# Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review: Discussion Thread



## Dale Rasco

[img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/images/dual_vs18_1.jpg[/img]
*Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review: Discussion Thread*

*For the Full Review Click Here!*

*Summary:* As I mentioned early on, these speakers are not the most aesthetically refined speakers out there. They’re not going to win any awards for clarity, response or any other performance related, yet oddly subjective driven awards that are out there. But I will say quite candidly that they do represent one of the best values available on the market today. Let me clarify this a bit because I am not talking about budget speaker companies; I am talking about Internet direct speaker companies, big box store companies and everything in between. The performance of the SHO-10’s can easily keep in lockstep and even surpass many of the offerings from Klipsch, Definitive Technologies and B&W at a fraction of the cost and there is not a subwoofer that I think can compete with the 18.1’s performance at MSRP. Now that doesn’t mean that there isn’t anything left to consider. For instance, it could take a considerable amount of time to get the 18.1’s dialed in and sounding right and they do sometimes run a bit ‘throaty’ when compared to sealed subs. These are the type of subwoofers that you legitimately ask yourself “Am I doing long term damage to the structural integrity of my home by testing War of the Worlds?”

Those that are new or just novice’s of home theater may want to do some more research before jumping in and buying the 18.1’s due to the confusion that an external amp can cause for those who are unfamiliar with outboard amps. Additionally, those that are unfamiliar with taming bass via an external EQ, Anti-Mode or enhanced EQ functions found in Audyssey XT-32 may want to hold off until you have a better understanding of what all is involved with dialing in these monsters. But I assure you boys and girls that if you have the ‘know how’ and are in the market for a new sub, there is unquestionably no better value in my mind that will yield this much brutal, thumping, crushing and absolutely uncompromising bass as the Chase HT VS-18.1 even at twice the cost.

Please feel free to discuss below!

*For the Full Review Click Here!*


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## Murrel

*re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Great review Mr. Rasco! Congratulations to the Chase Home Theater crew. I have a new house with a blank slate in the basement. Craig I may have to rethink what equipment is going in my new place! Lucky for me its my room and I have no WAF constraints!


Murrel


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## ALMFamily

*re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

First off - thanks Dale for the review. It takes a lot of effort to put all this together for us and I for one appreciate it very much.

After reading through the entire review, it is cinched. I will be making the 10 hour drive to hear these in person in April! :TT


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## craigsub

*re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Dale - Thanks for all the hard work you put into this review. Your combining the measurments with the listening impressions is excellent.

Your decision to post output levels at 2 meters with sine waves and at appx. 10% THD is a far more stringent test than the CEA Burst test. 

Enthusiasts will be looking forward to your measurements on other subs in the future using this methodology.

If anyone has a question about the VS-18.1 as a single (which is how Dale measured) or as a dual package (which is how he listened), please feel free to ask.

The GTG we announced for April 20-21 has been confirmed. Look for a thread at our forum for sign ups.


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## fschris

*re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

i was just checking out out the chase website. nice to see those are made here in the USA.


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## tesseract

*re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Dale, thanks for all your hard work and the time it took to put this together. :TT

Sounds like the work was balanced with fun. :hsd: Condolences to your wife. :help:


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## spurdarren

*re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Great review. It is good to see an official review done. I know I love my pair of VS18.1's. I played Battlefield 3 on Friday for the first time after getting these monsters a month ago. All I can say is wow. I was using a light machine gun and the punch in the chest i got every time I pulled the trigger was fantastic. I didnt even have it all that loud either.


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## DanK

*re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Thanks Dale for all the hard work..a lot of us will enjoy reading it. :T.


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## sbdman

*re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



> Ok, I thought it would be funny to crank this one at the beginning and see my wife’s expression; of course those kinds of things always seem like a good idea until I actually do them. Let’s just say her and I don’t always agree on what’s funny and leave it at that.


 :rofl:

Mr. Rasco, it sounds like our wives are related! When I read this I laughed out loud, the wife gave me a funny look - she probably thought, well, that's one more check mark in the "send him to the funny farm" book!

Thanks so much for your efforts in delivering your honest thoughts and evaluations in this system. You have a unique style and refreshing prose that shows the love of your hobby.


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## KalaniP

*re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Very interesting review of the Chase Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2, thank you!

Three quick followup questions to that review, two easy, and one less so:

1) Just what is the MSRP of this system? (easy) You've made several references to it, specifically in comparison to prices of subs from other manufacturers, but the MSRP under consideration is not specified anywhere in the review. (yes, I can probably go to Chase's website to look it up myself, but I personally consider price to be a pretty important specification to include in any complete review)

2) You refer to the size of the 18.1 subs as "GYNORMOUS" which makes a lot of sense, looking at the photos! But I would love to know just what constitutes that "GYNORMOUS"... what are the actual measurements of this sub? (so I know if my living room is big enough to accommodate two of these beasts!) (easy)

3) You noted that it meats or beats both big name manufacturers and ID brands, but only list big name brands after that. I'm curious about how it would compete with, say a pair (two against two, after all) of subs from SVS or Hsu. (more complicated to answer, I'm sure, but I strongly suspect this is what many of us are wondering as we read this...)


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## boober

*re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Great review! Thanks for taking the time to do it and thanks for being as thorough as you were. The ground plane measurements were nice to see as well! :clap:

BTW the pic of the VS18.1 that is sitting on a wooden floor, is a pic I actually took of 1 of my VS18.1's. I'm the proud owner of a pair of VS18.1's I bought a few months ago. I love mine still to this day. :hsd:

I'm glad I was able to contribute a little bit to the review! 

Hey, maybe that helps my chances of winning the giveaway on these things... :dumbcrazy:


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## craigsub

*re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



KalaniP said:


> Very interesting review of the Chase Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2, thank you!
> 
> Three quick followup questions to that review, two easy, and one less so:
> 
> 1) Just what is the MSRP of this system? (easy) You've made several references to it, specifically in comparison to prices of subs from other manufacturers, but the MSRP under consideration is not specified anywhere in the review. (yes, I can probably go to Chase's website to look it up myself, but I personally consider price to be a pretty important specification to include in any complete review)
> 
> 2) You refer to the size of the 18.1 subs as "GYNORMOUS" which makes a lot of sense, looking at the photos! But I would love to know just what constitutes that "GYNORMOUS"... what are the actual measurements of this sub? (so I know if my living room is big enough to accommodate two of these beasts!) (easy)
> 
> 3) You noted that it meats or beats both big name manufacturers and ID brands, but only list big name brands after that. I'm curious about how it would compete with, say a pair (two against two, after all) of subs from SVS or Hsu. (more complicated to answer, I'm sure, but I strongly suspect this is what many of us are wondering as we read this...)


I can help with questions one and two:

1. The subwoofer package of Two VS-18.1 enclosures (each with an 18 inch driver) and the Dayton amp is $1990 including shipping to the lower 48 states. The SHO-10's are $395 each shipped to the lower 48 states.

2. A single VS-18.1 is 40x22x22 inches. They actually fit nicely into a corner.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated

*Re: Chase Discussion Thread*

..................


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## Dale Rasco

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

First of all, thanks to all of you for the patience as I was putting it all together!

@Boober
I lifted the pic from the Chase site, but I appreciate you taking it and sending it to him. I couldn't get a good one for some reason using my gear. 

@Kalani
You're right, you can go to the Chase site and get it. I'm tired! 
Ok, actually the manufacturer specs for the sub are:

*
Type: Vented, single driver, passive subwoofer system
Frequency Response: 20Hz – 100Hz +/- 4 dB without any EQ being applied
In-room extension (room and placement dependent): 15Hz or lower
Driver:
One 18”, 8 ohm driver
X-Max (not X-mech) is 1.5 inches peak to peak
Fs is 19.4 Hz
Power handling is 800 watts rms
Enclosure:
1" MDF
2" thick front baffle
Countersunk driver
Slightly textured, Matte black finish
Full sized, 40" x 22" grille included
Dimensions: 40”H x 22”W x 22”D
*
As far as comparative to other subs out there in the same price range? There is no comparison. Nothing comes close to the performance in the same price range. Neither the pair of Outlaw LFM-EX1's that I had or the Axiom EP800 that I currently have can compare to the response that I measured from the Chase subs. I haven't tested the HSU or the SVS but am working on getting those in to do just that very thing, but I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that they will not reach down to 8.5Hz in room with less than a 5 db loss. I do promise to retract that statement if proven otherwise.


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## Sonnie

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Excellent review Dale... I know you spent a lot of time with it. This review actually includes what we will be doing with our future sub testing, which you eluded to Craig. The retail price and size measurements will probably be a good standard addition to each sub tested. Or perhaps we could simply include the manufacturer specs, which would probably include those numbers. It is somewhat ironic that I had fifty-eleven questions when previewing the review and did not once think about retail price or dimensions. :huh:


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## Dale Rasco

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

I remember that day; and I believe it was fifty-eleven and one!


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## MikeBiker

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Dale,

You need to place the subs in accordance with the principles of feng shui. I'm sure that that placement will result in the most harmonious sounds.


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## Dale Rasco

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

DOH!!! I knew I forgot something Mike!


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## KalaniP

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



craigsub said:


> I can help with questions one and two:
> 
> 1. The subwoofer package of Two VS-18.1 enclosures (each with an 18 inch driver) and the Dayton amp is $1990 including shipping to the lower 48 states. The SHO-10's are $395 each shipped to the lower 48 states.
> 
> 2. A single VS-18.1 is 40x22x22 inches. They actually fit nicely into a corner.





Dale Rasco said:


> As far as comparative to other subs out there in the same price range? There is no comparison. Nothing comes close to the performance in the same price range. Neither the pair of Outlaw LFM-EX1's that I had or the Axiom EP800 that I currently have can compare to the response that I measured from the Chase subs. I haven't tested the HSU or the SVS but am working on getting those in to do just that very thing, but I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that they will not reach down to 8.5Hz in room with less than a 5 db loss. I do promise to retract that statement if proven otherwise.


Thanks, Dale, and Craigsub! :T

Dale, I suspect you're right about no competition that their price point. Given the Hsu VTF-15H's price point ($1758 for two, plus shipping), I think it would quite interesting to put two of them head to head against these twin VS-18.1's ($1990 shipped, so nearly identical). I do suspect they'll get schooled, but it would still be interesting to know how close it is. I suspect the same for a single SVS PB13-Ultra (same price for one as for both Chase subs).

The next level of test would be to see just how much it would cost to meet or beat the dual VS-18.1's! :hsd:


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## TypeA

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Thanks much for a great review Dale!


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## ALMFamily

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



craigsub said:


> Dale - Thanks for all the hard work you put into this review. Your combining the measurments with the listening impressions is excellent.
> 
> Your decision to post output levels at 2 meters with sine waves and at appx. 10% THD is a far more stringent test than the CEA Burst test.
> 
> Enthusiasts will be looking forward to your measurements on other subs in the future using this methodology.
> 
> If anyone has a question about the VS-18.1 as a single (which is how Dale measured) or as a dual package (which is how he listened), please feel free to ask.
> 
> The GTG we announced for April 20-21 has been confirmed. Look for a thread at our forum for sign ups.


I will be watching for it - thanks! :bigsmile:


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## Scyan

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Thanks, very interesting read !


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## dduval

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Very Nice Review...

Just makes my decision that I went with CHT products that much better.


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## Jon Liu

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review*

Wonderful review, Dale. Craig Chase's company has always been on my radar ever since the company's inception. It is fantastic to see the results of Craig's work.


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## engtaz

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Thanks for the review. Have you listen to the 18.1 SS?


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## bribowsky

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Strong work on the review. Quick question; was there any time given for driver break in? It has been a general concensus that the CHT sub drivers are much improved after several hours (40+) of break in. At least that was the case in previous models, and iirc, the same driver is used here. If not, might we see a revisit/update later?


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## Chu Gai

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Dale, would you comment on the room that you placed the system in as well as where everything was placed? Also, based upon your outdoor measurements, there appears to be a disconnect between the FR results and the published specifications. Thoughts?


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## Dale Rasco

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Hey Chu, not sure which one you are talking about. The published FR is: 
Frequency Response: 20Hz – 100Hz +/- 4 dB without any EQ being applied. 

The outdoor FR is well within those specs

I can attach a drawing of the room later today.


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## Chu Gai

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



Dale Rasco said:


> Hey Chu, not sure which one you are talking about. The published FR is:
> Frequency Response: 20Hz – 100Hz +/- 4 dB without any EQ being applied.
> 
> The outdoor FR is well within those specs
> 
> I can attach a drawing of the room later today.


