# Suppose you have 1500$ to 2000$ to spend.



## daniel (Dec 31, 2006)

And sound quality (two channels and multichannels) your primary concern.

Would you rather buy...

1-A used high end processor ( krell hts 7.1, classe ssp-300 or other similar high end processor) 

2-or a brand new low end with all the bells and whistle processor?

I really mean processor, not receiver.

3-If you had 2000$ would you do the same thing?

p.s. There is not enough money to buy a high end 2 channels preamp + a processor, or receiver.


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

2. Get something that will decode the new high def audio codecs.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Well I believe speakers will make a bigger difference in sound quality if you have low end speakers now. Not that $2000 will buy the best speakers but if you have speakers that are not very good a better processor or reciever won't make that big of a difference. IMO.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

It depends on what your using for a receive now? Processing has come a long way in the last 5 years and a new receiver with room coorection is a must. For between $1500-$2000 you can buy a supper nice receiver from Onkyo that will blow away the compittition. All mid to high end receivers have a pure direct mode that bypasses all but the nessisary internal processing to give you the purest two channel sound you can get.


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## daniel (Dec 31, 2006)

My listening room is 17 x 27 with 13 feet high ceilling

I have simaudio amp and Martin Logan Vantage speaker (front), in wall surround speaker ( seas woofers and planar tweeters), no sub and no center channel ( I adhere to the no center mono sound school)


I dont' have blue-ray player and I don't plan to buy one this year.
I used an Oppo universal player which has one HDMI output connected to my sharp Aquos tv set, sound through digital output to my preamp-processor

I used to use for surround sound my b&K reference 20 preamp-processor, but is defective, only stereo still working perfectly. I'Ts not worth to send for repair.

The raison I said that sound was my primary concern it's because my main source for music is my Oracle Delphi 4. I've not heard digital that was even remotly closed to the sound quality of this turntable (on the other hand I've not heard all of them).

For me a receiver is out of question. 

One aspect to keep in mind, right now, I can afford 2000$ max preamp-processor.
In less than 2 years I will not have to pay morgage anymore. So there will be muych more money available.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

daniel said:


> For me a receiver is out of question.


May I ask Why?
For the same amount of money you spend on a Preamp you can get a receiver that has far more features and has pre outs so you can use it as a preamp and still get all the features.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I have Martin Logan Prodigy's with a Theater center and Ascent surrounds. I am currently using a NAD T785 Receiver and will be changing that to an Onkyo 906 come tomorrow or Tuesday. I previously ran an Onkyo 876. All of these receivers have handled the preamp duties and powered the center and surrounds, while a pair of Emotiva XPA-1's are powering the Prodigy's. No regrets with any of these receivers. I definitely would not discount receivers, which I believe would as good if not better than any preamp Krell makes... or anyone else for that matter. If you insist on a preamp only... wait for the Emotiva preamp processor release... it is priced right. :T


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## daniel (Dec 31, 2006)

Before going to separate, I was using receivers. I wouldn't want to down that path again. 

In my opinion, no receiver can stand to an amp. Of course you said to use the pre-out function, but I also think that no receiver can stand to a separated processor which, unless paying a fortune ( even then I would have to compare them), can not stand to a separated preamp.

For me buying a used high end processor, or even a high end processor in 2 years, will be a compromise on sound quality. Maybe in two years from now, I will be able to buy something like a Classe ssp-800 or better. Right now, I have to settle for less. downgrading the sound for tv, or movies is out of question.

I like movies, but I really love music.


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## daniel (Dec 31, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> If you insist on a preamp only... wait for the Emotiva preamp processor release... it is priced right. :T


Yes. I'm waiting for the first owner comment. It has nice features..and nice look too (nobody cares .:rofl: )


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

If sound quality is the primary concern, then I think you have to pick the higher quality product. Even if it is older. The difference between an average DAC and an excellent DAC is quite large. Larger than the difference between compressed versus uncompressed digital soundtracks (given there's this big moving picture distracting you from the audio). You'll appreciate the audio quality more when you're listening to 2-channel music.

