# Should I get a more powerful amp for my setup?



## zorax2 (Apr 7, 2014)

In other threads I’ve posted that mentioned my speaker setup, I’ve had a number of people comment that I should be using a “better / larger” amp for my speakers (particularly for my mains). I don’t know if they base that more on that I have expensive speakers or whether I truly need a different amp. I’ve read a lot in the amp threads but I’m still feeling that I don’t have enough technical knowledge to determine whether I need a different external amp.

I have a Denon AVR-X4000 receiver with Audyssey XT32. After running Audyssey, my Left, Center and Right trims are set at -6 dB. My typical preferred listening level for movies is between -10 dB and -15 dB though I do run my subs about +8 dB hotter. My room is non-acoustically treated, about 12’ x 16’ with my main listening positon 10’ away from the center channel speaker. The Denon is rated at 125W / channel for all 7 channels driven if all is to be believed. I’m running dual SVS PB-13U subs via the sub out so there is no drain from the subs on the Denon.

My speakers are:

L&R: Kef 203, manufacturer suggested amp of 50 – 200 W, sensitivity 89 dB, maximum output 113 dB, 8 ohms with 3.2 ohm minimum

Center: Kef 202c, manufacturer suggested amp of 50 – 200 W, sensitivity 89 dB, maximum output 113 dB, 8 ohms with 3.2 ohm minimum

Surrounds: Kef 201, manufacturer suggested amp of 50 – 150 W, sensitivity 88 dB, maximum output 110 dB, 8 ohms with 3.2 ohm minimum

Heights: Kef Q300, manufacturer suggested amp of 15 – 120 W, sensitivity 87 dB, maximum output 110 dB, 8 ohms

I’m not interested in necessarily listening louder, I just want to make sure that my speakers are adequately powered to prevent clipping during the typical loud explosion scenes in movies. It seems to me that I’ve got a few choices.

1. Save my money and keep using my Denon’s amp – 125 W is plenty for my listening level and my speakers will be just fine.

2. Get a 3 channel 200W amp (there seem to be a lot of good 200W amps available which also matches Kef’s recommendations for the 203 and 202c) to run the mains and let the Denon’s amp run the surrounds and height speakers.

3. Get a 5 channel 200W amp to also drive the 201 surrounds. Use the Denon amp to run the heights. If so, do I risk any damage as Kef’s 201s maximum recommended amp is 150W?

Thanks for your help!


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## chris0228 (Feb 25, 2014)

You'll get a lot of opinion on this, but if I were in your shoes and you felt that your system was not performing up to your expectation, a three channel amp would be all Id do. Your speakers do have a somewhat lower sensitivity so you will likely hear a pretty big difference in the overall dynamic range of the speakers. The X4000 should be able to more than adequately drive your surrounds. My 2 cents!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Personally if you go with a separate amp you will only need a two channel one for the left and right channels. That receiver wont have any issues with the rest.
That said you may want to look at getting some acoustic panels from GIK acoustics first, you may be pleasantly surprised as to the difference that will make.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

zorax2 said:


> In other threads I’ve posted that mentioned my speaker setup, I’ve had a number of people comment that I should be using a “better / larger” amp for my speakers (particularly for my mains). I don’t know if they base that more on that I have expensive speakers or whether I truly need a different amp. I’ve read a lot in the amp threads but I’m still feeling that I don’t have enough technical knowledge to determine whether I need a different external amp.
> 
> I have a Denon AVR-X4000 receiver with Audyssey XT32. After running Audyssey, my Left, Center and Right trims are set at -6 dB. My typical preferred listening level for movies is between -10 dB and -15 dB though I do run my subs about +8 dB hotter. My room is non-acoustically treated, about 12’ x 16’ with my main listening positon 10’ away from the center channel speaker. The Denon is rated at 125W / channel for all 7 channels driven if all is to be believed. I’m running dual SVS PB-13U subs via the sub out so there is no drain from the subs on the Denon.
> 
> ...


