# Expensive Cables



## asere

Guys I know the topic of expensive cables has been discussed before and from what I've read some have said there is a difference in sound and others have disagreed. I have never used expensive cables to be able to hear them for myself however I ran across Morrow Audio and they claim you will hear a difference. 
I am not disagreeing with them and I am not trying to bash the company I just wanted know if anyone has heard or tried this cables. 

http://www.morrowaudio.com/usedcables.htm


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## rab-byte

I've gone back and forth with respect to cable quality making a difference in sound quality. I've landed at this... 

Cable price is not a good indicator of quality. A good cable at any price will make virtually no difference in performance and zero difference if said cable is carrying a digital signal. If a cable is poorly manufactured or damaged you can/will experience a difference in performance. Even when a cable can improve the sound better speakers will make a bigger difference. But, high end cables really look cool!


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## chashint

IMO it's not even worth the effort of clicking the link to see what they have to say about electrical performance.

Now if you want to buy a cable because it's pretty and you want it that's another story.
It's possible for a cable/wire to be defective and cause sound/video problems.
The most likely symptom being no sound or video or intermittent sound/video.
If a cable or appropriately sized wire is not defective replacing it with a "super" cable/wire won't make a difference in what you see/hear.


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## Talley

I have some morrow audio cables. My uncle recommended them to me as they make a great sound difference compared to even some expensive cables.

My uncle... hmm.. well I would trust his opinion. Not only does he have 30+ years of 2 channel hifi listening but he has his system dialed in to the point where chicago symphony president uses his system as a reference. My uncle has used 30k+ in cabling and when he heard the $40 pair of interconnects from morrow he was floored and has since moved to all their MA3's and some of their reference stuff.

Morrow makes a decent sounding cable.

Cabling makes a difference believe it or not. Don't let someone tell you otherwise. Morrow audio MA1's use a small single core gauge wire that is silver coated and it's beryllium copper. It's small... about a 18 to maybe 20 gauge around there. The plus and negative are twisted and then the only other material is the polyethylene braid outer jacket. It's a thinner material and PE has a dieletric constant of around 2.4.

Your standard PVC jacketing is 5-7. what this means is it adds capacitance to the circuit by forcing the magnetic field back into the copper thus creating resistance.

So... there IS a difference in cables. Period. As an electrician in the petrochemical industry we use special cables for signaling issues and are well aware of these noise issues.


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## tonyvdb

Bmxer241 said:


> Morrow makes a decent sounding cable.


That alone makes me laugh, For interconnects there may be some volatility to those claims but a speaker wire is not going to be susceptible to interference in the range that would be audible. As long as you use the appropriate awg wire for the length of run you would be fine.



> As an electrician in the petrochemical industry we use special cables for signaling issues and are well aware of these noise issues.


understandable in your industry as in mine. Electric motors, ballasts, even large amounts of computers will introduce noise in the power grid however these issues are not prevalent in most homes as the transformers will filter out most if not all of this noise. EMI interference in your home will not introduce that level of noise through your interconnects speaker cables.


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## robbo266317

If I can also add to Tony's reply. 

Capacitance lowers the impedance seen by a source, however at audio frequencies this will be negligible and the claim below is totally incorrect.


> Your standard PVC jacketing is 5-7. what this means is it adds capacitance to the circuit by forcing the magnetic field back into the copper thus creating resistance


As for the fact that they use


> a small single core gauge wire that is silver coated and it's beryllium copper.


 then this would be of no benefit since the skin effect only occurs as you approach radio frequencies. 

Finally what is the measured resistance, capacitance and linear inductance of the cables they use?


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## Peter Loeser

rab-byte said:


> Even when a cable can improve the sound better speakers will make a bigger difference. But, high end cables really look cool!


Well said. And let's not forget what the wires inside most amps and speaker crossovers look like. Plain old black and red 14ga copper wire. _[disclaimer: generalization]_


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## rkeman

Everything makes a difference! The important question is if the difference is significant, and that only you can answer. My personal belief is that the loudspeakers and room acoustics play a far greater role in determining sound quality than the electronics and cabling. The one exception would be electronic room correction - that can have a substantial impact on the sound. Perhaps you could try some of the cables under consideration and report back?


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## tonyvdb

And dont forget the power of persuasion, if you want to believe it makes a difference it will.

In my line of work as a building operator many temperature related complaints are simply solved by making an appearance and telling them you will look into it. Returning a day later and they will usually say its much better even though you did nothing or simply took the cover off on the thermostat and put it back on.


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## Peter Loeser

tonyvdb said:


> And dont forget the power of persuasion, if you want to believe it makes a difference it will.
> 
> In my line of work as a building operator many temperature related complaints are simply solved by making an appearance and telling them you will look into it. Returning a day later and they will usually say its much better even though you did nothing or simply took the cover off on the thermostat and put it back on.


Don't you mean... "calibrated" the cover?


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## tonyvdb

Peter Loeser said:


> Don't you mean... "calibrated" the cover?


I rarely even go that far unless the temperature really is to cold or too hot.


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## willis7469

Peter Loeser said:


> Don't you mean... "calibrated" the cover?


 rofl!!!!!


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## lcaillo

Morrow's claims are rather odd and I find no evidence to support the effects that they refer to. In some ways they contradict themselves and are at odds with most of the electronics industry with the premises of their design.


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## willis7469

Asere, you're naughty. Lol


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## chashint

Ok I clicked the link and it's even worse than I thought possible.
This is a cut and paste from the opening of their theory link....

_1. Cables That Use Stranded Wire:
In stranded wire designs, the strands touch each other hundreds of times at various points along the length of the wire, causing the signal to jump from strand to strand instead of flowing through a continuum. .* The result is a diode effect (like little mV Diodes) at each point where the strands come into contact, *causing distortion of the signal; blurring imaging, soundstage cues, etc_

Absolutely incredible that anyone could publish this as factual electrical theory.
It would be hilarious, but unfortunately the fiction reads much better than real theory does and apparently there is an audience that believes it hook line and sinker.

It's not worth the effort to refute it, if you want these cables buy them they won't hurt anything.


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## chashint

willis7469 said:


> Asere, you're naughty. Lol


I think there is wisdom in these words and I fell for it.


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## asere

I really appreciate everyone's time in replying. Everyone has good valid points. I use plain cables and my system sounds fine to my ears. At the same time from what most have mentioned it seems like cheaper cables will work just fine. I mean no harm for Morrow Audio. I happened to mention Morrow because I came across them on Facebook and what I read seemed interesting.


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## robbo266317

No need to apologise for manufacturers claims, they all do it!
The audio industry is an open slather for preposterous statements that are usually wrapped in techno-babble to sell their products. They rely on the fact that the guy on the street doesn't have an engineering background and the placebo effect can be quite significant.


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## Audiofan1

I have Morrow's in my setup speaker and Xlr's and an MAP 2 powercable. If you want to have your question answered try the 39.00 cable and hear for yourself! 

I did :T


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## ajinfla

"Expensive" is not an electrical property.


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## tonyvdb

Audiofan1 said:


> I have Morrow's in my setup speaker and Xlr's and an MAP 2 powercable. If you want to have your question answered try the 39.00 cable and hear for yourself!
> 
> I did :T


Gotta love the Placebo effect. If you want to hear a difference you will. The mind is a powerful thing.
Chances are you did not have the appropriate awg wires in your system before and thats why you think you hear a difference.


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## chrisletts

_" causing the signal to jump from strand to strand"_

aka the kangaroo effect !


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## willis7469

chrisletts said:


> " causing the signal to jump from strand to strand" aka the kangaroo effect !


 yes. On revealing speakers this can sound like a maraca, or rocks in a can. Very problematic.


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## Audiofan1

tonyvdb said:


> Gotta love the Placebo effect. If you want to hear a difference you will. The mind is a powerful thing.
> Chances are you did not have the appropriate awg wires in your system before and thats why you think you hear a difference.


Indeed the mind is a powerful thing and as for "appropriate awg" The one thing about the Morrow's is the use of very small awg solid core wire, the cables they replaced 4yrs ago where a doulble shotgun run with a total awg of around 6 awg and this was bested by a long shot to my surprise so there they have remained . And you should know *denial* is just as powerful as a placebo :rolleyesno::bigsmile:


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## robbo266317

Audiofan1 said:


> Indeed the mind is a powerful thing and as for "appropriate awg" The one thing about the Morrow's is the use of very small awg solid core wire, the cables they replaced 4yrs ago where a doulble shotgun run with a total awg of around 6 awg and this was bested by a long shot to my surprise so there they have remained . And you should know *denial* is just as powerful as a placebo :rolleyesno::bigsmile:


The main thing is that you are happy with your setup so it is worth whatever it cost you. :T


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## TomFord

This is a volatile subject for some. The research I did shows unless you're using a 10k pair of speakers, spending a lot on cables is a waste. The gains on the best available are minimal, around 5% maximum and that's after a severe dent in the wallet. 
I was using Monoprice, yet the copper wiring falling off like snowflakes at time had me intensely looking into alternatives. Majority of I wouldn't consider paying the cost of. Finally found one called Canare 4s11 on a site I heard a lot of good things about in Bluejeans cable. Ordered 30 feet to connect my front 3 channels. Per many sources they are slightly better than a high or the highest priced Monster cables. Taking them out the box and cutting into them you instantly feel a superior quality cable. At $1.35 per foot I was surprised at how much better they were. Also allows for you to bi-wire or bi-amp with the single cable. Cutting into the copper wire was 20x as strong as Monoprice, not a single thread thinking of flaking off. Noticed a nice improvement, not a huge one by any means, just more clear, and precise at certain frequencies. Ordered 50 more feet of it which came in this week

Recommend any of you to try 5-10 feet to simply see the quality I'm talking about.


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## Audiofan1

TomFord said:


> This is a volatile subject for some. The research I did shows unless you're using a 10k pair of speakers, spending a lot on cables is a waste. The gains on the best available are minimal, around 5% maximum and that's after a severe dent in the wallet.
> I was using Monoprice, yet the copper wiring falling off like snowflakes at time had me intensely looking into alternatives. Majority of I wouldn't consider paying the cost of. Finally found one called Canare 4s11 on a site I heard a lot of good things about in Bluejeans cable. Ordered 30 feet to connect my front 3 channels. Per many sources they are slightly better than a high or the highest priced Monster cables. Taking them out the box and cutting into them you instantly feel a superior quality cable. At $1.35 per foot I was surprised at how much better they were. Also allows for you to bi-wire or bi-amp with the single cable. Cutting into the copper wire was 20x as strong as Monoprice, not a single thread thinking of flaking off. Noticed a nice improvement, not a huge one by any means, just more clear, and precise at certain frequencies. Ordered 50 more feet of it which came in this week
> 
> Recommend any of you to try 5-10 feet to simply see the quality I'm talking about.


