# MrAngles' Tornado Shelter Theater



## MrAngles

Hey everybody, I've been reading the forums for a while to get ideas for my home theater in anticipation of my new house with unfinished basement. We're all moved in to the house and I'm ready to start the planning phase for finishing the basement. I want a home theater and an office down there and would like to make the most of my space (primarily for the theater). The problem space-wise is that there are two round metal support posts in the middle of the basement (indicated on the floorplans as brown dots). Here's a floorplan of the basement as it is now.







http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/729/basementoriginal.jpg

Here's what I've got planned so far for the layout:







http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/6318/basementoption1.jpg

The ceilings will be about 7 feet tall and I was hoping to do a 120"-140" 16x9 screen, and was hoping to two rows of seating, so a room 18 feet long seems like it would be on the small side. It occurred to me that I could move the back wall a few feet back, and put the post in some kind of pillar, which would allow me to move the seating back a bit, but I'm not sure how well that would work in real life having a pillar there.







http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/8568/basementoption2.jpg

I wanted to get some opinions from people who maybe have dealt with a similar issue, or at least people with projectors and a large screen to see what thoughts you you have on having a pillar in the room, or if there are other configurations you'd suggest. Let me know if you need any more information.


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## Tonto

Can't see your layout/plans.


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## MrAngles

Thanks for the heads up. I'm guessing maybe new members can't post images? I was able to add them as links though, let's see if those will work.


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## bmfjimbo80

With the last layout the only thing you would be able to do is add maybe a single seat on each side of the pole, But with the distance you are still limiting your screen size. I am currently running a 100" screen in my room at a viewing distance of 10ft and two of my friends has already said that its too close. Its final position will be at 12ft though which will be really good. Just can't put the seating back yet as I have the projector on a temporary shelving and not on the ceiling. So yea even in room layout 2 its going to be tight having two rows, real tight.


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## Prof.

I would go with plan 1..Having a post in the room limits seating placement and just doesn't look good..no matter what you do to it..
I would also suggest going for a smaller screen, if you want two rows of seating..
You need to locate your front row position first and then decide on what size screen looks best..


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## MrAngles

Yeah I hate pillars too, but I was hoping that having the pillar right behind the back row of seating and maybe having the projector hanging right next to it might make it not stick out so much. Putting seats on either side of it is an interesting idea that I hadn't considered, although that might make the post seem even more obtrusive. 

To be clear, I'm not planning on doing a full-scale fancy theater with a stage and crown molding around the whole ceiling or anything, my main concerns are comfort, and function in terms of decent acoustic treatments and soundproofing. The vast majority of the room's use will by for me by myself, until my kids turn into teenagers and bring all their friends over to wreck it, so maybe the second row of seating isn't that big of a deal.


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## Prof.

OK..The other way to go would be to use plan 2..Make your back row position your front row (Immediately in front of the pole..for now) and you can throw some cushions or bean bags in front of the seats for any additional viewers..
Then you can consider the larger size screen..


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## MrAngles

That's probably the way I'll go then. The other thing I thought of is that I could have two rows and have the back row my primary seats, but either way its something that can be adjusted after construction is done. In any case with one row or two it seems like shoving the seating all the way back to the pole is going to be the only way to use a really big screen in there, so as long as I can make the thing not seem too obtrusive I'm leaning towards plan 2. I was also thinking maybe I could integrate the pole into some kind of shelving or a counter/cabinet setup for snacks or something to make it look at least a little more like it's supposed to be there, rather than a ridiculous pole in the middle of the room. Anyone have any ideas on that?

Or does anyone think I should configure the basement differently to maximize the space? I don't really like the idea of walking through the theater to get into the office and utility room, but maybe that would work better than trying to deal with the pole in the room.


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## MrAngles

Post 5


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## MrAngles

Like this, I think is the only other option:







http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1781/basementoption3.jpg

4 times as many doors in the theater room, a window to deal with and I lose the resell value of the office being marketed as a bedroom, the theater room is actually a bit shorter than in option 2, but not having the pole there lets me put the seating back a bit more, and I think maybe I'll be a little further away from the furnace, which would be nice.

The other thing is, how far back does the projector need to be from a 120+ inch screen? Will the pole get in the way of that?


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## bmfjimbo80

Personally I would just stick with the first design and eliminate the second row of seating. You really just don't have the room for two rows. Most of the theater seating is 40" Deep, plus and additional 28" when the recliner is out for a total of 68" deep for each row of seating. Figure for 100" screen I would be a min. and I mean min. 10ft from the screen. So you have your 10ft plus 40" to the back of row one seating and you are at 13ft-4". Now add another 68" plus say another 6-12" for room btw back of row one and a fully reclinded second row and you are at 20ft to the back of the second row, which you do not have. I see most dual seating theaters with at least 30ft of length. Just my $.02

Now as far as the projector is concerned, each projector will have its own throw distance rating meaning some can be placed closer than others and produce the same size image or bigger. Use this calculator to play around with different models.

http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com/


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## MrAngles

I added couches based on the dimensions of my current reclining leather couch to the option 2 floorplan. Assuming it's 10 feet to the location of the person's head, I believe I have that in the first row, based on the option 2 floorplan, which allows 6 feet for the back row. I don't (at this time) plan to use segmented theater seats, my preference would be to use one reclining couch and one non-reclining couch, and if the view from the first row isn't entirely ridiculous, I'll probably keep both rows and use the back row primarily, with the front row just for overflow seating. If it's just impossible to watch from the front row location I'll just go with one row.



I also added a counter/shelf thing behind the couch where the pole is to the floorplan, which looks pretty appealing to me so far.

So let me ask this. If a 122" 16x9 screen is just way too big for two rows to deal with, would it make sense rather than going down to a 100" 16x9 screen, to go with a 128" 2.4:1 screen? if I'm doing the math right on that, it should give an image similar to a 100" screen for 16x9 content, but widescreen movies would end up being larger than on a 122" screen. Is the 10 foot viewing distance simply to keep you from having to turn your head to see the whole picture, or what?


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## kadijk

I like option 2 as you call it, except with one dedicated row of seating. This gives you a little more flexibility in viewing distance, and keeps the back wall away from the seats a good distance. Posts are a pain, but you can dress them up to become unobtrusive. Also check projector centrals website. They have a decent throw and screen size calculator, and it works based on make and model you choose. 
Also...you mentioned this is a new house? Any reason why the ceiling is only 7 ft?


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## MrAngles

kadijk said:


> Also...you mentioned this is a new house? Any reason why the ceiling is only 7 ft?


I couldn't tell you, it seems like all of the basements at the houses I looked at were around the same height, and most of them were new construction. I'm from Portland Oregon, where we don't really have basements, and just moved to Des Moines, so I didn't know if the ceiling height was unusual or not. The height from the cement to the joists is actually 7 feet 10 inches tall, but I wanted to estimate on the safe side for after putting a subfloor and carpet down plus a couple layers of drywall on clips. Hopefully the finished ceiling will be more like 7 1/2 feet tall.


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## bmfjimbo80

The viewing distances are based on either Dolby's or THX's recommended viewing distances. I have used the calculators to get an idea of where i should be. Now in real life to me, watching too close strains my eyes. THX actually recommends closer viewing distances than Dolby. 

On a side note, you can help out with the loss of even more headroom when installing the clips and hat channel on the ceiling by installing blocking in between the ceiling joists and running the hat channel parallel with the existing joists rather than perpendicular to them. You just keep the blocking up inside the cavity and have it so you leave enough space safely btw the drywall on the clips and the existing ceiling joists. I know of one guy on here that actually made it so he had 1/4" btw drywall and existing joists, which is cutting it very close with no room for error.


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## ALMFamily

bmfjimbo80 said:


> The viewing distances are based on either Dolby's or THX's recommended viewing distances. I have used the calculators to get an idea of where i should be. Now in real life to me, watching too close strains my eyes. THX actually recommends closer viewing distances than Dolby.
> 
> *On a side note, you can help out with the loss of even more headroom when installing the clips and hat channel on the ceiling by installing blocking in between the ceiling joists and running the hat channel parallel with the existing joists rather than perpendicular to them. You just keep the blocking up inside the cavity and have it so you leave enough space safely btw the drywall on the clips and the existing ceiling joists. I know of one guy on here that actually made it so he had 1/4" btw drywall and existing joists, which is cutting it very close with no room for error.*


This is what I did - although I went for 1/2" instead of a 1/4" as I was not that daring. It was actually pretty easy and saved a few inches in height.


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## MrAngles

bmfjimbo80 said:


> On a side note, you can help out with the loss of even more headroom when installing the clips and hat channel on the ceiling by installing blocking in between the ceiling joists and running the hat channel parallel with the existing joists rather than perpendicular to them. You just keep the blocking up inside the cavity and have it so you leave enough space safely btw the drywall on the clips and the existing ceiling joists. I know of one guy on here that actually made it so he had 1/4" btw drywall and existing joists, which is cutting it very close with no room for error.


That's a great idea, I'll definitely be doing that now. On the subject of soundproofing, does it make sense to keep the walls separate from the ceiling in some way? My number one soundproofing concern is sound transfer through the ceiling (in both directions) and I have this idea in my head that I could build walls where the framing doesn't actually connect to the ceiling joists so sound won't transfer through the walls into the ceiling. I haven't seen anything about it online though, so I'm guessing there's a fundamental flaw with the idea that either makes it ineffective or structurally unsound.

I should probably mention at this point that I've barely done any construction, I'm more of a electrical guy, the extent of my dealings with sheetrock has been in running wires behind it and repairing the many holes I've made.


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## ALMFamily

Are you planning to do 2 layers on the walls and ceiling - either OSB/drywall or 2x drywall? If so, that is what I did as well and I can provide a bit more detail on how I managed it.


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## MrAngles

Definitely planning on doing two layers on the ceiling and the wall of the mechanical room, I'm not sure about the outside walls or the wall to the office yet.


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## ALMFamily

Well, the way I handled it was to put up my OSB on the walls first. When I came to a corner, I would put up one side and stop it about 1/2" short of the stud (they were screwed to the clips so no need to go all the way to the stud) and then I butted the other side up to the 1st piece of OSB. I made sure to cut the height of them so that they stopped where the ceiling channel started. Then, when I did the ceiling, I butted them up to the wall OSB.

When all was done, I used the acoustical sealant on all my joints. So, in essence I created a new "corner" for the room that was floating about 1/2" or so from the stud corner.

When I did the second layer of drywall, I made sure to do the corners in the same order so that I did not create a straight seam from room to studs - it ended up looking like this:


___________
__________|
********||
********||
********||
********||

* - inside the room

Then, I sealed the joints again.

I hope this helps - if I did not explain it well enough, let me know and I will see if I can locate a picture.


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## Prof.

MrAngles said:


> So let me ask this. If a 122" 16x9 screen is just way too big for two rows to deal with, would it make sense rather than going down to a 100" 16x9 screen, to go with a 128" 2.4:1 screen? if I'm doing the math right on that, it should give an image similar to a 100" screen for 16x9 content, but widescreen movies would end up being larger than on a 122" screen.
> Is the 10 foot viewing distance simply to keep you from having to turn your head to see the whole picture, or what?


That's what I would recommend..With a 2.35:1 screen you are able to have a large screen without the height problem or your seating placement problems..
You can actually sit closer to a scope screen than a 16:9 screen..which would alleviate your seating problems..and give you plenty of room for two row seating..

Our eyes are better suited to viewing images from side to side.. rather than up and down..
I sit 9' from an 8'6" wide scope screen and don't have any problem in taking in the whole image..


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## kadijk

Joe, good system. The clips and hat channel make it so the interior sheathing of the room doesnt actually touch the structure. I would be tempted to go one step further and actually build the wall approx 3/4" low and attach it to the ceiling framing with a long screw, maintaining the gap, so the only thing touching between wall and ceiling is the screws here and there. Not sure if it's necessary, but in my mind it would help. 
Mr Angles...7.5 ish feet seems like a reasonable ceiling. Should give you enough room to hang a projector and still walk under it. Happy planning


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## MrAngles

Ok so you CAN leave the walls detached from the ceiling. Do you use clips of some kind to keep the walls from wobbling, or just let them "float"? Do you ever have to re-apply the sealant due to the house settling? 

This also brings up a couple other questions I had. Is there a particular advantage in using OSB vs two layers of sheetrock, financially or otherwise, and is there an advantage of using clips on the walls vs staggered studs (or vice versa)?


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## MrAngles

Prof. said:


> That's what I would recommend..With a 2.35:1 screen you are able to have a large screen without the height problem or your seating placement problems..
> You can actually sit closer to a scope screen than a 16:9 screen..which would alleviate your seating problems..and give you plenty of room for two row seating..
> 
> Our eyes are better suited to viewing images from side to side.. rather than up and down..
> I sit 9' from an 8'6" wide scope screen and don't have any problem in taking in the whole image..


That's what I was hoping you would say!

Well now I have a whole other mess to deal with. Luckily dealing with a CiH setup can wait until after construction.


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## MrAngles

Ok here's another thing. Since space is a premium, and since I'll be doing a 2.40:1 screen anyway, that kind of rules out doing a false wall and an acoustically transparent screen, so I need to figure out where to put my center channel. I have an Acoustic Research AR2C which is 12" deep. Should I build some kind of wood-framed alcove in the wall for it below the screen, so it doesn't stick out so far? I haven't seen that done. If I do that, should I try to insulate the alcove from the rest of the wall somehow?


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## MrAngles

By the way thanks so much for all the information, you guys are great.


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## kadijk

Others more knowledgeable should add to this, but my understanding is that you should not enclose your speakers in a cabinet of any sort. This creates harmful reflections. How about simply placing it on a stand of some sort. You could even make one so that it is angled up to face the seating position more directly. 

As for the walls, if you use hat channel and clips, you should be able to fasten the walls right to the ceiling with no negative results.


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## MrAngles

I just don't like it sticking out so far. It looked bad enough with my wall mounted plasma screen, with a projection screen I can't imagine how ridiculous it would look. 

I'll try to look for some pics of fp setups with large center channels and see if there's anything I like.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Ok so you CAN leave the walls detached from the ceiling. Do you use clips of some kind to keep the walls from wobbling, or just let them "float"? Do you ever have to re-apply the sealant due to the house settling?
> 
> This also brings up a couple other questions I had. Is there a particular advantage in using OSB vs two layers of sheetrock, financially or otherwise, and is there an advantage of using clips on the walls vs staggered studs (or vice versa)?


Yes - there are a couple choices for clips - Ted and John at The Soundproofing Company (one of the site sponsors) are who I worked with and are extremely knowledgeable and good to work with - I went with WhisperClips. Long story short - the clips get screwed to your studs and then the res channel locks into the clip. When you hang your OSB / drywall, you run the screws into the channel. If you take a look at their site, they have a few examples so you can see them in action. Or, you can take the plunge and read my build thread (36 pages and counting :dumbcrazy as I tried to document as much as I could and include pictures.

As far as the sealant, it does not dry hard - it is pliable so I think it will allow for some shifting.

2 layers of drywall is probably cheaper - at least it was by me. The reason I went with OSB as opposed to 2x drywall is that if I missed the channel with a screw or want to hang something on the walls, OSB will hold scads better. As for staggered stud, I am not certain. It seems to me you would still need to decouple the walls from the ceiling somehow - staggered stud would give you the dampening zone between rooms, but I am not sure about sound hitting your studs and going up. Hopefully, someone that looked into doing that can chime in.




MrAngles said:


> By the way thanks so much for all the information, you guys are great.


No worries - we are here to help!



kadijk said:


> Others more knowledgeable should add to this, but my understanding is that you should not enclose your speakers in a cabinet of any sort. This creates harmful reflections. How about simply placing it on a stand of some sort. You could even make one so that it is angled up to face the seating position more directly.
> 
> As for the walls, if you use hat channel and clips, you should be able to fasten the walls right to the ceiling with no negative results.





MrAngles said:


> I just don't like it sticking out so far. It looked bad enough with my wall mounted plasma screen, with a projection screen I can't imagine how ridiculous it would look.
> 
> I'll try to look for some pics of fp setups with large center channels and see if there's anything I like.


Kadijk has it right - if you build something around it like an alcove, you will have really odd reflections to deal with. Now, I am not sure what speakers you have or how dark you plan on going for the HT, but I am also limited for room depth and could not do a baffle wall / AT screen. I think with all the lights off in a dark room you really will not notice your mains or CC. Just my opinion.......


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Long story short - the clips get screwed to your studs and then the res channel locks into the clip. When you hang your OSB / drywall, you run the screws into the channel.
> 
> As for staggered stud, I am not certain. It seems to me you would still need to decouple the walls from the ceiling somehow - staggered stud would give you the dampening zone between rooms, but I am not sure about sound hitting your studs and going up. Hopefully, someone that looked into doing that can chime in.


OK sorry for the confusion, I'm aware of the clips to decouple drywall from studs, I thought in your previous post you were responding to my post about a wall with a gap between the wall and the ceiling joists, to avoid transfer of vibration. It sounds like that's probably not something that people do. 



ALMFamily said:


> Kadijk has it right - if you build something around it like an alcove, you will have really odd reflections to deal with. Now, I am not sure what speakers you have or how dark you plan on going for the HT, but I am also limited for room depth and could not do a baffle wall / AT screen. I think with all the lights off in a dark room you really will not notice your mains or CC. Just my opinion.......


Yeah I suppose you're right. So what do people with kids do? I worry about putting it on a stand, are there stands that can be anchored into the floor and secure the speaker so it won't fall over when ran into by a crazy five-year old?


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> OK sorry for the confusion, I'm aware of the clips to decouple drywall from studs, I thought in your previous post you were responding to my post about a wall with a gap between the wall and the ceiling joists, to avoid transfer of vibration. It sounds like that's probably not something that people do.


Ah, sorry, my mistake. As far as I have seen, no one has attempted to do something like that.



MrAngles said:


> Yeah I suppose you're right. So what do people with kids do? I worry about putting it on a stand, are there stands that can be anchored into the floor and secure the speaker so it won't fall over when ran into by a crazy five-year old?


Well, I plan on strapping my kids into chairs so....... :bigsmile:

I jest of course - I have not looked yet, but if I find something I will post it.


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## MrAngles

Heh, the 6th result in a google search for '"center channel stand" for people with kids' is my original question on highdefdigest from 4 years ago. Turns out that the speaker stand that appeals to me the most today is the same one I was looking at back then, so that's good to know at least, but not a lot of help beyond that. I may end up putting it on this 20" tall tv stand to start with and see how things go with that, then if I don't like it and the remote location of the room proves to deter random child attacks I'll look into a real speaker stand that looks nicer.

Here's my previous center channel setup, for reference:














I never was happy with the brackets, but using four brackets was the only way to keep the thing from bouncing around due to the weight and depth, without using ugly industrial style brackets. On the plus side, I got used to it, and it was very successful at keeping kids from knocking it over.


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## MrAngles

Another question, for a basement subfloor is DriCore the way to go? Anybody have any experience with the stuff or a competing product that they'd like to share?


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## ALMFamily

LOL - too funny. I am planning on doing this on my floor and was looking at the video just this morning. My line of thinking here - it is incredibly easy to install, provides an additional absorption layer over a concrete floor and, most importantly, gives me a sense of comfort that the money I invested in building my HT will not be wasted because of a water leak and the subsequent water damage. I checked the price at my local HD a couple days ago - it was $5.75 per 2x2 square. Seems like a good investment of @$500 and a day's worrk IMO.


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## MrAngles

Yeah $500 wouldn't be so bad. If I'm doing my math right though my floor's going to end up costing me about $1025 after the 10% off coupon at Lowes that came in my USPS address change form packet. I do benefit I think from the recent experience of installing a tongue-and-groove laminate floor at my rental house, so I'm slightly excited about the idea of using that experience. One thing I learned that i will definitely apply: buy kneepads.


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## ALMFamily

Exactly right - I did that flooring at my house as well and it looks a bit easier than that was.

As far as the cost, it is not my money, but even at $1000 I would probably do it. I have had water in my basement before and if I would get it in the HT room after it is done, it would cost far more than that to replace the carpeting and anything else that might have been sitting in an affected area. Just my .02.


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## MrAngles

Makes sense to me, I do worry about water damage, especially being new to owning a basement. One thing that particularly worries me with the house being new construction, how can I be sure that settling won't cause leaks or something? Should I really be waiting a year or so before starting to finish the basement before I just assume everything is fine down there?


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## ALMFamily

Tough one there. When we put an addition on our house, the guy that poured the concrete told me that it is nigh on impossible to keep concrete from cracking here (I am in WI) due to the temperature swings. He said the trick was to pour it so you knew where it would crack.

I am by no means an expert, but I guess if it was my house, I would wait through one winter to see before I started the project. You are in Iowa, right? 

Hopefully, someone else that ran into this will chime in here.


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## MrAngles

Yep I live in Iowa now, tornados and whatnot.

Well, my wife told me she'd buy me the dricore for my birthday next month, so that's awesome. I think I'm going to get ahold of the builders and see what they say about moisture and finishing the basement right away. A few of the new construction houses I looked at around here already came with finished basements, so I'm guessing there must be some way to guarantee that there won't be leaks for a while, I dunno.

Here's another question about dricore. I'll be putting the flooring down, then setting all the walls on top of it, so the dricore will be sticking out a bit into the mechanical room out from under the walls. What if the drain in the mechanical room plugs or something, water heater leak happens, sump pump fails or something like that, should I leave it so the water backs up under the dricore, or try to seal the mechanical room in some way?


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## ALMFamily

I think you will need to leave it open. If you seal it, you would defeat the purpose of the dricore as there would not be a path for air to flow under and dry any moisture under it.


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## MrAngles

That makes sense. So I just started looking through your build thread, which seems like it will be very helpful to me. I was planning on doing two layers of drywall between the ceiling joists (the room directly above is the family room with the kids bouncing around and my wife watching her stories), did you do two layers or just one? How is it working for you? What kind of acoustical sealant did you use? I've got some hvac ducting and a vent up there already, did you have that issue? Should I take that down, put drywall up then put it back?


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> That makes sense. So I just started looking through your build thread, which seems like it will be very helpful to me. I was planning on doing two layers of drywall between the ceiling joists (the room directly above is the family room with the kids bouncing around and my wife watching her stories), did you do two layers or just one?


I just did one layer. Since my ceilings are slightly under 8', I needed to put 2x4 blocking up in my joist cavaties so that when I ran my WhisperClips and res channel, I did not lose so much height in my room. That really cut into that space. As it was, the insulation was slightly compressed where those blocks were.



MrAngles said:


> How is it working for you?


Really well actually - after I finished off each part (drywall between, OSB layer, GG/drywall layer), I had the kids run around and stomp on the floors. I could notice an improvement after each layer. Now, they can yell at me and I don't hear it sometimes.



MrAngles said:


> What kind of acoustical sealant did you use?


I used the one made by the Green Glue people. The Soundproofing company carries it.



MrAngles said:


> I've got some hvac ducting and a vent up there already, did you have that issue? Should I take that down, put drywall up then put it back?


I sure did have that - I had ducting running to other parts of the house - I am not using my furnace to heat / cool that room though. Let me ask you this - how are you planning to heat / cool your room?


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## MrAngles

Well there are vents already hooked up in each of the room's that I have planned, I'll definitely be using those. I'm not sure yet if they are on a separate zone, or if not, if I can put them on a separate zone. The 1st and 2nd floor are set up on separate zones already.


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## MrAngles

Ok I talked to my builder, and he said that since the foundation was laid before this past winter, and there are no leaks now (as evident by the ridiculous rainstorms we've had without any moisture showing up in the basement), I should be fine to start construction whenever I am ready, so that's good.

On the negative side however, I looked a little closer at what I've got in the ceiling down there, and I have some concerns.








So I have NG lines, rigid ducts and I don't know what those PVC pipes are coming from the furnace, maybe exhaust/air intake? All below the joists on the wrong side of the support poles.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Ok I talked to my builder, and he said that since the foundation was laid before this past winter, and there are no leaks now (as evident by the ridiculous rainstorms we've had without any moisture showing up in the basement), I should be fine to start construction whenever I am ready, so that's good.


Good news!



MrAngles said:


> On the negative side however, I looked a little closer at what I've got in the ceiling down there, and I have some concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I have NG lines, rigid ducts and I don't know what those PVC pipes are coming from the furnace, maybe exhaust/air intake? All below the joists on the wrong side of the support poles.


Yes, that is exactly what the PVC pipes are. I am having a hard time visualizing that picture with your layout - is the picture taken from where the theater room would be?


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I am having a hard time visualizing that picture with your layout - is the picture taken from where the theater room would be?


Sorry, yeah that pic is taken facing directly away from the screen wall towards what will be the back of the theater room. You can see the two support poles in the background, one on the left next to the furnace, and the other in front of the window in the picture. Maybe two feet closer to the camera (between the support poles and the screen wall) is the rigid duct, running from one side of the theater room to the other, and another couple feet beyond that is another rigid duct, extending a foot or so into the theater room before right angling up.

The wall between the electrical room and the theater is planned to be (according to the picture) directly to the right of the support pole on the left.

Hopefully that makes sense, maybe I'll try labeling and adding wall outlines to the picture.


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## bmfjimbo80

No biggie. You just have to build a soffit around them.


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## ALMFamily

OK, now I understand the picture. And, as B stated, you can just build a soffit around the trunk in the back. As far as the runs coming off that trunk that would pass over your theater, these are ones I would switch to flex duct.

The other trunk that sticks out a foor or two is an air return. I would run a soffit along that wall to enclose that as well. In order to keep left / right symmetry, you would want to build a soffit on the opposite wall as well. Some suggestions for "dressing up" a soffit are a light tray or you could even potentially do a star ceiling.

I would construct the soffits before you do your 2 layers and GG so that you can do it around the HVAC as well - that will help isolate the sound from them.


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## MrAngles

No concerns about having a soffit directly above the rear seating, and in front of the projector?


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## ALMFamily

How far is it from the front edge of that trunk to the screen wall? And, would the soffit be over the point where someone was standing to sit in the second row?


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> How far is it from the front edge of that trunk to the screen wall? And, would the soffit be over the point where someone was standing to sit in the second row?


I'll have to do some measuring tonight, but based on estimates and my existing floorplan I'd say about 15 and a half feet from the front edge of the trunk to the screen wall. It's not over where people would be standing, it's pretty much exactly over where your head hits the cushion on the couch (again, based on estimates).

Also I just remembered that the support poles connect to two 2x10s that are under the ceiling joists (you can see this in the picture). It seems like I should just make it all one giant soffit, or ideally, move the duct directly behind the 2x10s.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> I'll have to do some measuring tonight, but based on estimates and my existing floorplan I'd say about 15 and a half feet from the front edge of the trunk to the screen wall. It's not over where people would be standing, it's pretty much exactly over where your head hits the cushion on the couch (again, based on estimates).
> 
> Also I just remembered that the support poles connect to two 2x10s that are under the ceiling joists (you can see this in the picture). It seems like I should just make it all one giant soffit, or ideally, move the duct directly behind the 2x10s.


If it is at where the head hits the cushion, you should be fine. Have you already purchased a projector?

That is what I was thinking - one giant soffit. I suppose you could move the trunk, but as it looks to be a main trunk with feeds coming from it, I would have to wonder how pricey that would be. It may be more cost effective to build the soffit and save that added money for another part of the project.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> If it is at where the head hits the cushion, you should be fine. Have you already purchased a projector?
> 
> That is what I was thinking - one giant soffit. I suppose you could move the trunk, but as it looks to be a main trunk with feeds coming from it, I would have to wonder how pricey that would be. It may be more cost effective to build the soffit and save that added money for another part of the project.


I do want to get the most bang for my buck, and ultimately it's function that will win out over fashion, so as long as no one thinks there will be problems with that plan, it sounds good to me. The other option could be to just lower the ceiling over entire back 6.5 feet, not sure if that will look better or worse.

I haven't even started looking at projectors yet, I figured I'd deal with that once I know for sure what the limitations of the room will be. It seems like mounting the projector next to the support pole, under the soffit (or lowered ceiling) over the bar counter is what I'll end up doing. That way the soffit and support pole won't get in the way.

About the PVC pipe, would it weaken the joist too much if I moved the upward elbow one section over then punched through the joist, so it would be contained in the side wall soffit?


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## ALMFamily

Good call on the projector - you can mount it in front of the soffit if need be so you could avoid the soffit altogether. You would just need to make sure to flush mount it so no one conked their head on it. It would just be one of your parameters when shopping - projecting from @13'. 

As far as cutting joists, that is tricky business. You definitely do not want to cut a chunk out of the bottom as you would completely weaken it. 

That said, I actually did move my air return. What I ended up doing was figuring out the size of my return and drilling holes through the middle of the joist (like I would if I was running conduit through studs) to the same degree as the air return so I maintained the same air flow. Just be mindful that you do not want to cut the holes too close together and you should be OK.


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## ALMFamily

Oops - you meant the PVC pipe running toward the posts. How big is it? About 3"?


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## MrAngles

Yeah I think it's 3", that elbow just pops out outside of where the soffits would be, it seems like a waste to leave it sticking out there. The other thing I was thinking is maybe not doing full side wall soffits, maybe something angling out from the rear soffit that hides the hvac trunk enough just to cover the air return, meeting the side wall, unless that would cause acoustical issues.


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## MrAngles

Here's an illustration of what I mean, the white section would be the soffit:










It would probably cost less, and maybe makes the room look like a spaceship, which is always a plus...


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## ALMFamily

Bryan would be able to respond better than I, but I think that introducing angles would make dealing with reflection points later much more difficult. You would more than likely want to stay as square as possible. I would suggest putting a post in the acoustics forums with that photo to get Bryan's opinion.

If the pipe is 3", you might be able to cut a hole in the middle of your joist to run it through there - you would just want to make sure you got as close to the middle as possible.


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## kadijk

I've been listening in to this conversation, as it were, and I'd be careful about cutting joists, as has been said, and careful with moving those vent pipes around without an HVAC guy looking at it. They are installed with slope to allow moisture escape, usually to the outside, and any moisture return to the source can potentially do damage. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'd have a pro look at doing it though. My 2cents.


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## ALMFamily

+1 - moving a return is one thing. Moving pipes as K said is definitely something I would be uncomfortable doing.


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## zman

I was just reading about the moisture issue, and my moisture in my basement formed on the walls, not necessarily on the floor.

I'm definitely no expert, but use some kind of sealer or you'll be dealing with mold later on.


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## MrAngles

The house came with vapor barrier insulation on the walls already, so I kind of just assumed they were fine. What sealer did you use on your basement?


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## fax6202

I felt a lot more safe sealing the walls with DryLok, and then attaching 1.5" rigid foam board insulation to the walls. This may have been overkill but according to Building Science http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0202-basement-insulation-systems this is far and away the best way to protect your basement from moisture issues, aside from treating the foundation from the outside . The way I understand it, the sealant prevents the moisture coming from the outside, the rigid foam board both insulates and prevents condensation on the wall from a warm room and a cool wall; at least as far as from the inside. Treating the outside exterior walls is very costly to do after the house has been built. Also, make sure all of your gutters are free and clear and the water flows away from the foundation, and there should be some pitch from the walls outward.

Like I said, this was probably overkill, I already had a dry basement...but I sleep better knowing I have protected X amount of dollars on the HT and the rest of the basement


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## MrAngles

I've seen a lot of conflicting opinions about DryLok, mostly having to do with the idea that sealing the moisture inside of the concrete is a bad idea for an entire basement. So far the concept that I've been going with is that with a combination of DriCore flooring and vapor barrier faced insulation installed on the walls with breathing room between the insulation and the studs for the finished walls, allows the concrete to breathe, but keeps the moisture from getting inside the finished area. I'm up to page five on the link you provided (thanks for that by the way), but it seems so far like they have the same concerns, that the moisture does have to get through it somehow. One person said that with Drylok they found mold growing underneath the paint after a while, so that concerns me.


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## fax6202

if there was moisture beneath the drylock then I would have to assume that the surface of the wall was not prepped properly. Again, this is probably all overkill, but I would rather go in that direction. You are spot on about the gap. I have a 2.5" gap between the rigid foam board and the framed wall. Airflow is so important. I guess there is no perfect way to do it. I to saw the good and bad comments with drylock. Every product will have some bad rap or two if you look into it enough.

This is another good read concerning vapor barriers http://www.nlcpr.com/Mold.php


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## MrAngles

The confusing thing to me about that link is it calls for sealing the concrete, but also allowing moisture to escape through to the finished area. "This satisfies statute while allowing the moisture that will eventually build up inside the wall to escape to the heated interior." What exactly does rigid foam insulation do that insulation in a vapor barrier doesn't? Does the rigid foam allow moisture to seep through without being susceptible to mold somehow?


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## MrAngles

It would be great if I could avoid spending an extra $500 on insulation when I already have vapor barrier stuff up. That said, I don't want any mustiness down there. I wish there was a specific widely known method that everyone agreed was best, this stuff kind of makes my head hurt.

Fax, how long has your basement been finished? What did you use on the floors?

Has anyone else here used other methods that they wouldn't recommend, that have resulted in mustiness or mold over time?


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## fax6202

My basement is still under construction. My brother and I finished his basement about 3 years ago and went the same way. Its very dry and with a comfortable temp year around. Both of our basements are completely below grade. Of course any part of a basement above grade you dont need to worry about. As with my brothers floor we used DriCore/OSB as a subfloor. I am trying to save a bit of money here and decided to go with Delta-FL/OSB. I, like you had concerns about spending the extra money and I may have been just fine with the fiberglass batts/vapor barrier. But I didnt want to take any chances whatsoever. It costs a whole lot more to remediate mold after the basement is finished and the money I spent to do this is nothing compared to the possible damage costs. Additionally my homeowners policy only covers damages, not mold remediation. You should check into that as well. I also bought an Aprilaire dehumidifier, the are expensive but are some of the best you can use. Again, budget was an isssue but i just bit the bullet so I know that the basement is as protected as i can make it.
If you do decide to take this route make sure to use Extruded expanded polystyrene (XEPS). Extruded polystyrene has excellent resistance to moisture absorption. To prevent air infiltration, make sure that the boards are tight and the seams are calked or taped with something like Tyvek tape. If the assembly is constructed correctly, the inside surface of the foam board stays warm enough to keep water vapor in its gaseous state long enough for it to escape. Rigid foam is actually a vapor retarder not a barrier.

Good luck on whichever path you decide. If you do go with this method and you have any questions I might be able to answer them.


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## MrAngles

So with the dricore, did you install the insulation from floor to ceiling first, then put dricore in with a 1/4" expansion spacing between it and the insulation? If you left any areas of the basement unfinished, did you use rigid foam in those areas as well? Is 1.5" the best thickness to use you think? Sorry for the barrage of questions, I appreciate your input.

I saw this video last night where a lady constructed an exterior wall by putting up Owens Corning rigid foam, screwing in furring strips over the seams, and screwing drywall directly to the furring strips as if they were studs. If that works it would save a bunch of time and money and give me some extra space down there as well. Since there wouldn't be any studs attached to the ceiling, it could help in sound transfer as well, I'm thinking. I doubt my basement needs more insulation than that anyway, considering how hot it's been outside and how cool it's been down there.

Finally, what's the deal with dehumidifiers? Do all basements need them? Where do you put them in a finished basement? Aren't they redundant when you already have central air?


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## fax6202

"So with the dricore, did you install the insulation from floor to ceiling first, then put dricore in with a 1/4" expansion spacing between it and the insulation? If you left any areas of the basement unfinished, did you use rigid foam in those areas as well? Is 1.5" the best thickness to use you think? Sorry for the barrage of questions, I appreciate your input."

I installed the rigid foam to the walls first, the gap between the bottom plate and the wall is left untouched. No subfloor. that is fine because the gap behind the wall allows that are to breath and there will not be a floor installed on that small area. The areas that i left unfinished are not treated at all. The walls are completely exposed so if there was any moisture can be addressed. I used the 1.5" which is the minimum suggested from Building Science.

"I saw this video last night where a lady constructed an exterior wall by putting up Owens Corning rigid foam, screwing in furring strips over the seams, and screwing drywall directly to the furring strips as if they were studs. If that works it would save a bunch of time and money and give me some extra space down there as well. Since there wouldn't be any studs attached to the ceiling, it could help in sound transfer as well, I'm thinking. I doubt my basement needs more insulation than that anyway, considering how hot it's been outside and how cool it's been down there."

I floated that idea as well but decided two things: I wanted more space for airflow behind the finished wall and I needed the framed wall to run the ungodly amount of a/v wiring that i did and the gangboxes associated with them. I figured the few inches you would save is really not that much of an impact. It wasnt for my room anyways.

"Finally, what's the deal with dehumidifiers? Do all basements need them? Where do you put them in a finished basement? Aren't they redundant when you already have central air?"

No you dont absolutely need one if you have a relatively dry basement. But I wanted my basement to be very dry. My entire basement is below grade and i cannot stand any kind of damp/humid area. I have an Aprilaire 1750 that I can use as a stand-alone unit or i can also tie it into my duct work and it will work for the whole house. to answer your question, yes the AC does dehumidify, but not close to the level that a dehumidifier will especially the one that I have. My basement is 2200 sq/ft and it is rated for much more than that. Depending on how your duct work is run, you may be fine as long as you have enough registers and you are getting good airflow throughout. I drain mine right into the sump pump so there is no having to empty it out. I also built a space in the closet to house the unit along with the sump pump. And my AC is in the unfinished portion of my basement so i can just roll it over there if I want to tie it in to the rest of the house.


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## MrAngles

That's a good point about the wiring. So what I'm still not following is how the rigid foam stays up against the wall if there's a gap between it and the studs. Also, I didn't realize you leave a gap between the bottom of the insulation and the floor, I assume that's for airflow, how big of a gap is that?

Another unrelated question, but how does everybody feel about drop ceilings? I'm considering doing them in the room with the A/V equipment at least, and possibly the entire hallway and office, to allow access later for wiring to rooms on the main level, and for access to the conduits to the theater room. Are there any drop ceilings (or other options that allow that kind of access) that don't look like they belong in a office building?


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## fax6202

I explained this wrong. The foam board is fitted from the basement floor to the joists above. I meant the gap is from the bottom plate of the framed wall to the insulation. I have heard of some nailing the foam board, but that is not a good idea IMO, I used Loctite foam adhesive. Its made for the foam board so it will not eat through like liquid nail. I applied the adhesive pretty heavily and used 2x8s leaning against the wall to keep it frim until it set. So what you do is adher to the wall and tap any seams with Tyvek tape. I also spray insulated any gap at the bottom or anywhere the board werent tight together. Attached is a picture where you can see a little bit of it. But you definitely have to tape the seams. I knocked it all out in one day. Its relatively easy to do. If you want some more detailed pics PM me your email address and i'll send you some. 

