# measure through a plugin



## gorannil (Mar 30, 2013)

Dear Sirs (I will try to follow the forum rules):

I am new her. (from sweden)
Very nice software. (I will probably have some very good use for it).

*Background:*

I am (since 3 years now) building a midi-keyboard (actually my second now) and have now
come to the speaker system. It is for spinet (and harpsichord) samples.

It has only 49 keys. There is almost no fundamental frequency in the lowest keys
so the frequency range is really small:

100 - 5K (Hz)

I have done some measurements and implemented them in a plugin (so far).
I then add the plugin to the software sequencer (that plays the samples from
some computer into my keyboard).

*Questions:*

Q1:

Is it possible to add the plugin to the measurement in some way (so we can measure the result) ?

That is of course possible with an external hardware equalizer.
And also possible with pink noise and RTA.

Q2:

I have ordered a Wharferdale graphic 2x 31 x1/3 equalizer.
Can the measurement give these filters or do I have to use pink noise and RTA.
All equalizers in the settings seems to be prarametric.

Thank You
/Goran


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

First of all, welcome to Home Theater Shack, Goran! It is truly great that we can get together this way from clear around the world!



gorannil said:


> Q1:
> 
> Is it possible to add the plugin to the measurement in some way (so we can measure the result) ?
> 
> ...


Room EQ Wizard itself does not accept plug-ins. I assume you are talking about a VST plug-in.

The following can be done all on one PC, I am not sure if it will work on a Mac. Install the latest beta version of Room EQ Wizard, with ASIO support. Also install Reaper, the Digital Audio Workstation, and when you install it be sure to check the option for ReaRoute (look for the only installation options check box which is not checked by default). Reaper's ReaRoute function allows it to communicate by way of ASIO drivers with other applications in the same computer.

Reaper is available in 32 and 64-bit versions. If you intend to use the 64-bit version, install the 32-bit version first (with ReaRoute), then install the 64-bit version (also with ReaRoute). It is a quirk that the 64-bit version will only have the ReaRoute inputs and outputs available if they were installed with the 32-bit version first.

Start Reaper, then start Room VQ Wizard and in the settings, select *Drivers > ASIO* then *ASIO Device > ReaRoute ASIO*. Insert a track into your Reaper project, select proper inputs and outputs, add your VST plug-in as an effect, and you will be able to run REW's analysis on your plug-in.



> Q2:
> 
> I have ordered a Wharferdale graphic 2x 31 x1/3 equalizer.
> Can the measurement give these filters or do I have to use pink noise and RTA.
> ...


It is correct that Room EQ Wizard only gives parametric values. Two hardware equalizers that except Room EQ Wizard's filter values are the Behringer FBQ2496 Feedback Destroyer and the devices by MiniDSP.

Best of luck!


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## gorannil (Mar 30, 2013)

Ok!
I need some more HELP !!!:blink:

PLEASE !:blink:

I have now ASIO in REW Beta13 5.01
And ReRoute ASIO (after reinstalling) in Reaper.

How to configure soundcard in Rew Beta
and configure track in Reaper ???


:blink:
/Goran


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## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

Here are some information "teasers" ( the rest is up to you to research ) ;

 *Using Convolution ( a thread from the search posted below ) .*

Please read "all" the resulting threads found in  *this search for the key word "Convolution" *

Another search for  *ConvolverVST*

:sn:

PS : Something like the following "softpatch" also works quite well ( as an alternative to AudioCRavers' suggestion of running REAPER ) .

- The first pic is the opened screen window of *vstHost* .


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## gorannil (Mar 30, 2013)

It now works !!:wave:

Thank You
/Goran


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Download this Reaper Project File,
View attachment PeaperProjectForREWAnalysiss.zip
, it is ready to use. Instructions below show how I set it up. It is a zipped file.

Forgot, you also need ASIO4ALL. It won't actually be used, but Reaper will complain without it.

