# What would you do...



## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

Hello all, I first want to say that I'm grateful for this site and it's members with all their knowledge. 

I've had my Home Theater for years now and am wondering if I'm missing something or if there is something that you enthusiasts think should be my next upgrade. 

So here's what I have currently: 

7.1

Receiver: Pioneer Elite VSX-92THX
Fronts: Paradigm Monitor 7's...was the latest upgrade I did years ago
Center: JBL Northridge EC35
Rears: JBL Northridge E20...4 of them for my rears and rear centers. 
Subwoofer: 15" Adire Audio Brahma in a Dayton Audio Sealed 3cu ft box. 
Subwoofer Amp: Nady Audio XA-900
XBOX One for my Gaming/Blu Ray Player/DVD/CD player...i guess this was my last purchase

I also have a buttkicker under my couch for that added sensation  

So...am I missing anything? If you were me, what would be the next upgrade?

Thanks and I look forward to any comments or questions.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

> So...am I missing anything? If you were me, what would be the next upgrade?


Do you feel you're missing something? If 'yes', that's what you should buy / replace / upgrade. If 'no', sit back and enjoy.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Fazorcat said:


> So here's what I have currently:
> 
> Receiver: Pioneer Elite VSX-92THX
> Fronts: Paradigm Monitor 7's...was the latest upgrade I did years ago
> ...


Without knowing your room size it's next to impossible to determine if you what you have is sufficient. Your usage - percentage of HT to music - is critical as well, as is the volume level you prefer (low, loud, something in between). But even without that information one thing jumps right out at me...

You have a mismatch in your front sound stage, by having a different center from the left and right, which is a big no-no. That will surely be causing you a audible imbalance. It's tough to tell, but it appears your surrounds might be in a less than ideal position too (depending upon where those shelves are located relative to the seats).

Since you resorted to a buttkicker am I to assume you don't feel your subwoofer has adequate lower bass extension? If so, your amp might be holding you back; that driver screams out for something a little better.

Most of what you listed are really nice components though, so it may be just a matter of tweaking and fine tuning. A matching center is definitely worth considering, and perhaps a new sub amp, but other than that you have a lot of solid equipment.


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

Thanks for the responses. Jim, a paradigm center is one thing I was thinking about too. Stinks cause the center matches the rears, but I guess that's not too important? 

I got the buttkicker for gaming mostly, like the feel of explosions. I like that if I want to feel the bass, but don't want to bother the neighbors at a late hour, I can just use the buttkicker. 

Any other areas of weakness with my setup? Opinions welcome!


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

Your mis-match center channel is the main weakness - If you like
the Paradigm sound signature - then get the series center that will
timbre (voice) match.

Now if you really wanted to change/upgrade, then I would look at the JBL Studio
5 series speakers for front and center.


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

I've been looking now at a paradigm center to match... but it appears they have come out with a newer version 7. My fronts are Monitor 7's V6. I think what I would want is the CC-190 V6 or cc-290 V6???

How do I get a match if I can't find V6's anymore since everything is V7?


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

Fazorcat said:


> I've been looking now at a paradigm center to match... but it appears they have come out with a newer version 7. My fronts are Monitor 7's V6. I think what I would want is the CC-190 V6 or cc-290 V6???
> 
> How do I get a match if I can't find V6's anymore since everything is V7?


At least stick with the Monitor series, even the current Monitor series should be close

I would not expect a major difference between V6 and the current version. >>>
Paradigm is known for minor changes.
At least stay in the Monitor series line - you can contact Paradigm, or a Paradigm
dealer. Also, a version 6 recently sold on Ebay.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Fazorcat said:


> Thanks for the responses. Jim, a paradigm center is one thing I was thinking about too. Stinks cause the center matches the rears, but I guess that's not too important?


