# Receiver Help.



## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Hello all, I posted on here a while back inquiring about a good home theater system set up and I'm finally ready to begin collecting my system! : ) However, I ran into one issue the receiver that was suggested to me on this site is no longer available from the retailer accessories4less as a result I am trying to look for a receiver that was in the same price range that could still power my speakers and sub that were suggested to me. I looked online, but I can't seem to grasp what receivers can power what speakers etc. Below is the sound system I'm trying to build. The only receiver I can afford in my price range is the Onkyo TX-NR609 is this receiver powerful enough to work the set up I'm trying to build? 

http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...Channel-3-D-Ready-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

Sub
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/sho...5&utm_source=googleps&AID=1457483&PID=2777698

Speakers
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LSR2325P

If anyone knows anything about the best kind of wire too connect all this stuff with as well please feel free to let me know as I'm still new to this.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

The Onkyo Reciever is a good start but the JBL's are questionable. I wouldn't expect any miracles from any sub costing $99, no less one that is fully powered. Personally, I would find a used Paradigm PW-2200 or its cheaper brother the PW-2100, also worth mentioning are the Paradigm PS-1000 / PS-1200 but they dont offer the smoother audio quality offered by the PW series. These subs can often be found on craigslist or ebay for $250 or less (I've seen some real bargains). 

As for speakers, I own some cheap JBLs and find them disappointing. And it seems by your choice of AV reciver, you are looking for surround sound. The ones sold by sweetwater dont seem to offer a matching center channel. My guess is that you are looking to spend around $600-700 on a speaker package. I would give Aperion Audio, Axiom, or Paradigm (cinema or the better monitor line) a good look as they are known for reasonably good sound at a good price. 

A Paradigm Millenia One system with out a sub will cost about the same as those JBL's and is better by light years. That's the route I would go; do it once do it right. 

http://www.aperionaudio.com/catalog/Small-Rooms,70.aspx
http://www.axiomaudio.com/hometheaters.html

new url
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/home-theater-speakers/1090-paradigm-milleniaone.html


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The TX-NR609 is actually more powerful than some $1000 AVR's with it Bench Tested showing output of around 90 Watts into 5 Channels. Thus, power should not be an issue. 

The 609 does lack some features that are quite important to me and many others, no Preamp Outputs should you ever need or want to add an Outboard Amplifier, and Audyssey's most basic Room EQ 2EQ. With 2EQ, there is no Filtering or EQ on the Subwoofer Channel whereas this is something that the more advanced Audyssey EQ's excel at. Between 2EQ and the lack of Preamp Outputs, there is a lack of flexibility for future upgrades. Granted, the 609 does have enough power to drive most speakers to Reference Levels, but I always think it best to have the most possible flexibility.
Cheers,
J


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Jack is correct, I think the 609 is the best budget receiver out there by far however for the extra little $$ the Onkyo 709 is my favorite by far as it has MuliEQ XT and pre outs :T


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

I see... so I should upgrade to the 709 for a more future proof set up? Also what should I do about the speakers is there anything better than the jbl's that wouldn't blow my budget through the roof? lol My budget is relatively low and I'm just looking for something low end to get me started off. Although upgrading is important for me so I will probably go for the stronger receiver now.

Also where is the best place to buy the paradigm millennia one speakers? Is there a specific place that offers them refurbished? Don't get me wrong I'm all for getting a great system, but unfortunately I still need to eat... T_T


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Just start off with just your two main channels for now and spend as much as you can on them. The 709 is the best way to go, I would not go lower.
What is your max budget for speakers?


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

$700 is honestly pushing it for now I wouldn't want to go much farther then that. I know thats not that great or anything, but It's the most I can afford for the time being. I'm really looking for something just to get started off with that isn't anything special, but is just decent. I don't want to buy a HTIB because I actually want something I could build off of.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Raikugen said:


> I see... so I should upgrade to the 709 for a more future proof set up? Also what should I do about the speakers is there anything better than the jbl's that wouldn't blow my budget through the roof? lol My budget is relatively low and I'm just looking for something low end to get me started off. Although upgrading is important for me so I will probably go for the stronger receiver now.


How low are you looking to go?

The TX-SR609 is a great choice. Money is better spent on speakers than amplification, that's a common mistake made by people newer to the higher fidelity club. Check my post above, I've linked you to a set of Aperion Speakers which are around $800 for complete surround set up or about $100 a speaker which is about what your JBL's cost. Paradigm also offers CT 5.1 in this price range, avoid the older ones you see on ebay; they have vastly improved the newer speakers they sell today.


Note this review includes the sub. The speakers alone are $250 each and are BOSE slayers. 
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/ar...gm-milleniaone-speakers-milleniasub-subwoofer 
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/satellite/paradigm-milleniaone-milleniasub-fl


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ive heard good reports about these Elimental Designs A6.t speakers and then this A6.mtm for a centre channel.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

8086 said:


> Money is better spent on speakers than amplification, that's a common mistake made by people newer to the higher fidelity club.


