# Not getting the true 7.2 experience



## DukeSweden (3 mo ago)

Even though I've calibrated my 7.2 system to reference level, I can never really get a true surround experience. I end up tweaking my surround back speakers louder and louder but it just doesn't sound right. The very first experience I had with surround sound was in a high end electronics store in S. Florida called Sound Advice. This was back when the latest "thing" was CRT sets with ED, or "extended definition". They had an area with a bunch of these tv's, and then there was a closed off "Home Theater" with 5.1 sound. As I walked into this area, it was playing a movie by Steven Spielberg called "Always". I was amazed as the airplane in the opening scene went flying right over my head and past me.
That memory popped into my head today, so I dl'd that movie. When I played it back, all of the airplane sound came from the front L and R speakers. It wasn't at all like I remembered it.
I have a Yamaha RX-A2A AVR, a 7.2 Klipsch Ref series speakers (all 22 years old except for the second sub and my surrounds, which used to be Dolby Atmos Front Heights, but because of my incredibly arched ceiling didn't really give me the Atmos effect). My back surrounds have 2 woofers and a tweeter each.

Any ideas on what I could do as far as positioning? Any ideas are welcome.


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, 5 (or 7.1) playback requires “all the stars to be in alignment,” as it were.

For starters, the surround channels in use have to be activated in the AVR’s menu.

Then, 5.1 output has to be activated in the playback device (blu ray player, Roku, etc.). If a blue ray, 5.1 often has to be selected in the disc menu.

The AVR has to have the input in use set for 5.1 digital input.

The program itself has to be recorded and presented in 5.1. For example, some cable TV channels do not broadcast in 5.1, so you won’t get it even if the program they’re playing was produced in 5.1.

All devices in use should probably be connected to the AVR, not the TV. Some TVs won’t send a 5.1 signal to the AVR from devices plugged into it.

Unfortunately, Yamaha has gone minimalist with the front-panel display on their new line of AVRs. Previously, there was an indicator that showed if the receiver was putting out a 5.1 signal, which was the final confirmation that "all the stars were in alignment." They don't have that indicator anymore, which is unfortunate.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


----------



## DukeSweden (3 mo ago)

Actually they still do, you just have to choose it from the list of possible displays. All 7.1(2) channels are active. I play video files through Plex, all of my movies are 7.1 TrueHD, except for the DTS-MA movies. AVR is set to 7.1. I used to have it as 5.2.2 with Front Height speakers, but as I said I wasn't getting the Atmos experience so I switched to the 7.1 set up.
Don't even talk to me about broadcast. The sound when I watch Youtube TV is awful, the sub just gets louder and more overwhelming the longer I stay in Youtube. My only device (Nvidia Shield) is in fact connected to the AVR.
Sometimes the setup sounds awesome. Other times it appears that everything is coming from the LCR speakers in mono. I would just like to tweak everything to perfection and leave it there. Is that asking too much? Is permanent tweaking a part of the Home Theater experience? Is there such a thing as playing it too loud, thereby losing the space between speakers?


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Believe me, I feel your frustration! I think the problem largely lies with the program (or channel) providers. Not much you can do about that, even with a perfect set up on our end. This is one reason I do movies via blu ray instead of streaming. TV shows – well, you get what you get, unfortunately. Even the ones that actually get to you in 5.1, the format is typically utilized minimally. You hardly ever see something as simple as front-channel pans. At least with the shows my wife and I watch...

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


----------



## DukeSweden (3 mo ago)

Oddly enough the only program my son and I watch that really utilizes all of the channels is Family Guy. But I don't care about Dolby Digital while watching TV. As you said very few shows really do it well. It's the ridiculously loud sub that gets louder and louder until I just grab the remote and lower the sub down to -10db while fighting the urge to just throw it at the tv. I don't know why it does it. Even when I set the AVR to Straight. Even Pure Direct doesn't help.
Anyway if I didn't mention it, my ceiling is ridiculously arched. 10 feet on the right side, 25 feet on the left. The right side has a huge stone fireplace, the left side is open for another 15 feet before you get to the wall. I guess my biggest problem, as I've already stated, is sometimes it sounds great, sometimes it sounds like everything is coming from the LCR speakers with very little panning.
I do "sound checks" like 5 times a day and I'm constantly tweaking (I'm retired). I've been into Home theater for almost 30 years so I don't know why I'm having such a hard time. I might just be too hard on myself. Someone may come over and either be blown away by my sound, or horrified. I'm trying to get someone from Audio Advice to come by, they're in Raleigh and I'm in Winston Salem.
Anyway, first world problems ;-)


----------



## DukeSweden (3 mo ago)

Update: I watched Star Trek Beyond tonight and I was blown away. And I'm not a fan of Star Trek/Star Wars at all.


