# comparing JL audio, Revel B12, Velo and SVS??



## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

I currently have an SVS 25-31 PC and am kind of tired of the "look" of it. Also I was calibrating my system on Sat and there are some HUGE peaks and valleys in my room (the sub is also corner loaded and for some reason I can hear the direction the bass is coming from. I have the crossover set about 80hz due to my pre/pro settings of the mains. I might end up running a newer sub in the front, between my 2 mains).

I have done a TON of research on the subs over the weekend, and I will read a few good threads about one item, then I read a couple bad posts about a sub and I feel like I just end up going in circles.

At first I thought I could just contact SVS and have them send me a Sub Enclosure that I could put the driver and amp in. Well, as it turns out SVS doesn't opperate that way, I would have to by a new unit or build a DIY with my SVS driver. I would then also have to go through the confusing process of buying and setting up a BFD (and by reading the BFD set up guide, also buy another SPL meter, since my RS version isn't accurate enough......in other words, spend a couple hundred bucks on the BFD and SPL in addition to buying a new sub enclosure OR buying a new SVS).

This got me thinking about looking at other options. I am more home audio VS HT and sound quality, NOT pure SPL is more important to me. After doing the research I am favoring a sealed sub for accuracy and responsiveness.

I was looking at the following subs and was wondering what you guys think is a good option. I don't want to spend a TON of money (probably below $1500, and preferably more around $1000, new or used).

I have to admit, the Velodyne DD and SPL series are looking very attractive right now. You can get them pretty decent prices if you go slightly used or internet, they come with a PEQ that is very very easy to set up, they are small, sealed and have got some pretty good reviews. I have never really been a big velodyne fan, but his option is looking very attractive.

The others are far more expensive, my dad has the Revel B12a, it is like a $5k sub and a great piece, but a TON of money. The sub comes with set up software and an EQ, so it can be tuned, although not as easily as the Velo or JL audio.

The JL-Audio subs look very nice as well, sealed, small box, easy set up, but they are pretty expensive as well.

SVS subs are a great price, but lack of PEQ and having to spend a lot of time, hassle and a couple hundred bucks more on the BFD and SPL meter have me shying away a bit (plus I might have to get a ported sub in a larger box to compete with the subs listed above.

Anyone have good information on the Velodyne DD12, SPL1200r, Revel B12a, JL-Audio (any), or any of the SVS box subs OR ANY OTHER good OPTIONS that you might have?

btw, my room is a medium sized room, that is open to the kitchen on the side.

This is my first post here, so be easy on me 

Currently Running:
B&W N804
McIntosh MX132
McIntosh MC150
Mcintosh MC7205
SVS 25-31 custom tuned to 20 Hz


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Welcome rodH, glad you are here. I have the SVS SB12-Plus/2 with the newest drivers. I have it in a 11.8' x 15' vaulted ceiling dedicated HT room. It will both reveal subtle organ, bass guitar, etc notes, and arouse whales in the North Atlantic! Since I have installed a Denon AVR-2807, I use its AudysseyXT system to balance the entire system including the sub. I very much like this system. Hope that helps. Have fun, Dennis


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

Hi Rod, first let me say,... Welcome to the Shack.

Second, I thought all SVS Ultra and Plus series subs have a PEQ. 

Was thinking the SB12-Plus would be just what you're looking for. $700 - $800 depending on finish, small, sealed, and PEQ. :dunno:


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## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

nova said:


> Hi Rod, first let me say,... Welcome to the Shack.
> 
> Second, I thought all SVS Ultra and Plus series subs have a PEQ.
> 
> Was thinking the SB12-Plus would be just what you're looking for. $700 - $800 depending on finish, small, sealed, and PEQ. :dunno:


Mark, I guess I missed that, Hmmmm, makes that sub a real possibility. Any idea how it compares to the velodynes and how easy it is to set up?

Looking at the site it looks like a super basic set up (setting the room to larger or small), is that really going to fix ALL the peaks and valleys at different frequencies in the room???


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2008)

RodH,

How would you describe your sub now in terms of sound quality and output? Does it really live up to all the hype? I've never really heard any owners comment on the 25-31 before. I'm assuming this is the powered version with the 525 watt amp.

The SB12-Plus is also nice, though I have a feeling that it won't come close to matching the output and extension of the 25-31...


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## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

kioko12 said:


> RodH,
> 
> How would you describe your sub now in terms of sound quality and output? Does it really live up to all the hype? I've never really heard any owners comment on the 25-31 before. I'm assuming this is the powered version with the 525 watt amp.
> 
> The SB12-Plus is also nice, though I have a feeling that it won't come close to matching the output and extension of the 25-31...



