# Gollum's Cave Theater



## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

See Below... (Cannot delete first post or it will delete the entire thread!)


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Reserved!


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

This is my theater I have been building. I have juggled the design and building process between a contractor and my folks which have payed to have the room built. The building came to a halt last summer which I was not anticipating. There were other developments in the rest of the house such as a bedroom and additional deck. My equipment closet and room treatments did not get done. It has been a long and difficult journey thus far. The lobby I had some part in being able to decorate (I painted it but has since been filled with tacs :sad2 but I would like to have my lighted sign there someday which I have designed a place for. It has turned into a DIY project. Here are the latest developments....

My photo website http://www.flickr.com/photos/tns29/

I did need to use the panel nails for more of the trim after all. I needed it or the small upper pieces on the side.and the top and bottom pieces. I used some caulk to do some fill and used spakle for the rest. I had to do this over after the corner pieces went in.. I used some finishing screws I picked up last week in one area of the crown where using the stud was not ideal (screen) and in a few other places where I was concerned about using the finishing nails. I got a coping saw last weekend which has really helped. I picked up three boxes of Industrial Strength Velcro for extra support for the panels then too.

The store did not have the right finishing nails so I got those instead which work fine. I am done with working above the screen. I will not risk touch up painting there regardless of how it looks.

I put Roxul in the ceiling in two areas, between the screen and first row, and the corner at the back of the room. 










The left of the room during crown installation. I picked up a small paint roller/rollers and exterior acrylic latex (jet black) paint to touch up the runners on the sides for after the removal of the excess caulk that secures the DIY tiles. I also picked up the most dark and least reflective fabric remnant they had at the store. That will be put above the crown and the side runners and under the DIY tiles so the caulk is not visible there in case anyone has a flashlight. It also is to keep sound in the ceiling better. 










The right side of the room during the crown installation. A ceiling runner is drying since it needed painting.









The rear right trap with burlap 










A trap in the rear of the room with burlap.

I cannot link images for flickr. Tell me if I am breaking a rule. Link to the site is above. I will try to update as often as I can.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

I am even one step further to having the theater the way I would like it. I am trying to decide now whether I want to build the closet where it is at with some integrated design into a sub woofer enclosure, or if I should move the closet. It would take some rather difficult convincing by myself to others but I would really like to have one in the lobby since I was already turned down for having one in the storage closet. My previous idea of one in the closet had some complications due to cable length runs and the fact that it was not my closet to begin with. 

Here are some new photos.

Here is a photo of the front of the room taken at the back wall. 



















The new crown, bass traps, and panels. The panels are hung using Industrial Strength Velcro. ( four small boxes and a large one) They can be adjusted.










The left of the room after completing the crown. There is no equipment closet or track lighting yet. I did not choose for the room to be entirely black.


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

Coooooooooooool!!! I like the room. I bet Steve will like your towers in the rear:bigsmile:

Curious on your sub placement, does it sound better elevated like that?


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Thats awesome! I loooove fullrange surrounds. Nice setup. What electronics do you have?


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

thxgoon said:


> Coooooooooooool!!! I like the room. I bet Steve will like your towers in the rear:bigsmile:
> 
> Curious on your sub placement, does it sound better elevated like that?


*Short answer:*

I would test different heights but my ceiling is to low to begin with so it could not go any higher I think. It would be interesting to see what idea others had to do with that if not here but in another area. I would rather not move it to the front wall because of the cost to do so and I like my cable runs a short distance when possible. It sounds better than before when I had it lower although I don't have a clear explanation as to why. I might move out the equipment closet all together so I could lower it about a foot. Moving it would not have anything to with THX although it could appear that way.

*More info*

I tried various ways with the sub. I tried using the sub under my center channel with a new speaker I thought might improve the sound. It was an inexpensive Pioneer car audio speaker. It could not handle being hooked up to my mono amp at 200W 4ohm but it was all I could afford to test with at the time not including the sub driver I had prior which I tried also. I ended up returning the driver and only using the new THX Select 200W sub since the two running together made things worse. I now have an extra mono amp that isn't in use until I can figure out how to build a new center channel enclosure with an 18" woofer properly (also with the rear one after that is placed in it's permanent home) and I can afford to. 

I tried moving it around more at where I placed my in- wall area. I could not reach my cable to the seating area to test the placement (I did this already before the room had framing) so I tried to the right of the first row. That wasn't working as well. The problem I had was that the wall to the right with the concrete behind it, as is the rear, was concrete. That was taking any amount of the LFE being sent to the sub and causing reverberation. Placing the sub at my intended original location also had a negative impact on the sound because I was placing it right next to the DIY traps that are hidden in the rear speakers platform. It was something I had decided that if it had not worked with my original design, I had at least a very nice place for a guitar pickup or other RCA device (up to three) to plug into.

