# Upgrade to 2 Emotiva Ultra 12 sealed subs, also considering SVS, ED, Epik, Chase, Rythmik



## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

OK, looking for some suggestions/feedback.

Things are finally settling around the house, the bills are paid, the Home Theater is unpacked, and I’ve got the upgrade bug. I’ve got 2 projects on the plate:

*1) Projector Setup (Out of current budget/not enough time/less feasible)
2) New Dual Subs (easy to integrate, within budget)*

So, I’m on the verge of making #2 a reality. I’ve really enjoyed the Aperion Bravus 8, so I want to stick with sealed for low-profile design and tighter response. Given the large volume of the space with the ceilings and open walls, clean, tight output is essential. I’m fairly happy with the Aperion, but the space is just too much for this little guy.

*Budget: ~$1000*

*Most Likely Candidate:*
Emotiva Ultra 12 ($798 shipped)
Based on the glowing Audioholics review, this seems like a safe bet.

*Other Candidates:*
SVS SB12-NSD ($1323.80)
ED A5s-300 ($1100)
Epik Dual Legend ($1043)
Chase Sub 10.2 ($800 before shipping)
Rythmik F12G ($1676)

I’ve been rolling around DIY, but I have to be honest with myself that my project list is as long as my arm, and if I DIY, my time cost will be so great that it will be a year before the project is finished.

*Current Setup:*
Onkyo 706
JBL S310ii (LR), S38ii (C), S26ii (SS)
Single Aperion Bravus 8 (sub), was a dual setup, but a faulty amp knocked me down to a single.

*Room:*
8’ Listening Position
Approx 13x14’
High, sloped ceilings (10-12’)
Open at back to kitchen and side to hallway, front room.

 

*So, thoughts? Am I asking too much of a pair of $400 subs in this space? Should I wait a year and save up for one of the more expensive candidates? Anyone heard rumors of good sales coming down the pipe?*


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

You might want to the SVSound's SB-12 NSD's to your subs list. They are amazingly articulate. Have fun. Dennis


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Yep, they are at the top of my "Other Candidates List" above, but at $500 more than the Emotivas, are a tougher pill to swallow.


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2011)

I have a Emo sub 12 and really enjoy it. I can't compare it to the more expensive counter parts, but it does sound very nice.

Something in my plate amp actually broke after about 6 months of ownership, but Emo quickly replaced it with about a week turn around.

Just for the warranty and customer support, I'd choose the Emo. The lowest price point doesn't hurt either.

Without knowing the sensitivity of the sub drivers, it's going to be hard to know if they will fill your space, but you would have a 30 day home trial. I can't imagine two of them not filling that space. I'm having trouble finding one of the independent test on them, but I'm pretty sure one was able to reach 111db. I've measured bass hits at 98db on mine without any audible distortion. Still felt like it had more in it, but my ears didn't.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Generic said:


> I'm having trouble finding one of the independent test on them, but I'm pretty sure one was able to reach 111db.


114db at 60hz: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/ultra-12/ultra-12-measurements

I rarely listen at reference, usually 6-10db down, so max output is not a huge factor. I would like extension down to 20hz of course(who wouldn't), but would be happy enough with 25 as that would take care of most of the music I listen to, and provide enough movie realism for my tastes.

Reconsidering the Epik Legends. At $1043 shipped, the Epik is still within my budget, and I'm willing to spend the extra $$ if the numbers say it makes sense. I'm certainly thinking about it


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## HuskerOmaha (Jan 19, 2011)

I just checked the Chase website for pricing, thought the 10.2 listed price looked high.

http://www.chasehometheater.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=76&category_id=29&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=112

Since they are moving to a 12" design, you could get 2-10.2 subs (4 drivers) for $400/ea....I'm assuming that with shipping that would be <$1000.

I have their 18.T package and have been happy thus far. 

Good luck with your search!


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Eugovector - the Emotivas are decent subs, but don't belong in this group IMO, they just won't be keep up SPL or extension wise. The Epik Empire doesn't reach much below 25 Hz, I don't know what that spells out for the Legend, possibly 30 Hz like the Emo?

