# Help/guidance/advice needed with new home theater set-up



## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

Hi- 

Just found this site, and I completely respect you folks and your knowledge/passion for this stuff. I'm a "beginner," and, of course, probably made some rookie mistakes. I have a Bose Acoustimass 10 system (stop laughing) connected to a Yamaha RXV-375 receiver. My tv is a 40" Samsung LCD, and my Blu Ray is Samsung as well. Everything hooked up HDMI through receiver. 

I know there's major disdain for Bose among audiophiles, but for my purposes- in an apartment currently- it's fine, and I'm lucky to have it. If any of you good folks can answer some of my questions regarding how to get the best performance out of my system I would be grateful. I'm constantly tampering with settings. So, I think it's time to ask the experts.

1. Should I use Yamaha's YPAO automatic set-up or do this manually?
2. Do I set the Bose speakers as large or small? I'm reading different things in the Bose manual and the Yamaha manual.
3. I measured the distance from each speaker to the central listening/viewing position on the couch- directly in front of the TV, and entered this into the Yamaha receiver. Is this the best way to these measurements? The measurements are LF= 13.5ft / C= 13ft / RF= 13.5ft / Sub= 13.5ft / LR= 5.6ft / RR= 5.6ft.
4. Should I tamper with the equalizer settings on the Yamaha or leave it off? I have the option.
5. What do you recommend for the Tone control settings for Bass and Treble on the receiver (-6db / bypass / -6db)? I can't tell if this is making difference.
6. What should I set my subwoofer level at? I currently have it at 40hz. 
7. I have my front LF & RF speaker levels set higher than my center. This seems appropriate. Agree?
8. I live on the third floor. I don't want to annoy my neighbors with bass, but I want to enjoy the system. Any suggestions on making everyone happy? 
9. I'm told the best sound field setting to use on the receiver is Dolby Pro logic II. Agree? 
10. Why do some folks hook their Bose speakers directly into their receiver and bypass the module sub? Sounds crazy to me...but what do I know. 
11. What is the major argument against Bose? Is it the cost or is their a legitimate argument against their construction/ engineering/acoustics? 
12. I currently have my rear speakers on stands to either side of the couch pointing directly at ear level. Should they be mounted higher on the wall or above the couch pointing down?
13. I have a feeling the sub is in the worst place. I can't put it directly under the TV in the center because my daughter will trip over it. It's to the left side of the entertainment unit and covered on three sides with the sound hole facing out into the open space of the living room. Should I move it to the other end where it will only be covered on the back and left side?is there any advantage to having it on the other side of the room next to the couch? 


Thanks folks....much appreciated.

Evan


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Evan98 said:


> 1. Should I use Yamaha's YPAO automatic set-up or do this manually?


Use YPAO unless you have the proper equipment and understanding to do it manually. No test gear, then it's YPAO for sure.


Evan98 said:


> 2. Do I set the Bose speakers as large or small? I'm reading different things in the Bose manual and the Yamaha manual.


Since you're using the entire Bose system, and assuming you have them connected per the Bose manual, you have to set them them for "Large", even though they aren't. The Bose sub has it's own bass management, but for that to work it must get full bass on all channels. Large does that.


Evan98 said:


> 3. I measured the distance from each speaker to the central listening/viewing position on the couch- directly in front of the TV, and entered this into the Yamaha receiver. Is this the best way to these measurements? The measurements are LF= 13.5ft / C= 13ft / RF= 13.5ft / Sub= 13.5ft / LR= 5.6ft / RR= 5.6ft.


That's fine but YPAO will take care of that for you too.


Evan98 said:


> 4. Should I tamper with the equalizer settings on the Yamaha or leave it off? I have the option.


Leave it off.


Evan98 said:


> 5. What do you recommend for the Tone control settings for Bass and Treble on the receiver (-6db / bypass / -6db)? I can't tell if this is making difference.


Bypass


Evan98 said:


> 6. What should I set my subwoofer level at? I currently have it at 40hz.


There are two adjustments, the one you're asking about is not level but crossover frequency. That's the frequency below which the sub works and the mains don't (a bit simplified...) Then there's sub level, which is essentially it's own volume control. Again, running YPAO should take care of that for you, but if doing it manually or with directly-connected LCRS speakers, with the Bose speakers, crossover at 100 to 120 would be more correct, and level...well, without instrumentation, you just have to do it by ear. But if you're using the entire Bose system along with YPAO, it's taken care of. Frankly, the combination makes things a bit difficult, but try that first.


Evan98 said:


> 7. I have my front LF & RF speaker levels set higher than my center. This seems appropriate. Agree?


They should all be identical...but only in terms of actual measure SPL (Sound Pressure Level), not necessarily any numerical setting, which you can't do by ear. Again, let YPAO do it's thing.


Evan98 said:


> 8. I live on the third floor. I don't want to annoy my neighbors with bass, but I want to enjoy the system. Any suggestions on making everyone happy?


Invite them over for a movie and serve great popcorn.


Evan98 said:


> 9. I'm told the best sound field setting to use on the receiver is Dolby Pro logic II. Agree?


That's fine for movies, but your system will auto-switch to the appropriate mode when receiving digital audio streams from your source device regardless. For example, if you play a disc with any of the Dolby Digital sound formats, your AVR will auto-switch to decoding that rather than use Pro Logic. ProLogic and other surround modes are designed to "decode" two-channel material into left, center, right, surround L and surround R. Early "Dolby Stereo" films only had two tracks, left and right, as did Beta HiFi, VHS HiFi, and Laserdisc. ProLogic is an outgrowth of the technology used to decode those two channel soundtracks into surround. There's a Pro Logic Music setting on some AVRs, and a few others meant for processing stereo music into surround. You may like different settings for music, just play with them. Avoid fake-outs like stadiums, theaters, and church settings. 


Evan98 said:


> 10. Why do some folks hook their Bose speakers directly into their receiver and bypass the module sub? Sounds crazy to me...but what do I know.


They do that to bypass the bass management in the Bose sub. Personal choice, but those Bose things are designed as a complete system, one would hope the boys at Bose at least got that right. If you connect the small speakers to your AVR directly, you can play with crossover frequency, and you'd then set your AVR for "Small" speakers. And again, let YPAO figure it out.


Evan98 said:


> 11. What is the major argument against Bose? Is it the cost or is their a legitimate argument against their construction/ engineering/acoustics?


It's primarily a cost vs performance argument. They are expensive for the resulting sound quality. Bose has done an amazing job in two areas: impossibly tiny speakers, and superb marketing. They sell a ton of systems through expensive ads targeted to the uninitiated, dedicated stores, and lots of word of mouth. Most Bose systems I run into are there because of a friend or relative with a Bose system. I have the greatest respect for Dr. Bose and his company, and am amazed at what they've done in the marketplace. I also never ever recommend them.


Evan98 said:


> 12. I currently have my rear speakers on stands to either side of the couch pointing directly at ear level. Should they be mounted higher on the wall or above the couch pointing down?


First, they aren't technically "rear" speakers, they are "surround" speakers. In film, surround sound is intended to be a largely directionless enveloping soundfield. So farther away would work better. I've actually put some behind furniture and pointed them at the ceiling, which provides a somewhat more diffuse field. Too close and you'll tend to localize the one speaker you're closest to. 


Evan98 said:


> 13. I have a feeling the sub is in the worst place. I can't put it directly under the TV in the center because my daughter will trip over it. It's to the left side of the entertainment unit and covered on three sides with the sound hole facing out into the open space of the living room. Should I move it to the other end where it will only be covered on the back and left side?is there any advantage to having it on the other side of the room next to the couch?


Hard to say not being in your room. You'll have to experiment, or try the subwoofer crawl (google it). Even if we knew more about the room it would be hard to predict where it would work best. But in general, it works best where you can't live with it, so do the crawl and be prepared to make some compromises.


Evan98 said:


> Thanks folks....much appreciated.
> 
> Evan


Welcome!


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Evan98 said:


> Hi-
> 13. I have a feeling the sub is in the worst place. I can't put it directly under the TV in the center because my daughter will trip over it. It's to the left side of the entertainment unit and covered on three sides with the sound hole facing out into the open space of the living room. Should I move it to the other end where it will only be covered on the back and left side?is there any advantage to having it on the other side of the room next to the couch?
> Evan


With the Bose system, the bass module is not just a subwoofer, it also plays higher frequencies which are directional. Where you have the bass module sounds like the best place for you (it might be better on the end that is more open). It needs to be front and centered as much as possible with the center channel speaker. Having the sound hole directed toward listening area is usually good in my experience. Try to place it in the most open space available.
Next to the couch is not good because you may hear Darth Vader's voice come from there intead of from the display area.
Now a true separate subwoofer may be good next to the couch.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Gentlemen,
Those were two very good responses.
Well done.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Evan98,
Welcome to the forum.
Hang around and ask as many questions as you need to.
I personally do not think anyone need ever apologize for their gear whether it be a entry level HTIB, a $50k behemoth, or anything in between.
The people here will genuinely try to help optimize it or troubleshoot a problem with it.


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

Gentlemen:

My father, who was an electrical engineer, amateur radio operator and AV "nut" would have fallen in love with this forum and your incredible ability to break down the technical so that the "rookie's"- like me - can understand this stuff and start to build quality systems of our own. Unfortunately, dad died in 2005 from a heart attack just as he was finally about to retire his cherished Dynaco speakers and AR receiver and build a home theater system that I'm sure you guys would have had input in and that I know my mom would have hated you for!

I read and re-read all of your advice. Most of it I understand, and some of it is a bit over my head. That said, I think you folks can only break down this stuff so much before beginners- like me- simply have to do some of the research on our own and then come back to you with another round of questions that show we truly are interested.

I ran the Yamaha YPAO again and left the settings it recommended after the set-up alone (although I did lower the Center channel level a bit as I thought it was over taking the left and right fronts a tad). I also moved the sub to the opposite end of the entertainment unit so that it's not completely enclosed on three sides with the sound hole facing the listening position on the couch. The YPAO set the LF, RF, and C speakers as "large" and the surrounds as "small." I left this setting alone as well. The sub was set to -10db and crossover 40hz with the YPAO also putting the "extra bass"setting on. On the Bose sub/module I left the Bass level knob at mid-level (that half-way point I assume) and, I hate to admit this to y'all, I have no idea what to do with the LFE. The Yamaha's equalizer and tone control settings are all on "off" or "Bypass." I have the receiver set to Pro Logic II.

The result is an overall system that definitely suits my needs (wishes) in a two bedroom apartment with a wife (who hates this stuff) and a two-year-old daughter who doesn't appreciate watching Shrek in 5.1. But, the other night I had the rare opportunity to have the living to myself, and I watched Gravity on Blu-Ray. Thanks to your recommendations and guidance, it really was a terrific viewing experience that a working-class guy like me truly appreciates once in a while.

More than lending your expertise, though, I was completely blown away by the incredibly mature and professional manner with which you explained your likes/dislikes regarding Bose. On many other forums and reviews that I have read it's hard to know who's jumping on which bandwagon. By all appearances, you guys did your own research before reaching the conclusions which you share with great heart, respect and honesty before folks drop a lot of money at a Best Buy. Without a doubt, I could have put together a better system for the $1,000 I spent on the Bose Acoustimass 10 two years ago. But, when we buy a house next year, and maybe I'll have a room to dedicate to home theater & guitar, I'll bug you folks to no end for recommendations on every component to get the most from my- most likely- limited budget. For now, though, I'm a lucky SOB to have the Bose. I think it's a good entry level system- especially for an apartment.

My project for this weekend is to mount the surrounds on the walls, on either end of the sofa, slightly above ear level and tilted down towards the couch. Unless you guys tell me otherwise I think this is the hint I'm getting from you. Also, I would love to get your opinion on giving new life to my father's Dynaco speakers and AR receiver, The speakers are in decent shape, but the receiver needs work (the exterior gets hot after a couple minutes of use). My wife, though I love her, wants me to give the stereo and speakers to the local thrift store. But, I have a feeling you guys just lost your breath when you read that. 

Thanks...MUCH appreciated.

