# Sob..my sub has gone to the great boom in the sky



## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Oh well, time for a new one. Contenders:

HSU VTF mk3 $509
SVS SB12-NSB $549
Empire Epik Legend single driver $499
ED A5S-300 $550
Sunfire SDS-12 $550

Tidbits to narrow the field:

Small room 12x16
One spot to put it. Front corner. Very little breathing room for it, i.e. 6-7 inch from any side is either a wall, wall/curtain, end of a couch or the TV stand.

Front main speakers are Axiom M22s

Other information available on request...

Recommendation and reasoning requested please :hissyfit:


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

wow, 50 views and not a peep, I must be truely despised..


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

I've heard the Hsu and SVS. I'd buy the Hsu.

What do you want?:sarcastic: It's the first day of the new football season.:devil:


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Without hearing either i was gonna suggest the HSU or the SVS.:T


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

HSU and SVS are trusted names, and I can personally vouch for the folks at ED...those guys know how to build bass. keep in mind the price of the ED includes shipping.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Why not wait and see what the new SB subs from SVS are like before deciding as they are looking pretty special :T


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Wasnt the little SVS being replaced with an updated model, or did that already happen?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I would say all of those are very good performers and you might be hard pressed to ever discern much of a difference, so I would probably go with the least expensive Epik. They are very well reviewed.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Epik Legend or Rythmik F12G


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Well first email back for SVS. They only sell through a company in Canada, WITH ha hefty overhead $150 Canadian.

Epik doesn't seem to ship to Canada, Unless of course you are willing to void the warranty and setup your own shipping.

Rythmik is over the budget at $799

Still waiting on HSU and ED.

No opinions on the Sunfire?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I'll hope ED will be willing to ship your way i've been to there facility in Iowa here and they do not compromise quality at all very top notch craftsmanhip. :T


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

DIY 
http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=QUARTET12(TRIO12)B
And spend the rest of the money on the box. (maybe have a cabinet maker build it for you... there`s like full instructions on that page)

Re: Sunfire - I don`t know how it performs, but I`m sure it`s a safe bet. It`s one of those reliable brands IMHO. I`d _probably _put my money on the Legend, HSU, eD, and SVS all outperforming it though.


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Just got a parts express catalog. They have a special on titanic sub with 1000w amp for $700, don't know if it includes shipping but if it did, it wouldn't be much more than your list of products...20" cube, 15" driver, and parametric eq built in.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

ironglen said:


> Just got a parts express catalog. They have a special on titanic sub with 1000w amp for $700, don't know if it includes shipping but if it did, it wouldn't be much more than your list of products...20" cube, 15" driver, and parametric eq built in.


Parts Express has free shipping on orders over $100 done over the internet.:T


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Hey Andre, you didn't say what went boom. I take it the whole thing is toasted? I ask because we could probably find a replacement driver for much less than an entire sub, that is if you have a good cabinet and amp still in existence. Likewise if the driver is good and the amp fried.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Old Yamy YST-300, not worth saving imho. Not really interested in DIY (not that handy, broken back from military). I have recieved emails from both HSU and ED. HSU is about $60 more shipped the the ED. I have yet to find a review on the A5S-300 and how it is with movies since that is what 98% of its job will be. Nothing in town I would think would come close to either for $700 Canadian. No idea about the Sunfire. Searched the internet for any other company in that price range too no avail.


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Hsu has lesser amp but balanced with larger, ported enclosure

eD has stronger amp but smaller sealed enclosure, I'm guess the amp has eq to boost the low end to achieve flat output.

Some say they prefer sealed for sound quality, others are indifferent. You'll likely end up with an excellent sub whichever way. Personally, if I went with a retail sub, I'd ask about b-stock (returns, slight blemishes) as it can save you money. If I got a deal like that I'd go with any of the subs you mentioned in your post.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Andre said:


> Old Yamy YST-300, not worth saving imho. Not really interested in DIY (not that handy, broken back from military). I have recieved emails from both HSU and ED. HSU is about $60 more shipped the the ED. I have yet to find a review on the A5S-300 and how it is with movies since that is what 98% of its job will be. Nothing in town I would think would come close to either for $700 Canadian. No idea about the Sunfire. Searched the internet for any other company in that price range too no avail.


