# $3000 5.1 Speakers + A/V Receiver Challenge



## dusdau (Feb 9, 2013)

Father-in-law asked for advice on 5.1 speakers + A/V receiver for roughly $3000 or less. Specifically asked for sub under $1k, and Hsu VTF-15H immediately came to mind. Which parlayed into the Hsu Hybrid 5.1 speaker system ($1549 plus shipping).

One caveat is he prefers two HDMI outs on receiver and multi-zoning function. The 'other' zone is a gym area, and wants to have a TV + external speakers in there (not factoring those speakers into budget , as their performance isn't too critical, so any decent speaker will prob do).

A/V receiver research lead me to Denon AVR-3311CI, which meets the HDMI outs and multi-zone function criteria. It's retails for $1200, and a refurb can be had for $740.

Some factors to consider:

*Room size fairly large (basement, open floor plan, I'd say 10400 cubic feet total, but more like a modest 3000 for 'listening area')
*He's not interested in 3D at all. I know most receivers will have that feature anyway.


Any other thoughts, opinions, etc? Speakers setups to consider with decent size subwoofer? Comparable receivers?

Thanks, Dustin


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Most zones are mirrors of what is playing on zone 1, so I think having a modest stand alone system in the gym will work better than running the room as a second zone.
Better control of all the gear and the media.
When you start spending the budget in close to $1k chunks it goes quick.
I would carefully consider the subs at the VTF3 level.
Speakers along the lines of Paradigm Monitor 11, or Klipsch RF-82.


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## dusdau (Feb 9, 2013)

chashint said:


> Most zones are mirrors of what is playing on zone 1, so I think having a modest stand alone system in the gym will work better than running the room as a second zone.
> Better control of all the gear and the media.
> When you start spending the budget in close to $1k chunks it goes quick.
> I would carefully consider the subs at the VTF3 level.
> Speakers along the lines of Paradigm Monitor 11, or Klipsch RF-82.


I singled out the 3313 because it has true multi-zone capabilities. I'll check out the Paradigms and Klipsch (I have RB-81 II LCR, and love 'em).


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

dusdau said:


> *Room size fairly large (basement, open floor plan, I'd say 10400 cubic feet total, but more like a modest 3000 for 'listening area')


Unfortunately you're listening area is really 10400 cubic feet, not 3000, because everything within the physical boundaries is what you have to consider. At least as far as the subwoofer is concerned...

That is an absolutely huge amount of space. Sometimes you can get away with having undersized speakers because you can point those directly at the listeners, or buy very efficient ones (like the Klipsch's that have been mentioned). But a subwoofer is a bit different in that regard; it "sees" all of the contiguous space regardless, and will try to fill it. Some might say pointing it at you will help, or even placing it near field, but those solutions aren't really going to solve the physics problem I'm afraid. I think you may end up having some issues trying to accomplish what you want to with only $3000. It would probably cost that much just for the subwoofers alone.


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## dusdau (Feb 9, 2013)

theJman said:


> Unfortunately you're listening area is really 10400 cubic feet, not 3000, because everything within the physical boundaries is what you have to consider. At least as far as the subwoofer is concerned...
> 
> That is an absolutely huge amount of space. Sometimes you can get away with having undersized speakers because you can point those directly at the listeners, or buy very efficient ones (like the Klipsch's that have been mentioned). But a subwoofer is a bit different in that regard; it "sees" all of the contiguous space regardless, and will try to fill it. Some might say pointing it at you will help, or even placing it near field, but those solutions aren't really going to solve the physics problem I'm afraid. I think you may end up having some issues trying to accomplish what you want to with only $3000. It would probably cost that much just for the subwoofers alone.


...forgot there are double doors that can close off unfinished and gym area. Wow, that helps a ton. I estimate now more like 5500 cubic ft.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yes, I agree with the above. The lower frequencies are going to get swallowed up by the entire 10,000cubic ft of space unless you build some sort of wall. Even with 3000 cu Ft your going to need a decent $1500 sub to even get the feel of the low frequencies below 25Hz


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

I ran into the same issue, with mains doing fine and subs severely compromised in our open room. Diy subs can go a long way to helping your budget, otherwise, the budget will need to be increased. With drivers being the primary cost, you may consider a horn sub design if you can tolerate the loss of space/aesthetic factor. Perhaps even have one built by an underemployed (at the moment) carpenter or something? They are large but look to be fairly simple in construction, thanks to a couple great guys here at HTS that have shared their proven designs.


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## dusdau (Feb 9, 2013)

ironglen said:


> I ran into the same issue, with mains doing fine and subs severely compromised in our open room. Diy subs can go a long way to helping your budget, otherwise, the budget will need to be increased. With drivers being the primary cost, you may consider a horn sub design if you can tolerate the loss of space/aesthetic factor. Perhaps even have one built by an underemployed (at the moment) carpenter or something? They are large but look to be fairly simple in construction, thanks to a couple great guys here at HTS that have shared their proven designs.