Looking at the outdoor SPL graph, and using the 100 to 20 Hz span, it appears to be roughly 0/-17 dB. I guess you can split that to your liking. Am I reading this wrong?


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## Dale Rasco

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Oh I apologize, I misread your previous post; it's still early here...


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## HomeTRNut

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Thank you for your review...very informative!:T


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## Dale Rasco

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Chu, wanted to put together another graph for the FR. These are three separate sweeps in two separate locations on two separate days. You can see that they are consistent with one another. As far as the rolloff goes, the measurements are what they are. I can't speak to how Chase captured the Frequency Response: 20Hz – 100Hz +/- 4 dB without any EQ being applied, but I can say that Chase does not make a claim on the site that those are ground plane results either.

 

As far as placement in my room goes, the measurements were taken from the listening position with both subs up front at a distance of 15 feet from the listening position. The room measures 15'X18'.


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## smurphy522

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Sonnie mentions this: "Or perhaps we could simply include the manufacturer specs, which would probably include those numbers." as a way to list the review equipment specs. I would not suggest that due to the fact that only a few Manuf. follow the same format. Instead come up with some sort of Std listing and either have the Manuf. provide data to those Stds. or extract it yourselves during the review. For example a Freq. response with +/- 3dB range in liue of +/- 4dB or 6 dB as others use.

Above is an idea so that when your reviews come out they can be compared because they followed the same format and not what ever the Manuf. happened to choose.

Just my 2¢


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## craigsub

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Good Morning guys - Let's analyze the measure response curve that Dale got against some other data.

Dale's maximum output levels for the VS-18.1 using sine waves and measured at two meters match up with what out computer models show they would. The max output at 80 Hz is 11.9 dB above the max output at 20 Hz. (116.7 dB vs. 104.8 dB). 

This means at a maximum compression sweep, we are +/- 6dB from 20 to 80 Hz. Even at max output, we are flatter outdoors than the curve showing the frequency response. A lower output level response curve is going to be flatter than the max ouput response curve with most subwoofer systems, especially those without the use of any EQ, DSP, etc ... 

If one looks at the response curve that Dale measured, one can also see that "notch" that shows the tuning frequency. This curve looks more like a close microphone curve of the driver - normally a 2 meter response curve won't show the notch at the tuning frequency as that response curve did. 

Here is the computer model of a VS-18.1 with no eq:










Here is our response measured outdoors with OmniMic:










Adding to this the fact that Dale measured within 2 dB at 18 Hz in his room compared to what he measured at 80 Hz BEFORE EQ was done tells us that something was ... unusual ... in the response curve as shown.


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## tcarcio

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

As usual a fantastic review Dale. Thanks for putting in the time to do it and although it is a hobby of yours it is still alot of work of which we all appreciate. Thanks again...:T


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## 86eldel68-deactivated

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



dduval said:


> Just makes my decision that I went with CHT products that much better.


I read your review over on the CHT forum - congrats on your new set-up! :T

I really like the song "Dreams I'll Never See", but after reading your recent experience with it, I'm going to have to sit down, maybe tonight, with a glass of Scotch and let it blow me away...


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## fanuminski

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Nice review and review format. 
Personally, at this time, I was a bit more interested in how the speakers reviewed.
How did you decide on the Sho-10 vs the Pro-10 speakers?
-M


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## engtaz

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

I love how more balanced the PRO 10's are over the SHO 10's. Vocals a little bit more forward on the SHO 10's


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## Sputter

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Nice work Dale. I found the graphs very informative.


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## Zeitgeist

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Thanks for the review. Nice to see some details and comments about the CHT offerings.


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## dduval

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



eljay said:


> I read your review over on the CHT forum - congrats on your new set-up! :T
> 
> I really like the song "Dreams I'll Never See", but after reading your recent experience with it, I'm going to have to sit down, maybe tonight, with a glass of Scotch and let it blow me away...


Yes, it's an awesome song, however it was Vodka and Tonic that worked for me...I will have to try it with Scotch...tonight. :T


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## LilGator

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



Dale Rasco said:


> Chu, wanted to put together another graph for the FR. These are three separate sweeps in two separate locations on two separate days. You can see that they are consistent with one another. As far as the rolloff goes, the measurements are what they are. I can't speak to how Chase captured the Frequency Response: 20Hz – 100Hz +/- 4 dB without any EQ being applied, but I can say that Chase does not make a claim on the site that those are ground plane results either.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as placement in my room goes, the measurements were taken from the listening position with both subs up front at a distance of 15 feet from the listening position. The room measures 15'X18'.


From the current specs (which, it should be noted, have been once changed already from +/-3dB):

_Frequency Response: 20Hz – 100Hz +/- 4 dB without any EQ being applied
In-room extension (room and placement dependent): 15Hz or lower_

Given that in-room is given as a separate spec (though ambiguous), it would seem to imply that the FR spec of +/-4dB 20Hz-100Hz is ground plane.

Chu noted that the sweep published in the review points toward +0,-17dB. Here are the three separate sweeps you posted with their comparable FR specs listed based on a pixel-analysis, underestimated in caution. If you can provide the exact data from REW for each 20Hz and 100Hz data point, we could have a decimal of precision I'm sure.










In any case, the average of three separate sweeps in two different locations on two different days points to +0,-18dB or to use Chase's preferred version of the spec: +/-9dB 20Hz to 100Hz. Since this vastly differs from +/-4dB as spec'd, there seems to be a serious issue here.


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## Chu Gai

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

I'm sure CHT will clear up the specification, how it was obtained, and contrast it with Dale's findings. I was a bit surprised that the products are now made from MDF rather than the Baltic Birch they previously used. I would imagine that contributes to the improved fit and finish.

Dale, will you also be measuring the speakers?


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## HuskerOmaha

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



Chu Gai said:


> I'm sure CHT will clear up the specification, how it was obtained, and contrast it with Dale's findings. I was a bit surprised that the products are now made from MDF rather than the Baltic Birch they previously used. I would imagine that contributes to the improved fit and finish.
> 
> Dale, will you also be measuring the speakers?


The cabinets have been remarkably improved. I was very impressed with them at the GTG I hosted in October 2011 when Craig drove out the new SHO-10s and the VS-18.1s...as were many attendees.

I'm also interested in the speaker measurements if Dale has time. I really enjoy the SHO-10 sound in my room. I have the older waveguide version, and wish I had the newer one. The variations seen at the LP when moving them from a 90 degree to the wall and screen to more of a crossed/angled in orientation are vastly different when measured....specifically the 14k-20k area.


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## LilGator

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

I actually own 4 CHT 18" sealed subs and a set of PRO-10s. This doesn't mean I'm not interested in seeing correct information make it's way to everyone. Why should it?

The measurement as reviewed is at odds with the manufacturer's spec. This is one issue.

A second is: as reviewed, -18dB at 20Hz ground plane is very poor for any high-end subwoofer, much less a vented unit tuned at or even below that point, no?

For example, the typical benchmark ported unit's (SVS PB13U) FR measured -6dB at 16Hz, maybe -1.5dB at 20Hz:










Even a max output sweep is roughly -4.5dB at 20Hz. -18dB at 20Hz is a serious hill to climb for those with larger rooms, and especially those without measurement knowledge, tools and EQ ability. Plug and play is crucial for many.


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## dguarnaccia

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Couple of dumb questions from someone in the cheap seats. 

That graph you posted Lilgator of the Pb13, that doesn't say it's a groundplane measurement. Can you link the source of that image? Comparing that to the outdoor measurement of the CH sub is apples and oranges isn't it?

The manufactured spec didn't specify the measurement outdoors, so I had assumed that measured it indoors. Are specs like that always done based on outdoor measurements? 

Sorry for the dumb questions, just wanted to be clear here.


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## Dale Rasco

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

There is a simple solution to all of this without calling anybody's intentions into question. I'll simply run a new set of measurements for RF using a different program such as XTZ. It will take a couple of days due to my work schedule but I think it could quite possibly shed some light on the issue. In the meantime if any of you wish to make statements such as *"there seems to be a serious issue here"* then maybe you should point that to me rather than Chase. There could have been any number of reasons for the readings I got for the RF and all I'm asking is for you to allow me to do some comparative analysis before making statements that could be construed as inflammatory. 

On another note, the PB-13 graph has no relevance in this thread except to serve as an illustration for the posters comments. He wasn't trying to compare subs but rather explain what he sees wrong with my RF measurement.


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## GranteedEV

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Dale.. it seems to be that your microphone somehow failed to capture the vent output on your sweeps (that, or the vent itself is compressing a lot earlier than anticipated... were you hearing chuffing?) That looks like pure driver output, rather than driver + vent output in phase. I can't imagine why this would be the case, though. Based on your test setup:










I would probably start by laying the microphone directly on the ground rather than using the stand.


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## dguarnaccia

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

FYI Dale, the XTZ tool only goes down to 16hz, iirc unless they've improved the new mic in the latest release. 

In all seriouslyness, I was asking a legitimate question. When manufactures list their FR, is that always done based on outdoor measurements? I'd like like to know for my own edification.


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## Dale Rasco

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



GranteedEV said:


> Dale.. it seems to be that your microphone somehow failed to capture the vent output on your sweeps. That looks like pure driver output, rather than driver + vent output. I can't imagine why this would be the case, though. Based on your test setup:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would probably start by laying the microphone directly on the ground rather than using the stand.



I did actually have it on the ground during the FR sweeps


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## craigsub

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Dale - It would be informative to take the raw in room response curve and match it to what you measured outdoors. There was no EQ being applied in that in room response curve.

If one looks at the "outdoor curve", then the "indoor curve", the indoor curve shows about 17 dB of room gain at 20 Hz and about 28 dB of room gain at 17/18 Hz.

We can start there - Room gain of 17 dB at 20 Hz and 28 dB at 17/18 Hz did not happen here. 

Next - look at the response above 50 Hz in the outdoor curves vs the indoor curved. The indoor curves look as REW normally would - note the lack of the sharp lines that the outdoor curves have. Those sharp lines won't be in a normal REW response measurement.


----------



## craigsub

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



dguarnaccia said:


> FYI Dale, the XTZ tool only goes down to 16hz, iirc unless they've improved the new mic in the latest release.
> 
> In all seriouslyness, I was asking a legitimate question. When manufactures list their FR, is that always done based on outdoor measurements? I'd like like to know for my own edification.


It typically is an outdoor measurement, and in our case, it was.


----------



## LilGator

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



dguarnaccia said:


> Couple of dumb questions from someone in the cheap seats.
> 
> That graph you posted Lilgator of the Pb13, that doesn't say it's a groundplane measurement. Can you link the source of that image? Comparing that to the outdoor measurement of the CH sub is apples and oranges isn't it?
> 
> The manufactured spec didn't specify the measurement outdoors, so I had assumed that measured it indoors. Are specs like that always done based on outdoor measurements?
> 
> Sorry for the dumb questions, just wanted to be clear here.


No dumb questions here, both are fair! The graph of the PB13 used for illustration is indeed outdoor, here is the source from HTShack actually 

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/8150-svs-pb13-ultra-20-hz-tune.html

That type of spec on a subwoofer, +/-XdB 20-100Hz or similar is typically outdoors, yes. Off the top of my head I don't know of other manufacturers who spec indoor instead of outdoor, and the reason there is fairly simple: who's room do you measure and define the spec in?



Dale Rasco said:


> Wow, everyone needs to stop and take a deep breath... Ahhhhh, now doesn't that feel better? There is a simple solution to all of this without calling anybody's intentions into question. I'll simply run a new set of measurements for RF using a different program such as XTZ. It will take a couple of days due to my work schedule but I think it could quite possibly shed some light on the issue. In the meantime if any of you wish to make statements such as *"there seems to be a serious issue here"* then maybe you should point that to me rather than Chase. There could have been any number of reasons for the readings I got for the RF and all I'm asking is for you to allow me to do some comparative analysis before making statements that could be construed as inflammatory. Play nice kids...
> 
> On another note, the PB-13 graph has no relevance in this thread except to serve as an illustration for the posters comments. He wasn't trying to compare subs but rather explain what he sees wrong with my RF measurement.


No real implications with the statement I made, a discrepancy that large is serious- but I'm sure it will get figured out easily no matter where the fault lies.

The PB-13 graph is a simple reality check to a baseline vented sub that has been around for many years. To compare it to any new vented unit on the market is pretty standard.


----------



## Chu Gai

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

But room gain is a variable commodity, no Craig? IIRC, when Atkinson of StereoPhile does measurements in a room, he close mic's below a certain frequency and then splices it to his other results. For the purpose of clarification, Craig, you're saying that the FR specification of the tested sub that you publish was obtained using outdoor measurements, yes?


