# Krell vs Emotiva



## vvuuren

Need a 3 channel amp to drive my B&W HTM2 diamond and 805's in the rear. Already have Krell EV600e's for the front 802's. Considering Krell EV3250e or even S1500 but have read good reviews on Emotiva power amps. Yes I know there is a big price difference. Anyone did direct comparison? Any ideas would be appreciated.


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## hjones4841

I don't have Krell but do have three Emotiva amps in an 11.2 Audyssey DSX system. I am not sure whether the difference would be audible, that I suppose depends on who you ask and whether or not they believe that amps sound different.

The gain of the XPA Emotiva amps is higher than most other amps, meaning that less signal is required from the pre/pro to drive them. The S/N ratio won't be as high as the Krells. In my system with very high efficiency Klipsch Heritage speakers, there is a slight buzz from the amps when I get within a foot of the speakers. If your speakers are medium to low efficiency you won't hear that at all.

Most folks who buy Emotivas love them and consider them to be great value and highly reliable. I have had mine for about a year and a half and have had no problems whatsoever. Build quality is fine, but I am sure does not compare to the Krells.

So, it all boils down to bang for the buck, and that is where Emotivas win the competition.


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## vvuuren

Thanks for your help.


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## chashint

vuuren,
Do you hear a slight buzzz when you are a foot away from your speaker?
If yes get the Emotiva, if not
.... well you know the answer.


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## vvuuren

Has anyone heard both especially in same system. I would be interested to know if has don AB comparison or have heard both and their impression. I have Krell in my stereo system and love them but can't demo the Emotiva. My wife would love me WAY more if I go with the cheaper power amp bit sound is what counts for me.


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## vvuuren

Ps. It would be paired with a Krell Foundation


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## tonyvdb

Save your money and get the emotiva unless you like spending money on unused power the emotiva will sound the same.


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## chashint

There have been many double blind tests done on many different amplifiers, if the amplifiers are level matched and operated so the least powerful amplifier is not audibly distorting there has never been a case where the amplifiers have been distinguished between each other.

I have seen other reports that the emotivia noise floor is audible close to the speakers at normal listening levels.
It's up to each individual to decide if this is acceptable or not.


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## chashint

http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/


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## paulster

chashint said:


> I have seen other reports that the emotivia noise floor is audible close to the speakers at normal listening levels.
> It's up to each individual to decide if this is acceptable or not.


I have a pair of Emotiva XPR-1s and with my preamp off (to take it out of the equation) and the power amps on you can't hear a thing even with your ear directly on the tweeters. So I'd say the XPR-1 amps at least don't have any audible noise floor.

My PS Audio preamp is noisier than the XPR-1s, but even that's only audible a couple of inches away from the speakers.


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## magic

Just to help clarify the noise floor issue that you are referring to. Was audible on the xpa-5 but it was on highly efficient Speakers 
Eg klipsch 101db.

Normal 87db 90db Speakers didn't have this issue. I have tested this out and on my 99db klipsch it is not audible till my volume reached 0db and Then you can hear it at 6 inches at 1 foot it would be at +5volume 

How I tested:
I tested this by changing the input to an unused one and turning the volume up. 

note:
My other speakers I have are 90db and I hear nothing from them at +12db 

I hope this helps. 
I don't have a problem with this I don't sit that close and I Very rarely listen at this level either 
would I buy from them again. Yes


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## chashint

That is very helpful.
There is a big difference between hearing hiss during silent moments in program material at less than ear bleed levels and hearing it at essentially max volume with no input.
Thank you.


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## LCSeminole

As an owner of the XPA and XPR series power amplifiers from Emotiva, I've yet to hear any hiss with my extremely efficient Klipsch Legend(KLF-20's, KLF-C7) series front stage and Reference series (RB-5II x 4)back & side surrounds. Take note that my first generation XPA-2 & XPA-5 have a gain of 32db and the XPR-2 & XPR-5 are 29db. So in other words the noise is more or less non-existent in my setup.


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## novisnick

I've had several classes and types of Emotiva amps and still do. The only time I've ever heard any noise or buzz I replaced a cable and that was it. Never heard another sound from the speakers but the sound I've played through them. The value of there products are indisputable! " and that's all I've got to say about that "

Peace,

Nick


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## probillygun

I am currently running 3 emo mono blocks on my front 3 speakers and have been doing so for 2 years. One of them failed and I had no sound coming from it so it was sent back (expensive shipping!) Paid for by me and repaired. Also am running a 5 channel on all my surrounds that's worked great. They are great sounding amps that have tight control over speakers. Try the emos on a more neutral speaker and I like them...for a horn speaker there are better choices.


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## hjones4841

probillygun said:


> for a horn speaker there are better choices.


I am using an XPA-5 to drive Klipschorns (yeah, I know, overkill) and am very pleased with the sound. In comparison to driving the K'horns from my Denon AVR-A100 (anniversary edition of the 4311) I found that the midrange was every so much cleaner. And the headroom of the system with the Emos driving the K'horns is fantastic.

Others may disagree, but I am happy.


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## probillygun

hjones4841 said:


> I am using an XPA-5 to drive Klipschorns (yeah, I know, overkill) and am very pleased with the sound. In comparison to driving the K'horns from my Denon AVR-A100 (anniversary edition of the 4311) I found that the midrange was every so much cleaner. And the headroom of the system with the Emos driving the K'horns is fantastic.
> 
> Others may disagree, but I am happy.


that's cool your happy, and I don't think its overkill at all, you don't need that much power for volume but the thing about external amps for me is you can get an amp that changes the sound of the speakers to be better for what you want, for example; I had two of my Emo monoblock XPA-1s on my KLF 30s but I definitely preferred them with my Sunfire wired on the current (Tube like) side...so much smoother and more "Air" from the horn.


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## cavchameleon

I'll have to agree also on the quietness of the Emotiva amps. I have both the XPA2 and XPA3 and they are dead quiet, even with my ears right up on the tweeters. My speakers are on the lower end of the efficiency range (87db) so that may be the reason. I never listen above reference (0db) but tested the noise floor at +12 just to check and still not hiss.


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## novisnick

I have tested many Emotiva amps and have found them reliable and the sound floor,,,,,haven't heard a thing!
I now own XPR-1s and an XPA-5 and all my speakers are quite.
Great gear comes from Emotiva.
Nick


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## vvuuren

Sorry, decided to go with Krell 3250. Very happy so far. Huge improvement in sound from my previous Harmon and Kardon. I'm sure the Emotiva would have been good but paid the extra to keep my amplification Krell.


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## Almadacr

Was not to hard to know where you were headed since your first post . Congratulations .


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## chashint

I am not an amp guy, but if I were to go that route I would rather have the Krell.


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## RTS100x5

I saw the Krell 3 ch used on Audiogone for $3250 ... For that $$ you could have 3x XPA-1's ....
NEW the Krell is $10k which is 3x XPR-1's with $4900 in change .... Not saying there is anything wrong with Krell's product....But I agree one could never pass a double blind audio test between any of these amps ...My choice on any day would be gimme 3x 1000 watt monoblocks and $4900. -tax of course lddude:


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## tonyvdb

Agree, there is no reason to spend that kind of money on an amp. The Emotiva's will do just as good a job.


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## ajinfla

tonyvdb said:


> Agree, there is no reason to spend that kind of money on an amp.


Sure there is. He might enjoy it more than Emotiva. It may actually "sound" better to him.
If what you say was true, Phillipe Patek watches and Lamborghinis wouldn't exist. But they do .
Sometimes, luxury items are just more satisfying, to some. As long as no objective claims of "better" sound waves, etc. are made, all is good.



tonyvdb said:


> The Emotiva's will do just as good a job.


In a blind test, 100% agree.
Everyone here who listens blind (not drunk!) at home daily, please raise your hand.

cheers


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## Sonnie

I shut my eyes... and I don't drink alcohol... does that count?

