# Cedar Creek Cinema



## Sonnie

It's about time! :sweat: It is finally finished! :jump:

Cedar Creek Cinema Construction Thread.

We can now define new meaning for :hsd: and it's "Cedar Creek Cinema". :bigsmile:

*All of the images is this thread are mostly older pics. This room has been updated fifty-eleven times since its creation.

Below is older info, older pics and older equipment that has been updated.

*
*For the most up to date pictures, please visit: http://www.cedarcreekcinema.ws/

* 
With 4 Fi Audio Q18's (Rise of the Eighteens) and a pair of Audiopulse AX15D2 AXIS 15's (Building the Pulse) in a seriously sealed 3800 cubic foot space... what would we expect. :dumbcrazy:

The Pulse subs with the Audiopulse drivers from reside in each front corner. Front speakers are Martin Logan Spire's with the center being a ML Matinee. The Spire's have their own powered woofer that really has remarkable extension down to about 30Hz. The equipment cabinet was built by my local cabinet guy, Steven Ward. Thanks to all the guys in my Equipment Cabinet Design thread for the ideas. The 2.35:1 screen is 125" diagonal. 




















The equipment consist of the Onkyo 876 Receiver, an Oppo BDP-83 Blu-ray player, four Behringer EP2500 amps bridged mono powering the Audiopulse subs and the Fi Riser Q18 subs... each load at 4 ohms. The Panamax units handle all the power protection requirements and switching everything on. The amps cannot be all switched on at the same time or it pops the 20 amp breaker. They draw a nice surge at start up, but never exceed 3-4 amps during use. We will be adding a Dish Network 612 HD DVR where the Adcom 515 is filling in space for now.











Here's a closer look at the Pulse subs. I used a textured finish on these that turned out fairly well. The build project is located in the The Pulse Subs thread.


















It is impossible to notice any imperfections in the velvet... or the screws used to hang the covered panels... when the lights are down and the screen is lit. There is zero reflection where the velvet is located, which even extends out 48" on the ceiling from the front wall. I plan to add another 48" between the current panel and the return air duct. While the ceiling is painted flat black, there is still some reflection where the velvet ends. It is not really a distraction, but I know it's there. :sarcasm:


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## Sonnie

Touring on... the new construction amounted to us tearing out the former Cedar Creek Cinema that occupied half of the garage and using the entire garage for the new HT room. Now we have to use the back door to enter the house. This use to be what we called the side entrance door... even though it has always been on the back of the house, it was on the side of the garage.

As you enter the back door now, we have the cinema hallway where you can enter the house on the right or the HT room on the left. In the hall we have a few of our oldie but goodies hung on the walls with plans to add more.











This Pink Floyd Division Bell poster cost us 10 bucks... the frame, well... it was a LOT more. We picked up that poster back in 93 when we went to the Pink Floyd concert. This is the first time we have actually had any where to hang it. This view is from within the house.











Then we have the entrance into the HT room with double doors. This wall has two 5/8" layers of drywall, a 2x6 blown insulated wall, a 3/4" sheet of plywood, green glue and another 5/8" sheet of drywall. Of course, blocking sub bass is the most difficult part with only what seems like faint thunder in the distance when in other parts of the house or outside.


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## Sonnie

Entrance into the room is on the side of the riser. Here you get a good look at the carpet we fell in love with since it has all the colors of the room, tan, brown and black. We got it from Town & Country Flooring in Troy, Alabama. Scott and Lana are a couple of crazy folks, just like us, but easy to deal with. We did not want to go back with a solid color, so we opted for this commercial carpet design with 1/4" firm padding. You can also see the lights installed to keep anyone from tripping over or off the riser when it is dark inside.











Here's a shot with the lights on...











Here's another shot of the carpet upholstering... these installers were really good at working all of this out. It literally 4 days to carpet the hallway and this room, with the small bit of tile on the step in the hallway and entrance way. They were very particular about it. Also in this pic is one of the ports to the Fi Riser Eighteens (project thread pending). That is truck bedliner painted on the end of the riser and the side of the riser step... very durable.


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## Sonnie

On the back wall are the Fi Riser Eighteens (4 x Fi Q18's) which Scott at Fi Audio customized for this installation. See the construction thread: Rise of the Eighteens for full construction details. Scott really went out of his way to help me with this install and I appreciate his help. As well... I cannot say enough good about these drivers... they don't move, the house does. :hsd: A pair of Monster Traps from GIK Acoustics flank the back wall. Bryan was very helpful, as always, in helping me figure out what to use in the room initially... we may do some more acoustic treatments later on if we determine they are needed.











Here's a closer up shot of those Fi Riser Eighteens... and the GIK panels... and the Martin Logan Clarity surround speaker...




















Those Fi Q18's are serious subs...











We are taking donations to fill up our DVD cases. :sad: It seems I sold a large percentage a while back and we are now down to a handful. 











Our very own Wayne Pflughaupt will be happy to see the track lights. When he and his wife visited us a couple of summers ago, the one thing he struggled with was reading the spine of a DVD.


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## Sonnie

The motorized recliners are from







. Roman is a great fellow to deal with and has the best prices on Berkline Theater recliners that you will find. 











These things are so very comfortable... almost too comfortable...


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## Sonnie

As noted earlier about the Monster Bass Traps from GIK Acoustics... the side panels are the GIK 242 Bass Traps... all in coffee cloth covering, which just happened to match very nicely. Barbara, who works with me at the office, helped me pick out the light sconces, which worked out really well and were relatively inexpensive.











