# I can"t decide ..........



## sbk12rs (Nov 19, 2010)

On a AVR ??

I have just about sold myself on the SVS scs-02 system .

I"ll be using it for mostly Internet music and TV .

With $1000 budget for the AVR , I just can't decide .

There is no way for me to listen to the options with the speakers , I'm sort of hoping some here have a setup with these speakers .

Thoughts or comments ????

TIA , Steven


----------



## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Any quality AVR should sound like any other quality AVR (see the thread "Do all amps sound the same?" for more info. Now, EQ functions like Audyssey can affect the sound for the better in problematic rooms, but you should focus on the features you want. For Internet radio, I would really recommend looking at a separate media streamer vs the built in features of the AVR. Boxers like the $99 Roku offer so much more functionality than you'll get from $200 in AVR.


----------



## IrishStout (Nov 12, 2010)

I've been seeing a lot of recommendations for the Onk 808 and the Pio 1120-V
Not sure if that helps or not? 
But both can be had for less then $1000 if you look around...


----------



## callas01 (Oct 24, 2010)

The new Sony ES line has been getting great reviews, their networking and ease of use was well liked by Home Theater Mag. Sound quality is good and you get all the features that you should need.

http://www.abt.com/product/48048/Sony-STRDA3600ES.html


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I hate to say it but Sony has some stake in Home Theater Magazine so I would not hold to much truth to the reviews. Sony has never been what I call a stellar Receiver manufacturer. There are many better choices out there. I have a friend who is a big Sony fan and has gone through three Sony ES receivers in the last 7 years all failing from various issues.
Onkyo has by far the best bang for buck particularly if you buy a refurbished one from Accessories4less


----------



## callas01 (Oct 24, 2010)

That would be like saying Wilson Audio has stake in Stereophile! Is that true? or do they actually make good speakers? All the reviewers at Stereopile have Wilson speakers. Should we get Kal Rubinson in here to answer this? If in fact Wilson does have stake in Stereophile, then we all know they have NO Credibility and their ranking the Sophia 3s as the best product of the year was all Biased. By no means did they rank a Sony ES as the top product in HTM, so why wouldn't they back their stakeholder? Please, that is a stupid argument.

How many Onkyos have HDMI issues, or video processing issues, handshake issues? A LOT! Look at the forums, they all have hundreds of threads that ask whats wrong with my Onkyo. They are electronics and they are all mass produced. *THEY WILL ALL HAVE UNITS THAT ARE DEFECTIVE*! Many receivers are built by Sherwood, who puts different face plates on them. What parts are used in them are up to the various mfgs.

Im not a Sony fanboy. Im actually moving on to another receiver hopefully soon. Integra, Rotel and Marantz have all been on my shortlist. Integra and a Used Rotel are the ones I am aiming for atm. However, I am not going to say to stay clear of one brand or another. I leave that up to you Sony Haters to do that. Theyre practical receivers and easy to use, they have plenty of features for beginners and Custom Installers alike, and they have good warranties. I have read peoples nightmares trying to deal with Onkyo CS. 

I don't hate Onkyos. I think they work for many people, if you like that slightly agressive sound. Im not going to tell someone not to buy one, Im also NOT going to tell someone NOT to buy a Sony or Yamaha or Pioneer, NAD, Rotel, Marantz, Denon, etc, etc.

What about Sony LCDs? Do you like them? Do you hate them? What about Samsung or Sharp? Do you like Sharp better? Do you like Samsung better? All three of them use each others parts to make their LCDs. Sony uses Sharp panels. So is Sony still clearly better then Sharp? Sony used to and occasionally will buy panels from Samsung also. So is Sony so much better then Samsung? So why when the questions arise does everyone say get a Sony?

You can call your friend a Sony Fanboy... maybe he is. But he can likewise call you an Onkyo Fanboy. FAIR?

I don't look to recommend one product over another. I like to read into what the person is looking for and suggest what I think would be a good product for that person. If I am a fanboi, then I am a Dynaudio fanboi! However, I don't go around this or anyother forum and put down Paradigm speakers because Dynaudio is better, IMO. If I feel that someone would get more out of PSB for what they want to do, then that is what I recommend. I also am not blinded by what I own so much so that I cannot recommend anyother products. I love the products I have, doesn't mean everyone else will. I have a pair of Mission bookshelfs. I am not condeming you for owning a pair of speakers that I find inferior to everything else I have in my home. I think we should all be proud of what we own, and yes, recommending it is sometimes when the application fits is appropriate.

I want you to know that I am not angry with you. I am not picking a fight either. Happy Thanksgiving.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

This was not meant to start an argument its just the exsperience I have had with Sony receivers. Sony makes fantastic cameras, TVs and Video cameras not to mention the PS3. Receivers are not one of there strong points and its well known that they are very under powered/over rated. Bench tests have proven it over and over.


