# Help in understand the amplification section in the receiver



## monykaram (Dec 23, 2011)

Dear Users,
I am new to this, forgive my ignorance but i really need somehelp,
I'm willing to buy a pioneer receiver VSX-1021. but im unable to match compatible speakers for it,
its amplification specs state the following:
›› 120W x 7 (1 kHz, THD 0.05% @ 8 ohms)
›› 90W x 7 (20 Hz – 20 kHz, THD 0.08% @ 8 ohms FTC)

*does it mean it outputs 90 watts per channel? what about the 120W? is it the maximum power output per speaker?*
it also states that the *impedance is 8 ohms*. what is this? can i use a speaker whose impedance is 4 or 6 ohms? plz advise...
Another thing in choosing the speakers: *what speaker specs should I be looking at? *How much should the power be? how many watts?* if the receiver outputs 90W / channel, the speaker must be between which range? *what is the minimum and maximum a speaker can be? please help me and advise because i am new to this and i really need some help. thank you guyz


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

First of all dont get all caught up in the numbers, They are in many ways meaningless. Receiver companies arte not goverened by any rules as to how they rate their receiver amplification sections.
Yes you can run 4-8 Ohm speakers the biggest numbers on speakers to look at is the efficiency if they have a rating of 90db or higher most receivers will have little issue driving them.
Receivers will only output there rated power output in two channel mode not all 7 or 9 as they advertise. This is a limitation of the power supply that receivers are shipped with as they are far to small to power all the channels amps. Generally receivers will only output 60% of their rated output if all channels are being used.


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

You can look here for a review of that receiver:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/receivers/1371-pioneer-vsx-1021k-71-av-receiver.html?start=4

Many speakers will have a note similar to:
Compatible with amplifiers from 40 - 160 watts. 

There is no firm rule about matching amp wattage to speaker wattage. If you under power speakers, you will turn up the receiver to get more volume, and overdrive the amp which will give you more distortion. Distortion is bad, and can cause speaker damage. If you connect a vastly overpowered amp to your speakers, you will turn it up until it is loud enough and then stop, with every thing sounding good. Unless your speakers are not powerful enough for the room, at which point you turn up the amp until you blow speakers. 

The receiver you are looking at is somewhat reasonable for the price range. Pair it with reasonably efficient speakers up to 3 times the price of the receiver and you should be ok. 

My personal preference is Onkyo receivers with Paradigm speakers, but that is just me, and just my opinion. Accessories4less can get you a onkyo 609 or maybe 709 in the price range of the pioneer, and the Paradigm Monitor 7, or 9, or 11, would blow you away.


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

monykaram said:


> Dear Users,
> I am new to this, forgive my ignorance but i really need somehelp,
> I'm willing to buy a pioneer receiver VSX-1021. but im unable to match compatible speakers for it,
> its amplification specs state the following:
> ...


The Pioneer will handle 6 ohms - 
Power Output Per Channel ([email protected]) 130 watts

You can drive many speakers with this - what speaker brands are you thinking about?

Do you like to read - some info
http://www.the-home-cinema-guide.com/matching-amps-and-speakers.html#axzz1i299iZqq

http://www.the-home-cinema-guide.com/speaker-impedance-matching.html#axzz1i299iZqq

http://www.the-home-cinema-guide.com/speaker-power-rating.html#axzz1i299iZqq


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about speaker "power". As stated above, as long as you don't play very loud material for long periods of time, most speakers will do. Sound quality is more important. Most of your listening will be in the 1 to 10 watt range. Speakers have a far greater effect on sound quality than receivers, so spend some time researching and listening to as many speakers as you can. Have fun. Dennis


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
In truth, your concerns should be reversed. Does your AVR have enough power to drive the speakers. An earlier version of the Pioneer VSX-10xx Series output less than 30 Watts when Bench Tested into 5 Channels.

Provided you are using a Subwoofer and crossover the Speakers to 80hz, most any speaker will work fine as the Subwoofer will take a great deal of stress of the AVR's Amplifiers. While somewhat counter intuitive to some, many more speakers have been blown by too little power (in the form of clipping or distortion) than from too much power.
Cheers,
JJ


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

JJ is correct: distortion (clipping, harmonic, etc.) is murder on speakers.


