# New to speaker design



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Hello everyone! I am a long time forum observer and I really would like to design my own speakers. I realize that this is not for the faint of heart or slow of wit....  I had ordered the speaker cookbook (whereupon a friend promptly lost it) Now I come to you for advice on which software is the best for modeling crossovers etc. I downloaded lSiberian's but I have to admit that I am a bit lost (and new to all this). I have looked online to see if there is a video walkthrough of some software but the only thing I can find is how to enter parameters in Winisd..... Is there a decent tutorial somewhere or maybe another thread which covers the most basic design elements from beginning to end? 

I have the exodus anarchy midranges and would like to start out simple with maybe a TM design. I appreciate all input and advice...... good tweeter recommendation, software, first steps, etc. I do plan on getting a mic to be used with REW if that helps with the process.


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

I see PCD mentioned fairly often. Is it available for download anywhere? Is it user friendly for new users?


----------



## domwilson (Oct 31, 2010)

Here are a few good ones...

https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/simulated-measurements

http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd
http://www.speakerworkshop.com/
http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/frdgroup.htm
http://audio.claub.net/software/jbabgy/jbagby.html


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

I have had a brief chance to look at the links so far and they look super helpful. The first one in the list seems to break it down nicely. Now to see if I can make sense of it all.....  So first thing is I should probably find a tweeter that has a slight overlapping frequency response with the exodus anarchy's.... correct?


----------



## domwilson (Oct 31, 2010)

Here is a link to a project using that woofer...
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=35601


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Thanks! Yep I have read that thread multiple times and have it bookmarked along with 2 other builds for the anarchy. I am going to take a look at that tweeter but I really want to learn how to do this from start to finish without having to just copy another design. I am always impressed by everyone else ability to produce good designs and I want to have at least a basic knowledge of how to attain that. But for simplicity's sake I will probably do a TM.


----------



## domwilson (Oct 31, 2010)

Have you looked at this site?... http://www.zaphaudio.com/


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Oh yes! John is on numerous forums that I frequent. I really like his approach to speaker design and wish I had a tiny portion of his talent.....but much of what he says is over my head. That is why I am hoping to slough and push my way through a design of my own so that I can start to comprehend more (by doing in addition to reading).


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

I have been looking at PCD and I don't think I can use it because I don't have Excel. I have an I7 quad core computer but only have the stock Microsoft works bundle that it came with. Winisd is primarily used for Subwoofers if I remember right.....any other preferences for full range speaker crossover design?


----------



## domwilson (Oct 31, 2010)

I use speaker workshop myself and the others.


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

I was just checking it out..... I see compatible with windows up to 2000. Do you know if it works with Vista or 7?


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

I was looking through different tweeter specs and came across this one which seems to have decent specs to match with the anarchy's (at least to me) I think the low end of 1800 hz would give allow me to cross over somewhere around 2000 or thereabouts..... and the slightly lower sensitivity 89db means I wouldn't have to pad it down too much to match the driver. 

p.s I don't know how to pad a tweeter or L pad a tweeter I just have read too many threads and believe that is what you typically do when the sensitivities don't match well..... 

Here is the tweeter: Morel MDT22 1 1/8" neo 

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=277-062


----------



## domwilson (Oct 31, 2010)

Quick calc for an L-pad http://ccs.exl.info/calc_cr.html#lpad


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Now that site seems super easy! If I pick a 4th order slope for example plug in my tweeter and driver info......it calculates the crossover components. I know that has to be the most basic type of xover design right? Or could I use that to get a ballpark starting point and play with it from there?


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

So using the Morel tweeter and Anarchy as a starting point..... how do I determine what order slope I need? And can someone please explain why certain orders cause phase shift?


----------



## domwilson (Oct 31, 2010)

Yep use that as a starting point. Then model your crossover with PCD and/or speaker workshop. You will have to get FRD and ZMA files for accuracy.Model your cabinet with WinISD. And use Baffle Step sim. to get your final FRD files. Use the steps outlined here... https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/simulated-measurements


----------



## domwilson (Oct 31, 2010)

Using Spl trace, you get extract the FRD files from here... http://www.zaphaudio.com/blog.html


----------



## domwilson (Oct 31, 2010)

Get spltrace from here.... http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/frdgroup.htm


----------



## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

rhino2 said:


> So using the Morel tweeter and Anarchy as a starting point..... how do I determine what order slope I need? And can someone please explain why certain orders cause phase shift?


If I remember correctly 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc are in phase and 2nd, 4th, etc are out of phase.

Cheers,
Bill.


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Hmmmm..... well I tried to download speaker workshop but it wouldn't allow me to enter any data. I uninstalled and reinstalled and still nothing. So I downloaded the previous version and had the same result. Has anyone had success using speakerworkshop with Vista 64 bit?


