# Advice on my first pre / pro?



## iheartaudio (May 11, 2014)

Hello, all!

First off, thanks for looking.
I think it's time to step up my theater game a bit.
I'm looking to invest in a good pre / pro. 
I feel like the yamaha is not the best foundation for a good system, and am looking to upgrade.

I'm currently running a Yamaha RX-v477(?) receiver, with an Adcom GFA-5006 powering my front stage (all Paradigm speakers), an EP2000 powering my dual 15" subs, and a little Crown D-75a powering my rears. Only running 5.2, and I have no immediate plans to go to 7.2, and neither atmos nor the newer HDMI (hdcp 2.2) things matter to me. I use a computer as my source, and output 5.1 via optical cable, so Dolby Digital is a requirement. I will be rackmounting it, so not having to buy brackets is a slight bonus.

My strong preference would be unit with the ability to control dual subs, with some room correction. Since I am running the Behringer EP amp for the subs, an XLR balanced out is really nice, as I can eliminate the Art CleanBox Pro I am running to increase the output voltage on the line level. Aside from that, Dolby Digital is my only requirement, but I want to get the best unit for the money.

Here's what I am looking at:
-Marantz AV7701. It has the dual sub output (in balanced XLR), and audyssey, and plenty of other bells and whistles - $800 new from A4L, $500-700 used via eBay
-Krell ShowCase 7.1 - XLR outputs, but only a single sub out. But, It's a Krell.... $500-700 used on eBay
-Anthem Statement D1. XLR outputs, but I don't know the breand, and don't know if they are any good $600-800 eBay
-Krell HTS - XLR outs, and it was a $5k flagship model, 5-8 years ago. $700 on ebay.
-Emotiva UMC-1 - cheap on ebay (200-300), XLR sub only, but I understand this unit has had some issues?
-Integra DHC-9.9 - Don't know much about them, personally, but I know they are well regarded as Onkyo's higher end brand. $500 on ebay
-Parasound C2 - $625 ebay.
-NAD Master Series M15 - $200-500 ebay.

My head is swimming...... Any help is appreciated!


My preference would be for great audio with fewer bells and whistles. I don't need any streaming services, and don't use my receiver to handle video at this point. I just have my computer as the source for my theater, and a DVI - HDMI to the TV (monitor).

Anything you like here, anything to avoid?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I'll be honest with you, non of those pre pros you listed will improve over what you currently have. The misconception that using balanced outputs gives "better sound" is faulse. Where you will notice a difference is if you get a new receiver with pre outs that has Auddyessey xt32 along with dual sub outputs. You can look at the Denon x4000 at accessories4less or the Denon x4100 if you want Atmos.
In your budget range that would be your best upgrade path.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

XLR can have a lower noise floor and can go farther with less potential for external interference. That said in most homes it really won't matter but technically it's better. 

If you expect to keep this pre/pro for a while I'd encourage you to go ahead and get one that is HDMI2.0/HDCP2.2 compliant. Part of the new spec is for higher bit depth for color and that is something you will notice with your next display/projector. 

Another nice thing is with HDMI 2.0 the CEC protocol can now have ARC split from control so control can be disabled and ARC can stay active. Big help sometimes. 

I've got an AV7701 (Thanks HTS!!!) and I really like it. EQ is good and it if fairly configurable. 

You can use an AVR with pre-out but sometimes functions aren't thought out as well. I used to use an SC-05 and a pre-amp and when I would plug in headphones the audio feed to the amps wouldn't mute.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Per this picture the Marantz AV7701 has two XLR sub outputs.
http://us.marantz.com/Assets/Images/Products/AV7701/c26-MARANTZ-B0092MMXIE-2-l.jpg 
Along with all the other features this unit has if the price is right it looks like a good solution (sans rack mount brackets).
Unless all other features and price were equal I would not let the room correction algorithm be the decision making feature in my selection making process.

Good luck.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

rab-byte said:


> You can use an AVR with pre-out but sometimes functions aren't thought out as well. I used to use an SC-05 and a pre-amp and when I would plug in headphones the audio feed to the amps wouldn't mute.


Now that is interesting.
Who would have thought to check that out before purchasing?


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## iheartaudio (May 11, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> I'll be honest with you, non of those pre pros you listed will improve over what you currently have. The misconception that using balanced outputs gives "better sound" is faulse.


So, you don't think the Yamaha is the weak link in my game? I was always planning to upgrade it after I got amps for all channels, based mostly on the fact that its about 15 years old now, and was (what I perceived as) a mid level entry receiver.

I guess it's just intuitive, but I always assumed there was a distinct audible difference between mass manufactured stuff (like Yamaha/Marantz), and higher end stuff (Like Krell, NAD)

The reason I prefer the balanced XLR is that my Behringer amp can only accept XLR or 1/4" inputs, and if I find something with balanced XLR outputs, I can eliminate a component in the signal chain (CleanBox pro). I also get that it is less likely to take on noise on a long run, but since I have everything in a rack, I can pretty much do 3' cables for everything, and be fine.

Thanks!
-Brad


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I'm not saying you should not upgrade but thos pre pros you listed are not really an upgrade. And for the money you want to spend a newer receiver with the more recent HDMI would be a good thing and Auddyessey xt32 is a smart choice.


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## iheartaudio (May 11, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> I'm not saying you should not upgrade but thos pre pros you listed are not really an upgrade. And for the money you want to spend a newer receiver with the more recent HDMI would be a good thing and Auddyessey xt32 is a smart choice.


Thanks so much for the replies.

And forgive my ignorance, but how is a Krell flagship processor or even a new Marantx (AV7701) not an upgrade for a 15 year old yamaha receiver?
If so, is there anything you could recommend (let's say, under $1000 used) that would be an upgrade?

