# KK DXD-808 vs Sunfire HRS-12



## L1977 (Jul 23, 2013)

Hello, I wonder if I get the DXD-808, will it be a huge upgrade from my Sunfire HRS-12?

//Lennie


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Sorry I don't know the HSU subs so cannot offer an opinion against the KK sub 

Does nobody reply to anyone's questions anymore on this forum? 

What a shame used to have people and mods answering questions straight away a few years back, what's changed, or is there no support anymore for KK products just PSA :nerd:


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

recruit said:


> Sorry I don't know the HSU subs so cannot offer an opinion against the KK sub


Sorry I meant the Sunfire sub you are questioning


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

As I have not heard either I can only go by what I have heard from reviews and by reading the specifications. 
The sunfire subs have never gotten really good reviews Musically they are fine but I hear they just dont muster enough output at the lower frequencies. The 808 would likly be a step up but they dont look as nice so if WAF is important it also may not be the best upgrade path to take.


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

I have the step up to the 808 and it's a monster. I am sure the 808 is nicer than the Sunfire.


----------



## L1977 (Jul 23, 2013)

Thank's for the replies guys! I asked a question in another dxd-808 thread about how close the sub can be to the wall (where the sub element is)? How many cm is minimum distance?


----------



## Darkmatter (May 1, 2011)

According to KK guidelines, they are designed to be placed 2-4" away from a corner. I have mine approximately 3-5" away and it sounds fine.

1"=2.5cm incase you didnt know.


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

That's more like it guys a bit of good healthy chatter


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

L1977 - Sorry I have not responded to you but it always felt like I was the only one talking and all I wanted was more people to join in and help.

The KK 808 is a fantastic sub for the money and once set up correctly the results are stunning, I could not go back to another sub brand now, the KK subs are just so unique and once you hear one you will understand why


----------



## L1977 (Jul 23, 2013)

Darkmatter said:


> According to KK guidelines, they are designed to be placed 2-4" away from a corner. I have mine approximately 3-5" away and it sounds fine.
> 
> 1"=2.5cm incase you didnt know.


Thanks! But how about the woofer side of the sub, can it be close to a cabinet, with a distance of like 3-4cm for instance?


----------



## Darkmatter (May 1, 2011)

The woofer is faced into the wall as per his recommendation. 

I don't 100% know why he recommends a placement like that. Its the same kind of distance a downward firing sub is to the floor so maybe it has something to do with that?


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

The KK Subs are designed for studios and with that in mind can fit easily into tight spaces, if you see in the picture my sub fires into the side of my solid cabinet which it couples to nicely, if it were a studio it could be placed under the mixing desk firing into it with similar affect, this is how mine is working and as long as you set the system up correctly all should be fine, it goes deep enough, but most importantly it gives plenty of slam and punch which is needed for movies, but at the same time it can be part of your music system playing with finesse!!


----------



## Darkmatter (May 1, 2011)

Does anyone here have a 808 Duo ? 

Also recruit, how is your 808 connected to your AVR? RCA-RCA, XLR-RCA or XLR-XLR? Do you use the green dot position for the levels and what has your AVR set the trim to?


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Darkmatter said:


> Does anyone here have a 808 Duo ?
> 
> Also recruit, how is your 808 connected to your AVR? RCA-RCA, XLR-RCA or XLR-XLR? Do you use the green dot position for the levels and what has your AVR set the trim to?



Hi Darkmatter,

I don't have a Duo yet but intend on getting another making mine a Duo 

I have mine connected by RCA to my processor and yes mine is always set to to green dot, and the trim on the processor is -5db.


----------



## Darkmatter (May 1, 2011)

Thanks for that. Hopefully i will bump into a duo owner at some point! 

Interesting

My RCA-RCA connection gave me a AVR trim of -12
My RCA-XLR connection has given me a AVR trim of -2 

Both in the same location. 

