# Benifits of 2 Subs?



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Ok, so roughly 3 years ago I was able to talk my wonderful wife into a real subwoofer (SVS PB-12NSD). My wonderful wife paid for this wonderful box and I believe with my HTS brethren's help I might just get that second sub. Please explain to her the benefits of 2 subs. Thanks fellas!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Two subs will fill the room with much more even low frequencies. It does not mean louder (although that can be done) it means that the really low frequencies will seem much richer and clean. Effortless may be a better word. A lot of time with only one sub you tend to have peaks in the higher frequencies that will sound out of place and boomy, with two subs you can tune them in so that both play much more evenly all the way down to below 15Hz.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Two subs will fill the room with much more even low frequencies. It does not mean louder (although that can be done) it means that the really low frequencies will seem much richer and clean. Effortless may be a better word. A lot of time with only one sub you tend to have peaks in the higher frequencies that will sound out of place and boomy, with two subs you can tune them in so that both play much more evenly all the way down to below 15Hz.


Thanks Tony. So to be clear the sub won't have to work as hard and will be more quite? Less bass?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

LOL, less boomy bass and smoother response over the entire room and they don't work as hard.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Ok, just ordered myself a second SVS PB-12NSD. Hopefully Sonnie will intervene with a repeat HTS/SVS frequent flyer discount.


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## Basshead81 (Apr 9, 2013)

a second sub will add another 6db of headroom depending on placement. Duals only require 50% cone excursion to equal the output of a single sub, so that means ultra clean bass and components will live longer. A single sub can not smooth any room modes, duals can( again depending on placement). 4 subs can smooth all room modes. Imo multiple subs are the best approach if one has the budget and room to accomodate them. EQ should be the last resort...


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I was actually happy with just my one sub so having the second should only make things all the better. Who knows…maybe after I get the other one I'll kick myself for not doing it sooner. Part of my problem is my wife is a enabler when it comes to my addictions.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> ....maybe after I get the other one I'll kick myself for not doing it sooner.


Please don't get angry with yourself and if you don't have pictures, it never happened. Selfies of you kicking yourself, will be expected. 

(and if you're not a nimble personality, selfies of the wife kicking you will be more than acceptable)

...


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> I was actually happy with just my one sub so having the second should only make things all the better. Who knows…maybe after I get the other one I'll kick myself for not doing it sooner. Part of my problem is my wife is a enabler when it comes to my addictions.


Well at least this habit isn't self destructive! (Except maybe to the Sheetrock!) You may not kick yourself, but I will say, a great many questions will be answered, without words. I was always afraid when I had only one, that I'd wreck my sub by asking to much of it.(no I don't run super hot) With two, I very rarely question at all. Congrats btw!


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Thanks, pretty excited about the possibilities of improvement to the overall sound come movie nights. It was a bit weird emailing Sonnie now that he's with SVS. Not in a bad way just that sometimes I forget he's no longer co-owner of HTS.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> Thanks, pretty excited about the possibilities of improvement to the overall sound come movie nights.


...:T

Have you taken the time to download and install a freeware copy of REW? If you haven't, please do and if you already have, cool.


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## John N (Jan 2, 2007)

If you run two subs , one close to each front speaker , the low bass will be less directional because you wont be running them as hot as a single.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

John N said:


> If you run two subs , one close to each front speaker , the low bass will be less directional because you wont be running them as hot as a single.


Subwoofers act differently than speakers. For most, bass below 80Hz is found to be non-directional. Placing two subwoofers symmetrically on the same wall is a guarantee to have standing wave, null issues at the (MLP) main listening position.

This is the why of the need for room measuring software, so one can measure output and room acoustic interactions. If you don't know already, and if you do, please say so, being able to measure and adjust subwoofer placement and settings to allow for subwoofer created sound wave interactions is the "ONLY" way to compensate for a subwoofer based sound reproduction system.


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## sr71 (Nov 9, 2011)

do it....for all the reasons noted above.... love my dual subs


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Got my tracking number today and the sub will be here Monday. Short of rearranging my entire living room I'm going to be somewhat limited on placement locations. I have a spot picked out and I'll have my fingers crossed on the results. I know the sub picks the location more so than I do so we'll see. I may have to do the REW thing.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> Short of rearranging my entire living room I'm going to be somewhat limited on placement locations.


