# James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cables



## Otto

I saw the below on James Randi's website last weekend, and immediately found it interesting. It's since popped up in a couple other places as well. 

He's basically calling out anyone that believes they can hear differences in super-expensive cables. He's taking the stance that the claims made are either paranormal or non-existent. If one of these guys (or perhaps YOU!) can actually determine which cable is which (in a statistically relevant fashion) in a properly designed and executed double-blind test, they will be awarded $1M. 

You'd think this would be easy for someone that woud call a cable "simply way better than anything I have heard prior to their audition".

But I don't think anyone will actually step forward. 

Why not?

Here's the article:

*MORE CABLE NONSENSE*

Several readers alerted us to yet another hilarious and preposterous situation in the “audiophile” business, which we have referred to frequently simply because if some of their claims were true, they would be paranormal. Here’s another such. 
Monster Cable – a company that turns out a fine line of products, but not untinged with the woo-woo flavor, sells a set of $80 HDMI [High Definition Multimedia Interface] cables, designed to handle new signals brought about by the advent of High Definition TV. I thought that was a heavy price to be asking – no, I didn’t invest! – but now we see that the Pear Cable company is advertising a pair of 12-foot “Anjou” audio cables for $7,250; that’s $302 a _foot!_ And, as expected, “experts” were approached for their opinions on the performance of these wonders. Excerpts: 
…way better than anything I have heard…Simply put these are very danceable cables. Music playing through them results in the proverbial foot-tapping scene with the need or desire to get up and move. Great swing and pace – these cables smack that right on the nose big time. 
…simply way better than anything I have heard prior to their audition. 








Well, we at the JREF are willing to be shown that these “no-compromise” cables perform better than, say, the equivalent Monster cables. While Pear rattles on about “capacitance,” “inductance,” “skin effect,” “mechanical integrity” and “radio frequency interface,” – all real qualities and concerns, and adored by the hi-fi nut-cases – we naively believe that a product should be judged by its actual performance, not by qualities that can only be perceived by attentive dogs or by hi-tech instrumentation. That said, we offer the JREF million-dollar prize to – for example – Dave Clark, Editor of the audio review publication Positive Feedback Online, who provided the above rave review. If Mr. Clark should choose to apply for the prize, he would be unlike John Atkinson of Stereophile Magazine – see randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 – who made great noises about being ready to snap up the million, then got distracted by things such as gullible readers who accepted his claimed abilities, and backed out. But we’ll see…


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## Anthony

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

It's like the Ansari X-Prize, but for debunking snake oil. I love it.

While I agree that $300 a foot interconnects or HDMI is ridiculous. There is something to be said for better quality connectors, shielded cable (if in a noisy environment), and proper LCR (inductance, capacitance, and resistance) values for the cable type. 

So what I'm saying is, I guess it depends on where you draw the line between real and snake oil. Because if they're offering $1M for knowing the difference between by Canare cables and the cheapies that come with the DVD players, sign me up. I, however, heard no difference between expensive AudioQuest cables and aforementioned Canare cables.


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## Sonnie

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

$302 per foot :dizzy:

I would just like to be fortunate enough to be able to have that kind of money so I could put it to much better use.

It could be interesting anyway.


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## terry j

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

Hey, do the challenge and then imagine how much a foot you could spend ha ha.


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## eugovector

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

I love it, and could certainly use a cool $mil, but I think I'd have a better chance of winning the x-prize by flapping my arms really fast.


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## Otto

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

Looks like Michael Fremer has taken up the challenge. I really have no idea what will happen. On the one hand I do know that there are cable differences from a EE point of view. On the other hand, I find it difficult to believe that there are such huge differences as to make them terribly audible. 

Will you be more surprised if he _can_ or _cannot _reliably tell the difference between cables in a properly designed and executed double-blind test?


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## eugovector

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

Wow, this is great. I've met Michael, actually, I interviewed him in Episode 6. The guy's hilarious, and a little nuts.

I'll say this, if there is a difference, Michael will hear it. What I think is more likely though, is that Michael is going to take great issue with the methodology, and ultimately create a drama-filled test that, regardless of the outcome, he will get a lot of attention writing about.

I certainly don't mean to talk like Michael and I are best buddies, we met once for a 30 minute interview, but I'm going to try to contact him to get his side of this story.


