# SB Audigy 2 Platinum and REW



## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

OK... I have the 1124p hooked up to my computer. The analog output of the new digital RS SPL meter is plugged into the RCA Auxillary 2 input (on the front of the computer) of the Creative Audigy 2 Platinum sound card. The ouput (line out on the back of the computer) is directly hooked up to the input of the BFD. I successfully set the measurement level (75dB at -38), but am having difficult setting the input level. The Creative Sound Mixer seems to be correctly set up since when I adjust the input volume on REW the Auxillary volume on the Creative Sound Mixer changes accordingly. The problem is that as the Pink Noise plays at 75dB (according to the SPL meter) when going through the "Set Input Volume" menu, the RMS is around 90dB and will only go as low as 85dB. Nothing I do changes that. What am I doing wrong? Please help!!!!!!!!!! I've gone through every thread on this site and this is the first dealing with this specific sound card. I've applied what I could from the others, particularly those dealing with other Creative sound cards, but none address my specific problems. Thanks in advance.


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Not sure if that card is like the Audigy 2 ZS Platinum? On that unit need the mixer set up more or less like the image below, also need to ensure "Record Withut Monitoring" is selected in the record Advanced Controls (accesses by clicking the red "+" symbol). If your mixer doesn't look like this, post a screen shot of it showing the current settings.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

The SB Audigy 2 Platinum Surround Mixer is very simlar. I'm at work, though, so I won't be able to try anything until tonight. Mine is set up the same way except the master control volume is at 50%, and the far right source colum is Auxillary 2. I also have the Wave at 100% and unmuted. It doesn't seem to matter if I have the Auxillary 2 source muted or not, and very little change occurs when the Auxillary 2 source volume is slid (with the exception of when it at 0). Auxillary 2 is also in the REC section, and that is the one that is controlled by the input volume in REW. The interesting thing is I don't have a red plus above the symbol above the volume slider in the REC section and I didn't find the Analog Mix label when playing with mixer last night... then again I wasn't sure where to look for it. I'll take a look tonight to see if I can emulate your image... except I'll have the Auxillary 2 Source unmuted (instead of line in) and see about changing slider in the REC section to Analog Mix. Hopefully that will work, and hopefully the red plus symbol will be there. If that doesn't work, I'll try using the Line-In jack at the back of the computer. The reason why I'm using the Auxillary 2 in is I already have the cable for it. If I go with the line in jack I'll need to make a run to buy another cable... not a big deal, just annoying. One would think it wouldn't matter if I use the line in on the back or the RCA Auxillary 2 in on the front, but maybe it just doesn't work that way.


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> the far right source colum is Auxillary 2. It doesn't seem to matter if I have that muted or not, and very little change occurs when the volume is slid other than when it is at 0. Auxillary 2 is also in the REC section, and that is the one that is controlled by the input volume in REW. The interesting thing is I don't have a red plus above the symbol in the REC section, and I couldn't find the Analog Mix... but I wasn't sure where to look for it.


I guess you're using the AD_EXT cable connection on the card to the front panel drive bay units' Auxillary 2 input (left or right) as shown with the arrow below? I guess I'm wondering if REW is handling that input the same as it would the rear stereo LINE_IN connector.









If you are using a 3.5mm (1/8" mono) plug from your SPL meter into one of the left or right Auxillary 2 inputs, then a simple adapter to convert it to stereo (as shown below) is all you need to use the rear LINE_IN connector.










brucek


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

brucek... you are exactly right. I'm using a 1/8" mono plug -> dual RCA wire. I plugged one of the RCA plugs into the right input on the front bay and left the other dangling. I have an old 3' wire with 1/8" plugs on each end... it's a little short, but I'll try using it to go between the RS SPL meter and the line in on the back of the computer and see what happens. Maybe the sound card uses the inputs differently :scratchhead:.


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> I have an old 3' wire with 1/8" plugs on each end... it's a little short, but I'll try using it to go between the RS SPL meter and the line in on the back of the computer and see what happens.


Yep, as long as the plug you use into the LINE_IN jack is *stereo* and you use one side (channel) only of the plug, then you should be good. Others have used this card with success, so I don't see a problem when you use LINE_IN....

brucek


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

The cable I have is male 1/8" mono to male 1/8" mono so that won't work. Whick means I'll need to get an adapter to be able to use either of my cables... so that means I'll get a female 1/8" mono -> male 1/8" stereo cable (to add to the male 1/8" mono -> male 1/8" mono cable) or a female RCA mono -> male 1/8" mono cable (to add to the male 1/8" mono -> male RCA stereo cable). I think the latter will be easier to get... but I'll get whatever is cheaper.


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> The cable I have is male 1/8" mono to male 1/8" mono so that won't work


That's right. The LINE_IN is a stereo jack and as such requires a stereo plug (to avoid a short), even though you'll only use one side for REW.

brucek


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

One more question. The cable that plugs into the RS digital SPL meter has a 1/8" male plug, right? That's what I used last night and it seemed to fit properly. The reason why I ask is the photos in the help menu show a single phono (RCA) plug going into the SPL meter, but the receptacle looks nothing like a female RCA jack. 

And, just to clarify, I have a male 1/8" mono to male 1/8" mono cable. If I plug one end into the RS SPL meter, the other end should go into the female end of a male 1/8" mono to female 1/8" stereo adapter... basically a Y-adapter with one male 1/8" plug on one end (which goes into the LINE_IN on the sound card) and two female 1/8" plugs on the other end (one of which will accept the male 1/8" male end of the wire coming from the SPL meter). This would be simple, but my cable is short, so it isn't my first choide.