There is a little history behind the wall color. We had picked out Lyndhurst Timber, a medium tan/stone color. I got about 3/4 of the walls painted with the second coat when I realized it was not drying the same as what was already on there. I was wondering what was up... :scratch: I get to looking at the code on the can and notice it is a few numbers off from the Lyndhurst Timber can I had left over from the first gallon. We only bought one gallon at a time... we wanted to make sure we liked the color before buying the last gallon. Come to find out, when I picked up the last gallon, the girl was matching up some other paint for me (for another part of the house) and it was not a Lowe's paint, so she had to scan the color to try and match it. Well... after she scans it, I hand her the color card for the Lyndhurst Timber and tell her I need a gallon of it as well. I suppose she did not realize it was a Lowe's color and she scanned it also. Sho-nuff, it was not a very good match at all... very distinguishable difference, but I just did not notice until it was on 3/4 of the walls. :duh: This color has no official name, so we just call it the "Wrong" color. We thought the colors turned out really nice in the end anyway and we are happy.











Our last HT room was somewhat plain and we wanted this one to be a little more stylish, but not overkill fancy or anything. We thought maybe adding some crown moulding would suffice, so we looked around and found what we used at Lowe's. The cost was very reasonable and it adds a nice touch to the room, along with the baseboard. 




















We are extremely pleased with everything, despite running into several hurdles along the way and it taking what seems like forever to get it all done. It just kept dragging out and on and on and on. I felt like I was working my fool head off every minute of the day, every day and every spare moment I had. Ultimately, it paid off with what we really wanted after we teased ourselves with the first HT room we built. I am not sure we could do anything any different or make any changes that could make us any happier with the end result. It sounds awesome and meets or exceeds our every expectation. :T


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## Mike P.

Awesome HT Sonnie! And I love The Division Bell poster! :T


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## KASR

Excuse the newb question - but could you explain the ports in the riser? Thanks!


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## robbo266317

Very nice build Sonnie. :4.5stars:


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## Prof.

Very impressive theatre Sonnie...and I bet it sounds awesome!! :clap:
A perfect set up for Anamorphic projection!!..? :yes: 

I have to say though, I would not like to be on outside seats in the back row! I think I would come out with a very sore back, with the amount of air those things are pushing!! :bigsmile:

I'm guessing those amps are putting out a lot of heat..Ventilation might be a problem in that cabinet..


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## Sonnie

Thanks guys!




KASR said:


> Excuse the newb question - but could you explain the ports in the riser? Thanks!


Those ports are what tune the frequency response of the Fi Riser Q18's. I am in the process of getting that build thread completed and will post a link to it soon. The build thread will better explain the design. This would be an LLT design.



Prof. said:


> I'm guessing those amps are putting out a lot of heat..Ventilation might be a problem in that cabinet..


The back is open, so they get a good air flow with the fans. Fortunately they are just warm to touch after several hours.


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## Bruce Fisher

wow - an amazing setup! Very nice


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

All those subs - forget about us coming for another visit. I'm *afraid *to go in there!!!

Regards,
Wayne


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## Sonnie

lol... Don't worry... we have some new stuff you can use on your false teeth so that they don't get shaken out. It worked really well on the wall... and even after some I had accidentally gotten on a board got wet, it was still just as sticky as ever. It's called Green Glue. I can guarantee it will hold those denture in. :T


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## Funkmonkey

Sonnie, that has got to be the most well thought out and executed home theater I have ever seen! The dental/crown from Lowe's is a very classy (and classic) touch. You must be getting some serious bass output in there... very impressive, the steps that you took, both to maximize your subs and to contain all that bass within the room. Truly awesome room. Very nice job. :thumb:


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## tonyvdb

Sonnie, once again you have made me very jealous in a good way. That's just fantastic work, some day if I'm ever am in your area I will have to come for a movie.

Superb job:T


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## SteveCallas

Wowee!!! Extremely nice theater Sonnie.

Looks like I may have to make an effort to pass through Alabama sometime in the next year - this one I gotta see.


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## Sonnie

Thanks again guys... and Steve... just let me know when you are passing thru. We would love to have you visit with us. :T

I plan to have a HT meet, but have not decided on whether to attempt to organize it this Fall or wait until the Spring of next year.


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## Rodny Alvarez

NICE!!!!!!:T

I need to make a trip to your house:yes:, do I need to bring a helmet so my brain wont shake so much:explode:

VERY VERY nice!!!


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## Sonnie

Thanks Rodny... and glad you made it home okay!

We can strap you down in one of the seats... no problem. :bigsmile:


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## salvasol

Sonnie said:


> I plan to have a HT meet, but have not decided on whether to attempt to organize it this Fall or wait until the Spring of next year.


Will the invitation be with paid expenses??? :whistling:....if that's the case, I'm in :bigsmile:

Nice work, after looking at the results you got, I think is time to plan for my new HT :yes:


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## Sonnie

I have no problem inviting everyone that pays their expenses... and mine too! :bigsmile:

How about big ole thick ribeye steaks. :meal:


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## sunnyhd

Wow I should have read your posts before I started one last month asking (what are the best measurements for HT) 
I got all the answer I was looking for from your Cedar Cinema 2 posts 

What an achievement… Those subs look quite scary :yikes:

Once I begin my constriction on my HT (27x17x10) from (28x18x12) I will be coming back to this tread to get some info and inspiration..:clap:

James


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## SLAYER

woah speechless ....


