# Need new speakers not sure on approach



## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Hello to all

I need your help

I have a dedicated home theater and want to replace speakers not sure about the approach. My existing in ceiling speakers need to be replaced either with inwall or floor speakers. I find during movie dialogue the voices have an echo effect ie sounds like talking in a tunnel due to proximity to dry wall ceiling placement. I expect that installing floor or inwall will solve this problem. Where I am unsure is the approach to this problem as follows:

I have a 9ft X 5ft Stuart screen (non AT) The space from carpet to edge of screen is 2 ft. Perhaps center speaker can go below screen angled up towards seats but L/F speakers will need to be placed on either side of the screen angled towards seats. Can the L and R speakers be placed on either side of screen if the screen is 9 ft in width or does this distort imaging etc?

Thanks for your input
Dwight


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

Hi Dwight. Inwalls will increase the sound leaving the room. Other than that you'd better listen to what Bryan has to say about the acoustics


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

There are very few of us who would recommend you go with in wall/ceiling speakers. The quality to price ratio is very high and placement is impossible to change once installed. Free standing speakers will give you a much better sound for the money spent. Do you have a budget in mind?


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Hi Tony
Yeah going with inceilings was a big mistake but I was a complete noob and made some bad choices. No budget in mind yet but I suspect they will be mid priced. Can I position floor speakers on either side of a 9 ft screen angled towards seats or does create other issues? 

cheers Dwight


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Dwight Angus said:


> Hi Tony
> Can I position floor speakers on either side of a 9 ft screen angled towards seats or does create other issues?
> 
> cheers Dwight


Most defiantly, how much room do you have between the sides of the screen and the side walls? If I can recomend some speakers I would have to say bang for buck the SVS MTS-01 speakers would be my first choice.
You can get them directly from SVS's Canadian seller Sonic Boom Audio


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Facing the screen I have about 20 inches between left side wall and screen and about 60 inches on the right between right side wall and screen. A major challenge will be the rewiring as all wiring is contained behind drywall. Tech room is located in a small room outside HT.

I will take a look at the SVS MTS-01 specs. Any other alternatives for comparison purposes?


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## Zing (Jan 5, 2009)

Dwight Angus said:


> Can I position floor speakers on either side of a 9 ft screen angled towards seats or does create other issues?


In a word? YES.

Theoretically, you're supposed to form an equilateral triangle between the two front speakers and the listener. So in your case, if your mains need to be 9 feet apart to avoid blocking the screen, the imaging should be perfect if your listening position is 9 feet back from those speakers.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Dwight Angus said:


> Facing the screen I have about 20 inches between left side wall and screen and about 60 inches on the right between right side wall and screen. A major challenge will be the rewiring as all wiring is contained behind drywall. Tech room is located in a small room outside HT.
> 
> I will take a look at the SVS MTS-01 specs. Any other alternatives for comparison purposes?


Your space available is just fine for floor standing speakers. There is one great comparison review between the SVS speakers and the B&W 604s that cost almost twice as much here.


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## Zing (Jan 5, 2009)

Dwight Angus said:


> Facing the screen I have about *20 inches between left side wall and screen and about 60 inches on the right* between right side wall and screen.


WOW! I completely missed this information. Why the huge disparity?

Regardless, make sure you treat that left side wall with no less than a 4" thick panel (6" would be better) and be sure to leave a 1-2" gap behind it. Otherwise, your mid and upper bass frequencies are going to sound quite thick.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Zing
The measurement from the listener to the left and right speaker position would be 13 ft. Looks like potential imaging problem here. Now what????


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Some good advice here.:yes: Here are a few reviews on speakers to help get you started,http://www.bestcovery.com/node/9562 Also could you move the listening position forward to compensate?


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Tony
The SVS MTS-01 price point is attractive compared to the B&W 604. I will include it on my list of speakers to review.
BTW I am also looking to replace my Paradigm pw2100's subs with a Pb13 ultra perhaps a package deal can be worked out with Sonic Boom.


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## Zing (Jan 5, 2009)

Dwight Angus said:


> Zing
> The measurement from the listener to the left and right speaker position would be 13 ft. Looks like potential imaging problem here. Now what????


