# $700-$800 Budget - One or two subs?



## dec77 (Jul 30, 2011)

I'm working on completing a home theater that was started when my house was built. There are some speakers in the walls already, and most of the wiring is is place. I'm still having some work done to complete the wiring as well as some electrical work for can lights etc. That being said, I'm trying to avoid replacing whatever is already in place in the walls!

The room is 19' x 19' with an 8' ceiling. When it's all said and done the room should be 7.1.

I recently picked up an Onkyo TX NR809 receiver. 

I'm now trying to decide on what to do about the subwoofer. I'd like to keep my expenses on the sub to the $700-$800 range. That being said, do you guys think I'd be better off going with one nicer sub or two less expensive subs? I know this is a common question, but from what I've read, it seems like that answer is usually, "Spend more money than you had planned on and get..."

There are many brands I've read about in this forum (such as Rythmik, Hsu, Outlaw, SVS) that I had never heard of but seem to have great reviews! I'm definitely interested in anything like that! I am also willing to consider other brands like Klipsch (I know there's a deal right now on the Klipsch Reference RW-12d for $350 each).

So what do you guys think? Two of the Klipsch? Two of something else? One of something else?

Thanks!


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I am quite fond of SVS and HSU and the other ID Subwoofer Manufacturers. I think a good middle ground would be 2 HSU Research VTF-2 MKIII. They cost $509 each, but you might be able to get a Discount as you are purchasing 2. It will utterly wipe the floor with the Klipsch Subwoofer.

I love SVS, but now the cheapest Subwoofer is the SB-12NSD at $749 Dollars so that would make 2 of them fairly expensive. Dual HSU's would provide you with room filling bass.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I am quite fond of SVS and HSU and the other ID Subwoofer Manufacturers. I think a good middle ground would be 2 HSU Research VTF-2 MKIII. They cost $509 each, but you might be able to get a Discount as you are purchasing 2. It will utterly wipe the floor with the Klipsch Subwoofer.
> 
> I love SVS, but now the cheapest Subwoofer is the SB-12NSD at $749 Dollars so that would make 2 of them fairly expensive. Dual HSU's would provide you with room filling bass.
> ...


I really like this suggestion of dual HSUs. Another popular one is dual epik legends.

I would be interested in Dual Rythmik FV12s, as well.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> HSU Research VTF-2 MKIII. They cost $509 each, but you might be able to get a Discount as you are purchasing 2.


I got only $5 or $10 off my second vtf2 mk3 when I requested it, I dont think Hsu has a big profit margin. Besides, for their value and quality I dont blame them for holding pretty firm on their prices. Its kinda like asking Emotiva for an additional price break on their _sale_ price :sneeky: (Sorry, couldnt resist:rofl


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

dec77 said:


> I recently picked up an Onkyo TX NR809 receiver.
> That being said, do you guys think I'd be better off going with one nicer sub or two less expensive subs?


I tried moving one of my vtf 2 mk3 subs into another room, it was a very significant loss of performance. Your receiver is one of the few that supports dual subs with direct calibration for both. So dont walk, _run_ to dual subs if your budget permits. And thats even if it means going a couple hundred over.


----------



## dec77 (Jul 30, 2011)

So it sounds like everyone thinks I need dual 12" subs. My primary use will be movies and rarely music. I know bigger is better, but would dual 10" be a noticeable difference? I'm not trying to shake the house down, just have a great movie experience. Maybe something like dual HSU VTF-1?

Back on the 12", what do you guys think about dual Epik Legends? That doesn't blow the budget too badly at $900. Is the VTF-2 MK 3 that much better? As someone who doesn't really know what he's listening to, would I really be able to tell a difference? Or is there a difference in reliability between the two?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The Epik's would be excellent as well. I do think the VTF-2 will provide even more Bass and the difference is $108 Dollars. Regardless, both would be fantastic.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Don't forget to factor shipping into your budget. On subs, that could be almost $200.


