# New Sub for under 500



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

Ok I have been asking this question around to get a good idea of what to get. Here is my question:

Ok new guy here and have been lurking for a while. I am in the market for a new Sub to work with my new Devon AVR-2311CI. This is my current setup: I have a pair of front Klipsch RF52, pair of rear klipsch RS42, Center Klipsch RC-10 and a 21 year old Velodyne S-1200-b sub (Sealed Servo Controlled). My room is a family room/dinning room. The overall size of the room is: 25.5'(L)x 11.5'(D)x8'(H). The room is open with two large entry ways on each side. I have a couch, with an adjacent love seat and a big chair in the corner. My listen area is: 15'(L)x'11.5'(D)x8'(H). 

I really like my velodyne and hate to replace it but my lower level gaming system (a Creative Gigaworks S700 with DDTS-100...died...the DDTS-100 is still good but the S700 amp is shot!). This was an awesome setup surprisingly! Movies and games were shockingly amazing! The processing was absolutely amazing!!! The Bass was also ideal...a 10" down firing with a rear port 210 Watt sub did my lower level setup justice...in fact it sounded substantially better than my Onkyo...really not surprised! This system use to be upstairs and excelled up there...unfortunately it is no longer made...it was 7 years old. So I need to replace it. I figured I would move my Onkyo SR-605 downstairs since I have the Denon AVR-2311 and also move the Velodynes down there as well and use the THX sats with the Onkyo in the lower level. Essentially upgrading my HT upstairs setup. 

Sorry for the long post but I am looking to match up my upstairs Denon AVR-2311CI, and klipsch with a new sub. It is entirely 100% HT (TV, Blu-ray, my wife loves idol and x-factor). I have in the past tested a number of subs. The velodynes was a hand-me-down from my dad...nice hand me down!! That sub is tight, deep, accurate, not boomy...I like it!! I had a dynamo 500 tried it in a downward firing and front...downward was felt more then heard, front had no balls and big gaps. I also had a ADS MS3 (old boomy sub) it was garbage. But the sealed velodyne was excellent. I did have the gigaworks system up there in the exact same placement and it was once again stellar!! The processing from the DDTS-100 was shear amazing! Cant say enough good about it! 

Ok so now I have narrowed down my sub replacement search down to: 
Emotiva Ultra 12 (329 shipped!!!) This is soooo tempting!
Epik Legend (499...I can pick it up, live close to epik)
SuperCube 2000 (Sale 498)
HSU VFT-1 (419) no port and downward only in this location in the past didnt do well
Rythmik FV12 (499)
Outlaw LFM-1 Compact (399)

I love the price on the Ultra 12, I am leaning towards it!!! But I have not heard it. I have heard the SC2000 and it is capable of filling a room but I am not certain of Defs specs. It doesnt seem as tight or accurate plus it seems like a 7 1/2" drive would lack low end. They rate their stuff a little high consider there is no +/- db. The Legend is really impressive and read nothing but good...just like the Ultra 12! I have also heard a ton of good about the VFT-1...but no port in that location provided to be more felt then heard...like the dynamo. I dont know much about the others. 

Oh one note, my floors are pergo so they help! Couch medium plush. Thanks for the


----------



## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Welcome to the Forum. Have fun. Dennis


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

drdoan said:


> Welcome to the Forum. Have fun. Dennis


Thanks Dennis! Been lurking for awhile looks like a nice group of people!


----------



## Guest (Nov 19, 2011)

As a fellow Emo 12 owner, it is a great sub. I got mine for music and it will some day (hopefully this year) be hooked up to my HTPC for movie duty too.

As good as a sub that it is, I'm not sure I'd pick it for 100% movie playback with klipsch mains.

I'd look in to ported subs for that. On the other hand, it's a clean sounding sub and the sale price is hard to pass up. I'd get a 2nd one if my piggy bank wasn't being filled for a projector.