I bought a 100 ft of the 10awg 2 yrs ago and will agree its very well made! :T


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## istvan

I put my two cents into this conversation about expensive copper. 

Things to keep in mind.

1.Copper oxidizes. 
2. Low voltage signals need well shielded cables through thin wires.

Off the bat you can use lamp cord to connect speakers and compare it to expensive cable and find no difference.
1 year down the road when the acid in the plastic of the lamp cord has started turning the copper green and your interconnects look black the lamp cord will start looking like a bad idea. 

I just set up a 3000$ Turntable and preamp The wire from the turntable to the preamp cost 250$. I could have certainly used a cheaper cable. The signal from the turntable cartridge is measured in millivolts. It travels through a wire that is not much thicker than 3 strands of hair. For good reason. The signal would get lost in a thick cable. A cheaper cable would have worked just as well, for maybe 3 months. Then the copper would begin its slow degradation and the consequences in such a thin line would soon become evident.

Speaker wire (esp thick gauges) degrade slowly. The problem is that we are eased into the degrading quality. We get used to the drop in quality because its insidious.

That is why we pay for good cable. I advise people to check on their speaker cables 6 months to a year for oxidation. If your using cheap cable you can just replace it every year or two and start fresh. In anycase its a good idea to clean, inspect and re-seat all the interconnects at least once a year. 

Who knows. Maybe you'll find you reversed polarity on a surround.


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## Talley

istvan said:


> I just set up a 3000$ Turntable and preamp The wire from the turntable to the preamp cost 250$.


Maybe this is the issue. My uncle who's system I heard uses a $25k turn table with an outboard power module. His total system combined is in the ball park of 200+k. maybe this is why when he showed me I could hear a difference. His system is so dialed in and sensitive that like this matters.

Anyway people can think what they want... yeah most expensive cables are . Some are good. Ironically he has found that the reality cable speaker wiring which is a modest price sounded better then some $3k cables he has before.


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## willis7469

Ok. I'll play along. (Devils advocate) What are the real nuts and volts (sorry had to) of passing a signal 10' from amp to speaker that make the midrange palpable, and the soundstage grow to immeasurable size and the air come electrified with treble etc etc, that proponents of such cables claim. It seems that if all these claims are "real", wouldn't the be measurable with test equipment? For example, if I wanted my car to have more mid range power(2500-4000rpm) I would change the cam profile accordingly, and could measure it on a dyno. I'd be curious I guess to see a cable shootout measured by rew perhaps. (If possible)


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## tonyvdb

istvan said:


> I put my two cents into this conversation about expensive copper.
> 
> Things to keep in mind.
> 
> 1.Copper oxidizes.
> 
> Off the bat you can use lamp cord to connect speakers and compare it to expensive cable and find no difference.
> 1 year down the road when the acid in the plastic of the lamp cord has started turning the copper green and your interconnects look black the lamp cord will start looking like a bad idea.
> 
> 
> Speaker wire (esp thick gauges) degrade slowly. The problem is that we are eased into the degrading quality. We get used to the drop in quality because its insidious.
> 
> That is why we pay for good cable. I advise people to check on their speaker cables 6 months to a year for oxidation. If your using cheap cable you can just replace it every year or two and start fresh.


Copper oxidizes yes but even lamp cord will last many years befor it gets to a point where you have issues. If that was not the case you would not be able to use it as that's a problem with electrical use as well. 
I've got several lengths of inexspencive 14awg speaker wire that I've been using for 15 years and there is no issues at all with the copper other than on the ends and that's easy to fix by simply cutting it back to exspese fresh wire. No need to replace it.


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## TheGimp

Do speaker wires make a difference?

It all depends.

Looking at the cheap all-in-one stereo systems sold at WalMart, that use 18awg wire. I would speculate that changing the wire might make a difference. But, the systems are so cheap it hardly seems worth it.

Speaker wire is system dependent.

My Granddaughters 3W vacuum tube stereo I built uses 16AWG wire with 8 Ohm speakers (Fostek FF125WK) and changing to 14AWG makes no discernible difference.

On the other hand, my sub (PPSL) with two 4 Ohm drivers driven from a DH-200 uses 12AWG wire. 14AWG wire in this situation makes no sense. Too much IR loss.

The longer the wire run, the larger the wire needs to be. Likewise, the lower the speaker impedance, the larger the wire needs to be.

Once you reach a reasonable match for the system, changes (like expensive cables) become inaudible as has been proven over and over again in double blind listening tests.


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## istvan

Running a table lamp and listening to a tweeter pushing 20khz+ are not at all the same thing. I have never seen a double blind listening test that compares oxidized black or green copper cables against new cable. I strongly suspect there would be a noticeable difference in a revealing hi end system. I know there is much hype regarding all kinds of cables. Its not just speaker cables that are hyped. The point I am making is that ANY NEW cable will sound good. The longevity of a cable capable of maintaining positive transmission over time is largely dependent on the quality of the components. Like most things audio it follows the law of diminishing returns vs balance. You should not expect good cables to improve the sound if your amp and speakers are mediocre. You should not buy a 500$ phono cartridge for a 100$ turntable. If you did, you would bring out the noise that turntable produces. I use lamp cord on my surrounds simply because the runs are long and I can't afford a better quality cable. My fronts however have a better quality wire and that's where most of the "action" happens. If your cutting the ends of your wire off because of oxidation how can you be certain there is no oxidation and degradation elsewhere in the wire ?


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## tonyvdb

istvan said:


> how can you be certain there is no oxidation and degradation elsewhere in the wire ?


I can see through the clear insulation, the copper looks just fine. Im using standard 12awg wire on my mains (not low end speakers by any means) and made them look like this. 









So does this mean I now have expensive cables?


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## istvan

So does this mean I now have expensive cables?[/QUOTE]

No.

It means you made your lamp cord look pretty.

Its good you can see through your transparent lamp cord to inspect it. Its what I do. Its what I suggest everyone does at least once a year as well as reseating the interconnects.

Again, higher end speaker cable has more quality control at the manufacture and are made with better components.

All fresh cables sound good. << my first point

More importantly - They don't degrade as fast as lamp cord and you shouldn't be cutting off any ends << my second point

Yes there is a price point. Again, if your dropping 2 grand on an amplifier and 6 on speakers, whats another 500 bucks for some wires to connect them ? esp if you never have to "cut the ends off" for the rest of its life.

Heaven help you if you bought a roll of poorly manufactured lamp cord with chemically imbalanced insulation that leaches acid into the copper and built your wiring into the walls of your listening room.

That would not be pretty.


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## Talley

willis7469 said:


> Ok. I'll play along. (Devils advocate) What are the real nuts and volts (sorry had to) of passing a signal 10' from amp to speaker that make the midrange palpable, and the soundstage grow to immeasurable size and the air come electrified with treble etc etc, that proponents of such cables claim. It seems that if all these claims are "real", wouldn't the be measurable with test equipment? For example, if I wanted my car to have more mid range power(2500-4000rpm) I would change the cam profile accordingly, and could measure it on a dyno. I'd be curious I guess to see a cable shootout measured by rew perhaps. (If possible)



I know exactly what you are talking about and to continue your comparison the problem with doing cams, dyno testing to get real data is that all that data and testing does not tell you how much you "Feel". Just as speaker cables can be tested for resistance, impedance etc it still does not tell you how it "sounds".

Why doesn't everyone use aluminum speaker cable? or pure silver cables? well they do make silver cables but the problem with pure silver is the sound of silver. Silver coated copper is good... copper still has the best sonic capabilities.

in theory you could take the equal sized aluminum cable with matching resistance spec for a copper cable and they would sound the same?... doubt it. Gold plating is ok but produces flat sound and tin is just garbage. pure copper is best.


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## Talley

regular lamp cord is NOT a high grade copper. it does contain impurities. OFHC wiring found in better speaker cables offers a pure copper that is oxygen free. 

Say what you want... I agree... cables differences is nothing and sound is nothing when you have sub 20k worth of gear. for 99% of us and even ME we cannot hear the difference.

start buying stuff like Vandersteen 5A speakers with a pair of Audio Research Ref 600 monoblocks coupled to matching preamps and other gear and you get to where you have $20k in room acoustics to help bring out every bit of detail...

ya then you can hear differences.

again... 99% of us won't. (


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## istvan

I agree. Hey I know there is a lot of snake oil when it comes to speaker wire. I know a coat hanger sounds just as good as Nordost flat ribbon. Its just that 5 years from now that coat hanger will be rust. 5 years from now the oxygen in that copper will react with the dielectric and degrade the high frequency response. You won't hear any difference on the first day for sure. The thing is over time the changes to a cheap cables' response goes down so gradually that - unless you can go back to the first day to compare - you won't notice. By the time you can visually see the copper is green you can be sure you have been listening to a downward slope in sound quality for a while.


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## tonyvdb

I guess I should clarify I do not use lamp cord however lamp cord has to meet certain specifications in order to be used in Canada and Im sure the US. What Im trying to state here is that a roll of oxygen free speaker wire will not break the bank and certainly wont cost the hundreds that some unscrupulous manufacturers charge.


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## Talley

istvan said:


> I agree. Hey I know there is a lot of snake oil when it comes to speaker wire. I know a coat hanger sounds just as good as Nordost flat ribbon. Its just that 5 years from now that coat hanger will be rust. 5 years from now the oxygen in that copper will react with the dielectric and degrade the high frequency response. You won't hear any difference on the first day for sure. The thing is over time the changes to a cheap cables' response goes down so gradually that - unless you can go back to the first day to compare - you won't notice. By the time you can visually see the copper is green you can be sure you have been listening to a downward slope in sound quality for a while.


coat hanger is steel and steel has some 7 times the amount of resistance of copper when it pertains to the frequencies that audio contains. also yes the OFHC oxygen free copper is in existance to prevent oxidation forming on the interior of the wire.

now a bare copper single strang wire is the BEST wire period. the problem?...  you have to insulate it for protection from other wires and people.

morrow audio and many others will use a bare wire with a very thin polyethylene or polyolefin type insulation and then a braided polyethylene sleeve to protect those little tiny wires that barely have insulation.

as an electrician I will confirm... the insulation could be PVC or PE or XLPE type material and it's dielectric constant (the ability to force the magnetic field back into the wire) can create additional resistance. it's based on THICKNESS and usually rated by VOLTS per mil thick. this is why you can take electrical tape and with two raps you have enough for 1000 volts. the problem with that is we usually have to layer alot of rubber and then alot of tape just as a mechanical protection which from an electrical protection is way overkill.

maple shades interconnect uses a PE film over a bare copper strip for a very minimal impact on the insulation.

for anyone that is curious... get a 14 gauge OFHC bare copper wire and very carefully use this for speaker cable as a TEST and don't let it contact with anything. I bet you could hear the difference then.

