# Cedar Creek Cinema colors...



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Here's a recent close up shot of our HT room showing the colors...











Here's an older broader shot...











Here's yet another shot and you can see the color difference between cameras... I'm terrible at figuring out cameras to take the right kind of pics. I'm hoping when JimP comes to visit he'll be able to help me get some good shots then.












So... when I ordered the acoustic panels I thought I was getting a good match, but ended up not doing so well. I stuck them up anyway and now they are there. They are supposed to be removable but I've tried to remove one and it's gonna tear it up if I do.

The wall color is Dark Burgundy and the cloth for the acoustic panels is supposed to be Dark Burgundy... obviously there are two Dark Burgundy's. 

I've been thinking about this color thing for a while now and was planning on getting a shade of burgundy to better match the acoustic panels. I've also consider maybe a different color. Maybe a shade of gray, but not sure how the front wall would look with it just gray or if I should just go ahead and paint the entire room a shade of gray.

Looking for suggestions on color improvements. I'm not sure there is much I can do with the panels and their color.


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## Otto (May 18, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> Looking for suggestions on color improvements. I'm not sure there is much I can do with the panels and their color.


Hey Sonnie,

Well, I'm no expert on color schemes for dedicated theaters, but I like the idea of grays and blacks taking over. Perhaps your "dark burgundy" acoustic panels will provide a splash of color and contrast. 

Or if you don't like the panels the color they are now, could you dye them? Something that wouldn't change their acoustic properties? Sounds like you weren't too optimistic about getting them down, so this would probably be a big pain. If you change the wall color, are you going to have to paint around them? That's no fun either!

As to your comments about not being able to take good photos -- have you ever tried a tripod and a longer exposure time? Don't use your camera's flash; rather, use a diffuse light source from behind the camera, which you may want to bring in just for the photos. I'm not much of a photo expert either, but I can get really "warm" pictures by doing that. One of these days, I'll try to get some better pics of my system as well -- no promises that they be great, though!

Anyway, just some ideas as I was looking at your pics. Your room and system looks very well put together!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Yeah... painting is not my favorite thing. At least it's not like a lot to have to paint. I figured I could mask tape the edges of the panels and paint around them.


I have tried my tripod with longer exposure times but they turned out worse than the "auto" setting with the flash. However, I haven't thought about bringing in some sort of external lighting source. That might be the ticket. Those lights in there now don't put off too much light.

Thanks on the room and system comp!


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

Sonnie,

Here are some options to consider:

1. A flat black ceiling is the best for your dedicated room. I wouldn't settle for anything short of that. However, my demo theater only has black on the front half of the ceiling. The back half is white to help illuminate the room for cleaning, etc. My ideal would be paying a mural artist to paint art deco clouds on the ceiling, starting about half way back in darker grays (like storm clouds) and gradually transition to whiter clouds in the back of the room. The cloud-scape could even spill down onto the walls some. I wouldn't want hardly any white on the walls, especially for front projection.

2. The walls could be a darkish medium gray with a contrasting faux texture laid on top in burgundy, beige (like your chairs) and/or blue. Something like I've seen done with a sea sponge would be simple. There are texturing rollers that work fairly well. 

3. Plain fabric acoustic panels can be textured in a similar way. Use thicker acrylic paint that sits on top of the fabric rather than soaking in. I've used a similar technique to transfer stencils onto fabric years ago. You can also look into making your own large stencils for the front panels. I would use black or dark gray for the stenciled design on the panels.

How did you mount the panels? It's not clear to me why it would be so difficult to pull them off the wall. You didn't glue them, did you?

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
ISF, THX, SMPTE, CEDIA

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"


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## Phil M (Apr 19, 2006)

Alan Brown said:


> Sonnie,
> 
> 
> 1. A flat black ceiling is the best for your dedicated room. I wouldn't settle for anything short of that. However, my demo theater only has black on the front half of the ceiling. The back half is white to help illuminate the room for cleaning, etc. My ideal would be paying a mural artist to paint art deco clouds on the ceiling, starting about half way back in darker grays (like storm clouds) and gradually transition to whiter clouds in the back of the room. The cloud-scape could even spill down onto the walls some. I wouldn't want hardly any white on the walls, especially for front projection.


