# Ceiling lowering Need some help:)



## TerraFirma Studio (Jun 10, 2011)

Hello all,

I am pretty new here & I had a sweet introduction where I got a very warm welcome.. 

The first thing I need some help with is the ceiling, I want to lower this to create pretty simple a better low end 
I had some talks /email with a guy in Holland you might know, he is called Toine Dingemans I suppose he k now a thing or two lol Anyways he recommended me to start with this because of the great effect and the pretty small investment I obtained all the material from the bran Kreon got myself a carpenter and going to start next week Thursday's. I wanted to get some insights down here where I need to look out for and how much I should actually lower the ceiling.. Before you guys start explaining me all kinds of stuff i need to tell you that my own expertise lays in audio and all the techniques around making a good music production ...Please be kind hahahah dont overkill:huh: me with stacks of info Also my native tongue is Dutch but my English is pretty good but technical English can be a bit of a struggle Thanks in advance, i am looking forward to hear your thoughts


Smoothio


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

Hi Smoothio,

What is your current room size and can you give a link to a site that describes the benefits of lowering the ceiling?

Cheers,
Bill.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Yes - please give us the room dimensions as they are now. What specific things are you looking to accomplish? "Better" bass really doesn't tell me much. Smoother response? More output? Tighter and more extended?

It's pretty rare that making a room smaller is a good idea - especially the height. Every room is different though.


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## TerraFirma Studio (Jun 10, 2011)

Ok dimension from the space are :

255 cm hight 
335 cm long
243 cm wide

There is a door (pls look at attachment), a window(left side) and an inbuilt cupboard (rightside)




Link to Toine Dingemans site : its in dutch though !! http://www.soundscapes.nu/home.html

I had a couple of calls/mails with him but could not afford paying him (500 euros)

This is a babble fish translation so maybe you need to be a lil creative hahaha
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For a suspended ceiling, I had certainly not a specific product in mind, since the ceiling variation depends primarily on the absorption requirements in your area. There are a lot ceilings sale with powerful high absorption, which is rarely the right choice. There are far fewer high ceilings sale that spared and the main focus on mid-, and low absorption midlaag record. Ceilings Rockfon firm for individuals makes sense because the minimum order quantity is not so great. But the choice is so great that you really only based on a measurement can know which is best for the space suit. Merford is not directly a ceiling specialist, so I do not think I've had in mind.

The best tip is>>> to lower the ceiling to 20cm, so you have additional low-and midlowabsorptie. This makes the need for additional bass traps to be deployed may be absent or only very small.

I bought the materials already for the ceiling if need I can make pictures of it

What i want t accomplish is a room i can trust ,..where i can edit my sounds in the production order and mixdown the song easier when I ..say, edit a bass drum or a snare ot bass line!!,.. I EQ the room for a good bit atm this means i have to bounce (record)and reference time and time again till its ok this takes time ..to much time Again I have not enough knowledge about acuastics


Ok deur means DOOR, kast means cupboard ...on the 138 cm side there is a cupboard as well


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

So is the 255 cm to a drop tile ceiling or to the hard surface above? From a bass standpoint, the dimension that matters is the hard surface. 

Bryan


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## TerraFirma Studio (Jun 10, 2011)

Its a hard surface (chalk first ..then concrete )


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

OK. In my opinion, there's no way I would lower that ceiling. Now, if the goal is to put a false drop tile ceiling below the hard one and fill with insulation for bass control purposes, that's doable, but it doesn't actually change the height of the room in terms of how bass will interact with it.

Bryan


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## TerraFirma Studio (Jun 10, 2011)

OOH no.. I spend 300 plus euros on the material thinking I made a good move!! What was this guy on about ,he is a real authority on this stuff...I am confused now (to say the least)
He explained me it like this>>>
He said "compare it with a guitar for example, the amplification comes from the wooden box so to solidify the bass in a space lower the ceiling" ??

The plan was :

NO insulation we where planning to use , the materials are exact for this purpose( Kreon)allover they are used (shall i make a picture) Are you sure you know what you are talking about sorry no offense but this comes as a blow in the face I am about ready to go install it

BTW I can also make some picture or even send/attach the material folder

Thx for the input


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Yes. That would help to show what was planned. I'm not sure I'm understanding what he was attempting to do.


