# Total newb, where to start?



## 89vision (Aug 6, 2012)

Hi, 

Been lurking off and on for the last couple of years. Just have not had the funds to really get started the way I want to. 

I was gifted a Sony str-d915, not sure if it's worth using, if not I can always use it for some cheap outdoor speakers no big deal. 

What I am looking for is a 2.0 kit to start with, for my living room television. I do have the tools available to build the enclosures if plans were provided. However I am open to buying pre-made cabinets to save time because I work 55-75 hours a week in a 6on/3off schedule. So basically off days are when this will get done, not in a rush at all.

I would like towers because I don't have a traditional entertainment center, I use a HTPC on a small cabinet under the TV. My budget is ~$1000.00USD for the speakers and reciever. I do not need 3-d, 4k, or atmos support. The system will be used for 80% movies/20% music. The room is 20ft x 12ft with a few openings into adjacent rooms. However this is a rental property so I am not looking to dial into the perfect match for the space. Next step is to add subs so tons of bass is not my goal.

Eventually I want to have a 5.2 or 7.2 setup that these first speakers can grow into as rears, when I am able to build/upgrade to new mains and a matching center. Unfortunately I don't think a center channel is going to be in the budget right now.

I have been looking into CSS or zaph kits but would like some suggestions because it's been a while since I priced anything out. What do you guys think?

Thanks, 
89

:help:
Tl;dr
What is the best bang for my buck I can get with ~$1000USD for a 2.0 starter stereo for 80% movies/20% music that I can add subs to later? (DIY kit preferred but I'm not afraid to buy used in the classifieds.)


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

89vision said:


> Hi,
> 
> Been lurking off and on for the last couple of years. Just have not had the funds to really get started the way I want to.
> 
> ...


is that $1000 including just the two speakers or does that include the new receiver as well?


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## 89vision (Aug 6, 2012)

I am thinking the receiver is going to have to be in the $1000 budget. 

Is it possible to "daisy chain" receivers to power new additions to the system? Like when I add more speakers can I use the original receiver in addition to the new one to power them? Or do I need to upgrade the receiver or start with one that has my end goal in mind of 5.2(7.2)? The end goal is probably 1-3 years away.


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

Its best for a receiver with your end goal in mind. 

I'd say $400 for the receiver and a pair of seos 12s from diysoundgroup.com should fit you nicely. The tempests most likely


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## 89vision (Aug 6, 2012)

Thanks for the replies!

I am a little confused however, if I'm looking correctly the speaker you suggest has a 12" woofer and a compression driver. 

With these speakers will they eliminate the need for dedicated subwoofers later?

Is it possible to use these as rears in the future, or add a matching center channel?


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

89vision said:


> Thanks for the replies!
> 
> I am a little confused however, if I'm looking correctly the speaker you suggest has a 12" woofer and a compression driver.
> 
> ...


No they won't eliminate the need for sub's. These 12 inchers are woofers. Not sub woofers and aren't tuned that low anyways. They can be used as rears later. Especially if you just build more. Although it might be better to keep them as mains and use the karma 10s or the alpha 8s as surrounds. Using the tempests as surrounds would be a bit overkill. As for matching center. Just build a 3rd one of the tempests and use it as a center. That's what many of us prefer to do rather than compromise with a horizontal center


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## 89vision (Aug 6, 2012)

When receivers list 7.1 vs 7.2 is this strictly due the number of outputs? 

In a 7.2 system are the 2 subwoofers sent identical signals? Or are they meant to perform different roles like directionality or different frequencies?

Is it possible to run 2 subwoofers with identical output using a 7.1 receiver? 

I'm wondering because I see some people have more than 2 subwoofers in their home theatres but I don't see any 7.4 receivers out there.


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

89vision said:


> When receivers list 7.1 vs 7.2 is this strictly due the number of outputs?
> 
> In a 7.2 system are the 2 subwoofers sent identical signals? Or are they meant to perform different roles like directionality or different frequencies?
> 
> ...


A 7.2 receiver just has twin sub outputs. Its not really necessary though since there is no difference in the two ports. Just makes it dummy proof. Just get an rca Y splitter


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## 89vision (Aug 6, 2012)

Mike Edwards said:


> No they won't eliminate the need for sub's. These 12 inchers are woofers. Not sub woofers and aren't tuned that low anyways. They can be used as rears later. Especially if you just build more. Although it might be better to keep them as mains and use the karma 10s or the alpha 8s as surrounds. Using the tempests as surrounds would be a bit overkill. As for matching center. Just build a 3rd one of the tempests and use it as a center. That's what many of us prefer to do rather than compromise with a horizontal center


Ok thanks. Why is a horizontal center a compromise? I see them so often I thought the wider soundstage was a benefit not a hinderance. 

