# When my sub grows up (not blows up)



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

On another thread, Tonyvdb started me wondering about nether regions of subterrannean bass my system is not mining. :scratchchin: I've been combing over some of the subwoofer forums and recent threads about bass extension to see if there's a quick solution but wouldn't ya knooooo-oooohw, it's another can of worms. Budget purchase? DIY? Dual subs? Placement? etc. etc. etc. :gah:

My REL T-9 is no slouch for my smallish (~10x13) room, but its 6dB down point is only 28Hz. What I understand is that's not too impressive. I may have to wait until I have more :dollarsign: to throw at this, but *I'd like to extend the frequency response of my system down to a more exciting level*. Selling the REL is not out of the question, but I'm all thumbs for a DIY box.

I'm entertaining all suggestions for a replacement sub, including easy-to-build DIY if there is such a thing (I'm thinking it will be cheaper than buying a new one). Oh yeah, and there's really no room for TWO people in this HT room let alone two subs, so let's keep the snickering to a minimum, okay? :heehee: :nono:

TIA


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Well Lou. The first one that comes to mind is the SVS SB2000. 699.99 to the door. Free shipping both ways. Iirc, 45 day no questions return policy. Plus, 5yr warranty. It's small and sealed, so it will be great with music, although that's not a prerequisite. It's rated to 19hz, but in room extension should be closer to 15 or 16. How low do yo want to spend? Lol You could diy , but if you're all thumbs, let them handle it. 
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb-2000
Plenty of others, but that was the first to hit my brain cell....
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/cylinder
I have a bias toward these too.


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## jamesfrazier (Jul 24, 2011)

The reaction audio gamma 15. It's older version the pv-15x out performed the svs SB13u for a lot less of the cost..Plus the newer one has a much better speaker power amp. The price for performance on these is no joke.

But of course you get plain black plain cabinets.. Not the refined beautiful refined svs finish, And their warranty is better. 

You can't go wrong with any of the ID direct companies people are going to recommend here.. SVS,HSU,Rythmik,RA etc.


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## nwf477 (Feb 8, 2015)

I am partial to DIY. Depending on space available for the sub I would suggest look at DIYsoundgroup they have a 4cu.ft. flatpack for 120.00 you can get a Stereo Integrity HT18 for 174 depending on if you ever decide to go with 2 subs get a Behringer Inuke nu3000 or if you will never decide on 2 go with a nu1000 for 150. figure on a 100 or less for wire connectors and paint how you finish it your choice and done. Tools needed all I used was a tape measure, pencil, wood glue, cordless screwdriver and wood screws. With the exception of waiting on the glue to dry 2-3 hours. My sub will go down to 14hz ( cannot really hear it but things are vibrating in the room ).


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

It's funny, but when you don't know what you're missing it's not a big deal. However, hear/feel really deep bass one time - just once - and things change forever. 28Hz will never suffice again.

Along with the subs already suggested, check out the PowerSound Audio XS15se and S1500. Both are relatively small yet can plumb the depths with ease.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The lowest priced sub that will reach 20Hz is the SVS PB1000 Outlet special its on sale at $450
If you want more then the price goes up. HSU has one for just over $500 but it only hits 25Hz.


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## nordraw (Jul 15, 2010)

I'll second that one


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Thanks, everyone, for your awesome responses! They'll take a little while to digest, especially if they keep pouring in. Some of you mentioned sub location and available space, so I imagine that will affect the best choice. If you think it will help, I'll post some pics, but don't expect much in terms of options. The room's cram-packed with HT equipment, record albums, bass traps, and... tah dah ...the LP chair (story for another day).

The only set up I'd be worried about is corner placement. Some say it's best because it excites all room modes equally. Others say it just gives bloated bass. My REL is designed for corner placement. Is it okay to put any of your recommended models in the corner? Can you please repeat the pros and cons for me?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Well, it is a lot to take in. And man, I hate being uprooted from contentment! I feel your pain. And I know you know I know, cause you saw my amp thread. Lol. Anyway, corner placement will most likely depend on the room more than the sub. I have 3, all in corners, and my response is pretty nice. Lots of experiments, and phase adjustments. No reason not to start in the corner. Or where the REL is (corner?) pics?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

corner placement can be ideal or it can be poor. You simply wont know till you try it. One thing to note is that a sub that is built right and digs deep will have a much better in room response than a cheap one so in room gain is not always a good indicator as to how deep it will go. Always get the best sub you can afford as it really makes a big difference.


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## jb5200 (Aug 20, 2010)

I agree, I have had good and bad results with corner placement, it really depends on the room. In my current room I started on the inside of the tower and then tried the outside (corner) and that was bad - way more boom but not as clean so I had to go back to the inside. My last house and room I had to have it in the corner - it was the only way it sounded right without being halfway up out into the room and the wife wouldn't go for that! I told her it was the island from the kitchen that she's always wanted - Didn't fly!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> corner placement will most likely depend on the room more than the sub. I have 3, all in corners, and my response is pretty nice. Lots of experiments, and phase adjustments. No reason not to start in the corner. Or where the REL is (corner?) pics?





tonyvdb said:


> corner placement can be ideal or it can be poor. You simply wont know till you try it.





jb5200 said:


> I agree, I have had good and bad results with corner placement, it really depends on the room.


Okay, moving closer to that warm-n-fuzzy. Thanks for that--not so worried now about cart before the horse! I'll plan on a lot of trial-and-error using REW to help with speaker/sub positions and room treatment. Here's where the sub is before (left) and after (right) trapping. It's hard to tell from the pics but the trap forced the sub back into the corner against the baseboard, which essentially traded extension for flatter response. BTW, speaking of experimenting... at one time I had the trap _on top of the sub_. REW measurements and listening tests were best that way, but it kept falling off because of the vibrations (LOL). Just couldn't bring myself to duct tape it to the REL's nice finish.

The other pics show the rest of the room. The area circled in yellow could be an alternate location for the sub (on either side of the room). The LP end of the room obviously has no room for one. So that's what I have to work with. The REL is roughly a 14.5inch cube, but there's plenty more space back in that corner if I move or get rid of that bass trap. I thought about suspending it from the ceiling!!! Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. Just wanted to give you an idea of the layout.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> It's funny, but when you don't know what you're missing it's not a big deal. However, hear/feel really deep bass one time - just once - and things change forever. 28Hz will never suffice again.


Just like microwave ovens and cell phones! Don't know how you ever survived without 'em.



willis7469 said:


> And man, I hate being uprooted from contentment! I feel your pain. And I know you know I know, cause you saw my amp thread. Lol.





jb5200 said:


> ...the wife wouldn't go for that! I told her it was the island from the kitchen that she's always wanted - Didn't fly!


 You guys are too funny. :bigsmile:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> How low do yo want to spend? Lol


Sorry I missed you 1st time around (and apologies to anyone else I missed). You're all officially in the "too funny" club.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

nwf477 said:


> I am partial to DIY. Depending on space available for the sub I would suggest look at DIYsoundgroup they have a 4cu.ft. flatpack for 120.00 you can get a Stereo Integrity HT18 for 174 depending on if you ever decide to go with 2 subs get a Behringer Inuke nu3000 or if you will never decide on 2 go with a nu1000 for 150. figure on a 100 or less for wire connectors and paint how you finish it your choice and done. Tools needed all I used was a tape measure, pencil, wood glue, cordless screwdriver and wood screws. With the exception of waiting on the glue to dry 2-3 hours. My sub will go down to 14hz ( cannot really hear it but things are vibrating in the room ).


You raise my hopes... Mitre saws and precision work with fasteners like nails and screws can tax my abilities, but gluing I can handle! To quote Harrison Ford in _Six Days and Seven Nights_: "See, I'm not totally without skills!" I can mud drywall, lay tile, solder, and put all sorts of nasty marks on various materials using my Dremel accessories 

But ya gotta start somewhere, and I'm willing to try the DIY if I can get the results cheaper than a stroe-bought solution. OTOH, if I destroy an enclosure it could cost more in the long run. But hey, thanks for the suggestion and I'll check out the DIY section to try and learn some more.


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## nwf477 (Feb 8, 2015)

Without trying to persuade you one way or another, personally I have zero woodworking skills. I can do electrical and put furniture from Ikea together. With the tools I mentioned that was all I had to build them. It would have been nice to have bar clamps then there would have been no need for the screws. If you are interested in performance look at this page:
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems 
then scroll down to the DIY SI HT18D2 and look at the numbers then you can compare those to all the other brands. For me it was a no brainier, I was very tempted to get a Reaction PS-15X @800.00 it maxes out at 118.1 db will go down to 16hz at 93db the HT 18D2 maxes out at 123.1db will go down to 12.5hz at 92.7db. It's your choice all I can say I like mine a lot I will be ordering the second 18 on Monday the box is done.


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## Insearchof (Oct 21, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> corner placement can be ideal or it can be poor. You simply wont know till you try it. One thing to note is that a sub that is built right and digs deep will have a much better in room response than a cheap one so in room gain is not always a good indicator as to how deep it will go. Always get the best sub you can afford as it really makes a big difference.


^^^Agree. I used to run a sub in a corner as it was the only available spot before I recently moved. In the new living room, corner placement certainly gives more output but it also sounded a bit slow and boomy. The LV12R is not slow or boomy.
Moving it directly to the right of my center speaker tightened it up and smoothed out the sound in multiple positions. I certainly lost a bit of output but I'm happier with the overall sound.
For movies, it anchors the sound much better. The presentation doesn't feel lopsided anymore.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

I'm a little overwhelmed with tax season right now, but still :reading:
Thanks to all for the thoughtful input and not just model numbers!!!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

This may have been better treated along the lines of "Let sleeping dogs lie," but I'll try to revive this thread anyway. If no nibbles, I'll try a new one 

So now I've gone and done did it again. Started rearranging my surrounds and tweaking bass traps, taking new measurements and making time for listening sessions. It's decided... the old sub has to go. It just doesn't cut it for HT, and I don't use the system much for music-only listening (though that could change as I tear-down my 2ch rig).

I have the opportunity to buy a slightly used SVS SB13 Ultra for $1000 with trade of my REL T-9 (not such a great deal IMO since the SVS retails for $1.6k and can be had right now on scratch-n-dent special for $1.25k). If I go that route, I could sell the REL outright and pocket the difference. I also have an Emotiva UMC-1 and UPA-500 to unload. I'm guessing I should be able to get around $500 for the sub and $400 for the processor/amp combo. Sound about right? 

I know you guys already told me that it's all about "How low do you want to spend?" I also know you already told me it's futile trying to integrate two different subs (if I could even fit them in my room). *So what would you do if this were you? Just looking for some more justification for getting rid of a perfectly good sub! If I can sell the gear and come up with a few hundred savings, would you still recommend the same subs?* The Reaction Audio Gamma-15 comes to mind.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> *So what would you do if this were you? Just looking for some more justification for getting rid of a perfectly good sub! If I can sell the gear and come up with a few hundred savings, would you still recommend the same subs?*


If it were me I'd unload what you've got and use the cash on a new sub. There are some excellent options in the $1k range as suggested above. The SB13 Ultra is a great sub and would really rock in your room. I'll second the nominations for Power Sound Audio.




willis7469 said:


> And man, I hate being uprooted from contentment!


Amen to that!!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Guess I forgot to mention the local high-end shop is willing to loan me the SVS SB13u for the weekend. I've got a feeling my contentment is about to be blown out of the water. Problem is, I'm not missing low f's now, and my current sub has never showed signs of stress, sooo... should I venture forward with an audition?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Guess I forgot to mention the local high-end shop is willing to loan me the SVS SB13u for the weekend. I've got a feeling my contentment is about to be blown out of the water. Problem is, I'm not missing low f's now, and my current sub has never showed signs of stress, sooo... should I venture forward with an audition?


 yes. I would. Go! Go now! (Arnold voice)


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## jamesfrazier (Jul 24, 2011)

I'll be visiting the reaction warehouse sooner or later this summer so I will be able to see, and hear reaction audios new line up . May not be ideal for listening etc, but I can give some impressions if that would help you.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

jamesfrazier said:


> I'll be visiting the reaction warehouse sooner or later this summer so I will be able to see, and hear reaction audios new line up . May not be ideal for listening etc, but I can give some impressions if that would help you.


 That's very considerate of you! Sincere thanks.  Can you hear a "but" coming? Once I commit, I'm on a toboggan ride to the finish, research and all! So it's either sink or swim for the short term. I do wonder though, how much difference can 8 Hz really make? Or are there other factors I should listen for when auditioning this weekend? Not everybody all at once now (eshpeshully Ahnold)  Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

For a subwoofer 8Hz would be noticeable. The difference between one that can reach 20Hz instead 28Hz, or one that can hit 12Hz instead of 20Hz, is significant. However, that's assuming the manufacturers of these units are providing accurate specifications measured in the same manner. That may not be the case. There's more to a subwoofer then the graphs and charts can show, but that isn't how most people do their research.

Often referred to as "bench racers", these folks pour over statistics like a mathematician dives into a formula. They agonize over the slightest numerical difference, (wrongly) convinced every variation is important. Not all are. For example, a difference of less than 1dB in total output is inaudible. Measurable yes, but not something that would affect the person listening to the "less powerful" unit. Strictly using something like that to crown a winner is unwise.

Unfortunately most forums have a large number of people who do things like that, so if a manufacturer - especially those in the ID space - wants to stay in business they have to play the numbers game. Some will fudge the specs outright, others will take their measurements in conditions that could never be duplicated in the real world and some may not follow the industry standard methods or best practice way to go about it.

Now I'm certainly _not_ imply they're all charlatans, because that's definitely not the case, but you do need to be cautious about putting too much faith in the numbers being posted. Use them more as a guideline. There are indeed companies that work very hard to accurately portray what their subwoofers can truly do, but it's not always easy to identify them.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Once you test drive that SB13u you won't return it


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> Once you test drive that SB13u you won't return it


Tony speaks the truth.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Problem is, I'm not missing low f's now, and my current sub has never showed signs of stress, sooo... should I venture forward with an audition?


You've already asked the questions, and you know there's more to be had, so it's inevitable :devil:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Well said, Jim. Shopping & buying is almost as fun as owning, and in my excitement I glossed over the spec wars issue that plague other equipment categories like amps. I'll be sure to follow your advice. After reviewing the PSA subs you recommended earlier, *I now wonder: "Will my room support such low frequency extension?"* I know from other discussions that real-world performance will depend on room gain, which can be hard to predict given the variety of influences (such as sub location, room dimensions, absorption coefficients, etc.). Many of the recommended subs have room gain compensation controls, which I gather are fixed fc, low-Q level controls. Some also have one or two bands of PEQ that can be used in addition to whatever auto EQ is employed by the AVR. Obviously, sub volume is set relative to other speakers, but *will 20Hz overpower and shake apart my room and its contents?*


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

BlueRockinLou said:


> but *will 20Hz overpower and shake apart my room and its contents?*


Let put it this way, I have the PB13U and it has even more output the the SB Ive never noticed anything coming apart in my room.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Real world performance will depend upon room gain for sure, but placement and tuning factor in greatly as well. An average sub positioned and tuned correctly may ultimately sound better than a nice sub that benefits from neither. It's a balancing act really.

If you have some type of room EQ - like Audyssey, YPAO, etc - then no part of the frequency spectrum should overwhelm your room. The vast majority of what they do is tune down peaks, so if there is a range that's getting too much boost from the room it will level that out (or at least drag it down enough to make it acceptable). Between that and the gain control on the sub amp you should be able to adjust according to taste.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Jim is full of truth, as usual. Nice Jim. 

