# Dolby Prologic IIz (9.2 channel) Waste or want?



## memarcus

I will be buying a new integrated amp in the coming months and was wondering what's the general consensus on the 9.2 audio? I've read several articles saying it's lame but as more material is encoded with it will it get stronger?

I have 7.1 setup now and through my selections assumed its the newer thing, therefore, "I need it." I was looking at the Onkyo NR-5007 becasue it will meet my power needs and seems to be a great amp. But if the IIz is really not that great there are many other cheaper options than those with IIz decoding.

What's the:huh: consensus on Pro Logic IIz? Is it a waste?


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## Mike P.

"underwhelming results" is what is stated on the review I read.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10230238-1.html


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## memarcus

That's what I read too. I was just wondering if anybody felt differently.

also I meant to put in my original post.....

How is it that you can have 9 channel audio with a 7 channel amp? I see lots of receivers out there that decode IIz but only have 7 channels. do you assign the rears to the height channels as a tradeoff or have outputs for the height channels to an external stereo amp?


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## Moonfly

They add height speakers, but then say the system only processes non directional sounds. Thats a bit confusing and contradicting IMO, not to mention there is plenty of talk on the web of the human ear not being able to tell all that much difference in the height of sounds anyway. The whole height thing is a bit lost on me, if you have the right kit for your room then it will fill your room with sound anyway and I'm not convinced this makes a difference. Certainly an 8.1 system I heard recently utilising the extra height speakers didnt give any noticeable extra sensation over even my 5.1 that I could tell.


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## Mike P.

The Onkyo's have speaker connections for the front height speakers.

http://filedepot.onkyousa.com/Files...essionid=f030563069b03b0dfd792f6e2c272f427245


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## Moonfly

Mike P. said:


> The Onkyo's have speaker connections for the front height speakers.
> 
> http://filedepot.onkyousa.com/Files...essionid=f030563069b03b0dfd792f6e2c272f427245


The system I listened too was running from one of these Onkyos.


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## sub_crazy

Some people really like the added height or width speakers but most of the professional reviews I have read said it was just OK with some material and worse with others.

I used to think the same thing about 7.1 and the back surrounds until I heard Pro-logic IIx with music, now I think back surrounds are worth it just for PL IIx. 

I personally don't have any desire to add height or width channels though as it would be difficult to integrate into my system and the reviews have been so so.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
The biggest thing I like is dual separate Audyssey calibrations of the Subwoofer Channel. With many people using 5.1 or 5.2 based systems, having dual Subwoofer calibrations really can be a boon.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Moonfly

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> The biggest thing I like is dual separate Audyssey calibrations of the Subwoofer Channel. With many people using 5.1 or 5.2 based systems, having dual Subwoofer calibrations really can be a boon.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Thats much more use than 2 height channels imo!


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## tonyvdb

I personally think its a "hit and miss" option. It depends on how far away you sit from the front wall and how high the speakers are placed.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Unless I completely switch out my Speakers, I really do not see how I could practically implement Front Height Channels. I have been seriously considering adding another Depth Subwoofer and love the idea of having dual subwoofer calibrations.
Cheers,
JJ


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## bbecker83

IIz is a pot shot. Sometimes it works good sometimes it doesn't IMO DSX does a far better job.


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## vann_d

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Unless I completely switch out my Speakers, I really do not see how I could practically implement Front Height Channels. I have been seriously considering adding another Depth Subwoofer and love the idea of having dual subwoofer calibrations.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Everything I've read says multiple subwoofers should be calibrated simultaneously, not independently. What is the concept behind the dual subwoofer calibration?


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## hddummy

memarcus said:


> How is it that you can have 9 channel audio with a 7 channel amp? I see lots of receivers out there that decode IIz but only have 7 channels. do you assign the rears to the height channels as a tradeoff or have outputs for the height channels to an external stereo amp?


All the other AVRs out there that decode IIz have 7 powered channels and can only process 7 channels. In other words, you have to sacrifice the use of your rear surrounds to be able to use your height or width channels. You can't even use an extra stereo amp to get 9 channels simultaneously. The Onkyo 1007/8, 3007/8, 5007/8 are the only AVRs I've seen to date that can process and power 9 simultaneous channels. I personally am considering a full 9.2 height system with either the 3008 or 5008. I'll probably test it out with some speakers I have sitting around before I go and buy a pair for the height channels though. I figure there's not really much to lose by having it and if it adds some cool ambient effects then all the better.


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## vann_d

hddummy said:


> All the other AVRs out there that decode IIz have 7 powered channels and can only process 7 channels. In other words, you have to sacrifice the use of your rear surrounds to be able to use your height or width channels. You can't even use an extra stereo amp to get 9 channels simultaneously. The Onkyo 1007/8, 3007/8, 5007/8 are the only AVRs I've seen to date that can process and power 9 simultaneous channels. I personally am considering a full 9.2 height system with either the 3008 or 5008. I'll probably test it out with some speakers I have sitting around before I go and buy a pair for the height channels though. I figure there's not really much to lose by having it and if it adds some cool ambient effects then all the better.