Install ASIO4ALL

Configure Reaper:
r-click, insert new track
click track input, input mono, ReaRoute 1
r-click track input, monitor input
click track record arm
click I/O Master, delete existing hardware output(s)
click I/O Master, add hardware output, ReaRoute 3
Ctrl-P, Audio, Device, ASIO
---------------------> ASIO4ALL v2
---------------------> request sample rate
---------------------> 48000
click track fx, r-click, insert fx, select to insert
[note: I inserted one plugin as an example]

Configure REW:
click Preferences, ASIO
------------> 48 KHz
------------> ReaRoute ASIO
------------> Output, 1 ReaRoute Client=>REAPRER 1
------------> Input, 3 ReaRoute REAPER=>CLIENT 3
------------> Timing Ref Output, REAPER 2
------------> Timing Ref Input, REAPER 4
click RTA, Controls (gear), ===> RTA 1/48 octave; 65536; Averages 8; uncheck boxes
----------> close controls
----------> record button
Generator ===> pink noise; -20.0; go (green)

In Reaper you now see track meter & master meter indicating signal.

In REW RTA you now see pink noise spectrum analysis.

All REW functions are available.


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## BlueFlowers (Sep 26, 2012)

I have made my measurements with REW and exported the filters in .wav files, so i can use them in foobar via convolver.
However I would like to rely on measurements to 'see' what they do for the sound in my room, instead of 'just' on the predicted respons from REW. 
Thus I also would like REW to play a sweep, and have that sweep corrected with my created filters, then being able to view the effect of the filters. I presume thats what the Original Poster of this thread meant to be doing as well.

Since I have been using the beta asio version of Rew without any problems I have tried the Reaper method as described by AudiocRaver first. Everything seems to go just fine, however I don't hear any sound when trying to measure in REW.

I'm using a native asio soundcard (prodigy hd2), but also installed the asio4all driver, as recommend.

Here are the screenshots of what i have been doing:

















































I have also tried the virtual audio cable method & vst host, as suggested by EarlK. This doesn't go well with me, and my system hangs from the java all the time.

Can someone offer me a little advice please?


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Here are a couple of observations & thoughts:

ReaVerb settings should be
wet +0.0
dry -infinity
These changes don't explain why you aren't getting any sound, but when you get to running measurements they will be needed for the desired results.

========

This _might_ make a difference:
The ReaVerb panel shows "Source 96000Hz... Output 48000Hz..." Anything I have done with these programs has used a single sample rate all the way through, including the REW measurements and the impulse file. Not saying that variations on that won't work, just saying I'm not sure what to expect. I even switch REW from 48 KHz to 44.1 KHz when doing final measurement that will be corrected and become an impulse file, since all my listening is with 44.1 KHz sources. Some convolution devices are great at handling impulse files with different sample rates than the signal being processed, some not. Something to take a good look at anyway.

Keeping an eye on sample rate with any DAW is important. Reaper has separate default sample rate (Ctrl-P) and project sample rate (Alt-Return) settings. Looks like you are running at 48 KHz throughout. What are the sample rate settings for your sound card and the Windows record/playback devices? A mismatch anywhere in the chain can give you dead air and no indication why.

========

It appears you can see meters moving indicating signal flow out of REW and through Reaper. One fun (NOT!) thing about setting up sound devices with a DAW in Windows - this has been true of any DAW on any windows computer I have ever worked on, and many other audio programs, including more complex configurations of foobar2000 - is that it can take several - sometimes meaning MANY - cycles through all the different setup windows before all the settings correspond and agree with each other and work together. This includes Reaper Settings, ASIO control panel within Reaper, the sound card control panel, and the Windows recording & playback device settings. Maybe a closing and reopening of all applications. And on rare occasions a reboot. And once in awhile a re-installation of a sound card driver.

Sometimes one application will have sample rate locked, not allowing another app to change it, for instance. Then you have to close all apps but the one to get the sample rate changed.

The best order to get all settings working is to go from outputs/inputs toward the applications. With all apps closed, start with the sound card settings, then the Windows settings, ASIO settings within the app, then the different app settings one at a time, then all together.

If that all sounds like a potential source of frustration and a few gray hairs and maybe a need for a "cool down" walk around the block, welcome to computer audio. Every setting might appear just right, but no sound, then close and re-open the app and it works, no explanation. Wish it were otherwise.

With Reaper (and other DAWs), pulling up the configuration panel to the audio devices/drivers settings tends to stop the audio engine, then restart it when the panel closes, a quick audio engine reset of sorts that can sometimes provide a kick start.