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## bobgpsr

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



Otto said:


> Will you be more surprised if he _can_ or _cannot _reliably tell the difference between cables in a properly designed and executed double-blind test?


If he could for a normal system which has low impedance drive (<= 600 ohm) and high impedance sink (> 5K ohm). This is for interconnects such as the analog outputs of a CD player to the Pre-Pro analog inputs. Comparsion between normal good quality interconnects that cost > $10 but less than $100 versus those $300/ft ones.

Given the above -- I'd be shocked if there was a difference unless the uber expensive cables acted as a low pass filter and degraded the sound fidelity.

Bob


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## eugovector

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

See, that's what I think is more likely, that these ultra expensive speaker cables are actually degrading the sound in some way, creating an artificial coloring. Rolling off some high-end, or something like that.


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## Darren

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

The reviewers of the high end cables claims are laughable. Are we to believe that cables create the music? How can cables be "danceable"? Absolutely insane. I don't know about you but the music's beat makes my foot tap. Not the cables.


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## jmprader

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



Darren said:


> The reviewers of the high end cables claims are laughable. Are we to believe that cables create the music? How can cables be "danceable"? Absolutely insane. I don't know about you but the music's beat makes my foot tap. Not the cables.


Goodness gracious, Darren. You have forgotten the most important element. Your AC power supply. Why, here in Cali, when we hooked it up to Sierra Club approved hydroelectric generated power versus coal and nuclear powered sources, it's unbelievable what a difference it makes...but nothing like when we listened to ordinary source material powered with AC produced through lead free solar pv panels supported by virgin Yew boughs with the power routed through 100% long grain cryo treated copper wire to inverters that Tibetan monks hand wound and blessed with a sprinkling of 3000 year old snow melt from a snow cave in the Himalayas...we saw the truth...danceable? foot tapping? nothing!...we are talking removing the veil baby...pass the Yohimbe please.

Yeah, cables...:gah:


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## Instal

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

If I am reading this correctly isn't the JREF giving Monster a certain amount of credibility by only wanting to put the Pear cable up against Monster? The Pear cable is laughably expensive but so is Monster to the average Joe. I would like to see this test done against a cable from Monoprice or Blue Jeans.


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## eugovector

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

Well, I think that on the spectrum of $10 monoprice to $7k Anjou, the $100-150 monster will fit right in the middle. I think it's a good choice, and after the monster proves indistinguishable, then you can move to compare to monoprice, and lamp cord, and anything else if you want to rub salt in the wound.


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## Doug Plumb

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

I'd like to know who bought these cables. I've got a bridge for sale...


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## Anthony

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

I think I'm going to make some of my Canare cables, put them in the freezer and sell them at a 1000% markup as "cryogenically enhanced" 


. . . but then my conscience kicks in


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## wbassett

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



Darren said:


> The reviewers of the high end cables claims are laughable. Are we to believe that cables create the music? How can cables be "danceable"? Absolutely insane. I don't know about you but the music's beat makes my foot tap. Not the cables.


Crazy claims are made throughout all walks of HT. I know some that made claims of projection screens that 'create light'! 

I see it as the Placebo Effect... when people spend that much they convince themselves there IS a difference more than their actually being a difference. I had a friend that was a Porsche mechanic and one of his customers showed up just to hang around and chew the fat. He showed Ziggy his shiny new gold plated tire gage. Ziggy leaned over to check the air in his wife's Mustang and the guy flipped out "What are you doing??? That's specially made and calibrated just for Porsche's!!!" Zig looked at him and asked how much he paid for it. The guy beamed and said "$80"

Here's your sign!


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## drf

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

Anyone who thinks they can get better sound by buying speaker/interconnect cable that cost more than the Mic cable used in the recording studio is INSANE!!!


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## terry j

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

http://www.randi.org/joom/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=102&Itemid=27


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## Otto

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

Hmmmm, so the cable guy backed out; doesn't want his cables tested. Why?

Hopefully they will be able to agree on another brand of cable.


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## terry j

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

http://www.randi.org/joom/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=103&Itemid=2


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## Doug Plumb

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

I agree with the viewpoint espoused on the JREF forum, but the JREF forum has already lost credibility with me from another issue.

