# 16' x 23' Media Room converting into theater



## takumi

*15' x 22' Media Room converting into theater*

I will start by saying thank God for forums. This is probally going to be my second most exciting project of my life. I started buy buying a home theater magazine and did as much research as possible. Next i did a search on yahoo for a forum, i browsed through a couple till i found this one. Once is saw the layout of the forum and the number of posts I knew my search was over.

I have a 15' wide x 22' long x 11' celing. I guess i will make a list of questions specificly for my HT. i will also post pictures every step of the way. I would like to build a HT, magazine worthy. i just need to step in the right direction. hopefully my build will help other like me in this HT community.
Home Theater

15'x22'x11'
1st Row View 13'8"
2nd Row View 18'-19"
Projector mounted 18'
1. 2 rows 4 chairs each row Bello(need to order)
2. 120" x 51.1"/130.4" diagonal screen(need to order) 
3. Paradigm Studio 100 LR(need to order)
4. Paradigm Studio CC690(need to order)
5. Paradigm Studio ADP590 surrounds rears(need to order)
6. Paradigm Studio ADP590 surrounds sides(need to order)
7. SVS PB13-Ultra $1200(need to order)
8. Sony BDP-S550 blu-ray $400
9. Panasonic AE3000 projector $2500(need to order)
10. NAD T785 receiver $2900(need to order)
11. URC MX-6000 remote $1100(need to order)
12. URC/Lutron Dimmers$150ea.(need to order)


Game Room
Vizio 47" LCD 1080p
Sony receiver
Sony DVD
Sony DVD/VHS


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## bpape

Welcome to the forums. 

Looks like you have a very nice space to work with. The one thing I noticed is the chopped off corner on one side of the room. If that's on the 'side' instead of the front or back, you'll want to mirror it on the other side to maintain good symmetry left to right.

Bryan


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## takumi

bpape said:


> Welcome to the forums.
> 
> Looks like you have a very nice space to work with. The one thing I noticed is the chopped off corner on one side of the room. If that's on the 'side' instead of the front or back, you'll want to mirror it on the other side to maintain good symmetry left to right.
> 
> Bryan


i know its a real eye sore. i plan to do that asap. also i wanted to add a tray celing. your thoughts.


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> 1. Seating i was thinking about 2 rows 3 chairs each row


This calculator will help you with  Riser height 



> 2. 120" screen is this too big?


Calculator for  Viewing distance 



> 3b. Paradigm Seismic 12 Sub


I don't own this sub ... but I read a lot about SVS, HSU, Ed that you can also consider.



> 6. Onkyo's TX SR805 or Sony receiver $1000


If you have to decide between this two ... I say, Onkyo :yes:

Do you still have bare walls (just studs???) ... Don't forget to fill all cavities with insulation :yes:


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## takumi

what about integra? i think they are arround the same price.

the walls are up and painted. just need to add the matching slope. mabey lower the celing.
do you have a link for those other subs?


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> what about integra? i think they are arround the same price....


That's another option ... my suggestion is to compare their features and see which one has what you need (don't forget the TrueHD and DTS HD decoder) :yes:



> ...the walls are up and painted. just need to add the matching slope. mabey lower the celing


Please tell me that you filled the wall cavities with insulation ... if not, you'll have a resonance problem :yes:



> do you have a link for those other subs?...


Here you go  SVS Sound ; they're one of the sponsor of this forum ... and here is  HSU 

You can even get a complete 5.1 or 7.1 package from SVS ... I never heard Paradigm or SVS, so I can't tell you which one is better; but I read a lot of good things from members who got SVS packages ... specially the subs :yes:


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## bpape

Trey could certainly work. If you're up for it, you could mirror the angle on the other side with standard construction and then add a trey all around with just framing, absorption, and cloth and get some good broadband bass control out of the deal.

Bryan


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## takumi

your thoughts. im think about moving all of the theater room equiptment to my game room. also think about adding a Yamaha ysp-4000 sound projector for game room LCD, in place of a surround system.
























the media room is off to the right


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> .... im think about moving all of the theater room equiptment to my game room. also think about adding a Yamaha ysp-4000 sound projector for game room LCD, in place of a surround system.


My opinion:

1. Game Room has many open spaces that might cause accoustic problems ...

2. YSP 4000 - I don't think it will have a good frequency response, and doesn't include a sub, Right???

But at the end, you'll decide what is best for you ...:yes:

P.S.: Do this mean that you won't have a dedicated room for HT??? ...or is this a different 
project??? :dontknow:

EDIT: Just in case somebody want to take a look at  YSP 4000 Specifications


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## takumi

just want to know what would be a good sound system for the game room. the HT will have a full sound system
yes the game room is a diferent project.


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> just want to know what would be a good sound system for the game room. the HT will have a full sound system yes the game room is a diferent project.


In that case, the sound bar will be the easy way to go ... no wires to run, small and I'm sure you don't need the best FR to play games.

I've seen other sound bars from Polk, but I can't tell you which one is better ... :hide:


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## takumi

Back to busniess. maping out the seating location. in the pics below the back of the seats are at 12'. So the viewing will be between 11' and 12'. should be perfect for a 106" screen????



















this is the proposed first row the double seat gives more room on the sides aprox 2'6"

















Second row not sure yet but here is a thought or mabey two seats at both corners


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## bpape

Some of you probably get tired of me saying this but it's appropriate here.

PLEASE do not adjust seating position to fit a specific screen. That's backward. Put the seating where you'll have the best frequency response and surround effect and then select the appropriate screen size for that distance. 

Bryan


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## salvasol

bpape said:


> PLEASE do not adjust seating position to fit a specific screen. That's backward. Put the seating where you'll have the best frequency response and surround effect and then select the appropriate screen size for that distance. Bryan


This translated in numbers according to your first post (I have a 16' wide x 23' long x 14' celing) will be: 

14' from font wall or 9' from back wall :yes:

EDIT: In case that you're wondering how I got this numbers, there's a rule to calculate where to place the seats (is for a starting point) ...it says to place them 62% of the lenght of the room from front wall or 38% from back wall ... is called the 38% rule.


