# Receiver upgrade



## J Harker (Dec 26, 2012)

Hi all, I'm looking to upgrade my receiver soon and was looking for some recommendations. My HT room is a small loft conversion 









About 12 foot by 9 foot. And not much height either about 5 feet. I'm looking for something with 7 channels. Maybe 7.2 but I'm not sure if it's worth putting two subs in such a small room. A few of the guys over in the Home Theatre Rooms thread have suggested going with something that has audussey software to help with speaker set up in my awkward little room. I'm finding though that audussey tech doesn't seem to get mentioned much on specs in the uk. I've currently got my eye on a Sony STRDH820. And also an Onkyo TX-NR616. I like the idea that the Onkyo has THX certification but to be honest I'm not really sure if that's something worth worrying about. My budget is somewhere between two and three hundred pounds. So I suppose around the $400 mark. Any ideas or thoughts on the Sony or Onkyo I've got in mind would be appreciated. The Sony has got some cracking reviews and I can pick one up for £199.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ill be honest with you, Its been my experience that Sony receivers with the exception of the ES line are a very poor performer The Onkyo will give you much better power output and features. THX certification gives you peace of mind that it will meet THX standards but moreso that you get some very useful processing modes that you will actually use.


----------



## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

I agree with Tony. An Onkyo or Denon is a much better receiver for the money.


----------



## J Harker (Dec 26, 2012)

Onkyo seem to have a rep for unreliability?


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

No more than any other brand, Onkyo also sells nearly twice as many receivers as any of the competition so there will be a bit more issues but over all many who have Onkyo products on this form have been happy with them.


----------



## J Harker (Dec 26, 2012)

The TX-NR616 seems like a decent machine?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

J Harker said:


> Onkyo seem to have a rep for unreliability?


Hello,
Ever since the x05 Series, Onkyo has really seemed to have polarized many. Starting with the x05's, all of a sudden there were stories of TX-SR805's spontaneous combustion and other oddities. All the while, there was never any documentation to the most hyperbolic of these "horror stories". Granted, most of this comes from one AV Forum.

For whatever reason, many here own and have owned Onkyo's for many years have had a quite positive experience. I have owned 4 Onkyo AVR's since the x05 Series and both my former TX-SR805 and TX-SR875 are both going strong over 5 years later. I did have a TX-NR3007 that did fail in around 10 months, but the replacement TX-NR3008 has been aces.

I do think Onkyo selling so many more units than their competition is not given enough credence. Onkyo's 600 and 700 Series have been at the top of AVR sales in both the US and Europe for quite some time. 

All the same, the choices are myriad. I have not been impressed by any Sony AVR for many years, but Yamaha, Pioneer, Denon and Marantz all make some excellent AVR's. However, if spending less than $1000, Onkyo's are really tough to beat in terms of true measured power and features.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The 616 is a good unit however if you can find last years models you will get a better bang for you buck, Look for either a 609 or a 709.


----------



## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Ill be honest with you, Its been my experience that Sony receivers with the exception of the ES line are a very poor performer The Onkyo will give you much better power output and features. THX certification gives you peace of mind that it will meet THX standards but moreso that you get some very useful processing modes that you will actually use.


I second that notion. Outside the ES line every Sony receiver I have tried in the Last 20-22 years, under-performs and doesn't have the levels of Clarity found in even the cheapest *Onkyo*. My alternatives to Onkyo would be Pioneer Elite, Marantz, Sherwood Newcastle, and if you can stretch the budget a little more go for Emotiva.


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> The 616 is a good unit however if you can find last years models you will get a better bang for you buck, Look for either a 609 or a 709.


Or 809


----------



## J Harker (Dec 26, 2012)

Thanks for your suggestions chaps. I've come down to a few options given my budget and availability. The 809 is an expensive model over here, nearly twice the cost of the 616. And I can't even find a dealer in the UK for Sherwood Newcastle or Emotiva. I'm still considering the Onkyo616, or maybe a Denon 2113. There's a Pioneer that looked ok and two sony options that I've read nothing but good reviews for. The STR-DH820 and the STR-DN1030. As for last years onkyos they are available end of line, here and there but price is all over the shop, there's precious little after sales support on them.


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

J Harker said:


> Thanks for your suggestions chaps. I've come down to a few options given my budget and availability. The 809 is an expensive model over here, nearly twice the cost of the 616. And I can't even find a dealer in the UK for Sherwood Newcastle or Emotiva. I'm still considering the Onkyo616, or maybe a Denon 2113. There's a Pioneer that looked ok and two sony options that I've read nothing but good reviews for. The STR-DH820 and the STR-DN1030. As for last years onkyos they are available end of line, here and there but price is all over the shop, there's precious little after sales support on them.


I would stay away from Sony. I think they are overrated and can't compete with Denon, Onkyo, nor Pioneer. Whatever you decide to do make sure the avr has at least the regular multieq that Audyssey offers on the Denons and Onkyos. If you go with Pioneer you get no Audyssey but I would take a Pioneer any day over a Sony.


----------



## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Emotiva is a Mail Order only company based in Tennessee, USA. Sherwood receivers can be found online. If you want an American product, there is a company based in the US called shipto.com and they will act as an American shipping address and forwarding service ($8/package) and re-send it out to a foreign address. So feel free to order away on places like accessories for less or newegg.com. 

Note, some American electronics will work on multiple or international power systems, like Europe. But a lot will not. Check the specifications before ordering.


----------



## Adamski3800 (Jan 16, 2013)

I would go for the Onkyo personally
but the Sony you can pick up a better deal so for £199 then I would go for the sony and then you could spend more money on a good cable because evan though most people don't think much on a good monster Cable.I used to use Belle wire but then i bought a monster Cable and Instantly noticed a huge Improvement
but it's your opinion but that's what I'd do for $400


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The only difference a cable will make is if you use a proper size awg. If you noticed a difference it was likely because you had too small a awg wire before.


