# Seriously considering room treatments



## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

I just started educating myself about the benefits from room treatments. So my first reaction to get impulsive and order some panels and throw them up.

I found these guys ATS acoustics I sent them this simple diagram and pictures. They seem to make a nice product and it is priced right. I’m sure I could make them myself but I bet I would barely save a 1/3 over their prices. So provided they come highly rate I most likely will get them from ATS.

As you can see from the pictures there is not much I can do as far as moving components or furniture around. The diagram has the suggested room treatments. I’m also thinking he used no science in determining his suggested treatments. It appears to me that he looked at my layout and simply suggested putting panels where ever I could or most likely wouldn’t object. I sent him a MP3 of a mic-ed frequency sweep also.

So my question is being that the sub bass seems to be my biggest problem do you think their recommendations are a good start and money well spent?



I probably need to figure out how to use REM


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

also this room is a wood framed structure except the wall behind the system that is the original masonary covered with drywall.


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

Also this room is a wood framed structure except the wall behind the system that is the original masonry covered with drywall.

After thought I broke all the rules in the Bryan's NO NO thread. I don't have any choice. This was our starter house now we are slaves to it.

I built the entertainment center (cabinet) around the TV and on each side of the TV there is a 7 cu ft sub box with a 15in down firing woofer sitting on cones with about 2 inches of air flow underneath it and these are inside the cabinet.

We sit on the back wall, the room is way to small. The room is elevated over a crawl space. So at the very least the low bass energy can pass through the outer walls, floor and ceiling.

Before I order anything I hope to get some advice on what treatments this room will likely need. For instance on the back wall ATS acoustics has suggested a 4 ft x 2ft x4in panel in the right corner and 2 ft x 3ft x4in panels above the seating area on each side of the window, mounted diagonally at the ceiling.

First off those panels will have to be 18 inches 24 will not fit because of the window blinds unless it was mounted at a greater angle to the wall. Does it need to be mounted at 45 degrees? I could make them longer too. My guess is he didn’t want to crowd my back center speaker but they could run mort words the outer walls.

In the right corner he suggested only a 4 ft high panel I suspect because of the alarm motion detector. I can move that motion detector more to the side wall and remount it next to the panel in order to get 7 ft of panel in the corner.

If I do this I would rather put more panels than pay for smaller ones that don’t do the job.

Can I over do it?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

I don't know what the recommendations are so I really can't say. If he's just putting things where they'll fit and sell you the most, likely not. 

Also, if deep bass is your biggest problem, then the ATS panels likely aren't what you really need. 

Bryan


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

bpape said:


> I don't know what the recommendations are so I really can't say. If he's just putting things where they'll fit and sell you the most, likely not.
> 
> Also, if deep bass is your biggest problem, then the ATS panels likely aren't what you really need.
> 
> Bryan


click the PDF file titled room layout and it shows the recommendations.

My thinking is that it's a good start. I'm aslo learning about BFD controlled by REW combinding the two I should have a great start.


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

I just ordered the BFD and necessary hardware. I should get some readings from REW and post the results prior to adding treatments


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Are you sure you want it oriented that way? Looks like if you rotated the seating arrangement 90 degrees clockwise you could improve your imaging.

Dan


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

I can’t move it. All the equipment is on the other side of that wall the connections run through the wall. I have dedicated A/C there too.

That’s why I think room treatment will be a good thing.


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

I talked to ATS acoustics today. Like I thought the primary inclination was to sell me panels that will fit into my space and to keep the cost down he choose standard sizes.

After talking with him he agreed that both corners need floor to ceiling panels. However using standard sizes will be 10.5 inches short. Is that a concern?

There site has a calculator and after punching in the numbers it says I need 42 sq ft of panels. 
42 sq.ft.	5 panels This is the reverb time
Square Feet Count 125Hz 250Hz 500Hz 1000Hz 2000Hz 4000Hz 
__0 sq.ft. 0 panels 0.34__0.96__1.27__0.80___0.50___0.44 
42 sq.ft. 5 panels _0.31_ 0.58__ 0.63_ 0.50 ___0.37__ 0.33 W


What he suggested was 8ft short of that. By adding the 3ft to the height of the right back corner and a foot to the left rear wall panel mounted diagonally at the ceiling I get exactly to 42sq ft. 

I can get all these 4 inch thick open back panels with mounting hardware for something like $460. Seems like a good deal and I can return standard sizes.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

I'd say something is wrong with the calculator. There's no way that your room is around .35 with no treatment. Add to that, that with the treatment, it's still around .35 so the treatment is doing nothing in the 125Hz down range.

Bryan


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks Bryan,

These are just frames to enclose the mineral wool what they use is Roxul Rockboard 60, Mineral Wool Board

http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--Roxul-Rockboard-60-Case-of-6--RB60.html

So the numbers may not make since, makes me wonder how they arrived at the figures.

It seems to me there are 2 ways people go about installing room treatments. One would be to design a room from the ground up and do the math to get it right or there are people like me that have a imperfect room that they are stuck with and are interested in a bunch of band aids. In terms of getting it perfect I guess it's not going to happen but if I can invest $500 in panels that look good and make the room sound better, even my wife thinks its better it will be worth it. I just don’t want to do more harm than good or not get good results


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

I would agree completely that it's better to wisely spend $500 on treatments than either doing nothing or just getting as many panels as possible because that's what fits in the budget and putting them wherever they fit. That more likely than not will not solve the issues while still spending the money and could indeed, as you say, do more harm than good.

What needs to be done is to identify what the problems are, what the restrictions are in terms of placement, what you're trying to achieve (not going to fix everything right away so we prioritize) and then do the most of that you can within your budget.

