# Recommendations for a HT setup for $2-$4k?



## saliv1215 (Sep 3, 2012)

Hey Guys,

I just had my dream TV delivered – the Panasonic 65” VT50. My next step is to build my home theater system around it. I have a Denon AVR-487 from years ago which came with a receiver, DVD player, sub and speakers. The receiver is now outdated – it has only 2 HDMI inputs. I've slowly gotten familiar with the speaker brands and am feeling over whelmed by the choice that's out there. 

I live in an apartment where my living area is 15x13. I was looking to see what you guys could recommend for a really impressive and immersive sound experience given my room dimensions. A good pair of floor standing speakers would be my preference. Do I need a 5.1 or a 7.1 setup? Do I need an extra sub? What would you all recommend? The use is going to be primarily for movies, video gaming and some music listening. 


This weekend, I auditioned Paradigm's monitor 9 series, Totem Hawk, Definitive audio, martin logan ESL speakers, and B&W. I found the paradigm series to be really fantastic in picking up nuances during the opening scenes of The Dark Knight. I liked the Totem Hawk for its musical ability. B&W didn't really impress me much during the demonstration. What would you guys do in my situation? I do have my eyes set on a Denon AVR-2312ci but if I'm going to be going a bit extra on the speakers, maybe I should consider a marantz receiver as it has outs for a pre-amp? I'm not sure. Thank you for taking the time to read.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

saliv1215 said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I just had my dream TV delivered – the Panasonic 65” VT50. My next step is to build my home theater system around it. I have a Denon AVR-487 from years ago which came with a receiver, DVD player, sub and speakers. The receiver is now outdated – it has only 2 HDMI inputs. I've slowly gotten familiar with the speaker brands and am feeling over whelmed by the choice that's out there.
> 
> ...


Hello,
A dream delivered indeed. I adore my 60GT50 and the 65VT50 is that much more amazing. Before recommending an AVR/Amplifier, it is best to decide on Speakers first. You are most certainly on the right path by going to audition some excellent ones. 

I say this as Speakers are far more important and is where I believe the lions share of a budget should be spent. I would keep on auditioning until you find the Speakers that make you the happiest and we will be here for any help you might want or need. I would also listen to Focal and Dynaudio Speakers.
Cheers,
JJ


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## DrDyna (Jul 21, 2011)

Pre-outs are a good thing to have if you ever plan on using external amplifiers. If you are satisfied with the amplifier that's built into the receiver you probably don't need to worry about pre-outs. As far as speakers go, you've done the right thing, it's probably best to audition the ones you are planning on using and get the ones that you enjoy the most.

I would probably recommend 7.1 if the system is going to be primarily for movies, which allows you to take advantage of the current formats (DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD). If you enjoy the Paradigm speakers, look into getting a full set of 7 from the same series so their tonality and performance is similar across all of the speakers. Pair it with a couple of good subs. Subs can be tricky to audition in a store, if possible, see if you can arrange an audition in your home.


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## saliv1215 (Sep 3, 2012)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> A dream delivered indeed. I adore my 60GT50 and the 65VT50 is that much more amazing. Before recommending an AVR/Amplifier, it is best to decide on Speakers first. You are most certainly on the right path by going to audition some excellent ones.
> 
> I say this as Speakers are far more important and is where I believe the lions share of a budget should be spent. I would keep on auditioning until you find the Speakers that make you the happiest and we will be here for any help you might want or need. I would also listen to Focal and Dynaudio Speakers.
> ...


Thank you JJ. I was under the impression that Focal and Dynaudio were mostly for music. I have an excel spreadsheet where I've listed most of the speaker brands and I'm trying to check them off one by one. I really like the Anthony Gallo speakers for their looks. I hear great things about Aperion, Axiom, Salk and Ascend. It is quite a daunting yet exciting prospect.