I like this idea Alan, my ISF calibrater had his head in his hands, sobbing no no no, when he first came to calibrate my CRT projector and saw my white ceiling. For his next visit the ceiling had been painted the same as my walls (light grey), and this time the sobbing stopped but he did shake his head and mutter to himself - why doesn't this guy get it. But he's right, my ceiling reflects to much light from my DLP, and he suggested the ideal would be to have a black fabric pinned up their.
I have an RSJ half way across, and I'm going to try using a flat black for the half closest to the screen.

When you've been around a little longer Alan you'll realise that suggesting to Sonnie having to PAY a mural artist will have sent him to the hospital with chest pains :run: He'll get the family and kids to do it for free :T


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Exactly... you talking to a hillbilly here... not sure we could even find a mural artist in our neck of the woods. 

Painting the ceiling flat black is not a problem. Painting the walls a medium-dark gray is not a problem. I'm not sure I understand the other part to add burgundy... do you mean where you could still see the gray but there would be some burgundy on top?

I've seen some sponge type rollers that are supposed to add texture to ceilings and walls but haven't ever seen what the end result looked like using any of them.


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

The cloud thing was what I want to do in my demo theater. I really wasn't implying that you would/could/should do it in yours. The faux texture paint method just adds a little random color on top of the gray base. It would simply be some accent to play off the panel color. Are you going to answer my questions about how you mounted your panels?

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
ISF, THX, SMPTE, CEDIA

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Oh yeah... I forgot.... sorry. If I remember correctly I used the included velcro. When I attempted to remove one of them it started to break. It might be that I could possibly get some type of stiff wide spatula and get it behind the panel and remove them easier. When I tried with my hands it wasn't working too well.

If I could get them removed I might re-attach them with some 1/2" to 1" spacers to allow some space behind them... maybe they would be more effective. Plus I need to raise the ones on the sides a little now that my newer speakers are taller.

My ceiling is midnight blue now... I might just add some flat black painted areas... more particularly on the front half.


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## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

Sonnie:

I've said it before, the room looks great and very professional. I have a few comments and questions though.

The walls look very smooth and is the type of look I'd like to have. What type of paint did you use, a matte or flat paint? How many coats? Did you primer it etc...

Again I think it looks great and this may be the camera but it does seem a lot lighter then a Dark Burgundy. Seems like a Pinkish Burgundy. 

By the pictures it looks like the panels may be more of a Burgundy. I would say how it the picture and the reflection in the room? If that could be optimized more you may want to paint darker and match your panels.

I'm considering a Dark Burgundy for the walls and black trim and ceiling for mine but I dont think the blue you picked is much different and dont for see any problems with it specially when the lights are dimmed.

I can see you painted the wall sconces, are they glass, metal or plastic?

I know the ceiling needs to be dark specially in the front of the room, does the same apply for the floor carpet? We still have to make are carpet selections and I havent decided what color to use for there yet.

What are the small round things on the back and side wall?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Tommy said:


> The walls look very smooth and is the type of look I'd like to have. What type of paint did you use, a matte or flat paint? How many coats? Did you primer it etc...


Thanks Tommy... the paint is flat, just an ACE brand flat and yes I did use Kilz 2 as a primer. Three coats of paint.




Tommy said:


> Again I think it looks great and this may be the camera but it does seem a lot lighter then a Dark Burgundy. Seems like a Pinkish Burgundy.


I can't get the camera to show the true color. In the room the wall looks more like a dark burgundy and the panels look more like dark red. In the pics it does look like it has a pinkish tint or some might think a violet tint.




Tommy said:


> I would say how is the picture and the reflection in the room?


No reflections that I've noticed at all. I just don't know if the color on the front wall might be causing my pic to not be precise as it could be. Alan did say burgundy was not as bad as some other colors.... but I would like to match up or contrast the panel color to the wall color. I still may try again to remove the panels.




Tommy said:


> I can see you painted the wall sconces, are they glass, metal or plastic?


They are ceramic. 20 bucks each from ACE hardware.




Tommy said:


> What are the small round things on the back and side wall?


Those are speaker terminal pads. This is where I had two side speakers but it didn't sound right for the rear seating. I tried 6.1 too, but the rear center was just too much in my narrow room. I ended up moving the surrounds to the rear corners... now they sound fine for all listening positions... with a tad more presense from the rear seating than the front row since they are setup for the front row.