This receiver from Yamaha allows 11.2 output with the use of external amplification :T

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/rx-a3000


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## Jungle Jack

vann_d said:


> Everything I've read says multiple subwoofers should be calibrated simultaneously, not independently. What is the concept behind the dual subwoofer calibration?


Hello,
If using dual subwoofers, having the ability to perform Audyssey on each is a good thing as most dual sub installations are not in the same location. By having each subwoofer calibrated individually, they are maximized for their physical location.

It has only been in the past few years that the ability to have dual sub calibration has been even possible. I cannot think of a disadvantage provided it is an EQ Designed to calibrate dual subs.
Cheers,
JJ


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## vann_d

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> If using dual subwoofers, having the ability to perform Audyssey on each is a good thing as most dual sub installations are not in the same location. By having each subwoofer calibrated individually, they are maximized for their physical location.
> 
> It has only been in the past few years that the ability to have dual sub calibration has been even possible. I cannot think of a disadvantage provided it is an EQ Designed to calibrate dual subs.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Perhaps it is my unfamiliarity with the process that is keeping me from following.

With a more traditional method such as using REW and a peq, it would be a mistake to calibrate dual subs independently. The summed response would not be as desired.


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## sub_crazy

As far as Audyssey's new SubEQ it does not EQ the subs separately, it only adjusts the phase and polarity of the 2 subs separately then EQ's them as a whole which is the correct way to do it for any set-up. The standalone SVS and Audyssey SubEQ's do the same thing.


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## Theresa

You would be hard pressed to find many BD movies with even 7.1. I have not even implemented 7.1 and sticking with 5.1 because of this. IIx is more than whats needed. Perhaps someday I will put up two back speakers but not yet and certainly not 11.1. I think its just marketing in order to sell new receivers without any interest in what is useful.


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## SinCron

There are games that use this system. I can well imagine it would be great to add a third dimension to the gaming experience when it comes to sound.


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## oledurt

I just purchased a denon 4311ci it has PL IIz and Audyssey DSX. I don't have enough space for wides but I do have enough for heights. I had some extra surround speakers so I put them up above my screen. Bottom-line I was not impressed...I did not stop there. I decided to spend some time working on placing them correctly. Long story short after spending half the day measuring and mounting them I absolutely love the affect! It was not just a minor placebo effect. It was stunning! Here are some essential keys to correct placement. First off they need to be straight above or slightly outside your front speakers. Secondly they need to be high on the wall. When I first placed mine they where too low. I then re mounted them so that they are about 5 feet above my mains and about 9 inches down from my ceiling. This made a night and day difference. Finally I found I prefer Audyssey DSX over Pl IIz. Bottom line is placement matters don't expect to throw some speakers on a shelf any old way and get spectacular effects. Don't believe the hype! I am running 9.2 and not going back!


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## bambino

Theresa said:


> You would be hard pressed to find many BD movies with even 7.1. I have not even implemented 7.1 and sticking with 5.1 because of this. IIx is more than whats needed. Perhaps someday I will put up two back speakers but not yet and certainly not 11.1. I think its just marketing in order to sell new receivers without any interest in what is useful.


There are actually quite a few movies that are 7.1.:T


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## bambino

With me it is more of a want thing then a need, currently in my front room the 5.1 is amazing and satisfying. When i do the back room this spring it is gonna be 9.2 or 11.2, i know it isn't needed but thats what i want so i shall have it place i have a ton of extra power amps begging for some use.:T


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## Jungle Jack

bambino said:


> With me it is more of a want thing then a need, currently in my front room the 5.1 is amazing and satisfying. When i do the back room this spring it is gonna be 9.2 or 11.2, i know it isn't needed but thats what i want so i shall have it place i have a ton of extra power amps begging for some use.:T


Hello,
I truly know the feeling and am contemplating adding a pair of MartinLogans new 2000 Dollar ESL's for the Back Surrounds and the smaller Monitor sized Speaker from this line for DSX in either a Height or Width application.

The new Xstat based 2000 Dollar ML's (EM-ESL) have really got me excited as it will give folks the opportunity to have a true ESL Speaker for under 2 Grand which is quite a bit larger in Panel size than the prior ESL's in the Design Series which were also using the previous generation Gen 2 Panel. Here is a Link for the ESL Model: http://www.martinlogan.com/electromotion/index.php
Cheers,
JJ


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## bambino

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I truly know the feeling and am contemplating adding a pair of MartinLogans new 2000 Dollar ESL's for the Back Surrounds and the smaller Monitor sized Speaker from this line for DSX in either a Height or Width application.
> 
> The new Xstat based 2000 Dollar ML's (EM-ESL) have really got me excited as it will give folks the opportunity to have a true ESL Speaker for under 2 Grand which is quite a bit larger in Panel size than the prior ESL's in the Design Series which were also using the previous generation Gen 2 Panel. Here is a Link for the ESL Model: http://www.martinlogan.com/electromotion/index.php
> Cheers,
> JJ


I was taking a gander at ML's awhile back but was having trouble decideing which other speakers in that brand would all match for a nice surround system, it appears they have something really nice on there hands and the sensitivity rating is impressive as well.:sn:

In the Audio Advisor they had a set of ML's on sale that i allmost dove into but after further reading and a call to them it seems they are a self powerd speaker that can even be used off just an I-pod. I don't recall the model #.