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## saliv1215 (Sep 3, 2012)

DrDyna said:


> Pre-outs are a good thing to have if you ever plan on using external amplifiers. If you are satisfied with the amplifier that's built into the receiver you probably don't need to worry about pre-outs. As far as speakers go, you've done the right thing, it's probably best to audition the ones you are planning on using and get the ones that you enjoy the most.
> 
> I would probably recommend 7.1 if the system is going to be primarily for movies, which allows you to take advantage of the current formats (DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD). If you enjoy the Paradigm speakers, look into getting a full set of 7 from the same series so their tonality and performance is similar across all of the speakers. Pair it with a couple of good subs. Subs can be tricky to audition in a store, if possible, see if you can arrange an audition in your home.


Will having a 7.1 system with 2 subs be overkill for an apartment?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

saliv1215 said:


> Thank you JJ. I was under the impression that Focal and Dynaudio were mostly for music. I have an excel spreadsheet where I've listed most of the speaker brands and I'm trying to check them off one by one. I really like the Anthony Gallo speakers for their looks. I hear great things about Aperion, Axiom, Salk and Ascend. It is quite a daunting yet exciting prospect.


Focal and Dynaudio are both quite accurate which makes them excellent for both. In addition, Martin Logan, B&W, Totem are certainly along the same lines as the two. Focal's Inverted Dome Tweeter sounds fantastic with HT.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

saliv1215 said:


> Will having a 7.1 system with 2 subs be overkill for an apartment?


For your neighbors perhaps, but not for you...


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## saliv1215 (Sep 3, 2012)

Jungle Jack said:


> Focal and Dynaudio are both quite accurate which makes them excellent for both. In addition, Martin Logan, B&W, Totem are certainly along the same lines as the two. Focal's Inverted Dome Tweeter sounds fantastic with HT.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Hi JJ, 

What model/product line up of Focal do you recommend that would be in my price range?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The Chorus would be the line that would come closest to meeting your budget. I would not get a subwoofer from Focal or any of the brands you have auditioned and instead go with SVS or HSU Research.
Cheers,
J


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

I had my own speaker journey a few months ago! :bigsmile:

I recommend trying to get a listen to the PSB and Salk speakers as well. If you would like, you can follow the link in my sig to my speaker thread. There is a link to a google doc in the first post listing all the speaker I listened to and what my impressions of them were.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
My favorite 2 most insane Speaker bargain currently offered are the Klipsch Icon WF-35 for $700 a pair ($1500 MSRP) and the PSB GT1's which likewise cost $700 a pair and retail for $2000 a pair. In both cases, I would use them for both Mains and Surrounds. For over a decade I have used either the identical or one model below speakers for Surrounds to excellent effect.
Here is the link for the Klipschs:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882780081
And the PSB's:https://dmc-electronics.com/Default.htm

Granted, this started out due to my love of Multichannel SACD's. It was not until HDMI 1.2 that you could use a digital connection. (Denon Link being the exception, but this was only offered at first on both Denon flagship AVR and DVD Players) However, I think it sounds amazing with Movies when using matching Mains and Surrounds. I only wish I could use a Floorstanding Speaker for a Center Channel, but do not use a Front Projector & Screen.
Cheers,
JJ


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

saliv1215 said:


> What model/product line up of Focal do you recommend that would be in my price range?


Yes Focal, would also be good for home theater > Plus, I want the music
in the movies, to sound good also.
Some items to look at >
http://www.musicdirect.com/search.aspx?searchterm=focal

As was stated earlier, skip their subs.


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## saliv1215 (Sep 3, 2012)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> My favorite 2 most insane Speaker bargain currently offered are the Klipsch Icon WF-35 for $700 a pair ($1500 MSRP) and the PSB GT1's which likewise cost $700 a pair and retail for $2000 a pair. In both cases, I would use them for both Mains and Surrounds. For over a decade I have used either the identical or one model below speakers for Surrounds to excellent effect.
> 
> 
> ...