Although I agree with your rational an underpowered speaker is just as bad actually even worse because you end up with distortion.
The 709 has Multi EQ XT and that gives you equalization on the sub channel as well, very important if you cant afford a sub costing at least $600 with equalization built in.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

The paradigm speakers are really interesting, but why the is that subwoofer's price through the roof? Just curious as to what makes it worth so much. Those Aperion's you sent me look nice though and the onkyo tx-nr609 would be enough to power the set well?


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

So I should forget the Dayton sub that I was planning on using earlier? I just wanted something for starting out I'm not expecting anything all of you guys would be expecting. I'm jumping into this world after using my logitech z-5500. lol I'm sure almost anything suggested on this site would sound leagues better then what I'm used to.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Although I agree with your rational an underpowered speaker is just as bad actually even worse because you end up with distortion.
> The 709 has Multi EQ XT and that gives you equalization on the sub channel as well, very important if you cant afford a sub costing at least $600 with equalization built in.



I agree with your statement. But distortion also depends on the volume levels at which he intends to play back his material with. If we can select a nice speaker (EG, Klipsch, Axiom) with a highly efficient SPL number then you can certainly do more with less power and thus less distortion. The older Klipsch Synergy Quintet iii are worth mentioning (still better stuff out there) as something he can afford and drive at a reasonable volume level with little power input. They are now discontinued and I have heard the newer ones with disappointing results. 

Perhaps the way for him to go for now is a nice Onkyo home theater in a box system. The cheap ones under $600 I'd avoid; but some of their THX certified HTIBs in the $600-900 range are quite nice.

http://onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=HT-S9400THX&class=Systems&p=i
http://www.google.com/products/cata...ST5uFN8WysAK8y_TvBQ&ved=0CF4QxBUwAA#scoring=p


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Raikugen said:


> So I should forget the Dayton sub that I was planning on using earlier? I just wanted something for starting out I'm not expecting anything all of you guys would be expecting. I'm jumping into this world after using my logitech z-5500. lol I'm sure almost anything suggested on this site would sound leagues better then what I'm used to.



Those logi's bass remind me of when I was a kid and used to beat on mom's pots and pans trying to make music. It was just a terrible monotone sound. 




Raikugen said:


> The paradigm speakers are really interesting, but why the is that subwoofer's price through the roof? Just curious as to what makes it worth so much. Those Aperion's you sent me look nice though and the onkyo tx-nr609 would be enough to power the set well?


Paradigm puts a lot of R&D money in to their subs and they spare little expense in their construction. That tiny little millenium sub has enough umph to make the San Andreas fault green with envy. The bass is certainly refrece quality but for more impact some people choose to upgrade to the Paradigm SUB2 option.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I do agree the Onkyo HTIB systems are good for the money, Raikugen wants something that is futureproof. having pre outs is a nice option. The 609 will drive most efficient bookshelf speakers to reference levels but only if he has a sub included. if he gets some good towers his low end exstention will make it possible to forgo a sub for the short term till he can save up for a decent one from the likes of SVS, HSU and others. In my opinion there are better options for subs than Paradigm


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Thats pretty awesome about the paradigm's I would really want to get a set of those when I build my dream system. As far as the Onkyo HTIB go I've seen some of them and they look good. I'm just concerned about the speakers that come with them. Plus plenty of people still say they are just another HTIB and if I can do better I would like to.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> I do agree the Onkyo HTIB systems are good for the money, Raikugen wants something that is futureproof. having pre outs is a nice option. The 609 will drive most efficient bookshelf speakers to reference levels but only if he has a sub included. if he gets some good towers his low end exstention will make it possible to forgo a sub for the short term till he can save up for a decent one from the likes of SVS, HSU and others. In my opinion there are better options for subs than Paradigm


Almost nothing in this world of electronics is future proof. Given he's on a tight budget, something somewhere has to give. Value is going to be his number one goal here and Onkyo delivers.



Raikugen said:


> Thats pretty awesome about the paradigm's I would really want to get a set of those when I build my dream system. As far as the Onkyo HTIB go I've seen some of them and they look good. I'm just concerned about the speakers that come with them. Plus plenty of people still say they are just another HTIB and if I can do better I would like to.


The speakers on the cheaper Onkyo HTIB's are something to worry about. But at this level, I have heard them and they are pretty nice. If I had a low budget, I wouldn't have a problem using that as a second system for my PC gaming room or the like. 




