# Sound fm SW



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

Hi. I am now attempting to just do the SW setup instead of the full sweep. I've set up my sound card as per the "Getting Started with REW"-System Connections for an AVR to BFD1100P (pg 5 of 6). The problem seems to be that I am not getting any sound out of my SW. I have my vol. on the Win XP pro set to max. When I run the Level check, I can't seem to get anything out of the sw but a low rumble. As I turn up the vol. on the AVR, it seems to go to slowly get louder and then I start to get a lot of feedback and a very loud feedback. I do not get the pink noise that you hear when you use the main speakers for the sound. I have the 1100 in bypass mode (the in/out is flashing and the store is flashing). 
Any suggestions on what I am doing wrong or why my sw won't output a pink noise would be appreciated.

Bob.

PS: I have not yet turned off any main speakers-should I at this pt?


----------



## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

You might try verifying by connecting the cable to the sub around the 1100p instead of through it. This way you will make sure you are hearing the sound of the sub pink noise as it is generated by REW. 

It can be helpful to leave the mains on, just to be sure that audio is getting to the receiver. Afterward, it is best to disable the mains, as you will be equalizing the sub alone. Note that, unlike the sub test tone from the receiver, the REW signals go through the crossover, so the sound will seem lower, the lower you have set the crossover. It may sound more natural if you raise the crossover frequency, although the REW calculation of equalization filters can adopt to whatever crossover value you choose. 

Bill


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

laser188139 said:


> You might try verifying by connecting the cable to the sub around the 1100p instead of through it. This way you will make sure you are hearing the sound of the sub pink noise as it is generated by REW.
> 
> It can be helpful to leave the mains on, just to be sure that audio is getting to the receiver. Afterward, it is best to disable the mains, as you will be equalizing the sub alone. Note that, unlike the sub test tone from the receiver, the REW signals go through the crossover, so the sound will seem lower, the lower you have set the crossover. It may sound more natural if you raise the crossover frequency, although the REW calculation of equalization filters can adopt to whatever crossover value you choose.
> 
> Bill


Bill, I am once again a little confused as to the sub crossover. I don't seem to have one. I do have a LPF of the LFE-I understand this to be a filter, not a crossover!:scratch: Am I mistaken about this? I have set the LPF to 120hz. I will bypass the BFD and see what happens-I am supposed to hear the pink noise like I heard thru the mains when I was attempting to do a full sweep, correct? 

Bob.


----------



## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

perritterd said:


> Bill, I am once again a little confused as to the sub crossover. I don't seem to have one. I do have a LPF of the LFE-I understand this to be a filter, not a crossover!:scratch: Am I mistaken about this? I have set the LPF to 120hz. I will bypass the BFD and see what happens-I am supposed to hear the pink noise like I heard thru the mains when I was attempting to do a full sweep, correct?
> 
> Bob.


Multiple questions, there. I'm looking at the TX-SR876 manual, pg 95, where it discusses the setup of the crossover on the main front speakers. As REW passes a two channel signal to the receiver, if the receiver is in stereo mode it is the front speaker left/right configuration that determines what part of the audio is passed to the fronts and what part is crossed over to the sub. 

As regards the pink noise generator signal used to set the SPL level with the SPL meter, there are two choices, the REW subwoofer cal signal or the REW speaker cal signal. Each are band limited, identical to the choices seen in the Generator control when you select Pink Noise. The sub pink noise has its rolloff points at 30Hz-80Hz, the (main) speaker cal signal has its rolloff points at 500Hz and 2000Hz. So they will certainly sound different. My point was that, with the crossover set to 80Hz, if nothing was coming out of the sub you should still hear a little from the fronts, so you would be able to verify the audio signal was reaching the receiver. 

If you are trying the frequency sweep, it does not sound like pink noise. Rather it is a very slow version of the "whoops" of the Audyssey setup signal. Typically for the sub, there is no reason to go above 200Hz or 400Hz, so the sweep stops earlier than a full range sweep. Otherwise, they sound similar, depending on how low your mains go. 

