# Recommendations for Yamaha/Bose set up???



## Evan98

Hi-

Just found this site, and I completely respect you folks and your knowledge/passion for this stuff. I'm a "beginner," and, of course, probably made some rookie mistakes. I have a Bose Acoustimass 10 system (stop laughing) connected to a Yamaha RXV-375 receiver. My tv is a 40" Samsung LCD. I know there's a major disdain for Bose among audiophiles, but for my purposes- in an apartment currently- it's fine, and I'm lucky to have it. If any of you good folks can answer some of my questions regarding how to get the best performance out of my system I would be grateful.

1. Should I use Yamaha's YPAO automatic set-up or do this manually?
2, Do I set the Bose speakers as large or small?
3. I measured the distance from each speaker to the central listening/viewing position and entered this I to the Yamaha receiver. Is the best way to do measurement?
4. Should I tamper with the equalizer settings on the Yamaha or leave it off?
5. What do you recommend for Tone control settings for Bass and Treble (-6db / bypass / -6db)?
6. What should I set my subwoofer level at? I currently have it at 40hz.
7. I have my front L/R speaker levels set higher than my center. Seems that is appropriate. Would you agree?
8. I live on the third floor. I don't want to annoy my neighbors with bass, but I want to enjoy the system. Any suggestions on making everyone happy?
9. I'm told the best sound setting to use is Dolby Prologic II. Agree?
10. Why do some folks holm their Bose speakers directly into their receiver and bypass the sub? Sounds crazy to me...but what do I know.
11. What is the major argument against Bose? Is it the cost kris their a legitimate argument against their construction/ engineering/acoustics?

Thanks folks....much appreciated.


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## gdstupak

1. Use the auto set-up, do not change anything manually. If it doen't sound correct to you, try running it again. If it still doesn't sound correct, then play with the manual controls. After using auto set-up, some settings may seem off to you (i.e. speaker distance), but the Yamaha probably did this on purpose to work more cohesively with other settings.
2. Experiment to find what you like best. Using small setting will probably be best, helping your Yamaha to not over reach it's power abilities.
3. Yes, if you want to use manual settings.
4. The auto set-up should adjust the eq. I would not change it unless it sounds wrong.
5. Bypass all tone control.
6. 80hz is the typical crossover point.
7. Sound levels? Let the auto set-up determine sound levels of all speakers. If you want to adjust them manually, the only proper way to do it is to adjust the levels using a sound meter with test tones. All speakers should present the same SPL (sound pressure level) at the listening area. 
8. Set all manual tone controls on the Yamaha to neutral or bypass. Set all tone controls on Bose to neutral. Run the Yamaha's auto set-up. Do not touch any of the manual tone controls...with the exception of the Bose LFE tone control. Leaving that at neutral should give proper amounts of sound, but if you are worried about bothering the neighbors with too much bass, then the Bose LFE tone control is the one to turn down.
9. I like PLII best (technically I use PLIIx since my system is 7.1).
10. If you are referring to wiring the small cubes directly into the receiver, I can see no reason for it. 
11. Bose speakers are not audiophile speakers, they do not recreate sound accurately. Most here will say that the construction is cheap and they sound bad. I have not inspected or heard any modern Bose system, so I do not know if they feel cheap or sound bad. 
In 1993/94 I started out with the Accoustimass 5 system and they are still being used in my bed room. My old set is very well made with heavy solid construction of all materials used. It is not accurate sounding but is very pleasing to the ear. It will make badly recorded audio sound decent (like an ugly person wearing makeup). But on the other hand, with very high quality audio (the kind that can give you goose bumps when played with accurate speakers) these speakers still just sound good instead of great.
For the price of Bose, you can get great sound form other speakers.


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## Almadacr

Well if it never sounds right even after several calibrations a and DSP modes , one of the 2 is at fault . 

gdstupak already gave the good pointers and steps to achieve a better experience . 

My point it will be about #11 . Why ppl dislike Bose systems ? Well really it's Bose faults , since they wont provide you information pertaining there systems or speakers . Cheap parts for a very expensive system and when tested properly ( several test's are available truth the internet about the Acoustimass ) they have by far the worst frequency response that anyone can see . 

Price by price anyone can agree that we can build a better system depending our tastes and likes .


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## willis7469

Hi, I will mostly address #6. The accoustimass module you have should have a freq response of 46-200 hz. The jewel cubes should be around 280-13k. I would suggest to cross as high as you can to blend with the other channels. Your yammy will probably go to about 120hz. If your crossed at 40hz, that leaves a humongous hole from where the cubes roll off, and the module picks up. This is also some of the reason for my personal distain with the company, which I will spare you, and instead encourage you to embrace the hobby, and hopefully keep pursuing higher levels of audio enjoyment. The other guys have given good feedback also. Oh. I would also trim the LFE in the Yamaha to your liking after running auto setup. Then you'll have a reference point to go back to or from. I would also enter the distances manually if they differ from ypao. Sometimes they get these wrong. Even audyssey.