----------



## craigsub

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Chu Gai - 28 dB of gain at 18 Hz would occur in a room with its largest dimension being about 7 Feet.


----------



## LilGator

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



craigsub said:


> If one looks at the "outdoor curve", then the "indoor curve", the indoor curve shows about 17 dB of room gain at 20 Hz and about 28 dB of room gain at 17/18 Hz.
> 
> We can start there - Room gain of 17 dB at 20 Hz and 28 dB at 17/18 Hz did not happen here.


To be completely accurate using this train of thought, you actually need to account for the 80Hz LPF (Dale, is this correct?) used on the in-room graph, and not used on the outdoor graph (full range).

When you align with this accounted, the gain is roughly 10-11dB at 20Hz. Still impressive if true.

What's also curious is the majority of EQ used was to boost under 20Hz. For example, 10Hz is boosted at least 12dB. As under tune is primarily distortion, I wonder why this would be desirable?

Vented subs use protection in the form of a high pass filter just below tune typically, and it seems not only is that not the case here, it's actually boosted below tune?

Is that a manufacturer recommendation? Is running the vented unit without protection a manufacturer recommendation?

With the stock filter in the Dayton amp being a 20Hz HPF, is that recommended since the unit is tuned below that point?


----------



## craigsub

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



LilGator said:


> To be completely accurate using this train of thought, you actually need to account for the 80Hz LPF (Dale, is this correct?) used on the in-room graph, and not used on the outdoor graph (full range).
> 
> When you align with this accounted, the gain is roughly 10-11dB at 20Hz. Still impressive if true.
> 
> What's also curious is the majority of EQ used was to boost under 20Hz. For example, 10Hz is boosted at least 12dB. As under tune is primarily distortion, I wonder why this would be desirable?
> 
> Vented subs use protection in the form of a high pass filter just below tune typically, and it seems not only is that not the case here, it's actually boosted below tune?
> 
> Is that a manufacturer recommendation? Is running the vented unit without protection a manufacturer recommendation?
> 
> With the stock filter in the Dayton amp being a 20Hz HPF, is that recommended since the unit is tuned below that point?


Matt - The 18 Hz subsonic filter is switchable for a reason: flexibility for the consumer. With a 16 Hz native tune, one can apply enough power to deliver 105 dB at 20 Hz outdoors wthout bottoming the unit at 10 Hz even without the filter engaged. Depending on an individual's listening preferences, one can use the HPF at one's own discretion. 

Our VS-18.1's are also available as passive units, should someone wish to use multiples with a Pro-Amp and something like the Anti-Mode or other subwoofer EQ's. Our normal customers appreciate the flexibility we offer. 

You have asked a lot of questions. Here is one for you: Can you find a properly done REW response curve that resembles the curve as posted as the response curve as shown here?


----------



## Chu Gai

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



craigsub said:


> Chu Gai - 28 dB of gain at 18 Hz would occur in a room with its largest dimension being about 7 Feet.


I think we both agree that gain is room dependent but I was more interested in a response to my last statement above which was,



> For the purpose of clarification, Craig, you're saying that the FR specification of the tested sub that you publish was obtained using outdoor measurements, yes?


----------



## craigsub

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



Chu Gai said:


> I think we both agree that gain is room dependent but I was more interested in a response to my last statement above which was,


Room gain is a function of the size of the room.

I posted the outdoor measurement this morning, in post 34.


----------



## craigsub

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

To those reading - Dale and I talked on the phone tonight. He looked at several "properly done" REW graphs with me, including his in room response curves, against the outdoor response curves.

He has a pretty good feel that the outdoor response curve was not right. The notch at 18 Hz would not be there, nor the "hand saw" look of the response above 50 Hz. The outdoor response curve had the subwoofer delivering more SPL in the 40-60 Hz range than the max output sinewaves did, while the 20 Hz was 5 dB below the max output. 

We talked about some ideas to do some additional response curve measurements, which he will do when he has the time.


----------



## Sonnie

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

This is our first detailed testing of a sub since the Ilkka days. We thought we had it right and thought we had enough eyes looking at everything to make sure it was correct, but we obviously missed it, including me. We are human after all... I think! Yes, we do make mistakes... but not many! :whistling:

We are going to research this very closely and make sure we get it right whatever it takes. It is our full intentions to do many more sub tests in the very near future, so we need to and will get it right. We apologize for any confusion we may have caused.

Those questioning the measured response, please allow us time to make sure we got it right before getting too excited about potential errors on the manufacturers part. It may take a few days, so please be patient.


----------



## LilGator

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



craigsub said:


> Matt - The 18 Hz subsonic filter is switchable for a reason: flexibility for the consumer. With a 16 Hz native tune, one can apply enough power to deliver 105 dB at 20 Hz outdoors wthout bottoming the unit at 10 Hz even without the filter engaged. Depending on an individual's listening preferences, one can use the HPF at one's own discretion.


Craig, running with a manufacturer spec can be misleading. Measuring the effect of this HPF on my Dayton SA-1000, you find the -3dB point yielding precisely an effective 19.68Hz filter. The higher this filter slides up, the more your output is hurt where you don't want it touched.

Enabled, this filter is cutting -6.8dB at your tuning point of 16Hz.










I can't see any situation where you would want to cut your vented sub's tuning point output by over _half_.



craigsub said:


> Our VS-18.1's are also available as passive units, should someone wish to use multiples with a Pro-Amp and something like the Anti-Mode or other subwoofer EQ's. Our normal customers appreciate the flexibility we offer.


Understood- flexibility is good. This option is the advanced user route. Bring your own amp and EQ.

The route average joe will take is as reviewed. If it's not ready to go out of the box, what does it take to get that way? What is the standard, correct initial setup of the VS-18.1 for those without measurement or EQ ability?

When implying that I am an abnormal customer- could you elaborate on the meaning behind that thought?



craigsub said:


> Can you find a properly done REW response curve that resembles the curve as posted as the response curve as shown here?


Can you rephrase this? I'm having a difficult time interpreting.


----------



## craigsub

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Matt - It is a simple question. Look at the response curve on which you are so focused. Now look at the "hand saw" look above 50 Hz. Please find a properly done REW response curve that resembles these curves. 

I had a nice conversation with Dale, and he knows what to look for when running a response curve. Give the man time to work the measurements again. He has a full time job, and is working his tail off getting this right. I appreciate his efforts. 

I did not imply anything about you. When I stated normal customers, it was in regards to normal people who want to get the most out of his subwoofer budget for his room. We have hundreds of people, from newbies to experienced subwoofer owners who love our products. 

Each of our customers has my toll free number. We can discuss the strenghts and weaknesses of the Dayton amp with each of our customers based on his/her needs. This includes the use of the subsonic filter, when/if needed. This will also include a recommendation of pro audio amps when needed, and outboard eq as well.

There is no one "single solution" that works across the board. Our subwoofer lineup offers tremendous value and flexibility. I talk to 3 to 5 people each day about subwoofer systems that we offer, and how to make them work in a real system.

That is the BEST part of this business.


----------



## Chu Gai

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Thanks Craig. It'll be interesting to see what Dale finds and what the procedural differences were.


----------



## LilGator

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



craigsub said:


> Matt - It is a simple question. Look at the response curve on which you are so focused. Now look at the "hand saw" look above 50 Hz. Please find a properly done REW response curve that resembles these curves.


No problem Craig, if the "hand saw" is what you are looking for- this isn't difficult to find at all.

Here's a graph of a vented sub measured by Ricci. It is a great example of this effect as Josh demonstrates a 1w1m response overlaid with the smoother 100w10m response. Nothing changed here but power input and distance:










On his base response graph, you can see the "hand saw" as well as a blip around 15Hz. Neither of these point to an incorrectly done measurement on their own, unless you take issue with Josh's tests?












craigsub said:


> I had a nice conversation with Dale, and he knows what to look for when running a response curve. Give the man time to work the measurements again. He has a full time job, and is working his tail off getting this right. I appreciate his efforts.


If you notice, my last two posts did not bring up the outdoor graph at all.



craigsub said:


> Each of our customers has my toll free number. We can discuss the strenghts and weaknesses of the Dayton amp with each of our customers based on his/her needs. This includes the use of the subsonic filter, when/if needed. This will also include a recommendation of pro audio amps when needed, and outboard eq as well.
> 
> There is no one "single solution" that works across the board. Our subwoofer lineup offers tremendous value and flexibility. I talk to 3 to 5 people each day about subwoofer systems that we offer, and how to make them work in a real system.
> 
> That is the BEST part of this business.


Let's run with this. You sell the VS-18.1 as a package with the Dayton amp, this is the primary solution you offer and is as reviewed. Two simple questions:

*1)* For those that prefer to protect their driver and filter unusable output (what you refer to as "use of the subsonic filter, when/if needed"): *In what individual situation is it preferred to cut your vented subwoofer's output at tune down by over half (-6.8dB)*?

*2)* Can you give either an example of another commercial powered subwoofer that filters above tune, or an example of one that is recommended to run without a HPF?


----------



## dsully444

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Is there a chance that Dale will take a look at the 18.2 dual front facing when they are complete? I curious to the differences between the dual sealed and the single vented in similar sized boxes. I know this having two 18.2 with 4 total woofers blasting away sure would look great under neath a projection screen.


----------



## craigsub

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



LilGator said:


> No problem Craig, if the "hand saw" is what you are looking for- this isn't difficult to find at all.
> 
> Here's a graph of a vented sub measured by Ricci. It is a great example of this effect as Josh demonstrates a 1w1m response overlaid with the smoother 100w10m response. Nothing changed here but power input and distance:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On his base response graph, you can see the "hand saw" as well as a blip around 15Hz. Neither of these point to an incorrectly done measurement on their own, unless you take issue with Josh's tests?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you notice, my last two posts did not bring up the outdoor graph at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's run with this. You sell the VS-18.1 as a package with the Dayton amp, this is the primary solution you offer and is as reviewed. Two simple questions:
> 
> *1)* For those that prefer to protect their driver and filter unusable output (what you refer to as "use of the subsonic filter, when/if needed"): *In what individual situation is it preferred to cut your vented subwoofer's output at tune down by over half (-6.8dB)*?
> 
> *2)* Can you give either an example of another commercial powered subwoofer that filters above tune, or an example of one that is recommended to run without a HPF?



Matt - The graph you posted is not even close to the same graph that Dale got. 

The rest of your questions are so inaccurately phrased that they are not worth a response. Our customers can reach me for an individual talk based on his or her needs.


----------



## LilGator

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



craigsub said:


> Matt - The graph you posted is not even close to the same graph that Dale got.
> 
> The rest of your questions are so inaccurately phrased that they are not worth a response. Our customers can reach me for an individual talk based on his or her needs.


Sounds like you don't want to answer my simple question. I'll rephrase yet simpler:

1) In what individual situation is it preferred to set your filter above the tuning point?

2) Do you have an example of another commercial powered subwoofer that does this, or an example of one that is recommended to run without a filter?

You asked me to find a properly done REW graph showing a similar "hand-saw" effect. I provided this.

Explain how this "hand-saw" is different from the one Dale's graph has. Better yet, why you take issue with the "hand-saw".


----------



## Chu Gai

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Why does one sometimes see a handsaw and sometimes not?


----------



## Sonnie

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Guys... I asked politely for you two to hold off on your questions regarding the graphs until we made sure we have the right measurement graphs and you have completely ignored me. This is disrespectful. 

I think we are all beginning to see the irony here. One of you have been a member here for over a year... the other over two years. You have very few posts between the two of you and you obviously don't care much for our forum since you have hardly participated since registering. Your tone and attitude, not only in this thread, but others as well (here and in other forums - others can clearly see for themselves) is that of immaturity and provocation. You are very well known to troll craigsub in various forums. I realize we sent out an email and that is what prompted your visit and posts, along with the fact it has something to do with Chase Home Theater and you could not resist the troll, but this is where it ends for you two. Here and now! If you want to discuss something with Craig or ask questions about Chase Home Theater, you'll have to do so directly with him, as he has offered to do so by phone... or in some other forum that allows such nonsense. Bye-bye now... :wave:


----------



## ALMFamily

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Thank you Sonnie - and now back to the good stuff!

Looking forward to seeing the update - thanks again Dale and Craig! :bigsmile:


----------



## Dale Rasco

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Hey guys, it may take a day or two to get it done and posted depending on when I get out of the office today, but it is number one on the priority list and will be coming yalls way directly! Thanks everyone for your patience as well.


----------



## ALMFamily

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



Dale Rasco said:


> Hey guys, it may take a day or two to get it done and posted depending on when I get out of the office today, but it is number one on the priority list and will be coming yalls way directly! Thanks everyone for your patience as well.


