# Changing out my Power Cable's



## nathometheatre (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm new to this site, and am still learning my way around as to how to view different post and threads. So please be patient with me. That being said, I've looked around trying to find specific info on the effectiveness of using deferent power cables. What started this interest, is a friend of mine and I were talking the other day, as I was telling him I just bought a Panamax M5100 Power Conditioner for my main Home Theatre. He immediately told me that if I really wanted to notice a significant difference as to performance, he suggested I try changing out my power cables. Such as the power cable that came with my Denon 4308ci for instance. He told me to check out PS Audio and that he owned several of these cables, and he couldn't believe the difference it made in his system. He said he'd sell them to me for cheap if I wanted them, as he had to sell one of his HT systems. It took me long enough to buy in to the whole power conditioner concept, as some sware by them. And now, it's about the actual power cables being of interest. If I missed a thread that covers this info, I apologize. But, I'd really like to know what you guys/gals think about changing out the cables that came with my Denon receiver and Denon Blu Ray player (and anything else if it's really a significant advantage). Any feedback would be much appreciated.


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

Hey Kevin,
My opinion,... much like the speaker cable debate. Unless the Denon power cable is undersized for the load it is intended to carry, I don't see how an expensive power cord could make a noticeable performance difference. I could see, if you are willing to pay for it, an aesthetically pleasing difference if the cord is where you can see it. I can also see that you could get a better quality built power cord. But again, unless there is a manufacturing defect or some other discrepancy with the Denon cord I really do not believe you would hear a difference. But that's just me :coocoo:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I agree... I believe the expensive power cables are nothing more than snake oil. Save your money and spend it on a sub or speakers, which _*really can make a huge difference*_ (not saying you need speakers, just making a point about using your money for something that can make a difference).

I believe I pointed you to a thread via email earlier... but I particular wanted you to notice this post. Not that it is the end all of posts, but a good point is made.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yup, agree with above. You could probably build your own power cable for the receiver for alot less money than buying one. The Bluray player cord will not make any difference as the draw is minimal to say the least.
If your really concerned about having enough power for your gear running a dedicated circuit would be a far more beneficial investment.


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> He immediately told me that if I really wanted to notice a significant difference as to performance, he suggested I try changing out my power cables.


Let me ask you this. If the manufacturer of a receiver could realize a _significant difference as to performance_ by simply using a different power cord, don't you think they would include it as standard equipment?

brucek


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## nathometheatre (Feb 17, 2009)

brucek said:


> don't you think they would include it as standard equipment?
> 
> brucek


In a perfect world, I'd say yes to your question. But, we don't live in a perfect world now do we.


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## realmaximus (Apr 19, 2009)

To those of you that aren't believers in modified, aftermarket powercords, answer this question: 
Have you tried them, and actually taken the time to test and compare them? If so, how many different PCs did you try before giving up? There are SO many GREAT products and far more BAD. If you haven't tried numerous different PCs, and its all conjecture, then why solidify an opinion without first hand experience? 

Myself and several other friends have noticed HUGE performance increases in using high grade PCs, as well as speaker cables and interconnects. We don't stand alone. Many thousands of other people swear by their aftermarket cables as well. Myself and friends alone have tried more than a dozen different powercords over the years, and each one has its own sonic characteristics. Some produce a larger soundstage. Other PCs produce a more forward or a more layed back sound. Other PCs provide a much quicker response with greater attack, often more accurate, removing veils that are present with the stock PC. By trying different aftermarket cables, you can custom tailor the sound to fit your ears precisely. Its a beautiful thing.

For those of you that can't hear the difference, maybe its a blessing, you won't find a need to spend the extra money! LOL!


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Can you offer any explanation as to why you might be getting a difference? I actually have tried to measure differences with power cables that claimed noise level and dynamic improvements and could find none. I also have done extensive listening tests and could never detect a difference. I can find no plausible explanation for why there might be a difference in any but the most extreme cases of underdesign.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

realmaximus said:


> For those of you that can't hear the difference, maybe its a blessing, you won't find a need to spend the extra money! LOL!


Or your just trying to convince yourselves that spending the extra cash was worthwhile where in reality it makes no difference.


