# Will new sub or new amp make the biggest difference?



## JohnnyK (Jun 26, 2010)

Hello Everyone,

I am often here at this site reading all of your fantastic advice, but until now I have never created a post. I am in need of some advice and your opinions would be greatly appreciated. I am debating over whether to purchase another new SVS PB-13 Ultra subwoofer or to buy a used Wyred 4 Sound MC-7 Amplifier (3 X500W, 4X250W). 

Which will make the biggest sonic improvement to my system? 

Currently I am using a Sony DA3000ES for my receiver in a 7.1 configuration with my two front speakers biamped using the zone 2 output. My 2 front speakers are version 2 (Beryllium Tweeter) Paradigm Signature S8 with the Signature C5 centre channel. My side surrounds are Paradigm Monitor 9v3 and my rear surrounds are Paradigm Monitor 3v3. I use an OPPO BD-83 as my universal player. I use the system for 80% movies and 20% music. It’s a large room where my listening area opens up to the right to a card playing seating area and a bar area.

If I get the new SVS PB-13 Ultra subwoofer I would daisy chain it to my other SVS PB-13 Ultra subwoofer. If I get the Wyred 4 Sound MC-7 Amplifier (3 X500W, 4X250W), I would still have to use my Sony DA3000ES as the brains of the system and hook up the new amp to the preouts. 

Eventually my dream is to get a new 9.2 processor (can’t decide on one yet) and two Wyred 4 Sound MC-7 Amplifier (3 X500W, 4X250W) and biamp all three front speaker, hook up some Height Channel speakers and then use the two extra channel speakers for a zone 2 application.

Sorry for such a long post, but I am trying to give you enough information so you can offer some of your expert advice. Thank you.

-Paul


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## rosco968 (Oct 19, 2006)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

Paul,

I had the same Sony in my system for a long time and it was a good unit. I ran 2 SVS plus series tubes with a pro amp in a large room and the sound was full.

I have since gone with separate processor/power amp set up and I must say that there has been a huge change in sound due to the improved steering of sound in the newer processor.

So my input would be to stick with the sub you have and get newer technology processing.

Just a thought.


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## JohnnyK (Jun 26, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

Thanks for your input Ryan, I appreciate your help. The only thing is, if I do get a new 9.2 separate processor, it won't do me any good until I also get a separate amplifier to go with it. (I don't want a receiver again, I want to move into separates.---I would LOVE to get a new processor and a new amplifier.) And right now, getting an amp and a processor at the same time is just not in the budget. So financially, it really just comes down to getting either the amp or the sub.

I would really appreciate some more input on my question. I'm just asking for your thoughts, ideas or opinions. Cheers!


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## rosco968 (Oct 19, 2006)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

Could you use the amps in the Sony with a new processor and limp through with just a 7.1 setup till you could pull the trigger on an amp?

I can't seem to get my head around a 9.2 setup. I just don't see how all the extra gear needed is worth it.
That being said, I have never heard one.


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## JohnnyK (Jun 26, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

I have to admit, I am a bit of a newbie at this and getting a new separate processor and amplifier would be my first entry into separates. I didn't even know you could do that? I am not sure how you get a new processor and hook it up to the amplifier section of my old sony receiver and get it all to work. (If you could tell me how to do that, I would be grateful. If it would take too long, then I'll just ask someone at my local A/V store.)

I haven't heard a 9.2 system either, but when I went from 5.1 to 7.1, I was very impressed. So, I figure going from 7.1 to (7.2 and then to) 9.2 would be equally impressive. I hope!


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## nholmes1 (Oct 7, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

Does your receiver have a multi-ch input? And a direct mode? You could try that, not guaranteed it will work properly as you will have 2 separate volume controls. But if the answer to those questions are yes you could theoretically use the pre-amp outputs of the processor, run it into the 7.1 analog inputs and then that should use the amps of the sony. If you were to do this I would set the sony at fixed volume, just below the clipping point and then use the volume control on the processor.

Again not guaranteeing that it will work or sound great but it could be an option.


