# Input on a move from Bookshelf to Towers



## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Hey Guys -

I value your opinions, so I'm curious to hear your responses. 

I really like my Polk Audio RTiA set-up... so I'm not interested in buying a different brand (this is not really a question about critiquing my speakers :nerd... currently I have Polk's CSiA6 center, bookshelf RTiA3's on stands, and then Polk surrounds. 

The sound, in general, is great --- sometimes wonderful (the imaging can be really great) --- sometimes it feels like something is missing in the mids... almost like there is a gap between the lower mids and subs.


The RTiA3's have a tweeter and a 6 1/2" driver. I have an opportunity to buy RTiA5 floor standing speakers. They are more sensitive, by 1 dB, but add in a second 6 1/2" driver (along with a larger port at the bottom of the tower)...

I don't have a place to demo these speakers... so I'm wondering what you guys think?

I've read a lot about the pro's and con's of bookshelf on stands vs tower speakers. The primary pro for bookshelf's being they have cabinets that are more inert... and the primary pro for towers being lower extension. My room is 13' W X 17' L, 8 1/2' Tall.

So, just curious, if you guys could follow the links and look at these two speakers... :innocent:

Curious to know if you think I would be making nothing but positive gains by going to the A5's... or if I should just keep on rolling.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

You didn't mention what the speakers are used for, so I'm going to guess HT (or at least primarily HT).

The 6.5" driver in the CSiA6 shouldn't really be missing any midrange, especially when you consider it's in a bass reflex cabinet with a -3dB point of 55Hz. My room is the same size as yours and I'm using the NHT Absolute Zero, with a 5.25" midrange, and there really isn't a midrange deficiency. Is it possible they aren't tune properly? What's your crossover set for? What subwoofer do you have? Did you run your AVR's room correction software?




27dnast said:


> The sound, in general, is great --- sometimes wonderful (the imaging can be really great) --- sometimes it feels like something is missing in the mids... almost like there is a gap between the lower mids and subs.


I wonder if the source material is the culprit instead of the speakers. It sounds like most of the time you're quite please, but every once in a while something appears to be missing. It might be what you're listening to, not what you're listening on.


All that being said... you may just be the type of person who would enjoy the fuller sound of the RTiA5's, because for sure they'll have more presence then the RTiA3's are capable of producing. If you can get them at a reasonable price if could potentially be a worthwhile upgrade for you, but first I would ensure what you have is properly tuned.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Thanks for the response, appreciate it!:T

*


theJman said:



You didn't mention what the speakers are used for, so I'm going to guess HT (or at least primarily HT).

Click to expand...

*Yes, 100% HT


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theJman said:



The 6.5" driver in the CSiA6 shouldn't really be missing any midrange, especially when you consider it's in a bass reflex cabinet with a -3dB point of 55Hz. My room is the same size as yours and I'm using the NHT Absolute Zero, with a 5.25" midrange, and there really isn't a midrange deficiency. Is it possible they aren't tune properly? What's your crossover set for? What subwoofer do you have? Did you run your AVR's room correction software?

Click to expand...

*Just to clarify, the A5's would actually replace the RTiA3's (the CSiA6 is my center). Yes, they all do have 6.5" drivers. The CSiA6 has 2 drivers ... the RTiA3's have one driver... the A5's have two drivers.

My crossover is set at 80hz... I have one HSU VTF2-MK4 sub (and an Energy S10.3 that in the mix to get rid of null in the room).

My AVR is an Elite VSX21-THX. I did run MCACC (I've spent a lot of time fooling around with it and am confident it was implemented correctly). The room is also acoustically treated.



*


theJman said:



I wonder if the source material is the culprit instead of the speakers. It sounds like most of the time you're quite please, but every once in a while something appears to be missing. It might be what you're listening to, not what you're listening on.

Click to expand...

*

I know what you are getting at... I've definitely heard differences across source material. Primarily, all we watch in our HT comes off of blu-ray (fed to the AVR via HDMI).

*


theJman said:



All that being said... you may just be the type of person who would enjoy the fuller sound of the RTiA5's, because for sure they'll have more presence then the RTiA3's are capable of producing. If you can get them at a reasonable price if could potentially be a worthwhile upgrade for you, but first I would ensure what you have is properly tuned.

Click to expand...

*

I guess what I'm wondering is just this... would going from bookshelf speakers on stands (with one 6.5" driver each) to two towers featuring two 6.5" drivers each --- along with the bigger enclosures --- give a much wider, deeper, warmer sound... would they blend better with the subs?

