# Can it Work for Music & HT



## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Can it work ??

I have no imagination when it comes to decorating or placement of stuff. I imagine dryly, stuff up front, speakers, equipment, display on the wall in front of the window and that is what I had done. I am not liking it and I want to look into why. Because of the knee wall becoming the ceiling and angles therein I have no idea how to work the plug in spreadsheets. I am open to suggestions and this is indeed a room I can mess with but I cannot change size at this time. 
Measurements - 8' high center of ceiling, knee wall 4' high. Room is just over 20' long and just over 15' wide. Door in the back of the room leads to the attached bathroom and two nice closets. The good thing about this room is it is semi isolated from the rest of the house, I can listen as loud as I can and no one will care or notice for that matter. There are four vents on the right side of the room for stand alone heating and a/c.
I have equipment but may start over there as well. I am not sure as there is something I am missing, so maybe I should say I have the basics covered but may change out my speakers a bit, we shall see if there is enough of those all important dollars. Thank You for any ideas.

Front










Back


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

That's a really nice room for a HT. Are you going to use it for strickly HT or music as well?

First thing I would to is build a false wall for the screen (are you planning a projector?) 20 ft will give you ample room to hide your speakers. It will also allow for a larger screen, closer to the floor (no speakers in the way) as well as allowing for optimum speaker placement (out of site/out of mind). And you'll loose the light coming in from that window.

What kind of equipment do you plan to use?


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Great Question actually, I wanted to do music and home theater but I just do not know if that can happen. 

My equipment list is under my equipment list under my avatar. The downside is I have invested in a 65" Panasonic Plasma display and it is actually quite nice. Therein lies the conundrum, the display will hang in front of the window slightly out from the wall, unless as you say I build a false wall. The display is there now, but everything will come out so I can paint and do what is needed to make this room more permanent. 

I have been pulling the speakers out from the front wall to get good audio imaging, but I am not sure that I can pull them out enough without ruining the compatibility and blending with the display. The ceiling area between the top of the two angled side walls would hold a pj screen but again, I have the tv already. Ohhh to be independently wealthy. 

I am always aware of the possibility of having to sell this house if someday things get uglier than they are now so I am not so sure about really dark ceilings and carpets and such....yikes the choices, this is why it is good to hear other opinions, analysis paralyses. :gulp::gulp:


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## yluko (Dec 6, 2012)

That would be perfect for a home studio. Lot's of studios are in places like that. I read a book about home building a recording studio and one of the spaces was just like yours. I went to look for it on amazon again but I couldn't find it. They had some acoustic paneling on the sides and where the window would be with a mixing desk/pc system in front of the window. I think they just put like a bookshelve system in the back. That could slide over the door entrance to be fancy to stop the sound getting built up there. Then a small cloud over the mix position.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Savjac said:


> Great Question actually, I wanted to do music and home theater but I just do not know if that can happen.


Where there is a will there is a way. :T


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## yluko (Dec 6, 2012)

I just found my book., Acoustic Design for the home studio by Mitch Gallagher. Was a good read. He used some RealTraps wooden panel type bass traps along the walls left and right of the mixer position. vertically mounted. Then he had two bass traps mounted horizontally on either side of the window fairly low. They also had some Soryk recomendations like rpg qrd diffusiors but there design is more expensive. They hung some wooden lattice's on the curved wall and stuck auralex type foam on them. It's pretty neat they have the design showing a 10,000 pro build of the room and a more dui cheaper build of the room. Wish I had a scanner to show you.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Thank You for the information.
I can look it up so no need to worry. This room will be more for music playback and home theater viewing so it needs to be spiffed up a bit, but I am pretty lame when it comes to decoration. Also I am useless when it comes to reading the fill in charts on nodes and where each thing would be best placed because of the roof line. So that is where I am going.

I do have a recording room in another part of the house which houses the equipment and my Mac so that can stay there.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

IIRC, there are at least two other builds that look almost exactly like your space - I think Nefzz is one and I am trying to remember the other...

I would take a look at those for some great ideas - I remember both spaces looking really good.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Jack wrote:



> I wanted to do music and home theater but I just do not know if that can happen.


It's absolutly possible. You just have to get proper placement with your speakers. HT, they will be off to the side of the screen (not so important because of the center channel). For music, just leave enough speaker cable to allow for pulling them out into the room. Finding their sweet spot, that will be the key. 