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## nathometheatre (Feb 17, 2009)

Thanks for the link Sonnie. For my home theatre needs, I already have a pretty nice system. And, if my buddy is willing to let me demo several of his hi-end cables (which won't cost me a dime), then I guess I'll have to determine this for myself. As to whether it's snake oil or not, it's obviously been a long going debate as to whether it's true or false. As for putting money in to speakers, I'd do this long before I'd put that same money into cables. I think I've got my speakers finally covered, as I've replaced my speakers (and receiver) many times over. For Home Theatre (which is what I use my system for 95% of the time) I've found that my current set up sounds very good for my size room. It's that "little extra tweak" we home theatre enthusiast continue to pursue to better our systems performance. It's half the fun!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I have learned to be very cautious about differences that I "think" I hear. Spending an extra $10, $100, $1000 on a power cable might very well skew my thinking so that I can justify spending the extra money. 

There have been listening tests that I have read about where people were told that the superior cable XYZ or superior amp XYZ was being used, however, the very same previous cable or amp was actually being used again. Nonetheless, because they were told the superior XYZ cable or amp was being used, they perceived a difference. If I were a betting man (I am not), I would be willing to bet that 100% of those people claiming they hear a difference in power cords are merely perceiving a difference, unless there was somehow something mysteriously flawed with their original power cord.

I remember contacting Velodyne shortly after I purchased my HGS-15 many moons ago. I was connected with the techs who actually design the units. I was discussing a few things with the guy and mentioned changing out the power cord to a heavy duty cord. He asked why I would want to change out the power cord, explaining that if there were any improvement by adding a different power cord, they would have done so. Those guys up there are scientists... they have thoroughly studied this stuff.

If someone wants to spend money on something that makes them think they hear a difference or they perceive to hear a difference, then I suppose that is their option. As for me, I'll stick to spending my money on things I know for a fact can make a difference. :T


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Power cables are easy to double blind test. Get a helper to randomly switch them while you listen to the same recording for each test. Do it is such a way that you don't know which is which and the order is random using a number of trials. If you can reliably tell the difference use the one that you think sounds better. Most likely you will not be able to do any better than flipping a coin.


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

lcaillo said:


> Power cables are easy to double blind test. Get a helper to randomly switch them while you listen to the same recording for each test. Do it is such a way that you don't know which is which and the order is random using a number of trials. If you can reliably tell the difference use the one that you think sounds better. Most likely you will not be able to do any better than flipping a coin.


The hardest part of evaluating any change is the bias of knowing which item is connected, getting someone else to do the changes is essential.
I would suggest finding cables which are thinner than either the manufacturers or the custom ones and see if any difference is consistantly heard between the three.
You would need to make a scoresheet with items graded from, say 1 to 5, and label them with attributes like - prescence. sound stage width, clarity etc.
A lot of listening and I am sure we would all like to see the results.

As said before: If you are happy that it improves the sound then that is all you need to do. In the long run it's your listening pleasure you are after!


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## levesquejc (Mar 30, 2009)

I am going thru my power cords now to get my theater back up and running after a remodel. I view pcs as components in and of themselves; as they have characteristics of their own. They can affect the flow of the electrical current thru the cable in many ways. At minimum capacitance, inductance, resistance, etc. Like speaker cable each brings difference characteristics to the table. When we listen to these cables connected to our systems we are listening to the "interaction" of these characteristics across the audio spectrum.
That's why we are told to take it home and "listen". 
John:bigsmile:


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

levesquejc said:


> I view pcs as components in and of themselves; as they have characteristics of their own. They can affect the flow of the electrical current thru the cable in many ways. At minimum capacitance, inductance, resistance, etc.


While in an absolute sense, this is true, it seems to me that it is neccesary to identify how these characteristics vary, how they interact with the sound of a system, and at what point they become significant. Has anyone documented any effects? These factors are rather easy to measure compared to sound quality differences and it seems that it would be a good place to start. If any of the vendors of these power cords would like me to make some measurements to test their claims, I would be happy to do so, but I have not been able to detect them in the past. Maybe with their expert guidance I can find something?



levesquejc said:


> That's why we are told to take it home and "listen".
> John:bigsmile:


Are you doing objective listening tests that isolate the well-known psychological variables such as expectation bias and placebo effect?


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> I am going thru my power cords now to get my theater back up and running after a remodel. I view pcs as components in and of themselves; as they have characteristics of their own. They can affect the flow of the electrical current thru the cable in many ways. At minimum capacitance, inductance, resistance, etc.