The other subs are great candidates. The SVS and eD lean towards high output for home theater, the Chase and Rythmik are the more musical of the bunch. Consider the CS-10.2 as B-stock, the amp was located at the top, but CHT decided to go with another manufacturer, sealing the hole at the top and rear mounting the new amp. This is the reason for the price drop. I think that duals were priced at $750 + shipping at one time. Wouldn't hurt to ask them.

You mentioned $1000 as the budget, but have gone well over with some of the choices. In light of that, I highly recommend considering the Chase CS-18.T Series 2 or SS-18.T. I am a 2 channel guy and love how they handle music. Movies will raise eyebrows, too. Older Series 2 is B-stock, priced $100 less than the new SS cabinets and are shipping with a free pair of Danny Ritchie designed WAF-1 speakers.

Good call on choosing doubles of whatever you decide on, your living space lends itself well to sealed doubles.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Another forum keeps trying to steer me towards the Outlaw LFM-1 EX at $1104 per pair. Am I wrong not to consider this and other ported subs considering I'm looking for the most accurate bass I can get even if it means giving up some low-end extension?

I got out the tape measure, and while it wouldn't be perfect, I can make the size work at the front of the room. The ONLY locations that will work functionally and aesthetically are the front 1/3 points and the front corners. Believe me, if I had less of an aversion to spiders, small spaces, and cutting big holes in my house, I'd be looking at a double sealed or IB setup in the crawlspace.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

If a vented subwoofer is appropriately damped and doesn't have vent compression issues, it will be tight and accurate. 


There might be some group delay if you listen to notes with fundamentals near the vent region, but it's better to hear a very slightly late fundamental than to be hearing no fundamental at all (which is often the case with smaller sealed subs which roll off quickly below 35-40hz).

One issue of vented vs sealed is room gain. A vented sub can have too much deep bass after the room response is factored in and sound unbalanced - the "bloated" vented sound. A sealed sub in the same room will have less room gain because it has much less deep output. So you need to be willing to use equalization, because every room is different. Amplitude response is the NUMBER ONE contributing factor into subwoofer "tightness" so you NEED to be willing to equalize flat. After that it's just a matter of having plenty of usable output and extension with low distortion. One advantage of vented is that it normally asks less in terms of excursion out of the driver. 

SO my point is, since you're going with multiple subs, that's what matters. Don't be too concerned with sealed vs ported. Getting 20hz (or lower) with sealed is a very expensive venture, especially if you're not DIYing. 

The outlaws do seem like a good deal, although you're basically limited to 25hz as I would expect a very sharp rolloff below that point.

My recommendation would be a pair of Rythmik FV12s. These can be set to a 14hz extension which will give you a very low group delay with better deep output than a sealed sub. You still won't likely get meaningful output below 20hz with this extension mode but it will likely be the best choice above 20hz (ironically enough). With room gain you should be close to flat in-room, otherwise you can try out the 20hz and 28hz settings and see what you like. I definitely see it as a better choice than the sealed F12, but that's just me.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Okay, after reading up as much as possible on the Rythmik FV12, I think you've convinced me. The footprint works, and they even discount for multiple subs purchased ($499 plus shipping). I'll have to save up for one more month to make the difference in price, but I'd been intrigued by servo subs for a while, so this will be a great opportunity to give it a go.

I may drop them an email to see if they can offer any accommodation for an HTS staff member.

Now, to see what it would take to get the projector setup going (mostly another $2k).

Thanks for your help everyone.


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## antheo (Jun 18, 2011)

i am hesitating betweem the emotiva and the rythmic. Which way did you go? would you mind sharing your experience?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

In the end, I was rightly steered by folks on the forums towards a ported sub. My room size and budget meant that to be satisfied with the extension on output of my sub, it would need some oomph, and I could only afford that if I went ported.

Of course, that means I need to compromise the aesthetics piece, which is a continuing conversation.