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## JohnnyK (Jun 26, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

Yes, my receiver does have a multi-channel in but I use it with my Oppo-bd83 for SACD playback. And it does have a direct mode. I am not willing to take the chance of buying a new separate processor and then find out it doesn't really work. Then have it sit around until I can afford to get a separate amplifier for the whole system to mesh. I am still thinking between the new amplifier and the new subwoofer. (Unless, you guys are hinting at these other ways because I am on the wrong track... and I don't know it.) I really do appreciate the input as I am still a beginner at this and your ideas are all totally new to me. I am still learning.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

Excellent Speakers all around. I would add an Amplifier as the S8's sound their best with strong Amplification.
Adding an additional Subwoofer later would be excellent as well, but I would get an Amplifier first.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

Seems simple
1. you already have 1 sub (if you didn't that would be your choice)
2. the way your talking the next purchase you Really want is a new processor 
3. The sony cannot easily accept a new processor attached to it but it can easily accept an amp via preouts.
4. your Dream is to have 2 Wyred amps

Buy the Wyred amp, your half way to a dream and have cleaner more powerful amplification for your Paradigms which they will appreciate (use it as 3 way for the front three). use your Sony for the 4 surrounds for now until you can afford you new processor and the other Wyred.


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## JohnnyK (Jun 26, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply. This is a fun hobby that interests a great bunch of people!


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

I'd definately add an amp to the S8's.

That said, why not grab an Emotiva or Yammy P-series, save $4,500 and spend that on your second sub?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

I would go for the Amp you will be amazed at the sonic improvment you will gain, especially to your fronts which beg for power, they'll love love every watt you throw at them.:T


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## JohnnyK (Jun 26, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

Thank you for posting a reply. What Emotiva amp would you suggest? I am dying to get an XPR-7 when available but it will not fit in my rack, it's a beast! Is a couple of XPA-5's enough? It would supply 200w of power to my 7.1 speakers and then I could also biamp the FL, FR and C. I have been thinking about that as well. What do you think?


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## rosco968 (Oct 19, 2006)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

I have an xpa-5 and love it. Not familiar with your speakers sensitivity, but it will be a huge step up from the Sony. I can't believe how cool it runs.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

Well I thought you had you heart set on Wyrd or I would have suggested the Emo also..


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

The XPA 5's will bring your speakers to life that is for sure, i had one awhile back and couldn't believe the improvemnt in sound quality. I think you would be hard pressed to find a better deal for power to price ratio on new products. I'm awaiting the the big 7 channel, i'm gonna make room for it.:T


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## JohnnyK (Jun 26, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

I just figured that the Wyred 4 Sound amp had a crazy amount of power (500wX3, 250wX4) and would easily power anything. I am not sure how much power is enough to easily drive my Paradigm S8s to their full potential and I simply thought that with the Wyred amp, I wouldn't have to worry.

Should I maybe just get a couple of Emotiva XPA-5s (so I can go 7.1 with a biamp to the 3 front channels) and spend the larger amount of money on an excellent processor? Emotiva gets great reviews and I'm not at all hesitant to buy from them, but the question remains is 200w/channel enough? (Remember I've only ever owned that little Sony receiver, so I have very little experience to judge.)


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

The S8's are certainly power hungry but i know you will hear an astounding differance using the Emotiva's. Maybe go for an XPA 2 for the fronts and do the rest of your getup with the XPA 5. Otherwise if you have the cash go for the Wyerd being that they are very powerful. IMO i think you'll be more then impressed with the Emotiva's. Also you have a 30 day money back gaurantee.:T


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## JohnnyK (Jun 26, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

I have the opportunity to purchase a used, but beautiful condition, Wyred 4 Sound (500wX3, 250wX4) for $2700, all in. Or...you're right, I go for the Emotiva and spend the extra $ some where else. Do you think the price on the Wyred is too good to pass up? I'm confused.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

I don't see the amp your speaking of on there site. Lets just say if it's the one i think it is then you are getting somewhere in the range of $1000 dollers off, i don't know anything about wyerd's reputation but some questions to ask would be. How old is it? What were it's uses and under what conditions was it in (smoke, pets, etc.)?