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## gdstupak

willis7469 said:


> Hi, I will mostly address #6. I would suggest to cross as high as you can to blend with the other channels. Your yammy will probably go to about 120hz. If your crossed at 40hz, that leaves a humongous hole from where the cubes roll off, and the module picks up.


I disagree. The crossover point is not a cutoff point, it is a crossover point. It's a frequency at which signals are split in the AVR. The higher frequencies are sent to the main L/R channels, and the lower frequencies are sent to the LFE output jack. No matter how low or how high the crossover point is set, the full signal will be sent to the Bose speaker system. The Bose system then has it's own crossover which splits the signals between the Accoustimass module and the cubes. At no point is there a frequency hole in the system where the signal is lost. I know, I have an Accoustimass system myself and have tested it.



willis7469 said:


> I would also enter the distances manually if they differ from ypao. Sometimes they get these wrong. Even audyssey.


 As I understand it, sometimes the auto room correction has weird settings because it is trying to accommodate for several different listening positions.


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## rab-byte

Wire your speakers though the "sub". Bose has hard wired crossovers built in for the 5 speakers. Place the sub as close to centered under the TV as you can. Run room EQ. The only distance setting you might need to change is subwoofer distance. 

Leave all manual/tone settings to bypass/neutral and put the subwoofer dial at 50%, if the auto EQ shows "LFE/Subwoofer" gain/volume maxed in +/- then reduce/increase the dial on the subwoofer by 25% and re-do the EQ. 


Bose lifestyle systems are generally regarded as high end HTiB (home theater in a box) units. The AM10/5/6/whatever is the speakers without the power amp. The issues are really 3 fold. 

1) the speakers don't get down to 80hz, at 80hz and below we, humans, generally can't tell what direction a sound is coming from; we just hear it from everywhere. That's why you only need one sub in most system. 

2) price/performance ratio, many see Bose as over priced for their performance. While I generally share this belief with regards to sound quality it's just my opinion and I'd it sounds good to you and you feel it's a value I will not ever question your feelings. Sound is personal and even with very high end systems there are disputes about quality and value. 

3) their ego and claims about quality. Here is the flip-side of personal opinion. Bose has done a great job with brand recognition and creating brand equity. People into HiFi see these claims as faults and misleading. This IMO is the root cause of Bose bashing that is seen throughout the community.


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## willis7469

gdstupak said:


> I disagree. The crossover point is not a cutoff point, it is a crossover point. It's a frequency at which signals are split in the AVR. The higher frequencies are sent to the main L/R channels, and the lower frequencies are sent to the LFE output jack. No matter how low or how high the crossover point is set, the full signal will be sent to the Bose speaker system. The Bose system then has it's own crossover which splits the signals between the Accoustimass module and the cubes. At no point is there a frequency hole in the system where the signal is lost. I know, I have an Accoustimass system myself and have tested it. As I understand it, sometimes the auto room correction has wierd settings because it is trying to accommodate for several different listening positions.


Ok. Let's figure this out. If he crosses over at 40hz, how is the entire LFE signal sent out to the module?(ie:anything above the 40hz roll off point). If he crosses as high as the rcvr will let him, all of that information will then go to the accoustimass module, where according you it has it's own crossover. This is most likely true since the box and cubes are designed to be used together. The "hole" I was referring to, was referencing 1) the only info I could find on the system which shows accoustimass freq resp, 46hz-200hz. Cubes response, 280hz-13,300hz. So on paper alone, there is a hole between 200, and 280hz. 2) Then if he crosses at 40, where is the information from 40-280, where the cubes pick up, and above 13,300? I am not being argumentative, just comparing notes. Maybe I'm way off!


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## gdstupak

The crossover:
The crossover point does not effect the LFE signal in any way, it is for the main L/R signal only. When set at 40hz, all info below 40hz for the main L/R channel are sent to the LFE output. 

The hole:
There is no hole. When you see people post the frequency response of 46-200hz (bass module) and 280-13,300hz (cubes), ignorant people think that means there is no signal outside of those parameters. Actually those numbers represent the signal at a certain decibel range. 
There is a signal in that hole between 200hz and 280hz but the decibel level has been decreased on purpose to get a proper merging of the different speakers. If the bass module and the cubes each had a level frequency response, then that 200-280hz area would be too loud because the signal is added by both of the speakers. 
This hole is present with all systems that merge higher frequency speakers with lower frequency speakers. If you are using main speakers with a sub, then your system has this same hole. I don't know why this is thought of as a fault only when people refer to Bose.