----------



## Da Wiz (May 8, 2019)

There have only been a handful of Atmos encoded movies released with an immersive soundtrack created by a human sitting at a mixing board. Most studios won't pay for a sound engineer to create a true immersive soundtrack. Instead, they take the 5.1 or 7.1 soundtrack, run it through Dolby Surround (the new processing mode Dolby includes with Atmos to convert 2, 4, 5, and 7 channel sound tracks into 11 channel soundtracks). That would be OK if Dolby Surround was any good. But it sounds TERRIBLE--everything is processes sounds dull, gray, washed-out, lacking detail and dynamics and has an "opaque" character that makes phantom images between speakers terrible. DTS:X soundtracks appear to be created the same way for the most part... they run the 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks through DTS Neural:X that is DTS's equivalent to Dolby Surround. Neural:X sounds better than Atmos, but not all that much better. On a 1-10 scale, Dolby Surround is a "1" while Neural:X is worth maybe a "5". The best immersive sound you will ever hear from a 5.1 or 7.1 soundtrack (or stereo for that matter) comes from Auro-3D's ability to constantly put correlated ambient sound in the height channels without even having a person sitting at a mixing console. Instead of decoding Atmos with Atmos. Auro-3D gets a "10" on that same "use of height channels" rating scale. Auro-3D will receive the original 5.1 or 7.1 soundtrack and use that to create a much better immersive listening experience than using Atmos or DTS:X for decoding. If your processor or AVR does not have Auro-3D, you are pretty much at the mercy of the TERRIBLE Atmos and DTS:X soundtracks being created for most movies. How many "good" Atmos or DTS:X soundtracks are there? I've lost count in the last 18 months but prior to that, for every 100 movie titles released with Atmos or DTS:X soundtracks, perhaps 5 of them have Atmos or DTS:X soundtracks with human intelligence involved in creation of the soundtracks.

Star Trek Beyond is a GREAT example of how bad Atmos and DTS:X soundtracks are... watch the scene when 100s of small alien ships land on Enterprise and drill though the hull to gain access to the interior of Enterprise where combat is being fought in corridors and key systems like the engine room. Throughout all of this mayhem with weapons fire and all sorts of other ambient sounds, there is NOTHING in the height channels... ASOLUTELY NOTHING. Turn off or disconnect the amps connected to your 5.1 or 7.1 speakers so only the height channels are powered, but don't change any other settings. Listen to this scene again. If you were on the Enterprise during this invasion, there would have been sound coming from everywhere including overhead. At one point in the scene, FINALLY something appears in the height channels if you are using Atmos; "Red Alert" announcements in the computer's female voice. That's the ONLY sound in the height channels for this entire scene if you use Atmos for decoding (note, if that movie has a DTS:X soundtrack, the same observations apply). For most of Beyond, there is absolutely NOTHING in the height channels. If I recall correctly, I heard less than 4 minutes of sound in the height channels during the ENTIRE 122-minute movie. This is very typical of Atmos and DTS:X soundtracks. I don't count musical instruments being placed in the height channels since that has NOTHING to do with immersive sound. The soundtrack is still **** if 95% of the sound in the height channels is some kind of instrument(s) playing in the soundtrack versus realistic ambient sound AND sounds that happen over head in real life.

