# New BFD... will you buy one?



## Sonnie

If Behringer were to produce a new BFD unit with the features below would you buy one?

We need everyone's participation, please vote!

*Features Unit A (Retail $200-$250 / Street Price $150-$200):*
~ Two independent channels.
~ A minimum of twelve parametric filters per channel (20 per channel is good too).
~ Channel coupling and series looping.
~ Three-way IN/OUT bypass.
~ Input/output LED level indicators.
~ LED filter indicators for both channels.
~ Front panel display.
~ Retain normal required buttons and jog dial.
~ 24-bit/96 kHz A/D and D/A converter powered by a 32-bit DSP.
~ Internal switch-mode power supply (100 - 240 V~ / 50-60hz).
~ Low power consumption.
~ Adjustable input level (-10dBV / +4dBu) on rear.
~ Hard bypass relay.
~ Noise-free.
~ 107db dynamic range.
~ 0.007% THD.
~ High-quality components.
~ High-quality construction.
~ Balanced XLR inputs/outputs.
~ Soft power ON/OFF with selectable Auto-On detect via sub signal.
~ Eliminate turn-on thump and ground hum.
~ Double insulated chassis with a two prong plug or a ground lift switch if needed to eliminate hum.
~ Pure flat frequency response from 10hz to 20khz* (FBQ2496 is -3db @ 20hz).
~ Filter adjustment capabilities from 10hz to 20khz*.
~ Adjustable gain range from -24db to +16db for each filter.
~ Minimum of 4 to 6 memory presets.
~ Replace ¼ inch inputs/outputs with RCA inputs/outputs.
~ Simple shelf filter… (i.e. selectable linear boost between two selectable frequencies).
~ Selectable and/or variable 6db-48db/octave subsonic roll-off filter from 35hz to 10hz (minimum 5hz increments).
~ Time delay from 0 to 30msec or 1 foot increments w/ 0.1 foot fine up to 30 feet.
~ Variable phase correction/adjustment from 0-180.
~ Front panel USB and/or RS-232 interface for MIDI port (place under small flip cover like on computers).
~ Dimmable front panel LED's / lights with OFF option.
~ Soft blue and/or green LED's on front panel vs. red.
~ Offer unit in black or silver… if not optional, offer only in black.
~ Revamp chassis for home theater consumer appearance vs. pro-audio style.
~ Allow mounting brackets to be optional (include unattached).
~ Enclose/fill gaps on sides if mounting brackets are removed.
~ Add rubber feet to allow placement on top of other equipment.
~ Remove graphic design from top of unit.
~ One year warranty.

*Optional features in Unit A** (If can be added at no additional cost):*
~ Anti-clipping mechanism with higher dynamic peak input before clipping.
~ Frequency readout in hertz instead of base + fine… (1hz increments w/ 0.1hz fine increments).
~ Bandwidth readout in octaves (1/3,1/6,1/24,1/1, etc.) or hertz (2hz,5hz,12hz,etc.) instead of 1/60, 10/60, 60/60, etc.
~ Front panel volume/gain to control output level to sub.
~ Ability to slave multiple units together.
~ Linkwitz transform circuit.
~ Detachable power cord.

*Added features of Unit B (Retail $250-$300 / Street Price $200-250):*
~ Individual crossover filters (Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley) per channel w/ selectable roll-off 6db-48db/octave.
~ Adjustable/variable crossover range (low pass and high pass from 20hz to 200hz and w/ bypass).
~ Built-in RTA mic/line input w/ phantom power and w/ GAIN control.
~ Built-in SPL meter with selectable dBA/dBC/OFF weighting.
~ Built-in test tones (sinewaves - individual 1hz increments and sweep from 5hz to 400hz or 5hz to 20khz).
~ Separate RCA mic monitoring and test tone output to allow for computer program monitoring.
~ Locate RTA mic/line inputs and RCA monitoring outputs on the front face plate under a small flip cover.
~ Video output for monitoring the display would be nice, but the cost factor may prohibit this.
~ Video display instead of LED's… (dimmable and selectable OFF).
~ Small and simple 6 button wireless IR remote with discrete ON/OFF buttons and Preset 1,2,3,4 buttons.
~ Rear IR jack for remote control… to use with repeaters.
~ Add volume/gain control button to remote if feature is made available.
~ Add other control buttons to remote if cost feasible.


