# Living room layout design - advice?



## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

My wife and I will be closing on our first house at the end of June. I am looking for some feedback/advice on how to lay out the living room. Attached is a general idea I came up with, however, I am looking to get some specifics from you guys (TV and speaker placement/height). 

The interior wall at the top of the picture (right at the end of the chaise lounge) has a 6 inch archway that leads into the dining room which is also open to the kitchen... so you can see straight through the house from the front door (bottom wall, right corner in picture).

The archway is 6 inches deep on the left, however, the wall continues on the right, giving the room a width of 13'2'' for the 6 inches where both sides have the archway and 13'8'' as we continue into the dining room.

The window on the bottom is a full-size window while the two on the left wall are only a couple feet tall with 3 ft of wall under them.

The chaise lounge and sofa are a 2-piece section, so I cannot separate them.

As the arrows on the right indicate, I have a 7' span to work with for the TV.

Electronics:
Samsung PN58B550 - 58'' Plasma - It is currently being held at Best Buy until we take possession of the house. It can be exchanged for a different TV, but we really liked this particular unit so we plan to keep it.

Onkyo HT-S9100 THX "HTiB" - I have not purchased this yet, but figure it is pretty good "bang for my buck" and would be a good solution for mid-budget.

Inputs:
Nintendo Wii
Sony PS3
HTPC
Digital Terrestrial Antenna (maybe)

I would appreciate advice on speaker placement (including the sub... in the picture I have it in the lower right corner, firing into the corner) within the room, mounting (stands, directly on wall, adjustable wall brackets etc).

I am open to doing some drywall work to recess the front speakers/center into the wall since they are pretty sizable and I'd like the whole install to be as unobtrusive as possible (The Wife is concerned about speaker size). The main level is all hardwood but we will have an area rug in the living room (placement in picture is an estimate). I would like to make this room a general gathering place, so I plan to have the install look minimal. I will be running all my wires through the walls/attic/etc and might put the components in a closet behind where the TV will be.

Please feel free to ask any questions. I can draw up more/new ideas if need be. Thank you very much for your responses.

For some reason the image isn't embedded, url - http://lh6.ggpht.com/_LllDAwmLSC8/TA2Fxa1fjPI/AAAAAAAAFg0/UIYLGsjdVwQ/s800/living_room.jpg


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Hi and Welcome to the Shack!

Is the room fairly large? The Onkyo 9100 is a good choice as far as HTIB systems are concerned but if your space is larger than about 3000 cubic feet that may still be tough to fill it. The Samsung Plasma is a good choice particularly if your going to have some light in the room at all times.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

The living room is about 13 x 14 x 9 (dimensions are in the diagram). If you look at the diagram the top edge is an archway that opens into the dining room and on into the kitchen. That half of the house is pretty much completely open.

Living room into dining room to show archway -







http://lh6.ggpht.com/_LllDAwmLSC8/S8puPAaHmoI/AAAAAAAAFW0/arMdaKB8prE/s800/IMG_9585.JPG

Back wall that will have the couches/rears/maybe sub -







http://lh6.ggpht.com/_LllDAwmLSC8/S8puPY-yGlI/AAAAAAAAFW0/2cyGO1YSZ4Y/s800/IMG_9587.JPG

Front wall, showing doors involved -







http://lh5.ggpht.com/_LllDAwmLSC8/S8puQp2wkLI/AAAAAAAAFW0/EPPQevFHMRc/s800/IMG_9591.JPG

I've seen some mixed opinions on the 9100, however, it seems to be a good deal and a tough one to beat with putting together components.

Since that 1/2 of the house is so open and has a good amount of windows... and we're outdoors-type people... we plan to have a decent amount of light in the room... also no A/C and moving in in the middle of July. Currently we have an old projector setup in a small apartment... limiting us to watching/gaming after dark only. We're (hummm, I'm) ok with that since as my wife says I'm psychotically obsessed with being overactive until the day I die. However, I would like the option of having the news on during daylight hours or a game on for BBQs so the guests don't complain about my obscure music choices.

I feel like I've made good choices on the equipment, but if anyone knows of a good component option that's under $1k... please let me know.

