# Yet another what sub thread. Money no object, but must be suitable



## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

I am building a dedicated HT room. Although I will also naturally play music also, but to a far lesser degree.
My equipment so far
Denon AVP-A1HD
Elektra T7 amplifier
Audyssey Sub EQ
JMlab 1027BEs
JMlab C1000BE

My room is only small at 17.4' x 13.5' and sloped ceiling. Giving a volume of around 2000ft3

The walls are solid plastered brick, with cement floor. The room is completel enclosed.

Now I really want 2 subs to address with room modes.

Due to space restrictions the larger subs will fit, but placement will be limited.

Choices

SVS PB13ultra x2 approx $3000AUD ea
Submersive x2 approx $3000AUD ea
JL F112 x2 $3610 ea
JL f113 x2 $4700 ea
others ??

The first two are obviously cheaper, but much larger.

I realise the JLs don't extend as low as the first two, but will that be a problem in a room of this size? I am expecting room gain to significantly increase this.

I have been offered a very good deal on the JLs, but time is ticking.

I would be grateful for peoples thoughts.

I should note that I am located in Australia, so not all the subs are available that are in the US. The Seaton would need to be imported, but wouldn't cost that much

Cheers
Jamie


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

If you can't demo them, my guess is that someone will recommend you go with your aesthetic desires as these are all great subs, if in fact the size differences won't affect placement options in your room.


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

ironglen, thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately an audition is out. Especially in the room they will be going in. At least not without buying one of each.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Any of the subs you mention are great, I personally like the PB13U as I have one of them however the JLF113's are also a tough to beat price for what you are getting. I am sure whatever two subs you go with in that list you will be very satisfied.:T


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Thanks Tony,

Another question related mostly to JL. In this size room, will I really notice a difference between 2 F112s and 2 F113s???


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Hi Jamie,

Its a nice position to be in with a cost no object to not make the decisions any harder, all the subs you have listed are of very high calibre and through all the data and feedback that is around for these subs I doubt you would be disappointed with any of them...

Ok the first selection SVS PB13 Ultras, this is a very popular choice as the subs produce prodigious amounts of bass and at very high SPL, this is at the expense of size for which they are very big indeed and this does affect a lot of people unless a dedicated room is where they are to be located, and even then it may still cause an issue due to space, also you get a simple but can be effective PEQ if simple tuning is required or 1 peak to deal with.

The second choice, the Seaton Submersive's, now there is not too much test data or feedback around compared to the SVS subs and I know of only 1 person who has one that I know of, but the people who do have moved from PB13's and have said that they are an improvement so that speaks volumes in it's self...size again is or could be an Issue but I very much doubt they would dissapoint.

The JL Audio subs, firstly the F112's now these would probably be the least performers but still offering good amounts of quality bass and they also have a good EQ system built in so setup would be simpler and some also prefer the smaller drive units which some may say are faster and therefore may potentially perform better for music, and are the smallest subs of the bunch

Now the F113's are the bigger of the JL subs and with the increased cone area you get higher SPL and more depth, also the EQ is a bonus and a worthy edition for setting up and size is certainly more compact compared to the SVS or Seaton offering.

decisions, decisions...all of them are excellent and a tough one for sure...

my first one to cross off would be the F112's as I would personally go for its better performing brother, it just makes more sense as they are so similar but with the F113 it will play louder and deeper for a little more money and I bet they would perform equally well with music, so it leaves the SVS, Seaton and F113.

Now if it were my money then after owning the SVS PB13, yes it is a great performer but if it can be bettered by the Seaton I am therefore more willing to bet that they would be the better choice over the SVS offerings or else you will always be left wondering what if..I would also feel this way with the JL F113 subs but they are beautiful to look at and also have a good EQ solution included and if size does bother then it would take some to beat them...

Ok I will stop my rambling and will say if it were my money I would take the bet on the new Seaton subs and throw in an SVS EQ1 to iron out any room issues that may be trouble some and I bet you would have one serious sub bass system :bigsmile:

Edit: forget the EQ1 as I now see you have the Audyssey EQ anyway, so even better!!




wilsonj said:


> I am building a dedicated HT room. Although I will also naturally play music also, but to a far lesser degree.
> My equipment so far
> Denon AVP-A1HD
> Elektra T7 amplifier
> ...


