# Why do I have to turn my receiver so high to hear them?



## goodears

First. I do not have bad hearing. I don't have wood floors. There are openings to the room. It's a living room, but it's not a giant house with all the open floor plan stuff. I hope that makes sense.

Ok. It's primarily when it is Pro Logic. Doesn't matter if it's TV or a DVD. I also am mostly referring to the center channel.

I've had two receivers a Denon AVR-1912 and a Yamaha HTR-5930. I sold the 1912 today. All set to 8 Ohms.

With both of the receivers it's the same. I have to turn it close to 0 to get that level I like.

I've had at least two different center channels and fronts, Polks and Axioms. I had some vintage Pioneers once for fronts.

Do I just like it too loud? I don't think my room is *that* untreated for sound. I sit about 15 away. I just don't I should have to punch above 20. Isn't 0 reference level?


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## ALMFamily

Do you mean just the dialogue is low? If so, I would check to see if your AVR has IntelliVolume (I have an Onkyo and that is what it is called there) and bump that up.

If it does not, consider increasing your trim level on the CC to see if that helps.


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## eclipse911t

Reference level is typically when dialogue is at 85db. So depending on the efficiency of your speakers and distance you could reach reference level long before or long after -0- on your receiver.

I'd suggest picking up an SPL Meter if you don't have one to get a better idea if it is just your preference, or some sort of speaker/room inefficiency. For a little more $ you could pick up a UMIK-1 and do some full measurements. If you don't care to spend money, at least grab a smart phone app and get a very rough idea.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
If you do not have one already, I highly recommend picking up an SPL Meter. While RoomEQ programs will set the levels and crossovers, I do find it helpful to make sure the speakers are level matched. As you just have the Yamaha which predates YPAO, the need for an SPL Meter is that much more necessary.

As for why you need to set the level so loud, it can be a combination of a large room, a relatively hard to drive center channel being driven by a relatively underpowered AVR, or a combination of all three.

We seem to be going around in circles with the Yamaha you are currently borrowing on multiple threads. I am not sure if you ended up selling the Denon to get the JBL you were discussing on another thread. Regardless, I will again say that it is probably best to get an HDMI AVR with RoomEQ/Speaker Setup.
J


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## goodears

I sold the Denon but I haven't gotten the JBL yet. It's a very good deal $150. I've never read anything bad about it. I'm thinking of getting them and watch movies in 2ch!


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## jevans64

If you are sitting 15 feet away from your speakers your SPL is going to drop about 24 dB by the time it reaches you. So. If you want the 85dB at your listening position, then that would be close to 109 dB coming out of the speakers. Since speaker efficiency is typically measured at 1 meter ( 3.3 feet ) than the drop would be about 14 dB when calculating the SPL from 3 feet to 15 feet, your listening position.

That is one reason. Another would be a limitation in how much power those receivers can put out, which is typically 40% to 50% lower than their 2-channel rated output. Third reason would be the surround mode. Dolby PLII is matrixed and spread out among all the speakers. A 2-channel or multi-channel processing mode will output a same-power signal to ALL the speakers. That would make 2-channel material sound a little bit louder and multi-channel stereo material definitely sound louder. These modes might sound louder but will lack the presence of a discreet surround mode.

I've got a 400w x 5 external amp plus a receiver that drives the other 6 speakers at 142 watts/channel PLUS TWO 1800 watt subs ( in the main tower speakers ) running at about 40% and I can barely get 105 dB at my listening position ( with gain set to zero ) that is 10 feet away. To produce the same results at YOUR 15 feet listening position I would need nearly FOUR times the power. Yes. I'd need more than 10,000 watts of power.


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## goodears

jevans64 said:


> If you are sitting 15 feet away from your speakers your SPL is going to drop about 24 dB by the time it reaches you. So. If you want the 85dB at your listening position, then that would be close to 109 dB coming out of the speakers. Since speaker efficiency is typically measured at 1 meter ( 3.3 feet ) than the drop would be about 14 dB when calculating the SPL from 3 feet to 15 feet, your listening position.
> 
> That is one reason. Another would be a limitation in how much power those receivers can put out, which is typically 40% to 50% lower than their 2-channel rated output. Third reason would be the surround mode. Dolby PLII is matrixed and spread out among all the speakers. A 2-channel or multi-channel processing mode will output a same-power signal to ALL the speakers. That would make 2-channel material sound a little bit louder and multi-channel stereo material definitely sound louder. These modes might sound louder but will lack the presence of a discreet surround mode.
> 
> I've got a 400w x 5 external amp plus a receiver that drives the other 6 speakers at 142 watts/channel PLUS TWO 1800 watt subs ( in the main tower speakers ) running at about 40% and I can barely get 105 dB at my listening position ( with gain set to zero ) that is 10 feet away. To produce the same results at YOUR 15 feet listening position I would need nearly FOUR times the power. Yes. I'd need more than 10,000 watts of power.


