# No room for center speaker - options? Thx!



## musicfan

Hello,

I'm new here and this is my first post. I've enjoyed poking around so far and just bought a refurbished Onkyo TX-SR876 THX Ultra2 Plus 140 watts channel 7.1 Receiver based on recommendations on the site. 

I am in the process of renovating a new (to us) house and we are building a family room with a (vented) gas fireplace with a LED TV above the mantle. The issue is that we're trying to keep the TV low enough to comfortably watch, which means that it needs to be directly above the mantle and there's no room for a center channel. 

I have a set of AV123 speakers that I bought a while back that would make nice Left/Right/Center speakers, but the center is pretty big and would have to be recessed somehow into the fireplace structure to the left or right of the TV. Is that type of arrangement OK? Please let me know if you have any suggestions.

My electrician has a sound and video guy who is very reasonable and will wire whatever I want - but he was recommending cieling speakers (Proficient) for the front (I assume L/R/C) and rears. 

There's a lot to figure out and my electrician is roughing in the wiring this week and next (so I may have many more questions). 

So, my main question is how to address the center channel speaker location issue. Do I use my AV123 speakers, or buy in wall or in ceiling speakers and use the AV123s elsewhere? 

Also, are there in wall/in cieling options for fronts (L/R/C) that might make sense (I'm somewhat spooked by posts that talk about the need for boxes in the wall etc. (My electrician and sound wiring guy are good, and inexpensive, but they aren;t audiophile guys from a high end shop).


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## eugovector

I wouldn't put the center anywhere other than in the center. Try putting it above the TV, or go with just the Left and Right up front.

Inwalls look great, but don't typically sound as good as free-standing speakers. In-ceiling up front would not be a good idea.


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## musicfan

Thanks so much for the prompt reply.

Can you tell me a bit about how I could use only the left and right? That sounds good to me, as it could enable me to consider in walls or use my L/R towers, but is it OK to not use a center channel? Is there some type of setting in the receiver that will direct the center sound to the left and right? Would I be losing a lot of potential for good TV sound by doing this?

I'm relatively new to the newer technology.

Thanks again, Mike


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## Dave Upton

Your AV123 speakers (whatever the model) will be considerably better sounding than those proficient speakers, they are low cost high margin contractor speakers. 


It may be difficult to arrange but I can tell you they will definitely sound better.


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## eugovector

Just set your receiver to "none" for center speaker and it will automatically route the center channel sound to your other two speakers.


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## XEagleDriver

*Re: No room for center speaker - options?*



musicfan said:


> *Can you tell me a bit about how I could use only the left and right? * That sounds good to me, as it could enable me to consider in walls or use my L/R towers, but is it OK to not use a center channel? Is there some type of setting in the receiver that will direct the center sound to the left and right?


Mike,

Yes, it is OK not to have a center speaker and in some cases the preferred option. 

Your receiver has a set-up option in which you instruct it what your actual speaker configuration is.

In your case, you will tell the receiver you do not have a center speaker (this is called a "phantom center" by some) and the receiver will automatically divide any center channel signal information (e.g. dialogue in a movie) equally between your front left and right speakers.

I am currently doing this in my family room, and it works like a champ. 

As others have said, you are better off using a "phantom center" then either placing an inferior center channel speaker in the mix, or a grossly misplaced center speaker (way high or off to the side).

Cheers,
XEagleDriver


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## musicfan

That is excellent! I'm very  relieved to be able to stop worying about the center channel issue. Now, I can use the AV123 left/right towers, and then possibly save my AV123 center and AV123 rears for use with a TV in the basement for the kids (with the rears used as left/right). 

If I choose not use my AV123 rears and instead use in-walls or in-ceilings, is it better to have the rears at ear level? Or is it OK to have them firing down from the ceiling? My wiring guy has suggested that I keep the walls clean, and locate speakers in the cileing, but I suspect the sound may be better if they are at ear level. 

