# A Two-Channel "Balance Skewing" Issue...



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

In my two-channel rig (separate from my 5.1-channel setup), I am running an Onkyo TX-8555 stereo receiver which is powering a pair of Infinity Primus 363 tower speakers. Even with my balance knob on the receiver set to its detent center position, there is a heavy "leaning" or bias towards the left speaker; I am absolutely sure the cables are not the issue (I'm using good quality interconnects from an internet-only brand, the name of which escapes me at the moment...along the lines of Blue Jeans Cables... between the sources such as my Marantz CC4001 CD changer, TASCAM CD recorder and Numark CD mixing unit), nor are the speaker cables (Monster navajo whites) -- also curious is the fact that the previous speakers I had in this system, a pair of Polk R20 bookshelves, also exhibited this "bias-to-the-left" behavior, leading me to believe it's something inside the receiver...

Could this be my room arrangement...or does it sound more like a blown amp channel problem (which I PRAY it isn't because I really like this stereo receiver)? If I move the receiver's balance control towards the right side, it seems like it slightly balances the sound -- but I need to REALLY jack it over pretty far to that side to get some kind of reaction, which seems really odd to me...

The reason why I bring up my room arrangement is because this system is set up in an upstairs loft area, and because of room layout, my rack is in a corner opposite my recliner which is the primary listening seat...the Primus speakers flank the Bell'O rack, but they too are toed inward towards the listening chair, with the left speaker close to a wall and the right not so close to a wall...I have read that this kind of arrangement can lead to a perceived "skewing" of balance in a system, but my problem sounds pretty extreme, quite frankly, to be caused by this...

What could be causing this "bias-to-the-left-speaker" issue even when my receiver's balance knob is centered? Is it common for two-channel setups to "favor" one channel in terms of balance, as some of my old stereo setups used to? Outside of using the balance knob to steer the audio more towards the right to get more of a balanced, focused image, is there anything else that can be suggested?

Thank you for any assistance, in advance...


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## Wardsweb (Apr 2, 2010)

2-channel should give you a center image sound (sweet spot). Moving left or right should shift the sound to that side. A quick way to start trouble shooting is to switch your left and right speaker wires. Does the sound still lean left? Put the wires back and switch your input source left and right cables. Does the sound still lean left? If at any point the sound leans right, you have an issue. At which point it changes will point to the bad component.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Wardsweb said:


> 2-channel should give you a center image sound (sweet spot).


Indeed; what I am experiencing now is a decidingly left-oriented bias. Now, this could be because my speakers are too close together (flanking the audio rack and constrained by unfortunate room layout) or that perhaps the speaker that tends to be "louder" is near a wall while the other one isn't...

This system is, unfortunately, a corner-loaded setup, with the speakers and rack stuffed in a corner, firing towards my listening chair which is in the opposite corner of the open end of an upstairs loft, if you can visualize that...



> Moving left or right should shift the sound to that side.


I think this is more a component problem the more I read your suggestions, because even when I try to canter off to one side, the audio still remains biased to the left...



> A quick way to start trouble shooting is to switch your left and right speaker wires. Does the sound still lean left? Put the wires back and switch your input source left and right cables. Does the sound still lean left? If at any point the sound leans right, you have an issue. At which point it changes will point to the bad component.


As I said, though, the previous set of speakers I had in this system -- driven by the same receiver -- behaved the same way...that is, the left speaker appeared louder than the right...this really is beginning to sound like a blown amp channel inside the Onkyo, and that is really too bad because I love this stereo receiver. It was bought brand new, on sale from Amazon, and was NEVER abused in any way; we play the volume at reasonable levels, always, and I have taken cosmetic care of it from day one. 

Why would it be, though, that at the CENTER DETENT position on the balance knob the audio would skew more to one side? Should I try running the receiver in PURE or DIRECT mode, bypassing the tone and balance controls?


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## Wardsweb (Apr 2, 2010)

Try the pure or direct. Does it still lean to the left channel? A weak channel is usually more an effect of a dirty volume or balance control. Sometimes a dirty speaker protection relay. So it isn't that the left is louder, it is the right side is weaker.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Wardsweb said:


> Try the pure or direct. Does it still lean to the left channel?


I will try that and get back to you with results...



> A weak channel is usually more an effect of a dirty volume or balance control. Sometimes a dirty speaker protection relay.


