# Is it worth getting a 2-sub output receiver?



## Greengecko (Dec 6, 2009)

Hello,
I have an Onkyo TX-SR806 running a set of Swans Diva 4.1 (that's the model number), set up in 5.1 surround. I'm running two subs: a Velodyne FSR-15 and a Definitive Technology SuperCube Reference. I'm using a splitter on the sub output and manually adjust the volume of each sub separately using an SPL meter (turning one off while I adjust the other). Then I go through the Audyssey setup. Would there any benefit by upgrading to one of the new Onkyos like the 3007 that have two sub outs? I'm sure Audyssey calibration would be far more precise with the 3007.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

I sold my 3007 for no other reason but that I prefer the sound of Marantz. The higher version of Audyssey and dual sub support is what I miss the most from my former 3007. IMO I gained in all other areas but it was still a noticeable loss of bass management going with a splitter and calibrating with a lesser Audyssey. The only reason Ive not upgraded is Marantz does not support it (yet). If Marantz did support it I would upgrade just for that, yes, yes I would.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Greengecko said:


> Hello,
> I have an Onkyo TX-SR806 running a set of Swans Diva 4.1 (that's the model number), set up in 5.1 surround. I'm running two subs: a Velodyne FSR-15 and a Definitive Technology SuperCube Reference. I'm using a splitter on the sub output and manually adjust the volume of each sub separately using an SPL meter (turning one off while I adjust the other). Then I go through the Audyssey setup. Would there any benefit by upgrading to one of the new Onkyos like the 3007 that have two sub outs? I'm sure Audyssey calibration would be far more precise with the 3007.


Marginal. You have MultEQ and the 3007 has MultEQ XT which has higher resolution filtering but, despite its dual sub outputs, there is no big advantage. The two sub outputs are simply connected together internally and that is equivalent to using a Y-splitter as you do now.

For a substantive advance, look for an Onkyo, Integra or Denon AVR with Audyssey MultEQ XT*32*.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Kal Rubinson said:


> The two sub outputs are simply connected together internally and that is equivalent to using a Y-splitter as you do now.


I dont see how this is possible considering the Audyssey calibration cycle measures each sub individually as it does its thing, it also gives each sub its own level and distance setting.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

TypeA said:


> I dont see how this is possible considering the Audyssey calibration cycle measures each sub individually as it does its thing, it also gives each sub its own level and distance setting.


Oops. You are correct. I had assumed that, because it lacked XT32 and Sub EQ HT, that the outputs were redundant. However, after it tests each sub individually, for distance/level, does it test them together to provide an integrated EQ?


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Kal Rubinson said:


> Oops. You are correct. I had assumed that, because it lacked XT32 and Sub EQ HT, that the outputs were redundant. However, after it tests each sub individually, for distance/level, does it test them together to provide an integrated EQ?


No.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Considering the other posters responces and from i want i would get the 2 sub out AVR.:T


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

TypeA said:


> No.


Ok but that is a limitation of the implementation in this model. I'd still recommend going to an AVR with XT32.


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## Greengecko (Dec 6, 2009)

Great info, guys, thanks.


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## sholling (Oct 6, 2010)

Greengecko said:


> Hello,
> I have an Onkyo TX-SR806 running a set of Swans Diva 4.1 (that's the model number), set up in 5.1 surround. I'm running two subs: a Velodyne FSR-15 and a Definitive Technology SuperCube Reference. I'm using a splitter on the sub output and manually adjust the volume of each sub separately using an SPL meter (turning one off while I adjust the other). Then I go through the Audyssey setup. Would there any benefit by upgrading to one of the new Onkyos like the 3007 that have two sub outs? I'm sure Audyssey calibration would be far more precise with the 3007.


I think there have been some incorrect assumptions here. It's not until you get into the Audyssey XT32 systems with Sub EQ HT that the two subs are EQed separately. In the Onkyo lineup that's the 3008, 3009, 5008, 5009, SC5507 and SC5508. As evidence I'll point the above link (Audyssey) and to page 14 of the TX-NR809 manual:


> You can connect the powered subwoofer with two SUBWOOFER PRE OUT jacks respectively. *The same signal is output from each jack.*


In other words with receivers using Audyssey MultiEQ XT the two subwoofer jacks are the equivalent of a Y-connector.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

sholling said:


> I think there have been some incorrect assumptions here. It's not until you get into the Audyssey XT32 systems with Sub EQ HT that the two subs are EQed separately. In the Onkyo lineup that's the 3008, 3009, 5008, 5009, SC5507 and SC5508.


Actually, that is not completely true. It is on those models that the subs have independent level and distance adjustment but, after phase measurements, the subs are EQed together because Audyssey believes that gives better results.


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## sholling (Oct 6, 2010)

Kal Rubinson said:


> Actually, that is not completely true. It is on those models that the subs have independent level and distance adjustment but, after phase measurements, the subs are EQed together because Audyssey believes that gives better results.


My purpose was to make sure that the OP understood that on most receivers the two jacks are basically an internal y-connector and that if he wants the receiver to set separate levels, distance, and phase he needs MultiEQ XT32 and Sub EQ HT. Unless I misunderstood there seemed to be some confusion there.


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## Greengecko (Dec 6, 2009)

I was not aware of the difference between Audyssey MultEQ XT and XT32. It sounds to me, though, from reading the 3007 manual, that it's more than just the equivalent of a splitter:

"PRE OUT: SW1, SW2 -- These analog audio outputs can be connected to a powered subwoofer. You can connect the powered subwoofer with each jacks respectively. Level and distance can be set individually for each output."

