# Speakers in the range of $5,000



## gtamayo (Jun 21, 2011)

Hi everybody! I've just bought an used tube amp And preamp Aronov. My Infinity speakers are no longer fit to this level and quality of amplification.

I have several options -and no possibility to go for a test elsewhere, so basically that is going to be a fair challenging purchase-. So, Revel Performa F32, Studio2 (I don't know the price range for those), PSB Synchrony One... Bowers&Wilkins 684 or 683.

An additional challange is to move to another technology: Martin Logan Vantage or Magnepan 1.7. I've never had electrostatic speakers, though I've heard some. To my taste, plain electrostatic need some subwoofer, that is why Martin Logan seems more appealing.

But I appreciate your advice on these decisions:

1) electrostatic versus box speakers? 
2) best speakers for tube amps in the range of 5k.

Thanks all! 

Giselle


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I truly could not be happier with my MartinLogan Vantages. You can get them for a nice price on Audiogon. You can also get a great price on the 10K Retail Summits that have a shocking amount of Bass. Go and listen to the current Summit X to see what I mean.

I also love Maggies and Revels. I would also include Focals and Dynaudio in your search as they are also fantastic. And Theil too.
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

gtamayo said:


> Hi everybody! I've just bought an used tube amp And preamp Aronov. My Infinity speakers are no longer fit to this level and quality of amplification.
> 
> I have several options -and no possibility to go for a test elsewhere, so basically that is going to be a fair challenging purchase-. So, Revel Performa F32, Studio2 (I don't know the price range for those), PSB Synchrony One... Bowers&Wilkins 684 or 683.
> 
> ...


While audiophiles might tell you tube amps are "better quality" the actual reality is that they can be extremely "hit or miss or miss or miss". SETs in particular are a general disaster 99% of the time, and even general tube amps can really hurt the sound quality of most speakers, especially anything with impedance fluctuations and average sensitivity.

We really need to know more about your tube amps, because they will likely be your number one system bottleneck.

For example, some very fine speakers in the sub-$5000 range include Revel F52s (you should be able to get them, just barely. They're a notable step up from the F32s. Studios are likely out of your price range, even used), Salk HT2-TLs, Philharmonic 3, and Pioneer S-3EX. I consider B&W speakers to be all hype, with no performance to back it up. Again, though even all of the above excellent speakers may not truly be tube friendly. If you're willing to go up to $6500, consider these:

http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_planetarium-alpha.html

In my opinion, even a $5000 budget will still benefit from adding multiple subwoofers. The bottom octaves are truly the most difficult to reproduce, plain and simple. If you focus on getting everything above subwoofer range handled by other speakers, you will reap the rewards of multiple subwoofer approach. Another extremely tube friendly, and very high quality speaker is the Geddes Abbey:

http://www.gedlee.com/abbey.htm

But it requires the multi-sub approach to get the best bass. You will find no shortage of praise for the geddes speakers on the internet. They're controlled directivity designs with a wide sweet spot, powerful dynamics, and no shortage of details. They're also very room/amp independant.

Now regarding electrostats/planars... I think they've got some huge positives and some large negatives, like other speakers. The positives include that much of the side wall reflections are virtually eliminated over much of the frequency range, leading to a dominant direct sound (and less need for treatments muddying up later reflections. Also, the rear wave can seriously add depth to the soundstage. Finally, these types of drivers tend to have extremely good phase response. What are the negatives? The upper mid and higher frequencies are "beamed", so if you move out of the sweet spot, the response becomes very audibly unbalanced. The rear wave can add depth, but only if you place the speakers far from the front wall - a good 5-6 feet for best detail extraction. Others have noted that some of the hybrid ones like the martin logans don't blend seamlessly to their built in subs (this may be a crossover issue more than an inherent design issue, but the fact is that there is a sharp shift from a dipole response to an omni response, which load the room very differently). They also tend to not be very sensitive and operate in very low impedances - a problem for weak little tube amps as dynamics are compromised. I like them, but I don't think they're right for a person with tubes. 

Personally, I think dynamic dipoles are the way to go... they reproduce the depth of an electrostat, but with wider dispersion. Most of them, though are active speakers. This does remind me of another excellent speaker which fits well into your price range and is also tube friendly... the Salk Archos:

http://www.salksound.com/archos open baffle - pricing.htm

It still uses an omnipole woofer section mated to the dipole mid so it won't likely sound as seamless as something like a Linkwitz Orion or Nao Note, but I think it's a better option than traditional electrostat/planars, for you at least.

