# 22" Fi Buick Rendezevous 14 cubes @ 12Hz



## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

SORRY NO PICS
obviousely, the 22 doesn't even exhist yet... but here's stage 1 complete



Took some quick measurements today, have about 48" X 32" X 24" externally, going with a 3" X 22.5" X 77" slot port. That makes 14.8 cubes before sub displacement.

Making up for any errors, 14 cubes @ 12Hz  IN-CAR


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

What are you going to play in a car that will reach to 12Hz... :scratch:


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> What are you going to play in a car that will reach to 12Hz... :scratch:


I won't be surprissed if he says that it will be used with a DVD player :bigsmile:

(I haven't used mine on my CTS yet, I just use it for the navegation DVD because you can't watch a movie if the car is moving :yes


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Exactly, I am not much for sitting in a car to watch a movie anyway... and there is very little music that extends below 30Hz. I think tuning to 12Hz is expending an awful lot of power for naught... power that can be used to work where it is actually needed. I would tune it to 30Hz or there abouts and wait for my ears to burst or my eyeballs to pop out, whichever occurs first. :yikes:


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

Sonnie said:


> What are you going to play in a car that will reach to 12Hz... :scratch:


absolutely nothing. read the LLT tutorial about tuning lower than you will be listening. I don't want the majority of the output being recreated to be played via the port.

that was a lie to make 1 of several points that i always seem to have to remake.

point 2: I will mostly play the same songs over, and over, and over again that go the lowest. Hopefully as well, as we now have much higher Xmax and the ability to make 15" 18" and 22" drivers function properly, and now power is of abundance, more and more information sources (CD's, DVD's, XM, SIRIUS, whatever) (Music, Movies, sine waves.... cuz yes I will play with sine waves a lot because I can...doesn't mean you have to) Hopefully more and more source info will keep having more and more lower and lower info as we keep increasing the ability to re-create it, hence the ability to be able to hear/feel/enjoy it when we couldn't before. not because it is useless, but was very difficult to obtain appropriate levels to enjoy in the first place




salvasol said:


> I won't be surprissed if he says that it will be used with a DVD player :bigsmile:
> 
> (I haven't used mine on my CTS yet, I just use it for the navegation DVD because you can't watch a movie if the car is moving :yes


whether or not I use a DVD player, I will tune as low as I possibly can



Sonnie said:


> Exactly, I am not much for sitting in a car to watch a movie anyway... and there is very little music that extends below 30Hz. I think tuning to 12Hz is expending an awful lot of power for naught... power that can be used to work where it is actually needed. I would tune it to 30Hz or there abouts and wait for my ears to burst or my eyeballs to pop out, whichever occurs first. :yikes:


it is for music. if i get a dvd player, will be even better. no MOST music doesn't contain info below 30Hz, and I won't listen to MOST music MOST of the time. I will play a bunch of low low songs over and over a lot of the time because that is what i enjoy. I do not enjoy what you enjoy.

I will never, ever tune any higher than 27Hz. Car, home. Music, movies. If that makes me a moron, then i guess I will continue to have to listen to these same coments over and over again, as I have for the last 5-10 years since realizing the reason I hated ported enclosures was because everyone else tunes way to high for MY TASTES. I hated ported and only liked sealed, till i learned I could make it the way I like it.

As for power waste... lets all just pretend I'm nmaking a sweet 14 cubed sealed box for it, and ignore the fact that my excursion will be significanly reduced and my output slightly increased way down low, where I actually do play the majority of the time, unlike most. Just pretend it's sealed, and I'm wasting nothing. I know if i tuned higher then I would get significantly more output, but THAT IS NOT WHAT I WANT. 

So anyone that has posative things to say, they would be much more appreciated. I always welcome constructive critisizm, but not as far as tuning is concerned. I have my own experience, i have debated it for years, and I have learned it will just go nowhere. I am tuning low. Don't like it? to bad.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Whoa Nellie! No one was intending to ruffle your feathers. I believe we were both being very positive and giving very positive advise. Pardon me for trying to help. To each his own... go for it. :T


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

Sonnie said:


> Whoa Nellie! No one was intending to ruffle your feathers. I believe we were both being very positive and giving very positive advise. Pardon me for trying to help. To each his own... go for it. :T




I have always had to defend my desire to tune "too low". I get offensive really easy when it comes to my tuning freq and airspace. I know you are one of the knowledgeable posters here, i watch ya... so I'd prefer to hear critical details from you. Do you think 22.5" X 3" will suffice... things like that. I don't think i'll be playing a whole lot of sub 20Hz info, since it really is rare... so i think the port will still help from 20Hz on up, there's a lot of songs with 20-30Hz info! If there was a lot of 12-20Hz I could see the port area maybe being a problem... and when i am showing off with sine waves... which I know I will be doing a LOT... I'm guessing I should be OK... but what do you think?


