# Failing Horribly on first try with REW



## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

I cant seem to get anything right. Granted it is a brand new IBM Thinkpad that i got yesterday with Windows 7. I am completely unable to get anything accomplished with Rew. I have been trying for hours and it is extremely frusterating. I have the output plugged into the input and i am constantly getting error messages saying that i am clipping. I have no idea how to solve this please help.


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## fitzwaddle (Aug 25, 2010)

What sound card and mic are you using?


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Clipping on the input means the levels are bigger than the input can accept. If you are seeing that with a loopback connection you may be plugged into a Mic input instead of a line input, you have to use a line input.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

I just bought a numark interface...hopefully this will work. Guitar center was the only place to go. If it doesn't I'll have to get the Behringer. I wasnt plugged into the line in


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

Well I got some pretty cool graphs...how do I check my frequency extention?


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

This measurement looks way to smooth to be correct


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## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

Mpray1983 said:


> Well I got some pretty cool graphs...how do I check my frequency extention?
> 
> 
> 
> > This measurement looks way to smooth to be correct


I don't see anything . Did you post pics ?

I guess at this time it's recommended that you review brucek(s)' excellent thread called  *Please Read : Posting A Graph . * 

<> EarlK


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

I will post a graph when I get home.

I got a graph that basically hung around the 85 db mark between 100 - 20hz and then rose to 95db under 20hz. It was a perfectly straight line so there must be something wrong. 

I was able to get my soundcard calibrated to 12 db and even though I only have the right RCA plugged in...it is still giving me readings on the left and right. I Am using 1 RCA that split into 2 but only 1 is plugged into the interface. 

I did a manual chart using sine waves that I burnt onto a cd and noticed that the sine waves are much louder when played than anything I have connected with REW. My question is what volume on my receiver should I be setting for REW and manual? I always thought reference level at 0db. Then I read last night that it should be set to 75db while playing a 60hz test tone. 

I think the problem may lie with the numark stereo interface that I bought from guitar center so I went ahead and ordered the Behringer interface last night. I was still hoping to use the numark until it gets here. I also am going to bring back the y-splitter cables and buy single RCA cables for the connection to the spl meter and connection to the receiver. If you don't think this is necessary then I wont but I'm sure I can save some money by buying singles rather than the stereo RCA cables.

Please advise on as much of this that you can and let me know if I need to clarify anything. Sorry for being such a newb...I also couldn't figure out winisd but I figured that out and that is the only thing that is keeping me going.

Total equipment is:

Brand new laptop w/ windows 7 
Analog new radio shack spl on tripod
Numark stereo io USB interface 
Single male RCA y-split to two RCA male ends (spl to interface right input)
Stereo RCA two male to two male ends (interface right output to receiver aux input right)
Single RCA male to male (interface left output to interface left input)


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## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

> I got a graph that basically hung around the 85 db mark between 100 - 20hz and then rose to 95db under 20hz. It was a perfectly straight line so there must be something wrong.
> 
> I was able to get my soundcard calibrated to 12 db and even though I only have the right RCA plugged in...it is still giving me readings on the left and right. I Am using 1 RCA that split into 2 but only 1 is plugged into the interface.



- This sounds like user error , ( ie; "not the fault of your soundcard " ) . I don't think you need the Behringer .

- I'm on XP ( so the treminology for Win7 will be different ) , from the looks of what you just said, you are monitoring ( with REW ) the wrong input type ( within REWs preferences window ) .

- Forget about the loopback for the moment ; 

> with the RadioShack SPL meter plugged into ( say ) the left input of your sound card,
> & with that soundcard chosen as your input device in the preferences window,
> when you talk into the SPL meter ( set to 70 db ), you should see meter movement on only that left channel ( or the right channel if that's where you're plugged in ).
> if you see meter movement on both ( or none at all ) then you've got a problem to sort out ( likely the wrong input device selected as default in Win7s audio control window, or something like that , or perhaps there's a check box that combines the input to mono, if so , de-select it ) ..


- When you get home, post a screen capture of the your input & output selections, within REWs' Preferences window ( also, capture the opened up , drop-down menu of the input device box, so that I can see all the soundcard choices ).