----------



## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Adamski3800 said:


> I would go for the Onkyo personally
> but the Sony you can pick up a better deal so for £199 then I would go for the sony and then you could spend more money on a good cable because evan though most people don't think much on a good monster Cable.I used to use Belle wire but then i bought a monster Cable and Instantly noticed a huge Improvement
> but it's your opinion but that's what I'd do for $400


Sony Receivers generally are not good buys at any price; it costs less than an Onkyo for a reason. The sound quality from a cheap Onkyo matches more expensive Sonys that with the "ES" label. Non-ES receivers aren't even worth considering, because you can get an Onkyo for roughly the same price.


Let me put this another way: Sony makes just about everything, from microchips (CELL BBE), to Movies & Music to software to aviation electronics, and generally their Video products are what they do best. Onkyo focuses on making just one thing- Audio products and nothing else.


----------



## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

Adamski3800 said:


> used to use Belle wire but then i bought a monster Cable and Instantly noticed a huge Improvement


I would respectfully suggest that you are experiencing the "placebo effect".

http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths


----------



## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

8086 said:


> The sound quality from a cheap Onkyo matches more expensive Sonys that with the "ES" label. Non-ES receivers aren't even worth considering, because you can get an Onkyo for roughly the same price.


I am not a fan of Sony products anymore, but that is not because of the amplifier sound quality. I am a firm believer that ABX testing has proven that all amps sound the same. Note that does not include the effect of other features such as room EQ, surround modes, etc, that intentionally change the sound.

I do not like Sony because I feel that their design, ergonomics, and features are lacking plus they are not generally a good value (price competitive). There is some suggestion that their reliability is not as good, but I do not have the facts to support that. In fact, if you do a search, there are postings and websites that proclaim that [insert product name here] is awful, so take claims about reliability with a grain of salt.


----------



## Almadacr (May 5, 2011)

Why the hate for Sony ? Well in the test bench in power rating they are one of the best , but that's not all that we need today . 

So if i was the OP i would start listening to everything that i could from Onkyo , Denon , Yamaha , Pioneer , Marantz and start comparing them and note out what he likes and what not , since the OP is the one that has to live with it , he should be the one to chose what its best for him depending from his budget . 

For Adamski3800 you should seriously have your years check out , but do that after you buy another Monster cable :heehee:


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Almadacr said:


> Why the hate for Sony ? Well in the test bench in power rating they are one of the best , but that's not all that we need today .
> 
> So if i was the OP i would start listening to everything that i could from Onkyo , Denon , Yamaha , Pioneer , Marantz and start comparing them and note out what he likes and what not , since the OP is the one that has to live with it , he should be the one to chose what its best for him depending from his budget .
> 
> For Adamski3800 you should seriously have your years check out , but do that after you buy another Monster cable :heehee:


depending on his budget? that is the reason to not get Sony because if your on a budget you can get more for the money with other brands.


----------



## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Almadacr said:


> Why the hate for Sony ? Well in the test bench in power rating they are one of the best , but that's not all that we need today .
> 
> So if i was the OP i would start listening to everything that i could from Onkyo , Denon , Yamaha , Pioneer , Marantz and start comparing them and note out what he likes and what not , since the OP is the one that has to live with it , he should be the one to chose what its best for him depending from his budget .
> 
> For Adamski3800 you should seriously have your years check out , but do that after you buy another Monster cable :heehee:


There is a reason why some guys spend thousands of dollars on a 30watt amp. 

With audiophiles its not all about power but finesse. Sony may have nice electrical specs, but the tonality and QUALITY of sound isn't up to the same level as other brands you mentioned. Buy an Onkyo. Then find a used sony. DO a side by side comparison. You will see how muted, muddy, muffled a lot of the sound from the Sony is. 

There is also a reason why Onkyo is the most popular brand of receiver on AV forums as well as one of the best selling AVRs world wide. Sound Quality Trumps Sony's Numerical Quantity.


Note:
I have owned Onkyo/Integra, Pioneer, Harman-Kardon, and have listened to Krell, McIntosh, Adcom, Yamaha, Denon, Parasound, Marantz, Anthem, Arcam, NAD, and many others. I had Sony receiver and quickly sold it, do it its poor sonic characteristics; It may have said 100wpc, but it would distort and had a fraction of the weight of my 85wpc (Onkyo) integra DTR-5.5.


----------



## Almadacr (May 5, 2011)

Your analogy " audiophile" said everything and what you find good to you it might not be good for someone else . Every each one of us likes and listen to different things . I already had Sony , Pioneer , Marantz and right now i have a Onkyo but i needed things that the Onkyo offered and the latest Pioneers don't give exception made for the SC-68 ( i moved from Pioneer ) but i also made a compromise regarding sound , since it's used 50/50 music movies , and in music side the Pioneer sounds better than the Onkyo ( this is just my opinion for sure yours will be different ) of course the XT32 made a difference in the HT side . At the end we buy what it sounds good to us and i still maintain that the OP should go out and listen what ever he can and decide .


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Almadacr said:


> Your analogy " audiophile" said everything and what you find good to you it might not be good for someone else . Every each one of us likes and listen to different things . I already had Sony , Pioneer , Marantz and right now i have a Onkyo but i needed things that the Onkyo offered and the latest Pioneers don't give exception made for the SC-68 ( i moved from Pioneer ) but i also made a compromise regarding sound , since it's used 50/50 music movies , and in music side the Pioneer sounds better than the Onkyo ( this is just my opinion for sure yours will be different ) of course the XT32 made a difference in the HT side . At the end we buy what it sounds good to us and i still maintain that the OP should go out and listen what ever he can and decide .


Except but Sony


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
To me, this is not about bashing Sony. Rather, far too many years of both auditioning and studying Sony only to be left gobsmacked about especially power supply concerns. This going on for well over a decade.

While loath to do so usually, I am going to provide multiple outside links:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/sony-str-dn1030/menu-system
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/sony-str-da5400es-av-receiver?page=0,2
http://www.hometheater.com/content/sony-str-da5400es-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Mind you, the STR-DA5400ES has an MSRP of $2000.

