# Onkyo Cooling Thresholds



## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

Does anyone know how hot is "too hot" for a receiver? My TX-NR929 seems to be going a lot hotter now than it used to. I don't have anything more elaborate than a meat thermometer to test it, so hesitant to guess what temp I'm seeing, but my receiver is now (seemingly since the last firmware update, but it could just be me) getting very hot to the touch. 

Last night was Iron Man followed by Pacific Rim - a suitable challenge pushing 9 channels (satellites crossed off at 100Hz, so not "that bad" but still plenty loud.)

I touched the top of the receiver afterwards - HOT! Shone a light inside and both cooling fans were sitting idle, apparently lazing on the beach like a tourist in Mexico.... Seems to me "cooler is better" here, especially with Onkyo's past troubles with HDMI boards frying. 

I asked them, they didn't give me any thresholds, they just said the fans didn't activate because the internal temp hadn't reached the activation threshold yet. I see no way to adjust the settings in the options menu. It seems wasteful for me to purchase a cooling unit just because theirs isn't coming on as low as I think/feel it should. 

Anyone have insight on this? My last receiver (Yamaha RX-V875) lasted 20 years - it's still working, just doesn't support the sound fields and digital inputs.... Would like to get some longevity from my Onkyo and it would seem heat is likely the easiest way to kill it. 

-I guess I could wait for the warranty to expire as a fried HDMI board "should" be covered, since they have cooling fans and an overheat protection circuit. Once that expires, I could open the chassis and rewrite the fans to just always be on whenever the system is powered up....

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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Hot to the touch is hotter than I would like to see. I think that the mistake Onkyo made is setting the fan based on what the amp needs, which can tolerate more heat than the HDMI electronics apparently can. You could add an exterior fan.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I agree, if it's hot to the touch that's too hot. Placing a fan sucking the air out near the rear top right will work wonders in dropping the heat load. Contrary to popular belief speakers that are crossed over still draw a lot on the amps as most speakers will have dips into the 4 ohm area in the mids as well.


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## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

Thanks! And they're 4ohm speakers to boot. Doesn't help I'm sure!

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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yes, in that case they could very well dip below 2ohms at times.


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## primetimeguy (Jun 3, 2006)

Have you ever noticed the fans on? Maybe they or the circuit is faulty.


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## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

Never. That's why I contacted them. 

"@Onkyo_USA: @gregsdouglas Hello again Greg-Happy New Year to you! As the fans are not activated- it means the receiver hasn't reached the activated temp"

Diagnosed via twitter. Apparently....

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## primetimeguy (Jun 3, 2006)

I would push back on them saying you think they are faulty since the unit is screaming hot and you have never heard or seen the fans engage.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Is it in a place where it can get good airflow? Funny I hear people say their Onkyo runs hot but mine never gets any more than luke warm to the touch. My 809 is on the top of my cabinet with no airflow restriction at all.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

My 709 is the same. Even running hard (5 channels) it only gets warm when I have it alone on an open shelf. If I stack anything on top of it or enclose it at all it gets hotter than I am comfortable with.


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## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

Onkyo sent me the procedure for reading out their internal temp sensors using some key combinations on the front panel - it apparently will put the temperature data onto the front display (no idea about on-screen)

They sent it to me over twitter. Once I get back home on a computer, I'll clean it up and post it here. I imagine that'd be interesting info for most Onkyo owners. Cheers.

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## Viking (Jan 7, 2014)

Greg, I would be interested in the procedure to read out the temps. I have an 828, so it should be the same. I have not noticed any heat to speak of tho, with the receiver only getting just a bit warmish, even running for the 24 hours I gave it for break in. , I dunno, do we have to break these things in anymore?? onder:


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## rselby (Feb 8, 2012)

I would like to see also!


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I am interested in that also. Would be nice to see exactly how warm these Onkyo's actually run.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

If Onkyo keep the same settings as my 805 this is how you do it to see the temperature display:

Directions:
- Press and hold the Display button
- While holding Display, press and release the Power button once
- Release the Display button
- Quickly press the Tone button

*Note: Press all the buttons on the Receiver, not on the remote.

If you do all of that right your receiver should display this (it's kind of hard to get to):

T: 44/ 45FAN:-
V: 0.00 SEC:H

The 44/45 is the temperature I believe (in Celsius).