Honestly, I don't think most speakers are right for people with tubes, if they want the speaker to sound as designed, rather than a random sound decided by load reactions. It's not that tubes can't be transparent. But most aren't, and the few that are transparent and not lacking dynamics, cost a good mortgage. In my goal up the "Ladders" for high fidelity, I kind of treat tubes as a "Snake"


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## gtamayo (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks! The tube gear are Aronov LS-960 tube amplifier with LS9600 preamp. I posted a thread on these to see if anyone knew about them, with just two answers. They are about 8years old, but were seldom used. I've tested them with the speakers I have, which are not in the same league as Revel, for example, and the difference in clarity and transparence was amazing.Given the fact that both units were $1,700 altogether, and that I live in a country where I can rarely hear different things besides Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon and Marantz, and that Jolida is the only brand with representation in Costa Rica, I decided to give these Aronov a chance. The guy that was selling them was not the owner, yet he is a friend and an expert, so anything bad that happens to those Aronov, he will help.

So, the decision to move to tubes, is because the most beatiful things I ever heard were from a Jolida 302 or Conrad Johnson ones. Solid state has its limitations to my ear, but of course, I do not have a priveleged ear however. I wish I'd have! So, nevertheless, it was a personal decision. 

Probably if I have the money and live in the USA, I would purchase the Duo Avantgarde that are on sale in Audiogon! 

I will take a look to other speakers you mentioned! 

Giselle

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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

If you have $5k to drop, you can do much better than the Bowers & Wilkins 684 or 683. The Revel Performa F32 is a great speaker for the money, but for $5g's you might as well step to the Performa F52. A good pair of Martin Logans will KILL that amp, they demand current the Aronov LS-960 cannot deliver.

GedLee is a top pick, but his build out times have increased to a minimum of 9 months, in his own words. You may wait a long time, and he has had some finish problems. I second the recommendation to go with Geddes student, Duke LeJuene of Audiokinesis. His speakers will be a perfect fit for your tubed gear, tube amps are generally what owners use to drive his speakers and what he uses to design them. If you can make the stretch for the $6500k Planetariums that EV posted, you may find that you never need another pair of speakers for many years... if ever again. Personally, I would even be happy with his $2900 Rhythm Prism. 

Duke has a very good reputation for taking care of his customers... and he is a Jolida dealer.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

tesseract said:


> If you can make the stretch for the $6500k Planetariums that EV posted, you may find that you never need another pair of speakers for many years... if ever again. Personally, I would even be happy with his $2900 Rhythm Prism.


Also, the Jazz Module comes in at $4500, as another option.

But I think the bass of four SPACED subwoofers (like the Planetariums) will likely sound cleaner and tighter than the bass of a single woofer and more than likely deeper as well. It's just the nature of bass inside rooms.



> GedLee is a top pick, but his build out times have increased to a minimum of 9 months, in his own words. You may wait a long time, and he has had some finish problems.


That's unfortunate to hear. The primary advantage his speakers have over the AK speakers with OS waveguides is mainly in the reticulated foam, which lets you play it even louder with less horn coloration. The AK speakers with the OS waveguides should have very low horn coloration already though. Considering some of the horns some people can live with, the AK stuff is likely to be a revelation. I still wish Duke used Geddes' patented foam though 

Both are sweet choices I would love to have in my HT, either way.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

GranteedEV said:


> Also, the Jazz Module comes in at $4500, as another option.


Duke does need to update his site, I'll drop him a line. He is a very busy guy and mostly relies on word of mouth and forums for sales. Anyone that is interested in his speakers should give him a phone call.

- The *Jazz Module* is out of production for now, the woofer used is no longer available. Version 2 may be on the horizon. Word on the street is the new *Prisma* is better.

- The price of the *Rhythm Prism* has risen to $2900 due to the increased prices of neodymium magnets like the Eminence driver uses. 

- The *stand-mount Rhythm Prizm*, the "twisted" bipolar *Strato Prism*, and bipolar *Cloud Chasers* are not listed, I am unsure of the availability.

- He is also working on a more affordable waveguided compression driver/12" woofer design, the idea is to break the sub $2k barrier.

- He even has a new *Thunderchild* bass guitar cabinet, it is making a stir in the music world.


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## Homethrstud (May 28, 2011)

I love my Paradigms but I do want to audition Golden Ear Triton twos.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Homethrstud said:


> I do want to audition Golden Ear Triton twos.


I really liked these speakers, even the smaller SuperSat 3 w/ForceField 3 sounded great.

