# QSC Amps for HT?



## allredp (Feb 7, 2007)

I have a chance to get some used QSC amps (Series Three 3500 and/or MX1500-each about 300-400 wpc @ 4 ohm/2 channels) for $200 each. 

I'm worried about the noise floor and the potential distortion since they are rated 20-20k at 0.1 THD.

My mains are Dahlquist QX10s which are 4 ohm and rated up to 250 watts. 

My old Yamaha RX1200 AVR is just not enough in my 6.1 and I can hear some strain at high levels. 

Obvious next question is that if the QSC would work, then do I get another one for the Center and surrounds? Or, could the Yamaha, now unburdened with the mains, handle them?

I really appreciate any help!

Thanks,


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

I wouldn't necessarily worry about the distortion value at the rated power. At 450 watts and 500 watts per channel, both channels driven at 20-20,000Hz into 4 Ohms with 0.1% THD, respectively, the QSC Series Three 3500 or QSC MX1500 will deliver more than enough power to your Dahlquists with low distortion. But that doesn't say anything about how these particular amplifiers will sound in your system. It is also likely, unless you have a very large room, that the cooling fans in the MX1500 should not activate during most viewing sessions. I'd give the Series Three 3500s a try. You certainly can try your center driven from your receiver, but I'd think about three amps to drive your 6 channels. I assume you have two mains, two surrounds, a center front and center rear for the six channels? More power can be a beautiful thing, if it is the right power.


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## allredp (Feb 7, 2007)

Hey Jackfish--thanks so much for the reply.

I'm not sure what I'll end up doing--$600 is a lot--but that would be a lot of power, too.

Like you said, I have no idea what they would "sound" like in my room (27' x 15' x 8'). I just know that my older Yamaha isn't giving my mains enough power and I really want to fix that problem as affordably as possible.

Thanks again,
Phil


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Your Yamaha receiver could get some new life by taking advantage of its 6-channel preamp outputs attached to three 2-channel power amps. If those QSC Series Three 3500s are in good condition that is not a bad price for that much power. I have heard that in pro audio set ups the 3500 has a reputation for being pretty much bomb proof. Since it is a Home Theater application the way they sound is less demanding than for a critical listening music system.

You certainly could try one amp for your mains and see how it sounds with the Yamaha driving the surrounds/centers. If you think you would like more punch you could then get a couple more of these amps if they are still available.


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## conchyjoe7 (Aug 28, 2007)

Here's my 2 cent take on this subject. I was in the pro nightclub industry for almost 30 years and much of that time we used QSC amps; they are bomb proof. However, and it's a big however IMHO, they have enough "hiss" to drive anyone who is going to listen to anything even modestly critical to tears. They will play loud (VERY loud) and probably last forever, but you really need to think or at least if you can, audition them in your home with your speakers before plunking down the cash. I know that lots of people are starting to use this kind of gear in their homes due to the power to cost ratio, but that power to cost ratio comes at a price as well. In reality you must know that if they were that good, we'd all have them instead of putting out much more cash for other amps...there is no such thing as a free ride, and there will always be compromises when cost becomes the determining factor in any purchase. In this case, that compromise is (what I consider) far too much distortion.

I guess I really do need to qualify my opinion by also stating that I have been retired from the business for about 5 years now and maybe they've cleaned up their "hissing" act.
Cheers...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

conchyjoe7 said:


> Here's my 2 cent take on this subject. I was in the pro nightclub industry for almost 30 years and much of that time we used QSC amps; they are bomb proof. However, and it's a big however IMHO, they have enough "hiss" to drive anyone who is going to listen to anything even modestly critical to tears. They will play loud (VERY loud) and probably last forever, but you really need to think or at least if you can, audition them in your home with your speakers before plunking down the cash.


This is true but in your situation you probably ran the levels on the amps wide open and then controlled the incoming audio from your mixer and EQs. This will most defiantly cause hiss in a system. For home use I would think the most you will need to run the level control on the QSCs would be at about half. this will reduce the noise floor substantially. 
QSC makes great amps but these tend to be a bit harsh sounding as they are ment to be driven hard and in a Live situation not for home use.
An 3rd octave EQ between the receiver and the amp wold help allot but not necessary.
Go for it as it will give you lots of headroom.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> For home use I would think the most you will need to run the level control on the QSCs would be at about half. this will reduce the noise floor substantially.