No worries Dale - we all know you will get it done as soon as you possibly can. Cheers!


----------



## dduval

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

So continuing on...

After replacing my Axiom VP150 center speaker with a SHO-10 I have come to the conclusion I will be replacing my mains (Axiom M80's) with SHO-10's. 
I might try them first as wides or I may just use my M80's as wides and the SHO-10's as mains, either way I think it will be awesome! Especially after re-reading this review...


----------



## sbdman

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Dale,

Please take your time - lots of equipment to drag around, and that "gynormous" sub is not an easy dead lift. This should be fun, and a learning experience, and not get into the I have to do this because...

If I was close by, I'd really enjoy helping out, but even with REW, my results are questionable. Shame this stuff is not cut and dry without the unusual things happening. All your other graphs and subjective observations are spot on from what I experience with my CS-18.2.

Just keep your priorities straight! And thanks for the continued efforts! :T

Sorry to hear some people getting banned, but it seems a lot calmer around here (I'm breathing easier now). I think anyone that has some interest in the review whose motive is constructive would be more than welcome by everyone.


----------



## DeeJayBump

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Looking forward to the updated measurements. Thanks for the Review so far, Dale.

I apologize for my earlier (now deleted) post in this thread.


----------



## engtaz

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Thank you Sonnie. 1 of the many reasons I like this site is that fact that Trolls are handled quickly. If 2 or more people have a problem, take it to PM's or like the Poster said "call me". Trashing up insightful threads is a big turn off and ruins the discussion.


----------



## chashint

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

The bickering does get tiresome very quickly.
Dale said early on (and I agree) the measurements / graphs are what they are.
It is important to both consumers and manufacturers that every effort be made to get accurate review data.
CHT has politely questioned the measurements, Dale and Sonnie have politely acknowledged there *may* be an issue and have stated the test will be repeated.
Give it a rest already.
If the test data disappears from the site or nothing has been done in a month then it may be time to charge the hill; until then sit back and enjoy your favorite beverage... maybe even watch a flick or listen to some music.


----------



## pbc

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Dale - can you double check your in-room measurements as well when you get the chance (not sure if you were just checking the outdoor ones)? I think I read the VS18.1 is a vented woofer tuned to 20hz IIRC. To be only down 5db at 8 or 9hz doesn't sound plausible to me? I.e., assuming the vented woofer rolls off at 4th order starting at its tuning point of 20hz (or maybe 15hz ... can't recall which it was), the amount of room gain you'd need to be flat more than a few db below that would be astounding. I'm guessing maybe you're encountering a noise floor which is making it look like it's flatter to well below what it should be. Might be worth running a few sweeps at much higher levels to see if that is the case?

If the tuning is 15hz, then it is a bit more plausible, but if the tuning is 20hz and you're getting that kind of room gain to only be -5db at 8 or 9 hz, you'll want to study that room, blue print the designs for it, and sell it online! 

BTW, what's the difference between the IBF-EMM-8 mic and say the Cross Spectrum Labs calibrated EMM-8? Are they both essentially the same microphone but calibrated by different organizations? I.e., do you receive a microphone calibration file to upload into REW with the IBF-EMM-8 as well?


----------



## pbc

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Oh .. and I like how the SHO's look with the grill, though they probably still wouldn't pass the WAF family room test. Has the grill always been an option on them?


----------



## madpoet

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

I believe the Shos always had the grill. The early Pros did not.


----------



## Rijax

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

The cloth grilles are standard with the current, 2012 version of both the PROs and SHOs. Earlier versions had optional metal mesh grilles. You could buy them with or without.


----------



## pbc

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Thanks, for some reason I don't recall seeing any pictures of either with fabric grills. But haven't looked in quite a while. 

One thing that I always find with high efficiency monitors is that it's tough to find ones that have a decent WAF to them. Most are the "boxy" kind.


----------



## tcarcio

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



pbc said:


> Thanks, for some reason I don't recall seeing any pictures of either with fabric grills. But haven't looked in quite a while.
> 
> One thing that I always find with high efficiency monitors is that it's tough to find ones that have a decent WAF to them. Most are the "boxy" kind.


I just got 2 pro10's and a Sho10 and the cloth grills are built like tanks. The frames are very sturdy and they look great.


----------



## Rijax

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



pbc said:


> Thanks, for some reason I don't recall seeing any pictures of either with fabric grills. But haven't looked in quite a while.
> 
> One thing that I always find with high efficiency monitors is that it's tough to find ones that have a decent WAF to them. Most are the "boxy" kind.



















I think high efficiency monitors end up being kinda boxy because they use large woofers.


----------



## Sputter

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

One thing is that they seem to match the subs, so that is plus if you like the look.


----------



## spurdarren

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

I actually really like the look of the VS18.1's and the Sho10's . I have a Klipsch Reference system and the 18.1's don't match the speakers but the dont look out of place either. They have a very neutral look to them.


----------



## dduval

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

I agree Darren. My sho-10 center and dual ss-18's blend right in with my cherry color axioms. The wife actually said they fit right in just fine. It kinda worked out good for me anyway since all my axioms have black grills which are almost the same shade of black as my CHT speakers.


----------



## dguarnaccia

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

I really enjoy my Sho10's as surrounds. When I got them originally, I put them side by side with my Gedlee Abbey's and while they weren't quite as good, they were close. Uncomfortable close, given the Abbey's at the time were 5 times more expensive. 

They are an amazing value at 3x the price.


----------



## engtaz

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Try listening to 2 channel with the PRO10's. You will be blown away if matched to SS18.1's in 2 ch mode. Setup seamlessly, you will be on cloud 9.


----------



## madpoet

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

I'm looking forward to hearing the Sho10s now. When I had them last there were some issues that I know Craig has since straightened out. So I'm hoping for an easy and seemless integration.


----------



## MUCHO

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Nice review. I haven't bought any new gear for almost 5 years for a variety of reasons but this setup looks right up my alley.


----------



## engtaz

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



madpoet said:


> I believe the Shos always had the grill. The early Pros did not.


Early PRO10's did have grills if you were willing to wait for them. The grills are fantastic and very thickly built and therefore very sturdy. It was such a pleasure seeing wooden grills on speakers again. These grills have some weight to them so you don't have to worry about them breaking easily.


----------



## madpoet

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

Ahhh... well, clearly I wasn't


----------



## utahsavages

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*

I've got a Pro/Sho L/C/R setup in both my family room and theater room. They are last years models with the satin black finish and the metal grills. The looks fit perfectly into the theater room. When the projector is on, and the lights go off, I can't see them - which is exactly what I wanted. My previous speakers (rosewood Rocket 850's) used to light up from the screen reflection. 

My wife wasn't that crazy about the looks of them in the family room - until she heard them. They replaced some Piano Rosewood Strata Mini's that are drop dead gorgeous. It's not that they look bad - it's that they weren't designed to be visual works of art. 

These things beg you to play them at reference levels. I'm really, really happy with them.


----------



## DeeJayBump

^

Kinda fitting with your avatar that that was your 11th post.


----------



## lsiberian

It's nice to see a quality sub designer put his products to market. So many great subs are being made thanks the DIY community and people like Craig. We truly are innovating this industry. Keep up the good work and keep improving the products.


----------



## craigsub

Isiberian - Thanks for the kind comment. You reminded me of the meeting my brother and I had two years ago about our design process and thinking for the PRO/SHO-10's and what was then just the sealed subs:

We wanted to be a place where the guy who wanted to DIY, but who didn't have the time, skills, tools, etc ... to do DIY could go to get a completed product for a good value.

Look at the SHO-10 itself - the parts included in one would be about $225 not including cabinet and grill.

Our next run of SHO-10's will be "grill optional", and will sell for $375 (including shipping), with the option of adding a metal grill for another $25. Can a guy build the cabinet for $125 with the type of fit and finish we offer? 

For the VS-18.1 - the "MAP" pricing on the Eminence 18 inch driver we use would be $350 (if we were allowed to sell it as a raw driver). 

The next run of VS-18.1's will see a price of $845 including shipping plus an additional $40 for a grill. 

I am quoting "next run" because our pricing from our OEM's has increased a bit, our current pricing includes a grill.

Back to the thought process - take a $350 driver and then try to build a 40x22x22 inch cabinet with 2 inch thick front baffle, a properly done slot vent, bracing, finish, polyfill ... and come in at $675 would be a daunting task for many.

We are soon going to have a completely bullet proof stand alone amp for the VS-18.1's ... yesterday I ran a pair in our 4800 cubic foot theater room (and open into a 6000 cubic foot room). At the main seat, with the new amp, we got basically a flat response curve (+/- 3 dB) from 14 Hz and up in room using Audyssey only.

For under $2000 delivered, this VS-18.1 package will deliver over 111 dB at 2 meters outdoors at 20 Hz using Sinewaves (and keeping THD at 10%).

We hope that's a good value for a "turn key" system.

Here is a link to the thread showing a response curve at 8 locations in our theater from the VS-18.1 pair:

http://www.chasehometheater.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4999

I hope all this rambling made sense ... :bigsmile:


----------



## Sputter

craigsub said:


> Isiberian - Thanks for the kind comment. You reminded me of the meeting my brother and I had two years ago about our design process and thinking for the PRO/SHO-10's and what was then just the sealed subs:
> 
> We wanted to be a place where the guy who wanted to DIY, but who didn't have the time, skills, tools, etc ... to do DIY could go to get a completed product for a good value.
> 
> Look at the SHO-10 itself - the parts included in one would be about $225 not including cabinet and grill.
> 
> Our next run of SHO-10's will be "grill optional", and will sell for $375 (including shipping), with the option of adding a metal grill for another $25. Can a guy build the cabinet for $125 with the type of fit and finish we offer?
> 
> For the VS-18.1 - the "MAP" pricing on the Eminence 18 inch driver we use would be $350 (if we were allowed to sell it as a raw driver).
> 
> The next run of VS-18.1's will see a price of $845 including shipping plus an additional $40 for a grill.
> 
> I am quoting "next run" because our pricing from our OEM's has increased a bit, our current pricing includes a grill.
> 
> Back to the thought process - take a $350 driver and then try to build a 40x22x22 inch cabinet with 2 inch thick front baffle, a properly done slot vent, bracing, finish, polyfill ... and come in at $675 would be a daunting task for many.
> 
> We are soon going to have a completely bullet proof stand alone amp for the VS-18.1's ... yesterday I ran a pair in our 4800 cubic foot theater room (and open into a 6000 cubic foot room). At the main seat, with the new amp, we got basically a flat response curve (+/- 3 dB) from 14 Hz and up in room using Audyssey only.
> 
> For under $2000 delivered, this VS-18.1 package will deliver over 111 dB at 2 meters outdoors at 20 Hz using Sinewaves (and keeping THD at 10%).
> 
> We hope that's a good value for a "turn key" system.
> 
> Here is a link to the thread showing a response curve at 8 locations in our theater from the VS-18.1 pair:
> 
> http://www.chasehometheater.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4999
> 
> I hope all this rambling made sense ... :bigsmile:


Are the graphs smoothed and at what resolution were they made? What did the graphs look like with no EQ?


----------



## craigsub

Hi all - Part of our goal at CHT is to help make it easier to get great bass in your theater. For those of you who do not want to order any of the DSP devices on the market to EQ a subwoofer, we have found that Audyssey works quite well with our subwoofers, and is very easy to use.

Most of the "outboard" eq devices require an interface with a computer, and are not the easiest units to use when trying to get a flat response curve.

We have several forum members who have used Audyssey, and gotten great results. Typically, we are seeing flat response curves to 15 Hz or better, with some well below 10 Hz. While this is room and subwoofer dependent, we have yet to see a "bad" result.

The best part - you don't need to be a "subwoofer geek" to get a great response curve.

We have started a thread with links to written and video tutorials - you can find it here:

How To Use Audyssey

With Audyssey receivers available using "XT" technology available for around $300 street price, this has become a very affordable way to get great bass in your room.


----------



## Dale Rasco

Hey guys, I finally added the frequency response below. It was the first chance I had to recreate the conditions that were present during the earlier sweep. As you can see, the results are much more in line than the previous fiasco. I found two things wrong with my setup on the previous sweep.


I actually measured it after I took the max output readings and the sub was distorting.
My mic placement did not correctly account for the port measurement.

Sorry guys, this is a learning process but it's coming together with some help. Thanks J.R.


----------



## Sonnie

Testing


----------



## craigsub

Dale - Thank you for the followup.

Let's discuss the questioned posed by Sputter about the measurements to which I linked earlier. We tend to hear bass in no finer resolution than 1/6th octave wide increments. The measurements are done with 1/6th smoothing engaged on the OmniMic program.

