# Do I need more power for my setup?



## klenoth (Apr 29, 2011)

Hello, I have just bought a couple of Klipsch RF7II and connected them to my Pioneer SC LX-83 Reciever.
The question is should I get a separate poweramp for the Klipsch speakers?
Will it be necessary cause the RFII can handle more power.

Here are the links:
http://www.klipsch.com/rf-7-ii-floorstanding-speaker 

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/archive/SC-LX83/page.html


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Hi and welcome to HTS! Nice setup you have!

I would give myself a chance to listen to the system after setting it up. Whether you have enough power depends on how loud you listen, the size of your room, and the equipment specs. I see those speakers are very efficient at 101dBSPL sensitivity (@ 2.83V / 1m). Their power handling is also impressive at 250W RMS / 1000W Peak. Both of those are solid specs. But as far as I can tell, the receiver's power spec of 190W per channel is not as sturdy or revealing. the 190W per channel could mean with only 2 channels driven, which means that in the real-world, overall power is reduced when all channels are operating.

If your listening volume and room size are reasonable, you should have plenty of power to drive those puppies! And if you're not satisfied for whatever reason, your receiver has what are called "pre-outputs" which allow you to connect external power amps. You can always upgrade later.


----------



## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

This. ^ ... The speakers shouldn't ::Need:: more power, they should sound fine. Shouldn't be "necessary" because they "can handle more power." That latter is if (IF) you have a larger room and want to drive more air. 

Stick with what you've got until you identify a problem (not the same as "think you have a problem").


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

If you have a SPL meter...I would sit in the MLP, and take a measurement at the level you like to listen at. More than likely you will not need any more power (depending on room size, MLP, and level you listen at). The speakers can do reference level with only a couple of watts at 1 meter away. If you sit 12' away you would still only be using 16 wpch (if my calculations are correct), which leaves plenty of headroom above reference levels..


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Klipsch are very efficient so I would highly doubt you would need more power.


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I have the same speakers as you and recently added an amplifier. To be honest the difference is going to be minimal but it did give me peace of mind. Do you need? No. Having said that I'm still happy I added it to my setup.


----------



## klenoth (Apr 29, 2011)

What amp do you have?


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

klenoth said:


> What amp do you have?


 Emotiva XPA-3 providing 200 WPC for the front soundstage.


----------



## klenoth (Apr 29, 2011)

I have them hooked up with my receiver, but I have a nagging feeling that they should have more punch. The living room I have them in is about 420 sq feet.

The rest of my system is Klipsch RC64 front, Klipsch RF63 rear(my old fronts) and Klipsch RS52 surround.
And the subwoofer I use is a SVS PC13Ultra.

I have a researched a bit and got a good deal on two of these power-amps http://www.abrahamsenaudio.no/produkter.asp#p8 and run them on the pre outs.

Or this: http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/ProductDetails.htm?Id=478&Tab=2&Pic=1


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

More punch in 2 channel stereo? It sounds like a settings issue to me. Please describe how you listen with both music and movies.


----------



## klenoth (Apr 29, 2011)

JBrax said:


> More punch in 2 channel stereo? It sounds like a settings issue to me. Please describe how you listen with both music and movies.


When I listen to music I have a PC connected with HDMI directly to the amp. And I use "pure direct".(only front speakers)
When I watch movies i use "auto surround" and on TV shows (that is only stereo) Popcorn time. I use "expanded stereo" with some DSP magic.

But my speakers are only a week old, so they will probably loosen up a bit, cause they play loud and fine on higher volumes.


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

klenoth said:


> When I listen to music I have a PC connected with HDMI directly to the amp. And I use "pure direct".(only front speakers) When I watch movies i use "auto surround" and on TV shows (that is only stereo) Popcorn time. I use "expanded stereo" with some DSP magic. But my speakers are only a week old, so they will probably loosen up a bit, cause they play loud and fine on higher volumes.


 What receiver are you using?


----------



## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

_klenoth,_

The feeling of punch is very subjective and the amount of punch could be adjusted through EQ'ing.
At what listening levels do you feel it is lacking punch (i.e. is the AVR volume knob up 1/3, 1/2, 3/4, or full)?

If the volume knob is lower, then it probably isn't a lack of amp power because you probably aren't pushing the power supply and amps to the limits. I don't think your Pioneer amps are low grade, so in this instance I doubt substituting with more powerful amps would make a difference.

If the volume knob is near maximum, then you may be pushing the power supply and amps to the limits. In this instance a better power supply and more powerful amps may be needed.