Another option would be to use the 3' male 1/8" mono to stereo female RCA cable I used last night with the 1/8" end plugged into the sound card. I'd also use the 3' male 1/8" mono to male 1/8" mono cable previously discussed and have one end plugged into the SPL meter. This way there would be one male 1/8" mono plug on the free end of the wire coming from the SPL meter and two female RCA plugs on the free end of the wire coming from the sound card. This means I would then have to get an adapter with a female 1/8" plug on one end and a female RCA on the other. The upshot is a stereo adapter would leave the soundcard and a mono wire would leave the SPL meter. This would work better for me since the combined length is 6' and not 3'.

Would any or both of these options work?


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> The cable that plugs into the RS digital SPL meter has a 1/8" male plug, right?


No, that's an RCA jack on the RS meter.









You simply need to go from RCA at the SPL meter end to a stereo male 1/8" plug at the soundcard end (but you only use one of the left or right channels of the stereo plug).

Some people simply use an RCA cable plugged into one side of the the adapter shown below - note it's stereo:










I'm not a fan of that adapter since it's kinda heavy. I just made my own cable with an RCA to 1/8" stereo plug with one channel used.

brucek


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Thank you... kind of makes me feel like a dumb ***. Single RCA to stereo 1/8". Piece of cake!


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

OK... I'm at home and have made some adjustments. I bought a 6' cable with a stereo 1/8" male jack at one end and dual RCA male jacks at the other. Perfect. So now the red RCA male is plugged into the SPL meter LINE-OUT and the stereo 1/8" male is plugged into the LINE_IN on the back of the computer. The white RCA male end is dangling. I also have a stereo 1/8" male plugged into the LINE_OUT on the back of the computer it's red RCA is connected via an RCA->XLR cable directly into the BFD XLR in. So, I beleive the wiring is straight.

On to the software. The Surround Mixer has been set exactly as the one attached to post #2 except for two differences. The master volume is at 50% and the LINE_IN is muted. The reason for volume being set at that level is the measurement level was set based on it beingat 51%. As for the LINE_IN being muted a horribly loud (I mean VERY loud) hum went through the sub when I un-muted it.

Now onto REW. The device for input and output is set as the SB Audigy 2 audio. The input itself is set as LINE_IN and the ouput itself is set as SPEAKER. 

With all that done, the "dB SPL" is -17.3dB, the "Peak" flucutates around -90dB and the "RMS" fluctuates around 103-104dB.

Is this what I want?


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

After making some adjustments, I think I'm doing better.

Master Volume is at 50% and unmuted.
Source Wave is at 100% and unmuted.
Source MIDI synth is at 0% but muted.
Souce CD Audio is at 0% but muted.
Source Line-In is at 100% and unmuted.
Source Line-in 2/Mic 2 is at 0% but muted.
Souce Microphone is at 0% but muted.
Rec Analog Mix is at 51% and Record without Monitoring is selected.

REW is set up as before... the device for input and output is set as the SB Audigy 2 audio. The input itself is set as LINE_IN and the ouput itself is set as SPEAKER.

With the Surround Mixer and REW set up as above, the "dB SPL" fluctuates in the upper 40dBs, the "Peak" fluctuates in the low -30dBs and the "RMS" fluctuates around the upper -30dBs.

But, when I press "SET INPUT VOLUME" and go through the menus and the 75dB pink noise plays, the "dB SPL" fluctuates around 65 dBs, the "Peak" fluctuates around -10dB and the "RMS" fluctuates around -18dB!!!

For whatever reason the horrible feedback is gone... and I have no idea why. Hmm.

I'm doing a lot better . In order to stop the 75dB playback, I have to hit the "SET INPUT VOLUME" button agian, and then hit cancel, but then the "SET INPUT VOLUME" button stays red. What do I do to make it so it turns black?


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> In order to stop the 75dB playback, I have to hit the "SET INPUT VOLUME" button agian, and then hit cancel, but then the "SET INPUT VOLUME" button stays red. What do I do to make it so it turns black?


Mmm, haven't heard that specific problem before, but there have been a few people that had some strange problems depending on the soundcard.

Usually we don't send the output to the BFD, rather feed the AV receiver instead. This allows the volume control on the receiver to be used in the setup (much easier) and the crossover in the receiver to be used. (note since you are feeding the BFD directly, it is full volume to the sub until the volume on the soundcard is turned down..hummmmmmmmmmm.)
Use the AUX or CD input of the receiver. Many people will use a RCA Y-splitter at the receiver so both left and right mains can be used when they are brought into play to check crossover interaction. Normally the mains speakers are shut off though to set the BFD filters on the sub first.

Once REW is hooked up and ready to go, there is an order that should be followed to get REW setup properly.
Roughly it's this (don't know if this is the order you were using):

Hook up cables - start REW - ensure meter cal and **soundcard cal loaded. - select SUB tab - set cutoff frequency (i.e. 80hz)

1. Set Measurement Level.
2. Set Input Volume.
3.Calibrate SPL reading.
4. ** (if not previously done with a soundcardcal file in place) Calibrate the Soundcard here.
5. Set Target Level
6. Automatic Measurement.
7. Find Peaks
8. Assign Filters
9. Optimize Gain & Q.

brucek


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

I agree with you totally about running the BFD through the receiver 1st. It just makes sense... but I was told not to so I took the advice of this forum. I'll have to revisit that thought. It just makes sense to do it through the receiver with the mains crossed over to the sub, take out the mains, calibrate, then add them back and make any subtle adjustements necessary.


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> but I was told not to so I took the advice of this forum


Really?, who told you that?

brucek


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

I've searched the forum and can't find the post. Maybe it was in another forum. I swear I was told it, though.


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

Well, I guess if you were just equalizing a sub by itself without mains it could be done that way, but when you use mains, you really need the crossover. The volume control on the receiver is very handy also in the setup.

