# The most important audio cable in your system



## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Your ground.

I'm fixing to redo my entire system based on some recent studies I've done. I realize that my dedicated isolated ground system is flawed based on the equipment being used and that means I really need to buckle down... rethink... redo. 

and yes... I think that most audio cables have an affect on your sound not by the sound of the cable itself but by the affect that cable has on your ground system.


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## witchdoctor (Feb 21, 2016)

Can you post a build thread on the changes you are making? It would be interesting, thanks.


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## FargateOne (Mar 3, 2015)

witchdoctor said:


> Can you post a build thread on the changes you are making? It would be interesting, thanks.


A++


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I think it is absolutely amazing that 99% of the people that buy an AVR, X# of speakers, sub, TV, BD player....
plug everything directly into the wall outlet via plug strip, connect all the gear together with the included interconnects.....never have any issues with ground loop or hiss.
All things considered, absolutely amazing.


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## systemhd (Mar 4, 2016)

FargateOne said:


> A++


:smile:


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

​


chashint said:


> I think it is absolutely amazing that 99% of the people that buy an AVR, X# of speakers, sub, TV, BD player....
> plug everything directly into the wall outlet via plug strip, connect all the gear together with the included interconnects.....never have any issues with ground loop or hiss.
> All things considered, absolutely amazing.


What can I say, it works for me..:whistling: Actually, its not that amazing anymore with the advent of polarized lplugs and wall sockets which makes sure everything is connected in phase. Before the polarized plug,I would definately agree with your statement.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Talley said:


> Your ground.
> 
> I'm fixing to redo my entire system based on some recent studies I've done. I realize that my dedicated isolated ground system is flawed based on the equipment being used and that means I really need to buckle down... rethink... redo.
> 
> and yes... I think that most audio cables have an affect on your sound not by the sound of the cable itself but by the affect that cable has on your ground system.


Good thread. Good thought. I would like to make clear a point that Audiocraver has made recently. That is that cables, including grounds, can't make anything sound better, only alter what is there if they are not designed well or functioning properly. Good ground design and integrity should simply minimize noise. 

I also agree with the comments that it is surprising that we don't have more ground loops, etc. considering the complexity of our systems and how interconnected they are. A few things that mitigate it, however, are much better double isolated products which do not need extra chassis grounds, better adherence to and understanding of electrical codes, and the proliferation of wireless devices, reducing the inter-system connections. In the early days of home theater we actually had more problems, largely because of the poor, no, or incorrect grounding of signal sources, like cable and satellite.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Interesting post.
So are we saying that most of us are not grounding properly ? I plug everything in as the equipment was designed and don't notice any issues, but that is not to say that if something is done better any grounding issues would become clearly evident. I do have one issue with my AVR in that its internal grounding could be a bit loose as I can now hear some pops in the speakers as I raise or lower the volume control or change inputs. Gotta send the unit in....otherwise it works well.

I will have to follow this.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Ground issues are the exception these days.
The majority simply buy gear, plug it all in, and it works fine.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Savjac said:


> Interesting post.
> So are we saying that most of us are not grounding properly ? I plug everything in as the equipment was designed and don't notice any issues, but that is not to say that if something is done better any grounding issues would become clearly evident. I do have one issue with my AVR in that its internal grounding could be a bit loose as I can now hear some pops in the speakers as I raise or lower the volume control or change inputs. Gotta send the unit in....otherwise it works well.
> 
> I will have to follow this.


Are the pops only associated with HDMI switching?
Which AVR do you have?


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

Savjac said:


> Interesting post.
> So are we saying that most of us are not grounding properly ? I plug everything in as the equipment was designed and don't notice any issues, but that is not to say that if something is done better any grounding issues would become clearly evident. I do have one issue with my AVR in that its internal grounding could be a bit loose as I can now hear some pops in the speakers as I raise or lower the volume control or change inputs. Gotta send the unit in....otherwise it works well.
> 
> I will have to follow this.


I'm wondering if the controls are dirty and your getting intermittent contact with either the volume control or the input select?


