# No option but to run av cable & power cable close together.



## Wheels1974 (Sep 24, 2012)

Hi guys because my Trophy room has a cathedral ceiling and tin roof means that there is only a 4 inch gap between the tin sheets to the timber and in-between that its heavily insulated. To complicate the situation even more, there is a Pillar that runs dead centre of this room for structural purposes. 
Because the pillar is dead centre of the room, it comes in very handy as I will be using the Pillar to mount my projector on it, in the near future.

For many years I have thought that I will NEVER be able to run a projector or huge screen in this room due to all the complications Re: How I designed my Trophy Room because back then I never considered having a home Theatre in this room.

About 2 months ago my father came up with a idea. He and my cousin took the capping off the ridge to see if cables could be passed this way, to our surprise they were able to confirm that they could get cable down the pillar and also run cable all along the ridge of the cathedral ceiling. *When I say ridge of the cathedral ceiling, it’s literally a 5 inch by 5 inch gap within the timber ridge. *

Today I am PLEASED to say my Father and Cousin run ALL the cables along the 14 meter or 46 feet ridge and down the 20 foot pillar, which we thought would never happen, im just hoping all should be fine. 
The cables I used are Cat-6 and RG6 cable or some call it RJ6 cable. 
*Unfortunately I couldn't run HDMI because the run is to long for HDMI. I will use a HDMI extender over the Cat-6 cable once I purchase everything.* 

Because my cousin is a industrial electrician, he is new to all the Cat-6 & RG6 as he just works on massive machinery and they never use these cables. 
Now the cable has been laid across the ridge and pillar.
The down fall is that there is power laid right across this 46 feet ridge and because the dimensions within this ridge is only small 5 inches wide by 5 inches deep got my cousin concerned.

He made a few calls and he was advised different things. Some said it will be fine to run the Cat-6, RG6 & some Speaker cable along side the Power cable, others suggested to run all the AV cable along side it but try to to keep the AV cable and power cable separated so they weren't touching each other. 

My cousin wasn't 100% happy with all the mixed information he was receiving. 
So he opted to run ALL the AV cables such as Cat-6, RG6 and speaker cable in 2 separate conduit first of all because all the cables could not fit in one piece of conduit. 
He then pushed ALL the POWER cable to one side to make sure they were going to stay there. 
Lastly he made sure both conduit were as far as they would allow him to get them on the other side of the ridge, he also hammered a few nails to support the conduit and to make sure it doesn't ever move. 
There is only 3 inches separating the 2 conduit which contains ALL the AV cable, from the POWER cable. As I mentioned above that is the maximum distance the ridge allowed us to move as the ridge is only about 5 inches wide by 5 inches deep.

My query is should this be fine and secondly would the conduit help shield the AV cables in any way from the power cables?

Your advice is greatly appreciated 
Dean


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

Unfortunately, the only way to know for sure is to power up your system with the cables installed as they are. Grounding the conduits at one end only will help. I say one end only because ground loops can be formed by grounding both ends. The ground loops themselves can cause hum.

Running the Cat 5 cable near the power should not be a problem. The RG6, if used for line level audio, can be susceptable to induced hum. However, the coax has decent shielding that is better than some audio cables, so that will help.

For your HDMI run, did you consider a HDMI in-line amp? I have run 50 feet at 1080P with an inexpensive amp in line. Also, here in the US RedMere HDMI cables are available that are rated up to 60 feet, but they may not be available in Australia. You should be fine for the Cat 5 extender, however. I have not tried that but others have with good success.


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## Wheels1974 (Sep 24, 2012)

hjones4841 said:


> Unfortunately, the only way to know for sure is to power up your system with the cables installed as they are. Grounding the conduits at one end only will help. I say one end only because ground loops can be formed by grounding both ends. The ground loops themselves can cause hum.
> 
> Running the Cat 5 cable near the power should not be a problem. The RG6, if used for line level audio, can be susceptable to induced hum. However, the coax has decent shielding that is better than some audio cables, so that will help.
> 
> For your HDMI run, did you consider a HDMI in-line amp? I have run 50 feet at 1080P with an inexpensive amp in line. Also, here in the US RedMere HDMI cables are available that are rated up to 60 feet, but they may not be available in Australia. You should be fine for the Cat 5 extender, however. I have not tried that but others have with good success.