I installed one of these and was surprised at how well it sounded. Two of these might be better then 1 better sub. http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-F...8Y5M/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1321736411&sr=8-2

I was expecting a little bit of a boomy sound from a budget sub, but it surprised me. Sounds good.


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

Ok posted these finding from today elsewhere as well.

Ok so I got a chance today to have a long listen to a Definitive Tech SC2000. It is quite powerful, it can certainly fill a room pretty good considering its size however it is quite muddy, inaccurate far to boomy for any scenes in a movie that have any music. I am sure it wasnt calibrated right and has been messed with a thousand times but it just came off wrong to me. It is onsale but overall it is a sub I dont think is precise enough for my taste. It doesnt have the low end extension either. It is however a sub very well suited for someone who doesnt have much space. It isnt horrible, I just have a picky ear and can hear things others generally cant. So the SC2000 is off my short list. It was on sale for 498. Once again the size is impressive...I couldnt believe how small it was! It can certainly produce decent lows but lacked low end and precision.


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

So I am stepping back, too many have told me I shouldnt over look a ported. Not all ported are bad so I would like to look more at them once such as:

Elemental Design AD-300
Rythmik FV12
HSU STF-2

Prices are pretty good! And they all seem well liked! Unfortunately I know nothing about any of them.


----------



## Guest (Nov 20, 2011)

Perhaps I've never heard the right one, but I don't like down firing subs.

What about this guy? http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=951

I doubt you could really go wrong with any of them. Just double check the return policy. Many factory direct places have a 30 day in home trial. I'd say give that Emo 12 a try, but because it's a clearance item, they don't offer a 30 day in home trial. Too bad really, you might like it, even if it is sealed. The current price is fantastic.


----------



## Guest (Nov 20, 2011)

This isn't really following the trend of ported subs, but this kit is what I was looking at as well when I chose my Emo sub. http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/subwoofer-speaker-kits/sb-acoustics-12-powered-subwoofer-kit/

For me, price and a 5 year warranty won out, but I wonder how well this bad boy is. SB drivers are suppose to be really good.


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

soapboxpreacher said:


> So I am stepping back, too many have told me I shouldnt over look a ported. Not all ported are bad so I would like to look more at them once such as:
> 
> Elemental Design AD-300
> Rythmik FV12
> ...


I think the FV12s should be a good choice.

Ideally I would want two or three but it doesn't seem to be in your budget.


----------



## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Elemental Designs would be a good choice as well Parts Express has some great deals on subs right now that you could even afford to buy multiples in your price range.:T


----------



## MikeBiker (Jan 3, 2010)

If I was choosing a new sub in the $500 range, I'd get the Rythmik VF-12. If not the Rythmik, then the Epik Legend. I'd also be budgeting for a second one in the future to help fill the room with bass.


----------



## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

If there's any way you can stretch your budget to get the SVS PB12-NSD, I can't recommend it highly enough. Fantastic sound for HT, and accurate enough for music, as well. Completely blows my Emotiva Ultra 12 out of the water, there's just no comparison. (At least, not in this large room... the Emo is very nice for music or in a smaller room.)


----------



## MikeBiker (Jan 3, 2010)

KalaniP said:


> If there's any way you can stretch your budget to get the SVS PB12-NSD, I can't recommend it highly enough. Fantastic sound for HT, and accurate enough for music, as well. Completely blows my Emotiva Ultra 12 out of the water, there's just no comparison. (At least, not in this large room... the Emo is very nice for music or in a smaller room.)


There is no end to budget stretching. I originally budgeted $500, which went to $800 and is now at $1150. Of course, this has pushed my new sub acquisition date out. I guess I'll have to live with the old sub for a while longer.


----------



## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

MikeBiker said:


> There is no end to budget stretching. I originally budgeted $500, which went to $800 and is now at $1150. Of course, this has pushed my new sub acquisition date out. I guess I'll have to live with the old sub for a while longer.


I hear ya. 

