# KK DXD 808/12012 Owners Thread



## Darkmatter

*Owners*

Darkmatter - Single KK DXD808
Recruit - Single KK DXD808
Audiofan1 - Single KK DXD12012
Kenny Powers - Single KK DXD12012
Asere - Single KK DXD12012
13T - Quattro KK DXD12012


*Compilation of Kens Responses*

*About Sub Placement and the Benefits of DUO Configurations*


KEN KREISEL said:


> Thanks for the kind words, they are always appreciated.
> 
> Further to our discussion, I just posted the following on another Home Theater Shack thread that perhaps is better suited posted here:
> 
> The side of the DXD cabinet with the side driver is designed to be optimally placed 2-4" from the wall, preferably in a good solid corner of the room. For most rooms, I usually recommend first locating the DXD in the closest solid corner to your primary listening position. So, if the closest solid corner (no nearby openings like an open door) is in the back of the room, try it there first.
> 
> Every room is different and needs some experimentation with subwoofer placement. But, after measuring literally hundreds of studios and rooms with very sophisticated TIME DOMAIN measurement equipment with the world's best laboratory measurement microphones, and my own proprietary analysis technique (which measures and computes very much like our ear/brain mechanism interprets the spectrum of sound energy heard over time including and especially transients), the closest solid corner has the best chance of giving you the best and most accurate "out-of-the-box" results, in my humble opinion and experience.
> 
> The DXD's are specifically designed for corner placement which normally will give you the least room mode problems, especially if you are using the stacked DUO configuration which is technically a whole new subwoofer for a host of technical reasons.
> 
> Here is what I just wrote in another Home Theater Shack thread about this:
> 
> "Yes, a DUO will be AUDIOPHILE BASS NIRVANA for you, I guarantee it! As good as single DXD-808's and DXD-12012's are, it is a whole new experience in the DUO configuration because they are technically a whole new type of subwoofer from the single cabinets, I designed it that way.
> 
> Once you stack at least one pair, you have my full BALANCED 3D HIGH VELOCITY PUSH-PULL-PULSAR DEEP BASS PRESSURE WAVEFRONT LINE ARRAY NEARFIELD technology operating in all its glory!!!"
> 
> The DXD's can be placed anywhere in a room, but optimum performance in most rooms will be achieved in a corner placement, again, I designed it that way for all the good reasons.
> 
> Also worth noting, the DXD's performance secret (please don't tell my competition this secret) is they are very specifically and deliberately and scientifically designed to give optimum bass performance in a real room or studio with real walls, not in a parking lot outdoors where a lot of review measurements are made for subwoofer comparisons. The same holds true for close-up type measurements where only part of a DXD's output is actually measured.
> 
> The DXD's put out a sound pressure wave in multiple directions and cannot be properly measured outdoors or close-up, this is a big mistake some reviewers are making. It is somewhat analogous to trying to measure the horsepower on the ground of an ALL WHEEL DRIVE vehicle with a dynamometer, but only measuring the horsepower at one wheel.
> 
> I actually get a big kick at the outdoor and close-up review measurements which show the DXD's appearing to have unusual output levels and response, and then when a reviewer listens and measures in a room they usually comment they cannot believe how much pants flappy energy and impact is heard and felt in their real listening room with real walls and how low the DXD's measure in the room. Remember (another top secret not to tell my competitors), I don't use high pass protection filters in my subs (they ruin the bass impact) so they will go all the way down in a real room with real walls.
> 
> My mentor, Dr. Lester M. Field, used to say "the device is the perfect analog of itself!"
> 
> GOOD SOUND AND GOOD BASS TO YOU...ALWAYS...KEN



*The Difference between the XLR/RCA inputs *


KEN KREISEL said:


> I have seen several thread discussions and several thread speculations about the level sensitivity difference between a DXD sub's RCA input versus the XLR input when using an unbalanced RCA to XLR signal adapter to the XLR input (instead of using a normal professional balanced XLR input signal) and why sometimes the XLR input either sounds better or has less hum in some situations.
> 
> The DXD's RCA and XLR inputs are calibrated to a particular professional standard (can I say THX?). The RCA's input REFERENCE LEVEL to achieve a certain dB SPL (known as the REFERENCE LEVEL) is 100mv (.1 volt). The RCA has a ground connection and a hot connection, and the .1 volts is measured between the hot and ground connection.
> 
> To achieve the same dB SPL output level from the XLR input, the XLR needs to see 200mv (.2 volts) on its input (twice the voltage). The XLR has a ground, a hot terminal (pin 2) and a negative terminal (pin 3). So, pin 2 sees +.1 volts and pin 3 sees a -.1 volts. The +.1 volt plus the -.1 volt gives a voltage potential of .2 volts at the balanced input of the XLR, which is 6dB (twice the voltage gives +6dB) more signal level than the .1 volts seen on the RCA input. This means that technically the XLR input needs 6dB more input signal drive level (twice the voltage) to get the same dB SPL output from the sub.
> 
> So, if you use the XLR inputs unbalanced with an RCA to XLR adapter, you are only feeding a signal to pin-2 of .1 volts as there is no voltage on pin-3, so the XLR input with .1 volts on pin-2 will have -6dB SPL output level below the same .1 volts on the unbalanced RCA input.
> 
> So again, technically, on the DXD, if you use the same unbalanced signal from your surround processor to feed either the DXD's RCA input (only one RCA input) or the XLR input using an unbalanced RCA to XLR adapter, you will have a signal level sensitivity of -6dB SPL lower on the XLR inputs, again when using an unbalanced signal into the balanced XLR input.
> 
> If you happen to be using a Y-connector to feed both RCA input's, and then try the single XLR input with an RCA to XLR adapter, you will see a +12dB SPL difference between the two RCA inputs versus a single XLR input. This is because feeding both RCA inputs (.1mv LEFT input + .1mv RIGHT input) with a Y connector feeds twice the voltage (+6dB) to the DXD compared to feeding a single RCA input.
> 
> As to the reduced hum using the DXD's XLR input there can be two reasons. One, using an RCA to XLR unbalanced adapter to feed the DXD, the DXD will require 6dB more signal drive level to get the same output, so if you increase the subwoofer output drive signal of your processor by 6dB, you will reduce any hum by 6dB compared to the RCA input. Secondly, as mentioned on the description page for the DXD's it states "The balanced XLR input uses a High Performance Professional Instrumentation type balanced circuit design, which can even help eliminate hum in some unbalanced situations were a ground loop exists..."
> 
> Hope this answers the question...KEN



*A question about the XLR Pass through if using an unbalanced XLR connection from the AVR*



KEN KREISEL said:


> The XLR PASS-THRU will not change anything.
> 
> As it is marked on the back panel of the DXD, the XLR OUT is a passive "*DIRECT PASS-THRU (UNBUFFERED)*" so whatever type signal (balanced or unbalanced) is at the XLR IN appears identically on the XLR OUT. It is the same as if you were using an XLR Y-adapter, which is a totally passive PASS-THRU.
> 
> As to the TRIM issue, I would need more specifics about your AVR and what levels you are actually measuring. You could also buy my upcoming STUDIO BASS OPTIMIZATION & CALIBRATION BOX and not worry about it...KEN


*A question on max output of 808 and 12012 subs*



KEN KREISEL said:


> First let me say that you don't have to worry about damaging a DXD-808 or DXD-12012, they can take just about anything you can throw at them. They are built for continuous, year in and year out, heavy duty studio use where you cannot imagine what is both deliberately and unintentionally sent to the subwoofer during major blockbuster film sound design sessions, I assure you it is far beyond your wildest sonic imagination. Also realize that the DXD's can take all of this even though they do not have the usual high-pass protection filter (which ruins the transients and impact) used by most subwoofer manufacturers (out of fear of damage to their amp and/or driver with high level subsonic signals).
> 
> The only caveat is if you have line voltage in excess of 240 volts and do heavy duty subsonic testing with test tones or accidently or deliberately do a high level auto calibration sweep (usually below 10Hz), there is a remote possibility you might fatigue the AC power fuse which is there to protect the amp from abuse or from large power surges from lightning storms or extreme power line surges, and the fatigued fuse might blow when the DXD is turned on due to an excess power surge on turn-on, again usually only if your line voltage is in excess of 240 volts (I have only seen this issue with a handful of owners in the UK and Singapore where they have all measured their line voltage in excess of 240 volts). A new line fuse takes care of it.


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## recruit

A single one here, hoping to make it a Duo at some point in the future and that will be my bass nirvana for me 


​
*Demo List*

DVD-Audio & SACD's

Herbie Hancock - Gershwins World SACD 5.1
The Band - The Last Waltz DVD-Audio 5.1
Train my Private Nation - SACD 5.1
Steely Dan - Two Against Nature DVD-Audio 5.1
Steely Dan - Gaucho DVD-Audio 5.1
Jean Michelle Jarre Areo - DVD-Audio 5.1
Organ Spectular - DVD-Audio 5.1
Yes - Close to the Edge SACD 5.1
Spyro Gyra - Wrapped in a Dream SACD 5.1
Spyro Gyra - Original Cinema SACD 5.1
Steve Wilson - Grace for Drowning DVD-Audio 5.1
Yello - Touch DVD-Audio 5.1
Yello - Stella DVD-Audio 5.1
Horizon & Friends Late Night Chill out Lounge - SACD 5.1
Randy Newman Little Criminals - DVD-Audio 5.1

Blu Ray Demo

Dolby - The sound of High Definition II BD - Dolby True HD
Dolby - The sound of High Definition 3 BD - Dolby True HD
The Police - Live in Concert - the infamous disc that you all must have by now and one that I have been using when I had the MX5100SF and it sounds even better with the new DXD subs.

This is just a few of my music DVD-Audio's and SACD's which are a few of my favourite since getting the DXD808 but don't forget you can also listen to them in 2 channel as well


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## KEN KREISEL

recruit said:


> A single one here, hoping to make it a Duo at some point in the future and that will be my bass nirvana for me
> 
> 
> ​


Yes, a DUO will be AUDIOPHILE BASS NIRVANA for you, I guarantee it! As good as single DXD-808's and DXD-12012's are, it is a whole new experience in the DUO configuration because they are technically a whole new type of subwoofer from the single cabinets, I designed it that way. 

Once you stack at least one pair, you have my full BALANCED 3D HIGH VELOCITY PUSH-PULL-PULSAR DEEP BASS PRESSURE WAVEFRONT LINE ARRAY NEARFIELD technology operating in all its glory!!!

In the meantime,

GOOD SOUND AND GOOD BASS TO YOU...ALWAYS!!!

KEN


----------



## recruit

KEN KREISEL said:


> Yes, a DUO will be AUDIOPHILE BASS NIRVANA for you, I guarantee it! As good as single DXD-808's and DXD-12012's are, it is a whole new experience in the DUO configuration because they are technically a whole new type of subwoofer from the single cabinets, I designed it that way.
> 
> Once you stack at least one pair, you have my full BALANCED 3D HIGH VELOCITY PUSH-PULL-PULSAR DEEP BASS PRESSURE WAVEFRONT LINE ARRAY NEARFIELD technology operating in all its glory!!!
> 
> In the meantime,
> 
> GOOD SOUND AND GOOD BASS TO YOU...ALWAYS!!!
> 
> KEN


Good to hear from you Ken, I think you just twisted my arm, Lol 

Thanks for giving us such great kit to play with :T


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## KEN KREISEL

recruit said:


> Good to hear from you Ken, I think you just twisted my arm, Lol
> 
> Thanks for giving us such great kit to play with :T


Thanks for the kind words, they are always appreciated.

Further to our discussion, I just posted the following on another Home Theater Shack thread that perhaps is better suited posted here:

The side of the DXD cabinet with the side driver is designed to be optimally placed 2-4" from the wall, preferably in a good solid corner of the room. For most rooms, I usually recommend first locating the DXD in the closest solid corner to your primary listening position. So, if the closest solid corner (no nearby openings like an open door) is in the back of the room, try it there first. 

Every room is different and needs some experimentation with subwoofer placement. But, after measuring literally hundreds of studios and rooms with very sophisticated TIME DOMAIN measurement equipment with the world's best laboratory measurement microphones, and my own proprietary analysis technique (which measures and computes very much like our ear/brain mechanism interprets the spectrum of sound energy heard over time including and especially transients), the closest solid corner has the best chance of giving you the best and most accurate "out-of-the-box" results, in my humble opinion and experience. 

The DXD's are specifically designed for corner placement which normally will give you the least room mode problems, especially if you are using the stacked DUO configuration which is technically a whole new subwoofer for a host of technical reasons.

Here is what I just wrote in another Home Theater Shack thread about this:

"Yes, a DUO will be AUDIOPHILE BASS NIRVANA for you, I guarantee it! As good as single DXD-808's and DXD-12012's are, it is a whole new experience in the DUO configuration because they are technically a whole new type of subwoofer from the single cabinets, I designed it that way. 

Once you stack at least one pair, you have my full BALANCED 3D HIGH VELOCITY PUSH-PULL-PULSAR DEEP BASS PRESSURE WAVEFRONT LINE ARRAY NEARFIELD technology operating in all its glory!!!"

The DXD's can be placed anywhere in a room, but optimum performance in most rooms will be achieved in a corner placement, again, I designed it that way for all the good reasons.

Also worth noting, the DXD's performance secret (please don't tell my competition this secret) is they are very specifically and deliberately and scientifically designed to give optimum bass performance in a real room or studio with real walls, not in a parking lot outdoors where a lot of review measurements are made for subwoofer comparisons. The same holds true for close-up type measurements where only part of a DXD's output is actually measured. 

The DXD's put out a sound pressure wave in multiple directions and cannot be properly measured outdoors or close-up, this is a big mistake some reviewers are making. It is somewhat analogous to trying to measure the horsepower on the ground of an ALL WHEEL DRIVE vehicle with a dynamometer, but only measuring the horsepower at one wheel.

I actually get a big kick at the outdoor and close-up review measurements which show the DXD's appearing to have unusual output levels and response, and then when a reviewer listens and measures in a room they usually comment they cannot believe how much pants flappy energy and impact is heard and felt in their real listening room with real walls and how low the DXD's measure in the room. Remember (another top secret not to tell my competitors), I don't use high pass protection filters in my subs (they ruin the bass impact) so they will go all the way down in a real room with real walls.

My mentor, Dr. Lester M. Field, used to say "the device is the perfect analog of itself!"

GOOD SOUND AND GOOD BASS TO YOU...ALWAYS...KEN


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## recruit

I just love the thought of a DUO combination now, I think it will be my last stop, that is until you release some more speakers that is


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## Darkmatter

I do really like the prospect of a Duo as well, the principle of it seems like very logical engineering! I am just not sure if it would be better to just bite the bullet of going to a 12012 now.

I will have a think about it, takes a while to save up for either solution!


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## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> I do really like the prospect of a Duo as well, the principle of it seems like very logical engineering! I am just not sure if it would be better to just bite the bullet of going to a 12012 now. The size makes no difference to me. Recruit, as a fellow 808 owner, why would you go for a duo 808 over a 12012?


For me the main choice of going for the 808 was it's size and it's musical ability as I am more concerned about musical fidelity than I am movies, although it is a beast when it wants to be, a DUO really will not be that far behind a 12012 in terms of Depth but output at other levels it will surpass due to the extra power available, so for me it is a win win, situation, it is the star of the range IMO.


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## Darkmatter

I realise we are having the same discussion on two threads. I will just copy and past the stuff i posted i n the other thread onto here!


Thanks for the reply recruit. I fully understand the desire for somethign smaller and more compact. It does make it so much easier from a room layout prospective to have smaller subs! If i wanted a 12012 i would have to sell my current 808 and buy a 12012 which is more hassel than just getting a 808. also given its location i think a stack with its extra height would be more ideal, so i am leaning towards it for that reason!

The extra depth would seem to be marginal at best and i think the other benefits, great headroom and fidelity will be better as at the moment the use of the sub is 50/50 music and movies. I tend i listen to music for 2hours before the wife comes home then we watch a film or TV in the evening for 1-2hours.


I will also add i am really enjoying having a more positive conversation on this forum. I post on the AV forums and everything ends up with a argument with certain people which gets very boring after a while!


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## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> I realise we are having the same discussion on two threads. I will just copy and past the stuff i posted i n the other thread onto here!
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply recruit. I fully understand the desire for somethign smaller and more compact. It does make it so much easier from a room layout prospective to have smaller subs! If i wanted a 12012 i would have to sell my current 808 and buy a 12012 which is more hassel than just getting a 808. also given its location i think a stack with its extra height would be more ideal, so i am leaning towards it for that reason!
> 
> The extra depth would seem to be marginal at best and i think the other benefits, great headroom and fidelity will be better as at the moment the use of the sub is 50/50 music and movies. I tend i listen to music for 2hours before the wife comes home then we watch a film or TV in the evening for 1-2hours.
> 
> 
> I will also add i am really enjoying having a more positive conversation on this forum. I post on the AV forums and everything ends up with a argument with certain people which gets very boring after a while!


Yes, if you already own an 808 then the logical step would be to get a stack or DUO which will then give you the fully balanced sub and the benefits which Ken has discussed earlier which tbh I cannot wait to hear, as I know from experience, with his speakers and subs, when he creates something special, you really do need to hear it for your self to benefit it fully 

It is also nice to have a proper discussion with people who are passionate about a subject that I also love and enjoy so much, other forums which I know to well always end up in arguments and I know those forums very well myself which is why I left them.


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## Darkmatter

As i have only been into home cinema kit for about 4-5 years. I have only recently been introduced to M&K and now KK stuff, but from my experience of my KK sub i am perfectly willing to put my trust in if KK tells me the DUO is awesome then he is right! 

I live right near FrankHarvey so its a shame that they stopped selling KK as i would imagine i could have borrowed a 808 for a few days to test it vs my 12012.


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## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> As i have only been into home cinema kit for about 4-5 years. I have only recently been introduced to M&K and now KK stuff, but from my experience of my KK sub i am perfectly willing to put my trust in if KK tells me the DUO is awesome then he is right!
> 
> I live right near FrankHarvey so its a shame that they stopped selling KK as i would imagine i could have borrowed a 808 for a few days to test it vs my 12012.


Yes, I feel exactly the same about the Frankharvey situation, but I believe that it was out of Ken's hands as L Sound are the one's that took that decision to make them a direct sell product


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## recruit

I have been using Ken's speakers and subs for about 10 years and will continue to use them as they are considered to be some if not the best for studio's and film makers, but once you get to listen to a full Ken Kreisel speaker and sub package then you are hooked for life


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## Darkmatter

Oh well. At least from my experience Jan at L - Sound seems a good person to deal with and always gets back to you quickly and is helpful with answering questions.

I am not sure if i asked you recruit but i still am none the wiser. When i connect

RCA(AVR)-RCA(808) the AVR trims the so to -12 (green dot position)
RCA(AVR)-XLR(808) the avr trims the sub to -2 (green dot position)

Is it part of the design? Its good news for if i got a DUO 808 as there will still be enough trim left on the subwoofer channel to set them both to the green dot position. I just wondered if there was anything wrong with the XLR or RCA connection to get such a big disparity between the two.


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## recruit

XLR is a balanced connection and therefore the noise floor level is brought down dramatically and this could be why you are getting such better results using the XLR connections over the RCA ones.


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## Darkmatter

Yeah i originally got the RCA-XLR connection as i much prefer XLR connections due to how snugly they fit together. It also seemed to reduce the slight hum the sub gave out when the AVR is not turned on. So i have been very pleased with it for that. 

Maybe the reduced volume is because the if it was a XLR-XLR cable there would be two "hot" pins as such which would give the subs input more voltage which would generate a higher output. These are all wild guesses.

EDIT

An RCA-XLR is still unbalanced due to it only having a single hot pin.


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## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> Yeah i originally got the RCA-XLR connection as i much prefer XLR connections due to how snugly they fit together. It also seemed to reduce the slight hum the sub gave out when the AVR is not turned on. So i have been very pleased with it for that.
> 
> Maybe the reduced volume is because the if it was a XLR-XLR cable there would be two "hot" pins as such which would give the subs input more voltage which would generate a higher output. These are all wild guesses.
> 
> EDIT
> 
> An RCA-XLR is still unbalanced due to it only having a single hot pin.


Obviously it is having some benefit, when I get the other DXD808 then I will have to use XLR cables to pass through, so I will see for myself what results they yield when I get round to connecting up


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## asere

Proud owner of a single dxd 12012. Thanks to this wonderful forum and thanks to Ken for amazing product.


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## recruit

asere said:


> Proud owner of a single dxd 12012. Thanks to this wonderful forum and thanks to Ken for amazing product.


Yes, you won the KK sub didn't you asere on the forum?


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## asere

recruit said:


> Yes, you won the KK sub didn't you asere on the forum?


Yes I did. I couldn't believe it when I was notified.


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## recruit

asere said:


> Yes I did. I couldn't believe it when I was notified.