You'll have to post some graphs when you get some results..... 

brucek


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

I'll get it going. It's kind of embarassing having so many difficulties with something so simple.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

OK. I'm really annoyed. I rewired it so the stereo cable coming from the LINE_OUT on the back of the computer is plugged into the CD IN on the integrated, kept the front R&L speakers set as small (so they cross over to the sub at 80Hz) but unplugged them, reset the measurement level to 75dB and tried to set the Input Volume... but I'm having the same problem. When the 75dB pink noise plays and I have it set up as described above (except the Rec Analog Mix is at 67%) the "dB SPL" fluctuates around 67 dBs, the "Peak" fluctuates around -8dB and the "RMS" fluctuates around -18dB. Good news, except the pink noise keeps playing and there's nothing to do to say OK everything is set. The only way to stop the noise is to press Set Input Volume again. And, just as last night, it restarts the same process. The Set Input Volume butten stays red... I don't know what to do to move on. Can anyone help me?


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

I've not heard of this problem before. REW usually just works flawlwss - except for some bugs on MACs.

Why not just set the INPUT VOLUME manually and then carry on, and see how it goes? 

I guess the SET MEASUREMENT LEVEL went OK, so you now have your receiver volume set to produce 75dB on the RS meter.

Now just set the INPUT VOLUME manually with the up and down thumbwheel to the value it showed during the Set Input Volume test.... i.e 0.5

Then carry onto the CALIBRATE the SPL meter....

BTW - you do have the latest JAVA loaded?

brucek


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

As far as I know I have the latest JAVA, but I'll check it to be sure. If that doesn't change things, then I'll proceed with the setting as I currently have them. I'll just have to be careful to take notes, so if I want to go back later I can reset them as they are now. 

BTW, thanks for all the help, Bruce. This would have been a nightmare without your comments and advice.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

I have another question WRT setting the ouput volume/levels/gain. The way I have it, the gain on the Samson S700 (sub amp) is at 100% (or more accurately the cut is 0%). In order to get the pink noise to register ~75dB on the SPL meter with the measurement level at -20dB, I have the integrated volume at 29. When I played the free test tones I downloaded from Real Traps, I had to have the volume at 20. Does this mean anything? Should I reset the measurement volume with the Samson gain at, for example, 75% to leave some headroom in case I have to increase the gain of the sub after calibration?


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> In order to get the pink noise to register ~75dB on the SPL meter with the measurement level at -20dB


No, leave the Samson level for now and set the measurement level at -12dB..........

brucek


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Will do. 

First I'll check the JAVA software and update as necessary. Then I'll adjust my system's settings... the measurement level will be set to -12dB, the Samson gain will be left at 100%, and the integrated's volume will be adjusted to get the SPL reading to register ~75dB. All the while I'll keep close tabs on the RMS and Peak readings in REW. As long as the RMS stays at ~18dB, then I'll proceed.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

I must have **** luck. Java is up to date so I re-set the meaurement level. When set at -12dB and the integrated's volume was at 20 the SPL meter registered 72dB, so I dropped the measurement level to -10cB and that resulted in the SPL meter flickering between 74 and 75dB. Good enough. Since I can't finish setting the input volume, I left it as is since everything made sense. So, I calibrated the SPL reading without a hitch. Then I tried to calibrate the sound card. Since the stereo cables plugged into the LINE_IN and LINE_OUT jacks have left and right RCA's, I connect the LINE_IN left to the LINE_OUT left and the LINE_IN right to the LINE_OUT right to create the loop. I then clicked "Measure Coundcard Response...", kept the level at -6.0dB, clicked "Continue" and nothing happened. No measurement came about. The REW software looks like I never pressed "Measure Coundcard Response..." in the first place. Is this normal? Maybe I should just download REW again.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

I decided to play around and started pressing buttons. Low and behold I hit "automatic measurement" and sure enough, it measured the soundcard response. If that was in fact the right thing to do, it would probably be a good idea to have that mentioned in the Help File. So, I got my Soundcard measurement, except "Actual RMS at 1kHz" was not measured and neither were the 2nd or 3rd Harmonics at 1kHz. OK. I continued on anyways, clicked "Left", unselected "Compensate for C Weighting", hit "Automatic Measurement" and sure enough I got a nice flat line. Beautiful, except it's flat at 81.5dB and not 75dB. Is it supposed to be this way or am I just doomed? Is the program set up properly to start taking measurements of my system? Hopefully I'll be able to do that this weekend.

I've had enough for one night. Time for bed. Sorry for the hand holding but please tell me if I'm doing this properly or not. I'm very greatful for the help, yet at the same time it's hard to figure things out when the advice I get doesn't happen when I'm actually playing with the program. Sorry for the rant. I just want to get this program running so I can get great sound out of the sub.


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> I connect the LINE_IN left to the LINE_OUT left and the LINE_IN right to the LINE_OUT right to create the loop.


No, you only make a single loopback connection. If you are going to use the right channel for measurements, then you remove the connections to the SPL meter and receiver and short the LINE_OUT right to LINE_IN right. The other left channel *always* remains unused... Use the right channel only. The loopback is only used to do the soundcard test and to create a soundcard calibration file, then the loopback is removed and your regular cabling put back in place.



> When set at -12dB and the integrated's volume was at 20 the SPL meter registered 72dB, so I dropped the measurement level to -10cB and that resulted in the SPL meter flickering between 74 and 75dB. Good enough


It would have been better to leave the level at -12dB and simply turn up the volume of your receiver. The actual volume setting of the receiver makes no difference. It can be -20dB or -5dB or whatever. You're simply attempting to create the correct input and output conditions of REW so it can accurately measure your response and recommend BFD filters.



