# Pioneer vsx-21txh,Denon 2310ci or Onkyo TX-sr 707



## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Hey gang, these are my 3 choices for an AV receiver 1 of these bad boys will be driving 1 of these 2 set on my list.
Set 1
Fronts SCS-01M
Center SCS-01
Surrounds SBS-01
or 
Fronts STS-01
Center SCS-01
Surrounds SBS-01
The sub for both will be PC12-NSD 
now I know 1 of those will be coming home not sure which yet.so I need a receiver that could work for either one. Now someone has asked the size of the room before so here it is Front & Back W:7'.2" Middle W:6'.1" Length:14' Height:9' the room has hard wood floors and plaster walls. I will be doing some treatments down the road. So for now I need help deciding on which of the 3 Thank You.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I would get either the Pioneer or the Onkyo as they both offer THX Processing and Certification. 
I do like that the Pioneer weighs almost 37 pounds compared to the 24 pounds that the Denon and 27 pounds the Onkyo weighs. Heavier weight usually denotes larger power supply and heat sinks.

I will again give an up to the Onkyo for offering Audyssey and THX Certification. However, the Pioneer and Denon would do nicely as well. Another advantage to the Onkyo is B-Stock availability for under 400 Dollars.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks JJ great advice as always.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Ares, you don't make our job easy, that's for sure. :bigsmile:

These are three excellent choices. Go for your preferred set of features.

Here's my personal take:

The Denon does not have preouts (in case you want to add an external amp in the future).
But it has Audyssey MultEQ XT, which I like (or is it only MultEQ?).
Denon sound, smooth and reserved... good Dacs.
Maybe a better video processor, not so sure though.
Good power reserve.

The Onkyo does have preouts for all channels (or did they remove them this year?).
It has Audyssey MultEQ and the suite (Dynamic EQ & Volume), same as the Denon.
It is THX Select2 Plus certified.
Onkyo sound, clear and articulate... good Dacs.
Good power reserve.

The Pioneer Elite does have Advanced MCACC, which I like also.
It does also have preouts for all its channels.
It is also THX Select2 Plus certified (or is it only Select2, without the Plus?).
Does it have an Ethernet port for streaming music and video?
It weights more than the Denon and Onkyo, which I like.
Best looking one, for me anyway.
Pioneer sound, smooth and pleasing... good Dacs.
Good power reserve.

Mmm... tough choice indeed.
I don't know about their street prices, but if they are all similar, perhaps I'll pick the Pioneer first.
Listen to it at home, if you don't like, just bring it back (or send it back, you got 30 days anyway), and try the Onkyo. Do the same thing, and try the Denon. Pick the one that sounds best to you with your speakers, in your own room, and feels good with the settings, ergonomics, features, remote, and overall feel. :bigsmile: What can I say...

Cheers,
Bob


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I agree with the above from Bob and Jack, I read alot of people complaining about the Pioneer remotes Onkyo has a very well layed out remote But I do think the extra weight of the Pioneer is a good sign. I think in all reality either receiver will do the job very well.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Well what fun would it be if was easy:demon:, now the Pioneer is $700 , 2310ci $849, 707 $799 add Chicago sales tax of 10.25% you guys get the picture. now for remote won't be a problem I'll be using the Harmony 1. The Pioneer is THX select 2 plus, and is sexy looking like my wife(this last part I had to write she was standing behind me). I have done some research and it seems no matter what I pick this room is going to cause me trouble unless I do some treatments.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
You can get the TX-SR706 B-Stock for around 400 Dollars from Accessories4less. There are not very many differences between the two.
Here is the link:http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...-Thx-100w-X-7ch-Theater-Receiver-Black/1.html
Cheers,
JJ


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yup, The 706 is a great option and offers the same features as the 707 without the upper presence channels that are not necessary.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks Jack, I am trying stay local personally I rather not have to deal with shipping it back if doesn't work out that's a big hassle IMO. But thank you for taking the time to find and provide me with the link.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Man how rude of me Hi Tony happy to hear from you again


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ares said:


