# old school Krell 7.1 or current Emotiva, Marantz, etc pre/pro



## CDklktr (Jan 2, 2012)

In the last few months I sold my Marantz Av7005 pre/pro and got an Emotiva UMC-200. While I like the size of the unit and a couple features the Emotiva offers, such as exceptional sound, it has issues. Notably, with at least my Tivo as input, I get the dreaded "digital noise" spike going through my Maggies when changing between programs I've recorded. Never had this problem with ANY processor I've had since surround sound existed and it's just inexcusable. While I like the one cable video/audio switching thru HDMI the Emotiva and Marantz offer, It's not something I couldn't live without (just means an extra step of switching the input source on the TV which will have all the HDMI connections, and the extra digital coax or toslink cable connection for each source unit to the pre/pro, right??, which is nothing I haven't had to deal with before). So older (pre-HDMI) Krell pre/pro's (HTS 7.1 for example) can be had for $1K or so. It can decode on it's own, thru a digital connection, the Dolby D my cable box and Tivo offer, and thru the 7.1 analog connections, my Oppo blu-ray player that has all the new codecs built in. So I'd have the latest codecs for movies, and, well, stereo (2.1 ?) is stereo (for straight music). I've always wanted a Krell in the system (had McIntosh as my previous HT setup which is now in the master bedroom) and short of dropping $6500 on their latest pre/pro, this is how I see I can make it happen.

Am I missing something here?

- Would I not get sub support from the digital channels that I want to use as 2.1?
- I will get full 7.1 from the Oppo thru the Krell, with the new codecs, right?

I'm pretty sure I have a handle on this but want to make sure I've got things covered and am not moving backwards from a sound quality standpoint (but knowing I'm going backwards from a one cable video/audio connection).

Thoughts/suggestions/criticisms/kudos? 
Is a pre HDMI Krell (HTS 7.1 or Showcase) up to the task given their age?

Thanks for any input you guys /gals can offer...


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

You couldn't get Dolby Atmos or DTS X with your suggested configuration, but this is not as much of a limitation as it first appears. The technology is new and immature and costly and there's only a few movies available right now. I think the smart play is to wait a couple of years and let the technology mature, prices come down, and more movies become available. You'd essentially be using the Krell as a preamp, which is similar to what I'm doing the my Cambridge Audio Blu Ray player, utilizing it's superior DACS through the 7.1 outs to my Arcam receiver. DTS MA and Dolby Tru HD are the mainstay surround formats right now, and you'd be getting all of that through a superior preamp. If you decide to go this way, please report on your findings.

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## thrillcat (Mar 25, 2014)

I also have a TiVo and a UMC200. It's a simple fix. Run an optical cable from the TiVo into the UMC and in the UMC menu you can configure the input to pull video from HDMI and audio from the optical. Then it's seamless, one touch operation like you'd expect. And until broadcast ups its audio quality you're not losing any quality by not using HDMI. 


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## CDklktr (Jan 2, 2012)

I've done the optical cable "fix", and honestly, it didn't work fo me. Not sure why given the number of folks that it has worked for, like yourself.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

I have a Krell 7.1 Showcase amp that I picked up and is what I'm using for my system. I've thought about adding an Oppo Player and the matching Krell Showcase Processor as well. For keeping to a simply DTS-MA decoding type thing it'll work great and you'll have one rock solid preamp as well.

FYI you can find them under 650 alot too.


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## thrillcat (Mar 25, 2014)

Weird that wouldn't work. What is the output in the TiVo set to? DD or PCM? I also tend to lock in the output resolution. 

Local affiliates will often run network programming in HD and local commercials are sometimes in SD. That change in resolution isn't handled well in the TiVo and the HDMI stream gets a hiccup. Emotiva runs pretty tight to spec, so it doesn't like the hiccups. Other AVRs have a looser tolerance and don't let go of the signal during the hiccup. 

By forcing the TiVo to always output the same resolution you eliminate the hiccups and the Emotiva stays locked in. 


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## thrillcat (Mar 25, 2014)

Not an ideal situation, for sure, but it's one I've decided I ca live with for the higher sound quality. If nets ever start broadcasting higher res audio I'll swap out for a newer DVR that handles the signal changes better. Looking at the ChannelMaster DVR+ right now, as I'm antenna only. 