I think just shutting my eyes makes the sound different (better without a doubt!). I AM SERIOUS!!! 

Hmmm.... wonder if I were to open my eyes on one amp and shut them on the other if I could then hear a difference. onder:


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## tonyvdb

Just stand on your head Sonnie, then both are no name brands Llerk and Avitome. Should still sound the same


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## vvuuren

Yes, I'm the fool who own Krell amps (2x EV600e's and an EV3250 for centre and rears)! To my ears it does sound better. (Listened to lots of different amps). My wife will tell you I really can't afford them. I also spent way too much money to buy a Krell Foundation that also sounds amazing compared to what I owned before. So if all amps sounds the same we can just buy a $300 receiver and save even MORE money! I also spend a lot of money on expensive cables and LOVE them. I might be delusional but I could hear a difference every time I upgraded. It makes me happy so go ahead and make fun of me. When I sit down and listen to my Krell, dCS and B&W's I have fun and that keeps me sane. I forget about work and just listen to the music and not the equipment. Nothing against Emotiva. I think you get VERY good value for money when you buy them but there is a difference!


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## Sonnie

Yes... there may be a difference to your ears, but I would not try to convince anyone that has done AB testing of that... because they will tell you quickly there is not a difference. Spending a lot of money on amps can go a long way to influence your belief that there is a difference.

And not the first person has made fun of you... we were poking fun at ourselves and our abilities. Only facts have been presented to you. I wish I could hear a difference, but then again, I am glad I can't, cause it saves me money. If I could hear it and it was a major difference, then I might be spending more myself.

Btw... a $200 amp _can_ sound just as good as a pair of $14,000 mono blocks... per this proof. There is also a $10,000 challenge for you there in that thread if you are so sure of being able to hear a difference and want to prove it, but if you spent that kind of money on those Krells, I would NOT take that challenge. Actually... you probably shouldn't even read that thread.


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## vvuuren

I won't because I don't have to prove anything to anybody. I'll continue enjoying my music that sounds good to me. I've also listened to way more expensive equipment that didn't sound good to me, maybe it's because I can't afford it!!! Or maybe I just haven't listened to enough cheap stuff.


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## ajinfla

vvuuren said:


> It makes me happy so go ahead and make fun of me.


I do not see anyone here making fun of you. :scratch:
I actually defended your choice, in all sincerity. For exactly the reason you stated...happiness. Only _your_ perceptions need to be pleased.



vvuuren said:


> So if all amps sounds the same...


No one said that either. No rational, informed person would. Now, if a cookie cutter strawman statement was required, well...

Enjoy your subjective perceptions. Make no objective claims about them.

cheers


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## ajinfla

vvuuren said:


> I won't because I don't have to prove anything to anybody.


I haven't seen you make any claims that would require proof.
Your observations are quite consistent with known science too.



vvuuren said:


> I've also listened to way more expensive equipment that didn't sound good to me


Such as?



vvuuren said:


> Or maybe I just haven't listened to enough cheap stuff.


The fact that you are throwing out terms like "cheap" and "expensive", say that far more than "listening" will take place in any analysis you perform. 
Again, quite consistent with humanity.

cheers


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## chashint

I am glad you got the Krell because that is what you wanted, no better reason than that.

It amuses me to no end that the Emotivia owners (for the most part) react to someone purchasing an amp like the Krell with exactly the same arguments as the AVR people use when someone proudly gushes over how fantastic their entry level Emotivia amplifier sounds over their AVR with preouts which is now driving the new amp.


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## Sonnie

I was actually trying to negotiate for a Krell KSA50 last week. Of course I would never pay retail for it (I don't care what it sounds like), and I was hoping to get it at a bargain... but it just didn't work out. I mainly wanted it to compare it to my XPR-5.


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## kingnoob

Sonnie said:


> I shut my eyes... and I don't drink alcohol... does that count?
> 
> I think just shutting my eyes makes the sound different (better without a doubt!). I AM SERIOUS!!!
> 
> Hmmm.... wonder if I were to open my eyes on one amp and shut them on the other if I could then hear a difference. onder:


Yeah I guess some people are picky about brand. b & wilkens diamond floorstanders cost almost 3x price of my car lol


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## Almadacr

kingnoob said:


> Yeah I guess some people are picky about brand. b & wilkens diamond floorstanders cost almost 3x price of my car lol


Does that mean it's time to change your car 

Joking aside i agree with was said before the so call high end speakers that are sold at extremely high prices are a luxury and it's up to us consumers/enthusiasts in audio chouse what can make our boot rock .


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## Krelldog

There's no comparison, Emotiva is a much better built unit than a piece of Krell gear. The Emotiva amps are better in every way that matters. IMO.


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## vvuuren

REALLY? In what world are you living??


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## Krelldog

Sonnie said:


> I was actually trying to negotiate for a Krell KSA50 last week. Of course I would never pay retail for it (I don't care what it sounds like), and I was hoping to get it at a bargain... but it just didn't work out.* I mainly wanted it to compare it to my XPR-5.*[/QU
> 
> I almost pulled the trigger on the XPR-5...what amp were you using before the XPR-5?


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## Krelldog

vvuuren said:


> REALLY? In what world are you living?&#55357;&#56834;


I'm from planet Altair IV, I escaped a few hours before Dr. Morbius hit the self destruct button. :bigsmile:


Actually I'm from NY, about a 2 hours drive from Krell's Factory. Krell's President, Bill, is a great guy, and always a pleasure to speak to in person. Looking forward to my next visit, when my cousin brings his Foundation in for the 4k upgrade. 

Enjoy!


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## Krelldog

kingnoob said:


> Yeah I guess some people are picky about brand. b & wilkens diamond floorstanders cost almost 3x price of my car lol



The 803D's ( towers ) could be bought for $9000.....brand new from a dealer. If those 803 Diamond's are not enough, then you could go with a larger 800 series speaker for around $17000....brand new. Or you can save a ton of cash by buying used. So I'm curious....what car do you own? :bigsmile:
talk to ya soon,!

Enjoy!


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## xtinkshun

Why not buy a Crown X1000 its an A/B amp same as Emotiva but it only costs $99.00. I'll bet you wouldn't hear any difference in a blind test. I'll admit the Emotiva "looks" nicer but no one is looking at my gear just listening in amazement.  I owned and sold my B&W 802D I paid $14k new (the dealer offered a lower price due to how much money I was spending ie speakers and amps) and sold the 802D for $11k 6 years later. Not bad depreciation. I bought 2 McIntosh MC501 for $6k on a-gon and sold for $6k. Moral to the story is that a buyer is always waiting. Keep looking for a deal and buy whatever makes you happy. Ie B&W, Krell, Emotiva etc. p.s. but I'll never spend that much on speakers and amps again. I prefer sound over looks. Those Diamonds did sound amazing though. *sigh*


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## Krelldog

I'm with ya bro! It took me years and years of upgrading to get to the point I'm at now. But I'm content with my current speakers ( PBN EPS2 )....good thing because I'm out of dough anyways

How did the 802D's handle the low frequencies? My friend wants to buy a pair but wants them to be truly full range......thanks,!

Bri


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## xtinkshun

I used the B&W 855 sub. 15" 1000 watt sub. I didn't think the 802D hit hard enough or went low enough but then again they are 8" drivers and meant more for music than HT. I guess you could argue no speaker will play low enough hence the subwoofer.


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## lcaillo

Please keep the thread on the original topic. Please start a new thread for spin off discussions.


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## Krelldog

lcaillo said:


> Please keep the thread on the original topic. Please start a new thread for spin off discussions.