Soundstage is another question of mine, would these tempests need stands? I do not currently have anything to place these on. I was thinking a shape like the Fusion 4 Quad was going to be suggested, can you tell me why you suggest the tempest over a tower for my needs? Sorry just learning and want to know your thoughts.


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## 89vision (Aug 6, 2012)

Mike Edwards said:


> A 7.2 receiver just has twin sub outputs. Its not really necessary though since there is no difference in the two ports. Just makes it dummy proof. Just get an rca Y splitter


Ok thanks again, I guess this is what most do when using 2+ subwoofers.

So if I find a 7.1 receiver that is a better deal than the 7.2 I can safely just choose it instead with no loss in quality of the final product?


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

89vision said:


> Ok thanks again, I guess this is what most do when using 2+ subwoofers.
> 
> So if I find a 7.1 receiver that is a better deal than the 7.2 I can safely just choose it instead with no loss in quality of the final product?


most of the time they get dual sub outputs on a 7.2 receiver by just using an internal y splitter and creating 2 ports... so no, there's no difference in quality. otherwise us HT nuts who have 6+ subs on the same receiver would be in trouble


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

89vision said:


> Ok thanks. Why is a horizontal center a compromise? I see them so often I thought the wider soundstage was a benefit not a hinderance.
> 
> Soundstage is another question of mine, would these tempests need stands? I do not currently have anything to place these on. I was thinking a shape like the Fusion 4 Quad was going to be suggested, can you tell me why you suggest the tempest over a tower for my needs? Sorry just learning and want to know your thoughts.


there's a lot of articles on why horizontal MTM designs are compromises, but this is one of the most succinct ones

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=89614


as for stands... they'll need stands... but you'll wanna custom build them. cuz the seos desings are beasts for depth and width. OR you can actually build the stands INTO the seos speakers and have them built as a full tower.... basically just extending the height of the speaker and installing a false bottom to keep the original internal volume for the actual speaker. there's a million different ways to skin that cat. 

as for tower vs. seos, vs. bookshelf... its' more a form factor between the two. not because of any inherent benefit of a tower. a seos tempest will have roughly the same volume as you standard tower speaker you normally see in a store, but because of it's width (12 inch woofers and a horn) it needs a shorter heighth to still keep the internal volume needed ... basic geometry really. to keep the same internal volume it needs to re-adjust the measurements of the external width, height etc


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

89vision said:


> Ok thanks. Why is a horizontal center a compromise? I see them so often I thought the wider soundstage was a benefit not a hinderance.
> 
> Soundstage is another question of mine, would these tempests need stands? I do not currently have anything to place these on. I was thinking a shape like the Fusion 4 Quad was going to be suggested, can you tell me why you suggest the tempest over a tower for my needs? Sorry just learning and want to know your thoughts.


An MTM has a very directed off axis response since two woofers spaced far apart are generating the same frequencies. The dispersion is very wide in the same physical alignment as the orientation of the woofers, and response is lobed when its rotated the other way. What that means is an MTM is best suited and will have a very good dispersion if placed vertically. If placed horizontally, the narrow dispersion is now oriented to sweep across your room. Nothing is wrong with a horizontal MTM, but physics will only let it have flat response for about a ten degree window in front of the speaker. Most rooms have more seating than what fits in a ten degree window in front of the center channel...


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## 89vision (Aug 6, 2012)

Alright I'm sold on aiming for 3 matching front speakers to make things simple for me. 

Man these Fusion 12's are huge. And if I need to build them onto stands, that is even crazier. Going to need to check on the WAF. 

Also I am wondering about being able to power the Fusion 12's, for my receiver budget of ~$350-400 I am seeing power outputs of ~100-150W per channel. Will this not be way under powering these speakers? For large cones used for mids like these don't they perform best with higher power? How much quality am I sacrificing by playing these at <200Watts per channel and then not turning them up all the way all the time?

For TWO Fusion-12's with crossover assembly and buying the flat packs it comes to $838.00

For THREE Fusion-10's also with XO assembly and flat packs it comes to $819.00

What do 2 Fusion 12's offer me that the 3 10's won't?

What would you choose for your first step into a home theatre? 

