# Speaker Wire Suggustions



## Dream Theater (Sep 14, 2014)

What size and type of speaker wire should I use for my home theater? I will be running a 5.1 setup and eventually Atmos when I upgrade. I want to use a wire that is well rounded for any speaker/ receiver combo I use. I definitely don't want anything to small , but also nothing to large. Any suggestions would be great on a good cost affective option. Thanks


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

What lengths? What routing (through attic, walls, basement, soffit, surface mount,etc)?

cheers


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## Dream Theater (Sep 14, 2014)

ajinfla said:


> What lengths? What routing (through attic, walls, basement, soffit, surface mount,etc)? cheers


With my setup I will have visible access to all wires except for one of the rear speakers which will be dropped down a wall from a drop ceiling. The longest run will be somewhere between 20-25 feet.


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## BD55 (Oct 18, 2011)

Monoprice! 12 AWG should be fine for nearly anything. These are CL2 rated for in wall installation, and Monoprice is awesome for the prices they have.


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

Monoprice 12 awg wire. Call it a day. Dont fall for more expensive wire , no need


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

I'd consider shielded pairs, at least for the one long run (reduces potential RFI/EMI problems). Shielded cable is also more important if you run it parallel with power cords. If you don't care, or don't want to dress your cables, go with shielded.

In any case, I'm +1 for what others posted about being wary of fancy claims. Don't succumb to the mindset that more expensive is necessarily better. As this article mentions, look for flexibility, termination quality, connector reliability, etc.

You do get what you pay for (up to a point).


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## orion (Sep 18, 2009)

I used 12ga monoprice for my build and I was pleased with everything they sent. I used CL2 for the inwall applications, Its worth a few extra bucks for the peace of mind


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## Dream Theater (Sep 14, 2014)

There should be no reason I couldn't use CL2 in and out of the wall, correct ?


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

Dream Theater said:


> There should be no reason I couldn't use CL2 in and out of the wall, correct ?


none whatsoever


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## Skytrooper (Feb 1, 2014)

You can use CL2 in or out wall. I did for my center and fronts. The other 4 are in wall for my 7.2 system. I also have 2 more ran to my patio. 

My choice was Honeywell Audacious 14 gauge. It was about 100$ for 500 feet at the time. It has since risen in cost by 40$ from tselectronics. High strand count and very easy to work with. 

12 gauge cable can sometimes be a overkill. It can be difficult to use in some connectors. If you don't absolutley need it, buy something smaller.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

BlueRockinLou said:


> I'd consider shielded pairs, at least for the one long run (reduces potential RFI/EMI problems). Shielded cable is also more important if you run it parallel with power cords. If you don't care, or don't want to dress your cables, go with shielded


signals going to the speakers are not affected by RFI/EMI interference, so shielding is not necessary. 14awg lampcord from home depot is even sufficient. If running inside walls or floors your going to want it to be in wall rated.


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## GCG (Aug 22, 2013)

On the long run with 12ga you may see about a 0.45dB signal loss. That assumes 8Ω speakers. At 4Ω that goes up to nearer to 0.66dB. Your AVR will easily compensate.

Per this SS from TNT Audio. http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/wirecalculator.xls


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I use 12g lamp cord from Lowes. It is copper and works perfectly.


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## Krelldog (Oct 12, 2009)

BlueRockinLou said:


> I'd consider shielded pairs, at least for the one long run (reduces potential RFI/EMI problems). Shielded cable is also more important if you run it parallel with power cords. If you don't care, or don't want to dress your cables, go with shielded.
> 
> In any case, I'm +1 for what others posted about being wary of fancy claims. Don't succumb to the mindset that more expensive is necessarily better. As this article mentions, look for flexibility, termination quality, connector reliability, etc.
> 
> You do get what you pay for (up to a point).




My feelings as well, the prices on cables are very amusing. I needed a new hdmi cable, about 2 feet long to complete the AVR to Blu-ray player connection. I ended up going with an Audioquest Carbon.....$165 bucks new. My friend went to the next level up....the Audioquest vodka, ( 2 feet long )...for $265 new. 