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## Zing

An utterly fantastic job!! As I'm sure you are, you should be quite proud!

utstanding:

:fireworks2:

:fireworks3:


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## Sonnie

Thanks guys!

I won't say "proud", but I am happy to have built it, satisfied with the results and we sure enjoy it. :T


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## HomeTeam

Amazing! Simply amazing! You did a great job.


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## bigdady1955

Sonnie... What a wonderful job!! I love the color scheme, and those subs look like monsters! A fine example of "how to do it right". Congrats!

Bigdady


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## rmk

Great job Sonnie. Love the ML's and the bass riser concept is one I'm trying out myself.


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## Sonnie

Thanks guys!

Rob... I would love to see your construction on the riser. Do you have a construction thread started?


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## rmk

Sonnie said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> Rob... I would love to see your construction on the riser. Do you have a construction thread started?


At this point, my subs (dual Danley TH-SPUDS) are my riser:yes:. I have more HT seats on order and plan on building an enclosure but for the time being,


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## Sonnie

Cool... looks like you might could just add on and have more subs.


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## rmk

Sonnie said:


> Cool... looks like you might could just add on and have more subs.


Yeah, they’re 48"X45"X11" so three makes a nice 12'X4' riser. My thirst for bass is quenched by two.


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## mechman

Very nice Sonnie! Very nice! I'm extremely jealous!

BTW, I'm getting a 106" Elite Silver Frame with CineGrey material. I liked the Silver Frame with the aluminum edges.


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## Sonnie

Thanks mech... the Elite screen is top notch no doubt. I have been very satisfied with it. It was also very simple to install. 

I know we will have a couple of very satisfied members when we give a couple of these screens away. :T


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## waldo563

Sonnie,

Beautiful job on the HT! I'm sure you'll get a lot of enjoyment out of it. Must be an amazing amount of bass output. One question though...do you ever get phone calls from the Cal-Tech seismologists trying to track down the origin of the strange seismic events they seem to triangulate to your location? :bigsmile:

Lester


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## Sonnie

Thanks Lester... lol... I have been expecting a visit from them. :T


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## BrianAbington

I love that riser. 4 Q18's!!! I would love to hear that.


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## Sonnie

Thanks and maybe Nebraska to Alabama won't be too terrible of a drive for you when I get ready to have the mini home meet. :T


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## BrianAbington

well if its after october it will be from chicago to alabama.


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## cinema mad

Your HT Looks very nice Sonnie very well thought out, It feels good when its all finnished & done right the way you wanted it, Only because you built it yourself of course :bigsmile:....

Cheers...


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## Sonnie

Thanks Jason... and you are right, not only is my mind feeling better, but my body is saying thank you for not putting me through all that work every day.


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## cinema mad

Ha Ha yes your spot on about the "old" body not liking it to much mate :bigsmile: ..

My young mined still wont except that my body is getting old, until the next DIY project comes along & push through the pain barrier again ... 

Cheers Sonnie....


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## GregBe

Wow. Very nice Sonnie. Your old theater was nice, but man oh man your new one is sweet!


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## Sonnie

Thanks Greg... believe it or not... it is about to get even sweeter!


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## Andysu

Sonnie said:


> Entrance into the room is on the side of the riser. Here you get a good look at the carpet we fell in love with since it has all the colors of the room, tan, brown and black. We got it from Town & Country Flooring in Troy, Alabama. Scott and Lana are a couple of crazy folks, just like us, but easy to deal with. We did not want to go back with a solid color, so we opted for this commercial carpet design with 1/4" firm padding. You can also see the lights installed to keep anyone from tripping over or off the riser when it is dark inside.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a shot with the lights on...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another shot of the carpet upholstering... these installers were really good at working all of this out. It literally 4 days to carpet the hallway and this room, with the small bit of tile on the step in the hallway and entrance way. They were very particular about it. Also in this pic is one of the ports to the Fi Riser Eighteens (project thread pending). That is truck bedliner painted on the end of the riser and the side of the riser step... very durable.


Wow I like it Sonnie. :T I like the carpeting very smart and tucked in nicely at the corners.

So where are the subs located on this (sub flooring sub) I couldn’t see a final rather than straight jump to another thread or are you keeping this top secret.:rofl2:

I take it you have golden rule! Shoes off! I couldn’t step into someone’s home without first taking off my shoes.


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## Sonnie

Oh no... they are definitely not hid...


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## Andysu

Sonnie said:


> Oh no... they are definitely not hid...


LOL I’m blind as bat







sorry I did notice them. Yes, yes now I see the enclosure is sealed except for the bottom part of the enclosure that mates the sub base raised floor, right gotcha.

That is might large sub how many litters is it including the rest of the flooring area?


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## Sonnie

It is right at 80 liters... if I measured right. :blink:


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## Andysu

Sonnie said:


> It is right at 80 liters... if I measured right. :blink:


80 litres onderf water if filled up to the top because I don’t know sod all about speaker building enclosures apart from most are square or cylindrical types, but I catch on.

I think of the top of my head my diy sub is less in litre volume size but then I only need to glance at yours. Is their an additional thread that goes into a bit more detail on the construction of the (diy subs)?

Cheers


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## Sonnie

My build threads are in my sig links... those are the only links I have. Very very time consuming to say the least, but rewarding too.


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## Andysu

Sonnie said:


> My build threads are in my sig links... those are the only links I have. Very very time consuming to say the least, but rewarding too.


So it is and I wouldn’t have even guessed that.