Not so sure about that. Home audio operates at a lower level than pro gear, so it seems to me like the gains would need to be pushed higher, if anything.

That said, I agree that there’s a really good chance in Konky’s situation that much if not most of the noise could have been coming from somewhere upstream...



> QSC makes great amps but these tend to be a bit harsh sounding as they are ment to be driven hard and in a Live situation not for home use.


Actually, my rule of thumb for anyone wanting to use pro gear for full-range applications in their home system is to make sure you have a generous return policy, and carefully audition it, preferably do a direct head-to-head comparison with the regular gear. Some pro gear is clean enough for hi-fi use; others not so much so. Pink noise is a good signal source to show timbre changes (coloration).

Regards,
Wayne


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Not so sure about that. Home audio operates at a lower level than pro gear, so it seems to me like the gains would need to be pushed higher, if anything.


True but given that these amps in question are around 500watts he will not be using anywhere near that so the levels will not be turned that high.
I have a 4 channel amp and two monoblocks and run the levels on the 4 ch. at about 2/3 of the way up and its 240 watts per ch. If he was to run them full his receiver level would need to be turned way down and thats not the proper way to do it.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> I have a 4 channel amp and two monoblocks and run the levels on the 4 ch. at about 2/3 of the way up and its 240 watts per ch.


Are those home or pro amps? If they’re home amps, it’s not the same thing, as they are designed for home audio’s lower signal levels.

By the way, nice to see another AudioControl C-131 user. I think you're only the second one I've ever run across! :T

Regards,
Wayne


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

I'm using the RMX 1450, granted it is a newer amp, but I have no noise at all, (it's driving my sub now but I have tried it on my mains) I dont think you could go wrong at that price.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Here’s one I’d like to use, just because it looks cool as all get-out! :yes:










Regards,
Wayne


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Are those home or pro amps? If they’re home amps, it’s not the same thing, as they are designed for home audio’s lower signal levels.
> 
> By the way, nice to see another AudioControl C-131 user. I think you're only the second one I've ever run across! :T
> 
> ...


The one is a Samson 4120 and the mono blocks are White Audio B80's the Samson is defiantly "Pro" and the White Audio could also be classified as "pro" as well. I do understand where you are coming from but the wattage will also decide how much volume can be produced by the amp even if the line signal is low. If your driving speakers that are 200 watts with a 500 watt amp you will not need to run the amp very hard to get that amount of volume.

Yes, the C-131's are very nice I would have to say the cleanest EQ's I have ever used, they simply have no noise to speak of.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2007)

I would like to throw in my 2 cents regarding pro-amps for home use.

I have been using several different pro-amps in my systems for years. The first was a Carver Pro PM700. I bought it for subwoofer duty, but before I actually used it on the sub (wasn't built yet), I powered my mains for a couple of months or so. At the time, I had JBL L112's (89dB), Magnapan MGLR-1's (86dB) and Klipsch Cornwall's (98dB) that I would rotate through. That amp was connected directly to the preamp output of a Harmon Kardon AVR-55 and sounded great through all of them, never had any hiss or hum, and that with the gains turned all the way up. The only thing I didn't care for too much was that the soundstage wasn't wide with the PM700. It stayed between the speakers and never wider. I had that amp for years, up until a couple years ago when I eventually bought an SVS PB12-ISD/2.

In my current setup, I am back to a DIY push/pull sub using a Crown XTi 1000, and a Crown D-75A on my Altec 511B horns loaded with Altec 902-8B drivers. Before I went with a fully active crossover and bi-amped mains, I tried the XTi on my mains for about a week. This amp sounds excellent. Again, there's no hiss or hum whatsoever, and the soundstage was wide and deep with as good of imaging as my huge Klipsch/Altec combo mains can manage in my small 13x17x8 room. This amp is by no means harsh sounding, not by a long shot. 