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## TerraFirma Studio (Jun 10, 2011)

Ok sweet I ll try and attach some pictures now from the materials If you think it s wise I'll make some from the room too,.. but that will be tomorrow cuz the old lady is on my case:foottap: now like Wilma from the Flintstones lol

Hope this is helping a bit


http://pdf.archiexpo.com/pdf/kreon/acoustics/7010-59890.html


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

If the hard ceiling is going to remain the same and you're just adding these panels, that's fine. It's not really changing the effective height of the room from a bass perspective looking at the cores. I have no idea how they'll perform as I'm not seeing any lab reports on them and don't know how thick they are. 

Just looking at them, they'll likely not reach terribly low. They look to be between 1 and 2" thick.

Bryan


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## TerraFirma Studio (Jun 10, 2011)

But our intentional plan(this guy Dingemans advice)was that they where needed to be lowered for the best results ,.round 20 cm..? No isolation in between


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

That's to extend how low they'll function in terms of frequency since they're relatively thin. You're still not really changing the height of the ceiling in terms of how bass reacts.


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## Ile (Nov 23, 2010)

Lowered acoustic ceiling with least 20 cm drop is pretty common treatment around here Europe.

For extended bass absorbtion below 250 Hz it's advised to use mid heavy rigid mineralwool (concrete connstruction slab or step attenuating boards) over those 30-50 mm thick acoustic panels. Some acoustic tile manufacturers also have own products for this purpose, like X-bass.
http://www.ecophon.com/uk/Product-Web/Sombra/Sombra-A/
Acoustics sheet have measurements with and without extra wool.

One option is add that extra wool only to area near walls, like soffits.


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## TerraFirma Studio (Jun 10, 2011)

@Ile

OOh hmm great news So do you think i have the right material then ? I understand it is hard to say but pls try ~I was planning to drop it just like you said... 20 cm at least this is also what is been advised by Toine Dingemans the guy i referred to before..Again these are especialy for this purpose i am not entirely sure if the are also commonly used in studio environments but definitely in offices schools shops etc About the second part of your post,..could you be so kind and be a bit more clear Thanks


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

I think you'll be fine. Like I said, doing this is more treatment INSIDE the room and you're not really 'lowering the ceiling' of the room from a volume perspective and how bass interacts with it.


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## TerraFirma Studio (Jun 10, 2011)

To my understanding it should results in more bass, fatter bass and in the best case ..i do not need to install a basstrap or more then one. Oh btw this is phase one of my studio acoustic job i thought it would be smart to discuss this out here first ..I have also foam materials for the sound diffusion but like said lol thats for an other thread


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## Ile (Nov 23, 2010)

TerraFirma Studio said:


> @Ile
> 
> OOh hmm great news So do you think i have the right material then ? I understand it is hard to say but pls try ~I was planning to drop it just like you said... 20 cm at least this is also what is been advised by Toine Dingemans the guy i referred to before..Again these are especialy for this purpose i am not entirely sure if the are also commonly used in studio environments but definitely in offices schools shops etc About the second part of your post,..could you be so kind and be a bit more clear Thanks


Rigid mineral wool panel is good material to get more absorbtion to room. I have seen similar ceilings in studios and hometheaters. These studio guys seem to agree.
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2116

I was meanin that if your room need more absorbtion to lower bass than dropped ceiling provide, you can remove row of tiles along walls and fill that 20 cm air space above ceiling with rigid mineral wool afterwards. Basic rigid construction mineral wool (around 50kg/m3) could be used. Then you have 4 decent sized corner bass absorbers hidet inside your ceiling.


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## TerraFirma Studio (Jun 10, 2011)

So am i fine with what I have bought ? Super.. Thx for that link, it makes me a lot more confident. I was kinda confused for a bit ,..thinking I did spend 400 euro':blink:s for nothing (materials). Your response was very clear thanks a lot. I guess for now i am ok& I start coming Thursdays I feel good about it.

Thanks guys for you input I knew when signed up It was a good thing to do.:T


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## TerraFirma Studio (Jun 10, 2011)

Guys the job went well @Ile I did also what you said more materials in the corner actually the left overs i had to keep obviously and we placed them in the corners above where my monitors are going to be placed. I am really chuffed, it sound already so much dryer. I quickly set up last night, just to hear the difference!! Its dry as a good sherry now :blink:


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## TerraFirma Studio (Jun 10, 2011)

My question is :can i keep this thread and get help with some diffusion placement?or do i need or is it better to start another thread?


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