Wish i knew why! Anyways if you have any ideas about it, post it on the 808 owners thread or something. I shouldnt put this thread too off topic!


----------



## L1977 (Jul 23, 2013)

recruit said:


> The KK Subs are designed for studios and with that in mind can fit easily into tight spaces, if you see in the picture my sub fires into the side of my solid cabinet which it couples to nicely, if it were a studio it could be placed under the mixing desk firing into it with similar affect, this is how mine is working and as long as you set the system up correctly all should be fine, it goes deep enough, but most importantly it gives plenty of slam and punch which is needed for movies, but at the same time it can be part of your music system playing with finesse!!


Thanks! Thats what I was hoping for. Now I just have to save up some money...


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

L1977 said:


> Thanks! Thats what I was hoping for. Now I just have to save up some money...


No problem 

And the great thing about the Kreisel subs are that once you have one if you feel the urge to upgrade, you just add another and stack it to make them a Duo set up, which am sure will be an amazing upgrade !!


----------



## L1977 (Jul 23, 2013)

Yeah, if I only jad the space and money....


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

L1977 said:


> Yeah, if I only jad the space and money....


Lol! I know 

But at least you will not have to worry about which brand to go for


----------



## KEN KREISEL (Aug 17, 2012)

L1977 said:


> Thanks! But how about the woofer side of the sub, can it be close to a cabinet, with a distance of like 3-4cm for instance?


The side of the cabinet with the side driver is designed to be optimally placed 2-4" from the wall, preferably in a good solid corner of the room. For most rooms, I usually recommend first locating the DXD in the closest solid corner to your primary listening position. So, if the closest solid corner (no nearby openings like an open door) is in the back of the room, try it there first. 

Every room is different and needs some experimentation with subwoofer placement. But, after measuring literally hundreds of studios and rooms with very sophisticated TIME DOMAIN measurement equipment with the world's best laboratory measurement microphones, and my own proprietary analysis technique (which measures and computes very much like our ear/brain mechanism interprets the spectrum of sound energy over time including and especially transients), the closest solid corner has the best chance of giving you the best and most accurate "out-of-the-box" results, in my humble opinion and experience. 

The DXD's are specifically designed for corner placement which normally will give you the least room mode problems, especially if you are using the stacked DUO configuration which is technically a whole new subwoofer for a host of technical reasons.

Here is what I just wrote in another Home Theater Shack thread about this:

"Yes, a DUO will be AUDIOPHILE BASS NIRVANA for you, I guarantee it! As good as single DXD-808's and DXD-12012's are, it is a whole new experience in the DUO configuration because they are technically a whole new type of subwoofer from the single cabinets, I designed it that way. 

Once you stack at least one pair, you have my full BALANCED 3D HIGH VELOCITY PUSH-PULL-PULSAR DEEP BASS PRESSURE WAVEFRONT LINE ARRAY NEARFIELD technology operating in all its glory!!!"

The DXD's can be placed anywhere in a room, but optimum performance in most rooms will be achieved in a corner placement, again, I designed it that way for all the good reasons.

Also worth noting, the DXD's performance secret (please don't tell my competition this secret) is they are very specifically and deliberately and scientifically designed to give optimum bass performance in a real room or studio with real walls, not in a parking lot outdoors where a lot of review measurements are made for subwoofer comparisons. The same holds true for close-up type measurements where only part of a DXD's output is actually measured. 

The DXD's put out a sound pressure wave in multiple directions and cannot be properly measured outdoors or close-up, this is a big mistake some reviewers are making. It is somewhat analogous to trying to measure the horsepower on the ground of an ALL WHEEL DRIVE vehicle with a dynamometer, but only measuring the horsepower at one wheel.

I actually get a big kick at the outdoor and close-up review measurements which show the DXD's appearing to have unusual output levels and response, and then when a reviewer listens and measures in a room they usually comment they cannot believe how much pants flappy energy and impact is heard and felt in their real listening room with real walls and how low the DXD's measure in the room. Remember (another top secret not to tell my competitors), I don't use high pass protection filters in my subs (they ruin the bass impact) so they will go all the way down in a real room with real walls.