They are sneaky and underhanded.


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## eugovector

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



Doug Plumb said:


> I agree with the viewpoint espoused on the JREF forum, but the JREF forum has already lost credibility with me from another issue.
> 
> They are sneaky and underhanded.


Care to link or elaborate?


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## Sonnie

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

I would discuss the JREF issue privately.

Although the cable story, as public as it is, might be an interesting podcast snip Marshall.


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## eugovector

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



terry j said:


> http://www.randi.org/joom/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=103&Itemid=2


Just got done reading that and 3 other posts, what a mess.

Someone on here must have a lot of money that could spare $8k on cables. Somebody set up this test and let's just do it.


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## eugovector

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



Sonnie said:


> I would discuss the JREF issue privately.
> 
> Although the cable story, as public as it is, might be an interesting podcast snip Marshall.


Yeah, I mentioned it last week, but I don't know if I'll do a followup until some more things shake out. This latest exchange really is embarrassing for both side, regardless of how I personally feel.


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## Otto

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



eugovector said:


> This latest exchange really is embarrassing for both side, regardless of how I personally feel.


No kiddin'. I like James Randi, but this whole thing makes both sides look like a bunch of name-calling babies. I hope they can work something out in the name of the test, but I'd prefer it be with as little animosity as possible.


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## Doug Plumb

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

"Care to link or elaborate?"

They didn't like that I was slaying them in an argument so they posted me personal info on their group. Many other underhanded tricks.


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## eugovector

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

Tell you what, put me down for $20. Let's raise the money, and personally ask Michael to make this happen.

Total reached: $20
Goal: $7400
Needed:$7380


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## terry j

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



Doug Plumb said:


> "Care to link or elaborate?"
> 
> They didn't like that I was slaying them in an argument so they posted me personal info on their group. Many other underhanded tricks.


Was that randii personally or just the whole 'gang'. It can get very 'fanlike' on the forums etc.

This must be some sort of indication of what goes on all the time in the paranormal area. I think it would wear me down quite quickly.

I have seen MF speak and write like that before, possibly on one of the 'rebel' audio sites like Peter Aczel or something. Seems his communications (when upset) all come out of the same mold.

Surely the reference $16 000 cables are suitable? Sure, they might not have been described as danceable, but a quick review somewhere can change that. Either expensive high blown audiophool speaker cables are snake oil or they ain't. Don't see what the name on it has to do with anything.


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## Guest

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

The biggest problem with the test is that Randi gets to pick the cables. 

What if it were he, and you got to pick the cables and the equipment?


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## Otto

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

Well, it started with Randi picking the cables that were reviewed by MF.

I believe that if they could put the name calling aside, they would be able to decide on a cable together. Certainly there's _some_ manufacturer out there that has enough faith in their cables to loan out a pair for this.

Randi should also consider using MF's reference cable, assuming that it can be tested for any type of tampering.


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## terry j

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

After doing a bit of reading on this, I must admit to a bit of sympathy for MF, I feel he has been treated a little shabbily.

His 'bedside manners' can leave a bit to be desired at times, but would I be any more polite under the circumstances??

His role in this seems to be a very reasonable one to me, he was willing to take the test after the very logical step of first hearing the pear cables and determining if he felt he could tell them apart or not (to date he hasn't heard them).

When Pear pulled out (NOT MF) he got a little of the backlash directed towards him, and it also seems that he was suggesting alternative tests that could be undertaken.

So my hat goes off to MF for being brave and honest in all this, seems that Randii could also have had a bit more decorum and tact, all that while basically agreeing with his stance on the matter.

Lets hope that not too much anger has built up here, and some sort of agreed upon test can still take place.

I felt that I needed to say this because (hangs head in shame) I too at one stage was ''''laughing'''' at MF, I now believe he just got caught in the crossfire.

Latest that I could find

http://www.gadgetsclub.com/component/option,com_jd-wp/Itemid,8/p,44038/


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## alan monro

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

That is incredible to think that some gifted people can hear electrons moving in a copper wire at the speed of light , I am certainly not one of those people , and i am not gullible also . Alan .


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## imbeaujp

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

I agree that there is a difference between 10$ cables and 100$ cables. I did many many tests with cables form 100 to 1000$ and more (A-B Blind test) and I can not ear any difference. Sorry, I can't.

