# Digital consoles -your thoughts and preferences...



## planetnine

Here's one to kick this off: Digital consoles -how you dealt with them and what you missed from analogue (maybe you never did?) Favourite (or least hated) digital console and why.

I was resistant to digtal consoles for a while because the immediacy of analogue was missing. With analogue every control has its own knob, every compressor can be watched at once, etc. I owned an 03D, but I didn't like to use it for live use.

I've grudgingly got to appreciate digital since the introduction of a couple of Yamaha consoles...

Nathan.

>


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## Soundguy1

I want to get my hands on a digico but I am yet to get the chance. I did just sell our DM2000. We purchased it when we got our PM5D. Talk about a pain. If I only used the DM2000 I would never buy a digital board again. The 5d males sense when you get use to Selecting a channel it works a lot like an analog counsole. In fact it becomes a pain to use out board gear when you go back to analog. We are replacing our 2000 with an M7CL. Another nice board. Having already learned the 5D I find it harder to navigate. Not bad just different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## planetnine

You sticking to analogue multicores or going for something Cat5, Soundguy?


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## tonyvdb

I was a bit hesitant to use a full digital mixing console but we are using one at our church now and I love it, Its a Yamaha M7CL and cant say I miss the Heath & Alan we had before it.


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## Soundguy1

We are still copper. We built just as the digital snakes where starting to come out. In fact we delayed buying a FOH board so we could get the 5D when it came out. that is why we had the DM2000 for monitors we couldn't afford to PM5Ds. 

For an install I don't know if I would go with a digital snake yet. The big problem is you are stuck with a digital board. If your board goes down you can't go dust off the old analog board and plug in. The other nice thing is if I need an extra line to the stage I can put gender benders on the snake and my input becomes a drive line.


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## tonyvdb

Soundguy1 said:


> We are still copper. We built just as the digital snakes where starting to come out. In fact we delayed buying a FOH board so we could get the 5D when it came out. that is why we had the DM2000 for monitors we couldn't afford to PM5Ds.
> 
> For an install I don't know if I would go with a digital snake yet. The big problem is you are stuck with a digital board. If your board goes down you can't go dust off the old analog board and plug in. The other nice thing is if I need an extra line to the stage I can put gender benders on the snake and my input becomes a drive line.


That depends on how you do it. We have standard XLR connectors at stage with the digital conversion done at the back of the stage with patch cords so we can assign whatever XLR to any digital channel. The M7CL allows for either digital inputs or analog and even though the snake is digital the inputs and outputs can be changed to analog with a simple click of a button on each channel.
This is an expensive route but it really gives you great flexibility.


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## PepAX7

Wow! That is nice! I've been hesitant w/dig snakes because of that.

I gotta check out that M7CL.

Pep


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## Soundguy1

tonyvdb said:


> That depends on how you do it. We have standard XLR connectors at stage with the digital conversion done at the back of the stage with patch cords so we can assign whatever XLR to any digital channel. The M7CL allows for either digital inputs or analog and even though the snake is digital the inputs and outputs can be changed to analog with a simple click of a button on each channel.
> This is an expensive route but it really gives you great flexibility.


I guess I don't understand you run both copper and a digital snake to FOH. The M7CL allows you to change the patch from the digital input on a card to an analog input correct.


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## Ford.P

Well to me are almost all digitals which i mixed with pretty unsatisfying.
DIGICO is quite unreliable reffering to firmware changes by some models were new firmwares better but then for strange reason led the next upgrade to crashes again... I run full D5 system with DS00 monitor engine and TC controller all with redundant engines and it needed quite lots of support and hassle. Funny thing was that when redundant engine on main mix went off all the fader levels raised .... Funny desk.

and all cheap Yamahas (01V, 03R, DM1000, DM2000).... I do not know what to say... just listen them

Do small mix bus test split signal of CD player into every channel on the desk and play 1 kHz and fade in one fader after the other and hear phasing issues...

I did not hear the digital desk which do not have them...

You can also play your favourite song into it and see like after fade-in the next fader whole picture just shrinks....

I love digital world to some degree... but digital desks are quite problematic... Their portability on one side and quality on the other. It is all about compromises....


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## Equilibrium8

They certainly do have their flaws, but they are so convenient. Just having reverb and compression on every channel and almost limitless is great. If all of that was outboard, it would be rather hefty for freelance engineers (naturally installed rigs is a different story).


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## tonyvdb

Soundguy1 said:


> I guess I don't understand you run both copper and a digital snake to FOH. The M7CL allows you to change the patch from the digital input on a card to an analog input correct.