Actually, it's the opposite; the center should match the front left and right. It's not as critical - or even absolutely necessary to be honest - for the fronts to match the surrounds. If you can get a center that's at least from the same series, where the drivers are similar, then you should be fine.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

eljay said:


> Do you feel you're missing something? If 'yes', that's what you should buy / replace / upgrade. If 'no', sit back and enjoy.


^^^
This
Don't create problems in search of solutions. Hard for others to "virtually" hear your system. You should be the best judge of that. If you hear something wrong with, or are generally unsatisfied with the sound or picture, then sure.
Yes, the center should somewhat "match" the LR tonally. But even same brand does not guarantee that. Far from it. Especially if they feature the same tweeter, but a completely different mid and/or configuration...which is often the case. Let _your_ ears be the judge if something is amiss now.

cheers


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

If you happy don't change a thing. If your not, then you have to ask yourself, what You feel is missing then go from there.


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## flamingeye (Apr 2, 2008)

I think you should look into room treatments !! I for one think there one of the best upgrades you can do for a system and one of the most over looked , it really made a difference in my HT/living room


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## fokakis1 (Feb 29, 2012)

flamingeye said:


> I think you should look into room treatments !! I for one think there one of the best upgrades you can do for a system and one of the most over looked , it really made a difference in my HT/living room


+1!

You've gotten good advice with the matching center and room treatments. If you've got the urge to make an improvement to your system those 2 options should get you good bang for your buck.


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## eclipse911t (Jan 8, 2013)

1. I'd suggest trying to get your front three speaker's tweeters at more similar heights.
2. A Paradigm Monitor series (v5-v7) center would be a nice fit.
3. REW and a UMIK-1 along with room treatments. It's such a rewarding portion of the hobby. Bass trapping comes to mind.
4. With REW you can really dig into sub placements and play with crossover points quite a bit more. 
5. If your sub needs some help you can add a MINIDSP processor for a powerful EQ/Crossover.

Finally, I have to encourage you to have an achievable goal, and be prepared to reach your goal, stop upgrading, and enjoy the system. I recently got there and it's a good feeling. I still dream about the next theater, plan, read, etc, but the room in my current home is complete. I wish you the best of luck getting there, and more importantly, knowing where there is.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

...and I would say that from a science-acoustics-perception perspective, I see not one single, solitary piece of evidence, that any form of so called "room treatments" would be required, unless one feels the need for such fashion statements.
No acoustics complaints, zero in those pics indicating any possible audio perception problem from a MCH system. 
Actually, the exact opposite - a controlled directional/smooth off axis speaker design, well away from sidewall(s). IOW, the exact scenario where the majority of average humans, when judging *with their two ears*, would prefer.
Of course, YMMV.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Acoustic treatments are far more than mere fashion statements. Whether or not his room would benefit from them is unknown, but there value has been proven countless times.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

theJman said:


> Acoustic treatments are far more than mere fashion statements.


I was specifically referencing the OP's situation...and what we know of it.
Of course such items function as more than fashion Jim, but rarely, if ever, do I see this in domestic living rooms...which is what the OP appears to be in.



theJman said:


> ..but there value has been proven countless times.


Sure, in studios, anechoic chambers and maybe even for domestic situations - based purely on preferences, but almost always with zero controls.

I am not against "treatment" of "problems". First, show me the *audible to two ears* "problem", then lets figure out if the only "treatment", is gauze and bandages....or consistent with psycho-acoustic science (not "marketing" science).

cheers


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

Thanks for the comments guys. I'm seriously looking into getting a paradigm center. 

Another question...what would it sound like if my center didn't match the fronts? How would I be able to tell? Is it possible that the JBL does match it well? 

Cause it's sorta tough to spend $400 to replace a center that costs $300. Especially not knowing if I'll be able to hear a difference!


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Fazorcat said:


> Another question...what would it sound like if my center didn't match the fronts? How would I be able to tell? Is it possible that the JBL does match it well?
> 
> Cause it's sorta tough to spend $400 to replace a center that costs $300. Especially not knowing if I'll be able to hear a difference!


