# Att: All Yamaha Owners!!!



## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

Hi all Yamaha Owners try this with your amp

You need full range front speakers!

Set your amp to use both Front & Sub and the sub cross over at 80Hz.

Play a Movie like Lord of the rings with lots of bass. Now switch your sub off & play the same track & hear how little bass goes to your fronts!!

Now set your amp to play bass only through your fronts & hear the difference!!

Why does Yamaha not allow bass through the sub & fronts.

Your feed back I look forward to!

I have a Yamaha RXV 1400 and have hated this for years - used the front pre outs to my sub for best bass response.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

I am not really clear on what you are saying, but Yamaha works no differently than most other AVRs in this regard. If you want the bass to go to your front speakers set them to large.

Please clarify your post and be more clear about where you feel you are losing bass.


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

If you set the Yamaha to large front speakers & then set the amp to use both the sub & mains - what ever you set the cross over at it passes to the sub & not the fronts.

You don't get full range on the fronts.

If you have a yahama try it


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

erasma said:


> If you set the Yamaha to large front speakers & then set the amp to use both the sub & mains - what ever you set the cross over at it passes to the sub & not the fronts.
> 
> You don't get full range on the fronts.
> 
> If you have a yahama try it


That's really odd ....:scratch:

I own the RXV-2700, I used REW to calibrate the system ...I did what you're suggesting and got the graphs to compare each response :yes:

At least my AVR worked fine, I got the response right with every setup...but the final and best setup in my HT was sending the bass output to sub (not sub and mains) and front speakers set to large.

I'm sure that when you said:" set the amp to use both sub and mains" you mean ...set up the bass output to mains/fronts and sub, Right???


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

salvasol said:


> At least my AVR worked fine, I got the response right with every setup...but the final and best setup in my HT was sending the bass output to sub (not sub and mains) and front speakers set to large.
> 
> I'm sure that when you said:" set the amp to use both sub and mains" you mean ...set up the bass output to mains/fronts and sub, Right???


How did that work? just setting the bass to the sub? did you get full range on the fronts? 

I found the disc & why it is setup or recorded could be the main issue

IronMan BluRay - very little to no bass on my fronts - sub works over time!!! Faithless music DVD main go so low makes windows rattle!!

Yea if you set - bass output to mains/fronts and sub.

I hate the fact the the LFE channel can not be sent to the fronts & sub!!!


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

erasma said:


> How did that work? just setting the bass to the sub? did you get full range on the fronts?


If you set your fronts to LARGE....yes.



> I found the disc & why it is setup or recorded could be the main issue


That's true ...there's some DVD's/CD's that don't have a lot of bass.



> IronMan BluRay - very little to no bass on my fronts - sub works over time!!! Faithless music DVD main go so low makes windows rattle!!


Check your settings ...Did you set to fronts as Large???



> I hate the fact the the LFE channel can not be sent to the fronts & sub!!!


:unbelievable: ....I'm sure you missed this part on the manual (Pag 50 LFE/Bass Out), you have the option to send that signal to SWFR, Fronts or Both; like I said, after comparing those settings using REW, the best response (in my case) was sending that signal to SWFR and fronts sets as Large.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

What Bluray/DVD player are you using? Some like my Samsung have settings for the speaker levels in its menu as well. Dubble check your BluRay player to make sure that you dont have the speakers set to "small" in that menu as then it would not matter what your receiver is doing the BlyRay player wont alow the lows to go to the mains.


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

With your Yamaha does your sub work when playing a cd or just your fronts?

Been playing around some more & the manual says clearly if you have large it sends bass to the fronts - but LFE to the LFE channel, does not send LFE to the fronts - only if you sellect small does it merge both and sends bass & LFE to the Sub!!

seems when discs are recorded they meant for subs! 

check my pics out of my system - I use my HTPC using multi in.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-gallery/18299-my-home-theater-setup.html

If I play a cd nothing goes to the sub all bass goes to the fronts.

