# Harsh and piercing sound



## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

Hello HTS,

*Background information*

I've postet here before in the Audio processing section, asking about maximum volume.. The conversation quickly changed to me not liking the audyssey calibration.. Link:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...nderstanding-maximum-volume-0db-audyssey.html

This leads to this new thread, in the DIY section.. I finally abandoned the audyssey curve, and changed to my favorite "Audyssey bypass L/R", as i like dynamic EQ and dynamic volume - but not the Audyssey curve..

I found, through measurements, that i have nulls at 125hz, 250hz and so forth, which audyssey boosted by 10dB (!!!!) each.. I can't move my speakers around to fix this problem, and i tried measuring near-field to find that these speakers are ruler flat from 40 to 20kHz.

The speakers in question, is a pair of DIY with Scan-speak 8535 and some Scan-speak classic dome tweeter (don't know exact model)

The amplifier, i use to drive them, is a Denon 4311.

*The actual question*

I find my speakers harsh and piercing - I've tried connecting my surround speakers (also DIY - same manufacturer), and i find them piercing as well..

I'm beginning to suspect my hearing, as I had quite a few problems with my ears in the early years.. Can this cause increased sensitivity to certain frequencies?

I will make a small list with songs and passages with the sound i'm trying to describe:

The worst: Rihanna - Four Five Seconds: 
Rihanna's voice sounds terrible to me..






Kygo - Fireston: 
From 0.50-1.05, again - the voice sounds piercing to me






Avicii - Levels: 
Harsh intro






Guns'n'Roses:
The voice at 1.15-1.30






Is it possible to change something in the speaker, to address this problem?
Could it be the amplifier?
My ears?
Bad recording?

I'm suspecting it to be a sound, in the 1kHz region - as all these voices peaks here in a spectrogram (cheap app on phone).

All feedback is welcome!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

What sources are you using? Have you tried this bypass with other speakers?


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

HDMI from Spotify Premium.

I've tried pure-direct mode with the other speakers..


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

have you tried other speakers? it very well may be something in the crossover


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

I can try connecting my old infinity primus 150 speakers later..

But, what can cause this in the crossover?


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

I tried the Primus speakers.. Same sort of piercing sound..
I noticed it in my dad's car too, with the Rihanna song on the radio..

I actually think it is a personal preference/hearing damage..

Now a question to the DIY'ers.. Can you tune a speaker to tame this harsness? Do you have some 'voodoo', to make a speaker super soft, but still keep that airy treble?


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

Yep, if you have full control of the crossover you could trim the mid kHz range some. If you have access to flexible enough EQ, however, don't bother just use that!

Does your Denon or one of your sources have graphic EQ?


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## TomFord (Jul 15, 2014)

First, I wouldn't put the faith in Auddessy or any similar program. On back to back tests with all of them I've seen different crossover points and level calibration varying significantly from the previous test. Set your crossover at what the speaker specs r set for. Not what Auddessy sums up by sine waves. Trust your ear.

No, frequency ranges from 20Hz - 20 kHz shouldn't be difficult to listen to at any area. Not being able to hear as well? Sure. 
Possibly over thinking some aspects. That intro was Harsh. On an album you on with the same sampling rate do you notice huge differences throughout the album?

In my opinion part of it is you. Do not mean to be offensive, just think your expectations on what you think you should be hearing may be higher than they should be. Or you believe there's a issue and are listening for problems and having a placebo effect

I would check the crossovers on the DIY speakers. If you have a multimeter see if all connections are good. Most have a beep tone option to make this simple. A 10$ one will have it. 

Check all your speaker connections. It's surprising to me how some tend to get a bit loose after a few months

The DAC was the next that came to mind but I'd be surprised if it was this. Are the only issues from the DIY speakers? Surrounds? All of them? If it's not all its not the DAC.


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## TomFord (Jul 15, 2014)

There's no voodoo. Attenuation, impedance compensation, etc can be used yet I don't believe any of those to be the issue/cure


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Agree with fusselli. Unfortunately, I think you could be on to something with the hearing damage thing. I've had times when my allergies make my entire sinus system go berserk. This put pressure on my ear, and voices sounded like they had a disguiser on them, but was oddly painful at the same time. I've had this after putting a scratch in my ear canal too. I assume you've seen someone about it?