If we were to look at a graph with 1/24th octave smoothing, we would get this:










Instead of +/- 3 dB from 14 Hz and up to the 80 Hz crossover, we get +/- 4.5 dB from 13 Hz and up to the crossover. 

This is still an excellent response curve, and a conversation about the merits of both 1/6th octave and 1/24th octave measurements would be lengthy and stimulating. 

Here is the pair of subs in our theater with no eq applied at all (1/6th smoothing):










I have not run the 1/24th octave sweep with no eq yet - I was just informed that the testing was interfering with our 9th grader's attempt at finishing Algebra. :huh:


----------



## chashint

Craig,
Are you satisfied that the last three graphs Dale posted accurately represent the frequency response of the sub?


----------



## craigsub

Chas - Dale posted one here tonight, which matches pretty well with our 20-100 Hz spec. The other two were taken in our theater room in an exercize to show how easily one can get a relatively flat response using just Audyssey Multi EQ XT.


----------



## ALMFamily

XT or XT32 Craig?


----------



## Dale Rasco

Audyssey XT


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks Dale! :T


----------



## craigsub

Dale is well on his way to becoming an excellent "go to" place for home theater reviews - his willingness to add extensive listening to the measurements adds a lot to the value of his tests.

You guys can count on CHT having some more subwoofers and speakers in Dale's hands later in 2012. 

And who knows - maybe another giveaway next winter. :sn:


----------



## MikeBiker

craigsub said:


> Dale is well on his way to becoming an excellent "go to" place for home theater reviews - his willingness to add extensive listening to the measurements adds a lot to the value of his tests.
> 
> You guys can count on CHT having some more subwoofers and speakers in Dale's hands later in 2012.
> 
> And who knows - maybe another giveaway next winter. :sn:


Wait, what happened to the spring, summer and fall giveaways?:foottap:


----------



## craigsub

MikeBiker said:


> Wait, what happened to the spring, summer and fall giveaways?:foottap:


There are 17 other sponsors here just in the banner ads alone. We all have to take our turns. I don't want to hog the stage.


----------



## pbc

Dale Rasco said:


> Hey guys, I finally added the frequency response below. It was the first chance I had to recreate the conditions that were present during the earlier sweep. As you can see, the results are much more in line than the previous fiasco. I found two things wrong with my setup on the previous sweep.
> 
> 
> I actually measured it after I took the max output readings and the sub was distorting.
> My mic placement did not correctly account for the port measurement.
> 
> Sorry guys, this is a learning process but it's coming together with some help. Thanks J.R.


Now this looks like a sweep of a ported sub tuned to 22 "ish" hz. Easy to also see the steep 4th order roll off below tuning. Makes a lot more sense now! Good stuff Dale. 

So the inroom graph is the only other one that looks odd given it's mathematically impossible for this sub (or any ported sub tuned to 20hz or higher) to not be way down by the time it hits 10/12hz or so, let alone 8hz. Unless the room is a closet! But if that were the case the FR around tuning would likely also have an enormous spike. 

I'm guessing the noise floor must be interfering with the results in-room? What "EQ" was used for the sub in-room? Something just looks odd with those graphs. Looking at the inroom pre EQ and inroom post EQ results, it appears there is a ton of EQ applied below tuning, e.g. 11db of EQ applied at 12hz alone!?

BTW, nice to have another guy willing to lug a subwoofer outdoors along with testing gear and appropriate power to run measurement sweeps. :clap: To hell with the passerby's who probably think you're some sort of lunatic. :heehee:


----------



## ratm

Great review. If only I had more room


----------



## craigsub

pbc said:


> Now this looks like a sweep of a ported sub tuned to 22 "ish" hz. Easy to also see the steep 4th order roll off below tuning. Makes a lot more sense now! Good stuff Dale.
> 
> So the inroom graph is the only other one that looks odd given it's mathematically impossible for this sub (or any ported sub tuned to 20hz or higher) to not be way down by the time it hits 10/12hz or so, let alone 8hz. Unless the room is a closet! But if that were the case the FR around tuning would likely also have an enormous spike.
> 
> I'm guessing the noise floor must be interfering with the results in-room? What "EQ" was used for the sub in-room? Something just looks odd with those graphs. Looking at the inroom pre EQ and inroom post EQ results, it appears there is a ton of EQ applied below tuning, e.g. 11db of EQ applied at 12hz alone!?
> 
> BTW, nice to have another guy willing to lug a subwoofer outdoors along with testing gear and appropriate power to run measurement sweeps. :clap: To hell with the passerby's who probably think you're some sort of lunatic. :heehee:


Dale started this sweep at 18 Hz, and the tuning point on the subwoofer is appx. 16-17 Hz. Apollonio measured it at appx. 16, and my units here are both in the 16.3 Hz range.

Your guess about the noise floor would be incorrect - I make sure the furnace, projector and any other noise making devices are turned off. 

With enough power sent to a single VS-18.1 to deliver 102 dB at 20 Hz (2 meters outdoors), we don't hit X-Max below the tuning point until 11 Hz. 

Dale got exceptional results in his room, although in reality, at higher levels, one would see his response curve start to drop off at higher frequencies. 

A VS-18.1 as a single unit or duals is designed to give high levels of SPL from 15 Hz and up in even larger theater rooms. 

For those who want single digit bass with no worries about a subwoofer's tuning, we offer our SS-18.1 for $450 per cabinet - with each cabinet coming complete with our 18 inch driver. 

MKTheater has achieved 7 Hz bass in his room for under $5000 including 8 of our drivers, amplification and eq.

He can confirm this, but I do believe this 7 Hz bass is at or above reference levels as well.


----------



## pbc

craigsub said:


> Dale started this sweep at 18 Hz, and the tuning point on the subwoofer is appx. 16-17 Hz. Apollonio measured it at appx. 16, and my units here are both in the 16.3 Hz range.


Dale's graph seems to roll off sharply at about 22hz or so (and is impressivly flat from 22hz out to what looks like 150hz which IMO is awesome ... too many subs are flat to 20hz but roll off approaching 100hz or lower making them only useful to people who cross at 80hz or so), which was why I thought the tuning on the sub would be in that range vs 16hz. So the subs are tuned to 16hz and the graph is showing what it is because the sweep started at 18hz?



craigsub said:


> Your guess about the noise floor would be incorrect - I make sure the furnace, projector and any other noise making devices are turned off.
> 
> With enough power sent to a single VS-18.1 to deliver 102 dB at 20 Hz (2 meters outdoors), we don't hit X-Max below the tuning point until 11 Hz.
> 
> Dale got exceptional results in his room, although in reality, at higher levels, one would see his response curve start to drop off at higher frequencies.
> 
> A VS-18.1 as a single unit or duals is designed to give high levels of SPL from 15 Hz and up in even larger theater rooms.


Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to your inroom graphs on the noise floor. Was discussing Dale's in-room sweep which seem to imply one could acheive 7 or 8hz extension on the ported sub which seemed to roll off sharply at 20hz on his frequency sweep, so was wondering if the noise floor was interfering with the mic, or if something else was going on, that's all. 



craigsub said:


> For those who want single digit bass with no worries about a subwoofer's tuning, we offer our SS-18.1 for $450 per cabinet - with each cabinet coming complete with our 18 inch driver.
> 
> MKTheater has achieved 7 Hz bass in his room for under $5000 including 8 of our drivers, amplification and eq.
> 
> He can confirm this, but I do believe this 7 Hz bass is at or above reference levels as well.


James has a room that is the envy of many! Multiple sealed subs are certainly the way to go to get that kind of extension.


----------



## Sonnie

We have five subs to do testing on. Dale is going to go back and run the sweeps from 0Hz to 400Hz and use our standard graph of 45db - 105db from 15Hz to 200Hz with a logarithmic scale. I say "our standard" since it is what we have recommended for looking at sub response in REW since we started the forum. I think this will show us a little more detail on the testing. If he does any "in-room" responses then he could extend it to 10Hz to see what the room gain is doing.


Craig... 

Does Audyssey do all of the equalization on these graphs you are showing or are you boosting any frequencies with the amps?


----------



## mktheater

I believe the frequency could be flat to 8hz in Dale's case but the question is at what THD will it be because now we are well under tune so THD rises fast. What I find interesting is that this THD adds to the feel of the bass and some subs sound good delivering high THD and others sound bad. Although having high THD is not accurate it sometimes is preferred. I am becoming a GRAPH nut so I need flat and low THD even if it does not sound better during a movie. My guess would be the higher up the response the THD goes the worse it will sound due to the audible range.


----------



## craigsub

Sonnie - The only EQ being used in the sweeps was that in the Denon receiver (Multi EQ-XT).


----------



## pbc

mktheater said:


> I believe the frequency could be flat to 8hz in Dale's case but the question is at what THD will it be because now we are well under tune so THD rises fast. What I find interesting is that this THD adds to the feel of the bass and some subs sound good delivering high THD and others sound bad. Although having high THD is not accurate it sometimes is preferred. I am becoming a GRAPH nut so I need flat and low THD even if it does not sound better during a movie. My guess would be the higher up the response the THD goes the worse it will sound due to the audible range.


Interesting point and one that I forgot re: ported subs. I recall before buying the PB13 Ultra back in 07 I owned a Mirage Omni subwoofer (dual opposed 8" ported sub). When I got my PB13 I thought something was lacking at first as I didn't "hear" what I used to with some scenes low, which was likely just distortion as obviously the smallish dual 8" ported sub wouldn't be hitting anywhere near the low response the PB13 did.


----------



## mktheater

Yes, that is the subjective part of it. I have measured both my SS 18.2's and my F-20 horns. Since the F-20 horns were in a sealed chamber after the horn loading they acted like a sealed sub so the rolloff was the same on both even though one was sealed and the other was a horn. However, below the horn(20hz) I measured the THD at 10, 15, and 20hz. The frequencies looked the same as extension goes but how loud they could play at those frequencies were totally different. The sealed sub was 12 dBs louder at 10hz and became less the closer I got towards the horn loading. So although the response at 110 dBs would have been the same the THD on the sealed subs were much lower and that was the max at 10hz for the horn system(10% THD) where the sealed system had at least 12 dBs more to go. That is why I show a response curve near reference so you can really see what one gets at reference.


----------



## craigsub

The conversation about various designs and the ability of each to deliver solid bass below 15 Hz is an interesting one.

Dale measured flat to about 8 Hz in his room. 

Chase Home Theater has never tried to tell anyone that 8 Hz is to be expected from our vented subwoofers. 

As we have stated many times, we expect to see a solid 15 Hz floor at high levels with no audible distortion.

Dale is not suggesting that the 8 Hz he measured in his room for extension is playing a role in his enjoying the performance of the VS-18.1's, and I doubt that it is. 

The VAST majority of a subwoofer's performance is based on what it does from 20-80 Hz, and 99.9 plus % is based above 15 Hz. 

This is where the VS-18.1's "live", and really should be the focus of the discussion. :T


----------



## mktheater

Sorry Craig, just trying to explain one may get a flat response down low with a lower spl level and then it will fall off once turned up. At 110 dBs I can see Dale getting a flat response to about 12-13hz in room which is impressive, to say the least, but that is guessing. Dale's room is better for extension than yours and you get to 14-15hz.


----------



## craigsub

MK - No worries. You personally have experience with a subwoofer system (including the room) that gets to single digit bass.

At $450 each plus shipping, our SS-18.1 modules are a budget friendly solution for the guy who has the desire for bass that extends to between 5 and 10 Hz.

That itself would be a great thread for you to start in our forum here: "How to get 5 to 10 Hz bass and spend less than you thought you had to".


----------



## mktheater

craigsub said:


> MK - No worries. You personally have experience with a subwoofer system (including the room) that gets to single digit bass.
> 
> At $450 each plus shipping, our SS-18.1 modules are a budget friendly solution for the guy who has the desire for bass that extends to between 5 and 10 Hz.
> 
> That itself would be a great thread for you to start in our forum here: "How to get 5 to 10 Hz bass and spend less than you thought you had to".


Sounds like a plan.


----------



## udaman

*Re: Chase Home Theater Giveaway*

kinda newbie question.

The spec on the VS18.1 listed the frequency at 20Hz – 100Hz. Other subwoofers company spec their freq response from 'low' Hz - up to 300Hz. I can understand the 'low' Hz limit since that is the lowest the sub can play dow to and that is what buyers are comparing. But what factors in deciding what is cutoff limit for the 'upper' Hz? And does it matter if the 'upper' limit is 100Hz or 300Hz?


