# 5.0 Cabinet Speakers in 17'x11'x10'(WxLxH) space within 26.5'x17.5'x10' room for $850



## Typhoon859 (Apr 9, 2010)

*5.0 Cabinet Speakers in a 17'x11'x10'(WxLxH) space within a 26.5'x17.5'x10' room ~ $850*

****For the section between the dotted lines, I have a TLDR for it. Sorry, I know this is long. *

...

Hi guys! So.. I have limited experience with the endless companies that release speakers, as can be said for most people who are simply enthusiasts; I'm looking for opinions. For it to be otherwise, I would need the luxury of having been able to swap in and out all the signature speakers within similar price ranges of each company in a minimally sound altering room. What I can do instead is mix and match characteristic descriptions of suggested speakers and line that up with what I'm looking for. That's in fact what I do. 

I will narrow down the field of scope for what I would like as much as possible. Pretty much all of the following will be to help form a picture and ideas in terms of what to suggest, not to limit you with each successive detail though. In other words, ideally yes, but you don't need to be familiar with each thing I mention to make suggestions - just the general idea of the type of sound and a technical grasp for the room environment. Thanks 

Firstly, here's a relatively accurate diagram of the room. Each square is approximately one foot. From bottom to top is 17.5 feet:









The floor and walls are regular wood and drywall. The front speakers would go on the shelves (although really it's like 2.1' tall wooden cabinets). The surround speakers would go on speakers stands. The placement is fairly obvious; any nuances can be figured out; no need for concern in that area. I feel as though the distancing and positioning can be figured out quite ideally. 

The diagram should really extend further, but further is simply more of the dining room and then the kitchen. It is all connected and forms a total "width" of 26.5 ft., as suggested in the title. The mentioned space in the title is from the wall with the "shelves" to the back of the couch.

The speakers are being paired with an *Onkyo TX-NR809 Receiver*.

I will likely extend the setup to 7.1 at some point but for now the rear speakers aren't of concern. The subwoofer budget is around $500-$600 but as there is another section for that, details will be posted in a separate thread. 

I was thinking of splitting up the budget for the speakers like so: $175 each for the Front L&R, $200 for the Center, and $150 each for the Side L&R. It can be spread out of course however, although, I feel this makes the most sense. The budget can really only be pushed by $50, $25 more each for the Front L&R I was thinking. Also, these amounts aren't limited to current pricing. If there are ever known deals on whatever suggested speakers, that can be taken into account, no matter how extreme/rare. Those are target prices for the minimum. I will constantly be tracking once I come to a decision. 

For the size of the room, I'm thinking 6 ohm speakers would be best? Generally speaking, relative to how speakers tend to be designed, I'm thinking that this would allow for louder sound at lower volumes? This may be just some random claim I heard somewhere which made sense to me at the time. What I'm simply suggesting is that I'm looking for the speakers to be designed not to need a crazy amount of amplification to be decently loud. From what I understand, this kind of design also tends to be better for dialogue. The reason for this is that it'd provided a sense of clarity at lower volumes since mid and lower frequencies would then be less prominent. In any case, I'm looking for speakers that don't require a ridiculous amount of power to drive. For the purposes of this setup in particular, it is more for TV and movies than it is for music, although I'd of course like it to sound well with music also. In the end, good speakers are good speakers and at this price range, I don't think I should need to make too many compromises in one direction or another. The only technical compromises for the most part should be just what's mentioned above - no sacrifices in the tone as it relates to music. The sacrifice in that sense here would be the dynamic volume in music since more amplification would inevitably more accurately reproduces differences in volume (less compression) and more uniformly and naturally reproduces middle to lower ranges. I know I'm contradicting myself a bit but what I'm saying is that I'd like a fine balance between the two, slightly leaning towards the above mentioned design. 

*Sound & Tone Preferences-*
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With the intended purpose now mentioned, I'd like to now describe the kind of sound I'm looking for, using as many examples as I can from my accumulated experience _with music_. 

In terms of what's worth mentioning specifically about which I understand enough/have enough experience with, the Logitech Z-5500 system, the entry level Onkyo HT-S6100 HTiB, and the Toyota Corolla 2007/2008 JBL Audio System comes to mind. A little strange on that last one, I know, lol. 

