# MartinLogan ESL Speaker Review Discussion Thread



## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

*MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL Speaker Review Discussion Thread*​[img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=19938[/img]



MartinLogan Website
EM-ESL MSRP: $2,195 Pair
Available at your Authorized
MartinLogan Dealer



*by Wayne Myers*

*Introduction*

The MartinLogan Electromotion ESL (EM-ESL) is the company's entry-level hybrid electrostatic loudspeaker. The EM-ESL and its big brother, the Montis, are the first electrostatic speakers I have reviewed or spent much time with. While I received the EM-ESL first, I had the opportunity to spend time with Sonnie Parker's new Montis speakers back in January, and completed that review first. I will reference that review from time to time, having covered a lot of detail about the technology and MartinLogan's design approaches and general product characteristics there.

Martin Logan has been making electrostatic speakers since the early 1980's. Current models make use of a curved electrostatic panel, which has a wider horizontal radiation pattern than a typical flat-panel speaker. They also stick to the hybrid design principle for all but their largest model, that approach being the best for low-distortion performance. In the hybrid design approach, a conventional cone woofer provides low-frequency coverage.

And low distortion is what I was looking forward to hearing, along with the coherence of a single driver for the entire mid- and high-frequency range. In many ways, the MartinLogan design for hybrid electrostatic speakers seems to me to be an idealized approach for high-fidelity speaker design. My experiences with the ESL and the bigger Montis have been both a delight and an education, and while they have at times been exasperatingly demanding in their placement requirements, the sonic qualities day they have delivered have been among the best I have witnessed.

Read the full *MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL Speaker Review.*


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

The review is done. Hope it is helpful.

Edit: Thanks for your patience. Hope it is worth the wait!


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Another extremely thorough job, Wayne. :clap:


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## fokakis1 (Feb 29, 2012)

AudiocRaver said:


> The review is done. Hope it is helpful.


Thanks Wayne. Your reviews are very helpful. I knew at bullet point #3 exactly what the "ultimate setup approach" would entail. Your attention to proper placement to achieve better results has been inspiring.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Wayne, I cannot imagine the trouble you went through to test and listen that extensively and I Thank You for doing so. I look forward to your further thoughts on placement and toe in etc. 

Like you, i enjoy mine very much and have achieved some good results and some not so good results based upon room and placement therein. I did find that even in a very large room with a cathedral ceiling, the speakers were able to produce sounds and listening levels that were great. Although putting them too close to the wall behind them created way too much bass. I also found that the better the equipment, the better the sound, these speakers are not embarrassed by very high quality front ends. 

I really agree with your review and found only one weakness that maybe should not be called a weakness as if one did not hear it another way, one would not know it was missing. That weakness for me was in the last bit of dynamics that bring music from the sound of a recording to the sound of live. Hard to describe really but once experienced, it cannot be forgotten. 

Lastly, i have carpets in my rooms and felt that by placing the speakers atop a flat board that is spiked to the floor, the bottom end got just a bit tighter and snappier. I would not use this trick on hard wood floors as it would do no good, but somehow and i don't understand it, the bottom firing port seems to be less chunky when it fires on to a hard surface.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Savjac: I will try the board idea. Thanks for the tip!


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## Mike0206 (Jul 14, 2013)

Very nicely done as usual! I was looking at these speakers when they first came out back in late 2012 early 2013. No real reviews on them at the time and it was really hard to determine how well they sounded in the room they were in. I went a different route and am very satisfied with my setup but after your review I wonder if I short changed the ESL's when I first heard them. Of course setup seems to be very critical with these type of speakers and so may not be for everyone. Thanks again for the great review!


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

AudiocRaver said:


> Savjac: I will try the board idea. Thanks for the tip!


Good, I left the rubber covers over spikes on the bottom of the speakers in place and then put some spikes in a flat 1" by a bit larger than the speaker base. That way for me, I could dial in the speaker toe in etc while the board remains solid to the floor. Once I got the angles in place, I marked the top of the board and took the rubber covers off the speaker spikes and let them set down, they are kind of light and I think they may not connect solidly to the floor under my carpet and pad. 