Not to worry. A little less speaker toe-in and you should be golden! :bigsmile:


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Zing
I thought that disparity would catch someones attention. On the right side of the HT I have a 36 inch wide soffit that runs the length of the HT & houses HVAC and extends down about 10 inches from the ceiling. The screen is therefore skewed to the left side of the HT. Seats are centred on the screen. The space under the soffit is wasted space. In building the room I filled the soffit with spray foam insulation to remove the echo. Room dimensions are 27ft L by 17 ft w by 8ft tall (approx 3700 cubic ft)


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

You've gotten some good advice. I'll just add a couple of things.

The non-symmetry left to right will change tonality and imaging characteristics. This can be dealt with via treatment of side wall reflections.

The echo and non-clarity in the dialog is a combination of a lack of broadband bass control and overall decay time control in the room. A multi-channel room should be relatively dead compared to a normal home space and even compared to a 2 channel listening space.

Bryan


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Thanks Bryan
Can you tell me how to deal with the non symmetry side wall treatments? When I treated the side wall s I used 2 by 4 panels 2 inches thick at each reflection point but the approach was the same on both the left and right side walls.Your comment suggests the treatment should be different to deal with the non symmetry.

Regarding broadband bass control, although I did not install corner bass traps the entire screen wall and rear wall are built out. The screen wall is built out approx 6 inches and filled with recycled cotton while the rear wall is built out 8 inches given the proximity of rear seating to rear wall. Given the amount of broadband already in the room do you believe I still need to add more broadband? I thought the anomaly in the room is speaker related and replacing ceiling speakers with floor speakers would solve the problem.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Hi TC
No I could not move the listening postion forward as 2nd row of seats are on a broadloomed riser that is fixed. Maybe less speaker toe in would work as suggested by Zing.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Dwight Angus said:


> Tony
> The SVS MTS-01 price point is attractive compared to the B&W 604. I will include it on my list of speakers to review.
> BTW I am also looking to replace my Paradigm pw2100's subs with a Pb13 ultra perhaps a package deal can be worked out with Sonic Boom.


I personally have the PB13Ultra and all I can say is its the best bang for buck out there. It is astonishing how much quality is built into such a relatively low cost sub (its nearest competition is almost twice as much) A deal is very possible if you buy a complete SVS speaker package from Sonic Boom Audio.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi Dwight.

The front wall is thicker than I normally recommend. Usually, we just do 2" on the front wall and do the corners 12" thick or so.

On the rear wall, 8" is great. I'd use some sort of facing on it though to minimize upper mid and high frequency absorption so as not to kill the surround field. 

On the side walls, what you did is fine. I'd likely add 1 more on the closer wall directly to the side of the main speaker to help with boundary (SBIR) issues in the vocal range and down.

Bryan


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Got it 
thanks Bryan

I just thought of another task that needs to be done. I used 2 inch thick BMC board for the side walls. Given that I installed inceiling speakers these panels are located much higher on the side walls as the reflection points are much higher. When I switch to floor model speakers obviously these panels will then need to be moved down the wall to correspond with the new lower reflection points.
Sounds like I need to revisit the mirror test procedure.

Is there anything else that needs to be done that I have missed?


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Tony 
My HT is 27ft long 17 ft wide and 8ft tall. Will the SVS MTS-01's perform well enough and big enough to fill this space or do I need something with more punch? 

Yeah the ultra does sound impressive. I am sure I will notice a big difference vs my old paradigm pw2100's. Depending on budget dollars and what I can negotiate with Sonic boom perhaps I go with 2 ultra's however I could have a significant WAF to deal with here. Negotiating with Sonic boom maybe the easier discussion.

Do you know where I can demo svs speakers? Do Sonic Boom have any demo rooms?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Dwight Angus said:


> Tony
> My HT is 27ft long 17 ft wide and 8ft tall. Will the SVS MTS-01's perform well enough and big enough to fill this space or do I need something with more punch?


They will have no issue in that size room. The MTS-01's are about the same size/quality as the speakers I have and my space is even larger than yours (15x37' with an 8' ceiling.



> Do you know where I can demo svs speakers? Do Sonic Boom have any demo rooms?


I'm not sure if sonic Boom has a place to demo them as they are an internet only company (saves you money) however they are very helpful I would give them a call or email them and see what they can do for you. They do have a money back guarantee if you dont like them however I highly doubt that you wont.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Tony, I will call Sonic Boom and see what they offer. Your probably right, with the money back guarantee there is no downside risk.