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Thank You for your input guys.
I have the Denon AVR 4520ci and no it is not limited to the HDMI inputs.
I spoke to the guy at the repair center yesterday and he said this model is famous for its grounding problems. I bought it as a refirb, and it broke in about 45 days wherein it would no longer pass sound at all. I sent it in and after many cuss words were calmly shot through the phone lines, I got it back 3 months later. It worked for a time and then, just out of the repair warrantee, these pops and what have you started. The repair gent said that some of the little grounding screws deep under the boards tend to come loose and they need to be tightened again. I am kind of afraid to send things in again, although this is a different repair facility he might do a right proper job.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Savjac said:


> Thank You for your input guys. I have the Denon AVR 4520ci and no it is not limited to the HDMI inputs. I spoke to the guy at the repair center yesterday and he said this model is famous for its grounding problems. I bought it as a refirb, and it broke in about 45 days wherein it would no longer pass sound at all. I sent it in and after many cuss words were calmly shot through the phone lines, I got it back 3 months later. It worked for a time and then, just out of the repair warrantee, these pops and what have you started. The repair gent said that some of the little grounding screws deep under the boards tend to come loose and they need to be tightened again. I am kind of afraid to send things in again, although this is a different repair facility he might do a right proper job.


 Sounds like a good excuse for upgraditis! Hmm…Atmos?


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

JBrax said:


> Sounds like a good excuse for upgraditis! Hmm…Atmos?


I like your style good sir, I like your style. :T


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Savjac said:


> I like your style good sir, I like your style. :T


 I know first hand that it's an easier sell to the finance committee. It starts something like this…hey honey the receiver broke and now we need to buy another…ok how much? Well you know that Dolby Atmos thing I've been talking about? Yes, but how much to upgrade? Now here's where it gets dicey and is imperative that you've honed your negotiating skills. Well honey to do it right we're gonna need some more speakers. Long pause at this point followed by how many and how much total? You get the idea but it cost me an entire evening.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

JBrax said:


> I know first hand that it's an easier sell to the finance committee. It starts something like this…hey honey the receiver broke and now we need to buy another…ok how much? Well you know that Dolby Atmos thing I've been talking about? Yes, but how much to upgrade? Now here's where it gets dicey and is imperative that you've honed your negotiating skills. Well honey to do it right we're gonna need some more speakers. Long pause at this point followed by how many and how much total? You get the idea but it cost me an entire evening.


I do see that you have honed your powers of negotiation well, the force is strong with you.
The good news is I already have the speakers, I bought them some time ago by accident. The web page asked, "How Many Do You Want" and I then thought they were individual speakers, so I said "Four". Soooo now I have two additional pairs of speakers for the ceiling and I guess I just need a atmos AVR. I am not sure I have the power of the negotiation in my repertoire at this time....maybe if I can sell the Denon....hmmmm.:hide:


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Savjac said:


> I do see that you have honed your powers of negotiation well, the force is strong with you. The good news is I already have the speakers, I bought them some time ago by accident. The web page asked, "How Many Do You Want" and I then thought they were individual speakers, so I said "Four". Soooo now I have two additional pairs of speakers for the ceiling and I guess I just need a atmos AVR. I am not sure I have the power of the negotiation in my repertoire at this time....maybe if I can sell the Denon....hmmmm.:hide:


 Uh huh, I've used the oops ordered by accident line. Didn't you go to Axpona? If so you should have taken her and rushed her straight into the Atmos demo room. Just make sure she doesn't see the price of the gear.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Yup I did just go to Axpona and had a great time. I invited my lovely but she said no. She has no interest other than...it sounds kinda good. She is aware of prices, oh yeah, she sees the orders and the debit card statements. I may have to send the Denon in for repairs and then sell it as reconditioned, then look for something with atmos, geez new things all the time. 

Jbrax you are gonna get me in trouble :laugh2:


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Well, in all honesty I wouldn't be here either had my Onkyo kept fighting the good fight. I'm only nudging because I know the improvement really is remarkable. Did you get a chance to demo Atmos at Axpona and if so what did you think?


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

And it never hurts to rely on the old grease gun! Women always have something that they would love to have. The trick is to find out what they want during a nice dinner/wine. Get them talking about it & agree that it would be nice to have. Then offer to get it for her & throw in that little mention of needing a new AVR & it would be the perfect time to get both!!! Smooth sailing gents.:smile:


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

JBrax said:


> I know first hand that it's an easier sell to the finance committee. It starts something like this…hey honey the receiver broke and now we need to buy another…ok how much? Well you know that Dolby Atmos thing I've been talking about? Yes, but how much to upgrade? Now here's where it gets dicey and is imperative that you've honed your negotiating skills. Well honey to do it right we're gonna need some more speakers. Long pause at this point followed by how many and how much total? You get the idea but it cost me an entire evening.


