# 100% absolute unequivocal complete ignorance of room treatment.



## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Hey acoustical room treatment gurus. As the title implied, I am totally clueless, and this is the very first time I have even opened up such a forum, but I would like to learn.

Short of spending hours reading through threads that I am not even sure of which ones to read, please help.

For a main living room where asthetics rule, what are some of the first options one should consider to improve acoustics. I am also interested in improving bass response.

Thanks if anyone can point me in the right direction of what option(s) to research.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Start here: www.gikacoustics.com


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Thanks Kal. I saw the advertisement and started checking them out already! Wow, this is going to be very difficult in my room. Only have one corner in the whole room in which I could place a bass trap, but this won't be an option asthetically. Going to have to dig in to see if I can find some viable options to consider.


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## phazewolf (Feb 5, 2012)

Well the first thing you can do which cost nothing to try is moving the speakers and where you sit. Post a diagram of the room and what you can and can't move and people can help you out more.

Have you tried moving the sub around and see if there was a better place for it? Or maybe a second sub if it is a large room so to even out the bass overall.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Agreed. Post a rough floorplan so we can see what's going on. Maybe a few pictures so we can get an idea of decor, furnishings, etc.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Bear123 said:


> For a main living room where asthetics rule, what are some of the first options one should consider to improve acoustics.


Hi Bear,
When you say "improve acoustics", do you mean perceptually, what you hear, or something else?
What specifically, is wrong now? HT dialog? Seat to seat consistency? Stereo imaging? What needs improvement? Is this a problem in search of a solution, or a solution in search of a problem?



Bear123 said:


> I am also interested in improving bass response.


Please see above, thanks. 
Is there boom at every seat? Have you moved the subs around? Already used EQ to cut peaks at LP?

cheers


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Well, I suppose that the answer is that I don't really know what I want to improve. Sort of like the dude with the Bose Acoustimass that does not know it sucks. The difference is, I know my room probably sucks for acoustics, I just don't know why, what to do about it, or what to expect for improvement.:scratch: My room is very inflexible. Speaker locations are fixed due to custom built in bookshelves along front wall flanking a fireplace. Sub location is fixed, although I can run duals for smoothing in a small nearfield location. I did this and it helped alot. Here is my room:........dang...i drew it today but lost it. I will look for it and post it.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Don't be discouraged because you can't specifically identify an issue. This is where AJ and I differ. Just because you can't specifically identify a problem does not mean that there is not room for improvement. He works on the idea that if there is no perceived problem, then there's nothing to fix.

If you would post some pictures and a rough floorplan, we can help with basic recommendations that pretty much any room can use improvment - addressing reflections, taming excessive bass boom/decay time/etc. Fixed seat and speaker positions do make thing a little tougher as many times, movement in those items can yield large improvements.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Bear123 said:


> Well, I suppose that the answer is that I don't really know what I want to improve. Sort of like the dude with the Bose Acoustimass that does not know it sucks. The difference is, I know my room probably sucks for acoustics, I just don't know why, what to do about it, or what to expect for improvement.:scratch:


Ok Bear, you go to the doctor:
Hey doc, I need treatment.
For what?
Don't know. But I know treatment will make me better.
You feel ill? Experiencing symptoms of something? Pain? Dizziness? What?
Nope, feel fine, no symptoms.
Uhhh, ok, take two aspirin, call me in the morning.

The Bose thing is a poor analogy. We know exactly what's wrong/poor with the sound. Your room? Hardly. What makes you think "treatment" can't make your room worse? Do you think strong medications when you aren't ill is a good idea?
I threw out a couple symptoms at you previously. Any apply?
The vast majority of living rooms are perfectly fine perceptually. Conversations can be heard. Surround and stereo systems can work just fine. Now if you decide to put a Bose Acoustimass in there, well, that's on you. Now you've created your dilemma.



Bear123 said:


> My room is very inflexible. Speaker locations are fixed due to custom built in bookshelves along front wall flanking a fireplace. Sub location is fixed, although I can run duals for smoothing in a small nearfield location. I did this and it helped alot. Here is my room:........dang...i drew it today but lost it. I will look for it and post it.