Yes, But in our case we opted to just run digital but with a patch bay at FOH. Did you know that you can run an balanced analog signals on Cat5e we have tried it and it works.


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## tonyvdb

Equilibrium8 said:


> They certainly do have their flaws, but they are so convenient. Just having reverb and compression on every channel and almost limitless is great. If all of that was outboard, it would be rather hefty for freelance engineers (naturally installed rigs is a different story).


Thats what I love about the M7CL its got all sorts of EQs, reverb, compressors/limiters and gates that you can apply to any channel. The GUI is just fantastic and having scene memories it makes running a large production a snap even the faders are motorized.


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## planetnine

The M7CL and the LS9-32 are the two Yamaha consoles I was referring to in my first post, and they are consoles I am happy to use now. I sometimes find it takes a few minutes to stop stabbing the (non-touch-) screen of the LS9 after using the M7, but it's great to carry desk & FOH in one box in one hand for those smaller too-many-bands events.

>


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## BoogieBear

Hi there

It has taken me a long time to adjust to digital desks (I'm on my third learning curve ) having had to master three separate operating systems from different manufacturers!

The current desk I use live is a Yamaha LS9-32 installed at a venue with two 24 channel (copper) multi-cores returned to the desk from stage left and stage right providing 16 inputs and 8 returns per side

I still feel this is the safest route because in case of a failure of the desk we could quite swiftly install a backup desk of a different type (even an old analogue one) which for them is a safer option than cat5 digital

Although I agree that having everything in front of you on an analogue desk is very comforting there is nothing to compare with having total recall on the the digital desk not to mention the wealth of per channel facilities (eq & dynamics etc.) found on most models

The time saved in setting up is incredible and the ability to recall the settings for a band or performance from an earlier gig is a huge advantage especially with monitor mixes

On the audio side of things I think it would be a brave engineer who could sit at the front of house position and in a double blind test identify whether an analogue or digital desk was in use :boxer:

The sound quality of most digital desks is far better than the kit it is connected to in a lot of venues and as always the sound quality is only as good as the weakest link in the chain

Given a choice I would never go back to analogue desks now unless it was for the smallest of events on a carry in your hand type of desk

Cheers
Anton


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## planetnine

tonyvdb said:


> Thats what I love about the M7CL its got all sorts of EQs, reverb, compressors/limiters and gates that you can apply to any channel. The GUI is just fantastic and having scene memories it makes running a large production a snap even the faders are motorized.


There are only a limited number of FX on the M7, you apply them using aux sends just like an analogue console -the M7 similarly gives you four additional stereo returns to mix-in the wet feeds. What is great about the M7 is two pretty configurable dynamics processors on every channel, meaning you can gate _and_ comp any and all channels you wish.

>


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## Soundguy1

Not having an encoder on every channel on the M7Cl is killing me, what is your work flow for setting gains? Easy if you have time for a sound check how would you do it if the band has to plug and go? Just trying to figure out the best way to do it, I find it difficult compared to the PM5D.


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## tonyvdb

Soundguy1 said:


> Not having an encoder on every channel on the M7Cl is killing me,


You can assign just about anything to any channel it just takes a little more work. 


> what is your work flow for setting gains?


Gains can be set given what they are being used for. If for example its a Bass guitar Generally they are the same gain structure so in a church setting this would be easy given that the bass player will always use the same channel and if not its simple to copy and paste the setting to another channel.


> Easy if you have time for a sound check how would you do it if the band has to plug and go? Just trying to figure out the best way to do it, I find it difficult compared to the PM5D.


I understand, it can be tough. But thats just what makes this so much fun or interesting.


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## tehguit

I can't really speak for analogue, because i've mostly only used smaller ones, and no big outboard rigs. I was brought up on digital (i'm a studio guy trying to make a living, go figure). I really like the Digidesign Profile desks, so easy, the effects are great (you can add your own and just carry your usual (well my usual) ilok around if you have any favourites, and depending on your configuration it works over 4 bnc cables (venue i work at has RGBHV patches everywhere so its nice and easy)

Haven't had enough chance to play on a M7 or PM5D to say if i like them or not, they seem a bit more complicated than the digi desk, but that just means i'd have to sit down and have a bit of a play first.


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## planetnine

That is one of the downsides of a digital desk -you can't do two things at once! with the M7 it's select, turn, select, turn, select...

With analogue, everything is there in front of you, and you can adjust as many things at once as you have hands 

I would like a modded M7 that shows gain reduction as an LED array on each channel next to the input level, that is something I miss from having a rack of 2ch comps...

Nathan.