After opening the box of my Carbon Hdmi cable I could see that my decision wasn't completely foolhardy...

The build quality of the Carbon was very impressive, a nice thick cord, beautifully crafted, connectors built like a tank, etc, etc...I am happy with the purchase. 

Now does this cable sound or visually perform superior to a budget cable? NO
Does the Carbon look cooler and of a superior build quality? My opinion is YES 

So essentially, I believe cables should be placed last in the priority column. Enjoy!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> signals going to the speakers are not affected by RFI/EMI interference, so shielding is not necessary. 14awg lampcord from home depot is even sufficient. If running inside walls or floors your going to want it to be in wall rated.


Apologies. I was thinking of EMI/RFI interaction with much more sensitive line-level signals carried through interconnects.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Krelldog said:


> ...<snip>... So essentially, I believe cables should be placed last in the priority column. Enjoy!


Audio jewelry? Definitely. Sound improvement? Maybe; but more likely coloration used as a tone control to compensate for shortcomings elsewhere in the system.


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## GCG (Aug 22, 2013)

12ga for most everything. For VERY long runs to 4Ω or less speakers I could go to 10ga - maybe 8ga. For medium to long runs on 2Ω passive subs I can see going to 6ga especially if the power levels are high enough. For speaker wire the size of the pipe matters the rest is snake oil, IMO. It all depends on how much of the amplifier power you want to go to sound and how much in heating the wires.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

waste of money going any bigger than 12awg for any length unless your talking more than a 1000ft run. 12awg speaker wire can handle more than 2500watts continuous with peaks double that.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Apologies. I was thinking of EMI/RFI interaction with much more sensitive line-level signals carried through interconnects.


 My former neighbor (rest his soul), was a HAMM radio operator. He had antennas everywhere! Over the years, we had lots of trouble keeping his tx out of my gear(TV, speakers subs). He was very gracious in helping. The last one was replacing sub cables that kept him out of the sub channel. I ended up with quad shielded rg6. Speaker cable was the only place he wouldn't get into. 
Nothing like your neighbors muffled voice coming through your subs at 6:30 in the morning!!! Wakey wakey!


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## GCG (Aug 22, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> waste of money going any bigger than 12awg for any length unless your talking more than a 1000ft run. 12awg speaker wire can handle more than 2500watts continuous with peaks double that.


It can handle it no doubt. However for low impedance drivers such as 2Ω subs the series resistance on even medium runs is high enough for it to have a quantifiable effect. Here's a graph showing a driver with an Re of 1.6Ω. Safe guess on low dynamic impedance I'll place at 0.8Ω. On a 20ft run you can see how much of the amplifier power is developed in the driver and how much is developed in the wire.


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## GCG (Aug 22, 2013)

Same system with a 6ga speaker wire.


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## GCG (Aug 22, 2013)

And a 12ga 20ft run to an 8Ω speaker. Best guess low impedance 4Ω.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Im almost 100% certain the OP is talking about full range average speakers, not subs. Even if those graphs are accurate you would not audibly hear any difference.


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## GCG (Aug 22, 2013)

Agreed, I prefaced my first post to address that. I just added the other to be complete. As for the audibility I'd be inclined to agree as well. Just turn the gain 3-4 more degrees clockwise. But for me I want every watt I paid for going to the speakers not warming the carpet or attic insulation. I worked hard for those watts.

All that said my sub has a plate amp and I have 12ga throughout elsewhere.


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## bxbigpipi (Feb 2, 2012)

Just received some Sewell silverback banana plug 12 gauge speaker wires and they are heavy duty. They look good too! Just waiting for my klipsch rf 62 ii's and rs 41 ii's to connect to my demon s900w.


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## mark10000 (Oct 12, 2014)

I used to be in the OFCC cables sound mostly the same group, but some of the cables I have heard do make a huge difference. I have noticed that when a stiff insulator is used that there is a good difference in the sound especially in the mid-range and the treble is not harsh.