I look forward to your thoughts on what you hear or don't and I hope its not all in my mind :coocoo:

Second, if you thing those babies have a good sound space and delineation of instruments/vocals within that space, you should listen to your music via a good tube amp, zowie, those images are fleshed out better and there is a bit of meat on the bones of performers doing fine vocals.

Ps: I forgot, I owe you something, I will get them boxed up right away, I totally spaced. :sad:


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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

Just saw that this review is posted, and I just had to jump on here and say :yay: Been waiting for a long time for this one.

Okay, now I'm going to go read it and I'll come back later.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Bryan: You have been extremely patient. I thank you, and hope your needs are met by the review.


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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

Awesome review again Wayne. As usual, your very in-depth treatment is worth the wait.

I had asked Wayne a while ago to show us off-axis response since, if I were to use a pair of these speakers, I would be positioning a third one behind an acoustically transparent screen for the center channel in multichannel movie soundtracks and concerts. My concern was how narrow the dispersion was and whether it would be able to accommodate four or five people seated in one row (about 25 degrees off-axis on either side) without significant high frequency roll-off.

Looks like I'd be pretty okay to at least 15 degrees, but there is significant attenuation when 30 degrees off-axis. I do like a crisp sound and wouldn't want to lose that. On the other hand, Wayne also said he liked 30 degrees for soundstaging and that was about the limit for this on movies. 

I suppose, though, to maintain a consistent tone across the front sound stage, if you are at zero degrees to the center speaker, you wouldn't want to be more than 15 degrees off-axis to the left and right speakers. I'm speaking in the interest of the primary listening position for this. On the other hand, it looks like the tonality can be significant affected by tilting the speaker up and down, so being 30 degrees off-axis to the left and right channels can be somewhat compensated for by changing the vertical angle too. Nice flexibility IMO.

I'm not against EQ to lift the highs a bit, but it just requires planning and might affect my choice of AVR/pre-pro and EQ scheme. I've contemplated everything from an Anthem AVR (ARC) to manual EQ in the Emotiva UMC200, or building an HTPC and running everything through that, using JRiver's manual EQ or even Dirac Live. So many choices.

Wayne, it's fun to read as you wax poetic about sound stage. I don't even know for sure myself whether I would place such high priority on it as you do, or if I will be more focused on tonality or whatever else. But I can say for sure that I will not be buying a new set of speakers until I get my hands on these and try to duplicate what you've been able to create. And then I will know better what my priorities are. Before the Montis review I had not really considered an ESL, due to some preconceived notions including output capability and difficulty in set up. But now this speaker is definitely on my short list.

Thanks again, Wayne, for a thorough review! :T

Edit: I should mention that this acoustically transparent screen would be 2.5 - 3 feet away from the front wall, so I will have some space between the wall and the speakers. And I am willing to move the left and right speakers to the most optimal positions when engaging in stereo listening.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Just made a couple of final tweaks to the Review.

Minor changes were made in these sections:

Vertical Sweet Spot Study
Soundstage Journey
Ultimate Soundstage Tuning


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

fokakis1 said:


> I knew at bullet point #3 exactly what the "ultimate setup approach" would entail.


You got there faster than I did. It came to me about a week later during an airplane landing.:huh:


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

bkeeler10 said:


> Looks like I'd be pretty okay to at least 15 degrees, but there is significant attenuation when 30 degrees off-axis. I do like a crisp sound and wouldn't want to lose that. On the other hand, Wayne also said he liked 30 degrees for soundstaging and that was about the limit for this on movies.


I would call 15 degrees the limit for music, you can hear the change beyond that fairly rapidly. For movies, 30 degrees sounded fine to me.



> I suppose, though, to maintain a consistent tone across the front sound stage, if you are at zero degrees to the center speaker, you wouldn't want to be more than 15 degrees off-axis to the left and right speakers. I'm speaking in the interest of the primary listening position for this.


For music, I agree. You are being super kind to your fellow listeners, probably not nearly as discriminating as you are.