In order to determine if you have enough power we need to know how far away from the speakers you sit. If you were sitting 1 meter from the speakers you would need 2wpch to listen at -10 on your AVR which i am sure your AVR can handle with plenty of room to spare. :T As I recall sound will drop off about 6db for each meter of distance. :T


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## zorax2 (Apr 7, 2014)

ellisr63 said:


> In order to determine if you have enough power we need to know how far away from the speakers you sit. If you were sitting 1 meter from the speakers you would need 2wpch to listen at -10 on your AVR which i am sure your AVR can handle with plenty of room to spare. :T As I recall sound will drop off about 6db for each meter of distance. :T


I'm sitting about 10' (approx. 3 meters) away from the speakers as my main listening position.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I think you have a terrific system.
As far as needing a power amp at the volume you play at, you really don't.
Is your system lacking in any way ?


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

You have a very good system. In theory, 200W vs. 125W is not even 3dB louder. This is without considering power compression. A separate 2ch for the mains could be worthwhile upgrade given the low impedance from the 2 woofers in parallel in the 203.

p.s. Ron is almost correct. 6dB per meter will be lost in the 2nd meter since it is actually 6 dB per doubling distance.


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## zorax2 (Apr 7, 2014)

chashint said:


> I think you have a terrific system.
> As far as needing a power amp at the volume you play at, you really don't.
> Is your system lacking in any way ?


I'm very happy with how things sound - it's amazing and I'm very fortunate. 

I've been under the assumption that I may not even hear clipping at the higher volume level of explosive scenes in movies due to the overall volume especially that of the subwoofers.

My main concern is that I don't do anything that could damage my speakers. I've read that too low of power can damage speakers via clipping but also that too much power blows speakers as the voice coils overheat / melt. I wish I could make better sense of it all. . .


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I am a hardware guy and I absolutely love gadgets, computers, stereo/HT/televisions/speakers.
That includes monstrously awesome audio amplifiers.
While I love this stuff I wouldn't say it's a hobby for me at this point in my life.

I am an engineer and look at things like power amps, wires, DACs.... objectively.
Yes differences can be measured, but those differences are multiple orders of magnitude lower than the next thing you would measure in the signal path.

In your situation I don't know this as fact, but estimaguessing from the information available if you are operating your system as described it is highly unlikely adding an amplifier will do anything to improve the performance of your system.
Depending on which one you would pick it might look really cool sitting there churning out a few Watts and maybe even 100 Watts on a rare peak.
Do you need an amp, probably not.
Do you want an amp??

You certainty have enough investment in your speakers that adding an amp would not violate my ~70/30% rule of ~70% budget speakers 30% budget electronics. 

Whatever you decide, do it because you want to do it and it will bring enjoyment in some fashion.
Don't do it from a position of "fear" you will damage your speakers with the AVR.


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## AU26 (Apr 12, 2014)

Hi Zorax2

If you are listening at -10 to -15dB in your room size of 10' x 12' with all that KEF artillery and SVS sub at +8dB, it must be extremely loud.
I think, from your specification, that you have a very nice audio package and there is no need to go for more power for front speakers set.( Rather think about preserving your hearing and some serious money too.)

Cheers from Australia


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## zorax2 (Apr 7, 2014)

AU26 said:


> If you are listening at -10 to -15dB in your room size of 10' x 12' with all that KEF artillery and SVS sub at +8dB, it must be extremely loud.


Honestly, it doesn't seem loud at all during normal scenes (the room is about 16' x 12'). The sound is crystal clear and very comfortable and I have no problem with my teenage kids listening at those volume levels. The only time it gets truly loud is during intense action scenes or explosions and then the room begins to shake with my dual PB13 Ultras and Clark Synthesis Platinum bass shakers but usually these are scenes typically aren't sustained for more than a minute or two. My daughter in particular does not like "loud" and will tell me so as I prefer to listen at a little bit higher volume.

