# AV Receiver - HDMI?



## Reese (Jan 12, 2010)

HDMI is now becoming almost standard on many recievers. On the other hand I've been noticing some slightly older receivers that were top of the line models just a few years ago. Of course these older models didn't have HDMI but because people are upgrading they seem to be a great bargain. For example I've seen some Marantz 8500 for about $500.

My question is beside the source switching flexibility are there any other significant advantages to current HDMI receivers?


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

If you dont have a BluRay player then HDMI really does not offer much added bonus The big issue is that most upconverting DVDs and BluRay players do not pass upconverted material over component cables (your next best choice for HD video) and component wont do 1080p only 1080i.
HDMI is also needed to receive the uncompressed audio formats from BluRay if the bluray player does not have analog multi channel audio outputs and the receiver does not have the inputs.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Hello,
Having an HDMI equipped AVR is important beyond source switching. In addition, current HDMI 1.3 AVR's can decode the new codecs (True HD and DTS-HD) available from Blu Ray Players. Moreover current AVR's can handle and decode the codecs while applying Bass Management and Room EQ (Audyssey, MCACC, YPAO, Trinnov, etc).

While pre HDMI AVR's can receive the new codecs via multichannel analog inputs, Bass Management must be done at the Blu Ray Player and Room EQ is not available. The results of this are a diminished overall experience compared to a current AVR. And is the reason that AVR's that sold for thousands of Dollars a few years ago are worth very little now.

Another issue is that most entry level BDP's do not have multichannel analog outputs and in the future it is the goal of Movie Studios that BDP's have no analog outputs at all. This is part of the HDMI Final Adopter Agreement which is also known as the Analog Sunset.

For the time being, you can get a very high quality pre HDMI AVR for an amazing deal. However, in addition to the performance shortcomings, there are issues of future compatibility.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Reese (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Thanks, I guess I have some thinking to do.

I'll have to look at the current crop of receivers and see what I can afford vs. waiting until all of this gets sorted out. It seems like buying an HDMI passthrough type reciever is helpful but obviously only a temp solution.


----------



## MrPorterhouse (Jul 29, 2006)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

You may want to consider one of the older Flagship AVR's just for their amp section alone. You can always use a newer AVR with all of the HDMI and features you need and use the older AVR for the AMP section to power your speakers.


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

HDMI has been evolving over the last few years and it is here to stay but there has been many iterations which is currently on version 1.3a IIRC but there will be a version of 1.4 I believe coming out soon, by having a 1.3 capable amp means it can carry HD sources for both Video and Audio which tbh makes things nice and simple when making connections as you do tend to use less cables.

If you do not have a HDTV which does not accept HDMI then usually the most you will get is up to 1080i signal via component for HD but for Full HD video is rated up to 1080p, which is what most BD players output, it's not to say that you do need to buy a HDMI capable receiver but it will be more future proof if you do and offer you the decoding of HD Audio ie Dolby True HD and DTS HD in the receiver itself.

The other option is to go with a higher end legacy AV amp/receiver and then use a BD player with analogue outputs so that you can still enjoy the HD audio formats, but tbh I would try and get a decent quality BD player if going down this route, as the SQ will depend on how good the DAC's are in that player and then all the receiver will do will accept them as Multichannel inputs and you lose a lot of features in the av amp, like bass management and usually EQ is also bypassed which could potentially be a problem.

Yes there are some good legacy equipment out there but it comes as a cost which is you are losing out on some of the great new technologies that are now being used.


----------



## Reese (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Thanks for all the great info. I have lots to think about to determine what I can and cannot live without.

Not counting the receiver, I am purchasing a new +50" LCD, BD player, plus 2 powered subs...and it's all starts adding up fast...as you all know....:gulp:


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Hello,
While I definitely agree that you could get a superior amplifier section is something like the Marantz AVR-8500, I still think the best way to go is getting a current AVR with preamp outputs and using outboard amplification.

Be it 2 channel or multichannel, using outboard amplifiers will almost always result in better performance. There are some gonzo AVR's like Denon's 5805 that compare to or equal some outboard amplifiers, but this is most decidedly the exception to the rule.

With AVR's like Onkyo's TX-SR706 available B-Stock for 400 Dollars (900 MSRP), you are getting Audyssey MultEQ, THX Certification and Processing and preamp outputs. 

There are many choices out there for amplification. Used 2 channel amps can be found for a few hundred Dollars. Or something like Emotiva's XPA-5 has been on sale for 699 and is a 5 channel amp.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Reese (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Hmmm....that is a thought. You'd get the processing and switching flexibility with the ability to add relatively cheap amps as needed. When you think about it....how much money goes towards the amp section of a $750 7.1 receiver....probably not very much.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Hello,
Using an AVR solely as an SSP (Surround Sound Processor) is a very popular choice. I do it myself as do many others here. Including the Owner of Home Theater Shack, Sonnie.

While Onkyo has released a reasonably priced dedicated SSP and Emotiva has recently released one, for many years, SSP's cost thousands more while often offering less functionality.

