# PSB 5.1 System Help.



## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Hi gang, when I thought it was a done deal I knew the speakers I was going to get, PSB starts having a sale:hissyfit:. I was thinking of picking these up for a 5.1 setup 

Fronts: T45 $529/pr
Center: C40 $269/pr
Rears: B15 $259
or
Fronts: T55 $629/pr
Center: C60 $279
Rears: B15 $259

SUB PB10-NSD

I was going to get a complete 5.1 set from SVS but now I'm not sure since these went on sale. also for the rears instead of using the B15's could I use the Alpha LR1's instead. So guys let me know what you think? Thank you


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Having a look at the PSB speakers they do not look too bad and pricing seems very good indeed, I am not that familiar with that brand but what SVS speakers were you going to go for, before you saw these on sale?


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Hi John, I was planing on getting the SBS-01 package which Jack over at SVS recommend. I was going to pull the trigger on these once my tax refund gets here in about a week, then I came across these prices from Saturday Audio Exchange which is here in Chicago and I thought maybe I should hold off go and check these out.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

The SVS package is very good indeed and I prefer sat/sub combinations as they are far more easier to integrate in the HC room, and with floor standers depending on the room may need a little more work to get them sounding as good, for music through direct mode they would probably sound better but that is just a guess as I do not know the brand, I have heard the SVS package and it certainly impressed me especially with movies.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

See this is where the trouble begins both SVS and PSB speakers get good reviews and both have a big following from what I can tell. Before looking at the PSB speakers I was also looking at some Monitor Audio Radius series and though I should give them a listen along side the PSBs. The reason I'm thinking towers because if I buy bookshelf speakers I will need stands anyway, so I thought why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I understand your predicament and with floor standers it does do away with the need for stands, but good ones can be obtained fairly cheaply, I tried many floor standers in my room and was not happy with the sound as I could not control the bass NO matter what I tried but things are different now and with so many EQ systems available it makes the task slightly easier with Audyssey being my favourite, hopefully someone who has heard both can chime in 

BTW - The Monitor Audio Radius range are nice but you can get more bang for your bucks with the SVS package, which are better at movies than the Radius range that I heard albeit not in the same room, but I have heard so many systems and I prefer the SVS package, if you were going to look at the new Silver RX range then that is a different story altogether...as they are far superior speakers IMO.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I am quite fond of PSB's as well. You might want to look at DMC-Electronics.com as they sell Cosmetic B-Stocks for even less than the Saturday Audio prices. 

I agree with going with Towers and often recommend PSB Image Series. It is just they are still more expensive than SVS's S Series on the whole. If you can go with the Image's, you will not be disappointed. The reviews and bench tests have been excellent.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Hello Jack, I have looked at DMC and the prices on the B-stock is cheaper but if I can manage to help a local dealer than that's a bonus, I have 2 questions.

1) These speakers are 6Ω with the exception of the C60 which is 8Ω will the Pioneer 21 have an issue driving these.

2) I leaning towards the T45's would it be wise to use the C60 instead of the C40.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The Image Series were designed with AVR's driving them in mind. Given you have a quality AVR, you should have no problem driving the Image's. They are fairly efficient too.

I would definitely get the C60. When it comes to CC's, the bigger the better. And with the C60 using larger woofers and cabinet, I would absolutely go with it. Yes, it would be ideal to use the T-55 with the C60 as they share the same woofer, but this is not nearly as essential as sharing the same tweeter which the T-45 and C-60 do.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks JJ, I will have to stop by there this weekend and give them a listen.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Okay I have a question would 2 subsonic 5i's outperform 1 subsonic 6i?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I do not have a great deal of experience with PSB's Subwoofers. I have almost always built friends systems who have PSB Image with SVS or Hsu Research Subwoofers instead of matching the Subwoofer
to the other Speakers.