I think the best bass result is to choose large fronts only & run the sub off the fronts and tell the amp one has no sub. I wonder if it would send the LFE to the fronts??

what you need to do to test is put your sub on & off & hear the differenec - but you need to know how low your front's go - they need to at least go to 30 Hz to really understand.


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

salvasol said:


> best response (in my case) was sending that signal to SWFR and fronts sets as Large.


What did you use as a test disk??

Take any movie with lots of Base - DTS sound track & try the same thing - turn the sub off & see if you can hear how much bass you don't get! if you got full range speakers you should hear how much is cut off not sent to them - with your settings.

once you tried with the movie, play in stereo some low bass stuff - music "PCM" and then hear how low your speakers play. with no sub!

let me know how it goes


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

erasma said:


> With your Yamaha does your sub work when playing a cd or just your fronts?


Depends on the mode I use...if I choose Straight the sub doesn't get a lot of signal; but when I choose Stereo or enhanced stereo is different (A lot of bass).



> ...the manual says clearly if you have large it sends bass to the fronts - but LFE to the LFE channel, does not send LFE to the fronts - only if you sellect small does it merge both and sends bass & LFE to the Sub!!


If you set the speakers as Large (fronts in this case), yes, they will get the full signal, but if any speaker is set to small (front, center, surrounds) the AVR will redirect the signal below the crossover point of that speaker to the designated bass output (SWFR, FRONTS or BOTH).

So, if you want the fronts to also play the LFE signal, you need to set the bass output on the AVR to either Front or Both (if you want SWFR and Fronts).



> If I play a cd nothing goes to the sub all bass goes to the fronts.


Try different modes (I use 7 Channel enhanced).



> I think the best bass result is to choose large fronts only & run the sub off the fronts and tell the amp one has no sub. I wonder if it would send the LFE to the fronts??


If you set the AVR to send the bass output to the front ...it will.



> what you need to do to test is put your sub on & off & hear the difference - but you need to know how low your front's go - they need to at least go to 30 Hz to really understand.


Believe me, I've done some testing/playing with the speakers and subs :yes:...my fronts go down to 35Hz and my Silo sub to 10Hz???


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

Here is the manual - have a read! see they very clear about the LFE channel

using both - uses LFE which is sent to the sub makes sense - just suxs if you don't have a great sub



See the cross over lowest is 40Hz which is not low - my fronts go down to 25Hz!!!!

thats the issue!


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

erasma said:


> What did you use as a test disk??


I have DVE...but I'm not sure if you're familiar with our REW program; that's what I used to measure the response of every speaker and the whole HT system; here is link in case you want to play with it http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/



> Take any movie with lots of Base - DTS sound track & try the same thing ...


You mean....War of the Worlds, Transformers, U-571, Finding Nemo (Tala tap the tank), Master and Commander...to mention a few???

I did some test with those movies, my reference volume level was set at -5.0db; I used the volume at -20.0db and SPL on hand I played some chapters on those movies....my readings where between 106db and 115db; I can't imagine playing them at reference levels :scared:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I think I know what your problem is PC sound cards have a built in filter that rolls off the lows to the main channels and this can not be disabled. If all your media is passed through your PC first this would explain why your having this issue.


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

LOL

I believe in feeling the music!!! I play my stuff as loud as it can go!

4 x Cerwin 15" which play loud with 10 watts & I use 400 watts into each channel!!

But it's the control not how loud it goes that I enjoy - you can feel the bass it's alittle over the top!!! 

one can never have to much power!! ever


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> I think I know what your problem is PC sound cards have a built in filter that rolls off the lows to the main channels and this can not be disabled. If all your media is passed through your PC first this would explain why your having this issue.


No it's an Yamaha issue check the manual out with the cross over - that can't be changed! it's hard coded.

My pc runs full range, it does the same with my PS3

also playing music in 7 channel is really not great!

A sub is also for music with low Hz's - it's silly to use an amp cross over subs have them built in why not let the sub do the work??? or make it full on the fronts & cross over only affect the LFE channel!!