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## CDklktr (Jan 2, 2012)

thrillcat said:


> Weird that wouldn't work. What is the output in the TiVo set to? DD or PCM? I also tend to lock in the output resolution.
> 
> Local affiliates will often run network programming in HD and local commercials are sometimes in SD. That change in resolution isn't handled well in the TiVo and the HDMI stream gets a hiccup. Emotiva runs pretty tight to spec, so it doesn't like the hiccups. Other AVRs have a looser tolerance and don't let go of the signal during the hiccup.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure I've tried the Tivo set at both DD and PCM. As you say, the Emotiva is quick to drop the signal as I sometimes see it drop when I'm fast forwarding thru commercials. I've stuck with the Emotiva so far mainly because I really do like the one cable solution (HDMI) vs. going back to component video and digital audio. One thing I haven't tried is maybe running my Tivo to my Oppo's digital in rather than directly to the Emotiva. I'm guessing it is just a pass through and the result would be the same though.


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## thrillcat (Mar 25, 2014)

It's still odd, because with mine set up using the optical cable and with everything locked in I don't lose the signal when I fast forward through commercials. It stays locked. 


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## CDklktr (Jan 2, 2012)

I'll play with it again in the next few days. Maybe the lock was OK but some other issue then started. I just remember that I tried and and went back to just using the HDMI only because the results were preferable for some reason, and I'm pretty sure I played with settings on both the Tivo and the input settings for it on the Emotiva (hard settings rather than auto type).


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## thrillcat (Mar 25, 2014)

If you're interested perhaps tomorrow evening I could look through my system and list all the settings I'm using to test. 


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## CDklktr (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm definitely interested. I appreciate the offer. When ever you get the chance to do it that would be great. No rush as I've been able to live this for a few months now but I'll try anything to see if I can get it better. Thanks!


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

I picked up a Krell HTS 7.1 locally to try out as I never had a Krell pre-pro before and it had a mono mode so it worked out well for a speaker comparison I did with some friends. I was really surprised how good it sounded, especially for music. Even movies had another layer of dynamics and I wound up replacing my Sherwood 972 with Trinnov for the Krell. This was all done via the digital inputs although my Oppo was also connected to the Krell via the 7.1 analog inputs I preferred the digital inputs better. 

I happened to also pick up a Proceed AVP2 locally and it was such a good deal I decided to give it a shot. I owned one a long time ago and remembered how good it was for music. I guess my memory is good because the AVP2 blew me away and it has the best music surround mode I have ever heard.

I still preferred the Krell a little more for movies until I bought some Triad Platinum's and the Krell made them sound a little too bright. I swapped out the Krell for the Proceed and wow, talk about a great match. I actually have the best sound in my home theater in a long time and I have owned some expensive pre-pro's over the years from Halcro, Meridian, ADA, Lexicon and more that I can't recall right now.

For the price of either the Proceed AVP2 or Krell HTS 7.1 on the used market it is a no brainer to try one out for yourself. Just don't go with the Showcase over the HTS 7.1, the later uses a much better analog stage and was outstanding using the 2 channel analog outs of my Oppo for SACD's. The 2 channel via analog inputs was better using the HTS 7.1 than the AVP2 but for my system the AVP2 is better overall.


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## thrillcat (Mar 25, 2014)

Okay. Audio out of the TiVo is set to Dolby Digital only. Video out of the TiVo is set to 1080p and 1080i- NOT allowing it to send anything else, so the TiVo handles all upconversion. 

HDMI 1 input on the UMC (I remember being told to use HDMI 1 for DVRs). Video is HDMI, Audio is Optical 1. 

Playback is set to DPLIIx for everything that isn't a lossless format, so everything from the TiVo will stay locked in on DPLIIx. 

Try those settings. They've been solid for me for a year. 


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## CDklktr (Jan 2, 2012)

Thrillcat - thanks for that. At least one difference I see from my setup is I'm using HDMI 2 on the UMC for the Tivo. I am using optical 1 though. I'm also not sure I had set the video out on the Tivo to 1080 as you mention as well. I'll give this a try tomorrow (just got back from the long weekend). I'll let you know how it goes. I'm pretty excited that it could fix the issue for me. Again, thanks!


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## thrillcat (Mar 25, 2014)

No problem. Hope I can help. I recall seeing something from Emotiva's top guys that you should connect your DVR to HDMI 1. I doubted it would make any difference, but that's where I would've connected it anyway. Anyway. Good luck!


