# another newbie



## kcsun (Jul 4, 2012)

Hi
I have always suffered with hearing dialogue clearly and have spent lots of money upgrading in the hope of hearing more clearly. My wife and I are now having to resort to subtitles more and more which is annoying considering the equipment we have
Is it the actors not speaking clearly as I do find animated films more easy to listen to. Is it that my wife and I are both in our 50's and our hearing is not what it used to be

Our lounge does NOT lend itself to home cinema as it has vaulted ceilings, hard walls and floor and a leather suite.
See photos here of our lounge

https://kenclare.smugmug.com/Home-Improvements/Home-Theatre-Lounge/n-NVdHZQ/i-55gqnXB

I have invested in the UMIK-1 mike and have loaded the REW software on my Mac

After a couple of false starts I have also got readings of all my speakers (I did not understand soundflower and HDMI channel choice!!). 

I do not understand what the graphs actually mean though and perhaps one of you could look at them for me and decide if I have any glaring issues that may affect dialogue - or anything else for that matter

REW file attached

Many thanks, I await eagerly for your replies

Otherwise I may ask Santa for a hearing aid for Christmas lol!!

Ken


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

I can’t look at your .mdat right now ‘cause I’m at work, but looking at your pictures tells a lot. Vaulted ceilings aren’t a problem, I personally think they are better than a flat ceiling. However, ceramic tile is the absolute worst for room acoustics. I’m sure a lot of the problem is that the room is simply a reverb chamber. A large area rug between the speakers and seating would make an improvement, although not as good as you’d get with wall-to-wall carpeting.

Also, moving the seating closer to the speakers would help as well, as that would allow you to hear more of the direct signal from the speakers vs. the reflected. 10-12 ft. is ideal.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

Welcome

Sorry cant open mdat file at work program not loaded.

What I recommend is read the manual first then ask questions.

Basically a system that is setup properly say worth $5000 is going to sound better than a system that is worth $20,000 not setup properly. The room plays a large part of what you hear.

Hope this helps a bit


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## kcsun (Jul 4, 2012)

Hi Wayne
Thanks for the tips, I have tried using a large rug in front of the centre speaker towards our seating position but did not hear much difference. I will try moving our chairs closer for a couple of days though to see if it improves things but downside of moving them permanently is that we are then getting a bit close to the screen.

I look to your views on my REW file


Philips
I agree that a well sorted cheap system is better than a duff expensive one, but then a well sorted expensive one should sound awesome
I did start to look at the manual but got bamboozled by it all, I just need pointing in the right direction now

Ken


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Your room is gorgeous. Hopefully we can make suggestions you will be able to implement without spoiling its look.

As others have suggested, your room is a reverb chamber, with reverb decay times in the 0.7 second range, and you would like them to be in the 0.4 range if not lower.

On top of that, your fronts and center all have a frequency response dip right in the region that is critical to good intelligibility, around 2 to 3 kHz.

Those are the main problems I see. There are also early reflections from the center and front right that are not helping, although they are likely to be resolved by things you do to eliminate the first problem, so don't worry about those up front.


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

Welcome to the forum Ken.

-Bill


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

A couple other thoughts: Speakers up against the wall is, for most speakers, a guaranteed way to make them sound _not so great._ Three to four feet out from the wall can make a big difference. And your seating appears to have all seating to the sides, none on the center line, the ONE spot that should sound the best in the room.


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## kcsun (Jul 4, 2012)

Hi Wayne, thanks for taking the trouble to reply.

The photo of my lounge does not really show the seating position well. Number 1 and 2 positions (Mrs and me haha) are facing the screen. No1 slightly to the left of centre and No2 just to right of centre.

The side of the wraparound sofa is for guests (who do not appreciate the finer things)

The front L&R speakers are both 30cm from the wall and the centre speaker is 45cm from the front wall.
We are 4metres from the front of the speakers (ears to front of speaker). Swmbo (she who must be obeyed) will not let me put the LR&C further away from the wall

I will be moving the seats closer to the screen and running the software again to see if it makes a difference to the reading, will also bring the rug out the garage as a second test

_I assume you mean the dip at 2.8KHz???_ 

Ken


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

Can someone please post some of the measurements, at work and cant load REW?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Hey kc,

Looking at your graph I agree with Mr. Myers. Your center speaker (and actually all three of the fronts) has a significant trough in the 2-3 kHz range, a critical area for speech intelligibility. If your processor can perform equalization per-channel, I’d recommend boosting that range, and perhaps dragging down the 500-1000 Hz range a bit as well, if you don’t get the intelligibility you need from the 2-3 kHz adjustment.

Another issue is that it appears you are running all your speakers full range. Thus I expect that “boomy” voices, especially male (i.e. excessive low end) is also an issue. This can affect speech intelligibility as well, adding insult to injury with the weak 2-3 kHz range issue.