========

Also, when you get it all working, there will be a delay of several 10ths of a second through the ReaVerb convolution process (this is true of almost any convolution plugin, except for a few that allow the option of decreasing delay by increasing processor load), so it is best to use a slow REW sweep when it is running through convolution during measurements. This will minimize analysis error in REW. This thought doesn't apply if using pink noise and RTA mode.


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## BlueFlowers (Sep 26, 2012)

AudiocRaver,

Thank you very much for you extensive post!
I dubbelchecked everyting, and at first came up with nothing. Then mentally went round the block 

I ditched asio4all and configured Reaper the same way as I used to do with REW: directly to my prodigy soundcards' asio. 
Testsignals never sounded better to my ears 
















Unfortunately I'm only halfway. 
REW gets it's input from Reaper, and I can see the IR filter having it's effect. But it's not from the input from the measurement mic, just from the software processing in Reaper. The mic doesn't receive any input.









To put this clearer: I'm not able yet to configure Reaper to receive the test signal from the mic in on the soundcard (prodigy 3/4) and forward that to REW input 3/4.

Could you please point me to this?


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

That is great progress.

I am not quite sure I understand your configuration. Is this what you were trying to accomplish?


```
REW    -->    Reaper   ---->  sound -->  amp --> speakers --> room -->
plays            with                card
sweep           convolution       output
                    IR filtering





room   -->   mic  -->   sound  -->  REW
                               card           analyzes
                                input          sweep
```
My original instructions assumed you wanted to only measure the electronic result of the IR filtering, so Reaper's output went to REW's input. If you want to include the room in the analysis, Reaper's output will go out through the sound card and then the mic's signal can go through the sound card input directly to REW's input. REW's input settings will be set to sound card ASIO instead of Reaper's ASIO channels.

Does that help?


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## BlueFlowers (Sep 26, 2012)

Thank you for your quick response.
Your diagram perfectly describes what i am trying to do indeed.

When putting in the asio option in REW it's limited to either both inputs and outputs to reaper, or both inputs and outputs to hd2 prodigy asio.

I was hoping for reaper to be more flexible in it's routing, but can't seem to manage myself. Hopefully it can be done. 

What i do not understand is why the master i/o needs to be set to reaper 3; but whenever i change it, i get no sound anymore.

As for as i can see, reaper only needs to connect to the mic input from the soundcard. Basically the other way around from how it manages to direct the input from REW to the outputs of the soundcard, be it without the processing offcourse.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

I understand now.

Here is an updated Reaper project
View attachment PeaperProjectForREWAnalysys2.zip
that might help. It has 2 tracks, track 1 for REW's signal through VST and out, and track 2 for signal in to REW. Track 2 has to have "record armed" and "monitor input" checked.

It takes a fairly powerful computer to have all this going on at once with no glitches. You will also have to play with buffer settings in Reaper - longer gives clean throughput without glitches. I got good results with 2 x 8096 buffers using Direct Sound drivers on this laptop (internal sound card). Then REW will have to run its slowest sweep for accuracy.

Reaper is almost infinitely flexible, but unfortunately also not always very intuitive.

Also, any time you are changing settings in REW or Reaper, make sure no sound is streaming (turn the generator off).


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## BlueFlowers (Sep 26, 2012)

Yes Yes Yes !!!

Worked perfectly on the first try :bigsmile:

Thank you very much for your help, I had been thinking about this since i first started with REW last year.

I do have some more questions, but first I'm going to experiment a bit.

Thanks again AudiocRaver!


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Glad it is working for you. I use Reaper for a lot of things because it is lightweight yet powerful and flexible, but simple it is not. Looking forward to hearing about your results.


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## BlueFlowers (Sep 26, 2012)

There are so many options in Reaper, and not knowing what to do really, it's quite intimidating. Thankfully your fabricated project has simplified things immensely.

I went ahead and put in a measurement with REW. Then created a mono filter with it: 30 to 300 hz, target 75 db (+/- 4db). Since i have a massive mode at 35 hz, which is at the fundamental frequency of my long and narrow room, i also put in a house curve to basically cut off the spectrum at 40 hz. Both myself and my neighbors can do without that one note boom.