All my Rotel components are connect with Monster Cable THX 1000. Got them on ebay for 25$ each.

If you want to really improve your system, put money on room enhencement, not in cables.

Anyway, it's always funny to read about cables...  LOL


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## drf

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

the one thing I have noticed about people who are hellbent on debunking something (usualy psuedoscience or religion), like Randi, they tend to get more agressive as there knowledge and wisdom of the topic diminishes. This is not to say Randi is wrong about anything, it just tends to show his knowledge is not quite as "in-depth" as he makes out. I have noticed very similar attributes in people who try to debunk all sorts of common beliefs including things like chiropractic care. Strong language and carefully worded insults do not help anyone. 

I say bring an unbiased third party, I.E the CSIRO or American equivilent to do the testing.

My 2c. (I wish I had all the 2c that people give around here, I'd be richer than Randi!! :devil


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## toecheese

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

I've been following the challenge (read it first on digg,but interestingly enough, it has been digg-spammed, which means it (links from JREF) *can't* appear on digg).

I think it is lame that a company that sells $7k? $14k? speaker wires can't put their product up for a test. If I were to assert that my cables were the best thing since sliced bread, I should have no issues with doing side-by-side comparisons. The fact that they chickened out is enough for me to postulate that they can't back up their claims (though to be fair, I don't know if they actually claimed it- the reviewer said they were 'danceable')

As far as whoever the SCREAMER is wanting to test his own 'reference' cables- I'd give him a red flag. As other have pointed out, you can make wires which actually degrade sound, and him being able to test his own and know the 'rolloff at x frequency' is bad.

The initial $1M test offered as I read it was the Pear wires versus some overpriced monster cables. That's it. No changing the rules, unless you want to make your own contest.


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## terry j

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



toecheese said:


> I've been following the challenge
> 
> As far as whoever the SCREAMER is wanting to test his own 'reference' cables- I'd give him a red flag. As other have pointed out, you can make wires which actually degrade sound, and him being able to test his own and know the 'rolloff at x frequency' is bad.
> 
> The initial $1M test offered as I read it was the Pear wires versus some overpriced monster cables. That's it. No changing the rules, unless you want to make your own contest.


The 'screamer' you alluded to is based on the assumption that MF would deliberately set out to defraud, ie tinker with his $16 000 cables in order to win (or indeed that they measure badly in the first place). I don't know enough about him to comment on the first part, and the claims are always that 'we can hear things measurements can't tell us' so (I'm assuming) that they should measure fine out of the box. In any case, the point is that MF put that up as a possibilty and Randii was actively considering it. Evidently he decided against it because of the POSSIBILITY of factors such as you mentioned, fair enough I say. Note, that should not reflect on MF's credibility in my book.

DRF I also agree with a lot of what you say, but I would add that I feel Randii would have a lot of resources to fall back on in the areas that he personally would not be completely up to speed on. The counter to your observation is of course that the onus is not on him to DISPROVE anything,rather it is the reverse and to date.....


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## drf

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

Terry, I agree whole heartedly. the owness is always to prove rather than disprove. I would certainly hope if he is going to defame a buisness/person publically that he would have some decent proof behing him rather than just smart words is all I'm saying.

I have an idea, they can compare my DIY cables to the monster brand and if someone picks my cables as the better quality I will sell them for the meagre audiophile price of $19,000. :sneeky:


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## Rex

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



jmprader said:


> Goodness gracious, Darren. You have forgotten the most important element. Your AC power supply. Why, here in Cali, when we hooked it up to Sierra Club approved hydroelectric generated power versus coal and nuclear powered sources, it's unbelievable what a difference it makes...but nothing like when we listened to ordinary source material powered with AC produced through lead free solar pv panels supported by virgin Yew boughs with the power routed through 100% long grain cryo treated copper wire to inverters that Tibetan monks hand wound and blessed with a sprinkling of 3000 year old snow melt from a snow cave in the Himalayas...we saw the truth...danceable? foot tapping? nothing!...we are talking removing the veil baby...pass the Yohimbe please.
> 
> Yeah, cables...:gah:


:T


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## warnerwh

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

This may sound hard to believe but I can easily hear the difference of not just speaker cables but putting styro foam cups under these cables to keep them away from my carpet with all the static electricity. Some times I've learned that just moving a cable 2" will have a profound effect on the quality of sound. Sometimes all the bass will just "disappear". You'll have to excuse me now because I have to go back to my padded room.:neener:

What gets me is that people will spend thousands on cable and have no acoustic treatments. They probably don't know that you can hear the difference between the acoustics of rooms. I've seen a couple very expensive systems here in town and pics on the net, including reviewers from Print magazines, that have awful rooms. As a matter of fact I've lost nearly all respect for reviewers. Whatever they say should be questioned.