With the release of Onkyo's PR-SC885 and DTC-9.8, finally was there the cost effective option to get an SSP. However, it is still nice to have backup amplification from an AVR. Moreover, many choose to use outboard amplification for only the front two channels.

This both gives you excellent stereo sound and gives more power to the Center and Surround Channels.
Truly a win-win situation.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Its also about market sales volume SSP's dont sell nearly as many as receivers even though some think that the processing in SSP's is better this is no longer the case as Onkyo has proven over and over with their 805, 875 and newer as they used the very best DACs available and had top notch video processing along with THX ultra certification, Audyssey and a very powerful amplification section for what now sell for under $1000 most if not all SSPs with the same options cost well over twice as much or dont even have many of the features.


----------



## Reese (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Everyone's advice has been very helpful in getting me started. The high end legacy receivers that I thought might have been a good bargain are really not...especially when you consider lack of HDMI and newer processing features.

Just started looking but Onkyo does have some good looking recievers in the $600-$800 with all the processing featured discussed.

Thxs.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Hello,
Onkyo's are really difficult to beat currently when price/performance is factored in. Ever since the release of Onkyo's x05 Series, Onkyo has really been on a roll offering impressive feature sets coupled with strong amplification.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

That was one of many things that impressed me with my old 905 and that it had plenty of power on tap....


----------



## Reese (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Reg: Onkyo

SR-707 $599
NR-807 $779 Networking and an extra 35 watts. 

On paper the 707 seems good enough for me especially with the option of adding seperate amps if needed???


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

The 707 with an outboard amp will be more than ample. To really get a better receiver you need to step up to the 876.


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

There are certainly some good deals to be had on the outgoing Onkyo models and will offer nearly all the features and power you could possibly want and as mentioned you can always add power amps later on if required.


----------



## Reese (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Okay last one:

HT-RC180 - $628
TX-SR707 - $599

Don't laugh but I really like the look of the 180 over the 707 but I don't know much about it other than the pub spec.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Personally the HT-RC180 as its got a bit more power and offers network functionality including support for Pandora and Rhapsody


----------



## Reese (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Interesting....both have equal power ratings (100 vs. 110) and almost identical video and audio processing but the 180 weights nearly 40 lbs compared to the 707s 28 lbs. Guess the 707 went on a diet...:sneeky: 

We can't judge something by weight alone but it is interesting to see the difference. 

Sorry for my ignorance but this article slammed the 180 for lack of multi-analog inputs...not sure what exactly they are talking about.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/product-reviews/home-audio-reviews/receivers-separates-amps-reviews/onkyo-ht-rc180-review/


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*



Reese said:


> Interesting....both have equal power ratings (100 vs. 110) and almost identical video and audio processing but the 180 weights nearly 40 lbs compared to the 707s 28 lbs. Guess the 707 went on a diet. We can't judge something by weight alone but it is interesting to see the difference.


It looks like Onkyo 180 went with a larger power supply and thats a huge difference it means that the 180 should be able to drive all channels at close to it rated output. The 707 can only do about 70watts all channels driven.
Not having multi channel analog inputs is not a big deal anymore as the 180 has HDMI inputs and decodes the HD audio thats a far better way to receive the audio. Multi channel inputs was used allot before HDMI and for people who had older receivers without the ability to decode the HD audio from BluRay discs. It is becoming unnecessary.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Hello,
If I could only have one, I would choose preamp outputs over multichannel analog inputs. I really do value having both when choosing an AVR.

If planning on using outboard amplification, the TX-SR707 is an excellent choice as it offers both and THX Certification. The TX-SR706, available for steep discounts, is also an excellent choice as it is quite similar.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*



Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> If I could only have one, I would choose preamp outputs over multichannel analog inputs. I really do value having both when choosing an AVR.
> 
> If planning on using outboard amplification, the TX-SR707 is an excellent choice as it offers both and THX Certification. The TX-SR706, available for steep discounts, is also an excellent choice as it is quite similar.
> ...


The 180 has analog pre outs just no multi channel analog inputs it also is THX Select2 Plus certified so compared to the 706 or the 707 given the heaver weight I think the clear winner is the 180 dont you think?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Hello,
I think if definitely using outboard amplification for all channels, I would go for the 706 or 707. Even if using a 2 channel amplifier, the extra headroom available from not driving the front 2 channels would probably be enough to make me go that way. The difference in weight is 10 pounds. That is a fairly big difference and again I am advocating the 707 only if using outboard amplifiers.

That being said, I really do value having a analog passthrough. To many, this is not an issue. If not planning on using an outboard amplifier from the start, the 180 would be a good call. Especially if not using efficient Speakers and in a large room. Also, you do get Internet Radio with the 180.

It looks like the HT-RC180 is a kissing cousin of the TX-NR807. The weight on both is identical and they look to share the same chassis. I am somewhat surprised that the 180 does not offer multichannel analog inputs.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*



Jungle Jack said:


> I am somewhat surprised that the 180 does not offer multichannel analog inputs.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I think its their way of keeping some of the cost down. I know some are still stuck on having them but as has been mentioned before in other posts even the manufacturers of BluRay players are being pressured into not having analog outputs.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Hello,
The Analog Sunset is happening. From what I have read, the video side of the equation is what is going to be especially clamped down. This all stems from the HDMI Final Adopter Agreement. 