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

Of the subs you listed I only have personally experience with the JL F113 as that was the last commercial sub I owned before going the DIY route. The JL was the last but also the best commercial sub I have ever owned. I did have a pair of SVS CS-Ultras which are different beasts then the PB13U but if they have a similar response then it would go that the SVS will give you more low end but the JL will have much better mid-bass. The JL was also a lot better with music than the SVS but then again it was better in that regard than any other sub I have owned.

If your main concern is movies though the submersives or PB13U will give you more output and headroom than the JL subs. With your size room though I can't imagine you would be unhappy with a pair of F112's or 113's and the bass quality would be outstanding.

Nice list of subs you have decided to choose from:T


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

wilsonj said:


> In this size room, will I really notice a difference between 2 F112s and 2 F113s???


Not likely, I think two of any of the subs you listed will be more than enough to put a smile on your face.


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Thanks everyone for the advice.

I think I have to rule the PB13 out, due to its size. Unless I can upholster it and use it as a chair, the second one would really be in the way!

The submersive appears to be the best performer of all of the subs, and is still one of the cheapest, if not the.

The JLs win for placement and looks, but loose on bottom end and price. Although I am still wondering if the bottom end will be that much different to the submersive in a small room like mine.
I have built a number of subs over the years, and am competant with REW. I've seen first hand what putting a speaker in a corner does.

I did consider making my own sub too. But I fear it would not perform as well as the ones I've listed, and end up bigger.

So now its down to F112s F113s and submersive.

Of the JLs I'm not sure I will notice the difference at normal listening levels. But then it must be a guy thing, because I can't rule out the F113.....

Maybe I could buy a submersive and f113 and compare!? Only prob is that I don't get as good price on a single F113.

Regards
Jamie


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

The pair of JL's won't match the volume or depth of a pair of submersives but you have to consider it is a pair of 13" drivers in a small cabinet compared to 4 15" drivers in a big cabinet. Your comparing apples to oranges here.

I wouldn't rule out DIY either. The first sub I built outperformed the JL audio F113 for movies and was close for music. It wasn't exactly cheap but still a lot less than the F113. The Maelstrom X from diycable.com is an excellent 18" driver that would work great in a smaller sealed enclosure if driven by a powerful enough amp and EQ.

If you can fit the submersives then go for it but if not then you are not going to be disappointed with the F113's either. I would just make a few DIY subs and be done with it though as you can make them to fit your space and the performance if done right is incredible.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I have been seriously tempted by the JL Audio F113 subs in the past but I am also tempted by the Submersive too, oh bass is a wonderful thing :whistling:

btw - it would be great if you could get both and then give us the full rundown/comparisons


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Well at this stage I think I will get the submersives. The JLs are surely nice, but probably not worth the premium, given they won't perform quite as well. I am aware they also have a high pass filter in the teens. Good for safety, but not good for bass extension.

If the JLs performance was on par with the submersives, I would probably pay the extra, for the smaller nicer looking box.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

Sounds like a wise choice.


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

I think that's the compromise you have to make, "Smaller, nicer looking box." In this hobby, size generally matters; and bigger usually is better. JL Audio defies that logic and produces a subwoofer that has a small overall size and outperforms many subs. Of course, quality subs like the Submersive still beat it, but at what cost? It's a larger sub and nowhere near as fancy looking as the Fathom.

I think the submersives are an excellent choice and I think you will be happy with them and you will be able to spend the money saved from opting out of the JL Audio subs elsewhere, too.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

wilsonj said:


> Well at this stage I think I will get the submersives. The JLs are surely nice, but probably not worth the premium, given they won't perform quite as well. I am aware they also have a high pass filter in the teens. Good for safety, but not good for bass extension.
> 
> If the JLs performance was on par with the submersives, I would probably pay the extra, for the smaller nicer looking box.