I do feel that it is wasteful to include a sub into a tower speaker. If you are really that serious about bass, you should properly integrate subs with the mains and that means they won't be located in the same place. The Triton 2 isn't a full range speaker, and it's frequency response specification is intentionally vague.


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## gtamayo (Jun 21, 2011)

OK guys, back to reality! Audiogon is a wonderful place to purchase used equipment in the USA and Canada. Unfortunately, I leave abroad and shipping and taxes costs will make everything worth much more. Plus payment could be tricky, as I will have to have some background experience with PayPal.

My options at the moment are Martin Logan Electromotion (2,200) and Revel Performa F32 (3,600). Although I could evently go for PSB Synchrony One, that would be 5,000 plus shipping and taxes, much ,ore than the budget I have. 

I looked at the Audiokinetics, particularly appealing are the Prisma Alpha, but I don't have place for them in my fairly small living room.

So, what would you recommend?

Thanks!

Giselle

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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Giselle,
I love Martin Logan Electrostatic Models. Granted they are not for everyone and are much harder to drive than most other Speakers. If you have solid Amplification, the ability to place the Speakers at least 4 Feet (a little over a Meter) from the Back Wall, they are wonderful.

I love Revels and in truth, they will be able to play a bit louder than the EM-ESL's. They are not that easy to drive as well, but are not nearly as hard to drive as ESL Martin Logan's. Revels are so well engineered and are quite accurate. Some do not prefer super accurate Speakers as they can be unforgiving of poorly recorded and or poor quality Source Material.

The PSB's really strike a nice middle ground and the Synchrony One is truly one of the best Speakers I have listened to. You could always go with the lower priced Imagine Series. Also, I would look at/for Focals and Dynaudios. Focals are my personal favorite Box Speakers and are the ones most likely to make me switch back. The Beryllium Tweeter in their upper range is the finest Tweeter I have ever heard.
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

gtamayo said:


> My options at the moment are Martin Logan Electromotion (2,200) and Revel Performa F32 (3,600). Although I could evently go for PSB Synchrony One, that would be 5,000 plus shipping and taxes, much ,ore than the budget I have.


I am pretty convinced that a 60w tube amp will not suffice for powering any of the above speakers.


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## gtamayo (Jun 21, 2011)

EV, why? What makes you think they can't drive them? I understand both the Aronov amp and pre are pretty strong! Please expand on your comment!

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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Simply put, none is designed to work with tubes, unless we're talking 140+ watt VTL type tubes that weigh over 100lb each. Tubes are very inefficient and small tube amps just won't cut it for the average speaker.

Here are the manufacturer specs alone:

Revel F32 - 86dB/2.83v/m - 6.5 Ohms (nominal), 3.7 Ohms (minimum)
Martin Logan Electromotion - 91dB/2.83v/m - 6 Ohms (nominal), 1.6 Ohms (minimum)
PSB Synchrony One - 88dB/2.83v/m - 4 Ohms (nominal), 4 Ohms (minimum)

These are all average to difficult loads for speakers. The above does not even state impedance peaks. Because many tube amps have higher output impedance, the reaction with amplifier impedance peaks, including vent tuning and low-component crossovers, can cause tubbiness and general imbalanced frequency response. You really need speakers that resemble a resistive load with above average sensitivity or better.

You really want something with an impedance graph that's flat above 100hz and close to 8 ohms, like this $9000 speaker:










And you ideally want sensitivity over 90+db. Only the martin logan fits that criteria, but it has an impedance minimum of 1.6 ohms at the top of its passband, which means it's a geneerally current hungry speaker that wants real solid state power IE parasound.

It takes careful design and some sacrifices to make a speaker tube-friendly (and even harder to make it Single Ended Triode friendly). This is why I recommended the Audiokinesis stuff, along with the Gedlee and Salk Archos. They are true tube friendly speakers. Average load speakers will likely sound worse than they were designed to sound with 60w tube amps. Luckily, all three are designed by some of the finest minds in the industry (Duke Lejeune, Earl Geddes, and Jeff Bagby) so you know that any of those choices will be awe-inspiring. 

If the Audiokinesis are too large, strongly consider the Salk Archos. I think it'll be a fine choice especially if you give the back wave room to breath. It is an open baffle speaker with 94db sensitivity, a great sounding PHL midrange driver, a very good crossover designer in Jeff Bagby, and Jim Salk's crew constructing it to perfection. You may even be able to request a (admittedly more expensive) redesigned version with the outstanding Raal ribbon tweeter, if you really want an amazing speaker. (not that the current tweeter is not outstanding, but RAALs are by many considered the best tweeters in the world).