For HT approximately 75-80% of what you hear is coming from the front 3 speakers (discounting the subwoofers contribution for a moment). That means any mismatch there will be audible for all but a few. As effects and voices pan variations in pitch, tone and timbre will result in a perceptible imbalance. Surrounds can be different because there contribution is rather limited.

It's possible you've simply grown accustom to the difference, your hearing may not be very sensitive or perhaps you haven't had the benefit of listening to a properly matched and tuned system. There's no way of knowing for sure if you'll experience an audible benefit sufficient enough for you to feel the advantage warranted the expenditure, but as a rule you don't want the front 3 speakers to be mismatched.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

I will second Jman


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Fazorcat said:


> Thanks for the comments guys. I'm seriously looking into getting a paradigm center.


Which one?



Fazorcat said:


> Another question...what would it sound like if my center didn't match the fronts? How would I be able to tell?


Do you have a test tone function of the HTR? Run it and listen across the front three. Does it sound significantly different (especially from the midbass on up)? Any different?
Or with movies where the vocals pan across the channels, though obviously that is a dynamic situation.



Fazorcat said:


> Is it possible that the JBL does match it well?


Absolutely yes. It's also possible the Paradigm does too, though there is no guarantee for either. Again, typical centers will use the same tweeter, but not the same mid as your LR, or the same configuration.



Fazorcat said:


> Cause it's sorta tough to spend $400 to replace a center that costs $300. Especially not knowing if I'll be able to hear a difference!


True. Only one way to find out.
By "matching" looks and expectations, the paradigm may win out automatically, regardless of emitted soundwaves. It may just make you happier too.

Are you satisfied with your bass reproduction? With EQ, aka the "Room Correction" you may have ran when setting up, it's entirely possible to get satisfactory sound, though most likely only in a small area. Do you have multiple seats in a wide area, or is this system mainly for you, or you + SO?

cheers


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

ajinfla, the center I can get my hands on is the current version... paradigm "center 1". Guy at the store I called said it was about $400. More than what I wanna spend, but I just might. Wish I could sell my current center somehow, then I'd feel better. 

As for bass...yeah, I have more than I need. That sub is crazy! I actually have a 12" Velodyne powered sub that I bought a few years ago that I don't even use at my current apartment! 

I could try to find a test tone sometime, but like I said after all this research and suggestions I might just have to buy the Center 1 anyway.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Fazorcat said:


> ajinfla, the center I can get my hands on is the current version... paradigm "center 1". Guy at the store I called said it was about $400. More than what I wanna spend, but I just might. Wish I could sell my current center somehow, then I'd feel better.
> 
> As for bass...yeah, I have more than I need. That sub is crazy! I actually have a 12" Velodyne powered sub that I bought a few years ago that I don't even use at my current apartment!
> 
> I could try to find a test tone sometime, but like I said after all this research and suggestions I might just have to buy the Center 1 anyway.


That center has about the same chance as the JBL "matching" soundwaves wise. But the knowledge of and seeing that its a Paradigm, might tilt things in the Paradigms favor. If you have $400 burning a hole in your pocket and feel it would make you happier, by all means pull the trigger.
You can always try selling the JBL here, on ebay, craigslist, etc. and at least get something for it. 
Or just keep the JBL and enjoy.

My bass question was not "how loud", but "how good/smooth" at _all_ seats. Now that you've mentioned "apartment", that changes things. If the neighbors are ok with the status quo, party on.
Otherwise, you could consider spending that $400 on "bass shakers", that attach to your seating. It may give you more flexibility in listening levels (late night, turn off sub), etc.
Any further out pics of the room/seating area?

cheers


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

or...this is our job throwing out options....I am not sure how far away you sit or how many people you are trying to please at one time, BUT, if it is usually you and someone that does not care about the sound, don't use a center channel, a Phantom channel is fine in many situations. Set your AVR to no center channel and let it do the rest, this actually works very well and by its very nature will stop any of the center channel mis-matched tonalities the guys have mentioned above.