> On the other hand, it looks like the tonality can be significant affected by tilting the speaker up and down, so being 30 degrees off-axis to the left and right channels can be somewhat compensated for by changing the vertical angle too. Nice flexibility IMO.


Pitch and roll strongly affect imaging, be careful there.



> Edit: I should mention that this acoustically transparent screen would be 2.5 - 3 feet away from the front wall, so I will have some space between the wall and the speakers. And I am willing to move the left and right speakers to the most optimal positions when engaging in stereo listening.


Moving them around will depend on how critical the placement of your chosen setup priority. For multiple listeners, soundstage will probably not be top priority, so it _might_ be practical.


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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

^^

Wayne, will you please clarify your comment about pitch and roll, as mentioned in the "Ultimate Soundstage Tuning" section? I am interpreting it as is shown here. and assuming that the nose of the plane is pointing directly at the listening position equates to a line perpendicular to the panel running through the listening position. So changing the yaw of the speaker is changing toe-in angle, for example.

I interpret from your comments that you played around with roll (ie with the panel's long axis not perpendicular to the floor), which surprises me so I thought perhaps I am not interpreting this the same way you are.

My idea of changing the pitch of the speaker was that if I was sitting in the PLP and was 30 degrees off-axis to the left and right speakers, and the center speaker (at 0 degrees) sounded bright in comparison, I could tilt (or change the pitch of) the center channel to "turn its highs down" a bit and make them closer to timbre matched at the PLP. Although, now that I'm thinking about it, I probably would just keep the left and right channels at 15 degrees for cinema, making this a moot point.

Also, for stereo listening I'm nearly always alone. Stereo listening is a bit of a solitary adventure, almost by necessity. The position of the left and right speakers in a cinema setting carries constraints that will likely make it less than ideal for soundstage and imaging (at least in my smallish room). In my setup, for example, I would probably have only 2.5 feet between the speakers and the front wall, and the speakers would be either behind the AT screen or immediately to the sides of the screen. So for stereo listening, I would try to find the best position, and then move the speakers back and forth depending on what I am doing.

See, you're not as crazy as you think . . . well, maybe you are but you're not alone.  This hobby seems to foster obsession and related disorders!

I only care about others' experience when there's a movie playing, and hope to be able to achieve an experience that is similar for everyone that is located inside the left and right boundaries of the screen. In my case, that would mean no one is more than 25 degrees off-axis from the center channel. Maybe only 20 degrees most of the time, and we will not worry too much about that guy at 20 degrees :whistling:


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

bkeeler10 said:


> Wayne, will you please clarify your comment about pitch and roll, as mentioned in the "Ultimate Soundstage Tuning" section? I am interpreting it as is shown here. and assuming that the nose of the plane is pointing directly at the listening position equates to a line perpendicular to the panel running through the listening position. So changing the yaw of the speaker is changing toe-in angle, for example.


Yes, that is correct. I should have been more specific. The linked illustration and your description show exactly what I meant.



> I interpret from your comments that you played around with roll (ie with the panel's long axis not perpendicular to the floor), which surprises me so I thought perhaps I am not interpreting this the same way you are.


I did not "play around" with the "roll." Rather, my carpeted basement floor has some slightly uneven areas, which include around the spots where both ESL speakers sit. At one point in the experiments, the imaging became very soft, and I eventually realized that the ESL position relative to that floor unevenness had the "roll" slightly off-vertical. I used a level across the top of the panel (be sure it is exactly straight across) to adjust the "roll" back to perfectly vertical, and the image clarity improved dramatically. I was surprised at how sensitive the image clarity was to this slight error.

So it is not a variable to play with, but rather a potential pitfall which must be watched closely. Precisely zero "roll" is the only acceptable orientation.



> My idea of changing the pitch of the speaker was that if I was sitting in the PLP and was 30 degrees off-axis to the left and right speakers, and the center speaker (at 0 degrees) sounded bright in comparison, I could tilt (or change the pitch of) the center channel to "turn its highs down" a bit and make them closer to timbre matched at the PLP. Although, now that I'm thinking about it, I probably would just keep the left and right channels at 15 degrees for cinema, making this a moot point.