> Hi Tony happy to hear from you again


Likewise, Glad to see your getting a good system set up:T


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Good for you Ares. I would definitely go by Best Buy/Magnolia to make sure there are no more SC-05's or SC-07's still available. BB is blowing them out and they really are a notch above the VSX-21.
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Thank you, choosing a receiver is harder than I thought, the speakers were easier than this I leaning towards the SVS towers and it seems it will be a done soon.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

When to best buy could not find any at least not in Chicago maybe online no I don't think I want pay shipping + tax


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The towers are a great choice If I was looking for a set they would be at the top of my list.
Online is the way to buy as you save alot of money. Just a little more hassle if it arrives defective but thats also not usually a big deal and does not happen alot.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I such a populated area, I am sure all of the 05/07's were snatched up. Was certainly worth seeing if there were any in your region as the discount was huge.
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

The speakers I don't mind buying online, the receiver I'll stay local.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Ares said:


> Well what fun would it be if was easy:demon:, now the Pioneer is $700 , 2310ci $849, 707 $799 add Chicago sales tax of 10.25% you guys get the picture. now for remote won't be a problem I'll be using the Harmony 1. The Pioneer is THX select 2 plus, and is sexy looking like my wife(this last part I had to write she was standing behind me). I have done some research and it seems no matter what I pick this room is going to cause me trouble unless I do some treatments.


Very true, with a room small as yours, a $200 receiver would have enough volume to fill it.
You don't have another room where you can install your setup?
By the way Ares, are you from the UK? onder:

I know some people over there that have very narrow rooms like yours, and they still manage to put a front projector with full size speakers and generously powerful electronics. 
Anyway, we know your speakers, so give them some piece of kit to be proud of, like the VSX-21TXH Elite receiver. 

You know what Ares, you'll manage, with the help of Advanced MCACC Auto Room EQ, and some judicious room treatments, like acoustic panels for some sound absorption on the side walls, bass traps in some corners, and a carpet for the floor (at least up front). Because your room is small, you don't really need much of these, just has to be put at the right places. And if you and your lovely wife are up to it, you can even make these acoustic panels yourselves. Even the few bass traps (circular tubes), you can also manage to build your own. And as for the carpet, well, you must have one somewhere that can be put to good use, right? Or just grab your neighbour's one, if you don't. :bigsmile:

Hey, life is so simple if you look at it from the right perspective... :unbelievable: :blink: :meal: :newspaper: :island: :hiya: :yawn:  :snoring: :scratchhead: :1eye: :heehee:


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

No born and raised in Chicago can't change rooms this house is 105yrs old so some of the rooms are narrow with some high ceilings the lowest one is this room. this room is an odd shape no 2 measurements are the same.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

its all about compromises we work with what we have and enjoy it.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Ares said:


> No born and raised in Chicago can't change rooms this house is 105yrs old so some of the rooms are narrow with some high ceilings the lowest one is this room. this room is an odd shape no 2 measurements are the same.


Chicago! Home of the Blues, right on! "We're on a mission from God".

* That should at least turn to a positive plus, by having a more balance modal peaks and 'creeks', I mean nulls.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Yeah I guess there are some good things about this room, 1 ? if a receiver can't drive 4ohm speakers is that a negative if you are using 8ohm speakers.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Ares said:


> Yeah I guess there are some good things about this room, 1 ? if a receiver can't drive 4ohm speakers is that a negative if you are using 8ohm speakers.


No, on the contrary, its a positive. :bigsmile:

Anyway, these three receivers are perfectly fine with your actual speakers.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Bare with me how is that a positive?


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Ares said:


> Bare with me how is that a positive?


Because my dear Ares, if a receiver cannot drive 4-ohm loads, it certainly can drive 8-ohm loads, which is a much more easy load for any receiver on the market. 

4 ohms is harder to drive for a receiver, but the receiver will still drive them, if you don't turn the volume level too loud, and if only your two front mains are from this ditto load. And besides, that 4 ohms would only drop at certain frequencies, not over the full audio range.

