# Surge Protection Upgrade Question



## AtomicAgeZombie (May 2, 2012)

I currently have the Tripp Lite Home Theater Surge Protector, but I've been looking at the Ethereal Power Manager 2000. Is it worth switching? What are the reasons for switching or not?

Thanks


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Although triplite makes a great product the Ethereal is a huge step up ( I have two of them). The internal parts will be better quality and the ability to switch devices off using the built in trigger is a nice bonus  You can get the Ethereal 1000 here for a great price.


----------



## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

I suppose the main reason not to upgrade is price. I am not sure what your goals are. The Ethereal has higher rating in joules, but remember that nothing will protect your gear if you have a direct lighting strike to or near the power lines coming into your house. Induced current from lightning strikes to trees can travel into the house also - had two cases of that in the 27 years in this house when pine trees about 20 feet from the house were struck. Fried a new Sony TV, a Velodyne subwoofer amp, a receiver, and the subwoofer output from a rather expensive surround processor.

I have read mixed reviews about any benefits of additional filtering; running from "incredible, removed many veils from the sound" (whatever that means) from the more "esoteric" magazines and websites to "no benefit" from more down to earth sources. If you have large sources of electromagnetic or radio interferences around or in your house, maybe. But for normal installations, I suspect that you would be hard pressed to see or hear the difference.

Anyway, that's my opinion. Lets see what our other members think.


----------



## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Lightning is a straaaaaange beast. There is no protection from a close strike except being totally unplugged/disconnected.

On the other hand, even in the good old US with our clean power, once in a blue moon there are weird glitches that a good surge protector could catch. And if it saves on piece of precious gear. Thing is, you never know how much it is helping. At the price, it is relatively cheap insurance. I have no belief that it will improve your sound, only that it _might_ prevent a failure somewhere along the line.

Then there are sunspots to consider...:sn:


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I fully agree that it wont "improve" your sound however they are good at filtering noise and even getting rid of unwanted ground hum.


----------



## AtomicAgeZombie (May 2, 2012)

I'll add this, not sure if it makes a difference, but I live in a 100+ year old row home in the middle of the block. The wiring probably hasn't been upgraded in 30+ years.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I would be more concerned if you had bad grounding, if your ground is just floating or none at all that would be the first thing I would get fixed.


----------



## AtomicAgeZombie (May 2, 2012)

I've had an electrician out recently, the house is filled with knob and tube wiring, and it's grounded, but the sockets are all 2 prong.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ya, if you only have two prong outlets any sort of surge suppression is pointless as a real power spike will need the ground for it to function properly.


----------



## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

I agree with Tony. Without the third prong, the surge suppressor has no path to ground/neutral.


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Well, pointless is an overstatement. Compromised severely is more accurate. Any of the signal line suppression will likely be mostly compromised because the go to ground only in most units. Most modern MOV based surge suppressors use MOVs across all combinations of hot, neutral, and ground, so current will be dumped back to neutral if there is a spike on the hot side. MOVs don't care where it comes from, they just conduct when there is a voltage that exceeds the junction ability to block current.

That said, most damage and most ground loops come from signal line issues. So regardless, make sure that those are properly grounded.


----------



## AtomicAgeZombie (May 2, 2012)

Yeah, as I was breaking this down yesterday, it was dawning on me what the real issue is. So I'm going to get the electrician out and get the room taken care of. Once that is done, should I look to upgrade or just stick with the Tripp Lite? In general, is there any advantage at all?


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

IMO, grounding will get you the most and your triplite is fine.


----------



## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> I fully agree that it wont "improve" your sound however they are good at filtering noise and even getting rid of unwanted ground hum.


This is true.:T Also agreeing with other posters, need to get that ground fixed, for protection and hum/noise reduction!


----------



## westom (May 5, 2012)

AtomicAgeZombie said:


> So I'm going to get the electrician out and get the room taken care of.


Understand why room wire changes will accomplish nothing.

Lightning struck church steeples because wood was the best conductor to earth. Since wood is not a very good conductor, then a 20,000 amp surge also creates a high voltage.

Franklin simply connected lightning to earth via a rod. A rod does not do protection. Protection is a significantly more conductive (and shorter) path to earth. Then 20,000 amps creates a near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No damage.

That is a surge finding earth destructively via the structure. Lightning can also find earth destructively inside via appliances. A lightning strike far down the street is a direct strike incoming to every appliance. Critical is a more conductive path to earth. Ground in a receptacle is insufficient (excessive; typically 120 ohms impedance). Too far from earth (ie more than 10 feet). Too many sharp wire bends. Splices. May be inside metallic conduit. Etc.