And by the way, nice speakers. I bet those really sing with the Oppo/Emotiva combo!


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## cavchameleon (Jan 7, 2008)

That actually is a great room to work with! I think you would need to put acoustic treatments into you budget to treat the tri-ceiling (ceiling and both knee walls) for reflections. Once set up, your system would work fine for HT and music, I don't think you'll have to move equipment around from one to the other (you have a nice equipment list already). I'm one of those that believes that once you have the room acoustically set up and equipment in place/calibrated, it will work great for HT and Music. You have great equipment that can do both well.

Keep in mind safety up there and that you have enough egress/access to get out, just in case. I think this is over looked a lot in attic/basement builds (i.e. good to have access out of a window also and a window plug can be used to acoustically 'block' the window).


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Thank You gents, I appreciate the input.

As you may guess, I am torn here. I have the signs that say its my room and everything but like before the sleeper sofa will go in there as well as my man chair. This is going to be difficult rebuilding my way but I like the way you guys think. 

Proof of signs


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## yluko (Dec 6, 2012)

Sleeper sofa sounds like a great idea. I moved a bed into my mixing area after a back injury and watch movies and listen to mixes from it all the time.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Ok first thing, stuff the closet with goodies, then once stuffed, put in more stuff, but I forgot to alphabetize.










box sets, records and stuff including games has to go on the bottom right ??


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Now the room, dunno what or how, I used to have it one way but it seemed contested and I think I want a more powerful front speaker choice. The Martin Logans are very very good, but just do not seem to scare me like a real theater can. Does that make sense ??


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## yluko (Dec 6, 2012)

LOL at world of warcraft. I was an addict for way too long. Quit finally thought. Nice collection though


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

It is funny what people may notice in a photograph. I did buy the WOW box sets some time ago and played for maybe 2 hours and realized I had no clue what I was doing...so back in the closet never to be played again. :huh:


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## yluko (Dec 6, 2012)

they jumped out cause I recognized them from my old shelf plus a little bigger than others. I guess fair enough it isn't the normal type of game. I clocked almost 9,000 hours in the game before I quit. I am sure you have gotten allot more things done in life only playing 2 hours 

Also saw the led zep box cause I remember that one as well


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Thank You for paying attention,

Yep, Led Zepplin, Eric Clapton and Rod Steward along with 4 Pink Floyd Box Sets and a Chess Records box set on the left.
I loves me some music.


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## yluko (Dec 6, 2012)

No problem. I love pink floyd as well.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Jack wrote:



> The Martin Logans are very very good, but just do not seem to scare me like a real theater can.


I can't imagine those ML's not able to preform well while producing reference levels. I'm thinking some serious subwoofers would change the dynamics completely. It's my opinion the the LFE is what really gives the "scare" effect...it is what does it for me anyway. Have you though about improving that end of your HT?


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

You may be right Tonto, I am not sure. I have 4 subs in the room so bottom end should not be a problem but I am not totally sure what I am looking for at this time. 
Its like when you go to an orchestral concert and the 100+ pieces are going strong, you realize it is kind of loud but not overly so and what you are really hearing is air movement. It is not forced it just occurs, does that make sense ? 
The Logans can reproduce all the notes and some of the excitement of the performance but they are the smaller version of the speaker line and really do not move the air like some of the more powerful systems do. 
I hooked up the Dahlquist's earlier and they move a bit more air which for me adds to the excitement of a performance a good bit.
So I am thinking that some speakers that can, I dont know, ..provide some real power in the low end to mid range might turn me on a bit.

A short while ago, I listened at length to a set of the Klipsch KLF series speakers at a friends house and to be sure they kind of annoyed by way up top, but through the upper mids, down into wherever the roll off on the bottom, they seemed to be able to pressurize the room and that is the excitement I am looking for, although I am not sure what to call it.

And so there is 2 things going on in this thread, can I make this room work for audio/video AND can I make some magic in here sonically ? It is a room where I can do an IB should that be needed and it is a room that is not really attached to the rest of the house and I would bother no one.

I hope all this makes sense.