----------



## domwilson (Oct 31, 2010)

Try running in XP compatibility mode.


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

rhino2 said:


> I was looking through different tweeter specs and came across this one which seems to have decent specs to match with the anarchy's (at least to me) I think the low end of 1800 hz would give allow me to cross over somewhere around 2000 or thereabouts..... and the slightly lower sensitivity 89db means I wouldn't have to pad it down too much to match the driver.



The anarchy is 84.7 db sensitive. Assuming a tentative ~3db of BSC, you're down to ~82db sensitivity. You would still need some notable L-padding in a 2-way TM. A TMM or MTM would likely be easier to work with. I think this driver is best suited to a series-parallel MMTMM. MTM to add 6db of base sensitivity (Now at 90.7db sensitive) plus full BSC with the outer drivers lets you keep the 90 db sensitivity. 

Plus that MMTMM would be ridiculously dynamic even tuned very low (around 25hz). 

The tweeter I would pair it with would be fourth order to the Seas 27TBCD/GB-DXT (I think something like 4th order electrical LPF, cented around 1.5-1.7khz give or take, 3rd order electrical HPF with 2 stages (1st order higher up to flatten out on-axis response, 2nd order down low to get the desired acoustic crossover) and a 10db notch filter centered at 4khz would do the "basic" job), which with the right cap values should need minimal L-padding. You wouldn't get the ridiculously smooth horizontal response of a 2nd order filter but it should still give very good horizontal response and optimally limited vertical dispersion.


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Thanks for the idea Grant..... I thought about getting more drivers and trying to increase the sensitivity. I have only two anarchy's at present. And if I did step up to a mmtmm it would add 5-600 hundred dollars to what the project will already cost. And for my first design I probably shouldn't spend that much only to find out I have a less than adequate design or I poorly implemented it. With the budget being lower I have limited expectations for my first foray..... 
On another note I knew the anarchy's had lower sensitivity and plan on using them as nearfield monitors in our office or a small 2 channel setup. I am not going to put them in the theater. I do have a few separate amps to drive them and will use one that works for the space (I have 125 w/channel,200 w/channel, and 650 w/channel). 

I could pick other drivers for my first try if you think the anarchy's would be better saved for a future project.


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

So as I change the box size or port length in Winisd what characteristics am I looking for? I can see the changes as they relate to spl or excursion etc...... but I don't have the instincts you guys do to look at a graph and tell if it is good or not. For example the transfer function???? or impedance or impedance phase??? what exactly are these and what are the good characteristics I am looking for in all the different graphs?

Yeah sorry for all the beginner questions I know probably eyes rolling here and there. But I do appreciate the help.


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

On a side note...just noticed you are in Calgary.  I am from Winnipeg originally and I don't get back often enough to visit!!


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

rhino2 said:


> Thanks for the idea Grant..... I thought about getting more drivers and trying to increase the sensitivity. I have only two anarchy's at present. And if I did step up to a mmtmm it would add 5-600 hundred dollars to what the project will already cost. And for my first design I probably shouldn't spend that much only to find out I have a less than adequate design or I poorly implemented it. With the budget being lower I have limited expectations for my first foray.....
> On another note I knew the anarchy's had lower sensitivity and plan on using them as nearfield monitors in our office or a small 2 channel setup. I am not going to put them in the theater. I do have a few separate amps to drive them and will use one that works for the space (I have 125 w/channel,200 w/channel, and 650 w/channel).


I recommend 

1) Designing the box using MJK's ML-TL worksheets. 
2) Using a miniDSP and four channels of amplification. Put a cap on the tweeter to protect it but otherwise go ACTIVE. This will make your life 1000x easier
3) Doing this build with gated measurements taken on YOUR baffle. Without measurements it's impossible to make a good speaker.
4) going with the tweeter I suggested. Most tweeters have a difficult time crossing to 6.5" woofers and sounding right without serious room treatment.



> I could pick other drivers for my first try if you think the anarchy's would be better saved for a future project.


Normally I would 100% agree! A 2.5 way with five drivers is a bit complex... the only thing about the anarchies is that you'll never know when Exodus will stop making them, just look at all the exodus subwoofers... no longer even listed


----------



## rhino2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Yeah Kevin has had a bad bit of luck lately. I know with his larger subs the Build House changed a detail without his consent and had an adhesive failure or some such thing......So he axed the build house and took care of his customers but now has no way to get the drivers built. I don't believe the anarchy's were built by the same group, but I agree that with small boutique drivers there is an inherent risk for lack of long term support.


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

rhino2 said:


> but I agree that with small boutique drivers there is an inherent risk for lack of long term support.


so get those extra six drivers now :devil:


----------