But I normally clean this receiver real good with Windex Electronics Wipes -- specifically made for wiping down electronics like this -- every time I clean our house, which is quite often; I even gave the top grate/venting top plate of the receiver a good blast of compressed air a couple of days ago when I did a house cleaning to blow away any dust that may have been in there (the unit sits on an open Bell'O audio tower/rack so it's not enclosed)...should I try blowing air around the volume knob or balance knob? 



> So it isn't that the left is louder, it is the right side is weaker.


Ummmm...that's a good question....I don't know; all I know is that when the balance knob of the receiver is in its CENTER DETENT position (with the unit in STEREO mode), the LEFT speaker appears louder and more "dominant"....in order to get the RIGHT speaker to "come alive" in any way, I really need to crank the balance over to that side a GREAT DEAL, almost all the way, which doesn't make sense to me...:coocoo: :scratch:


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

A few thoughts:

If you have not already, try the previous suggestion of swapping left and right speaker connections, just to see what it tells you. When troubleshooting, go for low-hanging-fruit tests first (quick, easy, informative), whether they seem logical or not, you can learn a lot really fast that way.

The center detent on an analog balance control may or may not be electronically centered. It could be the cause of imbalance which might stand out in some setups and be almost unnoticeable in others.

Electronic connections can degrade and cause signal loss. A slightly corroded RCA connection could cause imbalance. Do not assume that paying more for cables makes this impossible - it helps if connectors are gold plated. It is a fairly common problem with RCAs and 1/4in connectors. Turn off all equipment, unplug and replug connections, then retest, see if the problem goes away. If you are a little braver, CAREFULLY and GENTLY jiggle/twist (do not unplug them, just a little jiggle or twist) interconnect connectors (NOT speaker connections) while playing music at a medium level, if you find a faulty connection the level will jump back up, probably when you grasp the connector, it usually doesn't much to break through the corrosion.



> should I try blowing air around the volume knob or balance knob?


Doubtful it would make any difference for a balance control. If there was dust or dirt in it, you would get horrendous noise & crackling as you moved it.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

AudiocRaver said:


> A few thoughts:
> 
> If you have not already, try the previous suggestion of swapping left and right speaker connections, just to see what it tells you. When troubleshooting, go for low-hanging-fruit tests first (quick, easy, informative), whether they seem logical or not, you can learn a lot really fast that way.


Thank you, Raver, for your input here...

I will try to consider this suggestion above, but the thing that always stops me is the way in which this system is installed -- it's in a tight corner, with components sitting on an L-shaped Bell'O glass-shelved rack which makes it nearly impossible to get behind and check connections/change cables etc. This has always been a serious achilles heel for me with this setup, making any additions to the system nearly impossible to deal with, made even moreso by the "cable channeling" system Bell'O implements on this rack/stand -- the wires are concealed by channeling them down "tunnels" cut out on the left side of the stand in back, and to fish thick cables through these things takes BEYOND patience...:R

But, here's something else to consider: Isn't there something to be said about the fact that the last pair of speakers I had hooked up to this Onkyo, the RIGHT side did the SAME thing? Wouldn't this indicate something with an internal amp issue within the receiver? :scratch:



> The center detent on an analog balance control may or may not be electronically centered. It could be the cause of imbalance which might stand out in some setups and be almost unnoticeable in others.


This is interesting, and what I kind of wanted to know all along; I can recall in setups in the past where even when my balance knob was centered on the stereo receiver or integrated amp, there was always some slight bias to one side...no matter the music, the source, etc...then, there is the possibility that the MUSIC SOURCE (CD, vinyl, tuner) is the culprit, no, when perhaps the music wasn't mixed dead-on-center? 

Regardless, do you suggest I try running the system, as recommended by the other member, in PURE or DIRECT mode first as a test, so the receiver bypasses the balance and tone controls? This may indicate if it's something in the balance knob itself if the sound indeed changes...

If the center detent is not "electronically centered" as you put it on my Onkyo receiver, is it okay, then, to "compensate" by moving the knob heavily over to the "weaker" channel? 



> Electronic connections can degrade and cause signal loss. A slightly corroded RCA connection could cause imbalance. Do not assume that paying more for cables makes this impossible - it helps if connectors are gold plated.