Even when discounting concerns about power supply, there are also concerns about the lack of a competitive RoomEQ. Whereas YPAO (Yamaha), MCACC (Pioneer) and Audyssey (Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, and others) all have aspects which one might prefer over the other, I honestly do not know of anyone who has been impressed with Sony's proprietary EQ.

I could not recommend enough for any interested to simply audition as many AVR's as possible. While some might ascribe the audiophile's lexicon to SQ, I tend to focus on power transformer size, capacitor banks, and proper heat dissipation.
Cheers,
J


----------



## J Harker (Dec 26, 2012)

Thanks all, i do get the impression that this is something I'm going to have to go into alone. I've read a good number of independent reviews now and the majority of them aren't great for Onkyo, which I find strange given the fondness for them on here. The same seems to apply to Denon. However I'm finding Sony seems to get consistantly good reviews. I'm not saying this with any particular bias to one or the other, to be honest if it sounds good I don't care what make it is. I'm not that interested in features either, or menu quality or remote control or even aesthetics. I want to listen to it not look at it. As has been pointed out we all hear things differently and what might sound great to one of us might not to another. I think I'm probably going to have to buy something and try it, and just make sure I can take it back and change it if I'm not happy.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

J Harker said:


> I've read a good number of independent reviews now and the majority of them aren't great for Onkyo,


I would be curious as to where these reviews are as I have not read many that are negative at all.


----------



## J Harker (Dec 26, 2012)

Please don't think I'm trying to be awkward here guys, im an amateur in the extreme. I'll try and link up a few of the things I've been reading. 

http://www.whathifi.com/review/onkyo-tx-nr515
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/cr/B0080D3C04/ref=aw_d_cr_electronics?qid=1358458307&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/cr/B0077V88W2/ref=aw_d_cr_electronics
http://www.whathifi.com/review/sony-str-dn1030


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> I would be curious as to where these reviews are as I have not read many that are negative at all.


I have always heard rave reviews for Onkyo except for hdmi and overheating issues. I don't think that is with every unit though.


----------



## J Harker (Dec 26, 2012)

In fairness now I'm trying to find the things that have put me off onkyo it's not that easy. Doesn't take much more than a few negative comments I suppose.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

There is one forum (who will remain unmentioned) that seems to have the brunt of Onkyo bashers for some reason its like a disease over there.


----------



## J Harker (Dec 26, 2012)

I'm only on one other forum for this kind of stuff and I haven't even enquired about receivers, so can't comment.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

J Harker said:


> Please don't think I'm trying to be awkward here guys, im an amateur in the extreme. I'll try and link up a few of the things I've been reading.
> 
> http://www.whathifi.com/review/onkyo-tx-nr515
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/cr/B0080D3C04/ref=aw_d_cr_electronics?qid=1358458307&sr=8-1
> ...



While I do enjoy many of the UK AV Magazines, I do find issue with What-Hi-Fi?'s lack of any sort of measurements or even providing pictures showing the internal design. 

And while I do find some Consumer Reviews on Amazon quite helpful, there are a great number of trolls (for lack of a better term) who are often not even verified purchasers who seem to have awfully bad luck. 

To wit "Well, guess what -as many of you have predicted, I went through all the trouble of setting it up (and reprogramming my URC MX 850) only to have the main hdmi out fail within a day. Reset the system and it worked again for maybe an hour or so, then failed again. I reset it I think three or four times, and then it stopped working post reset. I think someone had it right "

While I do not doubt that there are DOA's and whatnot. However, HDMI Board Failures after a single day are exceedingly rare. Moreover, if there was a chance to place actual wagers, I would hazard many who do experience HDMI Board issues with Onkyo (or anyone else for that matter) do not follow any of the placement requirements in respect to proper ventilation.

Perhaps I am cynical after following the multitude "My Onkyo TX-SR805 Caught Fire" threads for around 5 years ago that never have been substantiated with one single picture. Add to that the 600 Series Onkyo's have been the number one selling AVR Series for around 5 years which naturally will lead to more having issues.

I do agree that, especially with the 2012 Onkyo AVR Series, the number of Firmware Updates released in such a short time in decidedly cause for concern. It is a major reason why, in instances of recommending an Onkyo, I have been recommending the 2011 or x09 AVR's more often than not. 
The perception that many manufacturers are rushing out products without much if any real Beta Testing does feel real to me and spans multiple product categories.

I started this after the x08 Series Ribbon Cable Recall. Upon the introduction of the heavily redesigned x09 Series I spent an eye bleeding number of hours following all manner of "Owners Forums" spanning numerous AV Forums for the first 3 months before feeling comfortable recommending them.


----------



## J Harker (Dec 26, 2012)

Question, my current (old) amp, which I paid around £500 for only supports DD5.1 and Dts. When I play blu-rays through it using my PS3, containing Dolby TruHD or Dts master audio or whatever high defination surround format happens to be on the disc, what am I actually getting?


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

If you have it set up correctly it will downconvert the audio to high bitrate Dolby digital or DTS


----------



## J Harker (Dec 26, 2012)

That's what I thought. Just wanted to confirm it. Probably a daft question I know but do the hi-def formats sound much better?


----------



## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

asere said:


> I have always heard rave reviews for Onkyo except for hdmi and overheating issues. I don't think that is with every unit though.


They get warm and don't overheat. Even in the south in my house with out air conditioning on.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

J Harker said:


> That's what I thought. Just wanted to confirm it. Probably a daft question I know but do the hi-def formats sound much better?


If you have the speakers and sub that can reproduce them, Yes


----------



## J Harker (Dec 26, 2012)

If I go with Onkyo I'm pretty much looking at the 515 or the 616. I've found a 609 available in a clearance for £150 but it's in Glasgow, around 800 miles away and they won't deliver. I can get the 616 with a five year warranty for £380. Am I right in understanding this would need a dongle to get online for firmware updates?


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

J Harker said:


> If I go with Onkyo I'm pretty much looking at the 515 or the 616. I've found a 609 available in a clearance for £150 but it's in Glasgow, around 800 miles away and they won't deliver. I can get the 616 with a five year warranty for £380. Am I right in understanding this would need a dongle to get online for firmware updates?