Cheers
Dwight


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Dwight Angus said:


> Your probably right, with the money back guarantee there is no downside risk.


And they are fairly close to where you live so thats an added bonus in that you would get your system fast.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Yeah Sonic Boom is about an hour's drive from my location. I could probably pickup the SVS MTS-01 from their warehouse and save the shipping costs. Not sure about the ultras given their size/weight etc


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

After much deliberation I have decided on the SVS 7.2 speaker system as follows:

2 MTS-01's
4 MBS-01's
1 MCS-01
2 PB13-Ultras
1 AS-EQ1 (not sure on availability)

I am in the process of working out details with Sonic Boom.

This should give me a huge audio improvement over the Mirage Inceiling speakers and the 2 Paradigm pw2100's subs currently in use.

A couple of questions:

1)|The centre channel will be located below the screen. I only have 22 inches of space from the floor to the bottom edge of screen border. SVS do not have a stand low enough to accomodate the centre channel while remaining below the screen. They are looking for alternatives. Does anyone have a similar setup and if so, how did you resolve it? 

2)Looks like speaker impedance is 6 ohms. I am not familiar with this. Can someone tell me what effect this will have vs In-ceilings at 8 ohms?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The ohms will not affect the sound, it just means that they require a little more power to make them get to the same volume however they are very efficient speakers and you wont even notice in fact given your going away from in ceiling you will have much better dynamics and channel separation.
Use the 8ohm setting on the receiver.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Thats good news Tony as I was hoping to reuse existing electronics to drive the MTS system.


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## KptKrunch (Jul 21, 2009)

Two Ultra's - WOW. That's going to be sweet. I, like Tony, have an Ultra and it is a fabulous subwoofer. I would agree that $ for $ it could be one of the best buy's you can make. 

The SVS Speakers I've read mixed reviews on, but that was for music (lacking in some mid range but these were against some other much nicer speakers) but as this is an H/T room you should be fine, and a lot cheaper than what has caught my eye lately, which are the Catalyst's from Seaton sound - each speaker is tri-amped (1000 watts total - D class) and it's supposed to be one of the best h/t speakers out there at any price, but at $3200 EACH speaker - they better be (that's more than an Ultra). Would be interested in getting your feedback once the SVS speakers are setup (it's certainly a much cheaper route for me  ).


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Trust me Dwight, you will be the envy of the neighborhood with that setup. 2 ultras is going to be huge and really fill out the bottom end. I'm jealous.
I'm going to start charging SVS a referral fee as I've steared may people in their direction.:daydream:


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Yeah I read those reviews and as I will use the SVS speakers exclusively for movies I thought it was a good choice. 

My budget is tight so I picked a speaker system that had decent reviews and allowed me financially to afford 2 ultras. I actually expect a bigger improvement from the MTS-01 speakers compared to the Ultras as I am currently using In-ceiling speakers. Acoustics are difficult to control on the ceiling and lacks a decent sound stage. My existing subs are Paradigm PW2100's. Don't get me wrong the Ultras will be amazing and will be a huge step up but MTS-01's beat the in-ceilings in every category not even close.

Yes I will provide feedback so you can decide which direction is better for you.

Cheers
Dwight


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Yeah Tony

The MTS-01's were not even on my radar screen until you mentioned them. Everything I have read is very positive and given the price point it was hard to overlook them and you get the 45 day grace period so no downside risk. Anyway thanks for your help I really appreciate it as I really had no clue as to how to proceed to narrowing down my choices. 

cheers
Dwight


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Much to my surprise my better half has reconsidered the timing of my speaker upgrade. The good news is she still supports the upgrade just not right now. I will have to wait until some home renovation projects are completed before I can proceed. Stayed tuned.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

I am pleased to report that my better half has reconsidered (after a tough negotiation) and has agreed to proceed with the speaker upgrade. I am working out delivery dates with Sonic boom but it looks like 2 weeks from today. Not yet confirmed.

Now the work begins. I need to rewire the HT and hide all wiring behind the existing drywall. Remember I have Inceilings and a tech room that is located in a different room in the basement. This should be fun and I don't have alot of spare time over the next few weeks. I will probably get the speakers before the wiring is complete.

