# Basic Video Cal help needed



## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

Hi guys. I am looking for basic video calibration help for my LCD TV. I have a 47LG50 [PDF] Been looking on the cal forums and there is a plethora of info on advanced cal. Does anyone have any links to basic calibration, ie, proper adjustment of the video settings, with links to any discs required, and the procedure? Also, I watch all my movies through a PS3. Thanks.


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## mechman (Feb 8, 2007)

Here are a couple:

How To Properly Set Up Your Display

DIY Display Calibration via CalMAN


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

My LG has "ISFccc" feature [Imaging Science Foundation - Certified Calibration Configuration] [PDF link to ISFccc]. I can't seem to find much on this. Do you know how it works and if it is worth exploring, or should I just manually set everything up as per the guides? Certified Calibration Configuration


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## mechman (Feb 8, 2007)

You should be able to do everything you'd need in one of the Expert modes.


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## tbaudoin (Mar 19, 2012)

mechman said:


> Here are a couple:
> 
> How To Properly Set Up Your Display
> 
> DIY Display Calibration via CalMAN


Great links....


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## tbaudoin (Mar 19, 2012)

When using a pattern disc for calibration or general content playback, do I want all sources and/or targets to be able to receive 0-255 rgb? Thanks, T


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## mechman (Feb 8, 2007)

16-235 for video.


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## Joel Barsotti (Nov 26, 2011)

tbaudoin said:


> When using a pattern disc for calibration or general content playback, do I want all sources and/or targets to be able to receive 0-255 rgb? Thanks, T


The trick is that you are always sending 0-255 (rgb or ycc), if it's 8 bit data, that's the range for 8 bits.

So the concern is where is the content is reference black at 0 or 16? If it's at 16, you still want to be able to pass 0-15 so you can get a good pluge pattern. White is even different. You shouldn't ever clip white, let it run all the way up to 255, all the time. Yes reference white is at 235, but that's deffined in YCC land where the values are 235, 128, 128. When you decode YCC to RGB there are all kinds of legal YCC triplets that produce R,G,B values above 235.

So it's really all about where the content is in the range, but you want to be able to transmit the full range all the time.


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## tbaudoin (Mar 19, 2012)

Great, that's been my thought, but got too many irons in play. Trying to focus on one at a time. Thanks, all stay at 0-255 all the time. Whether calibrating or playback. I assume this minimizes the appearance or actual crushing and blowouts from playing close to a cut edge. T


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## Joel Barsotti (Nov 26, 2011)

> Great, that's been my thought, but got too many irons in play. Trying to focus on one at a time. Thanks, all stay at 0-255 all the time. Whether calibrating or playback. I assume this minimizes the appearance or actual crushing and blowouts from playing close to a cut edge.


well what setting are you talking about.

range settings are all over the place and it's very easy to get them wrong. Some 0-255 settings mean taking the content from 16-235, clipping it and expanding 16->0. Some contract content taking 0 and remapping to 16.

This is why stand alone pattern generators are so nice, you have something reliable to check against.


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## tbaudoin (Mar 19, 2012)

Joel Barsotti said:


> well what setting are you talking about.
> 
> range settings are all over the place and it's very easy to get them wrong. Some 0-255 settings mean taking the content from 16-235, clipping it and expanding 16->0. Some contract content taking 0 and remapping to 16.
> 
> This is why stand alone pattern generators are so nice, you have something reliable to check against.


In both Denon 2310CI bd, and Denon 4310 CI. RGB range enhanced setting. I have two differenct displays I am playing with as well as numerous others for trial purposes. In general, I am just trying to be able to calibrate it, then playback via whatever source. So, maybe I just keep asking the question in an unconventional way. So, I have both Denons set to RGB 0-255. I am not sure the display has any setting (xs Sony from 2005 (first HDMI, that year the XBR model was still DVI). The color decoder is off and it is slowly dying, so it is a good test set, until I replace it. If I have the option on the display in addition to the AVR/BDP, how should they be set for calibration? Once calibrated, do I change it to 16-235 or not?

I think your answer was to keep it 0-255 all the time, but not sure. I realize there are no absolutes and in fact, there may be as many exceptions as designs. Outside my current knowledge base today. Good info to know as I run across various scenerios though.