No stranded... just bare. 14g is a compromise on size for bass/treble. perfect size for 20khz is some 24g while perfect size for 20hz is 6g wire.


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## rab-byte

I think we can separate this debate into three categories:

1) can/do cables construction/materials effect the sonic character, timber, of a sound system?

2) does cable performance decrease over time?

3) assuming one or both of the first questions are true; what price to what improvement is reasonable and what is considered "expensive"?


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## istvan

I have considered this option for my fronts. I also thought of using the ground in the standard house wiring to ground at the amp to resist emf interference. Then someone gave me 50 feet of good quality multi strand copper. I have seen some set ups on the web using what you describe. Interesting to see the freq vs gauge numbers.


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## willis7469

Bmxer, to go back to my dyno analogy. The point was than I CAN feel the difference that the data shows. To translate to testing with REW, if the claim is for example, "more midrange punch", wouldn't that be measurable, and translatable to a graph? Maybe you're right on super mega crazy expensive rigs that these things are audible. Idk. But with today's tech, it seems crazy that a non mechanical thing such as an electrical conduit that will supposedly bring all this stuff out of your speakers won't be measurable in some way. That's what I want to see.


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## Talley

willis7469 said:


> Bmxer, to go back to my dyno analogy. The point was than I CAN feel the difference that the data shows. To translate to testing with REW, if the claim is for example, "more midrange punch", wouldn't that be measurable, and translatable to a graph? Maybe you're right on super mega crazy expensive rigs that these things are audible. Idk. But with today's tech, it seems crazy that a non mechanical thing such as an electrical conduit that will supposedly bring all this stuff out of your speakers won't be measurable in some way. That's what I want to see.


I'm avid in modifications to vehicles and have dyno'd many times in fact just a few months ago. Yes you can feel the difference.

to put it to you like this. better speaker cables might add 3rwhp at peak but maybe a marginal 1rwhp during the entire rpm band. then say a better interconnect would add 2rwhp peak and same 1rwhp during all rpm band. then you do isolation with brass cones and mapleshade blocks or similiar and this may not add any hp at peak but add 4rwhp down load and extend the rpm about 200rpm giving a top end better by 3rwhp.

the point is... each together makes a difference that is not really heard per se just like these mods would indeed make a measureable difference. can you feel 5rwhp gains all across the board... I can. can I feel 2rwhp... no.

now... you do each one of this minor minor differences and then yes you can hear a difference.

My uncle did tell me that your ears cannot go back. you throw on better cables and you don't hear anything.... listen to them for a few weeks then go back and then you can tell.


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## istvan

I use REW for a basic overview of my systems response and to hold the line, so to speak. I cannot imagine a basic sweep measurement coming close to the real world dynamics of music. Music is so much more complicated than a simple sweep. When you consider the variability of speaker construction, power supplies, transmission lines the combinations are endless. Speaker wire IS mechanical in an electrical sense. The initial resistance is important, there is an inductive/capacitive effect. When you combine that with the interaction of the amplifier the response of the speaker and the nature of the materials used you get a sense that any singular measurement of any component means nothing when it comes to how the whole system works together. So its important to understand that when someone says something "sounds good or great" that it is in the context relative to something they have heard before. I do the REW thing and try to keep my system on a level field and you might do the same. Why do the vocals sound better on yours ? REW can't tell you.


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## Talley

istvan said:


> I use REW for a basic overview of my systems response and to hold the line, so to speak. I cannot imagine a basic sweep measurement coming close to the real world dynamics of music. Music is so much more complicated than a simple sweep. When you consider the variability of speaker construction, power supplies, transmission lines the combinations are endless. Speaker wire IS mechanical in an electrical sense. The initial resistance is important, there is an inductive/capacitive effect. When you combine that with the interaction of the amplifier the response of the speaker and the nature of the materials used you get a sense that any singular measurement of any component means nothing when it comes to how the whole system works together. So its important to understand that when someone says something "sounds good or great" that it is in the context relative to something they have heard before. I do the REW thing and try to keep my system on a level field and you might do the same. Why do the vocals sound better on yours ? REW can't tell you.


Well... a snip of data.

The best metals listed from lowest resistivity: http://eddy-current.com/conductivity-of-metals-sorted-by-resistivity/

speed of sound in metals: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sound-speed-solids-d_713.html


You can see TIN is on the bottom of the list on the first link. so... Tin coating... well... kills the highest frequencies due to the skin effect it only increases resistance that is relative to frequency.

the best metals is silver, copper and gold. however now you have to look at the sonic capabilities. copper has the fastest sound out of silver and gold. Beryillium being pretty high itself. However looking at Beryllium it has a higher resistivity so the beryllium copper mixture only has up to 4% beryllium in the BeCu alloy. It's just enough however to increase the speed of sound in copper.

This is why I will always stand by the fact a single core cable (non stranded) made from beryllium copper with a silver coating works best.

I remember it explaining it to me that the silver coating and the skin effect having a higher resistance than copper at higher frequencies helps time align the higher frequencies to match it to the mid/lower frequencies.

now... how does all this measurement stack up to what you hear?... well go spend $100k+ on a perfect acoustic room with sensitive gear and then you'll really hear it. till then your consumer grade equipment and bare walls of a room will never let you hear it.

look at me... i can't even hear mid bass at all with these tiny speakers lol. OH... not to mention the minute you add insulation you degrade the sound quality of wire... the minimal the better. think it's nuts?... try some maple shade cables: http://mapleshadestore.com/feedback_excaliburanalogic.php


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## TheGimp

You don't send sound through speaker wires.

Calculate skin effect at 20KHz. How thick is the silver?

Non-Sense.


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## fschris

My Bose Cubes sound much better using these ... of course I have they 5M length and I bought spares in case the calibration goes out. :rant: Even if I won the lottery this week... I don't think I could ever buy anything more than something from Blue Jeans cables... 
http://www.nordost.com/odin-supreme-reference.php

Odin Speaker Cable:
2M - $26,000/pr
2.5M - $29,000/pr
3M - $32,0000/pr
4M - $38,000/pr
5M - $44,000/pr

Odin Interconnects:
1M - $16,000/pr
2M - $20,000/pr
3M - $24,000/pr

Odin Power Cable:
1.25M - $10,999 ea.
2.5M - $15,999 ea.


----------



## chashint

onder:

:innocent: No, you just stay out of it.

:dontknow:

:devil: But they do not understand how it really works..

:nono:

:innocent: Stay out of it, it never ends well.

:dunno:

:devil: But some things need some 'splaining'.

raying:

:innocent: You just stay out of it, you know 'splaining' it never works.

:devil: If you 'splain it real good and post links to text book articles they will understand.

:innocent: Just stay out of it, you know that Morrow cable page sounds better than the way it actually works.

:devil: it is an engineer's duty to 'splain it better than the snake oil salesman.

:innocent: NO, just stay out of it, the believers don't care about how it really works.

:devil: :surrender: You're right :innocent: the fake theory 'sounds' better than the real theory and the believers don't care.
:innocent: Oh thank goodness he's staying out of it.

:devil:


----------



## willis7469

Chashint = post of the day!


----------



## chashint

Thank you, thank you very much......Elvis has left the building.


----------



## Talley

Well we can all agree to disagree. I myself just bought some Morrow audio interconnects because they were only $40 a pair and thought that was decent. I plugged them in and they work and thats all I'm worried about.


----------



## willis7469

For 40 bucks? I would say that's not so bad. When I was young, and dumb(er) I fell for the monster cable bologna pony ride. 100 bucks iirc. Agreed to disagree... I appreciate all the contributions, still looking for something definitive as to why A+B=c (copper+silver =more low end punch etc)


----------



## informel

chashint said:


> onder:
> 
> :innocent: No, you just stay out of it.
> 
> :dontknow:
> 
> :devil: But they do not understand how it really works..
> 
> :nono:
> 
> :innocent: Stay out of it, it never ends well.
> 
> :dunno:
> 
> :devil: But some things need some 'splaining'.
> 
> raying:
> 
> :innocent: You just stay out of it, you know 'splaining' it never works.
> 
> :devil: If you 'splain it real good and post links to text book articles they will understand.
> 
> :innocent: Just stay out of it, you know that Morrow cable page sounds better than the way it actually works.
> 
> :devil: it is an engineer's duty to 'splain it better than the snake oil salesman.
> 
> :innocent: NO, just stay out of it, the believers don't care about how it really works.
> 
> :devil: :surrender: You're right :innocent: the fake theory 'sounds' better than the real theory and the believers don't care.
> :innocent: Oh thank goodness he's staying out of it.
> 
> :devil:


Exactly how I feel right now, I am going to keep my mouth shut too


----------



## willis7469

istvan said:


> why do the vocals sound better on yours ? REW can't tell you.


 driver selection and crossover, cabinet design, room treatment,?
Agreed, systems are more than the sums of their parts. Maybe rew can't translate these things to a simple graph. But I have to think that for all the dubious claims, that on the output side of ANY cable, differences great enough to cause the "effects" could be measurable. Curious, why don't speaker makers specify cable criteria?


----------



## Talley

willis7469 said:


> For 40 bucks? I would say that's not so bad. When I was young, and dumb(er) I fell for the monster cable bologna pony ride. 100 bucks iirc. Agreed to disagree... I appreciate all the contributions, still looking for something definitive as to why A+B=c (copper+silver =more low end punch etc)


Yes. Their MA1 pair of interconnects is only 40 bucks. I bought two pair and a single for 105 shipped to my door this allows me to preamp the denon and drive the signal to the krell. It would of cost me the same for cheap at best buy.

The coolest thing is you can trade the 40 dollar cable in for whatever model up even the reference and get 40 or 50 percent off as part of the trade up program. spend 40 bucks so later you can save 500 haha.

