# First post - Looking to upgrade subwoofer on a budget



## ggxtreme (Aug 16, 2012)

Hello,

I consider myself very interested in HT, as well as home audio in general. I've done some browsing on these forums while pondering over a SW upgrade, but I thought it would be better to ask and give some specifics.

*Setup*: I currently have a budget HT that I've been improving bit-by-bit: Denon AVR-591, Pioneer SP-C21 center, Pioneer SP-B21 mains, Sony SS-B1000 surrounds, Boston Acoustics MCS 95 satellites as height channels (run through a Pyle 2x75W amp connected through the receiver pre-outs) and a *Boston Acoustics MCS 95 subwoofer* (active 8", 100W/250W peak). My setup is Audyssey calibrated (SW is crossed over at 80Hz for all speakers except the height channels and center where the crossover is at 100Hz as per the speaker manual).

*Environment*: the HT is situated in a 13' long by 14' wide area that is at the end of a larger, irregularly-shaped room. The TV/center/mains are about a foot from the front wall and the seating area is about 3.5' from the back wall. Both the front unit and seating area are between two side walls, but there is no left side wall for 7' between the TV/center/mains and listening area (instead the room continues to the left for about another 17' with other room entrances and furniture). My SW is placed on a Subdude just under the shelf where my right main is (about 3.5' from the right side wall and about 11" from the front wall). There is a lot of irregularity in the ceiling: it goes anywhere from 6-7' in different parts due to the beams/pipes in the ceiling. The walls and ceiling seem to be different materials in different spots (some parts seem like drywall while other parts seem much more thin and hollow). The floor is short carpet on concrete.

*Situation*: I am not completely satisfied with what I've been able to get from my SW. While the system sounds very good overall (or as good as I can hope for it to sound given the equipment and room), there are some deficiencies. When I place the SW as far into the front-right corner as I can, bass is heavy and impactful, but the 'sweet spot' of the listening area becomes uselessly small: sitting a few inches to the left results in skull-shaking bass whereas the right side of the couch is pretty dead. I fixed this by moving the SW more to the left, but then it sounds anemic. The compromise I found is moving the sub to the left but moving it as close to the front wall as possible. This gives the most even bass response in the listening area, but the bass is one-note/boomy/muddy/tiring. While this improves in other positions at the cost of evenness, it's never quite right: movies have plenty of impact (sometimes too much it seems) but the bass seems uncontrolled and overbearing even at low gain, causing the SW to be locatable at certain frequencies. Music is worse: bass has some good thump, but doesn't blend very well, still sounds one-notey and has mediocre extension.

Now, I've never really owned a 'real' SW by measure of what I've seen and read online, so my expectations will probably be somewhat lower than some of yours. But I do want an upgrade on a strict budget: *$220 *(before tax/shipping). This money for the SW would be gifted to me for the purpose, and saving up more is not an option for me. I'm aware of the HSU STF-1/2 subs, but unless my budget unexpectedly changes I'm not considering them. *I'm not considering a used SW at this time.* The system is used 50/50 for music and movies, but if I had to choose I'd give the edge to *music*. I want a SW that is tighter, more musical and better at filling a room (in that order of priority) than my current one. These are what I've come up with searching:

*1*. Pinnacle Speakers SUB-SONIX 10-200 10-Inch 200 Watt Front Firing - $150 (haven't heard much about this one, but buyer reviews are promising)
*2*. Velodyne VX-11 10-Inch 150 Watt Front Firing - $170 (I've heard this is a more musical sub than the two below)
*3*. BIC America F12 12-Inch 475-Watt Front Firing - $200 (seems like the most impact, but is it really any good for music?)
*4*. Dayton Audio SUB-1200 12" 120 Watt Front Firing - $119 (seems like the worst of the bunch, but maybe best bang-for-buck if going for duals and most popular)

There are a couple of exceptions to my budget: I can up the budget to *$260* if it means *dual subs* OR *building a sub(s)*. I only want to consider these two options if there will be a worthwhile improvement over the best single/manufactured SW I can get for the same price. I figure any of these will be a noticeable improvement over my current setup, but I'm looking for the best bang-for-buck here. Other suggestions are welcome, but I'd prefer if the suggestion is known by the person suggesting it to be better than something already on my list in one way or another. Another thing I'm considering is acoustic treatment for the room *instead* of a new SW (would be limited to panels/bass traps made with Roxul Acoustic Fire Batt), but only if this will improve bass response more than a new sub. Thanks in advance for the help.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

I'd get a pair of Dayton Audio SUB-1200s, distribute them in your room, cross them at 80Hz and enjoy. These reach down to 20Hz -10dB. Two of them in your challenged, small room should be a nice budget solution.


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

Welcome to HTS!! 

The dual subwoofer idea is a great way to tame room modes and (almost) always improves bass. Dayton subs offer a lot of "bang for the buck" and are widely recommended by staff and participants. 

