# Center-Mains Matching



## trainCatcher (Nov 5, 2006)

I was wondering if people can give me some tips on improving the sonic match between the center channel and main speakers. I own the B&W LCR600 center and B&W 603S3 mains and drive them with a Yamaha HTR-5960. I can't help but feeling that the match is not always ideal. Vocals on 5.1 mixes sound slightly recessed when they come from the CC. For a while the mismatch was especially glaring when I was using Yamaha's self-equalization. The equalizer made movie CC dialogue much less intelligeable. 

How perfect do other folks find the match between their center and mains? Do you guys use different x-over settings for each set of speakers?


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

I use three identical speakers for L/C/R. Even then, room placement/acoustics preclude a perfect match.:unbelievable:

The usual culprits causing poor center/voice intelligibility with reasonably matched speakers are poor placement and poor room acoustics.

Kal


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Kal is right, you might want to play with placement and room treatment. When I installed my center channel speaker (matched with the sides) it sounded very dead with poor dialog. I installed some sound absorbing material behind and above the speaker which made all the difference in the world. It sounded like a different speaker. Hope this helps. Dennis


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> Vocals on 5.1 mixes sound slightly recessed when they come from the CC.


Does the Yamaha have a center channel equalizer? If so, a nudge at ~2 kHz might be the ticket.

Regards,
Wayne


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## trainCatcher (Nov 5, 2006)

Thanks for the replies guys! I've had the system for a while, but it's only recently that I've started to listen to 5.1 mixes on it. 

I'm hoping the problem is the setup. The CC sits on a tray inside a wooden entertainment center. The tray slides out ~ 10 inches, but there is no absorbing material behind it. I might give that a try. I'll try to post a picture later.


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## trainCatcher (Nov 5, 2006)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Does the Yamaha have a center channel equalizer? If so, a nudge at ~2 kHz might be the ticket
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


Wayne,

The Yamaha does have a CC equalizer, but it has limited manual control. I haven't tried playing with it myself, other than letting the YPAO tune it automatically. The auto tune sounded like ****. I'll take a look at the equalizer again, but I don't think I can change the preset equalizer frequencies and Q's.

-Mike


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> The CC sits on a tray inside a wooden entertainment center.


If that’s the case, your probably getting some upper bass-lower midrange emphasis from the cabinet. Try cutting some in the 100-200 Hz range, if the EQ will let you.

Regards,
Wayne


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## trainCatcher (Nov 5, 2006)

I'll take a REW trace this weekend to get a better sense of the difference between the center channel and the mains. Would you guys recommended running the center as large or small on the receiver?


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## trainCatcher (Nov 5, 2006)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> If that’s the case, your probably getting some upper bass-lower midrange emphasis from the cabinet. Try cutting some in the 100-200 Hz range, if the EQ will let you.
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


Hi Wayne,

I posted the pics of my home theater here. I can try stuffing some acoustic material behind the center. I also haven't tried plugging the rear port on the center. 

-Mike


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Hi Mike, Looking at the pictures I would have to say that you biggest issue may be caused by the placement of the center speaker as you will get some strange harmonics caused by the entertainment center. Have you tried placing the center channel speaker on top of the Entertainment center and angeling it down slightly just for a test?


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## trainCatcher (Nov 5, 2006)

No I have not, but that sounds like a good idea. Thanks!


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

trainCatcher said:


> I'll take a REW trace this weekend to get a better sense of the difference between the center channel and the mains.


It may be easier to simply pan a pink-noise signal from one to the other. You will hear the differences or not.

Kal


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

Frequency response (i.e. SPL) isn't the only thing that will affect how well a center matches the mains. Sometimes the SPL is the same, but it still sounds different. At that point, you either need to figure out what's making it sound different (e.g. reflections off an entertainment center) or get new speakers because they will just sound different.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

Another thing to look at is your DSP settings on the Yammy...
There are several choices of Theater Mode...General, Sci-FI, Adventure etc..and also speaker position in relation to room size...delays mainly..
I have found that if these are not set correctly, then voices particularly can sound withdrawn and indistinct..


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Josuah said:


> Frequency response (i.e. SPL) isn't the only thing that will affect how well a center matches the mains. Sometimes the SPL is the same, but it still sounds different.


Agreed. But if it doesn't sound different, why bother measuring?

Kal


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## imbeaujp (Oct 20, 2007)

Hello, It is difficult to have a CC sound perfect. I think that CC sounds diffrent from L and R channel because they are not in the corner like the L and R speakers (not the same reflexions). Acoustic panels and some EQ should resolve this. Your HT cabinet should be part of the problem because it causes sound reflexions that could boost some frequency. To put the CC on the top is a good suggestion. 

Good luck !


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## trainCatcher (Nov 5, 2006)

Kal Rubinson said:


> It may be easier to simply pan a pink-noise signal from one to the other. You will hear the differences or not.
> 
> Kal


I definitely hear a small difference, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly what it is. I don't have a trained ear. 

If I use the built in Yamaha equalization, I can't really tell if I'm getting any closer to an equal match. Then again the Yamaha equalizer filters are fixed at 100, 300, 1k,3k,and 10k.


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## trainCatcher (Nov 5, 2006)

Prof,

I usually listen in Straight mode, which I think has the effects turned off. I used to think some of the DSP effects sounded cool, like Vienna Hall, but now I find them distracting. 

-Mike


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

trainCatcher said:


> I definitely hear a small difference, but it's hard to pinpoint exactly what it is. I don't have a trained ear.