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

Many possible issues here. 
- When sinus are blocked, speakers consistently sound brighter to me, especially on female voices.
- About the deep nulls, normally Audyssey should not try to compensate them. Deep nulls are normally at relatively low frequencies. Peaks at 125 and 250 Hz would not make the speaker sound bright. 
- You receiver has PEQ at 63Hz / 125Hz / 250Hz / 500Hz / 1kHz / 2kHz / 4kHz / 8kHz / 16kHz. You could try that but I'm sure the corrections are much sharper than the PEQ allows to correct. Still it could help. Do you listen on/off-axis? Did you try to EQ on axis and listen off-axis?
- I wouldn't be surprised if Rihanna sounded bright on a revealing speakers like yours. Those recordings wouldn't make me question my setup/hearing too much.


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

I just looked up, what the Sinus system is, and i really think you guys are on to something here..
I've had a cold for some time now, and i probably had that as well the last times i really got annoyed with the sound.. I never thought about, that i could effect my hearing.. I tried "pressure equalizing my ears(like divers)", and that actually relieved the pain, from the female voices..


You did mention the DAC..

I noticed, that when i do a full sweep in REW with audyssey engaged, a screeching sound would appear around the boosted areas.. Not a tone, a screeching tone.. No such thing appeared when i turned it off.. 

The sweep signal is -3dbFS - and if audyssey boosted certain frequencies by 10dB, i understand if this happen..
I'm not doing these sweeps at full volume, btw.

Edit:

I tried playing around with a manual EQ aswell - that did not remove the effect.. - only softens some parts of it


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

I have news in the audyssey case..

I'm living in a dorm, who has an old audyssey-capable receiver in the basement.. I borrowed the microphone, and decided to do some tests..

That old microphone measured the exact same curve as my current microphone, just about 5dB lower..

But then i noticed something strange.. On the higher end, my current microphone measured closer and closer to this old microphone, and ended up measuring the exact same at 10-20kHz..

That explains quite clearly, why i don't like audyssey on my set up.. The microphone has quite a steep roll off in the higher end, which explain why it gives me such a bright sound..

I tried calibrating with the old microphone, and i could hear the difference at the moment i turned on the music..

Not that i like audyssey now - but it sure is a lot better.. Why not try calibrating audyssey with a ruler flat, professional microphone?
And then adjust the level to match the supplied microphone afterwards - as there's clearly a difference in level.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Have you ever gone to a high-end retailer...or a speaker show? If so...same experience there?


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

I have been at the Dali factor, where they made a short show for us.. I didn't notice anything, but then again, they would never put on a CD, that would sound sharp.. And i did play the tracks i could remember, when i got back home.. Nothing.. 
Actually that old microphone helped alot.. I'm listening to music without my sub right now, never heard it like this..


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## TomFord (Jul 15, 2014)

Haven't noticed any hearing damage, yet would be surprised if it didn't occur to some extent 

Is the same screeching from multiple speakers or one that's set at + 10 dB? 
What listening mode do you use? Switch it to All Stereo. Try that on a few songs. Then Dolby Surrond. 
Set all crossovers to 80 Hz on anything that's not a tower with drivers larger than 6.5. On drivers smaller than 6.5' set them to 100 Hz. Interested to hear the points you have the crossover at. 

Give me the lay of the land so I can get a better understanding. 5.1 setup? Audio & video all handled by HDMI? The + 10 dB gain Auddessy set, which speakers did it do this to? Flying blind, could help a lot more with those details


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

Okay, I'll try giving a more thorough explanation with pictures..

5.1 setup:

See pictures: http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...only/64925-small-home-theater-dorm-style.html

First, corrections audyssey made (this is with the old microphone, from the basement)


























I have a measurement, of the speaker when it was tuned:










I contacted him, with these problems, and he will send me another resistor, and a capacitor to:
1. Lower the frequency range from 3kHz and up
2. Flatten the bump at 3kHz

I have all speakers crossed at 80 Hz, will change surrounds to 100 Hz due to your recommendation.

I did the sweeps again:

-3 dbFS
-17.5 on amp

I didn't notice any screeching noices.. I didn't want to go any louder, but maybe i should?