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

Sonnie,



> If I could get them removed I might re-attach them with some 1/2" to 1" spacers to allow some space behind them... maybe they would be more effective.


Good idea! The 1" spacing would be better. Acoustic absorption occurs by slowing the speed of the sound vibrations in the air through friction in the panel structure. The goal is to ultimately convert all that energy into heat. The air particle velocity is reduced near the wall surface. Allowing it to pass all the way through, bounce off the wall, then pass into the panel structure again is considered to be nearly equivalent to using a 2" thick panel for less cost. That's the theory I was taught.

Tommy,



> I know the ceiling needs to be dark specially in the front of the room, does the same apply for the floor carpet?


Dark carpet helps, too. Usually the screen ends up closer to the ceiling, so that's the first place to consider a dark color. Since the carpet is fuzzy, less light will reflect from a lighter color. It's also advisable to use felt type pad vs. foam rubber. The felt has better sound absorbing properties than foam. Some people use a lighter color of carpet in the room and place a dark area rug in front of the screen.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
ISF, THX, SMPTE, CEDIA

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"


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## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> No reflections that I've noticed at all. I just don't know if the color on the front wall might be causing my pic to not be precise as it could be. Alan did say burgundy was not as bad as some other colors.... but I would like to match up or contrast the panel color to the wall color. I still may try again to remove the panels.


I just asked this for Alan in another thread too but since it applies to what you said I'll mention it here also.

Now I am planning on painting the front wall black and the side walls a dark burgundy with black ceiling and trim. Alan’s statement makes it seem that although it may be marginally acceptable it is not preferable to use the dark burgundy. I’m wondering why and what is better then? Being as most movie theaters are some similar type of shade to this I would think this would be the best color to pick from besides painting the whole room black.

Are there any reviews, studies or comparisions that point out which colors or color patterns are better then others as it applies to a home theater besides just saying choose a neutral color.


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

What SMPTE has recommended for additional colors in an ideal viewing environment are the "nearly neutrals" from the Munsell Color Order System. These colors are pastels and "nearly whites." You probably won't find this set of Munsell references very easily. I have a book of reference color samples but they're over $500.00 just for the nearly neutrals and nearly whites, with an incomplete set of neutrals in the back.

The nearly neutrals start out as a pale pastel but extend in value (light to dark) all the way into some pretty dark shades. As they darken they don't increase much in chroma (richness of color) but look more like increased amounts of black are added to the mix. Burgundy can be a nearly neutral. This gives them a gray-ish character so that they don't turn vivid color shades. The entire color spectrum is represented.

Munsell developed the original color order system that Pantone and other subsequent systems are based upon. This was over 100 years ago. Therefore, there are many sources for this category of colors. 

Bright or vivid colors can be used as accents in a video viewing environment, but the dominant color scheme should be neutral to nearly neutral. Again, this methodology is for rooms where image fidelity and color accuracy in the video picture is top priority.

With front projection theaters, the front wall can have a little color in it as long as it's darker. When the lights go out, and the screen lights up, it will appear to be black. This is acceptable since the light coming off of the screen never shines onto the front wall. An exception would be where the ceiling is white or another boundary near the front wall is light enough to bounce light from the screen onto the front wall.

Don't use what you see in actual theaters as your guide. Use the documented SMPTE standards and practices. There are plenty of mistakes made in public venues or magazine photos. The THX Theater Alignment Program (TAP) recommendations are based upon SMPTE's work. If you don't mind a contaminated screen image, do whatever you want.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
ISF, THX, SMPTE, CEDIA

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

Sonnie,

A few minor changes via photoshop. :devil:


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

Then again, if you are looking for a wall color to tie everything together (carpet, chairs, acoustical panels), you might want to try this.


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

Gray didn't look bad either.


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## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

You missed a spot.... :laugh:


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## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

If only it was that easy to paint the room


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Cool... hey... I do like the gray... maybe a little darker shade though. The gray and blue looks good together.

How bout a darker ceiling too?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Or should I make the panels a darker color too?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Even the trim colors darker blue...


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

Sonnie,

Didn't know you were also skilled in the art of photoshop.


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## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

Sonnie, you colored outside of the lines... :nono:


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> Or should I make the panels a darker color too?



