# Avr question



## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

I know this technically isn't REW related(Or is it)but you guys have been so much help i wanted to ask here.
My receiver a Yamaha Rxv1800 has ,of course bass and treble settings and swfr level setting but also a lfe output setting.
The fronts are set to small,80 hz xover set at receiver and i have the 2 subs,one for 15-45 hz the other for 45-80 hz.
how do these settings play together?When i run rew in 2 channel mode i would think that im bypassing the lfe level setting,so when i play a blu ray disc with the lfe level how do i know what im getting as far as level?it wouldnt be show in my rew graphs right?
BTW i have bass and treble set to 0db,swfr level is currently at +6db and lfe level is at 0db(its range is 0db to -20db)
Thanks
Dean


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Hi Dean,

REW doesn't know or care that you're using dual range-specific subs. It will measure the combined output of both. REW will tell show if one is louder or quieter than the other; get their levels adjusted for the best response and you're in business. :T

Regards,
Wayne


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Hi Dean,
> 
> REW doesn't know or care that you're using dual range-specific subs. It will measure the combined output of both. REW will tell show if one is louder or quieter than the other; get their levels adjusted for the best response and you're in business. :T
> 
> ...


Thanks Wayne.
As i stated in the other post,im finally "getting close"i just still feel im slightly weak in the 50-80 hz area,for example me and my daughter watched madagascar 2 the other night and there is a scene where a shark jumps on the beach.On the blu ray forum everyone is ranting about the "awesome bass"
during this scene,i didnt notice any thing spectacular here but during another scene that no one mentions,i had impressive bass(the ho,i think)
also with music the kick drum doesnt have that"impact".
what freq area is kick drum bass?
However when i run freq sweeps the levels sound about even all the way around?this is why i thought in 2 channel mode as in when running rew i have it about right but when the lfe channel is added i have something else?

Thanks again Wayne


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

jdeanmc said:


> what freq area is kick drum bass?


That depends but the kick you feel in the chest is usually down around 30Hz 

The part in the movie you talk about is up in the higher 45Hz range there is lots of information in that area in Madagascar. The part where the really low frequency shark scene is lower at about 20Hz.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> On the blu ray forum everyone is ranting about the "awesome bass"


How do we know if their subs are properly calibrated. 



> As i stated in the other post,im finally "getting close"i just still feel im slightly weak in the 50-80 hz area,for example


Can you post your latest subs and combined graphs?

Regards,
Wayne


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

well then,i need to maybe bump up my house curve a little to get the ho(15-45hz)up a bit.
Thanks.
P.s.the part that was pretty impressive with my current eqing was when they fixed the dam and got the water flowing.


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> How do we know if their subs are properly calibrated.
> 
> Can you post your latest subs and combined graphs?
> 
> ...


I did think the same thing!
I will get my latest graphs up.
Thanks
Dean


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

here are my latest measurments.
i am using 2 filters.20.25, -16 ,13 and 26.95, -8, 7.i cant eq down that 55 hz hump.it just wont budge?so i delelted that filter.
everything is smoothed 1/3. 
first two are subs only,3rd and 4th are full range
any idea whats going on in the 2k to 3k range?im hoping spl meter shortcomings?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Use the unsmoothed setting for your sub graphs. The RS meter is only accurate out to about 3 kHz, but it seems like you could have some issues in tha range. You'd have to get set up for full range EQ before you'd know for sure.

Regards,
Wayne


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Use the unsmoothed setting for your sub graphs. The RS meter is only accurate out to about 3 kHz, but it seems like you could have some issues in tha range. You'd have to get set up for full range EQ before you'd know for sure.
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


Ok Wayne,
Ill repost tonight with graphs unsmoothed.
I am concerned with that 2-3k hz isuue.ill get a galaxy mic and see what it looks like then,any speculation on what could be going on there?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> any speculation on what could be going on there?


Not without seeing a full range graph. Who knows, you might find that everything above 2 kHz looks good and the problem really is everything _below_ 2 kHz. 