Thanks for your advice mate. I'll be starting slowly as I will be getting PAY TV first so I'll see how that goes before I consider purchasing a Projector, Screen, Receiver, Blu-Ray and a few other little bits. 

Because my cable runs are minimum 90+ feet I didn't consider going straight HDMI, I had a AV guy come over and he told me straight away that my only choice was to run Cat-6 and then use the HDMI extender. Apparently the Cat-6 & HDMI extender works just as well as HDMI when running even super long runs such as 200+ feet.
I had to get advice from others because I don't know much about A/V at all to be honest mate. I'm a newbie not only to this site but also to the industry so to speak.

Regards
Dean


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

As Harry noted above, the only real way is to hook everything up and see if it works. IMO though, I think it should be fine as long as you don't have them lying right next to one another. Separating the low level voltage wiring into it's own conduit and creating as much space between the two is exactly what I would have suggested.

If you do need to cross them at any point, make sure you do it at as close to a 90 degree angle as possible.


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## Wheels1974 (Sep 24, 2012)

ALMFamily said:


> As Harry noted above, the only real way is to hook everything up and see if it works. IMO though, I think it should be fine as long as you don't have them lying right next to one another. Separating the low level voltage wiring into it's own conduit and creating as much space between the two is exactly what I would have suggested.
> 
> If you do need to cross them at any point, make sure you do it at as close to a 90 degree angle as possible.



Thanks so much for your reply mate. I was more worried & still conserned because the conduit with all the AV cable is only laying about 3 inches away from where Power cables are, so there side by side with a 3 inch gap. 
They are fairly close together but because we had very little area to work with we had no other option. I will be praying and hoping your opinion is right mate but like Harry & yoursef said the only real way to find out is to try it out. 

Any idea what is best to try it out on before spending over $10k on all my AV gear and then finding out it doesn't work would just crush me. I will be trying one of the Cat-6 runs on Pay TV within the next week or two. 

I did run many extra runs of cable then I actually needed just in case.

Cheers
Dean


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

I sure wish I had a better suggestion Dean, but I cannot think of a good alternative. Perhaps Harry has another idea that I have not thought of....


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

ALMFamily said:


> I sure wish I had a better suggestion Dean, but I cannot think of a good alternative. Perhaps Harry has another idea that I have not thought of....


With several runs he can choose the best. Highly unlikely that all will behave alike.

Of course converting everything to fiber would be a sure, but expensive, solution.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

as long as the Cat 6 and RG6 were both "shielded" then there shouldn't be a problem. If you unsure and/or don't have the specs of your particular cable handy you can physically check by looking at a spare piece and see if there is a mylar (tinfoil) wrap between the outer PVC and the wires themselves.


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## ask4mikie (Oct 8, 2012)

If your conduits are metal then they should shield your AV cables from the power line, and you will be good to go. If they are not metal then at least they are separated by 3+ inches.

The electrical power to the projector MUST be wired according to your national and local electrical codes. To do otherwise is illegal and dangerous! Ungrounded electrical boxes can become energized by an electrical short and electrocute or severely shock people who merely touch it, or something connected to it. This is completely different from ground loops and low voltage AV lines. If your cousin is a trained electrician, he should know how to wire your power runs correctly.

You may want to study up on Cat 6 wiring and how it should be terminated (putting the RJ45 connectors on the end). Poor terminations can be a major source of crosstalk and noise. You may want to consider hiring an IT guy or technician for an hour or two to do the terminations and test the wiring.


My 2 cents,

Mike


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Hey Dean,

Adding a bit to what the others have said: You didn’t go into specifics as to your intent for the RG-6, so I’m assuming it’s for component video (as in, your ran three of them)? 

Good RG-6 cable has virtually 100% shielding, by virtue of its redundant braided and foil-wrapped double-shielded construction. So, I wouldn’t be overly concerned about external interference leaking into RG-6. Just use crimp-on RCA connectors and you’re good to go. For video or line-level audio applications it would have been preferable to use RG-6 with a copper shield, but it’s not the end of the world if you didn’t.

