# Moved Posts: HTPC vs. Networked Blu-ray vs Media Streamers



## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Post relocated from this thread to keep non-build discussion out of OP's build thread: http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ia-servers/48188-ultimate-htpc-onesource.html

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No doubt, this is a frustrating trend. Still, my computer can play Hulu, Netflix, YouTube, Blu-ray, DVD, and pretty much any other streaming or downloaded content. Name one other box that can do that.

Do I wish I had a Vudu option? Maybe. Do I wish I had 5.1 Netflix? Definitely. But at the end of the day, after monkeying for years with media streamers and magic boxes, I came to the conclusion that a PC is the right choice for anyone who needs a broad range of content.

That said, I'm continually amazed by what you can get in a $100 box these days. Roku is my go to for family members who want to cut the cord.


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## StereoClarity (Apr 22, 2008)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

^Troof!


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



eugovector said:


> No doubt, this is a frustrating trend. Still, my computer can play Hulu, Netflix, YouTube, Blu-ray, DVD, and pretty much any other streaming or downloaded content. Name one other box that can do that.


These days, just about any cheap blu ray player. My $100 player has all that plus pandora, but it does lack hulu. Im sure a little bit of research would reveal a cheap player with the specific features you want, and for a fraction of what you spent on your htpc. Even then, no matter how hard you try, a htpc is still a complicated computer and it will likely never be as stable or user friendly as a blu ray player. It also creates more noise (short of research and spending the money on super quiet cooling), is a much larger component than a blu ray player (unless you stick with macro), and creates more heat and draws more juice than any blu ray player would. As far as Im concerned the only thing a much more expensive and complicated htpc has over a basic cheap blu ray player is the ability to archive lots of media into one interface, which takes lots of time, research, and storage space to be done correctly. Before full-featured blu ray players I would have agreed but not so much in todays world.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

I think you may need to revisit Blu-ray specs. On any given day, I watch Hulu, Netflix, and You Tube, listen to pandora. I haven't seen any players with all of these. Roll in ESPN 3, Spotify, ripped disc images, and it's no contest.

I realize all of these aren't important to non-cable cutters, but for those of use that are, a blu-ray just won't cut it. For casual internet media folk, BR is just fine.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



eugovector said:


> I think you may need to revisit Blu-ray specs. On any given day, I watch Hulu, Netflix, and You Tube, listen to pandora. I haven't seen any players with all of these. Roll in ESPN 3, Spotify, ripped disc images, and it's no contest.
> 
> I realize all of these aren't important to non-cable cutters, but for those of use that are, a blu-ray just won't cut it. For casual internet media folk, BR is just fine.


And I think you need to revisit my post. These are very _common_ specs that are offered, in full, in cheap blu ray players and have been for some time now. Frankly, Im not sure why you sound like youre denying that when everything you listed is main-stream in both blu ray players AND TVs in todays world. Sounds like you should be checking your specs instead of me. 

I even specifically mentioned my cheap simple $100 player does everything you listed, minus maybe hulu, which is easy to find in other models. I may not have the more obscure streaming services and shear archiving abilities but that doesnt make my _very_ cheap blu ray player "non-cable cutter" and very comparable in streaming services AND format support to your htpc.

Heres my ghetto Samsung BDP1600 player specs, amazon like new for $100, wifi an extra $30:

Blockbuster, Netflix, YouTube & Pandora
JPEG Photo Playback
MPEG-2
MP3/WMA files
DVD+RW
DVD-R
DVD-RW
CD-RW
CD-R
H.264
VC-1 
DVD+R
BD-ROM
BD-R
BD-RE
DVD
CD


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

No need to get upset, I'm not bashing your choice of blu-ray player. What I'm saying is that, for cable-cutters, I don't think they offer anywhere near the flexibility that an HTPC does. A cable cutter will gladly put up with some interface woes.

Like I said, for what I'm using it for, a blu-ray player won't cut it. When I want to watch the latest PBS documentary on the Bard Prison Initiative (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec11/makingsense_07-26.html) I can't do that from a blu-ray player. When I want to watch a live telecast of the Iowa Hawkeye game on ESPN 3, I can do that from an XBox or a PC, but no blu-ray player that I know of. When Colbert and the Daily Show left Hulu, and the only play they could be found was Comedy Central's website, an HTPC was the only choice.

