# $5,000 budget, Audio Recommendations?



## byteguy11 (Aug 2, 2011)

I have a fairly big house with a descent size living room and sit about 11ft from the tv. I have a 60in Pioneer elite kuro going on about 3 years so I'm good on the tv, just need audio now. Saved an audio budget of about 4-5k and I'm looking for Recommendations on what to get. Here is what ive come up with so far:
A/V: onkyo nr3008
Sub: vtf-mk3 (would 2 of these instead of 1 make a big difference?)
Speakers(heard Martin Logan locally and really liked them):
L/R: EM-ESL
Center: EM-C2
Rear: 2x EM-FX2
Amp or preamplifier ? Do I need one?

If it was you what would you do different? Or do I need anything else?

Thanks!


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2011)

5K will get you a lot, if you shop outside of your local audio store. If you can do a little bit of DIY to assemble a ready to go kit, I'd look at these. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=301-943&scqty=2

I'm not really impressed with Martin Logan's at all. If you don't want to touch anything and have it all ready to go, then you might want to look at what SVS offers.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I would at least get a 2 Channel Amplifier for the EM-ESL's. The other ML's should not be a problem for the Onkyo, but the EM-ESL's really do need an Amplifier to sound their best. 

If open to used Amplifiers, a used Parasound HCA-2200 MKII would work great. As would an Aragon 8008ST or bb or even an Acurus A250x2. If wanting new, I would look at a Parasound Halo A-23 if on a budget or ideally an A21.
Cheers,
JJ


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## byteguy11 (Aug 2, 2011)

How do the ML speakers compare to the speakers by PSB around the same price?

Also the ML EMFX2 rear speakers seem expensive at 650ea I wonder what other speakers I could use for rears that aren't as expensive?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The EM-ESL is way different than the other ML Speakers that you are looking at. The EM-ESL is what was considered for decades to be what a Marin Logan Speaker is. Electrostatic.

The other Speakers in the Electromotion Series uses the Folded Motion Tweeter that is actually based off a Heil Design from 20+ Years ago whose Patents had expired. Now the Salesmen and ML will tell you that these Speakers were "Voiced" to be seamless with the EM-ESL, the fact remains it uses a completely different Speaker Design.

PSB Speakers are excellent and are quite neutral. Moreover, matching the Surrounds to the Fronts and Center Channel is not nearly as important. Speaking of that, I would look at a used Martin Logan Cinema or Motif for the Center Channel for the EM-ESL as they both use an Electrostatic Panel. I would recommend the Stage, but it retails for 3000 Dollars and sells used for around 2000 Dollars. The Cinema can be found for around 700 Dollars on Audiogon and would be a far closer match than the Electromotion CC.
Cheers,
JJ


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## byteguy11 (Aug 2, 2011)

This is some great information, especially about the used audio site. 

So is that the speaker and sub configuration you would go with today JJ with a 5k or so budget? There are so many different speakers out there.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I think that the EM-ESL is an awesome Speaker at a really competitive price. Moreover, I think the HSU VTF-2 MKIII is one of the best values out there. Again, I would go with a used ML Cinema as the Center Channel or even a Theater if you could find one at a good enough price.
Cheers,
JJ


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## byteguy11 (Aug 2, 2011)

I measured my enclosure and the speakers would be just a tad too tall to fit, like 2 inches. Therefore I'm thinking of going with 2 jtr triple8's in the front since they fit no prob. Anyone have experience with these speakers?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I did not realize the Speakers are going to be placed in an enclosure. With that being the case, I would have never recommended the EM-ESL's as they would not sound anywhere near their potential when being in an enclosure. 

I have very little experience with JTR's, but what litttle I have has been quite positive. Trust your Ears and use your best judgement.
JJ


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## kstich (Jul 24, 2008)

If you are considering amps, then check out the Emotiva XPA-2 or XPA-5. I have an XPA-5 that I am very happy with, and I have heard others with the Onkyo nr3008 that considered it a big upgrade for the internal amps sound quality. When I got mine I was using a Denon receiver and didn't notice a huge change in SQ except for the bass, which was much better, and the ability to play louder. Midrange and treble were about the same. There are a lot of very happy XPA-2 owners out there with ML speakers too.

