# New avr or amp/preamp



## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

I want to replace my Pioneer VSX-84TXSi receiver. I use it as a pre/pro as I have a Emotiva XPA-3 powering my LCR with the Pioneer powering the surrounds. I really like the Emotiva. This is the first separate amp I have owned and it has really made a huge difference. 
I can either replace the avr or add an XPA-5 plus a prepro.

Since the new equipment will power only the surrounds does it make sense to go with separates or upgrade the avr?

My budget is $1,500 cdn.
Speaker setup is 7.2 as follows:

SVS MTS -01 mains
MCS-01 centre channel
MBS-01 side surrounds
MBS-01 rear surrounds
PB=13 Ultras (2) subs

Dedicated Theater 3300 cubic feet


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

You will get allot more bang for your buck if you buy an AVR that has pre outs. Onkyo has some stellar units priced below what you are willing to spend and you can use some of the internal amps for the surround channels and use your Emotiva XPA-3 to power the mains and centre. This Onkyo 5007 would do the job very well and comes with THX certification, Audyssey DSX and a plethora of features that you will not get in a pre-pro. The 5007 is very future proof and would last you many years without the need to upgrade.

EDIT: SHoot your here in Canada so we dont get that great pricing  as they dont ship here This Onkyo 1008is the best I could find its a slightly lower model but newer and still has all the features the other one had.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Hi Tony

Yeah thats what I have noticed with the prepros they don't have the feature list compared to the typical avr. I want the Audyssey Eq. I have been using MCACC with the Pioneer but I like that Audyssey can sample up to 8 room locations (dong this myself) My AS-EQ1 has Audyssey and it has made a huge difference to the PBUltras performance. Also looking for THX , latest surround formats and the potential to add 2 more channels. So the 1008 is a good candidate.


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## eyecatcher127 (May 9, 2006)

In addition to the Onkyo, I would also recommend checking out the Marantz SR7005/AV7005


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I would take Tony's route:T. Marantz would also be an exellent choice.:sn:


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

I'd add the XPA-5 and a UMC-1 w/&100 Emobucks. $709 + $699 -$100 + free shipping = $98 under budget and includes :hsd:, :bigsmile:, :T
or you could add the XPA-5 and use your current Pioneer with it's pre-outs and save $699 :dontknow:


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Ben the Marantz also looks good but out of my budget range considering both the amp and processor


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Mark
I am considering the XPA-5. I have the XPA-3 and really happy with it. My Pioneer is used as the prepro for the surrounds. I read somewhere that there are/were performance issues with the UMC-1 plus it lacks some of the features compared with an avr. Can someone tell me why avrs have more features then prepros? I suspect that if I find a prepro with the same features as the typical avr the price point would be well outside my budget.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Dwight Angus said:


> Mark
> Can someone tell me why avrs have more features then prepros?


AVRs out sell pre pros at least ten to one if not more so the cost of building and designing them is offset by sheer volume of sales.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Dwight Angus said:


> Mark
> I am considering the XPA-5. I have the XPA-3 and really happy with it. My Pioneer is used as the prepro for the surrounds. I read somewhere that there are/were performance issues with the UMC-1 plus it lacks some of the features compared with an avr. Can someone tell me why avrs have more features then prepros? I suspect that if I find a prepro with the same features as the typical avr the price point would be well outside my budget.


Are you running more than 4 surrounds? With 4 I'd expect the receiver to do fine unless you have a pro-audio level surround in mind.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Canadian dollar seems to be doing well. This time of year I would probably talke to the wife and kids since they can never figure out what to get me for xmas they can chip in so I could spring for the Marantz 7005 and the extra Emo amp...


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Tony that makes alot of sense regarding sales volume so given my price point and features list I should just narrow my focus to only avrs. 

