# How Best to Power PSB Imagine Speakers (low impedance)



## TDO (Mar 8, 2011)

For the best audio quality, how would you recommend I power an Imagine B 5.1 setup? (link/specs listed below)
I am currently powering them with my old Yamaha RX-V661 (link/specs listed below)
Do I need to upgrade, and if so, to what? Thanks in advance.

*Imagine B Bookshelf, Imagine C Center, Imagine S Surround* (all identical specs)
*Impedance*
Nominal: _4 Ohms_
Minimum: _4 Ohms_
*Input Power*
Recommended: _20-150 Watts_
Program: _150 Watts_

*Yamaha RX-V661 Specifications:*
RMS Output Power: _(20Hz - 20kHz) 90W x 7_
Total Power: _(20Hz - 20kHz) 630W_


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I really think the answer comes down to are you running out of power? That is, are you experiencing Shutdowns or Distortion when playing back at high volumes?

I am a huge fan of the Speakers you have selected. And if you are interested in a different AVR, what kind of budget would you be comfortable spending?
Cheers,
JJ


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## TDO (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks. 

I am not experiencing any of the problems you are suggesting, and it goes plenty loud for my needs. However, the low impedance of the speakers and the relatively low power output of my receiver make me wonder if I am getting the best sound quality out of the speakers, or if I am missing something. So, it's more a question of better quality than sheer output.

I wouldn't mind spending 1K on a new one, a little more if I must, and under if I can.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Some like the Onkyo TX-NR3007 is available for 849 Dollars with free Shipping from Accessories4less and retailed for 2100 Dollars. It offers a good bit more power and even the option to Bridge the Front Channels while still running 7 Speakers. 

Also it offers Audyssey MultEQ XT Room EQ which is fantastic, Network Functions (Internet Radio, Ethernet Firmware Updates, Streaming Music from your PC), THX Ultra2 Plus Certification and Processing, Reon Video Processing, 8 HDMI Inputs, Audyssey DSX, and so much more.
Here is the link:http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...ltra2-Plus-140w-x-9.2-Network-Receiver/1.html

I purchased the same AVR and could not be happier.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

An Emotiva XPA-5 would make a definite difference. As long as you are satisfied with its processing capabilities the RX-V661 has preamp outputs so you could just hook the XPA-5 up to it and go.


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## TDO (Mar 8, 2011)

jackfish said:


> An Emotiva XPA-5 would make a definite difference. As long as you are satisfied with its processing capabilities the RX-V661 has preamp outputs so you could just hook the XPA-5 up to it and go.


This is something that I have been considering. The only thing is that the V661 is a little dated in some of its features (for instance, only 2 HDMI inputs), so I'm leaning more toward an complete AVR upgrade.


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

If that's the case, see JJ's thread above. For the $$ the 3007 is really hard to beat. Not sure of your budget, but it may be cheap enough that you can get you an external amp down the road if you decide that you really need/want one.


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## TDO (Mar 8, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Some like the Onkyo TX-NR3007 is available for 849 Dollars with free Shipping


Feature packed, 140 watts per channel, and weighing in just over 55 lbs...that thing is a monster! Essentially the same as the 3008, minus some fluff right? Plenty of power for sure, and it specifically states it's 4 ohm capabilities. Sounds like a good fit, and for an amazingly low price considering.

Just to be sure....all channels have the can be set to 4 ohms? Does it list many watts per channel if you get if you are running all channels at 4 ohms?



Jungle Jack said:


> It offers a good bit more power and even the option to Bridge the Front Channels while still running 7 Speakers.


Could you explain this concept a bit more? I am only running 5.1 right now, but I could wire the Imagine S surrounds for 6.1 or 7.1 setup. I can't foresee myself ever needing a 9.2 channel setup, but I guess it doesn't hurt to have the extra capability if needed.


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## TDO (Mar 8, 2011)

Tufelhundin said:


> If that's the case, see JJ's thread above. For the $$ the 3007 is really hard to beat. Not sure of your budget, but it may be cheap enough that you can get you an external amp down the road if you decide that you really need/want one.


I'm reading up on external amps now, as the concept is new to me. Given the power output of the 3007, I doubt I would need anything more, but the reasoning may become more apparent as I read into it more. Thanks.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

I don't see a problem they are fairly small speakers and probably won't push any receiver hard. If you were running an mtm or a 3-way maybe, but not with a standard 0.5 2-way bookshelf. I don't see any reputable receiver struggling with those. 