My mentor, Dr. Lester M. Field, used to say "the device is the perfect analog of itself!"

GOOD SOUND AND GOOD BASS TO YOU...ALWAYS...KEN


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Brilliant stuff Ken, so ideally the recommendation is that all DXD subs are corner loaded where possible to give you the best performance? 

My one works extremely well in its current location and I feel that it is coupling to the room nicely although the room is fairly small so I feel this helps to some degree, I do not feel I am missing any of the range or else I would certainly get the SPL meter and run REW to find out where, if any of the frequency range I am missing, but I trust my ears as they have served me well so far, and the 808 digs deeps but also gives excellent slam and punch when required.

Music is an absolute gem with this sub, it plays so well with my speakers that I have set them to small and let the 808 do all the work


----------



## KEN KREISEL (Aug 17, 2012)

recruit said:


> Brilliant stuff Ken, so ideally the recommendation is that all DXD subs are corner loaded where possible to give you the best performance?
> 
> My one works extremely well in its current location and I feel that it is coupling to the room nicely although the room is fairly small so I feel this helps to some degree, I do not feel I am missing any of the range or else I would certainly get the SPL meter and run REW to find out where, if any of the frequency range I am missing, but I trust my ears as they have served me well so far, and the 808 digs deeps but also gives excellent slam and punch when required.
> 
> Music is an absolute gem with this sub, it plays so well with my speakers that I have set them to small and let the 808 do all the work


*YOU GOT IT!*

That is exactly what the DXD's are designed to do, in a real studio or room with real walls with real sounds, not just sine waves. Remember, I answer to a higher authority, the top recording engineers who are working with budgets of millions of dollars and are recording and creating some of the most expensively captured and created sounds for movie and video game soundtracks.

Again, "the device is the perfect analog of itself!"

KEN


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Thanks Ken, you are a legend :T

btw - can I have your lightsabre if you are not using it anymore Lol! :whistling:


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

KEN KREISEL said:


> The side of the cabinet with the side driver is designed to be optimally placed 2-4" from the wall, preferably in a good solid corner of the room. For most rooms, I usually recommend first locating the DXD in the closest solid corner to your primary listening position. So, if the closest solid corner (no nearby openings like an open door) is in the back of the room, try it there first.
> 
> Every room is different and needs some experimentation with subwoofer placement. But, after measuring literally hundreds of studios and rooms with very sophisticated TIME DOMAIN measurement equipment with the world's best laboratory measurement microphones, and my own proprietary analysis technique (which measures and computes very much like our ear/brain mechanism interprets the spectrum of sound energy over time including and especially transients), the closest solid corner has the best chance of giving you the best and most accurate "out-of-the-box" results, in my humble opinion and experience.
> 
> ...


How about placing the sub next to a wall that is about 4 ft tall? The wall is what divides the kitchen and family room. In other words my kitchen is open to the family room. Thanks!


----------



## KEN KREISEL (Aug 17, 2012)

asere said:


> How about placing the sub next to a wall that is about 4 ft tall? The wall is what divides the kitchen and family room. In other words my kitchen is open to the family room. Thanks!


A lot of people email me with the same type of setup and question, with a half wall as part of a room divider and/or bar table for the kitchen or an actual bar (see attached photo).

This placement will work fine, not quite as good as a full solid floor to ceiling wall, but substantially better than no wall. You will probably get 60%-80% of what a full wall will give you, depending on the other room acoustics.

"It all depends on what degree of perfection you want to achieve!"...KEN


----------



## KEN KREISEL (Aug 17, 2012)

recruit said:


> Thanks Ken, you are a legend :T
> 
> btw - can I have your lightsabre if you are not using it anymore Lol! :whistling:


Yes, but only when everyone I am working with in the studios stops calling me Obi-Wan!