If your DIY chops are "up-to-snuff," dollar for dollar it's hard to _buy_ a better sub than you can _build_. 

I also noted that you are NOT interested in a used sub; if the dual Daytons or DIY options do not fulfill your needs, you can often find a >$500 retail sub on the used market that is within your budget. SVS PC-12 NSDs ($749 retail) can be found for <$300 _if _you are patient. 

Good luck!!


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## JDEaston (Dec 30, 2011)

I think with your budget the dual daytons would be your best bet. The klipsch rw-12 is a good buy when u can find it on sale though at 299 on sale its still a little out of budget. That said, dual daytons would probably still beat the klipsch. In my opinion your best bet would be to buy a driver and amp and build your own, though I see you haven't expressed interest in doing that.


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Welcome to the Forum. Have fun. Dennis


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## Tom V. (Jul 12, 2012)

I think newegg has the energy 10.3 on sale again for $199 with free shipping. Could be worth a look.

DIYing with a budget of $220-260 might be tough. If you/relative/friend has the tools/space to build you are still looking at what....maybe $75-90 for a decent 12-15" driver and another $150(?) for reliable plate power in the 250-300w range. If you can knock a big sealed box together for $25 or so(anyone you know have a couple spare sheets of MDF/plywood.....pop a dayton $90 15 in and screw on the 300w bash amp at PE? 

Tom V.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Tom V. said:


> I think newegg has the energy 10.3 on sale again for $199 with free shipping. Could be worth a look.


You are indeed correct, it is on sale again. For $200 that's about as good a deal as there is too. Whether or not it's going to work in the OP's environment though depends upon what exactly he meant by _"a larger, irregularly-shaped room"_. It's possible the entire volume of space is going to be too much for a single S10.3.


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## ggxtreme (Aug 16, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies. As a small update, I've put a bit more work into getting my current SW to give the best performance possible in my room. This meant using REW and moving the SW, other speakers and listening area. In the end, I found that there was a huge (~30dB) bass null at around 70Hz at the best SW/listening position. I tried placing the sub in every other possible location in the room I could (within the constraints of walls and furniture) and this only got worse—40dB+ of loss in the 60-75Hz region. I noticed that Audyssey seemed to compensate for this by providing a huge gain boost in that region: instead of hearing the SW, I heard the room and furniture rattle when playing 70Hz tones. I worked around this by messing with the listening and speaker positions until Audyssey and had the crossovers detected at 60Hz (below speaker spec, but still reasonable to my ears). Now I have a smooth transition from 90Hz to 50Hz without the SW going crazy and shaking the place. Evenness is still an issue and the new listening position I had to settle on sacrificing imaging quality from the mains.

With this 70Hz null in mind, would dual subs do anything for me? I did test my subwoofer at all positions I could have dual subs and nothing seemed to make up for this. I don't even know if the null is from the room or the SW response (would a nearfield measurement determine this?). Would bass traps be a good idea?



JDEaston said:


> In my opinion your best bet would be to buy a driver and amp and build your own, though I see you haven't expressed interest in doing that.


Well, I actually am somewhat interested, but only if something worthwhile was possible in a $260 budget. I could borrow tools and scrap for materials if needed.

I also did take a look at the Energy S10.3, but I don't know too much about it. Is it likely to have a weaker output than the other subs I mentioned? My current 8" sub does slam pretty hard during movies even without having to turn it up: it just doesn't do a great job with evenness, clarity and extension. It seems like the larger cone, bigger box and 2x wattage/>3x 'peak' wattage should resolve this to some extent...well, should it? As for filling the room, even though the room is quite large, the listening area has completely enclosed corners and 3 out of 4 side walls in the small 13' x 14' area. If this is more significant than the open space connected to it, then the Energy S10.3 does seem like a great deal.

Thanks again for all the helpful responses.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

ggxtreme said:


> I also did take a look at the Energy S10.3, but I don't know too much about it. Is it likely to have a weaker output than the other subs I mentioned? My current 8" sub does slam pretty hard during movies even without having to turn it up: it just doesn't do a great job with evenness, clarity and extension.


If your current sub doesn't have much in the way of evenness, clarity and extension what exactly does it have that you like? Other than output (volume) there's not a whole lot left for a subwoofer to do. To be honest, if an 8" sub with all those deficiencies satisfies you now I can only imagine how impressed you would be by something like the S10.3. I'm sure it would be a world of difference.


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## ggxtreme (Aug 16, 2012)

theJman said:


> If your current sub doesn't have much in the way of evenness, clarity and extension what exactly does it have that you like? Other than output (volume) there's not a whole lot left for a subwoofer to do. To be honest, if an 8" sub with all those deficiencies satisfies you now I can only imagine how impressed you would be by something like the S10.3. I'm sure it would be a world of difference.