So I need to sit closer :T


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## jevans64

goodears said:


> So I need to sit closer :T


That depends on the size and aspect of your display too. THX recommends 26° to 40° for 1080P. The 40° calculation is to divide the 16/9 diagonal screen size by .84. I like 33°, so that is diagonal/0.70. The maximum distance would be diagonal/0.56.

Do you have a 151" 16/9 screen? 

Most folks sit too far away from their displays.

FYI. Your left/right speakers should be 22° to 30° to the left/right of the center-line of your TV from your listening position.


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## Tom V.

jevans64 said:


> If you are sitting 15 feet away from your speakers your SPL is going to drop about 24 dB by the time it reaches you. So. If you want the 85dB at your listening position, then that would be close to 109 dB coming out of the speakers. Since speaker efficiency is typically measured at 1 meter ( 3.3 feet ) than the drop would be about 14 dB when calculating the SPL from 3 feet to 15 feet, your listening position.
> 
> That is one reason. Another would be a limitation in how much power those receivers can put out, which is typically 40% to 50% lower than their 2-channel rated output. Third reason would be the surround mode. Dolby PLII is matrixed and spread out among all the speakers. A 2-channel or multi-channel processing mode will output a same-power signal to ALL the speakers. That would make 2-channel material sound a little bit louder and multi-channel stereo material definitely sound louder. These modes might sound louder but will lack the presence of a discreet surround mode.
> 
> I've got a 400w x 5 external amp plus a receiver that drives the other 6 speakers at 142 watts/channel PLUS TWO 1800 watt subs ( in the main tower speakers ) running at about 40% and I can barely get 105 dB at my listening position ( with gain set to zero ) that is 10 feet away. To produce the same results at YOUR 15 feet listening position I would need nearly FOUR times the power. Yes. I'd need more than 10,000 watts of power.



Couple things to remember---

First, the inverse square law doesn't apply to in room calculations. You won't lose 6dB with every doubling of distance. 

Second, the 105dB requirement for reference level is purely for short duration transients. These can be demanding but will almost never require the amplifier to sustain the needed current indefinitely. 

At a 4 or 5 meter distance you couldn't possible need 10 kilowatts unless you had extremely inefficient speakers. 

Tom V.


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## Osage_Winter

ALMFamily said:


> Do you mean just the dialogue is low? If so, I would check to see if your AVR has IntelliVolume (I have an Onkyo and that is what it is called there) and bump that up.
> 
> If it does not, consider increasing your trim level on the CC to see if that helps.


I completely agree about the IntelliVolume factor -- this acts as a sort of "input gain adjuster" for each source connected to the AVR, much like what older power amps in the day used with their "input gain sensitivity" knobs; it's not really what IntelliVolume was designed for, as it really was meant to "even out" all the output of the connected devices so one is not ridiculously hotter than another when switching between them, but many Onkyo and Integra fanatics use the IntelliVolume as a sort of "power amp gain" device so sources appear to sound louder at lower master volume levels...

My Oppo Blu-ray player, connected to my Onkyo 605 in my home theater system, is running at "+10dB" on IntelliVolume, while the sources connected to my stereo receiver, an Onkyo 8555, in my two channel setup are all running at "+9dB" on IntelliVolume...

Something to remember: When using any values on these Onkyos (and Integras) that push into the positive ("+") range, whether it's speaker calibration numbers or the IntelliVolume settings, the maximum available master volume will be reduced by that much -- so, for example, if you have IntelliVolume set to "+10dB" for a certain source, your overall maximum available volume will be reduced by 10 (so if "99" is max, the new max will be "89" etc.)...then, you continue adding on the value of whatever other positively-set level you have (speaker levels, etc.)...


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## fmw

Just raise the center channel level until you like the presentation.


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## Osage_Winter

fmw said:


> Just raise the center channel level until you like the presentation.


That's what I have done as well, my center 2dB's higher than the mains...

However, I'm not sure if dialogue was the only issue the OP was having with "volume"...


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## fmw

2 db is nothing. Continue raising it until it sounds right to you.


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## Osage_Winter

fmw said:


> 2 db is nothing. Continue raising it until it sounds right to you.


I'm not the one having the dialogue/volume issues; as far as my system, when I said "2dB" I meant the _physical calibration values_ inside the AVR's setup -- I have my center 2dB's higher than the mains, and this makes a tremendous difference in volume output.


