# Subwoofer Breaking In



## Emuc64

Hi All,

I just got an Outlaw LFM-1 Plus. So I know that there are two schools of thought on breaking in speakers. Mainly those who think it's not true and those who do. Does this divide also apply to subwoofers?

Secondarily , this question only applies to those who believe in it. How do I properly break in a subwoofer? The crossover is probably going to be set at 80hz. So should I avoid any THX low frequency type tests until I watch tons of movies at moderate levels?

Thanks,
H


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## dyohn

IMO the best way to "break in" any loudspeaker is to use it. Play it the way you want to use it right out of the box, it will not break. Yes, its performance will change subtly over time, for the better or the worse is a subjective question. But there is no harm you can do by just going for it.


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## tonyvdb

I agree, Break in will change how it sounds however just use it as you normally would.


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## Emuc64

Hello dyohn & tonyvdb,

Thanks very much for alleviating my concerns. Being new and all, I didn’t want to prematurely kill a $500 sub. That’s a lot of money. So, I’ll do as you both suggest and play it normally.

Many thanks,
H


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## Jon Liu

I am on the side of "believer of break-in". I believe it applies to essentially all electronics and components, so your subwoofer would definitely be included in that.

You will be alright to use the subwoofer like normal, including calibration test tones. Test tones in general, in and out of 'break-in' time should be used in moderation especially as the frequencies go lower. Sustained frequencies can stress the subwoofer too much if done for longer periods of times.


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## recruit

Every subwoofer will have a run in period and therefore I would make sure that it is run in before serious calibrating is done, yes initially you will calibrate but once the driver has loosened up then a recalibration will be required, an easy way to monitor this is to look at the response once new, then after run in you will more than likely see it has more depth/deeper response than initially tested...


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## Moonfly

There is another way to break a sub driver in. It will speed things up a little but care will be needed. You can play a very low frequency tone constantly. Start with low volume and monitor driver excursion, then just leave it running, after a couple hours or so you can up the volume a little to allow more excursion and further run the driver in. Using a very low frequency tone means you dont really hear it, so you can just leave it running.

It will help speed up the run in process if your a little impatient. Just dont go silly with the volume at first, slowly work it up to a good 'exercise' level. After a day or two you should be very nicely run in.


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## glaufman

Another agreement. You can use it as normal. There is a concept of infant mortality in electronics, but many MFRs "burn-in" the electronics portion at the factory, so the customers don't see this. That may not apply to the driver, which isn't at risk.


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## DougMac

I subscribe to the school of break-in by normal use. When I bought my Ascends for my HT, I feel that after about two weeks of use they sounded better than straight out of the box. Did they "loosen up" or did I become acclimated to their sound? Who knows. I do know my son, who heard them right out of the box, then a couple of weeks later, asked me what I did to make them sound better. ;-)

I do believe in infant mortality. I keep new electronics on constantly for a few weeks. While manufacturers might do a burn in, I doubt it's for more than 24 hours or so. That probably weeds out almost all units that will fail.

If I was to use a test tone for break-in, it would be white or pink noise. 

Enjoy your new sub!


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## lsiberian

You are right there is a break in, but a better way to understand it is that break in is for the hearer not the speaker. Just like beer is an acquired taste so are speakers. This is because no perfect speaker exist. As a result we must adjust to the flaws of our new ones. 

Playing the speaker while you are out is good if you want to scare of any potential robbers, but won't help the speakers. Remember we design speakers based on the driver put in it from the factory. 

Mechanical speaker driver break in is proven to be myth in every experiment I've seen. Still it's speakers not vaccines so the myth isn't critical to dispel.


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## recruit

lsiberian said:


> You are right there is a break in, but a better way to understand it is that break in is for the hearer not the speaker. Just like beer is an acquired taste so are speakers. This is because no perfect speaker exist. As a result we must adjust to the flaws of our new ones.
> 
> Playing the speaker while you are out is good if you want to scare of any potential robbers, but won't help the speakers. Remember we design speakers based on the driver put in it from the factory.
> 
> Mechanical speaker driver break in is proven to be myth in every experiment I've seen. Still it's speakers not vaccines so the myth isn't critical to dispel.