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## sub_crazy

bambino said:


> With me it is more of a want thing then a need, currently in my front room the 5.1 is amazing and satisfying. When i do the back room this spring it is gonna be 9.2 or 11.2, i know it isn't needed but thats what i want so i shall have it place i have a ton of extra power amps begging for some use.:T


I got a chance to try out the DSX wides and thought it did make a difference in that it really bridged the gap between the mains and the surrounds. I only did it as a test as I don't have a dedicated room but I liked the results. 

I would definitely do 9.2 or 11.2 like your going to do if I had a dedicated room.


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## bambino

One thing with doing a setup that large is i think the room needs to be large to handle all of the speakers and locate them properly, i'm probly running borderline on the small side as my room is only 14ft. X 20ft. but after some planning and careful placement i think it will work out pretty swell.:T Oh, and Audessey, which i do not use on my front room setup should make things easier to set.


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## Jeff Aguilar

I am running the Onkyo 1007 in 9.2. 

When I first set it up I was using some very inexpensive Yamaha speakers for my height speakers. I was able to temp mount them above and just outside of my mains near the ceiling. I could definetely tell a difference when watching movies. I did not want to spend a bunch of money on speakers just to discover that I could not tell a difference. I did, so I went ahead and installed some really nice inwall di-pole KEF speakers. I was also able to install those above and just outside of my main speakers close to the ceiling. What a difference a good speaker made there! I love the way my movies sound in our room! I do not think I want to go back to just the 7.1 sound.

I also really like having the ability to setup my two SVS 16-46 pc+ speakers. They have never sounded this good before! And that is saying something.

I think that if you have the room and can set up a 9.1 system, go for it and see if you like it. I found that in my room with my setup it is awesome. By the way, my room would not support a front width setup, so I did not even try that. 

Jeff


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## bambino

Glad to hear another happy consumers view.:T How big is your room? Also was the setup tedious or did the room correction of Audessy help with all that fun stuff?


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## Jeff Aguilar

Bambino,

I have a dedicated room, it is 14x18. The french doors are on the wall of 14' wall and the other 14' wall has my equipment shelf and dvd shelf. I took some pictures before I put in my front height in-wall speakers.

  tershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=6321]







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As far as room correction software, yes, it made quite a difference. I have a bunch of glass shelves that reflect sound in my room and my placement of speakers (rear and rear centers) isn't the best. 

Jeff Aguilar


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## bambino

Your pics aren't showing up:dontknow:. But i am glad to hear that the room correction helped with the setup, without i would imagine setup being a daunting task.:T


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## Jeff Aguilar

Just getting them up correctly.

Jeff


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## harckan

Thank's for all posts, this is very important for me.

Regard


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## rlc51

My take on Dolby prologic IIz.
If your looking for a huge new sound you won't find it with the new prolocic IIz. I have used monopole direct firing speakers up there and well ok it added something but very little. Then I used some very good bipolar speakers up there and that was much better. You must remember the NON-Directional sound of the height speakers and using a more diffused ambient sound was a better fit. NO I still did not hear those jets over top my head. What I did hear was , as some have said, a must taller front sound stage and using the much better bipole
up there really opened up the stage, as if I was in a huge listening hall ( this I like) the regular front speakers still offered up that directional sound needed at times when the action moves right off the left side or right side.
So I do like the new setup. It's just that the wording of height speakers leads us to believe that pin point sound of jets will fly over you in a 3 dimensional space, NO they won't, BUT close your eyes and think BIG Auditorium instead. Please remember to use good speakers up there and not just any old thing you had around from an old system. Most of the time you won't hear a thing because most of the audio is in that center speaker but just wait until the movie opens up to a full scale scene with a lot of actions or sounds. Remember your ahead of the curve on this. Nothing coming out of Hollywood is being produced with Prologic IIz in mind, unless it's a Dolby Demo disk. Who knows what will the future bring or when. For now you will just open up the front sound stage.


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## MikeBiker

I'm happy with just a 5.1 setup. I see little advantage to me in going to 7 or 9 speakers. If cost were not object, and someone else did the installation, then I would get 9.2 because there is no downside then.


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## rlc51

MikeBiker said:


> I'm happy with just a 5.1 setup. I see little advantage to me in going to 7 or 9 speakers. If cost were not object, and someone else did the installation, then I would get 9.2 because there is no downside then.


I am glad you like your 5.1 and your completely right, I think everyone would take a free 9.2 with all the trimming and new speakers with free installation if they were offered this. I waited a long time but ALAS nobody called to give me all this so I had to pay for it myself, but this does not change the fact that I do like this setup.

to each his own.


