# Need amp recommendations for two-channel system



## mikesp1

I am looking for a new amp for my Piosound Eagle electrostats as the Onkyo A9070 integrated rated at 140watt at 4 ohm seems not so great match.

I am on tight budget right now and was wondering if a pro amp or diy hypex amp would match the electrostats.

Any suggestions?

Here are the specs:

Frequency Response (Hz)	45-22kHZ +/- 3dB
Sensitivity (dB)	86
Impedance Nominal (ohm)	4
Amplifier minimum (watt)	75
Amplifier recommended (watt)	100
Dimensions (cm)	177 x 36 x 3,5
Dimensions electronic housing (cm)	20 x 31 x 5
Weight (kg)	32


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## kevin360

*Re: 2 Channel Picture Gallery*



mikesp1 said:


> New living room speakers.
> 
> Piosound Eagle electrostats replacing the Klipsch RF-5 horns.


That's an interesting pair of speakers. I'd love to audition them. There are some definite advantages to a segmented ESL design and this one appears to maximize those ends. I love the materials Piosound chose for the framing. They look nice too. They suggest that the Eagles should be a more benign load than the typical ESL, with no ugly dips. They also recommend 100 watts, which the Onkyo exceeds with its 4ohm rating. On paper, at least, your present integrated amp ought to be fine. 

For me, those speakers would have to be supplemented with a subwoofer (or two). 

That's a very clean look - elegant. In what way is the Onkyo apparently insufficient? I don't mean to sound incredulous. I'm genuinely curious. What appears fine on paper doesn't always translate to the real world.


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## mikesp1

*Re: 2 Channel Picture Gallery*

Well, i first auditioned them at a friends place, who i actuallybthe dealer.
They were in a small space (bedroom like) connected to two Musical Fidelity monoblocks rated to 600watts and sounded tremendous with full bass.

Now they are in a large reverberant space and to my ears there is not muh beneath 60 - 70 hz.repositioning does not much help, so i was wondering if the Onkyo has problems to drive the electrostats beneath that range.

Now, i must admit that in my second music room (cinema) i am used to four stereo integrity sealed subs, with lots of pressure.
In the living room with the Pios there is no bass pressure, at my friends house i could definitly live with the Pios without a sub.
Beside the bass, they realy sound fine!

I really like the Onkyo, it paired nicce with the Klipsch speakers but they say to use low capacitive speakercables because the Onkyo does not like gigh capacitive loads and thats exactly what electrostats are. So in guess i am a little confused...

Or afterall its just room acoustics, the most important factor...


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## MrAcoustat

*Re: 2 Channel Picture Gallery*



mikesp1 said:


> Well, i first auditioned them at a friends place, who i actuallybthe dealer.
> They were in a small space (bedroom like) connected to two Musical Fidelity monoblocks rated to 600watts and sounded tremendous with full bass.
> 
> Now they are in a large reverberant space and to my ears there is not muh beneath 60 - 70 hz.repositioning does not much help, so i was wondering if the Onkyo has problems to drive the electrostats beneath that range.
> 
> Now, i must admit that in my second music room (cinema) i am used to four stereo integrity sealed subs, with lots of pressure.
> In the living room with the Pios there is no bass pressure, at my friends house i could definitly live with the Pios without a sub.
> Beside the bass, they realy sound fine!
> 
> I really like the Onkyo, it paired nicce with the Klipsch speakers but they say to use low capacitive speakercables because the Onkyo does not like gigh capacitive loads and thats exactly what electrostats are. So in guess i am a little confused...
> 
> Or afterall its just room acoustics, the most important factor...


*Please don't worry, the problem IS the Onkyo stats need GOOD amplification and the Onkyo is a decent HT amplifier BUT not for demanding speakers like ELECTROSTATICS.*


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## mikesp1

*Re: 2 Channel Picture Gallery*



MrAcoustat said:


> *Please don't worry, the problem IS the Onkyo stats need GOOD amplification and the Onkyo is a decent HT amplifier BUT not for demanding speakers like ELECTROSTATICS.*


Any recommandations regarding good amplification? I am on tight budget right know.
Its not what you are thinking about but I could pickup a used Carver M1t for 120€ and later on buy more decent stuff.


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## MrAcoustat

*Re: 2 Channel Picture Gallery*



mikesp1 said:


> Any recommandations regarding good amplification? I am on tight budget right know.
> Its not what you are thinking about but I could pickup a used Carver M1t for 120€ and later on buy more decent stuff.


*Hi Mike, what is your budget NOW it will be easier to recommend good amplification, please don't forget that your speakers are of very good quality and are worth 8000 Euros there are many good amplification BUT nothing that is quality is cheap - Jeff Rowland - Conrad Johnson - Audio Research - Krell - McIntosh - Musical Fidelity - Mark Levinson - Classé Audio - Threshold - Plinius - Pass Labs - and many many more. Good Luck*


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## Sonnie

Moved discussion to its own thread, as it was getting off topic to the 2 channel picture gallery thread.

The Onkyo should be fine at lower volumes. The capacitance issue should not be an issue until you crank it up. If you are playing the speakers are higher levels occasionally, then more power may be the answer. I am using an Emotiva XPR-5 with my MartinLogan Montis, although they are more efficient than these. If your budget is tight, check out the Emotiva models. There is no reason to spend a lot of money to get good power. 

You might also consider a speaker cable with low inductance, low capacitance and a little resistance... something using the Canare 4S11 cable is good. This is the cable I use. You can get those from RAM Electronics. See the speaker evaluation links in my sig for those cables.


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## MrAcoustat

Sonnie said:


> Moved discussion to its own thread, as it was getting off topic to the 2 channel picture gallery thread.
> 
> The Onkyo should be fine at lower volumes. The capacitance issue should not be an issue until you crank it up. If you are playing the speakers are higher levels occasionally, then more power may be the answer. I am using an Emotiva XPR-5 with my MartinLogan Montis, although they are more efficient than these. If your budget is tight, check out the Emotiva models. There is no reason to spend a lot of money to get good power.
> 
> You might also consider a speaker cable with low inductance, low capacitance and a little resistance... something using the Canare 4S11 cable is good. This is the cable I use. You can get those from RAM Electronics. See the speaker evaluation links in my sig for those cables.



Please read carefully about the power of Emotiva.

Greetings all, I'm back with my tail between my legs and an apology to Mr Acoustat. I was running Emotiva XPA-1's and couldn't get my Model 3's to sound good at all. They sounded thin and weak and I could not turn up the volume or the amps would go into protection mode and kick off. He (and others) pointed out, and rightly so, the Acoustats need much current to operate correctly and the Emotivas were too puny. I took offense to his remarks and went off. Well after much soul searching, studying and discussions with others, the Emotivas are gone. In their place is a Hafler DH-500 amp topped off with an Audible Illusions Modulus 3 preamp.
The resultant sound is astounding! All the volume I'd ever care to apply, but the sound, WOW! Airy crystalline highs, detailed midrange, deep authoritative bass, layer upon layer of detail, a holographic soundstage with each instrument not just in its place side to side, but 3 dimensionally. The best I'd heard before this was a set of KLH Model 9's and to my ears the Acoustats easily best them.
All I can say is thanks for the advice, even though it was hard to swallow, the end result is nothing short of amazing! LONG LIVE ACOUSTATS!!


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## Wardsweb

I too will voice caution when choosing an amp for electrostats. While your speakers are 4 ohm nominal, they will deep lower at higher frequencies. As the ohms go down the impedance goes up, making it difficult for some amps to drive the speakers. 