I am very guilty of not having a matching center channel for two reasons, it would be really expensive and I am not sure I am keeping my left and right speakers so, when I decide then I will work with a proper center. On occasion I do the Phantom channel and it works great.

Give it a try.


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## fokakis1 (Feb 29, 2012)

Savjac said:


> or...this is our job throwing out options....I am not sure how far away you sit or how many people you are trying to please at one time, BUT, if it is usually you and someone that does not care about the sound, don't use a center channel, a Phantom channel is fine in many situations. Set your AVR to no center channel and let it do the rest, this actually works very well and by its very nature will stop any of the center channel mis-matched tonalities the guys have mentioned above.
> 
> I am very guilty of not having a matching center channel for two reasons, it would be really expensive and I am not sure I am keeping my left and right speakers so, when I decide then I will work with a proper center. On occasion I do the Phantom channel and it works great.
> 
> Give it a try.


I'm guilty of this as well, and for many of the same reasons. I have the luxury of having both rows of seating located within the perimeter of the mains, all close to the center of the room. The results are fantastic, and my front soundstage transitions seamlessly from left-to-right.:bigsmile:


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

I already have bass shakers....the buttkicker under my couch (last picture on the first page I believe). Works well, plenty of shake! I tried the aura bass shakers and they weren't for me. More like a mid bass buzzing, the buttkicker is low rumbles just like I wanted! 

Anyway, I thought I'd give a picture of the front and back of the room in case anyone can see any other issues. I'm unsure on the room dimensions. My normal spot is in the middle of course  I'm not concerned about other listening positions really. 

46" plasma for size reference...I'm about 11-12 feet sitting in my spot to the TV. 

Excuse the mess


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Fazorcat said:


> I already have bass shakers...


I just reread you initial post :duh:

Now one thing I also noticed...pull your center forward a bit, until the edge of the _enclosure_ (not grill), is aligned with the edge of the stand.



Fazorcat said:


> Anyway, I thought I'd give a picture of the front and back of the room in case anyone can see any other issues. I'm unsure on the room dimensions. My normal spot is in the middle of course  I'm not concerned about other listening positions really.


Great, no need for added subs, hopefully your receivers auto-EQ has cut any peaks in the bass. What XO frequencies did you select, or was it done automatically by the receiver?
You may also want to creep the Paradigms forward a couple inches if you can.
Like I said before, if it sounds good on music and movies, no worries.
About the only type of "treatment" I would suggest if you felt the urge just to do _something_, is to add diffusive elements to the rear wall (behind your couch). Diffusive as in irregular shaped objects, that will scatter, but not absorb the sound. I use stacked CD racks.
IOW, something that looks like it belongs in a living room, not an isolation ward.










cheers


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

Well I've done some research and I might be able to get my hands on a cc-290 version 5.

What do you think about that? Would that fit well?... and also what would a decent price be for one in excellent condition??

Thanks


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## eclipse911t (Jan 8, 2013)

Since you can't use three monitors 7's, the CC-290 is about as close as you can get.


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

Yeah, it's version 5 instead of 6...my mains are version 6, hopefully there isn't much difference.


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## OKLAGMCRUISER (Jan 20, 2014)

consider doing a sub crawl to improve your sweet spot for sub levels. This may alleviate the need for the butt kickers. Check audiogon and us audio mart/canuck audio mart for a CC-690 v6.


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

Well, looks like I'm back at the drawing board...I received the CC-290 and although it was shipped very well, the tweeter and midrange were completely broke off inside the box. Shipping a speaker is a dangerous thing I guess. So now I get to deal with the ebay return policies and such, but more importantly I'm back on the market for a Center channel again. 

