# Upgrading 10 year old system



## tedpenn (Mar 25, 2010)

Hi,

I'm looking to upgrade an older home theater system and looking for some advice. The receiver is a Denon that is about 10 years old, and was pretty much their top of the line receiver at the time (can't remember the exact model number). The main problems I see with this receiver are:

- No HDMI switching
- No support for Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD
-WAY too complicated for anyone but me to use evidently, as everyone is afraid of the thing.

What I'd like to do is find (what I believe what is called in the home theater world) a "preamp" or "processor" to use as a front end. I'd like it to do my HDMI switching and decoding etc., and simply pass the 5.1 audio output to the Denon Receiver (which would no longer handle video, and just sit on one 5.1 input).

Something like emotiva umc1 would seem to fit the bill...?

I'm wondering if there is anything else out there I should consider (hopefully cheaper).

I should note that I work in pro audio (engineer) and would like to skip any recommendations for $10k Lexicon processors or $1000 power cables. I'm looking for simple and inexpensive.  Thanks.


P.S. Do Denon or any other manufacturers have trade-in programs for these types of situations?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Hi and welcome to the Shack!

Although the Emotiva umc1 is a decent PrePro, for the price you pay for that unit you could easily get a new Receiver with far more features and options that you will use. For example this Onkyo 3007 can be had for $850 and it gives you Audyssey DSX, THX Ultra2 Plus certification and the very best video processor available. It also has 140watts per channel and much larger power supply than any other receiver out there in its class.


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## tedpenn (Mar 25, 2010)

Hi- Thanks for the response, but the Onkyo you mentioned is over $200 MORE than the Emotiva I listed. And, I'd be buying power amps that I don't need...? Not looking for redundancy.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

But the Emotivia does not have a very good auto room eq and has very little for surround modes and features. You could step down to the Onkyo 1008 and get virtually the same features as the 3007 and you also get a receiver that is 3D ready . I understand your wanting to keep the Denon however your going to miss out on many new features that even the Emotivia does not have. I think the Denon has done its time and you should move on and not use it at all


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

If you're looking for something more cost effective and simple, the Onkyo 700 series is the lowest model with 5.1 outs. The 708 is currently about $550 shipped at accessories for less.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
There has been some great advice given already. I could not be happier with my TX-NR3007 and is now being blown out at Accessories4less for $849 (2199 MSRP) great AVR with 3 Power Supplies (1 for Amplifiers, 1 for Video and one for the rest), THX Ultra2 Plus Certification, Networked Capability, Audyssey MultEQ XT and much more.

The TX-NR708 is a great deal as well. The replacement 709 is a major step up with much better Video Processing (Marvell Qdeo) and Audyssey MultEQ XT as opposed to MultEQ in the 708. However, the 709 is selling for almost as much as the 3007 and does not have nearly as powerful of an Amplifier Section. Unless 3D is of a huge importance to you, I would seriously check out the 3007. I purchased mine late last Summer when HDMI 1.4 AVR's were readily available, but personally had no interest in 3D.
Cheers,
JJ


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## tedpenn (Mar 25, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> But the Emotivia does not have a very good auto room eq and has very little for surround modes and features.


I'm not interested in auto room eq. What "surround modes" and other features are you talking about?


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## tedpenn (Mar 25, 2010)

Guys, thanks for the input, but seriously, I'm really not interested in buying an integrated receiver. I listed the features I'm interested in. Here they are again:

-HDMI switching
-Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD
-DON'T need amps

That's really it! Simple and inexpensive. I mentioned that Emotiva that came fairly close, but I'm just not that familiar with consumer audio brands and models these days, and was looking for suggestions along those lines.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The Integra 40.2 might be perfect for you. I would also look at Marantz's AV7005. Both are available for well under 2000 Dollars and fit your criteria.
Cheers,
JJ


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

JJ, he's looking for something that costs less than the Emotiva UMC at @$699.

Tedpenn, please understand that there really is no answer for your question. Standalone Pre-pros are more expensive than AVRs (which are just a pre-pro and amp in one device. The simple fact is that a comparably spec'd AVR will cost less than a stand alone pre-pro. Think of it like saving money on the processor and getting the amps for free. That way you won't feel bad if you don't use them.

