# SVS PB12-NSD alternatives... maybe the HSU VTF-3.3



## Guest (Apr 18, 2008)

I'd like to hear opinions comparing the current versions of the SVS PB12-NSD to the HSU VTF-3.3. 

As a disclaimer, I'm by no means a subwoofer expert, and it would be a shame if anyone made a buying decision based on anything that I say here.

I've just gotten the PB12-NSD in my house, in a really big room (7000 ft^3)... and it sounds *just okay* so far. 

When I tune the sub via SPL meter, I feel like the sub isn't making enough contribution to either movies or music listening. When I tune the sub louder, to the point that I start to like the way it sounds when listening to loud bass-heavy music (techno and hip-hop), the sub seems to distort a bit when playing back loud movie scenes. 

For example, in the scene in the Fellowship of the Ring when Sauron's finger gets cut off, the sub seemed to huff-and-puff during the really loud parts. It also sounds a little rough during the opening fly-by scenes of the silver ship in Attack of the Clones.

Also, when listening to music I sometimes feel that the sub isn't playing really low notes back the way I've heard them elsewhere.

I've been given the impression that with such a large room, I might not be really impressed by *anything* in the ~$600 range. Is this just a given?

So what to do? Keep the sub, or return it during my 45-day money back guarantee?

I'm considering if it could possibly be worth while to order the VTF-3.3 and keep the one I like best. It'll probably cost me a maximum of $200 to try, as I'll have to pay shipping both ways for the sub I return. 

But is the VTF-3.3 different enough from the PB12-NSD that it could possibly be worth a try?


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Likely the VTF 3.3 would have a similar issue. It is the room volume. Have you considered trying a dual driver sub? Or even more expensive -- two subwoofers.

Yep $600 is not likely to solve this unless you get a great deal on a used sub (best if a dual 12" driver). Or try a DIY project.


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

You could try the AV123 MFW-15($599) or the EPIK Knight($599+shipping). 

There is a bit of a wait for either of these but they both use a larger cabinet and 15" driver. They should be capable of more output than the PB12 NSD. That is a huge room though, so one of these may not be enough either, but in the $600 class it's not going to get much better.

Also you may want to reduce your LFE output a bit on your reciever if it is overloading your SVS.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I don't know that switching to the Hsu sub will make that much of an impact. You might want to take a look at some of Ikka's tests to see if there is something that might lead you to think that you might get enough extra oomph to get the bass you're looking for.

My suspicion is that you'll have to move up the food chain further in the SVS or Hsu line up before you get to the bass levels you're looking for.. unless you build your own.

JCD


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2008)

Thanks very much for the help so far, everyone.

If I were to look over Ilkka's tests, what would I be looking for that might indicate that a particular sub would sound the way I want it to in a big room. Is it just max SPL?


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

For a room of your size I would be looking for a large or multiple driver(s) and lots of power. Possibly 4 PB12's would be needed, IMO, for them to sound right in a room of that size.

Elemental Designs and Epik have some large driver high power designs that won't break the bank, but they are not the most aesthetically pleasing subs around, although I kind of like the look. I would try calling some of the companies mentioned in all the replies here to see what each would recommend for a room of your size.


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Maybe the quick fix would be to buy another PB12-NSD and integrate two subwoofers.


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## cruzmisl (Jul 1, 2007)

I tried the PB12NSD in my Dad's room and it wasn't enough but he has a really tough room. I sent it back and got an Ultra. DEFINITELY worth the extra expense. I tried to get my Dad to get a Submersive but he didn't want to spend the extra money and more importantly he didn't really have the room for it. 

You're square footage is a real killer for any sub and you'll need a killer sub to overcome it.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2008)

Ya know, on the page below Ilkka mentions that the VTF-3 "Suits well for larger rooms not having much low end room gain"

but says that the PB12-NSD "Good extension and good frequency response for mid-sized and small rooms"

It sounds to me like he's making these judgments based on the frequency response of each sub.


http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...-4-5-6th-may-2007-test-summary.html#post45289


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## Guest (May 1, 2008)

My last post wasn't very clear. I intended to ask this question:

Reading Ilkka's comments (VTF-3 good for large rooms, PB12-NSD good for mid-sized rooms)... what about each sub leads him to draw these conclusions?


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

I would think Ilka is the one to be answering that question, why not just send a PM.


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## Guest (May 2, 2008)

actually, I must be forum-dumb... 'cause I couldn't figure out how to send him a PM on this forum. So I posted the question here hoping that he or some other jedi would help out.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

From the Forum Rules... :T

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## Guest (May 2, 2008)

That must have been it. It's funny, I said to myself "wow, it's strange that this forum has PM turned off"


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## Guest (May 5, 2008)

Quick update: I've spent some time with REW and Audyssey tuning my system, and I think things sound *much* better now.

I was running the sub too hot, with some big problems with frequency response due to the room placement. Now that I've got the tuning worked out better I'm *much* happier with the PB12-NSD. Now when the "Nazguls Attack" the wing flapping is much better...

I'm now no longer considering swapping out for another 12" sub. Thanks to all who helped.


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

I too, found the PB12-NSD in need of better placement to be happy with its output and my room is not even half as big as yours.