Lou, just to drop in on your room gain thing. If you divide 565(1/2 speed of sound), by the longest room length, you can determine where room gain starts. Ie: 565/40= is about 40hz. Maybe not valuable, but maybe. When you have a sealed sub it's roll off slope is 12db per octave vs 24db per octave for a ported sub. This is largely to protect the driver from unloading below tuning. In your room either would be great but sealed would more easily yield the lowest hz.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Jim is full of truth, as usual. Nice Jim.





theJman said:


> Real world performance will depend upon room gain for sure, but placement and tuning factor in greatly as well. An average sub positioned and tuned correctly may ultimately sound better than a nice sub that benefits from neither. It's a balancing act really.
> 
> If you have some type of room EQ - like Audyssey, YPAO, etc - then no part of the frequency spectrum should overwhelm your room. The vast majority of what they do is tune down peaks, so if there is a range that's getting too much boost from the room it will level that out (or at least drag it down enough to make it acceptable). Between that and the gain control on the sub amp you should be able to adjust according to taste.


Yes, nice Jim. Good Jim doesn't laugh at Lou! I've become somewhat adept at running Dirac Full for Emotiva on my XMC-1, but still stumble with REW. One of my goals is to start posting my measurements to get some help with graph interpretation, but that keeps getting pushed aside with mundane activities such as experimenting with surround positioning. I think I'm messing things up with my Dirac house curve, and I also think I need to shut down it's processing for higher frequencies--read an article somewhere (perhaps the miniDSP site) about the effectiveness in that range.

When you say "...no part of the frequency spectrum should overwhelm your room," you're referring to peaks, right? I think the notches are usually caused by room modes, which can't be EQ'd away but can be treated with bass traps. I'll be working with sub and trap positions as I measure and re-measure to try and rid my room of its broad 40Hz peak and roughly 90Hz dip (if memory serves). Dirac claims to have tamed the peak, but I've not yet verified that using REW. That dip is a problem and seems to persist no matter how many traps I add--and these are true bass traps absorbing down to 55Hz for the 16" model and 30Hz for the 20" one (at least as claimed by the manufacturer). Now I know that measurement standards are even more elastic for acoustical treatments than for some electronic gear, so you can take that with a grain of salt. Also if memory serves, those are the minimum absorption points and don't reflect the actual -3dB effectiveness. I need to do some number crunching with room modes and find where the first few harmonics occur to help decide where the traps should go. A simpler method is to play bass-heavy music and/or test tracks, then physically carry a trap around the room. When it vibrates the most, drop it there!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Peter Loeser said:


> Tony speaks the truth.





tonyvdb said:


> Once you test drive that SB13u you won't return it


Enablers :laugh:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

FYI Lou, peaks can be caused by modes also. I think too, that if modes are caused by the room as opposed to phase interactions placement is the way to deal with that. 
Shouldn't you be picking up a sub to test drive?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ya, the next post better be "oh wow, Im loving this new SB13u"


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> Ya, the next post better be "oh wow, Im loving this new SB13u"


 that'll be a fun read!


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Yes, nice Jim. Good Jim doesn't laugh at Lou!


'Good' Jim doesn't laugh at Lou, but 'bad' Jim certainly does. JK! :bigsmile:




BlueRockinLou said:


> When you say "...no part of the frequency spectrum should overwhelm your room," you're referring to peaks, right?


I am indeed.




BlueRockinLou said:


> I think the notches are usually caused by room modes, which can't be EQ'd away but can be treated with bass traps. I'll be working with sub and trap positions as I measure and re-measure to try and rid my room of its broad 40Hz peak and roughly 90Hz dip (if memory serves). Dirac claims to have tamed the peak, but I've not yet verified that using REW. That dip is a problem and seems to persist no matter how many traps I add--and these are true bass traps absorbing down to 55Hz for the 16" model and 30Hz for the 20" one (at least as claimed by the manufacturer).


If you get to a point where nothing seems to be working than consider one more thing; change the firing orientation of your subwoofer. I know this probably sounds absurd but if you have a front-firing sub that is causing notches - and no amount of fiddling or acoustic panels rectify the issue - try spinning it 180 degrees and firing into the rear wall. Obviously you'll need to leave some space between the sub and the wall, but you might be surprised at what a small change in relative distance between you and the output source can do for those nulls.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The have been a few hrs of silence from Lou, I wonder what he is doing LOL


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I love those white B&W's. 
Anyway, I bought a PSA 15 something or other and love it. Never had a full fledged go low sub before and this is new territory. It is not how deep it goes always, although that is awesome, it is hearing how the entire foundation of music and movies can be slammed at your chest. You can hear/feel the vibrations of a concert drum, the 32' pedal note at the beginning of Also Sprach Zarathustra and so many other works. The entire sonic spectrum seems to unload before you with a good sub, that does dip deeeep.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

You guys seem to be on the edge of your seats, so here's a quick update... Got the SB13u unloaded and hauled into the room, but not before trying to get it out of the car by myself. Luckily the neighbor came rushing over to help. Didn't want to mess with a corner install at first because of the trap and right main in the way. Almost put it on the side wall in front of the R-main, but that wouldn't be a fair comparison. 

Well, since I had everything out of one corner, I figured I'd just empty the room of all treatment and realign the mains for better SS&I. Only a single, very familiar demo song was used in the interest of moving things along-may need to revisit as time allows--but am really satisfied and a little surprised at how good it turned out compared to the he-man rig's rendition. Used rule of thirds & fifths as much as possible. Tweets wound up one fifth (21.5") from side wall , and one third (53") from rear. That puts them 88 " from LP and 66" apart. Anyway, zero degree toe-in was as unacceptable as having gravel poured down a metal chute with a grinding transmission in the background. Poceeded to toe-in 1 inch at a time while readjust speaker positions to keep relative tweet locations constant (i.e. always 21.5 & 53). The stage blossomed and imaging focused at two different points: (a) after just 2 inches toe-in as measured from rear of cabs and (b) pointed straight at the LP. I opted for (a) because it was warmer and more spacious (subjective personal preferences). 

Okay, so spiked the mains to keep them from sliding on the carpet, then laser-trimmed their final positions (too late and lazy to crunch numbers on where they cross behind the LP). Next marked the 1st reflection points with the help of a mirror and my kind stepdaughter, who humors me in all things A/V. But no treatments yet! Fired-up REW and am working on my first graphs. Would like to get through the whole series of speaker + sub combos. Let's see what happens.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> Once you test drive that SB13u you won't return it
> ...
> Ya, the next post better be "oh wow, Im loving this new SB13u"





willis7469 said:


> that'll be a fun read!





Savjac said:


> The entire sonic spectrum seems to unload before you with a good sub, that does dip deeeep.


As Captain Picard would say, "Make it so!" I need a new sub. Definitely. I haven't even played explosions yet, and I know I must have it. As Jack alluded to, the low bass doesn't need to belt at you to make itself known. Just having it there enhances calmer portions of a soundtrack. Rounds-out the presentation; very addictive! I'm watching _Hidalgo_ in the background and keep getting distracted from my post by the (admittedly subjective) improvement over the 10" / 350W REL. Remember, not even any explosions yet! Thundering hooves, though... right now... gotta go!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> I love those white B&W's.


Thanks! Mind a short story? I wanted something different than the norm when I traded in my KEF 105/3 in Rosewood--something that would ease separation-anxiety with those beauties. So after narrowing down the field by ear, aesthetics came into play. So here they are. In retrospect they're a bit ostentatious, as well as somewhat inappropriate for a preferably dark viewing zone. On the other hand, their satin finish helps diffract light and can add a nice you-are-there feeling from the light shows in music videos!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I like what jack said. It's what I noticed when I got my 1st capable sub. It's not an accentuation without representation. Wait I'm confusing that. Lol. 
It doesn't need to hit you in the face, but it can if you want. The hooks have been placed...


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> The have been a few hrs of silence from Lou, I wonder what he is doing LOL


Thanks for the laughs and grins through this. They do help! 



theJman said:


> If you get to a point where nothing seems to be working than consider one more thing; change the firing orientation of your subwoofer. I know this probably sounds absurd but if you have a front-firing sub that is causing notches - and no amount of fiddling or acoustic panels rectify the issue - try spinning it 180 degrees and firing into the rear wall. Obviously you'll need to leave some space between the sub and the wall, but you might be surprised at what a small change in relative distance between you and the output source can do for those nulls.


You absolutely do not sound absurd. Sounds more like the same principle for speaker placement. Has to do with exciting the modes. Sitting in a null? Swapping places with the speaker from the LP and the problem's still there. It's important to keep the speaker away from zones that reinforce a room's natural resonance. I don't profess to know much of the science behind it, but an acoustics guy once showed me how to even bass response using just a tiny, anemic subwoofer moved around the 2ch listening room.

In any case, I'll definitely turn the sub around. But I promise you... there'll be no "spinning" involved!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

2:30am was my limit for measuring last night. Spent a 1/2 hour trying to get any sound of sub at all until I realized the processor was set for Stereo. Not really sure which graphs to post because I don't want to take the thread off-topic into some "Let's revamp Lou's whole room" episode on _This Old House_. Not that I haven't already begun. To bring you up to speed, I've:
Replaced REL with SVS SB13u in corner (more on this later)
Removed all traps and treatments
Repositioned mains w.r.t. walls & LP
Taken first full set of REW measurements

Here are the results, for better or worse. All comments and questions welcome! Please let me know if I need to massage any graph, if it helps. My interpretation is the previously bloated region centered at 45Hz is now just an easily EQ'd peak (previous plots not included). Also, the seriously deep dip from 80-100Hz has been lifted somewhat (by the new position of the mains, I'm guessing). If it doesn't respond to a slight EQ nudge, I'm hoping that adjusting/moving the sub will help; wish there were more options. Don't want to get the cart before the horse but if needed, I think it will fit next to the LP. Can that be a good idea? Can anyone say "Sense-surround?" Don't worry, I'll be spinning it on its axis first. Oh yeah, almost forgot. Shouldn't the waterfall be plotted out to 500ms?
*FR: SUB ONLY (out of corner w/o traps)*







*FR: SUB AND CENTER (out of corner w/o traps)*







*FR: SUB AND MAINS (out of corner w/o traps)*







*WATERFALL: SUB AND MAINS (out of corner w/o traps)* 







*FR: L-MAIN ONLY (enhanced SS&I w/o panels)*







*FR: R-MAIN ONLY (enhanced SS&I w/o panels)*







*FR: CENTER ONLY (along for the ride)*


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

After exhausting most distances and orientations in the corner, the majority measured worse than those above. Go figure--what are the chances of plopping it down in the best corner spot. Beginner's luck, that's what!

There are two other options at this point:
Relocate mains closer to front wall (and TV screen--yuck) to make room directly in front of right speaker
Temporarily move right main to relocate sub across room on back wall to right of LP.

Option-1 would have the sub firing into the shorter dimension, but could be angled along the same axis as the right main. Lot's of trouble to start over dialing in SS&I, but could be worth it if bass response improves enough. Option-2 saves starting over, but other than shaker systems, I've not heard of the sole sub being located next to the LP. 

:scratch: :help:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Hmmm, looking at the graphs something is not right. That sub should be digging deeper than 24hz.
Are you certain you have the controls bypassed (zeroed out) on the sub it's self. Also the crossover seems off as it looses steam well below 80hz....just seems wrong


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Tony, I so appreciate your feedback! It's much easier to measure than it is to interpret the results! I see what you're saying about the low end. The sub's 3dB down point is 20Hz. When boosted by room gain it should have a real-world response below that. All the settings were defeated excepted volume, which was reduced to -25dB per REW calibration levels to 75dBSPL. Before your crossover comment I thought that was just a response dip, but now I've learned to pay more attention in that region. When coupled with the early roll off down low, it seems I forgot to disable either Dirac or the downloaded REW PEQ's on my processor. Whooo boy, and I had a ton more measurements to share. That's the joy of this hobby, though. Do. Discover. Debug!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

I was going to share the REW results after bringing in a couple traps, but it seems my results may not be valid. I need to retake them making sure that all processing is defeated. Until then, here are some pics of the traps and measuring session.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yup, play with the crossover as well as the phase, lots of room for improvement I think. Just out of curiosity have you tried moving your listening position forward or even backward? I'm assuming you have it pulled out somewhat from the rear wall?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> ....it seems I forgot to disable either Dirac or the downloaded REW PEQ's on my processor.... Debug!


Not for the sub, though! It was hooked directly to the audio interface for all measurements, so wasn't subjected to bass management. The processor needs to be in Direct mode for all processing (except bass management) to be disabled. Throwing in the towel for now. Off to another get-acquainted movie session!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> Yup, play with the crossover as well as the phase, lots of room for improvement I think. Just out of curiosity have you tried moving your listening position forward or even backward? I'm assuming you have it pulled out somewhat from the rear wall?


Yeah, the LP used to be against the wall; lots of bass reinforcement there. Not so much at the new LP, ~28in away. That distance is fixed by (Blu Ray) storage tubs behind the chair. The idea evolved out of relocating my surrounds. Pulling the chair forward promotes a better surround effect. You do have a point, though. I should check bass response a foot or two around the LP. Sometimes doesn't even take that to make a big difference.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

*News Flash!* My last Dirac session somehow gummed-up the works by downloading about a 0.25sec delay to the LFE channel. Yes, you read correctly, about a 1/4 to 1/2 second. It wasn't that obvious during slow-flowing soundtrack scenes' Especially obvious were the disjoint explosions of ground fire during the bomber scenes in _"Unbroken"_. At first I thought the audio/video timing offset changed, but voices were synced with lips just fine. A music video or two confirmed low bass lagged behind the rest of the spectrum. Very strange. I was unaware that auto-EQ could set such long delays between channels.

Anyway, I ran another Dirac session, being more careful with a tighter-spaced mic pattern. When it came time to create my house curve, I massaged the default within +/-2dB for each channel to my liking. Next, I adjusted the frequency windows targeted for Dirac processing. Finally, I saved the session and watched intently to ensure the laptop's filters and settings download was error-free.

*Lift Off!!* We gots da bass, we gottss duh BASS, a boom-booom-BOOM!!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Are there any backflips in there? Lol
That's great Lou.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Are there any backflips in there? Lol That's great Lou.


Ok. Let's get that curve flattened out!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

:yay: :hsd: :yay2:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I take it your happy with how it sounds?.....


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> I take it your happy with how it sounds?.....


What would make you think that?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

theJman said:


> What would make you think that?


 maybe cause he hasn't written anything legible in about 5 hours! Lol


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

It's all about da bass :hsd:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Ok. Let's get that curve flattened out!





tonyvdb said:


> I take it your happy with how it sounds?.....


I'm hooked on deep bass now. All of you were right: once you experience it you never want to go back. The setup problems I've had with the SB13u make it tempting to revert back to the plug-n-play REL, but I think in the end it will be worth it. I think the SVS can best the REL hands-down in the low-f extension department, but I'm unsure whether or not it can come close to the REL's tuneful, stop-on-a-dime transient response. Just as an FYI... The SVS is fully functional. I ran a set of low-f sweeps and its rumble is truly awe-inspiring. I'm also _very_ lucky the room and contents do not resonate!!! 

Happy? Yes. Ecstatic? No. 
Now I want to go even lower with better articulation. But like Willis says, first I need to fine-tune what I have. I don't think I can fully appreciate the beast that lies waiting there in my room until it's properly dialed in. I'd like to be able to get the extension it's capable of, and to clean up the crossover region if needed. I'd also like to get better pitch definition. At this point, I'm fighting the room and sub positioning. I'll need to capture a few curves with REW before knowing how the latest setup actually behaves. I'll try posting some more graphs by the end of the week. 

