# Need Help with A/V receiver pick!!



## gregnash (Dec 31, 2009)

So the time has come to do ye olde' upgrade to the receiver. With my recent purchases of the last year it has come time to retire my old Sony STR-DG500 receiver and upgrade to something with HDMI and analog upscaling/upconverting. 

Budget: ~$500
What I have so far.....
TV: Vizio VL420M (42" 1080p LCD)
Cable: Motorola HD STB (will be replaced with M-Card or S-Cards to be integrated with the TIVO HD - HDMI)
PVR: TIVO HD (will be here in a couple days) (HDMI)
DVD: Sony BDP-S360 Blu-Ray (HDMI)
Gaming: Xbox360 (HDMI) and Nintendo Wii (Component)

Everything is currently hooked into the back of the TV with an Optical Out going to the receiver.

So I have been looking at different receivers and cant seem to pick one..out of these which is the best bang for the buck:
- Denon AVR-1910/790
- Denon AVR-1610/590
- Onkyo TX-SR507
- Onkyo TX-SR607
- Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K
- Pioneer VSX-919AH-K
- Yamaha RX-665BL
- Yamaha RX-565BL

All of these are within my price range and are readily available from places like Electronics Expo, Accessories4less, Amazon and the like. All have AT LEAST 3 HDMI in (I would like 4 but 3 will work just fine) and seem to have the analog to HDMI upscaling to either 1080i or 1080p (would prefer 1080p but the only real source that will need it is the Wii). 

I keep going back and forth between different ones and cant seem to make a decision. Currently the system will only be powering a pair of 10yr old Polk Audio RT25's but I plan on building a pair of good DIY floorstands this spring/summer as well as a subwoofer (will have a plate amp). This system will be used for about 70%movie/gaming and 30%music.

Any suggestions of one v. another or will I pretty much be good with any selection out of those? Also, would I get a lot of benefit from one that has Audessy MultiEQ over 2EQ or should I even worry about the Audessy? I sorry for all the random questions in there.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I would go with an Onkyo TX-SR806:http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...ra2-130w-X-7ch-Hdmi-806-Receiver-Black/1.html
It is on Sale for 499 and is 600 Dollars off the original MSRP. It is a Refurbished unit, but Accessories4less is an Authorized Dealer and the unit has a 1 Year Warranty. 

Compared to the units you are looking at, the 806 offers much more power, THX Ultra2 Certification, and much more. As well it should considering it originally retailed for 1100 Dollars.

I am a huge fan of Audyssey MultEQ. MultEQ is far more powerful than 2EQ and will yield better results. Unfortunately, the 806 does not have MultEQ XT which is the most powerful version, but MultEQ is still excellent. For the budget, I really do not think anything comes close.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

I've just ordered the Pioneer VSX-919AH-K..

After reading several "expert" reviews, comparing reviews with other brands in the same price range..and reading dozens of owners comments on several different forums..it was obvious that the Pioneer is a bit of a stand out when it comes to features and performance!!

The only difference between the VSX-1019 and the 919 is that the 1019 has 4 HDMI connections and the 919 has 3..So if you don't need 4, you can save the extra dollars..

The other thing that impressed me is that MCACC set up program is very accurate, and is considered even better than the Audyssey system!


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The one issue I have with the VSX-1019 is its All Channel Driven Performance: http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/pioneer_vsx-1019ah_av_receiver/index4.html

Pioneer makes excellent AVR's and MCACC was out in front of Room EQ offering a solution years before other Manufacturers. Where MCACC is at a disadvantage is, at least the initial version, did not work below 50 or 60 Hz.

While the TX-SR806 is not as powerful as its predecessor the TX-SR805, it is still a pretty powerful AVR.
And at 600 Dollars off, represents stellar value.
Cheers,
JJ


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## gregnash (Dec 31, 2009)

Thanks for the responses guys.... That Onkyo TX-SR806 is definitely a nice find at Accessories4less.com.... However, I am not a fan of buying refurbished items and would rather pick something up new if I can. I have heard that the Yamaha's represent music better than the others but then again I have seen all of those units have great reviews.... 

Prof. Shack Moderator.... I actually saw that Mens Health is giving the Pioneer VSX-1019 their pick of the year for A/V receivers and like I said having 4 HDMI items is more of a "future proofing" then an actual need. It would be nice to have but since I currently only have 3 HDMI items (HD Tivo, Blu Ray, and Xbox 360) I dont really see a need for the 4th. 

