# Paraound 5250 or Rotel 1095?



## Tuddy

Dealer called and the B&W 804S's are in, picking up tomorrow
and I am torn between the Parasound New Classic 5250 and the 
Rotel 1095

I have read reviews on both, demoed the B&W's with the smaller
Rotel that was 120W 5 channel & it sounded great, so I can imagine
the 1095 will really make the speakers sing

Specs/Power are similiar and I can get a deal on the Parasound, the one
I really want, $2195 from Legacyaudiovideo.com (no shipping or taxes)

Or, would it be wise to buy an AMP that is manufactured by the same
parent company and sold with B&W speakers?

Appreciate any thoughts on the matter :help:


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## Sonnie

I would be highly surprised if you could tell a difference between those two units. If you can get a deal on the Parasound... I'd just buy it.

Maybe there are some others who have heard one or both.


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## thxgoon

You will be very happy with either one... but here's a vote for Parasound from a happy owner


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## Tuddy

thanks for the input, Sonnie.

Goon, nice set up, I envy the Halo!

Happy Holidays


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## MrPorterhouse

As has been already suggested, both of these amps will fit nicely with those B&W's. Its time to go bargin shopping for which Parasound's might be a little easier to find. Owners of both amps tend to be quite happy with their purchase.


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## mazersteven

How about the new Emotiva amp coming out?

http://www.emotiva.com/index.html

http://emotivalounge.proboards54.com/index.cgi?board=amps&action=display&thread=1192051012

Emotiva XPA-5 

5 x 200 $699 :rubeyes:










I have no experience with Emotiva. But if I was in the market for an amp I would certainly have to research this.


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## MrPorterhouse

Well, that is just a shockingly low price. Emotiva has a reputation of being of solid construction with good designs, but I have no personal experience with them. I am curious as to how that amp would sound.


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## mazersteven

MrPorterhouse said:


> I am curious as to how that amp would sound.


It should sound like an amp should sound. "No Sound".


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## conchyjoe7

Here's another vote from a long time ecstatic owner of Parasound. I would however look online at Audiogon for a HCA-2200 mkII...make ABSOLUTELY sure it's the mk II version and you'll have a long time serious amp for about a third of what you quoted for the 2250...a little less wattage (220 vs 250), but a LOT more ampage (45 vs 90 peak per channel):T If you can't find one, then the 2250 is also excellent (although it is NOT a John Curl design) by all acounts that I have read
Good luck,
Konky.


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## Warpdrv

mazersteven said:


> It should sound like an amp should sound. "No Sound".


Agreed.... 

Im not going to tell you what amp to get, but I have the Rotel 1095, bought it used, for $1200 and its awesome, hooked up to my Paradigm Studios. 

But I have pre-ordered the Emotiva, XPA-5, and will give it a chance.... Hooking it up to my new SVS MTS speakers. I figured that for them money saved its worth a try. If not it goes back, I know I can find any high price amp or go with another Rotel. 

Good luck... Nothing wrong with saving some money... leaves room for all the more stuff I can buy...


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## Bob_99

conchyjoe7 said:


> Here's another vote from a long time ecstatic owner of Parasound. I would however look online at Audiogon for a HCA-2200 mkII...make ABSOLUTELY sure it's the mk II version and you'll have a long time serious amp for about a third of what you quoted for the 2250...a little less wattage (220 vs 250), but a LOT more ampage (45 vs 90 peak per channel):T If you can't find one, then the 2250 is also excellent (although it is NOT a John Curl design) by all acounts that I have read
> Good luck,
> Konky.


If I may ask, at the risk of showing my ignorance, but shouldn't more amperage convert to more wattage unless you decrease the voltage. P=IV (P=power,I=current,V=voltage). 

Thanks.

Bob


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## conchyjoe7

The voltage is indeed reduced so higher current (amperage) can be used foir the wpc vs voltage. 

http://www.parasound.com/nc/2250.php

http://www.parasound.com/vintage/hca2200.php

http://www.bsharp.org/physics/stuff/xmission.html

Cheers,
Konky.


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## thxgoon

Bob_99 said:


> If I may ask, at the risk of showing my ignorance, but shouldn't more amperage convert to more wattage unless you decrease the voltage. P=IV (P=power,I=current,V=voltage).
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Bob


You are correct. Peak amperage specs like these can be dangerously misleading. In the Parasound's case peak current would happen at only a near short circuit. I hope I don't get in trouble for posting this link again, but please read this link.
Here's an excerpt I found particularly surprising.

