# My Home Theater in a Horrid Room..



## StuBerger

I am a newbie in here as well as with Home Theater... This is the only room I have to setup until we move in a few years...

I was told by a few memebers to post the pics and maybe get some feedback or help in speaker placement and acoustics. I have been having some problems with sub placement..I have been told by a few members of AVSForums that I should switch the subs where the fronts are now...I have a Pioneer VSX92TXH and have just started to grasp MCACC... When I switched them before and without rerunning MCACC, just to see how the fronts would sound moved I watched a scene in Rambo where the some captives are being led of a couple trucks to run in a field with mines...when I moved the fronts out it didn't sound right, like the people were further away to the left the what the screen was showing...I am not sure MCACC could fix that...I feel it's a imaging issue but I dont know!

Anyhow, here is my set up...I would love to get some advise and suggestions on what possible acoustic treatments I could do with all the openings and windows in the room!

Thanks all!


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## whines

Absorber panels around the speakers on the lower part of the front wall looks doable!


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## mdrake

Welcome to the Home Theater Shack!! 

I suggest getting several readings using REW and then play with the speaker placement. Then you can contact the nice folks at GIK acoustics and they can help with the placement of acoustic panels. This will make a huge difference. 

Matt


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## Dale Rasco

I would suggest try "toeing in" your front speakers a bit and definitely re-running MCACC if you have the chance. There are also some additional settings that can be made to the MCACC Pro-EQ setup that will reduce the amount of reverb. This is very hepful in cleaning up the sound of the fronts, center and surrounds as it reduces the delay time that MCACC uses to measure for reverb. I will see if I can find the text around it and post it here.


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## StuBerger

I am a newbie...I am still trying to get use to MCACC on my Pioneer...REW will have to wait! I still don't even have a SPL meter however, I will be getting one soon! The only placement I have is what you see due to the room and wifey! I tried moving the front speakers where the subs are now but I founf the sound stage was screwy.... I watched Rambo a few weeks ago and there was a scene where people were let off of a couple trucks by their captures and were made to run through a field where mines were placed...when I moved the speakers further out towards the side wall it seemed that where the people were on the screen the sounds from them seemed to be way off the screen...like you heard other people screaming....didn't sound right. It might of been that I didn't rerun MCACC after the move but I don't think MCACC could fix that...other than switching the fronts for the subs I am limited...
I will be buying two more subs (same) by the holidays to put in the rear corners to even out response!


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## Dale Rasco

Hey Stu, I found that post. It was actually at another forum. This went a very long way to correcting some of my issues and really tightens up the calibration process with MCACC. And though I have a DSP1124 and sound meter and use REW regularly, this process does not require any of those. Hope it helps.

The MCACC post can be found Here


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> I would suggest try "toeing in" your front speakers a bit and definitely re-running MCACC if you have the chance. There are also some additional settings that can be made to the MCACC Pro-EQ setup that will reduce the amount of reverb. This is very hepful in cleaning up the sound of the fronts, center and surrounds as it reduces the delay time that MCACC uses to measure for reverb. I will see if I can find the text around it and post it here.


MCACC has me lost....and when I run it...even from the instructions on the MCACC thread in AVSForums it sound alot lower on dB that without or even on a MCACC preset that hasn't been calibrated! Are you saying swap the front speakers with the subs and then toe-in more? I tried that (without re-running MCACC) and that's when I found that they sounded too far away from what is on the screen!

I placed the subs in the corners for three reasons... Pete at HSU recommended the placement due to room size and constraints..

Room constraints..lol

Alot of threads and articles about placement...http://forum.blu-ray.com/subwoofers/48286-guide-subwoofers-part-ii-standing-waves-room-modes.html

I am hoping the extra two subs will help any problems I have...My HSU's really don't sound that boomy in the corners and I have them out from the corners a bit! 

I know through reading up...that the subs, if in the front, should be 1/4 of the RW on each side but that would put them right next to the AV center...and then my fronts would be far to each side wall which was giving me that unreal sound like posted earlier.. and I noticed a equation for figuring out placement of front speakers...it goes by the room width.. from side walls...RW x .276 and RW x .447... I got close now with the side wall placement (3.30') but no way to move them out 5+ feet into the room...so I am where I am. If I could figure out a way to fix that sound thing I would switch them but I tried toe-ing them in but it still sounded like the voices were off the screen alot!


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> I would suggest try "toeing in" your front speakers a bit and definitely re-running MCACC if you have the chance. There are also some additional settings that can be made to the MCACC Pro-EQ setup that will reduce the amount of reverb. This is very hepful in cleaning up the sound of the fronts, center and surrounds as it reduces the delay time that MCACC uses to measure for reverb. I will see if I can find the text around it and post it here.


I think right now I am at 30-50ms in reverb view!