That is correct, the 616 would need a dongle and only has the 2EQ version of Audyssey. If that even matters to you.


----------



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

8086 said:


> Sony Receivers generally are not good buys at any price; it costs less than an Onkyo for a reason. The sound quality from a cheap Onkyo matches more expensive Sonys that with the "ES" label. Non-ES receivers aren't even worth considering, because you can get an Onkyo for roughly the same price.
> 
> 
> Let me put this another way: Sony makes just about everything, from microchips (CELL BBE), to Movies & Music to software to aviation electronics, and generally their Video products are what they do best. Onkyo focuses on making just one thing- Audio products and nothing else.


I agree with the above -- and everything else that has been said about Sony AVRs in this thread -- 100-percent; there are two absolute truths that have been spoken here by 808:

1. Sony receivers -- and will go so far as to suspect their so-called "premium" ES models as well -- are NOT even in the same stratosphere as those from Onkyo (and Denon, et al).

2. Sony does mainly VIDEO products right, and I would stick to their display devices, projectors, etc. instead of audio components (though they did make some sick-sounding three-head tape decks back in the day); this is coming from someone who owns one of their SXRD rear projection displays himself...

Without a tiny doubt in mind, Sony isn't to be compared AVR wise to the likes of Onkyo; everyone is pretty much spot-on about that here...

*ASERE: You see The Raid 2 yet?*


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Osage_Winter said:


> ASERE: You see The Raid 2 yet?


Not yet. I'm thinking on seeing the first one first.
I hear part 2 is brutal.


----------



## Rick R (Dec 3, 2013)

J Harker said:


> Please don't think I'm trying to be awkward here guys, im an amateur in the extreme. I'll try and link up a few of the things I've been reading.
> 
> http://www.whathifi.com/review/onkyo-tx-nr515
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/cr/B0080D3C04/ref=aw_d_cr_electronics?qid=1358458307&sr=8-1
> ...


First thing for me is I rarely trust whathifi reviews, they once criticised the Oppo 93 for all sorts of things so much so I wondered if they had actually had their hands on one. You will note that for manufacturers who advertise with them they almost without exception get good reviews for their products, it is an interesting experience to read through their associated forums.

That said the review link above for the Onkyo actually is quite a good one. Onkyo was actually one of the manufacturers I looked at recently when doing an AVR upgrade (I did have some concerns regarding failures with some models and that they used to run very hot) and nearly went that way until I read Sonnies review on the Denon AVR 4520, yeah I know a bit out of your budget but bear with me. I have had two occasions to contact Denon support in Ireland with exceptionally quick responses and service similar to that of Oppo, support is important to me and one of the things I take into account.

Yes the Sony STR DN1030 gets some good reviews and they do make some good products in their higher end models but mid range and starter kit tends to be, well rather mediocre as I have found. Secondly their support is dreadful in my experience taking weeks to answer and not that interested or competent if you phone them. 

I looked at Pioneer too and nearly went that way already having a Pioneer AVR I am very happy with in a second system. Three things put me off, the power supplies in the newer higher end models seem extremely light weight, look at the power consumption rating say 300watts and yet an output of 180watts per channel (or more) for a 7.1 system does not add up meaning major cut back in output power per channel when all channels are in busy use, yes audio power is measured a bit differently but you don't get something for nothing. Their support is not good, better than Sony but not much. The calibration system is not bad but takes a long time, has no sub woofer support. My recent experiences with Audessey make me understand why people enthuse about it.

I am not going to recommend a receiver to you, I have made a few suggestions about what you might want to look out for but as others have said you really need to go out and get demos of models in your price range take your favourite music and movies with you, any dealer worth his salt will spend a bit of time to demo models for you even if you don't buy from him, you might go back for something else if you have had decent service. Some features are a bit important, a good calibration system, sufficient HDMI inputs and outputs as well as analogue and digital, decent passthro and upscaling. The ability for firmware upgrades either by usb or over the net so ethernet connection is a plus. Internet radio is a nice feature I use it a lot for decent quality stations far better than DAB and it is world wide.

At this point I am going to suggest you should have Onkyo and Denon on your list to review and I would not exclude Yamaha well made and reliable products, the Denon AVR X2000 is in your budget so should be worth a listen, Pioneer is OK in the elite or higher end range but the cheaper models have unacceptable cost cutting measures in build standard and quality, this is of course subject to my personal reservations on their power supply units. Have a look at Richer Sounds on the net but don't be swayed by some of the exaggerations and pure sales guff you will see, however some of their prices are really competitive. I would also suggest checking out Creative Audio in Shrewsbury (I don't know where you are in the UK but they may be close enough to you and they have a good demo room and competent staff but they also do a lot on line and are very helpful and honest with good prices, I got my Denon there at a steal :unbelievable. There is another good dealer in Carlisle who's name escapes me at the moment, think it is Peter Tysonlddude:.

Best of luck with your eventual choice, but take your time and don't be afraid to go back for a second demo and on top of all that if you can get a home demo better still, but bear in mind that if you have a return option after purchase, someone else may have had *that unit you buy home before you *and essentially you will have a second hand product:hissyfit:.

PS I note you ask about a wifi dongle earlier, few AVR seem to come with wifi or even a dongle (some do as a costed accessory) particularly in what appears to be in your budget range, I would really recommend a wired connection if you can not too bad to run in long ethernet cables are available from Asda or on line for even longer for a few pounds wireless can be a problem depending on location and the number of people with routers close to you causing intereference particularly those with BT some of which radiate BTFon and wireless hot spots permanently. Hi Def Sound? yes with the AVR's you are looking at a definite improvement although some standard Dolby and DTS tracks can sound good too, Diehard 4 being an example.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Very nice write up above. While I could not possibly agree more about the importance of power supplies, there are instances where the synergy of the HT affords the need for very little actual power.
Such as a relatively modest room and or using high efficiency speakers.

This is a wholly different point from the importance of sufficient current in situations wholly divergent from above. My rig is a sad example of this.