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## takumi

the seating position is aproximate. i will have + or - 18" to adjust seating for the best frequency response and surround effect.


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> This translated in numbers according to your first post (I have a 16' wide x 23' long x 14' celing) will be:
> 
> 14' from font wall or 9' from back wall :yes:
> 
> EDIT: In case that you're wondering how I got this numbers, there's a rule to calculate where to place the seats (is for a starting point) ...it says to place them 62% of the lenght of the room from front wall or 38% from back wall ... is called the 38% rule.


ok i re measured 15' wide x 21'8" long x 11' celing


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> ok i re measured 15' wide x 21'8" long x 11' celing


In that case start placing your seating at 8.5' from back wall and see how it sound ... if not just adjust as need it.

Do you have your speakers and AVR??? .... if not, maybe you can use wherever you have to test the placement :yes:


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## bpape

The placement in that general area will primarily impact frequency response around 300hz and below just FYI

Bryan


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## takumi

Im new to this. so for the rest of the weekend im going to visit some of the local A/V HT stores. this way i can get a better understanding.


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## takumi

I took a visit to Stereo East nice friendly atmosphere. they were willing to answer alot of Questions i had. the first media room setup in large showroom had a 1080p Epson projector, 110" screen in a room a little smaller than mine(14' x 18'). First impression i loved it i thought the screen was a little big, overall it was a little hard on my eyes. then i went to a room that had a sony 60 projector, all i can say is wow. the picture was so much sharper clearer almost 3d like. right now im going to go with the sony. but the projector will be the last thing i purchase(just in case sony comes out with a new model).

after looking at their media room setups and a dozen of novice questions. I found a solution to my seating arrangement, the second row will go all the way to the back wall 4 seats, 2 on one side of the double door and 2 on the other. that will leave the First row with maxium ajustment for the surrounds.

tomorrow i will check out some more shops, but I will probally do my busniess with Stereo East.


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## bpape

Please don't push ANY seats against the rear wall. That's the worst place for good bass and surround response.

Bryan


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## takumi

will a foot off the wall do?


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## Red Z

Hey, Plano neighbor. I am out of Dallas.

A couple of fairly local places you might want to take a look at are for ideas, advise, or equipment:

Home Theater speciality store (Modia) www.modia.com They have several stores in the surrounding Dallas area. The store I visited was in Arlington (located by the mall off Cooper) they primarily install entire Big-buck systems like Classe, and I think crown and crestron, but their showrooms are awesome and full of ideas. People are friendly and helpful.

Best Buy--some have Magnolia theater centers, equipment is sometimes reasonably priced. Arlington has a Magnolia center. I am not so thrilled with their installations--kind of expensive and you could probably install cheaper and better yourself.

There are a few other theater only stores in Dallas. Basic internet search with home theater and Dallas will bring them up. audioguydfw.com is out of Dallas and has allot of nice complete theater packages. Their websites and display offices show several examples of their work from start to finish. I used these for numerous ideas in my theater and the how to do it. 

Recently, I have been just shopping the brick and mortar stores to get a hands on feel for what equipment and features I like, and then purchase it on line (in some cases for half the price). Dallas is full of mid to high-end theater stores. I found a good deal on a Sony BDP-S350 at Best Buy--it was on sale and I had a coupon 249.00 total. 

A couple of places on-line that seem to always have that niffty-doo-dad that I didn't know even existed--but made my life easier were Parts-express.com and Abacus cables. These have Flatscreen TV mounts, cables, cable pass-throughs, ir blasting equipment, sub amps etc. Mostly pro installer (stuff that works nice) related stuff. 

Also, check the advertisers on this site. I saw some Onkyos here that were hard to beat the price of for what they offered. 

I am not sure about your seating, is it coming from a local store? Did you check Dallas theater seating? theaterseatinggallery.com is out of Cross Roads TX. They are fairly local and deliver. There is an advertiser here on this site with $435.00 for berkline motorized seats seemed decent--not sure about how much the shipping would cost. Same seats out of Dallas are $500.00 plus tax. 

Hope this helps


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## bpape

Do the best you can to get the rear row as far from the wall as possible while still leaving the first row in an optimal position and leaving yourself a walkway.

Bryan


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## takumi

this will be a big help thanks. I see alot ebay deals, what do you thing about those?


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## takumi

bpape said:


> Do the best you can to get the rear row as far from the wall as possible while still leaving the first row in an optimal position and leaving yourself a walkway.
> 
> Bryan


so you are saying do not split the rear row to the corners?


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## bpape

For what particularly?

Bryan


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## takumi

bpape said:


> For what particularly?
> 
> Bryan


split rear row
http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq84/rb26ina240/seatlocation1.jpg
un split rear row
http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq84/rb26ina240/seatlocation2.jpg


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## bpape

Splitting it is fine as long as you can keep the seats away from the walls. If you have to, then it is what it is. Being next to the side walls is just as bad as being close to the rear wall - bass buildup and bad surround presentation.

Bryan


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## takumi

Red Z said:


> I am not sure about your seating, is it coming from a local store? Did you check Dallas theater seating? theaterseatinggallery.com is out of Cross Roads TX. They are fairly local and deliver. There is an advertiser here on this site with $435.00 for berkline motorized seats seemed decent--not sure about how much the shipping would cost. Same seats out of Dallas are $500.00 plus tax.
> 
> Hope this helps


Im going to take a look at this place today. hopefully the sell black fabric non power HT seats. also looking for a single-dual-single design.

thanks


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## takumi

took a trip to the theater seating gallery, the sales guy not helpful, TSG showroom had plenty of 4 chair cofiguration were too wide for my setup. they only had one berkline on display. I will keep searching


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## takumi

Today Im starting on my DIY screen 54"x96". this will free up money for a better receiver.


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> split rear row ...un split rear row ...


Take a look at this thread pictures ... see what he did with the second row ( http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...slaughter-house-cinemas-project-thread-7.html) his room is about 13' x 25'... if you find out that double doors are a problem, try reversing them to open to the outside to have a better clearance between seats and doors :yes:

Will you be using a riser for your second row??? ...