_Jeff,_

His equipment is listed above. I don't think his Pioneer SC LX-83 AVR is a slouch.


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

My bad, I should have re-read a little more carefully. I suggested settings and by that I meant EQ. As stated above you should be able to manually bump up your bass settings to a level you desire. The RF-7 II's put out more than enough bass for me but I do listen to music in 2.1 stereo. On occasion I also run them in "pure audio" mode which removes the sub from the equation and the bass is still formidable. It sounds to me as though you might want to do some tweaking. I doubt it's a power issue unless you're listening at mind numbing levels.


----------



## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

Define "lack punch." 

Do you have any bass management enabled?


----------



## klenoth (Apr 29, 2011)

Chromejob said:


> Define "lack punch."
> 
> Do you have any bass management enabled?


No I dont.


----------



## klenoth (Apr 29, 2011)

Chromejob said:


> Define "lack punch."
> 
> Do you have any bass management enabled?


Its like the bass is a bit laid back, like the elements doesn't get driven with full control.
I mean there are 4 10" inch drivers, and I dont think its enough power.
Thinking about buying this: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU6000DSP.aspx 
Not so pricey and if I'm wrong I haven't lost so much money :duh:

I had a big amp in my car once with an amp that had twice the output RMS than the speakers, and there I got full control of the elements.


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

klenoth said:


> Its like the bass is a bit laid back, like the elements doesn't get driven with full control.
> I mean there are 4 10" inch drivers, and I dont think its enough power.
> Thinking about buying this: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU6000DSP.aspx
> Not so pricey and if I'm wrong I haven't lost so much money :duh:
> ...


That is way more power than you need for your speakers. Listen to what others are saying, and play with the Eq. That amp is for subs not your main channels.

Don't get caught up in the need more power bit...your speakers are very efficient (more so than most people who buy bigger amps). Most people have speakers that are in the 90db efficiency range so with 100 watts driving your speakers would be the same as 1000 watts with 90db speakers.


----------



## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Refer back to my earlier post #13.

Are you pushing the Pioneer to it's limits by using near max volume and you are still wanting more, then you probably need more power?

But, if you are not near the limits of the Pioneer amp, then more powerful amps won't do anything. You may currently be using under 100watts. 100watts should sound the same through a 190WPC Pioneer and a 1600WPC Behringer.

Imagine this example...
You have a standard consumer grade refrigerator with freezer. You fill the freezer up to 70% capacity and leave the freezer temp at the standard temp of 20F. Then you are shopping and see a standalone commercial grade freezer that has 300% more capacity and has a lower temperature ability of -10F. For your situation, the bigger commercial grade freezer will not do anything more because you don't need the extra space or the extra low temperature.


----------



## klenoth (Apr 29, 2011)

gdstupak said:


> Refer back to my earlier post #13.
> 
> Are you pushing the Pioneer to it's limits by using near max volume and you are still wanting more, then you probably need more power?
> 
> ...


The turned the volume to max for the first time. I'm taking it easy since the speakers are new. No distortion but I think they are capable of more, and they are loud. The speakers is stated to handle 250W RMS and 1000W peak power, so I believe that they will be more capable with more power, but will I use it all the time. No but its good to have :hsd:


----------



## klenoth (Apr 29, 2011)

Well no I'm certain. I played loud very loud and suddenly the picture on the screen started to have pixelating artefacts, and the amp was suddenly only humming. Waited 5 minutes and turned it on again, thank good it worked again. The amp was extremely hotl.


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

klenoth said:


> Well no I'm certain. I played loud very loud and suddenly the picture on the screen started to have pixelating artefacts, and the amp was suddenly only humming. Waited 5 minutes and turned it on again, thank good it worked again. The amp was extremely hot.


 How loud are you turning up the volume? Did I read your previous post correctly that you maxed the volume? That would be insanely loud as I've never even come close to maxing my volume but I have turned it up near rock concert levels. Something just doesn't sound right. Can you measure the decibels with a SPL meter?


----------



## klenoth (Apr 29, 2011)

JBrax said:


> How loud are you turning up the volume? Did I read your previous post correctly that you maxed the volume? That would be insanely loud as I've never even come close to maxing my volume but I have turned it up near rock concert levels. Something just doesn't sound right. Can you measure the decibels with a SPL meter?


Yes I maxed the volume I have a SPL meter at work, but first I have to Open up the amp and clean it.
I'm sure its a lot of dust inside it that made it so hot.
I maxed it out on "pure direct" as I said before I used to max out the RF63 also.


