# Power consumption of av receivers



## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I have seen this on another forum and no one answered the question it goes as follows 

Pioneer Vsx-21txh power consumption 400 watts with 110wpc 

Denon 2310ci power consumption 708 watts with 105wpc

Onkyo TX-SR707 power consumption 720 watts with 100wpc

now my question is it seems as power consumption goes up watts per channel go down, pioneer seems to get more wpc with less power consumption are the pioneer numbers possible or are the other 2 just inefficient. any thoughts on this.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Some Pioneer receivers are using a new amplifier called ICE basically they use a digital amp. Some like the sound some do not. The others are still fairly close in power usage/watts.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

to my understanding this pioneer doesn't use the ICE amps those are reserved for their higher end models.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

There can be some more efficient designs but I would say that the receiver simply does not have as much omph as the others. The power has to come from somewhere.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

So is it possible that it can't deliver the 110wpc as promised.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The best thing to do is check out a good review site on the receivers, some will do bench tests to see what they really output all channels driven. Most only put out half of what they are rated for with all 7 channels going Onkyo is an exception. There mid to upper end receivers are able to do much better.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I have tried to find reviews of the pioneer vsx-21txh can't find any only the higher end models seem to have reviews right now. it seems to me like we are the only 2 on this forum so far today because I haven't heard from anyone else on either of the 2 topics I have posted today I would like have more people join in on the fun.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

The 400W cannot be continous with all 7 channels driven to 110W. It is simply not possible.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I have gone to the pioneer website and looked at specs this what they say 
Surround Power 110wx7(20Hz-20kHz,.09% THD @ 8 ohms, All Channels Driven) 
and if you look at page 119 of the manual same specs with the words Continuous average power output of 110w*per channel
*measured pursuant FTC trade regulation rule on Power Claims for Amplifiers 
have no ideal what that means


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

The power output specs may well be continuous power, but there is simply no way that it can output 770W while consuming 400W continuously. The power consumption is either a mistake or made with different conditions than the output specification.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

So if we do the math,say 400w divide that by 7 it's more like 57.142857wpc this seems possible.So how did this receiver get THX certified select2 plus with these numbers when there are countless other receivers that have better real world numbers then this. IMO there should be a better standard the the one the FTC has especially when it comes to AV receivers no more loopholes. This way if they claim our receiver puts out x amount wpc it's a real world number not test tones at x amount of Hz or kHz but with music or movies because that's what it is used for by the consumer. There has be a better way of doing this. If the power consumption specs that are in the manual and on the back of the receiver is a mistake that's a pretty big mistake to miss.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

This is one reason some receiver manufacturers dont even bother getting THX certification as there seems to be a very wide margin of certified ratings given to some models that should not get them. The Onkyo 806 was a perfect example of "how could it have gotten a THX ultra 2 rating" when it could not even drive a 4 ohm load without distortion. The 805 was a solid receiver and even surprised many reviewers who did very in depth bench tests. the 806 its replacement failed very badly yet still got the certification. Maybe someone just assumed that it was the same as the 805 and turned there head or some under the table cash was exchanged who knows. 
HK under rates there receivers and shows real numbers under load Sony on the other hand over rates what they can actually do. Its really a buyer beware and do your homework before you buy.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

This is most unfortunate because there a lot of newcomers to HT who won't do their homework and get burned in the process because there isn't a clear standard. HK seems to be doing it right but I know a lot of people who look at these numbers and say that's enough power and end up getting HITB because it claims it puts out 100wpc when it only consumes 90w.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ares said:


> This is most unfortunate because there a lot of newcomers to HT who won't do their homework and get burned in the process because there isn't a clear standard.


