# Atmos/ DTS-x, really worth the upgrade?



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ok, so with Atmos and DTS-x becoming more common is it really worth the upgrade at home?
Ok let me clarify, I am not taking going from a so so system to a full upgrade including new speakers all around Im saying for someone who already has a great system just no overhead Atmos speakers. Is it really worth getting a new receiver that supports it?

Ive been to only one Atmos movie in the theater and it was underwhelming. I still enjoy movies at home much more.


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## albe (Nov 25, 2015)

Like you, I go to the movies and say "Can't wait to hear this at home..." That being said you should audition an intimate Dolby Atmos setup. When I heard it at an audio show (In a hotel room with all the furniture removed)
It sounded SO much better than a theater. I was really able to look at a point in the room where I thought that sound was coming from.
If you have the right room and the budget, I recommend it.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

For you the difference will be subtle, but still worth the effort in my opinion.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

At this point in the technologies evolution I'm not even thinking about it. I'm not a version 1.0 guy because I've often encountered frustrating issues. I wait for the first update myself. If you have a nice system that you really like it may not be worth starting over again until there's a compelling reason to do so. Like available media for example, of which there's little at the moment.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Tony - I've had very ho-hum Atmos experiences at commercial cinemas... But at home, wow, what an impactful technology. It's fantastic and completely worth the upgrade, IMO. It adds a dimension to sound that is like nothing we've ever had access to in the home - I can almost guarantee that if you heard the first 20 minutes of Gravity (diamond luxe ed), you'd be sold. The key is getting the configuration right. A few months ago I wrote a piece about Atmos that included recommendation/comments from THX testers. Of course, their advice might have its own holes, I'm sure, but they have quite a bit of testing data to make their advice worth paying attention to...Which is basically a full 7.1 multichannel system with two top front and two top middle ceiling channels for height. 

I can dig up a link when I get home. 

On a side note... As great as Atmos sounds, I heard an Auro 3D demo at CEDIA that was mind blowing. IMO, it was more impressive than the best Atmos I've heard. I wish A-3D had more traction in our hemisphere...they are trying to lay inroads, but battling Dolby and DTS on their own turf is tough.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Oh lovely, another BETA versus VHS battle? In that one the inferior platform - VHS - won out. Let's hope this one goes our way.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ok, so I guess when I do some renovations to the theater (soon) I will add the speakers so Im at least ready for it when I upgrade the receiver. Im just happy with the Onkyo 805 and my current speaker setup/room that its hard to imagine better except maybe another sub. :spend:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

theJman said:


> Oh lovely, another BETA versus VHS battle? In that one the inferior platform - VHS - won out.


Agree, lets hope cassette tapes dont make a great comeback like some are saying.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

theJman said:


> Oh lovely, another BETA versus VHS battle? In that one the inferior platform - VHS - won out. Let's hope this one goes our way.


Could be... Both require different speaker configurations. The good news is that DTS-X "supposedly" will work with any speaker configuration. Of course, DTS-X is vaporware at this point...

Definitely wire speakers... Or at least run wires for likely speaker locations... Will make your life waaaay easier down the road ;-)


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

I'm a man who could care less what my "theater" looks like... I'm all about performance. You will see wires... diffusion panels... etc.. all over my room.

Right now... atmos and the other stuff is on the back burner... I will upgrade when 100% of the movies released contain these audio tracks... till then who knows what will stick and/or dominate. Obviously they are not going anywhere because they are major players in the audio world for these tracks but it's not matured enough yet....

but when they do... I will run some PVC along the wall up the ceiling and run some cabling through it and mount the speaker anywhere I wish to because you just simply cannot predict which spot will sound the best... I may paint the pvc the same color as the walls but i'm not going to let asthetics take place of performance. I've seen some fancy home theaters that were all oooooohhhhhh and aaaaaahhhhhh but sounded very poor... ppfff who cares.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Here you go, Tony

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...27721-dolby-atmos-update-impressions-thx.html


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Thanks, that is good info :T


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

The big thing you get moving to atmos is that you'll be using object oriented sound. It's a much closer translation to the original cinema score.

Atmos is going to be a thing because it will reduce turn time for disc releases; because less mixes have to be made. 

My impression installing atmos has been mixed. The reflected atmos systems don't give the impression of space that the addition of ceiling/hight channels do. That said it does still raise the level of immersion.


