# Sub & Receiver help for large room



## 4020power (Jul 24, 2011)

Hello all, I am in the early planning stages of a home theater/game room that is rather large. We will probably use the room 80% of the time viewing movies. The room will be a bonus room located on the 2nd floor. The room will be 28' x 32' with a 4' pony wall that extends up to a 8' ceiling. As of right now I have no equipment to fill this room with and would like to start by finding a good sub and 7.1 receiver that would work in this room. I would like to keep the price around $1800 if possible. If you have any suggestions, I would love to hear them. Thanks


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## 4020power (Jul 24, 2011)

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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The Onkyo TX-NR3008 is currently available from Newegg for $1149. (2100 MSRP) Note, the price usually goes up during the Week and is cheaper on the Weekend. Awesome value, THX Ultra2 Plus, Audyssey MultEQ XT32, 8 HDMI 1.4 Inputs, and much more.

For a Subwoofer, I would consider either the HSU Research VTF-2 MKIII or the SVS PB-12NSD. Since using a large Room, eventually purchasing 2 of either of these would be ideal. Also, the Onkyo includes Audyssey Sub EQ and has Dual Subwoofer Inputs and Dual Audyssey Subwoofer Calibration.
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

> Hello all, I am in the early planning stages of a home theater/game room that is rather large. We will probably use the room 80% of the time viewing movies. The room will be a bonus room located on the 2nd floor. The room will be 28' x 32' with a 4' pony wall that extends up to a 8' ceiling. As of right now I have no equipment to fill this room with and would like to start by finding a good sub and 7.1 receiver that would work in this room. I would like to keep the price around $1800 if possible. If you have any suggestions, I would love to hear them. Thanks


I wouldn't spend a world on a single receiver. I think a better path would be get just a decent $400-500 refurb $800-$1000 MSRP receiver with good preout jacks IE Marantz SR5004 and eventually pair it with an Emotiva XPA-3 type high power amp. Too much cost cutting in receiver amps. I do like the idea of Audyssey SubEQ for its ability to manage bass if possible though. But I don't consider it a deal maker if your speakers are have decent.

For subs, I would be looking at two or three, and big ones at that. In such a room I think a large vented sub like a JTR Captivator, HSU VTF-15 or Rythmik FV15 would be the way to go. 

The thing about dual or triple subs is that they load the room differently. Single Subs are a problem plain and simple because rooms are a problem. If you want clean response you need to load the room from different locations.


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## 4020power (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks guys. I might be better off if I went ahead and sectioned off the theater area, this would allow me to really focus on making a true dedicated HT room and still have my bar area in the other room. I'll try and get some pictures posted.


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## 4020power (Jul 24, 2011)

This is what I previously had in mind, but I think I will throw a wall up between the two areas.








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## 4020power (Jul 24, 2011)

I have been looking at the SVS PB13 or PC 13 sub. They seem like a really well built sub. Would one of these work in my HT room? If I go ahead and make two seperate rooms my HT room would be roughly 18' x 25' and a 8' ceiling. I do have a question about these two subs. Other than shape, what is the difference in a box sub or a cylinder type sub? Which one is best suited for a dedicated HT room? I do realize these are more expensive but if this is the one I choose, I'll just keep saving for a few more weeks. Thanks guys.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

4020power said:


> I have been looking at the SVS PB13 or PC 13 sub. They seem like a really well built sub. Would one of these work in my HT room? If I go ahead and make two seperate rooms my HT room would be roughly 18' x 25' and a 8' ceiling. I do have a question about these two subs. Other than shape, what is the difference in a box sub or a cylinder type sub? Which one is best suited for a dedicated HT room? I do realize these are more expensive but if this is the one I choose, I'll just keep saving for a few more weeks. Thanks guys.


Hello,
Here is a great explanation from SVS who obviously makes both types. 
"What's best for me? Cylinder or Box SVS subwoofer?

Like so many things in life... it depends. Some folks like the cutting-edge, unique and understated elegance of our space-saving cylinder subwoofers, others value the more traditional but likewise slick simplicity of our box designs. In fact, aesthetics ... how you want your sub to look ... is probably the most significant consideration in your decision here. Still, there are some other "pro's and con's" to consider, and even the question of "looks" isn't as straightforward as it might seem at first. How you weigh these issues is clearly a personal call: 

In short, cylinders tend to cost less, are noticeably taller, but at the same time lighter and easier to move. They take up far less precious floor space too. Boxes tend to have considerably more "heft" (requiring more "grunt" to place them; most require two people to move very far), have nice flat tops you can put things on, yet cost a bit more than the closest performing cylinder equivalent. Want further discussion on this eternal question??? Read on.