Let's take a look at what 75 amps peak current means mathematically when it comes to power: The following numbers are derived from the good old formula for power which is the square of the current times the resistance. 
For 8 ohms that equals 45,000 peak watts. If we divide by 5 we get 9,000 peak watts per channel.
For 4 ohms that equals 22,500 peak watts. If we divide by 5 we get 4,500 peak watts per channel.
For 2 ohms that equals 11,250 peak watts. If we divide by 5 we get 2,250 peak watts per channel.
After looking at those numbers does anyone think their unit has the headroom in voltage to actually do that? 
Does anyone here possibly think that the voice coils of their speakers can actually handle that?
After looking at these numbers does anyone here think that this is at all applicable to home theater especially when the impedance of Home Theater speakers drop only to 4 ohms?
After looking at these numbers does anyone still think that instantaneous peak current spec is at all relevant?


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## Bob_99

conchyjoe7 said:


> The voltage is indeed reduced so higher current (amperage) can be used foir the wpc vs voltage.
> 
> http://www.parasound.com/nc/2250.php
> 
> http://www.parasound.com/vintage/hca2200.php
> 
> http://www.bsharp.org/physics/stuff/xmission.html
> 
> Cheers,
> Konky.


Konky,

Thank you for the explanation and the links. Once again I learned something new which is why I enjoy this forum.

thxgoon,

You bring up an interesting point and being neither an EE major or a physicist, I can't contribute any scientific pros or cons to the discussion. However, from what little that I think I know, that power is not being constantly provided to the drivers but is simply available should there be a need for it. I would also imagine that we are also talking in terms of milliseconds duration and once again, I stress that it would not be for the total full amount of power. Also, some drivers drop down to 2 ohms or less so I would imagine that their current requirement would be fairly high. Lastly, I read some of the link that you pointed to but it is somewhat long so I didn't read the whole thing. I'll try to read more of it to see if I'm missing something.

Thanks.

Bob


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## thxgoon

I don't want to take this thread too far off topic so I've written a pretty long explanation that I'll post in a few days elswhere and this can be discussed at length if need be. 

Sorry to the OP! Did you ever make the purchase?


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## Bob_99

thxgoon said:


> I don't want to take this thread too far off topic so I've written a pretty long explanation that I'll post in a few days elswhere and this can be discussed at length if need be.
> 
> Sorry to the OP! Did you ever make the purchase?


 After thinking about it, I'm beginning to understand what you're saying. Further discussion would be informative.

Ditto to the OP. I also am looking at Parasound which is what attracted me to the post. Let us know what you got and how you like it.

Thanks.

Bob


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## conchyjoe7

Bob: THX Goon is talking in all absolutes although one can't help but notice that he has a Parasound A52 that I am sure he heard a difference in before plunking down his hard earned cash as well as a Denon 5700 that many of us today still think of as Denon's best ever. It has been known to most audiophiles for many years that high current is more expensive to implement...it cannot be used with IC output stages (it burns them out), and requires better build in general as well as better parts. There is also the camp that says that high voltage gives one better control of their speakers drivers but at the expense of that solid state sterile sound. It's also been construed by many that high current sounds better and delivers a warmer, smoother (tube-like) sound to speakers, especially those that present a difficult load to an amp. My speakers (unlike THX goon's) go down to almost 2 ohms at times as do a lot of planars, ribbons and others, therefore null and voiding the stated: Home theatre speakers never go below 4 ohms. Ask Sonnie what his Martin Logans want and need to sound "right"...I seriously doubt he just blew a wad on all that Anthem equipment just so he could say so. In fact, some manufacturers have now gone to manufacturing amps that address both camps...case in point: Bob Carver's new line of Sunfire amps that have both voltage taps and high current taps...click the link:
http://www.sunfire.com/TGA7400.html As to whether or not Mr. Carver and many other well respected engineers are merely adding fluff with no substance to satisfy who knows who will remain a point of debate. It has been known for a some time that Carver believes in and indeed does voice his amps, and that is part of the reason you have such a huge camp on both sides of him...loving and not so loving! 