----------



## Sputter

*Re: Chase Home Theater Giveaway*



udaman said:


> kinda newbie question.
> 
> The spec on the VS18.1 listed the frequency at 20Hz – 100Hz. Other subwoofers company spec their freq response from 'low' Hz - up to 300Hz. I can understand the 'low' Hz limit since that is the lowest the sub can play dow to and that is what buyers are comparing. But what factors in deciding what is cutoff limit for the 'upper' Hz? And does it matter if the 'upper' limit is 100Hz or 300Hz?


Imho it only matters if your using small book shelf type speakers that don't play low with any kind of spl.


----------



## udaman

*Re: Chase Home Theater Giveaway*



Sputter said:


> Imho it only matters if your using small book shelf type speakers that don't play low with any kind of spl.


That make sense. thx.


----------



## pbc

craigsub said:


> The conversation about various designs and the ability of each to deliver solid bass below 15 Hz is an interesting one.
> 
> Dale measured flat to about 8 Hz in his room.
> 
> Chase Home Theater has never tried to tell anyone that 8 Hz is to be expected from our vented subwoofers.
> 
> As we have stated many times, we expect to see a solid 15 Hz floor at high levels with no audible distortion.
> 
> Dale is not suggesting that the 8 Hz he measured in his room for extension is playing a role in his enjoying the performance of the VS-18.1's, and I doubt that it is.
> 
> The VAST majority of a subwoofer's performance is based on what it does from 20-80 Hz, and 99.9 plus % is based above 15 Hz.
> 
> This is where the VS-18.1's "live", and really should be the focus of the discussion. :T



Just trying to understand the measurements as usual. The 8hz extension didn't seem right for a ported sub if it rolls off 4 th order at tuning, hence the question re: noise floor. But looking at your outdoor chart posted earlier in post 34 something still seems off as it's very different than the new posted outdoor chart for the review. Ie your omnimic chart looks a bit more like what I'd expect from a sealed sub (gentle roll off starting above 50hz or higher) whereas Dale's looks like what I'd expect from a ported sub tuned to 20 ish hz. Ie, a sharp roll off after the fact but didn't realize the sweep started at 18hz as you mentioned which in some way impacted the roll off. 

Does Omnimic only start it's sweeps at 15hz or something and that's why the sharp roll off doesn't show up?

I guess the in room curve post Audyssey is mainly what matters, and Dale certainly got a great response.


----------



## craigsub

PBC - The shallow rolloff (about 8 dB across appx. 2 octaves) works well in a real room. For a reference, in the same bandwidth, the old TC Sounds 15 rolled off about 5 dB to 20 Hz in a 270 Liter enclosure - about the same size as ours. This helps avoid the boomy sound we often experience in ported subs.

VS-18 owners can confirm this for you. They like how our subwoofers sound. The particular sweep you mentioned was done before the software upgrade on the OmniMic - it used to be 12.5 Hz and is now 5 Hz.

From the outset, the VS-18.1 was designed with Audyssey in mind. I have always thought the subwoofer industry could do "regular guys" a service if we could deliver a subwoofer system that a guy can put in the corner, run Audyssey XT or XT-32, and get a great response. So far, it has been a great success for our customers. 

As the owner of the place, I love it when a guy mentions getting the best bass he ever heard from his system. 

Speaking of TC-Sounds, they are sending an LMS-5400 and LMS-R15 to our cabinet oem for our first builds on with the new line. The TC Sounds subs will be a new chapter for us. A pair of our Vented LMS-R15's and a good pro audio amp will see more output for under $3000 than pretty much anything on the market.


----------



## craigsub

Good morning - This may interest HTS readers. First, let's look at our theater room. It is a 25x24x8.5 foot room with a door opening into an even larger kitchen-dining area. The total cubic feet of the two rooms is about 11,000.

We have measured our subs in quite a few different real rooms - and even large rooms tend to increase SPL below about 40 Hz, and do so more strongly below 20-30 Hz, depending on the room.

Here is the outdoor graph of a VS-18.1 with no eq at all (Try to ignore the stuff above 100 Hz)










Note the gentle roll off to 18 Hz, then it accelerates - down about 14 dB from 20 to 12.5 Hz. 

Here is a graph done in our room, again with no eq:










This is about +/- 3 dB from 18 to 95 Hz, with a rolloff of about 17 db from 20 to 10 Hz. If one thinks about a 4th order roll off below the tuning point, this is pretty close to what we would expect with some room gain. 

Finally - with Audyssey XT engaged, the response looks like this:










This response curve was achieved using nothing more than the eq built into a Denon 1712 receiver, and took less than a half hour of actual "work" in running Audyssey at 7 different seating locations. 

This is part of our goal at CHT - We want to be able to help you get bass flat to 15 Hz, and possibly lower, depending on your budget and your room.

The subwoofer package that delivers this type of bass in our room is just under $2000 delivered to the customer's door. 

We have many other customers who have smaller rooms for whom our sealed subwoofers were a better choice - with many of them achieving bass below 10 Hz, again using nothing but Audyssey. 

As always, if anyone is reading this and is thinking: "I think I understand this, but am not sure", let me know. I will be happy to talk on the phone or try to clarify here. 

Be warned though, get me on the phone, and you may be stuck for a while. lddude:


----------



## mktheater

Hey guys, I wanted to give something to you guys and the winner of the giveaway if I can. If you want I will include my omnimic system to the winner of your giveaway. Is this OK? I use REW now since I figured it out and it is actually easier for me because it is always connected, all I have to do is connect the mic, click on REW, select DVD input and I can run a graph. Besides I use the DCX which works with REW. What do I need to do?

Oh yeah, graphs look great!


----------



## madpoet

Very generous of you Mk!


----------



## D.T.MIKE

madpoet said:


> Very generous of you Mk!


+1 on that! Now maybe if you can include one of your 18.2 subs... just kidden!


----------



## craigsub

MK - Very cool. Having run both REW and OmniMic, REW allows for all the detail one could want in a measuring system. The reason I use Omnimic is mostly because of the time involved. I can take 20 snapshots of responses in 30 minutes, which is most useful when checking out the performance of our subwoofers.

For someone looking to dial in a single system, or to do measurements like Dale is doing, REW is terrific. 

Your offer to give your OmniMic to the winner is GREAT !!! :sn:

Thank You !!!


----------



## MikeBiker

craigsub said:


> Good morning - This may interest HTS readers. First, let's look at our theater room. It is a 25x24x8.5 foot room with a door opening into an even larger kitchen-dining area. The total cubic feet of the two rooms is about 11,000.
> 
> We have measured our subs in quite a few different real rooms - and even large rooms tend to increase SPL below about 40 Hz, and do so more strongly below 20-30 Hz, depending on the room.
> 
> Here is the outdoor graph of a VS-18.1 with no eq at all (Try to ignore the stuff above 100 Hz)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note the gentle roll off to 18 Hz, then it accelerates - down about 14 dB from 20 to 12.5 Hz.
> 
> Here is a graph done in our room, again with no eq:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is about +/- 3 dB from 18 to 95 Hz, with a rolloff of about 17 db from 20 to 10 Hz. If one thinks about a 4th order roll off below the tuning point, this is pretty close to what we would expect with some room gain.
> 
> Finally - with Audyssey XT engaged, the response looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This response curve was achieved using nothing more than the eq built into a Denon 1712 receiver, and took less than a half hour of actual "work" in running Audyssey at 7 different seating locations.
> 
> This is part of our goal at CHT - We want to be able to help you get bass flat to 15 Hz, and possibly lower, depending on your budget and your room.
> 
> The subwoofer package that delivers this type of bass in our room is just under $2000 delivered to the customer's door.
> 
> We have many other customers who have smaller rooms for whom our sealed subwoofers were a better choice - with many of them achieving bass below 10 Hz, again using nothing but Audyssey.
> 
> As always, if anyone is reading this and is thinking: "I think I understand this, but am not sure", let me know. I will be happy to talk on the phone or try to clarify here.
> 
> Be warned though, get me on the phone, and you may be stuck for a while. lddude:


Craig, would it be possible for you to re-post the plots with all having the same scale?


----------



## craigsub

Mike - All three were done with an attempted 93 dB SPL ... all three have 5 dB increments, but I see what you mean. Graphs #1 and #3 are at 90-95-100 ... graph #2 is at 92.5-95.5-102.5. 

I am going to be on my first vacation since 2008 starting Friday (the 9th), and will have very limited availability on the computer until Saturday, the 17th.

I will try to do another "no eq" sweep tonight to the same scale (90-95-100 dB).


----------



## engtaz

Have a great vacation Craig. Enjoy and be safe. PS Who is going to answer the detailed questions when your gone? See, your not easily replaced.


----------



## craigsub

engtaz said:


> Have a great vacation Craig. Enjoy and be safe. PS Who is going to answer the detailed questions when your gone? See, your not easily replaced.


The guys are putting a mannequin at my desk. They want to find out if anyone notices I am gone. :T


----------



## ALMFamily

I think what I like most about CHT is Craig's willingness to do all of this extra leg work when one of us has a question - not to mention providing a quality product for a very affordable price point.

Know that I for one appreciate all the extra information you provide and your dedication to providing it in a timely manner Craig - cheers! :TT

And, that is an extremely generous gift MK!


----------



## pbc

MikeBiker said:


> Craig, would it be possible for you to re-post the plots with all having the same scale?





craigsub said:


> Mike - All three were done with an attempted 93 dB SPL ... all three have 5 dB increments, but I see what you mean. Graphs #1 and #3 are at 90-95-100 ... graph #2 is at 92.5-95.5-102.5.
> 
> I am going to be on my first vacation since 2008 starting Friday (the 9th), and will have very limited availability on the computer until Saturday, the 17th.
> 
> I will try to do another "no eq" sweep tonight to the same scale (90-95-100 dB).


I'd also be interested in the differences between this outdoor graph ...










... and this one ...










They still just look very dissimilar. Unless something is also going on with the scale here that I'm just not seeing? :scratch:


----------



## Sonnie

Ours should be 45db - 105db and 15Hz to 200Hz, but Dale has not updated it yet. That would get the scaling a bit closer.

EDIT... oh... and ours is not smoothed while I believe Craig stated his was 1/6th smoothing, which would account for some differences. Not sure about the apparently slight hump from 40-90Hz on Craigs chart.


----------



## Dale Rasco

Reserved


----------



## MUCHO

Thanks to your review and the idea of owning this system I had my first dream about audio equipment in about 3 years last night. Good to have some audio goals again.


----------



## Dale Rasco

Also keep in mind that Craig engages an 80 Hz crossover for his curves and mine are done with crossover defeated.


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## chashint

Thank you for the final graphs.
Very good of you to stick with this.
It is much appreciated.
This should pretty much put the frequency response questions to rest.


----------



## Technosponge

I for one refuse to believe without a solid test in my theater any of the tests. So when can I expect them to be shipped


----------



## Dale Rasco

I'll be reposting the graphs shortly. I think I found the culprit in this whole measurements problem and will post that as well in a bit.


----------



## GranteedEV

Dale Rasco said:


> I'll be reposting the graphs shortly. I think I found the culprit in this whole measurements problem and will post that as well in a bit.


Let me guess 

The outdoor power supply you were using was struggling with the amp demand, causing the amp to lose power at low frequencies.

Just my uneducated guess


----------



## Dale Rasco

Alright, here's what I found and was able to repeat. After troubleshooting my setup to figure out what changed that my measurements are so much more in line with Chase, it occurred to me what the difference is and it makes perfect sense. This could have also been the culprit in my original measurements. I left the MP-1r (preamp) on after my last test and had to change the battery before starting my more recent sweeps.

I know it sounds weird but after swapping between the new battery and the one in my Tube Screamer, which has some hours on it, a spike showed up unexpectedly between 17 and 20 Hz. I changed the battery again to the new one and spike is gone. 

I took one more measurement from 10-200 Hz and captured with and without smoothing.

With 1/6 Smoothing 










No Smoothing


----------



## sbdman

Dale, thanks for sticking with this and hammering out the culprit. It causes a lot of conspiracy theorists - me included, to try to come up with all kinds of reasons for different results. Didn't even occur to me about the microphone pre-amp. And just because it works doesn't mean it's working correctly.

For my understanding, is there any preamp needed between the pc running REW and the Dayton, or is that direct? And what does the SC-1 do?

Great sleuth work, and can't wait to see what's up next for your reviews and tests.


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## rsu82

Thanks for the review!


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## dsully444

Thanks for the review. From a purchasing standpoint (ie. not DIY, it is not an option for me as I don't really have the best tools for cutting or time) is there anything on the market that is comparable for $2000 to the dual VS-18.1 with amp? Take into consideration the size of these are not an issue.