Cylinder Subwoofers:

The original SVS subwoofer designs were all cylinder-based for some very good reasons. First and foremost it's a very efficient audio enclosure from a number of perspectives. The internal pressures of a subwoofer of this class can be intense! Ever wonder why cylinders are used to contain compressed gasses? They can't stretch easily, and tend to resist forms of wall distortion that boxes must combat. In short, a box wall must be many times thicker and heavier to equal the strength of a simple cylinder. This affects several things in turn...


Weight: For a equal level of performance and enclosure space (the key to getting deep and powerfully clean bass) a cylinder will be lighter, and that means easier to move around your room, or from house to house as you go through life. One example. Our PB12-NSD weighs in around 75 pounds. The smallest powered cylinder, the 20-39 PCi is virtually a sonic clone in performance, but weighs nearly 20 pounds less. Now, 20 pounds might not sound like much, until you haul one up to the top floor of a dorm room, or nudge one into a tight spot in a basement. Most our cylinders you can sling on your shoulder, most our box subs are decidedly "two-person lift" entities. Of course we know that for some customers weight is good, it connotes quality and value. If you fall into this camp, then the relative light weight of a PCi isn't an advantage. In practical terms most folks will find 55 pounds quite enough!

Floor space: Because our cylinders go "up, not out" they can contain prodigious amounts of internal volume that would make for a huge box "foot-print". While a round cylinder base-plate can't snug into the very corner of a room like a box can, our cylinder subs still tend to take up less floor space than a box equivalent.
Finish/looks: All our cylinder subs are finished in a tough knit velvet-like black fabric we sourced from a high-end architectural supply company. Its light scattering properties means even our tallest cylinder subs practically disappear in a dark room corner. We've had reports of spouses that didn't even notice a surreptitious SVS upgrade until it was pointed out to them. As a result of the understate design we’ve sold countless thousands of them and most folks love their look. Some don't. They prefer the harder, more conventional edges of a box and fine textured finish or wood veneers. While our entry level box finishes are a similar shade of black, the fact they are not fabric covered enclosures is a plus, and we're not one's to argue. We developed high-performance SVS box subs precisely because folks asked for a more traditional design as an option.


Cost: Because the cylinder design is so efficient and relatively simple to manufacture, an equivalent box subwoofer will tend to cost more. Not much, but for some folks every audio budget dollar counts. A PB12-Plus and similarly performing 20-39PC+ favor the PC+ by $50. Now, you might light Cuban cigars with $50 bills, but if per chance you don't, at least you understand that a box design can cost a bit more up front. Shipping naturally adds costs too, and depending on where you live you can expect a Powered Box to cost roughly $25-50 or so more to ship given their greater weight. Our shipping rates are still amazingly low no matter how price sensitive you are, but if you are especially cost sensitive, the Powered Cylinders have a slight edge that might matter.

Box Subwoofers:

So cylinders have it "all over" boxes, right? Not exactly. Even though we engineer audio solutions for demanding buyers, there is nothing quite perfect (to our way of thinking). Cylinders have their advantages, and so too do their box brethren.


Size: While their designs are similar in nature (using common woofers, amps, ports etc) SVS box subs tend to strike some folks as less visually obtrusive. All while taking up more floor space. Why?? Box subs tend to be able to tuck tightly into a corner (you still need a few inches for the rear firing ports to breathe) and are naturally much shorter to boot. A PB12-NSD is a robust 21" tall (shedding its first generation basepate), while even our shortest cylinder sub is a little over 35" tall. This mid-sized Powered Box is a whopping 25" deep however, while the "Powered Cylinders" a mere 16" in diameter, and thus can fit into the tightest floor-space any theater or media room might present. But our great finishes make a box work like an end table, perfect drink height near a couch. Use a coaster so your Martini is shaken, not stirred.