Evan98


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Evan, let me just say congratulations on getting to the next level! There is nothing quite like it, no matter what's in your A/V rack. And really, no need to apologize for your gear. You wouldn't believe what my first clapped out surround system had. ...car speakers, hijacked bookshelf speakers, no sub...At least yours match!!! Lol And your totally into it. That's what counts. I read with much sentimentality about your dad, and his gear. I lost mine when he was 59, and I know what it's like havin "dads" stuff. To that I say, maybe have someone go through the rcvr, and replace anything as needed, and have a little 2.0 stereo system. (In your new house if the apt doesn't have room). I don't know how old his amp is, but I've been playin with a '71 Mcintosh lately. It's fun. Have fun. 
Will (sorry about your other thread too)


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I hesitate to make additional comments since you are happy with the system, but I think some additional tweaking is in order.



Evan98 said:


> I ran the Yamaha YPAO again and left the settings it recommended after the set-up alone
> I can never leave anything alone
> 
> (although I did lower the Center channel level a bit as I thought it was over taking the left and right fronts a tad).
> ...


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Excellent additional comments. I'm a huge fiddler myself.
One of my thoughts about the "extra bass" being ON on the AVR... Personally, I do not like "exta bass" setting ON unless it is needed to balance the system. Maybe turning up the bass module BASS LEVEL slightly could balance out the bass so the "extra bass" would not be needed? 

Thoughts of bass module LFE LEVEL control.... Once the entire system is balanced properly to your liking, the LFE LEVEL could be lowered at times when a neighbor feels too much boom boom coming through the walls. If you didn't know, LFE stands for Low Frequency Effects.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Evan98 said:


> Also, I would love to get your opinion on giving new life to my father's Dynaco speakers and AR receiver, The speakers are in decent shape, but the receiver needs work (the exterior gets hot after a couple minutes of use). My wife, though I love her, wants me to give the stereo and speakers to the local thrift store. But, I have a feeling you guys just lost your breath when you read that.
> 
> Thanks...MUCH appreciated.
> 
> Evan98


This is hard to comment on without seeing the stuff. In general, the thing that mostly goes wrong with old speakers is the foam "surround", the really flexy part of the speaker that bridges from the cone to the frame. It's has to be the most flexible part, so they sometimes made it of a kind of foam material, which decomposes, then the cone is no longer suspended, will rub on the magnet, and the box isn't sealed either, though some Dynaco speakers were vented. The ones I have (yes I have a pair too!) are the smaller sealed ones. Take off the front and see what they look like. If the look good, you might gently test them for integrity. If they have cracks, are crumbled, or crumble when you touch them, the surrounds are shot and can be replaced, either by an expert or by you. There are several companies that sell replacement surrounds for just about any speaker. The job isn't too hard, but it requires patience, and you might as well buy two sets in case you flub one. Other than that, if the speakers are not blown, they are good to play. Dynaco speakers were impressive in their day. 

The receiver is another story. If it's getting hot in a few minutes, there's a problem, and it requires service. The most failure-prone parts are electrolytic capacitors, which either stop being capacitors a bit, or catastrophically fail by shorting internally. Neither is good, but they are cheap and readily available. Getting old electronics services is kind of difficult, hardly anyone works on this stuff anymore. The parts are not usually too hard to find, it's finding a guy to do it, and finding documentation, though these days it could all be on-line. Regardless, you might have to make the call to keep and rehab or dump the receiver based on cost and trouble of repair. Wifey might be right in that case. I don't personally feel old receivers have any real benefits in terms of performance, unless they were perhaps a very high-end unit to begin with. Today's entry-level stuff performs SO much better than even mid-grade stuff of 25+ years ago.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

gdstupak said:


> Excellent additional comments. I'm a huge fiddler myself.
> One of my thoughts about the "extra bass" being ON on the AVR... Personally, I do not like "exta bass" setting ON unless it is needed to balance the system. Maybe turning up the bass module BASS LEVEL slightly could balance out the bass so the "extra bass" would not be needed?
> 
> Thoughts of bass module LFE LEVEL control.... Once the entire system is balanced properly to your liking, the LFE LEVEL could be lowered at times when a neighbor feels too much boom boom coming through the walls. If you didn't know, LFE stands for Low Frequency Effects.


Hey Evan98, ignore my reply here, it is just opening a discussion with gdstupak about some AVR functionality and at this point should not affect what you are doing.

Re: extra bass,
It would be good for a knowledgable Yammy owner to weigh in about this.
The AVR manual (like most) is not crystal clear on how the LFE and the bass frequencies are handled and whether the crossover in the AVR affects the LFE and the bass.
When I began my reply to the OP my intention was to recommend changing the extra bass setting and the crossover frequency but after reading the AVR manual I opted out of recommending any change there.
There is something else that puzzles be about the Yammy too, the manual states the channel trims are +/-6dB but the channel levels can be +/-10dB. I am not familiar with there being a difference between channel level and trim. If you or someone else can explain what is going on here I would appreciate it.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

The 'EXTRA BASS' option, I was thinking was something similar to a 'LOUDNESS' option, but it could be completely different.

I used to use a Yamaha AVR and I don't remember it using both 'trim' and 'level'. And I can't see what the difference would be.

For the AVR's crossover, it should just cut the lower frequencies out from the main channels and add it to the LFE output channel. Probably the Bose bass module will then just put them back together again anyway. I was even thinking of suggesting to set the AVR LFE setting to OFF (then all of the LFE signals would be added to the main channels). Otherwise, I think the 40hz crossover would do well. 

I like your suggestion of trying to get all of the AVR trim levels near 0dB. The OP just needs to keep trying different settings.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

gdstupak said:


> The 'EXTRA BASS' option, I was thinking was something similar to a 'LOUDNESS' option, but it could be completely different.
> 
> I used to use a Yamaha AVR and I don't remember it using both 'trim' and 'level'. And I can't see what the difference would be.


RX-V375 manual, page 58, "Level" adjustment is +/-10dB, "adjust the volume of each speaker". 
Page 52, "Volume Trim" also known as "Input Trim" "Corrects volume differences between input sources".


gdstupak said:


> For the AVR's crossover, it should just cut the lower frequencies out from the main channels and add it to the LFE output channel. Probably the Bose bass module will then just put them back together again anyway. I was even thinking of suggesting to set the AVR LFE setting to OFF (then all of the LFE signals would be added to the main channels). Otherwise, I think the 40hz crossover would do well.


Setting LFE to "Off" (actually, it's setting for no subwoofer) would not be correct. This would turn of the LFE output, which the sub is expecting as a single input, and distribute LFE around all "Large" speakers. There's a potential for the wrong LFE level that way.

Using the Bose recommended setting of "Large" for LCRS is correct. That's what their sub is expecting. "Large" provides full-bandwidth to it's output and the crossover setting is meaningless. The crossover setting is only active when speakers are set to "Small", which would not be correct here. So, 40Hz is fine, but it doesn't make any difference because the crossover is bypassed. The only crossover in the system should be the one in the sub.


gdstupak said:


> I like your suggestion of trying to get all of the AVR trim levels near 0dB. The OP just needs to keep trying different settings.


There's no point to this. The existence of "trim" adjustments is because they are required in any system. If the goal were to set them all to "0", they wouldn't need to be there. Sources can be different in level, and trim evens that out. So while it's good to start at "0" for Trim (not Level Adjustment, pg 58, which shouldn't be touched), input trim can and should be adjusted as needed. 

As to "keep trying different settings", let's not punish the poor guy. Set things up the recommended way, and enjoy. If months down the road there's a need for some change, then go play. Otherwise, the changes are just "different" and being evaluated by someone who doesn't know "right", and will just end up frustrated and confused. As we all know, you can tweak forever, but there's a point of diminishing returns and enjoyment.


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## orion (Sep 18, 2009)

Congratulations on your setup. You got some very good advice on your setup. Another thing is it wouldn't be a bad idea to write down the different setting you try and see what you like most. Also remember that all of our ears are different and we all like different speakers and settings. So find what you like and enjoy your movies and music. When you get a house and are looking for a new system I would look at the classifieds and buy some used speakers. You could get a screaming deal if your patient


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

orion said:


> Also remember that all of our ears are different and we all like different speakers and settings.


The boys at Harmon would disagree with that statement.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Setting the volume level on the Acoustimas module so the AVR sets the subwoofer channel close to 0dB is an excellent idea.
If the AVR is setting it to -10dB it may actually want to set it to -20dB but is hitting the -10dB limit.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

gazoink,
Thank you for posting all of the proper technical info (and who are you?...do you already know all this stuff, or are you a speed Googler?)




gazoink said:


> As to "keep trying different settings", let's not punish the poor guy. Set things up the recommended way, and enjoy. If months down the road there's a need for some change, then go play.


 This is very good advice to follow, set it up according to instructions and listen to it for awhile. Earlier I was probably going off the rails.

Evan98,
I would let the auto set-up set the SPL levels of the speakers and leave it for awhile. Right now you feel that the center channel is over-utilized but it is probably set up properly and the center channel does normally contain more content than the others. If you set the center lower than the L/R, then when a car goes across the screen, it will be quieter at the center of the screen and louder on the left and right sides of the screen. Also, dialog from the center could easily be drowned out by loud effects coming from the L/R.

Before 1994 I was one of those guys that only listened to everything with the bass tone control maxed and 'extra bass' enabled. A magazine article suggested that that was probably inaccurate reproduction and to try listening for 3 weeks with every tone control set to neutral. I tried this experiment and for 3 weeks I fought myself every listening minute to keep myself from cranking the bass back up. But then suddenly the neutral settings sounded correct and turning the bass up sounded wrong and bloated.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

gdstupak said:


> gazoink,
> Thank you for posting all of the proper technical info (and who are you?...do you already know all this stuff, or are you a speed Googler?)


A bit of both. I'm a professional in the industry for decades, so I do already know the principles quite well. But nobody knows every device-specific quirk, so a bit of googling to get that. I also approach all of these issues under the assumption that the answers are in the user manual. And they were.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

gazoink said:


> A bit of both. I'm a professional in the industry for decades, so I do already know the principles quite well. But nobody knows every device-specific quirk, so a bit of googling to get that. I also approach all of these issues under the assumption that the answers are in the user manual. And they were.


My wife teases me for reading manuals all the time, but it's the first piece of advice I give to ppl I know. Owners manuals are invaluable.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> My wife teases me for reading manuals all the time, but it's the first piece of advice I give to ppl I know. Owners manuals are invaluable.


I've heard that in certain eastern cultures the entire manual is read and understood _before_ anything else comes out of the box. That would not be true on average in the USA though, where we do it the other way 'round.

But if you apply that understand to the way in which most manuals are written, you begin to understand why they are written that way. The quick start sheets are for the Americans.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

gazoink said:


> ... I do already know the principles quite well. But nobody knows every device-specific quirk, so a bit of googling to get that. I also approach all of these issues under the assumption that the answers are in the user manual. And they were.





willis7469 said:


> My wife teases me for reading manuals all the time, but it's the first piece of advice I give to ppl I know. Owners manuals are invaluable.


+1 to both


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

Gentlemen-

Again, let me say thanks for this incredible help/tutoring/advice you're sharing- which I know is a great joy for you since it keeps you engaged with bright folks in healthy debate that you don't mind being challenged on. It's rare to find such mature disagreement that's completely respectful on the Internet.

Also, you should know that my wife is really upset with all of you for encouraging my interest in "stupid stereo stuff." (Her words).

I am going to snap some pics of my setup, room and placement of speakers so that you have a visual. I am especially interested in learning more about the LFE control on the bass module and how to manipulate it properly. So, I'm studying your comments and suggestions on it. I found the Yamaha RX-V375 manual, which I think I have read more than 10 times cover to cover, to be a bit confusing for a beginner- like me. Great receiver, but I think it's fair to say I'm not getting the most out of it at the moment. Thanks for the pointer about setting the surrounds to Large, instead of leaving them on Small, as the YPAO is doing. 

Also, are all HDMI cables basically the same when you're spending under $100 per cable or is there more to it then I'm led to believe? Currently, I'm using RocketFish and AudioQuest for the Samsung Blu-Ray, DirectTV box, Samsung LCD and the Yamaha AVR.

Thanks again...


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I buy the $5 and less variety from Fry's and or Monoprice.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Evan98 said:


> Also, you should know that my wife is really upset with all of you for encouraging my interest in "stupid stereo stuff." (Her words).


Only one cure for this...get her involved. Build a playlist of her all-time favorite tunes, artists and albums, put the young 'un to bed, pour two glasses of wine, and play DJ for her. No need to crank it up much, just decent level to hear how great her favorite music sounds.

