# Please rate/comment my future HT setup



## sonixpc (Jan 26, 2012)

hello Everyone,

I consider myself a newbie in Home theater tech but given that I wanted to learn and built my own setup I've been reading tons of your posts so I can make a good choice. So thanks for your words.

I chose this setup based on the following:

- My room is 16x16x10ft = 2300 sq ft... It makes perfect for THX Select2 plus spec, right? 
- 80% Movies & 20% Music
- Pioneer VSX-1121 (lots of features, THX Select2, decent performance, and mainly Airplay & other network pluses, low price 500USD on Amazon)
- Fronts: Pioneer SP-FS51-LR --- Designed by Andrew jones Lots of good reviews everywhere (How about Polk Audio monitor 50?)
- Surround: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
- Center: Pioneer SP-C21 (Polk Audio CS10 is a better choice??)
- Subwoofer: Polk Audio DSW PRO 500 350USD ... Like the idea of the remote control included, maybe a better deal for this price? 

I really trust this community, so any comment, suggestion, like it, dislike it, every word is appreciated.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

My only concern is the Pioneer VSX-1121 it preformed really poorly driving all channels less than 50watts. I highly suggest going with this Onkyo 709 instead. Its got a much stronger amplification section and a lot more features for the money. It preforms better than receivers from other manufacturers costing well over $1000


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I agree totally with Tony on this. Moreover, the 709 offers Audyssey MultEQ XT which I have found to be a much better RoomEQ than Pioneer's proprietary MCACC. Between that and the much stronger Amplifier Stage, it really makes the 709 tough to best at its price. That being said, if Apple Airplay compatibility is of huge importance to you, the Pioneer does offer it. The Onkyo is iPod Certified and you just need a plug to connect your iPod. In the past, this required a $100 iPod Dock.
Cheers,
JJ


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## sonixpc (Jan 26, 2012)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I agree totally with Tony on this. Moreover, the 709 offers Audyssey MultEQ XT which I have found to be a much better RoomEQ than Pioneer's proprietary MCACC. Between that and the much stronger Amplifier Stage, it really makes the 709 tough to best at its price. That being said, if Apple Airplay compatibility is of huge importance to you, the Pioneer does offer it. The Onkyo is iPod Certified and you just need a plug to connect your iPod. In the past, this required a $100 iPod Dock.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Thanks for your answer... I must admit it's a better choice in terms of real power going with that onkyo. Is it better than denon 2112CI? it also has airplay support, altough it lacks preout.. so I should better for the sake of airplay go with an apple tv perhaps.

And what about speakers?.. are they good enough for the price asked and driven by the onkyo NR709?


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## sonixpc (Jan 26, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> My only concern is the Pioneer VSX-1121 it preformed really poorly driving all channels less than 50watts. I highly suggest going with this instead. Its got a much stronger amplification section and a lot more features for the money. It preforms better than receivers from other manufacturers costing well over $1000


Thanks, Can you redirect me to any review?.. I havent found any with ACD tested.

how much power does this onkyo handle with ACD, in real test?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

sonixpc said:


> Thanks for your answer... I must admit it's a better choice in terms of real power going with that onkyo. Is it better than denon 2112CI? it also has airplay support, altough it lacks preout.. so I should better for the sake of airplay go with an apple tv perhaps.
> 
> And what about speakers?.. are they good enough for the price asked and driven by the onkyo NR709?


Hello,
I certainly prefer it to the 2112CI. No Preouts on the Denon and far more power for the Onkyo. The Pioneer's are an amazing value and were Designed by Andrew Jones. Mr. Jones is somewhat of a "Rock Star" in Speaker Designer circles and prior to these Speakers, all his prior work was quite expensive. It is by his being with Pioneer's uber expensive TAD Speakers that he was utilized for the SP Series.
Cheers,
JJ


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

sonixpc said:


> Thanks, Can you redirect me to any review?.. I havent found any with ACD tested.
> 
> how much power does this onkyo handle with ACD, in real test?


