# Krell Amp going bad - Options/Opinions



## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

So I'll just let the rabbit out now...

Purchased my showcase 7 12/14 and got it up and running 1/15. This entire year I've used it and it's worked out pretty good... no issues. Except that around 6 months after ownership I had one channel go bad.... so I moved to another and it lasted about 3 months and it went bad and now the final channel 7 is giving up on me. It was always rear left... so after the second bad channel went I thought it could of been the speaker cable and/or speaker itself... so what did I do? I swapped the left rear to channel 4 and put the right rear to channel 7... to eliminate that constant and now it's failing too.

Failing? whats it doing?... it's hissing/popping/crackling... be it with the amp off... or on... off?.. ya I said that... amp is turned of (red indication light on status) but still plugged into the wall and the speaker will crackle/pop. crazy right? Tis' true. So... My amp is a 2002 build. It's stouted in the "krell" industry that a re-cap could be expected after 10-15yrs of service... typically of course. This is because it's pure class A operation.... they run hot. It's not an A/B amp. don't believe me? Look at the thermal image of my rack... easy to see which the amp is. The top part of the vents on the amp cook at 115f while the heatsinks are at 160f. the front of the amp at top is at 95f as shown.

Now... my options

1. Fix it - (Krell $1500) complete recap
2. Fix it - (my uncle repair man said he'll do it as a favor for ~500-800) complete recap
3. Sell it for cheap and buy a XPA-7 or XPA-3 & XPA-2
4. Buy some other brand setup.... and/or monoblocks

The point is this. I'm not running the amp no more... too risky to cause any additional damage. I need something. Repair might take awhile... I love the sound... could come back sounding even better. At least the recap would theoretically give me another 10-15yrs of enjoyment. No reason to desire more of an amp. Although if I upgraded I'd want some more power for better headroom... or at least this is what my brain is telling me. How much could I offload the krell for? I see some w/ bad channels selling for 700-900 bucks. Lets just say I could net 500 bucks. I could use that toward the say XPA-7 and then I'm only out 800 bucks OR that is the 800 I need to get my current amp repaired but then my brain tells me... I'd be stuck with a revamped 125w/7 channel driven Krell amp.... vs... new more powerful and 5yr warranty Emotiva amp.

So... lets here it... options and opinions. Lets hear it.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I think I'd be leaning towards offloading it for what you can get. The name alone would generate interest and I think it would be a quick sale. I've been very satisfied with my Emotiva XPA-3 and it doesn't seem to run hot. Maybe also take a look at Outlaw.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Is your rack ventilated? airflow around all sides of that Krell would be a must.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

My vote is for your 2nd #2. Take the face plate off your Krell and prop in front. Manage to forget somehow that you did so. Be happy.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

JBrax said:


> I think I'd be leaning towards offloading it for what you can get. The name alone would generate interest and I think it would be a quick sale. I've been very satisfied with my Emotiva XPA-3 and it doesn't seem to run hot. Maybe also take a look at Outlaw.


I have 5" of clearance all around sides, back and top. It's in a standard allthread style audio rack and is not contained within any cubicle. It's basically venting to open air.

..yes it gets hot in my room with the krell and the projector lol.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

AudiocRaver said:


> My vote is for your 2nd #2. Take the face plate off your Krell and prop in front. Manage to forget somehow that you did so. Be happy.


ha... just saw my option list was not right. I'll fix that.

I really like the idea of emotiva amps. However I'm torn on the xpa-5 or xpa-7 to get the 2 channel performance but then I keep hearing about monoblocks being king and most like the XPA-1L for the front mains and the XPA-3 for the center/surrounds...

but if I were to do it I'd just get 5 of the XPA-1Ls and set it up like that. or dual XPA-1s and then the XPA-3

I seem to do a very even 50/50 on music/movies but I take my music listening much more critical than the movie sounding. The movies I just want to :hsd: so I just need a second sub but the music I'm very critical about.... and many say that monoblocks are the way to go for music.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Not sure caps would account for those symptoms. Regardless, if you like the amp, have Krell rebuild it. If you are in the mood for something else sell it as is and put the money you get toward something new. I would not let anyone but Krell touch it.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

That's a tough choice. The Krell has all the prestige factor, but, like you said...more power & the warranty...I think I'd be leaning towards the Emotiva. Respectable gear as well.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

My vote would be Emotvia or other,I'd hate to drop the cash to have another problem shortly after. I picked up three Marantz mono blocks a few years ago and they have been perfect.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

lcaillo said:


> Not sure caps would account for those symptoms. Regardless, if you like the amp, have Krell rebuild it. If you are in the mood for something else sell it as is and put the money you get toward something new. I would not let anyone but Krell touch it.


