# Consumer Amp vs Pro Amp



## yosturm (Apr 10, 2011)

Hello All,

I was just thinking about amplifiers and was wondering what is the difference between pro amps and consumer amps. Specifically, comparing something like the Onkyo-M-282 which is 100Wx2 @ 8 ohm with 0.08% THD for $230 vs a pro amp like the behringer-ep2000 which is 350Wx2 @ 8 ohm with 0.1% THD for $30 more ($260).

My question is whether the pro amp is better and the consumer amp is just overpriced, or if there is some sort of discernible difference. I know that in both cases you could spend more to get more but my understanding of amplifier basics is that you need large transformers and that a good amp can "double down" which I see happening a lot with pro amps, even inexpensive ones, but you have to spend over $1,000 for consumer electronics before you see this.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

yosturm said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I was just thinking about amplifiers and was wondering what is the difference between pro amps and consumer amps. Specifically, comparing something like the Onkyo-M-282 which is 100Wx2 @ 8 ohm with 0.08% THD for $230 vs a pro amp like the behringer-ep2000 which is 350Wx2 @ 8 ohm with 0.1% THD for $30 more ($260).
> 
> My question is whether the pro amp is better and the consumer amp is just overpriced, or if there is some sort of discernible difference. I know that in both cases you could spend more to get more but my understanding of amplifier basics is that you need large transformers and that a good amp can "double down" which I see happening a lot with pro amps, even inexpensive ones, but you have to spend over $1,000 for consumer electronics before you see this.


Hello,
This is a very debated subject. The one issue I find with Pro Amps is that the Fans are often quite audible.
With the Behringer, there are many who have substituted Fans that produce less noise. It is quite a popular Amplifier in both Professional and Home Theater due to the price.

Most of us here believe that, when Level Matched, Amplifiers will sound more or less identical. With more expensive Amplifiers you often do get superior Build Quality and sometimes greater stability into lower impedances. For me, I avoid Fans in all the Amplifiers I own. However, each one weighs close to 100 Pounds and are certainly not Energy Star Approved. The Behringer uses a Switching Mode Power Supply and is a good bit more Energy Efficient. 
Cheers,
JJ


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Another big difference between consumer and pro amps is unballanced vs ballanced inputs (rca or 1/4" vs XLR inputs) this can cause issues if your receiver does not output enough voltage to drive the amp to its correct output level.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2011)

I'm running a Crown XLS 402 and I was able to drive it with a old Yamaha (till it broke) that had RCA outs. Now I'm driving it with a Emotiva stereo pre-amp.

If you don't want to jump in to pro amps, but your trying to avoid massive brand markup.. This guy would probably be very hard to beat. http://emotiva.com/upa2.shtm


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## yosturm (Apr 10, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Another big difference between consumer and pro amps is unballanced vs ballanced inputs (rca or 1/4" vs XLR inputs) this can cause issues if your receiver does not output enough voltage to drive the amp to its correct output level.


Yea, I was also contemplating that one. I have a little experience with professional gear because I used to be in a band and I ran the equipment. And unless I buy a mixer with RCA inputs I would have to use a crossover cable which more than likely would not be as great because of mixing and matching the voltage from the receiver and the voltage that the amp would be expecting, which would change the noise floor.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

There are many options that fix that problem, you just need a line transformer or direct box as most call it in the industry.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Most pro amps need 1.4v of input to perform to their full capacity which many recievers can do. Also the Crown Drivecore series have RCA inputs for easy intergration with any reciever. http://www.bing.com/url?source=sear...pc=MAGW&ssIG=e7877adb189e4fddaccce5dafdce58e3


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Samson also makes amps that have both balanced and unbalanced inputs.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

yosturm said:


> Yea, I was also contemplating that one. I have a little experience with professional gear because I used to be in a band and I ran the equipment. And unless I buy a mixer with RCA inputs I would have to use a crossover cable which more than likely would not be as great because of mixing and matching the voltage from the receiver and the voltage that the amp would be expecting, which would change the noise floor.


Using a “crossover cable” has no effect on noise floors. The only issue is compatibility between the AVR and amplifier: If the AVR’s voltage output is sufficient to drive the amp to clipping, then you’re good to go. It’s only a problem if the amp requires more input voltage than the AVR can deliver, and you try to use a signal boosting device to increase up the AVR’s output. There’s no free lunch; artificially boosting the AVR’s signal level will boost its noise floor right along with it.

Regards,
Wayne


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## yosturm (Apr 10, 2011)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Using a “crossover cable” has no effect on noise floors. The only issue is compatibility between the AVR and amplifier: If the AVR’s voltage output is sufficient to drive the amp to clipping, then you’re good to go. It’s only a problem if the amp requires more input voltage than the AVR can deliver, and you try to use a signal boosting device to increase up the AVR’s output. There’s no free lunch; artificially boosting the AVR’s signal level will boost its noise floor right along with it.