Performance: If enclosure volume is about the same, there are no significant disadvantages, in terms of raw performance, due to a box shape versus a cylinder. But (there has to be a "but" right??)... boxes do lend themselves to multi-driver configurations that are simply not practical in a cylinder design. The PB12-NSD has single woofer so as you might expect, it's virtually identical to a 20Hz tuned version of our 20-39PCi subwoofer (especially since it shares all the same parts as the PCi subs). If you are with us so far then, you already know that when we released a PB12-Plus/2 a few years back (Powered Box, with two 12" "Plus" woofers and three way porting) you could expect it to perform nearly like two of our top-selling and industry-unique 20-39PC-Plus subs. Boxes can be made bigger and more powerful than a cylinder for those wanting the pinnacle of performance in a single sub.

Cost: Any single woofer box sub from SVS we'll offer will tend to cost about 10% more than its closest performing cylinder equivalent due to more costly enclosure construction, including the offering of premium wood or gloss finishes. Yet, considering even the lowest cost SVS box subs, like the PB10-NSD already outperforms most subs costing from $200 to $1,500 more than ours, we don't think boxes levey much of a premium. In the case of that entry level Powered Box sub, we are actually under the least expensive Powered Cylinder, the amazing 25-31PCi.

Finish: Again, some folks like boxes, others hate them due to their relative commonality in the speaker world. Regardless of how you feel about that, the tough cured-poly finish of the textured black, the beautiful woods or the elegant piano gloss box subs are all stunningly attractive and still durable enough to live in the real world. Textured black is probably the most forgiving of tough rooms, where kids and pets might rule the day. Even the sexy gloss black has been specifically developed to avoid the fragility of lesser versions of this finish. Customers who actually own top brand pianos have commented that their SVS is actually better in the level of depth and quality we offer. The woods are unmatched on our powered boxes. You would have to look long and hard to find any premium quality furniture with workmanship so meticulous or materials this fine. 

Practicality: There is not much more practical than a simple box (as long as you have plenty of floor space). You can put it in a corner, put a plant on it, put a lamp on it, put Granny's picture on it (as long as you understand Granny might be moving around a bit during the pod-race scene in Star Wars: The Phantom Menace). A sub like our PB12-NSD will be impervious to your kids' peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, it'll be immune to the most vicious house cat (though to be fair, we've not had one owner report any defeating our tough cylinder subwoofer fabric either). Plants, your best friend's bottle of beer, and that 50 lb. bust of Beethoven are all very bad things to put on top of our cylinder subs by comparison. Their tops must be un-obstructed as their top-firing ports are protected by a relatively light-weight mesh grill. If this matters to you, the box SVS's gain another point in their favor."
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

4020power said:


> I have been looking at the SVS PB13 or PC 13 sub. They seem like a really well built sub. Would one of these work in my HT room? If I go ahead and make two seperate rooms my HT room would be roughly 18' x 25' and a 8' ceiling. I do have a question about these two subs. Other than shape, what is the difference in a box sub or a cylinder type sub? Which one is best suited for a dedicated HT room? I do realize these are more expensive but if this is the one I choose, I'll just keep saving for a few more weeks. Thanks guys.


The PB/PC13s are great sub choices - HOWEVER - I feel I should reiterate that two lesser subs will give better sound quality than a single ultra-expensive sub.


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## 4020power (Jul 24, 2011)

Sorry about the picture quality...

GranteedEV, do you still think I need two subs if I section off the HT room from the other areas? 










I am not for sure if I should try and incorporate the dormers into the home theater room? If I do, it would give me some more room but then I would have the windows to mess with.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

4020power said:


> GranteedEV, do you still think I need two subs if I section off the HT room from the other areas? [/IMG]
> 
> I am not for sure if I should try and incorporate the dormers into the home theater room? If I do, it would give me some more room but then I would have the windows to mess with.


Multiple subs is --NOT-- about output - that's only a side effect.

Think of it like this. One subwoofer outputs bass in every direction equally, for the most part. Now the large bass wavelengths don't have a chance to form inside of rooms. they reflect off of walls. think of a sine wave - it has crests and troughs. Because of walls, sometimes the crests combine when they shouldn't, and sometimes the troughs combine. this is problematic. When you have one subwoofer loading the room from one location, you're going to have many the large bass wavelengths cancel and combine with no consistency from seat to seat. You can equalize the peaks down, but only at one seating position no matter what they tell you. You can't equalize the troughs up, because they will continue to cancel each other. one sub flat out can not sound good at multiple seating positions, unless you're in a listening area that is something like 90 feet tall, 90 feet wide, 90 feet long... which is silly.