Lucky man indeed, well done mate


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## asere

recruit said:


> Lucky man indeed, well done mate


Thanks


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## KEN KREISEL

Darkmatter said:


> Yeah i originally got the RCA-XLR connection as i much prefer XLR connections due to how snugly they fit together. It also seemed to reduce the slight hum the sub gave out when the AVR is not turned on. So i have been very pleased with it for that.
> 
> Maybe the reduced volume is because the if it was a XLR-XLR cable there would be two "hot" pins as such which would give the subs input more voltage which would generate a higher output. These are all wild guesses.
> 
> EDIT
> 
> An RCA-XLR is still unbalanced due to it only having a single hot pin.


I have seen several thread discussions and several thread speculations about the level sensitivity difference between a DXD sub's RCA input versus the XLR input when using an unbalanced RCA to XLR signal adapter to the XLR input (instead of using a normal professional balanced XLR input signal) and why sometimes the XLR input either sounds better or has less hum in some situations.

The DXD's RCA and XLR inputs are calibrated to a particular professional standard (can I say THX?). The RCA's input REFERENCE LEVEL to achieve a certain dB SPL (known as the REFERENCE LEVEL) is 100mv (.1 volt). The RCA has a ground connection and a hot connection, and the .1 volts is measured between the hot and ground connection. 

To achieve the same dB SPL output level from the XLR input, the XLR needs to see 200mv (.2 volts) on its input (twice the voltage). The XLR has a ground, a hot terminal (pin 2) and a negative terminal (pin 3). So, pin 2 sees +.1 volts and pin 3 sees a -.1 volts. The +.1 volt plus the -.1 volt gives a voltage potential of .2 volts at the balanced input of the XLR, which is 6dB (twice the voltage gives +6dB) more signal level than the .1 volts seen on the RCA input. This means that technically the XLR input needs 6dB more input signal drive level (twice the voltage) to get the same dB SPL output from the sub. 

So, if you use the XLR inputs unbalanced with an RCA to XLR adapter, you are only feeding a signal to pin-2 of .1 volts as there is no voltage on pin-3, so the XLR input with .1 volts on pin-2 will have -6dB SPL output level below the same .1 volts on the unbalanced RCA input. 

So again, technically, on the DXD, if you use the same unbalanced signal from your surround processor to feed either the DXD's RCA input (only one RCA input) or the XLR input using an unbalanced RCA to XLR adapter, you will have a signal level sensitivity of -6dB SPL lower on the XLR inputs, again when using an unbalanced signal into the balanced XLR input. 

If you happen to be using a Y-connector to feed both RCA input's, and then try the single XLR input with an RCA to XLR adapter, you will see a +12dB SPL difference between the two RCA inputs versus a single XLR input. This is because feeding both RCA inputs (.1mv LEFT input + .1mv RIGHT input) with a Y connector feeds twice the voltage (+6dB) to the DXD compared to feeding a single RCA input.

As to the reduced hum using the DXD's XLR input there can be two reasons. One, using an RCA to XLR unbalanced adapter to feed the DXD, the DXD will require 6dB more signal drive level to get the same output, so if you increase the subwoofer output drive signal of your processor by 6dB, you will reduce any hum by 6dB compared to the RCA input. Secondly, as mentioned on the description page for the DXD's it states "The balanced XLR input uses a High Performance Professional Instrumentation type balanced circuit design, which can even help eliminate hum in some unbalanced situations were a ground loop exists..."

Hope this answers the question...KEN


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## Darkmatter

Thank you for the reply ken, it was what it thought was going on even if I did not fully understand the technical reason as to why!

Does the DXD change the XLR out to be a fully balanced XLR so if I connect the second in a duo stack it will be louder as its getting 0.2v instead of the 0.1v of the first one? 

Also what happens when you run out of trim on the AVR? How will I level match a Quattro stack then?


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## recruit

I think you can alter the balance yourself on this one, by using an SPL meter and just turning the speakers SPL down so that you can accommodate more SPL within your system.


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## kenny powers

recruit said:


> Yes, if you already own an 808 then the logical step would be to get a stack or DUO which will then give you the fully balanced sub and the benefits which Ken has discussed earlier which tbh I cannot wait to hear, as I know from experience, with his speakers and subs, when he creates something special, you really do need to hear it for your self to benefit it fully
> 
> It is also nice to have a proper discussion with people who are passionate about a subject that I also love and enjoy so much, other forums which I know to well always end up in arguments and I know those forums very well myself which is why I left them.


Hi John

I agree his speakers are bloody tremendous, his new range really need to be getting much more exposure than they currently are, hopefully that will change soon.

I don't have room for a second 12012 in my small room at the moment but we have just had planning permission to build our new home where I have a dedicated room big enough for another! 

One day I shall have a duo setup! :T


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## recruit

kenny powers said:


> Hi John
> 
> I agree his speakers are bloody tremendous, his new range really need to be getting much more exposure than they currently are, hopefully that will change soon.
> 
> I don't have room for a second 12012 in my small room at the moment but we have just had planning permission to build our new home where I have a dedicated room big enough for another!
> 
> One day I shall have a duo setup! :T


Hi Andrew,

Yes mate, they certainly need more exposure in the UK for sure and all over for that fact, hopefully that will change soon !!

A second 12012 would be awesome mate, and that is good news about the house or maybe not :hsd: Lol!

I think the DUO DXD808 will be the ultimate set up for me, for my usage anyway and will give me reference bass, well to my reference :lol:


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## Darkmatter

I think that might be the same for me too recruit! Hopefully one will pop up second hand if not i will just have to keep saving!


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## KEN KREISEL

Darkmatter said:


> Thank you for the reply ken, it was what it thought was going on even if I did not fully understand the technical reason as to why!
> 
> Does the DXD change the XLR out to be a fully balanced XLR so if I connect the second in a duo stack it will be louder as its getting 0.2v instead of the 0.1v of the first one?
> 
> Also what happens when you run out of trim on the AVR? How will I level match a Quattro stack then?


The XLR PASS-THRU will not change anything.

As it is marked on the back panel of the DXD, the XLR OUT is a passive "*DIRECT PASS-THRU (UNBUFFERED)*" so whatever type signal (balanced or unbalanced) is at the XLR IN appears identically on the XLR OUT. It is the same as if you were using an XLR Y-adapter, which is a totally passive PASS-THRU.

As to the TRIM issue, I would need more specifics about your AVR and what levels you are actually measuring. You could also buy my upcoming STUDIO BASS OPTIMIZATION & CALIBRATION BOX and not worry about it...KEN


----------



## recruit

KEN KREISEL said:


> You could also buy my upcoming STUDIO BASS OPTIMIZATION & CALIBRATION BOX and not worry about it...KEN


I want one Ken, pop one in the post please? :bigsmile:


----------



## Darkmatter

Any more info about this bass optimizer ken? Sounds intruiging.


----------



## recruit

Guy's how about showing your subs on this thread, which I think is a good Idea?

Pic's, Pic's, Pic's, Please


----------



## kenny powers

Here ya go mate, quick phone camera pic.


----------



## recruit

kenny powers said:


> Here ya go mate, quick phone camera pic.


Lol, Andrew, you an Aussie mate or what ?


----------



## kenny powers

recruit said:


> Lol, Andrew, you an Aussie mate or what ?


Lol no its not neighbours I'm watching, it was Breaking Bad! :bigsmile:


----------



## recruit

When turned round the right way up, you have one awesome set up matey :T


----------



## kenny powers

recruit said:


> When turned round the right way up, you have one awesome set up matey :T


Lol doh you're right I've had them upside for a over a month without noticing :help:


----------



## recruit

Looks good this way mate


----------



## recruit

I love all those KK badges :bigsmile:


----------



## kenny powers

recruit said:


> I love all those KK badges :bigsmile:


Swapped L&R and correct way round now, what a plonker. :rubeyes:


----------



## recruit

kenny powers said:


> Swapped L&R and correct way round now, what a plonker. :rubeyes:


I bet your system rocks Andrew :thumbup:


----------



## kenny powers

recruit said:


> I bet your system rocks Andrew :thumbup:


It does mate and it sounds better than I thought it would it such a small room. Since selling the old place the missus didn't want my gear in the living room so I've had to squeeze it all into a spare room. The plasma would've had to be high up above the fire place which I would have hated anyway, so its worked out quite well.

I'm certain it will sound even better once we get our new place built and if the budget allows me to add a second 12012.:bigsmile: When are you planning on making yours a duo?

I had my sub behind me, corner loaded like Ken suggested in his earlier post till a few weeks ago but I think it was too overpowering in my small room that way. Have you tried yours this way?


----------



## recruit

kenny powers said:


> It does mate and it sounds better than I thought it would it such a small room. Since selling the old place the missus didn't want my gear in the living room so I've had to squeeze it all into a spare room. The plasma would've had to be high up above the fire place which I would have hated anyway, so its worked out quite well.
> 
> I'm certain it will sound even better once we get our new place built and if the budget allows me to add a second 12012.:bigsmile: When are you planning on making yours a duo?
> 
> I had my sub behind me, corner loaded like Ken suggested in his earlier post till a few weeks ago but I think it was too overpowering in my small room that way. Have you tried yours this way?


I would love a dedicated room but I do not think that will be possible now, but I'll have to slum it for the time being with it being in the lounge, tbh I do not have room to put mine right up in the corner as my ProAc's take up so much room but if it sounded off then I would certainly of tried different positions in the room but where it is, sounds very very good indeed, even if I'm getting 90% it is a bloody good 90 of it's performance 

Not too sure tbh when I am going to get another, when I can afford to I suppose Lol! but for now I am enjoying what I have got, watched Pain & Gain last night and I must say the bass in that film was brilliant, real punch to it, just made me chuckle every time, and with a huge grin on my face, it's bass presented the Ken Kreisel way :bigsmile:


----------



## Audiofan1

Hi guys ! I'm new to HTS and also the owner of a single DXD12012 and looking forward to discussing this wonderful sub,that is until there's sub's to discuss:bigsmile:


----------



## Darkmatter

Something I was thinking about yesterday, I wonder what the same maximum volume level is for the follow combinations,

Single 808
Single 12012 
Duo 808 etc etc

From the sub some measurements it seems its outdoor 2m value is 105db, so indoors corner loaded you get +12db, but then younlose -3 to -6db from listening like 3-4m away. So that makes its limit at about 114db. Which with the combined lfe channel and satellites 0 is at Max 123db, its save to use a single 808 or 12012 up to -10 without damaging it?

Then a duo would be 6db higher so approximately -5 then you would need a trio or quattro for reference or higher bass?

I am not sure if I am miles off or not, what do you guys think?


----------



## Audiofan1

Darkmatter said:


> Something I was thinking about yesterday, I wonder what the same maximum volume level is for the follow combinations,
> 
> Single 808
> Single 12012
> Duo 808 etc etc
> 
> From the sub some measurements it seems its outdoor 2m value is 105db, so indoors corner loaded you get +12db, but then younlose -3 to -6db from listening like 3-4m away. So that makes its limit at about 114db. Which with the combined lfe channel and satellites 0 is at Max 123db, its save to use a single 808 or 12012 up to -10 without damaging it?
> 
> Then a duo would be 6db higher so approximately -5 then you would need a trio or quattro for reference or higher bass?
> 
> I am not sure if I am miles off or not, what do you guys think?


Are you asking if you can run a single -10 db from 0 with out damage?


----------



## Darkmatter

Yes well it was more as a guidelines whats a safe max output level for each configuration?


----------



## Audiofan1

On more than one occasion I've watched movies at 0 with an additional + 5db hot on the sub output, in fact it was tonite watching Wrath of the Titans :gulp: and the 12012 just got louder and louder as the room and chair shook . I really don't know how hard it can be driven and to be honest that's as high as I'm willing to go as its a terrifying experience and don't know what i'll do when I stack the second  I just love its clean, clean output.


----------



## asere

I don't watch near reference levels only with volume at 40 to 50 and my 12012 sounds amazing with clean tight bass. I can't imagine how much better it would sound at reference.


----------



## Darkmatter

Audiofan1 said:


> On more than one occasion I've watched movies at 0 with an additional + 5db hot on the sub output, in fact it was tonite watching Wrath of the Titans :gulp: and the 12012 just got louder and louder as the room and chair shook . I really don't know how hard it can be driven and to be honest that's as high as I'm willing to go as its a terrifying experience and don't know what i'll do when I stack the second  I just love its clean, clean output.


lol +5 for the sub is a bit beyond what I would listen to.

It was more I was watching star wars episode 1 pod race scene at -10 wondering what the same max volume I could turn it up before I broke it! (Like recruit the 808 is my baby so I am very protective about it!)


----------



## KEN KREISEL

Darkmatter said:


> Something I was thinking about yesterday, I wonder what the same maximum volume level is for the follow combinations,
> 
> Single 808
> Single 12012
> Duo 808 etc etc
> 
> From the sub some measurements it seems its outdoor 2m value is 105db, so indoors corner loaded you get +12db, but then younlose -3 to -6db from listening like 3-4m away. So that makes its limit at about 114db. Which with the combined lfe channel and satellites 0 is at Max 123db, its save to use a single 808 or 12012 up to -10 without damaging it?
> 
> Then a duo would be 6db higher so approximately -5 then you would need a trio or quattro for reference or higher bass?
> 
> I am not sure if I am miles off or not, what do you guys think?


First let me say that you don't have to worry about damaging a DXD-808 or DXD-12012, they can take just about anything you can throw at them. They are built for continuous, year in and year out, heavy duty studio use where you cannot imagine what is both deliberately and unintentionally sent to the subwoofer during major blockbuster film sound design sessions, I assure you it is far beyond your wildest sonic imagination. Also realize that the DXD's can take all of this even though they do not have the usual high-pass protection filter (which ruins the transients and impact) used by most subwoofer manufacturers (out of fear of damage to their amp and/or driver with high level subsonic signals). 

The only caveat is if you have line voltage in excess of 240 volts and do heavy duty subsonic testing with test tones or accidently or deliberately do a high level auto calibration sweep (usually below 10Hz), there is a remote possibility you might fatigue the AC power fuse which is there to protect the amp from abuse or from large power surges from lightning storms or extreme power line surges, and the fatigued fuse might blow when the DXD is turned on due to an excess power surge on turn-on, again usually only if your line voltage is in excess of 240 volts (I have only seen this issue with a handful of owners in the UK and Singapore where they have all measured their line voltage in excess of 240 volts). A new line fuse takes care of it.

Also worth noting as I previously posted: 

The DXD's performance secret (please don't tell my competition this secret) is they are very specifically and deliberately and scientifically designed to give optimum bass performance in a real room or studio with real walls, not in a parking lot outdoors where a lot of review measurements are made for subwoofer comparison purposes. The same holds true for close-up type measurements where only part of a DXD's output is actually measured. 

The DXD's put out a sound pressure wave in multiple directions and cannot be properly measured outdoors or close-up, this is a big mistake some reviewers are making. It is somewhat analogous to trying to measure the horsepower on the ground of an ALL WHEEL DRIVE vehicle with a dynamometer, but only measuring the horsepower at one wheel.

I actually get a big kick at the outdoor and close-up review measurements which show the DXD's appearing to have unusual output levels and response, and then when a reviewer listens and measures in a room they usually comment they cannot believe how much pants flapping energy and impact is heard and felt in their real listening room with real walls and how low the DXD's measure in the room. Remember (another top secret not to tell my competitors), I don't use high pass protection filters in my subs (they ruin the bass impact) so they will go all the way down in a real room with real walls.

My mentor, Dr. Lester M. Field, used to say "the device is the perfect analog of itself!"

Please forgive my reposting part of a previous post...KEN


----------



## Darkmatter

KEN KREISEL said:


> First let me say that you don't have to worry about damaging a DXD-808 or DXD-12012, they can take just about anything you can throw at them. They are built for continuous, year in and year out, heavy duty studio use where you cannot imagine what is both deliberately and unintentionally sent to the subwoofer during major blockbuster film sound design sessions, I assure you it is far beyond your wildest sonic imagination. Also realize that the DXD's can take all of this even though they do not have the usual high-pass protection filter (which ruins the transients and impact) used by most subwoofer manufacturers (out of fear of damage to their amp and/or driver with high level subsonic signals).
> 
> The only caveat is if you have line voltage in excess of 240 volts and do heavy duty subsonic testing with test tones or accidently or deliberately do a high level auto calibration sweep (usually below 10Hz), there is a remote possibility you might fatigue the AC power fuse which is there to protect the amp from abuse or from large power surges from lightning storms or extreme power line surges, and the fatigued fuse might blow when the DXD is turned on due to an excess power surge on turn-on, again usually only if your line voltage is in excess of 240 volts (I have only seen this issue with a handful of owners in the UK and Singapore where they have all measured their line voltage in excess of 240 volts). A new line fuse takes care of it.


Thanks for the reply ken, its good to know I have need not to worry about blowing up the sub! It was producing some serious bass during the pod race scene at -10! I know in comparison to the max output tests and using test tones for hours on end, music and film use is absolutely nothing in terms of load on the driver and amp! 

I will add your response to the first page, be good to keep it up to date with all the answers incase any new owners stumble across this thread.


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> lol +5 for the sub is a bit beyond what I would listen to.
> 
> It was more I was watching star wars episode 1 pod race scene at -10 wondering what the same max volume I could turn it up before I broke it! (Like recruit the 808 is my baby so I am very protective about it!)


I would not worry to much about the levels, the subs will be more than able to handle 0db, I was listening to DVD-Audio's at around -2db and it was loud but not at all hard to listen to at all, it is whether the rest of your system is happy running at those levels ie your other, speakers, power amp, or AVR's, which will show signs of stress well before the KK subs will, but I bet the rest of your kit will be fine Darkmatter


----------



## kenny powers

recruit said:


> I would love a dedicated room but I do not think that will be possible now, but I'll have to slum it for the time being with it being in the lounge, tbh I do not have room to put mine right up in the corner as my ProAc's take up so much room but if it sounded off then I would certainly of tried different positions in the room but where it is, sounds very very good indeed, even if I'm getting 90% it is a bloody good 90 of it's performance
> 
> Not too sure tbh when I am going to get another, when I can afford to I suppose Lol! but for now I am enjoying what I have got, watched Pain & Gain last night and I must say the bass in that film was brilliant, real punch to it, just made me chuckle every time, and with a huge grin on my face, it's bass presented the Ken Kreisel way :bigsmile:


Yeh watched that the other night too, crazy awesome bass throughout! if you're after awesome powerful detailed bass and only way is the KK way mate! :bigsmile:


----------



## recruit

Audiofan1 said:


> On more than one occasion I've watched movies at 0 with an additional + 5db hot on the sub output, in fact it was tonite watching Wrath of the Titans :gulp: and the 12012 just got louder and louder as the room and chair shook . I really don't know how hard it can be driven and to be honest that's as high as I'm willing to go as its a terrifying experience and don't know what i'll do when I stack the second  I just love its clean, clean output.


Hey, Audiofan1 good to see you on here, I have read some of your posts, and you are well and truly in the KK club for sure 



kenny powers said:


> Yeh watched that the other night too, crazy awesome bass throughout! if you're after awesome powerful detailed bass and only way is the KK way mate! :bigsmile:


Yeah, great film Andrew, and a good one to flex the DXD muscles


----------



## Audiofan1

recruit said:


> Hey, Audiofan1 good to see you on here, I have read some of your posts, and you are well and truly in the KK club for sure
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, great film Andrew, and a good one to flex the DXD muscles


Hey! recruit yeah I finally took the plunge and signed on, you guys seemed to be having a good time and I couldn't hold out any longer. I'll try to get some pics up as soon as I figure it out.


----------



## recruit

Audiofan1 said:


> Hey! recruit yeah I finally took the plunge and signed on, you guys seemed to be having a good time and I couldn't hold out any longer. I'll try to get some pics up as soon as I figure it out.


Yep, it is good to see you on here, I have been reading some of your posts on AVForums, with some interest, cannot wait to see to some pic's of your set up matey :T


----------



## Audiofan1

Darkmatter said:


> lol +5 for the sub is a bit beyond what I would listen to.
> 
> It was more I was watching star wars episode 1 pod race scene at -10 wondering what the same max volume I could turn it up before I broke it! (Like recruit the 808 is my baby so I am very protective about it!)


Just knowing what's on tap and going through a great deal to get the foundation of my setup as best I could , playing a movie back at reference in the past would indeed be loud with various peaks due to some area's being out of proportion to those that where up to the task! After leveling the playing field (DXD being one of the upgrades) its like taking sports car with 200mph capabilities to the autobahn to cut lose after being confined to day to day driving. I only go reference on a first run of a release I've wanted to see as I may visit the local cinema at best twice a year. Most movies I watch at around -13-17 depending on content. My primary listening is late nights with classical or jazz at around -35 to -29. so when the weekend comes its time for fun.

As a side note not all movies are recorded the same and some absolutely shine at reference and the current on the top of that list is "Oblivion" .


----------



## Audiofan1

recruit said:


> Yep, it is good to see you on here, I have been reading some of your posts on AVForums, with some interest, cannot wait to see to some pic's of your set up matey :T


Speaking of pics and setups , nice job ! simply a thing of beauty.