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## sub_crazy

I am running Audyssey DSX wides right now and it does make for a bigger soundstage. I need to go back and listen to some clips with the wides turned off to see if it really does make a huge difference or not though. I know in my last house wides made the transition from the front to the back more seamless and worthwhile but in my new home the jury is still out. I have not tried heights but that would take more set-up and another pair of amp channels, maybe one day as I do have all the hardware to try it.


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## rlc51

sub_crazy said:


> I am running Audyssey DSX wides right now and it does make for a bigger soundstage. I need to go back and listen to some clips with the wides turned off to see if it really does make a huge difference or not though. I know in my last house wides made the transition from the front to the back more seamless and worthwhile but in my new home the jury is still out. I have not tried heights but that would take more set-up and another pair of amp channels, maybe one day as I do have all the hardware to try it.


nothing has the same impact then going from 2ch to 5.1, that was the BIG THING. Adding some space in the back or adding some front heights or both does add a bigger sound stage but it's not like your adding 3 times the WOW factor. Yes it costs more for speakers and a better receiver but it does add to the home theater quality sound. It depends when your budget allows for it. It like poker, you can't go " all in, all the time" just when the timing is right for you.


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## Owen Bartley

I don't think I'd be as interested in adding the extra channels to my living room (which has been 6.1 its whole life), but for a dedicated room I would (and plan to) build in provisions for both height and wide speakers. I can try them out, and worst case - decide not to use them. If I find that either the height or the wide do add something to the material depending on the medium, the processing mode, etc., then I keep them going. 

I'm not sure, but I don't think there is any processor right now that can use both height and wide (and rear surround) at the same time, but even if that never happens, the ability to easily flip back and forth would be nice, especially with all speakers hidden behind a screen wall.

For those who have installed height and/or width speakers, I know the positioning is important, have you had good results by aiming the speakers at the listening position, or were they fine just mounted flat? I thought I remembered reading someone's comment that pointing the height speakers slightly downward made an improvement in the effect.


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## rlc51

I have tried mono directional height speakers aimed at the main position. Then I tried a pair of bipolar for the height speakers. Bipolar do NOT need to be aimed as they are well defused. As I have said, Prologic IIz is best described as adding a sense of height and more depth to your front sound stage. For this the bipolar front height speakers work very well indeed and better then the mono directional. The sound that is produced for the height IIZ is ambient noise or NON-directional. I have tried all kinds of speakers for the best results and I have found it's best to use Mono-directional speakers for the front towers and then I use exactly the same tower speakers as side speakers, this gives me a terrific pin point 5.1 sound stage. The Front height I use bipole speakers and for the rear surrounds I also use bipole speakers. The shape of the room has dictated this position. I have 15ft to the front of my main chair and exactly the same in back of my chair ( 15ft ) My front main speakers are toe in to the main chair and the side speakers are also toe in but slightly behind the chair at the 110 degree position. The height bipole are 4 ft above the mains and the back bipole are 4ft above my head and 15ft in back of my chair. This of course is Denon 9.2. Is it worth the extra cost??? Well to ME it was as I use my system a lot as I am retired. No matter how expensive it is, home entertainment will ALWAYS be cheaper then spending money in bars and such.
Total expense on my system is about $1800 for all the speakers and then $1200 for the Denon 9.2.


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## Owen Bartley

Thanks for the details on your setup, rlc. It sounds like you have a great setup, and have been able to work out the best match for your speakers and room. I'd be interested to try bi- or dipole speakers for the height/width, but I think with all other speakers being monopoles, they might get a little lost. I found that in my current setup, which has the main 5 speakers being monopole designs, that when I added my rear centre surround (for 6.1) which was a dipolar design, it got lost amongst the direct radiating speakers. If all of the surrounds were dipolar, I think it would make a more enveloping surround field, but I couldn't replace my existing ones, and wanted to try something new for my DIY project. It still sounds good overall, but looking back now, I might have done things a little differently.


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## rlc51

Owen Bartley said:


> Thanks for the details on your setup, rlc. It sounds like you have a great setup, and have been able to work out the best match for your speakers and room. I'd be interested to try bi- or dipole speakers for the height/width, but I think with all other speakers being monopoles, they might get a little lost. I found that in my current setup, which has the main 5 speakers being monopole designs, that when I added my rear centre surround (for 6.1) which was a dipolar design, it got lost amongst the direct radiating speakers. If all of the surrounds were dipolar, I think it would make a more enveloping surround field, but I couldn't replace my existing ones, and wanted to try something new for my DIY project. It still sounds good overall, but looking back now, I might have done things a little differently.