I like the look of it and the teeth rattling well I get that each time I travel on Bournemouth buses lots of low end bass vibrating all for a £3.00 all day ticket.:rofl2:


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Just curious, Sonnie, how does the "EQ all the subs as one" thing work as far as linear response (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) at the various seats?



> We are extremely pleased with everything, despite running into several hurdles along the way and it taking what seems like forever to get it all done.
> 
> Ultimately, it paid off with what we really wanted after we teased ourselves with the first HT room we built. I am not sure we could do anything any different or make any changes that could make us any happier with the end result. It sounds awesome and meets or exceeds our every expectation.


What's all this "we" business? Does Angie actually come out to this one with you? :whistling:

Regards,
Wayne


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## brucek

> how does the "EQ all the subs as one" thing work


I've wondered this myself.

Scenario: 

Sub #1 has an +8dB peak @50Hz at the listening position. 
Sub #2 has an +8dB peak @50Hz at the listening position. 
Total peak at listening position @50Hz is +16dB. 
Sonnie applies a single -16dB cut and all is well. 

Would it have been better to apply a more reasonable -8db cut @50 Hz to both subs?

brucek


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## SteveCallas

If sub 1 and sub 2 both have an 8db peak around 50hz, assuming no cancellations between them, the summed response would be an 8db peak around 50hz, not 16db.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too. All things being equal, the second sub merely increases gain, across the board.

Where's Sonnie? 

Regards,
Wayne


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## brucek

> If sub 1 and sub 2 both have an 8db peak around 50hz, assuming no cancellations between them, the summed response would be an 8db peak around 50hz, not 16db


So, at the listening position, if sub #1 has a peak of +8dB @50Hz and sub #2 has a dip of -8dB @50Hz, is there not a cancellation? 

Do acoustic signals not cancel and reinforce? 

Is signal reinforcement not how we enjoy extra headroom by adding a second sub, allowing the volume of each to be reduced?

brucek


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## Sonnie

Sorry guys... Angie and I were on a road trip yesterday to pick up yet another set of speakers. :drive:

Wayne... the "we" stuff is mostly pointing to the design and finish of the room, however, Angie has spent more time in this room since it was built than she did all total in the other room. Still yet... "we" might as well be me and my imaginary friend. :blink:

I have tried the equalization for all the seats and I do not care for it. I do not know if it is psychological because I can see the huge differences in the measured responses or if I really notice a difference, but I do not like it. 

I can equalize for the main listening position only... running three Audyssey measurements from that seat and from that seat it looks good. The other seats really do not look or sound any better or worse than they do when I use averaging and measure multiple seating locations... BUT at least I get one position, the main one, looking and sounding good.


As far as the eq'ing all subs as one... I do not know the technical aspects of it, but I do know it works regardless of the location of the subs. I also know that any time I have tried (and I have tried many times) to equalize two subs independently, that while the individual responses have looked very good, once they are combined, the overall response looks awful. It has never... and I emphatically repeat "NEVER!" worked when I have tried to equalize subs independently for an overall smooth combined response. Quite frankly, I do not recall anyone ever succeeding at doing so... and it does not make sense that it can be done either. 





brucek said:


> So, at the listening position, if sub #1 has a peak of +8dB @50Hz and sub #2 has a dip of -8dB @50Hz, is there not a cancellation?
> 
> Do acoustic signals not cancel and reinforce?
> 
> Is signal reinforcement not how we enjoy extra headroom by adding a second sub, allowing the volume of each to be reduced?
> 
> brucek


In this situation you are measuring the independent responses to see the peak and dip. I believe if you measured them together that your response would be flat at 50Hz and there would be any need of eq'ing. However, trying to equalize them independently, you will apply two unnecessary filters.


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## SteveCallas

brucek said:


> So, at the listening position, if sub #1 has a peak of +8dB @50Hz and sub #2 has a dip of -8dB @50Hz, is there not a cancellation?
> 
> Do acoustic signals not cancel and reinforce?
> 
> Is signal reinforcement not how we enjoy extra headroom by adding a second sub, allowing the volume of each to be reduced?


Yes, they cancel and reinforce each other. Regarding reinforcement, the most that can be gained by doubling displacement is 6db, and that's if everything is perfect. If both subs have roughly the same FR - even if that means a 35db peak around 50hz - the combined FR will stay the same (assuming no new room effects from the position of the second sub), it will just be increased 0-6db across the entire range. 

If one sub is +8db at 50hz and the other -8db at 50hz, then yes, assuming no new room effects from placement of the second sub, they would cancel each other out and you would be flat at 50hz. The magnitude of the "flat" FR at 50hz would still be 0-6db higher though.


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## brucek

> the combined FR will stay the same (assuming no new room effects from the position of the second sub), it will just be increased 0-6db across the entire range.


Not that this is my field, but is there a confusion here between absolute and relative levels.

As an example, if I introduce two +8dB filters at 50Hz into an equalizer, the result will be absolute +16dB at 50Hz. 

That's a doubling of the single +8dB level, which is relative +6dB higher (20 log 16/8).

brucek


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## SteveCallas

The EQ will boost the input signal by 8db twice - that's different than taking two subs with the same FR and playing them at the same time.


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## brucek

> that's different than taking two subs with the same FR and playing them at the same time.


Yeah, that's true. See below.



> If sub 1 and sub 2 both have an 8db peak around 50hz, assuming no cancellations between them, the summed response would be an 8db peak around 50hz, not 16db.