I tried a Carver m1.5t with Martin Logan CLS and it would go into clipping at anything above soft listening levels. Then a Carver TFM-35 that was better but still couldn't handle the speakers. Next was a Carver A500X that was pretty good but still worked a little to hard for my taste. I tried a Carver A760x that was really good. It has plenty of power and could deliver the current needed. I replaced that with a pair of Carver Silver 7T mono blocs that drove the speakers easily, like a walk in the park.

I sold the CLS and got a pair of Martin Logan Prodigy electrostats. I drove those with a pair of Spread Sprectrum Technologies Ampzilla 2000 mono blocks that can drive speakers below one ohm. They are not cheap but are phenominal. I have since got a Jolida JD1000RC tube amp, with 100 watts per channel. It has no issue pushing the electrostats.

Take a look at the Behringer EP4000 pro amp. It can handle the low ohms and high impedance. It has gain controls so you can tailor it to your system. It does use a fan for cooling that I suggest changing. This one from Digikey works well and is quiet. http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/3110SB-05W-B20-E00/P14751-ND/2615564


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## Andre

Ask your friend to borrow the MF monoblocks for a Saturday and see how they sound in your room. Try repositioning the speakers (more or less from rear/side walls, toe in to listening postion..etc)


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## ajinfla

mikesp1 said:


> I am looking for a new amp for my Piosound Eagle electrostats as the Onkyo A9070 integrated rated at 140watt at 4 ohm seems not so great match..


Hi Mike,

I'm not surprised the Onkyo is stumbling. THE most critical parameter for "matching" or picking the right amp, is the impedance _measurement
_ of the speaker, not the "specs".
As such, you may be in luck, as I found this: http://www.i-fidelity.net/testberichte/high-end/pio-sound-eagle/labor-seite-5-testbericht-pio-sound-eagle.html










2 ohm minimas on both ends means gutless amps need not apply.



mikesp1 said:


> I am on tight budget right now and was wondering if a pro amp or diy hypex amp would match the electrostats.


Yes, many pro amps (including inexpensive ones) would handle that with ease. Not sure about the Hypex, but possibly.
My suggestion (if they will ship to Belgium): http://classdaudio.com/audio-amplifiers/sds-400c-class-d-audio-stereo-power-amplifier.html
Yes, old Carvers, Adcoms, Haflers and Parasounds, etc. are also possibilities.

cheers


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## MrAcoustat

*Sorry Mike, as for ME i would NEVER recommend class D amplification of course this is only my choice but for me class D amps where made for subwoofers and that's where they belong of course there are a FEW exceptions but they are not cheap, in my book 500 watts amplifiers that weigh 18 pounds is very hard to comprehend i like my amps HOT and HEAVY i live in a condo now and i own a small integrated amplifier BUT it is a quality product driving 81db Acoustat 1+1s stats no problem what so ever.*


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## Sonnie

From what I can tell the Emotiva XPA-1 has a beefier power supply and capacitance than the Hafler, so not sure what the issue was with those running the Acoustats. I know a lot of people using Emotiva on stats and they are perfectly happy... and stat owners are usually pretty critical of their amps. Emotiva's newer XPR series are pretty serious and I have an XPR-5 driving my MartinLogans... drove my Prodigy's that dip down to 1 ohm, without any issues whatsoever.... AS DID the XPA-1 monoblocks I had running the Prodigy's. Never a minutes problem... both sound great with the ML's. Their XPR-1 monoblocks are getting on up there in price though... that power supply has a 2.5 kVA toroidal power transformer with 240,000 uF low ESR capacitor bank.

Roger Sanders of Sanders Sound System is one who is big on the proper amps to power electrostatic speakers. His Magtech is the bomb of high current amps, but they ain't cheap by any means. He wrote several white papers on amp power to drive stats. He actually recommended the Behringer EP2500 as a sufficiently good amp for his speakers provided you swap out the fan. I agree... the fans are loud and I have swapped out all the fans in my four EP2500's that I use on my subs. Actually I only use two of them right now. They are beefy amps.


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## kevin360

I was going to respond to this thread again yesterday, but I really wanted to see an impedance vs frequency plot - thanks for its inclusion in this thread (I also found that review to be interesting). My initial comment was based upon two things - the rated specs of the Onkyo and this:
http://www.audioworld.ch/index.cfm?action=act_getfile&doc_id=103403&lv=1

The plot tells a contrary story to the ad copy. Well, with a dip to 1.7 ohms at 10kHz, the ad copy is only fractionally true - it's _not_ 1 ohm. On that basis, I would suggest a beefier amp with rather low output impedance (that rises very gently with frequency). The Carver mentioned is not likely an improvement. The amps Sonnie mentioned might do the trick on a budget. I know of a few people with good things to say about them, but they are using them with Maggies, which truly are a benign load.


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## mikesp1

Thanks to everyone for helping me out and the great information!

Well, i am on tight budget right now, just finished my new home theatre room:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...room-sloped-front-rear-wall-8.html#post634096

It is equiped with new speakers aswell, Klipsch Palladium front, center and surrounds and four diy Si 18 subs powered with Ep2500's.

I am planning to use an EP2500 this weekend between the electrostats, i know the Ep2500 will not blow me away with super high fidelity sound but perhaps this test will give me an idea regarding the power those Pio's need.

Still all info regarding good amplification is much appreciated, In the mean time i can save a little bit...

A good pro amp continues to intrigue me, if you look at the specs of these devices these days...


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## mikesp1

MrAcoustat said:


> *Sorry Mike, as for ME i would NEVER recommend class D amplification of course this is only my choice but for me class D amps where made for subwoofers and that's where they belong of course there are a FEW exceptions but they are not cheap, in my book 500 watts amplifiers that weigh 18 pounds is very hard to comprehend i like my amps HOT and HEAVY i live in a condo now and i own a small integrated amplifier BUT it is a quality product driving 81db Acoustat 1+1s stats no problem what so ever.*


Check out the new ncore class d amps from hypex: http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/1.html
2 mono block ncore [email protected] around 1800dollar diy


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## MrAcoustat

mikesp1 said:


> Check out the new ncore class d amps from hypex: http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/1.html
> 2 mono block ncore [email protected] around 1800dollar diy


*Those are part of my EXCEPTIONS my friend own's them and they are very good but not CHEAP $2,000.00 depending on the - parts - casing - work - this all adds up to QUALITY standards.*

http://www.merrillaudio.net/veritas.html


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## mikesp1

MrAcoustat said:


> *Those are part of my EXCEPTIONS my friend own's them and they are very good but not CHEAP $2,000.00 depending on the - parts - casing - work - this all adds up to QUALITY standards.*
> 
> http://www.merrillaudio.net/veritas.html


Does your friend drive electrostats whit these amps?


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## MrAcoustat

mikesp1 said:


> Does your friend drive electrostats whit these amps?


*No he drives Wilson Watt Puppy clones.*


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## MrAcoustat

ajinfla said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> I'm not surprised the Onkyo is stumbling. THE most critical parameter for "matching" or picking the right amp, is the impedance _measurement
> _ of the speaker, not the "specs".
> As such, you may be in luck, as I found this: http://www.i-fidelity.net/testberichte/high-end/pio-sound-eagle/labor-seite-5-testbericht-pio-sound-eagle.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2 ohm minimas on both ends means gutless amps need not apply.
> 
> 
> Yes, many pro amps (including inexpensive ones) would handle that with ease. Not sure about the Hypex, but possibly.
> My suggestion (if they will ship to Belgium): http://classdaudio.com/audio-amplifiers/sds-400c-class-d-audio-stereo-power-amplifier.html
> Yes, old Carvers, Adcoms, Haflers and Parasounds, etc. are also possibilities.
> 
> cheers


*Please be very careful with SPECS some of them can realy fool you, after reading all the specs on the Onkyo i would like you to read the specs on this Classé DR3-VHC 45 watts per channel pure class A amplifier and tell me wich one you would want.*


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## mikesp1

MrAcoustat said:


> *Please be very careful with SPECS some of them can realy fool you, after reading all the specs on the Onkyo i would like you to read the specs on this Classé DR3-VHC 45 watts per channel pure class A amplifier and tell me wich one you would want.*


Yes, i've got the picture.

