# Epson 8350 Judder?



## slansing (Jun 5, 2013)

Hello, anyone out there own a 8350, or know of a way to squeeze as much "judder" out of it as possible? I have started to notice my eyes have issues tracking movement, or panning on movies.. It is quite annoying and makes for a bad viewing experience, I have set my PS3 to 24 hrz, and also turned it off, there was not much of a difference.. I may just return it tomorrow and get a DLP projector as I have heard they have much less of an issue with this, any thoughts on how to help resolve this problem, or on picking up a BenQ W1070 instead?:dontknow:onder:


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

slansing said:


> Hello, anyone out there own a 8350, or know of a way to squeeze as much "judder" out of it as possible? I have started to notice my eyes have issues tracking movement, or panning on movies.. It is quite annoying and makes for a bad viewing experience, I have set my PS3 to 24 hrz, and also turned it off, there was not much of a difference.. I may just return it tomorrow and get a DLP projector as I have heard they have much less of an issue with this, any thoughts on how to help resolve this problem, or on picking up a BenQ W1070 instead?:dontknow:onder:


that's really an issue of something without motion smoothing or the like. I have an epson 8350 and I don't notice it having any more juttering than the Mits HC 4000 (dlp)


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Horizontal panning on movies looks rough because of the 24Hz capture ratio. Are you talking about that or actual judder. If you see judder, something in the playback chain is not actually at 24Hz. If it just consistently looks jumpy, you are seeing what is expected in movies. Judder is a change in the rate of the ugly jumpiness that is periodic due to the conversion of 24Hz to video rates.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

> Hello, anyone out there own a 8350, or know of a way to squeeze as much "judder" out of it as possible? I have started to notice my eyes have issues tracking movement, or panning on movies.. It is quite annoying and makes for a bad viewing experience ...


Not sure if it's the same thing, but FWIW:

When I replaced my InFocus SP7210 (720p DLP) with a JVC DLA-HD250 (1080p, LCOS) just over a year ago, I started noticing motion blur on scenes with even moderate amounts of panning, or with close-up movement.

I thought there was a problem with the PJ, so I picked up a BenQ W7000 (1080p, DLP) and noticed the same thing. I replayed the same scenes on my LCD TVs and, yup, same issue with motion blur. I also asked my wife and a couple of buddies (who also have PJs) whether they noticed the blur, and they said 'no'.

So, I concluded that it was my eyes. Which really sucked. But over the course of the past year, I've grown accustomed to the blur so that although I still see it, it just doesn't bother me the way it did at first.


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## slansing (Jun 5, 2013)

My eyes are excellent, it definitely does not look like the normal judder that takes place on dolly's.. for instance, if you take the scene from Star Wars Episode 1 "BDDVD" when Qui-gon, Ben, and Padame are walking into the citry on Tattoine "can't remembe the name" there is a horrible judder..almost laggy effect as the camera pans out and around them while they are moving in it's opposite direction. This is much more noticeable with the lamp at high light output, and in this case, you can see light color's "the sun lit sand" in the background start to strobe.

This also occurs with a still camera, but with objects moving on screen, such as a body swaying as it walks towards the camera, if you try to track the person's image "or face" my eyes start to shake with the image and I have to blink and look elsewhere in the picture.. I'm really on the fence about replacing this PJ with a DLP "though it sounds like the one I am looking at would be a downgrade" the w1070 seems to have motion correction "or something like that."

Tests:

I have placed the PS3 in 24hrz, the projector's info page says it is outputting at 23.90hrz "normal" by 1080p, with 2:2 pulldown enabled.

Then I tested with the PS3's 24hrz "disabled/off" the projector reported 59.90 hrz "again normal" by 1080p, at this point I turned 2:2 "off" in the PJ's settings, and tried to view again.. now..it seemed the judder is less and I can hardly notice the small strobe effect on light areas. Its almost as if the PJ can't refresh fast enough for the image's movement, so it is in effect skipping frames, or as mentioned, not smoothing them to create extra fluidity between the 24p judders.

I know the DLP is not a double shutter cannon, "I wish I had the money for that." But it sounds like they can refresh faster.. if I didn't have such a critical eye my hobbies would cost me much less.... 

It should also be noted I'm pushing this through a Onkyo TX NR-809, I'm not sure if I can change anything on the AVR to effect this..


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

> My eyes are excellent ...


Yeah, my eyes are excellent, too. 

Hope you're able to resolve the issue.


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## slansing (Jun 5, 2013)

Ahh, I misread your post and thought you were talking smack about my eyes.. 

Well.. the Army, and my civilian eye doc both seem to think so, and my Girlfriend's eyes are worse than mine, "wears glasses and the like." While she barley notices it, when I turn the brightness up she agrees.. I just don't know if it is an issue with the PJ, the source "ps3," the receiver, or what not.. I guess what I am asking is.. would a DLP PJ make much of a difference? It's hard to believe you guys can stand this sort of judder "it is that bad." I think it's a mix of the image skipping frames, and some sort of ghosting, or artifact between them.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

> Ahh, I misread your post and thought you were talking smack about my eyes..