I took


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Mondays are a drag. Just realized I left everyone in the dark (haha) about my movie auditions. I tried "9" and "Real Steal," which are both on our Movies with Big Bass List. I thought "9" wasn't all that impressive at first; but then realized the LFE track and SVS blended very well with the mains. So much so that I didn't think the SVS was working again. I had to get up to place my hand lightly on the woofer to make sure! In some cases during the audition I boosted the level about 3-4dB. It was a little hard gauging the contribution from just the sub, because my new surround locations allowed for quite an immersive experience compared to its previous configuration. The bass in "Real Steal" started to showcase the SVS, and its performance while not breathtaking--remember it still needs to be dialed in--was riveting and shocking. The robot's mechanical & electrical noises rose out of the nether regions without a hitch. And the whole system had better dynamic slam. The sub worked with the other speakers rather than against them to present a stage that exploded out of the boxes in lifelike form. Impressive stuff indeed. 

Can't wait to make final adjustments to rid the sound of that last bit of indistinct pitch and muddiness. I know it'll probably need to move, but where? Maybe re-tune the mains a little further back to make room for the sub off to the side. That might smooth out the response a little and allow for mode extension. A lot of you are saying I should be getting lower than 24Hz (judging by my previous graph). Being an acoustics novice, I have no idea whether the room will even support lower bass. And I'm unsure how to correct any response dips in the crossover region, except through trial-and-error adjustments using the SB13's two independent PEQ's.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ok. For the greater good. This is where id start for a crossover integration. 
What you're gonna try to do is, play an 80hz(or wherever you're crossed over) tone, and measure its spl at the same time. REW can do this. While you're playing the tone, adjust the subs phase control and watch the level. When it's at the highest output level that's where you should the phase. This is mostly effective for blending with the mains. This works because both sides of 80hz are used by sub and mains. As the mains roll off and the sub picks up, there is a valley since roll off profiles aren't brick walls. Essentially, the phase shift creates a peak which serves to raise the valley at 80. I hope that is helpful.[/


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Again, I think you should see extension to 14 or 15hz. The room size question is valid I think. My guess would be yes. If I remember the math, a 20hz wavelength is 56' long and a16hz wave is 70'!!!! I'm not really qualified to answer but I would think think think think cabin gain (like a car) would be tremendous. I think (guessing) more/better traps might be in order to help the articulation. That small room can't be helpful. And the crates might be packed densely enough to effect the actual room dims. For science, you might take me out out and see what happens. Maybe find an upright cab to hold it all next to the room, outside of it ?????? .02


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> The robot's mechanical & electrical noises rose out of the nether regions without a hitch. And the whole system had better dynamic slam. The sub worked with the other speakers rather than against them to present a stage that exploded out of the boxes in lifelike form. Impressive stuff indeed.


That's precisely how it's supposed to be, with them working together as one. Makes for quite a fulfilling experience, doesn't it?



BlueRockinLou said:


> Can't wait to make final adjustments to rid the sound of that last bit of indistinct pitch and muddiness.





willis7469 said:


> Ok. For the greater good. This is where id start for a crossover integration.
> What you're gonna try to do is, play an 80hz(or wherever you're crossed over) tone, and measure its spl at the same time. REW can do this. While you're playing the tone, adjust the subs phase control and watch the level. When it's at the highest output level that's where you should the phase. This is mostly effective for blending with the mains. This works because both sides of 80hz are used by sub and mains. As the mains roll off and the sub picks up, there is a valley since roll off profiles aren't brick walls. Essentially, the phase shift creates a peak which serves to raise the valley at 80. I hope that is helpful.[/


Along with the phase adjustment, another you might want to try is the LPF and the slope. I've found that when confronted with a difficult crossover integration setting the LPF often cleans it up. In addition, a steeper slope - 24dB per octave as opposed to 12dB - can smooth things out even further.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Ok. For the greater good. This is where id start for a crossover integration.
> What you're gonna try to do is, play an 80hz(or wherever you're crossed over) tone, and measure its spl at the same time. REW can do this. While you're playing the tone, adjust the subs phase control and watch the level. When it's at the highest output level that's where you should the phase. This is mostly effective for blending with the mains. This works because both sides of 80hz are used by sub and mains. As the mains roll off and the sub picks up, there is a valley since roll off profiles aren't brick walls. Essentially, the phase shift creates a peak which serves to raise the valley at 80. I hope that is helpful.


Can't wait to try this next time!



willis7469 said:


> Again, I think you should see extension to 14 or 15hz. The room size question is valid I think. My guess would be yes. If I remember the math, a 20hz wavelength is 56' long and a16hz wave is 70'!!!! I'm not really qualified to answer but I would think think think think cabin gain (like a car) would be tremendous. I think (guessing) more/better traps might be in order to help the articulation. That small room can't be helpful. And the crates might be packed densely enough to effect the actual room dims. For science, you might take me out out and see what happens. Maybe find an upright cab to hold it all next to the room, outside of it ?????? .02


Yeah, I believe you. The SB13u is spec'd at 20-460Hz +/-3dB as shown below. Funny you should mention the crates. I think they make the room acoustically smaller, too. Not a WAF, but they gotta stay--least dusty and safest place in house. I'll bring some more of the traps back in during my next tuning session.











theJman said:


> Along with the phase adjustment, another you might want to try is the LPF and the slope. I've found that when confronted with a difficult crossover integration setting the LPF often cleans it up. In addition, a steeper slope - 24dB per octave as opposed to 12dB - can smooth things out even further.


Great tips! I'll definitely try that my next tuning session. Weird how the response drops from 50 to 80, then flattens out to 100. It's almost as if there's a crossover engaged somewhere, but I made all measurements in Direct Mode (no manual or auto-EQ, and no bass management or tone controls--I was wrong about that earlier).


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

So I've done almost everything I can to integrate this sub. Aside from a few tweaks you've suggested, I think it's time to accept that the sub is driving as good as it can with my limited skill set at the wheel. I did figure out that to measure the effects of Dirac, I needed to change connections from 7.1 Analog Bypass to 2ch Analog. The latter activates bass management, all PEQ trims, and both auto (Dirac) and manual (REW) correction. So by injecting the test signal into both L and R channels, the processor derived the necessary bass signal and output them according to the selected audio mode (PLIIx, Stereo, etc.). So I was able to see a pretty flat response after Dirac Room Correction. Now just need to remove the 6dB of gain, and try the phase an low-pass tweaks.

_Looking at the resultant graphs tell me that Dirac did a really decent job of extending the sub's nether region by a few hertz. They also reveal good correction in the crossover region (if I'm reading them right)._


*(Sub Only; Uncorrected) vs. (Sub Only - SVS PEQ (+6dB Total @80Hz with Q=3.6)*









*(Sub Only; +6dB SVS PEQ) vs (Sub Only with Dirac)*









*(Sub Only; +6dB SVS PEQ) vs (Sub + Mains with Dirac)*


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

This next issue might be moot, considering I _**think**_ I've coaxed a decent response out of the SB13u. But I was wondering if anyone else (the more the merrier) thinks that the response shown below of the Rythmic LV12R sub's PORT (blue trace) looks suspiciously like the response of the SB13u's DRIVER (top graph in post immediately above). Do you think that my used loaner has a leak or other defect that might cause the shown response? Or is the response cemented by the room dimensions/construction?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> Real world performance will depend upon room gain for sure, but placement and tuning factor in greatly as well. An average sub positioned and tuned correctly may ultimately sound better than a nice sub that benefits from neither. It's a balancing act really.


Sorry, I must have missed this while tuning! :innocent: 
That also answers my next question about going with a more expensive sub to get better in-room response.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> The peanut gallery says the word I underlined above will be a problem, and the only way to even try and mitigate it is with a lot of subwoofer. _A lot._
> 
> Concrete is the death knell for tactile sensation, which is generated by the really deep bass (the "kick in the chest" you hear people referring to is in the 40-60Hz range, and that you can still have in a concrete bunker). Duals are something you should strongly consider, for more than just the obviously output advantage. That also gives you additional placement options to try and 'focus' the bass energy on the seating position.
> 
> All of the units you're looking at are powerful, so no problem there. Given the circumstances though, you might want to lean toward bass reflex designs. The extra output they tend to provide could prove very beneficial for your situation.


Hi Jim! I like the way you think! 
Your quote above is from a different thread which discusses $2k subs. so you may be wondering where I'm going with this. Well let me tell you! I'm on a concrete slab as well. That may not explain my poor (uncorrected) FR; but it does explain why I feel there's more to be mined in those subterranean depths. 

A new upgrade bug has bitten before the old one has taken hold. I'm not slamming the SB13u . Far from it. It does everything better than the REL except music-only, which is a non-issue for this system. I could happily live with it for a long time, but it's opened a deeper door in my heart. Like Willis said, I don't want to walk away (or in this case, sit still) with buyer's remorse; so I've been considering, "How low do you you want to spend."

*Even though space is limited to a single location in the front right corner, a PB13u will fit there. Do you think that sub would work better in my current room? How about the PSA S3000i?* Also, do you have any opinion on the SVS PC13u? Don't worry, all answers are legally binding (lol)!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

LOL, Lou...you crack me up. 

The PB13u is a beast and yes it would do better because its ported and simply larger. Im still not sure how the SB13u is not as good with music as its a huge step up from the Rel and no where near the same ballpark. Musically it should be far better. Your room is difficult because of its size and you may need to do some more consultation with GIK and see what they recommend for acoustic design.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

The SB13u disappears better than the REL (or is easier to integrate in that regard) and digs much deeper. It's brought my system to life like never before. Deja vu. I said the same thing when adding the REL into a sub-less system. Now, I'm not saying that swapping in the SB13u yielded the same performance increase. But I am saying that music appreciation through the SB13u has more to do with the rest of the speaker compliment than it does with the sub. That's three decent, matched B&W's up front and two somewhat unsatisfying and outclassed PSB surrounds. I'm gauging those against the REL and against a stellar pair of Revel Salons. Aside from extreme extension, it's been said that their bass rivals that of many a subwoofer. So they're a hard act to follow, especially in terms of timbral presentation through the crossover range. The REL integrated better in that regard, but don't ask me for the graphs to prove it because I haven't any. *HAH! :bigsmile:* So whether it has to do with my musical frame of reference or preference, I do think you're right that I need to give the SB13u a fair shake by following through with the rest of the sub integration process. GIK's product's seem like they're better suited to the small room than huge cylindrical traps. Did you happen to catch my new mounting method in Post #50? Yup, hung from the ceiling! And this time, I do have the improvements graphed! *Double-HAH! :bigsmile: :bigsmile:*

Aside from liking to listen to music, I like to listen to myself babble. I think I'm done for now. Thank you for listening!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Oh, dont you just love the feeling you can do better...It never ends.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Just spoke with Ed Mullen over at SVS. He too, says the SB13u should be digging much deeper. He's having me take and send him some measurements that will help him help me!! And I haven't even bought anything from them !!! Awesome customer service. Off the bus soon, then home for more measuring. Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Great news :T


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Hi Jim! I like the way you think!
> Your quote above is from a different thread which discusses $2k subs. so you may be wondering where I'm going with this. Well let me tell you! I'm on a concrete slab as well. That may not explain my poor (uncorrected) FR; but it does explain why I feel there's more to be mined in those subterranean depths.
> 
> A new upgrade bug has bitten before the old one has taken hold. I'm not slamming the SB13u . Far from it. It does everything better than the REL except music-only, which is a non-issue for this system. I could happily live with it for a long time, but it's opened a deeper door in my heart. Like Willis said, I don't want to walk away (or in this case, sit still) with buyer's remorse; so I've been considering, "How low do you you want to spend."
> ...


Your FR is irrespective of the rooms construction, so you're right there. What you hear/feel is though, and that's the part which takes horsepower to overcome.

I'm the one who usually advocates restraint - because I actually do feel you can have more subwoofer than is practical - but seeing as how you have the upgrade bug _before _you've even purchased anything leads me to believe maybe prudence is not best here. Couple that with the fact you're limited to a single unit and maybe throwing (almost) all caution to the wind is the way to go. Given that, what about something over the top?

The PSA V3600 would serve you better than the S3000. Admittedly it's not a wall-flower, but it's hard to imagine you wanting to upgrade any time soon. It's only a few hundred more than the S3000 as well, so it strikes me as quite a bargain. If that's a bit too much for your tastes then perhaps a JTR Captivator 1400 might suffice. Industrial strength, yet not as large or visible as the V3600.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Just spoke with Ed Mullen over at SVS. He too, says the SB13u should be digging much deeper. He's having me take and send him some measurements that will help him help me!! And I haven't even bought anything from them !!! Awesome customer service. Off the bus soon, then home for more measuring. Sent from my iPad using HTShack


 now that's what I'm talking bout! Customer service at its finest. Really interested to see what comes of this.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Oops, Willis, got so wrapped up in prepping graphs for Ed that I almost forgot about all my buddies back at The 'Shack. Overlaying graphs the day after they were made lends perspective ( especially when several measurement sets are taken for each of several sub locations and orientations ). To whomever reads this and would like a tip: be sure to carefully organize your measurements into meaningful folders and give each a descriptive name both within REW, and on your hard drive. You'll thank yourself later that you don't have to figure out what sy35dt2_23may15.mdat means. Anyway, I could more easily decide which graphs to compare aft a good night's rest. Overlaying a baseline measurement of just the sub at the LP with others that had PEQ applied showed that the sub was responding properly to outside control. Ed had me take a near field measurement, too. That one showed the sub's driver along with amp firmware, were also okay. We both suspect room modes and sub location, but that's not news to any of you. Hope to hear back from him today, but if not I can still go it alone. Plenty of experimentation to be had, and lots of fun!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lots to say. Not lots o time. That's good advice. Sorting through multiple sweeps without knowing what they are is futile, and a little like slamming your head in a door. Good luck with ED.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Just a quick update:
Made good use of the quiiet hours between midnight and 4am to measure, evaluate, and experiment. Got really brave and tried the standard Dolby HT speaker locations for L/C/R. You can see the difference between old & new mains positions by the... what is that? ..._duct tape_ on the floor. So all front speakers are the same distance from the LP. Watching King Kong (Jack Black version), off screen action now pans smoothly across the front stage. And even braver--I am the bravest of brave HAH! I mean "NI" ...errr "Nuuuu"--I moved the sub out from the corner into position where I found best response via the pseudo sub-crawl (mic at ear level at 10 points around perimeter and interior of room). The pic below shows the beastie's at it's new next-to-best location (compromise between SQ and LAF). The best one is centered on the front of the closet. I think response is better there because of the higher nearby mass (of stuff inside the closet!). So far with the material I've played, the sub doesn't seem to be too close. It blends as well as it did before, but gained a few dB in extension below 24Hz. Not done yet, though. Anxious to get Ed's opinion after I send him the new plots and pics!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> Your FR is irrespective of the rooms construction, so you're right there. What you hear/feel is though, and that's the part which takes horsepower to overcome. I'm the one who usually advocates restraint - because I actually do feel you can have more subwoofer than is practical - but seeing as how you have the upgrade bug before you've even purchased anything leads me to believe maybe prudence is not best here. Couple that with the fact you're limited to a single unit and maybe throwing (almost) all caution to the wind is the way to go. Given that, what about something over the top? The PSA V3600 would serve you better than the S3000. Admittedly it's not a wall-flower, but it's hard to imagine you wanting to upgrade any time soon. It's only a few hundred more than the S3000 as well, so it strikes me as quite a bargain. If that's a bit too much for your tastes then perhaps a JTR Captivator 1400 might suffice. Industrial strength, yet not as large or visible as the V3600.


Yeah forget about watts; I want my sub to stretch into horsepower territory! I wonder: if you buy "too much sub" for now, can't you just turn it down? IOW won't auto EQ tame the response, or will the sub still overpower a small room just because it can? Was just thinking I could save money in the long run by getting something for a bigger expected HT room down the road.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Morning Lou! I won't speak for Jim here, but I would say your instinct is correct. The curve will be what it's gonna be, and that can be more or less tended to. Once you have that figured, it's largely a matter of taste. So yes, you can just turn it down. I think you're smart to look at it this way, if a different room is in your future. Any progress with Ed? The last post of graphs looks much better (from what I recall). Still falling off too early though.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Yeah forget about watts; I want my sub to stretch into horsepower territory! I wonder: if you buy "too much sub" for now, can't you just turn it down? IOW won't auto EQ tame the response, or will the sub still overpower a small room just because it can? Was just thinking I could save money in the long run by getting something for a bigger expected HT room down the road.