Updated information. I got a response back from krell on the issue. Here:



> Hi Jonathan,
> 
> The static/popping noises is usually is representative of a problem on the input circuit board section of the amplifier channel. The good news is we can repair these and make them (all the channels) as good as new again, and this unit will be good for years of more enjoyment in your system. If we can repair the existing input boards on the amp channels you are probably looking at a repair cost in the $600- range, give or take a few dollars either way.
> 
> ...


Not sure if that means a recap or something difference.... and by the wording it tells me it tells me they would make all of the channels as good as new. Not sure if it really means $600 or not. For that price it's worth fixing because thats how much loss I would be at selling.

Let me add another option. I present to you #5: fix krell.... buy dual XPA-1 for music. switch out for music and/or HT and also demo each to compare. /the end.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Talley said:


> Updated information. I got a response back from krell on the issue. Here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is most likely just what is needed to fix the problem. Send them another email to see what they say.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

$600 to repair the existing boards "IF" that is the problem seems really high. What if they can't repair the existing boards? Are you given some type of warranty on the repair? Who pays for shipping? I'm assuming you would be on the hook for that and understandably so. Let's just say you ship it to them and then you get a bad news estimate of say $1,000 for the repair and then you say nope and incur another charge to have it shipped back to you. I think I would still be inclined to sell it as is and go another route.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ron, I thought you might mention that he dump the krell and get into a couple pro amps! Lol. Partly due to Ron's suggestions, and also that I read every syllable written about pro vs boutique amps, I went pro. This was a great choice. Crown xls series, 2000 and up(Harmon group), and the Yamaha "P" series(I purchased a2500) were the 2 that I kept going back to. I can easily recommend the Yamaha p series. Effortless linear power with great driver control. Just .02


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Ron, I thought you might mention that he dump the krell and get into a couple pro amps! Lol. Partly due to Ron's suggestions, and also that I read every syllable written about pro vs boutique amps, I went pro. This was a great choice. Crown xls series, 2000 and up(Harmon group), and the Yamaha "P" series(I purchased a2500) were the 2 that I kept going back to. I can easily recommend the Yamaha p series. Effortless linear power with great driver control. Just .02
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would have, but I don't think Tally is interested in Pro amps.:T:T


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lol. I don't think he is either but maybe he just didn't think of it yet! Figured I could take my turn at the drum. 


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

ellisr63 said:


> I would have, but I don't think Tally is interested in Pro amps.:T:T


Did you not read option 4... ?


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> Lol. I don't think he is either but maybe he just didn't think of it yet! Figured I could take my turn at the drum.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have... I thought about buying 5 XLS1000 and running them in bridged moded for dedicated monoblocks and have 700w/ channel.

but who is to say that would be the better setup?... elaborate you must.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

And so I shall. I missed #4 too. Oops. 
I'll try to nutshell this due to time issues today. First, Google search any "pro amp vs. boutique" you can think of. There are lots of pretty good experiences. 2nd, what I recall of the xls series, the 1000,and 1500 didn't seem to provide the same driver control/finesse that the 2000/2500 series did. They also seemed to have a higher noise floor. Once the reviewer upgraded, those issues seemed to be gone. Is it better? In my system, it has been better. My 808, is by no means a slouch, and has always impressed me with its power, and transparency. Especially for an avr. My Yamaha pro amp has seemed to pull a sheet from over my speakers, and at the same time let my onkyo really take control of the rest. My room needs treatments in a bad way, but despite this, IMO, they system overall sounds great. Pro amps normally function in a different arena(punny?lol), but they still need to be accurate, powerful and run to no end. The sheet reference is still to subtle details, but that's what matters to me, and I've discovered linearity, and a little more clarity(despite my rooms attempts to ruin it) in all ranges of my music now. Hope that can help some. Gotta go...