----------



## dec77 (Jul 30, 2011)

Are the HSU and Epik only sold by the manufacturer or are their better places online from which to purchase?


----------



## dec77 (Jul 30, 2011)

And what did you guys think about the VTF-1? Would two of those be too small for my room?


----------



## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Internet direct means they only sell through the manufacturers website. The only other place to get them would be used in the classifieds. 

I'll throw one more wrench in the works: 2xemotiva sub 12s would fit your budget perfectly. You might also consider elemental designs, though their sub enclosures tend to be a bit bigger.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
If a really large room, the additional $104 Dollars per Subwoofer is well worth it. While the VTF-1 is quite good, the VTF-2 MKIII is a stone cold steal at $509. Also, the Shipping on the VTF-2 is $63 Dollars. If you live in California, or in the West, you might get Hsu to reduce the Shipping Costs. However, it is a pretty heavy Subwoofer.


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

dec77 said:


> So it sounds like everyone thinks I need dual 12" subs. My primary use will be movies and rarely music. I know bigger is better, but would dual 10" be a noticeable difference? I'm not trying to shake the house down, just have a great movie experience. Maybe something like dual HSU VTF-1?


Whether you listen loud or not, more surface area is always a good idea, as it reduces chance for motor distortion. I don't even consider the majority of 10 inch drivers to be subwoofers to be honest. Many tower speakers can match the extension or output of many lesser 10 inch subs, which is a dissapointment. Of course, there's some high excursion, extremely well designed 10s out there that can compete with many 12s, no doubt, but then cost goes up for the advanced motor structure and necessarily high power necessary. A subwoofer is a pump, and it just pumps air easier if it's got more surface area to contact the air. You still need a good motor to push that pump, but air is a mass and the more contact area to air you have, the less the motor has to push.



> Back on the 12", what do you guys think about dual Epik Legends?


While I wish I knew what the frequency response curve looked like, I can say that dual epik legends should be a pretty good option. They're sealed, so they won't likely dig as deep as the HSUs, but sealed subs tend to be the easiest for manufacturers to tune for natural sound quality. Bear in mind that these aren't 12 inch subs, but rather dual 12" driver per subwoofer. In terms of radiating surface area, it's closer to a 16 or 17" woofer, so it can really move a lot of air with minimal excursion. Whether it's tuned for high output or deep extension, I honestly have no clue; I wish there was a frequency response plot of it.

But I think it should be an outstanding choice, either way.



> Is the VTF-2 MK 3 that much better?


Vented subs generally have more efficiency in the depths, which is well suited to large rooms. I suspect either choice will equally please you. I would personally lean towards the legends, but either should be a good choice.



> As someone who doesn't really know what he's listening to, would I really be able to tell a difference?


The number one rule about bass is that, past a certain point of badness, the room dominates what you hear. This is why we recommend multiple (2, 3, even 4) subs, as placing them separately from each other helps balance out the room's effect. accurate bass reproduction is generally considered to be:

1) +/- 3db in room tolerance in the frequency response, from 20hz right up to the frequency where the room no longer dominates.
2) Group delay never longer than a single, maybe even half cycle at any given frequency.
3) Harmonic Distortion dominated mostly be 2nd order, and not over 10%

2 and 3 are generally covered by good internet direct woofers. Sealed subs will have less group delay, and larger subs will have less distortion/output/extension. Ported subs will however be more efficient at the bottom octaves, sometimes to a point where they have a rising low end response especially in-room (undesirable)

So how do you get +/- 3db tolerance? The sub won't do it. The sub could have +/- 1db anechoic frequency response, but once it goes in the room, the tolerance goes out the window. It could +/- 15db tolerance (no, seriously) because of peaks and dips caused by standing waves in the room. Even if you equalize the peaks down at your seating position, you won't do much at other seats which will have a different response.