Regards,
Wayne


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

heres the same graphs as above unsmoothed.can you tell more from this?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Nope...

Regards,
Wayne


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> How do we know if their subs are properly calibrated.
> 
> Can you post your latest subs and combined graphs?
> 
> ...


Sorry,i backed up a post or two.
You wanted to see latest subs and combined unsmoothed.
C'mon hit me with it!:boxer::bigsmile:


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Oh, okay...
Sub level might be a bit low, but overall everything looks good. :T

Regards,
Wayne


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Oh, okay...
> Sub level might be a bit low, but overall everything looks good. :T
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


Great!
i turned the Ho up a notch i didnt have time to really listen to it much but i did watch about 15 min of untraceable on directv and it did sound a bit better.Ill try watching something tonight on blu ray and see if i should turn the mbm up a hair.
Thanks Wayne
Dean


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

jdeanmc said:


> Great!
> i turned the Ho up a notch i didnt have time to really listen to it much but i did watch about 15 min of untraceable on directv and it did sound a bit better.Ill try watching something tonight on blu ray and see if i should turn the mbm up a hair.
> Thanks Wayne
> Dean


Hey Wayne,
I notice something last night that may explain why you've secretly asked yourself"why cant this guy get it,with all the help ive given him,he's still not happy with the sound!!!"addle:it has been the second colossal oversight on my part.First was the dynamic range setting in the avr.This time at some point over the last few months,between taking measurements,tweaking etc.MY TV SPEAKERS GOT TURNED ON!!!:gah:
I dont know how this effects everything,but im sure that it does.I assume the tv speakers wouldnt get a signal when running rew (2 channel mode through avr)but then they would when watching directv?
Anyway,ill rerun ypao and rew over the weekend and see what comes of that.
Thanks
Dean


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

I know that this would be a waste of time to most,but would there be any logic for me to hook up my spl meter with rew so that i had the correction file loaded and then run receiver test tones to get my subs blended better with the mains?
I would think that i would 1.turn off the ho(15-45 hz)and get the mbm 12(45-80hz) maybe a few db higher than the mains,then 2.turn the mbm off,ho on and get the ho 6-8 db higher than the mains?im thinking this would make it easier for me to get everything blended together better as i find i cant get this "just right"to my ears looking at the graphs above.
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Dean


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> would there be any logic for me to hook up my spl meter with rew so that i had the correction file loaded and then run receiver test tones to get my subs blended better with the mains?


No, the meter calibration file is not added to a REW response graph until after the measurement is taken.

brucek


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

brucek said:


> No, the meter calibration file is not added to a REW response graph until after the measurement is taken.
> 
> brucek


I gotcha,i didnt realize this,thanks Dean


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Not sure exactly what you're asking, Dean, but John says you can use REW sweeps to blend mains and subs. I'm like you, though - I can't tell that as well from looking at a graph as I can by ear.

Could it be that you just haven't managed to get a good EQ for the subs yet? EQing my new sub system the other day brought to mind once again that blending subs and mains isn't _nearly_ a difficult as getting an EQ curve that sounds right. _That_ is easier to distinguish with graphs. You might post some graphs for us as well as give a description of what you feel is audibly lacking.

Regards,
Wayne


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Wayne,
I dont know what happened but before i could respond to your post,it was gone?
I guess what im asking is that when i look at the graphs,its a little difficult for me to determine exactly where i want the subs response vs the mains.ie.its hard for me to tell when looking at the graph above(full range,unsmoothed)where the mains are 75 db,seems like i have alot above and below,same with the subs.i know ive got comb filtering but when i look at the graph i see...
15-45 hz (the ho) 86db
45-80 hz (the mbm12) 86 db
80-200 hz(the mains) 80db
i know im probably not interpreting this correctly but what i see is that the mbm and ho are both only 6 db higher than the mains and equal?if this is the case i could just bump the ho up a few db to get the 8db house curve and have the ho 2-3 db higher than the mbm and 8db higher than the mains.Again i know im splitting hairs,i just want to make sure im getting everything calibrated as well as i can and im not sure that i see what you guys see when looking at the same graphs.\
Thanks
Dean
p.s.Thanks again Bruce and Wayne!!!!