<> EarlK


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks man and I do not doubt it is user error. The Behringer is half the price so I'll just return the numark. I'll be home within a few hours and will post a few screen shots. thanks for your help


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

first screen shot of preferences page for soundcard

currently i have a 3 piece RCA connector (red white and yellow) that i am using only the red wire and connecting the output-R to the input-R on the soundcard. Is this correct?


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

picture


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

dropdown output and inputs


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

I have the red going from the output to the input on the soundcard. Is this correct or should I be going from spl meter to R-input on soundcard and output on soundcard to receiver for the soundcard calibration?


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## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

> I have the red going from the output to the input on the soundcard. Is this correct ?


That's correct !



> or should I be going from spl meter to R-input on soundcard and output on soundcard to receiver for the soundcard calibration?


No, don't do that just yet .










What's that little black button for,,, just below the left input,,, ( what's the label say ) ?

- If it says "Monitor"( or something simlar ),,, turn it off ,,, ( & then try another loopback calibration & post a pic of the results ) .

<. EarlK


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

the black button says "line/phone" and it allows you to switch between the two


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

what settings in the input and output drop down menus should i be set to?


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## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

> what settings in the input and output drop down menus should i be set to?


- Those settings in the drop-down menus look fine ( they indicate the computers generic USB drivers are going to be used by your sound card to interface to REW ) .

- Just checking, but, you don't have a second external card plugged into any another USB port do you ?


>< EarlK


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

this is what is happening...i am not getting any signal at all it looks like.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

EarlK said:


> - Those settings in the drop-down menus look fine ( they indicate the computers generic USB drivers are going to be used by your sound card to interface to REW ) .
> 
> - Just checking, but, you don't have a second external card plugged into any another USB port do you ?
> 
> >< EarlK


No I just have the numark


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## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

Here's the setup for my Behringer UCA222 ( same as a UCA202 ) .










Go into Win7s audio control panel and make sure that you should have output ( such as unmuting the Master Output or unmuting the Wave Output selection, found in the Win7 mixer ) .

- You can also temporaily plug that Numarks output into your receiver to check for the 1K tone .

<> EarlK


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

It plays through my receiver just fine with no issues


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

i played the test tone through the receiver with no problem at all. I plugged both the left and the right in to the output and then plugged the left and the right into the input. On the numark interface when the left plug is in the input it gives me a signal on both input channels. When i only have the right side plugged in i get nothing. This is really making me start to think that the Numark is the culprit and i am going to have to wait for the behringer. Any thoughts?


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## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

> It plays through my receiver just fine with no issues


That's good that you definately are getting output .



> On the numark interface when the left plug is in the input it gives me a signal on both input channels. When i only have the right side plugged in i get nothing. This is really making me start to think that the Numark is the culprit and i am going to have to wait for the behringer. Any thoughts?


- My thought is that maybe Win7 ( in the Sound Control Panel , input section ) has the capability to mono the Left input over to both channels / leaving the Right channel disconnected . Go check that possibilty out please ( drill down into the "Advanced Microphone Options , whatever ? area ".


Then, we'll check for your SPL meters input into the soundcard ( you are not going to use the REW output for now ) .

Plug your SPL meter into the Numark, set the meter to 70db , open the preferences window, then open the metering window ( the preferences window will likely minimize when you open the meter window so restore it ) , now talk into your SPL meter, you should see movement on both meters in both the "Preferences" & the "Metering" windows .

Here's a screen shot of what I see doing what I just instructed you to do .










<> EarlK


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

When I look at the metering window while talking into the spl meter nothing happens. All I get is gray bars that don't move. The only way to move them is to calibrate the spl meter.


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## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

> When I look at the metering window while talking into the spl meter nothing happens. All I get is gray bars that don't move. The only way to move them is to calibrate the spl meter.


Did you also open the "Levels" window ? ( which I had mistakenly called, "Metering" ! ) 

FYI, in my setup, the meters within the preferences window remain greyed out, until that second "Levels" window gets opened / then the greyed-out meters ( within the preferences window ) also become active .