I've used Blu-rays, Popcorn Hours, Roku, Boxees, D-link's flawed experiments...nothing gives you the flexibility of an HTPC. They are good for what they do, but comparing the two is comparing apples and oranges. You prefer oranges, I prefer apples. It doesn't make one of us better than the other.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

For the record, they have started rolling Hulu into the latest players so, for instance, the Sony BDP-S380 will do what I call my big 4: Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, and Pandora. That said, those 4 only account for about 70% of my watching, depending on what time of year it is. A web browser really is essential for my viewing until the day comes that we truly go to internet channels as broadcast medium. 

I hope that within 10 years we see a new big 3 networks emerge: Netflix, Hulu, and who-knows-maybe-vudu? They can duke it out to provide competition to keep prices low, and we can all get on-demand video without the real power-suckers: DVR cable boxes that run 24/7.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



eugovector said:


> What I'm saying is that, for cable-cutters, I don't think they offer anywhere near the flexibility that an HTPC does.


My cheap player specs say otherwise.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



TypeA said:


> My cheap player specs say otherwise.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Time for me to go watch the 2nd half of that PBS NewsHour on my HTPC.


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## rantanamo (May 13, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



TypeA said:


> My cheap player specs say otherwise.


sorry, but that's just a joke and its not even close. When a new service show up, your player is SOL.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



rantanamo said:


> sorry, but that's just a joke and its not even close.


Please elaborate, what does my player lack? And try not to list major services that cant be easily found in other models.



rantanamo said:


> When a new service show up, your player is SOL.


Try telling that to Oppo blu ray disk player owners, sir. 

Heres some choice tid-bits from their latest update, in case you missed it:

"Added VUDU HD Movies streaming"

"The Netflix interface is upgraded to version 2.1. This upgrade allows for Canadian customers to stream Netflix and adds the "Search" function."

Would you like to take bets on how soon Oppo will add Hulu Plus and/or 5.1 Support for Netflix?


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## rantanamo (May 13, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



TypeA said:


> Please elaborate, what does my player lack? And try not to list major services that cant be easily found in other models.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My point was that you can add any and every service to an HTPC, that works with a PC, whereas a player upgrade depends on a set point of memory that may or may not have the capacity or ability to add many services. Don't know how there's an argument for that.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



> My point was that you can add any and every service to an HTPC, that works with a PC, whereas a player upgrade depends on a set point of memory that may or may not have the capacity or ability to add many services. Don't know how there's an argument for that.


And my point is that there are only so many mainstream services available, all easily covered by a single brp with an easy to use interface. I suppose if you need six audio services and ten video services to satisfy your needs you really deserve the experience of trying to surf on your big screen from 10' away...

Next time try being more specific rather than just sounding like an insult.


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## rantanamo (May 13, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



TypeA said:


> And my point is that there are only so many mainstream services available, all easily covered by a single brp with an easy to use interface. I suppose if you need six audio services and ten video services to satisfy your needs you really deserve the experience of trying to surf on your big screen from 10' away...
> 
> Next time try being more specific rather than just sounding like an insult.


You're trying to compare your BRP to a fully functioning HTPC, yet it sounds like you've never experienced one. Properly setup, there is no "surfing". Properly setup, all of these services are easily used within media center or XBMC or whatever front end one uses all with 10' interfaces. Don't know why one "deserves" the experience of trying to surf? The content providers are the ones who choose to move their programming to different providers not HTPC users who simply want the content they would otherwise get from a single cable service.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



rantanamo said:


> You're trying to compare your BRP to a fully functioning HTPC, yet it sounds like you've never experienced one. Properly setup, there is no "surfing". Properly setup, all of these services are easily used within media center or XBMC or whatever front end one uses all with 10' interfaces. Don't know why one "deserves" the experience of trying to surf? The content providers are the ones who choose to move their programming to different providers not HTPC users who simply want the content they would otherwise get from a single cable service.


Ok, since clearly youve not read my previous posts, lets suppose for a minute that I _havent_ experienced a HTPC, dont know the first thing about front ends. I dont even doubt the accuracy of your claim that front ends are the ultimate in universal support despite MC7 not supporting blu ray as you might have read from vann, "MC7 is great but it doesn't support blu-ray or services like HULU or ESPN3."


You _still_ have not told me what your HTPC supports that my simple BRP wont. Im not talking future proof, no one will deny a pc is always going to be the king of future proof.