Right now, I'm leaning towards 2 Rythmik FV-12, but not only do I need to save a little more, but the rest of the household would only be okay with more and bigger boxes up front if we are able to move the couch back 3 feet, which means a bigger screen. So, we've decided to explore a larger overall upgrade which is 2 new subs and a projection setup (but that's a topic for another thread).

So, my budget has more than double, and the timeline pushed out several months to find out if the wiring if feasible, and the money will roll in. I'm having someone come over next week to give me some pointers on AV and power wiring, and the money will just take time as I scrimp and save.

If I had a smaller, sealed room, I would have gone with the Emotiva's in a heartbeat, especially at the current price on sale. But for my larger room, prety much everyone commented what I already knew in my heart...without a more serious subwoofer, I'd be itching for an upgrade again soon.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I have dual Emo 12" subs placed against the front wall of a 16' x 22' room. Anyone that says these things dont do the deed, has not heard them. They literally shake my chair with out breaking a sweat. They look good, they are relatively light and easy to move about. I watched an old stand by for checking bass, War of the Worlds and my jaw dropped from the power and tunefulness present in the room. 
This can also be said for the 4th installment of the die hard series. No more are there just booms and shakes, those booms now have a distinct and omni present tune to them when there is a tune to be had. 
These things are killer for $798.00 delivered. I doubt you will find a better deal anywhere short of installing an IB into your room. Yes I did try other subs and they were nice, but these babies go deep and then go away. No overhang, no intrusion in upper levels, just Sub Woofer duties, exactly what they were made for.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

eugovector - I think you would be surprised what can be achieved in your room with sealed subs. The only advantage ported will give you is more output at and around the port tuning frequency. There are disadvantages, too. 

Your room(s) doesn't look so big that properly EQ'ed sealed subs couldn't overcome it. Given enough power, sealed will dig deeper than ported and won't have phase issues. It would take dual 15" drivers, at least, in that space, though.

That said, I'm sure dual ported Rythmiks will do a fine job. If you are limited to 12" drivers, ported is probably the best way to go in your situation. What does Rythmik say about the matter, have you discussed it with them?


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

antheo said:


> i am hesitating betweem the emotiva and the rythmic. Which way did you go? would you mind sharing your experience?


Welcome to HTS, antheo!


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

tesseract said:


> eugovector - I think you would be surprised what can be achieved in your room with sealed subs. The only advantage ported will give you is more output at and around the port tuning frequency. There are disadvantages, too.
> 
> Your room(s) doesn't look so big that properly EQ'ed sealed subs couldn't overcome it. Given enough power, sealed will dig deeper than ported and won't have phase issues. It would take dual 15" drivers, at least, in that space, though.
> 
> That said, I'm sure dual ported Rythmiks will do a fine job. If you are limited to 12" drivers, ported is probably the best way to go in your situation. What does Rythmik say about the matter, have you discussed it with them?


I'm going to email them pretty soon, once I have money in hand to make a purchase. Don't want to bother them to much before I can put cash on the barrel-head.


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

Sorry to glom onto your thread, but I'm very interested to hear how your choices pan out and the thoughts going into them. I have a similarly-large room, and am looking to upgrade my sub as well... except I'm coming from a highly mediocre 10" Polk.

I actually placed an order for an Emotiva... just one for now, hoping to add a second later as funds permit. I'll admit to having qualms, however, about whether another option would have been better. I _really_ wanted an SVS SB12-NSD (and eventually a pair!), but, like you, the extra cost was a bitter pill to swallow. Add in the fact that they're not even shipping them at the moment, and the less expensive options had an irresistible edge.

I've read nice things about Rythmik, but frankly, (a) I don't know too much about them, compared to others, and (b) the only affordable option is just plain too crazy tall to work in my installation. I need to keep it under 19" tall to fit under the end table where it will go. The Epik Legends were incredibly tempting... but I don't know as much about them, and honestly, I think the lack of any sort of a nice finish is an issue. At least the new finish on the Emos is a satin lacquer and not an ugly black laminate. But... should I have gone with the Epik? Price is close, although shipping is not free. Has anyone heard both that can compare them? And finally, moowee, my room is a bit bigger than the OPs, but I'm only going with one to start. I love the idea of dual subs, but I can't help but think (hope? pray?) that I'm going to see a pretty huge difference as it is, coming from my Polk to even the Emo 12, the least of the lot under consideration.

