# The Garage Theater



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

This journey started for me about 25 years ago, with the latest chapter starting about 6 years ago, in my current home.

I'll try to summarize my current build, and what's happening next.

I would love advice, recommendations, etc, which is why I will share as much detail as possible (mostly visual). It makes it much easier to understand it, that way....


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

This is how it started. A detached garage on a 1920's house. There was no way we were going to drive a modern car to the back of the lot and into this cramped garage on a daily basis. On the other hand, it was perfectly isolated by a very large infinite air space from the rest of the living space -- and the neighbors!


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

First things first: Fantasy sketches....


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

At this point, all we've really done is yank out some of the old shelves and cabinets, and (important!) had the old concrete slab replaced.

LESSON #1: A traditional garage concrete floor is sloped for run off. YOU DONT WANT THAT in a home theater (or, really, any domestic room). But I wasn't smart enough to know that's how they would pour the floor, so I wasn't smart enough to tell them not to.

In the end, the building itself was so unsquare (80+ years of settling will do that) that it wasn't a complete disaster since everything had to be custom measured and plumb was never the same as what gravity wanted, but it was a miss, and a lesson learned --

-- and it would have made the whole "room within a room" easier to keep level, plumb and square.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Next: Time to clear the old drywall off, and check out the status of things.

The good news is that redwood last fovere so things were structurally okay.

But the electrical was not ideal (it would all have to be replaced). There were plants growing through one wall, due a neighbor's untended vines. There was some nasty insulation, ravaged by time and rodents. Etc. Etc.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

And then it was time to start framing the space.

First, killing one of the garage doors and turning it into a people door. Much more civilized -- especially since I got some friends to help!


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

And then the start of the framing.

The general concept was "a room within a room". 

It got a little complicated in some places, notably with the cross beams in the rafters of the garage. If we had simply made the roof lower than them, we would have had a room that was under 7 feet in height. NO GOOD. 

So we went with a modified concept, where we built around them -- and the end result was that it looks like beams running through the roof of the room. Not bad. Rather proud of that solution, in fact.

Less clearly a win: Instead of just using the max space in the garage, which would have resulted in an essentially square room about 16' on each side, we carved out a space about 12' x 16' to get some rectangular-ness to the space -- thinking it would help with acoustics, and that the space outside the theater space would be a nice ante-rooom -- at first for a little exercise space, and the gear, and later (much later) for a lobby. I call this not clearly a win because I do feel a little space challenged into the room.  

Not a win at all: The internal door. Well, the position is not too bad. But I made two follow on mistakes: I did not put the screen wall near the door -- which means the door is near the seats -- which means we that valuable space that could have been used for seats was needed for walking space. And the other mistake with the door: It opens INTO the theater space. Doh! The other direction, while non standard perhaps, would be far more space friendly inside it.

(Follow on lesson learned from earlier: The sloped nature of the concrete slab meant that the door could NOT be hung plumb because it would run into the sloped floor. Ugh! Of course, having it open the other direction would have solved that, too.)

I'll post photos in batches below, a bit later, illustrating this phase.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

And one of the first signs of the future...the wires from the house (ie, ethernet, coax, etc) coming out of the wall, from a conduit that runs under the yard.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

And the framing for the rest of the room's walls, including painting the old walls (exterior walls) with primer, adding spray foam to seal things, using flashing vapor barrier under the framing, padding places where metal met metal (like the simpson strong ties), etc.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

And then those pesky ceiling beams. You can see where I would have liked to have put the ceiling.

And that I ran the main ceiling joists at that level.

I need to dig up the photos of what ACTUALLY worked -- to build something almost "around" the old structure, and not touch the new one at all. The contractor I hired to teach me framing and do a significant amount of the heaving lifting and work at this stage thought I was CRAZY at first, but gradually understood to the point where he has great ideas about how to achieve the decoupled goals in this odd situation.

You may wonder why I bothered to try to do it this way, given that I wasn't attached to a living space or sleeping space nor sharing a wall with a neighbor. But my goal was isolation from the outside, in addition to keeping sound from escaping. It mostly worked: Even at full tilt, if you are outside the garage, it just sounds like something faint in the distance. And when inside, if you have nothing playing, you'll not hear the outside world unless something is running a combustion engine very loud and very close.


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

One advantage to the door opening inward... You can do a double door and have another door opening outward to seal the room better for sound leakage. I am also doing a garage to HT conversion right now, so I will be following your thread to see what I can learn. :T


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

ellisr63 said:


> One advantage to the door opening inward... You can do a double door and have another door opening outward to seal the room better for sound leakage. I am also doing a garage to HT conversion right now, so I will be following your thread to see what I can learn. :T


That's very true -- if I cared about sound leaking into the rest of the garage. :bigsmile: 

In my case, I don't, since the garage is not connected to any other structure, and outside the garage, you have that second door (the exit to from the garage) which pretty much kills any transmission. 