The SVS sub price includes shipping, which does help even the odds a little against $500 subs (that don't include shipping, which can be substantial on heavy subs). It's way less than $1150, however, not sure where that number is coming from. $769 flat, so under your $800 figure.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm


----------



## MikeBiker (Jan 3, 2010)

KalaniP said:


> I hear ya.
> 
> The SVS sub price includes shipping, which does help even the odds a little against $500 subs (that don't include shipping, which can be substantial on heavy subs). It's way less than $1150, however, not sure where that number is coming from. $769 flat, so under your $800 figure.
> 
> http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm


I'm no longer budgeting for the SVS PB-12NSD. I've got my eyes on a 15" sub from Rythmik.
Now, if I just resist the call of the 18"ers.


----------



## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

MikeBiker said:


> I'm no longer budgeting for the SVS PB-12NSD. I've got my eyes on a 15" sub from Rythmik.
> Now, if I just resist the call of the 18"ers.


LOL

It's a disease, I tell you...


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

Ok ordered a FV12 and a Legend. Prize Fight review coming!


----------



## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

soapboxpreacher said:


> Ok ordered a FV12 and a Legend. Prize Fight review coming!


Alright! Please, keep us posted.


----------



## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

tesseract said:


> Alright! Please, keep us posted.


+1!


----------



## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

tesseract said:


> Alright! Please, keep us posted.


+2 :T

I've not seen many head-to-heads against the Epik, curious to see how this goes. I very nearly went with it instead of the SVS.


----------



## MikeBiker (Jan 3, 2010)

Head to head comparisons are always interesting. Do you have any specific methods that you will be using in comparing them or will you just be winging it?


----------



## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

I'll be interested to hear your results as well. I am real happy with my Epik Legend that replaced a SVS PB10-NSD. It's not as loud but I'm constantly impressed with the way it sounds.


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

Movie testing...I could care less about levels or hz...it. In the end your ears are the judge. Anyone in the north burbs of chitown you are welcome in. I do have an SPL meter and will have it out. I am going to throw in the Velodynes as a reference point. I dont have a ton of new movies for I do netflix blu-ray. I do have iRobot, and a few others...actually have better stuff on HD-DVD... it! I will try and post pictures as well.


----------



## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

natescriven said:


> I'll be interested to hear your results as well. I am real happy with my Epik Legend that replaced a SVS PB10-NSD. It's not as loud but I'm constantly impressed with the way it sounds.


Which generation (year) PB10?

I wish SVS would update their model designations more frequently than their model configurations... makes it hard to know just what people are referring to sometimes!

Or am I confusing myself? (it happens on occasion with all the alphabet soup inherent in these hobbies)

Edit: Ah, just re-read, my bad. The now-discontinued PB*10*, not the current PB12. Interesting that they dropped all 10" subs.


----------



## MikeBiker (Jan 3, 2010)

KalaniP said:


> Which generation (year) PB10?
> 
> I wish SVS would update their model designations more frequently than their model configurations... makes it hard to know just what people are referring to sometimes!
> 
> ...


I'm glad to find out that I am not the only one who finds the various letter/number designations used in industry confusing. It took me a while to figure out that a sub with a P or V in the nomenclature was a ported sub and one with a S was sealed.


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

Got the legend today and was switching between my old Velodynes to the legend and at first I was disappointed till I played a few more blu-rays and DVDs not to mention dialed it in. It isnt as tight or accurate as my velodynes but it has far more output and much more low end hz. This is just my initial 4 hours of use finding. It is sounding better and I am hearing and seeing things that I did not. Star Wars Ep 2 assassination bombing scene with the velodynes it bottomed out and could not play it...the legend went through it much better with some minor strain but it pulled it off. The SPL is far and away higher with the legend. I did have to dial it up past 12 o'clock but it is going good at about 65-70%. It is crossed over at 120hz, I found it better at 120 then 100hz. My son got a little tired of watching iRobot scenes 3-6x but I want to make sure I had it set right. Nothing worse then a bad setup/configuration!