Excellent choice Jamie, look forward to your feedback on the Seaton subs :T


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

If money isn't an object why not get a cabinet builder to build some custom cabinets. A single sealed Axis build will smoke the JL Audio subs.

Remember to always go for quality over quantity.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

Well if you are talking about Audiopulse/TC Sounds drivers then I would wait until December when the LMS 5400 18" comes out which is one of the best subwoofers available. 
I like and own a pair of Axis 12's and a pair of TC-3000 15" which is the Axis equivalent and really like them but there mid-bass is a little wanting. 

lsiberian, do you use the Axis and if so what size box, ported or sealed?


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Guys, isn't an 18" DIY going to be too big?? It really needs to FIT in the room. Remeber I want 2.

One problem I see with using Pro amps also is that I want all my equipment in the equipment room, not out in the HT. This would require running 30+ feet of speaker cable, probably the thickness of my wrist (ok exaggerating a little)

A high quality plate amp would be the only solution I would consider. And I haven't seen many off the shelf units that produce equiv pro power levels. At least not at a reasonable price. I say reasonable, as I don't see much point in building a DIY sub that costs way more than something I can buy, that I know the performance of.

Where does one find this axis 15" driver?


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Interestingly looking at Ilkka's charts http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...hived/5748-cea-2010-standard-compilation.html

The F113 doesn't fair too bad!! even at 12.5hz it still performs as good and better than most at any size. Remembering that I would have two of them so in room response down low should still be very good.

Actually nothing other than the 18" drivers and the PB13 out perform it at 12.5hz. Oh and the TC2000 in a 270L box ported.

So, I'm now wondering again.....


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

I am telling you the F113 is an excellent sub that works wonders for the size of the cabinet. I have owned the F113 but not the submersive. It doesn't take rocket science to figure that the submersive with dual 15"s would play louder than the JL's single 13" though. 

The LMS 5400 18" is an all out driver with a projected price of $1,600 each when it is available. I chickened out when I had a chance to buy one before and regret it since it is a lot more expensive now. The great thing about the LMS is it can be used in a decent sized enclosure for an 18" but it wants a lot of power.

Here is a couple of builds with the LMS 5400:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-subwoofers/16189-lms-5400-18-6-1-cu-ft-sealed.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...-ae-2x18-2500g-page-ranking-build-thread.html

This one is awwwwe inspiring:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ed-ported/9281-4-18-5400s-8-passives-wow.html

The Axis 15" is not available right now until maybe December but to be honest with you it is a power hog too and the mid-bass on the JL is better. I replaced my F113 with the TC3000 15"(Axis) since for movies it was just more violent which I liked but for music I would choose the F113 over it anyday. I have a pair of TC-3000 15" which is the same as the Axis and am planning on making a pair of enclosures about 6 cubic feet with 2 15" passive radiators each. These should really light up the room in not just my house but the neighbors as well:devil: 
I will probably only use 1 though and make a pair of smaller subs to handle the mid-bass.

Here is a build by the owner of this forum Sonnie using a pair of 15" Axis which is outstanding:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/15286-building-pulse.html

You can't go wrong with either the F113 or Submersive. If you want a lot of quality bass in a small enclosure get the F113, if you want even more bass get the submersives. Either way this should be your reactionarty:


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Hi Sub_crazy,

thanks for your reply.

Will I really need more output, in my small solid brick walled pressure vessel? (room that is) I would imagine two F113s would put out more than enough bass. The submersives would be a step up again, Although possibly not as much as one might expect. The 4" excursion of the JL surely makes up a lot of ground. I'm not sure on the excursion of the submersives but I don't think they are excessive.

Just sent Mark an email on cost to ship to Australia.....

I'll get one submersive. If I decide its just too big then I'll sell it and try the JL. I'll take more of a hit selling a fathom than submersive.

Talk about flip flop!!


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

A 18' by 14' room approx. would do very nicely with a pair of JL's. I had about the same dimensions in my old home and 1 F113 did just fine but that was in only 1 spot in the room which I got lucky with. In my new home that 1 JL would struggle but the room is much larger and even my Mal-X 18" struggles by-itself. 