I like the sub, it isn't a powered version, I am running a seperate PE plate amp 250w. It goes well beyond 20 Hz in my room and how the amp-crossover and port was configured. The thing I do NOT like about it now is the LOOKS, the SIZE, and the fact that my room has some huge peaks in valleys and there is no way to correct that unless I went with a BFD or something similar. In my cars, I used to ONLY run sealed subs because I liked how "musical" they were. In the past a good sealed HT sub was hard to find, but over the past couple years it looks like that is changing AND the ability to correct any problems with the room set up.


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

rodH said:


> Looking at the site it looks like a super basic set up (setting the room to larger or small), is that really going to fix ALL the peaks and valleys at different frequencies in the room???


Sorry, that's beyond my realm of expertise. Though I'm sure Ron or Tom from SVS could answer all your questions,... a quick post in our SVSound forum would likely get you plenty of info.


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## a1161979 (Aug 26, 2007)

If i was you id head over to the DIY forum and ask the guys to help you build a sealed sub

Given a budget of $1000 you can build a great sealed sub and have enough money for a BFD, although REW can seem like a hassle once you get going its really easy :nerd: not to mention the guys here can help you with any problems, and Bruce's BFD guide is great and easy to understand

Although a DIY sub is a lot of effort given a budget of $1000 you can achieve a better result if you do your homework. Not only that but you mentioned the looks... Well if you build it you can build it the shape you want it and finish it the way you want it :T 

Given that budget id probably build a sealed twin 15 inch sealed box with Tempest X drivers and an EP1500 amp, you should be able to build a box yourself and have enough for a BFD etc and come in at around $1000

Of course all this assumes you have the time and knowledge to build it... Having said this trust me with the information on HTS it wont take long to learn and building a sealed box is fairly easy :daydream: trust me a decent DIY sub will perform much better providing its done right than anything on the comercial market. Not only this but there is a real sence of pride and enjoyment when its finished and fired up for the first time. Not to mention when people come over and are amazed by the performance and ask where and how much the answer that you build it is great. 

Now head over to the DIY forum and get started... just to help you here is a quick guide
1. suitable driver, 15 inch reasonable Xmax etc for a sealed box (two are even better if you can afford space and it its within budget something like the Tempest X or ED's 15 driver hey even their 13inch brute)
2. Decent power amplifier (start with Behringers EP series, the 1500 might be enough but if it can be afforded go for the 2500 and dont forget the fan mod)
3. MDF, simple really but build it strong with bracing/double thickness front baffle (18mm with 36mm front)
4. BFD to get everything nice and flat when its finished

Honestly if you have the time build it yourself, hey even get you dad to help you :heehee: make a thread in the DIY section and we can all help you more from there with specifics on Drivers, amps and enclosure design :boxer: You wont be disapointed

Edit: Oh and welcome to the shack hope you enjoy your stay here... and dont worry about us were all nice really


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## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

a1161979 said:


> If i was you id head over to the DIY forum and ask the guys to help you build a sealed sub
> 
> Given a budget of $1000 you can build a great sealed sub and have enough money for a BFD, although REW can seem like a hassle once you get going its really easy :nerd: not to mention the guys here can help you with any problems, and Bruce's BFD guide is great and easy to understand
> 
> ...



Thats the problem, the amount of time, the tools, etc...I just don't have it like I use to. I also really really like the looks of some of the commercial units, I can admit that I am not that good as woodworking. I have thought about buying a commercial box or buying one from SVS. SVS said they don't work that way, and the boxes on PE look pretty cheap as far as finish goes. Thats why I am drawl to some of these commercial units.


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

A different enclosure or different sub in the same location of the room will likely have the same response (peak/null) problems as your original SVS PC 25-31. Moving the sub around in different locations of the room might be the best bet to reduce peaks/valleys. What is wrong with your existing Radio Shack SPL meter? Especially if you hook it up to a PC sound card Aux Input and use the free REW. Moving the sub around with checking the results using REW is the first thing you should try.

Some users have found that adding another sub can fix bad room response problems. REW is invaluable to get the best results from doing this (best placement with multiple subs).

Later you could consider getting a BFD to further pull down the remaining peaks. Having a lot of fully adjustable filter channels with its parametric equalizer gives you a lot of control as compared to a one or four channel EQ built into the sub.