I enjoy a challenge.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Glad to hear, I am sure you will enjoy them.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Thanks Tony. Yes I am looking forward to replacing those inceilings. As I mentioned above the speakers maybe sitting in boxes for a while until I have the time to rewire the room. My wifes decision surprised me as I would have started the wiring sooner.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Good news

According to Sonic Boom my gear should be here tomorrow.

Can't wait


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

do I see a sick day being taken :bigsmile:


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Did you mean sick day or sick days. Actually I am on vacation this week purely coincidental that the timing worked out as well as it did. Now the bad news, I messed up my back cleaning out the garage and I can't lift anything heavy. Fortunately my neighbour is going to help me get all the gear into the basement. The AS-EQ1 is held up in customs and may not be here tomorrow. No rush as I still have to rewire the HT before I can install anything.


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

Dwight Angus said:


> I messed up my back cleaning out the garage and I can't lift anything heavy. Fortunately my neighbour is going to help me get all the gear into the basement.


He's going to love you when he sees the PB13 Ultras! You better enlist a few more neighbors and have copious amounts of beer available!


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Yeah I recruited another neighbour since I am not going to be much help with my bad back. Beer has been taken care of. Thanks for the heads up Doug.

cheers


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Christmas came early yesterday. I received everything as expected for the 7.2 system. The AS-EQ1 is expected on Friday. The rewiring project will start on Friday and hopefully will be completed sometime on the weekend. Looking forward to setting up the new system.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Pictures? Have you given them a listen yet?


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

I am trying to get a software update for my vista laptop so it will recognize the camera. My digital camera is of the older variety. Once I solve that I will load some pics. I have not had a listen yet. Everything is still in boxes. I will set everything up once the HT is rewired on the weekend. Can't wait. The wiring is being delivered Saturday morning so I am in a holding pattern until then.

The delivery worked out great. Since I am within an hour of Sonic Boom an employee delivered them by pickup truck and put all the boxes in the basement with the help of my neighbours. I just nursed my sore back.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Oh man, the anticipation would be KILLING me. :hissyfit:

I can't wait to hear what you think.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Yeah the anticipation is killing me. I took the speakers out of the boxes and was amazed with the build quality. Their solid and alot heavier then expected and the rosenut looks great and will work well in the HT. I will post some pics soon. Sonic Boom informed the AS-EQ1 was shipped today directly to me from SVS and should arrive Wednesday next week. Also the omnimount wall brackets supporting the MBS-01's will be here next week so I cannot wall mount the surrounds yet. The gold carpet spikes for the MTS-01s were missing along with the supports they screw into were missing. I should receive replacements next week. I hope to have the LCR and both subs installed this weekend but I have to finish the rewiring first.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

I unpacked everything except the PB13's. I will unpack them in the HT when the wiring is complete and 
post more pics once everything is installed.

I can't wait to hear what these puppies can do.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Two PB13U's :yikes: I have one and it sounds fantastic I can't imagine what two will be like.:hsd:
The rosenut looks really nice:T


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Thanks Tony. The rosenut was a good choice and will look amazing in the HT. I am loading the pics on my old XP desk top. I gave up looking for a Vista software patch. As I mentioned above I will post more pics once installed. My wife also thought the rosenut looked amazing (bonus). I know I am rewiring but the only thing I can think of is listening to this setup with the 2 ultras.

Stayed tuned. More to come


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

Wow,.. they look great. Can't wait to hear your impression of these speakers.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Thanks Mark. Yeah the rosenut was the right choice. It was however my second colour choice. I actually wanted the textured low gloss black but its not an available colour choice for the MTS speakers. My concern with the high gloss is the potential glare from the projector lamp. 

I can't wait to listen to this system. I am anticipating a huge improvement compared to the inceilings I had previously. 

cheers
Dwight


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Finally completed rewiring the HT and said goodbye to the Inceilings. The MTS-01's are not yet located in their proper positions as I still need to reinstall the acoustical panels etc and the surrounds are not yet installed as the wall brackets have not yet arrived from Omni-mount but I had 10 minutes to at least listen to the L/C/R's. I was amazed how neutral and natural they sound and the imaging is remarkable. The Scan Speak Air Circ's are the best tweeters I have heard. They have a realism to them without any artificial enhancement. I have it set up with the tweeters on the inside. My left speaker is a little bright but it is very close to the side wall and is probably SBIR related. I will install one more acoustical panel on the side wall next to the speaker to solve this problem. I left the tweeter attenuation switch at 0 and did not use the port plugs (on all speakers)as I wanted to get a sense of what these speakers sounded like unadjusted. The midrange/midbass is clear, concise and very accurate. I will reverse the L/R to listen to the tweeters on the outside to see which positions some best.

