# Avr for my 7.2 theater room



## game514 (Jul 24, 2012)

I purchased 
2 Martin Logan motion 12s for fronts 
4 Martin Logan motion 10s for sides and rears
And 2 Martin logan dynamo 500s for my subs


I have a 20x14 room that is going to be complete in a month or two. 

This will be my first set of good audio equipment so on even know what to expect they are still in the box.

I have been trying to read as much a I can about avrs.

I know new equipment comes out all the time and looking to spend under 1400 on a avr . 

People are saying go with a denon 4311 .

One person says go with a pioneer sc-65

Another says go with a pioneer vsx model because after calibration I would be suprised.

These price ranges are all over.

I see pioneer sc-63 and 61 for almost 600 less in price. Is there that much of a difference that is totally needed and would wow me to spend the extra money?

Thanks for your help


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

The Denon 4311 is an excellent choice. I have last year's anniversary edition of it and it performs very, very well. I think it can be had within your price range if you shop carefully. Try Electronics Expo. (Call for best pricing.)

Accessories 4 Less usually has refurbished 4311s, but they are currently sold out:
http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...-Channel-Network-Home-Theater-Receiver/1.html

You may wish to contact them to see when more will be available. Nothing wrong with re-furb. I bought a re-furb Denon 3312 from them and it is in perfect condition.


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## game514 (Jul 24, 2012)

How does the pioneer sc-61 through sc-65 compare to the 4311


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

Denon is a 9.2 AVR (Pioneer SC-61 is 7.2) 
The power ratings are so close (140 vs. 125) that it doesn't really matter. 
Denon has Audyssey DSX surround processing (supports 11.2 ch.) Pioneer has "Advanced Auto MCACC."

Here is a link to Pioneer's website, and here is a link to the Denon.


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## game514 (Jul 24, 2012)

Well the thing is I don't know much about all the specs on paper. 

So in all honesty I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference in between the two if I had them hooked up.


I mean I know there is a difference in high end Avrs and cheap ones so I guess what's the medium mark where the difference becomes major then just the little extra perks


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## 4x12 (Jul 23, 2012)

Hey 514, No doubt, there’s a few differences between the Elites. Are those extra’s worth the cash? That’s for you to decide. You really need to ask yourself one thing "Do I need all the extra bells & whistles?" By that I mean two HDMI out's? could be useful if you have your plasma on the wall and use a pull down screen/projector, split the signal to both units. Do you need something 4K2K compatible, how many watts? Want something that can do 11.2, 9.2 or 7.2? THX certified or not etc... etc… etc… Different extra’s that help raise that price tag. 

I might be wrong here, but the Motion 12's are advertised as "8 ohm compatible" but it’s true impedance is 4 ohms correct? If that’s the case, I think they will greatly benefit from an amplifier that includes 4 ohms in their power rating specs (some AVR’s only have 6 & 8 Ohms). If you plan on using them for long listening sessions at high volume (movie or music) you could put a strain on your amp and could cause overheating. Once you figure out what you need, you need to trust your ears and if possible, check them out in person. This will also give you a chance see and audition other AVR's available within the budget. Other brands like ONKYO, Marantz... lots of choices! 

Now, here's a question for you, ever thought of going with separates? IMO, with the room size you have, you would benefit from separates. For example, my system consists of three Emotiva UPA-1 monoblocks for my front sound stage (center, front L & R) and the Emotiva UPA-5 (5 channel amp) for my surrounds. I've found that power is not the only advantage of going with separate amplification, things like lower noise floor, dedicated power source to each speaker helps with better detail and imaging, more headroom, unlike the AVR that’s doing everything + feeding 7 speakers you get a constant power source feeding your speakers, the extra detail is great for movie's. The detail that I'm getting now (vs. running 7 speakers off my Pioneer) gives more of the feeling that I'm right there. And that’s just for HT! Playing a SACD source (Floyds DSOTM) is a night and day difference. I just thought I’d put something else on the table for you to look into.
But here’s a quick example of what options are available, you can get the Pioneer Elite SC-61. Its MSRP is about $1100, If shopped right you could get that down to maybe $800/$900, then add a power source for your front sound stage. Something like the Emotiva XPA-3, the XPA-3 normally sells for $700 but it’s on sale at 10% off & you save on free shipping (USA only) right now. Going down this route allows you give your Logan’s the power they need to perform like they should AND enjoy the full experience of your listening session… and the Pioneer handles the all the surround duty. Another thing that’s cool with Emotiva is that you get to test the product in-house for 30days and if you don't like it, send it back for a refund! Only cost you shipping back and that aint much. You can't lose. And going this route might cost you $100-200 more than your initial budget. For me, I think its worth it.

