# Help choosing power amp to go with Yamaha RX-A1020 AVR



## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

Hello all. I recently had my bonus room finished in, and installed a 7.2 home theater system. My equipment is as follows: 

Yamaha Aventage RX-A1020 Receiver
Samsung PN51F8500 1080P Plasma TV
Sony BDP-S790 Blu-Ray Player
Definitive Technology Mythos One Towers
 Definitive Technology Mythos Nine Center
Definitive Technology UIW BP/A Bipolar Inwall Side Surrounds
Definitive Technology UIW 55 Inwall Rear Surrounds
M&K MX-155SFLE Sub
M&K V-125 Sub

My room size is 23' L by 20' W with a cathedral type ceiling which extends up off 4 foot kneewalls on each side to a height in the room center of about 14 feet. Closed cell spray foam insulation was used, and the room is carpeted with a commercial type pad, so the room seems very tight acoustically.

Here is my issue. While the system sounds great with both movies and music, I find that to get the volume I want requires turning the Yamaha up quite a bit into the upper half of the volume register. I will say that it is capable of playing louder than we would comfortably watch movies or TV, but I'm considering a power amp to increase the all channels driven wattage as well as hopefully the quality of the amplification. I'm not looking to drastically increase the volume capability, but rather improve dynamics, punch, and overall sound quality. As we often listen to music and concert Blu-Ray discs, the quality and realism with these formats is a priority, and I feel that will only improve the movie side of the equation as well. The Yammy 1020 bench tested somewhere between 50-60 WPC all channels driven, this from an AVR rated at 110 WPC :sad2:. I am looking at either a 5 channel amp, letting the Yamaha AVR continue to power the 2 rear surrounds, or go with a 7 channel to drive all speakers. I'd like to stay around $1000 or under, and find the following brands/models of interest, either new or used.

Outlaw 7125
Parasound 5250 V.2
Parasound 5125
Adcom 5 and 7 Channel units ( 75 and 7600 series)

I'm looking for any advice/thoughts/expertise anyone may have. If I could get a superior unit by going used I'm not against that, or possibly it makes more sense to go new and get a warranty. Though I believe some manufacturers extend the warranty to a subsequent owner. Thank you in advance to anyone who kindly responds.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

If you want an amp I would go with the Outlaw, well established company, never hear of any issues with them on the forums, good bang for the buck without trying to be a low price leader.

Other thoughts, on the bench test all channels are driven with a steady state test tone, this does not represent a real world situation for music, games, or movies.
The surround channels get very little use compared to the front three and even the front three are virtually never maxed at the same time...the AVR you have is capable of ear bleed levels in your room.
The position of the volume control is just a position, please don't let it bother you that you turn it to 11.
If you run the YPAO after adding the amp I expect the volume control setting to remain very close to what it is now.
It is unlikely an amp will address dynamics, punch, and amplification quality...that is more of a speaker issue.
I know the Mythos One is expensive if you paid MSRP and while I think Def Tech did well enough with it the small cabinet is a limiting factor that is impossible to overcome for high volume dynamic source material.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Have to agree to an extent with Chasnit, speakers will give a better result. But nothing wrong with an external amp either.

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa-5

This is a great amp for a very good price.


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

chashint said:


> If you want an amp I would go with the Outlaw, well established company, never hear of any issues with them on the forums, good bang for the buck without trying to be a low price leader.
> 
> Other thoughts, on the bench test all channels are driven with a steady state test tone, this does not represent a real world situation for music, games, or movies.
> The surround channels get very little use compared to the front three and even the front three are virtually never maxed at the same time...the AVR you have is capable of ear bleed levels in your room.
> ...


Excellent post!


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

Thanks *chashint, Tonto, and Yoda* for your help. The Mythos One towers were speakers I had purchased new maybe 5 years ago, used for a while in my greatroom system, then took out of service when I had a custom cabinet unit built, requiring me to use a shorter speaker which would sit up on level with the Pioneer Plasma. So I went with the Mythos Three which was a tabletop version of my larger floorstanders. When it came time to outfit the new bonus room, I wanted to utilize the Mythos towers, not that they would have been my first choice, but they were long since paid for, and have a reasonably good sound given the cabinet limitations, especially when crossed at 80hz to the 2 subs. Additionally, in the new room, due to the layout, I needed a speaker which could be mounted in the wall in a slim space, about 10 inches off the floor, and the Mythos Ones worked within those parameters. With the help of the builder, we made a custom grill covered in speaker fabric which snaps in over the openings, giving a nice custom look. I'll post some pics of the system to show how the install turned out, and this will make more sense. 

