# Amplifier and speaker relationship



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

Don't quiet know how else to say it, or if even this is the right area. 

I have speakers that are rated to handle 200 watts. I just recently replaced a receiver, that is rated 135 watts per channel I think all channels driven. Either way I notice my speakers sound better. Now the question. 

With an amp, and if so what size could I achieve even better sound out of my speakers?

I welcome all!!


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Its always better to have more power than less however not knowing your speaker specifications like Ohms and sensitivity its hard to give a good answer. Another thing is the ratings on many receivers are a bit misleading and rarely ever come even close to the "all channels driven" specifications.


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

The receiver is an Onkyo 809. The speakers ere def tech bp6. The receiver showed them at 6 ohms. And I believe according to def tech they are 91db


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I guess I should also add that I am barking on a sub build. Not that that has anything to do with this, but just to note. 
If I was going to go with an amp, that is if it would be worth it with this speakers, I would want to get one that would work with any other speaker, if I so chose to upgrade. If that's even possible.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

91db is quite efficient, the 809 is a great receiver and is one of only a handful of receivers that will get close to its rated output at about 110watts per channel all channels driven. Other factors to consider as to why your speakers sound better is that room EQ on many of the newer receivers does a great job correcting how they sound in a space thats rarely perfect. 

If you were to add an external amp it would be more for piece of mind, the main Left and Right channels would be the only necessary ones I would do. The Emotiva XPA200 would be a great choice and would be good for any other speakers you would use in the future.


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

Right now the surrounds with this receiver sound louder than they ever have in the past. Center also. 

I also couldn't see where I would ever need to push more power to anything other than my front mains. 

I know that if I did get upgrade my speakers with something like axiom M80 I would most likely benefit from the amp. 

I know I have had this lesson form this forum before that more power is always better as with DAC's. I was wandering if anyone would think with current setup I would actually notice a difference with the amp. 

Bearing in mind that this is more for bring out mid and high freq's. in my feeble mind.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

again it depends, do you like listening to movies at reference levels? (75db with peaks of around 90db)
Even at 110watts your speakers should be capable of going there without distortion from the amps in the receiver. That said releasing the power supply in the receiver of driving those two main channels can never hurt and would help reduce heat.


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

If you had the money would you go for the xpa-200 or the xpa-2


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

"if" I had the money the xpa-2 would be what I would get but the 200 is realistically enough.


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

So if a person had speakers that were rated 95 db and had power handling up to 400 watts the xpa-200 would still be more than adequate???


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

unless you have a huge room speakers that handle 400watts at 95db would be huge overkill. Ive got speakers that can do 400watts and I run a 300watt per ch amp on them and have never come close to maxing out the amp. even well past reference.


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

So what do we consider huge. 22'x 17'x12' vaulted. First off electrically I think I could hold my own, however electronically I think I have way to much to learn. 

I just would want to get all I can out of the speakers not necessarily pushing the amp to its limits. 


Side note if I would have waited two weeks I could have got my receiver $200 cheaper.


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

So here is another???? There are different amps. I guess tube and digital???

If that's correct, any reason one is better than another, or not an issue?


----------



## vann_d (Apr 7, 2009)

I'm building speakers that are realistically 98dB sensitive at 1W/1m and can handle 600W. Am I doing this because I want to send 600W to my speakers? No. They just happen to be high power, high sensitivity speakers that are very hi-fi and have the characteristics I like. I will likely not be sending more than a few 10s of watts to these speakers but they will produce more than adequate spl.

Keep in mind that a doubling of power will produce only 3dB of SPL increase. This means that you can get nearly everything out of a 300W speaker with only 150W. This also, of course, assumes that you are not clipping the amplifier or sending it into excessive distortion. 

That last point in itself is a reason why higher power amplifiers can make your speakers sound better. They can operate at a lower distortion to generate the SPL you require than your lower power amplifier if you are pushing the lower power amp's limits.

I would characterize your speakers as medium sensitivity, which means that a couple 10s of watts may not get you the SPL and low distortion you require but a 200-300W amp very well could.

I guess what I am saying is that, with your speakers, I would give them all they can handle power wise...


----------



## vann_d (Apr 7, 2009)

Audiodreamer said:


> So if a person had speakers that were rated 95 db and had power handling up to 400 watts the xpa-200 would still be more than adequate???