I tried moving the sub to on the top of the rear speaker platform moving it around and away from the wall again but the right of the room still had obvious problems that even my father was complaining of. I took the entire connection out of the loop with the in-wall interconnects and placed the sub on the equipment rack. I immediately had problems with the rear of the room. This was prior to adding more room treatments still. It was something I was able to treat temporarily by adding strips of carpet under the PVC ceiling tiles by Ceilume (they have an air gap called a backpanel as well) so that they would not rattle. That helped but then I needed to also fix the sides of the room because those tiles needed to be cut to fit and were to light. I replaced those with a new heaver PVC I made myself and used temporarily some carpet for those as well. When it was time for room treatments that I had really been looking forward to, I used caulk to secure them on both sides and put a piece of fabric under every wave where sound from traveling from the ceiling, or into the ceiling could find its way. I also added some above those runners on either side (the runners between the tiles) to help aid as much as I could there. I checked each area to see if I felt a cool breeze that is caused by the hush box fan. I had to seal my door better. I wrapped burlap around some Roxul for the small area where a tile would go in the ceiling but for now I have a cord running out of there and I removed the tile all together to make a non issue. Any future testing I will do with my computer in it's new home in the lobby for now btw. I still want to adjust things. 

What I noticed by moving the sub from the platform to the rack was mostly a result of moving it to the side. I did however try experimenting with an enclosure I built using carpet, mdf, rubber mats, and plywood. I wanted to see if adding a wall on the sides of the sub where going to help in proportion to the space I had available to build a sub box, inside a box. I did not build a perfect box but I got the idea that I needed a bigger box than what I could fit there. I also confirmed that adding an absorber above the sub was going to help because I removed the sides to test with REW as well. 

I tried also with a plywood piece under the sub which was to attach the walls that I was trying at around the same time. The plywood would be similar to what the sub would sit on after it had a place to sit it on was what I was going for. I had not really considered placing it higher than that because then the sub would be aiming closer to my hush box and would actually be obstructed from view at the center of the front wall. That however, would be a result of raising the sub higher 4.5" to make room for a second media player which I could point at over the seats. The player would be sandwiched between the rack and the new rack closet. It would fit but not much higher considering the thickness of the material needed that it would sit on. I did not want the sub as obstructed by that because it also acts as an absorber and would be like moving a sub closer to the bass trap that I had experimented with before. If I had already gotten a new hush box and projector this might be a non issue but I think a sub should not be within a certain height to the mains. I can't recall that right now.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Thank you for the complement also.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

yourgrandma said:


> Thats awesome! I loooove fullrange surrounds. Nice setup. What electronics do you have?


This is a late response lol. I am sorry I missed your question before and thank you. I have not had much time to pay attention to detail. I will be sure to install the trim under the rear bass trap next to the door that is missing when I get back. There is to much viewing in the theater going on lately to get things good down to the fine details not to mention work being done elsewhere.:dizzy:

My equipment list:

Pioneer VSX-1012
6 Marantz MA 500 (1 not in use)
Denon POA 5200
6 Polk RTi70
Polk Csi40 (not the original tweeter right now)
NEC 6PG Plus (6100)
Toshiba HD-XA2
Key Digital KD-VA5
12" Subwoofer by Crystal Audio

Until they offer digital cable at the lake house, I prefer not to watch television in there but for some, I will make an exception with a Sony DVD recorder with component output. We watched the football game with our team being #1 right before I took that photo. They lost and I had to contend with HDCP handshake issues afterwards before we watched our 4X3 aspect ratio DVD. :foottap: The room sounds good with the exception of needing to close that vent, and partial rear ceiling absorption for the time being.:yes: 

I demoed Jurassic Park with the sub placement and it seemed like things were good to me. I have never been in another home theater before so it is difficult to say how good it does or doesn't sound. I am hesitant to share REW test results, at least until a relative or friend visits with a computer that has a better sound-card. The one in my PCI slot is not the best quality and my on-board causes to many conflicts.


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

wow, looks very neat!

what's the ceiling panels made of?


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

mike c said:


> wow, looks very neat!
> 
> what's the ceiling panels made of?


Thank you mike c. The runners, panels, and back-panels (second layer of panel with air between) are all PVC. The runners are made by Ceiling link and the panels are made by Ceilume.


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

why PVC? wouldn't that make the ceiling reflective? or are those supposed to act as diffusers?

but I do like the "look" though ... if there's no con/negative in using a reflective surface for the ceiling, I like the modern approach.

why are the surrounds at the rear instead of the sides? room limitation?


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

mike c said:


> why PVC? wouldn't that make the ceiling reflective? or are those supposed to act as diffusers?
> 
> but I do like the "look" though ... if there's no con/negative in using a reflective surface for the ceiling, I like the modern approach.
> 
> why are the surrounds at the rear instead of the sides? room limitation?


I turned my tiles so that the reflections from the front and center channel speakers were minimized. I may also end up doing this for the rear channels someday. The ceiling acts as a diffuser and absorber. In this situation, if they were not reflective they could not be as good at absorption. The tiles act like a membrane on a panel with a layer of air between them, then there are absorptive materials behind that. Tiles that are not PVC are not the only ones that are effective at absorption it is important to note. Some made from other materials use holes instead which is also effective.


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

i see. so it's more like for low frequency absorption. looks like you've put a lot of thought into this room's acoustics. I wish I had the time and space to do mine


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

My education into acoustics started some time around when AOL was invented. I had a 1.0 version. I had about one month to plan the room and on most days I was present during the construction. I designed it myself (not counting what I copied of course) but without this forum and ones like it, it would have looked much different. It still could, and hopefully will, look even better.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

The power company came again this year and tore down my neighbors electrical wire again to restore power. :innocent: I was without power slightly longer this year which came to about 30 hours. He still has not properly installed his power line. My father was in an automobile accident but he lived. I am waiting for the looters to show again but last year, I don't think they were expecting me. They ended up taking copper piping out of some houses down the road. :dontknow: I should be alright I think. I can begin to watch my new season of 24 on DVD now after a warm meal. :meal:


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Here is what I propose. 