The ID (Internet Direct) companies really are tough to beat with sub 1k Subwoofers. About impossible to beat honestly.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Hello Jack, I came across a paper that Tom Nousaine wrote and it sparked my interested hence the question since both subs I mentioned are listed, but my knowledge on this subject is limited.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Just from a cursory glance at Tom's findings, the Hsu Research VTF-2 puts out 3 db's more than the closest PSB Subwoofer (Subsonic 3i) 107db's compared to 104db's.

I really would go with a VTF-2 combined with the Image Series. You would have a great sounding system with Main Speakers capable enough to listen to 2 Channel sources without the subwoofer. 

This is nice if you configure your AVR to use the multichannel inputs which bypasses all Bass Management and everything else to have Main's capable of standing on their own without needing a Subwoofer. The same cannot be said for many Bookshelf sized Speakers though some are surprisingly capable.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

See that is where it gets a little confusing the Subsonic 6i has 2 spots on the list one at 109db and 108db in the 25Hz-62Hz range, where the 5i is 98db in the 25Hz-62Hz range hence my question is 2 5i's better than 1 6i. I looked at the VTF-2 numbers but if you look further up you find the 6i, I have always found reviews where HSU and SVS are praised but have found little on PSB subs.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Mea Culpa. As I said, I made a cursory glance at Tom's results. Now, I see what you are talking about in regards to the 6i.

Again, I really do not have very much experience with PSB's Subwoofers, but looking at the numbers, it certainly looks like the 6i brings it. I suppose now it comes down to how much does the 6i cost to procure?

I am a huge fan of Paul Barton and his Company. It would seem I should have been paying more attention to his Subwoofer Designs. If you can find a 6i for anywhere near the price of the Hsu of SVS, it certainly looks to be an excellent alternative. 

And looking at DMC-Electronics, they sell it for 499 Dollars. If Saturday Audio sells it for near the same price, it looks like you can have a completely matching system. 

Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I called up Saturday Audio and they gave me a quote and if I buy the complete 5.1 system they will sell me the 5i for $399 B-stock or the 6i for $549 B-stock. I asked if it would be better to buy 2 5is or 1 6i he was honest he said for the size of my room 2 5i's would be overkill, I have to give him some credit he was honest he could have sold 2 subs but said 2 subs would cause my brain to rattle.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Ares, it looks like you have yourself a killer Speaker System. After looking at the 6i's performance, I really think you are going to be beyond happy with this setup. I would definitely crossover all Speakers to 80 Hz and have the 6i handle the bass. I do the same with my setup could not be more pleased.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks again JJ for your help and I will post pics soon of the new setup hopefully at the end of this month,Still have to wait on the tax man.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I really look forward to it. Remind me again, what AVR are you going to be using?
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I plan on using the Pioneer Elite VSx-21TXH, the sales guy over at Saturday Audio said they have a Marantz 6003 on sale for $699 if I was I interested.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Now I remember. And also that you were not interested in B-Stock Onkyo's and wanted to purchase everything locally. 

The VSX-21TXH should be an able dancing partner to your Speakers. Especially if the amplifiers are relieved of the stress of handling full range reproduction thanks to the 6i. I would definitely go with the VSX-21 over the Marantz SR-6003.

All of that being said, I would still look at something like Onkyo's TX-NR1007 locally. Or ideally the 3007.
While MCACC does a very good job, Audyssey MultEQ XT is truly a cut above.
Cheers,
JJ


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Ares said:


> I plan on using the Pioneer Elite VSx-21TXH, the sales guy over at Saturday Audio said they have a Marantz 6003 on sale for $699 if I was I interested.


Upgraditis is a terrible bug to have Tony :bigsmile:

I look forward to your thoughts on your new system and some pics would be good too :T


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I have found an 807 for $1000 ,1007 for $1500, and the 3007 for $2000 from Best Buy these would put me over budget. I have looked at others like Denon since they Audyssey MultEQ but they don't have pre-outs, the Pioneer has pre-outs but no Audyssey, the Onkyo has both but some of their models are out of my price range. What is a guy to do?