I hate it when that happens. And then there's this WAF thingy that limits placement even that much more. 



> I know the sub picks the location more so than I do so we'll see.


Yes. Agreed. Subs are more like cats than dogs.



> I may have to do the REW thing.


Please do. It's a pain to get up and running because the GUI and setup are anything but intuitive but once up and running, it's quite literally, point-n-click. The beauty of REW, it shows you in realtime where the valleys are that's sucking the life out of your bass and you can see the humps that give a subwoofer a one note character. Have I mentioned how much I love REW?

...:whistling:


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Yes, REW might be necessary although my avoidance has mostly been I haven't really felt the need. Ignorance is bliss and to be honest I've just been content with the audio side of things. Not really sure I need the second sub because the bass has always been great for the only two seating positions that matter. I do expect some improvement at other positions though.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> Yes, REW might be necessary although my avoidance has mostly been I haven't really felt the need. Ignorance is bliss and to be honest I've just been content with the audio side of things. Not really sure I need the second sub because the bass has always been great for the only two seating positions that matter. I do expect some improvement at other positions though.


...LOL.

REW is not that tough to learn and the rewards of listening to a properly dialed in subwoofer system far exceed the effort put forth getting REW up and running.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> ...LOL. REW is not that tough to learn and the rewards of listening to a properly dialed in subwoofer system far exceed the effort put forth getting REW up and running.


I think bee is goin the right way. At the very least I'd recommend grabbing the SPL meter, and get phase right. Even that simple thing could ruin the experience. However, if it's right, wow! I recently had a 3rd sub in my system(fixing for a friend), and once I got all 3 playing nice, man it was great. I gave it back and gave my system a listen. Not as good, but once I set my 2 up right again, it was back to normal(good way). Just sayin, a little goes a long way.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Just sayin, a little goes a long way.


I spent a bit over a year on a subwoofer based sojourn and tilted with a few windmills along the way. It was quite the adventure upgrading drivers, learning about radiators, outboard appliances such as the Anti-Mode 8033S II, REW and Audyssey. When the sojourn ended, we had a fair layperson's knowledge of REW, room acoustics, phase, standing waves, reinforcement/subtraction issues, near field placement, two killer subs and a bunch more knowledge a normal person wouldn't be troubled by. Now? Now we turn the system on, enter the Home Theater house curve and watch movies, secure in the knowledge we have the best I could possibly give us, with what we have and yes, when a movie is accompanied by a decent sound track, for two hours we're swept away into another time and place and all that is present in our lives, for two precious hours, is forgotten.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I have dB Meter Pro that I use for SPL measurements. I have been reading up on several articles in regards to making two subs play nicely. When I can I'll post some pics of where I "want" to put the second sub. I also plan on purchasing a mic and downloading REW just to make sure all is well with the room. There's really only so much I can do because this is our living room and has to remain functional in that capacity.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> There's really only so much I can do because this is our living room and has to remain functional in that capacity.


I hate it when that happens. Fortunately for us, the wife allowed me to hide one of the subs nearfield, behind the loveseat.

In our case, using REW as a guide, I had many a subwoofer session, trying out all sorts of combinations and finally, with the combined interaction of experience, XT32 w/SubEQ HT and REW, we finally got it right.


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## bmoney003 (Nov 21, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> Subwoofers act differently than speakers. For most, bass below 80Hz is found to be non-directional. Placing two subwoofers symmetrically on the same wall is a guarantee to have standing wave, null issues at the (MLP) main listening position. This is the why of the need for room measuring software, so one can measure output and room acoustic interactions. If you don't know already, and if you do, please say so, being able to measure and adjust subwoofer placement and settings to allow for subwoofer created sound wave interactions is the "ONLY" way to compensate for a subwoofer based sound reproduction system.


Placing two subwoofers on the same wall symmetrically does NOT guarantee a standing wave

Please try not to post generalities when it's not true 

Only way you'll know is by measuring. I have such the setup of subs symmetrically placed on the same wall and my response is very very flat with no nulls


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I also have my sub placed close to our MLP's.



















This is where I'm hoping the new sub can reside.









It's somewhat open to our kitchen and the hallway is directly in front of this location. I'm hoping this isn't a problem.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

bmoney003 said:


> Placing two subwoofers on the same wall symmetrically does NOT guarantee a standing wave


I see you didn't finish reading the sentence. Let's see what I did post when my comments aren't parsed:

"Placing two subwoofers symmetrically on the same wall is a guarantee to have standing wave, null issues at the (MLP) main listening position."