I forgot to mention in my other post, Aperion and Axiom offer free in home trials. So there's little or no risk involved. Also worth Mentioning in this category of high value direct to consumer stuff is Audio Engine and their P4 (unpowered) speakers, they too offer an in home trial and some of their fans are almost cult like.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

So would this system be worth getting after all? I was paranoid about it because of the speakers, but if they are okay should I go for this?

http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...-Network-Home-Theater-Receiver/Speaker/1.html


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Raikugen said:


> So would this system be worth getting after all? I was paranoid about it because of the speakers, but if they are okay should I go for this?
> 
> http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...-Network-Home-Theater-Receiver/Speaker/1.html


I've personally listened to the last 3 generations of Onkyo's very best Home Theater in a Box setups and walk away impressed every time. Consumer Reports (if that's your thing) also ranks them as their number #1 pick year after year. CNET and other sites also say pretty much the same. HTIB has a stigma associated with it, but dont let that deter you; as it has yet to deter legions of BOSE customers from shelling out thousands for one of their Lifestyle HTIB systems. Onkyo's system is just as good and if not better for a fraction of the price.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Does the receiver that comes with the system offer the same kind of upscaling capabilities as the nr-609? I was hoping it could help improve the picture of some of the older movies and wii games I own.

Also my brother unfortunately got a bose system and it is underwhelming to say the least.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Raikugen said:


> Does the receiver that comes with the system offer the same kind of upscaling capabilities as the nr-609? I was hoping it could help improve the picture of some of the older movies and wii games I own.


Just looking at the supported features, it appears to have HDMI v1.4 and Marvell Qdeo video processing. 

http://www.marvell.com/digital-entertainment/qdeo/


What kind of HDTV do you own. Most newer TV's (especially panasonic) come with a decent scaler built right in. So a pass through may be all you need. If you do need one, there are external scalers out there you can buy and add on. But I'd personally spend the cash on a better reference quality TV with that feature built right in.
http://www.atlona.com/Atlona-Video-Scaler-with-HDMI-output.html


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello.
Wow this has been a happening Thread since last I posted. I have lost count of the times that I have said that Speakers are the most important single component. It could be close to 1000 times. That being said, with this Thread being on the AVR Subforum, I was far more vectored on the AVR.

I still think it is worthwhile to spend $130 more to get MultEQ XT. I was multitasking last night and did not look at the speaker choices, but I would avoid an HTIB like the plague unless it is the only option. Better to start with a pair of quality Speakers and a decent Subwoofer. Only in the rare instances where the money had is the only time money will be purposed towards the HT, would I do it all at once if the budget it quite low. 

All this being said, Newegg still has some amazing values and added with something like the Dayton Sub120, we can actually still help you get close to $100 per Channel.
For instance, these Klipsch Icon W-14's retail for $600: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882780083
If needing to spend less, the Andrew Jones Designed Pioneer EX Series Bookshelf is also available there for $100 a pair. ($50 savings)
Cheers,
JJ


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

I own a Panasonic GT-25 and while the upscaling abilities aren't the most important thing. it would be nice just to be able to get everything I could. The Klipsch speakers look nice and seem very reasonable I heard a lot of good things about Klipsch I'm actually surprised they haven't been talked about more. As far as the Dayton sub would it really be worth getting it or is that something I should think about spending a little more time on. Bass is one of the things I like most and I just don't want extremely heavy muffled noises. It doesn't have to be perfect I would just like the system to be as fluent as possible.

Back to the speaker side though the klipsch and the pioneers both look good, but would the extra money on the klipsch provide any noticeable difference? I've heard plenty of people say the pioneers sound extremely well for how cheap they are. Would there be any benefit with going with the klipsch?


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Also since upscaling shouldn't be too big a deal since panasonic supposedly does it well anyway. Would the Onkyo tx-nr708 work as well as the 709? they both have the Audyssey MultEQ and the only real difference is the video processing by marvell and faroudja. Any thoughts on this?


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## altahometheatre (Oct 18, 2008)

My personal thoughts are I would not worry too much about video in a budget avr. There are many components in the chain that upscale today and if you watch a lot of blurry, not too important. I would make sure to get room correction and enough hdmi 1.4 inputs in the avr. It is the only piece in chain that can do it. It is almost never added after the fact (some high end such as anthem have). Multieq xt is good, xt32 is better. Have you considered used?


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Well as far as the receiver goes I'm most likely getting the Onkyo tx-nr709 it has what I need at the best price. However, I am thinking of buying the andrew jones pioneer SP sound system set to go with it. Now I'm stuck wondering if I should stick with the Dayton sub or if I should get the Pioneer sub that goes with the speakers. 