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## EricZimmerman (Oct 9, 2015)

rab-byte said:


> The big thing you get moving to atmos is that you'll be using object oriented sound. It's a much closer translation to the original cinema score.
> 
> Atmos is going to be a thing because it will reduce turn time for disc releases; because less mixes have to be made.
> 
> My impression installing atmos has been mixed. The reflected atmos systems don't give the impression of space that the addition of ceiling/hight channels do. That said it does still raise the level of immersion.


This is exactly what I experienced going from a very good JBL speaker based Denon 7.1 system to a very good Klipsch speaker Yamaha Atmos 9.1 system. The difference is subtle during stock 5.1 and 7.1 but definitely more immersive while viewing Atmos material. Upgradeing from a 50 inch Panasonic to a new LG 60" UF7700 seems to help in that respect also.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Hope you have a magnifying glass to go with that screen size.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Tony,

You are asking the right question but I thing it is too soon. Atmos is king now but that might not be the case tomorrow. I would wait and see which tech wins out or choose the one that will work best in your room. 
Auro 3D or DTS-X might work better in your room as you just can add height speakers with one ceiling speakers.

I'm willing to bring over some of my Mission speakers to try out for the rear but you might have a little bit of trouble matching the front LCR.

In the long run I would hate to setup a Atmos system today only to have DTS-X take over tomorrow.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

true, I think I would simply mount some good speakers in the ceiling above the seating and whatever format wins the speakers should do the job. I may hold off upgrading the receiver till some time next fall as by then hopefully something more clear will be in place.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> Oh lovely, another BETA versus VHS battle? In that one the inferior platform - VHS - won out. Let's hope this one goes our way.





tonyvdb said:


> Agree, lets hope cassette tapes dont make a great comeback like some are saying.



Glad to see I'm in good company. Thought I was the odd-man-out in that regard.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

My fear for auro 3D is that by the time it gets any traction, atmos and DTS-X will be the status quo, and there won't be room for it, and most people won't want to hear about "another" surround sound thingy. Tony, I would think it worth the upgrade, and almost a no brainier if you don't have to move a mountain to do it. My space has 12 can lights and 2 AC vents, in a vaulted ceiling. Can't quite get my wife to believe that I need to add 2 or 4 more speakers up there! I haven't heard a real demo yet, but the core tracks have proven very good for imaging and placement. Someday... 


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## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

I am digging Atmos, but not digging at repurchasing "atmos" blurays movies to replace my blus I already got. Talk about getting pinched twice!


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Picture_Shooter said:


> I am digging Atmos, but not digging at repurchasing "atmos" blurays movies to replace my blus I already got. Talk about getting pinched twice!


I have a felling we will not see a lot of re-releases of Bluray's with Atmos or DTS-X as Bluray sales are low already and UHD bluray just about to come out.



willis7469 said:


> My fear for auro 3D is that by the time it gets any traction, atmos and DTS-X will be the status quo, and there won't be room for it, and most people won't want to hear about "another" surround sound thingy. Tony, I would think it worth the upgrade, and almost a no brainier if you don't have to move a mountain to do it.


I can't see Auro 3D winning this Battle or even placing 2nd.



tonyvdb said:


> true, I think I would simply mount some good speakers in the ceiling above the seating and whatever format wins the speakers should do the job. I may hold off upgrading the receiver till some time next fall as by then hopefully something more clear will be in place.


As far as I know DTS-X does not put speakers in the ceiling and Auro 3D only has One. Funny how a object based sound process has 3 very different setups.

DTS-X









Auro 3D









Atmos


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## albe (Nov 25, 2015)

theJman said:


> Oh lovely, another BETA versus VHS battle? In that one the inferior platform - VHS - won out. Let's hope this one goes our way.


We all know why VHS won? Simply...Disney, for whatever reason said, that's the format we are going with.

Cassette's? Not so much...but I do have a NEW Sealed Elvis 8-Track...I do, I really do :whistling:


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

DTS is saying that :X will work with any kind of speaker array... Which is why it should pair nicely with folks using Atmos with ceiling channels. Auro 3D, on the other hand, pretty much has one VOG speaker, but doesn't need to have any (especially for rooms with lower ceilings).

What we really need is DTS to officially hit the market.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

albe said:


> We all know why VHS won? Simply...Disney, for whatever reason said, that's the format we are going with.