So for my tradeoff (easier to get around the room) an outward facing door would be preferable. In fact, so preferable that I am considering ripping it out and flipping it! :doh:


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Next up, running wires.

I wanted to achieve a few things:

Future proof as much as possible. So this meant running five or six separate 20amp circuits in the room. That way, I could separate things like the projector from the subwoofer from the space heater from the power recline chair from the electric screen from the lights on a fader from the lights not on a fader from the blah blah blah. No, I didn't plan to have all that stuff in there, but why the not spend an extra 100 bucks to run separate lines from the subpanel in order have options down the road?

I also ran lots of low voltage wire. And I am learning now I should have run even more. I ran drops for 7 locations. In each location I ran thick speaker wire, two coax, one XLR. This means I could run all active speakers in the room. And seven subwoofers. Or all passive speakers. Etc. I ended up using stuff in creative ways, such as I have had a turntable in the room, but I needed to get the line level out from the turntable pre-amp, to the speaker amp in the equipment rack outside the room. Well, there come a couple of XLR drops to the rescue -- balanced turntable audio safely attended to. Or, no matter where a sub should be placed, there's a coax/RCA or XLR output within a few feet.

What else should I have run? Probably twice as much high level speaker cable. It's relatively cheap, and there have been a few times where it would have been interesting to biamp or experiment with ab/ing between speakers, etc. But for the most part, is has worked out well.

There is an "escape valve" in that I have an open attic space above the room, and could run more cables up there and fish them down into the walls without major surgery. But I haven't resorted to that, yet.

And, of course, whenever possible (which was almost everywhere) I ran power and audio in separate places. Typically the power is run around the room laterally, and audio was run in the rafters and then down the wall. That didn't work perfectly with the overhead lights, but I think I managed to have only one 90 degree intersection and that has not proved problematic.

I ran two lighting circuits to two different switches. So far I have just used the can lights with spots in them, and the others remain unused. That's okay. There are also outlets in the ceiling. Definitely one circuit just for the projector. And some near the screen wall -- which would have been useful if I ever wanted a retractable screen -- or moved the projector to another location.

About the projector "circuit". It's actually got a male inlet plug in the equipment area outside the room, that lets me run the projector off a AV grade UPS device. In addition to the obvious benefit of being able to power down the projector nicely if the power to the house goes out, it also regulates the voltage -- which I believe keeps sensitive or finiky gear (read "JVC projector") happier. It may be a placebo. 

(Aside: Having the AV grade UPS in there is nice too for firmware updates or not losing recordings on the DVR due to a power hiccup.)

LESSONS LEARNED HERE? Well, for one, run more speaker level wire. Other than that, don't be afraid to terminate! I bought nice face plates etc for the wires, and then told myself "all those extra terminations and connection points are just additional potential points of failure, and might impact the signal a little". What I really should have said is: I'm too lazy to do this part cleanly, now -- and in the future, so I'll forever have slightly ugly wiring....

Well, we'll get to that part of the story, later, as I am embarking on version 2.0 for this room.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

And then we started in on the insulation. Didn't go with the pink stuff because I had the impression (probably just marketing) that this stuff was slightly less toxic but the same price. Who knows.

Don't forget the simple things like can lights that can be put up against insulation, etc, otherwise at this stage you are taking a couple days to build boxes around your cans -- no fun. 

While there were several earlier milestones (new floor, ripping the old garage apart, framing the build, putting in wires) once the insulation went up, the feeling and sound of the space changed in a dramatic way.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Okay, so you remember those structural beams in the outter structure, the garage, that got in the way of having a nice regular height room? 

They turned into good places to run wire.

 

Here is the framing we did around them.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Next up, drywall!


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Drywall is another big milestone. And putting blue tape on the walls and temporary chairs on the floor really gives you your first taste of the space. Yes, it does not sound right yet, and look right yet, but still, it's a glimpse. 

Maybe I took it too far by hooking up some powered monitors! At least I resisted putting the projector in there (NOOOOOO, not among all that construction dust!!!).

If you can, hire an expert for the drywall. Yes, if you are being a stickler, you will have to educate them about how to hang it and how to mud it, for acoustic perfection. But, especially at the mudding stage, an expert is going to get much better results super fast. 

YMMV.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

And then the paint. 

Black seems like the hardcore, perfect choice.

After having lived with it for some time, I am not so sure! I didn't get the ultimate perfect, flat black. I just got the flat black that was easy to get at the local hardware store. So I may not be getting the full effect of a flat black room.

And don't get me wrong, it is very dark!

But I think were I to do things over again, I might do dark gray on the walls, and save black for the ceiling and screen wall -- and trim/panels in black or gray, depending on location.

In fact, in "theater 2.0" (tm) that may be where I go. Not sure yet.

---

ANOTHER LESSON LEARNED: In addition to perhaps not going ALL BLACK throughout the room -- which sort of goes against conventional wisdom for a hardcore space -- I will say I have to agree with another conventional wisdom idea that I did NOT follow: Carpet.