We're just guys having online conversations and generalities is how conversations go in my neck of the woods.

Tests have shown, putting two subs on the same wall, is a bad idea. I encourage everybody to go with their heart and ignore anything that doesn't meet their expectations. Just saying, I leave the arguing to "The Other Forum."



> I have such the setup of subs symmetrically placed on the same wall and my response is very very flat with no nulls


I'd love to see your graphs as what you describe is a rare treat indeed.



JBrax said:


> It's somewhat open to our kitchen and the hallway is directly in front of this location. I'm hoping this isn't a problem.


Trying to get a pair of subs placed can surprisingly be a huge undertaking.


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## bmoney003 (Nov 21, 2012)

Leave the arguing to the other forum?! Pretty sure you are arguing here By saying A null at the mlp. Well where else would it matter most?!? You make no sense Here is my response:






Is that flat enough for you for your "rare treat"


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Very nice bass graph. Thanks for the posting effort.



bmoney003 said:


> Leave the arguing to the other forum?! Pretty sure you are arguing here


Well, you would be wrong. Based on what you've posted, you got lucky. I'd run with that and be happy.


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## bmoney003 (Nov 21, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> Very nice bass graph. Thanks for the posting effort. Well, you would be wrong. Based on what you've posted, you got lucky. I'd run with that and be happy.


 Ok. I got lucky lol 

Care to share your stellar setup? I mean you MUST have everything setup perfectly and flat as can be right?!


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

bmoney003 said:


> Ok. I got lucky lol
> 
> Care to share your stellar setup? I mean you MUST have everything setup perfectly and flat as can be right?!




Absolutely. A lot of education and money went into that graph. Our room was not so kind as yours.

 

The love seat has recently been replaced. The new love seat comes with electric reclining capabilities and in two weeks, the wife will have her chair replaced with a matching chair.

...:bigsmile:


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## bmoney003 (Nov 21, 2012)

Still not seeing how I have a "magic" room...

But nice setup and graph 

Wait is that pic of the front soundstage from your mlp?!


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

bmoney003 said:


> Still not seeing how I have a "magic" room but...
> 
> Anyhow. Very nice setup and graph.


Thanks!

Over the last year, on the other forum, I spoke with hundreds of folks who were having null problems. Accurate or inaccurate, statistically, I spoke with enough people about the problems they were having with room acoustics, to know the generalized comment I made was accurate.

If it helps, I have no trouble with generalized statements as I've left the OCD behavior of my younger years in my past. Now? I find it doesn't matter.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

bmoney003 said:


> Wait is that pic of the front soundstage from your mlp?!


It's from the wife's position. This is from my position:



What did I do wrong?


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## bmoney003 (Nov 21, 2012)

Nothing.  I was just wondering why the setup wasn't facing the mlp directly. That's all

Go about your business


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

bmoney003 said:


> Nothing.
> 
> ---snip---
> 
> Go about your business


Oh good. I thought I was in trouble again.

...


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

So it seems that placing a sub in a corner can be both good and bad? I guess I'll just have to try it and see how it sounds. Have any of you tried corner placement with your subs and how did it fare?


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

JBrax said:


> So it seems that placing a sub in a corner can be both good and bad? I guess I'll just have to try it and see how it sounds. Have any of you tried corner placement with your subs and how did it fare?


Corner sub, followed by dual subs after knocking down a peak or two and adding a little house curve:


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Bear123 said:


> Corner sub, followed by dual subs after knocking down a peak or two and adding a little house curve:


Thanks for the reply but I really have no idea how to read those graphs. I know flat is good…right?


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Did you leave one of the subs in the corner and after tweaking was able to flatten the measurement out?


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Yes, I used the same corner that the single sub was placed in. The flat line means that all bass frequencies are played with equivalent loudness at the MLP, rather than having some frequencies very loud and boomy and others very low. A 6 dB change in SPL is either double or half the output. So the 12 dB null in the first graph near 50 Hz means that frequencies between 40-60 Hz dipped down to be one fourth as loud as the rest of the bass frequencies.