I also choose to use a drop ceiling in the HT. I went with Black Stratford ceiling tiles from Celume. They look really good and I have full acess to everything in the ceiling.


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## MrAngles

Ahh, that makes sense.

Those ceiling tiles look great for a theater! I don't imagine that they would be great for sound isolation, though, which is a pretty big factor for me in the actual theater room. Did you order those online, or get them locally?


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## fax6202

I got them at http://www.wishihadthat.com/black-ceiling-tile.aspx 

I have not installed them yet, they are still in the box. And acoustics will be a problem. I havent dug to much into it yet but I will probably find a way to treat in between the joists and at the very least insulate heavily. I am not at that stage in my build just yet but it was defintely a concern i had and still have.


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## MrAngles

Where does everybody buy green glue and isolation clips from? It turns out I have a Kinzler Construction Services half a mile away from my house in Ankeny that supposedly carries Green Glue, but it didn't say anything about acoustical sealant or clips, which would be nice to get locally if possible. Does soundproofingcompany.com charge tax?


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## ALMFamily

I believe so - and shipping. And, they were still less expensive than my local provider as well as providing several very helpful PDF's for construction tips / suggestions.


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## MrAngles

Alright Fax, after going over all the information you posted I've decided to go with rigid foam insulation. I'm really leaning towards using the furring strip method rather than erecting a separate wall though, my left wall won't need any wiring in it, and the front wall will only need speaker wire and possibly an IR sensor. My theory is that it would cut costs in the wall construction itself, but also in soundproofing it, as since there wouldn't be any studs making contact with the ceiling joists there would be no reason to use double drywall, green glue or whisper clips. Bypassing those soundproofing steps and keeping the wall itself thin should save me a few inches as well, and space is at a premium down there.

What's your take on this method, other than the in-wall space limitations? I'm just wondering first off if rigid foam insulation ends up having any condensation on the inside surface which will seep into the wood since it would be directly touching it, and also wouldn't screwing the wood into the insulation compromise it somehow? Also, is this method structurally sound? I can't tell for sure from the demo video but I'm assuming that the furring strips are just screwed into the insulation and not through it into the concrete, so what's the possibility of the screws coming loose due to vibration or something and the weight of the drywall?

Finally, is there any reason I can't cut up the existing blanket insulation I have on the walls and use it in the interior walls and ceiling, to kind of take the sting out of replacing all this brand new free insulation I have?


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## MrAngles

Another question, before I put the Dri-Core down, for everybody who puts electrical outlets in their risers, how do you run the wire from the riser to the panel? I assume it's not directly under the carpet...


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## ALMFamily

I ran mine through the studs via conduit and drilled a hole just large enough for the wiring to come through the OSB / drywall. Since the riser will pretty much butt up right against the wall, the hole will not be visible and then I will drill a small hole in the riser to allow the wiring to pass through to the first outlet.


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## MrAngles

Ah, I wasn't thinking about having the riser going all the way up to the wall, interesting.


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## untuned

Mr Angles......don't mean to side track your project any but, did you find out anything with Kinzler Cons.??

I'm a little curious as I'm starting to plan out my HT and I live in Ankeny as well.


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## MrAngles

I have not stopped by yet. The fact that they aren't open on weekends has been a hurdle for me so far.


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## untuned

ahh i see


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## untuned

Sorry if this has already been considered or ruled out but, have you thought of going with 2x6 walls so you could put the pole inside the walls?

I am also having a home built in Bondurant and the builder told me they could space the poles a little closer or farther apart....to a certain degree without affecting the floor structure......just a thought.. I could be way off base here


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## MrAngles

My original plan was to put the pole in the rear wall, but doing that doesn't give as much space as I'd like. I don't know about moving it, that makes me a little uncomfortable. I'd talk to the builders about that possibility, but I'm having trouble getting them to respond to me lately.


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## untuned

sorry about the poor comunication with the builder......they shuold be able to advise on the minimal and maximum span between poles


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## MrAngles

Hey since you live in the area, what's you're take on flooding? I heard there was flooding in Ankeny in 2010 or 2011?


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## untuned

yeah there was some flooding from the heavy snow melt..... Nobody I know in the area got water in the basement. Most of the home builders around here are spraying a thick rubber compound on the outer walls of the basemants before they pack dirt around them.... all the other homes I've looked at in the area haven't had water in the basement. At least I couldn't see any signs of water damage.


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## MrAngles

Thanks, that's good to know.


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## MrAngles

Check out what I found in the sheetrock section in Menards on Delaware in Ankeny:










At $13.20 per tube that's $158.40 for 12, then throw in the 11% rebate deal they're doing right now and I highly doubt we'll see a better deal than that. Just the fact that you can locally buy single tubes if you run out or return any extras makes me feel a lot better about buying the stuff.


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## untuned

You're right....that is definitely a really good deal for a local find. I can't tell you how many times I've walked past it in there too. Gonna have to check it out sometime this week. Maybe get a couple tubes and pick up more a little at a time.


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## MrAngles

The question now I guess is how much shipping is on the gallons of green glue. If I'm doing my math correctly, at 2 28 oz tubes per 4'x8' sheet of drywall, I'll need 77 tubes for two layers of drywall on two walls and the ceiling, plus two layers between the ceiling joists. So that's $905 after the 11% rebate at Menards, or four 5-gallon pails and a speedloader for $890 before shipping @ $215 per pail, plus that gives me a ton of extra green glue. I guess I'll call the soundproofing company on Tuesday and see what's up.


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## MrAngles

Ok guys, let me know what's wrong with this plan for the screen wall:

I'm going with 2" rigid foam, 2x3 furring strips and a single layer of 5/8" drywall for the screen wall. This gives me a 4" thick wall, with a 1-1/2" space for running wires (more by carving into the foam a bit if necessary), and the wall is not connected to the floor joists above, so sound transfer through studs is not a problem.

The hole this leaves open is the gap between the wall and the ceiling, so I'm thinking about ways to close off the floor joists behind the wall somehow, throw some more foam board up there or something... And then I realized I have a water drain pipe up in that corner between the wall and ceiling which would be sticking out, not to mention a source of noise, so now I figure, throw a insulated soffit up there right?









What am I not thinking of here?


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## MrAngles

So is using a layer of OSB better or worse than drywall for soundproofing? If doing two layers of drywall, I'm assuming you want to screw the 2nd layer into the clip/wood vs only screwing it into the 1st layer of drywall, right? Has anyone here used three layers of drywall at all?


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> So is using a layer of OSB better or worse than drywall for soundproofing?


I asked John Hile the same question - they are pretty much the same. The reason I did one layer as OSB was just in case I wanted to screw something to the wall - OSB would support that much better.



MrAngles said:


> If doing two layers of drywall, I'm assuming you want to screw the 2nd layer into the clip/wood vs only screwing it into the 1st layer of drywall, right?


Right.



MrAngles said:


> Has anyone here used three layers of drywall at all?


I have never seen it in any of the build threads I have read.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I asked John Hile the same question - they are pretty much the same. The reason I did one layer as OSB was just in case I wanted to screw something to the wall - OSB would support that much better.


Cool, so with OSB, can't you just screw the drywall layer in anywhere you want without worrying about screwing into clips?


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Cool, so with OSB, can't you just screw the drywall layer in anywhere you want without worrying about screwing into clips?


I don't think you would want to do that as you would then be putting all the weight from the drywall and OSB on the OSB-into-clips screws.


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## MrAngles

Ok.

So what do most people do for doors? My steel door to my garage seems to do a good job keeping sound out, although that might be more due to having a sealed jamb than the construction of the door itself. For those who have a 8"-12" thick wall, what does it look like having a 1-3/4" door on it?


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## ALMFamily

Not sure about others, but I am planning a solid oak door for the entrance. For the AV closet, I am making my own so I can do a smoked glass to allow for gear to be visible.


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## MrAngles

Are you going to seal it with stuff from the soundproofing company?


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## ALMFamily

If you mean the automatic door bottom, yes sir I am! Just on the entrance door though.......


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I don't think you would want to do that as you would then be putting all the weight from the drywall and OSB on the OSB-into-clips screws.


So what's the best way to avoid screwing into a screw from the first layer, just careful spacing measurement?


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## MrAngles

Another question, and I realize that I'm all over the place so I apologize, I have a lot of stuff going through my head because I'm starting exterior wall insulation and framing. With the blocking that you put in between the ceiling joists, #1 how did you attach them to the joists, considering the minimal room to work with up there, and #2, how in the world did you put all those up and keep everything level for the hat channels?

Now that I have to have soffits around the entire perimeter of the room anyway I'm wondering if it's even worth it to do all that work for a couple inches of ceiling height. I don't have a lot of faith in my ability to put up like 160 blocks and keep them all level with each other, I imagine it would end up being a measure ten times cut once situation for me and take a thousand hours.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> So what's the best way to avoid screwing into a screw from the first layer, just careful spacing measurement?


Yes - and be prepared to hit a few even so.  Not too big a deal as you have to mud anyway.



MrAngles said:


> Another question, and I realize that I'm all over the place so I apologize, I have a lot of stuff going through my head because I'm starting exterior wall insulation and framing. With the blocking that you put in between the ceiling joists, #1 how did you attach them to the joists, considering the minimal room to work with up there, and #2, how in the world did you put all those up and keep everything level for the hat channels?
> 
> Now that I have to have soffits around the entire perimeter of the room anyway I'm wondering if it's even worth it to do all that work for a couple inches of ceiling height. I don't have a lot of faith in my ability to put up like 160 blocks and keep them all level with each other, I imagine it would end up being a measure ten times cut once situation for me and take a thousand hours.


If you are not doing a 2nd row on a riser, I would say skip it. However, if you are doing a riser, those couple inches might be golden. That was the only reason I took on the task of putting the blocks in.

Here is a direct link to my explanation of doing the blocking. If that does not provide enough detail, let me know.


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## MrAngles

Thanks! My problem maybe is that I have I-joists, so it's hard to measure and mark the way that you did, and the leveling always takes me a long time since I'm too much of a perfectionist. On the other hand, now that I think about it maybe I can just lay the 2x4s right on top of the bottom flanges of the I-joists... if that's high enough that would keep me from having to mark or level at all.

I'm planning on using a riser, but if you remember, the rear soffit is going to be over the head area on the rear seating anyway, so I'm just not sure how much difference an inch and a half on the ceiling is going to make.


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## MrAngles

MrAngles said:


> On the subject of soundproofing, does it make sense to keep the walls separate from the ceiling in some way? My number one soundproofing concern is sound transfer through the ceiling (in both directions) and I have this idea in my head that I could build walls where the framing doesn't actually connect to the ceiling joists so sound won't transfer through the walls into the ceiling. I haven't seen anything about it online though, so I'm guessing there's a fundamental flaw with the idea that either makes it ineffective or structurally unsound.


Aha!








IB-3 Bracket
This is what I was thinking of! The question is, if you use these to decouple the walls from the ceiling, how do you keep sound from passing through the gap between the floor joists and the wall?


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## MrAngles

So the flanges on the I-joists are 1-1/2" tall. You mentioned in your thread that you measured up 1-1/8", did that give you a half inch from the drywall to the joists then? Maybe 3/8" clearance will work for me, especially since I won't be able to mess up the measurements, just laying the 2x4s on the flanges.


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## MrAngles

OK I got some drywall for between the floor joists last night. I have a 180 degree turn from my garage to by basement door *in a hallway*, after I brought in two sheets of drywall I decided that I'm gonna pay somebody else to carry the 73 sheets I'll need for covering the walls and ceilings. Going forward I'm going to be cutting all the drywall for the joists up before I take them down.

Side note, Joe I noticed that you put clips and channel on one (or all?) of your soffits, is that absolutely necessary?


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## MrAngles

MrAngles said:


> So the flanges on the I-joists are 1-1/2" tall. You mentioned in your thread that you measured up 1-1/8", did that give you a half inch from the drywall to the joists then? Maybe 3/8" clearance will work for me, especially since I won't be able to mess up the measurements, just laying the 2x4s on the flanges.


Oh wait I did the math wrong... that leaves the drywall 1/8" below the joists. Hm.


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## MrAngles

The more I read the more concerned I get about the projector shaking when people walk on the floor above. The living room is directly above the theater room and my five year old stomp, skips and jumps around in that room all the time. What kind of solutions do people have for this?


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## mcascio

If you are putting up whisper clips on your ceiling then you shouldn't have a problem from the kids above.


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## MrAngles

Well, the projector will probably have to be mounted under a soffit, which I wasn't planning on putting whisper clips on. I'm thinking ideal placement would be to attach it to the main support beam, right next to the pole that's holding it up, would that be stable enough to keep it from shaking? Can I mount a flashlight or something to it to test it out?


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## ALMFamily

Perhaps I am missing something - but are you building your soffits inside your soundproofing layer? In my case, I framed around all my HVAC and did the double layer around it. Once done, I built the false soffits and allowed for the projector to be mounted in the false soffit.

So, as Mario said, I have whisperclips between where my projector is mounted and the floor above. If needed, I can locate that section of my thread and link it.


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## MrAngles

I was planning on putting the soffits up prior to drywalling, using whisper clips and dd/gg on the ceiling, and just dd/gg on the soffits. I kind of figured that the actual construction of the soffits decouples the drywall from the floor joists and walls that they are attached to. I want to draw the idea up somehow to make it more clear... I'll see what I can come up with.


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## MrAngles

This is totally not to scale, but this is what I was thinking.


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## ALMFamily

So, in that diagram, where is it you were thinking you would mount the projector?


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## MrAngles

I was thinking right next to the support pole, which will be right behind the rear seating, mounting it directly to the support beam that the pole is holding up.


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## MrAngles

I suppose I should clarify, that's a profile of the theater room, with the screen wall on the right and the rear of the room on the left.


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## ALMFamily

If I am reading that correctly, you are not decoupling the soffits from the joists. If that is correct, you are more than likely going to have transferrence of LFE to your joists through your soffits thus defeating doing clips in the rest of the space.

IMO - You will need to put clips on your soffits to complete your decoupling process. Once you do that, your projector vibration issue would go away.


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## MrAngles

So how do clips prevent vibration of the projector from impacts from above, do you mount the projector to just the drywall using anchors, or mount it to the hat channel, or what?


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## MrAngles

Ok, doing some more research I realize that the 2x2 soffit framing itself won't be decoupling the drywall from the ceiling. I'm now leaning towards mounting the soffit framing to hat channel on whisper clips and mounting the drywall directly to the soffit frame, rather than whisper clips on the soffit. I just can't spare the extra 1-5/8" on the outside of the support beam and the HVAC trunk line.

I was also considering using OSB as part of the soffit framing structure as well as the first layer of mass, rather than a 2x2 frame covered in two layers of drywall, like this. (Hopefully I'm not stepping on any toes by linking to another forum...)


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## ALMFamily

I think what I would do is put the clips on the 2x2's used to create your soffit frame and make the first layer OSB. When I put the clips and channel up, I would run an extra length of channel at the point where I was mounting the projector.

When I put the mount up, I would make sure one set of screws went through the drywall/OSB and into the channel and the other through the drywall/OSB. With the one not in the channel, I would use wing anchors (T-anchors? - the name escapes me at the moment).

This way, I would maintain all my decoupling while ensuring the mount is solid. The amount of vibration that could then make it through the clips to the projector would be no more than the vibrations created by your subs.


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## MrAngles

My concern about putting clips on the soffits is the height. The HVAC trunk is 8" tall. As it stands if I were to do 5/8" OSB and 5/8" drywall with 1/4" clearance below the bottom of the HVAC trunk, it will be 9.5" below the bottom of the floor joists. If I actually do 2x2 framing below the trunk and add 1-5/8" clips/channel on top of that I'm over a foot below the joists, somewhere close to 6'6" above the subfloor for a large section across the entire width of the room.

If I use whisper clips to decouple the entire soffit, then use toggle bolts or possibly reinforce the OSB where I'm mounting the projector, wouldn't that achieve the same effect?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> My concern about putting clips on the soffits is the height. The HVAC trunk is 8" tall. As it stands if I were to do 5/8" OSB and 5/8" drywall with 1/4" clearance below the bottom of the HVAC trunk, it will be 9.5" below the bottom of the floor joists. If I actually do 2x2 framing below the trunk and add 1-5/8" clips/channel on top of that I'm over a foot below the joists, somewhere close to 6'6" above the subfloor for a large section across the entire width of the room.
> 
> If I use whisper clips to decouple the entire soffit, then use toggle bolts or possibly reinforce the OSB where I'm mounting the projector, wouldn't that achieve the same effect?


Sorry for not responding sooner - had to mow the lawn and it takes a solid 3 hours. :unbelievable:

One question if you do not mind - how far is it from the back of your proposed soffit in the back covering that trunk to your proposed rear wall?

I do think your idea will work well - I am just wondering how much space you would have between the two. One change I would suggest - if you do it that way, I would put the ceiling first layer up and then butt the soffit first layer to that. That will keep your damping distance from the floor joists and create a good corner for you to use the acoustical sealant on.


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## mcascio

MrAngles said:


> So how do clips prevent vibration of the projector from impacts from above, do you mount the projector to just the drywall using anchors, or mount it to the hat channel, or what?


Almfamily has it right. You need more clips and channel around the soffit. Then, you can put some Osb in the general area of where your projector is going to be mounted as the first layer instead of drywall. In my case, I added a few more clips in that area to accommodate the extra projector weight.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Sorry for not responding sooner - had to mow the lawn and it takes a solid 3 hours. :unbelievable:
> 
> One question if you do not mind - how far is it from the back of your proposed soffit in the back covering that trunk to your proposed rear wall?
> 
> I do think your idea will work well - I am just wondering how much space you would have between the two. One change I would suggest - if you do it that way, I would put the ceiling first layer up and then butt the soffit first layer to that. That will keep your damping distance from the floor joists and create a good corner for you to use the acoustical sealant on.


Ok I went down and took some new measurements. From the proposed rear wall to the support beam is 40". From the back of the beam to the front of the HVAC trunk is a total of 47.5", with 29" of clear space between the two. Pretty frustrating that all that space is wasted, I talked to the guy who installed it today, I'm thinking of getting a quote on moving it back to right in front of the support beam.

Also, I forgot that the support beam is actually 9.5" tall, so I'm losing an inch and a half more than I thought.

I'm thinking that if I'm putting the ceiling layer up first I'll need to do something bigger than a 2x2 for the frame of the soffit to screw into the hat channel, since the OSB layer will be attaching directly to it, rather than to vertical framing.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Ok I went down and took some new measurements. From the proposed rear wall to the support beam is 40". From the back of the beam to the front of the HVAC trunk is a total of 47.5", with 29" of clear space between the two. Pretty frustrating that all that space is wasted, I talked to the guy who installed it today, I'm thinking of getting a quote on moving it back to right in front of the support beam.
> 
> Also, I forgot that the support beam is actually 9.5" tall, so I'm losing an inch and a half more than I thought.



Agreed - that is a bit of wasted space. But, I cannot imagine it will be inexpensive to move it. If you were to move it, is there any chance it could be moved to the other side of the beam closer to your proposed rear wall?



MrAngles said:


> I'm thinking that if I'm putting the ceiling layer up first I'll need to do something bigger than a 2x2 for the frame of the soffit to screw into the hat channel, since the OSB layer will be attaching directly to it, rather than to vertical framing.


I think you would be OK here - OSB is 3/4" which would leave you 3/4" to screw the vertical soffit OSB into the 2x2 attached to the res channel. As long as you pre-drill your holes, you shouldn't split anything. Just make sure to have a line of clips/channel for ceiling support that is within 8" of the soffit support channel to ensure a solidly supported seam.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Agreed - that is a bit of wasted space. But, I cannot imagine it will be inexpensive to move it. If you were to move it, is there any chance it could be moved to the other side of the beam closer to your proposed rear wall?


Yeah I wouldn't want to spend a bunch on it, but I'm really thinking I'll need to get the guy out there anyway to set the basement lines up on a 3rd zone, and to help put in the air returns in the rooms, so hopefully as a package it won't be too bad. If I could get the trunk put behind the beam that would be ideal, we'll see how it works out I guess.



ALMFamily said:


> I think you would be OK here - OSB is 3/4" which would leave you 3/4" to screw the vertical soffit OSB into the 2x2 attached to the res channel. As long as you pre-drill your holes, you shouldn't split anything. Just make sure to have a line of clips/channel for ceiling support that is within 8" of the soffit support channel to ensure a solidly supported seam.


 Should I be spacing the clips closer together for hanging the soffit on than I do for the ceiling drywall you think? If I'm understanding the concept correctly, the further the clips are from each other the better the flex for soundproofing, but I also don't want the whole thing falling down on my head at some point.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Yeah I wouldn't want to spend a bunch on it, but I'm really thinking I'll need to get the guy out there anyway to set the basement lines up on a 3rd zone, and to help put in the air returns in the rooms, so hopefully as a package it won't be too bad. If I could get the trunk put behind the beam that would be ideal, we'll see how it works out I guess.
> 
> Should I be spacing the clips closer together for hanging the soffit on than I do for the ceiling drywall you think? If I'm understanding the concept correctly, the further the clips are from each other the better the flex for soundproofing, but I also don't want the whole thing falling down on my head at some point.


I think what I imagined you were doing was running two lines of clips / channel the full width of the room and then the 2x2s would be screwed directly onto those in order to decouple the soffit.

Did you get the clips from Ted and John? If so, they have diagrams for spacing of clips / channel. Using those and the decoupling method above, I would treat your soffit as the "end" of the ceiling on each side and place a line of clips / channel within 8" of each side of the soffit.


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## MrAngles

That's right, the channel will be going across the width of the room. I haven't ordered anything yet, it will likely be fall at the earliest before I'm to the point where I'll be doing any drywall or soffits. I looked through the documentation on the website and I get the spacing between channels, the 8" on each end of the ceiling and the spacing between the clips along a channel, which I understand should be about 48". I haven't seen anything about hanging a soffit on clips however, and I'm guessing that putting a clip every two feet along a channel rather than every four feet might be better for the soffit for better support.

Another question, and sorry if it's in your build thread but I didn't see it, how did you make sure your whisper clips were all in line with each other so the channel would be straight?


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> That's right, the channel will be going across the width of the room. I haven't ordered anything yet, it will likely be fall at the earliest before I'm to the point where I'll be doing any drywall or soffits. I looked through the documentation on the website and I get the spacing between channels, the 8" on each end of the ceiling and the spacing between the clips along a channel, which I understand should be about 48". I haven't seen anything about hanging a soffit on clips however, and I'm guessing that putting a clip every two feet along a channel rather than every four feet might be better for the soffit for better support.


Actually, spacing on the ceiling is every 16" - on walls it is every 24". The only exception is where you come to corners. If you get the clips from The SoundProofing Company, they have a fair number of very helpful PDFs to step you through it.



MrAngles said:


> Another question, and sorry if it's in your build thread but I didn't see it, how did you make sure your whisper clips were all in line with each other so the channel would be straight?


On the walls, I made myself a "measuring stick" from a 2x4x8 and went along and marked the position of each clip on each stud. Note - my cement floor was not completely level, but it was close enough that I had no problems getting the channel mounted.

On the ceiling, I snapped lines. I needed to snap 2 lines since I used the block method so I could screw the blocks to the joists w/o having to toenail.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Actually, spacing on the ceiling is every 16" - on walls it is every 24". The only exception is where you come to corners. If you get the clips from The SoundProofing Company, they have a fair number of very helpful PDFs to step you through it.


Maybe I'm reading this wrong

I read this as wanting 16" between channels, and 48" between clips on each channel (Skipping a couple studs/joists between clips)?



ALMFamily said:


> On the walls, I made myself a "measuring stick" from a 2x4x8 and went along and marked the position of each clip on each stud. Note - my cement floor was not completely level, but it was close enough that I had no problems getting the channel mounted.
> 
> On the ceiling, I snapped lines. I needed to snap 2 lines since I used the block method so I could screw the blocks to the joists w/o having to toenail.


Ohhhhhhhhhhh, it seems so simple now. Thanks!


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Maybe I'm reading this wrong
> 
> I read this as wanting 16" between channels, and 48" between clips on each channel (Skipping a couple studs/joists between clips)?


Sorry, I thought you were talking about channels with the 48" spacing. You are spot on. I think there may be a few more clips on the ceiling that you would have on the walls to help support the weight better, but it is not many at all.


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## MrAngles

Hey I'm back!!

I haven't done a lot on the basement, a ton of other expenses came up, but I've put up a bunch of foamboard insulation on the walls with furring strips and put some drywall up under the floorboard in the outside edge.

Now I have a couple questions about flanking.
First off, I'm using Dri-core on the floor, and had originally planned on laying it all down first as the instructions indicate, and build the walls on top of that. Suddenly I realize that the design of Dri-core leaves an obvious flanking path for sound. This is particularly concerning to me because the theater room is directly next to the mechanical room. Should I put the walls up first, then do a self-contained Dri-core floor in the home theater? I noticed that's what ALM did, which looks great, but in that case, do you actually mount the drywall so it's touching the concrete and sealed with acoustical sealant? Isn't that a moisture hazard?

Second, I'm putting double drywall between the floor joists, double drywalling the ceiling and putting it on clips and everything in the theater room, but I plan to put up a drop-ceiling everywhere else in the basement. Doesn't that allow for sound to come in through the drop ceiling (and from the floor above where there is no drywall between the joists), and travel through the joist cavities into the theater room? Would it help to put drywall up vertically in the joist area to further seal off the room from the outside? I really don't want to put up a drywall ceiling outside the theater room, I do a lot of wiring projects and sealing that all up just wouldn't make sense in my situation.

Thanks guys!


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Hey I'm back!!
> 
> I haven't done a lot on the basement, a ton of other expenses came up, but I've put up a bunch of foamboard insulation on the walls with furring strips and put some drywall up under the floorboard in the outside edge.
> 
> Now I have a couple questions about flanking.
> First off, I'm using Dri-core on the floor, and had originally planned on laying it all down first as the instructions indicate, and build the walls on top of that. Suddenly I realize that the design of Dri-core leaves an obvious flanking path for sound. This is particularly concerning to me because the theater room is directly next to the mechanical room. Should I put the walls up first, then do a self-contained Dri-core floor in the home theater? I noticed that's what ALM did, which looks great, but in that case, do you actually mount the drywall so it's touching the concrete and sealed with acoustical sealant? Isn't that a moisture hazard?


I did not actually have it touch the concrete - I shimmed it up about 1/4". Then, I used the acoustical sealant to fill that gap and close the flanking path. That 1/4" is approximately the gap created by the Dri-Core - if it gets higher than that, you will be replacing more than just the drywall.



MrAngles said:


> Second, I'm putting double drywall between the floor joists, double drywalling the ceiling and putting it on clips and everything in the theater room, but I plan to put up a drop-ceiling everywhere else in the basement. Doesn't that allow for sound to come in through the drop ceiling (and from the floor above where there is no drywall between the joists), and travel through the joist cavities into the theater room? Would it help to put drywall up vertically in the joist area to further seal off the room from the outside? I really don't want to put up a drywall ceiling outside the theater room, I do a lot of wiring projects and sealing that all up just wouldn't make sense in my situation.
> 
> Thanks guys!


It doesn't - even if any sound comes through the drop ceiling (try to put some insulation above it) to the joists, you still have your clips and channel separating your joists from your 2 layers in the HT. You should be good to go. 

When you put everything together, try to make sure you use acoustical sealant in the seams.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I did not actually have it touch the concrete - I shimmed it up about 1/4". Then, I used the acoustical sealant to fill that gap and close the flanking path. That 1/4" is approximately the gap created by the Dri-Core - if it gets higher than that, you will be replacing more than just the drywall.


Thanks! So I'm assuming that you used pressure-treated wood for the bottom plate of the wall





ALMFamily said:


> It doesn't - even if any sound comes through the drop ceiling (try to put some insulation above it) to the joists, you still have your clips and channel separating your joists from your 2 layers in the HT. You should be good to go.
> 
> When you put everything together, try to make sure you use acoustical sealant in the seams.


That's another question I had, when looking at my drywall between my floor joists, I'm wondering if I should be sealing those seams? Or is the sheer mass of the double layers the important part of the equation?

Anyway, I guess I just thought if adding mass to the floorboards above the theater room actually effectively helps get rid of footstep noise there, despite being over a clipped dd ceiling, what happens to the footstep noise over the adjacent basement rooms to keep it from getting through?


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## ALMFamily

Correct - anything in contact with the concrete was AC2. Had I built the riser on the concrete, the riser would also have been AC2.

That is exactly what I did - I sealed those seams on the drywall between the joists as well. Perhaps I am missing something, but as long as you have two layers all around attached to the channel in your HT, any noise will still have to go through it.

One thing to remember - you will never be able to be completely soundproof. The best you can hope for is good sound isolation.


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## MrAngles

Thanks! Yeah I definitely have no notions that the room will be fully soundproof, but anything I can do to keep the furnace noise and the overhead footsteps out I will do. I'm planning on double walls with double drywall on both sides and double drywall on clips on the ceiling, and I'd hate to go to all that expense and effort for furnace noise to end up just going up and over the wall.


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## MrAngles

Oh, another question, not really HT related but for anybody who's doing a basement with windows. I'm putting 2" extruded foam insulation up with 2x3 furring strips on the wall where my window is, and the sheetrock will be screwed right onto the furring strips. How in the world do you frame around the window in a way that will allow a finished wood-wrapped window without any moisture issues? I don't want any wood or sheetrock touching the concrete around the window or touching the steel window frame itself do I?


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## camsauce

MrAngles said:


> Another question, and sorry if it's in your build thread but I didn't see it, how did you make sure your whisper clips were all in line with each other so the channel would be straight?


I haven't done this myself yet, but couldn't you snap a couple of chalklines? I think the channel has some flex in it.


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## MrAngles

camsauce said:


> I haven't done this myself yet, but couldn't you snap a couple of chalklines? I think the channel has some flex in it.


Yeah, that's what ALM said too, I haven't snapped a chalk line since I was a kid so I forgot all about that option.


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## MrAngles

Does anyone here use steel stud walls? My understanding is that they are better for sound isolation, but I have zero experience with them.


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## ALMFamily

I have actually never seen them used - hopefully, someone else has and will chime in soon.


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## MrAngles

Well at least that information alone kind of leads me to believe that it can't be that great of an option. I appreciate it.


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## MrAngles

OK the HVAC guy came out today to talk about what I want to do, the good part is that setting up the basement on a separate zone and moving that main trunk line that is pretty much directly above my rear row of seating entirely outside of the theater room is doable. The bad part is that with the direction my furnace is facing, the access panel directly faces the side wall of the theater room which I had hoped I could put just a few inches away from it. Anybody have some ideas for this? He suggested putting an access door in the theater room, but that really messes up my sound isolation plans. I'm wondering if maybe I can make an access panel out of drywall or one layer of drywall and one layer of OSB (on both sides of the wall) that I can seal up with acoustical caulk any time I need to get into it. The studs will be 24" apart anyway, so that would allow enough room for access I think. I doubt it will be up to code, but I'm thinking more and more about not having it inspected anyway, I just want to have a way to access the furnace every once in a while if necessary without having to tear up the drywall.


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## MrAngles

I had a feeling I wouldn't get many responses on this one... It really sucks, all this work doing double walls with double drywall on the mechanical room wall seems like a waste if I'm going to have to have a door right next to the furnace.


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## ALMFamily

I may have an idea, but let me ask first - in order to change the furnace filter, would you have to use this access door or can the filter be changed without going through it?


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## MrAngles

I guess I don't know, I assumed there were just filters in each of the return air vents, but if that's not the case, wouldn't it be where the return air enters the furnace? If that's the case that's on the side, so it could be accessed from the mechanical room.


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## MrAngles

The other option would be to pay to have the furnace rotated and/or moved, which since I'm planning on being in this house for a long time, seems more and more like reasonable option.


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## dguarnaccia

MA, regarding steel studs, I think the idea is really to get decoupling. I used sound isolationclips, and metal hat tracks, along with double layers of sheetrock with greenglue in between to get maximum sound isolution. That combo should give you around 56 STC. Another thing to consider is stagger studded walls where you build a 6" wall and then stagger the 2x4 studs so no single stud touches both walls. That and double layer sheetrock/greenglue can also give you a huge benefit in terms of sound isolation. 

That's what I came up with in my research at least...


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> The other option would be to pay to have the furnace rotated and/or moved, which since I'm planning on being in this house for a long time, seems more and more like reasonable option.


Did you happen to get an estimate as to what they would charge to move it? My idea involves something similar to what I am doing with my electrical panel / sump pump area, but it will not be anywhere near as good as leaving the walls as is.


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## MrAngles

dguarnaccia said:


> MA, regarding steel studs, I think the idea is really to get decoupling. I used sound isolationclips, and metal hat tracks, along with double layers of sheetrock with greenglue in between to get maximum sound isolution. That combo should give you around 56 STC. Another thing to consider is stagger studded walls where you build a 6" wall and then stagger the 2x4 studs so no single stud touches both walls. That and double layer sheetrock/greenglue can also give you a huge benefit in terms of sound isolation.
> 
> That's what I came up with in my research at least...


Thank you, actually my plan is to use a double wall design for isolation (two 4" walls with a couple inches of air between with double drywall and green glue on each side of the wall. I thought I saw a comparison of different walls (maybe on soundproofingcompany.com?) showing that metal stud walls had a slightly higher STC rating due to being more flexible.


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## dguarnaccia

I think I saw the same chart. Whatever you, don't sheetrock the interior sides of the walls and get the triple leaf effect. I would imagine though that sound isolation clips would be better cost/benefit wise vs steel studs which I would guess are much more expensive?


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## MrAngles

dguarnaccia said:


> I think I saw the same chart. Whatever you, don't sheetrock the interior sides of the walls and get the triple leaf effect. I would imagine though that sound isolation clips would be better cost/benefit wise vs steel studs which I would guess are much more expensive?


Steel studs are definitely more expensive than wood studs, I'm not sure if a double stud wall with steel studs would be more expensive than a single stud wood wall with clips and hat channel on both sides, but a double stud wall has a better STC rating than a wall with clips whether it uses steel studs or not.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Did you happen to get an estimate as to what they would charge to move it? My idea involves something similar to what I am doing with my electrical panel / sump pump area, but it will not be anywhere near as good as leaving the walls as is.


I'm still waiting on an estimate from the HVAC guy. He suggested a short door just like what you have, and I think it's perfect for your situation, but having a door inches away from the loud furnace which is only a few feet away from where my couch is going to be, really scares me. 

My hope is that with all the moving/replacement of a lot of the trunk lines that connect to the unit, the cost to rotate the thing won't actually be too bad.


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## dguarnaccia

One thing to remember to do is the make sure they HVAC guy programs the unit for airflow even when the furnace isn't on. We didn't put in AC, since it's a basement theater, but the room is so sealed, it can get stuffy when the furnace isn't on. I'm having our guy come back and program the unit to also just move air on a programed basis. We also went with wireless controlers that can be brought into each room with rocks, so we can control the temp from a specific room while watching a movie. Highly recommend that!


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## MrAngles

I was thinking about the same problem when we talked about not putting an air return in the theater, but he didn't seem concerned about it. So your set up turns the fan on in that zone intermittently, regardless of what the thermostat is set to? Could I just program the thermostat to turn the AC on a couple times a day for the same effect? 

I don't much like the idea of having a wireless thermostat just because I know it would get lost. I do want to get one with a IR receiver though, so I can control it with the HT remote.


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## dguarnaccia

Yea, AC would work but we don't have it. The basement temp stays pretty constant as well, so a lot of times the air doesn't kick it at all, hence the timed airflow.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> I'm still waiting on an estimate from the HVAC guy. He suggested a short door just like what you have, and I think it's perfect for your situation, but having a door inches away from the loud furnace which is only a few feet away from where my couch is going to be, really scares me.
> 
> My hope is that with all the moving/replacement of a lot of the trunk lines that connect to the unit, the cost to rotate the thing won't actually be too bad.


If you do end up having to go with a door, I would make it one that incorporates more material than mine does. My thought was to take the OSB and drywall you had to cut out and screw them together with GG between. Then, I would cut 4 blocks for each corner and liquid nail them to the OSB/sheetrock. Make sure the blocks are as small as possible to limit the bass transferrence possibility. Liquid Nail a piece of sheetrock on top of that. Then, take some 6mm plastic and seal the sides and bottom gaps created by the block. Fill with insulation and then seal the top. This door would be thicker than a solid oak door and you also limit bass vibration through the door. You would just have to recess the door jambs far enough to allow for the thickness. Put some weatherstripping on the door jambs - something like you see on the door jamb assembly from The Soundproofing Company. that should give you a good seal.

To dress it up a bit and hide seams, I think I would glue trim to the door that would overlap the wall. I would make sure to put some foam on the part of the trim that contacts the wall to reduce chances of rattling.

I don't know for sure as I have never tested something like this, but I think it should work......


----------



## MrAngles

Thanks, yeah that's basically what I was thinking. I also figured I could seal the seams with acoustical caulk, I don't imagine I would need to access the thing that often. Then again that depends on where the filter is, which I'm still not sure about.

The HVAC guy hasn't gotten back to me with a quote, so I guess I get to call another guy. I've lived in the midwest for six months now and I've had eight different contractors never call back, arrive hours late without calling, or no show at this point. I don't know what the deal is, I never had this issue in Oregon.


----------



## MrAngles

Thanks for posting pics of your door by the way, I've been trying to picture what thesoundproofingcompany's door hardware looks like in action, and that finally clears that up. I keep going back and forth on the door issue, but usually end up coming back to using a pre-hung exterior door, so it will come with weatherstripping seals around the whole thing. Eventually I'll probably replace the steel door with a solid core wood door depending on how much sound escapes, but it will still have the exterior door seal.


----------



## MrAngles

How come I never see ceiling fans in pics of dedicated theater rooms? I enjoy a nice ceiling fan, is it just ridiculous to have one in a basement, or what?


----------



## Owen Bartley

Speaking only for myself, I think a ceiling fan in my basement would decapitate me. If you've got the height for it, and it won't get in the way of your projector, I don't see why you couldn't put one in. I think some people wouldn't want to add the extra sound from the motor and blades, but again, if its something you don't mind, and you like the air movement, no big deal!