The "pitch" also has to be just right, although the actual value can be different for the two speakers (couldn't just ONE little thing be simple?????). With a mirror taped to the wall and a laser distance finder reflecting from LP to mirror to ESL and back to mirror and LP again, one can determine (with some experimenting with the mirror location on the wall) right where the main reflection points are for the rear waves. Upon trying this, it became clear that my wall was not perfectly flat, and that the reflection points differed in height on the wall by several inches. The best image clarity was achieved by adjusting relative pitch so that the rear waves were coming from the same heights of the two speakers. When you look at the distances and angles, you can see that adjusting "pitch" affects the point of origin for the rear wave more than it does the front (there, ONE factor that makes setup a LITTLE bit simpler), so the "pitch" will be adjusted initially for the proper rear-wave path from panel to LP, then fine-tuned by ear for image clarity later on. This adjustment also was quite sensitive. I resorted for convenience to propping the back of one ESL with paperback books just so I could vary the "pitch" quickly, and found that the difference of thickness of a _few pages_ there could affect the image clarity noticeably, from "pretty good but sounds a little bit strained" to "totally natural and relaxed."

It will depend on what qualities you prioritize. Your statement above is essentially correct, but if imaging is a priority you will have little leeway in playing with "pitch." For frequency response matching, you might be able to vary it more, but that is essentially what was being done to adjust imaging, so I am not sure now much you can vary it in practicality.



> Also, for stereo listening I'm nearly always alone. Stereo listening is a bit of a solitary adventure, almost by necessity. The position of the left and right speakers in a cinema setting carries constraints that will likely make it less than ideal for soundstage and imaging (at least in my smallish room). In my setup, for example, I would probably have only 2.5 feet between the speakers and the front wall, and the speakers would be either behind the AT screen or immediately to the sides of the screen. So for stereo listening, I would try to find the best position, and then move the speakers back and forth depending on what I am doing.


Sonnie has done this successfully. Taped targets on the floor plus precise laser distance meter measurements and laser-guided angle adjustments can give pretty satisfying results. The ultimate soundstage results require that measurements get mighty close, though. I adjusted for impulse delay matching front and rear, as shown, which gets down to 1/10th inch distances and fraction of-degree-angles. As mentioned, however, it did turn out that using the "thickening" slats on the wall allowed that precision requirement to be relaxed a bit, so movement back & forth with a few minutes allowed for positional fine tuning might work.

The soundstage without the slats and with precision delay matching is remarkable, but adding those thickening slats makes the depth acuity and density cine alive.



> See, you're not as crazy as you think . . . well, maybe you are but you're not alone.  This hobby seems to foster obsession and related disorders!


Yeah, if one has the slightest OCD tendency, this hobby will really get under his skin (scratch, scratch).



> I only care about others' experience when there's a movie playing, and hope to be able to achieve an experience that is similar for everyone that is located inside the left and right boundaries of the screen. In my case, that would mean no one is more than 25 degrees off-axis from the center channel. Maybe only 20 degrees most of the time, and we will not worry too much about that guy at 20 degrees :whistling:


I think you will be very satisfied with those criteria.


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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

AudiocRaver said:


> The "pitch" also has to be just right, although the actual value can be different for the two speakers (couldn't just ONE little thing be simple?????). With a mirror taped to the wall and a laser distance finder reflecting from LP to mirror to ESL and back to mirror and LP again, one can determine (with some experimenting with the mirror location on the wall) right where the main reflection points are for the rear waves. Upon trying this, it became clear that my wall was not perfectly flat, and that the reflection points differed in height on the wall by several inches. The best image clarity was achieved by adjusting relative pitch so that the rear waves were coming from the same heights of the two speakers. When you look at the distances and angles, you can see that adjusting "pitch" affects the point of origin for the rear wave more than it does the front (there, ONE factor that makes setup a LITTLE bit simpler), so the "pitch" will be adjusted initially for the proper rear-wave path from panel to LP, then fine-tuned by ear for image clarity later on. This adjustment also was quite sensitive. I resorted for convenience to propping the back of one ESL with paperback books just so I could vary the "pitch" quickly, and found that the difference of thickness of a _few pages_ there could affect the image clarity noticeably, from "pretty good but sounds a little bit strained" to "totally natural and relaxed."
> 
> It will depend on what qualities you prioritize. Your statement above is essentially correct, but if imaging is a priority you will have little leeway in playing with "pitch." For frequency response matching, you might be able to vary it more, but that is essentially what was being done to adjust imaging, so I am not sure now much you can vary it in practicality.