I would go for the Classe for its dual power supply, large capacitors...

After i saved some money i will opt for a decent amplifier that will match the pio's.
In the mean time i will give pro amps a try, they will give me the disired wattage and impedance.

Afterwards the pro amp can be utilised for another diy subwoofer project, so its not a waste of money.


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## Sonnie

There are so many better options out there than Class A amps that I would personally never consider one, although I did one time and several of my audiophile buddies knocked some sense into me really quickly. Not only are they terribly inefficient, they are very expensive in most cases and offer very little bang for the buck.

The Classé DR3 cost $12,000 new, no longer made and are hard to find. Even if you find one for $2-3,000 ... it is going to be used (the lower the price it is likely the worse it will look) and you take a risk buying it used, especially paying that kind of money with no warranty. It just doesn't make good sense. Before I spend the kind of money that Class A amps require for the kind of current I wanted, I would not think twice about buying Sanders Magtech amp... which is quite superior to most any Class A amp built at $5,500. I also believe his pricing is negotiable... yet most never even bother to ask him. Of course I did not think twice about buying the Emotiva XPR amp that runs about $2,000 and will power anything out there to ear-piercing levels and do it as clean as any amp on the market.


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## mikesp1

The Emotiva XPA-2 rated at [email protected] seems a real bargain for 799dollar
Sonny do you know if the emotivav is 2ohm stable?


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## Sonnie

Yes they are. I know of a couple of Emotiva XPA owners that run 2 ohm speakers without issues. They have posted this in the Emotiva forum. One is actually presenting a 1 ohm load to the amp. 

I ran the XPA-1 monoblocks with my MartinLogan Prodigy's that dip down to 1 ohm... no issues whatsoever. 

Emotiva does not advertise 2 ohm stable, but they will tell you they are indeed able to handle 2 ohm loads without issues. 

While not as beefy at the XPR-2 (which is what I would recommend if you can afford it), the XPA-2 is definitely no slouch with plenty of power and a nice power supply using a 1,200VA toroidal transformer with 45,000uF low ESR storage capacitance... weighing in over 70lbs. They have a really good sale going on right now too.


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## ajinfla

mikesp1 said:


> i _know_ the Ep2500 will not blow me away with super high fidelity *sound*


It might, unless overwhelmed by expectation biases and a host of other well known audiophile maladies.
But that has nothing to do with the soundwaves/soundfield part of the "sound" and everything to do with the post processing past the pinna, where the "sound" maladies await.
Guess we'll see .
Good luck with your audio adventures.

cheers


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## Sonnie

Yeah... if you can somehow get all the power out of one of them and then you need to be able to hear .1% distortion.

The fan will definitely be noticeable if you don't swap it out to a quieter one. That might effect your high fidelity-ness.


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## mikesp1

Sonnie said:


> Yeah... if you can somehow get all the power out of one of them and then you need to be able to hear .1% distortion.
> 
> The fan will definitely be noticeable if you don't swap it out to a quieter one. That might effect your high fidelity-ness.


Fan wil not be a problem, audiorack is in another room.
Thats why in this particular setup i dont care for fancy good looking devices, all it has to do is power the Pio's as best as it can.


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## Sonnie

I don't think you will be disappointed. If an EP2500 is good enough for Sanders 10c speakers, not sure why they would not be just as good for your speakers.


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## MrAcoustat

Sonnie said:


> I don't think you will be disappointed. If an EP2500 is good enough for Sanders 10c speakers, not sure why they would not be just as good for your speakers.


*It may do the job BUT please remember that Sanders model 10 & 11 are hybrids speakers with 94db efficiency the Martin Logan Prodigy is also an hybrid speaker with 91db efficiency the Piosound Eagle is a Full Range true electrostatic with 86db efficiency MUCH harder to drive. Good Luck with your choice *


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## mikesp1

Guys, this weekend i will try the EP2500.

It is not intended to play with the PIO's constant at high volume for that i have the high eficient Klipsch speakers in the dedicated home cinema room.
So i gues i do not need the complete wattage of the Ep2500, but rather its stability at the 2ohm impedance the Pio's need and wich the Onkyo clearly is not able to deliver, even on low volume. 

I post my findings here.


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## Sonnie

Correct... efficiency is not really an issue as much as the impedance, but you have both covered very nicely with the EP2500. Lower efficiency just means you need more power to achieve the same level output of a higher efficiency speaker. 

While MartinLogan and Sanders are hybrids, their electrostatic drivers are what dip to a low impedance.


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## Sonnie

Going back to your Onkyo... you said it "seems" like not so good of a match (I just now caught that). Have you tried it and is it clipping? If not, and you only intend to play it at lower volumes, it should be fine. When you crank it on up is where you might experience some issues.


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## mikesp1

Sonnie said:


> Going back to your Onkyo... you said it "seems" like not so good of a match (I just now caught that). Have you tried it and is it clipping? If not, and you only intend to play it at lower volumes, it should be fine. When you crank it on up is where you might experience some issues.



Sonnie,

On Klipsch speakers the Onkyo performs verry well with warm, mellow sound and refined bass, on the Pio's it sounds way too mellow and stressed.
I can turn the Onkyo almost complete open on the Pio's, with the klipsches 1/4 of volume is verry loud, i have not noticed clipping however.

It does not sound right, it seems the pio's stress the amp already on low volume, it is weird, i know.


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## Sonnie

Hmmm... stressed? Can you describe what that sounds like? Are you maybe hearing some distortion or clipping when you crank it up? 

I think this is the first time I have heard anyone describe Klipsch speakers as warm and mellow.


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## mikesp1

Sonnie said:


> I think this is the first time I have heard anyone describe Klipsch speakers as warm and mellow.


That's exactly what The Onkyo does on the Klipsch reference RF-5 towers compared to other amplifiers including Sunfire preo /pro.
I think the build in dac, dual wolfson (like rega dac) has something to do with it... 

It was a great match with the klipsches.


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## Sonnie

They should sound the same with any competent amp, which would be about any amp, considering the efficiency and impedance of Klipsch speakers. They don't need much of an amp to drive them.

I am just surprised that you describe them as warm and mellow. Generally I hear dynamic... which I think would be opposite of mellow. I hear from those that don't like them that they are too bright and/or forward. 

I suppose people hear speakers in different ways though, hence so many different speakers and reasons people own them.


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## mikesp1

Sonnie said:


> TGenerally I hear dynamic... .


My buddy describes them as "electrodynamic speakers"


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## mikesp1

Sonnie said:


> I hear from those that don't like them that they are too bright and/or forward.


Sonnie, i owned lots of klipsch speakers, if they sound too bright or forward, you must match the right equipment, they are verry sensitive to changes in the audio chain.

A change in speaker or interconnects has deep impact! Take that from someone who certainly is not a cable man, but on Klipsch it is no voodoo.
By changing equipment and cables you can realy fine tune those speakers.


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## Sonnie

Sounds like you and your buddy may have different hearing. :whistling:

We had a little 100 wpc amp here running the Magnepans, which are full range planar that can be difficult to drive. They had issues when cranked up, but sounded really good at lower volumes.