I listened to music 8 hours yesterday, and not once did i notice the annoying sound I have been referring to..

I think that the old audyssey microphone is more flat, and therefore boosts the range from 100-500Hz, and leave the higher end pretty flat.

It's practically the same i will do, when i lower the higher end in the crossover - as Audyssey probably set the speaker level by the higher frequencies.

EDIT:

Room response, measured with audyssey mic


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

I opened my speaker, and found silver wires and alot of bad soldering.. i tried to change them, and succeded with one of the speakers.. I also switched a resistor, and added a capacitor (seller's advice)

I saw the crossover, and immediatly doubted the things here:










I don't know the size of the inductors, but i really doubt that the single inductor i series with the 8535, will roll-off quick enough, to stop it from playing the sounds where it "breaks up"

Any thoughts?


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

You are right. Irrespectively of the inductor size or value, this crossover is far too simplistic to match the level of performance your drivers are capable of. There is a lots of info about the ProAc 2.5 clone and how they tamed it using a notch filter as a bare minimum. Google "proac 2.5 clone troels" to get the background info.


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

Ah, .. Knew it! I never ever saw a clone, with a crossover this simple..

But, i can't just copy another crossover from a 2.5 clone.. I don't know the cabinet size, or any specification of my exact speaker..


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

Oops, turns out, that it was a D2905/970000 tweeter..

Do you guys have any idea about, what i can do?


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

I found this, in his article about the 2.5 clone:










The alternative tweeter he uses here 9500, is very close to my 9700..

Is it possible to modify it, to fit my 9700, without having measurements?

I don't know much about crossover designing - so please tell me, if I'm asking stupid questions


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## TomFord (Jul 15, 2014)

JensToft91 said:


> Okay, I'll try giving a more thorough explanation with pictures..
> 
> 5.1 setup:
> 
> ...



Thanks. 


First thing that jumped out is the gains on all speakers below 80 Hz. It's like they're all set to full band and there's no subwoofer connected. The 20-80 Hz should be flat or not registering anything if a subwoofer is connected. Even if you didn't have a sub those gains or audio being played below 80 should only be on the front left & right. Haven't used Audyssey in a little while, but it shouldn't be displaying that gain under 80 as no info/audio should be being sent. 

Next is the surround left and the jump at 250 Hz which is the opposite of the surround right I believe. Do you have it within 2 feet of a wall? Remember the worst place in any room for a speaker is if you have equal distance from the wall behind it and the side wall. e.g 2 feet from rear wall, 2 feet to side wall. While on the topic the best place (for most rooms) is for L, R, SL, SR, is 33% of the rooms length as well as 33% the rooms width. e.g. 12 x 10 room. Place them 3.96 feet and 3.33 feet from respective walls. Of course this can't typically be done. Also never place anything other than a sub within 2 feet of the wall to its side. 

When you did hear the strange noises were they always at higher frequencies? That would make sense to me from what you described on the crossover. Looks are deceiving, it could be the inductor. Remember that with inductors low frequencies flow through them at low resistance, but as the frequency gets higher so does the resistance. High frequency signals are met with a extremely high resistance on the inductors. 
On capacitors it's the opposite. High frequencies flow through them at very low resistances, yet when a lower signal like an 60 Hz wave for this example tries to flow through a capacitor the resistance is immense. 
The plane is now boarding so I have to run. Check out this crossover calculator if you want to determine what yours is. http://www.erseaudio.com/CrossoverCalculators
there's also a good one I've used in the Amazon app store.

It's not thrilling yet I recommend reading aspects like this http://artsites.ucsc.edu/ems/music/tech_background/z/impedance.html

My recommendation is to get better crossovers that have good damping with a Linkwitz Riley filter. It eliminates the time variations at the crossover points.... Got to board. Talk to you guys later


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

Jens,
Typical 2 tweeters cannot be interchanged without any changes in xover. Troels has an article where he measured the 9500/9700/9900 (see www.troelsgravesen.dk/95009700.htm). This does a good job of showing the differences in their on-axis response and the different crossover sections required to address their respective deviations from flat response.

