# What would you do first?



## plcamp (May 14, 2014)

After many years of neglect, I've finally started on the upgrade path with purchase of Paradigm STUDIO100. V5 speakers. Massive improvement (surprised my expectations)vs my great looking but not so refined 11SEMkIIIs.

Maybe the weakest thing in my system is the Yamaha rxv657 receiver. Lots if reasons to upgrade that.

But with what? I primarily want sound quality in whatever I next purchase. Best to find a good pair of power amps and biamp the speakers off the existing yammy, or do the latest receivers allow you to biamp with as good performance?

I am using the full 7.1 of the current yammy...but I want to fix the primary front channels first. I dont need much I/o...just a cablebox and a pc to connect.

Anyone whos upgraded from a similar situation...would love to hear your thoughts!


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

The Paradigm STUDIO100 v5 read like they're sweet speakers. Congratulation.

In my opinion, the two most important channels in a home theater system is the subwoofer and center channel.

What do you have for a subwoofer system? How much are you budgeting for your next purchase?


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## plcamp (May 14, 2014)

Center is CC350, Sub is 15" Pw series, ya I know the Centre is weak vs mains.

You dont think the amp is the bigger problem?

No dollar value in mind yet, I,m trying to find the price performance sweetspot but have no idea what to look for.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

If you want to biamp... You can get the Denon 4520, and you can bi-amp your mains, and still have 5 more channels left for your 7.1 setup. Another thing is you can add another sub to the mix for a 7.2 setup if you wish and the Denon can EQ it too. The only downside is... When you bi-amp Audyssey will not EQ the bi-amped speakers but will power them from what I understand. A work around is to get a mini DSP for your bi-amp setup, and then Audyssey will EQ them fine.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> The Paradigm STUDIO100 v5 read like they're sweet speakers. Congratulation.
> 
> In my opinion, the two most important channels in a home theater system is the subwoofer and center channel.


Agreed, but in the reverse order.



plcamp said:


> Center is CC350, Sub is 15" Pw series, ya I know the Centre is weak vs mains.
> 
> You dont think the amp is the bigger problem?


Nope, it's the center. It's been well established that between 60 and 80% of the total sound in the room comes from the center. 

With the efficiency of your L/R and your available power, you'll never come close to stressing anything there, but your center looks like it's around 5dB less sensitive than the L/R, and that places a very firm limit on the total system performance. The L/R will be loafing while you're nudging peaks to clipping in the center. 

If the sub's in the right place, it's probably fine.


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

I dunno, speakers are going to make the biggest improvement and you already upgraded there, so a center channel upgrade should be next. I think you'd be hard pressed to hear any difference between your Yamaha and any new AVR or amp you might add to the system, although I'm all for external amps. Not familiar with your sub but you might see some improvement there. I'd guess your biggest bang for the buck in sound quality improvement with your current set up would be room treatments, bass traps, diffusors and/or acoustic panels.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

plcamp said:


> Center is CC350, Sub is 15" Pw series, ya I know the Centre is weak vs mains.
> 
> You dont think the amp is the bigger problem?
> 
> No dollar value in mind yet, I,m trying to find the price performance sweetspot but have no idea what to look for.


The short version, when upgrading a system, everything is a problem, including where to get the money. With that in mind, from my reading and personal experience, I say the center channel and the subwoofers are the most important speakers in the speaker system. You've started upgrading the speakers, so I would stick with upgrading the speaker system.

There's right about a bazillion subwoofer choices, hence the need for the budget to narrow it down. You'll get more bang for your buck with ID subwoofer manufactures such as Power Sound Audio, SVS and Rythmik vs Paradigm subwoofers.

When you finish upgrading the speaker/subwoofer system, then I would look to the receiver.



gazoink said:


> Agreed, but in the reverse order.


Agreed. I just banged it out in no particular order but agreed, already having the mains, going with upgrading the center channel is the recommended path to follow.



nova said:


> I'd guess your biggest bang for the buck in sound quality improvement with your current set up would be room treatments, bass traps, diffusors and/or acoustic panels.


Just saying, "quality" bass traps and room treatments are an expensive distraction to the decor of rooms, make small rooms smaller and to be done right, open up a whole new can of audio science vs upgrading to a flagship AVR with Audyssey XT32 w/SubEQ HT.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

If your center is your weak spot that's where I would start. I recently picked up some amps and don't really notice any difference but I just wanted some. I went from Energy speakers to Klipsch the Rc-64 was a big improvement over the Energy center can't remember model but it was over $300 so it was a decent model.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

We have the RC-64 II and it was one of the best upgrades. Yeah baby!