Or, would I be loosing some of the clarity and imaging that we enjoy? Would they be too much for my room? Or would the difference be essentially so minor that getting the A5's would be a waste of time and resources?



I wish I could pop-in somewhere and hear them... they just aren't demo-ed anywhere in my area.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

27dnast said:


> Just to clarify, the A5's would actually replace the RTiA3's (the CSiA6 is my center). Yes, they all do have 6.5" drivers. The CSiA6 has 2 drivers ... the RTiA3's have one driver... the A5's have two drivers.


Yea, that was a typo on my part. I knew what I was thinking, but apparently my fingers didn't comply. :dontknow:




27dnast said:


> My crossover is set at 80hz... I have one HSU VTF2-MK4 sub (and an Energy S10.3 that in the mix to get rid of null in the room).
> 
> My AVR is an Elite VSX21-THX. I did run MCACC (I've spent a lot of time fooling around with it and am confident it was implemented correctly). The room is also acoustically treated.


Subwoofers are both good, AVR is too. MCACC isn't the best, but you obviously know what you're doing so if it does set something wrong you seem capable of identifying and correcting it. Integrating two disparate subs can be a bit of a pain though.




27dnast said:


> I guess what I'm wondering is just this... would going from bookshelf speakers on stands (with one 6.5" driver each) to two towers featuring two 6.5" drivers each --- along with the bigger enclosures --- give a much wider, deeper, warmer sound... would they blend better with the subs?
> 
> Or, would I be loosing some of the clarity and imaging that we enjoy? Would they be too much for my room? Or would the difference be essentially so minor that getting the A5's would be a waste of time and resources?


I can't say if the soundstage would be wider, but deeper and richer are almost a guarantee. You'd also gain additional headroom, so if you like it loud that's a benefit. I'm not certain I would want that much of a front sound stage in a 13x17 room, but that's just my opinion - you may feel differently. I doubt the difference would be minor though. I suspect it would be pretty noticeable, especially for movies. Regular TV maybe not so much.

Does the place you're purchasing from have a 30 day return policy?


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## kadijk (Jan 23, 2011)

If I was you I'd be tempted, if the deal is good enough on the rtia 5's, to get them as fronts, and move the a-3's to your surround position(if that's even possible in your scenario). There's no drawbacks to fuller sound up front, and the extra size and driver of the a-5's will not reduce the upper end clarity. I use rti-10's as fronts and surrounds, and there are no negatives in my mind. I'll upgrade someday of course, but for now they blow me away and all my movie guests as well. 
Like I said, for me the tipping point would be the "deal" I could get them for. I hate paying "full retail".


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

theJman said:


> I can't say if the soundstage would be wider, but deeper and richer are almost a guarantee. You'd also gain additional headroom, so if you like it loud that's a benefit. I'm not certain I would want that much of a front sound stage in a 13x17 room, but that's just my opinion - you may feel differently. I doubt the difference would be minor though. I suspect it would be pretty noticeable, especially for movies. Regular TV maybe not so much.
> 
> Does the place you're purchasing from have a 30 day return policy?


Could you clarify what you mean about "that much of a front stage"? That is one of my concerns... the RTiA5's are just going to be too much speaker for the space. Although, they aren't exactly large towers...

Really, I would love for more depth to the sound if I can keep the clarity that we enjoy now...


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

I'm a big proponent of floor standers. Could be that you lose a bit in the imaging department, but as Jim has note, bigger, deeper, wider, richer, fuller. I'd say a positive as long as the cost is not an issue.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

kadijk said:


> If I was you I'd be tempted, if the deal is good enough on the rtia 5's, to get them as fronts, and move the a-3's to your surround position(if that's even possible in your scenario). There's no drawbacks to fuller sound up front, and the extra size and driver of the a-5's will not reduce the upper end clarity. I use rti-10's as fronts and surrounds, and there are no negatives in my mind. I'll upgrade someday of course, but for now they blow me away and all my movie guests as well.
> Like I said, for me the tipping point would be the "deal" I could get them for. I hate paying "full retail".


The deal is great -- they are from Polk Direct (refurb, which I have absolutely zero problem buying from Polk)... it would cost a $460 for the A5's (It's about $720 to buy them from NewEgg... and about $800 from Crutchfield). I suspect that I probably paid about that much for my A3's plus their speaker stands. 

Unfortunately, this means that I would have to pay return shipping if they didn't work out. That would probably run me $80 or so?

