# AE 12S Replacement



## runitca (Jun 14, 2012)

Hello, This is my 1st post I have been creeping around the forum for the past month and must admit that I have been very impressed with all the builds and how unique some of the designs are. I would like to try to build my very own set of DIY powered speakers and would like to see if anyone can recommend a a speaker that would work as well as the Acoustic Elegance TD12S. I would just buy these speakers but according to all the posts it looks like the company is having problems filling orders. I have emailed them and called but no response. I would like to try 2-12" with a 8" coaxial B&C.
Any help would be great. Thank you


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## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

runitca said:


> Hello, This is my 1st post I have been creeping around the forum for the past month and must admit that I have been very impressed with all the builds and how unique some of the designs are. I would like to try to build my very own set of DIY powered speakers and would like to see if anyone can recommend a a speaker that would work as well as the Acoustic Elegance TD12S. I would just buy these speakers but according to all the posts it looks like the company is having problems filling orders. I have emailed them and called but no response. I would like to try 2-12" with a 8" coaxial B&C.
> Any help would be great. Thank you


Here is a thread on Parts Express where that was discussed (before I settled on AE):
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=221427

I believe the short answer is: Dayton Audio RSS315HF-8

It's a little lower sensitivity (and I think lower xmax?) - but digs down another octave.

If others have input, please feel free! I've done more research since and not really found a better driver. It's an affordable and low distortion driver. 

For the surrounds that I'm building I'm using RS225 drivers. I didn't really want to use 6" drivers and I don't think the 8" is available from AE (and I wasn't sure I wanted to invest that kind of money in surrounds).


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## runitca (Jun 14, 2012)

Thank you Zeitgeist, I guess the bonus is that the Dayton is cheaper and in stock. I would prefer the AE but there seems to be a great deal of risk dealing with the company as you never know when the speakers will show up. I guess you had pretty good luck with you speakers since you received them, :0)


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## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

runitca said:


> Thank you Zeitgeist, I guess the bonus is that the Dayton is cheaper and in stock. I would prefer the AE but there seems to be a great deal of risk dealing with the company as you never know when the speakers will show up. I guess you had pretty good luck with you speakers since you received them, :0)


The AEs are a good example of you get what you pay for. I love them. Very very well built and excellent performance. I wish they were more readily available. If you order... you will get them... but delivery times are unpredictable.

The Dayon driver is pretty universally well liked, I think that it's a great runner up.


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## runitca (Jun 14, 2012)

Zeitgeist said:


> Here is a thread on Parts Express where that was discussed (before I settled on AE):
> http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=221427
> 
> I believe the short answer is: Dayton Audio RSS315HF-8
> ...


You have also answered another question for me as I ordered a set of the RS225 for a pair of rear speakers. will you be making yours passive?


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## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

I'm planning on trying to make the crossover for the woofer (RS225) to LF section of the 8CXT passive. For my LCRs, that's 9 channels of amplification....... and doing another 12 channels just for the surrounds gets a little crazy. Doing the woofer/mid section of the surrounds (as passive) would knock it down to 8 channels for the surrounds.

I'd probably say, purchase a woofer, an 8CXT a MiniDSP and come up with settings you like before you build anything passive. The other option might be to use Jeff Bagby's Passive Crossover Designer (PCD) to design one... But that requires a little homework -- having impedance (ZMA) files and frequency response (FR) files.

I think that creating a speaker with an 8CXT coax that sounds really good would be very difficult without a DSP of some kind to flatten the response. If you really want passive, I imagine there might be other coaxials that are easier to work with.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

First of all welcome to HTS.

Before anything I need to point out that you may not know what you're getting yourself into with a 3-way DIY speaker using a difficult coaxial driver. Speaker design is complex and while drivers are an important component, they are just that - a component - not a design. You can make dozens of vastly different sounding speakers using the same driver combination - and still miss out on the one that would be defined as an accurate reproducer of the source material. 

Next I want to point out that while the B&C mid/tweeter is nice, it would not be my choice for a coaxial driver - I would go for KEF's Q900 mid with tangerine phase plug. You'd lose some headroom, but nothing meaningful in a home setting by my estimation.

Next let's start by establishing the following:

Do you have loudspeaker measurement equipment (acoustic and electrical)?
Will you be using an active crossover or a passive crossover? 
What understanding do you have of loudspeaker/crossover design?
How much time are you actually willing to invest to get performance worthy of the caliber of drivers in question?

If using an active crossover, you will require at least 4 distinct amplifier channels, and more likely for a full active three-way, six distinct channels. If using a pair of 4 ohm woofers, you will need an amplifier per driver, which hikes that up to eight distinct channels......have you budgeted for this? Budgeting aside, active crossovers are not as simple as choosing electrical crossover orders in the DSP and calling it a day. Electrical crossover slopes and filters are a means to an end - acoustic slopes and response - not the end itself.

If using a passive crossover, there is even more to learn and even more restrictions in place. It's entirely possible some driver combinations simply _won't_ work passively.

As far as the Dayton RSS315 goes, it is indeed a very good driver for a 3-way speaker. Since it uses a 12" metal cone, you will need to pay careful attention to get its out of band cone resonance around 40 or more db below level. Since it is nominally a four ohm driver, you won't be able to run two in parallel without parallel amps.

As far as an alternative driver to a TD12S goes, there are some, especially for a 3-way rather than a 2-way with a higher crossover point (where the value of the AE drivers gets higher and higher)

My first choice would probably be this guy:

http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/products/woofers/12-sb34nrxl75-8/

And I would put _serious _consideration into this:

http://www.amazon.com/JBL-W12GTi-Su...ie=UTF8&qid=1339887849&sr=8-1&keywords=W12GTI

My honest opinion is that before you jump headfirst into pricy driver purchases, to learn about loudspeaker design. Great Drivers don't make for great speakers, any more than fast-twitch muscles alone make for great pro athletes. Would you rather have a Larry Bird or a Kwame Brown? 

If you're still in the learning stages, you may find it best to let yourself learn to design something as basic as a good, reasonably inexpensive two-way, and hear many, many speakers to know what goals you wish to design for, and understand the correlation to measurements. In fact, even making a good countour filter for a 1-way full range driver is a good task to challenge yourself with. You will learn about the "coherency" of a speaker with no crossovers - this is certainly something you should want out of a coaxial drive - and without a reference you won't know what you're designing for.

Beyond that you should also visit live unamplified concerts. A good speaker will not color the live unamplified sound you hear. While a different speakers may give different presentations, you will always want to have some kind of live unamplified reference. 

I would recommend reading Floyd Toole's book for an idea of what kind of goals better speakers strive for and what aspects of measured response may weight higher relative to others in terms of audible consequences:

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reprodu...1339892608&sr=8-1&keywords=Sound+Reproduction


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## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

Thanks for your comments granteedev - I was hoping you'd pop in and offer some advice.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

By the way, as I mentioned earlier, a full range driver is never a bad place to start. The best crossover will always be no crossover, because crossovers are fundamentally a problem. Of course there's no perfect full range driver that can eliminate the need for a crossover, but there's certainly some good ones that can give you a frame of reference.... perhaps the CSS EL70 as an inexpensive choice:

http://www.creativesound.ca/details.php?model=EL70

Learn how to contour its response in a box as a first lesson.


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## runitca (Jun 14, 2012)

Thank you both for you valuable advice. I will be starting a smaller project 1st as per granteed's advice.


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