My Prodigy's also had issues with a lower powered receiver I had, but I had to seriously crank them up to hear it. It was not any levels that I would listen to on a regular basis... actually never... as I was trying to make it happen to see if I could. I was successful. :bigsmile:


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## Sonnie

mikesp1 said:


> Sonnie, i owned lots of klipsch speakers, if they sound too bright or forward, you must match the right equipment, they are verry sensitive to changes in the audio chain.
> 
> A change in speaker or interconnects has deep impact!


I have certainly never heard anyone describe Klipsch speakers as sensitive to equipment. They are some of the easiest speakers to make sound good with just about anything, if you like their sound. Some people just do not like the sound of horns, which can sound bright and/or forward to _some people_, not all. The room will have more influence on the sound that anything else. Interconnects and cables won't normally make a difference. If you hear something with a change in either, it is likely you had a bad cable.

Cables certainly should not have any impact on Klipsch speakers. They shouldn't have much of an impact on any speaker for that matter... at least not an audible impact. For electrostatic speakers, it might be safe to have a cable with low inductance, low capacitance and some resistance... but for regular dynamic speakers... I highly doubt anyone would notice any difference in a normal run of speaker cables. Cables do not make a speaker forward or bright.


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## mikesp1

Sonnie said:


> I have certainly never heard anyone describe Klipsch speakers as sensitive to equipment. They are some of the easiest speakers to make sound good with just about anything, if you like their sound. Some people just do not like the sound of horns, which can sound bright and/or forward to _some people_, not all. The room will have more influence on the sound that anything else. Interconnects and cables won't normally make a difference. If you hear something with a change in either, it is likely you had a bad cable.
> 
> Cables certainly should not have any impact on Klipsch speakers. They shouldn't have much of an impact on any speaker for that matter... at least not an audible impact. For electrostatic speakers, it might be safe to have a cable with low inductance, low capacitance and some resistance... but for regular dynamic speakers... I highly doubt anyone would notice any difference in a normal run of speaker cables. Cables do not make a speaker forward or bright.


Of course every speaker has its own tonal character. hence it is the forward sound of Klipsch i really like.
But differeces in clables and equipment can make klipsch speakers sound either warmer or rather aggresive.

"warm, melow sound" i mean with the Onkyo, the klipsch speakers are not aggresive or harsh at all, sure they are forward.


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## ajinfla

mikesp1 said:


> But differeces in clables and equipment can make klipsch speakers sound either warmer or rather aggresive.


No. 
Unless by "equipment", you mean an EQ, rather than front end amplification, source, etc.
Otherwise, that's not a "cable", but an inductor....and not an "amplifier", but a special effects box.

cheers


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## mikesp1

Lots of useful information here, but still not as much experience with Klipsch. I've been playing 20 years with Klipsch and know what I am talking about. 

Anyway off topic.

Electrostats are new for me, all info about them and amplificatin are much appreciated.


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## ajinfla

mikesp1 said:


> Lots of useful information here, but still not as much experience with Klipsch. I've been playing 20 years with Klipsch and know what I am talking about.


You are relating your opinions and personal subjective perception.

I am speaking of the scientific reality (relating to soundwave/field), not opinion. 
The two are not/never in conflict with each other.
Unless you assert personal perception as unerring representations of physical reality?



mikesp1 said:


> Anyway off topic.


Not at all, in a "Amp recommendation" thread. There is plenty for readers to learn from here.



mikesp1 said:


> Electrostats are new for me, all info about them and amplificatin are much appreciated.


They and electro-acoustics, are not new to me, plus they are beholden to the laws of physics (and human perceptions) like anything else.
How one understands and applies those, is another matter entirely.

Since the amp is in another room, if you (or better yet, an acquaintance) are capable of matching voltage levels, there is a golden opportunity for you to test the "sound" of the Behringer vs other amps, with your ears.
Based the impedance phase angles shown earlier and tests I've seen of the EP2500, you might be surprised, given your expectations.

cheers


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## mikesp1

ajinfla said:


> Based the impedance phase angles shown earlier and tests I've seen of the EP2500, you might be surprised, given your expectations.
> 
> cheers


There is only one way to find out, testing it, wich i will do next weekend.

With verry low volume the Onkyo is doing fine, but i mean with verry low volume.
As soon as i turn the volume open more it souds stressed to me.

Lets see how the Behringer behaves, with only 86 db efficiency, i think we all agree power is needed.
If the pio"s start to shine like in my friends place (600w mono blocks) we know for shure the Onkyo is insufficient.


----------



## ajinfla

mikesp1 said:


> Lets see how the Behringer behaves, with only 86 db efficiency, i think we all agree power is needed.


Yes, agreed...and the "86db" may be generous, per the test I linked (not clear on input voltage, to this English-only-language reader)



mikesp1 said:


> we know for shure the Onkyo is insufficient.


I think we knew that from my first post, but let's see. 

cheers


----------



## MrAcoustat

mikesp1 said:


> There is only one way to find out, testing it, wich i will do next weekend.
> 
> With verry low volume the Onkyo is doing fine, but i mean with verry low volume.
> As soon as i turn the volume open more it souds stressed to me.
> 
> Lets see how the Behringer behaves, with only 86 db efficiency, i think we all agree power is needed.
> If the pio"s start to shine like in my friends place (600w mono blocks) we know for shure the Onkyo is insufficient.


*Behringer EP-4000 $399.00 that's a good bargain for all those watts.

EP-4000 = 8Ω per channel 550 W - - - 4Ω per channel 950 W - - - 2Ω per channel 1250 W *


http://www.musiciansbuy.com/behringer-ep4000-kit.html


----------



## Sonnie

The EP2500 is equivalent to the EP4000 (50 watts per channel less power) and you can find those for $250 on the used market from time to time.

For the EP4000... check Parts Express at $379.


----------



## mikesp1

Sonnie said:


> The EP2500 is equivalent to the EP4000 (50 watts per channel less power) and you can find those for $250 on the used market from time to time.
> 
> For the EP4000... check Parts Express at $379.


I am not sure but i think it is exactly the same amp measured on different distortion level.


----------



## Sonnie

I think you may be right... one is measured at 1% and the other at .1%. From what I remember, the EP4000 is a rebadge of the EP2500.


----------



## ajinfla

Sonnie said:


> I think you may be right... one is measured at 1% and the other at .1%. From what I remember, the EP4000 is a rebadge of the EP2500.


Yeah, but if he's going to spend $$ on a new amp....
Possessing Behringer will seriously damage ones audiophile street cred, have you branded a Lo-Fi heretic.
For a few $$ more, improve your cred, drive complex loads with aplomb and plenty power reserves, no need to hide (available in black or silver) and save the planet with green power.

cheers


----------



## mikesp1

ajinfla said:


> Yeah, but if he's going to spend $$ on a new amp....
> Possessing Behringer will seriously damage ones audiophile street cred, have you branded a Lo-Fi heretic.
> For a few $$ more, improve your cred, drive complex loads with aplomb and plenty power reserves, no need to hide (available in black or silver) and save the planet with green power.
> 
> cheers



What are your thoughts between class d, ab, h?


----------



## Sonnie

ajinfla said:


> Yeah, but if he's going to spend $$ on a new amp....
> Possessing Behringer will seriously damage ones audiophile street cred, have you branded a Lo-Fi heretic.
> For a few $$ more, improve your cred, drive complex loads with aplomb and plenty power reserves, no need to hide (available in black or silver) and save the planet with green power.
> 
> cheers


Good point... some do have a reputation to uphold. Although he has his in an equipment room, so when people are listening and think he as a $10,000 amp driving his speakers, then he tells them it is a Behringer... well... you can imagine their reaction.

Besides that... that tiny amp you linked to weighs less than 20lbs... it can't be any good. :whistling:


----------



## Sonnie

This might help with the amp classes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_amplifier

A Class H is basically still a Class A/B amp with a more efficient power supply.