> Since I can't finish setting the input volume, I left it as is since everything made sense.


As long as you feel the input VU meter looked like it was responding with some signal and wasn't in the red. If you think the input volume is a bit low you can simply click the little thumbwheel and turn it up a bit. You want the input VU meter to be in the yellow when it's perfect. Since you can't use the automatic input volume setup, simply play some pink noise with REW after you've 'set the measurement level' and see where the input VU meter is responding. If it's low, turn it up.



> The REW software looks like I never pressed "Measure Coundcard Response..." in the first place. Is this normal? Maybe I should just download REW again.


It should just work when you press the button.



> I continued on anyways, clicked "Left", unselected "Compensate for C Weighting", hit "Automatic Measurement" and sure enough I got a nice flat line. Beautiful, except it's flat at 81.5dB and not 75dB. Is it supposed to be this way or am I just doomed? Is the program set up properly to start taking measurements of my system?


Use the right channel and stick with it. All loopback and measurements will be done with one channel.
'Compensate for C weighting' should be checked and you should also have the calibration file (.cal) for your specific meter loaded from here.
Make sure the sub tab is selected also. You also should select the target level before doing an automatic measurement.

brucek


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

After hitting "Continue" on the soundcard measurement level dialog a progress panel should pop up and the process should run through automatically. If that isn't happening some sort of error might have occurred, if so there will be a log of what happened in the debug files. To locate those, open the Help -> About... box to see where your home directory is (typically c:\Documents and Settings\yourusername), the files are stored there. Look for files called roomeq_wizard0.txt, roomeq_wizard1.txt etc. Open each file in any text editor (e.g. Notepad) and see if there are any error messages, if there are then email me the file. A new file is created each time REW is started, the last 9 copies are kept in a rotating list.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Bruce and John... thank you for the advice. OK. When I took the measurement of the souncard, the help menu said to unclick C Weighting to see if the measurement was flat, but to otherwise have it clicked. That is my intension. I also checked the left channel as that is what the help menu said to do. I will recalibrate the level to -12dB and then attempt to recalibrate the soundcard using the right RCA only (as well as the right channel). I believe I'm getting an error with the system when setting the input volume as nothing pops up after playing the 75dB pink noise. I also think I'm getting an error as nothing pops up after clicking continue in the soundcard calibration. John... I will check for errors tonight and e-mail anything out of the ordinary. It sounds like I just have a few bugs to work out. One other thing, I already have the calibration file for my RS SPL meter... but how do I apply it to the program?


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Nevermind... I assume I click "load meter/calibration file..." under the meter section. If there is anything else to making REW use it please tell me.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Well, I did everything as described, but when I went to calibrate the soundcard the same thing happened... no popup. But, in addition, the plot looks like a 9.5 earthquakes reading on a seizemograph (sp?). It also says the impulse peak is not where it should be.


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> but when I went to calibrate the soundcard the same thing happened... no popup


I'm certainly at a loss to know what's wrong? Don't know of anyone having this trouble.

If you send the debug file to John, I'm sure he will be able to come up with more answers...

brucek


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

The files are long. I don't know what that means, but there is a ton of stuff in them. As for what's going on, I figured out a couple things. The graph went crazy because REW reverted some things on the soundcard Mixer. After I took care of that, I reset the values and come up with this for an unalterred plot...










Any opinions on where to start?

Obviously I have that nasty null at 74 Hz. I'll just have to let it go and when I have the capability cross over to the mains below it. As for what's going on elsewhere, there are definitely places to cut, but should I boost the lower frequencies to bring 'em up? I've played around with it quite a bit and came up with different plots, but I'd rather ge your advice before enacting them. What would you consider the maximum boost advisable? 

Here's another idea. If I set the Target to 65dB (instead of 75dB), for the most part, all I'd have to do is cut the output at selected frequencies. I could get a very good looking plot, but how would that affect the overall volume coming from the sub after calibration? Would it be too quiet? I don't think it would be because without the BFD the sub is very loud. When I did raw measurements with the SPL meter (with the pink noise at 75dB) using the updated correction factors, the response was 25 dB hot in places! I would imagine if I calibrate with a target of 65dB I would get a great curve all the way to 10 Hz. And, since I'll be cutting only 15 Hz or so, that means I'd still have a 10dB house curve... does that make sense?


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

First, why are you measuring to 24Khz? You're equalizing a sub woofer with a limit range.

Set the Graph axis limits for every graph with a *vertical scale from 45dB to 105dB and a horizontal range from 15Hz to 200Hz*. 
Reset the graph after every measurement to that range setting. 
There is an icon called Set Graph Axis Extends at the bottom right hand side of the graph to store and reuse each measurement to make it convenient.

Set the sweep measurement from 20Hz to 200Hz.(it will actually sweep wider than this to 400Hz, but use this setting)



> If I set the Target to 65dB (instead of 75dB),


No, use 75dB.



> but should I boost the lower frequencies to bring 'em up?


No, you simply cut the higher frequencies and compensate later for any levels with your sub amplifier.



> how would that affect the overall volume coming from the sub after calibration? Would it be too quiet?


Turn up the sub.



> I would imagine if I calibrate with a target of 65dB I would get a great curve all the way to 10 Hz. And, since I'll be cutting only 15 Hz or so, that means I'd still have a 10dB house curve... does that make sense?


No, the purpose of REW and a BFD is to remove peaks caused by resonances. It's intent isn't to make a sub extend to 10Hz when it isn't capable.

