# Manuals -- then and now



## Richsul (Apr 17, 2016)

OK, I'll dip my toes in here and test the water. I'm new here, spent a week or so looking around and apologies if this is a well worn topic, but it is one that irks me to no end: Manuals. Sheese!

I've been doing hi-fi since the mid 60's. Well it was labeled hi-fi but but by today's standard, sheer junk. My first set-up was a Los Angeles Fedco Store system, perhaps $200.00 in 1964. I later upgraded to an integrated amp and a Yamaha pre-amp + a separate tuner. Kenwood Basic Series on the amp and tuner. The Kenwood Basic Series was a really stupid marketing move by Kenwood. It was their upper end equipment line, but somehow, some marketing "genius" wanted to label it "Basic." RogerSound Labs, a mid-range chain in LA was dumping them and I got wind of what was happening and grabbed a set. I think they threw in the Yamaha pre-amp for free. That was around 1980. The Kenwood amp ran the radio in my Studio for over 10 years and never got turned off. It finally bit the dust due to some corrosion fumes. (Don't ask!)

As I recall, the manuals on all of this equipment could have served as course documents for a academic class in sound engineering. 

I recently decided to upgrade my system. My cat liked to sit on my Onkyo TX-nr609 and upchucked into the vent holes in the top. Blewie. I was already going to upgrade the 720 42 inch Hitachi big screen. The puked Onkyo was to be replaced as well. Budget restrictions caused me to get a Sherwood R709 and a 55 inch Smart Samsung 4k. OK it's fun now.

The Sherwood manual is OK, kinda. It mentioned that the HDMI was CEC, but no clue what CEC was, and a brief mention of an ARC connection, the Sherwood was better but it was downhill from here. I download the manual for the 55JU640 series Samsung. Throughout it says that "this function may not be available in your unit or geographical area." I go online to check and it says to see the manual. After some sloshing around on the net I found info on the arc Cable. Aha! Just what I need. Manual says plug it into the ARC HDMI connector. That's good info, but which one is it on the Samsung. The screen is mounted near the wall and I can't get around to see that back and guess what? There is not even a picture of the back panel in the manual!!!! Now, my religious belief in the cult of hi-fi is that that commandment one, is a pic of the front panel and dials, and the back panel. I had to take a blury handhelp cell phone photo of the back panel and since it was so close, almost impossible to read but I surmised it was the yellow outlet. it worked.

Online there are all kinds of hints as to Blutooth. Does my unit have it? Hmmm, the online stuff hints that all new Samsung's have it. Yep they do! Maybe? All you have to know is the secret code and go into a section only allowed for Satanic Cult members, send a secret code, and hope you don't brick your TV. I haven't tried it yet. 

In my previous life I was an IBM Mainframe, systems programmer, Yeah like my first computer cost $9,000,000.00 and had a whopping 64K of memory. I think I am modestly proficient technically but this stuff is ridiculous. The rules here don't allow for profanity but I think it would be appropriate here but rules are rules.

Sorry if this is old hat here.

-Dick Sullivan


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

You remember your old systems far better than I do! I recall a few of the ones I put in cars more than the ones I had in my home. Why, I have no idea.

BTW, RogerSound Labs was reincarnated not too long ago by none other than Howard Rogers himself. It's now called RSL Speakers. A few years ago I had the opportunity to review one of their 5.1 systems. As was the case back in the early days, Howard Rogers proved to know his stuff.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Manuals are generally converted from Japanese or Chinese and many times still get lost in translation. Although much better than they used to be the problem is that everything has become much more complicated. 

30 years ago you simply turned on the stereo receiver and pushed the input you desired now you have an entire computer booting up inside them before you even get sound. 
With all the flavors of surround sound, digital vs analog inputs and of course HDMI handshake issues its no wonder you need a degree to read the manual now a days....


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Manuals have gotten ridiculous. The "online" manual for my Marantz sr7010 is 375 pages! Yes, I said 375 pages. I downloaded it to a USB and took it to Kinkos so I could have a paper copy. I was told they couldn't print it due to copyright laws. Huh, but I own it? So I came home and attempted to print it only to run out of ink after roughly page 120.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Yeah, you have to have the right printer. Back when my girls were little children in grade school, I happened on an add in an online PC magazine (the issue was about 2 years old) advertising the Dell 2130 cn Color Laser Printer. It was offered in the add at a discounted price of $225. So I looked around the net & could not find any price close to that. So I called Dell directly late one night (after hours). An Indian gentleman answered and said he would be happy to sell me one at the current price. I told him I had found the ad in the online magazine & he say's, "If you can show me the ad, I can price match it." I tell him I have it open in another tab so he remotes in, sees the add & presto, it's on the way. My girls are now in college & this thing has been stellar. The original toners are still in after all their printing of homework & papers as well as my printing! I did buy a replacement toner set last year since they are starting to getting low...$13 each for a set of 4! That printer was/is a sweet deal. Injets are just plain brutal on the wallet!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> Manuals have gotten ridiculous. The "online" manual for my Marantz sr7010 is 375 pages! Yes, I said 375 pages. I downloaded it to a USB and took it to Kinkos so I could have a paper copy. I was told they couldn't print it due to copyright laws. Huh, but I own it? So I came home and attempted to print it only to run out of ink after roughly page 120.