I can agree with that in some aspects as it does take time for you to adjust to different sounds just like anything in life, but there is also a physical break in time when it comes to speakers, an example I can give is when I bought the SVS PB13 Ultra and first calibrated via a Velodyne SMS-1 the response dropped off quite quickly at 20hz in 15hz tuned mode but after a couple of weeks use I then recalibrated the PB13 and the response looked most certainly different indeed with greater output below 20hz and tailed off more gently...


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## Moonfly

lsiberian said:


> Mechanical speaker driver break in is proven to be myth in every experiment I've seen.


In what respects?

I know the rubber surrounds of large subwoofer drivers are tighter when new, and loosen up over the first couple weeks or so. Tighter surrounds + less excursion + less depth. Basically, I'm agreeing recruit.

However, thinking about the voice coil, its pretty all solid metal parts and I find it hard to imagine what might change over the first couple weeks of use here.


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## dyohn

Why do these threads always turn into a fight between true-believers and non-believers? It really is not necessary.

As a long-time loudspeaker designer I can categorically state that most driver's Qms does change over time, and as an engineer I can categorically state that it is impossible for this change to be predicted, nor for it to "improve the sound" or to "improve the performance" of all drivers. In some it might, in some it doesn't. if you "believe" it helps, then so be it. Beliefs by definition do not require proof. 

Arguments about the mechanical science behind loudspeaker design is really silly. Let it go, boys.


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## tonyvdb

dyohn said:


> As a long-time loudspeaker designer I can categorically state that most driver's Qms does change over time, and as an engineer I can categorically state that it is impossible for this change to be predicted, nor for it to "improve the sound" or to "improve the performance" of all drivers. In some it might, in some it doesn't. if you "believe" it helps, then so be it. Beliefs by definition do not require proof.
> 
> Arguments about the mechanical science behind loudspeaker design is really silly. Let it go, boys.


Agreed:T Even the manufacturers of speakers and subs state clearly in their manuals that driver breakin will change the dynamics of how they sound.


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## Moonfly

dyohn said:


> Why do these threads always turn into a fight between true-believers and non-believers? It really is not necessary.
> 
> As a long-time loudspeaker designer I can categorically state that most driver's Qms does change over time, and as an engineer I can categorically state that it is impossible for this change to be predicted, nor for it to "improve the sound" or to "improve the performance" of all drivers. In some it might, in some it doesn't. if you "believe" it helps, then so be it. Beliefs by definition do not require proof.
> 
> Arguments about the mechanical science behind loudspeaker design is really silly. Let it go, boys.


:bigsmile:, I like your POV. I cant argue with your logic, it is sound. 

However, I believe a sub woofer to be slightly different to a loudseaker. The mechanical properties of the VC's are probably pretty much the same in a speaker and sub, but the driver is not. Subs are larger, and they rely on driver displacement and excursion to go low. Rubber as a material also differs to what is used in VC's. Its tighter when new and unused and loosens up to its natural level slowly over time. This changes the sound because of the change in the movement of air that directly affects the low end performance.

IMO, the change in movement of a smaller, much lower excursion lower power driver makes the eventual change in bass performance smaller in a standard speaker, and especially so in a bass managed system. Other parts of the sound I cant say I usually notice that much of a difference in, but the sub bass regions and lower mid bass regions always do, and its always measurable in my experience.


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## Emuc64

Hi,

Sorry, I didn't mean to make this into a believer/non-believer segment.

That said, if I were to take it easy and play it normally (regardless of whether it'd break in or not break-in the sub) would the THX intros in movies qualify as abnormal?

Meaning, does it put as much strain on the subwoofer/speakers as something played that's more of a test tone category or home theater (audio) calibration disc?

If so, I'd totally mute the Blu-ray/DVD during those intros for the time being. Uh.. just in case I believed in the breaking-in period.