----------



## MrAngles

Owen Bartley said:


> Speaking only for myself, I think a ceiling fan in my basement would decapitate me. If you've got the height for it, and it won't get in the way of your projector, I don't see why you couldn't put one in. I think some people wouldn't want to add the extra sound from the motor and blades, but again, if its something you don't mind, and you like the air movement, no big deal!


Yeah I haven't done the measurements yet but I know I would definitely have to find something that's low profile. Hopefully the right fan positioned to not hang over the riser at all won't chop my head off. I worry about having a light-box sized hole in my expensive sound dampening ceiling, but I figure putty pads and acoustical sealant would help.


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## ALMFamily

I have the same issue Owen has - my ceiling started off less than 8' to start so a ceiling fan is just not feasible.

If I had the room, I don't know that I would do it. For me, I would want nothing to detract from focusing on the screen. Whirling fan blades above me might be a distraction - I have one over my bed and I see them when I am watching the TV and it is on.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Did you happen to get an estimate as to what they would charge to move it?


I've now had five different guys come to look at the basement, and all but the last one said they didn't want to do the job. The last guy was a one-man shop who apparently isn't as busy as the rest, and he quoted me $3300 to move the furnace and move the main 14" duct to outside of the theater room. I've decided not to put the room on a separate zone from the main level, mostly because it would only be four vents and I only have a single stage furnace, so it wouldn't be good for the furnace if I turned the basement heat on by itself anyway. 

Part of why I wanted to have a separate zone was to have a less direct path from the theater room vents to the upstairs vents. Now that I'm not doing that I have to figure out a new way to keep sound in. Will a "soffit muffler" for each vent be enough? I'm almost certain that an air return is a bad idea here, because the single giant air return for the main floor is right next to where my wife sits while she's watching tv in the living room.


----------



## MrAngles

I'm hoping I don't end up having someone post "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" about the $3300 after I end up hiring the guy. This is a huge chunk of the home theater budget, but it's pretty crucial. Having a door directly in front of the furnace just three feet away from my seating would really put a damper on all my soundproofing efforts, and having the 14" duct right over my head in the back row on the riser would be a big pain.


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## ALMFamily

Honestly, I think if you do not do it, it will just bug you and detract from your overall experience. Remember, building a HT is not a sprint - it is a long distance journey. Do what you can do now, and then just add to it over time.

I am 1 year and 1 month into my build, and I do not see myself finishing for at least another 9 months. And, that is just to get it useable.......


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Honestly, I think if you do not do it, it will just bug you and detract from your overall experience. Remember, building a HT is not a sprint - it is a long distance journey. Do what you can do now, and then just add to it over time.
> 
> I am 1 year and 1 month into my build, and I do not see myself finishing for at least another 9 months. And, that is just to get it useable.......


I appreciate the feedback. My original plan was to tackle finishing the basement as a single job. At this point my wife is rushing me to get a space put together down there where she can hide out comfortably during storms in tornado season, so I'm putting it together in more of a three-stage process.


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## ALMFamily

Understand completely - the number of times I have heard "when is the room going to be done?" is too many to count!


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## MrAngles

Okay, the main supply ducts are all completely outside of the room now and the furnace is moved and rotated. Looks like I finally get to start framing the next time I get a free moment!


----------



## Wardsweb

Congratulations on passing this mile stone. Now on to the next phase and don't forget the pictures.


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## ALMFamily

Glad to hear it mate - I am certain in the long run you will be glad you went ahead and had this done.

Now on to the fun! :bigsmile:


----------



## MrAngles

Well I've been trying to figure out the door situation for a while now because I wanted an exterior door/frame but I think I only have room for a 77 inch tall door. Finally I just bought a exterior door frame kit including the weatherseals, an exterior threshold, a rubber door sweep, and a solid slab 1-3/4" wood door.

This should be great, particularly since I have no idea how to hang a door in the first place, heheh.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Well I've been trying to figure out the door situation for a while now because I wanted an exterior door/frame but I think I only have room for a 77 inch tall door. Finally I just bought a exterior door frame kit including the weatherseals, an exterior threshold, a rubber door sweep, and a solid slab 1-3/4" wood door.
> 
> This should be great, particularly since I have no idea how to hang a door in the first place, heheh.


Make sure to get plenty of shims. Also, make sure to place the shims where you plan to nail/screw the door to the frame so that you make sure the shims do not shift. Other than that, as long as you have a good level and another set of hands, you should be good to go.


----------



## Owen Bartley

MrAngles said:


> Okay, the main supply ducts are all completely outside of the room now...


Hmmm, I don't know why I never thought about that before, but that could be a way for me to avoid having a big ugly soffit in my basement too... funny how sometimes an idea has to be spelled out in its most basic form sometimes. Or maybe its just me. onder:


----------



## MrAngles

Owen Bartley said:


> Hmmm, I don't know why I never thought about that before, but that could be a way for me to avoid having a big ugly soffit in my basement too... funny how sometimes an idea has to be spelled out in its most basic form sometimes. Or maybe its just me. onder:


Yeah it's nice. It would have been nicer if I had been involved in the building stage a couple weeks earlier and told them not to put the main trunk right across the middle of the room, and saved $3300...


----------



## MrAngles

ALM!

You kind of have a threshold under your door for the door sweep to hit, right? Did you put that on top of the Dri-core, or did you put a strip of pressure treated on the slab next to the Dri-core and put the threshold on top of that?

Also a question for anybody, I've got flex duct supplying the HT room, do I also need to replace the rigid ducts that pass through the room that supply the room above, or are they cool how they are?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> ALM!
> 
> You kind of have a threshold under your door for the door sweep to hit, right? Did you put that on top of the Dri-core, or did you put a strip of pressure treated on the slab next to the Dri-core and put the threshold on top of that?


I do - I put it on top of the Dri-Core. But, I cut my door frame to sit on top of the Dri-Core so that kind of locked me into putting it there. Worked well though - I installed the Automatic Door Jamb system from The Soundproofing Company and I was able to get it to seal really well.



MrAngles said:


> Also a question for anybody, I've got flex duct supplying the HT room, do I also need to replace the rigid ducts that pass through the room that supply the room above, or are they cool how they are?


I swapped mine over - I had 2 lengths running through the room and made them both flex. I figured I went to all the effort to sound isolate as much as I could, I might as well remove any potential noise creation that I was able to.


----------



## MrAngles

Thanks! I have a piece of 1x4 pressure treated wood that I was thinking of using in the doorframe, it's technically a 1/4" shorter than the Dri-core so I was thinking that it would make the exterior door threshold a little less obtrusive for tripping over or something, while also providing a solid surface I can seal with acoustical caulk. I'm not sure if the height difference will cause problems with the transition from the threshold and the carpet though.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Thanks! I have a piece of 1x4 pressure treated wood that I was thinking of using in the doorframe, it's technically a 1/4" shorter than the Dri-core so I was thinking that it would make the exterior door threshold a little less obtrusive for tripping over or something, while also providing a solid surface I can seal with acoustical caulk. I'm not sure if the height difference will cause problems with the transition from the threshold and the carpet though.


That was my concern as well - the transition ended up turning out pretty well in my case - I can snap a photo of what I did there if it helps.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> That was my concern as well - the transition ended up turning out pretty well in my case - I can snap a photo of what I did there if it helps.


That would be great when you get a chance, thanks!


----------



## MrAngles

Menards is having a sale on Lutron products so I'm looking into lighting a bit. It seems like a lot of people are talking about the Grafik Eye, but not a lot of people talk about the standard IR dimmers. All I want is a central ceiling light for entering/exiting the room and cleaning, and a separate zone of sconces for ambient lighting. I figure I'll mount an IR dimmer for each in the AV rack for my IR repeater to control, and one switch that controls the overhead light at the entrance to the room. I figure this multilocation set will do the job for the overhead light, but if I get another Lutron IR switch, will I have an option to use different IR codes for it, or will I need to find something from a different manufacturer (if such a thing exists)?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> That would be great when you get a chance, thanks!


Here are a couple different angles:































MrAngles said:


> Menards is having a sale on Lutron products so I'm looking into lighting a bit. It seems like a lot of people are talking about the Grafik Eye, but not a lot of people talk about the standard IR dimmers. All I want is a central ceiling light for entering/exiting the room and cleaning, and a separate zone of sconces for ambient lighting. I figure I'll mount an IR dimmer for each in the AV rack for my IR repeater to control, and one switch that controls the overhead light at the entrance to the room. I figure this multilocation set will do the job for the overhead light, but if I get another Lutron IR switch, will I have an option to use different IR codes for it, or will I need to find something from a different manufacturer (if such a thing exists)?


I know there are a few people that are using IR dimmers and use a Harmony to control them. IIRC, Dale Rasco and Prof are two. I use the Grafik Eye, so I am not sure about this. Hopefully, Prof will chime in - or you could check with Dale and see if he can shed some light on it.


----------



## jgourlie

ALMFamily said:


> Here are a couple different angles:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know there are a few people that are using IR dimmers and use a Harmony to control them. IIRC, Dale Rasco and Prof are two. I use the Grafik Eye, so I am not sure about this. Hopefully, Prof will chime in - or you could check with Dale and see if he can shed some light on it.


I have an IR dimmer that is hooked up to my harmony one remote....I have it set to turn on and off with certain actions and the favorite setting is nice to set the lights at a certain brightness to have a little light in the room when watching tv for example and you don't want it completely dark.

Those Ir's will do exactly what you need them to do, specially if you can put the IR repeater in your equipment rack.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Here are a couple different angles:


Thank you, that's enlightening.



jgourlie said:


> I have an IR dimmer that is hooked up to my harmony one remote....I have it set to turn on and off with certain actions and the favorite setting is nice to set the lights at a certain brightness to have a little light in the room when watching tv for example and you don't want it completely dark.
> 
> Those Ir's will do exactly what you need them to do, specially if you can put the IR repeater in your equipment rack.


Can you control more than one lighting zone with them though?


----------



## MrAngles

My soundproofing order arrived!

On a related note, I was cutting some holes in the joists in order to reroute the exhaust pipe for my water heater last night, and this morning I noticed that in doing so I had applied one of the four principles of soundproofing to my phone, as I for some reason had it sitting out on top of the ladder and filled the mic and speaker grilles with sawdust.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> My soundproofing order arrived!
> 
> On a related note, I was cutting some holes in the joists in order to reroute the exhaust pipe for my water heater last night, and this morning I noticed that in doing so I had applied one of the four principles of soundproofing to my phone, as I for some reason had it sitting out on top of the ladder and filled the mic and speaker grilles with sawdust.


LOL - oops! That was probably not a good start to the day....


----------



## jgourlie

You can control more then 1 zone but the dimmers take the same ir codes so it would be tricky to control each set of lights independantly with the maestro's....although I do believe that the lutron spacer master control will do the seperate zones.

not sure if that helps or not,


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## MrAngles

jgourlie said:


> You can control more then 1 zone but the dimmers take the same ir codes so it would be tricky to control each set of lights independantly with the maestro's....although I do believe that the lutron spacer master control will do the seperate zones.
> 
> not sure if that helps or not,


I saw the Spacer system, I was really hoping to be able to do two zones without buying something that expensive.


----------



## jgourlie

MrAngles said:


> I saw the Spacer system, I was really hoping to be able to do two zones without buying something that expensive.


If you don't won't to have seperate control of the zones then the maestro's will work just fine.


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## MrAngles

jgourlie said:


> If you don't won't to have seperate control of the zones then the maestro's will work just fine.


Well there's the issue then, I would prefer separate control, otherwise they aren't really separate zones. It sounds like I might have to put one zone on the Maestro switches, and put the other on a Z-Wave switch, maybe something like this. It would be hodgepodge, but it would give me two zones each controlled separately by both wall switches and the remote for around $100.


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## MrAngles

Okay it's picture time! Sorry about the large sizes.

It's been a while, so here's what it used to look like:








And here are the outside walls with 2" rigid foam insulation glued to the concrete with Loctite PL300, seams taped with Venture tape, held up by 1x3 (on the left side wall) and 2x3 (on the screen wall) furring strips on sill sealer on the seams and centers (approx. 24" oc) using tapcons.

















Here's the pic of the old furnace location and the main HVAC line going right across the room above the seating area.








$3300 and some framing later...
















Here's a look at the double stud wall between the theater and the mechanical room








And here's a look at the entrance from outside the theater. You can see where the HVAC trunk was moved to, nicely located outside the theater room, where I'll have a drop ceiling so I'll still have access to it.








I've only put up one side of the double stud wall here so far.

The studs are 24" oc so the sheetrock can flex more (better sound isolation) and to save me time and money on studs.

The partition walls are about an inch short and attached to the joists every 48" or so with IB3 clips from the soundproofing company, which reduce sound transfer from the wall framing to the floor joists. These things are pretty simple, just an L clip with some rubber that isolates one screw from the metal, but are very versatile. First off they are forgiving if you don't know how to frame a wall and the top plate isn't quite level, but there are a bunch of ways to position them. The obvious use is shown on the product page, but for walls that are parallel to joists but aren't right next to one, they can be turned sideways, so no blocking is required to attach the wall to the joists.








Additionally I used them in a couple spots to connect the two sides of my double stud wall for stability where there couldn't be a connection to the joists at all:








I'm going to end up using these to mount my soffits to the joists as well, so they will be completely decoupled.

I've never framed a wall before and I did it all by myself, so criticism is welcome!


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## ALMFamily

Great progress!


I think just the fact you were willing to tackle the stud work speaks volumes. I was very nervous about it for my room, so it is the one thing I had done. Kudos to you sir!


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## MrAngles

Thanks! I went with the theory that I have spent enough time messing around inside of walls that I should be able to build them from scratch by now. 

Now I'm thinking about the soffits, how to keep them as small as possible, how to keep them straight and level, this is going to be a tough one for me. I currently have in mind a frameless soffit build, where osb is mounted directly to horizontal 2x2s and used as the first layer of mass. Theoretically I'm hoping I could save space by not having 2x2s on the wall and ceiling around the sections of air return that stick out into the room here, and letting the OSB support the soffit by itself there..


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## MrAngles

Putting drywall between the joists is hard when none of your joists are the same distance between each other and several of them aren't even straight...


----------



## MrAngles

I'm getting ready to run electrical, and I realized I don't know where I'm going to put my projector yet, so I guess I need to start shopping for projectors now to see what placement options I have? This will be my first projector purchase so I need a little help if anyone wants to chime in with suggestions. Historically black levels have been my main concern, and I'm partial to Panasonic plasmas. I don't have a specific projector budget, but I'd like to get the most bang for my buck, if I could keep it closer to $2k that would be great, but I'd go up to $3k or even higher if it's actually worth the difference in price. I want something that works well with a constant image height setup, and can power up to a 120-something inch size screen from about 19 feet away. 3d capability would be cool, but I don't really care about 3d image quality as long as 2d looks great. Any ideas or tips I can get would be great.


----------



## mcascio

MrAngles said:


> I'm getting ready to run electrical, and I realized I don't know where I'm going to put my projector yet, so I guess I need to start shopping for projectors now to see what placement options I have? This will be my first projector purchase so I need a little help if anyone wants to chime in with suggestions. Historically black levels have been my main concern, and I'm partial to Panasonic plasmas. I don't have a specific projector budget, but I'd like to get the most bang for my buck, if I could keep it closer to $2k that would be great, but I'd go up to $3k or even higher if it's actually worth the difference in price. I want something that works well with a constant image height setup, and can power up to a 120-something inch size screen from about 19 feet away. 3d capability would be cool, but I don't really care about 3d image quality as long as 2d looks great. Any ideas or tips I can get would be great.


I currently own the Panasonic AE4000U and have been very satisfied with it. I'm projecting onto a 136" wide 2.35 screen at about 16'3". I've been eyeing the Panasonic AE8000U, but I've only got 150 or so hours on my AE4000U. So I'd be taking a big loss just to upgrade. It looks like the AE8000U would be much brighter than my existing AE4000U and add some 3D...although like you, I've yet to be satisfied with any 3D to date in the home. Although, I would think it may appear more realistic with a much larger screen and it enveloping the front row. I found when I sat close (< 5') to my Panasonic 65" Plasma that the 3D jumped out more.


----------



## MrAngles

Oh, I should mention that I hate fan noise. I'd like to put the projector up on the back wall, but the problem is that I have a beam going across the ceiling right behind the seating area with a support pole, so it has to go directly below and behind that beam. Would it make sense to put it over to the left side near the wall, to keep it as far away from my ears as possible? Would that even make much of a difference in the fan noise? Do I need a specific projector to shift the image that far?


----------



## mcascio

My AE4000u sits directly above the back row seating. You can hear it, but it's not too loud. I've heard the AE8000u is extremely quiet and barely noticable in ECO mode. I'd opt for keeping the projector centered with the screen over trying to eliminate fan noise.


----------



## ALMFamily

I honestly do not think there is a projector that has the ability to adjust that far - the only ones I can think of were the Epsons. IIRC, they have a fairly long throw range as well. Take a look at the calculator at Projector Central to get an idea which projector has the ability to throw that far - you want around 16FL to allow for lamp dimming.

As far as the noise, you could do a hush box if it is that troubling......


----------



## MrAngles

mcascio said:


> My AE4000u sits directly above the back row seating. You can hear it, but it's not too loud. I've heard the AE8000u is extremely quiet and barely noticable in ECO mode. I'd opt for keeping the projector centered with the screen over trying to eliminate fan noise.


That's encouraging. So what about the AE7000? Pretty big price difference there.



ALMFamily said:


> I honestly do not think there is a projector that has the ability to adjust that far - the only ones I can think of were the Epsons. IIRC, they have a fairly long throw range as well. Take a look at the calculator at Projector Central to get an idea which projector has the ability to throw that far - you want around 16FL to allow for lamp dimming.
> 
> As far as the noise, you could do a hush box if it is that troubling......


I've thought a lot about a hush box. It would be nice to set myself up to add one later if possible. Right now I can't seem to wrap my head around how to make an effective one, probably due to everything else that I'm working on. In my old house the fan noise from the computers in the office down the hall used to bother me while watching a movie. I can only imagine that a projector fan in a sound-isolated room would be at least as noticeable.


----------



## ALMFamily

The only hush box I can recall seeing in a build is Moggie's build thread over at AVS - really well done theater.


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## MrAngles

Thanks, I bookmarked that thread and a couple of threads referenced in it to check out later. I tried reading today but once again the theory involved isn't getting through to me yet.

So with CiH setups you used to need a scaler and an adjustable lens, is none of that stuff needed anymore with modern projectors? What do people do for the Imax scenes in the Dark Knight, do you put masking in front of the lens itself, or does a black screen wall take care of that?


----------



## ALMFamily

I have a Panny AE-7000, so in my case, the projector automatically switches viewing modes. I have not watched it yet to see how annoying it is, but at least it is capable.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I have a Panny AE-7000, so in my case, the projector automatically switches viewing modes. I have not watched it yet to see how annoying it is, but at least it is capable.


Wait, so it automatically zooms in if it sees black bars on the top and bottom and zooms back out again when the image goes to 16x9? That's pretty cool! So when you're watching a scope movie and you bring up the pop up menu does it zoom out?


----------



## MrAngles

And what about when subtitles appear outside of the image area, does that mess with it as well?


----------



## MrAngles

I'm pretty sure at this point that the AE8000U is the projector for me. I wasn't planning on actually buying the projector until later, but looking at the price and the rebate that ends on December 31, I wonder if now is the time to buy? I'm guessing that it's likely for the rebate offer to be extended, but it's $2,641.89 on amazon right now, and it seems like that's the lowest it's been so far. Do projector prices drop during the holiday season then go back up in the 1st quarter like a lot of other consumer electronics? Just wanted to doublecheck with people who have been pricing these things for longer than I have before I pull the trigger.


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## ALMFamily

To me, that seems like a great price. I can tell you I paid more than that for the AE7000 when it came out last year. Unfortunately, I got mine in November so I cannot say for certain if the price will go up after the new year.


----------



## MrAngles

Thanks.

I just want to let you know I've really appreciated all your help. Everybody on the forum has been great, but all the detail in your build thread and the constant quick answers in this thread have been a lifesaver during my build so far. The little details that a lot of people don't include are great, the tip about the panel carrier for drywall for example has saved me a huge amount of grief already.

Anybody who is planning or working on a theater right now owes it to themselves to read through ALM's entire build thread.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I just want to let you know I've really appreciated all your help. Everybody on the forum has been great, but all the detail in your build thread and the constant quick answers in this thread have been a lifesaver during my build so far. The little details that a lot of people don't include are great, the tip about the panel carrier for drywall for example has saved me a huge amount of grief already.
> 
> Anybody who is planning or working on a theater right now owes it to themselves to read through ALM's entire build thread.


Thank you very much for those kind words! :blush:

To know that someone got benefit from the detail I tried to provide makes it completely worth it. Cheers!


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## MrAngles

I loaded up the Durango with Dri-core yesterday. On Black Friday Hy-Vee (local grocery store) was offering $15 off of $75 worth of gift cards, so I bought $450 worth of Lowes gift cards, that along with a 10% off coupon got me 97 panels of Dri-core for $442 out of pocket after tax. Pretty sweet deal. Hopefully they'll be doing the gift card deal next year when I'm ready to set up floor in the rest of the basement.


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## ALMFamily

Wow, nice find! Too bad we don't have a Lowe's close by - my closest one is over an hour away....


----------



## MrAngles

Ok I'm back to floorplanner again, and I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to do with my soffits. The soffits on the sides have to be about 10" high by 18" wide. I figure I'd make the front soffit match the sides, and make the back soffit about 10"x10" so it's less claustrophobic above the doorway. That's all pretty straighforward, but then I have the support beam going across the room, over the bar counter. Here's what I have planned at the moment.









Another option would be to set all the soffits behind the support beam at 10"x10", using the beam as kind of a transition, and allowing more open space by the door and bar. It looks great to me on virtual paper, but I'm not sure if it will look silly in real life.









Does anyone else have any suggestions? The soffit on the right side in front of the support beam has the air return in it, which is why it needs to come out so far. I intend to run flex duct in the left soffit in front of the beam, and in the rear soffit. That's all I need to use the soffits for, other than to cover the support beam. The projector will hang directly behind the support beam, So I'll need to either use a long arm mount, or extend the soffit behind the support beam and mount to that.


----------



## ALMFamily

I think I would go with the second option. To me, since the beam really is now a part of the room, I think it would make a good transition from one dimension of soffit to the other.

My sides are the same dimensions, but the back is much wider than the front soffit. It really turned out well I thought - does not look silly at all.


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## MrAngles

*s`4deWW2A`*

Just placed my order for the PT-AE8000U at bhphotovideo.com. $2699 before the $100 mail-in rebate, the best price I found from an authorized dealer (the MIR, two free sets of glasses and extra year on the warranty required that the purchase be made at an authorized dealer).

I'm running out of money in my projected budget here, I'm definitely going to have to extend it before I get to the seating.


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## ALMFamily

Congrats on the purchase - I would be very interested to hear your impressions of the 8000. I have the 7000 and am wondering how much of a difference there is.


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## MrAngles

I'll let you know once I find a spot to project it on! The reviews I read said that the brightness was the biggest difference, the contrast and other upgrades weren't noticeable until they did a side by side comparison.


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## MrAngles

I cracked open my second bucket of green glue last night. I'll be very happy when I'm done putting sheetrock between the joists. Looks like this weekend I'll be picking up the electrical subpanel, 50' of 6 gauge romex, a whole bunch of 12 gauge romex, a bunch of arc-fault breakers and a bunch of conduit. I guess that means I should make my monoprice order today as well. I already have all the interconnects I need including a 50' HDMI cable for the projector, and I have enough 12 gauge speaker wire to wire up the rears and surrounds. I also have HDMI wallplates, a ton of bananna plugs, a bunch of RCA, banana, cat-6 and coax keystone inserts. So far my monoprice cart has some cat-6 cable, enough speaker wire to wire the L C and R speakers, RCA cables to run to the subwoofers in the L and R speakers, and a five speaker bananna plug wallplate. I'm using conduit for all seven speaker locations, and the projector. Anything obvious that I'm leaving out?


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## mcascio

Not sure what you have planned for runs to the projector, but I'd run (2) cat6 for video, (1) cat5 for serial, (1) cat5 for network, (1) cat5 for potential 12v trigger.

You might also run a cat5 from the projector to the front of the room in case you need an IR receiver for 3D on the projector...I'm just getting into the 3D so I'm not sure if this one is really required. I know they bounce the IR off the screen, but if that doesn't work properly, the IR receiver may be necessary.


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## ALMFamily

Do you have connectors for the RCA lines?


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## MrAngles

I actually have 400 feet of cat-6 cable in my order already, so I'll have plenty to do all that, but I'm using 2" conduit to the projector, which should allow room to run a couple HDMI runs if I end up needing more than one, plus room for cat6 and s-video, whatever. Cat-6 to HDMI is great when you don't have the space for an actual HDMI cable, but I wouldn't want to use it if it's not entirely necessary, I've found that it cuts out due to interference once in a while.

What are serial and network connections for on a projector? Also, what are 12v triggers used for? The only explanation I've found for 12v is for "automation" which is pretty vague.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> I actually have 400 feet of cat-6 cable in my order already, so I'll have plenty to do all that, but I'm using 2" conduit to the projector, which should allow room to run a couple HDMI runs if I end up needing more than one, plus room for cat6 and s-video, whatever. Cat-6 to HDMI is great when you don't have the space for an actual HDMI cable, but I wouldn't want to use it if it's not entirely necessary, I've found that it cuts out due to interference once in a while.
> 
> What are serial and network connections for on a projector? Also, what are 12v triggers used for? The only explanation I've found for 12v is for "automation" which is pretty vague.


I am using the serial connection on my AE-7000 to allow for communication with the Global Cache / iRule set-up. In essence, it allows for the IR connection. The 12V trigger can be used to do things like send a signal to open curtains, turn on equipment that has input trigger capabilities (amplifiers are what I am thinking here mostly), etc.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Do you have connectors for the RCA lines?


Yep, I have 10 or so RCA keystone inserts. I'm not sure I'll use them anywhere other than at the equipment rack though, I'm thinking about just having the speaker and RCA cords come straight out of the screen wall behind the speakers without wallplates, and just acoustical caulking the holes. At my last house the white wallplates always stood out against the wall color and I've kind of come to the conclusion that there's really no point to them until you need to run additional wires to that location, which hopefully I won't end up needing to do.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I am using the serial connection on my AE-7000 to allow for communication with the Global Cache / iRule set-up. In essence, it allows for the IR connection. The 12V trigger can be used to do things like send a signal to open curtains, turn on equipment that has input trigger capabilities (amplifiers are what I am thinking here mostly), etc.


That reminds me that I need 1/8" headphone style wire for the IR receiver in the front of the room, and to run to the projector. Using a tablet or a phone is a nice option for control in certain situations, like typing, but for general control while watching movies, nothing beats the old reliable Harmony IR remote in my case. I don't want to have to look at a remote to be able to use it during a movie.


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## MrAngles

Does anyone have an IR repeater system they recommend? I like the one I have, I think it's from cables2go, but the receiver has an LED that lights up when it gets a signal, and I'm not really digging the idea of having that in this room.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Yep, I have 10 or so RCA keystone inserts. I'm not sure I'll use them anywhere other than at the equipment rack though, I'm thinking about just having the speaker and RCA cords come straight out of the screen wall behind the speakers without wallplates, and just acoustical caulking the holes. At my last house the white wallplates always stood out against the wall color and I've kind of come to the conclusion that there's really no point to them until you need to run additional wires to that location, which hopefully I won't end up needing to do.


Sorry, I meant something like this:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=091-120


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Sorry, I meant something like this:
> 
> http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=091-120


Oh, no I'm just getting these pre-terminated RCAs.


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## ALMFamily

Ah - FWIW - just so you do not run into the same difficulty I did, I had a few runs of conduit that had 4 turns and it was really difficult to get as many wires through it as I should have been able to.

It was not until I cut in a couple pull boxes that it became easier.


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## MrAngles

Good point, I've been wanting to do this for a while, I drew up a quick A/V wiring diagram. The green is wire, and the red is conduit. I'm planning on putting in a drop ceiling (eventually) in all the areas outside of the theater and mechanical room, so I should only need conduit in the theater room's ceiling. The conduit are all straight runs until they take a 90 to enter the wall, and then they just hang loose inside the walls. I'm planning 1-1/2" conduit for all the speaker wire and RCA runs, and 2" conduit for HDMI and whatnot to the projector. I'm also going to leave a string running through each conduit to make it easier to run additional wires through them if necessary without pulling the existing wire out.










I'm pretty stoked about the plan because it should be pretty easy to run any additional/replacement wires to any of the existing wiring points.

The only thing I'm stressing about now is how to run power and A/V to the bar and riser, since I don't plan on having my riser meet the wall at any point. I've considering drilling a couple holes in the support pole and running it through that, or maybe cutting a channel into the Dri-core...


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Good point, I've been wanting to do this for a while, I drew up a quick A/V wiring diagram. The green is wire, and the red is conduit. I'm planning on putting in a drop ceiling (eventually) in all the areas outside of the theater and mechanical room, so I should only need conduit in the theater room's ceiling. The conduit are all straight runs until they take a 90 to enter the wall, and then they just hang loose inside the walls. I'm planning 1-1/2" conduit for all the speaker wire and RCA runs, and 2" conduit for HDMI and whatnot to the projector. I'm also going to leave a string running through each conduit to make it easier to run additional wires through them if necessary without pulling the existing wire out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty stoked about the plan because it should be pretty easy to run any additional/replacement wires to any of the existing wiring points.
> 
> The only thing I'm stressing about now is how to run power and A/V to the bar and riser, since I don't plan on having my riser meet the wall at any point. I've considering drilling a couple holes in the support pole and running it through that, or maybe cutting a channel into the Dri-core...


That looks much easier than what I ended up doing - good plan!

As far as the electrical to the bar / riser, if you cut a channel in the Dri-Core, how long would it need to be - i.e. at what point would you be running it from? I think this might work as long as you ensure it is seated properly below the surface of the Dri-Core so that foot traffic will not cause it to wear. But, I would try to make sure it is either a small length or in an area where you plan for the least amount of foot traffic.


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## MrAngles

I figure there would be less foot traffic behind the bar, which would be around 3 feet from the wall. I haven't tried this yet, but maybe I could pull the plastic piece off of a couple Dri-core panels, rout out a channel in the OSB, then glue the plastic back on? 12 gauge romex should be easy enough to do that way if I keep it flat, I don't know about HDMI though. The other thing I could do maybe is glue a layer of OSB on top of the Dri-core behind the bar creating kind of a mini-riser, while not affecting headroom back there too much, allowing me to cut a channel through the entire thickness of the Dri-core. Hopefully that wouldn't be too much of a trip hazard.

Of course all of these options make me a little nervous about what happens if the basement floods even a little bit...


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## ALMFamily

This is a bit out of my area of expertise, but could you use an outdoor electrical wire? Those have to be made to withstand the elements, so I would think it would be fine should the worst happen.

I would also check local code to see if there are any standards for running wire along the floor.


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## MrAngles

MrAngles said:


> The other thing I could do maybe is glue a layer of OSB on top of the Dri-core behind the bar creating kind of a mini-riser, while not affecting headroom back there too much, allowing me to cut a channel through the entire thickness of the Dri-core. Hopefully that wouldn't be too much of a trip hazard.


The more I think about it I think this is what I want to do, except I think I might skip the Dri-core under the riser altogether. Then I could use pressure treated 2x3s directly on the concrete to frame the part of the riser that is behind the bar, and caulk or sprayfoam around the edges to keep water from getting under there from under the Dri-core in the case of a flood (assuming that the flood doesn't originate from under the riser somehow). Then I'll have plenty of room to run wire, and I'll leave a lip in the OSB on top of the framing so I have a spot to put rope lights to keep people from tripping.

I've been reading a bunch of threads at AVS about people having to rip up their Dri-core after floods, so the idea of having the riser separate from the subfloor is really starting to appeal to me.


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## MrAngles

Projector arrived today! The blue screen looks pretty good now that I've focused it.










This is in the office, where I currently watch movies on the Panasonic 32" LCD.


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## MrAngles

I looked pretty silly yesterday driving around in the snow with eleven lengths of conduit sticking out of the window of my car. I also picked up a Jawstand. It was a great help holding up one end of conduit while I secured the other end to the joists, I imagine I'll find a bunch of other uses for it before this project is over.

I had a chance to watch Fringe on the 8000 last night, it put out an impressive picture despite being projected onto a beige wall. This being my first projector, I thought it was particularly interesting how much light and even image was reflected onto the white ceiling. Definitely a good case for a flat black ceiling.


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## MrAngles

The more I think about it the more I figure I'm going to want some lighting over the bar, behind the back row. If I want some more light in the room while watching a movie without turning the sconces up all the way, I assume that I'll want it to be in the back of the room, not to mention having something illuminating the bar counter might be nice if someone's eating or something back there. The projector will also be hanging above the bar, right behind and slightly below the soffit that is covering the support beam.

Here was my original plan, expertly illustrated in MS Paint, with very little relation to actual scale.









Here's what I'm thinking now:








I thought having a large soffit directly over and exactly the same dimensions as the bar counter would give me an area to put a few can lights, would make the support pole stand out less, give me a spot to put recessed power and A/V receptacles for the projector, and I could mount the projector right on the underside of the soffit.

To give some scale to the pictures, the bottom of the soffits will be about 6'10" from the floor, the sides of the bar will be about 3 feet from the side walls, and the soffits on the side walls in the back will be about 10" wide from the wall, leaving a 2'2" gap between the side wall soffits and the over-the-counter soffit. The counter and soffit above it will be about 2'3" deep.

Does it make sense to do it that way? Would it make more sense to make the soffit over the counter smaller than the counter itself, or perhaps have it go all the way across from the left wall to the right wall?


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## ALMFamily

I like the idea of having it the same size. The only concern I would have about not going all the way to the wall would be symmetry and potential issues with sound reflection up there. As it is in the rear of the room, I do not think it would be an issue, but thought it would be good to mention it. You might want to check with Bryan to see what he thinks.


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## MrAngles

The other thing about it being the same size I suppose is my ability (or inability) to actually get the bar to line up perfectly with it. It would be a lot easier I guess to make a straight line across the room...


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## MrAngles

If I never have to run 50 feet of 6 gauge 3-conductor wire between three levels behind drywall again it will be too soon.

That is all.


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## MrAngles

I haven't thought a lot about acoustics yet, but now that I'm getting ready to run wire for sconces, I guess I should figure out where my reflection points are first so I don't end up having a light in the way of where I need to put an absorber? Do I need to figure out reflection points based on all seating locations?


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> I haven't thought a lot about acoustics yet, but now that I'm getting ready to run wire for sconces, I guess I should figure out where my reflection points are first so I don't end up having a light in the way of where I need to put an absorber? Do I need to figure out reflection points based on all seating locations?


You should, yes. Are you familiar with the mirror trick?


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## MrAngles

Yeah I have the basic concept, I Imagine though that there's a pretty large area of first reflection points on each wall when dealing with two rows of three seats?


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## ALMFamily

I was actually surprised - it was rather small for mine. Now, due to the size of the screen mine are located roughly 10-12" from the side walls, but if I had wanted I could have covered relection points with two 2'x4' sheets of 703.


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## MrAngles

Anything else I should be keeping in mind for acoustics at this stage? For example to make my front wall dead should I be planning on an inch or two of absorption there on the entire wall, and therefore have the soffit stick out a couple more inches than the side ones?


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## ALMFamily

Yes, your entire front wall should be dead. If you can manage it, I would plan for super chunk bass absorbers in the corners. I actually put some 1" 703 on my screen frame where the framing was not and hung the screen directly on the wall so that I did not have to build the front wall out any more than it already was.

I did not face the front of my soffit with any absorption. To this point, I have not noticed any ill effects but I will defer to someone with a bit more knowledge there than I.


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## MrAngles

Oh, I didn't think about facing the soffit, I was just thinking that if my front and side soffits are built at the same depth and I add 2" of insulation to the entire front wall the front soffit won't appear match the depth of the side soffits anymore.

Should I add any special framing to the front wall to support the screen? I'm still not completely sure what size I'll end up making the screen, but I'm fairly certain that I'll want to have the screen as high as possible, with the frame pretty much touching the bottom of the soffit.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Oh, I didn't think about facing the soffit, I was just thinking that if my front and side soffits are built at the same depth and I add 2" of insulation to the entire front wall the front soffit won't appear match the depth of the side soffits anymore.
> 
> Should I add any special framing to the front wall to support the screen? I'm still not completely sure what size I'll end up making the screen, but I'm fairly certain that I'll want to have the screen as high as possible, with the frame pretty much touching the bottom of the soffit.


I put 2" of insulation on my side walls as well from floor to ceiling to where my middle column. If you plan on treating the side walls as well, you should be fine.

I really did not do anything special for mine. I cut two pieces of 1"x3"x8' piece of poplar down the middle with an angle creating a "French cleat" style for hanging it. I screwed one half to the back of the frame and the other half to the wall. If interested, I tried to document that part a bit more in my build thread.


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## Prof.

MrAngles said:


> Should I add any special framing to the front wall to support the screen? I'm still not completely sure what size I'll end up making the screen, but I'm fairly certain that I'll want to have the screen as high as possible, with the frame pretty much touching the bottom of the soffit.


It's not a good idea having your screen so high up!..For one, you will get reflections off the bottom of the soffit which will be very distracting and could have some effect on the perceived contrast..
The other problem with the screen so high up is that it will become uncomfortable looking up all the time..
Is there a particular reason why you want it so far up?


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## MrAngles

Prof. said:


> It's not a good idea having your screen so high up!..For one, you will get reflections off the bottom of the soffit which will be very distracting and could have some effect on the perceived contrast..
> The other problem with the screen so high up is that it will become uncomfortable looking up all the time..
> Is there a particular reason why you want it so far up?


Well, the finished soffit will end up being something like 6'8" off of the floor, and I'm planning to have a nearly 4 foot tall screen, add to that two inches on top and bottom of the screen for the frame, and the bottom of the screen will be only two feet four inches above the floor if I mount it as high as possible. My center channel is 9 inches tall, which allows it to be about 17 inches off the ground. Considering that I'm doing two rows of seating, this seems hardly like the optimal height for my center channel as it is, I highly doubt I'd want it _lower_ than that. 

I figured I'd paint the bottom of at least the front soffit black like the ceiling, if not the bottom of the entire soffit. If I still get reflections I guess I'd put some felt up there?


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## ALMFamily

I think you are in the same boat as I am as far as height of the front wall. I also mounted the frame close to the soffit (maybe half an inch away) and mine goes to about 3' from the floor (mine is 2.35:1).

