# Looking for some advice on Mains and Center



## JWUC (Aug 30, 2013)

So, I'm now getting into building some speakers and am looking for advice for Mains and a Center for a Living Room A/V system. Something with a little more punch than my current setup.

Last time I upgraded anything other than my processor was 10 years ago. 
Current Mains: Vienna Acoustics Mozart
Current Mains: Vienna Acoustics Maestro
Power: (3x) B&K Reference 220M
Use: >90% movies
Room Size: 17'Dx21'W (back has a door and pass-through to kitchen) (right side has stairs and entrance) 
Wood floor with area rugs and a plush couch. 
Listening distance is 10' from the TV
Mains are spaced 7'. Center channel is directly below TV. 


I'm pretty handy with DIY woodworking and electronics. If I don't know how to do something, I can learn. The main thing is that I lack audio measuring instruments. 

I was thinking about the Clearwave 4tse, Statements, or TQWT since those systems have "matching" center channels. However, I am concerned that these may be too much for the room and the front spacing between the mains, the front wall, and the entertainment center would definitely nullify any improvements in new speakers. 

Could anyone help me solve this puzzle? Thanks.


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## jeremy7 (Feb 7, 2008)

Hi Jason
I was immediately impressed by the speakers that you want to upgrade. I've never personally listened to the Vienna Mozart's or Maestro's, but having been an avid reader of Audiophile magazine and Hometheater magazine, I've read a few reviews, and I liked what I read. It would be a shame to spend time, effort, and money, and not be fully satisfied. 
While I don't think I can solve your puzzle, because so much has to do with personal taste... maybe collectively we and a few others on the forum can make some progress.
If I could ask a couple questions, I'd start out with, what do you mean exactly by "extra punch"? and are you currently using a sub? I've read that the Mozart's go pretty low, but a sub to fit your taste may give you the punch your looking for, especially if your listening to 90% movies

Jeremy


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## JWUC (Aug 30, 2013)

I am currently using a sub (Dayton UM15-22 with a 500W plate amp in a 3cuft sealed enclosure)

By extra punch I mean that the Mozarts (not the Mozart Grands) seem to strain and break up when presented with some action sequences. I do know that all the midrange drivers on them have pinhole pricks in them from the wife's cats. Though I don't know if that has caused sonic degradation.

Also, the Maestro is an MTM with the tweeter directly in between the midrange. It has a pretty bad screen-door effect. I found that out when we got a larger couch this year. 

Thanks for the assistance.


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

Hi Jason, 

Do you have a $ amount/budget that your working with ? Ive been using Morel woofers and the Dayton PT2C-8's in my 2 and 3 way designs and they just flat out kill with music and HT ....


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## jeremy7 (Feb 7, 2008)

Hey, that's a shame about the cat claws, wifes cat did the same to a pair of mine. Depending on the extent, it could definitely cause sonic degradation, but from what you describe, might not be what your hearing.
Anyway, you mentioned "upgrading your processor", so I'm assuming that your running separates for amplification? and the mains are crossed at 80 or so htz? 
As far as "nullifying any improvements", if you swapped out your mains with either the Clearwave 4tse or Statements, I can't imagine there would be any strain or break up at all with loud sequences. That to me is a major improvement, but not sure if that's what you meant.
I'm sure you already know this, but those are big speakers.. My wife would never let me put them in my living room 
Is there a particular TQWT your referring too? just out of curiosity


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## JWUC (Aug 30, 2013)

jeremy7 said:


> Hey, that's a shame about the cat claws, wifes cat did the same to a pair of mine.


Trust me, that cat's name was almost "stumpy" after I found out. addle:



jeremy7 said:


> Anyway, you mentioned "upgrading your processor", so I'm assuming that your running separates for amplification? and the mains are crossed at 80 or so htz?