----------



## 13T

Another new shack member here, Quattro 12012 owner checking in from the UK nearly 15 months of ownership and loving every minute spent with them. Originally started with a duo setup but wasn't long before I'd added another 2. Eagerly awaiting more details on the new / next range of speakers… 

BT


----------



## kenny powers

13T said:


> Another new shack member here, Quattro 12012 owner checking in from the UK nearly 15 months of ownership and loving every minute spent with them. Originally started with a duo setup but wasn't long before I'd added another 2. Eagerly awaiting more details on the new / next range of speakers&#133;
> 
> BT


Welcome you lucky lucky man!


----------



## recruit

13T said:


> Another new shack member here, Quattro 12012 owner checking in from the UK nearly 15 months of ownership and loving every minute spent with them. Originally started with a duo setup but wasn't long before I'd added another 2. Eagerly awaiting more details on the new / next range of speakers…
> 
> BT


Welcome 13T, you lucky man, good to see you, and well and truly addicted to bass :T


----------



## 13T

Thanks for the welcome guys. I look forward to reading everyone's experiences with these awesome subs. I'm slowly working my way through a backlog of recent releases so a bit behind the latest stuff I'll try and post my thoughts as I go along

BT


----------



## recruit

I don't know about you chaps but I have a massive catalog of very good demo material which I have found the new DXD subs absolutely lap up, and make it sound even better than I have heard on previous subs and that includes Ken's previous M&K subs, not sure if it is worth listing here but it is mostly music with lots of great bass, if anyone is interested?


----------



## kenny powers

recruit said:


> I don't know about you chaps but I have a massive catalog of very good demo material which I have found the new DXD subs absolutely lap up, and make it sound even better than I have heard on previous subs and that includes Ken's previous M&K subs, not sure if it is worth listing here but it is mostly music with lots of great bass, if anyone is interested?


Yes John, I'd definitely be interested!


----------



## recruit

kenny powers said:


> Yes John, I'd definitely be interested!


Cool, I'll make the list up and post it up


----------



## Darkmatter

Grats on the Quattro 12012! That must be immense, very jealous. Where abouts in the UK are you located? 

I would love a good demo list recruit, maybe you could edit the second post in this thread and turn it into a demo material post ? I might have a good few suggestions!

Its been great to have so many people come out the woodwork to post in this thread, I was not expecting it when I opened it!


----------



## Darkmatter

Audiofan1 said:


> Just knowing what's on tap and going through a great deal to get the foundation of my setup as best I could , playing a movie back at reference in the past would indeed be loud with various peaks due to some area's being out of proportion to those that where up to the task! After leveling the playing field (DXD being one of the upgrades) its like taking sports car with 200mph capabilities to the autobahn to cut lose after being confined to day to day driving. I only go reference on a first run of a release I've wanted to see as I may visit the local cinema at best twice a year. Most movies I watch at around -13-17 depending on content. My primary listening is late nights with classical or jazz at around -35 to -29. so when the weekend comes its time for fun.
> 
> As a side note not all movies are recorded the same and some absolutely shine at reference and the current on the top of that list is "Oblivion" .


I 100% agree that some movies are louder than others, and the kit you have makes a big difference to how loud you can go before it sounds awful. I used to find -20 for films loud with my old kit but now I can go to -10 and its not uncomfortably loud. Lord of the rings is a film I find is mixed loudly, where as "flight" I could have at -10 and it didn't seem loud at all. I am really looking forward to Oblivion, its on my LOVEfilm list as we speak!


----------



## 13T

Darkmatter said:


> Grats on the Quattro 12012! That must be immense, very jealous. Where abouts in the UK are you located?
> 
> Its been great to have so many people come out the woodwork to post in this thread, I was not expecting it when I opened it!


Live in the Channel Islands. I've been lurking around a few forums I tend to read rather than post most of the time


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> I would love a good demo list recruit, maybe you could edit the second post in this thread and turn it into a demo material post ? I might have a good few suggestions!


Yes, for some strange reason I cannot edit atm, I have just PM'd admin to ask for this to be looked at, so that I can slot it in :scratch:


----------



## 13T

Thanks for the list Recruit I'll be checking some of them out in due course. Dolby - The sound of High Definition 3 BD some great clips on there Art of Flight being a favorite of mine awesome track for demo purposes.


----------



## Audiofan1

kenny powers said:


> Yes John, I'd definitely be interested!


Yep! + 1 count me interested:T


----------



## recruit

13T said:


> Thanks for the list Recruit I'll be checking some of them out in due course. Dolby - The sound of High Definition 3 BD some great clips on there Art of Flight being a favorite of mine awesome track for demo purposes.


No problem, yes the latest Dolby Demo discs are pretty good with Art of Flight being on there, I actually have that, and the 3D is pretty spectacular too.


----------



## asere

Ken, when running Audyssey set up is it best to use all different positions or place Mic at main listing position and do all the other positions from there?


----------



## Darkmatter

Where do you get the demo discs from?


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> Where do you get the demo discs from?


You can pick up the BD demo discs off of Amazon or EBay, just do a search and it should bring up a list of all different ones, I have many from over the years DTS & Dolby ones, DVD-Audio and SACD can be had but dependant on stock and pricing can range from little to a lot !


----------



## KEN KREISEL

asere said:


> Ken, when running Audyssey set up is it best to use all different positions or place Mic at main listing position and do all the other positions from there?


Personally I would measure only at the primary listening position if this is where you sit. There are also a lot of factors at play here concerning how the Audyssey and most of the other auto-calibration systems do their measurements, so I am hesitant to really make any definitive recommendations. 

I use my own proprietary computerized TIME DOMAIN studio/room measurement technique with calibrated laboratory grade microphones, and these are the only room measurements I know I can trust. For the home user, I usually recommend buying a separate SPL meter and setting subwoofer levels manually and taking a listen. I have too many emails from people where their auto calibration system does something very very strange to the EQ and they have to turn it off to get good sound...KEN


----------



## Sonnie

I think the biggest issue with Audyssey is users do not take time to get the proper mic and measurement software (such as our free REW) and look at their subwoofer response at their main listening position before using Audyssey. Audyssey does not work well with responses that have large low frequency peaks. Those peaks need to be dealt with, either by moving the sub around, serious bass traps (scopus traps or something that will work down to 30-60Hz), or by using a parametric EQ to remove as much of that peak as possible, then run Audyssey. I actually remove my worst peaks, run Audyssey, and then smooth out what Audyssey doesn't handle as well as I like. To me... the most important response in a home theater is the bass... and I believe it is a necessity to get right for good sound.


----------



## asere

KEN KREISEL said:


> Personally I would measure only at the primary listening position if this is where you sit. There are also a lot of factors at play here concerning how the Audyssey and most of the other auto-calibration systems do their measurements, so I am hesitant to really make any definitive recommendations.
> 
> I use my own proprietary computerized TIME DOMAIN studio/room measurement technique with calibrated laboratory grade microphones, and these are the only room measurements I know I can trust. For the home user, I usually recommend buying a separate SPL meter and setting subwoofer levels manually and taking a listen. I have too many emails from people where their auto calibration system does something very very strange to the EQ and they have to turn it off to get good sound...KEN


Thank you! I have tried using an spl and did not like it. I like Audyssey better. I will calibrate all 6 positions only at main listening position. 
What difference should I notice from calibrating at all positions vs only at main position?


----------



## Sonnie

Check out our very detailed and comprehensive Audyssey FAQ and Setup Guide. We spent months creating it and it is rock solid.


----------



## asere

Sonnie said:


> Check out our very detailed and comprehensive Audyssey FAQ and Setup Guide. We spent months creating it and it is rock solid.


Thank you Sonnie.


----------



## kenny powers

recruit said:


> A single one here, hoping to make it a Duo at some point in the future and that will be my bass nirvana for me
> 
> 
> http://s182.photobucket.com/user/recruit1971/media/newiphone4s008_zpsa6530d2c.jpg.html
> 
> Demo List
> 
> DVD-Audio & SACD's
> 
> Herbie Hancock - Gershwins World SACD 5.1
> The Band - The Last Waltz DVD-Audio 5.1
> Train my Private Nation - SACD 5.1
> Steely Dan - Two Against Nature DVD-Audio 5.1
> Steely Dan - Gaucho DVD-Audio 5.1
> Jean Michelle Jarre Areo - DVD-Audio 5.1
> Organ Spectular - DVD-Audio 5.1
> Yes - Close to the Edge SACD 5.1
> Spyro Gyra - Wrapped in a Dream SACD 5.1
> Spyro Gyra - Original Cinema SACD 5.1
> Steve Wilson - Grace for Drowning DVD-Audio 5.1
> Yello - Touch DVD-Audio 5.1
> Yello - Stella DVD-Audio 5.1
> Horizon & Friends Late Night Chill out Lounge - SACD 5.1
> Randy Newman Little Criminals - DVD-Audio 5.1
> 
> Blu Ray Demo
> 
> Dolby - The sound of High Definition II BD - Dolby True HD
> Dolby - The sound of High Definition 3 BD - Dolby True HD
> The Police - Live in Concert - the infamous disc that you all must have by now and one that I have been using when I had the MX5100SF and it sounds even better with the new DXD subs.
> 
> This is just a few of my music DVD-Audio's and SACD's which are a few of my favourite since getting the DXD808 but don't forget you can also listen to them in 2 channel as well


Thanks for the list mate, will try to check some of them out.


----------



## recruit

No problem Andrew, one of my favorites recently has been Steve Wilson - Grace for Drowning DVD-Audio 5.1, it sounds especially good and the bass has so much energy to it, very good one indeed


----------



## Darkmatter

Sigh taking a while to find the funds for a second 808! I think i am settled on a second 808 rather than the upgrade to a 12012, just taking a while to get there! Decided to veto the upgrade for my Onkyo 818 to a emotiva umc200+XPA5 in favor of upgrading the subs.


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> Sigh taking a while to find the funds for a second 808! I think i am settled on a second 808 rather than the upgrade to a 12012, just taking a while to get there! Decided to veto the upgrade for my Onkyo 818 to a emotiva umc200+XPA5 in favor of upgrading the subs.


Yes, the upgrade of the sub I think will reap you the most satisfaction tbh, I am the same just need to count those pennies again Lol!


----------



## recruit

So any more pictures of KK subs in there set ups guys?


----------



## Darkmatter

I do, but do i have to host it on an external site as it used for a url when i tried to attach it on here? Also what do you think are the benefits of the side driver facing a surface? I know it was designed that way, but why? Does it use the wall as a diafram to bounce the sound off?


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> I do, but do i have to host it on an external site as it used for a url when i tried to attach it on here? Also what do you think are the benefits of the side driver facing a surface? I know it was designed that way, but why? Does it use the wall as a diafram to bounce the sound off?


You do not need to host the pictures on another site, if you scroll down you will see a button that says "Upload and Manage Files and Images" just click on that and upload your picture, it will then be attached to your post.

I think Ken has already made it pretty clear what it does when placing the sub close to the wall, it couples the subwoofer to the room better.


----------



## kenny powers

recruit said:


> So any more pictures of KK subs in there set ups guys?


Yes, get em posted up here chaps!  Don't upload them using tinypic via an ipad though or you'll get upside down pictures like I did!


----------



## Darkmatter

recruit said:


> I think Ken has already made it pretty clear what it does when placing the sub close to the wall, it couples the subwoofer to the room better.



"The side of the DXD cabinet with the side driver is designed to be optimally placed 2-4" from the wall, preferably in a good solid corner of the room. For most rooms, I usually recommend first locating the DXD in the closest solid corner to your primary listening position. So, if the closest solid corner (no nearby openings like an open door) is in the back of the room, try it there first. "

It just states the site driver is designed to be placed 2-4" from a wall, i find this interesting as the majority of the articles i've ever read on subwoofer placement state that bass frequencies are omni directional, so if i had a forward firing sub and rotated it. It would still sound the same, its why downwarrd firing or forward firing also makes little difference. So with that i fully understand why the sub should be place in a "good solid corner" to improve its coupling with the room, but what difference will it make rotating it 90 degrees? So the driver is firing ino the room instead of into a wall.


----------



## Darkmatter

Some pictures of my setup.


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> "The side of the DXD cabinet with the side driver is designed to be optimally placed 2-4" from the wall, preferably in a good solid corner of the room. For most rooms, I usually recommend first locating the DXD in the closest solid corner to your primary listening position. So, if the closest solid corner (no nearby openings like an open door) is in the back of the room, try it there first. "
> 
> It just states the site driver is designed to be placed 2-4" from a wall, i find this interesting as the majority of the articles i've ever read on subwoofer placement state that bass frequencies are omni directional, so if i had a forward firing sub and rotated it. It would still sound the same, its why downwarrd firing or forward firing also makes little difference. So with that i fully understand why the sub should be place in a "good solid corner" to improve its coupling with the room, but what difference will it make rotating it 90 degrees? So the driver is firing ino the room instead of into a wall.


That will depend on a multitude of things, like the size of the room / construction type / furnishings / all of these with have there own attenuation on the performance of the sub woofer, but as Ken has already stated his designs are meant for corner placement or near it which is its optimal placement.


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> Some pictures of my setup.


WOW - That is a brilliant set up you have there Darkmatter and the sub woofer looks really cool located there, very nice indeed :T


----------



## Audiofan1

Darkmatter said:


> "The side of the DXD cabinet with the side driver is designed to be optimally placed 2-4" from the wall, preferably in a good solid corner of the room. For most rooms, I usually recommend first locating the DXD in the closest solid corner to your primary listening position. So, if the closest solid corner (no nearby openings like an open door) is in the back of the room, try it there first. "
> 
> It just states the site driver is designed to be placed 2-4" from a wall, i find this interesting as the majority of the articles i've ever read on subwoofer placement state that bass frequencies are omni directional, so if i had a forward firing sub and rotated it. It would still sound the same, its why downwarrd firing or forward firing also makes little difference. So with that i fully understand why the sub should be place in a "good solid corner" to improve its coupling with the room, but what difference will it make rotating it 90 degrees? So the driver is firing ino the room instead of into a wall.


And that my friend is the million dollar question and I suspect time domain and group delay ??


----------



## Audiofan1

recruit said:


> WOW - That is a brilliant set up you have there Darkmatter and the sub woofer looks really cool located there, very nice indeed :T


+1 sweet setup!


----------



## recruit

Audiofan1 said:


> And that my friend is the million dollar question and I suspect time domain and group delay ??


The time domain and group delay response times will be affected when placed in different locations, usually with the flattest response I would suggest that the group delay and impulse response times are at there best.


----------



## Audiofan1

recruit said:


> The time domain and group delay response times will be affected when placed in different locations, usually with the flattest response I would suggest that the group delay and impulse response times are at there best.


Helps with room modes as well right ?


----------



## recruit

Audiofan1 said:


> Helps with room modes as well right ?


No, room modes are something that is created by the boundaries of the room with the multiples of sign waves forming at certain frequencies which create a room mode, this is why trying to achieve the best location to the nearest corner is recommended to try and achieve the flattest response, your ears are the best measuring device and usually tells you when something does not sound right, and moving the sub can usually make all the difference away from the corner usually helps but still facing the wall.


----------



## Darkmatter

Thanks for the compliments. In regards to the rotating 90 degrees i think the real answer is only known to ken himself. It makes no difference to the frequency response or time delay.

I have a simulated response for the room. Originally i had the sub in the front right corner under the right speaker, i found it intergrates better in the front left. The simulated response is also much better.


----------



## Audiofan1

recruit said:


> No, room modes are something that is created by the boundaries of the room with the multiples of sign waves forming at certain frequencies which create a room mode, this is why trying to achieve the best location to the nearest corner is recommended to try and achieve the flattest response, your ears are the best measuring device and usually tells you when something does not sound right, and moving the sub can usually make all the difference away from the corner usually helps but still facing the wall.


Tell me about it I spent the better part of an afternoon fine tuning my DXD down to approximately 6 I/3" from the rear of the wall and 2 3/4 of an inch from the side as I used music to determine the best overall balance, with the M&K MX150 Mk2 it replaced this was not so and it benefited at almost 11" all around in the same corner which I determined many years ago as the best for subs, I hope to get some pics up soon .


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> Thanks for the compliments. In regards to the rotating 90 degrees i think the real answer is only known to ken himself. It makes no difference to the frequency response or time delay.
> 
> I have a simulated response for the room. Originally i had the sub in the front right corner under the right speaker, i found it intergrates better in the front left. The simulated response is also much better.


I think you may be partly right there Darkmatter, Ken subs are unique in certain ways and deliver a very clean response which gives it such great impact in movies but are also lightning quick and articulate for music, he will not give away all his secrets


----------



## Darkmatter

A word of advice to other owners. Yesterday after i had turned off my AVR i decided i would turn off the sub using the wall power switch, i turned it back on later in the evening (normally its on 24/7 in the always on) and it didn't come back alive, turns out turning it off/on at the wall blew the fuse. Quick trip down to maplins sorted it out.


----------



## Darkmatter

Recruit, from your experience with subwoofers, what would you sya the depth of the 808 compares to? (someone asked me this and i am interested to see what another owner felt about it)


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> Recruit, from your experience with subwoofers, what would you sya the depth of the 808 compares to? (someone asked me this and i am interested to see what another owner felt about it)


Well, I have had a fair few subwoofers in my time and from different manufacturers but mostly M&K, and from memory this sub is more impressive than my previous MX350MKII that I had, you have to take into account this in my room and this DXD808 performs brilliantly, also I would say from the last sub I had which was also NO slouch a Martin Logan Depth i, I prefer the bass from the KK which has more impact and power!


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> A word of advice to other owners. Yesterday after i had turned off my AVR i decided i would turn off the sub using the wall power switch, i turned it back on later in the evening (normally its on 24/7 in the always on) and it didn't come back alive, turns out turning it off/on at the wall blew the fuse. Quick trip down to maplins sorted it out.


This might not necessarily be a problem with the subs short blow fuse blowing too quickly, but more likely a problem within your own main supply as this does not happen when I have switched on & off, saying that only done it twice! but it might mean you have some problem within that mains ring that the sub is off?


----------



## recruit

I just thought I would post this as I do like this review as it combines both the DXD808 & 12012 

http://www.laaudiofile.com/kkreisel_subwoofers.html


----------



## Darkmatter

Its another good review. I wish i could find more reviews comparing a single and a duo!


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> Its another good review. I wish i could find more reviews comparing a single and a duo!


The review here by Jman was very good and thorough, sorry I'm on my iPhone ATM so difficult to link to, but I think it is the best one yet comparing the 808 as a single and then a DUO, check it out in the hardware review section!

As soon as I can get another one then I will make sure I do a thorough review also


----------



## Darkmatter

I found the review wasn't quite as much a comparison between single and duo. It was more a review of the duo... Maybe i need to re read it!


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> I found the review wasn't quite as much a comparison between single and duo. It was more a review of the duo... Maybe i need to re read it!


Well it's the closest that there is out there ATM until some one else does one


----------



## Darkmatter

Its a shame, i felt it was a huge missed opportunity for the reviewer to do a a b comparison of single vs duo as he had them both there setup.... Oh well, its a shame as the majority of reviewers seemed to do single or quattro and that's a huge price difference! I cant imagine i am the only one wondering about going form a single to a duo.


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> Its a shame, i felt it was a huge missed opportunity for the reviewer to do a a b comparison of single vs duo as he had them both there setup.... Oh well, its a shame as the majority of reviewers seemed to do single or quattro and that's a huge price difference! I cant imagine i am the only one wondering about going form a single to a duo.


Your not I'm sure, to me the way I see it anyway from my point of view, was to purchase a single DXD808 because of the size and it's performance potential, and then purchase another to make the DUO to get the fully balanced 3D Push-Pull-Pulsar Deep Bass which is how Ken designed these subs to work, and then I will be happy


----------



## Peter Loeser

recruit said:


> ...and then I will be happy


I didn't know this hobby allowed such an achievement! :bigsmile:


----------



## recruit

Peter Loeser said:


> I didn't know this hobby allowed such an achievement! :bigsmile:


Hahaha...It's like the famous last words Peter :help:


----------



## asere

Going to watch Oblivion tomorrow. It will be a warm up for my 12012


----------



## recruit

asere said:


> Going to watch Oblivion tomorrow. It will be a warm up for my 12012


Watched that the other night and it certainly has some very decent bass moments in it, not too bad a film either


----------



## asere

recruit said:


> Watched that the other night and it certainly has some very decent bass moments in it, not too bad a film either


Cool


----------



## recruit

asere said:


> Cool


Your 12012 asere should make mince meat of it, lap it up


----------



## Audiofan1

I'm going to check out "Solomon Kane" tonight with my 10th run of Audyssey:coocoo: which had to to first sound good with music and I must say not bad at all :clap: And for the life of me I can't figure out how to get some pic posted :scratch: i tried resizing and now it says the files still to large :crying: I'll keep at though !


----------



## asere

Audiofan1 said:


> I'm going to check out "Solomon Kane" tonight with my 10th run of Audyssey:coocoo: which had to to first sound good with music and I must say not bad at all :clap: And for the life of me I can't figure out how to get some pic posted :scratch: i tried resizing and now it says the files still to large :crying: I'll keep at though !


Is Solomon Kane a good movie?