The thing to remember while using Dipole or bipole speakers is the volume level you use.
using a calibration microphone work well but it's not perfect. Remember the bipole speakers throw out a different sound pattern into you room ( a wider more dispersed sound ) From your chair you might find the bipole too short of a throw as to reach you in your chair with the same impact as your direct firing monopoles. In this case the answer is simple. Just adjust the volume level of the bipole back or the bipole height speakers or both as the case may be. USE your own ears. Trust your ears. Sit in you chair and listen to your best action scenes and then balance the volume levels of all speakers so your ears are telling you that you in in the MIDDLE of the entire sound field. I found that I had to add a bit more volume to the back bipoles because as a human I sit facing forward and to add a small problem the back of my lazyboy is a bit higher and blocks the sound from the back a bit, therefore I need to pump out a bit more volume out of the back speakers to balance the sound stage. Using this setup as I have it gives me great pin-point directional sound monopole speakers and then add the height for a fuller and higher front sound stage and then add the depth or back stage sound and now you have an equal sound volume coming to your ears from ALL speakers which in turn puts you in your chair at the center of a full 360 degree sound stage that has depth as if you sitting in an much large room as in an auditorium or movie theater size room. If you find a few diagrams of the actual sound field created by a Bipole or Dipole speaker you might find it helpful in the understanding of individiual speaker sound fields and their reach or throw into you room. Upping the volume of a speaker will expand the reach and it will finally engulf your sitting position properly then adjusting each speaker in your entire setup to engulf at the same levels will attain a balanced sound stage from ALL speakers. WOW that's a low explaination.
I hope it helps.


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## sub_crazy

Owen Bartley said:


> I don't think I'd be as interested in adding the extra channels to my living room (which has been 6.1 its whole life), but for a dedicated room I would (and plan to) build in provisions for both height and wide speakers. I can try them out, and worst case - decide not to use them. If I find that either the height or the wide do add something to the material depending on the medium, the processing mode, etc., then I keep them going.
> 
> I'm not sure, but I don't think there is any processor right now that can use both height and wide (and rear surround) at the same time, but even if that never happens, the ability to easily flip back and forth would be nice, especially with all speakers hidden behind a screen wall.
> 
> For those who have installed height and/or width speakers, I know the positioning is important, have you had good results by aiming the speakers at the listening position, or were they fine just mounted flat? I thought I remembered reading someone's comment that pointing the height speakers slightly downward made an improvement in the effect.


The only reason I am using wides right now is because I do have a dedicated room, if not then they would be out. If I have time this weekend I am going to try out some scenes with and without wides to see if I should keep the configuration. Trying out heights will be more tricky as I would have to mount them so I am not sure if I want to go through the trouble.

The Denon 4311 and there flagship processor is said to have 11.1 enabled but I don't know for sure. I thought the 4311 had it when it was in my system for a couple of months. I remember reading that I would have to use an outboard 2 channel amp if I wanted to run all 11 channels as it only had 9 internal amps.


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## Owen Bartley

rlc51 said:


> Just adjust the volume level of the bipole back or the bipole height speakers or both as the case may be.


rlc, I actually did try that and it helped. There is still a difference, but it might be just as much part of the location the speaker sits in, and the furniture around it absorbing much of the energy. I appreciate the detailed response though!



sub_crazy said:


> The only reason I am using wides right now is because I do have a dedicated room, if not then they would be out. If I have time this weekend I am going to try out some scenes with and without wides to see if I should keep the configuration. Trying out heights will be more tricky as I would have to mount them so I am not sure if I want to go through the trouble.
> 
> The Denon 4311 and there flagship processor is said to have 11.1 enabled but I don't know for sure. I thought the 4311 had it when it was in my system for a couple of months. I remember reading that I would have to use an outboard 2 channel amp if I wanted to run all 11 channels as it only had 9 internal amps.


sub_crazy, any luck demoing some material? I thought I read somewhere that it was a limitation of the processor, not the amps, and that the most that could be output at once was 9 channels, so there wasn't a scenario for height+wide+rear surround. It seems like it was a while ago though, and I haven't been able to find the post again, so I might have mis-remembered it. I do think I remember someone pointing out that even with 11 outboard amps, they weren't able to get everything going at once.


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## sub_crazy

Owen Bartley said:


> sub_crazy, any luck demoing some material? I thought I read somewhere that it was a limitation of the processor, not the amps, and that the most that could be output at once was 9 channels, so there wasn't a scenario for height+wide+rear surround. It seems like it was a while ago though, and I haven't been able to find the post again, so I might have mis-remembered it. I do think I remember someone pointing out that even with 11 outboard amps, they weren't able to get everything going at once.


I didn't do as much testing as I would have liked but the little I did tells me that wides in my new room doesn't have the same effect it did in my old room. The new room is 28' deep and 14' wide, my last room was about 16' wide and not as long so it was closer to a square making the surrounds closer to the wides. In my old room the pan from the wides to the surrounds was great and it really gave a more enveloping experience. In my new room I can't say I notice the same effect and listening with and without the wides is not as big a difference as it was before. I do get a bigger soundstage with wides but it is not as pronounced as before. 
I should also mention that in my last home I experimented with wides with my Von Schweikert speakers and in this house I am using Triad THX Gold speakers so that could be making the difference as well.

I would say if you have the right room for it then wides are definitely worthwhile as it made a big difference in my last home. In my new home not so much of a difference so I would suppose everyone's experiences would be different.


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## Owen Bartley

I think that's why I would ideally like to set up for both and then decide what I like best. We'll see how that plan shakes out.