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

This mornings findings:

Avatar Testing with both the Velodynes and the Legend. I have noticed something over every listening test. The Legend has the 25hz and below covered. Not perfect but it can handle it. It does lose its composure but it can go where the velodynes cant. But I prefer the velodynes. It has soo much more control and accuracy it isnt funny. It cant handle as much power (upper level volume) as the legend but from 25-100hz it is so much better then the legend. Watching the first 6 minutes of avatar over 4x with each sub I could here things different with both. The legend could handle the lows of th accent into pandora where the velodynes didnt have the range...however the legend didnt handle it well. But everything from the mech walking to the big dump truck passing "meals on wheels" was much better on the velodynes. I am amazed at how accurate the velodynes is. It makes the Legend come off as muddy (it isnt that muddy or boomy but the velodynes is soooo precise!, but when it goes beyond its range it bottoms hard trying to do what it cant...it is rare but it happens). So the verdict is still out but I would stick with my velodynes at the point. I am beginning to be a believer of the servo. One other note. The 25-100hz range really baffled me, for the velodynes presences is so much more obvious and appreciated it isnt even funny. The legend missed so much in this area. There was a big difference. Surprising to is that I felt more from the velodynes as well. I have now listened in several different positions. I also believe that the velodynes with its forward facing design is better in the position I have then the legend so to be fair I think some of this might be position. But I was told that this sub was suppose to be less position sensitive then the other subs. When it comes to 25hz or below the velodynes is done but because the legend can do below 25hz does mean it does it perfect all the time. Add volume and it cant keep its composure very well but still manages thru it. Still more testing to go so stay tuned.


----------



## MikeBiker (Jan 3, 2010)

Very interesting findings. Sometimes, the newest stuff is not quite a good as the old stuff. I expect that my next sub purchase will be one with servo control.


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

Just remember that velodynes with its servo is very responsive, tight and accurate...more then an overwhelming amount of subs heres why:

100w rms w/3500 corrections per second on the servo amp

But the velodynes cant go as low as the legend nor has the output..the velodynes bottoms easy but only at higher levels...the legend is a lot tougher! But 20+ years of service with the velodynes does speak for itself. It has seen its fair sure of new competitors to still be left standing! It isnt perfect but I like it. From the 25-100 hz it is really good! Below...no go!


----------



## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

Many people including myself felt that the Legend got much better with some break in time. Maybe you can leave some stuff on for a while.


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

natescriven said:


> Many people including myself felt that the Legend got much better with some break in time. Maybe you can leave some stuff on for a while.


Think you might be right. It is starting to show some of the mid bass hz it was initially missing. Funny thing is chad told me it did not need to be broken in. I am starting to believe it does.


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Deep bass also affects your perception of midbass. A sub with lots of deep bass should sound "slower" because deep bass itself is "slower". Often times the perceived "tight" sub is actually coloring the response by "cutting out" slow frequencies. Now I don't know all the various factors attributing to what you're hearing, but that's my suspicion.



soapboxpreacher said:


> Think you might be right. It is starting to show some of the mid bass hz it was initially missing. Funny thing is chad told me it did not need to be broken in. I am starting to believe it does.


Assuming break-in is actually happening, the effect of the increased compliance would be reducing midbass, not increasing it. 

I think what's happening is that you're starting to get used to the change in presentation is all and what you initially perceived as less bass is starting to feel just right as your mind no longer looks for bloated midbass...