From a performance perspective does Onkyo 1008 outperform the competition? I know Pioneer has the ICE amps and from what I read they perform very well . How does Onkyo match up? I wanted the Audyssey EQ but if Pioneer (SC35) has better performance its maybe a trade off ie better performance but with MCACC


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

lsiberian said:


> Are you running more than 4 surrounds? With 4 I'd expect the receiver to do fine unless you have a pro-audio level surround in mind.


I am running 4 surrounds SVS MBS-01's. Currently the Pioneer is powering the surrounds


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## eyecatcher127 (May 9, 2006)

I was considering the Emotiva, Onkyo and Marantz, I decided to go with the Denon AVR-3311CI and use it as a preamp, the 4311CI is very nice as well in addition to the AVR-A100. The 4311 and A100 both have Audyssey Multeq-XT32 which I would love to have. But I couldn't justify the cost on my budget. the 3311 has Multeq-xt.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Dwight Angus said:


> Tony that makes alot of sense regarding sales volume so given my price point and features list I should just narrow my focus to only avrs.
> 
> From a performance perspective does Onkyo 1008 outperform the competition? I know Pioneer has the ICE amps and from what I read they perform very well . How does Onkyo match up? I wanted the Audyssey EQ but if Pioneer (SC35) has better performance its maybe a trade off ie better performance but with MCACC


Audyssey is regarded to be the best at what it does and I have not heard much about the ICE amps so I do wonder if they are as good as Pioneer touts them to be. For your needs the Onkyo 1008 would be more than enough receiver. You wold not be using the majority of the built in amps anyhow so thats not really an issue. Bang for buck Onkyo has over the last several years been tough to beat. I have an Onkyo 805 thats now going on 3 years old and it still runs fantastic and I push it hard at times as my room is large and I have big speakers all the way around.
Yes I would focus on AVRs instead of a pre-pro as you just get more for your money.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> AVRs out sell pre pros at least ten to one if not more so the cost of building and designing them is offset by sheer volume of sales.


Tony the 1008 has Audyssey multi eq. I have the AS-EQ1 so I want to make sure there is no redundancy regarding sub filters. If there is redundancy perhaps a avr with a compatible level of Audyssey is more appropriate. I do not know alot about Audyssey as you can probably tell by reading this as I used MCACC for many years. The other option is to get the best Audyssey I can afford and ignore the redundancy.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The AS-EQ1 only does the sub output so having both in operation is not an issue at all as the MultiEQ will also do the main speakers.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> The AS-EQ1 only does the sub output so having both in operation is not an issue at all as the MultiEQ will also do the main speakers.


SO Audyssey in the avr would be filter neautral when it comes to the subs as it would read the sub output at flat (eq'd by as-eq1)


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

For that kind of money you could also get the Pioneer SC-37, provided someone down here is willing to ship it to you. I'd look into it as that is an incredible AVR and really tough to beat.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Dave Upton said:


> For that kind of money you could also get the Pioneer SC-37, provided someone down here is willing to ship it to you. I'd look into it as that is an incredible AVR and really tough to beat.


I agree the SC-37 is a great avr however not having Audyssey is a deal breaker for me . I have used MCACC for years but want to move to Audyssey. My PB13 ultras sound amazing with the AS-EQ1. If I can get this type of result for my mains /surrounds I would be a happy camper.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Dwight Angus said:


> SO Audyssey in the avr would be filter neautral when it comes to the subs as it would read the sub output at flat (eq'd by as-eq1)


No, however it does not filter very much on the sub channel and would probably make it even better than it is now.


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

Just a thought....do you know if there are any 1007's still out there? I have one and it has MultEQ-XT and Im running an ASEQ with dual PBU's as well. Not sure but I feel the 1007 was and still is a of a deal and it has plenty of power to push surrounds if need be. Im running Onix Rockets 450's x 4 and a RS 200 with mine and it seems to do very well.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Tufelhundin said:


> Just a thought....do you know if there are any 1007's still out there? I have one and it has MultEQ-XT and Im running an ASEQ with dual PBU's as well. Not sure but I feel the 1007 was and still is a of a deal and it has plenty of power to push surrounds if need be. Im running Onix Rockets 450's x 4 and a RS 200 with mine and it seems to do very well.