I think a while back there was a thread that was something along the lines of "WHy would anyone buy a standalone Pre-Pro when the same money will get you an AVR with more bells, whistles, and amplification?" I don't know that a conclusion was ever reached...balanced output were the closest it got.

Short version, if you must have a pre-pro, buy the UMC, but you should reconsider the AVR.

What is the model # of your denon?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

tedpenn said:


> I'm not interested in auto room eq. What "surround modes" and other features are you talking about?


With THX certification you get many very useful surround modes that adjust to make things sound more like the theaters do. This is not a gimmick and is very useful. Also if the day comes that you want to go 7.1 channels THX modes also expand a 5.1 signal to 7.1
Auto room EQ is a huge benefit and should not be discounted. It make a huge difference in the quality of the sound.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I could have sworn one of the Posts said a 2000 Dollar cap, but alas. If needing to keep it under or around 700 Dollars, I would get a used Onkyo Integra DTC-9.8 or 9.9. Both show up for around that price and offer a great deal more functionality than the Emotiva. Moreover, they both offer Audyssey MultEQ XT with the ability to upgrade to Audyssey Pro and have less issues with HDMI Handshaking.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I am in total agreement with Tony about THX. Their Post Processing really does bring something nice to the table. Moreover, the requirements especially for Ultra2 Plus, are fairly comprehensive and provide the end user with the confidence of knowing the Component has met some quite stringent Tests.

I am not sure where the anti THX bias began. I would surmise it was when THX watered down the requirements for THX Select. All the same, Flagships from Denon, Onkyo, Lexicon, Meridian, Yamaha, and more all offer THX Ultra Certification. Personally, I almost exclusively use THX Cinema for almost all TV and Movie Viewing.

This is certainly not to say that Components that are not THX Certified cannot be fantastic. Some could easily meet the criteria, but the Manufacturer did not choose to pay the License Fee.
Cheers.
JJ


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## tedpenn (Mar 25, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> With THX certification you get many very useful surround modes that adjust to make things sound more like the theaters do. This is not a gimmick and is very useful. Also if the day comes that you want to go 7.1 channels THX modes also expand a 5.1 signal to 7.1
> Auto room EQ is a huge benefit and should not be discounted. It make a huge difference in the quality of the sound.


I'm all for THX certification as it pertains to being a _specification_ (i.e. power, frequency response, design, and quality requirements). However, when it comes to these THX "modes" (I'm assuming you're referring to the Advanced Speaker Array (ASA) modes etc.), I'm not a fan, just as I'm not a fan of any other type of DSP "enhancement" at the consumer end. As an audio engineer, this type of post-processing DSP drives us absolutely crazy, as we have to mix for a moving target, so to speak. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to send a mix to a client to check out (and receive feedback on), only to find out that (unbeknownst to them) they've had their receiver on "Stadium Mode" the whole time.

The THX Loudness Plus feature, on the other hand, is quite useful, however not exactly groundbreaking, as it is the same basic concept (improved upon) as the "loudness" controls that used to appear on many receivers, to compensate for the varied response of the ear at different volume levels (see Fletcher-Munson curves).

These auto room EQ systems that have become popular, are indeed useful, but not nearly as effective as proper room treatments. But, in the absence of the latter, I suppose they provide a second-best cheap quick fix.

All that said, none of this has anything to do with my initial post. The features I'm looking for I have now listed twice. Let me be very clear: I am not at all asking you what features you think I _should_ be looking for. I am, however, asking if anyone knows if this type of equipment exists (beyond the one or two I've found). Given the nature of consumer audio, and the traditional range of "AVR's" on the low to mid end, and "separates" on the high end, perhaps what I'm looking for isn't very common.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

tedpenn said:


> However, when it comes to these THX "modes" (I'm assuming you're referring to the Advanced Speaker Array (ASA) modes etc.), I'm not a fan, just as I'm not a fan of any other type of DSP "enhancement" at the consumer end. As an audio engineer, this type of post-processing DSP drives us absolutely crazy


 I understand what you are saying however these modes are studio standard modes and are recognized as very good in the pro as well as consumer industry. THX certified theaters also use these modes.