Adding a second sub can usually get your tolerance down pretty well, often near +/- 5db or so - this flat out sounds better. The other sub just manages to load the room differently and thus "fill in" the gaps. Equalizing becomes easier because the response is now more consistent from seat to seat.

And of course, if you want that +/- 3db tolerance, you probably want to add yet one more sub. 

In this case, it's actually quantity, not quality, that wins out!

I'm sure there's audible differences in the response between the Epik and HSU subs, but the biggest difference would likely come at the extremes - the loudest transients or the deepest notes. Both should be very musical and have plenty of rumble for movies. Like I said, the ROOM normally dominates the sound. Where differences between subs often come into play, is in the bottom octave - 20hz to 35hz or so, and and at the loudest peaks - 105+ db or so - in a sense it's probably splitting hairs.



> Or is there a difference in reliability between the two?


Both should be well built. Epik and HSU are both respectable companies. With that said, I truly feel the Rythmik FV12 I recommend earlier, will be a step up from these two options, because of its servo technology.


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

I want to correct myself. The Legend actually has similar extension to the HSU.

Legend
Frequency response : 20-200 Hz +/-3.5 dB
16 - 18 Hz usable in-room extension


VTF-2 - 
Frequency Response Bass extension +/- 1 dB(maxiumum extension mode)
18 Hz, +/- 1 dB
Frequency Response (maxiumum output mode)
25 Hz

Both should be excellent subs. Like I said, my personal preference would lean towards the legend.


----------



## dec77 (Jul 30, 2011)

Thank you all for your help! This has been very informative and interesting!

I'm probably going to go with the Legends. It seems as if it's an excellent product and they aren't too far out of my price range. Actually they all seem like great products and I'd probably be happy with any of them!

Now I just have to convince my wife about the expense!!!

I had considered trying to build a couple subs with maybe a sonotube and adding wood veneer, but I'm afraid I'd screw it up! 

My wife really isn't too excited about having these things sitting out in the open so I'm trying to figure out the best way to disguise them. I thought the sonotubes might look decorative w/ the veneer, but again, I'd probably screw it up. 

Anyway, thanks again to everyone for your help!


----------



## Brunt (Aug 7, 2011)

I would also look at Elemental Designs A2-300. Around $400 a piece and they DO offer discount on two and their prices INCLUDE shipping. Alex from ED has stated the A2-300 is Elemental's best bang for buck sub!


----------



## dec77 (Jul 30, 2011)

The elemental designs is definitely interesting. They also have free shipping! Any other thoughts on the elemental designs?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I am a huge fan of eD and they really are gaining a head of steam. I really love that they are Made in America. If memory serves the Company has its roots at Iowa State or the University of Iowa. Honestly fantastic value and the Free Shipping is a major advantage given how much it usually costs.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

ED based in Newton Iowa with some ISU ties, I believe. I've visited their shop before and they are the real deal. Maybe not as refined in design, finish, etc as some other brands, but boom for the buck, they are hard to beat.


----------



## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

ED get's a nod just for having this on their website. I don't care if it's even real.

sga2


----------



## dec77 (Jul 30, 2011)

Wow! What do you even do with that? Where would you put it? I'm pretty sure the wife will veto that one!


----------



## putox1051 (Nov 20, 2009)

If WAF is a concern , go with Rythmik, Emotiva, HSU, or Epik. EDs sound good, but IMHO, they are butt ugly. I've got dual Emotiva Ultra 12s in black oak in a 15x15x8 room & they're awesome. I also have dual Epik Empires in a 32x15x8 room & they move plenty of air. I don't have to deal with WAF, but I still wouldn't want an industrial looking ED in my listening room. YMMV. Best of luck.