I dont know of an actual test done on the 709 however the 609 (its little brother) was tested and was able to do better then 85 watts all channels driven, this is constant with all Onkyos across the board as they have always tested much better than the competition. The thing to look at is the size of the power supply and the weight of the receiver. The 709 weighs 30lbs where as the 2112CI only weighs 22lbs
Jack knows where the bench test was done for the 609 (The 609 even weighs more then the 2112CI)


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## sonixpc (Jan 26, 2012)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I certainly prefer it to the 2112CI. No Preouts on the Denon and far more power for the Onkyo. The Pioneer's are an amazing value and were Designed by Andrew Jones. Mr. Jones is somewhat of a "Rock Star" in Speaker Designer circles and prior to these Speakers, all his prior work was quite expensive. It is by his being with Pioneer's uber expensive TAD Speakers that he was utilized for the SP Series.
> Cheers,
> JJ


That's what i've heard about A. Jones, it's certainly a nice choice for the budget. 
I'm so grateful, I guess this weekend i'm gonna start taking my order.

Any online store (besides amazon and ebay) to look for?


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## sonixpc (Jan 26, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> I dont know of an actual test done on the 709 however the 609 (its little brother) was tested and was able to do better then 85 watts all channels driven, this is constant with all Onkyos across the board as they have always tested much better than the competition. The thing to look at is the size of the power supply and the weight of the receiver. The 709 weighs 30lbs where as the 2112CI only weighs 22lbs
> Jack knows where the bench test was done for the 609 (The 609 even weighs more then the 2112CI)


You're right. That weight gotta mean something. 
According to specs. the NR709 is 110Wpc (8 ohm) and 125wpc (6ohm). One pair of questions, given this pioneer speakers are 6ohm, Does it mean they will actually sound stronger?, Can I Use speakers with different impedance, say surrounds at 8ohms, and the rest at 6ohm with no hassles? Cause in the near future i'd like to install a 2nd zone with speakers at 8ohm.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

With the 709 you would have no issues driving 4-8ohm speakers. A lower Ohm rated speaker will play louder in most cases but puts more strain on the receivers amps. Remember the lower the Ohms the closer to a "short" or less resistance the speakers represent.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
It is strange that this 609 Review does not show up on Search Engines, but here are the results of HT Mag's Bench Test of the 609: 
"Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1% distortion at 81.0 watts 
1% distortion at 95.1 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1% distortion at 77.7 watts 
1% distortion at 88.9 watts"
http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr609-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

The 1009 was recently Reviewed by them as well. Here are its results: Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1% distortion at 116.5 watts 
1% distortion at 131.2 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1% distortion at 86.1 watts 
1% distortion at 100.6 watts"
http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr1009-92-channel-network-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

Here is the Denon 2112's. It does pretty well, but really starts to come up short when 7 Channels are tested.
"Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1% distortion at 76.6 watts 
1% distortion at 85.5 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1% distortion at 52.3 watts 
1% distortion at 63.2 watts"
http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-2112ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
And of more concern, the 2112 does not offer Preamp Outputs. This does not show up in Denon's AVR's until the 33xx Series.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I forgot this all stemmed from the 1121. Here are the results from the 1120. There is very little difference between it and the 1121. 
"Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1% distortion at 47.0 watts 
1% distortion at 52.3 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1% distortion at 38.9 watts 
1% distortion at 47.1 watts"
http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-vsx-1120-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

My concerns began with the 1020 which output less than 30 Watts when Measured into 5 Channels. Something like 28.7 if memory serves.
Cheers,
JJ


