# decisions, decisions...



## bozaman (May 30, 2008)

as the first step in the reinvention of my music/ht set-up, i have narrowed my speaker choice down to this "short" list:

paradigm studio 20
psb imagine b
aperion verus grand bookshelf

i've auditioned the paradigm's and will be giving the psb's a listen this weekend. the aperion's have great reviews and are at a significantly lower cost but i've not had any first-hand experience with them.

these will serve as the foundation of my music and ht hub, so i want a choice that i will be able to build upon in the future and will handle a range of musical genres (rock, classical, vocal, country, pop, dance/house, etc.) without breaking a sweat. the source components will also be changing out from my current set up, but my current (and new) gear will have more than sufficient power to drive any of these speakers (pre/pro, amp) from a variety of sources (including digital high-res flac).

budget considerations do matter, up to a maximum of ~$2k/pair. room size limitations are driving my search for bookshelf speakers and they will be supported by a sub for low-end frequencies.

which would you choose? do you have another alternative?


----------



## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

If this is your 1st post, welcome to the Forum. Have fun. Dennis


----------



## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

drdoan said:


> If this is your 1st post, welcome to the Forum. Have fun. Dennis



Yes I too agree.

As for the speakers, could you demo each of them in your home and see which is better to your *ears?*?


----------



## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

What sub? Will you be wanting a centre channel in the near future?


----------



## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

bozaman said:


> paradigm studio 20
> psb imagine b
> aperion verus grand bookshelf
> which would you choose? do you have another alternative?


From Classical to Rock, and dance > plus Home Theater - I would also put Focal on your list.
http://www.spearitsound.com/focal/focal_807v.asp


----------



## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Paradigm Studio 20, PSB Imagine B, or Aperion Verus Grand bookshelf. Good short list! :T

I like the Studio 20 a lot, especially the mids. The highs, not so much. The Imagine B is a very well rounded speaker, IMO.

I have not heard the Aperion. They have a risk free trial period. Why not get the Versus Grand and one or two of the others in your own room and listen for a few weeks? Hopefully you are near a dealer that will let you audition the B&M brands risk free, too.


----------



## bozaman (May 30, 2008)

good feedback from all - many thanks!

i have a velodyne sub that will fill in until i can identify a replacement but that will be after i've selected the speakers, but it's not the long-term answer as it's not all that good musically.

whichever brand is ultimately selected will come home with the matching center, and a smaller matched set of rears. at the risk of threadjacking my own thread i am basically approaching my hi-fi/ht project in this order:

1a. front mains + matching center
1b. matching rears
2. subwoofer
3a. replace avr with pre/pro-amp
3b. add multipurpose media transport (e.g., oppo bdp)
4. add dac + media server
5. upgrade hdtv

with that in mind, i'll circle back to my speaker short list.

the local b&m's will let me demo in my own home so that's a positive. i suppose that placing an order for the aperion's and then listening to all would be an idea worth pursuing.

i have not up to this point thought of the focal's, but i will definitely put them on the list to check out this weekend - thanks for the suggestion, jim z!

i will say that currently i'm leaning toward the paradigm's based on the in-store demo's i've had up to this point due in part to the terrific mid-range sound they have, but i also found the high's quite nice as well. for their size, the bass is also respectable but a sub will be a must for that punchy low-end.

the psb's were terrific in my initial demo but i want to go back for a more extended listening session. i did think their high's were a little more open compared to the paradigm's with comparable mids but less bass. again, it was only a very quick session so another listen is a must.

then there's the aperion's which have been praised quite a bit and i'm tempted to take a chance - the lower price is compelling.

so, i remain undecided until i have another listen or three and continue to welcome your feedback and recommendations. i'm especially interested in first-hand experience with the aperion's or other brands i've not yet considered (like the focal 807v's).

thanks!


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

bozaman said:


> these will serve as the foundation of my music and ht hub, so i want a choice that i will be able to build upon in the future and will handle a range of musical genres (rock, classical, vocal, country, pop, dance/house, etc.) without breaking a sweat. the source components will also be changing out from my current set up, but my current (and new) gear will have more than sufficient power to drive any of these speakers (pre/pro, amp) from a variety of sources (including digital high-res flac).
> 
> budget considerations do matter, up to a maximum of ~$2k/pair. room size limitations are driving my search for bookshelf speakers and they will be supported by a sub for low-end frequencies.
> 
> which would you choose? do you have another alternative?


Personally, out of those three, I would personally be inclined to knock the Studio 20s off the list. 

Second i'd like to point out that most bookshelves, when placed on a stand, generally have the exact same footprint as a floorstander. Both have their advantages and I definitely wouldn't rule either out based on room size. Small rooms do however require more attention in terms of optimizing sound at the end of it all so you may need more bass trapping, and absorption panels where in a larger rooms you could go with diffusion panels... that sort of thing. 

I agree with tesseract's point about auditioning in YOUR room because the room is a huge part in what we hear, and while we can improve issues with the room, we don't want to be misled by show room acoustics.