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Specs on the CC-350 are sketchy, the best I could find was an old review from 1998 that stated sensitivity at 87dB/w/m. The L/R are 92dB/w/m. Assuming a 10' listening distance, with the existing center and dialog running at a slightly "theatrical" level of 75dB SPL, maximum volume loud peaks will clip the center. The only real solution is to upgrade the center as to achieve 5dB greater headroom for that speaker would require a 300W amp, assuming the speaker could take it. The maximum undistorted level from the L/R is 5dB greater than the center now. If all 3 LCR speakers were identical at 92dB/w/m, you could hit reference with the required 20dB of headroom with the current AVR. 

And we're not even talking overall sound quality yet...


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

gazoink said:


> Specs on the CC-350 are sketchy,.....


Here's their current CC-590, which is about the same price as the RC-64 II and should marry up nicely with the new Studio 100 mains.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

I would go with the cc-690 for the center as I think it is the match for the Studio 100. :T

Here is the review on the whole setup... http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...-studio-100-cc-690-adp-590-sub-15-review.html


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

If the money is there......absolutely.


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## plcamp (May 14, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback!

I'm convinced the sub I've got is easily good enough...I can move the furniture with it and it sounds tight/right crossed over by amp at 80Hz.

The gent I bought the main speakers from had that exact (physically gigantic) recommended centre channel speaker as well...I declined interest in it at the time I bought the mains from him because I thought the centre would be a lower priority in my upgrade! I can still contact him, maybe get that centre.

One question about subs...how does one go about adjusting the sub phase to assure it is correct vs mains? I would think this needs a continuous 5.1 channel test tone at about 80Hz, so you can signal both mains and sub at same time, then adjust phase of sub to maximize output? How have you folks done this?

Meanwhile i am having extreme enjoyment re-listening to my entire audio filesystem, (kinda hearing them for the first time?).


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## plcamp (May 14, 2014)

The gent who I got the main speakers from has actually got both the recommended centers for sale...

CC590 - $775
CC690 - $1,150

I understand the 690 is an exact match, but the thing is physically gigantic...approaching the size of the mains (so I am leaning to the smaller one)

I think these prices are reasonable?


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

plcamp said:


> One question about subs...how does one go about adjusting the sub phase to assure it is correct vs mains? I would think this needs a continuous 5.1 channel test tone at about 80Hz, so you can signal both mains and sub at same time, then adjust phase of sub to maximize output? How have you folks done this?


Run YPAO with everything connected, and let YPAO figure it out. You shouldn't have to mess with sub phase. If you're listening to 5.1 music, and your speakers are set to "large", you may want to play with the "extra bass" setting. Some surround music is mixed without an LFE, so the sub does nothing. Switching to "extra bass" will send 80Hz and below from the fronts to the sub. This is only an issue with surround music with no LFE, or playing 2-channel modes with no surround decoding, and only with speakers set to Large. Yes, it's a confusing mess. Your speakers will most likely auto-cal to Large. 


plcamp said:


> Meanwhile i am having extreme enjoyment re-listening to my entire audio filesystem, (kinda hearing them for the first time?).


Sweet, isn't it? The best reason for upgrades is to re-listen to everything.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

plcamp said:


> The gent who I got the main speakers from has actually got both the recommended centers for sale...
> 
> CC590 - $775
> CC690 - $1,150
> ...


If the budget is there, for sound quality (dispersion), let me encourage, go with the CC690. We have the RC-64 II. It too is a very large box. Because the top sits flat, it also makes for a killer flat screen stand. :whistling:

As stated earlier, the CC and the subwoofer system, in my opinion, are the two most important components. Why? Ninety percent of dialogue goes through the CC and with bass management, the LFE channel handles all the 0.1 channel and most of the non-locatable bass as it's customary to set crossovers for all speakers to 80Hz. It reads like your budget can handle the extra finances but my expectation, in the end, you will wish you had gone with the 690 vs the smaller 590 if you go with the CC590.

See our photo gallery for a few shots of the Klipsch, RC-64 II in our system. It's 8" (200mm) tall, 36" (900mm) long and 12 1/2" (312mm) deep. The mains are Epic-CF3s and the subwoofers are Rythmik FV15HPs.