They have a 60 day trial. It's fool proof NOT to try them.


----------



## TomFord

If you look at almost anything long enough you will find what appears to be a solution. Do enough analysis on a set of #'s and you will find an answer/explanation. 

I'm only a year into owning a home theater system. Have learned, and researched a lot. Speaker quality, followed by speaker quality, type/quality of enclosure, and design of amplifiers, components used, DAC & DSP are the only areas of the gear I would put any substantial thought and time into. In regards to topics like this, believe the best approach is to 'keep it simple stupid'


----------



## AudiocRaver

I love my ears and appreciate that they have shown me levels of sonic detail I never thought possible. But they have fooled me too. My imagination sometimes gets the better of me. So, for the moment.....

forget measurements
forget theory
forget data
.....and answer this one question (stated two different ways):
How do you make sure you are hearing what you think you are hearing? How do you make certain your imagination is not tricking you?

Without some kind of personal means of checks and balances, it starts sounding a lot like wishful thinking. Just tell us how you make sure, for your own sake, not ours, that you really hear the differences you claim that you have.


----------



## suphawut

hi all.. happen to browse around .
Cables indeed make a audible difference even we do a comparison from a pair of normal 16awg (copper) to a "x" brand 16awg (well treated copper) 
not to say using a more costly cables. but end of the setup, well it depends on how much the end user think that is it worth spending that much. 
Cables don't improve the sound quality and it never happen before. Cables will only deliver what you should be hearing.


----------



## Talley

suphawut said:


> hi all.. happen to browse around .
> Cables indeed make a audible difference even we do a comparison from a pair of normal 16awg (copper) to a "x" brand 16awg (well treated copper)
> not to say using a more costly cables. but end of the setup, well it depends on how much the end user think that is it worth spending that much.
> Cables don't improve the sound quality and it never happen before. Cables will only deliver what you should be hearing.


The problem is people will only compare maybe two wires and they don't immediately hear anything so they dispute no difference.

I've yet to see anyone compare three, four, five sets of cables.

Personally... my uncle has swapped a few cables out for me on his system and I could hear a difference. newer cable sounded hollowish kinda tangy. his 8 year old cable from whoever sounded very warm.

and... I trust his judgment and by listening to his system on occasion I know that he indeed has had at any given time a roughly $30k worth of cables in his gear and the funny part.... most all of the super high dollar cables are junk... too much dieletric. He has moved to morrow audio cables, mapleshade cables and his speaker cables are from reality cables and are prototypes of a new set that the owner for reality cable is working on. but if you check out his cables they are not overly expensive.

the key my uncle says... less dialectric and cryo everything and based on my experience I believe it. I use special outlets that are not the norm in high end audiophile world. cheap leviton snap in outlets that have been cryo'd


----------



## chashint

Withdrawn


----------



## fschris

Bmxer241 said:


> Yes. Their MA1 pair of interconnects is only 40 bucks. I bought two pair and a single for 105 shipped to my door this allows me to preamp the denon and drive the signal to the krell. It would of cost me the same for cheap at best buy.
> 
> The coolest thing is you can trade the 40 dollar cable in for whatever model up even the reference and get 40 or 50 percent off as part of the trade up program. spend 40 bucks so later you can save 500 haha.
> 
> They have a 60 day trial. It's fool proof NOT to try them.


thats a good deal...


----------



## Talley

fschris said:


> thats a good deal...


It is... I don't see why people wouldn't try it. 

I promise you a huge difference when I bought a rca pair from best buy just so i can get some 2 channel going until my morrow audio cables came in which was about two weeks later


----------



## Talley

TheGimp said:


> You don't send sound through speaker wires.
> 
> Calculate skin effect at 20KHz. How thick is the silver?
> 
> Non-Sense.


I'd have to check on the silver.

Sound indeed does not go through speakers wires... however frequencies do. Noise on all a/c circuits is a big deal these days... that noise... is frequency dependent.


----------



## suphawut

its not refering to anyone. Cables on the higher price are mostly people playing with Hifi or Pre/Pro. Because its very hard to explain as each individual must experience personally.
my bad English not to let you understand. My practice is always use a normal pair of cables for a demo. then i switch to a pair of better cables and ask my friends or customers : "How? got difference? 
For example, using 'A' cables to "B' cables. B will bring out more details. For $$$ its very subjective, thats why i mention how far or how high they wana spent. As for Low-Mid end system for basic entertainment , just get what is good enough will do. mayb 50% of the price of your system.


----------



## rab-byte

The phrase "statistically insignificant" comes to mind when speaking of resistance on the line at a given frequency. 

By the logic of high end cable companies you would need each driver to be assigned a very narrow frequency range with each cable tailored to that specific driver with length of each cable taken into account. You would need active crossovers going to separate amplifiers. Each of these parts would need to be similarly tuned to support each of these frequency ranges. 

Assuming there was a difference and your hearing was perfect; you would need the mother of all line arrays to be able to distinguish cables effect of sound. And that's perfect world/paper only math in a perfect room with perfect drivers and equipment playing perfect recordings.


----------



## AudiocRaver

If copper degrades so much over time, why don't we have to "re-copper" the wiring in our amps every few years? This is a serious question.


----------



## willis7469

AudiocRaver said:


> If copper degrades so much over time, why don't we have to "re-copper" the wiring in our amps every few years? This is a serious question.


 check your pipes!


----------



## tonyvdb

AudiocRaver said:


> If copper degrades so much over time, why don't we have to "re-copper" the wiring in our amps every few years? This is a serious question.


Simply because it does not. Copper used in electronics only degrades if it is exposed to alot of moisture/humidity. That and if its exposed to air it will oxidize and go green. In your house that better not be an issue LOL
The same goes for speaker wire, it wont change unless you are using it outside.

This whole topic has been shifted to the differences in poor grade copper and what we would normally use for speaker wire.


----------



## TheGimp

The only wire I have seen turn green was some very old (about 30 years old) speaker cable covered with clear PVC. It turned green at the end, but the discoloration did not progress more than about an inch.

I suspect this was due to exposure to moisture along with breakdown of the PVC (chlorine release) , which resulted in copper chloride.

Further in the copper was still bright.

As long as the copper is bright, it is not oxidized or otherwise effected.


I read a recent article from one of the on line Professional Electronics magazines on counterfeit wire. It appears that people are now misbranding wire as well as ICs.

They quote one estimate that as much as 30% of the wire sold in the USA may be counterfeit (eg substituting standard wire for OFC, Agency markings, etc).


----------



## chashint

suphawut said:


> my bad English not to let you understand.


Sorry for the earlier quote, I did not know English was a second language for you.


----------



## TheGimp

Here is an interesting site with references to actual testing of speaker cable, and an example of corroded PVC coated speaker wire:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm


----------



## willis7469

Interesting read. The two most appropriate words were "audio perverts". I laughed so hard. The monster display was completely despicable, and it's why I've become jaded with any claims of esoteric nature. Truth in advertising? What a sham. It really fries me that consumers have to be as educated as the peddlers of goods to know well enough that at the very least they are expected to be so naïve as to fall for the guise of truthful representation. Better sound through advertising....:end rant:


----------



## suphawut

chashint said:


> Sorry for the earlier quote, I did not know English was a second language for you.


not even close to 2nd


----------



## Philm63

istvan said:


> Heaven help you if you bought a roll of poorly manufactured lamp cord with chemically imbalanced insulation that leaches acid into the copper and built your wiring into the walls of your listening room.
> 
> That would not be pretty.


Had to jump into my Way-Back Machine for a second - just didn't want anyone getting the idea that running lamp cord inside of your walls at home was a good idea. Building codes have rules against this sort of thing as it represents a fire hazard. 

...getting off my soapbox now.


----------



## TheGimp

Last night I found a piece of speaker wire with the corrosion from end to end. I will have to measure it, but it is either 14AWG or 16AWG. One wire is tin plated, and does not show corrosion, the non-plated wire has a green tint all along the length.

I wonder if it is worth the effort to test to see if it makes an audible difference?


----------



## rab-byte

Philm63 said:


> Had to jump into my Way-Back Machine for a second - just didn't want anyone getting the idea that running lamp cord inside of your walls at home was a good idea. Building codes have rules against this sort of thing as it represents a fire hazard. ...getting off my soapbox now.


Good call out there+1

Good 16awg wire adds about 0.004ohm of resistance to a circuit and caps out at about 22amps. The issue is at as that much power goes through the wire it gets very hot and as heat rises your resistance rises and your heat rises even faster. 

So yeah romex for power every time and as a side note to that low voltage wire should be UL rated for in-wall/under carpet runs. 

A little off topic but at this point should be made often.


----------



## Talley

I ran 10 dedicated circuits for my AV room and although I did run 3 circuits of romex I tried to stay away from it. most all of your romex contains PVC insulation w/ PVC jacket. Instead I ran TC cable with a XHHW insulation (XLPE) with a XLPE/PVC outer jacket. Better dialectric. 

Does it make a difference... who knows... I got the wire for free from work  I don't know anyone that runs a 65 feet circuit for an amp with #4awg but I did  Can you say voltage drop?... I can't hehe.


----------



## AudiocRaver

One thing I will agree on that all of us end up doing at some point is

If there is a change or improvement that "should" make a difference according to some theory or idea
I will feel better having made the change - call it peace of mind if nothing else
It is easy and free or very cheap to do it
There is no obvious down side (safety, etc.)
then by all means do it. I try to be careful making grand claims about its effects, though. Enough to say "I felt like it."


----------



## chashint

AudiocRaver said:


> Enough to say "I felt like it."


Absolutely this is the best reason in the world when it comes to playing with HiFi/HT.


----------



## 2x6spds

I have a 5 wpc SET tube amp driving my favorite 2.1 channel system. The sound quality, to my ears, is wonderful. I swapped out some 14 AWG OFC clear plastic insulated speaker wire (Home Depot I think) with some weird, ultra thin, stiff and difficult to work with, Mapleshade Clearview Double Golden Helix Plus (I love to type that) speaker wire.

I like the sound with the weird wire better. My understanding of electricity is limited ... Don't take electrical appliances into the bathtub. I don't know why there should be a difference in sound quality between the Home Depot wire and the Mapleshade. The difference? The music sounds more musical. The horns in Mussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain sound more like horns ... more blat, more power, richer. Not a lot, but noticeable. I don't smoke crack but I think I'm hearing things ... better sound quality.