My apologies, then I guess there's no reason to continue discussion on this counter intuitive thread. Krell is in a completely different league than Emotiva. Nothing more to say IMO...:T


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## lcaillo

Actually, there will always be opinions on the matter. I would say that the league that each is in may or may not be different, depending on the individual. For me, they are in the same league because they do essentially the same thing for me, but there may be some small sonic differences. I won't say, because I have not collected the evidence to determine so, but I do suspect that they are competent amps.

Regardless, everyone has an opinion, and we do not have to agree. What we do have to do if we are going to discuss it at HTS is to be respectful of others and their right to differing experiences and views. And keep threads on topic.


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## Krelldog

Yes, I hear ya...sorry for the short rant


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## Krelldog

lcaillo said:


> Actually, there will always be opinions on the matter. I would say that the league that each is in may or may not be different, depending on the individual. For me, they are in the same league because they do essentially the same thing for me, but there may be some small sonic differences. I won't say, because I have not collected the evidence to determine so, but I do suspect that they are competent amps.
> 
> Regardless, everyone has an opinion, and we do not have to agree. What we do have to do if we are going to discuss it at HTS is to be respectful of others and their right to differing experiences and views. And keep threads on topic.



So I guess a wire is a wire, and an amp is an amp. I'd imagine all pre/pro's sound the same as well and offer essentially the same functionality as a modest AVR. What does make an improvement in sound fidelity then? ( _besides the obvious room treatments and speakers_ ). 

To keep on topic, has anyone here closely examined the guts of a krell amplifier and an emotiva? I'd really like to hear some feedback....I'd hate to throw money out the window on unneeded Hi-Fi gear. I'm only concerned about the sound quality, not the chassis... 

thanks guys!:spend:


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## tonyvdb

For the most part the gap between the average good reciver/pre pro or amp and the boutique brands such as Krell has been closed. Good DACs, power supplies and other internal components are being mass produced so much now that everyone has access to them for reasonable prices.
As we are only talking about amps and the difference there is lots of discussion here


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## chashint

I really do not see the logic of comparing Emotiva and Krell.
They service two different markets.
Emotiva is they entry level to external amplification.
Krell is....well....Krell.
Better to compare it to others that service that market. 
DB tests will discern no distinguishable differences between the two nor with a modest AVR if standard DB test protocols are followed. 
Buy what fits your budget and brings you joy.


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## Krelldog

tonyvdb said:


> For the most part the gap between the average good reciver/pre pro or amp and the boutique brands such as Krell has been closed. Good DACs, power supplies and other internal components are being mass produced so much now that everyone has access to them for reasonable prices.
> As we are only talking about amps and the difference there is lots of discussion here



I have a good idea...I'm currently using an Anthem Mrx-300 as a pre/pro only. I will borrow my cousin's Krell Foundation processor and report back after I compare the two in my listening room.


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## Lumen

vvuuren said:


> Has anyone heard both especially in same system. I would be interested to know if has don AB comparison or have heard both and their impression. I have Krell in my stereo system and love them but can't demo the Emotiva. My wife would love me WAY more if I go with the cheaper power amp bit sound is what counts for me.


I have an Emotiva UPA-5, and would love to compare it to a Krell. Any chance we could temporarily swap? :whistling: :innocent:

Getting real... the most useful info I can offer is to compare the sound of my entry-level Emotiva UPA-5 & Emotiva UMC-1 driving two different speaker systems. I know, not apples and oranges, but just wanted to let you know I feel that entry-level combo is quite resolving, and does not homogenize either upstream electronics or source material.

The first speaker set included KEF 105/3 References as the mains with an outclassed PSB B5 center. The second set includes B&W CM9 mains and a CM2 center. In both cases using numerous sources, the Emotiva pair is impressive--but not stellar--in my small HT room. 

While plenty loud & clean for movies, I find the pair lacking for music-only listening (more headroom and microdynamics would help for my taste). From what I read and others have said, I'm sure the X-Series are far more satisfying.


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## xtinkshun

Krell are a Class A amp whereas Emotiva is Class A/B. Definitely different. Krell also uses better internal components which cost more, Emotiva is made in China.  Krell will last a lifetime, Emotiva well, not as long.


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## tonyvdb

Krell is assembled in the USA but many of the internal parts still come from China and other places.


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## xtinkshun

like 99% of everything in the U.S. However it's still assembled in the U.S. which employs stricter regulations. Besides a used Krell will sell for much more than a used Emotiva. Even 20 years later. Krell's hold their value!


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## ajinfla

xtinkshun said:


> Krell are a Class A amp whereas Emotiva is Class A/B. Definitely different.


Yes, the Krell will generate a lot more heat, use more electricity. Good luck picking it out in non-sighted listening.
Now sighted, yes, its certainly looks the luxury piece with associated status. No argument there.



xtinkshun said:


> Krell also uses better internal components which cost more, Emotiva is made in China.


Yep, like my Casio vs a Bozeman. Both seem to tell the same time, though the Casio might be more accurate long term. 



xtinkshun said:


> Krell will last a lifetime, Emotiva well, not as long.


Based on what data?
Do you know perhaps the biggest enemy of electronics reliability, is heat?

cheers,


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## ajinfla

xtinkshun said:


> like 99% of everything in the U.S. However it's still assembled in the U.S. which employs stricter regulations. Besides a used Krell will sell for much more than a used Emotiva. Even 20 years later. Krell's hold their value!


Now that is certainly true.

cheers,


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## xtinkshun

Have you ever owned or listened to a Krell with hi-end speakers? I can certainly hear a difference between a Krell vs. McIntosh vs. Bryston, shall I continue? It's also very easy to hear the soundstage collapse when an amp cannot produce enough power for said speakers. Different topologies will have sonic differences. Granted they will be slight but they are present. Bryston have a harsh sound while McIntosh have a warm sound. Again, Class A, A/B, D etc etc DO have sonic differences. I know this site pushes certain vendors that pay for advertising so I can understand you wanting to PUSH Emotiva over Krell. However if Krell were a paying vendor I bet your views would be different. Just like the magazines and reviewers are paid to give a favorable review to the product that pays their bills. I was hoping the moderators and admins would be more objective. Are you paid employees of hts? However would I ever pay that much for an amplifer? uh, NO!

When we compared my friend 5ch. Emotiva $899 to my Crown X1000 $99 neither of us could hear any difference between the to. Both are 200wpc and both are A/B amps however the Crown cost $800 less.

I am not attempting to be argumentative but rather objectionable. I can stand outside the box and be non-biased toward any merchant as I am not listing them on my personal server. I am curious though. How much electricity does a Krell amp use vs a Class D or A/B amp. How is that determined as well as how hot it gets? Some Class D amp are ice cold, my A/B amp does not get warm either however my Onkyo AVR can cook popcorn. Do you point a digital thermometer at the amp to determine how hot it gets?


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## tonyvdb

I have never owned Krell, Emotiva but for speakers I do own some EV setury 500s that I have used with at lest 5 different amps. H&H V800 was one of them (very well built and huge power) I also used a Crown, Crest audio and one other that I cant remeber the name and now I have them in my Theater running on a Samson Servo 600 amp. I have yet to be able to tell a difference with any of the amps. The imaging and quality of these speakers is amazing (for good reason given they are large studio monitors costing $8000 new) 
As has been said countess times if you keep them running within their specifications you should not hear any difference.


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## xtinkshun

I used to believe that as well and for the most part its true but it also has a lot to do with the speakers efficiency. With an efficient speaker 90db and up I doubt you would hear any difference since it takes so little power to produce sound. However if you connect an Onkyo AVR to B&W 800D speakers or any external amp with less than 200wpc (and sometimes even with) you will easily hear a difference. Power hungry speakers need lots of watts from a good amplifier. I could hear a difference between Bryston, McIntosh, and Krell. Each had a slightly distinct sound, the instruments and soundstage sound a bit different as well. It was also noticeable with a 200wpc vs 500wpc monoblock. Not night and day but you could hear a difference. If you buy efficient speakers you can use a cheap amp.. lol


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## JBrax

Reading through all of this makes me appreciate my efficient speakers all the more. I have a feeling if I did feel the need for amplification the Emotiva would more than meet my needs. The comparison here is two totally different budget classes and at some point there would have to be diminishing returns. To each his own and I suspect there may be biases on both ends of the spectrum whether warranted or not.