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## SAC (Dec 3, 2009)

But after all is said and done, its nice to know that a 100 watt amplifier (may!) generate the same amount of heat as a 100 watt incandescent light bulb - of which neither the 'loudness' nor the light output are measured in watts, but in SPL and in lumen/candlepower respectively.

Rather, the use of 'wattage' is a rather awkward way to state the performance of a stereo (when voltage is a much better indicator), just as it is with a lightbulb, seeing as how wattage indicates how much electrical energy is dissipated as heat energy - or, from another point of view, how effective your stereo or light bulb or hair dryer or toaster oven is as a space heater. 

And seeing as how we are not referencing the proper units indicating the quality that we 'really want to know', I am rather surprised that they do not change the ratings of a space heater, where the rating actually _does_ correspond to the amount of heat generated, to something more obtuse ( like maybe its horsepower ) in keeping with societies' norms of intentional obfuscation... 

And it it helps, my Vita-Mix pulverizer apparently plays louder than your amplifier as it is rated at 1350 watts...:bigsmile:
And you amp is also rated at 120w/746w/hp = .16 HP Useful, ain't it....


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

But the amplifiers do put out voltage "watts", put an incandescent light bulb on the end of your speaker wires and play some music It will power the lightbulb just fine.
The power draw that a receiver draws from the wall outlet is also measured in Watts dont expect a receiver that only draws 300wats to actually put out 1200watts to the speakers. kind of defies the laws of physics.


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

drdoan said:


> JJ is correct: distortion (clipping, harmonic, etc.) is murder on speakers.


And my ears


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> Receiver companies arte not goverened by any rules as to how they rate their receiver amplification sections.


This is patently false. All amplifiers sold in the US are rated according to FTC regulations.


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## chris71478 (Dec 2, 2011)

Hate to disagree, jackfish, but in the specs published by the manufacturer, the differences are shown. Some rate with one channel driven, some with two, some with all. Some rate with a 1khz tone, some rate with full spectrum 20Hz-20khz. These differences have massive impact on the ratings.


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## monykaram (Dec 23, 2011)

zieglj01 said:


> The Pioneer will handle 6 ohms -
> Power Output Per Channel ([email protected]) 130 watts
> 
> You can drive many speakers with this - what speaker brands are you thinking about?
> ...


thank you a lot for these helpful links, I will read them all to understand better the amplifier rating powers.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

chris71478 said:


> Hate to disagree, jackfish, but in the specs published by the manufacturer, the differences are shown. Some rate with one channel driven, some with two, some with all. Some rate with a 1khz tone, some rate with full spectrum 20Hz-20khz. These differences have massive impact on the ratings.


How can you disagree with fact? Amplifier power ratings are governed by regulations, that is a fact.

http://law.justia.com/cfr/title16/16-1.0.1.4.47.html

Sure the application of the rules can result in some differences, but if one understands the rules and what is being specified, the results are also understandable.


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

jackfish said:


> How can you disagree with fact? Amplifier power ratings are governed by regulations, that is a fact.
> 
> http://law.justia.com/cfr/title16/16-1.0.1.4.47.html
> 
> Sure the application of the rules can result in some differences, but if one understands the rules and what is being specified, the results are also understandable.


These rules can be twisted to the point of dumbfounding the masses into thinking they are getting something good, when actually they have no idea what they are getting. I have no experience with HTIB systems so I did a quick Internet search and the first one I found was a Samsung advertised at 1000W for $199. Sounds like an impressive deal. Not trying to pick on Samsung here, just the first I found, and I'm sure their competitors conduct business likewise. It took much longer to find anymore disclosure of what they meant by 1000W. After downloading the owners manual, I found that it is 166W x2 front, 166W center, 166W x2 rear, and 170W Sub. The Freq range is listed as 140-20k for front/center/rear and 40-160. Sounds impressive...but. The law jackfish posted says:


> Whenever any direct or indirect representation is made of the power output, power band or power frequency response, or distortion characteristics of sound power amplification equipment, the following disclosure shall be made clearly, conspicuously, and more prominently than any other representations or disclosures permitted under this part: The manufacturer's rated minimum sine wave continuous average power output, in watts, per channel (if the equipment is designed to amplify two or more channels simultaneously) at an impedance of 8 ohms, or, if the amplifier is not designed for an 8-ohm impedance, at the impedance for which the amplifier is primarily designed, measured with all associated channels fully driven to rated per channel power. Provided, however, when measuring maximum per channel output of self-powered combination speaker systems that employ two or more amplifiers dedicated to different portions of the audio frequency spectrum, such as those incorporated into combination subwoofer-satellite speaker systems, only those channels dedicated to the same audio frequency spectrum should be considered associated channels that need be fully driven simultaneously to rated per channel power.