While the PSBs and Aperions i'm sure are balanced sounding speakers, I'll go ahead and name a few other options that, if I were you, would be my leading ones:

Vaporsound Breeze - like the above PSB and Aperions, this is in fact a small 2-driver bookshelf speaker so, like them, it's not quite suitable for "turning it up" but it does use one of the finest tweeters in the world... for 1k a pair you're getting quite a speaker. Remember, the limitation of a small woofer, even when crossed over to a sub, definitely exists in the upper bass and lower midrange. But realize, that you're basically getting around $700 worth of ultra high end tweeter... in a superbly voiced and well constructed $1000 speaker. 

ARX A5 - When you said "will handle a range of musical genres without breaking a sweat" I really wondered why you weren't looking at multi driver towers. Here's a tower that should do exactly that, and based on what i've read so far about the prototype... it looks to be a steal at its going price of around 800 a pair. I'm almost considering selling my EMPs to get two of these... and with their thin footprint they'll probably be smaller physically than even the stand mounts you're looking at. 

EMP e55ti - ...the above's not to say my EMPs aren't wonderful speakers. They measure extremely flat on axis, with a wide sweet spot and a surprisingly coherent soundstage. I honestly consider them an amazing deal at $800/pr - it's just that the guy that was evaluating the A5 prototype thinks the exact same thing about the EMPs! :yikes: - I think they're fabulous speakers with a neutral tonality as long as they're not too far from the wall.

Soundfield Audio Monitor 1 - If you want a stand mount that can belt out upper bass and midrange and blend seamlessly to a sub, this would be my option, no doubt. And that's not the only reason either. Because it uses a sweet coaxial midrange, it'll have a very coherent sound to it with a reduced dependancy on room acoustics to sound good. And it'll sound neutral.

Philharmonic Audio 1 / 2 - This one's raising the budget a bit from the previous choices, but the value is extremely good. You could probably treat the $1600 Phil 1s as a $5000 caliber speaker - no exaggeration. The Phil 2s take it a step further by upgrading from a great tweeter to the same tweeter I was talking about above. 

JTR Triple 8HT-LP - All of the above are fine speakers in their own right, but none of them have high efficiency. Like the soundfields, the JTRs have the coherency and room independancy of a coaxial midrange/tweeter, but these things are ultra sensitive. That means they can play louder than anything above without ever "sounding" like they're playing loud. However the price speaks for itself - it edges just over your $2000 budget. In a smaller room it might not be necessary to have high efficiency/high output though, so it might be redundant.

Other speakers that I would also personally consider:

JBL LSR 2328
Ascend Sierra Tower
Salk SongTower

Good luck. :TT - I know I may have overwhelmed you but I figure if you're spending all that money, it's worth while to weigh many options. Yes, it's difficult to guage the value of an internet direct speaker and some can actually be a mess just like some brick and mortar speakers can be great and some can be a mess. But I do personally believe in the high value of internet direct FWIW.


----------



## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

I enjoy my Axiom M22 bookshelfs and the match VP180 centre. They also come with a 30 day in home return policy. 

I too am and advocate of listening in Your room. I have had the experience of listening to a speaker at a local audio store thinking they sounded amazing then finding they sounded mediocore in my room. Of course the store said they could "adjust" my room for a price. It hurt to sit down for a while after that debacle...:spend:


----------



## bozaman (May 30, 2008)

GranteedEV...

you left me a lot of great info, the kind i was hoping to get from the board! options and alternatives are awesome and i will look into each of them in more detail over the next few days. i personally have no fear or concern with an internet-based vendor as they typically offer the best value for money provided you are careful and do some research on the product and customer experiences.

you also touched on a topic that i've debated in my own mind - tower vs. monitor/bookshelf. the point regarding the amount of space taken up by both is valid, but in my own mind i was ultimately concerned about the room being overwhelmed with a full size tower. (as a sidebar, when i started demoing various models at the local b&m's i was intent on getting a tower and in nearly every case the sales team tried to push me towards a monitor/bookshelf. i ultimately came to the monitor/bookshelf solution after my own consideration of needs, and space constraints.)

so, i am certainly open to consideration of a tower if that truly makes the most sense. i've had opportunity to demo a few towers, and will certainly keep an open mind on that topic.

for everyone's benefit, i am also in complete agreement that an in-home demo is the BEST demo and i will be working to make that happen for as many product "finalists" as possible.


----------



## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

One good thing about a well thought out tower is that floor bounce null is compensated for in the design. This is a big problem with most stand mount speakers.


----------



## bozaman (May 30, 2008)

ok, so considering the tower option i've looked at the paradigm studio 60's, the golden ear triton 2's, and the b&w cm8's, and even a pair of martin-logan electromotion esl's. considered but not heard lines include the psb imaine t's, aperion verus grand/forte, focal, and any number of other brands.

i was especially interested in the golden ear triton 2's based on the glowing reviews but after an extended in-store demo i came to the conclusion that they are not the best option for me (despite the reviews). the paradigm studio 60's were my preference before i flip-flopped to the monitor/bookshelf solution.

but, i will definitely expand my scope of consideration!


----------



## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

You should give the Golden Ear Triton 2 another chance. There should be nothing not to like about those speakers. I would blame the set up if they don't impress. 