The Crown D-75A that I have is also an excellent amp. It's only 35W p/ch @ 8 ohms, but when you're powering a pair of Altec horns rated at 114dB @ 1W, you don't need much power to get crazy loud. The XTi is a clean sounding amp, but the D-75A is even cleaner, especially through these efficient horns. Again, no his, no hum, no harshness.

I should add that with my current system, the XTi 1000 is running wide open, connected directly from the LFE pre-out from my Pioneer Elite VSX-54TX receiver. For the mains, the pre-out signal first goes through a Rane Balance Buddy BB-22 to bump the signal up to +4dBu balanced XLR's. From there, it goes into a Behringer Ultragraph DEQ1024 for a very slight tweek. Then from the EQ into a Rane AC22B crossover before going to the "mains-in" (all controls bypassed) on a Technics SU-8099 integrated amp for the Klipsch Cornwall woofers and the D-75A to the Altecs. 

Because the Technics is esentually a basic amp with all the controls bypassed, there's no way to adjust the gain on it. For this reason, I have adjusted the signal level inputs and outputs on the Rane crossover and Crown D-75A amp to pretty much unity-gain which turns out great with the Technics.

Anyway, that's all I have to say.


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

I'd expect that 3 pro power amps would be a bit of overkill - I'd be thinking just one for the mains.

I'm currently using a EP2500 for my mains, which is much more than they need, but it's nice to know that the amp is never going to clip. I have the passive attenuators turned down to half, so it's probably more like 325w. I find that turning the volume knob up to 10 o'clock is where it gets really loud and I don't dare go further. So in essence, it's like having 250w with lots of headroom. 

I've also used two other pro amps, both for subs and my mains. What impresses me the most is that I manage to get more out of my mains - more clean output. I find the speakers can go further than you expect when you are used to a modestly powered amp. I was stunned the first time I tried a 450w amp - the bass was really surprising. 

Still, for music, and critical listening, I'd rather a Rotel, and still consider it worthwhile and a good place to sit as far as value for money goes. I once compared a Rotel to a DIY chip amp, same track, same setup, just switching the amps a number of times. There was a subtle but worthwhile difference - not the kind you would notice with a movie, but the kind that makes well recorded jazz sound just that little bit better, if that's what you are into. If you don't enjoy your system that way, sitting and listening to music quietly, then I'd go the pro route. 

You can always upgrade later.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2007)

It's NOT overkill. You said it yourself... 

_"you get more out of my mains - more clean output. I find the speakers can go further than you expect when you are used to a modestly powered amp. I was stunned the first time I tried a 450w amp - the bass was really surprising"_.

Pro amps (depending on brand and model) are very under-rated by most. Pound for pound, dollar for dollar, they have better specs than your typical home audio amp and some "audiophile" amps. 

1) Good pro amps will have beefy power supplies and high power output. The high wattage gives you plenty of slam and headroom at most any volume for home use. This keeps the amp in a comfort zone, almost at idle, never being taxed out and clipping. The beefy power supply keeps plenty of juice on tap for those dynamic peaks which will be a walk in the park for a good pro amp.

2) Good pro amps will have a high damping factor, some as high as 5000 and on average of about 500-1000. The high damping keeps the bass ultra tight and crisp because the amp has the ability to easily control the driver(s) movement much better than most home amps.

3) Some really good pro amps, such as Crown's own K1/K2 amps and my little D-75A, as well as the D-45A amp, has ultra clean output and very very low THD (0.001% and a max of 0.05% at full output) and an S/N ratio of 106 dB.

You can get these kind of excellent specs usually below $1000 from pro amps. Try getting any home amp to come close to these kind of specs below $1000 (audiophile amps, figure $3500+ minimum easy). You can't. At best, most home amps are way over-rated and can't deliver anything near their "rated" specs.


And why upgrade later? That's just wasting more money in the long run. If you can, save up and buy the one you really want right off the bat.