I can't move the A3's to the rear due to space constraints... but I think I could probably sell them for about $250. I would imagine I could sell the stands for $60 on craigslist (if they sold). The cost could be relatively negligible.

I am very - very - curious to know if the A5's would be like the A3's "and some"... adding a new dimension to the sound... or if they are too large for my room (?) or simply not as sharp and precise as the A3's.

:innocent:


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

nova said:


> I'm a big proponent of floor standers. Could be that you lose a bit in the imaging department, but as Jim has note, bigger, deeper, wider, richer, fuller. I'd say a positive as long as the cost is not an issue.


This applies for floor standers paired with external subs?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

27dnast said:


> Could you clarify what you mean about "that much of a front stage"? That is one of my concerns... the RTiA5's are just going to be too much speaker for the space. Although, they aren't exactly large towers...


I'm not one of those people who listens at reference level, because for me that's simply too loud. Some are though, so they need a monster setup - I can make do with something a bit more modest. The RTiA5's have a 90dB efficiency rating, meaning it won't take a lot of twisting on the volume knob to get them playing with authority. That's actually one of the reasons I'm more partial to inefficient speakers; I like the greater volume control afforded because they tend to be less "hyper" in that regard.

If your front soundstage is on the 17' wall -- so you're at best 10' away -- that's probably more then I would want. However, if they're on the 13' wall -- and you're 15' or so away -- that might make me rethink it, because they may not overwhelm then. It all depends upon placement, and your own personal preference. As you can see from kadijk and nova's responses, opinions vary; they would be more then happy with the larger speakers.

What I wouldn't expect to happen is a lose of clarity though. It's hard to imagine that you would get a more expensive speaker from the same company and have it be inferior. That seems unlikely.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Hmmm... interesting.

They would be placed on the 13' wall... firing into the room that is 17' deep. Seating is about 11 ft away at the most.

I really would hate to go through this exercise an find that the speakers are really too much for the room. That being said, these A5's are essentially A3's with one extra driver... the next models up (The A7's and the A9's) add two and three woofers into the mix. But, honestly, since I have the subs X-ed at 80hz, I don't really see the need to add towers in that have mid range drivers and woofers. Seems like it would all be for not.

That's why there is a part of me that wonders if the A3's, in my set-up, would hammer away nearly as well as the A5's. Man, I wish there were a place that had these set up in a listening room...


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

In the Pioneers menu trying changing the "speaker size" under MCACC to Large. re-run. If still a problem decrease crossover to 70hz.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

I've tried fiddling with that. The only x-over options are 50, 80, 100, 120.

Honestly, didn't hear a difference between 50 and 80 except less low end! ;-)

Don't want to over paint this as a problem... Just on a quest to squeeze the most out of what I have and can - or, should I say could, add.


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## kadijk (Jan 23, 2011)

You could always "risk" trying the a-5's, and if you really aren't impressed, sell them on Craig's list or whatever online classified service you like. If the deals good enough, you should get your money back. My bet, if I had to bet, is that you'll like them. I'm around 12' back from the front baffle of my rti-10's, and they are a TMWW arrangement, and I have them bi-amped. It's ok to have to turn them down a bit. Rather that than be maxed out all the time, I think.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Yeah, I'm not so concerned about the sensitivity... My csia6 has a 90dB sensitivity... the RTiA3's are 89... not that big of a difference.

And I agree with you...I could always sell them locally... even though that could turn out to be a pain! 

My main reservation is going through this whole exercise... putting money out the door, etc. only to have an end result that isn't "better." Know what I mean?


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

It sounds to me as though you're attempting to talk yourself into the upgrade. I also think you will be pleased and say go for it and don't look back.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

You know what? You guys are awesome... HTS is quite a cool forum.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

JBrax said:


> It sounds to me as though you're attempting to talk yourself into the upgrade.


I was getting that feeling too, which is why I backed away from the conversation. :TT

Guess the only thing left at this point is for 27dnast to tell us what he thinks of his new speakers when he gets them...


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

It's only a matter of time. .


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

I waited for a bit to chime in because I was thinking the same thing. :bigsmile: Now, time to add the straw..... 

When I was first starting to look for speakers, I was open to doing either bookshelves or towers for the L/R. One of the first places I went had a set of bookshelves set up in the same room with a few of the speakers I wanted to audition. After listening to both in the same space, I then firmly decided on towers. It was just a much more immersive feeling for me. Perhaps it was the size that made me think it was more - who knows - but I can say for certainty that it just felt more immersive....


