# second sub



## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

Need some opinions on a second sub. I have a lava 12 inch sub right now, its good for music but dosent have enough output for me for movies. My room is 17x15 with vaulted ceilings and opens up into a small kitchen. I was thinking about picking up a another sub to help out the lava, I have few options on placement. I noticed today that outlaw has some lfm plus b stock on sale. Does anyone have any other suggestions at the 500 dollar price point? I also glanced at the svs pb1000. Didn't know if a 10 inch sub would compete with the 12 inch outlaw.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

If you think the Lava is good for music wait until you hear a subwoofer that actually is. :sn:

When you go duals it's always best to match what you current have, but since Lava is now out of business that's going to be hard. You may be able to find one on ebay still; I know the liquidated units were there a few weeks ago. However, it's really just a TruAudio PS-12, so if you bought one of those it would be the Lava.

The PB-1000 is going to be a better all around subwoofer, in spite of the fact that the driver is smaller. Trying to integrate one with the LSP-12 could prove challenging though, since the 'lesser' subwoofer has a tendency to drag down the better unit. You may want to reconsider doing that. The PB-1000 by itself would be a better choice.

If you really want to go for an upgrade consider the Rythmik LV-12R. For just a little over what you're looking to spend you can step up to a subwoofer that excels at both movies and music. In a room the size of yours it will perform wonders.


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## Basshead81 (Apr 9, 2013)

^Agreed!!


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

I would add my voice to the Rhythmik recommendation. I have 2 15" sealed Rythmiks and don't feel the need for anything louder or deeper. In my room, I found opposing corners to give the best results, another option would be midway on the sidewalls, per research that's been done on sub positioning. I think you'll like what 2 subs can do to smooth out the sub's response and give more seats good sound in your listening room.


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## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

I will check out the Rythmik. So would you say between the other 2 (outlaw LFM1 plus and the SVS PB1000) that the SVS would be better?


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

"Better" is a very subjective term. What you consider "better" I may consider "worse". I believe you can try the Rythmik's out for 30 days, I'm not sure about the others. I would guess that none of the subs you mention are "bad", so it comes down to value. I have found that ID (internet direct ) companies can give the best value. They don't have layers of marketing or advertising budgets, so more of your money is going toward the product. When there is good "buzz" about a particular ID product, you can be be confident that it's something special. Another reason I like the Rythmiks is that they use servo technology, which greatly reduces distortion and allows you to hear varying levels of bass material articulately. Hope this helps...


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Basshead81 said:


> ^Agreed!!


...:wave:


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Unless I am in err, I believe the LFM Plus is roughly equivalent to the VTF2.4, just as the EX = VTF3.

That being the case, I would have to say that the Plus is the better subwoofer.


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## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks for input so far. The Rhythmik looks nice, but its pretty big. Every review I read on the svs pb1000 is great. Would the 1000 be considered a true sub? While I would like better performance than the lava


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

park41 said:


> The Rhythmik looks nice, but its pretty big.


It's big, but in my opinion, doesn't show itself as obtrusively large. The below image shows one of our FV15HPs at ten feet from the MLP. The next image is from the wife's listening position.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

park41 said:


> Thanks for input so far. The Rhythmik looks nice, but its pretty big. Every review I read on the svs pb1000 is great. Would the 1000 be considered a true sub? While I would like better performance than the lava


The PB1000 is one of the best 10" home theater subs at its price. The Outlaw LFM Plus on sale in the clearance section is a class above the PB1000 for the same price.

Its basically this http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html which runs about $630 with shipping.


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## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks for the photos Beeman458, nice. They seem to be tall rather than really wide.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

park41 said:


> Thanks for the photos Beeman458, nice. They seem to be tall rather than really wide.


Yes, they can be considered tall. The below image is the second sub, placed nearfield behind the MLP. And I might add, placed in this fashion, the chair has bunches of tactile sensation. :bigsmile:

For perspective purposes, the sub is 25" (63.5cm) tall, the sofa table is 26.5" (67.31cm) and in the middle, the back of the love seat is 36" or 91.44cm.

...


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## GusGus748s (Jul 22, 2013)

If you are thinking of spending $500 dollars for a sub, I would suggest to add $89 to it, and get the Rythmik LV12R. Try it out with the Lava, and try to blend them in sound wise.


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## Basshead81 (Apr 9, 2013)

Bear123 said:


> The PB1000 is one of the best 10" home theater subs at its price. The Outlaw LFM Plus on sale in the clearance section is a class above the PB1000 for the same price.
> 
> Its basically this http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html which runs about $630 with shipping.


Yes I would go for the plus over the PB1000


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## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

Basshead81 said:


> Yes I would go for the plus over the PB1000


What about the plus compared to the Rythmik 12? 60% music and 40% movies?!


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## Basshead81 (Apr 9, 2013)

park41 said:


> What about the plus compared to the Rythmik 12? 60% music and 40% movies?!


I would go for the Rythmik...


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## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

Another option I was thinking about was maybe getting a svs pb1000 and than adding a second one latter. Would this be better than one Rythmik? I have read on this forum that people like 2 sub setups to balance the room out.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

park41 said:


> Another option I was thinking about was maybe getting a svs pb1000 and than adding a second one latter. Would this be better than one Rythmik? I have read on this forum that people like 2 sub setups to balance the room out.


