# Basic AVR Question - Analog Audio Conversion



## kcbluesman (Nov 24, 2013)

Hello. New member here. I'm fairly knowledgeable about 2 channel audio, but not so much when it comes to home theater/multi-channel.

I'm just starting to think about upgrading our ancient HT system (which, by the way, sounds pretty good to me from an audio standpoint). Ideally, I will be able to continue to use it as a high-quality 2 channel (stereo) audio system as well as improve its multichannel audio and video performance.

In doing some "groundwork" research and reading, I've been told that most modern AV receivers convert analog audio input to digital, and that this has become (or is quickly becoming) the industry norm. I've googled the topic, but found very little on it. Seems like it would be something about which there would be a lot of discussion, but no luck. And when looking at specs on these units, it does not seem to be addressed.

I was hoping to find out if this really is the case...and if so, why? It just doesn't make any sense to me to convert it to digital and then back again. What would be the benefit?

I would guess that it has to do with the focus of these receivers on multi-channel formats? But even so, it would seem to me that if one wanted to be able to use one's home theater system for high-quality stereo audio as well as AV media, such a conversion would not be helpful...and in fact might be detrimental to sound quality?

If true, does it mean that the marketplace is becoming clearly split between two channel stereo systems on one side of a line, and multi-channel AV systems on the other? Have the manufacturers just decided that there isn't enough value in accommodating traditional stereo input components?

Thanks! I look forward to learning.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

1. It is increasingly common to digitize analog inputs, especially in less expensive AVRs.
2. The reason is that there are fewer customers with high quality analog sources, especially for the less expensive AVRs.
3. Another reason is to make use of facilities like bass management and room correction.
4. The facility still exists in some AVRs and preamp/processors.


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## kcbluesman (Nov 24, 2013)

Thanks for the response.

So, can I assume that it must be easier/less costly to just convert everything than it is to provide an analog signal path? This is counter-intuitive to me, but again, it's probably because I don't have a good understanding of AVR topology. I would have thought that since the signal is ultimately analog before it hits the outputs (right?), it would be easier not to convert it (twice) just to send it out the same way it came in. 

With my long interest in stereo equipment, I've always taken the view that the fewer the components and conversions in the signal chain, the better. Perhaps this isn't so much the case with home theater gear? I'll have to learn more about this topic, as I will want to be able to connect my turntable (with phono amp, as necessary) and CD transport/DAC to my home theater system while maintaining good sound quality.

Unless someone can educate me a bit more on this subject, I'm going to assume that with my interest in sound quality and two-channel inputs, I should be seeking out a home theater receiver (or preamp/processor) which provides analog signal paths. Related to that assumption - are there any inherent downsides to this capability when listening to two channel audio (plus subwoofer) thru an AVR? 

Also, how do I know if a particular AVR digitizes its analog input? This doesn't seem to be addressed in the standard specifications that I've seen?

Final question...should I be posting these types of questions in a different forum? While I VERY MUCH appreciate your response, I had hoped for more input...and am surprised by the lack of same. Perhaps my questions aren't good ones, but I've done a lot of reading and research already and can't get these basic issues figured out.


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## kcbluesman (Nov 24, 2013)

Maybe I should approach this another way...

If my primary objective is a home theater system which performs as well when used as a 2.1 music system as it does when operating as a 5.1 music and video system, should I limit my choices for an AVR (or preamp/processor) to those that provide analog signal paths for analog audio input? Are there any other key considerations that I should be aware of, given my objective? And, are there any manufacturers who focus on customers with my objective? 

If it helps, here are existing the components I intend to keep in the system:


Rotel 1075 three channel power amp
Rega Planar 3 turntable
Sony BDP-S1000ES DVD/Bluray player
Pioneer Elite DV45, operating as CD transport, paired with Maverick D2 DAC

Currently, we only use our existing system for movies (DVD/Bluray) and music. We would like to be able to use Netflix and other Internet-based content services in the future...this is a separate topic for me to get educated about. We will not be using cable or similar terrestrial content services.