Everyone does wall to wall low pile carpet with the biggest thicket pad under it that they can stand. I figured I would be classy and do a hardwood floor and use area rugs. FAIL. Well, I mean, it has worked and does work but is pretty much a waste and is lost to the eye since I have worked so hard to cover it with area rugs.

I don't know that I will install wall to wall carpet as part of theater 2.0, but if I were starting from scratch on a dedicated room in the future, I would not choose to add hardwood! I would spend the money on good carpeting instead.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

While all this is going on inside the theater, outside the theater in the anteroom, the equipment rack was coming together. Yes, could have done the clean and cool thing and gotten a traditional rack from one of the big vendors. 

But I didn't. At this point in the process, my budget was getting stretched, and for a fraction of the price of a mid atlantic kind of rack, I could get a double tall wire rack at a kitchen store -- which had great ventilation, adjustable shelves, wheels on the bottom, and fit most gear very well.

Funny to look at this now! HD-DVD, HTPC, a traditional DVD player! Blu-ray didn't exist at the time. My how things have changed.

--

The other end of the anteroom was, for a time, a workout space, with a treadmill facing an old tube TV on the wall. Later it became the DVD and blu-ray library, and storage.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

And then the money shot.... hanging the screen, hooking up a few speakers and the sub, throwing some panels around to tame the room a little, pulling in some furniture from elsewhere in the house for temp seating.

Okay okay, it's all super ugly! And you can see I was already making notes with painter's tape about where I needed to mask the screen. It was a 10 foot wide 2.35:1 stewart screen and while that seemed really cool for a 12 foot wide room, it was actually too big -- at least, in terms of fitting speakers on that wall, too.

In theater 2.0, I am adding a AT screen, that is 8 feet wide, on a false wall, and I have got the Stewart screen up for sale. Strangely, I guess it must be too big for most other people, too, since no one has bought it yet!

Yes, the eagle eyes among you will note that the projector is the classic Sony Pearl, awesome bang for buck in its day.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Next: Building a riser, for a back row of seating, putting real furniture in the room, adding more effective paneling from GIK, and trying out many different speaker combinations!


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

What was the time frame from removing the original drywall to completion?


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

:dontknow:

Define "completion".


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

But seriously, from first blush "let's tear it down" to "the drywall is up and painted" it was a bit more than six months.

Could have been quicker if I paid for more help, or took more time off work, of course.

Add in building the riser, doing treatments, getting the furniture a bit better in order, etc etc, and you are closing in on a year.

And of course the tweaking never stops (for me). 

But in my head and when people ask how long it took, I say I spent about a year putting it together.


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

nathan_h said:


> But seriously, from first blush "let's tear it down" to "the drywall is up and painted" it was a bit more than six months.
> 
> Could have been quicker if I paid for more help, or took more time off work, of course.
> 
> ...


Thanks, You were posting up everything so fast I figured it had been completed for a while... I am just at the putting up the insulation stage and was trying to get an idea how long it would be till it is ready for my seating... We usually only work on it one day a week but when the weather is bad (as it has been we get a lot more days to work on it).


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

ellisr63 said:


> Thanks, You were posting up everything so fast I figured it had been completed for a while... I am just at the putting up the insulation stage and was trying to get an idea how long it would be till it is ready for my seating... We usually only work on it one day a week but when the weather is bad (as it has been we get a lot more days to work on it).


Depending on whether you drywall / mud yourself or hire it out, makes a big difference (unless you are an expert already!). 

Seems like a couple of amatuers can drywall a room to the point of painting it in five to ten days. A professional crew will do it in a day.

Depending on what you are doing for trim (molding) etc, that can add some time, too.

Here's the other thing I learned, that I didn't think was true: Keep the furniture and projector out of there as long as possible -- not just to keep it clean and safe, of course, but also to keep one focused on completion! I swear the second six months went so much slower than the first because it was finally possible to watch stuff in the room (albeit in a very low rent style!) and that was more fun that just plugging away at finishing things.

---

At some point, I'll "finish the story so far" in my posts, and then you'll see how long it takes to get to the next steps for me!

---

Anyway, with this rain we are having in NorCal right now and off and on for a few days, I guess you will have time to make even more progress :yikes:

My problem is I need to buy some wood, and would need to transport it is an open vehicle... in the rain. And the wife is laid up with a bad back, so anything requiring two people is on hold.:whistling:


----------



## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

nathan_h said:


> Here's the other thing I learned, that I didn't think was true: Keep the furniture and projector out of there as long as possible -- not just to keep it clean and safe, of course, but also to keep one focused on completion! I swear the second six months went so much slower than the first because it was finally possible to watch stuff in the room (albeit in a very low rent style!) and that was more fun that just plugging away at finishing things.