Well, if I limit myself to a single listening position at the very center of my couch, movies sound decent (loud) with the new positions and calibration (bass was boomy and pretty awful at times with noticeable nulls with the old listening position). However, the compromises I made to obtain this (moving the listening position further back and lowering the crossover to 60Hz) have hurt the imaging of both my mains and my surround speaker: the listening 'triangle' of the mains is stretched badly and leaves my surrounds at essentially a 90 degree angle to the center (I can't move them further back due to room constraints). Bass response across the width of the couch is worse as well. It's this tradeoff of moving the listening position back to lower the crossover that I'm hoping a new sub(s) can bypass (this means raising the crossover to 80Hz, which is why I want a sub with good clarity and musical qualities). The other more general complaint about my SW is extension: some of my music goes deep and after Audyssey calibration I end up with the sub bottoming out and things rattling when the music get low.

*TL;DR* I want to actually be able to hear the bass without having my couch just a foot from the back wall. I'm hoping a new subs(s) can help with this issue as well as the others, but, if not, suggestions about room treatment, etc. are welcome.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Sounds like the S10.3 would fit your needs then. At the current price of $200 it's pretty much a steal too.


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## JDEaston (Dec 30, 2011)

ggxtreme said:


> Thanks for all the replies. As a small update, I've put a bit more work into getting my current SW to give the best performance possible in my room. This meant using REW and moving the SW, other speakers and listening area. In the end, I found that there was a huge (~30dB) bass null at around 70Hz at the best SW/listening position. I tried placing the sub in every other possible location in the room I could (within the constraints of walls and furniture) and this only got worse—40dB+ of loss in the 60-75Hz region. I noticed that Audyssey seemed to compensate for this by providing a huge gain boost in that region: instead of hearing the SW, I heard the room and furniture rattle when playing 70Hz tones. I worked around this by messing with the listening and speaker positions until Audyssey and had the crossovers detected at 60Hz (below speaker spec, but still reasonable to my ears). Now I have a smooth transition from 90Hz to 50Hz without the SW going crazy and shaking the place. Evenness is still an issue and the new listening position I had to settle on sacrificing imaging quality from the mains.
> 
> With this 70Hz null in mind, would dual subs do anything for me? I did test my subwoofer at all positions I could have dual subs and nothing seemed to make up for this. I don't even know if the null is from the room or the SW response (would a nearfield measurement determine this?). Would bass traps be a good idea?
> 
> ...


You can get the dcs385 from parts Express for $107.84. It's a 15" 4ohm driver, with an advertised frequency range of 19-150hz, 9.3mm Xmas, and a fs of 19.5hz. 

Couple that with a 250-300 watt amp for $100-150 and you could build something that will outperform anything manufactured around that price range as long as you have some material and tools to work with. Its not the best driver in the world but I believe there would be a noticable difference between it and your other options. Although if you don't go the DIY route I still think dual sub 1200's would be hour best bet. They won't dig as deep as a DIY 15, but with multiple subs you will have a smoother transition throughout your room within the usable frequency range.


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## ggxtreme (Aug 16, 2012)

I'm going to have to put the upgrade on hold for a few weeks due to an incident. That probably rules out the S10.3 unless there's another sale =/



JDEaston said:


> You can get the dcs385 from parts Express for $107.84. It's a 15" 4ohm driver, with an advertised frequency range of 19-150hz, 9.3mm Xmas, and a fs of 19.5hz.
> 
> Couple that with a 250-300 watt amp for $100-150 and you could build something that will outperform anything manufactured around that price range as long as you have some material and tools to work with. Its not the best driver in the world but I believe there would be a noticable difference between it and your other options. Although if you don't go the DIY route I still think dual sub 1200's would be hour best bet. They won't dig as deep as a DIY 15, but with multiple subs you will have a smoother transition throughout your room within the usable frequency range.


I noticed that the DCS380 is similarly spec'd to the DCS385 but about $20 cheaper. Would there be any noticeable drawback to the cheaper driver? And any opinions on the SPA250 plate amp? It seems like these would be a great match for a budget build, but I don't have any actual speaker building experience.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

ggxtreme said:


> It seems like these would be a great match for a budget build, but I don't have any actual speaker building experience.


DIY Sound Group has very nice, yet dirt cheap, subwoofer flat packs that should be pretty easy to build. That might be an option for you.


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## ggxtreme (Aug 16, 2012)

theJman said:


> DIY Sound Group has very nice, yet dirt cheap, subwoofer flat packs that should be pretty easy to build. That might be an option for you.


I've read that particular driver would be good in a somewhat large box (>7ft^3), surely I can build something like that for less than $115? Or should I look at a different driver for the smaller volume?

Edit: I was wrong about the volume.

Edit: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/ported-subwoofer-build-projects/60927-300-15-ported-sub.html


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