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

I don't know what his surrounds are, and I'm all for using pro gear where it works well for home use. I also don't know how much power that receiver has, but I wonder if it's really worth giving surrounds that much power. Especially if they are like many tiny little surrounds with 4" drivers, too small to have decent efficiency and power handling. Lots of receivers these days have 120w which should be plenty to power the surrounds that most use when mains power amps aren't in use. 

Can't say much without knowing more, but I'd think one or two of those power amps would make more sense to me than 3. 

I was having a play with WinISD the other day with some surround speakers and one of them didn't know what to do with anything more than 10w. Also keep in mind that those mains may in fact be excursion or thermal power limited in their output depending on how they are configured. If used with a suitable HP filter, it will be thermally limited, in which 250w will apply. If run full range their excursion limited power may in fact be far less. With no rumble filter, vented mains can be driven to overexcursion to mech limits with very little power quite easily. Put a 4LR @ 80 Hz and they will never move much at all. 

Still, if you really want to drive your surrounds with that much power, who am I to stop a little excess! I like to have a little overkill from time to time.


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## conchyjoe7 (Aug 28, 2007)

Sorry but I simply have to put in another 2 cents here. Without going into all the details, BUT based on quite a long lifetime's experience; I simply couldn't possibly disagree with Anamorphics statements made above more strenuously. I wish we were closer so we could do a heads up *quality* (not quantity) critical listening session between our systems...although in actuality I think in quantity I'd smoke ya too! There are very few digital class "pro" amps I haven't heard, and none (I have heard so far) I'd even consider for critical listening. Beefy power supplies?...Now, I know you're kidding...that must be why e.g. a Crown XLS 602D rated to deliver 380 wpc (wink wink) into 8 ohms weighs a whopping 35.6 pounds includimg it's heaviest part: It's cooling fan, and my measly overpriced Parasound HCA-2200 mk II rated to deliver 250 wpc into 8 ohms weighs 60 pounds and does NOT have a tweaking loud fan.
Like I said just my 2 cents worth...everyone has and is entitled to their opinion, but let's not get ridiculous on overstating pro versus audiophile amps and the quality of sound and real world specs each represent...I'm sure you're aware that specs quoted by builders of pro amps are not under any sort of guidelines whatsoever to back up their sometimes ludicrous statements. There simply is no real comparison!!! Now, if one wants to say "I can't hear the difference" or "that's all I'm willing (or able) to spend", or "they sound fine to me"; so be it, but believe me, I wish there were real world contenders in the pro D amp camp...I'd be in pocket big time.:bigsmile:
Cheers,
Konky.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2007)

conchyjoe7 said:


> Sorry but I simply have to put in another 2 cents here. Without going into all the details, BUT based on quite a long lifetime's experience; I simply couldn't possibly disagree with Anamorphics statements made above more strenuously. I wish we were closer so we could do a heads up *quality* (not quantity) critical listening session between our systems...although in actuality I think in quantity I'd smoke ya too! There are very few digital class "pro" amps I haven't heard, and none (I have heard so far) I'd even consider for critical listening. Beefy power supplies?...Now, I know you're kidding...that must be why e.g. a Crown XLS 602D rated to deliver 380 wpc (wink wink) into 8 ohms weighs a whopping 35.6 pounds includimg it's heaviest part: It's cooling fan, and my measly overpriced Parasound HCA-2200 mk II rated to deliver 250 wpc into 8 ohms weighs 60 pounds and does NOT have a tweaking loud fan.
> Like I said just my 2 cents worth...everyone has and is entitled to their opinion, but let's not get ridiculous on overstating pro versus audiophile amps and the quality of sound and real world specs each represent...I'm sure you're aware that specs quoted by builders of pro amps are not under any sort of guidelines whatsoever to back up their sometimes ludicrous statements. There simply is no real comparison!!! Now, if one wants to say "I can't hear the difference" or "that's all I'm willing (or able) to spend", or "they sound fine to me"; so be it, but believe me, I wish there were real world contenders in the pro D amp camp...I'd be in pocket big time.:bigsmile:
> Cheers,
> Konky.


Hi Konky,

Like you say, to each his own. But who said anything about digital pro amps?