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## WSJ (Jan 6, 2014)

My Yamaha RX-V667 Receiver is about 3 years old. I installed a fan on my receiver because it was over 30° F hotter inside than the room temperature without driving speakers.

Reliability is directly proportional to heat, for every 10° C rise the MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) is cut in half.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> If Onkyo keep the same settings as my 805 this is how you do it to see the temperature display:
> 
> Directions:
> - Press and hold the Display button
> ...


Thanks Tony....:T


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## Viking (Jan 7, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> If Onkyo keep the same settings as my 805 this is how you do it to see the temperature display:
> 
> Directions:
> - Press and hold the Display button
> ...


Thank you Tony


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## the1shark (Aug 9, 2014)

Hello Greg,
I have run into your post since I am experiencing the same problem with the same receiver.
Normally, temp reading are between 102-105 F but in some rare cases the unit can hit 120-122 F.
I believe it has to do with the processor load since environmental conditions have not changed since day 1.
Even the reference listening level kept unchanged.
Any howת I really would appreciate it if you post here the Onkyo procedure for showing the internal temp.
if you have some more insight on the subject , I'll be happy to hear them.

Thanks in advance 

the1shark


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## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

I am waiting for their engineer to get back to me. 

I put my phone up into the chassis with the light on and recorded this video: http://youtu.be/O5UsyGRnarw

You can easily see the fans are NOT staying on, and only pulse whenever there is a bass signal. You can hear the clicking I have reported as welll. 

Is this what yours is doing? I'm waiting for a response from their engineer moving ahead. Will post it when I get it. 

G

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## the1shark (Aug 9, 2014)

Hello Greg,
By saying "experiencing the same problems" I meant overheating issues. 
Looking at your video, it does look like a poor cooling implementation, I had an old Onkyo receiver (TX-DS939) that did the same thing so I guess this cooling implementation has not been change since.
If that the case, we definitely need an external fan which will suck the air out from the unit. 

Any how, the overheating in my case is not consistent, once in a while I am getting a high temperature reading 120-122F but in most cases the unit doesn't heat above 102-105F.

I am curious about the procedure by which you can read the internal temperature of the unit. Can you please post it here ?

Thanks in advance 

The1shark


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## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

They walked me thru it and I don't remember what it was. Email them directly at: [email protected]

There are a bunch of different code combinations to display data, reset data, etc. I don't remember the codes themselves let alone which did what... Sorry.

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## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

By the way - I have forwarded your post on to Onkyo as well, letting them know I'm not alone and they have what I would consider to be a problem with their firmware settings/program.

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## the1shark (Aug 9, 2014)

Yep, sure thing.
Keep me posted if you hear from Onkyo support.
I going to order an external fan just in case.


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## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

Wonder if there's a way to hook one up to the 12v trigger so it switches on and off with the receiver. That's basically all I asked from Onkyo. I have no idea why their engineers are so keen to shut them off. 

I could see an argument for reducing electrical noise and interference, but I think I'd rather have them constantly on than letting things get hot and then having extra interference from them cycling in and off indefinitely. 

Seems so dumb. The fans are there. They are silent. Why not just run them???

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## the1shark (Aug 9, 2014)

Well , the 929 does not have 12v trigger for zone1 so you will need to turn on zone2 every time you use zone1 which will lead to more heat .. 
I agree with your argument , as I said earlier, it is looks like a poor cooling implementation.
I will try to make a video to figure out how the fans in my unit act.


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## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

Something like this may work:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0085...3&ref_=sr_1_2&s=electronics&sr=1-2&tag=vig-20

$30 for a temp-controller, $17 for the fan and $15 for the power supply. Comes with the sensor to mount on/under/wherever and switches on/off at 87F/30C. 

As long as it isn't loud, it should work. I don't like the idea that it would be keeping the receiver right at/near 30C all the time, potentially cycling on/off during movies but if you don't hear it, I guess it'd be ok. Maybe mount it under the receiver (if you could get clearance under it to allow air flow of course)

I don't see any depth spec, but at 19db I don't think noise would be an issue, as long as the controller doesn't click like a relay when it changes state. 

Anyway, this is the first one I saw, I'm sure there are other options and alternatives. May just end up getting a 19-21u rack storage unit with active cooling and be done with it. 