The centre channel is very clear and accurate. I watched a few minutes of BD movie dialogue and found the voices were extremely accurate compared to my inceiling centre channel that sometimes rendered the voices muddy sounding. 

I continue to be impressed about the build quality of these speakers. SVS does wonderful work. Yes these speakers are heavy and awkward to move around but their solid top to bottom and the magnetic grills are a real nice touch. 

So far I'm smiling. For me it was the right decision to replace the Inceiling speakers. I can't wait to install a fully functional 7.2 system and sit back and listen. These are wonderful speakers and they sound great even without the acoustical paneling in the room thats yet to be reinstalled. I will have more time this weekend to review more BD movies and some 2 channel material. Oh yes I plan on installing 2 PB13 ultras along with the AS-EQ1 tomorrow. My neighbour will help as my back is not 100% yet. Once the wall mounts arrive I will install the surrounds and send some updated pics and reviews. 

cheers
Dwight


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Good news. According to Sonic Boom the omnimount wall brackets will be here Monday. I will be able to install the MBS-01's.


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

Was there ever and end to this story? Great thread, right up tooooooo: Here.

Just curious as how the MTS system worked, pros/cons, pics ect. I also have 2 pbu's and I'm sitting here waiting on the delivery of my AS/EQ-1 as I type this.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Hi Tufelhundin

I am really enjoying the new setup. The audio is so much better compared to the inceiling setup I had previously. The MTS-01's sound very natural and neutral without any colour. My preference is to not use any of the plugs and leave the attenuation switch at zero. These are terrific speakers. I am going to add a 3 channel amp into the mix to increase performance from the L/C/R and let the Pioneer VSX 84tsxi avr drive the surrounds. This should improve performance for the surrounds as well as I am reducing the strain on the avr amp and it should provide the proper juice to the surrounds.

The AS-eq1 has really tamed the PB13's. Without the EQ I found them very boomy and distracting. Now then blend very well with the mains and provide sufficient slam when needed. I have them co located in the front right corner of the HT. Based on REW this was the best location for them. When you get your EQ you will notice a big difference.

I hope this helps

Let me know what you think of the AS-EQ1


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

So far so good, I really enjoy how the bass seems to be everywhere and it seems to be more full I guess you could say. I realize that the ASEQ makes the frequency extremely flat "not refering to the final cert" for I realize that it has been smoothed quite a bit. However, it seems that my old trusty $50 rat shack spl was leaving peaks that I could not see in my graphs even though it seemed to be fairly flat.

The only issue I am having is that I have Vista 64 and after I ran the ASEQ sweep after the initial set up and saved my settings i decided to move my subs and try to see what the next "A" sweep grapg would look like...thats when I found that after all the input and moving of the mic and I wanted to vies the draft cert I would get an error saying that C:\program files..bal bla bla certs is denided. Has anyone else received this?

I have to keep the disc in at this moment if I want to rerun ASEQ, not a biggie..just..I hate Vista anyway. I'm going to install windows 7 on Monday...and I'll see if anythings changes.


Glad to hear you like your MTS set up, I have a friend who really likes my Rocket set up that I have had about 4 years now, but with the situation that has recently happened and what has been going on for some time over there he is looking at the MTS system, and he is hopeing that the center is a good or even better than my Bigfoot. We are planning to head up to Girard OH here in a couple of weeks after we reserve a day with them to listen to an MTS set up.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Yeah, I can walk or sit anywhere in the HT and the bass is flat and sounds very consistent. 
That error message does sounds like a vista issue. I use VISTA and I have not seen that error message before. You should contact SVS to get their opinion on this. I find the SVS crew very helpful.

Yeah take a look at the MTS setup you will be very happy with them. As I said earlier they have made a huge improvement in my HT. I suspect I will get a bigger improvement once I add a 3 channel amp.


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

Yeah, I have been in contact with Doug quite abit here this past week. It's my computer, I'm going to install Windows 7 on Monday and see if anything changes.

Thanks for your thread, its been a good one.


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