# Hi! Newbie wanted to upgrade audio receiver to one with HDMI.



## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

Hello all! Nice to see there are forums out there to help people like me with limited knowledge on home theater systems.

Here's my situation: I have a JBL home theater system that's about 10 years old and has no HDMI slots or Ipod/Iphone connectivity. I want to upgrade the JBL reciever with one that has all those new goodies but keep the speakers. Here are my current specifications:


5 Channel Cinema Mode
100W per channel dynamic RMS power
into 8 ohms at 0.08% THD
Plus 100W into 8 ohms at 0.08% THD, 20Hz to 80Hz subwoofer

Question: Do I have to match the wattage for the speakers with the new receiver i.e. 100W speakers to 100W receiver per channel? Or can I go with a receiver that puts out more than 100W per channel? Does going higher in wattage distort the sound or fry the speaker??

Also, it seems that all the receivers I've seen at Best Buy (online) don't have outputs for my subwoofer. Is this because woofers have become obsolete and new receivers are capable of putting out sufficient power for crisp, clear, sound without the need for a subwoofer?

Thanks in advance for all the help.


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

Sadly, only the Home-Theater-In-A-Box have an amp channel for the subwoofer. You can buy aftermarket sub amps (or any high quality monoblock if the new receiver has crossover controls).

It's not that the new receivers are more powerful, it's just that the "typical" setup now is to use a powered subwoofer (self-powered, that is) and the receivers and preamps have RCA outputs for the sub.

For the mains, you don't need an exact match in power, but when in doubt, go bigger. A 200W amp will drive 100W speakers more cleanly. For the most part, distortion and clipping kill speakers, not extra power. Oddly enough, it's usually underpowered amps that damage speakers.

That being said, if you do get a 200W amp, you need some discipline to not crank it all the way up -- that can still damage the speakers.

If you are set on keeping the speakers, I would look at the current crop of receivers and try to budget for a new powered subwoofer to go with it.

Good luck and welcome to the Shack!


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

If I keep the speakers and just buy a receiver only will it matter if I don't buy another subwoofer? Is it necessary to have a subwoofer??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

It really depends on what you want and on what speakers you buy. If you new system has small satellite speakers, you will need a sub no question as they simply dont produce bass. If however your not that bothered about high volumes and nice deep bass, then just putting some nice budget floor standers with the new AVR might keep you more than happy. Whatever the case, a system like this will be considerably better than a HTiB, and even floor standing speakers can produce bass that matches the ability of those kinds of systems.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Welcome to the Shack!

Have a look at this post here as it will help you make a better informed decision on this mater.


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

Moonfly said:


> It really depends on what you want and on what speakers you buy. If you new system has small satellite speakers, you will need a sub no question as they simply dont produce bass. If however your not that bothered about high volumes and nice deep bass, then just putting some nice budget floor standers with the new AVR might keep you more than happy. Whatever the case, a system like this will be considerably better than a HTiB, and even floor standing speakers can produce bass that matches the ability of those kinds of systems.


My current setup has small satellite speakers that sound great! Upgrading the Reciever is all I want to do but all the receivers i've seen so far don't have subwoofer connections on the back. So, I guess my main concern is: do I need to have the subwoofer hooked up? 

From what someone else above said, as long as I match the wattage or go slighly higher than my 100W per channel reciever I should be good to go.

By the way, pardon the ignorance, but what is HTiB?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

HTIB is "Home Theater In a Box" These usually have underpowered receivers with dedicated speaker and component connections. Onkyo is one of the few that actually make decent HTIB systems.
That said, in your case the small satellite speakers wont reproduce the lower frequencies and without a sub will sound very thin and you will over drive them trying to get the sound you are used to. Almost all receivers have sub outputs but they are non powered meaning that your sub must have an amp built in in order to use it.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Chances are the crossover frequency in the HTIB between the sats and, ahem, subwoofer, is slightly unusual. The problem is that your new AVR will be able to power your current sub, but wont be able to manage the upper cut off frequency of the sub as it will think its a speaker if you drive it from the AVRs speaker outputs. Your highly likely to need a new dedicated sub with your new AVR, and as said, the sats will need a sub to accompany them no question. Given the stated range of the sub in your current system though, it looks as though a normal sub will be fine and the crossover is the normal 80hz, although the new AVR will be able to go higher than that and you may actually benefit from that.