Thanks, again! Mike 

Thanks, Mike


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## eugovector

Rear should be at 2-3 feet above ear-level, and in-ceiling, while not ideal, will be less critical than with fronts.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I am in complete agreement about the Proficient Speakers. Run. Don't walk. And indeed running a Phantom Configuration (no CC) can work quite satisfactory. It really depends on the size of the Room and Listening Positions.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Matteo

I agree with all of the above, but I wanted to throw a FYI into the mix for informational purposes. I listened in on a Sherwood Newcastle R-972 demonstration and one of the features is that you can move your "center" of sound to where you like. In the demonstration, they had a typical setup with front, center on the mantel, and right speakers. The TV wasn't able to be put on the mantle, for demonstration purposes, so they placed the TV in the corner, near the right speaker. After setup, the sound adjusted and it really did a good job of shifting all the speakers so you still had sound from left/right/center but it was all centered on the TV. Just a heads up in case someone ever had a situation where they needed something like this. It really was pretty cool. It was done by aiming the microphone in the direction you wanted to center channel to shift to. 
Just information. Your phantom speaker setup will work great.

Matteo


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## Jungle Jack

Matteo said:


> I agree with all of the above, but I wanted to throw a FYI into the mix for informational purposes. I listened in on a Sherwood Newcastle R-972 demonstration and one of the features is that you can move your "center" of sound to where you like. In the demonstration, they had a typical setup with front, center on the mantel, and right speakers. The TV wasn't able to be put on the mantle, for demonstration purposes, so they placed the TV in the corner, near the right speaker. After setup, the sound adjusted and it really did a good job of shifting all the speakers so you still had sound from left/right/center but it was all centered on the TV. Just a heads up in case someone ever had a situation where they needed something like this. It really was pretty cool. It was done by aiming the microphone in the direction you wanted to center channel to shift to.
> Just information. Your phantom speaker setup will work great.
> 
> Matteo


Hello,
Indeed. The Trinnov EQ in the R-972 really is impressive. Trinnov EQ's used to be almost solely in the hands of Movie Studio's and the like. And the prices for the standalone Trinnov EQ's were in the tens of thousands of Dollars. Now it is available scaled down on an IC. Great news. Everything I have read about Trinnov has been quite impressive. 
Cheers,
JJ


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## ojojunkie

hi! is it not possible to mount the Ctr speaker on top of the display panel angled towards your listening position? or other option is reposition your sitting arrangment not facing the fireplace so get place to put your center speaker...


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## musicfan

Hello,

Thanks again for the replies and info. I think the only way I could arrange for a center speaker above the fireplace would be to use in-wall or in-ceiling speakers firing downward from above the TV. There is a chimney pipe that I have to worry about, among other considerations, so at this point I feel good about going with a phantom center. However, maybe I will consider putting speaker wire in place behind the wall in case I ever change my mind . . .

I also think I may seriously consider wiring the room for another TV location just in case, or at least put some wires in a conduit. Does that sound like a good idea?

The next big issue is wiring the house while everything is open during the renovation. I have been reading about wiring here and other places and my head is spinning a bit., I only have a few days to figure this out, so I think I'll be posting a few questions in the other forum and I hope you guys will respond there as well. 

Thanks again, Mike


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## eugovector

If the walls are open, I'd definitely wire a 2nd location. Different strokes for different folks, but I'd never settle for a TV above a fireplace. I'd board up the fireplace before that happened.


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## lsiberian

I'd take out the fire place, but we are in Texas and I still don't understand why we have fireplaces.


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## musicfan

Hello,

The fireplace in question is in our new family room that we're renovating. We removed a back staircase between the kitchen and attached garage and are making the garage into our family room. My wife really wants to include a gas fireplace, so we are. She wants it for extra warmth in the colder months. I was, however, able to prevail on the issue of vented vs. ventless. We had a ventless gas fireplace before, and I never liked that the place always smelled like we had our kitchen burners on high. Also, I'm sure we were sucking all of the oxygen out of the house. 

In any event, I'm already a bit worried (1) that the TV placement above the fireplace will be too high, (2) that it will interfere with the ability to configure seating, since the TV will stick a foot or more into the room, and the viewing area is across the narrow part of the room, and (3) that the heat will be a problem. 

What are the main critiques other folks have about locating TVs above the fireplace? Same or similar as above?

Thx, Mike


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## eugovector

#1 critique is one often cited and if your TV is too high, you sound is likely too high, or disjointed from the video. Spend two hour staring at the place where you TV would be. Odds are, you're going to get a stiff neck.


