# Where has the Quality control Gone



## magic (May 23, 2011)

I started to think I had a bad speaker cable, or bad speakers. Then I started to think that my power in my home was bad. Why you may ask???

In the last few years I have had a :

Onkyo 801 ( Random over heat and would shut off)

Pioneer SC07 ( Blue light on the display went ) 
Pioneer 1018 ( cold solder, Blue light, Volume display board was bad) 
Pioneer SC9540 (Turns itself on off even when nothing is connected to it ( It was just dropped off for Repair)

Sony STRDA5400ES ( Bad Video board, Cold solder)
Sony STRDA5500ES ( Bad network and Reset issues)


I'm thinking either I am bad luck or I'm picking the wrong equipment. all were repaired under warranty but you in some cases have 1 month repair time.

I have asked others but it seems I'm the only one who has their system on for 10-12 hours a day 
either music or Tv in the background. 

I feel like I just expect it to have a problem now. :rant:


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

If you've got your system on for 10-12 hours a day, you probably want to own dedicated separates, made in Japan, Europe, or North America, and probably professional audio amplifiers too (such as Cinepro).

It's really the reality of modern processors though. It's less about Quality checking and more just the fact that there truly are so many different parts that can go wrong. The exponential increase in complexity in these devices is almost proportional to the likelyhood of issues.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

FWIW, I own an Onkyo 875 and have done for the last 4 years or so. I always have it on, probably more than 14 hours for over half the week. Its never missed a beat that entire time. I dont think its the amount of usage thats the problem, maybe the way you use it as you may need something stronger if your enthusiastic all the time.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Systems are much more complex today than in the past, doing much more, with much more that can break. That said, AVRs are probably more reliable than they have ever been in terms of the power supply and output stages. It is more the system control, digital, and signal processing and switching areas that tend to fail these days.

Solder is a bigger problem in some models because of the use of lead free solder and larger scale integration. With more connections in smaller areas, BGA chips, and the more critical process associated with lead free solder, there are many problems that seem to come as patterns of failure. Lead free solder requires higher temperatures and is more brittle. It simply does not flow nor break oxide barriers as easily as leaded solder.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

lcaillo said:


> Systems are much more complex today than in the past, doing much more, with much more that can break. That said, AVRs are probably more reliable than they have ever been in terms of the power supply and output stages. It is more the system control, digital, and signal processing and switching areas that tend to fail these days.
> 
> Solder is a bigger problem in some models because of the use of lead free solder and larger scale integration. With more connections in smaller areas, BGA chips, and the more critical process associated with lead free solder, there are many problems that seem to come as patterns of failure. * Lead free solder requires higher temperatures and is more brittle*. It simply does not flow nor break oxide barriers as easily as leaded solder.


Must be why I dont have problems with my 875, that thing runs toasty warm


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

I used to think it was the way I was using it but they are different issues. I had a good talk with one of the techs and it was my conformation that I wasn't doing anything wrong. 
The avrs have 6 inchs or more space. So that isn't the problem. 
Just luck of the draw it seems. 
I don't watch movies really loud that often. Just the tv shows during the day ps3 games and movies a couple times a week at night. 
Maybe their is something to it about getting separates as my UPA-1's have given me no problems so far. I'm going to look into the pre processors. I just wonder if they are built the same way or better. Maybe I should try a yamaha ( seem to have less defects )or integra ( I was told they are built by the same person from start to finish and tighter tolerances ) 
What do you guys think?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The 875, 805 are exceptions to the rule. They to this day are some of the best receivers Onkyo ever made other than running a bit hot. My 805 is still doing great but then again I dont have it in a rack and its never on more than 3 hrs a day.
Heat is generally a killer of electronics, if you live in a hot climate and dont have the area around the receiver ventilated well that will kill it in a hurry. HDMI video processing as well as the surround processing generats alot of heat as well not just the amps.


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2011)

Rated operation temps and humidity window is usually pretty small. Also if you smoke, that stuff gets caked on to everything.

I guess anything is possible, but I'd imagine it's a external factor be it heat, dust, smoke, humidity, etc that is causing the failures. Or, your just really unlucky. You might not want to spend any cash on lotto tickets if that's the case.