Bill


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

laser188139 said:


> Multiple questions, there. I'm looking at the TX-SR876 manual, pg 95, where it discusses the setup of the crossover on the main front speakers. As REW passes a two channel signal to the receiver, if the receiver is in stereo mode it is the front speaker left/right configuration that determines what part of the audio is passed to the fronts and what part is crossed over to the sub.
> 
> As regards the pink noise generator signal used to set the SPL level with the SPL meter, there are two choices, the REW subwoofer cal signal or the REW speaker cal signal. Each are band limited, identical to the choices seen in the Generator control when you select Pink Noise. The sub pink noise has its rolloff points at 30Hz-80Hz, the (main) speaker cal signal has its rolloff points at 500Hz and 2000Hz. So they will certainly sound different. My point was that, with the crossover set to 80Hz, if nothing was coming out of the sub you should still hear a little from the fronts, so you would be able to verify the audio signal was reaching the receiver.
> 
> ...


Bill, so based on this observation from you: *Multiple questions, there. I'm looking at the TX-SR876 manual, pg 95, where it discusses the setup of the crossover on the main front speakers. As REW passes a two channel signal to the receiver, if the receiver is in stereo mode it is the front speaker left/right configuration that determines what part of the audio is passed to the fronts and what part is crossed over to the sub. *, how do I determine what my filter is for the sub? I have set my THX Select speakers to 80hz, and per Chris at Audyssey, I should be setting my LPF to 120hz. What is your view as to the correct setting for this filter? As to the second paragraph, I do not seem to be getting anything like what is produced by Audyssey. I just saw your reply and have not had a chance to bypass the 1100, but will attempt to try this at first opportunity . I really do not believe that this is as problematic as I seem to be making it. I'm sure I must have something configured incorrectly. I will double check everything and see if it wasn't me that was the problem. I'll try and post something tomorrow about what I was able to determine.

Thanks for the help Bill.
Bob.


----------



## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

perritterd said:


> ... I have set my THX Select speakers to 80hz, ...


If you picked THX 80Hz, then 80Hz will be the crossover you selected. 

As to the right value, once you have worked through your setup issues, you can use REW to do full sweeps, with sub and each main separately, and verify if 80Hz is the best choice, or if one of the other values your Onkyo allows you is better. I know you have some advantages there over my Denon, as you have available some odd 10Hz multiples I don't have, 50Hz, 70Hz, 130Hz. The best choice depends on the response in your room, after Audyssey setup. (This is one of those decision that Audyssey Pro would try to automate for you, but with REW you can do it yourself.)

Pink noise isn't at all like Audyssey setup, although the REW pink noise generator should sound similar to what the Onkyo puts out if you go through its manual level setting procedure, pg 100-101 in the manual. 

Bill


----------



## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

perritterd said:


> ... When I run the Level check, I can't seem to get anything out of the sw but a low rumble. ...


I'm looking back at your original comment, and the low rumble would be exactly how I would describe the sub band limited pink noise. Why do you think this is not right? Suppose you start with the SPL speaker calibration signal, set the volume level so your external SPL meter reads 75dB, and use this to set your SPL level. If you know switch and go through the same SPL calibration procedure but use REW's sub calibration signal, does the external SPL meter read ~75dB, somewhere between 70dB and 80dB? If so, you are probably indeed hearing the low frequency sub pink noise. With your ECM8000, after calibrating to the main speaker level, the REW SPL meter should now give a more accurate reading of the sub level than the external SPL meter, but they should both be in the same ballpark. 

After calibrating REW's SPL level, you should be able to progress to the frequency sweeps, either of the sub range alone, or full range with the fronts enabled. 

Bill


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

laser188139 said:


> I'm looking back at your original comment, and the low rumble would be exactly how I would describe the sub band limited pink noise. Why do you think this is not right? Suppose you start with the SPL speaker calibration signal, set the volume level so your external SPL meter reads 75dB, and use this to set your SPL level. If you know switch and go through the same SPL calibration procedure but use REW's sub calibration signal, does the external SPL meter read ~75dB, somewhere between 70dB and 80dB? If so, you are probably indeed hearing the low frequency sub pink noise. With your ECM8000, after calibrating to the main speaker level, the REW SPL meter should now give a more accurate reading of the sub level than the external SPL meter, but they should both be in the same ballpark.
> 
> After calibrating REW's SPL level, you should be able to progress to the frequency sweeps, either of the sub range alone, or full range with the fronts enabled.
> 
> Bill