----------



## mikesp1

Sonnie said:


> Good point... some do have a reputation to uphold. Although he has his in an equipment room, so when people are listening and think he as a $10,000 amp driving his speakers, then he tells them it is a Behringer... well... you can imagine their reaction.
> 
> Besides that... that tiny amp you linked to weighs less than 20lbs... it can't be any good. :whistling:


Well i dont care about reputation.
All i want is an amp that lets the Pio's shine.

What are you guys trying to say? All amps are the same if wattage and distortion is on the same level?


----------



## mikesp1

Sonnie said:


> sowhen people are listening and think he as a $10,000 amp driving his speakers, then he tells them it is a Behringer... well... you can imagine their reaction.
> 
> :


That would certainly be fun, and after all the only thing that counts to me is the sound quality


----------



## Sonnie

I think most competent amps will sound the same as long as they are not driven into clipping. If they sound different, then they are either being over-driven or they are coloring the sound. You basically want an amp to be neutral and not effect the sound. The electronics in general should not effect the sound, unless you like a particular frequency equalized more than another. IOW... the electronics should be good enough (and most are these days) that they should be neutral in their delivery. Some may have more features that you prefer than others... in some cases you may need more power, a better power supply, higher current, etc.

As I understand it... the problem with electrostatic speakers is they can cause an amp to clip a bit quicker than dynamic speakers, particularly lower powered amps that have weaker power supplies that do not produce much current. Also lower powered amps with protection circuitry might engage to prevent clipping more often than not when driving electrostatics. Some may not notice it... others with better ears might. There are better explanations than this, but I think this summarizes it.


----------



## ajinfla

mikesp1 said:


> What are your thoughts between class d, ab, h?


They can all be very good, very bad and everything in between.
They are simply "classes" of amplifier, much like "electrostat" is a only a type of speaker. It really tells you very little about the actual performance.
"D" of course, in generally "green" in terms of power consumption...and generated heat.



mikesp1 said:


> Well i dont care about reputation.
> All i want is an amp that lets the Pio's shine.


Hmmm, you may already have one.



mikesp1 said:


> .
> What are you guys trying to say? All amps are the same if wattage and distortion is on the same level?


No!!
All SS and tube amps, within a given paradigm (linear operation and sufficient bandwidth, power vs load, low level linearity (<1w), etc, etc, etc.) tend to be indistinguishable by soundwaves/field [blind].

However, out in the real world, those caveats are seldom met....and neither you nor I listen blind.

cheers


----------



## mikesp1

ajinfla said:


> Hmmm, you may already have one.
> 
> cheers


Hmmmn, i am too excited, will try the Behringer tomorrow morning!


----------



## Sonnie

ajinfla said:


> ....and neither you nor I listen blind.


What... you never shut your eyes to listen... afraid someone is gonna sneak in on ya and get ya? :devil:

Now how do you know he never listens blind? :dontknow:

I shut my eyes all the time when I am listening. I have actually even listened while I was asleep (the music was still playing when I woke up), although I doubt I noticed any differences then either.


----------



## mikesp1

Oh boy, the Pios came alive with the Ep2500. I am listening to different speakers.

Now it is time for some serious listening...


----------



## Sonnie

Glad to hear that you are initially pleased.


----------



## mikesp1

Impression after all day long listening test:

It does the job, and delvers the needed power, however it is not the most musical amp.

I do not want to mislead anybody.

It is a rough amp,no micro details and a little harsh, mids and lows are fine.
It shows the potentials of the Pio's and can run them at high volume without distortion.
I noticed no noisefloor ,hiss,humm or whatever.

For now it can certainly serve, until i saved for a better more musical amp.

Another question rises: is it the power or its stability that served the Pio's better? I guess both.


----------



## Sonnie

Hmmm... had no idea there was such a thing as one amp being more "musical" than another. A competent amp should be neutral.

Rough and harsh? Yet there is no distortion, no clipping and the mids and highs are fine. I have used one or more of my EP2500's on regular speakers (other than subs) and it is as clean and detailed as any amp I have ever heard (which is quite a few from cheap to expensive).

If there is plenty of power, no clipping and no distortion, that is as good as it gets. The rest is mind over matter, but if it will make you feel better spending more money and getting something you "think" is better, go for it. :T


----------



## cavchameleon

I too find it strange when someone states one amp being more musical than another (as long as they are not driven into clipping and played within their specs), especially most modern well made amps (most credible companies' amps fall into this category). I have an EP4000 (exactly the same as the EP2500 for all considerations) and couldn't hear any difference from other amps (Denon, Onkyo, Parasound, Emotiva, etc.). My only issue with it is that it's not very pretty if put in a main room, but if hidden (in a cabinet, other room, etc.) I have no issue using it. Good luck on your journey.


----------



## mikesp1

cavchameleon said:


> I too find it strange when someone states one amp being more musical than another (as long as they are not driven into clipping and played within their specs), especially most modern well made amps (most credible companies' amps fall into this category). I have an EP4000 (exactly the same as the EP2500 for all considerations) and couldn't hear any difference from other amps (Denon, Onkyo, Parasound, Emotiva, etc.). My only issue with it is that it's not very pretty if put in a main room, but if hidden (in a cabinet, other room, etc.) I have no issue using it. Good luck on your journey.


One thing i did not test is something like an Samson S-cnvert between the rca of the home audio preamp and the xlr of the pro amp. i felt this was not necessary because i could already play verry loud without.
I doubt it would change my ipressions. Please advice me if i am wrong.


----------



## ajinfla

mikesp1 said:


> i know the Ep2500 will not blow me away with super high fidelity sound





mikesp1 said:


> Impression after all day long listening test:
> It does the job, and delvers the needed power, however it is not the most musical amp.
> I do not want to mislead anybody.
> It is a rough amp,no micro details and a little harsh, mids and lows are fine.


Expectations met. 
As predicted, you may have to spend a bit more for the >pinna processing stuff.
Tough to say exactly how much.



Sonnie said:


> Hmmm... had no idea there was such a thing as one amp being more "musical" than another.


"West Side Story" sounds great on one, not so much on the other. Words are obscured/gritty, pace is off, etc. 
Stuff like that.

cheers


----------



## ajinfla

mikesp1 said:


> One thing i did not test is something like an Samson S-cnvert between the rca of the home audio preamp and the xlr of the pro amp. i felt this was not necessary because i could already play verry loud without.
> I doubt it would change my ipressions. Please advice me if i am wrong.


If you're not getting any hiss or gain structure artifacts and there is no sense of strain, you're fine as is.

You already know my "musicality" cure for casual listening. It's gonna set you back $700 USD, prior to shipping.
Maybe an NCore?

cheers


----------



## mikesp1

ajinfla said:


> "West Side Story" sounds great on one, not so much on the other. Words are obscured/gritty, pace is off, etc.
> Stuff like that.
> 
> cheers


Totally agree!


----------



## Sonnie

That is part of your problem... watching West Side Story. I can't seem to find anything it sounds good on.

I will just give you guys credit for having magical ears and leave it at that. At least I don't have to worry about it ... or my pocket book. :T


----------



## mikesp1

ajinfla said:


> Maybe an NCore?
> 
> cheers


Ncore is something i realy want to try ,around 2000€ it is a nice diy project.
On the otherhand Ucd modules are in promotion right know and can be had around 800€

Dont know if there is a big difference between them?


----------



## ajinfla

Sonnie said:


> That is part of your problem... watching West Side Story. I can't seem to find anything it sounds good on.


Then it's painfully obvious your system lacks musicality. What about with A Chorus Line or Phantom of the Opera? Grainy and off rhythm?



Sonnie said:


> I will just give you guys credit for having magical ears and leave it at that.


