# My receiver isn't new enough to display "the new HD"?



## Bob in St. Louis (Oct 21, 2006)

Ok...stick with me here, this is a bit long. 

The "players" involved;
- Sony PS3 ($300)
- Harman Kardon AVR645 ($1600)
- Epson Home Cinema 8350 projector ($1000)


For video I had the my old PS3 "Fattie" (first gen PS3), I ran the HDMI cable to the receiver, and HDMI to the projector. Life was good. 
With the new Slim PS3 (2nd gen PS3), I can run HDMI directly to the projector, and things look great. However, if I involve the receiver, things go down hill.
Three things happen;

- On the PS3 XMB (menu screen), the menu text is jittery, like there's a constant slight earthquake happening.
- There's a random, intermittant white flash on the entire screen. Reminds me of lightning.
- The colors have "banding artifacts". Meaning that when there's a gradient, or shading, the smooth transition between the shades are now "outlined" by darker shades. I've seen this happen when you would do something like play a DVD on an old CRT tv through the yellow composite cable. Like this:

Here's an example.

(borrowed image):

















I did hook up my wife's PS3 Slim, and got identical results. So it's not the console.

By the way, I've tried several different combinations in the PS3 display menu for these settings:

- Cross Color Reduction Filter
- RGB Full Range
- Super-White
- Deep Color Output

Nothing makes a difference, not even a little bit, other than making the screen slightly lighter or darker. The jitter and shading issues are still present.

I've got three different HDMI cords (GE, Phillips, and AR). No difference. The AR is brand new.

Just for grins, I called Paystation support. Spent about 20 minutes running through the various resets, swapping cables, etc....
She came to the conclusion that my 6 year old receiver isn't capable of processing the "level" of HD that the 2nd gen PS3 is outputting.

Really. :sarcastic: 

Then why did the 1st gen 'Fattie' PS3 work just fine, but my Slim and my wifes Slim not work? I asked.
She said the Slim (2nd gen) is newer HD tehnology than the Fattie (1st gen) and my 6 year old receiver is too old of technology to understand "the new HD". 

Well....maybe if it was explained to me like I wasn't 6 years old, I'd take that as a viable answer.
Everything I'm talking about here is 1080p. Is there a "new" HD that my 6 year old H/K can't process?

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.
Bob


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

I have experienced similar "banding" effect, as well as some fluctuation in the brightness of the whites. The difference for me is I have a plasma display as opposed to a projector. I assumed it was limitations of my TV, but based on this I'm not sure. I'm afraid I don't have a solution for you, but I'm curious to follow the discussion.


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## Bob in St. Louis (Oct 21, 2006)

"Misery loves company"......Glad to have you onboard Peter. :rofl2:

I told my wife about the "answer" the Sony lady gave me about my equipment being obsolete, her reply was awesome.
_Then why is the only other video output from the PS3 the silly little yellow composite wire, if it's so "new and high tech"?_

It was a proud moment in my life.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Hi Bob, I had a look at the specifications of you HK receiver and it only has HDMI 1.1 inputs this means that your not going to be able to use the newer PS3 with it correctly as the PS3 is HDMI 1.3 and possibly 1.4 compliant. 
You have one of two options, get a newer receiver or send the HDMI directly to the projector and sen an optical audio connection from the PS3 to the receiver for the audio. The 645 does not decode TruHD or DTSMA anyhow so your not loosing anything by going that route.


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## Bob in St. Louis (Oct 21, 2006)

AAhh.... I wasn't thinking about the versions of HDMI, I was thinking there's only one type of 1080p.
So yea, she was correct. Mine is too old. :doh:

Well. I'm not happy about that. But it looks like it's time to check the finances. :sarcastic:

Tony. Thank you VERY much. At least I now know where I stand. 
Great info, much appreciated.

Bob

p.s. Peter....How about you?
Is your plasma an older unit? What version of HDMI does it have?


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

Bob in St. Louis said:


> Is your plasma an older unit? What version of HDMI does it have?


Mine is an LG 60PV250 purchased almost exactly a year ago (black Friday deal :spend. 

I'm checking the specs now to see if they call out a certain version of HDMI.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

HDMI 1.3 is still good with 1.4 but going down to 1.1 there were too many changes in the handshake and Thats very likely why your getting issues. Like i said you dont need to replace the receiver but then your also not getting the very best in the audio. 
On your PS3 check to make sure that you dong have any 3D output enabled this could be party why its not functioning right.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Peter Loeser said:


> Mine is an LG 60PV250 purchased almost exactly a year ago (black Friday deal :spend.
> 
> I'm checking the specs now to see if they call out a certain version of HDMI.