The Cat-6 may or may not be an issue. It’s not as robust as RG-6, as far as noise-rejection goes. As you know, the typical use for Cat-6 is computer networking. However, computer networks use a balanced line system, not unlike what you see with professional audio, so it’s the equipment at both ends that ultimately provides the noise rejection, not the cable itself. The big unknown is whether or not the HDMI extender you use is set-up as a balanced-line system – I don’t know enough about them to say.

Speaker cable – I’m not sure why you’re running that to a projector, but speaker-level signals are generally too high for external interference from near-by electrical power to be an issue.

You didn’t mention what kind of conduit you used, but as mikie mentioned, it if’s metal you added significant protection. 

Regards, 
Wayne


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

It is very unlikely that there will be a problem due to proximity. Much more likely to have ground loops due to the length of cabling, but if it all goes back to the same location that will likely be fine as well. The length of cables for the signals may end up being the biggest issue.


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## Wheels1974 (Sep 24, 2012)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Hey Dean,
> 
> Adding a bit to what the others have said: You didn’t go into specifics as to your intent for the RG-6, so I’m assuming it’s for component video (as in, your ran three of them)?
> 
> ...


Sorry I haven't posted in here sooner. Firstly the conduit I used is 2 x 32 mm PVC conduit. 
The RG6 will be used for my PAY TV set top box and also for a 2nd Sub-Woofer. 
The speaker cable that I ran wont be running to my projector, I just ran the speaker cable that direction because if I chose to later want to put speakers directly behind the seating area that way I would have the cable ready there. 

I stripped both the RG6 & Cat-6 to see if it has the foil protection. The RG6 has two sets of this foil shielding however the Cat-6 doesn't have any foil shielding.

Are you sugesting that a HDMI extender can be used on RG6?

Regards
Dean


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## Wheels1974 (Sep 24, 2012)

lcaillo said:


> It is very unlikely that there will be a problem due to proximity. Much more likely to have ground loops due to the length of cabling, but if it all goes back to the same location that will likely be fine as well. The length of cables for the signals may end up being the biggest issue.


That's why I used Cat-6 because I was told continuously not to run HDMI cable if your doing runs longer then 15 meters, I was advised to use Cat-5 or 6 and then use a HDMI extender which I believe converts the signal to HDMI at the projector end and Receiver end, I was told this can be used for runs over 100 meters or over 328 feet.
However that's only what I was told by all the AV retailers I called, so I stand to be corrected.

Regards
Dean:scratch:


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## Wheels1974 (Sep 24, 2012)

ask4mikie said:


> If your conduits are metal then they should shield your AV cables from the power line, and you will be good to go. If they are not metal then at least they are separated by 3+ inches.
> 
> The electrical power to the projector MUST be wired according to your national and local electrical codes. To do otherwise is illegal and dangerous! Ungrounded electrical boxes can become energized by an electrical short and electrocute or severely shock people who merely touch it, or something connected to it. This is completely different from ground loops and low voltage AV lines. If your cousin is a trained electrician, he should know how to wire your power runs correctly.
> 
> ...


Cheers mate thanks for that. My house has a compleate power curcut or power break. It will shut off the electricity throught the entire house if there is any problem at all. Most of the Cat-6 well 3 runs of the 5 runs were purchased pre-terminated.

Regards
Dean


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Wheels1974 said:


> Sorry I haven't posted in here sooner. Firstly the conduit I used is 2 x 32 mm PVC conduit.
> The RG6 will be used for my PAY TV set top box and also for a 2nd Sub-Woofer.
> The speaker cable that I ran wont be running to my projector, I just ran the speaker cable that direction because if I chose to later want to put speakers directly behind the seating area that way I would have the cable ready there.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info, Dean. Obviously PVC conduit isn’t going to have any shielding properties. The RG-6 used for the set box will be fine. 