The slow rise in SPL down to 16 Hz in the last graph was added intentionally. It is low in frequency so it does not affect the sound for music, but adds a lot of impact for LFE when watching movies, since I do not listen at reference. -15 provides incredible shaking and rumbling on good bass flicks.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Thank you for the explanation. That's comforting to know that if there are problems with me placing my second sub in the corner that they can be fixed.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Dual subs are often the best solution to getting to the point where problems can be fixed. The only fix for the null I had was another sub. Eq can knock down peaks, but will not help with large nulls. Although I could have improved the response on the first graph with eq, I could not have gotten it completely flat.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> Have any of you tried corner placement with your subs and how did it fare?


Did great until I put the chair back in place and then everything went South. My understanding, the main benefit of corner placement is the 6dB gain one gets from corner reinforcement.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> Did great until I put the chair back in place and then everything went South. My understanding, the main benefit of corner placement is the 6dB gain one gets from corner reinforcement.


The gain is great and all but I don't want boomy or muddy bass to achieve the gain. I probably should have delved into REW long ago but like I said I never really felt the need. I just hope that by adding the second sub and having limited placement options for it I'm not creating problems that never existed before.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Bear123 said:


> Dual subs are often the best solution to getting to the point where problems can be fixed. The only fix for the null I had was another sub. Eq can knock down peaks, but will not help with large nulls. Although I could have improved the response on the first graph with eq, I could not have gotten it completely flat.


Without ever measuring I guess I'll never have known for sure if I did have any problems with the single sub. All I know is I've had/heard boomy subs and even without measurements I know the one placed near our two main seating positions was pretty amazing.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> The gain is great and all but I don't want boomy or muddy bass to achieve the gain. I probably should have delved into REW long ago but like I said I never really felt the need. I just hope that by adding the second sub and having limited placement options for it I'm not creating problems that never existed before.


From my experience, boomy bass is caused by overdriving the subwoofer gain. My understanding, muddiness is caused by poorly integrated acoustics as different frequencies are running into each other, cancelling and reinforcing so reinforced waves are running over cancelled waves, so all that's left is a blur.

It's never to late to delve into REW. REW is the best thing someone can add in the fight to get decent bass sound in their room. With REW, there's hope.

Just saying, nearfield placement corrects for a multitude of sonic sins and gives the sonic benefit of up to +10dB worth of tactile feel.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I don't know that any "sonic sins" were committed? What I do know is it was more than adequate with the single sub placed next to us. I also know that the previous sub placed in the same exact spot was boomy and muddy at times with a serious case of port chuffing. I definitely plan on downloading REW and picking up the mic.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> I don't know that any "sonic sins" were committed?


Sorry for the confusing comment. Sonic sins are troubles caused by placement and the acoustics of the room.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> Sorry for the confusing comment. Sonic sins are troubles caused by placement and the acoustics of the room.


I understood what you were saying.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> I don't know that any "sonic sins" were committed? What I do know is it was more than adequate with the single sub placed next to us. I also know that the previous sub placed in the same exact spot was boomy and muddy at times with a serious case of port chuffing. I definitely plan on downloading REW and picking up the mic.


Boominess can also come from a driver/amp without enough damping. The result is mud from lack of driver control. Some less expensive subs have boost tuned in to them, I think between 30 and 50hz. This can add to it also. 
I am corner loaded too. I'm around 7000cuft, so I need the gain. Despite the size, bass is good, and I'm actually pretty sure the size helps in the sense that I have room for those really long bass waves to stretch out. I understand your concern for making a good thing bad with limited placement options. I still think your best chance is with two. ...might take some fussin though.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

One last question. I know to try both ways to see what sounds best but…should the driver be pointed towards the open hallway or towards the wall on the other side of the room.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> One last question. I know to try both ways to see what sounds best but…should the driver be pointed towards the open hallway or towards the wall on the other side of the room.[/QUOTE I think most would say it doesn't matter, but my gut says pointing it down a hallway would be like trying to fill a lake with a garden hose.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

That's kind of what I was thinking.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> ...should the driver be pointed towards the open hallway or towards the wall on the other side of the room.


Sound waves have a wrap around effect and because of their length and the wrap around effect, bass waves are omnidirectional. This is why you can have dual opposed drivers or single drivers point toward the room or the floor. My understanding, one needs three to five inches of space between the driver face and the wall.