All the wattage #'s Samsung provides is amplifier into 3ohms, with 3ohm speakers, but the liturature provided does not specify if the speakers are 3 ohm nominal or 3 ohm minimum. If they are 3 ohm minimum, than the wattage output across the frequency spectrum is meaningless.

The rules also state that Sub and mains power can be stated independently, which Samsung has done. However, with a passive sub powered off the receiver this is misleading as it cannot be representative of normal consumer use.

Under the optional disclosure section of the rules, it is acceptable to post wattage with 2 channels driven, to seperate the power level of each amp channel as Samsung as done. Under the requiered section which I have quoted, it is wrong to independantly measure the 5 channels driving the same frequency range, and simply add their totals.

The info presented by the manufacturer shows an amplifier capable of 166W/ch, 2 ch driven 140hz-20khz, 3ohm nominal, but the 1000W rating lies in the realm of fantasy, if not criminal misreprentation. Not to mention that I didnt find the distortion spec at rated power.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

jackfish said:


> This is patently false. All amplifiers sold in the US are rated according to FTC regulations.


If that was the case then most receiver companies would be facing lawsuits, every receiver bench tested that I have seen fail driving all channels to what the specifications on the manufacturers websites say. Some do better than others and some are so bad that its a disgrace but not one lives up to the laws you state. 
The wording on the specifications is very misleading and gives the average user false security that they are getting true 120 watts (or whatever the specifications are) all channels driven when in fact this is not the case.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> If that was the case then most receiver companies would be facing lawsuits, every receiver bench tested that I have seen fail driving all channels to what the specifications on the manufacturers websites say. Some do better than others and some are so bad that its a disgrace but not one lives up to the laws you state.
> The wording on the specifications is very misleading and gives the average user false security that they are getting true 120 watts (or whatever the specifications are) all channels driven when in fact this is not the case.


Indeed. It is absolutely laughable just how far off many AVR's actual measured power is compared to its rated power. This is especially true of sub $500 AVR's. Even worse is just how many consumers will choose a lower quality AVR because it is rated at 110x7 as opposed to 90 or 100x7. 

The vast discrepancy between rated and actual power should be Investigated. On the plus side, very few people actually need anything close to 100 Watts into 7 Channels. Companies like NAD, Harman Kardon, and Onkyo should be commended for actually coming close to meeting or exceeding their rated power.
Cheers,
JJ


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

SAC said:


> But after all is said and done, its nice to know that a 100 watt amplifier (may!) generate the same amount of heat as a 100 watt incandescent light bulb - of which neither the 'loudness' nor the light output are measured in watts, but in SPL and in lumen/candlepower respectively.
> 
> Rather, the use of 'wattage' is a rather awkward way to state the performance of a stereo (when voltage is a much better indicator), just as it is with a lightbulb, seeing as how wattage indicates how much electrical energy is dissipated as heat energy - or, from another point of view, how effective your stereo or light bulb or hair dryer or toaster oven is as a space heater.
> 
> ...


Voltage would not be a very good indicator at all. Power is the appropriate measure, though it has to be qualified by response specifications and whether all channels are driven, as well as the load.

If we just specified voltage, one could build a very powerful amp that would deliver virtually no current. Not a very appealing design...:help: would be needed to drive a real loudspeaker load effetively.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

jackfish said:


> How can you disagree with fact? Amplifier power ratings are governed by regulations, that is a fact.
> 
> http://law.justia.com/cfr/title16/16-1.0.1.4.47.html
> 
> Sure the application of the rules can result in some differences, but if one understands the rules and what is being specified, the results are also understandable.


