# Audyssey XD32, final word for bass response?



## pmcneil (May 29, 2010)

I have an Onkyo SC-5508, equipped with Audyssey ('A') XT32. I agree with the reviewers, including Stereophile, who rated this alogarithm accessory of the year! My bass (and overall sound) has never been better. Importantly, XD32 'equalizes' two spatially separate subwoofers (mine are infinite baffle they rattle the room), compensating for distance and phase. WOW! The difference in bass response, accuracy and range, is amazing, and far beyond my previous solution, a Velodynne SMS1 equalizer.

ONE ANNOYING THING: If i accept the speaker ratings determined by 'A' for my fronts and center (full range, which they are), then the bass sucks! I assume this is because 'A', when it measures the bass response, does not turn 'on' any of the speakers it has rated (such as my fronts) as 'full range'. And, these of course interact with my subwoofers. Hence the best sound I get is setting everything to an 80 htz crossover.

But, still, I'm thinking, my fronts are full range! Couldn't this energy be utilized positively?

In other words, why is the bass equalization NOT done with ALL capable lower range drivers in play?

Or is it?!

onder:


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

> I have an Onkyo SC-5508, equipped with Audyssey ('A') XD32.


XT32. 



> In other words, why is the bass equalization NOT done with ALL capable lower range drivers in play?


Here's what Audyssey has to say.


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## pmcneil (May 29, 2010)

Yeah, here's a quote from that 'A' page...

"Here is a better rule: All speakers are Small. In today’s complicated AVR lingo that just means: If you have a subwoofer you should always turn bass management on. Always. Even if your receiver clings to the past and automatically sets your speakers to Large."

I think we've got it...ALL SPEAKERS ARE SMALL, except the subwoofer. 

Then why do they bother to rate some as 'BIG', e.g capable of < 80 hrs?


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## pmcneil (May 29, 2010)

New rule: Ignore anything audyessy xd32 suggests about the low end capacity of your speakers (exculuding subs). Set them to an 80 htz crossover.

No?


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## pmcneil (May 29, 2010)

Thanks, Senior Shackster, Eljay, from Canada, for pointing out my mistake: it is XT not Xd....but I hope this is not crucial to this discussion!


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

pmcneil said:


> Then why do they bother to rate some as 'BIG', e.g capable of < 80 hrs?





pmcneil said:


> New rule: Ignore anything audyessy xd32 suggests about the low end capacity of your speakers (exculuding subs). Set them to an 80 htz crossover.
> 
> No?


First, it is not Audyssey that determines whether the speaker is LARGE or SMALL but the manufacturer of the AVR or prepro. Audyssey simply measures the roll-off but the manufacturer determines the criterion.

Second, 80Hz is a rule-of-thumb but not a universal solution.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

On the sub cutoff frequency question, fwiw, I recently set up a sub in a stereo system with a 100 hz sub cutoff and while its off-center location wasn't noticeable most of the time, it really stood out on occasional notes & sounds, and I ultimately had to center the sub to cure the problem (the owner agreed to accept the inconvient location for the sake of comple centering of those few pesky notes). Numerous factors, of course, rolloff slope certainly a top contributor (don't remember it right off in this case). In my own experience, keeping that cutoff below 80 hz or centering the sub seems to be a safe rule of thumb for avoiding off-center localization. Hope the extra data point helps. Cheers.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

> ... ALL SPEAKERS ARE SMALL, except the subwoofer.


Yup. 



> Thanks, Senior Shackster, Eljay, from Canada, for pointing out my mistake: it is XT not Xd....but I hope this is not crucial to this discussion!


Nope, it's not crucial...and neither is this:


> ... capable of < 80 hrs?


< 80Hz.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

myersmail001001 said:


> In my own experience, keeping that cutoff below 80 hz or centering the sub seems to be a safe rule of thumb for avoiding off-center localization. Hope the extra data point helps. Cheers.


Agreed. My comments did not convey the point that the 80Hz rule-of-thumb should be the upper end of the range to consider, unless one has to compensate for weeny main channel speakers. I use 45Hz in one system and 40 in the other.


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## pmcneil (May 29, 2010)

Kal, 

I didn't realize that the manufacturer defines the bass 'crossover' point. But this is beside my point, which I don't seem to be making!