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## JohnnyK (Jun 26, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

Sorry, I didn't give you enough information. The new amp from Wyred is $4295.00 US. I live up here in Canada and I never see them in the used market, and now I have a chance to buy one for $2700 CAD, all in. So that saves me taxes, shipping, brokerage fees etc,. And I know the amp is in excellent condition and was well taken care of when used by the original owner. For me, $2700 is a lot to spend, but I am also thinking that it is probably my only opportunity to own one of these because of the discount. Getting my wife to agree to the $2700 was a monumental effort. What do you think?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

I'd go for it as long as you trust that it was well taken care of and in good shape:T. I can't wait to be able to get my hands on something so powerful, that is quite a deal. If you go that route be sure to let us know yor opinions and if you have anymore questions fire away.:T


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## JohnnyK (Jun 26, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

Thank you for all your help and all your ideas. This made my first post here a pleasure. At some sites there is such a clique that my first post was a disaster and I have never ever returned to their site. The Shack is where it's at! You guys are great!


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

It's been a pleasure helping you out. Your right the HTS is where it is at (not to toot our own horn) everyone on here is there for any question you may have and always good discussion. Take care.:T


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*



bambino said:


> The S8's are certainly power hungry but i know you will hear an astounding differance using the Emotiva's. Maybe go for an XPA 2 for the fronts and do the rest of your getup with the XPA 5.


 Agreed, but make it an XPA-3. They are on sale, and you can power LCR off a single amp.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*



JerryLove said:


> Agreed, but make it an XPA-3. They are on sale, and you can power LCR off a single amp.


Good call on that one Jerry, i forgot about the Halloween sale.:T


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## rosco968 (Oct 19, 2006)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

If you get the Wyred amp you are going to have to run a dedicated electrical circuit to it. That thing draws like 40 amps on its own. You better figure that cost in there as well.


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## merc (Oct 3, 2009)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

Coming in late but agree that the amp is the way to go right now.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

There is a Wyred 4 for sale on canuckaudiomart in Kingston Ontario for 2900 if you want that second one..

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/deta..._cube_7_channel_power_amp__trades_considered/


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

I agree, even "just" one XPA-5 for surrounds and an XPA-3 for fronts is _far more _power than anyone would ever need unless they're running huge electrostatics at orchestral reference volumes full range or something IMO. 

Honestly even the cheapo UPA-7 is a massive amount of power for most peoples' purposes. A UPA-7 and a Marantz AV7005 is all anyone with 89db / 2.83 v / m sensitivity, 8 ohm speakers should really ever need... i mean if Gene over at audioholics can get his monstrous and power hungry 91dB / 2.83 V / m T30-LSEs with ~2 ohm impedance dips to reference levels in a huge 6000 cu ft room with this amp and only some loss of control at ultra high volumes, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to....The lowest impedance dip of the S8 is 3.57 ohms, which that amp is perfectly stable under, not the type of current that 2 ohm dips would ask for at high SPL. The thing pumps 140 watts into 2-channels /8 ohms and just short of doubles up at 238 watts into 2-channels / 4 ohms, plus is rated at 125 wpc all channels driven. On a 120v / 20a line he couldn't even get the full current draw of it into the all channels driven, so I always find it funny when people are spending massive amounts of money on 300 x 7 HT amps! The S8 is definitely a current hungry speaker despite its 8 ohm rating, but anything officially stated as being stable down to 4 ohms will be perfectly fine with it - this isn't an extreme case. The sony won't, and I'm sure it doesn't sound great at all with the speakers. But a UPA-7? It'll give you all you'll ever need especially if crossed with a sub at 60 or 80hz.