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I really am not sure of a correct answer but I think I can zone in on a good answer.
I would have the Krell fixed by Krell and be happy. However, I know you have been wanting to get something bigger and better for a long time. I love my Emotiva amps and will keep them for a long time. I have not used a pro amp so I cannot comment on that direction. 

I can see that was about as helpful as asking the family dog, but I did make a choice kinda.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Wouldn't hurt for me to try it out.

I'll order 5 XLS-2500 so I can have 1500w per channel and treat em like monoblocks. Only 2k. 

ok... that is nuts I admit.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Admitting it is the first step!!! Congratulations. Lol


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> Admitting it is the first step!!! Congratulations. Lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For $420 shipped via prime... it wouldn't hurt to try. I have return w/ amazon. Thats 440w per channel. vs the krell at 125.

I wouldn't mind trying it and again cost isn't bad and if I don't like it I can return it. This is a good option. Just not sure how I would run these amps in a 5 channel system.

would I run 3 amps.... and just leave one channel not used on one amp? how would you guys do it.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Talley said:


> Wouldn't hurt for me to try it out.
> 
> I'll order 5 XLS-2500 so I can have 1500w per channel and treat em like monoblocks. Only 2k.
> 
> ok... that is nuts I admit.


You can get 3 Yamaha P2500s amps used for $600-700...250wpch(I used to run these until I ran out of rack space). If you want more power move to the P3500 or P7500 amp(750wpc). I use a p7500wpc for my sub. Yamaha P series pro amps are workhorses and have zero fan noise, plus they run forever, and are very efficient on the electric bill (most likely doesn't matter to you though as you had a power hungry space heater Krell  ).


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

ellisr63 said:


> You can get 3 Yamaha P2500s amps used for $600-700...250wpch(I used to run these until I ran out of rack space). If you want more power move to the P3500 or P7500 amp(750wpc). I use a p7500wpc for my sub. Yamaha P series pro amps are workhorses and have zero fan noise, plus they run forever, and are very efficient on the electric bill (most likely doesn't matter to you though as you had a power hungry space heater Krell  ).


eh... I'd need to move to balanced connections now. I see the expense moving up and I don't see the audio quality improving (cheap stab)


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Talley said:


> eh... I'd need to move to balanced connections now. I see the expense moving up and I don't see the audio quality improving (cheap stab)


MONOPRICE....and if that is too much for you I can send you my old XLR to RCA cables for the postage(so you don't need to change to all XLRs).


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I went rca to t/s.(10 bucks at my local music store, good guy discount)Plus I made some too for my bfd. The crowns accept RCA iirc. 


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

I still question the channels.... If I buy 3 amps... there will be one channel on one amp not being used. Does this cause an issue?


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Talley said:


> I still question the channels.... If I buy 3 amps... there will be one channel on one amp not being used. Does this cause an issue?


Nope...I had one channel free on my setup.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

ellisr63 said:


> Nope...I had one channel free on my setup.


Thank you... gives me something to think about. I'm definitely not against trying out a pro amp. Just much what I've read and experienced I beleive that amplification needs to be in the form of 550watts to achieve realistic peaks for music. Not saying that you need that much constant but headroom yes. When a drum stick hits a snare that instantaneous hit I've read takes that much power.

I simply want to get that much power and demo myself. Surely going from 125w to 600+ has to make some kind of sonic improvement?... and I want to see for myself. I don't care if it's a pro amp, Emotiva Krell etc... whatever.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Just buy some drums! J/K
Part of the appeal of pro amps is the price. Many people think they're ugly, but I don't mind. I also think top fuel dragsters are beautiful too. What?
I shopped emotiva, but I couldn't get there with my budget. Maybe you could try out a higher level crown or Yamaha on your mains just to see. Then add more as you go


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Talley (aka - Jonathan)

Sounds like your ready to jump into your HT for some critical listening or at least the talk around the water fountain indicates your leaning in that direction. Sounds like you've been wondering what 350-750watts will sound like in your room. I think everybody should know the answer to that question. Don't forget those in-home trials or a money back guarantee will include shipping charges for the privilege..., make sure to read the fine print for: restocking, handling and/or other possible fees associated... 