I am a nut about subwoofers as my name suggests and the JL audio really shocked my by how good it was. If I were not a DIY guy I would have definitely got a submersive to compare but now I would rather build one.

Your picking from 2 of the best commercial subs out there so it would be hard to make a bad choice. 

I wish someone here who has had both subs would chime in.


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

sub_crazy, if you get a chance, I suggest you check out the new PB13-Ultra. At half of the cost of the Fathom, I think it a fantastic contender. According to craigsub's subwoofer shootout from AVS and TweakCityAudio, the PB13-Ultra beats out the Fathom by a good decent margin.

In comparison, the PB-Ultra (TV-12 Driver) similar to the CS-Ultras you had didn't do nearly as well as the Fathom.

As a subwoofer fanatic, I think you would appreciate the differences, as well. I have yet to hear the Submersive, personally, but everyone I've talked to who has compared them to similar subs (F113, PB13-Ultra/PC13-Ultra, Epik Castle/Conquest, etc) said that the Submersive bests them.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

Thanks for the suggestion Jon,

I know SVS makes excellent products and there customer service is second to none. I have no doubt the PB13 is great but I was just going off of personal experience on the JL and everyone elses experience with the submersive which as you mentioned seems to be at the top of the heep.

I will probably never try a submersive or PB13 though as I am an addicted DIY subwoofer nut now. For the price of a PB13 I can build at least a pair of subs that would beat a single PB13 easily. 

I don't really plan on owning anymore commercial subs for the foreseeable future as building subs in my limited spare time is a form of relaxation for me. I may try an occasional commercial offering only to compare to my own work and make sure I am near the top performance wise.

Which subs do you own Jon?


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

I used to own the PB13-Ultra. I no longer use a sub. My mains handle all my low frequency effects now. I know, I know, you might ask how that can be... but, they can and they do!  In my room I get a flat response to pretty much 18Hz with my mains. My speakers provide cleaner and quicker low frequencies than any sub that I've heard to date as well. The PB13-Ultra even in sealed mode could not keep up with the agility, which is why I ultimately ended up selling it.

Before that, I owned the PC-Ultra (TV-12) and before that I owned the SVS 20-39PCi. Before that, it's not worth mentioning . I've heard the Fathom on several occasions and relatively recently heard the Gotham, too. I really like the Gotham and the Fathom. If I had the money I'd spring for two Gothams just because they are pure works of art.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

There some speakers Jon :T I just wish I had the room to accomodate such beauties


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

I checked out your profile Jon, great speakers!

You are lucky though that the location where your speakers sound there best also happens to provide great bass response. I have full range Von Schweikerts for all channels except the back surrounds but in my new home I can't get the same bass response as my old home so running them full range doesn't cut it.

24 6 1/2" woofers I bet sound nice and that is one of a design. Are they 7 feet tall? Kind of reminds me of the Dunlavy designs in size.

Good stuff!


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## Mika75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Jamie, the speaker cable length is not an issue (think about that next time ur at a live concert or the Cinema) Plate amplifiers do not compare with the Pro rack mounts, & having those amplifiers out of the room looks much better IMO.

Seeing as ur in Sth Aus, why don't u pop into VAF and listen to the MBP?


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

Yeah I've gotten several comments about the speakers being similar to the Dunlavy designs! Regardless, back to original poster's topic, ultimately, any of the subs that are chosen are top-choice performers. I really cannot express that enough.


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Mika75, I seem to have an aversion to VAF products. Not sure I could fit the MBP in anyway, as it comes in pairs. Theres also not much info on it either. All sales talk. Thanks for the suggestion though.

I just put in an order on 1 submersive. I'm negotiating on a F113 also. As I can't decide, I'll get one of each and sell the one that doesn't suit my needs.

At this stage I think it will go like this.
Submersion- best performance, probably can't live with the size.
F113- close performance, can't live with the price but size and looks are perfect!


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

Let us all know your opinion if you do have the opportunity to audition both at home. Have fun!


