# Do I need an amp for my speakers?



## mrdisaster24

Hey guys,

Need to know if I need to buy an amplifier for my speaker set up. Just to give you an idea of what I have right now:

Onkyo NR609
*All Speakers are Def Tech
2 BP8060st floors
1 CS8060HD (center)
4 Front Back/Surround (Pro Cinema 600 series)
1 ProCinema 600 series subwoofer

I just moved to a 7.1 setup by adding in the floors and updating my center channel. Also if I do need an amp, do you have suggestions on which to buy?

thanks for the help


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## DeltaDube

mrdisaster24 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Need to know if I need to buy an amplifier for my speaker set up. Just to give you an idea of what I have right now:
> 
> Onkyo NR609
> *All Speakers are Def Tech
> 2 BP8060st floors
> 1 CS8060HD (center)
> 4 Front Back/Surround (Pro Cinema 600 series)
> 1 ProCinema 600 series subwoofer
> 
> I just moved to a 7.1 setup by adding in the floors and updating my center channel. Also if I do need an amp, do you have suggestions on which to buy?
> 
> thanks for the help


the more power the better! yes you need much more.. if you want great sound quality and dynamics..

head room and power is one of the main tickets for great sound..

cheers


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## mrdisaster24

So after doing some research looks like I can't connect an amp to the onkyo TX-NR609. Does anyone have any other ideas? (other than switching out the receiver)


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## DeltaDube

mrdisaster24 said:


> So after doing some research looks like I can't connect an amp to the onkyo TX-NR609. Does anyone have any other ideas? (other than switching out the receiver)


head over to emotiva and check out a umc 200 or waite for the xmc 1... 

sell the nr609.. 

cheers


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## hjones4841

The answer to the question about needing an amp is this: Does your system play loud enough as-is? If so, then spending the money for an external amp is not worth it. Yes, you will get some benefit in dynamics, but consider this: The ear is a logarithmic "device." Most people can barely hear 3 db of volume difference, but that represents twice the amp power: 100 watts to 200 watts. For a system to sound twice as loud to the ear requires a 10 db increase, or 10 times the power: 100 watts to 1000 watts.

That said, there is a way to add an amp to your existing receiver. Search for a line level converter that will connect to your receiver speaker connections and provide RCA jacks at line level for driving an external amp. I know that they used to be available, but I haven't checked in a long time. Carver made one long ago, so maybe you could find one on ebay. The ones made for car stereos may work as well, but they may not be able to handle the receiver's output.

The other option, of course, is to replace the receiver with one with preamp outputs. To get that will put you into the mid to upper price range.


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## mrdisaster24

hjones4841 said:


> The answer to the question about needing an amp is this: Does your system play loud enough as-is? If so, then spending the money for an external amp is not worth it. Yes, you will get some benefit in dynamics, but consider this: The ear is a logarithmic "device." Most people can barely hear 3 db of volume difference, but that represents twice the amp power: 100 watts to 200 watts. For a system to sound twice as loud to the ear requires a 10 db increase, or 10 times the power: 100 watts to 1000 watts.
> 
> That said, there is a way to add an amp to your existing receiver. Search for a line level converter that will connect to your receiver speaker connections and provide RCA jacks at line level for driving an external amp. I know that they used to be available, but I haven't checked in a long time. Carver made one long ago, so maybe you could find one on ebay. The ones made for car stereos may work as well, but they may not be able to handle the receiver's output.
> 
> The other option, of course, is to replace the receiver with one with preamp outputs. To get that will put you into the mid to upper price range.


Thanks for the insight!


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## DeltaDube

hjones4841 said:


> The answer to the question about needing an amp is this: Does your system play loud enough as-is? If so, then spending the money for an external amp is not worth it. Yes, you will get some benefit in dynamics, but consider this: The ear is a logarithmic "device." Most people can barely hear 3 db of volume difference, but that represents twice the amp power: 100 watts to 200 watts. For a system to sound twice as loud to the ear requires a 10 db increase, or 10 times the power: 100 watts to 1000 watts.
> 
> That said, there is a way to add an amp to your existing receiver. Search for a line level converter that will connect to your receiver speaker connections and provide RCA jacks at line level for driving an external amp. I know that they used to be available, but I haven't checked in a long time. Carver made one long ago, so maybe you could find one on ebay. The ones made for car stereos may work as well, but they may not be able to handle the receiver's output.
> 
> The other option, of course, is to replace the receiver with one with preamp outputs. To get that will put you into the mid to upper price range.



i think you miss the point about the sound quality improvements you get with extra power ...

its not just 10 db louder if you get a 1000w amp... it sound so much better ... faster smoooother cleaner
clearer fantastically better......   

your being very text book right but not real world right!!!!! until you hear what your missing you will
never know... 

cheers


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## tonyvdb

DeltaDube said:


> the more power the better! yes you need much more.. if you want great sound quality and dynamics..
> 
> head room and power is one of the main tickets for great sound..
> 
> cheers


There is no reason he needs an amp. The BP8060's have built in amps for the bass radiators and the rest of the speakers are 92db efficient. The Onkyo 609 was bench tested to do better than 90 Watts per channel all channels driven and it would have no issues driving all his speakers to reference levels without distortion.


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## nova

Do you "need" an amp? Probably not. Would an amp be beneficial? Possibly... I think Tony's reply is spot on but depending upon your room and listening habits an amp might help. I do think in your case that room treatments would likely be a better investment than an amp.