So you’re “sink or swim” for the projector picture with the Cat-5-for-HDMI cable? Might have been good idea to run some RG-6 to use for component video as a back-up. As I noted, I’m not sure if the HDMI extender set-up will utilize the balanced line system needed for ultimate noise rejection. I assume it’s a digital signal, and that in itself might make a difference. I’m unsure if digital signals are prone to external interference like analog signals are, but the fact that computer networks use a balanced signal protocol tells me that they might be. Perhaps someone else watching this thread can comment on that.

Ultimately you may just have to hook it all up and see what happens.

Regards, 
Wayne


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## ask4mikie (Oct 8, 2012)

One article says that there is no actual length limit in the spec. When HDMI first came out, people had trouble going more than 15 feet. Today they are out to 50 or 60 feet, and possibly much longer.

I don't know how long your cable run will be, but you have a couple of options for a longer run. One would be an HDMI amp somewhere in the run from the equipment to the projector. If the amp requires power, and it is in the middle of the run, that may be a problem. Another option would be to go from HDMI into Cat 5/5e/6 and back to HDMI at the projector. So you would need a converter at both ends. I believe you can run HDMI over Cat5/5e/6 for hundreds of feet.

I have never heard of running component video or HDMI on RG6.

The limit in the spec for 5/5e/6 twisted pair cable is 100 meters. This is about 328 feet (~39 inches in a meter). This limit is for IT purposes.

There are numerous HDMI over ethernet products out there. Some are passive (unpowered), and some are active (powered). They have varying maximum lengths and prices. All the ones I saw used 2 runs of network cable. Some of them had a built in IR repeater to send IR signals to the projector, which might be very handy.


Good luck,

Mike


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## ask4mikie (Oct 8, 2012)

One more thing, there is shielded Cat 5/5e/6 available, but it is considerably more expensive. I would try what you have already installed before buying more cable.


Mike


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

ask4mikie said:


> I have never heard of running component video or HDMI on RG6.


Three RG-6 (or RG-59) cables terminated with RCAs is the functional equivalent of regular component video cables. In fact, Monoprice's premium component video cables are made from RG-6.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Wheels1974 (Sep 24, 2012)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Thanks for the info, Dean. Obviously PVC conduit isn’t going to have any shielding properties. The RG-6 used for the set box will be fine.
> 
> So you’re “sink or swim” for the projector picture with the Cat-5-for-HDMI cable? Might have been good idea to run some RG-6 to use for component video as a back-up. As I noted, I’m not sure if the HDMI extender set-up will utilize the balanced line system needed for ultimate noise rejection. I assume it’s a digital signal, and that in itself might make a difference. I’m unsure if digital signals are prone to external interference like analog signals are, but the fact that computer networks use a balanced signal protocol tells me that they might be. Perhaps someone else watching this thread can comment on that.
> 
> ...


Wayne,
Thanks again for all your information mate it all helps, as I know very little about all this.
I ran 5 Cat-6 cables & 4 RG-6 cables from where the projector will be to where my Receiver will be, I also have arial cable already there, that was passed there when I built the house. 
So I will have at the very least 3 spare Cat-6 & 2 spare RG-6.

When you say *"Might have been good idea to run some RG-6 to use for component video as a back-up."* I will have at least 2 spare RG-6 cables that run from where the projector will be to where the Receiver will be.
What I dont understand is how can RG-6 be used as a backup for my projector, excuse my ignorance but can RG-6 be used in the same way as Cat-6 when it comes to adding a HDMI extender to it, it order to have HDMI signal going into the Projector & Receiver?

Regards
Dean


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## trevorv (Oct 8, 2012)

I know that the Key Digital Baluns are balanced. There are several types of extenders. If it were me I would purchase ones that support HDbaseT. They ar more expensive but much more reliable. Almost every budget extender that we have installed were client provided and have all been replaced. Some last for a year some not longer than a month and some didn't work at all. I would also recommend cat6 if your going more than 100'. We've had picture and audio fallout using cat5 beyond 100'.