Thanks,
H


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## DougMac

Emuc64 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry, I didn't mean to make this into a believer/non-believer segment.
> 
> That said, if I were to take it easy and play it normally (regardless of whether it'd break in or not break-in the sub) would the THX intros in movies qualify as abnormal?
> 
> Thanks,
> H


*You* didn't make it into an argument. It's just the nature of forums. ;-)

THX intros are (IMHO) pretty much a gentle frequency sweep, nothing abnormal are harmful there. 

I'll go out on a limb and state that whatever side of the fence folks here find themselves regarding break-in, they'd pretty much agree it's not about preventing damage to a new speaker, it's about the effect on the sound. *If* there is any change in sound, by breaking in you're only accelerating a normal process.

In other words, use your sub normally from day 1 with the assurance you'll do no harm.

Here's some interesting reading with some measurements to back up the arguement:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction


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## glaufman

DougMac said:


> THX intros are (IMHO) pretty much a gentle frequency sweep,


Disagree. they're a bit more complex than that. I don't have the details. THX claims they actually spent over a year designing the sound. But then again, I HAVE drunk they're koolaid... :bigsmile:


> nothing abnormal are harmful there.


Agreed.


> I'll go out on a limb and state that whatever side of the fence folks here find themselves regarding break-in, they'd pretty much agree it's not about preventing damage to a new speaker, it's about the effect on the sound. *If* there is any change in sound, by breaking in you're only accelerating a normal process.
> 
> In other words, use your sub normally from day 1 with the assurance you'll do no harm.


Agreed.


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## lsiberian

dyohn said:


> Why do these threads always turn into a fight between true-believers and non-believers? It really is not necessary.
> 
> As a long-time loudspeaker designer I can categorically state that most driver's Qms does change over time, and as an engineer I can categorically state that it is impossible for this change to be predicted, nor for it to "improve the sound" or to "improve the performance" of all drivers. In some it might, in some it doesn't. if you "believe" it helps, then so be it. Beliefs by definition do not require proof.
> 
> Arguments about the mechanical science behind loudspeaker design is really silly. Let it go, boys.


Argument is fun for some of us. I personally enjoy a good debate. Even if the sides never agree. I hadn't seen anyone name calling or anything. :R I love to debate or argue it's what keeps me going some days.


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## DougMac

glaufman said:


> Disagree. they're a bit more complex than that. I don't have the details. THX claims they actually spent over a year designing the sound. But then again, I HAVE drunk they're koolaid... :bigsmile:


Thanks for your response. It led me to watch a number of their trailers. The "Amazing Life" trailer is especially impressive. I did not mean to minimize the artistic or technical expertise expended by THX, I was trying to offer assurance that they contained no harmful audio.

I just love showing movies that start with a THX trailer to friends who have never seen my or any other home theater. When the sound washes over them their jaws just drop, especially since my sub in situ measures pretty much flat to 17 hz. There's a lot of content you feel more than hear.

I have a friend who thought she was the cat's meow because she dropped a wad on speakers at the local big box. She and her husband came over an watched "The Dark Knight" with us. I wasn't trying to show her up, but at the end of the evening she remarked: "Now I have a *serious* case of speaker envy!"


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## tonyvdb

DougMac said:


> Thanks for your response. It led me to watch a number of their trailers. The "Amazing Life" trailer is especially impressive. I did not mean to minimize the artistic or technical expertise expended by THX, I was trying to offer assurance that they contained no harmful audio.
> 
> I just love showing movies that start with a THX trailer to friends who have never seen my or any other home theater. When the sound washes over them their jaws just drop, especially since my sub in situ measures pretty much flat to 17 hz. There's a lot of content you feel more than hear.


I love the THX trailers I would even go so far as to go out and buy (if available) all of them on a BluRay because they are so much fun to watch and hear. I have a DVD of a few of the older ones but BluRay audio has raised up the bar.


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## lsiberian

tonyvdb said:


> I love the THX trailers I would even go so far as to go out and buy (if available) all of them on a BluRay because they are so much fun to watch and hear. I have a DVD of a few of the older ones but BluRay audio has raised up the bar.


Yeah what is interesting to me is the double blind test shows on several tracks no difference when level matched between dvd and bluray. Still the audio masters seem to have raised the bar of mastering quality. 