It is a good few years since I have done cable testing, I will need to again soon.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

539 vacuum-insulated hyper-thin flat Litz conductors in counter-spiralled with 18 floating carbon shield layers supplied with 150VDC biased magnetic field (300 hours break-in required). 

Woooooooooooooooooo Hooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Can I get 7of those timbre matched please?


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## GCG (Aug 22, 2013)

Don't forget the skin effect compensation coatings.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I think that will put them out of my reach...:-(


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## redsandvb (Dec 2, 2009)

Dream Theater said:


> What size and type of speaker wire should I use for my home theater? I will be running a 5.1 setup and eventually Atmos when I upgrade. I want to use a wire that is well rounded for any speaker/ receiver combo I use. I definitely don't want anything to small , but also nothing to large. Any suggestions would be great on a good cost affective option. Thanks


I used these Pre-terminated ones (locking banana plugs) from Bluejeans for my front three, http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm

And 12ga Monoprice for my surrounds


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## DocCasualty (Apr 4, 2011)

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable

I'm guessing on the info you provided that 16 AWG will be more than adequate. Monoprice, Lowes, Home Depot, Radio Shack . . . wherever you find the best price. CL2 will assure you in-wall rating.


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## ST86 (Jun 11, 2014)

I use 13 ft runs of 10 AWG Belden 5T00UP (Grey Jacket) from Blue Jeans Cables for my mains and center channel. For the rear surrounds 50 ft runs of 10 AWG Wired Home from Parts Express.

The bannana plugs from Blue Jeans can accomondate the 10 AWG wire. 

Very happy with the wire.

Cheers,

Ed (ST86)

P.S. Dream Theater. Love your username. I am a huge fan of the band.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

http://www.morrowaudio.com/sp1.htm

Morrow Audio cables are a great option.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

$140 for a 2meter pair  They look nice but I made my own cables for $30 that are twice as long and look and work just as well.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> $140 for a 2meter pair  They look nice but I made my own cables for $30 that are twice as long and look and work just as well.


Would you rather me recommend something from this list?

http://www.musicdirect.com/c-647-sp...sortdirection=DESC&perpage=24&BrandFilterID=0


Quality cables cost. Morrow Audio are inexpensive. They are not for everyone... or consumers.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Bmxer241 said:


> Quality cables cost.


"quality cable" I dont think so....but if you have money to burn that gives you no audible improvement I guess the more power to you.
Lamp cord from Home depot will give you the same results as long as its the proper gauge.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> "quality cable" I dont think so....but if you have money to burn that gives you no audible improvement I guess the more power to you.
> Lamp cord from Home depot will give you the same results as long as its the proper gauge.


Sorry you feel that way. 

When it comes to electronics cables make a difference. I'm a master electrician/ petrochemical Instrumentation and believe me... sensitive electronics require good cables, typically means alot of shielding and RFI suppression.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Bmxer241 said:


> and believe me... sensitive electronics require good cables, typically means alot of shielding and RFI suppression.


For interconnects maybe but RFI suppression does not effect speaker cables.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> For interconnects maybe but RFI suppression does not effect speaker cables.


Correct.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Google "Do high priced speaker wires make a difference" and most of the results are that it makes no difference as long as you have the correct gauge for the distance your running (the only ones who say it does are the high end cable manufacturers themselves). Even a coat hanger will give the same results in a blind test that was done on one site. 

I have what would be labled an "audiophile" level speaker and would challenge anyone to prove to me that it would make an audible difference over what im using now for speaker wire.








.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Bmxer241 said:


> http://www.morrowaudio.com/sp1.htm
> 
> Morrow Audio cables are a great option.


I would be interested in what how you reconcile the very unusual design philosphy of the Morrow cables with the rest of the industry. Solid core, small diameter, minimal insulation...in many ways departing from most audiophile cables. Is there any evidence of the principles that are described such as mV diode effects? I have never seen a discussion of this in my several decades of education and experience in the electronics industry other than in some audiophile contexts but never in any real research or with any data to back it up.