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## rantanamo (May 13, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



TypeA said:


> Ok, since clearly youve not read my previous posts, lets suppose for a minute that I _havent_ experienced a HTPC, dont know the first thing about front ends. I dont even doubt the accuracy of your claim that front ends are the ultimate in universal support despite MC7 not supporting blu ray as you might have read from vann, "MC7 is great but it doesn't support blu-ray or services like HULU or ESPN3."
> 
> 
> You _still_ have not told me what your HTPC supports that my simple BRP wont. Im not talking future proof, no one will deny a pc is always going to be the king of future-proof.


7MC does not officially support blu-ray out of the box because Microsoft is not part of the Blu-Ray group. There are several commercial programs that when installed integrate into the 7MC interface and have full Blu-Ray player function.

7MC does not officially support Hulu, because Microsoft is not one of their partners. However, there are multiple programs like PlayOn that fully integrate Hulu into the 7MC interface. There's also HuluIntegrator that adds Hulu Desktop to the 7MC Interface. 7MC is a front end. It has a launcher that any program can be launched from. There's no need for "Support", but several 3rd Party developers create easier added functionality and try to match the 7MC interface to make it even more integrated.

What does my HTPC support that your BRP doesn't? Services or functionality? For Functionality, I have 8 tuners(InfiniTV4 + 2x AverTVHD Duets). 8 TB of storage capacity. I can change this at will. Not to mention the Media Center Extender functionality. For services, I have a program called TunerFreeMCE, that with simple registry hack gets me the major british networks in an easy to use interface. I use another program called secondrun.tv that combines every streaming programming service available that one wishes to link. ABC, HBO Go, Showtime Online, Majorleague tv, ESPN Networks streaming(not ESPN 3, but the service that only a few cable providers allow that is the actual streaming of the networks), etc, etc, etc. Any and every streaming service or site there is can be added, and its actually easy to add services. There's also 7MC Internet TV, while not the most extensive online service, it does provide many internet only shows, integrated Zune services(you definitely don't have that) and some network programming in perhaps the best looking interface out there. If you've ever heard of Boxee, which is actually a great device, and is probably the closest thing to a streaming HTPC, I also have Boxee integrated using the Boxee integrator program. Its sort of another HTPC front end, but groups some services together. 

To answer the question, there are a ton of services your BRP cannot get. Its not to put the BRPer down. I used to be on the STB bandwagon as well. I still have my Western Digital HD Plus and love it. It can do a few of the services as well, but nothing like the infinite choices of the HTPC.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

Wow, so we went from a simple BRP with all main-stream services and physical media support (out-of-the-box btw) to a component requiring a half dozen program installs (one with a "simple" registry hack) to beat my BRP in spades with services like major british networks and internet tv, I have to admit I dont envy that kind of programming. And I certainly wasnt talking functionality, beyond physical media support...

ABC, HBO Go, Showtime Online and Zune, Ill give ya, but most all the rest seems like a ton of obscure services few people have heard of (or probably care to) and yet even fewer people who have the patience, or knowledge, or time to make happen in their own htpc (myself included). Youre right, theres no comparison, thanks for verifying my very first post on the matter:



TypeA said:


> Im sure a little bit of research would reveal a cheap player with the specific features you want, and for a fraction of what you spent on your htpc. Even then, no matter how hard you try, a htpc is still a complicated computer and it will likely never be as stable or user friendly as a blu ray player. It also creates more noise (short of research and spending the money on super quiet cooling), is a much larger component than a blu ray player (unless you stick with macro), and creates more heat and draws more juice than any blu ray player would. As far as Im concerned the only thing a much more expensive and complicated htpc has over a basic cheap blu ray player is the ability to archive lots of media into one interface, which takes lots of time, research, and storage space to be done correctly. Before full-featured blu ray players I would have agreed but not so much in todays world.


HTPC, not for the faint of heart and I do stand corrected, you can add lots of programming no one has heard of if youre willing to spend many many hours and more money than $100 for the features my lowly BRP has.


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## rantanamo (May 13, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



TypeA said:


> Wow, so we went from a simple BRP with all main-stream services and physical media support (out-of-the-box btw) to a component requiring a half dozen program installs (one with a "simple" registry hack) to beat my BRP in spades with services like major british networks and internet tv, I have to admit I dont evny that kind of programming.
> 
> ABC, HBO Go, Showtime Online and Zune, Ill give ya, but most all the rest seems like a ton of obscure services few people have heard of (or probably care to) and yet even fewer people who have the patience, or knowledge, or time to make happen in their own htpc (myself included). Youre right, theres no comparison, thanks for verifying my very first post on the matter:


A.) There is no "main-stream" device with all "main-stream" services because what you might consider main-stream is never all of what is "main-stream". I guess you mean Netflix/Pandora/Youtube/Hulu. Believe it or not, those come nowhere near a complete online experience. They just represent the bigger dollar companies that were able to consolidate some services. It would interesting to see someone attempt to get all "mainstream" streaming services through devices and how much it would cost. 