The fact that Auro-3D makes better use of your immersive sound system without even decoding Auro-3D soundtracks (many movies released in Europe have Auro-3D encoded soundtracks rather than Atmos or DTS:X) speaks VOLUMES about how Hollywood has failed to deliver on the promise of immersive soundtracks. I would have felt like I wasted a ton of money on adding height channels if I did not have Auro-3D decoding in my home theater system. Auro-3D processing of stereo music (using a lossless version of the music 16/44.1 or higher) is the FIRST processing of stereo music I've ever heard that makes the processed multi-channel sound from stereo music sound better than stereo. In fact, playback music to hear how BAD Dolby Surround and Neural:X are compared to Auro-3D decoding of stereo music. The same ratings apply here: well-recorded stereo music processed with Dolby Surround gets a "1" rating on a 1-10 scale. Neural:X decoding of stereo music gets a "5", high-quality playback of lossless music decoded with Auro-3D to 11 or 12 channels (Auro--3D can be 11 or 12 channels with the 12th channel being a speaker directly overhead they call the "voice of god" speaker) deserves a "10" in comparison. Interestingly, sound-wise, I would give stereo playback of good quality stereo recordings an "8" on this same scale. This has applied to two very different systems... 5.1 in one room and 12.1 in the other room. I can use Auro-3D to process stereo music into 5.1 and even that sounds better than straight stereo playback. I have NEVER liked ANY processing of stereo music until I tried it with Auro-3D... now I avoid stereo completely.

Dolby is even using harsh business tactics to ruin Auro-3D. For a while, Dolby soundtracks were encoded in such a way that they could not be processed with Auro-3D. When Auro-3D was alerted to that, they sued Dolby and won, forcing Dolby to stop disabling soundtracks from being decode-able by Auro-3D. Dolby has also done predatory hiring of Auro-3D employees trying to weaken Auro-3Ds position by preying on their technical resources. Of course, Dolby could simply have reworked their failed product to make Dolby Surround less sonically damaging and make it actually put ambient immersive sounds into the height channels. But instead of making their product work better, Dolby is trying to screw Auro-3D at every possible opportunity. That alone should make you WANT to support Auro-3D. Asian brand AVRs and processors have not widely supported Auro-3D. The only brands I know for sure have Auro-3D decoding are Denon and Marantz--there may be others I'm not aware of. Today, Denon & Marantz include Auro-3D in their "better" products. For 2 or 3 years, Denon and Marantz would SELL you Auro-3D as a $200 software upgrade for their AVRs and processors, but a couple of years ago, that was dropped and Auro-3D started appearing as a standard feature. Many high-end AVRs and processors offer Auro-3D. If Auro-3D did not exist, I would be calling the entire immersive sound revolution a complete boondoggle and a waste of consumer money and time. But Auro-3D is the ONE bright spot in the whole immersive sound "thing" and it's the ONLY processing that exists that makes EVERYTHING sound better--whether the source is stereo, 4.0, 4.1, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, Atmos, or DTS:X.


----------



## DukeSweden (3 mo ago)

Thanks for the detailed response, but if I didn't make it clear, I ditched Atmos. All the stuff you pointed out is bad enough, but on top of that I have an arched ceiling, I mean really arched. 10' on one side, 25' on the other. I watched Star Trek Beyond in 7.2 (that's how I'm set up now). That was the experience I so thoroughly enjoyed last night.
Anyway thanks again. It's good to know it's not my tin ear that was messing up the Atmos "experience".


----------



## Da Wiz (May 8, 2019)

sounds like a sloped ceiling... not arched... arched *a curved ceiling) would be MUCH WORSE than sloped (but still flat) ceiling. As long as your main speakers were both under the high side, or both under the low side, the sound quality you enjoy in that room could be QUITE excellent. If your setup has one main speaker under the low side of the roof and the other speaker is under the higher side of the roof... that's really-really bad for sound quality.


----------



## DukeSweden (3 mo ago)

Da Wiz said:


> sounds like a sloped ceiling... not arched... arched *a curved ceiling) would be MUCH WORSE than sloped (but still flat) ceiling. As long as your main speakers were both under the high side, or both under the low side, the sound quality you enjoy in that room could be QUITE excellent. If your setup has one main speaker under the low side of the roof and the other speaker is under the higher side of the roof... that's really-really bad for sound quality.


That last thing you said. One speaker was 4' from the ceiling, the other about 15' from the ceiling. Yes, sloped, not arched. Facing the screen, the right side is 10' and the left side is about 18'. The room continues another 15' or so and the ceiling at that point is 25'.


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Thanks for the info, @Da Wiz! Confirms I've missed nothing much by not Atmos'ing. You'd think Dolby would have made sure Hollywood was on board before launching it...