Bill, this seems to be where I am having problems. When I try to set my ext. SPL, I am getting a lot of feedback to the system. I've disconnected the 1100, went straight to my AUX2-R chan., and I have been able to *"FINALLY"* get a sound from the SW that sounds proper, but I seem to not be able to get a steady 75db on my ext. SPL. As soon as I bring up the vol on the AVR, it starts to slowly come up on the SPL and then just completely overshoots the 75db pt. and I get a lot of feedback. I can't seem to get a steady 75db (approx.) out of the system. I did do what you suggested and bypassed the 1100. All sound is now being passed directly to the AVR and I have the sound card setup as per pg 5 of "Getting Started w/REW". I "DO" still have my Mains hooked up...would this have the effect of causing the vol fm the AVR to cause the severe feedback I keep getting when running thru the "Check Levels" setup as I adj. the vol. on the AVR to try and get to 75db?
The REW prog. seems to be functioning properly-it appears to be in my setup of the hardware. I keep getting severe feedback that seems to escalate as I get near 75db and then just runs out of control and the vol. goes thru the roof! I am getting close to taming this program, along w/my SW...!:T I will work on this AM and unhook the mains and see if that doesn't help the feedback problem.

Thanks Bill.
Bob.


----------



## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Feedback is normally caused by a bad setting in the soundcard software that creates a feedback loop... Check to make sure your line-in is muted for playback.


----------



## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

Following up on Greg's comment, I found this note from someone with a feedback problem using the UCA202. Apparently the device has a monitoring switch that must be turned off. 

Bill


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

glaufman said:


> Feedback is normally caused by a bad setting in the soundcard software that creates a feedback loop... Check to make sure your line-in is muted for playback.


Greg, are you referring to the XP sound card settings or something within REW? If in XP, where are you referring to?
Bob


----------



## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

*Bill* is referring to a wired "Monitoring" switch", as seen here on a UCA222 ( top left corner ) . The UCA202 has a similar switch .

Make sure that switch is in the "off" position . When it's on ( & a microphone is present ) , it creates feedback such as you're experiencing .










*Greg* would be referring to a software version ( of this switch ) which may be present in either XPs' generic audio control panel or a 3rd parties proprietary control panel/mixer . These custom control panels sometimes appear when one downloads and uses, custom sound-drivers like  *"asio4all"* ) . ( You don't need this driver / so don't download it ) .


<> cheers


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

EarlK said:


> *Bill* is referring to a wired "Monitoring" switch", as seen here on a UCA222 ( top left corner ) . The UCA202 has a similar switch .
> 
> Make sure that switch is in the "off" position . When it's on ( & a microphone is present ) , it creates feedback such as you're experiencing .
> 
> ...


Well, thanks to all about advising me to check the monitoring switch. I did indeed find it "ON"...I've shut it off and will try a few more tests. Thanks for everyone's help about seeing this problem.

Bob


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

laser188139 said:


> Following up on Greg's comment, I found this note from someone with a feedback problem using the UCA202. Apparently the device has a monitoring switch that must be turned off.
> 
> Bill


Bill, I found the monitor on-fixed that and it seemed to help w/the feedback. My 1st. run is here:


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

here it is without the phase:


----------



## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

The curve looks reasonable, except the recommended vertical limits when posting graphs is 45dB-105dB. Was this generated from the sub alone? 

From your other thread, I remember you are using an ECM8000, but I don't recall you mentioning whether you bought one with an individual calibration file, or whether you are using the generic ECM8000 calibration file available on this site. Regardless, unless you have subs with an extremely low response, the information below 10Hz probably represents background noise adjusted by the calibration file, and not real information. So if you run the sweeps only from 10Hz on up, or truncate the x-axis to begin at 10Hz or 15Hz (as recommended in the same page), you won't be distracted by things that probably don't matter. 

Bill


----------



## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

In addition, although it looks reasonable now, if you did your original soundcard cal with that monitoring switch "on" you should probably re-cal the soundcard no that the switch is "off"...