From when I started framing to when I got the drywall finished and painted and got the projector and couch in took almost 6 months. In the year since then... I've put in the sconces and built the riser.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

MrAngles said:


> From when I started framing to when I got the drywall finished and painted and got the projector and couch in took almost 6 months. In the year since then... I've put in the sconces and built the riser.


Exactly! 

And maybe that's okay. But I am sure I am not the only person who said "I can resist".... and then didn't.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Adding the riser was a cool step (no pun intended). You'll notice that the room is built, and the riser it getting added into a fully built room. 

You might think this was because it's easier (maybe for me it is, but that's another topic). You may think it was because it was an afterthought (it wasn't). But the real reason is that while I was building a room within a room and the building shares no common walls with anything, I still wanted to seal in the sound and seal out the outside world as much as possible, and building interior pieces into a completed room helped maintain those features of isolation. 

Adding all the insulation to the riser helped keep it from becoming a drum.

LESSONS LEARNED: I should have researched how to make the riser into a bass trap. That would have been an almost free (other than effort) nice big bonus! I should have probably made it a bit taller, even though it was already a little close to the ceiling for tall people. And I should have made the riser one foot deeper (minimum) than the four I allowed. Reasons:

1. A basic theater recliner seat needs 5 feet for the user to raise their legs and have at least a foot rest, if not recline fully.
2. It turns out, after much more acoustic theory learning, my front row (head location) should be at 55% of the room for the least standing waves (68% is also an option but then there would have been no second row). For more about why this is, see Anthony Grimani's interviews on HT Geeks. If the back row riser had been another foot in size, my front row would have been in the PERFECT position! Yes, I can pull the front row seats forward, but that's a bit low-rent looking.

Speaking of things looking "low rent": PLEASE excuse the random furniture! I was working with what we had in the house that could be spared :nerd:


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Time to add some acoustic panels from GIK. They guys there were helpful with advice and recommendations. 

LESSONS LEARNED: Even though a basic diffuser is twice the price of a absorbing panel, getting a similar amount of wall space covered in each type is ideal. I should have cut back on my absorption factor a bit in order to buy diffusion, even if it meant less overall coverage for while as the budget built back up.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Here are a few shots of what ended up being the main configuration for perhaps a year. I think around this time I sent a letter into one of those HT magazines to get advice, and Theo K used my theater of an example of horrible aesthetics! Okay, he was right... the AV pieces were nice, but she was ugly with the lights on.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Next step should have been better furniture. But I'm a a/v geek, so instead I started trying various kinds of audio gear -- mostly cycling through various passive and active speakers. More about that when I get to upload some more photos.

For now, a question:

As I am working on version 2.0 now, I am temporarily using some studio monitors (M Audio Studiophile BX8 speakers) behind an AT screen.

I understand how to calculate the ability of a speaker to play at reference level at a certain distance taking into account sensitivity, power handling, etc.

But I am less clear about how to do that with a studio monitor. Anyone know?

Here are the specs:

Type:Two-way studio reference
LF Driver: 8-inch magnetically-shield mineral-filled polypropylene curved cone
with high temperature voice coil and damped rubber surround
HF Driver: 1-inch magnetically-shield natural silk dome
Frequency Response: 37Hz - 20kHz
Crossover Frequency: 1.8kHz
LF Amplifier Power: 65W
HF Amplifier Power: 65W
S/N Ratio: >100dB below full output, 20kHz bandwidth
Input Connectors: One XLR balanced input connector; one TRS
balanced/unbalanced input connector
Polarity: Positive signal at + input produces outward low-frequency
cone displacement
Input Impedance: 20k ohms balanced, 10k ohms unbalanced
Input Sensitivity: 85 mV pink noise input produces 90dBA output SPL at 1
meter with volume control at maximum
Acoustic Space Control: 0, -2, -4, dB
High Frequency Control: 0, -2, -4, dB
Mid-range Control: Presence, Flat
Low Cut-off Frequencies: 37Hz, 47Hz, 80Hz 
Protection: RF interference, output current limititing, over temperature, turn
on/off transient, subsonic filter, external main fuse
Indicator: Blue power on/off indicator on front panel
Power Requirements: Dual-voltage (selectable by rear-panel switch) for
either 115V/~60Hz, 230V/~50Hz; powered via detachable 3-circuit line cord
Cabinet: vinyl-laminated MDF
Dimension: 380 mm (H) x 250 mm (W) x 300 mm (D)
Weight: 20.32 lb/unit (without packing)


----------



## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

No idea how I missed this thread and have not posted before!

I like the lesson learned you add to each one - very informative for those of us reading along.

As far as the speakers, I suggest posting in the Home Audio Speakers subforum to get a quicker response.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

ALMFamily said:


> No idea how I missed this thread and have not posted before!
> 
> I like the lesson learned you add to each one - very informative for those of us reading along.
> 
> As far as the speakers, I suggest posting in the Home Audio Speakers subforum to get a quicker response.