I suspect they have a really good bracing scheme and crossover topology though. You have some well built speakers from what I can tell.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
While rated at 4 Ohms, the PSB's are relatively AVR friendly. In fact, I am surprised they are rated at 4 Ohms as I have read Bench Tests of many PSB's and none present a super challenging load on the AVR. After reading Stereophile's Review for the larger B6, it would there could be a typo on the Website as while it does dip to 3.6 Ohms, through much of the Frequency Range it is around 6 Ohms. Even better, the Sensitivity is close to 90db's. 

I would be utterly shocked if the Onkyo would not drive the PSB's to preferred levels. Especially if the Yamaha, which has a far less stout Amplifier Section drives them fine. Moreover, it is almost unheard of to need 140 Watts into 5 or 7 Channels and in truth only Amplifiers can output that much power continuously. Some AVR's have come close including the older Onkyo 805/875/905/876/906 and Pioneer's SC-37. However, even with this extra power, it is exceedingly rare where anywhere close to all of it is needed.

Again, unless you have a huge Room or really inefficient Speakers, the output from the 3007 will be plenty and to be Ultra Certified, an AVR must drive 3.2 Ohms Continuously All Channels Driven. 
Cheers,
JJ


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## TDO (Mar 8, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> After reading Stereophile's Review for the larger B6, it would there could be a typo on the Website as while it does dip to 3.6 Ohms, through much of the Frequency Range it is around 6 Ohms. Even better, the Sensitivity is close to 90db's.
> JJ


Speaking of Stereophile reviews, here is the one they did on they Imagine B. Does this alter your opinion at all?

Full Review

Experpt:
_"The B's voltage sensitivity was to specification, at 87dB(B)/2.83V/m, or 1dB below that of the Imagine T. The B's impedance with its port open (fig.1) dipped to 3.3 ohms in the lower midrange, with a combination of 5.1 ohms magnitude and an electrical phase angle of –49° at 115Hz that will stress amplifiers or receivers not rated into 4 ohms. But the B is otherwise a relatively easy speaker to drive. "_



Jungle Jack said:


> Moreover, it is almost unheard of to need 140 Watts into 5 or 7 Channels and in truth only Amplifiers can output that much power continuously. Some AVR's have come close including the older Onkyo 805/875/905/876/906 and Pioneer's SC-37.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Just to clarify, would you rank the Onkyo TX-NR3007 along side the one's listed, or no? Are those models still available? Would they also be worth considering? I noticed they were all 7.1 receivers which makes me wonder if the Onkyo TX-NR3007 is a little overkill for what I need being that it is 9.2?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
As it being a THX Ultra AVR it was tested into 3.2 Ohms Continuously into to all Channels. At 849, I am not sure how many other AVR's will drive a 4 Ohm Load for a great deal cheaper. And again, that is for the larger B6 Floorstander so I would think yours would be easier to drive.

After reading your Link, I guess it is actually more difficult to drive. Again, I think the 3007 would be fine. I am not so sure about cheaper AVR's as the big differentiator between Entry Level and more expensive AVR's is the Amplifier Section and the 3007 retailed for over 2000 Dollars.
Cheers,
JJ


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## TDO (Mar 8, 2011)

JJ,
I've been comparing Onkyo models and was wondering what you thought of the TX-NR808?

It seems pretty comparable to the TX-NR3007, just a tad less power and only 7.2 channel. However, given the fact that I am only running a 5.1 system and that this is $250 cheaper, would this be a better fit or am I missing something?
Thanks


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The 808 has a good bit less strong Amplifier Section so you are missing something by going that way. There is around a 15 Pound Difference between the 2 AVR's. That is why it is THX Select as opposed to THX Ultra2 Certified. Moreover, when not using the 9 Channels gives more headroom for the Channels that are used. Also, you could Bridge the Front Channels. Though it is only recommended for 8 Ohm Speakers, on the whole the Impedance Range is not brutal and is certainly worth experimenting with to see if Bridging the Mains would work.
Cheers,
JJ


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## TDO (Mar 8, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> ...when not using the 9 Channels gives more headroom for the Channels that are used...
> Cheers,
> JJ


Interesting.