The idea is to locate a sub to get the best response and then remove room resonant peaks with a few cutting filters.

brucek


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Hi Krister,

Got your email, thanks. The Exceptions (aka errors) that are logged look they might relate to the look & feel you have selected, do you run a theme other than one of the Windows defaults on your system? There is a bug within Java that can cause errors on systems not using the default look&feel themes, which looks like the culprit here. If you are using a non-standard theme please post what it is, I can then feed that back to Sun to ensure the problem has been resolved for the Java V6 release.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

John... the only thing out of the ordinary on the way I have windows set up is I have the screen black. Besides that, it's just the norm. After work, I double check the exact setting, and then reset the diplay to the original Windows theme and see if that makes a difference. 

Bruce... I'll be sure to standardize the graph and readout response. I didn't get the plot out until late last night so at that point I was just happy to have a plot to play with . As for adjusting the sub volume, I have an IB sub powered by a prosound amp. The cut on the sub amp is at zero (the nob on the front is turned fully clockwise). The only other way to increase the volume relative to the mains is to increase the gain of the SUB OUT on the integrated but that was set to optimize the level input to the BFD so as to not make it clip. Obviously I don't want to change that. That's why I questioned whether I should decrease the gain (or increase the cut) on the Samson itself before calibration. Having headroom to adjust the volume of the sub vs the mains after calibration would be nice .

Having said all that, there is the fact that the sub played significantly louder than the mains over the bulk of it's frequency range before calibration when the gain on the Samson was at the same level. I tested the system response previously with test tones playing from 10Hz to 100Hz in 1Hz steps, and then spaced out from there up to about 200 Hz. When I tested the combined output of the sub and mains, the pink noise was set to 75 dB. The in room response from the main seated position started at 77dB at 10 Hz and steadily and for the most part evenly rose to 97 dB at 37 Hz (there were a few minor blips). It then dropped to 83 dB at 46 Hz. After that it rose to 100 dB at 56Hz (and stayed there until 63Hz). From there it droped to 95 dB at 76 Hz and then rose to 99 dB at 81 Hz (and stayed there until 100 Hz). Then it slowly dropped to about 75 dB at 140 Hz. As stated before, all of this was done with the amp gain turned up 100% and the level output from the integrated amp set to a point where the clip light on the Samson S700 has only flickered once.

What I take from that is with the gain of the sub amp where it is right now, I should be able to generate a plot without boosting anything that is flat to 10 Hz (except for where the dip is at 74 Hz).


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> What I take from that is with the gain of the sub amp where it is right now, I should be able to generate a plot without boosting anything that is flat to 10 Hz


I understand the point you're making, and in the case of an IB (which would normally extend very low without problems), you may be correct.

Here's my point. Consider a sub that has a stated response from 25Hz to 150Hz. A graphed response check reveals (as expected) that it's down 10dB at 15Hz. A creative person might say, "I could reduce all the frequencies above 15Hz down to the level of the 15Hz signal and then turn up the main gain and my response would go from 15Hz to 150Hz".......
And indeed it would, except there would still be minimal output at the low end since that sub simply cannot produce any SPL level from 15hz to 25Hz. It just isn't capable.

From the levels you post (and evidenced from your graph), your contention is that you have a very large peak from 25Hz to 140Hz. I guess this could be so, but I can't say either way. I wonder what sort of SPL level you can muster up at 10Hz?

Anyway, there certainly are devices like this that can be placed between the BFD and pro amp that raise the line level. That way you'll have some control over the sub amp gain dial......

brucek


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Well, I played around a bit, went with my hunch, and the results are very satisfactory. I tried different filter configurations before coming up with one that I like. What I did was compare the REW raw plot to my measurements pre BFD and pre REW. I ultimately cut a lot in most places (since the sub was playing so hot) and boosted mildly in a few others. I know boosting is at my own peril, but I decided to try it. I kept the volume down and increased it as I got more comfortable with the amps ability to handle the signal. 

The upshot is I remeasured the response, and it is _much_ better. It starts at 75dB at 10 Hz and steadily increases to 87dB at about 30 Hz. It then slowly decreases to about 81dB at 120 Hz and then drops to about 75dB at 140Hz. Voices sound much more realistic... the lower voices were way to heavy with the sub as hot as it was before. It does seem much quieter, though. Kind of weird. Music is much better. I'm still getting used to the quality of a an IB sub that is properly calibrated. The only problem is there is an unavoidable 4dB dip between 40 Hz and 60 Hz. There isn't much I can do about that and it probably isn't that discernable anyways. Another thing is with the sub response dialed in the amp doesn't come close to clipping. Overall I'm very happy:jump:.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Once again, I just want to thank Bruce for his repeated help. Sorry for needing so much hand holding.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

After a few more adjustments (it never ends :daydream, I have a plot that really makes me happy.










Just ignore the dB's on the left. Actual measurements are about 20 dB higher, but the overall shape of the REW plot is almost identical to the corrected RS SPL meter's measured response. There are only couple difference. The first and obvious difference is when the sub and mains are both on the response flattens out at 80Hz and stays at 75dB (which correlates to ~56dB on the REW plot) from there on upward. The other difference is the exception to what I just stated... there was a peak 120Hz when the the sub and mains played simultaneously (which is why there is a dip in the REW plot at 120 Hz). The combined result after EQing is a beautiful house curve with a peak at about 30 Hz that is 11 dB hotter than the pink noise.

I absolutely love the sound now that it is finalized. BTW, the amp is nowhere near clipping, so even though I boosted a few areas there appears to be no side effects. Even still I'll be careful when watching WOTW for the first time. Batman Begins absolutely kicked $#^!

Next project will be a good PJ for the HT!


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Bruce... I couldn't figure out what the **** was going on. To say the least it was really "irritating". Anyways... I finally figured out what the problem was... the "in/out" LED wasn't lit :duh:. Now the is output is amazing!!! 