BTW, I only mention Emotiva because many HT members here, including me, use them. IMO, they are very well built quality amps at a great price. There’s a lot of great amps out there for you to look into like Outlaw, Arcam, Moon Audio etc… but Emo's price range, quality, free shipping and 30day trial is hard to beat. 

Good luck with the purchase and I hope I gave you something new to look into… 
Joey.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I like the Denon 4311 idea. I would also consider the Sherwood/Newcastle R-972 which is available for $1200 off and even comes with free shipping and Piano Black End Caps from Accessories4less. Note, the 972 is a brand new or A-Stock AVR and comes with a 3 Year Manufacturers Warranty. Also, the Marantz SR6006 and SR7005 are both fantastic as well.
Cheers,
JJ


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## game514 (Jul 24, 2012)

Some recommended the marantz 7005 but at the same price you can have the denon 431-.

I don't need all the bells and whistles and different zones. 

That's why I'm having a hard time deciding a avr.

I can't seem to justify to spend over 1k on a avr in which I am not even going to use most of it's extra perks.

Will that 500 dollar avr sound almost the same as the 1k plus denon or marantz or will I be wowed at the difference


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## game514 (Jul 24, 2012)

It almost seems like a denon 3311 with a emotive 3 channel amp would be better then a denon 4311 by itself. I know the dual sub configuration comes into play but I don't need all the zones and other features on the 4311


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## 4x12 (Jul 23, 2012)

game514 said:


> It almost seems like a denon 3311 with a emotive 3 channel amp would be better then a denon 4311 by itself. I know the dual sub configuration comes into play but I don't need all the zones and other features on the 4311


Yeah, that would be a nice match... A friend of mine got the same combo the Emo XPA-3 & 3311 (with Axiom QS8 surrounds and Elemental Design subs) last summer and loves it. I thought the 3311 was discontinued and replaced with the 3313? If you can find one at a good price, grab it.


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## game514 (Jul 24, 2012)

After reading my motion speakers are not that hard to drive so has me me second guessing such a powerfully avr


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## 4x12 (Jul 23, 2012)

game514 said:


> After reading my motion speakers are not that hard to drive so has me second guessing such a powerfully avr


lol Dude, you sound like you have no idea where you want to go with this  

Some decent ideas/suggestions have been laid down for you here and in another thread. Some have also mentioned the separate route... So at this point, if you want to get proper piece of mind, 
contact Martin Logan directly. Go through a quick run down of what you have, what you plan on doing, is it 60% HT and 40% 2 channel music or 100% HT? running 7.1 or 5.1? Size of the room? any 
acoustic treatment? And ask them what you need/should get so you can get the best performance out of these speakers. They should tell you exactly what your speakers need to be properly 
driven. Then figure out if its AVR only or separates.

IMO, and this is just me thinking out loud, I find its a waste getting great speakers and not feed them a proper source to get the best out of your investment... makes no sense. And getting a better 
system now, means less upgrades in the future... :T

Joe.


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## game514 (Jul 24, 2012)

Appreciate your input but must hear Martin Logan and think esl and there top line. My motion series was made so that they are less power driven . Atleast this is what I'm told.

So I'm at the point of trying to figure out 3312 with a emotiva 3 way amp and sacrifice the 2 sub eq or just get the 4311 with no extra amp


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

game514 said:


> Appreciate your input but must hear Martin Logan and think esl and there top line. My motion series was made so that they are less power driven . Atleast this is what I'm told.
> 
> So I'm at the point of trying to figure out 3312 with a emotiva 3 way amp and sacrifice the 2 sub eq or just get the 4311 with no extra amp


I was just going to write something to that effect. And with good reason as for decades all ML offered was ESL's and is what made them who they are today. As a decade plus ESL Owner, I do have mixed feelings about ML's forays into more conventional designs. While I am glad that those who do not want or have the money for ESL's and compulsory Outboard Power Amplifiers get to experience ML Customer Service as it is excellent. I am sad that Jim Power has left however. Finally, ML is now owned by ShoreView who also owns Paradigm and many others. 