Easy math...

95db 1W/1m

Doubling distance = -6dB (not necessarily true in room but for illustration)

Assume listening position = 4m (13 feet) for big room

1W = 95-12 = 83 dB
2W = 86 dB
4W = 89 dB
8W = 92 dB
16W = 95 dB
32W = 98 dB
64W = 101 dB
128W = 104 dB
256W = 107 dB
512W = 110 dB @ 4m

So, in this case I would say yes the xpa-200 would likely give you 105 dB or more at the listening position with a 95 dB @ 1W/1m speaker. This is reference level capable...


----------



## vann_d (Apr 7, 2009)

Audiodreamer said:


> So here is another???? There are different amps. I guess tube and digital???
> 
> If that's correct, any reason one is better than another, or not an issue?


As an engineer, I will always select the solid state amplifier (there are few digital audio amps). The tube amplifiers and the SET amplifiers are selected by the audiophile romantics or those who prefer the "coloration" that they provide. I should amend my statement by saying that tube amplifiers can be true to the source but SET amps are notoriously non-linear in frequency response and add considerable "coloration" to the sound. Quality modern solid state amps are exceedingly linear and accurate in frequency response over a range far beyond audible limits.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Audiodreamer said:


> So what do we consider huge. 22'x 17'x12' vaulted.


No thats not a huge room, I agree that 200watts would be more than enough to power any speakers in that size room.


----------



## Wardsweb (Apr 2, 2010)

My mains in my home theater are 105dB efficient. I run each one with a 200 watt mono block. They don't "need" that kind of power in my room but provide clean power with a lot of headroom. 

You really should take into consideration how your speakers and amp(s) compliment each other and not just look at the power ratings. I have always worked to have synergy within my system. What works with it and not against it. Things like very high efficient speakers require really clean amplification. Any and I mean any noise in the signal path you will hear. From hums to hiss, these can be very unforgiving. Things like having enough power that I don't have to almost overdrive them to get the dynamics I want and at the same time without distortion or clipping. Distortion can fry an amp quick and cook your voice coils. 

In the car world you wil hear it as, there is no replacement for displacement. No one needs a car that will do 200mph or zero to 60 in three seconds, but having that kind of power allows you to work effortlessly using a fraction of the power on tap. Then again, if you need it, it's there.


----------



## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

91db means that reference level (105db) will take about 20w of power.

Your AVR's power rating is likely @8ohm. As ohms drop, power increases with current.


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

JerryLove said:


> 91db means that reference level (105db) will take about 20w of power.
> 
> Your AVR's power rating is likely @8ohm. As ohms drop, power increases with current.


So what I am understanding is that's reciever is more than fine for these speakers. It will put out 135 w. and it should easily put out 20 for that reference level. If that is more than sufficient why would one need an amp?


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

Wardsweb said:


> My mains in my home theater are 105dB efficient. I run each one with a 200 watt mono block. They don't "need" that kind of power in my room but provide clean power with a lot of headroom.
> 
> You really should take into consideration how your speakers and amp(s) compliment each other and not just look at the power ratings. I have always worked to have synergy within my system. What works with it and not against it. Things like very high efficient speakers require really clean amplification. Any and I mean any noise in the signal path you will hear. From hums to hiss, these can be very unforgiving. Things like having enough power that I don't have to almost overdrive them to get the dynamics I want and at the same time without distortion or clipping. Distortion can fry an amp quick and cook your voice coils.
> 
> In the car world you wil hear it as, there is no replacement for displacement. No one needs a car that will do 200mph or zero to 60 in three seconds, but having that kind of power allows you to work effortlessly using a fraction of the power on tap. Then again, if you need it, it's there.


Definitely a lot to swallow. So how does one know his speakers and any amp would compliment ?


----------



## Wardsweb (Apr 2, 2010)

Audiodreamer said:


> Definitely a lot to swallow. So how does one know his speakers and any amp would compliment ?


That my son is the $64 question. It is part science and part experience. Having a little more power than you speakers actually require, so it doesn't have to work so hard, has plenty of headroom, drives your speakers like a walk in the part, there by staying way below a threshold of noise, distortion or clipping. Part will come from years of listening to many speakers and many amps; solid state, tubes, digital, A, B, AB, D, tripath, etc... There are a lot of roads to audio nirvana.