Move the equipment rack to what is currently the lobby. Put a custom made cabinet there behind where the door swings open. The front of the cabinet then would feature both tinted glass doors, and another door over that swings out and then goes into the sides that is wood or some other fashion. 

This would allow me to:

Turn the old kitchen into a lobby 

Hide the equipment for total lighting control in a solution that does not require an IR repeater

Place the rear sub-woofer on the base of the riser between the rear speaker platforms?

Add track lighting also at the rear of the room so I can see where I am walking? This would be a separate dimmed set than the other.

Have a custom made cabinet for all my media near the theater.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

I am almost done getting everything out of the entryway and the closet. I am designing the closet to have ventilation using a "cool-cube" that is located in the entryway next to it. That would allow for a cool air return for the theater as well and allow heating in as well from the vent that is already installed. I explained this to the man that installed the heater and ac prior to him installing it last year. :innocent:

For communication with the devices I am thinking maybe the Harmony RF and wireless extender route. 

I would like a backlit light box display also for the name of the theater to be featured. I am looking at the ones from Bigposters.com. :daydream:

For the lighting I would like the Z-Wave dimmers according to whatever type track-lighting and what kind of bulbs go into the sconces. 

The projector cord will have to be hidden under the runners by removing some pieces of them. The new wire runs will be ran over the steel I beams again and the remaining wire will be left in the wall because I don't think it is going anywhere. :yawn:

The snack area will be the old kitchen complete with my new microwave I got for the holdiays, the old refrigerator and other appliances with additional upgrades. 

The old lobby will be an entryway and nothing more but will have some nice decor (like the sign) and maybe some functional storage. I will probably build the outlet on the wall into a cabinet and add some nice lamps etc.

The speakers in the back of the room will have freedom!! 

There will be some additional room treatments made and I will try and run a second CAT5 using the conduit into the wall and installing an access panel for when are cable service goes digital. I will see about adding an additional conduit as well. 

Add a pre pro for my current setup such as the Integra and then I would be ready for a DIY sub in the front of the room. Need more cables and wires already for the plan as is. Need more acoustic materials etc but the budget is a very basic estimate currently.

I could install a false wall using the current stage and access that through a crawl space from the equipment closet for a new AT screen but the way technology is I just could not be sure, so it is to early to talk about that I suppose.

I am using my computer in the living room since they did not install a phone line in my future room and I prefer not to loose things during the times I have to relocate. They are moving a wall there to make room for a door so I will be sleeping wherever possible. I will be watching tv where possible. I got a printer now so that helps. Doing lots of software design etc. :bigsmile: I'm trying to learn Chief Architect 9.5 more in detail.

I am now a Netflix member, I got HP HD-DVD (b-day gift) gift set, and Cast Away on DVD and some nice ornaments. I'm 29 years old now so celebrating that. 

Thats my quick update...no photos or anything else yet sorry...but soon. CES is approaching so I am looking forward to how that goes.... The rest of the home design is slowly coming along as well.

- Steven


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

*Update*

Here is what a 7.1 system we are interested in getting may be like. 

*Room treatments continued*

I could finish putting up the ceiling tiles with more runners. I could also fill the areas around the outlets with some foam. I need to do something to the riser and rear platforms. The sub needs a nice heavy material also. That would not be attached to the riser or the wall. I am still thinking of ideas but any suggestions are welcome. 

*Improvements* 

I fixed a major issue I was having with my walls in the front of the room by moving the panels to the front of the wall and covering a couple of outlets. Works alright for now. :whew:I moved my sub there also. 

Here are some SketchUp images to illustrate where the new speakers might be going.



















This is the future snack area. It is has been mostly agreed by several including myself that a candy counter would fit nicely where the current counter top is located.

[/img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2402/2175384724_c9e534ccac_o.jpg

This is the closet being remodeled for the equipment. I removed the plywood boards myself. :bigsmile: I might have to remove the walls myself also! :rant: The contractor was on vacation so we forgive him. Everything that was in there fits perfectly fine in the upstairs closet. There will be even more storage areas to store other things later. :dontknow: The vent in the corner is the hush box vent. I plan on ventilating this room into the entryway. We need AC and Heating to get into the theater. As it is at the present time, the heavy steel door at the entrance swings open if not shut whenever the HVAC kicks on. Not good. :doh:

[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2235/2175378106_0f549ce0dd.jpg

In this photo is the concrete above the HT foundation beside a drain that needs repair. It is insured so they should fix this free of charge. :scratch: The drain on the left side I would like to see rerouted to the other side of the home when the addition there takes place. I am really looking forward to how they will fix that. It could destroy whatever plans I have for my HT if not taken care of. :sad: 










The entryway and what was the lobby. It has been made very clear to me that it is last on our list of things to design and will not be given much thought or discussion until the other home is sold. :spend:










Here is a link to more photos. other photos


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## Funkmonkey (Jan 13, 2008)

WOW! Someday I wanna grow up and build a gnarly home theater too. :T

Looks awesome, I am sure it sounds as cool as it looks.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Thanks Funkmonkey


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Got some income tax return lol

I bought another MA-500U amplifier. That will the 7 of them, one for each speaker. :bigsmile:

My copy of DVE is also shipping now. I am ordering some Noise S.T.O.P.™ Acoustical Soundproofing Sealant from http://sensiblesoundsolutions.com/ and some OSI® Pro-Series® Formula #38™ also for which I think I will need to pick up a larger caulk gun for from the hardware store. The Pro-Series can be painted so I need this to paint around my doors and trim etc. Hopefully I will have some leftover for in the ceiling (between supports) , the equipment closet, and entryway when that is done. 