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## willis7469

gdstupak said:


> The crossover: The crossover point does not effect the LFE signal in any way, it is for the main L/R signal only. When set at 40hz, all info below 40hz for the main L/R channel are sent to the LFE output. The hole: There is no hole. When you see people post the frequency response of 46-200hz (bass module) and 280-13,300hz (cubes), ignorant people think that means there is no signal outside of those parameters. Actually those numbers represent the signal at a certain decibel range. There is a signal in that hole between 200hz and 280hz but the decibel level has been decreased on purpose to get a proper merging of the different speakers. If the bass module and the cubes each had a level frequency response, then that 200-280hz area would be too loud because the signal is added by both of the speakers. This hole is present with all systems that merge higher frequency speakers with lower frequency speakers. If you are using main speakers with a sub, then your system has this same hole. I don't know why this is thought of as a fault only when people refer to Bose.


Ok. Your right. Crossover doesn't change the LFE channel itself, but, the crossover isn't for L/R only. It's for all channels.


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## gdstupak

Yes, and most AVR's have separate crossover controls for each speaker. So you can choose 80hz for front L/R....choose 100hz for center.... choose 90hz for surrounds....etc...

Although to be completely technically correct, the crossover can alter the LFE channel. Signals below the crossover point will be added to the LFE channel (LFE output jack). But the original LFE signal from the source remains constant.


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## willis7469

gdstupak said:


> The crossover: The crossover point does not effect the LFE signal in any way, it is for the main L/R signal only. When set at 40hz, all info below 40hz for the main L/R channel are sent to the LFE output. The hole: There is no hole. When you see people post the frequency response of 46-200hz (bass module) and 280-13,300hz (cubes), ignorant people think that means there is no signal outside of those parameters. Actually those numbers represent the signal at a certain decibel range. There is a signal in that hole between 200hz and 280hz but the decibel level has been decreased on purpose to get a proper merging of the different speakers. If the bass module and the cubes each had a level frequency response, then that 200-280hz area would be too loud because the signal is added by both of the speakers. This hole is present with all systems that merge higher frequency speakers with lower frequency speakers. If you are using main speakers with a sub, then your system has this same hole. I don't know why this is thought of as a fault only when people refer to Bose.


hit send by accident. Oops! So crossover doesn't matter for LFE. Agreed. But if the speakers roll off at 280hz, even if he's crossed at 120hz, where's that info between 120 and 280? I know the speakers have a roll off slope, but there is no way that they will roll off with any meaningful level all the way down from 280 to the rcvr cross point.(wherever that is) And the "purpose" for which this level had been decreased as you said is because the 2.5" drivers won't extend lower than that. Not because it would be too loud in that range. So to say there is a hole is incorrect. Admitted. But there will be a very long trough on a graph. Also, if he crossed at 40, how much meaningful content will the module put out if it rolls off at 46?


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## gdstupak

willis7469 said:


> ... But if the speakers roll off at 280hz, even if he's crossed at 120hz, where's that info between 120 and 280?


With crossover @120hz: 
-AVR sends the main speaker signals above 120hz to it's main speaker output jacks. 
-AVR sends main speaker signals below 120hz to LFE output jack.
-Bose system will receive full signal (from AVR's main output & LFE output) and will distribute the signal accordingly to both the bass module and the cubes.
-The signal between 120-280hz will be played by both the bass module and the cubes (since both speakers are playing the same signal, that signal is added together making the output louder than if only one speaker were playing it. That is why there is a dip in frequency response between ALL main speakers and bass/sub speakers).




willis7469 said:


> I know the speakers have a roll off slope, but there is no way that they will roll off with any meaningful level all the way down from 280 to the rcvr cross point.(wherever that is)


The cubes have plenty of output far below 280hz to merge properly with the bass module. If you do not believe me, you can visit my house to listen to test tones on my Accoustimass system. I don't know where that 280hz roll off stat comes from, but not from someone who actually measured the system properly set up. 



willis7469 said:


> And the "purpose" for which this level had been decreased as you said is because the 2.5" drivers won't extend lower than that. Not because it would be too loud in that range.


We are both correct.... 
The purpose for the decibel decrease is for proper merging of different speaker systems, without the dip, the area where the speakers merge will be too loud. This dip will happen at different frequencies for different speaker systems. For this Bose system it happens around the 180hz area because it has smaller speakers. A speaker system with bigger main speakers may have a dip in the 80hz area.




willis7469 said:


> But there will be a very long trough on a graph.


No. With my Bose, there is a short 5db dip in the 150hz area which could easily be corrected with better placement and/or Audyssey correction. No long trough. Many very good systems have much worse than 5db dips.



willis7469 said:


> Also, if he crossed at 40, how much meaningful content will the module put out if it rolls off at 46?


