# Movie where 7.1 is audible?



## aceinc (Oct 24, 2006)

I picked up a pair of Mirage Omni 260 speakers over the weekend and converted my main system from 5.1 to 7.1, documented in another thread.

Now that I have 7.1, what would the assembled masses recommend I watch (listen to) to hear the difference between 5.1 & 7.1?

For those not keeping score, here is my current configuration;

Source: Sony BDP-370 bluray player
Processor: Pioneer VSX-94TXH
Front Amp: Emotiva XPA-2
Surround/Center Amp: Emotiva XPA-3
Rear Amp: Pioneer VSX-94TXH Rear amp.
Main Speakers: KEF 105.4
Center Speakers: DIY
Surround Speakers: Mirage Omni 260
Rear Speakers: DIY
Sub System: DIY, two Dayton Titanic 10" in .6 cu. ft. cabinets powered by an Emotiva XPA-2, one Rythmik Audio DS15. The subs are clustered together.

I understand that the surrounds are not optimized as they are behind the main listening position, and the tweeter is only about 3"-6" above ear level. I was hoping that would be ameliorated by the fact that they are omni directional speakers.

Paul


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

There are a couple of 7.1 bluray releases that are available. Rambo (2008) I know is for certain and I believe Hellboy 2 is as well. 

Other 7.1:
Shoot Em' Up!
Transporter 3


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

War(Jason Statham, Jet Li is 7.1 I believe.


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## Trick McKaha (Oct 7, 2009)

3:10 to Yuma was pretty good for bullets pinging all around. I'd be interested to read your conclusions about the improvement. I haven't found much 7.1 material to make a difference, myself.


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

Check out Toy Story 3. It has a TRUE 7.1 soundtrack(not the normal 5.1 with decorrelated rear channels) with directionality in the rear speakers. Up to this point, we sound mixers have used the rear channels to add space and depth to the side speakers.


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

Trick McKaha said:


> 3:10 to Yuma was pretty good for bullets pinging all around. I'd be interested to read your conclusions about the improvement. I haven't found much 7.1 material to make a difference, myself.


I have done three 7.1 mixes in my career, and both times I chose to use the rear speakers as an extension of the side speakers. I used them mostly to increase the sense of spaciousness, and to extend the soundfield backward behind the head. Every now and then, I would used them discretely, but I found that when done to much, it was distracting to me.


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## ZETEC (May 27, 2010)

I only have 5.1 but Toy Story 3 was pretty impressive. I bet in 7.1 it would be even more fun.
I think the surround was better then a lot of action films I have seen. 

Pan's Labyrinth has some nice 7.1 as well.


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

'Toy Story 3' just came out on Blu-ray Disc. The movie's sound track was mastered in 7.1 for its theatrical release. This is extremely rare. Very few commercial cinemas even have the equipment for 6.1 or 7.1 center back channel sound. Many movie surround tracks are still mixed mono for 5.1 theaters. The cost of mastering a movie soundtrack goes up with every channel added. Lower budget movies may not even offer surround channels. Stanley Kubrick was known to only feature mono sound on many of his films because he knew how screwed up most theaters sound systems were at the time. Some theatrical mixes are remastered for video release and altered to take advantage of more playback channels. Good luck sorting out all the variables and verifying what is actually on any specific disc.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

Alan Brown said:


> 'Toy Story 3' just came out on Blu-ray Disc. The movie's sound track was mastered in 7.1 for its theatrical release. This is extremely rare. Very few commercial cinemas even have the equipment for 6.1 or 7.1 center back channel sound. Many movie surround tracks are still mixed mono for 5.1 theaters. The cost of mastering a movie soundtrack goes up with every channel added. Lower budget movies may not even offer surround channels. Stanley Kubrick was known to only feature mono sound on many of his films because he knew how screwed up most theaters sound systems were at the time. Some theatrical mixes are remastered for video release and altered to take advantage of more playback channels. Good luck sorting out all the variables and verifying what is actually on any specific disc.
> 
> Best regards and beautiful pictures,
> Alan Brown, President
> ...


Alan,
As a working sound mixer for a major studio, we have not done mono surrounds in almost two decades. When Dolby Digital and Dts came along in 92 and 93, almost all mixes have had stereo surrounds. The processors in mono theaters fold down the 5.1 mix to mono or any configuration that fits the theaters setup. 