Thanks! Yeah, the lessons learned are too often embarrassing because the info and guidance is "out there" but in some cases I was cutting corners or thinking I was being smarter than I was -- or I didn't understand WHY people recommend doing something the way they do, until it was too late! Hopefully other people can learn from my mistakes -- so I am trying to explain WHY I should have done things differently, to drive the point home.

---

Yes, I went looking in the speaker forum (I think) and found a "sticky" thread about speaker sensitivity, SPL, etc etc which seemed like the right spot to ask the question, and asked it there, too.

(Hopefully I don't get my hand slapped for cross posting! :whistling: )


----------



## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

nathan_h said:


> LESSONS LEARNED: I should have researched how to make the riser into a bass trap. That would have been an almost free (other than effort) nice big bonus!


Any specific reason why? I see this all over the place but I haven't seen (or just haven't understood) any explanations of how this is particularly beneficial.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

MrAngles said:


> Any specific reason why? I see this all over the place but I haven't seen (or just haven't understood) any explanations of how this is particularly beneficial.


I'm going to assume your "why" is not "Why are bass traps useful?" I'll bet you know that one! :innocent: (If that is what you are asking, we should move our discussion to the acoustics area.)

So I think the question is "Why turn your riser into a bass trap?"

The answer: Because I am already eating up 6x12x1' = 72 cubic feet of space in my theater. And buying a bunch of insulation to put in there. Turning that into 72 cubic feet of bass trapping means I don't need to eat up ANOTHER 72 cubic feet for dedicated bass trapping. I save space, money, and the ugliness of a dedicated trapping system by making the riser do double duty.

I hope that answers the right question :bigsmile:


----------



## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

nathan_h said:


> I'm going to assume your "why" is now "Why are bass traps useful?" I'll bet you know that one! :innocent:
> 
> So the question is "Why turn your riser into a bass trap?"
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's what I was asking. I was wondering more about location though, than overall space used. Does having a bass trap on the floor, or under the back row of seating add anything that corner or wall traps don't? I guess I'm assuming that even if you made a 10-foot deep floor to ceiling bass trap in the back of the theater, you'd still want corner traps on the front wall behind the speakers, right?


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

MrAngles said:


> Yeah, that's what I was asking. I was wondering more about location though, than overall space used. Does having a bass trap on the floor, or under the back row of seating add anything that corner or wall traps don't? I guess I'm assuming that even if you made a 10-foot deep floor to ceiling bass trap in the back of the theater, you'd still want corner traps on the front wall behind the speakers, right?


Being in a corner and along a wall is ideal. Although some corners are a little better than others, I'm not too prejudice. All are useful. That is where bass congregates. That is where one traps it.

Why does that matter? How does that relate? 

Because my riser *IS* in a corner (the corner where the back wall and floor meet). Bass doesn't really care if a corner is vertical or horizontal or in the front or back of the room, etc.

So most risers, if they are like mine, are actually in a perfect place for a bass trap -- in addition to being a cheap way to kill two birds at once (elevated seating, and bass trapping).

Whether that means you don't ALSO need more bass trapping elsewhere is a reasonable question. But it definitely helps. And it's cheap and easy to do and I wish had done it.

---

In my "theater 2.0" I am considering making the riser a foot deeper and MIGHT use that opportunity to turn the riser into the trap it should have been. Maybe. (I think the retrofitting might be a b*tch.)


----------



## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

When I asked Bryan about how much trapping I should do for low end, his reply was basically "you can't have too much low end trapping". I also looked into using the riser for trapping, but everything I read gave me the impression that if your riser did not extend from side wall to side wall, you should not use it that way. Unfortunately, that is the case with my riser...


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

ALMFamily said:


> When I asked Bryan about how much trapping I should do for low end, his reply was basically "you can't have too much low end trapping".


Yep, as long as you can avoid over damping the high end! That's why people use membranes over them etc, as I understand it. 



> I also looked into using the riser for trapping, but everything I read gave me the impression that if your riser did not extend from side wall to side wall, you should not use it that way.


That's interesting. I have never heard that. Maybe it won't be as effective. But I think it will still be a positive impact. 

I mean, should I not use one of my GIK traps because it doesn't reach from floor to ceiling? No I think I should still use it, even though it only covers part of the corner.

But maybe there is something else going on with a riser trap. Do you have more details about that?

(Admittedly, mine is wall to wall, so this is a little academic, but it is an interesting call out.)


----------



## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

ALMFamily said:


> When I asked Bryan about how much trapping I should do for low end, his reply was basically "you can't have too much low end trapping". I also looked into using the riser for trapping, but everything I read gave me the impression that if your riser did not extend from side wall to side wall, you should not use it that way. Unfortunately, that is the case with my riser...


Okay that's what I was thinking. I wanted to do the same thing but it didn't seem to make much sense to treat the floor that way. My riser is basically an island in the middle of the room. It makes more sense if it's treating a corner between the floor and a wall.


----------



## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

nathan_h said:


> Yep, as long as you can avoid over damping the high end! That's why people use membranes over them etc, as I understand it.