Anywho... I'm not basing my opinion on quantity. I have no need to. I can reach insane levels with only a few watts, and that's no joke. My Klipsch Cornwall K33-E drivers are rated at 98dB @ 1W/1M in the Cornwall enclosures, which the Technics amp powers. As it's just barely peaking at 3 watts, it's almost too loud to stay in the room. The little Crown D-75A is maybe pumping out a max of 0.5 watts into the Altecs. At that power level, the D-75A is extremely clean (very low THD, IMD). That's precisely why I chose that amp for the horns.

I've tried a few other amps on these horns before, including an Adcom GFA-5400, an Aragon 2004 MkII, a Carver TFM-35, and a couple others. They all sounded great, but there's something special that the Crown D-75A does that the others couldn't. I can't exactly pin-point it, but there's a difference, like a bit more presence and life to the sound and even a bit more depth.

And yes, beefy power supplies. At least, they are beefy enough to get the job done. I'm refurring to raw power output for woofer and subwoofer duty, AND with a decent amount of damping. Honestly, is there an amp out there in the home audio world that can provide 1000 watts into an 8 ohm load (bridged mono of course) with a damping factor as high or better than 500 that costs less than $600? How about less than $1000?

Don't get me wrong, there's good and bad amps in both the pro and home audio world. But like I said ealier, pound for pound, dollar for dollar, IF you know what to look for and what brands/models to stay away from, you can have one **** of a great sounding system using pro audio amps that match or rival home audio amps for a lot less $$$, not only in overall power, but overall sound quality as well, which was my main point to begin with.

Once I get my D2 clone project done, feel free to stop by for a spell. :R


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2007)

I wouldn't judge anything by weight alone, especially with switchers, and there is nothing wrong with them... A QSC PLX 3602 at 15 lbs or whatever has a power supply that will deliver more current than just about any "high end" amplifier on the planet....

I have mixed Pro and high end audio for a while now, mostly to get enough power for subwoofers, I have been happy most of the time. All of the QSCs will run dead silent, assuming you feed them with a low noise source...

And for anyone who thinks thier gain control set the maximum power output, think again, that is the biggest mistake you could ever make...

BTW, I have owned a KSA50, Aragon 8008, Adcom GFA555, Melos, Audioprism, Hafler, Kyrocea, etc.... I have played with almost everything, so I'm not basing these opinions on a whim...

One thing, the pro amps have never sounded as good to me as high end home gear, but this doesn't mean they are noisy or run with high distortion, they just seem to be sterile and somewhat lifeless sometimes... But for most people out there, including myself sometimes, they sound just fine... They sound better than the amplifiers in any of the $500 recievers you buy at CC or Best Buy...


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

conchyjoe7 said:


> a Crown XLS 602D rated to deliver 380 wpc (wink wink) into 8 ohms weighs a whopping 35.6 pounds includimg it's heaviest part: It's cooling fan, and my measly overpriced Parasound HCA-2200 mk II rated to deliver 250 wpc into 8 ohms weighs 60 pounds and does NOT have a tweaking loud fan.


A great deal of that weight difference is related to the fact that the Parasound does NOT have a fan. To cool itself and adhear to UL and THX standards, there are BEEFY heat sinks inside which are very heavy. Weight is not the only factor related to good performance. Although I tend to agree with your point of view (I too have a parasound amp and I opted for less power and tighter tolerances by going with the Halo line) good professional amps are BUILT for high power output, low noise etc..... The MX series in consideration here adhears to the same THX standards that your Parasound does, just for larger venues so noise on that amp should be moot. 

