# New to the Shack and DIY....Need some help



## jwh7399 (Feb 17, 2008)

I've been thinking of building some speakers for quite a while, but I don't know where to begin. The first pair would be for listening to music. I'm not really concerned about deep bass as I would hopefully follow this project with a DIY sub of some kind.

I was looking at some buyout Alesis 6-1/2in woofers on the PE website. One of the reviews of these woofers stated that they could be used to build a nice pair of TMM speakers with Vifa tweeters.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-164

How do I determine the volume of the enclosue and type of crossover that I would need to get a relatively flat frequency response?

Perhaps I need to spend alot more time reading before undertaking such a project.?

Thank you in advance
Jon


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## bonehead848 (Jan 21, 2007)

Welcome to the Shack!

If you are really wanting to design your own speakers then yes you need to do quite a bit more reading. Crossover design is very very complicated. On the other hand there are many sites that offer proven diy projects designed by people who really know what they are doing. Check out sites like
Zaphaudio.com
http://htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39
http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/index.html

I built the BAMTM from zaph and I love them to death.


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## Geoff St. Germain (Dec 18, 2006)

In order to design a speaker from scratch, including crossovers, will require not only a lot of reading, but if you want to get a very good result it will also require modeling the crossover, measuring the drivers in the enclosures and testing and listening to your crossovers and then adjusting as required. If you want to get something built yourself more easily, then it is best to build one of the many designs that have been well documented on any of the diy speaker building websites. I'm not trying to discourage designing a speaker from scratch, but I want to relay what kind of effort it would require. With the amount of spare time I have I find it much easier and more rewarding to work with the nice designs that can be found at the HTGuide forums.


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## jwh7399 (Feb 17, 2008)

Thank you both very much. I will definitely take your advice. Those BAMTM speakers from Zaph look like a great place to start. I'de like to try something that isn't too complex for my first attempt at DIY and those should fit the bill quite well.

I looked for the Seas tweeters that the plans call for and can't seem to locate them. Is there another tweeter that I could use that has similar specs?

I'm also thinking about building a sealed sub. This is for music only and I was wondering how you guys felt about the Torrent Mistral 12 DVC driver for $89? Is this a pretty good bang for the buck?


Again, thank you very much!
Jon


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## Geoff St. Germain (Dec 18, 2006)

Madisound has the tweeters:

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=795

The Torrent Mistral is the TC Sounds DB500. Great bang for the buck.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

Apparently the Torrent Mistral 12 DVC is the same sub as the TC Sounds DB-500 so for $90 it's a great value. There is a ported application using this sub in the database, I'm not sure how this sub models in a sealed design.


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## jwh7399 (Feb 17, 2008)

Thanks guys! I'll be ordering those tweeters later today!

I'll try asking about the sealed sub idea on the DIY Sub forum and see if anyone has actually used this driver in a sealed application.

This is all very exciting. I work way too much and play way too little.

Thanks!
Jon


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## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

Just curious.

It seems to me that whenever someone asks for advice/help because they want to learn how to design speakers, or more importantly they wish to design there own speakers, the advice is nearly always to start with a "proven design". Some of my concerns with this advice is as follows, please know that I by no means am saying this is a Bad route, just not always the best.

1, Some of the "proven designs" out there aren't always that good. There seems to be some touted designs that not everyone agrees is worth the effort.

2, Assuming the "proven design" is decent, then getting the best results first time isn't exactely conducive to the average learning process (like trial and error giving an imperical understanding).

3, Just about anyone can buy/download plans and build a half decent set of speakers, unfortunately this will not help with understanding the physics behind why they sound decent.

I guess it depends on the apptitude of the person who wants to learn and what they hope to acheive from the diy route if starting with a proven design is the best option. 

anyones thoughts?


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## Geoff St. Germain (Dec 18, 2006)

drf said:


> Just curious.
> 
> It seems to me that whenever someone asks for advice/help because they want to learn how to design speakers, or more importantly they wish to design there own speakers, the advice is nearly always to start with a "proven design". Some of my concerns with this advice is as follows, please know that I by no means am saying this is a Bad route, just not always the best.
> 
> ...