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Yup, thats the plan, as I can't decide otherwise.

here's a thought. How about I keep em both. use the submersive for effects and get another F113, so two for L + R. The Denon AVP has 3 sub outs.......


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

The more subs the merrier:spend:


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Just got a ripper of a deal on a F113. 

Now its just a matter of sitting back and waiting!!! Although the F113 will be available next week the submersive will be a little way off. Not sure how long it will take to freight it, but my guess would be at least a month.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Can't wait to hear your feedback on the subs Jamie, are you importing the F113 via the Soundoctor cause Barry Ober is a top guy?


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

No, I'm getting the F113 locally. They have just reduced their price by $1000. With discount its quite good, for a fathom.

Does this sound doctor have 240 volt versions??


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

wilsonj said:


> No, I'm getting the F113 locally. They have just reduced their price by $1000. With discount its quite good, for a fathom.
> 
> Does this sound doctor have 240 volt versions??


Ah I see, In the UK JL Audio do not have a distributor and therefore we need to use an importer and Barry does do the 240v for distribution to us, but if you can source locally then that is better..


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Well I have the JL F113. Nice little sub. I was surprised how small it was. I knew the measurements buts its always different in the flesh.
So far I haven't had much time with it, and only used it with music. But its tight and fast to my ears. I did put a test disc through it with sinewaves down to 10hz. Although I haven't done any measurements I was a little dissapointed and surprised how easy I could reach the mechanical limits at 20 and 30 hz. Anything above 30 and I couldn't make it misbehave. impressive from there up.

Now just have to wait for the submersive to arrive.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Any limits you are reaching are likely from the amp not the sub driver. Those drivers can take a bridged pro-amp and they have incredibly high excursion ratings. You are simply limited by the fact they are sealed and have a weaker amp. Still I consider it a beautiful powerful well built sub. I'd be shocked if you could bottom out the driver.


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

lsiberian said:


> Any limits you are reaching are likely from the amp not the sub driver. Those drivers can take a bridged pro-amp and they have incredibly high excursion ratings. You are simply limited by the fact they are sealed and have a weaker amp. Still I consider it a beautiful powerful well built sub. I'd be shocked if you could bottom out the driver.


Hmm, well bottoming out is exactly what it seems to be doing. Looking at the JL insignia on the Sub I can gauge roughly how far the driver is moving. Looks to me about 3 inches, which is what its rated at, so I understand.

The test will be with real world signals, not test tones. It maybe very different with movies.


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

is DIY an option? Do you have a space suitable for an IB installation?


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

I'd love IB, but its not possible in my room.

DIY is always an option, and has been in the past. Just couldn't be stuffed this time! I'd rather buy off the shelf nowadays.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

The F113's strength is with music and it is best run with 2 or more for movies IMO unless you have a small room and a good spot to place it. 

I hope the submersive arrives soon as I would like to hear you thoughts. My guess would be an edge for music with the F113 and better movie performance with the submersive.

Have fun.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

wilsonj said:


> Well I have the JL F113. Nice little sub. I was surprised how small it was. I knew the measurements buts its always different in the flesh.
> So far I haven't had much time with it, and only used it with music. But its tight and fast to my ears. I did put a test disc through it with sinewaves down to 10hz. Although I haven't done any measurements I was a little dissapointed and surprised how easy I could reach the mechanical limits at 20 and 30 hz. Anything above 30 and I couldn't make it misbehave. impressive from there up.
> 
> Now just have to wait for the submersive to arrive.


Excellent news Jamie, look forward to all your feedback with comparisons to the Submersive :T


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

I can't wait until you get the Submersive to compare too!


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

The submersive is still probably 3-4 weeks away. Fingers crossed it gets here before xmas!

I'm really kinda hoping that the submersive doesn't outperform the JL by any great amount, as the JL is such an impressive looking speaker! and the perfect size too.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

I vote you let me know what those speakers are , they must have 10 or 12" inch drivers in them?

