# PJ/Screen looks horrible - big time help requested...



## Sonicmojo (Feb 8, 2013)

Morning,

Well - after waiting for what seems like an eternity - I finally got my new Epson 3020 mounted and paired up with an Elite 92 inch Cinegrey screen. 

Screen went up first about 10 days ago and has issues already. As soon as we fired up the "up/down" remote - the motor started making an annoying squeaking sound...as if some "wheel" or internal that handles the dropping of the screen needs oil. This from a brand new, factory fresh screen. I am already in contact with Elite to discuss replacement. They are saying squeaks are not part of the plan at all...

Next up - the new Epson 3020 which was mounted two nights ago. I had a local resource - who seems quite knowledgeable - to help me get it mounted. We chose an excellent Peerless PRG-UNV mount and it took no time at all to get the PJ up. It is connected with a foot long "extender" to get the projector down under our bulkhead in the new media room.

Since I am a total PJ noob - my resource took over - we dropped the squeaky screen, put on Game 3 of the Stanley Cup finals in HD as a source - and he started messing with the Epson options.

Now - after reading a ton of info here on the forums - my biggest fears with this Epson was it's lack of lens shift and the compromises that have been made (mainly due to the wife) specifically to "center" the screen in such a way (right of center) as to have it "line up" with certain shelves and "decor" that are fixtures of the room. 

The PJ mount however - was lined up as close to the "center" of the feature wall as possible - but with the screen shifted right - this immediately resulted in having the PJ turned a few degree to the right (off center) and to make things worse - my guy waved his hand and said that Keystoning should take care of this with no issue. Not wanting to cause a scene - I let him do his thing - but it became clear immediately that the picture/image on screen was . This live HD broadcast looked like a 2005 DVD of the same game...

After he left - without changing anything - I farted around with a few other discs - including BluRay of things that I know to be outstanding on an ordinary LCD TV like Avatar...and it looked horribly plain, "soft" and not BR quality at all. 

Last night - my son was bugging me for a movie night - so I fired up the PJ (without touching anything from the night before) and suddenly my image is not square! The "projected" bottom left corner is about 3 inches from the bottom of the screen and the bottom right corner looks almost right. And the top left and top right corners look almost perfect.

He wanted Despicable ME (on BluRay) and again - it looked very disappointing. No color pop, no "sheen" and no real sharpness either. My son thought it was awesome of course - but I sat thru it cursing this equipment for the entire movie.

So - before I take a bat to everything AND (obviously calibration sorely needed on the Epson not withstanding) - where do I start to right this ship? After reading here about the evils of keystoning - its painfully clear to me the PJ is simply not in the right position and needs to be seriously tended to first - made level and dead centered to be displaying a perfectly square (and NON keystoned) image? Then move the screen into position after the fact? At this stage - I could care less what the wife will think of how the screen looks in relation to the cabinet beneath it.

What tools or procedures do I need to ensure my PJ is level and the image its displaying is as 90 degrees as possible with the flat of the screen? Is there a usual test pattern or calibration disc that the gang uses to shore up an image to ensure it's as square as can be?

From what I have read (and the anticipation I felt with finally getting a PJ) - I was ready to be blown away by this but right now - that could not be further from the way I feel. 

Here's hoping I can get this stuff working! I really appreciate any tips you can share.

Cheers,

Sonic.


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## bmfjimbo80 (Jan 12, 2012)

Yes the first thing is you need to have the projector square and center with the image as you will get as you mentioned the crooked screen. Its one reason I shyed away from a bunch of the DLP's as most do not offer lens shift either. Now you say the image is not soo great, disregarding the position, what kind of cable are you using linking the projector to your components? I broke one of my HDMI cables about a month ago and had to switch to just an S-video cable for a few days until I received a new one and let me tell you the picture is night and day between the two. We were watching NHL playoffs hockey and with the S-video it was almost unwatchable, picture looked very very fuzzy and not sharp it seemed. Switched back to the hdmi and Wow HD is back. Also I have read as well that you should avoid keystone corrections if you really can unless its absolutely necessary to dial in a picture that is already very close. As far as tips to getting it all aligned correctly. Its just all about measurements, making sure the lens is centered.


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## Sonicmojo (Feb 8, 2013)

bmfjimbo80 said:


> Now you say the image is not soo great, disregarding the position, what kind of cable are you using linking the projector to your components?


HDMI all the way. But - as I described - the image may as well look like I have an S-Video cable - it's that disappointing 



bmfjimbo80 said:


> As far as tips to getting it all aligned correctly. Its just all about measurements, making sure the lens is centered in the screen left to right and up and down. Not much more to it then that.


That's still my question I guess...obviously I can't get any kind of accurate measurement trying to suspend a tape measure in mid-air - so how is everyone else doing it? Laser Level? Some kind of projector pattern that I can then measure on the screen/wall to see if I am truly square?

Cheers!