This is for 95%+ HT, and a little music on occasion. At at the moment, my budget truly is limited... too many other recent splurges! The $100 difference between the Emo and the Epik actually gave me pause, and the extra bump to the SVS really took it out of the running. (and yet...)

The room (click for bigger):

 

I've already purchased the Emo, which shipped Monday and so should be here soon (yay!) but I suppose I can still return it (and eat some shipping fees) if there is a compelling reason to go another way.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

This is an interesting thread. I guess everyone looks for something personal in all parts of their audio video system. Having experimented with many speakers, locations, set ups and related components, it is pretty clear that you can do a good deal with a small amount of money. When it comes to subs this is less true unless you are dealing with the online sellers. Subs made in China designed as sell through items with no middle man or B&M store can get the job done, with high quality for a very reasonable price. They all have money back warranties so one could hardly go wrong with any purchase. I went with the Emos because I have some of their electronics and have been very impressed, so on a lark I ordered the twin 12's. 
I really do not know what everyone wants from their subs, but these will go as deep and loud as a "Normal" home theater owner would ever want or need. Unlike full range speakers or speaker monitors, there is a sound associated with those that must please ones sensibilities over a wide range of Hz. The sub on the other hand must play loud, low and be tuneful. IMO of course. How low and how loud will be owner dependent. But if, as in my case, one wants the full human hearing spectrum covered bottom up, these will do fine. If one wants to move walls, maybe a couple dozen Altec Lansing Voice of the Theaters would be more to your liking. The sound effects reproduced by subs are usually not real. So there is obviously an issue with trying to be accurate in an inaccurate world. A handgun sound cannot be reproduced in the home and in reality does not need a subwoofer to do it. Even a car accident does not have significant low frequency information in the....ahem...real world. I am happy, much better than the big name boxes and will keep there for a very long time.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Kalini,

Please update us with your impressions of a single Emotiva Ultra 12 in that room. Our rooms are actually pretty similar in size once you factor in my kitchen.


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

eugovector said:


> Kalini,
> 
> Please update us with your impressions of a single Emotiva Ultra 12 in that room. Our rooms are actually pretty similar in size once you factor in my kitchen.


Absolutely! I figured as much, looking over your floorplan... that's one reason I jumped in, since it looks like we're in similar positions. That said, you're coming from a nice sub and I'm coming from a very different, not nearly as nice one. (10" ported sub, amp rated at 100w rms/200w peak...by Polk)

The Emo should be delivered on Friday. I'm having a party that night, so if it arrives on time, _hopefully_ I'll have time after work to get it installed, re-run Audyssey and get a feeling for how it does with music by comparison to my Polk. (bass-heavy dance and techno/trance stuff, for this party) Otherwise it'll be sometime over the weekend before I can install it and test it out with some movies.

I'll need to figure out a good film for testing and comparison... perhaps my Tron Legacy bluray will give the system the workout it needs... any other suggestions? There's probably a thread on this somewhere here, I know there is one over on AVS somewhere...

I live in a condo (at the moment... we're shopping for a house, but it's a rough market), so I can't REALLY let it fly, but hope to get some good impressions nonetheless.

-Kalani


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

It's actually a great market for buying a house, at least where I'm at, but a bad market for selling a condo.

As for tests, War of the Worlds is a get sample for test the extension and output of a sub, the Darla Boat Thump scene from Finding Nemo, or Black Hawk Down. But as I noted, I'm more interested in tight, accurate bass for music, so I almost always test with CDs with good, solid, organic low frequency content (Aphex Twin, Feist, Soul Coughing).