I do believe there can be differences in speaker wire, but the differences IME are very small and not consistent with the claims of vendors. There might even be some break in effects with certain cables, but I have yet to see any measurements that back up any such claims. Bottom line, I am very skeptical of the veracity of most speaker wire claims of sonic differences. I am willing to be open minded but nothing I have seen yet amounts to much more than claims and testimonials from customers. In the case of Morrow, I have to give them credit for good marketing and use of the old "prediction-proof" technique of telling someone what they will hear in great detail. It is a well documented effect that such statements create very effective expectation bias.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I have a question. Leonard, your a wealth of knowledge. Let's say vendors claims of xyz are valid. Wouldn't all of that turn moot as soon as the signal passes through the speakers binding posts, since speakers almost always contain basic stranded wire between 16 an 12 gauge? In other words, "a man, the clothes do not make ".


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

I can honestly say I haven't been able to identify the difference between two cables of fair and high quality. 

I will say that cables (IEC/RG/Optical/et al...) construction quality has varied substantially between cables. This can result in a kink in coax or a short in a fitting.

These issues will instantly affect your PQ/SQ but this is not a function of performance as much as it is a function of durability. 

Just my 2¢


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

does anyone here use a processor and/or receiver as a processor and each channel tied into mono blocks and/or separate multichannel amp?

If so then just pick up a set of morrow cables... MA1 interconnects one for each channel... from the processor to the amp. $200 for 5 - 1 meter cables.

There is a reason they offer a 60 day return no questions asked. You get to demo the cables and if you cannot hear then return.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

lcaillo said:


> I would be interested in what how you reconcile the very unusual design philosphy of the Morrow cables with the rest of the industry. Solid core, small diameter, minimal insulation...in many ways departing from most audiophile cables. Is there any evidence of the principles that are described such as mV diode effects? I have never seen a discussion of this in my several decades of education and experience in the electronics industry other than in some audiophile contexts but never in any real research or with any data to back it up.
> 
> I do believe there can be differences in speaker wire, but the differences IME are very small and not consistent with the claims of vendors. There might even be some break in effects with certain cables, but I have yet to see any measurements that back up any such claims. Bottom line, I am very skeptical of the veracity of most speaker wire claims of sonic differences. I am willing to be open minded but nothing I have seen yet amounts to much more than claims and testimonials from customers. In the case of Morrow, I have to give them credit for good marketing and use of the old "prediction-proof" technique of telling someone what they will hear in great detail. It is a well documented effect that such statements create very effective expectation bias.



Look I'm not expert by any means. All I can say is my own experience from listening on my uncles system. I've heard the difference between all sorts of cables. His system however is very sensitive. He built a dedicated listening room with full acoustical treatments.... maybe this helps to hear a difference, or it could be the electronics.

He's even gone as far as running a seperate power source to his audio equipment through an isolation transformer and does not use circuit breakers but rather a custom panel he built using all copper buss material and bussman fuses in lieu of circuit breakers. He has #8 wiring 120v wiring and a dedicated circuit for each of his equipment. He still has his Krell FPM 300s but he primarily uses his audio research ref 600s with an audio research tube pre amp and I know his LP table alone cost 32k. I'm not trying to brag based on his investment or anything and I cannot explain to you why... but the "space" and "isolation" sound improves with different cables.

One thing to note... if all the equipment is off and you listen right after turning the system on the sound is not as good as the system being on for an hour fully warmed up. I could hear that too.

I wish I wasn't true but he made a believer out of me.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Your experience is what it is. I have been in many situations where I thought I heard a difference and later found that upon more objective comparisons I could not. In my experience, the differences in cables and amps are far less significant than many believe, and if you make blind comparisons, you can convince most people that they are hearing most anything. I have also measured differences in speaker wire, but only in very long runs. I am sure there are some measurable differences in some wires, but I would not expect them to correlate with the objective assessments that most people make.

