# Does Audessy mainly account for the Speaker or the Room ?



## XEagleDriver (Apr 15, 2010)

Last night I received three Ascend Sierra-1s (bought from the classifieds on HTS) and replaced my front three PSB T45/C40 speakers (5.1 system). I did not have the time to re-run Audessy on the Denon 988, yet the Sierra-1's sounded spectacular. 

*1) This made me wonder if Audessy is mainly correcting for room acoustics and therefore its results are relatively independent of the speakers, as long as the speakers are similarly placed in the room?* 

Since both PSB and Ascend are designing their products to be as frequency flat as possible across the operating range, they might appear interchangeable as far as Audessy is concerned.
*2) If this is so, do I need to re-run Audessy at all?*

Thoughts?

Cheers,
XEagleDriver


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

Audyssey EQs your system based on how it interacts with your room. Change one element - a component in the system, something about the room - and the interaction changes.

The two sets of speakers may have similar characteristics, but they won't be identical. I'd re-run Audyssey to ensure that it EQs your system to account for whatever differences may exist.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

Agreed, I would recommend re-running Audyssey as well. Audyssey addresses issues that result from the speaker interacting with the room, which will be unique to each speaker and/or room. There is more to it than frequency response.

edit: yeah - what eljay said :T


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Gonna agree with eljay and Peter. Definitely re-run Audyssey.


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## XEagleDriver (Apr 15, 2010)

AudiocRaver said:


> Gonna agree with eljay and Peter. Definitely re-run Audyssey.


Thanks to all for the advice.

I will rerun Audyssey . . . especially since I just upgraded to 60" plasma and wall mounted the display. So now even the room acoustics should have changed.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

eljay said:


> Audyssey EQs your system based on how it interacts with your room. Change one element - a component in the system, something about the room - and the interaction changes.





Peter Loeser said:


> Audyssey addresses issues that result from the speaker interacting with the room, which will be unique to each speaker and/or room. There is more to it than frequency response.


These posts make it sound like Audyssey specifically addresses issues resulting from a speaker interacting with the room, as if room interaction were separate from the response of the speaker itself and the rest of the system. It isn't, of course, and Audyssey addresses issues everywhere in the system by creating filters in response to measurements of _the entire system_ including speaker response, room interaction, and theoretically even response changes imposed by cabling. 

And to be clear, Audyssey corrects for the _results_ of room/acoustic interactions and issues, but it doesn't change room acoustics. Audyssey is very, very good (especially XT32) at what it does, but it's unfortunate the company markets it as an acoustic modifier. It doesn't modify acoustics, it corrects for the result of modified acoustics. Very different. There's no drying up a long reverb time with Audyssey, for example, though it can to an extend work on the effects of non-flat off-axis response in a reflective room.


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## jb5200 (Aug 20, 2010)

Why is it that every time I run XT32 the place where I put the mic in the 1st position there is 0 bass? I have run it in four different rooms (all differing in sizes and layouts) and every time the results are the same 0 bass from the mic one position, which happens to be the so-called sweet spot, directly between the speakers. 

Others have said I have a null but I took measurements with a SPL meter and found none! I followed the extensive manual online and on posts exactly and no difference and understand their explanation reference bass vs preference bass. So I increase the trim levels to get bass there and then it is so overpowering in other parts of the room, specifically the side the sub is on.

Really tough to show off system to others when you say sit in the sweet spot for the imaging, soundstage, vocals, etc. but then sit over here to hear how amazing the bass is! Frustrating!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

jb5200 said:


> Why is it that every time I run XT32 the place where I put the mic in the 1st position there is 0 bass? I have run it in four different rooms (all differing in sizes and layouts) and every time the results are the same 0 bass from the mic one position, which happens to be the so-called sweet spot, directly between the speakers.


What are the dimensions of your room? Are you using a tripod for the mic and placing it at ear level pointing up?
Where are your subs located?


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

jb5200 said:


> Why is it that every time I run XT32 the place where I put the mic in the 1st position there is 0 bass?


What do you mean by "0 bass"? Do you mean there is no audible bass?