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> Hey Stu, I found that post. It was actually at another forum. This went a very long way to correcting some of my issues and really tightens up the calibration process with MCACC. And though I have a DSP1124 and sound meter and use REW regularly, this process does not require any of those. Hope it helps.
> 
> The MCACC post can be found Here


LOL...Yep..that's the forum I am on...and did the MCACC calibration from the instructions on the first page and still after I run it, it cuts the dB's of the sound like -10dB...sound muffled! And I am wondering if MCACC would correct the sound of speakers place to far in the front...isn't that just a screen versus the distance of the front speakers...the further you go the sound goes with it????


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## StuBerger

mdrake said:


> Welcome to the Home Theater Shack!!
> 
> I suggest getting several readings using REW and then play with the speaker placement. Then you can contact the nice folks at GIK acoustics and they can help with the placement of acoustic panels. This will make a huge difference.
> 
> Matt


Thanks for the welcome all...nice to be aboard! Even though I am fresh to all this!


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> I would suggest try "toeing in" your front speakers a bit and definitely re-running MCACC if you have the chance. There are also some additional settings that can be made to the MCACC Pro-EQ setup that will reduce the amount of reverb. This is very hepful in cleaning up the sound of the fronts, center and surrounds as it reduces the delay time that MCACC uses to measure for reverb. I will see if I can find the text around it and post it here.


I wish I knew more about this stuff and what I am or need to do...argghhhh!

Anyone want to come over and help....free food, drink, whatever your sin, and , you could even take off your shoes!


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## Dale Rasco

I would experiment with lowering delay time to 20-30 and see how that affects things. You will lose some of your room extension from your subs though. My only other suggestion right now would be to get that SPL meter as soon as you can and start taking some measurements via REW or even manually plotting it out so you can at least see what kind of response your getting.


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## Dale Rasco

It took me a little time to get used to the added distance when I moved my fronts out but overall my sound was vastly more immersive. Definitely give MCACC another crack at it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> It took me a little time to get used to the added distance when I moved my fronts out but overall my sound was vastly more immersive. Definitely give MCACC another crack at it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am willing to swap the fronts with the subs however it is a royal pain in the tush...

I guess tonight I will try that and re run MCACC but isn't it more important to get good sound and correct field with the mains...the subs could always be either EQ'ed or gain lowered?

How much sound field do I need in a 11' wide room...lol?

I just have my doubts that even though MCACC auto calibrates, how can it fix the sound of speakers too far away like the fronts compared to my screen (TV)...I want realistic sound and where it should be. 

I really don't hear too much boom or anything from the subs now...and looking at different posts and articles having the subs in the corners (a little away from the corners) isn't a bad thing... I am lost!

It just really bothered me listening to that movie and where the people were at near left of the screen sounded like they were off the movie and somewhere in the other room..

One question before I do the swap this weekend...if I move the subs in...they will be right next to my A/V equipment...right where the right one would be is my HT PC....do I need to worry about the sub being close to the computer and the hard drive...it would be say like 2" from the A/V stand and my computer is at the bottom of the stand on the right?


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## Dale Rasco

Unfortunately there is no silver bullet in the audio world. Most of the contributors here, myself included, will tell you it's really the starting place from which you build your sound. The main reason for that is, in the end the only opinion that counts is the one formed after listening. We have all pulled our hair out trying force everything into a particular set of standards but it really comes down to "do I like what I am hearing?". Give the MCACC a shot and see where you end up and build from that.

BTW, I would really like to know how it turns out.


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## StuBerger

Well...the swapping of the front speakers and the subs is a NO GO...I moved them yesterday and before I could even do another MCACC the wife put the kabash on the switch...the right speaker was blocking the window and was qwashed right away! Oh well, the way it is now doesn't sound bad at all...just would like to get a better grasp of MCACC and start to buy or build some acoustic treatments!

When we move after the house is done, I will make sure Stu has a dedicated HT room...then it's all up to ME!


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## Dale Rasco

Ahh, the wife factor. I to had to buy a bigger house with a dedicated room in order to get my sound to the next level. :hsd: Be sure to let us know when you get the new place and get new room setup. It would be nice to see some picks. In the meantime, take advantage of this time to get to know the MCACC and pickup an SPL meter and get familiar with REW. :T


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## StuBerger

Yes, that is going to be my objective...to get a grasp of MCACC...and buy a SPL meter! You know, when I started this thread as well as the same in other forums the idea was figuring out why MCACC wasn't getting the sound right..usually sounds muffled and not very detailed and I dont know how my subs came into the picture...probably because of the pictures..lol!

It seems that alot of people have suggested I move the subs either in and fronts out or move them....I don't hear that much "boomy" however I am new to all this! I actually placed them in the corners since Pete at HSU suggested it as well as sites that show proper sub placement...aside from having multiple subs like say in the middle of the room on each side or one in front corner and one in opposite back corners they show the two (1/4 of the RW on each side but I can't do that since the room is very narrow) up front!