Hey JJ, 

I've read a lot on how people can't stand the horn tweeter and how it sounds like someone speaking through a copper tube. I haven't listened to any Klipsch yet but I intend to. I also plan to demo the focals this friday


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## saliv1215 (Sep 3, 2012)

ALMFamily said:


> I had my own speaker journey a few months ago! :bigsmile:
> 
> I recommend trying to get a listen to the PSB and Salk speakers as well. If you would like, you can follow the link in my sig to my speaker thread. There is a link to a google doc in the first post listing all the speaker I listened to and what my impressions of them were.


Hi ALMF; I am in the process of reading your selection process and all i can say is WOW! Its almost like dating  What was the demo CD you used in the process?


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## cdguy (Sep 5, 2012)

$2-4K is a great amount to be able to spend, here is what I think you will be impressed with...

I would go with 5.1, I prefer it to 7.1 for a lot of reasons... but thats not what this thread is about so, heres what I would buy {and do own}...

Emotiva UMC-1 $500
Emotiva XPA-5 $900 {bstock will save you $100 here}
HSU VTF-2 Sub $615 {can buy B stock for about $75 less}
Ascend 2-CMT340SE's {front channels, you can add tower bases for $140 shipped they are on sale $40 off}
1-CMT340C Center channel
2-HTM200SE Surrounds All 5 speakers cost around $1150 {save about $125 if you get b stock}
then you will need cables, Tartan is a good choice you will spend around $75. I would get a test disk and an spl meter to {another $30}, mounts can cost another $50, then an audio rack can be around $150....

So for around $3200 you will have an awesome system, I have listened to so many speakers, amps, avr's ect, and I came up with this setup to be by far the best choice for the money... For movie you will be in awe of the realistic clarity that swallows you in. AND MUSIC, if you like it loud, mellow, and crystal clear you will be impressed... 

You can make some changes to make it your own, some people like dipolar surrounds {I prefer the 200's because they match the 340s perfectly, are small, and very accurate...} 

For the sub, I favor HSU, they are a great value, you can double their cost and it will still be hard to find one better, the VTF2 is a beast, low tight accurate and it melts with almost every set of fronts I tried with it {for some reason a set of Energy towers I tried just didnt sound good with the HSU} --{you have a smaller room, you can go with a smaller sub and be happy too something like the STF1 or 2 and save a few hundred...

Some guys may say the separate components are a waste of money and you can get an AVR to do it all, but I dont think you will find a 1000watt {all channels driven, a real 1K watts} AVR for $1400... 
And Out of all the speakers I have heard, nothing under $3000 for a 5ch set comes close to the ascends... I even listened to the Sierras {actually try'ed them with the 30 day trial as well as the 170's} and I kept the 340's and 200's... I also tryed emotivas speakers {nice but not as nice as the 340's}... 

A lot of Bang for your Buck, if your on the east coast come on by and listen to minee, you will be ordering components on your smart phone before you leave my house... Or you can use the 30 day trial , just lose shipping costs if you dont like any of it...

I would put this system up against anything that costs double. And I feel I try'ed a lot of them.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

saliv1215 said:


> Hi ALMF; I am in the process of reading your selection process and all i can say is WOW! Its almost like dating  What was the demo CD you used in the process?


I made one of my own - I selected a number of songs I was familiar with and added a few from suggestions on that thread. I ended up with 11 songs IIRC. Now, I did not always listen to the whole track when auditioning, but it gave me a pretty wide range to choose from when I auditioned.


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## saliv1215 (Sep 3, 2012)

cdguy said:


> $2-4K is a great amount to be able to spend, here is what I think you will be impressed with...
> 
> I would go with 5.1, I prefer it to 7.1 for a lot of reasons... but thats not what this thread is about so, heres what I would buy {and do own}...
> 
> ...


Hey cdguy, Love your recommendations. I have a few questions:
1. With the Emotiva XPA-5, won't i be limiting myself to 5 channels, if i decide to go 7.1 in the future?
2. The cost of the speakers alone are less than the amp and the reciever. Do you think that the amps make the difference and you can get by with not so expensive speakers? 
3. Do I need 2 subs? whats the upgrade difference betwene the VTF-2 and VTF-3? Is HSU a better sub option than Epik or SVS? I know everyone swears by either of the 3 brands and since I won't be able to listen to them, what would be a good deciding factor? 