----------



## vann_d (Apr 7, 2009)

Include and subwoofer equalization solution in your setup no matter what. That is my 2 cents. I have one 15" sub with an eq. system and it sounds great and is more than enough for our listening habits (my wife won't let me turn it up past -25dB  ). The eq makes it sound smooth and balanced rather than boomy. My room has a huge 35Hz mode that dominates without eq.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I do think that the Wood Veneer Finishes offered on many ID Subwoofers really transforms the appearance. While certainly more expensive, I have found it often helps with WAF.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Im so glad I ponied-up the dough and got the Hsu VTF2 MK3s in Rosenut. Ive had numerous compliments on their beauty and several, "Oh, I thought those were end tables!" comments.

Sadly, my pair was one of the last to get the Rosenut finish. You can now have the VTF2 MK3 in whatever color you want, as long as its black.


----------



## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

dec77 said:


> There are some speakers in the walls already...


I know we've been discussing subwoofers, but I'm wondering what you plan to do for main speakers. Tell us more about the placement of the inwall speakers. Also, what model are the speakers already installed? I'm concerned they may be contractor grade, placed there to impress the uneducated. Personally, I think inwall speakers have serious shortcomings, even expensive ones.


----------



## gorb (Sep 5, 2010)

putox1051 said:


> If WAF is a concern , go with Rythmik, Emotiva, HSU, or Epik. EDs sound good, but IMHO, they are butt ugly. I've got dual Emotiva Ultra 12s in black oak in a 15x15x8 room & they're awesome. I also have dual Epik Empires in a 32x15x8 room & they move plenty of air. I don't have to deal with WAF, but I still wouldn't want an industrial looking ED in my listening room. YMMV. Best of luck.


ED does have other finishes available (at a higher cost), like gloss black/bamboo/cherry/maple/walnut. Unfortunately pictures are unavailable for most of them though. Here's a picture of the A7S-650 and I think it looks pretty nice:


----------



## dec77 (Jul 30, 2011)

Well I took the grills off of the in walls and all i can tell is that theyre Elans...not sure of the model though.


----------



## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

dec77 said:


> Well I took the grills off of the in walls and all i can tell is that theyre Elans...not sure of the model though.


Tell us more about their configuration. How are they placed? Does it include L/C/R plus surrounds?

Looks like Elans are decent.


----------



## dec77 (Jul 30, 2011)

It looks like all five speakers are the same. The configuration is two front w/ center and two rear surrounds. 

I'm thining of getting two in-ceiling speakers to upgrade to 7.1. Also considering replacing at least the center speaker. I would love to avoid having to replace everything if I can. My fear is that I'll get a couple of nice subs and a nice center channel and then everything else will sound like !


----------



## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

dec77 said:


> It looks like all five speakers are the same. The configuration is two front w/ center and two rear surrounds.
> 
> I'm thining of getting two in-ceiling speakers to upgrade to 7.1. Also considering replacing at least the center speaker. I would love to avoid having to replace everything if I can. My fear is that I'll get a couple of nice subs and a nice center channel and then everything else will sound like !


Why are you considering replacing the center? Are you thinking of getting a in room center? I believe timbre matching is important, that at least the L/C/R should be the same speaker and the surrounds should be from the same manufacturer.

Is this a dedicated home theater? What are the dimensions? Why do you want to install the back surrounds in the ceiling?

I think in ceiling speakers for A/V are not a good idea. Modern soundtracks use very specific location cues, not like early surround that was more to provide ambience. For instance, we watched "Fellowship of the Ring" on blu ray the other night. There's a seen where birds are sent to spy on the Fellowship and report back their location. We watch the group cowering behind rocks, then the birds swoop down over our heads directly towards them. The birds come in the frame slightly to the right and their visual entrance in the frame is preceding with their calls. The audio is very directional and heightens the effect of the scene.


----------



## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

DougMac said:


> Why are you considering replacing the center? I believe timbre matching is important, that at least the L/C/R should be the same speaker and the surrounds should be from the same manufacturer..


+1


DougMac said:


> ... Why do you want to install the back surrounds in the ceiling? I think in ceiling speakers for A/V are not a good idea. Modern soundtracks use very specific location cues, not like early surround that was more to provide ambience. The audio is very directional and heightens the effect of the scene.