After about 30 hours of movie time in the room, I have been pleased with where it hangs. I totally get that immersive feeling Prof talked about when I was wondering how to mount mine. As Prof says, you really do not want to have to look up to watch - I have to do that at times in my living room and my neck yells at me the next day. 

I suggest marking the mid point of your proposed screen on the wall and sitting down at your primary position. If the mid point is at your eye level or slightly above, you should be good to go.


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## MrAngles

That's good to hear that having the screen that high is working for you. At this point I'm expecting the back row to be my primary seating position due to the distance from the screen, so that's a factor as well.

The 50" plasma from the old home theater room in my old house is in my living room in an alcove above the fireplace which is perfect height for watching while standing in the kitchen, but it's horrible for sitting in a couch and watching a movie. This is the main reason I'm very motivated to get the theater room up and running.

Of course the screen size and position are still flexible for me.

One concern I have about the french cleat hanging method, how rigidly does the screen hang on the wall? With my current speakers I've had problems with vibration from picture frames and various other objects that weren't tied down, depending on how light the screen is I worry that it might move around a bit if it's only attached at the top.


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## ALMFamily

I am not sure what you used to build your frame, but with the poplar I used the screen had a bit of weight to it. I could still carry it myself, but it is by no means light.

I have had no issues with vibration and I have 2 PB-13 Ultras currently running along with the Salk Songtowers.


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## MrAngles

I used only my mind to build my frame so far. :cunning:


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> I used only my mind to build my frame so far. :cunning:


Ah! Well, then, I recommend checking the DIY screen forums sticky threads. Mech has a good write-up on building his.


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## Prof.

MrAngles said:


> One concern I have about the french cleat hanging method, how rigidly does the screen hang on the wall? With my current speakers I've had problems with vibration from picture frames and various other objects that weren't tied down, depending on how light the screen is I worry that it might move around a bit if it's only attached at the top.


The French cleat hangers work very well..
My 8'6" wide 2.39:1 AT screen is light enough for me to lift by myself and it just sits on a full length cleat at the top and only has quick release contact strips at the bottom, to stop any movement..


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## MrAngles

Prof. said:


> quick release contact strips at the bottom, to stop any movement..


Oh ok, like velcro or something?


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## Prof.

Industrial strength Velcro works fine..


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## MrAngles

When I was having this house built I asked for and was promised a "cable chase" from the attic to the basement for easily running low voltage wiring between the three levels of the house. What I discovered today was while there was indeed a central route for all the telephone and coax cable in the house, the cables were just spray foamed into the four top plates and bottom plates they go through, in addition to running horizontally between a couple 2nd floor floor joists, the cavity of which was also completely full of spray foam.

So, much of today was spent cutting holes in my garage wall and ceiling and my master bedroom closet, and conducting an excavation, but I now have cat6 cable running from the upstairs office to the basement!


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## bamabum

Running cable is no fun but it feels great when its done. The foam is usually due to new fire codes.


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## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> Running cable is no fun but it feels great when its done. The foam is usually due to new fire codes.


When it goes well, I really enjoy running cable because it's the closest thing to instant gratification you can get with this type of work. That foam is the bane of my existence though. I'm trying to come up with some kind of "cap" that I can throw over the spot where the cables come through to the basement that will allow me to pass code but I can just unscrew it later if I want to run more wire.

Here are some update pics-

Double drywall with Green Glue in between all the joists above the theater room. The conduit in this picture is for the left front speaker wire:









I cut up and double layered the insulation that was hanging on the walls and put it between the joists. Already the sound of the tv in the living room above the theater has been silenced. Through the massive amount of dust in this picture you can see string hanging down from the projector conduit and a few 14 gauge power cables. The yellow hoses hanging down are gas lines which I unclamped from the joists so I can ultimately reroute them to where they don't go through the theater room at all.









And finally my new sub panel in the mechanical room.









I wired up a few outlets last night after taking the pictures. I have all of the electrical lines run to the theater except for the sconces, partly because I haven't done the mirror trick yet to figure out where my first reflection points are, and partly because both myself and Menards have run out of 14-2 romex somehow.


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## ALMFamily

Looking good mate! :T


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## MrAngles

Thanks!


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## jgourlie

Dang that is really coming along nicely....can't wait to see this thing done


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## MrAngles

Does anyone here do their own carpet? With the storm season deadline for this room, I'm considering not putting the riser in yet, and just putting down some cheap carpet, then down the line I'll pull it up, put in the riser and put in nicer carpet. Then I have the stairs and the rest of the basement to deal with. I figure with all this going on I would save a good amount of money by buying the tools and figuring out how to put the carpet in myself. Putting the first carpet in the theater will kind of be a practice run, so that will be good. I also have a rental house that I'll likely need to replace the carpet in more than once, so it would be a good skill to have.


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## ALMFamily

That was one of the two things I decided not to try myself - of course, the decision was made easier by the fact that installation was free when I bought the carpet.


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## MrAngles

Free installation would be great. I haven't done a lot of shopping around at this stage, but the room is 300 square feet, so the installation will run at least $400 from any of the people I've asked.


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## ALMFamily

Not sure if you have a Coyle Carpet One by you, but that is who I went with.


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## jgourlie

Carpet and Drywall was the 2 things that I chose not to do myself....and imo that was the best choice. Some things are just better to pay somebody to do.


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## bamabum

I would think it depends if you need a seam. If no seam it is very strait forward. With a seam it is tricky and you need more tools. Buy carpet that is wider than the narrow measurement of the room and you won't need to seam. 

The hardest part will be carrying the large carpet through the house and down stairs. Sometimes delivery is worth the installation. You also will want a good size trailer so you don't have to try and fold the carpet.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Not sure if you have a Coyle Carpet One by you, but that is who I went with.


Turns out there's one in Urbandale, thanks for the tip, I'll have to check them out.



bamabum said:


> I would think it depends if you need a seam. If no seam it is very strait forward. With a seam it is tricky and you need more tools. Buy carpet that is wider than the narrow measurement of the room and you won't need to seam.
> 
> The hardest part will be carrying the large carpet through the house and down stairs. Sometimes delivery is worth the installation. You also will want a good size trailer so you don't have to try and fold the carpet.


Yeah getting a 14 foot long roll of carpet around the 180 degree turn at the bottom of the stairs is going to be an issue for me.


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## bamabum

180 turn would be rough. You would definitely scratch all the wall paint. They would probably seam smaller prices in the room.


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## MrAngles

It was hard enough getting 10-foot lengths of conduit down there. I have *no* idea how anyone will get a couch down there.


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## MrAngles

After working with 2x2s for a bit I'm highly considering using 2x4s for most of the soffit construction instead.


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## ALMFamily

Are you thinking about using your soffits for low end absorption? If so, I would stick with the 2x2s. 

Also, are you doing any lighting in your soffits? You are going to want to put insulation inside the soffits so they do not become big boom boxes and if you do not use ic rated lights, you will need some space around the light. Be sure to take that into account when measuring them up.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Are you thinking about using your soffits for low end absorption? If so, I would stick with the 2x2s.
> 
> Also, are you doing any lighting in your soffits? You are going to want to put insulation inside the soffits so they do not become big boom boxes and if you do not use ic rated lights, you will need some space around the light. Be sure to take that into account when measuring them up.


My soffits are all going to be covered in drywall, no lights in the soffits other than the over-the bar soffit. The rear and part of the left side soffit will have flex duct for HVAC in them, so I'll probably use 2x2s there, and I'll be doing a "frameless" soffit with 2x2s and OSB around the HVAC obstructions and the support beam, but the rest of it will just be stuffed with insulation and covered in two layers of drywall with green glue. The soffits on the exterior walls are an integral part of my soundproofing solution actually, creating the seal between the concrete walls and the ceiling, so with all that going on I don't think I'd be able to use them for absorption if I wanted to.


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## ALMFamily

With that being the case, I would also go with 2x4s. Much easier to hit with a screw.... :bigsmile:


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## MrAngles

Well, and they aren't usually completely warped.


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## ALMFamily

Oh so true. I cannot remember how long I spent going through Menards stack looking for something that was even CLOSE to be straight.


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## MrAngles

My biggest problem is that I picked some out that _seemed_ straight when I was looking through the bin, but in actuality they were only straight in comparison to how horrible all the others were. When I'm actually trying to put them up on the wall they seem more like those twisty iron stair rail spindles.


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## MrAngles

So, all the soundproofing company literature says to mount drywall horizontally, then do the second layer vertically. I understand the concept of staggering the seams, but in the case of walls that are 8 feet tall or shorter, what's the point? Why not just mount both layers vertically, staggering the seams of course, but eliminating all horizontal seams?


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## bamabum

I've found laying wood on the ground or on a 2x12 on its side is a good way to determine bend. A badly bent board will show the gaps. 2x12 on its side presents a great level edge in most cases.


----------



## robbo266317

MrAngles said:


> So, all the soundproofing company literature says to mount drywall horizontally, then do the second layer vertically. I understand the concept of staggering the seams, but in the case of walls that are 8 feet tall or shorter, what's the point? Why not just mount both layers vertically, staggering the seams of course, but eliminating all horizontal seams?


You could do that and start with a 1/2 sheet for the next layer so the joints overlap.

It depends on whether the studs line up neatly that way?


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> So, all the soundproofing company literature says to mount drywall horizontally, then do the second layer vertically. I understand the concept of staggering the seams, but in the case of walls that are 8 feet tall or shorter, what's the point? Why not just mount both layers vertically, staggering the seams of course, but eliminating all horizontal seams?


I did it exactly as you suggested. To me, if I did one horizontal and the next vertical, I have an intersection of seams. Granted, it is a 90 degree angle so it is not much, but if I can stagger them doing both horizontal and have no seam crossover, that seemed like the better way to go.


----------



## MrAngles

Thanks guys, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something critical.

I put one and a half sheets of drywall up last night! Not really a significant amount of progress, but most of the stuff I've been working on lately, wiring light switches, making measurements for soffits, writing up shopping lists, etc have not been particularly satisfying, visually, so finally I had to do something that LOOKED like I was making progress.


----------



## MrAngles

Ok, I did the mirror thing and it looks like I've got 1st reflections along most of the front 11 feet of the room, almost to where heads will be in the front row. I need to figure out lighting now. I've got one bright main overhead light for when the projector isn't on, I haven't decided if it should go in the dead center of the room, or the center of the "front section" of the room, meaning starting at the support beam. I'm leaning towards the center of the entire room, which would be right over the heads in the front row, keeping it further from the screen to avoid any possible reflections off the glass. Then I'm planning dimmable rope lights around the soffit, probably in crown molding, and wall sconces, all on the same dimmer. This zone will be for ambient lighting while the projector is on. I have assumed that the wall sconces would be better placed further back from the screen as well, and knowing where I'm going to have to treat reflections, I'm thinking I should just have two on each wall, even with, or just behind each row of seating. Then I'll also do can or puck lights in a soffit over the bar, right behind the back row, on a dimmer that is on the bar. Those could add a little more ambient lighting to the room if necessary, or light up the bar if somebody's eating back there or something without messing too much with the overall brightness of the room while watching a movie.

Does this make sense? Do I need more light towards the front of the room? I'll probably work on a lighting floorplan later tonight, but I don't have time at the moment.


----------



## MrAngles

Ok, here's what I'm talking about (except for the rope light):


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## ALMFamily

Placement of those lights looks good to me. The only other lighting I might suggest would be screen wash lights. They would serve two purposes - give you some light in the front of the room as well as accentuate the screen.


----------



## ALMFamily

Oh, and apologies, I have not had a chance to post those REW graphs yet. Busy kids basketball weekend.... On the plus side, my 9 year olds team won their first tournament! :bigsmile:


----------



## MrAngles

Thanks! And congrats! 

I guess I could tie screen wash lights in with the main overhead light. I'll probably leave that alone for now though for the sake of time and cost, and just run the wiring for it in the soffit to add lights later. I'd probably want to do can lights there rather than puck lights, so nothing sticks out over the screen, right?


----------



## bamabum

What is the general purpose for screen washout lights?


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## MrAngles

I always figured that they were just to look cool. Now that I see that I basically have a light "void" in the front of my room when the projector isn't on though, I can see their functional value.


----------



## MrAngles

If I can pull off the 9 and half feet these seats take up it's looking more and more they are the ones I'm gonna get. They are by Lane Upholstery.








I particularly like the illuminated cupholders.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Thanks! And congrats!
> 
> I guess I could tie screen wash lights in with the main overhead light. I'll probably leave that alone for now though for the sake of time and cost, and just run the wiring for it in the soffit to add lights later. I'd probably want to do can lights there rather than puck lights, so nothing sticks out over the screen, right?


If you get something with a low profile, I think you would be fine for clearance. I did something that has a very low profile and it covers just a bit of the black border.


----------



## MrAngles

MrAngles said:


> If I can pull off the 9 and half feet these seats take up it's looking more and more they are the ones I'm gonna get. They are by Lane Upholstery.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I particularly like the illuminated cupholders.


And here's a shot of my current theater seating for comparison :


----------



## MrAngles

It's going to be tight:








ALM, how wide are your rows of seats? Is two feet enough room for a walkway, or should I move the back row of seating closer to the left wall?


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## bamabum

2' was good in the seventies. Americans need 4' to squeeze through now. 

I have 2' planned on mine. It's not wheelchair accessible but restaurants use less between tables.


----------



## Prof.

I would keep it symmetrical..Anyone sitting in the left rear would get an unbalanced sound if it's nearer to the wall..2'1" is enough room to squeeze through..


----------



## MrAngles

Prof. said:


> I would keep it symmetrical..Anyone sitting in the left rear would get an unbalanced sound if it's nearer to the wall..2'1" is enough room to squeeze through..


As long as no one knocks the sconce off the wall. It's times like this that I'm glad that I used 1" furring strips for framing on the concrete walls rather than conventional framing.


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## ALMFamily

Agree with everyone else - 2' is fine. The walking space in the back of mine will end up being 23" after I do the 4" treatment on the back wall.

Good thing I am tall and skinny! (Well, mostly anyway )

And, the chairs look comfy!


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## MrAngles

I appreciate the feedback. I also realized that since the seats are curved a bit it's only really tight at the corner of the seat.

Today has been Z-Wave research day for me. Ultimately I'd like to get lights and thermostats on IP control with something like this, but as far as I can tell I still won't be able to use that unit to control a Z-Wave dimmer with a Harmony remote. As far as I can figure, the only way to control Z-Wave dimmers with an IR signal is to use a PC, which is not the route I want to go. Can someone point me in the right direction if that's not actually the case?


----------



## MrAngles

Looks like this is what I need: http://store.homeseer.com/store/Leviton-VRCS4-M0Z-Z-Wave-4-Button-Scene-Controller-P611.aspx

If I'm reading it correctly it controls the one zone it's hardwired to, and up to three other Z-Wave dimmers wirelessly, and enables infrared control for all of this. If it all works as planned, I guess I can install this unit into the a/v rack, controlling the sconces and rope lights, and install a $40 Z-Wave dimmer at the entrance to the theater for the overhead light, which can also be controlled by IR, through the unit in the A/V rack. It would also leave my options open for a little expansion in the future. 

Unfortunately though I can't seem to find a black Z-Wave dimmer for in the theater...


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## MrAngles

Argh, I feel like I'm losing my mind. After doing more research on Z-Wave stuff, I've figured out that even with the IR input on that in-wall controller, you still need a master controller to keep everything inline, which is either a separate RF remote, a proprietary networked box, or a PC peripheral. All of these options are either more expensive or more complicated than I want to deal with for a simple overhead light. So I'm tabling this for now and will just use a normal light switch for the overhead light.

The next development is that my wife says she doesn't want a riser. My first reaction to that was "whatever, it's not your room anyway" (in my head, of course), but now I'm considering it. In my first house I had a couch and a pair of seats from my '92 Dodge Daytona in the living room, and those seats were so comfortable that I preferred to sit in them rather than the couch. So I'm thinking I'll table the riser for now. It will save on time and money while I'm working to meet the storm season deadline, will keep my seating options open for a while, and I'll have a working theater to use when figuring out riser height, etc later on.


----------



## MrAngles

It took a while to find the seats online since the model wasn't labeled, but it looks like these are the ones I was looking at at Homemakers: http://www.theaterseatstore.com/lane-endzone-222-theater-seat-special-sale Looks like the local price is good, even with tax, and Homemakers can order the straight row, which will save me a foot on the width, which will be great.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> It took a while to find the seats online since the model wasn't labeled, but it looks like these are the ones I was looking at at Homemakers: http://www.theaterseatstore.com/lane-endzone-222-theater-seat-special-sale Looks like the local price is good, even with tax, and Homemakers can order the straight row, which will save me a foot on the width, which will be great.


Good find - those are nice looking seats. I hate to bring this up, but my wife would not let me buy any seats unless she could sit in it to make sure she liked it. Did you have a chance to try them out?


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Good find - those are nice looking seats. I hate to bring this up, but my wife would not let me buy any seats unless she could sit in it to make sure she liked it. Did you have a chance to try them out?


Yep, she sat in all the seats they had at Homemakers with me, and agreed that these are the most comfortable. She's not too particular about the seats though, she wants a couch that she can lay on. That's going to be the next conversation I have with her, she can choose either a couch in the front row and a riser with the theater seating in the back, or no riser and no couch. I think what she really wants is couches or a sectional with seating on the wall, but I have to draw the line somewhere.


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## bamabum

I have a similar situation. I'm now going with pallisar chase couch and theater seats for the second row on a riser. Pallisar makes nice couches for the front row with a chase and power reclining seats. Ordering from the same company will ensure you can get both in the same fabric.


----------



## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> I have a similar situation. I'm now going with pallisar chase couch and theater seats for the second row on a riser. Pallisar makes nice couches for the front row with a chase and power reclining seats. Ordering from the same company will ensure you can get both in the same fabric.


Well she quickly chose having a riser over not having a couch, so that decision is made. The theater seats are going to be leather, and the couch will be fabric of some kind, so there won't be any matching involved. We really didn't plan on getting a reclining couch, but I'm not sure how we're going to get any couch that doesn't break down into sections around the 180 degree turn at the foot of the basement stairs. 

Anyway, picture update, I got the wall sconces in, and I got most of the clips and channel in.








Unfortunately at the time I ordered the clips I hadn't figured out exactly what I was going to do with my soffits, so now I am 37 DC01 clips short and I have a bunch of extra DC03 clips that I won't need.


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## ALMFamily

Are those the same as the whisper clips? I have some extra of those here......


----------



## MrAngles

Sorry, not DC01, I meant IB-1 clips. I went with the cheaper ones at Ted's suggestion, these ones:








I think they have the same overall height, but I'm not sure if using both types of clips on the same ceiling would work. Hopefully I'll get the chance to call the soundproofing company tomorrow and I'll ask about that to see if that's an option. I'm still within my 90 days so I'll definitely be returning the extra IB-3 clips (the right angle ones), since they were $5 each and I think I have 27 of them left over.


----------



## MrAngles

I need to figure out where to put my smoke detector, and my outlets for the soffit light tray. I've been searching the build threads for an hour now, I swear I've seen a picture of an outlet set into kind of an alcove in the side of a soffit, but I can't find it anywhere. Also, should I just put one outlet in one side of the soffit, or one on each side?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> I need to figure out where to put my smoke detector, and my outlets for the soffit light tray. I've been searching the build threads for an hour now, I swear I've seen a picture of an outlet set into kind of an alcove in the side of a soffit, but I can't find it anywhere. Also, should I just put one outlet in one side of the soffit, or one on each side?


I put my smoke detector right above the entrance. That way, I did not have to run the electrical too far into the room.

I only put one outlet up there. I did not get a picture of the outlet specifically, but if you look at the first photo on page 48 you can see the right side of where my projector is. The outlet is on the left side just visible over the top of the tray.


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## MrAngles

Thanks. Is the smoke detector on the bottom of the soffit, or the face?

I do remember that your rope light outlet is in with your projector, my projector will be below the soffit though, due to the support beam, so I'm thinking about an outlet set back a bit from the face of the soffit in one of the rear corners of the front section of the room. I'm not sure how far back I could/ should go.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Thanks. Is the smoke detector on the bottom of the soffit, or the face?
> 
> I do remember that your rope light outlet is in with your projector, my projector will be below the soffit though, due to the support beam, so I'm thinking about an outlet set back a bit from the face of the soffit in one of the rear corners of the front section of the room. I'm not sure how far back I could/ should go.


Neither actually - I have a small area when you walk in the room that the soffit does not extend to - the detector is mounted to the ceiling there. Does your soffit go around the entire outside of the room?

The outlet is actually not in with the projector - it is on the face of the soffit. It has been a while since I did an update to my build thread - I will snap a photo of where it is and post it today.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Neither actually - I have a small area when you walk in the room that the soffit does not extend to - the detector is mounted to the ceiling there. Does your soffit go around the entire outside of the room?
> 
> The outlet is actually not in with the projector - it is on the face of the soffit. It has been a while since I did an update to my build thread - I will snap a photo of where it is and post it today.


Yeah this is the soffit plan:








On the right side of the screen the soffit covers up various ducts, on the screen wall it covers a drain pipe, and the rear and left sides are duct mufflers. I figure either of the duct muffler soffits are the best spots to put it, so far I think the least distracting option is to paint a smoke detector black and put it on the front of the rear soffit behind the bar, but I'm not sure.


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## bamabum

I hadn't though about my smoke detector yet. Now I need to reroute the electrical wire to it based upon your thoughts.

I think the back of the room is the best place. It will be the place where the green or red led battery light is least distracting. I might try to find one that doesn't have a light when hard wired or use some spray paint to cover that annoying light.


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## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> I hadn't though about my smoke detector yet. Now I need to reroute the electrical wire to it based upon your thoughts.
> 
> I think the back of the room is the best place. It will be the place where the green or red led battery light is least distracting. I might try to find one that doesn't have a light when hard wired or use some spray paint to cover that annoying light.


Yeah I'm pretty sure I'll just spray paint the whole thing black, light and all. After all the inspections, in case there's some sort of code problem with that.

Speaking of code, I got a 100% on my home electrical test today, which is great since I've already done all the rough electrical work, heheh. I think my wife would have had a problem if I failed after putting it all in.


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## bamabum

Congrats on the passed inspection!

I had a 30 min argument with a contractor about why you cant splice wires in the wall or put 3 sets of 10 lights on a single breaker. He still claims yellow over sized wire nuts are best for all wire sizes. When I asked why they make different colors his answer was for all the stupid different colored people. I have still yet met a blue person.

Things are different in Alabama....


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## ALMFamily

Back left corner IMO for the smoke detector.

Here is the snapshot of the outlet for my soffit tray:



















I also promised to post REW results for my mains to show that dip and the result when meshed with the subs. For some reason, I never saved the L/R only tests. Since I will be redoing them all now that I have the 3rd sub, I will make sure to save and post them.


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## bamabum

IMHO, Mount to the back of the room on the ceiling but not in the corner to let the smoke in......

I laugh when I see a smoke detector vertical on the wall or on a lower soffit. Light a cigarette/match and watch where the smoke goes. You can burn half the front of the room before the smoke will get to the back soffit and longer before a vertical detector is hit.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Here is the snapshot of the outlet for my soffit tray:


Okay I remember that now. How tall is the lip on that light tray? I'm just going to do crown molding and throw the rope light in there, I'm not sure it would be tall enough to really conceal an outlet like that. On the other hand, it would be just above and only a couple inches behind the back row, so I'm not sure anyone would see it anyway.



ALMFamily said:


> I also promised to post REW results for my mains to show that dip and the result when meshed with the subs. For some reason, I never saved the L/R only tests. Since I will be redoing them all now that I have the 3rd sub, I will make sure to save and post them.


No worries, I'm still really interested in seeing that, but like I said, I'm probably not prepared to understand it until get finished with construction and can put the time into figuring out acoustics.


----------



## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> Things are different in Alabama....


Wow! I'm from Portland Oregon, so people are different out there too, but pretty much in the opposite direction of what you're describing.



bamabum said:


> IMHO, Mount to the back of the room on the ceiling but not in the corner to let the smoke in......
> 
> I laugh when I see a smoke detector vertical on the wall or on a lower soffit. Light a cigarette/match and watch where the smoke goes. You can burn half the front of the room before the smoke will get to the back soffit and longer before a vertical detector is hit.


Well, I'm not so worried about fires starting in the theater room as I am about fires starting elsewhere in the house and me not having a clue until it's too late due to being in a completely sealed room. I'm hoping not to cut another hole in the ceiling.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Okay I remember that now. How tall is the lip on that light tray? I'm just going to do crown molding and throw the rope light in there, I'm not sure it would be tall enough to really conceal an outlet like that. On the other hand, it would be just above and only a couple inches behind the back row, so I'm not sure anyone would see it anyway.
> 
> No worries, I'm still really interested in seeing that, but like I said, I'm probably not prepared to understand it until get finished with construction and can put the time into figuring out acoustics.


The lip is 4" tall. I made them that high after following Profs thread about redoing his soffits. Having them closer to the ceiling gave a nice defined light pattern on the ceiling from the light tray - if I went lower, it diffused the light much more.

No worries - I am doing the measurements and probably am not prepared to understand them....


----------



## MrAngles

Well I may very likely be the only one who cares about this, but I'm posting pics of it anyway. This is my sound isolated fan box and support:
















I probably won't ever even find a ceiling fan that is low enough profile to use in this room, but in case I ever do, I have it covered. Each of the IB-3 brackets is rated up to 36 pounds, so it should hold plenty of weight, and the 2x4 fan support is nearly an inch away from the floor joists on either side. Along with the putty pad around the fan box it should not only keep sound transmission from going through the fan into the framing, but also cut down on the noise of the fan itself.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Well I may very likely be the only one who cares about this, but I'm posting pics of it anyway. This is my sound isolated fan box and support:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I probably won't ever even find a ceiling fan that is low enough profile to use in this room, but in case I ever do, I have it covered. Each of the IB-3 brackets is rated up to 36 pounds, so it should hold plenty of weight, and the 2x4 fan support is nearly an inch away from the floor joists on either side. Along with the putty pad around the fan box it should not only keep sound transmission from going through the fan into the framing, but also cut down on the noise of the fan itself.


Neat idea! Kudos on thinking of that ahead of time - I never even thought of doing something like that.


----------



## MrAngles

Thanks! Actually I remember now that the product page for the IB-3s mentioned isolating ceiling fans, so I must not be the only one who's done this, but I definitely haven't seen any pics of it.


----------



## MrAngles

So the inspector says I need more outlets, I was hoping that bar and riser outlets would count, but that's a no go, so my foot-thick walls get to have some more holes in them. I may end up needing more putty pads now...


----------



## MrAngles

So here's my latest dilemma. I'm putting my HVAC flex ducts into soffits with double drywall on all sides to serve as "duct mufflers" like this:








When screwing 2x2 framing for a soffit into a metal furring channel through two sheets of 5/8" drywall, I calculate that I need at least 3-1/4" fine thread screws in order to get a decent grip on the channel. Am I wrong? If not, where do they exist, because I don't see them at Menards or Home Depot. The only other option I can think of is to drill a 3/8" deep countersink hole in the 2x2 for the screw to sit in so I can use shorter screws.


----------



## ALMFamily

Nope, you are not wrong. I could not find any either so I ended up using construction screws - I used 3 1/2" ones. I fretted about it for a bit until I asked a friend who works in remodel construction and he said it should be fine.


----------



## bamabum

the key would be to have a screw that doesn't rip the paper and is able sink the head below the drywall surface. If the screws have a angled neck to flat head and you dont run them home to hard you will be fine for the mud bed.

many types will suffice


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Nope, you are not wrong. I could not find any either so I ended up using construction screws - I used 3 1/2" ones. I fretted about it for a bit until I asked a friend who works in remodel construction and he said it should be fine.


The gold ones? I just worry about the coarse threads on those slipping on the metal track. I would think that you would have no problem since your entire first layer is OSB, you could have probably just screwed your 2x2s into that and not worried about the hat channel and been fine. I'm not planning on doing that for my whole ceiling in order to keep costs down.


----------



## ALMFamily

Probably true - OSB did have it's plusses. 

I checked out Grainger and it looks like 3" would be the longest you could get without having to spend $100 for a pack of 1000. You could contact them to see if they could get you some 3 1/2" in a smaller quantity.


----------



## bamabum

I've used the deck screws at Home Depot for similar with drywall. $9 will get you 50 and $30 will get you 200 if my memory is right.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I checked out Grainger and it looks like 3" would be the longest you could get without having to spend $100 for a pack of 1000. You could contact them to see if they could get you some 3 1/2" in a smaller quantity.


That's a negative. It's too bad 3-1/2" is too long to use for anything else... I'm thinking drilling countersink holes and using 3" screws is going to be the best route in the areas where I'm not using OSB. What length screws did you use on your 2nd layer? I was using 1-5/8" screws between the joists and it seemed like they were a bit short in a couple spots, I'm thinking 2" will be better but I'm having trouble finding those locally as well.


----------



## ALMFamily

I used 2 1/2 screws - of course, they were construction screws so that probably is not going to be much help.....


----------



## MrAngles

Oh you used construction screws for all of your drywall? How deep is a hat channel anyway? For some reason I thought 2-1/2" would almost go all the way through to the clip.


----------



## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> I've used the deck screws at Home Depot for similar with drywall. $9 will get you 50 and $30 will get you 200 if my memory is right.


You used deck screws going into hat channel? Maybe I need to stop worrying so much.


----------



## bamabum

Let me clarify. I used deck screws through drywall into wood and then through sheet metal.

My statement is they are long, affordable, go through many materials and won't tear the drywall paper if tightened properly.


----------



## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> Let me clarify. I used deck screws through drywall into wood and then through sheet metal.
> 
> My statement is they are long, affordable, go through many materials and won't tear the drywall paper if tightened properly.


Gotcha. Well in this case tearing the paper isn't my concern, as my outside surface will be the wood of the 2x2 for the soffit frame. My biggest concern is getting the appropriate grip on the 25 gauge metal, and I'm worried that coarse-thread screws won't cut it when it comes to a approx 10"x18" soffit with 1-1/4" of drywall on it.


----------



## MrAngles

Out of nowhere, and to my surprise, my wife mentioned wanting a star ceiling.

I don't see how I could possibly put one in and finish getting the room comfortable by storm season, is there a way to set myself up to where I could add one later? I've really liked what I've seen of painted ones, which would be easy to add later, but I highly doubt I'd want a star ceiling on while I'm actively watching a movie, how long do they stay charged for? Or maybe the conversation should start with how much one costs (mural or fiberoptic). I think she's only interested in it as a lark, so if it's a big chunk of cash, we can probably just rule it out altogether.


----------



## ALMFamily

I do not know too much about a painted ceiling - I would check with Mario (mcascio) as I know he did his painted.

As far as fiber optic, since you are doing soffits you can really add one at any time. I probably spent a total of about $600 to construct mine - and it is one of the zones on my GE so I can turn it off if necessary. However, I have found that I really enjoy having it on during movies - makes it feel like a drive in movie.


----------



## MrAngles

Okay so I'll be able to just run power from the mechanical room through the soffit, and the star ceiling just gets mounted a couple inches lower than the existing ceiling? Sounds like another reason to do OSB for the first layer...


ALMFamily said:


> However, I have found that I really enjoy having it on during movies - makes it feel like a drive in movie.


That's a good point, I didn't think of that.


----------



## mcascio

MrAngles said:


> Out of nowhere, and to my surprise, my wife mentioned wanting a star ceiling.
> 
> I don't see how I could possibly put one in and finish getting the room comfortable by storm season, is there a way to set myself up to where I could add one later? I've really liked what I've seen of painted ones, which would be easy to add later, but I highly doubt I'd want a star ceiling on while I'm actively watching a movie, how long do they stay charged for? Or maybe the conversation should start with how much one costs (mural or fiberoptic). I think she's only interested in it as a lark, so if it's a big chunk of cash, we can probably just rule it out altogether.


I actually leave my black lights on to help the painted stars show up more during movies. It provides a nice little ambient light within the room (along with the step lights) so people can move more freely in/out. 

I don't find it distracting at all. Figure around $1100 for a 12x12 painted area.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Okay so I'll be able to just run power from the mechanical room through the soffit, and the star ceiling just gets mounted a couple inches lower than the existing ceiling? Sounds like another reason to do OSB for the first layer...That's a good point, I didn't think of that.


Not necessary to do the first layer as OSB for this. What I did was make diy cleats - three to a panel. I positioned them so that I could lift the panel and slide them in while also making sure the end of the panel butted up to the soffit. I ran them perpendicular to the res channel and screwed the cleats through both layers and into the channel so I knew the weight was supported.

I ended up with a small gap in one corner doing it this way. I just ripped a strip and wrapped it in the cloth and put that in. Should I need to bring them down, I can just remove that strip.

If you would like, check out page 45-47 in my build - that is the star ceiling part.


----------



## MrAngles

mcascio said:


> I actually leave my black lights on to help the painted stars show up more during movies. It provides a nice little ambient light within the room (along with the step lights) so people can move more freely in/out.
> 
> I don't find it distracting at all. Figure around $1100 for a 12x12 painted area.


Thanks! Is the black light rope lighting?




ALMFamily said:


> Not necessary to do the first layer as OSB for this. What I did was make diy cleats - three to a panel. I positioned them so that I could lift the panel and slide them in while also making sure the end of the panel butted up to the soffit. I ran them perpendicular to the res channel and screwed the cleats through both layers and into the channel so I knew the weight was supported.
> 
> I ended up with a small gap in one corner doing it this way. I just ripped a strip and wrapped it in the cloth and put that in. Should I need to bring them down, I can just remove that strip.
> 
> If you would like, check out page 45-47 in my build - that is the star ceiling part.


Thank you. I've read through your entire thread a couple times now, but it's tough to find specific sections. Using the labels you made in a search really help, but the thread is super huge now.


----------



## ALMFamily

No problem. At some point, I should figure out a better way to catalog it so it is easier to find things in it.....

And, I will say, when I first started thinking about a constructed star ceiling, the task seemed pretty daunting. Once I finished, I discovered it was a lot easier than I thought it would be. And, the effect is well worth the time.


----------



## MrAngles

So I got some more work done last night:

















And then I got no more work done at all:









You can't tell in the pictures, but the last sheet of drywall only got two screws in it before I ran upstairs to get the projector.

I was messing around with different screen sizes, including a floor to ceiling 16x9 image that was pretty awesome. My current plan has the projector 19 feet away from the screen, which I was a little worried about based on the numbers in this table:








Which basically says that at 18'10" the smallest 2.35:1 image you can project is 120", which doesn't give me much wiggle room if I end up finding that to be too big. In practice though, I was able to zoom in quite a bit smaller than that without any apparent issues, so I guess I'm ok?


----------



## bamabum

All progress will be stopped now : )

I am going to bet that projector gets put up and down 200 times during this process. I find it great to enjoy the room as it is being built. Gives a little more motivation.

with a 2.35 that big... how big is the 16x9 at same zoom? Or do you have automatic zoom? Or do you have a A Lens? One thing that was helpful to me was to map out the back row distance and verify the visibility over the front row with a projected image on the wall. It caused me to do a little bit of last minute changes before it was too late.


----------



## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> All progress will be stopped now : )
> 
> I am going to bet that projector gets put up and down 200 times during this process. I find it great to enjoy the room as it is being built. Gives a little more motivation.
> 
> with a 2.35 that big... how big is the 16x9 at same zoom? Or do you have automatic zoom? Or do you have a A Lens? One thing that was helpful to me was to map out the back row distance and verify the visibility over the front row with a projected image on the wall. It caused me to do a little bit of last minute changes before it was too late.


I have a Panasonic AE8000u which has lens memory, so I'll have a constant image height of 4 feet, with a 9.4 foot wide 2.35 image and about a 7 foot wide 16x9 image, which I guess would make the screen 122 inches. I didn't measure the image size in the picture, but I think it's about that size, and it didn't seem too big from where the front row is going to be. I did zoom it out to this size for fun though:









As far as the back row goes, I'm almost completely sure at this point that I'm not going to put a riser in right away. I need to get the room usable as soon as possible for storm season, and I feel like I'll be able to determine my riser height and width a lot more confidently once I have my seats and have had some time to watch a few movies and be sure about the position and size of the screen.


----------



## ALMFamily

Honestly, I think you will be fine at about 120" or so. I do not find mine too big, and I am about 8.5 feet away from a 103" 2.35 screen.

And, I agree with Al - really nice to have the motivation of seeing a movie.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Honestly, I think you will be fine at about 120" or so. I do not find mine too big, and I am about 8.5 feet away from a 103" 2.35 screen.
> 
> And, I agree with Al - really nice to have the motivation of seeing a movie.


I think you're right, I was considering putting more conduit in so I could mount the projector directly above the back row if necessary, but after trying it out I don't think it's necessary. Your projector is 19-20 feet from the screen isn't it, in the rear soffit? Why do you think the Panasonic chart says you shouldn't project less than an 120" 2.40 screen from that distance?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> I think you're right, I was considering putting more conduit in so I could mount the projector directly above the back row if necessary, but after trying it out I don't think it's necessary. Your projector is 19-20 feet from the screen isn't it, in the rear soffit? Why do you think the Panasonic chart says you shouldn't project less than an 120" 2.40 screen from that distance?


No, I am about 15.5' away - 16' tops. And, I am not quite sure why it does that - perhaps it is trying to stay at a certain FL rating for the distance?


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> No, I am about 15.5' away - 16' tops. And, I am not quite sure why it does that - perhaps it is trying to stay at a certain FL rating for the distance?


So did you end up moving it closer because of the screen size? 

Here's my newest issue. I wasn't sure exactly what the height of my soffits would be after subtracting the height of the hat channel so I built the 2x4 ladder for the bottom section first, since that was easier to measure. 








Now I have a perfect bottom section, with six inches above it. There's no way for me to screw in a 6" tall section above it, since that only leaves 3" clearance. Do I need to scrap the ladder I've built and put the side together before the bottom?


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## bamabum

Either way you will need to tie into the rafters above for strength. From the picture its slightly hard to tell. But you can run 2 x 4s vertically and tie into the ladder steps to the joists. Just angle shoot nails or screw via pre-drilled hole son an angle. If you want more support It use simple cheap deck cleats that are made to tie in 2x4s to joists. 

I didn't use all the sound clips and rails so I will be interested on how others recommend this since you are trying to keep from connecting the joists to the inner room and drywall. Or will you run the sound clips down and around the soffit?