A year from now, certain Blu Ray Discs will be restricted from outputting more than 480 lines of resolution from the Component Outputs. This will be on a disc to disc basis.

In 2014, Blu Ray Players will no longer be made with any video outputs other than HDMI. I have not read anything about the audio outputs being omitted.

Again, most do not have the need or want for analog inputs. I actually use them currently only with a CD Player and if I did not have large speakers, it would not be worthwhile as the subwoofer is defeated. 

I have just read the Final Adopter Agreement and analog audio seems to be permitted: "E-16 
AACS Adopter Agreement 
Revised: June 5, 2009 
Exhibit E – Compliance Rules 

2.2 Analog Outputs. A Licensed Player shall not pass, or direct to be passed Decrypted 
AACS Content to an analog output except: 

2.2.1 An analog output of audio, or of the audio portions of other forms of 
Decrypted AACS Content; 

Cheers,
JJ


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Jack, as always you are a wealth of good information:T


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Hello,
I am glad we have been discussing this as prior to reading the actual agreement, I was not completely clear about analog audio outputs being offered. While, everything that I had read pointed to the video being restricted, I definitely was not sure.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Reese (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

95% of all my music is either on my laptop or ipod. Does the networking flexibility allow for digital playback of music from my computer? (opposed to the LR splitter from headphone jack...analog)

Also, the Rhapsody and other audio/video streaming feature...I assume this is only avail through liscensed providers and not just any streaming website?

I obviously have a lot to learn...:scratch:


----------



## Reese (Jan 12, 2010)

*Re: AV Receiver - HDMI???*

Am I on the right track? 

Looks like at least one of the streaming providers is free....vTuner and Rhapsody may also have a free version. The others (Sirus, Pandora) require a subscription. 

Networking: 
I'll need to run an ethernet cable from my router (FIOS, fiber optic) to the receiver location. Although the Onkyo will access audio files it cannot play directly from iTunes library. According to one site is says that Onkyo requires DLNA compliance and iTunes is not. 

If I'm not missing any glaring features, functions or short comings, I think I'll pull the trigger on the 180. 

Thanks for all your help!


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Have a look at this thread on the specs for the Onkyo amps...

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...nel-v-surround-receivers-official-thread.html


----------



## selden (Nov 15, 2009)

No analog connections at all means that they'll be preventing sales to most people (those who barely understand how to use red/white/yellow connections). There's no way the average family is going to upgrade their "perfectly good" TV just to use a Blu-ray player. Sales to hifi enthusiasts probably won't be affected much, but they're a relatively small fraction of the general population.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

selden said:


> No analog connections at all means that they'll be preventing sales to most people (those who barely understand how to use red/white/yellow connections). There's no way the average family is going to upgrade their "perfectly good" TV just to use a Blu-ray player. Sales to hifi enthusiasts probably won't be affected much, but they're a relatively small fraction of the general population.


Thats like saying no one is going to upgrade there computer because they switched to using USB and are using better faster processors, HDMI is simplifying how things connect and IS the best way even the cheapest dvd players are now including a HDMI out. If you watch movies and TV allot you will eventually upgrade. Analog TV as we know it is gone so many people who still have there old CRT tvs will eventually be forced to upgrade.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The fact is HDTV has been out for over 10 years. While some are still using their analog TV's, these sets will not last forever and anything purchased now will be compliant.

I am not a fan of the Final Adopter Agreement and all it is doing is making it more inconvenient for those who legally purchase their media to use it as widespread pirating is still achievable from programs like AnyDVD HD.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Reese (Jan 12, 2010)

Ordered the 180...should have it in a few days.

I'm glad I asked the original question regarding buying a high end legacy reciever vs. a new model. I soon realized that the RC180 at $628 was a much better bargain than say $500 for a high end legacy model...at least in my case.

Thanks again.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Congratulations. You truly got a quality AVR that you give you years of listening pleasure. I really think you made a proactive step by purchasing a current AVR rather than a pre HDMI model.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Reese (Jan 12, 2010)

My 180 should arrive tomorrow.

Not sure how much of a problem or not this is but should I go ahead and update the firmware or just leave well enough alone. My concern or fear is that I have read a few reviews that comment on what can happen when the update doesn't take...including having to shipping the reciever back to Onkyo. I have a feeling ya'll might tell to do it now and find out rather than later, but I thought I would ask.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/product-reviews/home-audio-reviews/receivers-separates-amps-reviews/onkyo-ht-rc180-review/


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Can you not make sure that the dealer does the upgrade before it ships, if it does not have it already pre-loaded ?


----------



## Reese (Jan 12, 2010)

The firmware are just updates to features and functions that are already in the system. I'm probably making a bigger deal of this than is necessary. Guess I was wondering if anyone else had an issue with this.


----------



## grafixfreak (Feb 12, 2010)

I ordered an 180 recently. I was amazed at the size of the box and the weight. Im looking forward to hooking it up. I might have a problem finding a place for it because Im not sure my current audio cabinet is deep enough to house the receiver.


----------