I will look more closely at the Outlaw 7125, I like that they are made in the USA, and I believe ATI has something to do with the design or manufacture? I could get it new for $999 plus shipping or B-stock for $949 shipped. The Emotiva XPA-5 can be had for $899 shipped. I have seen the Parasound 5125 for a little under $1000 for a demo unit from an authorized dealer. How do you guys view using a 5 channel amp and letting the AVR power the 2 rear surrounds? Is this a viable option or better to go with a 7 channel amp to drive all speakers? Additionally, while the M&K subs are good (one is a dual driver push pull) I could do much better with one of the newer models from SVS, Outlaw, HSU and others. One or two improved subs may well be a noticeable improvement for both music and movies.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

I think we all pretty much agree that the front stage is the most important. Powering those with a 3 channel amp allows the AVR to handle the rest & should have no problem doing so. My advice is to go this route & save some dollars.

2 subs will help with room acoustics, those are good sub companies. PSA is also highly recommended.


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

*Chashint*, I realize that possibly my expectations of what adding a power amp will do may not be realistic, not radically improving dynamics or punch. But what improvement(s) do you think I would see? Even a 125 WPC high current amp would be double the all channels driven wattage from my present setup, and a 200 WPC ( Emotiva XPA-5 or similar) would be even more so.


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

Tonto, I'll start to look in that direction. I assume that if I was to find a deal on a 5 channel for close to the price of a 3, then that wouldn't be a bad thing. I'm guessing that if I powered the front 3 or 5 channels with a more powerful power amp, that during the room setup (in my case YPAO), the relative levels would be equalized, just giving the amped channels more in reserve?


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

What would be some good specific models of 3 channel power amps to consider?


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Mark64 said:


> *Chashint*, I realize that possibly my expectations of what adding a power amp will do may not be realistic, not radically improving dynamics or punch. But what improvement(s) do you think I would see? Even a 125 WPC high current amp would be double the all channels driven wattage from my present setup, and a 200 WPC ( Emotiva XPA-5 or similar) would be even more so.


From the def tech website your speakers are 8 ohms nominal, 92 dB sensitivity, max input power 250 watts.
Your AVR is 110 watts at 8 ohms with 2 ch driven at 0.09% THD.
Keeping in mind it takes 2x increase in amplifier power to achieve 3 dB increase in output SPL...if you were to double your amplifier power you would only get a theoretical 3 dB more SPL.
Now take into account all speakers compress before the maximum power they are rated for and you won't even get the full 3dB in this case by doubling the amplifier power to 220+ watts.
You are using subwoofers, this takes a lot of load off of the amplifier that is driving the speakers.
At approximately 64 watts output power the SPL at 1meter from you speaker will be approximately 107 dB in your room this is going to be very loud and I dare say you do not listen at this level.
The AVR has plenty of untapped horsepower and it is not a limiting factor.
Adding more untapped horsepower with an amplifier will simply not add anything except more untapped power.

I know I come off as anti-amplifier, but not if an amplifier is added for the right reason.
#1 good reason to add an amp is because you want one, no better reason exists.
Other good reasons include having speakers that are 85 - 88 dB and 4 ohms, or you have a huge room full of people you are trying to supply sound to, but the speakers have to be up to the task first.

In your situation if you are adding the amp to improve the sound, I really don't see how it can do that.
The brain is powerful though, if you drop $$ on an amp you will probably think you hear a difference and thinking it is almost as good as actually hearing it.

Good luck and keep posting here, on how all this works out for you.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

This is a very nice 3 channel amp http://www.audioadvisor.com/Parasou...el-Amplifier/productinfo/PAHA31/#.UqTsH3-9KSM 

But this is more realistic for me http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html just get however many you think you need/want.


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

Your Yamaha bench tested about 70 wpc 5 channels driven, the Outlaw 7125 managed about 140 wpc 7 channels driven. Your speakers are pretty efficient but I think you might notice a bit of difference in really dynamic movie scenes or musical passages. I would doubt you'd notice much change in the sound quality. 

If you want an amp or two in your set up I'm all for that, I have a couple in mine too, just don't go into it with high expectations of huge improvements or you may be very disappointed.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa-3

Very nice amp.

Nova is spot on. While this is a hobby & it is fun to get gear. The benefits are small. Speaker upgrades give the biggest improvements. Along with room treatment.


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

With highly efficient Klipschorns I did not need an external amp for my Denon AVR-A100, but I added Emotivas at 200W to each of 11 channels. They did make a difference and my system's volume headroom is unreal.