Dayton
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/sho...5&utm_source=googleps&AID=1457483&PID=2777698

Pioneer
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117402


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The 709s video processing is far superior to the faroudja chip in the 708. Having the video processing that the 709 has in that price is unheard of. If you upscale anything to 1080p your going to want a good processor. Unless you have a Panasonic BluRay player, PS3 or Oppo your going to want to have a good video chip in a receiver to do this.
For a sub it is not necessary to match brands, You want the best output for the money and dont go by the driver size as a 10" sub in a large ported well designed box is going to outperform a 12" in a poorly made enclosure.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Well I have a PS3 and it does a very good job I was mainly hoping this receiver would help clean up the wii games I play a little bit. I hate having to look at pixelated jagginess when im playing super mario galaxy or skyward sword, but thats another story. I figured the Pioneer sub might be the better route to go especially since newegg offers such great prices.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Personally I would hold off on a sub till you have a bit more to spend. neither of those are going to be very good.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

It can't be any worse than what I'm used with my z-5500 its on a good sale price with the rest of the speakers so it should work out as a starting point for me at least.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

True, In the end its what sounds good to you. If it makes you happy then go for it :T


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

I just realized that the onkyo ht-s9400 costs $630 and my built system would only cost $620 if I were getting the Onkyo tx-nr609. It's crazy how affordable it could be to build your own system instead. Although everyone one here really suggests the enhanced audyssey the 709 has so I'm probably going to spend $800 overall now. But if it makes that big a difference its worth it.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

It will, having the better Audessey is a big deal in my opinion.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Don't mean to sound like a complete idiot, but what exactly does it do? Does it make the speakers play better or at the correct tone or something?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

No issue ask away 
Put simple, Audessey takes readings of all the speakers one at a time using a mic that you place at the listening positions in your room. It calculates distance, and also EQs then to close to flat so they sound proper in your room. It also sets all of the crossovers (not always correct but a good guess) so that you dont send frequencies to them that they cant handle.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

I see so the onkyo 709 audyssey does this calibration better than the one the onkyo 609? Or are there other steps that the 709 does that the 609 doesn't do at all?


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Raikugen said:


> Well I have a PS3 and it does a very good job I was mainly hoping this receiver would help clean up the wii games I play a little bit. I hate having to look at pixelated jagginess when im playing super mario galaxy or skyward sword, but thats another story. I figured the Pioneer sub might be the better route to go especially since newegg offers such great prices.


Unfortunately I don't believe it's going to upscale Wii games. I would still get the 709 though.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

JBrax said:


> Unfortunately I don't believe it's going to upscale Wii games. I would still get the 709 though.


Yup, the 709 does upscale everything to 1080p Wii included.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Yup, the 709 does upscale everything to 1080p Wii included.


As I was and standing down then.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

It's alright JBrax it doesn't hurt to give your two cents. I appreciate everyone helping me out this much. I feel like I learned a lot and have been able to make a lot of improvements to my home theater set up. I am curious about one more thing though as far as hookups go am I using a special kind of wire for this? Or should i just use standard speaker wire?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

JBrax said:


> As I was and standing down then.


Hey Jeff, no big deal  Ive said lots of things that i have been wrong about. Thats how I learnt what was right.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Just get a spool of regular 14awg stranded copper speaker wire and dont spend too much. It makes no audible difference.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Alright well I guess that should be everything I'll be back to let you guys know how the system sounds. Thanks for all the help everyone. :T


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Raikugen said:


> It's alright JBrax it doesn't hurt to give your two cents. I appreciate everyone helping me out this much. I feel like I learned a lot and have been able to make a lot of improvements to my home theater set up. I am curious about one more thing though as far as hookups go am I using a special kind of wire for this? Or should i just use standard speaker wire?


You can't go wrong with the advice or people here. As you can see if the advice is incorrect there's going to be someone to clean it up. A lot to learn here.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Yeah this place really helped me out a lot. I know quite a bit about HDTV's, but sound is such a more dynamic topic. I just can't wait to finally set up my speakers sit back and enjoy the sound.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Raikugen said:


> I own a Panasonic GT-25 and while the upscaling abilities aren't the most important thing. it would be nice just to be able to get everything I could. The Klipsch speakers look nice and seem very reasonable I heard a lot of good things about Klipsch I'm actually surprised they haven't been talked about more. As far as the Dayton sub would it really be worth getting it or is that something I should think about spending a little more time on. Bass is one of the things I like most and I just don't want extremely heavy muffled noises. It doesn't have to be perfect I would just like the system to be as fluent as possible.
> 
> Back to the speaker side though the klipsch and the pioneers both look good, but would the extra money on the klipsch provide any noticeable difference? I've heard plenty of people say the pioneers sound extremely well for how cheap they are. Would there be any benefit with going with the klipsch?




Pioneer is great as long as you stick with teh Elite SC-xxx line with the ICE amps and avoid the VSX-xxxx line of receivers. I had the chance to listen to Bowers and Wilkins on Pioneer elite SC as well as on Marantz and was thoroughly impressed with the cleanliness and detail of sound from that receiver compared to my old Pioneer VSX. 

As for Klipsch: 
Klipsch's second claim to fame after their horn, is the efficiency of their speakers. Meaning you need less power from your amplifier to get a suitable or loud level of volume. But efficiency often comes with trade offs like reduced bass quality. Their sound quality isn't okay in most cases, there is better stuff out there. A lot of newer Klipsch stuff is junk compared to the stuff sold a decade ago.