An upgrade from 5.1 to 7.1 in the theater is a pretty easy transition. The speakers are already there on the rear wall thanks to EX surround, and all they have to do is split the array, add another amp and processor and that is it. The cost is pretty minimal, but there have not been enough theatrical 7.1 mixes to justify the transition and the associated costs. 

A 5.1 soundtrack can be crafted on any budget, so there is no reason a low budget film would not have one. Even made for television movies are done in 5.1, and I cannot think of a single soundtrack made in the last decade that had no surrounds.


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

Sir Terrence said:


> Alan,
> As a working sound mixer for a major studio, we have not done mono surrounds in almost two decades. When Dolby Digital and Dts came along in 92 and 93, almost all mixes have had stereo surrounds. The processors in mono theaters fold down the 5.1 mix to mono or any configuration that fits the theaters setup.
> 
> An upgrade from 5.1 to 7.1 in the theater is a pretty easy transition. The speakers are already there on the rear wall thanks to EX surround, and all they have to do is split the array, add another amp and processor and that is it. The cost is pretty minimal, but there have not been enough theatrical 7.1 mixes to justify the transition and the associated costs.
> ...


I've been told conflicting information by others who also work in your segment of the movie industry. Do you have authoritative industry documentation of a recent survey on this subject? That would be helpful. I don't want to perpetuate outdated/inaccurate information.


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

Alan Brown said:


> I've been told conflicting information by others who also work in your segment of the movie industry. Do you have authoritative industry documentation of a recent survey on this subject? That would be helpful. I don't want to perpetuate outdated/inaccurate information.


They don't really do survey's on this kind of thing, but as a graduate of the USC film school, I have a lot of friends in the industry working in post production houses, and studio post production facilities all over Hollywood, and nobody has done a surround-less mix in years(none can remember when they have done a mono mix). We still do stereo commercials a lot, but that can be exploded into surround via prologic and its variants. The biggest bulk of my freelance work(when I have time for it) has been re-purposing old mono and stereo soundtracks into more modern 5.1 soundtracks when it can be done. Honestly, I have been mixing soundtracks for 25 years, and I cannot remember the last time I did a mono mix. 

Read Mix magazine and Post magazine, these are great sources for what is happening in film sound mixing. TV Technology is a great magazine for sound in the broadcast realm.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Prince Caspian "the lion the witch and the wardrobe" series has a full 7.1 mix and is fantatsic


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> Prince Caspian "the lion the witch and the wardrobe" series has a full 7.1 mix and is fantatsic


This mix is not quite a discrete 7.1 mix like Toy Story is. With that mix, we electronically decorrelated the L/R surrounds and fed that information to the center rear channels. They are not discretely split like Toy Story 3 is.


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

Sir Terrence said:


> They don't really do survey's on this kind of thing, but as a graduate of the USC film school, I have a lot of friends in the industry working in post production houses, and studio post production facilities all over Hollywood, and nobody has done a surround-less mix in years(none can remember when they have done a mono mix). We still do stereo commercials a lot, but that can be exploded into surround via prologic and its variants. The biggest bulk of my freelance work(when I have time for it) has been re-purposing old mono and stereo soundtracks into more modern 5.1 soundtracks when it can be done. Honestly, I have been mixing soundtracks for 25 years, and I cannot remember the last time I did a mono mix.
> 
> Read Mix magazine and Post magazine, these are great sources for what is happening in film sound mixing. TV Technology is a great magazine for sound in the broadcast realm.


Thanks! Your perspective and suggestions are appreciated.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Isn't Pans Labrinth 7.1 also?


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## 1hagop (Apr 13, 2010)

I just received Toy Story 3, but have not had the chance to watch it yet. However, I will second "Shoot em up" great action film and the LFE is good too!


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

tcarcio said:


> Isn't Pans Labrinth 7.1 also?


It is, but it is done just like other 7.1 mixes. The 6th and 7th channels are decorrelated signals from the L/R surrounds. They are also mono as well.


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## aceinc (Oct 24, 2006)

Thanks for all the input. I don't have a large library of Blurays but I do have Hell Boy II, which I actually watched again last week on the system when it was 5.1. I'm going to try it again when I get the chance on the new configuration.

I'll also order TS III from NetFlix when I can as well.

A pawn shop not far from my house has a collection of $10 Blurays. That is where I bought Hell Boy. When looking at the Bluray cases, what can I use to identify 7.1 discs? Is it as simple as looking for 7.1? 

BTW, these appear to be legit blurays with cases, and the fancy paper inserts and all, mostly sealed, haven't found any scratches on any of the ones I bought.