Not as good as the 3008 independent EQ for each sub, it seems, but at least volume and distance can be set independently for two subs. Am I understanding this right?


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

sholling said:


> My purpose was to make sure that the OP understood that on most receivers the two jacks are basically an internal y-connector and that if he wants the receiver to set separate levels, distance, and phase he needs MultiEQ XT32 and Sub EQ HT. Unless I misunderstood there seemed to be some confusion there.


I understand that and it is a good point but I wanted to prevent any further misunderstanding.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Greengecko said:


> I was not aware of the difference between Audyssey MultEQ XT and XT32. It sounds to me, though, from reading the 3007 manual, that it's more than just the equivalent of a splitter:
> 
> "PRE OUT: SW1, SW2 -- These analog audio outputs can be connected to a powered subwoofer. You can connect the powered subwoofer with each jacks respectively. Level and distance can be set individually for each output."
> 
> Not as good as the 3008 independent EQ for each sub, it seems, but at least volume and distance can be set independently for two subs. Am I understanding this right?


Not so. Audyssey marketed a separate sub EQ (which I still have) that permitted separate or combined EQ of the two subs and still recommended using the combined EQ. That allows it to take into account their combined contributions to reproducing the same bass signals in the same room. My observations confirm that it gives superior results compared with separate sub EQs.


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## Greengecko (Dec 6, 2009)

In that case, it's sounding like the 3008's XT32 separate EQ doesn't provide much of an added benefit over the 3007, if the combined EQ provides superior results. Would you agree?


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## madpoet (Jul 26, 2010)

While it might not in the subs, XT32 provides a much better calibration for my entire system than I ever got with just the XT type receivers. I've got a 5008 now and I really like the job it does in my room.


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

How does it do a combined eq without playing the test signal through both subs at the same time? I would think that calculating a eq for each sub, averaging the 2, then applying that to both would be a little crude.


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## jw00dy (Jun 16, 2011)

So I'm still confused.

Does XT set distance, delay (phase), and level?

And if so, as I understand it, it will then EQ both subs together?


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## astrallite (Apr 30, 2010)

A receiver with dual subwoofer pre-outs does save you from employing a Y-Splitter and reduces one cable that needs to be deployed :R

But it shouldn't be the primary reason you get a receiver, since you may get shoehorned into a product with RoomEQ.


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## jw00dy (Jun 16, 2011)

The one I want is the Denon AVR-3312 (considering onkyo too). Though I'm a little on the fence since it doesn't appear to be THX certified and therefore I would think it doesn't have the THX listening modes with I really love on my Pioneer 1120.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

phreak said:


> How does it do a combined eq without playing the test signal through both subs at the same time?


It does. First, it pings them separately and then it pings them together.


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## jw00dy (Jun 16, 2011)

So can we confirm that XT DOES set Distance, Delay (phase), & Level by pinging both subs separately then eq'ing them together?

I just want to make sure it is more than just a Y cable, which to me setting distance, delay and level is a bit more than a Y cable and exactly what I'm looking for without breaking the bank.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

jw00dy said:


> So can we confirm that XT DOES set Distance, Delay (phase), & Level by pinging both subs separately then eq'ing them together?


Typically, XT does not. Some later implementations did. XT32 does.


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## jw00dy (Jun 16, 2011)

Can we confirm the version of Aud XT found in the Denon 3312, 2312, Onkyo 709, 809 that I'm looking at buying (still deciding) DO measure, distance, delay (phase), and level for both subs.

Then EQ's them together.

Does anyone or can anyone confirm the above in my post?

Buying a receiver for it's ability to offer an internal Y cable certainly is NOT a good reason to upgrade.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Kal Rubinson said:


> Typically, XT does not. Some later implementations did. XT32 does.


Strange that they would change a major feature of XT and not rename it at the time, or at least offer the ability to upgrade the software to include it for those who wanted to. I'm not sure how feasible that actually is for XT, but I just find it odd that they would leave it a little ambiguous as to what features "MultEQ XT" contains in various processors.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Owen Bartley said:


> Strange that they would change a major feature of XT and not rename it at the time, or at least offer the ability to upgrade the software to include it for those who wanted to. I'm not sure how feasible that actually is for XT, but I just find it odd that they would leave it a little ambiguous as to what features "MultEQ XT" contains in various processors.


It is not an Audyssey issue, _per se_. It is dependent on the processor having two independent level/distance settings, one for each sub. The vast majority of processors simply have an internal Y-connector to provide "2" sub outputs. For those that have the independent sub channels, the implementation of this feature in XT was during the transition to XT32.


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## jw00dy (Jun 16, 2011)

sounds like I just need to look at the official threads for those AVR's to get to the bottom of this.


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## christmclean (Feb 13, 2012)

I think the answer is yes. Just from a integration standpoint it is much easier. If you have the patience you could work through REW or another EQ program to get the sub right, or buy another outboard processer.

I am very happy with my two sub output HK 7550HD and the ease of use it integrates the subs with. 

I say go for it.


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## jw00dy (Jun 16, 2011)

So in my research, the current model Denon and Onkyo Aud XT receivers are simply internal Y connectors. Dang!


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Kal Rubinson said:


> It is not an Audyssey issue, _per se_. It is dependent on the processor having two independent level/distance settings, one for each sub. The vast majority of processors simply have an internal Y-connector to provide "2" sub outputs. For those that have the independent sub channels, the implementation of this feature in XT was during the transition to XT32.


Ooooohhhh, that makes more sense. So the feature is available in all versions of XT, but it is up to the processor manufacturer setting up the hardware to be able to take advantage of it. Thanks Kal.


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