Can you post your findings once you get your 919 and have it setup? I am interested as this purchase will only happen in a couple months, not right now.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I was not aware Men's Health reviews Home Theater Components. You learn something new everyday I suppose. Good luck in your future purchase and I hope it brings you many years of sonic bliss.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

gregnash said:


> Thanks for the responses guys.... That Onkyo TX-SR806 is definitely a nice find at Accessories4less.com.... However, I am not a fan of buying refurbished items and would rather pick something up new if I can. I have heard that the Yamaha's represent music better than the others but then again I have seen all of those units have great reviews....
> 
> Prof. Shack Moderator.... I actually saw that Mens Health is giving the Pioneer VSX-1019 their pick of the year for A/V receivers and like I said having 4 HDMI items is more of a "future proofing" then an actual need. It would be nice to have but since I currently only have 3 HDMI items (HD Tivo, Blu Ray, and Xbox 360) I dont really see a need for the 4th.
> 
> Can you post your findings once you get your 919 and have it setup? I am interested as this purchase will only happen in a couple months, not right now.


I certainly can..
I'm upgrading to the Pioneer from an earlier model Yamaha..It doesn't have the codecs for HD sound..
It will be a very interesting comparison for me as I've always liked the sound of the Yammy, but now with Blu-ray I need to hear the right HD sound of DolbyTRuHD and DTS-HDMA..

Here's a review from the magazine JJ mentioned on the VSX-1019..
http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/pioneer_vsx-1019ah_av_receiver/


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## gregnash (Dec 31, 2009)

Thanks yeah I was reading that one and ready another one that was posted on the Pioneer website. However, in the review the author said that he was unimpressed with the upconversion from analog to HDMI from any source that was below 480p... also, that the system did not do a good job of upgrading lower sources to 1080p but rather to 1080i. Where I can see this possibly being a problem is that the HD Tivo outputs a 1080i source which means I will lose some video quality if it upgrades to 1080p and the Nintendo Wii is 480i/p and will not upgrade to 1080p that well either. While these are not deal breakers I am curious as to HOW bad the loss is?!

In that review the recommend the Pioneer 919 & 1019 for entry level as well as the Onkyo 607... Depending on where I buy them I can save a bit, with the Onkyo 607 being the cheapest through Accessories4less for just under $350. On top of that the Onkyo has the Faroudja video processor and Audessy 2EQ.... I would eventually like to put a 5.1 system in the living room so I THINK the Audessy 2EQ will do a better job than the Pioneers but I could be very wrong.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

gregnash said:


> Thanks yeah I was reading that one and ready another one that was posted on the Pioneer website. However, in the review the author said that he was unimpressed with the upconversion from analog to HDMI from any source that was below 480p... also, that the system did not do a good job of upgrading lower sources to 1080p but rather to 1080i. Where I can see this possibly being a problem is that the HD Tivo outputs a 1080i source which means I will lose some video quality if it upgrades to 1080p and the Nintendo Wii is 480i/p and will not upgrade to 1080p that well either. While these are not deal breakers I am curious as to HOW bad the loss is?!


From what I've read, most low to mid range receivers don't do a good job of up conversion from analog to HDMI..
If all your devices have HDMI connections, then no up conversion is needed..It's only component to HDMI that you will lose some image quality..



> In that review the recommend the Pioneer 919 & 1019 for entry level as well as the Onkyo 607... Depending on where I buy them I can save a bit, with the Onkyo 607 being the cheapest through Accessories4less for just under $350. On top of that the Onkyo has the Faroudja video processor and Audessy 2EQ.... I would eventually like to put a 5.1 system in the living room so I THINK the Audessy 2EQ will do a better job than the Pioneers but I could be very wrong.


I had seriously considered the Onkyo myself, as it seems a lot of people have them and seem to be very happy with them..
But after reading several reviews, I was most impressed with what they all said about the quality and ease of sound from the Pioneer..
Also, my first stereo Amplfier was a Pioneer!, so it's come full circle for me!! :bigsmile:


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## gregnash (Dec 31, 2009)

Thanks for the info prof!!! Seeing as I know a good, cheap place to buy the Onkyo's where is a good, cheap place to buy the Pioneers. I am really on the fence with these. I know that Pioneer makes good products and will only buy their car stereos because of the quality. A lot of people tell me that Pioneer is kinda like the Sony of the TV world... while still good, you end up paying more for the name than quality and I should look at others like Denon, Marantz, Integra, Onkyo and Yamaha. Seeing as really the only ones that fit my specs and where in my price range were the Denon, Onkyo, and Yamaha (aside from the Pioneers) that is why I listed those. Sorry but I refuse to buy Sony for many personal reasons. Anyways, enough with the :rant:


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Prior to Onkyo's HDMI 1.3 offerings, I had always used Denon and Pioneer AVR's as my SSP. The AVR immediately preceding my current Onkyo was a Pioneer VSX-49txi. I ended up selling my Pioneer to a good friend and sometimes question selling it as it really is a beautiful looking and sounding AVR.