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## jb5200 (Aug 20, 2010)

My room is 14'wx21'd with the couch about 11' back which is where the first mic spot is. I actually use a lamp with a base and a single telescoping rod - the mic actually screws right into the top where you would screw on the nut to tighten down the lampshade. I obviously take off the lamp shade so all I have is one single 1" thick rod that the mic screws onto so for all intensive purposes it's the same as the tripod stand except has a steel base instead of tripod feet. 

Yes pointing up!

I mean 0 bass meaning you don't hear or feel any bass other than a little bit from what sounds like it's coming from the speakers and I have it xover at 60 hz. As you move to the right or left you start to hear and feel bass. If you move to the left (side the sub is on) you obviously hear/feel more of it than the right.

I have my speakers set up like this LF - Sub - Center - RF. I am in the process of adding another sub in the next month hoping to balance things off but it's just goofy how this is setup. I have re-run Audyssey many times thinking I've done something wrong but it's pretty foolproof!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ok I see a problem already, your seating position is dead centre of your room, that is the place wher all the bass frequencies intersect. There is very little you can do other then move your seating back a few feet.


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## jb5200 (Aug 20, 2010)

I looked a little closer and from the front wall it's 15.5' but the sub is pulled out a few feet out so the distance from the sub to seat position is about 12.5' or so, I think audyssey put it at 11 something or 12 and I have moved the seat back a few feet and nothing changed when I did it (a month or so ago) can't rerun it today with the kids around.

I do know that if I stand behind the couch it is only a pinch better but I want it to get it to where it sounds like it does on the left side - deep, tight, clean with a lot of weight.

Once I get the other sub will that help even things off?


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Two possible factors:

Setup mic pattern
Sub distance setting. This often ends up set wrong after Audyssey MultEQ setup is run and has to be reset to its proper value manually.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Got a phase flip switch on the sub? Might try it. Audyssey sometimes goofs on the sub phase test.


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## jb5200 (Aug 20, 2010)

Do I just measure the distance with a tape measure and put that value in or can I just slide the couch back, run Audy and then slide the couch back up to trick it into thinking the distance is different?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

no, the sub measurement is not actual distance it is taking into account how long it takes for the sound produced by the sub to reach the listening position. Bass frequencies take longer to travel so audyssey has to compensate for that. Normally the distance is around twice as much but not always.


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## jb5200 (Aug 20, 2010)

So how do I change it to the correct value?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

running Audssey is the best way. My thoughts are you need to move your sub to a different spot in the room. Have you done a crawl test? You do this by placing the sub where you sit and crawling around the outside of room playing some bass heavy stuff. Where the bass sounds best thats where you should place the sub.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> no, the sub measurement is not actual distance it is taking into account how long it takes for the sound produced by the sub to reach the listening position. Bass frequencies take longer to travel so audyssey has to compensate for that.


Not quite. The entire sound sprectrum travels at the same speed through air. The problem with Audyssey getting sub distances right is in the method it has to use to arrive at the number, which is basically an FFT. With all FFTs most of the total information lies from 1KHz and up, and very little data exists from 1KHz and down, and painfully little data exists from 100Hz and down. In an FFT, precision is related to the amount of data you have to crunch, and you get that by taking more time. There's no way to take that time at 100Hz and down with a chirp (or any other time-related sweep), so the data is sketchy, and the conclusions are less accurate. However, since wavelengths at 100Hz and down are huge, it doesn't matter what that distance figure is. Simply not important. However, what Audyssey does better than a standard FFT is arrive at the real, equalizable frequency anomalies even at low frequencies. It does that by its method of combining multiple measurements using "fuzzy clustering", a high-math method of combining correlated data while ignoring tiny location-specific anomalies, thereby increasing the resulting precision at low frequencies way beyond that of a standard FFT. However, that process is not used for distance measurements, and that's not important anyway.


tonyvdb said:


> Normally the distance is around twice as much but not always.