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## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

kryptonitewhite said:


> I have always had to defend my desire to tune "too low". I get offensive really easy when it comes to my tuning freq and airspace. I know you are one of the knowledgeable posters here, i watch ya... so I'd prefer to hear critical details from you. Do you think 22.5" X 3" will suffice... things like that. I don't think i'll be playing a whole lot of sub 20Hz info, since it really is rare... so i think the port will still help from 20Hz on up, there's a lot of songs with 20-30Hz info! If there was a lot of 12-20Hz I could see the port area maybe being a problem... and when i am showing off with sine waves... which I know I will be doing a LOT... I'm guessing I should be OK... but what do you think?


The closer your port's Height:Width ratio is to 1 the better. Such a configuration minimizes physical impedance within a port. Additionally, with a 77" long port first resonance will be at about 88Hz. With a port resonance this low it would not be advisable to crossover above 50Hz if a 4th order slope is used.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

:yeahthat:


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

avaserfi said:


> The closer your port's Height:Width ratio is to 1 the better. Such a configuration minimizes physical impedance within a port. Additionally, with a 77" long port first resonance will be at about 88Hz. With a port resonance this low it would not be advisable to crossover above 50Hz if a 4th order slope is used.


ya I don't like the 1:9 general rule of thumb, and after reading the LLT thread by Steve, I finally converted back to round ports. I really want to do a 10" pipe... but that's just not possible for the car. I've planned on getting a 50Hz module and a 250Hz module for the sub out on 1 of the 2 Audio Control 6XS's... 1 for SQ/comp and 250Hz for showin the kiddies that a 22" can hit as hard as 8 10's/daily

then the "terrible port resonance" will give that slam/tightness way on up there... 80Hz from a 22" will learn them that don't no know better


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

Sonnie said:


> :yeahthat:



and I'll have 4 Extremis 6.4's off a KX850.4 either sealed or @ 40Hz in the doors... once again tuning lower than expected using range...


all 24dB slopes from a pair of 6XS's (unless I sell the brand new unopened one I have now and get a Rockford 360 er sumthin...) basically Adire Kit LCR crossover points/drivers but Usher tweet swapped with vifa

2 Vifa XT25TG30's 3.5kHz on up
2 Adire FR125S's 750Hz-3.5kHz
4 Adire Audio Extremis 6.4's 50Hz-750Hz
1 22" Fi Audio IB 10Hz-50Hz


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

> Do you think 22.5" X 3" will suffice


Hang on a minute. Whether it will suffice or not will depend on how the sub models in a specific application. It's impossible to answer the question since the sub doesn't even exist.


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

Mike P. said:


> Hang on a minute. Whether it will suffice or not will depend on how the sub models in a specific application. It's impossible to answer the question since the sub doesn't even exist.



1 thing determines port velocity... total Vd. We have been given the total Vd. We can assume the worst, which is 2X the Vd of an IB18. 

Then I will add... I am sure 90% of the time, I will not be driving the beast to it's limits. In-car, I see very little excursion needed from this thing, tuned, sealed, bandpass, free air....


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

Hey Jordan,

I don't think it would be wise to apply a LLT theory in a car environment. Don't misunderstand (check my signature ). I have been enjoying my car sound system for years. I like music loud and deep :yes:.
I have listened to much of my preferred music in car and in my theater and unconsciously used to compare the qualitative behaviors all the time. I'd like to point out my car's sub is tuned around 28-30 Hz, while my HT subs are around 13 Hz.
There is definitely a difference in bass depth on few tracks, but it's not night and day (anyway my car still shakes much more :rofl. 

Although there is an advantage in depth at home, there is a major inconvenience as well of such a low tune: noise!!
Manytimes I'll see the amps fighting to produce very low signal that is not originally intended to be in the song. I'll find myself shaking a little bit while I shouldn't at all, and that somehow spoils the experience.
If I had the space in my car, and also assuming I had all the needed power and driver excursion, I would probably tune a little lower than 30 Hz, but *NEVER below 20 Hz *. I think at that point I would not be missing a single vibration while I would somewhat eliminate parasite air.
I hope this helps, take it or leave it.


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

I'll take it!


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

ok ok ok... jus sec...




Blaser said:


> Although there is an advantage in depth at home, there is a major inconvenience as well of such a low tune: noise!!
> Manytimes I'll see the amps fighting to produce very low signal that is not originally intended to be in the song. I'll find myself shaking a little bit while I shouldn't at all, and that somehow spoils the experience.