Raikugen said:


> I just realized that the onkyo ht-s9400 costs $630 and my built system would only cost $620 if I were getting the Onkyo tx-nr609. It's crazy how affordable it could be to build your own system instead. Although everyone one here really suggests the enhanced audyssey the 709 has so I'm probably going to spend $800 overall now. But if it makes that big a difference its worth it.



Having Audyssey can help, the *Onkyo HT-S9400THX does feature Audyssey 2EQ*, with Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume. You're going to have a hard time beating this system, even if it costs $1200. Compared to your $200 Logitech, you will be blown away.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

The onkyo tx-nr609 features the same audyssey abilities that the onkyo ht-s9400thx has. I just doubt the receiver and the speakers are better than the ones that I'll be purchasing for the price. I checked CNET and the Pioneer speakers I'll be using got really good reviews with their only downside being their size and appearance. Neither of which I really care about, since sound quality is the most important thing to me.

I agree though about pretty much anything will sound amazing after using my z-5500.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Raikugen said:


> The onkyo tx-nr609 features the same audyssey abilities that the onkyo ht-s9400thx has. I just doubt the receiver and the speakers are better than the ones that I'll be purchasing for the price. I checked CNET and the Pioneer speakers I'll be using got really good reviews with their only downside being their size and appearance. Neither of which I really care about, since sound quality is the most important thing to me.
> 
> I agree though about pretty much anything will sound amazing after using my z-5500.




CNET tends to overrate a lot of stuff, especially audio and perhaps they don't want to offend their advertisers. They do give better reviews when it comes to mass market stuff like IPODS or anything else with a USB port. Save the boutique audio reviews for Stereophile, audioholics, hometheatershack, and it's competition; you're going to get much more honesty there. 

As for pioneer speakers, they can be hit and miss. On the high and ultra high end, Pioneer's TAD division unquestionably makes some of the worlds best. On the lower end of the price spectrum, you can often find better sounding stuff at the same price point from other manufacturers (some you may not have heard of). Which Pioneer's were you looking at?



I'm using Paradigm Studio 60, and these onkyo's wouldn't bother me one bit for use in a bedroom or as a second system. A few years ago, I picked up a cheap $200 lower end Onkyo HTIB for my mother and it's pretty awesome for that price (but I know there is better) and better than any Multimedia PC Speakers which cost 2x as much. 

I wouldn't recommend anything with crummy speakers. Just check out the amazon reviews for this Onkyo Speaker set, which aren't as nice as the ones that come with the HT-S9400THX.
http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-SKS-HT540-Channel-Theater-Speaker/dp/B000GU78Z4


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Sub
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117402

Floorstanding
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117403

Center
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117404

Bookshelf
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117405

Those were the speakers I was going to use they have some pretty awesome sales on them and I thought the reviews were pretty good, but you're right I didn't use any audio specific sites. I figured CNET might be good since they know a good deal about HDTV. Please let me know if you know anything about these speakers and whether they are better or worse than the Onkyo HT-S9400THX. They both are basically the same price so I would hate to just pick one that is blatantly worse. : /


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

I just checked stereophile and they gave the bookshelf speakers good reviews so I'm hoping that means the sub and other speakers are good as well. I'm going to try and find a review of the Onkyo HT-S9400THX to see how it is as well.

Well I checked and could't find anything from the really good audio sites about the onkyo ht-s9400thx. They gave pretty good reviews of the pioneer ones so I guess I'll just try my luck.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Raikugen said:


> I just checked stereophile and they gave the bookshelf speakers good reviews so I'm hoping that means the sub and other speakers are good as well. I'm going to try and find a review of the Onkyo HT-S9400THX to see how it is as well.


Look for review of Onkyo's past top of the line THX Home Theaters in a Box. All of of them have received rave reviews. If I recall correctly the HT-S990THX was the previous generation of this setup. You'll find lots of positive words on it. As for the pioneers, they look like they might be a safe gamble, but I have my reservations on subwoofers costing less than $500. No less an 8 inch subwoofer costing under $200. Everyone of the subs in this price class sounds boomy, lacks articulation, and bass notes are very hard to distinguish. A good sub should be clear enough to reproduce parts of the human voice, jazz bass, or a cello and not sound like a bomb going off (thuddy).


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

So the speakers on this onkyo would be better if not equal to the speakers i'm looking at now? I know the sub looks nicer, but I just thought the pioneer speakers would be stronger then pre-packaged ones.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Raikugen said:


> I just checked stereophile and they gave the bookshelf speakers good reviews so I'm hoping that means the sub and other speakers are good as well. I'm going to try and find a review of the Onkyo HT-S9400THX to see how it is as well.
> 
> Well I checked and could't find anything from the really good audio sites about the onkyo ht-s9400thx. They gave pretty good reviews of the pioneer ones so I guess I'll just try my luck.