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## gtamayo (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks! However, I don't have that kind of money. I've heard the Aronovs with my humble Infinitys C336, tried Tchaikovsky, Rachmannivov, Verdi, Ravel, and popular spanish songs, and honestly, I liked what I've heard. Probably my ears are not trained to detect the tubeness you mentioned, but there were an incredible improvement when compared to my Yamaha "boxed" output.

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## gtamayo (Jun 21, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Giselle,
> I love Martin Logan Electrostatic Models. Granted they are not for everyone and are much harder to drive than most other Speakers. If you have solid Amplification, the ability to place the Speakers at least 4 Feet (a little over a Meter) from the Back Wall, they are wonderful.
> 
> I love Revels and in truth, they will be able to play a bit louder than the EM-ESL's. They are not that easy to drive as well, but are not nearly as hard to drive as ESL Martin Logan's. Revels are so well engineered and are quite accurate. Some do not prefer super accurate Speakers as they can be unforgiving of poorly recorded and or poor quality Source Material.
> ...


JJ, bringing the Imagine T Towers to Costa Rica, will cost about the same as the Revel F32. What would you recommend between the two?

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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

gtamayo said:


> JJ, bringing the Imagine T Towers to Costa Rica, will cost about the same as the Revel F32. What would you recommend between the two?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using HTShack


Hello,
If you have strong Amplification, I would get the Revels. I am a huge fan of both, but PSB's tend to be easier to drive.
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

gtamayo said:


> Thanks! However, I don't have that kind of money.


?

At $4500/pr, I was under the impression it was right in your budget.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Duke got back to me. He is super busy with the pro side of sound and acknowledges that his website needs updating. Best to visit his forums (he has two) and call with any questions. All the info I gave in my previous post was correct. Except for...

The Jazz Modules are available with a new woofer, and the crossover is done. :T


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## greggdrews (Dec 4, 2010)

On audiogon there is a pair of Focal 1037 BE towers for $5500. Everyone that I've heard raves about the BE tweeter. I have the 806v from them and absolutly love them. I can only imagine how much better these would be.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

greggdrews said:


> On audiogon there is a pair of Focal 1037 BE towers for $5500. Everyone that I've heard raves about the BE tweeter. I have the 806v from them and absolutly love them. I can only imagine how much better these would be.


Hello,
They are fantastic. My little brother has a pair in his ridiculous 2 Channel Rig. If they are nearby and or within your budget, an Audition is well worth doing.
Cheers,
JJ


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## greggdrews (Dec 4, 2010)

I was talking about those for him not me


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Gotcha. The OP does not live in the US so it complicates things like Audiogon Listings. My bad for the confusion.


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## jmschnur (May 31, 2011)

You might contact Roberto who lives in costa rica and is a Martin Logan expert about a used set of Vantages. 

He hangs out at the Martin Logan forum.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

jmschnur said:


> You might contact Roberto who lives in costa rica and is a Martin Logan expert about a used set of Vantages.
> 
> He hangs out at the Martin Logan forum.


Hello,
That is a great call. Roberto is a true Gentlemen and is quite passionate about ML. I will say that he always seems to advocate the newest ML release over an earlier Model, but as he is a Distributor I believe that is not to be entirely unexpected.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

For pure performance way beyond the $5000 price point, I would purchase a used in mint condition pair of Magnepan 1.6QR (NOT the 1.7) and have them Magnestand modified, $3400, and a pair of Rythmik F12 subwoofers, $1600. This speaker system will best loudspeakers that cost several tens of thousands of dollars.
http://www.indiespinzone.com/mag/mag4.html
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue37/magnestand.htm
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html

Some might say that the 1.6QR will not work with a 60 wpc tube amp, however, the Magnestand modification yields a 92dB/1w/1m loudspeaker and a consistent 4 Ohm load. I guess having only 8 Ohm taps could be a problem.


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## gtamayo (Jun 21, 2011)

OK guys, thanks a lot, particularly GrantED, Theseract and JJ. I know Roberto, Roberto is the one that sold me the Aronovs and incidently, he is offering the new ElectroMotion MLs instead the Vantage. And he is pretty sure that the Aronovs will drive these MLs. I do not know. However he offered to give me a test.

My budget is $5,000, but if I can get something cheaper but about the quality I need, the better. The reality is that I have to pay taxes on everything that is beyond $500, so basically, on everything. Plus transportation to Florida plus transportation to Costa Rica. Making calculations on $2,000 for example, it will increase the budget to almost $3,000. 