Are you also saying there is only 3" gap above the ladder in between the ceiling? Or what is the "3 clearance" problem?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> So did you end up moving it closer because of the screen size?
> 
> Here's my newest issue. I wasn't sure exactly what the height of my soffits would be after subtracting the height of the hat channel so I built the 2x4 ladder for the bottom section first, since that was easier to measure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I have a perfect bottom section, with six inches above it. There's no way for me to screw in a 6" tall section above it, since that only leaves 3" clearance. Do I need to scrap the ladder I've built and put the side together before the bottom?


No, I did it merely because I wanted to "hide" the projector as best I could and not have to worry about making holes in my ceiling for the mount. I brought a ladder into the room and played with the location quite a bit to make sure I could zoom to the screen size I wanted.

I would suggest using 2x2s for the pieces that screw to the channel on the ceiling and the side walls - it really is not necessary to have 2x4s there IMO. Then, I would construct the side piece first with no piece along the bottom. Screw that piece to the ceiling.

Next, construct the bottom - but turn the 2x4s so they lay horizontal instead of vertical. Then, screw the outside of the ladder up into the vertical supports from the piece you already screwed to the ceiling. Last, throw a level on the bottom and screw the other side to the studs of the wall.

If you want, I do have quite a few pics of how I managed them - they start at post #334.


----------



## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> Are you also saying there is only 3" gap above the ladder in between the ceiling? Or what is the "3 clearance" problem?


there is a 6" gap from the ladder to the ceiling. My plan was to build another ladder (which would be 6" tall, from the top of the bottom ladder to the ceiling) out of 2x2s or 2x4s, three inches would be taken up by the sides or "rails" of the ladder so to speak (1.5" for each 2x4), leaving the "rungs" at three inches. I could screw the two ladders together at an angle, but at the top I'm screwing into 25 gauge steel hat channel, and I'm sure that needs to be a straight drive through the steel. 

For the decoupling, I have hat channel running perpendicular to the soffits every 24". Halfway between each of those, I plan to attach the soffit to the joists with an IB-3 clip (the right angle clips that I used in the wall framing).


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I would suggest using 2x2s for the pieces that screw to the channel on the ceiling and the side walls - it really is not necessary to have 2x4s there IMO. Then, I would construct the side piece first with no piece along the bottom. Screw that piece to the ceiling.
> 
> Next, construct the bottom - but turn the 2x4s so they lay horizontal instead of vertical. Then, screw the outside of the ladder up into the vertical supports from the piece you already screwed to the ceiling. Last, throw a level on the bottom and screw the other side to the studs of the wall.
> 
> If you want, I do have quite a few pics of how I managed them - they start at post #334.


Ok that makes a lot of sense. The reason I used 2x4s is because I have so little confidence in my ability to make the soffits straight. The 2x4s are much easier to keep straight by using two screws at each connection, and I can wrestle them into position. For this section I think I'm going to just take the end off the ladder and replace it with a 2x2, and do the side piece like you said. Hopefully having one under my belt will get me comfortable enough to do the rest in 2x2s. I had no hesitation framing the walls, but the soffits are entirely foreign territory to me, and the OCD in me starts out any time I try to deal with the 2x2s.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Ok that makes a lot of sense. The reason I used 2x4s is because I have so little confidence in my ability to make the soffits straight. The 2x4s are much easier to keep straight by using two screws at each connection, and I can wrestle them into position. For this section I think I'm going to just take the end off the ladder and replace it with a 2x2, and do the side piece like you said. Hopefully having one under my belt will get me comfortable enough to do the rest in 2x2s. I had no hesitation framing the walls, but the soffits are entirely foreign territory to me, and the OCD in me starts out any time I try to deal with the 2x2s.


Understand completely - when I started, I had no idea how to construct the soffits. The way I found that worked best was to stay ahead on the side pieces - it allowed me to get things a bit straighter. And, I had a nice trusty level in my pocket at all times. 

That said, do not fret about it too much. If they are slightly off, it should be fine as the 5/8" drywall should keep its integrity pretty well. Mine are not completely straight, but you would never know it unless I pointed it out.


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## bamabum

We used a string very tight on nails from the ends of the room. If you do the fur downs first it will help as well.


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## MrAngles

Okay I have both the side piece and bottom piece put together and they look great, just waiting on a trip to home depot for 2" fine thread screws to go into the hat channel. I picked up a box earlier today just to leave it in the cart apparently... I appreciate you guys helping me out so quickly on a weekend, and sorry if my posts were unclear, I'm sleep deprived and posting from a phone today. Time to have a mountain dew and get back to work.


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## ALMFamily

No worries mate - glad to be able to help. Get some sleep! :bigsmile:


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## MrAngles

Two sections of soffit are up!









I don't see a lot of pictures of this, so here's more detail on decoupling the soffit from the ceiling:








So as I said before, the hat channel that will hold the ceiling drywall up is perpendicular to the soffit, running 24" apart, and I just put the clips at the end of the channel right where the soffit would hang, and used 2" fine thread drywall screws to hold the top section to the channel. The Soundproofing company talks about how to hang a soffit on a single parallel hat channel by placing a clip on every joist to support the extra weight, but the literature doesn't mention what to do if the channel is perpendicular to the soffit. In this case I placed an IB-3 clip in between each run of hat channel, so the soffit is supported every 12 inches. I measured where the IB-3s would need to go first and used #10 machine screws with washers and lock nuts to secure the clips to the top of the soffit, then after the soffit was in place and screwed into the channel, I screwed the IB-3s into the joists. When I was done, I was able to do pull ups on the soffit.

It took a while to figure this out, and after measuring fifteen times and cutting once (then measuring again and cutting again), I'm very happy with how it turned out. I really appreciate ALMFamily and Bamabum for helping me out!


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## bamabum

Very nice!


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## ALMFamily

Yeah, that looks great mate - and, if you can do pull-ups on it, not only will it hold the weight - you are in much better shape than I am! :bigsmile:


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Yeah, that looks great mate - and, if you can do pull-ups on it, not only will it hold the weight - you are in much better shape than I am! :bigsmile:


Well... I may have exaggerated when I put an s at the end of pull-up.


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## MrAngles

We went to the Des Moines home and garden show yesterday and there was a painted star ceiling booth there, of all things. This guy paints them from $2 to $3 a square foot based on complexity, which seems like a pretty sweet deal, it should come to less than $400 for my space for a simple star field pattern.


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## ALMFamily

Wow, that really is a great price. And, since you have seen examples of his work, you know what to expect. Sounds like a good way to go.....


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Wow, that really is a great price. And, since you have seen examples of his work, you know what to expect. Sounds like a good way to go.....


Part of what he does when he give people a quote I guess is he brings a couple panels to the house so you can see what it looks like in your space, which is a pretty cool idea.


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## MrAngles

More pics, the entire right side soffit for the front section of the room is framed. (Ignore the natural gas line going through the soffit, I still need to move that but my wife won't let me do it when the family is home):
















Here's the air return, it's the largest obstruction coming into the room. I tried to frame it as closely as possible while allowing it room to expand depending on temperature:
















It leaves just over 24" of unframed space, so I'll be using 5/8" OSB for structure and as my first layer of mass there, using a variation of the "frameless soffit" method.


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## ALMFamily

Looks nice and straight - well done!

I am sure you know this already, but when you start putting layers up, make sure to leave a slight gap between the studs and the layer you put up if you have spots with no channel.

Also, leave a gap between the cement floor and your layers and plan to fill that with the soundproof silicone.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Looks nice and straight - well done!
> 
> I am sure you know this already, but when you start putting layers up, make sure to leave a slight gap between the studs and the layer you put up if you have spots with no channel.
> 
> Also, leave a gap between the cement floor and your layers and plan to fill that with the soundproof silicone.


Thank you!

The section I put up last night is about 1/8"shorter than the sections I put up over the weekend and it's really bugging me. Once I put the OSB and sheetrock on I'll forget about it, I'm sure.

Thanks for the tip, I did plan to do that, I've been using 3/8" laths(sp?) on the floor and in the corners on the wall sheetrock, and figured I'd do the same on the soffits, even on the top where it would hit the hat channel.

What do you think I should do for insulation around the air return, there's anywhere from a half inch to an inch and a half of space between the duct and where the OSB will be, should I put a little fiberglass in there, or should I be concerned about the fiberglass touching both the OSB and the duct, causing slight sound transfer?


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## ALMFamily

I would not put anything around it - like you said, I would be concerned with transference. I have much the same setup as that with my air return and with two layers I do not hear it at all.


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## MrAngles

Sweet, thanks!


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## MrAngles

I'd like some input on where my surround speakers should go. I have Acoustic Research AR4c speakers for my surrounds, which look like this:








In the past I've always preferred my surround speakers to be mounted as high as possible and slightly behind my ears, and I love these speakers because they have a ball and socket swivel mount (you can kind of see the foot for it in the picture) that allows me to angle them any way I could possibly want to, whether mounted on the wall or on the ceiling. I was originally thinking I'd mount them to the walls under the soffits, but looking at it now with two feet of space between the seating and the wall and *maybe* 6'8" clearance under the soffits, I'll probably end up bumping my head on them a lot. Should I mount them to the side of the soffit then? Will there be an issue with basically mounting them in a corner?


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> I'd like some input on where my surround speakers should go. I have Acoustic Research AR4c speakers for my surrounds, which look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the past I've always preferred my surround speakers to be mounted as high as possible and slightly behind my ears, and I love these speakers because they have a ball and socket swivel mount (you can kind of see the foot for it in the picture) that allows me to angle them any way I could possibly want to, whether mounted on the wall or on the ceiling. I was originally thinking I'd mount them to the walls under the soffits, but looking at it now with two feet of space between the seating and the wall and *maybe* 6'8" clearance under the soffits, I'll probably end up bumping my head on them a lot. Should I mount them to the side of the soffit then? Will there be an issue with basically mounting them in a corner?


Not sure on that one - hopefully, someone else can answer that for you. And, me too! :bigsmile:


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## MrAngles

Okay here's something I mentioned previously but I'm not sure I was able to explain it properly, and maybe it still won't make sense until the finished product, or maybe not even then. I plan on putting up crown molding, but not an elaborate light tray, so it won't be able to hide anything that sticks out much, so I thought I'd recess the outlets for the rope lights into the side of the soffit, in order to keep the plugs hidden.

The left rear soffit is not a false soffit, so to make things more complicated, the recess needs to be made with double drywall and be acoustically sealed.
This is the soffit I'm talking about:









And here's what it looks like:

























The bottom of the recess will be sealed when I drywall the bottom of the soffit, and the fron will remain open for the rope cord to go through. I just need to slap a putty pad on the back of the outlet and it will be all set. Ultimately, I don't know if it was worth all the effort of cutting drywall to fit, screwing the drywall in with my little ratchet screwdriver, etc. but it's done now, and the front soffit is a false soffit, so that one will be a lot easier since it won't have to be sealed, I'll just need to throw one piece of drywall up there for the gang box to mount into.


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## ALMFamily

Can you not use one rope light for the entire room?


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Can you not use one rope light for the entire room?


No, the support beam prevents me from running rope light from the front section to the back section, or vice versa, unfortunately.


----------



## MrAngles

So I hung my first OSB panel on the ceiling last night, and I think most of the screws _probably_ made it into the hat channel? If it was sheetrock I'm sure I could tell if I was hitting metal or not, but I can't figure out how to be sure.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> So I hung my first OSB panel on the ceiling last night, and I think most of the screws _probably_ made it into the hat channel? If it was sheetrock I'm sure I could tell if I was hitting metal or not, but I can't figure out how to be sure.


What I ended up doing was striking a line across the OSB where the channel was - it made it so I did not have to worry about being off one way or the other as I moved along the OSB.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> What I ended up doing was striking a line across the OSB where the channel was - it made it so I did not have to worry about being off one way or the other as I moved along the OSB.


Aha! That's so simple, thank you. Any tips on getting the board tight to the channel without stripping it? I've had a couple strip out on me trying to get the screw head flush, or when the head was already flush but it didn't seem like the board was tight enough.

I'm guessing this would be easier with a drywall lift, but renting one doesn't make a lot of sense when I'm slow at this to begin with, and I can only work after the kids go to bed.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Aha! That's so simple, thank you. Any tips on getting the board tight to the channel without stripping it? I've had a couple strip out on me trying to get the screw head flush, or when the head was already flush but it didn't seem like the board was tight enough.
> 
> I'm guessing this would be easier with a drywall lift, but renting one doesn't make a lot of sense when I'm slow at this to begin with, and I can only work after the kids go to bed.


I used an impact drill and made sure to not drive all the way through. 

I did not rent a lift either. What I did was make my own supports - I took a 2x4x8 and cut it just a bit short of the ceiling. I then cut a piece of 2x6 I had laying around and screwed it to one side of the 2x4 horizontally. I made 2.

Then, I would lift the OSB up, hold it to the ceiling with one hand and put one of the supports in place with the other. Then, I could get the other support in place. With both supports in place, I could screw it in freely.

I used them when I did the drywall to - I just taped a couple towels on top so as not to damage the drywall.


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamily said:


> I used an impact drill and made sure to not drive all the way through.
> 
> I did not rent a lift either. What I did was make my own supports - I took a 2x4x8 and cut it just a bit short of the ceiling. I then cut a piece of 2x6 I had laying around and screwed it to one side of the 2x4 horizontally. I made 2.
> 
> Then, I would lift the OSB up, hold it to the ceiling with one hand and put one of the supports in place with the other. Then, I could get the other support in place. With both supports in place, I could screw it in freely.
> 
> I used them when I did the drywall to - I just taped a couple towels on top so as not to damage the drywall.


I should point out that I am 6'4" which made holding the OSB to the ceiling somewhat easier....


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I did not rent a lift either. What I did was make my own supports - I took a 2x4x8 and cut it just a bit short of the ceiling. I then cut a piece of 2x6 I had laying around and screwed it to one side of the 2x4 horizontally. I made 2.
> 
> Then, I would lift the OSB up, hold it to the ceiling with one hand and put one of the supports in place with the other. Then, I could get the other support in place. With both supports in place, I could screw it in freely.
> 
> I used them when I did the drywall to - I just taped a couple towels on top so as not to damage the drywall.


I used one of those T supports (in one of these)and a ladder last night. I could definitely use another one. Do you not need feet for them just because they're wedged so tightly into place? If so, how do you reposition the panel horizontally if necessary?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> I used one of those T supports (in one of these)and a ladder last night. I could definitely use another one. Do you not need feet for them just because they're wedged so tightly into place? If so, how do you reposition the panel horizontally if necessary?


Correct. And, to reposition, I just did one side at a time. However, I did not have to do that often as I was able to butt it up against the side wall / previous piece of OSB to somewhat line it up.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I should point out that I am 6'4" which made holding the OSB to the ceiling somewhat easier....


I can see how that would help, I'm 6'1" and can't quite get that high. Having the Jawstand helped quite a lot with that because I was able to set it lower, put the OSB on top, then raise it up.


----------



## MrAngles

Ok so leaning the first T brace against a wall to get the first edge of the drywall up there has worked great. Now I'm at a point where I have two panels in the center of the room that need to go up, and I'm not sure how to do it, because when I tighten the second brace up to the ceiling, it loosens up the first brace and the drywall falls on me and tries to kill me. Any tips?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Ok so leaning the first T brace against a wall to get the first edge of the drywall up there has worked great. Now I'm at a point where I have two panels in the center of the room that need to go up, and I'm not sure how to do it, because when I tighten the second brace up to the ceiling, it loosens up the first brace and the drywall falls on me and tries to kill me. Any tips?


I would cut the first brace to the length where you can get it to stand more or less straight up when you wedge it in. That way, when the second goes up and loosens the first, the weight of the drywall will keep the first brace from falling over until you can move to it and readjust it to be a bit more steady.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I would cut the first brace to the length where you can get it to stand more or less straight up when you wedge it in. That way, when the second goes up and loosens the first, the weight of the drywall will keep the first brace from falling over until you can move to it and readjust it to be a bit more steady.


I'll give that a shot, thank you.


----------



## MrAngles

New pictures!

As I mentioned previously, I put 2" rigid foam insulation on the exterior walls, held up by furring strips, and hung the drywall directly to the furring strips. This is very effective for moisture control and saves space vs framing a wall away from the insulation.

I also chose not to use clips, double drywall or green glue on the exterior walls to save money and space. The problem with this is that sound can still go through the single layer of drywall and travel through the cavity and rigid foam up between the joists and through the floor to the room above. What Ted White and I came up with was a solution where the soffits create a soundproof seal from the ceiling over the wall cavity to the sill plate. This is an illustration of the plan:








You can see here the layers of drywall where I created the corner up and over the edge of the concrete, butted up to the sill plate. I shot a layer of spray foam between the concrete and the drywall to keep any moisture from seeping through to the drywall, and sealed each layer of drywall to the sill plate with acoustical sealant.

















Here I put IB-3 clips halfway between each length of hat channel, with 1/4" hex bolts through them.









Then I hung two layers of drywall on the ceiling with holes drilled for the 1/4" bolts to hang through, and put up the soffit.

















Here are a couple shots of the recess for the soffit outlets. One is for the rope light, tied into the outlet in the soffit behind the support beam, and the other is for UV lights for a star ceiling. The conduit for my left surround speaker wire also opens up right above this recess, so I decided to just have the wire run through the recess to make it easier to pull wire through later if necessary.


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## ALMFamily

Nice work mate! :T. That is a very unique approach - nice job bringing it to fruition.

How did the supports end up working out?


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Nice work mate! :T. That is a very unique approach - nice job bringing it to fruition.
> 
> How did the supports end up working out?


Thanks!

The supports for the ceiling drywall? I haven't tried any more drywall in the middle of the room yet, I wanted to rack up a win before I tried to tackle that again. I'm going to try to get the rest of the soffits up first, then go back to the ceiling.


----------



## MrAngles

Some random thoughts.

I was looking at my giant pile of empties and I feel like I'm going to be obligated to give some kind of credit to Mountain Dew once the theater is done because there's no way I would be anywhere near as far along as I am now without it.

To anyone who didn't know this like I didn't, buy a drywall dimpler. I feel like I was literally throwing away time and energy prior to picking this thing up.

Here's a pic of what's going on in the theater now.


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## MrAngles

I bought some puck lights to see if they would work for the bar lights and the screen wash lights, I like the low profile installation and I like the xenon bulbs (although I haven't attempted to dim them yet), but I haven't found any larger than about 2" yet. Is that just the way it goes with puck lights, or is there some place I can order larger ones?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Some random thoughts.
> 
> I was looking at my giant pile of empties and I feel like I'm going to be obligated to give some kind of credit to Mountain Dew once the theater is done because there's no way I would be anywhere near as far along as I am now without it.
> 
> To anyone who didn't know this like I didn't, buy a drywall dimpler. I feel like I was literally throwing away time and energy prior to picking this thing up.
> 
> Here's a pic of what's going on in the theater now.


Looking good mate! The dimpler tool is super handy - I got one after a previous project where it took so long for me to get a proper drive depth. I finally got the hang of it when I was done - but of course it is a fair bit in between projects so I thought it would be a good investment. 




MrAngles said:


> I bought some puck lights to see if they would work for the bar lights and the screen wash lights, I like the low profile installation and I like the xenon bulbs (although I haven't attempted to dim them yet), but I haven't found any larger than about 2" yet. Is that just the way it goes with puck lights, or is there some place I can order larger ones?


Hmmm - cannot really help here. I went with recessed LED lights throughout and never really shopped for puck lights.

Did that support method work out for the ceiling?


----------



## MrAngles

I still haven't put any sheets up that didn't butt up against a wall or a soffit. I'm a little nervous about it after dropping two sheets of drywall (one with green glue on it). I put the first layer up from right to left, so all the sheets hit the wall or the soffit.









I threw the puck lights up on the soffit to see how they would look on the screen. They're 2.5 inches in diameter, and each bulb is 20 watts, I don't think they look bad though. The cool thing about them is they are an inch and a quarter deep so I can just cut a mounting hole through the OSB and drywall and put a couple layers of OSB with green glue right on top of that to keep the soundproofing intact, but still have the lights flush mounted with the drywall.

I'd like something brighter and bigger for over the bar, but I'd rather not fill that soffit up with big recessed lighting kits, so maybe I can fit five or six in there.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> I still haven't put any sheets up that didn't butt up against a wall or a soffit. I'm a little nervous about it after dropping two sheets of drywall (one with green glue on it). I put the first layer up from right to left, so all the sheets hit the wall or the soffit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I threw the puck lights up on the soffit to see how they would look on the screen. They're 2.5 inches in diameter, and each bulb is 20 watts, I don't think they look bad though. The cool thing about them is they are an inch and a quarter deep so I can just cut a mounting hole through the OSB and drywall and put a couple layers of OSB with green glue right on top of that to keep the soundproofing intact, but still have the lights flush mounted with the drywall.
> 
> I'd like something brighter and bigger for over the bar, but I'd rather not fill that soffit up with big recessed lighting kits, so maybe I can fit five or six in there.


I am coming down to that area in April (27th) for a GTG - if you do not have them up by then, let's plan on me stopping over to help you get them up.

I put 3" LED recessed lighting around the room - the housings for those are fairly small, but they are not IC rated. I picked them up at HD.


----------



## MrAngles

Really? That would be awesome. I'm sure I'll get them up this week though, I just want to get the rest of the soffits up before I come back to the ceiling drywall.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Really? That would be awesome. I'm sure I'll get them up this week though, I just want to get the rest of the soffits up before I come back to the ceiling drywall.


You bet - when it gets closer, if they are not up, we can work out the details in PM.

That GTG is right there in Des Moines - sounds like there is a fair-sized group of enthusiasts in that area.


----------



## MrAngles

Is it a HTS get together? This is the first I've heard of it.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Is it a HTS get together? This is the first I've heard of it.


It is not - I am a member of that "other" forum. The only forum over there I look at is the GTG forum as it is quite active and there are some great people who set these up.


----------



## Drifte

ALMFamily said:


> It is not - I am a member of that "other" forum. The only forum over there I look at is the GTG forum as it is quite active and there are some great people who set these up.


Can you share the "other" forum? Im from Cedar Rapids which is only a couple hours away.

Excellent read though, Just went through the whole thread.


----------



## MrAngles

Sounds like it's DLBeck's "Central Iowa Spring Audio GTG." I can't seem to get it to come up directly on a google search but there are some indirect links. Sounds like the type of get together that would give me speaker envy and cause budgetary problems for me at this point...


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Sounds like it's DLBeck's "Central Iowa Spring Audio GTG." I can't seem to get it to come up directly on a google search but there are some indirect links. Sounds like the type of get together that would give me speaker envy and cause budgetary problems for me at this point...


That is the one - I just like getting together with other enthusiasts and listening to some great speakers.


----------



## MrAngles

I've been saving this section of soffit for last, not really looking forward to dealing with it:








That's the HVAC trunk line that I had moved out of the room. It wouldn't be a big deal that it comes into the room a bit, except that I need to allow room for the zone damper to come out for maintenance. So the plan is to have the section of soffit around the damper and the section of wall below it removable. I'm thinking I'll make the first layer out of OSB, and have the second layer extend out about a half inch for a little seam overlap, and only secure it to the framing with screws that go through both layers, then cover up the screws and seams with some trim. Maybe the trim could be velcroed into place or something so it cna be removed without damaging it.


----------



## MrAngles

I'm thinking that with the size/shape of the screen and the size of the lights, four looks better. What do you think?


----------



## ALMFamily

Agreed - four looks better to me as well.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Agreed - four looks better to me as well.


Sweet, thank you for the feedback.

So I ended up having to buy more acoustical sealant, Ted told me I would need 6, but either I miscommunicated my room setup, or I'm using way more than I'm supposed to. Filling a 1/4" gap seams to take a lot of sealant.










Here's my newest wacky thing. I needed a way to wire up the front puck lights, and a spot to put an IR receiver, so I made a soundproof cavity in the middle of my front soffit with an outlet for the puck lights, and a makeshift raceway on either side for the cords to run through.








The cavity has a three gang wallplate-sized opening in the bottom so I can reach up and fiddle with it.








I'm sure it's not exactly code compliant to have what's basically lamp cord in an enclosed space, but it's not much different than running it through a cabinet, and if there is a code issue with it I can pull it all out and put it back fairly easily now.








I'm not sure how I'm going to finish the opening yet, I could paint the inside black and leave it open, or if it's too noticeable I can put a wallplate on it, or if that's too reflective I can put felt or something over the entire bottom of the soffit.


----------



## ALMFamily

Is the IR receiver for if you ever decide to do curtains?

I would just make a thin frame and put some blackout cloth on it. I would then velcro it in place for easy removal. That is what I am doing in the soffit where I have a hole to reach up to unplug the star ceiling. As it will be an opening into a box, make sure to stuff a little insulation in there so it does not turn into a boombox.


----------



## MrAngles

The ir receiver is for distribution to the a/v rack, so I can use any remote i want. Even if I end up getting a remote with rf built in, I want to be able to use the original remotes if I have to, ie the universal Remote breaks or is lost. But having the box up there lets me add other wiring later as well, like running curtain control back to the projector or av rack or if I need an ir emitter for 3d glasses for some reason.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I would just make a thin frame and put some blackout cloth on it. I would then velcro it in place for easy removal. That is what I am doing in the soffit where I have a hole to reach up to unplug the star ceiling. As it will be an opening into a box, make sure to stuff a little insulation in there so it does not turn into a boombox.


Velcro would be perfect, that's a great idea. Is there velcro that you can screw into place rather than sew or stick into place? What kind of insulation are you going to use, I'm guessing not fiberglass?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Velcro would be perfect, that's a great idea. Is there velcro that you can screw into place rather than sew or stick into place? What kind of insulation are you going to use, I'm guessing not fiberglass?


Not familiar with a screw in variety - bit I do know they make a real "industrial" strength type that I will probably use.

I just stuffed some blown in that I had left over in there - just needed something to fill space so figured it would work just fine.


----------



## MrAngles

Blown in isn't going to fall out every time you shove your hand in there? I was thinking maybe a chunk of denim insulation or even a couple towels would work temporarily, just so it's something I can pull out and shove back in there easily.

On another note, I think that about 60% of this project time has been spent shuffling around the basement either muttering or shouting "where is my framing square?!"


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Blown in isn't going to fall out every time you shove your hand in there? I was thinking maybe a chunk of denim insulation or even a couple towels would work temporarily, just so it's something I can pull out and shove back in there easily.
> 
> On another note, I think that about 60% of this project time has been spent shuffling around the basement either muttering or shouting "where is my framing square?!"


I did not fill the entire cavity - I kept it about 6" from the opening and left a clear path to the outlet. It does not have to be full - you just need some in there to absorb the "bounces".

I hear ya - there have been a few days where I did nothing from a construction standpoint - I spent the day just cleaning up my tools.


----------



## MrAngles

Okay, I got the problem ceiling drywall up. I cut my T brace a little shorter so it could stand straight up and down, and reoriented the long 2x4 to line up with the top of the T, instead of being perpendicular to it, so it would be easier to push into place, but I still wasn't able to lift one end of the drywall up and keep it there without having someone lifting the other end at the same time. I figured out a way to do it though, I put one end on top of my shelving unit (with towels covering the corner) and propped the other end up on the T brace that's held up by the jawstand.








I put the green glue on while it was up there, then raised up the jawstand to ceiling height, and raised the other end using the other T brace, which worked great when the other end was already raised.










Anyway, that's it for the big panels of drywall in the room, I just have four small pieces to put up on the ceiling tonight, then I finish the soffits.

































I still have to put the OSB bottom on the soffit around the support beam, that will be fun to try to get level, and then once all the drywall is done I need to frame the soffit over the bar that will hold the can lights for the bar, and the projector will be mounted to. To keep myself motivated to get it all done I'm calling the drywall guys today to schedule them to mud and tape the room next week, which will be great, because then I can stop coming to bed at 2 AM covered in sawdust and drywall dust...


----------



## ALMFamily

Good thinking on using the shelf - being able to put the GG on when you were closer probably went smoother than it did for me. I had to put it on while it was on the floor, so of course I inadvertently put my hand in it once or twice while lifting the sheet up.

Really looking good mate - for added motivation, I can tell you that when the drywall was up, I really stopped and looked at the room. It was the first time I could really see in my head what the room was going to look like - it was a very gratifying point in the process.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Good thinking on using the shelf - being able to put the GG on when you were closer probably went smoother than it did for me. I had to put it on while it was on the floor, so of course I inadvertently put my hand in it once or twice while lifting the sheet up.


Putting it on higher up was great, drywall is unwieldy enough without adding goop all over one side.



ALMFamily said:


> Really looking good mate - for added motivation, I can tell you that when the drywall was up, I really stopped and looked at the room. It was the first time I could really see in my head what the room was going to look like - it was a very gratifying point in the process.


Thank you! Yeah this past week I've found myself sitting in there and just looking around for 5 to 10 minutes at 1 or 2 AM after I'm done working. In a way the room actually seems bigger with the drywall up somehow, maybe it's the white, or just that the corners and stuff are better defined, but it's a totally different feel than before.


----------



## MrAngles

Okay, all the ceiling drywall is up. I booked CertaPro to come out and tape and spackle and what not starting next Wednesday, there should be plenty of time for me to finish hanging drywall on the soffits. What's the preferred orientation for the drywall on soffits, should I focus more on having beveled edges at the seams, or having as few seams as possible? If it's best to cut the drywall the long way, does it matter if I put the beveled edge at the inside corner or the outside corner of the soffit?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Okay, all the ceiling drywall is up. I booked CertaPro to come out and tape and spackle and what not starting next Wednesday, there should be plenty of time for me to finish hanging drywall on the soffits. What's the preferred orientation for the drywall on soffits, should I focus more on having beveled edges at the seams, or having as few seams as possible? If it's best to cut the drywall the long way, does it matter if I put the beveled edge at the inside corner or the outside corner of the soffit?


I completely covered mine with MLV and cloth to use them for low end bass absorption, so I cannot speak from experience here. That said, I would personally do the compressed edges on the seams. Otherwise, when they mud and tape they will not be able to get a clean finish.


----------



## bamabum

Run longways to prevent more seams. A pro drywall we will use metal corners on the ones hanging down and paper corner bead on the soffit to wall. 3 skim coats and you can't see any of it.


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## bamabum

If you are running crown it matters less on the edges. The longer runs will look better. If you have up firing sconces place the long run spanning in the middle or the light will show the seem more.


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## ALMFamily

I understand using corner bead to cover the perpendicular join, but if the run is longer than 8', how would you deal with the seam between the two pieces on the face?


----------



## bamabum

You use drywall tape and mud.

best tips...

Mixing you own mud works best. you can buy 45 - 90 min mud and mix but you need a tool for your drill that will still the mud evenly. its like an egg beater. The pros use 30 min mud and rent a sander for a whole house. It should take them 2 days because even 30 min mud does not dry that fast when you apply thick in corner and joints.

you can buy premixed mud if you must. but buy in the bucket and don't get the cheap DAP . Buy in the 1 gallon bucket.

Use very wide knives and over mud and sand to get the best seams. because you are using tape the ends will be covered and no need to worry which end to but against each other. 


This guy shows a nice job on putting the tape down.






Process 

1 apply mud 1/8 thick in seams and wider than the seam then add tape on top of that.
Use knife (flat wide paint tool) to work in the tape flush. Make sure there is NO wrinkles in the tape. this will work out the excess mud.

Let this dry and then light sand. you dont want to tear the tape.


come back with a top coat in a few hours or day depending on mud. It needs to be completely dry. I would have a 8 in wide path to cover the joint even though it is only 2-3 in wide tape. the larger helps feather. (



)

let dry and sand again.

for sanding use something like http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100321...sand+screen&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=100321150
or a sanding block from the big box.

keep repeating coats until you are happy.

The best advice I can give you is buy some mud and set up some scrap drywall edges together on scrap wood. practice a few times. I will become easier every time.

use a bright led light shining at a 20 degree to the surface to see the ripples for sanding. sometimes it looks great and you don't realize the issues until paint which is too late.

Drywall takes practice and the correct tools. don't skip either.


----------



## MrAngles

CertaPro quoted me about $500 to take care of the drywall finishing for me. Every time I read anything about doing it yourself I am reassured that I made the right decision. I can only imagine how many weeks it would take me to do it myself, even if I got it to look perfect, which I'm sure I won't. I'll probably try it myself when I do the mechanical room, and see if it's something I want to do in the rest of the basement, but with the timeframe I'm dealing with now this will be money well spent. Anyway, as long as there won't be any issues mudding over the flat seams I'll just put the drywall up lengthwise.

Here's what's going on tonight. Possibly the most frustrating part of framing that I've dealt with so far.
















Have I mentioned how much I hate 2x2s? Nearly impossible to get this straight and level.


----------



## ALMFamily

bamabum said:


> You use drywall tape and mud.
> 
> best tips...
> 
> Mixing you own mud works best. you can buy 45 - 90 min mud and mix but you need a tool for your drill that will still the mud evenly. its like an egg beater. The pros use 30 min mud and rent a sander for a whole house. It should take them 2 days because even 30 min mud does not dry that fast when you apply thick in corner and joints.
> 
> you can buy premixed mud if you must. but buy in the bucket and don't get the cheap DAP . Buy in the 1 gallon bucket.
> 
> Use very wide knives and over mud and sand to get the best seams. because you are using tape the ends will be covered and no need to worry which end to but against each other.
> 
> 
> This guy shows a nice job on putting the tape down.
> 
> How to Tape Drywall Seams - YouTube
> 
> Process
> 
> 1 apply mud 1/8 thick in seams and wider than the seam then add tape on top of that.
> Use knife (flat wide paint tool) to work in the tape flush. Make sure there is NO wrinkles in the tape. this will work out the excess mud.
> 
> Let this dry and then light sand. you dont want to tear the tape.
> 
> 
> come back with a top coat in a few hours or day depending on mud. It needs to be completely dry. I would have a 8 in wide path to cover the joint even though it is only 2-3 in wide tape. the larger helps feather. (How to mud and tape drywall [2of2] - YouTube)
> 
> let dry and sand again.
> 
> for sanding use something like http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/100321...sand+screen&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=100321150
> or a sanding block from the big box.
> 
> keep repeating coats until you are happy.
> 
> The best advice I can give you is buy some mud and set up some scrap drywall edges together on scrap wood. practice a few times. I will become easier every time.
> 
> use a bright led light shining at a 20 degree to the surface to see the ripples for sanding. sometimes it looks great and you don't realize the issues until paint which is too late.
> 
> Drywall takes practice and the correct tools. don't skip either.


I was worried I did not explain what I meant well. I understand how to mud when you are going over a seam where the compressed edges meet.

However, if you....... hmmmm... I think I am being foolish here. Even if you cut an 8' length, you have a compressed edge on both sides. Never mind me....:dumbcrazy:


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## MrAngles

My drywall is only compressed on the sides, not the top and bottom, so when I hang 8 foot lengths on the soffit the ends are a full 5/8" thick.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> My drywall is only compressed on the sides, not the top and bottom, so when I hang 8 foot lengths on the soffit the ends are a full 5/8" thick.


Well, then, my question stands. I am not sure how they can tape and mud and get it smooth when there is no dip in the surface to knife the mud into.......


----------



## MrAngles

That was my question, but they have to do it some way on the ceiling drywall, so I guess it can't be that hard to do.


----------



## MrAngles

Thankfully I'm done with framing in the support beam now.








That's it for tonight.


----------



## bamabum

The pros will make it look good. In seams it is built up 1/32 or so higher and feathered in. Just pay for it done right. You'll be happy. Still do the light trick to check their final sanding.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Thankfully I'm done with framing in the support beam now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's it for tonight.


That turned out good mate - nice job. Are you covering that with drywall today?



bamabum said:


> The pros will make it look good. In seams it is built up 1/32 or so higher and feathered in. Just pay for it done right. You'll be happy. Still do the light trick to check their final sanding.


I wish I could see them do it - I had a couple spots like that and I struggled to make it look halfway decent.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> That turned out good mate - nice job. Are you covering that with drywall today?


Thanks! I'll be doing a drywall layer on the side that faces the back of the room tonight, then I'll start working on framing the false soffit that holds the over the bar can lights and the power outlet for the projector.

I have this idea in my mind for this thing where there will be a 12x12" or so open space where the projector will be, and a OSB panel that will be recessed, hanging by four IB3 brackets (the L-shaped ones) which the projector will hang from. The idea is for the OSB panel to be removable so I can reach into the soffit to easily mess with wiring later, and height adjustable for if I get a different projector that needs to be lower or higher for some reason.


----------



## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> The pros will make it look good. In seams it is built up 1/32 or so higher and feathered in. Just pay for it done right. You'll be happy. Still do the light trick to check their final sanding.


I appreciate all the input. By the way, where have you been? Your thread is starving for updates.


----------



## bamabum

I've been in China eating chicken heads. Work has been busy. 









Hope to be back at it in the next week or so.


----------



## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> I've been in China eating chicken heads. Work has been busy.
> 
> Hope to be back at it in the next week or so.


Your job is to eat chicken heads? I guess somebody has to do it, keep up the good work!


----------



## MrAngles

Argh, after just opening the package to look at it, I've already lost the 4mm security allen wrench for my peerless projector mount


----------



## MrAngles

Nevermind, here it is.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Nevermind, here it is.


LOL - look Dad! A sucker! :rofl:


----------



## Dale Rasco

I see the supervisor has shown up and is ready to get to work!


----------



## MrAngles

He was using it to either fix or take apart his vacuum cleaner before I took the picture. Clearly I need to get him a bigger set of tools at this point, because as far as I could tell it was not the right tool for the job.

So I got the soffit over the bar framed.

















To make it as solid as possible I screwed the rear edge 2x2 into hat channel which has clips on every joist, screwed the top 2x4s into the osb ceiling, and screwed the front vertical 2x4s into the osb on the side of the soffit around the support beam.

I also got the first layer of drywall/osb done on all the soffits in the front section of the room and an almost done with the second layer. Slow and steady wins the race.


----------



## MrAngles

While measuring for drywall I discovered that I made a mistake and my soffit over the bar is 3" off center to the left side. On the plus side, I can't really tell by looking at it, and it allows for a little extra space around the entrance. When I put the bar up though, I'm worried that it might be more noticeable.


----------



## bamabum

Add a 2x4 plate on the end. With 2x 1/2 drywall your good. 

These are the things that only you will notice, but you will notice every time you walk into the room. 

Over time you will become self conscious about it and point it out before others notice to cover your embarrassment. 