Most "living" rooms have stuff in them. Yes, pics/layout etc helps. But so does "what's wrong with the sound", reaching your ears. IMHO.

cheers


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## Babak (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi 

I'm afraid I must agree here. 

I've seen several threads (also recently) where people just wanted to add acoustic treatment to their rooms without any specific needs. 

The discussions are like :
"I read that many people add bass traps to their room. Where shall I put them in my room? (drawing of the room added)".

It seems that some want to add treatment for the treatments sake.

I would also recommend critical listening with different recordings and try to find out :

- Is the soundstage ok?
- Can I localise all the instuments well? 
- Are there any colorations, are instruments too thin or too fat?
- Is the bass boomy, or single bass nodes?
- Can I hear the kick drum well or is it disappearing below some low frequency mud?

This would give some first ideas. 

Posting a room layout would definitely help. 

Cheers 
Babak


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Babak said:


> Hi
> I'm afraid I must agree here.
> I've seen several threads (also recently) where people just wanted to add acoustic treatment to their rooms without any specific needs.
> 
> ...


I do agree but it is reasonable to consider that most people have no way of knowing how/if their system is subject to these problems because (1) we all adapt to the constant exposure to one's own system, warts and all, (2) there are no easy comparisons because of the fleetness of auditory memory and (3) they do not have the advantage of any objective measurements.

So, before anyone spends money on treatments, one should do a few measurements with inexpensive equipment. Any(!) inexpensive USB microphone and REW will tell you a lot about the room and system and what you might be hearing that you were not aware of before. What you do from there is up to you but, even if the decision is not to add treatments, you will be more educated about sound and, particularly, the sound in your own system and more able to answer BABAK's set of questions.

(I say this even though I disagree with AJINFLA and believe that the majority of rooms can benefit substantially from acoustic attention and/or treatment.)


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Good advice Kal.

I tend to be a bit more conservative about treatments than many here, but I find AJ and some others generalize too much. Treatments should be targeted and one should have specific goals in mind either in terms of response and imaging, or both. That requires both listening and measuring. Neither is sufficient alone, IMO.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Kal Rubinson said:


> ..but it is reasonable to consider that most people have no way of knowing how/if their system is subject to these problems because (1) we all adapt to the constant exposure to one's own system, warts and all, (2) there are no easy comparisons because of the fleetness of auditory memory and (3) they do not have the advantage of any objective measurements.


Well, I disagree.
Even with all three realities, the listener should still be able to judge whether the soundfield has problems/pleases them. Yes, some measurements may show why, while others will lead to false conclusions (which is why you read about people shutting of "room corrections" in favor of "uncorrected", etc, etc).
People should stop believing that the *preference* of others (yes, including mine), will be theirs...and start to trust their own perceptions.
If a person cannot perceive, much less describe, what is wrong with their sound, I see no rational approach to "treatment".



Kal Rubinson said:


> So, before anyone spends money on treatments, one should do a few measurements with inexpensive equipment. Any(!) inexpensive USB microphone and REW will tell you a lot about the room and system and what you might be hearing that you were not aware of before. What you do from there is up to you but, even if the decision is not to add treatments, you will be more educated about sound and, particularly, the sound in your own system and more able to answer BABAK's set of questions.





Kal Rubinson said:


> So, before anyone spends money on treatments, one should do a few measurements with inexpensive equipment. Any(!) inexpensive USB microphone and REW will tell you a lot about the room and system and what you might be hearing that you were not aware of before. What you do from there is up to you but, even if the decision is not to add treatments, you will be more educated about sound and, particularly, the sound in your own system and more able to answer BABAK's set of questions.


No measurement is needed for a listener to answer any of those questions.
However, if the answer is "no" to all but the fourth, then measurements...and _possibly_ "treatments" are required.
IOW, my philosophy is to seek solutions to problems, not problems for solutions. "Treatments", in living rooms IMHO, should be a last, not first resort. After exhausting all other possibilities. Like "decor" and "location" of sound sources, etc, etc.