It's sometimes fun to grab a 5.1 surround mix of a favorite album and play it on the system. Not always possible, because 5.1 releases aren't common, but there are quite a number. It'll show off your system with favorite music heard in a whole new way. 

Remember to kick the bass up a tad if you play at low levels.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

My wife teases me about all of my OCD hobbies/interests/habits/quirks, the 'stereo stuff' is pretty far down on her favorite targets list.
I wore her down early on about my 'need' for large speakers to be nearby.
She hardly ever complains though and most of the time encourages me to do what I want unless I start talking about putting stuff in her Princess Room, then she panics just a little bit.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

chashint said:


> I buy the $5 and less variety from Fry's and or Monoprice.


Up until recently that's exactly what I've done. Then I started getting bit by cheap cable issues. One problem is reliability. I've had several brand-new Monoprice cables fail out of the package. They were the cheapos. I've also had one of their Redmere 30' cables fail in a wall after 10 months...had to pull in a new one. I've never had other brands "fail" or defective out of the package, and never ever had one fail while already in a wall. 

Another problem is the lack of flexibility. Stiff cables can torque an AVR's HDMI connector right of the circuit board. When that happens, you're hosed. Thinner or more flexible cables don't do that as much. The extra cost of a more flexible cable is much less than an HDMI connector repair (basically, they swap the entire HDMI board). 

Otherwise, as long as they're working, there's no performance difference. 

Can't post about HDMI with ragging on what a horrible design it is...sorry, I'm compelled.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

..."stupid stereo stuff". I can hear the same words coming from my own wife! Rofl! 
Hdmi cables are not necessarily the same, but even $100.00 cables don't "perform" any better than less expensive ones. ((10.00 or less) They work, or they don't. More money can sometimes get more robust jacketing, and connectors, etc, but there is also s lot of snake oil out there. As mentioned, monoprice represents a great bargain, as well as media bridge, and blue rigger, and blue jeans cable. Good advice to involve your wife. Mine couldn't care less...except for budget! 
Yeah, havin fun. Hope you are too.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

gazoink said:


> Up until recently that's exactly what I've done. Then I started getting bit by cheap cable issues. One problem is reliability. I've had several brand-new Monoprice cables fail out of the package. They were the cheapos. I've also had one of their Redmere 30' cables fail in a wall after 10 months...had to pull in a new one. I've never had other brands "fail" or defective out of the package, and never ever had one fail while already in a wall.
> Another problem is the lack of flexibility. Stiff cables can torque an AVR's HDMI connector right of the circuit board. When that happens, you're hosed. Thinner or more flexible cables don't do that as much. The extra cost of a more flexible cable is much less than an HDMI connector repair (basically, they swap the entire HDMI board).
> Otherwise, as long as they're working, there's no performance difference.
> Can't post about HDMI with ragging on what a horrible design it is...sorry, I'm compelled.


Have you found a brand that you like better than the rest?
I have had 3-4 HDMI cables DOA, a couple were Fry's no name and a couple have been low budget Monoprice.
Overall though the results have been excellent (I seem to supply the whole extended family with cables and adapters, even though I don't know why).
I really hate how easy the HDMI cable slides out of the connector, it's hard to imagine that engineers were involved with that decision.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

chashint said:


> Have you found a brand that you like better than the rest?


Not universally. It depends on the application and cable length. Even some of the better Monoprice stuff has worked fine. I've also used ICE cable (though it's a pain them specifying only metric lengths), and Bluejeans, some of the Mediabridge Flex is good too.


chashint said:


> I have had 3-4 HDMI cables DOA, a couple were Fry's no name and a couple have been low budget Monoprice.
> Overall though the results have been excellent (I seem to supply the whole extended family with cables and adapters, even though I don't know why).


Yes, I've had plenty of the low budget Monoprice stuff work too, but the success rate has dropped for me lately. And while I like the colors, I HATE the ferrite chunk. It's totally unnecessary.


chashint said:


> I really hate how easy the HDMI cable slides out of the connector, it's hard to imagine that engineers were involved with that decision.


Yes engineers were involved and still are. But the entire thing was ill-conceived from the beginning, and still is. They ran before they walked, and were bullied by content producers to deal with HDCP. The connector design is horrible, and the wire requirements ridiculous. The connector and cable system was done without regard for the custom install market at all. If we can accomplish the same link over a single Cat5 now, what's all that fuss about 19 24ga wires? That just makes it like a piece of hose with a non-locking, fragile connector. And it's still changing. We're up to 2.0 and counting. Review the versions sometime, you'll wonder why on earth V1.0 didn't include everything but 3d. Not like they had no clue. And while they seem hobbled by the constraints of backward compatibility, they don't really achieve it either. 

I have hopes for HDBaseT, but it's years from the main consumer market. Same for Thunderbolt, even though it's about a generation ahead of HDMI, not enough support. But I wouldn't be sad to se HDMI go away.

That'll be enough ragging for today.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Evan, I thought I read somewhere you were wondering about surround speaker height, but I couldn't find it so, anyway. Surround speakers are usually more forgiving in their placement, but the most recommended I've seen, and used is for 5./2 put them up around 6' from the floor or 3-4' above the seated ear height, and slightly behind. Maybe a foot or so. The width of your room will be important here. For example a room of 10' width (narrow) would make it hard for speakers at 6' off the floor to image without drawing your attention up to them. In this case maybe try 5' to start. This image shows a good place to start, but some rooms won't allow so be flexible. I think your speakers would be considered bipole(two drivers firing in phase in two directions,), so they will create a diffused sound field. (Or point together for a monopole(direct radiator) and more precise imaging). Monopoles are fussier like fronts, and can call attention to themselves if not placed carefully, and also the kind I prefer,but if your doin mostly movies I'd start with a bipole config. and experiment. Once I got mine where I liked them, I made a jig for my laser pointer to sit on my speakers to make sure I was consistent. (Yes crazy). I don't like to "eyeball" certain things. Then I know for sure if there is an anomaly, it's not from inconsistent placement. 
Cables...I use media bridge, and blue rigger. I only have 4hdmi sources, (6cables). Amazon, around 6bucks. The only failure I've had is from a more well known manufacturer. I'm also the cable supplier to everyone I know. ???
Enjoy


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> Evan, I thought I read somewhere you were wondering about surround speaker height, but I couldn't find it so, anyway. Surround speakers are usually more forgiving in their placement, but the most recommended I've seen, and used is for 5./2 put them up around 6' from the floor or 3-4' above the seated ear height, and slightly behind. Maybe a foot or so. The width of your room will be important here. For example a room of 10' width (narrow) would make it hard for speakers at 6' off the floor to image without drawing your attention up to them. In this case maybe try 5' to start. This image shows a good place to start, but some rooms won't allow so be flexible. I think your speakers would be considered bipole(two drivers firing in phase in two directions,), so they will create a diffused sound field. (Or point together for a monopole(direct radiator) and more precise imaging). Monopoles are fussier like fronts, and can call attention to themselves if not placed carefully, and also the kind I prefer,but if your doin mostly movies I'd start with a bipole config. and experiment. Once I got mine where I liked them, I made a jig for my laser pointer to sit on my speakers to make sure I was consistent. (Yes crazy). I don't like to "eyeball" certain things. Then I know for sure if there is an anomaly, it's not from inconsistent placement.


These are all good suggestions. I would add a couple of things for perspective. 

The Film use of surround is to provide an even, diffuse field for envelopment effects. In large theaters with lots of surround speakers, that's easy. In small HTs with only two surround speakers, it's difficult to do because listeners will "localize" the two speakers, meaning you'll absolutely know where they are, and the one closest to the listener will dominate. This is pretty far from the theatrical intention. If you check the Dolby or THX speaker position guides, they put the surrounds pretty much as willis7469 states, and that does create the above problem. A bipole helps reduce localization by increasing the dispersion angle, which creates more reflections, but the speaker is still easily localized because the direct field is dominant. A true bipole is a compromise and helps those who play surround music mixed for direct radiating, no-diffuse field surrounds. The best solution was proposed by the first iteration of Home THX, now mostly THX Ultra2, which is to use a dipole speaker, two or more drivers out of phase, with the resulting null pointed at the listener. This configuration is very difficult to localize because there's no direct sound, only reflected. A refinement on the dipole is the tripole, which reduces the null by adding a direct driver in it. That's also a compromise, mostly for the music listener, or the 7.1 system assuming directly radiating rears. 

The Bose speakers can be neither dipolar nor bipolar, so you're stuck with highly direct, easily localized surrounds unless you get creative, and bounce them off other surfaces and limit the direct sound. I've often wanted to disassemble one of those dual speakers and rewire them for dipole, just to see what happens.

As much as I appreciate the laser-guided positioning, in a small system it's a good starting point, but really just an exercise except for a single seat, and even then, a small movement of the listener to the left or right will make all of that mute. If I were to obsess, I'd work on bouncing the surrounds off something that diffuses their sound and limits their direct. That will spread the surround field for all listeners. That's why I suggested trying them behind the couch corners pointed at the ceiling. The couch will block the direct field to the listener, and mostly all that comes in is reflected from something.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

gazoink said:


> These are all good suggestions. I would add a couple of things for perspective. The Film use of surround is to provide an even, diffuse field for envelopment effects. In large theaters with lots of surround speakers, that's easy. In small HTs with only two surround speakers, it's difficult to do because listeners will "localize" the two speakers, meaning you'll absolutely know where they are, and the one closest to the listener will dominate. This is pretty far from the theatrical intention. If you check the Dolby or THX speaker position guides, they put the surrounds pretty much as willis7469 states, and that does create the above problem. A bipole helps reduce localization by increasing the dispersion angle, which creates more reflections, but the speaker is still easily localized because the direct field is dominant. A true bipole is a compromise and helps those who play surround music mixed for direct radiating, no-diffuse field surrounds. The best solution was proposed by the first iteration of Home THX, now mostly THX Ultra2, which is to use a dipole speaker, two or more drivers out of phase, with the resulting null pointed at the listener. This configuration is very difficult to localize because there's no direct sound, only reflected. A refinement on the dipole is the tripole, which reduces the null by adding a direct driver in it. That's also a compromise, mostly for the music listener, or the 7.1 system assuming directly radiating rears. The Bose speakers can be neither dipolar nor bipolar, so you're stuck with highly direct, easily localized surrounds unless you get creative, and bounce them off other surfaces and limit the direct sound. I've often wanted to disassemble one of those dual speakers and rewire them for dipole, just to see what happens. As much as I appreciate the laser-guided positioning, in a small system it's a good starting point, but really just an exercise except for a single seat, and even then, a small movement of the listener to the left or right will make all of that mute. If I were to obsess, I'd work on bouncing the surrounds off something that diffuses their sound and limits their direct. That will spread the surround field for all listeners. That's why I suggested trying them behind the couch corners pointed at the ceiling. The couch will block the direct field to the listener, and mostly all that comes in is reflected from something.


Ill just add a couple things for clarity. Agreeing with gazoink on his great explanation of different speaker types, I should have said "quasi" bipole in your case, since they're not dedicated, but I think by swiveling the cubes away from each other you'll at least be able to try both ways. Btw, I think rewiring for dipole would be very interesting. As far as laser guidance surround system,( think I just came up with something!), just to be clear, the laser points do not meet at my LP, but rather I placed a board on a chair 4' behind, and the points landed 1' apart. This is where I found balance between one great seat and 4 really good ones. My surround tweeters are 6.5' off the floor, and almost 2' behind, and the brackets are adjustable for hight/angle. According to my laser(Dr evil voice), the tweeters are firing at 3' below the opposing speaker, and about 6" in front. Room is 16' wide in that space. Rear surrounds are at the same height, no adjustment. The point basically is for my own reference, and how different adjustments effect sound field. Not necessarily to follow a hard fast placement rule.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Fwiw, I'm trying to balance music/movies, and merging slightly different setup principles is a challenge. But one I continue to enjoy. Someday (like many of us) I'd like to have space dedicated to both.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

I'd like to have the space to store the empty boxes.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

gazoink said:


> I'd like to have the space to store the empty boxes.


I think ill start there! Then maybe the new space will fill itself with gear!


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Just stand by. According to Parkinson's Law, stuff will fill the available space. It might not be the stuff you want though.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

gazoink said:


> Just stand by. According to Parkinson's Law, stuff will fill the available space. It might not be the stuff you want though.