----------



## callas01 (Oct 24, 2010)

have you read the most recent HTM review of the 4600ES or the Onkyo 5008? 

The both seem to have almost the same power ratings when driving 5 and 7 channels. The Denon 2311 was also reviewed and produced less WPC then either of these 2 receivers. 

Did you see last years Pioneer 1019 120x7 wpc review? How about the Yamaha 663 90x7 wpc and 863 100 x 7 wpc reviews? they all had less then 47 wpc with 5 channels? The Pioneer was at 33 or 29 wpc! The Sony DN1000 pushed out 60 wpc.

How about the Integra 7.6

Integra DTR-7.6
Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)
1 channel driven: 148/239* W (21.7/23.8* dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 58 W (17.6** dBW)
6 channels driven (8 ohms): 44 W (16.4** dBW)


THIS in no way means that Sony is better then the rest. But simply that many manufactures, Id say all of them are putting out products that don't produce what their stated WPC spec indicates. So why just pick on Sony? If we are at it, lets pick on all of them. Or lets all just buy seperates. We can all afford Emo seperates right? There aren't any bugs with the Emo Pre-pro.... oh wait, yeah, there are.

I subscribe to your belief that we all have experiences and preferences that shape our beliefs. I will never buy a Panasonic BDP ever again. I have had 2 and they both broke after the 1 yr warranty. My Sony BDP, still ticking. I bought my first BDP in early 2007. Second in 2007 at christmas. Sony i bought xmas 2008.... only the Sony is still working.

Do you see my point? There are preferences, sure, doesn't mean they make bad receivers.


----------



## fitzwaddle (Aug 25, 2010)

Far from an unbiased opinion but here you go anyway - I recently bought a Pioneer 1120K, and couldn't be happier - they can be had for around $500 now (I paid $580 right after they came out, should have waited a week or two, but I was impatient). The certainly don't test out with all channels driven to their spec'ed power, but it works great, has a ton of features for that price point, and with my high sensitivity speaker, has plenty of power to drive them to reference level (and pre-outs if I ever decide reference level isn't quite loud enough lddude: :hsd.


----------



## sbk12rs (Nov 19, 2010)

Well , I'll tell you what about shopping .......... EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT PART NUMBER ! 

So to compare prices AND features is a though fight !

I find a Onk/Den at one place , then go and search out to see reviews and the like and find different part numbers .

The SVS's are on their way ! 

I'm not sure what to do .

Still hunting .............. :hissyfit:


----------



## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Big sale on refurbs at shoponkyo through the 29th. 20%, plus the customary $10 off for signing up, and free shipping. You'll need to sign in to see the special pricing.


----------



## bigvag (Jan 9, 2010)

Check out integral its made by onkyo. It like onkyo is toyota and intergral is lexus.


----------



## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Integra, and it's not really a class difference. Onkyo is designed for the consumer market, where Interga is for the installer market. Class/performance-wise, you can find equivalents in both lines.


----------



## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

Well, let me give you my take on it. I had a Mitsubishi many years ago that worked great, couple years later it just died. Replaced it with a Sony, worked ok but it would get hot and go into protect mode, my 6 ohm nominal load was too much for it. Hooked it up to some 8 ohm speakers and everything was fine albeit still a bit warm. Replaced it with a Denon and replaced the 6 ohm speakers with 4 ohm speakers. I have been very happy with the Denon. I also have a Kenwood that has been in service for many years, it works great.

So, my suggestion would be to relax, this is supposed to be fun. If you stress over getting the best receiver for the best price, with the best features, best quality, best customer service etc., you'll never enjoy your system. You could very easily get a gem or a dud from any manufacturer. Shop for the features you want at a price you're willing to pay. Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon, Pioneer all make fine receivers and are often recommended. No need to limit your search though, Marantz, Harmon Kardon, Sherwood Newcastle, Integra, NAD, and others all produce fine receivers that fall into your budget. Quality should be pretty comparable.

As to why you keep running into different part numbers, I'd guess it is because most manufacturers produce for multiple outlets ie; one line is typically sold through an authorized audio/video specialty retailer, and is not available for mail order or internet sales. A second line is sold through mass merchants, catalog retailers, and department stores and online sales. A third line may be manufactured exclusively for one retailer. To keep a mass merchant from competing directly with the mom & pop shop the receivers have different model numbers. At least that is my understanding.