Regarding pattern generators, I would love one, but the same questions would still apply in my thought. 0-255 for calibration or not. 16-235 for playback or not? 0-255 all the time, regardless, unless........

Thanks for your patience with me. T.


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## Joel Barsotti (Nov 26, 2011)

tbaudoin said:


> In both Denon 2310CI bd, and Denon 4310 CI. RGB range enhanced setting. I have two differenct displays I am playing with as well as numerous others for trial purposes. In general, I am just trying to be able to calibrate it, then playback via whatever source. So, maybe I just keep asking the question in an unconventional way. So, I have both Denons set to RGB 0-255. I am not sure the display has any setting (xs Sony from 2005 (first HDMI, that year the XBR model was still DVI). The color decoder is off and it is slowly dying, so it is a good test set, until I replace it. If I have the option on the display in addition to the AVR/BDP, how should they be set for calibration? Once calibrated, do I change it to 16-235 or not?
> 
> I think your answer was to keep it 0-255 all the time, but not sure. I realize there are no absolutes and in fact, there may be as many exceptions as designs. Outside my current knowledge base today. Good info to know as I run across various scenerios though.
> 
> ...


You probably want 16-235 all the time on the player, but you'll have to play around with it. You'll want the setting that allows you to see WTW and BTB (assuming you turn your brightness up high enough to see BTB).

I don't have any hands on experience with that gear and manufacturers are known to label things backwards, not implement things, your TV could have it's setting backwards, or may just clip ect....

I wish I could give you an answer. The reality is I can only give you the theory and you have to test your hardware to find out how it behaves. One truth is that the correct setting for calibration is the correct setting for playback.


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## tbaudoin (Mar 19, 2012)

Joel Barsotti said:


> You probably want 16-235 all the time on the player, but you'll have to play around with it. You'll want the setting that allows you to see WTW and BTB (assuming you turn your brightness up high enough to see BTB).
> 
> I don't have any hands on experience with that gear and manufacturers are known to label things backwards, not implement things, your TV could have it's setting backwards, or may just clip ect....
> 
> I wish I could give you an answer. The reality is I can only give you the theory and you have to test your hardware to find out how it behaves. One truth is that the correct setting for calibration is the correct setting for playback.


Have seen a bit of this, but maybe I better do a sanity check just in case. BTB/WTW. I was thinking seeing black levels below and white levels above without discoloration indicated I was seeing the full range. If I set the player at 12-235, wouldn't that generally impact the ablility to see below 16 and above 235? I assume you would leave a receiver at 0-255 in case I sent a PC signal through it (haven't really cared about this until now, but still focused on the calibration more than integration). I think, unless oddly labeled, picture has always been contrast, and Brightness has always been Blacklvl on all sonys I have owned. I don't even recall the number of them. I will have to say, none until my RPTV has ever hinted at dying. I still have a CRT 20" from somewhere around 1991 that still works great, and is a real interesting little turkey. It has the "feature" of when it gets popped by a power drop, it resets and comes on at half volume, with the cable setting reset. Try waking up to that in the middle of the night! IT will give you whatever nightmares you weren't having. AS they say, there is nothing quite like the first time:rofl2:


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## Joel Barsotti (Nov 26, 2011)

What does 16-235 mean?
What does 0-255 mean?

Do they mean clip to 16-235.
Does it mean take 0-255 content and compress it to 16-235?
Does it mean leave content alone?

Every manufacturer tends to name the control differently, or imply different intent with the control.
You may need to flip back and forth between settings on multiple pieces of equipment to get it right.

OTOH, typically they use the correct setting out of the box (but not every piece of hardware).

I wish I could give you a filet of salmon, but you're going to have to learn how to fish.


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## tbaudoin (Mar 19, 2012)

Uncle!

Guess I just can't seem to ask the question general enough to get your point. I am not trying to create a sheet of settings for all thing or the like or any sort. Simply, regardless of label of rgb range, when calibrating, if the black does not clip regardless of whether I set a setting at 0-255 or 16-235, if both let me see below black (say 15), then would I chose one over the other for calibration? Would I then leave it set where I chose to calibrate it either 0-255 or 16-235? I was thinking this was a foundational question, but it appears I am struggling to ask what I am trying to ask. Gotta know which fishing bait to use to catch the species I am after, but most all rods have eyes and most all bait has a hook. So whether a label is different, I realize clearly when I am playing with the contrast most days. T


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Joel Barsotti said:


> What does 16-235 mean?
> What does 0-255 mean?
> 
> Do they mean clip to 16-235.
> ...