I agree to get the best effects, surround speakers should be placed app. 2' above earlevel, and inwall/inceiling mounted speakers aren't the best choice. But... For WAF I did install inceiling speakers for my surrounds. They are app. 10' above the floor.
In the last minute of the latest Robin Hood movie, there is an arrow shot from behind the listener and lands in a tree at center screen. Even though my inceiling surround speakers are 7' above our ears, the wife and I jumped when we first heard this scene because it sounded like the arrow flew only inches from our right ears.

Subwoofers:
Have you looked into building an IB (infinite baffle) subwoofer? .... http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/ib-infinite-baffle-subwoofer-build-projects/ .... The IB subwoofer box is actually in an adjacent room (attic, crawl space, garage...) and there is just a hole in the wall where the sound comes out into the listening room. This hole can be left open or it can be covered with speaker cloth or ventilation grill. This might be more agreeable with the wife.


----------



## dec77 (Jul 30, 2011)

The room is 19' x 19' with an 8' ceiling. It's not a dedicated home theater, but more of a man cave. I have a small bar in the corner and the seating is a sectional couch and a chaise lounge. My wine cellar is off to the side. 

The rear surrounds that are there now are in the wall. But the existing speakers will only get 5.1 (once I add subwoofers). I was going to add two additional speakers and was going for in-ceilings for those only.

As far as the infinite baffle, there is a basement garage adjacent to the wall with the TV. Above that garage is the master suite. Also I have two dog kennels in the garage that I sometimes keep my dogs in (but not that often). I was concerned mostly about noise in the master suite if I built an infinite baffle into the garage.


----------



## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

dec77 said:


> ... I was concerned mostly about noise in the master suite if I built an infinite baffle into the garage.


If you didn't know already, your garage would get the same amount of bass (SPL) put into it as your listening room.


----------



## dec77 (Jul 30, 2011)

Yeah that's kind of what I'm worried about with the garage. The dogs aren't really in there enough to be concerned about that...but my wife is definitely in the master suite enough (above the basement garage) to worry about that!


----------



## MikeBiker (Jan 3, 2010)

dec77 said:


> Yeah that's kind of what I'm worried about with the garage. The dogs aren't really in there enough to be concerned about that...but my wife is definitely in the master suite enough (above the basement garage) to worry about that!


I would think that your wife would hear your sounds no matter what you did for a sub set-up. Teach her to like to listen to what you are listening to.


----------



## flyng_fool (Apr 10, 2010)

Well, did you get your subs yet? How do you like them?


----------



## mrbashfo (Oct 24, 2010)

Id say you will also probably need 2 subs also. I only have 1 right now but definately doesnt pass sound around enough LOL


----------



## dec77 (Jul 30, 2011)

I had decided to get the Epik Legends but now I've been reconsidering the infinite baffle. The problem is that I've never built anything like this so I'm afraid to screw it up.

I've also been considering building in-wall Nat P's, but again, I don't know what the I'm doing.

For now I've decided to stick w/ my in-wall Elans until after I get the subs and try it all out...so now I'm back to the point where I have to decide if I want to try to build something or buy something. I like the idea of having something that's in the wall for the sub instead of a box (I mean 2 boxes), but I am lacking in the confidence department. 

What do you guys think? Just how hard is this really?


----------



## mrbashfo (Oct 24, 2010)

Honestly, if you have your heart set out for the IB don't over think it. I personally think trial and error is a great way to learn and be more attached to the stuff you love. So I mean I would give it a shot if you have the basic know hows and you can always look up the pretty nice guides they have on these forums as a start.


----------



## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

The IB sub is a good beginner project because the actual box usually is out of sight so you don't have to worry about making it perfectly square and pretty, and also the technical aspect of the build of the box is a bit forgiving also.


----------