I'd be curious to see the results of a blind listening test between a couple of good pro/home amps and see the outcome as I've always wanted a stack of QSC's in my theater


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## conchyjoe7 (Aug 28, 2007)

Hey, I think we should all give up on our amps and go and buy Crowns and the like; but please please give me a VERY large treble attenuator especially if we're all going to run Klipsch with bright amps. As for the question regarding power and price here http://www.parasound.com/vintage/hca2200.php you will see that one of my amps will indeed deliver the power you so badly seek with a MUCH higher damping factor and with 90 amperes of peak current per channel...Now: Say what?! I'll stick with my clunky Parasounds...Oh, and personally I didn't say anything about cheapo receivers from BB and CC. With all due respect, if you haven't seen the size and weight of the power supply and torroidal transformer in your Parasound (or mine), I personally doubt you've ever owned one.:hide:
Cheers,
Konky.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2007)

conchyjoe7 said:


> Hey, I think we should all give up on our amps and go and buy Crowns and the like; but please please give me a VERY large treble attenuator especially if we're all going to run Klipsch with bright amps. As for the question regarding power and price here http://www.parasound.com/vintage/hca2200.php you will see that one of my amps will indeed deliver the power you so badly seek with a MUCH higher damping factor and with 90 amperes of peak current per channel...Now: Say what?! I'll stick with my clunky Parasounds...Oh, and personally I didn't say anything about cheapo receivers from BB and CC. With all due respect, if you haven't seen the size and weight of the power supply and torroidal transformer in your Parasound (or mine), I personally doubt you've ever owned one.:hide:
> Cheers,
> Konky.


Yikes! Who are you ripping a new one? I hope not me.

Parasound makes great amps, as do many others, but there are also plenty of great pro amps out there than can run with the home amps just as well. And not ALL pro amps are "bright". As I said before, if you choose the right amp for the right job, then you have nothing to worry about. It doesn't matter if it's a home amp or pro amp.


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

I recall hearing about a blind listening comparison of cheap and high end amps. There was no evidence that anyone could reliably pick which is which any better than if they were guessing randomly. I'd be quite curious to do a proper test like that with a large audiophile audience. Two amps that SHOULD be quite different, each track played 4 times with each amp playing at least once. Then you can do things like play one amp twice and see if people think it's the same amp. 

In my experience, when I know what I'm listening to, I have felt I could pick differences, but I find them quite subtle.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2007)

conchyjoe7 said:


> Hey, I think we should all give up on our amps and go and buy Crowns and the like; but please please give me a VERY large treble attenuator especially if we're all going to run Klipsch with bright amps. As for the question regarding power and price here http://www.parasound.com/vintage/hca2200.php you will see that one of my amps will indeed deliver the power you so badly seek with a MUCH higher damping factor and with 90 amperes of peak current per channel...Now: Say what?! I'll stick with my clunky Parasounds...Oh, and personally I didn't say anything about cheapo receivers from BB and CC. With all due respect, if you haven't seen the size and weight of the power supply and torroidal transformer in your Parasound (or mine), I personally doubt you've ever owned one.:hide:
> Cheers,
> Konky.


I hope that isn't directed twards me... Please don't think I am ignorant on this subject. Here is a picture of the most recent amplifier I have owned, it has a beefy power supply, and weighs almost twice as much as your Parasound HCA2200 (100+ pounds).... And I built it from scratch.... I know a thing or two about amplifiers. I also worked for Audioprism for 6 years hand building amplifiers such as the 200 pound set of 100 watt Class A Mana monoblocks. I have built many more amplifiers than you have owned.

Nobody is trying to say that PRO audio amplifiers are superior to high end home gear as far as sonics, but people are simply trying to state the merit for some application. And there is merit.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2007)

Weight has nothing to do with quality, period.

BTW, I notice that AudioPrism no long make amplifiers. Hmm... I wonder why. Maybe they finally figured out that sheer size and weight doesn't do a thing for quality and didn't sell well.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2007)

Anamorphic said:


> Weight has nothing to do with quality, period.
> 
> BTW, I notice that AudioPrism no long make amplifiers. Hmm... I wonder why. Maybe they finally figured out that sheer size and weight doesn't do a thing for quality and didn't sell well.



Boy, I can't tell if this is directed as another snide comment, if I am wrong, please disregaurd... If it is, ***? The one thing I have been stating since the beginning is that weight is not the only factor in amplifier performance.... 

BTW, Audioprism was bought out by Mark Levinson. At that time they were back-ordered over a year on many products when he (Mark Levinson) claimed backruptcy do to his other ventures and took Audioprism with him.... Another got big and then took a dump story like you see so much with audio...