Can you post the model number of your current system, we might get lucky and be able to get some detailed info on it and be more accurate with out responses as we're surmising a little based on traditional knowledge.


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

Moonfly said:


> Chances are the crossover frequency in the HTIB between the sats and, ahem, subwoofer, is slightly unusual. The problem is that your new AVR will be able to power your current sub, but wont be able to manage the upper cut off frequency of the sub as it will think its a speaker if you drive it from the AVRs speaker outputs. Your highly likely to need a new dedicated sub with your new AVR, and as said, the sats will need a sub to accompany them no question. Given the stated range of the sub in your current system though, it looks as though a normal sub will be fine and the crossover is the normal 80hz, although the new AVR will be able to go higher than that and you may actually benefit from that.
> 
> Can you post the model number of your current system, we might get lucky and be able to get some detailed info on it and be more accurate with out responses as we're surmising a little based on traditional knowledge.


Man I wish I understood what you guys were talking about. For example, what is crossover frequency? When you say "it looks as though a normal sub will be fine" do you mean a subwoofer that's not powered like mine or one that is self-powered? I've actually had to open up my subwoofer becaue my son would drop his balls and toys down the front hole and when I opened it up I noticed that it's just a big box with un upside down speaker cone. :huh:

I'm sure by now it's become very apparent how little I know about audio systems.

As for you last question: I have a JBL CINEMA PROPACK 600ii which includes the Receiver (DCR600ii) and speaker package (SCS135P). I hope this helps. Let me know if you find out anything with regards to my current setup.

Thanks to all for your help. This has become very educational for me.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

By crossover, we are talking about the point at which 2 speakers responses cross each other, which is expressed as a frequency. The industry standard for subwoofers to speakers is 80hz, and when I say normal I am referring to this. A normal active subwoofers working range is from zero (well 1hz) to 120 hz maximum, with 80 hz being the usual normal limit. Given the subwoofer that comes with your current package is rated from 20hz to 80hz, it suggests you speakers are designed to reached down to 80 hz, so a traditional active subwoofer will in theory work well with those speakers.

Ive had a look at the system, and it looks like a standard HTIB system but there is nothing of major detail Ive found yet. The next question really is, how does you current sub connect to what you have now, via speaker wire or via a phono cable. I'm gonna guess speaker wire, which s the norm for this kind of system, basically meaning its really not going to work with a proper AVR. Good news is that even the most basic active subwoofers are going to improve on what you have now, and an AVR will give you the option to upgrade the speakers as well one day should you decide to improve the system further.

As for your current sub and what you noticed about it being a speaker in a box, thats basically what it is, as opposed to a true subwoofer.

There is one way it could possibly work with your current sub, but its a bit of a guess involving Bi-amping, and I'm reluctant to suggest it. The other in the know will understand what I am talking about, so maybe they will cast their thoughts on that idea.


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

Moonfly said:


> Ive had a look at the system, and it looks like a standard HTIB system but there is nothing of major detail Ive found yet. The next question really is, how does you current sub connect to what you have now, via speaker wire or via a . I'm gonna guess speaker wire, which s the norm for this kind of system, basically meaning its really not going to work with a proper AVR. Good news is that even the most basic active subwoofers are going to improve on what you have now, and an AVR will give you the option to upgrade the speakers one day should you decide to improve the system further.
> 
> As for your current sub and what you noticed about it being a speaker in a box, thats basically what it is, as opposed to a true subwoofer.


Yes, the sub connects to the receiver via speaker wire. So are you saying that this receiver that came with my system is not a true AVR? What would u recommend I do? Currently I have one more input on the back of my reciever to connect a PS3 but I figured if I upgraded I could do away with a lot of those wires utilizing HDMI cable. 
NOw I'm not sure what to do. I'd hate to buy an AVR only to find out my system sounds during DVD playback or normal satellite viewing requiring me to have to spend more money on speakers, subwoofer, etc...