I suppose part of the point I am making is I would place almost as high a percentage on reliability and RoomEQ as well. 
Moreover, in my former life as a mod here, I often advocated for simply getting the cheapest AVR from a preferred brand provided it is equipped with preouts. 
Sadly, the preamp stage in a $3k AVR often differs little from a $1000...

Gots to get to the racquet club to play tennis. Hope to come back to this as time affords as it is an interesting discussion.
Best,
Jack


----------



## Rick R (Dec 3, 2013)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Very nice write up above. While I could not possibly agree more about the importance of power supplies, there are instances where the synergy of the HT affords the need for very little actual power.
> Such as a relatively modest room and or using high efficiency speakers.
> 
> ...


Hope you enjoyed your tennis, have not personally played racquets for a few years being a bit lddude:. I agree quite an interesting discussion and being in the UK (as the OP) I thought my experiences might be useful to him. There are so many things that I would like to recommend him to watch out for but then I would be writing a book. I take your point about pre-outs but I suspect with the OP's current budget that it is probably unlikely on the model he can afford. One thing I forgot to mention is to look out for current models coming to the end of range or being superceeded (Denon is just doing this bringing out a new range with HDMI 2 etc. but for practical use down the line it will be a while before it becomes essential) so I suspect there will be some good bargains to be had there, I got my Denon 4520 at a rediculous price which I can't reveal cos I promised not to and although it is not yet superceeded it will be soon but it's old enough to have no real bugs, although there are a couple of things I wish they had done differently I am really delighted with how it performs and their support. From a reliability point of view it is probably true that Yamaha is hard to beat, my pal has my old DSP3090 which is still going strong. I note Denon in their new releases are now including wifi even on the lower models but have yet to see any pricing.

Like you I gotta go getting ready to depart on hols and can't leave it all to the other half but will be keeping an eye on this one with particular interest in seeing what the OP finally decides on.


----------



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

asere said:


> Not yet. I'm thinking on seeing the first one first.
> I hear part 2 is brutal.


The first one is equally as brutal; did you see my review of the sequel on DVD?

It's right up your alley what with the non-stop splashes of blood and broken body parts...even though it's not a horror film.


----------



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Rick R said:


> their support is dreadful in my experience taking weeks to answer and not that interested or competent if you phone them.


If you think Sony is dreadful in this regard, Onkyo without doubt takes the cake in this category...and I'm saying that as a diehard fan of their hardware...:rolleyesno:


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Osage_Winter said:


> The first one is equally as brutal; did you see my review of the sequel on DVD?
> 
> It's right up your alley what with the non-stop splashes of blood and broken body parts...even though it's not a horror film.


No I missed your review but I'll get to reading.
I will see it for sure


----------



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

asere said:


> No I missed your review but I'll get to reading.
> I will see it for sure


Look forward to hearing your thoughts and reading your comments! :wave:


----------



## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

8086 said:


> Sony Receivers generally are not good buys at any price; it costs less than an Onkyo for a reason. The sound quality from a cheap Onkyo matches more expensive Sonys that with the "ES" label. Non-ES receivers aren't even worth considering, because you can get an Onkyo for roughly the same price.
> 
> 
> Let me put this another way: Sony makes just about everything, from microchips (CELL BBE), to Movies & Music to software to aviation electronics, and generally their Video products are what they do best. Onkyo focuses on making just one thing- Audio products and nothing else.





Osage_Winter said:


> I agree with the above -- and everything else that has been said about Sony AVRs in this thread -- 100-percent; there are two absolute truths that have been spoken here by 808:
> 
> 1. Sony receivers -- and will go so far as to suspect their so-called "premium" ES models as well -- are NOT even in the same stratosphere as those from Onkyo (and Denon, et al).
> 
> ...



"[Sony] it costs less than an Onkyo for a reason."

So the more expensive a product is, the better it sounds? There is a famous study on marketing. It was about a beer company that was losing sales and going out of business. A consultant came in and told them to raise their price, make the bottle taller, put gold foil on the top, and make the label fancier. Same beer. Sales jumped.

Marketing people know that lowering the price can kill sales while raising the price can increase sales, which is exactly the opposite of what we would expect a consumer to do. Conclusion: Higher price does not mean higher quality - especially when comparing different brands.

"The sound quality from a cheap Onkyo matches more expensive Sonys".

What is your evidence here?

"Sony makes just about everything" - so therefore they cannot be very good at A/V receivers. Show me the proof that a large company cannot be organized so that a small division cannot be the best at what they do.

"Sony receivers...... are NOT even in the same stratosphere as those from Onkyo (and Denon, et al)."

In what way? Evidence? Reviews? Measurements?

"Sony isn't to be compared AVR wise to the likes of Onkyo"

In terms of reliability, you are right. Onkyo has a track record of having high failure rates. We can only hope that they have put those problems behind them. In talking to the repair people at places, I get mixed messages.


----------



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

TheHammer said:


> "[Sony] it costs less than an Onkyo for a reason."
> 
> So the more expensive a product is, the better it sounds? There is a famous study on marketing. It was about a beer company that was losing sales and going out of business. A consultant came in and told them to raise their price, make the bottle taller, put gold foil on the top, and make the label fancier. Same beer. Sales jumped.
> 
> ...


Oh please -- don't start taking sentences out of context so you can begin a brand-bashing campaign or start some "YOU BETTER HAVE PROOF OR I'LL KILL YOU" nonsense so prevalent on forums like this...you knew exactly what I meant when I made that comment about Onkyo being compared to Sony -- it was a PERFORMANCE oriented standpoint and I'll even do one better. Onkyo may have had high failure rate reports recently, but they're nothing compared to REAL WORLD performance disappointment feedback from previous Sony (NON ES) receiver owners and my own personal experience with the brand in this category; I can't tell you how many Sony surround receivers I sent back after purchasing them and before discovering the Onkyo brand due to buttons either literally falling off in my hands like pieces of plastic toys or crackling with noise, or the units shutting down (they were 100-percent installed correctly) after moderate use and moderate volume...believe me, I could go on and on...