Most people who come on here are looking for advice about building a pair of speakers. In this thread I didn't get the feeling that the OP was looking to learn how to design speakers, only to build them. IME a lot of people starting out who want to build speakers go to a place like the Madisound or PE website, pick out drivers that either they think look nice and fit in their budget, or drivers that are used in some commercial speaker they like and then want to simply put them into a box and use minimal effort to build a crossover or want to purchase a generic crossover to use. 

If someone wants to learn how to design speakers then I agree with you, building a proven design doesn't make sense, especially if it is something like a 3 way speaker using metal cone drivers that has a complicated crossover that has to deal with a lot of cone breakup in the metal cone woofers and mids. A two way using some paper or poly cone drivers may be a good place to start.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm not sure I totally agree.. I think starting with an estabished kit is sort of a 'gateway' drug to full DIY addiction. A kit, to me, is also a little like training wheel.. you do learn about the issues about building/designing speakers. I started with a kit. I'm currently working on an active system and I'm now beginning to think about a new design with it's own passive crossover. In other words, each project is a step in my learning curve to understanding all the various issues about designing my own speakers.

So, I can understand the reticence about going with a proven design, but I think it's really only the first step towards an addiction.

JCD


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## 1Michael (Nov 2, 2006)

I would never in good conscience suggest to a first time builder to design a speaker from scratch. I will always say to build a proven design first. Then if the bug should rear its ugly head they may want to delve deeper. I have built several kinds of speakers and have no desire to reinvent the wheel.


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## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

buggers said:


> I would never in good conscience suggest to a first time builder to design a speaker from scratch. I will always say to build a proven design first. Then if the bug should rear its ugly head they may want to delve deeper. I have built several kinds of speakers and have no desire to reinvent the wheel.


It's not about re-inventing the wheel, I have to teach people to build, fault find and problem solve in my line of work and I have found that for majority of people the best way to learn is to get their hands dirty. By this I mean trial and error methodical analsys not simply following instructions and then trying to understand why it works, but to design and re-design until you not only have something that works but the understanding to be able to repeat the results.


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## 1Michael (Nov 2, 2006)

98 percent of the people wanting to build their own speakers have no idea of the complexities involved. They just want some good sounding speakers that will save them a few bucks. Another very small percentage that think they want to design their own speakers in reality belong to the above group because they have no idea how hard it is. Some think that you can throw some drivers into a box, run a program and bam a speaker is born.
Designing a speaker from scratch Is Reinventing The Wheel because their is no one to show them ,hands on, how to do it.
Read my lips. If you want to do your first DIY speaker project, BUILD A PROVEN DESIGN FIRST!


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## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

buggers said:


> 98 percent of the people wanting to build their own speakers have no idea of the complexities involved. They just want some good sounding speakers that will save them a few bucks. Another very small percentage that think they want to design their own speakers in reality belong to the above group because they have no idea how hard it is. Some think that you can throw some drivers into a box, run a program and bam a speaker is born.
> Designing a speaker from scratch Is Reinventing The Wheel because their is no one to show them ,hands on, how to do it.
> Read my lips. If you want to do your first DIY speaker project, BUILD A PROVEN DESIGN FIRST!


No need to shout :no:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The other thing about building a DIY speaker is that you Must have not only the right tools for the job but the patience. Unless your happy with a box cut only using a table saw and a jigsaw your not even close to getting a good result if you plan to display them in a well used room. 
People forget that the reason speakers like B&W cost the money they do is because of the detail and simply the sound quality you get from them. Internal bracing is a key factor in building a proper enclosure. 
Remember that your time is also worth money and a DIY project done right takes many, many hours. Some people on here take weeks to build just one speaker. 
The satisfaction of DIY once completed is really rewarding as there are DIY speakers that turn out better than any store bought ones but this usually takes several tries and allot of money invested.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2008)

jwh7399 said:


> I've been thinking of building some speakers for quite a while, but I don't know where to begin. The first pair would be for listening to music. I'm not really concerned about deep bass as I would hopefully follow this project with a DIY sub of some kind.
> 
> I was looking at some buyout Alesis 6-1/2in woofers on the PE website. One of the reviews of these woofers stated that they could be used to build a nice pair of TMM speakers with Vifa tweeters.
> 
> ...