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

, I'm a non smoker, 
The Sony's all went in my basement they are on top so no Enclosure, what I can say is if you only had your AVR on for a 3 hour's or so I don't think you would notice some of these issues.

I didn't know my pioneer wasn't giving the volume display until i took it in when the Pioneers blue led were dying when the ice amps first came out. The Tech repaired it and not the Light 
then I got home and the volume was displayed, but the light was still bad.
The Tech and I had a good Laugh over that. 

I guess I use my gear more than others. I thought a lot more people had their gear on even longer than me
I will say looking at the available real-estate in the Sony's their was very little space in their after you see how much stuff is crammed in there.onder:


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

lcaillo said:


> Solder is a bigger problem in some models because of the use of lead free solder and larger scale integration. With more connections in smaller areas, BGA chips, and the more critical process associated with lead free solder, there are many problems that seem to come as patterns of failure. Lead free solder requires higher temperatures and is more brittle. It simply does not flow nor break oxide barriers as easily as leaded solder.


ROHS compliance is the end of long term reliability in consumer electronics.
In addition to lead free solder not working as well in the manufacturing process, tin whisker mitigation is a worldwide reliability problem for all industry.
This will continue get worse as the the components continue to get smaller.
Its one thing for for your TV or AVR to break after a short period of time (and don't get me wrong, that stinks) but the same problems exist with industrial electronics, automotive electronics, space based systems, communications, aircraft, power plants .... the list never ends.


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

Thanks everyone it just feels like I'm unlucky that's all. Don't get me wrong they fixed or replaced the defective units but you start to wonder.  The pioneer is currently in for repair so they had to order a part so I will let you all know what died on it. 

What I have found to be important is were is the authorized service center and are they able to get parts... 
Eg yamaha, denon/marantz Sony, anthem all have local repair centers near me. So I tend to favor these company's. 

Onkyo/integra, Arcam, Rotel, doesn't so I'm less inclined due to my past history. Emotiva was me trying outside the box and hearing so much good I figured what the he'll. So far almost a year and no problems.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Keep in mind that the Emotiva has alot less to go wrong under the hood as its just an amp.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

chashint said:


> ROHS compliance is the end of long term reliability in consumer electronics.
> In addition to lead free solder not working as well in the manufacturing process, tin whisker mitigation is a worldwide reliability problem for all industry.
> This will continue get worse as the the components continue to get smaller.
> Its one thing for for your TV or AVR to break after a short period of time (and don't get me wrong, that stinks) but the same problems exist with industrial electronics, automotive electronics, space based systems, communications, aircraft, power plants .... the list never ends.


I really despise lead free solder. That said, I think that the first sentence above is an unfair characterization. Many factors play into long term reliability. While there are issues with the resulting implementations that we have seen to date due to compliance, the issue is not so much with long term as with intermediate term and short term. We see lots of large scale ICs with solder problems, once installed properly, however, they seem to work fine. As for tin whisker migration, it is an issue but not nearly to the degree that many have suggested.


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

Yep Tonyvdb, 
agreed I haven't had any problems with my PS3 or my Sony blueray player or pioneer tv either. I just didn't want to seem like I'm having problems with all my equipment.


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

Just curious what type of speaker / load your driving ??


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## benbo (Jul 27, 2010)

I sort of believe that it is the luck of the draw. I have Adcom pre amp and a Acurus amplifier that are at least seven years old and have never been shut off ,except for cleaning. Granted they aren't played every day but they are powered up . Also I have a Onkyo 804 receiver that was purchased new , and is played every day, and is only shut down when I go on vacation, same for the separates. I have them connected to a UPS and line conditioner..

I have a Sony receiver in the reading room that has failed after a short lifespan. In addition I have two flat screens that barely made it out of warranty. None of the units were abused or played " hard"


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

RTS100x5 said:


> Just curious what type of speaker / load your driving ??


The Pioneer was connected to the B&W 683 main, and 685 for center and 685, Velodyne for sub for surrounds in a 5.1 config.