I'm pretty sure the furniture has to be set up the way it is in the diagram so we're not closing off any walkways etc... I do need to keep it as a very functional room so The Wife doesn't come after me. I think the main concern at this point is placement/execution/installation. The room is 14'2'' wide so the viewing area will probably be about 12-13' from the TV. I'm not sure about height/angle of the TV (probably will center it on the 7'' wall between the door on the right wall and where the wall extends out 6'') and speaker placement/height... stands, brackets... is it a bad idea to recess bookshelf speakers into drywall? If the front wall is drywall and not plaster I'm open to doing some drywall work to recess them as much as possible if not flush. The Wife is concerned about speaker size and thinks I'm going "too far". She doesn't realize I could get giant floor standing speakers and watch her go into cardiac arrest.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

rpureber said:


> but if anyone knows of a good component option that's under $1k... please let me know.


Getting a good receiver, 5 speakers and a sub For $1000 is almost impossible unless you look used. There can be some great deals on used speakers and subs and that may be one way to get a better system without spending more.
Here are some speakers that are actually really good for the money but as you stated above your wife probably wont like the tower speakers.
For a sub this one would do you just fine.
and for a receiver this Onkyo 707 is also a great deal. 
This system would blow the doors off of the HTIB system and comes in just over your $1000 budget.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

Excellent information, thank you! I will look into all those components. The Wife is concerned with speaker cabinet size, but she's also concerned with my want to upgrade if I'm not satisfied. I could probably convince her to go up to around $1,200 if I promised I'd love it (and her, mostly her) forever... I mean, I did convince her to live in our '66 VW Bus for months so we could travel. It might help that the speaker set is "pretty", as she says.

So you would recommend trying to up my budget to a little over $1k and go the component route instead of the 9100? It seems like a good system, but I would rather spend a few hundred extra and get something better; I just want to make sure I'm not throwing my money after a minimal gain.

Oh yea, also... most of the content will be coming from a HTPC... so upscaling and audio conversion should probably be a focus.

Thank you.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I think the list I gave you will improve on the over all quality particularly the sub and the receiver are a big step up from what you get with the HTIB system.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

How does the receiver compare to the Denon AVR2310CI or 1910? Receivers are a little overwhelming for me.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Its better than both as it has THX certification giving you some very useful surround modes that you dont get on the Denon receivers. The Onkyo also has pre outs so if some time down the road you want to add an external amp to give you some more power you have that option. The 707 also has a very good power supply and amplification section and comes with Audyssey MultEQ auto room correction that automatically sets your speakers individual Equalizers and levels.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

The SXHTB+ will be available again in a couple days. They seem to get good reviews aside from a lack-luster center channel. They sound like a good deal, it's a little bit of a leap of faith since I've never heard of them etc etc... however, I like the idea of piecing together a component system instead of an Onkyo "HTiB".

Do you know anything about the Fluance subs? Their 12'' is $250 while the Elemental Designs 10'' is $350.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Here is another option. This is better than an HTIB. 

*Klipsch HD 500 5.1-Channel Home Theater System + Onkyo TX-SR508 Receiver $599.99 shipped at Newegg*







Newegg has the Klipsch HD 500 5.1-Channel Home Theater System for *$599.99* with free shipping. Enter promo code *FREEGFT68A* at checkout and the Onkyo TX-SR508 7.1-Channel Home Theater A/V Receiver will be added to your cart for free. *NEWEGG*

Next lowest price on PriceGrabber for Klipsch HD500 is $599.
Next lowest price on PriceGrabber for Onkyo TX-SR508 is $344.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

rpureber said:


> Do you know anything about the Fluance subs? Their 12'' is $250 while the Elemental Designs 10'' is $350.


The Fluance sub has a frequency response of 30 Hz and above and only has 200watts of output where as the ED sub is 300watts and a frequency response or 25-100Hz so the ED is a better sub.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

mdrake said:


> Klipsch HD 500 5.1-Channel Home Theater System + Onkyo TX-SR508 Receiver $599.99 shipped at Newegg


How would this compare to the setup purposed by tonyvdb?

Onkyo TX - SR707 (I'm not sure the differences between the 508 and the 707)
Fluance SXHTB+ (I actually like that these are larger speakers. Sound is all about air displacement)
Elemental Designs A3S - 250 sub

I realize this setup is about 2x the price... however, I would rather spend the extra money now... avoiding being spoken AT by The Wife when I want to upgrade later.

