# The great T-Amp shootout.



## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Good morning, after some careful thought, I have decided to do a round robin style T-amp test. 

Please see the poll for choices to add to the Gizmo and Sonic Impact Super-T. 

For this test, we will use a pair of high quality bookshelf speakers - I have Dana 630's, Ascend 170 SE's, NHT Model 2's, and could probably get a pair of X-LS, too.


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## Cujobob (Feb 12, 2008)

The Value Mod has the upgraded Caps which make the biggest difference...if your amp can compete with that, then it would show us if the caps in Gizmo are upto par.


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## BradJudy (Feb 12, 2008)

If you're buying two, I would vote PopPulse and Trends with your choice on which level of Trends. 

IMO, there isn't a point to doing the "MiniMod" since it's mainly a QA check and the only change it makes is adding a heat sink. So I think the Trends should either be stock (that's what I own) or Value Mod. 

For the speakers, I'm baised towards using the Ascends since I own a pair, but whatever the listeners are most comfortable is best.


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## emac (Feb 13, 2008)

Considering that at the NJ GTG, the Gizmo compared favorably to dweekie's highly modded Trends w/ the souped up SMPS, I think that the Gizmo will beat out any variation of the Trends that Craig has up here. Now, if you were to take the better modded Trends + the SMPS, that would be very interesting. As for the PopPulse, I haven't heard it, so I don't know. It would be interesting though.

And Craig, if you want one of dweekie's SMPS's for the shootout, I can send one up to you. Works equally well on the Sonic Impact and the Trends. And believe me, it makes a significant difference in dynamics and the soundstage.


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## billnchristy (Feb 12, 2008)

I talked to Craig about this and other modded t-amps.

He wants to test against stuff that people can buy and plug right in and listen to, not stuff that geeks like us labor over for hours to squeeze every little drop of performance out of.

It makes sense to me, most people buying the gizmo (most mind you) are not going to tear it apart to see its guts within 90 minutes of owning it.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

django1 said:


> I almost hate to ask: blind test? Don't get angry anybody...:huge:


LOL - Yes, it's a blind test. :cloud9:


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## Cujobob (Feb 12, 2008)

django1 said:


> I almost hate to ask: blind test? Don't get angry anybody...:huge:


ZOMG WTF!?

Err...yeah I second that notion :salute:


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## emac (Feb 13, 2008)

billnchristy said:


> I talked to Craig about this and other modded t-amps.
> 
> He wants to test against stuff that people can buy and plug right in and listen to, not stuff that geeks like us labor over for hours to squeeze every little drop of performance out of.
> 
> It makes sense to me, most people buying the gizmo (most mind you) are not going to tear it apart to see its guts within 90 minutes of owning it.



Oh come now. 90 minutes is far too long to go without tearing it apart.

Seriously though, Craig's position makes a lot of sense. It does surprise me somewhat that some company hasn't put out a reasonably inexpensive SMPS for the Trends or SI T amp (unless I've missed something). Audiomagus has some, but they end up costing more than the amp itself.


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## HAL (Sep 22, 2009)

Craig,
I have a pair of B-stock Mascarey X-LS Classics I can send if you need a pair. Waiting to hear from the Ninja about the Encore upgrade.

Would be interested in how they do in the shootout with all the amps.


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## billnchristy (Feb 12, 2008)

> Seriously though, Craig's position makes a lot of sense. It does surprise me somewhat that some company hasn't put out a reasonably inexpensive SMPS for the Trends or SI T amp (unless I've missed something). Audiomagus has some, but they end up costing more than the amp itself.
> Edit/Delete Message


I don't know, Hypex has listened and is designing a SMPS. Most people don't think they can sound good.


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## dweeke (Oct 30, 2006)

I vote the original Trends since that's pretty standard, and the Populse since the power rating of 24Watts is similar.


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## dweeke (Oct 30, 2006)

Actually, Craig, can you consider a Nuforce? That thing's the new hot item to get with quite a buzz generating. $199 at the moment, $249 in the future. I'm sure this place will be hammered with Nuforce vs Gizmo in the future. 

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/nuforce7/icon.html

http://amazon.nuforce-icon.com/


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## bobbyg1983 (Apr 13, 2008)

+1 on the NuForce

This guy has definitely caught my eye as of late, and the early reviews are very positive. I think at $199 ($250 after the promo period), it definitely falls into the same category and I've love to see it faced off against the Gizmo!!


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Maybe we will end up with three. In terms of pricing, the Nuforce will be more money than the "Gizmo-2" ... which will be a 36 (8 ohms) to 50 (4 Ohms) amp... and will include remote, Toslink, Coax, USB, and subwoofer outs.

It would be interesting to hear how $129 Gizmo compares to $249 Nuforce. 

As both the Nuforce and the Gizmo have subwoofer outputs, this is REALLY looking like a winner. 

Who wants to come to Erie for a couple hours of listening ?


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## billnchristy (Feb 12, 2008)

You buy, I'll fly.  Of course I would only come for the bar as I said I would never do one again.


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## emac (Feb 13, 2008)

craigsub said:


> Maybe we will end up with three. In terms of pricing, the Nuforce will be more money than the "Gizmo-2" ... which will be a 36 (8 ohms) to 50 (4 Ohms) amp... and will include remote, Toslink, Coax, USB, and subwoofer outs.
> 
> It would be interesting to hear how $129 Gizmo compares to $249 Nuforce.
> 
> ...


I'd come up if I'm free that weekend. When were you thinking of?


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## laserman (Jun 9, 2006)

craigsub said:


> ...
> Who wants to come to Erie for a couple hours of listening ?