Due to a predilection for inefficient speakers (Martin Logan, Thiel, etc), I have been using AVR's as SSP's for about a decade. It really was not until Onkyo's PR-SC885 and DTC-9.8 has there been dedicated SSP's that came close to offering the features and value that an AVR does when used as an SSP.

With the VSX-49, I had my first experience with Room EQ with MCACC and the results were an epiphany.
I continued with the VSX-49 until True HD and DTS HD came along when finally I reluctantly switched over to another AVR to have HDMI 1.3.

Onkyo's first HDMI 1.3 offerings the x05 Series were a sensation. Specifically the 805/875/905 Built in Japan, HDMI 1.3 months to years before other manufacturers, Burr Brown PCM-1792 DAC's, Audyssey MultEQ XT, Reon Video Processing and THX Ultra2 just to name a few aspects. Moreover these AVR's weighed 50 pounds plus and output over 100 WPC all channels driven.

I went with the TX-SR875 as I was not going to be using the amplifier section of the AVR which made getting the TX-NR905 less enticing. What was important was the Reon processing which is a core version of Realta. 

Realta is truly one of the best deinterlacing/upscaling solutions on the market and even Reon based processors pass all the major video tests: http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/608recfeat/index4.html
The entire article is quite a good read as well by the way.

While the combination of HDMI 1.3 and Reon were my primary motivations in choosing the 875, Audyssey's MultEQ XT had me intrigued as well. Audyssey came about in a collaboration between Tomlinson Holman of THX fame and Professor Chris Kyriakakis who were both at USC at the time.
The approach behind MultEQ is fascinating and complex so I will just provide a link to an article about it rather than butcher what it does:http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/807hook/

My experience with MultEQ XT has been fantastic. I honestly believe it has helped to provide the best performance I have ever had in my HT quest so far. I will say that Trinnov's EQ has me intrigued as well.

MCACC really is a great EQ as well and its adjustability after the process is a definite advantage over MultEQ. I can certainly understand why some prefer it. I can only say what my personal experience has been.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

Jungle Jack said:


> MCACC really is a great EQ as well and its adjustability after the process is a definite advantage over MultEQ.
> JJ


That was another reason why I chose the Pioneer..

Here is a review of best receivers under $1500 (Aus. that is)..Yes we pay through the nose down here..
It doesn't list the Pioneer, but might help you with your decision..


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

Sorry ignore that link..
I just realised that it's older models..


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

One thing I can tell is that the later Yamaha's in the price range are generally not getting good reviews..


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

gregnash said:


> A lot of people tell me that Pioneer is kinda like the Sony of the TV world... while still good, you end up paying more for the name than quality and I should look at others like Denon, Marantz, Integra, Onkyo and Yamaha.


I would have agreed with that statement awhile ago, but it looks like Pioneer have redesigned their products and are now right up there with the best of them..

One of the things that I've always believed about Receivers was the heavier they are ,the better they are!!

The new range Pioneers have now changed that belief, as they are now lighter than previous models with this new technology..and by all accounts are able to produce a higher quality unit for the low to mid price range!!


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
While the ICE Powered equipped units might be lighter than similar powered conventional powered AVR's, the 919/1019/21/23 units are conventional AVR's with Class AB power supplies.
The VSX-1019 weighs 19 pounds. I would imagine that plays a part in why the all channels driven output is under 30 watts.

If being used with efficient speakers and or a medium sized space, this might not be an issue. However, with inefficient speakers or a large room, this could be an issue. The same concern was voiced in the Home Theater Magazine review.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> While the ICE Powered equipped units might be lighter than similar powered conventional powered AVR's, the 919/1019/21/23 units are conventional AVR's with Class AB power supplies.
> The VSX-1019 weighs 19 pounds. I would imagine that plays a part in why the all channels driven output is under 30 watts.


I think you're right Jack and my guess is that Pioneer opted for reduced wattage, all channels driven..
But as I understand it, max.wattage to all channels driven, rarely occurs in normal HT conditions anyway, and unless you have VERY inefficient, power hungry speakers..or a VERY large room, it shouldn't be an issue..
One thing I did note was that Pioneer specify a clearance of 60cm. above the unit!!!..which is totally ridiculous, but it obviously runs very hot!!.So they are pushing a small power supply very hard..


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
That is absolutely the case. It is exceedingly rare when wattage needs exceed what the 919/1019 are capable of outputting. Furthermore, the 2 channel output is quite good and I am sure it will sound great with music. It is an attractive, fully featured AVR that is a stellar value.

I just wish CE Companies would be honest about rated power output in AV Receivers. In addition, to make a concerted effort to inform folks that the vast majority do not need 100 watts per channel in the first place.
Unfortunately, that is the first thing most customers look for is the power rating. I give Harman Kardon much credit for always being honest about their power ratings. Onkyo's upper level AVR's also come really close to meeting their rated power and exceed it into 4 ohms.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

gregnash,

This is the review that sold me, apart from all the owners comments..