I did just come across something of note though, the Audioholics review of the Denon 4810CI says:



Audioholics Review said:


> ...the AVR-4810CI includes Dolby ProLogic IIz and Audyssey DSX for height and width channels. There are analogue outputs for two additional DSX channels so you can add additional amps for an 11.3 setup.


So maybe it really is possible to jam with all channels driven, and processed signals to height & width at the same time... :dontknow:


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## sub_crazy

I had the Denon 4311 for a couple of months and I am almost positive it can play 11 channels. I remember it saying that if you want to do it you have to add a 2 channel amp since it only has 9 internal channels of amplification.


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## Owen Bartley

Good to know. I don't think Onkyo has a model that will do 11.1 right now, even with outboard amps, and in my search I came across a post on HTF by a user who had contacted Onkyo customer service and had this reply back in April 2011:



Onkyo Customer Service said:


> Thank You for contacting Onkyo USA Product Support...
> 
> ...Unfortunately we will not coming out with 11.2 receivers and even if you run a seperate amplifiers through the pre amp connections the maximum number of speakers is 9.2.


That might be discouraging, but maybe that employee was misinformed, or maybe they will just (or have already) change their corporate minds and get into the competition. Yamaha and Denon seem to be the only ones I've found with 11.2 channel processing right now.


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## rlc51

I don't know if some of you got the wrong impression.
My current setup is 9.2. I use 1 center speaker + 2 X 12" 150 watt subs, 4 x identical tower speakers ( 1" + 5.5" + 2 x 8" woofers ), 2 bipole ( 1" + 5.5" ) up top in front as my Height speakers and 2 exact copies of my bipole speakers as my BACK speakers. I have plenty of width in front from my front towers as they send out a wide dispersion pattern ( they actually bounce off the side walls a bit for the widest front sound stage I can get) so front "WIDE" speakers are just not necessary in this room. So 9.2 for me. If I had a bigger basement and a very wide 30 ft front wall I might have needed " wide " speakers but at 20ft it's just not necessary.
Room size is almost square at 20 ft wide by 26 ft deep, no obstructions


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## Mika75

​*www.barco.com Auro-3D_v3.pdf*
​











.


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## benniebeeker

i have an onkyo tx-nr807 and to be honest i can barely tell that the high speakers are producing sound...


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## sub_crazy

Mika75 said:


> ​*www.barco.com Auro-3D_v3.pdf*
> ​Auro-3D, Barco's 3D sound technology for the digital cinema industry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I don't know, doesn't look like enough speakers to me:dontknow:


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## Owen Bartley

sub_crazy said:


> I don't know, doesn't look like enough speakers to me:dontknow:


That's because they haven't installed the ones under the seats yet!

I'm all for technological advancement, and I bet seeing something in a theatre like that sounds really cool, but I will admit there has to be a point where diminishing returns kick in and it just isn't cost effective or practical enough to justify the amount of speaker channels. With that said, as a technical exercise, and a "lets see if we can do it" project... I still think it's pretty cool.


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## Mika75

HOME 10.1 and how it would be positioned.
www.auro-3d.com


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## Owen Bartley

So that keeps the speakers to a fairly reasonable number, especially if you could use in-ceiling for the height channels, which would hide them nicely. 

I looked around the website a little bit, but only saw that it will "soon be available for a wide range of consumer devices". I didn't see if you will need proprietary hardware from Auro for processing, or if this is something that will be picked up by other major brands?


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## rubbersoul

Looks impressive but how many blu-ray disc's out there have more than 7 channels?
Or am I missing something.


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## sub_crazy

Prologic IIZ, Audyssey DSX and DTS NEO X are all derived surround formats from the current channels, there are no discs mastered in these formats. While there 7.1 channel discs these are for rear channels, not height and width which are matrixed.

It is the same if you have a normal 7.1 channel system with rear surrounds. If you play a 5.1 channel disc and engage Prologic IIX it uses it's matrix encoder to create the sound in the rear channels.


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## erwinbel

Mika75 said:


> HOME 10.1 and how it would be positioned.
> www.auro-3d.com


Auro-3D is a Belgian company, yet I never heard of them before :dontknow:

Did a bit of a search and the CEO quoted in a local newspaper last year that movies are supposed to be processed in the format, but it can also be produced "on the fly", like DSX. We will see...

It reminds me a lot about the Yamaha "presence" channels. Their DSP-Z11 even had the necessary 11 amps on board. Difference is that had the rear surrounds from the 7.1 format, while Auro-3D does without these, optionally in favour of the center ceiling speaker. I suppose the approach is rather different though. The Yamaha presence channels add more perceived depth to the scene (I tested this with my RX-V2700), while the Auro-3D is meant to add the full 3D soundfield. 

If I mix this with DSX and Dolby PLII-X, I count no less than... 14 channels, not including subs...:devil:

We are getting there!
The ideal amount of speakers is endless!


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## SteveCallas

Assuming all goes well, I'll be trying out 9.2 tomorrow. I can't see how it wouldn't be better, if only marginally. But it certainly shouldn't be worse.