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

GranteedEV said:


> Deep bass also affects your perception of midbass. A sub with lots of deep bass should sound "slower" because deep bass itself is "slower". Often times the perceived "tight" sub is actually coloring the response by "cutting out" slow frequencies. Now I don't know all the various factors attributing to what you're hearing, but that's my suspicion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not in 100% agreement because as the cone suspension, elastic rubber ring, voice coils, etc work in...the entire woofer gets more fluid...moves easier, hence 1 watt out of the box will be different than 1 watt after numerous hours of use. The more it worked in the easier it is to move. Rubber will loosen up to a point make it easier for the woofer to move air. Same said about the voice coils, signal path burns in...so on and so further. Woofer suspension would also loosen up. So I disagree with the reduction in mid bass for the entire woofer is able to move better and smoother. There was very little to no presents of mid bass out of the box from the legend going back and forth between the 2 subs, you could clearly hear what was missing and what was present between one sub to the next. No bloated midbass just no midbass or very little of it...as if the legend had a crossover set to 35hz (Which it was not). I continued to switch between the two and after now 16 hours listening to the same scenes I can start to hear what I could not...nothing to do with the mind or getting use to it...a side by side makes exposed what was and was not plain and simple. The Legend has gotten better but still not in the same neighborhood as the Velodynes...which has countless hours of use on it.


----------



## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

soapboxpreacher said:


> Ok ordered a FV12 and a Legend. Prize Fight review coming!


Ok, so we have your impressions of the Legend vs. your old Velodynes... when is the FV12 coming?  Servo vs. Servo smackdown!

I REALLY wish someone could get you an SVS PB13-NSD to compare in the mix...


----------



## MikeBiker (Jan 3, 2010)

KalaniP said:


> Ok, so we have your impressions of the Legend vs. your old Velodynes... when is the FV12 coming?  Servo vs. Servo smackdown!
> 
> I REALLY wish someone could get you an SVS PB13-NSD to compare in the mix...


For sub comparisons to be really meaningful, the subs should be close to each other in price. The PB13-NSD is more expensive and not in the same class as the Legend and FV12.


----------



## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

MikeBiker said:


> For sub comparisons to be really meaningful, the subs should be close to each other in price. The PB13-NSD is more expensive and not in the same class as the Legend and FV12.


On the other hand, he's comparing the Legend to Velodyne subs. Are those in the same price bracket? (or, given that his velos are older, would the current versions be comparable?)


----------



## MikeBiker (Jan 3, 2010)

KalaniP said:


> On the other hand, he's comparing the Legend to Velodyne subs. Are those in the same price bracket? (or, given that his velos are older, would the current versions be comparable?)


For some reason, I didn't consider what the Velodynes sold for. As the Legends were a replacement, I must have assumed that they were similar - and assumptions always get me in trouble.


----------



## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

MikeBiker said:


> For some reason, I didn't consider what the Velodynes sold for. As the Legends were a replacement, I must have assumed that they were similar - and assumptions always get me in trouble.


*SMACK!!!*. (jk!) 

To be fair, they're old Velodynes, and Velo has quite a price spread so they COULD be only comparable to $500 subs. Or it could be more like their $6k subs, so who knows.


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

That old velo MSRP'd around a grand. 

Side note setup a Pioneer VSX-1121 tonight (Amazon had them for 399 on black friday). The video processing is stellar!!!! Best I have seen yet!! Audio is solid but my denon 2311CI kills it! Much more detailed! It also has a much better sound field experience....all the surround modes are far and away better. HD on the AVR-2311CI is so close but I believe the VSX takes it by a hair! Sound wise...denon all the way! This baby pioneer will be going back...very feature rich!! Best bang for the buck I have seen yet! Setup is also amazing! It does do one thing very well on the sound department that is dialogue...I was very impressed. But it lacks the detail that the denon has for everything else. One example was the ceiling fan in iRobot was audible on the denon and was not on the pioneer...it is the subtle differences that make the denon a sound genius! But it has nowhere near the features. Pioneer has an app for the iPad that is actually quite awesome...I love it! It also has a superior setup using there Mic and MCACC. If you want stellar video Marvel makes the best video chip for HD receivers! ABT is a very close second...very close. 

Anyway back to sub testing.