My point is, that IF one has full range speakers, most likely up front, then these ought to be a part, during bass equalization, of the signal produced (beeps, squawks or whatever they are called during the Audy setup routine) and thus a par of the bass measurement portion of the equalization routine. Now, xt32 does each of two 'subs' separately, namely those drivers attached to the 'sub out' lines. What about the other 'subs' in the room, namely the just mentioned full range speakers. Those are going to interact with the nominal 'subs'.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

pmcneil said:


> Kal,
> 
> I didn't realize that the manufacturer defines the bass 'crossover' point. But this is beside my point, which I don't seem to be making!
> 
> My point is, that IF one has full range speakers, most likely up front, then these ought to be a part, during bass equalization, of the signal produced (beeps, squawks or whatever they are called during the Audy setup routine) and thus a par of the bass measurement portion of the equalization routine. Now, xt32 does each of two 'subs' separately, namely those drivers attached to the 'sub out' lines. What about the other 'subs' in the room, namely the just mentioned full range speakers. Those are going to interact with the nominal 'subs'.


I am not sure what you are asking. Audyssey EQs the main channels all the way down to the -3dB point regardless of where you or the manufacturer puts the crossover point. If that is below the crossover selected, it is moot. If you lower the crossover below that point, you will be using a part of the spectrum where the speaker has limited output as well as deprived of EQ.


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

pmcneil said:


> ONE ANNOYING THING: If i accept the speaker ratings determined by 'A' for my fronts and center (full range, which they are), then the bass sucks! I assume this is because 'A', when it measures the bass response, does not turn 'on' any of the speakers it has rated (such as my fronts) as 'full range'. And, these of course interact with my subwoofers. Hence the best sound I get is setting everything to an 80 htz crossover.
> 
> But, still, I'm thinking, my fronts are full range! Couldn't this energy be utilized positively?
> 
> ...


May I give an example of how well XT32 is working for me? I can set direct mode to subs off or subs on with crossover at 80hz. My towers in-room response is flat to 35 hz. When listening to music I can't hear a difference. With movies, there is a difference if L/R signal has material below 35 hz. If I run my subs "hot" 3-4 dB, I can hear a difference between subs on/off with music because I am intentionally boosting the low end beyond the recording engineers expectation. XT32 is quite amazing in my opinion. 
As for energy being utilized positively, it is most efficient if the sub handles the lows and the towers handle mids/highs. Just because towers can reproduce 35hz does not mean they should. In most cases it is best to let the sub do the heavy lifting and take some load off the receiver.


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## pmcneil (May 29, 2010)

Kal Rubinson said:


> I am not sure what you are asking. Audyssey EQs the main channels all the way down to the -3dB point regardless of where you or the manufacturer puts the crossover point. If that is below the crossover selected, it is moot. If you lower the crossover below that point, you will be using a part of the spectrum where the speaker has limited output as well as deprived of EQ.


I'm asking a very simple question. Does Audyssey take into account the interactions of main channels with subs? And this SHOULD NOT BE IRREGARDLESS of where one puts the crossover point: it SHOULD be a matter of calculation, AFTER measuring, in the bass range, the input of all speakers, which might include two or more full range.

As I said, my sound is best if i artificially demote my fronts from full range (as measured by the manu and specified in their statistics) to 80 htz, which, I suspect, Audy considers the upper range.

IF this is the case, then any other choice for speaker settings (other than 80 htz) is not compatible with their calculations.


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## pmcneil (May 29, 2010)

I am not sure what you are asking. Audyssey EQs the main channels all the way down to the -3dB point regardless of where you or the manufacturer puts the crossover point. If that is below the crossover selected, it is moot.

Yes, of corse it does this. But NOT below 80 htz IN CONJUNCTION with other low bass sources. Do you agree that these additional, full-range speaker, 'subwoofers' will interact with the room, and dedicated subwoofers. I'm sure from listening that they will, and, I think, theory is on my side.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

pmcneil said:


> I'm asking a very simple question. Does Audyssey take into account the interactions of main channels with subs? And this SHOULD NOT BE IRREGARDLESS of where one puts the crossover point: it SHOULD be a matter of calculation, AFTER measuring, in the bass range, the input of all speakers, which might include two or more full range.
> 
> As I said, my sound is best if i artificially demote my fronts from full range (as measured by the manu and specified in their statistics) to 80 htz, which, I suspect, Audy considers the upper range.
> 
> IF this is the case, then any other choice for speaker settings (other than 80 htz) is not compatible with their calculations.