----------



## istvan

How old where the cables you replaced ?


----------



## Talley

2x6spds said:


> I have a 5 wpc SET tube amp driving my favorite 2.1 channel system. The sound quality, to my ears, is wonderful. I swapped out some 14 AWG OFC clear plastic insulated speaker wire (Home Depot I think) with some weird, ultra thin, stiff and difficult to work with, Mapleshade Clearview Double Golden Helix Plus (I love to type that) speaker wire.
> 
> I like the sound with the weird wire better. My understanding of electricity is limited ... Don't take electrical appliances into the bathtub. I don't know why there should be a difference in sound quality between the Home Depot wire and the Mapleshade. The difference? The music sounds more musical. The horns in Mussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain sound more like horns ... more blat, more power, richer. Not a lot, but noticeable. I don't smoke crack but I think I'm hearing things ... better sound quality.


I wouldn't be surprised. Mapleshades are one of the few that get it. The cheapo wire had thick PVC insulation which is a poor dielectric. The mapleshades uses a thin insulated polyolefin insulation jacket. Polyolefin is a better dielectric.

PVC has a higher dielectric number of around 2.5-3 which what that means is it forces the magnetic field back into the copper wire causing resistance.... higher resistance in cable is bad as it reduces the effective size of the cable. Polyolefin dielectric is around the .7 mark so it allows the magnetic field to freely leave the cable and offers less resistance. Think of it as a capacitor... PVC holds more energy inside the cable forcing the original signal to have to "break through" this resistance... with the other cable it freely transfers through.

It's about the best way I can describe it.

The best speaker wire would be one with zero insulation but then that would be very dangerous too.


----------



## istvan

The dielectric effect on sound quality is a myth and only comes into play if you sending 1Ghz signals down your speaker wire - which in audio systems - you do not.


----------



## Talley

istvan said:


> The dielectric effect on sound quality is a myth and only comes into play if you sending 1Ghz signals down your speaker wire - which in audio systems - you do not.


Funny... Dielectric is real and affects 60hz power systems in america. Most of what he has herd though is probably from the cheap cable with the poor dielectric breaking down causing issues where the better cable is new. 

You probably would of heard the same gains just by installing new cable which is why istvan was asking how old where they. When you choose a cable with a good dielectric it's insulating life is typically much longer.

It's the reason why in petrochemical industry we typically use cables that have ethylene-propylene rubber with outer jackets made up of polyethylene which are good dielectrics making the cable have a long service life. Another reason why homes are plagued with noise is the fact they have PVC insulation on their wiring but also contain many appliances that inject DC current into the lines further breaking down the insulation. We are talking on the micro scale of things... it won't affect turning lights on etc.... but audio systems dealing with many frequencies see this breakdown which "can" be audible. All of my wiring to my dedicated theater panel is TC type cable as used in the petrochemical industry.


----------



## istvan

Precisely Talley. My contention is that when A B tests are done on cheap vs expensive cable, they are always done with new wire. New wires will always fall in "the ballpark" when it comes to good electrical transmission. The advantage of better (not necessarily expensive) wire is in the quality of the materials. Better quality of copper, fineness of the copper strands, and a better dielectric jacket that doesn't get dry and stiff over time. Hardware store cable will work fine but will eventually (4-5 years?) will degrade and effect sound quality. It happens so gradually that many will not perceive the change. Its when you replace a cable that has degraded that you hear a difference. Buying new "lamp cord" would likely have the same result. The advantage of good quality speaker wire is in its longevity and the peace of mind that the wires won't be falling apart in their third year.


----------



## Talley

istvan said:


> Precisely Talley. My contention is that when A B tests are done on cheap vs expensive cable, they are always done with new wire. New wires will always fall in "the ballpark" when it comes to good electrical transmission. The advantage of better (not necessarily expensive) wire is in the quality of the materials. Better quality of copper, fineness of the copper strands, and a better dielectric jacket that doesn't get dry and stiff over time. Hardware store cable will work fine but will eventually (4-5 years?) will degrade and effect sound quality. It happens so gradually that many will not perceive the change. Its when you replace a cable that has degraded that you hear a difference. Buying new "lamp cord" would likely have the same result. The advantage of good quality speaker wire is in its longevity and the peace of mind that the wires won't be falling apart in their third year.


Thanks. Your like the only one around here to agree with me lol. Oh well. But yes... I'd say the lamp cord is fine for 2-3 years but would need to be replaced beyond that. 

I personally use inexpensive Belden Brilliance cable available for around $1/ft or less. It's a polyolefin insulation so should last a good while before needing replaced. I plan on replacing my cable around every 6-8 years or so. Not a huge cost since I only use 100 feet.


----------



## istvan

I hear ya. I use 12 gauge Monster cable with a duraflex insulator. I got a 100 feet for free ! I bi-amp my fronts and canters so changing my cables is a real chore. Its been 3 years and the cable is still nice and flexible and the copper still nice and shiny. I inspect and reseat my connections every 6 months or so. I hope to have them for another 3 years.


----------



## AudiocRaver

istvan said:


> I inspect and reseat my connections every 6 months or so.


A wise practice. Most of us wait until something stops working or starts sounding bad. And it can be a pain to track it down.


----------



## asere

Wow! This thread is still active. There are a lot of opinions and loving it. I am no expert and never used expensive speaker cables and most likely never will so I can't comment. I use Home Depot 14 gauge cable for my Primes as suggested by SVS and they sound really nice.


----------



## Lumen

asere said:


> Wow! This thread is still active. There are a lot of opinions and loving it.


As you should... it's the Mickey-Deez of cable threads! :bigsmile:


----------



## Lumen

istvan said:


> I inspect and reseat my connections every 6 months or so.





AudiocRaver said:


> A wise practice. Most of us wait until something stops working or starts sounding bad. And it can be a pain to track it down.


You can go one further to improve signal transfer! Swab the connectors with a good contact cleaner. The tweok-o-philes among us also apply a contact preservative afterward for prolonged protection.


----------



## istvan

asere said:


> Wow! This thread is still active. There are a lot of opinions and loving it. I am no expert and never used expensive speaker cables and most likely never will so I can't comment. I use Home Depot 14 gauge cable for my Primes as suggested by SVS and they sound really nice.


Yes good conversations are like good speaker cables. They don't oxidize or go brittle with age.lddude:


----------



## Talley

I use a copper compound for all my connections.


----------



## istvan

Very Interesting


----------



## MeatHanky

Having good cables is a moot point if you don't have a proper vibration control system, like this $290 block of wood. 

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Fin...ystem-for-Electronics/productinfo/VCS1815EL4/


----------



## JBrax

MeatHanky said:


> Having good cables is a moot point if you don't have a proper vibration control system, like this $290 block of wood.  http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Finished-18x15x4-Vibration-Control-System-for-Electronics/productinfo/VCS1815EL4/


 That's insane! I'm in the wrong line of work.


----------



## istvan

Well that actually may be a concern when playing at volume with tube amps or turntables and disc players. It is definitely "a thing".


----------



## Talley

MeatHanky said:


> Having good cables is a moot point if you don't have a proper vibration control system, like this $290 block of wood.
> 
> http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Fin...ystem-for-Electronics/productinfo/VCS1815EL4/





JBrax said:


> That's insane! I'm in the wrong line of work.


Until you try it... don't knock it. Sounds insane I know and I'm not 100% convinced myself. but my uncle has tried all sorts of dampening/vibration control and tried one of the mapleshades and it convinced him so he actually found a supplier of the "air dried" maple and made a bunch of his own shelves. He has a 4" maple shelf under his turntable and even under his speakers.

To his 40yrs of listening it's made a difference but... I wasn't there to confirm either.

I think Kiln dried may just be as good although they say at the molecular level it's not the same however I plan on buying some 8' long 2" thick maple countertop, several pieces actually and replace the MDF on my rack with the maple and make a bunch of blocks for under the speakers, bluray, amp, xmc and do everything at once and note the difference (if any).

BUT... you guys haven't tried it so I don't get how you can easily knock it. They offer a money back option? TRY IT OUT


----------



## MeatHanky

I know, I know, I was just teasing a bit. Some of these product prices are a bit laughable. There certainly seems to be an impact (good or bad) with isolation, though I haven't personally experimented. I would imagine with damping/isolation and the related products, you're really talking about the effectiveness and frequency characteristics of each product/item. Have you tried something simple like sorbothane pads? You lose points with the audio nerds, but you'll look less crazy to everyone else. 

In the end, audio is really a subjective experience. Unless we're all using anechoic chambers, there's no "one product for all". It's all about what sounds best to you in your room - "more correct" doesn't mean anything if you're not enjoying it. 

So tweak on!


----------



## AudiocRaver

I have to agree with your "try it before you knock it" philosophy, at least trying it in some form. Isolation from vibration can be done in a lot of ways, though, maple certainly is not the only vibration isolation material on the planet.


----------



## Talley

AudiocRaver said:


> I have to agree with your "try it before you knock it" philosophy, at least trying it in some form. Isolation from vibration can be done in a lot of ways, though, maple certainly is not the only vibration isolation material on the planet.


I understand maple is widely used in the musical instrument manufacturing but it's not limited to maple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonewood


----------



## willis7469

Talley said:


> I understand maple is widely used in the musical instrument manufacturing but it's not limited to maple.
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonewood



Yes indeed. Maple makes great drum shells. Good attack but warmer than birch. 
What were the differences your uncle noted?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## istvan

I would try sheets of marine plywood glued together with green glue. 
http://www.amazon.ca/Case-Green-Glue-Noiseproofing-Compound/dp/B000SKWD8Y


----------



## JBrax

I'm not knocking it nor am I knocking others but I can tell you my money won't be spent on those. Maybe after everything along the supply chain has been addressed and someone is trying to squeeze that last ounce of sonic bliss? I'm sure there's a target audience for something like this but I'd guess that crowd has invested far more than I would be interested in spending.


----------



## Talley

JBrax said:


> I'm not knocking it nor am I knocking others but I can tell you my money won't be spent on those. Maybe after everything along the supply chain has been addressed and someone is trying to squeeze that last ounce of sonic bliss? I'm sure there's a target audience for something like this but I'd guess that crowd has invested far more than I would be interested in spending.



That is the exact thing you stated. Stuff like this comes into the the total system package. You don't go spend 2-3k on a receiver, speakers sub and player which to most would be on the upper end on consumer level and then look at at these many isolation products as a viable option that cost several hundreds of dollars each if not 2-3k to treat all of your equipment.... it's really nonsense.