I cant say for sure, I haven't heard those particular speakers. Based on my past experience with cheap pioneer stuff, But I am fairly confident the Onkyo's 12" subwoofer (size isnt everything) will be better than the one from Pioneer and the main left/right will _"possibly"_ be better than the Pioneers. 

To sum it up: If I were in Vegas and bet money on it, the wager would be on the Onkyo._ But if for some reason you have your heart set on the Pioneer's, then go for it_; but look elsewhere for a sub. Velodyne (USED DSP model  ) and Paradigm are two good places to start.


Addendum:
One way of thinking of this is.
To buy a ford Explorer will cost you $30K at the dealer. To buy all the parts separately and assemble it your self will cost you $80K (or more). The name Onkyo in Japanese is derived from two other words: Sound and Harmony. The HTIB lives up to that name because the speakers and receiver work together in harmony to make great sound.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

What about the receiver though would you think I would be better off with the 9400THX?


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Raikugen said:


> What about the receiver though would you think I would be better off with the 9400THX?


Given your tight budget, I think the Onkyo Home Theater in a Box would be the best thing anyone could do with out blowing a few credit cards. The receiver will be sufficient and suitable for your needs and I would recommend it over a bundled BOSE system costing $2,000-3,000.

Also, when buying Onkyo buy from an authorized dealer. Doing so will ensure that Onkyo (or any other MFGR with a Dealer Network) will honor your warranty and that you are getting a genuine article. B&H Photo is one and they have a good deal on this unit right now (sale?). Just add it to your cart to see the price. 


Disclosure: I don't work for Onkyo or B&H. Or any other electronics company for that matter.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

I see and don't worry you don't need a disclaimer or anything man I'm glad you heard these speakers before and know there good though. I just wish there was someway I could compare the speakers. : / I read about the receiver for the 9400thx and its a slightly downgraded onkyo 609 receiver it has like one less HDMI port or something. But thank you for all your help at least I know that the onkyo is a good purchase. As for buying I'll probably get the system from accessories4less.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Raikugen said:


> I see and don't worry you don't need a disclaimer or anything man I'm glad you heard these speakers before and know there good though. I just wish there was someway I could compare the speakers. : / I read about the receiver for the 9400thx and its a slightly downgraded onkyo 609 receiver it has like one less HDMI port or something. But thank you for all your help at least I know that the onkyo is a good purchase. As for buying I'll probably get the system from accessories4less.


You can make up for the lost HDMI Port by adding an HDMI version 1.4 Switch. Also note, not all HDMI switches are the same. 

Accesoriesforless.com is selling refurbished which is basically the same as used. There's no telling if the set you are buying is going to be complete with all the parts and pieces inside or has a small problem waiting to ripen. But if you don't mind risking your warranty, go for it. Personally, I'd shell out a few extra bucks to buy new from a reputable dealer and a company who will accept an exchange or return. 




Add it to the cart, you will see a lower price that is close to your budget.* A little more searching of the dealers might reveal an even lower price. I checked only a few of them, J&R has it for $699*, if you use amazon check out, you _might_ get free shipping (on orders over $25 per amazon policy).
http://www.jr.com/onkyo/pe/ONK_HTS9400THX/
http://onkyousa.com/showdealers.cfm?class=Systems&m=HT-S9400THX


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

8086 said:


> Y
> Accesoriesforless.com is selling refurbished which is basically the same as used. There's no telling if the set you are buying is going to be complete with all the parts and pieces inside or has a small problem waiting to ripen. But if you don't mind risking your warranty, go for it. Personally, I'd shell out a few extra bucks to buy new from a reputable dealer and a company who will accept an exchange or return.


This is very incorrect,
Accessories4less is a very reputable dealer everything they sell are fully inspected and tested and unless otherwise listed in new condition with all parts and come with a one year warrantee You can also buy an extra two year warrantee from them at minimal cost. Accessories4less also has great customer service and return policy.
Some "refurbished" receivers have never even seen the light of day outside of the factory are B stock or as you may have seen brand new last years models.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Yeah, I was told about accessories4less from this site and I actually emailed there customer service asking some questions they are a very good company. However, I'm still just at a loss about the whole HTIB thing vs the Pioneer speakers I want to get does anyone have any idea on how I could compare them?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Im still thinking you should go with the Pioneer speakers or other brand and get an Onkyo 709. HTIB receivers are just not very future proof. I do agree that the Onkyo system is a good one and uses real speakers and receiver but still in my opinion a lesser deal than the 709.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Hypothetically if I got the Onkyo 609 which is practically the same one as the receiver that comes with the onkyo ht-s9400thx. Do you believe the pioneer speakers and the onkyo 609 receiver would still be the better choice or do you believe the HTIB would be better?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