I had an old B&K Reference 31 that died on me, so I got a Marantz AV7005. Each speaker is run by a B&K Reference 31 monoblock. I have the speakers set so the crossovers are about 90Hz.



jeremy7 said:


> Is there a particular TQWT your referring too? just out of curiosity


The TQWT MKIII.

This is really where I am in the dark about the DIY speakers. I know what I have, what's at box stores. However, if I do this, I want to do it right. Not just build a new set of boxes that cost a lot with no gain. 

As far as budget goes, it's in the air. I can see myself spending $2000ish on a really good set of speakers that last me a while.


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## jeremy7 (Feb 7, 2008)

Ok cool.
I agree 100% Do it once, do it right, and be happy you did it. Your on the right track by building an already proven design. Without sound measuring equipment, building something that sounds great the first time is very rare.
The TQWT MKIII I'm not familiar with, maybe someone else can chime in who knows. 
Off the top of my head I can suggest maybe the "Nat P's". These have had many great reviews and may be more cost effective. I think they might have the sound quality and dynamics your looking for, but I don't remember if a center was designed. I've been out of the loop for a while, but these were pretty popular last I checked.
Another good place to look would be http://www.zaphaudio.com/. This guy has very high end designs. I don't this most of his designs are as big as your looking for, but should be a few.
hope some of this helps


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## JWUC (Aug 30, 2013)

That's kinda what scares me about a lot of DIY. Each community seems to have their own cup of tea. 

I've been looking at
-troelsgravesen
-madisoundspeakerstore
-zaphaudio
-speakerdesignworks
-linkwitzlab
-partsexpress
-diysoundgroup
and...other forums. 

There's just sooo many to choose from. I guess what I'm looking for is some weeding out. (Can't use speaker X because your room is too small", "Can't use speaker y because it's too close to the front wall." etc... Just like the information from those that know a LOT more about the subject than I do.


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## jeremy7 (Feb 7, 2008)

Yes, picking out the best design for your room and taste is absolutely a daunting task. I personally don't have the knowledge to say what won't work per say in your room but hopefully before this thread dies someone else can help with that. There's many knowledgeable people on this forum, but maybe due to the holidays some aren't on their computers.
Another forum I like to read is diyaudio. Maybe post your dilemma on that site. Lots of enthusiastic folks there.
Best of luck if I don't hear from you
Jer


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

JWUC said:


> That's kinda what scares me about a lot of DIY. Each community seems to have their own cup of tea.
> 
> I've been looking at
> -troelsgravesen
> ...


Have you seen the Statements by JimHoltz? They are pretty amazing. I have a friend that has a set. 

http://speakerdesignworks.com/

there is another forum http://www.htguide.com where there is a large population that have built them. they sell the kit on meniscus.

I have been looking myself for a set and I am interested in the Khanspires... they are similar to the statements in size and budget. however they solve the too close to the front wall dilemma 

http://www.divine-audio.com/khanspire/

one more idea for you is the clearwave 4tse ... available as a kit with flat packs.


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## xtinkshun (May 6, 2011)

I was thinking about the Statements and Clearwave until I found these and read some reviews. These are almost the same as the Salk Audio speakers that sell between 2k & 4K. 
http://meniscusaudio.com/er18mtm-ribbon-pair-p-1323.html 

You can build with a dome or ribbon depending on your tastes and build a center to match. Cheaper than the other two offerings as well.

With your room size anything larger is really overkill and you probably wont be listening at ref. levels all the time. Also consider the size of the speaker, how they will fit and look, etc. I have heard the salk song towers and ht series. If these are close to that sound you will be very happy. They effortlessly filled the room without fatiguing the ears. I have heard smaller MTM monitors fill a room with a sub and sounded just as good as a coffin size speaker but looked more pleasing. Just something to think about. 
If your only looking for HT and playing loud and clear try http://www.diysoundgroup.com/ any of the fusion line will be fine. I built the Fusion Tempest and it fills a 
22 ft x 16ft room quite easily, plays very loud and clear. I prefer a different sound for music though. diysoundgroup offers flat packs and built xo as well. (not much left to diy accept glue and finish. lol The cheapest home theater option out there. I would choose my tempest over speakers costing $4k for HT only.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Those are pretty good speakers, I'm surprized you missing "punch." Where do you have them crossed over at? 