I've done a lot of rooms with Audyssey, mostly it comes pretty close, even with subs. I find sub phase determination is far more erratic, and even sometimes the phase determination of the mains can be flakey.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

jb5200 said:


> So how do I change it to the correct value?





tonyvdb said:


> running Audssey is the best way. My thoughts are you need to move your sub to a different spot in the room. Have you done a crawl test? You do this by placing the sub where you sit and crawling around the outside of room playing some bass heavy stuff. Where the bass sounds best thats where you should place the sub.


Try that phase switch first before you move the sub or re-run Audyssey. Check the level control on the sub too, make sure it's up. Check Audyssey's results too, particularly sub level. If it's within a +/- 6dB range, no problem, outside of that you might adjust the actual sub control to put it in range.


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## jb5200 (Aug 20, 2010)

I don't have a phase switch - it's a Funk 18.0 with LMS Ultra 5400 driver and I'm driving it with a behringer ep4000 and I thought XT32 automatically sets the phase for the sub. I can't really put the sub anywhere else b/c it's too dang big - it would stick out into the room too far, WAF.

There's gotta be something else I can do b/c like I said I have done this in 2 other rooms at my old house and now 2 rooms in this current house and everyone has been spot at mic position 0 bass and everywhere else there was the further away I went from mic 1 position.

I find it hard to believe that every single room the exact same thing is occurring.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

jb5200 said:


> I don't have a phase switch - it's a Funk 18.0 with LMS Ultra 5400 driver and I'm driving it with a behringer ep4000 and I thought XT32 automatically sets the phase for the sub.


Hang on, the Funk 18.0 is powered, no? Did you replace the driver and bypass the internal amp? 

Regardless, you can invert its phase by swapping the hot and cold speaker wires at the e4000. Just try that first.

Audyssey doesn't change subwoofer phase, but it does (sometimes) alert you to the fact that you need to do it. What I said before is, the phase test Audyssey does is a bit error-prone, for the reasons outlined. If your sub is out of phase, it's possible you'll get less bass.


jb5200 said:


> I can't really put the sub anywhere else b/c it's too dang big - it would stick out into the room too far, WAF.
> 
> There's gotta be something else I can do b/c like I said I have done this in 2 other rooms at my old house and now 2 rooms in this current house and everyone has been spot at mic position 0 bass and everywhere else there was the further away I went from mic 1 position.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that every single room the exact same thing is occurring.


Let's take it one step at a time. I have some other ideas for you re: audyssey and bass.


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## jb5200 (Aug 20, 2010)

I don't think I can switch them because I use neutrik 4 pole connector on the back of the sub and amp. Nah I had funk build me the cab and then I dropped in the driver! I don't have the amp bridged which everything I read says that I should but Nathan funk told me to run it in parallel. There were 2red and 2 black so I connected the same to the driver and mounted it


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## jb5200 (Aug 20, 2010)

Don't get me wrong the bass is good everywhere except in mic 1 position like I said it has been that way in every room I tried! Even the owner of svs helped me bc my first sub was svs but when we went through we ran test tones with an spl meter and there was no null anywhere but still mic 1 position was dead quiet


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

In the interest of troubleshooting, I'd recommend doing whatever you can to accomplish a phase flip at either the amp or sub driver. I'll leave that to you to figure out, but it might be easier to rewire the TRS or XLR connector at the amp input.

Using the Neutrik connector eliminates the possibility of bridge mode...which is why you had that recommendation.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

jb5200 said:


> Don't get me wrong the bass is good everywhere except in mic 1 position like I said it has been that way in every room I tried! Even the owner of svs helped me bc my first sub was svs but when we went through we ran test tones with an spl meter and there was no null anywhere but still mic 1 position was dead quiet


A null that specific that covers the entire bass region is most likely to be a phasing issue. Room mode issues are very frequency-specific. 

If you can't flip sub phase, then flip LCRS phase. Also, you can try disconnecting all the speakers except the sub and see what kind of bass you get. If it gets better, that pretty much insures it's a sub phase issue. 

You can also temporarily set your mains to "small", which keeps their bass out of the sub's region. If that improves the base, you probably have a sub phase issue. It's also not bad to run the speakers as small anyway, since they don't have a lot sub-bass output.


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