Hopefully, you've replaced the fifty feet of standard electrical cable back to your service panel with cable offering the same characteristics.

brucek


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

brucek said:


> Hopefully, you've replaced the fifty feet of standard electrical cable back to your service panel with cable offering the same characteristics.
> 
> brucek


I don't think that is good enough. You really should demand the power company run a dedicated line for you straight back the power station. :R


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

robbo266317 said:


> I don't think that is good enough. You really should demand the power company run a dedicated line for you straight back the power station. :R


I tried to get them to do it, but they asked me who did I think I was. :dontknow:


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## levesquejc (Mar 30, 2009)

Not sure that's necessary; I installed balanced power transformers in the wall near the av center... so transmission line be what they may; once they get to my house and near my equipment - WATCH OUT- I'm going to tame you! A less expensive and significant impact can still be made with PS power outlet. I was redesigning the whole rool from scratch- running in-wall speaker wire, under floor cables, and with the horrible ac where I live something had to be done with the incoming line.
Once you tame it; keep it tame to the device. Should be fine from there. All electrical components can handle some degree of variance; question is how much and to what effect. I get so much bad vlotage at certain times of the day, I can hear my coffee machine transformer hum very loudly; that's mechanical vibration caused by the bad electrical signal coming into the house. The coffee machaine doesn't need clean power- but, my audio does.
John


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

robbo266317 said:


> I don't think that is good enough. You really should demand the power company run a dedicated line for you straight back the power station. :R


Well, actually the transformer outside your house provides the low output impedance that is required to do a proper job of supplying ample current. The problem is that you have quite a few feet of electrical wire from the pole, through the service panel, and through the walls until you get to the wall socket that your equipment is plugged into. This in-line impedance can actually be lowered with a proper transformer local at your equipment, but the cost can be quite high (something like the Bryston Torus units or similar are quite good). It has to be a large low output impedance transformer that will be able to provide a lot of instantaneous current.

Even replacing the rather limp 99 cent wall receptacles that most people use at their equipment can help quite a bit in lowering the impedance to your equipment. Or, installing dedicated lines are a big help by reducing the number of connections used in regular circuits.

As far as the effect of after market power cords - forget it.

brucek


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

How did you know there is a transformer outside my house? Have you been looking me up on Google earth. :joke:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

brucek said:


> Even replacing the rather limp 99 cent wall receptacles that most people use at their equipment can help quite a bit in lowering the impedance to your equipment. Or, installing dedicated lines are a big help by reducing the number of connections used in regular circuits.
> 
> brucek


Agreed, Using Hospital grade receptacles is a good upgrade and just using some good Tripe Lite Isobars is a good investment you dont have to break the bank.


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## nathometheatre (Feb 17, 2009)

brucek said:


> Hopefully, you've replaced the fifty feet of standard electrical cable back to your service panel with cable offering the same characteristics.
> 
> brucek


I think you make a very valid point here brucek, and honestly I've never really thought about the quality of power coming into my theatre from outside (if this is what you're referring too). Now for the beginner question regarding this very concern, as I truely have "0" experience in this arena :scratch:. How can I find out what the quality of clean/dirty power (for a better lack of words) is, coming in to my home? Whether this weighs in on the issue, I do live right in front of the main power station (surrounded with 10' concrete walls) with the transponder also right behind my home.


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> How can I find out what the quality of clean/dirty power (for a better lack of words) is, coming in to my home?


The idea that there is something fundamentally wrong with the AC power that enters our homes is usually unfounded. Most power that enters homes today is quite well regulated and relatively free from noise. It's human nature to assume that an expensive gadget will somehow transform and improve our audio and video systems. The exotic power cord, in my opinion, is at the top of the list of devices you shouldn't spend your money on.

Anyway, probably your best bang for buck would be a dedicated circuit.

brucek


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## realmaximus (Apr 19, 2009)

Kevin, I agree that swapping out your 99cent outlet for a high quality one will improve your sound. In _my experience_, not nearly as much as the "right" powercord however. I noticed a slight improvement in swapping my cheap receptacle out, but noticed HUGE improvements by switching from stock powecord to either PS Audio's Plus or Statement pcs. The bass impact is night and day. There is no way you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. You would seriously need to be partially deaf not to notice (no disrespect intended).

So, those of you that still don't believe it, thinking its a placebo effect, do yourself a favor and invest in a PS Audio xtreme Plus or Statement pc. The difference is remarkable. The only weakness to these powercords is the transients are sluggish. You will notice this pc is more layed back, the vocals are less centered. On the otherhand, the L-10 or L-9 made from litz copper, by BPT's Chris Hoff is brilliant. This is the quickest most accurate pc I have ever experienced, hence the result of me owning 3 of them. There is no bass impact with these however. I have 3 L-10s, one for my power conditioner, one for my receiver and one for my player. My music is simply more real, more alive with these pcs in place. No question about it.