The Sony was hooked up to Klipsch RF5's and RC7 center, HSU sub in a 5.1 config also
all are run with copper speaker wires.


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## soundoff (Oct 3, 2007)

Where has the Quality control Gone ? I think it's moved over to China where most of this stuff is made. They go by different rules over there.

Most if not all gross solder defects can be weeded out and repaired by a visual inspection and powered bench test after assembly.

Curious how a newer AVR would perform during a HALT test (highly accelerated life test) ?

Anyway, you say there is 6" of space available and this is sufficient but I'll disagree and would suggest some form of additional cooling to extend operation because heat is def not an electronic components friend.

Stay cool by keeping things cool.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Quality Control is an issue these days. With prices staying more or less the same while there being a myriad of licensing fees needed for all of the surround modes, Room EQ and HDMI, et al, it really is a brutal marketplace. That being said, I too owned an Onkyo TX-SR805 and 875 that are still functioning flawlessly and my prior TX-NR3007 is the first AVR I have owned that has needed repair not due to user error. (I almost destroyed a Denon AVR-4800 by crossing the Speaker Cables while powered)

With the manufacturing of AVR's being so automated these days, I really do not think all the issues are with outsourcing to lower labor countries. With profit margins being quite thin, manufacturers are doing everything possible to keep costs down. Amplifier Stages really have been impacted as well. Especially in sub $1000 AVR's.

All of this being said, I really do think AVR makers are starting to realize just how essential QC is. Onkyo has caught a great deal of flak of late and I really do think that the x09 Series is going to prove to be less prone to failures. Same goes for the other brands, but Onkyo is a strong number 1 in Sales at this point and they no doubt do not want to lose market share.
Cheers,
JJ


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## xslatex (Sep 29, 2011)

It's not going to solve your problem, but a small help in the situation is checking the instrument cables direction. I've found most cables will sound better ran in one direction than the other


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I can only speak from the gaming side of things at the moment, Microsoft had major set backs with RROD which was a design flaw which some experts contribute to MS using the wrong type of lead free solder in addition to a undersized heatsink in the early models of the 360. There was also the overheating of the powerbrick issue but MS isn't alone in this, Sony has had it's fair share of issues with it's hardware as well the much talked about YLOD which has been the bane to all owners of the Fat model but isn't really acknowledged by Sony as a major design flaw of the older models.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Man the 360 has to be the worst device in history when it comes to reliability. IME it most definitely was.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I don't know about that I think the IBM Deskstar 75GXP A.K.A Deathstar might give it a run for it's money.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Thankfully I have never been a big PC'er so HDD problems dont bother me. Funny thing is though, my HDD in the original Xbox I had failed on me. I wander if it was one of those MS used, wouldnt surprise me


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

LoL I had an xbox but sold it for a PS3 
I didn't know they had problems. 

I'm thinking about the onkyo as I have heard they have become a lot better in the xxx9 series the 809 I was also looking at yamaha A2010 or the A2000 older model.


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Quality Control is an issue these days. With prices staying more or less the same while there being a myriad of licensing fees needed for all of the surround modes, Room EQ and HDMI, et al, it really is a brutal marketplace. That being said, I too owned an Onkyo TX-SR805 and 875 that are still functioning flawlessly and my prior TX-NR3007 is the first AVR I have owned that has needed repair not due to user error. (I almost destroyed a Denon AVR-4800 by crossing the Speaker Cables while powered)
> 
> With the manufacturing of AVR's being so automated these days, I really do not think all the issues are with outsourcing to lower labor countries. With profit margins being quite thin, manufacturers are doing everything possible to keep costs down. Amplifier Stages really have been impacted as well. Especially in sub $1000 AVR's.
> ...


Yes I agree with you, part of the reason i have stayed away from them. But if they are better now... 

Thanks for the info above. It good to here that they are taking it seriously.


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## soundoff (Oct 3, 2007)

I found in a store the Denon AVR 3311CI open box for $450. ! However, after some digging I found out it has the worst reputation ever, so many field failures that now repair parts are scarce


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

Just wanted to give you all an update. 
My pioneer was repaired and so far it's good.  I need to set up all the settings again but with the ruff settings it has been ok.


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