Indeed; my RCA connections are pretty much brand new, from Monoprice, and are thick, good-quality, gold-plated pairs connecting all my gear to this receiver -- the Marantz CD changer, the Numark CD mixer, the TASCAM CD recorder, etc...I am positively sure they're in the connection jacks nice and tight...



> It is a fairly common problem with RCAs and 1/4in connectors. Turn off all equipment, unplug and replug connections, then retest, see if the problem goes away. If you are a little braver, CAREFULLY and GENTLY jiggle/twist (do not unplug them, just a little jiggle or twist) interconnect connectors (NOT speaker connections) while playing music at a medium level, if you find a faulty connection the level will jump back up, probably when you grasp the connector, it usually doesn't much to break through the corrosion.


Now THIS I would have to consider as a last resort...LOL...I think I would be more comfortable trying the PURE or DIRECT mode test first, then perhaps jiggling the RCA connections as you suggested if nothing seems to work...it could very well be I have a loose/degraded connection somewhere, even though I don't think so, but here's the question: If, say, my CD changer's RCA connections weren't solid or tight, then why would EVERY source connected to this receiver behave the same way with the left side bias? When I listen to the tuner each night, for example, the sound is skewed to the left as well...:scratch: :huh: :sneeky: :blink: :rolleyesno:



> Doubtful it would make any difference for a balance control. If there was dust or dirt in it, you would get horrendous noise & crackling as you moved it.


Indeed, probably true; just thought I'd throw it out there...


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Sounds like you have "dressed" your setup nicely, with the connectors hard to get at, I understand. I should spend more time on aesthetics/cable protection - mine are always easy to get to but always pretty ugly, too. If the cables are new, gold plated, and recently assembled, it is doubtful that a corrosion problem is to blame.

Doubtful that "blown electronics" would cause just a gain shift, almost always either total failure or massive distortion or something pretty hard to miss.



> If, say, my CD changer's RCA connections weren't solid or tight, then why would EVERY source connected to this receiver behave the same way with the left side bias?


You are correct, and with that additional info (or maybe I missed it before), it certainly sounds like the problem is in the receiver.

You don't run across very many mixes that are not well centered, but it is possible.

Certainly, any test as easy as switching the AVR mode could be informative, and easy is good when troubleshooting. Is mono mode a possibility? Then the exact same signal should be going to both speakers. If you could somehow do a mono signal, it would be interesting to know how far off balance the signal is. As on a scale like this:

Left Speaker.................................................................Right Speaker
___100%L - 75%L - 50%L - 25%L - C - 25%R - 50%R - 75%R - 100%R___

With mono, you can '"point to" the image point of the signal and give us a percentage left. Knowing that, one can calculate the relative loss.

One more possibility, not a nice one to consider: There are sometimes internal connections that can corrode and cause loss problems. Some vintages of AVRs even have coax with RCA connectors going between internal boards. Or - even worse - a faulty solder joint that is partly opened, causing loss. I had an older JVC amp years ago that had lousy solder joints on one little equalizer board, and certain bands of the EQ board would stop working, had to open it like clockwork once a year and find a bad joint or two, resolder them, and next year it would be a different one or two. A problem like that may be beyond the patience of even a repair tech.

Bottom line: If it is just a badly made balance control, shifting the balance control does not "upset" anything else about the sound, equalization, timing, or anything else, it only affects relative level, so shifting to the Right to compensate should give good-sounding results. It should be stable, though, and if over time you find you have to keep nudging the control, then there is definitely something else to blame for the imbalance.

Frustrating, I know. Let us know what you find.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Well, Raver, I just played around with the DIRECT mode on my Onkyo 8555, and to my ear, it did not sound any different than running the receiver's amp in plain STEREO mode, with bass, treble and balance centered. I put in a well-mastered disc, Gwen Stefani's _The Sweet Escape_, into the Marantz CD changer, and cranked the receiver's volume up to about "37" on the absolute volume scale; in DIRECT and STEREO, it sounded the same, pretty much, with the same separation characteristics...though, my ears could be fooling me...

At this point, I am going to run the system in STEREO mode, continuing to leave bass, treble and balance in the center positions -- but let me address some of the things you mentioned in your gracious last post...



AudiocRaver said:


> Sounds like you have "dressed" your setup nicely, with the connectors hard to get at, I understand. I should spend more time on aesthetics/cable protection - mine are always easy to get to but always pretty ugly, too. If the cables are new, gold plated, and recently assembled, it is doubtful that a corrosion problem is to blame.