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## Krelldog

xtinkshun said:


> Have you ever owned or listened to a Krell with hi-end speakers? I can certainly hear a difference between a Krell vs. McIntosh vs. Bryston, shall I continue? It's also very easy to hear the soundstage collapse when an amp cannot produce enough power for said speakers. Different topologies will have sonic differences. Granted they will be slight but they are present. Bryston have a harsh sound while McIntosh have a warm sound. Again, Class A, A/B, D etc etc DO have sonic differences. I know this site pushes certain vendors that pay for advertising so I can understand you wanting to PUSH Emotiva over Krell. However if Krell were a paying vendor I bet your views would be different. Just like the magazines and reviewers are paid to give a favorable review to the product that pays their bills. I was hoping the moderators and admins would be more objective. Are you paid employees of hts? However would I ever pay that much for an amplifer? uh, NO!
> 
> When we compared my friend 5ch. Emotiva $899 to my Crown X1000 $99 neither of us could hear any difference between the to. Both are 200wpc and both are A/B amps however the Crown cost $800 less.
> 
> I am not attempting to be argumentative but rather objectionable. I can stand outside the box and be non-biased toward any merchant as I am not listing them on my personal server. I am curious though. How much electricity does a Krell amp use vs a Class D or A/B amp. How is that determined as well as how hot it gets? Some Class D amp are ice cold, my A/B amp does not get warm either however my Onkyo AVR can cook popcorn. Do you point a digital thermometer at the amp to determine how hot it gets?




I'm in Full 100% agreement with the above. I'm very disappointed that the mods here have a propensity for bashing costly, " boutique" gear. 

I've been to Krells factory, about half a dozen times, its a short ride from my home. I never had the chance to see the assembly line at Emotiva, has anyone else been there? Let's hear some feedback....are the parts all the same as krells?

My suggestion...try using the amps on High end speakers, maybe then you'll be able to hear the difference. 

How about Edge electronics or Plinius....perhaps Halcro. Those brands offer gear the same price if not more as Krell.....as do another 500 brands. All these brands are deceptive?


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## ajinfla

xtinkshun said:


> I can certainly hear a difference between a Krell vs. McIntosh vs. Bryston, shall I continue?


Sure. Tell us what controls existed in these listening sessions and if none, what makes you immune to human biases and perceptual errors? 



xtinkshun said:


> It's also very easy to hear the soundstage collapse when an amp cannot produce enough power for said speakers.


Right. Which has zero to do with brand, everything to do with power vs load.



xtinkshun said:


> Different topologies will have sonic differences. Granted they will be slight but they are present. Bryston have a harsh sound while McIntosh have a warm sound.


Sighted, uncontrolled, absolutely. Blind controlled tests, not so much. Please feel free to cite valid evidence to the contrary. "I heard it, I said so" unfortunately, does not count.



xtinkshun said:


> Again, Class A, A/B, D etc etc DO have sonic differences.


*Can*, not *do*.



xtinkshun said:


> I know this site pushes certain vendors that pay for advertising so I can understand you wanting to PUSH Emotiva over Krell. However if Krell were a paying vendor I bet your views would be different.


That's quite an accusation and a complete red herring, since any evidence of audibility is your burden.
Got any?



xtinkshun said:


> I am not attempting to be argumentative but rather objectionable. I can stand outside the box and be non-biased toward any merchant as I am not listing them on my personal server.


. Objective perhaps?
You can stand on any box you choose, but you don't get to claim immunity to perceptual biases that plague all humans, without some extraordinary evidence. Got any?



xtinkshun said:


> Do you point a digital thermometer at the amp to determine how hot it gets?


Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that heat is the enemy of electronics.
So, your data on Krell vs Emotiva reliability? Please present it, thanks.
Unless it's merely conjecture, like amp sound.

cheers


----------



## Krelldog

tonyvdb said:


> Krell is assembled in the USA but many of the internal parts still come from China and other places.


Really? Which parts exactly?


----------



## ajinfla

Krelldog said:


> I'm very disappointed that the mods here have a propensity for bashing costly, " boutique" gear.


Direct quote of the bash, so that it can be addressed thanks.



Krelldog said:


> I've been to Krells factory, about half a dozen times, its a short ride from my home. I never had the chance to see the assembly line at Emotiva, has anyone else been there? Let's hear some feedback....are the parts all the same as krells?


The Emotiva uses the equivalent of Carver parts quality. Perhaps you can explain this? :
http://carvermk2.com/docs/Carver%20Stereophile%20Challenge.pdf



Krelldog said:


> My suggestion...try using the amps on High end speakers, maybe then you'll be able to hear the difference.


My suggestion would be to repeat those listening sessions with voltage level controls and without peeking at the brands. let us know the outcome. 



Krelldog said:


> How about Edge electronics or Plinius....perhaps Halcro. Those brands offer gear the same price if not more as Krell.....as do another 500 brands. All these brands are deceptive?


Not if you're wired to believe price = SQ.
That just makes you human, not "deceived".

cheers


----------



## xtinkshun

Hey Krelldog, give it up. AJ doesn't even own an Emotiva or Krell amp yet know which sounds better. Apparently they do not have hi-end audio in Tampa Fl because anyone who has listened to hi-end gear and speakers knows they sound different. Try connecting your Onkyo AVR or Emotiva to a Wilson Alexandria. Bryston offers a 20 years warranty, what does Emotiva offer? As I said earlier hi-end amplifiers will still be around in 20 years and selling for more than new Emotiva. Im sure Emotiva makes a nice amp but its clearly out its league against a Krell. Sort of like a little league baseball player vs a pro. I would suggest you visit a hi-end audio dealer and conduct some objectionable auditions, or perhaps you suffered hearing damage in which case I feel sorry for you. Its quite childish how you feel the need to quote us sentence by sentence asking us for proof when the same can be done to your posts!
I'm curious what Audio credentials if you have if any? You state all these facts but back it up with nothing Are moderators just chosen at random for those that want to volunteer or work part time. On other forums the moderators and admins are actually educated or have many years of audio experience. I would guess you have little experience other that what you currently own. I myself have over 20 years and I worked for a dealer for 10+ years. A good friend of mine owns his own audio store selling both low and hi-end merchandise.


----------



## tonyvdb

Krelldog said:


> Really? Which parts exactly?


Your fooling yourself if you think Krell or any other manufacturer of high end audio makes and sources all their own parts here in North America.
for example and Fact the Krell 300i is made and assembled in china. Google "Krell 300i made in China" lots of info.


----------



## xtinkshun

Feel free to visit Emotiva Forum. Read the reviews from people that actually OWN their amps. While some have positive things to say others do not. They talk about power buttons popping off, led lights that don't work (which Emotiva admits a quality control issue). etc. Its NOT Krell vs Emotiva. Its about posting honest reviews and our own personal opinions. Instead you turn it into company vs. company and the moderator doesn't own either but seems to know Krell and Emotiva inside and out. I have never placed my hand on a hot Krell amp or a hot Emotiva amp. but heat kills. dude.. really... Let's get this thread back on track please.


----------



## ajinfla

xtinkshun said:


> AJ doesn't even own an Emotiva or Krell amp yet know which sounds better.


You know this how? Scryer? 
Well, I've never owned (or shilled) Emotiva, have Krell, neither having any relevance to your being able to "hear" either one, outside of you said so.



xtinkshun said:


> Apparently they do not have hi-end audio in Tampa Fl


Well, here's $20k of Cary in my living room, in my gallery if you checked. Not "hi-end" enough I suppose?