<. EarlK


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## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

- While your futzing about with audio settings for your new computer // make sure that the audio driver for the builtin soundcard is actually up to date . 

- Lenovo Driver Support for the * "Conexant 20672 SmartAudio HD" *

<> EarlK


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

I actually re-installed the conexant sound card before I started troubleshooting with you. I really think it is my choice of soundcard and I bet when my new one gets here that I will be amazed at how well it works. I also checked the levels window and still got nothing. I don't see what else it could be. The playing through a left input has to have something to do with the numark. I have also searched around and could not find anyone else that has ever used the numark with REW. So hopefully when it comes this week it will work. At least at that point you will be familiar with it.


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## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

I agree that it's not a good sign that you can't see input from your SPL meter coming into REW .

FWIW, before I write-off any piece of computer equipment ( such as a soundcard ) I test out it's functionality using other software to make sure it's not some hiccup connected to my understanding of the software .

Since your comfortable with your conclusion, we can take this up later when your replacement card arrives ( assuming I haven't "left the building"  ) .

<> cheers


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks everything so far Earl you have been extremely helpful. I bough a Behringer dsp1124 today as well. I put in a few manual adjustments today thanks to the guide on this forum. I managed to get both subs "relatively" flat down to 16hz. It sounds great and I'm really excited to see what it can do with REW guiding it rather than me. The Behringer soundcard should arrive tomorrow.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

For connecting the computer/REW to the BFD i only need 1 USB to MIDI cable? Is that the right cable to upload settings to the BFD?


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## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

> For connecting the computer/REW to the BFD i only need 1 USB to MIDI cable? Is that the right cable to upload settings to the BFD?


Yes, you'll need to buy a single USB to Midi adapter ( cable ) . ( BTW, make sure it works with Win7 . )

Here's a page you need to understand, ( to setup the 1124 to receive midi messages ) .










No, I don't know why ( so far ) your new 1124 isn't working for you ( perhaps continued reading of its operators manual will shed light on the situation ) .

<> EarlK


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

So I have all the cables, dsp1124, Behringer soundcard and I cannot calibrate the soundcard with windows 7. It is still playing on both channels and i am unable to get it to play on only the right with only the right RCA plugged in.

Then I moved onto my older computer and it plays on the right channel but doesn't play loud enough. How do I adjust the volume output?

Also should the Behringer be on or off for monitor. I'm guessing on.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

The problem is I can barely hear the sweeps. The needle on the spl meter is not even picking it up. When I raise the volume on the receiver up to -20db I get horrible feedback.


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## fitzwaddle (Aug 25, 2010)

Turn monitoring off, that's likely causing the feedback


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

I turned off the monitoring and that took away the feedback. It is still not nearly as loud as when I do a manual sinewave test tho.


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## fitzwaddle (Aug 25, 2010)

Did you try adjusting the volume using the volume/mixer control on the PC? And the level in REW?


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

Got it to play out of only the right channel by going into sound settings in the control panel and changing it from 1 channel, 16 bit, 44.100 to 2 channel, 16 bit 44,1000.

Now the only issue is I keep getting a warning saying:

Low signal level on measured."


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

This looks way to flat to be correct considering it is only for 1 sub. Also if I turn up the level (db FS) from -12 to -6...I no longer get the error message. Am I right thinking there is no way this is correct?


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

Earl,

To calibrate the sound card i have it at 4 out of 100 to be equal with the test which is at -12db. This seems awfully low. Now that I have it running and working correctly you can make some suggestions like you did last week. Anyone else that may know please chime In too thanks.


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Monitor must be off on the UCA222.

Post a graph of your soundcard loopback measurement so we can verify it was correct, to capture an image of the graph click the Capture button (icon of camera) at the top left of the graph. 4/100 is a very low input volume for soundcard cal, but if there was a feedback loop that might be the cause. 

After you have got a valid soundcard calibration the input volume may need to be adjusted to make measurements. You can make that adjustment when calibrating the REW SPL meter, adjust the input volume so that the level on the REW SPL meter horizontal bargraph is between -20 and -12 dB FS when you are playing a test signal that shows 75dB on your external meter.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

John,

Here are the screen shots of the sound card calibration.