In my head, I view receivers (and processors) as having a few major tiers: <$500 - pretty ; $500-1500 - decent; 1500-5000 - pretty good; $5000+ = high end (assuming MSRP as the reference). And since I love used gear, a lot of stuff that was $5k can be had for 500-1000 on the used market. I thought any move from a $300-500 integrated amp to a $2000+ Pre/pro would have to be an upgrade, aside from no name brands, or components with specific quality issues.

Thanks again!
-Brad


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

The only plus on the krell is it's stellar pre-amp sound and this is only from what I've heard. Beyond that it's not a great multichannel device. I was going to go that route to match my showcase amp but decided on getting something a bit newer. I understand your wanting a x.2 type machine... it was my desire also. Fortunately I decided to move to the XMC-1 because like you I was not concerned with atmos at the moment. So far it's performing amazing.

The X4000 is a good choice. I have one in a box been in it for the past 6 months since I got the xmc-1. more money would get you the AV7701 for the xlr outputs.

I think what tony is saying is audio quality wise your not going to gain anything so if your wanting to upgrade you might as well DO so to get more HDMI capability/future proof and get something that has audyssey or dirac built in

Not alot of stuff out there is x.2 ready. I particularly liked how Emotiva has theirs setup and can't wait to add my second sub to take advantage of it's capabilities.


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## iheartaudio (May 11, 2014)

Talley said:


> I think what tony is saying is audio quality wise your not going to gain anything so if your wanting to upgrade you might as well DO so to get more HDMI capability/future proof and get something that has audyssey or dirac built in
> 
> Not alot of stuff out there is x.2 ready. I particularly liked how Emotiva has theirs setup and can't wait to add my second sub to take advantage of it's capabilities.


For sure, adding the second sub eliminated almost all the issues I was having with the room. And Stereo Integrity made such a wonderful product, it's a shame that we lost them.... My REW graph was basically -3dB at 10Hz, and that's in a 18"^3 sealed box.....


OK, regarding your comment on audio quality, I'm sorry to be so dense, and I appreciate all the info! Are you saying that there is no real qualitative difference in sound quality from a lower end preamp (say, my Yamaha, for instance) to a higher end one? I guess I can somewhat understand that, that the amps / eq / speakers are providing the true sound, and the best a preamp can do is be invisible? At that point, the only reason to upgrade would be to add newer / more features? That would bring me back to the Marantz AV7701, with the primary selling points being the Audyssey and the x.2 output.

Thank you.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

iheartaudio said:


> For sure, adding the second sub eliminated almost all the issues I was having with the room. And Stereo Integrity made such a wonderful product, it's a shame that we lost them.... My REW graph was basically -3dB at 10Hz, and that's in a 18"^3 sealed box.....
> 
> 
> OK, regarding your comment on audio quality, I'm sorry to be so dense, and I appreciate all the info! Are you saying that there is no real qualitative difference in sound quality from a lower end preamp (say, my Yamaha, for instance) to a higher end one? I guess I can somewhat understand that, that the amps / eq / speakers are providing the true sound, and the best a preamp can do is be invisible? At that point, the only reason to upgrade would be to add newer / more features? That would bring me back to the Marantz AV7701, with the primary selling points being the Audyssey and the x.2 output.
> ...


Yes. I tried the X4000 route w/ the Audyssey XT32 and switched to the XMC-1 for the Dirac control. Both offered the same x.2 capability although I think the XMC offered it in a better implemented way. Marantz = Denon... denon = marantz. Marantz being the higher end of the two. 

Really the X4000 as a pre... w/ all it's features gives you all your looking for minus the XLR outputs. 

I'm not saying that a pre change won't be sonically better but there is only one way to find out. I believe what we are trying to say is the change most likely won't be audible then you'll be feeling an empty wallet and broken hopes.

The Dirac/Audyssey features would yield the biggest gains.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

I am going to throw this out there too... I think if you invested in a MiniDSP Dirac (PC version) it might very well make more of a difference than buying a new preamp/AVR. Also room treatments can make a huge difference.


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## iheartaudio (May 11, 2014)

Talley said:


> I'm not saying that a pre change won't be sonically better but there is only one way to find out. I believe what we are trying to say is the change most likely won't be audible then you'll be feeling an empty wallet and broken hopes.
> The Dirac/Audyssey features would yield the biggest gains.


OK. I can appreciate what you are all saying, as well as the recommendation for some type of room correction / eq abilities. My room is more favorable than some (15'x18', vaulted ceilings / exposed beams), but I havent done any corrections, aside from placing my subs using REW.

While I may (at a later date) upgrade to a pre-pro, my real reason to do it now was to improve the quality of my music / movies. I guess I just thought that the Yamaha was holding me back more than it really is. 

So, now, I can go two directions: Standalone eq / room correction (Like Dirac), or buy the Marantz 7701, which has the Audyssey built in, the x.2 I need, and understand that the improvement will come from being able to EQ my subs separately (big +), and the Audyssey, not because I bought a $2k pre-pro...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The Marantz AV7701 only has Audyssey XT so it wont EQ the two sub channels separately and has only half the EQ filters of XT32. 
The pre pros you listed in your first post are 3 or more years old and the Marantz AV7701 is the best of the ones listed. Some of the others are "boutique" brands and you do pay a premium for the names but dont usually get all the added features and latest room EQ software if any at all. 

Will you notice a difference in sound between your old yamaha and a newer unit almost certainly but what I saying is non of the ones you listed are going to get you as far an "upgrade" as you need in my opinion. Your still buying something that will need replacing sooner rather than later so thats why I recomended the newre Denon x4000 or x4100


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