With two subs, you get modal averaging and improved frequency response across multiple seats. The frequency response is flattened out. It's measurable, and it's very much audible. the second sub loads the room from a different location and thus the rooms impact on its sound waves is very different - hopefully the opposite of the other sub. It will fill in the valleys, and hopefully smooth out the peaks. With less valleys and peaks, EQ becomes easier too.

A third sub can get you near perfection in terms of sound quality, even if it's a small, underpowered one, if you locate it near a ceiling instead of ground.

Bass traps will help with lower midrange / upper bass, as well. Corners are especially problematic, and most rectangular rooms will have at least 12 corners that create these problems. Corner bass traps are the key to bass sound quality.

Sectioning off the HT room might give you more bottom end room gain (near 20-25hz) but it won't manage room nodes.

The difference between most subwoofers out there, most of the time, is only output and extension. If you want bass that sounds good, with consistent impact across multiple seats and no missing frequencies or overemphasis, then you need two or three subwoofers, even if they are lesser subs. That they will combine for more output doesn't hurt either.

Like I said, two or three rythmik FV12s or SVS PB12NSDs - located SEPARATELY from each other in - loading the room randomly, will really outperform a single PB13U in-room. 

Here is an article that examines the concept:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/two-subs

Now 2,3, or 4 PB13U, on the other hand, will be better - BUT this is very expensive. You need to make a "subwoofer budget" and purchase at least two subs within that budget rather than blowing it all on a single, "big time" sub. Are you willing to spend 3k+ on a pair of PB13s?


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## dkeller (Jul 5, 2011)

GranteedEV said:


> Multiple subs is --NOT-- about output - that's only a side effect.
> 
> Think of it like this. One subwoofer outputs bass in every direction equally, for the most part. Now the large bass wavelengths don't have a chance to form inside of rooms. they reflect off of walls. think of a sine wave - it has crests and troughs. Because of walls, sometimes the crests combine when they shouldn't, and sometimes the troughs combine. this is problematic. When you have one subwoofer loading the room from one location, you're going to have many the large bass wavelengths cancel and combine with no consistency from seat to seat. You can equalize the peaks down, but only at one seating position no matter what they tell you. You can't equalize the troughs up, because they will continue to cancel each other. one sub flat out can not sound good at multiple seating positions, unless you're in a listening area that is something like 90 feet tall, 90 feet wide, 90 feet long... which is silly.
> 
> ...


Quick question....and no, I'm not trying to steal this thread 

With all your knowledge on sound, and what helps/hurts....does a tray ceiling in the HT room a big no-no with respect to audio performance?

Thanks!


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

dkeller said:


> Quick question....and no, I'm not trying to steal this thread
> 
> With all your knowledge on sound, and what helps/hurts....does a tray ceiling in the HT room a big no-no with respect to audio performance?
> 
> Thanks!


I doubt a tray ceiling would have much effect at all. I will say that a tray ceiling on papre would act as a very general source of bass "diffusion", but not over a very wide bandwidth. It does make "modeling" room behavior a bit difficult but that's about it. Parallel-to-floor Ceilings in general however are a bad idea for audio performance because they are a source of not only bass standing waves but also very early reflections from your speakers. 

If you`ve got conventional speakers, and most of us do, the vertical performance of those speakers is nightmarish because of how the drivers interact with each other in the vertical plane. Combine that with the fact that the reflection off the ceiling arrives within 20ms, and ceilings (and floors, for that matter) are a big source of smearing sound. In my opinion ceilings should have some diffusion panels at first reflection points regardless of whether it's a tray ceiling, cathedral, or flat. Floors should have some 2" absorption panels at first reflection points - these can be hidden underneath a rug of course.

With all that said, I think your best bet would be to head over to our room acoustics board. Guys like bpape can really help you out with a lot more knowledge and experience than myself!


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## dkeller (Jul 5, 2011)

gotcha....thanks!!


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## 4020power (Jul 24, 2011)

So if I decided to go the multiple sub route, what do you think about having 3 of the HSU Stf-2 subs? And how would they need to be located? 2 up front, 1 in the back?


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

4020power said:


> So if I decided to go the multiple sub route, what do you think about having 3 of the HSU Stf-2 subs?


