# Best buy for $2500?



## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

I have 3200 cubic foot living room. I also have an overworked super cube 2 sub that I have never really liked.

I would like to feel the bass from music and movies at loud levels. I like clean tight bass but I am also a bass head (contridiction?)

I own 2 martin logan preface, Onkyo sr-706, martin logan center (forgot model) and a def tech super cube 2.

I do not have woodworking tools so I will have to wait a while before i DIY.

I have a budget of about 2k- 2.5k depending on value / bang for the buck I will go higher (WAF factor)

Thanks alot !


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

I am hesitating on the Epik Empire because I do not have enough information / reviews on them yet

I really like the Seaton Submersive

I am not sure about the ed a7-900


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

There really is no WAF except for price, she got a bearded dragon and a Big Green Egg grill in trade for me getting a subwoofer. No size restrictions, ugly or pretty does not matter, only sound.

Sorry that my posts have been haphazard. I have been herding my kids whilt the wife went to town.:coocoo:


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

It sounds like you will want a sealed subwoofer.

Martin Logan Depth http://www.stereophile.com/subwoofers/804ml/
Elemental Designs A7-650 
Rythmik Audio F15


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

Yes, i will have to agree with you, a sealed sub would probably do the best job for me. It will help with the low frequencies and one thing that I learned to hate a long time ago was port huffing. The only other thing that I do not like is hearing the speaker leads clacking around in the sub.

I have been looking at the submersive for a while but then the empire came out and threw me through a loop. Could 2 empires be better than 1 submersive?

Could anyone rec a better sub?

Thank you for replying to me. This is the first forum that I have ever posted on.


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

As for the price, I got clearance from the wife to get a Def Tech Trinity. I would rather get something from an online retailer so that there is not nearly as much markup in price.


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## Jason_Nolan (Jul 4, 2008)

I'd be willing to sell you my Trinity for 1600 plus the shipping if you're interested. It will have to go freight. It's in great condition, let me know if you'd like pictures.

Tight bass, loose bass, I think that matters more on how the sub plays the room. You may look into the SVS AS-EQ1 or maybe some other similar product with the purchase of your sub.

Good luck.


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

Thank you Jason_Nolan for the offer. Is the Trinity a good performer compared to some of the other subs out there? One of the first things i did to my super cube 2 was to take the cloth grill off of it because of the noise it made. 

Is room placement easier with the Trinity than the Super cube 2?

I still have a soft spot for def tech because it was my first real subwoofer so i would like to have some more info on the Trinity,


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

I like the look of the SVS AS-EQ and it would do my room a lot of good but it is a bit pricey costing the same as a Epik Empire subwoofer by itself. My reciever has a lower grade of audessey built into it (not the same as the svs-as-eq)

My question would be if it would be easier to get 2 or 3 subs to even out the sweet spots / dead zones in the room and gain a extra Db or 2 in the process or save alot of money on Asprin and get the Eq instead?


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## Jason_Nolan (Jul 4, 2008)

No problem. If you'd like it I may look at another F113 or I may go DIY, just depends. If not I'll keep it. The subwoofer is as almost as good as the f113, and is as good if you were to not use the ARO on the JL. So sound quality is nice. 

As for comparisons to the other subs, all I can compare it to is sound quality of the JL, as these are the only two subs I've had in the same room at the same time. Plus, I've never heard the others. People say good things about the Seaton, that's for sure. 

The thing about buying my Trinity is that you could buy the SVS AS-EQ1 with the money you saves, which makes a huge difference with any sub your purchase. Sub placement is no easier with the Trinity as it will be with anyother sub that doesn't use electronic equalization, which is where the AS-EQ1 will come in for you. YOu'll still want to optimize placement, there is no getting around physics of boundry gain and modal ringing of small rooms. It just doesn't happen. The AS-EQ1 will help.

With your price range I'd also look at two SVS PC Ultra. Two subs are always better than one and people around here seem to LOVE them, I've never heard them myself.

Let me know if you'll be interested in the Trinity or if you have any other questions.

Jason


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## Jason_Nolan (Jul 4, 2008)

If you're thinking about two subs, get the AS-EQ1 or you'll be fighting with the interaction of the subs for a LONG time.

Even for one, it does a lot better job than you can get out of a Denon or whatever, I know I've used them both and taken graphs after the receiver audyssey was ran and also with the AS-EQ1. 

At the price range you're looking at, their is so many subs that are great and you'll be good with about any of those choices. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, but they're incremental at that price point.

Room treatment and EQ will do more to get you that last little extra you're looking for.

As for the supercube2, I would imagine you would be disspointed with that sub in your room. I doubt you will be with the Trinity or any of those other subs you're looking at. Of course, you always want more and would like to upgrade, so you'll be happy for atleast a little while.


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

Thank you Jason_Nolan, you have givin' me alot to think about.