If I was less concerned with max value and more with SQ in the long run, what might I do differently?


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

89vision said:


> Alright I'm sold on aiming for 3 matching front speakers to make things simple for me.
> 
> Man these Fusion 12's are huge. And if I need to build them onto stands, that is even crazier. Going to need to check on the WAF.
> 
> ...



lol, they are pretty big. wait till you get into the sentinels or cheap thrills...those with the 15 inch woofers are monstrous. my wife nearly had a heart attack when I made 3 of those for my mains and center.


as for wattage, you'll do fine. these things are EXTREMELY high sensitivity drivers and can be powered with most receivers. I have a 110 watt per channel receiver that makes these things tear walls down. all that extra wattage means is you can power them to louder measures. remember for every doubling of the wattage you only get an extra 3 DB headroom

the fusion 12's will play lower on their own without a sub, but the difference between the Fusion 12's and Fusion 10's with a sub is fairly negligible. 

you can also save yourself some money and not buy the assembled crossovers, it's really not hard to assemble them yourself


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## 89vision (Aug 6, 2012)

Yea I can probably get by assembling them myself, I've got access to a soldering gun and someone that has a bit of experience. 

Currently my setup is just the TV speakers, and not likely to change unless I build something. So anything is going to be a huge improvement. 

I am definitely going to add subs in the future. With this in mind and considering I have a bit of space limitations I think I might go with the 10's. 

Any comments on this route in the long run? Will I be able to get to reference level with 3 Fusion 10's and 2 subs when I have the funds to add them?
2 rears will be the next step after that. (Possibly 2 more speakers lastly if I get a 7.1 receiver)


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

89vision said:


> Yea I can probably get by assembling them myself, I've got access to a soldering gun and someone that has a bit of experience.
> 
> Currently my setup is just the TV speakers, and not likely to change unless I build something. So anything is going to be a huge improvement.
> 
> ...


you can never have too much subs ... 

as for reference... most likely , depending on your room size... you find you need a bit more oomph, you can always switch the Fusion 10 pure's to the rears and make something like the tempest or sentinels


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## corradizo (Jan 19, 2014)

What about scaling down a bit to start and do the fusion6 or 8 and then move them to surrounds when ready? 3 of yhe 6's with flat packs is $354 before shipping. Then you can spend more on a reciever. I would recommend one with the audyssey xt32 and atmos to future proof. I like to buy them refurbed to save money, joining club onkyo (free) gets you access to the refurb stuff. 

My 2.

Pete


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

I'd do the fusion 8's at the very lowest. the fusion 6's wouldn't do very well as surrounds if he did anything above a fusion 10 or fusion 8 as the mains.


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## 89vision (Aug 6, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions. 

What is a good ratio for spending on a receiver vs the rest of equipment.

Mike you said I should buy a receiver aiming for my final goal, so what do you think about spending a bit more on the receiver up front? Am I going to be able to spend ~$400 on a receiver and be able to power 2 fusion 8's and 3 fusion 10's(12's) adequately? 

I didn't know the rears needed to be so big or had to match the mains in a particular way. 
Is it possible to wire 2 speakers together as a center? I know the kits change over time, so if I get 3 Fusion-8's now, and want to use them later as my surrounds, I'm going to need 1 more, and if the kit is different I don't want to have to replace them all. So then if I'm going to need to buy 4 of them, that kind of puts me back in the price range of 3 10's or 2 12's(a little less but only about 10%). If this is the case I would probably just go for the bigger speakers right away.

So confused >.>

Also just as a general concept question, if I go the route of horns now, I am basically committed to using horns for the entire system correct? Mixing horns and dome or ribbon tweeters is not a thing is it? I have not really heard a set of horn speakers before. The reviews are amazing though so I don't think I would dislike them. 


And for a totally off topic question, is there anything I can do with my old *free* Sony str-d915? Could it power anything I have been considering so far? I think it is a 3 channel 115W per channel receiver according to the specs. 
What about 2 very cheap speakers for a garage just for something to have on my breezeway and while I am working out. (I am buying a squat rack for my garage)
Any small sealed kits out there under $100 or close to it?


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

89vision said:


> Thanks for the suggestions.
> 
> What is a good ratio for spending on a receiver vs the rest of equipment.
> 
> ...



