# Need Help with Near Field Surround Locations



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Has anyone had to put their surround speakers really close to their main seat(s)? Pro's and Con's would be really helpful and much appreciated! All info/comments welcome! TIA


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

From the few systems I’ve experienced with speakers either right beside or behind the seating, it’s all “con” and no “pro.” The sound is so directional and “in-your-face”-localized that you’re always aware of them, and it’s really distracting. You just can’t get the same “ambience” you have when they are some distance away, where you’re enveloped in the sound. I like my rear speakers to be as far away from the LP is the fronts.

Regards, 
Wayne


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Okay, I'll buy that. I thought you could maybe compensate for closeness by reducing volume, but what you're saying makes more sense. Even if played at lower volume, imaging would still suffer because of misplaced timing queues. It might be interesting to see what an AVR's auto-EQ would do with that.

What you're saying about equidistant surrounds and mains rings a bell. I think those are the preferred locations for multi-channel music, right? Don't movies have a different recommended setup? Just curious what the trade-offs are. People will set up according to their preferences, but I think if your system can do music well then movies will follow.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lou, I totally agree with Wayne. Not necessarily equidistant, but definitely not near field. I think also due to the wave propagation and being that close, no AVR could do anything for that.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Even if played at lower volume, imaging would still suffer because of misplaced timing queues. It might be interesting to see what an AVR's auto-EQ would do with that.


Auto EQ can compensate for timing between speakers that are at different distances. But having the speakers too close to your ears makes a soundstage which is too small. Also speakers have a minimum listening distance for proper imaging between the tweeter and midrange drivers.




BlueRockinLou said:


> I think those are the preferred locations for multi-channel music, right? Don't movies have a different recommended setup?


The speaker locations are the same for music and movies. The difference is where the surround speakers are aimed.

For movies the surround speakers should not be pointed directly at the listener because it's supposed to be more of a diffuse ambience experience, as Wayne noted. The surround speakers are usually aimed straight out and placed slightly above the listeners ears.

Surround music can be mixed in different ways. 
-Some music is mixed so the surround sound is just ambience, like you're sitting in a church and hearing reflections off the church walls, or hearing non descript audience chatter all around you. This calls for difuse surround speaker angling same as movies.
-Some music is mixed with instruments being played discretely from the surround speakers, so those speakers need to be aimed at the listener for best sound quality.

My preference is to aim the surround speakers above the listening position as recommended for movies. It'll still sound good for music.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Okay, seems to be the opposite of the Haas Effect: Humans localize sound based on first waves and late arrivals. Waves within the first 30msec or so are perceived as one sound. Later arrivals are perceived as separate events. As time increases, late arrivals morph through ambience, reverb, and echoes. So it follows that for good ambience and effects, we need surround speakers to launch waves that arrive at least 30msec after those from the mains. Or if we use DSP to fool ourselves, then the AVR's distance settings can be used to "fool" the ear into thinking the surround is further away than it is. Not sure if that would work.

Now I'm curious: How close can we place a surround before it starts to sound unnatural (even when the AVR's max delay is added)?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

gdstupak said:


> ....The speaker locations are the same for music and movies. The difference is where the surround speakers are aimed.
> 
> For movies the surround speakers should not be pointed directly at the listener because it's supposed to be more of a diffuse ambience experience, as Wayne noted. The surround speakers are usually aimed straight out and placed slightly above the listeners ears.
> 
> ...


Never thought to consider it from a mixing perspective. Nice awakening! It also helps explain why a lot of audiophiles turn up their noses at HT: "Not good enough for music," "Needs a different set up, "Not enough properly mixed material." :whistling:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lou. I'm wondering if your comments on the delay for surrounds is goin back to early surround implementations where the information was not discrete, and pulled from the main 2ch track. Discrete information in the surround channels shouldn't be affected by information at the front since they're not tied to each other. Music however (PLII music for example does work the way you described). Fwiw my preference is for direct radiators aimed toward me but hitting above and just behind. I've experimented a lot with placement and this suits my tastes. I do not like diffused type of sound, and I think(you can't hold my feet to the fire on this) sound stage mixing is done with direct radiators. 2more cents is all.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Bi-pole or Di-pole speakers would help if you must put them close to you I've also heard of people putting them on the floor firing up at the ceiling to give a more non directional sound.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> I've also heard of people putting them on the floor firing up at the ceiling to give a more non directional sound.


 I remember one of our members recommending this a few times. Even IF it could work, my brain just won't go there lol.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

_Lou,_

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but didn't see it (there was one mention of sitting on egg crates). Use speaker stands to place the speakers against each wall/closet door. Maybe the stands could be height adjustable so you could experiment with how the speaker aims at the LP. Or before buying stands, use whatever you can to experiment until you find the height of stand you want.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Strrrrrretchhhhhh... Yawwwwwnnnn... Stayed up too late last night planning and typing.
You've probably already guessed this thread is an offshoot of Relocate surrounds (no snickering). I've learned a lot from ALL your replies, and I want to thank each of you for your help! I wouldn't mind hearing more on this topic if anyone would like to contribute, but I also wouldn't want to lead you on into thinking I was seriously pursuing near field surround listening. It was just supposed to be temporary until my new mounts came, but I couldn't wait and opted for overnight shipping (cost as much as the mounts--ouch). I'm on a tight schedule until the family returns, so I'm off to start the project, which you can follow if you like in the thread I just mentioned. I'll check back once in a while to see if anyone has an urgent "WAIT, BUT FIRST!" :run2:



tonyvdb said:


> Bi-pole or Di-pole speakers would help if you must put them close to you I've also heard of people putting them on the floor firing up at the ceiling to give a more non directional sound.