Me, me, me...I want to be there if I'm free that weekend too. I can transport a pair of AV123 x-ls classics (slightly moded), Swan D2.1 SE, or Rothchilde's (I have to ask Kenny).

If I get invited, I will bring a home-made something for folks to munch on too. :kissass:


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

laserman said:


> Me, me, me...I want to be there if I'm free that weekend too. I can transport a pair of AV123 x-ls classics (slightly moded), Swan D2.1 SE, or Rothchilde's (I have to ask Kenny).
> 
> If I get invited, I will bring a home-made something for folks to munch on too. :kissass:


I will come depending on the timing. I can get real busy in the warm months with all the relaxing I need to do.


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## 1BionicEar (Apr 14, 2008)

+1 for including the Nuforce Icon. Mine should be arriving today. I would consider letting you borrow it if you don't already have access to one.


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## dweeke (Oct 30, 2006)

1BionicEar said:


> +1 for including the Nuforce Icon. Mine should be arriving today. I would consider letting you borrow it if you don't already have access to one.


Cool, I'm looking forward to your impressions of the Nuforce. You seem to have more experience with these lower power amps than anyone else around here.


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## bobbyg1983 (Apr 13, 2008)

craigsub said:


> Maybe we will end up with three. In terms of pricing, the Nuforce will be more money than the "Gizmo-2" ... which will be a 36 (8 ohms) to 50 (4 Ohms) amp... and will include remote, Toslink, Coax, USB, and subwoofer outs.
> 
> It would be interesting to hear how $129 Gizmo compares to $249 Nuforce.
> 
> ...


Yeah... the Gizmo-2 is going to be a KILLER piece, I have no doubt. But the nuforce is still a pretty cool little guy (and I also like that it has a pretty competent headphone amp, which for my application makes it appealing, and I can see people in the market for say "$250 and under" that might be willing to consider Nuforce vs. Gizmo and/or Gizmo-2, depending on the overall sound quality. I suspect that the Gizmo will deliver and we'll have a real champion of price/performance on our hands, but I know that there is a lot of interest surrounding these little guys and it would be fun to get the nuforce in there for comparison's sake.

Very cool.


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## Larry D (Feb 12, 2008)

Is there a reason you're not including the KingRex. It has consistently beaten the Trends in the reviews that I've read.


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## dweeke (Oct 30, 2006)

I think the big issue is trying to find other amps in the same class, and there really isn't any. The Trends is the absolute closest in price, and it is still $30 more expensive. Kingrex jumps up to $120 higher, as does the Nuforce. The Poppulse is the closest in power but weighs in at $95 above the Gizmo. It's hard to decide where to draw the line. Somebody could throw in a $129 Sherwood receiver from Circuit City to keep things honest, but the number of amps keeps rising...


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## droht (Sep 15, 2008)

I'm not suggesting adding more amps to this, but I'd be really curious to see someone do a strict comparison with the tripaths and Gizmo to something that is like 10X the price. You guys in ATL already know how tough it is to find some difference within this "family". I expect similar results from Craig's shootout.

Maybe Craig is already planning to sneak his McIntosh gear into this, just to see if anyone has a clue.


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## CloudStrife (Mar 6, 2008)

Go Pop Pulse! This'll save me the pressure of writing a "real" review when I get mine.


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## billnchristy (Feb 12, 2008)

> Is there a reason you're not including the KingRex. It has consistently beaten the Trends in the reviews that I've read.


I talked to Craig about the Kingrex and told him that the amp is a non-issue without the PSU. Unfortunately, with it, the price rises to $389 which is way out of the price league. Stock also costs more than a modded trends.


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## auge.dog (Feb 13, 2008)

If either the weekend of 21 or 28 June, I would definately try to make it. Of course, golf would have to be part of the agenda.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

The weekend of the 28th of June could be good. 

We have laserman, Emac, Ray3 and Auge.dog ... 

I know Ray golfs ... how about laserman and Emac ?


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## laserman (Jun 9, 2006)

The 28th works for me. I'm not a golfer so if someone else is and you want to limit participation to four, then you can put me on the standby list or let me drive the cart. Then again, you have never seen how I drive my automobiles, have you? LOL

Lou


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## CloudStrife (Mar 6, 2008)

How can you not be a golfer? You basically take a stroll on a nicely cut lawn while soaking up the sun, sipping on a drink, and you hit a ball with a stick every now and then. Who doesn't like that? I would say most people are golfers even if they don't play golf. :huge:


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

I will be out if it is the 28th. I have to go to a wedding, but the good news is it is not my own!


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## Rijax (Jul 20, 2006)

I'd like to come to, if I may. :scratchchin:


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

I am pretty sure it will be June 14 - the following 2 weeks are "bad". 

We have Laserman, Emac, Ray3, Ajax, M-Fine, and Auge.dog volunteering.

As Ray3 is going to work here, and Ajax is an AV123 Amabassador, they get in the back of the line. 

Let me see about putting this together so 6 guys can participate. Four is absolutely doable.


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## auge.dog (Feb 13, 2008)

Rats, I can't do the 14th of June. Well, I could, but I would not get there until late evening. If things were to occur on the 15th, I would happily particpate.


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## CloudStrife (Mar 6, 2008)

Audio-magus said my Pop Pulse should be in-stock early next week. :applause: All I have to compare it to is my XR57 though.


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## emac (Feb 13, 2008)

The 14th should work for me. My wife may not be happy, but, oh well.


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## laserman (Jun 9, 2006)

Craig,

The 14th is doable for us.