The HSU is a vented speaker tuned at about 25hz. I would personally prefer to go with a sub that can be tuned with meaningful low distortion output close to or below 20hz, like a pair of VTF-3 or VTF-15 perhaps. As I suggested earlier, the Rythmik FV12/FV15/D15/F15 are all good choice. Another option is to go with one deep-reaching sub, and two lesser subs to fill in the room acoustics. As long as the subs are well designed such that they don't distort at high drive levels (IE there is good limiting circuitry in place) then sometimes the additional subs don't need to be identical.



> And how would they need to be located? 2 up front, 1 in the back?


Unless you've got an ideally rectangular room, location can't likely be decided until you get in there yourself. In general though, there's two different methods for placement that you would be well served to research - the Geddes approach and the Weltier/Devanti approaches to multiple subwoofers. 

The best way to get good sound quality with subs, though, is the ability to be able to measure it yourself. Many of us here at HTS are big proponents of including a measurement mic and USB sound card as part of most subwoofer purchases. This can really help you find optimal placement as well as blend two subs together well, and also equalize the bottom end if there's too much or too little going on down there.

For what it's worth, though, you can try out this tool:

http://www.musicanddesign.com/RM_Simulator.html

If you really want to save money and maximize performance, I highly recommend building subs yourself. The end result should really impress you.


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## 4020power (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks for the great reading material GranteedEV, I've been looking it over and will spend some more time with it tonight. As for budget, it didnt take long to realize I was going to have to up the number some to get a few of the extras that I wanted. But with with said, this might be the package I try to put together, what do you think?

Subs- 2 VTF-2 MK3 
Speakers- RF-62II system with two RB-61 II
AVR- Onkyo TXNR3008


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

4020power said:


> Thanks for the great reading material GranteedEV, I've been looking it over and will spend some more time with it tonight. As for budget, it didnt take long to realize I was going to have to up the number some to get a few of the extras that I wanted. But with with said, this might be the package I try to put together, what do you think?
> 
> Subs- 2 VTF-2 MK3
> Speakers- RF-62II system with two RB-61 II
> AVR- Onkyo TXNR3008


I personally feel you can do likely better without spending more... the speakers in particular are mediocre at best IMO


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I agree about the Speakers, but would stick with the 3008. Between it having Audyssey MultEQ XT32, Sub EQ, a strong Amplifier Stage, and the fact that you can get it for $1149 during the Weekends from Newegg, it is truly an awesome value. It also has excellent Video Processing with the HQV Reon Processor and supports Dual Subwoofers with Independent Calibration.

HSU's Speakers would not be a bad choice. SVS has some wonderful Speakers as well. In addition the Infinity Primus are amazing value for the money. A personal favorite of mine are the PSB Image Series which are available hugely discounted from DMC-Electronics, Upscale Audio, and Saturday Audio. Also, Ascends are excellent as well.
Cheers,
JJ


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## 4020power (Jul 24, 2011)

Thanks JJ, I am looking into the S-series speakers from SVS. They seem like a really great speaker at an affordable price. Does anyone have any experience with these?


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

I


4020power said:


> Thanks JJ, I am looking into the S-series speakers from SVS. They seem like a really great speaker at an affordable price. Does anyone have any experience with these?


 have not but based on your budget I highly recommend the EMP e55ti speakers and e5Bi surrounds. pass on the center though. their clearance section often has great condition scratch and dents too.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

4020power said:


> Thanks JJ, I am looking into the S-series speakers from SVS. They seem like a really great speaker at an affordable price. Does anyone have any experience with these?


Hello,
My Cousin has the S-Series and they sound wonderful. I would again go listen to PSB Speakers as they make amazing Speakers and can be found for excellent deals.
Cheers,
JJ


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## AVoldMan (May 15, 2011)

GranteedEV said:


> Corners are especially problematic, and most rectangular rooms will have at least 12 corners that create these problems. Corner bass traps are the key to bass sound quality.


Doesn't a simple rectangular room have only 8 tri-corners? Or am I missing something? Please, clarify.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

GranteedEV said:


> Corner bass traps are the key to bass sound quality.


Any good reading material on this subject?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Jonathan Scull's Fine Tunes are a wonderful Reference and are available free of charge on Stereophile. Mr. Scull was a longtime Stereophile Reviewer primarily Reviewing Ultra High End Components, but released dozens of Articles about Speaker Placement, Room Treatments, and many other things. Best of all, they are almost all done with major budgetary concerns in mind with many of the tweaks costing little to nothing.
Cheers,
JJ


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