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

erasma said:


> Here is the manual - have a read! see they very clear about the LFE channel
> 
> using both - uses LFE which is sent to the sub makes sense - just suxs if you don't have a great sub.
> 
> ...


What subs are you using???....if they can't play the low hertz you need new ones.

LFE is present mostly in DVD's not in CD's....if I were you I use the different memories on your AVR to set different settings; one for movies and another for music (that's what I have now, memory 1 in Straight mode for movies and for music (radio or CD) memory 2 in 7 channel enhanced).

If your speakers go down to 25Hz, I set them as large forget about the 40Hz crossover...:yes:


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

I have a cerwin 15" Sub & a mordaunt Short Sub Performance 9

The Performance 9 is really good - fast bass & moves lots of air!

They both great & good.

just would be nice to have full control of what signal goes where!! not happy that my fronts are not used for low bass! I got the power & speakers for it.

& I can't afford another Mordaunt Short sub now!

Hay are there projects on how to make a transducer?


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

salvasol said:


> If your speakers go down to 25Hz, I set them as large forget about the 40Hz crossover...:yes:


oh if you use a sub you don't have a choice have to use the cross over!

hay try set your cross over to 200 Hz see what you get out your fronts


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

erasma said:


> ...also playing music in 7 channel is really not great!


Do you have 7 channel enhanced??? ...try it.

Music won't play that great if the source was not mastered right (I have some CD's that sound really good and other bad).



> A sub is also for music with low Hz's - it's silly to use an amp cross over subs have them built in why not let the sub do the work??? or make it full on the fronts & cross over only affect the LFE channel!!


To let the sub do the crossover work use the speaker terminals to connect the sub to AVR (don't use sub out/LFE), then connect the speakers through the sub and set the AVR to send the signal to front speakers full range and bass output to fronts.

What do you mean: "...crossover only affect the LFE channel"???


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

I agree about cd quality 

I am an old Krell Boy with Ruark Speakers them where the days 

What I do it set my source to stereo & then tell it to play on 5.1 which is "7 channel stereo"

I am saying that the Yamaha cross over affects the mains & LFE, try it set your Yamaha cross over to 200Hz 

What they should have done is made fronts get "full" range and the cross over only affect the LFE channel


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

salvasol said:


> To let the sub do the crossover work use the speaker terminals to connect the sub to AVR (don't use sub out/LFE), then connect the speakers through the sub and set the AVR to send the signal to front speakers full range and bass output to fronts.


And thats what my post is about - how one does not get "full" range to your fronts if you say bass to both fronts & sub.

what you suggest is the only way to do it.

Yamaha need to fix it & allow us to chosse how we want to setup the system.


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

erasma said:


> just would be nice to have full control of what signal goes where!! not happy that my fronts are not used for low bass! I got the power & speakers for it.


If you want full control....I think you need an outboard crossover.

Why is that your front are not used for low bass??? ....check your settings, if you set the AVR to send full signal you will get the bass in the fronts too.



> oh if you use a sub you don't have a choice have to use the cross over!


Isn't the crossover to control what frequencies are transfered to the sub when a speakers is set to small??? ...I don't think it applies to full range, Right???



> What I do it set my source to stereo & then tell it to play on 5.1 which is "7 channel stereo"


Nope...two different animals.

5.1 will get part of the stereo signal and play it in the center and surround speakers; and 7 channel stereo will play the whole signal (look for the 7ch stereo on your remote or AVR).



> I am saying that the Yamaha cross over affects the mains & LFE, try it set your Yamaha cross over to 200Hz


Again. I t will affect all speakers set to small only ...if the speaker is set as large, crossover won't have any effect.


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

LOL

... read the cross over manual again  above - it says all low Feq

does not matter how you set the speakers - take 5 min & try on your yamaha amp, set the cross over to 200Hz.

I know about the stereo 7 - not how I enjoy music to be honest

the amp does work if you sellect no sub & only have fronts - it send full range to the fronts.

it's when one use's the Sub it's not perfect.