Yes sir - I did that when I made my soffits into traps - they are faced with MLV that reflects above 200 Hz.



nathan_h said:


> That's interesting. I have never heard that. Maybe it won't be as effective. But I think it will still be a positive impact.
> 
> I mean, should I not use one of my GIK traps because it doesn't reach from floor to ceiling? No I think I should still use it, even though it only covers part of the corner.
> 
> ...


Been quite a while since I researched that - let me dreg through my brain and see if I can remember the details or where I found the info... :R


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

ALMFamily said:


> Yes sir - I did that when I made my soffits into traps - they are faced with MLV that reflects above 200 Hz.


Cool. How big is your soffit? My understanding was one needs about a foot of depth to get below 200hz?


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Over time, I cycled through a lot of speakers. Several iterations of Thiels, long time favorites of mine for music, powered studio monitors, Usher, Klipsch, Magnepans, Paradigm, etc. And several subs, HSU, JL Audio, Thiel, being the main ones. Of all those, the Thiel 1.6's in all locations, with a Thiel sub, was the best. But it wasn't ideal from a SPL and positioning standpoint -- especially the surrounds, to have floor standing speakers and a non AT screen. 

I went with some in wall Thiel's for the surrounds for a while, which helped room ergonomics. But the move to higher capability speakers and an AT screen was inevitable. That's for later....


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

At the same time, I knew that furniture was not ideal. 

No offense to my friends who occupy the second row, but I focused first on the front row. Needed power recline AND, most important but most complicated, NO armest in the middle of the room. When I am watching solo, I want to be in the sweet spot. When I am watching with the wife, it's nice not to have an arm rest between you.

Finding a piece of furniture like that was harder than I thought. Sure all the manufacturers will sell you two seats without an armrest BUT there is still a nasty bump if you try to sit in the middle. My room is only 12 feet wide, and in order to have room to walk to the back row, and not sit too far off to the side, and allow the door to open properly (remember my LESSON LEARNED earlier about not placing the door where I did and not having the door open inward?), a two seat wide front row was ideal.

Eventually, I found a perfect seat. Except that I could not afford to build the second row seating from the same line -- so I pickup up a row of three seats on CL for row two. Not ideal, but no one complains


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

These additions, plus a "discrete" setup in the corner for making music, and a turntable on the wall opposite the entry door, for serious listening sessions, meant that the world was almost "complete" for theater 1.0.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Next: Getting rid of the old speakers (last in the room were some excellent Magnepans, which were like fish out of water in this space), the original screen (still for sale by the way -- Stewart ain't as popular as it used to be), and revising the treatments to include some diffusion.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Okay the second hand Triad Bronze LCR are now in place. The bstock en4k screen has replaced the on wall screen. The Maggie's and Thiel sub are sold. Some temporary used Triad subs are in place, until Rythmik has the ported 15" ers in stock, and I have saved up enough!






Need to move the screen wall out a few more inches. Even these temporary subs won't fit well, and the real ones will be completely too large. Then it will be time to make panels for the top, bottom, and two sides -- to create a nice flat wall.

A wider shot, earlier. Note that these speakers were just temps for testing.


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

nathan_h said:


> These additions, plus a "discrete" setup in the corner for making music, and a turntable on the wall opposite the entry door, for serious listening sessions, meant that the world was almost "complete" for theater 1.0.


I see you have a Kimono too... Did you fill them with acoustic padding? We have Japanese silk material for Kimonos and we wrapped the acoustic pieces in it. We also put some in the main body part of a Kimono and some in the sleeves too.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

ellisr63 said:


> I see you have a Kimono too... Did you fill them with acoustic padding? We have Japanese silk material for Kimonos and we wrapped the acoustic pieces in it. We also put some in the main body part of a Kimono and some in the sleeves too.


No in fact my room is already bordering on too much absorption. I keep thinking I will build some diffusion because purchasing it is costly, but I may have to devote current budget to buying some diffusion. It's important.

The kimono (actually this is a costume for noh theater I think so it may be called something else) is just to break up the monotony of the black wall, in a place out of the way, visually, when watching movies.


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

I am going to make my own diffusers for the HT.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Updated the screen wall, added acoustics panels of fiberglass and covered in black burlap. Removed the old acoustic form. Those two use triad subs running off a single plate amp were a great idea.... Except they are a beast to integrate with the real deal Rythmik sub. Everything is second had some sometimes a temp setup becomes long term, or gets obsoleted in a week because I find a unicorn.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Next up, cover some of the screen wall in velvet and some of the acoustic diffusers in GOM if I can find a source, start to get the new sub dialed in and convince myself a single sub for a while is okay, and wait impatiently for the emotiva 8100 since I sold my pre pro a while back and am using the analog output of the oppo direct to my amp....


----------



## Lulimet (Apr 4, 2014)

That is a lot of work that you have done. Good stuff.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Lulimet said:


> That is a lot of work that you have done. Good stuff.