Lol! Indeed.


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

Ran the YPAO again to make sure I was getting an accurate reading now that I moved the bass module to the other side of the entertainment unit, and I set the surrounds to Large. Overall, not bad. The distance configuration is close to faithful of the actual measurements I took with tape measure to listening position, although YPAO added a few more feet of distance to bass module. I don't know how to describe it, so I'll use "rookie" language that I'll hope you'll forgive me for. The reason I had been reducing the levels on the center- at least 3db lower than the fronts- was to get more depth instead of a lot presence, which is what I felt like I was getting from a generous amount of Treble. Could it be that I have now come face to face with the mid-range problem you folks describe with Bose? Would adjusting the EQ on the center- only- fix this? Right now, I am leaving the center as is according to the latest YPAO setup.

Below are pics I took of the Yamaha setup screens after I ran YPAO yesterday. All settings indicated are from YPAO except that I switched the surrounds to Large and turned extra bass off before running the test. Also giving you pics of the room to see layout. YES! I know I need to hide the wires!!! The floors are lamanent, we have an area rug and the wall are nothing out if the ordinary. No curtains, just blinds. It's an apartment. So, assume I can't do anything to room construction- as I want to get my deposit back! I have my components sitting on rubber spacers, which I bought at Walmart. I read, long ago, that if possible it's best not to stack components due to heat. Thoughts? Also, the surrounds are mounted on stands which are, roughly, 4' off ground at ear level. I'm thinking about mounting them on wall at six feet on either side of couch. In addition, is there any advantage to manipulating the swivel on the cubes- as I am- or should they be left facing straight ahead?


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Evan98 said:


> Ran the YPAO again to make sure I was getting an accurate reading now that I moved the bass module to the other side of the entertainment unit, and I set the surrounds to Large. Overall, not bad. The distance configuration is close to faithful of the actual measurements I took with tape measure to listening position, although YPAO added a few more feet of distance to bass module.


Don't worry about the sub distance. No auto cal system is capable of getting sub distance accurately, and it's not important anyway. Just verify you have all speakers wired correctly. That W-1 Out of Phase error is not 100% reliable, but it's worth verifying. 


Evan98 said:


> I don't know how to describe it, so I'll use "rookie" language that I'll hope you'll forgive me for. The reason I had been reducing the levels on the center- at least 3db lower than the fronts- was to get more depth instead of a lot presence, which is what I felt like I was getting from a generous amount of Treble. Could it be that I have now come face to face with the mid-range problem you folks describe with Bose? Would adjusting the EQ on the center- only- fix this? Right now, I am leaving the center as is according to the latest YPAO setup.


Could be. Keep in mind that for film and video, more than 70% of the total energy of the system comes from the center speaker. Before you adjust, listen to lots of different material from different sources.


Evan98 said:


> Below are pics I took of the Yamaha setup screens after I ran YPAO yesterday. All settings indicated are from YPAO except that I switched the surrounds to Large and turned extra bass off before running the test. Also giving you pics of the room to see layout. YES! I know I need to hide the wires!!! The floors are lamanent, we have an area rug and the wall are nothing out if the ordinary. No curtains, just blinds. It's an apartment. So, assume I can't do anything to room construction- as I want to get my deposit back! I have my components sitting on rubber spacers, which I bought at Walmart. I read, long ago, that if possible it's best not to stack components due to heat. Thoughts? Also, the surrounds are mounted on stands which are, roughly, 4' off ground at ear level. I'm thinking about mounting them on wall at six feet on either side of couch. In addition, is there any advantage to manipulating the swivel on the cubes- as I am- or should they be left facing straight ahead?


Spread the cubes as far apart as possible for the surrounds, perhaps just a bit for the L/R. 

Nice job!


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

chashint said:


> Setting the volume level on the Acoustimas module so the AVR sets the subwoofer channel close to 0dB is an excellent idea.
> If the AVR is setting it to -10dB it may actually want to set it to -20dB but is hitting the -10dB limit.


+1
I would turn the Bose bass modules LFE down almost 1/4 lower and run set-up again. Don't spend extra effort trying to get the AVR's subwoofer level to read exactly 0dB, but you don't want the reading to be maxed out at -10dB or +10dB.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Evan98 said:


> Could it be that I have now come face to face with the mid-range problem you folks describe with Bose? Would adjusting the EQ on the center- only- fix this?


The set-up hopefully eq'd it pretty well.

I am not familiar with YPAO. Evan98 has a screen shot of some EQ settings that do not look like they have been moved. If YPAO did adjust the EQ would it have shown the adjustment on that screen page? My Onkyo does not show the EQ adjustments made by Audyssey.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

gdstupak said:


> +1 I would turn the Bose bass modules LFE down almost 1/4 lower and run set-up again. Don't spend extra effort trying to get the AVR's subwoofer level to read exactly 0dB, but you don't want the reading to be maxed out at -10dB or +10dB.


These are good points. I agree. The AVR is seeing too much output when measuring LFE so it's trimming all the way down. It might want to go to -20 to even the output as said before. 0 is not absolutely necessary but being close is good so you have adjustability. Also,too far on the plus side can introduce distortion with too much gain. Set it at 1/4 gain and run again. 
I would agree also in getting the surrounds higher, but be careful. You want to have a smooth transition from front to back, and if you get too high, this may be distracting. I would say yes to swivel them open too. This should help a little to diffuse the sound. I've also been told/read that if the auto setup fudges distances, you should re enter manually. Especially subs. The reason is so the AVR can set the proper delay due to distance. I understand these readings can be skewed by reflections and modes. 
I have a question too. Does the AVR set speakers to large (in the acoustimass system) because it sees the cubes and module as one speaker? 
Room looks nice too!


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I do not have Yamaha so no hands on here either.
That EQ screenshot has PEQ at the top ... but the fact YAPO did not adjust anything on that screen is very interesting.
Maybe there is Advanced YAPO (my Pioneer has MCACC and Advanced MCACC menus)

ALERT:
As I was tapping this out on the phone...I think he has EQ disabled so the Acoustimass module handles the bass management. 

The YAPO may be using subwoofer distance to adjust phase (just a guess).

The way I interpreted the manual "extra bass" ON is the correct setting. But I whiffed when I thought the source input trim was the output channel levels so I may have missed on the extra bass too.

Turning the Acoustimass LFE down 1/4 turn sounds reasonable and I agree that once the AVR comes off -10dB on the subwoofer channel call it good.

When it comes to center channel level if it is really driving you crazy go ahead and knock it down a little.
If you are just noticing it a little I think giving it a few days is the right approach.
Initially try to listen to the system like you are studying it every now and then and think about what you are hearing, then when you make an adjustment try to address a single thing and give it a day or two so you can evaluate that change.

As far as the reference to the Bose sound hole that's kinda overblown by the Bose hating crowd. 
If you take the frequency response of the module and the satellite speakers separately they do roll off before crossing over, but (and its a big but) when used together the module and the speakers sound adds together in the roll off crossover and there is only about a 3dB variance in the combined frequency response.
This is hardly noticeable in a real world room since there are much larger reflections and nulls that affect the sound.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

+1 on the sub distance/phase comp. this sounds reasonable to me too. 
Another thing to mention is, after making adjustments, spend some quality time really listening. Pay close attention to all the things your trying to account for. Eg: if you swivel your surrounds, or move them up, watch a half dozen things that you know very well and see if what you've done makes it better (or worse lol). All the tweaking in the world is useless if not for listening. 
Question: Havin fun yet?


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

Yes, havin fun Willis...

Uh, dramatic difference in levels/sound after following everyone's advice. I ran YPAO a few minutes ago with LFE knob on module set to 1/4, and I turned the Yamaha EQ on. The pics, below, show the new numbers from YPAO setup. I haven't changed a thing. I can't figure out why the AVR set the EQ to PEQ instead of leaving it on with adjustments for each speaker. Unless I'm crazy, the rears really came to life. Bass is much more pronounced- so much so that I might have to make adjustments in consideration of the tenants below. Suggestions? Also, including screen shot of the DSP Parameter settings screen. I have never adjusted this, and I don't have a clear understanding of it's purpose after reading the manual. Guidance?

Again, thanks guys. This kind of fun is worth my marriage...


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Evan98 said:


> Yes, havin fun Willis... Uh, dramatic difference in levels/sound after following everyone's advice. I ran YPAO a few minutes ago with LFE knob on module set to 1/4, and I turned the Yamaha EQ on. The pics, below, show the new numbers from YPAO setup. I haven't changed a thing. I can't figure out why the AVR set the EQ to PEQ instead of leaving it on with adjustments for each speaker. Unless I'm crazy, the rears really came to life. Bass is much more pronounced- so much so that I might have to make adjustments in consideration of the tenants below. Suggestions? Also, including screen shot of the DSP Parameter settings screen. I have never adjusted this, and I don't have a clear understanding of it's purpose after reading the manual. Guidance? Again, thanks guys. This kind of fun is worth my marriage...


Well to start, glad ur havin fun! The dsp settings IME refer to pro logic II.(in this case maybe Yamaha DSPs too) Center width changes how much the center channels info gets moved out to the mains. This can be helpful if the distance between your mains and center is large. Dimension set the sound stage farther behind or in front, centering you closer to, or farther from the stage. Panorama takes sound from the mains, and puts some in the rears for a more wrap around effect. Surrounds and bass coming to life is probably Yamaha eq. This is probably like dynamicEQ from audyssey. The idea is to reproduce the levels as they were in the mixing studio. (Short version ). Cookin supper...sorry!


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

The Bose speaker system presents some unique issues.
The output for each speaker goes through the Acoustimas module which effectively makes it part of all 7 speakers with the module playing the lower frequencies and the speakers playing the higher frequencies.
The AVR subwoofer output which in your application should only be for the .1 LFE track on DVD/BluRay also goes to the module which plays all of that content.
When the AVR/YAPO sets the channel level it outputs a calibrated signal level and the microphone measures what it 'hears' and the AVR/YAPO adjusts the speaker channel level so the microphone hears 75dB of Sound pressure.
The issue is the Bose module has amplification built into it and it is user adjustable.
The LFE volume control on the module is now set so the AVR/YAPO can correctly set the "subwoofer" channel.
We still need to figure out the best setting for the Acoustim module's bass volume control.
If the system were here I would set all channel levels to 0dB, disconnect the speakers from the module, and set the AVR to output the test tone/noise to any speaker and use a SPL meter to set the bass volume control on the Acoustimas module to 75dB at the listening position, then I would reconnect the speakers and run YAPO again.

One way to set the bass volume control correctly would be to disconnect the speakers from the module and run YAPO, adjust the modules bass volume control to get the speaker channels very close to 0dB, then reconnect the speakers and run YAPO.
While this is not perfect I think it stands a chance to match the output of the module close to the output of the speakers.

This might be way to much trouble when adjusting the bass volume by ear might be plenty good.
But this is the kind of stuff I OCD about.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I may be feeling dumb, but why would he disconnect all his speakers and run ypao? Why not just run the LFE tone to verify 75db? Shouldn't ypao have set that anyways?
I think the reason the sub sounds hot is part of yamahas DRC, that's supposed to be like dynamicEQ, for less than reference volume listening. I'm gonna download his manual and read about that. Like I said, I may be feelin 
dum-B!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> I may be feeling dumb, but why would he disconnect all his speakers and run ypao? Why not just run the LFE tone to verify 75db? Shouldn't ypao have set that anyways? I think the reason the sub sounds hot is part of yamahas DRC, that's supposed to be like dynamicEQ, for less than reference volume listening. I'm gonna download his manual and read about that. Like I said, I may be feelin dum-B!


Btw, what sound mode/s are you using, and for which sources?


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> I may be feeling dumb, but why would he disconnect all his speakers and run ypao? Why not just run the LFE tone to verify 75db? Shouldn't ypao have set that anyways?
> I think the reason the sub sounds hot is part of yamahas DRC, that's supposed to be like dynamicEQ, for less than reference volume listening. I'm gonna download his manual and read about that. Like I said, I may be feelin
> dum-B!