$400-$500 for the receiver is more than enough to power the 15's and 12's let alone the 8's... I have a set of 15 inch cheap thrills (basically an in between kit that is between the Karma 15 and the Sentinels) and I have way more than enough power. remember just because they CAN handle that much power doesn't mean they NEED that much power as on the spec sheets. these are EXTREMELY high sensitivity designs and don't require a lot to make it sing. sure you could unlock them a bit more by adding in a set of amps.. but it's not needed. especially for your budget requirements (I'm sure as third party people we could recommend you $15,000 in equipment EASILY ) 

no one ever knows if the kit will be changed, but really, it's not hard to replicate it. you can get all the parts from parts express by themselves and build it from the part list included in the kit. 


and yes, I would match them all with tonally matched speakers (aka if you go with hons, I wouldn't mix them with other types). I've mixed my rears for for a while with hons and they just CAN'T keep up with the mains adequately ...


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

89vision said:


> Or are they meant to perform different roles like directionality or different frequencies?


Generally, running more than one sub can yield more, but not necessarily better, bass. Placing the second sub in a proper acoustical location relative to the first sub--and to the room boundaries--helps smooth out nulls in low-frequency standing waves without aggravating the peaks. 

Extreme nulls cannot be fixed using traditional equalizers, but their impact can be lessened using acoustical bass traps. The cost of just a single bass trap can approach that of a good subwoofer, so adding a second sub is often the best approach for lower budgets, and for keeping the theater area uncluttered.


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## slyons (Sep 17, 2012)

Have you considered buying a receiver used? It may be beneficial for you to do so. 7.1 or .2 are old tech so therefore, you'll find plenty used. That way you can buy the better speakers. You're likely to hear a big difference between the 10" & 12" etc... Craigslist has bunches depending on where you live. Make sure you check to see if all channels work or buy from someone you can tell they took care of it. 

On another note, I hate passive crossovers. They rob power from your speakers & aren't adjustable. I would get an amp that has DSP built-in, then you can tweak it to the desired outcome or the best outcome with what you have. If you do a passive your stuck unless you replace parts and rebuild. Today power is cheap. The gentlemen on the forum, will have opinions on which amps are in your price range. 

I would buy a used receiver, a new amp & the better speakers to stay within budget or be very close. If it goes over your budget, since your not in a rush, maybe you could increase the budget and save up some extra.

P.S. You'll need a 4 channel amp to bi-amp the L/R channels'


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## 89vision (Aug 6, 2012)

slyons said:


> On another note, I hate passive crossovers. They rob power from your speakers & aren't adjustable. I would get an amp that has DSP built-in, then you can tweak it to the desired outcome or the best outcome with what you have. If you do a passive your stuck unless you replace parts and rebuild. Today power is cheap. The gentlemen on the forum, will have opinions on which amps are in your price range.


If I go this route what wattage amp should I be looking for? About how much am I looking to spend on this? Brands, features, etc?

Do DSP's perform the same function as crossovers?

Are the passive crossovers something that are going to be useful or not depending on what subs and extra speakers I choose? Is this the reason you suggest a DSP, because depending on what I add they may become less than optimal?


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

I'm actually going to say that a passive crossover is the best for a newbie, especially when it's as fine tweaked as the SEOS ones are. active crossovers are cool and all but very few speakers use them due to them taking a lot of work to setup and get dialed in properly.


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## corradizo (Jan 19, 2014)

To circle back, this is your living room right? So not a dedicated theater? Not to be a downer but I should mention that if WAF is potentially a concern, you may want to make some dummy speakers to approximate size to know what you are getting into. The speakers we are talking about can get kinda big. I bought a sub long ago for my livingroom only to pull it out of the box and have my wife freak out and then sold it on craigslist the same week to a lucky local buyer. Luckily she's cool with me stuffing the basement media area with subs and my ugly Behringer 212xl pa speakers so long as upstairs looks "normal".


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## slyons (Sep 17, 2012)

From a purely set up perspective point of view, I'd agree. However, if you are someone willing to learn a little the most versatile way is active DSP. Passive is a set it and leave it proposition. I like to tinker and passive is old news...

As far as amps it's really taste and preference. I personally like Crown. However, for your price point & DSP Crown won't fit your budget. Alot of folks here like Behringer iNUKE or EP. A friend of mine who has a bar runs, the Behringer and it does well for him. I'm sure if you ask people will help.

DSP = Digital Signal Processing

Yes, DSP will handle your Hipass, Lowpass, volt limiter, delay, pre eq & eq etc... The limit of the DSP functionality is based on the price & manufacturer.