The first two speaker systems in the above mentioned are fairly popular so my thoughts on it might give some perspective. Of course I will try to shorten the thoughts as not to give full-on reviews. So, as far as Logitech goes, I really like the sharpness of the sound while it maintains a certain warmth to it. The mids kind of bleed into each other so that may be the reason why; clarity suffers for it but the sharpness, probably due to certain spikes in treble, colors that flaw relatively well. The tone of the subwoofer is also great, although boomy. (I got the system for $300, however many years ago it was already, and there's simply no better bang for the buck.) Now, as far as the Onkyo system goes, let's just say this.. The lower mids are impossible to neutralize which constantly gives dialogue a muddy sound and treble is only existent if you're sitting relatively close to the speakers and have them pointed within one degree towards your ears; sense of direction suffers for it. That's probably my biggest negative and a very important issue which needs to be significantly improved upon in the current selection. This is a surround system after all. Now, on the other hand, bass extension for those speakers is decent and the general tone of the speakers is quite nice for music - just lacks excitement in the treble area and often times just sounds muddy. Last thing I would say is that the Onkyo speakers always sound distant in general and definitely so in comparison to the Logitech speakers. An important factor they have over the Logitech on the other hand is natural sound. The Onkyo speakers are natural sounding and less distracting for casual listening while the Logitech speakers' sound is forced.

The Toyota Corolla JBL mentioned stock system is VERY impressive (in the front row of the car and more-so when stopped when no external noise is factored in). It's a fairly common car and maybe some of you guys may have experienced it and took notice (always more noticeable with music you know). In terms of my preference with speakers out of what I have owned, currently own, and have heard from countless other sources and places (cars, the many people's computer speakers, home stereo systems like from the older days, home theater systems), I prefer listening there. Of course, this is relative to lower end stuff but I mean, not all of which is total . I could name some specific things but that'd be besides the point. The point is this: the sound feels very close, almost headphone like; the stereo soundstage is decent (I understand that it's designed for the specific space and that everything else I've likely heard wasn't perfectly positioned - a problem which needs to be deliberated when selecting speakers here); and the tone is perfect! It's a little bit on the warmer side, absolutely not fatiguing, and characteristic of the actual sound, so probably relatively flat with a few small bumps in determined areas. Tone for lower frequencies is also quite accurate (listening with Bass: 2) although not quite fully extended. In general, it's just a great balance between a fun sound and accuracy. Only thing I'd say is that it lacks separation, that which also creates problems with clarity. It's for a different reason though, better than the reason than that with the Onkyo speakers. It'd be even worse with them if it weren't for my upgraded receiver to the TX-NR708. 

I need to now bring up headphones because apart from the JBL car system, headphones are the other two sources where I enjoy/prefer listening to my music over anything else. The absolute perfect sound through a properly decoded and amplified source (with slightly boosted bass) is with the Brainwavz HM5 (Fischer Audio FA-003) headphones. They are full-sized closed cans and the best way to describe them would be absolutely neutral and unbiased. They play exactly what you give them. They have incredible, perfect separation; you can hear the exact distances of every instrument, voice, chorus, or whatever. You can hear exactly where everything is placed in the stereo soundstage - very fine points all the way from far left to far right. All I can say is that certain songs which are made interesting by the JBL system (due to more of like a collage/blending of the sound and certain boosted areas), kind of sound boring on the headphones even though more accurate and separated. A baby of the two would be a perfect _listening experience_! That's pretty much what one would be looking for in a surround sound system I would think - certainly I. 

The other pair of headphones are IEMs: the Brainwavz M2's. They sound a little bit muffled with VERY SLIGHTLY "overly fun" bass which I correct with my Cowon J3 PMP ("MP3 Player") with it's EQ. The result, I mean, and even on their own, they are otherwise wonderfully pleasant sounding headphones. Amazing natural sounding instruments with very warm (like in a humid wooden cabin) tones. Incredibly fun and full sounding with a signature that very rarely interferes with the intended sound of a song. Overall, just natural sounding... 


*TLDR-* 
-I'm looking for relatively flat sounding speakers with potential tradeoffs only for _a)_ a tone slightly on the warmer side, _b)_ SLIGHT peaks here and there for bringing a bit of excitement to the sound, and _c)_ a sense of extension in the soundstage (tricks with tweeters). 
-I would like there to be a great sense of presence - for the speakers not to feel distant like my experience with entry level Onkyo speakers. 
-Another problem of significant importance and drastic improvement which I'm looking for is sense of direction relative to those Onkyo Speakers. In general it's an important factor which also ends up contributing to soundstage.
-If familiar, I would be fully satisfied with anything similar in design individually or mixed with the *Toyota Corolla 2007 (and years further up most likely) JBL sound system*, _and/or_ *Brainwavz HM5 (Fischer Audio FA-003) monitor headphones*, _and_ *Brainwavz M2 IEM headphones*.
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*


So that's that! Thank you guys profusely, especially if you read through this whole thing! I greatly appreciate your time! Any suggestions would be helpful - what you think would be the best bang for the buck and fits my preference. Once again, thank you, sincerely!