Agreed, there are indeed government regulations for amplifiers sold in the United States. The problem is that many manufacturers have found ways to deceive the average consumer while still staying within the regulations.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The other problem with the "regulations" posted is that its all done under lab tests that are far from realistic. I believe that tests are done with a 1kHz tone, how is that by any means realistic in the real world we all send full frequency or at least in the area of 60Hz up to 20kHz and of course use many different speaker brands some that are very inefficient or that have very wide swings in resistance.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

tesseract said:


> Agreed, there are indeed government regulations for amplifiers sold in the United States. The problem is that many manufacturers have found ways to deceive the average consumer while still staying within the regulations.


What happened to "buyer beware"? I know a large segment of our population wants it hands held in all manner of transactions in life, but sometimes people just have to suck it up and gain some competency before making decisions.


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## SAC (Dec 3, 2009)

lcaillo said:


> Voltage would not be a very good indicator at all. Power is the appropriate measure, though it has to be qualified by response specifications and whether all channels are driven, as well as the load.
> 
> If we just specified voltage, one could build a very powerful amp that would deliver virtually no current. Not a very appealing design...:help: would be needed to drive a real loudspeaker load effetively.


Oh, you mean like an amp that would be comparatively optimal to drive an electrostatic speaker?

Let's see...100volts at 1 amp or 1 volt at 100 amps - yup...as they both generate 100 watts of heat they are equivalent!

What the amplifier is capable of providing is independent of the load. But what the total actual result is depends on the interaction of the source AND the characteristic of the load.

Provide the actual voltage and current capacity of the amplifier without assuming some imagined load for the speaker and one knowledgeable of how such things function can determine the rest for any given load.

Until then we get how much heat is generated by the conversion of electrical energy to heat and the ratings that indicate at what heat level the physical components enter a destructive mode. All without any indication of sensitivity or SPL. The aspects that the average person incorrectly assumes that the "wattage" indicates! (and as if "wattage" provides any useful indication of how loud a speaker plays as opposed to how much heat can be dissipated before the mechanical limits are exceeded and the speaker enters a destructive mode!)

And just like trying to compare an incandescent light bulb with a CFL light bulb, such a comparison based upon wattage has NO comparative value in determining the desired light output measured in lumen or candlepower. And unless we are an HVAC designer, everyone cares desperately about how effective a heater their light bulbs are.

I wonder, just how do those crazy SET folks justify their mega(sic)-amps performance? Or is wattage _not _the determining criteria?

Wattage ratings of amps...Useful indeed. But that is why quality manufacturers DO include voltage ratings.

And to be even more complete, simple voltage and current ratings, although more useful and meaningful than simplistic wattage, are not complete either...


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## SAC (Dec 3, 2009)

dbl post


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

jackfish said:


> What happened to "buyer beware"? I know a large segment of our population wants it hands held in all manner of transactions in life, but sometimes people just have to suck it up and gain some competency before making decisions.


That is one way to look at it. Pay due diligence if you want the best value for your dollar. 

Another take is that not everybody wants to learn as much about this hobby as we care to. Some manufacturers play on that and toe the line with inflated ratings. The only intent I can see is to deceive, and this is why the FTC was forced to step in with regulations in the first place.


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## chris71478 (Dec 2, 2011)

jackfish said:


> What happened to "buyer beware"? I know a large segment of our population wants it hands held in all manner of transactions in life, but sometimes people just have to suck it up and gain some competency before making decisions.


Strange, I thought that the OP was here trying to gain some competence and perspective.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

chris71478 said:


> Strange, I thought that the OP was here trying to gain some competence and perspective.


That is true. That's why I said what I did. Reading the discussion and sources supplied by posters here, the FTC regulations, and examining how it all relates to what a manufacturer publishes will help them gain that. I agree that it is still very misleading, the industry itself pushed hard against a more comprehensive set of rules that would make it easier to make comparisions between products. There are things that manufacturers must do according to the rule and then there are things they are allowed to do. It helps to understand those differences when looking at amplifier specs. tonyvdb obviously does not understand the rule by the comments made. In addition, most marketing materials are not following the letter of the rule, one usually needs to go to the product manual specifications to find FTC compliant specifications. However, without the rule it could be much worse.