I will also use some clear silicone around my screen maybe but I don't plan to do that anytime soon, only as a last resort if caulking the speaker connection and outlet under it does not help.

I have decided to try the THX-3D12 Special Edition system from Crystal Audio for my speakers. I like the special edition but I want the sub to be the same as my current sub which is not a "piano black" finish. Might save the rest of the money for a used truck or something. :scratchhead:


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

To be more clear..the speakers I am not ordering yet. 

Here is a new photo of the panels moved.










More at the link to the image site.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2008)

Nice Room!


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

travis4710 said:


> Nice Room!


Thanks

Here is my progress in no particular order.

Placed GIK 244 traps on the front wall. (need absorption in a couple more areas. I keep tweaking the position of these in the corner, closer to the screen etc. I plan to get some more room treatments from GIK later on)










Moved my first reflection panels together. I moved the lower ones higher.

Removed some of my back panels from the ceiling for testing and to resolve some issues. I need some insulation in a couple places..

I caulked and painted the doors and crown molding. I adjusted the entrance door because the the weather stripping was not in well. I may need to get a different style later on.

New tweeter for the center channel (one that was designed for the speaker from Polk) The place I bought it at recorded my purchase as a Polk Rti70 so when the tweeter was blown (bridged two mono amplifiers) I was not able to get a replacement all these years. I think it was blown about 4 years ago while I had the warranty, or could have had rather.. It wasn't cheap to replace. This is a photo of the new one.










Placed the subwoofer on the new sub dude that arrived










I'm using the new amplifier. There are two mono amps not in use. The Denon will go to my bedroom to power the other two Polk Rti70 towers there.










Got a refurbished USB sound card for testing. It has analog inputs/outputs on the other side pictured.










Ordered three more 8ft ceiling runners. I have not opened those yet. They offer the ones that are already black now. I will just be touching up my other ones later since I had two types of finish for them last time. These are for repair, or changes if I get a new projector someday.

I placed a missing one in the ceiling I found in the garage. The ceiling quit making the pop noise there. Allot of Romex will be moved later. It poses no concern at this time since the power is not in use yet unless lights are on, outlets are used in the HT or garage. power is running in the garage etc.










Painted my front speaker wire black.

Touched up the walls where my panels used to be with textured paint, then repainted.

My father bought a new 2007 Sierra and I will have my own transportation..soon I think.

I ordered a few other things more recently.

- Behringer FBQ2496 Feedback Destroyer Pro
- M-Audio MIDISport UNO 1x1 MIDI Interface with Cables and Connectors
- A couple Pro-Audio cables with XLR connections on them for the new gear

Pioneer VSX-1012 is gone. 

The receiver is now non operational. I checked the fuses. Since I quit using the amplifiers on it and I used all the wires for my mono amplifiers I must be careful not to run things to hot. I had everything setup using DVE and tried the test tones in the XA2 and it began failing then finally quit working. There were strange hum noises from the XA2 after I setup that way even with my amplifiers, and they began to shutdown (click on and off) also, so I will not use that anymore. My speakers are getting old also. I did not have a remote for it, it was not enough to power my speakers, it was open box from years ago, and no manual was available, my folks did not want it for lack of features that they wanted. I think I got my moneys worth out of it. Instead of getting a universal remote, being worried about powering the speakers @ 90W or 100W per channel, we will get a new receiver for the new media room being built. One that works with a new plasma on one remote.

We have had some meetings with the contractor and builder about changes to the home including the HT. I have meet with excavation etc. It looks like they are removing the steps in the garage and making my bedroom larger. :bigsmile: I will be trying some new software to show the design on the computer again. We did not have the key code for the last one.

More updates later.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

There is not much left to do on the list before I can start watching movies again. It is time for me next to figure out where to place these subwoofers. I will order more cables and run them to new areas if I need to. Here are some photos of what is done so far.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Photos of the equipment closet nearly ready. I still have cable managment to do yet and then there is the never ending upgrades that will take place. 





































I'm looking at smaller speakers now. Smaller speakers to make more room for people. :thud:

So far now I like the MORDAUNT SHORT Mezzo 2, Ascend's CBM-170 SE or the CMT-340 SE Mains, Crystal Acoustics Dipoles. I think I need about 3 pair for surrounds. Decisions Decisions.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

I have since filled the front of the rooms ceiling with Quiet Batt and added insulation to all the tiles that are sealed using duct tape with the Back Panels on them. It's a little tricky to get them to not rattle as that takes some careful installation. I may also go back and duct tape the ceiling tiles to the runners again which I have tried before. Most of the other changes are pretty much covered scattered about the forum in other threads. Sorry I have not been able to keep up to date much.

I won the GIK Pillar trap here at the Shack. That is in my right front corner now, and I would like to add another to the other corner soon. I think it might be nice to add some GIK 244's to the first reflection points, and some GIK 242's to the side walls bellow ear level. If there is any advise in treating the room that is would be aprreciated. I realize it is a rather difficult room to deal with. I added a two 4" panels to my door and caulk saver around the weatherstriping. The equipment closet is still undergoing changes.