Funny, and I thought you were dissing mine... 

Sounds like your issue is very different than what I'm experiencing. Apologies if I missed this, but have you tried:
- connecting your PS3 directly to the PJ (to rule out a problem with the AVR);
- connecting the PS3 to a different display (to rule out a problem with the PS3); and
- connecting a different source to the PJ (to rule out a problem with the PJ)?


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## slansing (Jun 5, 2013)

I did try hooking the PS3 directly to the PJ for another reason, but now that this one has come to light I'm going to try that tonight, I'll try all those suggestions, I guess if it does not resolve the problem I'll take the PJ back huh? It was already an openbox, got it for 300 dollars off at the local BestBuy "I know...I know..Best Buy.." Do you think a DLP of a comparative price would offer any improvement? I know the 8350 has some sort of motion detection option, unfortunately that is greyed out....ugh.

The thing is, I never noticed judder on my old Samsung LCD with the same PS3 source.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

Not to make too obvious a statement but:
- if the problem is with the Epson, getting a DLP PJ will necessarily be an improvement;
- if the problem is not with the Epson, getting a DLP PJ likely won't change anything.

Since you didn't notice this issue with the Samsung display, it sounds like the open-box Epson is the culprit.



> I know the 8350 has some sort of motion detection option, unfortunately that is greyed out....ugh.


According to pg. 38 of the owner's manual, "Motion Detection":


> ... specifies how signals are converted to progressive signals. ...
> 
> Note: This setting can be used only when viewing composite video or S-Video signals, or 480i or 576i, or 1080i signals input through the Component, HDMI 1, or HDMI 2 ports (see page 67).


It's not the same as frame interpolation, though, and I don't think it would address the problem you're having.

-- Edit --
Have you tried toggling the 2-2 Pulldown option (pg. 39 of the owner's manual)?


> *2-2 Pull-down (Home Cinema 8350 only)*
> Note: This setting can be used only when viewing a 1080p/24Hz signal input through the Component, HDMI 1, or HDMI 2 ports (see page 67). This setting cannot be used when the Color Mode is set to x.v.Color (see page 28) or with a signal input through the PC port.
> 
> This setting allows you to select whether images are projected with 2-2 pulldown detection or 2-3 pulldown detection. Select On for 2-2 pulldown detection.


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## slansing (Jun 5, 2013)

Yes, now to hunt down the culprit and burn it with pitch . Thanks for conversing about this, I'm still going to run it through a few tests tonight, but I'll definitely hit the gamut of tests and try to shake out what I can. Any tips on a replacement PJ I could pick up there, or online?

I did switch on and off 2:2 pull down, I don't recall it making much of a difference, though admittedly I was in a sort of calm/sad/furious/WHYYYYY?! state last night when I really started to notice this "problem."


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

Happy hunting! 

Not sure what PJ to recommend, so I'll refer you to the Top 10 Home Theater Projectors page at ProjectorCentral.com.


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## slansing (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks, if you are interested I can reply back here with the outcome of all this, feel free to post any thoughts you feel you want to share. What a coincidence the BenQ W1070 is #1 on the list there.. hah.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

Please do post the outcome, including what PJ you end up with (if, in fact, you do need to replace the PJ).


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## DaveCarrera4S (May 27, 2013)

I'm surprised, I've never seen this effect. Can you describe the input source, processing? Is your Onkyo changing something or is it direct pass thru? My Pioneer SC1522 AVR converts everything to 1024P/24 frame and it all looks great!


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## slansing (Jun 5, 2013)

Hi Dave, the input is either through the AVR, or direct, this issue is not present on a Samsung 32" LCD from the same PS3 HDMI source. I have returned the projector and am going to demo a new 8350 from a local home theater shop, unfortunately they are a 9-5 office, and so am I so I have to pick it up tomorrow and test tomorrow night. Ill let you all know what I find!


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## slansing (Jun 5, 2013)

Well, my brand new w7000 arrived, MAN! This thing is leagues nicer than the 8350, the sheer options alone are overwhelming.. I did a basic calibration with the Disney WOW disk, though I will have to revisit this again as I have no clue how to adjust color and tint properly. The judder is still there, so I have also concluded it is my eyes. I do notice the rainbow effect but that is easy to live with..the sharpness over the 8350 is quite an improvement. Woo!:rubeyes:


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

Congrats on the new PJ! The W7000 is a nice machine. 

Bummer about the eyes, though.  With any luck, you'll get used to it before too long. (It doesn't go away but, like tinnitus, you learn to ignore it as much as possible.)


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## slansing (Jun 5, 2013)

Yea, I have already started to get used to it.. I guess I just had to mentally accept that that's how things are going to be.. haha. Oh well! If anyone wants updates on anything let me know.. for now, off to buy my next toy "a pair of Tekton Designs M-Lore's.." :sn:


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