Hopefully, someone more knowledgeable on this matter than I will chime in on this point.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> Sound waves have a wrap around effect and because of their length and the wrap around effect, bass waves are omnidirectional. This is why you can have dual opposed drivers or single drivers point toward the room or the floor. My understanding, one needs three to five inches of space between the driver face and the wall. Hopefully, someone more knowledgeable on this matter than I will chime in on this point.


I think pointing at the floor is different than down the hall. I know LF sound waves are considered omni directional, but why then when measuring subs don't they point the mic at one of the panels without the driver? Or some people with Kreisel subs designed to be fired into the corner? (I think a staff member found his solution this way) Or even claims of better results firing along a wall? I'm guessing here, but I think that sound wave origination point and direction are contributors to overall sound. Just my .02.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> ...but why then when measuring subs don't they point the mic at one of the panels without the driver?


By close mic'g a driver measurement, one is removing the influences of the environment. The further away from the driver, more influence enters the measurement.

Working with your question, due to distance, there is fall off and in the case of down firing, measurements are taken with the sub on it's side and in the case of dual driver subwoofers, a correction formula is used so the measurements reflect both drivers as opposed to a single driver unit.

Hopefully, this explanation from Data-Bass will give a better answer regarding your question to me.

I'm not going lay claim to being an expert as the best I'll lay claim to, is being that of an incompetent old fool. I'm simply trying to respond in the simple to a very complex question.

As to the bass energy running down the hall, intuitively, that's what one is naturally going think but with bass waves being >20' in length, a narrow three foot wide hall way is not going suck the life out of a very long wave. My understanding, the openings in the room need to equal >50% of the length of the longest wall. If one is worried, turn the subwoofer as there's nothing in sound reproduction that breeds security regarding how it works within the confines of a room's acoustics.


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## John N (Jan 2, 2007)

BeeMan458 said:


> Subwoofers act differently than speakers. For most, bass below 80Hz is found to be non-directional. Placing two subwoofers symmetrically on the same wall is a guarantee to have standing wave, null issues at the (MLP) main listening position.
> 
> .


I never said symmetrically ... 

I judge everything with music first because I listen/ watch concerts 80% to 20% movies . I think you can get away with more as far as placement and your sub level with movies over music. ( I don't believe bass is non directional and if your crossover is at 80hz , you are still getting a lot of info above that)

If your sub level is too hot with music , the image will collapse . I currently have one JTR Orbit shifter and I know if I had a second one , I could lower the level of both and the bass would be more even and louder . (i used to have twin VMPS subs)


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

John N said:


> I never said symmetrically ...


I'm not trying to split hairs in my comment. Here's what you posted that I responded to:

"If you run two subs , one close to each front speaker ,"

Most people set their front speakers up symmetrically. If someone's speakers are not set up symmetrically, then you're correct, my comment would not apply to their situation.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Please keep in mind that when I asked if it would be better to point towards the opposing wall or towards the hallway that the opposing wall is about 15 feet away from the actual driver.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Again, this is a picture of where I want to put the second sub. The sub placed against the wall where you see the surround speaker would be down the hallway. The other wall would put the driver pointed towards the opposing wall that is approximately 15 feet away.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> Please keep in mind that when I asked if it would be better to point towards the opposing wall or towards the hallway that the opposing wall is about 15 feet away from the actual driver.


Without measurements, nobody can tell for certain. Again, my understanding, due to the length of the bass sound wave, it will make little to no difference but with measurements, one can tell for sure.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> I think pointing at the floor is different than down the hall. I know LF sound waves are considered omni directional,* but why then when measuring subs don't they point the mic at one of the panels without the driver?* Or some people with Kreisel subs designed to be fired into the corner? (I think a staff member found his solution this way) Or even claims of better results firing along a wall? I'm guessing here, but I think that sound wave origination point and direction are contributors to overall sound. Just my .02.


The reason for measuring subs the same way is due to the distance of the mic to the driver. If the mic is 2 meters from the cab, facing the driver, it will be further away from the driver if the driver is facing down instead of towards the mic. This reduces the SPL, since SPL is dependent on distance. Which way a driver faces in a room should make little to no difference. Corner loading increases efficiency and boosts output for ANY sub, Kreisel did not invent this in some magical way for only their subs, although their marketing leads uninformed consumers to believe that is the case.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Guess what I'm doing tonight?


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Sweet!

Having fun tonight.

...:bigsmile:


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Now that I have 2 subs I'm really wondering how much improvement I'd experience with XT32?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> Now that I have 2 subs I'm really wondering how much improvement I'd experience with XT32?