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## John N (Jan 2, 2007)

You could do something like this . :bigsmile: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/gallery/image/239-02-looking-into-the-main-theater/


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Isn't this a great hobby! Just to be able to sit back & contemplate what changes we would like & then make them happen. I remember those KLF's (10's, 20's & 30's). They did have better bass, but they had the older style horns that I could never get used to (a bit of a nasal quality to vocals). And the matching surrounds just couldn't keep up. The RF series was a welcome upgrade.

I did not realize you had 4 subs. What kind of response do they give you? An IB would be best, but remember you must have the adjacent enclosure (10 x Vas if I remember correctly). What is behind the side walls (exterior wall or it there space to the eve). That might prove to be the ticket! We would have to calculate placement.

Are you also considering upgrading your ML's? I only ask because proper acoustical treatment is so important to getting every ounce out of your speakers.
So I would say yes it can work. I would treat the room to correct acoustics. Try your subs (if they go low enough for you, great, if not, IB). Try your speakers in the room likewise.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

John N said:


> You could do something like this . :bigsmile: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/gallery/image/239-02-looking-into-the-main-theater/


I absolutely love this idea, love it. I showed my wife and she even liked it, was worried a bit about home resale but other than that, I could get away with it. Hmmmmm how to do it cheaply.

Thanks for the idea. You get free Good Karma Tokens for today,


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I will take some photos in a minute, I have the Logans in place having just removed the Dahlquist's. Let me get the camera and we can chat further.




Tonto said:


> Isn't this a great hobby! Just to be able to sit back & contemplate what changes we would like & then make them happen. I remember those KLF's (10's, 20's & 30's). They did have better bass, but they had the older style horns that I could never get used to (a bit of a nasal quality to vocals). And the matching surrounds just couldn't keep up. The RF series was a welcome upgrade.
> 
> I did not realize you had 4 subs. What kind of response do they give you? An IB would be best, but remember you must have the adjacent enclosure (10 x Vas if I remember correctly). What is behind the side walls (exterior wall or it there space to the eve). That might prove to be the ticket! We would have to calculate placement.
> 
> ...


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Please excuse the blue tape on the floor and the lack of decorations. That is why I am asking, no imagination. Also, some things look crooked but they are really not so much, I used a very wide lens and the room is not too bright, kind of like me. The whole area you are viewing is above the garage so every bit of flow space against and back from the window wall can be used for an IB if that is the way I can go. In some ways I would like to scrap most of this stuff and semi start over.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Savjac said:


> Please excuse the blue tape on the floor and the lack of decorations. That is why I am asking, no imagination. Also, some things look crooked but they are really not so much, I used a very wide lens and the room is not too bright, kind of like me. The whole area you are viewing is above the garage so every bit of flow space against and back from the window wall can be used for an IB if that is the way I can go. In some ways I would like to scrap most of this stuff and semi start over.


You are making me miss my Sequels now.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

That is some nice equipment! Looks like you have found the sweet spot for the ML's (tape). If you are thinking IB, I think you could build an acoustically transparent wall just in front of the ML's. Then you could mount your drivers in boxes in the floor close to that window wall. Every thing would be out of site and allow for a very nice screen/PJ combination. If you consider a 4-6" stage, you could build the IB box into the riser (firing the direction of your choice/open into the garage below). Just thinking out loud. 

If your knee walls have sufficient space to the eve, you could mount the boxes onto them as well (behind the screen wall/back of box open into space).


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## yluko (Dec 6, 2012)

Excuse my ignorance what are those half clear things above the speakers?


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

That is part of the speaker and they are called electrostatic panels. They reproduce the sound above 500hz.
Kind of freaky eh ??


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Yeah finding and measuring is such a pain so marking with tape really helps as does the string running across the floor, might not be too easy to see in the photo. The wide set tape is for the Dahlquist as they sit a bit differently. I also use a board underneath each piece to find the best placement then I remove them and spike the stuff to the floor. The boards slide easier. 
As far as an IB, I was thinking more of building in under the floor that way the baffle would be the entire garage and then I could cut a proper sized hole in the floor behind the speakers, maybe even behind the gear to vent the sound into the room, is that not proper ? As you mention there is space behind the knee wall so that could be an option as well. I think if I build a stage...hmmm...no that would work too, there is enough room floor to ceiling. Eeeek, lots of work to do 

I guess I should start with paint first, I hate the color the builders painted the walls, under certain light it reminds me of what babies leave in their diaper. 




