# Looking for affordable seperate amp(s)



## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

My recently redesigned Monkey Coffins are power hungry (~86dB/1W, 8ohm) and want more juice than my aging Denon AVR-685 (75W @ 8ohm) can provide. I don't want to break the bank and I've been thinking about getting a new AVR soon also, but I figure a high power seperate amp couldn't hurt.

My ideas I've considered so far are


Behringer A500 ($200) - 2x 125W @ 8ohm - seems tried and true and at a good price
Dayton APA150 ($158/ea) - bridgeable to 150W @ 8ohm - specs look nice and LPF could be useful for later repurposing

Any other ideas or comments on those options?


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## SAC (Dec 3, 2009)

If you want future proof design, I might suggest that you consider either a Crown XLS  Drivecore series or (depending upon your anticipated future needs, the additional functionality of an XTi.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

I was kinda ignoring PA amps because I don't want to deal with the noise and I kinda wanted something with a sleek look that will look nice sitting out on it's own. If there's a good enough deal though I could probably stand a fan mod and be happy. Also don't _need_ that much power, I'm thinking the 120-200W range @ 8ohm would suffice.


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## SAC (Dec 3, 2009)

They will easily outperform the models you cited.

And if you can drive them hard enough to even get their fan to come on, let me know. My guess is that you will be more concerned that their fan doesn't work, as you application will not even make them break a sweat!

And the amount of power is like saying how fast a car goes. You seldom need the maximum velocity to go to the grocery store. Think of it as a bonus - as you do not mention the possible impedance you might drive in the future.

You should do a bit more research and update your preconceptions.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

I don't have any preconceptions against PA gear and I don't need 300W @ 8ohms per channel. Feel free to provide a useful suggestion in the similar price range as what I've already considered.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

This might be a good choice with a little more flexability built in.....http://www.123dj.com/amps/crown/xls1000.html


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## SAC (Dec 3, 2009)

fusseli said:


> I was kinda ignoring PA amps because
> 
> *I don't want to deal with the noise* and
> 
> ...


Look, I am not looking for a fight, and I am sorry I tried to help.

But as far as your not having "any preconceptions against PA gear", your post is loaded with nothing BUT!

Their noise figures will cream your alternatives, especially as Crown specs are guaranteed worst case MINIMUMS at FULL operating power at extreme impedance loads!

...And I doubt you can present a load with the unit close packed with no ventilation that would even make the cooling fan budge!

...And you might want to investigate what the power rating really means. I would be fascinated to see how you evaluate automobiles!

The irony is that Crown amps power far more studios and commercial facilities with far more critical needs than you present.

But as you have "no preconceptions" about "PA gear", I wish you luck.


Oh, and tcarcio, watch your step!:nono:


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

The Crown XLS certainly have some nice goodies built in, but they are kinda more than I was thinking of spending. I'm thinking more of the $200-$250 range. Flexibility for lower impedance could be useful but isn't a real priority for my inteded use as of now.

The Behringer EPQ900 looks about right, no-frills and good power range at $200. I'm still not convinced I want to stare at an ugly PA amp everyday though 





SAC said:


> Look, I am not looking for a fight, and I am sorry I tried to help.
> 
> But as far as your not having "any preconceptions against PA gear", your post is loaded with nothing BUT!
> 
> ...


I was referring to fan noise LOL. Go take a dump on someone else's thread, you're obviously looking for a debate with someone you assume to have little knowledge :rolleyesno: Keep your suggestions to yourself.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2011)

Would something like this work? http://emotiva.com/upa2.shtm

You mentioned you were getting a newer AVR. Are you going for surround or stereo? Are you going to be using a sub?

I know you said no PA amps, but I run a crown myself and it sounds great and it was a cheaper solution(at the time of a crazy sale). You might want to reconsider, at least look at them. I said the exact same thing as well. I don't need 300 watts of power, but it really isn't that much more. Double power is only 3db more and it isn't really about using all the power as much as it is having more headroom. A nice cool amp that isn't even being pushed will never clip or get hot.

The Emo should give you more real power then a integrated receiver. Those Daytons have gone up in price a lot. I'd choose the Emo over two of those for sure and its currently cheaper.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

fusseli said:


> The Crown XLS certainly have some nice goodies built in, but they are kinda more than I was thinking of spending. I'm thinking more of the $200-$250 range. Flexibility for lower impedance could be useful but isn't a real priority for my inteded use as of now.QUOTE]
> 
> Well if you change your mind that same site has the XLS402 for $249 shipped. Good luck with whatever you end up with.:wave:


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## SAC (Dec 3, 2009)

As was stated, the fans make no noise if they do not come on, and they only come on in a severely stressed condition, which you repeated say you won't present!

My bet is that you can't make them come on!

Bottomline, they outperform your suggestions in EVERY noise category and the price of $299, only $49 of one of your own suggestions, was well within the range that you first suggested.