:fireworks1: :fireworks2: :fireworks3:


The following is with +13 boost at 20 Hz with the bandwidth at 76: 











The following is with +8 boost at 20 Hz with the bandwidth at 76: 










So... the beauty is I can cut back on the bass boost if needed after I figure out what the system can handle. Obviously I'll be very carefull in the mean time.


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> I finally figured out what the problem was... the "in/out" LED wasn't lit


Yeah, been there, done that....... I sure find the filters work best when turned on...hehehe :yikes: 

bruce


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

It's amazing... you feel so stupid yet so happy to get it working. Anyways... the boost I put in was way too much. The subs started to bottom (I think) in WOTW. I kept repeating and slowly increasing the volume in the scene where the pavement cracks and the first machine rises. At the highest volume I like to listen to movies the subs weare easily moving 2.5" if not 3" peak to peak (3" is peak to peak Xmax). They were moving slowly, but a hell of a long way. Creepy and scary to say the least. I heard a couple of small pop like noises when they moved that much, so I quickly turned it down. Luckily no damage was done. At any rate, I alterred the boost in the lower frequencies so now it tapers to no boost at 10 Hz. Before it was boosted about 8dB! Stupid is all I can say. After dropping off the boost they moved about 1.5-2" without a hitch. That seems to be about right. Since the scenes are such an extreme, I think they'll be safe. They also seemed to move about 1.5-2" during the helicoptor scenes in BHD. It's a rush to stand below the IB, look up into it, and see those puppies moving so much.

Here's the new one...


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

OK guys,

I'm back at EQing my sub. I've changed a few things around in the room and want to re-optimize my response. Since I had so many problems and the dB level was not accurate, I want to go over the steps I've taken so far to be sure I've done things correctly.

I downloaded the updated version of REW. 
I clicked settings and proceeded to set up my system.
Under Soundcard, I have the input and ouput devices as my SB Audigy 2. Output is "Speaker" and input is "LINE_IN (Line-In 2.Mic 2)"

Wave Volume is 1.000 and unmuted
Output Volume is 0.505 and unmuted
Input Volume is 1.000
Sweep when I turn of REW is 20


I'm having trouble calibrating my soundcard. When I go to do it, I set the Sound Mixer as follows:

Master Control...
Volume 51%
Bass 50%
Trble 50%

Source...
Wave 100% and unmuted
MIDI Synth 0% and muted
CD Audio 0% and muted
Line-In 100% and unmuted
Line-in 2/Mic 2 0% and muted
Microphone 0% and muted

Record...
Analog Mix (Line//CD/Aux/TAD/PC) 97% and Record Without Monitoring is NOT checked.


With the mixer set like that, I manually change the Sweep Level to -16.0 dB and the Output and Input meters read as follows:

Output: -13.0 at the top and -16.0 at the bottom
Input: -12.9 at the top and -15.9 at the bottom

I think that's set properly as it's in the green (not yellow) which I take it as meaning it's safe.

So, I hit next in the help menu at the bottom of the settings window since the input volume has been set. The help menu says the soundcard can be measured, so I hit next. As predicted, the settings window minimizes and the new measurement shows. But, unlike predicted, the Settings window doesn't pop back up. When I manually bring it back up, I can hit finish. 

That's great... the plot looks pretty standard, but how do I save my calibration file? The "Make Cal..." button is greyed out.

Thanks advance for your help.


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> That's great... the plot looks pretty standard, but how do I save my calibration file? The "Make Cal..." button is greyed out.


Press FINISH and then the Make CAL is enabled....


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

I did that but it remained greyed out. I repeated twice but it never became enabled.


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Two things seem a bit odd, you say you have:

Source
Line-In 100% and unmuted
Line-in 2/Mic 2 0% and muted

for Source, why is Line In unmuted? If you need the input unmuted in Source to work then shouldn't it be Line In 2/Mic 2 that is unmuted as that is the one you say is selected as the input? 

You also say "Record Without Monitoring is NOT checked". If the box does say Record _without_ monitoring then you want it to be checked.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Thanks guys.

I'll double check things tonight and reread the help menu. I'm sure it's something simple.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

JohnM - 

I double checked my conections and settings. There are two inputs listed as LINE_IN (Line-In 2/Mic 2) in Sound card tab of the Settings window. Why I don't know, but they are listed that way. When I select the first one and use LINE_IN 1 on the back of the sound card, I get a reading (so it must be the right one since I don't get any readings when any of the other tabs are selected). I also realized that I'm supposed to have "Record without Monitoring" button selected, so I did that. 

Still, even when things are set up properly, I can't calibrate my soundcard. When I click the Measure button in the Calibration section of the Soundcard tab of the Settings window, I click next in the first window because my loop is set up properly. I then click next again because the Sweep Level, Wave Volume and Output Volume are set as instructed. In the following window, with Sweep set to -16.0, the Output put goes from -13.0 to -16.0 and the Input goes from -13.1 to -16.1, I so I hit next again. It says the soundcad can now be measured, so I should hit Next. It says the window should shrink and a measurement progress panel will appear. Well, when I hit next, teh settings tab minimizes but all I'm left with is the main REW window without any measurement. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. It's very frustrating.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

