# Twice Blessed



## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Yes indeed, I have been twice blessed on Sunday, I got to meet with Lumens' Harley as well as...tada....the great Lumen himself.
Lumen was kind enough to c'mon down to my most humble home and home theater for some discussions and a couple hours of listening to my goodies as well as some tasty tunes he brought along that I did not have.
We went through everything from electronic music to classical and on occasion hit on some high points. 

For once, I felt that my system was hitting on all cylinders, mainly because I had not shut the electronics off for a week fearing that on the day he arrived, it would break the minute I hit the power button. Well it did not break thank goodness. I think more often than not, when friends get together for a good listen, something goes wrong, it just seems to be an unspoken law. 

We dealt somewhat deeply into sound-staging, sub integration and some room improvements. We also discussed a bit of what I considered to be a separation of the sound stage from the sound space. I tend to think of a sound space to be the overall sound of what is happening during any given recording while the sound stage is the discrete musical event within the sound space. For example, when we go to a rock concert say, we here sounds all around us not just in front of us...or to the side of us should we not have great seats. This may be even more clear if we consider an orchestral performance in that the orchestra is laid out in front of us (Sound stage) while the theater in which we experience the concert is the actual sound space. The people walking in the aisles of coughing, shuffling or even reverb caused by the hall. The reason I mention this is that my system is becoming more revealing as I make a few changes here and there.

In addition, I have thrown in some new cabling that makes a substantive difference, I know, I know....but to me it does and I should like to discuss this as well. I do have some extra lengths of this speaker cable should one of our regulars wish to give it a try....to be returned of course  But the findings you come up with must be honest, even if it does not appear similar to my findings. 

Anyone into a discussion of any of the above.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Bless you both.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

willis7469 said:


> Bless you both.


Aww I feel all gushy now, thank you Willis.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)




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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

willis7469 said:


>


When ya coming down Willis ?? Would love to meet you.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Awww gawwwrsh, thanks for the kind words, Jack; but you're embarrassing me! :R 
I have yet to earn the level of respect garnered by the true "greats" of HTS. Maybe someday I'll feel worthy.

Anyway, on with the commentary. I arrived with a preconceived notion of how horn-load speakers would sound: shrill, bright, and in other words, nerve-wracking. The stereotypical love-hate relationship. I was more than pleasantly surprised. The system could be cleanly driven louder than I could comfortably stand. I detected only a hint of upper-frequency hardening/glare at the extreme levels reached. Whether due to amplifier clipping or speaker stress I cannot say, but it was slight. The immediacy and slam, coupled with seemingly crystal clarity, infused and surprised me at every transient turn and launched wave of bass. I came away from the listening session with a distinct fondness for Jack's speakers, and would consider including a pair in one of my own systems as a result.

Jack's Klipsch brand speakers imaged well, but I had trouble gauging to what extent they could play the pinpoint game. That's not to say they lacked the ability, just that they were set up to favor soundstage and "soundspace" (as Jack coins the phrase). Whether or not "soundspace" and "ambience" are interchangeable may be revealed as this thread unfolds. All I can say at this point is that I was immersed (not just "felt immersed) in sound. I incredulously checked several times to make sure only the mains+subs were active. If the source material allowed, sounds originated from beyond the confines of the room. And before anyone gets the idea I'm a "sound" junkie, such seemingly fleeting parlor tricks stayed out of the way of the music; instead complimenting it in a way which tended to relax the mind and spirit.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Thank You Lumen, I really tend to agree with you and am glad you were willing to speak to the system and room. When I originally bought the things the did cause me some issues in way of being somewhat harsh on the top end. Crossover and speaker replacements brought that broken ice top end substantially. I am like you, I am not sure what the cause is, but I think it is the speaker proper coupled with a room that has not been properly treated. Listening at 80-85db levels and I am not bothered at all by a brittle top end. 

Thanks for your mention of imaging and I again tend to agree, there is good imaging, particularly in the middle but I have not really set them up for the perfection we often seek. I set up as much for sonics as for imaging. Overall, they do well though. 

I am glad you liked the bass slam as that has been the hardest to do, combine the speakers and subs to sound as one. Hard to tell there is a sub...or two. The REL rocks the house and the Velodyne adds a bit of roundness to the sound. 

There were a couple times wherein you did zone completely out and were able to flow with the music, that made me smile.

Again thanks for your thoughts.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

Savjac said:


> In addition, I have thrown in some new cabling that makes a substantive difference, I know, I know....but to me it does and I should like to discuss this as well. I do have some extra lengths of this speaker cable should one of our regulars wish to give it a try....to be returned of course  But the findings you come up with must be honest, even if it does not appear similar to my findings.


What cabling?


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Anti cable from.....AntiCable.

It appears to be a form of magnet wire that remains coated in the red dialectric, twisted very nicely and finished with your choice of banana or spades. They make several versions of these cables and I am presently using the classic series interconnects and the Level 3 Reference Series Speaker Wires finished with the Banana connections. 

I bought into these cables by starting with the interconnects as they were on sale and I so loved what they did to the sound that I went back and ordered a set of the regular speaker cables. After break in the speaker cables provided the same magic that the interconnects did, only a bit more subtly. Then I had to go for the reference Level 3 speaker cables, if two twisted wires (12 gauge) sound good, it must be that 4 twisted wires (9 Gauge) must be better. Well again after a substantial break in, they rocked my world. 
We did not lift a thousand veils or anything, but they did allow the bottom end to literally burst forth from the speakers and the midrange became almost palpable. The top end was, like the rest of the sonic spectrum, found to be a bit sweeter while enhancing the soundstage to where, on good recordings, you can almost reach out and touch someone. Norah Jones is a good tester for this as is Goldie Hawn singing Hard Days Night on the In My LIfe CD. 