My point is that high current is not seen by most, myself included as something _needed_ to make anything run, but as something desired for better sound. Now, I cannot say that I can identify amps by name and model in a double blind test, but what I can say (I've done it) is that *with speakers capable of revealing the differences *(and that *IS* key), I can absolutely identify different amps consistently even with level matching, and furthermore _subjectively_ identify consistently which I perceive to sound better WITH MUSIC (not film soundtracks). I think most people, even those that profess they cannot; absolutely can given the opportunity to do so. Anyone (and yes there are many) that professes that a $299.00 AVR cannot be distinguished sonically from a $2,500.00 amp has never heard them with speakers that are capable of revealing the very real differences. The wide majority of mass produced and marketed speakers will not reveal the sonic differences, and you will get no argument from me on that point. In fact, you will get no argument from me on any point as those that cannot hear the difference should be happy as all they need comes in a nice little package called HTIB...and just think of all the cash they've saved...albeit at the expense of all the beautiful musical nuances and genuine "you are there" appreciation they've missed.

Cheers,
Konky.


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## MrPorterhouse

Very good post, conchyjoe7, lots of great points. Speakers can certainly vary in their ability to reveal inadequacies in electronics. Some fantastic sounding speakers can also mask the shortcomings of undercapable electronics, so long as you like the way they color the sound. I've got a lot of experience with Cerwin Vega, and they color the sound in that Boomy Vega way, and it really doesn't matter how you drive them.


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## groundie

i recently purchased Parasound 2250 and am happy with its build quality. and their 10-year warranty did stand out from others; 
of course, i hope i never have to use it.
Parasound is driving the woofers of my home-assembled speakers in bi-amp configuation and quite impressed with the sound compared to the old B&W DM640s.

i do have a question on amps in general:
should you be able to hear anything (even with your ear right at the driver) when there is no music playing?
i have read elsewhere that some amps are "dead silent."
i am hearing some hiss-crakcle if i put my ear next to the woofer;
of course, i cannot hear any of it sitting on the couch some 15' away.
any thoughts on this?


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## Bob_99

> i do have a question on amps in general:
> should you be able to hear anything (even with your ear right at the driver) when there is no music playing?
> i have read elsewhere that some amps are "dead silent."
> i am hearing some hiss-crakcle if i put my ear next to the woofer;
> of course, i cannot hear any of it sitting on the couch some 15' away.
> any thoughts on this?


You should not hear anything when your ear is up against the speaker. Well, maybe an extremely low fuzz (really low level). I recently ran into a low level hum in my speakers and was curious to know if it was a common thing so I put my ears up against a lot of other speakers for comparison. The other speakers were dead silent so I checked more into my setup and it turned out that my speaker cable was picking up AC from a nearby wire which wasn't even that close. After rearranging things, I eliminated the hum and now if I press my ear against the speaker I can barely, barely hear a low level fuzzy noise. I'm not sure if this helps you with hiss-crackling but it's all I have. Maybe someone else can offer more advice.

Bob


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## thxgoon

Ya there shouldn't be any audible noise other then a really really low hiss like Bob said. It could be a ground loop issue. Is your system hooked up to cable at some point? Try removing the cable connection from the system and see if it helps. If that removes the problem you can purchase a ground loop isolator for the cable jack. I think they're like $30 or something. Otherwise you'll have to look for the problem cable by cable. Try unplugging everything from the amp to isolate it. If it's still humming then the amp is to blame. If not plug things in one by one until it returns and chase it that way. It could be a bad or unshielded cable somewhere or some component that creates noise for some reason. Ground loops are crazy things. I used to get one when I turned on my projector of all things.... Good luck!


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## groundie

my Furman power strip connects directly to the wall outlet and
all equipment are plugged into the same strip. 
cable is not anywhere near.
i've tried moving the speaker wires away from the power lines
with no effect. my amps are connected to an active crossover which i can easily mute and power off and again, not much effect on the hiss.

what i'm hearing is not a hum, it's more like windy hiss and
i can hear it if i put my ear in direct axis within 10 or so inches from the driver. also, hissing is greater on one channel than the other.
i certainly do not hear this hiss from the couch 10-15' away.
am i just having a hissing fit or should i investigate further?


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## thxgoon

If you can't hear it at the couch then I wouldn't worry much about it. It's likely just noise being generated by a component somewhere in your chain. The only way to find out exactly where it's coming from is to disconnect everything then starting with the amp start to re-connect until the noise returns. It's doesn't sound like a ground loop but your power strip doesn't necessarily rule this out.


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## reed.hannebaum

As an extremely happy Parasound owner I can highly recommend this manufacturer. I once thought that good amplifiers would be indistinguishable; but with good speakers you CAN tell the difference. 

I don't have any direct experience with Rotel, but they are a well respected name in amplifiers. I am sure you would be happy with either choise.


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