This is actually somewhat complex.
The Acoustimas module has separate volume controls for the LFE and the bass.
The LFE comes from the AVR subwoofer output, while the bass comes from the AVR speaker outputs.
All the speakers are set to large so there is no filtering in the AVR.
When the YAPO sets any speaker channel including the subwoofer channel it plays a test tone this goes through the module and the lower frequencies are amplified.
This results in the microphone measuring the module and and except for the subwoofer channel it also measures the appropriate speaker.
I see a need to level match the bass portion of the Acoustimas module to the small speakers.
Maybe a better approach would be to turn the bass volume to minimum, run YAPO and record the speaker levels it sets, then increase the bass volume control to 1/4 value and run YAPO again, repeat this increasing the bass volume a small amount at a time until YAPO sets the speaker channel level 1dB lower, this would indicate the Acoustimas module was 1dB hotter than the speakers. Which is most likely a lot closer than it is now.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ok. I follow you now with the bass/LFE differential. I forget the module does LFE + mid bass. I think in about ready to send him a regular sub! At least I know how to do that! :rofl:
But in fairness, I am learning something. I haven't put my hands on a Bose anything in 15 years. (I have listened to some though). And so the crash course is good.


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

For better or worse, I have been leaving the AVR set to Pro Logic II for movies, music and DirecTV. Part of this is laziness. But, as much as I would l would love to sit and simply listen to Dark Side of the Moon or Steely Dan in 5.1, my two-year-old would never allow it, and even if I could I know you guys might say it's better to listen to such music in stereo. When my wife or I do listen to music through the system it's usually through Pandora via the Samsung Blu-Ray, which I have feeding into the AVR by way of HDMI. I am going to dig into the Yamaha manual tomorrow to see if I can program memory for different sound modes for TV, Blu-Ray, etc... Read, with interest, your suggestions on running YPAO with speakers disconnected from module. I think you guys are hinting that I need to buy an SLM. That should go over well with my wife.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Think of it like this, the small speaker is a tweeter and the Acoustimas module is the woofer which makes up a single two way speaker.
Most speakers do not have a volume control on the woofer it is level matched to the tweeter by design, but the Bose speaker has amplification built ion its woofer and it needs to be level matched to the tweeter by the user.

It would have been simpler if Bose had designed it so the AVR did the bass management with the instructions telling the user to set all speakers small and to use the highest crossover frequency in the AVR, then there would only need to be one volume control on the module.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Evan98, you are doing great.
I may be going to far with it right now, but it is just an attempt to get the best out of the system.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

There is no right or wrong way to listen to your system.

I listen to music in stereo and all channel stereo depending on my mood and if it is only me or my wife is listening too.
She greatly prefers all channel stereo and sometimes so do I.

Hopefully when you get this dialed in your wife will warm up to it.
If I read your comments correctly you are more pleased with it than when we started, if that is correct then it's worth it to keep going until you get worn out about doing stuff or you get crazy happy and declare victory.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Bose sells through every outlet and mostly the non-enthusiast is the consumer.
On paper it looks very easy, connect the speakers like it shows in the picture, turn it on, to adjust the amount of bass increase/decrease the bass volume control and to adjust LFE in moves raise/lower the LFE volume control.
The reality is AVRs are complex machines, and there are lots of moving parts to this particular speaker puzzle.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

My old Bose A/M 5 is very basic and easy because there is no outside amplification, no level controls. My bass module is not considered a mid/bass module and a subwoofer, it's just a mid/bass module.

For Evan98's newer system, it would be better to buy a separate better subwoofer instead of using the Bose module as a subwoofer, but there would still be the problem of not knowing if the Bose bass level adjustment is too hot or too cold.

I understand what chashint is eluding to about not knowing how the bass module is being adjusted. We were able to see that the AVR's sub level was maxed, so it was easy to know that the Bose LFE knob was too hot. But without being able to see the AVR's EQ, we can't see how it is dealing with the bass frequencies. For all we know, the AVR's EQ in the bass region could be maxed trying to deal with hot (or cold) bass frequencies. 
If REW were available I would use it to see how the freq. response looks and changes as I changed the Bose Bass Level control. But personally I don't have REW yet, so I would use my old trusty analog meter and CD freq. test tones.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Evan98 said:


> For better or worse, I have been leaving the AVR set to Pro Logic II for movies, music and DirecTV. Part of this is laziness. But, as much as I would l would love to sit and simply listen to Dark Side of the Moon or Steely Dan in 5.1, my two-year-old would never allow it, and even if I could I know you guys might say it's better to listen to such music in stereo. When my wife or I do listen to music through the system it's usually through Pandora via the Samsung Blu-Ray, which I have feeding into the AVR by way of HDMI. I am going to dig into the Yamaha manual tomorrow to see if I can program memory for different sound modes for TV, Blu-Ray, etc... Read, with interest, your suggestions on running YPAO with speakers disconnected from module. I think you guys are hinting that I need to buy an SLM. That should go over well with my wife.


Well, like chashint said there's no wrong way to listen. However if your watching blu ray, you are most definitely missing out by using pLII. I would set your input/output to auto, or program like you said. Next time, select "multichannel". Then you'll get the soundtrack as intended, with 5.1discreet channels. For music, I personally use pLII, most of the time but sometimes use pure audio and stereo. I also think a traditional sub would be easier, and yield better results, but considering your situation(wife,kid,apartment), this might not be the time. Lol. And I know your wife already loves us.  at least were not encouraging you to spend money. (I think)
AM5 is surely a different beast, and completely simple, in a good way. My neighbor (bless his soul) and I were talking about 15 years ago he says "I love bass". I found out he had an am5. I ran home and got my jbl sub (best I had at the time) and hooked it up. He almost fell over. Within a week we had a new system in his house. Not a rip, just a funny story about my late neighbor, and the last time I was on the back end of a Bose system. After that time, I only was a listener only, not a setter upper. ( to Bose that is) it's all good
Will


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

99% of the time my AVR is set to auto surround and it switches to match the input it is receiving.
The only DSP mode that is ever used is the all channel stereo mode.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

chashint said:


> 99% of the time my AVR is set to auto surround and it switches to match the input it is receiving. The only DSP mode that is ever used is the all channel stereo mode.


Mine are set for auto too. But I still double check, especially when something sounds "off". I am also probably the worlds largest soundtrack nazi. Ie: I always hit the setup menu to make sure I'm getting multichannel. As opposed to two channel PCM etc...


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

I just read all of your comments to my wife. While she loves the idea of having me put together a mix of her favorite tracks to listen to- and possibly appreciate- the system, she says to tell y'all that all the Sting, Michael Buble and Maroon 5 in the world won't convince her the sound isn't any better than her trusty iHome clock radio (her words). So, you guys still have a ways to go. 

If I were to buy a stand alone sub, how would the Bose cubes perform straight connect to the AVR? Is there any argument that they were specifically designed to work in tandem or be slaved to the Bose module? And, even if I could, by some miracle, sneak a new sub into the room I can't help but feel sick at the thought that the Bose module would be sent to the back of a coat closet or sold for pennies on eBay. Someone really has to make me a believer in this one. 

I was thinking today that I never investigated the settings on my Samsung Blu-Ray. I never tampered with them, so I assume they're set to factory. I'm including screen shots of the current settings. I'm going to dig through the manual tomorrow to see what's what. It's a BD F5700/ZA.

I looked through the Yamaha RX-V375 settings and could not find an option for "Automatic" for sound. Do guys mean, "straight?" 

Also, are you quietly nudging me to buy an SPL and "man-up" already? I am re-reading all of your suggestions on running the YPAO under different scenarios.

Odd, I found myself reading some articles on OCD today...


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Evan98 said:


> I just read all of your comments to my wife. While she loves the idea of having me put together a mix of her favorite tracks to listen to- and possibly appreciate- the system, she says to tell y'all that all the Sting, Michael Buble and Maroon 5 in the world won't convince her the sound isn't any better than her trusty iHome clock radio (her words). So, you guys still have a ways to go. If I were to buy a stand alone sub, how would the Bose cubes perform straight connect to the AVR? Is there any argument that they were specifically designed to work in tandem or be slaved to the Bose module? And, even if I could, by some miracle, sneak a new sub into the room I can't help but feel sick at the thought that the Bose module would be sent to the back of a coat closet or sold for pennies on eBay. Someone really has to make me a believer in this one.  I was thinking today that I never investigated the settings on my Samsung Blu-Ray. I never tampered with them, so I assume they're set to factory. I'm including screen shots of the current settings. I'm going to dig through the manual tomorrow to see what's what. It's a BD F5700/ZA. I looked through the Yamaha RX-V375 settings and could not find an option for "Automatic" for sound. Do guys mean, "straight?" Also, are you quietly nudging me to buy an SPL and "man-up" already? I am re-reading all of your suggestions on running the YPAO under different scenarios. Odd, I found myself reading some articles on OCD today...


Hey Evan. Hey Evans wife! I was really laughing about the ihome radio, so I'll keep goin!!! 
I feel like a stand alone sub would be an upgrade, but would be very difficult to blend with the rest of your speakers. I'm not sure but I think your Yamaha will only crossover as high as 120hz. I'm not sure though. I would expect that to make it "localizable", but if the Bose unit isn't, you might get away with it. If i were gonna do it, depending on my budget, I'd try to get some mains that are bigger than what you have. Then add the others later. Honestly, as much as I'd love to see you upgrade, I think right now, I'd keep what you have, and keep tweaking, and evaluating. Then in the future, save up and upgrade the whole pkg. 
looks to me like the settings in the BD player are good. And yes, an spl meter is invaluable. No matter how good you think your ears are lol. I can't remember what Yamaha calls auto detect, I'll try to find it. 

OCD? That's a prerequisite to be in this hobby!!!


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Evan98 said:


> If I were to buy a stand alone sub, how would the Bose cubes perform straight connect to the AVR? Is there any argument that they were specifically designed to work in tandem or be slaved to the Bose module? And, even if I could, by some miracle, sneak a new sub into the room I can't help but feel sick at the thought that the Bose module would be sent to the back of a coat closet or sold for pennies on eBay. Someone really has to make me a believer in this one.


The problem is the Bose speakers and sub are designed to work together, and are a bit non-standard alone. The speakers are so tiny they don't go low enough to "splice" well with common subs, even if the crossover on your AVR could be set high enough. I really think the Bose system should be operated as a system. If you want to upgrade, it has resale value only as a system.


Evan98 said:


> I was thinking today that I never investigated the settings on my Samsung Blu-Ray. I never tampered with them, so I assume they're set to factory. I'm including screen shots of the current settings. I'm going to dig through the manual tomorrow to see what's what. It's a BD F5700/ZA.


On the BD player, for Digital Output choose Bitstream Unprocessed, PCM Downsampling Off, Dynamic Range Control: Auto, Downmix mode: Surround Compatible. With these settings your AVR will automatically choose the correct surround decoder for whatever the source material is. 


Evan98 said:


> Also, are you quietly nudging me to buy an SPL and "man-up" already?


 Nah, don't complicate things. Time to enjoy what you have for a while.


Evan98 said:


> I am re-reading all of your suggestions on running the YPAO under different scenarios.
> 
> Odd, I found myself reading some articles on OCD today...


The OCD aspect of the hobby takes away the simple joy of it.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Even if using a separate subwoofer, you always need to use the Bose bass module to replicate the midbass/bass signals correctly (never connect the sats directly to the AVR, I thought we already went through this?). The Bose sats and bass module is used together to operate similarly to a set of full range main speakers.
If using a separate subwoofer:
...Connect the AVR's main L/R and Center and Surround outputs to the Bose module. Do not connect the AVR's LFE output to the Bose module.
...Do connect the AVR's LFE output to the separate subwoofer.

Set-up and calibration is no more complicated than any other standard speaker set, and no more complicated than using the Bose module with the LFE output. It would be very similar to my older Bose system which has no LFE input.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

gazoink said:


> On the BD player,
> ...*Digital Output choose* _Bitstream Unprocessed_,
> ...*PCM Downsampling* _Off_,
> ...*Dynamic Range Control*: _Auto_,
> ...


+1. Didn't want this very important info to get overlooked.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Evan, once you had the LFE volume control set correctly on the Acoustimas module instead of engineering a solution to balance the bass module and the speakers in hindsight I should have simply recommended turning the bass volume control to the same position you put the LFE volume control and give it a listen, it might take a couple of tries but once you think it's about right run YAPO one more time and call it good.