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## tonyvdb

The Denon AVR-1912 and a Yamaha HTR-5930 are not what I would call power houses for driving all channels to decent levels without some distortion. 
I higly suspect that its not so much the volume but the distortion thats making the centre channel not clear. If your running it up to 0db to get it loud and your still not enjoying what you hear getting a receiver with a better power supply to drive the amps is a must. Far to many people get caught up in the numbers when in reality most receivers wont drive all channels or even the front three to reference levels if you have a large room or inefficient speakers.


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## Osage_Winter

I totally agree with Tony's comments above; FAR too many enthusiasts get caught up in these "power rating" number games that the manufacturers play when most AVRs won't put out what they're "rated" at with all channels driven AT ALL. However, that being said, that kind of condition doesn't really exist in the real world -- that is, that EVERY channel of a system would be blaring at the same time under full power compression conditions -- so these ratings are often everything but meaningless. The more "honest" of the AVR -- and amp -- manufacturers will state their products' power output numbers in channels driven format, normally two channels driven (though that seems silly with multichannel amplifiers; it's done so the "low" number of the multichannel rating doesn't "scare" consumers, lol).

At the end of the day, these ratings should be taken with a grain of salt; while you don't really want a receiver that puts out, say, 10 sheer watts to massive power-hungry tower speakers (there are no electronics that really do put out THAT low a rating), this whole formula should be based on actual system performance in someone's room...if your system is cranking to a good level WITHOUT distortion and it fills the listening space with headroom to spare, just ignore the power rating numbers and enjoy...

You agree, Tony?


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## tonyvdb

Yes, I agree. I do also want to add that there are far to many variables in a normal room that can affect how the sound reacts once it leaves the speakers. Speaker placement, furniture location, dimensions of the room, is the room open to other areas of the house and so on. its not just about the receivers capability to drive the speakers.


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## Osage_Winter

Good points.


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## JBrax

Like everyone has said there really is a lot of factors contributing to the variance of sound. The source material can make a huge difference and can account for the differences in what you're hearing. I have gone strictly with Blu-ray for movies and in the process of increasing my library of FLAC music files.


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## Osage_Winter

Indeed; there is also the MASTERING aspect of the equation at play here, which is an interesting point that was missed (I think) -- that is, how a film (or CD/album for that matter) is ultimately mastered at the studio will reflect how we (the end user) perceives the playback quality of the material. I found this out early on in the DVD reviewing days, when it seemed I couldn't get consistency between any of the titles I was reviewing...some would be soft, quiet and almost non-existent in audio output while others exhibited that awesome "overcooked" characteristic all of us HT enthusiasts love that shake our walls to pieces...:yikes: :T :T :hsd:

Unfortunately, that's just the way it is.

Though, getting back to my original point in contributing to this thread, the Onkyo and Integra line of processors and receivers have this "IntelliVolume" control built into them that allows a certain connected source component to "appear" louder at lower master volume levels and so that's why I added my thoughts to the comments on IntelliVolume for the OP...

However, now that I've rechecked the original post, it seems the OP isn't running a piece of Onkyo or Integra anyway, so the point about "IntelliVolume" is moot -- as for ALM suggesting he look for a feature like this on Denon or Yamaha gear, I don't believe any other manufacturer offers such an "input leveling" system...


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## tonyvdb

And remember you cant defy the laws of physics, if your using speakers with a single small driver (less than 6") dont expect it to fill a room that is open concept and has vaulted ceilings. Just not going to happen without distortion.


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## Osage_Winter

Indeed -- with room characteristics that large and imposing, big towers with big power handling (like my RTi12's  :bigsmile: :sneeky should be utilized, powered by equally formidable amplification...and, the usage of a GOOD sub or several should be implemented so the strain can be lifted off the main channels to reproduce that low bass and free up headroom in the AVR or amp(s)...


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## fmw

Osage_Winter said:


> Indeed -- with room characteristics that large and imposing, big towers with big power handling (like my RTi12's  :bigsmile: :sneeky should be utilized, powered by equally formidable amplification...and, the usage of a GOOD sub or several should be implemented so the strain can be lifted off the main channels to reproduce that low bass and free up headroom in the AVR or amp(s)...


Even more to the point is that 100 watts per channel is sort of a "magic" number that the industry set decades ago. The reality is that most of us would do fine with 20 watts per channel. In my own system I drive fairly insensitive 4-6 ohm speakers with a receiver. My main speakers only draw a single watt on average with peaks a little over 18 watts. What possible difficulty could that be for any receiver?