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

Anamorphic said:


> Weight has nothing to do with quality, period.


If by that you mean that weight alone does not determine sound quality, then I'm sure no one here is going to disagree with you.

But if you mean that there is no relationship at all between sound quality and weight, then there are some serious flaws in that argument. Especially when the amp in question needs to output high power into a low impedance without a fan. In that case, the required heatsink and transformer would be heavy, and if we compare two amps of similar specs and design, yet one is much lighter than the other, we might be tempted to think the lighter amp isn't going to perform as well when pushed. Either that or the heavier amp is over-designed. Of course, it's often not that simple, and there are many ways to design an amp. You can't say that the heavier of two amps will sound better without knowing more about them both. But you can't say that weight has nothing to do with sound quality - even though weight doesn't determine or indicate sound quality, weight is a consequence of design decisions that are related to sound quality. 

It's quite likely that none of this is new to you, but what the ****, it's been a while since I got into internet forum ramblings about audio!


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

Woah sweet amps 95Honda! I really like that brushed metallic finish on the front.

conchyjoe7 - I see no need to stir the pot. Click the links and see my theater if you don't believe I own one. I would suggest you read through page 5 of this.


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

paulspencer said:


> But if you mean that there is no relationship at all between sound quality and weight, then there are some serious flaws in that argument. Especially when the amp in question needs to output high power into a low impedance without a fan. In that case, the required heatsink and transformer would be heavy, and if we compare two amps of similar specs and design, yet one is much lighter than the other, we might be tempted to think the lighter amp isn't going to perform as well when pushed. Either that or the heavier amp is over-designed.


Actually there are a few newer amps with digital topology that are fairly light but still put out tons of juice. Additionally, one of the easiest ways to make an amp lighter is to use a fan and less heat sinks - as in pro audio.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2007)

thxgoon said:


> Woah sweet amps 95Honda! I really like that brushed metallic finish on the front.


Thanks. It was the last amp I have built (my own design) and the best one yet. I stroke sanded (the "brushed metalic") every surface before having it anodized, even the inside looks like that... LOL... I really like serious hardware for the H/T system.... When people see it they don't believe it started out as plates of aluminum....


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2007)

conchyjoe7 said:


> I personally doubt you've ever owned one.:hide:
> Cheers,
> Konky.


You got me on that.

I've owned 3. I used one of them to demo a set of 2-ways I had built in 1997 at a PASS audiohpile meeting in Seattle, Wa. I remember A/B'ing that amp against an Aragon at that same meeting....

The other 2 were bought and sold over the years, I have always like those amplifiers....

And an HCA800II (Sp?) I bought brand new in 1995 for $400, I borrowed some of the money from my mom, LOL....

-Mike Edgar


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2007)

95Honda said:


> Boy, I can't tell if this is directed as another snide comment, if I am wrong, please disregaurd... If it is, ***? The one thing I have been stating since the beginning is that weight is not the only factor in amplifier performance....
> 
> BTW, Audioprism was bought out by Mark Levinson. At that time they were back-ordered over a year on many products when he (Mark Levinson) claimed backruptcy do to his other ventures and took Audioprism with him.... Another got big and then took a dump story like you see so much with audio...


No, it was not a snide comment. It was more like thinking out loud. As for Audioprism's history, I wouldn't know anything about it. My mistake on that one. But if those amplifiers were such a big hit, then why didn't they try starting production of them back up again? Just curious.

And I still stand by what I said about weight not meaning anything for quality. It depends on what power requirements you're going after. If you only need an amp that produces say 35W per channel, it doesn't matter if it's a home amp or pro amp, they are both going to be small and light, unless it is pure Class A.

Although, like what *thxgoon* said, digital amps are coming a long way these days and can even give good Class A solid-state amps and SE valve amps a run for their money. The "biggest" thing about these new digital amps is that they are (or can be) so much smaller and lighter than the traditional amps and provide all the power and sound quality the other amps can provide, or even better them.