Do you think I would be better served sticking with the 3007, or getting into an entry level AVR from a higher end company? ( ie. NAD, Krell, Rotel, Adcom, Carver, etc.) 
Keep in mind, my current Yamaha gets plenty loud for my tastes and the size of the room. I am mainly looking to get the best sound out of these Imagines as possible.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The issue with the Brands you mention is that they are somewhat lacking in the latest Features such as Audyssey. An interesting choice would be Anthem's new AVR's which offer their stellar ARC Room EQ. It is along the lines of Audyssey, but I still prefer Audyssey. However the Amplifiers in the Anthem AVR700 would do an excellent job driving your PSB's.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Jeff Aguilar (Apr 11, 2006)

I was running my PSB Image speakers with an Onkyo 1007. I had the C6 tower speakers and it did not have any trouble running these speakers in 9.2. I ended up using an external amp since I wanted to bi-amp my fronts and I had the amp already. The Onkyo did just fine without the amp. At $849 the 3007 is a fantastic investment. The THX Ultra 2 certification and Aud room correction and dual sub setup is fantastic! The 3007 has a better up converting video chipset than the 1007 I have. I did not consider the 3007 when I purchased because at the time it was above my budget.


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## TDO (Mar 8, 2011)

Jeff Aguilar said:


> I was running my PSB Image speakers with an Onkyo 1007. I had the C6 tower speakers and it did not have any trouble running these speakers in 9.2. I ended up using an external amp since I wanted to bi-amp my fronts and I had the amp already. The Onkyo did just fine without the amp. At $849 the 3007 is a fantastic investment. The THX Ultra 2 certification and Aud room correction and dual sub setup is fantastic! The 3007 has a better up converting video chipset than the 1007 I have. I did not consider the 3007 when I purchased because at the time it was above my budget.


I was looking over the comparison between the two. Besides the chipset you mentioned, an extra HDMI input, and 5 wpc, they seem identical. Not sure if they 1007 is still available or what it is going for, but it seems like a solid option as well.


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

A very solid option indeed and I would have to say it was one of the best bargains out there....but I don't thing they are available any longer. Hence the 3007 is now the steal. I bought my 1007 when they first came out and I don't regret paying what I paid one bit. I chose the 1007 over the 3007 for I knew I would not use the video processing of the avr, for I pass it through and just use my Oppo and I'm very pleased,


The 3007 is an absolute bargain....but if you want better then you would have to jump to the 3008 due to it having XT32. If you are wanting just to have 1.4 then.....the 808 would probably be the best buy.


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## TDO (Mar 8, 2011)

Tufelhundin said:


> The 3007 is an absolute bargain....but if you want better then you would have to jump to the 3008 due to it having XT32. If you are wanting just to have 1.4 then.....the 808 would probably be the best buy.


I am going to get my room measurement gear set up this week. What EQ I need will depend on how bad the room is and what I can and can't correct with proper acoustical treatment.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Tufe nailed it. I have not seen the 1007 available for about 2 Months and the 3007 has dropped almost 200 Dollars from the previous price at Accessories4less.
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

I recommend a cheap AVR with pre-outs and supplementing it with an XPA-3 or something :T


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## TDO (Mar 8, 2011)

GranteedEV said:


> I recommend a cheap AVR with pre-outs and supplementing it with an XPA-3 or something :T


...that, or getting both the Emotiva UMC-1 and Emotiva XPA-5
...or getting a top of the line 'big-box brand' (ie. *Onkyo 3007)
...or getting an entry level 'audiophile' brand (ie. *Anthem MRX, *NAD T755)

All great options, the question is, which will generate the best sound? :scratch:

*these may be horrible examples, but you get my point


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

I would steer clear of the emotiva pre pro until they fid that mess of a bass management.

there's nothing more 'audiophile' about an Anthem or NAD over a Denon or Marantz... Onkyo I can't comment on. Where they may differ is amp quality or video processing or DSP.

High current/High voltage the name of the game with amps. 

I think good separates amps are generally better than even what flagship AVRs have, especially all channels driven. ATI makes some amps which measure nicely.

chances are you could put together 100 combinations of receivers, amps, prepros and get the same results. So my suggestion remains. Perhaps a Denon 4311ci would be a place to look. Add amp if desired.