Sure seems like a lot of hassle and expense just because the engineers at Onkyo don't want to run the fans included in the receiver in the first place. (Seriously - what are they thinking?!?! This is such an easy problem for them to solve. Firmware update: fans switch on with power. Done!)

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## the1shark (Aug 9, 2014)

Greg, 
I think you need a blower fan since a regular fan will push the air up and if your unit is inside an equipment cabinet, it won't do any good. You want to push air outside. 
Google for "Coolerguys Dual Blower Fan Component Cooler with Manual Speed Control" 
( I can't attach a link since I have less then 5 posts, I am new here ) 
I will work on the video later tonight. 

the1shark


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## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

Actually this one looks perfect. Nice video showing how it works, and it has adjustable on and off temps, so it could be stretched out for longer runs as long as the "off temp" set point was just slightly higher than room temp. 

http://www.coolerguys.com/840556090885.html

$35 for the controller, plus fan and power. 

They have it as a kit here:
http://www.coolerguys.com/cabinetcooling.html

And VERY interesting is the USB-powered alternative: 
http://www.coolerguys.com/840556090588.html

It says these work with cable boxes. May work for a receiver with a USB port like these 929's.

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## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

Thanks - I don't have a rack yet and not sure I want one. I have a shelf right under my screen. It holds all my gear, my Wii for the kids and my center channel speaker. Receiver sits wide open, just need to move air through it. Either from the bottom or drawn up by a top-mounted one. 

Unless I bite the bullet and get a 19-21u half-rack enclosure. Not sure I want to drop that kind of coin just to solve an issue that Onkyo should solve for free....

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## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

the1shark said:


> Greg, I think you need a blower fan since a regular fan will push the air up and if your unit is inside an equipment cabinet, it won't do any good. You want to push air outside. Google for "Coolerguys Dual Blower Fan Component Cooler with Manual Speed Control" ( I can't attach a link since I have less then 5 posts, I am new here ) I will work on the video later tonight. the1shark


Yes!!!

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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

I really like the idea of the temperature controller and a really quiet fan. Sounds like a good compromise. I do find it strange that this is even an issue, though. Such effort and discussion from humble owners stemming from what is just poor engineering at the root cause. There are AVRs in the world that don't run that hot, and normal convection cooling is just fine...and absolutely silent. Again, Onkyo, you should be ashamed to put your customers through all this for what is basically an engineering problem to solve. Oh, sorry, I'm wrong, it's a cost problem to solve. Yeah, that's right, the cost of every component in a design is multiplied by 5 to achieve the product price. So that $50 fan/controller solution is, to Onkyo, a $250 solution. 

...and that's why they dumped it on all of us.

Or they could have tried the Denon solution of building more efficient amplifiers and power supplies.


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## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

Well, maybe. But they would not be paying retail either so it'd be a lot less than $50 they're multiplying -and really, there are already multiple fans in the unit, so those are already bought and paid for, they just aren't used.... 

Regardless, I do love the sound and function of the receiver, just wish I could physically touch the case after a Quentin Tarantino flick... 

Have contacted Coolermaster for a specific recommendation. They have a USB mounted kit with temp controller and two blower fans that looks like I could just drop it on top, plug it in and walk away. 

http://www.coolerguys.com/cgccrdb120mm.html

If that's the case, it's $100 with shipping and I will close this issue off on my end. (With a still-annoyed at Onkyo's engineers attitude moving forward. Seriously. Just turn on the fans you already sold me and this is a non-issue already!)


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

gregsdouglas said:


> Well, maybe. But they would not be paying retail either so it'd be a lot less than $50 they're multiplying -and really, there are already multiple fans in the unit, so those are already bought and paid for, they just aren't used....


That's all I'm saying...bad engineering.


gregsdouglas said:


> Regardless, I do love the sound and function of the receiver, just wish I could physically touch the case after a Quentin Tarantino flick...


Yes, they do sound nice, but they aren't the only AVRs that do. Some others even sound nice and don't get hot.


gregsdouglas said:


> Have contacted Coolermaster for a specific recommendation. They have a USB mounted kit with temp controller and two blower fans that looks like I could just drop it on top, plug it in and walk away.
> 
> http://www.coolerguys.com/cgccrdb120mm.html
> 
> If that's the case, it's $100 with shipping and I will close this issue off on my end. (With a still-annoyed at Onkyo's engineers attitude moving forward. Seriously. Just turn on the fans you already sold me and this is a non-issue already!)