Exactly, This is too bad and that is why Sonnie and a few other individuals created the Shack so that we could give out the proper information its just a shame that more people dont use the internet to their advantage before making a purchase.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

It is great thing I came across this site during my research, I was going to buy that pioneer but had a tough time finding reviews on it the I came across that question in another forum and said to myself how come nobody is addressing it, so I looked at other forums to post it myself and decided on this one and without fail it was addressed. My hope is that the OP from the other forum comes across these postings to see that his or her question was answered. Then he or she can join us here on the Shack.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Ares said:


> So if we do the math,say 400w divide that by 7 it's more like 57.142857wpc this seems possible.So how did this receiver get THX certified select2 plus with these numbers when there are countless other receivers that have better real world numbers then this. IMO there should be a better standard the the one the FTC has especially when it comes to AV receivers no more loopholes. This way if they claim our receiver puts out x amount wpc it's a real world number not test tones at x amount of Hz or kHz but with music or movies because that's what it is used for by the consumer. There has be a better way of doing this. If the power consumption specs that are in the manual and on the back of the receiver is a mistake that's a pretty big mistake to miss.


You may be confusing output power with power consumption. Power consumption is what the unit uses from the a.c. supply. Power output is what is available to drive the speakers. A perfectly efficient amp would consume the same power that is output, but there are no perfect amps. Actual power consumption, however, is usually far less than the total output power that the unit is capable of producing, due to the dynamic nature of music and movie sound and the fact that most users never use anywhere close to the continuous power that the unit is rated for. The 400w number is obviously a mistake, or perhaps was intended to be a typical consumption value. Even then it would likely be a por estimate.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

My question is how can a receiver consume 400w and be able output 110wpcx7 the math doesn't add up.unless there is something I am missing please explain.


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## ccdoggy (Jan 15, 2007)

The explanation is that the 110 watt rating is a lie. I might guess that they got that number only driving one channel at say 1Khz. that power consumption number is its rating for its actual use. it is legally required to be its actual max power consumption. used for wiring, cabling, and what not to ensure the connections are powerful enough.

So legally that number is right, meaning the 110 cannot be correct. 

My guess on the original question (ratio of input power vs output power) is that receivers with higher input power give more honest and legit output power numbers.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Steve thank you, this is what I was trying to understand personally I thought the numbers were bogus the math made no sense and I went to public school. In my mind there is noway it could put out more power then it was taking in. P.S. And may your receiver watts always be plentiful.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Ares said:


> My question is how can a receiver consume 400w and be able output 110wpcx7 the math doesn't add up.unless there is something I am missing please explain.


Your question was answered. It cannot. Either the power output is not continuous at 110w x 7 channels, or the 400w power consumption is a mistake.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Here is another way to look at it.
Think of the output power as being stored in batteries (capacitors) most of the time the caps are almost fully charged its when the big explosion happens thats when your receiver is drained of the power it has stored. So in reality it can output more for a very short duration than its intake power rating but when I say short I mean less than 2 seconds before distortion will happen. 
Generally a receiver over the $1000 range will do a much better job of output with all channels driven than a receiver below $800. If it only weighs 30lbs or less dont expect much. The best thing to do when shopping for a receiver is get the very best one you can afford even if it means going over budget. You get what you pay for.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks to all you guys for taking the time to answering the question. It was enlightening, just wish manufactures were more truthful with their specs.


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## ccdoggy (Jan 15, 2007)

Ares said:


> Thanks to all you guys for taking the time to answering the question. It was enlightening, just wish manufactures were more truthful with their specs.


If only they would be honest and use real testing procedures that are not extremely in their favor.

I think that one thing that feeds these 'faked' output numbers is that very few actually understand how much power you need to get a spirited output from speakers. they are just looking for the receivers with larger outputs and so they must be better, and they are happy with it because typically the speakers they use are moderately efficient and get loud enough for them on whatever power its putting out (or the distortion gets to be so much that they have to turn it down and perceive it as being too loud for their ears.)