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> Take a look at this thread pictures ... see what he did with the second row ( http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...slaughter-house-cinemas-project-thread-7.html) his room is about 13' x 25'... if you find out that double doors are a problem, try reversing them to open to the outside to have a better clearance between seats and doors :yes:
> 
> Will you be using a riser for your second row??? ...


The doors swing out already but how much clearence of walking space should i leave. There is a 12" riser but it needs to be extended. after looking at a bunch of HT's im thinking about making curved riser of course with curve seating.


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> The doors swing out already but how much clearence of walking space should i leave. There is a 12" riser but it needs to be extended. after looking at a bunch of HT's im thinking about making curved riser of course with curve seating.


That's excellent ...walking space of 24" I think it will be more than enough ...:yes:

That layout you're showing in the pictures looks good ... Is that using your planned seating positions??? ... it seems that you have a good clearance on the back (more than 24")...:yes:


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> That's excellent ...walking space of 24" I think it will be more than enough ...:yes:
> 
> That layout you're showing in the pictures looks good ... Is that using your planned seating positions??? ... it seems that you have a good clearance on the back (more than 24")...:yes:


That is the planned seating but im thinking about moving the rows back at least 19". right now i have 49" of walking space i figure 30" to allow for reclined seats.


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> That is the planned seating but im thinking about moving the rows back at least 19". right now i have 49" of walking space i figure 30" to allow for reclined seats.


:T

Have you planned where are you placing your equipment, DVD's, etc.???? ... Also, Do you have plans for a popcorn machine, cabinet to hold drinks, etc.??? ...That space looks promising :whistling:


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> :T
> 
> Have you planned where are you placing your equipment, DVD's, etc.???? ... Also, Do you have plans for a popcorn machine, cabinet to hold drinks, etc.??? ...That space looks promising :whistling:


yes there is a game room outside the doors. the game room/living room will have a pool table, popcorn machine,watercooler,bar,ect.. currently the game room has 2 sofa's, 2 end tables, 47" Vizio LCD, and a 72" media cabinet. I plan to use the Onyx 876 to control both the 47"Vizio and Sony projector


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## takumi

takumi said:


> yes there is a game room outside the doors. the game room/living room will have a pool table, popcorn machine,watercooler,bar,ect.. currently the game room has 2 sofa's, 2 end tables, 47" Vizio LCD, and a 72" media cabinet. I plan to use the Onyx 876 to control both the 47"Vizio and Sony projector


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## takumi

were can i get 3d blueprint software? what are u guys using?


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## akakillroy

takumi said:


> were can i get 3d blueprint software? what are u guys using?


You mean Google Sketchup?


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## takumi

carls64 said:


> You mean Google Sketchup?


I will check it out. thanks


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## takumi

110.5" x 47" vs. 96" x 54"
2.35:1 vs 16:9


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## akakillroy

takumi said:


> 110.5" x 47" vs. 96" x 54"
> 2.35:1 vs 16:9


My opinion would be go with a slightly larger screen 16:9 than you have, say a 120" or 134" if you can fit it. Then you can always "mask" the screen to fit the 2.35:1 if you find a movie that is wide screen, 16:9 enhanced, then you might regret doing the 2.35:1 IMO.

Are you planning on getting an anamorphic lens? If not then 2.35:1 you are going to get light spillage from the projector on the walls. Unless you cover the walls with some sort of light absorbing material.


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## takumi

carls64 said:


> My opinion would be go with a slightly larger screen 16:9 than you have, say a 120" or 134" if you can fit it. Then you can always "mask" the screen to fit the 2.35:1 if you find a movie that is wide screen, 16:9 enhanced, then you might regret doing the 2.35:1 IMO.
> 
> Are you planning on getting an anamorphic lens? If not then 2.35:1 you are going to get light spillage from the projector on the walls. Unless you cover the walls with some sort of light absorbing material.


for now i was not going to buy a screen, i am going to paint a 2.35:1 on the wall. I do plan to get a anamorphic lens, but i for now i could just mask the 2.35 screen.


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## takumi

carls64 said:


> My opinion would be go with a slightly larger screen 16:9 than you have, say a 120" or 134" if you can fit it. Then you can always "mask" the screen to fit the 2.35:1 if you find a movie that is wide screen, 16:9 enhanced, then you might regret doing the 2.35:1 IMO.
> 
> Are you planning on getting an anamorphic lens? If not then 2.35:1 you are going to get light spillage from the projector on the walls. Unless you cover the walls with some sort of light absorbing material.


Its done, my screen is now 120" x 51.1"/130.4" diagonal
I also moved the first row back to 13'8"(back of chair)


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## akakillroy

takumi said:


> Its done, my screen is now 120" x 51.1"/130.4" diagonal
> I also moved the first row back to 13'8"(back of chair)


I recently moved my 120" screen back 2 foot, and I am sitting (first row) about that close now, and so far after watching "some" material I like it better now that it is closer. I think the "recommended" viewing distance is just that, personal preference will always rule :yes: Based on my set up the recommended viewing distance was 15". I always seemed to think it was a bit far, then the 2nd row was 18 feet. Now that it is closer my 2nd row is now about 16 feet and the first row is 13 feet, BOY does the screen look bigger now :yay:

Keep us posted with pictures and your progress!


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## akakillroy

BTW this is what I used to figure viewing distance. It helps.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/projection-calculator-pro.cfm


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## takumi

Some new pictures, I need tips on building a riser.










my new sony 550 Blue ray



































monoprice has some good deals. 

















power and hdmi outlets for projector. wires run over to game room. that will be the home of the sony5400 or oykno 876 receiver. I used 24 gague 1.3a hdmi cables from monoprice. will i need to run any other wires from the projector to the receiver?


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## salvasol

> ...I need tips on building a riser....


Here you go ... take a look at this http://www.diy-home-theater-design.com/build-riser-platform.html

If you'll be building a 10" riser ... compare the price of a 2" x 10" and 2"x4" and 2" x 6" ...I did the same (used 2"x$" and 2"x6" instead of 2"x10") because it was cheaper :yes:


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## Red Z

takumi said:


> this will be a big help thanks. I see alot ebay deals, what do you thing about those?


