# Subwoofer upgrade, looking for input



## Ikarius (Nov 22, 2011)

I've recently built a 5.1 system; MartinLogan LX-16 L/R, EM-C2 Center, and FX surrounds. I've got an old sealed 8" sub which does a good job on music, but on heavy-duty movie content, it bottoms out and distorts badly. The room is fairly small and doesn't need a huge sub to fill it more than sufficiently. I've listened to an Earthquake mini-me P8 (seriously unimpressed), and the MartinLogan Dynamo 700 and 1000. Between the two ML subs, the 700 seemed to manage music pretty well, and didn't fall over when movie content was thrown at it (though when complex stuff got thrown at it, it seemed like it was trying to do too much at one time and the detail became a bit muddier). The 1000 was able to produce more sound, but the detail level didn't get audibly better to me.

I'm familiar with the internet-direct brands, but have a really hard time plunking down money for something I haven't heard in person. 

I'm definitely more concerned that a sub work well for music than be perfect for movies, so I'm fairly convinced that I'd like to stick with a sealed design.

Last note; my room is far from perfect and I've got no place reasonable to stick a sub other than behind the TV/AV credenza, in the corner. It's what I've got to work with.

Suggestions, thoughts?

Cheers
Ikarius


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

> Suggestions, thoughts?


Room dimensions and price range/cap would be handy to know. 

That said, I'll suggest the following:
- SVS SB12-NSD
- Rythmik F12 or F15
- Epik Legend


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## Ikarius (Nov 22, 2011)

Room dimensions are approx. 19' x 14.5'. I appreciate all those suggestions have a lot of proponents on the various audio boards, but they're all internet-direct, and I have a really hard time plunking down my cash without having heard them in person. I'm not sure what to do with that, as there's clearly a pretty big component value gap between the ID brands and the retail-available brands. I have a sneaking suspicion that a MartinLogan Depth would make my ears very happy, but haven't found a place to listen to one, and the pricing is well above what I'd want to spend (I'd really like to be under $900 including tax and shipping).


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Your fear of plunking down money for a ID sub needs to pass. It's really the way to go and I was in your shoes not so long ago. Look towards SVS and HSU. I opted for SVS myself but either way and you will be more than satisfied.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

For under $900 both have outstanding offerings. SVS pb12-nsd can be had for $749 and that includes shipped to your door as well as outstanding customer service.


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

I musts concur with the recommendations already given; you and I seem to be in a similar boat. I also use a sealed 10" sub for music, and it does a great job in that ~30Hz to 60Hz range where it is needed. It does not do well with LFE, so I added a SVS for movies. 

I'm using Dynaudio mains with a Kef PSW2500 for music; these are combined with the SVS for surround. I get clean, tight (but not awfully deep) bass for music from the Kef, and the SVS adds depth and "omph" for movies. An added advantage is that the two subs work together to cancel room modes and improves bass quality. I CAN add the SVS into the signal for music, but I usually run my SSP in "Direct mode" which only includes the Dynaudio/Kef combo.

Anyway, SVS, Rythmik, Epic and HSU are all _great_ subs that can provide the added dimension of true deep bass.


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## Ikarius (Nov 22, 2011)

Understood. Looking at the options, I think the SVS SB12-NSD is my first instinct amongst them. Can you comment at all on my impression that the MartinLogan Dynamo 700/1000 got a bit muddy when presented with a "busy" load? (transformers, war of the worlds, explosions, felt to me like the subs didn't remain as crisp as I'd like). Have you heard that? Is there something to look for in particular that you'd expect a type of Sub to do better than others at that?


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

The bass content in those movies simply over-loads my Kef; your Martin Logan is probably doing the same. There's LFE content in some movies below ~20Hz that a single 10" just can not reproduce. My SVS 16-46 PCI (discontinued) handles it well...to a point. It did "bottom-out" on some scenes in _War of the Worlds_ and _Tron_ when I had the gain/crossover a bit too high. Since I got everything "dialed-in" I have not had a problem with it being over loaded. 

FWIW-my room isn't huge; I'm sure that I'd need a bigger sub if it was, and I would not hesitate to buy a "larger" SVS.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Since your main concern is music the sb12-nsd would work great. It would also perform wonderfully with movies though it wouldn't dig quite as deep as the ported version. Considering your stated priorities the sealed version might be the way to go. SVS also has a 1 year trade up policy that is nice if you consider upgrading for some reason. Give them a call and get a taste of their outstanding customer service. It's quite honestly the best I've ever dealt with.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Not to derail the conversation from SVS - which makes great subs - the HSU subs come with port plugs... So you can have a boomy double -open -ports option to a more musical sealed port(s)... To one port open, one port closed.

It essentially allows you to tailor the sub to your needs...


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## Ikarius (Nov 22, 2011)

Yeah, I've looked at the HSU VTF models, and I just... have a hard time buying into it. I think you need to engineer a Sub from start to finish to make it "right", and I have a hard time believing simply stuffing a port plug into a port will get you the same results as a subwoofer which was designed as sealed from start to finish. If there's folks out there who understand the engineering who could speak to that, I'm more than willing to listen, but my gut says it's not going to be the same.

By all means, call me a skeptic 

Cheers
Ikarius


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

I understand your skepticism ... But couldn't speak more on the topic. A side from taking directly to HSU, Perhaps someone could chime in...

I will say this, my HSU sub is great - love it.