Thanks for the offer to check your system out, unfortunately I live in Texas - so I'm a bit ways out. Where in the east coast are you at?


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

saliv1215 said:


> Hey cdguy, Love your recommendations. I have a few questions:
> 1. With the Emotiva XPA-5, won't i be limiting myself to 5 channels, if i decide to go 7.1 in the future?
> 2. The cost of the speakers alone are less than the amp and the reciever. Do you think that the amps make the difference and you can get by with not so expensive speakers?
> 3. Do I need 2 subs? whats the upgrade difference betwene the VTF-2 and VTF-3? Is HSU a better sub option than Epik or SVS? I know everyone swears by either of the 3 brands and since I won't be able to listen to them, what would be a good deciding factor?
> ...


You would not be limiting yourself with the XPA-5. You can have the AVR drive 2 speakers - likely a set of the surrounds - and get pretty much what the specs show for power output.

A good rule of thumb - spend 2/3 of your budget on speakers. While the AVR is the brain, the speakers are the soul. The amp is there to make sure you have enough headroom - it does not drastically affect sound quality per se.

You can never have too many subs! :devil: Seriuously though, having multiple subs can help control room modes and provide a more seamless soundstage. IMO, you can't go wrong with HSU or SVS. I would also look at the new PSA offerings.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

saliv1215 said:


> Hey JJ,
> 
> I've read a lot on how people can't stand the horn tweeter and how it sounds like someone speaking through a copper tube. I haven't listened to any Klipsch yet but I intend to. I also plan to demo the focals this friday


Hello,
After having the opportunity to listen to a pair of Klipsch Heritage K-Horns in Acoustically Optimized Room that included treatments well into the mid five figures and this price does not include the actual Room Construction which sames many a Professional Studio and all I can say is my views have certainly been nuanced.

I have long recommended Horn Loaded Designs when HT is the be all and end all. Their output and unbelievable efficiency has done a great service to folks with budgets like yours in being able to easily attain Reference Level.
I cannot applaud this enough. 

I think Room Treatments can do some fantastic things to Klipschs. HSU's. and other Horn Loaded Designs. The the biggest Horn of them all the Avant Garde Trio is something which must be experienced. One of the most impressive audio experiences in my life and I have been blessed to have experienced many amazing setups.
Cheers,
JJ


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## cdguy (Sep 5, 2012)

saliv1215 said:


> Hey cdguy, Love your recommendations. I have a few questions:
> 1. With the Emotiva XPA-5, won't i be limiting myself to 5 channels, if i decide to go 7.1 in the future?
> 2. The cost of the speakers alone are less than the amp and the reciever. Do you think that the amps make the difference and you can get by with not so expensive speakers?
> 3. Do I need 2 subs? whats the upgrade difference betwene the VTF-2 and VTF-3? Is HSU a better sub option than Epik or SVS? I know everyone swears by either of the 3 brands and since I won't be able to listen to them, what would be a good deciding factor?
> ...


Yah Texas is a ways from here, I am on the borders of Massachusets, Connecticut, and Rhode Island. When I first received my 340se's I was asked if a local guy could swing by and hear them, I said sure, so they gave me his number, and I called and left him a message, when he called back I happened to be having a cookout, so I invited him over, he showed up with his wife, they were probably around 50 years old... After hearing my system he was sold, he couldnt believe the sound... And he told me, he read a bunch of Vs's reviews like 340se's vs Klipsch 52ii's ect, and they made it sound like a close call, he said no one was giving these speakers the credit they deserve.. And I felt the same way the first time I heard them... I have a set of CF50's {Energy} and they are nice speakers, they cost about $425 each, but I have to admit if you let me hear them and the 340's blindfolded I would think the Ascends cost twice what the cf50's cost, not the other way around, and for the money the cf50's are a good tower... But When I heard the 340's I was kind of like " WHY DIDNT ANYONE TELL ME, WHAT I WAS MISSING ?" How are we even having this conversation, sure the boxes arent great, but when you fire them up and see how they reproduce that elusive midrange field you will forget all about the appearances {which arent terrible, just not as nice as other speakers that sound like this}, I think they decided to go with the higher end components instead of spending the money on the enclosure... I demoed the Sierras and they have a grade A enclosure, honestly they are beautifully put together, but I like the 340's sound so much better...