I have bought quite a few "bargains" on ebay--not just A/V equipment, but everything else as well. I purchase name-brand (lifetime warranty) tools mainly. I prefer to purchase high-end electronics ($1000.00 and up) in a "new in box" condition--and only from an authorized dealer (ebay or not). There are too many rip-off people trying to make a buck everywhere, to include the scammers hiding behind cyber-walls on ebay. With ebay, only deal with someone with hundreds of positive feedbacks--and even then, you never really know. , I have hundreds of feedbacks--but I have never sold anything!! To some people, "brand-new" means anything from just bought it at the store, to my uncle had it first for 5 years--now its brand new to me. There is quite a bit of "new" stuff on ebay that could be faulty/defective store returns. If a seller states "no returns"--then do not bid more than what you consider the item to be worth minus if you were have to pay to get it fixed (if it does arrive broke). Read the seller's advertisement and terms very carefully. On expensive items, you could use escrow. With high-high dollar items (diamonds and such), you can have them sent to another 3rd party broker for you to see and verify before any money changes hands.

There are reputable (JVC, Harmon Kardin, etc.) factory representatives selling refurbs with warranties on ebay, but I do not like 30 and 90 day warranties on electrical products which have already demonstrated they have a propensity to break (they are being sold because they did break). The higher priced the component is, the less I care about trying to save a few bucks--In my eyes, the risk of loss has to be completely minimized for what I have to gain (translation--I if I could get a "new" $1500.00 receiver for $300.00-400.00 from a reputable dealer---I would jump on it). If it was from a guy with zero sales (still with the little crown over his head)--I would never even bid.

I have, however, used ebay in another way--for what not to buy--when twenty thousand sellers (usually the mass market, store returns, lot sellers) are all trying to unload the same brand/model of a product, chances are high that model is a lemon and you should not buy it. I learned this the hard way--I got burned. I bid and bought a craftsman weedwacker that numerous sellers were offering on ebay. The model was an extremely new 4 stroke one that had not been out for long. I remembered seeing it in the stores and liking the "no mixing gas" thing. Seemed like a great tool. As it turned out, the first batch of them had a design defect--a Sears customer could return it for a replacement and the broken ones were wholesaled in auction. An ebay seller bought lots of them, and listed them for sale as "like new"--and just forgot to mention in his add that they were all recalled. Hey, you want to buy a weedwacker--I have used it very little........yup.I got taken--no returns, as-is the model has been discontinued, non-economical to repair, and I lost $75.00...I get smarter everyday. If the deal is too good to be true, it probably is; and you're going to get screwed.

With that said, my wife just bought a Monster ALV 300 for $35.00 (w/ship $50.00). It was supposed to be "as new". It did arrive and it was as it was advertised (owner said he could not figure out how to program it). For us, this was a good buy--these things are close to $500.00 retail. I already had 4 of these and figured if it was trashed--at least I could use the omni link (over $100.00 by itself) and not loose any money. This one did turn out good.

I guess, best advice is buyer beware. I have purchased items from 1 cent ebooks to $20K diamond rings. To me, ebay is just another place to shop--there are some people (companies) I deal with all of the time. For them, ebay is the cheapest form of national advertising; for me, I get a good product from a reputable company that I did not know existed before.


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## Red Z

takumi said:


> Some new pictures, I need tips on building a riser.
> 
> Is your subfloor concrete or wood?
> 
> I am going to assume it is a concrete slab, as in TX that is most common for the ground floor. In that case, you are going to have to use Treated lumber touching the slab and install a contact barrier (like tar paper or 6mil plastic) only where the wood touches the concrete. I saw the drawings of the sample plan listed above, and I think I would do it differently. Concrete is almost guaranteed to not be straight. Building an entire straight wall like in that plan will be difficult to adjust to match the uneven floor/current stair blend-in. I would turn the 2x4s on their side (widest area horizontal) and build several small (wall like) joists running vertically (towards and away from your screen and door location) and connect them fore and aft with a stringer consisting of your new stair in the front and a nailed down plate on the old stair. Put several supports in the middle of each beam. Running joists horizontally allows you a wider surface area for contact and to power nail it to the concrete (each joist being just like the way the walls in your house were built). If you do construct this way, I would first screw all the short riser supporting studs to the long horizontal treated 2x4 that will be contacting the floor. Once they are all screwed in (only on the bottom), put the contact barrier under it an attach it to the concrete with an explosive power nailer using the appropriate charge and concrete nail (you can rent them at HD and see the selection of nails/charges). I use a Ramset with .22 caliber charges and the Green color code for treated lumber concrete attachment. The reason to only screw the risers on to the one side is so that the explosive nailer is held perfectly straight up and down (if the top 2x4 plate was installed, and as short as the risers are, the angle of the power nailer would be extremely difficult to not have a ricochet). After the bottom is nailed down, either screw or nail the top plate on to all of the previously installed riser studs. The top plate would be longer than the bottom. Each one would have to be individually fit on top of the existing stair. I would use construction adhesive, like PL200 on everything just to make sure it all stays together without rattles and movement, and especially on the top plate before you attach the plywood. For the top, you could just use regular wood glue between the two layers of non-overlapping joint plywood/OSB.
> 
> Now, if your theater it is upstairs, or on a wood floor, either way is possible--just do not pound nails!! Screw the entire assembly together. All of the heavy pounding on the floor will loosen or crack the sheetrock joints on the ceiling and walls below your theater. Screwing is much easier with small pieces anyway. I would not tear up the existing floor, but rather build this riser right on top of it. Also, for the new top floor, either two sheets of 1/2 plywood or a mix OSB/MDF would be fine (just make it about 1" thick). I would insulate the inside of the entire riser as it would be a big hollow resonnace chamber without it. Depending on how your house was originally built, installing this riser might be as simple as pulling off the original small stair and toe-kick, inserting a new floor joist about a foot and a half under the existing floor and screwing the new joist both to the existing floor joists from the side, and the old floor from the top, running these out to a common end joist (2 ea doubled 2x) instead of a single 2x as displayed in the above mentioned plans.