Those sound really interesting, but sounds like just too much to take on right now. Even if I hired out the woodworking. However...there are two LFE outs. What's your take on getting two of these...

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-kits-1/rs-15-sub-kit.html

Did a DIY Dayton/Morel 3-way several years ago when I had more time and less resposibilities. But the kit above would be a breeze. Not SPL and freq response curves worries me a little.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

dusdau said:


> Those sound really interesting, but sounds like just too much to take on right now. Even if I hired out the woodworking. However...there are two LFE outs. What's your take on getting two of these...
> 
> http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-kits-1/rs-15-sub-kit.html
> 
> Did a DIY Dayton/Morel 3-way several years ago when I had more time and less resposibilities. But the kit above would be a breeze. Not SPL and freq response curves worries me a little.


That's an interesting option - the Dayton RS driver is pretty solid. A pair of those might do the trick, especially if you went with the 500 watt amp option. That's assuming the closed-off space is indeed 5500 cubic feet.

Just an FYI... you can run multiple subs off a single output from your AV receiver, you don't need to have a one-to-one ratio of outputs to subwoofers. All you need to do is add a splitter. Since a subwoofer has it's own amplifier there's no signal degradation by using a Y adapter.


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Erich has done some nice deals. That flat pack would be plenty stout and the Dayton driver is a proven performer. As Jman stated, they might do the trick, especially if you use 500w amps and have a couple corners to help load them a bit.
Not sure if your receiver has good equalization built in. If he has a flat pack minus the amps would be my preference as then you run your amp of choice (possibly used gear) and even equalize them if need be. 

Multiple subs are great, the improvement in sound across the seating positions in-room is amazing: highly recommended at some point.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

$3k sounds like a lot (and it is), but when you start spending it in $800+ chunks it goes really quick.
If you could throw in another $500 you could have the 3311 AVR, VTF-15, and a Klipsch speaker system consisting of RB-81's up front (3 of these or a RC-62) and RB-61's for surrounds.
Since you own the 81's yourself and like them you know if they will work in this space or not.

FWIW my sub is an Outlaw LFM1-EX and it is in the living room of an open floor plan home, it is exposed to at least 10k^ft of volume, and we sit 13 ft away from it.
Granted I am not a bass head and prefer my sub to be well integrated with the speakers. But the sub definitely makes its presence known when it's supposed to. Even after owning it for a year my wife still mentions that it shakes her (she is not being complimentary when she brings this up). 
For a reference price check Sound Distributors and put TV15 in the cart, if you do decide to go with 
Klipsch give the local authorized dealer a chance to make a good deal for you.


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## dusdau (Feb 9, 2013)

ironglen said:


> Erich has done some nice deals. That flat pack would be plenty stout and the Dayton driver is a proven performer. As Jman stated, they might do the trick, especially if you use 500w amps and have a couple corners to help load them a bit.
> Not sure if your receiver has good equalization built in. If he has a flat pack minus the amps would be my preference as then you run your amp of choice (possibly used gear) and even equalize them if need be.
> 
> Multiple subs are great, the improvement in sound across the seating positions in-room is amazing: highly recommended at some point.


Nice to hear. Looks like only expense would be dampening material and paint once I got them. Pre pros have Aud MultiEQ XT. Two of them may be the way to go then. Pretty pumped I stumbled across his site. Only wish they were ported.

Seems like when I did DIY 3 ways I could model woofer with given enclosure. Wonder how that Dayton looks at the 3 cubic feet he has them in? Any ideas?


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Check out the database:

I saw 1.6 and 4 ft³ builds. I'm getting my house ready to sell, so I can't calculate it for you, sorry. It will probably roll off really close to the 4 ft³, if that build thread shows a graph.


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## dusdau (Feb 9, 2013)

chashint said:


> $3k sounds like a lot (and it is), but when you start spending it in $800+ chunks it goes really quick.
> If you could throw in another $500 you could have the 3311 AVR, VTF-15, and a Klipsch speaker system consisting of RB-81's up front (3 of these or a RC-62) and RB-61's for surrounds.
> Since you own the 81's yourself and like them you know if they will work in this space or not.
> 
> ...


Somehow I missed this yesterday . May go that route. Tv15 coupon big help. May go with 51s for surrounds instead. Good to hear about your sub and layout too. At very least, if a year or goes by and one sub doesn't seem to cut it, then a second can be added.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I think the 51's would be excellent surround speakers and there may be some available that are not the RB-51 II's which would save a little more and not be a concern for the surrounds.


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

I just did this DIY for under $2500 for my dad's new 7.1 HT:
$380 Onkyo 709, refirbished from A4L
$780 for left, center, right speakers - Zaph ZDT3.5
$220 SI 18D2 
$225 iNuke 1000DSP, Amazon
$310 2 pair of Classix II surrounds, Meniscus
$500 building supplies, wiring, etc


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