You certainly can turn it down, but that's not really what I was trying to relay.

When it comes to subwoofers a certain degree of excess capacity is necessary. The additional headroom ensures dynamics don't suffer when the content gets loud and/or deep. Everyone should have some excess, but what happens when you transition into _excessive_? That's the restraint I was alluding to. Take cars for example.

A Bugatti Veyron is capable of speeds approaching 250MPH, while a Lamborgini Aventador can "only" muster about 190MPH. Since there's zero possibility you'll ever be able to drive an Aventador flat out on any American road, why does one need a Veyron? Answer is, you don't. In that case it becomes a want, not a need - you'll never be able to take the Lamborgini to the limits, so for sure the Bugatti will be underutilized. Could you drive it slower (turn down the volume)? Sure, but then you're wasting an awful lot; the Veyron costs about 10x what the Aventador does, so you're paying dearly for something that will never be realized.

If you have the money for the Bugatti and simply want one that's different, but you can certainly enjoy yourself and still have more than you need with the Lambo. That's the moderation I try to get across, but I certainly don't begrudge people who stuff a dozen 18" drivers into a 2000 ft^3 room. It's their money, and if they only want to use 20% of what they bought than who am I to tell them otherwise? I think some headroom is a good thing, but only to the point of diminishing returns. When additional capability no longer brings any discernible benefit is when I start to back away.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I agree with JMan, more often than not there is no need to "Over-Exeed" what your needs are by more than say 25% or so. Yes if you suddenly find yourself in possession of gobs of cash and find a bigger room then you may wish to buy up. I would not worry about having enough when one moves in that direction. 
It may a be bit like saying my B&W's fit this room but not the new 10,000 cubic foot room I will be buying some day. Nope, ya gets what ya needs and change as needed. The car example is really good. 

For the longest time I had a couple small Velodyne MiniVee's ( Stunning Performers) in my 2300 foot^3 room and for music they kept pace at all times, more than I needed actually. I never had to turn them above half to obtain sheer madness bottom end. I bought the PSA because I wanted to go a bit lower than the Velo's could but not LOUDER, only 10-12hz lower, for movies. I would have thought your REL would be good for that room but I am obviously wrong here. If we ever get together, I would be happy to bring the Velo just for you to be stunned. 

YMMV.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> You certainly can turn it down, but that's not really what I was trying to relay.
> 
> When it comes to subwoofers a certain degree of excess capacity is necessary. The additional headroom ensures dynamics don't suffer when the content gets loud and/or deep. Everyone should have some excess, but what happens when you transition into _excessive_? *That's the restraint I was alluding to.*
> .
> ...


:T Well said. The picture is quite clear now. I believe I'll take the restraints! :coocoo:
So would the same principle apply to bottom-end _extension_? Assuming credible reporting, would a sub rated for 10Hz -6dB go lower in my room than one rated at 15Hz -6dB? I imagine the answer lies with real world performance. I also think that a particular sub's in-room extension can't be reliably predicted because of the myriad factors involved in small room acoustics. That means you don't know until you try, correct?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> I agree with JMan, more often than not there is no need to "Over-Exeed" what your needs are by more than say 25% or so. Yes if you suddenly find yourself in possession of gobs of cash and find a bigger room then you may wish to buy up. I would not worry about having enough when one moves in that direction.
> It may a be bit like saying my B&W's fit this room but not the new 10,000 cubic foot room I will be buying some day. *Nope, ya gets what ya needs and change as needed.* The car example is really good.
> 
> For the longest time I had a couple small Velodyne MiniVee's ( Stunning Performers) in my 2300 foot^3 room and for music they kept pace at all times, more than I needed actually. I never had to turn them above half to obtain sheer madness bottom end. I bought the PSA because I wanted to go a bit lower than the Velo's could but not LOUDER, only 10-12hz lower, for movies. *I would have thought your REL would be good for that room but I am obviously wrong here.* If we ever get together, I would be happy to bring the Velo just for you to be stunned.
> ...


Hi Jack. Thanks for the the thoughtful response. No gobs of cash here! Both you and Jim are right, I need to stop worrying about what might be. Even if I did get a bigger room, I'd need a second sub for good SQ and might not be able to find a twin for whatever I get now. As for my sub, the REL T-9 satisfies with impact, dynamics, and finesse. It's just missing extreme LF below about 30Hz. Now that I've demo'd a more capable unit (the SVS SB13 Ultra), it's hard to look back. As for your Velodyne, bring it over. But I should warn you that my house is like Hotel California... it'll never leave (lol)! :innocent:


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

You are too funny Lou, too funny.
I always wonder what a REL sounds like as well, I read nothing but good things about them in way of integrating in the audio system, especially for music as they have the same problem in that they do not plumb to the core of the earth. I am sure the SVS will scratch the core for sure, just hope than no molten earth follows the sound into your room....that would be bad.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> So would the same principle apply to bottom-end _extension_? Assuming credible reporting, would a sub rated for 10Hz -6dB go lower in my room than one rated at 15Hz -6dB? I imagine the answer lies with real world performance. I also think that a particular sub's in-room extension can't be reliably predicted because of the myriad factors involved in small room acoustics. That means you don't know until you try, correct?


Assuming the two measurements were done in a compatible manner then the 10Hz unit would be able to play lower in room. The reason being is whatever your room gain is will be the same for every subwoofer, provided it's able to play the frequency of course. In other words, if room gain starts at 30Hz - but your sub can't play that low - then you won't get any. If it can extend to at least 30Hz, then you will.

A generic prediction of what a sub can do in room doesn't seem realistic to me. There are so many variables that it's almost impossible to accurately estimate. With some information about the specifics you can make certain assumptions, but a carte blanche statement probably has a margin for error larger then what might be considered statically insignificant.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> Assuming the two measurements were done in a compatible manner then the 10Hz unit would be able to play lower in room. The reason being is whatever your room gain is will be the same for every subwoofer, provided it's able to play the frequency of course. In other words, if room gain starts at 30Hz - but your sub can't play that low - then you won't get any. If it can extend to at least 30Hz, then you will.


Okay, so let's take this one step further with another hypothetical:
Suppose we have two subs: one realistically rated down to 15Hz and another to 20Hz. If room gain is 30Hz, does that mean neither sub will play below 30Hz? In other words, does room gain limit how low a sub will play? 

My reason for asking is that *I'm trying to decide on rated cutoff frequency within the bounds of reason for my situation.* The SB13u goes louder in my room than I need, but has less low end than my room seems to support (currently working with Ed at SVS to try for lowest bass). *I wonder if a sub with a lower cutoff will squeeze more bottom-end out of the room.* I feel like I'm starting to ask silly questions and may be leading myself in circles, so thanks for your patience!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> I agree with JMan, more often than not there is no need to "Over-Exeed" what your needs are by more than say 25% or so. Yes if you suddenly find yourself in possession of gobs of cash and find a bigger room then you may wish to buy up. I would not worry about having enough when one moves in that direction.
> 
> ...I bought the PSA because I wanted to go a bit lower than the Velo's could but not LOUDER, only 10-12hz lower, for movies. I would have thought your REL would be good for that room but I am obviously wrong here.... YMMV.


The REL is only rated 6dB down at 28Hz, which is anemic by HT standards. I think it was Willis who said I'm now "Uprooted from Contentment." I wouldn't have known what I was missing if I hadn't of borrowed the SB13u. But as I come closer to pulling the trigger, I grow more conservative with my spending plans. So now I'm having second thoughts about pulling the trigger on the SB13u or the comparable PSA, especially considering Jim's comments concerning excess. I wonder what the Chane SBE-118 would do for me? Need to do some more research to see if a "Value" sub is right for me. I'm afraid I've been spoiled though, 24Hz frequency drop off corner or not.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Some rooms may not be able to reproduce the lowest of notes as they are quite long in frequency so adding subs or nonstaining a 3 18" PSa may not do you justice. Bass notes have to unfold to work properly and need some space but I do not know the physics of all this stuff so yes an expert is good. I know my living room supports a substantive amount of bass well below the levels of my man cave.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

BlueRockinLou said:


> The REL is only rated 6dB down at 28Hz, which is anemic by HT standards. I think it was Willis who said I'm now "Uprooted from Contentment." I wouldn't have known what I was missing if I hadn't of borrowed the SB13u. But as I come closer to pulling the trigger, I grow more conservative with my spending plans. So now I'm having second thoughts about pulling the trigger on the SB13u or the comparable PSA, especially considering Jim's comments concerning excess. I wonder what the Chane SBE-118 would do for me? Need to do some more research to see if a "Value" sub is right for me. I'm afraid I've been spoiled though, 24Hz frequency drop off corner or not.


Give a call to Tom at PSA, he knows all as he is one that started SVS and was able to help me a great deal. 
They have a good deal on one of the 15" subs at $650 or so delivered. Tell him jack sent you


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Here's a little fun reading Lou. Strap your head down, it's liable to start spinning!
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=80


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> Some rooms may not be able to reproduce the lowest of notes as they are quite long in frequency so adding subs or nonstaining a 3 18" PSa may not do you justice. Bass notes have to unfold to work properly and need some space but I do not know the physics of all this stuff so yes an expert is good. I know my living room supports a substantive amount of bass well below the levels of my man cave.


That's what I meant to ask! Thank you for the confirmation I was looking for. It all seems so simple with 20-20 Hindsight. I may be doing everything right for my sub evaluation in terms of measuring, experimenting with sub location, etc. but if I'm fighting a room that supports bass only down to 24Hz then buying a sub that's designed to hit 10Hz is as much extreme overkill as it would be if it played to 120dB. Using Jim's car analogy, it'll never get to 200mph on that road. So to save money, it sounds like I should look for a sub with a higher real-world low-f rating. Oh wait, I already have one... The REL. think I went too far in the other direction.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

BlueRockinLou said:


> That's what I meant to ask! Thank you for the confirmation I was looking for. It all seems so simple with 20-20 Hindsight. I may be doing everything right for my sub evaluation in terms of measuring, experimenting with sub location, etc. but if I'm fighting a room that supports bass only down to 24Hz then buying a sub that's designed to hit 10Hz is as much extreme overkill as it would be if it played to 120dB. Using Jim's car analogy, it'll never get to 200mph on that road. So to save money, it sounds like I should look for a sub with a higher real-world low-f rating. Oh wait, I already have one... The REL. think I went too far in the other direction.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using HTShack


Bingo, 
I am not the know all dude so it is only in way of experimentation (I am not wealthy enough nor important enough to get one of everything) and I have found that be it speakers or subwoofers, some things just do not work. One cannot drive either car fast on the pot holed roads in Michigan at most any speed.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lou, what are your room dims again?(crates notwithstanding lol!)


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Lou, what are your room dims again?(crates notwithstanding lol!)


 the 45hz peak makes me think 12.5' is the length. ???


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Maybe this discussion is getting to deep for our head-rooms


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Savjac said:


> Maybe this discussion is getting to deep for our head-rooms


 jack, you May be right. But you may also be going the right direction with the room too small thing. Have Ed send a a PC2000(or plus), and put the difference towards.....
The steeper roll off of the ported sub might help trick the room. I'm loosely going with jims crossover slope thing. (Maybe that's adjustable in Dirac?)


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Mine is ported, the big un that is, and it seems to have somewhat of an advantage over the other sealed subs I had. But I would not cut that into a stone tablet, just my impression, no measurements yet. The fact that the big un and to some effect, the smaller ones have some serious gruntage in certain parts of the room with on occasion the deepest digs going on in the bathroom outside of the cave. That tells me some of the notes do not have enough room to make them happy. Now this is not a problem of course if my new listening chair was a toilet. :dontknow:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> Maybe this discussion is getting to deep for our head-rooms


Now look who's Mr. Funny-hah-hah



willis7469 said:


> Here's a little fun reading Lou. Strap your head down, it's liable to start spinning!
> http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=content&id=80


:dizzy: The take-away is there's no predictable take-away!



willis7469 said:


> Lou, what are your room dims again?(crates notwithstanding lol!)


13'2"L x 8'11"W x 7'9"H 
A room mode calculator I used came up with the quantities shown below. Yes, the axial peak is theoretically centered on 43Hz. That gives us an axial second harmonic of 86Hz. If you look at the tangential modes, they also generate an 84.5Hz fundamental. This is just conjecture, as I have no formal acoustics training, but it seems both of these modes are working together to create the trough in that region. Then again, the trough may not be a room mode, as it responds to EQ and can also be lifted through additive bass contribution from the mains. Deep nulls don't respond to EQ and usually(?) have a much narrower Q.




























willis7469 said:


> the 45hz peak makes me think 12.5' is the length. ???


Close! 43Hz (theoretically of course, Dear Watson!) 



willis7469 said:


> jack, you May be right. But you may also be going the right direction with the room too small thing. Have Ed send a a PC2000(or plus), and put the difference towards.....


*Surrounds!* The Chane M-1 Sale?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> 13'2"L x 8'11"W x 7'9"H


Your room is about 900 ft^3 and made of concrete? :yikes: Man, it doesn't get much tougher than that.



BlueRockinLou said:


> I may be doing everything right for my sub evaluation in terms of measuring, experimenting with sub location, etc. but if I'm fighting a room that supports bass only down to 24Hz then buying a sub that's designed to hit 10Hz is as much extreme overkill as it would be if it played to 120dB. Using Jim's car analogy, it'll never get to 200mph on that road. So to save money, it sounds like I should look for a sub with a higher real-world low-f rating.


Although your room is a borderline nightmare it doesn't mean you can't hit bass well into the teens. If the dimensions were all there was to it then for anyone to get an honest 15Hz they would have to be in a room approaching 40 feet long, which is rarely the case.

Note that my car analogy related to total output, not depth. Having fifty 18" drivers in a room will not play 1 Hz lower than a single unit can. They'll be able to play louder - a _*lot*_ louder - but not deeper. I only advocate restraint when it comes to output, but depth is another story. Get a sub (or subs) that can play as deep as you can afford. That you won't regret.



BlueRockinLou said:


> I wonder what the Chane SBE-118 would do for me? Need to do some more research to see if a "Value" sub is right for me.


Another good option to consider, especially at what Craig is selling them for now.



BlueRockinLou said:


> Okay, so let's take this one step further with another hypothetical:
> Suppose we have two subs: one realistically rated down to 15Hz and another to 20Hz. If room gain is 30Hz, does that mean neither sub will play below 30Hz? In other words, does room gain limit how low a sub will play?


No, it's the exact opposite actually. Once room gain starts it _increases_ the output of all frequencies below that point (to the limit of what the subwoofer can realistically produce, anyway).

For the sake of argument let's say an acoustic suspension subwoofer starts to roll off naturally at 30Hz. Because it's sealed the drop off is 1st order, so 6dB per octave. That means by 15Hz it's down 6dB from 30Hz, assuming no room gain. What happens if you put it in a room where the gain starts at 30Hz? The space itself will help reinforce the response - gain - and instead of it dropping off at 6dB per octave the room begins to level it out instead, similar to a Linkwitz Transform (which is programmed in a DSP).

No finer example of that exists then the response curve of the sealed PSA subs. If you weren't aware of how room gain works you might think they would be anemic, given how high in the frequency range the response begins to drop off. Place one of them in a real-world room though and things change dramatically, because the sound is anything but weak. Why is that? PSA accounts for room gain in their calculations, so they fully anticipate the space will contribute to output. That means less amplifier power used to boost the signal down low, which translates into more headroom for dynamic shifts. Other companies do this as well - PSA isn't alone in that regard - but my point is the room gain phenomenon can almost be counted on to boost the lower frequencies, and when done correctly it's really quite beneficial (I say "almost" because different size rooms will boost different frequencies, so it is a bit of a gamble to select where in the frequency range to start rolling off the output).