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## Dougme57 (Sep 4, 2013)

My main rig is truly a family entertainment center/music center for me. Here are the main components:

Onkyo 708 Receiver
CabeleBox/DVR
X-Box
Blu-Ray/DVD
Roku

All video is run to a ceiling mount projector and onto a 100" screen.

The PC is for music only with my entire collection stored as FLAC files (about 1200 discs). While I can surf on it with chrome no one else touches it and it is a stripped down off lease, small form Lenovo from www.tigerdirect.com. I have 2 1TB external hard drives for my music and keep another backup at my office. I use JRiver to access and play what ever I want, whenever I want it. From the PC I have an external sound card (creative) and run a toslink to my Onkyo. This lets the Onkyo act as the DAC and it has Burr-Brown DAC's on each channel. I run HDMI from PC to Onkyo for surfing, youtube, etc.

I know I would have "better sound" with a dedicated pre-amp, high end DAC, etc. But it sounds pretty good, so simple to use and you can play anything on a whim. 

The cable and the Roku play hi-def and 5.1 and my kids say their x-box setup is as good as they have seen. 

Refurb Onkyo, refurb Roku, open box blu-ray, homeade screen and a $600 projector. in addition about $159 for PC, $59 for card. monoprice wires and adapters and I have a low budget system I love!


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## kcbluesman (Nov 24, 2013)

Glad you're happy with what you've built.

Any suggestions on how to get some answers to the questions I've posed?


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## Dougme57 (Sep 4, 2013)

I apologize, thought I did. My AVR takes the digital signal from my soundcard via toslink and converts it to analog before sending it to the speakers. I use this for 2 channel music only.

Your blu-ray will send netflix, youtube or disc material to your AVR via HDMI so the conversion will be done by the blu-ray.

You can always look at the Oppo and mutichannel analog, I prefer the simplicity though and I do not listen to muti-channel audio unless it is on blu-ray.


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## kcbluesman (Nov 24, 2013)

I must be even less knowledgeable about the world of home theater than I realized! I can't seem to link up my questions to your answers.

From what I can see, you use a media server for all your music content....in other words, you are starting out digital. This is not my situation. Although I do use digitally stored music as one source (lossless files), my questions are primarily focused around analog sources (specifically, a turntable, a CD player and a DAC).

I certainly respect your decision to simplify your sytem, and appreciate you sharing it. But with an LP collection of nearly 2000 albums (and still growing!), this is not an option for me. As for my DAC...I guess I could throw it away and let the DAC in the AVR or pre/processor handle it, but I would want to do that as a matter of choice - because the DAC in the AVR provides better sound quality - rather than being forced to do so because the AVR takes digital input only, or because it converts all analog input to digital.


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## Dougme57 (Sep 4, 2013)

I understand now, yes most of what I listen to starts as digital. I used to run from a cd to a DAC and when I got my new receiver I got my wife to listen to several different tracks. She is a musician and has perfect pitch with no understanding of electronics. I listen to rock, jazz soundtracks and a little classical and she chose (unknowingly) the dac's in my receiver every time. I sold my external DAC and did not look back.

Mid level receivers and up have phono inputs, mine does but i do not have a turntable at this time. I have one friend that uses his AVR's phono inputs and he is fine with that. My best friend is a musician and uses a pre-amp, Snell speakers and vinyl and would probably never own an AVR.

Someone that incorporates vinyl into their home theater would be much more qualified to answer this than me. I wish you luck and hope I did not waste your time.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

kcbluesman said:


> I must be even less knowledgeable about the world of home theater than I realized! I can't seem to link up my questions to your answers.
> 
> From what I can see, you use a media server for all your music content....in other words, you are starting out digital. This is not my situation. Although I do use digitally stored music as one source (lossless files), my questions are primarily focused around analog sources (specifically, a turntable, a CD player and a DAC).
> 
> I certainly respect your decision to simplify your sytem, and appreciate you sharing it. But with an LP collection of nearly 2000 albums (and still growing!), this is not an option for me. As for my DAC...I guess I could throw it away and let the DAC in the AVR or pre/processor handle it, but I would want to do that as a matter of choice - because the DAC in the AVR provides better sound quality - rather than being forced to do so because the AVR takes digital input only, or because it converts all analog input to digital.