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

27dnast said:


> This applies for floor standers paired with external subs?


Yes, definitely want a sub as well, even the best floor standers start to roll-off much too soon not to have a sub in the mix. I also believe in running the front L&R speakers full range (as long as you have the power). My opinions are based on my set-up, my equipment and my room. I have a number of bookshelf, bi-di poles, floor standers and subs. I have done a lot of experimenting with different speakers, positions, crossover settings etc. No matter how the bookshelf speakers were set up the floor standers sounded better. What I ended up with is 2 floor standers, a center, 2 bi-di, and 1 sub, L&R full range, center and surrounds crossed over at 60Hz and a sub up front between the mains.

Of course my set-up is probably not the best for everyone.

I also don't think a speaker can be too big for a room, unless it just physically dominates the space. A good speaker will be true to the source material and you will only hear what was intended.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Alright. 

Thanks for all of the replies.

No thanks for pushing me over the edge... I think.:whistling:

:spend: I'll let you all know how this turns out... hopefully my wife won't mind (I've already dumped a ton of $ in upgrades this year:devil


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Towers are arriving Tuesday! Wife stamp of approval was surprisingly high and indifferent.

Why was this so easy?

Hmmm.... Too easy...


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

My guess is there's a surprise trip to your mother-in-laws in your future...


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Ha. That made me laugh.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Alright. A report back. Towers are here and installed. I've been having some issues with my HSU sub (there is a thread going in the sub section)... so it's taken me a while to get back around to this thread!

Here are my initial impressions: very hard to tell any difference between the new A5 towers and my old A3 monitors on stands. I think if I sat any of you down, blind folded, and ran through some movie scenes, you wouldn't be able to discern between the two if I kept switching them. If anything, I think the sound field in the front of my HT is less dispersed with the towers... sounds are more localized to the speakers (Does that make sense)? Also, I **think** that the monitors almost interacted more smoothly with the subs. This could all be in my head, tho... hard to say. I know that I'm probably being waay more particular and tuned into the sound coming from the speakers than normal.

I broke them in for a good 20 hours... 2 channel... I did notice the bass and bass extension was significantly different in this set-up. No question. The towers are way thicker in the lower end when run by themselves.

But running a movie --- for the life of me I can't tell a difference with the exception of sound from the towers being a little more localized (I think). Really... I can't. Sort of bums me out --- a lot to go through for what I think is nearly a lateral move - especially considering my HT is 100% movies. I haven't had a lot of time on my hands to mess with the system over the last week. I was thinking of re-installing the monitors... re-calibrating under another save setting and then doing comparison listening tests.


Now... something strange did happen. I've have been combing over my settings and MCACC results and I don't see anything out of the ordinary... but my bass shakers have been running REALLY hot (intense). Without going on specifics... for years now the amp running the bass shakers has been set on a volume of +7. This has been a perfect setting. Not to intense... just right. Let me tell you... +7 now is causing the amp to shut off and the shakers are firing REALLY strong.... TOO STRONG. I've turned it waaay down to -5... and they are still on the edge of being a bit too much. Also, I've typically run my subs with a channel setting (on my primary AVR) of 0. Since I've run MCACC for the towers, I have the sub channel setting down to -4. 

I've also noticed the LED output lights on my BFD have been getting up into the orange... which tells me that the output from my amp is a lot hotter than normal... I don't ever remember seeing that. All of this is very strange since all I did was disconnect my monitors... connect the new towers... run MCACC. I didn't mess with the BFD, my bass shaker amp, or the sub at all. It was a very simple process... yet so much seems to have changed. Real head scratcher...


Does any of that make any sense?:huh:


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Have you tried moving the speakers forward/back about 6"?

If the speakers are sitting on a table top or have ports sometimes a little adjustment in placement can make all the difference.

If this has already been suggested I'm sorry. I didn't take the time to read all the posts.


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## kadijk (Jan 23, 2011)

I feel like I should chime in seeing as I encouraged you confidently that there would be a significant and noticeable improvement. I have no idea about what's happening with your amps. Seems strange. As far as sound field goes, I would experiment with crossover levels, placement, and distance to boundaries near by. Even inches can make big differences. Give them room to breathe. Do you have a 7 channel receiver? Try bi-amping. Might be that they're a little power hungry. I'm sorry that the change hasn't been as easy or obvious to implement. Keep us posted.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Thanks for the tips! No need to apologize... Definitely not!! ;-). I'll keep tinkering ))

Very curious about my amps... Seriously curious. Especially the bass shaker situation. It used to seem that I couldn't get enough juice out of them... Now it seems like they are oozing juice!!! They have a low pass filter at 50hz, so the MCACC re-calibration couldn't have affected them. It is really bizarre. I'll get to the bottom of it. Or, I'll tinker enough to find new settings that are pleasing.