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Guys let me try to clarify my ramblings and whining.(i hope this is ok for this thread)
I think ive gotten pretty close for ht,i just retired my ps3 for blu ray usage and gave my father in law my old sony blu ray player,replaced it with a new pioneer 51fd last week and can say now with blu ray movies and everything bitstreamed to the pioneer,movies sound very impressive.
However when playing cd's,i can say its sounds better if i set fronts to large and cut off the subs,music sounds better,not that the subs are too hot for music,it just seems that when i play cd's at a pretty decent volume,the vocals are alot hotter than the music?i also notice the cymbals and such are almost muted to the point of being inaudible.I know alot of this contradicts itself,just giving my impressions.
Wayne,you noted that maybe that3000 hz peak isnt a peak at all but possibly where 3kto 30khz should be and everything below that is too low.you may be on to something.Ill have to get setup for fullrange measurements too see.I have 1 2"inch panel(first reflection)for each front speaker,maybe i need to add more for the first reflection points(right front for left wall,and vice versa)?i dont know which way to go,but i know something is lacking.Ive even called klipsch about replacing tweeters to see if they are having problems,they are pretty cheap to replace but i dont want to replace them unless i know there the culprit,or can find out if they are the culprit without swapping them out.
Thanks Again
Dean


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Take a deep breath, Dean! You're making this much harder than it needs to be!  

Can't help you with the vocals and cymbals without seeing a full-range graph, so let's just stick with the subs and bass for now. Are you still working off of these two graphs - subs and full-range?



















Blending with the mains is easy enough to tell: Using music as a reference, something you're familiar with that has some good bass in it (read mixed well, deep [read extension, not high volume] and clean, not muddy), do the subs sound over powering, or are they underwhelming? It's easy enough to turn them up or down until you get a good blend. Try 2-3 dB increments and fine-tune 1 dB when you get in the ballpark. However, if the EQ isn't right, then things still won't sound right, even if the subs and mains are blended "correctly."

If SQ is the issue, that's a litter tougher to sort out. You'll have to have some tracks that have a wide range of high and low bass notes, as well as in between. The goal is to get a good balance between low, mid and high bass. The high bass will primarily be coming from the mains, the mid from both mains and sub. 

Common complaints are that the bass sounds "bloated," or too "full." Or, that it sounds bottom heavy, like there's too much of the ultra-low stuff that you feel more than hear. The lowest bass notes come through really strong, but not much above them does, and kick drums sound unnaturally "subsonic." Even things like a car door closing in a movie may have all kinds of extraneous ultra-low-freq "umph." 

Both are basically house curve problems - not enough in the first case, too much in the latter. Or perhaps a hard-knee curve is in order.

Either of these scenarios describe what you're hearing?

Regards,
Wayne


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Take a deep breath, Dean! You're making this much harder than it needs to be!
> 
> Can't help you with the vocals and cymbals without seeing a full-range graph, so let's just stick with the subs and bass for now. Are you still working off of these two graphs - subs and full-range?
> 
> ...


Well overreacting is what i do best:mooooh:
These are indeed the most current graphs that i have.I havent really changed anything since,
The bloated or too full scenario is not what im dealing with.any bass that i feel comes from the mbm behind the sofa as i can cut off the ho and everything sounds the same.With movies the bass is o.k.with movies its very weak,not that im a "bass head"i dont want this to sound like my old car audio days of years past,trying to blow off a trunk lid!but it is very weak.the graphs dont show this,but my ears and my eyes dont seem to agree!!!
My avr has a lfe level(which default is 0db out of -20 to 0db)as well as a bass control and a swfr level.i wonder if these are the culprit.
Also because ive got 2 subs playing at different frequencies probably adds to my confusion.
Again thanks for all the help
Dean
P.s what is considered low bass/mid bass/high bass.i guess the ho would play low/mbm mid/mains high bass,but at what freq?
Maybe that 55 hz "hump"is part of my problem,however nothing seems to get rid of this.eqing doesnt budge it?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> The bloated or too full scenario is not what im dealing with. any bass that i feel comes from the mbm behind the sofa as i can cut off the ho and everything sounds the same.