Remember that part where I said you are not really crazy? I might have to take that back. :yikes: :bigsmile:

Thanks for all the clarification.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Believe it or not Wayne, that is another reason I put heavy boards under the Logans and put long sharp drywall screws through the boards, that way I can spike the board to the floor, and adjust the pitch of the speaker by changing the drywall screws in the board. I start with the boards flat and add the speakers with their feet tight in. Then I can adjust the speaker and the board beneath much easier. It does raise the speaker a short but so your 31" may change but I think you will like the sound more.


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## |Tch0rT| (May 2, 2013)

Nice review. I enjoy mine a lot. I should play with my room and placement a little more but I'm kinda locked in a little due to my room size and having it be a living room as well.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

bkeeler10 said:


> Remember that part where I said you are not really crazy? I might have to take that back. :yikes: :bigsmile:
> 
> Thanks for all the clarification.


OK, that was a mouth full. The short answer is: adjust the speakers' pitch for best image clarity. The slightly uneven wall issue really had me thrown though until I got mirrors and lasers involved. Details!


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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

AudiocRaver said:


> OK, that was a mouth full. The short answer is: adjust the speakers' pitch for best image clarity. The slightly uneven wall issue really had me thrown though until I got mirrors and lasers involved. Details!


Your attention to detail and willingness to investigate is remarkable and inspirational. I think any manufacturer of a good speaker would be lucky to have you review it, because you're going to wring every ounce of performance out of it. You're not going to give up and just call it a mediocre speaker because you don't get good results after half an hour of fiddling.

In my reading of threads about projectors, I have come across many instances of people trying to get their projectors to square up to their on-wall screens, and the culprit is often that the wall is not level or square itself. So this is apparently not uncommon in construction, and for a dipole speaker this will have a significant effect on performance. It's good to know how sensitive these things can be to such issues and to be able to identify what the problem might be.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Savjac said:


> Believe it or not Wayne, that is another reason I put heavy boards under the Logans and put long sharp drywall screws through the boards, that way I can spike the board to the floor, and adjust the pitch of the speaker by changing the drywall screws in the board. I start with the boards flat and add the speakers with their feet tight in. Then I can adjust the speaker and the board beneath much easier. It does raise the speaker a short but so your 31" may change but I think you will like the sound more.


Yes, it makes even more sense when you explain it that way. I am dealing with carpeting over concrete, so have to work with sharp spikes that go completely through the carpeting to rest on the concrete for stability. The drywall screws might still work for that, and allow adjustment, but would not be as stable as your method of course. Another possibility is a heavy tile of some sort just resting on the carpet, or small stone slab. Still thinking.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Bkeeler10, Savjac: Attention to detail, it seems, is that rabbit hole we never intend to go down until some matter of necessity - " why does this not sound right?" or " why can I not repeat the results I had before?" - forces us to dig deeper. We end up with sleepless nights, headaches, interesting tales to tell, and hopefully better sounding systems as a result. Hopefully.

The hard part for me is boiling it all back down to a fairly simple process. Not quite there yet, but working on it.


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## fokakis1 (Feb 29, 2012)

AudiocRaver said:


> OK, that was a mouth full. The short answer is: adjust the speakers' pitch for best image clarity. The slightly uneven wall issue really had me thrown though until I got mirrors and lasers involved. Details!


Wayne,

Without breaking the bank, which laser would you recommend? One that measures?


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

fokakis1 said:


> Wayne,
> 
> Without breaking the bank, which laser would you recommend? One that measures?