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## Scuba Diver

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

I can not believe how many of your are still using wire. I have just upgraded from wire to these amazing lazer cables. The red beams pulsate when sound travels through the air. I can get you a pair for just $159,999.00 if you are interested. The sound quality is untouchable. Don't believe me? Buy a pair and listen for yourself. :hail:








*If you pull a weed from your yard and put a price on it, someone will buy it. Why would speaker wiring be any different? :huh:*


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## terry j

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



warnerwh said:


> This may sound hard to believe but I can easily hear the difference of not just speaker cables but putting styro foam cups under these cables to keep them away from my carpet with all the static electricity. Some times I've learned that just moving a cable 2" will have a profound effect on the quality of sound. Sometimes all the bass will just "disappear". You'll have to excuse me now because I have to go back to my padded room.:neener:


you nearly got me!!! At least your padded room would sound better than some of the room setups you see on the net!!

Well, looks this one has died and is starting to emit a bad smell. Pity, but would a test of any description have put a subject like this to bed?? I doubt it, so I've made a decision to let people have their way and spend $10 000 on a set of cables of any description if they wish, it's their money and they can do with it as they please.

My only lingering annoyance factor is that the purveyors of said cables get away with the outlandish claims, seemingly knowing full well they will never get challenged.

If only all products sold were subjected to the same stringent studies that are needed in other fields.....like proof of claims??


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## Rex

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

More than thirty years ago, Stereo Review magazine addressed the issue of golden ears and magical equipment. As I recall, they conducted some double-blind tests and found the highly-hyped and over-priced esoteric products to be monsterously preposterous.

A friend of mine used to teach at Oklahoma State University. He told me about the cowchip tossing contest they have there. He also told me they have dried and lacquered cowchips in an art museum. There are people who will buy dried cowchip and hang them on their walls in their homes. If people will put cowchips on their wall, is it any surprise they will buy exotic cables made of unobtainium for $300 a foot? :jump:


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## eugovector

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

The latest:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184

Apparently the folks at AVS took my view and just did their own test. I'll leave the results as a surprise...

Edit: Oh, and the "Mike", is not Michael Fremer, but Mike Lavigne. Don't know anything about him.


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## Doug Plumb

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

I think someone should set up a speaker and mic carefully to measure a near-field response with and without the expensive cables. The mic doesn't need to be calibrated.

Several measurements with and without the expensive cables should be done so that normal measurement variations are seen in context.

If the expensive cables make a difference the result should show up in the frequency response.

Any cable differences that exist will show up in frequency response.


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## Anthony

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

You make a good point, Doug. Although I think more than just frequency response should be measured for completeness. I don't know how cables could lower distortion or spectral decay, but it seems worth a quick measure. Group delay might also be interesting as well.

I've got some MITs at home. I think I'll try this later this week. 14 gauge, versus MIT -- same amp, source, and gain. I'll try it with the Magnepans, since I know they have a very flat frequency response from 100 to 20kHz.


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## Doug Plumb

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

All physical effects that affect audibility will show up in the frequency response. Group delay is not audible unless it is affecting frequency response.

"I've got some MITs at home. I think I'll try this later this week. 14 gauge, versus MIT"

Some of these cables have a little box at one end with a cap and resistor - this is to change frequency response and make the cables sound different than ordinary cables. The listener concludes that different is better when it costs more. In this case nothing could be further than the truth. If the error in freq response that the cables provide cancel another error then the cables will sound better.

If the box gives a slight increase in HF levels then the cables will sound "faster".