But when you spend 50-100k+ on a system then these tweaks are far more effective to aid in the total system package.

My uncle has maple under the preamp/amps/speakers/deck but again he made these from air dried maple himself. His preamp has the mapleshade block under it though... the only one he bought.


----------



## willis7469

Too much blue sky for me. A $300 chunk of maple is still just maple. I'm trying to get my brain to understand why this magic piece of wood makes a system transcend itself in spite of itself.(except maybe under a turntable, or speakers) I'm trying not to "knock on wood" since I haven't placed any in my system, but it sure seems dubious. I will say, I may never have seen such a beautiful display. In my life. For that, I might buy some.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Talley

You know mapleshades finished products carry a price tag but you can get a bare maple with the brass cones and their iso feets for $135 and it's a 2" thick piece that is 18" x 15" which to my measurement covers most all equipment out there. receiver, bluray treated for less than 300 bucks. 

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Unf...l-Kit-for-Electronics/productinfo/VCS1815EL1/

money back guarentee for 30 days... just buy one piece and stick it under your CD player (bluray if it is) and try yourself.

cmon' guys... 135... we spend that on just a few new releases. Try it don't like it send it back... $135??? It's a no brainer. I'm getting 3 of these exact kits. amp, preamp, bluray. Then I'll get 3 more kits for the front/left/right but will have to buy extra block by itself so I can glue together and have 4" pieces... the extra block of wood by itself is 75 bucks. 75 bucks for a 15x18x2" piece of maple isn't really terrible. 

Of course this will be an unfinished product... you want nice you'll have to pay.


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## willis7469

Talley, I hope you can come back and tell me honestly how big a difference these made in your system. I'm confident it won't be near as good as your treatments that you just installed. For me, I wonder why OEM's don't endorse/manufacture/sell/promote these. I've been on their site for the last 2 hours, and the way they tout the benefits of their products makes me feel like my custom oak cabinet is unlistenable(wow did I just write that?). It really makes me angry. Or this per their site:
VIBRATION CONTROL FOR VIDEO SOURCES AND DISPLAYS

You'll get startling better color and resolution when you mount your cable or satelite HD receiver using our brass footers on air-dried maple platforms. 
You're smart. Doesn't that sound a little dubious to you? 
According to that, I can skip an ISF cal and save money with a cheap display, or that my crummy compressed A/V from dish is gonna be transformed. Sure it is...
Sorry for the rant. I just got upset reading the literature and pointed it in the wrong direction. It just reminds me of "you can replace thousands of dollars worth of equipment with this alarm clock"campaign by a famous rip off company. I hope they work for you. I really do. 
End rant. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## istvan

Well I have some stone under my turntable and thats about it. That picture with the bricks and baskets on the floor would likely increase my wife's decibel level three fold and I would need HER acoustically treated. Basket case comes to mind. The picture of a $20($) dollar 2000's DVD player on a 300$ ($) piece of wood is pretty funny too. I think this idea of vibrations is based on some old ideas. Namely turntable vibration and tube vibration. Turntables are prone to reproduce any vibration sonically, that should be pretty obvious. Its a tiny microphone on a stick in the same room the sound is being produced. I get it. Tube amps can also reproduce vibrations. Tapping output tubes on the amp will make an audible sound. They are also prone to electromagnetic interference, from nearby transformers, cell phones, taxi transmission etc. A piece of wood cannot protect you from that. Back to DVD players. If your like me you own a moderately priced DVD/Bluray player, I have a Sony. Mine is connected to a Pioneer Elite amplifier via HDMI. To simplify I will stick to audio principles only. No sound comes out of my DVD player. Only data. That data was scanned off the disc relatively long before it got to the amplifier. It was tracked and buffered into memory then mathematically checked for errors. If any errors where found the player then attempted to read that section of disk again and if the disk was unreadable due to damage it would use a mathematical algorithm to derive the missing bits of data and then when it was satisfied that all was in order it will release the DATA from the buffer into the HDMI cable to the amplifier. The amplifier then takes that data and rechecked its math to be sure its correct before sending it off to the parts of the digital audio chip that turn it into audible sound. There are many mechanisms DVD players use to correct for tracking and vibration errors. Todays BluRay players are very adept at tracking and correcting for errors. Off course a better quality player will have better components and this is the rub. Why not put the money you spend on maple and birch and buy yourself a nice Oppo ? Here is a PDF on how DVD players work http://www.nt.ntnu.no/users/skoge/prost/proceedings/ifac11-proceedings/data/html/papers/3364.pdf


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## Talley

istvan said:


> Well I have some stone under my turntable and thats about it. That picture with the bricks and baskets on the floor would likely increase my wife's decibel level three fold and I would need HER acoustically treated. Basket case comes to mind. The picture of a $20($) dollar 2000's DVD player on a 300$ ($) piece of wood is pretty funny too. I think this idea of vibrations is based on some old ideas. Namely turntable vibration and tube vibration. Turntables are prone to reproduce any vibration sonically, that should be pretty obvious. Its a tiny microphone on a stick in the same room the sound is being produced. I get it. Tube amps can also reproduce vibrations. Tapping output tubes on the amp will make an audible sound. They are also prone to electromagnetic interference, from nearby transformers, cell phones, taxi transmission etc. A piece of wood cannot protect you from that. Back to DVD players. If your like me you own a moderately priced DVD/Bluray player, I have a Sony. Mine is connected to a Pioneer Elite amplifier via HDMI. To simplify I will stick to audio principles only. No sound comes out of my DVD player. Only data. That data was scanned off the disc relatively long before it got to the amplifier. It was tracked and buffered into memory then mathematically checked for errors. If any errors where found the player then attempted to read that section of disk again and if the *disk was unreadable due to damage it would use a mathematical algorithm to derive the missing bits of data and then when it was satisfied that all was in order it will release the DATA from the buffer into the HDMI cable to the amplifier*. The amplifier then takes that data and rechecked its math to be sure its correct before sending it off to the parts of the digital audio chip that turn it into audible sound. There are many mechanisms DVD players use to correct for tracking and vibration errors. Todays BluRay players are very adept at tracking and correcting for errors. Off course a better quality player will have better components and this is the rub. Why not put the money you spend on maple and birch and buy yourself a nice Oppo ? Here is a PDF on how DVD players work http://www.nt.ntnu.no/users/skoge/prost/proceedings/ifac11-proceedings/data/html/papers/3364.pdf


what if not unreadable from damage but from vibration? So this "mathmatical" formula replaces the original bits with fathomed bits. Wouldn't you think that true original read bits be more accurate than replaced bits by some mathematical algorithm? The debate then would be if there was anything audible.

The CD gets spun around on a chassis that is typically mounted on springs/rubber isolators to aid the laser stays on track and spends less time re-reading errors. I know this is an extreme example but would you stick "any" player on the floor directly in front of a subwoofer to playback music? Probably not... but why?

Why wouldn't you stick your player on the floor in front of the subwoofer? 

I understand that is a crude way of explaining it but by effectively putting the player on a audio rack several meters away from the speakers/floor you effectively produced your own anti-vibration installation. How do we not know that at subsonic frequencies at listening levels produce some sort of subsonic vibration that can cause the laser to have to recheck and/or repair the signal? I know 3 houses down when the neighbors were putting in a pool and the bobcat was driving by the house would vibrate and picture frames on the walls would shake around. 

So... the manufactures install rubber feet on the bottom of the player because it is cheap and effective... how is going the extra step not to produce gains? I understand the cost/performance factor comes into play and then the debate of "is this even audible" is also there. Lets say NO treating your CD deck alone with the mapleshades method is not audible... it's gains are below the threshold of being audible.... but if you did the amp, pre-amp, bluray, speakers... everything lets just say THEN it is audible... albiet not by some super crazy amount like the room treatments but it is indeed audible.... at what point can you say "ok this makes some improvements"?

The fact is... nobody wants to try... nobody wants to spend the money... waste the time... or they lack the higher end more sensitive equipment, clean line power and treated room to even make the subtle differences an audible one. I have an uncle who has taken the time/money/effort to do just this and I admit... his system is alarming good. 15 years ago he laughed at this same stuff. Then he built a dedicated room and applied treatments compared to him having a system setup in a living room and then he started to hear smaller changes.... one by one... I do trust his judgement but again I need to verify myself. Again... I don't even know if it works but I could imagine anything to keep the disc spinning flatter, smoother with the laser to track more accurate can do anything but help keep the original bits in tact and keep the "mathematical alogorithms" out cloning out none original data bits.

Here is an article showing test data of vibration affects on disks. One of it's points shows that when vibration is present the servo motors which keeps the laser tracking on key has to work harder increasing current draw to the servo motors and this alone could have affects on other circuitry within the player. http://www.industrial-electronics.c...ital_data_and_vibrational_jitter_effects.html


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## Talley

willis7469 said:


> Talley, I hope you can come back and tell me honestly how big a difference these made in your system. I'm confident it won't be near as good as your treatments that you just installed. For me, I wonder why OEM's don't endorse/manufacture/sell/promote these. I've been on their site for the last 2 hours, and the way they tout the benefits of their products makes me feel like my custom oak cabinet is unlistenable(wow did I just write that?). It really makes me angry. Or this per their site:
> VIBRATION CONTROL FOR VIDEO SOURCES AND DISPLAYS
> 
> You'll get startling better color and resolution when you mount your cable or satelite HD receiver using our brass footers on air-dried maple platforms.
> You're smart. Doesn't that sound a little dubious to you?
> According to that, I can skip an ISF cal and save money with a cheap display, or that my crummy compressed A/V from dish is gonna be transformed. Sure it is...
> Sorry for the rant. I just got upset reading the literature and pointed it in the wrong direction. It just reminds me of "you can replace thousands of dollars worth of equipment with this alarm clock"campaign by a famous rip off company. I hope they work for you. I really do.
> End rant.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do know that balanced isolation transformers help with video equipment alot... producing a better image. I don't think the gains are comparable to the ISF calibration. Lets say the ISF calbiration improves the image quality by 20%... this may only do 2% and that may or may not be noticeable but again if you do this on 5 pieces of equipment then you end up with 10% improvement and that might be noticable....

Again... I'm skeptical but willing to invest and try especially it's something that has a 30 day money back promise.... however I will treat EVERYTHING at once to see if there is truly a huge gain or not. If not... then I send back and get my money back.