As another form of encouragement, always go for the best you can afford when upgrading. Nobody complains they bought too much quality and wish they had gone for the smaller engine.

(and no, you're not going get away with it.....what subwoofer system do you have)

...lddude:

As to dialing in your subs, as suggested, let your room correction software do their thing and use a freeware copy of REW to measure the acoustics in the room so one can fine tune everything. As to room corrections software, the best is a debatable issue. We went with a flagship AVR which, if your budget will support this type of luxury excess, I would encourage you to do. The flagship AVR came with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 w/SubEQ HT which allows for separate phase measuring and setting of a pair of subwoofers. The AVR also comes with two separate Sub-Outs as opposed to most that have either an internal "Y" or a single Sub Pre-Out where the user "Y's" somewhere along the line. Then you have to use a sound meter and a continuous tone till each subwoofer channel are equally matched. Big pain and likely to be gotten wrong. Unfortunately, dialing in a pair or more of subs becomes as much science as it is art. Many here are qualified on this matter and will be happy to guide you on the issue. For a boatload of information on my above, check out the forum heading for REW.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

plcamp said:


> The gent who I got the main speakers from has actually got both the recommended centers for sale...
> 
> CC590 - $775
> CC690 - $1,150
> ...


I would try and get the cash to buy the CC690... You already went with the best why not get the best for the center. The deal you are getting is a good one IMO. If you buy the CC590... I wouldn't be surprised if later you regretted not going all the way. Why not do it now and get it over with and know that you went all the way?:T:T


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

...+1


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

plcamp said:


> One question about subs...how does one go about adjusting the sub phase to assure it is correct vs mains? I would think this needs a continuous 5.1 channel test tone at about 80Hz, so you can signal both mains and sub at same time, then adjust phase of sub to maximize output? How have you folks done


 IMO, this is s good idea. You have the right idea, run a test tone at the crossover frequency, and adjust as necessary to get the most output. YPAO does not adjust phase, so this is probably the best way. The phase relationship isn't constant, but this should get you as close as you need. Fwiw, getting the phase adjusted right was one of the biggest improvements I made.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> IMO, this is s good idea. You have the right idea, run a test tone at the crossover frequency, and adjust as necessary to get the most output. YPAO does not adjust phase, so this is probably the best way. The phase relationship isn't constant, but this should get you as close as you need. Fwiw, getting the phase adjusted right was one of the biggest improvements I made.


I presume you have an SPL meter?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> I presume you have an SPL meter?


Make sure to set it to C weighting. Slow.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

ellisr63 said:


> I would try and get the cash to buy the CC690... You already went with the best why not get the best for the center. The deal you are getting is a good one IMO. If you buy the CC590... I wouldn't be surprised if later you regretted not going all the way. Why not do it now and get it over with and know that you went all the way?:T:T


+1 go big be happy regret not it will eat you alive.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

B- one said:


> +1 go big be happy regret not it will eat you alive.


And that folks, meets the definition of pithy. 

...


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## plcamp (May 14, 2014)

OK thanks all....I will let you know what happens


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

When I bought my Klipsch system I was put off by the size of the RC-64 and went with the RC-62.
The RC-62 is a great center channel speaker and sounds just fine with the RF-83's.
Even though I am very happy with the RC-62, I sit here and regularly kick myself for not getting the RC-64...just sayin'


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

chashint said:


> When I bought my Klipsch system I was put off by the size of the RC-64 and went with the RC-62. The RC-62 is a great center channel speaker and sounds just fine with the RF-83's. Even though I am very happy with the RC-62, I sit here and regularly kick myself for not getting the RC-64...just sayin'


That's my problem I went with the Rf-63's not the Rf-83. At least my back is happy.! Ps I wouldn't put your display on the speaker it's not designed for that.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

B- one said:


> Ps I wouldn't put your display on the speaker it's not designed for that.


What harm can come from doing so? The flat screen is light, the RC-64 II is built like a brick outhouse. See images in our photo album. The RC-64 II was purchased with using it as a TV stand in mind; dual purpose.

If concerned about magnetic interference, flat screens don't suffer from this malady in the same way as CRT televisions would.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I wouldn't put my display on top of my center channel either. I had a buddy build a custom stand for me that houses my center perfectly.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> I wouldn't put my display on top of my center channel either.