We've been trained by the industry to think that x needs y when, most of the time, it simply isn't true. I could count the speakers that I know of that would bring a receiver to its knees on the fingers of one hand and they all cost well into 5 figures. It doesn't even make economic sense for a speaker manufacturer to make products that can't be driven by a receiver since 99% of home theaters that don't use soundbars use receivers or HTIB's.

So as not confuse anybody with my rant, I'm not suggesting that his room is normal. It may not be.

All receivers have enough power to drive normal speakers in normal home listening rooms. All receivers have enough ability to deal with impedance loads for normal speakers in normal listening rooms. Remember, low impedances are normally in small areas of the impedance curve and often above the audible spectrum. The receiver impedance ratings are full power. We simply don't use full power without damaging our hearing in normal listening rooms. 

The need for exotic outboard amplifiers is rare in home audio. It is however commonly wanted and so the industry piles on. Don't let power ratings and impedance ratings worry you. Look around to find someone that cooked an amplifier with a speaker. Keep looking. You may find one some day.


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## chashint

Unless the AVR is overheating or distorting why is the position of the volume knob a concern?
What speakers are currently in the system?


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## Osage_Winter

fmw said:


> Even more to the point is that 100 watts per channel is sort of a "magic" number that the industry set decades ago. The reality is that most of us would do fine with 20 watts per channel. In my own system I drive fairly insensitive 4-6 ohm speakers with a receiver. My main speakers only draw a single watt on average with peaks a little over 18 watts. What possible difficulty could that be for any receiver?
> 
> We've been trained by the industry to think that x needs y when, most of the time, it simply isn't true. I could count the speakers that I know of that would bring a receiver to its knees on the fingers of one hand and they all cost well into 5 figures. It doesn't even make economic sense for a speaker manufacturer to make products that can't be driven by a receiver since 99% of home theaters that don't use soundbars use receivers or HTIB's.
> 
> So as not confuse anybody with my rant, I'm not suggesting that his room is normal. It may not be.
> 
> All receivers have enough power to drive normal speakers in normal home listening rooms. All receivers have enough ability to deal with impedance loads for normal speakers in normal listening rooms. Remember, low impedances are normally in small areas of the impedance curve and often above the audible spectrum. The receiver impedance ratings are full power. We simply don't use full power without damaging our hearing in normal listening rooms.
> 
> The need for exotic outboard amplifiers is rare in home audio. It is however commonly wanted and so the industry piles on. Don't let power ratings and impedance ratings worry you. Look around to find someone that cooked an amplifier with a speaker. Keep looking. You may find one some day.


Some good points made here in the flavor of the thread; indeed, this "100 watts-per-channel" has become a sort of industry myth or mental propaganda tool that everyone has sort of "bought into," especially novices in this -- and the two channel -- hobby...it's like an invisible mental line that is crossed where folks say "well, if I don't HAVE 100 watts going into EACH speaker, I'm gonna jump off the Brooklyn Bridge..." because we were kind of fed that over the years via enthusiast publications/sites/shops etc. The same thing happens with the "invisible price point" foray, in which the "$1000" mark tends to be the "mental barrier" consumers don't like to go beyond -- whether it's electronics or not...ever notice that? I must say, I have played victim to this phenomenon as well...for whatever reason, once a piece of gear goes beyond $999, it somehow becomes "way too out of reach" to afford. In reality, the $800 or so mark is probably way too much for most to afford...:spend: :sarcastic: :rofl2: But for some reason, when we look at AVRs or amps that reach beyond that $1000 mark, they suddenly become unattainable; with displays/TVs, we have kind of come to expect these devices to be a good deal over a grand for a very large size so we sort of swallow this fact...

Here's the thing regarding something you touched on in your post above -- what MOST people getting into this (or the two channel audio) hobby don't understand is that there's really no such thing as TOO MUCH ultra-clean, high-current amplification...it's actually HEALTHY for speakers (given that they're at least of decent pedigree of SOME sort). People worry too much about the "juice" going to given speakers from a receiver or amp when it's more a matter of an amplifier "not being able to handle all that LOUDSPEAKER" if it's anything...you know, the whole "what is the RIGHT amp to hook up to my, say, Polk LSi towers because they're low sensitivity/low impedance?" debacle. 

That being said, while I learned that I am indeed "pushing enough" juice to my RTi12 towers from my Onkyo 605 because the Polks are of good sensitivity and easy-to-drive 8 ohm nominal load presentation, they can handle some 500 watts a piece so I'm always flirting with the idea of external amplification to really get 'em to ROCK and add more headroom, which is what I fear running out of if anything; but you make a good point about an average listening room requiring no more than what an "average" receiver puts out and that exotic power amps in an average system really aren't required. They do look cool in a rack or stack of gear though, don't they? :coocoo: :T  :yikes:


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## Osage_Winter

chashint said:


> Unless the AVR is overheating or distorting why is the position of the volume knob a concern?
> What speakers are currently in the system?