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## TDO (Mar 8, 2011)

GranteedEV said:


> ...Marantz...ATI...Denon 4311ci


And the list gets longer. 
Great input and suggestions, thanks.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

ATI Amps through dealers are rather expensive. I would only consider them B-Stock from an authorized dealer:

http://classicaudioparts.com/store/ati-factory-authorized-bstock.html


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

GranteedEV said:


> ATI Amps through dealers are rather expensive. I would only consider them B-Stock from an authorized dealer:
> 
> http://classicaudioparts.com/store/ati-factory-authorized-bstock.html


ATI tends to be involved with or own other Amp Company's: Outlaw, Theta, Cinenova, Lexicon?, ect...

I do like the ATI Amps...not a lot of reviews on them however. You can get a B Stock ATI 3005 for the same price of a Cinenova 300x5 but the ATI will have the warranty.:T


Sherwood NC A965 is a very conservative amp, is made for low ohm speakers and comes at a GREAT price on the Gon.....if you can catch it for it sells.


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

Nice Halo just arrived....http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1305560926&/Parasound-A52


Just keep an eye on the Gon, you never know what may come along....


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
That is a nice find. It is actually heavily based off the previous HCA-1205 with mostly upgraded Cosmetics. Regardless, a 1.4 kVA Toroidal Transformer and 100,000uf Capacitance is a good bit more powerful than an Emotiva XPA-5 which has a 1.0 kVA Toroidal Transformer and 60,000uf Capacitance.

All of this being said, if there are any HCA-2205's available, I cannot recommend it enough. It has almost twice as large a Transformer as the A52 and 50,000uf more Filter Capacitance. The 4500 Dollar Halo A51 is heavily based off this Model with again the main differences being Cosmetic and the addition of XLR's. It does have a slightly larger Transformer and 14,000uf more Capacitance than the 2205. 

However, all were Designed by John Curl who is truly a Legend and has Designed everything from the Grateful Dead's "Wall of Sound" era Stage Shows to the first Mark Levinson Pre Amplifier. My 2205 has been utterly faithful and drives Electrostats that drop below 1 Ohm and are not very efficient to boot.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> That is a nice find. It is actually heavily based off the previous HCA-1205 with mostly upgraded Cosmetics. Regardless, a 1.4 kVA Toroidal Transformer and 100,000uf Capacitance is a good bit more powerful than an Emotiva XPA-5 which has a 1.0 kVA Toroidal Transformer and 60,000uf Capacitance.
> 
> All of this being said, *if there are any HCA-2205's available, I cannot recommend it enough. * It has almost twice as large a Transformer as the A52 and 50,000uf more Filter Capacitance. The 4500 Dollar Halo A51 is heavily based off this Model with again the main differences being Cosmetic and the addition of XLR's. It does have a slightly larger Transformer and 14,000uf more Capacitance than the 2205.
> ...




Having read your post in the past concerning this amp I have been keeping an eye open for one. I have seen a couple and they go as fast as they are posted. Crazy. If you do a search on Gon there is only one and it was sold fast.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Indeed. I truly believe the 2205 is one of the greatest used values out there and is something you can own for years and get all of your money or even make money offit. Back then, Parasound had a 10 Year Warranty and the amps have held up beautifully with as you see them selling within days of listing.

And again, it offers 97% of the performance of the 4500 Dollar Halo A51 for between 1000 and 1200 Dollars. Another Amplifier with similar qualities is the Paragon 8008 Series. Especially the bb Model which is a true Dual Mono Design and offers twice the Capacitance of the 8008 ST.

What I love about Aragon is that they were made in America primarily by Subcontractors who built Military and Hospital Grade Electronics. Couple this with a Circuit Design based off Krell Founder Dan D'Agostino's 
initial Paragon 4004 and you have another Amplifier that will sell the day it is listed and can drive any Speaker imaginable.
Cheers,
JJ


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## peterselby7 (Nov 29, 2008)

I second the 2205. Very nice amp. 

And if you would decide to upgrade to separates down the road like a surround pre/pro you would get even higher quality sound and still be in great position with the 2205.


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

Well, well.....looky here:devil:



http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1306415370&/Parasound-HCA-2205a




not sure how long it will last:whistling:


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