Okay, I get that you and others wouldn't do it.......but what you don't answer in your comment is the rational, why is it not a good thing to do?

FWIW, at the time of purchase, when I discussed using the RC-64 II as a flat screen stand, nobody had a reason why it would be a bad thing to do.


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## rawsawhd (Apr 10, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> Okay, I get that you and others wouldn't do it.......but what you don't answer in your comment is the rational, why is it not a good thing to do?
> 
> FWIW, at the time of purchase, when I discussed using the RC-64 II as a flat screen stand, nobody had a reason why it would be a bad thing to do.


Outside of possibly some vibration/moving issues or scratching, it doesn't matter if your TV is on the speakers. If its big and build well there shouldn't be issues. So if it suits your needs and thats where you want it, more power to you...


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## rawsawhd (Apr 10, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> Okay, I get that you and others wouldn't do it.......but what you don't answer in your comment is the rational, why is it not a good thing to do?
> 
> FWIW, at the time of purchase, when I discussed using the RC-64 II as a flat screen stand, nobody had a reason why it would be a bad thing to do.


On a side note, maybe I have a brain fart going on here or I'm just outta touch but what does "FWIW" mean????


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

rawsawhd said:


> On a side note, maybe I have a brain fart going on here or I'm just outta touch but what does "FWIW" mean????


Ha something I can answer for what it's worth


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## rawsawhd (Apr 10, 2014)

B- one said:


> Ha something I can answer for what it's worth


AHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :duh:


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

rawsawhd said:


> Outside of possibly some vibration/moving issues or scratching, it doesn't matter if your TV is on the speakers. If its big and build well there shouldn't be issues. So if it suits your needs and thats where you want it, more power to you...


Oh good. I don't have to worry about the Center Channel police showing up and citing us for CC abuse.

"For What It's Worth" (FWIW), if you look at our photo album, you'll notice lace under the flat screen stand. The wife has a thing for wood and no matter who's in possession on the finished wood, they will be condemned if the wood finish gets scratched. Just to be sure, there's lace under the flat screen stand and there's lace under the CC.


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## rawsawhd (Apr 10, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> Oh good. I don't have to worry about the Center Channel police showing up and citing us for CC abuse.
> 
> "For What It's Worth" (FWIW), if you look at our photo album, you'll notice lace under the flat screen stand. The wife has a thing for wood and no matter who's in possession on the finished wood, they will be condemned if the woof finish gets scratched. Just to be sure, there's lace under the flat screen stand and there's lace under the CC.


Ahh right there I have an issue. I wasnt gonna call the HT police on you but now I may have to on your wife. That lace between the slick surface of the speaker and TV could make it slide off onto the floor during loud bass levels. This in turn would force you to make the logical decision of going with a projector to prevent future damages. Its the smart thing to do.... For now I'd replace the lace with some stick on rubber feet...


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

rawsawhd said:


> That lace between the slick surface of the speaker and TV could make it slide off onto the floor during loud bass levels


I know you're teasing but to reassure and this is strictly to reassure and I'm not trying to be cute......the CC weights 52lbs and is flat on the lace and has over three square feet in direct contact with the lace surface and the flat screen w/stand adds an additional 59lbs for a total of 111lbs (combined weight of 35.5lbs/sqft) with all <80Hz bass managed over to the subwoofers.

If any damage should occur, I'll be happy to package the broken parts up and in original packaging, ship them to your house so you can say: "I told you so."

...

And I might add, the wife has made it clear, no projector and screen but, there's hope. When the 60" goes out, she's open to an 80" replacement.

...


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## rawsawhd (Apr 10, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> I know you're teasing but to reassure and this is strictly to reassure and I'm not trying to be cute......the CC weights 52lbs and is flat on the lace and has over three square feet in direct contact with the lace surface and the flat screen w/stand adds an additional 59lbs for a total of 111lbs (combined weight of 35.5lbs/sqft) with all <80Hz bass managed over to the subwoofers.
> 
> If any damage should occur, I'll be happy to package the broken parts up and in original packaging, ship them to your house so you can say: "I told you so."
> 
> ...


I am joking of course...... A simple test would be to stand next to the tv and push on the side of it to see if the lace makes it slide easier. Its similar to when you get a giant subwoofer delivered to your house and try to push it around, if you put a towel or sheet under it, it slides much easier for you. I'm just worried for you as any fellow HT aficionado would be. ;-) The rubber feet would pretty much eliminate all chances of it moving.