Or turn it into a small shelf area to display something that starts conversation. Maybe a bar accessory shelf on a pulley let down. Beer steins. Boars head. Special lighting. Etc. embrace the space.


----------



## MrAngles

Exactly what I was looking for, thanks buddy!


----------



## MrAngles

Here's what I was talking about for a removable panel to mount the projector to:
























The annoying part will be having to pull this thing down to pull any cords through, but it keeps everything fairly hidden, allows me to reach up into anywhere in the soffit for can light installation, allows the projector to be mounted a couple inches above the drywall bottom of the soffit, and is decoupled from the soffit so it theoretically should be less susceptible to vibration. The other cool thing about using the IB3 brackets and wing nuts is that I can adjust the wing nuts to level the panel. I need to figure out a way to secure the carriage bolts though, it would be nice to keep them from accidentally being pushed out of the brackets while I'm trying to mount the panel, and ideally keep them from turning while I'm turning the wing nuts.

And here's framing for the HVAC zone damper access panel:


----------



## ALMFamily

Interesting idea - looking forward to seeing how it works out....


----------



## MrAngles

I've had some issues with contractors this week, new guys are coming tomorrow morning, so hopefully the drywall finishing and painting starts soon. But all the sheetrock has been hung, and here's the proof:


----------



## ALMFamily

Boy, that looks like such a great space. Looking forward to seeing it finished!


----------



## MrAngles

Thanks, you and me both! 

I forgot to mention how loud the echo from the click of the camera was when taking those pics. Why is the echo so bad in this room compared to say, the spare bedroom upstairs? I'm sure carpet is a big factor, but why do I feel like I'll need to put all kinds of insulation on the walls just to get it to sound like a normal room?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Thanks, you and me both!
> 
> I forgot to mention how loud the echo from the click of the camera was when taking those pics. Why is the echo so bad in this room compared to say, the spare bedroom upstairs? I'm sure carpet is a big factor, but why do I feel like I'll need to put all kinds of insulation on the walls just to get it to sound like a normal room?


Carpet is a huge factor. Just wait, once you have that in, you will notice a big reduction in echo.


----------



## MrAngles

Here's the completed access panel for the HVAC damper. 








It's not the most sophisticated solution in the world, it's just three separate panels consisting of a layer of OSB and a layer of drywall with green glue in between, cut so the drywall layer overlaps the seam in the first layer. Drywall screws hold the two layers together, and then each panel is secured to the framing with four construction screws. I'll seal the seams with acoustical sealant before painting, and cover the seams and the construction screws up with wood trim held on by velcro or something.


----------



## MrAngles

Contractor crew #3 no call no showed this morning. Unfortunately this seems to be par for the course with my experience with contractors in the midwest. Is this normal?


----------



## Drifte

I have a friend in the insulation business who also builds buildings/shops. You could give him a call and see if he finishes drywall. I know he can, but I dont know if its something he does, when he doesnt hang the drywall himself. Bergmeier construction, ask for Jesse.

facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/bergmeierconstruction


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Contractor crew #3 no call no showed this morning. Unfortunately this seems to be par for the course with my experience with contractors in the midwest. Is this normal?


I have not had that issue before - I am guessing that the companies you are hiring also do businesses and whatnot. I would just make sure to tell them when they call (and they will) that you went with a more responsible company and that you will make sure to let anyone that asks know exactly what transpired.

It is just odd that some people do not realize that this type of business practice is what gets you out of business when the economy slows.....


----------



## MrAngles

Well, the manager at CertaPro called me back right as I was leaving to go to work, said he got ahold of the guy who was supposed to be here this morning and was told that he was sick and in the emergency room, but he will be here at noon. So now the crew and the manager will both be at my house at noon to deal with my wife, and as long as the cops don't get called it should be a fun time for everybody.

I see no reason why this won't go perfectly smoothly at this point:sarcastic:, But if there are any more problems I'm going to call the guy my wife's boss uses, and after that I'll give Drifte's buddy a call.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I am guessing that the companies you are hiring also do businesses and whatnot.


That is true, and my best contractor experience has been with the HVAC guy who moved my furnace and trunk line, and he was a small shop who just did residential work. There must be something to that.


----------



## MrAngles

On a positive note though, I ordered and received a Harmony 900 last week, NewEgg has refurbs at $139 now (I paid $150 for mine last week, grumble). With the Harmony Link and Harmony Touch getting so popular, I figured this might be my last chance to get a Harmony remote with a great layout of *actual buttons*. Built in RF control is a big plus as well.


----------



## bamabum

Contractors in the drywall and paint trade are often flaky in my experience. They drop smaller jobs scheduled for large whole house jobs which have more profit. With the general housing market picking up nationally I am sure they are going for new homes as a top priority for their time. 

Also if they work for a builder regularly they will drop any small job in a second when the builder calls for work. 

I wouldn't take it personally. It just is the business unfortunately.


----------



## MrAngles

I'm not taking the fact that they have been late or have not shown up personally. It's the fact that they can't be bothered to pick up a phone and let me know if they'll be late, or just don't plan on coming at all that gets me. And I realize that it's not their fault that I have a job, but It's particularly aggravating when I arrange my work schedule to be there and they don't show up.


----------



## MrAngles

Okay, the guys did come at noon - :30, and they started with painting my daughter's bedroom first, so after work I was able to go down there and talk through the job with them, which made me feel a lot better about the situation.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Okay, the guys did come at noon - :30, and they started with painting my daughter's bedroom first, so after work I was able to go down there and talk through the job with them, which made me feel a lot better about the situation.


Good to hear - hopefully, your wife did not beat them up too badly...


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Good to hear - hopefully, your wife did not beat them up too badly...


No permanent emotional damage as far as I can tell. One benefit of this whole situation is that the sales manager is taking a hands on approach with this job, and he was really great when we were discussing what I want done. The guys are painting my son's room right now, then they'll do the first pass at mudding and taping and hopefully tonight they'll be ready to show me texture options.


----------



## MrAngles

Now I need to decide if I want texture on my walls and ceiling for $1500 or not. It seems like a lot. This includes an oil primer before the texture. The price makes me lean towards ultimately doing fabric on the walls instead...


----------



## MrAngles

Okay new nevermind on the $1500 for texture. That was apparently one of many miscommunications between the sales manager and the crew. Price is entirely up in the air at this point...


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## MrAngles

Corner bead and one layer of mud have been applied. 

















On another note, the local news has started their stories about storm preparation. My deadline for a usable room is coming up fast here.


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## MrAngles

So my next step after drywall is finished and painting is done is to lay the Dricore, and then carpet to make the room usable. I still need to build the raised section of floor behind the bar as well as the riser, so I figured I would just Dricore the front of the room up to the front of where the riser will be for now, and throw some carpet remnants down until I'm ready to have carpet installed in the entire room. Does that make sense? Has anyone on here dealt with carpet remnants, should I be looking at Craigslist, or talk to flooring companies?


----------



## ALMFamily

Is there a reason you decided not to build the riser on top of dricore?

As far as the remnants, I would check carpeting places. They normally have some left over from different jobs that I am pretty certain they sell cheap.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Is there a reason you decided not to build the riser on top of dricore?


I spent nearly a whole day reading AVS threads about flooding a few months back. "Basement flooded" from longshorejl was probably my main inspiration, as well as this picture of waterlogged dri-core going to the dump, which is all over AVS:









My thought is I make a pressure treated bottom plate for the riser and caulk it to the concrete, and Dri-core around it, so that if I have to rip the subflooring out I hopefully don't have to destroy the riser as well. Realistically it only saves the riser if the water is an inch and a half or lower, so I don't know how much difference it will ultimately make, but the ideas makes me feel a little more secure.

The other thing I'm thinking of doing is kind of waterproofing the bottom foot of the walls in the mechanical room a little bit so if I have a water heater or sump pump issue it will be contained in there up to the bottom of the door, which will also have weatherstripping on the bottom to help a bit, and if it gets higher than that the water would have to go out under the door and through the hallway before it will get into the theater room and damage my floor and double drywall in there.


----------



## BD55

Remnants are definitely cheaper than "new" carpet, but can still be plenty pricey. Craigslist may be a good source for off cuts, though I wouldn't want someone's used carpet with a questionable background...


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## MrAngles

BD55 said:


> though I wouldn't want someone's used carpet with a questionable background...


Sounds like you have a carpet story to tell? In any case, I'm not really worried about the carpet's heritage as long as it doesn't stink, I'll only hopefully have it in there for the duration of the summer at the most. I found a guy on Craigslist selling two bedrooms' worth of tan carpet for $0, and I'm highly considering checking it out.


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## BD55

Ha ha, no fortunately. I just know some people get rid of carpet for less than desirable reasons


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## MrAngles

Drywall finishing and painting is done! Sorry about the dust in the first pic, I figured out after that that I needed to turn off the flash.










































The paint is Sherman Williams Duration, which is what was recommended when I asked for a washable flat finish. The ceiling and soffits are "Black Magic" and the walls are "Serious Gray," which is a bluish gray. The sample seemed a lot blue-er that it appears on the walls here, but I'm guessing it looks that way because not a lot of light is getting reflected on it since the rest of the room is black. Once I get some real sconces on the walls I'm hoping the color will come out a bit more. I had them leave most of the screen wall just primered so I could play around with screen sizes once I get seating in there.

The over-the bar soffit turned out much better than I expected, the extra angles kind of add something cool, and they did a great job getting the outside corners sharp and the surfaces smooth.

Next I need to cut/finish the holes for outlets, light switch, smoke detector, can lights, projector mount and heat registers, then it's on to Dri-core.


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## ALMFamily

Wow - it turned out great! I really like how the bar soffit turned out....


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Wow - it turned out great! I really like how the bar soffit turned out....


Thanks! I certainly had my doubts about that section during the drywall hanging and mudding phases, but it all paid off in the end.


----------



## BD55

Looks great! Also I'm glad they didn't tape and mud your removable door . I almost brought that up before but thought there's no way you would overlook that! Thanks for proving that thought right! Phew.


----------



## MrAngles

BD55 said:


> Looks great! Also I'm glad they didn't tape and mud your removable door . I almost brought that up before but thought there's no way you would overlook that! Thanks for proving that thought right! Phew.


Thank you! It took a while for them to understand what was going on with that, the first time I told them not to mud the seams or the construction screws holding it in place they somehow took that to mean I didn't want them to mud over any screws in the room... but over the course of the week including coming over on Easter Sunday we ended up all speaking the same language. They did a great job and even though it ended up costing more than the original bid, I'm glad I hired the job out because they really covered up a lot of the mistakes I made hanging the drywall.


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## Prof.

Looking very nice! :T I'm looking forward to seeing the finished result..


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## NBPk402

Looking great! It reminds me of a Home Theater I had in my first house as far as how dark it will be! You will def need some lighting to see where you are walking, but it will def make the picture look awesome in a dark dark room!


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## mcascio

Yeah. Things are looking good. That black looks really sharp. I'm anxious to see how things develop in the next phase. The room should really start to come together.


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## bamabum

Looking awesome.


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## MrAngles

Thanks guys! I'm heading down there tonight to cut a bunch of holes in all that nice work they did and probably mount the projector (I know, mistake...). Then this weekend I get to put together the trampoline and the new swingset, so I don't know when I'll get to start on the Dri-core, but I'll fit it in somewhere!


----------



## MrAngles

Here's the projector mount setup:
































It's pretty tight in there for making adjustments, but I still am glad I don't have the projector mounted right to the bottom of the soffit, just for the couple inches of height savings alone. I'll paint the wood black and trim the edges of the drywall up at some point.

I had the painters spray the HVAC registers and the shell of the smoke detector with primer and black while they were here, and I think it worked out pretty well.

















And here's a shot with the lights off now that it's painted. I'm still getting light reflections on the ceiling and side walls. I guess this is the best I'm going to do without using fabric instead?


----------



## ALMFamily

That looks good and solid! :T

Unless you go with all black, you are bound to get a little light refraction. Of course, most people do not want to do all black. That said, the picture looks really good, and taking a snapshot of the picture normally does not do it justice so I think it probably looks amazing in person.


----------



## Prof.

Nice job on the projector mount..
Some light reflection from the walls is very difficult to avoid..If you're not using cloth coverings all you can do is use the darkest flattest paint colours..


----------



## bamabum

Is the bolted platform used for function such as vibration or is it just for easy access. 

I have slight walls splash as well. Medium green colors. Flat paint as well. As I build the screen out I might shadow box the screen so the reflected light hits the side wall of the shadow box which will be velvet.


----------



## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> Is the bolted platform used for function such as vibration or is it just for easy access.
> 
> I have slight walls splash as well. Medium green colors. Flat paint as well. As I build the screen out I might shadow box the screen so the reflected light hits the side wall of the shadow box which will be velvet.


Yeah I'm kind of paranoid about projector vibration from kids stomping around above and I had extra isolation brackets so I figured why not go overkill. It's also so I can hide the power outlet inside the soffit and give me access for wiring the soffit lights when I get around to putting those in, but the real reason I did it was to raise the projector up a couple inches so people walking in front of it would block the image less. As it is the bottom of the lens is only 75" above the unfinished floor, if I had just mounted it to the bottom of the soffit it would have been 72-1/2". 

The shadowbox idea sounds great, how far out do you think you'll go?


----------



## MrAngles

Amateur tip: Don't let your green glue speedload dispenser sit in a bucket for three weeks before you clean it.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Amateur tip: Don't let your green glue speedload dispenser sit in a bucket for three weeks before you clean it.


Oh no - did it dry up?


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Oh no - did it dry up?


It was in a bucket of water and it was full of water, so nothing was dry, but everything was waaaay stickier than the last time I cleaned it. I could barely get the plunger unstuck. In the end though, I prevailed. It's all clean and drying now.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> It was in a bucket of water and it was full of water, so nothing was dry, but everything was waaaay stickier than the last time I cleaned it. I could barely get the plunger unstuck. In the end though, I prevailed. It's all clean and drying now.


Whew! :clap:


----------



## mtrunz

Angles,
I finally had the chance to get through most of your build post. I have to admit that I glossed over a few pages in the middle but I'm impressed with what you've accomplished. It's also a sobering reminder of how much work I have ahead of me. Anyway, it looks awesome so far and I'm looking forward to seeing it when it's all buttoned up.

What make and model projector did you end up with? The picture you showed in one of your posts looked great so even though I was planning to go plasma, the idea of a projector is intriguing if I can find one that appeals to both my senses and my wallet. By the way, your IB3's arrived yesterday so thanks.


----------



## MrAngles

mtrunz said:


> Angles,
> I finally had the chance to get through most of your build post. I have to admit that I glossed over a few pages in the middle but I'm impressed with what you've accomplished. It's also a sobering reminder of how much work I have ahead of me. Anyway, it looks awesome so far and I'm looking forward to seeing it when it's all buttoned up.
> 
> What make and model projector did you end up with? The picture you showed in one of your posts looked great so even though I was planning to go plasma, the idea of a projector is intriguing if I can find one that appeals to both my senses and my wallet.


Thanks! Yeah it's a huge undertaking, I think the key for me has been to only think about it in chunks, rather than as an entire job. Originally I was going to reinsulate the whole basement, then frame the whole basement, then drywall the whole basement... I think I would have ended up giving up partway through if I continued that plan. 

I went with a Panasonic PT-AE8000u for the projector. It was $2600 after $100 mail-in rebate. The space you described to me sounds like it would be great for a projector set up. If you decide to go with a plasma for financial reasons, I'd recommend putting in an outlet and some wide conduit to where a projector would potentially go anyway while you're still in the construction phase, so it will be easy to add one later, and retire the plasma to the living room or bedroom or something. My 50" is in my living room now which means the 42" is in my bedroom, which is pretty awesome.



mtrunz said:


> By the way, your IB3's arrived yesterday so thanks.


No problem! I'm glad they showed up in a reasonable amount of time.


----------



## mtrunz

> I went with a Panasonic PT-AE8000u for the projector. It was $2600 after $100 mail-in rebate. The space you described to me sounds like it would be great for a projector set up. If you decide to go with a plasma for financial reasons, I'd recommend putting in an outlet and some wide conduit to where a projector would potentially go anyway while you're still in the construction phase, so it will be easy to add one later, and retire the plasma to the living room or bedroom or something. My 50" is in my living room now which means the 42" is in my bedroom, which is pretty awesome.


Sounds familiar. I have a 40" Aquos LED in the bedroom and a 58" Panny V series plasma in the living room. I was planning on the new Z series 65" Panny for the basement. They don't hit the market until May but CES reviews say it's the first picture that finally tops the long running king of the hill, the Pioneer Kuro. Obviously 65" is not quite the cinema experience a projector provides but I haven't seen a projector than can compete with the best plasma sets for picture quality and that's really where my heart is so it will admittedly be tough for me to switch. Having said that, it's been a few years since I've even looked at the projectors so I'll do my research because I want to keep an open mind before I make my final decision.

Great advice on the projector outlet and prep. Even if I stick with plasma, I was already thinking I'd run a cable chase conduit in my soffits so I can pull cables down the road if I ever need to. You only get one shot so it's all about setting yourself up for future possibilities. As for the construction, I'm taking it step by step knowing that it will all come together in the end.


----------



## MrAngles

mtrunz said:


> Obviously 65" is not quite the cinema experience a projector provides but I haven't seen a projector than can compete with the best plasma sets for picture quality and that's really where my heart is so it will admittedly be tough for me to switch. Having said that, it's been a few years since I've even looked at the projectors so I'll do my research because I want to keep an open mind before I make my final decision.


I'm a big fan of Panasonic plasmas and I'm still not entirely sold on the projector image vs my plasmas. The big difference for me so far though is the black level, and my guess is that projecting the image on a white primed wall is not the way to get ideal black levels. Honestly though, considering that my image is as tall as two 50" plasmas and nearly as wide as three, I expected the picture quality to look worse than it is, being blown up that big.


----------



## kingpin748

MrAngles said:


> I had the painters spray the HVAC registers and the shell of the smoke detector with primer and black while they were here, and I think it worked out pretty well.


So I'm not too sure about this but when I was changing the battery on my Kidde smoke detector just yesterday it said right on it "do not paint". Now when I look at that picture I'm wondering if any of the spray went through the little vents onto the sensor. What that would do I don't know but.......

And I'm not a fan of the nanny state, I'm just saying.

Place looks sweet by the way.


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## MrAngles

kingpin748 said:


> So I'm not too sure about this but when I was changing the battery on my Kidde smoke detector just yesterday it said right on it "do not paint". Now when I look at that picture I'm wondering if any of the spray went through the little vents onto the sensor. What that would do I don't know but.......
> 
> And I'm not a fan of the nanny state, I'm just saying.


You are correct, it says do not paint right on there. However that's just the plastic shell of the smoke detector there in the picture, none of the circuitry or sensors were in it at the time that it was painted. It's funny, I looked it up online first and I think it was ehow that had a whole article on "how to paint your smoke detectors." It said to get up on a stepladder and "remove the covers by turning them clockwise" and then to just spraypaint the "covers." Ehow is a very funny site sometimes, I wonder how many people followed those directions and basically killed their smoke detectors by covering the sensors in spraypaint.



kingpin748 said:


> Place looks sweet by the way.


Thank you!


----------



## mtrunz

MrAngles said:


> I'm a big fan of Panasonic plasmas and I'm still not entirely sold on the projector image vs my plasmas. The big difference for me so far though is the black level, and my guess is that projecting the image on a white primed wall is not the way to get ideal black levels. Honestly though, considering that my image is as tall as two 50" plasmas and nearly as wide as three, I expected the picture quality to look worse than it is, being blown up that big.


I agree Angles. The last new projector I saw was at a friends house last year and I was really surprised at how good the picture was compared to my expectations. While I wouldn't choose it over my plasma for picture quality alone, it was impressive to say the least. We watched some sports and it was like being on the field because the players looking nearly life size. Then we played Gran Turismo and between the screen size and his home made driving console it was like driving a real car. It totally blew my mind the first time. I guess size/cinema experience vs pure picture quality is the choice we have to make.


----------



## MrAngles

Well, I put down the first row of Dri-core. A couple of the panels buckle a bit when I walk on them, but the leveling shims seem to maybe lift them up too high because they still buckle. Am I using the shims incorrectly, or will these panels feel better once I have attached another row, maybe?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Well, I put down the first row of Dri-core. A couple of the panels buckle a bit when I walk on them, but the leveling shims seem to maybe lift them up too high because they still buckle. Am I using the shims incorrectly, or will these panels feel better once I have attached another row, maybe?


I tried to use the shims where two pieces joined - that seemed to work a bit better for me. I have a couple spots that have a slight bit of give, but they were right next to the wall so I decided just to live with those...


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I tried to use the shims where two pieces joined - that seemed to work a bit better for me.


Great minds think alike, that's exactly what I was doing. I ended up trying various options last night including a continuous line of shims across the entire seam between two panels, but really anything I did made it worse than it was without any shims. So after all that I removed all shims and just put down a few more rows of panels now the first row feels totally solid. Now I'm thinking I shouldn't even check how level the panels are until the next row is down, to kind of event them out. The other thing is that I'm not that confident that those flimsy shims are going to be helpful in the long term anyway. If any panels are moving after the floor is done I might be better off drilling a hole and shooting some spray foam down there, or securing it with a tapcon. 

I've been using a set of pc speakers to listen to comedy down there lately, and with the echo in the room I've had to turn the volume way up to be able to understand what's being said. A cool thing is that with four rows of Dri-core down in the front of the room, I put the speakers on the Dricore by the wall, and the echo is significantly better already.


----------



## MrAngles

I picked up about 12'x19' of carpet remnants at Menards today for $90 after their 20% remnants sale, it will be enough go from the screen wall to the support pole, although there will be a couple feet uncarpeted on the left and right side of the room. It should be enough to make it comfortable while allowing me to take a break from construction down there while I focus on other projects during the summer.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Great minds think alike, that's exactly what I was doing. I ended up trying various options last night including a continuous line of shims across the entire seam between two panels, but really anything I did made it worse than it was without any shims. So after all that I removed all shims and just put down a few more rows of panels now the first row feels totally solid. Now I'm thinking I shouldn't even check how level the panels are until the next row is down, to kind of event them out. The other thing is that I'm not that confident that those flimsy shims are going to be helpful in the long term anyway. If any panels are moving after the floor is done I might be better off drilling a hole and shooting some spray foam down there, or securing it with a tapcon.
> 
> I've been using a set of pc speakers to listen to comedy down there lately, and with the echo in the room I've had to turn the volume way up to be able to understand what's being said. A cool thing is that with four rows of Dri-core down in the front of the room, I put the speakers on the Dricore by the wall, and the echo is significantly better already.


I would definitely steer clear of the foam. If I understand the "science" correctly, the real trick of these is to allow air flow under the panels to allow any moisture the opportunity to dry up - that is why you are supposed to leave a gap all round. If you put foam in there, it may detract from the air flow and potentially leave an area that will not dry up. Go the tapcon route if needed - I actually did end up using one in a spot where my foundation had a nice trough and it seemed to do the trick.

As far as the echo, I would not worry about it at all. I remember when I finished the walls, I was taking my iPod down there to listen to while I worked and the echo was horrible. Once the carpet and furniture go in, it drops drastically.


----------



## MrAngles

Okay, here's a unique problem. I thought I was being so clever with these puck lights I'm using for screen wash lights, screwing them into the OSB layer and set into the drywall layer so they wouldn't be sticking out. Unfortunately I measured wrong and they are not quite 5/8" tall, and screwing them into the OSB sets the cover about 1/8 or 1/4 inch below the surface of the drywall, something like this:









So that doesn't look good, because you can see the white of the drywall, also I realized that I need the cover to stick out about 1/4" anyway, so I can twist it off when I need to replace the bulb. So now I need something about 3/8" thick to use as a spacer. I tried using the 3/8" lath I used when hanging drywall, but I can't cut a small enough section to use on the tiny lip of the light. The only other thing I've come up with is maybe using a bit of a putty pad from the soundproofing company. Anyone know if that would be safe with the heat, or have any other ideas?


----------



## mtrunz

MrAngles said:


> . I tried using the 3/8" lath I used when hanging drywall, but I can't cut a small enough section to use on the tiny lip of the light. The only other thing I've come up with is maybe using a bit of a putty pad from the soundproofing company. Anyone know if that would be safe with the heat, or have any other ideas?


Angles,

When you open the housing the way you would to change bulbs, is there enough space to drill 3 or 4 holes through the bottom half of the housing? The holes only need to be big enough to freely pass a mounting screw. If space isn't available to drill clearance holes to accommodate a drywall screw then maybe a smaller size screw that will fit.

If you have the room in the bottom housing to drill the holes, then get your hands on some hollow 3/8" long standoffs/spacers. They should be easy to find in either nylon, aluminum or brass. You can probably even find hollow aluminum rod stock at Home Depot or Lowes that you can cut to length. Once you have the spacers cut to size just put the screws through the bottom of the light housing body then through the spacer and screw into the OSB to mount the pucks. Once you put the top of the light housing back in place, you'll never see the screws and it'll give you a solidly mounted puck light at the desired height.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Okay, here's a unique problem. I thought I was being so clever with these puck lights I'm using for screen wash lights, screwing them into the OSB layer and set into the drywall layer so they wouldn't be sticking out. Unfortunately I measured wrong and they are not quite 5/8" tall, and screwing them into the OSB sets the cover about 1/8 or 1/4 inch below the surface of the drywall, something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So that doesn't look good, because you can see the white of the drywall, also I realized that I need the cover to stick out about 1/4" anyway, so I can twist it off when I need to replace the bulb. So now I need something about 3/8" thick to use as a spacer. I tried using the 3/8" lath I used when hanging drywall, but I can't cut a small enough section to use on the tiny lip of the light. The only other thing I've come up with is maybe using a bit of a putty pad from the soundproofing company. Anyone know if that would be safe with the heat, or have any other ideas?


Let me give it some thought and see what I can come up with...


----------



## MrAngles

mtrunz said:


> Angles,
> 
> When you open the housing the way you would to change bulbs, is there enough space to drill 3 or 4 holes through the bottom half of the housing? The holes only need to be big enough to freely pass a mounting screw. If space isn't available to drill clearance holes to accommodate a drywall screw then maybe a smaller size screw that will fit.
> 
> If you have the room in the bottom housing to drill the holes, then get your hands on some hollow 3/8" long standoffs/spacers. They should be easy to find in either nylon, aluminum or brass. You can probably even find hollow aluminum rod stock at Home Depot or Lowes that you can cut to length. Once you have the spacers cut to size just put the screws through the bottom of the light housing body then through the spacer and screw into the OSB to mount the pucks. Once you put the top of the light housing back in place, you'll never see the screws and it'll give you a solidly mounted puck light at the desired height.


I'll take a look at it tonight but I'm pretty sure I can't drill through the bottom of the housing, they're line-level voltage lights and I think there's some kind of transformer circuitry in there to bring it down to xenon-level low voltage. However, maybe spacing under the housing will still work using the stock screw holes around the rim. They don't need to be super secure, the hole in the drywall is tight enough that they stay up even without any screws.


----------



## mtrunz

MrAngles said:


> I'll take a look at it tonight but I'm pretty sure I can't drill through the bottom of the housing, they're line-level voltage lights and I think there's some kind of transformer circuitry in there to bring it down to xenon-level low voltage. However, maybe spacing under the housing will still work using the stock screw holes around the rim. They don't need to be super secure, the hole in the drywall is tight enough that they stay up even without any screws.


I modified a similar light set to mount in a curio cabinet and if yours are the same, the transformer is housed in the plug assembly. If instead, yours have a regular plug like you'd see on a lamp or other standard appliance then maybe they do have some kind of step down circuitry inside but if they have a transformer that plugs into the wall like mine did you should have room to screw through the base. Isn't it funny how the littlest things seem to give you headaches?

If that doesn't work........ How hot do the back of the lights get? If heat from the light isn't an issue another solution might be to cut a disc to fit the hole using 1/4" ply/paneling then screw or finish nail that to the OSB and use velcro to attach the light puck to the wood disc.


----------



## ALMFamily

mtrunz said:


> I modified a similar light set to mount in a curio cabinet and if yours are the same, the transformer is housed in the plug assembly. If instead, yours have a regular plug like you'd see on a lamp or other standard appliance then maybe they do have some kind of step down circuitry inside but if they have a transformer that plugs into the wall like mine did you should have room to screw through the base. Isn't it funny how the littlest things seem to give you headaches?
> 
> *If that doesn't work........ How hot do the back of the lights get? If heat from the light isn't an issue another solution might be to cut a disc to fit the hole using 1/4" ply/paneling then screw or finish nail that to the OSB and use velcro to attach the light puck to the wood disc*.


This is what I was thinking too.....


----------



## MrAngles

So I cut a semi-disc out of 3/8" lath and that was not enough of a spacer under the body of the light, but that combined with a disc of cardboard works perfectly! I don't know if that's a sound construction method, but it works. Velcro would probably be just as thick as the cardboard, but my guess is that the heat would cause the back of the velcro to not stick so well after a while. I'll have to test it a bit.


----------



## MrAngles

mtrunz said:


> I modified a similar light set to mount in a curio cabinet and if yours are the same, the transformer is housed in the plug assembly. If instead, yours have a regular plug like you'd see on a lamp or other standard appliance then maybe they do have some kind of step down circuitry inside but if they have a transformer that plugs into the wall like mine did you should have room to screw through the base. Isn't it funny how the littlest things seem to give you headaches?
> 
> If that doesn't work........ How hot do the back of the lights get? If heat from the light isn't an issue another solution might be to cut a disc to fit the hole using 1/4" ply/paneling then screw or finish nail that to the OSB and use velcro to attach the light puck to the wood disc.


These are the ones I got http://www.lowes.com/pd_366552-53027-EC5052BK_0__?productId=3531606&Ntt=puck+light, they have regular AC plugs that snap onto the end of the wires, and they come with a simple 3-way extension cord to plug them all in. I specifically chose line-level lights... for some really important reason that I can't remember at all whatsoever anymore...

Anyway, the velcro idea appeals to me more and more, pulling the whole assembly out to change the bulb will be a lot easier than trying to twist the cap off while it's set into the sheetrock. I couldn't find any velcro lying around the house though so for now I'm using 3M double-sided tape. The back of the lights do get pretty warm, so time will tell if it will be a problem.


----------



## ALMFamily

Looks good mate! :T

I do not recall what you are using to control the lights, but I know when I wired my screen wash lights, I wired them in series as the GE unit needed to have a certain amount of power draw before it would accurately control the lighting level.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Looks good mate! :T
> 
> I do not recall what you are using to control the lights, but I know when I wired my screen wash lights, I wired them in series as the GE unit needed to have a certain amount of power draw before it would accurately control the lighting level.


Thanks man! That's a good point about low wattage lights. These all just plug into an outlet together in the front soffit, which I think puts them at a total of 80 watts, but at the moment I don't have these on a dimmer, I have them on the same zone with my overhead light, which is just on a standard wall switch. I wired each of the light arrays in the room separately (overhead, screen wash, sconces, ceiling rope light front, ceiling rope light back, floor rope light, black lights) back to the a/v rack, so theoretically I could put each of them on separate zones if I choose to get a grafik eye or something like that in the future, but for now I just have two zones in mind, overhead/screen wash on a wall switch, and sconces/rope lights on a lutron maestro (I have no idea what I'll be doing with the black light zone, if anything, but I'll cross that bridge when i get to it). Hopefully that keeps me covered enough for options in the future, but lets me use about a $45 light control solution in the meantime.


----------



## ALMFamily

Good plan IMO - are you going to do a simple on/off switch or will you do a dimmer switch for the main / screen lights?


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Good plan IMO - are you going to do a simple on/off switch or will you do a dimmer switch for the main / screen lights?


Until I figure out a remote control solution for them, I'm just going to stick with a on/off switch, I'm not sure that I'll want to dim them ever anyway, they will only be on when the projector is off. The other thing I noticed is that even with a three-bulb overhead light and the screenwash lights reflecting off the screen, the room is still pretty dark for normal conversation levels unless I turn the sconces on as well, due to the dark paint.


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## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> Until I figure out a remote control solution for them, I'm just going to stick with a on/off switch, I'm not sure that I'll want to dim them ever anyway, they will only be on when the projector is off. The other thing I noticed is that even with a three-bulb overhead light and the screenwash lights reflecting off the screen, the room is still pretty dark for normal conversation levels unless I turn the sconces on as well, due to the dark paint.


I use Insteon dimmers... You can control them via your cellphone if you buy the kit from Smarthome. I use CQC software for my Home Automation setup and controlling my equipment via a tablet PC.


----------



## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> I use Insteon dimmers... You can control them via your cellphone if you buy the kit from Smarthome. I use CQC software for my Home Automation setup and controlling my equipment via a tablet PC.


Insteon is Leviton's brand of Z-Wave stuff right? Z-Wave is what I've had in mind, I want to be able to control it from my harmony though, through something like this maybe.


----------



## mcascio

MrAngles said:


> Insteon is Leviton's brand of Z-Wave stuff right? Z-Wave is what I've had in mind, I want to be able to control it from my harmony though, through something like this maybe.


Insteon is made by Smarthome...not Leviton.

While I control Insteon through MainLobby as part of a bigger automation system, if you are just looking for basic control of lighting via IR, then this product may work for you:
http://www.smarthome.com/2411R/IRLinc-Receiver-IR-to-INSTEON-Converter/p.aspx

I personally don't have any experience with it though.


----------



## NBPk402

This might work for you too...
http://www.smarthome.com/31281/Smartenit-EZUIRT-Universal-IR-INSTEON-Transceiver-5010H/p.aspx


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## MrAngles

The couch is in!


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## NBPk402

Couch looks pretty comfy.... I don't think you will be able to make it through watching a movie in one sitting though. I will be surprised if you can stay awake.


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## ALMFamily

Yeah, that looks super comfy!


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## MrAngles

So comfy that I got the wife to make the trek downstairs to watch a movie tonight. I think that makes it officially a usable theater room, I am stoked! 

The echo really isn't that bad anymore, much more so after adding the couch than after putting the carpet remnants down. After putting in the full carpet and pad and the back row of theater seats in I expect it will be even better.


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## NBPk402

We have a similar couch and my fiance has only made it through a couple of movies without falling asleep.


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## mcascio

Yeah. With a couch like that I think you'd better stick to action movies so you don't fall asleep. Or load it up with bass shakers. Looks super comfy!!!


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## MrAngles

My wife picked out the couch, my only input was that it needs to be comfortable enough to sleep on when I'm sick (surround sound is the best medicine) or if I somehow get the opportunity to be lazy. I'm happy to say that it meets that criteria. I'm still really looking forward to getting my theater seats in the back row, but at the rate it's taking me to put together this swingset, along with the long list of other things I need to get done, my guess is that I won't have time to build the riser until after summer is over.


----------



## ALMFamily

Sigh - sure is a downer when real life gets in the way of a super HT build! 

Probably the top reason why if has taken me nearly 2 years to finish mine...


----------



## MrAngles

mcascio said:


> Insteon is made by Smarthome...not Leviton.
> 
> While I control Insteon through MainLobby as part of a bigger automation system, if you are just looking for basic control of lighting via IR, then this product may work for you:
> http://www.smarthome.com/2411R/IRLinc-Receiver-IR-to-INSTEON-Converter/p.aspx
> 
> I personally don't have any experience with it though.





ellisr63 said:


> This might work for you too...
> http://www.smarthome.com/31281/Smartenit-EZUIRT-Universal-IR-INSTEON-Transceiver-5010H/p.aspx


Thanks, I hadn't seen those before. So what's the deal with Insteon? Can you use it with other brands of Z-Wave devices? I've seen people talking about how the set up their whole house with a particular older brand, then when they went to add or replace devices/switches they had trouble with compatibility because the old brand isn't made anymore or they don't make a particular device or something... this is all from memory from when I was looking into Z-Wave months ago so I don't remember exactly, but it made me want to get things that were clearly universal.

Ultimately I think I'd like to go with Homeseer as a controller and have all the lights in the basement, a thermostat and maybe some outlets on Z-Wave. When the kids get older a camera setup in the theater room wouldn't be out of the question either....


----------



## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> Thanks, I hadn't seen those before. So what's the deal with Insteon? Can you use it with other brands of Z-Wave devices? I've seen people talking about how the set up their whole house with a particular older brand, then when they went to add or replace devices/switches they had trouble with compatibility because the old brand isn't made anymore or they don't make a particular device or something... this is all from memory from when I was looking into Z-Wave months ago so I don't remember exactly, but it made me want to get things that were clearly universal.
> 
> Ultimately I think I'd like to go with Homeseer as a controller and have all the lights in the basement, a thermostat and maybe some outlets on Z-Wave. When the kids get older a camera setup in the theater room wouldn't be out of the question either....


I use Insteon since the lights are the most affordable for home automation. I also use a ISY994i for controlling them. I have a few UPB switches which I also like but they are pretty expensive. I use CQC Software for PC control of both switches. When I go to a ELK M1, I can then control both with it from the keypads as well as my tablet (running CQC).


----------



## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> I use Insteon since the lights are the most affordable for home automation. I also use a ISY994i for controlling them. I have a few UPB switches which I also like but they are pretty expensive. I use CQC Software for PC control of both switches. When I go to a ELK M1, I can then control both with it from the keypads as well as my tablet (running CQC).


So is the CQC Software required for the ISY994i to control both brands, or is that just to allow PC control? How do you know that the ELK M1 will work with your existing equipment, is there a compatibility list? Maybe I'm making too much of the compatibility issue just because I stared out looking at Lowes' Iris system, but then found out that it doesn't work with anything else.


----------



## MrAngles

So I've watched several movies over the weekend and maybe the biggest thing that struck me was that when blasting the volume in sequences with some really heavy bass, I expected to hear some rattling just because in the last two houses where I've had this same speaker setup there was inevitably rattling in the walls from certain frequencies. My second house didn't have any shelves in the theater room or anything, but there was always some kind of rattling in the walls somewhere.

I don't know if it's the flexible construction with the 24" OC stud walls and clips and channel on the ceiling or the double drywall, or maybe just that there are no windows in the room, but all I heard was the sound of the movie, and it was great.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> So I've watched several movies over the weekend and maybe the biggest thing that struck me was that when blasting the volume in sequences with some really heavy bass, I expected to hear some rattling just because in the last two houses where I've had this same speaker setup there was inevitably rattling in the walls from certain frequencies. My second house didn't have any shelves in the theater room or anything, but there was always some kind of rattling in the walls somewhere.
> 
> I don't know if it's the flexible construction with the 24" OC stud walls and clips and channel on the ceiling or the double drywall, or maybe just that there are no windows in the room, but all I heard was the sound of the movie, and it was great.