Long gone are the days (1970s) when the manufacturers themselves were in a low THD wars and specs were always given as continuous or RMS power, two channels driven (mostly stereo back then) into the specified impedance at 20Hz-20kHz and a specified THD. They kept testing to get ridiculously low THDs which meant lowering the rated power. Many manufacturers today still list their specs similarly as would be allowed under FTC regulations. It is quite possible to infer what power will result from testing into 1 kHz as opposed to 20Hz-20kHz or 0.1% THD as opposed to 0.05% THD or even 0.005% THD.


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## gsmollin (Apr 25, 2006)

monykaram said:


> Dear Users,
> I am new to this, forgive my ignorance but i really need somehelp,
> I'm willing to buy a pioneer receiver VSX-1021. but im unable to match compatible speakers for it,
> its amplification specs state the following:
> ...



The 90 W spec is a continuous-average-power rating, with two channels driven. The "FTC" is the federal trade commission, and there are some laws about amplifier ratings requiring two channels with a continuous sine wave in power tests.
The 120 W spec is with only 1 channel driven, and it may be a burst power spec, where the power is applied for only a short time. This allows a higher power supply voltage to push more power for a short period. This spec is actually more accurate for a home theater amplifier, because speech and music have an average power no more than 10% of the peak power in the waveform. The 8 ohm impedance spec is actually an 8 ohm load resistor used to load the amplifier for the power test. Amplifier power tests are always resistive loads, since the real power is maximized into a resistor.

The speaker impedance spec actually reads like this: "Guaranteed speaker impedance... 6 ohms to 16 ohms."

You cannot connect a 4 ohm speaker to this amplifier. I also have a problem with the way the spec is written, since the "8 ohm" spec given by many speaker vendors is only an average number. For instance, it is not unusual for an 8 ohm, 3-way speaker's impedance to dip below 4 ohms at the woofer-midrange crossover frequency. B&W specs a minimum impedance of 3.5 ohms on most of their "8 ohm", 3-way speakers. Is that outside the spec for this amplifier? Unfortunately, I have had personally bad experience with a Pioneer AVR, in trying to drive speakers with an impedance dip at the crossover frequency. I had to Craig's-list it. Instead I bought an AVR with a 4 ohm spec, and haven't had problems since then. So I recommend buying an amp with 4 ohm ratings to drive 8 ohm speakers, and 2 ohm ratings to drive 4 ohm speakers.

Speakers are usually power tested with a pink noise signal that has been compressed to have a 6 dB crest factor or 4x. According to that, you can connect a 30 W speaker to a 120 W amplifier. The crest factor in program material ranges between 10 dB and 20 dB, which is a huge range of 10x to 100x. So you should be safe from a program standpoint, unless there is some transient that dumps a lot of power. If that is a worry, then you can add fuses to the speaker lines, although fuses degrade speaker damping. If you are fusing, you should bi-wire, because you can put a smaller fuse on the tweeter wire; the tweeter is usually the victim when there is an overload at the speaker.

There is no minimum amplifier rating to connect to a speaker. A 1 W amplifier can drive most speakers to clearly audible levels.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Combined with the fact that most HT's use Subwoofers, most really do not need anywhere near 100 Watts into 5 Channels. Or 50 Watts for that matter. Most of my annoyance about this subject comes from just how off the ratings are and the fact that often folks will choose an AVR with perhaps 10 Watts more rated power when in truth it is actually less powerful than the less powerful AVR.
Cheers,
JJ


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

This is how the 1021 turned out
http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-vsx-1021-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Glad to see it did better than the 1019 which output something like 28.7 Watts into 5 Channels.
Cheers,
JJ


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## gsmollin (Apr 25, 2006)

zieglj01 said:


> This is how the 1021 turned out
> http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-vsx-1021-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures


45 W/channel is a lot of power. Program material has no less than a 10 dB crest factor, so a 100 W amplifier can't produce more than 10 W average without clipping on the peaks. THX recommends allowing 20 dB headroom for peaks, so your 100 W amp would be running at 1 W average, if you allowed that much. Personally, I think 13 dB is the correct peak-to-average compromise.