I just wish music would switch to blu-ray and give us the full dynamic range.


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## glaufman

lsiberian said:


> Argument is fun for some of us. I personally enjoy a good debate. Even if the sides never agree. I hadn't seen anyone name calling or anything. :R I love to debate or argue it's what keeps me going some days.


I enjoy a good debate as well. When it turns to an argument, well, I don't enjoy that as much. I don't remember who said it, but ...
"'tis better to debate a topic whilst coming to no conclusion than to reach a conclusion having not debated"
Or something like that...


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## glaufman

DougMac said:


> I just love showing movies that start with a THX trailer to friends who have never seen my or any other home theater. When the sound washes over them their jaws just drop, especially since my sub in situ measures pretty much flat to 17 hz. There's a lot of content you feel more than hear.


Me too. It may interest you to know they actually gave that last sweep a name... they call it "Deep Note"..

I seem to remember seeing someone here had generated a waterfall of it... perhaps someone more enterprising than myself could find it (or generate a new one)...


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## Moonfly

I think personally I would put break in down like this. If it exists as a phenomenon, then using your new kit WILL make it happen as a matter of course, so you need not worry about it, just let it happen. If it doesnt exist, then it doesnt matter either way.

I guess you could just play it safe, as you would a new car. Use your kit with care at first for peace of mind and away you go


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## lsiberian

Moonfly said:


> I think personally I would put break in down like this. If it exists as a phenomenon, then using your new kit WILL make it happen as a matter of course, so you need not worry about it, just let it happen. If it doesnt exist, then it doesnt matter either way.
> 
> I guess you could just play it safe, as you would a new car. Use your kit with care at first for peace of mind and away you go


Get the best speaker/subwoofers you can and then break em in with your favorite movies, CDs, beverages and snack food. If you do that I guarantee you stuff will sound better. :T:bigsmile:

If it doesn't just pm me and I'll give you the address to ship it too. :R


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## dyohn

Moonfly said:


> However, I believe a sub woofer to be slightly different to a loudseaker.


?? A subwoofer *IS* a loudspeaker... yes it is larger and designed for higher linear excursion than other loudspeakers, but it works in exactly the same way as any other dynamic driver and is subject to the exact same laws of physics. I understand how you could think if them differently because the parts are larger, but all dynamic diaphragm drivers really are the same things, with the only differences being that different types are optimized to operate over different frequency bands.


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## DougMac

Moonfly said:


> I guess you could just play it safe, as you would a new car.


Nothing over 110, db or mph.


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## dyohn

Wide open right out of the box will not harm a subwoofer. Don't worry about it (but don't clip your amplifier!)


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## Moonfly

dyohn said:


> ?? A subwoofer *IS* a loudspeaker...


I think you know where I was coming from lol.




> yes it is larger and designed for higher linear excursion than other loudspeakers, but it works in exactly the same way as any other dynamic driver and is subject to the exact same laws of physics. I understand how you could think if them differently because the parts are larger, but all dynamic diaphragm drivers really are the same things, with the only differences being that different types are optimized to operate over different frequency bands.


Ignoring the fact that sometimes the smaller sub are designed for more excursion of course.

Lets say as standard all speakers loosen by 20% between brand new and full run in. Is that 20% the same for a 5" mid driver as it is for an 18" sub driver? Of course, I assume that loosening of the driver is the only variable affecting driver run in, but for arguments sake?


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## dyohn

Well, I'm not trying to argue with you just to clear up a few misconceptions. There really is no such thing as "loosening up" a driver. Yes, the surround can become a little more compliant (although some will stiffen and become less compliant) but there is no way any driver will change by 20%, unless it was very poorly designed to begin with. 2% or 3% is much more likely, and like I said originally this change might result in a net positive or a net negative result.


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## Moonfly

Well the figure was just for figures sake. I do think the bass of any speaker improves over the first few weeks, and in mind mind that can only be due to loosening up of the driver. What ever the reason, I do think things change over the initial period, but whether that is the case or placebo, I agree nothing special needs to be done.