I almost always hear a small difference even with identical speakers but successful EQ (e.g., Audyssey) minimizes it.

Kal


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

This is what makes this hobby fun, finding the best sound from your system. I think if you will keep experimenting with different levels, eq's, speaker placement, sound absorbsion, etc, you will eventually find the right combo. 
I myself have been extreemly pleased with my setup especially when I added a Denon recv'r that has Audessey incorporated with it. It, so far, has given me the most natural sound I have heard on my system.
I did have a Yammie before and like the Adventure mode in my HT room. But, I didn't use it's internal setup to align my speakers. I found it more accurate to use the SPL meter and test tones. Keep at it. Dennis


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## trainCatcher (Nov 5, 2006)

Kal Rubinson said:


> I almost always hear a small difference even with identical speakers but successful EQ (e.g., Audyssey) minimizes it.
> 
> Kal


Kal,

That is very interesting. I just tried listening more carefully to the white noise again and there is difference my L and R speakers, too! The right speaker sounds slightly "lower" than the left. The center channel is "higher" than both. It could be due to my room. The right speaker is very close to a coach. I won't have time to investigate further until the weekend. 

-Mike


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## trainCatcher (Nov 5, 2006)

Thanks for the encouragement Dennis! yeah, this is hobby is a lot of fun. Audyssey sounds pretty cool. I got a long HT upgrade path, but eventually I hope to have a receiver with Audyssey built in.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

trainCatcher said:


> Kal,
> 
> I just tried listening more carefully to the white noise again and there is difference my L and R speakers, too! The right speaker sounds slightly "lower" than the left. The center channel is "higher" than both.
> -Mike


This is one reason why a 1/3 octave eq on all channels is ideal but this requires outboard amplification. Some receiver manufacturers like Onkyo and Denon have built in separate equalization for all channels but even these fall well short of a real 1/3 octave eq. No room is perfect, in an ideal situation you would find that your mains would sound identical with pink noise (at least if they are good quality speakers) but room acoustics will play havoc with the frequency response of even the best systems. In an ideal situation all three fronts should be the same but its not easy to buy just one speaker when they are sold in pairs. 
Carpet, hardwood flooring, curtains, furniture and even the shape of walls and ceilings make a huge difference.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> This is one reason why a 1/3 octave eq on all channels is ideal but this requires outboard amplification. Some receiver manufacturers like Onkyo and Denon have built in separate equalization for all channels but even these fall well short of a real 1/3 octave eq. No room is perfect, in an ideal situation you would find that your mains would sound identical with pink noise (at least if they are good quality speakers) but room acoustics will play havoc with the frequency response of even the best systems. In an ideal situation all three fronts should be the same but its not easy to buy just one speaker when they are sold in pairs.
> Carpet, hardwood flooring, curtains, furniture and even the shape of walls and ceilings make a huge difference.


True, although I would prefer a parametric EQ to any fixed F/Q EQ. 

Kal


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

trainCatcher said:


> Prof,
> 
> I usually listen in Straight mode, which I think has the effects turned off. I used to think some of the DSP effects sounded cool, like Vienna Hall, but now I find them distracting.
> 
> -Mike


Mike,
I use the "General" setting with no additional DSP added for movies..I find this gives the best "theatre" feel for most movies..
The Straight mode is generally recommended for music listening..


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> In an ideal situation all three fronts should be the same but its not easy to buy just one speaker when they are sold in pairs.


This is one thing that has always amazed me...
With all the increasing interest in HT over the years, most speaker manufacturers stiil only sell speakers in pairs!!:scratch:
If you've got bags of money, then fine..You just buy another pair and keep one as a spare, but for the average Joe it's a seperate centre speaker (usually a horizontal type) that doesn't match tonally with the other speakers..as has been mentioned here..


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Prof. said:


> Mike,
> I use the "General" setting with no additional DSP added for movies..I find this gives the best "theatre" feel for most movies..
> The Straight mode is generally recommended for music listening..


JUst curious. What do "general" and "straight" do to distinguish themselves from each other?


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Prof. said:


> This is one thing that has always amazed me...
> With all the increasing interest in HT over the years, most speaker manufacturers stiil only sell speakers in pairs!!:scratch:
> If you've got bags of money, then fine..You just buy another pair and keep one as a spare, but for the average Joe it's a seperate centre speaker (usually a horizontal type) that doesn't match tonally with the other speakers..as has been mentioned here..


I completely agree. I am fortunate in dealing with manufacturers directly and, even so, I usually have to wheedle the 3rd speaker out of them.

Kal


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

The "Straight" setting on the Yamaha's bypasses the DSP control so no emphasis is placed on the reproduced sound, which is what most music lovers prefer..
The "General" setting mainly utilizes the DSP to incorporate added delays for surround sound with movie producing devices..

I should add that the various modes that are available on Yamaha receivers, also increase reverberation and additional delays as well.


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

Kal Rubinson said:


> Agreed. But if it doesn't sound different, why bother measuring?


Well, I guess that's my point, inversely stated. It seems this thread went in the direction of trying to use EQ and DSP settings and measurements to figure out why the speakers do sound different to the OP. But maybe they're just always going to sound different even if you can get their frequency responses to exactly match.

Has the OP tried listening to the two in the same location and same channel (i.e. signal) to see if they sound the same then?


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## trainCatcher (Nov 5, 2006)

Josuah said:


> Has the OP tried listening to the two in the same location and same channel (i.e. signal) to see if they sound the same then?


Not yet. I'll give it a try this weekend.


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