Yup totally off topic but...
actually no that's not why, Sony refused to licence and allow other manufacturers to make Bata machines. Once they realized they had to if they wanted to gain market share it was far too late. I owned a few Disney movies that were on Bata tapes. JVC licensed VHS right out of the gate and gained ground fast overtaking Bata.
Bata was a better format because the tape media moved past the drum heads faster so the quality was higher. The tape transport design was also much superior. VHS had a maximum 240 lines of resolution, Bata had 300. The studios used a form of Bata for years that had 525 after it was no longer sold on a consumer level.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program LOL


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Blacklightning said:


> Funny how a object based sound process has 3 very different setups.





Todd Anderson said:


> DTS is saying that :X will work with any kind of speaker array... Which is why it should pair nicely with folks using Atmos with ceiling channels. Auro 3D, on the other hand, pretty much has one VOG speaker, but doesn't need to have any (especially for rooms with lower ceilings).


Yes, of course DTS is going to say that.

But the real question is, Why do we need to have any setup config at all??? If this is really object based, all we need to do is tell the AVR where our speakers are and the rest is processed. You should be able to place speakers wherever you want.


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

Personally, I plan to wait until the smoke clears and the dust settles. It's possible all these formats will survive in some form, but I'm holding on to my cash until there's significantly more movies encoded with these formats to take the plunge.

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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Looking at the Atmos diagram it seems the "recommended" layout is 4 speakers? I'm trying to understand how the ones located in the ceiling near the screen are beneficial?


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Looking at the Atmos diagram it seems the "recommended" layout is 4 speakers? I'm trying to understand how the ones located in the ceiling near the screen are beneficial?


All of the real setups I have seen are all close to the LP for in-ceiling.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

You have three possible ceiling placements:

Top rear, top middle, top front.

The rear and front positions are placed somewhere around what would be a 45-deg angle from MLP. So, depending on how big your room is, this could be near the screen or quite far from the screen. Top middle is directly over head.


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## Skylinestar (Oct 19, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Agree, lets hope cassette tapes dont make a great comeback like some are saying.


When was the last time you clean the cassette reader head with alcohol?


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## EricZimmerman (Oct 9, 2015)

Talley said:


> Hope you have a magnifying glass to go with that screen size.


60 inches is plenty big for now! :sn:


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

EricZimmerman said:


> 60 inches is plenty big for now! :sn:


 Nothing to be ashamed about with 60".


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## Spanglo (Jul 20, 2012)

Upgraded in Oct 2014 from a 7.1 system to 7.1.4, and I'll never go back to traditional surround sound. Very much worth the upgrade IMO. 

The atmos mixes are nice, some are fantastic, and it's nice to play them back as intended. I've also become a fan of DSU, which I now apply to all content.

I had been enjoying the tech in the theaters since 2012, so I was chomping at the bit for the residential version and jumped in as soon as possible.


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## thecrowe (Jan 21, 2016)

rim upgrading my system next month


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

I just dipped my toes in the water and picked up a Marantz 7702MKII which is supposed to have DTS-X next month. 

I first tried a 5.2.2 system with the front ceiling speakers situated about 4 feet in front of my MLP and close to the sides. Using Mirage OMD5 bookshelves turned upside down and mounted on ceiling brackets. The only Atmos BD I have right now is San Andreas and have only watched a few clips, plan on watching it this weekend. With just the front heights it wasn't all that great, just ok. I then decided to pick up 4 8ft 2 x 4's and construct some quick 7.5' stands to mount my other set of OMD5's about 2 feet behind the MLP for a 5.2.4 set-up and this sounds a LOT better. It even improved music listening when engaging DSU, impressive. 

I am really waiting to hear what DTS-X has to offer and that is when I will decide if permanent ceiling speakers will be worth the upgrade.

I have to admit that my Sherwood with Trinnov still have a better soundstage 7702MKII though. Playing back the gatling gun scene from The Book of Eli with Trinnov the sound wraps around you and is so much more convincing than with the 7702MKII.

Want to add the back surrounds as well but only have 1 free amp channel, will a 6.2.4 system work or does it have to be 2 back surrounds?

Besides San Andreas is there any other Atmos BD's anyone can recommend to get the best demo from the new format?


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

Gravity and Everest are two good ones. DSU is also reputed to greatly enhance the sense of space with 7.1 also.

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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

vidiot33 said:


> Gravity and Everest are two good ones. DSU is also reputed to greatly enhance the sense of space with 7.1 also.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using HTShack


I just put both of those in my wishlist, making sure to get the Diamond Luxe edition of Gravity.