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

klenoth said:


> Yes I maxed the volume I have a SPL meter at work, but first I have to Open up the amp and clean it.
> I'm sure its a lot of dust inside it that made it so hot.
> I maxed it out on "pure direct" as I said before I used to max out the RF63 also.


So you cranked the volume up to max?
You do know that 100 watts will give you 121 db (which is 6db over reference level for movie peaks, correct? 1000 watts will five you 131db, and if you go to 8000 watt amp you were looking at it will be 138db. Unless you have a huge room you will be deaf listening at those level very fast.

If you want to get a 1000 wpch or larger amp I suggest you get rid of the Klipsch speakers (which are excellent speakers), and get some 80db efficiency speakers that can handle 1000w.

Another thing if you get more power than your speakers can handle you can just as easily blow them with too much power as the voice coils will be heating up from too much power as with too little power, and clipping.

Years ago I had a pair of La Scalas (3db more efficient than yours), and with 100wpc it was way louder than I would care to listen to unless you are playing them outside or in an open garage.


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

klenoth said:


> Yes I maxed the volume I have a SPL meter at work, but first I have to Open up the amp and clean it. I'm sure its a lot of dust inside it that made it so hot. I maxed it out on "pure direct" as I said before I used to max out the RF63 also.


 I still can't fathom being in the room with those speakers playing at that level. I would think at some point you're going to damage them playing at those levels. Does your Pioneer have protection circuitry that shuts it down when it's pushed to hard?


----------



## klenoth (Apr 29, 2011)

JBrax said:


> I still can't fathom being in the room with those speakers playing at that level. I would think at some point you're going to damage them playing at those levels. Does your Pioneer have protection circuitry that shuts it down when it's pushed to hard?


It seems it have a protection against heat, I lost the sound for 5 minutes. I thought it was gone. 
No I'm looking for an amp that I can use on the pre-outs. Minimum power is 250W RMS. 
I found some used ones in Norway, Rotel RB1572 or better a Rotel RB1592.
I also fond this http://www.xtz.se/en/products/electronics/class-ap100-svart#

And oh this http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Class-AB-Merged-multicenter-amplifier-ref-KSA100-circuit-265W-265W-Post-AMP-Hifi/32332179336.html :sweat:


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

klenoth said:


> It seems it have a protection against heat, I lost the sound for 5 minutes. I thought it was gone.
> No I'm looking for an amp that I can use on the pre-outs. Minimum power is 250W RMS.
> I found some used ones in Norway, Rotel RB1572 or better a Rotel RB1592.
> I also fond this http://www.xtz.se/en/products/electronics/class-ap100-svart#
> ...


I have always like the Rotel line, but never owned one. If you get it let us know what you think. :T


----------



## klenoth (Apr 29, 2011)

ellisr63 said:


> I have always like the Rotel line, but never owned one. If you get it let us know what you think. :T


I can get two XTZ amps (bridging them) for the price of the Rotel RB1572, and the XTZ have gotten some good reviews.:scratch:


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

klenoth said:


> I can get two XTZ amps (bridging them) for the price of the Rotel RB1572, and the XTZ have gotten some good reviews.:scratch:


Have you looked at Pro amps? I picked up a used Yamaha P2500S for $250. Here is a new one... http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/yamaha-p2500s-dual-channel-power-amp

I am not sure how much they are in your area, but here I could buy 3 new ones for the price of the Rotel (great amps). I used to buy the Classe amps (great amps too), until i brought home a Crown, and a QSC amp, and heard how they sounded for much less. The only downside for me was fan noise. The Yamahas I run now...I have never heard any fan noise from at all.

Just saying...option. :T:T


----------



## klenoth (Apr 29, 2011)

ellisr63 said:


> Have you looked at Pro amps? I picked up a used Yamaha P2500S for $250. Here is a new one... http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/yamaha-p2500s-dual-channel-power-amp
> 
> I am not sure how much they are in your area, but here I could buy 3 new ones for the price of the Rotel (great amps). I used to buy the Classe amps (great amps too), until i brought home a Crown, and a QSC amp, and heard how they sounded for much less. The only downside for me was fan noise. The Yamahas I run now...I have never heard any fan noise from at all.
> 
> Just saying...option. :T:T


I was trying to pre-order this yesterday http://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/products/xls-2502, but could not get the order trough from USA. (it was stated int. shipping) but the option of other countries in the roll down menu was not there.

But the only thing is the fan noise (not a problem when playing loud) but it should just be a little modification to change the fans.