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## Hakka

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

Yes.


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## Danny

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*



Sonnie said:


> ~ Replace ¼ inch inputs/outputs with RCA inputs/outputs.


Probably would want to leave it with the 1/4inch phono jack inputs, it's not too hard to convert to rca inputs and it would suit live sound applications a bit better to have native 6.5mm jacks on there.


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## Bent

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

Yup - I'd buy another one if it had these specs.


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## JimPeitersen

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

I would buy either unit, but would prefer "B" because of the added features. I already have a BFD, but a new model would be nice.
JP


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## Otto

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

I'd prefer B, if only for the remote control.


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## titch--

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

I voted for B to.


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## Sonnie

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

Yeah that remote would be nice indeed... maybe somehow we can get that on Unit A as well.


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## Guest

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

Ahem, where's the option for NADA? Velodyne SMS-1 and forgetaboutit!

RG


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## Sonnie

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

We really don't care how many don't want it... we only ask what we want to know... :R


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## Owen Bartley

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

I voted for A because B is getting a bit complex and expensive, although there are features on it that would be nice.

The biggest things for me would be the shelf filter ability, the 2 pronged outlet/hum control, rumble filter, and the variable phase would be an awesome addition.


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## azjimmy

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

I'd like to see either, but B looks like the one I'd go for, despite having a mixer, mic, SPL meter etc. I like the remote and the ability to have all the stuff I mentioned above in one unit. 
Sonnie, does this mean we are coming up on a finalized product?
Jim


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## Sonnie

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*



azjimmy said:


> Sonnie, does this mean we are coming up on a finalized product?


No, I'm still trying to get Behringer to listen to us. I will simply continue to gather ammunition and they will have to sue me to get me to stop asking them to produce it. I'll go as far as I can for us all... :T You guys may have to bail me out of jail... :blink:


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## O_ROD

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

I just purchased my first 1124, I don't really see any upgrades in the newer ones that'd warrant it's purchase. But, B for the remote and flexibility!


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## LightwaveDude

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

I prefer unit B, but I'd probably have to go with Unit A due to price concerns (teenage highschool budget).


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## Guest

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

Probably B, BUT I question that an SPL meter would be accurate enough and have the resolution I'd want for the addtional $50 or so.:dunno:


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## toecheese

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

Where's the voting option of 'I'll stick with my current BFD'?


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## Sonnie

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

We are only interested in those who are looking for a new one. You can keep yours... :R


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## JorgenMan

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

I'm not sure any of the extra features in B would be worth it. I might say differently if I had them, but I think the features in A are good enough for what the BFD is used for, and for the extra cost, I'd prefer to have the phantom power, SPL meter, etc. in separate components.


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## JCD

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

For me, the optional (i.e., more than just LR) croosover types in B make it my choice.

JCD


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## Guest

*Re: Poll: New BFD... will you buy one?*

Hi: On my BFD Pro I am using both engines , one for two-channel and the other for movies only, on two different set-ups, that is two different sets of speakers and two different sources( c.d. and dvd player).
I am getting a lot of cross-talk between engine L and engine R. I hope the newer model can address this! Thanks, Huck


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## muse77

I would buy B. I have an old BSR EQ-3000 that even a monkey can use:help: . I desperately need an upgrade.:jump: 


Bryan


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## Guest

Yup, its B for me also, I like the on board electronic x-overs and the remote

:yes: :yes: :yes:


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## lgo51

We be B'n

Consider:

Dialing down the 'A' version to be a playback-only unit, that runs the curves established by a 'dealer/installer' (using their 'B' unit, of course) or operates in a more consumer/basic mode.

For unit 'B'...

* Auto-dim for the LEDs, time-delayed after any knob diddling (retain the OFF option)
* Octave/third band-limited noise test signals
* 10 Hz - 100 kHz -0.1 dB native bandwidth
* Wood trim side panels that attach where the rack ears would otherwise mount
* RTA would need to be a FFT to get the necessary resolution for the 10-200 Hz range
* Suite of canned 'visualizations' for the video display - many folks like to be entertained :neener: 

Just my $.02,
Cheers


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## abhi

It's B for me too...


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## Guest

I already have one but I'd hppily buy another if it had all the features of B.

A USB interface so Room EQ could drive it directly would be a big help if couldn't do all the tone generation stuff.