Thanks


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Looks fine, would probably be slightly cleaner at 48k than at 44.1k but no cause for concern.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

The problem is that the volume being at 5 of 100 now is so low that I am unable to get my readings with the spl meter even when the receiver is at 0db.

Am I able to adjust the volume after the sound card calibration?


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Just turn it up.


JohnM said:


> After you have got a valid soundcard calibration the input volume may need to be adjusted to make measurements. You can make that adjustment when calibrating the REW SPL meter, adjust the input volume so that the level on the REW SPL meter horizontal bargraph is between -20 and -12 dB FS when you are playing a test signal that shows 75dB on your external meter.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

I am clipping now everytime i try to take a measurement. I have my volume adjusted to 0db on the receiver and i raised the volume on the OS so the output would equal 75db when i press the calibrate button. As you can see the horizontal spl meter is way off and not in the recomended -12 to -18 range as suggested by John. Also when i calibrate it i am unable to take readings higher than 76db which does me no good. Can anyone offer a solution?


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Well it would appear you turned it up too far! If 5/100 was too low and now it is too high, what did you increase it to? Adjust the input volume so it ends up in the right range, if that is not possible - i.e. a small increase in input volume causes a huge increase in level - you probably have a feedback loop caused by the input signal not being muted in the Windows playback mixer setting.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

What does it mean when it says I can only take readings to 76db. I would think that would be the problem?


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Mpray1983 said:


> What does it mean when it says I can only take readings to 76db. I would think that would be the problem?


That is just a consequence of clipping the input during the SPL calibration - if you are already overloading the input at that point then you won't be able to measure anything louder as it would just overload even more. The upper limit for measurement is the level you calibrate at plus the headroom you have at that level, so if you calibrate at 75dB and the input at that level is -16dB FS (for example) the maximum you could measure would be 75 + 16 = 91dB.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

Can you just tell me which volume to change...the volume on the computer?
The receiver?
The microphone volume?
The REW volume?

Which one?


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

The input volume, which from your earlier post looks to be labelled Microphone. Is that not the volume you were referring to when you said it was 5/100?

There are a lot of volume controls in the chain. You can probably leave REW's sweep level at -12 dB. Leave your receiver's volume control at the setting you normally listen at. Adjust the computer ("Speaker") volume so that the SPL meter cal test signal from REW gives 75 dB on your external SPL meter. If your computer volume is up full and the level is still too low, increase the receiver volume. Once those are right, adjust the Microphone volume so the figure just above the horizontal bar in the REW SPL meter is somewhere between -20 and -12.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

The first image is of my screen directly after my sound card calibration. this is how far i get. I have been adjusting every volume in the computer including the control panel volumes and i have the speaker volume set to 13% and the microphone volume within the control panel set to 50/100. My input level is set to .422. It is still not loud enough unless i turn up the volume directly on my on my cumpter to about 70% while leaving everything else alone. That makes it so the horizontal line in the REW SPL meter is too far in the red and not between -12 and -18 like you had previously suggested. Reveiver volume is at -15db.

The 2nd photo is a shot of my preferences tab directly after doing the sound card calibration.

The 3rd and 4th Photos are of the control panel speaker and microphone section to give you an idea of my levels and setup.

"Help me Obi Wan your my only help"


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

Doing everything you said landed me with this screen shot and my receiver at -13db. Does this look good and do you think i am ready to try a measurement?


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

Here is a first measurement...the main speakers are still hooked up as i dont want to take it apart until i know for sure i am on the right path


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

The green line is both subs together and the yellow line is just my left sub. This makes me think that it might actually be working at this time since i am actually getting readings from both.


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## fitzwaddle (Aug 25, 2010)

Looks like its working. Per the "Posting a Graph" sticky, set the vertical range to 45-105 dB, which will make the areas needing attention more obvious (uglier). Looks pretty good actually, the only big dip is fairly close to the crossover range.


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Mpray1983 said:


> Doing everything you said landed me with this screen shot and my receiver at -13db. Does this look good and do you think i am ready to try a measurement?