CloudStrife said:


> How can you not be a golfer? You basically take a stroll on a nicely cut lawn while soaking up the sun, sipping on a drink, and you hit a ball with a stick every now and then. Who doesn't like that? I would say most people are golfers even if they don't play golf. :huge:


The strolling, soaking, and sipping are not the issue...it's hitting that little dimpled G** **** white ball that ruins the outing for me. I attempted to play a couple of times and don't have the patience for it.

The last time I tried seriously to "get into it" was while attending Graduate School. My fellow roommates were serious about the game and offered to provide free lessons. I am left-handed and have a wicked shank to the right. After a few rounds of me constantly in the woods, they didn’t volunteer anymore. However, the last time we went out I decided I would break all the rules and have some fun. I used a slingshot to go down the fairway and get onto the green. I’m not a bad putter (love playing miniature golf) and my overall score was pretty good. You should have seen the other golfers faces when I would walk by with a putter (Big something or other) and a slingshot hanging out of my back pocket. Yeah, some of the members wanted to get me kicked off the course but my friends went to bat for me and told them I was safer using the slingshot. :yes:


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## Rijax (Jul 20, 2006)

CloudStrife said:


> How can you not be a golfer? You basically take a stroll on a nicely cut lawn while soaking up the sun, sipping on a drink, and you hit a ball with a stick every now and then. Who doesn't like that? I would say most people are golfers even if they don't play golf. :huge:


 "_Relax? How can anybody relax and play golf? You have to grip the club, don't you?_" - Ben Hogan

"_I guess there is nothing that will get your mind off everything like golf. I have never been depressed enough to take up the game, but they say you get so sore at yourself you forget to hate your enemies_." - Will Rogers

"_Give me golf clubs, fresh air and a beautiful partner, and you can keep the clubs and the fresh air._" Jack Benny


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## laserman (Jun 9, 2006)

Ajax, those are great quotes.

Now here's an old joke with a twist for this thread. :biglaugh: 

A 6 year old and a 4 year old are upstairs in their bedroom.
"You know what?" says the 6 year old.
"I think it's about time we started cussing."

The 4 year old nods his head in approval.

The 6 year old continues, "When we go downstairs for breakfast,
I'm gonna say something with hell and you say something with ***." 
The 4 year old agrees with enthusiasm.

When their mother walks into the kitchen and asks the 6 year old
what he wants to do after eating breakfast, he replies,
"Aw, hell, Mom, I guess I'll play some golf."

WHACK! He flies out of his chair, tumbles across the kitchen floor,
gets up, and runs upstairs crying his eyes out,
with his mother in hot pursuit, slapping his rear with every step.
His mom locks him in his room and shouts,
"You can stay there until I let you out!"

She then comes back downstairs,
looks at the 4 year old and asks with a stern voice,
"And what do YOU want to do after you eat breakfast, young man?"

Looking at her with fright - I don't know, he blubbers,
"but you can bet your fat *** it won't be golf!"

:biglaugh: :biglaugh:


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## auge.dog (Feb 13, 2008)

Hits home as I have a 6 year old and a 4 year old. Those quotes actually sound like something that they might say.


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

When my daughter was 4 I spilled something in the kitchen and she warned me "Don't say Oh **** dady!"


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## monkeypimp (Sep 11, 2006)

So if you take the models in the Poll and the Nuforce and Gizmo....where do all of you think the rankings will end? I would put them like this:

1) Pop Pulse

2) Trends 10.1 Value mod
3) Trends Mini Mod
4) Trends5
5) Gizmo
6) Nuforce

ANd I have no reason to put them in this order as I have only heard the Gizmo at the Chicago GTG...but the pop pulse has the onboard transformer so it makes me think it will win..but other than that it is all based on reviews I have read and from forum talk. 

But when you add in value the Gizmo might be the best deal. It has looks, price and sounds ******** great!!!


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## CloudStrife (Mar 6, 2008)

Monkeypimp said:


> So if you take the models in the Poll and the Nuforce and Gizmo....where do all of you think the rankings will end? I would put them like this:
> 
> 1) Pop Pulse
> 2) Gizmo
> ...


What is this based on? Hope you're right though.


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## monkeypimp (Sep 11, 2006)

CloudStrife said:


> What is this based on?


i edited my original post


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## Ray3 (Feb 4, 2008)

CloudStrife said:


> How can you not be a golfer? You basically take a stroll on a nicely cut lawn while soaking up the sun, sipping on a drink, and you hit a ball with a stick every now and then. Who doesn't like that? I would say most people are golfers even if they don't play golf. :huge:


I truly love the game and all of its trappings. A game that can never be mastered. Equal parts being with good friends for a few hours, spending those hours in beautiful surroundings and the act of actually playing. And let's NOT forget the 19th hole. 

I do understand those that get frustrated with trying to play. Perhaps the title of an excellent book about golf and the pursuit of a few specific pros in chasing a win at the Masters says it best I believe it is a Mark Twain quote as well). - _"Golf. A Good Walk Spoiled."_


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

*Houston, we have a problem ...*

Hi guys, my lovely wife has pointed out to me that every weekend from Memorial Day through the end of July has some event occuring. 

We then leave for vacation.

This shootout may have to take place in early fall ... :fryingpan:

Yes, that's me hitting myself on the head.


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## billnchristy (Feb 12, 2008)

If you wanna send me detailed info on how to do it plus all the gear I could get it done before then.

Seems kind of silly to wait until the product is long on the market (hopefully!) and the comparisons will probably have been made already.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Bill - The first step in running one of these type of tests is identifying what you want to accomplish. Let's make this an open discussion in this regard. :yes:

If you were going to have this shootout at your place, who would be invited, and what would the stated goal be ?