With the Marantz I have noticed it only offers DSU with stereo and TrueHD tracks but the option to pick it is not there with DTS-HD tracks. Anyone know if there is a way to engage DSU with DTS-HD tracks? Now that I think about it can I just have my BD player convert the DTS-HD track to LPCM to trick the Marantz into using DSU?


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

sub_crazy said:


> I just put both of those in my wishlist, making sure to get the Diamond Luxe edition of Gravity. With the Marantz I have noticed it only offers DSU with stereo and TrueHD tracks but the option to pick it is not there with DTS-HD tracks. Anyone know if there is a way to engage DSU with DTS-HD tracks? Now that I think about it can I just have my BD player convert the DTS-HD track to LPCM to trick the Marantz into using DSU?


 I believe you're going to need to wait for the introduction of DTS:X for this. Atmos uses a Dolby TruHD bitstream to extract Atmos.

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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

sub_crazy said:


> With the Marantz I have noticed it only offers DSU with stereo and TrueHD tracks but the option to pick it is not there with DTS-HD tracks. Anyone know if there is a way to engage DSU with DTS-HD tracks? Now that I think about it can I just have my BD player convert the DTS-HD track to LPCM to trick the Marantz into using DSU?


The Denon/Marantz 2015 models had this limitation. Whether it was by mistake or intentional, the firmware doesn't allow them to apply DSU to DTS-HDMA tracks. Some have speculated that the intent was for people to use only the upmixer that should come along with the DTS:X firmware upgrade to upmix DTS-HDMA. Note that all other manufacturers of Atmos receivers do not have this limitation.

Fortunately, as you point out, the solution is to send PCM instead of bitstream from your player when you want to apply DSU to these tracks.


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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

I'm coming a little late to this discussion, but have read all the posts now. Regarding Auro, it seems to me that it is dead in the water, at least in the US. Since its big introduction at CEDIA 2014 (and I heard their demo there which was indeed fantastic), not a single movie has been released in the format for the home. And there were only one or two at the time to begin with! Also, the only sub-$10k receivers/pre-pros that support it are the Denon-Marantz units (and you have to pay an additional $200 to get the Auro firmware - it can't do it out of the box).

Whereas Atmos has a few dozen titles now, and plenty more announced. And with the release of UHD pending, the rate of release of Atmos titles will likely increase.

I don't think there's going to be a "format war" (in the traditional sense, like Beta vs VHS or Blu-ray vs HD DVD) with DTS:X and Atmos, any more than there was a format war between Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HDMA. True, DTS-HDMA dominated with blu rays, but any receiver or player that could process one could also process the other. From the consumer's point of view, it didn't matter, and I suspect that's what will happen with DTS:X and Atmos.


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

bkeeler10 said:


> I'm coming a little late to this discussion, but have read all the posts now. Regarding Auro, it seems to me that it is dead in the water, at least in the US. Since its big introduction at CEDIA 2014 (and I heard their demo there which was indeed fantastic), not a single movie has been released in the format for the home. And there were only one or two at the time to begin with! Also, the only sub-$10k receivers/pre-pros that support it are the Denon-Marantz units (and you have to pay an additional $200 to get the Auro firmware - it can't do it out of the box). Whereas Atmos has a few dozen titles now, and plenty more announced. And with the release of UHD pending, the rate of release of Atmos titles will likely increase. I don't think there's going to be a "format war" (in the traditional sense, like Beta vs VHS or Blu-ray vs HD DVD) with DTS:X and Atmos, any more than there was a format war between Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HDMA. True, DTS-HDMA dominated with blu rays, but any receiver or player that could process one could also process the other. From the consumer's point of view, it didn't matter, and I suspect that's what will happen with DTS:X and Atmos.


 Yes, Atmos is winning the format war to this point. As you mentioned, Auro isn't even a serious contender (except in Europe). It appears Atmos and DTS:X will co-exist and appear to be generally compatible with each other in terms of speaker configuration, though DTS:X is late to the game and has some catching up to do.

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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Ok, so I guess when I do some renovations to the theater (soon) I will add the speakers so Im at least ready for it when I upgrade the receiver. Im just happy with the Onkyo 805 and my current speaker setup/room that its hard to imagine better except maybe another sub. :spend:


Ive set up only one Atmos system so far that I thought was a worthwhile investment.. It did include some very expensive DALI speakers and 2 Sunfire HRS12's for a 7.2.4 Atmos config...with a Marantz 7009 avr.
The other systems with entry level speakers was much less satisfying sonics...
That said, in my opinion your money will be much better spent on a Dirac Live processor / integrated with your current setup, its a superior room correction device for less money than adding a new Atmos receiver and atmos speakers...