For decades, going to Kansas to see Gayle Sander's 100k Statement S2's at his home after the Factory Tour in Kansas was every ML Salesperson and ML geek's dream. Now the ML's like mine are made in Canada at the Paradigm Plant and the non ESL's are made in China. For so many years, ML meant Made in the USA and Kansas. It still kills me when they call themselves "The Great American Speaker Company" with not a single Speaker made here.


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## game514 (Jul 24, 2012)

Jungle jack what do you think of my idea


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I would spend a touch more than the XPA-3 and get the amazing Outlaw Model 7500. For around $1500, you get an Amplifier that is as powerful as many $5000 Amplifiers. In terms of Power Supply, it utterly trounces both the XPA-3 and XPA-5. The 7500 uses Dual 1.6 kVA Toroidal Transformers whereas the XPA-5 uses a single 1.2 kVA TT. The Model 7500 uses 150,000uf of Filter Capacitance to the 60,000uf of the XPA-5. The XPA-3 uses a 850VA Toroidal Transformer and 45,000uf of Filter Capacitance.

While certainly more expensive at $1599, this is the kind of Amplifier that you can own for decades without ever having to worry about having enough power to drive any Speaker out there. It is similar in that respect to when I purchased my Parasound HCA-2205AT, but the Outlaw an even larger Power Supply and costs $1000 less 10 Years later. The Outlaw has a stronger Power Supply than even the $5000 Parasound Halo A51.

If the Emotiva and Outlaw were compared side to side, due to the higher than usual amounts of Gain used in the Emotivas, it might appear that the XPA-5 is more powerful. However, when really pushing it, the difference in Power Reserves are not even close. 

I would find a fairly inexpensive AVR with Preamp Outputs and solid Feature Set and pair it with the Outlaw. As technology changes seemingly every year, it would allow you to keep up whilst by selling the AVR every few years and having an amazing base to build upon.
Cheers,
J


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## 4x12 (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree, the Outlaw is a bigger amp overall, but its $1600 + shipping! Thats 3 times the price of the XPA-3 at the moment including free shipping! And hes already second guessing the 3311 because it might have too much power, then the Outlaw would be overkill for him both price wise and power! 

I'd be seriously surprised if the XPA-3 doesnt keep him satisfied for many years too come. Everyone I know who owns the XPA-3 and all the reviews i've read only praise the unit. And i'm keeping his original budget in mind, the XPA-3/Denon combo pretty much suits what he needs while keeping the budget. The Emo amps are great units for the price. But if hes willing to add an extra $1500 + to his original budget, then that opens up other choices.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

While the XPA-3 is on sale for $629, the Outlaw is truly one of those Amplifiers that can just last and sound brilliant doing so. I certainly made it clear it is more expensive, but with him considering AVRs like the 4311, the price of the Outlaw does not seem out of line. While not quite 3 times the price, it does have over 4 times the Toroidal Transformers and almost 4 times the Capacitance. Again, it is a $1600 Amplifier that is often On Sale for $1500 that honestly competes with Amplifiers 4 times its price.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Also, my idea would be to spend even less on the AVR than proposed and get something like a TX-NR709 and not be too far off the original budget while having an amazing Power Amplifier.


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## game514 (Jul 24, 2012)

Thanks guys for the responses. 

I'm trying not to go over that 1500 budget because I still need a front projector and screen.

Don't forget I never owned any equipment like this before so this is my first setup. I bought a new home and am a huge movie fan so I figured since i watch so many movies it would be perfect to do this.

I don't think my speakers would be worth a 1500 dollar amp. If I has the high end Martin logins then yes. But my set is priced at a more affordable price so of course they are not like the higher ones.

I'm trying to get this 4311 for around 1400 out the door.