I am very interested in the reasons things sound different. In my experience, aside from speakers and room conditions, expectation is likely the biggest difference on could document.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

lcaillo said:


> In my experience, aside from speakers and room conditions, expectation is likely the biggest difference on could document.


Adequate power would be another IMO.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

willis7469 said:


> I have a question. Leonard, your a wealth of knowledge. Let's say vendors claims of xyz are valid. Wouldn't all of that turn moot as soon as the signal passes through the speakers binding posts, since speakers almost always contain basic stranded wire between 16 an 12 gauge? In other words, "a man, the clothes do not make ".


This is a superb point. It does not end at the speaker ends or the cable ends... there are significantly "cheaper" wires from those speakers terminals and RCA/XLR terminals to the amp board and crossover/driver. The speaker and cable manufacturers can't control that part.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Sonnie said:


> This is a superb point. It does not end at the speaker ends or the cable ends... there are significantly "cheaper" wires from those speakers terminals and RCA/XLR terminals to the amp board and crossover/driver. The speaker and cable manufacturers can't control that part.





willis7469 said:


> I have a question. Leonard, your a wealth of knowledge. Let's say vendors claims of xyz are valid. Wouldn't all of that turn moot as soon as the signal passes through the speakers binding posts, since speakers almost always contain basic stranded wire between 16 an 12 gauge? In other words, "a man, the clothes do not make ".


As a master electrician we deal with the same scenario with light fixtures, motors etc where the "whips" internal are of small diameter compared to the branch circuit.

The fact is... longer runs of cabling have more effect due to resistance. The short runs are actually within limit and have little affect although this is why along with the drivers/crossovers that you have speakers that make a great impact on the sound. Higher quality speakers will typically use better voice coils, crossovers and larger diameter wiring. Even amps/etc will have small wiring. Now I'm no engineer so I cannot comment on all the other sorts of factors that are involved.... but, for the small less than a foot wiring internally the length does not do much affect.... although I would prefer better.

For the speaker wing your talking any added resistance in cabling by either length and/or size would increase impedance robbing power away from the drivers. This is the reason why there are general sizing charts on wattage of speakers vs. size of cable vs. cable length.

One of the biggest factors is removing all of your audio equipment power source from the supply to your home and instead run through an isolation transformer like hospitals will do. There are many items in your home that create harmonic problems (electronic ballasts for fluorescent
lighting, personal computers, printers, UPS, anything motor equipped) and isolating the power source helps. This is a measurable fact.... now how much audible you can tell is still a debate.

I'm still in the works for my system... I'm only running NHT Superzero's for now and funds invested in other equipment means I'll be left with only enough funds for speaker cable to purchase the Belden 10g speaker wiring. For the output/distance of my system it will be adequate....

At some point I will upgrade the front 3 channels to morrow audio cables and see if there is a difference in my own testing/room but only after I install acoustical treatment and get my room dialed in.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I couldn't do an isolation transformer, but I did pull 4 separate home runs of 12/3 out of a sub panel with its own ground rods. All my gear is plugged into an APC h10. I have no way of knowing/measuring if my efforts were worth it but I understand enough to make me think so. And I sleep better too. Lol not the best but better than many.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

willis7469 said:


> I have a question. Leonard, your a wealth of knowledge. Let's say vendors claims of xyz are valid. Wouldn't all of that turn moot as soon as the signal passes through the speakers binding posts, since speakers almost always contain basic stranded wire between 16 an 12 gauge? In other words, "a man, the clothes do not make ".


Even in a world where seemingly fantastic claims are true, I think we have to continue to consider that any one part is just that, part of the entire system. If binding posts did make a difference, I don't think it would negate other improvements, but introduce a relatively small effect. But how the two components interact might be important. For instance, if there are imperfections in the surfaces of contact we might have many different contact points with different resistances and surface area. Additionally, the varying spaces could oxidize differently creating additional resistance and geometries of transfer. Who knows what the effect would be. Maybe large contact areas are actually bad?