But, why did I REALLY want external amps? Because they were THERE


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

Thanks *chashint, Tonto, Nova, & hjones* for the good info and links to possible equipment. I will look for a 3 or 5 channel amp and will probably go with that unless I stumble across a deal too good to pass up on a 7 channel. I now realize the difference will be marginal, but if I can get any noticeable improvement at all then it's a win to me. To be quite honest, a small part of it is the hobby part, and I do think there is a part of me that just wants to see a big, sharp looking amplifer on the bottom shelf of my equipment area , but all kidding aside I'm not looking to spend $ for no reason, and want to make a good purchase that will positively impact my system. Down the road, a logical upgrade would be to replace my two M&K subs with one or two newer, more capable units, and that would probably have an immediately noticeable impact.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Tread carefully my friend...upgraditis is treatable, but to date there is no cure!!!!:spend:


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

hjones4841 said:


> But, why did I REALLY want external amps? Because they were THERE





Tonto said:


> Tread carefully my friend...upgraditis is treatable, but to date there is no cure!!!!:spend:


I fight wanting it just because it's there, and upgraditis every day....


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

chashint said:


> I fight wanting it just because it's there, and upgraditis every day....


Quote:
hjones4841 wrote: 
"But, why did I REALLY want external amps? Because they were THERE"

Quote:
Tonto wrote: 
"Tread carefully my friend...upgraditis is treatable, but to date there is no cure!!!!"

LOL, I can certainly relate with this guys.. I really enjoy keeping up with the trends, technologies, and new equipment in home theater/audio/video/etc, but this comes at the cost of constantly evaluating and looking for ways to improve what I have, even down to the smallest of details. But that's part of the fun of this hobby, right? 

Yesterday the weather here was chilly and rainy, so I took the rare opportunity of having free time and watched *"The Hobbit"* on the new system with my daughter (6th grader), who has just started reading the book, so she would be ready to see the second part of the movie when it comes out soon. As I read all of Tolkiens' works close to her age, it was neat to enjoy this with her and see her connect the dots as to the things she had read thus far. We then watched the extended version of *"Fellowship of the Ring"* and I was pleased to see her connect events from one story to the other. I just say this to say that it was a great time to share something with her, and just enjoy my system, the outstanding sound and picture, and I realized that while we always think about the next piece of gear, it's nice to just watch our favorite movies and be drawn into them visually and aurally.


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## Mike0206 (Jul 14, 2013)

Good thread guys. I have speakers with built in 300 watt amps powering the low end on my LR speakers and my center has a 150watt amp built into it. Needless to say I doubt an external amp would do anything for my situation. However if I didn't have powered speakers I would find some reason to justify getting an external amp even though my marantz is perfectly capable. It's just the way it works right? I just need some new subs now and then my system will be perfect! Until the next time I want something....lol


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

chashint said:


> This is a very nice 3 channel amp http://www.audioadvisor.com/Parasou...el-Amplifier/productinfo/PAHA31/#.UqTsH3-9KSM
> 
> But this is more realistic for me http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html just get however many you think you need/want.


*chashint*, That Parasound Halo would be a dream amp for sure, and a fine looking piece too, but is definitely out of my budget at this point. The Outlaw monoblocks look really good too, and seem to be a more cost effective solution. But I'm not sure I have enough plug in space for even 3 of them. I pulled a dedicated 15 amp circuit to my equipment area with a standard 2 outlet receptacle. Into one of the 2 outlets I have a Monster Cable HTS 1600 power conditioner/surge suppressor. On the rear of that piece is a high current amp outlet and maybe a couple aux outlets which are unused, but I don't know if I can safely connect high current/draw amps to this as I already have the Yamaha AVR, Samsung Plasma, Sony Blu-Ray, HD Cable Box, and Sherbourn zone 2 amp connected to it.


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

If you want good bang for the buck on a three channel and don't mind used, I highly recommend an Acurus 200x3. Used ones in excellent condition can be had for about $325 - $400.


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

nova said:


> If you want good bang for the buck on a three channel and don't mind used, I highly recommend an Acurus 200x3. Used ones in excellent condition can be had for about $325 - $400.


Thanks Nova, I'll keep an eye out on Ebay and other sites. Do those have 12v trigger input? Or do you leave it on all the time? I think I remember some of the older Acurus amps I've seen not having the 12v on the back.

Mark


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

There is no 12v trigger on the old Acurus amps. Never been a concern for me as I turn everything on and off manually. Only use the remote to change channels. I think it's a small price to pay, but then I like things clean and simple, not much for all the bells and whistles.