Try what I am saying let me know how it goes


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

erasma said:


> LOL
> ...read the cross over manual again  above - it says all low Feq


Not to make a debate here, even if we have AVR's from same Brand...they're different.

Here is what my manual says (and what I'm doing, apparently your works different).



> *Bass Out (Bass out)*
> • Select “Both” (both) if you connected a subwoofer.
> *The low-frequency signals of any source are output
> from the subwoofer. The LFE signals as well as the
> ...


and 



> *Bass Cross Over (Bass cross over)*
> *Use this feature to select the crossover frequency of all the
> speakers set to “Small” or to “None” *in “Speaker Set” (see
> pages 105 and 106). *All frequencies below the selected
> ...


Hope this helps....


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

Are we still friends???? :bigsmile:


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Salvasol is correct in his description of how Yamaha units work and how most AVRs work. I have set up many and they have been consistent. What some folks forget is that once you decode, there is likely not much bass content in a pure L & R channel. The bass will be in the LFE.


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

We still friends of course 

Do you think they changed it? seems your manual is different to mine! 

I have to use the cross over & as such it a nightmare!

What Yamaha do you have? seems i might need an upgrade!!!


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

I still don't understand what you are talking about. I have a copy of the RXV1400 manual and it seems completely consistent with what he is explaining, with the sections of his manual that he copied, and with my experience.


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

hmmm

Okay so let me start over.

it seems that if one has full range speakers & a disc is recorded to use the LFE channel - one can't send the LFE info to the front speakers.

am I right in saying that? one can only send LFE info to the fronts if one does not have a sub sellected correct?

Thats my issue - I have front speakers that can handle some LFE range.
40Hzs is not that low for some front speakers.

the Sub cross over say all Feq below what is sellected is sent to the LFE channel, & the lowest one can sellect is 40Hz.

There are two parts to this.

One is do you have a full range speakers and a sub?
if you have full range speakers & no sub - everything is sent to the fronts including LFE
if you have a sub - LFE is sent to LFE - all the rest is sent to the fronts & that range is decided by the disc.

Then there is a cross over section in the manual that talks about the Bass Feq & if you have a sub, it will send below whatever you sellect to the LFE. there is no mention of full range speakers in that section.

read it out right & draw that is being said.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Actually, there is mention. You can send everything to the mains, except on DD and DTS signals where LFE is specifically encoded. If you select a sub as present, you are correct, LFE goes there only. That is the way that it is supposed to work and the way it works on most AVRs. To have the option of mix the LFE to other channels would be like having the option to send the center to the mains when you have a center channel speaker. The LFE encoded is supposed to be in the subwoofer. If you don't have enough bass when using the sub with LFE encoded material you can adjust the LFE level and you can change your crossover points.

There is nothing unusual about how the Yamaha works in this case. It is the way most work.


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

lcaillo said:


> Actually, there is mention. You can send everything to the mains, except on DD and DTS signals where LFE is specifically encoded. If you select a sub as present, you are correct, LFE goes there only. That is the way that it is supposed to work and the way it works on most AVRs. To have the option of mix the LFE to other channels would be like having the option to send the center to the mains when you have a center channel speaker. The LFE encoded is supposed to be in the subwoofer. If you don't have enough bass when using the sub with LFE encoded material you can adjust the LFE level and you can change your crossover points.
> 
> There is nothing unusual about how the Yamaha works in this case. It is the way most work.


Yes thats correct - you make a good point - my sub does the bass really well - just wanted the fronts to play low as well. but it makes sense.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

You can do that, just not with the LFE channel which is encoded as discrete information. All other sources can be routed to both.


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

I like this forum 

you guys know your stuff - I understand why they do what they do - just not sure I like it that much, think if you have a sub standard SUB but great fronts!

I am lucky I have enough subs to get all the bass I could need!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

If you use pure direct mode you will get full frequency to the main speakers as the sub is disabled (I believe that the Yamaha rxv1400 has this setting) .


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