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

eugovector said:


> It's actually a great market for buying a house, at least where I'm at, but a bad market for selling a condo.
> 
> As for tests, War of the Worlds is a get sample for test the extension and output of a sub, the Darla Boat Thump scene from Finding Nemo, or Black Hawk Down. But as I noted, I'm more interested in tight, accurate bass for music, so I almost always test with CDs with good, solid, organic low frequency content (Aphex Twin, Feist, Soul Coughing).


Yeah, we're not going to sell the condo yet, or we'd take a bath. Planning to renting it until the market gets better. Tough to find a house that meets my size/location/price/condition requirements in this market... a lot of the good candidates in this area are short sales that investment companies swoop in on with cash offers and blow anyone else out. We've seen a few that are close, but not quite, and had one or two where we were just plain outbid. It'll happen, we just have to be patient.

Hmm... I have WoW on my AppleTV (AC3 sound, sourced from DVD), and the Finding Nemo DVD. No BHD. Lots of other options, though. I have 600+ DVDs and nearly 30 BRs, I'd guess.

I'll have to dig out some CDs to test with... I only listen to MP3s since I converted my collection. (mostly ripped at 192kbps)

One of these days I'll have to pick up a BR burner and burn that demo BR the guy on AVS made.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

One Word: Inception soundtrack :innocent: :hsd:


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

GranteedEV said:


> One Word: Inception soundtrack :innocent: :hsd:


LOL

I do have the Inception bluray, so that should help.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

KalaniP said:


> LOL
> 
> I do have the Inception bluray, so that should help.


Based on my ear, Inception has a lot of of 20hz-30hz bass content that might not be reproduced by the emotiva which starts to roll off sharply around 40hz.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

tron is the best, but Die Hard Live Free is a close second.


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

So, I'm interested in finding out what you all decided to get. I have an SVS PB10-NSD but am thinking I should have got the Epik Legend. I have a smallish room and am (now) mostly interested in music performance. I think the SVS sounds boomy, chuffy sometimes. (inception) And I don't get much of a crisp kick drum sound I want.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Well, I thought I was set on the Rythmik FV12 pair, but Brian really encouraged me to go with the FV15. I don't have the budget for a pair, some I'm waiting a bit/saving up.

Also considering the new SVS PB-12NSD in a pair for some $$ savings, but am still pretty interested in trying out servo subs since my main interest is accuracy, not SPL.

With your SVS, have you tried changing the sub location and seeing how that affects the "boom"?

You might also wait to see the reviews on the new Emotiva x-ref subs. Rumor has it, despite some wording on Emotiva's site, this uses the same driver as the Sub12, but with a lot more power behind it and a digital EQ. After using the Aperion, I really can't see a need for the aggravation that accompanies a digital setup vs. just twisting some knobs, but I guess you set it and forget it, so it's only one afternoon of aggravation.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

The driver in the Emotiva Ref-X 12 is not the same driver found in the Ultra Sub 12. Straight from Dan Laufman himself.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Good to know. There was some definite confusion on Emotiva's own forum.

Post in question: http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/...st&board=subwoofeers&thread=19485&post=310890

_"I just confirmed on phone with Emo. The Xref. 12 is the same driver as the Ultra 12. Is that good or bad? Same size, same driver, good or bad? "_

And Big Dan's Response: http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/...st&board=subwoofeers&thread=19485&post=312106

_"The Xref 12 s NOT the same driver!! The Xref 12 is a brand new drive unit with a high power 3" voice coil assembly, etc, etc.

Sorry for any confusion!" _


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

I am considering moving my sub again. I originally had it in between the left and center speakers. Then I moved it to the other side of the left speaker closer to the corner. That seemed to give more bass in the lower 20's range. Part of my problem may be the lack of houseplants in the summer. The room is much more sparse now.  Maybe this link will work??? https://picasaweb.google.com/natescriven/Mar212011#5586677604101260354


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Unfortunately, the acoustical properties of house plants aren't much. I'd play around with placement and take some measurements with REW if you can to see the difference.