I recall someone commenting they were at Ed Mullen's (the chief guru at SVS subs) theater and listened to a movie in his theater at reference volume. The comment by the poster was that the sound was incredible without seeming "loud". Apparently Ed has a lot of acoustic treatment in his theater which I don't. I think it might have something to do with the quality of the speakers and upstream components as I have listened to many systems that seem "loud" at relatively low volumes. As an example, turn up the volume of the factory speakers on a TV to a comfortable volume in a large room - now that sounds "loud". Then, try it with a separate quality speaker (I use a Bose Acoustimass and Soundbars - don't laugh!) and it results in comfortable listening without seeming loud. Perhaps someone can explain why this happens.

Thank you all for your excellent suggestions. I'll pass on the amp and enjoy what I have!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Generally loudness is not necessarily the issue. As the volume increases if your room is overly bright those frequencies reflecting around the space can be very harsh. Thats why we recommend people get acoustics dealt with before spending alot on new speakers.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

dgmartin said:


> You have a very good system. In theory, 200W vs. 125W is not even 3dB louder. This is without considering power compression. A separate 2ch for the mains could be worthwhile upgrade given the low impedance from the 2 woofers in parallel in the 203.
> 
> p.s. Ron is almost correct. 6dB per meter will be lost in the 2nd meter since it is actually 6 dB per doubling distance.


I knew it was 3 or 6... Thanks for correcting me. :T

So he should be fine with 50wpc for the levels he is listening at. :T


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

Conventional wisdom states that the front channels should be the priority when adding amps. However, since the center channel in a home heater setup gets the lion's share of the action, it makes sense to me to upgrade that first. It's also the place you're most likely to hear a difference, since that's where dialogue comes from. In my own case, I added 2 separate Emotiva 100 wpc amps to my system, and plan to add an amp for the center ( Emotiva just made available their new upgraded 100wpc mono amp). 
I considered upgrading to their class A on demand amp for the center, but I doubt I'd be able to justify the cost. All that said, your sub will take a big load off of your amps, but if you listen at high volumes to a lot of action movies, adding external amps can be a sensible thing to do.


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

I installed the EMOTIVA XPA3 in just such a scenario / where we knew the LCR was under powered and the results are fantastic / worth the very reasonable $799 - Its on sale now last time I checked....


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

RTS100x5 said:


> I installed the EMOTIVA XPA3 in just such a scenario / where we knew the LCR was under powered and the results are fantastic / worth the very reasonable $799 - Its on sale now last time I checked....


Yes, Emotiva makes some of the best bang for the buck amps out there, along with good customer service. It can make sense to get a receiver of modest cost that has preamp outs and mate them with either Emotiva or Outlaw amps. So much of the cost of receivers is in the amps and the single power supply must supply juice to up to seven speakers. Even high end receivers can benefit from the assist.


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## zorax2 (Apr 7, 2014)

Thanks to all of you, I've found myself a better way to improve my sound quality - acoustic treatments!

I'm going to spend about $1,200 on treatments from GIK Acoustics including some GIK 242 Panels, a couple of GIK Monster Bass Traps with FlexRange technology and a couple GIK Soffit Traps. Hopefully this will maximize the use of my available funds while making a more substantial impact on sound quality than by adding more powerful amp.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

zorax2 said:


> Thanks to all of you, I've found myself a better way to improve my sound quality - acoustic treatments!
> 
> I'm going to spend about $1,200 on treatments from GIK Acoustics including some GIK 242 Panels, a couple of GIK Monster Bass Traps with FlexRange technology and a couple GIK Soffit Traps. Hopefully this will maximize the use of my available funds while making a more substantial impact on sound quality than by adding more powerful amp.


Post up what you think about your setup in a properly treated room. :T


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

Maybe you already have it, but I found the book "Sound Reproduction" by Floyd Toole to be a good audio investment too. It should help with placement of the speakers and acoustic treatment.