That is awesome - it was at that point when I knew all the time / effort / money spent isolating the room was all worth it...


----------



## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> So is the CQC Software required for the ISY994i to control both brands, or is that just to allow PC control? How do you know that the ELK M1 will work with your existing equipment, is there a compatibility list? Maybe I'm making too much of the compatibility issue just because I stared out looking at Lowes' Iris system, but then found out that it doesn't work with anything else.


I used Insteon and UPB in my last house with the ELk M1 gold and it worked fine... I also used CQC software for PC control of my AV equipment and lighting. In my current house I am working on controlling lighting, AV equipment, Sprinklers, and HVAC with CQC. I designed my own templates for my last home for CQC and I am now starting over with new equipment so I am re doing all my templates. There are other PC control software out there but I have been using CQC for years now and I am happy with it. As far as the ISY994i, it is compatible with the ELK M1 too. If you check Smarthome you can filter Insteon, and ELK (along with UPB and others) and you will see what is compatible with both.

I also looked at Lowes Iris and loved the idea of just running down to Lowes to get my pieces but then I found out just like you that it is not compatible with anything.


----------



## MrAngles

I'm thinking about getting these sconces from Lowes. 








I'm not totally sold on them, but I can't bring myself to buy sconces online that I haven't seen in person, and I can't find a single lighting store in Des Moines for some reason, Lowes and Home Depot are the closest I can get apparently.


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## NBPk402

Looks nice to me.


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## ALMFamily

Same here - if you do not like the color of the frame, can you remove the glass and paint them a color you prefer more?


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Same here - if you do not like the color of the frame, can you remove the glass and paint them a color you prefer more?


I believe so, yeah. I like oil-rubbed bronze a lot, when it's done right, it's hard to tell from the picture how it will look in real life though, At least with Lowes I can return them I don't like them after putting them up on the wall. My hesitation I guess is that I'm not at all sure what I want yet, in terms of modern vs classic, tall vs wide, more light output up vs down or directly out of the glass, etc. I think I'll pick these up today, putting *something* up on the wall other than a bare bulb will at least give me a better idea of what I like and what I don't like, I think.


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## ALMFamily

Conversely, you could look at these:

http://www.stargatecinema.com/paintable-sconces/

That way, you could pick the shape you desired and paint them whatever color you wished...


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## MrAngles

Well, I put them up, and I don't feel much more confident about what I will like yet, but I'm pretty sure I don't like these:

























I don't know if it's the bronze fixture or the amber glass, but they look like they belong on a Game of Thrones set, and really out of place in my room, I think. With that in mind I guess I should look for something more modern, like this, maybe.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Conversely, you could look at these:
> 
> http://www.stargatecinema.com/paintable-sconces/
> 
> That way, you could pick the shape you desired and paint them whatever color you wished...


I don't understand why sconces are so expensive. None of those are much more complicated than a $10 ceiling light, but they are mostly over $100 each. I'd feel better about spending that much if I was sure what I wanted... but it seems like I'm way too picky at the moment.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> I don't understand why sconces are so expensive. None of those are much more complicated than a $10 ceiling light, but they are mostly over $100 each. I'd feel better about spending that much if I was sure what I wanted... but it seems like I'm way too picky at the moment.


I know - after you posted that one, I took a look through Home Depot's offerings for sconces. It was one sticker shock after another....

Are you planning on doing columns at all?


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Are you planning on doing columns at all?


Probably not, they'd be right in the walkway that's already too small anyway, and I don't see myself being motivated to ever go to the effort. What I would like to do at some point probably is to put in some curtains, which would kind of serve the same visual purpose in my mind. And maybe the biggest problem here is that sconces look a little odd in general on a plain flat wall.


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## NBPk402

You could always make your own... Be a little creative and you can make all of them for less than the price of one! Maybe get some inexpenseive LED bulbs and some rice paper? I made some real inexpensive lights for our deck out of Grey Goose bottles and 1 watt LEDs... $6 for the LEDs, $.50 for the pigtails and then picked up a landscape lighting set from Goodwill for $10 (lights, wiring and transformer). You could get some copper squares and cutout a pattern, bow it to the wall and have a custom light for the price of the copper. Just be creative and save the cash for something... Maybe take the wife out to dinner with the cash you save.


----------



## Prof.

MrAngles said:


> I don't know if it's the bronze fixture or the amber glass, but they look like they belong on a Game of Thrones set, and really out of place in my room, I think. With that in mind I guess I should look for something more modern, like this, maybe.


If it's just a plain curved face that appeals to you, why not make them up yourself!?
A plastics fabrication shop can curve the opal acrylic for you to what ever width and length you want and then all you need to do is to mount a lamp holder on the wall and place the curved acrylic over it..fixing it on with a couple of little brackets..
That would give you an illuminated face with light spread up the wall..
You could probably get four opal faces done for about $100!


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## MrAngles

I would love to make some myself, but I need to figure out what style works for the room first I guess. I'm going to pick up a couple different styles from Lowes today I think, and see what they look like on the wall.

To complicate things further, I showed my wife the pictures of the ones I put down there already, and she says she likes them, and then started showing me pictures of a bunch of sconces online that look like candle holders and stuff... I'm clearly overthinking this stuff, I tend to get ridiculously picky about these kinds of details.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Are you planning on doing columns at all?


being worried about floor space, I *could* steal your partial columns idea, that would look good I bet.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Probably not, they'd be right in the walkway that's already too small anyway, and I don't see myself being motivated to ever go to the effort. What I would like to do at some point probably is to put in some curtains, which would kind of serve the same visual purpose in my mind. And maybe the biggest problem here is that sconces look a little odd in general on a plain flat wall.


What would you think about making a 1" deep box, staining it, and mounting those sconces to that? It would help to break up the flatness of the wall, and it would not stick out far enough to be a hindrance to the walkway.

I would probably give it a rectangular shape - something along the same ratio as the sconce...


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> What would you think about making a 1" deep box, staining it, and mounting those sconces to that? It would help to break up the flatness of the wall, and it would not stick out far enough to be a hindrance to the walkway.
> 
> I would probably give it a rectangular shape - something along the same ratio as the sconce...


That's exactly what I was thinking. The other thing is that there's no trim on the wall anywhere, not even baseboard. I'd bet that even without a wood panel, these sconces would look better once I have baseboard and crown molding up to break up the flat gray wall.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> That's exactly what I was thinking. The other thing is that there's no trim on the wall anywhere, not even baseboard. I'd bet that even without a wood panel, these sconces would look better once I have baseboard and crown molding up to break up the flat gray wall.


Very true. Are you planning on mounting posters or something along those lines as well?


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Very true. Are you planning on mounting posters or something along those lines as well?


No posters, but absorption panels and/or curtains. I love the way the chair rail looks in your theater, so that's something I've been considering as well.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> No posters, but absorption panels and/or curtains. I love the way the chair rail looks in your theater, so that's something I've been considering as well.


Panels will probably break it up real well IMO.....


----------



## MrAngles

Okay, we picked up five different sconces from Lowes last week and tried them out, and ultimately figured out that the original sconces I picked out were the right ones, and I just need to calm down about it. I realize that this is boring to everybody but me, but I'm talking about it in public anyway, and posting pictures.

































Anyway, that's done. At some point I'll put wood panels behind them and they'll look great. This also means I'll finally be able to hook up my Lutron Maestro dimmer to the sconces (*amateurtip:* having the bare bulbs hooked up often resulted in a short, which was bad for the maestro, even while switched off. Two replacement dimmers later, I decided to wait until the fixtures were set up permanently before putting the maestro in). 

Also, I've figured out a way to use two Maestros to control two zones independently of each other. The Harmony 900 doesn't just send IR signals from the remote and the RF base station simultaneously, it allows you to assign specific devices to either the remote or the base station. Using this, I can set up two separate Maestros in the remote, one controlled by the base station in the A/V rack, and one in the room controlled by the remote, using different buttons. The unfortunate thing is that I'll have to point the remote back to the entrance of the room to control the overhead and screen wash lights, and the maestros are only available in white, which is a little distracting on the gray wall.


----------



## MrAngles

Now that I have usable sconces I've realized that my L&R speakers cast shadows on the screen.  I guess I need to scale down the screen a bit and plan to mount it a few inches off of the wall.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Okay, we picked up five different sconces from Lowes last week and tried them out, and ultimately figured out that the original sconces I picked out were the right ones, and I just need to calm down about it. I realize that this is boring to everybody but me, but I'm talking about it in public anyway, and posting pictures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, that's done. At some point I'll put wood panels behind them and they'll look great. This also means I'll finally be able to hook up my Lutron Maestro dimmer to the sconces (*amateurtip:* having the bare bulbs hooked up often resulted in a short, which was bad for the maestro, even while switched off. Two replacement dimmers later, I decided to wait until the fixtures were set up permanently before putting the maestro in).
> 
> Also, I've figured out a way to use two Maestros to control two zones independently of each other. The Harmony 900 doesn't just send IR signals from the remote and the RF base station simultaneously, it allows you to assign specific devices to either the remote or the base station. Using this, I can set up two separate Maestros in the remote, one controlled by the base station in the A/V rack, and one in the room controlled by the remote, using different buttons. The unfortunate thing is that I'll have to point the remote back to the entrance of the room to control the overhead and screen wash lights, and the maestros are only available in white, which is a little distracting on the gray wall.


Really like the look of that 4th picture - and I think doing that wood panel behind it will really set it off well.

Too bad on the shadows - that said, how often will you have the sconces on when you are watching something?


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Really like the look of that 4th picture - and I think doing that wood panel behind it will really set it off well.
> 
> Too bad on the shadows - that said, how often will you have the sconces on when you are watching something?


Thanks for the feedback. I like the 4th picture as well. However, they are rather small, and more importantly, someone else in the family doesn't like them *at all*. The original ones








are bigger than any of the other ones I tried out, and we all decided we liked the larger size. Also, having gotten used to them a bit, my initial reaction of thinking they looked ridiculous has worn off, especially having two pairs of them on each wall. Having them only on one side of the room was pretty silly looking, having them all up makes them look more like they belong there.

As far as having the sconces on while watching something, I don't know. I had an idea in my head that the sconces could be on at a dim level while watching something casually, so I could see my laptop keys or what have you. I tend to do a lot of work with a movie on. Currently though, having the sconces on anything other than the dimmer's lowest level causes the image to get washed out a bit. it will be interesting to see what affect a higher gain screen, or maybe just screen paint on the wall will have on that.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I like the 4th picture as well. However, they are rather small, and more importantly, someone else in the family doesn't like them *at all*. The original ones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> are bigger than any of the other ones I tried out, and we all decided we liked the larger size. Also, having gotten used to them a bit, my initial reaction of thinking they looked ridiculous has worn off, especially having two pairs of them on each wall. Having them only on one side of the room was pretty silly looking, having them all up makes them look more like they belong there.
> 
> As far as having the sconces on while watching something, I don't know. I had an idea in my head that the sconces could be on at a dim level while watching something casually, so I could see my laptop keys or what have you. I tend to do a lot of work with a movie on. Currently though, having the sconces on anything other than the dimmer's lowest level causes the image to get washed out a bit. it will be interesting to see what affect a higher gain screen, or maybe just screen paint on the wall will have on that.


If it helps, the only time I have lights on is when I am watching sports. And, I have the lights dimmed to about 50% with no screen wash lights on when I do that....


----------



## MrAngles

Basement flooded a bit... I turned on one of the outside spigots today and it started shooting all over the place. I didn't think about it that much, but apparently in the time it took to fill my kid's water table enough water shot back in through the siding somehow that it got a bunch of water in the front soffit, dripping through the puck lights and behind the screen wall to some extent. The front section of carpet is soaked, the front row of Dri-core is damp and there's water under it, there's a seam on the screen wall that moisture has come through. The left side soffit has a water line running through it, and a few seams on that soffit are showing up through the paint now.

I've been watching the water meter and it hasn't moved for a half hour, so there isn't a leak in the line, it must have all just come in from the spigot somehow... Now I'm trying to figure out whether I need to pull out all the Dri-core or mess with the drywall at all, or if i can just let it dry on it's own.

I had thought about rerouting the water lines outside of the theater during construction but I didn't want to have to move the spigot... hindsight is 20/20.


----------



## MrAngles

It seems like everything is dry down there this morning. I still have a slightly dark line going down one of the seams in my screen wall though, and there are several sections of the soffit where the paint has cracked around the corner bead or I can see where screws are now. Maybe I can get by with just touching up the paint, I'm worried about mold and whatnot growing in the soffit/behind the wall though. The front row of Dri-core _may_ be warped a bit, but I don't think it will be noticeable under carpet.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Basement flooded a bit... I turned on one of the outside spigots today and it started shooting all over the place. I didn't think about it that much, but apparently in the time it took to fill my kid's water table enough water shot back in through the siding somehow that it got a bunch of water in the front soffit, dripping through the puck lights and behind the screen wall to some extent. The front section of carpet is soaked, the front row of Dri-core is damp and there's water under it, there's a seam on the screen wall that moisture has come through. The left side soffit has a water line running through it, and a few seams on that soffit are showing up through the paint now.
> 
> I've been watching the water meter and it hasn't moved for a half hour, so there isn't a leak in the line, it must have all just come in from the spigot somehow... Now I'm trying to figure out whether I need to pull out all the Dri-core or mess with the drywall at all, or if i can just let it dry on it's own.
> 
> I had thought about rerouting the water lines outside of the theater during construction but I didn't want to have to move the spigot... hindsight is 20/20.





MrAngles said:


> It seems like everything is dry down there this morning. I still have a slightly dark line going down one of the seams in my screen wall though, and there are several sections of the soffit where the paint has cracked around the corner bead or I can see where screws are now. Maybe I can get by with just touching up the paint, I'm worried about mold and whatnot growing in the soffit/behind the wall though. The front row of Dri-core _may_ be warped a bit, but I don't think it will be noticeable under carpet.


Ugh - that really stinks mate. If you have one, I would suggest having a large fan blowing on that drywall for a bit to ensure it dries through. Before you touch up the paint, consider hitting those areas with some bleach water and Kilz to help deter any potential mold.

Do you have access to be able to repair the spigot?


----------



## MrAngles

I'm thinking about getting a dehumidifier today to work on that area, I have a couple mid-size fans I can put down there too. I can replace the spigot from the outside, but having established that there is no water flowing when the water is shut off, I don't understand how the water got from the spigot into the house.

Rather than risk another situation like this I think I'm going to add a spigot above the mechanical room and seal up and bypass the existing one. The water line currently runs from the mechanical room through the right side of the front soffit to the left side, splits off to the spigot in the corner, then runs the length of the left soffit to the kitchen. It always seemed like a weak link to me, and now I know why...


----------



## ALMFamily

I seem to recall having an issue similar with one of mine where it would only leak when you opened the outside valve. No idea why it worked that way and I ended up just having my neighbor's plumber buddy replace the spigot - works fine now.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I seem to recall having an issue similar with one of mine where it would only leak when you opened the outside valve. No idea why it worked that way and I ended up just having my neighbor's plumber buddy replace the spigot - works fine now.


Back in Oregon I had a couple spigots that were leaky and I never bothered to replace them. However, as far as I know they never leaked back into the crawlspace like this. Maybe the builders forgot to seal everything up in this case?


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## MrAngles

I set up a dehumidifier down there. Here are a couple pictures of what the damage is.
















The cracks on the corner bead edge look like they are deeper than just the paint level.


----------



## MrAngles

I've poured seven cups of water out of the dehumidifier so far, and humidity has gone down from 65 to 60 on the dehumidifier's display. The line one the screen is barely noticable now, I'm feeling a little better now...


----------



## MrAngles

Poured four more cups of water out of the dehumidifier, then my daughter turned on the spigot again, and I got to see the water running down the screen wall as it was happening... Anyway, my son and I decided to check out the spigot and see what was going on there.

















As you can see after unscrewing the thing, I was able to just pull the entire pipe out of the wall a few inches. There's no caulk or anything sealing the hole whatsoever. I don't do a lot of plumbing, but I don't think that's the way it's supposed to be.

On a positive note, we had our first family night in the theater room listening to the weather radio, and it went really well. My wife really appreciated it, and I was really proud that the room was ready in time for the tornado warning.


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## bamabum

I don't believe that will cause the leak unless the pipe is not screwed or sweated correctly. Sound like the plumber didn't attach the pipe to the stud in the wall with a U bracket.


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## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> I don't believe that will cause the leak unless the pipe is not screwed or sweated correctly. Sound like the plumber didn't attach the pipe to the stud in the wall with a U bracket.


The best I can tell though, the water is leaking out of the spigot into the pipe, and running along the outside of the pipe through the wall. If the siding was sealed around the pipe, wouldn't it have prevented this?


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## bamabum

The plastic flange on the back should have prevented. That is it purpose. To cover the hole in siding and make it drop down. You said there was major water damage? Cup of water in the air. Does it continuously leak from the top siphon preventer or from the turn handle?


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## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> The plastic flange on the back should have prevented. That is it purpose. To cover the hole in siding and make it drop down. You said there was major water damage? Cup of water in the air. Does it continuously leak from the top siphon preventer or from the turn handle?


I believe it was the handle that was leaking, it was hard to tell though, because it was spraying everywhere. With the valve closed, there is no leak whatsoever.


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## bamabum

After reading / looking at your pics more I agree it's easy to have the plumber replace the unit. That flange keeps the pipe in place by compression so you don't need to secure to the studs. It also should have caused the water to run down before in. I would replace and silicone behind for safe measures. 

On a different sadder note. Did it wet drywall or insulation dramatically? You might be very careful of mold. It can take some time before if will show through especially with black paint. Is there wet drywall or just damp air?

I've had a few pipes bust / leak unknowingly. It always easier to rip drywall out during the build instead of later and seeing the mold I lived with makes me sick.


----------



## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> After reading / looking at your pics more I agree it's easy to have the plumber replace the unit. That flange keeps the pipe in place by compression so you don't need to secure to the studs. It also should have caused the water to run down before in. I would replace and silicone behind for safe measures.
> 
> On a different sadder note. Did it wet drywall or insulation dramatically? You might be very careful of mold. It can take some time before if will show through especially with black paint. Is there wet drywall or just damp air?
> 
> I've had a few pipes bust / leak unknowingly. It always easier to rip drywall out during the build instead of later and seeing the mold I lived with makes me sick.


I really don't know how much water is in there. I only had the water turned on for maybe a total of 10 minutes, and most of the water was going through the hose. There was quite a bit of water on the floor, the carpet was soaked and the water under the Dri-core made it all the way to the mechanical room. I have to think that most of the water found ways to drain out of the soffit. When my daughter turned the spigot on today I watched the water running down the wall from the inside corner where the soffit meets the wall. I'm running the dehumidifier constantly, if this damp OSB smell doesn't go away in a couple days, or gets worse, I guess I get to talk to my insurance company. I wouldn't want to have to do all this work again, but with all the soundproofing, I'm not sure I could leave it up to a contractor.


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## bamabum

Very sorry to hear. Check out a moisture meter. They are cheap and work. You can determine where and the severity of the water damage.


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## MrAngles

Okay, learning more about how "freeze-proof" faucets work, I think I know what happened. The faucet is actually 6+ inches long, with the valve stem going all the way into the house, so the faucet probably burst inside the house. Apparently this can happen when it's connected to the plumbing system with plastic pipe, which it is in my case.

The drywall on the bottom of the front soffit is really cracking now along the edge of the corner bead, so I made a call to Servpro and my insurance company to get things started. I recently upped my water damage coverage to $25k, so there's plenty of money available, the hard part will be explaining the complicated soundproofing construction to the adjuster and the guy doing the estimate, because I'm sure we're at least going to have to tear up the bottom of the front and left soffits.


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## bamabum

Sry to hear. 

The sensor tool in the link below can help you spot damage with tearing out. This was helpful to me when determining how far to tear out and to provide sanity checks in surrounding areas. This is the tool (but maybe a different brand) a mold remediation company used as well. 

http://m.homedepot.com/p/General-Tools-Digital-Moisture-Meter-with-LCD-Display-MMD4E/100651808

It determined water even below wood surfacing.


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## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> Sry to hear.
> 
> The sensor tool in the link below can help you spot damage with tearing out. This was helpful to me when determining how far to tear out and to provide sanity checks in surrounding areas. This is the tool (but maybe a different brand) a mold remediation company used as well.
> 
> http://m.homedepot.com/p/General-Tools-Digital-Moisture-Meter-with-LCD-Display-MMD4E/100651808
> 
> It determined water even below wood surfacing.


I was just about to get one of those until I just decided to get the pros out to check it. If the moisture level is ok I may just get away with leaving the OSB layer alone and just replacing the cracked drywall layer. Either way though the real expense is going to be the labor of mudding and taping, redoing the corner bead, texturing, painting.


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## MrAngles

Well, I got a check for $3755 this morning from Nationwide Insurance. It seems like he was pretty generous on everything, and between hanging the drywall myself and little things like taking care of the debris myself I should be able to save myself the deductible. The most frustrating thing will be taking all the surround speakers down when it comes time to mud and tape I think.


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## bamabum

Great news.

Cant you just plastic wrap the speakers or are they too close to the damage?

I left mine in the room the entire soffit drywall and just plastic wrapped. I did wait 2 days for the dust to settle and vacuumed before I uncovered.


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## MrAngles

Plastic wrap sounds like a much better alternative if it works. My only idea was thinking of plastic covers like for painting, taped up, which I was worried would not fully protect them.

So regarding Dri-core, several of the panels in the front two rows of Dri-core (at the screen wall) are a little warped to the point where some of the edges are raised slightly, etc. This section is 2-3 feet in front of the screen where no one should be walking, and I'll have to pull out ALL the Dri-core in order to replace them. Should I worry about replacing them? Will anyone who actually walks there even feel it under carpet and pad?


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## bamabum

you can use plastic wrap on the fronts. and use painters drape thin mil plastic to wrap afterwards and secure with frog or painters tape easily.

Since I had various stages of the build not in the right order due to deliver times and my time, I had to constantly cover items during drywall efforts.

Since you have seating I would hang the cheap painters plastic with frog tape on top and bottom and section off the seating and rear area with only a walkway exposed. then hang another sheet enclosing the work area. you should wear a mask during drywall sanding if you do this. The dust will work its way everywhere in the air for 2 days so you really have to quarantine and vacuum often.

I had a spot in the floor I replaced when I had a leak i my office. I had a contractor do the work while I was out of town. when I returned I found he used plywood that was off by 1/8. I thought there was no way you could feel this under padded carpet so I left it. Now every time I walk across the spot I feel it, but I'm sure no one else does. You can always use a circular hand saw and cut out the portion if you can find the joists below and leave 1/2 on the joist for support and add new cross members to support the new pieces.. Just set the saw to the right depth and then use the cut out wood as a template for a replacement piece.


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## MrAngles

Thank you, you are a wealth of information. As far as the subfloor goes, only speakers should be there, not people, so the more I think about it the less concerned I am. If I decide to build a stage it will end up right on top of the affected area, as well.

Anyway, now for some sad pictures:
























I've heard it said that Green Glue earns it's name once it's had time to cure, and now I've seen it first hand. Getting the drywall off of the OSB layer is maddening. Ultimately I found it easier to take all the screws out of the drywall layer, and then dig around in the drywall to find all the OSB layer screws and pull both layers out together.

The bottom section of the side soffit is just double drywall, that was easy to get out, especially since I could basically shove my fingers through some of it due to how wet it was. The top layer looked felt and smelled like wet clay. A good potion of the insulation was still wet as well. I still need to rip some more of it out tonight, then tomorrow some guys are going to come in with some industrial fans and dehumidifiers to dry it all out.


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## ALMFamily

Sorry, a little late here, but I would not replace the Dri-Core either. As you said, that is where the speakers are, you will not be on it much at all.


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## bamabum

yuck... It doesn't look as bad as it sounded though. Just a lot of hard work.

I had a serious leak in the past on a house I purchased. The damage led to mold remediation. It involved testing to ensure remediation and a professional company specializing in mold. What I learned was porous items cannot be saved. Non Porous items can only be saved if dried promptly. If they grow mold on the surface it spreads.

Drywall and Insulation all had to be ripped without question. They simply do not fully dry out regardless of how it appears. Wet OSB had to be ripped because there was mold growing on the bottom that wasn't visible on top and testing found it. Lumber such as framing has to be air dried for a few days and then sprayed with something to kill the surface mold. We coated everything with anti mold spray or paint after it was all opened up. Testing showed these steps killed all the mold. 

I hope not to scare you, just offering what I learned. Catching it fast was your best advantage.


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## MrAngles

Yeah they told me they'd need to spray in there. It doesn't appear that any of the drywall on the side of the soffits got wet, so that will save me work and expense, and the framing is barely wet at all, so it should have no problem being saved. The thing I'm worried about is where my screen wall got wet. The drywall went up before the soffit, so to take all that drywall out I'd need to take the soffit down... Early moisture tests said that the wall itself is dry now though, hopefully that's the case with the drywall above the soffit level as well.


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## MrAngles

I'm back!

So FirstCall dried out the soffits with five industrial fans and a giant dehumidifier and sprayed an anti-microbial agent on the affected surfaces. Then I ran new plumbing from the water heater directly to the kitchen completely outside of the theater room, and had a new spigot put in that is accessible from inside the cabinet under the kitchen sink, so if it bursts the problem will be easier to deal with. Now I have to figure out a way to patch the hole where the faulty spigot used to be, I'll probably just replace the whole piece of siding if I can find the right color.

I haven't had the enthusiasm to work on rebuilding the soffit yet. However, my wife got me my seats for the back row for fathers day and they were delivered on Saturday, so hopefully they will inspire me a bit. I've already started working on figuring out my riser dimensions. Let me know if anyone else has done this with Dri-core:








It looks right now like it's going to be 7' deep x 8.5' wide x 14" tall. 14" seems really tall, but that's how tall it needs to be for me to be fully reclined in the back row with someone my height sighting up in the front row without their head obstructing the picture. I guess I need to determine how often I'll actually be fully reclined in back while someone is sitting fully upright in front. The other thing I need to think about is how high the bar counter will be directly behind the back row. I'd like it to be right at the top of the seats.


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## MrAngles

Sitting that high, aside from my head being really close to the projector, I also noticed a big difference in the sound out of my front speakers, since they are aimed straight forward and are at ear level for a normal sitting position. I may end up needing to build a stage just to give them some extra height. The other thing I noticed was that pushing the front row forward a foot has made the screen seem slightly uncomfortably large for that row. I'm thinking about taking the feet off of the couch and seeing if that helps, and if it does I'll try to get some shorter feet for it, which would keep me from having to reduce the screen size, and shave a couple inches off of the riser height as well.

The back row will be where I'll be sitting most of the time, so I hate to compromise screen size just for the couch when it won't get used as much.


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## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> Sitting that high, aside from my head being really close to the projector, I also noticed a big difference in the sound out of my front speakers, since they are aimed straight forward and are at ear level for a normal sitting position. I may end up needing to build a stage just to give them some extra height. The other thing I noticed was that pushing the front row forward a foot has made the screen see, slightly uncomfortably large for that row. I'm thinking about taking the feet off of the couch and seeing if that helps, and if it does I'll try to get some shorter feet for it, which would keep me from having to reduce the screen size, and shave a couple inches off of the riser height as well.
> 
> The back row will be where I'll be sitting most of the time, so I hate to compromise screen size just for the couch when it won't get used as much.


If you like the way the couch is without the feet and still want feet... You could get a 1x4 and use a hole saw to make some short feet. Why not just go without feet? Unless you are moving the couch it shouldn't do any harm, plus it makes it easier to clean if nothing can get under it.


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## MrAngles

Good idea. I don't know about going without feet though, I feel like especially in the basement you want a little airflow under furniture.


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## MrAngles

Feet are off of the couch now. It's a little short now, but it's a good compromise to raising the back row up too high. As it is, the riser is 14.5" high off of the concrete and fully reclined sometimes my feet can obscure the picture a bit.

Anyway, I drew up plans for the riser and rear bar area, and I'm looking for some feedback.
















Mainly I'm concerned about two things:
1. I'd like to have more than a 2'4" walkway on the right side of the riser, seeing as it's the main walkway in the room. I was thinking of just shifting it 4" to the left, so I'd have 2'8" on the right side, and 2' on the left side.
2. The top of the back row seats in this plan are 11 inches above the counter. I don't know if anyone will actually ever be watching a movie from behind the counter, but I'd like the option to be there, so I was considering raising the floor back there and the counter some more to make that work better.
3. Is a 1 foot deep, 2 foot wide, 7.5 inch tall step the right way to go here?

If anything else in the design catches your eye or something isn't clear, please let me know too.

Thanks!


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Feet are off of the couch now. It's a little short now, but it's a good compromise to raising the back row up too high. As it is, the riser is 14.5" high off of the concrete and fully reclined sometimes my feet can obscure the picture a bit.
> 
> Anyway, I drew up plans for the riser and rear bar area, and I'm looking for some feedback.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mainly I'm concerned about two things:
> 1. I'd like to have more than a 2'4" walkway on the right side of the riser, seeing as it's the main walkway in the room. I was thinking of just shifting it 4" to the left, so I'd have 2'8" on the right side, and 2' on the left side.
> 2. The top of the back row seats in this plan are 11 inches above the counter. I don't know if anyone will actually ever be watching a movie from behind the counter, but I'd like the option to be there, so I was considering raising the floor back there and the counter some more to make that work better.
> 3. Is a 1 foot deep, 2 foot wide, 7.5 inch tall step the right way to go here?
> 
> If anything else in the design catches your eye or something isn't clear, please let me know too.
> 
> Thanks!


1. I think 2'4" will be fine. Mine is 2' and I have not had any issues. 

2. I do not think it would be necessary to raise it, but I would take a bar stool in and sit in it to make sure you can see the screen. Personally, I would prefer to have the seats stick above the counter - reduces the chance of having something spilled on the seats and anyone sitting there.

3. Where is the step going?


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## ALMFamily

Strike that - I see the step now. I think those dimensions work fine.


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## MrAngles

Awesome, thank you. Now I need to plan out my riser construction. To get it 14.5" high with a pressure-treated bottom plate, I'm guessing I should do 2x4 pressure treated, 2x12s, and two layers of 3/4" OSB. Any hints on how I should cut and lay the OSB for best structural integrity? I'm not at all sure how to put the cutout steps in either.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Awesome, thank you. Now I need to plan out my riser construction. To get it 14.5" high with a pressure-treated bottom plate, I'm guessing I should do 2x4 pressure treated, 2x12s, and two layers of 3/4" OSB. Any hints on how I should cut and lay the OSB for best structural integrity? I'm not at all sure how to put the cutout steps in either.


Hmmm.... 14.5" makes it a bit more difficult. Would 15" be too high? If not, you could construct the riser using 2x14 pressure treated and then the two layers of OSB. If so, then yes, you will have to go with the 2x4 bottom plate method.

As far as the OSB, I just made sure to cross seams - I laid the first layer one way and the second layer "perpendicular". I did put a layer of roofing felt under the riser as well as between the OSB layers. The one under the riser was to help keep the insulation dust contained - I used silicone to help seal it. The one between the OSB layers was to reduce chances of rattling.

Check out Mario's and Bamabum's build - IIRC, they both did steps and that should help with a visual.


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## mcascio

Initially, I was going to do standard step heights in the theater. But what happens is you may have to sacrifice the optimal viewing for one or both of the levels of seating. I think the rule of thumb is for the eyes to be level with the lower third of the screen...which for me was challenging with a 2.35 screen. I ended up only making the difference between the seating heights 11.5" (5.75" per step).

My seats are staggered so I've never had a problem seeing the screen when watching from the back row and a tall person sits in from. Since yours won't be staggered perhaps the higher riser makes sense. 

Just some food for thought though.


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## MrAngles

I planned on doing a bottom plate just because it would be significantly cheaper. A 12 foot (shortest length menards has on the website) pressure treated 2x14 is $72, while a regular 10 foot 2x12 is $15. I figured I'd run the pressure treated "joists" lengthwise, and the 2x12s perpendicular to that, and put roofing felt between the pressure treated and the 2x12 construction to avoid wicking of moisture through the pressure treated into the non-pressure treated, and also to provide a surface to lay insulation on.

Looks like Bamabum framed the full-height riser and added the steps separately afterwards. I kind of thought that's what I would end up doing, I just worry about a 1'x2' step wobbling a little after a while if it was completely separate. I guess I just need to make sure I glue them really good and use a lot of screws.


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## MrAngles

mcascio said:


> Initially, I was going to do standard step heights in the theater. But what happens is you may have to sacrifice the optimal viewing for one or both of the levels of seating. I think the rule of thumb is for the eyes to be level with the lower third of the screen...which for me was challenging with a 2.35 screen. I ended up only making the difference between the seating heights 11.5" (5.75" per step).
> 
> My seats are staggered so I've never had a problem seeing the screen when watching from the back row and a tall person sits in from. Since yours won't be staggered perhaps the higher riser makes sense.
> 
> Just some food for thought though.


Staggering the seats is a good point, and technically the front row is a three person couch, but with the way it's laid out with half of it being a lounge, most of the time it will probably only have two people on it on opposite sides of the couch (unless they aren't paying attention to the movie, and in that case the back row will be vacant anyway).

The 14.5" riser with the seats in a reclined position is actually right in line with the middle of the bottom 1/2 of the screen in my case, not perfect, but it actually feels pretty great to watch at that height. My only concerns with having it that high really were how close it is to the projector and ceiling, and obscuring the view from the bar area behind it. The projector noise has proven to not be a problem at all in eco mode surprisingly, even in the back row, and the bar area really doesn't matter when it comes down to it, I really just want that counter so I have a surface to set things on. With the feet off of the couch in the front row it does feel a little weird if you're sitting up, but again the front row isn't my primary viewing row.

I've been obsessing about the riser height all week and it's good to hear you say it doesn't have to be perfect. Technically riser calculators tell me it should be 21" tall for me to be reclined and still see the screen. What I have to come to grips with I think is that if tall people are sitting in the front row I just don't need to be reclined all the way.


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## MrAngles

Here's what I've come up with for the riser design:








I'm planning for a 2" lip on all sides except for the back, for a finished 6'x9' platform.
Having 8'1" stringers on the bottom plate kills me, I'm not sure if I can use 8 footers and let the main structure hang over the bottom plate by a half inch on each side, or if I should just shave an inch off of the width of the whole thing.


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## MrAngles

Would it make sense to use 7/16" OSB for the 1st layer and 3/4" on top of that? I ask because I found these 4x9 "wall sheathing" panels. Since they're 4x9 and my riser is 9' wide I could lay two of those across the riser lengthwise, and lay the 3/4" 4'x8' OSB across the other way to stagger the seams easily.


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## ALMFamily

If memory serves, when I was building mine someone suggested that doing one layer would be sufficient for OSB. I decided to do two anyway as I wanted to do trim across the top, but I think that you would be ok with doing the first layer as 7/16".


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## MrAngles

That's what I assumed, thank you.

Here's another one I just thought of today. I already called some carpet places about it but I was only able to talk to salesmen so I'm not entirely confident about it. The current plan for the raised floor behind the bar looks like this:








Which has a 1-1/2" lip and about 1-5/8" vertical down to the Dri-core. Is this enough clearance for carpet to be installed tight to the lip and down the side to allow a space for rope light to go? I'm hoping somebody here has watched carpet installers carpet stairs or risers and would give me an idea of if I need a couple more inches or something. I plan to get some pretty plush carpet, which may be a factor.


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## ALMFamily

Sorry, not much help on that one. If they have to use tackless strips there though, I do not think they will be able to get them in that space.

Since it is less than two inches and you have the overhang, why not just go to the riser with the carpet and not up the side? Then, you could do the rope lighting under the lip and cover the face with some kind of finished trim face. It would look very similar to mine if you want to see a picture...


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Sorry, not much help on that one. If they have to use tackless strips there though, I do not think they will be able to get them in that space.
> 
> Since it is less than two inches and you have the overhang, why not just go to the riser with the carpet and not up the side? Then, you could do the rope lighting under the lip and cover the face with some kind of finished trim face. It would look very similar to mine if you want to see a picture...


I've seen yours and it looks great, the finished wood look is a little too fancy for me to handle at this point though. However, since there will be rope light in there anyway and a 1-1/2" overhang I guess I wouldn't ever see the face anyway. I still want to make sure they can staple the carpet to the underside of the lip though.


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## mtrunz

Angles,
I just caught up on the last 10 or so pages of your thread that were added since I last logged on. So sorry to hear about your water damage after all that hard work. That's every HT builder's biggest nightmare. What a major bummer when you were so close to finishing. It sounds like you have it all well in hand now so I'm happy for you in that regard. Keep up the good work. The space is looking good. :T


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## MrAngles

I appreciate the support! I'm chalking this all up to experience. This being my first basement I figured I'd have to deal with water problems eventually, and in this case nothing irreplaceable was lost and it happened before I put an actual screen up or had carpet installed, so I consider myself lucky.

I'm looking forward to seeing you get back to work!


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## mtrunz

MrAngles said:


> I appreciate the support! I'm chalking this all up to experience. This being my first basement I figured I'd have to deal with water problems eventually, and in this case nothing irreplaceable was lost and it happened before I put an actual screen up or had carpet installed, so I consider myself lucky.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing you get back to work!


That's a great attitude. When I built my house I took every extra precaution (long story) to avoid having the walls leak or weep as the house ages so having a leaking faucet cause that kind of damage would probably make me lose it for a moment or two. Thank God for insurance!

I'm looking forward to getting back to work too but it's tough this time of year. With all that went on back in May, I still haven't caught up with the yard work and landscaping that needs attention before I get back to the dungeon. Still dealing with my Sister's estate, house contents, etc. Then there's the little curve balls like needing to replace the hot water tank and ironically, a couple of frost free faucets. I just keep telling myself that the time will come and it will likely be when the grass stops growing this fall. Thanks for the encouragement. Maybe I'll revisit my own thread one of these days (lol).


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## MrAngles

Well almost 6 months later it's time to get back to work. Menards is having their 11% rebate this week so I'm going to pick up all the stuff that I need to build the riser and frame out the bar. I figured I'd post the blueprints again to see if anybody has any more feedback before I go to the store.

















The left side of the bar will have 5" deep shelves built into it.