I am an owners manual nerd, and read them front to back, back to front but I have downloaded all of my manuals into iBooks. It's pretty convenient to have on my phone(6sPlus) and way faster than booting the laptop to install the owners manual CD. 375 pages? Yikes! That would take me a couple days to read! Lol


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> I am an owners manual nerd, and read them front to back, back to front but I have downloaded all of my manuals into iBooks. It's pretty convenient to have on my phone(6sPlus) and way faster than booting the laptop to install the owners manual CD. 375 pages? Yikes! That would take me a couple days to read! Lol


 Hmm…never thought of doing that. Is it easy to navigate to specific sections? I have the 6Plus so similar to yours.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> Hmm…never thought of doing that. Is it easy to navigate to specific sections? I have the 6Plus so similar to yours.




IME, yes. It might ya a few minutes to get the hang of it but if you know how to navigate your phone, it pretty intuitive. Ymmv, but I like it. Plus, if i need to reference something it's right in my pocket, and not in my nerd book stash. Lol!!!


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> IME, yes. It might ya a few minutes to get the hang of it but if you know how to navigate your phone, it pretty intuitive. Ymmv, but I like it. Plus, if i need to reference something it's right in my pocket, and not in my nerd book stash. Lol!!!


 Ok, thanks. I'll give it a shot.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

https://www.apple.com/support/ios/ibooks/
This is the first one I came across if you're not familiar. 


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> https://www.apple.com/support/ios/ibooks/ This is the first one I came across if you're not familiar. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Nope never used it before but it's great and EXACTLY what I need! Good looking out and thanks Willis. It even lets you enlarge each page.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Roger that! Glad I could hook you up. 
I also like the "scrubbing" feature along the bottom. (Like in photos) it's useful for skimming. 


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> Roger that! Glad I could hook you up. I also like the "scrubbing" feature along the bottom. (Like in photos) it's useful for skimming. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Just when I feel somewhat tech savvy something like this quickly grounds me. To be honest I use my phone for calls, texting, taking pics, and web browsing. I'm still old school when it comes to reading.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Sorry, wasn't trying to derail the thread even though our conversation is somewhat on topic. Has anyone seen a users manual that was 375 pages? I mean I could see it if it was 3 different languages but we're talking all English.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> Just when I feel somewhat tech savvy something like this quickly grounds me. To be honest I use my phone for calls, texting, taking pics, and web browsing. I'm still old school when it comes to reading.




I hear ya. Tech moves so fast, it's hard to keep up. Even with the simple things. Like a phone lol. I'm old school too in a lot of ways. I still get hot rod magazine, and S/V in print, and while I do visit their sites there's nothing like holding on to a book or magazine. I love that when I close the cover, I know there isn't a page or link or ad or email list or blah blah blah to keep reading.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> Sorry, wasn't trying to derail the thread even though our conversation is somewhat on topic. Has anyone seen a users manual that was 375 pages? I mean I could see it if it was 3 different languages but we're talking all English.




Lol. I think Harry Potter might be that long...


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> I hear ya. Tech moves so fast, it's hard to keep up. Even with the simple things. Like a phone lol. I'm old school too in a lot of ways. I still get hot rod magazine, and S/V in print, and while I do visit their sites there's nothing like holding on to a book or magazine. I love that when I close the cover, I know there isn't a page or link or ad or email list or blah blah blah to keep reading.


 THIS!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

My bad for the derail too! 


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## Richsul (Apr 17, 2016)

I remember him as well. I met him a few times mostly through my close friend Dick Rosmini, 12 string player and one time President of the Southern Cal AES.

I have the largest bookshelf 2way Compression Guides c. 1987, which I always liked but thought the comp guide bit was a scam. I recently looked up the patent and I don't think it's a scam.

RSL was wonderful. Sales force had no quotas and no commissions, thus no !


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## Richsul (Apr 17, 2016)

My friend, Dick Rosmini, mentioned in previous post, was also a audio engineer and designer. I was helping him figure out an Akai mixing board, a mid lever 12 track back in the late 80's. He was rewriting the English manual which looked like a Chinese menu. The Japanese manual was several hundred pages. The US, had 25. He had another friend read the manual to him translating from the Japanese. Eventually he managed to get an engineer in Japan to talk to. The engineer insisted: "American Rock and Roll, no want big manual, just do rock and Roll")

Yes, today's systems are complex and require more complex manuals. Yes there is a multiplicity of functions and many models, but a manual can be done as an object oriented manual with boiler plate for each function.A simple high school student database and voila, a manual for that model. 

"American hi-fi fellow just want to play music, not too smart." This is not to slur the Japanese, (I lived there for two years,) just slurring engineers! (I am one! an engineer that is.)

--Dick Sullivan


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## lovinthehd (Mar 17, 2012)

I do like my pdf files for manuals, altho I still stash any printed ones in the filing cabinet just in case. 

I think part of the complaint is with HDMI-CEC implementation in general. The Samsung tv I have isn't color coded (a PN59D8000) for hdmi inputs, but generally at that time Samsung used port number 2 as the designated ARC port. HDMI-CEC often works more seamlessly, even in directions, if using the same manufacturer lineup, not so much when mixing manufacturers it seems. I just turn it off, as I source no audio from the tv anyways (but I can enable HDMI CEC in the avr and tv with a remote control if I found something worthy). Optical connection gives the same lossy 5.1 audio capabilities as ARC too (no lossless capability via ARC).


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lol. I too have a large stash of manuals in a filing cabinet. Just because... ARC has no use for me whatsoever in my system but I could see it useful in sir situations 


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