Audio performance
The VSX-1019AH's sounds better than any $500 receiver we can think of. Looking over our notes for last year's Pioneer VSX-1018AH review, the two are similar, but the new receiver sounds like it has more guts and oomph, despite the fact that it weighs almost 10 pounds less.

Part of that can be attributed to two sound-enhancing features: S-Wave and Acoustic Calibration EQ. Both employ equalization to help improve the sound of your speakers, but S-Wave also compensates for your room's standing wave anomalies that can produce boomy or uneven bass response. We found S-Wave to be effective in the CNET listening room, but there's no guarantee it will net a positive effect in your room. We recommend listening to what S-Wave and Acoustic Calibration EQ sound like in your room.

They're both automatically turned "on" after you run MCACC--the menu to turn them off can be found on Page 64 of the owner's manual. As we said before, GUI is nicely laid out, but the VSX-1019AH is so jam-packed with features it can be difficult at times to find exactly what you're looking for. It took us way too long to get the Sound Retriever feature working, but ultimately we didn't find that it made much of a difference.

We had better luck with the VSX-1019AH's Auto Level Control that maintains a consistent volume in music and movies. To test its effect we went straight the DTS Master Audio soundtrack's navel battle scenes in the "Master and Commander" Blu-ray. The Auto Level Control worked like a charm, dialogue and cannon blasts were equal in volume level, so we could listen very quietly and not miss anything.

Of course, turning the ALC off and restoring full dynamic range sounded much better, but we were listening at much louder volume. Then the VSX-1019AH revealed all the tiniest details of sound; the creaking of the floorboards as the sailors in their heavy boots ran across the decks and the front-to-rear ambient sounds of the wind and surf filled the CNET listening room. Dialogue was exceptionally clear and articulate.

Next, we listened to the Dolby TrueHD soundtrack on the "Legends of Jazz" Blu-ray. The VSX-1019AH's clarity was balanced with a beautiful sense of warmth. Stand up basses had terrific weight and definition; each string pluck was distinct. Saxophones had the natural fullness and dimensionality that we can't remember ever hearing from a $500 receiver.

We compared the VSX-1019AH-K directly with Yamaha's RX-V665BL while playing Leonard Cohen's recent "Live in London" concert CD. The Pioneer's resolution presented a vivid sound, and the stereo soundstage was wide and deep. In fact the sound was so spacious, surround enhancement with Dolby Pro Logic II was unnecessary. Switching over to the Yamaha receiver, the soundstage was smaller, flatter, and less you-are-there realistic. The music's dynamics were scaled back.

Summing up, the VSX-1019AH's stellar performance makes it the go-to choice for sound-quality conscious midprice receiver buyers.

Video performance
The VSX-1019AH-K is capable of upconverting analog signals to its HDMI output, so we put it through our video testing suite. We connected the Samsung BD-P3600 via component video to the VSX-1019AH-K, with the BD-P3600 set to 480i output. The VSX-1019AH-K was set to output at 1080p over its HDMI output, connected to the Samsung LN46A950D.

We kicked off our video tests with Silicon Optix's HQV test suite on DVD. The first test is a resolution test and the VSX-1019AH was able to pass the full resolution of DVD, although we saw plenty of image instability in the horizontal lines plus other flickering. If this were a DVD player, we'd knock this performance harder, but just passing the full resolution is better than what we've seen on the Yamaha RX-V665BL or Onkyo TX-SR607. The next jaggies tests were worse; both a rotating white line and three pivoting lines were absolutely filled with jaggies. Finally, we looked at the 2:3 pull-down test, and the VSX-1019AH-K passed, as there was no moire in the grandstands as the racecar zooms by.

We switched over to program material and the first disc up was "Star Trek: Insurrection." The Pioneer had no difficulty clearly rendering the opening sequence, with the curved edges of the bridge railing and boat hulls looking jaggy-free. Lastly, we looked at the difficult introduction to "Seabiscuit" and the VSX-1019AH-K actually surprised us with its performance, showing very few jaggies on the slow pans over black-and-white photographs. In all, the VSX-1019AH-K's video performance is far from impressive when compared with quality upscaling DVD players or quality HDTVs, but it's the best we've seen from AV receivers in this price range this year and is probably good enough for those last remaining analog devices in your home theater.


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## dello22 (Dec 11, 2009)

Hello, noobee here, I here the talk about the efficiency of speakers and recievers, what detemines that and how do you go about putting together a system without hurting either one? I am starting in my room (13x15) with Samsung 50in. plasma and I have a Def Tech 3000 center, and I want to go with either DT bp8, or Mythos 2 or6 and bpx2 for rear, and I want to go with pioneer vsx23, will any of that set up work and if so, how can I make sure I don't hurt any of it?


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