B.) You're on an HTPC thread. Of course you ad things onto it. That's the whole point. Not arguing out the box. Arguing the ease of use and ability to continuously add as much programming is available. 

C.) The major British Networks have tons of programming that is relevant and popular worldwide. BBC and Sky's streaming services are major services that enjoy a much more complete streaming experience than anything in the US. Nothing obscure about Luther or Dr. Who or Formula 1(world's most watched sport). The channels I listed were just a few. Should I have listed them all? CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, Showtime Online, HBO Go, The CW, History Channel, Smithsonian, NASA TV, Comedy Central, Cartoon Network, ESPN 3, ESPN Networks, SyFy, Discovery Channel, on and on and on and on. Not feeding that trollish comment.

D.) The HTPC sounds like its not for you. But it does more than your BRP whether you like it or not and its not even close. If you want to argue simplicity, than lack of ability is the price you pay. Its all relative. While you may think your BRP is so simple, I'm sure there's a large segment out there that thinks it is complicated.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

I always considered mainstream to be the most common, largest, easiest to use, and the most value.


> Should I have listed them all? CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, Showtime Online, HBO Go, The CW, History Channel, Smithsonian, NASA TV, Comedy Central, Cartoon Network, ESPN 3, ESPN Networks, SyFy, Discovery Channel, on and on and on and on.


So, youll have to forgive me, the cable channels youre listing are available for free using a htpc instead of my paid cable services and my dvr? Ive always known that specific network channels were available, some with only specific programs on demand and none with live streaming that Im aware of, but maybe Im just not understanding where all these cable channels are, online....


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## Theresa (Aug 23, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

I believe this thread could be called a [edited] contest.


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## rantanamo (May 13, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



TypeA said:


> I always considered mainstream to be the most common, largest, easiest to use, and the most value.
> 
> 
> So, youll have to forgive me, the cable channels youre listing are available for free using a htpc instead of my paid cable services and my dvr? Ive always known that specific network channels were available, some with only specific programs on demand and none with live streaming that Im aware of, but maybe Im just not understanding where all these cable channels are, online....


They may be the most available, but that doesn't mean they have the most programming available or even in the best quality.

You are able to get the free services free and the paid services for pay. No different than Netflix or say MLB.tv. Most are on demand, some are streaming live tv. Some are similar to the podcast and will stream live events. So yes, you could theoretically "cut the cord".

The channels online are simply websites. No different from Hulu or Netflix or Amazon Streaming or Youtube. I mention secondrun.tv because its a simple program(you simply do a normal program install) and it become part of the media center. It has a channel loader, where you simply input the web address, and a username and password if the site is subscription like Youtube or HBOGo and the program finds the available shows and organizes them just like Hulu and can even sort them in guide form so you can watch them as if they are actual programming. As easy as copying and pasting. Very useful tool that probably represents the future of television more than say Hulu alone.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



Theresa said:


> I believe this thread could be called a [edited] contest.


Not at all, Im learning alot and I greatly appreciate it. Ive not been into HTPCs for some time, the internet is a different place now


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



rantanamo said:


> They may be the most available, but that doesn't mean they have the most programming available or even in the best quality.


Actually thats usually _exactly_ what it means. Netflix is a perfect example, back when they were a small streaming service their quality was awful and their quantity was dismal, now that they are a mega giant there are few other sites that offer what netflix does, hence their mainstream status. Their quality had improved by leaps and bounds and their variety compares to no other site I know of (save streaming rentals). 



> You are able to get the free services free and the paid services for pay. No different than Netflix or say MLB.tv. Most are on demand, some are streaming live tv. Some are similar to the podcast and will stream live events. So yes, you could theoretically "cut the cord".
> 
> The channels online are simply websites. No different from Hulu or Netflix or Amazon Streaming or Youtube. I mention secondrun.tv because its a simple program(you simply do a normal program install) and it become part of the media center. It has a channel loader, where you simply input the web address, and a username and password if the site is subscription like Youtube or HBOGo and the program finds the available shows and organizes them just like Hulu and can even sort them in guide form so you can watch them as if they are actual programming. As easy as copying and pasting. Very useful tool that probably represents the future of television more than say Hulu alone.