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## takumi

Red Z said:


> takumi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some new pictures, I need tips on building a riser.
> 
> Is your subfloor concrete or wood?
> 
> 
> Now, if your theater it is upstairs, or on a wood floor, either way is possible--just do not pound nails!! Screw the entire assembly together. All of the heavy pounding on the floor will loosen or crack the sheetrock joints on the ceiling and walls below your theater. Screwing is much easier with small pieces anyway. I would not tear up the existing floor, but rather build this riser right on top of it. Also, for the new top floor, either two sheets of 1/2 plywood or a mix OSB/MDF would be fine (just make it about 1" thick). I would insulate the inside of the entire riser as it would be a big hollow resonnace chamber without it. Depending on how your house was originally built, installing this riser might be as simple as pulling off the original small stair and toe-kick, inserting a new floor joist about a foot and a half under the existing floor and screwing the new joist both to the existing floor joists from the side, and the old floor from the top, running these out to a common end joist (2 ea doubled 2x) instead of a single 2x as displayed in the above mentioned plans.
> 
> 
> 
> its wood
Click to expand...


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## Red Z

Nice picture. From the small opening you created in the toe-kick board, it appears that all of the framing stops just behind the sheet-rock. If it is easy, (most builders use construction adhesive all over on stairs) I think you can just take off the small stair and insert a new joist side-by-side with the original. I am trying to estimate the size of the stairs, judging from the size of the base molding which is just over 3" with a slight floor stand-off, I think your stair framing is just under 4" and you could use two 2"x4"s in a double tiered fashion where the bottom one would be longer for the small step, and the top one would go back under the original floor. 

In the picture I see a gray color stuff--is that paint/glue/ or a concrete self-leveler? It kind of looks like a leveler used over uneven OSB. If it is a leveler, the floor is probably out of plumb where you are going to be working, in which case you might need to shim the new stair frame.


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## takumi

Red Z said:


> Nice picture. From the small opening you created in the toe-kick board, it appears that all of the framing stops just behind the sheet-rock. If it is easy, (most builders use construction adhesive all over on stairs) I think you can just take off the small stair and insert a new joist side-by-side with the original. I am trying to estimate the size of the stairs, judging from the size of the base molding which is just over 3" with a slight floor stand-off, I think your stair framing is just under 4" and you could use two 2"x4"s in a double tiered fashion where the bottom one would be longer for the small step, and the top one would go back under the original floor.
> 
> In the picture I see a gray color stuff--is that paint/glue/ or a concrete self-leveler? It kind of looks like a leveler used over uneven OSB. If it is a leveler, the floor is probably out of plumb where you are going to be working, in which case you might need to shim the new stair frame.


each stair is 6", should i use 12" x 2" x 15'. i only plan to have 28" of stair on either side.


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## takumi

I got quoted 1100 dollars to do another slant on the celing and the riser. 4 guys a day and 1/2 worth of labor

Is that a fair price?


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## bpape

Seems a bit high to me. Not sure what 4 guys would do quite honestly. I could see 2 guys, 1/2 day for framing and 1 guy 2 half days for drywall, tape, and mud.

Bryan


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## salvasol

bpape said:


> Seems a bit high to me. Not sure what 4 guys would do quite honestly. I could see 2 guys, 1/2 day for framing and 1 guy 2 half days for drywall, tape, and mud.
> 
> Bryan


I agree with Bryan ...and the $1100 doesn't include materials, Right???


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> I agree with Bryan ...and the $1100 doesn't include materials, Right???


yes it will include materials. it would be two guys on the riser and two guys on the sheet rock. i did not coun ter offer yet. when i do what should it be?


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## takumi

mabey i will do the riser, and let them do the ceiling. one side of the room is insulated the other is not


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> yes it will include materials. it would be two guys on the riser and two guys on the sheet rock. i did not coun ter offer yet. when i do what should it be?


I think two people is enough for the job (I build the riser alone in one day 9'x6'x11" with carpet and everything, instead of 2"x10" I used one 2"x4" and one 2"x6"...if they use just one piece it will be faster) ...so two people will take half day. 

I don't know about the prices in TX, let's assume $300 ...that leaves $800 for labor, assuming two days ...you can cut $400 for the two extra people you don't need.

Let's see what others suggest ...:yes:


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> mabey i will do the riser, and let them do the ceiling. one side of the room is insulated the other is not


I'm sure that the wall that has insulation is the exterior wall, Right???

Don't forget to add insulation to the riser to avoid resonance issues :yes: .. you can use the pink stuff or pillows :rubeyes: ...yes pillows, I remember one of the members build a riser and he found a good deal on pillows, so it was cheaper for him to use them instead of insulation ...:yes:


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> I'm sure that the wall that has insulation is the exterior wall, Right???
> 
> Don't forget to add insulation to the riser to avoid resonance issues :yes: .. you can use the pink stuff or pillows :rubeyes: ...yes pillows, I remember one of the members build a riser and he found a good deal on pillows, so it was cheaper for him to use them instead of insulation ...:yes:


yes the exterior wall is insulated. I will get the pink insulation for the riser.


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## bpape

Well, when I said that, I was reading your post and assuming the $1100 was just for the matching slant ceiling - not including the riser. If it's both and includes all the materials, that's not terribly out of line most likely

Bryan


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## takumi

My Wife says no to the $1100, im back to doing it myself. please help with material list


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> My Wife says no to the $1100, im back to doing it myself. please help with material list


Are you still building this way ...



> should i use 12" x 2" x 15'. i only plan to have 28" of stair on either side.


Why don't you leave 24" or 28" on each side ...so you'll have access to seat on both sides??? :yes:

What is the size of the riser??? ...


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> Are you still building this way ...
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you leave 24" or 28" on each side ...so you'll have access to seat on both sides??? :yes:
> 
> What is the size of the riser??? ...


I will leave 28" on each side. how should i start? 12" riser


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> I will leave 28" on each side. how should i start? 12" riser


This is a rough sketch ...:hide:









My suggestion is to use two 2"x6"x8' (or wherever the lengh is from stairs to edge of riser) instead of one 2"x12" x lengh ... it will be cheaper and easy to fit to existing stairs :yes:

For the inside of the riser you can use just one 2"x6x???, you need to make it 12" just on the perimeter.

You can space each stud every 24" (or you can follow the same width as the stairs).