The XPA series are worth it simply because they're such a great deal mind you and there's always a certain sense of "hehehe i have more power than I'll ever need" from having more power than you'll ever need. I'm just saying, if you went and bought a UPA-7 and a marantz AV7005, the amount of improvement you would get from anything higher end than that would be subtle at best - the type you'd have to strain to hear. I'm going to get an XPA-3 because my 100wpc x 2, ~65wpc x 7 SR6003 receiver can handle the four rear channels really well and it would be a waste of the amp, and i can't afford a dedicated pre-pro. If i had a dedicated pre pro i'd have no qualms about the UPA-7. Then again, even the XPA-3 will likely be a pointless purchase for me. I'm probably just getting it for the sake of getting it. In your case you're going from a Sony receiver, in which case I say go for it! Make sure to get a nice pre pro though, the sony receiver would not have the pre-out voltage, signal to noise ration, channel crosstalk, DAP, room management of a quality pre-pro. I think you've already figured out my recommendation on the prepro, although i'd personally also be willing to take the gamble and pick up a UMC-1 and see if I run into any of the firmware issues other people do and if so, just return it; if not, enjoy an excellent pre pro.

The only reason I'd consider a higher end amp is 

A) for the stereo separation of mono blocks, which may be negligible but nice to imagine
B) If I'm running some poorly designed speakers like certain axiom or B&Ws with ridiculously low impedance dips, or electrostatics with their ridiculously awful sensitivity.
C) "I'm loaded and I can". Even then I'd go with the seymour AV 10001 or marantz reference monoblocks over a wyred4sound 

Otherwise all you're paying is for the way it looks on your rack... since hi end amps like the wyred for sound are a waste of money. Class D is nice though, and I can understand its value in saving energy, but I'm under the impression you're expecting it to SOUND better....

The SVS sub OTOH is nice but two is always going to give you better in room response and more output... I'd definitely also invest in bass EQ hardware like a BFD and room treatments and running a whole bunch of dedicated circuits...

One More Thing:

Re: Bi Amping. Unless you're opening up the cabinet, tearing apart the crossover, and using your own active crossover, there's virtually no benefit to passively bi-amping an 8 ohm speaker - all that extra "reserve" power simply won't even be used and you'd probably be introducing distortion. Your speakers would likely be driven into audible compression before you run out of power with 200 wpc. There's speakers meant to be bi amped like the Salk HT3a, Focal SM11, and Linkwitz Orion, and there's speakers that have an extra pair of binding posts to make people think they're meant to be bi amped. The S8s are the latter. They're not bad speakers, but their design only needs single, quality amplification.


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## merc (Oct 3, 2009)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*

As in the olden days, can't disagree with Grant in this case... however, as he also mentions, adding a second sub has its' own problems and I'd like to see your room before you add a sub rather than optomize the first sub with EQ and room treatments.
How big is your room and are you finding your single sub inadequate at your seating area?


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*



merc said:


> As in the olden days, can't disagree with Grant in this case... however, as he also mentions, adding a second sub has its' own problems and I'd like to see your room before you add a sub rather than optomize the first sub with EQ and room treatments.
> How big is your room and are you finding your single sub inadequate at your seating area?



Problems? Er, I meant that adding a second sub is completely beneficial... it cleans up room response as long as you integrate levels /placement properly and they're the same subwoofer.


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## merc (Oct 3, 2009)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*



GranteedEV said:


> Problems? Er, I meant that adding a second sub is completely beneficial... it cleans up room response as long as you integrate levels /placement properly and they're the same subwoofer.


hehe.... but don't you need to know his room first to determine his benefit?


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

*Re: My First Post: Asking for your Advice*



merc said:


> hehe.... but don't you need to know his room first to determine his benefit?


No. Even if his room's smaller than a pair of PB13Us would be designed for, you can always run the sub gain low to get the right overall output.

Unless you've got some awesome dome shaped room or something, you're probably going to have a bass null or three from a single sub. EQ won't help those nulls. Placement might help it at the "sweet spot" but just recreate it at another spot. One sub can work out nicely, but two will always work out better IMO if integrated properly. By that I mean probably on opposite ends of the room, near the center of the rear and front walls and a bit out from from them facing each other or something.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

It sounds like you have the funds to do both (if you choose your components wisely)... and both are going to make a pretty significant difference in your overall enjoyment. 