-David


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Hi appreciate the level of thought you've put into this. :clap:



> For the size of the room, I'm thinking 6 ohm speakers would be best?


No particular reason this would be the case. I have a thread here which might be of interest to you:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ms-do-your-speaker-receiver-fit-together.html



> Generally speaking, relative to how speakers tend to be designed, I'm thinking that this would allow for louder sound at lower volumes?


No offense, but that really made no sense. "Louder sound at lower volumes" is a bit of an oxymoron. Mind clarifying what you mean?


Now, as far as the Onkyo system goes, let's just say this.. The lower mids are impossible to neutralize which constantly gives dialogue a muddy sound


> You've got these shoved on a wall-mount shelf right? Do you mind putting them on some makeshift stands and pulling them out into the room and just giving us a bit of a commentary on if that did anything to this aspect of the sound IYO?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

If you do not go with tower speakers - and if you have room for the rear ports to breathe.
Then look at 2 pairs of the PSB Alpha's
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PBALB1 PSIE

And the Alpha C1 center.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=2PBALC1 SIE


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## Typhoon859 (Apr 9, 2010)

GranteedEV said:


> No particular reason this would be the case. I have a thread here which might be of interest to you:
> 
> http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ms-do-your-speaker-receiver-fit-together.html


Lol, I actually understand this. Umm, I may have given the impression otherwise for reasons related to what you mentioned below XD



> No offense, but that really made no sense. "Louder sound at lower volumes" is a bit of an oxymoron. Mind clarifying what you mean?


This may have been from some random claim I heard somewhere which made sense to me at the time. I was thinking just that many speakers designed for the purposes I'm seeking are focused around being 6 ohm nominal impedance. I understand this was probably wrong and I knew these two sentences would come back to bite me. 

In regards to "louder sound at lower volume", I was just suggesting that I was looking for this kind of particular design in which the speakers don't need a crazy amount of amplification to be decently loud. In other words, designed with less resistance rather than more. The reason for this is that it provides a sense of clearer sound at lower volumes since lower and mid frequencies are less prominent. 

I don't want the design to be like this overly so but that's pretty much the area in which I was asking clarification for essentially, which is probably why I ended up leaving those two sentences, lol.

I now fixed the paragraph to make it clearer in that regard.



> You've got these shoved on a wall-mount shelf right? Do you mind putting them on some makeshift stands and pulling them out into the room and just giving us a bit of a commentary on if that did anything to this aspect of the sound IYO?


Sorry if I didn't mention, but this Onkyo system is not located in the same place. That is in my bedroom in a different house and is actually placed as you say. I've actually had these speakers in three location already, positioned and mounted and several different ways. In all cases, even though varying in levels, that was still a noticeable issue.



> While there's many reasons this may be the case, I want to point out that you shouldn't necessarily consider "sounding distant" to be a bad thing. Often it can imply good design.


As I just mentioned, this system has seen several locations and in neither case did I feel that this was a good thing. I don't see how it's a good thing as what I mean by distant is inaccurately so. In other words, the distance of what's being played isn't accurately represented relative to how it's in fact supposed to feel. Apart from that, I also just have a preference for closer sound, probably rooting for my enjoyable experiences with headphones, in particular the M2's which is as close as it gets. 



> We've got a Harman/JBL system in my dad's ML350 as well, and it's pretty nice, albeit the bass bloat can be distracting.


Yes, I have to agree. The bass is a bit bloated at times but I always felt it's potential for being worse even with slight differences within the car/system. I can't say that is the case here but yes, it is there. In one word, I would simply describe it as being enjoyable - nothing more sophisticated. 



> I've got these M2s lying around somewhere... They're decent enough for what they are but I recall them being rather on the dark side.


This I'd have to disagree with, more than just in my opinion. My Cowon J3 PMP has quite a cold/harsh sound to it, especially by default. My headphones prior to these were on the darker side and the result was quite unpleasant. I went on a search to correct this and many suggestions on Head-Fi pointed towards the M2's. To those that suggested them, they all mentioned their warmth in tone and in general I wouldn't say their dark. Dark would be something like the Sennheiser HD 595's.



> The speakers I feel I should recommend to you, the Infinity Primus P363, may fit most of your criteria, except they are floorstanders, so placing them on a shelf may not be an option....
> 
> Try auditioning them and evaluating whether you could make them work.


VERY unfortunately, I tried thinking of a way to make floor standing speakers work and there just isn't. In between the cabinets in front, there'd be no way to position them properly distanced (at the very best it would be very awkward), and I can't place them in front of the cabinets because then they'd just be blocking them. Plus, it would just look awkward. 