Ah. The answer is that XT and XT32 do not but since it EQs the mains to be flat to the roll-off frequency and the sub(2) flat up to the upper roll-off (usually 120Hz), raising the crossover still works. OTOH, Pro does recalculate the filters after you choose the crossover.


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## pmcneil (May 29, 2010)

Kal Rubinson said:


> Ah. The answer is that XT and XT32 do not but since it EQs the mains to be flat to the roll-off frequency and the sub(2) flat up to the upper roll-off (usually 120Hz), raising the crossover still works. OTOH, Pro does recalculate the filters after you choose the crossover.


OK, separate, 'unthinking' EQ of mains (if large, like mine, flat to 25htz) and subs is obviously not optimal, given the interactions (distance and phase, for example) that might and are likely to arise in the bass region. XT32 is great for those with two subwoofers (like me), for the reason that it does take these interactions into account, for the subs.

So, I agree, raising the crossover 'works', and is indeed gives a superior sound. But accepting the processor's setting of 30 htz, in my case, is theoretically and in practice a poor decision. The equalization has ignored how my 'large' mains are interacting with my two subs.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

pmcneil said:


> OK, separate, 'unthinking' EQ of mains (if large, like mine, flat to 25htz) and subs is obviously not optimal, given the interactions (distance and phase, for example) that might and are likely to arise in the bass region. XT32 is great for those with two subwoofers (like me), for the reason that it does take these interactions into account, for the subs.
> 
> So, I agree, raising the crossover 'works', and is indeed gives a superior sound. But accepting the processor's setting of 30 htz, in my case, is theoretically and in practice a poor decision. The equalization has ignored how my 'large' mains are interacting with my two subs.


That's why anyone as perspicacious as you are should have other tools to explore the situation more deeply. :T


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

pmcneil said:


> The equalization has ignored how my 'large' mains are interacting with my two subs.


No room correction system checks for that sort of interaction between subwoofers and speakers, just as they don't check for interaction between speakers (each speaker is pinged separately, never together). The best they can hope to do is make sure that levels and phase between subs and speakers are matched around the crossover point so that the transition is as smooth as possible.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

sdurani said:


> No room correction system checks for that sort of interaction between subwoofers and speakers, just as they don't check for interaction between speakers (each speaker is pinged separately, never together). The best they can hope to do is make sure that levels and phase between subs and speakers are matched around the crossover point so that the transition is as smooth as possible.


There are some that will do that but they are rare.


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## bluemax_1 (Feb 14, 2011)

pmcneil said:


> OK, separate, 'unthinking' EQ of mains (if large, like mine, flat to 25htz) and subs is obviously not optimal, given the interactions (distance and phase, for example) that might and are likely to arise in the bass region. XT32 is great for those with two subwoofers (like me), for the reason that it does take these interactions into account, for the subs.
> 
> So, I agree, raising the crossover 'works', and is indeed gives a superior sound. But accepting the processor's setting of 30 htz, in my case, is theoretically and in practice a poor decision. The equalization has ignored how my 'large' mains are interacting with my two subs.





Kal Rubinson said:


> That's why anyone as perspicacious as you are should have other tools to explore the situation more deeply. :T


Yep, which is why folks (especially the ones here) will check the crossover region with something like REW. There have been more than a few cases where measuring the post Audyssey results with REW and individually adjusting the delay (via the subwoofer distance settings) has resulted in an improvement in the crossover region (at least at the MLP).

This as been especially true in setups where there are 2 or more subs, separately connected to the Sub 1 and Sub 2 pre-outs.


Max


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

I just checked the results of Audyssey MultiEQXT with REW, and was able to make a significant improvement.









The green is after my adjustments. The measurements are 5 positions across my couch. 

Dan


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## primetimeguy (Jun 3, 2006)

What adjustments did you make?

And why are your adjusted curves 10db lower?


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

I separated them to make it easier to see.

I defeated all Audyssey EQing, then used the graphic EQ built into the Pre to boost the 63Hz on the mains and defeat the 120Hz range. Then I adjusted the parametric EQ on the subs in a serial fashion until I got the flattest response in the sub bass.

Dan


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## primetimeguy (Jun 3, 2006)

Ok, that makes sense. Can you post the comparison without the separation. 

Did you change any speaker levels (sub?) or change crossover settings?