About your cabinet, the parameters that will have the most impact the xover design are the baffle width as well at the position of the drivers on the baffle. If the drivers are correctly positioned, then the easiest option is to purchase a pair of 9500's (they fit in the same cutout). The internal volume of your cabinet is going to impact the bass response but should not require crossover changes.

If the dimensions are different then the above crossover likely requires changes even for the 9500. Unfortunately, designing a new crossover requires measurements of the individual drivers in the cabinet to start with. That said, you can probably achieve an improvement over what you currently have by studying the different response curves and modeling the crossovers + drivers to shape the response. With regards to the target xover shapes (LR2, LR4...), an important distinction you need to make is between the electrical and acoustic shapes. The acoustical shape is the sum of the electrical filter and the driver's own acoustic rollof. For a given target acoustic shape, the electrical filter will deviate from the ideal ones to achieve the "textbook" acoustic shape.


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## Kiwilistener (Apr 5, 2010)

Hi Jens
Forget about the amp, speakers and crossovers ( for now at least).
The first thing you need to do is get a hearing test as this will give you a baseline to work from. I suffer from tinnitus in my left ear, which causes a permanent ringing in the 16 to 18000khz range. This effects how I hear some of the upper register sounds.
Once you have that sorted then the next stage is to look at the quality of your recordings.

High quality flac's are very good for clean sound. However there is no getting around a poor mix or reproduction.
In all of the samples you posted there is a distinctive screech and echo in the 1 to 3000khz ranges right in the mid to upper vocal ranges. Rhianna sounds dreadful, in the upper vocal range. The likely cause is horrible reproduction and or compression to keep file sizes small for online video. Spotify doesn't provide good quality audio even though they say they do, its why I don't use them any more.
You have to have a quality recording before you can make any judgement. 

*Test the sound output with a quality pair of headphones. If you hear the same in the phones as the speakers then the recordings are the problem.*

The equipment you have when run in purely flat response ( no equalizer) coupled with the speakers you have should give a pretty good output. A good crossover definitely helps here but is not the only criteria for good sound.

Stay away from Audusey as I've never been impressed with it as its not able to account for a lot of in-room variables.


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

Right, quite a bit information to comment on..

I've read it all, and i will take all the information into consideration, thanks!

Audyssey problems: boosting below 80hz, doesn't really make any sense, but as far as i know, Denon sets the crossover, and audyssey equalizes.. So it makes sense to equalize the full spectrum, if you don't have a subwoofer.

Two tweeter / crossover problems: I've made an appointment with the guy, who designed the speakers - he will help me tune them all over again - only paying for the components.. Nice!

Ear problems? I do have them, quite sure of it.. But! The more i listen to music, and try to pinpoint the problems, the more I'm sure it's in the crossovers. All music with alot of lowend, and the highend sounds beautiful of these speakers.. But every thing with alot of MID sounds bad.. Rock, pop and so on.. 

I will return, when i get these speakers tuned!

THANKS for all the replies


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

You are on the right track. Personally I would study the aforementioned articles to make sure the redesigned crossover addresses all the current response issues before actually paying/ordering the new components. If you don't have the tools to simulate the crossover at least try to see if the proper filter sections are in place to address the lack of baffle step compensation and the tweeter response. You could even post it here if the designer agrees... Maybe the designer can explain his crossover design and why it wasn't designed that way in the first place.


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

All his is designs are open for the public.. That's what he does for a living..
He has been working for speaker companies for many years, and decided to go on his own..

I believe that my speaker, is a "resale", where he used an old cabinet, replaced the drivers, and designed the crossover to a flat response.. Therefore didn't spend that much time, actually listening to this speaker.. He did ask me, if i was satisfied - and as it was my first HiFi speaker, i was impressed be the bass and the clear highs - i wasn't aware of this problem.. Now he will re-tune it, for free..

You can visit his site, but it's in danish.. A few examples of speaker kits:
(I don't know if this is allowed on this site? This is not advertisement, only links, so you guys can check out his other crossover designs) 

http://frequence.dk/hifi/25-byggesaet-stander/1235-m7-wa-s/
http://frequence.dk/hifi/25-byggesaet-stander/970-rib-18-revelator/
http://frequence.dk/hifi/26-byggesaet-gulv/1252-wa66-ri-stereosaetkit/

Maybe this can give you an idea about his work


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## fbov (Aug 28, 2008)

After reading through the thread, I'm seeing:
- an issue with high frequency quality, a screeching sound
- a possible measurement mic problem
- a possible crossover problem
- a possible driver problem
- and lots of other suggestions, plus
- what looks like a placement issue, too.