I've been reading that it's almost preferred to use a bookshelf type speaker for a center instead of an actual center channel speaker?? What if I could get my hands on a Paradigm Mini monitor or Titan monitor and use that as a center??

I really don't know what to do. Would a studio series center be worth a shot??? 

Disappointed cause that CC290 woulda been perfect. :rolleyesno:


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

I also see a studio 20 v 3 on ebay for $230ish. Front port, might be able to use as a center.

Seems like an ok deal? Would it be worth it?


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

Fazorcat said:


> I've been reading that it's almost preferred to use a bookshelf type speaker for a center instead of an actual center channel speaker?? What if I could get my hands on a Paradigm Mini monitor or Titan monitor and use that as a center??
> 
> I really don't know what to do. Would a studio series center be worth a shot???


A Paradigm Mini Monitor is a good option - and can/will make a difference.

I bought 8 pairs of speakers from Ebay before, with good success.


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

If you are satisfied - stand pat. However it were me - I like to keep the front array of speakers from the same company (especially the same tweeter). I'd replace my center channel and then stand pat.

P.S. stay with the monitor series unless you want to infect yourself with a bad case of upgraditiis :spend:


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Fazorcat said:


> Well, looks like I'm back at the drawing board...I received the CC-290 and although it was shipped very well, the tweeter and midrange were completely broke off inside the box. Shipping a speaker is a dangerous thing I guess.


Yes!! 
Or, it's karma telling you to keep the JBLs 



Fazorcat said:


> I've been reading that it's almost preferred to use a bookshelf type speaker for a center instead of an actual center channel speaker??


Vertically placed, yes, if it used the same drivers as your 7v6s. So an atom or mini v6 should be fine if you can place it vertically. The mini having the bigger midbass, so maybe a bit better if you crank it, the atom a near perfect match if you don't (both hi-passed >80hz).

cheers,

AJ


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

prerich...I had a case of mental upgraditis last night. Didn't sleep well cause I was running all the possibilities through my head!!! :yikes:

I was definitely thinking of what it'd be like to sell my Monitor 7's, and then buy something off the studio line for the fronts and center. 

Would studio 20's be better than monitor 7's? It so hard to think that cause they are just bookshelves compared to the bigger floorstanding 7's. Would the soundstage be just as big with bookshelves... or is that a benefit of a bigger speaker? 

Anyway, I calmed myself down and am gonna try to be patient and just wait for the correct center channel or possible bookshelf to appear for sale somewhere. 

But part of me really wonders if I offered this forum $1500-$1750 for 2 fronts and a matching center if anyone was wanting to upgrade... I wonder what offers I might get. Maybe someone else is wanting to upgrade and they'd be willing to sell their used but SWEET front set. :spend:

I guess it's time to go back to reality. :foottap:


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

Fazorcat said:


> prerich...I had a case of mental upgraditis last night. Didn't sleep well cause I was running all the possibilities through my head!!! :yikes: I was definitely thinking of what it'd be like to sell my Monitor 7's, and then buy something off the studio line for the fronts and center. Would studio 20's be better than monitor 7's? It so hard to think that cause they are just bookshelves compared to the bigger floorstanding 7's. Would the soundstage be just as big with bookshelves... or is that a benefit of a bigger speaker? Anyway, I calmed myself down and am gonna try to be patient and just wait for the correct center channel or possible bookshelf to appear for sale somewhere. But part of me really wonders if I offered this forum $1500-$1750 for 2 fronts and a matching center if anyone was wanting to upgrade... I wonder what offers I might get. Maybe someone else is wanting to upgrade and they'd be willing to sell their used but SWEET front set. :spend: I guess it's time to go back to reality. :foottap:


the studio 20's are verrrryy gooood!!! They image very well and go deeper than expected for bookshelves!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

Fazorcat said:


> But part of me really wonders if I offered this forum $1500-$1750 for 2 fronts and a matching center if anyone was wanting to upgrade... I wonder what offers I might get. Maybe someone else is wanting to upgrade and they'd be willing to sell their used but SWEET front set. :spend:


 I have owned speakers from the Monitor line before - I have 
moved forward. No upgrade for me there.