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Sorry man, I canned the data. Is there something that's unclear? I might be able to elucidate it.

No, I didn't change any levels or crossovers. I had experimented with it earlier and found that Audyssey did those things as best it could be done.

Dan


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## primetimeguy (Jun 3, 2006)

Just hard to tell really how much things changed with your manual EQ with things offset and the large scale used. A bit of a change in the dip around 70hz, but odd how it shifted to the right. The only other difference I see is the lack of the Audyssey reference/roll-off at high freq. Just trying to see if you really made any "improvement" that's all. Do you hear a difference?

I'm very familiar with how Audyssey works, been using it for years.


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Very little audible difference. Just a touch more bass and treble. Not so odd that it moves--EQ/Phase changed right there not to mention that's where the crossover is.

You've graphed all the various ways that Audyssey can change your output? Nice! I found it a nice little piece of info.

Dan


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

The dip is smaller by about 5dB.

Dan


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

DanTheMan said:


> I separated them to make it easier to see.


Not for those of us who are R/G colorblind. :rubeyes:


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Didn't think of that. Sorry.

Dan


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## the_rookie (Sep 30, 2008)

The EQ is basically measuring the speakers sound output response in relation to there imperfections, co-related to the rooms imperfections as well.

No speaker has a 100% Flat Frequency response. A visual example is Sub A Plays; 20hz at 70db, 30hz at 72db, 40hz at 71db, 50hz at 68db, 60h at 74db. Now this reference material we are using has the same output volume and the AVR hasn't changed the amplification at all, staying the same. Now what the Audyssey is doing is measuring a wide band of frequencies in that sound to see what the volume is at all those frequencies.

We mentioned the room has an effect on the sound too, well other objects, the distance, the walls, and how far the speakers away from the wall all effect the volume too. What happens is, remember sound isn't a straight line to you, it is radiating like a wave in the pond. And how big or little that wave is has different effects on different objects. So the small waves or larger waves may be amplified or reduced due to objects such as a couch or coffee table in the room. So when it does the sounds during the test, it again is gathering the information so when you finalize it, it has a much flatter frequency response.

Now thats alot of fancy concepts. To put it into real life terms, it helps make the movies, music, etc. sound much more lifelike and more accurately represents how the movie was designed to sound.

And what others are saying is the Audyssey just measures the response and based on how low it goes during the test, is how the AVR will display the recommendations.

Now to answer a couple questions,


> My point is, that IF one has full range speakers, most likely up front, then these ought to be a part, during bass equalization, of the signal produced (beeps, squawks or whatever they are called during the Audy setup routine) and thus a par of the bass measurement portion of the equalization routine. Now, xt32 does each of two 'subs' separately, namely those drivers attached to the 'sub out' lines. What about the other 'subs' in the room, namely the just mentioned full range speakers. Those are going to interact with the nominal 'subs'.


IF one has full range front speakers it doesn't matter, what the bass management is trying to do is reduce the load on your Fronts, and have your sub do the heavy lifting. It is purely designed for low end bass, and not only is it usually much better, but doesn't play sounds above 180hz too well usually. But another problem with having a LFE channel and the Mains play full range is standing waves, or in other words the bass from your sub and fronts can cancel each other out. Making the sub do it from 80hz down is the best because it reduces the likelyhood of your bass being cancelled out.

Another issue is, above 80hz is when sound starts to be localized, meaning you are able to hear where its coming from and having a explosion come from your sub can be distracting, because in the LFE field, the mixer for movies places these sounds to come from speakers at his discretion. And universally the Fronts are in the front, not the side of the room, or beside the listener. But the sub can be placed anywhere, and often the best place for a sub is off center and in strange listening axis sometimes. But it doesn't matter because material below 80hz isn't localized, you just hear it.

So when setting it up, this is my opinion; At low settings I run my AVR Sub off, so the LFE is sent to my mains and makes them full range. This makes low volume listening a bit more natural, but at high SPL it will ultimately sound better and less strained with the Bass Mangement settings of 50-80hz per channel, and the LFE Filter at 80Hz, with Double Bass turned off.

Hope I was able to help a bit.


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Your ignoring the data on perception. Read up on the Haas Effect and read the Toole/Olive studies on the effect the room has on our perception. That direct FR is the dominant factor in what we hear as far as tone goes. Kate's and Salmi found a bit more detail, and Klippel rocked the boat.

Anyway, check out that research.

Dan


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