Personnally i'd go for the ED, I think that way mostly cause i've seen first hand the quality of there product as i have no experiance with owning any store bought or name brand subs other then Paradigm.:T

That makes me think, are the price of Paradigms cheaper there being that they are built in Canada?:dontknow:


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

"are the price of paradigms cheaper in Canada" I can get the DSP3100 for approx the same price the the HSU or ED.

On another note I had a thought last night....what if my sub is fine and my problem is either the cable or the recievers LFE output. Checking the cable is simple, try another one, however, how do you check if the LFE output is outputing properly?


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

You can check the output with a volt meter, maybe +- 1V. Otherwise, you could check the line/amp by connecting the sub's speaker leads to another speaker (be sure to turn volume low). A midrange speaker may not output much, but should get some low freq, especially if you set the crossover to 100 hz or higher.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

So I can connect a small speaker to the back of the sub and get sound out of it even if the sub is only plugged into the LFE output?


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Andre said:


> So I can connect a small speaker to the back of the sub and get sound out of it even if the sub is only plugged into the LFE output?


The sub's amp will output <80hz or <100hz, whatever you're receiver's crossover is set at, provided you're using the reciever's processor. If you disconnect the speaker leads on the driver, then connect to another driver/speaker, it will 'try' to reproduce as much below 80/100hz as it can, thus the need to keep volume at a minimum. The speaker, depending on capability, will reproduce the portion below 80/100hz that it can. If it does, your connection and amp may well be fine. In which case, an inexpensive driver from parts express or the like could probably be dropped in to the cabinet. It may even improve the sound from stock, if chosen correctly. I'll have to check which model Yamaha sub you have...


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Andre, did you mean a Yamaha YST-SW300 ?


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Yes sir that is the model. Could the speaker itself be fine and the internal amp on the fritz?


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Sure it could. You could do the same with the sub's driver: connect it to the speaker r/l mains from the receiver (best if you select full-range/no sub) and see if the driver reproduces sound. It could be either one that's bad. Check them out.

That doesn't look like a cheap sub. I always thought Yamaha's subs were lower grade than their electronics, but that looks like a pretty good model. If it's the driver, it could be tricky to recommend a replacement as it uses a proprietary amp, perhaps someone else here could lend a hand if that is needed.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

I will conmence the experimentation this weekend, maybe all it needs a rubber malet and a good scolding..


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Well I have finished my testing. The sub is working BUT even at the volume set to max its sound lvl is very low. I am thinking its the built in amp that is the problem. According to my wife (my memory is very bad), I have brought it in to be fixed for this problem before, not sure I want to do that yet again. Anyways, I am down to two replacment subs. The HSU which is purchase through the internet or I can buy a Paradigm DSP-3200 here in town from Audio 5.1. Anyone have knowledge of this particular Paradigm and how it compares the the HSU?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Which HSU sub were you looking at? I have had the same midline 10" Paradigm for 16 years and it is still going strong. The DSP appears to be in the same line up as mine was from back then, Personnly i don't think you could go wrog with that one but i haven't checked out the HSU's. Post which one your interested in and i'll have a look.:T


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Good news- you get to upgrade :heehee::heehee: If they'll cost about the same, my vote is for the Hsu as it is a larger cab and likely a bit deeper for ht, if you don't mind the larger cab, but see what opinion others have that have actually used these.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I'll asume you are looking at the HSU VTF-3, if that is the one my vote goes to the Paradigm as it's bass extension is abit lower then the HSU and there quality has never let me down. On a side note though the HSU has a 7 year driver and 2 year amp warrenty where with the Paradigm it's 5 and 1 year.
I am still curious to know which HSU that your interested in.
At any rate i don't think you'll be dissapointed with either sub.:T