You don't necessarily need to go into the price range of a Classe SSP-800 to achieve the level of sound found in the SSP-800. $2000 used can get you pretty much there, if you find the right product.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

If you're not happy with the curent sound, I would be first looking into treating the space acoustically...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

daniel said:


> Before going to separate, I was using receivers. I wouldn't want to down that path again.


This may have been the case 5 or mor years ago but receivers have come a very long way in the last 5 years. Your not giving them a fair chance and you will be spending allot more money than you need to. I'd put my Onkyo 805 up against any PrePro you can find for even tree times as much and I bet you would never be able to tell the difference.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

The Onkyo Pres can be had for under $1000, last I heard. Should have all the features you need, and perfect sound quality.


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## daniel (Dec 31, 2006)

glaufman said:


> If you're not happy with the curent sound, I would be first looking into treating the space acoustically...



Well, the acoustic is not a problem. It's the defective, and old, processor.

My room is large, and it doesn't have a box shape (or worst a cube shape) prone to troublesome standing waves ( however, any room has some standing waves). It has wooden walls with carved patterns. There's a big unused window behind the sound system. It's been filled with acoustic wool and covered with a big African batik. The nearest wall (right of loudspeaker) has lot of plant and two easy chairs. I also use a big stuffed sofa with big cushion which adsorb some lower frequencies.

Mind you, the next processor will be a temporary solution until my next $$$$ step.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Hi Daniel,

Because you're from Quebec, Canada, where do you intend to make your purchase(s)?

* Is $1,500 to $2,000 are Canadian $ or USA $?

** Have you consider the use market for an Anthem AVM 50, or AVM 40? ...Canadian breed. 

*** Or if you are shopping in the USA, about the Onkyo Pro PR-SC886P? Sweet Pre/Pro for only a thousand bucks USA.


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## daniel (Dec 31, 2006)

Lordoftherings said:


> Hi Daniel,
> 
> Because you're from Quebec, Canada, where do you intend to make your purchase(s)?
> 
> ...


* Funny, my wife always ask me the same question. USD of course:bigsmile:

** Anthem is on my short list. It's always easier to deal with a canadian based company. Classé Audio and Simaudio are there to. I had to deal with Simaudio, short driving distance, they are great. I heard that it's the same with Classé. There's also Bryston.

***I'm shopping in Canada and USA. I 've read good (when it's working) and bad thing ( we customer need support) about Onkyo/Integra processor. If I buy one, and have problem, how will be the customer support? It might be a great processor, but I will not take a chance (It might be my lost!).


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

The build quality and measurements of the Integra line is slightly better than the Onkyo line. I haven't heard either, but what I've read online has led me to believe the sound quality is good, but not great. I'm currently using a Marantz AV8003 and the sound quality is excellent IMO. The only caveat is you need a player that will decode to bitstream, because the AV8003 doesn't have enough CPU to both decode DTS-HD or DD-TrueHD and perform room correction.

My previous home theater setups included a Yamaha RX-V1400, then Emotiva DMC-1, and now Marantz AV8003. Each of these was a very significant step up in sound quality from the previous.


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## daniel (Dec 31, 2006)

While reading about processor, I've noticed that some are great for surround sound but only fair for 2 channels. Since I used a high end turntable ( with phono preamp), I have to take into account the 2 channels aspect.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

daniel said:


> While reading about processor, I've noticed that some are great for surround sound but only fair for 2 channels. Since I used a high end turntable ( with phono preamp)


I own an Onkyo and I can asure you the the Onkyo's and Integras and many others do a superb job with two channel playback They even have a pure direct mode which turns off all internal processing except what is necessary giving you the cleanest sound possible.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

daniel said:


> * Funny, my wife always ask me the same question. USD of course:bigsmile:
> 
> ** Anthem is on my short list. It's always easier to deal with a canadian based company. Classé Audio and Simaudio are there to. I had to deal with Simaudio, short driving distance, they are great. I heard that it's the same with Classé. There's also Bryston.
> 
> ***I'm shopping in Canada and USA. I 've read good (when it's working) and bad thing ( we customer need support) about Onkyo/Integra processor. If I buy one, and have problem, how will be the customer support? It might be a great processor, but I will not take a chance (It might be my lost!).


Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your response. I now understand better where you're coming from.
You probably already know about the Anthem Statement D2v/ARC1 Surround Sound Audio/Video Processor? I know, I know, it's $7,500 USA, but in my opinion it is THEE BEST.
That's why I suggested you the AVM 50 or 40 for now, from the used market; and then later when the funds are available... you got the picture...

Now, Simaudio, close to where you live, wow!, excellent my friend, excellent indeed.
Classe & Bryston are impeccable companies too. I see you know your stuff.

And you're right, these pre/pros from any of these companies above will do excellent in 2-channel Stereo sound (analog & digital), compared to the Onkyos or Integras. And you're also right about customer support, you'd be much better off with Anthem, Bryston, Simaudio, or Classe.

And for your turntable, just pick one that has one of the best Phono preamp section, or even a separate one if you have to.

* So now, for $2,000 USA, I'll go with a pre/pro from either Anthem, Simaudio or Classe (Bryston too).
But you know that you need to get an excellent deal, don't you?
Or you need to hit the used audio market (Audiogon or others from private sales).

** Now it's all up to you to do your research to find the best deal, because you surely know where and what to look for.

Good luck, and keep in touch for sharing your find.

Regards,
Bob

P.S. To keep in touch with reality, I would personally try to score a used Anthem pre/pro.


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## daniel (Dec 31, 2006)

Avm 40 and 50 look great and they keep popping on audiogon and canuck audio mart. They could be fine for now. In 2 to 3 years, I might buy something like "Anthem Statement D4v/ARC2 with HDMI 1.7" or classé ssp-1000 ( I know they do not exist).


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

daniel said:


> Avm 40 and 50 look great and they keep popping on audiogon and canuck audio mart. They could be fine for now. In 2 to 3 years, I might buy something like "Anthem Statement D4v/ARC2 with HDMI 1.7" or classé ssp-1000 ( I know they do not exist).


Now you're talking! :T That's excactly what I'll do myself. :yes: :shh:


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## kordon (Jan 9, 2010)

Lordoftherings said:


> Hi Daniel,
> 
> Because you're from Quebec, Canada, where do you intend to make your purchase(s)?
> 
> ...


Where is this for 1000 bucks?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Outlaw Audio should still have stock of the PR-SC886. Unfortunately, they are now selling it for around 1500 Dollars.

Usually there are B-Stock versions of the PR-SC886 and DTC-9.9 for around a grand. Even Onkyo was selling these refurbished units directly. The cool thing is many of these B-Stocks turned out to be brand new. This was however for the PR-SC885 which is the model prior.

There are not any must buy reasons if you can find a PR-SC885 or DTR-9.8 B-Stock or used. These should be under a grand. That being said, the PR-SC886 from Outlaw for 500 Dollars off is still an amazing deal on an SSP which is in a category unto its own. There is nothing within 2-3 thousand Dollars that offers the same feature set.
Cheers,
JJ


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## kordon (Jan 9, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Outlaw Audio should still have stock of the PR-SC886. Unfortunately, they are now selling it for around 1500 Dollars.
> 
> Usually there are B-Stock versions of the PR-SC886 and DTC-9.9 for around a grand. Even Onkyo was selling these refurbished units directly. The cool thing is many of these B-Stocks turned out to be brand new. This was however for the PR-SC885 which is the model prior.
> ...


What amp would i pair up with this Pr-SC886 and how much of an improvement over my B&K 305 would it be?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
You could go with something like Emotiva's XPA-5, which last I looked, was on sale for 699. It is a fairly powerful amplifier and great value. If you budget can allow it, a combo of an XPA-2 and XPA-3 would give you a good bit more power. The XPA-2 and XPA-5 share the identical toroidal power transformer (1.2 kVA) and the 5 channel only has 15,000 uf of filter capacitance. If 2 Channel is very important, I would go with the combo.