Its amazing to me the WAF on a projector and screen. You would think they'd be all for it. If you got a pulldown, the screen could disappear into its casing when not in use. Projectors are cheap now a days, small and would be put high up out of the way. The set up has "female thumbs up" written all over it.


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## rawsawhd (Apr 10, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> I know you're teasing but to reassure and this is strictly to reassure and I'm not trying to be cute......the CC weights 52lbs and is flat on the lace and has over three square feet in direct contact with the lace surface and the flat screen w/stand adds an additional 59lbs for a total of 111lbs (combined weight of 35.5lbs/sqft) with all <80Hz bass managed over to the subwoofers.
> 
> If any damage should occur, I'll be happy to package the broken parts up and in original packaging, ship them to your house so you can say: "I told you so."
> 
> ...


Last thing and I'll shut up. lol.. You could also use rubber drawer liners cut to fit (I've done this in the past) under any equipment/speaker/tv you or anyone might be worried about sliding around. Plus depending on the thickness you get the added benefit of some isolation so its an audio tweak too!!!!

https://www.google.com/#q=rubber+drawer+liners&tbm=shop


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Lace is all she'll put up with. Rubber is too utilitarian. We're old school out of the 50's. Regarding WAF, my battle is uphill all the way......one half-step at a time.

"Hi Honey.....I....."

"Don't you be talking to me about no "Hi Honey!"

I have no way of being able to share how tight our HT rig is as only through a personal exhibition will folks understand where our system is at.

(i try so hard to stay away from ego based comments as ego based comments are as subjective as the day is long)

Now, I have to hang stuff on the walls. What? And put holes in the wall? :rubeyes:...:yikes:


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## rawsawhd (Apr 10, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> Lace is all she'll put up with. Rubber is too utilitarian. We're old school out of the 50's. Regarding WAF, my battle is uphill all the way......one half-step at a time.
> 
> "Hi Honey.....I....."
> 
> ...


I have to laugh,, reminds me of my X wife a little. She just had to "woman" up the place. In the pics of the speakers I refinished you'll see a big water stain on top of the one. I dont think I had those 5.5's a month and she just had to put something on them, "a nice plant will do". Over fill it when watering it, spilled water sits under the pot for 2 days until I notice, *bam* ruined!!! But she had a fix!!!! If memory serves me correct it was lace doilies!!!! Dont get me started on the pictures, there had to be 20 family photos hanging in the living room. I had to duct tape them to the walls to stop them vibrating. She would yell at ME when they'd fall off during a movie!!!! 

Maybe you could "man cave" a spare bedroom? Put a steel entry door with double dead bolts in??? Lots of dark colors! Blacks! Blues! And Wood and steal everywhere! One big leather recliner in the center. 100" screen,,,,,,, *in voice of Tim Allen* "Whoo-whoo-whoo*


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> Okay, I get that you and others wouldn't do it.......but what you don't answer in your comment is the rational, why is it not a good thing to do? FWIW, at the time of purchase, when I discussed using the RC-64 II as a flat screen stand, nobody had a reason why it would be a bad thing to do.


Please note in my comment that I said "I wouldn't do it." I really don't have a reason other than as others have said it wasn't built and designed for that. Plus it really isn't hard to come up with alternatives such as mine. You seem very happy with setting things on top of your CC and if it works for you then so be it. I think we can settle this in house without involving the police.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> What harm can come from doing so? The flat screen is light, the RC-64 II is built like a brick outhouse. See images in our photo album. The RC-64 II was purchased with using it as a TV stand in mind; dual purpose. If concerned about magnetic interference, flat screens don't suffer from this malady in the same way as CRT televisions would.


I'm not sure anything could happen but at almost $3800 for the display I'm not taking the chance. Funny thing I think on another forum that klipsch doesn't recommend it as well, but to each there own.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> Please note in my comment that I said "I wouldn't do it." I really don't have a reason other than as others have said it wasn't built and designed for that.


No police. Thanks for the comment. I'm just making sure there hasn't been a double-blind study which says.....if I do what I'm doing, the continuum will end in six weeks.



B- one said:


> I'm not sure anything could happen but at almost $3800 for the display I'm not taking the chance. Funny thing I think on another forum that klipsch doesn't recommend it as well, but to each there own.


Thanks for the thought.

...:bigsmile:


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