I am able to preview the Klipsch HD 500 at a local store... I've already listened to it powered by a Denon 1601. I don't remember my thoughts exactly. I remember thinking "good for the money", but not being entirely happy with the body of sound the satellites put out. I like the fact that I can walk across the street from my office to listen to the Klipsch setup... however, I have a feeling I might enjoy the fullness of the larger tower speakers (even if I'll also get the fullness of a "discussion" from The Wife).


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Tony's suggested system is a much better system but it is also more expensive. So, it depends on how much you are willing to spend. I would choose Tony's system but the one I posted is a good value. I hope I did not confuse you. I thought I should share the deal to give you more options.  

Matt


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Matts system is a fine system but if your looking for something that you wont need to upgrade two years down the road the more money (to a point) you spend the less likely you will need to do so.
The 508 is an ok receiver but does not have as much to offer and is underpowered in my opinion.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

mdrake said:


> I hope I did not confuse you. I thought I should share the deal to give you more options.


Not at all. I'm just trying to be as thorough as possible. There are so many products out there and it's a difficult decision to make when you can't preview most of them.

I like what I've read about the Fluance speakers and am currently looking into the Onkyo 707 and comparables as well as the Elemental Designs sub. So far, it sounds like Tony gave great recommendations at just a little above what I (read: The Wife) would like to pay. As I said previously... I'd hoped to pay around $800-900, however, I would rather fork out the extra few hundred bucks now. My wife and I are fairly conservative people and believe in purchasing the better product and doing the work right... the FIRST time.

Ugh... I wish I could flush mount the front towers into the wall to make The Wife happier about the size of them... but I don't know if that would affect the sound... plus I doubt the wall is deep enough to conceal any more than 4-5 inches of the cabinet.

Any advice on the subject of installation? I plan to wall mount the 58'' Samsung Plasma and run all the wires through the walls. I might put the components (AVR, PS3, Wii, Digital Antenna box and HTPC) in the closet of the office... it is just on the other side of the wall the TV will be mounted to. I'm not sure if the gaming remotes will have a strong connection though... plus the need to walk into the other room to change games doesn't sound like much fun. I might get an end table/cabinet to put all the components in and keep it in the back of the room by the couch... but I don't want to suffocate them and have overheating issues.

Big thanks you both of you for the responses.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

rpureber said:


> Ugh... I wish I could flush mount the front towers into the wall to make The Wife happier about the size of them... but I don't know if that would affect the sound... plus I doubt the wall is deep enough to conceal any more than 4-5 inches of the cabinet.


Its never a good idea to mount speakers in a wall (unless in wall designed) as this dramatically effects the sound quality. Towers and bookshelves shold be placed about a foot away from any walls and on stands in the case of a bookshelf (bookshelf speakers should never have been called that).



> Any advice on the subject of installation? I plan to wall mount the 58'' Samsung Plasma and run all the wires through the walls. I might put the components (AVR, PS3, Wii, Digital Antenna box and HTPC) in the closet of the office... it is just on the other side of the wall the TV will be mounted to. I'm not sure if the gaming remotes will have a strong connection though... plus the need to walk into the other room to change games doesn't sound like much fun. I might get an end table/cabinet to put all the components in and keep it in the back of the room by the couch... but I don't want to suffocate them and have overheating issues.
> 
> Big thanks you both of you for the responses.


Placing the receiver in an open space is always the recommended way to allow it to breath (heat is the number one killer of electronics). Remotes use infra red beams so gear that uses it should be placed in line of sight in order to work however there are radio frequency transmitters that can convert the signal so you can place the equipment anywhere within about 200ft.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

How does the Fluance set compare to Jamos? - http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/544674283/jamo-s-406-hcs-1-black

That set would be $135 less, but I don't know much about either setup.

Would there be a reasonable less-expensive alternative to the Onkyo 707? Spending $480 on an AVR makes it a pretty close 1/3 split between speakers, AVR and sub.

I'm about to look into the sub a bit more. $350 is kinda pricey, but sometimes you have to pay the price.

The Wife doesn't like the look of the Fluance set. She says the finish look cheesy.