Not aware of any 1007's out there. I am leaning towards the 1008. It has MultEQ. I am however trying to make a case to my better half for the 3008. The jury still out on that one. Did you EQ with the AS-Eq1 first and then Audyssey? SVS told me that was the way to integrate the two. If I manage to get the 3008 I am assuming the AS-EQ1 will also integrate with MultEQ-XT32 
How do you like the dual PBU's? Amazing right?


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

Dwight Angus said:


> Not aware of any 1007's out there. I am leaning towards the 1008. It has MultEQ. I am however trying to make a case to my better half for the 3008. The jury still out on that one. Did you EQ with the AS-Eq1 first and then Audyssey? SVS told me that was the way to integrate the two. If I manage to get the 3008 I am assuming the AS-EQ1 will also integrate with MultEQ-XT32
> How do you like the dual PBU's? Amazing right?



A 3008 would be awesome! But if you could find an xx07 you may be able to save some cash. As for the ASEQ, yes I run it 1st then the AVR, totally backwards of their instruction manual but after talking to my fellow Devil Dog "Doug McBride" told me this was "the" way to do it.

I just moved back to Italy this past Summer and my basement is 100% concrete and as of this time there is no treatment, just an empty room and I ran my ASEQ tonight in 9 locations then followed those same locations with REW and a cal mic and and came out with attached avg. Note: I forgot to run the rear left location, so I only ran 8 of the 9 locations but never the less...fairly flat for a concrete bunker, I did not run MultEQ on the AVR and all Eq settings on the avr are off.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Tufelhundin said:


> A 3008 would be awesome! But if you could find an xx07 you may be able to save some cash. As for the ASEQ, yes I run it 1st then the AVR, totally backwards of their instruction manual but after talking to my fellow Devil Dog "Doug McBride" told me this was "the" way to do it.
> 
> I just moved back to Italy this past Summer and my basement is 100% concrete and as of this time there is no treatment, just an empty room and I ran my ASEQ tonight in 9 locations then followed those same locations with REW and a cal mic and and came out with attached avg. Note: I forgot to run the rear left location, so I only ran 8 of the 9 locations but never the less...fairly flat for a concrete bunker, I did not run MultEQ on the AVR and all Eq settings on the avr are off.


Where are the PB Ultras's located in the room? What are the room dimensions? Thats awfully good for an untreated concrete room.

I have not yet tried REW with AS-EQ1 but the EQ certifcate says its relatively flat.
I am hoping Audyssey MultEQ can make my mains /surrounds as good as the subs with AS-EQ1. 

BTW my wife is Italian we hope to make it to Italy next year. Where in Italy are you


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

Dwight Angus said:


> Where are the PB Ultras's located in the room? What are the room dimensions? Thats awfully good for an untreated concrete room.
> 
> I have not yet tried REW with AS-EQ1 but the EQ certifcate says its relatively flat.
> I am hoping Audyssey MultEQ can make my mains /surrounds as good as the subs with AS-EQ1.
> ...


Well, I am fortunate that I have a huge basement and can do what ever i want with it. The basement is 36'L x 25'w x 7'8"H. There is a 12'L x 1'W wall running length wise in the center of the room. We have a bunch of 4'w x 2'd x 6'h wooden wall lockers. I filled the wall lockers with clothes and filled all of my speaker boxes with linens and stacked them on top of the wall lockers "guidance via bpape" and I used the wall lockers to create a smaller 25'7"L x 12'w x 7'8" listening area.

I placed my subs centered front and rear wall and my listening position is 116" from the back wall (38%). I was very shocked at when I ran REW tonight. Hopefully this tax season I will be able to order a bunch of GIK from bpape since they deliver from the UK and get this theater rolling.

I have only used MultEQ-XT and it was incredible with my setup in the States.