I like the Bosch DLR130 (order DLR130K for Kit), $89 at Amazon. The laser is aligned within the case so you can put the rear end or side or back up against a surface and get a perpendicular / parallel beam for alignment. Uses AAA batteries, not a power hog at all. Mine is about 5 years old and going strong, almost zero sign of wear, even the push buttons barely look worn. Could not live without it.


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## fokakis1 (Feb 29, 2012)

AudiocRaver said:


> I like the Bosch DLR130 (order DLR130K for Kit), $89 at Amazon. The laser is aligned within the case so you can put the rear end or side or back up against a surface and get a perpendicular / parallel beam for alignment. Uses AAA batteries, not a power hog at all. Mine is about 5 years old and going strong, almost zero sign of wear, even the push buttons barely look worn. Could not live without it.


My buddy at work said he has this exact model. He's gonna let me borrow it to see if I like it. Thanks for the feedback.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

AudiocRaver said:


> Bkeeler10, Savjac: Attention to detail, it seems, is that rabbit hole we never intend to go down until some matter of necessity - " why does this not sound right?" or " why can I not repeat the results I had before?" - forces us to dig deeper. We end up with sleepless nights, headaches, interesting tales to tell, and hopefully better sounding systems as a result. Hopefully.
> 
> The hard part for me is boiling it all back down to a fairly simple process. Not quite there yet, but working on it.


Absolutely, no question about it that once bitten this hobby becomes a quest or a rabbit hole to use your terms as they seem much more accurate. I used to think of it as an adventure until the first time I threw something in frustration many years ago.

But what also occurs, is repeatable knowledge that once learned cannot be unlearned. Setting up equipment now has a starting point and one can refine from there. Sleepless nights and headaches are surely a problem that occurs with some regularity and I am going through that now after inserting an all tube amp into the system. Things change some for the better and some for the not so much better and ohhh yes, I have some stories. Sometimes the fixes are so easy yet pass us by because of how easy they are.
I was doing some set up tests the other day using my regular gear connected to my JRiver/computer and being told what to do via ipod touch. All of a sudden everything went quiet, dead quiet in the middle of a song. I was shocked and scared, brand new amp just blew up...ahhhhh. After going through the check list of things, I was flummoxed, turned the amp off, rebooted the computer, etc etc and still nothing. So I grabbed the ipod and went to connect it to the charger and noticed that somehow the volume slider went to zero. I do not know how, it just did it, simple as that, the volume got turned down. Son of a gun, now I know when something happens, look first to the easy stuff and then the expensive stuff.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Amazing review! The time and effort put forth is very evident. Well done.

_After awhile, it became clear that any limitations were going to be at volume levels far above any I wanted to cauterize my ear nerves with._

Quite possibly one of the best lines I've ever read in a review. Wish I had said that... :T


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Savjac said:


> I was doing some set up tests the other day using my regular gear connected to my JRiver/computer and being told what to do via ipod touch. All of a sudden everything went quiet, dead quiet in the middle of a song. I was shocked and scared, brand new amp just blew up...ahhhhh. After going through the check list of things, I was flummoxed, turned the amp off, rebooted the computer, etc etc and still nothing. So I grabbed the ipod and went to connect it to the charger and noticed that somehow the volume slider went to zero. I do not know how, it just did it, simple as that, the volume got turned down. Son of a gun, now I know when something happens, look first to the easy stuff and then the expensive stuff.


Had to laugh, because I have done exactly the same thing with my foobar2000 server and Android-pad remote. Had me thrown for awhile, too.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

While editing a couple of last typos, I added the following sentence in the _Conclusions_ section:

"The single 8-inch mid-woofer driver could possibly hold back the truly bass-hungry listener and a big room with high-volume requirements might lead one to consider a large-panel MartinLogan hybrid model, but neither of these areas was ever a problem for me."


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

AudiocRaver said:


> While editing a couple of last typos, I added the following sentence in the _Conclusions_ section:
> 
> "The single 8-inch mid-woofer driver could possibly hold back the truly bass-hungry listener and a big room with high-volume requirements might lead one to consider a large-panel MartinLogan hybrid model, but neither of these areas was ever a problem for me."