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## istvan

what if not unreadable from damage but from vibration? 

*Then you should get a better DVD player or not watch movies during an earthquake.:unbelievable:
*

So this "mathmatical" formula replaces the original bits with fathomed bits. Wouldn't you think that true original read bits be more accurate than replaced bits by some mathematical algorithm? The debate then would be if there was anything audible.

*They are not " fathomed bits" the numbers are derivved using a mathematical principle called Reed–Solomon.

The bits are fully accurate.

Something like how you derive the numerical values in Suduko puzzles or how magic squares work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_square


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed–Solomon_error_correction*

The CD gets spun around on a chassis that is typically mounted on springs/rubber isolators to aid the laser stays on track and spends less time re-reading errors. I know this is an extreme example but would you stick "any" player on the floor directly in front of a subwoofer to playback music? Probably not... but why?

Why wouldn't you stick your player on the floor in front of the subwoofer? 

I understand that is a crude way of explaining it but by effectively putting the player on a audio rack several meters away from the speakers/floor you effectively produced your own anti-vibration installation. How do we not know that at subsonic frequencies at listening levels produce some sort of subsonic vibration that can cause the laser to have to recheck and/or repair the signal? I know 3 houses down when the neighbors were putting in a pool and the bobcat was driving by the house would vibrate and picture frames on the walls would shake around. 

*Well I agree the DVD player should not be subject to vibration. Early players were not very good. I remember when radio stations adopted CDs to play music. There were all kinds of issues with drop outs and skipping and garbles, and this was broadcast live ! on the air. I assume a broadcast station would not buy cheap players. Since that time there have been many many improvements in both the mechanisms and the electronics in players. You just have to look at the advancements in computers to get a sense of the scale of improvement. Would you use a computer from 1999 ?*

So... the manufactures install rubber feet on the bottom of the player because it is cheap and effective... how is going the extra step not to produce gains? I understand the cost/performance factor comes into play and then the debate of "is this even audible" is also there. Lets say NO treating your CD deck alone with the mapleshades method is not audible... it's gains are below the threshold of being audible.... but if you did the amp, pre-amp, bluray, speakers... everything lets just say THEN it is audible... albiet not by some super crazy amount like the room treatments but it is indeed audible.... at what point can you say "ok this makes some improvements"?

*The improvements to players since their debut goes way way beyond "rubber feet"*

The fact is... nobody wants to try... nobody wants to spend the money... waste the time... or they lack the higher end more sensitive equipment, clean line power and treated room to even make the subtle differences an audible one. I have an uncle who has taken the time/money/effort to do just this and I admit... his system is alarming good. 15 years ago he laughed at this same stuff. Then he built a dedicated room and applied treatments compared to him having a system setup in a living room and then he started to hear smaller changes.... one by one... I do trust his judgement but again I need to verify myself. Again... I don't even know if it works but I could imagine anything to keep the disc spinning flatter, smoother with the laser to track more accurate can do anything but help keep the original bits in tact and keep the "mathematical alogorithms" out cloning out none original data bits.

*I would rather put my money in a better player. With better tracking and error correction and DAC if i'm going for audio straight. It just makes more economical sense. Again, those bits are real. *

Here is an article showing test data of vibration affects on disks. One of it's points shows that when vibration is present the servo motors which keeps the laser tracking on key has to work harder increasing current draw to the servo motors and this alone could have affects on other circuitry within the player. http://www.industrial-electronics.c...ital_data_and_vibrational_jitter_effects.html

*Yes those are factors but that article was written in 2007. Do you want a DVD player from 2007 ? Much has changed. We have telescopes that correct for atmospheric aberration now. I think we must have built better players since 1970.

The Idea of vibration control is valid. Sure, don't put your DVD player on top of you sub. 

Here is my question to you...

If your building a system from the ground up on a budget would you sacrifice buying a better DVD/BluRay player for a piece of wood ?*


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## istvan

Talley said:


> I do know that balanced isolation transformers help with video equipment alot... producing a better image. I don't think the gains are comparable to the ISF calibration. Lets say the ISF calbiration improves the image quality by 20%... this may only do 2% and that may or may not be noticeable but again if you do this on 5 pieces of equipment then you end up with 10% improvement and that might be noticable....
> 
> Again... I'm skeptical but willing to invest and try especially it's something that has a 30 day money back promise.... however I will treat EVERYTHING at once to see if there is truly a huge gain or not. If not... then I send back and get my money back.



I use an Isolation transformer. They do "smooth out" the power spikes and fluxes.


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## tonyvdb

Yay! my entire main floor other than the kitchen has hardwood flooring that means I have a built in isolation :dumbcrazy:


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## Talley

istvan said:


> If your building a system from the ground up on a budget would you sacrifice buying a better DVD/BluRay player for a piece of wood ?[/B]


I'll respond to this... No I wouldn't. I would match all system components to eachother based on price/performance.

I have a 2007 Sony bluray player which is worth nothing but that is because I am still "in progress" of building my system. It currently fits the bill and is effective for it's purpose... however the Oppo 105 will be it's replacement so I see a substantial improvement on all areas both video and audio when I make the swap. So would I stick a piece of wood under a $10 player... NO. Would I stick it under the Oppo... YES...

Or at least I would to see if it works.... which Is why I haven't done the maple blocks yet. it's pointless since my player is cheap. I'm working on my room now... by summer adding a second subwoofer and oppo... this time next year will be replacing the mdf on my rack with maple and doing the maple shelves. Total price for maple shelves on my rack, and the isolation from mapleshades under all components and L/R/C speakers will be under $1000. If I have a decent amp, pre-amp, speakers, Oppo and a treated room. What else would I be able to do to have an improvement without spending exponentially more on better speakers/equipment?

I have Belden Brilliance cable for my speaker cable so investing thousands in higher end cable for some theoretical gains doesn't capture my attention as much as the tweaking of room treatments and vibration control which is something that can have measurable improvements.


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## Talley

tonyvdb said:


> Yay! my entire main floor other than the kitchen has hardwood flooring that means I have a built in isolation :dumbcrazy:


That floor resonates at a frequency...


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## Talley

None of this talk about vibration tells me anything about the other "problem" that could be taking place... internal vibrations within the device due to resonance. Everything resonances to some degree... which turns into a form of vibration. How do I not know that my cdplayer even if it was all the vibration control in teh world under it won't matter because inside the thing is vibrating like crazy because the mainboard resonates at 700hz or something like that.

So there is the other angle to this myth.


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## istvan

Talley said:


> I'll respond to this... No I wouldn't. I would match all system components to eachother based on price/performance.
> 
> I have a 2007 Sony bluray player which is worth nothing but that is because I am still "in progress" of building my system. It currently fits the bill and is effective for it's purpose... however the Oppo 105 will be it's replacement so I see a substantial improvement on all areas both video and audio when I make the swap. So would I stick a piece of wood under a $10 player... NO. Would I stick it under the Oppo... YES...
> 
> Or at least I would to see if it works.... which Is why I haven't done the maple blocks yet. it's pointless since my player is cheap. I'm working on my room now... by summer adding a second subwoofer and oppo... this time next year will be replacing the mdf on my rack with maple and doing the maple shelves. Total price for maple shelves on my rack, and the isolation from mapleshades under all components and L/R/C speakers will be under $1000. If I have a decent amp, pre-amp, speakers, Oppo and a treated room. What else would I be able to do to have an improvement without spending exponentially more on better speakers/equipment?
> 
> I have Belden Brilliance cable for my speaker cable so investing thousands in higher end cable for some theoretical gains doesn't capture my attention as much as the tweaking of room treatments and vibration control which is something that can have measurable improvements.



Well it sounds like you will have an elegant looking system with a nice sound. I think that maple will look fantastic.
I personally have a steel rack on spikes with isolated MDF shelves and heavy stones under my turntable weighing the whole thing down. My cheap Sony bluRay player feeds the DAC on the expensive Pioneer Elite SC-25 which also does some video magic.

Just keep away from the baskets and bricks on the floor and egg cartons on the walls


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## Talley

istvan said:


> Well it sounds like you will have an elegant looking system with a nice sound. I think that maple will look fantastic.
> I personally have a steel rack on spikes with isolated MDF shelves and heavy stones under my turntable weighing the whole thing down. My cheap Sony bluRay player feeds the DAC on the expensive Pioneer Elite SC-25 which also does some video magic.
> 
> Just keep away from the baskets and bricks on the floor and egg cartons on the walls


Haha completely agree. I would be doing the maple more for looks. I think it looks nice. Mainly the rack shelves done in maple with a nice clear on them or lightly stained to a darker color would look way better than my current bare MDF.


The only way I see doing the maple isolation blocks is get the oppo, my second sub and finish most all of my room treatments first so that way I've eliminated any of those variables. if I don't hear something dramatic... off they go. 

The room so far has been very dramatic.


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## istvan

Talley said:


> Haha completely agree. I would be doing the maple more for looks. I think it looks nice. Mainly the rack shelves done in maple with a nice clear on them or lightly stained to a darker color would look way better than my current bare MDF.
> 
> 
> The only way I see doing the maple isolation blocks is get the oppo, my second sub and finish most all of my room treatments first so that way I've eliminated any of those variables. if I don't hear something dramatic... off they go.
> 
> The room so far has been very dramatic.


I would like to try two boards glued together with an even layer of green glue. Would be a little tricky getting the layer even. Maybe use a small spacer at each corner and remove them after the glue sets. That I believe would be good isolation and you could probably use plywood with good results.


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## willis7469

Talley said:


> None of this talk about vibration tells me anything about the other "problem" that could be taking place... internal vibrations within the device due to resonance. Everything resonances to some degree... which turns into a form of vibration. How do I not know that my cdplayer even if it was all the vibration control in teh world under it won't matter because inside the thing is vibrating like crazy because the mainboard resonates at 700hz or something like that.
> 
> So there is the other angle to this myth.