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## lsiberian

placebo is a very powerful and helpful thing actually. It always gets a bad rap when it really shouldn't. I mean consider the fact that most cars perform similarly. But I'd rather driver the nicer looking one or the classic.


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## Emuc64

tonyvdb said:


> I love the THX trailers I would even go so far as to go out and buy (if available) all of them on a BluRay because they are so much fun to watch and hear. I have a DVD of a few of the older ones but BluRay audio has raised up the bar.


Hi,

It seems that there are some THX Demo Discs out there. Unfortunately, all on DVD and I'm not sure where you're supposed to get them. I agree, a bluray disc would be nice. Funny thing is my fiance's father blew out his 15 year old floor standers replaying THX demos when he was home alone one time. Everyone else had gone out to do some post-holiday shopping. 

Here's what I found on the DVD's. They seem to be from a European site, so I'm not sure if that applies to the US at all.
THX Demo Disc II
THX Surround EX
THX Ultimate Demo

H


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## glaufman

I think I have Demo II... got it after taking they're course...

Blew out his speakers? Sheesh... maybe was running them hot at low levels set to full range, not knowing how much they'd struggle when given some real hardcore content?


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## tonyvdb

I sent THX an email this afternoon about making the trailers available to the public on BluRay so we will see what sort of response I get.


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## Emuc64

glaufman said:


> I think I have Demo II... got it after taking they're course...
> 
> Blew out his speakers? Sheesh... maybe was running them hot at low levels set to full range, not knowing how much they'd struggle when given some real hardcore content?



Hi,

Yeah, I didn't bring up details or try to dissect what happened. He seemed a little embarrassed about the whole thing and his family ribbed on him a little with comments like "Can't leave you alone for a few hours, can we?"

Of course he used that as an excuse to buy two new floor standers. And those sound better than his old set. So in the end everyone was happy.

In retrospect, I wish I did figure out what went wrong. If only to learn from his mistakes and not do something like that myself. 

H


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## glaufman

They might respond with something akin to "They're already on movies you buy/rent"...


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## glaufman

Emuc64 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yeah, I didn't bring up details or try to dissect what happened. He seemed a little embarrassed about the whole thing and his family ribbed on him a little with comments like "Can't leave you alone for a few hours, can we?"
> 
> Of course he used that as an excuse to buy two new floor standers. And those sound better than his old set. So in the end everyone was happy.
> 
> In retrospect, I wish I did figure out what went wrong. If only to learn from his mistakes and not do something like that myself.
> 
> H


Tell, you what, while you're learning from his mistake, I'm going to learn from his success...
HE GOT EVERYONE TO AGREE TO A NEW SET OF SPEAKERS! Crafty little guy...:devil:


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## Emuc64

glaufman said:


> Tell, you what, while you're learning from his mistake, I'm going to learn from his success...
> HE GOT EVERYONE TO AGREE TO A NEW SET OF SPEAKERS! Crafty little guy...:devil:



Hello,

Well, we all still laugh about it from time to time. Actually, every time the THX demo comes on. And they rent LOTS of movies. So let's just say he still hasn't lived it down yet.

So, if you can live with that kind of teasing for the rest of your life, I'm sure you can get new speakers too. :innocent:

H


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## glaufman

Ah well, I'm not bucking for new speakers right now anyway... I got a sub on my list...


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## tonyvdb

glaufman said:


> They might respond with something akin to "They're already on movies you buy/rent"...


Yes but Look at what Disney/Pixar did They put together a Bluray of all the animated shorts they did from the very first "lamp" to the last one they did in 2007. I own it.


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## recruit

tonyvdb said:


> I sent THX an email this afternoon about making the trailers available to the public on BluRay so we will see what sort of response I get.


This site has a lot of demos to download HD and even THX also http://www.demo-world.eu/trailers/


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## glaufman

OK. I'm a little embarassed now. This link is to where you can download wmv's of THX trailers from THX themselves (so there's no question of rights) and also a brief bio of "Deep Note"

http://www.thx.com/cinema/trailers.html


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## Jon Liu

Sadly, one of the only ones that I am really interested in has never been available for download and I only saw it in the theaters. It was a THX trailer that included just a bunch of sound clips from different movies. I really liked that one, but I've never seen it available for download or even released on any home videos.