What's weird is in the Mixer, in the REC section, the "Analog Mix" selection is the only one that allows one to check "Record Without Monitoring". Yet in REW in the Souncard tab of the Settings window, Analog Mix is not an option as an Input. When I have the Mixer open and select different Inputs in the soundcard tab of the settings window, the selection in the REC section of the mixer changes accordingly. Then, as posted previously, when trying to measure the soundcard, when a 1kHz signal plays, they only settings in the mixer that allow equal input and output are when Wave Volume at 100%, Output Volume at 50%, Line-In at 100% and REC Analog Mix at 73% volume. Maybe my problem is the only setting in the Mixer REC section that works in setting the soundcard calibration properly isn't actually selectable as an input in REW? I've tried all sorts of combinations and nothing seems to work.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Just to try something different, I selected Auxillary 2 as the Input on the Soundcard tab of the Settings window. If you don't know, the Auxillary 2 input is a RCA stereo input on the soundcard's panel on the front of the computer. I then physically connected the Auxillary 2 input to the Speaker L&R LINE_OUT on the rear panel (since SPEAKER output is and has been seleced as the Output of the Soundcard tab of the Settings window). I did this because Auxillary 2 can be selected as an input in the Soundcard tab of the Settings window and it also is one of the selections in the REC section of the Creative Mixer. With things set up this way, I can control WAVE, INPUT, OUTPUT and SWEEP from REW and all but SWEEP actually show up in the Creative Mixer. When measuring the 1kHz tone, the Input and Output levels are equal at -13.0 to -16.0 when the Wave volume is 100%, the Output Volume is 100% and the Input Volume is 53.1%. When I hit next to measure the Soundcard, the Settings window minimizes and the REW window remains, and now "Soundcard Cal" appears towards the bottom but it says 0.0dB. When I bring the Settings window back up and click finish, the "Make Cal..." tab is still greyed out. This seems like it might be better, but it still isn't letting me calibrate the soundcard. I don't know what else to do.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Just to note, I've also tried adjusting the SWEEP from -16 up until about -4 and that doesn't make a difference in generating a soundcard calibration reading. Does the SWEEP level really matter? All I can tell is as it goes up from -16 to -4, the colors in the INPUT and OUTPUT level graphs change from what I interpret a safe color to a guarded color to a dangerous color. I also tried the change in my most recent post to be as similar as I can to the Creative Soundblaster sticky thread. That soundcard is different than mine but it is similar.


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

You may find it easier and more reliable to leave the REW input and output as default, make sure your Audigy 2 is set as the default for audio input and output in the control panel audio settings and just use the Creative mixer to select inputs and adjust levels. The analog mix isn't available for selection in REW because the Creative driver doesn't expose it to audio applications.

If you look in the REW log files are there any error messages? In the meantime I'll PM you a link to the latest REW beta to see if that does any better.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Thanks John. I'll check tonight.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

JohnM kindly sent me ver 4.10beta9 and I got it up and running. Unfortunately my problems aren't solved. It does however have to nice additions .

Here is what I've done and this is what happens:

When I open up REW, I first went to Settings. Since "Soundcard" is the first heading, I went there first. I set the output device as the default output and the input device as the default input. My Audigy 2 soundcard has been set as the default audio processor. 

To comply with the SoundBlaster Live external soundcard thread, I have the *Creative Mixer *set as follows:

Master Control: 

*Volume 100% and unmuted*

Source:

*Wave 100%* and *unmuted*
MIDI Synth 0% and muted
CD Audio 0% and muted
Line-In 100% and muted
Auxiliary 2 43% and muted
Microphone 0% and muted

REC:
Auxilary 2 53%


Version 4.10beta9 has replay and record buffers. I left them at 32k (I didn't touch them).

The next section down in the "Soundcard" tab is "Calibration". I click "measure" and set up the wires as directed. I have the 1/8" stereo plug plugged into the speaker out at the back of my computer. The other end of the wire has two RCA plugs. I have them plugged into the "Auxillary 2 in" RCA plugs on the front of the computer. I used to have only the right one plugged in, but now have both because Version 4.10beta9 checks "Out", "Left" and "Right". Since I have the wiring done properly (I think), I clicked next. The next help menu talks about setting the "Sweep Level" between -6 and -12 so I set it at -9. I click next. The Help menu then states a 1kHz tone is playing. With the Wave Volume at 100%, the Output Volume at 100%, the Input Volume at 53.1% and Sweep Level at -9.0, the three bars to the right light up. The "Out" meter measures -6.0 at the top and -9.0 at the bottom. The "Left" meter measures -5.9 at the top and -8.9 at the bottom. The "Right" meter measure -6.0 at the top and -9.0 at the bottom. Since that looks great, I click next. Immediately, the "Out" meter turns grey, the "Left" meter turns black and the level drops dramatically to the point that it's completely black and states approximately -70 at the top and approximately -81 at the bottom. The "Right" meter also dropped instantaneously and has similar readings. While that happens, the help menu says "the soundcard can now be measured. Press Next to start he measurement... ". So, I click next. The Settings window minimizes and I'm left viewing REW. There is a plot on the screen that shows the target response and the Mic/Meter Cal (which has already been entered). At the bottom of REW, it shows the legend for the plot. The Soundcard Cal is greyed out and says 0.0dB. When I pull up the settings window, the text in the Help menu is the same as before I hit next, but it says Finish or Cancel at the bottom. I click Finish and it brings me back to the main Soundcard tab and it looks like I never tried to calibrate the soundcard. Under Calibration, "File: None" is present, "Browse..." is black, "Clear Cal" is grey, "Measure..." is black and "Make Cal" is grey.

It seems obvious that it isn't measuring the soundcard even though it should. I don't know why. Hopefully this can help Bruce or John. Literally the only things I've done are load the meter calibration file for my specific meter (the new RS digital SPL meter) and try to calibrate the soundcard. I've done everything as described. The only other thing I've done is go through the SoundBlaster Live external soundcard thread and made sure any EQ is off digital out is not checked.

Bruce, John, anyone... am I missing something obvious? Can you tell what I'm doing wrong?