Me standing in front of >$60k worth of Audience gear:
















Quite a few members of my local audiophile club with >$100k systems. We meet monthly.
Here's another of mine at a show, around $70k system:








You can read a Hi-end magazines thoughts about it here
I could list dozens more, but hopefully you get the point.



xtinkshun said:


> I'm curious what Audio credentials you have if any?


I do have a membership card to the local audiophile club, does that count?
How about you? How about some photos of you in front of these hi-end brands you speak of? Surely this isn't all internets talk and bluster? Is it?



xtinkshun said:


> I myself have over 20 years and I worked for a dealer for 10+ years. A good friend of mine owns his own audio store selling both low and hi-end merchandise.


Now _that_ might explain a great many things. And why you can't address a single question I asked about your listening, evidence, understanding of human perception, or anything factual about Emotiva vs Krell.

cheers


----------



## ajinfla

xtinkshun said:


> I would suggest you visit a hi-end audio dealer and conduct some objectionable auditions


I think you already have that covered for us.


----------



## tonyvdb

xtinkshun said:


> I have never placed my hand on a hot Krell amp or a hot Emotiva amp. but heat kills. dude.. really... .


Class A amps by design get hot, Hotter than most. Class A amps are not very efficient either because they are always drawing power even when no audio is being produced.
Yes, Heat does kill. There is a reason why Krell even recommends keeping the amps out in the open not in a rack.
This is not a bash Krell thread but there have been comments that are making it sound like Krell is the only high end manufacturer out there You do not have to spend high $$ to get more then decent quality amps.


----------



## xtinkshun

tonyvdb said:


> Class A amps by design get hot, Hotter than most. Class A amps are not very efficient either because they are always drawing power even when no audio is being produced.
> Yes, Heat does kill. There is a reason why Krell even recommends keeping the amps out in the open not in a rack.
> This is not a bash Krell thread but there have been comments that are making it sound like Krell is the only high end manufacturer out there You do not have to spend high $$ to get more then decent quality amps.


I agree Tony but the OP was about Krell and Emotiva. I wouldn't own either. I do own McIntosh though. I did not want to change the OP thread into an Emotiva vs. all other amps. That wasn't the OP.


----------



## tonyvdb

And my point is that an Emotiva would do just fine under normal conditions driving most any speakers you like. No need to buy a Krell for the high $$ they want.


----------



## sub_crazy

I did have a Krell KAV series amp a long time ago and compared it to the Parasound HCA2205 I also had and could not hear a difference. I actually preferred the Parasound over the long run as I would begin to suffer listener fatigue with the Krell in extended listening sessions. My EAD PM2000 is a different story, that amp is flat out scary. I noticed more of a jump factor with the PM2000 for movies, like it has another gear. 

I still have my EAD but also run a Emotiva 5 channel amp in my home theater. Never bothered to compare the EAD and Emotiva since the EAD weighs about 140 so I am not dragging that sucker around. The Emotiva is a fine amp though, just have never compared it to anything else. 

All of this is a moot point though as we all know there is no difference in amplifiers


----------



## sub_crazy

tonyvdb said:


> Class A amps by design get hot, Hotter than most. Class A amps are not very efficient either because they are always drawing power even when no audio is being produced.
> Yes, *Heat does kill*. There is a reason why Krell even recommends keeping the amps out in the open not in a rack.
> This is not a bash Krell thread but there have been comments that are making it sound like Krell is the only high end manufacturer out there You do not have to spend high $$ to get more then decent quality amps.


It is actually not the heat that kills but the heating and cooling with expands and contracts causing problems. Of course overheating is a problem as well.

I had a Plinius Class A amp once which had a switch for either Class A (which turned it into a George Forman Grill) or Class A/B. Can't really say I ever heard a difference between the 2 settings so I left it A/B because it would actually heat up the room in Class A.

I have never been a fan of Krell Amps but there pre-amps are actually pretty decent, the Foundation the OP has is very drool worthy.


----------



## ajinfla

sub_crazy said:


> All of this is a moot point though as we all know there is no difference in amplifiers


Hah. Actually, there are a great many differences. All objectively quantifiable, if real. There are also, clearly, purely subjective, differences in opinions, etc and purely imaginary differences, purported as facts.
Like with any other luxury item, like a Rolex or Maybach. It will bring pride of ownership, status etc. for the owner that a Casio or Hyundai won't.
But that doesn't make it tell better time, or get better gas mileage, reliability, etc. etc....i.e, verifiably real function.
To each there own, enjoy you purchases, make no specious claims on HTS...all is good.
Especially hiding behind under pseudonyms and bluster, rather than posting under real person, with rational and verifiable statements.

cheers


----------



## magic

sub_crazy said:


> I did have a Krell KAV series amp a long time ago and compared it to the Parasound HCA2205 I also had and could not hear a difference. I actually preferred the Parasound over the long run as I would begin to suffer listener fatigue with the Krell in extended listening sessions.
> .
> .
> .
> 
> All of this is a moot point though as we all know there is no difference in amplifiers



If they are all the same why did you notice listening fatigue with the krell?


----------



## chashint

xtinkshun said:


> .... Someone wasn't held enough as a child.


I think AJ has allowed a remarkable pushing of the personal attack limits in this thread.

There will never be agreement between the subjective audiophiles and the people that enjoy music/HT but are rooted in objective testing.
That does not mean the conversation should turn nasty if it does not support your position.


----------



## Krelldog

tonyvdb said:


> And my point is that an Emotiva would do just fine under normal conditions driving most any speakers you like. No need to buy a Krell for the high $$ they want.


I can see the general consensus here is that amplifiers make no significant improvement in sound quality, so there is no need to buy a Krell, or any other amplifier in its price range. :sarcastic:

Does the same logic apply to speakers as well? :unbelievable:


----------



## tonyvdb

Krelldog said:


> Does the same thing go for speakers as well?


To a point yes, at a certain price point you are buying into a name rather than how much better they sound. You would be very hard pressed to find a speaker that costs over $8000 that sounds far better than one that costs $5000. Speakers are far to subjective. Some like them to be bright others like a more mellow warm sound. That argument is pointless as its all about personal listening tastes.


----------



## ajinfla

Krelldog said:


> I can see the general consensus here is that amplifiers make no significant improvement in sound quality, so there is no need to buy a Krell, or any other amplifier in its price range.


I didn't see that. Where?
What I saw is: Krell vs Emotiva, equal power delivery/stability vs load = no difference in soundwaves>human ears. 
No one is telling you to buy a Casio if you want a Patek. Just that they won't tell time any differently. However, one will certainly enjoy more status, have "better parts", resale value, etc, etc....if that makes you happy. So if buying a Krell, Maybach Patek or any other luxury item makes you happy, by all means _do so_!
Once again, can you grasp that concept? What was _actually written_ vs your subjective (mis)interpretation of it?



Krelldog said:


> Does the same logic apply to speakers as well? :unbelievable:


Only for those who can't comprehend the above concepts. 
Now of course, one is simply a voltage multiplier, the other a transduction of voltages to a 2 source 3D acoustic soundfield, radiated into various 3D spaces.
See the difference?

cheers


----------



## magic

ajinfla said:


> Only for those who can't comprehend the above concepts.
> Now of course, one is simply a voltage multiplier, the other a transduction of voltages to a 2 source 3D acoustic soundfield, radiated into various 3D spaces.
> See the difference?
> 
> cheers


Sorry can you explain you seem to be saying that all speakers sound the same 
So please elaborate as I don't think you meant that


----------



## ajinfla

magic said:


> Sorry can you explain you seem to be saying that all speakers sound the same
> So please elaborate as I don't think you meant that


The basic function of an amplifier, is to multiply the voltage input, vs output. Hence it's not terribly surprising to the technically informed, that a great many will be indistinguishable from each other.
Actually, barring pathological conditions (apples to oranges comparisons), like a 50w vs 500w driving a complex load, or a high vs low output impedance amp, etc, etc, etc., they _are_ indistinguishable....to ears. There is zero evidence to the contrary (no, "I heard this", I saw Bigfoot, etc, etc perceptions don't count). If there was such evidence, it would have been presented long ago, instead of incessant hand waving and incomprehension of basic human perception.