So your impressive list of channels that goes "on and on" is really a list of channels that have _websites_. My basic research into what you listed has some sites that have full episodes of only select shows, some sites that have only short clips of shows, and still others that have no media at all, streaming or otherwise. Its cool that theres programs that will enter all these websites in for you but I really have to question the value of all this media youre claiming one misses with a BRP and gains with a HTPC. Im glad you dig all the foreign programming and have found all these vast resources of pure media that you like and that dwarfs the media abilities of a simple BRP. Ill need to dig deeper on just how valuable and worthy this missing media is to me. Last time I was a HTPC enthusiast msnbcvideo was, far as I knew, one of the only sources of actual useful video on the net (one can only watch so many trailers and clips), and it was news shows and such. Much has changed and apparently theres lots of true video and music beyond what Ive been living on; netflix, pandora, big sites with lots of full tv programs and movies and vast amounts of variety all in one place. Thanks for the leads.


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## rantanamo (May 13, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



TypeA said:


> Actually thats usually _exactly_ what it means. Netflix is a perfect example, back when they were a small streaming service their quality was awful and their quantity was dismal, now that they are a mega giant there are few other sites that offer what netflix does, hence their mainstream status. Their quality had improved by leaps and bounds and their variety compares to no other site I know of (save streaming rentals).
> 
> 
> 
> So your impressive list of channels that goes "on and on" is really a list of channels that have _websites_. My basic research into what you listed has some sites that have full episodes of only select shows, some sites that have only short clips of shows, and still others that have no media at all, streaming or otherwise. Its cool that theres programs that will enter all these websites in for you but I really have to question the value of all this media youre claiming one misses with a BRP and gains with a HTPC. Im glad you dig all the foreign programming and have found all these vast resources of pure media that you like and that dwarfs the media abilities of a simple BRP. Ill need to dig deeper on just how valuable and worthy this missing media is to me. Last time I was a HTPC enthusiast msnbcvideo was, far as I knew, one of the only sources of actual useful video on the net (one can only watch so many trailers and clips), and it was news shows and such. Much has changed and apparently theres lots of true video and music beyond what Ive been living on; netflix, pandora, big sites with lots of full tv programs and movies and vast amounts of variety all in one place. Thanks for the leads.


Netflix was never terrible, and their streaming selection hasn't changed much. Their streaming quality still isn't that great. Hulu Plus certainly rivals them in quantity and trumps the quality. Vudu and Amazon surpass their quality and streaming movie selection. Most of Netflix's streaming takes place on the Wii(SD device) and most of their rentals are not streaming yet. Mainstream by name.

I think you don't understand 'websites'. All of these services that you mention as services on your BRP are 'websites'. Even the cable/telecos that use ISP based on demand like FiOS, are website based. Have you ever been to Hulu.com or Pandora or Amazon streaming or Netflix streaming? These are simply websites with videos on them. Some with paywalls, some free. No different than ABC.com or Comedy Central or HBO Go. Basically they've built you a 10' interface with a bunch of weblinks for that specific website. You're just looking at the website with a fancy page. Hulu Desktop, Boxee and HBOGo are examples of websites that do this themselves and work with the media center remote. Programs like Playon or Secondrun.TV or TunerFreeMCE, take it a step further and creates a front end for all of these sites that you wish, so instead of going to a specific website for certain shows(which is what your BRP is doing), it puts all the links together in one interface, where you can sort them by genre, title, or network, etc, etc.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

To the interface point, as a user who has only 2 sources in his rack, an HTPC and a Wii, HTPC interfaces are universally horrible. You basically have 2 scenarios. The first is a graphic front-end or 10 foot interface. Once setup, these many of these are great looking and easy to use...once set up. I've been cable-free since 2000, and in that time, I've tried Win Media Center, XBMC, Boxee, and a dozen others that have faded into the horizon. A lot has changed in 10+ years, but, in the end, I found I spent more time getting everything setup than actually watching/listening to content. So, I chose option 2...

...a plain old Windows Desktop with a wireless keyboard and mouse. Yes, it may not wow the neighbors, but we invite folks over to watch movies, not user interfaces. Not to mention that my family uses computers, day in and day out. We're not deterred by a little point and click. The most familiar interface to us is the Desktop, so why would we want to move away from what is most familiar?

Now, I am not without a sense of aesthetics. I'm impressed bu a slick interface like everyone else. When that high-res XBMC menu loads up, it looks good. When Hulu Desktop does it's smooth scrolling through animated menus, I say to myself, why do I keep using that ugly website? But once again, I value the content over everything else, and when I want to watch a live stream of Coachella, I don't want to spend one second more than I have to finding my stream, setting it up, and starting the music.