Tonto said:


> That is some nice equipment! Looks like you have found the sweet spot for the ML's (tape). If you are thinking IB, I think you could build an acoustically transparent wall just in front of the ML's. Then you could mount your drivers in boxes in the floor close to that window wall. Every thing would be out of site and allow for a very nice screen/PJ combination. If you consider a 4-6" stage, you could build the IB box into the riser (firing the direction of your choice/open into the garage below). Just thinking out loud.
> 
> If your knee walls have sufficient space to the eve, you could mount the boxes onto them as well (behind the screen wall/back of box open into space).


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## yluko (Dec 6, 2012)

yeah just read the wiki and checked out a few models. Would love to hear them someday


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

A stage really can dress up a room (even more when combined with a riser) when you consider all the options. Breaks up the monotany of the "long" room & just shouts ambionce. Matching the carpeting, wood trim, fabric on the acoutic panels & paint choice. Just really dresses up a room. Part of your screen wall could be a colume on each side that act as your box's (2 front firing drivers each/grill cloth/vaneer the boxes to match the rest of the wood trim....endless options). Gona be a great room!


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## Tedd (Feb 2, 2007)

Have you considered something like a SeymourAV XD acoustically transparent screen? Bigger screen, better speaker placement, and it can hide a lot of av gear from view. You can also further leverage the AT space for some bass traps. You could do a removable window plug to block light. You do need your speakers to be 6" off the backside of the screen material so they don't timbre shift though. 

The absolute best audio demo I have ever heard, was a SACD of Candle In The Wind, with four subs and the mains all behind a perf'ed AT screen. Breathtaking!

As for stereo versus multichannel, the room is acoustically treated differently, so you compromise one or the other, or both formats. One well known design professional's answer is use DPLIIx for stereo music, in a room treated for multichannel.


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## zonecoaster1 (Jan 23, 2014)

I was staring at your photo and knew that I had seen a similar room shape on this site, but couldn't remember where. A little digging turned it up:










It's from NezFF's thread:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...nly/52216-nezffs-new-improved-media-room.html

Towards the end of the thread he shows some of the beginnings of a projector-based setup.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Tonto said:


> A stage really can dress up a room (even more when combined with a riser) when you consider all the options. Breaks up the monotany of the "long" room & just shouts ambionce. Matching the carpeting, wood trim, fabric on the acoutic panels & paint choice. Just really dresses up a room. Part of your screen wall could be a colume on each side that act as your box's (2 front firing drivers each/grill cloth/vaneer the boxes to match the rest of the wood trim....endless options). Gona be a great room!


I really do agree, that is why I am asking, for reasons unknown there just seems to be a mental block in this space and I'm not sure why. As I said, my wife is thinking resale if needed and I am thinking, lets make it nice and if he has to be set back, ok. Matching as you mention really seems a good idea and I do like columns, I even like that ship deck idea, I am a Marine Surveyor after all. :T

I guess it is time to start the drawing board and get planning, I dont have any other big projects other than finishing 2 speakers and then, voila, room time.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Tedd said:


> Have you considered something like a SeymourAV XD acoustically transparent screen? Bigger screen, better speaker placement, and it can hide a lot of av gear from view. You can also further leverage the AT space for some bass traps. You could do a removable window plug to block light. You do need your speakers to be 6" off the backside of the screen material so they don't timbre shift though.
> 
> The absolute best audio demo I have ever heard, was a SACD of Candle In The Wind, with four subs and the mains all behind a perf'ed AT screen. Breathtaking!
> 
> As for stereo versus multichannel, the room is acoustically treated differently, so you compromise one or the other, or both formats. One well known design professional's answer is use DPLIIx for stereo music, in a room treated for multichannel.


I did not even know that they made those screens cheaply, so no I did not consider, Thank You. Might fit in with what Tonto said, screen to each side column. 
I have not heard a perf screen in a home before but I do have a copy of Goodbye Yellow Brick Road on SACD and I do have subs, it is very good isn't it ? I was really impressed with the acoustic only version, clean clean clean. If you like to have your breath taken away, find someone with a copy of Pink Floyd Immersion box set of Wish You Were Here. One of the discs is a Blu Ray version with a 5.1 mix at high bit rate that is, well hard to describe, it is that good. Welcome To The Machine has some bottom end that literally does take your breath away and every now and then has some serious jump factors built in. Kind of reminds me of the Maxell ads from a long time ago. Not to be missed.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

zonecoaster1 said:


> I was staring at your photo and knew that I had seen a similar room shape on this site, but couldn't remember where. A little digging turned it up:


Wow, shades of 2001 batman... I could not get away with that one, actually, I would not be comfortable there, not enough calming stuff for me.

