# Home theater add-on: 2nd sub or Room treatment?



## elbonsaikid (Mar 14, 2013)

Hi everyone - first post here. This is a great place by the way and I have learned a ton by just reading various posts. 

I have a dedicated hometheater using a 20'Lx20'Wx9'H bonus room (above garage). I have approx $1000 for improvement and wondering where it would be best spent. I have Klipsch's Rf-62 II for RF, LF, and center (RC-62 II), and pair of RS-42 IIs for the surrounds. Im using a single SVS-PB12-NSD sub and a new Onkyo TX-NR818 that supports Audyssey xt32. The Onkyo is still sitting in a box which I will setup shortly to replace a 12 year old Denon. 

I will run audyssey as soon as the receiver is setup. I guess the setup is used 70% for movies and 30% for music listening. 

The question becomes...would I be better off buying 4-6 corner bass traps and 4 broadband acoustic panels or investing in a second matching sub instead to improve low frequency distribution? The SVS sub, which I love and recently replaced an old boomy 15" Def-Tech, produces enough energy for me based on my volume levels and preferences. My setup sounds pretty good even though i know that i have uneven bass response as i walk around the various seating postions (my room being square and all). I have carpeted floors and a large window along one side and rear that are covered with curtains (not too heavy). Looking forward to your input. Thx!


----------



## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

elbonsaikid said:


> Hi everyone - first post here. This is a great place by the way and I have learned a ton by just reading various posts.
> 
> I have a dedicated hometheater using a 20'Lx20'Wx9'H bonus room (above garage). I have approx $1000 for improvement and wondering where it would be best spent. I have Klipsch's Rf-62 II for RF, LF, and center (RC-62 II), and pair of RS-42 IIs for the surrounds. Im using a single SVS-PB12-NSD sub and a new Onkyo TX-NR818 that supports Audyssey xt32. The Onkyo is still sitting in a box which I will setup shortly to replace a 12 year old Denon.
> 
> ...


Welcome to HTS! :wave:

I would go the room treatment route. The room is probably the single most important factor in realizing good sound. If you decide to go this route, I would definitely check out the Acoustics forum - lots of great info there and Bryan from GIK really helped me get my room all treated.


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Hello and welcome to HTS. I have a setup almost exactly as yours the only difference being the front L/R. That really is a tough call and I think you would be happy going either direction. Before I made the decision I would setup the new Onkyo and run Auddysey. You may be surprised by the improvement that alone nets you.


----------



## elbonsaikid (Mar 14, 2013)

Thanks for the responses gents! I will run audyssey and listen to the differences from multiple seating locations. If i decide to invest in improving the sound any further post EQ I'll drop some cash on the treatment. 

JBrax - did you consider or bi-amp the Klipsch front/LR using the Onkyo?

ALM - if I go room treatment can I expect to hear a difference with one corner bass trap 48h"x24w"x17d" in each corner and 4 acoustic panels at reflection points? How far did you have to treat before you noticed a difference?


----------



## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

elbonsaikid said:


> Thanks for the responses gents! I will run audyssey and listen to the differences from multiple seating locations. If i decide to invest in improving the sound any further post EQ I'll drop some cash on the treatment.
> 
> JBrax - did you consider or bi-amp the Klipsch front/LR using the Onkyo?
> 
> ALM - if I go room treatment can I expect to hear a difference with one corner bass trap 48h"x24w"x17d" in each corner and 4 acoustic panels at reflection points? How far did you have to treat before you noticed a difference?


I noticed a difference with each successive implementation. Now, I was not doing any REW measurements, but you could really hear subtle shifts in sound. Probably the largest difference - low end absorption. I just did front corners and my soffits are 20-200.


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

elbonsaikid said:


> Thanks for the responses gents! I will run audyssey and listen to the differences from multiple seating locations. If i decide to invest in improving the sound any further post EQ I'll drop some cash on the treatment.
> 
> JBrax - did you consider or bi-amp the Klipsch front/LR using the Onkyo?
> 
> ALM - if I go room treatment can I expect to hear a difference with one corner bass trap 48h"x24w"x17d" in each corner and 4 acoustic panels at reflection points? How far did you have to treat before you noticed a difference?


I tried it at one time but to be honest it made no difference as far as I could tell. The Klipsch Reference line are extremely efficient speakers and therefore require very little power.


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

A problem in any room, especially one with symmetrical dimensions, is that bass is strongest at the room boundaries, and has a “dead zone” in the dead center of the room. You can hear (and/or measure with a SLM) the difference in volume with a pink noise test tone as you move from a wall towards the center of the room.

I’ve never used them, but my understanding is that bass traps is about the only remedy for this situation, and even them might not eliminate it entirely. Regardless, I expect it would be more effective than adding additional subs. Additional subs are often used to deliver more consistent _frequency response_ from one location to the next, but I doubt they’ll do anything for the “hot boundary/dead zone” situation.

Regards, 
Wayne


----------



## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

+1 on the bass trap suggestion. I have a 12x20x8 room with 4 HSU ULS-15 subs and all Klipsch Heritage for the main and surround channels. The traps made a huge difference in overall frequency response and "speed" of the subs. By speed, I mean that transient sounds, like bass drum whacks on music or special effects on movies, like gunshots or explosions, are more defined with less ringing added by the room.