If you have an interface that you like, awesome. If you don't, just try the desktop and remember why you turned on your TV in the first place: the content.


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## rantanamo (May 13, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

you think windows 7 media center is a horrible interface? 

I don't know what the setup fear seems to be about HTPCs. I've found 7MC to be very easy to setup and the metro UI is the best thing out there. If you just want to use it as a DVR, LiveTV, Netflix(same interface found on other devices) or Internet TV, it is very simple and basic setup. You really don't have to touch the thing. Even SecondrunTV and TMT are super simple and integrate excellently into media center. My Movies 4 integrates even easier and I've found has minimum setup. Its not for everyone, but it doesn't require huge complicated effort like some of the programs you find on Hack7MC or missingremote. That is where the complication comes from because there are some fantastic things on can do if they are willing to work with it. But for just TV, DVR, streaming services, Movie databasing, Blu-Ray, or even finding scores, 7MC is very simple.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

And that brings me to my second point: the content.

The internet is a true media democracy, and hopefully it will stay that way. Truly, never have so many had so much to say about so little. Doubt this? Spend some time browsing user submitted videos on YouTube.

But, for every idiot with a webcam, there are real gems out there. Revision 3, PBS, ESPN3, Independent Internet Radio/Video and well-done "podcasts" of every stripe. While I've brought these up in previous post, maybe I was too subtle, so let me be frank. The "majors" like netflix and hulu are great. GREAT! That's where I get the majority of my content, and would never have been a cable cutter without Netflix DVDs, and never will again be a cable subscriber thanks to Netflix streaming (and similar services).

However, one of the things I liked most about Netflix was that they didn't behave like a "major". In the early 2000s, thanks to netflix, I was able to watch movies that I would have never been able to find at Blockbuster or on cable TV. Great movies like Lola Rennt, Equilibrium, and Nikita. I'm sure those of you with truly esoteric tastes as snickering at my mainstream choices, but without Netflix, I would have been in a blockbuster staring at 50 copies of Bad Boys 2.

This is one of the things that troubles me most about modern Netflix...they seem to be reducing the breadth of their DVD selection without increasing the breadth of their Streaming selection. And, without a doubt, the public opinion is in favor of this. Everyone wants Toy Story 3. Many less people are interested in the discs falling off my queue: Almost Myself, Old Crow Medicine Show, and TILT: The Battle to Save Pinball. But it's for movies/concerts like these that I joined netflix, and that I now find myself increasingly on more obscure, but increasingly compelling streaming site on the internet.

There is so much amazing content out there once you stop letting your experience be curated by the tastes of cable execs or the limitations of your equipment's partner services.

My personal pick of the day is NPR's coverage of the Newport Folk Festival: http://www.npr.org/series/newport-folk-festival/

The Elvis Costello, Pete Seeger, Gillian Welch, and The Decemberists, among others. There are two ways to see this performance. First, a plane ticket to Rhode Island and a $125 concert ticket (no longer an option as the show is sold out). Second, the LIVE STREAM on NPRs website, for free, and not accessible through any cable provider or a blu-ray player/Roku/etc (AFAIK). This is the future of media, unconstrained.

Now, in a couple years, maybe we will be able to access any internet stream through a small $100 box in the same way that 5 years ago, we couldn't get hulu/netflix/pandora streaming through that same box. Until then, if you aren't taking advantage of internet media because it's not built into your existing box, you are missing out.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



rantanamo said:


> you think windows 7 media center is a horrible interface?


I think the post I wrote above will clear this up a bit. I think WMC7 is a great interface, but limits the available content from unpopular sources because it's difficult or impossible to integrate. What's the point of setting up an interface if you are closing it down everytime something like the Newport Folk Festival stream comes up, and spending more time integrating your various sources than enjoying your content?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a 10-foot-interface that has everything I watch and listen to, but it's not there yet for me. Other folks that are more limited in where they get their content should love it.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



eugovector said:


> Until then, if you aren't taking advantage of internet media because it's not built into your existing box, you are missing out


And I guess thats the bottom line and my true lack of understanding for you and rantanamo.

A) This vast content Im missing is what few demand.

B) A HTPC is a good lesson in the rule of diminishing returns.

These views are based on a world with a full featured BRP like my cheap and simple player, obviously that was not so much the case when DVD was king.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



TypeA said:


> A) This vast content Im missing is what few demand.