I want it double-insulated without an earth to remove earth loop problems.

Phantom power with a mic input and auto setup would be great.

Iwant one now...where do I sign.


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## Guest

My company has some interest in developing this sort of product. Our primary goal is to produce a high quality audio product that demonstrates our new firewire technology. I think a sub woofer optimization device is a great application for this technology.

Our proposed system would consist of a capture / control device that digitizes one or two channels then processes this data with a leading edge audio DSP. The output of the capture / control device would be multiple digital audio streams over a single firewire bus. 

New Cat5 firewire technology can then take the signal up to 100m to a second unit at the speaker. This unit is simple and inexpensive about the size of a mouse. It just monitors the firewire bus and takes the appropriate audio channel information and reconstructs an analog signal for the sub woofer line in. In a future world, this unit would be built into the sub woofer. Current firewire protocols require a microprocessor and extensive logic in each of these devices. Our technology eliminates the need for a processor at each speaker and enables much less expensive systems.

This architecture enables many quality and functional improvement opportunities.


Digital signals all the way to the speaker.
No long interconnect noise issues, no hum opportunities.
Multiple sub woofer system configurations. 
One control system can offer multiple streams over one cable.
Simplified cabling, One Cat5 cable from controller to first sub, then daisy chained to next sub and so on. PC can be connected anywhere along the chain.
Graphical automated setup via firewire connection to PC.

I'm happy to discuss future product plans here because our ambition is to get our firewire technology in use in a practical implementation. If an existing audio equipment manufacturer would like to develop this device, we would be happy to adjust our plans and work with them. If not, the complexity of this device is well within our capabilities.

If we proceed with a community driven design I hope there would be opportunities to integrate this powerful processing platform with a testing system like REW.

If we could meet a $250 goal for a device that included filtering and SPL meter capabilities (microphone not included) would you consider this system from a currently unknown company?

Note, I am not proposing a replacement for the BFD. I'm taking about a home theater, low frequency (<250Hz) calibration / optimization system. I'm content to leave Behringer the live audio market the BFD was designed for.

Here are my thoughts on your list of requirements and our proposed architecture. 