Submersive vs trinity with AS-EQ1

I am going to need to study this for a little bit but the trinity with an eq sounds like it will probably out do the submersive without eq. 

Can I get some other people to chime in on this. When I was looking at the submersive as a speaker I did not do any comparisons to a Trinity (the as-eq1 could make a huge difference):dontknow:


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## Jason_Nolan (Jul 4, 2008)

Either way, you wont be disspointed.

With the submersive, I would think you'd get more output, but a lot worse response curve and ultimately worse sound without the EQ due to your subwoofer is a system with your room

Benefit in getting the Trinity with the EQ is a better sound now, plus you'll have the EQ so later when you want to upgrade, and you will, you'll be able to integrate two subwoofers well. Your second sub could very well be the submersive or you pick up another Trinity or whatever the next best sub is down the line. The future is open to upgrade with the AS-Eq1.

I should get a sponsorship pushing this EQ like this... lol

It does a good job though, especially if you're locked to a certain placement. 

Good luck on your purchase and holler if you need any questions about the Trinity answered.


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

If I decide to get trinity and eq I will get you a SVS hat.:sn:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

My opinion is get two SVS PB13Ultras I have one and two of them would out preform any of the single subs that have been listed. They go really deep and also handle music so very well.


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

Hi Tonyvdb, I agree completely with you that having 2 ultra's would outdo a submersive or a trinity, but it is also at a different price point at $3400. I wish i could justify going that far over budget. I could get one this year and one next year (my wife wants 2 submersives over 2 years) My wife is a severe bass head that likes country music.

:scratch:


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

svs pb13 ultra vs seaton submersive vs trinity

pb13 ultra and trinity would probably have eq


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

toxicbrew said:


> my wife wants 2 submersives over 2 years, My wife is a severe bass head that likes country music.
> 
> :scratch:


Wow, Thats quite a serious amount of bass. although I think two PB13's would be more than enough, Two subversives is going to be over the top.:hsd:


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

My wife probably won't be happy till she sees ripples in the pool outside when she watches jurrasic park. That way she will feel like she is in the movie.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

toxicbrew said:


> My wife probably won't be happy till she sees ripples in the pool outside when she watches jurrasic park. That way she will feel like she is in the movie.


LOL :heehee:


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

I have not run dual subs before and from what i hear it has alot of benefits and also pitfalls.
I was mainly planning on getting 1 sub this year and upgrading to two subs next year if I have the budget. 2500 is a lot of money for me and I, like everyone else, want to get the most bang-for-the-buck out of it. the pb-13 ultra is about $300 cheaper than the submersive and more expensive than the Trinity.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I love the 13U its been a solid performer. Movies have been a real joy to watch since we received it a year ago. Music sounds fantastic with it and I dont think other than DIY that you can get a better sub for the money.


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

Last year i did a lot of research on the svs line of speakers and I slobbered over the ultra but at the time I only had enough money for the super cube 2. I also liked the Epik Conquest, but I missed the boat on that one because they are gone.:crying:
Epic has now come out with the Empire but I have not heard any reviews except by people who were just getting their first subwoofer and therefore not able to compare it to the ultras, submersive, etc.


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

I want to thank everyone for their help by listening to things that I have not heard, or seen. I am going to send off my order by Friday and then begin the worst part...Waiting...


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

Whatever you do get at least 2 subs with 3 or 4 being even better. 

Reason being that one big uber sub will only drive the room for a single spot and the likely hood of the response at the LP and over a large area of the room being even without big peaks or nulls is very slim. Adding another sub or 2 in different locations in room will help to greatly even out the bass response throughout the room without resorting to heinous amounts of EQ which can suck all of the extra power out of the one big sub. 2 or 3 quality medium subs usually trumps one big bruiser in response and output for these reasons. 

3 or 4 Rythmik 15's would be a killer system. Great SQ by all reports and reasonable size/price with the output being greatly boosted by using multiples.


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## Jason_Nolan (Jul 4, 2008)

I would agree with you completely if the purchaser is knowledgable and can set up multiple subs. Getting two to integrate well is difficult, more less 3 to 4.

If you can accomplish it, then I would say this is definitely the best route to take. Being flexible where you place them is the first key, something the OP didn't sound like he was too comfortable with or knowledgeable of the process.

Definitely, 3-4 subs properly integrated would be awesome.


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

I am researching the rythmic 15 right now. Do you think that I would need that svs sub eq to keep the subwoofers from canceling out? I have not used multiple subs befere, nor a sub eq. I hate to admit it but I am fairly ignorant about that. I may be able to deal with phase correction with a Db meter but I don't know about wave cancelations.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

You can get bargain EQ from a Behringer DSP1124D or Elemental Designs eQ.2, each for $100.

+1 on the Rythmik Audio F15!