Gazoink is right, the OCD aspect of making it perfect does take the joy out of it.
The fact is nothing is ever going to be perfect, get it as good as you can and move on.

I cannot see any circumstance where I would recommend adding a subwoofer to the Bose speaker system.
It would be better to return the Bose (if that's still possible) and go with a conventional set of speakers and a subwoofer instead of adding a component to a designed speaker system.

While $1k (going rate on Amazon for Acoustimas 10) is not chump change, when you start buying conventional speakers (7 of them) and a subwoofer that $1k goes real fast.
I am less certain than many others that you would end up with a better sounding system at that price point.
If you could spend $1500, well then you could get something I would think was quite a bit better, but it would come with a significant footprint penalty and it costs 50% more.

I don't know if your wife really can't tell a difference between the clock radio and the speakers or if she is just annoyed with you right now and will not concede the speakers and AVR are better. I have known a couple people that truly thought the only difference between the portable radio and any HiFi system was just how loud it could play. I hope this is not the case with your wife.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

chashint said:


> I cannot see any circumstance where I would recommend adding a subwoofer to the Bose speaker system.
> It would be better to return the Bose (if that's still possible) and go with a conventional set of speakers and a subwoofer instead of adding a component to a designed speaker system.


Adding a conventional sub to the Bose system wouldn't be my first choice either, but when it comes to well distributed low bass, multiple subs always work better. I never spec a system with less that two subs because it's just too hard to predict how bass will propagate in a room. Fortunately for Bose owners, the real bass room mode issues happen well below 100Hz, so the mid-bass augmentation the Acoustimass unit does for the mains remains unaffected. A second sub with its crossover set somewhere like 80-100Hz will be a benefit in just about every case.

It all has to be balanced agains pleasing the wife, though. Wives, if treated well, outlast subs.


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

Yeah, I'm going to keep the Bose AM 10 connected as a set. It was made to work together and, I agree, resale is better as a whole. In addition, it's fine for my apartment, and I'd rather spend more time reading the forum and putting something special together next year on a bigger budget and finally in a home!

I turned the bass knob on the module to match the LFE knob's position. They're both about a quarter cranked. Are you advising to run YPAO now? I'm having a tough time determining what is "good" as far as bass goes. When I ran YPAO the other day, before adjusting the bass knob on the module, the crossover frequency was set to 60hz and extra bass is off. I haven't changed those settings.

I've watched a few different Blu-rays and TV programs and cannot, for the life of me, figure out the differences between "Standard," "PL Logic II," and "Straight." Yes, there are subtle differences, but I can't look at the Yamaha manual again tonight!!! Still looking for a way to have the AVR automatically select the best sound output for each source. That said, it seems the AVR is selecting "Straight" when playing from the Samsung Blu-Ray. But, I can't tell if the AVR is looking at what the Disc is encoded with- sound wise- or the settings I have selected on the player. Ok, my head just exploded!!! 

Also, still trying to figure out why YPAO isn't adjusting the EQ settings when I run setup. It always leaves it on PEQ. The manual is no help on this one. Perhaps messing with the EQ for each speaker does more harm than good with this particular setup??

Btw, I was totally joking about my wife loving her iHome better than the Bose. She was completely offended by my attempt at humor, and she is looking over me as I type this. Love you dear...


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Evan98 said:


> Yeah, I'm going to keep the Bose AM 10 connected as a set. It was made to work together and, I agree, resale is better as a whole. In addition, it's fine for my apartment, and I'd rather spend more time reading the forum and putting something special together next year on a bigger budget and finally in a home! I turned the bass knob on the module to match the LFE knob's position. They're both about a quarter cranked. Are you advising to run YPAO now? I'm having a tough time determining what is "good" as far as bass goes. When I ran YPAO the other day, before adjusting the bass knob on the module, the crossover frequency was set to 60hz and extra bass is off. I haven't changed those settings. I've watched a few different Blu-rays and TV programs and cannot, for the life of me, figure out the differences between "Standard," "PL Logic II," and "Straight." Yes, there are subtle differences, but I can't look at the Yamaha manual again tonight!!! Still looking for a way to have the AVR automatically select the best sound output for each source. That said, it seems the AVR is selecting "Straight" when playing from the Samsung Blu-Ray. But, I can't tell if the AVR is looking at what the Disc is encoded with- sound wise- or the settings I have selected on the player. Ok, my head just exploded!!!  Also, still trying to figure out why YPAO isn't adjusting the EQ settings when I run setup. It always leaves it on PEQ. The manual is no help on this one. Perhaps messing with the EQ for each speaker does more harm than good with this particular setup?? Btw, I was totally joking about my wife loving her iHome better than the Bose. She was completely offended by my attempt at humor, and she is looking over me as I type this. Love you dear...


I can hear her laughing now!
I think keeping the system together is good, and save/research for the future. Smart! "Good", as far as bass goes, to me means clear articulate, and low. What I would say to look for is a good blend. Solid output, without overpowering the rest of the speakers. (Like when your buddy puts a pair of 15s in his trunk but doesn't upgrade any of his stock speakers). Yes run ypao one last time if you think the bass, and LFE levels are matched. "Straight" means if your blu ray player is sending Dolby digital, or dts, or 2ch stereo, it's reproducing that through the speakers, with ypao and EQ. I'm guessing you have output set to PCM? That means the soundtrack is being decoded in the player, and sent out as PCM. On my onkyo rcvr, when I do PCM out of my ps3,DD, dts (etc) soundtracks show on the display as multichannel. (This is how I use it). (Make sure in the setup menu the soundtrack/languages is 5.1dts hd master audio, not 2ch PCM) so I think "straight" is what you want it to say. If you choose bitstream, it means the rcvr decodes the soundtrack, and shows which one it's using on the rcvr. Dts-HD-MA, for example. On some older rcvrs, when set to bitstream in the BD player, the audio from such things as commentary tracks, and menu audio would not play back. I'm not sure if this is still true. 
PLII, is a quasi surround mode, best suited to music IMO, but is used a lot when the source is 2ch stereo. Basically it creates a "surround" field from the 2ch sound track. Some satellite programming uses this, but DD is probably 90% more common. 
I curious about the peq thing. I'm gonna dig a little. My eyelids are losing a war with gravity right now? Btw, I think I still hear your wife! J/K. 
Will


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Evan98 said:


> I turned the bass knob on the module to match the LFE knob's position. They're both about a quarter cranked. Are you advising to run YPAO now?


Yup.


Evan98 said:


> I'm having a tough time determining what is "good" as far as bass goes.


 It'll be a little tough to hear what "good" is with this setup, but give it a while. The description in the previous post is fine if you can get your head around it.


Evan98 said:


> I've watched a few different Blu-rays and TV programs and cannot, for the life of me, figure out the differences between "Standard," "PL Logic II," and "Straight." Yes, there are subtle differences, but I can't look at the Yamaha manual again tonight!!! Still looking for a way to have the AVR automatically select the best sound output for each source. That said, it seems the AVR is selecting "Straight" when playing from the Samsung Blu-Ray. But, I can't tell if the AVR is looking at what the Disc is encoded with- sound wise- or the settings I have selected on the player. Ok, my head just exploded!!!


It's not that hard. When the BDP is set to output "Bitstream", the AVR will take any 5.1 surround track it gets, and decode it properly, automatically. When it gets two-channel material, it will default to ProLogic, which is mostly ok, but that may mono up some stereo material, so be prepared to turn off ProLogic in a few rare cases where it all sounds like it's coming from the center. Of course, old mono soundtracks are supposed to do that, so you have to think just a little. We didn't have much in the way of stereo/surround on film until the 80s, with a few notable exceptions like Star Wars, and a handfull of others, all of which have been released with Dolby Digital or better tracks. Short story, just let the AVR do its thing. 

The short story on ProLogic is, it's meant to decode early surround soundtracks that predate Dolby Digital 5.1. In the old days they encoded 4 tracks onto 2, because most sources only had stereo (2 track) soundtracks, especially theatrical projectors. ProLogic will re-channel that material back to L, C, R, and S. PLII creates slightly different L surround and R surround, but still only out of stereo/2 track soundtracks. The downside is, the process can make some mixes that were _not_ encoded sound very mono, and come mostly from C. When that happens, you either turn PLII off and go just stereo, or go to PLII Music mode, which doesn't mono things quite so much. 

Typically, though, you just leave things as you have, and sound takes care of itself.


Evan98 said:


> Also, still trying to figure out why YPAO isn't adjusting the EQ settings when I run setup. It always leaves it on PEQ. The manual is no help on this one. Perhaps messing with the EQ for each speaker does more harm than good with this particular setup??


 Check the manual, I'm not sure if YPAO's adjustments will show up as PEQ changes, or if it's in the background somewhere you can't see it, like other auto EQ systems. Any manual EQ settings will modify what YPAO has done, so it's your choice, but I probably wouldn't mess with it for a while until you become more familiar with how things sound.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Evan, good to see you post again.
You should be very close on your setup right now.
I will have to look at the AVR manual again this evening and see if I can pluck anything useful from it.
As the others have said run YAPO again, then relax and listen to it for a while.


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

Hi folks-

So sorry for the delay getting back to you. My daughter has been sick, which means the wife and I are on full alert with little sleep.

Good news, after my daughter went to sleep last night my wife and I crashed on the couch completely exhausted. I seized the opportunity to turn the 5.1-tide in my favor. I switched on Pandora thru the Blu-Ray/Yamaha/Bose and selected Steely Dan (big fan). She didn't complain about the bass or surround effects at all! She didn't praise it, but the fact that she didn't complain was a major victory. Yes, I know you guys would have preferred me to listen to vinyl. One victory at a time. 

Tonight, I plan on finally running YPAO again. This will be the first time I have run YPAO since turning the LFE knob on the Bose module to a 1/4 up and turning the bass knob also to a 1/4 up. I profess an interest in seeing what the results are. That said, your explanations, though dumbed-down as much as you can for a beginner like me, are still a bit over my head as to the relationship between the bass and LFE on the module and why you suggest setting them at the same levels before running YPAO. But, you have me hooked. So, stay tuned.

Also, I'm mounting the surrounds (notice I didn't call them "rears") on the walls tonight on either side of the couch (unless you guys shout at me to stop!). The Bose cubes are currently on Bose stands about 4.5' off the floor. I plan on mounting them 6ft-6.5ft off the floor on Dynex brackets which will allow me to manipulate their angle, direction, etc. I had thought of mounting the surrounds on the ceiling above the couch (10ft off the floor), but 1.) my wife would kill me, and 2.) my wife would kill me. Of course, I won't run YPAO until the surrounds are mounted. Go? No Go?

This might not be the right forum for this question, but I'd like to stay with you folks if you don't mind. My Blu-Ray is a Samsung BDF5700 (I bought it a few months ago at Best Buy). Every other time I switch it on to watch a movie, Netflix, listen to music, etc., I get video without any problem but no audio. I have tried several different medium, and I am quite certain it's not a DVD, CD or Blu-Ray issue. I switched out different HDMI cords (Rocketfish), and the problems still persists. The only way I have been able to resolve the issue is to switch the AVR off, wait 30sec-1 minute and switch it back on. Then, the audio is crystal clear. It's not the end of the world, but it's annoying. I didn't have this problem with my old Blu-Ray connected (an LG). Thoughts???