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

KEN KREISEL said:


> Yes, but only when everyone I am working with in the studios stops calling me Obi-Wan!


Ha ha ha, yes master, the force is strong in this Jedi


----------



## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

Ken - I don't see it mentioned here but I'm curious what your room size recommendations would be for a single 808 vs a duo 808. Or even duo 808 vs a single 12012?


----------



## Darkmatter (May 1, 2011)

Also on the same note as the post above, what would you say is a better buy in your eyes ken? Duo 808 or a single 12012. I am very interested in the whole stacking concept i just wonder if it would add as much as just going for my 808's bigger brother!


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

KEN KREISEL said:


> A lot of people email me with the same type of setup and question, with a half wall as part of a room divider and/or bar table for the kitchen or an actual bar (see attached photo).
> 
> This placement will work fine, not quite as good as a full solid floor to ceiling wall, but substantially better than no wall. You will probably get 60%-80% of what a full wall will give you, depending on the other room acoustics.
> 
> "It all depends on what degree of perfection you want to achieve!"...KEN


Thank you


----------



## L1977 (Jul 23, 2013)

Thanks Ken! It really is an honor to get advice from you, and I already have a corner spot planned for the 808. The thing was that where I am planning to place it, the side driver will be facing the cabinet wall for my stereo equipment, and there will be 4-5 cm between the sub and the cabinet. Behind and on the other side of the sub there will be around 10-15 cm free space. Is this a proper placement?


----------



## KEN KREISEL (Aug 17, 2012)

Peter Loeser said:


> Ken - I don't see it mentioned here but I'm curious what your room size recommendations would be for a single 808 vs a duo 808. Or even duo 808 vs a single 12012?


I wish I had a dollar for every time someone asked me about room size. It is like asking how much horsepower do I need in my car, lots of variables to consider. My stock answer is that room size makes very little difference, what matters most is the distance you are from the sub or the speakers, if the sub is in a good solid corner, how loud do you listen, and how cooperative your wife is regarding the size of your subwoofer cabinet(s)! 

I think my all-time favorite review quote is from Russell Williams' DXD review from the UK. In his review of the 8 foot tall QUATTRO DXD-12012 (only available in a black cabinet) he says " The increasingly tolerant Mrs. Williams, even went so far as to say it (the 8 foot tall QUATTRO subwoofer) wouldn't be so bad if it was white..."

Did I answer your question? Probably not yet. 

The DUO DXD-808 becomes an entirely different animal (some refer to it as THE LITTLE MONSTER) from the fantastic sounding single DXD-808, as I mentioned in a previous post. Output is increased +6dB or more. I say "or more" because the coupling of the DUO to the room is different and the bass near field is pushed out closer to the listening position, assuming the DUO is in the corner.

I love all my children, so it is difficult for me to recommend one over the other. The DXD-808 is designed as a scaled down, absolutely no compromise version of the DXD-12012. A DUO DXD-808 will produce overall about the same acoustic output as a single DXD-12012, but the wives absolutely love the smaller foot print of the DUO DXD-808. 

The DUO DXD-808 will in most rooms output a little more above about 80Hz and a little less below about 12Hz than a single DXD-12012. The DUO DXD-808 will have all the sonic benefits of a DUO, but wait until you hear a QUATTRO DXD-808, which actually is not too overbearing size wise as its footprint is still just under 1 sq. ft. (see attached photo comparing the size of the QUATTRO DXD-12012 to the QUATTRO DXD-808. 

If you are strictly interested in 2-channel music reproduction, it is hard to match the DUO DXD-808 for its lightning fast speed and mid-bass impact and musicality and ability to seamlessly integrate with any main speakers on the market. If it sounds like I am pushing the DUO DXD-808, I am. The DUO DXD-808 is the "sleeper" in the KEN KREISEL subwoofer lineup. The DUO DXD-808 seems to make everyone in the family happy, and then once everyone in the family is used to the DUO, you add two more for a QUATTRO stack, and voila, now your neighbors are not happy!