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## CloudStrife (Mar 6, 2008)

craigsub said:


> Bill - The first step in running one of these type of tests is identifying what you want to accomplish. Let's make this an open discussion in this regard. :yes:
> 
> If you were going to have this shootout at your place, who would be invited, and what would the stated goal be ?


Wouldn't the goal be to determine which amp sounds the best by using blind tests to eliminate biases?


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## ddoonie (Mar 28, 2008)

Goal could also be, if there are any significant differences in sound characteristics among the chosen amps. Test setup would be similar, but questions would be different, thus requiring the need to specify goal of the test...


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

CloudStrife said:


> Wouldn't the goal be to determine which amp sounds the best by using blind tests to eliminate biases?


That is one possible goal. Another is to find out if people can consistently hear differences in the amps when they don't know which is playing.

Yet another goal: Is the group involved truly TRYING to eliminate biases ?

During the 2 blind tests which were also GTG's, I had to stop several people from trying to "cheat" by looking at the gear. 

I know for certain that one person who was at our place is still angry that I would not "clue him in". He ended up selecting stuff which he said was inferior to his stuff. 

I am using "stuff" on purpose, by the way, so that I don't accidentally point out who this person is. :goodvibes:


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## billnchristy (Feb 12, 2008)

I would put out an open invite to anyone in the area who wanted to play. I would try to get enough to not be involved in the judging as well.

The goal is a good question, it really depends on what the people want if you ask me...


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

CloudStrife said:


> Wouldn't the goal be to determine which amp sounds the best by using blind tests to eliminate biases?


It is not that simple. What speakers? What listening distance? What volume level? Sub or no sub? What type of music? CD, mp3 or other? What DAC/devices upstream? 

What does best mean? Do you just want to test to see if you can even tell the difference? Do you want each person to pick a favorite? Do you want to rate them based on a number of factors? What factors?


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## billnchristy (Feb 12, 2008)

Really the goal should be which is suitable for a budget 2ch system and the answer is all of them because I know (minus the pop pulse) that they all have a certain degree of very good sound quality...well, actually I have not heard the Gizmo either, but several people said it sounded pretty good and most of the time at a GTG if something is no good they either dont say anything or say "I didnt get enough time to get an impression"...yeah, that means its bad.


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## CloudStrife (Mar 6, 2008)

Right. They're all suitable, so we want to know which is best.


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## ddoonie (Mar 28, 2008)

Trying to determine which is best is very subjective. I think a goal of determining if there is any significant differences in sound quality would be an adequate goal. Many conclusions can be derived from such a hypothesis. ie. $100 amp has no discernable sound quality differences from a $235 amp. But again, these are only my thoughts...


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

You are still totally missing the important point of under what conditions.

If you are setting up a budget system for your basement game room where you plan to power a pair of 86db sensitive large bookshelf speakers to an average of 85-95db, is it at all relevant that there was no discernable difference between the amps when played on 92 db sensitive desktop speakers at an average level of 75 db and a listening distance of .5 meters?

The speakers the amp is driving, the volume level and the distance will have a tremendous impact on what amp is "best" or if you can even tell the difference. What music, including the quality of the source is important as well. For the test to give useful, relevant results, it needs to accurately represent the way you intend to use the product in all of the important factors. If you browse the Gizmo threads you will find quite a variety of intended uses for this neat little bugger, so if we are going to test it we are not going to be able to test all scenarios.


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## billnchristy (Feb 12, 2008)

Maybe it should be a combination blind and "clinical" test.

We know that the Pop-Pulse and Gizmo should KILL a trends or super-t for max output...but shouldn't we know an approx. max level we can attain? I doth believe so.

Maybe they should also be set up in multiple scenarios as well...

I don't know the answer but just asking 3 guys to guess which he likes the best doesnt seem like it will accomplish much.


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## ddoonie (Mar 28, 2008)

m-fine said:


> You are still totally missing the important point of under what conditions.
> 
> If you are setting up a budget system for your basement game room where you plan to power a pair of 86db sensitive large bookshelf speakers to an average of 85-95db, is it at all relevant that there was no discernable difference between the amps when played on 92 db sensitive desktop speakers at an average level of 75 db and a listening distance of .5 meters?
> 
> The speakers the amp is driving, the volume level and the distance will have a tremendous impact on what amp is "best" or if you can even tell the difference. What music, including the quality of the source is important as well. For the test to give useful, relevant results, it needs to accurately represent the way you intend to use the product in all of the important factors. If you browse the Gizmo threads you will find quite a variety of intended uses for this neat little bugger, so if we are going to test it we are not going to be able to test all scenarios.


I was typing a long response, but said forget it.. If this was directed at me, i think you may be assuming quite a bit. I just stated a GENERAL hypothesis from which, as a community, can be narrowed down to a specific one (ie. given the highest common denominator of all amps using this as the limiting factor during testing, at a seating position of 1m, volumes in 3 levels, fed by a blah blah blah...) One could not test for all possible situations, if there is a budget or a time constraint. But you can say, within the test parameters we found no discernible difference in sound quality from a to b. People can accept or reject these findings, and do what they want with them. There will always be people disagreeing with the testing procedures, and to them i say do your own test...



But alas, i know nothing so i will stay out of this discussion.


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

There is no such thing as "best" until the purpose has been well defined. Whats the best used car? A geo metro, a mustang or a chevy pickup? Well, what is important to you, milieage, turning it into a custom drag racer, or hauling lawn maintenance equipment? 

If you see the discussion in the amps 101 the thread, the problem is by tweaking the parameters of the test I can all but insure the outcome I want. If the test is to see if you can tell the difference, I can design a test where you can not. I can also design a test where it is easy to tell. 