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## conchyjoe7 (Aug 28, 2007)

Torsion: I must question one part of your information in your original post. You said your "room" was 7000 square feet. With all due respect, I really really doubt that...7000 cubic feet is probably correct. A 7000 square foot room is about 3-4 times the size of an average entire home! Now, while I don't for a second doubt that you live in a large place...I seriously doubt it's Carnegie Hall. I see that placement and measuring have cleared up most if not all of your problems which also leads me to believe that your original number is in error as the sub you have, no matter where it is placed nor how it is measured is going to give you much in 7000 sq. ft.
Just my 2 cents worth on an observation...
In any case; glad you got your problem worked out!
Cheers,
Konky.


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## Guest (May 8, 2008)

Oh know, you're absolutely right, conchyjoe7. The main room is about 7000 *cubic* feet.

What a goober I am... so all these nice people were trying to help me, but I gave them the wrong info! No wonder jakewash recommended 4 PB12-NSDs


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## bsoko2 (May 9, 2007)

Torsion said:


> Oh know, you're absolutely right, conchyjoe7. The main room is about 7000 *cubic* feet.
> 
> What a goober I am... so all these nice people were trying to help me, but I gave them the wrong info! No wonder jakewash recommended 4 PB12-NSDs


I got over 6000 cubic feet and am running two MBM-12's and two 3.3 Turbo's.

Bill


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Its a big step up but the SVS PB13 Ultra would be a far better recommendation. If you can stretch your budget and want to add another sub its the best sub for the money.


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

Torsion said:


> I'm considering if it could possibly be worth while to order the VTF-3.3 and keep the one I like best. It'll probably cost me a maximum of $200 to try, as I'll have to pay shipping both ways for the sub I return.
> 
> But is the VTF-3.3 different enough from the PB12-NSD that it could possibly be worth a try?


What you need is additional headroom for your huge room. The VTF-3.3 and PB-12 NSD are quite similar in performance while you need a jump.

As Tony advised the SVS PB13 Ultra would be a far better recommendation if you want to feel a difference. 
If you have the skills and patience you can chose the DIY route with an 18 incher or more to make a revolution.


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## Alex at SVS (May 13, 2008)

Depending on what kind of playback levels you're looking to get, even 2 or 3 PB13-Ultras might be needed. That really is a gigantic room.


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

Alex at SVS said:


> Depending on what kind of playback levels you're looking to get, even 2 or 3 PB13-Ultras might be needed. That really is a gigantic room.


Welcome to the Shack Alex!

are you new at SVS?


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## Alex at SVS (May 13, 2008)

mike c said:


> Welcome to the Shack Alex!
> 
> are you new at SVS?


Thanks! And yes, just started officially a few days ago. But have owned SVS for 4 years and audio enthusiast since long before that.


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

Welcome Alex!


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Hi Alex, must be nice to be at SVS, my favorite speaker manufacturer! Have fun, Dennis


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## Alex at SVS (May 13, 2008)

drdoan said:


> Hi Alex, must be nice to be at SVS, my favorite speaker manufacturer! Have fun, Dennis


Yep, never would've guessed it when I found them a few years ago and hearing their amazing subs, that I'd be working there now. Awesome guys to work with and it's nice to honestly love to products I'm working with.


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

Alex,

You're lucky! :yes:


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## billy p (Dec 19, 2007)

Hi guys I have a vested intrest in the pb12 and so I'll use this thread. I'm about to purchase a new sub and I have exhausted all my alternatives and have decided to go with the pb10 or pb12. Unfortunately the other mfg's don't make in easy for us to consider them because of all the fees involved with shipping and delivery charges. Svs is our only real choice and uses a Canadian retailer which helps out with all those littel extras that add up. 
:help:So here is my question, my living room is 21'x15'x9' for a total of 2800 cf. Can I consider the pb10 if I don't listen at ear bleeding db's, and not a hugh bass head. My budget is about $600-700 Cdn and the pb12 will push me over (retails for 699), so would it be really worth buying the pb10 and if its not enough I could add another one later or should I just suck it up and just buy the big brother.:surrender:
PS: here is a pic of my room, the display in basically in the middle and to the right past the flower arrangement opens up into the family room. 
Thanks, Bill
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k146/parsal106/005.jpg


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## Alex at SVS (May 13, 2008)

Billy,

Honestly, for your room a PB12-NSD would be the best way to go if want moderate bass levels in your room. If you wanted to push louder volumes, I'd even suggest a Plus in a room a large as yours, but as you said you don't want "ear bleeding dBs" so a PB12-NSD should do the job just fine and sound amazing. Now that's not to say you HAVE to get that right now by any means. Certainly a lot of people buy a smaller sub at one time, then wait a while and grab another further down the road when finances permit, but doing the math that will cost more in the long run and you won't have a ton of bass while waiting (granted dual pb10s gives you more placement options and more overall SPL than a single PB12-NSD as well). So each option has its own advantages and disadvantages.


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

hey Billy, 2800 cubic feet?

PB12NSD MINIMUM  i've had more subs in my 2600 room and they still fell short for my taste


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## billy p (Dec 19, 2007)

Hey Guys, thanks again, I'll just put off the purchase long enough to do it right the first time. Mike, if your wall of subwoofers isn't enough, than, you need to use a smaller room:R. 

Thanks Gents.


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