*A "faster" sound or "better transient response" is always directly associated with a small boost in HF response. *


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## Doug Plumb

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

BTW, with maggies or any other flat speaker in particular its very important that the mic not move even a fraction of a fraction of a hair while comparing measurements between two cables. Repeat the experiment several times and be careful you don't move the maggies while pulling and putting wires into the connectors.

Make sure you are far away from the direct sound path, the mic and the speaker when doing this.

Differences will be in HF's so you can use small gate times of less than 1 ms. No point in comparing LF responses they will not differ.


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## terry j

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



Doug Plumb said:


> I think someone should set up a speaker and mic carefully to measure a near-field response with and without the expensive cables. The mic doesn't need to be calibrated.
> 
> Several measurements with and without the expensive cables should be done so that normal measurement variations are seen in context.
> 
> If the expensive cables make a difference the result should show up in the frequency response.
> 
> Any cable differences that exist will show up in frequency response.


Not sure if this would work doug, after all is not the claim that there are indeed differences the ears can hear that cannot be shown with measurements??

Not saying i buy it in regards to cables, but is it not true?? Let's make an 'intellectual experiment'. And for the sake of this 'experiment', lets make an assumption that it can be done in theory, if not in practice.

Let us, by whatever means needed (say a Cray computer of the most power imaginable) and use, for example, dsp to have two different speakers measure _exactly_ the same in an anechoic response. Now, if one is an electrostatic say, and the other an unbelievably complex five way say, is it true that if they measure exactly the same they will indeed _sound_ the same??

I'm curious what people would think, I would say that they wouldn't sound the same regardless of how arbitrarily close we can get the measurements. Of course I can't back that up, I have no experience in the area.

But if I'm right, then to some degree we can say that measurements aren't the complete story?


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## Sonnie

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

Would the two different speakers even have to be electrostatic vs dynamic? 

What about two dynamic speakers... say Paradigm vs. B&W?

If speakers measure the same exact frequency response regardless of the brand, does that make them all sound the exact same?


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## drf

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



Sonnie said:


> Would the two different speakers even have to be electrostatic vs dynamic?
> 
> What about two dynamic speakers... say Paradigm vs. B&W?
> 
> If speakers measure the same exact frequency response regardless of the brand, does that make them all sound the exact same?


No, it all comes down to the shape of the sound wave. We can have a saw shaped wave and sine wave and a square wave all at the exact same frequencies yet they will all sound hugely different.
A saw tooth wave will sound more like a brass instrument, a sqaure wave will sound like a heavily distorted guitar and a sine wave will sound like smooth clean tone. However, it will be the speakers or the amp that manipulates or contorts the shape of the wave, Not the cable. So scientific testing should still be highly accurate for judging cable influence.


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## Anthony

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

I say no to that, but with a caveat.

Simple nearfield, yes. But since we listen at a distance, many factors come into play: power response (off axis), baffle effects, and possibly spectral decay. I say possibly, because if the sound was averaged over time, it would show up on the FR plot as a slight peak where ringing occurred. However, if the response was gated, the ringing might not show up in the FR, but would definitely affect the sound.

so if you measured all that and the speakers measured the same then I say it's possible they would sound the same.

That's what I'm trying to do now: replace a Magnepan speaker with an open baffle dynamic speaker (see DIY Speakers forum for more details on that).


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## clubfoot

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

I'm sorry to tell you replacing a Magi with a dynamic speaker will not sound the same,...not even close.


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## terry j

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



Sonnie said:


> Would the two different speakers even have to be electrostatic vs dynamic?
> 
> What about two dynamic speakers... say Paradigm vs. B&W?
> 
> If speakers measure the same exact frequency response regardless of the brand, does that make them all sound the exact same?


No Sonnie, I simply used as different examples as I could find to 'magnify' the question so to speak.

I get different answers to my question, depending on how i analyse it!! Take the 'hidden behind the curtain' example.

We don't know what is there, so can treat it as a black box, we don't care what happens inside it, only what comes out (bit like an amp black box). What comes out of it are waves in the air, which impinge on our ears. So, a given FR will sound a certain way, so if each time I take a measurement prior to listening I see the exact same measurement (even tho the demons have switched speakers behind the screen without my knowledge) I can believe that I would hear the same sound.