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

Got the Rhythmik FV12 today. Hooked it up to go side by side against the velodynes (Gonna test the legend against as well)...guess what...the velodynes killed it! I cant even express how frustrated and disappointed I am! I was expecting this to be a better sub...and it wasnt. I watch the scene from Avatar where the mech is walking in front of Sully. With the Velodynes you could hear each step with decent authority. As he walks past him the mech comes to a stop...the rythmik did not produce any lows were as the velodynes did! I am talking about a 23 year old servo sub here!!! Shouldnt todays new improved technology surpass this dinosaur?? This is my initial listen..only an hour or so...and I watched that scene 7x with each sub, adjusted the levels to help the FV12. So many spoke sooo highly of this sub...it must have ruined my expectation which apparently are quite high. I am shocked!! I will say this the FV12 is tight...but the velodynes is tighter. It is responsive...but once again the velodynes is more responsive. The scene where the giant dump truck with arrows in the tires shock me, the room, throughout the entire scene with the velodynes...with the FV12...not so much! I am beginning to question the recommendations...for I dont believe many even have this sub. It isnt a bad sub and I still need more time but once again like the legend the range of bass the velodynes produces is far and away better...it lacks some of the ultra lows but it covers and its presents is far more obvious throughout the 25-100hz range...the other...no! More impact (punch), more presences, and better response over the 25-100hz range. I hear thinks (and feel) with the velodynes that the other cant seem to do...I am baffled to say the least!! A bit moo off as well! I cant believe how effortlessly the velodynes produces bass even at low volumes!! Yes listen preferences are subjective but I dont think anyone who would listen (and I welcome anyone) that they wouldnt come to the same conclusion...watching scenes several times you know where a sound is and where it is not...more over if one is missing from another. Even my wife and son said they could hear (and feel) the difference...such as when things were missing. I dont care if someone has a meter on it or scope the product...your ears dont lie! I need more testing but this is a little disappointing. To Rythmiks defense...brian did recommend the f12...but that is some bigger bucks...I am in a whole other arena of subs at that price!


----------



## Guest (Nov 30, 2011)

Can you take some pics of the velodyne driver? I'm surprised that it can out perform what you are throwing at it.

Maybe you need to DIY a sub, or just use what you have....


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

Sure I will take a ton of picks...have a few right now...just need the time to upload all this stuff in between. My family room is getting a little overwhelmed with Subs. The FV12 is HUGE compared to the other 2! You will see in the pictures.


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

Ok spoke to brian at Rythmik....did he have some insight!! I have renewed hope. I believe it is a cancellation issue. So I will make some changes tonight and let you guys know. So no conclusion should be drawn about any subs legend or FV12 until I get this squared away. But it is strange how the velodynes seems to really shine no matter what I do with calibration...but we will see.


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

My settings...also changed the AVR-2311CI around per brian's idea

Damping is set to: low
Freq: 14
Phase: 0
Volume/level: 2 o'clock
Xover on sub all the way up...highest hz. 

All these setting were per my phone call with Brian who was very helpful..After now 3 hours of additional testing and adjusting...the FV12 or the Legend cannot hang with my old velodynes. I turned the levels way up on them to get them to perform..it did help quite a bit but I was at the 3 o'clock level on the FV12 and had my receiver sub dbs much higher then my mains, center, or surround. I certainly helped but it still fell shy of the velodynes. The velodynes is effortless! And its response is better, precision, accuracy...very good. The FV12 is quite accurate, better then the legend. But the legend has the best output as well as the best extension. It isnt in the same league as the other for accuracy or response but it can really hit low. I felt it hit lower then the FV12! It isnt as graceful and can get a little muddy but it has balls! The FV12 can handle a ton of output! It is the least efficient of all. The Velodynes is the most by a mile!!! I can plug the velodynes in and have it at a 1/4 power (level) and the others cant put out that much output at 3/4 of theirs. Now there is a catch the velodynes cannot handle the ultra ultra lows at higher levels like the other 2 subs can...but I almost never listen to anything that loud so there s no point! At the moment the FV12 is in second and the legend 3rd. The FV12 is tighter, more responsive then the legend but it doesnt have the raw room filling output that the legend has! Nor the low end. The legend rattles everything that isnt bolted down. The other two arent as aggressive but they are cleaner and more accurate. I took several pictures and looking at the size of the FV12 it is ominous compared to them...and it is ugly!!! The Legend looks the nicest of all...it is also not quite as big.