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

OK, from the beginning.

Your current system is designed as a stand alone system. It has a head unit that includes the amplifier to drive the speakers, and the processor, which basically reads your discs or other input devices and tells the amps whats sounds your speakers should play. Its design as a complete stand alone unit to work with the speakers it comes with. They are very good at delivering a small package that will provide a simple and easy to understand system, thats not intrusive into your living environment, and will perform the task you want it to at a very good price.

A true AVR is designed to be a much more complete and professional package, to work with any number of speaker and subwoofer packages. It also can perform many more functions than your standard HTIB systems, as well as provide much much more connectivity.

Now because your current speakers and sub are designed to work only with your current head unit, it makes it difficult to transfer your current speakers to a proper AVR, especially for the sub. An active sub includes its own on board amplifier for maximum performance (your current sub doesnt) which is the industry standard, and an AVR is designed to work with these true subwoofers. Your current sub is designed to run from your current packages head unit, or processor and amplifier (combined) if you will, so does not easily transfer to an AVR for use, which is the problem your going to have here.

Speakers are different, in that they are always powered by the processor/amplifier no matter what system they are connected to, and this includes true AVRs, so transferring the speakers you have now to a new AVR is no problem at all. This is just how speakers work, but true subwoofers differ to this, and in real terms your current subwoofer is classified as neither a speaker or subwoofer, and is essentially defunct in any application other than the one you have it in now I'm afraid.

Hope that helps.


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

That explains a lot. Thanks for the info. I was afraid you were going to tell me that i'd need to upgrade everything which frankly, I don't have the money to do right now. What I can do now is buy a new receiver or AVR. 

Would you suggest I buy a good AVR and test it out on my current speakers first to see how it sounds before proceeding to purchase a seperate sub? Since my speakers are rated at 100W each, how much over that amount can I have my new AVR put out?

Thanks again for the info.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

You can buy absolutely any AVR and it will be completely fine with your speakers, so you need not worry about that. The higher end AVR you buy, then the more you will benefit from any upgrades you make in the future, and the better job it will do with your speakers, plus have better specs. I wouldnt worry about any of that though to be honest. Even an entry level AVR like the Onkyo 307 will be an improvement, especially with a proper subwoofer. Small satellite speakers are generally quit easy to drive, and wont tax the amp inside your new AVR so you really have little to worry about.

What I would do, is set your self a budget, then share it between the AVR and subwoofer. We can help you best do that, and the specs of an AVR will far exceed that of you HTIB. One other thing to consider is that your current system probably has a DVD player built in, and as your only going to continue using the speakers, you will need sources to play your media content. I'm going to assume you already have this covered, but thought I would mention it just in case. Lastly, keep the head unit and sub from your current system, because if you ever do upgrade the speakers, you'll have a complete system again you can sell, or pass down to family, or use in another room etc, and the left over components wont be of any great use anyway.

Normally, when buying a new AVR, we would recommend a demo, but I think the value of a demo would be greatly reduced as you have your speakers set and wont be able to test them, plus the addition of a sub will again alter the sound. Any AVR will at least match what you have now, and this is one of the rare occasions I would actually say its ok to choose a popular brand based on specs.

So, budget?


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

My budget right now is probably an AVR under $500. 

One other question: I currently have a 5.1 system. If I buy an AVR that is rated for 7.1 channel and I only use my 5 speakers, what effects will this produce...if any?

thanks.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

There are very few native 7.1 sound tracks anyway, meaning most 7.1 systems simply use 5.1 mixed into 7 channels. If you only plug in 5 speakers then you will get 5.1 no probs, and if you plug in 7 you get 7.1 simple as that really. There are settings within the AVR to tell it how many speakers are attached, and it will output the audio correctly according to what you set.

Personally, I am a big fan of Onkyo, so my advice would be to look there first and see if 
anything takes your fancy within your budget :T To be honest though, any of the AVR's on the market will be great for you and improve no end on what you have.