If your speakers are bright, a tube amp and some solid state amps will tame the shrill. If your speakers are shy on bass, the right amp can get more out of them. It is a matter of finding the right fit. Not an easy task. Some guys spend more time looking for nirvana than actually listening. You're task is finding out how good is good enough. Balance sound and budget. Audio has one of the highest laws of diminishing returns I know of. My law of average is your typical budget can get you really quick to 80% of nirvana. Double your budget gets you to 90%. Each additional percent after that becomes exponential in cost. For most people, it isn't worth it working to squeeze out every last nuance of perfection. The only person who can make the determination is you and you are the only person who has to like your system.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

If its a quality amp (there are many affordable ones that are) they will work well with any speaker. Its the speaker that has the biggest effect on what you hear. So dont get to caught up in thinking that one amp over another will make it sound better. As long as your not under powering the speaker causing distortion you should not hear a difference between different amps in the same class.


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I know it's the speaker. And I most likely will be upgrading. And I most definitely not trying to reach that do called nirvana. But knowing that it can be better would I spend the money on an amp, or make sure I have the speaker I want first?


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Personally I would get the speakers you want first as the 809 is no slouch and in your case is going to power what you have without much if any issues.


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I noticed vann_d said he was building speakers. Any one else done this. Or figure it easier to buy already made. 

Just curious since I m Getting ready to do a sub build, how much more could it be to build some towers to give the sound I'm looking for?


----------



## Wardsweb (Apr 2, 2010)

Audiodreamer said:


> I noticed vann_d said he was building speakers. Any one else done this. Or figure it easier to buy already made.
> 
> Just curious since I m Getting ready to do a sub build, how much more could it be to build some towers to give the sound I'm looking for?


DIY is a whole new ball park. There are so many designs and drivers. If you haven't heard some different ones, picking the design for a sound you want, can be a shot in the dark. They can run a couple hundred or a couple thousand and you need wood working tools. Toss in crossover design and again you have a long road of education. 

Keep the 809 and hit up some stores to listen to as many speakers as you can. See if there are other guys in your area that will let you listen to their systems. Ask a lot of questions to determine what it is you like and don't like in sound. Then what part of the speaker creates it. Knowing that will help you make a better educated decision on what to buy or build.

My HT speakers are Pro Klipsch and my main two channel are high end DIY.


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

My problem with that is there is Best Buy magnolia( which I can't really count) and one other actual high end audio retailer. 

I've been in there and listened to speakers for probably more than twice what I spent on mine, and did not sound really any better. 

And then I hear another set that was about in the $20000 range. They sounded rich and detailed. And I for one don't have that kind of loot. They were B&W's. 

I've heard some focal's back when we had an ultimate electronics. They sounded great, was just dreaming at the time. Never even asked the price. Now within the last month found a dealer within 150 miles. My best guess the speakers are somewhere in the $1700-$3700 range. 

So based on that what does a person do ?

I've thought about Axiom Audio ( because I can 30 day audition in home) . They also have a forum on their website and the people that own any of there lineup pretty much swear that bang for the buck there wasn't a better speaker. Not that there is not. 

So where I am at, I spend $1500 audition these speakers, if I like them, I go no further. 
But I would still wonder could I build it myself for less? 
I can't find anything locally( unless library) but where does a person learn about what it takes to DIY?


----------



## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

Audiodreamer said:


> So what I am understanding is that's reciever is more than fine for these speakers. It will put out 135 w. and it should easily put out 20 for that reference level. If that is more than sufficient why would one need an amp?


Unless you both like very loud and sit far away (I should mention that 105 is @3 ft. Every doubling of distance costs you 3-6db depending on room; though depending on room, room-gain may increase the efficiency of your speakers as well)


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

vann_d said:


> I'm building speakers that are realistically 98dB sensitive at 1W/1m and can handle 600W. Am I doing this because I want to send 600W to my speakers? No. They just happen to be high power, high sensitivity speakers that are very hi-fi and have the characteristics I like. I will likely not be sending more than a few 10s of watts to these speakers but they will produce more than adequate spl.
> 
> Keep in mind that a doubling of power will produce only 3dB of SPL increase. This means that you can get nearly everything out of a 300W speaker with only 150W. This also, of course, assumes that you are not clipping the amplifier or sending it into excessive distortion.
> 
> ...