I A/B'ed the the Triton 2 with the B&W Nautilus sea shells! They held their own, no problem.


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

> , but in my own mind i was ultimately concerned about the room being overwhelmed with a full size tower.


Intuitively, this logic has never made sense to me.

If two speakers have the same frequency response, what will make the larger speaker "overwhelm" the room? Now the larger speaker may be more capable of uncompressed dynamic range / max volume. But at the same volume, I guess I just don't "get it". 

If you ask me,_ all_ well designed speakers will probably overwhelm small rooms in the bass because of the intensity of standing waves. Speakers that play deeper might benefit from room gain, but i don't think suffocating usable extension is the solution. The speakers that are more likely to overwhelm a small room are imo

- Those with unbalanced off axis energy from about 800hz to 5khz - the critical upper midrange and lower treble
- Those with a mid bass response peaking
- Those with full (6db) baffle step compensation.

Beyond that, i'd say a well designed tower will have balanced treble energy, well tuned bass, and generally most commercial speakers have about ~3db of BSC which is reasonably versatile, albeit for example, my EMP e55tis, for my large room and far from boundaries placement, may have worked best with ~1.5db more and I do manually EQ it up by that amount.. 

An indicator of a speaker with full BSC is if it says "2.5 way" in the literature - and indeed the Studio 20s' sibling, the Paradigm Studio 60s for example, are one such speaker so I can imagine it being a poor fit for the majority of smaller rooms out there. That said, not all 2.5 ways are necessarily full 6db BSC designs, although most are by definition. There are, btw, bookshelf 2.5 ways ;P

Now regarding deep bass, I'm of the opinion that it's 99% unlikely for any speaker's transfer function to mate perfectly with a given room's transfer function (not to mention the advent of standing waves). In essense, i'd say unless you opt for speakers that produce no deep bass at all, chances are you won't have flat response no matter what the room size or speaker size - it might be too little or too much, not likely just right. Many including myself always recommend multiple (three or four) subwoofers and global EQ for ANY hi fidelity system. With EQ, you tailor the system response to be properly flat in any region where you're experiencing pressure vessel gain. And no, EQ does not have a poor effect on fidelity, at least if it's properly implemented in bass where the room dominates the sound.


----------



## xmaoo190 (Oct 20, 2011)

Did you ever consider Martin Logan?


----------



## bozaman (May 30, 2008)

ok, i've made my decision and i've come full circle and wound up back where i started.

i will be placing an order for a pair of paradigm studio 60's with a matching cc-590 center.

in the end i came to the opinion that i could chase this for months on end and maybe never make a decision. the choices are extensive, with many capable offerings so this isn't to say that the paradigm's are "better" than another but i just don't have the time or patience to stretch this out forever.

so, i've also decided on a full tower and not a bookshelf. the towers just had a smoother response, with a wonderful sound that was both natural and non-fatguing in several extended listening sessions. it's a winner to my ears.

thanks to all. i'm now moving on to my next steps in this upgrade process.


----------



## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks for the update, bozaman. Keep us informed regarding your next steps.


----------



## redsandvb (Dec 2, 2009)

EDIT: Oops! After posting this I realized I missed the last couple of posts where I see you've already decided...




bozaman said:


> as the first step in the reinvention of my music/ht set-up, i have narrowed my speaker choice down to this "short" list:
> 
> paradigm studio 20
> psb imagine b
> ...


I'm not as knowledgeable as the other posters here but I'd also throw in Ascend Acoustics as something to try out. I'm disabled and it's very difficult for me to get out to places and listen to various brands and compare things for myself so I spend time lurking around a few of the AV forums out there getting a feel for opinions on different brands/things. Based only on what I gathered online, I bought their CMT-340 SE mains and have been very happy. With your $2k max their Sierra-1 (or even better, the Sierra-1 NrT) bookshelves would be great.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/spkrlist.html


----------



## bozaman (May 30, 2008)

ok...

back to being mildly indecisive, i'm going to give the aperions a trial before i fully commit to the paradigm's. the value proposition and reviews are both very high and i think it's worth a flier to give them a shot.

i'll post up my thoughts once i get them delivered.

thanks for everyone's patience and understanding.


----------



## redsandvb (Dec 2, 2009)

Just to add to my post above...since you haven't fully committed yet 

I don't have the know how these other posters do to describe the sound of the Ascends, but they're also pretty well regarded...as are the other brands mentioned. All I can say is that I like them more than the Paradigm Monitor 5 v.3 mains I also have. A few posters have said they (the Ascend 340 SEs) are more like the Studio line than they are the Monitors. They're about the same price as the Versus Grand bookshelves. They also have a 30 day trial, but I think you pay return shipping...?

The Sierra-1 and the Sierra-1 NrT (need to contact them to upgrade, I think) are the ones I really wish I had...

Just FYI, Sierra-1 review
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/ascend-acoustics-sierra-1

Bunch of other Ascend reviews
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/reviews/proreviews.html


----------



## bozaman (May 30, 2008)

redsandvb...

thanks for the feedback on the ascend's. the reviews look compelling, no question. i'll add them to my list for further investigation.


----------