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

RTS100x5 said:


> That said, in my opinion your money will be much better spent on a Dirac Live processor / integrated with your current setup, its a superior room correction device for less money than adding a new Atmos receiver and atmos speakers...


You have not heard Tony's system! His system is dialed in pretty well even with a miss match of LCR vs rear speakers.

I still think DTS-X needs to become more main stream as Atmos seems to have rigid placements for an object based process. DTS does say that Atmos placement will work but if you end up with DTS you are able to place your speakers anywhere in the room.


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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

Blacklightning said:


> I still think DTS-X needs to become more main stream as Atmos seems to have rigid placements for an object based process. DTS does say that Atmos placement will work but if you end up with DTS you are able to place your speakers anywhere in the room.


Be careful with your assumptions there. The Atmos system is capable of rendering to a variety of layouts (the spec allows for up to 24 floor locations and 10 ceiling or "height" locations), just as DTS:X claims to be. The issue is that no processor out there short of $20k+ supports that potential. 

I expect that the same will apply for the initial run of DTS:X. Just like Atmos is currently implemented, you will likely be able to choose from among a small handful of layouts or speaker positions.

Regardless, at least until object audio becomes ubiquitous, you're going to want your standard 7 channels to conform to the current standards so that you can properly play non-immersive audio tracks. So the only significant flexibility you would have anyway would be on the ceiling/height channels.


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## HomeTheater1010 (Apr 6, 2011)

Just got the Denon AVR-X7200WA and living on DTS-X 11.2 ..... Think better then Atmos but every hear and room is different but DTS-X is better !


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## witchdoctor (Feb 21, 2016)

HomeTheater1010 said:


> Just got the Denon AVR-X7200WA and living on DTS-X 11.2 ..... Think better then Atmos but every hear and room is different but DTS-X is better !


Congrats! What type of speakers and layout are you using?


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## witchdoctor (Feb 21, 2016)

_Want to add the back surrounds as well but only have 1 free amp channel, will a 6.2.4 system work or does it have to be 2 back surrounds?_

According to Thomas Holman of THX fame who is now with Audyssey it is better to use one rear speaker directly behind you. He says your barin can't really process sounds behind you as nearly as well as it can from the front channels. I use just one surround back channel using the same speaker as my L-R channels and believe he is right.

How do you like the Mirage speakers as height channels?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

A single rear channel was just fine back in the day of Dolby pro logic surround sound but now that dedicated channel mixes are the norm and 7.1 movie soundtracks are very common if your room is large enough a single rear speaker or simply 5.1 speakers is not enough if you want the full enveloping sound. I don't know about you but I sure can hear a pan from left to right behind my head.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

+Tony. 


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## bigdogaxis (Dec 1, 2013)

My concern is Atmos and DTS:X mixes will be on UHD discs rather than BR requiring a new player. I am not ready to upgrade and add speakers & equipment. 

Also, I should have waited to convert my DVD collection to VUDU UHD as VUDU will not have an "upgrade" option - repurchase only. 

I will stick with 9.2 PLIIz and buy UHD/BR double packs going forward. Perhaps another year of patience will pay off.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

The advantage to atmos, beyond more channels, is how sound is handled. Since its object oriented different room configurations can play the sound from a more appropriate channel. It also significantly reduces post release dvd production time.


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

I just recently went to 11.2 sound using Yamaha's proprietary Cinema DSP HD3 technology (Aventage RX-A3020). I currently have no desire to go Atmos now that I've heard what the HD3 tech does!!! I had a DSP-1 in the late 80's early 90's - I loved that processor but it lacked a center channel - this one has everything I need and creates a very immersive atmosphere  !!!! 

Once tweaked - it has some of the best surround modes since Fosgate Audionics model 3A 70mm mode! It will handle 192khz/24bit on all channels and modes so it works great with Jriver. Yes Atmos and others have actual object based surround, but for me HD3 is immersive enough indeed. When I can follow the crow from "Brave" from my surround rear left, over my left shoulder go slightly to my right and settle at my center channel in one smooth pan.....that's good enough (let alone the quiet outdoors scenes)!!!!


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