I have an Outlaw 950 that should be arriving pretty soon. That will make measuring the room more simple, and offers a 24dB octave crossover as oppossed to my current 12dB octave one that I use. 

Here are some photos of the room and a measurement of the front row with REW after equalization.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

The new pre/pro is working great so I kept that. I moved two of my subwoofers to the back of the room moving the book cases out of the way some and placing each on each side of the back GIK 244's. The other subs up front are all spread apart now which made it simple to place an unopened package of R19 behind my center channel sitting on the stage. I have the blanket covering that but I'm going to get some fabric to make it look more neat, and I might build a frame also. The equipment rack is now full as I have moved the amplification for the subwoofers to it, using the other set of speaker wire in the wall plates to run them. I picked up some low voltage black wiring from the store up the road which is nice but I accedently got much more than I needed. I had not expected the new setup to work quite as well as it did, but since changing the room around it appears to work quite well the way I have it now.

The lobby and equipment room has undergone some modifications also. I moved the candy counter from away from being in front of the equipment door, and added some new shelves for the collectables. I am able to fit all the Lord of the Ring collectables on a shelf in the lobby, and have made room for more to be added inside the equipment closet. There is more room to walk around in those areas now.

The location of the surrounds is really working out well and I feel alot more confident about getting the location to work now that I have tried it for awhile. It obviously is not the best location as far as walking by them however it isn't meant to be permanant. The last time I had them there I had tried additional shelving but they were so high that it was not safe for them. I find them distracting in the back row, but I was told it sounded alright by those that normally sit back there. They are probobly glad to have them closer from being so far in front of them before.

I have four GIK 244's and a second matching GIK Pillar Trap on the way thanks to having my birthday, and winning the Shack giveaway. 

I have painted my front speakers with flat black paint, then given it a few layers of protective semi-gloss. I will also do this to my rear speakers but because I share heating with the garage, I'm only doing two at once. These need to dry a good 48 - 78 hours but they seem almost dry to the touch already. Here is a photo of the Polk Rti70's being painted.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

These are my options to place the GIK 244's in dealing with the first reflections points. Any of these look like a better option?

Option #1 Place two on each side together.











Option #2 Place one pair on the older speaker platforms between the seating area.










Option #3 Place them on the speaker stands right next to the surrounds.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Here are some SketchUp renders I am working with. I will use these to show the different measurements that I do with panels at different locations. You can click them for a 800X600 resolution. I am done painting the speakers.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

The first pair of panels arrived today. Here is how one looks sitting on the floor next to the wall.










I will get some better photos once I am done cleaning. It turns out it is best to carry the speakers with trash bags over them because otherwise they are dust magnets.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

I have tried moving around the panels while watching a movie. Having the panels laying horizontal on the older speakers platforms seems to address something to do with the subwoofers and speakers timing. Having the panels as shown in the previous photo seems to address even more to do with the each of the mains timing. With them there it seems to improve the boominess from the left corner some as well. The dialogue is more centered, and the left and right channels become difficult for me to pinpoint where they are located.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

My subwoofers destroyed one of my rear book shelves. I was watching Transformers then all the sudden I heard it rattling in the back of the room. I felt the back of it and a peice fell of that attached the rear panel to the shelving. I have another I could use but this time I will remove the flimsy back panel covering.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

If those panels are 2' x 4' (and I'm only guessing from the part number) then one each side at the first reflection point, should be all you need, and perhaps another panel each side at the second reflection point..
All positioned vertically..


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

I will give that a try. Do you think they will be fine if they are simply sitting against the walls?


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

thewire said:


> I will give that a try. Do you think they will be fine if they are simply sitting against the walls?


No, I wouldn't do that..
Put them in the actual position on the wall, just temporarily for the moment..and then take your readings..


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Prof. said:


> No, I wouldn't do that..
> Put them in the actual position on the wall, just temporarily for the moment..and then take your readings..


I kind of wanted the additional space behind them similar to using the stands. I should be able to mount them over the panels there already later on if I needed, then perhaps I could hang them on the wall sitting on the stands or the platforms. I will try sitting them on something then to see how the height effects the results.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

The measurements with them raised off the floor some now match more closely for each left (green) and right (blue) than for when I had them on the floor. I do have the materials to make something so I think I might try seeing what I can build to sit them on instead of trying to hang them on the walls. 

These look similar to when I measure my speakers much closer to the seating area. I did some filters for the sub again. I applied 1/12 smoothing to these. I'm getting what appears to be allot of noise at 120Hz in my waterfall measurements.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

I took some near field measurements.

This is at the speakers current location @ 1 meter 1/24 octave smoothing, RS meter level between the tweeter and the upper driver of the two pair. I used a 80Hz crossover and the subs were off. I will try and measure the other Polk speakers to see if that helps, but my positioning is somewhat limited to moving the speaker back and closer to the corner, or having the beam block the speaker from reaching a seating location.

Current location










Near the center of the front of the room










To me I found the location to be a good comprimise, but I might try adjusting the position if that would help.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

I put together these stands using an older pair of speaker stands I had and placing a couple table legs in them... It is difficult to get a photo where things look clean. This is not how the lighting looks naturally. I might be able to get things a bit more clean looking yet still.. 