Regards,
Wayne


----------



## DukeSweden (3 mo ago)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Thanks for the info, @Da Wiz! Confirms I've missed nothing much by not Atmos'ing. You'd think Dolby would have made sure Hollywood was on board before launching it...
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


Definitely. The 7.2 experience is far, far more of a sensory experience than Atmos.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I’ve had a much different experience. While some mixes are definitely meh, some are excellent. Even better is some Atmos music. There are a couple albums by booka shade and Yello that put sounds right out into the room. On one of the songs there’s a kind of water dripping sound and it sounds like it’s landing on my neck. Makes me want to grab a towel lol. 
Everyone will have different mileage of course. But I’m very lucky to have 7.3.4 in my living room. I’d never even consider going back.


----------



## Jack N (Oct 7, 2006)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> You'd think Dolby would have made sure Hollywood was on board before launching it...


But that would make sense! We can't have that! Have you lost your mind?! 😀


----------



## DukeSweden (3 mo ago)

Well, I have discovered the cause of my discontent. My 22 year old sub crapped out! I didn't even realize until I did a phase test, turning 1 sub off and checking the decibel level, then turning the other sub off. When I turned off my new sub, the old sub sounded absolute cagotz. I went to Best Buy and bought another sub, matching the new one I bought a few months ago. And the earth moved...
This is one happy camper.


----------



## Jon67 (Jul 8, 2008)

Glad to hear you figured it out!


----------



## DukeSweden (3 mo ago)

Jon67 said:


> Glad to hear you figured it out!


Thanks! It's taken me over 30 years but I have finally achieved chest thumping, seat vibrating nirvana


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

DukeSweden said:


> Definitely. The 7.2 experience is far, far more of a sensory experience than Atmos.


Cant blame Atmos for a bad layout…


----------



## DukeSweden (3 mo ago)

willis7469 said:


> Cant blame Atmos for a bad layout…


I'm not blaming anything. For me personally, that's the case.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

DukeSweden said:


> I'm not blaming anything. For me personally, that's the case.


I do believe in your case 7.2 is better. But what I mean is that I think the way the setup was, there were too many obstacles for it to work properly. I believe if you sat in a room with a properly set up Atmos system, you might have different thoughts. Glad you got your bass sorted out!


----------



## DukeSweden (3 mo ago)

You ain't kiddin'! I'm grateful that I'm getting the fantastic audio that I am. I would have loved to have Atmos speakers set up as well but even if the room was good, my AVR won't do it, it's either one setup or the other, and I've already wasted too much money to add another unused unit to my collection.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yeah it’s hard working within the confines of budget, room limitations etc. At the end of the day, as long as it sounds good to YOU then that’s what counts. No room is perfect and certainly mine isn’t either, but I’m amazed all the time by immersion and depth and so glad I’ve taken the time to build and calibrate to work as good as it can.


----------



## DukeSweden (3 mo ago)

I'm sure I could do a better job of calibrating. When I got the new sub I ran YPAO (the Yamaha calibration tool), and it set both subs at -10db, the lowest it could go. Never got that reading before. Gain on the subs was at 12:00. Which brings up a question I've had for a while. Before doing the YPAO, should I set the AVR back to factory defaults first? For example, I've got the EQ way down on my sub, and the other speakers tweaked to taste, and I notice running calibration doesn't change those settings. I hate to redo it given how great everything sounds right now.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

No I wouldn’t reset it. Ypao should overwrite everything anyway. The reason it set them to -10(max low trim level) is because they were too high. I would try and set each one individually to about 71 or 72db and hopefully that gives you a combined 75 for ypao to work with. IME you want to be set around -7 or -8, then you can bump up a little and still stay out of the + range which can introduce distortion into the signal.


----------



## DukeSweden (3 mo ago)

willis7469 said:


> No I wouldn’t reset it. Ypao should overwrite everything anyway. The reason it set them to -10(max low trim level) is because they were too high. I would try and set each one individually to about 71 or 72db and hopefully that gives you a combined 75 for ypao to work with. IME you want to be set around -7 or -8, then you can bump up a little and still stay out of the + range which can introduce distortion into the signal.


Yeah I have them at -8.5db right now. About to watch an action movie. I'll see if it works for me. Thanks!


----------



## Wardog555 (11 mo ago)

DukeSweden said:


> I'm not blaming anything. For me personally, that's the case.


If you placed them almost directly above you often on the ceiling, then you will think otherwise. What you had was front heights and it doesn't have enough angle for 2 atmos speakers.


----------