Hope I answered your questions...KEN


----------



## KEN KREISEL (Aug 17, 2012)

L1977 said:


> Thanks Ken! It really is an honor to get advice from you, and I already have a corner spot planned for the 808. The thing was that where I am planning to place it, the side driver will be facing the cabinet wall for my stereo equipment, and there will be  4-5 cm between the sub and the cabinet. Behind and on the other side of the sub there will be around 10-15 cm free space. Is this a proper placement?


That will be fine...KEN


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

As always Ken, you are the main man, the master of bass :T

The DXD808 imo is an absolute star performer, I came from owning the mighty MX5100SF and honestly in my new room I do not miss it, but what I do find is this sub is so much better with music, each strum on the bass guitar is noted and picked out, it is startling how real and live the performances now feel on DVD-Audio and SACD, it really is that good


----------



## Darkmatter (May 1, 2011)

Thanks for the input, i am still struggling to decide on which to go for another 808 or 12012. Its a shame i cant demo them both to see the difference in my room!


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Darkmatter said:


> Thanks for the input, i am still struggling to decide on which to go for another 808 or 12012. Its a shame i cant demo them both to see the difference in my room!


I have more or less always had BIG subs, and this time round I wanted something more discreet in terms of looks, well nothing like I have had before lets just say that, so when the new DXD subs came along and I moved into a new place it was always going to be the DXD808 with the thought that I could add a second sub to make it a DUO without taking up anymore space and keeping the wife happy, in performance terms the 808 is brilliant and I do not think you will find another sub anywhere near its price that will match its quality of bass that it gives, and like Ken has mentioned the 808 is a star performer when it comes to music due to it's lightning fast deep tight bass, which I have not heard before hearing these new subs, they really are a huge step forward from Ken's previous generation of subs IMO which I have owned quite a few, MX350MKII & MX5100SF which were just a couple to mention


----------



## Darkmatter (May 1, 2011)

Moved to the owners thread.


----------



## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

KEN KREISEL said:


> I wish I had a dollar for every time someone asked me about room size.


My check is in the mail 



KEN KREISEL said:


> Hope I answered your questions.


As long as the sub is in a corner, and I sit close enough to the sub, I'll hear sufficient bass from any one of the DXDs with little loss of perceived output due to room size, volume, shape, how many openings, etc?

Actually you started to answer my next question - did you design the 12012 or 808 first, or are they both scaled versions of a base design that could be applied to multiple driver sizes? I guess the 12012 is a logical step forward from the previous M&K models with 12" drivers. The 808 comes in to achieve similar performance with a smaller footprint. You sound very sensitive to WAF and space constraints, which would seem to conflict with the typical needs of a studio environment. Do you deal with many studios that are cramped enough to require stackable subs that fit within a square foot of floor space, or is the goal to get as many DXDs into the corner as possible?

You have noted several times that the DUO is a whole new world compared to a single. I assume that's because the DUO configuration provides more balance, with the drivers oriented in opposed pairs? Why not use that as the basic design, four drivers facing four directions in one cabinet? I'm thinking, if one of these is so good, why is the manufacturer suggesting I need four of them, i.e. quad DXD?

I had the opportunity to briefly try a single 12012 in my HT and while it could definitely go deep, it didn't sound as full as I would have preferred - like something was missing. It was positioned anywhere between 1/4 and 1/2 the distance from the corner on the front wall, so I'm very curious now to know how it would perform in a corner, based on your recommendations. For reference the room is about 2300sqft with seating position 8-9 ft from the sub location.

Thanks for your participation in the forum and attention to our many questions!


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

What subs are you currently using peterman?


----------



## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

Started with a pair of Paradigm PW-2200. Long story short, I sold the pair but the buyer backed out on the 2nd so I'm down to a single PW-2200 that I'm still looking to sell/replace.