Sorry Bryan.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

How far away from the wall are you planning to place these panels?


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Prof. said:


> How far away from the wall are you planning to place these panels?


I am spacing them pretty far using these stands. The speakers are slightly over 1' from the side walls. They panels are currently spaced 6" and it sounds like they are doing a good job. The combing problems I was hearing from the room next to the speakers is gone and I hear some very clean midrange and some crisp sounding highs. What I am doing is more practical for rooms with reverberation issues. Hanging a panel on a thin wall with concrete behind it will not absorb very well because the reflection point or zero point energy is actually a bit more difficult to deal with. 

When I had my first panels I tested them in various locations and these corrected some frequency response with them placed slightly behind the front row but I only tried them on the floor. I will also be trying when the next ones come. I will try some measurements in the back of the room also but it's messy there.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

It sounds like you're getting there...
I was going to suggest, instead of using stands for the panels {and when you've decided on their final position) that you mount them to the walls on standoff brackets, since they're only going to be 6" off the wall..
It would look neater than the stands with hidden brackets, and no chance of them being bumped or knocked over..


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Prof. said:


> It sounds like you're getting there...
> I was going to suggest, instead of using stands for the panels {and when you've decided on their final position) that you mount them to the walls on standoff brackets, since they're only going to be 6" off the wall..
> It would look neater than the stands with hidden brackets, and no chance of them being bumped or knocked over..


I tied one of the back ends around the poles with the installation wire that came with them which I thought might help keep them at least level. It turns out I may have been right because after a movie checking the one without the attachment wire it was no longer level. I thought about attaching some wood poles (kind used for making coat racks) into the screws at the top of the table legs. That would give the panels something level to sit on. 

The studs are located about center to the furthest edge of the 2" panels. The one on the right is slightly further over, and the one on the left has some AC voltage readings on my stud finder. At hardware stores nearby the have some rather large looking brackets that may work your idea so I will keep it in mind. I was actually very happy the RT60 results with them even spaced the 3" prior, and I have not yet measured the newer placement. The RT60 dropped above 300Hz leaving the midbass above that higher as it was before, and a gradual slope up the higher frequencies after 1Khz. Any lower than .01 seconds is taking it to far I have read. With my last measurements this went to 1.5 seconds. 

I think I am going to try some new filters or the ones I used previously as raising the subwoofer output gain to achieve the correct looking crossover slope in my last measurements sent the BFD into clipping with Saving Private Ryan at more than around -8 reference. The crossover slope looked a bit more steap in my last measurements of the sub, so I will do some investigating to whether I may need to adjust them after installing the new panels or not, or whether having the mic at a slight angle had interfered with the LFE higher than 80Hz.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

thewire said:


> The studs are located about center to the furthest edge of the 2" panels. The one on the right is slightly further over, and the one on the left has some AC voltage readings on my stud finder. At hardware stores nearby the have some rather large looking brackets that may work your idea so I will keep it in mind.


I wouldn't be too concerned about trying to pick up the stud points to mount them..It's more important to have the panels correctly positioned..

If you use what we call "Wall-Mates" (you may have another name for them), they are the large threaded plastic plugs that screw straight into the drywall..They should be ample to support the panels..

This is a rough sketch of the bracket mounting idea...The spacing of the panel off the wall can be adjusted by the size of the wall bracket..


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Yes I tried doing that with my 2" panels. I ended up having to use furring strips and deck screws, then attaching panels to that. Are you saying my panels are not correctly positioned or that using studs they would be? Bryan suggested I try them lower.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

thewire said:


> Yes I tried doing that with my 2" panels. I ended up having to use furring strips and deck screws, then attaching panels to that. Are you saying my panels are not correctly positioned or that using studs they would be?


No..What I'm saying is that when your panels are finally located in the correct position, don't be too concerned about them not lining up with your studs for mounting..The Wall-Mates fixings for the brackets will support the panels just on the drywall..


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

It sound like wall mates are drywall anchors. Is this what you mean by wall mates in the photo?

I could try some very large drywall anchors with larger screws. See what happened with the others is the panels vibrate, drywall turns to dust, then they hang off the walls about to fall off. With these new larger heavier panels, I hesitate to start drilling more holes in the wall, but I suppose if it was some serious wall mounting, it could work. See 115dB shakes my walls and the only thing keeping my other panels from falling is the fact that the brackets are mounted with the tops hung using velcro. :hsd::dontknow: 










This is how my other panels work attached to the outdoor carpet. They are very lightweight.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

The new bass traps arrived.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

Sorry Steven...I thought I had posted a photo of those Wall-Mates for you..
They do look to be different than the ones you're using..
As you can see from the photo, they have a very course thread which really hangs on to the plaster board.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Prof. said:


> Sorry Steven...I thought I had posted a photo of those Wall-Mates for you..
> They do look to be different than the ones you're using..
> As you can see from the photo, they have a very course thread which really hangs on to the plaster board.


I see. That I think could work.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

I measured the average response of my center (blue), left (red), and right (green). Since I don't have a way to average an RTA measurement which would allow me to measure with the speaker distance timing from DVD player with the internal crossover inside the Outlaw, and I cannot measure both at the same time, I will simply overlay some left and right measurements using some Pink PN in the CD player at the center of the front row. While I do so I will try moving the panels and see what effect there is. 