BTW, this is the thread I'm referencing:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ndblaster-live-24-bit-usb-external-setup.html


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Click the VU meters button to bring up the meters so that you can see them when the settings dialogue minimises after clicking "Next" to make the soundcard measurement. What happens on them, does the "out" meter come back on and show level? Are levels shown in the input meters?

Is the measurement dialogue appearing when the settings dialogue disappears?

What sweep length do you have selected and how long are you waiting for REW to finish the measurement?

If you look in the REW folder in your home directory at the roomeq_wizardxx.log files are there any error messages in them?


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

JohnM said:


> Click the VU meters button to bring up the meters so that you can see them when the settings dialogue minimises after clicking "Next" to make the soundcard measurement. What happens on them, does the "out" meter come back on and show level? Are levels shown in the input meters?
> 
> Is the measurement dialogue appearing when the settings dialogue disappears?
> 
> ...


When I first turned REW on tonight, things went just as you asked in the first paragraph. All meters stayed lit and were essentially equal. Then I desided to be bold and calibrate the SPL meter. And, with my luck, things went back to how they were 2 posts ago. Not only that, but sometimes I have to have the input and output devices set to default, and sometimes I have to specifically select Auxilary 2 as the input and SPEAKERS as the output. I'll try one and sometimes it will work and sometimes it won't. If one won't work, then I'll try the other. Eventually one will work to the point that a signal goes across, but the meters still go grey and drop when I click "Next" below the window that says "the 1kHz tone is now playing". The odd thing is the SPL meter shows approx 145 dB when the 3 meters are lit, and then drops to 75dB when they go grey.

I don't know how long the sweep length is. How do I set that? I will let it wait 15 minutes and nothing happens.

When I look in the roomeq_wizardxx.log files there's a ton of text, but I don't see "error" anywhere. Lot's of "Exeption in thread... " and "at Java... " and a few "at roomeqwizard...)


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

And, when the settings window minimizes after pressing "Next", the measurement dialiogue box on the left side of REW stays grey. Is that what you were asking about?


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Now I just went through trying to calibrate the soundcard again and while I entered and the meters were grey, the SPL meter in REW said about 26 dB, then the 1kHz tone played and it shot up to about 97 dB. Then I clicked "Next" and the VU meters turned grey and dropped as indicated a few posts back. As they turned grey, the REW SPL meter dropped back down to about 26dB. I clicked "Next again to measure the soundcard. The Settings window minimizes... and nothing happens. I'm left with REW and the measurement box to he left has a greyed out "Measurement notes are entered here after taking measurements".


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

BTW, I forgot to mention, if I have the VU Meters showing, they stay grey after the Settings window minimizes. There is a reading in the "Out" meter... it's 12 but grey. The "Left" and "Right" meters are black... the top has blue numbers that fluctuate around -72 and the bottom numbers are blue and fluctuate around -83.


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Those exception messages are the errors, could you please email me some of the files with the exception info in them to see if we can track down the problem, john_mulcahy at hotmail.com.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Will do. I won't be home until tonight, though (10 hours from now).


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

e-mail sent.


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Krister,

Thanks for the additional debug info. Good news and bad news, the bad news is the problem is caused by a bug within Sun's Java Runtime Environment and there's nothing I can do in REW to correct it. The good news is there are workarounds. The bug is triggered by running a non-standard XP theme, so if you revert to one of the standard themes (Control Panel->Display->Theme) the problem should go away. It may also go away if you install JRE version 6 (you can get it from java.com). It would be helpful to know what theme you are running that is triggering the problem, though.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

John,

Thanks for your help. I couldn't do it without you. 

Your advice was taken and sure enough going with the "Classic Windows" theme did the trick.

Now... my calibration plot looks like ****. I e-mailed you on this. What do you think?


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

I just tried another calibration... looks like I have a feedback loop. Not sure how to get rid of it as the only REC selection that allows one to click "record without monitoring" is Analog Mix. Since REW can't work with "Analog Mix"... am I stuck?


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

That plot is not a feedback loop, looks more like noise pickup from an unconnected input. In the XP audio properties set the Audigy 2 as the default device for input and output. Use Line In on the Audigy 2, select Analog Mix as the REC source making sure "Record Without Monitoring" is checked and in the Audigy mixer source box make sure that Wave and Line In are NOT muted but everything else is muted. On the REW soundcard settings leave both the input and output set to "Default Device". That should be correct settings for the soundcard side, the next thing to check would be the cables and connections.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Thanks! Things are definitely heading in the right direction :T. Hopefully I'll be able to take it from here and not take up so much of your time.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

I think I have a loose connection. I set it up as John recommended. With the theme set as "Windows Classic", the program works as advertised (that is windows pop up as they are supposed to) but the right/left meters don't work as predicted. When I jiggle the LINE_IN connector, the numbers fluctuate. I The problem is when I turn the wires around and put the opposite connector in, it also feels loose. I think the problem might be with the soundcard jack and not the adapter plug :duh:. We'll see. I'll return mine and try another to see if that fixes it. Otherwise, I think I'll buy a cheap external soundcard for my laptop. At least then I won't have to deal with SoundBlaster.


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## jagman (Jul 8, 2006)

Well, I tried exchanging out cords and still had a lose connection. So, I picked up a M-Audio Transit external soundcard. Set it up and within about an hour I had REW fully set up with calibrated soundcard, calibrated SPL meter, levels set appropriately, etc. By then it was time for bed, but I tell you, the M-Audio Transit may be simple and inexpensive, but it works marvelously for REW. Since I won't be using my SB Audigy 2 Platinum soundcard for REW anymore, I'll start a new thread and post my measurements. I should have time this weekend to get 'em up. 

Before stopping this thread, I would like to once again thank JohnM for his help. He really put a lot of time in and I greatly apreciate it .


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