----------



## Guest (Dec 1, 2011)

Interesting. Wish I could see REW sweeps of all the subs. I kinda wonder if the velodyne has a bit of a bass peak at some point too give it a large sound. I'm not trying to defend the other subs or anything, but I'd think the new ones could beat the old one just out of shear age. Speaker drivers wear out over time.

Still wanting to see some pics of the velodyne driver. Does it have a cast frame?


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

Generic said:


> Interesting. Wish I could see REW sweeps of all the subs. I kinda wonder if the velodyne has a bit of a bass peak at some point too give it a large sound. I'm not trying to defend the other subs or anything, but I'd think the new ones could beat the old one just out of shear age. Speaker drivers wear out over time.
> 
> Still wanting to see some pics of the velodyne driver. Does it have a cast frame?


It might but I would think if it did have peaks it would result in boomy or even muddy sound which it does not...now the others might actually have valleys in their band. The Velo is smooth and consistent throughout the entire band...where as the mid bass just flat out isnt there on the others...really at all.


----------



## gerchy (Aug 5, 2011)

Anyone interested in a budget sub might want to try Velodyne. The CHT-Q/DEQ-R series are quite a bargain.


----------



## Guest (Dec 2, 2011)

soapboxpreacher said:


> It might but I would think if it did have peaks it would result in boomy or even muddy sound which it does not...now the others might actually have valleys in their band. The Velo is smooth and consistent throughout the entire band...where as the mid bass just flat out isnt there on the others...really at all.


It might not be as obvious as you think. I built a cheap sub once using some clearance Dayton DVC subs and a spare Onkyo plate amp. I wanted to just run a sweep near the driver and it had a 15db gain near the 60hz range. It was all in the plate amp too. I took the same driver in a Goldwood box for my car (a tad on the small side even) and the peak wasn't their (testing with a spare Yamaha receiver). 

Overall, the sub didn't even sound boomy, but it sounded a bit different then my main Emo12. If I had been listening to the cheap sub for years and then went over to the Emo12, I might think something is missing. I'm not suggesting your sub has a 15db peak, but without any kind of measurements at all, it's just guessing as to why something sounds different.

How high are you crossing your subs to be missing mid bass? 80hz would be ideal, but IMO anything above 100hz is just asking too much for a large sub.


----------



## olddog (Dec 21, 2008)

I went the used market. Sunfire True Sub MKII 2400w active then passive speakers. Been very happy with it for music and HT-gets REAL LOW! Under 500.00 for sure!


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

Generic said:


> It might not be as obvious as you think. I built a cheap sub once using some clearance Dayton DVC subs and a spare Onkyo plate amp. I wanted to just run a sweep near the driver and it had a 15db gain near the 60hz range. It was all in the plate amp too. I took the same driver in a Goldwood box for my car (a tad on the small side even) and the peak wasn't their (testing with a spare Yamaha receiver).
> 
> Overall, the sub didn't even sound boomy, but it sounded a bit different then my main Emo12. If I had been listening to the cheap sub for years and then went over to the Emo12, I might think something is missing. I'm not suggesting your sub has a 15db peak, but without any kind of measurements at all, it's just guessing as to why something sounds different.
> 
> How high are you crossing your subs to be missing mid bass? 80hz would be ideal, but IMO anything above 100hz is just asking too much for a large sub.


100 is what I settled on but also tried 80 and that seemed to work well with fv12.