It would be about the same and a big improvement over what you had.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

So I suppose I should go with the pioneers with the 709 then since the pioneers are just as good if not better and I will still have another two speaker slots I can buy to upgrade to 7.1 correct?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yes, That would be my choice given your budget.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Alright I'll order the 709 and the Pioneers then. I don't know what it is I just have a good feeling about the Pioneer speakers I just think I'll like them better than the Onkyo's. Don't know why it's probably just the avoid the home theater in a box syndrome I developed. But I appreciate everyone's help and it's nice to know that going with the onkyo would have even been a great choice as well.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> This is very incorrect,
> Accessories4less is a very reputable dealer everything they sell are fully inspected and tested and unless otherwise listed in new condition with all parts and come with a one year warrantee You can also buy an extra two year warrantee from them at minimal cost. Accessories4less also has great customer service and return policy.
> Some "refurbished" receivers have never even seen the light of day outside of the factory are B stock or as you may have seen brand new last years models.


Yes, tehy have a reputation. But J&R is selling the same system brand new for few dollars more with out any question on its condition. We dont know if it is B stock or a defect repair, nor do we really want to buy it sight unseen for almost the same price. An extended warrenty will end up making this refurbished system cost teh same (or more) as a new one. I used to have a Sony factory outlet nearby selling refurbished wares and I would buy something there (at a good price), half of my refurbished purchases would fail after 90-180 days. I was lucky they would refund or replace but that isnt always the case with every brand or store.

I realize home most theaters in a box are about as exciting as logitech speaker, but Onkyo doesnt make your your typical HTIB made of cheap plastic and lowly speakers with a flashy appearance. I've been cheking these Onkyo HTIB sytems out since around 2001 and they have consistantly delivered high value and superb performance. 
Basically, Onkyo's HTIB is a Corvette in a race against more expensive import sports cars with the same or lesser level of performance.

J&R offers a 30 day return and refund policy, so if you try the Onkyo and are dissattisfied with them, then there's little or no loss to you.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Its no matter now anyhow as he is going with the 709 and the Pioneer speakers, a much better choice. I agree with what your saying about the price as long as dealing with J&R is a good choice? Have you dealt with them?


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Its no matter now anyhow as he is going with the 709 and the Pioneer speakers, a much better choice. I agree with what your saying about the price as long as dealing with J&R is a good choice? Have you dealt with them?


For small purchaces. But never done a return. They've been around long before we had interenet in our homes. 

What ever his decision, make sure newegg or who he buys from will accpet an open box return. Buying speakers sight unseen is a rather risky proposition. He should head off to a retailer or dealer and listen to them in person; it could save a lot of headache in the long run.

If he doesnt like it, I have see Onkyo's past generation THX HTIB sell for $500-600 with very compettive bidding (I was looking for one for my gaming computer).


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Newegg has a 30 day return policy and they also have warranties I could get for each speaker set for only about $9.99 for a year. Even if the Onkyo was $699, I could get the better receiver and the Pioneers for $800 all the speakers would be new, and the receiver would be refurbished with a one year warranty. Stererophile said they were great speakers and plenty of people gave them positive reviews as well. Even so, thank you for your help and the recommendations, but given that I could get a bigger upgrade for just $100 more it just makes more sense to go for the onkyo 709 and the pioneers.

I'm extremely excited to get my new system, since its primarily going to be for gaming and movies. Halo 4 is going to be amazing on this system!!!


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Raikugen said:


> Newegg has a 30 day return policy and they also have warranties I could get for each speaker set for only about $9.99 for a year. Even if the Onkyo was $699, I could get the better receiver and the Pioneers for $800 all the speakers would be new, and the receiver would be refurbished with a one year warranty. Stererophile said they were great speakers and plenty of people gave them positive reviews as well. Even so, thank you for your help and the recommendations, but given that I could get a bigger upgrade for just $100 more it just makes more sense to go for the onkyo 709 and the pioneers.
> 
> I'm extremely excited to get my new system, since its primarily going to be for gaming and movies. Halo 4 is going to be amazing on this system!!!


Do you have a link to the Stereophile review? I might try a pair of those Pioneer speakers. At one time (1990s) Pioneer made all their speaker parts in house which puts them in a rare club of manufacturers that do that sort of thing, I don't know if they still that way today or if it's been outsourced to china. Paradigm is another company which does 100% of its own manufacturing, most others rely on a small handful of companies to do their voice coild windings, baskets, cones, etc. So I'd expect very good quality control. However if you ever get a chance to hear an Onkyo THX HTIB, do check it out; it breaks all the rules.

Enjoy your new purchase and welcome to the world of higher fidelity!


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Amazon has the bookshelfs for $72, less then newegg and bestbuy. 