OTOH, surely surely a FR measurement will not take into account factors (intrinsic to drivers) of say transient response?? So a dull, boring lifeless speaker driver could theoretically have exactly the same FR (with dsp if needed) as a dynamic, exciting and energetic driver, so the two would reproduce music very differently no matter how close their measurements.

See, I'm confused, and it doesn't take much ha ha.


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## clubfoot

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

Would they sound the same if their pink noise measured the same?


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## drf

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



clubfoot said:


> Would they sound the same if their pink noise measured the same?


No, like I said before, FR can be a perfect match in two completely different systems yet if the soundwave is a different shape then it wil sound different. For example if driver A has a 10mm excursion before it becomes non-linear and driver B only has 5mm. Then when feed with identical sound sources speaker B will start to bend the wave in a non-linear fasion before speaker A. Thus causing it to sound different even although the FR is still the same.


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## Guest

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

Can someone out there please do us all a favor and setup a quality mic. in your speaker’s sweet-spot, then record the effect of running basic 12-guage extension-cord to your speakers vs. some kind of uber-fancy cables. As mentioned earlier in the thread: don't move the speakers or microphone even an inch while recording. Go so far as to place your slightly sound-absorptive body in more or less the same part of the room each time, and record us two FLAC or WAV files, even a 320Kb/s MP3, and post em? I suggest a beautiful classical piece, jazz or unplugged (your favorite pick) from a well-mastered CD or LP.

Briefly describe the size / furnishings / sound energy in the room so we can ‘place our minds there’.

If any of you out there can pull this off, it’d be a great way to share the ‘sound’ or lack thereof, with regards to cables.

If the sound clips end up being too huge for this forum to host, I’ll offer up unlimited file size hosting on my server-space.

Andrew D.
www.cdnav.com


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## Otto

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*

Hi Andrew, all,

I don't think that measurements of this type are going to have the required resolution to differentiate cables. I've run multiple measurements of the same system, one directly after the other, and the sweeps are similar but definitely different (these measurements were done within seconds of each other, with no movement of the mic, the system, or any thing or person within the room). The differences that people expect to hear in cables are much, much more subtle that what you can measure with an RS SPL meter and REW. I would suspect that even anechoic measurements with state-of-the-art equipment aren't going to reveal the types of differences that would be expected from cables. 

It would be much more productive to measure the _cable itself_. REW and PCs don't generally lend themselves to measuring speaker cables, but you could do it with interconnects rather easily. At that point, you have removed the transducers from the loop, and are measuring the cable only. Indeed, I believe that any properly-designed cable will measure virtually identically. Still, the believers in cable differences will indicate that although the cables have measured the same frequency response, they will still exhibit sonic differences during subjective listening tests.

For the record, I am making no statement as to whether I would expect to _hear_ differences or not. I have not done the double-blind testing.


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## Guest

> Still, the believers in cable differences will indicate that although the cables have measured the same frequency response, they will still exhibit sonic differences during subjective listening tests.


Exactly, thus my thoughts on using a quality microphone instead...

Perhaps your mili-second apart measurements were simply reflections / standing waves in the room? What results do you get with solid tones or bandwidth sweeps? Any warbling in the recording due to room effects? I still think using a mic. and speakers is an interesting angle, especially due to the very fact that 'those who hear' state that measurements make no difference, and that its all kinda', um, 'out there' somehow... pace & rhythm, ‘speed’ and all that. I don't get it either, but as we cannot rely on measurements and TWH always say "trust your ears", what else have we got as tools?

Andrew D.
Cdnav.com


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## terry j

*Re: James Randi Offers $1M for Golden Ears to Successfully Differentiate High-End Cab*



eugovector said:


> The latest:
> 
> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184
> 
> Apparently the folks at AVS took my view and just did their own test. I'll leave the results as a surprise...
> 
> Edit: Oh, and the "Mike", is not Michael Fremer, but Mike Lavigne. *Don't know anything about him.*


Have a look at Mikes setup......if he can't pick the difference then his system and room are NOT to blame!!!

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/663.html

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm


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## yourgrandma

I'm not an esoteric audiopile by any means, so you'll have to bear with me. First and mot importantly: Can any of these insane reviewers claim that thier listening experiance would be improved more by investing tens of thousands of dollars on cables, than say the same amount on acuostical improvements? 