P.S. While Bi-amping is great it does cause you to require more channels of amplification because, the hi & mid driver via a passive xover are typically run into one channel in lieu of one driver per channel typical of bi-amping. You can run multiples of the same driver on one channel as long as they are on the same side i.e. L/R


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## 89vision (Aug 6, 2012)

corradizo said:


> To circle back, this is your living room right? So not a dedicated theater? Not to be a downer but I should mention that if WAF is potentially a concern, you may want to make some dummy speakers to approximate size to know what you are getting into. The speakers we are talking about can get kinda big. I bought a sub long ago for my livingroom only to pull it out of the box and have my wife freak out and then sold it on craigslist the same week to a lucky local buyer. Luckily she's cool with me stuffing the basement media area with subs and my ugly Behringer 212xl pa speakers so long as upstairs looks "normal".


Yes it is for a living room right now. I am renting though so the room is going to change within the next year or 2. No clue then. I am a bit limited on space in the current room, if I were to build 3 fusion 12's there would be barely 2 ft between each one.

Of the builds I have looked at I don't see anyone putting on cloth grille covers, can I do this with these speakers or no?

I still haven't run it by the WAF, I go on days off tomorrow night and will talk about it. 

This whole passive XO vs DSP thing I need to read more about I guess. In what ways will I be limiting myself if I go with a passive XO? Again the room these are going to be in is not their final resting place. What happens if I get a DSP amp down the line, do I remove the XO's?

@sylons - your edit kind of lost me, sorry. I currently have a cheap receiver the sony str-d915. Usable or garage sale?

Thanks again everyone.


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## 89vision (Aug 6, 2012)

For sake of comparison, if the WAF comes back negative, what is a similarly priced 2.0 or LCR setup that looks more modern or WAF friendly?
Again looking to spend ~$1000USD for receiver and LR/LCR?


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

A very nice speaker kit from PE

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rs722cbk-speaker-kit-curved-gloss-black--302-971

A simple AV receiver with enough power to drive them and rear speakers as you add them later on...

http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V675-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B00B981F1U/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_17?ie=UTF8&refRID=06BQVF12HGYRKCWSY67Y


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## corradizo (Jan 19, 2014)

Those look nice. They are 4ohm though. Will that reciever be able to drive them?


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

corradizo said:


> Those look nice. They are 4ohm though. Will that reciever be able to drive them?


On the website is has a Dynamic Power rating into 8-4-2 ohms so I dont see a problem with it unless you like very loud volume levels...

And that combo puts you in at $110 under budget... so you have enough for a Bluray player too...

The speakers will need stands which you can easily make or buy on PE as well ...


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

These FLUANCE speakers are also highly rated / have built in 8 in subs / have a lifetime warranty for $499 pair



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007IWKX14/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d1_i2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=05R45BCY76J1WQPBJPG2&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200422&pf_rd_i=507846#customerReviews


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

89vision said:


> For sake of comparison, if the WAF comes back negative, what is a similarly priced 2.0 or LCR setup that looks more modern or WAF friendly?
> Again looking to spend ~$1000USD for receiver and LR/LCR?


the Dayton's on PE are pretty decent, and so are a few others, just to let you know, there is ALWAYS a trade off. with the Tempests or Fusion pure's you're gonna get a bulky design, but you won't be able to get sound quality that good with most other pre-built or DIY speakers... they easily surpass speakers 3-4x they're price.


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## Pilk (Sep 2, 2013)

Let me chime in here. The Tempest 12's are pretty big...but really fantastic speakers. There's no hiding them but I think, if the room can handle the size and you can handle the wife, they're worth it. That said, the 10's or even the 8's will shine. I'm getting ready to build the a Fusion Vibe-6 5.2 setup for my son's wedding present. Its a small room and I can almost guarantee they will outperform theyre size. As for a receiver the Yamaha Rx-V675 is the best buy right now on Amazon, which includes a Belkin BT adapter for $400. I've shopped it going that route. 

I love the Diysoundgroup stuff...inexpensive, different, great dynamics and I love the sound. They might not be for everyone but I don't think there's a better value out there if you can do the finish.


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## Pilk (Sep 2, 2013)

89vision said:


> For sake of comparison, if the WAF comes back negative, what is a similarly priced 2.0 or LCR setup that looks more modern or WAF friendly?
> Again looking to spend ~$1000USD for receiver and LR/LCR?



I wouldn't be afraid to go with the Fusion 8 Alchemy L/R and the Alchemy center. Put that Yamaha on there and you in.


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