I got thinking about this, and I must say I was thinking about filters when I said +8dBSPL + 8dBSPL =16dBSPL. That's not correct - my bad. When we add sound pressure you must use the logarithmic calculation. The total sound pressure level is not the algebraic sum of sound pressure levels. It would be as follows:

If I have two signals in a room playing at +75 dBSPL, then the resultant SPL level is +81.02 dBSPL (pressure result is double = +6.02dB higher). 
Math is 20 log [10^(SPL1/20) + 10^(SPL2/20)].

And, if I have two signal peaks @50Hz in a room of +8 dBSPL, then the resultant peaks SPL level is +14.02 dBSPL (result is double = +6.02dB higher). 
Math is the same 20 log [10^(SPL1/20) + 10^(SPL2/20)].

So both increase by 6dB.

brucek


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Sonnie said:


> Sorry guys... Angie and I were on a road trip yesterday to pick up yet another set of speakers. :drive:


What?? More speakers?? Well, if I recall - from where you are, it’s a “road trip” to anywhere! :laugh:




> As far as the eq'ing all subs as one... I do not know the technical aspects of it, but I do know it works regardless of the location of the subs. I also know that any time I have tried (and I have tried many times) to equalize two subs independently, that while the individual responses have looked very good, once they are combined, the overall response looks awful. It has never... and I emphatically repeat "NEVER!" worked when I have tried to equalize subs independently for an overall smooth combined response. Quite frankly, I do not recall anyone ever succeeding at doing so... and it does not make sense that it can be done either.


 Understood, you EQ’d all the subs as one, presumably from the sweet spot. What I’m trying to find out is, does that technique also gets decent response at the other seats as well?

Regards,
Wayne


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## rcarlton

Sonnie,
Just read this thread. Sweet looking HT. Wow.

If I ever get to Alabama I need to stop by.


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## brucek

> Sweet looking HT. Wow.


Yeah, I'm still shaking my head in awe about those F1 Audio 18 towers with the port tuning in the stage..... I would have liked to see more detail in the "Rise of the Eighteens" thread. It seemed to go from concept to finished in a few posts without detail pics...... :foottap:

brucek


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

brucek said:


> how does the "EQ all the subs as one" thing work
> 
> 
> 
> I've wondered this myself.
> 
> Scenario:
> 
> Sub #1 has an +8dB peak @50Hz at the listening position.
> Sub #2 has an +8dB peak @50Hz at the listening position.
> Total peak at listening position @50Hz is +16dB.
> Sonnie applies a single -16dB cut and all is well.
> 
> Would it have been better to apply a more reasonable -8db cut @50 Hz to both subs?
Click to expand...




brucek said:


> And, if I have two signal peaks @50Hz in a room of +8 dBSPL, then the resultant peaks SPL level is +14.02 dBSPL (result is double = +6.02dB higher).
> Math is the same 20 log [10^(SPL1/20) + 10^(SPL2/20)].


Nothing like a "real live" experiment; maybe this will help clear things up. My DIY sub has two drivers, each powered by an independent amplifier channel. So, I can run both drivers together, or only one at a time. Does this meet the “all things being equal” requirement?  Ideal to the discussion, I have a honkin’ peak at ~42 Hz.

Here’s a graph I took today. The blue trace is both drivers running (no EQ). The red trace is one driver only. As you can see, the only thing that changes running both is overall gain. I suppose you could say the peak is “worse,” but its relation to the rest of the curve is the same.







​

Regards,
Wayne


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## brucek

Guess you're right - I'm not thinkin' today...........

Sorry for the hi-jack Sonnie...


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

So - how 'bout it, Sonnie?



Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> As far as the eq'ing all subs as one... I do not know the technical aspects of it, but I do know it works regardless of the location of the subs. I also know that any time I have tried (and I have tried many times) to equalize two subs independently, that while the individual responses have looked very good, once they are combined, the overall response looks awful. It has never... and I emphatically repeat "NEVER!" worked when I have tried to equalize subs independently for an overall smooth combined response. Quite frankly, I do not recall anyone ever succeeding at doing so... and it does not make sense that it can be done either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Understood, you EQ’d all the subs as one, presumably from the sweet spot. What I’m trying to find out is, does that technique also gets decent response at the other seats as well?
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne
Click to expand...


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## Sonnie

brucek said:


> Yeah, I'm still shaking my head in awe about those F1 Audio 18 towers with the port tuning in the stage..... I would have liked to see more detail in the "Rise of the Eighteens" thread. It seemed to go from concept to finished in a few posts without detail pics...... :foottap:
> 
> brucek


Well... sorry about that. You know how it can be sometimes when you have fifty-eleven things going on at one time. I did include pics of most of the framing though. I wish I had remembered to take more. :huh:



Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Understood, you EQ’d all the subs as one, presumably from the sweet spot. What I’m trying to find out is, does that technique also gets decent response at the other seats as well?
> 
> 
> 
> So - how 'bout it, Sonnie?
Click to expand...

I know I answered this somewhere, just cannot figure out where, musta been in another thread. Anyway... the response from others seats is no better and no worse when equalizing from the main listening position than it is when equalizing from all positions. The only difference being that when you equalize from the main listening position, at least that one position is pretty much spot on... however, when you equalize from all positions, none are spot on. This may not work in every situation, but something tells me that it will probably be the case in most situations and it is what I would be recommending if I were writing the manufacturer manuals. They can say and write what they want, the the proof is in the measurements. Maybe sometime when I have extra hours available I will redo the entire comparison and save all the measurements. I probably have them saved, but I have so many, I am not sure I can decipher what is what.


