# Toe in explained



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Hello,
Please forgive my ignorance of subject matter but I'm trying to set up my new mains, manual states to aim the tweeter at the listening spot, toe in between 5 and 10 degrees, could someone please explain how do you know what degree the speakers are at, for example how do you know if they are 10,20, 30 degrees, what is the reference point. A diagram would be very helpful or an explanation even I could understand. Thanks guys for your time.
Jeff:help:


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

It depends on the distance between the speakers compared to the distance to the listening position.
If you can supply these distances I will give you some rough guidelines.
Meanwhile have a quick look here:- http://www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm

Cheers,
Bill.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

You just need a little trig: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigonometry

Or, just trust your ears.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

You just need a little trig: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigonometry

Or, just trust your ears.


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

robbo266317 said:


> It depends on the distance between the speakers compared to the distance to the listening position.
> If you can supply these distances I will give you some rough guidelines.
> Meanwhile have a quick look here:- http://www.realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm
> 
> ...


Bill, my speakers are about 6'.5" apart, distance to listening position is about 8'.5", I have Ascends 340 LCR and manual says to form a T configuration starting at listening spot. a straight line from there to midway between mains measuring that straight line distance to midpoint which in my case is 8'.5" and take that distance of 8'.5" and multiply by 0.73 and this tells you the starting distance between mains and point tweeter at listening spot with a 5 to 10 degree toe in.
Jeff


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## MikeBiker (Jan 3, 2010)

When in your listening spot, the speakers tweeter should be at ear level and pointed directly toward the middle of your head. Don't worry about setting an angle, unless you are a trig geek.


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## SAC (Dec 3, 2009)

Trig? :heehee:

If you actually need to determine the precise angle you would be better off with a compass that displays degrees on an arc rather than performing some abstract calculation that will still leave you with numbers and not an actual position/orientation!

All they are referring to is that for left and right speakers, to orient them so that the plane of the baffle (the front panel) is perpendicular to the line of sight running from the listening position.

In other words, rather than the speaker baffle literally facing the back wall, that the speaker be aimed 'on axis' at you in the listening position.

Also, make sure that each speaker is located the same distance from the listening position.

And the precise angle that they need to be angled at cannot be specified, as the angle will vary with the listening distance and the distance of separation between the speakers. Thus their general suggestion.

Don't make this more difficult than it is!


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

needspeed52 said:


> Bill, my speakers are about 6'.5" apart, distance to listening position is about 8'.5", I have Ascends 340 LCR and manual says to form a T configuration starting at listening spot. a straight line from there to midway between mains measuring that straight line distance to midpoint which in my case is 8'.5" and take that distance of 8'.5" and multiply by 0.73 and this tells you the starting distance between mains and point tweeter at listening spot with a 5 to 10 degree toe in.
> Jeff


No problems Jeff.
I will do some calcs and post a pic in the morning (it's about 9:00 here in Oz)

Cheers,
Bill.


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

SAC said:


> Trig? :heehee:
> 
> If you actually need to determine the precise angle you would be better off with a compass that displays degrees on an arc rather than performing some abstract calculation that will still leave you with numbers and not an actual position/orientation!
> 
> ...


SAC, thanks for the no nonsense approach, I do have the speakers at the exact same distance L+R to the seated location, I also have them toed in with the aid of a laser pointer at about my shouders just outside the head, I've read so many suggested speaker placements where they recommend the mains be the same distance apart as the distance to listening position, I guess this is the equalateral triangle where all distances are the same, I tend to disagree with this, if my seating position is 8.5-9' the distance between speakers should be the same? I'm experimenting now with toe in and distance between speakers, I'm trying to get the widest stage with best imaging, am I headed in the right direction. When I read a manual and it says toe in speaker slightly directly towards listening spot, I find it hard to understand how you can slightly toe in the speaker and still have the tweeter firing at the listener. Thank you for the time.
Jeff


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

Hi Jeff, 
I think I missed the point of your question originally.
The reason we toe-in the speaker is because the tweeter is highly directional. You have probably seen polar graphs for tweeters showing their off axis response similar to this (From http://www.lenardaudio.com/education/05_speakers.html)









So when you Toe-in the speaker you are moving the lobe into the listening area. If the speakers were simply facing straight ahead you would miss a lot of the treble detail.

I hope this is what you were after.
Cheers,
Bill.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

So I guess, in order to simplify the whole thing, could we suppose to assume one could simply sit in their favoured listening seat, and point the tweeters directly at the listener? Also, if you need to cover a wider area, them simply toe the speakers out a touch so the tweeters direct line of fire doesnt touch in the main listening position, but instead are slightly wider apart to as to encompass a wider are while the firing 'lobes' still remaining coving the central listening seat.

Was that actually any simpler


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

Moonfly said:


> So I guess, in order to simplify the whole thing, could we suppose to assume one could simply sit in their favoured listening seat, and point the tweeters directly at the listener? Also, if you need to cover a wider area, them simply toe the speakers out a touch so the tweeters direct line of fire doesnt touch in the main listening position, but instead are slightly wider apart to as to encompass a wider are while the firing 'lobes' still remaining coving the central listening seat.
> 
> Was that actually any simpler


Most speaker manufacturers don't make the speakers to face directly at one listening position. You may find the highes a bit harsh if you did that. 
The only real way to find the best position is to try varying toe-ins until it sounds good. Then try more and see if it gets better or worse.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

robbo266317 said:


> Most speaker manufacturers don't make the speakers to face directly at one listening position. You may find the highes a bit harsh if you did that.
> The only real way to find the best position is to try varying toe-ins until it sounds good. Then try more and see if it gets better or worse.


Agreed. I tend to fire my speaker directly at me and then work from there. The XTZ speakers I own(ed) though have room tuning option including variable treble and bass filters, so I simply adjusted these to taste, this way I didnt have to compromise with speaker toe and couple fire the tweeters directly at me to ensure I got the maximum performance for me :bigsmile: I tend to run bigger more Hi-Fi orientated fronts rather than HT focused sats.


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## CdnTiger (Feb 16, 2007)

Sorry to make things more complicated, but... :innocent: In addition to toe in, one should also consider the speakers' distance from the adjacent walls. Is there a generally accepted minimum for the 340s?


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## MikeBiker (Jan 3, 2010)

CdnTiger said:


> Sorry to make things more complicated, but... :innocent: In addition to toe in, one should also consider the speakers' distance from the adjacent walls. Is there a generally accepted minimum for the 340s?


A couple of feet should be enough for a ported speaker like the 340. Each room is different, so you may want to play around with spacing and location to see what sounds best to you.

I just got a front three of 340SEs and they sound so much better than my old speakers. I do need to get a sub since my old one died. The 340s sound deep enough when I play my CDs, but the explosions on movies need more depth and loudness.


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