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

gsmollin said:


> 45 W/channel is a lot of power. Program material has no less than a 10 dB crest factor, so a 100 W amplifier can't produce more than 10 W average without clipping on the peaks. THX recommends allowing 20 dB headroom for peaks, so your 100 W amp would be running at 1 W average, if you allowed that much. Personally, I think 13 dB is the correct peak-to-average compromise.


The 1021 will make a lot of people happy - What is interesting is the Denon 1612, rated 75 watts
into 8 ohms - a $349 receiver, this is how it turned out

Number of Amp Channels: 5
Rated Power (watts per channel): 75 into 8 ohms, 5 channels driven
Specified Frequency Response: 20Hz to 20kHz
Video Processing: none
Auto Setup/Room EQ: Audyssey MultEQ
Dimensions (W x H x D, inches): 17 x 6.4 x 15
Weight (pounds): 20
Price: $349 

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-1612-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

zieglj01 said:


> This is how the 1021 turned out
> http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-vsx-1021-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures


And here is the amplifier section specifications from the Pioneer VSX-1021-K AV receiver manual:
Continuous average power output of 90 watts* per channel, min., at 8 Ohms, from 20 Hz to 20000 Hz with no more than 0.08%** total harmonic distortion.
Front (stereo) 90 W + 90 W
*Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission's Trade regulation rule on Power Output Claims for Amplifiers
** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyzer

According to the HT Labs tests this receiver achieves 106 watts per channel with two channels driven into 8 Ohms and 0.1% distortion. So, Pioneer's specifications from the VSX-1021-K manual are an accurate representation of the amplifier section's performance under the conditions prescribed by the rule. 

Remember that the FTC rule only requires that two channels be driven. Are the marketing materials misleading? Sure, if the consumer takes them at face value. But even the product sheet gives the specs as: 90W x 7 (20 Hz - 20 kHz, THD 0.08% @ 8 Ohms FTC)
The FTC qualifier suggests the consumer become familiar with what that means.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I dont understand how the Denon AVR-1612 would make people happy, Its supposed to output 110watts per channel, 75watts is not great for a receiver thats rated to output much more.
The Onkyo 609 has the same price point and has more features and was bench tested to do quite a bit better.


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> I dont understand how the Denon AVR-1612 would make people happy, Its supposed to output 110watts per channel, 75watts is not great for a receiver thats rated to output much more.
> The Onkyo 609 has the same price point and has more features and was bench tested to do quite a bit better.


Denon is rating it 75 watts into 8 ohms, 20 - 20 khz
and 120 watts into 6 ohms (1000 khz)

Due to the lack of Video processing, it is not first on my list


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

zieglj01 said:


> Denon is rating it 75 watts into 8 ohms, 20 - 20 khz
> and 120 watts into 6 ohms (1000 khz)


There is that 1KHz test again, that is the most meaningless test ever created. That is so irrelevant to real world use its laughable.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> I dont understand how the Denon AVR-1612 would make people happy, Its supposed to output 110watts per channel, 75watts is not great for a receiver thats rated to output much more.
> The Onkyo 609 has the same price point and has more features and was bench tested to do quite a bit better.


I don't know where you get the 110 watts per channel figure. Here are the specifications for the Denon AVR-1612:
Rated output *THD figures are power amp stage values.
Front L/R 75 W + 75 W
(8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, THD 0.08 %)
120 W + 120 W
(6 ohms, 1 kHz, THD 0.7%)
Center 75 W
(8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, THD 0.08 %)
120 W
(6 ohms, 1 kHz, THD 0.7%)
Surround L/R 75 W + 75 W
(8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, THD 0.08 %)
120 W + 120 W
(6 ohms, 1 kHz, THD 0.7%)

It appears that the Denon does pretty much meet its specs according to the HT Labs testing which found it to produce 71.5 watts per channel with five channels driven THD 0.1%. If one infers the FTC rules in the above specs, the Denon certainly exceeds the given specs when only two channels (one in the case of the Center) are driven.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> There is that 1KHz test again, that is the most meaningless test ever created. That is so irrelevant to real world use its laughable.


Tell that to sound reinforcement engineers. They would be laughing at you.


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> There is that 1KHz test again, that is the most meaningless test ever created. That is so irrelevant to real world use its laughable.