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## Home Theater Guy

Does the TV absolutely have to be in the same location as the fireplace? You can usually have the fireplace on one wall with the TV on another, with no conflicts...


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## tonyvdb

I have not seen anyone suggest this so I will throw it out there. I know it not matching speakers however it may be possible to use the displays speakers as the center channel. All you would need to do is use the receivers center pre out and put a splitter on it and send the signal to the left and right input on the display.


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## eugovector

As flat panel television get thinner, so do the speakers in them. I haven't heard built in speakers that I would trust dialog to since the days of CRT Rear Projection, and there's a reason why soundbars are all the rage these days. Phantom Center might not give you pinpoint positioning, but the overall quality of sound will more than make up for it.


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## tonyvdb

eugovector said:


> Phantom Center might not give you pinpoint positioning, but the overall quality of sound will more than make up for it.


Agreed:T I think thats really the only option left.


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## Trick McKaha

Phantom Center is OK, but a center channel speaker helps a lot. Don't give up entirely on looking for ways to put a center speaker just above or below your TV. Maybe you could have the center on a stand on the floor beside your TV and pull it in front of your fireplace when you turn off the lights and want the sound to be at its best. Or, if only you could mount it above your TV pointing toward the listeners and have it not look too bad. Or, as you noted, maybe move the TV. 

It would need to be a speaker that matches or is close to a match of your L and R main speakers, but apparently you have that in your AV123 set. I agree with all the other posters here who say phantom center is preferable to something mounted in your ceiling. I used a phantom center for some months when I didn't have a center speaker good enough to match my new mains, but boy do I like it better now that I built one.


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## ironglen

Not trying to thread-steal, but I'm a bit perplexed on how to achieve a nice 'line of sight' for a center channel when using a larger tv or projection screen for multiple row seating. Must one mount a speaker at the ceiling/wall above the screen? If a center channel is mounted below the screen, then it would seem to be ideal for the front row for imaging and sound, however, the rear row can't even see it, so therefore those listeners must be at a disadvantage sound-wise, no?


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## eugovector

With 2 rows, You'll need to go above the screen for best sound with the 2nd row, but try to keep it out of the point where the wall meet the ceiling, if at all possible. Angle it down as well.


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## Matteo

I have an old TV above our fireplace, built into it, with nice finished wood doors to cover it up when we are not using it. It is high, about 7", and only about 36". I never watch TV on this unless I am just turning on the news while cooking or something. My kids use it all the time and don't seem to mind it, and my father-in-law watches sports while waiting for dinner. The fireplace is gas, and the duct runs out of the wall to the outside, below the TV, so heat isn't really a problem. It never seems to get very hot. I only listen to the built in speakers on the TV. I do have the room wired for speakers on that wall, and another wall in case I ever change my setup, and also in the ceiling, in case I choose that option. I could use a soundbar on the mantle, but the wife doesn't like the looks of that and since I don't use the TV much, I don't care to argue. 
Not sure of my point. I wouldn't want to use this as my main TV. I have seen many TV's on mantle's that seem okay to me, but not great. I would definitely wire a few options into the room, you just never know. In-ceilings are getting better, but good ones cost some $$$. 
If it were me, I'd say wire for everything, try the phantom and see how you like it, and keep the in-ceiling in mind. It sounds like you can't change the location of it, or don't want to, so you are limited in options. Good luck.

Matteo


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## musicfan

Thanks guys. I am definitely going to wire for at least one other location option in the room. Also, I'm having my contractor finish the area above the fireplace with woodwork panels that match the house and will allow me to unmount and move the TV and then cover the wiring/mounting location with the center woodwork paneled square. I appreciate the input.


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## Matteo

Hey Music fan. Here is a good idea I just remembered...
http://www.artisonusa.com/products-masterpiece-lcr-iw.htm
You wire the center channel to each of the left/right and I believe it gives you a monoaural sound, basically splitting the center channel exactly and increasing the chance you will get a good center response. I know you can find some at a descent price (under $800/pair new) if not, let me know and I can give you some ideas. I think they retail for over $1000. Just a thought. You might look on ebay as well. 

Matteo


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