However, I really like how clean it looks and the mains look like they would really make me a believer in some loud undistorted music. I will have to read his thread, Thanks


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## Tedd (Feb 2, 2007)

If you are talking calming stuff, then an AT screen is definitely for you. It removes a lot of visual clutter from a smaller space. 

I personally love that sound system, and how it looks. But I'd prefer my center channel elevated (and identical to the LR mains) with four times the screen real estate, that a DIY woven AT screen would provide. 

Woven AT screen scatter light so the near wall boundaries would need to be dark and light absorbing, to preserve contrast. Some light also passes through the screen so you don't want anything in behind to light up. You also don't want big subs, ports, or large diameter drivers firing onto the screen fabric, as it could ripple. I'd also consider any AT material less then a 1.0 gain, to counter some marketing claims that just don't hold up if one understands screen gain. You also want your speakers at least six inches from the backside of an AT screen, so they don't timbre shift. 

I have a small DVD-A and SACD collection. Not sure if I have Welcome to the Machine since the media collection is all boxed currently, but it's now on the "check if I have list and buy it if I don't" list. 

http://www.electronichouse.com/article/balancing_act_home_theater is a room that's a little unique...


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## yluko (Dec 6, 2012)

I love that look, then again black is my favorite color. I need to hear that 5.1 mix someday, the regular version of welcome to machines is so epic and chilling already. One of if not my favorite pink floyd tracks of all time.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

In the end, it will be a matter of matching/color coordinating. Paint, carpet, treatment covers (ie fabric), furniture. If you do build colums (I highly recommend the stage), I think I would use the same fabric for the SW grills as you will use for your panels (even if you don't do IB, columns will add to the astheics & help anchor the screen wall. And you could add fabric inlays in the colums). Would help tie the room together...and there are some really nice fabrics available.

PS: To me, all that equipment needs to be in the closet. Too distracting. Though I do understand the bragging rights in this hobby! I think is was Socrates that said: "We needs must love the highest when we see it." And who am I to argue with him!


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

On the other hand, if you plan to have a specific location that you move your speakers to for two channel listening, you may not want to do a stage. One thing we learned from the last round of speaker evaluations was that having a stage interfered with getting really deep imaging.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Tonto wants a stage I'm thinking :laugh:
But...I am sorry but I have to pass on that one, ALM is right it does change some things audibly and it is an option that would add money and weight that might run me up against the rail. I completely agree with the color matching idea, no other way to go, so I will have to look into colors that do not mess with the carpet as, it will be staying as well. I have no more bragging rights re the equipment, we moved to an area where we really do not know anyone but our daughter and she could care less of course. So I do like the idea of moving the equipment and there is a nice closet at the rear of the room that I use for equipment I don't use, some blankets and Rock Band stuff that would work very well. I have no clue about RF repeaters and junk but will learn. I like very much the look of the room with the neon colors up the sides and down the ceiling but maybe in a somewhat different way.
I spoke to a home remodeling friend of mine yesterday and we will be starting the plans for the room as he gave me some homework to do today, Cool. 

As far as Socrates, that close, i think it was Tennyson but who is to argue with either guy. I have a better one from someone less famous and wise:

"Thou shouldst not have many blue lights in thy eyes during movies" - Savjac


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Ahhh, you are correct sir! Tennyson it is. I just love that quote, it is one of my all time favorites. It sums up so conceisly what drives some of us in life. 

Please understand that Sonnie's stage is not designed for 2 channel listening. His screen is on the back wall & his stage does not come out into the room enough for proper positioning. That's is where the AT screen comes in. In theory, you would build the screen wall in front of your already positioned speakers (blue tape). You lose some floor space, but you gain the sonic bliss. But I certianly understand you needing to have the room that works for you. I also plan to have my screen on the far wall & pull the speakers out for 2 channel listening. But that is do to my rooms constraints. I would much prefer an AT screen & wall.


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## Tedd (Feb 2, 2007)

I wouldn't do a stage in your space since it'll eat up height, and shrink potential AT screen real estate.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Thanks for the updates and suggestions guys, and Tonto for keeping them coming.