These were of the front row only and I applied 1/12 smoothing to the averaged results.










I needed to lower the output of the sub in the pre/pro -1 adjustment.


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

thewire said:


> I see. That I think could work.


I think those plastic anchors work better than the other kind, you don't need to make a hole ...I've seen different sizes and load capacities, just use a drill with the screwdriver bit to place them on the wall, I used a regular screwdriver but it was hard ....:yes:

Nice work you're doing!!!! :T


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

salvasol said:


> I think those plastic anchors work better than the other kind, you don't need to make a hole ...I've seen different sizes and load capacities, just use a drill with the screwdriver bit to place them on the wall, I used a regular screwdriver but it was hard ....:yes:
> 
> Nice work you're doing!!!! :T


Thank you. 

I'm still having some trouble figuring out where to place these last panels. The most dramatic change I saw was with them right next to the speakers. There is the slight problem that the on axis response of the speaker to the floor that causes the dip at 100Hz. I was able to fix this for the LFE by simply moving the subs away from the center of the room some, but the speaker opposite the side of the seat is causing dips in the phase and the 100Hz area. So if your in the farthest right seat there are dips in the left speaker, and in the farthest seat to the right there are dips in the left speaker. If I remodel the the riser without the back steps (once used for the equipment rack) I can move the other seat back there, and not worry about positioning the speakers around the beam. They would be more like 45% instead of 55%.

I will try and see if I can build something to fill the steps out of the new plywood and leftover carpet.

I will be sure to add the wall mates to my shopping list. I have lots of screw driver bits. :bigsmile: Thats a good tip.

eidt: I need to make sure that moving speakers works first before I decide to change the seating.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

I just remembered that moving the speakers closer will cause phase problems and that is not related to the walls or what the panels will do so I think I will stick with the way the speakers and seats are. I remembered this allows more seating also.


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

thewire said:


> ...I think I will stick with the way the speakers and seats are. I remembered this allows more seating also.


Just remember ...we have to get the best audio/video in our sweet spot, let the other miss a little of the action :whistling: :bigsmile:


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

salvasol said:


> Just remember ...we have to get the best audio/video in our sweet spot, let the other miss a little of the action :whistling: :bigsmile:


I will be sure to check one last time what moving the speakers closer will do, and see what it is like in the left seat. As it is I would need to move the speakers forward then also to not block that seat, and the 80Hz area goes up quite a bit. I will check that out again also just to see.

While I was running some crossover phase test in a THX optimzer I found that the wall heater is rattling against the wall. I am thinking of taking this out of the room if I hear it being a problem while watching a movie.

I moved my 2" panels as far as I could remounting them, and so that the holes in the carpet/walls from the previous mount do not show. This gives some more room to hang the new panels closer to the speakers, and will allow them to be the same height as the next ones.










I picked up supplies to hang the new ones. Hope these look like they will work. The rest of the furring strips are for the frame for making the bass trap on the stage. I will order the fabric.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

That looks like the right gear! :T


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Prof. said:


> That looks like the right gear! :T


:sweat: 

I tried moving the speakers and they seem to be in the best position already. Moving them does not effect the response like it used to and besides not causing peaks this time, it seemed to create more dips. This was something to do with the phase I pressume. Well I tested with my THX optimizer and the phase settings are already correct right now so no more messing with that.

I did a test with REW at -20dB FS Pink PN and my CD player with the Pink PN at -20dB FS and I do not need to adjust the subwoofer output. :scratch:

According to the levels with my RS Meter and the REW disk I made reference is -5 on my pre/pro for a 85dB reading at -20dB FS Pink PN. This is with a setting on the subs of -4 and the right speaker at 0. This small difference in the measurements of REW and the CD player look pretty consistant in level which I have not seen when using Pink Noisefb in the past, then comparing measurement sweeps or Pink PN on either the CD input of muliti channel in. I beleave this is like a bypass of the trim inside the pre/pro, if that makes since. :scratch: This gives me the extra headroom I want inside the XA2 DVD/CD player which looks to be around an extra 3dB. That should be enough to make up for the low analog subwoofer signal and +4 pro level on the FBQ input I think. :dizzy:

This is the REW measurement 1/24 octave measurement of the Pink PN at -20dB FS (light green) and the CD Pink PN at -20dB FS (dark green) with 1/6 smoothing. I calibrated levels in REW using the CD player and Pink Noisefb at -20dB FS at -10 on my pre/pro but I told REW it was 75dB instead of 78dB which it read on the meter. The level in tranistion from the subs to the mains look pretty smooth. :dontknow:










Next task is to hang the panels then.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Using the mirror method I am way off in the placement I was planning. They were each about a foot off. This puts the first panels to be placed near 4" inside of the area with carpet, and the second ones to be placed near 4" - 6" outside of the vertical trim. This means I will be mounting the new panels over the other panels 2' 6" off the ground so that they will not sit on the older platforms. They will be spaced 4 1/2" from the walls and I will use the brackets I have left from the other panels on the ends of the extentions and inside the frame of the GIK traps to keep them secure to the frames. I will paint the extentions and the wall mates before I hang them. 










Am I understanding this photo correctly that I need a support peice above and bellow the panel?

The frame peices are visible bellow and above the panel, then I attach the panel to these frame peices?