~ Two independent channels.
Fine. Two independent inputs. How many independent outputs (in your wildest dreams)
~ A minimum of twelve parametric filters per channel (20 per channel is good too).
Fine. Only practicale limitation is processing artifacts and delays of multiple filters. Modern DSP's can handle this easily.
~ Channel coupling and series looping.
Probably not. All digital filtering can be accomplished in one pass at higher quality than two passes.
~ Three-way IN/OUT bypass.
Probably no analog bypass because we don't have analog outputs from the controller. Digital filters can certainly be cut in and out.
~ Input/output LED level indicators.
Definitely indicators on PC interface, possibly on front panel.
~ LED filter indicators for both channels.
Probably not.
~ Front panel display.
Very limited
~ Retain normal required buttons and jog dial.
Probably not, possible IR remote capability
~ 24-bit/96 kHz A/D and D/A converter powered by a 32-bit DSP.
Surely possible, although there needs to be a discussion on the recommended sampling rate for <250Hz signals.
~ Internal switch-mode power supply (100 - 240 V~ / 50-60hz).
Probably wall wart power supply with internal regulation.
~ Low power consumption.
Sure.
~ Adjustable input level (-10dBV / +4dBu) on rear.
Consumer line-level unbalanced input. Is more really required for a home theater box?
~ Hard bypass relay.
No.
~ Noise-free.
No fan.
~ 107db dynamic range.~ 0.007% THD.
On inputs and outputs.
~ High-quality components.~ High-quality construction.
Given
~ Balanced XLR inputs/outputs.
Required for home theater?
~ Soft power ON/OFF with selectable Auto-On detect via sub signal.
Probably
~ Eliminate turn-on thump and ground hum.
Sure, the digital interface will eliminate ground hum potential. The DSP can be responsible for pops.
~ Double insulated chassis with a two prong plug or a ground lift switch if needed to eliminate hum.
The external power supply will provide isolated 2 terminal power
~ Pure flat frequency response from 10hz to 20khz* (FBQ2496 is -3db @ 20hz).
Yes
~ Filter adjustment capabilities from 10hz to 20khz*.
Yes to below 20Hz (probably not to 20kHz as the system concept is for sub woofers).
~ Adjustable gain range from -24db to +16db for each filter.
Yes
~ Minimum of 4 to 6 memory presets.
Yes
~ Replace ¼ inch inputs/outputs with RCA inputs/outputs.
Yes
~ Simple shelf filter… (i.e. selectable linear boost between two selectable frequencies).
Yes
~ Selectable and/or variable 6db-48db/octave subsonic roll-off filter from 35hz to 10hz (minimum 5hz increments).
Yes
~ Time delay from 0 to 30msec or 1 foot increments w/ 0.1 foot fine up to 30 feet.
Yes, independent for each output, is 30 feet enough?
~ Variable phase correction/adjustment from 0-180.
Yes
~ Front panel USB and/or RS-232 interface for MIDI port (place under small flip cover like on computers).
1394
~ Dimmable front panel LED's / lights with OFF option.
Off option for free.
~ Soft blue and/or green LED's on front panel vs. red.
few LEDs
~ Offer unit in black or silver… if not optional, offer only in black.
black
~ Revamp chassis for home theater consumer appearance vs. pro-audio style.
~ Allow mounting brackets to be optional (include unattached).
~ Enclose/fill gaps on sides if mounting brackets are removed.
~ Add rubber feet to allow placement on top of other equipment.
~ Remove graphic design from top of unit.
home theater friendly
~ One year warranty.
certainly
~ Anti-clipping mechanism with higher dynamic peak input before clipping.
24 bit dynamic range may have to do. Clipping indication available.
~ Frequency readout in hertz instead of base + fine… (1hz increments w/ 0.1hz fine increments).
Yes, on PC application.
~ Bandwidth readout in octaves (1/3,1/6,1/24,1/1, etc.) or hertz (2hz,5hz,12hz,etc.) instead of 1/60, 10/60, 60/60, etc.
Yes, on PC application, ideally notation will agree with REW.
~ Front panel volume/gain to control output level to sub.
Probably not, possibly available over IR control.
~ Ability to slave multiple units together.
Unlikely, hopefully it wouldn't be necessary. Can you describe the need?
~ Linkwitz transform circuit.
Can't this be done with a digital filter? Looks like a shelf filter.
~ Detachable power cord.
Yes, wall wart.
~ Individual crossover filters (Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley) per channel w/ selectable roll-off 6db-48db/octave.
Digital crossover filters?
~ Adjustable/variable crossover range (low pass and high pass from 20hz to 200hz and w/ bypass).
Yes, if digital filters are acceptable
~ Built-in RTA mic/line input w/ phantom power and w/ GAIN control.
Yes, this would be XLR?
~ Built-in SPL meter with selectable dBA/dBC/OFF weighting.
Digital
~ Built-in test tones (sine waves - individual 1hz increments and sweep from 5hz to 400hz or 5hz to 20khz).
Yes
~ Separate RCA mic monitoring and test tone output to allow for computer program monitoring.
Don't quite understand, certainly computer program monitoring is a priority.
~ Locate RTA mic/line inputs and RCA monitoring outputs on the front face plate under a small flip cover.
possibly
~ Video output for monitoring the display would be nice, but the cost factor may prohibit this.
Display on computer connected via 1394.
~ Video display instead of LED's… (dimmable and selectable OFF).
no, but graphically rich PC interface available
~ Small and simple 6 button wireless IR remote with discrete ON/OFF buttons and Preset 1,2,3,4 buttons.
IR control could replace many front panel buttons, and interface with home theater control systems.
~ Rear IR jack for remote control… to use with repeaters.
Yes
~ Add volume/gain control button to remote if feature is made available.
More likely on remote than on front panel
~ Add other control buttons to remote if cost feasible.
Given IR control, more buttons is not a cost issue. We probably wouldn't include a remote, more likely to offer a configurations for Harmony and other programmable remotes. I know my theater doesn't need another remote!


What do you think?


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## Guest

After a quick scan of the spec, I'd buy one, but I'll give it more thought later in case I think of anything that's missing.

Please make sure it is CE approved and is RoHS and WEEE compliant so it can be distributed in the EU.

Ian.


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## rcarlton

bARRY,
Wow...sounds good if you can pull it off at that price point.


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## brucek

> ~ Balanced XLR inputs/outputs.
> 
> Required for home theater?


Absolutely. Most high end audio equipment is balanced.