Excellent call on this, I found in my room, that the bottom end while good was not all that it could be. When I brought them into my big room and put them a bit closer to the wall than I normally would, the bass was overwhelming. So absolutely, this will be very room and placement dependent, but I would recommend folks read your review again to drink in the information about placement and what the trade offs are.

For me, the brilliance of the mid range on through the stratosphere was considerably better than what was available from the smallish woofer. They are a wonderful speaker, can go very loud, if I remember correctly Martin Logan told me that they recommend several days of break in at 90+db and they do it. I do wish they had a bit more punch in the lower registers although in truth, this will be very room dependent.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Savjac:

Wow, just implemented the solid base idea for the ESLs, and what a difference it makes! My ESLs are on carpet glued to a concrete basement floor, not easy to screw into with screws as you mentioned, so I bought a pair of 12x16 ceramic tiles to put them on. The floor has s little slant, too, so for a temporary trial I stacked tightly spaced stacks of index cards, using a level, so each tile has a dense, solid, even base. Add the speakers, align, EQ, and...

The improvement is so exciting, I've been listening for the last 3 and 1/2 hours. Wow, the bass is crisper, tighter, more solid, feels more present, authoritative. The effect on measurements will be interesting, when I get to them. Clearly, some of what is mentioned here implies frequencies higher than those normally associated with a bass port, so I am very interested in seeing exactly what is different.

Thanks again for the great tip. I will report back when I have more data.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Excellent AudiocRaver, I am glad I could help. Actually what makes me most happy is that you tried this suggestion. Many folks would consider me a nut ball but there are some very inexpensive tweeks that can truly add to the enjoyment of your system. Thank You for giving it a try and enjoy.

When it comes to the drywall screws I found that sometimes to get them to set in place, I used a small rubber mallet and tapped the screw head until I heard it make contact with the floor, once done the threads remain in the wood and can be easily changed.

If you like the ceramic tile, there is an easy upgrade to that as well, they make pointed cones with a flat sticky side on a threaded rod so they are also adjustable. I have used them and yes they do work, I even have a set that I am not using now should you wish to try them.

Good Listening.


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## |Tch0rT| (May 2, 2013)

Can we get some pics of the solid slab tweak? My ML EM ESL's are just on regular plywood (I dunno, not a construction guy lol) and carpet with the stock spikes with the rubber numbs removed (I think I still have them...). So would I just buy the slabs, stick them under the speakers and then put the rubber nubs back on over the spikes? I think I've seen people do that and then spike the slab to the carpet too.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I have not tried the marble slab but when using wood, cut a single or double thick piece of 3/4" mdf and drill 4 holes near the corners that are a bit smaller than the wood screws you will use as spikes. The wood screws should be long enough to penetrate the wooden slab, the carpet and with a bit left over for adjustments so ensure the wood is level on all four sides. A spirit level would be good to use before the speakers are placed atop the wood, and make sure that the wood base is nice and level and the screws are tight to the floor. Once done with that, screw the spikes on the bottom of the speakers all the way in and carefully place them on the wood. I made the wood bases large enough so you can change the angle of the speakers in the horizontal plane a bit as needed. 

Its that simple.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

The marble slab was mostly a fast way to get something solid under the speakers to hear the improvement it would give. In retrospect, I should have taken the time to get wood cut to the proper size and gone that route. The marble slab demonstrates the bass improvement, but I have not found a good way to tie them down so they don't move around if they get bumped.

With the wood piece, it sounds like screwing into the carpeting with the tip of the screw against the concrete slab would give pretty good stability. I will be implementing that in the near future.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Here is a rough photo of how they sit on boards. These boards have not been painted and the speaker will look crooked in the photo due to some angles of it but there are four long course thread drywall screws in each of the corners of the board. I drilled pilot holes first and then ran the drywall screws almost all the way through. I then put a spirit level on the board to get it flat in all directions and then the speaker was placed atop that. I kept the spiked feet on mine so theoretically there is double isolation but i am not sure that helps or not.