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I have just discovered a down side of having my PSA sub.
I decided to give one of my favorite concert BR discs, and dont laugh, This Is It, the Michael Jackson concert made just before he passed.

Anyway, there are certain cuts that not only have deep bass but also have incredible punch. I decided to ahhh turn it up a bit and was diggin the tunes until I realized that it was flipping the dust in the carpet up at me. Had anyone been there I would have been happy and yet way embarrassed. I think the roomba needs to go into overtime for the next few days..


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Holy cow jack! That's awesome.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

theJman said:


> No, it's the exact opposite actually. Once room gain starts it _increases_ the output of all frequencies below that point (to the limit of what the subwoofer can realistically produce, anyway).
> 
> For the sake of argument let's say an acoustic suspension subwoofer starts to roll off naturally at 30Hz. Because it's sealed the drop off is 1st order, so 6dB per octave. That means by 15Hz it's down 6dB from 30Hz, assuming no room gain. What happens if you put it in a room where the gain starts at 30Hz? The space itself will help reinforce the response - gain - and instead of it dropping off at 6dB per octave the room begins to level it out instead, similar to a Linkwitz Transform (which is programmed in a DSP).
> 
> No finer example of that exists then the response curve of the sealed PSA subs. If you weren't aware of how room gain works you might think they would be anemic, given how high in the frequency range the response begins to drop off. Place one of them in a real-world room though and things change dramatically, because the sound is anything but weak. Why is that? PSA accounts for room gain in their calculations, so they fully anticipate the space will contribute to output. That means less amplifier power used to boost the signal down low, which translates into more headroom for dynamic shifts. Other companies do this as well - PSA isn't alone in that regard - but my point is the room gain phenomenon can almost be counted on to boost the lower frequencies, and when done correctly it's really quite beneficial (I say "almost" because different size rooms will boost different frequencies, so it is a bit of a gamble to select where in the frequency range to start rolling off the output).


Excellent explanation!! I never really understood this very clearly. 

And, btw, i bet you're the first person ever to tie the words Lamborghini and moderation together...


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

480dad said:


> Excellent explanation!! I never really understood this very clearly.
> 
> And, btw, i bet you're the first person ever to tie the words Lamborghini and moderation together...


I'm glad my post was able to help!

And you're probably right, "Lamborghini" and "restraint" are generally considered an oxymoron. Similar to "government" "intelligence", "freezer" "burn", "jumbo" "shrimp"...


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Peter Loeser said:


> If it were me I'd unload what you've got and use the cash on a new sub....


2 down, 1 to go!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> Let put it this way, I have the PB13U and it has even more output the the SB Ive never noticed anything coming apart in my room.


_"What a long strange trip its been"
--CSNY_

That verse came to mind as I read back through some of my earlier posts in this thread. How naive can one Lou be? But I am learning, thanks to all of you contributors out there. That's right, you know who you are. Okay, maybe you don't know who you are! Anyway, I find it simply astounding that nothing rattles, buzzes, thumps, or otherwise squawks in sympathy with the newly generated bass notes in my room. But I can't get decent bass below about 20Hz. Go figure. 

_"It just goes to show ya, if it's not one thing it's another!" 
-- Rosanne Rosannadanna _

My "other" is going to be a new strategy to try a sub that's designed to go even lower than the 20Hz (-6dB) rated SVS SB13 Ultra. Tony, you have the ported version, and I won't waste your time with questions about info I can glean off the SVS website. I'd like to know how the Ported Plumber performs on music or music videos (if you use it that way). I realize your room and equipment are different, so feel free to extrapolate. If you've auditioned the sealed version, a short comparison would be much appreciated. TIA :bigsmile:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> Your room is about 900 ft^3 and made of concrete? :yikes: Man, it doesn't get much tougher than that....
> 
> ....I only advocate restraint when it comes to output, but depth is another story. Get a sub (or subs) that can play as deep as you can afford. That you won't regret.


Sorry for not making that clear. My room is only on a concrete slab and has walls of thin gypsum board. But as you've seen, it still has its Achilles Heel. Not sure what to do now. Ed seems to be satisfied with my room response (ref bottom of post #81), but realizes that the dip from about 45-70Hz is unfortunate. I'm not quite sure it's there to stay, though, as I have yet to experiment with traps.

I could be very, very happy with the SB13u but looking at its ported cousin, as well as the offerings over at PSA, I think I might be headed for "excess." Why spend so much for only 20Hz when the others cost the same or less and go lower? Anyone?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> My "other" is going to be a new strategy to try a sub that's designed to go even lower than the 20Hz (-6dB) rated SVS SB13 Ultra. Tony, you have the ported version, and I won't waste your time with questions about info I can glean off the SVS website. I'd like to know how the Ported Plumber performs on music or music videos (if you use it that way). I realize your room and equipment are different, so feel free to extrapolate. If you've auditioned the sealed version, a short comparison would be much appreciated. TIA :bigsmile:


All things being equal, acoustic suspension subwoofers will play lower than bass reflex alignments. Since your room is tiny a ported sub will not be beneficial if what you're after is deep bass. For sure, stick with sealed.

And remember, your room is going to increase the deep bass because of gain. That 20Hz @ -6dB is not relevant in your case. Does Ed know how small the room is?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Sorry for not making that clear. My room is only on a concrete slab and has walls of thin gypsum board. But as you've seen, it still has its Achilles Heel. Not sure what to do now. Ed seems to be satisfied with my room response (ref bottom of post #81), but realizes that the dip from about 45-70Hz is unfortunate. I'm not quite sure it's there to stay, though, as I have yet to experiment with traps.


Have you tried changing the orientation of the sub itself? Moving it 90 degrees and firing into the side wall, or 180 and pointing it into the back wall(s)? You will change those dips. Leave at least 6" of clearance.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> ....And remember, your room is going to increase the deep bass because of gain. That 20Hz @ -6dB is not relevant in your case. Does Ed know how small the room is?


I'm sure you'll give up on me soon if I don't get this right: the rating is not relevant because room gain will push the sub's output lower. But I'm not getting as much as I should, even with different sub orientations and locations. That could be because too much bass is leaking out of the room through the window & hollow door. Oh yes, Ed knows the room dimensions.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> Have you tried changing the orientation of the sub itself? Moving it 90 degrees and firing into the side wall, or 180 and pointing it into the back wall(s)? You will change those dips. Leave at least 6" of clearance.


In corner, fired into it and out of it at different angles and distances. All dismal failures. Future got brighter when moved it in front of mains. I'll try more than just three orientations and talk to Ed some more; maybe even call Tom at PSA eventually. Not that you guys haven't helped. That's not the case at all. I'm just extremely frustrated right now and almost wish I hadn't been enlightened. Now off with my bass self!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I'll try to add something out of my brain cell. Iirc, room gain starts at the 1st mode(565/longest room dim), then rises(or levels off) from that point down, until the sub runs out of extension. The(theoretical) reason is room gain appreciates at +12db per octave. The exact opposite of the roll off of a sealed sub. Balance!!! This may qualify as conjecture since my brain cell isn't that large. One theory says below the 1st mode, extension is difficult at best. (Like a sub driver working below its fs). The other(which I subscribe to) says, that's when it starts working. Why does that ultra give up so early? Don't know....my thinking cap caught on fire, had to put it out.
Edit: have you measured with the door open? Just to see.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> The(theoretical) reason is room gain appreciates at +12db per octave. The exact opposite of the roll off of a sealed sub.


A sealed sub's natural roll-off is 1st order, so 6dB per octave. A ported sub is 2nd order, so that one would be 12dB per octave. Those figures can be altered through electronics, but if unaided it's 6dB for acoustic suspension and 12dB for bass reflex.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

theJman said:


> A sealed sub's natural roll-off is 1st order, so 6dB per octave. A ported sub is 2nd order, so that one would be 12dB per octave. Those figures can be altered through electronics, but if unaided it's 6dB for acoustic suspension and 12dB for bass reflex.


 that's why you're here Jim. To keep guys like me going straight. Thx. I thought I remembered learning that sealed was 12db and ported was 24db per octave. Or is that electronic doubling of the roll off slope for protection? Or do I remember incorrectly?
Edit: is my theory at least right?


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

Not to pee in anyone!s punch bowl, but geez Lou, can you just sit back and enjoy s movie with this setup? Numbers are irrelevant if you can get into s story and feel some bass tickle your chest hairs.....


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Chromejob said:


> Not to pee in anyone!s punch bowl, but geez Lou, can you just sit back and enjoy s movie with this setup? Numbers are irrelevant if you can get into s story and feel some bass tickle your chest hairs.....


It's in an engineer's nature to desire and soak up knowledge. This has been a great learning experience for myself, as I imagine it has been for the hundreds of thread followers; or maybe it's just been entertaining, I really don't care. I've reports on the movies I enjoyed, and while no expert, I believe I've become enlightened enough in the art of woofing that I least of all wish to repeat my past mistake of not buying enough sub. I'm not rich, but I've had a taste of real sub-bass. I'd like more, so if delving into the technical aspects will get me there, so be. Your concern for my punch has been noted. Here, have a smiley

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

That was a very refrained and classy response Lou. I've enjoyed reading the thread.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

I just wish he'd hurry up and pick one for pete's sake. I'm an inch shorter, 5 lbs heavier and little grayer just since he started this thread.lddude:


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Sometimes I wish I'd have been more patient through this journey. I could have saved myself a lot of money had I gotten some things right the first time. Kudos to Lou for putting in the time, effort, and research. Although the constant upgrading is fun…


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

i r an engineer too. Sometimes we don't know when we're done engineering. i admit its been fun poking on Lou here and there. Do you really ever get things "right" though? it's only right until a new cool thing catches your eye then you start imagining, thinking, analyzing, daydreaming....


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Chromejob said:


> .....Lou, can you just sit back and enjoy s movie with this setup?





480dad said:


> I just wish he'd hurry up and pick one for pete's sake. I'm an inch shorter, 5 lbs heavier and little grayer just since he started this thread.lddude:





480dad said:


> i r an engineer too. Sometimes we don't know when we're done engineering.


:T It's all good! Industry has a saying, "It's time to shoot the engineer and move to production." It looks like the votes are in to get a move on, and I tend to agree. Now I'm just waiting for the old sub to sell, but it's not a deal breaker; just need to decide which new sub to get. Tony was right: once I listened to the SB13u, I wouldn't want to return it. But another chapter begins! Gotta put those grinding gears in my head to use giving top contenders a fair shake. Here we grow again!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Lou, you've been struck with a bad case of "upgradeious" fever. There is no cure.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> Lou, you've been struck with a bad case of "upgraditis" fever. There is no cure.


 truer words have never been spoken. The only thing is pacification.


----------



## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

In software dev we call it "scope creep" (actually a PM term). :>


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Chromejob said:


> In software dev we call it "scope creep" (actually a PM term). :>


 sounds like a form of ADD! Lol


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Chromejob said:


> In software dev we call it "scope creep" (actually a PM term). :>


 Sounds like a medical condition brought on by a night of bad choices to me.


----------



## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

Savjac said:


> Bingo,
> I am not the know all dude so it is only in way of experimentation (I am not wealthy enough nor important enough to get one of everything) and I have found that be it speakers or subwoofers, some things just do not work. One cannot drive either car fast on the pot holed roads in Michigan at most any speed.


Hey the roads aren't that bad!


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

480dad said:


> Do you really ever get things "right" though? it's only right until a new cool thing catches your eye then you start imagining, thinking, analyzing, daydreaming....





JBrax said:


> Sometimes I wish I'd have been more patient through this journey. I could have saved myself a lot of money had I gotten some things right the first time.... Although the constant upgrading is fun…





tonyvdb said:


> Lou, you've been struck with a bad case of "upgradeious" fever. There is no cure.


Yup, I'm hopeless: hit the ceiling in 2ch so just haaaaad to start over in home theater, dincha Lou? Here's to your multiple roadsters in your multiple garage bays in multiple states of tune. Hip-hip, Hooray!


----------



## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> that's why you're here Jim. To keep guys like me going straight. Thx. I thought I remembered learning that sealed was 12db and ported was 24db per octave. Or is that electronic doubling of the roll off slope for protection? Or do I remember incorrectly?
> Edit: is my theory at least right?


The amount of boost provided by room gain doesn't change drastically once it kicks in so it's not exactly like a Linkwitz Transform, but it mimics that to an extent. Even though 6dB per octave is considered gradual it's still steeper than the rise from your room, so eventually the effect no longer boosts your bass response enough to fully compensate for the downward curve.


----------



## Ed Mullen (Jul 28, 2006)

theJman said:


> The amount of boost provided by room gain doesn't change drastically once it kicks in so it's not exactly like a Linkwitz Transform, but it mimics that to an extent. Even though 6dB per octave is considered gradual it's still steeper than the rise from your room, so eventually the effect no longer boosts your bass response enough to fully compensate for the downward curve.


He would have to level match the best of the in-room FRs and quasi-anechoic FR (which I had him obtain with a close-mic sweep) to evaluate the true transfer function of the room. 

Generally I would agree with you, but on occasion I've seen unusual and unexpected variations in the room gain transfer function, which ultimately were traced to things like long HVAC ductwork, chimney vents, large window panes, long hallways, etc.

The quasi-anechoic roll-off slope of the SB13U is a bit steeper than 12 dB/octave (which is the theoretical maximum transfer function from a monopole in a perfectly rigid vessel). So it will not measure ruler flat to 10 Hz. 

With that said, I have seen (and measured) much better in-room extension from the SB13U in similar size rooms. So something is hurting the transfer function in that room below about 23 Hz. I suspect it's the large floor/ceiling window pane (which can flex heavily at certain frequencies based on the unbraced dims of the pane), but of course that is only speculation.


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> The amount of boost provided by room gain doesn't change drastically once it kicks in so it's not exactly like a Linkwitz Transform, but it mimics that to an extent. Even though 6dB per octave is considered gradual it's still steeper than the rise from your room, so eventually the effect no longer boosts your bass response enough to fully compensate for the downward curve.





Ed Mullen said:


> He would have to level match the best of the in-room FRs and quasi-anechoic FR (which I had him obtain with a close-mic sweep) to evaluate the true transfer function of the room.
> 
> Generally I would agree with you, but on occasion I've seen unusual and unexpected variations in the room gain transfer function, which ultimately were traced to things like long HVAC ductwork, chimney vents, large window panes, long hallways, etc.
> 
> ...


Thanks, guys for the technical discussion--over my head but am learning! Ed, you've been instrumental in improving the SB13u's performance in my room; just wanted to let you know how grateful I am. I ran out of time last weekend and have a 4hr/day commute during the week, but I'll be back on track testing again this weekend. I'll run the low-f sweeps to pin down whether or not the window resonates. Don't know if it was wishful thinking, but had the HT door open awhile last night during casual viewing (because our A/C is on the blink), and noticed more articulate bass. It wasn't a scientific comparison, as the source material was better than that which immediately preceded it with the closed, but worth looking into. I'll also investigate blocking off the HVAC vent. Man, I hope they get that fixed before the weather gets really hot!

Thanks again,
Lou

EDIT: Did I mention lately that I love this sub? Well, I do because it
Blends extremely well with other speakers
Silent unless "spoken to" by its assigned bandwidth
Clean and free of power compression even at uncomfortable listening levels
Infuses explosive dynamics into HQ source material
Classy Chassis!


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

_Pictorial progress of this weekend's subwoofer dial-in marathon... _

*Friday Evening/Night:*

:snoring: 


*Saturday Morning:*
:yawn:
:blink:
:reading:
onder:
:nerd: (IQ increases!)

