# Better next upgrade, receiver or sub?



## Noshtero (Dec 18, 2009)

Little info first:

My setup is as follows:
TV: 61" Samsung DLP
AVR: Pioneer VSX-520-K
Center: Pioneer SP-C22
Fronts: Pioneer SP-FS52
Backs: Pioneer SP-BS22-LR
Sub: Dayton Sub-1200

I don't have need of any more inputs or anything like that. This is all about sound. This system is 95% used for movies. We only very occassional listen to music on this system.

My thoughts about my system, the bass is lacking. I would love the chest pounding bass you get at a real theater. My subwoofer also has a tendency to "rumble" for lack of a better word. What I mean is it seems like some movies just have a constant rumble of bass going, and it's distracting. It may be a cross over problem. Not sure.

I also don't have that "real" surround sound where you look over your shoulder when a bullet zips past behind you. I sort of get it now, but not really. It still seems like the majority of sound if coming from the front.

Things I'm pretty sure of:
1) I don't have the system eq'd correctly. My receiver doesn't have the fancy MCACC or Audyssey. I have the ability to set speaker levels, which I did based on simply listening to each speaker as my receiver played a white noise track.
2) I don't have the back speakers positioned correctly. I have the back right speaker off to the back corner and about 10 feet away. But then the back left speaker is directly behind me and about 5 feet away. I don't have any other way to do it, however.
3) I don't have the ability to do two subs. I don't have room for it.

My thought would be to replace the sub with a more powerful one. However, it just seems wrong to have all these nice speakers and still a $150 receiver. 

So here's my questions:
1) Do I need a new receiver? I understand I could get something with Audyssey and maybe that would help balance out my sound. Will a better receiver substantially improve the sound quality? Will it help with my feeling of most of the sound coming from the front? If I have all the inputs I need, does it really matter that I have a base model receiver?
2) Does a home theater subwoofer work like my car subwoofer where a more powerful sub will allow my get a punchier bass that you feel in your chest without having to be substantially louder? I can make my $100 Dayton Sub-1200 loud enough that it's uncomfortable to listen to, but you still don't feel it in your chest. I'm not really big on audio properties, but does this have to do with how low the frequency response is and how high of an SPL it can produce? Or is it straight a product of my sub only being a 12" with 120 watts?

My room is around 12'x20' but the back is wide open to the rest of the house. I'm considering putting up a curtain to block it off while I watch movies.

I don't really have a budget. I'm not looking to spend $1000 but I'm trying to find the right answer for me, then if that's too expense, I'll look to how I can step it down a bit.

So thank you for reading all this. I really appreciate the advice.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Well, I can tell you for sure that the receiver is not up to the task of driving those speakers to anywhere near what they can do and I suspect that your getting a fair bit of distortion at any decent listening levels.
Replacing the receiver with one that has a minimum Audyssey Multi EQ XT would be a huge step in the right direction. I would say thats a bigger issue than a better sub at this point as your room is much larger than any sub $600 subwoofer can fill anyhow.


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## Noshtero (Dec 18, 2009)

What receivers would you recommend? I was looking at Onkyo, but the first model that listed MultiEQ XT was the TX-NR818, and that's over $1000. I could handle the 717 for $500, but that only has 2EQ. I'm honestly not really sure of the difference between the two Audyssey's.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Its best to go back to last years model the Onkyo 709. from here or here.
The 709 has everything you could want for a great price. Including EQ XT, THX certification, Pre outs and a very solid amplification section.


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## erazz (Oct 12, 2012)

eq xt does eq for the subwoofer...this is what i have and i love it... http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR809-Certified-7-2-Channel-Receiver/dp/B00505F01E


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## Noshtero (Dec 18, 2009)

Works for me. I had actually looked into the 709 earlier today. I just ordered the 709. I did dig the higher up 809, but it didn't seem like enough extra to justify the extra cost.

We'll see how this does. If I still can't stand the sub, I'll look to replace that later.

Thanks all.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

I would say both the AVR and sub need upgrading.
The AVR was a good choice to upgrade first because that will have a big impact with all of your speakers, including the sub.
But to get really good and accurate chest pounding bass, you need a better sub (HSU, SVS...).


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

There is only so much an entry level sub can do - rumble tends 
to be the nature, for these type subs.


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

That Onkyo TX-NR709 looks like your best, first upgrade IMO. That's exceedingly nice for that money.

Dan


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

just in case it wasn't clear enough :laugh:, I would also upgrade the receiver first with one of the suggested ones. Normally, I would have said the sub, but as tonyvdb said, the 520 is very entry level and lacks the most important innovation in home theater in the past... well in a long while, "room calibration software". 

I speak from experience, I had a 520, then a 921. The 921 only had the most basic version of MCACC. I have a receiver with Audyssey MultiEQ and there is a big difference. And MultiEQ applies less filters than MultiEQ XT.

Go for the receiver.

cheers


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## Noshtero (Dec 18, 2009)

Onkyo 709 will be here Friday!


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

congrats!! and for the record, I'm jealous:bigsmile:


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## jimbodude (Jul 26, 2011)

Absolutely agree with everyone here - definitely do the receiver first, and sub shortly after. You will definitely benefit from the automatic calibration of speaker levels and distances. Try listening to something before and after calibration - the difference is usually quite noticeable.

Another (sometimes cheaper) option than getting a good sub that can get you some of the "feeling" you are looking for are tactile transducers (a.k.a. bass shakers). I had a similar situation with a sub that isn't so great - lots of low rumble, no punch, overall inconsistent sound. I found some Aura bass shakers on eBay for cheap (about $35/ea or the "Pro" ones), got a decent used sub amp with crossover for around $80, and picked up a passive high-pass 50 Hz filter for about $6. I put a splitter on the LFE out from the AVR, one through the high-pass 50Hz and into the sub, the other to the shaker amp. Set the shaker amp crossover to about 55Hz to weed out the higher stuff that the sub could handle. For less than $150 and a couple hours of work, I was able to remove the rumble and get some of the tactile sensation that was missing. There are other options for shakers which have more power and better response ranges - Buttkickers and Clark Synthesis products come to mind - but they are more money.

It is certainly not the ideal solution, but it held me over for a few months and gave me something to do on a Saturday. You don't get the punch in the chest, but you do get a lot more of the feeling when there are explosions, gun shots, crashes, etc. It's even alright for some bass drum in music listening.

Visitors really like it - not too many people have shaking couches...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Noshtero said:


> Onkyo 709 will be here Friday!


Awesome, thats a great choice. Please post your thoughts once your up and running.


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## Noshtero (Dec 18, 2009)

I wonder if putting up a heavy velvet curtain or something would help. The room is like 12'x17', but the entire back wall is open to the rest of the house. If I put up a very dense curtain, would it "contain", for lack of a better word, the sound?


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

It may damp a little, but not likely to contain.

Dan


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

DanTheMan said:


> It may damp a little, but not likely to contain.
> 
> Dan


+1 - really, the best way to contain is decoupled walls. Short of that, the curtain is a less expensive option that will damp a little while also giving a feel of "separation".

Congrats on the 709 - let us know what you think!


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