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Well that will never happen unless we as the consumer demand it, I talking about the hardcore HT guys & gals (can't leave out the gals or I'll letters about it) not john public for who any old system will do. We could try talking to them,that won't work so we need to explain it in a way they understand, give us honest specs or NO CASH, then they will get it or government can step in and demand it but short of all that people have to do there homework and question everything. The one thing I learned most of all is to look at the power consumption to see if it is possible in regards to the watts per channel.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ares said:


> The one thing I learned most of all is to look at the power consumption to see if it is possible in regards to the watts per channel.


The weight of a receiver is a real tell tale sign of how good it will do even more than the power consumption. If its less than 40lbs and your looking at at receiver with a rating of more than 100watts per ch walk away.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks Tony, I knew there was something else missing when I wrote that.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

All right. The power consumption rating on the back of power amps, receivers, etc., does not have anything to do with true watts RMS output. It is only what it said it is, a maximum power consumption from your wall inlet taken by the ditto electronics.

Some type of amps (class A, B, A/B, D, G, H, etc.) have different degree of efficiency.

Some tube amps will consume (draw) a lot of power (watts or amps) from the wall outlet, and will only deliver 2 watts of true output at the most into your speakers!

And some other type of transistor amps, class D (digital or ICE amp for example), will consume (power consumption) much less than others (class A for example), and deliver huge amouts of true RMS watts in all their channels (Pioneer Elite SC-09TX is a good example).

What comes in is not necessarely what goes out, as you can see now.
The power consumption figure on the back of electronics is becoming more and more superficial as of power output is concern.

Your Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH receiver (class A/B) with 400 watts power consumption figure, is actually delivering about 70 watts RMS into 8-ohm loads at 1khz, with about 1% THD (established clipping THD point) into all seven channels driven continuously (estimation). That is pretty good if you ask me. And there is no way that in true reality, your seven channels will be driven like that from any film soundtracks.
Now, if you like using seven-channel stereo audio mode, then yes, they will be driven at full capability, but that power is mainly on peaks, not constant in actual life.
And if your speakers are very efficient (Klipsch for example), you will need only a couple watts at most to obtain a pretty loud volume level.

* Hope this gives you more understanding.

** Different manufacturers used different values for their power consumption figures, as you probably noticed. Denon, Onkyo, Marantz,... for example used A (Amps). Pioneer, Yamaha,... used Watts. And Yamaha even adds VA. In general...

*** Last, it is the same thing with humans; some people consume a lot less energy to produce more performance. Others consume a lot, and provide almost nothing. The main difference here, is that with humans, the power consumption is not indicated in their backs. :bigsmile: The true ratings are indicated on their hearts and minds, the true measure of the power build.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

This is good to know and thank you for taking the time to explain it, all these numbers make it a little confusing when you don't have enough knowledge on this matter. This is way I posted this ? so people like yourself could share your knowledge with me and others like me who don't have a clue once again thank you.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Class A/B is the kind of amp most receivers in the low to medium price range use. Not the most efficient design but its the least expensive to make. A/B amps simply dont use the power very well and alot of it is given off as heat.
You can look here if your intrested in learning some more about the different kinds of amplifiers.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks Tony, I like the info that you guys give me the more I know the less chance these retailers have to take me for a ride.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Ok maybe I should find another hobby like stamp collecting or baseball cards (just kiddin) now Bob said that the pioneer is an A/B amp got that part I took another look at their website it says 
Amplifier Design: A.D. Energy? 
does this mean it's an A/D amp? is it possible? see this is why I am a little confuse the info Tony linked me to never said anything about this.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Hi T,

I've been following you here and at another site. I read what you ask, and what people responded.
This is a question that a lot of people are wondering about. So I just decided to give my personal output to a very general matter.