It's generally accepted amongst home theater aficionado circles that Sony non-ES AVRs are to be avoided like the plague and that units from brands like Denon and Onkyo normally run circles around them build quality wise and in sheer measured power output (sure, some references are bloated from Onkyo, and Denon, but the power ratings Sony provides on their lower-end product is an absolute joke compared to how it actually tests). The units are cheap, unreliable and generally accepted to be the last choice when considering a receiver -- NOW, that being said, when it comes to VIDEO and professional broadcasting gear? Sony is indeed an industry leader; my SXRD TV has been great to us and the Sony LCDs I've seen have looked fantastic. But that's where I would draw the line with this brand.


----------



## Rick R (Dec 3, 2013)

Osage_Winter said:


> If you think Sony is dreadful in this regard, Onkyo without doubt takes the cake in this category...and I'm saying that as a diehard fan of their hardware...:rolleyesno:


I had heard their support was not that good a bit tardy was the impression I got, but I was not aware it was that bad :blink:. 

The bad experiences I had with Sony was a couple of years ago with their Bluray players and headphones, neither met their published specs (blatantly) and took ages to get resolved and I'm talking months here, I was very disappointed at the time :sad: because some earlier products to those had performed flawlessly. I have not bought Sony since.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hi,
Rick, I think a key differentiator when it comes to brand perception is how distributor and or manufacturer decisions play a key role. That is Sony UK is no doubt quite different than Sony USA and well might offer excellent CS. And so forth. 

I have seldom if ever recommended Sony AVR's due to frankly depressing bench test results and not being a fan of their RoomEQ. My experience with Sony in respect to reliability is actually quite good, but the juice is decidedly not worth the squeeze.

Also, Yamaha is one of my faves. They have been remarkably consistent for decades and offer stellar reliability. I do wish they would use Audyssey as opposed to their proprietary YPAO, but that is strictly a personal preference thing.

Hope you have a great holiday. Tennis has massively overtaken my HT dorkdom of late and I could not possibly be more thankful. I will say the first couple of months were brutal when faced with just how stunningly out of shape I was, but thankfully powered through that. I suppose what I am saying is get out there and hit!


----------



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Rick R said:


> I had heard their support was not that good a bit tardy was the impression I got, but I was not aware it was that bad :blink:.


Oh, it's downright awful from a consumer standpoint...if you go onto their site and check their "help" forums you'll see what I mean -- as soon as a customer begins pressing their reps about specific problems with their units, a rep immediately responds with "if you are still experiencing issues call our assistance department at..." and this occurs with the least bit of input from the techs in the forums. They immediately push the customer off to some extension that normally goes nowhere. When you get a chance, Google "Onkyo service stinks" or look on AVS.com to get an idea of how bad it is...

They literally don't care about their customers. 



> The bad experiences I had with Sony was a couple of years ago with their Bluray players and headphones, neither met their published specs (blatantly) and took ages to get resolved and I'm talking months here, I was very disappointed at the time :sad: because some earlier products to those had performed flawlessly. I have not bought Sony since.


As I myself and others have been saying, Sony is -- for whatever reason -- notorious for blowing up specs to ridiculous bloated numbers (mainly in amplifier performance but I've seen it elsewhere too) that never measure out in the real world. Ironic that they were a major force behind the Blu-ray format, if not THE biggest, and their Blu-ray players never really impressed anyone and were constantly outmatched by decks from OPPO and some others; I always found it curious that when they released their $2K or so flagship ES BD player, major publications like _Home Theater_ that did reviews on it found that it didn't really offer anything that the $500 and under OPPOs, Panasonics, et al did and that, most disturbingly, was plagued by reliability and response speed problems...this is totally unacceptable in a product that costs that much. 

As far as company feedback and tech support goes, OPPO takes this award hands-down; they are on the complete opposite end of where Onkyo is in this regard...:T


----------



## Rick R (Dec 3, 2013)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hi,
> Rick, I think a key differentiator when it comes to brand perception is how distributor and or manufacturer decisions play a key role. That is Sony UK is no doubt quite different than Sony USA and well might offer excellent CS. And so forth.
> 
> I have seldom if ever recommended Sony AVR's due to frankly depressing bench test results and not being a fan of their RoomEQ. My experience with Sony in respect to reliability is actually quite good, but the juice is decidedly not worth the squeeze.
> ...


I think we are right on the same page, Sony CS in my experience is not good here although they did once replace a mid range headphone product with their top of the range digital model FOC after a lot of nagging and I still have those. Apart from the problems with AVR I have found some items to be flimsy and not substantial enough for normal use. But the biggest sin for me is in the earlier point I made about failure to meet the basic published specs on the packaging and enclosed manuals (carefully hidden on their website in the case of the headphones).

Yamaha I fully agree and I nearly went for the 3030 well made and a reliability reputation second to none, 4ohm compatibility only on the front channels and their YPAO were the only things that really put me off and Sonnies review on the Denon 4520 sealed the issue. I have no reason to change that decision either as Denon's customer service has proven to be as responsive as Oppo's (I have the 93 and 95) not that their has been anything seriously wrong I was having a problem recently with backing up the settings turned out it was Mozilla Firefox not the 4520. I have put a post on the 'Denon AVR-4520CI Official Owners, Discussion and Information Thread' for anyone using the latest versions of Firefox on how to resolve the time out problem.

Yeah away on holiday tomorrow get a bit of swimming and cycling in (I'm not a total nerd :heehee and most importantly to see our grandson who has just come through open heart surgery a few weeks ago this is going to change his life at the age of 20 and a keen footballer we can already hear and see the difference but it will be a few more months yet before he is fully fit.


----------



## Rick R (Dec 3, 2013)

Osage_Winter said:


> Oh, it's downright awful from a consumer standpoint...if you go onto their site and check their "help" forums you'll see what I mean -- as soon as a customer begins pressing their reps about specific problems with their units, a rep immediately responds with "if you are still experiencing issues call our assistance department at..." and this occurs with the least bit of input from the techs in the forums. They immediately push the customer off to some extension that normally goes nowhere. When you get a chance, Google "Onkyo service sucks" or look on AVS.com to get an idea of how bad it is...
> 
> They literally don't care about their customers.
> 
> ...