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

Ok, thanks, just curious, that wouldn't be a dealbreaker, just one button to push.


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

Does anyone have any opinions/thoughts/experience with *Adcom* amps? I have seen a few used GFA-7500 units recently in very nice shape for under $500. It is 150 wpc x 5, SN ratio 115, .08% THD, THX certified (if that means anything?). They seem to have positive reviews, but I'm just wondering if that would be worth considering.


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

I just ordered the EMOTIVA XPA 3 for this system....

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-speakers/70542-home-theater-build-1-a-2.html

should be in by Friday so ill put up a review once we here it....CANT WAIT :bigsmile:


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

RTS100x5 said:


> I just ordered the EMOTIVA XPA 3 for this system....
> 
> http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-speakers/70542-home-theater-build-1-a-2.html
> 
> should be in by Friday so ill put up a review once we here it....CANT WAIT :bigsmile:


Thanks RTS, I'll watch for your thoughts on the XPA-3. And that is one fine looking system and room, outstanding work!


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## rodneyiii (Jan 31, 2014)

Mark64 - have you decided on anything yet?

Let me fill you and others in on my recent experience with an RX-A1020. I have an older Yamaha RX-V2300 that still pumps out plenty of power & punch in my audio system but I needed to upgrade to something that had HDMI switching. Since I had been happy with my current Yamaha, I began my search looking at new Yamaha stuff. I have my 5.1 speaker system connected to the spkr "A" outputs on my old Yamaha along with a custom pair of larger spkrs connected to the "B" outputs. I only use the A's and B's together when I want to rock the house with some good Heavy Metal, otherwise the B's stay off to maintain the matched 5.1 system balance. Very few new receivers have spkr A/B outputs.  Instead, they have "Zone2" outputs in place of "B" outputs. This isn't the same thing and doesn't work like I want. However, I bought a Yamaha RX-A1020 since it had "Party mode" to mesh the main and Zone 2 together (sort of).

I hooked everything up to the new Yamaha and tested the sound. Remember, my old unit didn't have YPAO or any auto calibration so my speakers were running with a flat signal except for some manual audio level tweaking to help with distances. Anyway, right away I could tell the A1020 had a problem with low bass output to my front mains. The bass drum punch wasn't there and the lows were anemic. After trying a few things, I called Yamaha tech support. After waiting at least 20 min., I explained to the tech what my issue was. His first and last thought was that my old V2300 was a better built amp and had more dynamic headroom to add the punch I was now missing in the A1020. Really dude?! I wasn't satisfied with that answer and did some more testing. Here is what I determined.

You can try this same thing and I would love to hear your feedback. Use a good, familiar 5.1 concert or something that has consistent low bass. In the speaker setup, enable all of your speakers, including the sub and center channel. Make sure the front mains are set to "large". Set the decoding for "Straight" Dolby decode so there aren't any other artifacts or matrixing added to the output signals. Play the audio and see that it sounds OK at moderate volumes. Now, turn the power off to the SUB so you can distinctly hear the bass coming from only the front main L/R spkrs. This way, the SUB isn't masking what bass info is being sent to the front mains. This is when you can hear the problem. While the music is playing, enter the Manual spkr Setup menu and disable the center channel. The system immediately sends more bass to the mains. Even if the center spkr is set to "small", if it is enabled, the A1020 sucks bass away from the mains (it should not be doing this). Keep the center spkr disabled and see how the bass sounds now when you crank it up. Now, disable the SUB in the Setup menu and obviously, more bass will be sent to the mains. That is what SHOULD happen when the sub is disabled. Re-enable the SUB so it re-directs the bass back to that channel (you still have the SUB powered off). Now, go to the EXTRA BASS setting. Enable and disable the feature. According to the owner's manual, enabling Extra Bass should send the low frequencies to BOTH the front mains and the SUB. By still having the power off on the SUB, you can tell that no add ‘l bass (the low, low freqs) is being sent to the mains when Extra bass is enabled. The system is expecting the SUB to handle ALL of the low frequencies regardless of the size setting of the mains which, IMO, is not good when many systems have fully capable front main spkrs that are being castrated by this bass management method.

Now for the kicker. If what the Yamaha guy was saying about the V2300 having more headroom is true, I can hook it up as an amplifier and run the front main pre-outs from the A1020. That way, I can drive the front mains with the stronger amp and keep my good bass. Wrong. Since the A1020 is doing the signal processing, the same weak bass signal is being sent to the spkr outputs AND the pre-outs. Therefore, the V2300 amp is receiving an already bass averse signal. The only way around that is to have the V2300 do the processing first and use the A1020 as the amp. That, however, defeats the purpose of buying the HDMI capable receiver.