Paul


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## gsmollin (Apr 25, 2006)

Since we have industry pros subscribed to this thread, let me add add a question, with apologies to the OP:

My understanding of surround sound, and especially 7.1 channel, is that it is used to provide side and rear ambience to the soundtrack, in a theater who's acoustics have been designed to have no "ambience" of its own. So a properly designed theater will be largely anechoic and dependent upon the side and rear surrounds to provide whatever was mixed into the master soundtrack. This design allows the director to provide a sound field that may be open and spacious as a cave, intimate as a room, or as dead as the inside of a closet.

Home theaters generally lack anechoic treatments, being multi-purpose rooms. The reflections and resonant modes that these rooms provide will conflict with surround-sound fields, and largely spoil the effect.

Now for the question: Please comment on my understanding, stated above, and also what kind of acoustics would you recommend for a home theater so we could enjoy those 7.1's the way they were intended to be enjoyed. As an example, what waterfall times or R60 should we see from an REW measurement.

Again, my apologies to the OP. I don't want to hijack your thread, so we could move this out after I hopefully get a response.


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

gsmollin said:


> Since we have industry pros subscribed to this thread, let me add add a question, with apologies to the OP:
> 
> My understanding of surround sound, and especially 7.1 channel, is that it is used to provide side and rear ambience to the soundtrack, in a theater who's acoustics have been designed to have no "ambience" of its own. So a properly designed theater will be largely anechoic and dependent upon the side and rear surrounds to provide whatever was mixed into the master soundtrack. This design allows the director to provide a sound field that may be open and spacious as a cave, intimate as a room, or as dead as the inside of a closet.
> 
> ...


I just received this notice today:

_"New Engineering Documents

The following SMPTE Engineering Documents were published during October 2010. Links to the documents in the SMPTE Store are noted below.

SMPTE ST 202:2010, Motion-Pictures—Dubbing Stages (Mixing Rooms), Screen Rooms and Indoor Theaters—B-Chain Electroacoustic Response (Revision of ANSI/SMPTE 202M-1991)

http://store.smpte.org/product-p/st 0202-2010.htm

Extract from Scope
This standard specifies the measurement methods and characteristic electroacoustic frequency response of the B-chain of motion-picture dubbing theaters (mixing rooms), screening rooms, and indoor theaters whose room volume exceeds 125 m (4414 ft). It is intended to assist in standardization of monitoring and reproduction of motion-picture sound in such rooms. The goal is to have constant perceived loudness and frequency response from installation to installation, and from position-to-position within an installation. This standard does not cover that part of the motion-picture sound system extending from the transducer to the input source audio selector." _


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## gsmollin (Apr 25, 2006)

You didn't copy this part: _Our Price: $75.00_. I rather imagine this document is worth every penny to the members of SMPTE, and is authoritative as well. I was hoping there wouldn't be a price tag attached to this info, but it wouldn't be the first time we payed to play.


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## HTLuver (Feb 20, 2010)

I recently watched Daybreakers. I don't know if's discrete 7.1 or matrixed from the studio but WOW there are some scenes where it was very noticeable. The scene that pops out is in the beginning where it's raining when the lead character gets out of the car. My whole theater was raining! Anyone else see this flick in 7.1?


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

gsmollin said:


> Since we have industry pros subscribed to this thread, let me add add a question, with apologies to the OP:
> 
> My understanding of surround sound, and especially 7.1 channel, is that it is used to provide side and rear ambience to the soundtrack, in a theater who's acoustics have been designed to have no "ambience" of its own. So a properly designed theater will be largely anechoic and dependent upon the side and rear surrounds to provide whatever was mixed into the master soundtrack. This design allows the director to provide a sound field that may be open and spacious as a cave, intimate as a room, or as dead as the inside of a closet.


This is correct.



> Home theaters generally lack anechoic treatments, being multi-purpose rooms. The reflections and resonant modes that these rooms provide will conflict with surround-sound fields, and largely spoil the effect.
> 
> Now for the question: Please comment on my understanding, stated above, and also what kind of acoustics would you recommend for a home theater so we could enjoy those 7.1's the way they were intended to be enjoyed. As an example, what waterfall times or R60 should we see from an REW measurement.
> 
> Again, my apologies to the OP. I don't want to hijack your thread, so we could move this out after I hopefully get a response.