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

Thanks so much Moonfly. 

I'm definitely looking at Onkyo's and Pioneers. What are your thoughts on Denon's?

Thanks again for all your help. :clap:


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

Actually I think I have one more question. If my speakers are rated at 8 ohms does whatever AVR I purchase need to output at 8 ohms as well?


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Denons are well received (no pun intended) and certainly very popular, and I also think they are a better looking piece of kit than the Onkyos, in fact they are probably the best looking IMO, but its done to opinion really. Personally, I prefer the sound of the Onkyos to Denons, but that wont translate into anything meaningful for your particular circumstances really.

When it comes to powering, again the modern AVR's are designed to run any and all standard speakers from your standard satellites to bi-wireable 6 ohm tower speakers, so any AVR you buy will power your speakers no problem at all :T FIY, the lower the ohms rating the more difficult the speakers are to drive, so if your AVR is rated to power 4 ohm speakers, then 8 ohm speakers wont be any problem at all. All AVR's will power 6-16 ohm load no probs, and a great many of them will power speakers rated as low as 4 ohms too.


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

Thanks so much for the information and help. I now can take my time shopping around and doing research on what AVR is best for me both in terms of price and characteristics. 

This forum rocks! :yay2:


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

No probs, let us know how you get on :T


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

Moonfly said:


> No probs, let us know how you get on :T


Okay, so I purchased a Pioneer VSX-920-K AVR. ONe of the reasons I purchased it was because it was rated at 110W per channel however, the manual states: 

Power Output: 110W x 7channels (1khz, THD 0.05%@ 8 ohms)
80W + 80W (20hz - 20khz, THD 0.08% @ 8 ohms FTC)

What does this mean????? Is it not really 110W per channel???

Also, I'm thinking of purchasing a powered subwoofer. How do I deteremine what wattage I need? Is 100W enough?


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

The quoted ratings are usually 2 channels driven, and this usually drops when you try drive more than 2 channels. You need not worry about it too much though, all AVR's will drive most speakers very well and to loud levels regardless of actual power ratings. Your amp will drive your chosen speakers no problem at all.

To determine the wattage you need, just look at the ratings of you speakers. Most will say something like 100 watts rated, and this is usually an indication that they will handle 100 watts maximum sustained, but the normal rating would be 20-100 watts. 

To get an idea of max output of your amp, have a look in the specifications in that back of the manual, and see what the maximum power consumption figure is. Divide this by 5 channels and that is a good guide to the normal power your amp will deliver per channel, and typically this will drop further when driving 7 channels. Its not a major concern if max output power drops, as long as the power it does deliver is stable, and that is what these amps are designed to be :T


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

Ok, for this Pioneer it says power consumption is 270Watts. So divided by 5 is 54W. Then a 100W amplifier would be fine for my application?


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

I would estimate then that your Pioneer will output 50-60 watts per channel when running 5 speakers at once (sub not included as it powers itself), which is fine. 100 watt speakers will run fine as long as their ohm rating is within the working range of your amp :T


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

Ok, so I'm golden then. No need to buy a powered subwoofer then. Sweet! 
My speakers are rated at 100W @ 8ohms and the AVR is rated at 8ohms. 

Thank you kind sir! :T


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

You do need a proper powered subwoofer, what I was saying is that a powered subwoofer doesnt put any drain on your amp, because it powers itself and isnt powered by the AVR. If you have large speakers, and arent bothered about sub bass, you can get on fine without a proper sub, but you really would be missing out, a true subwoofer makes a big difference to a system :T


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

Ok, so then based on everything else would a 100W powered subwoofer be just fine for my system?


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

The power of your sub has no bearing on the rest of your system, only its own performance. Any powered sub will integrate with your new system no problem (with some proper setup of course). Obviously the better you buy the better your system will be.


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## hotspaniard (Aug 3, 2010)

I see. Thanks so much for the information. Thank you for your patience educating a non-audioholic like myself.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Thats what we're hear for :T - anytime.


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