# Summing



## immortalgropher (Feb 16, 2010)

So, I don't know much about summing but I do read a bit about "summing boxes" is this just a different term for outputting or something? Similar to mixing through aux busses or something?

Can someone make it clear for me the objective of summing and what it's benefits are?


----------



## bantam (Oct 25, 2009)

Sure,
Summing as in summing box is short for analog summing. It is used as an alternative to mixing in the box i.e.letting your daw mix your tracks together. you could for example have 8 mono tracks that you want to mix. you could mix them in your daw and bounce a stereo track or you could output each mono track into a summing box that acts as a line level mixer with no level or pan controls (this is done in the daw).

so why would anyone do this. well, same reason folks like to mix on analog consoles.. high headroom and no bits 'lost' by digital mixing. there is typically a makeup gain section too that can add color to the stereo signal as well. this is good for a hybrid approach to mixing. automation and recall in the box but analog signal path, mixbus, and color out of the box. i just use a console and get the same effect but its not nearly as spacesaving as a summing box. 

the dangerous dbox and black lion audio pm8 are both excellent


----------



## chonc (Jun 9, 2009)

Like I've said in other posts, I think that the weak sound of mixing Inside the box comes more of adding signals digitally and less from the DSP (plugins).

The sound and design of a lot of high end plug-ins has really pushed the limits in audio quality. Only the very best (and expensive) outboard gear surpasses a great plug-in.

So, my theory (and not only mine) about why a mix outside the box sounds better than a mix inside the box is the actual signal digital summing.

The workaround like bantam states is mixing in stems (so that you don't have to share the headroom of the vocals with the one of the drums for example) and mixing it outside the box, with a line mixer or summing box.

I've used 2 SSL's X-Rack 4-channel input modules then going through the stereo bus compressor module. It's a bit pricey, but a lot less than having a medium/large format console, and it does wonders for your mix!


----------



## immortalgropher (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm getting more interested in purchasing a summing box...however all I've got is an mbox 2 mini, so what would you guys suggest for me? I mix through busses one for drums, guitars, etc.

The more I'm trying to understand about summing the more it's becoming clear to me that all a summing box is is an analog path to keep that analog sound in a digital workstation.


----------



## ngarjuna (Mar 29, 2010)

Unless you can afford something fancy I wouldn't bother. My personal view is that it's not "analog summing" in and of itself that people prefer the sound of but rather the subtle (and beautiful) harmonics that you get out of a high end analog summing box.


----------



## spacedout (Dec 17, 2007)

I believe I once read in a Sound On Sound article that the supposed benefits of analogue summing are equally achievable by sending the entire mix through a quality piece of analogue hardware e.g. a stereo compressor, since all that's added is analogue distortion in any case (obviously, nice-sounding distortion, but distortion nevertheless). Could be wrong though...


----------



## chonc (Jun 9, 2009)

ngarjuna said:


> Unless you can afford something fancy I wouldn't bother. My personal view is that it's not "analog summing" in and of itself that people prefer the sound of but rather the subtle (and beautiful) harmonics that you get out of a high end analog summing box.


I agree if you are going to do the stem mixing/analog summing dance you're way better off with a high end line mixer or summing box. You do not only get rich harmonics that are pleasing to the ear, but your headroom also gets better, which is very important when summing different signals together.

The thing with the mbox mini is that I don't think you have too many independent outputs to do a stem mix to get the most benefit from summing signals in the analog realm.

Also, Spacedout is right: you get the analog "warmth" by processing you mix with a nice piece of analog equipment, but you are not summing the signals together in the gear you're using. The benefit of a summing box (or my theory of it anyway) is that if you do a separate stem of different instruments (Drums, Guitars, Bass, Singer, for example) you have a better digital "resolution" for each stem, and then if you do an analog mix of all these stems you get a richer tone because de mix is happening in an electric fashion, as opposed to a series of number calculations to deliver a representation of two or more signals mixing together.


----------



## immortalgropher (Feb 16, 2010)

Well do they just make stereo boxes? I could at least run stereo mixes through one. That was kinda what I was thinking of doing anyway, just add it at the end.


----------



## maikol (Nov 7, 2008)

AstralPlaneStudios said:


> Well do they just make stereo boxes? I could at least run stereo mixes through one. That was kinda what I was thinking of doing anyway, just add it at the end.


Do you mean just a stereo machine that you would send your miw through to get that "analog character"?

That does exist, in a large variety of ways.

EL's Fatso for example adds harmonics and tape saturation simulation.
Can't reckon at the moment, but there are others...


By the way, I haven't tried the last versions of software DAWs, so I couldn't say for sure I'd dislike their sound today regarding summing.
But, when I was thinking about how I would like to work at the mixing stage, I prefered the large format analog mixer way, because at that time their summing was really superior to what DAWs could do, but also because I really like the comfort it gives while mixing. And, there's what you can do with good analog EQs, and compressors, which at that time (again I haven't made a shootout since several years) seemed totally unusable in the plugins world.

And then of course there'e the "WOW" factor that a big desk always creates on customers!


----------



## tehguit (Jul 19, 2009)

To me analog summing is multiple sources, not just a stereo out.

I'm in the process of designing and budgeting for the B room at my studio.

A room has a SSL 4056 so thats our "summing box"... or just mixer in general.

But the room i'm designing will have a Avid Omni, so i'm slightly limited output wise.

I'll be running a stereo drum buss into a API 2500, Guitar Buss into a pair of LA3A's and everything else just bussed together and levels set in PT. From there the 6 stereo outputs will be going into a Black Lion Audio PM8, personally i would actually prefer to have a vocal buss as well, but beggars can't be choosers and an omni is 4 grand cheaper for a convenience that i don't "need" and its more just how i personally work.

From the PM8 i'll be dumping it into a SSL buss comp, Kush Audio Fatso, Kush audio Clariphonic eq thingy, Might build a pair of pultecs and strap that across whatever needs it, maybe the master buss.

So with all that combination, that should be enough analog processing for people who don't want to use the SSL.


BTW anyone who's on PTHD, you need to check out HEAT! That thing is amazing! Its not even subtle, things just sound better.


----------