Screeching
To my ears, use of this term implies distortion. Linear distortion has been discussed (hot top end due to bad mic) but close-mic'ed measurements look very good so I'll discount FR. 

Non-linear distortion (harmonic, intermodulation) sounds very much like screeching to me, caused in my case, by a tweeter being crossed too low. I'm sure that's not the case here. 

Hearing issues are a real possibility. Once went to see Neil Young with an ear infection, and sat at the top of bleachers, resting on a cinderblock wall. I couldn't look at the stage because the ear near the wall would screech when I turned my head and caught the wall reflection in that ear. Had Otitis Media once, so I've had tubes in my ears as an adult. Tube caused distortion even at low levels; restaurant conversation was decidedly one-sided - my good ear. 

If it's your ears, all loud sources should sound bad, not just these speakers.

Bad Mic
Contact Denon to see if it's warrantable. However, this should show up in speaker measurements, assuming you have a measurement mic, separate from the Audyssey mic (you are using the Audyssey mic when running Audyssey, aren't you?)

Crossover/driver problem
I strongly disagree with the pundits who criticize a speaker based on a simple XO circuit. Without knowing the drivers' responses and modeling the system, the comments are guesswork. Some XO's have 4 parts, some have 20 for the same driver combination - many ways to skin a cat, as they say. 

Glad to hear you're in contact with the maker, as he can fill in a lot of the XO questions, as well as verifying speaker performance. I bet he has other speakers you can assess for screech, too. 

Placement issues
Whenever you see a dip in the 100-200Hz range, with a harmonic structure (second dip at 2x frequency), think boundary reflection. A speaker in front of a wall will have a dip at a frequency that's:
283/distance (feet) = dip frequency​
283 is 1/4 the speed of sound in feet per second. We're looking for a 1/2 wavelength difference (when the reflection is out of phase) for sound that's traveled to the wall and back, the second factor of 1/2. A dip at 141.5Hz would likely be due to a wall 2 feet away from the speaker, especially if there's another dip at 283Hz.

Note this applies to floors and ceilings as well, but with some trigonometry becasue the floor or ceiling are not directly behind the speaker, like the front wall is. 

Finally, if you don't have a sub, at least tell the AVR the surrounds are SMALL. They're getting one of a lot of bass boost!

HAve fun,
Frank


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

I'm glad ''fbov'' took the time to post a comprehensive ''wrap-up'' like this. Just to clarify, if the crossover comment refers to my earlier posts he assumed my writing was general whereas it was specific to these drivers in a 2-way application. 



fbov said:


> Crossover/driver problem
> I strongly disagree with the pundits who criticize a speaker based on a simple XO circuit. Without knowing the drivers' responses and modeling the system, the comments are guesswork. Some XO's have 4 parts, some have 20 for the same driver combination - many ways to skin a cat, as they say.





dgmartin said:


> You are right. Irrespectively of the inductor size or value, this crossover is far too simplistic to match the level of performance your drivers are capable of.





dgmartin said:


> Unfortunately, designing a new crossover requires measurements of the individual drivers in the cabinet to start with.


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## JensToft91 (Jan 19, 2013)

Screeching
Non-liniar distortion can be a factor in this situation, as my room is quite small – but with quite a lot acoustic treatments on the wall and roof. Nothing on the left side though, and directly beside and behind me. You can check out my room at:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...only/64925-small-home-theater-dorm-style.html
Hearing issues, might be the root of this problem – as I’ve had tubes in both my ears, and blown my eardrums many times. I just hope we can tune the speakers to sound super smooth?

Bad mic
I am using the audyssey mic to calibrate – however, the one that comes with the Denon 4311 seems to have a bad top-end, as it tends to boost it. When I use an old audyssey mic, this boost doesn’t show.

Placement issues
This explains the dips at 100-200 hz range! Thank you!

I do have a sub. PC12-NSD, all speakers set to small.

Thank you for your thorough answer.


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