The bigger, the badder, the better.....it's da law.

Two subs help smooth room modes and two subs bring a room alive in a way that a single sub has no chance of doing.

If in it for the rumble, you'll need to do better than a pair of Rythmik LV12Rs. Two PB1000s will give you enough bass to bring the room alive and is an excellent starting point regarding your pathway to subwoofer upgraditis.

Personally, you'd be better served, looking for a used PSA XV15.

The above recommendation does not fit your budget. This I understand. But a used PSA XV15 will meet your subwoofer expectations and when you add a second one, you'll understand why all of the above is a better idea than two PB1000s or a single Rythmik LV12R.

Bigger, badder, better......it's da law.

...:devil:


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## MikeBiker (Jan 3, 2010)

Figure out what your real maximum budget is. No matter what is suggested, there will be a better sub available and a 'slightly' larger price. 

I would not try to integrate two different subs. Sell the Lava and use the extra money to up the amount you are willing to spend.


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## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

I've narrowed my choices down to 2 svs pb1000's(one now and another this summer) and a 1 Rythmik 12. Question about the Rythmik ,since it rear ported how close to the wall can I have it? That's what has been killing me on getting a larger sub is the depth. The sub will go next to my av stand and I don't want it sticking way past my stand which is 3 inches from the wall.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

A guideline I've heard mentioned numerous times is at least the width of the port, so if the port is 3" then that's the minimum. I would probably consider about twice that though, in order to ensure it has enough room to exhale.


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## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

Update: got one svs pb1000. Had it for a couple of days and so far a really like it. Played a few scenes from Man Of Steel and Avatar and I'am hearing and feeling things that never heard with the lava. Watched Gravity last night and was blown away, I can only imagine what the other subs people recommended would do with this movie. My only slight apprehension is with music. I know I'am used to loose bass, where the svs doesn't have, but it dosent quite have the punch on music. I was thinking about trying to catch one there outlet specials on the pb12-Nsd. Does anyone have any hands on with the PB12?


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## altittude (Mar 31, 2014)

my advise would be to match what you have another lava 12


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

park41 said:


> Update: got one svs pb1000. Had it for a couple of days and so far a really like it. Played a few scenes from Man Of Steel and Avatar and I'am hearing and feeling things that never heard with the lava. Watched Gravity last night and was blown away, I can only imagine what the other subs people recommended would do with this movie. My only slight apprehension is with music. I know I'am used to loose bass, where the svs doesn't have, but it dosent quite have the punch on music. I was thinking about trying to catch one there outlet specials on the pb12-Nsd. Does anyone have any hands on with the PB12?


SVS subs have a lot going for them, but they also have some weaknesses. They play clean and with very low distortion, and have aggressive limiters that prevent them from being easily damaged, or from making any bad noises in most situations. Having said that, they tend to give up some output in the mid and upper bass compared to some. The PB12-NSD falls in this same boat.....it has industry leading 18-30 Hz output for its size and price, but rather anemic from 40-80 in comparison. However, you would likely gain enough headroom with duals that it should easily overcome this issue. 

Also, punch on music comes largely from the crossover area, so if sub and speakers are out of phase it can have a big impact on this area. Play some good punchy bass music very loud, then switch phase back and forth. You should easily be able to tell if you were out of phase.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Bear123 said:


> SVS subs have a lot going for them, but they also have some weaknesses. They play clean and with very low distortion, and have aggressive limiters that prevent them from being easily damaged, or from making any bad noises in most situations. Having said that, they tend to give up some output in the mid and upper bass compared to some. The PB12-NSD falls in this same boat.....it has industry leading 18-30 Hz output for its size and price, but rather anemic from 40-80 in comparison. However, you would likely gain enough headroom with duals that it should easily overcome this issue. Also, punch on music comes largely from the crossover area, so if sub and speakers are out of phase it can have a big impact on this area. Play some good punchy bass music very loud, then switch phase back and forth. You should easily be able to tell if you were out of phase.


I agree with bear here. I would also add that in my system, when I level match everything, the low end suffers on music, so I have to trim up about 7-10db. Another way to check phase integration would be to put your spl meter in the LP, and run the test tone in your rcvr. I think, that tone runs from 40-150hz.(anybody?) Like bear said, this in the crossover region and you'll notice phase movement easily. So play the tone, and watch the meter. Move the phase control and when you get the most output, you should be done. this way I have a number to reference, and takes acoustic adaption out of the equation. 
...could be sitting in a null too.


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## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

When you guys are talking "phase" are you talking about the phase adjustment on the back of the sub?


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Yes.

In this case, in-phase refers to the simultaneous or in-sync arrival of the subwoofer produced sound waves at the (MLP) main listening position.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yep. Imagine it like focusing a pair if binoculars. When the system is out of phase, it's like being out of focus, with undefined bass, and possibly a smeared soundstage. When you get it all lined up, the bottom end should be clear, and defined.


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## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

Gotcha, I will play around with phase adjustment. And I still have a couple of weeks to see if I want to keep it or step up to the Rythmik lv12r, that by all accounts is great at movies and music.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

MikeBiker said:


> Figure out what your real maximum budget is. No matter what is suggested, there will be a better sub available and a 'slightly' larger price.
> 
> I would not try to integrate two different subs. Sell the Lava and use the extra money to up the amount you are willing to spend.


Very good advice, Mike.


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