You just want to know which one sounds best? I could set it up with a pair of Ref-1's with a 3.5 ohm impedance and select the material seating distance and volume level such that the Gizmo does not clip but most of the others do. You might scream that is no fair, but if someone is really going to use 3.5 ohm speakers at those volume levels it would most certainly be a fair test and an important one at that. 

A LOT of people don't want to do too much research or learn all the details themselves which is fine, in the end the hobby is about listening to music. OTOH, they still want to know "what is best" either in a ranking or a simple price for performance number or an easy to compare spec. It just doesn't work that way for amps, subs, speakers or just about anything in audio. You would not go into your grocery store and ask the produce clerk which is the best vegtable, or which one is maximizes your bang for the buck. You need to have a good idea of the intended use before you make any attempt to select which vegie or which amp or which sub is going to be "best".


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

As is pretty easy to understand from reading the responses here, deciding how to construct a blind test is not a simple task.

I know some people got irritated with me for some comments I made about T-amps - and amps in general - earlier in some threads here, including this one.

Since the late 70's, 30 years ago, I have taken and/or set up 100's of blind tests. It does require a lot of preparation, and also thought, to do one properly. 

So ... perhaps everyone will indulge me while I lay out what I think the hypothesis of this test should be, and how to set about proving - or disproving it. 

The hypothesis: When operating within their rated output specifications, Some amps sound better than others. Many listeners claim to hear an immediate difference when switching from one amp to another. 

The test: We will take a small panel of listeners and no more than 4 amps. These amps will be level matched to within 0.1 dB using a 1000 Hz sinewave. The panel of listeners will get to listen to each amplifier for a period of 2 minutes each, and will then vote on the sound quality of each amp.

This will be repeated, with the amps being played in a random order each time, for a total of 10 rounds of 4 x 2 minutes.

Speakers will be a pair of high quality bookshelf speakers of reasonable efficiency. 

Sound pressure levels will be set to make sure none of the amps clips during the 10 rounds. 

If the listener cannot hear a difference, he has 2 choices, guess - and hope he doesn't get "caught", which will be unlikely, given the odds over a preiod of this many trials.

Or - he will vote each amp the same.

If the listener DOES hear a difference, it will be consistent over the 10 trial periods. 

Ok guys - that is my take on this. Please, feel free to chime in ... :thumbsup:


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

So, 

How should the Gizmo be tested?

A test that is just 2 chanel, with easy to drive speakers and volumes intentionally held below the smallest amps clipping might seem to be a good choice. BUT, such a test ignores the Gizmo's sub out feature. It ignores the Gizmos 4 ohm capability. It ignores the Gizmo's 25 watts or the benefits of offloading bass duties to a powered sub. 

Hmmm, how about we test a couple of pickup trucks by driving them off road. Since most of the test trucks are two wheel drive, we will leave the 4wd truck or trucks in their 2h mode to keep things fair. Sounds silly doesn't it? But then again, if you always drive on paved roads doesn't it sound silly to be testing the trucks offroad to give the 4wd versions an advantage?

In the end, I think the limited load 2 chanel "test" probably will be the least controversial and maybe we can get an idea if within their limits all of the amps sound generally if not completely the same. 

You could then increase the load or SPL until you can hear the differences and maybe define those points. I think a 2.1 comparison with the amps that can be used with a sub, either with a sub out or the subs high level inputs would be even more usefull to many people, and if some of the amps can not be used with subs in either manner, it should be noted in the results since that could be a huge factor to a potential buyer. That is now 4 tests. Within their limits, pushed to the limits in 2.0 and within the limits and pushed to the limits 2.1.


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

craigsub said:


> The hypothesis: When operating within their rated output specifications, Some amps sound better than others. Many listeners claim to hear an immediate difference when switching from one amp to another.


I think the better and easier way to test this is to ask people to listen to a pair of amps and vote same or different. If the theory is they sound "different" directly test that.

Pick just two amps for each run and either play AA AB BA or BB. You could then track how many times people think they hear a difference when there is none or can not hear one when there is. 

To make the ordering random I would have the switcher flip two coins to set the amps for each trial. Heads is A tails is B, the nickle is the first amp played, the quarter the second.

Given the low wattage of these amps I would select fairly efficient speakers and quality recordings but with limited dynamic range (peaks) so the average volume levels are relatively high to make it easy for a group setting to hear.


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## ddoonie (Mar 28, 2008)

mfine, again, i dont know if you are referring to me, but did not state better in my post, so i am unsure...

Craig i think that is a more than acceptable test...

mfine, this test does ignore the sub out etc... BUT it does compare to the sound quality up to the limitations of the smallest amp. To me this is the point of THIS particular test. is there a significant difference in sound quality at the specified spl level of all the amps, and (presumably tested at lower spl's as well). You can have a disclaimer that this does not test anything in excess of this spl level... 

regarding the 4wd analogy, i think it is fair to test it in 2wd, as long as you state you are testing its 2wd capabilities over it's 4wd. You are outlining the limitations of the actual test.

Testing say the geo vs ferrari, which drives better from 0-40mph, is quite significant. There is quite a diff between the two, even though you limit it to the capabilities of the geo, it still provides significant data, ie. city driving. One has better handling at this speed, the ferrari is difficult to drive at this speed due to having to keep the revs in the upper band. etc...


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## droht (Sep 15, 2008)

I think Craig outlines a perfectly valid blind test but to me the results won't matter much at all because I don't listen that way. I like the direction Bill seems to be leaning. Give the amps a test drive in various conditions. 