I found that I could get the exact setup Tony mentions for $1,215 delivered to my door. I don't want to shave off $100 here and there if it's going to have a detrimental effect on the quality of the overall product, however, I also do not want to pay for features I may not need/use (AVR).

Thanks again for all the replies. This has been, and continues to be, extremely helpful.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

There are some members on here who have Jamo and they seem to be quite happy with them so thats another option however getting a good sub for less then the ED is almost impossible unless you go used. The Onkyo 707 is the lowest level receiver I recommend for anyone as you really start to loose features and quality if you spend less. You say that you dont want to pay for features that you wont use I guarantee that all of the features that the 707 has you will use except maybe the pre outs for an external amp but given what you get in the 707 besides that its a no brainier.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

Does anyone know of a direct comparison of the Jamo and Fluance sets? They seem to be pretty comparable aside from the Jamos being $135 cheaper and the wood -vs- black finish.

Since I'm going to set up a 5.1 system using a 7.1 AVR... does the 707 allow a 2nd zone with the two unused channels?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

rpureber said:


> Since I'm going to set up a 5.1 system using a 7.1 AVR... does the 707 allow a 2nd zone with the two unused channels?


Yes, the second zone can be powered by the two unused channels.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I did some reading and the Jamo towers only weigh 20.9lbs where as the Fluance weigh 33lbs That in its self is a big deal for me I would still go with the Fluance speakers.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

Ok... I think I'm going to go with Tony's recommended setup:

Onkyo 707
Fluance SXHTB+
Elemental Designs 10'' sub

This comes out to $1,215 delivered... a little over my initial budget, but I feel it'll yield better results than a slightly less expensive bookshelf setup.

Two questions:
1. Instead of the Fluance SXHTB+ get...
- SV10 High-Fidelity Three-way Towers - http://www.fluance.com/fluanhigthre.html - $300
- AVBP2 Bipolar Surround Sound Satellite - http://www.fluance.com/fluanbipsurs.html - $100
- AVSC Home Cinema Acoustic Center Channel - http://www.fluance.com/fluancemv670c.html - $70
- Is this overkill, are the surrounds and/or center channel any better/worse?

2. Should I try to find an Elemental Designs A5S - 300 used or would the A3S - 250 be enough? - http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_138&products_id=681

I know I'm getting even more up there in price and that's not where I want to go... just asking, I guess. I'm going to look around for some of this stuff used, though I prefer to have new...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Well I'll tell you the better speakers you go with the better it will sound. The package you listed above are a nice step up from what I originally listed If you can afford it I would defiantly go with them. The Bipolar Surrounds are very good. In that price range there is no such thing as overkill.
The used ED sub is a good choice also but may be hard to find.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

I found a set of AV938 for sale locally for $80. Are these similar to the SV10s? They seem like the same speakers, but in black. Is there a driver difference between the As and Ss?

Would I be better off with the bi-polar surrounds or the SX6s?

If I find a way to piece this together in an affordable manner, is there a different center channel I should look at?

I'm not finding much for used Fluance or eD stuff.

Thanks again!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The bi-polar surrounds would be a great choice over the SX6's They cover the room much better than a "normal" speaker would for surrounds.
The most important thing to remember is to stay with the same brand of speakers across the front LCR. As this keeps the imaging and sound stage even as pans go across the three main speakers.
The AV938's would work well if you can get a good price on them go ahead.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

Excellent, email sent to the seller of the AV938s.

Are these any different than the SV10s? They don't seem to be.

It seems strange that a $300 set of towers are up for $80. I don't worry about re-sale value for electronics... but wow... that's quite the de-valuing.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Speakers in general dont hold their value very much, for the first two or so years your Ok but after that the price goes down fast. I payed $1800 for my two main speakers back in 1994 and now they would sell for around $400. The thing with speakers is that if there are treated well they can last 20-40 years.
Make sure you can listen to them first before buying and bring a piece of your favorite music to test them with if you hear anything like rattling or distortion stay away.

I dont think there is much difference between the two speakers but I have not had time to look.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

Still waiting to hear back on the AV938s. Hopefully he'll get back to me this evening. If those don't work out I'll probably just stick with the SX HTB+. It seems like that is a really good choice... but the pieced together system would be better if it's possible.