With regard to your first question, for some -- I plead guilty to this -- it's just a "mental" thing...we don't like to "see" the higher end of the master volume range being approached "too soon" and prefer a different "gain stage perception" if that makes any sense...sure, in reality, it doesn't matter what it SAYS on the receiver's display window in terms of volume number (50, 60, 70) as long as the sound is clean and there's available headroom beyond everyday listening levels (we're assuming someone doesn't play their system with volume on MAX AVAILABLE as I would think something is wrong then...especially if there's no distortion at that point). However, some Onkyo AVR owners, for example, have often complained over the years about what they perceived to be "not enough volume gain" lower in the volume output scale...in other words, they feel they have to turn their receivers up to levels like "50, 60" or higher when the unit will only go so far beyond that and approaches max output rather quickly. There is a "mental fear" or worry that the max volume is being approached too fast if they have to crank their systems up THAT high to really get "immersed" in the sound...and I know exactly where they were coming from because I felt that way when I bought my first Onk, the TX-SR600 rated at 80 watts X 6. Thus, this "IntelliVolume" feature built into Onkyo and Integra (their upscale division) receivers and processors allow "jacking up" for lack of a better term of individual source input stage gains for components connected to the unit -- much like what power amplifiers of yesteryear offered with their "gain adjustment" controls -- so the audio would "seem" much louder at "lower" volume display numbers on the receiver's front panel...

As I said, I suffered from this sick mental condition as well, which is why I have always used Onkyo's clever IntelliVolume...


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## Viking

Osage_Winter said:


> With regard to your first question, for some -- I plead guilty to this -- it's just a "mental" thing...we don't like to "see" the higher end of the master volume range being approached "too soon" and prefer a different "gain stage perception" if that makes any sense...sure, in reality, it doesn't matter what it SAYS on the receiver's display window in terms of volume number (50, 60, 70) as long as the sound is clean and there's available headroom beyond everyday listening levels (we're assuming someone doesn't play their system with volume on MAX AVAILABLE as I would think something is wrong then...especially if there's no distortion at that point). However, some Onkyo AVR owners, for example, have often complained over the years about what they perceived to be "not enough volume gain" lower in the volume output scale...in other words, they feel they have to turn their receivers up to levels like "50, 60" or higher when the unit will only go so far beyond that and approaches max output rather quickly. There is a "mental fear" or worry that the max volume is being approached too fast if they have to crank their systems up THAT high to really get "immersed" in the sound...and I know exactly where they were coming from because I felt that way when I bought my first Onk, the TX-SR600 rated at 80 watts X 6. Thus, this "IntelliVolume" feature built into Onkyo and Integra (their upscale division) receivers and processors allow "jacking up" for lack of a better term of individual source input stage gains for components connected to the unit -- much like what power amplifiers of yesteryear offered with their "gain adjustment" controls -- so the audio would "seem" much louder at "lower" volume display numbers on the receiver's front panel...
> 
> As I said, I suffered from this sick mental condition as well, which is why I have always used Onkyo's clever IntelliVolume...


EXACTLY. And now I can settle myself down. Thank you Osage Winter for this most invaluable insight into the Onkyo. I only just bought my first, having had Pioneer, NAD and Sony, all of which louded out my speakers at much lower volume numbers. So, why do I have to turn my Onkyo up to 70 out of a max of 90 to become immersed in my movies? - Answer = because. End of story. I gotta find that IntelliVolume thingy in this here Onkyo and see if that lays more of my concerns to rest, as you have taken care of most of them. Again I thank you.


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## Andre

I do have bad hearing...

I have found you have to crank up old Dolby Pro more then Dolby HD. As I used a laser light pen and adjusted the angle of my centre so that the tweeters aim directly at my head.

You can download a Free decibel meter for your smart phone


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## Osage_Winter

Viking said:


> EXACTLY. And now I can settle myself down. Thank you Osage Winter for this most invaluable insight into the Onkyo. I only just bought my first, having had Pioneer, NAD and Sony, all of which louded out my speakers at much lower volume numbers. So, why do I have to turn my Onkyo up to 70 out of a max of 90 to become immersed in my movies? - Answer = because. End of story. I gotta find that IntelliVolume thingy in this here Onkyo and see if that lays more of my concerns to rest, as you have taken care of most of them. Again I thank you.


You are very welcome, Viking; indeed, many new-to-the-brand Onkyo users aren't aware of this IntelliVolume feature.


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