# Cohesive Sound Stage & Imaging



## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

I am using my HT to temporaily test a 2 channel listening room setup. The result in ok but want to improve imaging & sound stage I get good center fill but speakers are still localized as I can hear audio from both speakers. How do I fix this? 

My setup is as follows:

speakers are Golden ear Triton Ones.

Speakers are 7 ft from front wall. Unable to move closer to front wall as there is HT front stage in place.
Speakers are 3 ft from side walls.
Speakers are 9 ft apart & 9 ft from MLP.

The room is rectangular- 25 ft long x 16 ft wide x 8 ft tall.

Appreciate any assistance.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Some additional info

I have acoustical side wall treatments for 1st reflections
Front wall have been treated.
HT is carpeted.
Rear wall treated


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Also MLP is 38% of room length.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

You did not mention speaker toe in. If speakers are pointed straight at the MLP, try less toe in. If you set the convergence point for the speakers at a point on the back wall straight behind the MLPL, 18 ft away from the "speaker plane," or about 10.2 ft behind the MLP (the "speaker plane" to MLP distance is 7.8 ft), toe in would be about 14 degreres degrees and your "off axis listening angle" would be 16 degrees. See how that sounds. You might even try less toe in that that.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Toe in currently is directly at the MLP. I will try altering the toe in to see if that works. Appreciate the help. 

BTW going to look at BOSCH laser measurement device later today. It will certainly help with the symmetry.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Dwight Angus said:


> Toe in currently is directly at the MLP. I will try altering the toe in to see if that works. Appreciate the help.
> 
> BTW going to look at BOSCH laser measurement device later today. It will certainly help with the symmetry.


Is this the one you are looking at?
https://www.amazon.com/GLM-15-Compa...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B00LGANH8K


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Picked up the Bosch GML 30 as its accurate to 1/16 of an inch. Will try it today.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

There are nice new models like that for pretty cheap. You'll love it.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Used the Bosch glm30 today. Is sure speeds up the measuring process. Much better. I moved the Triton Ones further apart from 9 ft to 9 1/2 ft & further back from the PLP to 9 1/2 ft to retain equilateral triangle. This left me with about 30 inch gap from side wall to rear side of speaker to side wall & 44 inches from speaker center front to side wall allowing for toe in. I don't want to place the speakers any closer to side wall boundry if possible. 

It does sound better with good center fill. Sound stage is deep with vocals sounding crisp & clear. I will try some different toe ins tomorrow. Currently the toe in is on axis aimed at the PLP as suggested by manufacturer.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Nice speaker choice. I see the Triton speaker ads all the time in my Stereophile mag and I find myself staring at it every time I pass by. Its so complex looking and my interest is piqued. I've read much positive opinion...

I have thoughts and opinions - first, adjusting speaker distance from each other, front/back wall, side wall is the a trial and error - try and listen experiment with each two channel or multi setup. Various speaker placement in various sized rooms with added varying levels of room treatments I believe makes a simple answer impossible.

AudioCraver posted a pretty basic starting point of 7' speaker separation awhile back here's the link

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...nnel-speaker-setup-guide-deep-soundstage.html

I like the 7' starting point for speaker separation - even though your using a relatively large speaker, because your so far from the front wall and the back wall is so far away I would think sound pressure levels and sound reinforcement are falling away quickly leaving you with a clear ability to pin-piont the sound direction and failing to reinforce the sound field - sound stage. 

Because the Triton Ones passive sub radiators are on the side I would think side wall placement is not a concern for LFE's but for mid's and hi's I have a sense being so close to a treated side wall is taking the life from your speakers. 

I think if you turn up the volume and you begin to hear a sound-field emerging I would definitely try a narrower separation to begin with. 

This might sound crazy..., but, if you want to actually see what is happening with your sound stage reinforcement or lack of - set up a shallow pan of water to the scale of your room with damped walls and a three walled scaled enclosure for wave propagation you can get a very clear picture of exactly what is occurring with sound wave interaction at the MLP or wherever in the room...
Room coupling with the speaker is not always a neg contribution... I think.

I know... :coocoo: :R

Happy Listening


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Dwight Angus said:


> Used the Bosch glm30 today. Is sure speeds up the measuring process. Much better.


You will never go back to a tape measure.



> ...to retain equilateral triangle...


Perhaps I need to be more direct. FORGET ABOUT THE EQUILATERAL TRIANGLE. I have rarely gotten good SS&I performance with that configuration. The only exception has been with horn-loaded tweeters.



> I will try some different toe ins tomorrow. Currently the toe in is on axis aimed at the PLP as suggested by manufacturer.


FORGET THE MFR'S SUGGESTIONS FOR TOE IN. Their toe-in suggestion is for optimum frequency response and will not give the best SS&I performance. Again, the only exception to this that I have experienced is with horn-loaded tweeters.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Hey Dwight - Looks like you're getting some great advice here. I found (with the Triton 2+) that you set-up in post #9 was nearly ideal (in my room)..but my room isn't nearly as long. Sandy Gross did indicate that he though the Tritons would sound best equidistant from each other (and MLP) with direct facing Toe-in. But, every room is different. I'd play a bit more with toe-in (or out) and see if you can hear a difference.