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

recruit said:


> Upgraditis is a terrible bug to have Tony :bigsmile:
> 
> I look forward to your thoughts on your new system and some pics would be good too :T


Tell me about John, it's like an itch that won't go away and it will make you :spend:


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
If it was me, I would order the TX-NR1007 from Accessories4less for 999. They also have the 3007 for 200 Dollars more. I realize you have an aversion to B-Stock units, but the Onkyo's do come with a Manufacturers Warranty and are always in Brand New condition.

For the price of what locally you can get the 807, you can get the 1007. Having 9.2, MultEQ XT, Internet Radio and a strong amplifier section for 500 Dollars off retail and no Sales Tax.

I understand and respect your desire to keep it local, but the deals on B-Stock Onkyo's are amazing.
And I literally know dozens of people who have purchased B-Stock Onkyo's with no issues whatsoever.
Cheers,
JJ


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

The new xxx7 range from Onkyo are a very tempting option and have nearly everything you could ever want from a HT AVR, great VFM and excellent perfornance for the price you pay.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Hey gang, been away for awhile and thought I would check in. Well the tax refund has just arrived and I will be heading to S.A. this Sunday.:bigsmile: There is one thing that has me a little worried, I downloaded the manual for the Pioneer Elite 21 and it says.



> Amplifier section
> Continuous average power output of 110 watts* per
> channel, min., at 8 ohms, from 20 Hz to 20 000 Hz
> with no more than 0.09 %** total harmonic
> ...


does this mean it will have a hard time driving the PSB speakers? or am I worrying for nothing?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
If you are worried about the PSB's 6 ohm impedance, them the answer is no. And moreover, do not set the impedance to 6 ohms or below as this involves limiting the output power of the AVR.

PSB Image Series are fairly efficient and easy to drive. They were designed with AVR's to be the primary source of amplification.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks JJ, I tend to over think things when I 'm about to drop a good deal of :spendn anything. Just like to have all my bases covered, Just to let you know how much planning I do I have about at least 10 different plans just in case anything goes wrong. Just curious why the 21 over the 6003?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I have always advocated an Onkyo, but have assumed you wanted the VSX-21. The SR6003 would certainly get the job done. I like that it has Audyssey MultEQ. I don't like that it weighs about 10 pounds less than the Pioneer and is not THX Certified. Also, the 21 is a newer model.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks again JJ, Well I will be getting everything come this Sunday and hopefully I will be able to post some thoughts and some pics on Monday or Tuesday of next week till then Best Wishes to all.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I look forward to reading your findings. Since you are purchasing locally, you could audition all of the AVR's which interest you. The VSX-21TXH is a much more recent model than the SR6003 with the SR6004 having already been released. Also, the Pioneer has more HDMI inputs (4 versus 3). The Marantz does have dual HDMI Outputs. If you have a Projector and Panel Display in the same room this might matter to you.
Cheers,
JJ


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## htsas11 (Mar 3, 2010)

I have the PSB's and love it. They have good reviews too.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Hi gang, I picked up everything this past Thursday and haven't had the chance to set anything up yet but I did take pictures and before I forget I decided to go with the Denon 1910 to run the Show,budget fell a little short so I decided to compromise on the receiver instead of the speakers. I will post my thoughts on the gear after I get it all up and running. I posted pics in the Image Gallery.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Congratulations. With you using a quality Subwoofer, the AVR-1910 should do just fine driving your PSB's. I would definitely crossover all Speakers at 80 Hz to put the least amount of strain possible on the Denon.

Since you purchased locally, if the Denon does not meet your expectations, you will have the opportunity to easily return or exchange it. I would guess it will do fine unless you have a huge Room.