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## Jason_Nolan (Jul 4, 2008)

Bargain EQ's will not do anything in the time domain for two different subs to play well together and you'll inherently have phase problems. 

This is why it gets really difficult to integrate more than two. 

The SVS EQ is expensive, but it get's the subs to play together well. It's too bad SVS didn't make this EQ work for up to 4 subs, but it does really well with two.

When I tried adding the two 18's in my BP3000TL towers, it never sounded as good as just the two subs running on the SVS. Yes, I had huge output at the modal ringing frequency of my room, and the bass was loud, but it didn't sound good or realistic.

Of course I didn't have the flexibility to move these subs since they were my fronts. But the more subs you have, the more difficult it gets and from what I've seen, your frequency response just starts looking worse. I'm definitely no expert, just my 2 cents.


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## goonstopher (Mar 2, 2009)

It is meant for 2 subs but if you can get 2 subs equidistant from the seating position and mains then those 2 subs would it in phase with each other and could be counted as a single sub in as-eq1.

You can also stack subs into a single sub meaning in the right room you could use up to 4 subs as a single sub and still have the other sub output left


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## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

If I had that size living room I would mount two of these under the floor:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Under-Heavy-Bass-Bombardment-49259.shtml


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## lewdogg (Feb 2, 2010)

HSU ULS-15 DualDrive is probably worth a look...

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls15dualdrive.html


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## toxicbrew (Jan 31, 2010)

Thank you for your suggestions. I have decided on a trinity with a svs eq. Next I will just have to work on placement.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The best way to find a good spot for the sub is to place the sub right in the spot where you will normally sit and play some test tones, music and movie soundtracks while crawling around the outside of the room listening for the best response. Once you hear a good sound response place the sub in that spot.
Corner placement will usually be the best spot as it will give you several dbs of boost but this sometimes causes some frequencies to sound "boomy".


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I really think you should go with a Martin Logan ESL Series (Grotto, Depth, Descent) Subwoofer.
These subs were designed specifically with Electrostats in mind and are fantastic subwoofers if used without Electrostatic Speakers.

If music playback is of high importance to you, I especially recommend ML Subs.
In addition to the Review that was linked, here is a bench test of the Depth : http://www.avtalk.co.uk/showthread.php?t=15239

You could afford dual used Depth i's with your budget. A number of CLX setups (25k Speakers) use the Depth i over the Descent i preferring the integration with the Panel. It really is a great musical subwoofer that also goes down to 20 Hz.
Cheers,
JJ


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I was at most of those sub tests JJ but not the one with the ML Depth unfortunately not, but the results are very good indeed, the group delay is excellent and also the distortion is pretty good too, I can imagine it being an excellent performer with movies and especially music!!


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## halco (Feb 12, 2010)

My vote two epic empires


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## goonstopher (Mar 2, 2009)

halco said:


> My vote two epic empires


Do you own them?

After reading a bit about them I am doubting them. One review said the mfw-15 went lower (OUCH) and I doubt they have a modified amp to deepen the extension.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I would exercise caution if purchasing a MFW-15. While a great design which Mark Seaton consulted on, there have been far too many QC issues and other problems for me to ever recommend it to anyone. While when functional, they compare with Subwoofers which cost multiples of its cost, there have been far too many issues.

I truly regret events and experiences has caused me to feel this way, but the problems cannot be ignored and I cannot in good faith recommend them at this time. I realize the new Plate Amplifier has been more reliable, but there have still been failures and some of the Cabinets have exhibited defects as well.

I hope in time the problems and questionable business practices will be resolved. Because the value and design is fantastic. Sadly, the implementation and response to problems is suspect.
Cheers,
JJ


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## goonstopher (Mar 2, 2009)

You have to be a gambler or want a semi-DIY solution to buy an mfw


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
It really is a shame as had it been reliable and not plagued with cabinet issues, it might be the best price/performance subwoofer on the market. And it looks like a 2 thousand Dollar product too with the Wood Finishes.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dondino (Feb 12, 2010)

goonstopher said:


> Do you own them?
> 
> After reading a bit about them I am doubting them. One review said the mfw-15 went lower (OUCH) and I doubt they have a modified amp to deepen the extension.


On the flip side, I've read a user review that says a single empire blew away his DUAL mfw-15's.

To the OP: At that budget, I would have been all over a single Submersive. And then a 2nd one when I could afford it to appease the wife. 

Also check out the HSU ULS-15 Dual's here.


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## dondino (Feb 12, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> It really is a shame as had it been reliable and not plagued with cabinet issues, it might be the best price/performance subwoofer on the market. And it looks like a 2 thousand Dollar product too with the Wood Finishes.
> Cheers,
> JJ


/agreed

I was seriously considering them but just didn't want to risk it because of the freight shipping/hassle. They sound like an excellent sub value otherwise with B stock as low as 399.


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