The Ascends use Norway made SEAS tweeters {you dont find these in $275 speakers!}, and their drivers {I have had them out and in my hand} just scream HIGH END... Heres a review, not one of them love story ones, pretty harsh if you ask me, but hes just honest... http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/reviews/aa2007-04.pdf

1-You would'nt be limiting yourself,the umc1 has 7.1 outputs, so you can add a 2 channel amp later, UPA200 125w X2... But live with the 5.1 for a while, to me it sounds better for movies... 

I know people like the AVR with built in amps for the cost, but to me the separate components are much better, and I love Emotiva stuff, their staff is awesome with support, their amps sound really good, it all holds up very well to the test of time, and go ahead and check out ebay and the classified forums, XPA5's sell for $700 2 years old and 2 years ago thats what they cost... Also the warranty is pretty solid.. Plus very expandable, and doesnt get out dated as fast, sure they may make a new unit, but the old ones are still worth 90% of what you pay.... Buy a Denon AVR For $600 and let me know what you get for it in 3 years if you want to upgrade???

2- OK, in my honest opinion the Ascends are easily worth double what they cost, and this setup sounds so good you will be floored, the only thing that isnt great is the enclosures, but they are still an 8 out of 10, the sound being an 11 makes up for it... I know the rule of thumb is 2/3 of your budget on speakers, but I like to make my own rules, if the 340's didnt exist than yes maybe you need to spend more, but they do so your all set... I swear by the 340's, they have this LOUD, Clean, Mello sound that you can fall asleep to running them at 92db 15 feet from your head... And they aren't power hungry so you will have tons of headroom, they are mildly efficient... Dont get too hung up on what stuff costs in relation to other items, because there is no uniform value/cost structure... Heres an example, I needed kitchen cabinets, I call a well known custom cabinet maker, he charged me $8000 to hand make my cabinets and install them, they came amazing. Around the same time my brother in law had a larger {we wont name names} co. come out and change his cabinets, it cost him much more {ratio wise, his kitchen is half the size of mine and it cost him about $1500 more}, and the quality is night and day, after 5 months he already had to replace some of his soft shut rails, and his lazy sue door rubs the adjacent door when ever you open it... Mine are like a dream, I did have one problem with a draw pull handle, Im not sure why but the screw was loose and I tightened it too much and snapped it, he brought me a new one and threw it in, that day... So I got a better product, better support for a better price.. I made the decision to go with him because others told me he was amazing, and I did a little home work, the same as you are doing now..

3- You dont need two subs, I prefer the VTF2, and I heard the 3 but I want to say its not $100 better than the vtf2, I believe they are both available in b stock... I prefer the HSU products, over all other brands because they have something the others are missing, its this PLUMP low tone that feels more realistic in HT, and for music the 340se's dont even need a sub {unless hiphop is being played}, I use my sub with mine and it melts together with the ascends perfectly, I have owned SVS subs and they are nice, but the vtf2 is worth twice its price...

Here is how I see it,you have the perfect budget to get this done, with the separate components in 10 years if you blow an amp, you can just buy a new amp or have it fixed {ive seen pleanty of blown out avr's that "arent worth fixing" amps are usually always worth fixing..., or if in 5 years a new way to connect to sources comes out that is better than hdmi you can just buy a new preamp, and use your amps, you dont think the 5.1 has enough separation in the rear than you can buy a 2 channel amp and add a couple 200's, or buy a big 2 channel amp and run the fronts with it using the xpa5 for the center and surrounds... The options are all there for you to choose.. But honestly the amount of sound you will have with the 1000 watt amp and Ascend speakers is going to be overwhelming. It will easily fill a room twice the size of yours. 