I am not trying to sound negative towards the AVR-1910. It is just it weighs 23 Pounds so I have some concern about the amplifier section. Again, by having the Sub taking care of bass for all channels, it should relieve stress to the point where it is not an issue.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks JJ for the advice I will give that a try.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Ares, I look forward to reading your findings and really think you are going to love your Speakers.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Hello to all, had a chance to setup everything and run Audyssey, it had to be adjusted it had the sub distance at 12' when it was more like 4' and the bass was on the thin side no worries though pumped that up to +6db and it's great. I did what JJ suggested and set the crossover at 80Hz and let it run for two hours and the receiver ran cool, now I just had to push the envelope I set the crossover at 40Hz for the fronts and center and left the rears at 80Hz this seemed to help balance some of the bass out but it did make the 1910 work harder because it was alot warmer than before. The build quality of PSB is exceptional I did the high tech knuckle test on all the speakers and heard no resonance. I took of the grills and all I can say is SWEET the woofers look like anodized aluminum but are polypropylene and one shiny aluminum dome tweeter, I wished the woofer on the sub matched the rest instead of a matte dark gray. Now the C60 is a monster of a center 27"wide x 8.5"high x 11"deep with 2 6.5" woofers, the Subsonic6i isn't the biggest dog on the block but it has a large bite it's a 12incher coming in at 46lbs with a class H Bash amp 225 watts continuous,325 watts dynamic and 650 watts peak. The 6i has crossover settings from 50Hz-150Hz. So on to the performance I don't listen to Jazz or Classical music not my thing so I popped in Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven I was lost in the moment, the music was crystal clear sounded like I was there. Next was Nirvana's All Apologies Live here again PSB performed well I felt like I was sitting there in the audience,now it's time for the sub to shine I put in Tupac's song Hail Mary from his Greatest Hits CD since it has a hard driving bass line, when that first note of bass dropped it felt like I got punched in the chest. The amazing thing is the sub didn't not struggle, it took the hit and asked for more . Well this was a little long sorry but if I left something out feel free to ask and I will try give you a short answer than what I wrote here.

Thanks to all those who gave me advice and answered my questions (even the dumb ones)
Tony


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Tony, I am so glad you are happy with your setup. I would crossover the C60 at 60 Hz at the absolute highest as their rated Frequency Range on axis is 50 Hz. 

If you like the sound better on the mains at 40 Hz, there is no issue with this. However, with the C60, you could potentially be losing information by crossing over at 40 Hz.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I will give that a try thanks JJ, one thing I need to ask what is the benefit if any to using the left and right low level input on the Sub?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,'
I would just use the LFE Output and have the AVR handle the settings for the Subwoofer.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I does not have an output that says LFE but this is what it has on the back I had it connected to the low level input from preamp to the right input according to the manual just wondering if there is any if i connect to the left one as well?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
You hook up the Low Level From Preamp RCA to your Denon's LFE Subwoofer Output. And keep the toggle switch where it is. (Active)
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

OK thanks JJ, I have another issue the bass seems to be localized I have set the crossover at 40Hz for the fronts and the center at 60Hz and the rears at 80Hz and I can tell where the bass is coming from when the sub kicks in, is there a way to fix this issue?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I would experiment with Subwoofer placement, Audysssy often helps, but location is important. Also, our REW Forum is definitely worth checking out as well to best integrate the Sub.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I have tried the front corners,the back corners, the middle of the wall both front and back and still I can tell where the sub is. I'm at a loss here,I will check out the REW forum thanks JJ.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Also check SPL's with an SPL meter if you can to make sure you are running all the speakers at approx 75db, it may also be a room mode exciting the subs response so worth checking it out with something like REW also.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I have been able to fix the sub issue it was a matter of placing it near the back right corner of the room and having it 3" off the back and side wall now I'm in Audio Nirvana thanks guys for all the help.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Ares said:


> I have been able to fix the sub issue it was a matter of placing it near the back right corner of the room and having it 3" off the back and side wall now I'm in Audio Nirvana thanks guys for all the help.


Excellent news Tony Enjoy :T


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