Ahhh... and yes... more speakers. I swapped out my ML Spires for ML Prodigy's... I like the sound of the old style ML's better than I do the new style.


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## Sonnie

New pics...


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## tonyvdb

Sonnie, You never cease to amaze me. That is just the nicest theater setup I have seen:T 
Now if only I had the money to get mine to look even half that good. My wife wants me to do something with it but it all takes so much cash to get it there.


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## Sonnie

Thanks Tony!

You know it's only money... :spend: :spend: :spend:


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## BrianAbington

are all those power indicators alittle distracting up front?


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## Sonnie

I don't even notice them. My eyes are always on the screen.

No one else has complained either, not that they would. :R


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Sonnie said:


> Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Understood, you EQ’d all the subs as one, presumably from the sweet spot. What I’m trying to find out is, does that technique also gets decent response at the other seats as well?
> 
> 
> 
> I know I answered this somewhere, just cannot figure out where, musta been in another thread. Anyway... the response from others seats is no better and no worse when equalizing from the main listening position than it is when equalizing from all positions. The only difference being that when you equalize from the main listening position, at least that one position is pretty much spot on...
Click to expand...

So if I understand correctly, you’ve found that equalizing multiple subs as one from the sweet spot ends up being the same as equalizing a single sub from the sweet spot: You get the best response at the sweet spot but not necessarily at the other seats. I’d say that supports your “Just equalize them all as one” theory. :T

Another question, if you don’t mind: Some say that adding additional subs “evens out” response. Others say adding additional subs degrades response. Don’t recall if they meant at the sweet spot or for all the other seats as well, but which have you found to be the case?

Regards,
Wayne


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## Sonnie

It has been my experience in the two rooms I have built that having more subs (front and rear) has been beneficial for all listening positions. In the previous room I tried front and sides (multiple locations on the sides with multiple phase alignments)... it was not until I placed the subs front and back that I got the best response for any listening position. The response was almost good enough for no equalization, but I did use Audyssey MultEQ. I actually have a thread Sub locations that shows a few of those test placements and measurements. There was also some crossover adjustments that had to be made with the rear. 

In the new room, turning off either the back or front subs causes major issues. Having all four subs playing is not perfect by any means, but it is much better than having just front or just back. The back row is a little bit, not much, but a little bit hotter than the front row, with the front row being closer to flat. I tried running my Martin Logan Prodigy's full range (a pair of 10" subs in each speaker), but it ill effected the low end, so crossing them over at 80Hz seems to be best for the room response. However, it would be interesting to see what a pair of subs on each side about 1/3 and 1/2 located would do to the response.


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## tonyvdb

Sonnie said:


> However, it would be interesting to see what a pair of subs on each side about 1/3 and 1/2 located would do to the response.


Do I see another pair of subs in your future Sonnie? :heehee:


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## Sonnie

Oh no... but I would not mind borrowing a pair of PB13's. :bigsmile:


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## wes

Sonnie,

Absolutely amazing very nice set-up. I come to LA often may be I will stop by one of these days.

I am in the process of finishing my music room which serves once in a while as a movie room.

I will post in in a couple of weeks. I wish I could put 4 subs in my room but it might be a bit much. 

Again congratulation :yes:


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## Sonnie

Thanks wes... and indeed if you ever are over this way... do give me a shout and stop on by.


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## recruit

WOW :hail: that is one serious Home Cinema Sonnie !!

I am looking at getting the new Panasonic PT AE4000 PJ once it is availible, have been without one for approx a year and seriously miss it...


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## Sonnie

Thanks John...

We have really enjoyed the 3000 and I am sure the 4000 will be even better.


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## BrianAbington

I was pretty dead set on def tech speakers for my eventual theater...however, while in denver this week my dad and I went to a BB with a magnolia store and I got to listen to the def tech 7006's then a pair of martin logan source's. what a difference, the martins are probably the best sounding speakers in that price range that I have heard and I have never had my mind changed in a split second like that! WOW!


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## JimP

Sonnie said:


> It has been my experience in the two rooms I have built that having more subs (front and rear) has been beneficial for all listening positions. In the previous room I tried front and sides (multiple locations on the sides with multiple phase alignments)... it was not until I placed the subs front and back that I got the best response for any listening position. The response was almost good enough for no equalization, but I did use Audyssey MultEQ. I actually have a thread Sub locations that shows a few of those test placements and measurements. There was also some crossover adjustments that had to be made with the rear.
> 
> In the new room, turning off either the back or front subs causes major issues. Having all four subs playing is not perfect by any means, but it is much better than having just front or just back. The back row is a little bit, not much, but a little bit hotter than the front row, with the front row being closer to flat. I tried running my Martin Logan Prodigy's full range (a pair of 10" subs in each speaker), but it ill effected the low end, so crossing them over at 80Hz seems to be best for the room response. However, it would be interesting to see what a pair of subs on each side about 1/3 and 1/2 located would do to the response.


Hi Sonnie,
Look forward to someday seeing your new home theater. Being catless and all. :bigsmile:

As for subwoofer placement, do you get the impression that what it would take would be to build a space about twice the size and keep your seating the same? That way, fewer of the seats would be at room extremes? Just an early Saturday morning thought.:dumbcrazy:


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## Sonnie

Yeah... I know you will appreciate the catless atmosphere.

I am not sure on the size issue... it is hard to say. At this point I do not consider the "little bit" heavy bass on the back row to be that extreme, although a few more feet between the rear seating and the rear wall might make sense that it would help eliminate that heaviness. Funny thing is... some folks like it... they sit on the back row on purpose... especially the younger kids.