I'll say for a 8'x12'x12" you need:

12 studs 2"x6"x8'
2 studs 2"x6"x10" (to fit to stairs)
2 studs 2"x6"x12"
3 sheets or particle board or MDF 4'x8' for a single layer, 6 sheets if you want double layer (I used particle board because it was cheaper :whistling

Let's see what others suggest ....:yes:


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## salvasol

I'm not sure if I already gave you this link ...http://www.diy-home-theater-design.com/build-riser-platform.html ... you can get all steps to build your riser :yes:

Here is some sketch


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> This is a rough sketch ...:hide:
> 
> View attachment 10509
> 
> 
> My suggestion is to use two 2"x6"x8' (or wherever the lengh is from stairs to edge of riser) instead of one 2"x12" x lengh ... it will be cheaper and easy to fit to existing stairs :yes:
> 
> For the inside of the riser you can use just one 2"x6x???, you need to make it 12" just on the perimeter.
> 
> You can space each stud every 24" (or you can follow the same width as the stairs).
> 
> I'll say for a 8'x12'x12" you need:
> 
> 12 studs 2"x6"x8'
> 2 studs 2"x6"x10" (to fit to stairs)
> 2 studs 2"x6"x12"
> 3 sheets or particle board or MDF 4'x8' for a single layer, 6 sheets if you want double layer (I used particle board because it was cheaper :whistling
> 
> Let's see what others suggest ....:yes:


does it matter if the beams are going the other way? the way the builder built the riser does not look correct.


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> does it matter if the beams are going the other way? the way the builder built the riser does not look correct.


No it doesn't matter ...what you're doing is extending that plattform :yes:


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## takumi

pictures of inside the existing riser.

















look no insulation no wonder the room sounds like a tin can.


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## salvasol

This is the way I see it ...









You can build it in three sections, the middle will be the new riser and the side an extension of the stairs you have.


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> This is the way I see it ...
> 
> View attachment 10513
> 
> 
> You can build it in three sections, the middle will be the new riser and the side an extension of the stairs you have.


Got it im on my way to home depot. or should i go to lowes?


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> Got it im on my way to home depot. or should i go to lowes?


Here in SoCal they have almost the same prices ...I'm not sure about TX :yes:


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## takumi

I was not up to doing the slant myself. I had a couple of guys frame it out so I could sheet rock it. thinking about putting in wall side surrounds on the slants.


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## salvasol

If you do it ... get the speakers that has the swivel tweeter and woofer, so you can move them to get the best sound :yes:


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## takumi

well i got some wood cut from home depot layed out, its a tight fit i may have to shave a little on some of the lengths.








should i take the plywood off the first step?








i would need 1/2" plywood


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## Space

Some things you may want to do is install more blocking in the framing. 12 inch center wouldn't be unheard of. If you know where your furniture is going to be placed on this platform maybe you could block that area with one block per leg area laid horizontal.

1/2" plywood is not designed to carry the per square inch pressure you may require. Also, any and all joints should have a block installed under the joint. If not, I can tell you it(the joint) will move if stepped directly on or if furniture is placed on it.

If a person wanted to, they could re build the little bit of framing already completed and notch or rip the joists so that they plane out with the existing.

Just my take on it.


Brien


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## Red Z

I would stay away from the large lumber (12" x 2") as the cost is outragous. The way the builder did the original riser with 2x4s is a fast/inexpensive option . 

Also, I saw mentioned to use particle board for the floor, I would use OSB instead (that is what your current floor is made from). OSB and plywood are load bearing where particle board is not. Particle board can be used over an OSB or plywood floor to get thickness correct. What ever you use, you are going to have to build the height of the framing so the new floor matches the original--and OSB comes in odd mm sizes instead of normal 1/2" or 5/8"


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## bpape

A combination of OSB and MDF is a good idea. Adding the MDF gives you the mass you need.

Bryan


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## takumi

this is my layout. if anyone sees any thing wrong please let me know. thanks


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## salvasol

Looks good to me ...:T

Just remember to place the stud on the second layer at 12" or 16".


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## Red Z

Good job. Is the frame attached to the floor or free-floating. I guess you have two choices to eliminate squeaks; either isolate it with a sound mat or pin/construction glue it to the floor. Leaving it free-floating could result in expansion/contraction causing squeaks when you walk on it.


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## Space

Good catch Jeff. If the builder has any 15# felt this too could be used to eliminate the rubbing of wood that creates squeaking. But construction glue is just as effective. With nailing or screwed in place


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## takumi

need 4 nice step lights


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> need 4 nice step lights


I found this website http://www.elights.com/steplights1.html

What about a rope light for the whole riser??? :huh: ...that's what I installed, but I used only once because I get enought light from TV :yes:


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> I found this website http://www.elights.com/steplights1.html
> 
> What about a rope light for the whole riser??? :huh: ...that's what I installed, but I used only once because I get enought light from TV :yes:


i will check out the site. not sure how a rope light will look, got any pics?


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## takumi

has anyone purchased from www.circuitown.com


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> i will check out the site. not sure how a rope light will look, got any pics?


I will take a couple tonight and post it tomorrow ....:T

After I posted the site I saw their prices ....$60 for one light :yikes:


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> I will take a couple tonight and post it tomorrow ....:T
> 
> After I posted the site I saw their prices ....$60 for one light :yikes:


i found this one for a little less
http://www.outdoorlightingandmore.com/Hinkley-Lighting-1546BZ-HD1169.html


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## takumi

sconces how many should i put in the room?


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## salvasol

Sorry ...I left the house in a hurry and forgot the pictures :hide:

About the sconces ...it will depend if you want to light the whole room or not, maybe a couple on each side will be fine (use a dimmer for better effects :yes

Another idea for the steps (tha's what I also use) ...get some of this  Night lights  ...just plug it to outlets and your done ...


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## takumi

Red Z said:


> Good job. Is the frame attached to the floor or free-floating. I guess you have two choices to eliminate squeaks; either isolate it with a sound mat or pin/construction glue it to the floor. Leaving it free-floating could result in expansion/contraction causing squeaks when you walk on it.