----------



## dguarnaccia

The 18.2s with amps are close, at 1295 each which deliver insane amounts of SPL for enclosed rooms. I prefer sealed personally and if you have any kind of room gain this things pound low and deep. I love mine.


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## cynikal

Really like your review. Sounds like a phenomenal system (sorry for the pun, couldn't help it). I am mostly a music listener, and i dabble a little with music production (mainly Ableton Live). Curious if this system might be on par with a good set of Reference speakers (like the Mackie HR824 for example)?


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## craigsub

Cynikal - We have actually looked at doing an active version of the SHO-10's - and decided against it. The primary reason is value. The SHO-10's tend to surprise almost everyone who hears them with the sound quality - from the soundstage to articulation. 

Our "target area" is the enthusiast who wants a system in the $5000 range that will make for both an outstanding music and movie experience.

For example, one could get the Five SHO-10 and Dual VS-18.1 package for $3625 delivered. Now contact Value Electronics (another HTS sponsor) for a good Denon receiver and Blu Ray - Take a Denon 3312 receiver plus matching Blu Ray - and you are under $5000 delivered to your door for the whole system.

This system will deliver in excess of 112 dB outdoors from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz at TWO meters using continuous sinewaves. 

I have auditioned systems in the $40,000 range using some terrific, high end gear from Genelec, JBL ... and other companies. 

While this is not the most scientific way of stating it, I think our customers agree: We will give you 90 % of the $40,000 system's performance for 15% of the price.

I also don't think there is another $5000 system one can buy that does what our system (with a moderate receiver) can do.

I hope this helps give a "feel" for our company. 

We are also working on a $1500 5.1 speaker system - 5 speakers plus a killer 15 inch sub, to bring theater to the $2000-$2500 total budget customer.

Getting back to your thoughts on the SHO-10 vs. the Mackie: I think the SHO-10 is a better choice for most systems, as they are a very accurate, neutral system that works under the design philosophy of "form follows function / keep it simple". We use pretty expensive drivers, a great crossever, and maximized performance for the dollar in a monitor delivering 72-20,000 Hz.


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## pbc

*Re: Chase Home Theater Dual VS-18.1 and SHO-10 3.2 Review - Discussion Thread*



craigsub said:


> Good Morning guys - Let's analyze the measure response curve that Dale got against some other data.
> 
> Dale's maximum output levels for the VS-18.1 using sine waves and measured at two meters match up with what out computer models show they would. The max output at 80 Hz is 11.9 dB above the max output at 20 Hz. (116.7 dB vs. 104.8 dB).
> 
> This means at a maximum compression sweep, we are +/- 6dB from 20 to 80 Hz. Even at max output, we are flatter outdoors than the curve showing the frequency response. A lower output level response curve is going to be flatter than the max ouput response curve with most subwoofer systems, especially those without the use of any EQ, DSP, etc ...
> 
> If one looks at the response curve that Dale measured, one can also see that "notch" that shows the tuning frequency. This curve looks more like a close microphone curve of the driver - normally a 2 meter response curve won't show the notch at the tuning frequency as that response curve did.
> 
> Here is the computer model of a VS-18.1 with no eq:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is our response measured outdoors with OmniMic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adding to this the fact that Dale measured within 2 dB at 18 Hz in his room compared to what he measured at 80 Hz BEFORE EQ was done tells us that something was ... unusual ... in the response curve as shown.





Dale Rasco said:


> Alright, here's what I found and was able to repeat. After troubleshooting my setup to figure out what changed that my measurements are so much more in line with Chase, it occurred to me what the difference is and it makes perfect sense. This could have also been the culprit in my original measurements. I left the MP-1r (preamp) on after my last test and had to change the battery before starting my more recent sweeps.
> 
> I know it sounds weird but after swapping between the new battery and the one in my Tube Screamer, which has some hours on it, a spike showed up unexpectedly between 17 and 20 Hz. I changed the battery again to the new one and spike is gone.
> 
> I took one more measurement from 10-200 Hz and captured with and without smoothing.
> 
> With 1/6 Smoothing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No Smoothing


Craig - any further thoughts on why the responses are so far apart?

Also, re: designing the subs to work with Audyssey, I recall when I did some Audyssey tests of my own the Audyssey mic appeared to be at least 5db off from my CSL calibrated mic rig. I.e., Audyssey was boosting the response an additional 5db or so down low, which could cause issues depending on the amp and driver capabilities.

Likely much more so in a vented sub than a sealed sub.

Does the vented sub come with a modded Dayton amp btw? Or can users choose to buy an alternative amp?


----------



## craigsub

PBC - Dale got a flatter response than we did in our testing. We both measured within our spec for the subwoofer.

We have spent considerable time discussing Audyssey on our forum, in regards to how well it works with our subwoofers. Depending on the room, other equipment used and SPL levels one usually listens to, we have customers who use the subsonic filter and others who don't. We have yet to experience any negative issues with Audyssey and our subs. 

ALL of our current subwoofers are available without amplifier for those who wish to purchase a different amp.

We recently delivered 8 SS-18.1's to a customer in Mississauga, and he is using a pair of Crown XLS-5000's.

He describes this $4500 delivered to his door package as "overkill". 

You should try to make our April 21 GTG. It will be a lot of fun!


----------



## pbc

craigsub said:


> PBC - Dale got a flatter response than we did in our testing. We both measured within our spec for the subwoofer.
> 
> We have spent considerable time discussing Audyssey on our forum, in regards to how well it works with our subwoofers. Depending on the room, other equipment used and SPL levels one usually listens to, we have customers who use the subsonic filter and others who don't. We have yet to experience any negative issues with Audyssey and our subs.
> 
> ALL of our current subwoofers are available without amplifier for those who wish to purchase a different amp.
> 
> We recently delivered 8 SS-18.1's to a customer in Mississauga, and he is using a pair of Crown XLS-5000's.
> 
> He describes this $4500 delivered to his door package as "overkill".
> 
> You should try to make our April 21 GTG. It will be a lot of fun!


Not saying Audyssey wouldn't work with any particular sub. I just recall noting my Audyssey mic was measuring a response that was 5db lower (or more) from say 10hz to 30ish hz than it actually was according to my own calibrated mic, meaning to read "flat" Audyssey was boosting 5-10db more than it should have been. Will have to see if I can find my measurements, posted them at AVS after a few others noted the same thing. 

Was curious if maybe the amp was modded at all for the VS or SS series, as if you don't have an Audyssey MultiXT equipped amp (which the subs were designed to take advantage of) you are somewhat at a disadvantage if the subs (particularly the SS series ....) have no built in EQ. I.e., MCACC IIRC only calibrates down to 60 some odd hz, unless it's been changed. No idea what YPAO does, or Timnov, or TACT, etc.

Offering something like a MiniDSP ($150ish shipped?) with some suggested programs depending on room size for instance (for those less inclined to play around with it) would offer users more flexibility. I.e, similar to what SVS offers in their PB13 sub whereby you can add pre configured filters, PEQ's, etc. For the sealed versions you could come up with common programs for what typically happens in various rooms to mimic an L/T, etc.

As for the 21st, I have a second kid due on the 17th and I sort of doubt my better half would be overly understanding if I wasn't around ...


----------



## craigsub

PBC - All subwoofers will need some eq once placed in a room. In the case of our sealed subs, the idea that one can buy four drivers, each capable of 19 mm if clean one way throw, for about $2000 delivered allows for a lot of value for a sealed subwoofer system. 

The variety of new pro amps with built in EQ will aid those who don't have Audyssey. One can also get a pretty flat response curve in most rooms with the Dayton amp and its single Parametric band. 

While some may find that our subs take some work to dial in, the money savings over most other subs makes it worth the effort.

And for inexperienced guys, we offer a wealth of help, one on one. 

Congrats on the impending new arrival!


----------



## TheLaw612

These offerings from Chase really intrigue me... I have been looking at all the ID companies or going DIY...very hard to make up my mind.

Would I need additional EQ on top of what MCACC from my Pioneer would give me? I'm clueless when it comes to using anything but that, YPAO or Audyssey.


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## craigsub

Thelaw612 - Outdoors, a VS-18.1 will give a flat response curve. Indoors, with the room causing peaks and valleys, you really need to be able to measure it, or have something like Audyssey XT/XT-32.

This goes for any subwoofer, unless the sub in question (like the Velodyne DD series) has a built in eq system.

MCACC does not eq the subwoofer, unfortunately. A stand alone sub eq system that is simple to operate is the Anti-Mode 8033. I mention this because you stated that you are "clueless" about handling eq, so something like a Behringer 1124 or Mini DSP might be daunting for you. 

You could also use REW - it's something free, and if you take the time to learn it, can be a terrific tool.

We would need to know more about the rest of your system, and your budget, before proceeding with accuracy in helping you further. 

As an example - how old is your receiver? Many newer units from Onkyo and Denon sell for under $1000 and have Audyssey XT. Selling your receiver may be an option, allowing you to get a receiver which will eq your bass system.


----------



## spurdarren

I have an Onkyo 3008 with Audyssey xt32. I just dont like what it does with my speakers. It makes my speakers sound really flat. Maybe I am just used to the way they sounded before Audyssey and I need to listen to them longer with Audyssey correction.


----------



## gorb

Thanks for the review! I haven't heard any Chase offerings, but I've been interested. I had read about some build quality/finish issues in the past, but haven't heard anything for months now, so I'm not all that worried anymore (not like I can afford new speakers/subs atm anyway ). I do find the speakers to be fairly unattractive, but if they've got the performance, that's what matters to me. The subs look awesome and appear to have great performance as well.

Anyway, they look to be a fantastic bargain, with huge bang for your buck. I'm glad to see a decent review of their products.


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## MUCHO

Anyone reading this who lives in the East Bay area (of Northern California) that owns some Chase subwoofers and wouldn't mind showing them off - let me know! I'm sure I'll make you feel better about your purchase.


----------



## pbc

craigsub said:


> PBC - All subwoofers will need some eq once placed in a room. In the case of our sealed subs, the idea that one can buy four drivers, each capable of 19 mm if clean one way throw, for about $2000 delivered allows for a lot of value for a sealed subwoofer system.
> 
> The variety of new pro amps with built in EQ will aid those who don't have Audyssey. One can also get a pretty flat response curve in most rooms with the Dayton amp and its single Parametric band.
> 
> While some may find that our subs take some work to dial in, the money savings over most other subs makes it worth the effort.
> 
> And for inexperienced guys, we offer a wealth of help, one on one.
> 
> Congrats on the impending new arrival!


Thanks for the congrats! 

Understand re the pro-amps, so is there a filter you've placed on the Dayton to protect the driver given the ported solution that you recco on your site to people not using the modified Dayton amp?

My fear with Audyssey is that it tends to have a mind of it's own and could put a ton of EQ boost down low especially with a ported sub that isn't filtered. I.e., you'd end up with a lot of boost below tuning which could suck up available amp power and some scenes could end up damaging the driver with that much juice below tuning, or induce a of a lot of distortion , port chuffing, other mechanical noises depending on the stress on the driver for a particular scene! I recall when I first bought my Pb13 and later an SMS, Ed told me to be very cautious in applying boost near or below tuning as the driver would not have the protection of being in a sealed box, that and the fact he could tell i was a bit of a bass freak.  Also why they apply a steep filter at tuning, and given the quality/strength of the driver in the PB13 that's saying something!


----------



## craigsub

PBC - All Dayton amps come with a switchable 18 Hz Subsonic filter, and have since day 1. There was never a mod needed to get this filter.


----------



## TheLaw612

So I'm looking into REW and want to mess around with it so I can properly set up a new sub (hopefully a Chase!). However, I do not have a mic to use other than what came with my Pioneer 919. Isn't there a cheaper Dayton Mic somewhere? I see the Omni Mic system but that is an entirely different beast. Can anyone point me in the right direction? 

Thanks and sorry for this being a little off topic.

Edit: NVM I have found it.


----------



## omegaslast

Im suggesting a sub to a friend and i initially was going to recommend the VS18.1, but it seems like the FV15hp is a little louder, despite it being quite a bit smaller.