Hello,
With a situation like yours, I think the best way forward would be to run separate systems for music and HT. This is almost exactly my younger brother's situation and that is what he did. 
Kal nailed the answers. 

To me, the most salient point is bass management as this has always been what has been the most difficult to handle. SACD and DVD-A in the early days was sans HDMI and instead required running 6 RCA's and roughly 52 other cables. To get the "Real Deal Holyfield" you needed an AVR with a MCH input that does precisely what you would need should you do a Swiss Army Knife solution; a complete analog bypass.

The bypass was great in theory, but if using a sub/sat system I think it would have been a disaster. While a rudimentary bass management system was eventually offered on SACD/DVD-A spinners most of the solutions utterly defeated the purpose of high rez audio. On the sunny side of the street, my unabashed dorkdom for MCH DSD led me down the path of using fairly capable front and surround speakers capable of playing down to at least 60hz.

An HT like mine would work quite well for simply adding a TT and making sure playback is stripped of any processing. However, I would not reckon it to be a cost effective solution. Thankfully with vinyl you are strictly focusing on 2 channel, but the best solution remains using mains that are as capable of playing well below 80hz. This is often a dividing point as most subwoofers are in their wheelhouse at this frequency and lower and in theory it is here where bass becomes omnidirectional. 

Many solid HT speakers do not go much lower than 80hz and getting a speaker that is capable of playing lower adds to both the cost and size of the speaker ideally needed. Same goes for getting an AVR that offers a "Pure Direct" or whatever marketingspeak of the year for a bypass.
Cheers,
JJ


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## cwall99 (Oct 15, 2008)

kcbluesman said:


> In doing some "groundwork" research and reading, I've been told that most modern AV receivers convert analog audio input to digital, and that this has become (or is quickly becoming) the industry norm. I've googled the topic, but found very little on it. Seems like it would be something about which there would be a lot of discussion, but no luck. And when looking at specs on these units, it does not seem to be addressed.


I believe that another poster gave you a pretty good answer on this: essentially, converting the signal to digital allows the AVR to apply digital signal processing effects (bass management, different sound modes, etc...) to your audio.



kcbluesman said:


> I was hoping to find out if this really is the case...and if so, why? It just doesn't make any sense to me to convert it to digital and then back again. What would be the benefit?


OK, we've covered that. Here's the thing, though... most decent AVRs have a pure stereo mode (on my Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS AVR, it's called Stream Direct, that, I believe, routes two-channel inputs so they either avoid as much DSP circuitry as possible - for digital source materials or, it looks like, at least to me, for analog sources, you can, indeed, select a pure analog signal path. I'm listening to it right now, and I gotta say, I actually do like the sound a little better when it gets digitized. The pure analog mode just sounds a little dead.



kcbluesman said:


> I would guess that it has to do with the focus of these receivers on multi-channel formats? But even so, it would seem to me that if one wanted to be able to use one's home theater system for high-quality stereo audio as well as AV media, such a conversion would not be helpful...and in fact might be detrimental to sound quality?
> 
> If true, does it mean that the marketplace is becoming clearly split between two channel stereo systems on one side of a line, and multi-channel AV systems on the other? Have the manufacturers just decided that there isn't enough value in accommodating traditional stereo input components?
> 
> Thanks! I look forward to learning.


A good AVR (e.g. Pioneer Elite, better Denons, Yamahas, etc...) should perform well irrespective of whether it's being fed a two-channel or multi-channel source. Yes, you have a lot more multi-channel content in the world of movies and television, but in the world of music, two-channel still reigns, so it doesn't make a lot of sense for AVR manufacturers to completely abandon good quality stereo reproduction.


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