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

I just put the sub back where it was. between the left and center. Still sounds boomy and imprecise to me. I adjusted the crossover up to 80hrtz and it sounded worse. 60hrtz isn't bad. Since I don't have a dedicated home theater room I'm a little limited in moving stuff around. I listened to Diana Krall last night (softly)with some walking bass lines and it sounded pretty good. Right now, have Radiohead OK Computer on and just doesn't sound crisp. I think the SVS is a good sub but better suited for movies than music.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Did you also adjust the sub level using an SPL meter of an auto-calibration feature included with your AVR?


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

Yes, I used Audyssey XT on Denon 991. Then I boosted the db's by 5. Changed speakers to small. Set crossover to 60 for fronts.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Boosted all levels by 5db or just certain speakers?


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

just the sub.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Well, a 5th boost is about twice as loud as reference, so I say that would be the cause of some of the boominess. Have you tried listening for a while with the sub at 80hz crossover and at spec's levels, i.e. the same as the rest of your speakers?


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

I tried some different volumes and placements last night. Right in the corner was really bad. Very boomy. Where I have it seems to be pretty good. Closer to the center of the room sounded very similar only a little less really deep bass. 
I stuffed some pillows and blankets in the nearest corner. Not much difference if any. 
Having the sub for 9 months w/ two different setups has given me a pretty good handle on the way it 'sounds'. 
It hits all of the notes and does so cleanly but never sounds crisp or well defined. 
Chad from Epik said some of his customers have compared both SVS and Epik. He says: "They preferred the musicality and the tightness that naturally comes with the sealed design of the Legend. Sealed subs by both definition and design have an advantage when it comes to transient response."
My new speakers, Ascend Sierra-1's sound fantastic to me. I really could tell a huge improvement over my old Paradigms. I play violin and the new speakers reproduce the sound much more accurately. And voices sound like real people. So, especially as of late, I want a system that is as tight, accurate and musical as possible. I'm not totally unhappy with the SVS. It sounds good on electronic bass such as Beck and Bjork. It's fine for most movies. ('How to train your dragon' sounded awesome) If I can't sell it for close to what I paid than I'll be keeping it awhile. My analogy for it would be the SVS is like a sledgehammer where I really want something more precise. 
I really appreciate all of your help! You're probably right about 5db being too much sub boost. I thought I had read somewhere that one person boosted 10db because of preference. But I didn't think about that being twice as loud.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

You're probably getting some modal Ringing as well: that is, at certain frequencies supported by your room dimensions, reflected waves combine to not only increase the level of certain frequencies, but also lengthen their decay. This behavior will be true regardless of what sub you use. The cure, short of changing your room dimensions, is a combination of sub placement and acoustic treatment. As you are experiencing some improvement with placement one, I'd say this is the case. Dual subs could also help give you a flatter response. 

I just don't want you to think that A new sub, regardless of the design, will be a magic bullet. Fact is, if you find a placement that gives you the max output and frequency extension you are looking for, you may be better served with bass traps.


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

Those are really good suggestions. Of course sticking with the sub I have is the most practical solution. As far as extension, not real thrilled with movies where there is under 20hertz info. Instead of just bass I can definitely hear port chuffing. Regarding output, I would like more output in the mid bass region. I could be wrong but I'm really convinced that a sealed sub would work with my (smallish) room better and not against it like a ported sub. If you look at SVS's freq chart for PB10 it shows it going flat to 22 or 23 hertz. With ANY room gain, I think it's going to be somewhat bloated. Just my thoughts... But anyways, I really appreciate all of your time. Looking forward to hearing about your new subs!


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

natescriven said:


> Those are really good suggestions. Of course sticking with the sub I have is the most practical solution. As far as extension, not real thrilled with movies where there is under 20hertz info. Instead of just bass I can definitely hear port chuffing. Regarding output, I would like more output in the mid bass region. I could be wrong but I'm really convinced that a sealed sub would work with my (smallish) room better and not against it like a ported sub. If you look at SVS's freq chart for PB10 it shows it going flat to 22 or 23 hertz. With ANY room gain, I think it's going to be somewhat bloated. Just my thoughts... But anyways, I really appreciate all of your time. Looking forward to hearing about your new subs!