> These auto room EQ systems that have become popular, are indeed useful, but not nearly as effective as proper room treatments. But, in the absence of the latter, I suppose they provide a second-best cheap quick fix.


 Unless you have a perfect room and I mean dimensions and speaker placement is perfect no room treatment is going to compensate to the degree that Audyssey Multeq XT will do for the sound.



> All that said, none of this has anything to do with my initial post. The features I'm looking for I have now listed twice. Let me be very clear: I am not at all asking you what features you think I _should_ be looking for. I am, however, asking if anyone knows if this type of equipment exists (beyond the one or two I've found). Given the nature of consumer audio, and the traditional range of "AVR's" on the low to mid end, and "separates" on the high end, perhaps what I'm looking for isn't very common.


 The gap between separates and consumer grade has been closed for about 3 years now the mass production of AVRs and the easy available high quality parts has made separates a dying art. It is no longer a "you get what you pay for" industry. Emotiva makes a good product however by the time they and other companies like them come out with a product they are a year if not more behind the receiver manufacturers and usually as in the UMC1 are plagued with bugs and tend to not work as intended. Many people who own the UMC1 cant even use the HDMI outputs as it wont pass the HDMI handshake signal properly.
We have given you many reasons why you should not go with a pre-pro but you seem to be stuck on the idea that a pre-pro is better and It is not unless you want to spend thousands your choice is clear.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

There are very few SSP's or Surround Preamps that cost less than 2000 Dollars new. There is the Emotiva, the Integra 40.2, and the Marantz AV7005. Otherwise, your best bet used is one of the earlier Onkyo Surround Preamps like the 9.8, 9.9 or 80.1.

I do not believe anyone is telling you what you need. Rather, just giving their personal experiences. If you could provide the maximum amount you feel comfortable paying, it would help greatly. Also, if you have an issue with purchasing used gear.


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## tedpenn (Mar 25, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> I understand what you are saying however these modes are studio standard modes and are recognized as very good in the pro as well as consumer industry. THX certified theaters also use these modes.


Can you provide a citation for these claims? Do you work in either of these industies (post-production pro audio, or theater company)?




tonyvdb said:


> Unless you have a perfect room and I mean dimensions and speaker placement is perfect no room treatment is going to compensate to the degree that Audyssey Multeq XT will do for the sound.


Dimensions are certainly important, but also the most expensive (and impractical) part of an existing room to change. Speaker placement, however, is free (aside from aesthetic constraints). Your claim that room treatments will not compensate to the degree that an auto room EQ would is simply incorrect. EQ is the _last_ tool a studio designer reaches for in treating a room, not the first. I should know, as I've just been through the process with a designer, and this would be readily confirmed by any other studio designer or acoustician you'd like to consult.



tonyvdb said:


> The gap between separates and consumer grade has been closed for about 3 years now the mass production of AVRs and the easy available high quality parts has made separates a dying art. It is no longer a "you get what you pay for" industry. Emotiva makes a good product however by the time they and other companies like them come out with a product they are a year if not more behind the receiver manufacturers and usually as in the UMC1 are plagued with bugs and tend to not work as intended. Many people who own the UMC1 cant even use the HDMI outputs as it wont pass the HDMI handshake signal properly.
> We have given you many reasons why you should not go with a pre-pro but you seem to be stuck on the idea that a pre-pro is better and It is not unless you want to spend thousands your choice is clear.


Everything you've said here makes perfect sense. However, I am not "stuck" on the idea of a pre-pro because I think it's "better". I just don't like paying for components or features I don't need. All other things being equal, a pro-pro that only does HDMI switching and audio decoding shouldn't be very expensive, and certainly not as expensive as an AVR with amps and loads of other features. BUT, I fully recognize that there are market forces and economies of scale at work which may make this not the case. In other words, if it's only the "high end" market that would be seeking out a dedicated unit that does what I describe, I may be stuck looking for an AVR. That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out.