I think I have sanding to do then. :scratch: There is a recessed 1 1/2" area behind the panel, why am I not placing the furring strips inside of that kind of like hanging a picture frame? :huh: I wonder if it would slip out, or I could attach the other panel brackets to hold it, but i worry they would rattle. I could use caulk then maybe and caulk the furring strips to the inside of the frame? This would limit my ability to travel with them. I could use the supplied wiring and attach that to an area to keep them in place.onder:


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

I think I see what I will have to do. I will have to make what will be like an artist easel, then attach the wire or a wire to the second wire in back to the wall and hold in place.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

I can't do that eather. :gah: 

I will have to make a support peice between the panels on the wall, then using the brakets and a peice attached the panels also with brackets, hang it on that. :scratch:


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

I'm not quite sure exactly what you're trying to do...
If you can do a drawing of where and how these panels are to be positioned, I might get a better idea for a fixing method..
I can't tell much from the photos..:scratch:


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Prof. said:


> I'm not quite sure exactly what you're trying to do...
> If you can do a drawing of where and how these panels are to be positioned, I might get a better idea for a fixing method..
> I can't tell much from the photos..:scratch:


Mirror method places them in the shaded areas shown here. This is not to scale.











Here is a prototype for the mounting mechanism. My woodworking skill are limited to a dull table saw between two plant potters and a drill that half works.










Sorry this is very confussing to me also.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

The testing with the prototype hung on plywood reveals that it will bow too much, and I don't have a way of cutting the wood straight. I tried adding support braces between the middle but it does not look right, or work to improve the problem. Unless there are other ideas, I will have to forget about spacing them and hope for the best. The second reflection points would be spaced less due to the panels being hung against the other panels.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Does this look better than the stands if I clean up the panel and paint the parts black? raying: There is no way they would fall over being hung on those hanging brackets I posted in the pick earlier. This would have the spaced a foot which is pointless if I understand correctly, but it would get the job done the way I would like. This would alter the reflections off the panels and create some kind of difraction as well possibly.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

These are my results from yesterdays tweeking. I'm really anxious to do some new measurements with the panels hung like this because it sounds really good now. :wow:

I did not hang the other set of panels like this I only sat them on the older platforms just close enough to be covering the speaker connection plates. They are near being the same height, and I could adjust this by adding more tension to the wiring.

Yesterdays measurements of the left (red), center (blue), and right (green).










Again, I hope you like better. They are more safe now. :innocent:


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

thewire said:


> Does this look better than the stands if I clean up the panel and paint the parts black? raying: There is no way they would fall over being hung on those hanging brackets I posted in the pick earlier. This would have the spaced a foot which is pointless if I understand correctly, but it would get the job done the way I would like. This would alter the reflections off the panels and create some kind of difraction as well possibly.


That looks quite neat, and with the brackets painted black, you wouldn't know they were there..:T
It looks like you're getting very close to what you're trying to achieve..


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## roffe (Feb 5, 2007)

thewire said:


> These are my results from yesterdays tweeking. I'm really anxious to do some new measurements with the panels hung like this because it sounds really good now. :wow:
> 
> I did not hang the other set of panels like this I only sat them on the older platforms just close enough to be covering the speaker connection plates. They are near being the same height, and I could adjust this by adding more tension to the wiring.
> 
> ...


Congratulations. That looks great. The center channel is a bit uneven around 200Hz, but other than that, these are great in-room measurement results.

Looks like you have great acoustic symmetry in the room, the way the left and right speakers follow each other closely.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

roffe said:


> Congratulations. That looks great. The center channel is a bit uneven around 200Hz, but other than that, these are great in-room measurement results.
> 
> Looks like you have great acoustic symmetry in the room, the way the left and right speakers follow each other closely.


 Thank you. Fortunitly I have the speaker postitions memorized. The other day I took my DVD player off pause during Master and Commander at +5 reference and the FBQ was clipping. This didn't make much since to me with the pre/pro level at -9 for the sub. I decided that I was running out of headroom so I moved the subwoofers to the corners, moved my seats forward, and optimized playback for the back row instead gaining around +6dB for the subs and thinking off turning down the overall volume. While I was setting up the gear my center channel started going into protection mode for no reason and I tracked it down to the XA2 DVD player. Turning the player off then on again put the center channel amp (same as I use for the subs) out of protection mode. I lost my first receiver as a result of the XA2 so this is kind of scarry. It is why I put extra headroom in the player. You can see the thread here. I'm waiting for expert advise. Transformers at +6 reference does not even light up the fifth bar so far that I have been watching on the FBQ (subwoofer equalizer) at the -18 LED.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3113/3217823564_707b8d0e4d_o.jpg

I do agree that the above looks pretty good. The back row does not have the 80Hz problem so I'm deciding what to do still. The seats are where they were now when I designed the theater.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

It kind of looks like the thick door bass trapping is helping the right speaker and not having one on the right of the room is causing problems. :huh: I forgot to try the panels there.:doh:


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

I would need to remove the spacing from the panels, cover the second reflection points, and set the speakers back (which did little) on the subdudes to raise them to near ear level. This would make the back row work and increase headroom. It is around a +-10dB swing instead of what was around +-6. There is still the mirror in there and the panels are half hung, but I have more things to do before I finish up in the theater.










Here is a waterfall of the back row with the mains added.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Here are the panels hung.










There are more photos of the room as it is now in the link to this photo set.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tns29/sets/72157612870461635/detail/


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