My point is that you can think yourself into many issues that in actual effect may be meaningless. But you can bet that if I started selling some high precision machined connector system I could come up with lots of speculative reasons that it might have x, y, and z effects on the sound. The more specifically I tell people what to expect, the more likely many will be to actually hear it.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

_WARNING!_ :yikes:
_Do not read the following if you are easily offended. My post is meant to be neither condescending nor off-topic. I do not mean to open cans-of-worms regarding the great amps debate or related arguments. I would like to think that my post will help educate some, win some friends, and most of all help one or more enthusiasts attain higher performance from their gear for minimum cost._ 
I leave myself at the moderators' mercy. :cop:

*Start Rant* :rant:
To relay a portion of my philosophy, I'll start by saying I'm not on the lunatic fringe of tweakdom, but I do take tweaks seriously _in the context of a high-end audio system_. By "tweaks" I mean specialty cable, connectors, conductive fluids, isolation/coupling devices. etc. By "high-end" I don't mean esoterically priced with aesthetics to match. By "high-end" I do mean to include gear capable of preserving minute detail in electrical signals that hold the nuances which communicate musical emotion and artistic intent. If a system gets music "right," then it will have no problem with movies. The converse is not true. A system set up for the sonic pyrotechnics of explosions and car chases doesn't necessarily translate well to the world of musical enjoyment, with or without properly applied room correction.

But before you take up torches and pitchforks, please bear with me:
"High-end" has become a cliche term much like "state-of-the-art" or "reference series." Anything can be a reference, because it's just something you're comparing against something else. The reference itself can be subjectively good or bad. To complicate matters, some may prefer "bad" (e.g. extremely neutral and ruthlessly revealing) over "good" (e.g. purposely veiling to achieve greater musicality on a wider range of source material). Heh-heh, can you tell where my preference lies? :innocent:

A state-of-the-art, high-end, reference system is subjectively tuned to one's preference over the years. Some migrate toward sonic pyrotechnics at the expense of neutrality. Others prefer a ruthlessly revealing system so they can hear everything in the mix, warts and all. Some despise those two approaches, so move to the other extreme by choosing to veil sound with gear that distorts it in one way or another. Yet others will target a middle ground that allows them to enjoy most of their collection (warts and all), but still impress with excellent material.

rder: ( Wow, I really need to make a point and wind this rant down! ) rder: 
My point is that not all systems are capable of revealing subtleties afforded by diferent cables or tweaks, because they are incapable of preserving delicate information carried by the electrical signals through and between a system's components. If the first watt isn't any good, why would you want 199 more of them?
*End Rant *:rant:



lcaillo said:


> Even in a world where seemingly fantastic claims are true, I think we have to continue to consider that any one part is just that, part of the entire system.


I wholeheartedly agree with you! As is repeated many times over elsewhere on this and other forums... the devil is in the details. :devil:

While the effect of a single tweak may be dismissed as insignificant snake-oil (where's the icon for that?), it's their cummulative effect that can transform a mediocre system into a special one. The trick is to properly treat and setup your room and AV gear to work in synergy as a system the room and setup your system. Then keeping an open mind, experiment/listen, experiment/listen, over and over and over again.

In other words: acoustic treatment is absolutely necessary to empower the room/system combination to reveal subtle details. But it can't do that if others part of the room/equipment system aren't capable. The higher the number of incapable parts, the less detail can be retrieved. There are those who chant the bits-are-bits, amps-are-amps, and so-is-wire mantras. There's strength in numbers, and teaming together for a cause is human nature. Be different, get creative, think for yourself, and have fun exploring the possibilities with an open mind. You needn't spend much on DIY tweaks, and other like speaker positioning are free!



lcaillo said:


> If binding posts did make a difference, I don't think it would negate other improvements, but introduce a relatively small effect. But how the two components interact might be important. For instance, if there are imperfections in the surfaces of contact we might have many different contact points with different resistances and surface area. Additionally, the varying spaces could oxidize differently creating additional resistance and geometries of transfer. Who knows what the effect would be. Maybe large contact areas are actually bad?