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## tedpenn (Mar 25, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> There are very few SSP's or Surround Preamps that cost less than 2000 Dollars new. There is the Emotiva, the Integra 40.2, and the Marantz AV7005. Otherwise, your best bet used is one of the earlier Onkyo Surround Preamps like the 9.8, 9.9 or 80.1.


Thanks Jack- that's exactly what I was looking for. As I was afraid of, it seems I'm looking for something that isn't very common outside of the high end market (thus the AVRs being cheaper).



Jungle Jack said:


> I do not believe anyone is telling you what you need. Rather, just giving their personal experiences.


I asked if a very specific type of gear existed, with very specific features, and I start getting sold on the merits of "surround modes" and "room eq". That's what I'm referring to.



Jungle Jack said:


> If you could provide the maximum amount you feel comfortable paying, it would help greatly. Also, if you have an issue with purchasing used gear.


 It seems that a combination of an HDMI switcher and an audio decoder may get me there for a few hundred bucks. That's about what I'm looking to spend (and about what this should cost, barring any outrageous embedded licensing fees for Dolby, DTS, or THX). No problem with used gear.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Sounds like you've got the info you need. Good luck and let us know what you end up buying.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

tedpenn said:


> Can you provide a citation for these claims? Do you work in either of these industies (post-production pro audio, or theater company)?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I completely agree with Marshall. However, the fact remains that an AVR with Preamp Outputs is the most cost effective solution primarily due to your point of economies of scale.

The AVR market is cutthroat whereas SSP's are a far smaller niche. While you certainly could purchase an HDMI Switcher and Blu-Ray Player with Preamp Outputs, for not much more you could purchase an AVR with Preamp Outputs, Video Processing, Room EQ should you choose to engage it, Networked Connectivity for Streaming Music Files from your PC and much more. Moreover, the Lossless Codecs tend to sound better via HDMI as opposed to Multichannel Analog Inputs and an AVR has far more comprehensive Bass Management than a BDP has.

It seems you are pretty laser focused on separates. However, know it is not about paying more for Features you do not need like internal amplification. Rather, they are thrown in for free compared to the price of an SSP. It is the reason why the Owner of this Website uses an AVR primarily as an Prepro and many of the Staff here. Myself included even though I have not used a channel of AVR power in over a decade, I still use an AVR as an SSP. Regardless, good luck on your search.


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## Theresa (Aug 23, 2010)

I have a UMC-1 and it does everything I want. Its just the buggy software that makes me add conditions. If you cannot afford $1500 for a processor I would (and did) get the Emotiva.


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## Drewh01 (Jan 19, 2011)

I have had my UMC for the last 3 months and has been a really nice experience. It replaced a Pioneer 1120 that I only used as a pro/pro. Immediately I noticed a improved sound quality. So far no major issues, but I only use it for HT and SACD in my theater - no HDTV/XBOX yet as I have a separate area for those. Like many others i was waiting for the XMC, but decided to not wait any more. +1 for the UMC.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Drewh01 said:


> I have had my UMC for the last 3 months and has been a really nice experience. It replaced a Pioneer 1120 that I only used as a pro/pro. Immediately I noticed a improved sound quality. So far no major issues, but I only use it for HT and SACD in my theater - no HDTV/XBOX yet as I have a separate area for those. Like many others i was waiting for the XMC, but decided to not wait any more. +1 for the UMC.


Hello,
Drew, welcome to HTS. It would seem that the OP is content with adding an HDMI Switcher and Blu Ray Player with Multichannel Analog Outputs and keep his existing pre HDMI Denon AVR. I am so glad that the UMC-1 has worked out well for you.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Theresa (Aug 23, 2010)

deleted


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Wow. 599 is an awesome deal on the UMC-1. Given the price, it is hard not to at least Purchase it and see if it meets your criteria. With Emotiva having an excellent Return Policy and the fact the UMC-1 does not weigh a great deal, even return Shipping would not be that expensive in the event it does not work out.
Cheers,
JJ


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