Oh you too, huh? Nice job! Just kidding, I'm immune as Willis already tempted me with a pair of SVS Ultras (...sights and sounds of salivating). :run2::dumbcrazy:



gdstupak said:


> _Lou,_
> Sorry if this has been discussed already, but didn't see it (there was one mention of sitting on egg crates). Use speaker stands to place the speakers against each wall/closet door. Maybe the stands could be height adjustable so you could experiment with how the speaker aims at the LP. Or before buying stands, use whatever you can to experiment until you find the height of stand you want.


And now you, Glenn. Put me in experimental mode, huh? Thanks, now my walls are full of holes where I've moved the surrounds to try out my new mounts (now you can snicker). :heehee:


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Okay, I'll buy that. I thought you could maybe compensate for closeness by reducing volume, but what you're saying makes more sense. Even if played at lower volume, imaging would still suffer because of misplaced timing queues.


As gdstupak mentioned, timing makes a difference. The other issue is EQ. The highs naturally attenuate over distance, and you don’t get that with close-up speakers. So the highs are exaggerated, adding to the localization issue (speakers designed for nearfield use will have the highs rolled down). 

Our bedroom system unavoidably required one of the rear speakers to be placed too close (for my tastes) to the listening position, and I was able to compensate for it by ratcheting down the highs low enough so that the speaker was no longer able to be localized. So you might try that.

Regards, 
Wayne


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

My surround system consists of two Behringer near field monitors placed on the side walls, with the tweeters at 6' above the floor..
The distance between the LP and the speakers is approx. 4' each side..in my small theatre..
The speakers are slightly behind the LP and angled down to point approx. 1' above my head..

I get very good ambient surround sounds forward of the speakers, extending well back behind me..
At the same time I can pinpoint sounds like a gunshot..and with fly overs of a plane or helicopter coming towards me, the sound extends way past the back wall into the distance..

I hope that gives you an idea of an actual near field surround system when positioned correctly..


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

gdstupak said:


> Lou, Sorry if this has been discussed already, but didn't see it (there was one mention of sitting on egg crates). Use speaker stands to place the speakers against each wall/closet door. Maybe the stands could be height adjustable so you could experiment with how the speaker aims at the LP. Or before buying stands, use whatever you can to experiment until you find the height of stand you want.


That was me, only I meant "album crates!" iPad spell checking/correction got me. If the surrounds were on the ends of the crates in the pictures, they'd be close to ear height when seated in the LP. But now I know from the Prof's post that near field monitors are designed to disperse highs and mids differently from a regular speaker.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> As gdstupak mentioned, timing makes a difference. The other issue is EQ. The highs naturally attenuate over distance, and you don&#146;t get that with close-up speakers. So the highs are exaggerated, adding to the localization issue (speakers designed for nearfield use will have the highs rolled down). Our bedroom system unavoidably required one of the rear speakers to be placed too close (for my tastes) to the listening position, and I was able to compensate for it by ratcheting down the highs low enough so that the speaker was no longer able to be localized. So you might try that. Regards, Wayne


Thanks for that different spin, Wayne. I learn something new here almost every day! I wonder what the auto-EQ tools on AVRs out there would do with that kind of proximity. Would they lower surround gain accordingly?

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Prof. said:


> My surround system consists of two Behringer near field monitors placed on the side walls, with the tweeters at 6' above the floor.. The distance between the LP and the speakers is approx. 4' each side..in my small theatre.. The speakers are slightly behind the LP and angled down to point approx. 1' above my head.. I get very good ambient surround sounds forward of the speakers, extending well back behind me.. At the same time I can pinpoint sounds like a gunshot..and with fly overs of a plane or helicopter coming towards me, the sound extends way past the back wall into the distance.. I hope that gives you an idea of an actual near field surround system when positioned correctly..


Congrats on your excellent results! I can imagine the detailed work you went through. You say this is your small HT--is your LP directly on the back wall? You motivate me to keep at it until I'm ducking, too!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

I should have added that it's not only the positioning of the surround speakers that gives you good surround sound, it's also the acoustic treatments in the room that aid in producing a realistic surround sound..

I'm using a combination of absorbers, reflectors and diffusers..Without these it would not give me the same effect..
Prior to these treatments is was pretty much front sound and back sound..nothing in between..

I have a single row of seats which are positioned approx. 3' from the back wall..You need this sort of distance from the back wall, otherwise you won't get a balanced surouund sound field..


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Thanks for your suggestions TMP! I'm in experimental mode now (see below), but I did notice the sound "gel" when I stood up from the LP. I think the surrounds ned to be aimed lower (their tweeters are currently laser-aligned 2ft directly above the LP.
My LP is now about 27" from the rear wall (60" TV is about 11' from LP).
I've rotated the panel behind the LP from vertical to horizontal
Need to treat surfaces opposite each surround.
Remount left surround higher so can aim lower than 2ft over LP.
It's probably judicious to dial-in my current setup before shopping for new surrounds, but I do notice a quality gap between front and rear. I may be getting ahead of myself , but time's-a-wasting on the Chane M-1 Speaker Sale. Hmmmm.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about dialling-in your current speakers..Just buy the speakers you want and then set up your positioning and acoustics with those speakers..


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I thought I was an enabler! Nice work Prof.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Hmmm... Ohhhh honnnneeeeeey...

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Mwahaaha!!!!!!!!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Love that phonetic spelling


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Love that phonetic spelling


 lol. It's easier than supercalafragilisticexpealidocious! (I just guessed on that. Lol)


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