There's much to be said about having a choice piece of kit in your listening room connected to your system and especially connected to "your" speakers. Retailers just cannot duplicate that experience no matter what switches they flip. 

I'm not sure how to respond to the "Pro" concept. I'm not even sure I understand what the differences are between pro and consumer electronics except one is meant to be beat on 24/7 while the other is simply meant for listening. Can anyone help me out with this one?

Talley - before you do anything (just a suggestion here) I suggest you take a step back and look at the overall pic..., again. I don't believe you've fully answered your first question - whats happening with one channel after another popping? I've been thinking...

When is the last time you pulled the cover of any of your electronics and vacuumed..., I mean pulled the dust out of every little crevice, heat sink and vent hole top and bottom (I know you weren't playing with #0000 steel wool around your electronics but it makes you wonder doesn't it)? While we're at it how about all of your connection cables - are the screws all tight and and connected properly in place? Ac electricity is great but the 60cps tends to loosen screws etc. While your looking at connections - what about a continuity check on interconnects assoc with problem channels. Manufacturers do a nice job but for any number of reasons there are always a percentage of defective cables that never make it out the door and sometimes cables go bad after months of handling for any number of reasons again. I know you've considered or done most of what I'm mentioning but I believe you need to find an answer to this first and important question before moving on. You know you'll be happier knowing... you don't want to move the old problem into your new system.

FYI - I don't remember exactly when but years back when computer manufacturers promoted upgrading MoBo etc and electrical equipment of all types experienced that same surge in a ripple effect. You know people just had to have the newest tech. Anyway the demand for caps and other elec parts and pieces far exceeded supply. Well I think it was late 90's or early 2000's China was consistently shipping caps and other elec parts with extremely high percentages of defects and failures. I remember motherboard producers (all) had lots of issues and consumers weren't buying. I remember one of the biggest issues was with wet caps a part used in computers and most elec's due to its broad range of capacitance values and adaptability. I'm not suggesting your problem is with caps I tend to agree with Icaillo your symptoms don't necessarily sound like cap issues. A capacitor is pretty simple and usually it either works or it doesn't along with the circuit on-board. But I remember there were problems with the electrolyte caps (wet cap), that they were drying out..., I don't know what the signs and symptoms might sound like but if Krell Service didn't mention a typical problem with caps, I would focus my attention elsewhere.

Last thought - your SEEK heat signature I'll bet max's over the toroid trans but if its only 50-60 Celsius or 120-140 degrees Fahrenheit my computer processor has run between 50 and 60 Celsius for 2 years only shutting down to reboot - no issues here.

Whatever is going on with your Showcase 7 amp I'll bet the answer is really simple and you'll wonder what took you so long..., once you find the problem.

In the meantime how about attaching a price on the amp as is, so people like me can dream a little..., who knows someone may make an offer that ends your first question - not me, I'm just sayin'. 

Best Regards and Happy Listening


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Gregr said:


> Talley (aka - Jonathan)
> 
> Sounds like your ready to jump into your HT for some critical listening or at least the talk around the water fountain indicates your leaning in that direction. Sounds like you've been wondering what 350-750watts will sound like in your room. I think everybody should know the answer to that question. Don't forget those in-home trials or a money back guarantee will include shipping charges for the privilege..., make sure to read the fine print for: restocking, handling and/or other possible fees associated...
> 
> ...


I didn't use the thermal on the amp for this reason... I picked it up and after short use the app would keep failing and so I returned the unit. I'm looking into a Fluke or Flir dedicated unit. These were just a couple of photos I took when I first got it and then later I found out you could focus the lens so thats the reason it's blurry.

I did use an infared gun on the heat sinks and they were in the 150ish range.