That's y i have way way too much power for each driver  I don't need 200 watts for my vifa tweets. sure, they're rated 150 watts each... but 200 watts of tweet in-car? hahaha! I love super loud super high like I love super loud super low... but not no 200 watts!

350 watts for a pair of 4.5"ers??

1000 watts for 4 6.5's? most people could use my mid bass amp to run a pair of 12's or a 15!

I plan on getting 2 KX2500.1's if I can get this in D2. 5,000 watts RMS or more. Will I be even giving this thing 3,000 watts continuous? I sure hope not! I like to:

Make it easy on the amps

Have a ton of headroom so when peaks come, I am still totally linear and effortless!


 

If I don't get that coil option, I'll just have to go with a Maxximus or Warhorse


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

Great! I'm having up to 4 KW output as well for the subs. I didn't mean they had problems when I said fighting. I meant there was an activity while there shouldn't 
Sorry for my poor expression.

BTW, My car sub hits much more than RS meter can tell (and that's 126 db uncorrected).


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

Blaser said:


> BTW, My car sub hits much more than RS meter can tell (and that's 126 db uncorrected).



at what freq range? got vids and pics?


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

I have pics but don't know where they are hidden on my computer... Well it's while playing songs with dynamic bass like "the way I are" for ex.

I forgot to tell one very important thing: while tuning is 28-30 Hz, I have pretty flat FR down to 20 Hz in car!! Now imagine if tune is 20 Hz :bigsmile:


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

blaser said:


> i have pics but don't know where they are hidden on my computer... Well it's while playing songs with dynamic bass like "the way i are" for ex.
> 
> I forgot to tell one very important thing: While tuning is 28-30 hz, i have pretty flat fr down to 20 hz in car!! Now imagine if tune is 20 hz :bigsmile:


i want pics!!!!!


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

Blaser said:


> Hey Jordan,
> 
> I don't think it would be wise to apply a LLT theory in a car environment.


Are you saying the idea that tuning well below desired range of main play so that the port isn't the main source of output does not apply to car audio as it does in HT?? HMMM? 

A lot of trouble comes from ports, which is why SQ is debated with them. Group Delay, Transient Responce, Port Resonances (in my case, during SQ I hope to keep most out and in SPL/teaching class/fun, my resonances will be desired!), Impedence Variations.... yaddda yada....



I WANT PICS! What amp's are you running? What music do you listen to?


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

Jordan,

Take it easy. I mean a car environment is much different in behavior than a home environment. The LF gain in a car is much higher than a room. Also mainly music is played in a car while movies are more likely in HT. Space is a problem in car and generally not at home. Take a sub that is flat in an anechoic room and it would be unbearable in a car.....
I bet you will never hear any port noise in car whatever tune you'll be using:R .... as sub would be most likely in the trunk, and music playing @ 130 db.
My system is less performant than what you describe above:

4 * Kenwood speakers, 7"*10",320W Peak (HQ 710 series)
Clarion 50*4 RMS amp
Dual Sony Tweeters (front)
subwoofer: JBL W15 JTI in a 100 L box tuned around 30 Hz
Sony extreme 900 W (RMS) amp 

There is nothing wrong in designing a sub with a 12 Hz tune, but is not a good engineering practice, and a waist of resources and space since it would be useless.

My listening habits are very versatile. I do listen to many things: Starting from "Prodigy to Celine Dion", passing by my beloved Canadian artist "Snow"...

My turn: You should imperatively try modeling with winISD or equivalent, otherwise you're losing your time "speculating" my friend


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

kryptonitewhite said:


> obviousely, the 22 doesn't even exhist yet... but here's stage 1 complete


Hey, are you trying to entertain us?? :heehee: What's your choice based on? The 22" MTX is available if I'm not mistaken.


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

3.5 cubes @ 27Hz

http://realmofexcursion.com/videos/Kicker/l715.13.wmv

5.1 cubes @ 19Hz

http://realmofexcursion.com/videos/Alpine/typer15.5.wmv

http://realmofexcursion.com/videos/PowerAcoustik/mofo15.3.wmv

http://realmofexcursion.com/videos/PowerAcoustik/mofo15.4.wmv

Other vids
http://realmofexcursion.com/videos/Adire/fr125s4.5.1.wmv

http://realmofexcursion.com/videos/AscendantAudio/avalanche15.6.wmv

http://realmofexcursion.com/videos/AscendantAudio/avalanche15.7.wmv

http://realmofexcursion.com/videos/AscendantAudio/6.5.1.wmv

http://realmofexcursion.com/videos/AscendantAudio/poly6.5.2.wmv


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

Blaser said:


> Jordan,
> 
> Take it easy. I mean a car environment is much different in behavior than a home environment. The LF gain in a car is much higher than a room. Also mainly music is played in a car while movies are more likely in HT. Space is a problem in car and generally not at home. Take a sub that is flat in an anechoic room and it would be unbearable in a car.....
> I bet you will never hear any port noise in car whatever tune you'll be using:R .... as sub would be most likely in the trunk, and music playing @ 130 db.
> ...