As for Italy, I'm fortunate that my wife is in the Air Force and we are located at Aviano Airbase, it's located in the NE corner of the boot. Funny thing is, we are both from NE Louisiana....NE corner of that boot as well. This is our second tour here in the past 6 years....and we love it.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Tufelhundin said:


> Well, I am fortunate that I have a huge basement and can do what ever i want with it. The basement is 36'L x 25'w x 7'8"H. There is a 12'L x 1'W wall running length wise in the center of the room. We have a bunch of 4'w x 2'd x 6'h wooden wall lockers. I filled the wall lockers with clothes and filled all of my speaker boxes with linens and stacked them on top of the wall lockers "guidance via bpape" and I used the wall lockers to create a smaller 25'7"L x 12'w x 7'8" listening area.
> 
> I placed my subs centered front and rear wall and my listening position is 116" from the back wall (38%). I was very shocked at when I ran REW tonight. Hopefully this tax season I will be able to order a bunch of GIK from bpape since they deliver from the UK and get this theater rolling.
> 
> ...


My HT is about the size of your smaller listening area. Mine is 25'L x 16'W x 8'. I built a riser for the 2nd row of seats but I built it too small and should have extended it out further to accommodate the sub in the centre of the rear wall. Right now I have both subs centred on the front wall under the screen. My front row of seats is about 38% from the back wall as well.

I will make sure with whatever avr I buy it will have MultEQ-XT. From the reviews I have read it sounds like it makes a huge difference. 

I am glad things are working for you in Italy. It sounds like a great place. We hope to get there soon.


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

Dwight Angus said:


> My HT is about the size of your smaller listening area. Mine is 25'L x 16'W x 8'. I built a riser for the 2nd row of seats but I built it too small and should have extended it out further to accommodate the sub in the centre of the rear wall. Right now I have both subs centred on the front wall under the screen. My front row of seats is about 38% from the back wall as well.
> 
> I will make sure with whatever avr I buy it will have MultEQ-XT. From the reviews I have read it sounds like it makes a huge difference.
> 
> I am glad things are working for you in Italy. It sounds like a great place. We hope to get there soon.


 I moved my subs to the front wall and set them 1/3 from the side walls and ran a few sweeps as well. It was peakier "is this even a word?" and had more extension down low. The graph shows a single sub, then duals up front. 










Then I ran sweep with them front and back centered on the wall, I ran one sweep with both subs at 0 degrees phase then both at 180. I chose the front and back location due to the smoother response. 










These responses were not averages, they were taken in the sweet spot "38% from rear wall center left/right".

On another note....first thing I did when I moved here was bought a hand truck, my back hasn't hurt yet.:T:rofl:

I also plan to build a riser for back seating and Im going to get a set of SVS SSS for side surrounds so I can have a 7.2 since I have the room. Looking to get an external amp as well, most likely will be a Sunfire Cinema Grand or the newer TGA, one of the main reasons for choosing the Sunfire is weight due to shipping over here.:spend:


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Tufelhundin said:


> I moved my subs to the front wall and set them 1/3 from the side walls and ran a few sweeps as well. It was peakier "is this even a word?" and had more extension down low. The graph shows a single sub, then duals up front.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An external amp makes a huge difference. I use a Emotiva XPA-3 to power my mains and central central channel. What a difference. I hear alot more detail and movie dialogue is alot clearer. Not familiar with Sunfire but the Cinema Grand looks like a great amp


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## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

Dwight Angus said:


> Not aware of any 1007's out there.


Accessories4Less (ships to US only, though) still has some factory refurb Onkyo TX-NR1007's for $650. This is quite a deal.

Regards,
sga2


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Tufelhundin said:


> Just a thought....do you know if there are any 1007's still out there?


Yup, Accsseories4less has some here and a very decent price as well.


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

sga2 said:


> Accessories4Less (ships to US only, though) still has some factory refurb Onkyo TX-NR1007's for $650. This is quite a deal.
> 
> Regards,
> sga2


NO doubt it is!