With this newly created filter fed into reaper I then measured again. Here is the comparison:








This graph makes clear that REW does an excellent job of predicting:







Only the node at 53 hz differs somewhat from the actual measurent i made with the filter enabled through reaper - this is because the suggested filter-values around 53hz were beneficial for the IR, yet detrimental to the waterfall graph. Therefore I disabled that part of the filter. I still have to reposition my subs a bit - I have a 2 channel with 2 subs setup - in the past there wasn't such a large node at 53 hz. Its also obvious how the nodes at 3-, 5- and 9 khz are reduced when the filter is active.

So far I like how this has turned out; it's really easy and fast creating a set of filters in REW, feeding them into Reaper and then measure again. However, it must be said that REW's predictions have turned out very trustworthy!
-------------

Could you please help me with some questions i still have?

- In reaper, are there more than the wet/dry settings i have to keep an eye on to keep the measurement pure? 
- What do you mean with a slow sweep in REW? A long sweep of 512 or 1mb I suppose?
- Is the housecurve incorporated into the filters i create with REW? Or do I somehow have to put the housecurve into the filter manually?
- In the REW filter .wav file export, should I enable 'normalise samples to peak value'?
- In convolver in foobar, what should I put in at: 
level adjust, auto adjust, mix adjust (i have -5 db to avoid clipping, then another -5 db in foobar preamp).

Thank you in advance for your great help!


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

BlueFlowers said:


> Could you please help me with some questions i still have?
> 
> - In reaper, are there more than the wet/dry settings i have to keep an eye on to keep the measurement pure?


That is probably the most important one. Some plugins have wet/dry sliders as part of the main control panel. Every plugin interface also has a little circular "% wet" control in the upper-right-hand corner that defaults to 100% wet and acts like a "% bypass" for that plugin. It is normally left 100% wet.

There is also the mini routing matrix for each plugin, labeled "2-in 2-out" for most plugin types. Its default is also what you want for most applications. Right now you are using mono filtering in Reaper. If you ever consider stereo filtering in Reaper, depending on the plugins you use, you might need separate tracks for L and R filtering - then the plugin routing matrix becomes more useful.

The "Master/parent send" checkbox on the I/O routing panel is important. Note that on the project you are using it is checked on track 1 so input goes to master out, but on track 2 is not checked as output goes to a separate "hardware send," not to master out.



> - What do you mean with a slow sweep in REW? A long sweep of 512 or 1mb I suppose?


I am guessing here. There is a substantial delay introduced by the convolution processing. REW is equipped to handle and compensate for quite a bit of delay without disruption, but I am not sure what its limits are for doing so. I have assumed that longer sweep times would be better with longer delays, but I should probably ask JohnM about that one of these days.



> - Is the housecurve incorporated into the filters i create with REW? Or do I somehow have to put the housecurve into the filter manually?


The house curve would be taken into account in the exported convolution filtering impulse.



> - In the REW filter .wav file export, should I enable 'normalise samples to peak value'?


Yes, to maximize signal/noise ratio. There may be good reasons not to some times - different filters for different channels, preserve the relative gains, something like that - but for your work so far, yes.



> - In convolver in foobar, what should I put in at:
> level adjust, auto adjust, mix adjust (i have -5 db to avoid clipping, then another -5 db in foobar preamp).


I stay away from "auto level adjust" type options because I am never quite sure what they are going to do. Unfortunately, optimum gain through any filter is a little hard to determine. It looks like your filter is mainly lossy, no big boosts, so that helps. -3 total is probably enough headroom, -6 certainly plenty.


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## BlueFlowers (Sep 26, 2012)

I was just about to change the graphs in 1/48 smoothed ones, this is just to painful to look at haha.
Since you responded so quickly again I'm too late now. Oh well.

Thank you for your answers, now I'm reassured I'm not doing anything crazy.

I have read a couple of other threads on the subject of putting in filters before the sweep in REW. Just last month John stated in a post that he is still looking into it. With your protocol on how to use Reaper for it, it has become very easy, even if it isn't done in REW itself yet.

Thanks again for your help AudiocRaver, it's been a pleasure :clap:


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Absolutely!


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