----------



## B- one

Audiofan1 said:


> I'm going to check out "Solomon Kane" tonight with my 10th run of Audyssey:coocoo: which had to to first sound good with music and I must say not bad at all :clap: And for the life of me I can't figure out how to get some pic posted :scratch: i tried resizing and now it says the files still to large :crying: I'll keep at though !


I use an I phone and in the options forum posting JPG-smaller attachment quality-tiny resolution works for me. Hope that helps. I also wonder how good Solomon Kane is and do you have the bluray or DVD?


----------



## theJman

Darkmatter said:


> Its a shame, i felt it was a huge missed opportunity for the reviewer to do a a b comparison of single vs duo as he had them both there setup.... Oh well, its a shame as the majority of reviewers seemed to do single or quattro and that's a huge price difference! I cant imagine i am the only one wondering about going form a single to a duo.


The reviewer actually did quite a bit of single vs dual comparison, but it was strictly in private. 

Ken asked that I do the evaluation as a duo, which is what I ultimately published. While I had them I did try it both ways though. Trust me, duals are the way to go; and I'm not just talking about the added 6dB or so output advantage from co-location. The stacked pair take on an entirely different character vis-a-vis a single. Like what one of his subs does for you? Try the duo. You can thank me later... :T


----------



## Audiofan1

B- one said:


> I use an I phone and in the options forum posting JPG-smaller attachment quality-tiny resolution works for me. Hope that helps. I also wonder how good Solomon Kane is and do you have the bluray or DVD?


Thanks! I'll give that a shot, as for Solomon Kane I got the bluray it was just released on Netflix, I hope its as good as the impending hype was for its release. I'm still not sure how I missed it back in 2009.


----------



## B- one

Audiofan1 said:


> Thanks! I'll give that a shot, as for Solomon Kane I got the bluray it was just released on Netflix, I hope its as good as the impending hype was for its release. I'm still not sure how I missed it back in 2009.


I will check it out on Netflix then we can buy it if we like it.


----------



## Darkmatter

theJman said:


> The reviewer actually did quite a bit of single vs dual comparison, but it was strictly in private.
> 
> Ken asked that I do the evaluation as a duo, which is what I ultimately published. While I had them I did try it both ways though. Trust me, duals are the way to go; and I'm not just talking about the added 6dB or so output advantage from co-location. The stacked pair take on an entirely different character vis-a-vis a single. Like what one of his subs does for you? Try the duo. You can thank me later... :T


Very interesting, thanks for your views! Nice to finally speak to someone who has used a duo and single! I wonder why ken asked for no single vs duo and just wanted it to be reviewed as the duo.... Hmm. Why in the review did you use the bass level control on the back of the sub as opposed to the reference level setting?


----------



## recruit

theJman said:


> The reviewer actually did quite a bit of single vs dual comparison, but it was strictly in private.
> 
> Ken asked that I do the evaluation as a duo, which is what I ultimately published. While I had them I did try it both ways though. Trust me, duals are the way to go; and I'm not just talking about the added 6dB or so output advantage from co-location. The stacked pair take on an entirely different character vis-a-vis a single. Like what one of his subs does for you? Try the duo. You can thank me later... :T





Darkmatter said:


> Very interesting, thanks for your views! Nice to finally speak to someone who has used a duo and single! I wonder why ken asked for no single vs duo and just wanted it to be reviewed as the duo.... Hmm. Why in the review did you use the bass level control on the back of the sub as opposed to the reference level setting?


This is exactly why my initials thoughts were to go with a single and then move it on to a DUO so as to benefit from Ken's incredible knowledge and performance increase that it gives


----------



## Darkmatter

I agree recruit, unfortunately i do have to justify my purchases  the wife kind of notices if £1000+ vanishes from the account lol. So its all about value for money. The good thing is, she was very impressed by the 808 so i am hoping from what has been said she will be even more impressed by the duo and feel it was money well spent!


----------



## kenny powers

Darkmatter said:


> I agree recruit, unfortunately i do have to justify my purchases  the wife kind of notices if £1000+ vanishes from the account lol. So its all about value for money. The good thing is, she was very impressed by the 808 so i am hoping from what has been said she will be even more impressed by the duo and feel it was money well spent!


Well you're ahead of me then mate, my wife thinks mine is an ugly black box and doesn't understand why it has to be so big. :help: :bigsmile:


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter said:


> I agree recruit, unfortunately i do have to justify my purchases  the wife kind of notices if £1000+ vanishes from the account lol. So its all about value for money. The good thing is, she was very impressed by the 808 so i am hoping from what has been said she will be even more impressed by the duo and feel it was money well spent!


I'm exactly the same as you, and still have to justify what I am spending so no different, now a days money is a lot more restricted than it used to be, so I still have be careful and that is also why I am doing it in stages


----------



## recruit

kenny powers said:


> Well you're ahead of me then mate, my wife thinks mine is an ugly black box and doesn't understand why it has to be so big. :help: :bigsmile:


:rofl: 

Edit: Sorry its a typical woman response to say something like that Andrew


----------



## kenny powers

recruit said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Edit: Sorry its a typical woman response to say something like that Andrew


Isn't it just! You can imagine her reaction when I showed her the stack in Russell's house and how I dreamed of owning 4 one day! :bigsmile:


----------



## recruit

kenny powers said:


> Isn't it just! You can imagine her reaction when I showed her the stack in Russell's house and how I dreamed of owning 4 one day! :bigsmile:


Lol, Just mate


----------



## Darkmatter

kenny powers said:


> Well you're ahead of me then mate, my wife thinks mine is an ugly black box and doesn't understand why it has to be so big. :help: :bigsmile:


Fortunately my wife is quite accepting of AV Stuff, as long as i am considerate to how the room looks its fine. She enjoys bassy dance music so selling a sub to her is no where near as hard as selling the idea of a projector/big tv! The problem is the whole "but i thought we bought a sub" argument will come in when a second is suggested and kens talk about the 3d push pull array etc may not impress her quite as much as it would impress myself! lol


----------



## theJman

Darkmatter said:


> Very interesting, thanks for your views! Nice to finally speak to someone who has used a duo and single! I wonder why ken asked for no single vs duo and just wanted it to be reviewed as the duo.... Hmm.


The easiest way for me to answer this one would be to say; once you hear the duo you'll know why he asked me to test it that way. :T If you notice, a lot of the KK sub reviews are like that - there's at least a duo being tested. Having first hand experience with a single and a pair I do understand why he suggests that configuration.

FWIW, Bag End - another company that makes studio monitor quality products - is similar. I have an ID18 Pro that will be reviewed in the not too distant future. Their chief of engineering flat out told me they recommend nothing less than duals, and having spent a little time with this one I understand his position. Ken is slightly different though; he strongly suggests duals, but doesn't require them. The reasoning behind their respective philosophies is probably similar.




Darkmatter said:


> Why in the review did you use the bass level control on the back of the sub as opposed to the reference level setting?


Simply because I wanted a bit more out of the subs. I try to leave the AVR output level at 0dB and use the gain on the sub to tailor the response. If you turn the AVR output up much beyond 0dB you have a greater potential to introduce distortion than if you turn up the amplifier itself, so I always opt to tune via the sub controls.


----------



## recruit

It is never recommended to take the trim level on the processor side into the + figures as you will run the risk of introducing distortion, but in theory every room is different and requires different settings to obtain the necessary 75db SPL how you get to this magic number can be done in many ways, but I would always suggest an SPL meter as a basic requirement


----------



## Darkmatter

theJman said:


> Simply because I wanted a bit more out of the subs. I try to leave the AVR output level at 0dB and use the gain on the sub to tailor the response. If you turn the AVR output up much beyond 0dB you have a greater potential to introduce distortion than if you turn up the amplifier itself, so I always opt to tune via the sub controls.


This doesn't make perfect sense to me. According to Kens answers i am sure he said in order for the subs to be perfectly matched ina DUO or QUATTRO stack, it is better to use the green dot position as then they will be perfectly matched. If you use the bass level dial 0db on one is not 0db on another, so they are not perfectly matched. 

Also i am kind of confused as to why if there in the green dot position they would require the AVR to boost the subwoofer channel. Most people using a RCA-RCA connector have to put the trim to -10 to -12, if you use a RCA-XLR that equates to -4 to -6. So i would agree that its not good to boost channels but i don't see why you would have to with it set to the green dot position, especially not with the DUO.


I know there is many ways to reach the 75db figure, but to me with the KK subs it seems recommended you use the green dot position and use the AVR to trim it accordinly.


----------



## recruit

There is no set way in calibrating subs, well in stone anyway as there is so many variables to be calibrated and the size of room what processor/avr you are using will all make a difference to the outcome but generally I would leave the subs in there green dot position myself when calibrating and adjust manually my processor and set it from there.


----------



## theJman

I never said the subs were at two different gain levels, so I'm not sure where you're getting that information from. They were set identically.

The green dots are strictly for reference and are not a mandated setting. The reason you're given the ability to make adjustments is to tailor the output to your own wants and needs. If the sound level you're currently achieving is what you like when everything is set at the defaults then you're good to go. For others, like myself, it wasn't, so I adjusted accordingly. Certainly nothing wrong with that.

If the AVR trim goes above 0dB you run the risk of introducing distortion, something that doesn't occur by adjusting the subwoofer level. That's why I always choose to fine tune with the latter.


----------



## theJman

recruit said:


> There is no set way in calibrating subs, well in stone anyway as there is so many variables to be calibrated and the size of room what processor/avr you are using will all make a difference to the outcome but generally I would leave the subs in there green dot position myself when calibrating and adjust manually my processor and set it from there.


And that's precisely what I did; level match, calibrate, adjust to taste.


----------



## Darkmatter

theJman said:


> I never said the subs were at two different gain levels, so I'm not sure where you're getting that information from. They were set identically.
> 
> The green dots are strictly for reference and are not a mandated setting. The reason you're given the ability to make adjustments is to tailor the output to your own wants and needs. If the sound level you're currently achieving is what you like when everything is set at the defaults then you're good to go. For others, like myself, it wasn't, so I adjusted accordingly. Certainly nothing wrong with that.
> 
> If the AVR trim goes above 0dB you run the risk of introducing distortion, something that doesn't occur by adjusting the subwoofer level. That's why I always choose to fine tune with the latter.


I will see if i can find the quote from ken about the "reference level" setting on the subs. It might of been in another review, but the point was that no two subs volume dials are identical, 0db on one, will not result in the same SPL from another even if in the exact same location etc etc. So the reference level was designed to by pass the bass level so you end up with two subwoofers perfectly matched. 

I am interested to what you mean by adjustments to tailor your own needs and wants? What benefits are you getting from using the dial? I understand avoiding going into extream trims (over -12 or above 0) but if you where not getting either of those two situations then i dont understand why. 

I never said there was anything wrong, i just wanted to understand the thought pattern / engineering decisions behind why you did it.


----------



## recruit

Darkmatter - I think once you actually get a second sub you will find that you will just play with the settings so that you fully understand how they are both contributing to the bass level and then you will be happy and have a better understanding of how it all comes together 

I have have quite a few 2 sub setups and the easiest ones to get right were the Velodyne DD12's as they have built in EQ and phase adjustments that you could see visually on screen so you knew how both subs were interacting together, with the DXD they are slightly more complicated but you should be fine!


----------



## theJman

Darkmatter said:


> I will see if i can find the quote from ken about the "reference level" setting on the subs. It might of been in another review, but the point was that no two subs volume dials are identical, 0db on one, will not result in the same SPL from another even if in the exact same location etc etc. So the reference level was designed to by pass the bass level so you end up with two subwoofers perfectly matched.
> 
> I am interested to what you mean by adjustments to tailor your own needs and wants? What benefits are you getting from using the dial? I understand avoiding going into extream trims (over -12 or above 0) but if you where not getting either of those two situations then i dont understand why.
> 
> I never said there was anything wrong, i just wanted to understand the thought pattern / engineering decisions behind why you did it.


If all dials are inaccurate how do you know the green dot is really 0dB? 

There's probably some truth that extremely minor variations in those adjustments exist, but I don't see where it would be all that significant for music or HT. Something like that is probably important if you're in the studio mastering a soundtrack, where precision is of the utmost importance, but if you're watching WOTW it won't really be evident. Just because something can be measured with sophisticated equipment doesn't necessarily have any bearing on your listening experience. For the most part, if I can't hear the difference then I don't worry about it. That's my philosophy anyway; getting 1 extra dB at 20Hz might seem to be an advantage for the "bench racers", but you won't hear it so it's of little consequence for anything other than bragging rights.

I think Ken would probably be the first to tell you that he doesn't design anything to satisfy people who purchase products by looking strictly at the numbers. He's all about quality of sound, not quantity (hence the reason he recommends two or more). While some of what makes his creations sound so good can be shown on charts, other aspects can't. I'm good with that - the ears are supposed to decide anyway.


----------



## recruit

Eloquently put Jim


----------



## Darkmatter

I disagree on a few points but as i don't think i have explained what i meant very well so i will just leave it at that.

I will add i do have experience of two sub setups as i owned one for 4-5 months.


----------



## theJman

Darkmatter said:


> I disagree on a few points but as i don't think i have explained what i meant very well so i will just leave it at that.


I suppose we're each missing the others point. If you would like to discuss it further we certainly can, but if you would rather leave it be I understand. Either way is fine by me.


----------



## asere

The 12012 was awesome with oblivion.


----------



## Dale Rasco

Agreed! Oblivion has some stupid (good) bass and the 12012 nails it!


----------



## Peter Loeser

Dale Rasco said:


> Agreed! Oblivion has some stupid (good) bass and the 12012 nails it!


Did you decide to keep it?


----------



## Audiofan1

Tell me about it! this was a movie that will show a good sub from a lesser sub , not only did it have to cleanly keep up with the differentiating bass notes in that wonderful music score but the overly complex 50 shades of bass in the movie itself :gulp: The DXD12012 was a Chameleon on Oblivion and brought new meaning to the expression fast, deep, extended room filling bass :flex:


----------



## Dale Rasco

Peter Loeser said:


> Did you decide to keep it?


Sure did!


----------



## recruit

Dale Rasco said:


> Sure did!


Good choice hey Dale :bigsmile:


----------



## asere

I watched the MTV VMA Awards the other night. I don't care much about the show but watched it to see the KK12012 perform and I tell you as you all know. This sub delivers! Clean, tight, note for note. :clap::T


----------



## lesmor

Hi this is my first post here, good to see some familiar names from the UK
Was disappointed to hear that Frank Harvey lost their dealership as I was hoping for a demo which is now impossible.
I am considering a DXD 12012 ( or two ) and one other alternative manufacturer which I won't name as it would then go off thread.

Would I be right in thinking you can only use these as a Duo if they are connected with the balanced XLR connections?
My AVR ( ONKYO 5010 ) only has RCA unbalanced outputs , and I also understand ( looking at the alternative Sub ) that you should not use a XLR adapter but this could be incorrect as far as KK subs are concerned
I have two MK Sound MX 350's at the moment but really fancy a real KK designed system instead of a copy.
Thanks in advance


----------



## recruit

lesmor said:


> Hi this is my first post here, good to see some familiar names from the UK
> Was disappointed to hear that Frank Harvey lost their dealership as I was hoping for a demo which is now impossible.
> I am considering a DXD 12012 ( or two ) and one other alternative manufacturer which I won't name as it would then go off thread.
> 
> Would I be right in thinking you can only use these as a Duo if they are connected with the balanced XLR connections?
> My AVR ( ONKYO 5010 ) only has RCA unbalanced outputs , and I also understand ( looking at the alternative Sub ) that you should not use a XLR adapter but this could be incorrect as far as KK subs are concerned
> I have two MK Sound MX 350's at the moment but really fancy a real KK designed system instead of a copy.
> Thanks in advance


Hi Lesmor,

Welcome matey, they would be best utilized if you were to purchase a pair and use then as a DUO set up, but the XLR inputs make it possible to pass through the signal, but you do not have to use them specifically as a DUO set up as you could run them as a pair either side or back and front.

I do not see any reason why you cannot use an XLR adapter from the AVR and then XLR to XLR from subs.


----------



## lesmor

recruit said:


> Hi Lesmor,
> 
> Welcome matey, they would be best utilized if you were to purchase a pair and use then as a DUO set up, but the XLR inputs make it possible to pass through the signal, but you do not have to use them specifically as a DUO set up as you could run them as a pair either side or back and front.
> 
> I do not see any reason why you cannot use an XLR adapter from the AVR and then XLR to XLR from subs.


Hi Recruit
Thanks for the reply
I don't suppose you can use the RCA unbalanced input and then use the XLR to XLR pass through can you?

I noticed Kens explanation re RCA v XLR but ended up confused ( Which for me is not hard ) so wondered if there was any issues with a RCA cable to XLR Adapter, and then XLR XLR Pass through with regard to his post

As stated the alternative sub were specific about not using a XLR adapter for a master and slave and this would not be possible unless balanced XLR was used ( I suspect probably specific to the sub design )

I am trying to stay on thread but need to get my head round the connection combinations as its better to have one cable run then a short interconnect to the second Sub ( DUO )


----------



## recruit

lesmor said:


> I don't suppose you can use the RCA unbalanced input and then use the XLR to XLR pass through can you?


I would certainly hope so or else it would certainly leave a big problem for a lot of people who do not have XLR connections.

Basically the pass through does exactly what it says on the tin so if you were to feed it with a signal via RCA it would then pass it on via the XLR connections


----------



## lesmor

recruit said:


> I would certainly hope so or else it would certainly leave a big problem for a lot of people who do not have XLR connections.
> 
> Basically the pass through does exactly what it says on the tin so if you were to feed it with a signal via RCA it would then pass it on via the XLR connections


Hi Recruit

So RCA cable to RCA input then XLR interconnect to XLR out XLR Pass through works
Thanks for clearing that up

By the way have you got your second DXD 808 yet?
I enjoyed your review of the 808 and really impressed with what I've read on these subs


----------



## recruit

lesmor said:


> Hi Recruit
> 
> So RCA cable to RCA input then XLR interconnect to XLR out XLR Pass through works
> Thanks for clearing that up
> 
> By the way have you got your second DXD 808 yet?
> I enjoyed your review of the 808 and really impressed with what I've read on these subs


Hi Lesmor,

I would certainly think so.

Thanks for your kind comments regarding my review, No I have not got a second one yet but I'm hoping to have one before Xmas, fingers crossed 

These subs really are impressive and the real deal when it comes to quality bass, Ken certainly knows how to deliver that one in spades, in all his subs I have had in the past these new ones really do hit hard but have the quality to go with it :T


----------



## Audiofan1

recruit said:


> Hi Lesmor,
> 
> I would certainly think so.
> 
> Thanks for your kind comments regarding my review, No I have not got a second one yet but I'm hoping to have one before Xmas, fingers crossed
> 
> These subs really are impressive and the real deal when it comes to quality bass, Ken certainly knows how to deliver that one in spades, in all his subs I have had in the past these new ones really do hit hard but have the quality to go with it :T


Couldn't have said it better:T


----------



## oakboy37

Dont know how I missed this?


Anyway im in uk with a single dxd12012, bought from Hifix, great service from them, and a great product from KK!


----------



## Thedus

Greetings all! I'm new here to the forum, and I just wanted to share some thoughts on my DXD-12012. I have owned this sub since January, and it has been an exemplary performer in my sound system. My previous sub was the M&K MX-350 MKII, which I traded in towards the DXD-12012. Honestly I can't share much more new insight beyond what has already been said about this product. The 12012 is a clean, powerful, accurate subwoofer. My room is a little unusual, in that it has no back wall. The home theater opens into the dining room, and because of this, I don't feel I can take full advantage of the corner-loading. Measurements I have taken with XTZ seem to confirm this. Despite this, the 12012 has been able to energize my home theater with some pretty impressive bass. I'll continue my impressions a little later and add a few pics!


----------



## recruit

Welcome Thedus and great to see you on the forum :T look forward to some pictures


----------



## lesmor

Thedus said:


> Greetings all! I'm new here to the forum, and I just wanted to share some thoughts on my DXD-12012. I have owned this sub since January, and it has been an exemplary performer in my sound system. My previous sub was the M&K MX-350 MKII, which I traded in towards the DXD-12012. Honestly I can't share much more new insight beyond what has already been said about this product. The 12012 is a clean, powerful, accurate subwoofer. My room is a little unusual, in that it has no back wall. The home theater opens into the dining room, and because of this, I don't feel I can take full advantage of the corner-loading. Measurements I have taken with XTZ seem to confirm this. Despite this, the 12012 has been able to energize my home theater with some pretty impressive bass. I'll continue my impressions a little later and add a few pics!


Hi Thedus
Looking forward to the pics
If I get my MK Sound-350's sold a couple of DXD 2012's are on my shortlist
I'd be interested in seeing any graphs you might have using the XTZ ( Which I also have ) as its off thread perhaps you could PM them?


----------



## Thedus

Thank you for the greetings! Lesmor, if you can swing it, grab a 12012. You wont be disappointed. Do you live in the States? If so, take advantage of Kens trade-in program! Here are some of those pics I promised. I'm considering trying the front right corner position for the sub again, behind the speaker. Perhaps this weekend if I'm free I'll measure the changes and post my results...