Sounds like the way to go. For me, if I had to spend another $100 to solve Onkyo's engineering problem, well. I wouldn't. There are far to many other options for me to run through all of that trouble, because it's not just the $100, it's all that time you just spent figuring out something that should have been corrected in the design before you bought it. It's the kind of thing that I wish Onkyo customers would vote with their wallet about. 

Great solution, but still a band-aid.


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## gregsdouglas (Feb 20, 2013)

Yep. Can't do much more voting now that I own it. 

Once I outgrow this, I think it's on to separates... If I can keep this cool though, hopefully I can hang on to this rig for a long while. 

Running 9.2, moving to separates is a massive commitment though. And if Atmos is worth the upgrade, it'll be even worse! Cheers.

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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

gregsdouglas said:


> Yep. Can't do much more voting now that I own it.
> 
> Once I outgrow this, I think it's on to separates... If I can keep this cool though, hopefully I can hang on to this rig for a long while.
> 
> Running 9.2, moving to separates is a massive commitment though. And if Atmos is worth the upgrade, it'll be even worse! Cheers.


Hopefully when you're ready for separates there'll be a more compelling reason than cooling. Right now, the separate route includes too many other compromises beyond the flagship AVRs to make it worth doing in all but the biggest rooms with the least efficient speakers. 

Ha, funny story, a customer of mine was showing off his "separates" system built with pro amps. He turned on the power, it sounded like someone started a vacuum cleaner. Thus negating any possible advantage. 

Stay cool, dude.


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## essneff (Jul 13, 2014)

It could be the4 ohm speakers. I ran my 929 with 4 ohms speakers and the 929 got hot in about 50 minutes.
I now run 2 usb fans on top drawing air away from the AVR and everything is fine so far.
I have the fans on a power strip with the unit and they come on when powered by the strip and I leave them on a few minutes after I turn off the unit.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

4ohm speakers will run any amp hotter than normal. Many people find leaving the receiver in the 8ohm setting helps with keeping it cooler.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Keeping it in the 8 ohm setting will, if anything, cause it to run hotter. The 4 ohm setting will limit the voltage swing in the power supply to prevent drawing too much current from the amp. The load is the same either way, and the output impedance of the amp is the same. Using the 8 ohm setting will let you play it louder but you run a greater risk of overheating and driving the amp to clipping.


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## the1shark (Aug 9, 2014)

lcaillo said:


> Keeping it in the 8 ohm setting will, if anything, cause it to run hotter. The 4 ohm setting will limit the voltage swing in the power supply to prevent drawing too much current from the amp. The load is the same either way, and the output impedance of the amp is the same. Using the 8 ohm setting will let you play it louder but you run a greater risk of overheating and driving the amp to clipping.


 Well, I don't think the heat comes from the amps. I believe the heat is related to the processor usage. The main concept for locating the 2 fans near the amps is based on the assumption that keeping the amps cooler will promise a clean and undistorted sound at any given condition. That can explain Greg video taping the fans kicks in only on heavy load. The processor might have some kind of passive cooling solution. Any how, I believe the idea was to push hot air away from the amps since the DSP as a digital component is less insensitive to high temperature.

the1shark


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

the1shark said:


> Well, I don't think the heat is related to the amps. I believe the heat is related to the processor usage. The main concept for locating the 2 fans near the amps is based on the assumption that keeping the amps cooler will promise a clean and undistorted sound at any given condition. That can explain Greg video as you can see the fans kicks in only on heavy load. The processor might have some kind of passive cooling solution. Any how, I believe the idea was to push hot air away from the amps since the DSP as a digital component is less insensitive to high temperature.


The DSP load isn't variable though, its running constantly so long as there's a bitstream present. It takes the same number of clock cycles regardless of the content of a digital word, so low volume vs high volume doesn't really change anything as far as the DSP goes. It's not like a CPU heating up in a computer, where the actual processing load changes a lot. Power amp dissipation changes radically depending on power delivered to the load.


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## the1shark (Aug 9, 2014)

gazoink said:


> Power amp dissipation changes radically depending on power delivered to the load.


Agreed, That's why they located the fans near the amps.



gazoink said:


> The DSP load isn't variable though, its running constantly so long as there's a bitstream present.