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## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

bobgpsr said:


> A different enclosure or different sub in the same location of the room will likely have the same response (peak/null) problems as your original SVS PC 25-31. Moving the sub around in different locations of the room might be the best bet to reduce peaks/valleys. What is wrong with your existing Radio Shack SPL meter? Especially if you hook it up to a PC sound card Aux Input and use the free REW. Moving the sub around with checking the results using REW is the first thing you should try.
> 
> Some users have found that adding another sub can fix bad room response problems. REW is invaluable to get the best results from doing this (best placement with multiple subs).
> 
> Later you could consider getting a BFD to further pull down the remaining peaks. Having a lot of fully adjustable filter channels with its parametric equalizer gives you a lot of control as compared to a one or four channel EQ built into the sub.



1. This is why I wanted to get something with an Auto-PEQ, it is automatic

2. I READ on the BFD setup guide that the RS SPL meter isn't accurate and you need to buy another one for around $100.

3. I don't want to have to buy 2 subs, the room is pretty small, I don't want to take up for space, I don't want to spend more money, and I should beable to accomplish good results with 1 Sub in this room if it is good enough and use some sort of PEQ.


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Rodney, as to your 2nd statement about the RS meter. It can be corrected with a EQ curve supplied with the REW download. It will be accurate enough to get a good setting either by a manual EQ or automatically with the BFD with the proper cable with the REW. I have used the REW with a RS meter, BFD, and got a good balance for my sub. Dennis


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## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

drdoan said:


> Rodney, as to your 2nd statement about the RS meter. It can be corrected with a EQ curve supplied with the REW download. It will be accurate enough to get a good setting either by a manual EQ or automatically with the BFD with the proper cable with the REW. I have used the REW with a RS meter, BFD, and got a good balance for my sub. Dennis


thanks for the note.

So no one has experience with the subs I listed above???


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

Just how big is your room, you say medium sized but open to a kitchen, so that could be any size, 1000-8000cubic ft. If it is an area in the 4000cf range then you will most likely need 2 subs to really eliminate the peaks and nulls, as PEQs do a very good job but they won't eliminate them completely. Strategic placement will also help alot with the elimination of the peaks and valleys.

It also sounds like you are stuck on the big brand names Fathom and Revel but the price is the problem. A number of the reviews have the PB13-ultra sounding very close or better than than the F113 at less than half the cost. It seems to me unless you are willing to spend the money then you are left with the larger ported designs.


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## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

jakewash said:


> Just how big is your room, you say medium sized but open to a kitchen, so that could be any size, 1000-8000cubic ft. If it is an area in the 4000cf range then you will most likely need 2 subs to really eliminate the peaks and nulls, as PEQs do a very good job but they won't eliminate them completely. Strategic placement will also help alot with the elimination of the peaks and valleys.
> 
> It also sounds like you are stuck on the big brand names Fathom and Revel but the price is the problem. A number of the reviews have the PB13-ultra sounding very close or better than than the F113 at less than half the cost. It seems to me unless you are willing to spend the money then you are left with the larger ported designs.


36X12X9=about 3900 cu ft for the room+kitchen, then a hallway starts on the opposite end. The "area" I listen to the system in is about 1/3 of that, but like you said, it is open to the kitchen so I guess you have to take that into consideration. It might need be said that the Kitchen in on the SIDE of the theater, NOT directly behind, so I am only sitting about 10' from my mains and the sub is right next to the sitting position.

Thanks

It looks like the Velodyne DD12 can be bought used in the $1500 range, so that might be an option as well?


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

That hallway will let alot of LFE get out of the room and itis the total open area you have to look at when talking subs as they have to pressurize the room for them to work.

You have good sub right now and the peaks and nulls could be better balanced through sub placement and not just PEQ. I would start doing the sub crawl or move the sub around in the room and try the graphing to see if it helps.

If you are stuck for that corner position like I am, then maybe just investing in a sub EQ system like the SMS-1 might be the way to go and open up the options for a different sub.

So far as a used DD-12 it is an option, I haven't heard one, but most of the reviews are very positive for them but for the $1500 range you could easily get the PB13-Ultra as well, it could be a great end table:whistling:


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## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

great points. When I look at the SVS vs DD-12

SVS is larger and uses a ported design (does it do as well with Music?) and doesn't have as good of a Auto-EQ feature

DD is a smaller unit, sealed usually equals tighter bass which is usually better for music, the Auto-EQ is supposed to be great (since I can't move my sub or get another).

I guess these are just options i have to weigh.