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## Moonfly

Ive never even heard of that one, or seen it :scratch:

There is another one I really like, though its not a THX one. Its the Dolby one with the helicopter flying down to a big neon vertical Dolby sign out side of a cinema, the lights light up one at a time with a satisfying thud. The whole sequence is a nice dynamic audio sweep :T


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## recruit

Moonfly said:


> Ive never even heard of that one, or seen it :scratch:
> 
> There is another one I really like, though its not a THX one. Its the Dolby one with the helicopter flying down to a big neon vertical Dolby sign out side of a cinema, the lights light up one at a time with a satisfying thud. The whole sequence is a nice dynamic audio sweep :T


I actually have that Dolby Demo Disc, with all the older DD demos..


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## Jon Liu

Yeah, the THX trailer that I was referring to only had a short limited run and as I said it never made it to video releases.


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## tonyvdb

tonyvdb said:


> I sent THX an email this afternoon about making the trailers available to the public on BluRay so we will see what sort of response I get.


Well, I receiverd a reply this is what they said;

_Hi Tony,

Thank you for your interest in THX.


Currently, our team is working on an upcoming release of a THX Blu-ray HDTV Installer Disc. It will contain a new version of the THX HD-Optimizer, more advanced test patterns for Professional Installers, as well as some THX Trailers. The rollout date is still unknown, but we’re hoping to have it ready by early 2010. In the past these discs were only made available to partners, dealers, reps, etc. As you probably know, they weren’t made for sale to the general public.

At this point, I am unclear what it’s availability will be.

In the meantime, I’d suggest subscribing to the THX Newsletter, or following us on Twitter at “THX_Training”, if you wish to keep up to date as more information becomes available.

Here are the links for your convenience:

http://www.thx.com/company/newsletter.html

http://twitter.com/thx_training

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Regards,



Ryan Hennigan
THX Ltd. _


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## tonyvdb

Jon Liu said:


> Sadly, one of the only ones that I am really interested in has never been available for download and I only saw it in the theaters. It was a THX trailer that included just a bunch of sound clips from different movies. I really liked that one, but I've never seen it available for download or even released on any home videos.


I have that one on a DVD that is full of DD trailers as well as DTS trailers it is a Lukas film Trailler with all the movie clips from Starwars, Indiana Jones and a bunch more. Its about 8min long


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## Emuc64

tonyvdb said:


> Well, I receiverd a reply this is what they said;
> 
> _Hi Tony,
> "...In the past these discs were only made available to partners, dealers, reps, etc. As you probably know, they weren’t made for sale to the general public..."_


_


Hi,

That's good that they're putting together something that's new. I went on the website and there seems to be training that took place in California, upcoming Netherlands, then Florida. The training costs money. So how do I, as an average Joe, get those THX demo discs without taking part in THX certifications? 

I'm also interested in BluRay demos. Sure I have movies, but if I have a quick demo disc that shows just awesome HD movie scenes, nature scenes, - that'd be cool. The only ones I don't really like are the ones that show the split screen "DVD" vs bluray pictures. It just seems hokey. While I'm on a mini-rant, why do DVDs have advertisements for bluray? It's not like you can see the difference coming from a DVD. It seems silly.

H_


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## Moonfly

Emuc64 said:


> While I'm on a mini-rant, why do DVDs have advertisements for bluray? It's not like you can see the difference coming from a DVD. It seems silly.
> 
> H


I hear you on that one!, its like someone saying, here have a listen of the tape recording of how good cd's sound :coocoo:


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## glaufman

Emuc64 said:


> So how do I, as an average Joe, get those THX demo discs without taking part in THX certifications?H


You might try scouring the used marketplace for discs sold by people who've been through the training but thin kthey have no use for the discs...
Or download'em and burn'em...


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## Jon Liu

Tony, the THX trailer I am talking about is actually not a bunch of movie clips it's just sound clips from different movies with the THX logo on screen the entire time. It's only the length of a typical THX introduction, also. I wish I could find it!


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