Most mass-market speakers are rated at a nominal 8 ohms, with a minimum of 6, or sometimes 4 ohms.
Very few speakers (electrostatic ones for example) would have a rated nominal 4 ohms, with a minimum 2 ohms. These are generally for the high end market, where powerful separate amplifiers are required. 

If you want to find more about these impedance loads in relation to speakers vs power amplifiers, integrated amplifiers and A/V receivers, check some good articles from various audio forum sites. They are all over, just Google 'Speaker's Impedances'. Or, 'High Current Amplifiers'.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Buy your receiver online. That one piece of advice I can't let slide past. I've never seen a reasonable price on any in store receiver. I've also never had any issues with receivers being shipped. A4less is a very reliable sales place I've never had any issues with them. 

I'd suggest you get the Denon. They are reliable and have very short owners threads. Onkyo threads tend to be novels and Pioneer has skimped their amp sections in recent years. Just make sure you toss the manual in the trash and look up a man named Adam at audioholics. He's got manuals memorized and is a very helpful person.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Thank you for the explanation. So now my search is over I will go with the Pioneer and later do some treatments to the room. I would like thank Bob,Tony,and last but not least Jack for your patience and knowledge in making this journey a lot easier. This is for anyone who comes across this post if you have the opportunity to talk to these guys listen to what they have to say, it will make your HT journey easier. Gentleman may you enjoy prosperity,happiness and good health all the days of your life.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Ares said:


> Thank you for the explanation. So now my search is over I will go with the Pioneer and later do some treatments to the room. I would like thank Bob,Tony,and last but not least Jack for your patience and knowledge in making this journey a lot easier. This is for anyone who comes across this post if you have the opportunity to talk to these guys listen to what they have to say, it will make your HT journey easier. Gentleman may you enjoy prosperity,happiness and good health all the days of your life.


Not so fast buddy. We demand pictures and your thoughts. If you want to do easy treatments head over to ata acoustics.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Hold on, I will be like a proud father and take lots of pictures and give my thoughts on all this. Thanks for the info Isiberian.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

lsiberian said:


> Buy your receiver online. That one piece of advice I can't let slide past. I've never seen a reasonable price on any in store receiver. I've also never had any issues with receivers being shipped. A4less is a very reliable sales place I've never had any issues with them.
> 
> I'd suggest you get the Denon. They are reliable and have very short owners threads. Onkyo threads tend to be novels and Pioneer has skimped their amp sections in recent years. Just make sure you toss the manual in the trash and look up a man named Adam at audioholics. He's got manuals memorized and is a very helpful person.


Ares already mentioned that he's not into buying online, did you just read this very short thread?

Also, it is funny that you recommend Denon, and then mentioned Adam at Audioholics!
Because Adam is using the Pioneer Elite VSX-23TXH in his setup, and is very happy with it.

Also, you cannot judge a brand according to their novelty on some threads, can you really?

Finally, you mentioned Pioneer that have skip in their amp sections in recent years, but we are talking here about the Elite model, which is not in this situation. 

And just one more, 'reliability'. I had Pioneer, Denon, Onkyo... since the 70's, and I can tell you that they are more or less reliable, depending on your use and maintenance. But they are all certainly reliable.
I had Denon units that brake down on me in the past. I have a Pioneer receiver since 1987, and still performing like if it was brand new. And I can say without a doubt, that when a component fails, it is not necessary a reliability problem. Many factors are in motion here. 
The real truth is that nobody's perfect, they all have their pluses and minuses. The trick is to balance value, build, features, performance, and last but not least ergonomics.
I love my Denon AVR-3805, but I hate Denon manuals, remote controls, and inintuitive and complex menu setups. And that is a fact.
The funny thing is that you said similar things about the too much complexities in Denon receivers in the past, in particular referring to their Auto Room Correction setup: Audyssey MultEQ XT, no?
You like more the simplicity of EZ-Set from Harman Kardon receivers, no?
And here you go now recommending Denon!!! Are you for real?
Sorry man, but I just have to get the truth out here, for the benefit of Ares's (our OP) knowledge.