I could get a Used DD12 in perfect condition for about the same price as the SVS, I have also been reading about the 15" sub on AV123 for about $600, WOW that seems like another great option if I wanted to do my own PEQ


jakewash said:


> That hallway will let alot of LFE get out of the room and itis the total open area you have to look at when talking subs as they have to pressurize the room for them to work.
> 
> You have good sub right now and the peaks and nulls could be better balanced through sub placement and not just PEQ. I would start doing the sub crawl or move the sub around in the room and try the graphing to see if it helps.
> 
> ...


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Be aware that the sealed "tighter sound" claim versus ported is controversial. When the ported subwoofer can use a tune of 16 Hz or so and the subwoofer is properly (freq response wise) integrated into the room there is no longer very much physics to support the "fast bass" claim. 

It is those 30 Hz tuned subs located in a bad response location that give cause to the sealed sub "tighter sound" or "fast bass" claim.

Granted that a 25 Hz tune for a ported sub is not the most optimum for music.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

bobgpsr said:


> Be aware that the sealed "tighter sound" claim versus ported is controversial. When the ported subwoofer can use a tune of 16 Hz or so and the subwoofer is properly (freq response wise) integrated into the room there is no longer very much physics to support the "fast bass" claim.
> 
> It is those 30 Hz tuned subs located in a bad response location that give cause to the sealed sub "tighter sound" or "fast bass" claim.
> 
> Granted that a 25 Hz tune for a ported sub is not the most optimum for music.


So are you saying that the 25-31 plus in its regular tune will sound bad? Loose? My only experience is with small sealed subwoofers. How is this sub rated in terms of sound quality and output? I'd imagine that the sound is horrible out of a tube design.


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## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

Tanjay2 said:


> So are you saying that the 25-31 plus in its regular tune will sound bad? Loose? My only experience is with small sealed subwoofers. How is this sub rated in terms of sound quality and output? I'd imagine that the sound is horrible out of a tube design.


Nope, it sounds great, I am just not super happy with the size, looks and I want the bass equalized for the room. I got the set up for around $500, at the time it was killing subs costing 2,3,4X that. Since then, others have had to get more serious about the subs they produce. I think SVS gave a LOT of people a kick in the butt regarding subwoofers. Prior to that M&K was one of the specialty sub companies (they are now out of business) and they are a great sub at the time for bass from about 30 Hz up, but SVS took things to a new level and forced everyone else to follow suit. With all the calibration discs out now, HT going crazy and the easy access to a SPL meter, I think people could finally find for themselves if they have REAL BASS or just mid-bass thump. I think that is why some people have caught up (usually at a much higher price) the appealing thing about a lot of the subs I am considering is the Auto-EQ and smaller size and looks.

btw, do research on the "tube" it is one of the reasons it sounds so good and doesn't have to weigh 8 million pounds.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

That's not necessarily true. Quite a bit comes down to design and execution. Take the Rel 300 series subs, for example. I've heard these in person and was quite underwhelmed. According to several quantitative measurements, they have a tremendous amount of distortion. Again, it comes down to the particular design of each manufacturer.


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## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

kioko12 said:


> That's not necessarily true. Quite a bit comes down to design and execution. Take the Rel 300 series subs, for example. I've heard these in person and was quite underwhelmed. According to several quantitative measurements, they have a tremendous amount of distortion. Again, it comes down to the particular design of each manufacturer.


Who said anything about a REL 300? I haven't heard them to compare.

Design? Sealed VS ported? is that what you are referring to? I am by no means a subwoofer expert, but I think I do have a little bit of experience with them, back in the day when NO one did pre-amp outs in a car audio unit my dad had his own car stereo business where he would take an Alpine unit open it up, run pre-amp outs and run it to an Audiomobile or Linear Power amplifier, then he would take the legandary KEFB139 drivers and put them in the floor boards of Porsche 911's and other such cars, it was super trick in the late 70s and early 80s. Back then they went to very very accurate sound in car audio (compared to the BOOOOOM that everyone goes for now). This was my 1st introduction to real bass. We had some other configurations where we put them in much larger but still sealed boxes. From then on, I always ran sealed subs. I think they sounded very fast, responsive and accurate, VS Boomy that all the guys started to run with ported subs. I think the theory was that the sealed sub, the air created a bit of suction, so the driver could be back in its original location very quickly, but it required more/REAL power to get to excursion out. Maybe this was a false notion, I don't know. The other traditional thought was that it was better (more accurate) to have a few smaller drivers (like 4 8" drivers, or 2 10" drivers, VS 1 15" driver). I guess that theory maybe thrown out the window as well? Maybe I am stupid, but I was at a very high end dealer today that was explaining to me about the higher end REL Sub, and he explained that it was smaller than a 15" driver, so it was quicker and more accurate and it was a sealed design that "will blend better with your mains for music".