I have tried these pcs on many different pieces of equipment, always noticing a difference, an improvement in virtually every situation. I admit I have owned other pcs that made very little difference. This is why I asked the nay sayers earlier, how many different pcs have you tried?

As far as the thinking, "you're only as good as your weakest link", I somewhat agree with that. Its true you will be limited in fully achieving your maximum potential, if only one or two of your pieces have the pcs, the interconnects, the speaker cable, the power conditioner, etc. However in response to that statement, it was best said by an audio mixing engineer I crossed paths with... Imagine your pieces of equipment and their respective cabling as dirty glass window panes. If you have say, three pieces of equipment (3 dirty windows), and you only clean one the panes of glass, what you are looking through is still difficult to see, but your site will noticeably improve with only two dirty panes remaining. If you were to clean two panes of glass, it will still be difficult to fully see what is on the other side, but your vision will be much improved. If you however clean ALL three of the panes of glass, your vision will be dramatically improved and you will be able to see everything perfectly clear. 

This is the perfect analogy. Yes, until you've replaced every weakness in your arrangement, maximum benefit will not be reached, however every weak component or cable that is replaced brings you that much closer to perfection!

The pcs I have listed above have in some cases, shown greater impact than switching out some cd or dvd players, or even speakers for that matter! Every situation is different, as everyone has different equipment, combinations of gear, and different room dynamics. However, with an open mind, I do not believe anyone wouldn't hear some difference with those pcs I have listed above.

Best regards to all!
Rob :yay2:


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## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

We did this a while back, when I worked in a hifi store.

We set up a Lyngdorf TDAI2200+ on set of B&W 801 speakers. We did this because the TDAI is reportedly very sensitive to power cords, and the B&W is the obvious monitor choice, seeing that alot of high-end studios use these. We also used a Lyngdorf CD-1 as a transport.

The room itself is one of the best listening rooms for teh 801s. We've had representatives from B&W over and they said it's one of the best rooms outside of their dedicated studios they've heard. The room is large and relatively well damped, and at night after closing it's very quiet.

We had a very persistend customer who was burning for the PC issue, so we had him over with a selection of power cords (3 or 4, I can't remember). We also used the ones that came with the equipment, along with the thinnest, cheapest ones we could find.

We hid the equipment behind a sheet of fabrick, and made sure we switched equipment off and unplugged the cables, even if we just reinserted the same cable. The store is in a shopping center, so we suspected quite dirty power, so we also tried a Monster powercenter to filter the incoming power.

I couldn't find the spreadsheet right now, but the results were such that we might as well have used a random number generator. Many times I could have SWORN I heard huge differences, and it turned out to be the same cable I had just heard. One cable I was sure were alot better than the others turned out to be the cheapest thin cable. It was quite enlightening, actually, and the customer even had to concede to the facts that he couldn't pick either one of the cables in a truly blind test.

I'm not saying YOU cannot hear a difference in power cables, but I can't, and neither could the 10 or so hifi enthusiasts present at this blind test.


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

To be serious, for a change, I feel that doing double blind tests as atledreier has done is the only way to say if it is worth the cost, or if it is purely snake oil. 
In any amplifier/receiver the mains comes in and is immediately converted to DC. 
If the power cables made a difference you would be able to measure it on the DC rails as noise or supply rail droop under load.
If this noise/droop was an issue then it would be a relatively simple task to replace the transformer, rectifier and capacitors with ones of superior performance and achieve far better results than spending money on expensive power cables.


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## nathometheatre (Feb 17, 2009)