Kal Rubinson said:


> (I say this even though I disagree with AJINFLA and believe that the majority of rooms can benefit substantially from acoustic attention and/or treatment.)


Based on my experience, perceptions and preference, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Stop by my room at a show sometime.

cheers


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

lcaillo said:


> Treatments should be targeted and one should have specific goals in mind either in terms of response and imaging, or both. That requires both listening and measuring. Neither is sufficient alone, IMO.


Hi Leonard, that is precisely my position.
With regards to "generalization", my *preference*. 
I try to be very clear about it when bantering online. I wish others would express some of their "better", as such.

cheers


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

And I guess my point is that even if a listener doesn't know if there is something 'wrong' is not the point. It is whether there is room for improvement - to make them even more pleased with the result. I would agree that we're looking for solutions to problems - not the other way around. Never said any different. 

And I would agree that much is preference. That's why in my opinion, there is no one 'right' way to treat a room. Some people LIKE rooms so dead that I personally wouldn't like it. Other people freak out with 2 panels in a 3000 cubic foot room saying it killed the sound. Some prefer diffusion. Some prefer a mix. And yes, some may prefer nothing.

But, this constant talking down to posters asking if there is a problem or they want a solution and are looking for a problem is condescending at best. Seems like most times you jump in with this, people tend to take it offline which is not to the benefit of the forum.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

I think the key is whether the listenter cares if anything is wrong and whether any improvements would be meaningful enough to justify the cost, or effort. My experience is that most people don't want to expend the effort to find out nor would they care about the changes. My experience is also that most can notice changes, but the kinds of differences we talk about here are often just not important to most people and have little effect on whether they enjoy what they are listening to.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

And I would agree. Many people don't know or don't care as its either not worth the effort/cost or they're not willing/capable of living with the visual aspect of some treatments. That said, this forum is a bit different in that there are quite a few people that DO care, that have dedicated spaces that they can do with what they wish, etc. There are many others who listen in main living areas where aesthetics and furniture/system locations are somewhat compromised and know they are having issues but may or may not be able to identify what specifically. 

It's like the old saying 'You don't know what you don't know.'


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

bpape said:


> But, this constant talking down to posters asking if there is a problem or they want a solution and are looking for a problem is condescending at best.


It certainly isn't intended as such...and if any OP/member took it that way, I would strongly encourage them to say so, either openly in the forum or via pm.



bpape said:


> Seems like most times you jump in with this, people tend to take it offline which is not to the benefit of the forum.


I can't be aware of that (as you just said, don't know what I don't know), so if it happens, please let me know the specifics, thanks.

It seems to me that that zero contrarian views, in any forum, is a disservice to the readers. But I could be wrong there too.

cheers


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

lcaillo said:


> I think the key is whether the listenter cares if anything is wrong and whether any improvements would be meaningful enough to justify the cost, or effort. My experience is that most people don't want to expend the effort to find out nor would they care about the changes. My experience is also that most can notice changes, but the kinds of differences we talk about here are often just not important to most people and have little effect on whether they enjoy what they are listening to.


I pretty much agree.
I think _any_ listener should be able to hear whether their dialog is unclear, bass boomy, stereo soundfield flat and undefined, etc, etc.
They may not know *why* (hence them being here?). Or whether they will prefer X over Y. But they should certainly be able to express some of their perceptions.
And I certainly don't see why asking someone about _their_ perceptions, of their sound (in an *Acoustics* forum!!), could be perceived as an affront.

cheers


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

ajinfla said:


> I pretty much agree.
> I think _any_ listener should be able to hear whether their dialog is unclear, bass boomy, stereo soundfield flat and undefined, etc, etc.
> cheers


And that's where I think the rub is. A lot of people don't know. They've never had a great soundfield with good 3 dimensional image and may not know what that sounds like, what to listen for, etc. Boomy bass, some people think that's a good thing as that's all they've ever known. "more is better". Couldn't tell you how many times I get people that tell me - not as much bass where I'm sitting but against the wall and in the corners it sounds great! Not realizing that is overemphasized and boomy instead of balanced and tight.