Indeed; they are, as I said, pretty much brand-new and in their respective jacks nice and snug...

And, yeah, I kinda have a pet peeve with regard to "messy" and "sloppy" setups; I don't even want to ever see any wiring! This Bell'O rack is just a complete pain in the you-know-what, though; while open and airy, with glass shelves for the components to stack on so plenty of ventilation gets to them, my gear is CONSTANTLY getting thick layers of dust on them, and the wire management system has made me NEVER want to buy one of these again, let me tell you...

And while your system with regards to cable management may not be, in a manner of speaking, overtly neat and tidy, you sure are right that they're MUCH easier to get to that way and makes for MUCH, much easier adjustments/checks/additions/tweaks...



> Doubtful that "blown electronics" would cause just a gain shift, almost always either total failure or massive distortion or something pretty hard to miss.


But what I meant was, wouldn't a "blown amp channel" -- or one that's "on its way out" -- cause one speaker to sound louder than the other...or am I totally off base here? 



> You are correct, and with that additional info (or maybe I missed it before), it certainly sounds like the problem is in the receiver.


I just don't know what it is, though; if it's not an amp channel going bad, or some kind of rare defect, what could be causing this "shift to the left" bias? Here is what someone else on the AVS forum shared with me regarding this phenomenon; he clearly believes my problem lies with the "corner loaded" setup and my room...please tell me what you think of this analysis:

_*Using balance is a quick fix and not a bad one in my opinion. As you get pickier about 2-channel, you will will want to solve the issue without aggressive balance control. What is happening is the sound is bouncing off your right wall back at you, whereas the sound on your left is escaping into the space and not coming back at you. 

You can looking into room correction devices. Behringer deq2496 is a dac/eq/room correction device. Harman Kardon as well as other AVR companies offer room correction in their machines. 

However, it is all about if it sound good to you. If you use the balance and you are fine, then be happy. If using the balance still is problematic because the center image is lean on one side and you are not content, then room correction or moving your system might be the next step.*_



> You don't run across very many mixes that are not well centered, but it is possible.


But then I can't explain even the tuner, tuned into our favorite local jazz station on a public radio frequency, and its tendency to be biased towards the left...:doh:



> Certainly, any test as easy as switching the AVR mode could be informative, and easy is good when troubleshooting. Is mono mode a possibility? Then the exact same signal should be going to both speakers. If you could somehow do a mono signal, it would be interesting to know how far off balance the signal is. As on a scale like this:
> 
> Left Speaker.................................................................Right Speaker
> ___100%L - 75%L - 50%L - 25%L - C - 25%R - 50%R - 75%R - 100%R___
> ...


No mono mode available; this is a stereo-only Onkyo receiver, designed for analog two-channel use:

http://legacy.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?class=Receiver&m=TX-8555



> One more possibility, not a nice one to consider: There are sometimes internal connections that can corrode and cause loss problems. Some vintages of AVRs even have coax with RCA connectors going between internal boards. Or - even worse - a faulty solder joint that is partly opened, causing loss. I had an older JVC amp years ago that had lousy solder joints on one little equalizer board, and certain bands of the EQ board would stop working, had to open it like clockwork once a year and find a bad joint or two, resolder them, and next year it would be a different one or two. A problem like that may be beyond the patience of even a repair tech.


Good to know; but this receiver is about two years old, if that; Onkyo discontinued the model since then, in favor of receivers that include the new "streaming" capabilities and such for connections to computers, but I am totally uninterested in that, as I like to sit in front of my rack and speakers and really LISTEN to music crucially. The TX-8555, which I own, was the last of Onkyo's "muscle stereo receivers," boasting 100 watts per channel and a nice, solid, heavy build character with a thick aluminum faceplate and solid knobs that just screamed "I mean business!"...it also had, in particular, a nice, heavy volume knob that responded in slow movements like analog knobs of the past...it really is a nice unit...it reminds me very much of a good, solid, high quality integrated amp, only with the tuner, of course...

But, in getting back to your assesment, I don't think it's likely -- unless there was some freak defect from the factory --that because of the vintage of this receiver the problem is in some "corroded circuit" somewhere; do you agree now? 