Well you're right. What I took away from them was the internal vibrations are basically funneled through the brass an into the wood. Therefore no more vibration. This would theoretically turn the vibration into heat and dissipate accordingly. Or something like that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AudiocRaver

willis7469 said:


> Talley, I hope you can come back and tell me honestly how big a difference these made in your system. I'm confident it won't be near as good as your treatments that you just installed. For me, I wonder why OEM's don't endorse/manufacture/sell/promote these. I've been on their site for the last 2 hours, and the way they tout the benefits of their products makes me feel like my custom oak cabinet is unlistenable(wow did I just write that?). It really makes me angry. Or this per their site:
> 
> You'll get startling better color and resolution when you mount your cable or satelite HD receiver using our brass footers on air-dried maple platforms.
> You're smart. Doesn't that sound a little dubious to you?
> According to that, I can skip an ISF cal and save money with a cheap display, or that my crummy compressed A/V from dish is gonna be transformed. Sure it is...
> Sorry for the rant. I just got upset reading the literature and pointed it in the wrong direction. It just reminds me of "you can replace thousands of dollars worth of equipment with this alarm clock"campaign by a famous rip off company. I hope they work for you. I really do.
> End rant.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Your frustration is understandable. It sounds like the sales pitch (I have not read it) takes a quality that _might under certain circumstances be beneficial_ and universalizes that quality, making it sound like it is _always beneficial._ A favorite tactic of salesmen forever, and many sales pitches all over the web and elsewhere use the same tactic.

It is up to us as A/V consumers to use our noggins and apply the information intelligently. Vibration CAN be a problem, under some circumstances, if not treated. But to treat for it everywhere assuming it will be beneficial is wasteful.

I started to write up a quick answer with some guidance, then I got blabby and it got long, then I decided to start a new thread. It is now a stickie, located here.


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## willis7469

Thanks Wayne. I feel much better now, and I think we agree. The funny thing about the pitch is that it seems (to me anyway) that they're not so much saying "our products will transform your system" as much as saying "by not using our products, you will suffer unlistenable circumstances". Not sure I articulated that very well, but seems like a lot more psychology went into NOT say how much you still need to buy their stuff. That seems dirtier to me. 
I can surely see where more mechanical devices like tube gear, and turntables etc could benefit. Not so much digital/solid state gear. I also agree with your assertion about not using maple for its musical qualities. The point is to balance inertness with absorption. Sorry Talley, but I'm sure they haven't calculated sympathetic frequency propagation as a way to absorb vibration. The point is to make them not make their own music. 
Good sticky too Wayne. 


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## AudiocRaver

Thanks.

It does sound like the advertising and promotion techniques used were both a bit dishonest and definitely manipulative. Getting people riled up in any way shape or form only serves their purposes. Be at peace, it sounds like you are on the right track.

It also sounds like the argument that the same materials are used in fine musical instruments is a misleading and manipulative technique, although the designers may believe it themselves somehow. I cannot absolutely refute the logic, I am simply saying that I do not see it or understand it, and that it sounds completely counterintuitive to me.


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## DqMcClain

willis7469 said:


> "by not using our products, you will suffer unlistenable circumstances". Not sure I articulated that very well, but seems like a lot more psychology went into NOT say how much you still need to buy their stuff. That seems dirtier to me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is the "closing window" technique in sales. It is used to present the sense that the customer is losing something valuable by not taking action. It is highly effective as a psychological tool in this context because people tend to be more motivated by loss than by gain. It's especially important to be aware of this tactic as it is much more commonly employed when the product or service in question has little in the way of value to add to the consumer's experience with whatever. And it "seems" like a dirtier way to sell something because it is. As a general rule, once a sales pitch resorts to this line of reasoning (Your system won't be as good if... or act now because we can't offer [thing] past [time window]) I immediately discount the product as useful and go out of my way to avoid the person/company selling it.


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## rab-byte

DqMcClain said:


> This is the "closing window" technique in sales. It is used to present the sense that the customer is losing something valuable by not taking action. It is highly effective as a psychological tool in this context because people tend to be more motivated by loss than by gain. It's especially important to be aware of this tactic as it is much more commonly employed when the product or service in question has little in the way of value to add to the consumer's experience with whatever. And it "seems" like a dirtier way to sell something because it is. As a general rule, once a sales pitch resorts to this line of reasoning (Your system won't be as good if... or act now because we can't offer [thing] past [time window]) I immediately discount the product as useful and go out of my way to avoid the person/company selling it.


Let's be fair about that. If I really do have one left left and its discontinued/EOL and deeply discounted I would be in the wrong not to mention it. Or if a big sale was ending tomorrow. 

To harp on it or try to cajole someone with this info is different but simply stating a fact isn't inherently tacky.


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## willis7469

rab-byte said:


> Let's be fair about that. If I really do have one left left and its discontinued/EOL and deeply discounted I would be in the wrong not to mention it. Or if a big sale was ending tomorrow.
> 
> To harp on it or try to cajole someone with this info is different but simply stating a fact isn't inherently tacky.



Totally true. As a salesperson, you're supposed to bring sales and discounts to the attention of the buyer. It's a good way to build repoire and repeat business. That's not the same as what dqmcclain said in response to my remark. Showcasing something for its virtues vs making the customer feel like they will have total junk without "xyz" thingy are two different things, as is the "pitch" associated with each one respectively. 


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## willis7469

DqMcClain;1332649And it "seems" like a dirtier way to sell something because it is. As a general rule said:


> past [time window]) I immediately discount the product as useful and go out of my way to avoid the person/company selling it.


Agreed. I think the consumer should be presented the information and then decide on their own without being "sold", or pushed. Sometimes people need help cause they don't know what they want. More head trip won't benefit at all. 



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## Talley

Here's a flipside...

I've mentioned my uncle before... what if he were to come into town and listen to my system and not see all these tweaks and he thinks my system is just "ok" but if he were to come into town and see that I have done all the tweaks and he can see them then magically my system is amazing.

I thought of it like that too...


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## willis7469

The power of suggestion! I presume you mean something like sight bias? 
I see it so I have to hear it! Right?
I'm gonna try and quote savjac's sig. 
For those that believe no proof is necessary. For those that don't no proof is possible. 
I find some truth in there. 


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## AudiocRaver

willis7469 said:


> Agreed. I think the consumer *should* be presented the information and then decide on their own without being "sold", or pushed. Sometimes people need help cause they don't know what they want. More head trip won't benefit at all.


*Should?* According to whom? According to you, or to the person who wants to sell you a bunch of stuff whether you need it or not, or to the person who wants to influence you for whatever reason? Of course I am just funnin' with you here. The principles at work when it comes to manipulative behaviors and influencing people can be a bit twisted. Remember that manipulators are pretty good at convincing themselves that they *should* get you to see things _their_ way for _your_ own good.


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## istvan

What kind of sorcery is this !?


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## Lumen

willis7469 said:


> The funny thing about the pitch is that it seems (to me anyway) that they're not so much saying "our products will transform your system" as much as saying *"by not using our products, you will suffer unlistenable circumstances".* Not sure I articulated that very well, but seems like a lot more psychology went into NOT say how much you still need to buy their stuff. That seems dirtier to me.
> I can surely see where more mechanical devices like tube gear, and turntables etc could benefit. Not so much digital/solid state gear.


You articulated that just fine! 


DqMcClain said:


> This is the "closing window" technique in sales. It is used to present the sense that the customer is losing something valuable by not taking action. *It is highly effective as a psychological tool in this context because people tend to be more motivated by loss than by gain.*


As I've alluded to in the past, I'm an audiophile-in-transition. And here I'm using the darker connotation of the term "audiophile," if you get my drift. That means I'm shaking-off years of misconceptions and myths with the help of the kind and knowledgeable folk here at HTS. *I'm guilty of using isolation/decoupling products solely on reviewer and marketing information. Is that known as faith-based behavior?* The Bright Star Audio products I use (fell for?) incorporate air-bladder platforms (isolation) and sand-filled platforms (coupling) along with heavier (mass-loading) platforms. If memory serves correctly, I believe they were marketed as an isolation/decoupling "sandwich" whose effects were noticed more after removal from the system than by adding them in the first place.


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## Talley

Lumen said:


> You articulated that just fine!
> 
> 
> As I've alluded to in the past, I'm an audiophile-in-transition. And here I'm using the darker connotation of the term "audiophile," if you get my drift. That means I'm shaking-off years of misconceptions and myths with the help of the kind and knowledgeable folk here at HTS. *I'm guilty of using isolation/decoupling products solely on reviewer and marketing information. Is that known as faith-based behavior?* The Bright Star Audio products I use (fell for?) incorporate air-bladder platforms (isolation) and sand-filled platforms (coupling) along with heavier (mass-loading) platforms. If memory serves correctly, I believe they were marketed as an isolation/decoupling "sandwich" whose effects were noticed more after removal from the system than by adding them in the first place.



That is actually what I was told is the best way to test a product... if you want to know if a product works... install it and listen for a few days and then remove the product and listen again.


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## Lumen

Yup, I've heard the same method recommended for power conditioners.


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## willis7469

istvan said:


> What kind of sorcery is this !?



Mwahahaha!!!!!!!


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## istvan

Wow this thread has come along way from Expensive Cables. It now encompasses sales tactics, The Psychology of want vs. need, The placebo effect, and others. 

Well when you toss all that aside and get down to actually listening to the music and getting some pleasure who is to say what the correct formula is. A "sonically accurate" system sometimes just doesn't cut it when you want rock and roll. Ribbon tweeters or Air Motion Transformers ? Coaxial or Horn ? Open box vs Closed box ? A amp, A/B amp? D amp? Tube amp ?

So many choices.

I try to be economical in my choices. Expensive cables and isolation devices come low on my list of priorities when it comes to building my system. They are still on my list. Just not the first thing I think of. They can be the icing on the cake so to speak. I still need a good cake.

I am sure maple or birch have some good acoustic properties but they also look good as shelving. Helmholtz resonators look cool. This 9000$ power bar http://www.dagogo.com/hb-cable-design-powerslave-marble-review/2 will match your ebony wood flooring and look marvellous next to your Steinway Lyngdorf model D's http://steinwaylyngdorf.com/en/products/speaker-series/model-d. ... but I digress.

The point is, and I often have to remind myself, to listen to the music. Instead of constantly changing things.

Now would you like an extended warranty with that ?


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## willis7469

It sure has moved around a lot. So many of these things tie into others, it's hard for a thread like this to stay totally on point. I think I may be the one who opened it up with my rant. Apologies. 
I still appreciate hearing different thoughts from others on this stuff. I, like Lou am shedding some preconceptions. 


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## willis7469

AudiocRaver said:


> *. Remember that manipulators are pretty good at convincing themselves that they should get you to see things their way for your own good.*


*


Yes. I know a couple narcissists like that. Lol


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## istvan

Audio narcissists play the best music - don't you know. Hey. Good name for a band. The Audio Narcissists


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