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Bambino I was looking at the VTF-2. However, I went out today and listened to some subs. I first listen to the Paradigm and it sounded alot like my Yamaha when it was alive. The salesman then brought in a REL and the sound was different (much better imho) less boom with as much bass if that makes any sense. I was leaning very much towards that REL, then I went to a different store and listened to everythng they had, Paradigm again, Vega (yuck), a $4k Velodyne, Then I listened to a very very small 8" Sunfire "True Subwoofer", I was blown away, I couldn't believe what was coming out of that puppy. The added benifit of the sunfire is that because of its size I would be able to put it in a few more positions then I would be able too with a larger sub. I didn't buy it yet, I wanted to research just a tad more and ask opinions.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

I don't think what I would truely want exists. When I listen to the REL I get the sense of my main speakers turning into much larger ones, the bass melds in with what your listening to giving it depth I guess is a good enough term. However, when asked to do explosions and thundering hooves a high impact lvls it doesn't. The bass increases but not to the impact "That Particular INSTANT requires". The Paradigm, Vega, Sunfire, Velodyne are the opposite. The impact is always on, but at lower lvls. When the instant happens it is produced in all its glory. However, when there is no need for that bass it is still there, but at a lower volume, which I find tiring/annoying after a while. Call it what you will "an apifany" but I didn't realize what I really wanted and was never geting untill I went out and listened to everything available in town.

Now is it possible to have REL type sound for most of a movie or a movie with very little LFE and have Sunfire explosions, earthquakes...etc Only when it really needs to be there?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Thats kind of what is nice about the Paradigm as it has the USB port on the back for there room correction software, kind of a cool feature.:T


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

I will have to ask if they have one that can be "borrowed" I wouldn't want to spend $300 on an item that I would use only a few times.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Negative. I am unable to "borrow" the PBK.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Andre said:


> Negative. I am unable to "borrow" the PBK.


Posibley one could be had for cheap on E-bay or Audiogon.:dontknow:


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

I would suggest to my dealer that this rather expensive purchase could be dependant on them installing my sub and using their PBK for just that purpose. If you word it correctly, I'm sure they will come round. Its no surprise you cant borrow it, when they want $300 for it and its only going to be used once. The software is already on the sub, you simply need the mic and PC software to back it up which makes the asking seem a lot. Thing is, is there really any point no using it if the sub has it, even the SVS EQ-1 is twice the price, although it can be used with anything.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Good call Moonfly, if they would like to make the sale then one would hope they would be willing to set it up for you. One great way to get return customers and make them happy.:T


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Its got to be at least worth a shot. Act like you have the cash on you and are ready to go, but you heard of this little think called the PBK, which you cant afford to stretch to, but really dont want the sub without it. 'Would it be possible for a home install using the PBK', at worst I reckon a 50 should persuade them to do it assuming they have the PBK.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Will room correction really make the Paradigm disappear like the REL and still have its kick to the head punch when really required? I listened to a $4k Velodyne with their version of room correction and though it was not a bad as the Paradigm or Sunfire I found it still heavy handed when it didn't need to be.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I have not dealt with or used room correction yet but from the things i've read and heard about the various types out there it would a differance.:T


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Honestly, unless anyone as heard it, we wont be able to say. That said Ive seen one very good review of it from a person I trust and the results were stated as nothing short of excellent. Really, all eq should integrate the sub seamlessly, and your sub will no doubt be better with it than without, so even if its not perfect it should still be preferable. From what Ive read though, its at least on a par with the EQ-1, with Paradigms subs at least. On that alone I would expect it to be very good.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Thank you very much for all your advice everyone. If I may one last comparision. If you had the choice:

. A Paradigm DSP-3200 which has been "corrected" using the PDK software (mics positioned in 5-7 areas in my room) or,

2. The new SVS SB12-NSD without room correction, other then the normal "sub crawl" and adjusting volume,phase..etc

3. HSU VTF-2 Mk 3 without room correction, other then the normal "sub crawl" and adjusting volume,phase..etc

If you need anymore information about my room/gear let me know

Again thank you for you help, I am one of those people that fuss over a decision like this alot..


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

My pick would be the Paradigm, with the SVS coming in second. There is nothing wrong with the crawl around the room method by any means and on top of that you always have REW at your disposal.:T


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