One it starts.....
Lol, congrats!


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

JBrax said:


> Guess what I'm doing tonight?


Dropping off my new sub?


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Quick question…can the sub be upside down?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Hmmm, it would depend on the design as far as functionality it does not matter what direction the driver is facing as long as it can breath. I highly doubt it matters if the sub is turned on it's top rather then the bottom.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Never mind, not doing it.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

JBrax said:


> Now that I have 2 subs I'm really wondering how much improvement I'd experience with XT32?


Honestly, because the subs have their own adjustments on them as well you should be able to dile them in without having XT32. Even XT is quite capable.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Honestly, because the subs have their own adjustments on them as well you should be able to dile them in without having XT32. Even XT is quite capable.


You're probably right. Pretty frustrated here. Picked up a 24 ft sub cable and I need 25 ft! Grrr!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Oh don't you just hate that! Can you temporarily run it across the floor as the crow flies just to get levels?


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Having had and used XT (due to it's shortcomings, we added Anti-Mode 8033S II) and by comparison, I find XT to be an official waste of time compared to the results provided by XT32 w/SubEQ HT. An added benefit to aid in finishing the dialing in the dual subwoofers, the two subs each have a PEQ. Very nice.

Getting XT32 w/SubEQ HT was like pulling a long lost thorn out of the finger. I'm now spoiled and have no chance of ever purchasing an AVR that has anything less than XT32. If one can, get XT32 because in my opinion, it makes a huge difference.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Oh don't you just hate that! Can you temporarily run it across the floor as the crow flies just to get levels?


I could but I really want everything in place tonight. I might do some cutting here as a workaround.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> Having had and used XT (due to it's shortcomings, we added Anti-Mode 8033S II) and by comparison, I find XT to be an official waste of time compared to the results provided by XT32 w/SubEQ HT. An added benefit to aid in finishing the dialing in the dual subwoofers, the two subs each have a PEQ. Very nice. Getting XT32 w/SubEQ HT was like pulling a long lost thorn out of the finger. I'm now spoiled and have no chance of ever purchasing an AVR that has anything less than XT32. If one can, get XT32 because in my opinion, it makes a huge difference.


You're not helping.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> You're not helping.


I am not the voice of reason and I'm a Home Theater enabler. :bigsmile:


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

My workaround isn't the prettiest but this gave me the inch I needed.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

One more question. After running Audyssey I should level match each speaker to 75 db correct?


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## Tin_Ears (Aug 7, 2012)

JBrax said:


> My workaround isn't the prettiest but this gave me the inch I needed.


Why didn't you just drill a hole?


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Tin_Ears said:


> Why didn't you just drill a hole?


...:scratch:

I went with, he's not a carpenter.

...:gulp:



JBrax said:


> One more question. After running Audyssey I should level match each speaker to 75 db correct?


At the MLP, yes.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> One more question. After running Audyssey I should level match each speaker to 75 db correct?


Depending on how hot you want them. If you want total output to be 75 then set each one to about 72-ish. Turn off one, set the other, then repeat for the second. Then turn them both on and check the spl meter. If you need to adjust, go into the AVR, and trim accordingly to get 75. If you like em hot, set your initial individual levels where you want(77db ea, for combined 80). Mine usually are 3db low when measured singly. Ymmv. Havin fun yet? Lol!


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Depending on how hot you want them. If you want total output to be 75 then set each one to about 72-ish.


Subwoofer before Audyssey is run, speakers after Audyssey is run.

...:nerd:


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Tin_Ears said:


> Why didn't you just drill a hole?


I did! Although it was a big hole! Not a carpenter.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Just demo'd War of the Worlds and The Dark Knight. I'm not changing a thing…speechless!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> Just demo'd War of the Worlds and The Dark Knight. I'm not changing a thing…speechless!


Yeah!


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> Just demo'd War of the Worlds and The Dark Knight. I'm not changing a thing…speechless!


...:clap:


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Really speechless! My wife wants me to order another sub but I don't think I have room for it. What about XT32?


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I love the sound!


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## bmoney003 (Nov 21, 2012)

JBrax said:


> Really speechless! My wife wants me to order another sub but I don't think I have room for it. What about XT32?


Said no man ever...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

JBrax said:


> Really speechless! My wife wants me to order another sub but I don't think I have room for it. What about XT32?