Here is one for you Tonto and the reason I am on this thread....

“I'm not the smartest fellow in the world, but I can sure pick smart colleagues.”
― Franklin D. Roosevelt

I am not sure about many things except that I will be doing something. I am so wanting to do a do over with everything but the electronics that I just may head down that long and lonesome highway. New paint, obviously, new chairs, move the equipment to the closet, vent and cool it, run new cables behind the baseboard, do the new led lighting, new speakers, much more snappy and efficient ones and the front AV wall mentioned. I really want to do clean, three matching front speakers, proper hook ups, cabling that is meant to be the proper length rather than pre-made etc etc, wall covering, a new projector, although not sure, the plasma was kind of expensive and works brilliantly and will sell for next to nothing so we shall see.....Now all I need is a bank or a wealthy girlfriend.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Ok, got some plans in the works, am going to retire some equipment but before I do anything construction wise it seems I have to do some work on the room itself.
I have been playing some very familiar music of late trying to suss the room and equipment and it seems that I may have been blaming some room issues on equipment. I only found this out by bringing out some very familiar recordings and plugging in some old gear that I knew very well. 

It seems with the shape of the room and the padded carpet, one chair and one well stuffed sofa/bed and two small wooden desks at the back wall, my upper mid range and some top end is not being reproduced very well. Some of the life or edge of womens voices is reticent and a good bit of the leading edge on horns, guitars, cymbals, snares etc all seem blunted. I know this is room issues, though I have no idea how to make it better. 
Does anyone think that the REW program would be able to tell me what is going on or is that program for something else ??


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Savjac said:


> It seems with the shape of the room and the padded carpet, one chair and one well stuffed sofa/bed and two small wooden desks at the back wall, my upper mid range and some top end is not being reproduced very well. Some of the life or edge of womens voices is reticent and a good bit of the leading edge on horns, guitars, cymbals, snares etc all seem blunted. I know this is room issues, though I have no idea how to make it better.


And I would say it's a room/speaker issue. 
What you "hear" at the LP is a combination of the speakers 3D response and the subsequent interaction with the room (+ quite a bit of visual, adaptive and memory bank processing). A combination of the onset impulsive response of the system, combined with reverberant effects. The ratio of each dependent of your LP.
The knee-jerk reactionary response is "treatments"...minus any clue about verifiable perceptual science of course.
It seems to me you may well have a bit too much LF sound power with some upwards masking. Maybe even too much HF attenuation/diffusion.
Do you have a pic from the front looking towards the rear LP?



Savjac said:


> Does anyone think that the REW program would be able to tell me what is going on or is that program for something else ??


It will if you understand psycho-acoustics and the correlation with single pressure point measurements.
Vs what 2 ears + HRTF binaural perception "hears". And then, there is "preference". Quite the dilemma eh?

cheers


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

ajinfla said:


> And I would say it's a room/speaker issue.
> What you "hear" at the LP is a combination of the speakers 3D response and the subsequent interaction with the room (+ quite a bit of visual, adaptive and memory bank processing). A combination of the onset impulsive response of the system, combined with reverberant effects. The ratio of each dependent of your LP.
> The knee-jerk reactionary response is "treatments"...minus any clue about verifiable perceptual science of course.
> It seems to me you may well have a bit too much LF sound power with some upwards masking. Maybe even too much HF attenuation/diffusion.
> ...


Thank you for your reply AJ, and I tend to agree with you very much. I actually brought one pair of speakers to a friends house to ensure they were working and they were so that leaves one thing, the room/speaker interface. I cannot think about treatments as I think the way it is shaped and the stuff in there may have over treated it at certain frequencies. I will take a photo of the room loaded on the back side.

I have no clue how to read the graphs but am willing to learn. Yes indeed there is a preference and I prefer a bit of a live sound to the less than live sound I have at this time. The wide range single driver speakers work very well but they are on stands although I am not sure if that makes a difference, this is the first room I have had that is a problem, to my ears that is.

I have thought about bringing stuff into the great room to see how things do there, but I would get in trouble.


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## kevin360 (Oct 4, 2012)

Hey Jack,

I also have a room shaped very much like yours. My knee walls are a foot taller and I have a bit more space, but the shape is very much the same. I think the room works great. Regarding calculations, I spoke with Richard Bird (Rives Audio) and he said to just treat it as a regular shoe box (the most problematic modes are unaffected by the ceiling shape).