If that’s what you’re getting with action flicks, I’d say turn up the HO a bit. You should definitely be feeling some ultra-low energy with explosions and the like.



> With movies the bass is o.k.with movies its very weak...


Huh? That’s contradictory...



> not that im a "bass head"i dont want this to sound like my old car audio days of years past,trying to blow off a trunk lid!but it is very weak.the graphs dont show this,but my ears and my eyes dont seem to agree!!!


Trust your ears! Also, you really have to track the Target Curve pretty hard. Above 50 Hz you’re above the Target – way above it.



> Maybe that 55 hz "hump"is part of my problem,however nothing seems to get rid of this.eqing doesnt budge it?


The way it jumped up when you added the mains tells me that they are the culprit, that plus the fact it won’t respond to EQ. I’d be questioning the receiver’s crossover – try doing some mains sweeps full range and with the crossover engaged and see what you get.



> P.s what is considered low bass/mid bass/high bass.i guess the ho would play low/mbm mid/mains high bass,but at what freq?


A five-string bass has a fundamentals ranging from 35 Hz (the lowest note) to about 300 Hz. Typically you’ll find bass parts occupying primarily the 40-200 Hz range. So your MBM is doing most of the low bass, while the mains are handling the mid and up.

However, there is also a factor I’d characterize as “sub-harmonics”, for lack of a better term, a subtle “underpinning” of the lowest bass notes that comes through with some CD recordings, that’s audible with a sub with good extension. With these CDs I can tell a difference between a sub that bottoms out at ~25 Hz and one that digs down to 18 Hz. 

Regards,
Wayne


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Well there is a sad glimpse into my mind!
I meant that movies sound ok,with music the bass is weak.
This doesn't make sense to me as you noted the 50hz and up is already too high?
I currently have the avr crossover set at 80hz.So you think i should run full sweeps with mains only?and play with the crossover freq,to try to smooth out that 55hz hump? 
Im just making sure i understand next course of action.
Thanks As always and btw it looks like youve been pretty busy by the looks of the link posted!!!I like!!
Dean


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Hmm… Sounds like your taste in bass is a bit restrained! I’ve set mine up to sound best with music, and it sounds good with movies, too. It’s expected that the bass will be heavier with them for explosions and stuff, but with the _music_ in the soundtracks, the bass sounds like it does with CDs.

If you’re happy with it the way it is, except for music, you might just use receiver’s sub control to change the level for when you listen to music, or add some kind of remote controller for the subs, like this.



> I currently have the avr crossover set at 80hz.So you think i should run full sweeps with mains only?and play with the crossover freq,to try to smooth out that 55hz hump?
> Im just making sure i understand next course of action.


Yup, do a full range sweep of the mains with the crossover bypassed, then one with it engaged for 80 Hz, or whatever frequency you want to use. Let’s take a look at that before we start fiddling with different crossover frequencies.



> btw it looks like youve been pretty busy by the looks of the link posted!!!I like!!


Thanks! :T Gearing up to do the grille in the next week or two; been consulting with a buddy of mine who’s a carpenter. A wiring guy needs all the help he can get with this woodworking stuff!

Regards,
Wayne


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Ill try to upload a graph over the weekend of just the mains.I think in my avr i set the mains to large to disengage the crossover,otherwise i have to choose a crossover freq.
after you see that i'll try to track the house curve target a little better(maybe this will help me with the 55 hz thing.
Basically im looking to get music sounding more natural,realistic,then i think i can be satisfied with movies.i like deep bass as much as the next guy,i just ,so far havent been able to get my "tweaking"just right.
By the way i ran wires and installed 8 can lights a few weeks ago and hooked them up to 2. 3 way switches.one of which can be controlled by my remote.I must say this electrical business is one of the most confusing things on the planet!!!at least when woodworking you can see whats happening!!with them naked lectrics i cant see which way there going!!!took me about 14 tries to get thee switched working properly!!!