I even search for the true power figures (7-channel power output) from the three receivers that you mentioned, but there were no reviews on these particular three models. Still, I'm quite familiar to their predecessors, so I got a pretty good idea od their true power capabilities. Out of the three you mentioned, they are very similar in their total power output, and I will be hard pressed to pich one over the other one on that aspect. In the end it comes down more to the features you like most trhat you can truly benefit from, in your own system. 
And as for their sound quality, here also, it will be almost futile to pick one over the other one.
But if your speakers are of high quality, with revealing high resolution, then you might perceive better the differences in their tonal character.
Personally, I try to match my amp or receiver to my speakers according to my personal taste.
When I was younger, I was after a very smooth sound, because my hearing was much better.
Now that I'm older & wiser, I'm more into a more open sound, with clear highs and higher resolution all acroos the range. My hearing is not as good anymore, so I have to compensate for that loss, right?

* Moral of the story is that I try to share my own experience according to what I believe others are after. Age is one of the aspect of this puzzle, because it has a great deal to do with the capability of hearing in people. The second aspect is the tonal character of speakers in use. And third is the room in where those speakers are set.
All my life, I experiment at home with different electronics, different speakers, rooms, different speaker's positioning, I listened extensively, at dealer's stores too with all what they had, I read a lot too, and I pick all my gear with these clues that I found.

Audio is a secret journey, that is very personal to each one of us. Because we are all different with various preferences in our sound, and our rooms, speakers, budgets, etc., are different too.
The very best advice I can give to new comers that are after a certain quality of sound with the requisite power for their rooms and speakers, is to experiment at home, try different variables, go to dealer's stores, getting acquainted with their gear, experience, listen to their stuff, getting to know them, becoming friends, reading the right stuff, from the right places, magazines, reviewers with objective experience, honest ones (not bias), knowing their own rooms and the gear they use, becoming familiar with the language they use, finding the real value (monetary) in products, finding the best dealers with the best deals and customer services, and all the stuff you can find on the internet by the smartest people with true honesty and objectivity in their judgement and recommendation.

Most people don't take the time or to listen to people's questions, or to respond to them with what it takes to really enrich them. They rather satisfied themselves first, and feel they have found what it takes to be truly satisfied, but only in their own world. They often forget what others are truly in search of. But, there are a few people out there with genuine and intelligent knowledge, that can be easily comprehend by the normal people. 

In the end your best advisor is always yourself, and for obvious reasons.
Other people can help you to become a better judge in your audio search, but they cannot make the final decision for you. And that's why this hobby is quite personal and powerful, right?

Everyone loves music & movies, but not everyone appreciate on the same level.

Hey, have a great day & take care of yourself, and your love ones too, of course...

Bob


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Ares said:


> Ok maybe I should find another hobby like stamp collecting or baseball cards (just kiddin) now Bob said that the pioneer is an A/B amp got that part I took another look at their website it says
> Amplifier Design: A.D. Energy?
> does this mean it's an A/D amp? is it possible? see this is why I am a little confuse the info Tony linked me to never said anything about this.


The Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH is a class A/B design amp receiver.

I think what Pioneer meant by A.D. Energy is Amplifier Design Energy, a simple form or acronym to distant themseves from the other manufacturers, same for Yamaha that likes to use Digital Top Art Design as their amp design for publicity purpose, but it is still also an A/B type amp design.
The VSX-21TXH receiver is an Amplifier Design with Direct Energy (A.D. Energy) class A/B amplifier. 
All amps are Direct Energy, it is only a way for Pioneer to describe their amp's section, nothing more nothing less.

Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon, Marantz... all used the same Amplifier Design in their amp sections, class A/B amps.

Don't put any attention to all these acronyms by different manufacturers, they are only lures trying to attract people in their products, that's all.

T, if you look carefully in their specs, you'll see that they do in fact mentioned a class A/B design amp.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Bob I thank you for your time and your advice, there are few people who would have gone to the lengths that you did to share your knowledge with a newcomer for this I am truly grateful. There are those who think maybe I ask to many questions,I only ask because you and the others who took the time to answer are further along in this game then I who better to ask then those who have the wisdom. May your days be filled with happiness and prosperity. Thank You.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Cool! :T


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