*Saturday Afternoon:*
:sweat: :sweat: (moving this)
:sweat: :sweat: (that)
:sweat: :sweat: (and the other)
:hush: :wits-end: :hush:
:justdontknow: 
:surrender:
:meal:

*Saturday Evening:*
:justdontknow: :help: 
:reading: onder:
:flex: :flex: (second wind)
:sweat: :sweat: (moving this)
:sweat: :sweat: (that)
:sweat: :sweat: (and the other)

*Saturday Night:*
:dizzy:
:hsd:
:TT

*Sunday:*
:bigsmile: :jiggy: (experience HT!)


*View from LP (Sub & Tubes - Lower):*








*View from LP (Sub & Tubes - Upper):*








*View from TV (Rear 20" Tubes - Far):*








*Rear 20" Tubes - Near with CD Size Reference):*








*Rear 20" Tubes - Side:*








*SVS SB13u - Top:*








*SVS SB13u - Best In-room Response Yet (Sub+Mains After Dirac)*


----------



## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

The way you did those emoticons was really clever! You probably didn't need to add a word and I still would have understood what happened.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Wow! Lou Ray! That looks so much better. Great job. Perseverance pays off. I don't want to kill the mood, but what is that big V all about?


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

That dip looks like a crossover phase issue. Try adjusting the phase and take readings again.


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

So for those of you who'd just like the short story, I feel like I've dialed-in the SB13u as good as it's going to get given my current skill level with REW, Dirac, and room treatment. Wrangling in another 16" diameter trap along with two 20" models did the trick for part of the previous trouble region from 45 to 100 Hz. It's now smoothed-out except for a narrow band notch from about 70 to 100Hz. The sub also gave up a few more Hz on the bottom end as a result of both manipulating Dirac's generic house curve, and of adjusting sub/mains positions.

I went through quite a few iterations of trying different sub and bass trap locations/orientations throughout the room coupled with a variety of pre/pro settings for Dirac speaker size, crossover and sub slope. REW was indispensible in getting the FR and decay times as good as possible before running Dirac. Care was taken to keep the mic positioned the same for all REW measurements, and for Dirac's first one (center of sweet spot). The remaining mic positions for Dirac were kept within a +/-6inch window around the SS. 

_The good:_
More dynamic than before with better extension and much flatter FR.

_The bad:_
Sound seems to jump between sub and front stage (Caused by dip between 70 and 100?)

_The ugly:_
Sub can now be readily localized depending on source material (may need to lower xover's for L/C/R).


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> The way you did those emoticons was really clever! You probably didn't need to add a word and I still would have understood what happened.





willis7469 said:


> Wow! Lou Ray! That looks so much better.


Thank ewe. Thank-ewe verrreh muchh-huh!



willis7469 said:


> Great job. Perseverance pays off. I don't want to kill the mood, but what is that big V all about?





tonyvdb said:


> That dip looks like a crossover phase issue. Try adjusting the phase and take readings again.


Oh how I would like to do that, but this pre-owned unit is not certified. I am the only certifiable unit here! And I say the plate amp's DSP section is not working properly. Followed user manual and phone help, but the DSP is not cooperating. Dirac has no provision that I know of for manipulating phase, so am trying to cook up Plan-B before I need to return the sub.


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> ....I'll run the low-f sweeps to pin down whether or not the window resonates. ....I'll also investigate blocking off the HVAC vent.


Quick Update:
The window resonates at many low frequencies, but not alarmingly so. I suppose I could squash any deleterious effects by boarding it up and stuffing the cavity with acoustic foam. Seems like a lot of work for questionable results. And even if covering the HVAC vent worked, I couldn't enjoy watching anything during the summer, because the plasma and power amp would uncomfortably raise ambient temperature.

If I can address the last remaining FR dip, window flexure and vent interference will dwindle away as possible sources of the problem. I think Tony's on to something with adjusting phase in the crossover region. On to Plan-B!


----------



## phazewolf (Feb 5, 2012)

On the Avr the delay as most likely know should be set to 0 for all the channels. However I found that setting the sub channel to like 8 feet fixed the hole my setup had which also uses Dirac. Move the sub's delay setting a foot at a time and remeasure and see what that does.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Be very careful with adjusting the distance settings in the receiver Audyssey is usually very good at setting them accurately. The distance is not usually actual distance but rather delay to the listening position. use the phase adjustment on the rear of the sub not on the receiver.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Simply moving the delay in the avr can effect the impulse response negatively in a way that Lou already mentioned. Once you hear that you can't unhear and it's irritating.(worse for music) I think Tony's right that most of the time distance is set fairly well. This is usually a reference to how the mic sees the room, not the actual distance. Shorter version than earlier post. XO test tone, spl meter, phase knob, 45sec.


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

phazewolf said:


> On the Avr the delay as most likely know should be set to 0 for all the channels. However I found that setting the sub channel to like 8 feet fixed the hole my setup had which also uses Dirac. Move the sub's delay setting a foot at a time and remeasure and see what that does.


Your idea is a good one! Maybe you're saying the same thing as Tony; or maybe your version of Dirac is different from mine (there are several out there (PC, stand-alone DSP box, AVR, etc.). But my pre/pro has no phase or delay settings for Dirac DSP functions. Even if it did, my user's manual specifically warns against changing settings after Dirac filters have been generated and downloaded. Unpredictable and undesirable results occur under those circumstances, because Dirac conducts meticulous calculations (just like Audyssey) to derive the proper system settings.

Just in case someone's interested, phase and distance settings are not user-adjustable parameters for the Dirac DSP mode on the Emotiva XMC-1. I don't know if that's different from other Dirac versions. The only settings available to me are:
Speaker size (small, large, none)
Speaker crossover from 60 to 120Hz in 10Hz increments)
Sub crossover slope (12dB or 24dB per octave)
Sub type (none, mono, dual mono, stereo)


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> ....The distance is not usually actual distance but rather delay to the listening position. use the phase adjustment on the rear of the sub not on the receiver.





willis7469 said:


> ....I think Tony's right that most of the time distance is set fairly well. This is usually a reference to how the mic sees the room, not the actual distance. Shorter version than earlier post. XO test tone, spl meter, phase knob, 45sec.


It sounds like it's easier to integrate a sub if it has a _variable_ phase control, rather than just a 0/180 switch. Luckily, all the subs on my short list have the variable version.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> It sounds like it's easier to integrate a sub if it has a variable phase control, rather than just a 0/180 switch. Luckily, all the subs on my short list have the variable version.


 Id say it certainly is. Luckily that sb has one too.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Trying to scramble to get done by lunchtime... wouldn't want to be productive during regular business hours - HAH! Oh, hi boss :R

Apologies if this is a double or cross post, but I think I left everyone out in the cold as to what I've been using for demo material of late. Watched "The Last Stand" with Ahnolt Schwarzenegger. Here's an excerpt from our very own movie review (I heard/experienced most of what's described! I feel like I have a real HT now, but I know I've still a long way to go to meet up with the big boys.):

Audio 
Now THIS is what I call an action movie audio track! The 7.1 DTS-HD MA hits you in the chest from the first few minutes and doesn’t stop pounding away till the credits stop rolling. Calling it bombastic would be an understatement. Filled with gut wrenching LFE all throughout and with some stunning use of surrounds this is a superb audio track from beginning to end. Dialogue is very well balanced and locked in the center channel as it should be. Dynamic range is very wide, without feeling like the rest of the effects are drowning out the dialogue. Gunshots sound like they are sonic attacks and shotgun blasts make you feel like your eardrums are going to rupture. The surrounds are used often and with much aplomb, whether it be the sound of footsteps scrabbling through the gravel streets, or whistling of bullets going past your ears. Each sound is impeccably replicated and presented.


----------



## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> The window resonates at many low frequencies, but not alarmingly so. I suppose I could squash any deleterious effects by boarding it up and stuffing the cavity with acoustic foam. Seems like a lot of work for questionable results. And even if covering the HVAC vent worked, I couldn't enjoy watching anything during the summer, because the plasma and power amp would uncomfortably raise ambient temperature.
> 
> If I can address the last remaining FR dip, window flexure and vent interference will dwindle away as possible sources of the problem. I think Tony's on to something with adjusting phase in the crossover region. On to Plan-B!


If you have to board up doors and reconstruct HVAC vents to achieve a desirable FR then you're getting to the extreme end of the spectrum. Because of that, it may be time to consider if it's worth the effort in the long run. To me those seem like 'grasping at straws' solutions, and I suspect they would provide limited (if any) benefits.

I work at the high-end of the computer field and some times when troubleshooting issues you have to go to the extreme, but at a certain point my sixth sense will tell me "wait a minute, this is getting a bit out of hand". When it does I know the path I'm taking is probably not the one that will give me the best results, and it's at that point I generally take a step back and re-evaluate the direction I'm going in. That's just my 02 though...


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lou, a couple (fairly) recent movies that I found to have very nuanced and textured bass were ninja turtles. Very good use of different bass sounds and sweeps. The Avalanche scene is especially of note. Can you sit through it? Dunno. 
World war Z. Lots of good stuff here too. Less variety of technique. Of note here is a scene in the middle(?) where there's a particular explosion. This scene is awesome with depth and output that always leaves me with a dumb smile on my face. The opening scene in hurt locker also flexes my Sheetrock.


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> Have you tried changing the orientation of the sub itself? Moving it 90 degrees and firing into the side wall, or 180 and pointing it into the back wall(s)? You will change those dips. Leave at least 6" of clearance.


The PSA S3000i and XS30se both have dual, opposing drivers (fire at 180 degree opposite directions). I'm not trying to second guess the designer, but doesn't that wreak havoc with phase? I wonder how they account for that.


EDIT: Tom at PSA relayed that the drivers are in close enough proximity to each other that phase interference is not an issue.


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> If you have to board up doors and reconstruct HVAC vents to achieve a desirable FR then you're getting to the extreme end of the spectrum. Because of that, it may be time to consider if it's worth the effort in the long run. To me those seem like 'grasping at straws' solutions, and I suspect they would provide limited (if any) benefits.
> 
> I work at the high-end of the computer field and some times when troubleshooting issues you have to go to the extreme, but at a certain point my sixth sense will tell me "wait a minute, this is getting a bit out of hand". When it does I know the path I'm taking is probably not the one that will give me the best results, and it's at that point I generally take a step back and re-evaluate the direction I'm going in. That's just my 02 though...


Discovering a problem with a solution of little or no benefit... $5
Trying to solve that problem knowing it's of little benefit... $100
Taking Jim's advice, getting out cheaper and younger... _Priceless_

Yeah, not much motivation to pursue those avenues now that I've semi-successfully integrated the SB13u . Your 2¢ will instead be put to good use taming that nasty dip. And now that I know that my room can support subsonic bass, I want to try one that goes deeper. I'll put an order in at PSA by the close of business today for either their S3000i or their XS30se. Dual 15" and spec'd down to about 11 Hz in-room -- uh oh oh oh uh oh (Tim the Tool Man Taylor grunts). Strap a 442 onto that amp and really make it rumble uh uh oh oh oh uh oh!!!


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

*Re: Official Power Sound Audio (PSA) Thread*

*Hmmm.... What could this be?*








*My dog's not afraid of this monster*








*I think I'll listen to it from here*








*Will this fit anywhere???*


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Silly? It's blocking the bottom woofer of the right main speaker. Measurements show it will fit behind the speaker with only inches to spare on all sides. I think SQ will suffer, but will be measuring and tweaking this weekend. I'm also going to try a radical rearrangement by dividing the stack of 4 album crates into 2 pair. Each stacked pair of 2 will fit between a L/R main and its nearest existing stack (basically in the same position as the S3000i is now in the pics above). Maybe relegate rack of music videos to storage tubs. The lamp will have to go as well. After those mods, I'll be able to shove the 20" dia traps aside and place the S3000i behind the LP; see how it performs there. Maybe even get a little shaker action out of it, too!


----------



## John Stewart (Jul 5, 2014)

Too late for a set of these?

http://www.amazon.com/Round-Reusabl...42993&sr=8-3&keywords=furniture+super+sliders

Good luck Lou. Great thread.


----------



## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Silly? It's blocking the bottom woofer of the right main speaker. Measurements show it will fit behind the speaker with only inches to spare on all sides. I think SQ will suffer, but will be measuring and tweaking this weekend. I'm also going to try a radical rearrangement by dividing the stack of 4 album crates into 2 pair. Each stacked pair of 2 will fit between a L/R main and its nearest existing stack (basically in the same position as the S3000i is now in the pics above). Maybe relegate rack of music videos to storage tubs. The lamp will have to go as well. After those mods, I'll be able to shove the 20" dia traps aside and place the S3000i behind the LP; see how it performs there. Maybe even get a little shaker action out of it, too!


Mebbe a tad silly but no more silly that putting a dual 15" sub in the green room. I think that is so much overkill for the green room and you would do so much better with a single down firing sub that I could supply. I will, out of concern for your brains which are about to scramble, take the twin 15's off your hands and put that beastie in my room. It is not green, and I do love me some green, but it does have a bit more room and as such, I would scrambilize my brains. 

Just sayin, good neighbor Jack here :innocent:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I'd just turn it over on the driver side and run a 23hz tone and float it into place. Then just tip it up! Easy peasy! Lol....


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Oh, I get it... humour. Well have your laughing! 

You've heard of the Sampson & Hercules-named subs here on HTS? Well I present you with. . . _The Presence!_ After family time, I had the chance to hook up and break in _The Presence_, then settled into the LP for a session. Hit "play" ... wait for bass demo track to start ... sounds good! Wait a minute ... only the L/C/R are playing ... respectfully approach _The Presence_ and watch for cone movement ... nothing ... gain turned up? Yes ... Crossover too low? No ... Bad cable? No ... Power-up/down sequence correct? Check ... Correct playback mode? Check.

Heavy sigh. 

Long story shorter: 
:T *Tom helped every step of the way to try to avoid this rarity, but I need to return The Presence so PSA can diagnose the trouble. Still free shipping AND Tom even went the extra mile to have it picked up from my house, sparing me the extreme hassle of finding appropriate transportation! Technical and moral suport? Cool. Sincere and many thanks!* 

Now to decide if I should get something bigger :devil:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

John Stewart said:


> Too late for a set of these?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Round-Reusabl...42993&sr=8-3&keywords=furniture+super+sliders
> 
> Good luck Lou. Great thread.


Great tip. Thank you, kind sir!


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I guess you'll have to rename it. "The absence". 
Sorry Lou. That really stinks. Tom will hook you up.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

willis7469 said:


> I guess you'll have to rename it. "The absence".
> Sorry Lou. That really stinks. Tom will hook you up.


:rofl: Thats Funny right there yes it is.
I guess folks from Minnesota do have a sense of humor once the snow is gone.


----------



## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

The Red October is running silent, huh? , sorry to hear that Lou. Bummer. I'm sure Tom and Jim will have you taken care of very soon.

The Absence...ha ha...


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Willis, you missed your calling. You should have been a comedian!
Thanks to all (including Tom) for the kind words of support.


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> It's funny, but when you don't know what you're missing it's not a big deal. However, hear/feel really deep bass one time - just once - and things change forever. 28Hz will never suffice again.
> 
> Along with the subs already suggested, check out the PowerSound Audio XS15se and S1500. Both are relatively small yet can plumb the depths with ease.


You were definitely on the right track, Jim. And it only took me 3 months to realize that on my own, DOH! My latest sub being auditioned is as advertised: "Not for everyone." Clearly too much in my 9 x 13 room, even for the short term. 

*Hopefully someday, at least one PSAs S3000i sub will keep me company.* :T

For now, a less steroid-injected model is more appropriate.
What now?
Decisions :dumbcrazy:


----------



## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> You were definitely on the right track, Jim. And it only took me 3 months to realize that on my own, DOH!