We all should be paying attention to this guy!! :smile:

I'm wondering, do you take commission?


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

3dbinCanada said:


> We all should be paying attention to this guy!! :smile: I'm wondering, do you take commission?


 Hahaha. Oh and one last thing don't EVER, EVER, say I'm done after upgrading something. They will use that against you in future negotiations!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> Hahaha. Oh and one last thing don't EVER, EVER, say I'm done after upgrading something. They will use that against you in future negotiations!




Yep. This is truth.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

JBrax said:


> Hahaha. Oh and one last thing don't EVER, EVER, say I'm done after upgrading something. They will use that against you in future negotiations!


Yep. learned that the hard way.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

JBrax said:


> Well, in all honesty I wouldn't be here either had my Onkyo kept fighting the good fight. I'm only nudging because I know the improvement really is remarkable. Did you get a chance to demo Atmos at Axpona and if so what did you think?


No Sir, I did not check out atmos at Axpona, got tied up in other stuff. I did check out the 7.4 surround in the emotiva room and left very sad.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Savjac said:


> No Sir, I did not check out atmos at Axpona, got tied up in other stuff. I did check out the 7.4 surround in the emotiva room and left very sad.


 Hmm, why sad?


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

JBrax said:


> Hmm, why sad?


They had their electronics with Polk speakers and SVS subs and it sounded horrible while demoing the new Star Wars. This is the second year in a row wherein the surround system was really a let down. If I was reading the screen correctly they were playing soundtracks in Dolby PLll and music was mp3's. Not putting ones best foot forward.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Savjac said:


> They had their electronics with Polk speakers and SVS subs and it sounded horrible while demoing the new Star Wars. This is the second year in a row wherein the surround system was really a let down. If I was reading the screen correctly they were playing soundtracks in Dolby PLll and music was mp3's. Not putting ones best foot forward.


 That's surprising that they wouldn't know how to put their best foot forward.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Savjac said:


> They had their electronics with Polk speakers and SVS subs and it sounded horrible while demoing the new Star Wars. This is the second year in a row wherein the surround system was really a let down. If I was reading the screen correctly they were playing soundtracks in Dolby PLll and music was mp3's. Not putting ones best foot forward.




This is surprising. And sad indeed.


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## FargateOne (Mar 3, 2015)

JBrax said:


> Hahaha. Oh and one last thing don't EVER, EVER, say I'm done after upgrading something. They will use that against you in future negotiations!


Ho yes !


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Wow that's too bad, I thought the 4520 was a really good AVR.
You know the other forum has a huge thread dedicated to this AVR.
It might be a good idea to check it out if you have not already done so.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> This is surprising. And sad indeed.


I'm surprised an informed enthusiast didn't approach them to change their evil ways!


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Lumen said:


> I'm surprised an informed enthusiast didn't approach them to change their evil ways!


It is my belief Lumen that they know what their customer base wants to hear. I know their electronics sound very good and their subs were kind of good as well, albeit limited in their scope. 

However, I have attended their large suites at 2 Axpona shows now and I attended 2 times at their home office facilities. I attended all 4 of these events with someone and they said the same thing as me.
Why did they not bring their "A" game. The demos are usually mp3's and low bitrate videos... not necessarily the original disc. So I shake my head and move on, I am not a marketer and Big Dan is and has done quite well.

There are many displays at the big shows that do not bring the "A" game and provide lossy music for all to experience. Once again we shake out heads and move to the presenters that do show off their wares.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Perhaps they don't wish to disappoint. Should they demo their wares via higher/highest audio quality, the majority of listeners might wonder: "where's the beef?" once set loose on their own "B" game. I wager most won't know the difference or care (fodder for another thread). I agree that head shaking is in order.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Lumen said:


> Perhaps they don't wish to disappoint. Should they demo their wares via higher/highest audio quality, the majority of listeners might wonder: "where's the beef?" once set loose on their own "B" game. I wager most won't know the difference or care (fodder for another thread). I agree that head shaking is in order.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I imagine you are correct, I assume that, like us, we would be willing to show our shining star to others of similar interests. I guess this is why I do not show my wares.


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