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## MrAngles

Also, I just got my latest toy yesterday, an Industrologic IR232 unit. For about $100 shipped, it translates IR signals into serial commands, and as a result I now have one-touch soft buttons on my Harmony 900 for the 3D Auto, 3D Native, 3D Side/Side, 3D Top/Bottom, 2.40:1, 1.85:1, and all the sleep modes. I also don't have to worry anymore about the double power button sequence that often fails to turn off the projector. The only command I use that isn't a single button press now is to switch the lamp mode to normal for 3D movies, but at least I can use the function button to make that a little easier. If anyone else is using an infrared remote to control their Panasonic projector I highly recommend it.


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## MrAngles




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## ALMFamily

Welcome back to the build process! Hope all was well with you and the family the last few months.

Good thing you are starting again - with Bama finishing his build, there are not enough builds for me to follow!


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## MrAngles

Thanks, it's great to be back!


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## MrAngles




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## mpednault

That's some pretty nice looking lumber!


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## bamabum

Very nice. Coming together quickly.


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## ALMFamily

mpednault said:


> That's some pretty nice looking lumber!


Agreed - where did you get that? My Menards did not have anything that looked that good!


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## MrAngles

#2 or better at Menards. It's my expert photography that makes it look that good.

To be honest though I picked over the selection really well. The entire stock of 2x12x8s ended up in the aisle, but the one I used for the sides is more bowed than I'd like, and the one I used for the front had to be replaced completely because it ended up almost shaped like a U after being in my basement for a couple days. The 10 and 12 footers were better, but still at least half of them had giant cracks going through them.


----------



## MrAngles

Here's my shopping list for the riser, some people find this stuff interesting:
No code has to be inserted here.
Also I ended up getting a gift card during the 11% rebate deal because I wasn't sure if I would end up getting the stuff before the sale ended. Then I did buy the stuff during the sale, using the gift card. Both purchases came with a rebate receipt, so I ended up sending out for about $70 in rebates after everything.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Here's my shopping list for the riser, some people find this stuff interesting:
> No code has to be inserted here.
> Also I ended up getting a gift card during the 11% rebate deal because I wasn't sure if I would end up getting the stuff before the sale ended. Then I did buy the stuff during the sale, using the gift card. Both purchases came with a rebate receipt, so I ended up sending out for about $70 in rebates after everything.


Score! $70 more to spend on building supplies!


----------



## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> #2 or better at Menards. It's my expert photography that makes it look that good.
> 
> To be honest though I picked over the selection really well. The entire stock of 2x12x8s ended up in the aisle, but the one I used for the sides is more bowed than I'd like, and the one I used for the front had to be replaced completely because it ended up almost shaped like a U after being in my basement for a couple days. The 10 and 12 footers were better, but still at least half of them had giant cracks going through them.


I hate having to go through a stack of wood to try and find a good one. I wish they could make 2 piles... One that has all the messed up ones for cheap and another that has the good ones! :T


----------



## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> I hate having to go through a stack of wood to try and find a good one. I wish they could make 2 piles... One that has all the messed up ones for cheap and another that has the good ones! :T


Well I made a few piles of messed up ones for them . I seriously found the only two usable 8 footers in four stacks, and they were on the very bottom of the fourth stack.

Framing the riser is done:









The steps were a little wobbly, so I braced them on both sides and screwed the bracing into the pressure treated bottom plate, now they're really solid.









Now I'm working on where to run the rope light from for the seating riser and the mini bar riser. I'm going to either leave the bottom six inches of the plywood on the inside of the bar open (where your feet go if you're sitting at the bar) or just have the bottom six inches of plywood be a removable panel. Then I'll have a square hole in the back of the riser accessible through the bar that I can reach into, where I'll have an outlet to plug the cord for the rope lights into. There should be enough room in there to maneuver the other end of the cord out through the hole to the lip of the risers as well.


----------



## MrAngles

Here's another thing I'm working on. The left side of the bar is going to have 5" deep inset shelves with power outlets for charging and storing stuff like Playstation controllers and 3D glasses. Problem is that a normal USB charger will not charge Playstation controllers, you need to plug them into the console or computer or a charger specifically made for them, like this one:


So I thought maybe I'd plug a couple of those units in inside the framing of the bar, and use USB keystone inserts to make USB outlets, but I'm not sure there will be enough room for that. The other thing I could maybe do is mount the square charger units to the shelves or the side of the bar, but then I'd need to run the cord through a hole in the side of the bar into an outlet. Anyone else have any ideas for a clean-looking install?


----------



## bamabum

The keystones would be nice. You could hide everything in the back under the bar top.

Also, I think if you run power to the shelves at the top part of one shelf and then mount the power bricks to the ceiling of a shelf it would not be visible if the shelf ceiling is below eye height. 

Or mount to the underside of the bar in the rear and snake through a hole close to the ceiling of the shelves below eye height.


----------



## MrAngles

Keystones would be my first choice, but I'll be working with a 2.5" cavity, and one of these








with a USB cord plugged into the back would probably not fit. I wish there were USB inserts or a complete USB wallplate that had "port savers" like a cord hanging out the back instead of a straight port.

Mounted under the shelves has got to be the best 2nd choice, maybe with the power cord ran through behind the area that the shelf covers.


----------



## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> Keystones would be my first choice, but I'll be working with a 2.5" cavity, and one of these
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> with a USB cord plugged into the back would probably not fit. I wish there were USB inserts or a complete USB wallplate that had "port savers" like a cord hanging out the back instead of a straight port.
> 
> Mounted under the shelves has got to be the best 2nd choice, maybe with the power cord ran through behind the area that the shelf covers.


I use a this ... http://www.storagereview.com/newertech_power2u_acusb_wall_outlet_review


----------



## bamabum

why not use a 90 degree usb in the back of the keystone?

http://dx.com/p/cy-u2-084-90-degree...22705?tc=USD&gclid=CMmW9JDs-7sCFShk7Aody0cAkg









Also I have some shelving where the front trim piece hangs down below the shelf board and the top of the face trim is flush with the shelf. It is a clean look and easily conceals more in the ceiling area of the shelf.


----------



## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> I use a this ... http://www.storagereview.com/newertech_power2u_acusb_wall_outlet_review


THAT was actually my first first choice, until I remembered that those won't charge the PS3 controllers. For some reason they require a data type connection.


----------



## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> why not use a 90 degree usb in the back of the keystone?
> 
> http://dx.com/p/cy-u2-084-90-degree...22705?tc=USD&gclid=CMmW9JDs-7sCFShk7Aody0cAkg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also I have some shelving where the front trim piece hangs down below the shelf board and the top of the face trim is flush with the shelf. It is a clean look and easily conceals more in the ceiling area of the shelf.


I had trouble finding one of those, that would be perfect. That's a great price too with free shipping, I'd better order some right now. Next I need to figure out the best way to paint the keystone inserts black.


----------



## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> THAT was actually my first first choice, until I remembered that those won't charge the PS3 controllers. For some reason they require a data type connection.


You could always get one of the outlets and then plug in this... http://www.amazon.com/PS3-Quad-Dock-Playstation-3/dp/B001FWK340/ref=zg__724064011_3 . I use a charger similar to this and it is plugged into my USB hub and it works fine.


----------



## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> You could always get one of the outlets and then plug in this... http://www.amazon.com/PS3-Quad-Dock-Playstation-3/dp/B001FWK340/ref=zg__724064011_3 . I use a charger similar to this and it is plugged into my USB hub and it works fine.


Problem with those is that the shelves are only 5" deep, not big enough to hold controllers sideways.


----------



## MrAngles

I started to put together the raised section of floor behind the bar, and wired up the bar and riser.


































I put power outlets inside the rear of the riser on each side of the bar, with a path to run the power wire for rope light out through holes in the rear of the riser right under the lip of the riser, and the lip of the raised floor section. The outlets are reachable directly through the bottom section of the bar, which will have removable plywood access panels.
















The remaining problem for the rope light is whether to somehow get my hands on two 4-foot lengths of rope light, one for each side of the raised floor section, or to run one 14-foot length of rope back one side, along the back wall, and back up the other side of the raised floor section. I'd prefer option one, but the shortest length I can find is 6 feet. There's room inside the riser for excess rope light, but I don't think it's safe to do that.


----------



## MrAngles

Oh also, the inspectors advised me that steps have to be a minimum of three feet wide and must have a minimum of three foot "landing" at the bottom, neither of which do I have. I'm going to have to add a three foot step to the front of the riser and keep the couch three feet away from the step. 

Now if the new step accidentally gets lost at some point after the final inspection...


----------



## ALMFamily

What about doing led string lighting? You can get the kind that you can cut off every 3" or so, and it also has an adhesive backing. I used them under the lip of my riser as well as in my AV closet and they work really well.


----------



## MrAngles

The idea was to have all the rope light on the same dimmer as the sconces so they are pretty low during the movies. LEDs aren't dimmable, right? 

I haven't actually tried either regular rope light or LEDs in the dark with a movie on though, so maybe I'll want them at full power anyway. What do people normally do with lighting under the riser lip, leave it on all the time, or put it on a switch?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> The idea was to have all the rope light on the same dimmer as the sconces so they are pretty low during the movies. LEDs aren't dimmable, right?
> 
> I haven't actually tried either regular rope light or LEDs in the dark with a movie on though, so maybe I'll want them at full power anyway. What do people normally do with lighting under the riser lip, leave it on all the time, or put it on a switch?


They can be, but it gets pretty expensive.

I have seen it done both ways. For me personally, I have mine set up as a zone on my Lutron unit. Now, I have it set up to only come on when the movie is paused - or all the lights are on.


----------



## Owen Bartley

MrAngles, if you get the right LEDs they will be dimmable, it's just a little more work to plan and coordinate. I had been looking for a good, bright, reliable source for LED strips to go under my kitchen cabinets. I came across Flexfire LEDs via one of their YouTube videos (I think the one on how to hard wire with a dimmer actually) and was impressed with what they offered and their clear explanations. Also free shipping to Canada! 

I ordered a reel and one of their power supplies, now I just have to pick up a Luton dimmer from the list of compatible ones they provide, and have an electrician buddy install. 

They have several different lines of LEDs for different brightness, and they offer all of them in warm, natural, or cool white. Also a big plus, in my mind. 

I looked for a long time, and they were the most impressive that I found. Sorry I don't have a finished result for you yet!


----------



## MrAngles

Yeah that's pretty much what I had in mind. I figured I wouldn't want them on at full brightness during a movie, but when I pause and turn the sconces up I'd want the rope turned up too. I don't want them all the way off during a movie though, mostly for safety in the dark so no one trips on the raised section of floor behind the bar. 

What happens to non-dimmable LEDs when you put them on a dimmer? They'll be tucked under the lip of the raised floor, which will be behind the riser anyway, so maybe it wouldn't be a big deal to have them on at full brightness all the time.


----------



## MrAngles

Flexfire is a bit more money than I was hoping to spend just for a few feet. Menard has 6-foot lengths of tape light for $20 each, which is more my speed, if it works.


----------



## Owen Bartley

Yeah, they might work just fine. They might not dim, or they might flicker if they aren't rated for dimming not you never know. Leds can be funny.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using HT Shack


----------



## MrAngles

So I picked up a couple of these, they are actually "strip lights," kind of a rope light that only shines out of one side. They don't get hot at all, so I'm hoping they are safe to have the extra two feet stored inside the riser. They do work on a dimmer, but because they are such low voltage they don't dim much until you get down to the dimmest settings.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> So I picked up a couple of these, they are actually "strip lights," kind of a rope light that only shines out of one side. They don't get hot at all, so I'm hoping they are safe to have the extra two feet stored inside the riser. They do work on a dimmer, but because they are such low voltage they don't dim much until you get down to the dimmest settings.


Think those should work fine - I checked those same ones out, but I needed more length so they would not work for me...


----------



## MrAngles

Before I throw the insulation in and seal up the riser, I've seen this a few places







where people put extra bracing in the middle of the riser, what is that for? Should I add some of that to mine?


----------



## bamabum

The bracing can help a few ways IF you need it.

If your plywood decking does not end on all sides over a joist its nice and good to have a cross joist to support the edges.
Extra support for long runs of 2x12
Added areas to screw the decking to reduce warp. squeaking, and bowing. If you have thin decking it could bow as large heavy furniture weight on feet will likely land between joists. Reducing the surface area below unsupported helps this. 
Reduced booming noise walking on the deck as the volume in the under cavity is cut in half.

Most of this is prevented by thick decking, many screws, and insulation and carpet pad.

Use screws on your decking as well instead of nails.


----------



## MrAngles

bamabum said:


> The bracing can help a few ways IF you need it.
> 
> If your plywood decking does not end on all sides over a joist its nice and good to have a cross joist to support the edges.
> Extra support for long runs of 2x12
> Added areas to screw the decking to reduce warp. squeaking, and bowing. If you have thin decking it could bow as large heavy furniture weight on feet will likely land between joists. Reducing the surface area below unsupported helps this.
> Reduced booming noise walking on the deck as the volume in the under cavity is cut in half.
> 
> Most of this is prevented by thick decking, many screws, and insulation and carpet pad.
> 
> Use screws on your decking as well instead of nails.


That makes sense. Well I'm doing a layer of 7/16" OSB and a layer of 5/8" OSB, oriented in perpendicular directions from each other. Maybe should put some extra bracing where the two pieces of 7/16" meet, under where the chairs will go?


----------



## bamabum

You will be fine. Just screw all over. 

Bracing under chair weight and where the edges of decking meet is always good.

Its just a little wood and time.


----------



## bamabum

Also it should be noted some have front ported stages for bass control. The bracing separates the space to be the correct volume they are trying to use.


----------



## MrAngles

Great, thank you. I already have extra 2x12 material that was too warped to use for the front of the riser, so I think I'll cut it up and put it to work.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Great, thank you. I already have extra 2x12 material that was too warped to use for the front of the riser, so I think I'll cut it up and put it to work.


Good call - as long as you have it to spare, might as well put it to use.


----------



## MrAngles

I added the extra bracing and put in the insulation.


























The OSB for the top of the riser is sitting in the garage, if I get any spare time this week I'll be cutting it to size and hauling it down.


----------



## ALMFamily

Looking good!

Are you putting outlets in the riser at all for motorized chairs?


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Looking good!
> 
> Are you putting outlets in the riser at all for motorized chairs?


I'm putting a total of 14 outlets in the bar.
-Three of them will be a few inches off the floor of the riser for the recliners
-Three will be just under the top of the bar directly behind the recliners so people can plug in their phones etc.
-Four will be just below the top of the bar on the inside of the bar directly above a shelf so I can plug in things through a desktop grommet like this such as the charger for my remote so I can leave it on the counter without the wire just hanging out.
-Three will be in the side shelving unit for charging portable devices.
-One will be... somewhere to plug in the PS3 controller chargers so the cords for those can be hidden and routed through to the shelving unit.

I got the OSB for the top of the riser downstairs last night, here's a pic of the unfinished section of the basement for fun:








Don't be jealous of my A/V equipment rack.


----------



## ALMFamily

Lol - outlets are definitely covered!

Oh, how I remember my basement looking like that - just walking around was a chore. And, the amount of sawdust in my garage was quite astounding - I ended up using my leaf blower a few times just to blow the stuff off everything and out the door!


----------



## NBPk402

Have you thought about installing USB outlets for the phones? I installed these in one of our rooms and I will be installing these for the HT too.


----------



## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> Have you thought about installing USB outlets for the phones? I installed these in one of our rooms and I will be installing these for the HT too.


I have thought about that quite a bit, but if someone's going to bring their charger cord down there with them anyway, they may as well bring the actual charger too.

I would love a couple of those for my kitchen counter where I have chargers plugged in pretty much at all times, but down there with the outlets behind the seating I don't plan to leave cords hanging out, so I may as well plug in a cheap charger with the appropriate wattage rating for whatever I'm charging.


----------



## MrAngles

I have both layers of OSB cut to fit the top of my riser. How does one generally get the two layers to line up with each other on the sides (other than making perfectly straight cuts, which just isn't going to happen)? I'm thinking about just taking a sander to the edges to even everything out maybe?


----------



## bamabum

I assume you are talking about the overhang at the edges around the top of the riser?

the sander might take a few days if you have to go through much and will fur the edges.

Lay one OSB layer down and secure with screws. Then flush route the edges. It goes very fast and leaves a great edge.

Then repeat with the next layer.






you can find the bit at local big box for ~$15. Get a bit that is slightly larger than the wood depth. you can always adjust the depth on router so that the roller is perfect on the under wood edge.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Diablo-3-8-in-x-1-2-in-Carbide-Flush-Trimming-Router-Bit-DR42102/100660652

This is also how many build OSB columns with a perfect edge. I used this method on my columns, riser and stage.

Just go nice and slow and ensure the router plate is always flat on the surface. Let the bit do the work, don't apply to much pressure. OSB is tough stuff so be patient. Also tighten that router bit very good or you will have a missile in the room. 

It will take 10 min max to do each layer and look professional.


----------



## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> I have both layers of OSB cut to fit the top of my riser. How does one generally get the two layers to line up with each other on the sides (other than making perfectly straight cuts, which just isn't going to happen)? I'm thinking about just taking a sander to the edges to even everything out maybe?


A router with a flush cut bit? Too late Bamabum beat me to it.


----------



## bamabum

I was also assuming you will have the stage top flush edged with the sides and no overhang. If you are using an overhang, secure the boards together first and flush cut the top one to the bottom and then flip over and repeat.

for flush edges, you might have a little area to sand in the corner of the steps. the router will not get into there because of the guide plate.


----------



## MrAngles

I've got a 2" overhang. I guess using a flush trim bit assumes that the top layer is the one that needs to be trimmed, and that the bottom layer has a reasonably straight edge? I think that's the case on most of the edges, and I could use a sander on the others. Also, what about rounding the edges to maybe make it easier on the carpet going over the riser lip?


----------



## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> I've got a 2" overhang. I guess using a flush trim bit assumes that the top layer is the one that needs to be trimmed, and that the bottom layer has a reasonably straight edge? I think that's the case on most of the edges, and I could use a sander on the others. Also, what about rounding the edges to maybe make it easier on the carpet going over the riser lip?


Yes. If you round the edges with a router I think it might look a little better with carpet than without... When in doubt take a scrap piece of wood and carpet and see which you like better. The hardest part to make it look right is going to be the corners IMO. :T


----------



## bamabum

With a 2 in overhang you can probably flush route from both sides since the guard will probably be far enough away from the edge wall. With carpet laying over I can imagine anything under an 1/8 inch will be noticeable.

taking the edge off with a 1/4 round over bit would look a little better and will help the carpet from not exposing the backing on a hard 90 degree edge. This is assuming you are gluing the carpet. If you use thick padding it should naturally create a curved edge. These are great questions for your installer or is this you?


----------



## MrAngles

Yeahhhhh I don't think I'll be doing the carpet myself, ALM told me about the place he used that has free installation and I decided to go that route. I like the look and feel of having lots of padding around the lip of the riser, so I don't know if seeing the backing will be much of a problem, but I figured rounding the edge would help with wear and tear there.


----------



## MrAngles

I should maybe mention that I don't own a router. What specs/features should one look for when shopping for one?


----------



## NBPk402

I use a Porter Cable plunge router and it works fine for me... Now I also have a Ryobi that I use when I need to work in tight areas as the base is quite a bit smaller.


----------



## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> I use a Porter Cable plunge router and it works fine for me... Now I also have a Ryobi that I use when I need to work in tight areas as the base is quite a bit smaller.


What are the benefits of a plunge router vs a fixed base router?


----------



## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> What are the benefits of a plunge router vs a fixed base router?


With a plunge router you can take a plunge router bit and plunge right into the wood without a hole to start with... It is also easier/quicker to set your depth of cut.

This will explain it better than I can.


----------



## ALMFamily

You could also get a palm router - I picked one up at Menards for less than $100 just this past week.


----------



## NBPk402

ALMFamily said:


> You could also get a palm router - I picked one up at Menards for less than $100 just this past week.


After searching to see what that was... I think my Ryobi is a palm router.:T


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> You could also get a palm router - I picked one up at Menards for less than $100 just this past week.


Which one did you get? I almost got this plunge router last time they did the bag sale but I was worried about the quality.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Which one did you get? I almost got this plunge router last time they did the bag sale but I was worried about the quality.


This is the one I got:

http://www.menards.com/main/tools-h.../bosch-colt-palm-router/p-1629732-c-10087.htm

I picked up a fixed and plunge router at Direct Tools - not sure if you have those by you, but you can really get some amazing deals on tools there. Pretty sure I spent less than $100 for both.


----------



## duder1982

I have a 1/4" 1 1/2 hp ryobi router, it works great. But with thicker heavier material I need to make several cuts. Routers are those one tools that you all most need 2-3 different ones if you get into some serious wood working. One fixed based for the router table, one plunge router, one palm router. Now theres some coming out that are like palm routers but all so plunge routers but they get a little pricey. 

Like this

http://www.lowes.com/pd_473808-70-D...L=?Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&facetInfo=

My next router is going to be a 2.25 hp 1/2" collet.


----------



## MrAngles

I don't see myself using a router that much, I don't do any woodworking at all. If I had to pick one for general use, what would you recommend? The one I linked above is 1-3/4 HP, which on paper sounds great, but I'm assuming there must be build quality compromises that I have to consider at that price?


----------



## duder1982

If you probably only going to use it for this project you will be fine. I have had some friends buy Harbor Freight ones that worked fine for what you are doing.


----------



## MrAngles

duder1982 said:


> If you probably only going to use it for this project you will be fine. I have had some friends buy Harbor Freight ones that worked fine for what you are doing.


I figure it will be nice to have a router on hand for odd jobs, but I don't plan on carving my own baseboard trim or anything like that.


----------



## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> I figure it will be nice to have a router on hand for odd jobs, but I don't plan on carving my own baseboard trim or anything like that.


You might after you get a router. :T


----------



## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> You might after you get a router. :T


Yep, therein lies the problem! Well hopefully this cheapo one will be good enough for me to do odd jobs with.


----------



## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> Yep, therein lies the problem! Well hopefully this cheapo one will be good enough for me to do odd jobs with.


The Ryobi palm router I bought was an inexpensive one and i have had it for over 10 years. :T


----------



## MrAngles




----------



## ALMFamily

Looking good! Give it the knuckle rap test yet?!


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Looking good! Give it the knuckle rap test yet?!


I rapped it with my knuckles and had my kids jump around on it. I'm not sure what I'm listening for though, it sounds a lot more hollow to me than I expected, given two layers of R-19 fiberglass in all the cavities.


----------



## ALMFamily

I realize I am a little late with this, but did you by chance seal the inside with silicone or acoustic sealant between the riser and the floor?

I am assuming you did not compress the insulation when you put it in, correct?


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I realize I am a little late with this, but did you by chance seal the inside with silicone or acoustic sealant between the riser and the floor?
> 
> I am assuming you did not compress the insulation when you put it in, correct?


I did not. I can still caulk the outside of the riser to the floor though if necessary. I'm not sure if what I'm hearing is actually a "hollow" sound though, or just the sound of the OSB itself. The insulation is only compressed as much as it took to put two layers of 6-1/2" insulation in 11-1/2" of space.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> I did not. I can still caulk the outside of the riser to the floor though if necessary. I'm not sure if what I'm hearing is actually a "hollow" sound though, or just the sound of the OSB itself.


If you have the caulk to spare, I would give it a go. If nothing else, it gave me the peace of mind knowing I did everything possible to control any potential resonant issues.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> If you have the caulk to spare, I would give it a go. If nothing else, it gave me the peace of mind knowing I did everything possible to control any potential resonant issues.


I was kind of considering caulking the riser up anyway to keep water from getting under it in the case of a flood. I'd rather not have to take this thing apart again any time soon...


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> I was kind of considering caulking the riser up anyway to keep water from getting under it in the case of a flood. I'd rather not have to take this thing apart again any time soon...


LOL - amen to that!


----------



## bamabum

As long as you don't invite monkeys over the knuckle test sound will be fine. 

You are adding padding correct?

Go with the plush foam it is heavenly : ) With carpet and good padding you can jump on the riser and not interrupt a movie. The padding with also dampen sound dramatically. 

Plus you room is relatively empty of other fabrics and soft surfaces to help quite any noises so everything will sound loud in you empty box room. 

What size is the riser?


----------



## MrAngles

We're definitely going with thick padding, and plush carpet as well. My wife wants it to be comfortable to sleep on if necessary! The riser is 6'2"x8'11" including the 2" lip on all sides. 

Oh I thought of something else in case anyone is reading this who hasn't built their riser yet. It saves time and effort if you screw down the top of the steps before doing the top of the main platform. Screwing 3" screws in with a ratchet screwdriver without pilot holes because the lip is in the way of a drill is not fun.


----------



## bamabum

I have left over padding that will cover your needs for free but the shipping might be to high to justify. I checked a quote at UPS online and it was high.

Choose the best padding possible. You sq is small. The best padding possible shouldn't be more than $50-100.

The foam padding instead of recycled material is the way to go. It is so soft and extremely quiet. I wish I had used throughout the house.

You can see an example from the company I used carpet pad triple touch This was around $0.70 /sqft.

What color carpet or style are you using out of curiosity?


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## MrAngles

I'll be doing the entire floor at once, not just the riser, and this will be in a while, because I'm out of money and I'll need to finish the bar first, but the plan is to get something that matches the style of carpet in the rest of the house, but darker. It's a mixture of brownish colors that really hides dirt and stains well, and I figured there'd be a greyish/blackish or bluish version that I could use. 

Isn't there a carpet pad that is particularly moisture resistant? I figured that would be something to keep in mind.


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## MrAngles

Here it is with a carpet remnant installed using drywall screws. No one has ever accused me of being fancy. Also I cut a practice OSB bar top and put it on. I'm glad I did a practice one, it's going to be difficult for me to position the cutout for the support pole perfectly.


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## ALMFamily

Good call on making yourself a template for the bar top - no sense taking the chance with the real thing when you have scrap laying around.


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## duder1982

ALMFamily said:


> Good call on making yourself a template for the bar top - no sense taking the chance with the real thing when you have scrap laying around.


Dido


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## MrAngles

I got the seats in the room and it's awesome! Unfortunately one of the chairs' electrical system won't work, so I have to have a guy come out in a few weeks.


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## ALMFamily

Looks great! Slept in them yet?


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> Looks great! Slept in them yet?


Not yet, that's what the couch is for!


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## duder1982

Now you'll never get anything done.


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## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> Not yet, that's what the couch is for!


I am sure you will fall asleep in them too!


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## Horrorfan33

Those are the seats I have dreaming of 
They look fantastic and I bet they are super comfy!!


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## MrAngles

They're very comfortable. Actually I watched Elysium with the wife last night, and after sitting in one of the chairs just to try it out, she decided to sit in the back row for the whole movie, which I was not expecting at all.

I have to say also, with the height of the riser putting my eye level just below the center of the screen, I prefer the back row in general. Being higher up gives a very cool feeling like sitting in a commercial theater. I'm very happy with the choice of doing two rows, and having both a couch and a recliner option is perfect.


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## bamabum

very nice!!


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## MrAngles

I think I should stop putting off installing the door, it's one of the first things I bought, after all. I need to take fresher measurements to be sure, but my finished wall should be 10.5 inches thick. I have an exterior doorjamb that I'll install with the door opening to outside of the theater, and I have some mdf to add to fit to the rest of the full width of the doorframe.

I don't have drywall on the outside of the theater yet, so should I just screw on two layers of scrap in a few spots next to the doorframe really quick to see where the jamb will need to be to be flush?


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## MrAngles

Okay I just took measurements. The double drywall w/ green glue is 1-3/8", the first stud wall is 3-1/2", the cavity is 2-1/8", the second stud wall is 3-1/2", and the double drywall w/green glue on the outside will be 1-3/8", for a grand total of 11-7/8" thick.


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## NBPk402

What doors are you using?


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## MrAngles

A 36" wide 1-3/4" solid core door, and an exterior doorjamb kit.


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## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> A 36" wide 1-3/4" solid core door, and an exterior doorjamb kit.


Was this a Lowes or HD door? I need to get 3 doors this coming week.


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## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> Was this a Lowes or HD door? I need to get 3 doors this coming week.


Home Depot, I think the door was around $60


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## MrAngles

Here you go http://m.homedepot.com/p/Steves-Son...ush-Interior-Door-Slab-Q68FHFCNAC99/100086151Mine is actually a Jeld-Wen door, but the Home Depot sku number is the same.


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## NBPk402

Thanks, I will be getting some this week.


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## MrAngles

I got the doorjamb in. I need to shim it some more to get it perfectly straight, but other than that it seems good.
















And there's one of the reasons I need a door. 

Here's a side view of the anatomy of the wall


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## duder1982

I hate hanging doors, as easy as it sounds I have a tough time with it. Looks good though.


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## NBPk402

We will be hanging a door this next weekend... I dread it too.


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## MrAngles

This is my first one ever. I won't be putting the drywall up on the outside for a while, so I figure I can cut it out and redo it if it's bad. What I'm really not looking forward to though is somehow trimming 2" off of the height of this ridiculous solid core door.


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## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> This is my first one ever. I won't be putting the drywall up on the outside for a while, so I figure I can cut it out and redo it if it's bad. What I'm really not looking forward to though is somehow trimming 2" off of the height of this ridiculous solid core door.


Why do you have to trim 2" off of the height?


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## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> Why do you have to trim 2" off of the height?


The doorway is directly under a HVAC trunk line, so it's a little short


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## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> The doorway is directly under a HVAC trunk line, so it's a little short


Oh, I guess we lucked out there... We are raising the header over the door up to the ceiling and running the HVAC in a soffit in that area. :T


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## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> Oh, I guess we lucked out there... We are raising the header over the door up to the ceiling and running the HVAC in a soffit in that area. :T


Mine are in soffits. Unfortunately these two soffit run directly over both sides of the door to the theater room. This is the best shot I can find of it. 








Even cutting a couple inches off I'm going end up having only an inch between the top of the door and the bottom of the soffit.


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## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> Mine are in soffits. Unfortunately these two soffit run directly over both sides of the door to the theater room. This is the best shot I can find of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even cutting a couple inches off I'm going end up having only an inch between the top of the door and the bottom of the soffit.


The picture is deceiving as it looks like you have several inches before you would be at the soffit level.

Did you look into getting a different shape duct... Like maybe rectangular?


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## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> The picture is deceiving as it looks like you have several inches before you would be at the soffit level.
> 
> Did you look into getting a different shape duct... Like maybe rectangular?


There are about three inches there from the top of the doorframe to the duct, but the finished drop-ceiling soffit (this is outside of the theater) will of course be lower than the duct itself. The duct is rectangular, I think it's 8x14" if I recall correctly.


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## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> There are about three inches there from the top of the doorframe to the duct, but the finished drop-ceiling soffit (this is outside of the theater) will of course be lower than the duct itself. The duct is rectangular, I think it's 8x14" if I recall correctly.


:T


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## duder1982

I had to cut 3 doors down at my old house, since when the builders built the house. They skipped a block on the foundation making it much shorter were a normal door would fit. 

Quick question, I notice pink board up, was that put up before or in between the studding. If before, are you planning on putting any more insulation up before you drywall.


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## MrAngles

The pink board is 2" extruded foam. It's glued to the concrete with pl-300 and held into place with 2x3 furring strips on the screen wall (to allow extra room for wiring) and 1x3 furring strips on the side wall, anchored in place using tapcons. This was mostly because I'm paranoid about moisture issues, and also because of that I didn't put any fiberglass in the exterior wall framing whatsoever.

It's a good thing too, because if I had fiberglass in my screen wall when my exterior faucet burst, I would have had to rip the entire screen wall out and redo it. 

The 2" of foam seems pretty effective at keeping the basement insulated.


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## MrAngles

duder1982 said:


> I had to cut 3 doors down at my old house, since when the builders built the house. They skipped a block on the foundation making it much shorter were a normal door would fit.


Did you cut any solid core doors by any chance? I'm pretty sure there's a limit to how much you can cut off of the top or bottom of the door due to the filling not actually being that "solid."


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## duder1982

I was thinking of using it instead of fiber glass, as I to am worried about moisture.


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## duder1982

MrAngles said:


> Did you cut any solid core doors by any chance? I'm pretty sure there's a limit to how much you can cut off of the top or bottom of the door due to the filling not actually being that "solid."


No I didn't 2 of them were hollow core, when I did the bottoms fell out. I had to re glue them back in. One was a metal exterior door, that was foam filled. Again the same the bottom stock fell out and I had to re glue it in. I would think a solid door is solid it should be just like cutting stock.


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## MrAngles

duder1982 said:


> I would think a solid door is solid it should be just like cutting stock.


Unfortunately I think most "solid core" doors, and almost certainly this $64 one are a solid wood frame around a fill of some kind of compressed wood fibers, that will actually fall out if you cut more than an inch or so off of the edges. I think the thing to do is to trim the edge, then dig an inch of fibers out and replace the solid wood edge band somehow.


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## MrAngles

duder1982 said:


> I was thinking of using it instead of fiber glass, as I to am worried about moisture.


I spent a lot of time researching basement insulation and moisture issues. A lot of the discussion about it was on page 7 of my thread. Ultimately the key is to allow moisture to naturally flow in and out of the concrete without touching anything that it can damage. For me that came down to these points:
-Rigid foam insulation on the walls, seams covered with sheathing tape, and top and bottom edges sealed with spray foam. Keeps seepage through the concrete contained behind the foam until it can seep back out on it's own, and keeps the warm interior of the walls from touching the cold concrete, preventing condensation.
-Dri-core subfloor on the floors, allowing space for moisture and airflow to allow any water that comes up through the concrete to dry naturally or seep back down through the concrete on it's own.
-Pressure treated 2x4s on the floor in all wall construction with sill sealer between it and the concrete floor and between it and any wood attached to it, to prevent wicking of moisture through the pressure treated wood and up into non-pressure treated wood.

I ended up adding furring strips on top of the rigid foam with sill sealer in between instead of traditional wall framing because it saved me money and space. It also is a very easy way to keep the wall construction mechanically separated from the ceiling construction for sound isolation.


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## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> I am sure you will fall asleep in them too!


Well my wife fell asleep in one of the recliners while watching Silent Hill Revelations in 3D on Saturday night. They are very comfortable.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> Did you cut any solid core doors by any chance? I'm pretty sure there's a limit to how much you can cut off of the top or bottom of the door due to the filling not actually being that "solid."


I did - I had to cut some off the bottom of two solid core doors due to the height of my ceiling in the "lobby". I cut about 2 1/4" off the bottom - no issue at all. They were the standard Menards solid core doors.


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I did - I had to cut some off the bottom of two solid core doors due to the height of my ceiling in the "lobby". I cut about 2 1/4" off the bottom - no issue at all. They were the standard Menards solid core doors.


Great, thank you!


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## MrAngles

Here are some updated pics of the bar. I got some 1/2" red oak plywood and started covering the frame, and put in all 14 outlets and the dimmer for the can lights over the bar. I also put in four low voltage brackets in the shelving area for USB power, one low voltage bracket under the bar counter area for running A/V to the equipment rack, and a low voltage bracket in front of the bar behind the recliners for plugging in a USB keyboard and mouse for PC gaming.




























When looking for black keystone plates/inserts I found this website http://www.infinitecables.com, they have all the inserts I need as well as 1.5 foot and 3 foot power cables, which I've had trouble finding elsewhere.


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## mpednault

On page 9 of my build thread (see sig) I posted a picture of the inside of a JeldWen solid core door. It is glued shavings of wood. It held together when I cut the door but I'll be painting it to create a seal and alleviate moisture concerns. Nice work on the bar!


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## MrAngles

I've been rethinking the floorplan for outside of the theater. This was my original plan:








I wanted to have kind of "foyer" area with a freestanding A/V component rack and a bunch of media storage out in the open. I also wanted to have an office area that also had a spare bed in it, although the office in this plan was pretty small to include a bed.

Now with my kids getting older, having friends over and using the theater when I'm not home, I'm more included to have the A/V rack and media storage hidden away in the office, so I've redone the floorplan:








Having the office door across from the theater door keeps it out of the way of the main office area, allowing room for a full bed or maybe even a queen, and up to two corner desks, or dressers and whatnot if someone were to use it as an actual bedroom, since there's now a bedroom style closet in the room. The front of the A/V rack is accessible from the office closet, and the back and one side are accessible from the unfinished area. Having the A/V rack access uses up a couple feet of closet space, but it's 8 feet wide so that should be okay. If new owners wanted to use the room as a dedicated bedroom instead of an office, they could easily put their components the opposite direction and put a panel up to close up the back wall of the closet in the bedroom. I think the hallway is wide enough to where I can get stuff in and out of the office and theater.

Any feedback on the new floorplan? Anything I'm missing here?


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## NBPk402

If you are rethinking the area... Why not just extend the HT, and move the office to part of the storage area? If you did it this way you could have your DVD storage, and amp rack in the HT hidden behind you. This would also allow you to go with a AT screen, and hide all your speakers.:T:T


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## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> If you are rethinking the area... Why not just extend the HT, and move the office to part of the storage area? If you did it this way you could have your DVD storage, and amp rack in the HT hidden behind you. This would also allow you to go with a AT screen, and hide all your speakers.:T:T


Haha, well the HT room is all done, structurally speaking, so aside from other physical design limitations for the room, I'm not going to redo all the framing, soundproofing, HVAC, in that back wall at this point. Anyway, I prefer to not have my equipment and media in the theater room, and if the office is going to be able to double as an official bedroom, it needs to be in the part of the basement where the egress window is.


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## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> Haha, well the HT room is all done, structurally speaking, so aside from other physical design limitations for the room, I'm not going to redo all the framing, soundproofing, HVAC, in that back wall at this point. Anyway, I prefer to not have my equipment and media in the theater room, and if the office is going to be able to double as an official bedroom, it needs to be in the part of the basement where the egress window is.


I was thinking the office was for double duty as a bedroom for when you are in trouble with the wife...hence expand the HT and sleep in a recliner  :T:T


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## MrAngles

ellisr63 said:


> I was thinking the office was for double duty as a bedroom for when you are in trouble with the wife...hence expand the HT and sleep in a recliner  :T:T


Nope, I already sleep on the couch in the theater when <ahem> necessary, so I've got that covered. The bed in the office is more for guests, or for sleeping in the basement during tornado warnings. We had to load the whole family into the theater room once and getting the kids to settle down and sleep when they're in the same room as us was not easy...


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## NBPk402

MrAngles said:


> Nope, I already sleep on the couch in the theater when <ahem> necessary, so I've got that covered. The bed in the office is more for guests, or for sleeping in the basement during tornado warnings. We had to load the whole family into the theater room once and getting the kids to settle down and sleep when they're in the same room as us was not easy...


Same here...LOL


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