Would it be fair to compare the numbers from riccis review of the FV15HP or no? (2m ground plane for both im pretty sure)

Let me know if im wrong... I guess the VS18.1 has slightly lower THD+N%, but its also a lot larger.. and the finish on the rythmik looks nicer. Not sure what to suggest for him. Price comes out to almost the same after shipping and amp and all that jazz. 


cant post a link but you can find it on the data-bass website


----------



## craigsub

omegaslast said:


> Im suggesting a sub to a friend and i initially was going to recommend the VS18.1, but it seems like the FV15hp is a little louder, despite it being quite a bit smaller.
> 
> Would it be fair to compare the numbers from riccis review of the FV15HP or no? (2m ground plane for both im pretty sure)
> 
> Let me know if im wrong... I guess the VS18.1 has slightly lower THD+N%, but its also a lot larger.. and the finish on the rythmik looks nicer. Not sure what to suggest for him. Price comes out to almost the same after shipping and amp and all that jazz.
> 
> 
> cant post a link but you can find it on the data-bass website


Josh (Data-Bass) and Dale (HTS) both used 2 meter ground plane, but different methodology. Paul Apollonio has tested both the Rythmik and the VS-18.1 under identical conditions. The Rythmik was written up on Audioholics, while the VS-18.1 was posted on our forum.

The VS-18.1 is currently $1245 delivered with the Dayton amp, and look for our new BASH amp (model name Sub1) coming out in the near future (by month's end). Intro pricing will still be $1245 delivered. 

Finally - Josh will be testing a VS-18.1 with this new amp in the very near future. Please stay tuned - it should be interesting! :sn:


----------



## AVrebel

craigsub said:


> Josh (Data-Bass) and Dale (HTS) both used 2 meter ground plane, but different methodology. Paul Apollonio has tested both the Rythmik and the VS-18.1 under identical conditions. The Rythmik was written up on Audioholics, while the VS-18.1 was posted on our forum.
> 
> The VS-18.1 is currently $1245 delivered with the Dayton amp, and look for our new BASH amp (model name Sub1) coming out in the near future (by month's end). Intro pricing will still be $1245 delivered.
> 
> Finally - Josh will be testing a VS-18.1 with this new amp in the very near future. Please stay tuned - it should be interesting! :sn:


I think I was the one who pointed the differences in testing out over on the other forum.:whistling: How soon is "very near future"? Also, will Ricci be testing with the Dayton as well as the new amp (Sub1 I assume)? 

It would be good for existing owners of the Dayton to know what type of upgrade would be seen by getting the better amp.:spend:


----------



## Dale Rasco

SUWEET! I'll be very interested in seeing Josh's results as well!


----------



## craigsub

AVrebel said:


> I think I was the one who pointed the differences in testing out over on the other forum.:whistling: How soon is "very near future"? Also, will Ricci be testing with the Dayton as well as the new amp (Sub1 I assume)?
> 
> It would be good for existing owners of the Dayton to know what type of upgrade would be seen by getting the better amp.:spend:


Josh will not be using the Dayton amp. He will be adding a high powered pro audio amp to the testing with the Sub1 amp.

With the Data Josh provides using these two amps, and the Data we already have from Apollonio's test last year, there will be analysis done on our site.

Apollonio is the gent who did the testing on the 4 subs for Audioholics in late 2010 / early 2011, and also did our VS-18.1 with the Dayton amp. 

Josh tested the identical Rythmik FV15-HP that Apollonio did.

Let's look at the (2 meters from Josh, adjusted to 2 meters from Apollonio) tests on the Rythmik sub and the adjusted to 2 meters on the VS-18.1 from Apollonio @ 20 Hz:

Josh Ricci recorded 108.3 dB @ 20 Hz with the Rythmik

Apollonio recorded 107.5 dB @ 20 Hz with the Rythmik

Apollonio recorded 108.6 dB @ 20 Hz with the VS-18.1 (Dayton Amp)

These are all 2 meters with the CEA burst test. There was some later discussion on AH about Josh's measurements vs. Apollonio's, but the data above was taken from the actual measurements, not with any adjustments.

Once Josh has had a chance to test out both the Sub1 and a pro amp on the VS-18.1, we will be able to do more analysis of the results - including between what Josh gets and what Dale gets when measuring output levels.


----------



## ironhead1230

craigsub said:


> Josh will not be using the Dayton amp. He will be adding a high powered pro audio amp to the testing with the Sub1 amp.
> 
> With the Data Josh provides using these two amps, and the Data we already have from Apollonio's test last year, there will be analysis done on our site.
> 
> Apollonio is the gent who did the testing on the 4 subs for Audioholics in late 2010 / early 2011, and also did our VS-18.1 with the Dayton amp.
> 
> Josh tested the identical Rythmik FV15-HP that Apollonio did.
> 
> Let's look at the (2 meters from Josh, adjusted to 2 meters from Apollonio) tests on the Rythmik sub and the adjusted to 2 meters on the VS-18.1 from Apollonio @ 20 Hz:
> 
> Josh Ricci recorded 108.3 dB @ 20 Hz with the Rythmik
> 
> Apollonio recorded 107.5 dB @ 20 Hz with the Rythmik
> 
> Apollonio recorded 108.6 dB @ 20 Hz with the VS-18.1 (Dayton Amp)
> 
> These are all 2 meters with the CEA burst test. There was some later discussion on AH about Josh's measurements vs. Apollonio's, but the data above was taken from the actual measurements, not with any adjustments.
> 
> Once Josh has had a chance to test out both the Sub1 and a pro amp on the VS-18.1, we will be able to do more analysis of the results - including between what Josh gets and what Dale gets when measuring output levels.


I'm not sure how you got these numbers. Before any compensation to compare to Josh's numbers, here are the results from Paul I found from your forum and audioholics.



Code:


			         20hz	        25hz	  31.5hz	40hz	50hz	 63hz
VS18			         114.6	118.7	  123.3	126	127.8	 128.6
FV15HP two ports open	 116.5	122	  126.8	129	128.9	 128.7

Your numbers above appear to have 9 db subtracted from the rythmik and 6db subtracted from the VS18.1. 

For the CEA2010 results, I know Josh reports RMS values and not peak values. I thought all of Paul's results were peak values at 1M? To compare to Josh's numbers, don't you need to subtract 6db for going from 1M to 2M and subtract another 3db for peak to RMS for a total of 9db? 

-Mike


----------



## sbdman

Audioholics made an update on 3/8/12;


> In order to make it easier for our readers to compare our CEA data between subwoofers tested prior to our new Subwoofer Measurement Protocol, we scaled our 1 meter peak CEA data to 2 meter RMS by subtracting 9dB for each frequency.


The CEA data used by Craig for the VS-18.1, and the numbers Audioholics now uses are to that CEA 2 meter RMS standard.

Hope this explains the confusion.


----------



## ironhead1230

sbdman said:


> Audioholics made an update on 3/8/12;
> 
> 
> The CEA data used by Craig for the VS-18.1, and the numbers Audioholics now uses are to that CEA 2 meter RMS standard.
> 
> Hope this explains the confusion.


I understand Audioholics has been posting edits to compensate all CEA results to 2M RMS for easier comparison to Ricci's measurements, but I don't think the CEA numbers originally posted on the CHT forum were 2M RMS. If they were, why did Craig subtract 6db from the VS18.1's original result? 

Look at the numbers that have been posted again. Paul's original CEA numbers posted at Audioholics were 1M peak values. At 20hz, Audioholics original number for the FV15HP was 116.5db. Subtracting 9db to convert to 2M RMS, gives a value of 107.5db, which matches what Craig posted. From the CHT forum, the VS18.1 did 114.6db at 20hz. It is not explicitly stated what the test methodology was, but I am assuming Paul used the same format, 1M peak, as he did for audioholics. So again subtracting 9db to convert to 2M RMS gives a value of 105.6db, not 108.6db like Craig posted. For some reason Craig subtracted 6db from what was originally reported. I'm just looking for clarification if the numbers originally posted at the CHT forum were for 1M peak or 1M RMS?

-Mike


----------



## craigsub

Ironhead - I did adjust the figures to 2 meters by subtracting 6 dB from Apollonio's measured results for BOTH the VS-18.1 and the FV15-HP. The 116.5 dB figure for the Rythmik was done by adding 3 dB to the 113.5 dB that Apollonio measured when he tested the FV15-HP. 

I did not add the 3 dB to the VS-18.1, so the figures I used were "apples to apples" from the Apollonio test. 

Apollonia actually measured 113.5 dB at one meter/20 Hz on the Rhythmik and 114.6 at one meter/20 Hz on the VS-18.1, which translates into 107.5 and 108.6 dB respectively for the two subs at two meters. It seems proper to post actual measurements on both subs, not conjecture after the test. Or, we could just add the same 3 dB to both subs, and handle it that way, if you prefer. 

We now also have a VS-18.1 in Josh Ricci's hands for his test, and we can, as I stated earlier, do more analyis of the two subwoofers after Josh finishes testing the VS-18.1. 

Let's wait until Josh finishes the test so we can see data on the VS-18.1 compared to all the subs Josh has tested. 

Josh is going to run two tests on the VS-18.1: 

1. He will be running a test with our new Sub1 amp.
2. He will be running a second test using a pro-audio amp for those who might want to purchase our VS-18.1 as a passive unit.


----------



## ironhead1230

craigsub said:


> Ironhead - I did adjust the figures to 2 meters by subtracting 6 dB from Apollonio's measured results for BOTH the VS-18.1 and the FV15-HP. The 116.5 dB figure for the Rythmik was done by adding 3 dB to the 113.5 dB that Apollonio measured when he tested the FV15-HP.
> 
> I did not add the 3 dB to the VS-18.1, so the figures I used were "apples to apples" from the Apollonio test.
> 
> Apollonia actually measured 113.5 dB at one meter/20 Hz on the Rhythmik and 114.6 at one meter/20 Hz on the VS-18.1, which translates into 107.5 and 108.6 dB respectively for the two subs at two meters. It seems proper to post actual measurements on both subs, not conjecture after the test. Or, we could just add the same 3 dB to both subs, and handle it that way, if you prefer.
> 
> We now also have a VS-18.1 in Josh Ricci's hands for his test, and we can, as I stated earlier, do more analyis of the two subwoofers after Josh finishes testing the VS-18.1.
> 
> Let's wait until Josh finishes the test so we can see data on the VS-18.1 compared to all the subs Josh has tested.
> 
> Josh is going to run two tests on the VS-18.1:
> 
> 1. He will be running a test with our new Sub1 amp.
> 2. He will be running a second test using a pro-audio amp for those who might want to purchase our VS-18.1 as a passive unit.


Thanks for the response Craig. It's great Ricci will be doing more testing. It makes comparisons much easier.

Looking closer at the 4 tests Paul did for Audioholics, I'm even more confused. I thought Paul's original CEA results were 1M peak for all of the subs. Now looking at the reviews, Audioholics amended the Rythmik and HSU results by adding 3db to the results with this explanation: "We also added +3dB to the 1 meter test data to represent true peak output performance." However the SVS and Funky Waves were not changed. I don't know why two results were changed and two left alone. At this point, I'm not sure what to make of all of the results, but don't want to derail this thread anymore so I'll take any further questions to PM or a different thread.

For the VS18.1 results from the CHT forum, I also thought they were 1M peak, but it sounds like they are 1M RMS. If that is the case, that's the reason for my confusion.

-Mike


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## craigsub

Mike - The tests Apollonio did were all 1 meter peak. If you look at the adjusted for two meters results, Apollonio measured 107.5 dB on the Rythmik at 20 Hz, while Josh measured either 108.1 or 108.3 dB at 20 Hz, the 108.1 dB with both ports open and 108.3 with one port open.

Josh's burst test was within either 0.6 or 0.8 dB of Apollonio's @ 20 Hz, which is pretty consistent. That is close enough that small differences in microphone calibration and also ambient temperatures can account for the difference. 

Apollonio's first measurements should not have been changed by anyone for any reason, IMHO. 

Dale Rasco measured a VS-18.1 as delivering 104.7 dB at 20 Hz, but this was in keeping TOTAL HARMONIC DISTORTION below 10%, rather than using the CEA-2010's much higher allowed distortion levels.

When Apollonio tested the VS-18.1, the only amp we had available was the Dayton. He mentioned at the time that the VS-18.1 was held back in the test by the Dayton amp. 

This is why we sent Josh the new Sub1 amp to Josh and also why he is going to wring out a VS-18.1 with a pro audio amp.

The VS-18.1 sells for $700 as a passive unit - making it a good match (hopefully) for a powerful pro audio amp.

The Sub1's first shipment to us left the OEM yesterday, so they will be available when Josh finishes testing. 

The Sub1 is a 600 watt RMS / 1500 watt peak BASH amp with hard wired subsonic protection that will take the VS-18.1 and make it "safe" for anyone. Josh has the same Sub1 amp I used here with the VS-18.1, and I TRIED to destroy the VS-18.1. 

I failed to do so, which is a good thing.

Josh has a lot on his plate, so please be patient with him. It may be July before he is done. I hope our subwoofer does well. :sweat:


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