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

When you get a little time to experiment I'd suggest trying both the A5 & A3 speakers in PURE DIRECT mode. This will by-pass all digital processing and allow you to compare just the speakers to each other.


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

nova said:


> Yes, definitely want a sub as well, even the best floor standers start to roll-off much too soon not to have a sub in the mix.


I am sorry, but this is simply not an accurate statement.

For example: The Infinity RS-I's, or the McIntosh XRT2K (I found the high-end diffuse, but the 6 - 12" long-throw woofers per-speaker went very low.

To hit ones that I have at some point owned: I ran my Infinity RS-IIIb's without subs, also my B&W 801's and a pair of custom-builds.



> I also don't think a speaker can be too big for a room, unless it just physically dominates the space. A good speaker will be true to the source material and you will only hear what was intended.


Perhaps not: but listening distance is affected by design (at least as we start approaching extremes).

For example: The XRT2K problem I mentioned may have been mitigated in a much larger space. I find that tweeter arrays don't sound point-source enough up-close but work well in larger venues (like movie theaters).


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

nova:
You can't generalize about floor standers. The "best" floor standers I've heard need no help in the low end. Of course your best and my best may not be the same. For the best floor standers I offer, the Alexandria XLF from Wilson Audio. It's rated to be -3dB at 19.5Hz. Or, how about the Genesis 2.2Jr, it's rated to be -3dB at 16Hz. Admittedly they are large and very expensive but they don't need a sub woofer. For a speaker that's somewhat real world, how about the Legacy Audio Helix. It's rated -2dB at 16Hz. No sub woofer needed here either.

BTW, none of the speakers I've listed are TOTL for their respective manufacturers.

I'll even throw out a true bargain, the VMPS RM40 which is -3dB @ 24Hz for $5K a pair. Only a very few of the better sub woofers come close to that. This is also not TOTL for VMPS.

I also agree with JL about speakers and room size. For instance John Dunlavy of Duntech and Dunlavy builds large floor standers with a specified minimum listening distance. (Duntech SC-IV's have a minimum listening distance of 9' and preferably more.) Any large floor stander needs room for the sound from the various drivers to coalesce. This can't happen at less than optimum listening distances. Some rooms are just not large enough to allow for that minimum distance.


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

No need to be sorry, I made some rather broad generalizations. In hindsight I should have prefaced my statements with "many floor standers" or maybe even "the vast majority of floor standers" rather than "even the best" or something along those lines.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Breathing life back into an otherwise dead thread...:devil:

So it's been a few weeks... I've been tinkering and breaking these puppies in. They are up to about 50 hours or so. At the end of the day, I think the move was....


worth it.

I really do. I know this is a bit of a 180 from my initial impressions. Initially, could definitely hear a noticeable and distinct difference between the A5's and A3's in two channel (I ran them in this mode for about 20 hours to kick-start the break-in process). But my first runs with HT in 7.2 mode were not as obvious. But...

The A5's are really starting to open-up and sing. They are humming away. The sound stage has opened up. I think, in particular, these speakers shine when there is any kind of substantial music in a movie. They offer up a richer/fuller experience. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's leaps and bounds better for H... but I will go on record as to say it was a worth while move.

I'm feeling good. I think the RTiA line is a great speaker line, perfect for me... definitely will be sticking with these guys.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Great to hear mate - thanks for taking the time to give us an update!


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## kadijk (Jan 23, 2011)

I'm really glad to hear you've noticed an improvement. It's risky to think about upgrades and changes when what you have is already somewhat satisfying. I think my Polks got better with use as well. I didn't have the luxury of having existing speakers to compare to, though. So the change was less noticeable. Thanks for the update.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

sure thing! Based on what has happened, I'm positive that these A5's will only continue to open up much like my A3's did. It's pretty amazing how a soundstage breathes to life and grows.

I wish I could keep the A3's and use them as rears... but they are just slightly too big and the wall mounts for my rears are going to have a real hard time holding them. I guess I could attempt to mount them, but the thought of trying to take down the 4's I currently have there is a bit detracting. :devil: 

I guess I will look to sell... hopefully I can get something out of the A3's along with their stands.


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