As I have explained, the magic occurs >pinna (ears)....
Up to that point, the soundfield (pardon the pun) possesses no magic. Just plain 'ol country boy physics/soundwaves.
"Magical CPUs", is more apt.



Sonnie said:


> At least I don't have to worry about it ... or my pocket book. :T


Right, but your street cred is in ruins and your audiophile card now revoked. 
Mike has escaped such a fate by "hearing" the lowly EP2500, as expected.



mikesp1 said:


> Ncore is something i realy want to try ,around 2000€ it is a nice diy project.
> On the otherhand Ucd modules are in promotion right know and can be had around 800€


If for you, 2000 euro is ok to try something, try away. I am not aware of any controlled listening vs the UCD. If Bruno (or others) have done so, please link. I have my doubts any statistically significant differences exist. Precisely why I recommended the SDS470. However.....



mikesp1 said:


> Dont know if there is a big difference between them?


1200€
Plus enough technical jargon for the untechnical, hype, street cred concerns...and the fact neither you nor I listen blind....to justify spending/buying whatever most pleases you.

cheers


----------



## Sonnie

ajinfla said:


> Then it's painfully obvious your system lacks musicality. What about with A Chorus Line or Phantom of the Opera? Grainy and off rhythm?


Nope and nope... do not own those, but I do have The Sound of Music. I just haven't watched it, so I still lack that musical experience. :sad:

Oh wait... I did watch the most recent Phantom of the Opera a few years ago, but I don't remember much about it and it wasn't on this system, which might not be up to par since it is an Emotiva XPR amp and MartinLogan Montis. Could be the inexpensive cables I use. :huh:


----------



## mikesp1

Today i did a test with my sunfire theatre grand amp.
It is a [email protected], [email protected] amp on its 5 channels.

I used just 2 channels on the Pio's. Sound was superb, not a surprise this amp realy shines in the theatre room connected to the klipsch Palladiums.


----------



## Sonnie

I have owned that amp before. Nice amp with plenty of power. Overkill for the Klipsch, but still an amp with plenty of power. Sound wise, I never could tell any difference between it and a couple of Denon receivers I owned... nor a McIntosh amp, although I liked the McIntosh amp better because it looked cool. During that time I also tried a pair of Adcom monoblocks. I was searching for something, but it wasn't sound, because they were all the same, just looked different and took up different amounts of space. If I am remembering correctly, the Sunfire has a pretty good design for electrostatics, similar to the EP2500, although perhaps a little less power than the 2500.


----------



## mikesp1

Sonnie said:


> Overkill for the Klipsch


I would not say that, altough klipsch speakers are very sensitive, they like big amps! 
There impedance can also dip beneath 2ohm.


----------



## mikesp1

Sonnie;663221The Sunfire has a pretty good design for electrostatics said:


> I do not want to be rude, but if you can not hear the difference between the sunfire and the behringer you definitly have some hearing problems.


----------



## mikesp1

Sonnie;663221The Sunfire has a pretty good design for electrostatics said:


> I do not want to be rude, but if you can not hear the difference between the sunfire and the behringer you definitly have some hearing problems.
> 
> The tests i did this weekend showed large differences in musicality.
> 
> If you owned such nice amps before, did you realy ever tested the ep2500 for two channel listening?
> 
> Hometheatreshack is a nice forum where people can help each other out. But i like fair and honest facts.


----------



## Sonnie

Too bad you are in Belgium, as you would be the perfect candidate for our double blind listening tests for amps. I think it would be very interesting to get you in a controlled double blind listening test with both of these amps. No offense and also not to be rude, but I highly suspect you would be like ole Zipser was when he was faced with that little ole inexpensive Yamaha AX-700 100-watt integrated amplifier vs his $14K Pass Lab Aleph 1.2 monoblock 200-watt amplifiers... and him yelping he could easily tell a difference. He and several others were extremely surprised (perhaps embarrassed) that they were unable to tell any difference in blind testing. And the Sunfire and Behringer amps here are so much more similar than those two amps... the main difference is the price. If they sound that much different, then something is wrong with one or the other. Again, you want any amp to simply be neutral, or otherwise it would be doing something to the signal that it should not be doing and hence, will not be neutral. Of course colored sound and/or added distortion is sometimes a desirable trait... I just highly doubt Sunfire or Behringer are going to pursue either of those traits in their amps.


----------



## mikesp1

Sonnie said:


> Too bad you are in Belgium, as you would be the perfect candidate for our double blind listening tests for amps. I think it would be very interesting to get you in a controlled double blind listening test with both of these amps. No offense and also not to be rude, but I highly suspect you would be like ole Zipser was when he was faced with that little ole inexpensive Yamaha AX-700 100-watt integrated amplifier vs his $14K Pass Lab Aleph 1.2 monoblock 200-watt amplifiers... and him yelping he could easily tell a difference. He and several others were extremely surprised (perhaps embarrassed) that they were unable to tell any difference in blind testing. And the Sunfire and Behringer amps here are so much more similar than those two amps... the main difference is the price. If they sound that much different, then something is wrong with one or the other. Again, you want any amp to simply be neutral, or otherwise it would be doing something to the signal that it should not be doing and hence, will not be neutral. Of course colored sound and/or added distortion is sometimes a desirable trait... I just highly doubt Sunfire or Behringer are going to pursue either of those traits in their amps.


Between quality home amplifiers working in there range you could be right.

But i am gonna make a statement: between all these home amplifiers i pick that behringer out in every blid test and i feel verry confortable about it!.


----------



## Sonnie

I have read similar statements before. 

If that is true... I suspect there may be something wrong with your Behringer. :T


----------



## ajinfla

mikesp1 said:


> Between quality home amplifiers working in there range you could be right.


Soundfields don't "know" whether they are created via "quality" "home" or "pro" amplification. But your brain does.



mikesp1 said:


> But i am gonna make a statement: between all these home amplifiers i pick that behringer out in every blid test and i feel verry confortable about it!.


Of course. Statements are easy to make.
Differentiation of level matched amplifiers behaving linearly into loads, without peeking, not so much.

Before "arguing" further, take some time to discover the vast field of human psychology. It applies to you, like it/believe it or not.

cheers


----------



## mikesp1

Please close this thread.


----------



## Sonnie

Why would we do that? We are just now beginning to have fun.


----------



## mikesp1

Sonnie said:


> Why would we do that? We are just now beginning to have fun.


 I dont find it funny that lots of people will buy these Behringer amps thinking (because of this thread) they are sonicaly as good as any other good home audio amps.

This simply is not true, it is a rough amp with plenty of power for the money, but if you can not hear the difference in musicality between amps, you have some hearing problems.

However ihave two of these amps in my home theatre powering 4 18inch subs, they are fine for for this purpose.

I am not saying there are no good pro amps for two channel istening at home, but this Behringer amp certainly is not.

If someone can point me to a good pro amp for home listening, i am willing to do the test, Behringer is end of story.


----------



## JBrax

Please don't close this thread. It's been a very entertaining read.


----------



## MrAcoustat

mikesp1 said:


> I dont find it funny that lots of people will buy these Behringer amps thinking (because of this thread) they are sonicaly as good as any other good home audio amps.
> 
> This simply is not true, it is a rough amp with plenty of power for the money, but if you can not hear the difference in musicality between amps, you have some hearing problems.
> 
> However ihave two of these amps in my home theatre powering 4 18inch subs, they are fine for for this purpose.
> 
> I am not saying there are no good pro amps for two channel istening at home, but this Behringer amp certainly is not.
> 
> If someone can point me to a good pro amp for home listening, i am willing to do the test, Behringer is end of story.