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

Ok had a break thru tonight, driving home from the weekend in wisconsin with the family I thought...why not give the FV12 some hell...and really dial it up. So got home early this even and popped in Star Wars Ep II. Open scene with the chrome ship flying from orbit into the plants and landing only to get blown up. This scene as many know is a great test for a sub. I dial the db up on the sub from -6.5db (Via the MultiEQ Calibration,,,and I dialed their setting up to -6.5 because they actually had the speaker level -8.5db) and put it to -2.0db. It seems high right...it seems like it would overpower the mids and highs. Also it seems so far out of wack with the other mains, and rears they are around -7.5db (main) and -8.0db that I was questioning it. It seems strange considering the sub is only a foot off from the right main location where as the -6.5 is relative to the -7.5 of the klipsch. Since the klipsch are ultra efficient and the Velodyne is as well this leaves the FV12 kinda of at a disadvantage when I swapped out the velodyne and recalibrated...not to mention I think the MultiEQ and the MCACC on the pioneer do a bad job. With my AVR-2311CI the rears needed to be dialed way back for they overwhelmed the front where you couldnt hear anything from the front...felt as if your sound stage was behind you...this was an auto-config fail in my book. So the auto calibration via MultiEQ isnt very accurate and didnt give the best results. Strange for the auto calibation on the velodyne was better and the bass without overwhelming the high in anyway was in complete balance with everything else. 

So back to my test after dialing speaker level up to -2.0db, the FV12 performed as I was hoping from day one!!! Very deep, low, powerful, tight, and impactful without overwhelming the highs from the highly efficient klipsch mains that might have made the auto call via audy. incorrect. The FV12 is very close to and equally balanced to the klipsch now...I am happy, smiling and relieved!! But this gets better...the open scene in ep II for Star Wars is one to test all subs with to see what they can take. At the end of that scene the chrome ship is blown up the explosion will bottom out the best or just flat out be missed. This scene before the FV12 (readjustment) was far less impactful then it was meant to be. This scene bottom out the velodyne easy!! It did not bottom out the FV12 at all...I cant tell you how cool this is!! For that scene has new meaning because now it can be heard the way it was intended. Other than that the FV12 is very similar to the Velodyne. The velodyne is still more detailed and elegant with the overall bass. But the FV12 is very close to being as tight and controlled I would say so close now that it is arguable to hear a difference. 

My current conclusion is the FV12 want to be dialed up...more then you think!!! Doing so will show you her true colors, what she was made for! Its an animal and want to be feed yet it can take everything you toss at her! This is one tough sub!! Do not trust (and I know better for I typically dont) your audy auto setups...they make mistakes like a weatherman. I almost gave up on this sub and now I have renewed faith in it!! This is a good day! It has far more output then my velo not to mention lower end yet still maintaining accuracy the legend cant touch! For 500...I am pleased! The velo as I said is more detailed, seems a little more full and effortless. It is a hair better at lower volume levels as well. But it cant handle much compared to the FV12 and it cant go as low as I have already said! Once again to day is a good day!


----------



## olddog (Dec 21, 2008)

Congratulations!! Thats the way to go. I found my sweet spot with my sub the same way. Then over a period of a couple of weeks tweeked it,s location a few inches one way and another and phase ect till nirvana! Electronics only go so far-after that it is your ears and brain. Old School


----------



## soapboxpreacher (Nov 19, 2011)

On a side note I stopped by ABT yesterday.

Listened to a ML Dynamo 700 at the store...not bad but doesnt have the ball or punch the FV12 or Velo. To be far it was in a big room and who know how this idiots have it setup. I checked the levels on the sub itself. I also tried it in both orientations. They had a SuperCube 2000 which was surprisingly able to fill that room very well. It didnt seem horribly loose. It was a hair boomy but it could fill the room well...level was 30%!!!!! I was shocked!!! And it is sooooo small. Nice sub it was $460 on sale! You could put that sub anywhere! Has anyone else listened to one? I am considering trying it because of the size.

For HT the Supercube isnt bad!!


----------