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Thanks Jack, those are really scary numbers. 30 watts is not going to drive many speakers to even close to reference no matter how efficient they are. Good for background music but thats about it.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The newer Pioneers are doing a little bit better. Including the 1021. However, they pale in comparison to the Onkyo's. Pioneer's SC Series is another story. Especially the last of the Bang & Olefsen ICEPowered SC-35/37.
Now, Pioneer is using their own proprietary Amplification in their SC Series. The 35/37 are classics to me and those lucky enough to have gotten them when Magnolia HT was literally blowing them out in some cases got a ridiculous deal. While I will always prefer Audyssey over MCACC, it is not like MCACC is not worthy.
Cheers,
JJ


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Its strange how Pioneer went from such a great product to failure in such short a time, hopefully they will realize that and come back with something strong. The SC series are like the Onkyo 805/875 just too good to last.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

> - My room is 16x16x10ft = 2300 sq ft... It makes perfect for THX Select2 plus spec, right?


THX isn't a big deal IMO. It's marketing at its finest in my opinion, at least on the sound side of things. Worthwhile on the video side of things though.



> - Center: Pioneer SP-C21 (Polk Audio CS10 is a better choice??)


Stick to the pioneer center. BTW the Pioneers are a fine choice. I let someone with a $2000 bookshelf speakers on to the $150 FS51s and he's told me that he prefers to listen to the pioneers, even though they lack the overall resolution of the high end speaker. 



> - Subwoofer: Polk Audio DSW PRO 500 350USD ... Like the idea of the remote control included, maybe a better deal for this price?


You can do much better on the subwoofer front... i'd steer clear of the Polk.



> According to specs. the NR709 is 110Wpc (8 ohm) and 125wpc (6ohm). One pair of questions, given this pioneer speakers are 6ohm, Does it mean they will actually sound stronger?, Can I Use speakers with different impedance, say surrounds at 8ohms, and the rest at 6ohm with no hassles? Cause in the near future i'd like to install a 2nd zone with speakers at 8ohm.


For starters, the difference between 110wpc and 125wpc, is meaningless. You're talking about 0.5db of headroom... that's beyond meaningless.

But even so, it doesn't mean 6 ohm speakers will sound stronger than 8 ohm speakers. I tried to address this here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ms-do-your-speaker-receiver-fit-together.html

Truthfully even a 140wpc receiver won't drive most speakers to reference but I don't think that's a big deal because few of us actually listen at "reference". My personal goal is peaks of 97db from front speakers at the listening position, though it doesn't hurt to have 2-3db of headroom above there.

Now the speakers we're talking about would be the Pioneer FS51 which are 87db sensitive. I'm assuming the plan is to sit about 9 feet away give or take. That's likely optimal in that room. The FS51s are a nominal 6 ohm load. I would treat them as essentially 4 ohm speakers. To get to 97db peaks @ 10 feet you want a receiver that can deliver about 200w into 4 ohms. For 3db of extra headroom you want an amp that can deliver about 400w into 4 ohms and of course most inexpensive speakers will have some power compression at those S.P.L.s.

For surrounds... If you can hit about 10db less at the listening position with the surrounds than you can hit with the fronts, I think you're more than good. If your receiver can deliver about 25wpc into the surrounds while delivering the necessary current into the fronts you're well and fine but that pioneer looks woefully inadequate. I recommend getting a receiver with preamplifier outputs at the very least. I've got a preference towards Marantz gear personally... the preamp outputs are just excellent on these.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

GranteedEV said:


> THX isn't a big deal IMO. It's marketing at its finest in my opinion, at least on the sound side of things.


Far from the truth, THX Cinema and Ultra 2 processing are very useful modes that are included with most THX certified Receivers. These two modes I (and may others) use exclusively with all movies and works really well. If you have never used it its not something that should be commented on.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

> If you have never used it its not something that should be commented on.


With due respect, I have zero interest in using it or any processing mode. It's certainly not something that DVDs and Blu Rays are mastered with the assumption that you'll be using it. According to THX' own website:

Further, unless your speakers have been designed with THX specs in mind, you won't get the intended results either way. THX has some specific requirements that non THX speakers won't likely fulfill. I stand by my statement that THX receivers are unecessary, but THX Projectors and TVs are worthwhile. If for yourself they're _preferred_, that's fine but it's merely a processing mode, which is different from a discrete ability like amplification or 7.1 surround channels.