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

klenoth said:


> I was trying to pre-order this yesterday http://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/products/xls-2502, but could not get the order trough from USA. (it was stated int. shipping) but the option of other countries in the roll down menu was not there.
> 
> But the only thing is the fan noise (not a problem when playing loud) but it should just be a little modification to change the fans.


I wouldn't go with that much power unless you want to use it for a sub. I have the P2075 amp for my horns, and the P2500s for my bass bins, and to be quite honest it has never seen 1 watt for the horns (according to calculations it is less than 1 half a watt on peaks at reference levels at 12'). Personally if you must get a larger amp i would go no larger than 250 wpc. 

I would also check the forums to see if anyone else has the same amp you want, and see if there is a fan noise issue. When I had the fan noise problem on the QSC, and Crown it was not acceptable for me in a small room. Some of the Crowns have fan noise, and some don't...I don't know which one do though. :T


----------



## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

ellisr63 said:


> I wouldn't go with that much power unless you want to use it for a sub. I have the P2075 amp for my horns, and the P2500s for my bass bins, and to be quite honest it has never seen 1 watt for the horns (according to calculations it is less than 1 half a watt on peaks at reference levels at 12'). Personally if you must get a larger amp i would go no larger than 250 wpc.
> 
> I would also check the forums to see if anyone else has the same amp you want, and see if there is a fan noise issue. When I had the fan noise problem on the QSC, and Crown it was not acceptable for me in a small room. Some of the Crowns have fan noise, and some don't...I don't know which one do though. :T


i have no fan noise issues with the Crown x1000 amp, the problem is finding them now. I very never tried them on my mains (they power my subs), but the person I bought them from powered a pair of Legacy Victorias with them and the performed nicely:T:nerd:


----------



## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

Chromejob said:


> Define "lack punch."
> 
> Do you have any bass management enabled?





klenoth said:


> No I dont.


Enable. Bass. Management. NOW.[1]

[1] P. 111-112 of your AVR manual. Set speakers to SMALL, then under SW crossover, set the crossover freq to 80Hz or 100Hz. 



klenoth said:


> Its like the bass is a bit laid back, like the elements doesn't get driven with full control.
> 
> I mean there are 4 10" inch drivers, and I dont think its enough power.
> 
> ... I had a big amp in my car once with an amp that had twice the output RMS than the speakers, and there I got full control of the elements.


Please send me some of your drugs so I can reproduce your expectations. In return I'll send you some aviation grade hearing protection so you don't go deaf from your experiments.

Car audio and home audio are not the same. Don't try to apply rules from in-vehicle systems to home theater. "An amp that had twice the output RMS than the speakers, and there I got full control of the elements" doesn't make sense to me unless "full control" means "ability to effect permanent damage to the speakers." See p. 119 of your Pioneer manual for warnings about overload and overheat conditions. 

With 10" woofers, you'll get some bass, but using your sub for 80Hz and below, even 100Hz and below, will free up your amp and your main speakers to generate the higher freqs. Try it. Read up on Bass Management on this site, Audioholics, etc., to better understand the benefits. 

Your English may not be precise, but it appears that you are proceeding from the assumption that your speakers aren't doing all they can without having more amplifiers driving them. Your question, "Do i need more power," has been answered, and you seem to be refusing the answers that do not match your own expectation that you should buy more amplifier power. If you don't see the flaw in this thinking, we can't help you.





klenoth said:


> When I listen to music I have a PC connected with HDMI directly to the amp. And I use "pure direct".(only front speakers)
> 
> When I watch movies i use "auto surround" and on TV shows (that is only stereo) Popcorn time. I use "expanded stereo" with some DSP magic.
> 
> ...


Let your speakers break in a little. Some people mention 20 hours at REGULAR listening levels as sufficient. 

Turn off DSP and other processing modes other than plain Dolby Pro Logic II(x). Some will reduce the audio "punch" as you say.


----------



## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

The "punch" often referred to is generally in the 60-70 hz range. Make sure your properly positioned sub is reproducing it.

Sent from my iPhone using HTShack


----------



## klenoth (Apr 29, 2011)

Chromejob said:


> Enable. Bass. Management. NOW.[1]
> 
> [1] P. 111-112 of your AVR manual. Set speakers to SMALL, then under SW crossover, set the crossover freq to 80Hz or 100Hz.
> 
> ...


Do you have the same amplifier as me?
If so what mode are you using it for playing music?
And my English is not so precise, cause I'm from Norway, and there might be some glitches in the matrix:crying:


----------