Do as you like, but I would also suggest that you stare at the video screen and not at the amps.

Funny, there are additional posters suggesting the same amps! 

But the real issue seems to be that you are only looking for validation for your foregone conclusion as you dismiss any other solicited suggestions that disagree with your own SUBSTANTIAL preconceived notions.

I don't care what you do, and you are entitled to your own preconceived opinions (as are we!). But don't confuse them with the objective _facts_ concerning the units, which many folks here use.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

Ya, I've eyed emos for a long time actually. I had decided it was too spendy though so I had moved on. Not a bad deal at $300, for that much I'd rather have it than the PA options.

I've seen FS threads for those Daytons at $75, if there were a couple out there now I'd take them haha.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

SAC said:


> As was stated, the fans make no noise if they do not come on, and they only come on in a severely stressed condition, which you repeated say you won't present!
> 
> My bet is that you can't make them come on!
> 
> ...


I've been around a PV900 in a party rig that's a jet turbine the moment it turns on, and only gets louder once it's been running hard for a while. The old CS800 below it does the same thing, given that's OLD.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

SAC said:


> As was stated, the fans make no noise if they do not come on, and they only come on in a severely stressed condition


Are you 100% sure? I might pick one up...


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

Generic said:


> Would something like this work? http://emotiva.com/upa2.shtm
> 
> You mentioned you were getting a newer AVR. Are you going for surround or stereo? Are you going to be using a sub?
> 
> ...


My mains are full range (f3 of 36Hz, f10 of 22Hz) for 2ch music, which is often. I have a sub but it's duties are saved of the .1 channel of LFE.

Right now the only two things tempting me are the UPA-2 and the A500. Pro gear isn't doing it for me unless I wanted to feed crazy power to a monster sub.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Strange Behringer doesnt list specs like transformer size, secondary capacitance or the number of output devices on their web site (at least not that I saw on the A500's page). Perhaps those specifics are really inconsequential when comparing two amps of the same wattage.

I also noticed the Crown can be bridged, Behringer doesnt say and I know the UPA-2 can not. Might not mean much now but might come in handy later.

FWIW Im very impressed with both my xpa-5 and upa-2, tho theyre my first-ever amps and Im pretty green when it comes to amps.


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## SAC (Dec 3, 2009)

I am often fascinated by discussions that refer to the 'amount of amplifier power needed' and how folks commonly determine what they _feel _is appropriate.

Unfortunately the manner in which MOST equate speaker power and amplifier power is *utterly incorrect!*

Too often it is akin to someone choosing a car based upon its top speed compared to the speed limits posted on the highway! And having dutifully chosen that car based upon misleading units, they then wonder why they can't pull a boat. And in our case, LFs and subwoofers are boats. Rather large boats. But its rather interesting that topics such as crest factors and duty cycle are never discussed - or even mentioned. 

Instead the discussions remain in the arena similar to the discussion of light bulbs, where folks often use wattage ratings, indicative only of how much current is transformed into HEAT, when they are referring to light output - properly measured not in watts, but in candle power or lumens. Note also, that speakers, amps, light bulbs, and space heaters are also commonly rated in terms of watts, with more than a few thinking that this rating, at least in the case of speakers, amps and stereos, thinking that this has something to do with output loudness!:rofl:

And doesn't it? I can say with certainty that my 100 w bulb certainly sounds louder than that 40w bulb!

Well, not exactly. But those ratings are *great *if you want to compare the heat output of your toaster or space heater or light bulb with that of your speaker just before it enters a destructive mode of operation!:gulp:

Oh, but that is NOT what you were really interested in? Hmmm....

So, we could spend days parodying the commonly held, but utterly incorrect, beliefs about audio 'power' ratings. 

And now more than a few should be wondering, "Then what exactly DO those ratings mean? And if they are not appropriate, what is?"

...And why can't my Yugo, rated with a top speed of just over 90 miles an hour, plenty fast to accommodate most highways in the country, tow my 26 foot long Boston Whaler through the Rockies? 



Here are a couple of papers that attempt to explain some of this.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

TypeA said:


> Strange Behringer doesnt list specs like transformer size, secondary capacitance or the number of output devices on their web site (at least not that I saw on the A500's page). Perhaps those specifics are really inconsequential when comparing two amps of the same wattage.
> 
> I also noticed the Crown can be bridged, Behringer doesnt say and I know the UPA-2 can not. Might not mean much now but might come in handy later.
> 
> FWIW Im very impressed with both my xpa-5 and upa-2, tho theyre my first-ever amps and Im pretty green when it comes to amps.


Ya I'd think that the fewer MOSFETs are already internally bridged, the lower impedance the amp can drive and would be apt to have it's channels bridged. Amps that can't bridge channels are likely to be because its already maxing out the current carrying capability of the MOSFETs making up each channel.

The A500 is bridgeable, yes.