WTW/BTB is in reference to how many steps your display is showing beyond 16-235. That is RGB rang has 255 steps of grey (0,black-through-255,white) HD uses 16-235 due to some antiquated bandwidth issues you don't need to care about. But because of how some pieces of equipment decode video you should set your display to match your pluge and white clip pattern (calibrate) but set the display to receive full range. For Sony that's super white on, panasonics set hdmi range for nonstandard, most other displays are right out the box.


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## tbaudoin (Mar 19, 2012)

rab-byte said:


> WTW/BTB is in reference to how many steps your display is showing beyond 16-235. That is RGB rang has 255 steps of grey (0,black-through-255,white) HD uses 16-235 due to some antiquated bandwidth issues you don't need to care about. But because of how some pieces of equipment decode video you should set your display to match your pluge and white clip pattern (calibrate) but set the display to receive full range. For Sony that's super white on, panasonics set hdmi range for nonstandard, most other displays are right out the box.


Thanks, part one solved. What about in bd and receivers? I should allow full through both as well right? Let the content control the stop point, not the source or something in the chain, right? This seems obvious to me, but sometimes the obvious eludes me. You were spot of with the HD comment and where I am in my learning curve. Thanks, T


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## Joel Barsotti (Nov 26, 2011)

rab-byte said:


> WTW/BTB is in reference to how many steps your display is showing beyond 16-235. That is RGB rang has 255 steps of grey (0,black-through-255,white) HD uses 16-235 due to some antiquated bandwidth issues you don't need to care about. But because of how some pieces of equipment decode video you should set your display to match your pluge and white clip pattern (calibrate) but set the display to receive full range. For Sony that's super white on, panasonics set hdmi range for nonstandard, most other displays are right out the box.


It wasn't a bandwidth issue, you still use 8bits to encode content in 16-235, their isn't a savings there.

It's a relic of analog, where you needed head room and foot room in the mastering processes. When filters are applied in the analog domain at different steps of the mastering process you need that extra range not clip the waveforms.

All of those questions are to imply that different manufacturers actually use the terms differently, so there isn't one goto answer.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Yes all parts should pass full range. Ideally you will calibrate each piece of the chain from the TV, then though the receiver, then your player. 

Remember your CableBox or DTV box have not picture control beyond resolution so setting the TV for the box first is best then you adjust the BD player for the display. 

If you had a generator and puck with software and your AVR and Player have picture controls you would follow the following sequence. 

1) tv calibrated with generator and software
2) attach display to AVR and calibrate the AVR with the generator and equipment. DO THIS WITH EVERY INPUT. 
3) attach the CableBox and make minor adjustments to the AVR's input using reference material on your DVR... I like to use food-network or discovery and HDnet if they still do test patterns late night. 
4) same with AppleTV or other Devices
5) lastly attach your BD player to the AVR and use a test disc to make any adjustments that the player allows. If you picture still needs minor adjustment on BD input then adjust the AVRs input. 

By following this flow you should get a very accurate picture with both TV and Movies


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Joel Barsotti said:


> It wasn't a bandwidth issue, you still use 8bits to encode content in 16-235, their isn't a savings there.
> 
> It's a relic of analog, where you needed head room and foot room in the mastering processes. When filters are applied in the analog domain at different steps of the mastering process you need that extra range not clip the waveforms.
> 
> All of those questions are to imply that different manufacturers actually use the terms differently, so there isn't one goto answer.


You are correct my bad


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## tbaudoin (Mar 19, 2012)

Fantastic on all explanations. That's what I was doing, but got derailed a bit in theory. I will review the thread again and let it sink in. I am playing with another set that let's me have settings for the Internet content separately and will do some browsing to find at least some basic patterns as well. As far as cable'd patterns, I am not aware of any on time Warner feeds, but have asked them about it. As far as adjustments to cable quality, my Denon receiver lets me have separate adjustments for each input, so I can adjust that signal really well, short of a separate video processor. That what I will be adding when I replace the primary display. Thanks for all the patience. T


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