>


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## redmountain

Hi, new here, but here we go ...
http://www.redmountain.ch/Livemixing_en.html
I'm mixing with these since they came out, never a crash.
It is basically a hardware box - connectors, DSP - that is controlled via remote software, 
Cuemix FX.
http://www.motu.com/products/cuemix-fx/overview.html
The gates are analog, inserted in the adat preamps.
The LA2A emulation rocks, the EQ is fantastic, 8 stereo mixes.
For more FX ( tap delay or convolution reverbs, I use AULab )
On a Mac mini 24 track recording *at the same time*

And the prize is right :bigsmile:
I use loop backs for subgrouping.
Initial i/o delay is 1.9.ms, with loopback 2.5 ms.

Typical rig :
24 CH input
2 mono audiosubgroups
1 stereo audiosubgroup
1 stereo master
5 stereo monitor feeds
1 reverb

additional FX via software :
1 tap delay
1 convolution reverb

Monitormixing via WLan on stage

The display is a touchscreen ( Elo ).
One can ad a BFC2000 and assign it to the vocal faders as direct surface...

Best regards

Klaus


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## planetnine

It might work for you, but taking a pee-cee into the live arena and having to rely on it gives me the heebie-jeebies! Give me dedicated hardware any time. It's bad enough with digital snakes if they have a hiccup, having to analyse the connection with a netbook (no continuity testing a la analogue world), I'd feel very uncomfortable relying on a computer.

Pre-connect everything, case-up everything, trust nobody, test everything... ;o)

>


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## redmountain

It's a Mac :sn:
And all it does is run the remote control software
- analog Snake
- analog gates

As I said, at the price, I have a complete 2nd backup system with me...
Never carried 2 analog boards before:rolleyesno:

Take care

Klaus


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## planetnine

I carry dual PSUs for analogue boards on important jobs...

Oh yeah, I forgot, Macs don't crash do they..? ;o)

It's still a faff for a job where you need to set up quickly and efficiently, you need the utmost reliability and you need hands-on control and good control ergonomics to work quickly and cooly when things aren't going to plan on stage. Remember live is live, it happens now and there're no second chances.

That's not to say I wouldn't appreciate an article and pics on how this system goes together. It's just after so many years in this war-zone, I'm very cynical over anything that might get in-between me and the job I am doing (it took until a few years ago for me to trust digital consoles at all, but the more recent designs are getting it right).

>


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## redmountain

planetnine said:


> I carry dual PSUs for analogue boards on important jobs...
> 
> Oh yeah, I forgot, Macs don't crash do they..? ;o)
> 
> It's still a faff for a job where you need to set up quickly and efficiently, you need the utmost reliability and you need hands-on control and good control ergonomics to work quickly and cooly when things aren't going to plan on stage. Remember live is live, it happens now and there're no second chances.
> 
> That's not to say I wouldn't appreciate an article and pics on how this system goes together.
> 
> >


Had a Crest CV20 that had the output electronics gone bad...
the 2nd PSU couldn't fix it :rolleyesno:

I already wrote : These systems did *never* crash...
I mean other systems don't crash either...

Remember, it's a hardware box with DSP, that is *controlled* by software, the audio doesn't pass thru the software...

http://www.motu.com/products/cuemix-fx/overview.html

gives an idea how simple the control software is

I'm more interested in simple systems...
setting up digital consoles ( even at home ) can be a nightmare IMPOV, if there are more and more possibilities available.

YMMV

Best

Klaus


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## TimmyP

Soundguy1 said:


> Not having an encoder on every channel on the M7Cl is killing me, what is your work flow for setting gains? Easy if you have time for a sound check how would you do it if the band has to plug and go? Just trying to figure out the best way to do it, I find it difficult compared to the PM5D.


Get a band set up, then save that as a scene. Use that scene as a starting point for every show.

The only difference between having a row of encoders and not is a quick button push on every channel - it's just a second slower per channel.


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## redmountain

redmountain said:


> Had a Crest CV20 that had the output electronics gone bad...
> the 2nd PSU couldn't fix it :rolleyesno:
> 
> I already wrote : These systems did *never* crash...
> I mean other systems don't crash either...
> 
> Remember, it's a hardware box with DSP, that is *controlled* by software, the audio doesn't pass thru the software...
> 
> http://www.motu.com/products/cuemix-fx/overview.html
> 
> gives an idea how simple the control software is
> 
> I'm more interested in simple systems...
> setting up digital consoles ( even at home ) can be a nightmare IMPOV, if there are more and more possibilities available.
> 
> YMMV
> 
> Best
> 
> Klaus


Well, forgot to post links with the faderbox
I love the multitrackrecording too...

Take care

Klaus:sn:


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