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Evan98 said:


> Hi folks- So sorry for the delay getting back to you. My daughter has been sick, which means the wife and I are on full alert with little sleep. Good news, after my daughter went to sleep last night my wife and I crashed on the couch completely exhausted. I seized the opportunity to turn the 5.1-tide in my favor. I switched on Pandora thru the Blu-Ray/Yamaha/Bose and selected Steely Dan (big fan). She didn't complain about the bass or surround effects at all! She didn't praise it, but the fact that she didn't complain was a major victory. Yes, I know you guys would have preferred me to listen to vinyl. One victory at a time. Tonight, I plan on finally running YPAO again. This will be the first time I have run YPAO since turning the LFE knob on the Bose module to a 1/4 up and turning the bass knob also to a 1/4 up. I profess an interest in seeing what the results are. That said, your explanations, though dumbed-down as much as you can for a beginner like me, are still a bit over my head as to the relationship between the bass and LFE on the module and why you suggest setting them at the same levels before running YPAO. But, you have me hooked. So, stay tuned. Also, I'm mounting the surrounds (notice I didn't call them "rears") on the walls tonight on either side of the couch (unless you guys shout at me to stop!). The Bose cubes are currently on Bose stands about 4.5' off the floor. I plan on mounting them 6ft-6.5ft off the floor on Dynex brackets which will allow me to manipulate their angle, direction, etc. I had thought of mounting the surrounds on the ceiling above the couch (10ft off the floor), but 1.) my wife would kill me, and 2.) my wife would kill me. Of course, I won't run YPAO until the surrounds are mounted. Go? No Go? This might not be the right forum for this question, but I'd like to stay with you folks if you don't mind. My Blu-Ray is a Samsung BDF5700 (I bought it a few months ago at Best Buy). Every other time I switch it on to watch a movie, Netflix, listen to music, etc., I get video without any problem but no audio. I have tried several different medium, and I am quite certain it's not a DVD, CD or Blu-Ray issue. I switched out different HDMI cords (Rocketfish), and the problems still persists. The only way I have been able to resolve the issue is to switch the AVR off, wait 30sec-1 minute and switch it back on. Then, the audio is crystal clear. It's not the end of the world, but it's annoying. I didn't have this problem with my old Blu-Ray connected (an LG). Thoughts???


Ooooh, sick kids are no fun. No sleepy!
Yes. Little victories, one at a time. I'll take another shot at the LFE/bass thing. Think of the module as producing frequencies from 0-100(not actual lol). The LFE knob controls the lower ones from 0-50. The bass knob controls from 50-100. If either is set higher than the other, then that range will be more pronounced. The reason to set the knobs in the same position is hopefully the output of both ranges would be the same. But due to room interactions, either range could be louder depending on module placement. Since the module is connected with an LFE cable, and the connector dongle, ypao might be able to address this. So starting with the knobs in the same position is a good start. Fwiw, I'm quite willing to be corrected on that. 
Yeah, I still say put your surrounds where you said, at 6-6.5'. If you could leave them on the stands and stack books or something under them, you might be able to get a good idea of the best height in your room before committing. ...don't want death by wife either! Not sure about BD player. I'll dig out my thinkin cap! Btw, is it not the best to just sit back and get swallowed by surround? Love it!


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

Willis:

Great advice about books under the stands before tearing into apartment walls. I couldn't mount the surrounds tonight because mother and baby we're here...and both knew I was up to something. Going for the book idea tomorrow. Thanks!

Your LFE/bass breakdown clicked with me. I get it. That being said, for arguments sake, why leave both knobs set at 1/4 instead of in the middle positions as recommended by Bose??? Running the YPAO tomorrow afternoon. 

Thanks again for the fantastic tips and guidance...and I appreciate any guesses on the Blu-Ray issue.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> Think of the module as producing frequencies from 0-100(not actual lol). The LFE knob controls the lower ones from 0-50. The bass knob controls from 50-100.


No.

The LFE input on the Bose comes from the AVR subwoofer output and the way the AVR is currently configured only the LFE track (the.1 track on DVD and Bluray) is there.
I am not sure of the exact frequency range but 0Hz to 200Hz is the ballpark.
The LFE volume only controls the '.1 track information.

The way the AVR is configured 5 channels of sound come into the bass module and the bass module through the AVR speaker outputs.
The module sums the low frequencies together and produces them.
The bass volume on the module controls the volume level of the low frequencies coming out of the AVR speaker outputs.
The high frequencies are sent to the cube speaker they are supposed to go to.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

chashint said:


> No.
> 
> The LFE input on the Bose comes from the AVR subwoofer output and the way the AVR is currently configured only the LFE track (the.1 track on DVD and Bluray) is there.
> I am not sure of the exact frequency range but 0Hz to 200Hz is the ballpark.


 LFE is 120Hz and below, and calibrated 10dB higher than LCRS reference to provide for LF impact. There's technically no crossover in the LFE channel, the 120Hz limit is done in production and by virtue of the soundtrack coding method.


chashint said:


> The LFE volume only controls the '.1 track information.
> 
> The way the AVR is configured 5 channels of sound come into the bass module and the bass module through the AVR speaker outputs.
> The module sums the low frequencies together and produces them.
> The bass volume on the module controls the volume level of the low frequencies coming out of the AVR speaker outputs.


...that are being produced by the bass module.


chashint said:


> The high frequencies are sent to the cube speaker they are supposed to go to.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hi guys, I think what I may have left out of my super simple description:

willis7469 wrote:
Think of the module as producing frequencies from 0-100(not actual lol). The LFE knob controls the lower ones from 0-50. The bass knob controls from 50-100.

was, that the "bass"knob also controls how much bass comes out of the cubes too. (Which to my estimation will be a negligible amount compared to the amount coming out of the module, and in my mind was already determined by the module anyway) My goal was to point out that two separate forms of bass will be controlled on the module. What I think no one has said yet (?), is that during music without a .1 soundtrack, that LFE knob will do nothing. Right? Since there won't be anything to "sum", since (LFE) only applies to movies anyway. Am I missing something here too?

I don't want to be the toast crumbs in the butter here but, since Evan still has his training wheels on (respectfully), I figured splitting hairs on actual freq numbers wasn't helping. (I did say 0-100, not actual, but should have said these are only to show a range and don't represent actual frequencies) That's why I "tried" more of a scale model thing. He seems more than willing to put his nose in the books, but sometimes when your stuck on some of the terminology, it doesn't make sense until you understand the general scope. I think by putting his hands on the system, he'll see the results and then be able to reverse engineer in his mind how they came to be as opposed to figuring it out blindly. 
Again, I'm more than willing to stand corrected. I feel that what I told Evan was basically the same thing you guys did. This would be so much easier if the geniuses at Bose would release numbers. Ie: my onkyo manual says "bass" control is centered at 50hz +/- 10db. I don't care about the "secret sauce" recipe, I just wanna know temp, and cook time! 
Cheers!


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Willis,
I read your post differently than you intended.
I think you have a handle on how it works, it is just difficult to get it written down.
I agree about not getting hung up on frequencies, they really are not very important at this time.
If the AVR is set up the way I think it is you are correct....during music without a .1 soundtrack, that LFE knob will do nothing....

Evan,
I will take another stab at describing it.

Picture it like this....The bass module is playing two positions in the speaker system and each cube is playing a single position.

In postion 1 the bass module is part of a multi-channel two way speaker system, it works with each cube speaker and plays the low frequencies assigned to a cubes channel.
The sound that this part of the system plays comes out of the AVR speaker terminals to the bass module where the sound is split into high frequencies with one channel of sound coming out of each cube and the low frequencies of all the speaker channels coming out of the single bass module. 
On the bass module the bass volume control level matches the low frequency sounds being played by the module to the volume level of high frequency sounds coming from the cubes.

In position 2 think of the bass module as a completely separate subwoofer with its own volume control. 
The sound that this part of the module plays comes from the AVR subwoofer output.
The .1 channel or LFE channel is a separate channel on DVD and Bluray that only has low frequency sounds in it. As an example a 5.1 channel sound track actually has 6 unique channels of sound in it, 5 full frequency tracks that go to the speakers and one special low frequency effects (LFE) track that goes to the subwoofer.
The LFE volume control on the bass module level matches the the module's subwoofer section to the volume level of the speakers.

If my description of how the Bose system works is unclear I apologize.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Chashint, you are very correct. It can be quite difficult in translating from the mind to the keyboard. Verbally, I can articulate in a much better fashion, but I end up using a lot of words. That's s lot harder when plucking away on my phone! Lol

Evan, I'm gonna try the 1/4 vs 1/2 thing on you. 
The reason for level matching all of your channels is for accurate soundtrack reproduction, as the sound designers mastered it. Running ypao, or setting manually, the target is 75 db output from each channel. (This is a "reference" standard which is for another topic). The reason Bose "suggests" 1/2 way, is only a suggestion. Due to different "sensitivities" in different AVRs amp sections, when the test tones are run, let's say the 5 main channel trims will show zero in the trim sliders. When the lfe knob is at 1/2 turn, the test tone from the module might be too loud, or too quiet, so it has to be trimmed up or down to match the rest of the channels. Example: LFE at 1/2. Ypao sets the LFE trim at -10. (It read 75db during setup)
2) LFE at 1/4. Ypao sets LFE trim at -5. (It still read 75db). With the module at "whatever" volume setting, the AVR will compensate by adjusting the trim internally. 
So if for example you wanted the LFE trim in the AVR to be at zero, you might have the LFE knob all the way down. The point to being close to zero on the trim is flexibility. If you have the knobs too high, ypao will try to back off the level in the AVR, to get the output down to 75 when it runs the setup. In that case you can't back it off unless you turn the knob on the module. I say you never want to trim with the knobs because you never really get it back to where it was. If you need to trim, do it with the AVR. Then you have an "absolute" number to go back to. I hope your hair is not on fire!!!! I'm also glad to be part of your cheer team, and hope you find my observations useful. 
Btw, I also work incognito. My wife won't know about a project or HT addition til it's in place. Much like your surround speaker relocation. Good stuff!


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

Hey guys-
Sorry for the absence. I was out of town and my wife wouldn't let me take the system with me to keep tinkering.  That said, I wouldn't be surprised if you've moved on to bigger and better things. 

Just in case...surround speakers are now mounted on either side of the couch (main listening position) at about 6' height. There's some difference, in a good way, but not mind altering. Still, I think it was worth it.

Ran YPAO with LFE and BASS knobs at 1/4 turn. The system set the C/LF/RF between -0.1db and +1.0db. The speakers were set to "Large." In all, content with the sound coming from those speakers.

The surrounds were set to 0db-0.5db and "Small" was selected by the YPAO. I wasn't thrilled with the sound (I thought it sounded weak or lacking- if that makes sense). Made a "bold" move and increased the levels on each to 4.5db. Sounds better. Did I defy the G-d's by going against the YPAO calibration? Why were the surrounds set to "Small" and the C/LF/RF set to "Large?"

Not happy with Bass Module performance. It's as if it's not producing anything. It's not broke, I know that for sure. YPAO left it at -0.1db with "Extra Bass" off and crossover set to 80hz. I have not touched the equalizer settings for any of the speakers. I think I'll run YPAO again, but I don't know whether to manipulate the bass module controls again before running calibration.

I'm reading tons on the Internet here and there. I might call Yamaha tomorrow and see what they recommend for the RXV-375 and Bose AM 10.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Good to see you post again.
See post 2,3,8.
That is the basic setup and everything else has been restating or explaining what some of it means.
The volume controls on the bass module have been explained to the best of everyone's abilities.
Everything described in this thread only gets you to the base line setup.
Write down the settings so you can go back to it to compare any changes you make.
Increasing bass/LFE volume is OK, if it sounds better to you.
Increasing any of the speaker levels is OK if it sounds better to you.
Almost everyone tweaks their system after the auto calibration, it's normal.
The Bose speaker system costs quite a bit of money for what you get and while it can sound OK, there's no overcoming the shortcoming of the basic design of the system.
Studying the AVR manual is probably worthwhile, there are people here that can help explain some of the functions.


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

Crashint:

Thanks for the reply and guidance (wisdom). I re-read the posts, and I think I'm about ready to put his baby to bed until I win the lottery and bug you guys for recommendations on the truly ugly A/V stuff my wife will hate you guys for.

I spoke with Yamaha tech support and gave them all the specs on my set up. They agreed with virtually everything said in the group (said they would love to have you guys working for them...I told them you were all applying for Bose internships..). They advise me to turn the receiver's "extra bass" setting ON before running YPAO. They say that setting on the receiver should be labeled "Yes, use the sub" or something like that. Because I have "extra bass" switched OFF the receiver assumes I don't want to use the sub and is sending all low frequency to the fronts, which the AVR is setting to "Large." Tech says the AVR is setting the surrounds to "Small" most like likely because of room acoustics, design, etc.. They advise setting the LFE and Bass knobs on the module 1/2 before running YPAO. Not sure how you guys feel about that one.

Also got my question answered regarding whether the AVR will automatically select the best sound setting based on what's coming into the AVR (Blu-Ray, DirecTV, iPod, etc.). I was told the RXV-375 does not have the automatic selection feature. That decision is all up to the user. 

If y'all disagree with Yamaha tech I don't know if I want you to tell me. My head will probably explode. 

Seriously, though, can't thank you guys enough for your time, patience and expertise. You should charge for this stuff...


