# Where's the fun gone?



## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

Hi!

Some of you might have seen my name around here lately, I've been asking alot of setup and acoustics questions. I have alot of listening experience from being in the retail business and custom setup business for many years. I know the basics, the rules of thumb, have read the books and have the interest to learn more.

Anyway, I just need to get this off my chest.

I have an awesome system. Let's just start there. It's the most fun system I've heard in years. Had me up so many nights just playing music and watching movies. It's played well in many different locations too, so it's pretty room friendly. The wife enjoys it too, because it works, it's simple to operate, and it plays 'nice'. 

A few months back I moved it around a bit, got some new gear, tweaked it a bit, you guys know, right? And after some fiddling I had 'it'. The feeling you get when it just click into place. It went from very very good to totally awesome.
Naturally I stopped fiddling with it for a while, and actually enjoyed it. Invited friends over, kept going on how awesome my system was, and constantly blew people away with the sound. It was a good time.

Then I started thinking what could get better now. The room had some treatments, the positioning of the system was untraditional but looked good and sounded good. Image was nice, my screen was in a better position compared to listening position. Room access was better because the couch was a litte more out of the way. But then the 'what ifs' started to creep in. How good could it sound if it was in a more traditional position? What if I moved the couch like so? What if the sub was there? 
Then the turning point; Wonder how it measures?

Why, oh why did I go there?

Naturally, being assymetrical and setup more or less on a whim, it measured less than optimal. Way less. So I moved it again. And again. And measured again. And moved it. And measured. Set it up just right, by the book. Built corner traps and bought more room treatments. EQ'd again and again, with different house curves, crossovers, positions and phase. Measured meticulously every step. Analyzed and measured, moved and did it all again. It measured pretty nice by now, but there were always something wrong. A dip here, a peak there, asymmetry, comb filtering, reflections, long decay, the lot. Even if the frequency response looked good, other parts looked less optimal. If the impulse response looked good, the decay would be very bad. When decay looked good, I had bad reflections... In other words, it was an exercise in futility. I got frustrated. I kept at it, determined to get it right. Moved treatments, moved the system, took the screen and projector down, and cleared the room to be able to move stuff easier.

All this have been going on for two weeks now. I'm tired. I'm frustrated. I don't enjoy the system as much any more. In these two weeks I have not listened much to music at all. I've seen one movie. I really thought I had it last night. Had a nice position, sat down for a listen, and it sounded very good the first few tracks. Then it dawned on me that my system wasn't as sweet any more. It sounded harsh and fatiguing. My system isn't supposed to be fatiguing? It's supposed to invite me to turn the volume up, put on another CD, not look at the watch and wonder when I can go to bed. I turned the volume down because I thought it was too loud. I think that's the first time I've done that, ever. I sat there, playing music, not enjoying it. Music that I love, on the system that I love. And I wasn't enjoying it.

Something needs to be done. I'm setting everything back to the place it was when I last enjoyed it. Never mind measurements. Never mind the 'rules'. All that matters is enjoyment. I'm sure the new treatments will do their job with the system the way it was. I'm sure I'll enjoy it much more the way it was. 

Also, sadly, I'm sure the 'what ifs' will come creeping back at some point... *sigh*


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

I hear ya, and it's a bummer. 

I had 'it' as you say in the first room I had my system in about 5 years ago. Now the house I'm in has awful acoustics. So bad I bought new speakers and built new subs. I would have never done that in my old room back in the day because to me it sounded perfect. I learned a lot on the way though and got to try some new things. I would have never built and felt the power of LLT's if this room didn't stink so badly. So in the end I just chalk it up to experience and look forward to the day that I can build the perfect system in the perfect room. Good luck, I hope you can find something good from this experience


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## jerome (Apr 24, 2007)

What you describe happens to many. You have THE sound you really like then you what to try to get it a little bit better and you manage to damage/destroy this beautiful sound.

The most important for me is to enjoy what I have. As long as I am happy with the way my setup sounds then it doesn't matter how it measures. I'm currently happy with mine, even if the REW measurements are not so good.

There's no point of having a system you don't want to listen to just in an ugly room full of acoustic panels because it's going to measure better. Drop REW, the treatments, go back to how you liked your system to sound. You can always try to improve it later on ...


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## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

Yes, I will do this tonight, I think. The part that gets me a little this time is the bass and most of the sound now is AWESOME, and much better than I had. I somehow managed to get this fatiguing top-end that totally ruin it, though. Treatments are basically the same as before, only moved to accomodate the new positions. I might try to tweak it a little, to see if i can tame the high mids or whatever is causing the issue....

See, the tweakign gremlins strike again... I never learn....


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## OvalNut (Jul 18, 2006)

I hear what you're saying, and I am as guilty as anyone of overanalyzing my own unconventional room layout. In a large part, together with room treatments, positioning, EQ and attention to calibration, it has in the end been much more succcessful in recreating reality than I ever would have thought years ago when I first decided to put in a 'surround sound' system.