Yes, you've cracked it! Well done 

Tweak the graph limits as Brad says (makes it easier to compare the measurements with others we have seen) and you're in business.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

I did tweak them and it does look better. I will post when I get home. Do you guys trust the auto-filters implicitly or do you add manual filters after?


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

A little manual tweaking is often a good thing.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

My only real problem is a small dip at 71hz but I can't seem to raise it. REW only set up two filters for me so I guess I'm getting a relatively flat response in my room with two subs. 

Should I set up each sub individually or set them up together? So far I have set them up together and it seems to be working fine.


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Mpray1983 said:


> Should I set up each sub individually or set them up together? So far I have set them up together and it seems to be working fine.


Set them up together, running either sub individually will not produce the same result as running both together.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

alright guys here it is....

green line is pre BFD and PRE audyssey
blue line is audyssey with 3 filters in the BFD
Purple line is audyssey post BFD and dynamic EQ

I cant fix that dip at 71hz even if i lower my crossover to 70. I have the center and LR channels at 80. Im wondering if it would be a better idea to add a house curve in? Should i use that with Dynamic EQ or just by itself. How do i get the house curve to the BFD? Do i just go back to my original graph and upload my filters again?


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## fitzwaddle (Aug 25, 2010)

Now that you have the measurements working - first thing I'd do is experiment with different sub positions, and see what effect is has on sub-only measurements. There may be a position that gives you less problems with the 70 Hz area. Even a location with more lumps, but less severe, would be easier to work with. Have you tried different sub positions yet?

The position is the first step, before EQ.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

That's not really an option of placing it anywhere else. My only other option would be stack them.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

How do I use the house curve with REW. I have been using dynamic eq but i also want to try by adding one into REW. I understand it is just a simple text file but how do I send that to the BFD. Do I just plug in the midi USB cable and the house curve info transfers to the BFD?


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

The house curve acts as an offset on the REW target curve, so loading a house curve would alter the filter recommendations REW makes. Those revised filter settings would then be transferred to the BFD either manually or via Midi.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

I think I'm almost there to really getting this dialed in perfectly. 

Next question is:

When level matching the speakers to the sub after BFD filters are In place. 

Do I change subwoofer trim levels in receiver?

Do I change speaker trim levels in receiver?

Do I change the gain on the back of the amp? If I play with the gain on the back of the amp audyssey is unaware of the changes. 

I'm clipping at -15db at some parts in tron. So would adjusting all the trim levels in the receiver down a few db's keep my levels matched? Keep me from clipping? Keep the same audyssey equalization? Keep the same BFD equalization?


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## fitzwaddle (Aug 25, 2010)

After fiddling with sub EQ, I rerun MCACC and I'm pretty much good to go - AVR resets the sub trim level.



Mpray1983 said:


> I'm clipping at -15db at some parts in tron. So would adjusting all the trim levels in the receiver down a few db's keep my levels matched? Keep me from clipping? Keep the same audyssey equalization? Keep the same BFD equalization?


I had similar problems, my clipping was occurring at the BFD - input level too high on peaks. So I turned the sub amp all the way up, turned the AVR sub trim level way down, and then reran MCACC to let it auto set the trim level. The result is that the BFD sees a lower input level so it doesn't clip, but the amp gain is higher, so the resulting output level is the same, minus the clipping.

I actually still run into it once in a while, but not nearly as much, and only when I turn it up much higher. I've purchased a rack limiter to add to the food chain, to protect from clipping on the few extreme peaks. Haven't installed it yet.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

Here is what i got. I have a huge dip at 70hz that i was able to fix...The green line is using much heavier eq than the red so i prefer the red filter set. I had to boost because there was just no way around it. I tried everything to get rid of the drop at 70hz and this was the only way to try and fix it. The green uses more boost than the red so i have been sticking with the red. To solve the BFD clipping problem i turned up the gain on my subs to 75 db each before i ran audyssey and this made audyssey turn my subwoofer trim level down afterwards. I also matched my subwoofer level afterwards to my speaker levels using the HD Basics Blu ray. Let me know what you guys think.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

One last question is i have one amp channel at max and the other at the halfway point. Does this matter because this is how i got them both to be equal


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