That's all I was trying to say before, I just didn't go into great detail.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2007)

Anamorphic said:


> But if those amplifiers were such a big hit, then why didn't they try starting production of them back up again? Just curious.


When Levinson bought Audioprism, he bought the rights to all the electonic also, you may notice that the Vibration controls and antennas are still avalible though... But with him went the amps, and now nobody makes them.... And if anyone else made them again,,they would be sued...


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## conchyjoe7 (Aug 28, 2007)

Greetings to all:
For the record, I am not trying, nor am I at all interested in trying to "RIP" anyone a new one! My last thought and comment on this thread is this. We ALL seem to be thrilled with the equipment we have and I couldn't be happier that that is the case. I am a little amazed that someone that doesn't know me from the man in the moon describes himself as building etc. more amps blah blah blah than I've ever seen, heard of or owned...hardly fitting when in fact he has no clue whatsoever as to who I am, nor what I have owned or heard, but you would think that he would bear in mind that as the (retired) owner of 3 VERY large night clubs and 4 restaurants all of which I chose and oversaw the installation of equipment for and replaced over the years; I've heard far more than a few! I am however thrilled for him that he has such incredible capabilities in building amps and the time and patience required to do it well.
I couldn't agree more that pro amps if used for the right purpose and in the right environment do indeed have merit, it's just that IMHO that purpose is to drive "club" speakers made up (usually) of very large EV woofers, a large highly efficient EV horn and generic piezo electric tweeters in what (again usually) is a copy of a JBL or EV cabinet in a "club"...which is the correct environment. Those speakers are VERY efficient and sound in an empty room (in a word):Terrible! However, fill that room with hundreds of people and you have fairly good sound...plenty good for the louder is better drinking and dancing crowd, and as I have previously stated, it's a pretty much bullet proof system. FYI, we also used Bozak mixers and EQs, Technics SL 1200 mk II turntables and everything wired "balanced" XLR. This is the correct place for those amps (IMHO), doing what they were built to do and in that environment they have a LOT of merit...I wouldn't consider anything else in fact. 
As I've said, we ALL seem to be very happy with what we all have and I'm no different. I do however fervently believe (and it would not be possible to change my mind on this if your hearing is anywhere near normal), that anyone who owns and is here professing the fantastic, incredible, powerful, etc. etc. qualities of pro amps for critical music listening in a home environment based their purchase on one and only one criteriarice! That too is fine, but hey, don't just argue with me; send off and tell them what ripoffs they are to NAD, Parasound, Krell, Ayre, McIntosh, Cary, and hosts of other "high end" amp manufacturers who despite the availability of a plethora of pro amps at next to nothing prices are still doing just fine thank you very much. Of course since the pro amps sound so good and there's no point in buying a good high end amp, I guess we should extend the same attitude and reference to those who make high end speakers, or high end anything for that matter...Let's get rid of B&W, Aerial, Wilson Audio, DALI, Magico, Dynaudio, and 100s of other high end speaker makers as they too must all sound basically the same. Then, lets get rid of Lexus, BMW, Infiniti, Mercedes, Acura, Porsche, Audi (for the record, we drive Honda, BMW and Nissan) etc. etc. After all, we can all get from A to B in a 10 year old used Kia, and I'm waiting to hear from someone who has one of those who is definitely going to tell me his 150,000 mile Kia is as good as or better than a new Lexus 470...yep, uh huh!
You have to love subjectivity; it's what makes the world go round..:whistling:
Let's just all enjoy the music and films that we so preciously love...Listened to Jennifer Warnes "Famous Blue Raincoat" 20th Anniversary Edition, (if you already own it, the 20th Anni edition is still a MUST buy and hear) and saw "Happy Feet" last night in HD on DirecTV...beautiful, absolutely beautiful on both counts!
Cheers,
Konky.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2007)

LOL!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Guys... if I were reading this thread and trying to learn about using QSC amps for HT, the posts here on this page would serve no use to me.

Please remember where you are at... and if you have not read the zero tolerance forum rules, please do. We do actually enforce them, unlike other similar forums.

Thanks for understanding. I see no reason for this thread to remain open.


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