I also have a Sunfire Atmos sitting here that I'll be reviewing soon.


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Peter Loeser said:


> You have noted several times that the DUO is a whole new world compared to a single. I assume that's because the DUO configuration provides more balance, with the drivers oriented in opposed pairs? Why not use that as the basic design, four drivers facing four directions in one cabinet? I'm thinking, if one of these is so good, why is the manufacturer suggesting I need four of them, i.e. quad DXD?
> 
> I had the opportunity to briefly try a single 12012 in my HT and while it could definitely go deep, it didn't sound as full as I would have preferred - like something was missing. It was positioned anywhere between 1/4 and 1/2 the distance from the corner on the front wall, so I'm very curious now to know how it would perform in a corner, based on your recommendations. For reference the room is about 2300sqft with seating position 8-9 ft from the sub location.


I think the first part can only really be understood if you are a sub designer and builder of subwoofers, in this case these particular subs are modular so can be built upon to make them perform in a certain way, or specifically as the designer wants them to, hence the DUO & QUAD stack formations.

The second part certainly sounds like a set up issue as a single 12012 should play loud and deep, did you measure or perform any kind of tests before sitting down for your demo, seeing that you are a reviewer?



Peter Loeser said:


> Started with a pair of Paradigm PW-2200. Long story short, I sold the pair but the buyer backed out on the 2nd so I'm down to a single PW-2200 that I'm still looking to sell/replace.
> 
> I also have a Sunfire Atmos sitting here that I'll be reviewing soon.


Paradigm has a good rep for subs, and they took on the Tri linear balanced design from Martin Logan to make there high end Sub1 & Sub2, which cancels out distortion something that the Push Pull design of the new DXD subs are very very good at.

Sunfire subs as far as I can tell from peoples reviews is that they do not particularly play deep but the emphasis is more on how many thousands of watts can they fit in a shoe box Lol


----------



## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

recruit said:


> The second part certainly sounds like a set up issue as a single 12012 should play loud and deep, did you measure or perform any kind of tests before sitting down for your demo, seeing that you are a reviewer?


Good question. Couple comments... I am by no means an expert on sub design or construction. I do not recall performing any measurements with the 12012 in my setup to support what I was hearing. I had pretty recently joined the HTS review staff and equipped myself to do REW measurements but my REW activity at that point was focused on my review of the SVS PB13-U in our (much larger) family room. While the PB13 blew me away in our big open family room, I found it to also be underwelming in my HT, however I did not take the time to really measure or tune it in there either. All of that to say, while both are clearly capable subs, they both likely fell victim to non-ideal placement in my HT. While I have found several subs to perform well in that location (PW2200, BIC PL200, Atlantic Technology 642, for example) others like the SVS and KK did not seem to like it. I have since reconfigured the room in a way that would allow sub placement in either of the rear corners. Front corners are no good due to the presence of a door on either end of the front wall. Hence my curiosity to try a DXD again but located in a corner :scratchchin:



recruit said:


> Paradigm has a good rep for subs, and they took on the Tri linear balanced design from Martin Logan to make there high end Sub1 & Sub2, which cancels out distortion something that the Push Pull design of the new DXD subs are very very good at.


Agreed, and I'm a bit partial to Paradigm (long time owner of studio 100s). The Sub1 and Sub2 are very appealing, however both are far beyond the reach of my current budget. In fact, Paradigm's pricing in general has jumped way up since I bought my 100 v.2's about 11 years ago. I narrowly missed an opportunity to hear the Sub1 at Dale's get together last year because I showed up late :doh:



recruit said:


> Sunfire subs as far as I can tell from peoples reviews is that they do not particularly play deep but the emphasis is more on how many thousands of watts can they fit in a shoe box Lol


It's a loud little unit, and I'll leave it at that until the official review :bigsmile:


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Thanks Peter, look forward to that review then


----------