Thanks! Never ends.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Building some diffusion panels using existing auralex styrofoam diffusers which will be framed with wood and covered with GOM to match the existing GIK absorption panels.

I cannot tell a lie, I had a buddy who needed an afternoon of work build the frames.... And now it will take a few weeks till they are operational.... Need the GOM and a hanging system.

Will follow Anthony Grimani's approach of alternating diffusion and absorption and having at least fifty percent bare walls.


----------



## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

My goodness sir - you have been busy! Excellent progress!


----------



## pddufrene (Mar 14, 2013)

Good thread! You've definitely put in a lot of time and effort on this project and it shows.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

ALMFamily said:


> My goodness sir - you have been busy! Excellent progress!





pddufrene said:


> Good thread! You've definitely put in a lot of time and effort on this project and it shows.


Thanks, guys. Yep, one step at a time and after several years.....

Anyway, just placed the order for from GOM FR701 black 408 color from GIK. Kills to be pay almost $20 a yard (including shipping) but it's also really the cheapest out there, and I really want this set of panels to visually match the existing panels I have...

.... which I purchased from GIK, with the FR701 fabric on them, about five years ago!

Still going strong, as you can see:


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Now I just gotta figure out a smart way to connect the hanging wire, since my panels will not have the nice open space on the back like the GIK ones.....


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Well, since right now I am largely waiting for stuff (GOM to finish off the panels, the 8100 to replace the hole left when i sold the 4311, the second sub) I decided to get a head start on sub placement via REW's excellent modeling feature.

I decided to do some modeling, to get an idea of what I am looking at, since my second sub has not arrived.

REW now has a great modeling feature that lets you define room size, woofer location, listening location, etc.

I'm trying to optimize for three possible seating locations, all in one row. Sometimes it's two people, sometimes it's one -- and when it's one person, it's in the middle of where the two people seat. 

Yes there is a whole second row of guest seating, and I'm not too worried about that.

Here we have the classic "put them in the front corners" approach. Note that the subs are actually about 22" deep, and I just let the software's default handling of them as 1' cubes take over for this first run.

 

Ugly. Horribly ugly? No, but surely we can do better. It doesn't even have good seat to seat consistency, so correcting is tough.

The advice most people provide, as a rule of thumb, is that 1/4 and 3/4 front wall placement is often a great place to start. 

 

And it's not too bad, as you can see, but also not too great.

A variation on that is, to use 1/4 of the front wall, and 3/4 of the back wall -- though that is an effort to get row-to-row variation minimized, which is not my goal.


 

So without further ado, let's take a look at what the modeling software said would work best -- both in terms of seat to seat variation for the main listening row AND in terms of not having crazy dips (nulls) that are of course much harder to correct well than a few consistent peaks:

Just like the Harman research, it's mid wall placement, front and rear.

 

For the front wall, this is not too difficult. 

For the rear wall, right now there is seating in that location. Looks like I may need to turn the center seat into a large, rumbling end table!


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Got the GOM. Here you can see it on the 2x2' panels. That canning gear box in the background is what the GOM came packed in. Folded a lot, but I think the creases will work themselves out over time.

 


And then the "money shot": Can you tell which is the original GIK panel (absorber) and which is the newly constructed diffusion panel? Probably not too easily. Hint: GIK is on the left.

Seeing how closely they match, I feel like paying 2x the price of other acoustic fabric was worth it.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Need to take some more pictures.

Picked up Rythmik subs, one used local at 50% off, one bstock for a good discount. Have to send one amp in for service.

Tried both the nuforce avp 18 and the Emotiva 8100 (two of them in fact) but both were very finiky with HDMI handshaking. Thinking a Yamaha will have to suffice, even with its limited PEQ.

Sold off the maggie surrounds and replaced with a used pair of Bronze Triad surrounds.

Hung the panels and painted most blemishes on the walls.

Whew!


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

nathan_h said:


> Need to take some more pictures.
> 
> Picked up Rythmik subs, one used local at 50% off, one bstock for a good discount. Have to send one amp in for service.
> 
> ...


Are you using the same HDMI cable for all connections? I had HDMI problems on my current setup and when I switched to all Redmere cables the problem went away. :T


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

ellisr63 said:


> Are you using the same HDMI cable for all connections? I had HDMI problems on my current setup and when I switched to all Redmere cables the problem went away. :T


Yeah that's important to check. I agree. It's often the main issue in such cases.

I now have quite a collection of cables. 15' redmere 18gbps (2.0 hdmi). 20 foot hi speed (1.4 hdmi). 20 foot regular -- actually two of them in different awgs.

The setup worked fine over the past five years with an onkyo, denon, marantz, and direct from the sources (eg, oppo blu-ray). None of them worked with the Nuforce and the Emotiva (though I could see the unit's own menu). 

But they worked fine in the living room, with a six foot cable. Talked with a lot of support people and tried lots of stuff. No dice. 