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## sub_crazy

SteveCallas said:


> Assuming all goes well, I'll be trying out 9.2 tomorrow. I can't see how it wouldn't be better, if only marginally. But it certainly shouldn't be worse.


Are you doing wides or heights?

I plan on moving my wides to a new location to see if it will make as big a difference as it did in my last home. Right now I could live without it but there is a small difference.


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## erwinbel

SteveCallas said:


> Assuming all goes well, I'll be trying out 9.2 tomorrow. I can't see how it wouldn't be better, if only marginally. But it certainly shouldn't be worse.


You are correct about that "marginal" part...

As "Audyssey" Chris explaned, one needs to more or less double the channel count to really make a big difference. It went from mono to stereo (even 3 channels were exploited, but that's hard to do with a vinyl record, so stereo it was). Then an attempt for Quad music before 5.1 establishing itself. From there, Thom Holman was pushing his 10.2 idea. But since by the the time DSX was introduced to the market, the 7.1 was already in the market (with 2 rears in stead of the one from 10.2) 11 channels were chozen. 

http://www.audioholics.com/news/on-...ratories/introducing-the-10-2-surround-format

And white papers show x.2 is better than x.1 since some rudimental directionality down to 45 Hz is sensed. The difference between R and L is heard, or front and rear.

Heckydyheck, why aren't we already on 20.4?


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## SteveCallas

They are going to be both wide and high in position - a speaker on top of each LLT - but I will use the processing as highs.


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## Owen Bartley

Let us know what you think, Steve, I haven't had a chance to experience wide or height speakers yet, and I like to see people's opinions, especially where they are able to compare directly to a "with or without" scenario.


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## SteveCallas

I just didn't get a chance to hook up the new receiver - it's such a daunting task and I just never got a chance to start. For sure, I will swap it out this weekend.


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## Owen Bartley

Steve, we may need to take a sample of your blood. It might contain the cure for upgrade-itis! If you can have a new receiver sitting around in a box and not have physical symptoms (sweaty palms, feelings of paranoia, the shakes) from just looking at it and not plugging something in, this might be a serious breakthrough! :unbelievable:


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## sub_crazy

I moved my wides more out into the room last night and re-ran Audyssey to see if that made a difference. Now the difference is more noticeable but the speaker placement is odd and in a normal living room I could never see my-self doing that which is why I never did in my last home. Even in the dedicated room I have right now it's odd as they are the only speakers visible in the front since the other 3 are behind the AT screen.

The effect doesn't blow me away but there is more of a surround bubble around you. It would be worth it if speaker placement wasn't such an issue which I suppose it would be for most people.


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## SteveCallas

sub_crazy said:


> It would be worth it if speaker placement wasn't such an issue which I suppose it would be for most people.


I agree it is definitely a weird position. If my subs weren't so tall, I probably wouldn't attempt it, as it would require mounting wall brackets.



Owen Bartley said:


> If you can have a new receiver sitting around in a box and not have physical symptoms (sweaty palms, feelings of paranoia, the shakes) from just looking at it and not plugging something in, this might be a serious breakthrough!


Well there happened to be a little game called Mass Effect 3 that I decided I was going to finish this past weekend, and it completely engrossed me. For those of us enthusiasts who don't play video games, you have no idea what you are missing - the AV on this game in the last couple hours at the end is off the wall insane, better than any movie I have ever watched.


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## Owen Bartley

Mass Effect 3 sounds great, did you manage to finish it? I did a little googling and saw (without spoiling) that a lot of people were let down by the ending. I'd give it a try but I'm so far behind in my gaming that starting a new one now would be pointless. Between Forza 4, Skyrim, and a very short time starting Assassin's Creed, I usually only get a couple of hours a week to play.

It seems like from what I've read that sub_crazy is right on the money, and placement is very important with height/wide speakers. I think anyone experimenting with them will at least have to try more than one setup before writing them off, even if you don't plan to keep them set out a foot or two into your listening room permanently.


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## SteveCallas

Yes, I finished it, and yes the ending is very bad if you believe it is the actual ending, but I don't, and there is free DLC coming to deliver the true ending. That said, it's easily one of, if not the best games I've ever played. On AV merit, it is in a league of its own.


The way I'm looking at this 9.2 is why not? I can get more Boston A25 or A26 bookshelves really cheap if I like it, and having more speakers contribute to the surround field can't hurt, especially up front, up high, and out wide. My mains are at a perfect 30 degrees, these will be more like 45 degrees, and up near the ceiling - the one place that is probably the most lacking for an additional pair of surround speakers.


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## SteveCallas

How long does it take to move some equipment, disconnect everything from my old receiver, swap some cables, connect everything to my new receiver, move all the equipment back, and do a quick check to make sure it's actually working? 4 hours :doh: Now I still have to get all the settings where I want, and then finally try out 9.2. New receivers are WAAAAY too much work.