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## CDklktr (Jan 2, 2012)

sub_crazy said:


> I picked up a Krell HTS 7.1 locally to try out as I never had a Krell pre-pro before and it had a mono mode so it worked out well for a speaker comparison I did with some friends. I was really surprised how good it sounded, especially for music. Even movies had another layer of dynamics and I wound up replacing my Sherwood 972 with Trinnov for the Krell. This was all done via the digital inputs although my Oppo was also connected to the Krell via the 7.1 analog inputs I preferred the digital inputs better.
> 
> I happened to also pick up a Proceed AVP2 locally and it was such a good deal I decided to give it a shot. I owned one a long time ago and remembered how good it was for music. I guess my memory is good because the AVP2 blew me away and it has the best music surround mode I have ever heard.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions sub crazy. I've done research on the HTS 7.1 vs. Showcase and read pretty much what you are saying about going for the HTS and no Showcase. I haven't looked into the Proceed but will now thanks to what you've said. I love the sound of my Emotiva, but figure I owe it to myself to compare it to some units out of it's league (price wise at least) to see if I'm missing anything (literally!) or not.

Side note, I realized my equipment list was sadly out of date, so I've updated it.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

sub_crazy said:


> I picked up a Krell HTS 7.1 locally to try out as I never had a Krell pre-pro before and it had a mono mode so it worked out well for a speaker comparison I did with some friends. I was really surprised how good it sounded, especially for music. Even movies had another layer of dynamics and I wound up replacing my Sherwood 972 with Trinnov for the Krell. This was all done via the digital inputs although my Oppo was also connected to the Krell via the 7.1 analog inputs I preferred the digital inputs better.
> 
> I happened to also pick up a Proceed AVP2 locally and it was such a good deal I decided to give it a shot. I owned one a long time ago and remembered how good it was for music. I guess my memory is good because the AVP2 blew me away and it has the best music surround mode I have ever heard.
> 
> ...


What do you use for room treatment tuning? I have been thinking of going this route too, but I don't know what I would use for tuning the room, since I wouldn't have Audyssey anymore.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

ellisr63 said:


> What do you use for room treatment tuning? I have been thinking of going this route too, but I don't know what I would use for tuning the room, since I wouldn't have Audyssey anymore.


I use a beringer dcx2496 for my diy subs which adds the needed boost down low and also eq's it for a house curve. My room is treated with the wall behind the screen covered in acoustic panels and bass traps in the corners. I have acoustic panels on both first reflections and bass traps on the back wall. The speakers measure great with no eq luckily but the krell hts 7.1 does have a manual eq that I used along with my omnimic to measure. With the avp2 there is no eq but it sounds great regardless.

I did use a onkyo 5508 and calibrated this room with Audyssey pro but going off my memory the room sounds better now than it did then. Of course I didn't have the triad platinum of si 24" subs at that time so it is not an apples to apples comparison.


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## CDklktr (Jan 2, 2012)

thrillcat said:


> Okay. Audio out of the TiVo is set to Dolby Digital only. Video out of the TiVo is set to 1080p and 1080i- NOT allowing it to send anything else, so the TiVo handles all upconversion.
> 
> HDMI 1 input on the UMC (I remember being told to use HDMI 1 for DVRs). Video is HDMI, Audio is Optical 1.
> 
> ...


So Thrillcat...made the changes you recommended last night, except left the Tivo on HDMI 2. Now I remember why I didn't like using the optical cable and went back to straight HDMI. At least twice last night at the end of fast forwarding thru commercials on the Tivo, I got the loud digital noise zap/crackle/whatever you want to call it thru the speakers. Not good. The only time I get that noise with HDMI only is sometimes when I start watching a new program right at the beginning. I can't imagine that moving to HDMI 1 will stop this from happening, although I have heard of stranger things like that working. So it's back to HDMI only. Thanks for trying to help though, I appreciate it.


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## thrillcat (Mar 25, 2014)

CDklktr said:


> So Thrillcat...made the changes you recommended last night, except left the Tivo on HDMI 2. Now I remember why I didn't like using the optical cable and went back to straight HDMI. At least twice last night at the end of fast forwarding thru commercials on the Tivo, I got the loud digital noise zap/crackle/whatever you want to call it thru the speakers. Not good. The only time I get that noise with HDMI only is sometimes when I start watching a new program right at the beginning. I can't imagine that moving to HDMI 1 will stop this from happening, although I have heard of stranger things like that working. So it's back to HDMI only. Thanks for trying to help though, I appreciate it.


Bummer, I thought for sure that would get you rolling. Oh well, at least we tried! FWIW I hear the XMC-1 does a better job of holding onto HDMI signals and doesn't have this problem. Also the ChannelMaster DVR+ and TiVo Roamio are supposedly better at not dropping their HDMI output signal.


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