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## trevorv (Oct 8, 2012)

Protection. Few devices will have component video or any analog outputs. FCC passed a law in 2009 I think that stopped the manufacturing of analog outputs by 2012-13

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## Wheels1974 (Sep 24, 2012)

ask4mikie said:


> One article says that there is no actual length limit in the spec. When HDMI first came out, people had trouble going more than 15 feet. Today they are out to 50 or 60 feet, and possibly much longer.
> 
> I don't know how long your cable run will be, but you have a couple of options for a longer run. One would be an HDMI amp somewhere in the run from the equipment to the projector. If the amp requires power, and it is in the middle of the run, that may be a problem. Another option would be to go from HDMI into Cat 5/5e/6 and back to HDMI at the projector. So you would need a converter at both ends. I believe you can run HDMI over Cat5/5e/6 for hundreds of feet.
> 
> ...


Mike,
That's exactly what I was told, I was advised not to run HDMI cable due to the lengths of my runs, they suggested the best way to go is to run Cat-6 because my runs are 30 meters or 100 feet long and then at the Projecter & Receiver end have a Gefen HDMI extender, this will change the signal from the Cat-6 to HDMI signal into my Projector & Receiver. 
It's good up to 100 to 150 feet when using Cat-6. Here is a link to the HDMI extender im looking at using: 
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/600774-REG/Gefen_EXT_HDMI1_3_1CAT6_HDMI_1_3_over_CAT_6.html 

Hope that makes it clearer
Regards
Dean


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## Wheels1974 (Sep 24, 2012)

ask4mikie said:


> One article says that there is no actual length limit in the spec. When HDMI first came out, people had trouble going more than 15 feet. Today they are out to 50 or 60 feet, and possibly much longer.
> 
> I don't know how long your cable run will be, but you have a couple of options for a longer run. One would be an HDMI amp somewhere in the run from the equipment to the projector. If the amp requires power, and it is in the middle of the run, that may be a problem. Another option would be to go from HDMI into Cat 5/5e/6 and back to HDMI at the projector. So you would need a converter at both ends. I believe you can run HDMI over Cat5/5e/6 for hundreds of feet.
> 
> ...


Mike,
Here is a link to the HDMI extenders I am looking to use at each ends of my Cat-6 cable which will go directly into my Projector & Receiver. 
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/600774-REG/Gefen_EXT_HDMI1_3_1CAT6_HDMI_1_3_over_CAT_6.html

Regards
Dean


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## trevorv (Oct 8, 2012)

FYI that model is discontinued and does not support HDbaseT. I've used that model before and had problems using it with a projector because of the projectors warm up time. It would not allow the receiver to handshake with the projector causing a scrambled screen. I had to figure out the exact order for the devices to come on to compensate for it. Of course this required a remote and processor to time the On command at exactly the right me to allow the handshake. If you are using a Scientific Atlanta cable box it will not support it (per Gefen tech support). Ever since we've had those problems we switched to Key Digital. 
http://hdbaset.org/ info on HDbaseT

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## Wheels1974 (Sep 24, 2012)

trevorv said:


> FYI that model is discontinued and does not support HDbaseT. I've used that model before and had problems using it with a projector because of the projectors warm up time. It would not allow the receiver to handshake with the projector causing a scrambled screen. I had to figure out the exact order for the devices to come on to compensate for it. Of course this required a remote and processor to time the On command at exactly the right me to allow the handshake. If you are using a Scientific Atlanta cable box it will not support it (per Gefen tech support). Ever since we've had those problems we switched to Key Digital.
> http://hdbaset.org/ info on HDbaseT
> 
> Sent from my iPad using HTShack


Cheers for that mate,
I actually noticed while searching online that it has been discontinued. I may get something like this: http://www.conversionstechnology.co...5e-extends-signal-up-to-300-p/cthdmi-100e.htm although in one of my quotes the HDMI extendor is for a * Binary CAT6HDMI Baluns*

Cheers
Dean


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Wheels1974 said:


> Wayne,
> 
> What I dont understand is how can RG-6 be used as a backup for my projector?


Three RG-6 cables could be used as component video cables – see Post #18. Not as good as HDMI as component video tops out at 720p, but better than nothing if you end up having issues with your HDMI extender.

Regards, 
Wayne


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