I kind of like the panels their original color as accents against the gray.


You could do the walls first and see how it looks, then if necessary the panels.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I've never been that good with a paint brush... in real life or on the computer.


Hey Jim... you can bring your paint brush with you when you come to visit... :yes: We can have a painting day at Cedar Creek Cinema! What a great idea!


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

Where was that spray gun.


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## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

JimP said:


> Where was that spray gun.


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

Tommy
That do paint??


Sonnie,
I'm actually a fairly decent painter. If you need some help, let me know.


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## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

you didnt mention paint... but I guess it could add a decorative look to the room :R


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## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

Sonnie, have you compared the reflections in the room to the picture itself?

What I mean is put up a few still pictures on the screen, take a picture with a camera and then try adding say a dark drape or sheet to at least the front wall and then take some pictures with the camera again and compare it to see if there is any noticeable difference to the picture quality.

I dont think you see any noticable difference when the lights are dimmed but would be curious to see the results.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

lol... yeah, there are different kinds of spray guns huh.

I haven't tried it, no. I mainly haven't been happy with the wall color versus my panel color and have been wanting to do something about it. It's true that I may not notice a difference with the projected image... for the most part, but I'll definitely notice he difference between the walls and panels if I change the wall color.

I may take an image screen shot before and after just to see if there is a noticeable difference. It wouldn't really be that big of a deal to do.


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

Tommy,



> Sonnie, have you compared the reflections in the room to the picture itself?
> 
> What I mean is put up a few still pictures on the screen, take a picture with a camera and then try adding say a dark drape or sheet to at least the front wall and then take some pictures with the camera again and compare it to see if there is any noticeable difference to the picture quality.
> 
> I dont think you see any noticable difference when the lights are dimmed but would be curious to see the results.


Please explain this further. I don't understand your point. What is your objective? 

A camera doesn't perceive images like a human does. It's also extremely difficult to communicate color and luminance subtleties accurately with a camera from a front projection image. You must consider all the potential variables: camera settings, monitor type, monitor settings, printer settings, etc.

Here's an interesting link that addresses some of these camera issues: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5787436&&#post5787436 .

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
ISF, THX, SMPTE, CEDIA

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"


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## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

Alan Brown said:


> You must consider all the potential variables: camera settings, monitor type, monitor settings, printer settings, etc."


And what settings would change? The camera setting, monitor type, monitor settings, printer settings would be exactly the same for each picture...

The point was simple, to see if there is a difference from one picture with the wall colored one way to the same picture taken if he darkened the walls.


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

Tommy,



> And what settings would change? The camera setting, monitor type, monitor settings, printer settings would be exactly the same for each picture...


I get it now.:duh: 



> try adding say a dark drape or sheet to at least the front wall


By "front wall" do you mean the same wall the screen is mounted to? If so, that would be the one room surface to affect the image on the screen the least.


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## Fincave (Apr 20, 2006)

Re: attaching acoustic panels. When I put my panels up I kind of racked my brain as to what would be the easiest and best way as at some stage I may want to take them down and change the fabric/colour of them. I ended up borrowing (and changing slightly) an idea from somebody's homepage. I drilled a hole into the wall about 2" from the top of the panel and equidistant from the edges. I then glued a metal washer onto the rear of the panel and made a small indentation in the panel itself (need to use quite a bit of glue as the panels absorb quite a large amount). Using screws the panel can then be mounted onto the wall (and taken down) in seconds. Not sure will this work for you as do not know what panels you are using and how heavy they are, for my panels it is the best I could come up with. Hope this helps and makes some sense!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Well, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna change the colors anyway. But it might be interesting to snap a shot and just see if there is any improvement. It might be a good testing procedure of sorts I suppose.

The key would definitely be to keep all settings the same and even snap the shot from the same location. It might be that I can set my camera on the tripod, snap a shot of a couple different still scenes, paint that front wall and part way down the side, then after it dries (couple of coats), snap another shot. Granted it might not be a great shot for true colors and such, but it should show differences if there are any.


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

I doubt that the front wall would make that much of a difference as its pretty dark to start with.

On the other hand, that tan carpet is very likely reflecting some light back onto the screen. Might be worth exploring an area rug below the screen.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Yeah... it would be easy to toss a large dark rug down in front of the cabinet there.


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