Yes, I know car and home are different. I'm still tuning low and going large

Yes, I know car gain is much more than HT... which HELPS get me closer to what I want for an FR curve. As you see from an above post, I have tuned to 27Hz and 19Hz and many more older ones that I no longer have pics and vids of. I know. I have known for years. And I have grown tired of rehashing the same things over. This is what I want. You can do as you like.

I know what I will be playing in car. I know what info can be found on CD's vs DVDs.

I know how much space cars and homes have, and how much MOST people are willing to sacrifice. I am getting an SUV ONLY to take up the whole back end for my box. 

I know how enclosure, equalization, crossovers, listening environment, ect. alter FR curve.

I'm not really worried about my port cross sectional area. I was saying I would rather you knowledgeable people talk to me about how to improve my design in any other way other than trying to convince me to change my tuning and box size, because that is obviousely not going to happen.

I disagree it will be useless. I agree for YOU it would be. But you wouldn't do/play the same things I will do/play.

I like some of your music tates, I loved Smack, Firestarter, Diesel.. that whole album. I love the lows in the Titanic soundtrack. Snow? Informer?? Lady With The Red Dress???

I used to sit around for hours and hours, days and days, modeling with WinISD Pro and Bass Box Pro 6. I am done. What I have learned is:

I want my box as big as possible, I want to tune as low as possible, I want high Xmax, Xmech (mag,sus,lim, whatever), low Fs, low inductance.

Can we move forward please?

I'm not really speculating. We are told it's a high Xmax, low Fs driver with a lot of motor to back it up. Yes, I'm speculating, no I don't have modeling software programed into my head. But can we just move on??

I do appreciate your input, I do, but I have debated this a million times, and my mind is made up on this portion.


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

Blaser said:


> Hey, are you trying to entertain us?? :heehee: What's your choice based on? The 22" MTX is available if I'm not mistaken.


Yes, I am, cuz obviousely I'm not heeding any advice.
My choice is based on: Vd. Large area, large Xmax, basically it sounds like it's going to be a Tumult/Brahma/Avalanche/IB18/Maelstrom-X type sub, only larger. You may have trouble guessing at what that alignment may be like, but I don't. It should (and may not) have a lower Fs and higher Xmax. Larger cone, more Mms, but then larger Cms. For the added Sd from 18" to 22", it can't maintain the same 30mm Xmax of an IB18 and get double the Vd, so the Xmax is obviousely going to be higher. It's going to be for IB so I don't think the compliance will be much stiffer, similar Fs and efficiency. But an 80lb motor...

Come on guys, I'm not trying to say I got it all figured out, but you guys say you need a manufacturer to tell you their driver can handle this and do that. Well I'm getting Sony Xploded then, cuz they can....

This is such a waste. Either you get it or you don't.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

> but you guys say you need a manufacturer to tell you their driver can handle this and do that. Well I'm getting Sony Xploded then, cuz they can....


We are here to help people where ever we can. We try to give advise based on and within the stated specs of a sponsors product. If you want to plug your sub into a 240 volt receptacle, go for it. 



> This is such a waste.


Agreed.


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

Mike P. said:


> We are here to help people where ever we can. We try to give advise based on and within the stated specs of a sponsors product. If you want to plug your sub into a 240 volt receptacle, go for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.


If the people trying to help would listen to the person who wants help's question, and answers the things that person is asking, rather than trying to force their own opinion on something other than what the person asking has repeatedly politely asked not to comment on any further, things would be a lot easier.

If a dude has a Honda that he took the little ricer motor out of and put in a beefy American motor, and he is having trouble with the carburator, if you can't get past how you disagree with him choosing to take out the ricer and put in a small block American motor and just help him with the carburator, instead of talking him into putting back in the little ricer fuel injected, after the third or 4th time.... just leave the guy alone then.

But the moron that has said carburator would still like some others who have knowledge on carburators to coment on...said carburator



please?

I know i'm not asking for specific help, really, i am wanting opinions and thoughts and ideas, but less debate on the dead horses... maybe that leaves nothing left to be said


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I agree... not much else to be said. Go with what you are planning and you should be happy. :T


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

Sonnie said:


> I agree... not much else to be said. Go with what you are planning and you should be happy. :T


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

I think everybody said what he had. I hope to see a build thread very soon. Good luck Jordan!

This thread is closed.


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