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## Ikarius (Nov 22, 2011)

Just a quick question- what do folks think about rythmik F12 vs the SVS SB-12NSD? The "direct-servo" technology sounds interesting, but does it work? Does it justify the extra money?


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## pharoah (Jul 21, 2012)

servo subs are extremely accurate.the servo corrects the signal to keep it matched to the input.


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## Ikarius (Nov 22, 2011)

Sigh. Back to indecision. I just figured out exactly who/what PSA is, and the PSA XS-15 looks awfully tempting at it's price point. A 15" sealed with 500watt RMS for $700? Holy hell. That's got to be introductory pricing.

So, I'd guess it'd be between the PSA XS-15 or the Rythmik F12. I suspect that a servo'd sub would clean up what I was hearing as "muddy" when movie content got busy, but a 15" with ridiculous amounts of headroom would also probably clean that up. As for music, I suspect neither would even break a sweat... and both would be seriously dialed back for my room & system.

So.... any helpful thoughts? :bigsmile:


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

27dnast said:


> I understand your skepticism ... But couldn't speak more on the topic. A side from taking directly to HSU, Perhaps someone could chime in...
> 
> I will say this, my HSU sub is great - love it.


"Dr. Hsu" posts on the Hsu Research forum and offers great advice. I am not sure if he is the real Dr. or someone on his staff using that forum name. I think a post over there or a phone call will answer the OP's concern. I know that the VTF-15H has gotten great reviews. I have ULS15s in my system and they are great for music, but they are sealed. 

From what I have read, ported subs have gotten a bad rap for not having good transient response and that a properly designed one will do a great job for either music or movies. I know that Hsu knows how to design great subs, based on my experience with them. Great customer service is a plus as well.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

harrywilson951 said:


> Room dimensions and price range/cap would be handy to know.
> 
> That said, I'll suggest the following:
> - SVS SB12-NSD
> ...


Echo?


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

27dnast said:


> Not to derail the conversation from SVS - which makes great subs - the HSU subs come with port plugs... So you can have a boomy double -open -ports option to a more musical sealed port(s)... To one port open, one port closed.
> 
> It essentially allows you to tailor the sub to your needs...


I believe that SVS offers tune-able subs as well; that stated, HSU _is_ another option. The PSA subs also seem to be strong contenders. I'm not trying to confuse you, but you have A LOT of options. I honestly do not think that you can go wrong with any of the subs that have been recommended.


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## Ikarius (Nov 22, 2011)

As I said above, I think I'm down to two choices; the PSA XS-15 versus the Rythmik F-12. Both are sealed, and the biggest remaining question in my mind is whether the Rythmik servo technology presents a serious crispness/responsiveness advantage over a non-servo design. The pricing on the PSA XS-15 is incredibly attractive- I am assuming that the current PSA pricing is "grow a customer base" intro pricing, rather than "we're using cheap components to build our subs so we can undercut others" based on the PSA founders history.

Any of these subs are so much more substantial than what I've got, that I'm not terribly interested in a ported design to get more "boom" from a subwoofer. My #1 interest is how crisp the subwoofer can get.


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

I'm pretty sure that Jman has a PSA sub for review right now; from his initial comments (see link in previous post) I'm guessing that you are correct. _If_ you are not in a big hurry, wait until he finishes his review. :reading:


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## pharoah (Jul 21, 2012)

needless to say from what you have narrowed it down to.i think you would be real happy with either.flip a coin at this point.


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## Darksky Audio (Aug 28, 2012)

I have a pair of Rythmik F15HP subs. They are in sealed enclosures I built myself. I can recommend Rythmik's servo subwoofers without any reservation. 

The best way I can describe the difference in the sound from the Rythmiks: There is no overhang or muddiness in the bass. It is quick and crisp. I can hear individual events happening in rapid succession, as individual events not as a "rumble" or "roar". In my (limited) experience, these servo subwoofers are"better" - at least in my application.

I realize this is not the most succinct description, but I hope it will suffice


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## Ikarius (Nov 22, 2011)

I just pulled the trigger on the PSA sub. At the end of the day, I couldn't justify the extra $$ of the Rythmik when I'm pretty convinced the PSA will already be a massive improvement over what I've got today, and I've just got no way of knowing if or how much of an improvement the Rythmik would represent over the PSA. I exchanged emails with Tom of PSA, and feel pretty good, especially as I hail originally from Ohio, where PSA is located.

Value/dollar spent, I think the XS-15 looks like a monster.


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## pharoah (Jul 21, 2012)

15 with 500 watts sounds sweet to me.


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## GoNoles (Jul 7, 2012)

The FV15HP is an awesome sub, one I almost bought in my upgrade. I opted to save a few bucks and get the VTF15, I'm sold on 15's for HT use. 

After a week of testing and realizing how much better this sub sounded than my 12" Hsu, I spent some of that savings on the 5 yr amp warranty from them. If I do anything in the future, it'd be adding a second. 

I did a lot of reading, and you can't go wrong with dual empires, a vtf15, a fv15hp or a pb13 ultra. Now add the top of the line psa 15" to that list.


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## Ikarius (Nov 22, 2011)

Apparently PSA's current warranty is 5 years, No extra cost. Tom mentioned that when I mentioned it being a 1.0 version of a new product.


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## GoNoles (Jul 7, 2012)

That's great, what the norm should be IMO. HSU also offers a 7 year on the sub standard, another norm IMO. 

I've never been impressed with the 2yr amp warranties. To be frank, I've never been impressed with some of this stuff that offers only a 12 month.


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