Many of our members DIY their traps. If you prefer ready-made, the GIK Monster traps are what I use and they perform very well.


----------



## elbonsaikid (Mar 14, 2013)

Thanks all for the input. I ran audyssey and noticed an improvement in the sound especially when playing movies near reference - good bye harshness. Originally I preferred hearing my CDs in pure audio mode but since Audyssey some of the other sound modes sound just as good with stereo mode sounding a bit fuller to me.

I have decided to add some treatment to my room nonetheless. I know ignorance is bliss but understand that treatment will only make my room sound better. I have since ordered 8 corner bass traps to cover the four corners and 6 acoustic panels (24"x48"x2) for the mids and highs.


----------



## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Nicely done, this should be a big help with your room. Let us know what you think about the sound before and after you run audessey.


----------



## elbonsaikid (Mar 14, 2013)

Tonto said:


> Nicely done, this should be a big help with your room. Let us know what you think about the sound before and after you run audessey.



I guess you are looking for my impressions after the treatment to compare with the current untreated room with Audyssey XT32 calibrated environment?

I can do that but it will be a subjective impression since I will not perform any sound measurements due to recent room investments including the 1600.00 just spent on acoustics (would need to purchase sound card, etc). I like what audyssey XT32 did with my room pre-treatment. It definitely did away with a lot of the bass peaks as far as i can tell. Can't tell definitively if it fixed alot of my nulls however. Pre-EQ, I had a hard time listening to my movies at anything above -12db reference due to harshness perhaps from a combination of bright untreated room, articulate and sensitive Klipsch speakers, and/or soundtracks that were recorded for treated large spaces. I can now watch my movies at -5db without issues and my bass seems improved as well. My kids and wife commented on the sound when watching the Green Lantern recently. The bass never became a distraction but definitely had its impact on various scenes.

Music wise, (CD audio on my OPPO-93 player and Pandora via Onkyo) I preferred the Pure audio mode of my RCVR over every other sound mode. Post EQ I like the stereo mode slightly better and especially enjoy the Prologic II music sound mode. Pure audio now sounds slightly muffled in comparison. I also hate to be tied to a center location for stereo imaging especially since my kids enjoy to sit and listen with me. But now, Prologic II sound mode appears more "open", provides better envelopment and physically anchors the image to the center speaker providing consistent imaging for all of us and freeing me from sitting in the center sweet spot. The rear surrounds come into play but isnt obnoxiously present like it is in 5 channel stereo mode. However, I did have to tone down the bass a tad in prologic II mode since the sound mode boosted it more than felt natural.

I will also give my impressions when the acoustics are setup. The bass traps and panels have recently shipped.


----------



## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

elbonsaikid said:


> Can't tell definitively if it fixed alot of my nulls however.


You'd need a second subwoofer to do that effectively. A 20-foot wide room would result in nulls at 28Hz and 56Hz. Placing a pair of subs, each a quarter of room width from the side walls, would prevent those modes from being excited and knock out those nulls for all seats on your couch.


----------



## elbonsaikid (Mar 14, 2013)

Tonto said:


> Nicely done, this should be a big help with your room. Let us know what you think about the sound before and after you run audessey.


Ok - put in the bass traps (8 corner 24"x48" superchunk style from ATS acoustics along with 2 rear 24"x48"x4" panels and re-ran Audyssey XT32. Overall, bass was quicker and audibly improved the speed and sound of my music at low frequencies. No sense of boominess at either my first row (12 ft. from front wall) or second row (17.5 ft. from front wall on 8" riser). 

Careful listening still reveals slightly thicker bass at the rear row which makes sense since the front row sits closer to the middle of my 20' 6" long room and the rear close to a boundary. I occasionally get a sense that the bass in the first row is a little thin compared to the rear. A friend that has listened to my room thinks I'm splitting hairs. It appears that Audyssey helped eliminate the peaks and the traps improved the speed of my bass but neither addressed the nulls. 

So - did my $1100 investment in bass traps improve my sound drastically? No. Was it worth it? Perhaps. I say that cause the question arises if I would have been better served purchasing a second sub. Interesting though, the last thing I put up were two 24"x48"x2" panels at the first side reflection points from the first row. I decided to change my sound mode from Prologic II to stereo for a CD I was listening to after I leaned the panels on the reflection points and suprise, suprise, image was huge in comparison :clap:. Big bang for the buck there! Putting treatment in your room at the first side reflection points is a big no brainer if you want to improve imaging - from my real world perspective of course.

I know I said recently i wasn't interested in measuring my room but changed my mind and ordered some gear to use REW. I want to target the bass disparity that exists between my two rows. I'm almost certain a null or two are at play here and understand that speaker placement and possibly a second SVS sub are my next logical choices since modifying the seating position of the first row is not an option. I also want to measure the bass response with/without the corner traps to see what they did for me. I also need to ID where the optimal spot for my single sub is and if a second sub would improve the first row bass response. I will be limited to the front wall for positioning however. 

Thank you all for contributing your thoughts and input.


----------