One has nothing to do with the other. Whether if he crossed at 40hz or 120 hz, it all goes to the same place, the bass module.


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## rab-byte

Point of order:
Crossover on an AVR is digital... No roll off slope. So if I set crossover on the AVR at 80hz the speakers won't be told to play below that range. Analog crossovers like those in a traditional speaker are usually 2nd order and what is being said about roll-off is true. 

Thus run the speakers though the sub as it has tuned crossovers for those matched speaker. 

Run room EQ and let the AVR determine crossover point for the speakers and sub acting together as each channel. 

If you did this, then setting crossover on the AVR lower would be correct. If you ran the speakers directly off the AVR then setting the crossover higher would be appropriate. 

Your both kind'a right. 

Since Bose does not publish spec lists for the AM10 speaker system it's recommended to connect the speakers though the subwoofer. 


To address the OP's last question some more... This is another reason people fight with Bose. No published specs.


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## gdstupak

Yes, this is a system made to work together. The only proper way to connect this set up is by following the instructions. Connect the Bose cubes to the bass module, do not connect the cubes directly to the AVR.
If anyone has a reasonable explanation that it is better to connect the cubes directly to the AVR, please post it.

I have seen quite a bit of specs out there, what does it matter that it didn't come directly from Bose? The problem is, ignorant people look at the specs and spread misinterpretation of it. Even on this site I have seen posted frequency response graphs for the Bose that looks the same as other very well regarded systems, but the person posting it somehow explains it as being a very bad response with holes.

As far as price/performance, in my experience it is right in line with several other sets that I have.
I have 3 sets of speakers that have a similar frequency range (~40->10Kkz). 
DCM KX12 ($420/ stereo pair)
Bose Accoustimass 5 ($500/ stereo pair)
JBL Studio S312 ($700/ stereo pair)

The DCM's are good.... the Bose sound better than the DCM's.... the JBL's sound better than the Bose.
Each has it's plusses and minuses. If you want a very small footprint but still have full range sound, only the Bose fits. Unfortunately, to get the small footprint, the Accoustimass module has the usual drawback of having some generic 'boom boom' sound from that style bass/sub.


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## willis7469

O.K. Got pulled away...
1st, I will concede a little, in the sense that I should not multi-task. ...evidence above. what I mean, is that I was overlooking one critical detail. The cubes are crossed in the A/M module, as part of the "System", therefore no crossover change will effect them anyway. rab-byte said:Run room EQ and let the AVR determine crossover point for the speakers and sub acting together as each channel. I wonder then where it would set it? As far as listening to your system for myself. If I were ever in your area, I would be glad to. As to your 5db dip @150hz, I'm curious to where your data came from. REW, tones and a chart, etc. I ask because as you stated above, others have used graphs, and data claiming XYZ, against the bose systems. My info regarding the freq resp, came from notes I made awhile back while looking into the subject, and found what I thought to be objectively collected. Ive seen the same numbers elsewhere but since they weren't published by bose, its fair to say they could be taken with a grain of salt. Just like I do when they won't publish numbers, and instead ask that the customer just listen for themselves. And even if my numbers aren't spot on, I still find it hard to believe that the 2.5" drivers in the cubes, can smoothly roll off down to the A/M module. I would love to see that graph.


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## gdstupak

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-speakers/36281-bose-quality-4.html#post414246
This link goes to a post I did awhile back containing a graph I made with my 3 main speaker systems. Seeing the graph again reminded me that 150hz was right at the target of 82db, and then it dips down between 160-300hz. Sometime soon I'll redo the Bose test and play with the bass module positioning to see how much of that wonkiness can be flattened out. This was a test where I measured the bass module and cubes working together, soon I'll test the bass module and the cubes separately to show what that looks like. 

That same thread used to show a professional graph done by S&V back in 1999 (the graph is no longer available). The S&V graph actually shows each speaker's frequency response as separate measurements. This is a very popular graph that Bose haters like to use because it shows a very sharp dip where the bass module line meets the cube line. This is the hole everyone likes to mention, but as I noted earlier, this dip is needed or else when the system is measured together, it will be a hump.

It's kinda funny that this S&V graph is popular among the Bose haters since the actual S&V review was complimentary of the system (_"guttural, low-bass glory", "{the dialogue} came through crisp and clear, accurately positioned in the center", "..natural, believable vocal timbre and plenty of ambiance", "...airiness...with natural timbres", "pinpoint imaging", "conclusion: I can't say it's perfect, but if you're looking for a visually attractive but unobtrusive speaker system that makes its presence known by its sonics, it'd be well worth your while to check out the AM-15"_).
I used to keep this magazine to remind myself that there are others that don't think this system is bad, but I don't have it anymore. If anyone has access to old S&V magazines, I would love to see the article again. The review was April 1999.


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