Nearfield computer-desk kind of set up seems very appropriate, with moderate volume, as would a larger room to simulate someone using in bedroom or maybe as primary two channel, where you'd certainly want to push the SPL. 

I'd probably want to swap two different speakers into the test, something relatively efficient (88+dB) and something below 85dB, that is maybe considered harder to drive relative to impedance curve.

I'd like a few types of music to be evaluated - classical/orchestral, jazz w/female vocal, and some hard rock cover it for me. Maybe more or different genres are more approprioate?

The feedback I'd want is more commentary and less "amp A beats amp B". Try to explain what you hear in each scenario. Tell me what stood out, both good and bad. If a specific difference was significant then tell me, but don't try to force yourself to hear differences that are negligible.

I'm not asking or suggesting that this work be done. It would be very time consuming, although I imagine a lot more fun than a double blind. If something like it was put together, however, I think it would give potential customers a lot more info than is easily put together today. And they'd be able to logically pick a product for their intended use. Knowing that Gizmo and Trends can't be easily discerned by four guys listening to a bunch of two minutes samples won't help me know what to buy or why to buy it.


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

ddoonie said:


> mfine, again, i dont know if you are referring to me, but did not state better in my post, so i am unsure...


If you do not want to test which one is best, then I am not refering to you am I? But, much if what I said was meant as food for thought for everyone. 

My biggest fear is that if a test is conducted, the results will be used by potential buyers for whom the test is completely irrelevant. The next fear is the crowd of forum trolls it will attract. Picture a splash of blood and the nasty people from "I am Legend". That movie had the most realistic depiction of Grandarf and company yet to come out of Hollywood and they will be all over whatever we do.


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## ddoonie (Mar 28, 2008)

But it would help me with my choice. Lets say that i wanted to buy the trends ta-10, which has a max output of 15w (or whatever it is) at $150, this test shows that at the max output of the trends amp, the gizmo has no discernible difference in sound quality, has an additional 10w, a subout, and is 129. 

So to me this test made my decision easy. I got all the trends had to offer with additional power, an optional sub out, and at a cheaper price...

ps. thanks for the clarification mfine, didnt really warrant the attitude, but whatever...


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## CloudStrife (Mar 6, 2008)

Isn't the blind aspect necessary? If I want/expect the Gizmo etc. to sound "better", then I might subconsciously have a bias towards it.

I don't see the big to-do about a test. Put the amps on some measureable and equal playing field, and turn your back to them while someone else does the switching. And why would anyone criticize the results? If they think there was something left out, they can do their own comparison.


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

ddoonie said:


> So to me this test made my decision easy. I got all the trends had to offer with additional power, an optional sub out, and at a cheaper price...


Ahh, but it is not that easy since none of the amps come with power meters. If in your normal listening you will have peaks that push past the rated limits, how each one handles the peaks could be the most important feature and it is not tested.

Lets say you will often get peaks that require 30-35 watts. Perhaps the Gizmo clips hard at 25 watts and makes harsh and painful noises. The trends may softly clip the peaks, reducing their levels but not adding any harsh distortion. Or maybe one of them behaves like a tube amp and adds even order harmonics that sound somewhat warm and pleasant (in some peoples opinions). Is the Gizmo still the better deal?


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## ddoonie (Mar 28, 2008)

I know one test will not satisfy everyone's questions, but acts as an indicator. In this situation it is still a better deal, as i sit .5m from my 87db (sensitivity) speakers rarely exceeding 90dbspl. 

I understand what you are saying, but you can do that for ANY test that could ever be conducted. You can find a limitation with any test. The only way to bypass these limitations is with an unlimited budget, unlimited time for testing etc... 

I am in no way saying these tests will lead to the ultimate amp rating guide. But to me it gives me information i find relevant, and is much more beneficial to lack of info. I dont think any of the test participants will be going public saying gizmo is better than this amp blah blah, i think they will let the test results speak for themselves, allowing you to derive your own opinion on the tests. I know to take tests with a grain of salt, such as statistics. Statistics are taken with goals in mind, BUT they can provide helpful information as long as you review the testing parameters.


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

ddoonie said:


> I know one test will not satisfy everyone's questions, but acts as an indicator. In this situation it is still a better deal, as i sit .5m from my 87db (sensitivity) speakers rarely exceeding 90dbspl.


So if we conduct a nearfield, within rated limits test you will be satisfied, and if a lot of other potential buyers are looking to similar use (that is how mine will be used as well) that would be a good test to conduct. But, we have now defined the parameters of usage to base the test. That is an important first step.



> I am in no way saying these tests will lead to the ultimate amp rating guide.


For every person like you who plans to look at the results and think about what it means for their buying decision, I bet there are 10 more who will say amp XX won or they couldn't tell any difference, and apply it blindly to a totally different scenario. 

I expect that Craig is correct. It is VERY hard if not impossible to tell the difference between amps kept well within their limits. Where I may differ from Craig (I really don't know his opinion) is I think many many people push their equipment beyond the limits much more often than they think. When people get a new amp from Emotiva or Outlaw and hook it up to their receivers pre-outs and post about a clear improvement in sound, is it placeebo, does the new amp simply sound better, or were they exceeding the capabilities of ther receivers amp stage and the new amp is more capable. I think it is a healthy mix of 1 and 3. I also think when amps are asked to exceed their limits they do so in ways that sound very different from each other.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Here is what I see as the issue. People are constantly talking about how amps have better soundstaging, how they noticed an immediate improvement when getting a new amp, etc ... etc ... etc ...

If this is the case, a short trial should be fine.