On the sub front, while the SVS is excellent for depth, I reckon the others will beat in on musicality, so if thats important then I would have my decision swayed by that. As has been said before as well, placement can be everything, and I would choose a sub I could move about more easily myself. Without a demo, that would rule the big SVS out from personally. Not very helpful for choosing between the other 2 I know, but as the submersive will go deeper I would lean towards that myself.

Just what my thoughts would be.


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Moonfly, totally agree about placement. It really is the key to good sub performance. Although the JL is relatively small, its soooo heavy it may as well be much bigger!!!

Size is an issue, as is quality with music. If size wasn't an issue I would probably just buy the submersives and be done with it. I will have to weigh up if the extra performance warrants the extra size I need to deal with.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

I agree that the JL is shockingly heavy for it's size. It is nice that they include those tacky gloves to move it around though.


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

I'm thinking I'll make a trolly to move my subs around! 

The gloves are a nice touch. I would have liked diamontes in them though!


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

The drive units structure/magnets are huge on the JL subs and am not surprised they are so heavy, the Velodyne DD range are similar...


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

wilsonj said:


> I'm thinking I'll make a trolly to move my subs around!
> 
> The gloves are a nice touch. I would have liked diamontes in them though!


If your floors a wooden then sliding the subs around on a rug is easiest and helps protects the floor. For a carpeted floor, a nice sheet of thick plastic does the trick. Will be easier than messing with a trolley, which I would only probably use on something like a tiled floor.

Do you have any sub at the minute, if so you could test your room out by finding which spots seem to work best with that. This may help give you an idea of the positions in your room your looking at, and the available size. Obviously, any sub you have now must have inferior performance to anything your going to buy, so it wont help much with really low frequencies, but doing that to help build a picture up or how your room responds to bass could be useful. Its not a guarantee though, so if you do try that, take the results under advisement rather than gospel.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

The Velodyne DD range is only close in that the DD18's shipping weight is 120 lbs were the JL F113 specs out at 130 lbs.

The cabinets of the DD18 don't come close to the F113. I have never had a DD18 but did own a HGS 18 which excludes the EQ. To me the F113 is a much better sub with or without eq. If you have a chance to open up both subs and see how they are constructed the JL is the much better build.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

sub_crazy said:


> The Velodyne DD range is only close in that the DD18's shipping weight is 120 lbs were the JL F113 specs out at 130 lbs.
> 
> The cabinets of the DD18 don't come close to the F113. I have never had a DD18 but did own a HGS 18 which excludes the EQ. To me the F113 is a much better sub with or without eq. If you have a chance to open up both subs and see how they are constructed the JL is the much better build.


The DD series in all fairness is looking dated now considering they were first designed probably all the way back in 2003 IIRC, it is about time Velodyne updated there range...


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

recruit said:


> The DD series in all fairness is looking dated now considering they were first designed probably all the way back in 2003 IIRC, it is about time Velodyne updated there range...


Back in the day the DD was at or near the top of the heap but times have changed. I agree with you that Velodyne needs to update there top of the line subs especially considering what can be had in the same price range.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

sub_crazy said:


> Back in the day the DD was at or near the top of the heap but times have changed. I agree with you that Velodyne needs to update there top of the line subs especially considering what can be had in the same price range.


It's funny really as although I have owned couple of the DD subs, I actually preferred the sound from the HGS range, but Velodyne seem to have been tweaking there lower range subs and not wanting to concentrate on bringing out a newer top of the range model :huh:


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Just a quick update. I'm still waiting for the submersive to arrive. But last night I got REW out and did some testing. In case anyone is interested, and its probably posted somewhere, but the F113 really rolls off around 15hz. Which is still pretty good. 

On another note, I watched master and commander, WOTW and Cloverfield. I have to say in my temporary room one F113 was enough! Room size roughly 10m (30ft) x 8m (24ft)

Its a pretty impressive sub. Can't wait to try the submersive. My prediction is the submersive will really perform much better below 15hz . As for the rest.....

I'll also be interested to see how it handles the opening (bad robot) of cloverfield. The last bass note is quite taxing. I know this has bee discussed at length on other forums, and the bass is not that clean. Non the less the comparison should be good. The JL reaches its limits quite easy on the last boom.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

While your trying stuff out I suggest the Danley and JTR offerings.