I was going to screw it to the beam in 20 locations. but i could add glue also


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## akakillroy

takumi said:


> need 4 nice step lights


Try wal-mart or Target, Lowes Home Depot they have plug in lights that look like step lights you may be able to incorporate them. The ones I have are just plugged into outlets, I am sure you could flush mount them into a outlet box or something they sure are a of a lot cheaper than those and they are LED to boot.


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> Looks good to me ...:T
> 
> Just remember to place the stud on the second layer at 12" or 16".


i will do the first and second layer 16". is glue necessary?


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> i will do the first and second layer 16". is glue necessary?


I didn't use any ...just nailed/screwed the wood :yes:


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> I didn't use any ...just nailed/screwed the wood :yes:


thanks
i will just screw each to the beam


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## takumi

some updates. i finished the electrical. now i need you guys help what cables/wires do i need to run to the riser for future use?


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## Red Z

takumi said:


> i will do the first and second layer 16". is glue necessary?


I prefer to use construction adhesive on everything--especially floors. Wood tends to move, bend, and twist with changing weather--more so here in Texas. Rarely do you find wood that will lay perfectly flat and straight and stay that way. Construction adhesive fills the slight irregularities and really bonds the matierals together creating a solid sounding floor. 

If your floor beams are not pinned down yet, slide a flat bar under the frame and using a calk gun, squirt a couple of tubes of PL200 construction adhesive (the brand I use) under each beam to the original subfloor. The adhesive is about $2.00 a tube at Home Depot. In lieu of that, the construction felt (tar paper) tip mentioned earlier would allow the pieces to float and keep it from squeaking. Where you are at now, I think it would be easier to just glue it down instead of pulling it out and sticking tar paper under it.

I saw your metal brackets you plan to secure it with, I believe they are Simpson Strong Ties. I am not firm believer in using these as they cause allot of movement. Unless you can hit a joist, your mounting them to 5/8" or 3/4 OSB--not very good for screw pull-out. In this type of mounting situation, it is easier for me to lay a short 2"x4" on the floor next to the beam, glue and screw it to the floor, and then screw the side of the beam into it. If I plan the lengths correct, I can hit a floor joist under the original subfloor. Using 2"x4"s saves you the 83 cents a bracket for the Simpson Strong Ties and I think it does a better job. 

As far as wiring in there....Are you considering Bass Shakers? If so, you might want to run some speaker wire up under where the seats will be located.


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> some updates. i finished the electrical. now i need you guys help what cables/wires do i need to run to the riser for future use?


I see that you already installed power outlets ...I can only think of speaker wire in case that you ever decide to install "Buttkickers" to your seats :huh:


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## takumi

Red Z said:


> I prefer to use construction adhesive on everything--especially floors. Wood tends to move, bend, and twist with changing weather--more so here in Texas. Rarely do you find wood that will lay perfectly flat and straight and stay that way. Construction adhesive fills the slight irregularities and really bonds the matierals together creating a solid sounding floor.
> 
> If your floor beams are not pinned down yet, slide a flat bar under the frame and using a calk gun, squirt a couple of tubes of PL200 construction adhesive (the brand I use) under each beam to the original subfloor. The adhesive is about $2.00 a tube at Home Depot. In lieu of that, the construction felt (tar paper) tip mentioned earlier would allow the pieces to float and keep it from squeaking. Where you are at now, I think it would be easier to just glue it down instead of pulling it out and sticking tar paper under it.
> 
> I saw your metal brackets you plan to secure it with, I believe they are Simpson Strong Ties. I am not firm believer in using these as they cause allot of movement. Unless you can hit a joist, your mounting them to 5/8" or 3/4 OSB--not very good for screw pull-out. In this type of mounting situation, it is easier for me to lay a short 2"x4" on the floor next to the beam, glue and screw it to the floor, and then screw the side of the beam into it. If I plan the lengths correct, I can hit a floor joist under the original subfloor. Using 2"x4"s saves you the 83 cents a bracket for the Simpson Strong Ties and I think it does a better job.
> 
> As far as wiring in there....Are you considering Bass Shakers? If so, you might want to run some speaker wire up under where the seats will be located.


I think i can slip some tar paper under spots and i will use glue if needed, thanks.


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> I see that you already installed power outlets ...I can only think of speaker wire in case that you ever decide to install "Buttkickers" to your seats :huh:


thanks. so i wont need any hdmi or xlr on the riser. now its time for the stage, how tall and how far out should it be?


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> ... so i wont need any hdmi or xlr on the riser...


If I recall correctly, you won't be using any game in that room, Right??? ...if you do, you can add the cable need to hook it up to the AVR . I don't see any use for XLR cable, first I though about RCA's or sub cables, but in case that you decide to add another sub to the room, you can do it trough the wall in the back, Right???



> ...how tall and how far out should it be?


Are you talking about the wires for the buttkickers??? ...here is some examples  Buttkickers  ...I'm using one LFE on each row (three seats each), so you can put enough inside the riser so when you pull it out it will be long enough to reach each row :yes:

For any wire/cable you decide to put inside the riser, just calculate enough lenght to reach the seat or table where it will be placed ...:huh:


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## takumi

Im about to buy the Onkyo 876 from crutchfield. any objections?


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> Im about to buy the Onkyo 876 from crutchfield. any objections?


Did you compared prices online??? (I always try to save some $$) :bigsmile:

I found this link http://reviews.cnet.com/av-receivers/onkyo-tx-sr876-black/4014-6466_7-33270781.html?tag=mncol;lst ...it shows Crutchfield $1200 , Newegg $1000 and Amazon $1018 (which you can get through the Shack electronics store) ...


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> Did you compared prices online??? (I always try to save some $$) :bigsmile:
> 
> I found this link http://reviews.cnet.com/av-receivers/onkyo-tx-sr876-black/4014-6466_7-33270781.html?tag=mncol;lst ...it shows Crutchfield $1200 , Newegg $1000 and Amazon $1018 (which you can get through the Shack electronics store) ...


ok im buying from new egg, thanks again. how come the onkyo 805 is more than the 806?


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> ok im buying from new egg, thanks again. how come the onkyo 805 is more than the 806?