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

craigsub said:


> Here is what I see as the issue. People are constantly talking about how amps have better soundstaging, how they noticed an immediate improvement when getting a new amp, etc ... etc ... etc ...
> 
> If this is the case, a short trial should be fine.


Why can't we put together an "air meter" and just take measurments on how airy the sound is from amp X compaired to amp Y? We could also use it to test cable treatments, cable risers and clocks.


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

craigsub said:


> People are constantly talking about how amps have better soundstaging, how they noticed an immediate improvement when getting a new amp, etc ... etc ... etc ...


How about a low volume (in the limits) test of the Gizmo, one of the trends and your McIntosh? Clearly the Mc has capabilities the cheap little guys do not, but does it image better, have better soundstaging or depth, or have more air? OOOOOOHHHHH I almost forgot my favorite, toe tapping.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

I am not proposing this to be some form of "proof" that all amps are identical, but rather that the differences, if any, are VERY slight.

Let's take "Joe", who claims that he knows amp "A" is FAR superior to amp "B". He swapped the amps, and there was a HUGE difference. That is, of course, when he could see the amps. 

Under blind tests, and with 100 trials, Joe only picks "A" 50 out of 100 times.

Joe may think differently later ...

Here are some possible outcomes of doing this type of test:

1. The panel consistently picks a particular amp as the best. That would be pretty rare, and thus pretty compelling. 

2. The panel cannot discern between the amps. We could then reasonably state that paying more attention to speakers, placement and possibly the room makes more sense, true ?


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## ddoonie (Mar 28, 2008)

m-fine said:


> For every person like you who plans to look at the results and think about what it means for their buying decision, I bet there are 10 more who will say amp XX won or they couldn't tell any difference, and apply it blindly to a totally different scenario.


With this i wholeheartedly agree. I know this to be very true. People using these tests/statistics as fact, but not knowing the underlying nature of these tests. Reminds me of Da Vinci's code. How Dan Brown based his whole book using another book as a reference, stating how it was all factual. Then the author of the underlying book came out to the public stating that his own work was fiction 

I am willing to wager though that the majority of people buying amps such as the trend, and gizmo, have a higher probability (than the general public) of knowing how to keep these amps within their limits. Reason i draw this conclusion is that, how many people in the general public would believe you can run a 300w speaker off 15 watts, :nervous: Does it mean people wont push it past their limits, of course not. So in this, mfine, i do completely agree (regarding how they respond to being pushed beyond their limits).


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## ddoonie (Mar 28, 2008)

craigsub said:


> I am not proposing this to be some form of "proof" that all amps are identical, but rather that the differences, if any, are VERY slight.


This is what i agree with completely. This is the goal of the test in my eyes, not which is better etc...


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

When one picking the moderator for these type of tests, one should also look at the motive of that person. 

What is ideal is someone who thinks the amps will all sound the same. That person will take every step possible to ensure they are level matched, and that no visible cues are given to the panel.

When we were kids, my mother made the best apple pie. We had a rule about the dividing of her apple pie: The person doing the cutting got the last choice. 

You can imagine how carefully the cutter operated.

Same thing here - if someone "knows" amps are different, then that person is more likely to favor "his" amp choice.


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## BradJudy (Feb 12, 2008)

Wow - this thread took off today, lots of good discussion. 

FWIW, I found the website for one of the guys doing the RMAF amplifier demo - http://www.cordellaudio.com It also has some information on amp measurement, although they haven't added info to a lot of the sections of the site.


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## auge.dog (Feb 13, 2008)

Whatever form the shootout takes - there needs to be a before and after component to it. Before the 6-pack, we could hear . . . After the 6-pack, we could hear . . .


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## CloudStrife (Mar 6, 2008)

auge.dog said:


> Whatever form the shootout takes - there needs to be a before and after component to it. Before the 6-pack, we could hear . . . After the 6-pack, we could hear . . .


What's with beer? Drink wine. It tastes better, is more sophisticated, and gets you there quicker.


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

Craig does not serve drinks by the 6 pack. It would go more like;

Before the 2 magnums of Ketel 1, and fifth of Jack we could hear....

After the uh...uh...I forgot what it was we drank, we cranked some music no one remembers until the cops showed up and it gets real fuzzy from there.


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

CloudStrife said:


> What's with beer? Drink wine. It tastes better, is more sophisticated, and gets you there quicker.



Whats with wine? Drink vodka. It tastes like water, is more concentrated, has less extra calories and gets you there quicker.

I do like a good bottle of wine, but getting drunk on Lafites and Moutons will make too big of a dent in the audio budget.


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## CloudStrife (Mar 6, 2008)

m-fine said:


> Whats with wine? Drink vodka. It tastes like water, is more concentrated, has less extra calories and gets you there quicker.
> 
> I do like a good bottle of wine, but getting drunk on Lafites and Moutons will make too big of a dent in the audio budget.


You can make wine. My grandfather has been making it for as long as I can remember. It sweet, but it's all usually around 20% alc. He can't figure out why it turns out so high.


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## imported_m-fine (Mar 15, 2008)

You can make an alcoholic grape beverage at home, but to make wine worth enjoying takes most new wineries decades to learn. Actually very few ever get it right, hence the reason the good bottles cost so **** much.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

CloudStrife said:


> You can make wine. My grandfather has been making it for as long as I can remember. It sweet, but it's all usually around 20% alc. He can't figure out why it turns out so high.