Those look really nice though. Wish that was an option... Probably better in ratio with price than any bookshelf speakers I could find, taking into consideration the difference in size that is... Hopefully there is something great.


Thanks for your response! 




zieglj01 said:


> If you do not go with tower speakers - and if you have room for the rear ports to breathe.
> Then look at 2 pairs of the PSB Alpha's
> http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PBALB1 PSIE
> 
> ...


Hmm, well, this may be a wrong way to judge but they seem a bit small relative to the size of the mentioned room, no? 

I was also hoping for the sensitivity to be at least 96 dB. I mean, the minimum amount, even 16-bit audio has that much range. Or.. am I confusing two things? I do understand though that it might not make much of a difference which I would significantly perceive and that for the mentioned purposes above, it even may be silly, but I feel like that would provide a higher standard for things all around. Especially for the Front L&R speakers, I would also just like there to be an option in case I did want to do some testing with whatever it may be. 

Also, what can you personally say about the way they sound?


Thanks


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

Typhoon859 said:


> VERY unfortunately, I tried thinking of a way to make floor standing speakers work and there just isn't. In between the cabinets in front, there'd be no way to position them properly distanced (at the very best it would be very awkward), and I can't place them in front of the cabinets because then they'd just be blocking them. Plus, it would just look awkward.
> 
> Those look really nice though. Wish that was an option... Probably better in ratio with price than any bookshelf speakers I could find, taking into consideration the difference in size that is... Hopefully there is something great.
> 
> ...


With all due respect, with your placement restrictions and tight budget - sacrafice may be the
name of the game. 

People hear things differently, and audition is the way to go. The sound character of the PSB
is close to what you are looking for, if you treat them with respect. They play way above the
Onkyo and Logitech, and the JBL home speakers for the same price range.

Not my favorite - however, they are decent and popular.
The Primus 163
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=723778&Q=&is=REG&A=details

I have no experience or comment to make about this company - this is for exploration only.
Chase Home Theater
http://www.chasehometheater.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=102&vmcchk=1&Itemid=102

You will need to weigh out your options and decide what compromises you will make. You may
need to build your system in sections, and save up. Have fun and good luck.


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## Typhoon859 (Apr 9, 2010)

zieglj01 said:


> With all due respect, with your placement restrictions and tight budget - sacrafice may be the name of the game.


Well.. the only restriction is that I said I'm looking for cabinet speakers. There aren't any placement restrictions for that. Just, floor standing speakers aren't an option. Out of any sacrifice you can make from what I've seen, at this price range in terms of ratio in quality between floor standing and bookshelf, this would be the smallest one.



> People hear things differently, and audition is the way to go. The sound character of the PSB
> is close to what you are looking for, if you treat them with respect. They play way above the
> Onkyo and Logitech, and the JBL home speakers for the same price range.


Lol, well, Logitech and Onkyo I wasn't even considering, within this price range or otherwise. JBL I don't know about when it comes to home audio speakers, though they certainly had my interest, even before my experience with my car speakers. 

You're determinately saying that the PSB speakers mentioned in the post above by Zieglj01 are better than anything JBL in the price range of up to $200, deals or without? For that matter, even anything else?



> Not my favorite - however, they are decent and popular.
> The Primus 163
> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=723778&Q=&is=REG&A=details


Those look nice, but from my experience the most popular, especially when it comes to audio, is often times what I end up liking least. They usually have very gimmicky characteristics which just pleases inexperienced listeners and markets to the general public. Beats would be a fine example XD

You yourself don't seem to be terribly excited by this idea, lol. 

In general the feedback from multiple places I'm getting so far isn't too enthusiastic about any suggestions. Is it because the price range is really that limiting? At this point, at least for the fronts, $200 per speaker with a good deal should be plenty for something decent. There has to be some kind of relative find like the Brainwavz HM5 (Fisher Audio FA-003) headphones are @ $95. Amazing deal even for $120, which they go for during pre-order. 



> I have no experience or comment to make about this company - this is for exploration only.
> Chase Home Theater
> http://www.chasehometheater.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=102&vmcchk=1&Itemid=102


These have the kind of specifications which I was hoping for but unfortunately, even with any potential deal I can imagine, these are significantly over my price range... 



> You will need to weigh out your options and decide what compromises you will make. You may
> need to build your system in sections, and save up. Have fun and good luck.


Thanks!  I'm not exactly sure what you mean by having to decide between compromises. All I see are those which have already been made. There's the maximum price I can go for (though not restricted by time) and I have the type which they need to be: cabinet/bookshelf speakers. Other that that, everything is out in the open. 

Anyway, thanks again!!


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