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## Sonnie

SQCherokee said:


> I was pretty dead set on def tech speakers for my eventual theater...however, while in denver this week my dad and I went to a BB with a magnolia store and I got to listen to the def tech 7006's then a pair of martin logan source's. what a difference, the martins are probably the best sounding speakers in that price range that I have heard and I have never had my mind changed in a split second like that! WOW!


Hi Binger... I have never hear the Source, but have heard good things about them, despite them being the lower end of their line. No doubt there are drastic differences between ML's and other speakers. Most people seem to like the differences once they have heard it.


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## BrianAbington

real names brian, binger is just a nick name I've had since highschool, its just what I use to make me identifiable on all the web forums yet keeps me somewhat anonymous when I feel the need to be.

The sales guy was using a denon blu ray player and their new reciver that sells for just shy of $500. the demo disc was something from a godsmack concert that has a dualing drum solo thing. It is very well recorded and the martins just presented so much more of the resonance and tone of the drum bodies. The cymbals sounded much clearer as well. He had a deftech 10" sub playing as well and it sounded like it was crossed at about 120ish...it blended very well with the speakers. ML's site says the x/0 is at 470hz so I don't know how low the woofer plays, but its only a single 8" so its not gona shake the house by any means.


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## Jester

That's a very impressive HT. Somehow I get the distinct feeling that I'm over my head. I've got a lot to learn! Oh well, I've got the time.


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## Sonnie

Thanks Jester... if you have the time... we definitely have an excellent staff and great members to help you through it all.

Welcome to the Shack! :T


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## seattle_ice

All of it looks very nice!

Does having the light color on the walls on either side of the screen show up much during a movie? I saw that you have the fabric on the ceiling, but the walls are light.


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## Sonnie

Thanks Darryn... and no, the light walls are not an issue at all.


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## recruit

Sonnie said:


> Thanks John...
> 
> We have really enjoyed the 3000 and I am sure the 4000 will be even better.


Hi Sonnie,

I was going to go for the new 4000 but got a really good deal on a brand new 3000 + free bulb so have gone and bought it, pick it up next Wednesday and cannot wait :bigsmile:


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## Sonnie

Congratulations! I know we have a 3000 thread somewhere in the Home Theater Projectors forum, be sure to let us know your thoughts when you get it in and have a chance to do so.


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## recruit

Will do


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## plumbcrazy

i bet them 18s rock


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## Sonnie

Yeah... they are plumb crazy! :bigsmile:


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## fauzigarib

Sonnie,

Great great great HT setup... I am truly in awe... Thanks to you, I just don't feel like hanging out in my HT anymore!

A couple quick questions:
- I noticed the Emotiva Monoblocks you have on the sides. I'm assuming they're for your main L/R's? Is that for two channel music? Is that kind of a waste in your HT, considering most of your sound comes from the center?

- How much higher is the rear-most riser from the front ground level? I'm asking to know if the rear ML's meet up at ear level or not.

- Discounting the subs, is this 5 channel? or 7?

- It looks like you have a pretty high ceiling (vaulted)? Any treatments up there?

Once again, great setup man...

-Fauzi


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## Sonnie

Thanks fauzi... I appreciate the kind words.

Yes those are the XPA-1 monoblocks from Emotiva. These are not a waste at all. Dialog comes from the center, but nearly every movie I watch has much more than just dialog. The mains are constantly busy. There are also concerts, not just on disc, but also on satellite. The Martin Logan Prodigy mains are no easy speaker to drive either. They need lots of power.

The rear riser is 12" off the floor, but that wouldn't really matter using such a tall panel as with the Ascents. They cover a large area. They could be on the floor or even higher up and the panel would still cover ear height, however... surrounds do not have to be ear height anyway. They are meant more for ambiance, not direct sound.

This is a 5 channel setup. I have never seen the need for 7 channel.

The ceilings are 8½' tall... blown sheetrock mud. No treatments other than a thin panel of black velvet across the top front above the screen to absorb the light reflection off of the screen.


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## Z71SierraSLT

I'm a newbie on here and just saw all of the pictures of your theater...very nice Sonnie!


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## Sonnie

Thank you very much... we have really enjoyed it.


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## yamahaSHO

Very nice theater!


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## Sonnie

Thank you Jason... about to go use it now... :T


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## qiong

I love every detail of this home theater. Very professional looking. You did a great job man!


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## Sonnie

Thank you!

There is something I would like to change about it, which is painting the walls with some sort of texture. We worked and worked on those walls with sheetrock mud (three different guys worked on it) and it seems there is no perfection to it, not with the way the lights reflect on the walls. Texture seems to be the only hope.


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## sm31

Amazing!! 

I showed my wife pictures of your home theatre, especially those beautiful subs. Her response: "There's no room to snuggle with those seats...".


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## Sonnie

lol... 

Well... I did not make it to snuggle... I made it to watch a movie... and I am not much on the snuggling type movies. :huh:

We snuggle next to the fire. :bigsmile:


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## sm31

My wife approves of your response.


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## B Feelgood

Very nice!


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## BD55

My what thunderous bass you have! Absolutely amazing build. I can only imagine being in there watching anything and just being blown away by the sound. Amazing job!


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## phillihp23

Very impressive build. Nice job. 

I'm a newbie to all this. Planning to put together a home theater. Not as detailed and intensive as yours though......$$$$$. Looking to get started on it in the next week or so.