There are conductive liquids on the market that you use to coat mating surfaces. The ide is to fill in the air gaps and create a uniform conductive surface. Maybe not much by itself, but contributes to the greater good!



lcaillo said:


> My point is that you can think yourself into many issues that in actual effect may be meaningless. But you can bet that if I started selling some high precision machined connector system I could come up with lots of speculative reasons that it might have x, y, and z effects on the sound. The more specifically I tell people what to expect, the more likely many will be to actually hear it.


Good lesson, Icaillo. Psychoacoustics plays a major role in subjective assessment, as does aesthetics. Many cables/interconnects are works of art in themselves, exuding a pride-in-ownership that can elevate the owner's mood to the point they believe the sound is better. I don't condone choosing cable on that basis, but I don't condemn it either. I read someone's comment on this forum about how this hobby is supposed to be about enjoyment and fun. If an expensive piece of audio jewelry helps you enjoy your system and you can afford it, more power to you.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

As the saying goes "the system is only as good as the weakest link" That said speaker cables that cost hundreds even thousands will not improve that sound even a slight percentage. You far better off putting that money into something that truly makes a difference like the speakers or the amps driving them but even then at a certain point spending loads of money those benefits are diminished.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

BlueRockinLou said:


> .


In one word ... NO


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> *As the saying goes "the system is only as good as the weakest link"* That said speaker cables that cost hundreds even thousands will not improve that sound even a slight percentage. You far better off putting that money into something that truly makes a difference like the speakers or the amps driving them but even then at a certain point spending loads of money those benefits are diminished.


I think we're on the same page. Admittedly, I rambled-on and made my post hard to read so here's the passage I think applies:
_"In other words: acoustic treatment is absolutely necessary to empower the room/system combination to reveal subtle details. But it can't do that if others part of the room/equipment system aren't capable. The higher the number of incapable parts, the less detail can be retrieved."_

I agree the rest of the chain should receive attention first. Cables are an afterthought, and should be properly sized for the signal they carry, and shielded according to application. If there are any differences between cables at all, they are not night and day as the audiophile press would have you believe. Sighted comparisons have a distinct psychoacoustic effect on the listener. So in that case, and for that listener, the fancy, expensive cable will improve the sound by some slight percentage.




chashint said:


> In one word ... NO


I'm stunned. Every idea I tried to convey is wrong? I feel your response is rather harsh, as well as unnecessarily dismissive. I guess I deserve it because, in retrospect, my post is rather long with meandering topics. That makes for a difficult "read." 

Like most of HTS's posters I've interacted with and followed thus far, I'm passionate about this hobby, and I get carried away by including all manner of info at once. See.? I'm doing it again. *Are you just prejudiced against audiophiles? If so, please define "audiophile."*


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> I couldn't do an isolation transformer, but I did pull 4 separate home runs of 12/3 out of a sub panel with its own ground rods. All my gear is plugged into an APC h10. I have no way of knowing/measuring if my efforts were worth it but I understand enough to make me think so. And I sleep better too. Lol not the best but better than many.


as an electrician I have to ask about your separate ground rod... did you bond that rod together with your home rod? if not you can induce voltage on your grounding via difference of potential.

NEC code requires a bond even on isolated systems.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yes I did.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> Yes I did.


Good deal. Sounds like you did a good installation. I'm wanting to do the same but I'll be installing 3 ground rods and running a bare 4/0 copper cable between all of them forming a "Triangle" then running a bond underground over to my main ground rod.

Up from that grounding triad will be a 2/0 cable to a 2"x8"x1/4" copper buss bar that will mount in my panel with isolation blocks and all of my power circuits will be using #6awg wiring from my panel to my outlets. I'll use fork lugs to my receptacles so perform the termination. 

From there I'll plug in an isolation transformer and will have one for each separate piece of equipment and from there I'll plug each equipment into it's own dedicated isolation transformer.


Did you notice any improvements or was this just a piece of mind thing you did?