And if you weren't missing it, maybe you would demand it. When Netflix streaming first came out, there were a lot of people with a "who cares" attitude. Of course, that was before Blockbuster went broke, and cable bills went up for the umpteenth time. Now Netflix has 25 million subscribers, and people with 3-year old blu-ray players are trading up for a new one with netflix built in.

I wonder what will be the must-have service in the next 3 years? Whatever it is, odds are I'll be watching/listening on my HTPC.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm never going to convince me that limiting myself to Netflix and Hulu is good enough when there is so much quality content out there. I know this because I'm not missing "it". I am, however, missing a great performance by Gogol Bordello, so I'm going to watch that now.


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## rantanamo (May 13, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



eugovector said:


> I think the post I wrote above will clear this up a bit. I think WMC7 is a great interface, but limits the available content from unpopular sources because it's difficult or impossible to integrate. What's the point of setting up an interface if you are closing it down everytime something like the Newport Folk Festival stream comes up, and spending more time integrating your various sources than enjoying your content?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'd love a 10-foot-interface that has everything I watch and listen to, but it's not there yet for me. Other folks that are more limited in where they get their content should love it.


What is difficult to integrate? Have you used any of the programs I mention? They do not shutdown 7MC. You can still play your content and use the back button to surf your music or recorded TV library. There is no spending significant time adding odd content. Programs like Playto, secondrun.tv, tunerfree mce and media browser have simple link adds, then the content is a part of your interface. Don't see how it could be more simple. What content are you accessing via the internet that doesn't have a web address?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

The newport folk festival link I posted earlier: http://www.npr.org/series/newport-folk-festival/

If I want to navigate through the list of archived audio, and play the embedded video, are you telling me one of these programs you've listed can provide all the in the WMC7 interface without have to just open a browser window? If so, let me know which one and I will install it tonight.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

Stories like this, foretelling the demise of Cable/Sat DVRs and linear TV in general, seem to be popping up more and more: http://hd.engadget.com/2011/07/30/over-the-top-video-already-more-popular-than-dvrs/


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*



eugovector said:


> Stories like this, foretelling the demise of Cable/Sat DVRs and linear TV in general, seem to be popping up more and more: http://hd.engadget.com/2011/07/30/over-the-top-video-already-more-popular-than-dvrs/


Yeah, so do these stories of bandwidth caps 

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/netflix_slams_isp_bandwidth_caps_wall_street_journal


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

Yes, but as your article clearly points out, bandwidth is a false commodity. Sending data down the pipes require very little cost over just letting them sit empty while the data centers hum along. ISPs, especially the cable companies, would like us to believe that putting data in your computer is like putting gas in your car, but it's not. A better analogy would be flying a kite. The wind is blowing anyway, and it doesn't cost any more to throw your kite up.

Now that doesn't mean that bandwidth caps won't happen. To quote Mencken: Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. And the lobbyists are spreading as much misinformation as possible to water down the already thin knowledge base of our politicians charge with monitoring internet commerce and governing net-neutrality.

Truth is, video streaming doesn't require a fast pipe, just an open one. Modern buffering can overcome any bandwidth limitations, and vudu has built a model providing high-quality video using just this technique. At the end of that day, it is more important that companies throttle peak use to preserve a number of subscribers that one data center can serve then the shut the pipes off all together when the imaginary data well runs dry. You can have all the bandwidth caps in the world, but that won't save you when every one of your subscribers logs on at the same time to watch the Masters streaming live in 3D (which actually was broadcast this past April).

In other words, bandwidth caps will only materialize as long as we and our politicians remain ignorant of how the internet actually works...which, to be honest, is likely to happen.

So, here's what I recommend. Go to your city council and lobby them to create a municipal internet while it's still legal: http://marshallguthrie.tumblr.com/p...-nc-politicians-destroy-citizen-lead-internet

There is no reason that Internet, like water and electricity, shouldn't be governed by the users. I moved to a community with a municipal internet service called MInet, and after dealing with TWC, Cox, Comcast, Qwest, and Earthlink, I couldn't be happier. Not only do I get 7/2 naked for $35/month (flat, no taxes), I could upgrade to as much as 25/7 for $95 or 50/20 for $140 if I wanted to go with a business plan. And, because I sit on the city budget council, if I have a problem with my service, I can change that. Good luck getting Comcast to transfer you to someone in the same country when you have a problem, much less the same state. I see my internet technician at the grocery store. He lives about 1 mile from my house, and I taught his younger brother at the university where I work.

