# Measure toe in - out



## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

Hi am trying to fine tune my system by toe in

What is the best way to do this e.g. one speaker at a time, then combined etc.

More toe in = not as much roll off in the high frequencies?

My system lacks high frequencies, once I move them it is hard to get back to where they were

Thanks in advance


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Specific results depend on the speaker. Generally, more toe-in results in better imaging at the expense of a wide soundstage. There's no right answer, because its personal (subjective) preference. Start with both speakers pointed straight ahead. Then rotate them toward each other an inch at a time. For each toe-in amount, play 2 or 3 demo songs (ones you're very familiar with), and listen for changes in instrument position, spacing, and size. Also listen for changes (usually shrinking) to the sound stage width, height, and depth. 

At the start of this process, you will most likely not like the sound. Somewhere during the process, you'll reach a toe-in point where the system sounds better to you, and then it will start sounding worse. When that happens, back off to the last toe-in position and experiment with smaller increments (1/2 inch) to either side. Then repeat with 1/4inch increments. Stop when you either reach sonic bliss, or run out of patience! :hissyfit: 

EDIT: As far as repeatability, mark the floor/carpet with duct tape along the speaker corners. It's very important to get the left and right aligned exactly the same. A cheap laser pointer is the best way to aim them. Get one with a flat surface so you can accurately place it on the speaker cabinet. As you toe-in. The laser dot will "approach" the LP. You can use something like a mic stand or modified broomstick handle as a target for the laser pointer. Just make sure the distance to each side of the LP is equal.


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Specific results depend on the speaker. Generally, more toe-in results in better imaging at the expense of a wide soundstage. There's no right answer, because its personal (subjective) preference. Start with both speakers pointed straight ahead. Then rotate them toward each other an inch at a time. For each toe-in amount, play 2 or 3 demo songs (ones you're very familiar with), and listen for changes in instrument position, spacing, and size. Also listen for changes (usually shrinking) to the sound stage width, height, and depth.
> 
> At the start of this process, you will most likely not like the sound. Somewhere during the process, you'll reach a toe-in point where the system sounds better to you, and then it will start sounding worse. When that happens, back off to the last toe-in position and experiment with smaller increments (1/2 inch) to either side. Then repeat with 1/4inch increments. Stop when you either reach sonic bliss, or run out of patience! :hissyfit:
> 
> EDIT: As far as repeatability, mark the floor/carpet with duct tape along the speaker corners. It's very important to get the left and right aligned exactly the same. A cheap laser pointer is the best way to aim them. Get one with a flat surface so you can accurately place it on the speaker cabinet. As you toe-in. The laser dot will "approach" the LP. You can use something like a mic stand or modified broomstick handle as a target for the laser pointer. Just make sure the distance to each side of the LP is equal.



Thanks for your reply

Do I measure with REW one speaker at a time? 

Does toe-in give more or less lift in the higher frequencies?

Thanks again


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## totalcomfort (Apr 12, 2014)

Keep in mind this is in my room. I started with the speaker the greatest distance pointed directly at my main LP and pointed the closest at the secondary LP. this had them crossing slightly in front of both seats. This was a good starting point,I only had to make a few minor adjustments to get it sounding good to me. Use a laser pointer and mark where it hits a wall with masking tape. If you use a long section of tape you can make notes on each one. Then when you get done it comes off easy and you know exactly where to aim the laser for your best sound.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Phillips said:


> Does toe-in give more or less lift in the higher frequencies? Thanks again


 more toe in, or closer to "on axis" usually provides more Treble response. Not exactly sure what I'd look for in measuring with REW but the simplest thing to do is start with zero toe, and move them in evenly. Listen, repeat. Listen,repeat. You should hear the center image start to solidify as you move them in more and more. I also like the laser pointer for consistency from L to R. An old school rule of thumb is set the "toe" so you can just barely see the inside wall of the speaker when seated in the LP. If you hold the laser pointer against the inside edge of the speaker, and rotate the speaker, point it at the back cushion of the seat. Try setting them so the laser hits about six inches on either side of where your head would be. The distance between your mains will affect how much toe you need also. Just experiment, and see what works. Normally, recordings will put the singer dead center so you'll want to be toed out enough for good soundstage without collapsing the center image. A center channel changes things a little. ...just some extra things to consider.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

You have received terrific advice already. I can only echo the fine advice you have been given and add my own little twists.


Symmetry is extremely important: equal distance from listener, equal distances from front wall (critical) and from side walls (where possible), equal setup angles relative to LP (listening position). Use a laser distance meter, as suggested. It doubles as pointer and measurer.
I like to start out wide and turn inward to try to find the sweet spot. In other words, start with some toe-in (relative to having them pointed straight at the back wall), but not pointed straight at the LP either (which would be a 0 "listening angle," or straight "on axis"); roughly split the difference. Angles are hard to estimate, so point (using laser against front baffle of speaker) at spots measured 20 inches left and right of the LP, measured along the top of your sofa, for instance.
Turn inward from there - more toe in, smaller listening angle.
Start out in big chunks and move quickly at first. then make finer checks with more measurements as you get closer. I start out working completely by sight with quick laser checks, listen for a minute or less to a fav imaging track, move and listen, and within three or four moves can get it close, then check measurements and move more carefully in smaller chunks and more listening / more tracks.
With most speakers, best soundstage and imaging (SS&I) involve some off-axis listening angle (15 to 30 degrees depending on design), which usually means some HF loss. The SS&I are harder to come by than flat frequency response (FR). FR can be corrected with EQ, Audyssey, Dirac Live, manual Parametric EQ, but SS&I have to be really good based on setup alone, so work on SS&I first and worry about FR later.
With REW you will see good FR matching and good phase tracking when you have hit the sweet spot. But SS&I is complex, FR and phase will look good when you have hit that spot but may look pretty good even when SS&I are not good because of other factors - reflections, other room factors, etc.

I have written a setup guide, here, which might help you (it is in need of updating), but the advice you have received is enough to get you going.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Hello again! Forgot to ask what kind of speakers you have. Most speakers benefit from toe-in!


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Ditto what AudiocRaver said. I have worked with him several times in extensive speaker positioning and testing projects and my experience is that he is one of the most skilled and knowledgeable people that I have ever known on the subject. And I have known many in the industry over several decades. We are all lucky to have him here and lucky to be able to learn from his experience.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Phillips said:


> Do I measure with REW one speaker at a time?


Yes.



> Does toe-in give more or less lift in the higher frequencies?


More toe-in gives better HF response (closer to "on-axis"), but give the priority to SS&I.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

If you get the sound stage to pop open, don't worry too much about the highs. You accomodate frequency response better than spatial information and will forget about the differnce in response. Also, if you can localize instruments better, even if the response is more muted, your attention is drawn to the sound and attention can be a powerful psycho-acoutical variable.


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