After determining the bass was being altered by the system, I tried to get Yamaha’s help again to try and clear this up. I tried on two different days to contact them. I waited on hold for 30 minutes one day and 60 minutes the next day to no avail. This problem was a show stopper for me. Plus, the Party Mode still won’t control all the speakers in tandem. You have to turn up the volume in the main zone, slide the switch on the remote to Zone 2, then adjust the other spkr volume. There were too many negatives with the Yamaha for me to keep it.

I searched more and bought the Marantz SR7008 since it DOES have a speaker A/B mode that works like it should. It also has the proper bass output when running through the previously described tests. The Metallica “Through the Never” movie sounded great!

The bottom line is – I don’t think your problem is lack of power to give you the bass you want. It appears to be the Yamaha processing the bass out of the front mains that is the problem. If anyone reading this has suggestions or an explanation as to why it works this way or if my testing is flawed, please post. I couldn’t get Yamaha’s help.


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## hotrod351 (Nov 15, 2014)

found this thread while searching about the same problem i feel i have with my yamaha rx-a1020. i have jamo 707i's for front towers, 200 watt long term and 280 watt short term, 4ohm. i find myself turning it up to -18db to get any really volume out of it and dont think thats right. im told i can turn it way up as long as it doesnt distort, which it hasnt yet, but feel that a amp that put out 250 watts, or better, would be the way to go. from what i understand you cant have to much power. what id feel would be right is to be able to turn my yamaha rx-a1020 up to -20db and have it loud, not -12db.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Hi Hotrod, welcome to HTS.



hotrod351 said:


> found this thread while searching about the same problem i feel i have with my yamaha rx-a1020. i have jamo 707i's for front towers, 200 watt long term and 280 watt short term, 4ohm. i find myself turning it up to -18db to get any really volume out of it and dont think thats right.


Your speakers are (avg) 90db/2.83V, 4 ohm (avg), which approximates to around 87db/1 watt. That's not terribly high sensitivity, so "-18" (which is a relative scale) for loud volume from a typical AVR doesn't seem unreasonable to me.



hotrod351 said:


> im told i can turn it way up as long as it doesnt distort


Yes. So long as there isn't audible distortion, there is no need to pay heed to what "-18" or "-12" volume gain is displayed on your Yamaha. It's completely irrelevant as long as the sound levels are sufficient...and undistorted.

cheers,


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## hotrod351 (Nov 15, 2014)

ok then im safe. no worries about pushing my receiver to much for when i really want to play it loud.


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## albe (Nov 25, 2015)

rodneyiii said:


> Mark64 - have you decided on anything yet?
> 
> Let me fill you and others in on my recent experience with an RX-A1020. I have an older Yamaha RX-V2300 that still pumps out plenty of power & punch in my audio system but I needed to upgrade to something that had HDMI switching. Since I had been happy with my current Yamaha, I began my search looking at new Yamaha stuff. I have my 5.1 speaker system connected to the spkr "A" outputs on my old Yamaha along with a custom pair of larger spkrs connected to the "B" outputs. I only use the A's and B's together when I want to rock the house with some good Heavy Metal, otherwise the B's stay off to maintain the matched 5.1 system balance. Very few new receivers have spkr A/B outputs. Instead, they have "Zone2" outputs in place of "B" outputs. This isn't the same thing and doesn't work like I want. However, I bought a Yamaha RX-A1020 since it had "Party mode" to mesh the main and Zone 2 together (sort of).
> 
> ...




WOW WOW WOW and he is 100% correct. I'm amazed as this is my 3rd Yamaha A...it'll be my last for sure.

I always thought I was crazy and wanted to get am amp for the mains...
Anyone want an RX-A1020 cheap? :devil:


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

I ended up getting rid of my Yamaha (RX-V663 IIRC) because of a bass management issue. There was some weird artifact in the sub channel processing that resulted in synthesized sub-harmonics bleeding into my subwoofer. It wasn't terribly noticeable in LFE tracks in movies, but it was completely intolerable in music. The only way around was to disable the subs (either in menus or at the amp). 

It wasn't an age issue either. I noticed it after a few months of ownership... it took a few years before I could afford to replace with an Outlaw 975, but I couldn't be happier. I sold it to a friend (bass issue advertised before the sale... I'm not a jerk), and he's using it in 2.0 which always sounded just fine.


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