I see the new pioneer sc-65 is around the same price. Many thx certified installers recommend the pioneer newer models . but there are so many that love the denon as well

So as I stand it's either 4311 no amp 
Or 3311 with emotiva 3 channel
Or pioneer sc-65

Worked some more on the theater today. Looking inside my walls I think they used 16 guage or 18 for my prewire. 

Hopefully that's good enough


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## game514 (Jul 24, 2012)

What am i really sacrificing with going with a lower avr
What I need is something that will do 3d and have 4 hdmi inputs. 

Is the audassy in the lower models the sake besides the dual sub eq? 

Question is would that emotiva 3 channel make a difference then have dual sub eq


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

I would suggest going the route of separate Emotiva amplfier and pre-amp/processor. I wont rant about the quality, instead just read the reviews. You will get more and pay the same or less.


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## game514 (Jul 24, 2012)

Still haven't decided lol


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

I would definitely read the Reviews for the Emotiva SSP as there is certainly not a great deal of consensus about it. The XPA-3 would be a fine purchase. I suppose it boils down to what Speakers are being used, the size of the Room, and how loud you wish playback to be. Depending on the Speakers, it is no doubt possible to achieve Reference Levels with an AVR. Especially when a quality Subwoofer is used to handle all frequencies below 80hz.


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## game514 (Jul 24, 2012)

The size of the room is 20x17. 

These THX receivers have a reference level of 0 in which the movies are played at to achieve the best quality like a actual movie theater. 

I guess no real way to tell until I get a avr home and break in my speakers lol


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

You _could_ do this and this. Many will dislike this idea, but I absolutely love my UMC-1 and plan to use the 20% off coupon to get the XMC-1 after I get an Oppo BDP.

To be fair I must add a bit of disclosure: I am firmly planted in the "separates" camp. :wave:


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

wgmontgomery said:


> You _could_ do this and this. Many will dislike this idea, but I absolutely love my UMC-1 and plan to use the 20% off coupon to get the XMC-1 after I get an Oppo BDP.
> 
> To be fair I must add a bit of disclosure: I am firmly planted in the "separates" camp. :wave:


Hello,
I am a big fan of Outboard Amplification. And in various 2 Channel rigs, I have always used a Preamp and Power Amplifier. However, I have honestly never had a eureka moment when substituting an SSP for a quality AVR. And it is not for lack of trying as I have Demoed a Parasound Halo C1, several Lexicon SSP's, and even a Meridian and others. The Meridian did give me pause, but the juice was not worth the squeeze to me. There are just too many changes in technology for me to give it a great deal of merit. While all of my Power Amplifiers are around 8-10 years old, just imagine how dated an SSP from that time would be?

Onkyo was the first to finally introduce an SSP that did not cost multiples of what a comparable AVR costs. 
While still fairly expensive considering they are heavily based off whatever the upper level Onkyo/Integra AVR without an Amplification Stage , it did represent a major change. Finally you could get an SSP with THX Post Processing, Audyssey, etc without a major difference in price. While some might argue that it is the economies of scale that kept SSP pricing what it had been for so many years, I never understood why it took so many years for one of the Japanese Brands to do what Onkyo finally did.

The Emotiva certainly makes a great deal of sense. However, Audyssey MultEQ XT has been one of the most impressive innovations I have come across. In truth, if Denon had released an SSP based off their 4000 Series AVR's as had been rumored, I would have purchased it. With Onkyo, I did Demo a DTC-9.8 and it just did not make a compelling enough argument. In addition, I have something of a Cottage Industry going selling my HT hand me downs to various friends and family members where few if any have Power Amplifiers.
Cheers,
JJ


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

I can't disagree with room correction be being a tad...underwhelming in the UMC-1.  It works but _isn't_ great. The upcoming XMC-1 will have TACT TCS 3e, and-as I stated- I still think separates sound better than AVRs...especially for 2-channel.

Also, I just thought that I'd mention the combo as it _does_ make for a _great_ sounding system within the given budget.


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## game514 (Jul 24, 2012)

Ok stopped at a local av store today . Well not local but big and nice atleast. 

From what they say I would get more going with a 3311 or 3312 and a amp then a 4311.


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