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## SteveCallas

I swear I'm not trying to drag this out, but I only had enough time earlier today to try listening to some music. Problem is, all my settings of ProLogic IIx Music disappear when using ProLogic IIz Height. I like my PLIIx Music with the center channel 1 notch from being completely off, and the soundstage pushed all the way to the front, with the surrounds and rears only getting a little information. When I switch to PLIIz Height, the center channel comes blaring in, and the surrounds are being utilized too much. Anybody know if there is a fix to this, or is height meant mainly for DD and DTS sources like movies, and will always ignore my music settings? 

From this extremely limited, extremely biased test, it is noticable that the heights do add to the front soundstage presence, and in a relatively pleasing way. With some fine tuning for movies and video games, I think it may be a keeper, but I still have to conduct a proper test. Here are some quick shots with the cheapy RCA's I'm using as test mules.


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## SteveCallas

I just watched the opening 20 minutes or so of Titan AE with ProLogic IIz Height, and the front height channels do make a difference. Is it night and day? No. Is it noticable? Yes. Is it for the better? Yes. It makes the soundstage noticably bigger, and while I didn't necessarily pick up on vertical panning effects, I did notice some type of continuation of the surround field. It's good enough that I am going to go ahead and purchase another pair of Boston A25s specifically for front height duty. 

After the earth exploded and the scenes starting calming down a bit, I took down one of the height speakers, still wired, to listen closely as to what effects are sent to it. Music and dialog definitely were not, only surround effects - I imagine the processing going on is looking for effects that are shared between each respective main and surround speaker, then duplicating it in the front height. 

Side note - these cheapy RCA speakers don't weigh a whole lot, and the earth exploding scene has a lot of bass. Enough bass that between the vibration and the gust of air coming out of the top port, the left front high speaker was knocked off the sub!! :hsd: This is an underrated movie in terms of sound.


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## Owen Bartley

Steve, Titan AE is still one of my favourite demo discs. The scene where they navigate the ice fields is great for LFE. 

It sounds like a successful trial with movies, which I am glad to hear. Did you ever sort out the difference with music?


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## Timoteo

Actually the more speakers you add into a system the more chance there is for Phase issues. So from a technical standpoint, adding more surrounds COULD make things sound worse. But as long as that is addressed then it should sound better. It's just not black & white!


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## SteveCallas

Owen Batley said:


> Did you ever sort out the difference with music?


No, I don't think I will be able to use the height speakers with music, as there isn't any listening mode that retains my ProLogic IIx settings while activating the height channels. I think this is some kind of error in the processing, as there is a listening mode called ProLogic IIx with Audessy DSX, which one would interpret as my ProLogic settings with Audessy layered on top to include the heights, but unfortunately that is not the case. The center channel and surrounds receive far too much information in this mode - I like my music reproduction to come primarily from my mains and subs with just a little bit of center and surrounds included. 

So I will stick with ProLogic IIx 7.2 for music and use ProLogic IIz 9.2 layered on top of DD and DTS sources for movies and games.


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## Owen Bartley

That's not too bad of a compromise. At least you can use PL IIz for movies and flip back to PL IIx for music by just changing the mode, and not having to worry about tweaking and adjusting settings each time. It is a shame that there aren't PL IIz "music" and "movie" modes that will retain individual settings, but I guess nothing is perfect.


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## Nak

I'm curious if the IIz 9.2 channel systems incorporate "Dialog Lift" like the Yamaha presence channels? For those unfamiliar, Dialog lift mixes the center channel with the two front presence speakers, changing the perceived location of dialog. Not a big deal with even a 65" screen, but we notice a huge difference with our 138" screen. Instead of the voices coming from below the screen, it actually sounds like the voices are coming from the character's mouth.


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## Owen Bartley

Nak, I thought I remembered reading somewhere that plIIz doesn't mix the centre channel into the heights, but maybe that was talking about the Audyssey DSX modes. I'm pretty sure that at least one of them derives the front height output from the front left and right with the surround channels but omits the centre.


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## SteveCallas

It's not a ProLogic IIz setting, but it is a generic setting within the audio menu of this Onkyo receiver that would then get applied to any 9.2 implementation using height channels....which is ProLogiz IIz or Audessy DSX. Onkyo calls it "Screen Ctr Dialog" and it's adjustable from 1 to 5 if turned on. I don't use it.


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## Nak

Thanks guys, I appreciate the information. I'm a long ways from changing out receivers--I'm still more than happy with my RX-Z11--but I do like to keep abreast of current technology. It's good to know that Dialog lift is incorporated into newer receivers. It's the primary reason my last two receivers were Yamahas.


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## Driver_King

Timoteo said:


> Actually the more speakers you add into a system the more chance there is for Phase issues. So from a technical standpoint, adding more surrounds COULD make things sound worse. But as long as that is addressed then it should sound better. It's just not black & white!


You are right in a way that if in the situation where you were to perhaps split the connection from a single input to two speakers, you could have phase issues but that would not apply for a proper 9.1 system utilizing Dolby, DTS, Audyssey, Yamaha, or equivalent technologies for extra speakers, unless I am misunderstanding.


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