Another choice would be a used Parasound HCA-2205AT. I have one myself driving my Martin Logan Stage and Surround Martin Logan Vista's and it does an excellent job. The 2205 has a 2 kVA toroidal transformer and 150,000uf of filter capacitance. (XPA-5, 1.2 kVA 60,000 uf) 

Truly is a classic amplifier and is almost a clone of the current 5 thousand Dollar Parasound Halo A51.
Same designer and very close power design. The A51 has a 2.2 kVA transformer and 164,000uf of capacitance.
Cheers,
JJ


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## clubfoot (Apr 12, 2007)

Yep, I second the choice of the 2205AT as a power amp.


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## kordon (Jan 9, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> You could go with something like Emotiva's XPA-5, which last I looked, was on sale for 699. It is a fairly powerful amplifier and great value. If you budget can allow it, a combo of an XPA-2 and XPA-3 would give you a good bit more power. The XPA-2 and XPA-5 share the identical toroidal power transformer (1.2 kVA) and the 5 channel only has 15,000 uf of filter capacitance. If 2 Channel is very important, I would go with the combo.
> 
> Another choice would be a used Parasound HCA-2205AT. I have one myself driving my Martin Logan Stage and Surround Martin Logan Vista's and it does an excellent job. The 2205 has a 2 kVA toroidal transformer and 150,000uf of filter capacitance. (XPA-5, 1.2 kVA 60,000 uf)
> ...


Thank you for that, but you didn't answer the main part of my question: will this blow away my B&K?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Something like the Parasound would definitely have a massive amount more power than your B&K. The Emotiva would have more power as well.

As to it "blowing away" your B&K, all I can say is that a modern SSP with Room EQ coupled with a much more powerful amplifier will give you a much better sounding and more powerful HT. Moreover, having HDMI Processing would be a major upgrade. Many find that decoding True HD and DTS-HD sound much better over HDMI as opposed to using multichannel analog inputs. At this stage in the game, having a non HDMI AVR/SSP is definitely being not up to date. Non HDMI AVR/SSP's are worth Pennies on the Dollar. Even pre HDMI 1.3 AVR/SSP's are not worth that much. 

Depending on your Speakers and room size, getting a super high power amplifier might not be needed.
All I can say is Room EQ like Audyssey has made a major change in SQ in many applications. What Speakers are you using?


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## kordon (Jan 9, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Something like the Parasound would definitely have a massive amount more power than your B&K. The Emotiva would have more power as well.
> 
> As to it "blowing away" your B&K, all I can say is that a modern SSP with Room EQ coupled with a much more powerful amplifier will give you a much better sounding and more powerful HT. Moreover, having HDMI Processing would be a major upgrade. Many find that decoding True HD and DTS-HD sound much better over HDMI as opposed to using multichannel analog inputs. At this stage in the game, having a non HDMI AVR/SSP is definitely being not up to date. Non HDMI AVR/SSP's are worth Pennies on the Dollar. Even pre HDMI 1.3 AVR/SSP's are not worth that much.
> 
> ...


PSB Silveri

So you think I can't go wrong with the PR-SC886 and an Emotiva amp then?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I think it would work well. A combo of an XPA-2 and XPA-3 would give you even more power, But that would be more expensive. Regardless, the Onkyo Emotiva combo would be a major step forward.
Cheers,
JJ


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Onkyo have brought some amazing products to the masses over the past few years and were more or less the first company to bring the new HD Audio codecs in there range of amps and processors, with the 886 being the most popular, you really cannot go wrong with there products and I have a lot of respect for what they offer, VFM and performance really do stand out against it's competitors.


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## kordon (Jan 9, 2010)

i really appreciate the help as I don't want to buy something that I'll regret. I've wanted separates all my life and hope this is my time.

What is the Integra equivalent to this? And should i bother?

I was wondering if the Integra 40.1 is better than the 886?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The Integra 40.1 is actually not better than the 886. The 80.1 is. The 40.1 is lacking the Reon chip and XLR Connections and a few other things.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

Just to throw a wrench into things a little bit, The Integra is essentially the higher end brand of Onkyo. They are generally the same, but components inside are better quality. The nice thing about the 40.1 and the 80.1 is they added firmware upgrade via ethernet to their systems which is HUGE, in my opinion.