Thanks Again
Dean


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Hey Wayne,Bruce etc...
I plan to do a few measurements maybe tomorrow night.As its pretty difficult for me to get a house quite enough as well as time set aside to get everything hooked up.can you guys tell me exactly what graphs i need to post to get this sorted out?
i know i need mains only,crossover out and then in.
What about mbm only,ho only,mains and ho,mains and mbm etc...smoothed,unsmoothed,fullrange,0-200 etc..
My goal now is to get everything sounding good for 2 channel music listening,i can then,ithink,just boost the lfe channel in the avr if i need more "oomph"during bluray playback?
As i said i need to get all the info i can during one session,as when i disconnect everything it maybe days before i can reconnect/remeasure.I know ill need to make changes remeasure and so forth,just want to get as much as i can can tomorrow night,
Thanks
Dean


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## Bailman (Nov 21, 2006)

Hey Dean!,

C'mon man! I have the same set up. Well sort of. I am waiting for your posted measurements and curious to see what the Elders advise. I have a lousy room, have never been happy with its balance stage wise or its tone, even w/ the MultXT in play.


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## wackii (Jul 13, 2006)

Bailman said:


> Hey Dean!,
> 
> C'mon man! I have the same set up. Well sort of. I am waiting for your posted measurements and curious to see what the Elders advise. I have a lousy room, have never been happy with its balance stage wise or its tone, even w/ the MultXT in play.


Bailman, have you check out the "Target Curve - New Discovery" thread? I've post the target curve there. It's a combination of Spridle's target curve and MultEQ curve. I like how it sounds - clear and not lacking on the bass department for movies or music. I'm no longer need to turn on the volume during some scene and/or turn off the volume during the explosion scene (if you know what I meant).

Al,


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## Bailman (Nov 21, 2006)

Okie Dokie.

:T


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Bailman said:


> Hey Dean!,
> 
> C'mon man! I have the same set up. Well sort of. I am waiting for your posted measurements and curious to see what the Elders advise. I have a lousy room, have never been happy with its balance stage wise or its tone, even w/ the MultXT in play.


Hey bailman,
I did redo everything.wayne was right,the 55 hz "hump was from the mains.i changed the avr crossover from 80 to 100 hz,redid my bfd filters and then tried to track the target curve a little closer.I only had a chance to listen to 1 or 2 cd's afterwards but it sounded considerably better,were watching a movie tonight.ill keep you posted and get the new graphs up later
thanks
Dean


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

here are my latest measurements...
1st mains only set to small,80hz crossover in avr
2nd mains only set to large(crossover bypassed)
3rd mains only set to small 100hz crossover
4th mains only set to large
5th subs only
6th full range 3 filters,100 hz crossover.
7th full rnage 3 filters 100 hz crossover
any thoughts wayne?
Thanks
Dean


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Well, it looks like the 100 Hz crossover took care of the 55 Hz problem. Between that and the sub tracking the house curve better you should be about there, save perhaps for fine-tuning the (combined) subs level in relation to the mains. Hopefully it sounds okay with the crossover that high. If not, and the subs are "bleeding" into the mains, then maybe you could dial down the MBM's crossover a bit (i.e. not the receiver).

Regards,
Wayne


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Hey Wayne,
Well i was getting close,then started over!!
I made a quick call to Pete at Hsu research(there customer support is amazing btw)he suggested that with my square room and me wanting more"impact"that i colocate my subs behind the sofa.
I did this,moved the sofa about 2 feet closer to the rear wall and now i have this...
1st graph is "raw"unequed.2nd and third is with 1 filter(about 25 hz -10db)
I have some work to do,i havent listened enough to see if i like it,i plan on doing this now:jiggy:
I also noticed that strange peaking at 2k-3khz seems to have gone away???
Thanks Dean
p.s. how are those cabinet doors coming?


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