Protection is a more conductive path to earth. One 'whole house' protector connected within feet of earth ground means 20,000 amps creates a near zero voltage - like a lightning rod. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is, again, near zero energy.

Best protection for any house (two wire or three) is earthing one 'whole house' protector. A surge current permitted inside will find destructive paths via appliances. That Tripplite putting a surge on a neutral or safety ground wire only gives a surge even more paths to find earth destructively via nearby appliances.

Protection is always about no current inside the building. Protection is always about earthing BEFORE that current enters a building. How protection has always been done even 100 years ago. How protection is implemented in any facility that cannot have damage.

If that current is permitted inside (ie inside the room), then it will hunt destructively for earth via nearby appliances. Nothing inside will avert that hunt. Nothing. Again, protection is about earthing BEFORE that current enters the building. The only solution always used where damage cannot happen.

Put numbers to it. A tiny 100 amp surge enters the room. A Tripplite connects that current to all nearby appliances. And to a ground wire going back to the breaker box. That ground wire may be 0.1 ohms resistance. And 120 ohms impedance. !00 amps times 120 ohms is something less than 12,000 volts. At 12,000 volts, the surge will hunt for other paths to earth. Ie destructively via nearby appliances. Protection means earth ground - not a safety ground provided by a wall receptacle. 

One 'whole house' protector (if properly earthed) means a surge does not hunt for earth destructively inside. Lightning rods (if properly earthed) means a surge does not find earth destructively via the building. In both cases, protection is defined by the low impedance connection to earth - not by a protector or lightning rod.

Your electrician must upgrade earthing electrodes and their connections to both meet and exceed current code requirements. Safety grounds (to receptacles) are irrelevant. Connect a 'whole house' protector low impedance (ie as short as possible) to earth ground. Even a sharp wire bend compromises protection. A protector or lightning rod is only as effective as that connection to earth. Earth ground should have most of your attention.

BTW, the Tripplite does not even claim to protect from destructive types of surges.


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Tom would be correct on several points. The impedance of the path to earth is the critical variable to directing surges to safe paths that do not damage "appliances." Unfortunately, his diatribes are tangential to the reality of how modern devices get damaged. For years I have seen him make these arguments, contradicting experience and the recommendations of professionals as well as his own points.

In the past he has argued that MOVs were insufficient at providing protection, even causing damage themselves. Now he suggests that whole house suppressors are the best protection. But whole house suppressors use MOVs, which clamp across the various conductors in exactly the same way that system local suppressors do.

He would be correct in stating that impedance in the path is important. He would be incorrect in assuming that the impedance from a system to earth through a ground wire is higher than through the power supply of an "appliance." For nearly 3 decades I serviced systems struck by lightning and saw hundreds of damaged devices. Almost never were those damaged connected to surge suppressors. For systems where there were surge suppressors that did not protect, the damage almost every time was due to unprotected and poorly grounded signal lines where the surge did damage from the ground side in a device. In virtually all cases where power supplies were protected by MOV based surge suppressors, they did their job. Where signal lines were protected they also did their job. In the 10+ years I worked for a dealer that installed surge suppressors on nearly every system I never saw one that was properly protected with MOV based system local devices that had surge damage. Every case of damage with such devices what where the cable or sat lines had been disconnected and ground paths on signal connections showed damage.

Please take the information that Tom gives in the context of a more complete understanding of the system and circuits involved.

Code requires grounds on household circuits. To say that these grounds are not relevant is poorly stating the facts in favor of some agenda that has nothing to do with whether your system is protected effectively or not.

Ground your system according to code. Make sure all signal lines are properly grounded and protected. Use system local surge protectors that cover all lines into each system. Use whole house suppressors and where possible include signal line protection at that point. It is not necessary to spend a lot of money on protection devices if you follow these guidelines. This is good, sensible advice that is proven by decades of practice and is consistent with the advice of experts in the field.


----------



## westom (May 5, 2012)

lcaillo said:


> In the past he has argued that MOVs were insufficient at providing protection, even causing damage themselves. Now he suggests that whole house suppressors are the best protection. But whole house suppressors use MOVs, which clamp across the various conductors in exactly the same way that system local suppressors do.


 I never said MOVs were insufficient. My designs used MOVs. The statement is only possible by ignoring previously posted numbers. MOV protectors that fail were grossly undersized. Tripplite (2600 joules means only 860 to 1800 joules are implemented) would be an example since destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules.