When I have given thought to changing things around I quickly bring to mind those times when people I know and trust have done that slack jawed "oh my gosh I hate you now because I'll never want to watch movies again at my place!!" exclamation. Or when a friend told me, "You'll never go to a movie theater again, will you?" That reminds me of my own amazement at how it sounds, and I generally end up at that point putting in a new movie I've rented, or a favorite concert DVD, and the gremlins go away.

And as to the unconventional layout aspect, to me, it's gotta be livable. Do you like theater seating for a more movies only feel, or do you use a variety of furniture for a more family room feel? The sweetspot in my room is more of a general area of the sectional couch in my HT. When I want all the stars to align, I sit there. Other times, I can stretch out and maybe catch a nap during a long race at Michigan on a Sunday afternoon ..... :yawn:


Tim
:drive:


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

This happens to most of us ... because we wan't to try to get the best of our systems :duh:

We want to do everything by the book, follow rules, recommendations, etc.... and we forget the most important thing: "Enjoy what we have" ... sometimes we have to use the set up that we enjoy the most, even if you're breaking rules ... like me (look at the picture and see what I'm doing ... is wrong, but I enjoy the movies)


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

Your brain is playing tricks on your ears and maybe you've tortured your ears too much lately, it doesn't take much you know. When your ears need a rest they let you know by bringing on a slight bit of "this is all ****" and I don't give a _ _ _ _! A mild case of the "inner ear canal depressions". 
Relax take a deep breath. Take a few days off. Mix in a couple days where you take 2 1/2 hour walks and freeze your balls off. Give your other three senses, taste, touch, and smell, a turn at experiencing the same intensity you've been assaulting your sight and hearing with. In a short while you'll be glad to be back at it, making the "system" sound greater than it ever has!


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

You're not going to be able to get everything perfect no matter what you do. If that's what you're looking for, rent out an anechoic chamber or somehow set it up outside and tell all the bugs and birds to stop making noise.


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## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

Yeah, I know.

Last night I set everything up the way it was, did two measurements to EQ my sub for that location, and make sure I had phase right, and put on a movie. Oh joy!, the system disappeared again. It was me and the movie. Great stuff, I'm not moving it again!


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## jerome (Apr 24, 2007)

atledreier said:


> Last night I set everything up the way it was, did two measurements to EQ my sub for that location, and make sure I had phase right, and put on a movie. Oh joy!, the system disappeared again. It was me and the movie. Great stuff, I'm not moving it again!


Could you post your REW results and placement modifications in your calibration thread? It's interesting to see what kind of differences make you like it.


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## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

I will once I set my laptop up again. I didn't save the measurements from the last run, I wanted to watch a movie and did a quick and dirty EQ only. 

My calibration thread does have some measurements as the system is now. Not exactly the same, but pretty close.

There is also more extensive measurements in this thread.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

atledreier said:


> Yeah, I know.
> 
> Last night I set everything up the way it was, did two measurements to EQ my sub for that location, and make sure I had phase right, and put on a movie. Oh joy!, the system disappeared again. It was me and the movie. Great stuff, I'm not moving it again!


Famous last words!! :bigsmile:
That's what I said to myself a few days ago when my system sounded just perfect..
I thought "that's it, I'm not going to touch it again, not even if the next movie I play doesn't sound as good"...
Last night I thought while I was watching a movie "I might just move that sub a bit"...:unbelievable:
It's like an incurable disease..you're stuck with it for the rest of your life...

But good advice has been given...take a short break from it and clear your head...Works wonders for me..


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## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

I just gotta smile of myself here.... I rented a movie last night, on my cable company's VoD service. Decent quality, but ProLogic stereo... I had very little in the way of LFE there. The last movie I watched didn't have much punch either. So now I'm thinking if it's the movies I've watched that has little punch, or if my system is wimpier than it used to. I'm gonna go put on 'jurassic Lunch' to get some perspective on things... :hissyfit:


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

I think this is where a lot of us get caught out...
We expect ALL movies to sound just the same as the thumping Jurassic parks or thundering War of the Worlds..and so immediately suspect something is wrong with our setup if we don't hear similar sounds with the next movie we buy or rent..

What I do now if I get to that stage of questioning the performance of my system, is to put on a DVD that I know every bit of impact sound (having watched it numerous times) and then I can determine if it's my system or just the DVD I was previously playing..
Knowing a DVD's sound quality that your very familiar with, is also very helpful in evaluating whether any adjustment you've just made, is any better or not..


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

You know, I did a good deal of messing around with speaker positions and went by the numbers in my system and it doesnt sound very good at all.

Imagine how I feel when I hear someone's system who has lower quality gear and put no thought into the room and it sounds better than mine!

I'd move my speakers around more if they weren't spiked and my cables were longer. Pls there are too many of them, I'm pretty sure that until I get some big time treatments going, it's as good as it's gonna get.


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## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

Yeah, I've got so many cables running around the room, and not that I've moved stuff around for weeks they are jumbled like you wouldn't believe. 

And I haven't watchen any of my 'reference' movies at my 'reference' level yet, so I'm not gonna make any changes before then. I've been at 'wife' level all weekend. It's a good thing she wants to watch a movie with me, though. She's my unbiased 'sounds good' reference.