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## DeltaDube

tonyvdb said:


> There is no reason he needs an amp. The BP8060's have built in amps for the bass radiators and the rest of the speakers are 92db efficient. The Onkyo 609 was bench tested to do better than 90 Watts per channel all channels driven and it would have no issues driving all his speakers to reference levels without distortion.


i would bet my life the onkyo 609 is not 90 wpc all channels driven all the time ..

you be luck if its 2 channels at 90 wpc in stereo and about 55 wpc in movie mode..

plus it gets as hot as my toaster too i bet!!!

your a text book audio guy i can tell.. have you ever heard some power into decent speakers and how much
better it is over any avr..? 

cheers..


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## lcaillo

My 709 is rated 110 w with two channels driven. Many would say that my Rotel RB-965 rated at 100 w all channels driven would be a better amp and would sound better. Frankly, I cannot tell much difference. I think it might make a difference on some speakers, but the OP is using Def Techs, which are typically pretty efficient.

I'd test the actual output myself, but my old dummy loads are only going to let me test 4 channels driven at once, but it might still be interesting to do. With music it is unlikely to reach anywhere near the current demands of all channels driven. Loading the center, left, and right and one surround channel and driving sine wave to max should be harder than anything one would do with actual music programming.


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## tonyvdb

DeltaDube said:


> i would bet my life the onkyo 609 is not 90 wpc all channels driven all the time ..
> 
> you be luck if its 2 channels at 90 wpc in stereo and about 55 wpc in movie mode..


Actual bench tests of the 609 here:
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 81.0 watts
1% distortion at 95.1 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 77.7 watts
1% distortion at 88.9 watts 

Very respectable numbers considering its not even a mid tear receiver..


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## chashint

mrdisaster24 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Need to know if I need to buy an amplifier for my speaker set up. Just to give you an idea of what I have right now:
> 
> Onkyo NR609
> *All Speakers are Def Tech
> 2 BP8060st floors
> 1 CS8060HD (center)
> 4 Front Back/Surround (Pro Cinema 600 series)
> 1 ProCinema 600 series subwoofer
> 
> I just moved to a 7.1 setup by adding in the floors and updating my center channel. Also if I do need an amp, do you have suggestions on which to buy?
> thanks for the help


With the speakers you have it is unlikely that you are stressing the AVR.

Is there something you think is lacking with the sound quality ?


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## B- one

Do you know anybody you could borrow a setup from? Then you can tell for sure if its better and if its better enough to justify the added expense of upgrading.


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## DeltaDube

tonyvdb said:


> Actual bench tests of the 609 here:
> Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
> 0.1% distortion at 81.0 watts
> 1% distortion at 95.1 watts
> 
> Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
> 0.1% distortion at 77.7 watts
> 1% distortion at 88.9 watts
> 
> Very respectable numbers considering its not even a mid tear receiver..


not even close to 90 wpc all channels driven eh... mis leading marketing by all the avr co very deceptive..

cheers


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## DeltaDube

chashint said:


> With the speakers you have it is unlikely that you are stressing the AVR.
> 
> Is there something you think is lacking with the sound quality ?


no power equals low dynamic flat sounding systems..

you need lots of headroom power for the dynamic spikes

spikes can draw a 1000 watts of power for a milli sec avr do not campare to amps..

drum kicks etc.. can draw enormous amounts of instantanous power that avrs do not ave the 
capacitance to deliever..

cheers


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## tonyvdb

DeltaDube said:


> not even close to 90 wpc all channels driven eh... mis leading marketing by all the avr co very deceptive..


It takes double the power to increase the speaker volume 3db


> drum kicks etc.. can draw enormous amounts of instantanous power that avrs do not ave the
> capacitance to deliever


Amps are very capable of handling those momentary "spikes" its continuous that thay "may" struggle with.
Thats why people use subs, the receiver does not even see that load.


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## DeltaDube

tonyvdb said:


> It takes double the power to increase the speaker volume 3db
> 
> Thats why people use subs, the receiver does not even see that load.


 tony i think you got a canned answer for everything.. 

2 channel stereo with subs is not that good imho.. 

now does your sub play cymbals well too.. with weak avrs you hear a little tap

but with the big amps you hear em ring out like they should..

like i said you will never know what your missing until you plug in da power! 

cheers


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## tonyvdb

Nothing "canned" about my answers at all. 
If you like 2 channel listening without a sub thats your choice but there is hardly any resonable priced speakers out there that can reproduce full frequency without a drop of more than 3db at or below 30Hz and with today's good recordings there is plenty of information below that. Besides this thread is not talking about 2 channel listening.
I know what good speakers sound like and own some. I run a dedicated amp only on the mains for piece of mind only as I have run them on the receivers amps as well and did not hear any difference at all. Jazz is one of my most favorite types of music and have many high quality recordings so I do know what cymbals and other instruments should sound like.


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## lcaillo

DeltaDube said:


> not even close to 90 wpc all channels driven eh... mis leading marketing by all the avr co very deceptive..
> 
> cheers


Can you post an example of where Onkyo claims 90w/ch all channels driven? Don't they specify two channels driven on their AVRs?

You are welcome to your opinion on the need for extra power. Please check your facts about what manufacturers claim. I agree that marketing is confusing and misleading in many cases, but you are arguing that on the suggestion that the Onkyo does not do what they claim it does. This is not fair. If you read the specs and the way that they are qualified, you can get a pretty good idea of the capability of an amp or AVR in many cases. Some are more misleading than others. Onkyo, certainly no more so than others.


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## lcaillo

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