One more thing to keep in mind is the customer service, Emotiva, Ascend, and HSU have great people, I met the Emotiva staff a couple times, I have talked to Ascends tech support and customer service reps multiple times, they are awesome... AND HSU, just simply the nicest people to deal with...

So dont think of it as spending very little on the speakers, because the ascends should cost a lot more... If I could think of a speaker better for even double the price I would tell you... I will put this setup against any AVR powered setup twice its price... I cant think of anything I would want for under $6000 instead of this..


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## saliv1215 (Sep 3, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback cdguy. I am definitely going to give Ascend a try. How big is your room where your setup is at? What movies have you run on it that literally made your jaw drop, sound-wise?


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## saliv1215 (Sep 3, 2012)

Hey JJ, 

you have me all thinking about other brands now. I thought I had my eyes on focal chorus and now I am tempted to try out Klipsch as well as what cdguy suggested, the ascends. The more I try to narrow down my choices, the wider my selection gets. How did you guys ever find the system you loved? Must have been quite the ordeal.


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

saliv1215 said:


> I thought I had my eyes on focal chorus and now I am tempted to try out Klipsch as well as what cdguy suggested, the ascends. The more I try to narrow down my choices, the wider my selection gets. How did you guys ever find the system you loved? Must have been quite the ordeal.


Ok then, add the JBL LS series speakers to your list
http://www.jblsynthesis.com/downloa...34484125968316859_brochure_JBL_LS_English.pdf


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

saliv1215 said:


> Hey JJ,
> 
> you have me all thinking about other brands now. I thought I had my eyes on focal chorus and now I am tempted to try out Klipsch as well as what cdguy suggested, the ascends. The more I try to narrow down my choices, the wider my selection gets. How did you guys ever find the system you loved? Must have been quite the ordeal.


Listening to fantastic Speakers has never felt like an ordeal. For a long time, I would switch out Speaker Systems around every 2 years. Do not torture yourself about this and think about it as the beginning of a very fun experience. 

I am a huge advocate of purchasing Speakers that are a great deal as you can sell them down the line and get back most of your money. This is how I was able to constantly upgrade. I am so happy with ML Electrostats that I have used them longer than any other 5.2 array ever.

I personally do prefer Focals over Klipschs, but it is just because Focals Inverted Dome Tweeter provides the best highs of any Box Speaker I have ever heard by a large margin. This is decidedly subjective, but I will say that many cost no object Speaker Companies like Wilson Audio use Tweeters Made by Focal.
Cheers,
JJ


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## cdguy (Sep 5, 2012)

saliv1215 said:


> Thanks for the feedback cdguy. I am definitely going to give Ascend a try. How big is your room where your setup is at? What movies have you run on it that literally made your jaw drop, sound-wise?


My room is 26X33X10, tray ceiling sunken floor.. 5 triangle acoustic panels behind the couch to absorb the rear firing fronts, and 2 rectangles on each side wall for the surrounds...

I have to say when I want to show the system off to someone I put the fight scene from Flyboys on { it kind of makes you anxious when you watch it, you get excitable, its so real}, BUT believe it or not, you are probably going to laugh, when you read this, But when I noticed the systems potential I was watching Capote In Cold Blood... There isnt many loud scenes, the beginning the girl screams, the shots, ect, but where you notice it most, is the walking on the floors, sounds like someone is walking around my house, and the low volume soft spoken speech throughout the movie, even a good system makes you struggle to hear everything no matter the volume because of the background, but with this, you could close your eyes and picture him sitting in the recliner across from you talking... That movie is a hidden HT dream... If you know what to look for... And of course try to watch it with tv speakers first...


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