I just wish I can get MCACC to stop degrading the sound so I can one, use the subs in Max Ext (since I like how the subs sound in Max Output now due to MCACC stiffling the bass) and two, start to enjoy the sound!


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## Dale Rasco

So, when you switch back and forth turning MCACC on and off, does the bass sound more open?


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> So, when you switch back and forth turning MCACC on and off, does the bass sound more open?


Yes, the sound sounds alot more detailed (sometimes a bit too loud on the center channel)...
I ran MCACC on my VSX92TXH via the instructions from a MCACC thread on the AVS froums to the letter.
I used memory 1 for that calibration and then made a copy to both 2 and 3 with using 1: Symmetry, 2: All Channel Adjust, 3: Front Channel Adjust and all three sound about the same. If I switch back and forth from those three to a memory preset that hasn't been claibrated or with MCACC off..it sound louder, and more detalied with the exception of the center channel being a bit too loud!

I wish the old days with having a dedicated EQ that you could manually move the sliders up and down were back...one thing I don't like about Pioneer's MCACC is the fact you have to exit any media to go into it and then you can't hear the changes unless it's just the pink noise...I would like to hear the media while I am making the changes!


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## Dale Rasco

When you go into the MCACC are your speakers set to small or large? If they are set to large, set them to small and set the crossover to 80Hz. Also, check the level that MCACC set the sub to. I usually bump mine up 1db to 2db but I also like a lot of bass.


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> When you go into the MCACC are your speakers set to small or large? If they are set to large, set them to small and set the crossover to 80Hz. Also, check the level that MCACC set the sub to. I usually bump mine up 1db to 2db but I also like a lot of bass.


Yes...they are set to small. When MCACC first does it's calibration, it set's them as Large but I change them to small. The crossover is set to 80Hz. I actually followed the instructions to the letter from this post in AVS Forums Official MCACC thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1112470

I know I do have alot of sound problems due to room openings and windows and the constraints I have to deal with speaker placement due to the room openings, widows and wife, as well as those glass coffee tables (which I am going to cover them up with a blanket before I do another MCACC to see if that makes a difference) but I would really like to get better sound than what I have now! Maybe the room is a acoustic nightmare for MCACC to do it's thing???

I just keep getting very low dB levels on the channel levels.. Like -6dB for the fronts and up to -7.5dB on the side's but they are closer to the LP, and the EQ always seems sparadic...

I have taken some pics of MCACC's setup...instead of typing a ton of stuff and trying to explain...see if this helps!


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## Dale Rasco

Sorry Stu, I forgot you had been using the MCACC doc at AVS. I'll check the picks when I get back from Lowes and see if anythig jumps out at me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> Sorry Stu, I forgot you had been using the MCACC doc at AVS. I'll check the picks when I get back from Lowes and see if anythig jumps out at me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you soooooooo much!


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## StuBerger

I just don't get the logic as well about swapping the subs and the fronts (which I am really not having a prob with the subs...it's the sound of the 7 other speakers...lol) and that MCACC would correct the problem of the scene I refererenced to concerning the problem. How could MCACC cure that problem? The scene in the movie clearly shows the people at the far left of the screen but in the scene...when the speakers were where the subs are now...it sounded funky...like you could see the people but their voices were off the scene far away.


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## Dale Rasco

Hey Stu, what model Klipsch do you have? I read through the string again but didn't see them listed.


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## Dale Rasco

Nothing really glares out at me. You may want to try going into manual setup and bumping the sub level 1 or 2 db. Normally after running MCACC and comparing the speaker levels on the SPL, I have to bump the sub a little. I had the same problem with my old Denon and the Audysey. Instead of -5db make it -3.5db or -3db and see how that sounds.


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> Hey Stu, what model Klipsch do you have? I read through the string again but didn't see them listed.


Here's the speaker inventory...

Fronts: Klipsch RF-82's

Center: Klipsch RC-62

Surrounds: Klipsch RS-42's x 4

Subs: HSU VTF2-MKIII's


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> Nothing really glares out at me. You may want to try going into manual setup and bumping the sub level 1 or 2 db. Normally after running MCACC and comparing the speaker levels on the SPL, I have to bump the sub a little. I had the same problem with my old Denon and the Audysey. Instead of -5db make it -3.5db or -3db and see how that sounds.


The subs are fine, I have been playing with the level and like the -5.0dB...

I want the rest of the 7 to sound good...

Come on over and give a look see.....lol!


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## Dale Rasco

Well, I noticed that the MCACC seems to have turned on the THX to small and I don't think the Klipsch are THX certified. It may be doing something funky with that. Is there a way to turn it off? My SC-05 can be toggled on and off but the display menu is a GUI and looks differently.