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## phillihp23 (Mar 14, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> Generally loudness is not necessarily the issue. As the volume increases if your room is overly bright those frequencies reflecting around the space can be very harsh. Thats why we recommend people get acoustics dealt with before spending alot on new speakers.


:T
I didn't exactly follow this advice with my room build, but in the end I ended up doing accoustic panels. And like tony says its all the reflecting in the room that makes the audio harsh and loud sounding. Once proper acoustic treatment is completed the audio sounds cleaner and by this nature you can turn the dbs up and still comfortably listen.


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

Have you thought of pro audio amps, like a Crown XLS2000 or the CT4150 / CT8150?


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

My room did sound harsh at higher volume levels. I then added acoustical panels for side walls & ceiling panels to catch ceiling reflections. The improvement was profound. Higher volume levels no longer sounded harsh I in fact I had to increase volume to get it to a confortable level.


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

Dwight Angus said:


> My room did sound harsh at higher volume levels. I then added acoustical panels for side walls & ceiling panels to catch ceiling reflections. The improvement was profound. Higher volume levels no longer sounded harsh I in fact I had to increase volume to get it to a confortable level.


That's a great testimonial to the benefits of room treatment. Thanks for sharing!


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## AU26 (Apr 12, 2014)

Hi Dwight

From your speakers specification you have a very interesting combination. No separate Sub(s) so that means plenty of low frequency spectrum provided by your Goldenear Triton. Tell us something about it. What was that you are chasing when selecting Trinton. In my case, I went for Martin Logan's ElectroMotion ESL pair as I didn't get that ear piercing effect with them as I did with the rest of auditioned speakers. Goldenear Triton was on the list for auditioning but couldn't find it in Brisbane,Australia a year ago. I have to say that French FOCAL was very close. Cheers from Australia.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

This is the short version of the story

I constructed a front stage in my Home theatre & installed AT screen & knew I didn't have allot of floor space for external subs behind AT screen. The sweet spot for my former subs (prior to stage build)was at the screen wall each sub located about 4 ft in from side parallel walls. I knew this would be the approx location for my new mains. 

At this stage I knew I would require full range speakers with a small foot print. I had read some very favourable reviews on the Triton Ones & setup an appt at my local dealer to audition them. I listened to both 2 channel music & multi channel bd's as my room would be for music/movies. I was really impressed with their huge sound stage & how well they imaged. Wasn't expecting this in a dealer setup.

I have owned them for 5 months now & they sound amazing. I listen to allot more 2 channel music then before so its about 50% music 50% movies & I don't miss the external subs. My Ht has allot of natural room gain. I set volume levels higher then before without any fatigue. Part of this is to do with adding more acoustic panels but when auditioning these speakers at higher volume levels they do not sound harsh at all due to Goldenears HVFR tweeter.

I am adding 6 inch thick monster bass traps this week on rear wall with 6 inch gap to absorb bloated lower bass along with soffit traps just to balance room response.


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## AU26 (Apr 12, 2014)

Very good, thank you.

Just in case you didn't mention word speakers, your "music/movies cave" would sound much more like atomic shelter with 6 inch monster bass traps.

Cheers from Australia


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## creimes (Feb 18, 2015)

My biggest improvement to date in my system was adding external amps to my Yamaha AVR, for me it wasn't just about volume but I noticed everything sounded clearer and not so muffled, I myself will never go back to an AVR, maybe they have gotten better in the last 5 years but I am very happy with a separate processor and amplifier. I say at least a 3 channel amp for your LCR speakers.


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## AU26 (Apr 12, 2014)

A year ago I got myself Yamaha AVR AVENTAGE Series RX-A1030. It doesn't sound bad at all, for the money paid.
So, what kind of amp did you hook up to your Yamaha, and what speakers you have?
I would be very happy to try PrimaLuna tube power amp with my Martin Logan ESL speakers.
During audition ESL has been driven by French DEVIALET, and I was impressed that such tiny amp box can drive power hungry Martin Logan speakers with ease.

Cheers from Australia


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