I am not sure of a specific R60 time for HT, but I do know the room should not be anechoic like professional movie theaters are. I sit only 5'4" from all of my main speakers in my smallest theater. It only has bass traps in the four corners, and not much of anything else because the closer you sit to your speakers, the less you hear of the room at frequencies over 200hz. The traps were for the bass frequencies, but I am sure they remove some high frequency energy from the room. 

Personally, I think we have been using too much absorption in our HT's, and recent writings from Dr. Floyd Toole support that notion. In all of my HT rooms, I use absorption on the front and rear walls, and some light diffusion on the side walls. Thick pad carpets are on the floor, and I use the furniture in the room to both absorb and diffuse. All of these rooms are great for hometheater, and multichannel music because they are not over treated. If I hear a slap echo, I don't necessarily use absorption. Sometimes diffusion is helpful with that.


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## nholmes1 (Oct 7, 2010)

Absolutely Terrance! Far too many times I have walked into a home theater that has been over treated and it sounds worse than an untreated room. I have had the pleasure of being at a few presentations by Dr. Toole and try to keep that in mind every time I am designing a room.

There is much more science involved in small room acoustics than people realize.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

I'm pretty sure it is a 6.1 matrix mix, but one of my favorite rear-surround scenes is from Gladiator, when he is supposed to be executed in the woods. The sword being thrown pans from front to rear and is a lot of fun.

Rydog, rain is also a great effect when done like that, it's just completely immersive. I believe Se7en also has a great scene in the rain where it can really feel like you're sitting in the middle of a downpour.

Funny, I just looked it up to check, and there are multiple Google hits for lists of the best rain scenes.


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## stenizo (Feb 2, 2011)

"the Golden Compass" has a pretty good 7.1 mix.

"Chris Botti in Boston" is also a 7.1 mix. great SQ.


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## brent_s (Feb 26, 2007)

"Megamind" on Blu-ray is supposed to be the first true 7.1 theatrical->home mix. Probably worth a listen for anyone craving 7.1.


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

brent_s said:


> "Megamind" on Blu-ray is supposed to be the first true 7.1 theatrical->home mix. Probably worth a listen for anyone craving 7.1.


And it sounds awesome!!


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

Uhhhmmmm(clears his throat), actually Toy Story 3 is the first theatrical 7.1 mix to make it onto to Bluray as well, not Megamind. 

http://hollywoodinhidef.com/2010/06/dolby-7-1-toy-story-3-debut/

Nice try Brent...but no cigar for accuracy.


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

stenizo said:


> "the Golden Compass" has a pretty good 7.1 mix.
> 
> "Chris Botti in Boston" is also a 7.1 mix. great SQ.


Unfortunately these two titles are not true 7.1 mixes. A Dolby EX encoder was used to derive the rear center channels, they are not discrete. Matrix encoded channels can not be considered "true" 7.1. but really 5.1+1.


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Sir Terrence said:


> Uhhhmmmm(clears his throat), actually Toy Story 3 is the first theatrical 7.1 mix to make it onto to Bluray as well, not Megamind.
> 
> http://hollywoodinhidef.com/2010/06/dolby-7-1-toy-story-3-debut/
> 
> Nice try Brent...but no cigar for accuracy.


Which also sounds awesome!!!


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## brent_s (Feb 26, 2007)

Sir Terrence said:


> Uhhhmmmm(clears his throat), actually Toy Story 3 is the first theatrical 7.1 mix to make it onto to Bluray as well, not Megamind.
> 
> http://hollywoodinhidef.com/2010/06/dolby-7-1-toy-story-3-debut/
> 
> Nice try Brent...but no cigar for accuracy.


Someone seems to be a bit sensitive. What did I say that was inaccurate? From the S&V article:

"Last Saturday, Dolby Laboratories feted the release of the _Megamind_ Blu-ray Disc, which it says is the first movie released in 7.1-channel sound in theaters and on Blu-ray."

If that statement is not accurate, your issue is with S&V and/or Dolby, not me. However, since Dolby representatives actively participated in both articles, it's worth looking a little closer at both articles. 

The article you linked makes no claims regarding the Blu-ray release's audio, only that TS3 is the first _theatrical _release in Dolby Surround 7.1. OTOH, the TS3 Blu-ray is actually a DTS-HD encode while MM is TrueHD, which could have something to do with the potentially conflicting claims. Maybe the TS3 DTS-HD 7.1 track is an "artificially sweetened" version of one of the 12+ 5.1 theatrical mixes that had to be created in addition to the Dolby Surround 7.1 mix (licensing issue?). Or it could simply be a case of the writers omitting a few key qualifiers from one or both articles. 