Not so sure ..
Using any listening mode ( DTS Neo:X™ , Dolby Pro Logic IIz, Audyssey DSX ) will demand more processing power.
Even in a straight decode mode, Audyssey will create additional load on the CPU that will be added to the existing load as a result of the soundtrack decode,
Another example will be a down-mix of a 7.1 audio track to a 5.1 format. It will require some processing..
Audio streaming or internet radio will require more cpu time since something need to handle the network traffic.
IMHO, all this examples converge with many posts in regards to *inconsistent* overheating issues.

In my case, my unit tend to overheat ( ~120-125F) if I downmix a 7.1 audio track to a 5.1 ( my setup is 5.1 )
The unit also overheated when I did the initial setup and the Audyssey calibration.
Any other cases, I am not even close to 102F.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

the1shark said:


> Agreed, That's why they located the fans near the amps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree, but those are all basically different steady-state loads. My point was, DSP load/heating is not audio content dependant like a power amp. Yes, different degrees of processing will load the DSP differently. But once a processing mode has been selected, the audio content doesn't change the DSP load.


the1shark said:


> In my case, my unit tend to overheat ( ~120-125F) if I downmix a 7.1 audio track to a 5.1 ( my setup is 5.1 )


 How were those temperature measurements obtained? If those are processor temperatures, that's not considered "overheating". Many laptop CPUs average 130 to 140 degrees. My Core i7 is running 138 right now with a light load. You have to be careful about what you consider overheating when looking at internal temperatures. Me much more concerned with either ambient inside the box, or if the cover is too hot to touch.


the1shark said:


> The unit also overheated when I did the initial setup and the Audyssey calibration.
> 
> Any other cases, I am not even close to 102F.


Again, we have to define what "overheated" means. Did it shut down? Did it burn your hand? Or did you read 120 degrees at a processor temp sensor? Very different things.


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## the1shark (Aug 9, 2014)

gazoink said:


> Yes, I agree, but those are all basically different steady-state loads. My point was, DSP load/heating is not audio content dependant like a power amp. Yes, different degrees of processing will load the DSP differently. But once a processing mode has been selected, the audio content doesn't change the DSP load.
> How were those temperature measurements obtained? If those are processor temperatures, that's not considered "overheating". Many laptop CPUs average 130 to 140 degrees. My Core i7 is running 138 right now with a light load. You have to be careful about what you consider overheating when looking at internal temperatures. Me much more concerned with either ambient inside the box, or if the cover is too hot to touch.
> 
> Again, we have to define what "overheated" means. Did it shut down? Did it burn your hand? Or did you read 120 degrees at a processor temp sensor? Very different things.


Measurements obtained by aiming an infrared thermometer at the top rear of the unit.
"Overheating" is a subjective observation I agree. I want to be clear, forget "Overheating",
What I am trying to understand is why my unit *in some cases* tend to heat 20-25 F above usual while environmental conditions hasn't been change.

Generally, If you ask Onkyo support they will say their unit tend to work 80 degrees above room temperature..
So lets assume 77 is an acceptable normal value + 80 gives us 157F . If you ask me this number is insane.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

the1shark said:


> Measurements obtained by aiming an infrared thermometer at the top rear of the unit.
> "Overheating" is a subjective observation I agree. I want to be clear, forget "Overheating",
> What I am trying to understand is why my unit *in some cases* tend to heat 20-25 F above usual while environmental conditions hasn't been change.
> 
> ...


So that's a cabinet surface temperature. Yes, that's insane, and a burn hazard. Wonder what Onkyo would do with a medical bill from your 3 year old who laid his hand on your AVR. 140 degrees for 3 seconds = second degree burn.

Ok, I'm back to "this is really poor engineering". And now, it's a personal injury liability! Hmmm!


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## the1shark (Aug 9, 2014)

As to the overheating inconsistency I mentioned here couple of pages earlier, since the heat issues is related to the video processor, I believe that the unit heat in regards to the overall bit rate ( video / audio ) which can explain the inconsistency. 
Anyhow, I solved my problem by adding 2 Antec TrueQuiet pro 120mm fans.
http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/antec_truequiet_pro_120_review,1.html
Very quiet less then 18db and important to me, unseen from the seat point ( in my setup )
Although I bought a thermostat I didn't hock it up yet so the 2 fan works all the time.
The result is amazing. After 2h temperature measurement was 90F and Before installation of the fans the unit reached 120F


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