There is a free, and easy to use program called WinISD which can be used to give you a recommended cabinet volume.

As to "what type" of crossover you would need to give you a relavitvely flat freq. response, well, that depends a lot on the FR of the driver, which, unfortunately, Parts Express has not measured and published for us on their website. (I wish they would stop doing that, I wish they would make available freq. response files for all the drivers they sell!) So, you'll either have to "measure" the speaker or find someone else's measurement to use. I have ordered four of those drivers and hope to at least test one within a week. But, I may have to wait until after I finish some home renovation...

If a Rocket Scientist was asking me about a problem he was having with his rocket design I would reply: "hey, it's only rocket science, it's not like you're trying to design a speaker". 

I see this phrase "proven design" being tossed around in this thread without an explanation? I would say that basically all speakers that have been built so far are mediocre at best, but typically poor. So, what does that mean "proven"? 

I guess a lot of speakers make noise that's pleasant to hear and give us a vague approximation of listening to instruments. But I challenge any of you to find a speaker _at any price_ that could fool most of us into believing that, say, a real cello was playing in the room in front of us, if we listened with our eyes closed.

Having said all that... "Designing" your own speakers using diy drivers from stores like Parts Express is a lot more complicated than the "average Joe" would imagine, but, it wouldn't have to be, if the speaker designing programs weren't so gawd-awful user-unfriendly in their interface designs. I've used hundreds, maybe thousands, of different softwares, taught myself how to use most of them, but programs like Speaker Workshop, Sound Easy, and LspCAD are all sooo obtuse and give me headaches :gah:  :dizzy: :surrender: - once I figure them out, the crossover portion of the designs will be easy.

I'm guessing that those programs must be a lot easier to figure out for some people, and, if you're willing to figure them out then I say go ahead and make some of your own designs first, then, if you aren't satisfied with your own designs and don't want to pursue that avenue further, maybe try one of the designs that are popular.

Before I spent hundreds of $ on parts for an existing design to build for myself, I would like to have the chance to listen to one that's been built already. Hopefully I'll get to listen to some at some sort of diy audio event this year.

Even if you did build some speakers without measuring / simulating them; just by looking at the specs & FR graphs then maybe using something like FRD Tools FR combiner to come up with a simple crossover, you might come up with something better than a lot of the commercial speakers that are available.

There are dozens of finer details most often overlooked in most designs, you could spend months just working on designing an enclosure - I've done that. I ended up with a nice small cabinet that included: constrained layer damping, extensive precise bracing, lead sheets, roofing tar, multiple types of wood to combine materials with different resonant properties, carefully selected and placed sound absorbing materials inside, etc...

If size is not so much an issue than something like this can yield a cabinet far more "dead" than most commercial enclosures: build a double-walled cabinet with about a 1/2" - 1" space between the walls and fill with sand. When the inner wall's vibration modes are stimulated by the back wave the friction of the sand particles rubbing together as that force is channeled out will convert most of that sound energy to heat, not to mention the beneficial effect of the mass...


tonyvdb said:


> The other thing about building a DIY speaker is that you Must have not only the right tools for the job but the patience. Unless your happy with a box cut only using a table saw and a jigsaw your not even close to getting a good result if you plan to display them in a well used room.
> People forget that the reason speakers like B&W cost the money they do is because of the detail and simply the sound quality you get from them. Internal bracing is a key factor in building a proper enclosure.
> Remember that your time is also worth money and a DIY project done right takes many, many hours. Some people on here take weeks to build just one speaker.
> The satisfaction of DIY once completed is really rewarding as there are DIY speakers that turn out better than any store bought ones but this usually takes several tries and allot of money invested.


I agree mostly, but I listened to several different higher-end B&W speakers and found none of them to be pleasant enough to listen to for more than a few minutes. Perhaps something is wrong with me, but I don't like most speakers :hush: for more than several years now. I did like the Madrigal Revel Salon Ultimas I listened to about 5 years ago, and most decent speakers can do a great job at Home Theater, but for music, all so disappointing...


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