-Brent


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

brent_s said:


> Someone seems to be a bit sensitive. What did I say that was inaccurate? From the S&V article:
> 
> "Last Saturday, Dolby Laboratories feted the release of the _Megamind_ Blu-ray Disc, which it says is the first movie released in 7.1-channel sound in theaters and on Blu-ray."
> 
> If that statement is not accurate, your issue is with S&V and/or Dolby, not me. However, since Dolby representatives actively participated in both articles, it's worth looking a little closer at both articles.


Actually Brent, I am not that sensitive, I just know the facts. I can understand how you would think that I was referring to you(both the author and yourself are named Brent), but I was referring to the author Brent Butterworth, not you. LOL 



> The article you linked makes no claims regarding the Blu-ray release's audio, only that TS3 is the first _theatrical _release in Dolby Surround 7.1.


It only addressed the theatrical audio because it was written long before the Bluray release. The Bluray release also includes the same 7.1 mix, just optimized for home theaters. 

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/3887/toystory3_combo.html

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Toy-Story-3-Blu-ray/14836/




> OTOH, the TS3 Blu-ray is actually a DTS-HD encode while MM is TrueHD, which could have something to do with the potentially conflicting claims.


7.1 is 7.1, no matter which codec it is encoded in. 




> Maybe the TS3 DTS-HD 7.1 track is an "artificially sweetened" version of one of the 12+ 5.1 theatrical mixes that had to be created in addition to the Dolby Surround 7.1 mix (licensing issue?).


No chance of this we use one finalized PCM 7.1 mix. The 7.1 PCM mix is for theatrical(Dolby 7.1 which is PCM based), and one for home theater(7.1 DTS-HD Master audio). The additional mixes are for 3D Imax which is a 5.1 system, Disney Digital 3D which is a 7.1 system, 2D 7.1 systems, 2D 5.1 systems, 3D 5.1 systems, other theatrical system configurations, and made for home theater 5.1 and 7.1 mixes. 





> Or it could simply be a case of the writers omitting a few key qualifiers from one or both articles.
> 
> -Brent


Bingo! Hence why I mentioned Brent's(Brent Butterworth not you) rather poor knowledge and editorial skills. He should have known this. In light of the fact that both of you are named Brent, I should have made it more clear who I was talking to.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

I never thought I'd say that I was anxious to watch the latest Bluray of 'The Sound Of Music' (20th Century Fox), but a reviewer from Sound & Vision says great things of the 7.1 soundtrack.
"The two extra channels, used aggressively throughout, are always integral to surrounding you with well-defined instruments. Those channels also assist in echoing chords from the front, as well as locating atmospheric sounds behind you (such as the abbey's organ)."

He also gives very high praise to the video.


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## stenizo (Feb 2, 2011)

Yes, the 7.1 soundtrack of The Sound of Music is worthy of praise. There was a scene in the movie though that I thought the dialogue from center to left speakers was not smooth, kind of abrupt. It could just be my setup. I have to watch and listen again, otherwise the mix sounds great.


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

stenizo said:


> Yes, the 7.1 soundtrack of The Sound of Music is worthy of praise. There was a scene in the movie though that I thought the dialogue from center to left speakers was not smooth, kind of abrupt. It could just be my setup. I have to watch and listen again, otherwise the mix sounds great.


The Sound of Music Bluray was sourced from the original 6 track theatrical magnetic tape prints. This format used 5 screen channels, and a mono surround channel. Aside from the full left and right screen channels, you have half left and half right as well. Since we do not have half left and half right in home theaters, those channels have to be folded into the L/R mains. That is why the dialog does not sound smooth when being panned between channels, it is missing two positions which would keep the panning smooth and even.


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## Roger Dressler (Aug 1, 2009)

Sir Terrence said:


> The Sound of Music Bluray was sourced from the original 6 track theatrical magnetic tape prints. This format used 5 screen channels, and a mono surround channel. Aside from the full left and right screen channels, you have half left and half right as well. Since we do not have half left and half right in home theaters, *those channels have to be folded into the L/R mains*. That is why the dialog does not sound smooth when being panned between channels, it is missing two positions which would keep the panning smooth and even.


Rather than mixing the Lc/Rc channels only into L/R, which widens their positions, would it not have improved the panning result if they were also mixed into the C speaker? I saw a table describing exactly that concept in reference to a SMPTE document related to D-cinema playback. Even if those values are not optimal for a particular title, they could be tweaked as needed.


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