Any knolwdge of the Cadence CSX-15? 500W powered 15'' sub.? - http://www.cadencehometheaterspeakers.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=2&idproduct=17

It's only $50 more than the Elemental Designs A3S - 250.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Thats a great deal for the Cadence given the specifications however I dont know much about that brand so cant comment other than that.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

I still haven't heard back from the guy the the used AV938s... you know, these days I'm surprised when people aren't on top of their email... especially when they're trying to sell something.

It's a tough choice between the Elemental Designs and the Cadence. $50 more seems to get you quite the upgrade. My brother and I used to have a automotive Cadence 10'' that we used as a "floater" sub for ourselves/friends. I remember it, surprisingly, sounding really good... even after we blew it. People used to assume we had 2 12''s in there.

I'm not sure what to do with the sub... I've seen that Cadence used to run sales, but there doesn't seem to be one going on now.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

Ok... I just got home with my new (to me) AV938s. I hooked them up to my old Sony receiver I'm using while we're in our apartment and played a few song picks. These things put out more bass than I thought they would. I haven't put in much listening time but I have to say, these things sound pretty good. I'm definitely happy with my purchase. I'm excited to order the center and the bi-polar surrounds to round out my matched 5.0 set.










One of the 10s is damaged. The bassist in my band just blew one of the 10s in his 4x10 so I think I'm going to pull my 10 and take it in with his and see how much it would be to get it fixed. I have a space JL W6 10 in storage, but I want them to match and I'm not willing to pull the other JL out of my car. I figure even a decent home-patch job on the Fluance 10 would be plenty fine once they have the proper cross over from the AVR.










Now I have to decide on the sub... Elemental Designs A3S-250 10'' for $350 or Cadence CSX-15 for $400? I don't know yet. I found a used Cadence CSX-15, however, it comes up to $375 shipped and I can get a brand new one for $400 shipped. I'm leaning towards the Cadence... I've always been a fan of 15s and with the built in 10s in the towers I figure there shouldn't be a gap in freq/ response. Why add a 3rd 10 if you already have two, right?

Fluance currently has the center available but not the bi-polar surrounds so I have to check on when they'll be available.

Thank you very much for the guidance. I am very happy with my front towers so far and look forward to completing the set and getting it all setup once we move into our house.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Congrats! looks like your set. Hopefully you can repair the 10"


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Congrats! looks like your set. Hopefully you can repair the 10"


Thanks! I'm fairly certain that I could patch the 10'' with a good, flexible silicone and wouldn't notice a difference... in case having it professionally fixed costs more than it's worth.

I placed an order today for the center and the bi-polar surrounds. I was told the surrounds won't be available for "at least two months". So, I guess I'll use my old Bose cubes until they show up.

I think I'm going to go with the Cadence CSX-15 sub. I found a used one on AVS Forum, but it'd be $345 shipped compared to $400 shipped direct from Cadence. Unless the seller wants to reduce the price I think I'll go new.

Now I just have to organize what wires I'll need and place a sizable monoprice order.

Would you recommend mounting the surrounds directly to the wall? Do you know if they have a keyhole? I'm not sure what sort of mount I will need, if any.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

Ok... I've gone to two weddings and am back at work ("work" work and getting ready for the house work, we close in 1.5 days... finally).

I ordered my Onkyo 707 from 6th Ave for $466 shipped and feel like I got a pretty good deal. My Fluance center is on it's way... the bi-polar surrounds are ordered... but back-ordered for 2+ months. I will use a set of Bose 100s for the time being.

I can't decide on the sub...
Cadence CSX-15
Elemental Designs
- A3S-250
- A2-300

It seems impossible to find a comparison of these. Any advice? It's a 14x14 room that opens into a 13x14 dining room. I want to order soon and just can't find any compelling information.

Thanks.


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## rpureber (Jun 8, 2010)

I decided on the CSX-15. I didn't feel like the A3S-250 would be enough and the A2-300 is kinda pricey and on long back-order.

I step into the house for the first time as it's owner tomorrow morning, all of the HT stuff should be here by Wednesday and we move in Sunday the 11th. I hope to have all the wires run by then.

I will post pictures.

Thanks for all the advice.


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