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Belden Brilliance 1311A. You can get it a cable supply places like Anixter. Belden is probably the biggest manufacture of cable in the world and probabaly makes most of stuff you see around with other names on it. All my in wall cable is this stuff, perfectly happy with it. Wouldn't trade it for mono crystal filament silver impregnated directional ....etc etc


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Well, it was mostly peace of mind. We built the house, and my very dear friend, a master electrician hooked me up, so to speak. I've done many side jobs with him, and the experience has been great. Nothing like a free education. (I'd never do a side job myself though. I wouldn't feel right about taking a job from an actual tradesman) With the budget at the time, we agreed that the setup we put in place would work well. No comparison, as it was a new build, but (to me and those I've demoed for) it sounds great, and clean.


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## planetnine (Mar 3, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> *As the saying goes "the system is only as good as the weakest link"* That said speaker cables that cost hundreds even thousands will not improve that sound even a slight percentage. You far better off putting that money into something that truly makes a difference like the speakers or the amps driving them but even then at a certain point spending loads of money those benefits are diminished.



Picking up from this: make sure you take care with your speaker-cable termination. Buy good end-connectors, and give some thought to reducing any oxidisation on amp or speaker terminals. Gold-plated to gold-plated is best (shouldn't oxidise at all unless you have a penchant for splashing mercury about), but a dab of petroleum jelly on the connectors should help. For direct copper-wire clamping, Deoxit aerosol and a smidge of PJ again should slow it down.

Dirty, bad or oxidised connections will make a far more significant impact on your audio quality than any fancy audiophile cable.



>


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Sonnie said:


> This is a superb point. It does not end at the speaker ends or the cable ends... there are significantly "cheaper" wires from those speakers terminals and RCA/XLR terminals to the amp board and crossover/driver. The speaker and cable manufacturers can't control that part.


For me this is a huge issue as the wire in an amp might be 8" long and in the speaker, depending on size, could be 20" or so. This is a far cry from 10'-20' in most audio systems running from amplification to speaker.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

planetnine said:


> Picking up from this: make sure you take care with your speaker-cable termination. Buy good end-connectors, and give some thought to reducing any oxidisation on amp or speaker terminals. Gold-plated to gold-plated is best (shouldn't oxidise at all unless you have a penchant for splashing mercury about), but a dab of petroleum jelly on the connectors should help. For direct copper-wire clamping, Deoxit aerosol and a smidge of PJ again should slow it down.
> 
> Dirty, bad or oxidised connections will make a far more significant impact on your audio quality than any fancy audiophile cable.
> 
> ...


Valid thoughts here and one might go so far as to say view the cable itself every now and then. If the cable was made in a bad environment, say high humidity it can discolor from within as the photos show. I have found this issue in both brown colored dialectic as well as clear. 

In addition there is most definitely differences in sound between some cables. The original monster cables were flexible and nice looking but tended to be somewhat withdrawn on the bottom end. Solid core magnet type wire tends to allow the bottom end to be quite strong but exhibits withdrawal in sound at the top end.
Different windings may make a difference within the same gauge and type of wire but i am still examining that. 
Double up the solid core magnet wire and the bottom end of the music takes over everything and becomes too too strong. And in this case by double up, i mean double wire between one amp and one speaker binding post.

When it comes to a normal bi wire either by running two cables from two amps to the double bindings posts of a speaker have not really made any difference to me thus far and I don't do it any longer.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Like many things manufactured in China there was a huge issue with Chinese manufactured wire with polyvinyl chloride (PVC) insulation. The insulation was not / is not stable and out gasses chlorine. This is the reason the wire is oxidizing / corroding inside the insulation. It's not humidity related. I do not know if the Chinese manufacturers ever got this corrected or not.
Why do I know this?? I have/had my whole stinking house wired with the stuff.
As far as degrading the sound, not until the wire is affected to the point it cannot carry the current which will probably be noticed when a speaker quits working completely.
Where it was easy to do I have replaced the wire that was affected by this, in the places where I ran it through the attic and into the walls it will stay until it quits working.


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