If I ever end up with a THX receiver or processor, it _won't_ be because of the THX certification telling me that it's the correct choice for my room. Either way, your statement isn't "the truth" either, and mine was just an opinion as I stated. I don't need to have used it to tell you that there's plenty of excellent, non-THX certified electronics that offer excellent value, though I know that you've got a preference towards Onkyo, but at least some of us don't feel comfortable with the brand, and that doesn't mean we're about to stick only to THX gear to get excellent performance. The pioneer is THX certified and you yourself called its performance "scary" - but a person purchasing a THX receiver will expect high performance. 

This is different from a THX TV for example which has very stringent color reproduction standards before receiver certification.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

GranteedEV said:


> With due respect, I have zero interest in using it or any processing mode.............
> 
> Further, unless your speakers have been designed with THX specs in mind, you won't get the intended results either way. THX has some specific requirements that non THX speakers won't likely fulfill.


Most good quality speakers will meet or exceed THX specifications (Im not saying that everyone has good speakers but There is value in the certification if you have a resomably good size room and run 7.1)



> The pioneer is THX certified and you yourself called its performance "scary".


 Personally the tests done to "certify" using THX standards are flawed in my opinoin but again thats not what I care about its the ability to actually output what the specifications state (the poineer does not even come close) THX processing does make it sound like it was meant to sound in a theater.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The one thing I would add is that THX Select2 Plus has far less stringent criteria. THX Ultra2 Plus is actually the original THX Certification plus some updates to address new technology. That being said, I have read very few Bench Tests of Ultra2 Plus AVR's that have not done quite well. The same cannot be said for many Select2 AVR's.

As with most things, it really is a matter of preference. Especially for Onkyo users, engaging THX is the only way to get the Audyssey Flat Curve which is otherwise unavailable for Onkyo AVR's. THX dictated that the Flat Curve be used when THX is engaged. I use the THX Modes specifically for that reason. I do make triple sure that ReEQ is disengaged however.
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Most good quality speakers will meet or exceed THX specifications


For starters, the THX spec for a small speaker is for it to have a 12db/oct rolloff at 80hz. Just about every hi fi bookshelf speaker will use vents to extend response lower, so the rolloff will have a sharper knee and response will drop at 24db/oct. THX side surround speakers are also phasey dipoles, and only a few people have these kind of surrounds. The results end up different from how they are intended.

Anyways it's all about what's in the OP's best interest, not mine or yours. THX is not integral to a cinematic experience, just like Dolby Pro Logic IIz or Audyssey XT32 aren't. They're all processing modes and not the core of the performance. For every person using these processing modes there's people running their setups in pure direct, but we all have our preferences as far as features, setup modes, processing, and menu navigation.

The important thing is for a receiver to have good analog circuitry. THX Certification does not guaruntee this, at least not in the low tiers. Expensive receivers will have good performance, but that's also arguably independant of the THX certification and more in line with their general price point where good analog performance is expected.



> THX dictated that the Flat Curve be used when THX is engaged. I use the THX Modes specifically for that reason. I do make triple sure that ReEQ is disengaged however.


The audyssey flat curve with most speakers will have a tipped up frequency response. In a reverberant space it might sound very treble heavy. That curve is very specifically designed for a very heavily treated, absorptive room with an RT60 of 200ms. Most living rooms have RT60s of 400 to 600ms. Having used it on and off, I found that it makes the sound slightly tinny and sibilant with my speakers. The regular audyssey curve and source direct gave me better results on a whole. When I first got it I was inclined to use it because it's called "Flat" but the problem is that EQ affects Sound Power Response, but the setup equipment does not measure Sound Power, only response in the listening window. I'd imagine for a directive speaker like your martin logans, the effect is more tame.


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