Sonic


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ok I have to ask the obvious questions first. How is the image being sent to the projector? I am assuming HDMI? I would also make sure that your bluray player and receiver are sending 1080p


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## Sonicmojo (Feb 8, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> Ok I have to ask the obvious questions first. How is the image being sent to the projector? I am assuming HDMI? I would also make sure that your bluray player and receiver are sending 1080p


HDMI/1080p all the way. 

BluRay: Oppo BDP-83 to Pioneer Elite VSX-23THX to HDMI 2 Out (Pioneer) to the PJ.

But TV looks like too - Pace 758D to Pio Elite (HDMI 2 Out) to PJ..

And I need to be clear that the image I am seeing via either source looks out of focus and "softened" significantly. I have done everything possible with the focus ring etc to ensure it's as sharp as I can make it out of the PJ itself.

But should I not be seeing clean clear (and very sharp focused) HD quality out of this projector/screen combo?

Sonic.


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## bmfjimbo80 (Jan 12, 2012)

I've never mounted a projector with no lens shift but yes I'm assuming you just use a tape measure. First thing you need to do is measure the distance from the ceiling to the top of the viewing area of your projector screen. Next thing to do is measure the total height of your mount plus the extra distance to the center of the projector lens. After these calculations you are then supposed to mount the projector so that the center of projector lens is level with the top of the projector screen. I do believe there may be some offset dimension you may have to account for as well but like I said I've never actually done it so I never looked into it that far. If your screen height cannot be changed and the distances are not working, I believe you will have to shorten or lengthen the mount with the addition or subtraction of different mounting poles. Someone chime in and correct me if I'm wrong here. Also like Tony said make sure you are projecting 1080 as 720 is horrible on screens this large if you are sitting close.

Just seen your above post. Yes you should most certainly be seeing one awesome picture on your screen. You could shoot it at a white primered wall and still see an awesome picture. I'm thinking its most likely your offset image.


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## Sonicmojo (Feb 8, 2013)

bmfjimbo80 said:


> I've never mounted a projector with no lens shift but yes I'm assuming you just use a tape measure. First thing you need to do is measure the distance from the ceiling to the top of the viewing area of your projector screen. Next thing to do is measure the total height of your mount plus the extra distance to the center of the projector lens. After these calculations you are then supposed to mount the projector so that the center of projector lens is level with the top of the projector screen. I do believe there may be some offset dimension you may have to account for as well but like I said I've never actually done it so I never looked into it that far.


Makes sense - from ceiling to the top of the start of "grey area" of my Elite screen (when fully dropped) is exactly 13 inches. But with the PJ - I see now that the total height from ceiling to center of lens = 21 inches. So we have a problem already. Seems my "guy" - but running with a 14 inch drop pipe - has injected at least 8 inches of "upward tilt" into the mix - which cannot be a good thing. 

I can see that the projector is tilted upward when I stand on the couch and look at it.



bmfjimbo80 said:


> If your screen height cannot be changed and the distances are not working, I believe you will have to shorten or lengthen the mount with the addition or subtraction of different mounting poles. Someone chime in and correct me if I'm wrong here. Also like Tony said make sure you are projecting 1080 as 720 is horrible on screens this large if you are sitting close.


Looks like I need a much shorter mounting pipe to even start to get me into the right area here....

Sonic.


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## bmfjimbo80 (Jan 12, 2012)

Yes sir thats where I would start. Of course its not going to be perfectly exact, which is what the fine tuning up/down of the mount is for. how far off from left to right are you from shooting at the center of the screen? Will the entire mount or screen itself have to be removed and remounted? Also before I see you mentioned using a laser light for alignment which would probably work real good if you had it centered over the screen and and it could shoot the beam perpendicular away from the screen wall along the ceiling. Do they make something like that? hehe


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ok, just to eliminate any other possibilities, run the HDMI cable directly from the Bluray player to the projector and see if that changes anything.


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## Sonicmojo (Feb 8, 2013)

bmfjimbo80 said:


> Of course its not going to be perfectly exact, which is what the fine tuning up/down of the mount is for.


My resource has a 6 inch mount coming in shortly.



bmfjimbo80 said:


> How far off from left to right are you from shooting at the center of the screen? Will the entire mount or screen itself have to be removed and remounted?


Well - given the immediate 8 inch height difference between screen area and current PJ lens location - the PJ is projecting "upward" which I believe is instantly going to compromise the quality of the image. My guys says today's modern projectors should be able to handle this "offset"...but I am completely skeptical that any projector can overcome an 8 inch height difference with no ill effects and I told him so. Hence the immediate change out to a smaller extension.

Then - even tho I am just "eyeballing" it - I can see the PJ is probably "aimed" say 2-4 degrees to the right from center. 

This is easily fixed and will be the first thing I do after I totally square up the projector first. Then I can slide the screen (on it's ceiling mounts) to be exactly in line with the "true" projector center.