Your wife wants you to order a 3rd sub! what are you waiting for? you will make room even if you stack one on top of another 
I take it you like


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> Really speechless! My wife wants me to order another sub but I don't think I have room for it. What about XT32?


Don't worry about XT32. That's another AVR. Upgrade both your subs to a pair of PB-2000s.

Janis Joplin:


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

JBrax said:


> What about XT32?



Exactly. Order the sub....quickly before she talks to her normal woman friends at their weekly "how to deter your husbands home theater hobby" meeting. Its a real thing.


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## Tin_Ears (Aug 7, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> Exactly. Order the sub....quickly before she talks to her *normal woman friends* at their weekly "how to deter your husbands home theater hobby" meeting. Its a real thing.


Huh...??? Do those really exist??:huh: Where are they? I'd like to meet at least one.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Your wife wants you to order a 3rd sub! what are you waiting for? you will make room even if you stack one on top of another  I take it you like


Yes, really liking the fullness of the bass. Hard to describe but I would say it's fuller and effortless.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> Don't worry about XT32. That's another AVR. Upgrade both your subs to a pair of PB-2000s. Janis Joplin: Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0FlTjvQLgw


Nah, I'm good. If I were going to upgrade my subs (which I'm not) it would be something not so similar to what I already own.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

So here are the spots my subs reside. I haven't measured but plan on doing so once I get my UMIK1 mic. Strictly going by ear alone but I'm happy with the sound. I'm not getting a third sub because I don't have the room and really don't think I need it. My next purchase might just be a projector and screen. I'm not sure if I can swing it in the living room but plan on looking into it. I could set everything up in the basement but my wife is into crafting and jewelry making and that pretty much dominates downstairs.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

JBrax said:


> Really speechless! My wife wants me to order another sub but I don't think I have room for it. What about XT32?


Stack the subs!!! Or maybe you can fit in some ultras the PC is slimming after all.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

B- one said:


> Stack the subs!!! Or maybe you can fit in some ultras the PC is slimming after all.


STOP! You're not helping!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

B- one said:


> Stack the subs!!! Or maybe you can fit in some ultras the PC is slimming after all.


Yep! PCs are great! Plus, I think you get multi sub discount!!!


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> Yep! PCs are great! Plus, I think you get multi sub discount!!!


Sonnie if you're reading this…call me and let's talk.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> Sonnie if you're reading this…call me and let's talk.


Im sorry jbrax...oh wait. No I'm not!
J/k, welcome to multiple subs!


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> Im sorry jbrax...oh wait. No I'm not! J/k, welcome to multiple subs!


No need to be sorry. If Sonnie does call and offer something good I have a green light for a couple of PC Ultras. Not sure I want or need that though. My wife is the ultimate enabler!


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> If Sonnie does call and offer something good I have a green light for a couple of PC Ultras. Not sure I want or need that though. My wife is the ultimate enabler!






> Not sure I want or need that though.


If it's in the budget and you have a green light.....absolutely you do. You may not want it, but you definitely need it. You have no idea what you're turning away.

(you're driving me nuts with those kind of comments)

...









If you want to save money, buy a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs and rock the joint. But what ever you do, don't turn down your wife's offer. This is not a time to stand on any principal of responsibility. If buying subwoofers, money can buy happiness.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> If it's in the budget and you have a green light.....absolutely you do. You may not want it, but you definitely need it. You have no idea what you're turning away. (you're driving me nuts with those kind of comments) If you want to save money, buy a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs and rock the joint. But what ever you do, don't turn down your wife's offer. This is not a time to stand on any principal of responsibility. If buying subwoofers, money can buy happiness.


It's not so much about budget. I've paid for my kids' college and we save more than we need for retirement. It's more about how much bass do we really need and can it get much better than we already have? I feel very fortunate to be where we are in life and I'm just not sure about trying to improve upon what is pretty good (amazing) already. The helicopters flying overhead and the rounds being fired in Lone Survivor had us speechless!


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> It's more about how much bass do we really need and can it get much better than we already have?


I have been all over this dog looking for fleas. What I came up with, one needs to get as close to single digits as they can afford and they need a subwoofer system that will provide reference level bass with ease. That's in a nutshell, how much bass folks like us need.