Just to point out the Integra DHC-9.9 was the Integra equivalent to the Onkyo 886. The 80.1 is the "replacement" to the 9.9.


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## kordon (Jan 9, 2010)

Jon Liu said:


> Just to throw a wrench into things a little bit, The Integra is essentially the higher end brand of Onkyo. They are generally the same, but components inside are better quality. The nice thing about the 40.1 and the 80.1 is they added firmware upgrade via ethernet to their systems which is HUGE, in my opinion.
> 
> Just to point out the Integra DHC-9.9 was the Integra equivalent to the Onkyo 886. The 80.1 is the "replacement" to the 9.9.


Well , now I don't know what to buy. What is the Onkyo equivalent to the 80.1? I'd like to buy online.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The replacement for the PR-SC886 is the PR-SC5507.
Cheers,
JJ


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## kordon (Jan 9, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> The replacement for the PR-SC886 is the PR-SC5507.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Thank you, and that has all the latest goodies?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Indeed. It is fully up to date and has everything the Integra 80.1 has. Really is a great SSP. You would save a great deal of money by purchasing the PR-SC886, but it is always nice to have the newest gear.

I would definitely rather have the 886 over the 40.1 however even without ethernet updates.
Cheers,
JJ


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## kordon (Jan 9, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Indeed. It is fully up to date and has everything the Integra 80.1 has. Really is a great SSP. You would save a great deal of money by purchasing the PR-SC886, but it is always nice to have the newest gear.
> 
> I would definitely rather have the 886 over the 40.1 however even without ethernet updates.
> ...


How much is the 5507 and where is it available online?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I believe it retails for 2500 Dollars. Here is a place which sells it : http://www.buyprogear.com/newstore/...=shop.product_details&product_id=711&Itemid=1

I have never done business with this place, but they definitely seem legitimate and are an Authorized Dealer. I again will say I am not sure Ethernet FW upgrades are worth almost 1000 Dollars more minimum.
Cheers,
JJ


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## kordon (Jan 9, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I believe it retails for 2500 Dollars. Here is a place which sells it : http://www.buyprogear.com/newstore/...=shop.product_details&product_id=711&Itemid=1
> 
> I have never done business with this place, but they definitely seem legitimate and are an Authorized Dealer. I again will say I am not sure Ethernet FW upgrades are worth almost 1000 Dollars more minimum.
> ...


Thanks, I tend to agree with you. I'll prob pull the trigger on the 886. A grand is a lot.


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

A premium of $1000 just for ethernet is pretty steep, but you might be able to find it for cheaper if you search (no guarantees). Personally, future pre/pros that I go with MUST have FW Upgrade via ethernet because I will not be stuck in a situation like I was before where I took a receiver into a service center for a "simple" FW upgrade and it took over 2 months to get the unit back.


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## daniel (Dec 31, 2006)

Update! Update.

I end up buying a Classe SSP-600.
It's far better than what I had before.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

daniel said:


> Update! Update.
> 
> I end up buying a Classe SSP-600.
> It's far better than what I had before.


Very very nice indeed Daniel, Classe really do make some outstanding products :T


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The Classe is truly one of the best SSP's in the World.
Congratulations. I am sure you are going to love it.
Cheers,
JJ


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## daniel (Dec 31, 2006)

daniel said:


> Avm 40 and 50 look great and they keep popping on audiogon and canuck audio mart. They could be fine for now. In 2 to 3 years, I might buy something like "Anthem Statement D4v/ARC2 with HDMI 1.7" or classé ssp-1000 ( I know they do not exist).


Seems like I couldn't wait.
Something funny:

Few years ago, I used to say that my sound system was the same value as our car.
Then we bought a second car. So I was now saying that my sound system have to be the same value as my car. I have two cars. :heehee: I must do something about this.
Now, it's done!!!!:::bigsmile:


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