Loudspeakers OTOH, are transducers. They take voltages (electrical domain) and transduce them to the acoustic domain. Soundwaves, for our ears to perceive. 3 dimensionally, with a polar pattern dependent on the arrangement, number, etc of drivers. And there are 2 of those (for stereo). So there is already huge variability. Placed somwhere in a 3D bounded space, your room*s*, with even more variance (size, reflectivity and lossiness of various surfaces, furnishings, etc). Where they radiate and sum at your ears, placed somewhere in that room.
What a shocker there is quite a bit of variability with loudspeaker sound!! .

cheers,


----------



## xtinkshun

Hey since all amps and speakers sound the same everyone should just buy a $300 AVR and some Kmart speakers. I guess it doesn't matter that amps and speakers actually use different materials which in turn alter the sound. Basic electronics will tell you that. Everyone's ears will hear sound differently. You cant compare watches or cars to audio either. That analogy actually makes no sense. Do both watches tell time. yep however a rolex uses more expensive components than a casio therefore its more expensive. Same with vehicles and the same with amps and speakers. A Dayton speaker costs a lot less than a Seas speakers. oh, and they do sound different.


----------



## Lumen

chashint said:


> I think AJ has allowed a remarkable pushing of the personal attack limits in this thread.
> 
> There will never be agreement between the subjective audiophiles and the people that enjoy music/HT but are rooted in objective testing.
> That does not mean the conversation should turn nasty if it does not support your position.


:surrender: Exactly! 

So can we now discuss bits-are-bits = (digital GOOD / analog BAD)? :duck:


----------



## xtinkshun

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying a $300 amp is all anyone needs. As you spend more money you tend to get more power, higher current capability, bigger power supplies, better construction, longer life, etc. Many of these are especially useful if you have inefficient and/or difficult to drive speakers and like it loud.
I'm also not saying that some amps don't have "euphoric distortion" that some people like (i.e. single ended amps). Some amps are measurably different (i.e. have a rolled off high-end). These amps are relatively easy to pick out in a blind test.

To AJ point, Bob Carver (from the 80's) conducted a blind test with Stereophile. The editors of Stereophile lost a blind challenge to Bob Carver. They couldn't tell a pair of $15,000 monoblock tube amps from a $699 Carver model that Bob lightly tweaked to duplicate the frequency response of the tube amps. They helped define the terms of the test. They were VERY confident they would win. They lost.

Read carefully, Bob changed the waveform/frequency of his amp (solid state) to duplicate a tube amp. Therefore he "changed the sound" characteristics. Meaning amps "can" sound different or the same depending on how they are "tweaked or modified". Not a standard store bought amp.


----------



## AudiocRaver

We tend to forget an important aspect of amplifier design:

Feedback. All amplifiers make use of negative feedback as a basic design technique for controlling gain, reducing distortion, and flattening frequency response. ALL amplifiers use negative feedback in some form. It eliminates the very effects of different components types, brands, and subtle characteristics, etc. So a component's "sound" really means "how it affects the operation of the circuit," and negative feedback's job is to simply make those little variations not matter.


----------



## littlejohn74

xtinkshun said:


> Hey since all amps and speakers sound the same everyone should just buy a $300 AVR and some Kmart speakers. I guess it doesn't matter that amps and speakers actually use different materials which in turn alter the sound. Basic electronics will tell you that. Everyone's ears will hear sound differently. You cant compare watches or cars to audio either. That analogy actually makes no sense. Do both watches tell time. yep however a rolex uses more expensive components than a casio therefore its more expensive. Same with vehicles and the same with amps and speakers. A Dayton speaker costs a lot less than a Seas speakers. oh, and they do sound different.


No one ever said that all speakers sound the same. AJ is actually trying to say that a speakers job is much much more complex than that of an amplifier, hence the variations between speakers is much greater. There will come a time when all speakers will sound very similar irrespective of price or brand. We're just not there yet.

Amps on the other hand have a much simpler job and therefore to make a relatively cheap amp sound great is much easier.
What many are saying is that assuming that the load being driven is within the design specs of a an amp. Amp A vs Amp B will sound very very similar. Indistinguishable in a double blind (ABX) test.


----------



## chashint

There have been many controlled experiments testing amp A vs amp B.
To date there has never been a report where one amp was distinguishable from the other in the controlled experiment.
If there was it would be all over the internet and in the audiophile magazines. 

If any audiophile could produce a documented double blind test that produced an audible difference between amplifiers it would be a first and I guess they would achieve some level of fame for the accomplishment.

In a controlled experiment my humble Pioneer VSX-23 would have indistinguishable sound from a Krell system assuming level matching, the same source, the same speakers, and not pushing the the AVR into distortion.

Would I like to own a Krell system instead of the Pioneer AVR?
Maybe. I have not looked into them to know if there's one that supports HD audio decoding and has glitch free HDMI switching. 
In any case it's not worth it to me to take that much money away from everything else I want/have for the presumed prestige of owning a Krell.

I think it's great if you want the high dollar system.
But electrical engineering and controlled DB testing does not support the argument that different amplification or different price points of is distinguishable.


----------



## Krelldog

chashint said:


> There have been many controlled experiments testing amp A vs amp B.
> To date there has never been a report where one amp was distinguishable from the other in the controlled experiment.
> If there was it would be all over the internet and in the audiophile magazines.
> 
> If any audiophile could produce a documented double blind test that produced an audible difference between amplifiers it would be a first and I guess they would achieve some level of fame for the accomplishment.
> 
> In a controlled experiment my humble Pioneer VSX-23 would have indistinguishable sound from a Krell system assuming level matching, the same source, the same speakers, and not pushing the the AVR into distortion.
> 
> *Would I like to own a Krell system instead of the Pioneer AVR?
> Maybe. I have not looked into them *to know if there's one that supports HD audio decoding and has glitch free HDMI switching.
> In any case it's not worth it to me to take that much money away from everything else I want/have for the presumed prestige of owning a Krell.
> 
> I think it's great if you want the high dollar system.
> But electrical engineering and controlled DB testing does not support the argument that different amplification or different price points of is distinguishable.




I disagree.


----------



## tonyvdb

Brian, just because Krell costs 10 times as much as Emotiva does not in any way shape or form mean it will preform 10 times better. The price of the fancy Krell logo and extra thick chassis does not improve the sound output.


----------



## AudiocRaver

I am going to kindly ask those who continue posting to this thread to double-check and be sure your ways of expressing your views are as positive, respectful, and objective as possible. Play nice. Thanks.


----------



## Krelldog

tonyvdb said:


> Brian, just because Krell costs 10 times as much as Emotiva does not in any way shape or form mean it will preform 10 times better. The price of the fancy Krell logo and extra thick chassis does not improve the sound output.


I don't own a Krell at this time.


----------



## chashint

Here is a link to the $10,000 challenge...
http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/ 
Posting a link to any other data that can refute this would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## AudiocRaver

To quote one of our wise administrators:

We all need to "...be clear that there are NO FACTs that PROVE either side of this argument. Evidence, reason, speculation, opinion, and just plain guessing are all fine in discussing this stuff, but one cannot attempt to force one's own experience and reality on another. If some user hears that his..." model aaaa "...blows away another's..." model bbbb, "...that perspective is just as valid as those who hear no difference in a similar comparison. Experience is individual. As long as we stay clear that opinion and experience are just that and not cold hard facts, we can discuss contentious issues in a civil manner. Test measurements and design are facts. Results from comparisons are facts in a context. They can suggest patterns if repeatable, but are not proof of anything. What one person finds to be adequate proof may be meaningless to another..."