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## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

*By golly, I think I nailed it!*

Yay!

Think I might have nailed it, finally! Been moving around again today, and now it not only measure good, the sound is lifted to a whole new level. And that's not a clichê either! :yay:

Ended up with listening position centered in the width of the room, and at the 1/3 of the length from the rear wall (176cm in my case). The speakers are (center of front baffle) 88cm from the front wall and 73cm from the side. I put 4" acoustic panel behind and to the side, and floor to ceiling corner traps. The traps have a 2' face, but I pulled them 4" from the wall so they create a seamless face with the acoustics panels. Then some 1,5" acoustics panels in the 1st reflection points of the side walls, and one centered on the rear wall.

I have some more 4" panels that I will make more corner traps out of, and also maybe try to kill the 1st reflections of the ceiling.

The sound is balanced now, and feel very 'fast'. My mid-bass is much smoother than it was, and also more even with the rest of the band. My subwoofer follow my target curve to +-2dB with only 3 filters, and a small boost at 70Hz. I have a 'hump' from my fronts from 80-100Hz, but it's not so bad, and it adds a little punch. The mids and highs are awesome. So much more presense and much better soundstage. This is what my system was supposed to sound like! :clap:

Ok, I won't post any more, I'm off to play very much music tonight! Gonna be a long, long night! :jump:


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## Bob_99 (May 8, 2006)

Been there!
Done that!
Have the 'T' shirt!

I started out with a dinky color TV and wanted something decent to watch the extended version of "The Lord of The Rings". I started out slowly and now I'm at at a point where my system sounds fantastic but I still do the 'what if' thing. IMO, it's never fun though unless you take the time to enjoy what you have.

Bob


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

Good to hear that you finally got it working to your satisfaction...
As has been said before..Acoustic treatments can totally change the sound characteristics of a room, to the extent that it can sound like you've just upgraded your speakers...and for just a few dollars.
But also re-positioning the sub can have a dramatic affect on low frequency reproduction..Even moving it just a few inches, as I found out the other night..

So I guess that this will be the end of your tweaking!!? :whistling: :bigsmile:


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## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

Prof. said:


> So I guess that this will be the end of your tweaking!!? :whistling: :bigsmile:


:bigsmile: raying:

Probably won't be long before I'm :wits-end: :mooooh: :crying: again.

I'm going to reposition my screen, projector, tv, center channel and amplifier rack today. I'll use the opportunity to clean up the mess of cables that have accumulated behind the racks while I'm at it. I'll rearrange it so that my digital coax cable from my mediaserver can go direct to my preamp as well as the wireless keyboard's USB cable, so I can use my digital library again. Much more convenient than conventional CDs. THEN I'll start enjoying som music. By then the kids will probably be asleep, though.... That means 80dB peaks tops... :sad:


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Not only your mind can tricks on you but also the seasons. I enjoy audio best during the summer months. During the cold seasons my body just gets dry and irritated and I have to use saline for my sinuses. I have been through lots of tweaking over the years and it is the one that always work for me without fatigue, breaking any rules, and it really improves my system.:bigsmile:


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

atledreier said:


> :bigsmile: raying:
> 
> Probably won't be long before I'm :wits-end: :mooooh: :crying: again.
> 
> I'm going to reposition my screen, projector, tv, center channel and amplifier rack today. I'll use the opportunity to clean up the mess of cables that have accumulated behind the racks while I'm at it. I'll rearrange it so that my digital coax cable from my mediaserver can go direct to my preamp as well as the wireless keyboard's USB cable, so I can use my digital library again. Much more convenient than conventional CDs. THEN I'll start enjoying som music. By then the kids will probably be asleep, though.... That means 80dB peaks tops... :sad:


Actually, that can be a very satisfying job, getting all the cables tidied up..
I know that when ever I pulled out my equipment rack, it was a total mess of wires and made me shudder every time I looked at it..:crying:
One day I decided to do something about it, and spent an afternoon separating and tying up cables and making it look a lot neater..
Now it's a pleasure when ever I have to pull out the rack..:bigsmile:

Good luck with your clean up..


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

You know what, tonight I had a few people over for the superbowl and demonstrated a few CD's and DVD's to interested friends. On the whole everybody had a great time and enjoyed the system. Nobody picked it apart and they were all amazed. Where's the fun gone? It's still here and always has been!


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## Bob_99 (May 8, 2006)

After thinking about this over the weekend, and as much as I enjoy listening to my system plus the fact that everything I've done to this point has resulted in incremental improvements (some more than others others), I've come to the conclusion that I also very much enjoy the tweaking. So, next step: I'm taking a real hard look at building an IB subwoofer. From everything that I've read, it sounds great and would be a real solution to the difficulty I would have in placing a second sub.

Bob


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## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

I also greatly enjoy the tweaking, but lately I haven't got better results from my tweaking. Maybe this is as good as this room gets. I'm enjoying the system, I just know it could do more in a better room. I'm building a new house in a year or two, so I guess I'll have to wait for that.


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