Output levels are either -10dBV or +4dBu nominal levels.

Most PRO amps (used a lot for DIY subs) are balanced inputs.

brucek


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## Sonnie

> If we could meet a $250 goal for a device that included filtering and SPL meter capabilities (microphone not included) would you consider this system from a currently unknown company?


I think if it met the needs we would be all over it. After all, consider Behringer was virtually an unknown company in the home theater community and it's not like their products are high-end.

We would even help you advertise/promote the product.

How quick can we get it done and who is your company?


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## Sonnie

We should probably start a new thread for discussion of this potential unit if you guys are serious. We sure don't seem to be able to get anywhere with Behringer developing us a product.


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## Guest

I started a new thread. To discuss requirements of a new system.


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## Guest

If it was black I'd buy one. Otherwise...nahhh.


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## allredp

I would buy the A option, just simply for price concerns--though the remote control sounds very convenient!
Is this still a possibility, or has Behringer not responded at all?
-- Phil


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## Sonnie

They won't tell us anything. It is not their practice to release any info about any new products until they are released.


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## htnut12

None of those. The specs have the same failure that the present Behringer units have. No EQ below 20 hz.


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## brucek

> None of those. The specs have the same failure that the present Behringer units have. No EQ below 20 hz


Re-read the new specs....................

~ Pure flat frequency response from 10hz to 20khz* (FBQ2496 is -3db @ 20hz).
~ Filter adjustment capabilities from *10hz to 20khz**.

brucek


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## htnut12

My bad. If there is 10 hz capability then for sure I would buy one. Either A or B. :surrender:


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## Chrisbee

Why stop at 10Hz filters when 5Hz beckons.... like a siren?

With luck a number of us will be able to measure down to 5Hz quite soon.

Just because it comes in the box doesn't mean ya'll have to use it. :devil:


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## tjambro

I vote for "B". The remote with IR repeater jack is worth it alone.

-Tom A.


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## Guest

I'd by B. I use an ECM8000 to measure and having the mic pream and balanced input on the device would save me using a separate mic pre-amp.

I'm assuming it would have pass through to the PC somehow vs just using the Mic internally.


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## MakeFlat

I voted for A. For me the top 2 improvements over the 1124 would be:

In order of priority -

1. Hum isolation - just use low voltage DC power supply, like the 802 mixer.
2. Soft turn on - hmm... a time delay relay can add a bit to the cost

Edit: If the FBQ2496 is that much faster, that could be the reason to discontinue the 1124. It seems like Behringer made many similar PEQ/FBD units.


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## Chrisbee

I'm quite happy with the standard BFD but would pay more for one with a 10Hz filter range. 

Soft switch on/off would be an improvement and its absence is unforgivable these days. I overcome the problem with sequenced switch on/off. But it's a bore for my wife who needs a list to turn on/off 6 or 7 boxes just to listen to a CD.


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## ISLAND1000

All I would ever need is in unit one. If the first unit does what I want and it is cheaper than the second unit I'll take the former rather than the latter.


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## planet10

lgo51 said:


> * 10 Hz - 100 kHz -0.1 dB native bandwidth


To use one of these i would need to see 24/192 kHz sampling -- that is more or less implicit in the above comment.

dave


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## Guest

no news at all?


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## Sonnie

I suppose Behringer feels like there isn't enough interest... or they don't want to get into the consumer market. :huh:


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## jpmst3

Ya!


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## manchac

My choice is unit B, unless the "unknown company" comes through.


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## mojogoes

Yes for sure!


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## Guest

Is the product going to happen, or is B too big to do a small production run for a niche market?


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## mmountainbiker

how do I know if I need one?:scratchhead:


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## brucek

> how do I know if I need one?


Take a frequency response measure of your room with REW and then you'll know....

brucek


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## Guest

> Is the product going to happen, or is B too big to do a small production run for a niche market?


YES - B is into volume business, and I would guess the company is ignoring this entire thread. We are wasting our time!!


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## Andysu

I would greatly appreciate it if they produced a model with an LCD display that will show the shape of the bandwidth that is being adjusted by the user, that would be huge benefit at getting solutions done fast and effectively.:yay:

Also an *(audio limiter) with independent control of independent frequencies as some soundtracks in the (LFE.1 only) contain aggressive peaks that can damage some subs if used carelessly.

Thanks.


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