So, I will have to add some $500 per each $1,000. If this is so, the speakers must not be over $3,000 if I buy them independently. 

My near future is to decide on:

EM-ESL MLs ($2,200), Revel F32 ($3,600) and PSB Image T6 Towers (taking the risk of purchasing them without warranty, $1,900) or Imagine T Towers (same, $2,900).

Giselle

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## gtamayo (Jun 21, 2011)

OK guys, thanks a lot, particularly GrantED, Theseract and JJ. I know Roberto, Roberto is the one that sold me the Aronovs and incidently, he is offering the new ElectroMotion MLs instead the Vantage. And he is pretty sure that the Aronovs will drive these MLs. I do not know. However he offered to give me a test.

My budget is $5,000, but if I can get somethi


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

gtamayo said:


> OK guys, thanks a lot, particularly GrantED, Theseract and JJ. I know Roberto, Roberto is the one that sold me the Aronovs and incidently, he is offering the new ElectroMotion MLs instead the Vantage. And he is pretty sure that the Aronovs will drive these MLs. I do not know. However he offered to give me a test.


Do let us know how this works for you, and happy listening! 



> My budget is $5,000, but if I can get something cheaper but about the quality I need, the better. The reality is that I have to pay taxes on everything that is beyond $500, so basically, on everything. Plus transportation to Florida plus transportation to Costa Rica. Making calculations on $2,000 for example, it will increase the budget to almost $3,000.
> 
> So, I will have to add some $500 per each $1,000. If this is so, the speakers must not be over $3,000 if I buy them independently.
> 
> ...


If you have room for the Martin Logans, you have room for the $2900 tube friendly Audiokinesis Rhythm Prisms. I would be surprised if any of those speakers bested the Rhythm Prisms.


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## class a (Oct 22, 2010)

Check out the Triangle Speakers. The 30th Anniversary Comote's run about $1800 and have a 91db sensitivity which would be no problem for your tube amp. I also heard the $3800 Antal 91db too runing on a 50wpc LFD amp and it could go to earsplitting levels. The whole line sounds great and in typical French fashion excellent fit and finish.:T


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I would definitely go with the Vantages over the EM-ESL's. They are simply a good bit more Speaker, offer a 200 Watt B&O ICE Power Amplifier to drive the Aluminum, and play lower. The EM-ESL does not offer a Amplifier to drive the Woofer and uses a Paper Woofer. The Vantages retail for almost 3 times the price of the EM-ESL so they should be better.
Cheers,
JJ


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## gtamayo (Jun 21, 2011)

class a said:


> Check out the Triangle Speakers. The 30th Anniversary Comote's run about $1800 and have a 91db sensitivity which would be no problem for your tube amp. I also heard the $3800 Antal 91db too runing on a 50wpc LFD amp and it could go to earsplitting levels. The whole line sounds great and in typical French fashion excellent fit and finish.:T


Now, Triangle! I remember hearing the Antal with Jolida once! Très magnifique! I think they are a very good option! Thanks!

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## gtamayo (Jun 21, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I would definitely go with the Vantages over the EM-ESL's. They are simply a good bit more Speaker, offer a 200 Watt B&O ICE Power Amplifier to drive the Aluminum, and play lower. The EM-ESL does not offer a Amplifier to drive the Woofer and uses a Paper Woofer. The Vantages retail for almost 3 times the price of the EM-ESL so they should be better.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Roberto is in love with the EM-ESL's. There is no day where he sends information on them! 

I think I'll wait and make the test, and now that Triangle got also my attention, I will have more options to think about.

In the meantime, I am enjoying Variations on a theme from Paganini, with my C336 Infinities.... Can you believe that the B5 images makes a better separation and definition than the Classia towers? Too bad they lack of bass!

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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

gtamayo said:


> Roberto is in love with the EM-ESL's. There is no day where he sends information on them!
> 
> I think I'll wait and make the test, and now that Triangle got also my attention, I will have more options to think about.
> 
> ...


Again, he always seems to advocate what are the current offerings. Vantages have been discontinued in the past few Months so as a Distributor, he cannot get the Vantages anymore. Regardless, the Vantage is superior in every way to the EM-ESL as they should be considering the disparity in price.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jmschnur (May 31, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Again, he always seems to advocate what are the current offerings. Vantages have been discontinued in the past few Months so as a Distributor, he cannot get the Vantages anymore. Regardless, the Vantage is superior in every way to the EM-ESL as they should be considering the disparity in price.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I agree. If you can get a pair of vantages in your price range go for it.


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