We have something else in common - dipoles. Have you tried moving your MLs out to at least 5' from the front wall? Trust me; it makes a huge difference with dipoles. My 3.7s are 9'3" out and my subs are sitting 38% of the way into the room (my listening position is 38% of the way into the room from the back wall). I tried placing the subs in the front corners (and fought the issues it created for a couple of years), but went back to this arrangement and instantly realized how much smoother the bass is without corner loading.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Thank You Kevin, I appreciate the advice. Right now the speakers sit about 4' from the front wall and yes I can pull them out more but I run into a problem in that my display is only 65" at the present time and the further back I go the smaller the image. So it is a tough game we play here. What I am wondering is if a different set speakers might not take care of this issue ?
When I put the wide range speakers in the mix, the sound is very good albeit limited in volume as the Tang Band I used does not have the greatest xmas. Now I am not sure if that is because the driver is off the floor so far or if there is another reason. Any thoughts ?


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## kevin360 (Oct 4, 2012)

Believe me; I feel your pain. The issue is that we need at least a 10ms delay between the direct and reflected sound for our brains to 'ignore' the reflections. Reflected sound that arrives in less than 10ms will result in comb filtering that damages frequency balance. As long as the delay exceeds 10ms, our brains interpret the reflected sound as separate - essentially as information about the listening space. Obviously, test gear will still see comb filtering, but we are 'smarter' than test equipment. You would also benefit from some diffusion on the front wall - doesn't have to be extreme.

Of course, these are the demands imposed by the dipoles and they run contrary to our needs with respect to the video side of the equation. It is obvious from your equipment selection (and some other conversations) that listening to music is a primary consideration (as it is for me). 65" is a large TV (my drop screen in 92"), but once we give the speakers the room they need and place our listening seat an appropriate distance in front of them, we are well beyond an optimal distance from our displays. It's a tough situation. I sit over 17' from my screen and there's another row behind me. Still, it's the most awesome video presentation I've ever owned. My only thought is to move the 65" TV elsewhere in the house and dig deep into your pockets to buy a projector and a drop screen (so that it can be rolled up when listening to music), but that's a painful recommendation to make (much more painful to read).


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Savjac said:


> What I am wondering is if a different set speakers might not take care of this issue ?


I always say YES!! to that . But...



Savjac said:


> Right now the speakers sit about 4' from the front wall and yes I can pull them out more but I run into a problem in that my display is only 65" at the present time and the further back I go the smaller the image.


You don't move back (LP), try just the speakers. Creep say 3-4" forward at a time. Each time, try from pointed (roughly) straight ahead, to heavier toe-ins, where the speaker axes actually cross in front of you.



Savjac said:


> When I put the wide range speakers in the mix, the sound is very good albeit limited in volume as the Tang Band I used does not have the greatest xmas. Now I am not sure if that is because the driver is off the floor so far or if there is another reason. Any thoughts ?


The TB WR has a far more directional HF response than the panel and it's polar response is radically different than the dipole. No surprise there. You are empirically discovering what Toole et al found long ago, off axis/polar matters!
Experiment with placement first, before remotely considering new speakers (unless mine of course)...or worse yet, so called "treatments", which are sure to be recommended.
I do recommend measuring your low frequencies though, from say 500hz on down. Pull 2 of the subs (perhaps the smaller ones?) along with the mains as you go, so that they are at the same, or slightly less radial distance from your LP.

cheers


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Thank You gents
I will pull the speakers out a bit more and give it a go what the , its worth a try. I do not have any deep pockets at this time so anything I buy would have to be covered by the cost of whatever I can sell to replace it. So a projection tv may be out of the question at this time as trying to resell a plasma of this size is not the best option. 

I do tend to crawl around a bit in the room to find where the sound is best and I do play with toe in and have found what I consider to be pretty good sound and imaging but something is just not working. I have always loved my DQ-10's and they still perform wonderfully, but the room/speaker interface is eating up a good bit of the upper midrange to lower treble region, so as to make the music a bit less interesting. I dont think I will be putting them back in the system, too much of a pain and the Mrs. hates the look. 

The subs have not been placed in the photo for best sound or what have you, but have been placed for convenience at this time. 
I will try the suggestions and get back.


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