Dang....note to self: next time you get an itch to upgrade...wait.:hissyfit:


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## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

Tufelhundin said:


> NO doubt it is!
> 
> Dang....note to self: next time you get an itch to upgrade...wait.:hissyfit:


We'd all be waiting forever in that case. Though, I feel your pain as I bought the 3007 from a4l about 3 months ago for $100 more than it's going price today. But I saves SOOOO much money compared to other shops that I can't really complain. Maybe I'll give this to my son for his birthday next year and upgrade then...

sga2


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

sga2 said:


> Accessories4Less (ships to US only, though) still has some factory refurb Onkyo TX-NR1007's for $650. This is quite a deal.
> 
> Regards,
> sga2


Do a4l ship to Canada? When I key in my location it does give a shipping charge (albeit a hefty one something like $120. It appears they do ship here or am i missing something?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

sadly no they do not ship any Onkyo products to Canada however they do ship other products. Onkyo has some sort of restriction in place preventing them from shipping outside the US and that really sucks as they have such great deals.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> sadly no they do not ship any Onkyo products to Canada however they do ship other products. Onkyo has some sort of restriction in place preventing them from shipping outside the US and that really sucks as they have such great deals.


There prices are amazing even with the shipping costs. Thanks Tony my search continues. I want a good price seems avrs become tecnologically obsolete very quickly so I don't want to spend top dollar only to regret it 6 months later


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

if you have a friend in the US you could get him to buy it for you and then he can ship it up here.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

sga2 said:


> We'd all be waiting forever in that case. Though, I feel your pain as I bought the 3007 from a4l about 3 months ago for $100 more than it's going price today. But I saves SOOOO much money compared to other shops that I can't really complain. Maybe I'll give this to my son for his birthday next year and upgrade then...
> 
> sga2


I definitely have a case of upgraditis. I wish I had more leverage as I just upgraded my entire speaker system a year ago and its a tough sell to my wife


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

My thoughts only... but if one is not into 3D or planning to be in the near future, then an AVR with Pre-outs, MultEQ-XT, and a hefty amp would be my priority, and there are quite a few of those from the past couple of years that can be had for a great deal now days.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Tufelhundin said:


> My thoughts only... but if one is not into 3D or planning to be in the near future, then an AVR with Pre-outs, MultEQ-XT, and a hefty amp would be my priority, and there are quite a few of those from the past couple of years that can be had for a great deal now days.


Not sure where 3D is going. For me its probably 5 years away if at all.. The avr feature list would include your list plus all the latest surround formats, THX & HQV 1080p upconversion


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

Dwight Angus said:


> Not sure where 3D is going. For me its probably 5 years away if at all.. The avr feature list would include your list plus all the latest surround formats, THX & HQV 1080p upconversion


my 1007 has the THX, but I let my Oppo do everything video wise. That was one of the main reasons I chose the 1007 over the 3007 is because I knew I wouldnt use the better video chip in the 3007. I plan to eventually use the 1007 as a pre.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Tufelhundin said:


> my 1007 has the THX, but I let my Oppo do everything video wise. That was one of the main reasons I chose the 1007 over the 3007 is because I knew I wouldnt use the better video chip in the 3007. I plan to eventually use the 1007 as a pre.


Which does the better job upconverting using avr HQV or Oppo Anchor Bay VRS?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

HQV has been said to be the best but I highly doubt that you wold be able to tell the difference between any of them. For BluRay playback non of this is important its only if you have to upconvert that these come into play.


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

Thanks for the above for I have no idea what is better....all I know is that I have zero complaints on my Oppo performance with DVD's, BR's and CD's,SACD, DVDA's.... other than my PBU's its probably the best $$$ I have spent.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> HQV has been said to be the best but I highly doubt that you wold be able to tell the difference between any of them. For BluRay playback non of this is important its only if you have to upconvert that these come into play.


Yeah I was interested in upconverting DVD's to 1080p. I suspect that Tony is correct in that the difference is probably negligible regardless of what product you use. Its a non issue with BD.


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