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS21-LR-Watt-2-Way-Speaker/dp/B004MEWZE4
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_i=B004MEWZE4


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Here is the review link. http://www.stereophile.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs41-lr-loudspeaker

As for the pricing difference between amazon and newegg if you enter the promotional code underneath the name of the product they give you a significant discount. The discount alone brings the bookshelf speakers down to $50 a pair. The promotion does go off March 8th though. They also give you 3 day UPS shipping free and you could buy extended warranties for the product starting at $9.99 at the checkout.

Apparently these speakers were designed by Andrew Jones as well who appears to have significant standing among audio enthusiasts. Not sure if this helps answer anything you were unsure of about their quality, but the only thing I have heard bad about them is there size. However, I always enjoyed a larger speaker even though it is just a cosmetic thing I feel like it gives it more oomph.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Raikugen said:


> Here is the review link. http://www.stereophile.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs41-lr-loudspeaker
> 
> As for the pricing difference between amazon and newegg if you enter the promotional code underneath the name of the product they give you a significant discount. The discount alone brings the bookshelf speakers down to $50 a pair. The promotion does go off March 8th though. They also give you 3 day UPS shipping free and you could buy extended warranties for the product starting at $9.99 at the checkout.
> 
> Apparently these speakers were designed by Andrew Jones as well who appears to have significant standing among audio enthusiasts. Not sure if this helps answer anything you were unsure of about their quality, but the only thing I have heard bad about them is there size. However, I always enjoyed a larger speaker even though it is just a cosmetic thing I feel like it gives it more oomph.




I have a set of Paradigm Mini-Monitors which are the bigger brother to the Atoms. After reading that review, I think i'm heading off to Best Buy tomorrow to audition these speakers. Seems like a nice setup. If all goes well, I might just hop on the $50 bandwagon before the newegg special ends. 

There is some truth to larger speakers having better sound and it's not just cosmetic. Larger speakers allow for deeper bass and more air movement.

I've come aross one negative about the Pioneer Speakers: these puppies have low power handling capability; be easy on the power. Feed them too much energy and you burn up the voice coils. A 100-110w receiver should be run at roughly 50-55% power. I'd check out the full tower version of these for your front left and right, they dont cost much more and can more power than the bookshelf version, up to 130w (continuous). As for surrounds, the bookshelfs should be safe since the front 3 channels do 90% of the audio work and surrounds dont get a whole lot of signal action allowing them plenty of time to cool off after a short burst of volume (peak power handling).

I'm sure it's of little intrest at this point but to anyone else reading this forum thread. newegg has a better deal than J&R on the Onkyo THX setup, factoring in the final cost. And for some reason, I didnt see it listed in my google search.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

I am getting two of the large floorstanding speakers and two bookshelves along with the central speaker and sub. I heard that turning them up too much would create some distortion, but in all honestly I don't think I'm going to get that high yet so as long as they deliver a good sound and give me a cinematic experience I don't need volume thats going to heard around the neighborhood. Besides my poor Z-5500 I turn the thing up to only 4 notches and I already notice clarity loss and thats out of 20 notches. : /


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The major difference in terms of Audyssey implementation is that the 609 offers 2EQ which is the entry level and does not apply filtering/EQ to the Subwoofer whereas the 709 moves 2 steps up to MultEQ XT where the Subwoofer benefits from the most filtering/EQ when the Speakers are crossed over to 80hz. MultEQ is the step up from 2EQ.
Cheers,
JJ


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Raikugen said:


> I am getting two of the large floorstanding speakers and two bookshelves along with the central speaker and sub. I heard that turning them up too much would create some distortion, but in all honestly I don't think I'm going to get that high yet so as long as they deliver a good sound and give me a cinematic experience I don't need volume thats going to heard around the neighborhood. Besides my poor Z-5500 I turn the thing up to only 4 notches and I already notice clarity loss and thats out of 20 notches. : /


I checked thoise pioneers out at Best Buy today. They are an interesting animal. _Nice stereo imaging (soundstage)_, clean bass but not plentiful, okay trebble (better than the other $100 speakers, but not $250); but it doesnt have the mid-bass vocal capability of my Paradigms. I'd call these speakers, the jack of all trades but master of none. It didn't have the trebble clairty of the kilpsch next to it. Nor did it have the vocals of the Polks in the same general price range. 

I'll be sticking with my mini-monitors. But they are a tempting buy, at $50 I dont think there's many speakers that can do what these Pionners can do. My local Best Buy didn't have the subwoofer on hand, so i cant comment.


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## Raikugen (Jul 6, 2011)

Thank you 8086, it's nice to know these speakers are good all around. I appreciate the help and I didn't expect these speakers to be perfect. Honestly, I think I would have been hard pressed to find a better deal for what I got. I only paid $299 with all the promotional discounts, and the speakers where normally $540 for all of them. Nevertheless, you have been a great help I appreciate your help. I have a feeling I am going to be extremely impressed and it's all thanks to everyone here on hometheatershack. Thank you again everyone! :T


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