Before I replaced them I would measure your room with REW. All you need is a laptop and a mic. If you already have a LT, a good mic is not that much money compared to new speakers. My point being, if you can identify acoustic problems in your room. Correcting them would let your current set up shine. If you don't, I fear your room willl continue to cause problems with any speaker you get. If that makes sence.


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## JWUC (Aug 30, 2013)

I'll be verifying my x-overs as soon as the kid's superhero shows are over...I don't want to get lynched.


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## JWUC (Aug 30, 2013)

well, wife took it over when the kids went to bed. Figures. 

The more I look at it, the more I gravitate to the Statements. Just worry about them being too close to the wall.

Does anyone have experience with the Humble Homemade HiFi Concertos?
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Concerto.html


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Time is on your side. Always better to fully research the issue. It's what makes this hobby so much fun...as well as piece of mind when you do decide on new gear! :T

Some near field frequency sweeps would identify any speaker issues.


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## JWUC (Aug 30, 2013)

well, now that the family is not using the system, saw that the Marantz was set up to use the Front L and R as large speakers, receiving full frequency. The others were set up to crossover at 40. 

So, I ran Audessey again and then changed the crossovers for all speakers to 80. We'll see how this turns out. We Were Soldiers or Blade tonight would not get me any brownie points. :laugh:


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

I was thinking in the back of my mind that was a possible set up issue. I bet they sound much better tonight.


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## Snappy (Apr 24, 2009)

It has been a long time since I heard them but also surprised you are not happy with the Vienna Acoustics Mozart towers. I remember really liking the sound and looks of the speaker.

What I don’t remember is if they are designed for near wall placement or need to placed out into the room for best results.

As a fan of the Scan-Speak Revelator mids and tweeters I have been interested to hear some reviews of North Creek Music’s Big Kat, a tower that is designed for near wall placement and if you plug the port, integrate well with subs.

I built the previous generation Vision Signatures that unlike the North Big Kat, required a sub-woofer and I am still more than happy with them. The Visions are not designed for near wall placement as I remember but that is not an issue in my room.


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## JWUC (Aug 30, 2013)

So, I thought I would give an update....

I did tweak the system a lot and a lot of the distortion is gone from the low end now that I'm not treating the Mozarts as Full Range speakers. (It was really evident is action scenes or the synthesized technology sounds in movies e.g. the Helecarrier taking off in the 2nd Captain America flik)

...one of the reasons that I'm doing this is just looking for a bit of a change and for a project to work on. I've had the Mozarts for a decade now. If I didn't like them, they wouldn't have made it this long. I built a set of the Overnight Sensations MTMs and liked doing it so thought I would like doing mains and a center. But I don't want to take the time to build a speaker that's inferior to what I have. 

The other thing is that the Maestro center channel is a true MTM with the tweeter directly between the midwoofers. There is a LOT of washboarding going on in the different listening positions where dialogue just drops out. The Maestro Grande moves the tweeter, but it's $1600 and I don't know if the tone will match non-Grande Mozarts. 
So...If I can have a project which will kepp me busy, that will net me equal\better sound...I'll pursue it. 

maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way? I dunno.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Do you have any room treatments? If not I would tune the room first... It will be like upgrading your speakers for less money (especially if you DIY the panels).


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## JWUC (Aug 30, 2013)

ellisr63 said:


> Do you have any room treatments? If not I would tune the room first... It will be like upgrading your speakers for less money (especially if you DIY the panels).


There's stairs on the right side, windows with blinds on the left side and behind the TV, behind the listener is 1/2 open to the kitchen and 1/2 covered with a tapestry and there's a huge area rug. There's not a lot of wall space for treatments.


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