Also, am I to assume the "baseline" cables are a midrange Monster? I have Z1's and while I won't claim to have heard a huge difference, I do think that in my system, the jump from 14g zip line made a very subtle change, mostly in level, but that;s an improvement.

I guess what I'm getting at is that no matter what your looking at, speaker cable or motorcycles, the more money you spend, the less of a difference that extra bit of cash will make.


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## thxgoon

yourgrandma said:


> Can any of these insane reviewers claim that thier listening experiance would be improved more by investing tens of thousands of dollars on cables, than say the same amount on acuostical improvements?


No but the tens of thousands of dollars they make in advertising dollars from the cable companies will certainly go a long way in the improvement in their system :neener:


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## toecheese

All of these recent threads are missing the point. The point being- can anyone hear the difference between $100 speaker wires and $10k ones. Randi is offering $1M for this test and should be commended. He chose some ridiculous speaker wires which had the hilarious review of 'danceable' and Monster cables and wants someone to tell the difference *with their ears*. You could probably find miniscule differences with instrumentation (the more expensive ones actually degrading the sound due to capacitance), but if the best set of ears cannot tell a difference, why would you do it?


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## ACGREEN

Everyone needs to take a common sense approach to cabling their system. The cables should match your system. If you have a Sony HTIB, then you don't need high-end cables. But i would be hard pressed to justify a $300/ft HDMI cable as it is for a digital signal. Digital signals don't require such high end cables like speaker wire. Some analog signals and audio signals are more susceptible to interference. This is where you should invest your money in good cables.


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## Guest

ACGREEN said:


> Digital signals don't require such high end cables like speaker wire.


Interestingly, that's almost completely wrong.

Digital signals carry far-higher frequency content that analogue signals, and therefore require "better" cabling, e.g. lower capacitance etc, in order to minimise losses in the high frequencies which would lead to "rounding off" of the square waves. Too much rounding (from ****** cables, cables that are too long, etc) and the digital signal will be misinterpreted, quickly leading to no intelligible transmission.


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## drf

I'll see your "almost completely wrong" and raise you a "not quite true but close".

While a certain quality of cable is required for optimum digital transfer, the idea that cheap cables fall below this quality control is wrong. There will not be sufficient rounding of square wave due to the capacitance or jitter issues due to impedance mismatch unless the cable is a pre-loved power cable from the mid 1800's.
There is a good reason most people can't tell the difference between entry level digital and even the most expensive digital cables.


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## Guest

drf said:


> I'll see your "almost completely wrong" and raise you a "not quite true but close".
> 
> While a certain quality of cable is required for optimum digital transfer, the idea that cheap cables fall below this quality control is wrong. There will not be sufficient rounding of square wave due to the capacitance or jitter issues due to impedance mismatch unless the cable is a pre-loved power cable from the mid 1800's.
> There is a good reason most people can't tell the difference between entry level digital and even the most expensive digital cables.


Understood! :yes: I was just trying to point out that digital cables can have more stringent requirements than analogue cables, which can be counterintuitive. I wasn't trying to suggest that everyday cheap cables can't do the job in short runs.

It should only really be audible (or visible, in the case of HDMI cables) if the cables are really badly constructed, or for loooong run lengths.


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## drf

One other thing I forgot to mention:

Welcome to the forums rogergraham. good to see new people


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## ACGREEN

rogergraham said:


> Interestingly, that's almost completely wrong.
> 
> Digital signals carry far-higher frequency content that analogue signals, and therefore require "better" cabling, e.g. lower capacitance etc, in order to minimise losses in the high frequencies which would lead to "rounding off" of the square waves. Too much rounding (from ****** cables, cables that are too long, etc) and the digital signal will be misinterpreted, quickly leading to no intelligible transmission.


What I am trying to say is that a $10 fiber optic cable vs a $100 fiber optic cable will not give any noticable difference in sound quality. But speaker cabling can be a different story depending on your gear. I speak from personnal experience only. You are correct that digital cables must meet a higher standard, **** there really isn't anything due to speaker wire.


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## premiumplus

I have $4,500 q-tips that clean the ear canal for max frequency response. Your music will come to life with a clarity and definition that will redefine the soundstage! These q's are NOS and VERY RARE...


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