Dialog - absolutely. Pretty much everyone can tell when they can't understand dialog.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

I do not dissagree that educating people is a need. Benn thgough that with so many issues over the years. Even among "experts" there is much disagreement about the need or importance for room treatments. In a case like the OP who is interested, he gets lots of opinions from they are bad for sound to they are absolutely necessary.

With all due respect to all, much of the debate seems self serving. Those that sell relatively expensive speakers often prioritize the speaker and don't see the need or value in room treatment. Those that sell room treatments feel differently.

Not a new problem. The only real way to answer a question is to talk about what the user's expectations and priorities are for the system. Theoretical notions about why one should choose one path or another might be good thought experiments, but for a particular user, what is important is where he/she is in current state, what the priorities are, and where he/she wants to end up.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

lcaillo said:


> I do not dissagree that educating people is a need. Benn thgough that with so many issues over the years. Even among "experts" there is much disagreement about the need or importance for room treatments. In a case like the OP who is interested, he gets lots of opinions from they are bad for sound to they are absolutely necessary.
> 
> With all due respect to all, much of the debate seems self serving. Those that sell relatively expensive speakers often prioritize the speaker and don't see the need or value in room treatment. Those that sell room treatments feel differently.
> 
> Not a new problem. The only real way to answer a question is to talk about what the user's expectations and priorities are for the system. Theoretical notions about why one should choose one path or another might be good thought experiments, but for a particular user, what is important is where he/she is in current state, what the priorities are, and where he/she wants to end up.


I agree with everything you state here but how to we go forward for the OP? For some reason, this conjured up the four questions of the Passover service to my mind. 
*What does the wise son say?* No problem with such OPs because they know exactly what problems they want to cure and they describe them and their setup.
*What does the wicked son say?*I guess these are trolls who ask about acoustics/EQ but are encumbered by bias and/or obsessed with audiophile mysticism. We should try to educate them.
*What does the simple son say? *This OP might fall in this category since he admits his ignorance and asked for help. However,..............................................
*And the one who does not know how to ask:*this might equally well describe him since he says:


> _Well, I suppose that the answer is that I don't really know what I want to improve. Sort of like the dude with the Bose Acoustimass that does not know it sucks. The difference is, I know my room probably sucks for acoustics, I just don't know why, what to do about it, or what to expect for improvement. My room is very inflexible._


How do we help? We have asked him to describe what he is hearing but he does not (can not) do that. Perhaps he should take a few discs to a showroom and describe whether and what sounds better there but until we know what the problem is, it is hard to proceed. That is why I suggested trying some measurements as, perhaps, that might help him focus on his discontents. Perhaps he has none and is only hoping for better. If so, the general principles of room acoustics, such as found at GIKacoustics and other sites, is the best start.


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## Babak (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi,

I think sthat starting with room measurements could be tricky, especially if someone is not familiar with meausring.
There is the risk of meausrement errors leading to a completely wrong result.

I still think that ne should starrt about dealing with room acoustics, if there is a real need.
Is the user happy with what he hears? Then everything is fine.

If it is an untrained listener, he can start training his hearing.
There is an excellent software by Sean Olive to do that.

Another way to train ones hearing is to listen to the same recordings on dofferent systems and in different rooms and also with different Headphones over and over again.
Are there any differences? Does one setup deliver details that are not delivered by the syste at home? Is the bass less boomy with other setups? etc.
If yes, you've got an idea that you might do something with your room.

Without a trained ear and without any reliable measurement, nobody can tell from the distance, what might be agoo approach.


Soe other thing is also true and has been said before.
Some people don't really want to change much.
Sometimes they listen with an awkward setup, close to walls and no stereo triangle. I met people who did not want to change the setup to an equilateral triangle but wanted to add acoustic panels and bass absorbers to imrove things, just because the heard that some people improved the acoustics of their rooms with those absorbers.

Because others do something is not always the best reason to do the same at home.
Especially if there is no idea what is wrong with the sound.

Cheers
Babak


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