What do you mean a few (10s) of watts


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

When reference level is mentioned, what exactly are we referring to? I've seen 75db and 105db, how does correlate to the sensitivity of the speaker, and where does the linearity come in?


----------



## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

Reference level : http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-reference-level/

In studio: It's 85db with the ability to hit 105db peaks. 

Speaker sensitivity and speaker power tell you how loud a speaker can conceivably be driven.

Start with sensitivity. Let's say 90db @1w @1m

If you sat 3 ft from that speaker, a 1w amp could give you a 90db sound. 

Every time you double watts you get 3db. Every time you increase an order of magnitude (x10) watts you get 10db.

So if that 90db speaker could take 100w, and you used a 100w amp, you could get 110db from that speaker sitting 3ft away. (mind you this is continuious: most amps and speakers can go above their rated values in short bursts... "headroom").

Now you know about how loud the speaker is. The next thing to ask is "how loud will it be where I am sitting". That's harder to answer. 

First: the sensitivity rating sometimes lies. The room amplifies sound and sometimes that's not accounted for. So the effective sensitivity can be higher than listed. 

Also: you generally lose -3db to -6db every time you double your distance.

So if that 90db speaker with 100w was putting out 110db @3ft, but you are sitting 6ft away: you might experience 104db instead.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

To give you a better idea, Reference level is also the levels you should have at most decent movie theaters. In a home theater this is actually quite loud and generally most people keep it slightly lower. The other issue is that reference levels are across the entire frequency range so if you dont have adequate speakers that can handle at least 80-20,000Hz and a sub that can handle from 80Hz down to around 15Hz your not going to be able to reach those levels safely without distortion. It also depends on the size of your room as to if the speakers are capable to fill the space.
Lots to consider


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

> The other issue is that reference levels are across the entire frequency range so if you dont have adequate speakers that can handle at least 80-20,000Hz and a sub that can handle from 80Hz down to around 15Hz your not going to be able to reach those levels safely without distortion.


If then there is a speaker that says it has frequency range of 30-30k, how do we know how accurate this ?


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Well we have a great free tool called REW  It aolws you to see on your PC a graph of what your speakers are capable of in your room.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Audiodreamer said:


> If then there is a speaker that says it has frequency range of 30-30k, how do we know how accurate this ?


Hello,
It would be somewhat surprising if the speaker is rated from 30hz to 30kHz. There is a good amount of debate as to whether we can hear above 20khz and most speakers I have ever seen are specified up to 20khz and Recording Engineers rarely if ever include information that high.

In addition, as we age, it becomes harder and harder to even be able to hear information at 20khz. As for the AVR, the 809 is an excellent choice and should provide sufficient power to drive most speakers out there.

I have personally used outboard amplification for well over a decade to ensure that I never have to be concerned about being able to drive whatever speaker appeals to me to their full potential. This has been especially the case with the Martin Logan Electrostatic's that comprise my speaker array. The Mains and Surrounds can drop as low as 0.8 ohm.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> It would be somewhat surprising if the speaker is rated from 30hz to 30kHz. There is a good amount of debate as to whether we can hear above 20khz and most speakers I have ever seen are specified up to 20khz and Recording Engineers rarely if ever include information that high.
> 
> In addition, as we age, it becomes harder and harder to even be able to hear information at 20khz. As for the AVR, the 809 is an excellent choice and should provide sufficient power to drive most speakers out there.
> ...


At what would you figure outboard amplification was enough wattage per 2 channels?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Audiodreamer said:


> At what would you figure outboard amplification was enough wattage per 2 channels?


Hello,
The answer is truly predicated on what speakers are being used. A very wide swath of speakers will be quite compatible with the 809's internal amplifiers. However, if truly thinking of the current speakers as a stepping stone, purchasing a quality 2 Channel Amplifier is a stellar investment as they are virtually technology proof. I am still using the same 3 or 4 amplifiers I purchased over 10 years ago while going through a myriad of different AVR's and speakers. I tend to think anything from 125-200 true watts should be sufficient for most.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Power handling of 200 watts refers to a speakers ability to disparate heat. You will often see two numbers listed: peak and RMS. The RMS number (root mean square) is the one to follow when picking out an amp. RMS generally refers to a speakers ability to constantly handle a certain amount of power on a continuous basis. Peak refers to its ability to handle a short burst of energy over a small period of time.


----------