IOW, we can disagree and still be respectful.

This thread is open for business.


----------



## Lumen

AudiocRaver said:


> *To quote one of our wise administrators:*
> 
> We all need to "...be clear that there are NO FACTs that PROVE either side of this argument. Evidence, reason, speculation, opinion, and just plain guessing are all fine in discussing this stuff, but one cannot attempt to force one's own experience and reality on another. If some user hears that his..." model aaaa "...blows away another's..." model bbbb, "...that perspective is just as valid as those who hear no difference in a similar comparison. Experience is individual. As long as we stay clear that opinion and experience are just that and not cold hard facts, we can discuss contentious issues in a civil manner. Test measurements and design are facts. Results from comparisons are facts in a context. They can suggest patterns if repeatable, but are not proof of anything. What one person finds to be adequate proof may be meaningless to another..."
> 
> IOW, we can disagree and still be respectful.
> 
> This thread is open for business.


Well said! May I ask who the the "wise admin" is? Can you please send a PM, if appropriate? I already "follow" you, and would like to add them to my list. Thanks, and KUDOS! :TT


----------



## ajinfla

littlejohn74 said:


> No one ever said that all speakers sound the same.


Correct. But in the overactive imagination of those waving their hands frantically as a smokescreen to disguise a lack of evidence, this is posited. That should tell one immediately, whether their claims have any basis, or is simply the result of that overactive imagination.



littlejohn74 said:


> What many are saying is that assuming that the load being driven is within the design specs of a an amp. Amp A vs Amp B will sound very very similar. Indistinguishable in a double blind (ABX) test.


Indeed and not just saying, but demonstrating, over and over.
The very same demonstrating, those who only believe, cannot do.
Anyone can claim to be able to run faster than Bolt, or "hear" an Emotiva vs Krell driving the same loudspeaker, while posting anonymously online.
It's another thing entirely when it's time to demonstrate this, when the lights and cameras go on.
You won't see any controlled tests like this on Youtube anytime soon.

Buy the Krell or the Rolex if it pleases you. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Make claims about it's better "sound" or timekeeping, at your own peril.

cheers,


----------



## yoda13

ajinfla said:


> The basic function of an amplifier, is to multiply the voltage input, vs output. Hence it's not terribly surprising to the technically informed, that a great many will be indistinguishable from each other.
> Actually, barring pathological conditions (apples to oranges comparisons), like a 50w vs 500w driving a complex load, or a high vs low output impedance amp, etc, etc, etc., they _are_ indistinguishable....to ears. There is zero evidence to the contrary (no, "I heard this", I saw Bigfoot, etc, etc perceptions don't count). If there was such evidence, it would have been presented long ago, instead of incessant hand waving and incomprehension of basic human perception.
> 
> Loudspeakers OTOH, are transducers. They take voltages (electrical domain) and transduce them to the acoustic domain. Soundwaves, for our ears to perceive. 3 dimensionally, with a polar pattern dependent on the arrangement, number, etc of drivers. And there are 2 of those (for stereo). So there is already huge variability. Placed somwhere in a 3D bounded space, your room*s*, with even more variance (size, reflectivity and lossiness of various surfaces, furnishings, etc). Where they radiate and sum at your ears, placed somewhere in that room.
> What a shocker there is quite a bit of variability with loudspeaker sound!! .
> 
> cheers,


Thank you for explaining what I want to explain but with a more appropriate vocabulary than I can use. Great post.


----------



## magic

ajinfla said:


> Correct. But in the overactive imagination of those waving their hands frantically as a smokescreen to disguise a lack of evidence, this is posited. That should tell one immediately, whether their claims have any basis, or is simply the result of that overactive imagination.
> ,


I hope your not refering to me in your group of individuals.
My post was meant to get you to clear up what you said.. As it was written it was open for the incorrect interpretation... which ultimately occurred. 

As well as by you clearing that up it helps new people to the forum who are reading this to get a better understanding.


----------



## ajinfla

yoda13 said:


> Thank you for explaining what I want to explain but with a more appropriate vocabulary than I can use. Great post.


Thank you sir.


----------



## ajinfla

magic said:


> I hope your not refering to me in your group of individuals.


Nope, no sir, completely generic and generalized statement. Never put the shoe on unless it fits!


----------



## magic

ajinfla said:


> Nope, no sir, completely generic and generalized statement. Never put the shoe on unless it fits!


Thanks


----------



## sub_crazy

ajinfla said:


> Hah. Actually, there are a great many differences. All objectively quantifiable, if real. There are also, clearly, purely subjective, differences in opinions, etc and purely imaginary differences, purported as facts.
> Like with any other luxury item, like a Rolex or Maybach. It will bring pride of ownership, status etc. for the owner that a Casio or Hyundai won't.
> But that doesn't make it tell better time, or get better gas mileage, reliability, etc. etc....i.e, verifiably real function.
> To each there own, enjoy you purchases, make no specious claims on HTS...all is good.
> Especially hiding behind under pseudonyms and bluster, rather than posting under real person, with rational and verifiable statements.
> 
> cheers


The differences in amps were a fact to me, it doesn't affect my life in the slightest if it is not a fact to you. 

I will admit that with my Von Schweikerts I don't hear much difference at all with amps but I have been with the same amp for many years now. When I owned the Aerial Model 9 I noticed a difference between the EAD PM2000 I had sold in favor of a Theta Dreadnaught, for music it was close but for movies the Aerials sounded bad. I took the amp back to my dealer and we checked it out and it was operating fine. When I told him why I was so unhappy with the amp he refunded my money and had me take a Earthquake Supernova amp he got in a trade. I scoffed at the Earthquake amp as I only got it for $1,500 but he said that he thinks I will enjoy it a lot more for movies. Well he was right, drove the Aerials much better for movies and I kept the Earthquake until I finally found another EAD PM2000 to replace it. The other speakers I had that the amp change was noticeable were Thiels and that got me to thinking that the speakers that are a little more difficult loads to drive are the ones that benefit from better amplification. The parts that made me cringe were mostly during movies and that was probably just the amp struggling and introducing distortion.

I am not going to try and convince anyone otherwise that there is a difference, that is up to them. I am just trying to share my experience since I have been fortunate enough to own a large # of amps over the years.


----------



## sub_crazy

magic said:


> If they are all the same why did you notice listening fatigue with the krell?


I was just being sarcastic :sarcastic: I used the wrong smiley.

With the Krell KAV I just noticed that after a month my listening sessions were short for music, I would skip through tracks in CD's quickly and maybe only listen for an hour at most. For movies I could not tell the difference, I may have preferred the krell as it seamed to be more dynamic. I decided to go back to the Parasound for awhile since it was still in my rack powering the surrounds after a month and noticed that now I was back to my normal listening routines. I would get so caught up in the music that I would wind up listening to whole CD's and my listening sessions were much longer again. I did go back to the Krell after a few weeks as that was the only variable and after a few weeks I sold the Krell and stayed with the Parasound. 

I really wanted to love the Krell, I lusted over owning a Krell since I first got into audio. I even thought about buying one of the Class A Krell amps after that experience because I thought it was just the lower line KAV series that were not good. I had a chance to listen to a Krell front end Class A setup with Thiel 3.6 speakers at another friends house and noticed that the sound was just grating to me after awhile. I am not a big Thiel fan either after owning a pair of CS2.3 and MCS1 center, the only Thiels I really enjoyed that I personally owned were the SCS3 and Powerpoints I used in a smaller system. 