> Bottom line: If it is just a badly made balance control, shifting the balance control does not "upset" anything else about the sound, equalization, timing, or anything else, it only affects relative level, so shifting to the Right to compensate should give good-sounding results. It should be stable, though, and if over time you find you have to keep nudging the control, then there is definitely something else to blame for the imbalance.
> 
> Frustrating, I know. Let us know what you find.


If I experiment with the balance knob again, shifting it to the right, I will let you know if it indeed starts to "fade" even further over time; but does it make sense to you that I would need to so drastically move the balance knob over to the right channel to get it to "wake up"? :scratch:


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

One more thought, 2 parts to it, trying not to run this into the ground...

Does your AVR have front aux input jacks? If so, you could get a mono source by using a laptop or portable player, smartphone, tablet, some kind of source, play back a mono recording into both channels, or play one side of a stereo signal through a splitter adapter/cable so it goes into both channels.

With that mono signal running, move up close to the speakers, just a few feet out from the plane of the fronts of them, close enough that the side wall is not a factor, and see how far off balance it is.

Doing this you remove these variables: 1) the difficulty of knowing exactly where the signal's center is supposed to be - with mono it is obvious and easy to locate, and 2) any side wall influence.

If it sounds center-balanced up close to the speakers, and then becomes more and more off-center as you move back to the listener position, you know it is primarily an acoustics/room problem. If it sounds off-center up close to the speakers - and you should be able to measure it down to the inch with this technique (all tone/eq set flat) - then you know it is electronic; if so, determine the "%Left" number the best you can.

Blown channel idea: In low-feedback amplifiers, like tube amps, a device (tube) going bad could cause gain loss. But in solid state amps designed with lots of feedback, a device failure is almost always catastrophic, going from OK to bad instantly and sending the channel straight into some kind of protection mode with no signal output whatsoever. The idea of a partial failure resulting in gain reduction in your amp - and with no other effects like massive distortion or oscillation or something unavoidably noticeable - would be an "I gotta see it to believe it" event. Not impossible, but extremely unlikely.



> but does it make sense to you that I would need to so drastically move the balance knob over to the right channel to get it to "wake up"?


No. It is perplexing.



> But, in getting back to your assesment, I don't think it's likely -- unless there was some freak defect from the factory --that because of the vintage of this receiver the problem is in some "corroded circuit" somewhere; do you agree now?


I completely agree.

Edit: I see following your link that you have no front panel inputs. I will get a mono pink noise track uploaded somewhere so you can burn it to CD and run it from your CD player. Some time tomorrow (Sunday).


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Does the FM tuner allow for mono playback? It appears from looking at the specs that it does.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

tesseract said:


> Does the FM tuner allow for mono playback? It appears from looking at the specs that it does.


Thanks for catching that, tesseract, that would work perfectly. Try that first, and if for some reason it does not do the trick, I can still post something for download.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

AM would work as well. Male voice from talk radio should give a solid, central image to work with.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

How would I test the tuner in "mono" mode...do you mean turn the input to TUNER, then take off the stereo signal/mode?


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Pick a station, change the tuner to mono mode (not looking at the manual, so not sure how to do that), leave the receiver in regular stereo mode. Now you are playing a mono signal through the speakers. Or pick a mono AM station, like tesseract suggested.

Next, try the suggestions back in post #10, the three paragraphs starting with:

"With that mono signal running..."

Let us know what you find.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Shoot...

Let me see what I can do...:scratch:


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

I did not word my last post very well.

Tune your TUNER to an FM station with a good signal and put it into MONO mode. Or, pick an AM talk radio station, which would be mono or at least the announcer's voice would be a well-centered mono signal.

Leave the AMPLIFIER in regular stereo mode so the balance control is active, but leave it in the center detent position.

Try the tests mentioned in Post 10. A MONO signal like this should be clearly localized, you should be able to point right at the spot in space between the speakers where it appears to be coming from. Standing close to the speakers, almost between them, you can move to the left or right until you find the spot where the sound appears/sounds perfectly balanced. From that spot, how far is it to the left speaker? How far to the right speaker? Measure as precisely as you can and tell us those numbers. Is that spot exactly halfway between the speakers? Then your amplifier is ok, it is an acoustics problem. Is that spot offset to the left? Then the problem is somewhere in the amplifier.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

I'll do that test as soon as I can; thanks...


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