SAC said:


> I am often fascinated by discussions that refer to the 'amount of amplifier power needed' and how folks commonly determine what they _feel _is appropriate.
> 
> Unfortunately the manner in which MOST equate speaker power and amplifier power is *utterly incorrect!*
> 
> ...


You don't realize who you're talking to here :sarcastic: I'm glad you can get your rant off though, sounds like you needed it. I've asked you to go away until you can aid the discussion at hand yet you are still here.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

The Crown XLS-402 does look good for $250, even the XLS202 would probably do. The off/15Hz/30Hz HPF could be quite handy, no other frills. Listings look conflicted though... DOn't see mention of an HPF in the user manual. These must be older models though, I can't seem to find them hardly anywhere.

Anyone know of any of the newer Class D amps in the ~$200 range?


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2011)

Just be aware that the Crown XLS 402 fan is always running. Not a problem for me, but they can be modded to run slower, or just unhook them. When music is playing, they are not heard.


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## SAC (Dec 3, 2009)

The _current model_ XLS Drivecore 1000, etc., features a temperature controlled variable fan designed to be off at normal operating temperatures.

It is a low velocity fan, so even when on any noise is low. 

Here is one persons view, and also a http://www.crownaudio.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=3990&view=findpost&p=14810.

Per internal contacts, data should be able to be gathered re: noise specs.

Or one could simply go down to a local MI store and listen.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

The newer XLS 1000 is definitely tempting but it's more amp than I really need right now. We'll see how things pan out, bidding on the XLS 202 on ebay right now.


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm going to have to second the emotiva on looks alone (you've cited that as a consideration). In your shoes I'd also be tempted to hit Craigslist for a used NAD or ADCOM to cut the costs further; but the deal on the UPA-2 just seems excellent right now.


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

From past experience with pro amps I have always heard the fan running unless it was the crown k1/k2.

You also have to make sure it has a soft start or you are going to get that large thump that will make you think you just blow up your speakers. 

Not to knock it but their are some nice pro. Amps out their but you need to check which model. Try watching a suspense thriller with the fan sound in the back ground. Unless of course you are locating it in another room/floor.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

magic said:


> From past experience with pro amps I have always heard the fan running unless it was the crown k1/k2.
> 
> You also have to make sure it has a soft start or you are going to get that large thump that will make you think you just blow up your speakers.
> 
> Not to knock it but their are some nice pro. Amps out their but you need to check which model. Try watching a suspense thriller with the fan sound in the back ground. Unless of course you are locating it in another room/floor.


Very true, thanks for mentioning Mute during power up. Important for an HT purposed PA amp.

The UPA-2 and the A500 are both tempting, they are both passively cooled but they are both roasty hot Class AB. Makes me wonder about the cooler running Class D pro amps (XLS1000 or EPQ1200/EPQ2000) and how much the fan would run.

In other words, much more power but with a fan. I don't think I'm honestly considering any of the Class AB pro amps for that reason. Why bother when it could be a newer (and much lighter) Class D or a stylish and passive Class AB?

Sidenote, I lost the auction on the XLS202.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

fusseli said:


> Sidenote, I lost the auction on the XLS202.


That's not part of the drivecore series. I suspect it has fan noise issues.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

GranteedEV said:


> That's not part of the drivecore series. I suspect it has fan noise issues.


Ya I know, it was older model Class AB. I was bidding because it was NIB for really cheap.


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

The UPA2 can be stacked I have upa1 and they are cool to the touch when i run them. 

I would give them a call to verify on the upa2 to be sure.


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

The yamaha p-series (which I use) does mute on startup and is inaudiable during listening.

There are a lot of amps, both pro and retail, I have not played with.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

Yamaha amps look like they are $$.

I'm kinda liking the looks of the Behringer NU1000 right now, other than the fact that it's ugly  Class D, and comes with or without DSP for $200/$300. This looks to be good value, the DSP looks fairly capable with 8 PEQ bands and steep filters. There also appears to be shelving filters and a 2-way mode, making it a very friendly looking amp for active DIY designs. Dynamic EQ appears to be what some high-end subs use to tout their deep extension at low SPL and remain stable at high SPL. Also includes delay stage and adjustable peak limiter. The software is here: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU1000DSP.aspx

As a side note, I wasn't thrilled to see that the lowest HPF setting for the appears to be XLS1000 50Hz? It's adjustable Xover is pretty much worthless for near-fullrange mains and/or ported sub use.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

An Emotiva UPA-2 for $300 delivered would seem to be the best value for something with decent performance.

If you need more power I suppose the Crown XLS 1000 for $300 delivered from Amazon would do.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

Well I just won a used A500 on ebay for $110 shipped. That's a great deal, considering it's $200-$250 retail, so I hope it wasn't abused. It will take the load off my AVR and should be a nice upgrade as well. It's not big on power or extra features but for the price it's perfect for what I need right now.

In the future I will look into the newer Class D pro amps with DSPs that have been discussed here for my next DIY sub build.


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