----------



## recruit

Looks fantastic Thedus, and with the solid ST1/S150 stands it looks the business, one serious set up indeed :T


----------



## lesmor

Hi Thedus
Great pics
Yes I'm from the UK so trade in is not an option you guys are spoiled in that regard
I also love the stands have never seen these in the UK

One question that has always puzzled me and I have looked at many pictures to try and find a definitive answer is 

*How do you properly orientate S-150 speakers?*

It would appear that you have yours all in the same plane
It would also appear from THX images that I have seen that the tweeters should be on the inside meaning that one of the outside speakers should be inverted
I have also looked a photos of studios that use S-150's but there seems no consistency i.e tweeters on the inside tweeters on the outside
I would have thought that because of the design there has to be a correct way to have these speakers aligned?
For what its worth I have my S-150's with the tweeters on the inside as I was fed up swapping them trying to emulate photos I had seen
All this might seem pointless but I just want to get things right


----------



## recruit

Lesmor - IIRC when I had the S150 with ST1 stands there where at the time an updated version of the S150 where the tweeter arrangement was changed from facing inwards to the outside of the L/R versions of the S150's I cannot remember what the reason for the change was but maybe Ken could enlighten us?


----------



## lesmor

recruit said:


> Lesmor - IIRC when I had the S150 with ST1 stands there where at the time an updated version of the S150 where the tweeter arrangement was changed from facing inwards to the outside of the L/R versions of the S150's I cannot remember what the reason for the change was but maybe Ken could enlighten us?


Hi Recruit
Thanks for the reply
I did not think there was a Left and Right S-150 ( Other than the angled version ) 
I should have perhaps clarified that that it is the MK Sound S-150's that I have, and they perhaps bear no resemblance to the originals ( Although MK Sound advertising would have you think otherwise, I also notice in this months HCC review they have even gone back to the name M&K?)


----------



## Audiofan1

Thedus said:


> Thank you for the greetings! Lesmor, if you can swing it, grab a 12012. You wont be disappointed. Do you live in the States? If so, take advantage of Kens trade-in program! Here are some of those pics I promised. I'm considering trying the front right corner position for the sub again, behind the speaker. Perhaps this weekend if I'm free I'll measure the changes and post my results...


Nice setup! :T


----------



## recruit

lesmor said:


> Hi Recruit
> Thanks for the reply
> I did not think there was a Left and Right S-150 ( Other than the angled version )
> I should have perhaps clarified that that it is the MK Sound S-150's that I have, and they perhaps bear no resemblance to the originals ( Although MK Sound advertising would have you think otherwise, I also notice in this months HCC review they have even gone back to the name M&K?)


Ah I see Lesmor, I thought you had the original M&K's not the copies Lol !


----------



## Thedus

There were a few variations of color and design on the M&K S-150 during production. The most common one is the angled baffles with "wide" diffraction foam. After M&Ks move to Chattsworth CA they expanded their S-150 variations. The tweeters moved to the right hand side of the baffle. They included the angled baffle, the cube, and the angled center-each with different SKUs. M&K also changed their crossovers to allow the user to tailor the S-150s vertical dispersion. (Later models had a toggle switch to make this change.) Because of the dispersion change on the crossover, the baffle foam was minimized. I also recall, and perhaps Ken can chime in on this, M&K playing around with using the open back transmission-line tweeters like the ones on the S-5000 on the S-150 before they shut down!


----------



## recruit

Thedus said:


> There were a few variations of color and design on the M&K S-150 during production. The most common one is the angled baffles with "wide" diffraction foam. After M&Ks move to Chattsworth CA they expanded their S-150 variations. The tweeters moved to the right hand side of the baffle. They included the angled baffle, the cube, and the angled center-each with different SKUs. M&K also changed their crossovers to allow the user to tailor the S-150s vertical dispersion. (Later models had a toggle switch to make this change.) Because of the dispersion change on the crossover, the baffle foam was minimized. I also recall, and perhaps Ken can chime in on this, M&K playing around with using the open back transmission-line tweeters like the ones on the S-5000 on the S-150 before they shut down!


I wish there was a Like button on the page as that is an excellent rundown Thedus of the S150 line of speakers and how they changed over the years, I had the one's with the switch on the back to change the dispersion characteristics :T


----------



## Thedus

Thanks Recruit, there seemed to be a lot of really cool and interesting variations on Kens old M&K products. Makes me very excited to see KK Sound move forward, with designs/concepts that were only touched on at M&K Sound before they shuttered! How may owners here have their DXD corner loaded with the driver facing into the wall? My corners are loaded with GIK Soffit traps, and I'm a bit wary about placing my sub so close to a heavy duty bass absorber. Anyone here have their DXDs near a big bass trap?


----------



## lesmor

Thedus said:


> Thanks Recruit, there seemed to be a lot of really cool and interesting variations on Kens old M&K products. Makes me very excited to see KK Sound move forward, with designs/concepts that were only touched on at M&K Sound before they shuttered! How may owners here have their DXD corner loaded with the driver facing into the wall? My corners are loaded with GIK Soffit traps, and I'm a bit wary about placing my sub so close to a heavy duty bass absorber. Anyone here have their DXDs near a big bass trap?


Great question Thedus
I have GIK Tri-traps in each of my corners, floor to ceiling, which also restricts proper corner positioning for subs
I had to remove one half at the back as it killed the sound from the rear left and back left channels


----------



## Thedus

lesmor said:


> Great question Thedus
> I have GIK Tri-traps in each of my corners, floor to ceiling, which also restricts proper corner positioning for subs
> I had to remove one half at the back as it killed the sound from the rear left and back left channels



I have those traps also! I use them on the upper-half of my front corners. How far away from the Tri-Traps are your subs?


----------



## lesmor

Thedus said:


> I have those traps also! I use them on the upper-half of my front corners. How far away from the Tri-Traps are your subs?


I have one sub firing across the width of the room 2'4" from the left front corner next to a Tri-trap
The second is firing across the width of the room 4' from the rear right corner where the door comes into the room
As the entrance door is across the corner there is no possibility of trapping there.

If I end up with a KK duo setup then the rear left corner would be a possible location, but there are Tri-traps floor to ceiling there, as in the front right corner


----------



## recruit

Lesmor - It is amazing how much energy the new DXD subs generate which translates into some serious pressurizing of the room compared to the old M&K subs, my DXD808 is to me more impressive than my old MX350MKII and cannot wait to make it a DUO of 808's


----------



## asere

In my case I moved the 12012 away from the corner and placed it in the middle of the front wall and it sounds cleaner and tighter.


----------



## lesmor

recruit said:


> Lesmor - It is amazing how much energy the new DXD subs generate which translates into some serious pressurizing of the room compared to the old M&K subs, my DXD808 is to me more impressive than my old MX350MKII and cannot wait to make it a DUO of 808's


Sounds to be just what I am after, room pressurisation and deep bass
They are definitely on my shortlist
Just need to get my existing subs sold


----------



## Thedus

Hmmm...interesting suggestions! I'll be playing around with firing the 12012 into the wall, rather than aimed at the couch. Last time I attempted this, I "felt" the bass to be coupled better in my room. In that case I used several stereo recording of classical pieces to make my decision. Now, however, I have XTZ and the Audyssey Sound Equalizer to aid in finding the more appropriate location. There are many schools of thought on sub placement, but a few of them (including Ken) see corner/wall placement to have the best overall time domain response.

My only concern involves my bass traps somehow impeding the 12012s output if the sub is placed in close proximity to them. I suppose I'll have to check the overall output with XTZ of the 12012 right next to the bass trap, and further along the wall. I have precious few adequate spots to place the sub!

Another question for the fellow users here: Has anyone adjusted their variable phase knob on the DXD in conjunction with their preamp/receivers distance controls? Some phase knobs only operate at a narrow frequency, while others operate along the full response of the subs output. I'm unsure which the DXD operates at. I would assume the DXDs' entire "phase" shifts below the selected crossover frequency that the user selects on the sub itself...


----------



## Audiofan1

Thedus said:


> Hmmm...interesting suggestions! I'll be playing around with firing the 12012 into the wall, rather than aimed at the couch. Last time I attempted this, I "felt" the bass to be coupled better in my room. In that case I used several stereo recording of classical pieces to make my decision. Now, however, I have XTZ and the Audyssey Sound Equalizer to aid in finding the more appropriate location. There are many schools of thought on sub placement, but a few of them (including Ken) see corner/wall placement to have the best overall time domain response.
> 
> My only concern involves my bass traps somehow impeding the 12012s output if the sub is placed in close proximity to them. I suppose I'll have to check the overall output with XTZ of the 12012 right next to the bass trap, and further along the wall. I have precious few adequate spots to place the sub!
> 
> Another question for the fellow users here: Has anyone adjusted their variable phase knob on the DXD in conjunction with their preamp/receivers distance controls? Some phase knobs only operate at a narrow frequency, while others operate along the full response of the subs output. I'm unsure which the DXD operates at. I would assume the DXDs' entire "phase" shifts below the selected crossover frequency that the user selects on the sub itself...


I ran into similar setup obstacles with my bass trap in the corner that sounds best in my room for subs, my previous MX150 mk2 was about 12" from the rear wall and about 11" from the side wall and the 24x24x4 open back bass trap was 18" off the floor across the corner. This did wonders for the 50hz bump in my room! and I had no plans to change it, well the addition of the Marantz 8801 and the upgrade to the DXD12012 would soon change that. I went all in and placed the 12012 in the corner at 6" from the rear wall and 2.5" from the side wall in the right front corner of my room, now this meant the bass trap had to be placed behind the right front speaker where it continued to help for my 2/ch habit I can't let go of :dumbcrazy: So there is the first win, now after fine tuning the 12012 for music without the aid of DRC (Audyssey) I ran the calibration and viola! I have clean, visceral ,articulate and deep, deep bass that locks onto the room and delivers a tympani strike that is very realistic in tone and decay. The most amazing thing is the lower strings and blat form brass that the DXD's are capable of reproducing with the same level of reproduction of a well designed midrange driver :gulp: Yes its that accurate and quick enough that it almost boggles the mind  As you can tell I'm a huge fan of multi/ch classical sacd :Tand its how and what my setup is configured to reproduce well first , this by default has always yielded fantastic movie playback as well.


Bottom line! lose the panel or move it completely away from the corner as the DXD12012 loves its space floor to ceiling. And on the phase , I'd leave it alone if using DRC.

Hope this helps!


----------



## recruit

I think Ken has built some very adaptable subs within the DXD range which are very good with placement but as stated by himself for optimal performance corner placement is the ideal location for the subs to go for and require the sub to fire into the wall, just like the MX5100SF before this gives stunning performance by coupling to the room as if the sub and room were one, but the DXD's being side firing instead!

As Audiofan1 has noted I would leave the phase well alone, unless using 2 subs in different locations it may then come into use.


----------



## Thedus

Upon receiving my DXD-12012 I played with the phase knob to try and align the sub to the mains a little better. Ultimately I settled on keeping the controls on the green dots and haven't looked back since. Who here has a DUO setup? I'm curious to read the opinions of someone who lived with a single DXD for a while, then added a second to make the DUO setup. Hearing the changes by upgrading to the DUO and its benefits first-hand would be interesting!


----------



## recruit

No one here yet, but I will eventually be going to a DUO set up, hopefully in time for Xmas if not sooner.


----------



## lesmor

recruit said:


> No one here yet, but I will eventually be going to a DUO set up, hopefully in time for Xmas if not sooner.


Nice xmas present recruit, looking forward to the updated review


----------



## Audiofan1

+ 1, do let us know the result.


----------



## asere

Best sub! I still can't believe I got the opportunity to own one. Thank you Shack!


----------



## recruit

asere said:


> Best sub! I still can't believe I got the opportunity to own one. Thank you Shack!


Yes, very lucky man indeed asere, saying that The Shack is one of the best forums on the net, letting people enjoy there hobby properly with enthusiasts and not corrupted by other vested interests like some other forums are unfortunately :T


----------



## lesmor

recruit said:


> Yes, very lucky man indeed asere, saying that The Shack is one of the best forums on the net, letting people enjoy there hobby properly with enthusiasts and not corrupted by other vested interests like some other forums are unfortunately :T


+ 1 to that recruit its refreshingly good to hear owners views and discussions uninterrupted with drivel


----------



## oakboy37

recruit said:


> Yes, very lucky man indeed asere, saying that The Shack is one of the best forums on the net, letting people enjoy there hobby properly with enthusiasts and not corrupted by other vested interests like some other forums are unfortunately :T


+2 here!


----------



## recruit

Speaking of serious bass, I have just been listening to Nine Inch Nails album Hesitation Marks in 24bit 96khz and it has some very deep bass, in fact it may be not be everyone's cup of tea so to speak but it is just incredible how articulate the DXD808 sounds, with each pulsating note taking hold of you and going through you and my sofa :hsd:


----------



## Thedus

recruit said:


> Speaking of serious bass, I have just been listening to Nine Inch Nails album Hesitation Marks in 24bit 96khz and it has some very deep bass, in fact it may be not be everyone's cup of tea so to speak but it is just incredible how articulate the DXD808 sounds, with each pulsating note taking hold of you and going through you and my sofa :hsd:


Groovy! Has anyone here changed the default bass setting in their DXD from the "THX" rolloff to the flat setting inside the plate amp? I understand there are dip switches inside for this function-similar to the toggle switch on the back of the M&K subs (MX-350,, MX-5100, etc)... I have mine set to the "THX" rolloff.


----------



## recruit

Thedus said:


> Groovy! Has anyone here changed the default bass setting in their DXD from the "THX" rolloff to the flat setting inside the plate amp? I understand there are dip switches inside for this function-similar to the toggle switch on the back of the M&K subs (MX-350,, MX-5100, etc)... I have mine set to the "THX" rolloff.


I have mine set as it came when new, so have not changed anything, I do not feel the need to, saying that when I had my MX5100SF I always had it set to the THX setting anyway and felt that it gave the best response when playing around with the settings.


----------



## lesmor

Hi Guys
Things have been quiet for a while so I thought Id post a question or 2

So far I have been unsuccessful in selling my MK Sound MX-350's ( Thought I had but deal fell through, long story ) 

What would your view be of running mixed subs? 

I am sure I read somewhere not to use different models of subs in your setup, but how much of a mistake would that be?

Keeping what I have and perhaps adding 2 KK-2012's would be the ideal solution to not loosing money on my original subwoofers, but obviously not at the risk of degrading the performance of the system as a whole

Thanks in advance
Andy


----------



## asere

lesmor said:


> Hi Guys
> Things have been quiet for a while so I thought Id post a question or 2
> 
> So far I have been unsuccessful in selling my MK Sound MX-350's ( Thought I had but deal fell through, long story )
> 
> What would your view be of running mixed subs?
> 
> I am sure I read somewhere not to use different models of subs in your setup, but how much of a mistake would that be?
> 
> Keeping what I have and perhaps adding 2 KK-2012's would be the ideal solution to not loosing money on my original subwoofers, but obviously not at the risk of degrading the performance of the system as a whole
> 
> Thanks in advance
> Andy


I own one 12012 and a Hsu vtf3 mk4. I tried to use both but end result I was not happy with the combination because the 12012 had more mid bass but was lost combining. Now I'm back to just the 12012. Also KK has a trade in program you could try.


----------



## lesmor

asere said:


> I own one 12012 and a Hsu vtf3 mk4. I tried to use both but end result I was not happy with the combination because the 12012 had more mid bass but was lost combining. Now I'm back to just the 12012. Also KK has a trade in program you could try.


Thanks for the reply which unfortunately confirms my fears that the different models would be detrimental to each other :hissyfit:

Being UK based the KK trade in program does not apply here or it might have been an ideal solution :crying:

Thanks again 
Andy


----------



## asere

lesmor said:


> Thanks for the reply which unfortunately confirms my fears that the different models would be detrimental to each other :hissyfit:
> 
> Being UK based the KK trade in program does not apply here or it might have been an ideal solution :crying:
> 
> Thanks again
> Andy


You could call and ask but shipping will get you.


----------



## lesmor

asere said:


> You could call and ask but shipping will get you.


Thanks for the suggestion

Unfortunately the website is very specific in that

The trade in promotion applies to customers who reside in the USA only


----------



## oakboy37

Lets be honest L-sound are a bit er useless promoting the brand here as well eh?

I wish more manufacturers offered the trade in over here(uk) as well would save a lot of hassle.


----------



## lesmor

oakboy37 said:


> Lets be honest L-sound are a bit er useless promoting the brand here as well eh?
> 
> I wish more manufacturers offered the trade in over here(uk) as well would save a lot of hassle.


Well KK could not have had a better dealer than FH in the UK, also L-sound's pricing seems more expensive than when FH was selling the brand (Might have been a promotional price) I suppose they have to cover the "Free delivery" and exchange rate somehow

Don't get me wrong L-sound is a good company, I've used them before, and you can't beat their 45 day return policy 
As good as these Subs are anyone will tell you should demo any equipment at this price point which is now not possible in the UK

The trade in is a brilliant option, and apparently very generous, which makes a refreshing change, so hats off to Ken for offering that even though it only applies to the USA


----------



## oakboy37

Not denying there a good company, just the presence over here is a bit quiet...


----------



## rsritchey

I will soon be a member of this thread, as I've just purchased a pair of DXD-808s. 

Russ


----------



## theJman

rsritchey said:


> I will soon be a member of this thread, as I've just purchased a pair of DXD-808s.


Congrats on your new toys! After they're tuned and broken in be sure to come back and post your assessment. Others will no doubt benefit from your experience.


----------



## rsritchey

I will Jim. Thanks for the congratulations. Are you still using your review pair? or did you send them back?

Russ


----------



## theJman

rsritchey said:


> I will Jim. Thanks for the congratulations. Are you still using your review pair? or did you send them back?


They went back quite a while ago. A pair certainly changes the experience; a single didn't really do it for me, but two of them was quite impressive. How large is your room?


----------



## rsritchey

The room is around 1950 cu ft. with an opening on the right long side. I don't listen too loud, so hopefully the pair of 808s will do alright. My last sub was a HSU VTF-2, so almost anything will be an improvement. I'm using a borrowed down-firing 12" home brew until the new ones arrive. What are you using now in your room?


----------



## theJman

rsritchey said:


> What are you using now in your room?


Whatever I'm reviewing at the moment.  I essentially go from one review to the next, so it's never the same for too long.


----------



## rsritchey

How would you describe the difference between the single vs the stacked pair in your room?


----------



## theJman

rsritchey said:


> How would you describe the difference between the single vs the stacked pair in your room?


A single wasn't quite sufficient to achieve the level of output I was looking for, but stack them and it changed everything. It's pretty common knowledge that having more than one subwoofer placed in various locations around a room will even out the sound distribution (assuming they're placed in the appropriate locations, of course). For me, however, I wanted to have a "wall of sound" instead, and stacking them helped me achieve that. With the side drivers firing into the wall I had all the output one could hope for from 8" drivers, while also retaining the lightning quick reflexes the 808 is known for.


----------



## rsritchey

I guess I'll find out first hand soon. I understand that they take at least 25 hours to break in, so I'll be patient with my first impressions.


----------



## Nec

Got duo kk12012, any of u add another sub to make rumble and chest feel?


----------



## Audiofan1

Nec said:


> Got duo kk12012, any of u add another sub to make rumble and chest feel?


Are you saying you have a duo? and if so how do you have them placed ? I have a single 12012 corner loaded as Ken recommends and get some good concrete vibrations and chest hits ! but I will add a second soon for the 3dPulsar effect


----------



## Nec

Yes stack with corner loaded,but no chest hits. May I know what is ur setting thx.
My setting is all gain at green position.


----------



## Audiofan1

Nec said:


> Yes stack with corner loaded,but no chest hits. May I know what is ur setting thx.
> My setting is all gain at green position.


I'm using all the green dots except the gain, which I had to lower for Audyssey XT32 on my Marantz 8801, I run my mains full range , center small 80hz and surrounds small 80hz. What pre/processor or receiver do you use and what crossover from the speakers are you using? also whats the room size, is it the best corner for your sub? have you tried moving them or separating them?

Lot of questions but more info will help.


----------



## rsritchey

Haven't had much time to dial them in, and they've only got a few hours on them but my DUO pair of DXD-808s are pretty impressive. If someone can tell me how to post photos here, I'll put up an in room response from REW. So far it looks like I've got response down to about 11Hz. I wonder how that will change as it breaks in.

Russ


----------



## rsritchey

1950 cu foot room with an opening into the rest of the house.


----------



## Owen Bartley

Russ, that's mighty impressive for some 8" drivers. I know there are 4 of them, but I'm still a little surprised to hear that they can dig down that deep. Nice work, Ken!


----------



## Audiofan1

rsritchey said:


> 1950 cu foot room with an opening into the rest of the house.


Wow nice!:T


----------



## rsritchey

Thanks Guys. I seem to have injured my hearing last weekend running sound for a brass band (I measured 112dB at one point). Didn't get my plugs in in time and my left ear is really been ringing. As a result, I haven't listened to much music the last few days. What I have heard has been tight and well defined in the bass. I'll have more time this weekend to run more measurements. Hopefully by then the ringing will be back to the normal baseline. Protect your hearing guys.