This isn't the really really big reason I was thinking about these speakers though, the main reason I started looking at sealed designs was to have a smaller footprint, and the main reasons I started looking at these designs is based on the EQ abilities and the great reviews.

Looking at some of the reviews that the Velodyne dd18, 1812, Any of the JL audio or the Revel B15 have gotten, I find it a bit curious that no one seems to want to talk about the velodyne, revel, JL compared to the SVS. I haven't ruled out the SVS, and frankly if there were an Auto-EQ unit on it, it would probably lead my list. The sub on AV123 looks pretty dang sweet as well, for SUPER CHEAP.


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Model for model, the SVS's compare very well with the above mentioned subs, both in lower freq response, and tightness. However, if you are looking for a sub with an auto EQ, you should go with those that have it. All the subs you have named are great subs. 
Have you read the testing done by Ilka? Dennis


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Tanjay2 said:


> So are you saying that the 25-31 plus in its regular tune will sound bad? Loose? My only experience is with small sealed subwoofers. How is this sub rated in terms of sound quality and output? I'd imagine that the sound is horrible out of a tube design.


No, I'll bet it sounds great! Just that 25 Hz tuning for the port allows its contribution to become audiable to the ears. People who are worried about Impulse Response (phase delays) from the port's contribution as compared to non-such from a sealed subwoofer raise this objection. Havng the tuning point to be below what most people can hear (but still feel) -- that is -- a mid-teens Hz tuning point -- removes this consideration.

Not sure how much you can hear a difference, say with 22 Hz bass notes, between a sealed subwoofer versus a ported subwoofer tuned at 25 Hz, but I am willing to admit that it might be possible. :scratchhead:


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## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

bobgpsr said:


> No, I'll bet it sounds great! Just that 25 Hz tuning for the port allows its contribution to become audiable to the ears. People who are worried about Impulse Response (phase delays) from the port's contribution as compared to non-such from a sealed subwoofer raise this objection. Havng the tuning point to be below what most people can hear (but still feel) -- that is -- a mid-teens Hz tuning point -- removes this consideration.
> 
> Not sure how much you can hear a difference, say with 22 Hz bass notes, between a sealed subwoofer versus a ported subwoofer tuned at 25 Hz, but I am willing to admit that it might be possible. :scratchhead:


FYI, my 25-31 used a custom port to make it reach down to 22 Hz and I had an amp custom tuned so it boosted a few DB at around 20Hz, so it is flat from around 30 Hz all the way down to below 20 Hz (given the room it is in). It is above that I have all the peaks and valleys


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

Rod,

So what's happening?

I just came on this thread.

Did anyone suggest that he measure his room to see if its the sub or the room that's causing his problems?


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## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

JimP said:


> Rod,
> 
> So what's happening?
> 
> ...


I have decided to build my own. I am in the finishing stages of my enclosure. Sealed design ~4.0 cu ft with 2 12" TC1000 drivers, using a velodyne Sc1250 (1250w RMS, 3000w peak) amp with a built in PEQ. It is taking longer than I thought it would, about a week left.


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

Hey RodH,
The SC1250 got tested over at AVS and it acquitted itself pretty well. It put out a solid 1000watts.


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## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

Ricci said:


> Hey RodH,
> The SC1250 got tested over at AVS and it acquitted itself pretty well. It put out a solid 1000watts.


is that a surprise that is actually produces what it claims? Why does one channel produce 2X the power of the other?


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## doubeleive (Oct 31, 2007)

i just want my sub's to sound like it does when I go to a concert, atleast at the arco arena the bass is litterally earth shattering, totaly and utterly amazing, now what...


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

rodH said:


> is that a surprise that is actually produces what it claims? Why does one channel produce 2X the power of the other?


I was just trying to be helpful. :dontknow:


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## rodH (Mar 31, 2008)

Ricci said:


> I was just trying to be helpful. :dontknow:


no, no, no. I wasn't trying to be a jerk, it was a sincere question. I didn't know that a lot of these amps are overrated. I know you were trying to be helpful, and you were, and thats why I have jumped on that thread. I am sorry if you took it wrong. Thanks for the info.


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

It's all good man. I thought you were kind of shooting the messenger or something. To answer your question. Yes it is. It seems like most of the amps tested put out nowhere near what they are rated at under the admittedly harsh test proceddures..


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

rodH said:


> Why does one channel produce 2X the power of the other?


the test on the left side is the 8ohm test, the one on the right is the 4ohm test which is why the one on the right is almost twice that of the left "channel"

though in reality, there are no channels  it's a mono amp.


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