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Evan98 said:


> They advise setting the LFE and Bass knobs on the module 1/2 before running YPAO. Not sure how you guys feel about that one..


 This was addressed back around post #43.


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

Yup, it was. Totally agree. I set them to 1/4 each based on some other advice before I ran the Yamaha calibration the other week. It's all clicking in now. Thanks.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey, good to see you in here again. It's funny, I was just going through my old subscribed threads yesterday, and was wondering how it was goin for you. I'm glad you called an OEM tech. I've found them to be  most useful. As far as the 1/2 way position goes? That's fine, it will just move your trims farther down in the minus range. As far as being in the + range, that can introduce noise into the signal if you go too high. (As per Tom V's advice elsewhere) 
Hope your still havin fun!
Will


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

He was hitting the trim rail when it was at 1/2 volume, 1/4 got it into an adjustable range for the YAPO.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Evan98 said:


> ..I told them you were all applying for Bose internships...


Just because we may understand how they work does not mean we like them all that much.
Given the opportunity I think every one of us would have picked something different for you.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

chashint said:


> He was hitting the trim rail when it was at 1/2 volume, 1/4 got it into an adjustable range for the YAPO.


Oh yeah, I forgot he bottomed out. Wonder if he mentioned that to Yamaha?


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

I guess I must be getting hooked because I was reading the article, below, on LFE and Bass management. If someone can tell me how this guy's reasoning applies to a system like mine I'd appreciate it. 

http://www.ambisonic.net/bassmgt1.html


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Seems to me, that article was addressing people who are mixing soundtracks, and music. It kind of made me feel like I was reading some edge case thing. I dint find much value, and wouldn't put much into it.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I do applaud you however for diving in! Good job!


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

re: http://www.ambisonic.net/bassmgt1.html

The article was written for people creating surround music mixes, a special case of surround. The concern was in producing music mixes on 5.1 systems designed for film soundtracks.

There's been a lot of debate in the music world about what is correct for music surround, including taking dipole surround speakers to task over direct radiators. But 5.1 music still hasn't really caught on, though it's a huge improvement over stereo, people just don't get it. The basics of 5.1 music solves a lot of handicaps built into stereo, and works far better than "quad". And had it been properly promoted in the late 1990s we would have a different music scene today. 

Three things happened that crippled surround music after the last big push in 1997. First was lack of promotion to the general public, who today remains largely unaware that wonderful 5.1 surround versions of many favorite records even exist. Second was that HD radio could have been formatted for 5.1 with intelligent down-mix, perfect for cars, and which could have driven 5.1 music production into high gear, but broadcasters are very short sighted, so even with HD radio we're still at 2.0, after 55 years of stereo broadcasting. And last, the iPod and the like became the hot new way to play and buy music. Again, 2.0 only. 

The article is also quite dated. A lot has changed in AVRs since 2002. It's an interesting curiosity at best, but not meant for, nor helpful to anyone setting up a surround system at home. It also pre-dates just about every decent auto-cal system we now have. Not that the basics are wrong, but lots has changed in 12 years!

Everyone do yourself a favor. Go get a copy of "Dark Side of the Moon" in 5.1, and see what the fuss is/was about.


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

Gazoink-
What you wrote in response to the link I posted was a pleasure to read- and it helped put that article into proper perspective (I actually had a feeling it might be dated, but I was attracted to the gentleman's breakdown of LFE). 

I own that copy of Dark Side in 5.1 and will be enjoying it this week when the wife takes our daughter to a "mom-thing." Must admit, I don't know how you guys feel about Pandora, but I have been totally enjoying listening to Steely Dan and the like in 5.1 now that I have followed all of your tips and suggestions for calibration. And, the wife is becoming a Steely Dan fan as well!

Would absolutely LOVE your recommendations on other 5.1 classic rock/jazz/progressive rock albums that you feel really "show-off" 5.1. 

I can honestly and finally say that I'm pretty sure I have everything with the RXV-375 and the Bose AM 10 set to the best of my preferences and LARGELY- if not ENTIRELY- based on the patient and expert advice of you good folks. I'm really pleased with the overall sound. It's a HUGE improvement from where it was before my first post to this thread.

I might give Yamaha tech a call tomorrow regarding one lingering question not addressed in the owner's manual. Now that the "Extra Bass" setting on the AVR is ON and the sub is active, there is no change in the bass when I manipulate the sub level via the AVR from -10db to +10db. The only way to manipulate the LFE & bass is to adjust the knobs on the Bose module. Again, though, this is just curiosity on my part- NOT OCD (I hope...although you folks are a bad influence as my wife says.). The AVR set the sub to -10db during the last YPAO, and I had the LFE and bass knobs on the module at 1/2. 

As usual, thanks again for the tutoring


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

The Yamaha EXTRA BASS setting could be similar to the ONkyo's DOUBLE BASS setting where the AVR mixes together the LFE & Bass signals together.?


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I browsed your AVR manual at the time you started the thread and thought 'extra bass on' would be the correct setting to use with your speakers.
With a traditional speaker setup the front L/R speakers are individual towers that are capable of producing bass down to ~40 Hz or so.
In this case turning on 'extra bass' could create an out of phase condition between the speakers and the subwoofer. This cannot happen with the Acoustimass speaker system.
Your speakers are not traditional, the bass module produces all the sound below ~120Hz for all the channels.
Some of the advice you have been getting here comes from what is considered 'normal' while the Bose speaker system is anything but normal.
One thing to keep in mind now that you know how to establish the base line setup is....there is no wrong way to listen to your system.
Since you prefer the 'extra bass on' setting I think you should simply keep it (I recognize that I may be biased since this is how I think it should be set for the Bose speakers anyway).
I participate in other audio forums and there are a good number of people with traditional speaker systems that use the 'extra bass' or 'double bass' function because they like it even though the general advice is not to do that.

Right now I would advise to start studying your AVR manual, a very wise man once told me there is a big difference between studying and reading...he was right.
Learn how your AVR works and what each function actually does, as you go along ask for clarification in the forums when you do not understand something.


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## Evan98 (Apr 8, 2014)

Are you suggesting that I actually research what confuses me and learn not to be scared of all of these terms and acoustic stuff? That's ludicrous!!! I'm kidding of course.

I am very much content with the set-up, now, thanks in large part to the tips and explanations I got from the forum. I'll continue tinkering, I'm sure. But, for now, my focus is on my family and work. Like I said at the beginning of the forum, I'm fortunate to have what I have! I might check out the Bose forums and see what those folks are talking about. There is sure to be bias in those threads. That said, I'm pretty good at filtering out nonsense...

The AVR manual is all but shredded due to me reading it backwards and forwards. But, I agree. Perhaps I run to these forums before I even attempt to do a quick search on my own. That's classic Evan. But, in all fairness to newbies like me, you folks make these forums so tempting because you're so into this stuff and willing to lend a hand. You're basically like an open bar at an AA meeting. 

One last question for the forum before I retire for good- or regenerate. My SONY headphones, which I bought many moons ago broke last night. Mostly due to normal wear-and-tear. I don't see a "Headphones" forum here. Anyone have recommendations for something under $80 for use with iPods and occasionally plugged into the AVR?


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

chashint said:


> ...
> In this case turning on 'extra bass' could create an out of phase condition between the speakers and the subwoofer. This cannot happen with the Acoustimass speaker system.


I might clarify. There is always a possibility of an out of phase condition between the mains and subs, it's not specific to having bass management set one way or another, though the results would be far more obvious with full range mains, extra-bass on, and an out of phase sub. Being out of phase in the crossover region is never good. Auto cal systems are fairly good at detecting this, but sometimes can be fooled by acoustic situations, so they aren't 100%. But just because you're using a somewhat higher crossover frequency doesn't mean it still can't happen. However, it does make it easier to detect, so if YPAO doesn't think the sub is out of phase, it's not.


chashint said:


> Your speakers are not traditional, the bass module produces all the sound below ~120Hz for all the channels.


 Perhaps a tad misleading. There are far more speakers in the world that won't produce bass in the subwoofer region than there are true full-range speakers. So it's all in what you consider "traditional" vs "typical". It's not a question of will they or won't they, but rather degree, which explains why some full-range systems benefit from "extra-bass" (Yamaha), Double-Bass (Onkyo) or LFE+Main (Denon). It's really hard to get deep, even bass in some rooms, those settings are a compromise. The LFE+Main/Extra-bass settings also are very useful if you listen to 5.1 music that's mixed without anything in the .1 channel. 


chashint said:


> Some of the advice you have been getting here comes from what is considered 'normal' while the Bose speaker system is anything but normal.
> One thing to keep in mind now that you know how to establish the base line setup is....there is no wrong way to listen to your system.
> Since you prefer the 'extra bass on' setting I think you should simply keep it (I recognize that I may be biased since this is how I think it should be set for the Bose speakers anyway).


I'd have to take exception with the "there is no wrong way to listen to your system" concept. There certainly are wrong configurations (not "right"), that is if the goal is as even, uncolored an natural reproduction as possible, which it turns out pleases just about everyone. Extra Bass is the correct setting for the Bose system, and that would be the "right" way.


chashint said:


> Right now I would advise to start studying your AVR manual, a very wise man once told me there is a big difference between studying and reading...he was right.
> Learn how your AVR works and what each function actually does, as you go along ask for clarification in the forums when you do not understand something.


Good advise.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Evan the last thing I want you to do is to retire from the forum.
It has been a pleasure to converse with you.
If my recommendation to study the manual inferred anything negative it was not intentional.
I think you are ready for it and know enough now to ask good questions. 

I will not engage in a debate over this but in my opinion the post above where I am quoted and mostly refuted does not apply to the way the Acoustimass speaker system works.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey Evan, try anything by Steven Wilson/Porcupine Tree. I think he just redid a 2nd Yes album, and did the dark side of the moon, plus a bunch of others I can't think of. I'll drop em in if I think of it. I'm waiting for "The Wall"
Will


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

You also asked about pandora. I use it a lot, but definitely not for critical listening. If I'm sitting doin paper work on the couch, or things around the house, it's usually on. One issue I have is that in my speakers, are titanium tweeters, and I find them terribly unforgiving to source material. For example, good/great recordings sound amazing and detailed, while streaming, and bad digital recordings, even dish network can be laid bare to hear digital compression in all it's glory! It drives me crazy...but if I don't focus on it it's not always that bad. 
Incidentally, I'm on the couch right now doing paper work, and writing this while pandora is playing my porcupine tree channel. Maybe Pink Floyd next!


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I use Pandora regularly too and I think it sounds better than FM radio by a significant margin.
Anytime my source is set to play random tracks it is for background music purposes.
If I am alone and am listening to music I play "albums". I don't know that I would call this critical listening but it is the way I enjoy music the most when I am actually paying attention to it.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lol. Ok maybe "critical listing" is a little stiff. I also enjoy listening to albums, from start to finish, (sometimes 2 or 3 times) if I can afford the time. I think today the art of crafting and building a song, and especially an album has been lost. (Many contributors) This is especially true in more popular music, but when a song is in the first chorus in less than 10 seconds...sad.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

chashint said:


> I use Pandora regularly too and I think it sounds better than FM radio by a significant margin.
> Anytime my source is set to play random tracks it is for background music purposes.
> If I am alone and am listening to music I play "albums". I don't know that I would call this critical listening but it is the way I enjoy music the most when I am actually paying attention to it.


Just curious...if FM radio sounded as good or better than Pandora, would you prefer radio?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I know you quoted chashint, but I will say for me, I would not prefer fm, mostly due to programming. It seems broadcast radio, no matter the genre has to rotate about 10 songs, and 27 commercials. (the same 10 songs) Personally one of the things I like about pandora is the variety, and new (to me) music. Do you find this true also?


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> Personally one of the things I like about pandora is the variety, and new (to me) music. Do you find this true also?


Yes, quite. FM quality can be good but usually isn't, and yes outside of non-commercial stations, the interruptions and short play list pretty much drives me off. 

I should probably start a survey on this one....


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

gazoink said:


> Just curious...if FM radio sounded as good or better than Pandora, would you prefer radio?


No, I would stick with Pandora at home.
Virtually no commercials, and when they do an advertisement it is short and sweet.
Plus being able to customize the genre by an artist name is a big plus, especially when trying out something new.
In the vehicle if I am listening to the radio it's sports talk, if I want music I use a flash drive or the iPod.


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