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## |Tch0rT| (May 2, 2013)

Thanks for the pic and the previous reply. I figured it would be something that simple but I like to visually see things. :nerd: So your drywall screws are the spikes for the board into the carpet? I use a sub crossed over at 80hz would this mod make much difference for me? Most of the bass seems to be from the subs anyway. I've been meaning to play with the rake a bit by buying some hockey pucks and put the them under the rear spikes. I've seen this before over at MLO I think.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Conceivably it should work as the woofer in this speaker goes up quite a bit above 80hz. It is kind of a cheap project, maybe $5 or so and worth experimenting with.


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## Primare Knob (Dec 4, 2014)

Great review and it is nice to see someone who is willing to go through such lengths and also write about it.

I do have a few points of discussion or comments about your article.

I could not find any measurements about dimensions for speaker placement. 
I am not familiar with the term Sharp Reflections, what do you mean by this? Are these early reflections?
Example 3 suggest taht placing the speakers close to the side walls could work. Have you tried this?
Example 4 doesn't make much sense since there are no (Sharp) reflections point in the direct path between speaker and LP. You mentioned a follow up post about using the slats. Have you been able to post that?
With example 3 you mentioned later on in the article that this setup produces big variations with small differences in placement. Could you not compensate that by changing the angle of the reflection panel?
You speak about pitch and roll in the article but roll would suggest turning the speaker around the front to back axis.

From all article that I have read about Martin Logan speaker I have found this one the most informative and the sound stage that I am chasing after myself, but my room is pretty narrow only 133in in width while ML recommend placing the speakers 96in-108in apart and at least 24inch from the side walls.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Great questions, you are stretching the limits of my memory banks.

I will follow with a post tomorrow (Wednesday) with answers. The promised follow-up is in process at this time, a complete rewrite of my Speaker Setup Guide. My goal is to publish it in April. It will contain a lot of detail, including theory.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Primare Knob said:


> I could not find any measurements about dimensions for speaker placement.


Terrific questions all. I will try to fill in some blanks, but some of your answers might have to wait for my rewritten setup guide, in the works. Hopefully done in the next few months.

Final Placement:
43 in = LP to speaker plane (plane that runs from center to center of the speakers)
67 in = spkr to spkr
64 in = spkr plane to front wall



> I am not familiar with the term Sharp Reflections, what do you mean by this? Are these early reflections?


Yes, controlled early reflections "tuned" to be constructive to soundstage development.



> Example 3 suggest taht placing the speakers close to the side walls could work. Have you tried this?


I have not. Room symmetry does not allow this in my listening area. Also, the angle of the side reflection is critical and side walls might not support that precise angle.



> Example 4 doesn't make much sense since there are no (Sharp) reflections point in the direct path between speaker and LP. You mentioned a follow up post about using the slats. Have you been able to post that?


The vertical panel on the right of the diagram is the source of the sharp reflection.

I am working on a complete rewrite of my setup guide. Other than that, no, sorry.



> With example 3 you mentioned later on in the article that this setup produces big variations with small differences in placement. Could you not compensate that by changing the angle of the reflection panel?


Yes, in fact that is precisely what I do now. The next version of the setup guide will show this. Again, sorry.



> You speak about pitch and roll in the article but roll would suggest turning the speaker around the front to back axis.


Correct. I have to pay attention to that in my listening laboratory because of a slightly uneven concrete basement floor (100% covered by carpet in the listening area). Speaker heights do not match, nor do other speaker setup parameters, without measurements and careful compensation. I nave custom DIY stands which are used to compensate for all of these variables.



> From all article that I have read about Martin Logan speaker I have found this one the most informative and the sound stage that I am chasing after myself, but my room is pretty narrow only 133in in width while ML recommend placing the speakers 96in-108in apart and at least 24inch from the side walls.


My only suggestion is to refer to the ratios in the current setup guide, which has served us pretty well so far.


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## Primare Knob (Dec 4, 2014)

AudiocRaver said:


> My only suggestion is to refer to the ratios in the current setup guide, which has served us pretty well so far.


Printing it now as we speak.

Hopefully I will be able to use your new guide to design my HT. I still have a few months before the build can actually start.

Thanks for all your hard work.


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