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

laser188139 said:


> The curve looks reasonable, except the recommended vertical limits when posting graphs is 45dB-105dB. Was this generated from the sub alone?
> 
> From your other thread, I remember you are using an ECM8000, but I don't recall you mentioning whether you bought one with an individual calibration file, or whether you are using the generic ECM8000 calibration file available on this site. Regardless, unless you have subs with an extremely low response, the information below 10Hz probably represents background noise adjusted by the calibration file, and not real information. So if you run the sweeps only from 10Hz on up, or truncate the x-axis to begin at 10Hz or 15Hz (as recommended in the same page), you won't be distracted by things that probably don't matter.
> 
> Bill


Bill, is this better? Yes, this is only SW-using the RS-SPL meter, now since it would seem to me to be a waste of time to use the ECM8K since I can't eq the upper ranges as I had intended. Readings are w/Audyssey off. What is going to happen to the curve and corrections that will be made by the BFD once I turn Aud. back on?

Bob


----------



## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

It depends on what your configuration was in each case...
When pairing a BFD with Audyssey, whichever one you make corrections with first needs to be left on or in the chain when you or your AVR decide the corrections to make with the other...


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

glaufman said:


> It depends on what your configuration was in each case...
> When pairing a BFD with Audyssey, whichever one you make corrections with first needs to be left on or in the chain when you or your AVR decide the corrections to make with the other...


Greg, so are you saying that I should have left the Aud. on prior to running the BFD 1100? I'm not quite understanding what you are suggesting... Right now, I am bypassing the BFD untill I could get some results from the SW. But, when I hook back up the BFD and run some tests for the SW, should In have Aud. on then for the tests w/BFD?

Bob


----------



## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

Greg is saying that, whichever one you do first, you must leave that configured the same way forever, otherwise you must redo both. 

If it were me, I would disable Audyssey, use the BFD to equalize the sub, then run Audyssey setup again on the whole system, with the intention to leave the BFD in the system, enabled, all the time. This way, the Audyssey distance calculation for the sub will reflect the delays introduced by the BFD. 

The alternative is to build on the Audyssey setup, using the BFD to fine tune the sub response already improved by Audyssey. The disadvantage would be that, if one re-ran Audyssey setup, one might then need to re-verify the BFD filters, and one would need to adjust the sub distance in the receiver, after enabling the BFD device, to reflect the additional delay it introduces.

With either approach, if you move the sub or change your primary listening position, you will need to redo both procedures. 

Bill


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

laser188139 said:


> Greg is saying that, whichever one you do first, you must leave that configured the same way forever, otherwise you must redo both.
> 
> If it were me, I would disable Audyssey, use the BFD to equalize the sub, then run Audyssey setup again on the whole system, with the intention to leave the BFD in the system, enabled, all the time. This way, the Audyssey distance calculation for the sub will reflect the delays introduced by the BFD.
> 
> ...


Bill, hi. I have Aud. disabled. I will use the BFD to fine tune the Sub response and rerun Aud. I will try one step at a time and see if I can't do this right the first time around!

Thank you Greg and Bill.
Bob


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

Ok, I've tried to hookup the MIDI cables as per "Communicating w/BFD 1124P" tutorials. I have the 1100P. I posted a question to Wayne and he said that if there were midi ports on the 1100P, then I should be able to use the auto midi calibration setup for transferring the filters to BFD from the REW. I have done the midi cable hookup and rerun the "Level Check" checks. Now, no matter how loud I turn up the volume on my Onkyo 876, I can't seem to get the levels up to 75db on my RS-4050 SPL. The vol. is very low and won't bring the sound up to the 75db on the SPL meter. The BFD has 2 rows of horizontal flashing red lights and the Engine R light is lit with the #1 beside the rotary knob. I had no problems w/getting the 75db. from the SW prior to hooking up the 1100P. Also, after hooking up the 1100P, I don't seem to have any connection for it in the Comm settings-no midi output port-only rs232 COM3 is port available but the midi connection to laptop is USB??!!

Thanks.
Bob


----------



## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

laser188139 said:


> Greg is saying that, whichever one you do first, you must leave that configured the same way forever, otherwise you must redo both.


Right as usual Bill!


> If it were me, I would disable Audyssey, use the BFD to equalize the sub, then run Audyssey setup again on the whole system, with the intention to leave the BFD in the system, enabled, all the time. This way, the Audyssey distance calculation for the sub will reflect the delays introduced by the BFD.


I would too, but there are some who prefer the results they get by running Audyssey w/o the BFD, then adding the BFD to fine tune...


----------