Russ


----------



## asere

The cd from Lorde, Pure Heroine gave my 12012 a workout. 
You should try listening to it!


----------



## asere

I just noticed I don't see Kreisel ad anywhere on the forum. 
Is he no longer a sponsor here?


----------



## AnotherBassEnthusiast

Does anyone have any of the removable, rubber feet for sale? I'm in need of 8 from either the 808 or 12012.


----------



## Audiofan1

asere said:


> I just noticed I don't see Kreisel ad anywhere on the forum.
> Is he no longer a sponsor here?


I noticed that as well!


----------



## Sonnie

KRIESEL is no longer a sponsor. They opted not to renew. Ken did not really say why, but I do know that we were producing some pretty good traffic for them, although we have no way of knowing what percentage were actually buying. There is a price point that you reach with products where it takes a lot more lookers to get buyers, and perhaps we were not meeting that threshold.


----------



## asere

It's sad to see him go. Especially from such an awesome forum like this one.


----------



## RuneW

Hi, I have a couple of 270 litre sonosubs that works very well in the lower end (10-25Hz), but they do not integrate well and I have room node issues. I'm considering a quad stack of 808's and my question is this:

Would it be a good idea to keep the tubes to help the 808's out at the very low end? Is there some crossover box that doesn't cost more than a couple of hundred $ that can work well achieving this?


----------



## Audiofan1

RuneW said:


> Hi, I have a couple of 270 litre sonosubs that works very well in the lower end (10-25Hz), but they do not integrate well and I have room node issues. I'm considering a quad stack of 808's and my question is this:
> 
> Would it be a good idea to keep the tubes to help the 808's out at the very low end? Is there some crossover box that doesn't cost more than a couple of hundred $ that can work well achieving this?


The quad stack may get the job done alone but room treatments and something like the addition of an Antimode may do the trick as well.


----------



## Norcane

Hi,

My first post in this forum

I have soon the DUO DXD-808 and I'm wondering what people use with their DXD` when listening in stereo. I play music more then I see movies so I have a integrated amp with HT bypass in conjunction with a Yamaha RXV3020.

When I play music I only use the integrated along with a DSPeaker Dual core. When I want see movie I will have have to flip the bypass LPF too use it with the Yamaha. But its recommended that the green dots are being used with AVR receiver. The system is calibrated in stereo with -6db bass level and 180 phase and LPF set too 50HZ.

The LPF won't mean anything after flipping the lowpass filter off when using an AVR but the bass level and phase will. Anybody know if it will have anything to say for degrading its potencial if I let the phase and bass level stay like they are in stereo and not in the green dots? I ask because it will be a hassle to change back an forth and it will ruin the calibration a bit..

Anybody using the "hybrid" solution like me?

I guess the best thing too do is buy a surround proccesor and skip the integrated. Like the Cary cinema 12 who is known to be very good in stereo.. It will happened but not in 2014

edit:Using XLR RCA adapter and the stack link XLR when using surround and a Y rca cable when using the integrated..


----------



## KathiM

Hi Home Theatre enthusiasts this is my first post here.
Since yesterday I got the 12012 in my living room. I've been playing with it the whole day and night, and I must say as much as I like it with music I'm really missing the rumble in movies. I came from a SVS PC12-NSD and for example on the "mushroom" THX trailer the SVS really hits me on my sofa whereas the 12012 is not tactile at all.

I moved the 12012 around and now it is placed in the corner where it shows the room coupling, but still it is far away from the PC12 in the low frequencies and on tactile bass.

I did a REW measurement and it confirms my feelings: between 35Hz and 18Hz I see around 4-5db more SPL on the SVS compared to the DXD.

I'm somewhat disappointed as I specifically choose the 12012 over a Duo 808 to not lose the earthquakes.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

KathiM


----------



## lesmor

KathiM said:


> Hi Home Theatre enthusiasts this is my first post here.
> Since yesterday I got the 12012 in my living room. I've been playing with it the whole day and night, and I must say as much as I like it with music I'm really missing the rumble in movies. I came from a SVS PC12-NSD and for example on the "mushroom" THX trailer the SVS really hits me on my sofa whereas the 12012 is not tactile at all.
> 
> I moved the 12012 around and now it is placed in the corner where it shows the room coupling, but still it is far away from the PC12 in the low frequencies and on tactile bass.
> 
> I did a REW measurement and it confirms my feelings: between 35Hz and 18Hz I see around 4-5db more SPL on the SVS compared to the DXD.
> 
> I'm somewhat disappointed as I specifically choose the 12012 over a Duo 808 to not lose the earthquakes.
> 
> Any thoughts are appreciated.
> 
> KathiM


I don't have a 12012 myself but a Quattro 808 while I am sure you have done a good job of setting the sub up
In my experience they take a good while to run in, and they improve immensely with time
My initial thoughts were very disappointing and I was going to return them,but no way would I consider that now.
The greatest difference for me was when I moved them to 3" from the side wall and firing into the strongest corner I also had to reorientated them 90 deg and that made a vast measurable increase in SPL
Also all controls are selected to the green dot position

All that said I can fully understand your disappointment if you have lost the tactile effect but the review on this site measured the 12012 down to very low frequencies so it should be more than capable


----------



## KathiM

> My initial thoughts were very disappointing and I was going to return them,but no way would I consider that now.
> The greatest difference for me was when I moved them to 3" from the side wall and firing into the strongest corner I also had to reorientated them 90 deg and that made a vast measurable increase in SPL
> 
> Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=676626#ixzz33Ig47XBZ


...thanks for sharing the frustration.
How many hours did it take you until they came fully loose?
With regards to placement I currently have it about 3inch from the walls. Turning does only give homeopathic effects. In the middle of the room it loses a few db below 20Hz.

KatihM


----------



## lesmor

KathiM said:


> ...thanks for sharing the frustration.
> How many hours did it take you until they came fully loose?
> With regards to placement I currently have it about 3inch from the walls. Turning does only give homeopathic effects. In the middle of the room it loses a few db below 20Hz.
> 
> KatihM


Difficult to give a definitive figure as I also moved positions around , I would allow 40 hrs I assume you got the sub from L-Sound so you have plenty time for the 45 day return policy if things don't improve
Out of interest which corner do you use?


----------



## theJman

40-50 hours break-in time is about right, based upon the 808 DUO I reviewed. They do come around at a rather leisurely pace.


----------



## asere

I own one 12012 in a 5500cf room and the sub really shines even with that much space. 
I placed the sub in different areas in the room and found that the center front wall was best sounding even though Ken suggested corner placement. I will confirm that once I get my minidsp and use REW.
Kriesel is in a different league when it comes to sound. 
Make sure the sub is set to green dots.
Also how are you calibrating?


----------



## KathiM

Ok, I did some more measurements in different locations. My designated spot is on the right hand corner next to the right front speaker. I made a discovery by accident that I cannot understand. The frequency response is worse than my PC12 but when I sit on my DXD12012 I get a smooth frequency response significantly above the SVS. When I sit on the SVS it even gets slightly better than the Kreisel sub.

I put weight onto the DXD without success. I actually put the PC12 on top, but it does not change frequency response at all. Either it has to be 90kg, or my human body does some magic dampening.

In the other corner the difference between seated and non-seated is not that drastic. 

This is a mystery to me.

KathiM


----------



## lesmor

KathiM said:


> Ok, I did some more measurements in different locations. My designated spot is on the right hand corner next to the right front speaker. I made a discovery by accident that I cannot understand. The frequency response is worse than my PC12 but when I sit on my DXD12012 I get a smooth frequency response significantly above the SVS. When I sit on the SVS it even gets slightly better than the Kreisel sub.
> 
> I put weight onto the DXD without success. I actually put the PC12 on top, but it does not change frequency response at all. Either it has to be 90kg, or my human body does some magic dampening.
> 
> In the other corner the difference between seated and non-seated is not that drastic.
> 
> This is a mystery to me.
> 
> KathiM


I take it the FR corner is structurally the strongest?
I had my Stack in the FR corner which should have been the best, but it wasn't the strongest
I moved it to the FL the strongest corner, with the bottom driver firing into the front wall as recommended in the manual, but the power lights were distracting
I then turned it 90 deg so the bottom driver fires across the front wall (Second sub fires into the left sidewall) which is not as per recommendation.
The SPL on all freq measured 20 db higher in this orientation and was audibly superior
Using a XTZ room analyser Pro and the built in seine wave generator @ 16Hz had increased from 50 db to 72 db,@ 80Hz 70db to 90db

I will say that using the XTZ between one set of readings and the next might not have been ideal

Edit: I should point out that 16 HZ is the lowest XTZ measures


----------



## KathiM

Just found out that the seating thing is a false alarm. When I'm seated I got the Laptop on my lap (this is how it's supposed to be :huh but when the Laptop is that close it somehow picks up additional SPL. When I leave the Laptop at a distance there is no change between seated and non-seated.



> I then turned it 90 deg so the bottom driver fires across the front wall (Second sub fires into the left sidewall) which is not as per recommendation.


I'm not quite sure I get it. Is it still on its "feet"?

KathiM


----------



## Norcane

Tries again.)

Anybody who have the DXD connected too both an integrated(stereo jacks) or stereo preamp and a processor/AVR(XLR)? 

I have the subs calibrated with Antimode Dual core in stereo mode.. When using it watching movies I have to flip the connection to by pass mode. I know its recommended that you have to use the green dots when calibrating it with a surround receiver buts thats a lot of hassle. So I have calibrated the surround receiver with the same settings as in stereo. Anybody who use it like this or can recommend otherwise? The subs are brand new and I have just started to use them!

Any help is appreciated!!


----------



## Audiofan1

Norcane said:


> Tries again.)
> 
> Anybody who have the DXD connected too both an integrated(stereo jacks) or stereo preamp and a processor/AVR(XLR)?
> 
> I have the subs calibrated with Antimode Dual core in stereo mode.. When using it watching movies I have to flip the connection to by pass mode. I know its recommended that you have to use the green dots when calibrating it with a surround receiver buts thats a lot of hassle. So I have calibrated the surround receiver with the same settings as in stereo. Anybody who use it like this or can recommend otherwise? The subs are brand new and I have just started to use them!
> 
> Any help is appreciated!!


I use a Marantz 8801 with Audyssey XT32 on my single 12012 and I had to adjust the gain from the green dot to around the 10 o clock position to obtain a setting above -11db it came out around -6.5, I did try both but found this did yield better sound (subjectively of course) All my other dots are as Ken recommends and I'm using the rca connection.


----------



## Audiofan1

KathiM said:


> ...thanks for sharing the frustration.
> How many hours did it take you until they came fully loose?
> With regards to placement I currently have it about 3inch from the walls. Turning does only give homeopathic effects. In the middle of the room it loses a few db below 20Hz.
> 
> KatihM


Are you using any form of digital room correction or have any bass traps near the DXD? Also what crossovers ,room size other components etc.. and did you try moving the side driver closer to the wall say start around 2" and work your way out, this applies to the rear as well , I ended up about 6" from the rear and 2.4" from the sidewall which gave me the smoothest response by ear and best tactile sensation at the mlp. And don't be afraid to bump the sub level a few db as it can take it and as others have mentioned it can take sub time to loosen the drivers which have an increase in spl and low end extension :T


----------



## fbczar

When I purchased my first DXD12012 the folks at Kreisel sent the following email about subwoofer breaking : To break in the DXD-12012 send the test tone, found in most receivers, to the DXD-12012 so that the unit is putting out around 90db SPL and let it run for about 20 minutes or so. If this is not possible we recommend just using the subwoofer for playback of content at normal listening levels and in about a week or so with a moderate amount of use you will start noticing that the bass sounds warmer and deeper.


----------



## asere

fbczar said:


> When I purchased my first DXD12012 the folks at Kreisel sent the following email about subwoofer breaking : To break in the DXD-12012 send the test tone, found in most receivers, to the DXD-12012 so that the unit is putting out around 90db SPL and let it run for about 20 minutes or so. If this is not possible we recommend just using the subwoofer for playback of content at normal listening levels and in about a week or so with a moderate amount of use you will start noticing that the bass sounds warmer and deeper.


Do you know when yours starts to roll off? My 12012 starts to roll off at 30hz and around 20hz it's at 70db or so.


----------



## fbczar

asere said:


> Do you know when yours starts to roll off? My 12012 starts to roll off at 30hz and around 20hz it's at 70db or so.


I have a Duo now, but the DXD12012's play really low. The room and room placement has a major impact on the performance of any sub. My Duo is pretty flat to 15Hz according to my REW measurements, but I have just started with REW so I do not know how accurate my measurements are. A big factor, if you place the sub in a corner is how solid and reflective the corner is. My room was designed for soundproofing. I used Sheetrock on resilient aluminum channels. Works great for soundproofing, but it is too absorbent. I put some large granite slabs in the corner and the results were amazing. Apparently the walls were having a really negative effect on the subs. I also had major problems with Audyssey XT when I first got the sub so I turned it off and the improvement was significant. I hope to get an Anthem MRX 510 and use it as a preamp with my B&K 7250 amp so I can take advantage of ARC. The DXD12012's are awesome with music in a 2.1 system too. Where do you have you sub placed in your room?


----------



## asere

fbczar said:


> I have a Duo now, but the DXD12012's play really low. The room and room placement has a major impact on the performance of any sub. My Duo is pretty flat to 15Hz according to my REW measurements, but I have just started with REW so I do not know how accurate my measurements are. A big factor, if you place the sub in a corner is how solid and reflective the corner is. My room was designed for soundproofing. I used Sheetrock on resilient aluminum channels. Works great for soundproofing, but it is too absorbent. I put some large granite slabs in the corner and the results were amazing. Apparently the walls were having a really negative effect on the subs. I also had major problems with Audyssey XT when I first got the sub so I turned it off and the improvement was significant. I hope to get an Anthem MRX 510 and use it as a preamp with my B&K 7250 amp so I can take advantage of ARC. The DXD12012's are awesome with music in a 2.1 system too. Where do you have you sub placed in your room?


Mine was in middle front wall and now corner. With corner the response is off and at both locations it rolls off around 30.


----------



## fbczar

asere said:


> Mine was in middle front wall and now corner. With corner the response is off and at both locations it rolls off around 30.


Is the speaker on the side firing toward a wall?


----------



## asere

fbczar said:


> Is the speaker on the side firing toward a wall?


Yes it is


----------



## fbczar

asere said:


> Yes it is


Are you running the subs with all the controls set to the green dots? Are you running Audyssey? Can you tell me how your sub level is set relative to the rest of your speakers? Early on in the process, Audyssey absolutely killed the bass response in my room. Even with a 5db boost it was not very good. When I turned Audyssey off I started making progress. A simple set up manually with a Radio Shack meter made a big improvement.


----------



## asere

fbczar said:


> Are you running the subs with all the controls set to the green dots? Are you running Audyssey? Can you tell me how your sub level is set relative to the rest of your speakers? Early on in the process, Audyssey absolutely killed the bass response in my room. Even with a 5db boost it was not very good. When I turned Audyssey off I started making progress. A simple set up manually with a Radio Shack meter made a big improvement.


I have only one sub and the dots are on green. I did the REW calibration with Umik mic without Audyssey and with.
I have not tested the speakers yet because I have no hdmi and did the test with rca cables.
Below are the graphs. The yellow one was front middle wall the others corner placement.


----------



## asere

Here is another one.


----------



## fbczar

asere said:


> Here is another one.


I do not know anything about your room. Can you tell me about it? Are you using bass traps? If not I think that could help. If you can smooth out those peaks I think you could be in business. If the peaks were under control equalization might help the dips you have. As it is I doubt Audyssey or even ARC could function well. When you did the manual setup did you use an SPL meter? If so, what level did you set for your sub and your other speakers?


----------



## asere

fbczar said:


> I do not know anything about your room. Can you tell me about it? Are you using bass traps? If not I think that could help. If you can smooth out those peaks I think you could be in business. If the peaks were under control equalization might help the dips you have. As it is I doubt Audyssey or even ARC could function well. When you did the manual setup did you use an SPL meter? If so, what level did you set for your sub and your other speakers?


My room is in the family room opened to the kitchen. Combined it is around 5400cf.
I have no bass traps and did REW with Audyssey engaged and disengaged. With Audyssey the graphs were better.
How does the graph that has down to 5hz look? Is the roll off still 30hz?
I used REW pink noise and rms level set to -12. Is this correct?


----------



## fbczar

asere said:


> My room is in the family room opened to the kitchen. Combined it is around 5400cf. I have no bass traps and did REW with Audyssey engaged and disengaged. With Audyssey the graphs were better. How does the graph that has down to 5hz look? Is the roll off still 30hz?


I am not an REW expert. Maybe adding some smoothing would paint a clearer picture for you. What I see in the last graph is a dip from about 22Hz to 15Hz, not a roll off, because it begins to rise again below 15Hz. I think you have the potential for useful output well below 30Hz. Try turning Audyssey off and setting up the system with an SPL meter. Try 80db for the sub and 75db for all the other speakers as a starting point. If you can, try moving the main seatIng position somewhere between 33% and 38% of the length of the room from the back wall. I have a dedicated room so I can do what I want, but bass traps work wonders. The folks at GIK and RealTraps will actually do a design for you. You can work your way toward an ideal setup in phases if you need to. All this can be a lot of fun. I was astounded by the improvement I realized when I put a big slab of granite between by Duo and the wall. You just have to work at it. Believe me, the DXD12012 is an awesome device. Two are even better. All the reasons would take a while to discuss.


----------



## asere

fbczar said:


> I am not an REW expert. Maybe adding some smoothing would paint a clearer picture for you. What I see in the last graph is a dip from about 22Hz to 15Hz, not a roll off, because it begins to rise again below 15Hz. I think you have the potential for useful output well below 30Hz. Try turning Audyssey off and setting up the system with an SPL meter. Try 80db for the sub and 75db for all the other speakers as a starting point. If you can, try moving the main seatIng position somewhere between 33% and 38% of the length of the room from the back wall. I have a dedicated room so I can do what I want, but bass traps work wonders. The folks at GIK and RealTraps will actually do a design for you. You can work your way toward an ideal setup in phases if you need to. All this can be a lot of fun. I was astounded by the improvement I realized when I put a big slab of granite between by Duo and the wall. You just have to work at it. Believe me, the DXD12012 is an awesome device. Two are even better. All the reasons would take a while to discuss.


Yeah they are great subs. I emailed Ken about the graph and he said REW is meaningless to him because it's not accurate and he said to much to explain.


----------



## KathiM

I received the UMIK microphone and now did some measurements. It took me some time until I figured out that with my Mac and Mavericks OS I will not go anywhere... I now hooked up a MS laptop and it seems to work. What just is strange to me that, it makes no difference in the measurements either for the SVS nor for the DXD if they are placed tight in a corner or if they are 5 inches away from each side.

What is really stunning, that above 15Hz there is not much difference in frequency response between my SVS PC12-NSD and the DXD12012. Although it sounds different the measurements tell differently.

Grey line: DXD
Green line SVS
...all in the same position.

KathiM


----------



## asere

KathiM said:


> I received the UMIK microphone and now did some measurements. It took me some time until I figured out that with my Mac and Mavericks OS I will not go anywhere... I now hooked up a MS laptop and it seems to work. What just is strange to me that, it makes no difference in the measurements either for the SVS nor for the DXD if they are placed tight in a corner or if they are 5 inches away from each side.
> 
> What is really stunning, that above 15Hz there is not much difference in frequency response between my SVS PC12-NSD and the DXD12012. Although it sounds different the measurements tell differently.
> 
> Grey line: DXD
> Green line SVS
> ...all in the same position.
> 
> KathiM


How big is the room were you took the measurements?


----------



## KathiM

The room is 6.5 x 3.3 x 2.4 (height) = 67 cubic meters. Measurement is taken at my listening position app. 3.5m away from the sub which is placed next to the front speaker (corner).

KathiM


----------



## asere

KathiM said:


> The room is 6.5 x 3.3 x 2.4 (height) = 67 cubic meters. Measurement is taken at my listening position app. 3.5m away from the sub which is placed next to the front speaker (corner).
> 
> KathiM


Your fortunate you have a small room were one or two subs give you a flat response down to 15hz. 
I have one 12012 and just might need a second one.


----------



## Bear123

asere said:


> Yeah they are great subs.* I emailed Ken about the graph and he said REW is meaningless to him because it's not accurate* and he said to much to explain.


Really? Wow......


----------



## Bear123

KathiM said:


> I received the UMIK microphone and now did some measurements. It took me some time until I figured out that with my Mac and Mavericks OS I will not go anywhere... I now hooked up a MS laptop and it seems to work. What just is strange to me that, it makes no difference in the measurements either for the SVS nor for the DXD if they are placed tight in a corner or if they are 5 inches away from each side.
> 
> What is really stunning, that above 15Hz there is not much difference in frequency response between my SVS PC12-NSD and the DXD12012. Although it sounds different the measurements tell differently.
> 
> Grey line: DXD
> Green line SVS
> ...all in the same position.
> 
> KathiM


Thats because the frequency response cannot be magically changed by a different sub....it is dictated by the room, placement, and the MLP. That is also why dual subs are so beneficial. You can usually get a much more even response if placed properly and spread out as much as possible(not stacked)


----------



## Audiofan1

Bear123 said:


> Really? Wow......