I would look at the Emotiva UMC-1 with an XPA-5 at a total of $1513 shipped (with the $100 off applied)... then a PB13-Ultra at either $1898 or $1998 shipped, depending on the finish. You are still less that the price of a new Wyred 4 Sound amp.

It is probable that you will see an improvement in your overall response if you can get that additional PB13 positioned in the room in the right location. Experiment... especially placing one in front and one in back, which has worked well for several people, including myself in two different rooms - vastly different in size too.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

I thought the UMC-1 was still "buggish"


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

From what I have read... they are minor if any... and they just recently released new firmware. It certainly would not stop me from buying one. I think I have had a bug or two with nearly every receiver or processor I have ever purchased.


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## nholmes1 (Oct 7, 2010)

I have one that I have been testing and I would have to say at the cost it is definitely worth the small few bugs I have been able to find, is it perfect? No but its more than adequate for most people. I was able to test first with older firmware and then newer firmware and they did resolve quite a few bugs, there are some new ones too but they all seem to be pretty simple code fixes.

I think you would get more from doing the emotiva setup and a new sub than the wyre amp in regards to return on investment and improvement on sound.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Keep in mind that the internet (or a certain site which remains nameless) blows everything out of proportion. The same internet (or a certain site which remains nameless) that made the marantz SRx004 series sound like every single receiver was having a pop of death issue where a month after you buy it it's going to explode underneath your TV.

Maybe the UMC-1 has some firmware issues that yet need to be kinked out (although nothing like when it first came out). Regardless, emotiva's been so liberal and gracious with returns and support on that thing it's not even funny. They even went and extended their 30 day return policy for an indefinite period until a new firmware came out or something along those lines. As I said earlier in this thread, it's a "gamble" I'd be willing to take if it were in my budget but unfortunately it ain't. On the plus side you'd get an excellent piece of hardware that's still getting firmware updates.

Is it a bit unfortunate that they didn't perfect the UMC-1's compatibility and software before they released it? Sure. But it happens, especially for a company with such a small staff as Emotiva. Far bigger companies have come out and totally discredited criticisms and bugs. It's especially tough with a pre processor where you're coming out with a new product every 2 years with new features that must be implimented. Look at Theta Digital.. they still haven't managed to make the move to HDMI!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

The OPPO Blu-ray was far from perfect when it was released and has had quite a few updates. Yet, it is one of the most respected Blu-ray players on the market.

At any rate... the Emotiva setup with the extra PB13 is an extremely viable option to consider.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

ok I have been sufficiently chastised...

However we still have the problem of the other 2 channels of the 7.1 system. The Emo 7 Channel amp drops 75watts in power which I don't think is what is wanted since the Wyred is 250watts.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

You add an XPA-3 or XPA-2 or 2 x UPA-1 and be done with it


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## JohnnyK (Jun 26, 2010)

Emo it is then! After I buy the amps I'll have a bit of money left over to spread around to some other gear. Cheers guys, and thanks for all your information, my head is still spinning!


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

JohnnyK said:


> Emo it is then! After I buy the amps I'll have a bit of money left over to spread around to some other gear. Cheers guys, and thanks for all your information, my head is still spinning!


Definately a good choice.:T


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

If going Emotiva, you might want to go with an XPA-2 or XPA-1's to drive the S8's. While the XPA-5 is a fantastic value and huge upgrade over the Sony, the S8's really would benefit from the added current of the XPA-1 or XPA-2.

Compared to the XPA-5, the XPA-2 uses the same Power Transformer (1.2kVA) while just powering 2 channels and has higher levels of Capacitance. The XPA-1 uses the same 1.2 kVA Toroidal Transformer for 1 Channel and much higher levels of Capacitance.

With almost any other Speaker, I would call it a day with the XPA-5, but the S8 is an incredible Speaker that really would benefit from the added current. 
Cheers,
JJ


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