Questions:

Issues:

1: what effect do vaulted ceilings ( my rooom has ) have on picture quality, light throw from the screen reflecting? Paint Ceiling Black?? Velvet around screen or paint front wall black ?

2: I have windows in the room I am going to turn into a HT, whats the best way to block them out??
I would like it to be removeable what ever the fix is. I was thinking some sort of styrofoam block with a felt covering??? Any ideas??

3: Room paint and light reflection?? I read a few articles and they insist on dark flat neutral colors. You did a great job with yours, making it usable and liveable to be in when not viewing film. (not morbid)

Room info:
The room is 15' long, 15' wide and 8' tall walls - vaulted ceilings
Wood floors, light colored walls (a light yellow/green/white called pampis grass)
When house was built had the room pre-wired for a projector on ceiling and 7.1 sound

Limited Budget 1st Build (theres always future builds :whistling $3000 approx.

Denon AVR1912 875w (need to purchase) cost $550
Elite EzFrame Fixed Frame Screen Cinegrey 106" cost $400 or 126" $500(need to purchase)
Epson Powerlite 3010 (need to purchase) cost $1600
Projector mount (need to purchase) cost $300-500
Definitive Technology speakers (have)
Blue ray Player (have)
Cable Box (have)


onder:
Any input advice for room or needed equipment would be great.











Anyone who has advice greatly appreciated.


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## Sonnie

Thanks and welcome to HTS!

You will be better off starting a New Thread for the best attention to your questions and concerns. :T


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## dabusabus1

Nice Setup


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## GrailsEdge

Pretty sweet


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## NBPk402

I love your setup.. Excellent attention to detail. Only question is the subs being right behind you... Do you need to wear hearing protection?


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## Sonnie

Thanks guys... and nope... no hearing protection. I am about deaf from it being so loud, so I keep having to turn it up. :gulp:


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## Savjac

Absolutely wonderful Sonnie, very very well done. I can see where this room will bring you many smiles and maybe even some drooling from those that visit. Leave plenty of paper towels lying about.

A dozen Thumbs Up.


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## Sonnie

Thanks Jack... we have thoroughly enjoyed it. My wife says I may as well move into the room I am in it so much.


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## morca

Wauw ,what a nice room,and 4 Martin Logan,s 
Awesome!!


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## ALMFamily

It really is - and he promised to take some photos for the newsletter.....:foottap:


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## Sonnie

Thanks guys... and I did take new photos. I need to update this thread, but check out my site:

www.cedarcreekcinema.ws


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## JBrax

That really is a beautiful room Sonnie. I'd love to hear yours and Aktos purple's in person. Easily my two favorite theaters thus far.


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## Sonnie

Thanks Jeff... I have often wondered how it compares to other rooms and if what I hear is really as good as I think it is. I suspect the critical folks would pick it apart.


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## JBrax

I highly doubt there would be much picking but I suppose that is just the nature of some people.


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## JQueen

Awesome job on the room Sonnie B-E-A-utiful.. I will now have to top your room when I begin mine  jk


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## ALMFamily

JBrax said:


> I highly doubt there would be much picking but I suppose that is just the nature of some people.


+1 - I know that I would love to be able to experience the room. And, haters are going to hate. But, as long as YOU enjoy it, that is what counts.


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## JBrax

^^^ True dat!


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## jose matos

nice::roject


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## kevin360

Wow, that room is stunning, awesome, gorgeous... 
To say that it appears very well planned and executed would be a massive understatement, but what else can I say?
You have some _serious_ bass engines there. :flex:
All of that and planars too - really cool! :T


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## Sonnie

Thanks Kevin... and everyone else that I have not thanked.

You can check out the link in my sig for the latest pics. It seems to be ever changing.

I suspect there will be more changes in the near future. I have a LOT of plans if I can ever get to them.


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## LaserDisk

> so we looked around and found what we used at Lowe's. The cost was very reasonable and it adds a nice touch to the room, along with the baseboard.


Very very nice room Sonnie you should be happy with the results of the hard work. I'm sure you are enjoying it. We have similar tastes, Pink Floyd, oppo, Onkyo. I also used a similar crown molding from Lowes. The installation presented a few challenges, but I did it! The hardest part was the 3 coats of Lowes Brilliant Metals gold I put on my molding, by hand.


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## Sonnie

Thanks Sandy... there have been a few changes with the acoustics, and I need to get some new pics up.

I was quite pleased how the crown molding turned out... and how theaterish it looks. I bet that gold on yours looks good.


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## LaserDisk

Sonnie, check out the Blue Room


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## Greenster

Love the blue room panels. 

I love the molding you picked. It is perfect for a theater room. Now I want to change mine.


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## ALMFamily

Sonnie said:


> Thanks Sandy... there have been a few changes with the acoustics, and I need to get some new pics up.
> 
> I was quite pleased how the crown molding turned out... and how theaterish it looks. I bet that gold on yours looks good.


I should have taken some theater pictures while I was there... Ah well, next time!


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## Magical

Who needs a heater when you have amps like those !!!!:sarcastic:


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## Sonnie

Ehh... I have cut them back a bit since. I need to get new pics up... quite a few changes.


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## ALMFamily

Sonnie said:


> Ehh... I have cut them back a bit since. I need to get new pics up... quite a few changes.


Maybe we can try to get a few while we are all here in a couple weeks - it is about time Cedar Creek Cinema was featured in the newsletter!


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## Sonnie

Good idea!


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## wes

Very nice room


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