I never owned a Krell 2 channel pre-amp but recently picked up a Krell HTS 7.1 used for a great deal just out of curiosity. The HTS sounds outstanding for music compared to my Sherwood with Trinnov but I have never need a huge fan of the Sherwood for music anyway, just movies. For movies the Krell is very close even though it does not have any of the HD audio codecs unless I connect the 7.1 outputs of my Oppo into the 7.1 inputs of the Krell. I have tried the 7.1 inputs but find just regular DTS and Dolby Digital to be just as good. It still doesn't have the bubble like surround envelopment of the Trinnov which is outstanding but dynamics and especially bass is probably better on the Krell.


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## ajinfla

ajinfla said:


> sub_crazy said:
> 
> 
> 
> All of this is a moot point though as we all know there is no difference in amplifiers
> 
> 
> 
> Hah. *Actually, there are a great many differences.* All objectively quantifiable, if real.
Click to expand...




sub_crazy said:


> The differences in amps were a fact to me, it doesn't affect my life in the slightest if it is not a fact to you.


:scratch:

Any opticians on the forum willing to help?


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## sub_crazy

Your post came off to me as discounting what I had to say, I guess I read into it wrong and these comments were not directed at me but I was the one who was quoted:

*There are also, clearly, purely subjective, differences in opinions, etc and purely imaginary differences, purported as facts.
Like with any other luxury item, like a Rolex or Maybach. It will bring pride of ownership, status etc. for the owner that a Casio or Hyundai won't.
But that doesn't make it tell better time, or get better gas mileage, reliability, etc. etc....i.e, verifiably real function.
To each there own, enjoy you purchases, make no specious claims on HTS...all is good.
Especially hiding behind under pseudonyms and bluster, rather than posting under real person, with rational and verifiable statements.*

You only quoted the first part of your post, not the rest which goes on to say the opposite it sounds like to me. 

Maybe I just read your comments the wrong way but to me when you say "make no specious claims on HTS...all is good" to a post were I gave an opinion based on my experiences then your saying it's plausible but wrong.

Can we please get into a new debate centered around religion or politics instead, it would have to be more pleasant than this 

Either way I am done with this, it's pointless anyway.


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## ajinfla

sub_crazy said:


> I guess I read into it wrong and these comments were not directed at me


Bingo, we have a winner!


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## lcaillo

ajinfla said:


> The basic function of an amplifier, is to multiply the voltage input, vs output. Hence it's not terribly surprising to the technically informed, that a great many will be indistinguishable from each other.


I hate to be pedantic, but we need to be precise and complete. An amplifier which only multiplies voltage would be of little use. An amplifier takes a voltage and multiplies it, and delivers the current demanded by the load with the resulting voltage.

I don't see the logical connection between your definition of an amplifier and expected similarities. In practice, I agree, a great many will be audibly indistinguishable, but there are great differences in design and quality that can make for significant differences as well.

[/QUOTE]
Actually, barring pathological conditions (apples to oranges comparisons), like a 50w vs 500w driving a complex load, or a high vs low output impedance amp, etc, etc, etc., they _are_ indistinguishable....to ears. There is zero evidence to the contrary (no, "I heard this", I saw Bigfoot, etc, etc perceptions don't count). If there was such evidence, it would have been presented long ago, instead of incessant hand waving and incomprehension of basic human perception.[/QUOTE]

I disagree that there is zero evidence to the contrary. That evidence is there, though it might not be sufficient nor useful to you and me. Lots of people hear differences. Maybe that is just belief, maybe it is perception affected by other variables in play such as expectation bias or status. That does not make their experiences less valid or useful to the many that hear differences. Your standard for what is real is different. We have to also consider that many of the comparisons that are claimed to be objective start off trying to prove the negative. This is simply faulty science and introduces lots of potential biases itself. Not all comparisons are so, and the large body of evidence does favor the conclusion that most amps sound more similar than not, but we have to account for the rest of the probablility and the bias of conventional wisdom and be open minded.

[/QUOTE]Loudspeakers OTOH, are transducers. They take voltages (electrical domain) and transduce them to the acoustic domain. Soundwaves, for our ears to perceive. 3 dimensionally, with a polar pattern dependent on the arrangement, number, etc of drivers. And there are 2 of those (for stereo). So there is already huge variability. Placed somwhere in a 3D bounded space, your room*s*, with even more variance (size, reflectivity and lossiness of various surfaces, furnishings, etc). Where they radiate and sum at your ears, placed somewhere in that room.
What a shocker there is quite a bit of variability with loudspeaker sound!! .

cheers,[/QUOTE]

Again, voltage is only part of the equation. In fact, it is the current variable that likely accounts for many perceived differences in amplifiers should one actually be able to hear differences. As you know well, AJ, voice coils with voltage applied do not move in proportion to that voltage unless there is sufficient current available. Again, not wanting to correct you because I know you know this very well, but I think in trying to simplify the matter you violated Einstein's view regarding simplicity.


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## ajinfla

Well, that will teach me trying to simplify!:laugh:

...and I did say "...to *ears*", which is a simplification for "ears only", aka "blind".
Face it Leonard, I'm just waaay too lazy to detail everything.

cheers,

AJ


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## lcaillo

Loaded terms there...few who hear differences would consider that they are using more than their ears and the term blind can have lots of connotations. There just is no room in threads like this for metaphors nor anything but precisely communicating your beliefs and experiences. 

We have to be precise in how we communicate, and that is not often the case in internet forums. The reality is, however, that there are many reading everything here who have very different levels of understanding of the language and very different base perspectives which lead to interpretations of meaning that may not be what you intend.


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## Lumen

Ahh, yes... Perception vs. facts, Golden Ears vs. arsenals of precision lab equipment, et.c etc. etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseum. :boxer: :sad:

In the context of art, why do the vast majority of human beings trust eyesight so much more then hearing? How many times have you heard: "This TV looks so much better than that one"? Now ask yourself how many times have you witnessed costly audio gear (or any other) dismissed because "only Golden Ears can hear the difference." Really? :rubeyes:

lddude:
All very controversial, and the source of the ultimate divide between us. While providing sustenance to some, others grow weary of the debate and withdraw. As was previously mentioned, neither side will EVER convert the other over to their belief system. Unless and until a scientific instrument is invented that can measure claimed audible differences, both sides can strut their views in full peacock fashion down Main Street and spread whatever information or misinformation they please--to the detriment of advancing the enjoyment of art.

lddude:
Music and movies are art forms which evoke emotional responses from their respective audiences. Their presentation in the home is either close to the original, or it's not. The goal of the equipment used to recreate those art forms is first and foremost, "to do no harm." That is, no real-world electronic device performs according to its ideal scientific model. Any real-world distortions, however slight, should be "crimes of omission," rather than "crimes of commission." Why? Because humans generally perceive (there's that term again) such reproduction as more pleasurable. For example, rolled-off treble (something missing) generally sounds better than peaky treble (something added). The amps-are-amps crowd yell foul and place the burden of proof on the it-sounds-good-so-it-is-good crowd. The latter contrarily charge the former with skewed ABX tests and measuring the wrong things. 

So where does that leave us? :huh:
Can we ever establish a measurement system that coincides with perceived quality of not just amps, but of the entire A/V chain. Floyd Toole of Harman fame has attempted--and succeeded--in doing just that in the field of loudspeaker design. Read about it here and here and here. Can't we keep open minds and consider that THD, IMD, slew rate, impedance, etc. are not the be-all-end-all of amplifier design? I ask you to at at least consider what happened back in the day when amplifier manufacturers engaged in the dreaded THD percentage wars. The number of zeroes to the right of the decimal became a marketing frenzy that yielded more than a few amps with horrid sound.

To paraphrase AJ: "Don't refute evidence with lofty claims."
To paraphrase Leonard: "Beware of potential bias in faulty science."

:wave:


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