That LG would have no issues, It will be HDMI 1.3 unless its 3D capable then its 1.4
What receiver are you using?


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> That LG would have no issues, It will be HDMI 1.3 unless its 3D capable then its 1.4
> What receiver are you using?


The TV is not 3D capable, so it seems likely that it is HDMI 1.3. It is discontinued by LG now, and the specs on their site do not specify HDMI version.

As for receivers and sources - I started with a Marantz SR7005 and recently moved to separates with an Emotiva USP-1 as my processor. I noticed the banding effect in both cases. Sources include a home-built HTPC, a Samsung BD-D6500 and currently the OPPO BDP-103. I need to take a closer look at home tonight to see if there are specific instances where I notice it, and others where I don't. It hasn't bothered me enough to be super sensitive about it, so I will have to investigate. I have used multiple 3D capable sources with a 2D only display - I wonder if that has anything to do with it.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Does it do it with all sources, or just with Bluray? Try a different HDMI cable for starters.


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## Bob in St. Louis (Oct 21, 2006)

From the Oppo site: "Two HDMI v1.4a output ports" 
http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-103/

You could try running your source directly to the display, just to eliminate a few things....


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> Does it do it with all sources, or just with Bluray? Try a different HDMI cable for starters.





Bob in St. Louis said:


> From the Oppo site: "Two HDMI v1.4a output ports"
> http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-103/
> 
> You could try running your source directly to the display, just to eliminate a few things....


Something to work on this evening. Thanks for the tips guys.


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## Bob in St. Louis (Oct 21, 2006)

Peter Loeser said:


> Something to work on this evening.


Nothing like a few forum friends to help you spend you time and money. :rofl:


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

Bob in St. Louis said:


> Nothing like a few forum friends to help you spend you time and money. :rofl:


Seems like the fun hobbies are the expensive ones! :blink:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Just dont spend alot of money on expensive HDMI cables. its a known fact that there is no difference in the quality of the cable.


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## Bob in St. Louis (Oct 21, 2006)

Exactly.
Specifically, the "big name found in the chain stores" (not to name names.....).

GE and Philips each sell a steel braided, clear plastic coated (it looks "audiophile") HDMI cord for a VERY reasonable price. I've got each and am very happy with them. I've also got a 25' cable I bought from Oppo many years ago that was an insane $30 that I love. It's a big fat thick cable that runs to my projector.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Monoprice is another great place to get them dirt cheep


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> Monoprice is another great place to get them dirt cheep


I've had good results with HDMI cables (among lots of other things) from Monoprice.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

Just a quick follow-up to my issue. I only experience the "banding" effect on certain still images. I remember this happening with my HTPC (i.e. desktop wallpaper, etc.). It also happens on some of the menus on my OPPO Blu-ray player, but I'm not able to get it to occur during video playback (including DVD and Blu-ray).

Like I said, it never bothered me enough to pay close attention to it. It seems like a matter of still image resolution or software rendering of said images in some cases. Of interest, the OPPO lets me view photos stored on my network, and I did not notice the banding effect on any of those.


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## Bob in St. Louis (Oct 21, 2006)

Gotcha. Yea, if it's not bothering you, then you're in good shape.
Like you said, it can be seen in still images, but where I see it the most is in a scene where there's a sunrise, like a time lapse, and you can watch the banding "bloom" on the screen.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

Bob in St. Louis said:


> but where I see it the most is in a scene where there's a sunrise, like a time lapse, and you can watch the banding "bloom" on the screen.


Yes that's exactly what I was imagining too - and tried playing back those types of scenes the other night but did not notice and banding effects. I think this may have been something I noticed while running an HTPC in my setup, but never messed around with. It appears to be limited to static backgrounds on the UI menus in the case of my OPPO Blu-ray player.


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## Bob in St. Louis (Oct 21, 2006)

I tried to contact H/K tech support asking them if a firmware update would have the ability to change HDMI versions to a more recent ("higher") version. 
It's been a few days, and despite their advertised one day response time, it appears I'm not going to get one.

Anybody know if it's possible?

Bob


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

I could be wrong, but I think some of the added features for HDMI 1.4 require hardware updates.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Banding is almost always a lack of bit depth in the source, but can be a problem in displays or processors. It occurs because there is insufficient resolution of brightness and you get steps instead of a smooth ramp of brightness. It can also be introduced in scaling and compression processes.


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