Maybe he puts vodka in it ? :thumbsup:


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## Cujobob (Feb 12, 2008)

craigsub said:


> I am not proposing this to be some form of "proof" that all amps are identical, but rather that the differences, if any, are VERY slight. Let's take "Joe", who claims that he knows amp "A" is FAR superior to amp "B". He swapped the amps, and there was a HUGE difference. That is, of course, when he could see the amps. Under blind tests, and with 100 trials, Joe only picks "A" 50 out of 100 times. Joe may think differently later ... Here are some possible outcomes of doing this type of test: 1. The panel consistently picks a particular amp as the best. That would be pretty rare, and thus pretty compelling. 2. The panel cannot discern between the amps. We could then reasonably state that paying more attention to speakers, placement and possibly the room makes more sense, true ?


 If a person is not used to a system and with personal tastes playing a role, it would be rather difficult to get an answer which tells you anything at all other than if an amp stood out as far superior.


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## konman43 (Dec 11, 2008)

so.... did this shootout uhh... ever happen? I'm on the fence about what little amp to get for my Klipsch B2's I got on clearance. T-amp or Gizmo. I want to get the gizmo, but would like to see it up against the T-amp first. (I also own a pair of elt525m's that might become 5.0 soon).


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

konman43 said:


> so.... did this shootout uhh... ever happen? I'm on the fence about what little amp to get for my Klipsch B2's I got on clearance. T-amp or Gizmo. I want to get the gizmo, but would like to see it up against the T-amp first. (I also own a pair of elt525m's that might become 5.0 soon).


We did some listening with the $149 Sonic Impact "Super-T". The Gizmo delivered 100 dB peaks on a pair of Dana 630's with no audible distortion, while the Super-T could hit 96 dB.

Other than that, there was no difference in sound quality. 

Adding a subwoofer to a small pair of speakers brings brings Gizmo to a superior product, as it turns the system into a full range AND takes a lot of load off the smaller speakers.

So ... more power, more flexibility, and a lower price for Gizmo.

:huge:


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## mojave (Dec 30, 2006)

I have the original Sonic Impact T-Amp with a modded switch mode power supply. I also purchased the Gizmo. I use ELT525M speakers. The main thing I noticed about the Gizmo is that it is more dynamic. This is probably due to its increased power and higher maximum clean output.

I did not swap back and forth since the T-Amp has those cheesy little speaker wire clips that only hold about 2/3 of the strands of 14 gauge speaker cable.


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## Putz (Jan 28, 2009)

craigsub said:


> We did some listening with the $149 Sonic Impact "Super-T". The Gizmo delivered 100 dB peaks on a pair of Dana 630's with no audible distortion, while the Super-T could hit 96 dB.
> 
> Other than that, there was no difference in sound quality.
> 
> ...


Getting a pair of RS450s in my Rocket Package that I will be using in a 2 channel setup. Will Gizmo power those sufficiently and is there a Phono Preamp built in?


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Putz said:


> Getting a pair of RS450s in my Rocket Package that I will be using in a 2 channel setup. Will Gizmo power those sufficiently and is there a Phono Preamp built in?


There is no phono pre-amp built in to Gizmo. You also won't be taking advantage of Gizmo's Crossover ... so while Gizmo will actually sound pretty good driving the 450's to decent levels, it is not the ideal solution.


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## Putz (Jan 28, 2009)

craigsub said:


> There is no phono pre-amp built in to Gizmo. You also won't be taking advantage of Gizmo's Crossover ... so while Gizmo will actually sound pretty good driving the 450's to decent levels, it is not the ideal solution.


Plan B is my old Hafler Preamp and SAE 2400L (Its a monster) coming out of mothballs. Guess I'll give that a try and see how it goes. But it would be nice to have something sleek & small to do the same job. Anything you'd recommend?


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Putz said:


> Plan B is my old Hafler Preamp and SAE 2400L (Its a monster) coming out of mothballs. Guess I'll give that a try and see how it goes. But it would be nice to have something sleek & small to do the same job. Anything you'd recommend?


I used to have the SAE ... Yours is the model with the LED's across the front, yes ? 200 WPC and bulletproof. 

We are planning on a more powerful amp, but when that will happen is anyone's guess. We need to button down the initial line up first.

I would drop a line to Wally at www.underwoodhifi.com and ask for a price on something like the NAD C315BEE integrated amp. The only down side, still no phono input.


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## Putz (Jan 28, 2009)

craigsub said:


> I used to have the SAE ... Yours is the model with the LED's across the front, yes ? 200 WPC and bulletproof.
> 
> We are planning on a more powerful amp, but when that will happen is anyone's guess. We need to button down the initial line up first.
> 
> I would drop a line to Wally at www.underwoodhifi.com and ask for a price on something like the NAD C315BEE integrated amp. The only down side, still no phono input.


Yes: LEDs, rackmountable and a Hernia just waiting to happen... i wish I had bought the wood side panels for it way back when.

I guess i could look for a used Receiver with a Phono stage for cheap on ebay/Craigslist.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Putz said:


> Yes: LEDs, rackmountable and a Hernia just waiting to happen... i wish I had bought the wood side panels for it way back when.
> 
> I guess i could look for a used Receiver with a Phono stage for cheap on ebay/Craigslist.


If you want some pure magic, grab an old refurbished Marantz (70's vintage) receiver from eBay ... 

Vintage Marantz Receiver page on eBay


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## Putz (Jan 28, 2009)

craigsub said:


> If you want some pure magic, grab an old refurbished Marantz (70's vintage) receiver from eBay ...
> 
> Vintage Marantz Receiver page on eBay


So another trip down to the basement netted me a Sansui AU-5500 Int Amp. Bought it new in early 70's. Haven't listened to it in years. Hooked up some speakers and a CD player and its working OK. Balance and Volume a little scratchy when adjusting but fine otherwise. And shockingly it has a Phono input.


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