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

There is lots I'd like to try, but I found the bottom of my pockets.:crying:


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

wilsonj said:


> There is lots I'd like to try, but I found the bottom of my pockets.:crying:


I know the feeling. I'm hardcore into this hobby, but lack of a workspace coupled with lack of funds makes me very restless. All I want to do is build something. :hissyfit:


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Jamie, hopefully your Seaton has arrived. The Submersive is a fantastic subwoofer and I am sure you are going to be enthralled.
Cheers,
JJ


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Hi JJ,

nope still not here. There was a hold up with the freight company so it was almost a month before it got sent. 8-( Don't think I will see it before xmas now. Oh well, you know what they say about those who wait!

Cheers
Jamie


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

patience is a virtue, which I certainly do not have :whistling:


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

lol. It's weird, I am generally a very patient person, but when it comes to this hobby specifically, I am not!

Jamie, I look forward to your impressions of the Submersive when you get it! I would love to have one (or two) myself just to play around with.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

This hobby is just our grown up toys so of course we can't wait to get them:bigsmile:

I am in the same camp as all of you, when I decide to get something I want it asap. Patience......bah humbug:hissyfit:


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The Submersive is simply sick. Truly one of the best Subwoofers I have ever experienced. I cannot imagine what the shipping/Customs must have cost to get one all the way to Oz.
Cheers,
JJ


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Well patience is something I have learned over the years. Not to say I like waiting of course, especially for toys like this!

The freight is around $300US, plus a few hundred for customs. Still makes it great value, and about $1500AUD less than the JL.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Wow. That is not bad at all. I thought it would have been so much more than that.
Cheers,
JJ


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

I have all the patience in the world while I'm researching, digging, figuring out, asking, learning, bargaining, :nerd: etc... then when I make the decision, I pull the trigger, and then it has to be here yesterday.
:hissyfit:


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

A humorous phrase I once read comes to mind.

"............if I wanted it tomorrow, I would have ordered it tomorrow"

At "least" I have a JL F113 to keep me company in the mean time!!! Its no slouch. Just watched AVP this arvo. Not much of a movie really, but it had some good SFX. Really had the room rumbling.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I would not mind having a JL F113 to tide me over :bigsmile:


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

So true! I still really like the look of the JL Audio subs! The price is quite a bit higher than competing subs, but their look is just something else - ESPECIALLY the Gotham!


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Another quick update.

My submersive has finally landed in OZ. Hopefully some time next week I will have it set up and able to do some comparisons.

In the mean time I moved my JL F113 to a much smaller room of approx 2500ft^3. The original room was around 5600ft^3

I used the opening robot scene at the start of cloverfield as a measure of head room. In the larger room I could quite easily push the sub into protection. In the smaller room it performs much better, and I am yet to hear the sub complain, even when I run it 10db hot. In fact the performance in general is quite frightening at times, especially the lightening strike in chapter two of Ratatouille. My chest almost hurts!

I may return the JL to the larger room to test against the submersive though. As this should allow me to find the subs limits much easier.

Regards
Jamie


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
If you have a 9.2 AVR like Onkyo's TX-NR3007, you could setup both subs in your room with each getting its own Audyssey calibration so they might work well in tandem.

I realize this is controversial, but it might be worth a try to hear how it sounds. Regardless, congrats on finally getting your Submersive to OZ.
Cheers,
JJ


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

I agree with JJ.

A lot of people talk about it being best to use the same sub in the same room but I have never had any problems using 2 different subs. The only time it might not work out well is if you have a quick, loud horn loaded sub with a slow sealed sub located in the same position but who knows.

The JL has great mid-bass and with it's small size would be good to located near your listening position for some extra slam. I am sure the submersive has some great mid-bass as well but with it's large size may be difficult to locate near the listening position.

Either way you got 2 of the best subs made............have fun.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I look forward to your comparison of the Seaton sub vs the JL F113, I would expect the Submersive to have more depth and power lower down but might lose out to the JL in the upper bass section, but only time will tell, so hurry up :heehee:


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Thanks guys, I'll do my best to write my comparison as soon as possible.