In the case of subwoofers, when it comes to peak output, one can always turn it down but if the ability isn't there, you can't turn it up. I wish I had a way of sharing with you what we experience at home.

One of the things that I read time and again when reading about GTGs was "smile factor" and I read all about Seaton and JTR Captivators getting the "smile factor" award. Without a capable system, when compared to systems that are capable of high "smile factor," everything else was a let down.

In order to experience the above, one has to be willing to go there. We went there. I'm glad we did. I want everybody to go there. I want nobody left behind. I want everybody to experience bass waves coursing through the room. It may only happen every fifth or six movie sound track and it may be but a few seconds in a movie's total output but when it happens, it's an absolutely amazing experience that makes it all worthwhile.

Maybe a pair of PSA XS30ses. Maybe a pair of PSA XV30Fses. There's a lot to choose from but in my opinion, the Rythmik is the "Top Dog" of this class of subwoofers.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> I have been all over this dog looking for fleas. What I came up with, one needs to get as close to single digits as they can afford and they need a subwoofer system that will provide reference level bass with ease. That's in a nutshell, how much bass folks like us need. In the case of subwoofers, when it comes to peak output, one can always turn it down but if the ability isn't there, you can't turn it up. I wish I had a way of sharing with you what we experience at home. One of the things that I read time and again when reading about GTGs was "smile factor" and I read all about Seaton and JTR Captivators getting the "smile factor" award. Without a capable system, when compared to systems that are capable of high "smile factor," everything else was a let down. In order to experience the above, one has to be willing to go there. We went there. I'm glad we did. I want everybody to go there. I want nobody left behind. I want everybody to experience bass waves coursing through the room. It may only happen every fifth or six movie sound track and it may be but a few seconds in a movie's total output but when it happens, it's an absolutely amazing experience that makes it all worthwhile. Maybe a pair of PSA XS30ses. Maybe a pair of PSA XV30Fses. There's a lot to choose from but in my opinion, the Rythmik is the "Top Dog" of this class of subwoofers.


I applaud your conviction and you certainly have piqued my interest in seeking what it is I might not have. Shame on you!


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> I applaud your conviction and you certainly have piqued my interest in seeking what it is I might not have. Shame on you!


I and your wife have two things in common, we're both enablers and we're both trying to enable you.

...


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> I and your wife have two things in common, we're both enablers and we're both trying to enable you. ...


So very true. For some reason I'm thinking the wow factor upgrade would be from a 55" tv to a 120-144" projector. Just sayin…


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## Tin_Ears (Aug 7, 2012)

^^^ If you have plenty of money then you need BOTH!!


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> So very true. For some reason I'm thinking the wow factor upgrade would be from a 55" tv to a 120-144" projector. Just sayin…


I can live with and enjoy our 60" flat screen. I can't live without our sound system. Maybe one day, we'll upgrade to a larger screen but right now, there's no need because the 60" is working fine and going to larger screens won't improve image quality or color saturation.

Now, we have efficient speakers, a killer amplifier section, a Top Dog room correction software and subwoofers to die for. In my opinion, that's what it's all about, no regrets, no remorse and no wishing for better. I spent the better part of a year-and-a-half looking for fleas. Other than a Seaton or Captivator S2 system being about to dig a bit deeper with more authority, you aren't going get better. When I post about digging deeper, I'm posting about going well below hearing threshold and well above reference level and that's where I drew the esoteric red line and found, I didn't need more.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Here is where we differ. I place as much importance to the visual aspect as I do the audio side. I think my biggest gain would be with a larger screen and that's most likely my next upgrade. I have obtained the sound I'm looking for but I feel I'm still lacking the IMAX experience visually.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> Here is where we differ. I place as much importance to the visual aspect as I do the audio side. I think my biggest gain would be with a larger screen and that's most likely my next upgrade. I have obtained the sound I'm looking for but I feel I'm still lacking the IMAX experience visually.


But the thread is about the benefit of two subs and the forum is a subwoofer forum.

...:scratch:


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> But the thread is about the benefit of two subs and the forum is a subwoofer forum. ...:scratch:


Ok, you got me there. Being the OP I think I've steered the thread off course. Last post about screen size…I want bigger!


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

What ever you choose to do, I know you'll be happy with your choice.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Still enjoying the addition of the second sub. I would like to thank SVS for providing such quality products and amazing value. If you're looking for a sub I strongly encourage you to give SVS a look.


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