Is there a reason why you originally went with the PB10 instead of the SB10?


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

I just basically went with SVS's website that claimed if you could 'afford' the greater footprint of the PB10, that it was the 'better' sub. I also read some reviews that claimed it had lower distortion compared to the SB12. Also, I was leaning towards the most output possible for a really good home theater experience. I assumed that tight, crisp sound was automatic. I know I expected too much. And I did kinda second guess myself afterwards.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

In situations like yours, I think it's hopeless to go around swapping subs until you find one you like. Just a waste of money. Port chuffing is of course undesirable, but I think the problem extends beyond that.

The best approach is always

1) *Measure* what's going on in your room. See if you have any wideband suckouts or excess room gain, and smooth integration to your main. Many rooms, simply do not have gain. Other rooms have modes which people confuse for gain. Find out if your problem, is a preference for a high Q "punchy" sound or an accurate, "dry" sound. Rather than taking a gamble on another sub that might dissapoint you, you need to know for sure what's wrong with this one.


2) If your sub has a multiple tuning modes, take advantage of that. Low tunings (one port stuffed one open) lower the Q which is a good mix with rooms that do have gain, and it can improve transient response as the port tuning is below audibility. Higher tunings (all ports open) will maximize output. Sometimes there's two pieces of foam to stuff both vents and make a low Q sealed box.

3) Pick up a miniDSP and do some* manual EQ*ing and integrate multiple subs properly.

4) If your mains are having integration issues, mess with their placement as much as you can. Your seating placement can make a big difference too. A foot or two more forward from a wall, for example. The measurements can help you optimize it. Thick (IE 12" Rigid Fibreglass) bass traps, especially in as many corners as possible, can make a big difference. The *blend between sub and mains*, is often a big, unaware misstep for people. 

2) *Budget for properly setup multiples, whatever you decide on*. Two, and preferably 3. they actually don't need to be equally capable, due to placement, so you can get one 15 to maximize output (and probably corner loaded), and two small 12s to clean up the response in the room, which will likely be closer to you. You might be able to *"reuse" the 10 you have now as a third* (low level) nearfield fill *sub*. I recommend DIYing with a nice 15" driver for best results. Mate it to your current PB10. Level matching must be done manually with the miniDSP. The smallest subs are generally going to be closest to you and setup for the lowest power levels - often barely perceivable except to fill in room response.

Proper setup is key. You can't just plug and play, if you want the best out of subs. You said earlier that corners are a bad placement. Indeed, they are if you've only got one sub. But when you've got spacial averaging and good integration with other subs, and some small equalization, it's often the opposite. same with room gain. Equalized down, it's just extra headroom.

Same with "midbass output". Maybe your sub is capable of 110db midbass, and you only listen at 90db, but your problem isn't the output itself, but the shape of the curve.

It all starts, with some measurement equipment, which you can get for under $150 total, give or take.

My advice is to* shoot for flat in-room response*, low Q, low distortion. It takes time to get used to, but it's the only "truly accurate bass" and once you're used to it, you really don't want to go back to "what we think is bass based on the bass we think we've experienced". *Don't run your sub hot* if your goal is accurate bass. People only run sub hots, because they think that subs are supposed to be hot.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Okay, so the NEW PB-12NSD is up on the SVS site and I have an order in for 1. Had some house repairs that need to happen, and being the fiscal conservative that I am, I opted to add the 2nd sub at a later date when the budget was a little more solid. I'm still excited to see what a single sub can do.

The Rythmik FV15 pair would have been my ideal choice, but I'm afraid that will be out of the budget, and I'm a little hung up on the dual subs considering that we often have multiple viewers. Brian didn't seem excited about the FV12 pair for my room. Wish I had the money for dual FV15.