I have a Denon AVP-A1HD so I can actually do 9.3. I also have the audyssey sub EQ that handles two individual subs. I was always planning on using 2 subs, just not sure which two. I could just say stuff it and keep one of each!! I think even if the submersive totally outperforms the JL I would now have a hard time parting with it. Especially parting with it and loosing money! 

I ran some test tones today too. Although I didn't have REQ setup, I got the impression that I was getting considerable room gain below what I found to be the steep cutoff. In the larger room output dropped of very quick below 16hz. Now I don't have numbers to back it up, but I could feel and hear things rattling strongly to ~13hz.


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

Jamie, looking forward to your review as well. I have the AVP-A1HD and love it as a Pre/Pro. I've wanted to get a submersive for a while, but as of right now and in the current room, I don't need a sub with my current speakers, which is why I sold the SVS PB-13Ultra off.


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Its here its here!!

I've unpacked the monster and placed it in the smaller room. Its a real hassle to move both subs to the larger room, as its a seperate room not part of the house. Neither sub is a light weight!!

OK so I just spent half an hour having a listen. I've set it up without audyssey for now, so no EQ at all.

It sounds a little different, but I'm not sure I could pick it blind folded. Not suprisingly when level matched it is quite similar with most material.

I played clover-field and ratatouille. Both sounded excellent.

Next I tried my test tone disc. At the lower frequencies the submersive really performed well. I have no measurement equipment setup at the moment, and I was just looking at the window, and how much it flexed!!

I was worried at 10 hz that the window was actually going to break, it was flexing THAT much. The JL at the same settings had it moving, but only about 2/3rds as much. Not real scientific I know, but I also really wanted to know if I could really hear/feel a difference, not just measure one.

I have to say after only half an hour, so far I think I prefer the JL, simply because its a smaller package, and really seems to do 97% as well.

Things could be much different in a larger room though. I get the distinct impression the submersive has bag loads of head room. The JL does not, at least when playing lower notes.

I'll spend more time listening over the next few days and see if my first impressions change.

Oh, any good bass passages I should try?


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Thanks Jamie for your feedback and science and figures does not always tell you the whole story as the best measuring tool is your ears and how you feel the bass, I would let the submersive loosen up a bit and you will most definitely get more from it, but it also tells you that the JL Audio F113 is also very good indeed 

The usual films for demoing - War Of The Worlds - Minority Report - Cloverfield - Flight Of the Phoenix -Dark Knight - Iron Man - Kung Fu Panda.

For Audio try  The Police "Certifiable"  which is a brilliant soundtrack on BD and Stuart Copland on the drums is amazing.

For 2 channel audio have a look at this thread http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/music-concerts/25121-nor-elle-phantom-life-cd.html


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## wilsonj (Jun 1, 2007)

Yes. There is no doubt in my mind the submersive goes lower, but only when the material calls for it. Which in reality isn't often. The JL still has usable output down low, just not as much.

In my mind the biggest down fall for the JL is that it is more expensive, and its greatest attribute is its small size. I think these two factors should play a bigger role in the decision to purchase than performance alone. As will the room size.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

The JL Audio F113 certainly wins in the looks department too, one of the best looking subs for sure but luckily enough it also offers great performance and is very good with music, I have been speaking with Barry Ober who is one of the Ex Senior engineers when M&K was still owned by Ken Kriesel and he sells the JL Audio range of subs to europe and he has nothing but praise for there subs and is very knowledgeable chap when it comes to speakers and although he has a vested interest in them I believe him when he says that they are up there with the best.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

I am not surprised the JL impresses you, it is the best commercial sub I ever owned before I went DIY full bore. The JL is still best in terms of sound quality and the way it accurately portrays every bass note, it's main downfall is in output but you can remedy this by using multiples. If I ever were to go back to commercial subs then a pair of JL Audio Gothams would be my choice if money was not a concern, second would be a pair of F113's. 

With all that said I have never heard the submersives so I defer to your observations after it has had time to break in a bit.


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