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

Bringing this thread back to life to show you the upgrades I've done. Thanks to all who gave good recommendations and opinions as to how I could improve my home theater. You'll have to go to page one and see the before to really appreciate the after...you'll see I've been busy  

So here's what I have currently now:

9.1 Onkyo Receiver - TXNR-1007
Fronts - Paradigm Monitor 7's v.6
Front Heights - Paradigm Atoms v.5
Center - Paradigm Monitor CC-290 v.5
Rears - Paradigm Micro Monitors v.6
Surrounds - Paradigm Micro Monitors v.6
Subwoofer 1 - 24" Stereo Integrity
Subwoofer 2 - 15" Adire Brahma...Which I don't use but have it hooked up still to channel 2
Subwoofer Amp - Behringer INuke 6000
Buttkicker LFE which I don't use often either but is still hooked up for fun. 

Room setup is pretty much the same, but as before any opinions are welcome as to any further improvements you guys can see. Thanks again!


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Wow, that sub is huge! Very nice and the only thing I can see is your front height speakers could be angled down a bit as it seems they're directed straight ahead from a very high position. To a lesser extent on the rear surrounds I would also prefer them to be pointed more towards the listening position.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

Looking good, that's an enormous sub!!!


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## MataLeo (Dec 30, 2009)

I wish I would have been able to catch you before you got the 290. I just purchased studio 100's and a cc-690. They replaced monitor 7's which I'm moving to surrounds and was looking to sale my 290 v.6. Day late dollar short story of my life I guess.


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

What would you guys suggest me to use as the crossover setting on my sub and speakers? I currently have them all at 80hz, but unsure if there is something better with my setup.


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## fmw (Aug 11, 2013)

I'm with those who recommend leaving things alone. Audiophilia is a strange affliction. People believe that the answer to improved sound is spending money. It is only the solution some of the time and spending money sometimes does the opposite. If you like the sound, leave it alone. If there is something wrong somewhere then fix that. Asking strangers on an internet forum what you should buy tells me you shouldn't buy anything because you don't know why you want to spend the money.

By the way I still use my Pioneer VSX 92 as the center of my home theater. I suspect it will do well for me for several more years.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Nice upgrades from your original setup.:T I will say that if you can afford to upgrade go for it but if you have fussy neighbors you may never really be able to use it to it's full potential without a nasty visit. My advice right now would be to enjoy what you have and then maybe save your money to do a reciever upgrade to one that has Atmos which looks to be the next gen of surround sound and I think you could use the speakers you have now to utilize that. Looks great though so enjoy....:clap:


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

Thanks! Yeah, I'm happy with it. I've wondered what the full 11.1 would sound like, and it'd be easy to add a couple speakers. But purchasing another $1000 + receiver would be the tough part. We will see though once the prices for 11.1 receivers go down.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Fazorcat said:


> Thanks! Yeah, I'm happy with it. I've wondered what the full 11.1 would sound like, and it'd be easy to add a couple speakers. But purchasing another $1000 + receiver would be the tough part. We will see though once the prices for 11.1 receivers go down.


Ya, That is kind of what I was getting at. Enjoy what you have now and in the meantime put your pennies away until you can afford to get one of the new receivers.


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## ramchip0007 (Jul 6, 2014)

As others have said the JBL's need better JBL's or something matching the fronts so they are tamber matched. , I don't know the power rating of the sub but I would at least dubble youre amp .say an ep 2000 ,4000, Inuke 6000dsp sounds about right. The amps get dirty when pushed hard so give youre self some headroom.


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## Fazorcat (May 7, 2011)

Ramchip, you missed the upgrades I posted a few posts back. Check them out and let me know what ya think!


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