Perhaps Ken has access to better than REW as he said its "meaningless to him" and not to users which many find it a very useful tool.


----------



## fbczar

KathiM said:


> I received the UMIK microphone and now did some measurements. It took me some time until I figured out that with my Mac and Mavericks OS I will not go anywhere... I now hooked up a MS laptop and it seems to work. What just is strange to me that, it makes no difference in the measurements either for the SVS nor for the DXD if they are placed tight in a corner or if they are 5 inches away from each side. What is really stunning, that above 15Hz there is not much difference in frequency response between my SVS PC12-NSD and the DXD12012. Although it sounds different the measurements tell differently. Grey line: DXD Green line SVS ...all in the same position. KathiM


Frequency response does not tell you everything about how a sub sounds. Transient response, or how "fast" the sub is is a major factor. The DXD12012 is incredibly fast. I think that is why the are so outstanding with music. They are apparently capable of handling higher frequencies better than most subs. Of course, the differences between sealed subs vs ported subs is another consideration. Every room is different and in some cases placing subs in different locations might work better, but there can be no doubt that Ken Kreisel thinks that is the exception rather than the rule. Remember a room has both height and width. When you stack a pair of DXD12012's the top sub interacts with the vertical modes of the room differently than the lower one. Corner placement improves output significantly. Another factor, and perhaps the most overlooked is distance from the sub to the listening position. The closer it is the greater the perceived output will be. I also found that moving the sub closer to or away from a corner can affect the ability to localize the sub just as higher or lower crossover points can. Have you looked at any waterfall graphs? they can tell you a lot about the interaction of your sub and your room.


----------



## asere

Audiofan1 said:


> Perhaps Ken has access to better than REW as he said its "meaningless to him" and not to users which many find it a very useful tool.


Could be. I even asked him again to tell me if he thought my graph was good or bad even though I understood how he felt about REW just to give me an idea and he just said he thought my graphs were not good nor bad. So no answer lol!
He believes corner placement is always better and I am not disagreeing after all he designed them that way. The question is what placement is better and can we truly rely on REW at least with his design.


----------



## Audiofan1

asere said:


> Could be. I even asked him again to tell me if he thought my graph was good or bad even though I understood how he felt about REW just to give me an idea and he just said he thought my graphs were not good nor bad. So no answer lol!
> He believes corner placement is always better and I am not disagreeing after all he designed them that way. The question is what placement is better and can we truly rely on REW at least with his design.


I'll have to let you know once I get my mic, I have the software already downloaded but i do have my sub in the optimal ( atleast to my ears) corner in the room and as noted above in the other posters comments moving it back or forth and closer or farther from the side wall has impact on localization, my 12012 is 13ft away from the mlp and I get a good room pressurization from a single and nice strong tactile sensations on the concrete floor and chair. I can't wait for measurements as I plan to do this before and after adding a second to see just what REW can tell me about my already treated room and what XT32 is doing be it good or bad, I will say Audyssey on or off 2/ch or multi/ch I love this sub!


----------



## asere

Audiofan1 said:


> I'll have to let you know once I get my mic, I have the software already downloaded but i do have my sub in the optimal ( atleast to my ears) corner in the room and as noted above in the other posters comments moving it back or forth and closer or farther from the side wall has impact on localization, my 12012 is 13ft away from the mlp and I get a good room pressurization from a single and nice strong tactile sensations on the concrete floor and chair. I can't wait for measurements as I plan to do this before and after adding a second to see just what REW can tell me about my already treated room and what XT32 is doing be it good or bad, I will say Audyssey on or off 2/ch or multi/ch I love this sub!


Oh yeah regardless of measurements as you mentioned. Audyssey on or off this or that it's amazing sound.


----------



## KathiM

I would like to see some REW measurements in the corner with different gaps to the wall. On both corners that I measured there were virtually no difference between 2 inch and 5 inch. It sounds like everybody's room is sensitive to corner gaps where mine is not at all.:dontknow:

KathiM


----------



## Audiofan1

KathiM said:


> I would like to see some REW measurements in the corner with different gaps to the wall. On both corners that I measured there were virtually no difference between 2 inch and 5 inch. It sounds like everybody's room is sensitive to corner gaps where mine is not at all.:dontknow:
> 
> KathiM


I think it more of whats heard as to hats measured, perhaps less or more localization and or better blending with the mains I notice more of difference with 2/ch with sub than multich i ended up after a day of setup around 6" from the rear and 2.4" from the side wall as it had the best blend to my ears. I'll give measurements ago when I get the mic to see if this can be detected or not but the ears will always have the final say.


----------



## Bear123

Audiofan1 said:


> Perhaps Ken has access to better than REW as he said its "meaningless to him" and not to users which many find it a very useful tool.


Nope...the quote said meaningless "because it is not accurate". The poster earlier was shocked that the FR between the KK sub and SVS were identical above 16 Hz(port tune of the SVS)....but that is no surprise, the KK is not magic its just a sub that works like any other. As far as moving a sub a few inches in a corner, it is not surprising that it does not change the FR. Sometimes slight movement can change things but if within a few feet of a corner the sub will act as though it is corner loaded.

Some people think this sub has some sort of magical design that benefits in some unique way from corner loading.....all subs get the same benefit from corner loading. And sometimes the corner is the best place for a sub, and sometimes it is not. It does not matter what the name is on the sub or what kind of marketing a company uses.

@ Asere....yes you can rely on REW even with "his design"..again, nothing magical going on here.


----------



## Bear123

KathiM said:


> I received the UMIK microphone and now did some measurements. It took me some time until I figured out that with my Mac and Mavericks OS I will not go anywhere... I now hooked up a MS laptop and it seems to work. What just is strange to me that, it makes no difference in the measurements either for the SVS nor for the DXD if they are placed tight in a corner or if they are 5 inches away from each side.
> 
> What is really stunning, that above 15Hz there is not much difference in frequency response between my SVS PC12-NSD and the DXD12012. Although it sounds different the measurements tell differently.
> 
> Grey line: DXD
> Green line SVS
> ...all in the same position.
> 
> KathiM


Based on your graph it looks like you would benefit a lot from a miniDSP. You can use this along with REW to flatten out the peaks in your response for more even bass. You won't be able to boost the large null though. You can try different placement/phase/crossover/distance adjustments for that. If all else fails, a second sub spread out somewhere else in the room, perhaps opposite corner, should be able to fill the null.


----------



## asere

I am wondering if anyone with the 808/12012 has seen Edge of Tomorrow. The opening note is a killer one :hsd:


----------



## lesmor

The intro sure tests your sub woofers, I believe there has been warnings of possible damage


----------



## asere

lesmor said:


> The intro sure tests your sub woofers, I believe there has been warnings of possible damage


Yep mine popped at -10. No damage though


----------



## KapteinUfattelig

Hi, I am new to this forum and have just recently purchased four DXD808 for my stereo setup. This is the first time I am trying to integrate subwoofers with my main speakers (Aerial Acoustic 7T), and in my first attempts I seem to fail miserably. Hopefully someone can give me a clue.

I am using REW to measure and plot the frequency response and waterfall, and the idea is to use DSpeaker Anti-Mode DualCore 2.0 for room correction after I have placed my subs optimally.

I tried first with two DXD808. The problem I have is that they cancel each other out if set to same phase, but if I invert the phase on one of them (set to 180 degrees), the response is much stronger. This did not change even if I moved them around in the room. I have only RCA out on my amplifier (Devialet 200) and am using a RCA-XLR adapter on the output and balanced cable to the sub and also in the link between them.

Am I really supposed to invert one of them? The user manual clearly states that in both Duo and Quattro configuration, all should be set to the same phase.
When I tried Quattro, I saw the same effect, but slightly more complex...


----------



## lesmor

KapteinUfattelig said:


> Hi, I am new to this forum and have just recently purchased four DXD808 for my stereo setup. This is the first time I am trying to integrate subwoofers with my main speakers (Aerial Acoustic 7T), and in my first attempts I seem to fail miserably. Hopefully someone can give me a clue.
> 
> I am using REW to measure and plot the frequency response and waterfall, and the idea is to use DSpeaker Anti-Mode DualCore 2.0 for room correction after I have placed my subs optimally.
> 
> I tried first with two DXD808. The problem I have is that they cancel each other out if set to same phase, but if I invert the phase on one of them (set to 180 degrees), the response is much stronger. This did not change even if I moved them around in the room. I have only RCA out on my amplifier (Devialet 200) and am using a RCA-XLR adapter on the output and balanced cable to the sub and also in the link between them.
> 
> Am I really supposed to invert one of them? The user manual clearly states that in both Duo and Quattro configuration, all should be set to the same phase.
> When I tried Quattro, I saw the same effect, but slightly more complex...


Out of interest do you get the same result if the 2 subs are side by side and not stacked
This will determine if both subs are the same and it is not the effect of one being (physically) inverted and at a different height to the bottom one which might energise different modes.
As you start stacking more subs up to the 6 foot height of a Quattro there might be some reinforce/ cancellation reaction.


----------



## KapteinUfattelig

No, I haven't tried that. Will do it when I get back home.


----------



## fbczar

KapteinUfattelig said:


> Hi, I am new to this forum and have just recently purchased four DXD808 for my stereo setup. This is the first time I am trying to integrate subwoofers with my main speakers (Aerial Acoustic 7T), and in my first attempts I seem to fail miserably. Hopefully someone can give me a clue.
> 
> I am using REW to measure and plot the frequency response and waterfall, and the idea is to use DSpeaker Anti-Mode DualCore 2.0 for room correction after I have placed my subs optimally.
> 
> I tried first with two DXD808. The problem I have is that they cancel each other out if set to same phase, but if I invert the phase on one of them (set to 180 degrees), the response is much stronger. This did not change even if I moved them around in the room. I have only RCA out on my amplifier (Devialet 200) and am using a RCA-XLR adapter on the output and balanced cable to the sub and also in the link between them.
> 
> Am I really supposed to invert one of them? The user manual clearly states that in both Duo and Quattro configuration, all should be set to the same phase.
> When I tried Quattro, I saw the same effect, but slightly more complex...



KapteinUfattelig, I would first recommend that you contact Ken Kreisel directly. Ken is ultimately knowledgeable about the your DXD808's and I know from experience he is very responsive. I own a pair of DXD12012's in duo configuration. I use them for both home theater and stereo. They are in a Duo configuration so one is inverted and stacked on the other, which is the way they are designed to be used. I have them connected from one analog output on my preamp to a Y adapter to two RCA cables. The default, "green dot" settings, with phase setting on "0" are what Ken recommends and what I use. The idea is to have identical output from each sub, but to utilize the inverted configuration to eliminate distortion. My subs are in a back corner and they are impossible to localize. I use them with Dirac, through an Emotiva XMC-1 processor and the integration with my TDL Reference Standard speakers is excellent.

There are always exceptions, but in my two years of experimentation the stacked configuration with a corner placement yields the best results. I would start with the quatro configuration with settings as described in the Kreisel literature. Not only will it have a 12db output advantage over a single sub and a 6db output advantage over the duo configuration, but the physical height of the quatro will come into play relative to how the subs interact with your room. Can you describe your room and the placement/configuration you are using now? Do you have the subs connected together with the brackets supplied by Kreisel?

You have a great subwoofer system. I have no doubt you can make it work.


----------



## KapteinUfattelig

Thanks for the reply. I have sent Ken Kreisel support an email with some measurements. 

I have bought these subs in two batches and two are labelled DXD808 and two are MX700. I understand that they are the similar product, but sold for the home user vs pro. Or something like that.

Anyway, through REW measurements I found that the DXD808 gave most output at 0 phase in a DUO configuration, and that cancellation occurred when one of them was phase inverted 180 deg. Fair enough. But when I measured the MX700 in DUO the opposite happened! The cancelling occurred when both were at 0 phase and most output was when one of them was phase inverted 180. Strange! Have any of you experienced this?

Hopefully Ken Kreisel support will come up with an explanation and solution for how to proceed towards sound nirvana.


----------



## theJman

KapteinUfattelig said:


> I tried first with two DXD808. The problem I have is that they cancel each other out if set to same phase, but if I invert the phase on one of them (set to 180 degrees), the response is much stronger. This did not change even if I moved them around in the room. I have only RCA out on my amplifier (Devialet 200) and am using a RCA-XLR adapter on the output and balanced cable to the sub and also in the link between them.
> 
> Am I really supposed to invert one of them? The user manual clearly states that in both Duo and Quattro configuration, all should be set to the same phase. When I tried Quattro, I saw the same effect, but slightly more complex...


If you have to invert the phase 180 degrees that indicates you have the subs facing each other. Is that the case? If so, that's _not_ the typical a DUO or QUAD setup. In order to configure them the way Ken wants you have to stack them on top of each other and have the orientation the same, not inverse.




KapteinUfattelig said:


> I have bought these subs in two batches and two are labelled DXD808 and two are MX700. I understand that they are the similar product, but sold for the home user vs pro. Or something like that.


The Kriesel DXD808 and the M&K MX700 aren't the same subwoofer, so that might be part of the problem. They're different companies; Ken has not been associated to M&K for several years. You may find he can't offer much guidance with the MX700.


----------



## fbczar

KapteinUfattelig said:


> Thanks for the reply. I have sent Ken Kreisel support an email with some measurements.
> 
> I have bought these subs in two batches and two are labelled DXD808 and two are MX700. I understand that they are the similar product, but sold for the home user vs pro. Or something like that.
> 
> Anyway, through REW measurements I found that the DXD808 gave most output at 0 phase in a DUO configuration, and that cancellation occurred when one of them was phase inverted 180 deg. Fair enough. But when I measured the MX700 in DUO the opposite happened! The cancelling occurred when both were at 0 phase and most output was when one of them was phase inverted 180. Strange! Have any of you experienced this?
> 
> Hopefully Ken Kreisel support will come up with an explanation and solution for how to proceed towards sound nirvana.


I think you need to wait on Ken. Have you tried the 808's, stacked according to Kreisel instructions, without the 700's? When stacked correctly the top one is inverted so the side woofers will face in opposite directions and the bottom woofer will fire down while the top one fires up. The 808's in duo configuration are pretty formidable.


----------



## KapteinUfattelig

theJman said:


> If you have to invert the phase 180 degrees that indicates you have the subs facing each other. Is that the case? If so, that's _not_ the typical a DUO or QUAD setup. In order to configure them the way Ken wants you have to stack them on top of each other and have the orientation the same, not inverse.


I'm sorry I wasn't specific about that, but all configurations I have tried have been stacking the subs on top of each other, alternating upside down with side woofers facing opposite directions. And all settings on green dot where needed. 



theJman said:


> KapteinUfattelig said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have bought these subs in two batches and two are labelled DXD808 and two are MX700. I understand that they are the similar product, but sold for the home user vs pro. Or something like that.
> 
> 
> 
> The Kriesel DXD808 and the M&K MX700 aren't the same subwoofer, so that might be part of the problem. They're different companies; Ken has not been associated to M&K for several years. You may find he can't offer much guidance with the MX700.
Click to expand...

The MX700s are Mk3, have Ken Kreisel badges on it, came in double boxes, where the inner was saying MX700 and outer saying DXD808, the subs are visually identical to DXD808 and even have Ken Kreisel's signature (possibly printed, didn't check). So these seem to be the real deal, I think? Or?


----------



## fbczar

KapteinUfattelig said:


> I'm sorry I wasn't specific about that, but all configurations I have tried have been stacking the subs on top of each other, alternating upside down with side woofers facing opposite directions. And all settings on green dot where needed.
> 
> 
> 
> The MX700s are Mk3, have Ken Kreisel badges on it, came in double boxes, where the inner was saying MX700 and outer saying DXD808, the subs are visually identical to DXD808 and even have Ken Kreisel's signature (possibly printed, didn't check). So these seem to be the real deal, I think? Or?


It is easy to get to Ken directly with a question. He is amazingly conscientious and helpful. His knowledge of subwoofers is without peer. For months I read everything I could about subs and tried it only to find Ken was always right. When considering placement start in the nearest good corner to your listening position, distance is a big deal where perceived output levels are concerned, with the subs in a stacked, "Duo" or "Quatro" configuration. In the Duo configuration try to place the sub so the top sub fires toward the wall and the bottom sub fires into the room. For manual set up try setting the levels of all speakers to 75db and the subs to 80db or 83db and then adjust to preference. If you are using an EQ system like Dirac stacking all subs in Quatro configuration and treating them as one mono sub will be most effective. Also remember the Kreisels's play higher frequencies very well so do not be afraid to experiment with higher crossover points like 100hz and 120hz.


----------



## asere

Has anyone ever tried the bass level at 0 vs the min(green dot) recommended setting?


----------



## lesmor

asere said:


> Has anyone ever tried the bass level at 0 vs the min(green dot) recommended setting?


I haven't tried 0 I always have mine at green dot

That said it is always a problem when it comes to calibration as Audyssey requires 75db and the green dot setting gives too much output resulting in my AVR sub trims maxed out at -12.0 

I have 2x DXD 808 Quattro stacks and trying to equally balance 8 subs prior to running Audyssey is neigh on impossible.

I did do it once but went back to the green dot setting as recommended by Ken Kreisel


----------



## asere

lesmor said:


> I haven't tried 0 I always have mine at green dot
> 
> That said it is always a problem when it comes to calibration as Audyssey requires 75db and the green dot setting gives too much output resulting in my AVR sub trims maxed out at -12.0
> 
> I have 2x DXD Quattro stacks and trying to equally balance 8 subs prior to running Audyssey is neigh on impossible.
> 
> I did do it once but went back to the green dot setting as recommended by Ken Kreisel


Wow I'm sure you have bass nirvana 
Was the 0 level too much bass that one time you tried it?


----------



## fbczar

lesmor said:


> I haven't tried 0 I always have mine at green dot
> 
> That said it is always a problem when it comes to calibration as Audyssey requires 75db and the green dot setting gives too much output resulting in my AVR sub trims maxed out at -12.0
> 
> I have 2x DXD Quattro stacks and trying to equally balance 8 subs prior to running Audyssey is neigh on impossible.
> 
> I did do it once but went back to the green dot setting as recommended by Ken Kreisel


Which version of Audyssey are you using? Do you have the subs in corners? If you are using DXD12012's in the quarto configuration you are basically trying to balance two subs since each stack of four functions as one big subwoofer. The big advantage to the quarto configuration is the height of the stack and the 12db gain experienced by each stack. I was never able to able to balance my two DXD12012's in Duo configuration with Audyssey XT. Localization was a problem. Dirac works exceptionally well with my Emotiva XMC-1 processor. 

Why don't you set the subs so that Audyssey can perform the calibration and then return the level control back to the green dot when the calibration is done?


----------



## asere

fbczar said:


> Which version of Audyssey are you using? Do you have the subs in corners? If you are using DXD12012's in the quarto configuration you are basically trying to balance two subs since each stack of four functions as one big subwoofer. The big advantage to the quarto configuration is the height of the stack and the 12db gain experienced by each stack. I was never able to able to balance my two DXD12012's in Duo configuration with Audyssey XT. Localization was a problem. Dirac works exceptionally well with my Emotiva XMC-1 processor.
> 
> Why don't you set the subs so that Audyssey can perform the calibration and then return the level control back to the green dot when the calibration is done?


I only have one sub with xt version. With the green dot I got a +2.5 which is fine. I was asking about the 0 setting just because I was curious if it sounded different.


----------



## Audiofan1

fbczar said:


> Which version of Audyssey are you using? Do you have the subs in corners? If you are using DXD12012's in the quarto configuration you are basically trying to balance two subs since each stack of four functions as one big subwoofer. The big advantage to the quarto configuration is the height of the stack and the 12db gain experienced by each stack. I was never able to able to balance my two DXD12012's in Duo configuration with Audyssey XT. Localization was a problem. Dirac works exceptionally well with my Emotiva XMC-1 processor.
> 
> *Why don't you set the subs so that Audyssey can perform the calibration and then return the level control back to the green dot when the calibration is done?*


 I've used this method and also tired leveling them individually and it usually produces less localization from Audyssey and what I found the reason to be is mostly the distance setting as depending on the gain setting it will see the top sub as closer I.E *16.2 *(green dot 82-83db from the mlp) vs *16.4* (when level matched with in 1db from the mlp at 75-76db) for the later being the one that integrates better with the center and mains.


----------



## lesmor

fbczar said:


> Which version of Audyssey are you using? Do you have the subs in corners? If you are using DXD12012's in the quarto configuration you are basically trying to balance two subs since each stack of four functions as one big subwoofer. The big advantage to the quarto configuration is the height of the stack and the 12db gain experienced by each stack. I was never able to able to balance my two DXD12012's in Duo configuration with Audyssey XT. Localization was a problem. Dirac works exceptionally well with my Emotiva XMC-1 processor.
> 
> Why don't you set the subs so that Audyssey can perform the calibration and then return the level control back to the green dot when the calibration is done?