That's because I've been at this for a while... 

It may not be as much of a negative as you're making it out to be though. Experience is the best teacher; you can hear something said a 100 times, but ultimately you'll need to find out what works best for you. Diving in and getting your hands dirty, so to speak, is how you gain knowledge. I can almost guarantee that in the end it will prove beneficial.


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> It may not be as much of a negative as you're making it out to be though.
> ...Diving in and getting your hands dirty, so to speak, is how you gain knowledge. I can almost guarantee that in the end it will prove beneficial.


I do tend to look at the glass as half empty. You are once again on target: I've become more familiar with REW, and learned the relationship between positioning/orientation on frequency response (both flatness and extension). Can hardly wait to dive into phase/delay. Hoo boy, what a ride!


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Willis, you missed your calling. You should have been a comedian! .


 You're too funny! Oh wait....
Lou Ray!!!!!!!!! Where are you? It's been quiet on the front. I've been slammed myself so I understand. Having any luck?


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Savjac said:


> :rofl: Thats Funny right there yes it is. I guess folks from Minnesota do have a sense of humor once the snow is gone.


 Thank you jack. Most MN'ns are pretty hardy, along with their humility, and humor. My humor spends too much time wrapped in an electric blanket. I was tragically born too far north.


----------



## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Ok boys and well....boys, the day came and went. On Saturday I drove up to meet...yes hold the applause, BlueLou. I can now tell you first hand that yes, he is blue, a tall member of the smurf family methinks. 

Ok, I made the last part up, he is a very very warm, gentle and kind man with a huge heart of gold. He allowed me into his home and I got to hear some of the most advanced and cool stuff I have ever heard in another mans home. His two channel rig is just too awesome for words from myself, a mere mortal. Stunning I say.
I also got to visit the green room and listen to a few subs in there and I think I saw Lou smile...alot as did I. We went through, movies, music and even tried out a record, yes my friends he even does vinyl. Our day was capped by great Chinese food and a few sapporo beers. 

Thank You Lou, it was the highest form of Groovy.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Wow jack! That is awesome. I am what's known as, jealous. Lou does indeed have a heart of gold, er, blue?


----------



## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

That's way cool Jack. Good for you guys!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> You're too funny! Oh wait.... Lou Ray!!!!!!!!! Where are you? It's been quiet on the front. I've been slammed myself so I understand. Having any luck?


Did someone get the license number of that truck ...errr.... sub? 
V V V

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> Ok boys and well....boys, the day came and went. On Saturday I drove up to meet...yes hold the applause, BlueLou. I can now tell you first hand that yes, he is blue, a tall member of the smurf family methinks. Ok, I made the last part up, he is a very very warm, gentle and kind man with a huge heart of gold. He allowed me into his home and I got to hear some of the most advanced and cool stuff I have ever heard in another mans home. His two channel rig is just too awesome for words from myself, a mere mortal. Stunning I say. I also got to visit the green room and listen to a few subs in there and I think I saw Lou smile...alot as did I. We went through, movies, music and even tried out a record, yes my friends he even does vinyl. Our day was capped by great Chinese food and a few sapporo beers. Thank You Lou, it was the highest form of Groovy.


You're welcome, Jack, and thanks for the kind words. And I must thank you for your delightful company. You're not near as bad as your online persona makes you out to be - HAH! Just kidding. I can hardly wait for the reciprocal visit. Thank you even more for troubling yourself to load up your PSA XV15 and haul it up here. Every time I fire it up I miss the REL less, though I imagine I will always miss it to one significant degree or another. But each of those fine subs was designed for a different purpose, and each does it extremely well.

Graphs are on there way, but I've already proven to myself that the XV15 can go lower than the SB13u in my room. Extension to at least 18Hz (approx -3dB). Very authoritative on movies, yet still tuneful with music. Increases system dynamics as it should, and blends extremely well. As a bonus, the XV15 performed without a hitch in the same location as the SB13u. After using REW to fine tune, it wound up flush against the wall instead of angled toward the door. I'm especially impressed with the downward firing driver, as it really puts a decent shudder into my slab at the right moments!

More to come!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Most excellent and thank you for the compliment, I will try to be as good as my Lou thinks I am.

I have to say one of my favorite moments of the day was when we played this one disc and part way through one of the songs, there appeared some serious bass way under the vocals and guitar. Lou started to smile and then all of a sudden he started to wiggle about like a kid that has to go the the bathroom. Too Cool. I will cherish that visual forever. 

BlueLou Rocks boys and men, and so do I.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Yeah, my son asked if he could replace his car sub with PSA S3000i. Seriously. We had a father/son talk about woofer size/displacement along with equal and opposite reactions!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

As time draws closer to additional and more serious sub auditions, I can't help but reflect on current progress. Comparisons haven't been apples-to-apples by any means, just given the mere fact that room correction (Dirac in this case) house curves throw a monkey-wrench into the mix. I'm no reviewer and haven't studied proper review techniques for subwoofers, but I'd hazard a guess that manual integration after careful placement would be called for (at minimum). As far as I know, Dirac has no capability to generate filters for just a subwoofer swap--the entire set of measurements must be repeated. Therein may lie the key! Make sure speaker and mic locations stay the same between sets, and only subwoofer differences emerge. Yet this feeling of foreboding dread falls over me, for I'm certain complex issues lurk nearby that promise to lay waste to my mission of fairness. But I have learned that perseverance and attention to detail help bind sonic oatmeal into a cohesive soundscape. In the end, a psuedo-scientific method fosters precipitation of auditory illusion. I make excuses neither for myself, nor for the subwoofing contenders that cross my path. I could very happily live with any of them.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

The sub shootout now continues with technical updates for the PSA XV15 frequency response before and after Dirac. I've tried to keep the fairness meter pegged, but some of the necessary Dirac calibrations do not always deliver optimal results (see Post #15 here and Post #49 here for a detailed commentary). Sadly, I lack the REW expertise to delve into impulse response, group delay, and other advanced capabilities. Happily, Dirac takes care of a lot. Here are plots of the sub alone and of the sub+mains before and after Dirac processing:

*Just look at that extension!!! Still needs work on 50-70Hz dip.*








*Dirac curve looks bad but sounds good!?*









Whether through operator error or just because of Dirac's idiosyncrasies, I've recalibrated the system whenever compromised results seemed present. More often than not, I find myself boosting the bottom end of the house curve 3-5dB to compensate for Dirac's tendency toward subdued bass. Would I not have a long history of identifying proper LF balance, I'd tend to think of that last observation as a true lack of bass. But as those of us who have grown accustomed to balanced bass already know, it seems lean at first. Upon closer scrutiny, it's delineated in pitch and sharpened in attack. Balanced bass also allows for harmonics in the mids to compliment fundamental F's for improved dynamics.

So my comparisons are not entirely scientific, but this _is_ a speaker/LF comparison, and thus carries subjective baggage. I am trying to exercise due diligence in set up and auditioning. The SVS SB13u had a long-term audition with many types of source material pulsing through its internals, but I never chose particular tracks or scenes for comparison; a mistake I admit. It's now returned to the dealer so I'll never know for sure, but I can say that the PSA XV15 is more impressive in the visceral department. After just plopping it down in the same spot and just using the same Dirac filters & house-curve (tailored for the SB13u), the XV15 commanded attention. It took system enjoyment to a whole new level. After several calibrations and closer listening, it retained it's wow-factor but somewhat softened the presentation. I have no better description. Pitch definition was present in spades, yet low to mid bass seemed muddy. Not boomy; just a little muddy. Please don't get me wrong: that characteristic isn't overpowering by any means. It only calls attention to itself on some material and only during critical listening. So it could be said that the XV15 is highly resolving, taking on the character of the material it's fed. It certainly blends well with the mains and surrounds. Even when listening intently, it's very hard to tell where the mains end and the sub begins. It sits waiting patiently when the soundtrack lacks bass, but when the dam opens watch out!

Today I plan to set up and calibrate the PSA XS1500. And for comparison, I've familiarized myself with some of the recommended bass scenes and soundtracks (all Blu Ray, what else?!) from 
War of the Worlds
Cloverfield
Flight of the Phoenix
Saving Private Ryan
Fury
Jurassic Park
LCD Soundsystem Shut Up and Play the Hits
ELP Live at Montreaux
Jeff Beck Live at Ronnie Scott's
Joe Bonamassa Live from the Royal Albert Hall
The Allman Brothers Band Live at the Beacon Theatre


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I hope you have the Airborne Toxic Event as therein lies quite the dramatic cut called the kids are ready to die. I am now sad I did not leave behind my Immersion Wish you were Here disc, you seemed to enjoy that one a good deal.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

No worries, Jack. Thanks for reminding me. The 24/96 disc was tremendously entertaining. The SQ floored me!


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Sadly, I lack the REW expertise to delve into impulse response, group delay, and other advanced capabilities. Happily, Dirac takes care of a lot.


Dirac doesn't take care of any of those advanced capabilities I'm afraid. Things like IR and GD are functions of engineering, not adjustments that can be made. Whatever PSA - or any other company, for that matter - designed them to be are what they'll always be, no matter how much tweaking Dirac does.




BlueRockinLou said:


> *Just look at that extension!!! Still needs work on 50-70Hz dip.*


And another basshead is born... 




BlueRockinLou said:


> But as those of us who have grown accustomed to balanced bass already know, it seems lean at first. Upon closer scrutiny, it's delineated in pitch and sharpened in attack.
> 
> It only calls attention to itself on some material and only during critical listening. So it could be said that the XV15 is highly resolving, taking on the character of the material it's fed. It certainly blends well with the mains and surrounds. Even when listening intently, it's very hard to tell where the mains end and the sub begins. It sits waiting patiently when the soundtrack lacks bass, but when the dam opens watch out!


That's so true. If you hear bass all the time something is _wrong_ with your setup, not right. It augments the soundtrack, it shouldn't constantly overpower everything else.




BlueRockinLou said:


> Today I plan to set up and calibrate the PSA XS1500. And for comparison, I've familiarized myself with some of the recommended bass scenes and soundtracks (all Blu Ray, what else?!) from
> War of the Worlds
> Cloverfield
> Flight of the Phoenix
> ...


Choose select tracks/passages as well. That way you'll be able to focus on specific areas. Audio memory is very short term, so you don't want to cloud what little there is with too much input.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lou Ray. In looking at your list, I'll recommend Master and commander. Chapter 4, Under attack. Use the regular dvd as the blu Ray has a shelf filter(lame). In your room, you should be totally blown away. (Puns are in there somewhere in sure).


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## kingnoob (Mar 12, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> Well Lou. The first one that comes to mind is the SVS SB2000. 699.99 to the door. Free shipping both ways. Iirc, 45 day no questions return policy. Plus, 5yr warranty. It's small and sealed, so it will be great with music, although that's not a prerequisite. It's rated to 19hz, but in room extension should be closer to 15 or 16. How low do yo want to spend? Lol You could diy , but if you're all thumbs, let them handle it.
> http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb-2000
> Plenty of others, but that was the first to hit my brain cell....
> http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/cylinder
> I have a bias toward these too.


Arent DIY more powerful then any commercial subs? price/perfomance ratio.
Still there are some really impressive commercial subs , usually wayyyy out of my budget.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

kingnoob said:


> Arent DIY more powerful then any commercial subs? price/perfomance ratio. Still there are some really impressive commercial subs , usually wayyyy out of my budget.


 Net necessarily. They CAN be more powerful, if they're tuned right and have the right amp on them. Lou's room is very very small, and he's indicated that his DIY skills are not very high. That's why I started where I did. If he was in a 7000 cuft space, I might recommend a pair of ported SI 18's with 3kilowatts to them. Also SVS has spec'd their drivers to the gnats and to the enclosure. They also have DSP to protect those drivers. Plus 5yr warranty. That's a lot of piece of mind.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Net necessarily. They CAN be more powerful, if they're tuned right and have the right amp on them. Lou's room is very very small, and he's indicated that his DIY skills are not very high. That's why I started where I did. If he was in a 7000 cuft space, I might recommend a pair of ported SI 18's with 3kilowatts to them. Also SVS has spec'd their drivers to the gnats and to the enclosure. They also have DSP to protect those drivers. Plus 5yr warranty. That's a lot of piece of mind.


+1

A commonly voiced axiom is DIY will always be better, but that's not what my experience has been. In the right hands that can be the case, but it's not a given by any means.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)




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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

theJman said:


> +1 A commonly voiced axiom is DIY will always be better, but that's not what my experience has been. In the right hands that can be the case, but it's not a given by any means.


 exactly Jim. It's easy to turn a DIY into a DIW(Did it wrong)


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Rofl!!!!!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

rofl!!!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

It's actually quite a good likeness (except for the mustache). :R


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> It's actually quite a good likeness (except for the mustache). :R


 Lol! Ur the best Lou.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Awwww, gawrsh! :R


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Btw Lou, thanks for cultivating the upgraditis seeds that have been planted in my brain. I count PSA's jumping over my JBL's to fall asleep. Works better than counting sheep.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> Dirac doesn't take care of any of those advanced capabilities I'm afraid. Things like IR and GD are functions of engineering, not adjustments that can be made. Whatever PSA - or any other company, for that matter - designed them to be are what they'll always be, no matter how much tweaking Dirac does.


:T Your explanation's clarity is greatly appreciated, Jim




theJman said:


> And another basshead is born... s.


You betcha! And just as I thought "upgrade" and "enough" were in my past (lol).


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Btw Lou, thanks for cultivating the upgraditis seeds that have been planted in my brain.


As a wise but scary man once said to me: "Muuwuah-hah-hah" :devil:
Okay, so the spelling was off.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> You betcha! And just as I thought "upgrade" and "enough" were in my past (lol).


Probably not. I'm listening to a JTR Captivator S1 as I type this, and now all of the sudden even I have the upgrade bug. It's never ending unfortunately... :hissyfit:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hissyfit is right.....
What was that I said about contentment?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

*First off:*
I can only imagine the horror on some of the more experienced faces out there when they find out I'm auditioning PSA's XS1500 firing somewhat face-to-face less than a foot away from my RF Main! Well, I can't speak for any adverse time-domain effects that may cause. But I can attest it works (on paper ...errr, screen), which my REW graphs will hopefully support. Sorry, but I haven't reached the actual auditioning stage. 









*But wait, there's more! (I left out the beginning)*
Okay so the 1500 is in as prime position as can be expected considering my room size and LAF (Lou Acceptance Factor) :bigsmile: I ran curves on a few locations that had worked for the similarly-sized SB13u, and sure enough it wound up in the exact same spot as the 13. By coincidence. Okay then, slightly on purpose. 

Wanting to keep an apples-to-apples atmosphere, the front mains stayed put. But I did try a few new orientations that raised REW's graphical eyebrows. Firing the sub at various angles targeted along the front wall produced an unexpected difference in response. I was surprised to see my old 45-70Hz nemesis had been tamed! Well, somewhat. Here are the charts that drove me from my madness...

*Sub and SUB+Mains ( Before Dirac )*









*Sub and SUB+Mains ( After Dirac )*










To excited for words, am I! Long hours at the heels of this elusive dip have finally paid off. Man against machine--HAH! I just won't show you the waterfall plots :innocent:
Now off I go to wake the neighbors. :devil:


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

theJman said:


> Choose select tracks/passages as well. That way you'll be able to focus on specific areas. Audio memory is very short term, so you don't want to cloud what little there is with too much input.


Agree. I stick to three tracks and only the first 45 seconds. The minute you listen longer your brain starts to get confused and forgetful.


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## kingnoob (Mar 12, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> corner placement can be ideal or it can be poor. You simply wont know till you try it. One thing to note is that a sub that is built right and digs deep will have a much better in room response than a cheap one so in room gain is not always a good indicator as to how deep it will go. Always get the best sub you can afford as it really makes a big difference.