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

callas01 said:


> That would be like saying Wilson Audio has stake in Stereophile! Is that true? or do they actually make good speakers? All the reviewers at Stereopile have Wilson speakers. Should we get Kal Rubinson in here to answer this? If in fact Wilson does have stake in Stereophile, then we all know they have NO Credibility and their ranking the Sophia 3s as the best product of the year was all Biased. By no means did they rank a Sony ES as the top product in HTM, so why wouldn't they back their stakeholder? Please, that is a stupid argument.


stereophile_ doesn't_ have much credibility. They review cables. They give glowing reviews of speakers that in the last measurements page measure absolutely awful and aren't speakers i would want any part of. It's not a stupid argument at all. Other brands like marantz just wipe the floor with them in sound quality, power, etc. they're cheaply built low end receivers. Wilson speakers are worth about a tenth of what they charge for them, so even if they are good speakers (which they aren't particularily) they're massively overpriced.

There's a few things that go into a quality receiver

-preamplifier section
-Amplifier section
-room correction
-feature set

From my experience, sony receivers have warm colored preamp/DAC sections. I won't say for sure if that's true, but either way, it does not extract the detail i get from my marantz receiver. it also has high noise.. as soon as you turn the volume up you start hearing LOTS of noise... the signal to noise ratio is probably brutal.

sony receivers have awful amplifier damping that bottlenecks speakers. They make bass sound unmusical and that's not something quality receivers do. further, they can't handle moderately low impedance loads, they skimp on heatsinking, and their receivers are all IIRC EIA power ratings, not FTC. What does it tell you about a receiver when you can go to the spec page and see

"(8Ohms 1kHz) THD RMS : 1%
(8Ohms 20-20kHz) THD : 0.09% 
4 Ohm/8 Ohm Switching : No(8 Ohm only) "
8Ohms 1kHz RMS : 105W + 105W
8Ohms 20-20kHz : 95W + 95W "

For a so-called 105 watt receiver? That's a 95 watt receiver for starters. And most people's experience with sony is that they're absolutely brutal when it comes to 7 channel usage. They'll give you like 25wpc into 7 channels. For reference a brand like marantz will aim for around 65-70wpc into 7 channels, and brands like emotiva will rate their amplifiers all channels driven.


The room correction on sony receivers is a total joke. All they do is set speaker trims. No EQ or nothin. 
the feature set and brand name on sony receivers is the only reason they sell. And I have nothing against any brand. If sony came out with a world beater, i'd be interested. But that's not their market.



> Many receivers are built by Sherwood, who puts different face plates on them. What parts are used in them are up to the various mfgs.


Sherwood is not an OEM for any of the major brands. The do share a production facility with D&M holdings but that's it. 



> What about Sony LCDs? Do you like them? Do you hate them? What about Samsung or Sharp? Do you like Sharp better? Do you like Samsung better? All three of them use each others parts to make their LCDs. Sony uses Sharp panels. So is Sony still clearly better then Sharp? Sony used to and occasionally will buy panels from Samsung also. So is Sony so much better then Samsung? So why when the questions arise does everyone say get a Sony?


Actually most people will say "get a plasma instead" but that's besides the point. Truth is they've got a bigger stake and profit in the TV industry than the receiver industry.


----------



## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Check out the Marantz models at accessories 4 less also. I just bought the sr5004 4 months ago and for the money it was a great deal.


----------



## callas01 (Oct 24, 2010)

GranteedEV said:


> stereophile_ doesn't_ have much credibility. They review cables. They give glowing reviews of speakers that in the last measurements page measure absolutely awful and aren't speakers i would want any part of. It's not a stupid argument at all. Other brands like marantz just wipe the floor with them in sound quality, power, etc. they're cheaply built low end receivers. Wilson speakers are worth about a tenth of what they charge for them, so even if they are good speakers (which they aren't particularily) they're massively overpriced.
> 
> There's a few things that go into a quality receiver
> 
> ...


First off I am not saying that Sony is the brand to get, they are a brand to consider. Yes, I agree that their room correction software is not up to par with any of the other MFGs. I do think that they can lack detail when compared to some other brands out on the Market. But to completely dismiss them is not fair either.

Do you read bench test results? Did the Sony ES4600 test to the same specs as the Onkyo 5008 with 5 and 7 channels running? Yes it did. Im not saying it sounds as good, just they tested similarly in terms of power. Look at your HTM when you got home. Or is HTM adding wpc just to help Sony sell units? IF they are, then I will cancel my subscription. I don't want to be lied to. 

I FWIW, won't be buying another Sony when I do upgrade, not that I dislike them, but I am looking for something that offers me more of what I want. Powering my Excites, it just an OK job, it doesn't get hot, and hardly warm.

Regarding Wilson. I agree. Their speakers are highly overpriced for what they put into them and their actual cost to build them. And personally I think there is better speakers out there.


----------