You already know that the people you're dealing with aren't interested in the best solution (or don't have the experience and knowledge to KNOW what the proper solution is) - only selling you the most product. The 'calculator' doesn't work and even if it did, doesn't tell you where you need what type of panels in order to address what things.

To do the best you can, most likely, you'll want to concentrate on broadband bass control and early side wall reflections. Where in the room the broadband goes will depend on which problems you're trying to solve. Common places for broadband treatment:

- Center of wall behind seating
- Front corners of the room straddling the corners
- Over your head

Each helps with decay times but addresses completely different things depending on the layout and what you can and can't do (as well as what needs to be done). For instance, if you have a 12' ceiling, over your head with broadband isn't likely needed. 

Bryan


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks a lot Bryan,

The treatments that have been suggested are 7 ft x 2 ft x 4 inches in both front and back corners on the right side. The left side there is on front corner there is a walk though opening and in the back the heavy room darkening curtains go all the way into the corner.

Two panels mounted diagonally at the ceiling (60% on the ceiling and 40% on the wall) 3 ft x 2 ft x 4 in on the right and 4 ft x 2 ft x 4 in on the left. Each mounted about 2 ft off of center of viewing area. Directly above dead center of viewing area is the back rear speaker and it can not be moved.

As it is these are the only locations available. Unless I make custom panels or rearrange the room.

On a side note my ceilings are 7 ft 10 ½ inches and I could put panels anywhere on it.


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks for your input Bryan. You have been a saint. Poor Wayne and the rest of the boys at the BFD thread I've really been making those guys pull their hair out.

I have ordered a BFD and will try to integrate it, if I don’t get the hum. I have been testing the 0 to 300 Hz response of my room using a RS SPL meter. Before finding this site I set my bass management to crossover at 80 HZ and my main speakers to large, as they are quite large and should go down to 22 Hz. 

Over at the BFD thread I have posted quite a few screen shots showing all the different bass setting I have tried. I found that if I raise the crossover point to 180-250 HZ the line becomes much more flat.. 

However what by far sounds the best is set the speakers to small and crossover at 80 Hz. That is the screenshot below. What I’m seeing is the low bass in the subs range 20-80 Hz is manageable it’s what my main speakers do after that has me scratching my head.

I have ordered a ECM8000 and will check the complete range and will post the results. What I’m thinking is it’s my room and how it reacts to my main speakers that I need to look at. Those dips must be cancelations. I am thinking that room treatments are my best option. What do you think?

One thing I would rather have it sound good that make adjustments to flatten the line but sounds worse.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

xover should be set somewhere around 80Hz and mains set to small as you found out.

Bryan


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

For several reasons I decided to DIY my treatments. The wife objected to all the material options on the 3 different vendors I looked at. Plus we had 3+ yards of the same fabric our drapes were made with for the corner traps.
I’m going with the Owens Corning 703 the frame will be made out of 1/2 inch mdf. I’m going to cut the sides at 45 deg so the face will be 25 inches wide with 6 inches of 703 the back will be 14 inches open. It will look something like a GIK tritrap with a flat back.

I wanted to use a vinyl fabric for the back and bottom. It will not breathe. I thought it would be great for cleaning and for traps I build to fit into my window the vinyl would be great in the winter as the windows condensate moisture from time to time. I’m thinking the window traps for sure but the corner traps may want a more breathable fabric for the backs. I was told by one vendor it really doesn’t make much difference what material you use with the exception of burlap unless you cover with a sub-fabric. 

Thanks for your help Bryan please let me know what you think about using the vinyl for the backs.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

I've not heard of anyone doing that but for the back of the panel, I guess it would be OK.


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## kudo11 (Sep 30, 2010)

ok, not bad for a start. i think the panels will make a good bit of difference but be careful with which panels you choose. i bought some cheap panels about 2 yrs ago and they were an eye soar and did not help one bit. the brand youre talking about i hear good things about.


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

kudo11 said:


> the brand youre talking about i hear good things about.


If you are referring to the Owens Corning 703 they seemed to be the most widely recommended. I didn’t like the custom options at the different vendors. One thing about the 703 it can be cut on a table saw IF you use a very good blade. This will allow me to make the custom corner units. 

Having the drapery fabric and being able to search through hundreds of fabric to get the right color to tie it all together was the only way I could do this without having a mutiny on my hands. My wife thinks its fine the way the room is now.


Doing it myself and having some of the fabric will allow me to create panels using 13 2ft x 4ft x 4in panels with very little waste by using pieces for the 2nd and 3rd layers and my total cost will be under $300.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Just be very careful with drapery material for reflection panels. A lot of it is a very tight weave and made of materials that are not absorbent. Also, make sure to remove any backer from it. The last thing you want is a material that reflects sound used for a reflection panel that should absorb sound.

Bryan


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

It is a tightly spun and feels like it’s a cotton fabric blend like a table cloth but I can blow air through it with some resistance. I would not think of it as reflective. The vinyl I plan to use for the backs would be terrible for the front fabric but in the 2 applications I’m going to use it may work great. It may work as a diaphragm. The way the corners are made similar to the tritrap all the bass energy in the corner will pass through the 6 inches of insulation before hitting the less reflective side (back) of the vinyl. With the in the window traps the sound will pass through the 4 inches before hitting the vinyl. It’s either that or the glass. So the vinyl should help to diffuse the bass by softly reflecting back through the insulation.

Or I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about. :scratch:


edit; You know I may test the room by carefully standing the insulation boards up it the corners and take a reading with REW prior to building the panels to see if I hit the same benchmark.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

The vinyl is likely a non-issue on the back. Bass will pass through it like it's not even there. 

If the fabric is cotton, then any reflective property from the tight weave would likely be absorbed by the fact that it's a cotton fabric rather than a synthetic one. You should be fine. I just also don't want it to act like a membrane in any way.


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