On to Yamaha...

I'd have kept the Denon 4311 but I really want manual PEQ. It had no trouble with any handshaking.


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

nathan_h said:


> Yeah that's important to check. I agree. It's often the main issue in such cases.
> 
> I now have quite a collection of cables. 15' redmere 18gbps (2.0 hdmi). 20 foot hi speed (1.4 hdmi). 20 foot regular -- actually two of them in different awgs.
> 
> ...


I had all good cables too ( they worked fine until we moved into our current home... no equipment changes at all), but I had sporadic HDMI hand shakes (current home). I would try to get all the HDMI cables of the same brand, and model if possible. If you have a bad Redmere cable... Monoprice has lifetime warranty on them. :T


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

ellisr63 said:


> I had all good cables too ( they worked fine until we moved into our current home... no equipment changes at all), but I had sporadic HDMI hand shakes (current home). I would try to get all the HDMI cables of the same brand, and model if possible. If you have a bad Redmere cable... Monoprice has lifetime warranty on them. :T


 Cables (all four) are fine with all the other sources and processors. Never have a single handshake issue with any of them. Just the one processor platform.

In fact, watching another movie in five minutes on the setup right now. No problems


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Getting a little cleaner. These photos are before adjusting the side surrounds, adding rears, and adding curtains beside the screen.

Next step is to finish handing four more diffusion panels on the ceiling.

Then more photos....


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

....and in the interim, time for better acoustics. Set up REW (beta 22) on the mac air, plugged in the cross spectrum mic, got the display port to HDMI dongle going, and did a sweep without EQ for all channels, smoothed to 1/6th's....


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

and the waterfall. other than running the bass 3 db hot, this is what the room measures like.


----------



## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Is this with bass trapping? That is quite a waterfall graph. It would be a great time to convert that riser to see if it actually makes a difference & how much of one. 

Great job on the build!


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Yeah, considerable bass trapping, I think. Maybe not enough???

Front corners each have one 2'x4'x4" trap straddling the corner, from GIK.
The floor/wall connection at the front under the screen has two 2'x4'xsix inch thick GIK traps straddling it.

There are several five inch traps (sheets of OC covered in black burlap) on the front wall behind the screen.

There are two two six inch thick GIK traps on the rear wall.

(And the riser is full of insulation, but doesn't have any openings, so isn't really doing a lot.)

----

Guess I need more or heavy EQ!


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Alas it may remain a mystery. I have spent the afternoon trying to get single channel output on REW on the Mac, both with and without SoundFlower and with the latest beta (22), but it's not possible via HDMI.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

I eventually got it working. 

Then, between the DSPEAKER device and some manual tweaking from my calibrator, we got it nicely dialed in.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Updated gear list:


PROJECTOR:JVC RS500 calibrated by Chad B with custom curves for HDR, souped up with an HDFury Vertex for automation, fed by Premium Certified HDMI cables from MonoPrice.
(previously a JVC RS20, a Sony Pearl, a Sanyo LCD)

SPEAKERS: 
Left, Center and Right: Triad InRoom Bronze LCR 
(previously Thiel, Magnepan, Paradigm, Mackie, Usher, B&W) 
Surround duties: Triad In Wall Bronze LCR (sides & back). 
(Previously Thiel, Paradigm, Mackie.)
Overhead: Triad In Ceiling Sealed Silver Rounds.
Four corner placed Subs: Two Rythmik F15HP in the front corners & two Rythmik L22 in the rear corners - using Audyssey sub eq in the receiver 
(previously Thiel sub, JL Audio, HSU, Triad, previous EQ provided by SVS AS EQ1, Anti-Mode 8033 Cinema EQ, miniDSP)

SCREEN: 
Seymour EN4K acoustic screen (8 feet wide, not diag) 2.37:1 
(previously a Stewart Ultramatte 200, a Stewart FireHawk, a Dalite)

AUDIO:
Marantz SR6010 receiver 
(previously Yamaha Aventage 1010, Denon 4311, Onkyo pre-pro, Emotiva, Nuforce pre-pro, etc) 
Proceed three channel amp for LCR 
(previously Parasound 5 channel amp)
Acoustic Treatment: Less than 30% coverage, consisting of 50/50 absorption/diffusion panels -- ceiling not shown in diagrams (GIK and DIY)

SOURCES:
Sony UBP-X800 UHD Blu-Ray Plater, Apple TV gen 5 aka ATV4K, Sonos Connect, media server 
(previously too many to list)

AUTOMATION/CONTROL:
Harmony Hub and Smart Control remote


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

And some new photos/ design overviews. Note that the GOLD LCR were replaced with BRONZE LCR (cost cutting) but since I sit so close, this wasn't a big loss for the front row.


----------



## nathan_h (Feb 19, 2009)

Apologies, it looks like the forum software ate all the photos in my build thread. Urgh. In any event, that house has been sold and I'll fire up a new build when possible.


----------