I went through and moved cabling/interconnects around and it did it again on the last channel. My suspect is the original use of the amp potentially. I purchased from teh original owner and he used the amp as a 2channel amp. He bi-amped and never used channels 5/6/7. My uncle said this could be an issue with the age of the amp and those channels never been used and then I go and beat up on it with my surround. Not sure.

I think for sure I'm fixing the Krell. I'm very happy and the sound is great. I do want to "audition" something else. Either Emotiva and/or some kind of high power Pro amp. It's one of those things thats been bugging me from the start.... 125w vs 500-700w. Does that make a sonic improvement at normal listening levels (~85db). I want to find out.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

I would go for option 4 and purchase a Bryston whose' warrant would have covered this issue free of charge.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Telley,

For what its worth I'm just going to throw this out there. Sounds like your being methodical and logical and you've got some experienced help. Now, I don't want to step on any toes relative to our discussion..., if you catch my drift...

I am just a wee-bit uneasy with the unused channel hypothesis. I remember the days when the "Owners Manual or Users Manual" was referred to as the "Operators Manual" and in those days it was a must to connect both (all) channels before powering up your system, because..., I don't know something bad would happen I guess. My Dad repaired alot of TV's but there were a small percentage of stereo repairs as well and many under warranty - cause you can never get anyone to admit they plugged in one channel to listen to the game while they plugged in the second channel. LOL

But these days people leave channels untapped all the time. I mean, I can't tell you how different manufacturing engineers approached this issue in the beginning but how big of an issue can it be to drain DC power away from unused channels. In any case unused channels are not the concern as it once was - now I'm not assuming every manufacturer has compensated for the issue, cause you know how purists do not want to hear about additional circuits in sound systems.  I'm not sayin anybody is right or is wrong on that point - it just is what it is. I wouldn't slight anyone for taking every precaution to maintain the integrity of amplified sound even down to the nano level, it simply is one of the options... :bigsmile: I think there is much to consider about the cumulative effect of all Q aspects thru proper material science application...
Sorry, I'm starting to babble. 

I know I probably didn't help but there it is... my next step in this thought experiment.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

A couple of thoughts.

I also have some concern about the unused channels. The protection circuitry in a modern AVR does a pretty good job of keeping an unused channel stable and out of trouble - assuming it is working correctly. But having bad channels sitting there while the others are in use, that I would not do. Of course that is not your plan going forward. Having the popping problem progress to other channels is really troublesome, though. I would be concerned about Krell being able to back their repair. A long repair warranty would be a must for me to put trust in that repair.

I would never allow that to continue while connected to my precious speakers.

Pro amps - as pointed out, they are made to deliver specified power for hours and days on end, far beyond what we usually expect in a home listening environment. Nothing wrong with putting that kind of design durability in our systems. Spec-wise, it is common to see distortion specs of 1% max or 0.5% max, where audiophile grade amps are usually specified at lower max distortion levels, like 0.01% or something even lower. Not interested in arguing here about the validity or importance of those super-low distortion specs, just pointing out the difference. Also remember that those numbers apply at or just below clipping, so they do not necessarily apply to normal listening levels. In other words, a Crown spec might be 1% max distortion at max power, and it might well run at or below .01% in normal operation, they simply chose not to spec that number so they don't have to guarantee it.

I have heard pro amps in use in HT and 2-channel use and never found anything wrong with them, although I admit I have never A-B compared with non-pro. I will be able to do so soon, when I finish a quiet-fan mod on my own Crown amp, and will report any findings.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I would like to add a further $.02 to the great answers above and say that leaving some channels unused is not a problem these days. Most basic amps are modular and they only share a power supply. Some of the better amps, Bryston is a good example here, are designed to have a power supply for each individual channel but these are very expensive. 

Presently I use my Denon AVR as a pre/pro only and have set the AVR to act as a pre amp, thus leaving the amplification section idle always. Occasionally I hook the speakers to the AVR and reset the internals settings and voila, not a problem. Having the Krell fixed would settle your fears and wallet for many years to come. As to having more power, I think that you are presently getting 90% of what you need now and that last 10% will be kind of expensive. If we are to agree that an increase in 3db will double the draw on the power amp, one would have to move from your 125 wpc to 250 wpc to get that little extra and you may not even notice the difference.


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