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

I was looking at that too. I think it's interesting that their new drivers feature less 'overhang'. I think that was my main complaint with the PB10-NSD. I say 'was' because I just sold it on Ebay. Ships out today. Epik Legend arrives tomorrow. Looking forward to comparing a sealed, more 'musical' sub in my room. I'll let you know what I think


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Too bad you don't live in Oregon; we could do a shootout.


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

eugovector said:


> Okay, so the NEW PB-12NSD is up on the SVS site and I have an order in for 1. Had some house repairs that need to happen, and being the fiscal conservative that I am, I opted to add the 2nd sub at a later date when the budget was a little more solid. I'm still excited to see what a single sub can do.
> 
> The Rythmik FV15 pair would have been my ideal choice, but I'm afraid that will be out of the budget, and I'm a little hung up on the dual subs considering that we often have multiple viewers. Brian didn't seem excited about the FV12 pair for my room. Wish I had the money for dual FV15.


I look forward to your review. A shame we can't compare to the Emotiva, too. I'm curious why you opted for the PB-12 instead of the SB-12... if you're looking for accuracy and musicality, wouldn't a sealed box deliver that better?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Big room meant more output was needed. I rolled it around, did my research, and was still on the fence. So, I talked with SVS (and HSU, Rythmik) and this was the response from Jack:

Hi Marshall,

Thanks for your note!

First, I don't have to tell you that there’s no shortage of talk on the internet regarding sealed vs. ported and the suitability of each for music and HT. We don’t think the definition of “accuracy” changes depending on what you’re listening to. What goes in should come out. We design our subwoofers for a flat frequency response, deep extension, low distortion (particularly at the deepest frequencies), a uniform/linear power response at all drive levels, and plenty of output capability for uncompressed system dynamics. If a subwoofer excels at all of these things, then it will perform well and sound accurate on any source material - movies and music. Bottom line - the more a subwoofer behaves like a perfect transducer, the better it will sound. 

We call it The Big Five – flat, deep, clean, linear, and loud. Any deviations from the Big Five such as high distortion, excessive output compression, a non-linear frequency response, and poor output uniformity are subjectively perceived by the listener as shortcomings in performance. So it’s best to look at how the subwoofer performs, not whether it is sealed or vented - because accuracy is dictated by how well the subwoofer handles the Big Five, not by its acoustic alignment. In that sense, all else equal a great ported sub will be far more "accurate" in a big room like yours as it will deliver more of the dynamic deep bass, replicating more closely what's actually on a disc, while being just as linear through the mid-bass "music" regions.

I also like dual subs and lean that way whenever possible. Dual subwoofers have the benefit of a denser and more complex modal response in the room, with overlapping standing waves and a greater potential for a flatter frequency response at the listening position. There are cases where there is a combination of subwoofer placement, listening position, and room dimensions which provide a flat FR (which has more to do with perceived "speed" and "musicality" than any other factor) at the listening position from a single subwoofer, but it's pretty rare and properly placed duals up those odds significantly. 

Jack Gilvey
Director – Customer Service
SVSound​


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

Interesting response, thanks!


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

So I've spent a few days with the Epik Legend. I'm really liking it even though I know I would like two even more. I'm losing a little bit of spl in the 20's going from the SVS. I'm closer to the corner now to compensate somewhat. The SVS and Epik sub sound quite different. The Epik is tighter and more musical. I'm noticing the tone of the bass notes more. And no overhang.  Listening to Progressive, Jazz, Classical. When it goes really deep the Epik does better but not at high levels. And the bass sounds like it comes from the center sound stage rather than where the sub is sitting. Nothing surprising, pretty much what I expected. Still don't have much 'punch' but haven't turned it up and my situation limits what I can do as far as sound deadening. And my room is open on one side. I might try a curtain and see if that helps.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

eugovector said:


> Big room meant more output was needed. I rolled it around, did my research, and was still on the fence. So, I talked with SVS (and HSU, Rythmik) and this was the response from Jack:
> 
> Hi Marshall,
> 
> ...


That's what I was telling you :innocent: :whistling:


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Ended up going with the SVS, initial impressions here: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/svsound/50176-pb12-nsd-2011-version-way-review-video.html


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