Edit: I have the UMC-1 and think it is a huge upgrade from an AVR, but it's not for everyone. YMMV


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I hope you like the Emotiva, but I would personally prefer the 3008 over the Emotiva and I use the 3008 strictly as a Preamp Processor as well. The Emotiva is excellent. It is just Audyssey XT32/SubEQ HT are game changers in my experience.
Cheers,
JJ


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## kstich (Jul 24, 2008)

Understandable, I almost left it out because of that and some other features... some users have had problems with the UMC-1 as well. I have never heard an eq I like, and the UMC-1 sounds great without them. Mind you, I haven't heard an Audyssey setup before either.

The Emotiva amps are great for everybody though! I highly recommend them.


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## byteguy11 (Aug 2, 2011)

Ya the 3008 has great specs, can't wait to listen to it. 

On the speaker front I haven't found anywhere that has jtr speakers to listen to here in SD. There is a place here, dynamic sound systems, that has a good speaker selection I'll check out but no jtr. 

The enclosure in the front has a 48 inch height max so the speakers would have to be below that and the front sub would go in here as well. The other sub and rear l/r would be in the open. Just looking for great sounding speakers 80/20 movies/music. Any Recommendations for fronts, rears and sub(s), excluding AVR, that can be compiled for about 5k?

As I understand it I do not need an amp with the 3008?


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

byteguy11 said:


> On the speaker front I haven't found anywhere that has jtr speakers to listen to here in SD. There is a place here, dynamic sound systems, that has a good speaker selection I'll check out but no jtr.


The JTRs are an internet direct brand. If you want to hear them, you probably have to track down an owner near you, or just take the leap of faith.

I'm sure they're a nice option. However this enclosure you're discussing could prove problematic for full fidelity. It may reflect too much bass energy, and also cause problems with higher frequencies. It's not the approach I would go with.


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## byteguy11 (Aug 2, 2011)

I'll see if I can work on the wife faction to allow the speakers to be outside the enclosure. Here is the picture of the enclosure. It looks small in the pic but it's pretty good size. The TV is 60 inch.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Getting the Speakers out of that Stand really is the best way to get the best sound out of your Speakers. If your Wife will not change her stance, I hope that Audyssey or whatever RoomEQ you are using makes the best out of it. However, it is definitely less than ideal to place them in that.
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

To elaborate; there are two reasons for this:

1) Box speakers eventually become omnipolar as frequency drops. The frequency this happens at depends on the surface area/width of the baffle (front panel of the speaker). As frequency goes down, sound starts to radiate not only forward, but more to the sides and eventually, backwards in a spherical pattern. This rear-wards radiation is problematic, because less bass energy arrives at the listener's ear. To compensate for this, speaker designers will generally "boost" all radiation a good 3 to 6db below the given frequency where the baffle step occurs (IE everything below 500hz for example) in order to make sure bass energy equals midrange and upper frequency energy. Putting a speaker in a cabinet such as this will re-reflect much of that backwards wave and combine it with the forwards wave - leading to an unbalanced, bottom heavy sound. With automatic equalization like audyssey, you might be able to re-balance the bottom end, but such EQs also affect the top end, which can be undesirable as it will change the sound of the speaker. Access to custom EQ filters might help you in this respect, but that would require outbound amplifiers and measurment gear. The closer speakers are to the front wall or large radiating surfaces, the more gain they will get at the bottom end. 

2) Any reflections and diffractions from nearby lateral sources will create phantom sound sources which in turn, will be harmful to the sound. They will reduce the fidelity of the signal (timbral accuracy and stereo image are particularily affected). I prefer to keep every speaker away from such phantom sound sources - walls, televisions, cabinets, stands, etc. I've actually got my speakers a good 4 feet out from the front wall, and around 3 feet in from the side walls, but they're attractive tower speakers so it doesn't look bad... Returning to the matter of the rearward radiation above, my own speakers as now so far away from the front wall that the compensation for the baffle step actually became inadequate, and thus I need to apply more via external EQ in order to balance the sound. It's the mid and high frequencies that suffer from nearby objects, because instead of arriving late, they arrive at your ears very early and confuse your brain.

At the very least, I think you should get them 2 feet from the wall and 3+ feet from any side wall or diffraction sources, and the stereo pair at least 8 feet away from each other.


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