I think after what you have said I'm glad I went Denon, others have suggested that Denon have been guilty of exaggerating specs in some cases, however in couple of recent lab test reviews I have seen for the 4520 it met or exceeded its spec in almost every case and coupled with my so far limited experience with their excellent customer service, which I mentioned earlier I think I have made the right choice. Their customer service with responses in under 12 hours has so far has emulated Oppo (I have the 93 and 95). I could not agree more their customer service is the best I have ever experienced and many others rave about (nothing is too small or too minor and gets an equally quick response to all other enquiries), a well earned reputation.

Again I agree on the Sony front, very much my experience, Home Theatre Secrets were very critical of some of their products particularly Bluray players after they got some new test equipment and reviewed the Oppo 93, they actually retracted their recommendation for one of the Sony players. Unfortunately as we see in the Bluray format they were the major force as you say and now we suffer for that with players needing regular firmware updates for disc compatibility etc. etc. and the studios making a pigs ear of authoring because the format allows them to. However that is another story I guess for another day.

Thanks for the info on Onkyo customer service, it is still very nice kit as long as it does not require repair:gulp:


----------



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Rick R said:


> I think after what you have said I'm glad I went Denon, others have suggested that Denon have been guilty of exaggerating specs in some cases, however in couple of recent lab test reviews I have seen for the 4520 it met or exceeded its spec in almost every case and coupled with my so far limited experience with their excellent customer service, which I mentioned earlier I think I have made the right choice. Their customer service with responses in under 12 hours has so far has emulated Oppo (I have the 93 and 95). I could not agree more their customer service is the best I have ever experienced and many others rave about (nothing is too small or too minor and gets an equally quick response to all other enquiries), a well earned reputation.
> 
> Again I agree on the Sony front, very much my experience, Home Theatre Secrets were very critical of some of their products particularly Bluray players after they got some new test equipment and reviewed the Oppo 93, they actually retracted their recommendation for one of the Sony players. Unfortunately as we see in the Bluray format they were the major force as you say and now we suffer for that with players needing regular firmware updates for disc compatibility etc. etc. and the studios making a pigs ear of authoring because the format allows them to. However that is another story I guess for another day.
> 
> Thanks for the info on Onkyo customer service, it is still very nice kit as long as it does not require repair:gulp:


Glad I could be of help, Rick, and I agree with everything you say above. :T


----------



## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

Osage_Winter said:


> Oh please -- don't start taking sentences out of context so you can begin a brand-bashing campaign or start some "YOU BETTER HAVE PROOF OR I'LL KILL YOU" nonsense so prevalent on forums like this...


An interesting reaction to my question.




Osage_Winter said:


> you knew exactly what I meant when I made that comment about Onkyo being compared to Sony


No. It was not obvious. All I saw was a blanket statement.




Osage_Winter said:


> -- it was a PERFORMANCE oriented standpoint


Here is a well thought of website that did a review in the sub $500 category, that thinks otherwise.

http://www.audioholics.com/how-to-shop/best-budget-receiver-2013



Osage_Winter said:


> and I'll even do one better. Onkyo may have had high failure rate reports recently, but they're nothing compared to REAL WORLD performance disappointment feedback from previous Sony (NON ES) receiver owners and my own personal experience with the brand in this category;


I personally had an awful experience with an Onkyo and would never purchase another one. However, a sample of one is hardly grounds for condemning and entire product line from a company whether it be Onkyo or Sony. 



Osage_Winter said:


> It's generally accepted amongst home theater aficionado circles that Sony non-ES AVRs are to be avoided like the plague and that units from brands like Denon and Onkyo normally run circles around them build quality wise and in sheer measured power output


Please show me this information.

There is a tremendous amount of mis-information being disseminated on this discussion group. For example:



8086 said:


> There is also a reason why Onkyo is the most popular brand of receiver on AV forums as well as one of the best selling AVRs world wide. Sound Quality Trumps Sony's Numerical Quantity.


I have no idea how he got this information. I have looked for sales information for the individual brands and cannot find anything. Amazon lists their relative sales:

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-...eivers-Amplifiers/zgbs/electronics/3213035011

Onkyo is not at the top. Of course, not all brands are sold through Amazon, so this listing is hardly fair.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-str-da5400es-av-receiver-page-2

To quote from this review: 

Overall, the [Sony] STR-DA5400ES’s sonic performance on both music and soundtracks was among the most impressive—if not the most impressive—of all the A/V receivers I’ve yet reviewed.

Yet people on this group state "Sony may have nice electrical specs, but the tonality and QUALITY of sound isn't up to the same level as other brands you mentioned."

Of the two above, who do you trust more to have an accurate review?

"Let me put this another way: Sony makes just about everything, from microchips (CELL BBE), to Movies & Music to software to aviation electronics, and generally their Video products are what they do best. Onkyo focuses on making just one thing- Audio products and nothing else."

I am not aware of any evidence that a small company can make a better sounding amp than a larger one. In fact, I would guess (emphasize guess) that the opposite would be true as a large company has superior resources, both economic and scientific, that a smaller company cannot hope to have access to. I base this on having worked for a huge multinational company as well as a much smaller one.



Osage_Winter said:


> when it comes to VIDEO and professional broadcasting gear? Sony is indeed an industry leader; my SXRD TV has been great to us and the Sony LCDs I've seen have looked fantastic.


It is funny that you write that. I have a Sony RP LCoS that I love. It is almost 7 years old. I would not purchase a Sony today. I am hoping to hold onto my Sony until the OLED sets get much larger and less expensive. Sony has fallen behind in that race from the reports I have read. I hope they catch up.

My point is that there have been blanket statement made here as fact. I disagree with them. Most importantly, they are not fact, but opinion by those who seem to have undying loyalty to a brand and no basis to make their condemnations of certain brands. These statements are misleading to those trying to make up their mind as to which is the best A/V receiver to purchase.