BTW, great job hiding the back speakers – I don’t see them anywhere!









* Center Speaker*​

Regards, 
Wayne


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Thanks, Wayne P., for catching the booming LF issue, I meant to mention that and forgot.


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## kcsun (Jul 4, 2012)

Hi Wayne

Rear speakers are there!!










They are B&W 9NT in wall models (I love them)

In case you are wondering the Patio doors are offset so the PJ is not mounted centrally above the doors!!

My AVR is an Arcam 600 so does not have any graphic equaliser settings I can play with, it does have Audiossy though.
Because I have large B&W front and centre I thought that is what I should set the amp to, I will re-set them to "small" and look at the results and post later

Thanks

ken


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Thanks for the update on the seating positions, I am relieved to hear that you have your priorities straight and have good seating for your main listening position centered in the speaker delivery area.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

It is also pretty clear that you do not have a whole lot of flexibility with speaker positioning or with moving the listening position very much. As Wayne P has suggested, some acoustical treatment in the form of room decor, a carpet, perhaps a tapestry on the wall, tasteful but also functional, to reduce your echo chamber effect will help a lot. You might also want to consider a little bit of EQ to reduce the base goofiness and increase that two to three kilohertz intelligibility range.


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## kcsun (Jul 4, 2012)

Me again

I have been having a play, the original REW file I uploaded had the left and right speakers set to large although the centre was small











i have now attached three new files for viewing and advice, the centre dip at 2.8kHz seems to be floating about. Should I add smoothing to the graphs so that I can understand them easier?
is there a way of overlaying the centre speaker on all four files to see the difference between them and what change has what effect --- if that makes sense

Photo of the position of the rug 










three attached files are

set all three front speakers to small, hard floor

All three fronts small, rug on floor

All three fronts small, rug on floor, seating position moved forward by 1.5m

Ken


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## kcsun (Jul 4, 2012)

been playing with the graphs and I do not understand!!

this is the original readings on the left right (large) centre (small) and sub with 1/12 smoothing











This is with all three front speakers set to small and a rug in front











to my untrained eye the original (incorrect) setup looks better?

Ken


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

kcsun said:


> to my untrained eye the original (incorrect) setup looks better?


In what way?

Regards, 
Wayne


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## kcsun (Jul 4, 2012)

the three waveforms in the top graph look more in sync with each other??

probably saying totally the wrong thing! should I go and stand in the corner?

Ken


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Yes, right now! 

I guess you mean the area below 100 Hz shows more variation? Won't be audible. A rug wouldn't have made that difference; it's not unusual for measurements to show some variation from one session to the next. To me, the problem are we identified in the 2-3 kHz range is still there. As could be expected; room treatments won’t fix that, only EQ will.

The potential low-end "boom," if you were experiencing any, hopefully should be reduced or eliminated with switching the speakers to small. The graphs look better down there at least.

Regards, 
Wayne


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

By the way, graphs should be vertically scaled 45-105 dB. Unfortunately, a super-wide scale like you have makes things look way better than they really are. See here:

Getting Graphs Ready to Post

Regards, 
Wayne


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## kcsun (Jul 4, 2012)

Thanks Wayne for your help again

Yes, I was referring to the "sub 100Hz" range differences and yes i do now understand they will not help anyway!!

I am trying to learn all the time and will redo the graphs using your limits and see what they look like

My Arcam AVR600 has not got ant eq settings that I can play with although I may try re-doing the "auto setup" again 

Santa says there is no way he can carry a new amp on his sleigh for delivery this Christmas so I will have to put up with the results and try throwing rugs and curtains about and seeing their effects for now

Ken


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## kcsun (Jul 4, 2012)

I have just researched graphic equalisers and may be able to fit a minds model. Have posed the question on the other forum

Ken


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Actually, parametric equalizers are much better that graphic, as you can select the frequency you want to equalize as well as the bandwidth. Bandwidth and frequency centers are fixed on graphic EQs.

Regards, 
Wayne


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Wow, can't say I've ever heard of those. Pretty pricey stuff, but I guess outstanding response like that doesn’t come cheap. I can’t say I’ve ever seen any speaker reviewed by Sound and Vision graph that good, no matter what the price. If they sound anywhere near as good as they measure, they must sound awesome!

Regards, 
Wayne


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## kcsun (Jul 4, 2012)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Wow, can't say I've ever heard of those. Pretty pricey stuff, but I guess outstanding response like that doesn’t come cheap. I can’t say I’ve ever seen any speaker reviewed by Sound and Vision graph that good, no matter what the price. If they sound anywhere near as good as they measure, they must sound awesome!
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


what speakers are you on about Wayne?

Ken


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Sorry, that was meant for another thread...

Regards,
Wayne


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