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## FargateOne (Mar 3, 2015)

AudiocRaver said:


> (...)





> Perhaps I need to be more direct. FORGET ABOUT THE EQUILATERAL TRIANGLE. I have rarely gotten good SS&I performance with that configuration. The only exception has been with horn-loaded tweeters.


One of the best advise I ever had !



> FORGET THE MFR'S SUGGESTIONS FOR TOE IN. Their toe-in suggestion is for optimum frequency response and will not give the best SS&I performance. Again, the only exception to this that I have experienced is with horn-loaded tweeters.


Try this. Begin with the speakers aiming at your MLP and gradually, by 10cm steps, open the angle (less toe-in). Suddenly, the stage will go back, instruments will be more defined, the singer will be behind your front wall even in a small room as mine!


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

AudiocRaver said:


> You will never go back to a tape measure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So in my situation with Horns from 400Hz on up...it is best to aim them at the mlp, correct?


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Because I have an elevated front stage in my HT cannot place speakers closer to front wall, however when moving speakers closer to front wall I noticed an increase in sound pressure. Right now I have a 1 foot gap between speaker & stage edge. I will move the T1's closer to see if I can detect further improvement in sound pressure. I also want to try speakers placed closer together to see what that does.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

AudiocRaver said:


> You will never go back to a tape measure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't not know that. I always thought I had to achieve Equilateral Triangle. Good to know. I will also try off axis toe-in.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Todd Anderson said:


> Hey Dwight - Looks like you're getting some great advice here. I found (with the Triton 2+) that you set-up in post #9 was nearly ideal (in my room)..but my room isn't nearly as long. Sandy Gross did indicate that he though the Tritons would sound best equidistant from each other (and MLP) with direct facing Toe-in. But, every room is different. I'd play a bit more with toe-in (or out) and see if you can hear a difference.



Hey Todd

Yes getting lots of good advice. I was following "setup tips" from Sandy Gross including direct facing Toe-n & equidistant setup but will takes Wayne's advice & try some "off axis" setups & alternative speaker placements. 

I also want to place speakers closer to front wall. My HT has a front stage so my T1's are 7 ft from front wall in front of front stage. I have about a 1 foot gap between rear of speaker & elevated stage front so I will move it closer & see what that does.

Appreciate the assistance


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Had some time yesterday to try different speaker placements & had some success. I moved the T1's further apart 2 feet from side walls. The distance between speakers is 12 feet measured from centre of tweeter. Distance from PLP to tweeter is 9 ft 10 inches. Toe-in is off axis at 30 degrees. I also moved the T1's back further to the edge of the front stage or 6 feet from front wall. I was shocked how much better it sounded. Localization has disappeared with a much larger sound stage. 

I need to do some more listening today & experiment with more toe-ins options.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Dwight Angus said:


> Had some time yesterday to try different speaker placements & had some success. I moved the T1's further apart 2 feet from side walls. The distance between speakers is 12 feet measured from centre of tweeter. Distance from PLP to tweeter is 9 ft 10 inches. Toe-in is off axis at 30 degrees. I also moved the T1's back further to the edge of the front stage or 6 feet from front wall. I was shocked how much better it sounded. Localization has disappeared with a much larger sound stage.
> 
> I need to do some more listening today & experiment with more toe-ins options.


Sounds like what I have heard on numerous occasions... get them out from the front wall with good separation and magic starts to happen in nearly every case. 

Have you measured the response of each speaker from your MLP with REW?

Imaging is going to improve significantly with frequency balanced left and right speakers... if you have the system to do it. I have to move the speakers... measure... run Audyssey... measure... listen. Fifty-eleven or more times before getting it right... right Wayne?


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

ellisr63 said:


> So in my situation with Horns from 400Hz on up...it is best to aim them at the mlp, correct?


Horns are a different animal. Yes, in my experience with horn tweeters, start with aiming directly at the MLP. Distance from horn to MLP is critical, must be precise. But do not be afraid to toe in or out a little from that starting point.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Afraid so.

Although the result will knock your socks off.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> Sounds like what I have heard on numerous occasions... get them out from the front wall with good separation and magic starts to happen in nearly every case.
> 
> Have you measured the response of each speaker from your MLP with REW?
> 
> Imaging is going to improve significantly with frequency balanced left and right speakers... if you have the system to do it. I have to move the speakers... measure... run Audyssey... measure... listen. Fifty-eleven or more times before getting it right... right Wayne?



I am working through technical problem with windows 10 & REW. I am using HDMI cable from Onkyo 5505 preamp to Dell Inspiron N7110 laptop. REW doesn't recognize the Onkyo in audio mixer. Once I resolve this issue I will take some measurements.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Dwight Angus said:


> I am working through technical problem with windows 10 & REW. I am using HDMI cable from Onkyo 5505 preamp to Dell Inspiron N7110 laptop. REW doesn't recognize the Onkyo in audio mixer. Once I resolve this issue I will take some measurements.


HDMI issues... Where have I heard that one before?

Check oiut our HDMI tips n tricks guide. I'll betcha it helps you get it solved.


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