*Hi Mike like you i believe that some amps are MUSICAL and that some aren't, if you believe that it's possible to get a GOOD power amplifier with these kinds of power - 550x2 at 8ohms - 950x2 at 4ohms - 1250x2 at 2ohms - for $379.00 YOU DESERVE WHAT YOU GET. plain and simple, it may be good enough for home theater but for ME ME ME it ain't good enough NO PRO GEAR IS MUSICAL in life you always get what you pay for, at least 99% of the time.*

*PS: I hope that this post will not be removed, it is just MY opinion and everyone is intitled to theirs. Thank's*


----------



## ajinfla

mikesp1 said:


> I dont find it funny that lots of people will buy these Behringer amps thinking (because of this thread) they are sonicaly as good as any other good home audio amps.


Hi Mike, while it is commendable that you want to save others from the poor "sound" of the Behringers, I doubt "lots" of people are going to rush out to buy one based on this thread. Plus, these are *your* human/fallible perceptions, based on your experience and expectations (unless of course, as an audiophile, you believe your perceptions are infallible and you are immune to bias??). That expectation>result loop was closed, as expected. But perhaps, someone who does _not_ expect/know "the Ep2500 will not blow them away with super high fidelity sound", will not "hear" what you have perceived. Works both ways you see.



mikesp1 said:


> This simply is not true, it is a rough amp with plenty of power for the money, but if you can not hear the difference in musicality between amps, you have some hearing problems.


It is "not true" for you. For your perceptions. For your uncontrolled, casual, "listening" experience. That, we can all agree on.
I'll respectfully suggest (again), that you research a bit about "hearing" and all that is involved. It goes far beyond the soundwaves/field impinging upon your ears, that you "heard".



mikesp1 said:


> If someone can point me to a good pro amp for home listening, i am willing to do the test, Behringer is end of story.


That would be tough to do if the thread was closed, unless you are suggesting PM? 
Btw, what you are doing is not a "test" per se, but simply casual, uncontrolled "listening" in the comforts of your home. Please be cognizant of the distinction.
You would also have to define maybe a price point or a sufficient "street rep/hype" point, etc., where an (pro?) amp becomes "good". The Behringer>load soundwaves are "good", but the CPU is saying (confirming) "bad".
It's the latter part that makes a recommendation dicey. Lots of pro amps, from lower $$ Crowns, all the way up to stuff like Lab-Gruppen (Audiophile $$$$, but dreaded "Class D"), etc.

cheers


----------



## ajinfla

MrAcoustat said:


> *Hi Mike like you i believe that some amps are MUSICAL and that some aren't, if you believe that it's possible to get a GOOD power amplifier with these kinds of power - 550x2 at 8ohms - 950x2 at 4ohms - 1250x2 at 2ohms - for $379.00 YOU DESERVE WHAT YOU GET. plain and simple, it may be good enough for home theater but for ME ME ME it ain't good enough NO PRO GEAR IS MUSICAL in life you always get what you pay for, at least 99% of the time.*


...and I (and science) agree with you 100%.
As you can read here: http://www.pnas.org/content/105/3/1050.abstract or for an audiophile synopsis, here: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/04/should-we-buy-expensive-wine/.
We are are all creatures beholden to our humanity. Well, except audiophiles of course.
(for audiophiles, the latter was said purely in jest, take no offense please)

cheers


----------



## mikesp1

ajinfla said:


> ...and I (and science) agree with you 100%.
> As you can read here: http://www.pnas.org/content/105/3/1050.abstract or for an audiophile synopsis, here: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/04/should-we-buy-expensive-wine/.
> We are are all creatures beholden to our humanity. Well, except audiophiles of course.
> (for audiophiles, the latter was said purely in jest, take no offense please)
> 
> cheers[/QUOTE
> 
> Well, you can't compare apples to oranges!


----------



## ajinfla

mikesp1 said:


> Well, you can't compare apples to oranges!


No one is. The CPU doesn't care if it's wine, watches or audio. You missed the point if you read either article.
Price (among other things) matters to perception. Our brains are hardwired that way.
The Patek doesn't actually tell "better" time than the Casio (in fact, may be worse). But which would you rather on your wrist?

cheers


----------



## JBrax

The Rangefinder that will be delivered Monday. Sorry just had to.


----------



## JBrax

Grr…autocorrect! Rangeman that is.


----------



## Sonnie

This is what I will say... if there is that noticeable of a difference between that Behringer and the Sunfire, then one of the other are faulty. Or perhaps, knowing Bob Carver, he designed that Sunfire to be a bit soft. Or perhaps you don't have the dip switches on the back of the EP2500 set properly... which is not uncommon, as the cartoons have been known to be incorrect.

Either way... I just posted my comparison... with A/B results and measurements between my XPR-5 and one of my EP2500 amps. Pretty interesting stuff that does well enough to prove to me the EP2500 I have is every bit as capable and musical as any other amp on the market. I won't stop there though... I will be testing several more amps to confirm my findings... but this is a good start.

*Home Amp vs Pro Amp - Emotiva XPR-5 vs Behringer EP2500*

And don't worry Jeff... this thread is not getting closed. :T


----------



## prerich

My I enter this conversation? I believe the assumed "facts" are very subjective indeed, measurements are absolutes and don't lie. I own the Behringer ep4000 myself (I use it for my subs), but I wouldn't hesitate using it for my Cornwalls. I just wish Behringer would make a 7 channel amp, that would let me get rid of three rack spaces  !!!! My audiophiles card was pulled when I stopped using a pre/pro or a receiver as a pre pro, and went to a PC as my pre/pro - it's also my only source. And yes, my system is very musical


----------



## mikesp1

QUOTE=prerich;663765]My I enter this conversation? I believe the assumed "facts" are very subjective indeed, measurements are absolutes and don't lie. I own the Behringer ep4000 myself (I use it for my subs), but I wouldn't hesitate using it for my Cornwalls. I just wish Behringer would make a 7 channel amp, that would let me get rid of three rack spaces  !!!! My audiophiles card was pulled when I stopped using a pre/pro or a receiver as a pre pro, and went to a PC as my pre/pro - it's also my only source. And yes, my system is very musical [/QUOTE]

So basicaly, you are using an 7 channel analog pc soundcard from within your noisy pc infirement to feed the amps.
Did you ever considered an aynchronous usb to spdif or to dac solution?

Like this:

http://www.mediaelectronics.be/shop/nl/572-sotm-dx-usb-hd-.html


----------



## MrAcoustat

*For the computer room this is what i'm using - computer card - PC - Rega Brio amplifier - Wharfedale nxt speakers - Imported Cd,s into Itunes lossless - this system is fine for a computer room BUT it's for BACKGROUND music NOTHING to do with high end music but that's for ME - ME - ME - i do insist on the me me me thank you.*


----------



## prerich

mikesp1 said:


> QUOTE=prerich;663765]My I enter this conversation? I believe the assumed "facts" are very subjective indeed, measurements are absolutes and don't lie. I own the Behringer ep4000 myself (I use it for my subs), but I wouldn't hesitate using it for my Cornwalls. I just wish Behringer would make a 7 channel amp, that would let me get rid of three rack spaces  !!!! My audiophiles card was pulled when I stopped using a pre/pro or a receiver as a pre pro, and went to a PC as my pre/pro - it's also my only source. And yes, my system is very musical


So basicaly, you are using an 7 channel analog pc soundcard from within your noisy pc infirement to feed the amps.
Did you ever considered an aynchronous usb to spdif or to dac solution?