Seriously, go to your city council and tell them you want municipal internet. It's the only way you can keep greedy corporations from exploiting the power of their profits to your detriment.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

Guess I just cant remember the last time my cable tv quality was affected by the time of day, folks seem to take that internet pipe width for granted these days. While caps, for the exact reasons you pointed out, are not the answer I do think an answer better than buffers needs to be found. Simply put, buffers are great for a more consistent experience but not so much at giving a better quality experience. This leaves customers being throttled and a corresponding loss in quality, a step back and not a step forward, to be sure. 

A good example of this is slingbox, one of the best buffer designs currently available. I know that between 4 and 6 pm my slingbox stream is a consistent 200k and a good buffer doesnt mean jack to making the colorless and lifeless pq and sound more watchable. Granted its 3G service but I think it goes to show the general concept of how buffers can only go so far and junk-in-junk-out still applies here, unless you dont mind 15 minutes to buffer before your requested program begins...

Still, I hope buffering and throttling is all its cracked up to be without creating the same demise as MP3 did for music, that would be awesome.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

Maybe it's because I'm on a big pipe, but I've never had a problem with network congestion that I didn't cause by having 3-4 devices hitting the pipes all at once. For that matter, I don't remember this happening on any service that I've had.

Granted, Netflix HD is more like HD-lite, but their top stream is 3800kbps or 3.7mbps. Even if they add surround sound, they'll still be under the 5mbps that seems to be the lowest level of internet service (unless you are a poor soul stuck on dsl or sat). And if you do drop, most people won't notice as Netflix's buffering will have used your excess bandwidth to stockpile data, and as a worst case scenario, their adaptive bitrate and kicks in and simply bumps you down to a 2600kbps stream until your bandwidth improves. Unless you are watching pixels instead of your movie, you won't notice.

How about it? Has anyone with a 5+ mb pipe seen speeds under 3.7 at peak hours? Has anyone seen non-self-inflicted buffering delays?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

Here's my speed at work using the same service that brings internet to my home, though granted, at a much lower tier.

http://www.speedtest.net/result/1412500318.png

How many years ago would these speeds have been unheard of outside major research institutions and government facilities? Now, they exist in Monmouth, OR?

With companies like Google driving the Gigabit movement, and fiber coming to small rural towns like Monmouth, how long before we are laughing about the days of "Cable" internet in the same way we laugh about dial-up now? I've been off dialup for 15 years, I bet it takes less than 5 before everyone is on 5mb or better, and another 10 to make gigabit a viable option for over half our country.

Feel free to archive this post and check my math in 5 years.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

Its very refreshing to see such optimism, I certainly hope youre right on the nail and services continue to outstrip demands. I assumed it would require great outlays of cash for infrastructure to keep up with the increasing demands. Luckily my verizon unlimited evdo is grandfathered as I personally went over 10gig last month alone (sling netflix and pandora), my contract has another year to go so Im safe for now. We'll see if I start getting my evdo speeds (as it were) throttled after verizon's recent tied data package went into effect and users like me continue to use their biggest package for free :wave:


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: The ULTIMATE HTPC: The OneSource*

I think that flying cars were the last piece of tech prognostication that failed. Everything since, including the famously misquoted "640k should be enough", has been under estimation, not over estimation.

Think about 5 short years ago, before the iphone launch. Could anyone have conceived the way that market would change? Think about 15 years ago when Netflix first opened its door. Wee were all amazed that you could get DVDs delivered to your homes (and promptly bought a new DVD play to set beside our VHS players). Do you think anyone could have imagined the day when Netflix Instant Streaming would be a must have feature in a 1920x1080 blu-ray source player fed to our 65" flatscreen plasmas? Well, yes, someone did, but not you or me. Some rich guy...on a beach.

As for data caps: When Comcast implemented its cap a few years back, it was 250gb. That number became the standard as, this past spring, AT&T joined them with a 250gb cap. At that time, they are quoted as saying only 2% of their user base shoulod bump against the cap. Comcast places their numbers at 1%: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...dth-20110314_1_u-verse-caps-service-providers

Now, data usage is sure to go up, but as it does and the percentage of people hitting that cap grows, they'll be looking to jump ship (assuming there is competition in the area, which is a whole 'nother problem).

Most companies, even the "evil" ones, don't have any caps. If you find yourself going over your data limits, and you have an alternative available, I'd bet you get better speeds with less headache.

Now, if you need evdo for travel, work portability, I can understand.


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