I'm not saying that the Denon AVR-2310CI is bad, because it is not, but you got to make a real honest distinction here, and according to the OP's preference.

And a lot of people are extremely happy with the Onkyo TX-SR707 as well. Hey, I own two Onkyo receivers myself.

Now, the Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH, that one is a gorgeous looking receiver with strong build quality, and lots of very cool features, plus a great Auto Room correction, the Advanced MCACC that you can even fine tune manually, and with a Phase Control too. I just wish I can do that with my Onkyo receivers.
As much I love Audyssey MultEQ XT, I'm beginning to appreciate more and more the better sounding MCACC system with its much better versatility. The more I read about it, the more I love it.

So, Congratulations Ares with your excellent choice; you and your wife will absolutely love it. :T

Cheers,
Bob


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Thank you Bob after all this my mind is made up and I won't change it like you said there are pro & cons to every receiver and this one suites me just fine. Looked at Denon and I don't like the fact that I need to go look at some forum just to understand the manual. I have nothing negative Onkyo but it shares the same Audyssey and if it's headache on one why wouldn't it be on the other. Now I am not saying these are bad receivers just bad for me right now maybe later on with more experience under my belt the I deal with them.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Like I already said Ares, you did make the right choice, and I know so.

* And as a great bonus, it just happened to be the best value out of the three; you save $100 over the Onkyo, and an even better difference over the always overpriced Denon receivers, $150.

But Ares, if you can, and you should, show your local dealer the online price of that Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH receiver, and ask him to match it.
He should be able to offer you a similar deal, or an extended warranty. 
No loss asking, and you are the one to benefit from it.

Good Luck bud.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I'll give it a try and see what happens thanks again Bob.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Hey, that was just a last minute great thought before you purchase it, it's worth a try. 

* And Ares, keep us posted, we love to know people's reaction when they get their new toys. :bigsmile:


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Not a problem it may be a while I plan on picking this up after I get my tax refund,the wife robs me blind all year so I get my toys with my tax refund check.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Or perhaps a Christmas present from your wife, to compensate. :bigsmile:


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

She's nice not that nice though.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Lol, that was just a simple and fair suggestion. :bigsmile:


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

True but what is that old saying If mama aint happy nobody's happy.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Does not do any good in my house though. :bigsmile:


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Most wives would be upset if their husbands spent as much time on the net as I do or when they tell there wives Honey I'm going to drop 3k on speakers and a receiver not mine she said one word Cool. Plus I have my own man cave in progress so she is not to bad.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Well, that's mostly the reason that my wife and I, live in separate houses. :bigsmile:

* That way, we don't fight anymore, and when we go out or visit each other, it is much more relaxing.
And we have complete freedom over our own lifes. And the kids have more choices too. :bigsmile:


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

LOL that's my dream.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Hey, my wife and I, have a long discussion over that and for quite some time. And finally we both just wake up and did it, all for the better. We could not have been much happier. And the kids found it so cool, they too are much happier. What can I say.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

My wife and I have a great relationship all kidding aside.She doesn't have a problem with any hobbies that I do as long as other women isn't one of my hobbies.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Lol, good one. But see, that's the thing with my wife and I, we both love to see other people too. :bigsmile:

* Doesn't mean we don't love each other anymore, just the opposite, we have more respect now, and more friends too.

))) Some people like sharing their freedom with each other, others like to live it by themselves.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

That's cool, if it works it works.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Oh it works, as long you keep it that way. :bigsmile:


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

It wouldn't work here my wife and I how do I to say this we don't share our toy's.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Are you starting to diverge from the subject at hand now? :bigsmile:


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Sorry I don't understand.


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Sorry Ares, I was just kidding, we are both so much off topic by now, that I was just trying to loose you a bit, lol. 

So, because I want to visit some other parts of the world, I'll leave you with this for now, fftopic2:

But we shall be back eventually to share our impressions from these three receivers, without interference from our wives. How's that sounds to you Ares?


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Sounds like a plan and until then enjoy yourself and live life to the fullest


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## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Thanks, and same to you...


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