I am not a fan of 1 khz specs - it is that marketing thing.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Denon's own website even states it does 120 watts X 5 those number are way off actual tests how is that a good thing?. (Sorry the 110 was a typo)


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

jackfish said:


> Tell that to sound reinforcement engineers. They would be laughing at you.


Want to know a good test? use full band pink noise, now that is a real test.
Even my Onkyo 805 and the 875 that are now over 4 years old did way better on those tests.


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Denon's own website even states it does 120 watts X 5 those number are way off actual tests how is that a good thing?. (Sorry the 110 was a typo)


The 120 watts is for the 6 ohms, 1000 khz specs

The manual reads, 75 watts into 8 ohms 20 - 20 khz


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> Denon's own website even states it does 120 watts X 5 those number are way off actual tests how is that a good thing?. (Sorry the 110 was a typo)


In one place on the website they state "Discrete Power Amps rated at 75 watts each" which fits the 8 Ohm, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.08% THD specification and in another place they state "Equal power amp design with five discrete 120-watt channels" which fits the 6 Ohm, 1 kHz, 0.7% THD specification. Don't buy it until you understand the numbers.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

That is so misleading to the average consumer, I dont get how 75watts is a good rating. The system is broken what more can I say. 
Most of us serious audio guys always add external amplification for good reason regardless if "45watts should be more than enough" Distortion is so possible with ratings like that.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> Want to know a good test? use full band pink noise, now that is a real test.
> Even my Onkyo 805 and the 875 that are now over 4 years old did way better on those tests.


A real test for what? Loudspeakers, room acoustics and crossover networks? Why would it be any better than a 1kHz tone when looking at the relative attributes of different amplifiers? And I think you meant IEC filtered pink noise, not full band pink noise. I wouldn't want to subject an amplifier to unfettered pink noise which really wouldn't serve any purpose for amplifier testing.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> Most of us serious audio guys...


Come on, man! You can't be serious.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

jackfish said:


> Why would it be any better than a 1kHz tone when looking at the relative attributes of different amplifiers? And I think you meant IEC filtered pink noise, not full band pink noise.


1kHz is way to limited we all know that music or movies are far more dynamic than a 1kHz test tone and unrealistic.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

jackfish said:


> Come on, man! You can't be serious.


No comment......:rolleyesno:


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> 1kHz is way to limited we all know that music or movies are far more dynamic than a 1kHz test tone and unrealistic.


Yes, music and movies are far more dynamic than being fed a band limited pink noise signal, which is as unrealistic as a 1 kHz test tone because I don't see any home amplifier manufacturers testing for crest factor which would be a useful indicator of amplifier dynamic performance.


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## smurphy522 (Sep 21, 2010)

I'm going out on a limb here but I think with all the rant going on the OP was lost on the 7th post (sorry SAC). anyhow the point was made earlier and links were provided so hopefully the OP went the right directyion and put the bulk of the budget towards speakers.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Folks, I understand that you mean well. Please discuss these differences of opinion in a civil manner. :cop:


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## gsmollin (Apr 25, 2006)

jackfish said:


> Yes, music and movies are far more dynamic than being fed a band limited pink noise signal, which is as unrealistic as a 1 kHz test tone because I don't see any home amplifier manufacturers testing for crest factor which would be a useful indicator of amplifier dynamic performance.


Pink noise has a 13 dB crest factor, and is a more realistic signal for an amplifier than any single tone test. Speaker manufacturers use a similar, compressed signal with a 6 dB crest factor as a power test. Single tone and swept frequency tests are simple and use simple test equipment that was available in 1950. They are still in use, and I'm not sure why, because they are unrealistic. Program material is better simulated with noise signals than with any tones, and if we wanted to see realistic testing, it would be with a noise source. It wouldn't be pink noise though. Years ago the broadcast industry developed USASI noise to simulate program material. It continues to be used today. If manufacturers rated their amps with USASI noise, the power numbers would be much lower, but then the amps could meet the specs with all channels driven.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

gsmollin, Thank you for that. I agree USASI noise would be useful, but it obviously is not required for amplifier power output claims.

My original point being that there is enough information published by manaufacturers to determine the relative differences in power output between various products.


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