Sonnie,
We began our test today (session 1 for a reference).
Well, just when I was nearly convinced that power cables don't make a difference, my friend finally made his way over another friend of mine's house today with 3 different power cables. My friends system we tested them on has a Denon avr-3805, and the SVS SBS-01 speaker system. Nothing real fancy here, but solid equiptment for this basic test.
We ran the system at reference levels (00 master volume on the Denon). We changed out the power cables on the receiver and the PB10-NSD Sub. We didn't use any measuring tools other than our own ears for this session. All we used for a test DVD for todays beginning session (as I wasn't going to continue these sessions unless we all agreed, especially me since I'm the one possibly in the market for these cables, came to a definate conclusion as to whether we/I heard a significant difference or not) was the beginning scene of Star Wars 3 "Revenge of the Sith", Chapter 3, for about the first two minutes. The bass is very intense in this opening scene, as is the whole battle scene for that matter utilizing all speakers.
We listened/watched this scene 4 times with the stock cables, then with the cables he brought with him (PS Audio Plus 8 guage 2 meter on the receiver, and a "Magic" PC ran from the sub directly to the wall outlet). I have to say everyone, I DID certainly notice a difference. And, I didn't have to listen carefully either. It was overly apparent from the first sound. First, when we played this scene at reference levels, the Sub was right on the edge of bottoming out, or so it seemed,(this was with the X-over set to 80Hz on the Denon with the volume set to -5, and the master volume on the back of the sub turned up about 30%, or about the 4:00 position) as this scene has some serious LFE. Everything else sounded great. And, that little SBS-01 system really surprised me, but thats for another thread. 
We then changed out the cables. Ok guys, I'm just telling you what we heard, so keep the gloves off.
First, the bass was noticeably more tame, and not so out of control as it was without the cable change, and was able to sustain the LFE without any sign of heavy stress like before. Also, the higher frequencies seemed to be not so in your face like before, and as the ships flew across the sound stage, it was more seemless, and less directional than before. So, I realize some may come back and disagree with me, but I really was trying to prove my point too, that being that this is nonsense. How can a PC have an audible difference and effect the sound characteristics? Well.... I don't know how this phenomenon works. But without doubt, I certainly noticed a difference grinning ear to ear in disbelief. 
Next, for our second session, we're going to test these same cables on my system, which I already know it's sound charitaristics well with as many movies as I've watched. So stay tuned...... This second session will be utilizing these same power cords on my Denon 4308ci, Denon dvd-3800bdci & SVS PB12/Plus2. Thanks for all the great input from everybody. Kevin


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

You really need a third person randomly changing the (hidden) cables and label them A,B,C while you score the changes/improvements.
You then need to compare your ratings against the other person's to see if they match and then look at which cable it was that you perceived as "best".


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## nathometheatre (Feb 17, 2009)

That is precisely what we're going to do. I agree, it's the only real and fair way to make true observations.


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

Well done, I look forward to the results. :T
I have met people who made various claims and wouldn't do the test themselves. 
they also made comments that people who didn't hear a difference had hearing that wasn't as acute as theirs. Go figure. :unbelievable:
On the other hand, if you do get a positive result then I applaude you for taking the time and effort. 
Either way, please post the results as everyone here will benefit.


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## chipperman (Jun 17, 2009)

Well, yeah, I'm a severe cynic with stuff like this. After all, copper is copper. But then, I won a Nordost Shiva and Vishnu power cable in a drawing. So, snickering all the way, I hooked them up this morning to my cd and prepro, both of whom were fed with 14 guage OEM type cords. I played three cuts three times each, from rock to female acapella, to get used to the sound of the stock cables, then switched to the Nordost. Knowing there would be no difference, I had already prepared the Audiogon ad. Whoa! Huge difference. Top middle and bottom. Way more open and super clear. First 4 notes told it all. My wife could tell the difference from the other end of the house. And, it played 2 db louder. I have no rational scientific explanation for it, it makes no sense, it costs WAY too much, but it was so obvious. I switched back and forth 3 times, and there was no comparison. I am keeping them. Would I pay for a new pair? Not at those prices, but I might be tempted. I was using an Arcam DV139, analog out, into a NAD T175, direct out, to VMPS 626's with TRT caps. The amp is a Wyred4Sound 7 channel 250wpc. It had the factory cord. I wonder if it would benefit? The best comparison I can give you is like the sound of a 44khz vs a 96khz recording. I still don't buy the interconnect, speaker cable thing, and I wrestle with a cord that costs 1/2 as much as my prepro, but since they were esentially free, I'll stick with it. The $18,000 Odin seems a little over the top, though.


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## nathometheatre (Feb 17, 2009)

Hey Guys and Gals!
I apologize for the time lapse from our last post from "Session one", as honestly I've been bogged down at work and other activities that have kept us from making progress:wits-end:. I hope to have Session 2 completed by the end of September.
So please bare with us, and I'll report back as soon as we've had some time to continue. Thanks again for your patience.:bigsmile:


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## chipperman (Jun 17, 2009)

I attended a Nordost demonstation and what is most apparent is that you need to start at the top, i.e. the source (cd, dvd) when using power cords and then work your way down through preamp, amp, and wall source. Simply changing my pc on the universal player made a huge difference. Since my last post I was lucky enough to win a Kubala Fascination power cord, and I plugged the amp into it. Even my wife could tell a difference without knowing or caring what I was doing. I am using fairly cheap interconnects, too. Perhaps we measure what we can't hear and hear what we can't measure. In theory, it shouldn't make much difference, but it does.


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