And no - the mount point of the projector is fixed. We won't be drilling holes all over the place. That mount will stay where it is. I will do my best to get the projector perfectly level and square and then move the screen into "position". Hopefully this makes the difference I am expecting to see....



tonyvdb said:


> Ok, just to eliminate any other possibilities, run the HDMI cable directly from the Bluray player to the projector and see if that changes anything.


Tried that last night - no change whatsoever. I believe what I am getting here is a substandard image due to poor PJ position and the bloody thing not being square at all. Plus all the horrendous key-stoning that was dialed in.

Q: For those of you that do have your systems all dialed in - does the image you see on your screen meet (or exceed) that of what you would see if playing the same BluRay on your LCD TV? 

Please note that this specific look and detail of an HD quality source is all my eyes have ever known - I want to be really sure that my expectations are not totally skewed by this historical "expectation". 

I suppose that first jarring image of the hockey game the other night took the wind out of my sails. I alwasy understood that live sports in HD was supposed to be to die for. But when I compared what was coming out of the Epson to what was coming from my two bit Samsung LCD - the difference was unbelievable. The Epson looked like it was showing a game from 1990 whilst the Sammy was good enough to reach out and touch.

Is it more realistic to just expect less (or a lot less) from a brand new HD capable projector?

Cheers!

Sonic.


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## bmfjimbo80 (Jan 12, 2012)

Keep us posted on how things turn out. Its also recommended that you do not use keystoning if you can avoid it. Just like i mentioned earlier to dial it in that minute amount to make things perfect or as close to perfect as you can get them.


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## Sonicmojo (Feb 8, 2013)

bmfjimbo80 said:


> Keep us posted on how things turn out. Its also recommended that you do not use keystoning if you can avoid it. Just like i mentioned earlier to dial it in that minute amount to make things perfect or as close to perfect as you can get them.


Will do.

Sonic.


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## Sonicmojo (Feb 8, 2013)

bmfjimbo80 said:


> Keep us posted on how things turn out. Its also recommended that you do not use keystoning if you can avoid it. Just like i mentioned earlier to dial it in that minute amount to make things perfect or as close to perfect as you can get them.


I am back!

So after a long frustrating month dealing with a very poorly mounted 3020 - I finally took delivery on a much better suited extension column for my Peerless UNV mount and moved my screen into a proper plain with the projector.

As noted - the start of the my viewable screen area is exactly 13 inches from the ceiling while the lens center of the Epson now sits at around 15 inches - so I am still "out" by an "ideal" 2 inches.

That done - I reset the Epson to factory standard and spent yesterday afternoon "squaring" everything up. I was finally able to project a perfectly square image on my Elite Screens 92 inch (cinegray) without having to adjust anything but a tiny bit of pitch and yaw. Then I spent about and hour viewing many different sources...

Overall - from where I was (4 weeks ago) to now - it's like night and day. I haven't even started to calibrate but the projector is already looking fab...but my real question is the clarity and sharpness of the image onscreen. I tested with the Spears and Munsil and several very well done BluRay sources and I am still unsure if what I am seeing is what I should be seeing or have I got one of those 3020s with "focus" issues.

Again - given that my only true baseline of what an HD image should look like (to my eyes) is my TVs - but what exactly should my end result be? Should the sharpness (using HD source) be equal to or better than a BR displayed on my Samsung TV? Should it be "different" but still excellent simply due to the technology in play?

One thing I did yesterday was put up several blurays of well done animated movies like Despicable Me or Puss N Boots - and while the overall picture is getting there (I haven't calibrated at all yet) - something is still eating me about the sharpness that I keep thinking I should be seeing...

Anyone else feel the same? Anything that I should be doing - but am not - to ensure I have the best sharpness settings (and yes - I have moved the focus ring)

I just want to make sure I haven't got one of the lemon 3020s that had focus issues (what exactly were those "issues"?) and if so - I want to get Epson on the case quickly.

Cheers!

VP


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## Sonicmojo (Feb 8, 2013)

Thought I would update this thread with the latest findings. Turns out I do have a lemon. The sharpness issues occur when this particualr model is turned upside down - for ceiling mounting.

Epson has sent 2 different replacements and a third is coming today. The first batch all exhibit the same issue - they work fine when placed "upright" on a table - focus is razor sharp. But as soon as we mount it - the focus goes bad.

I have changed cables, power cables - everything that I could think of and now it's down to physical orientation. 

Will report back when the 3rd replacement arrives later this aft.

Cheers,

Sonic.


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## bmfjimbo80 (Jan 12, 2012)

Too bad about the defective units but at least you are moving in the right direction and getting close to monster screen goodness


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Chief sells shifting projector mounts so you can fine tune the lateral projector position. The vertical is simple to measure (off the ceiling). 

Have you looked at projector central to find your optimum throw distance (too far you lose contrast, too close you may get "hot spots")

Next question what's your screen gain and how bright is the room you're viewing in?

Screens are the most under appreciated part of theaters. I'm a big fan if SI screens' Black Diamond. You do have to be cautious of hot spots but the colors really can pop.


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