Irrelevant is observation. One must also learn the science. We did not just replace protectors and damaged equipment. We traced each surge through individual semiconductors. Learned how electronics got damaged. Discovered what human mistake made damage possible. Even replaced each damaged semiconductor to make electronics functional. So that we knew exactly what was damaged and why.

To be damaged, an appliance must have both an incoming and an outgoing current path. A direct lightning strike to utility wires far down the street is a direct strike incoming to every household appliance. Is every appliance damaged? Of course not. Damaged are appliances that also have an outgoing path. Damage is most often on the outgoing (signal) path; not the incoming path.

Observation often assumes that damage was on an incoming (signal) path. Reality. The outgoing path (to earth) is often damaged. For example, a surge incoming on AC mains can find earth destructively via a router or modem. An outgoing and damaged path is via a wire connected to a cable TV or telephone wire. Damage is often a surge's outgoing path; not the incoming path.

Code requires grounds on household circuits. That means only one wire to be grounded. Protection means *every* wire must be grounded. To exceed code requirements. Either directly to earth (ie cable TV). Or via a 'whole house' protector (AC electric, telephone). If any one wire enters without that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth, then all protection is compromised.

BTW, all telephone lines already have a 'whole house' protector at the subscriber interface installed for free by the telco.

We did this stuff as engineers. Observation by technicians (ie electricians) often got it wrong. Systems were fixed after techs would replace blown protectors rather than learn the technology. Many techs do not understand that even sharp wire bends can compromise protection. Code says nothing about that 'no sharp bend' requirement.

A protector must be sized to earth a direct lightning strike. A protector (with or without MOVs) must not fail. Once a defective protection system was corrected, then nobody even knew a surge existed. MOV based 'whole house' protectors (traditionally a best solution) do not fail when properly sized.

Ground your system to meet code. Still insufficient for surge protection. Upgrade earthing to exceed code requirements. That means every incoming utility wire must connect to single point earth ground before entering. That means every incoming utility wire must make a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to one specific earth ground. Single point earth ground.

Safety ground on a wall receptacle does not protect electronics as demonstrated by previously posted numbers (ie 120 ohms times 100 amps) and other facts. Code requirements must be exceeded. Protection means a protector is undamaged even by a direct lightning strike.

Protection is about one specific ground. Single point earth ground. OP's electrician installs a best solution by earthing a 'whole house' protector. Doing nothing to receptacle safety grounds. And upgrading earth ground to exceed code requirements. Best solution is also a least expensive solution. Then everything in that room and the house (including a Tripplite) is protected.


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

westom said:


> I never said MOVs were insufficient. My designs used MOVs. The statement is only possible by ignoring previously posted numbers. MOV protectors that fail were grossly undersized. Tripplite (2600 joules means only 860 to 1800 joules are implemented) would be an example since destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules.


Actually you have, when it was convenient. You have also made assumptions about what size MOVs are used in plug in surge suppressors without specific reference to devices. Your generalizations and incomplete sentences are very difficult for users to parse for useful information.




westom said:


> Irrelevant is observation. One must also learn the science. We did not just replace protectors and damaged equipment. We traced each surge through individual semiconductors. Learned how electronics got damaged. Discovered what human mistake made damage possible. Even replaced each damaged semiconductor to make electronics functional. So that we knew exactly what was damaged and why.


I would disagree regarding observation. Your condescension, suggesting that anyone who does not agree with you does not understand the science is unacceptable at this forum.



westom said:


> To be damaged, an appliance must have both an incoming and an outgoing current path. A direct lightning strike to utility wires far down the street is a direct strike incoming to every household appliance. Is every appliance damaged? Of course not. Damaged are appliances that also have an outgoing path. Damage is most often on the outgoing (signal) path; not the incoming path.


I am not sure what the point is here. The first sentence is correct but the rest is not making sense. The damage on most devices where the surge comes in on the power supply is to power supply components and not on the signal line side. Most damage on signal lines comes from poor grounding on the incoming line and can take a single path or several.



westom said:


> Observation often assumes that damage was on an incoming (signal) path. Reality. The outgoing path (to earth) is often damaged. For example, a surge incoming on AC mains can find earth destructively via a router or modem. An outgoing and damaged path is via a wire connected to a cable TV or telephone wire. Damage is often a surge's outgoing path; not the incoming path.