:huh:

Sometimes after a product is discontinued is priced higher ...I bought this JBL Stadium speakers ($125ea on sale regular $250-275), you can still find them but they cost almost $300 :yes:


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## takumi

bpape said:


> Welcome to the forums.
> 
> Looks like you have a very nice space to work with. The one thing I noticed is the chopped off corner on one side of the room. If that's on the 'side' instead of the front or back, you'll want to mirror it on the other side to maintain good symmetry left to right.
> 
> Bryan


Is there any thing else needed acoustical, i added the slant. should i add slants in the front and rear, sofits, columns ect?


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## bpape

I wouldn't. Chopping off corners isn't a desirable. The only reason I recommended it was to maintain left to right symmetry. 

If you want the LOOK of the angles, you can build just angled frames, fill with broadband absorption, and then cover with cloth to allow them to function as bass absorbers around the wall/ceiling perimeter.

Bryan


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## takumi

bpape said:


> I wouldn't. Chopping off corners isn't a desirable. The only reason I recommended it was to maintain left to right symmetry.
> 
> If you want the LOOK of the angles, you can build just angled frames, fill with broadband absorption, and then cover with cloth to allow them to function as bass absorbers around the wall/ceiling perimeter.
> 
> Bryan


I guess its time for a crash course on acoustics, I will be reading the GIK web page for the next couple of days:bigsmile:


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## Space

There is no guarantee that the existing angle has insulation in it.

Only way to know for certain is to get in the attic and view this area. The angles are already different by the nature of the build. The existing angle has no sheetrock behind it as your added one does. So you have one that is sealed into the room(new one) and the other that is accessible from the entire attic area. High probability 

Hope this helps,

Brien


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## takumi

Space said:


> There is no guarantee that the existing angle has insulation in it.
> 
> Only way to know for certain is to get in the attic and view this area. The angles are already different by the nature of the build. The existing angle has no sheetrock behind it as your added one does. So you have one that is sealed into the room(new one) and the other that is accessible from the entire attic area. High probability
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Brien


i went up in the attic the slant goes with the roof line, it is insulated behind the sheet rock.


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> Did you compared prices online??? (I always try to save some $$) :bigsmile:
> 
> I found this link http://reviews.cnet.com/av-receivers/onkyo-tx-sr876-black/4014-6466_7-33270781.html?tag=mncol;lst ...it shows Crutchfield $1200 , Newegg $1000 and Amazon $1018 (which you can get through the Shack electronics store) ...


everyday i check the price, 876 keeps dropping. jr music world $899 free shipping, amazon.com $915 free ship.

not sure when to pull the trigger.


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## takumi

how about the NAD 775/785 the hardware is upgradeable. this would be a great step up from the onkyo 876/906

Modular Design
All the input circuitry is now contained on 5 easily removable plug-in cards, including digital audio and HDMI, component video, analog video, analog audio (2 channel and multi-channel). 

Although this construction process is more costly to implement, it offers the advantage of providing an upgrade path while greatly simplifying any needed servicing.


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## takumi

finally the vault is done, sheetrock guys stood me up so i had to put it up myself. the taper and texture guy did a great job. projector is ordered


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## bpape

Nice job. Hard to believe with the tough economic times that you can't get someone to follow through to do construction work.

Bryan


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## takumi

bpape said:


> Nice job. Hard to believe with the tough economic times that you can't get someone to follow through to do construction work.
> 
> Bryan


thanks, times are hard there are reports that people are crossing back over the border to mexico. i save a lot of money it cost less than 400 dollars to do the vault. a lot less than the 1100 dollar quote.


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## dradius

your room is looking good man. and that's awesome that you saved all that money doing the vault yourself and you're happy with the results. hope the rest goes well for you.


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## takumi

dradius said:


> your room is looking good man. and that's awesome that you saved all that money doing the vault yourself and you're happy with the results. hope the rest goes well for you.


thanks, i also went to the next size screen130" x 55.3", 140" dia

The Wife took over and bought the paint she wanted, now that the room is comming together, i cant get her out of it now. not sure if thats a good thing.


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## bpape

Nice. Take all the help you can get. Any time you can get the wife excited about the HT project, that's a good thing.

Bryan


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## salvasol

I agree with Bryan ...:yes:

Just be sure to let her know that the Boss (you) take the final decisions :whistling: :bigsmile:


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## takumi




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## takumi

Painted screen 140"









back wall needs another coat or 2


















ae3000u 20' plus throw


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## takumi

*paradigm cinema 330 and onkyo sub temporary upgrade*


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## takumi

a little upgrade goes a long way the paradigm cinema 330s sound amazing the clarity/detail is unreal. Hearing how on wall sound im switching from the studio 100/cc690/adp590 to Sig W5 on wall LCR/ADP 3.
Its time to work on the acoustics. looking at the GIK 244 or 242 to start or should i start with tri traps?


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## ssmorsi

Very nice...


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## salvasol

takumi said:


> Its time to work on the acoustics. looking at the GIK 244 or 242 to start or should i start with tri traps?


If you haven't done anything, I'll suggest you to start dealing with the first reflection points then deal with the bass :yes:

I'm not an expert ....I think to get suggestions from the experts you'll need to start a thread on the "Accoustic section" :whistling:


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## bpape

Both will be needed eventually. Which to do first depends on how the budget for the first round so we can address the most issues initially.

Bryan


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## bbr81

great set up.


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## takumi

bbr81 said:


> great set up.


thanks


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## takumi

ssmorsi said:


> Very nice...


thanks


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## takumi

salvasol said:


> If you haven't done anything, I'll suggest you to start dealing with the first reflection points then deal with the bass :yes:
> 
> I'm not an expert ....I think to get suggestions from the experts you'll need to start a thread on the "Accoustic section" :whistling:


sounds like a plan


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## takumi

bpape said:


> Both will be needed eventually. Which to do first depends on how the budget for the first round so we can address the most issues initially.
> 
> Bryan


only the tri traps in all 4 corners will take care of the bass? I have 4 niches in the room should i close them off? or should i put acoustic panels in the niches?


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## bpape

Tri's are the most efficent' use of space and dollars for the first round. There are other things that still need to be dealt with but those will give you the best bang for the buck up front.

Bryan


----------