Is this all kinda crazy ? Yes, but I and a few others I know, can testify to how good these relatively inexpensive cables actually perform. When I get a few more sheckles I will head for the next level in way of interconnects. I will say that if you plug and unplug any of the interconnects in the level one series, go for the better ends as they are quite cheap and after a few unpluggings, they just don't hang as well. I changed out my ends rather quickly.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> When I originally bought the things the did cause me some issues in way of being somewhat harsh on the top end. Crossover and speaker replacements brought that broken ice top end substantially. I am like you, I am not sure what the cause is, but I think it is the speaker proper coupled with a room that has not been properly treated. Listening at 80-85db levels and I am not bothered at all by a brittle top end.


I may have been unclear. 
Your Klipsch KLF-10's do not sound "harsh" or "brittle" to me. I remember only pleasing HF content _with comfortable playback levels_. YMMV. 
Lacking an audition prior to your speaker mods, I'm unqualified to comment on perceived improvements. lddude:



Savjac said:


> ...there was very good imaging, particularly in the middle but I have not really set them up for the perfection we often seek.


Stereo imaging was precise when the source material allowed. The center image was _rock solid_ and seemed to emanate from the center channel. 
I wanted to put my ear up to it for confirmation, but Jack threatened to play Black Sabbath at 78 speed if I left the sweet spot. addle:



Savjac said:


> I set up as much for sonics as for imaging. Overall, they do well though.


I consider imaging to be a subset of sonics, Jack, so am unsure what you mean. FWIW, the sweet spot was generous in size and relaxing to occupy. The stage stretched significantly beyond the room's side walls, slightly behind the plane intersecting the backs of the speakers, and very close to the ceiling. Instruments and vocalists seemed to retain realistic sizes. The conventional head-shift test uncovered a few HF/MF aberrations, but like the doctor says: "If it hurts when you move it, then don't move it!" :rofl2:



Savjac said:


> I am glad you liked the bass slam as that has been the hardest to do, combine the speakers and subs to sound as one. Hard to tell there is a sub...or two. The REL rocks the house and the Velodyne adds a bit of roundness to the sound.


I'll tote my REW measurement gear down there next time for some acoustic evaluation. I'm far from an expert with either acoustics or REW, but have applied them with great success in taming my room's low-F behaviour. At minimum we'll get an idea whether there are further improvements to be had. I recommend following-up on your intentions to build DIY acoustic panels, and using the mirror or string methods to identify 1st reflection points. Some of those sharp images don't belong, IMHO, and should be tamed. I suspect the low, vaulted ceiling is much to blame; but that's just my guess. Since I have yet to gain expertise identifying time domain issues (reflection, arrival, RT60, etc.), REW won't be much help. :nerd:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

DqMcClain said:


> What cabling?


Why... the one's you can't hear, of course! :sneeky:

Hi, DqMcClain! 
Your posts are informative and refreshing! I like how you include detail and technical content. We've all heard the arguments citing Ohms Law, Skin Effect, Dielectric Constants and influence, etc. What's your take on these issues? (I solemnly pinky promise not to take thread off-topic with rebuttal). TIA :bigsmile:


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Once again Thank You Lumen for the wonderful comments, I am not inclined to brag on my own stuff so much. But you honor me and I am indeed blushing.

The speakers/system does sound very good on most material but there are some discs that just tear up my ears and I did not think it happened on other systems.
The spaciality issues are not so much that the system cant do that, but I have the Dahlquists and the Tang Bands outside the main room and they image much better. 

What might you need in way of testing stuff ? I may have what you need, not sure. Never the less c'mon down I would love to learn how to work REW. 

In reference to the slam the system puts out, I am a firm believer that the punch in music occurs above what most subwoofers would play, say in the 60-120 hz range. The subs will only help fill the bottom end in. That, I believe is why the REL does so well for music, but it blends very well with the speakers to form that punch you in the chest sound.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> The speakers/system does sound very good on most material but there are some discs that just tear up my ears and I did not think it happened on other systems.


Oh indeed it does. I have yet to find a decent rendering of REO Speedwagon's "Roll With The Changes." I used to rock out; now I just want to get out. Age and musical taste may be partially to blame, but my current system portray's enough of what's in recordings to be unpleasant for about 25% of my collection. That's the price you pay for accuracy when moving up the speaker/electronics food chain. And it's an ironic awakening for many a proud owner of new gear which was supposed to fix one problem, only to introduce another. Careful system matching is a balancing act that requires research and planning. A carefully chosen and configured modest system can often beat one that just has money thrown at it. 

One of the guys in my audio club has a system voiced just for Jazz, which generally has high recorded SQ (based on personal auditioning of many - but not statistically significant - albums and artists). His system pulls you into a well-recorded performance and lets you float there seemingly unimpeded by mortal concerns. But spin a compressed rock or pop recording, and _YOW-ZAH_. Totally Unlistenable Earplug City. Yet this does not matter to some, as evidenced by a different member who despite numerous educational attempts, listens to the unabashed screeching with a shrug of his shoulders while wondering why the "better" system sounds so bad.

So the take-away of all this rambling is: you can't get around recording SQ. You can voice your system for jaw-dropping sound with stellar recordings. But then mediocre to poor recordings are exposed, warts and all (the tearing of ears you mentioned). On the other side of the coin, you can voice your system for very good sound with most or all recordings. But then stellar recordings sound comparatively subdued. Of course there are all shades in between, and sometimes the quest for "better" performance only yields different SQ.


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