----------



## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

I have read several posts in this forum that contain claims of obvious sonic difference between amps. I would like to offer a different opinion.

If amp A from Company 1 always sounded obviously superior to amp B from Company 2, wouldn't everyone who does a review agree? The answer is that there are as many opinions as their are amps. You will find in certain forums those who bash Company 1 while other forums are full of those who bash Company 2. They tend to congregate in certain forums because those who disagree get pounded on (like I got in a earlier post). 

If the sound difference is obvious, how would Company 2 ever stay in business? Or better, why wouldn't they just copy what Company 1 does right? The answer is that they generally do copy each other. Most amps are pretty much the same. There are differences, and amateur reviewers like to pounce on those. But these do not affect the sound.

If these amps sound so drastically different, then why, when people do not know what they are listening to, can't they pick them out? The answer is because the amps do not sound different (as long as they are operated within their limits). This is called blind testing. ABX testing is one of these. When these people who claim they can hear the difference participate in these tests, the sound differences melt away. No one has been able to pick out which one is Sony, Denon, Pioneer (RIP), Yamaha, Onkyo, Marantz, etc.....

This takes the fun out of these forums. Sorry about that.

My advice to those "newbies" who are looking for the best receiver upgrade:

1) There is no best.

2) No, there is no sweet sounding amp and no harsh amp. When people are not aware of what amp they are listening to, they cannot tell the difference.

3) Don't let a little power difference sway you. Double the power is barely noticeable (3 db). 100 watts vs. 110, vs 120 is not important. 

4) Select your choice based on price, features*, looks, ease of use and reliability. Reliablity is difficult to know as there is little record keeping (statistics).

5) When someone tries to tell you that brand A is lousy, but brand B is great, see #1 & #2.

6) If you want to upgrade the quality of your sound, the speaker (and speaker placement) will make the biggest difference.

7) If you are using a powered subwoofer, then its output capacity (how loud it can get) is more likely than the A/V receiver to limit how loud your system can get. 

* This is the most difficult and perplexing part of this equation. There are so many features packed into these wonderful A/V receivers that it is almost impossible to make a rational choice. Zones, HDMI outputs, EQ types, ...... 

There are a few different technologies used in amps called class. AB is the most common. Class D is another. All AB amps run warm. 

http://knowledge.sonicelectronix.com/view/printview-140.html

The only bad choice you can make are:

1) Spend more money than you have to.

2) Not get all the features you want.

Some people will get a lemon and it will break. But electronics are generally quite reliable. They usually break down fairly soon after purchase (burn in), or last a long time. Power surge (lightening) or running continually without proper ventilation can shorten their lifespan. 

Best of luck to you.


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I have long ago learned to steer clear of these brand loyalist threads. Having said that I think both of you make valid points and parts of both of your views are valid. I have no experience with Sony receivers but based on reading reviews and general consensus I would probably steer clear of them. This is all opinion based and should not necessarily be adopted as rational thinking by someone considering a Sony receiver.


----------



## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Osage_Winter said:


> To the OP (if he even drops into the thread anymore):


I do, on occasion.

Osage_Winter (who has already departed the discussion - thank you) and TheHammer: Time to move on. Thank you both for the objective, value-filled, and respectful portions of your posts. Sparring and arguing are not allowed here.

To all: Feel free to continue the discussion, as long as we: stick to facts, avoid brand bashing, keep the language squeaky clean, and treat each other with respect.

Thank you.


----------



## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Osage_Winter said:


> *Trust me when I tell you it's agreed amidst home theater enthusiast circles that Sony A/V receivers are considered junk compared to the likes of Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, et al.* :T


About the only thing that's agreed on, is that enthusiasts don't agree on _anything_, including Brands.
Reasonable folks should pick brands/components based on their needs, viewing them as inanimate commodity pieces, rather than something for deep emotional attachment.
And hopefully be able to recognize the difference between opinions and facts, giving them whatever weighting they use in their decision making, but never conflating them.
Hopefully.

cheers


----------



## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

JBrax said:


> I have long ago learned to steer clear of these brand loyalist threads. Having said that I think both of you make valid points and parts of both of your views are valid. I have no experience with Sony receivers but based on reading reviews and general consensus I would probably steer clear of them. This is all opinion based and should not necessarily be adopted as rational thinking by someone considering a Sony receiver.


I have general pre-conceptions of certain brands (not limited to A/V receivers). Yet I fully admit that they may not be accurate or based on fact. I purchased a new A/V receiver this year and did the best to ignore what I thought I knew, and researched as much as possible to get accurate information to make my decision.

If you have read professional reviews from 'reputable sources' about Sony, feel free to post them here. I did a quick search and posted two that gave Sony the top rating. 

If Sony is really that bad, why is it 3 of the top 10 receivers that Amazon sells? Why at Crutchfield, do 5 out of 5 give the Sony 1050 a 5 star rating? 4 of 5 give the 5800 5 stars - the one gives it 4 stars because of issues with their PlayStation. A quick look at Amazon gives Sony similar customer ratings of other brands.

Like you, I did not give much weight 'brand loyalalist' opinions. What I did read just confused me as I could find people who bashed every brand. For amusement, try doing a search for '[brand name] sucks' and see what pops up. Unfortunately, volume of complaints is of little value as those that sell more are likely to have more complaints and may not reflect the percent of defects.

Best of luck to you on your choice. Let us know what you decide to purchase.


----------



## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Well this turned into quite the can of worms. I just wanted to point out that there are certain names that always rise to the top of the quick recommendations list, typically Onkyo, Denon , Marrantz. But there are lots of other options out there, and they aren't the be-all, end-all of the A/V world. I have heard nice stuff from Sony, JVC, and other brands. It all depends on your personal needs, preferences, budget, expectations, room, and other equipment. Just because you haven't got the latest from one of the big three doesn't mean you have a junk system. 

The main thing is that YOU enjoy what you have, whether it is a simple HTIB or an expensive complicated system. Have a listen to what you can locally, your own ears are the best judge for your tastes, not some anonymous internet review. There's good and bad to all manufacturers and product lines, but something will be a good match for you.


----------