Like this:

http://www.mediaelectronics.be/shop/nl/572-sotm-dx-usb-hd-.html[/QUOTE]Not quite....my PC is custom built (by me), and it's designed to be silent. My sound card is not the usual onboard solution (and yes I'm very familiar with the asynchronous USB solutions...I'm a member at computeraudiophile and audio stream). I'm using the Asus Essence ST/H6 (PCI version with a better clock) using burr-brown dacs. I personally prefer it to any USB DAC that I've heard (due to the 2 channel limitation of most dacs). When I do leave the Asus, my choices are between Lynx, Motu, or a exasound e18. Before you judge a PC audio system please know what they are running. :nono:


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## MrAcoustat

prerich said:


> So basicaly, you are using an 7 channel analog pc soundcard from within your noisy pc infirement to feed the amps.
> Did you ever considered an aynchronous usb to spdif or to dac solution?
> 
> Like this:
> 
> http://www.mediaelectronics.be/shop/nl/572-sotm-dx-usb-hd-.html


Not quite....my PC is custom built (by me), and it's designed to be silent. My sound card is not the usual onboard solution (and yes I'm very familiar with the asynchronous USB solutions...I'm a member at computeraudiophile and audio stream). I'm using the Asus Essence ST/H6 (PCI version with a better clock) using burr-brown dacs. I personally prefer it to any USB DAC that I've heard (due to the 2 channel limitation of most dacs). When I do leave the Asus, my choices are between Lynx, Motu, or a exasound e18. Before you judge a PC audio system please know what they are running. :nono:[/QUOTE]

*The important thing here is that YOU like it not ME not MIKE not PETER - PAUL or MARY but you. enjoy your computer.*


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## prerich

MrAcoustat said:


> *For the computer room this is what i'm using - computer card - PC - Rega Brio amplifier - Wharfedale nxt speakers - Imported Cd,s into Itunes lossless - this system is fine for a computer room BUT it's for BACKGROUND music NOTHING to do with high end music but that's for ME - ME - ME - i do insist on the me me me thank you.*


Yeah ...definitely background music. My system is viewable on several sites under prerich. I'm very familiar with your classic 2 channel system over at Whatsbestforum.com ....very impressive indeed. However, for my listening taste, high efficiency speakers work best (especially since most churches used them anyway  ). Don't be deceived my system is extremely clean ....and I'm not trying to get my audiophile card back...I'm just trying to enjoy my music. Oh FYI I'm using JRiver as my media player, convolutor with EQ filters from REW, along with acoustic treatments. It's not your average PC setup...my son may bring me a SotM from Korea, if t want to do a separate 2 channel ...but I'm good.


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## prerich

MrAcoustat said:


> Not quite....my PC is custom built (by me), and it's designed to be silent. My sound card is not the usual onboard solution (and yes I'm very familiar with the asynchronous USB solutions...I'm a member at computeraudiophile and audio stream). I'm using the Asus Essence ST/H6 (PCI version with a better clock) using burr-brown dacs. I personally prefer it to any USB DAC that I've heard (due to the 2 channel limitation of most dacs). When I do leave the Asus, my choices are between Lynx, Motu, or a exasound e18. Before you judge a PC audio system please know what they are running. :nono:


*The important thing here is that YOU like it not ME not MIKE not PETER - PAUL or MARY but you. enjoy your computer.*[/QUOTE]
I do  ! Enjoy your setup as we'll  ...like I said - your acoustats are very impressive.


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## prerich

mikesp1 said:


> QUOTE=prerich;663765]
> 
> Like this:
> 
> http://www.mediaelectronics.be/shop/nl/572-sotm-dx-usb-hd-.html


Wow!!!! I'd never pay that much for a SotM!!!! My son is in S Korea and can get them way cheaper than a grand USD!!!!!


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## Sonnie

Is this thread about amp recommendations or PC builds? :dontknow:

Ehhh... it has probably served its usefulness.


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## mikesp1

MrAcoustat said:


> Not quite....my PC is custom built (by me), and it's designed to be silent. My sound card is not the usual onboard solution (and yes I'm very familiar with the asynchronous USB solutions...I'm a member at computeraudiophile and audio stream). I'm using the Asus Essence ST/H6 (PCI version with a better clock) using burr-brown dacs. I personally prefer it to any USB DAC that I've heard (due to the 2 channel limitation of most dacs). When I do leave the Asus, my choices are between Lynx, Motu, or a exasound e18. Before you judge a PC audio system please know what they are running. :nono:


*The important thing here is that YOU like it not ME not MIKE not PETER - PAUL or MARY but you. enjoy your computer.*[/QUOTE]

Enjoy your system, i have two of these cards myself, pci and pcie version:T


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## prerich

Sonnie said:


> Is this thread about amp recommendations or PC builds? :dontknow:
> 
> Ehhh... it has probably served its usefulness.


sorry Sonnie my bad - I'm going to start a thread over in the PC area :T! I got on a tangent because of the arguments about amps soo much and brought my example into play...then someone made a comment about listening on a noisy PC and it went from there. My apologies to all...now back on task. I'd recommend the Crown XLS 2000 or 2500 excellent amps and low noise floor.


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## MrAcoustat

*I will try this one just for fun it's not very expensive and will probably not be hard to resale if i don't like it.*


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## mikesp1

MrAcoustat said:


> *I will try this one just for fun it's not very expensive and will probably not be hard to resale if i don't like it.*


Nice looking amp, looking forward to your impressions.


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## ajinfla

mikesp1 said:


> Nice looking amp


That helps!



mikesp1 said:


> looking forward to your impressions.


Me too. 

cheers


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## Sonnie

prerich said:


> sorry Sonnie my bad - I'm going to start a thread over in the PC area :T! I got on a tangent because of the arguments about amps soo much and brought my example into play...then someone made a comment about listening on a noisy PC and it went from there. My apologies to all...now back on task. I'd recommend the Crown XLS 2000 or 2500 excellent amps and low noise floor.


Not a real big deal. Good idea on posting in the PC area... we need more info on these kind of systems. Thanks!




MrAcoustat said:


> *I will try this one just for fun it's not very expensive and will probably not be hard to resale if i don't like it.*


I thought you had one of those big kingdaddy Classe Class A amps you were using.


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## MrAcoustat

mikesp1 said:


> Nice looking amp, looking forward to your impressions.


*
No Mike i was only joking.:heehee:*


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## ajinfla

Sonnie said:


> I thought you had one of those big kingdaddy Classe Class A amps you were using.


His sig says Chord, which if you like your audio bling/jewelry....









CPM-2600. Seems to be around 120/ch rms (8ohm), 170 (4ohm), 220 peak (4ohm). Using an SMPS 
The stats must be an easy load, despite their very low sensitivity.

cheers


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## Sonnie

Ahhh... ignorant me with the signature. I see now. I thought when he had posted that pic of the Classe earlier it was his. :huh:

Yeah... while nice looking (albeit silver) not particularly powerful with what appears to be minimal headroom and a lower noise ratio than what I would expect. They might be extremely conservative with their specs, yet I think I would feel much safer with the Crown or Behringer amp than that Chord... unless I just needed background music. Not only that... $6,500 :yikes: RUN!!! A pair of XPR-1 monoblocks would be a much wiser purchase.


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## AudiocRaver

Call me crazy. A good old Crown power amp that will crank out 400 w or so of power sounds great to me. Mine is the Xs500.


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## antoninus9

You need an inexpensive high current amp. Look for a used Harman Kardon Signature amp on Ebay. They made a 2 channel and a 5 channel version. As I recollect the 2 channel is around 200 watts, but it can drive almost a dead short. The HK reps used to tie a + and - lead to a pencil sharpened at both ends and crank the volume. It would split the pencil like a bolt of lightening struck it.

Those electrostats should work quite well with it.


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## mikesp1

Tomorrow i am going to pick up a h/k sinature 1.5.


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## ajinfla

Good for you Mike, let us know how it works out.


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