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> Well, I noticed that the MCACC seems to have turned on the THX to small and I don't think the Klipsch are THX certified. It may be doing something funky with that. Is there a way to turn it off? My SC-05 can be toggled on and off but the display menu is a GUI and looks differently.


To tell you the truth...I don't know why..lol..

I didn't configure MCACC to do a THX setting... I plug in the mic...and go for it!

I noticed I don't see the THX thing in speaker settings when I am in MCACC Data Check but I do see it everytime I run MCACC and then go into the manual speaker settings...hmmmmm???

Could that be a culprit? Is there anyway to turn off hte THX thing or is it because I have 7 speakers and it's seeing this...now ya got me wondering!

If ANYONE wouldn't mind helping a man ready to jump off a bridge (lucky we don't have bridges here...actually we have one but it's only a 3' drop!) please feel free to call ..... 618-395-8038


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## Dale Rasco

It was good talking to you Stu, please let me know how the changes we discussed turn out. Talk to you soon.


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> It was good talking to you Stu, please let me know how the changes we discussed turn out. Talk to you soon.


Dale, feeling is mutual...thanks sooo much for the call and I do hope to talk some more with ya!..

Okay, while the wife was asleep..(lol)...I moved the fronts as suggested and re-ran MCACC...here's what happend:

It still seems like the speakers are too far from the viewing screen...the scene I used as reference still sounded like the people talking and screaming weren't in the movie...while the scene was then playing I moved the speakers closer to the TV and found a sweet spot where it sounded "normal" to me..right where they were before!

Also, the subs, being in closer to the TV didn't sound better or worse! Maybe since how small th room is having two just fills in the room nicely!

But then again, I am fresh to all this HT stuffola!

And yes, kicking up the channel levels on the speakers seem to get the sound back to where I like it...yes oh wise one, I will buy a SPL today or tomorrow fo sure...might be too busy today! Also, setting the fronts too large seemed to have a little effect... I couldn't really tell since we had company over and then by time I did that MCACC test I couldn't crank up the volume with music so...... today is a new day!


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## Dale Rasco

Well, it sounds like you're on the right track with the SPL, at least then you can see what db MCACC is setting the speakers to. Keep me posted, I'll be anxious to hear the results. :bigsmile:


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## Dale Rasco

Hey Stu, I haven't heard from you in a week and wanted to check in and see how it was going. Were you able to get that SPL meter? Hope all is going well. :sn:


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## Toby Jack

I'd say you have a pretty clever setup for the room you had to work with. I have an even smaller room so I understand the challenge.onder:


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## StuBerger

Toby Jack said:


> I'd say you have a pretty clever setup for the room you had to work with. I have an even smaller room so I understand the challenge.onder:


Thanks Toby Jack....Hopefully the next home we get I will be afforded a dedicated HT room! How about getting some pics of your setup on the forum!


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> Hey Stu, I haven't heard from you in a week and wanted to check in and see how it was going. Were you able to get that SPL meter? Hope all is going well. :sn:


Dale, I had a death in the family early last week and was in the Chicagoland area for the full week. Now that I am back I will be getting the SPL and doing some measurements!


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## Dale Rasco

StuBerger said:


> Dale, I had a death in the family early last week and was in the Chicagoland area for the full week. Now that I am back I will be getting the SPL and doing some measurements!


I'm really sorry to hear about your loss Stu. Please let me know if I can help answer any questions you have when you do finally get started. Take care and talk to you soon.....


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## Toby Jack

StuBerger said:


> Thanks Toby Jack....Hopefully the next home we get I will be afforded a dedicated HT room! How about getting some pics of your setup on the forum!


We actually just got new furniture today and rearranged everything. I have been waiting for this day for a long time. As soon as I get everything looking snazzy I will start my thread. Can't wait.


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## Dale Rasco

Toby Jack said:


> We actually just got new furniture today and rearranged everything. I have been waiting for this day for a long time. As soon as I get everything looking snazzy I will start my thread. Can't wait.


Can't wait to see the pics!


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## StuBerger

Hi Dale, sorry I haven't called sooner but was out of town and hardly any internet access...I am back in town and will call you either tonight or tomorrow...hope all is well with you and yours!


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## Dale Rasco

I'll be around this evening and tomorrow. Be at moms on Sunday..


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## StuBerger

dsr7997 said:


> I'll be around this evening and tomorrow. Be at moms on Sunday..


Dale, sorry I haven't gotten back to you sooner, I have been awfully busy, I will try to call tonight or tomorrow...hope all is well!


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## Dale Rasco

Everything is going well here, just finished the in-wall A/V cabinet. Look forward to hearing from you when you get the time.


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## StuBerger

Dale Rasco said:


> Everything is going well here, just finished the in-wall A/V cabinet. Look forward to hearing from you when you get the time.


Dale, PM me your number again...


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