That is actually what i was referring to, not the effects of use of the cable, but the mis-match which would cause the use of the cable.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

I'd add the Crown xls1000 into the mix. I've read quite a few positive reviews from owners on this little baby. I'd be please to own this one in my set up.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Indeed. I would prefer the Crown over the Behringer personally. Still cannot believe just how small it is.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

The Crown XLS 1000 Drivecore is Class D with a switching power supply. Hence, the small size and modest 8.6 lbs. weight. This amp has a lot of flexibility for various applications in home theater, including RCA unbalanced inputs and a robust crossover system. A lot of amp for $300.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
It really is. The whole Switching Mode Power Supplies were born from the European Union's Legislation pertaining to Power Efficiency. It is why European Brand Bang & Olfefsen were out ahead with their ICE Power Modules. In addition, Behringer is another European Based Company that brought out Switching Mode Amplifiers. In addition, England's Arcam's current line of AVR's and Amplifiers use them as well.

It really does appear that Class A and AB Amplifiers are an Endangered Species. At least from the vantage point of new Designs. At least for Companies that are European and or do a great deal of business there.
Cheers,
JJ


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## ma7rix13 (Sep 3, 2009)

I love the versatility of proamp setup for HT (power / price / flexibility). But I can't get over the ground loop hum that it created (switch from unbalanced to balanced inputs) and the inconveniences like manual power switching and loud fans (had to put in another room).


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

ma7rix13 said:


> I love the versatility of proamp setup for HT (power / price / flexibility). But I can't get over the ground loop hum that it created (switch from unbalanced to balanced inputs) and the inconveniences like manual power switching and loud fans (had to put in another room).


Hello,
Those are excellent points. Also welcome to HTS. Really glad to have you with us.
Cheers,
JJ


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

Sounds like all of the major points have been hit already. I would agree that if you can stand the looks and the noise of the fan, then there's nothing at all wrong with a PA amp. I myself bought a used Behringer A500 for under $100 and i couldn't be happier (it is fanless and looks a bit more elegant than typical PA amps, has plenty of power for my mains).


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

ma7rix13 said:


> I love the versatility of proamp setup for HT (power / price / flexibility). But I can't get over the ground loop hum that it created (switch from unbalanced to balanced inputs) and the inconveniences like manual power switching and loud fans (had to put in another room).


You can ebay an Adcom ACE-515 power condiditioner/switcher for under $100. It can switch amplifiers and even has delayed on and off sequencing for them.

Regards,
Wayne


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## ma7rix13 (Sep 3, 2009)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> You can ebay an Adcom ACE-515 power condiditioner/switcher for under $100. It can switch amplifiers and even has delayed on and off sequencing for them.
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


Thanks Mr. Pflughaupt, never knew that existed. 

I did forget to mention the line balancing issue as well. The whole experience was a huge turn off into this subculture. I did about 9 months of research for my first HT sub build on HTS and Audioholics, got all the designs, bought the sub and a EP2000, plugged it in and heard a little bass and huge hum. Then researched some specific questions and found out I needed Sampson S-Converts, unbalanced to balanced adaptors, or DCX2469, Jensen Isolators, or FMODs etc. etc. And could never pull the trigger on the Isolators due to conflicting reports on performance and other downstream issues.

Looking back, I don't know how I missed all the knowledge and lessons learned on line balancing and ground loops, but, you live and learn.

Being an engineer, I didn't give up and took it as a challenge, but I could easily see most potential 'sub-culture customers' immediately turned away from the very thought of going down this path.

Sorry, had to rant a little... :hissyfit:


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## BrianAbington (Mar 19, 2008)

I am quite interested in the new behringer Inuke series amps. I know that a lot of people have scoffed at them and assume there is no way its a powerful amp because it weighs 7 lbs. 

Things are going to be changing so much as our energy prices keep rising. 

Class D and T will become much more common.


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## ninjawhiteboy12 (Dec 19, 2011)

I also have been looking at the Crown XLS Series and it seems to have a pretty good number of features and good output for it's price. I have read a few reviews saying it absolutely kills the XTi series on the lows and bass impact. 

The Behringer Inuke series looked good to me, but I was warned against it by a few others I talked to, is there a reason or is Behringer just looked down apon compared to more expensive products?


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

I've heard that Behringer has quality control issues. That being said, the old and used A500 I got off of ebay a while back runs like a champ and sounds great. If I were after a pro amp, I'd definitely consider the iNUKE series with built in DSP. Immensely more functionality than the simple crossover slopes the Crown drivecore amps have.


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## parsley (Mar 23, 2007)

ma7rix13 said:


> I did forget to mention the line balancing issue as well. The whole experience was a huge turn off into this subculture. I did about 9 months of research for my first HT sub build on HTS and Audioholics, got all the designs, bought the sub and a EP2000, plugged it in and heard a little bass and huge hum. Then researched some specific questions and found out I needed Sampson S-Converts, unbalanced to balanced adaptors, or DCX2469, Jensen Isolators, or FMODs etc. etc. And could never pull the trigger on the Isolators due to conflicting reports on performance and other downstream issues.


Did you try making an adapter to just use the balanced signals and avoid joining the grounds? Wire (sub+ from preamp) to (xlr +ve,2 of amp) and (sub gnd from preamp) to (xlr -ve,3 of amp) and just don't connect (xlr gnd,1 of amp) at all? I can't promise it'll help - it depends on whether the Behringer inputs are floating.
ps this is from memory, so I could be wrong.


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