My experience is different and based upon hundreds of observations and actual repairs. Rarely are consumer electronics damaged by surges that come in on a.c. lines and exit on signal grounds. Virtually all damage on the power side results in shorted components in the primary of the power supply with no damage on the signal lines.



westom said:


> Code requires grounds on household circuits. That means only one wire to be grounded. Protection means *every* wire must be grounded. To exceed code requirements. Either directly to earth (ie cable TV). Or via a 'whole house' protector (AC electric, telephone). If any one wire enters without that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth, then all protection is compromised.
> 
> BTW, all telephone lines already have a 'whole house' protector at the subscriber interface installed for free by the telco.


The first paragraph is correct, other than that there is nothing magical about 10 feet. The value of a ground connection depends on the relative impedance compared to other paths, not some arbitrary length. There is no specification for the length of a ground in current codes. In Florida and Louisiana, where I have extensive experience, there are rarely devices on telephone lines coming into a home nor will the "telco" install them for free.




westom said:


> We did this stuff as engineers. Observation by technicians (ie electricians) often got it wrong. Systems were fixed after techs would replace blown protectors rather than learn the technology. Many techs do not understand that even sharp wire bends can compromise protection. Code says nothing about that 'no sharp bend' requirement.


Technicians often understand much more than engineers assume. Certainly there are techs that know little, just like there are engineers that have little real world experience and make assumptions that are poorly founded. Once again, your condescension has worn thin and will not be tolerated here.



westom said:


> A protector must be sized to earth a direct lightning strike. A protector (with or without MOVs) must not fail. Once a defective protection system was corrected, then nobody even knew a surge existed. MOV based 'whole house' protectors (traditionally a best solution) do not fail when properly sized.


Similar sized MOVs are used in whole house suppressors and in better quality plug in suppressors. It depends on the brand and model, but check the specs to compare current handling rather than assuming.



westom said:


> Ground your system to meet code. Still insufficient for surge protection. Upgrade earthing to exceed code requirements. That means every incoming utility wire must connect to single point earth ground before entering. That means every incoming utility wire must make a low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to one specific earth ground. Single point earth ground.


Good advice, other than the fact that it is unrealistic to have less than 10 feet on many grounds. That does not necessarily make them ineffective, however. Nor good grounding eliminate the usefulness of clamping devices at many points in a home system. The assumption that any line more than 10 feet represents a higher impedance than a path though a component, and the the assumption that clamping devices local to a system are ineffective are simply not consistent with the advice and experience of the vast majority of installation experts, engineers, and techs.



westom said:


> Safety ground on a wall receptacle does not protect electronics as demonstrated by previously posted numbers (ie 120 ohms times 100 amps) and other facts. Code requirements must be exceeded. Protection means a protector is undamaged even by a direct lightning strike.
> 
> Protection is about one specific ground. Single point earth ground. OP's electrician installs a best solution by earthing a 'whole house' protector. Doing nothing to receptacle safety grounds. And upgrading earth ground to exceed code requirements. Best solution is also a least expensive solution. Then everything in that room and the house (including a Tripplite) is protected.


Again, it is very hard to sort out the point here. There is some value in what is said, but the surge suppressor local to a system is still useful because it diverts current to ground, neutral, or hot, wherever the lowest impedance path exists.


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Solid ground connections, kept as short as possible, all signal lines grounded to the electrical service ground per code at or near the service entrance, and protection on all power and signal lines is good practice. Whole house suppressors are great, but rarely cover signal lines. System local devices that cover all signal lines can provide extra protection.

There is little value in protection to more expensive power centers. Some feel that extra line filtering can be a benefit to performance but I have rarely found any advantage to them except in situations where there is an unusual line noise problem that cannot be solved otherwise.


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

In a deleted post a user stated that telephone line protectors are required by code and are installed by the telephone company. This is not the case for homes in the US. What is required is grounding of all incoming lines at or near the service entrance to the electrical service ground. 

We strongly recommend regular checks of grounding on all signal lines and the electrical service ground to assure solid connections. Surge arrestors or protectors at the entrance to the house are great, but often costly and difficult to locate close to the electrical service due to entry points. Surge suppressors designed to clamp voltage at the system level do appear to be effective, but any protection scheme needs to have proper grounding according to electrical codes.

Protection is not complicated. Better grounding with short runs and without sharp turns and additional clamping and/or inductor based devices are likely to improve protection.


----------



## AtomicAgeZombie (May 2, 2012)

Thanks for all the input guys. I'll let you know what happens.


----------



## tonymackers478 (Nov 4, 2020)

For a residential electrician Atlanta is sometimes needed when doing some upgrades to your electrical surge protectors.


----------