Yeah why is it that Retail store subs are always so tiny? Best-buy included , I never see a 15" in stores.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Looking good Lou! Wakey Wakey!!!!!!!!!!(neighbors)


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

kingnoob said:


> Yeah why is it that Retail store subs are always so tiny? Best-buy included , I never see a 15" in stores.



Very few persons and families want a big sub in their living room. I breaks the definition of WAF


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> *First off:*
> I can only imagine the horror on some of the more experienced faces out there when they find out I'm auditioning PSA's XS1500 firing somewhat face-to-face less than a foot away from my RF Main! Well, I can't speak for any adverse time-domain effects that may cause. But I can attest it works (on paper ...errr, screen), which my REW graphs will hopefully support. Sorry, but I haven't reached the actual auditioning stage.


I seem to recall someone posting about driver orientation and the affect it might have. Wonder who that could have been? :neener:

Josh Ricci over a data-bass.com, a man who knows objective testing and subwoofer performance better than almost everybody else, always points his drivers at the wall and not the listener. That doesn't work in all situations, of course, but changing the firing direction does indeed have merit. Look no further than your own graphs for definitive proof.

By the way, when did PSA come out with an XS1500?  Which model do you have, the XS15 or S1500? Just curious.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> I seem to recall someone posting about driver orientation and the affect it might have. Wonder who that could have been? :neener:
> 
> Josh Ricci over a data-bass.com, a man who knows objective testing and subwoofer performance better than almost everybody else, always points his drivers at the wall and not the listener. That doesn't work in all situations, of course, but changing the firing direction does indeed have merit. Look no further than your own graphs for definitive proof.
> 
> By the way, when did PSA come out with an XS1500?  Which model do you have, the XS15 or S1500? Just curious.


oops... *S1500 (sorry PSA)* 
oops... I'll re-read the post

FWIW, my first impressions of the *S1500* involve surprise and respect. It was easy to integrate the *S1500* into both the room and the system. It never called attention to itself, except to improve the experience of all sources I tried. I would describe its sound character as somewhere between PSA's own XV15 and the SVS SB13 Ultra (much closer to the SVS). The *S1500* can vibrate my concrete slab with a movie's low undertones. And it can also fiercely come alive when called for by sharp attack. It seems to do everything asked of it, but I still need to finish auditioning before making a final choice. What a job! :bigsmile:


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Some interesting stuff here. I know a good place for the loser of the toss up onder:

I do feel bad you're having to put yourself and the green room out like this, but we will all be wiser once this evolution is complete.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> I do feel bad you're having to put yourself and the green room out like this, but we will all be wiser once this evolution is complete.


Thanks for the kind sentiment, Jack. I was kind of shocked at how little I knew when this first started; reading a few of my earlier posts in this thread reminded me of that. I don't pretend to have scaled Mt. Subwoofer's heights of expertise. Just getting a handle on subwoofer integration and picking up on subjective likes and dislikes along the way. And there's no accounting for taste, is there? 

I know you must be chomping at the bit to find out which sub strikes my fancy as the conclusion of our temporary trade draws near (your PSA XV15 for my REL T-9). I still need to run the S1500 through its paces on my chosen demo material, and I should probably recalibrate Dirac with the house curve used for the XV15 just to be totally fair. But regardless of setup, I think it would be difficult to get any more extension out of the S1500. According to my REW measurements, extension and flatness are about the same. In any case, the point I'm trying to make is that the sealed front-firing S1500 has--during my informal auditioning, at least--not yet made my jaw drop or slapped a silly smile on my face. Remember the expression you said I had when we first fired up the XV15? Not there with the S1500. Sure, that one turns on a dime but I believe I prefer the XV15 for its truly powerful extension and ability to draw me in to the performance. I love the better "slam" and "punch" of the sealed designs, but that's not totally lacking in the XV15. Running on a little, so going to leave you with those thoughts for now.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I am not so much chomping at a bit really, more of an excitement but in a sort of off way. As discussed, in my case, I felt that the XV15 might me a bit too much for my room as my floor, albeit kinda new, is a bit too wobbly for the power of the force from the XV. However, we briefly touched on how I would love to hear what the S1500 would work in my room as it is forward facing, sealed and my pea brain thought that this sub may be the answer to all the dreams minus some of the issues. The REL is a sub-perb subwoofer that makes me smile, especially for music but seems to lack the lowest punch that can be found in movies. Connecting the speaker taps and the LFE together add more punch which does vibrate the floor a bit however that visceral feeling which caused to you wiggle in your chair is kind of not there. I used many of the same samples that we used at Chez Louie, like This Is It, and while it sounded powerful it did not have that "Live" feeling that the PSA literally commanded from the discs. 

The long and deep of this is that I am pretty happy and would love to couple an S1500 in my room, except for that cost thing. Some of us have limited funds :rofl::laugh: My wife went and bought a bed just so she can sleep better.......can you imagine the gall ??? She has no clue how important the search for aural truth is in out lives.

So enjoy my fellow searcher of the true meaning of hitting below the belt, enjoy.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Sorry Jack, just trying to clarify my previous ramblings: I'm about 75% sure your XV15 is a worthy replacement for my T-9. The XV15 just does the trick for me in my space with my system. In a nutshell, when the XV15's in the system I feel as if I've stepped into a higher caliber venue with superior sound.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

No need to be sorry my friend. It is so hard to understand some stuff via text on the internet. I am glad youre diggin this. :T


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## kingnoob (Mar 12, 2013)

Savjac said:


> Very few persons and families want a big sub in their living room. I breaks the definition of WAF


+ 1 on that why else would anyone buy small tiny cube speakers? for looks!:bigsmile:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> The long and deep of this is that I am pretty happy and would love to couple an S1500 in my room, except for that cost thing. Some of us have limited funds :rofl::laugh: My wife went and bought a bed just so she can sleep better.......can you imagine the gall ??? She has no clue how important the search for aural truth is in out lives.
> 
> So enjoy my fellow searcher of the true meaning of hitting below the belt, enjoy.


You're supposed to sleep (lol)? How can one sleep when there are so many movies and so much music to enjoy? You hit the nail on the head about price. That's a major consideration for me, too. Our trade agreement results in minimal expenses. Both subs have their pros and cons, but only the listener can decide which sonic style is right for them. It's oh so tempting to go with the S1500 but I'm extremely happy with the XV15. 

Too bad I can't install both and switch between them at will!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

480dad said:


> I just wish he'd hurry up and pick one for pete's sake. I'm an inch shorter, 5 lbs heavier and little grayer just since he started this thread.lddude:





Chromejob said:


> ....Lou, can you just sit back and enjoy s movie with this setup? Numbers are irrelevant if you can get into s story and feel some bass tickle your chest hairs.....


Got my finger on the trigger. Leaning heavily toward PSA's XV15 vented design. :T


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Got my finger on the trigger. Leaning heavily toward PSA's XV15 vented design. :T


 (whisper) Squeeze it Lou, squeeze it.....


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Kabang (done)! Jack and I have sealed our deal. The PSA XV15s downward firing sub is the one to beat for me in my current room. I now see the merit of everyone's advice not to worry so much about the future. I learned so very much during this journey and sincerely thank all participants for their contributions, and for making this thread successful. 

Now, do I add on the "se" upgrade? :devil:


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Now, do I add on the "se" upgrade? :devil:


Don't even start that! :unbelievable:


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Methinks BlueLou caved in too early. He did not even give a chance to the Triax in his room. This is just pure selfishness on his part :rofl:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Savjac said:


> Methinks BlueLou caved in too early. He did not even give a chance to the Triax in his room. This is just pure selfishness on his part :rofl:


 I agree. Lou. Please send me one, and I'll test it on your behalf.


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## kingnoob (Mar 12, 2013)

Do Down-firing subs sag overtime? <My SI driver is so heavy I only considered using it front firing.

Which one sounds better?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

kingnoob said:


> Do Down-firing subs sag overtime? <My SI driver is so heavy I only considered using it front firing. Which one sounds better?


 they can sag. To my knowledge, drivers that are spec'd to be down firing have different suspensions and parts to fight gravity. The heavy part of your SI driver should be the magnet. That won't matter. I have a JBL down firing sub from about 2004 iirc. It doesn't seem to be affected at all. In fact I used the driver in my very first sonosub. Still works. 
One won't "sound" better than the other, but I think the wave propagation from down firing lends to better bass overall. That part could be totally in my head lol. I'd ask Nick about using it down firing. He'll know.


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## kingnoob (Mar 12, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> they can sag. To my knowledge, drivers that are spec'd to be down firing have different suspensions and parts to fight gravity. The heavy part of your SI driver should be the magnet. That won't matter. I have a JBL down firing sub from about 2004 iirc. It doesn't seem to be affected at all. In fact I used the driver in my very first sonosub. Still works.
> One won't "sound" better than the other, but I think the wave propagation from down firing lends to better bass overall. That part could be totally in my head lol. I'd ask Nick about using it down firing. He'll know.


Yeah Ill ask STereo integrity sometime ., but I like the look of a front firing driver better.
If I had went with downfirring I would have ported it.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

kingnoob said:


> ....I like the look of a front firing driver better.


Yeah, especially when they're copper-colored like jbrax's. I special-ordered my white REL to match my speakers, but now savjac is the proud new owner.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Yeah, especially when they're copper-colored like jbrax's. I special-ordered my white REL to match my speakers, but now savjac is the proud new owner.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using HTShack


I thought it would be a good idea to paint the front firing woofer copper, what do ya think ??? :innocent:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> ...I think the wave propagation from down firing lends to better bass overall.


It certainly does in my room on a concrete slab. The down firing XV15 bested all the other front firing subs I tried. Now it's all mine; mine I say!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> I agree. Lou. Please send me one, and I'll test it on your behalf.


What? You live in Hotel California, too? Toys enter but they never leave?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> I thought it would be a good idea to paint the front firing woofer copper, what do ya think ??? :innocent:


As long as it's the front-firing one. Sag-Theory has the color pulled off by gravity. Lou-Theory has it pushed off by the driver--HAH! I am right and the rest of you are wrong, once again--HAH!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> It certainly does in my room on a concrete slab. The down firing XV15 bested all the other front firing subs I tried. Now it's all mine; mine I say!


 mwahaha!!!! Ah! Hahahahaha!!!!!!
I think the slab is a double edged sword. I controls bass better than say, a wood floor, but it doesn't excite the floor either. Getting the floor shaking can add a little more tactility, and scale. 
Have to say, congratulations on scoring the xv15. I love my subs, but MAN you got me dreamin...
Congrats Lou..........Ray.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> What? You live in Hotel California, too? Toys enter but they never leave?


 rofl! Rofl. Have we met?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Down-firing orientations tend to mask some of the harmonic distortion because the output is not directly aimed at the user. It's definitely a subtle effect - and only beneficial when you're talking about an offensive harmonic, like the 3rd - but it's more than just a phenomenon.

Gravity works the same whether the driver is horizontal or vertical, so each configuration is subject to a certain degree of sag. Down-firing does exert more force though, so the driver manufacturer needs to take orientation into account, but it's not a problem exclusive to that alignment. With the way most drivers are designed today it's probably not something that will be an issue for most; generally speaking, you're going to outgrow your subwoofer before you notice any problem.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

BlueRockinLou said:


> As long as it's the front-firing one. Sag-Theory has the color pulled off by gravity. Lou-Theory has it pushed off by the driver--HAH! I am right and the rest of you are wrong, once again--HAH!


I was actually thinking that if I left the paint on the woofer wet, I could make art on the walls when I turned them on. Save me the trouble of having to paint the walls.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I did something in REW but not sure if its correct or if it actually means anything in its present form.
I see there is an issue hither and yon but what does this mean. Its my first read out.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> I did something in REW but not sure if its correct or if it actually means anything in its present form. I see there is an issue hither and yon but what does this mean. Its my first read out.


 Not bad at all. Need it in logarithmic instead of linear form, though. There's an icon in the upper right corner of the REW measurement window that lets you swap between the two. I think it's labeled "Frequency Scale". Just start pressing buttons until you get the right thing (j/k). When it's right, the graph should not have evenly spaced divisions along the horizontal axis. We present FR this way because it models how we hear. It's hard to draw any conclusions from the response in its present form because we can't tell how broad or shallow the dip is. A broader dip in that region would be indicative of either a speaker/sub positioning issue, or of a crossover characteristic. A very steep and narrow dip points the finger at a room mode, which can be thought of as a drain. You can no more fill up a drain with water than you can Boost away a dip with EQ. Conversely, if the dip responds to EQ, then it wasn't a function of modes. Probably more than you bargained for, but thought it might help. Sent from my iPad using HTShack

EDIT: Oh yeah, and just take the defaults for frequency limits (10 to 200 Hz), and amplitude (40 to 105dB).


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Thank You Lou, I will try it again, I was pushing the wrong buttons, I tried the waterfall thingies but it looked lie a hippo lying in the water.


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

opcorn:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

David, you popped the nail on the head! :meal:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> mwahaha!!!! Ah! Hahahahaha!!!!!!
> I think the slab is a double edged sword. I controls bass better than say, a wood floor, but it doesn't excite the floor either. Getting the floor shaking can add a little more tactility, and scale.
> Have to say, congratulations on scoring the xv15. I love my subs, but MAN you got me dreamin...
> Congrats Lou..........Ray.


Willis, you crack me up. Thanks, man.
And you're right... the tactile sensation helps immerse you in the show! I'm really lucky I don't have to chase rattles and buzzing.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> And another basshead is born...


I never would have pegged myself that way. I surprised myself by going with the vented over the sealed, as I've always preferred tight bass. PSA's XV15 subwoofer successfully combines the best of both camps. Maybe it's not the recommended choice for my small room, and maybe it's not optimal in there, but to me it delivers the goods I've been craving (and didn't even know it)!


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Deliverin the goods, sounds like a Judas Priest song. 

..."You better watch out and hold on tight, We're heading your way like dynamite"


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> Don't even start that! :unbelievable:


That was in response to my post hinting at "upgrading" the driver and amp to PSA's "se" version. So if not that, then how about a full fledged make-over of subwoofer time alignment? Definitely not for the faint-of-heart or uninitiated. Seems like a steep learning curve too, according to Post #8 of an HTS thread here, and one of its referenced links here. From what I've read so far, I fear my choice of vented sub will eventually come back to bite me. But I can't say I wasn't warned.

The perfectionist in me is screaming to get out!
Align with the universe! 
Too many ports and so little air, oh my!


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Lumen said:


> That was in response to my post hinting at "upgrading" the driver and amp to PSA's "se" version. So if not that, then how about a full fledged make-over of subwoofer time alignment? Definitely not for the faint-of-heart or uninitiated. Seems like a steep learning curve too, according to Post #8 of an HTS thread here, and one of its referenced links here. From what I've read so far, I fear my choice of vented sub will eventually come back to bite me. But I can't say I wasn't warned. The perfectionist in me is screaming to get out! Align with the universe! Too many ports and so little air, oh my!


I am there for you should you wish not to be bitten. I feel for you brother and may purchase another soon, but will work on ways to decouple the sub from the floor. 
Life is full of fun ?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Guess I should clarify, but I'm feeling lazy this a.m. so will quote AudiocRaver's Post #157 from here, which was directed at another member:

_"Trying to do anything further would probably involve having individual time delay controls for each of the four subwoofers, more detailed measurement capability with impulse response and precise time delay measurement possible, all with quite a learning curve. And even then, with very limited ability to place the subs optimally, there is still no certainty in achieving a big improvement. I wish I could say otherwise.

You have a wonderful room and excellent sound, and it might be that you have reached the point of diminishing returns for your efforts that makes this a perfect place to call it good."_ :sweat: :bigsmile:


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