Ooooops thought I put the model which is DXD 808 (Now corrected) both stacks are in corners.
I use MultEQ XT32 also Pro

I appreciate they are 2 subs but my point was to balance the gain to satisfy Audyssey you have to try and balance 8 subs
IIRC I had to reduce each one to almost minimum run Audyssey and then as you suggest put them all back to green dots.

There appears to be no easy solution

You still end up having to reduce the AVR trims to -12 due to overpowering bass but you probably have a better calibration.


----------



## asere

I now have two DXD 12012 subs. Last night I stacked and turned them on with all settings set to green dot. Listening to movie I could NOT hear a difference as it sounded like having only 1 sub.
I measured with REW and the botton sub lost spl around 30hz and the top sub at around 20hz or 18 hz. I then ran REW again this time with both subs combined it read like just having the top sub alone.
Normally can this happen were one sub is different on the graph than the other?


----------



## lesmor

asere said:


> I now have two DXD 12012 subs. Last night I stacked and turned them on with all settings set to green dot. Listening to movie I could NOT hear a difference as it sounded like having only 1 sub.
> I measured with REW and the botton sub lost spl around 30hz and the top sub at around 20hz or 18 hz. I then ran REW again this time with both subs combined it read like just having the top sub alone.
> Normally can this happen were one sub is different on the graph than the other?


Have you checked for blown internal fuses?


----------



## asere

lesmor said:


> Have you checked for blown internal fuses?


No I didn't think to check for that since both subs work.


----------



## fbczar

asere said:


> No I didn't think to check for that since both subs work.


Why don't you email Ken Kresisel at [email protected].
There is a test to check the amplifiers. I am sure Ken will help you out.

By the way, I have a pair of DXD-12012's and they are impressive to say the least.


----------



## asere

fbczar said:


> Why don't you email Ken Kresisel at [email protected].
> There is a test to check the amplifiers. I am sure Ken will help you out.
> 
> By the way, I have a pair of DXD-12012's and they are impressive to say the least.


I'm going to listen to more material first. Ken doesn't care about REW measurements and he will tell you. He used only special time domain measuring equipment. Mentioning to him what REW measured is meaningless to him.


----------



## fbczar

asere said:


> I'm going to listen to more material first. Ken doesn't care about REW measurements and he will tell you. He used only special time domain measuring equipment. Mentioning to him what REW measured is meaningless to him.


That is true, but he can tell you how to test the amplifiers. As an aside, it is pretty simple to see if both subs are working. Just check the SPL with a Radio Shack meter of one sub, then turn on the second one and run the SPL test again. If you have them stacked you should have a 6db SPL increase.


----------



## asere

fbczar said:


> That is true, but he can tell you how to test the amplifiers. As an aside, it is pretty simple to see if both subs are working. Just check the SPL with a Radio Shack meter of one sub, then turn on the second one and run the SPL test again. If you have them stacked you should have a 6db SPL increase.


I did that already each sub measured 80db with a combined total of 85-6db.


----------



## fbczar

asere said:


> I did that already each sub measured 80db with a combined total of 85-6db.


Well, if that is the case both subs are working. Tell me more about your installation, room size, etc. Are you using Dirac or Audyssey?


----------



## lesmor

asere said:


> No I didn't think to check for that since both subs work.


Yes the external fuse will be Ok but there are 2 internal fuses one for each amp
There are a few ways to check 
If you can graph the subs play one and save the result play the second and overlay they should both be identical.
Or play a 50Hz tone (or some music) then switch the sub off whicle listening to the cabinet you should hear one amp power down closely followed by the second amp.
Repeat on the second sub
Or if you have an energy monitoring adapter plug it into the electrical socked and then the sub into the adapter check how many amps are showing i.e 20amp idle
Then check the second sub which should read the same.
I was shocked to find that on one of my Quattro stacks 3 subs had a blown internal fuse.
Caveat Fuse problems are more common in the UK


----------



## asere

fbczar said:


> Well, if that is the case both subs are working. Tell me more about your installation, room size, etc. Are you using Dirac or Audyssey?


My room measures roughly 5200cf. I haven't ran Audyssey yet for the dual set up and wasn't planning on doing it. When I had one sub I could feel the tactile on the couch and with Audyssey I couldn't.


----------



## fbczar

asere said:


> My room measures roughly 5200cf. I haven't ran Audyssey yet for the dual set up and wasn't planning on doing it. When I had one sub I could feel the tactile on the couch and with Audyssey I couldn't.


I never had any real success with Audyssey, although there a few tricks you can use. I always better off setting up the subs manually. I use Dirac now and it works very well.

Are your subs set at 85db now?


----------



## asere

fbczar said:


> I never had any real success with Audyssey, although there a few tricks you can use. I always better off setting up the subs manually. I use Dirac now and it works very well.
> 
> Are your subs set at 85db now?


 Yes at 85db now. The avr sub trim is at +2.5.
If I bring the trim down to read 75db then the trim is around -10 in order to achieve that. That to me is strange.


----------



## asere

lesmor said:


> Yes the external fuse will be Ok but there are 2 internal fuses one for each amp
> There are a few ways to check
> If you can graph the subs play one and save the result play the second and overlay they should both be identical.
> Or play a 50Hz tone (or some music) then switch the sub off whicle listening to the cabinet you should hear one amp power down closely followed by the second amp.
> Repeat on the second sub
> Or if you have an energy monitoring adapter plug it into the electrical socked and then the sub into the adapter check how many amps are showing i.e 20amp idle
> Then check the second sub which should read the same.
> I was shocked to find that on one of my Quattro stacks 3 subs had a blown internal fuse.
> Caveat Fuse problems are more common in the UK


Do I need to remove the driver to check the internal fuses?


----------



## lesmor

asere said:


> Do I need to remove the driver to check the internal fuses?


No you should clearly hear one amp power down followed by the second amp


----------



## asere

lesmor said:


> No you should clearly hear one amp power down followed by the second amp


Can I just play some music to test amps? What would be in 50hz range?


----------



## lesmor

asere said:


> Can I just play some music to test amps? What would be in 50hz range?


That is what I also suggested


----------



## fbczar

asere said:


> Yes at 85db now. The avr sub trim is at +2.5.
> If I bring the trim down to read 75db then the trim is around -10 in order to achieve that. That to me is strange.


According to Ken the best starting point, in a manual set-up, is to set your subwoofers between 78db and 81db and your other speakers to 75db. You can adjust the subs up or down after that. If you do not have the subs in a corner you should definitely try that. My DXD-12012's are in a corner behind my listening position and they work well.


----------



## asere

fbczar said:


> According to Ken the best starting point, in a manual set-up, is to set your subwoofers between 78db and 81db and your other speakers to 75db. You can adjust the subs up or down after that. If you do not have the subs in a corner you should definitely try that. My DXD-12012's are in a corner behind my listening position and they work well.


When I get home I will run REW again and see what it shows individually and together. I will also put on music and power OFF each sub of one at a time and hear the amps turn off. If all is good I will run Audyssey just for the distance and trim, levels (and minor adjustments after) and disengage afterwards if I don't like what I am hearing.


----------



## willis7469

asere said:


> I now have two DXD 12012 subs. Last night I stacked and turned them on with all settings set to green dot. Listening to movie I could NOT hear a difference as it sounded like having only 1 sub.
> I measured with REW and the botton sub lost spl around 30hz and the top sub at around 20hz or 18 hz. I then ran REW again this time with both subs combined it read like just having the top sub alone.
> Normally can this happen were one sub is different on the graph than the other?



I've never co-located subs before, but I'm sure it will sound like only having one sub with the exception of more output. The benefit of 2 is placing them in different locations. As far as reading differently, the top one is probably far enough off the floor to make it read differently. I'm only speculating there because slight differences from boundaries( 2' off the floor vs on the floor for the bottom one), and in KK subs pointing at, or away from walls are recommended for tuning. Are you planning on keeping them together? Or separating them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## willis7469

asere said:


> Can I just play some music to test amps? What would be in 50hz range?



Anything with a punchy kick drum. They normally have good 50hz information. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## asere

willis7469 said:


> I've never co-located subs before, but I'm sure it will sound like only having one sub with the exception of more output. The benefit of 2 is placing them in different locations. As far as reading differently, the top one is probably far enough off the floor to make it read differently. I'm only speculating there because slight differences from boundaries( 2' off the floor vs on the floor for the bottom one), and in KK subs pointing at, or away from walls are recommended for tuning. Are you planning on keeping them together? Or separating them?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes I'm planning on only co locating them. I tried to hear if the amps click off and can't hear it.
I'm sure the top reads different because like you said it's placement and one is higher up.


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## willis7469

I'll assume you're only looking for extra output vs smoothing. I would say phase adjustments per sub so they measure the same, and maybe a distance adjustment in the avr to tighten up the impulse response,(and maybe smooth the crossover region) and you should be good. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## asere

willis7469 said:


> I'll assume you're only looking for extra output vs smoothing. I would say phase adjustments per sub so they measure the same, and maybe a distance adjustment in the avr to tighten up the impulse response,(and maybe smooth the crossover region) and you should be good.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep. I haven't done audyssey yet as I don't like what it does which I lose the tactile and mid bass. 
Now if I do audyssey it will set the phase but if I turn audyssey off like I like it I'm assuming the phase will then have to be done manually correct?


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## willis7469

Not sure which audyssey you have, but I would do it manually first anyways. Then audyssey has less to screw up. 


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## asere

willis7469 said:


> Not sure which audyssey you have, but I would do it manually first anyways. Then audyssey has less to screw up.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well on the kk subs it's a green dot setting for the phase so I just leave it there.


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## willis7469

asere said:


> Well on the kk subs it's a green dot setting for the phase so I just leave it there.



That probably just means 0degrees. You might have to adjust one of them so they measure the same. Then set distance, and/or let audyssey do its thing. Still using the 805?


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Yep. Zero degrees.


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## asere

willis7469 said:


> That probably just means 0degrees. You might have to adjust one of them so they measure the same. Then set distance, and/or let audyssey do its thing. Still using the 805?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes it's 0 but that's were it needs to be since the green dot is at 0.
Yes still with the 805.


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## willis7469

asere said:


> Yes it's 0 but that's were it needs to be since the green dot is at 0.
> Yes still with the 805.



Not necessarily. Thats just a good starting point. That's an important adjustment tool. Especially with multiple subs. Also to my knowledge, older versions of audyssey, like ours don't do much in the sub region. Especially the integration like you need. Like i said, I've never stacked subs, so I could be going down the wrong road, but my gut says when you get it set up right, you won't be on the green dots. 


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## asere

willis7469 said:


> Not necessarily. Thats just a good starting point. That's an important adjustment tool. Especially with multiple subs. Also to my knowledge, older versions of audyssey, like ours don't do much in the sub region. Especially the integration like you need. Like i said, I've never stacked subs, so I could be going down the wrong road, but my gut says when you get it set up right, you won't be on the green dots.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have the XT version. I'm just phase deaf. I can't tell the difference when I move the knob.


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## willis7469

asere said:


> I have the XT version. I'm just phase deaf. I can't tell the difference when I move the knob.



It would be hard to tell. You'd need someone to adjust while you stayed in the LP. My guess is since they're close to the mains, you'd want to take the bottom sub out by only a few degrees. Then the combined response at the LP might be the same, and then you could alter the combined phase with the distance setting in the avr. REW would be able to show you the results of this. 


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## theJman

willis7469 said:


> Not necessarily. Thats just a good starting point. That's an important adjustment tool. Especially with multiple subs.


+1

The green dots are a suggested setting and certainly not the end-all-be-all. Adjustments exist to be adjusted, so don't fear deviating from those settings.


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## asere

I just saw Goosebumps. I felt the couch back and armrest vibrate like never before. I think I just needed to really sit thru something to really see its potential. Much different than a single one. 

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## B- one

asere said:


> I just saw Goosebumps. I felt the couch back and armrest vibrate like never before. I think I just needed to really sit thru something to really see its potential. Much different than a single one. Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


Watch Spectre,it will be a good time!


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## asere

B- one said:


> Watch Spectre,it will be a good time!


Spectre will be on my list thanks. Watching Everest right now.


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## JBrax

asere said:


> Spectre will be on my list thanks. Watching Everest right now.


 A good movie but I'm surprised you're not watching something with lots of LFE.


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## asere

JBrax said:


> A good movie but I'm surprised you're not watching something with lots of LFE.


Lol I thought Everest would have great LFE.


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## asere

Is a combined spl of 85 db for 2 subs considered hot?

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## willis7469

asere said:


> Is a combined spl of 85 db for 2 subs considered hot?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk



Does it sound hot to you? Lol. That's a matter of taste of course. I set mine for 82. It's a balance for me, since I like my music with a little more bottom, but I like movies a little flatter. I can't stand when a car door shuts and it's like an earthquake, and I don't flat sounding music. It's a house curve that works out ok. For me. Others might go a different direction. 


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## asere

willis7469 said:


> Does it sound hot to you? Lol. That's a matter of taste of course. I set mine for 82. It's a balance for me, since I like my music with a little more bottom, but I like movies a little flatter. I can't stand when a car door shuts and it's like an earthquake, and I don't flat sounding music. It's a house curve that works out ok. For me. Others might go a different direction.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


sounds really good for me at 85db. At 80 I get not much tactile lol.
Now one sub at 85db is not the same as two at 85db.


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## JBrax

I've got mine set at 75db but I have it bumped up in the AVR. Probably on the hot side but nothing bloated. Like Willis I'm not a fan of wall shaking bass from the shutting of a car door.


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## JBrax

asere said:


> Lol I thought Everest would have great LFE.


 I don't remember it having much. What I do remember is being cold the entire movie.


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## asere

JBrax said:


> I've got mine set at 75db but I have it bumped up in the AVR. Probably on the hot side but nothing bloated. Like Willis I'm not a fan of wall shaking bass from the shutting of a car door.


Lol yeah maybe I need to bring it down to 80db.


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## JBrax

asere said:


> Lol yeah maybe I need to bring it down to 80db.


 Have you tried bumping it up within the AVR? You might try it that way and see if it works for you. It's been a long time since I fiddled as I'm in the set it and forget it stage with my setup.


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## asere

JBrax said:


> Have you tried bumping it up within the AVR? You might try it that way and see if it works for you. It's been a long time since I fiddled as I'm in the set it and forget it stage with my setup.


Yes all the bump up/down is from the avr. Audyssey set my trim to -12 for a 75db. Not enough bass so I did manual at 85db.


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## JBrax

asere said:


> Yes all the bump up/down is from the avr. Audyssey set my trim to -12 for a 75db. Not enough bass so I did manual at 85db.


 Ah I gotcha. Yes, -12 seems pretty low. Anyway congrats on finding a twin KK.


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## asere

JBrax said:


> Ah I gotcha. Yes, -12 seems pretty low. Anyway congrats on finding a twin KK.


Thanks


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## asere

lesmor said:


> Have you checked for blown internal fuses?


Ok I could hear the amp power off for the top sub but for the life of me I could not hear the amp turn off for the bottom sub.
Can it still work even if a fuse is blown on the inside?
I wonder if the output is much more for the top sub because it sits higher than the bottom sub.


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## asere

Based on the KK web pics when stacking, the bottom driver is facing the wall and the top is facing away from the wall.
Can you actually arrange it the other way around bottom facing the room instead?
I ask because I don't really have a solid corner. The only corner would be next to a fireplace that's diagonal. Having said that the amp would face the fireplace and if I change the subs the amp would be facing the component rack.

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## willis7469

I'm assuming you're stacking them due to floor space?
I think KK would have the best information. 


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## asere

willis7469 said:


> I'm assuming you're stacking them due to floor space?
> I think KK would have the best information.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That and also because they were designed that way.


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## willis7469

asere said:


> I wonder if the output is much more for the top sub because it sits higher than the bottom sub.


I would think the bottom sub would have more output being closer to a room boundary. 



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## willis7469

asere said:


> That and also because they were designed that way.



Never knew that. What does he say about not stacking them? Putting them in different locations for example. 


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## asere

willis7469 said:


> I would think the bottom sub would have more output being closer to a room boundary.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree. Now they both measure the same individually at 75db.


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## asere

willis7469 said:


> Never knew that. What does he say about not stacking them? Putting them in different locations for example.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As far as I know he has never said not to. He just always member to place them stacked in a corner primarily a back corner away from openings. That way you get the 3D pulsar effect that he designed.


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## willis7469

Well, if there's a function that's built in to the design, you might as well do what you can. I'm not super familiar with KK's designs so I don't know about the 3D pulsar thing. 


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## asere

I've been watching more and more movies and the subs deliver fantastically. I get the tactile feeling at MLP like never before. I just can't go to loud because I get a pop sound but only from time to time depending on the material and only happens with audyssey engaged.
I had the same issue with one sub and thought two would take care of that but I guess not.
I'm thinking audyssey is boosting something somehow.
I do have the Onkyo 805 and that could be the issue since it's old without DEQ compared to a newer receiver that has DEQ.



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## asere

I ran REW because one of my dxd 12012 had less output then the other I figured one fuse was bad. Each dxd had 2 amps and 2 fuses. The fuses are ok because I checked them.
Ken asked me to hear the subs for 2 sounds as each amp powers on and off I should be able to hear 2 sounds. With the bad sub I only hear 1 thump not like the other that has 2 thumps.
Having said that can one amp be bad since I only hear one thump even if the fuses are ok?
Again per Ken I should be able to hear 2 thumps as the subs power on and off.
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## theJman

You can absolutely have a bad amp with a good fuse. There's a whole lot that can go wrong when amplifying a signal.


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## asere

theJman said:


> You can absolutely have a bad amp with a good fuse. There's a whole lot that can go wrong when amplifying a signal.


I hope I can send the amps for repair.

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## theJman

asere said:


> I hope I can send the amps for repair.


What's the chance there's just a loose connector?


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## asere

theJman said:


> What's the chance there's just a loose connector?


I checked the cables from the amp to the drivers and they were connected. I even played music and both drivers were vibrating.

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## theJman

asere said:


> I checked the cables from the amp to the drivers and they were connected. I even played music and both drivers were vibrating.


That's rather odd then. Sounds like something for Ken to assist with.


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## lesmor

asere said:


> I checked the cables from the amp to the drivers and they were connected. I even played music and both drivers were vibrating.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


If you have been inside the amp to check the cables you should have been able to check the internal fuses.
Did you do this?


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## asere

lesmor said:


> If you have been inside the amp to check the cables you should have been able to check the internal fuses.
> Did you do this?


Yes the two fuses are ok too.

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## asere

Now Ken mentioned that a fuse can look good but still be bad. Has anyone experienced this before?

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## theJman

asere said:


> Now Ken mentioned that a fuse can look good but still be bad. Has anyone experienced this before?


I have. To know for sure you need to check it with a meter because the wire can appear intact, when in reality it's not.


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## asere

theJman said:


> I have. To know for sure you need to check it with a meter because the wire can appear intact, when in reality it's not.


From what I've read using ohm meter I need to place the meter on the highest setting of 200m and with the fuse taken out measure the fuse, correct?

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## theJman

asere said:


> From what I've read using ohm meter I need to place the meter on the highest setting of 200m and with the fuse taken out measure the fuse, correct?


Most meters have a setting for continuity, sometimes called a diode test. It usually has an audio tone when you have a complete circuit. That's what I use on my Fluke.


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## asere

theJman said:


> Most meters have a setting for continuity, sometimes called a diode test. It usually has an audio tone when you have a complete circuit. That's what I use on my Fluke.


I did continuity and it beeped and the numbers fluctuated really fast up and down.

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## theJman

asere said:


> I did continuity and it beeped and the numbers fluctuated really fast up and down.


Not sure why the numbers would fluctuate, but you won't hear a beep on an open circuit so the fuse is good.


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## asere

theJman said:


> Not sure why the numbers would fluctuate, but you won't hear a beep on an open circuit so the fuse is good.


I checked the wires again and nothing is loose. I contacted the amp manufacturer and waiting to hear back.

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## asere

Ok guys, I recently bought a second dxd-12012 to get the 3D effect. I placed them stacked and ran REW. Sure enough the new sub had a much better output. I did the test combined and separate. In fact the newer one has better output than when it was combined. 
I did the test by turning the subs on and off to hear each amp come on and off as each sub has 2 amps.
Anyhow it turned out all this time one of the subs driver wasn't on because the amp was not working. Fuses all look good too.
When I had the one sub it always lost output and I blamed it on room size. Having the second one to compare I have really missed out all this time. Thankfully the amp is going to be serviced.

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## bassnectar13

Hello...Can you advise the length of xlr fem to xlr fem cable required to connect stacked 12012's...Thanks


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## fbczar

bassnectar13 said:


> Hello...Can you advise the length of xlr fem to xlr fem cable required to connect stacked 12012's...Thanks


18" is ideal.


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## bassnectar13

Thanks for fast reply...much appreciated info.


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## theJman

3 feet (or 1 meter) should be plenty.


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## Audiofan1

Nice to still see DXD owners enjoying their sub or subs! I know I am:boxer:


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## asere

How many here have gone against Ken's advise of stacking them and instead have separated them and placed them in different areas?


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