# What's happened to AVR preouts?



## LightwaveDude (Jul 31, 2006)

This may seem like a simple question to some of you, but what has happened that manufacturers are only putting preouts on their top end models?

I bought my receiver ~ 5 years ago as a sophomore in high school. At the time, I didn't have a real job and could only save up enough money for the Pioneer VSX-515-K. It's been a good receiver to me, but I'd like to integrate a gamut of room correction DSPs and dedicated crossovers to give me finer control over my system. At the time, I would have liked to have bought the VSX-915-K since it had preouts but the extra ~$100 or so was too much for me.

Now that I'm seriously looking again, I'm finding that good receivers with a full compliment of preouts has moved from the $250-350 range to more like the $500-600 range across all of the name brand manufacturers. Currently, I'm running only stereo, and I realize I could find a decent stereo receiver with the preout options, but I have been waiting to upgrade before my receiver before investing in the surround speakers; my goal is to someday go to a 5.1 or 6.1 setup.

Can anybody tell me why manufacturers are limiting their receivers with preout to the higher end models?


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

IMO, That is how these companies make money. They make it so if you want that option you have to upgrade and that means more sales for them. When I buy something like that I really pay attention to how futureproof it is. I know sometning new alway's comes along but hopefully the equipment I buy will last long enough for me to feel good about upgrading.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

LightwaveDude said:


> Can anybody tell me why manufacturers are limiting their receivers with preout to the higher end models?


Put simply, Cost. pre outs just ads more cost to the unit and most people who buy the lower end receivers have little to no knowledge as to what they do so not ever use them.


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## LightwaveDude (Jul 31, 2006)

So are there any manufacturers still making a "low end" model with preouts? Personally, I don't need all of the fancy HDMI converting (I would like HDMI switching however), or the 35 different sound modes that they seem to think is necessary.

The VSX-915 is the best example that I can show right now for what I'm talking about. It had a basic compliment of all the new technologies at the time, but didn't have all of the fanciest specs; it was a well rounded receiver. I just need to find something that offers the same balance with an HDMI input or two with support for blu-ray audio streams.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I think Marantz had a model available for around $350 and I know you can buy an Onkyo 806 refurbished for $499 (the same price as the 706) and thats a stellar deal!


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2010)

I'd imagine cost, as already mentioned, but also, most people who buy the starter AVRs never actually use the pre-outs, but just use it as is.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I have noticed that at least with Onkyo and Marantz they do offer pre-outs on their less expensive models, while for Denon you will need to get the 3310ci or 3311ci which are in the $1,000+ range.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

I believe even Onkyo's even MORE affordable "700" series carries the pre-outs, no? To the OP: You don't have to get near flagship products from some manufacturers -- like the aforementioned Onkyo -- to see pre outs on a receiver; the 700-series Onkyos are far from the company's top of the line models in terms of model heirarchy.

Still, this has always been a debatable discussion amongst enthusiasts -- one way of looking at it is, why would companies not offer pre-outs on lower-tiered models that can definitely benefit from the extra power of an external power amp? And yet another perspective is, at the price level that many buy the lower-powered and tiered AVR models at, most of these folks find no need for external amplification...


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
While not a huge fan of H/K, I do give them props for offering Preamplifier Outputs on many of their lower tier AVR's. To the benefit of European and Asiatic Members, Denon's AVR-2310 offers Preamp Outputs on this Model while the US Market AVR-2310CI omits them.

It is somewhat ironic that the AVR's that would most benefit from an Amplifier are the ones without them. Very valid point stated that many who purchase entry level AVR's would never even consider adding an Amplifier.

With all of this said, not all Preamp Sections in AVR's are created equal. I have especially noticed this when using my Aragon 8008bb. This Amplifier has a relatively low Input Impedance of 22kOhms and since switching from a Pioneer VSX-49txi to my current TX-SR875, I have primarily used my Parasound HCA-3500 instead to drive my Vantages. 

When using my 8008bb with my Onkyo, I have had to apply higher amounts of gain to attain 75db's on my Mains. This was not the case when using the Pioneer. This is not the case with my Parasounds as they both have an Input Impedance of 100kOhms. 

Given that the Pioneer retailed for around 5000 Dollars compared to the 1700 Dollars of the Onkyo, I am not completely surprised.
Here is a Review of the Aragon 8008x3 which mentions the Input Impedance factor when using an AVR as a Preamp:http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_2/aragon8008x3.html

In truth, not very many people use almost 3000 Dollar 2 Channel Amplifiers with AVR's. I went with the VSX-49 because, at the time, MCACC was the only available Room EQ that was integrated into an AVR/SSP. When buying the 875, I was simply too impatient to track down a DTC-9.8 or PR-SC885 SSP as they both were scarce upon release.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> It is somewhat ironic that the AVR's that would most benefit from an Amplifier are the ones without them. Very valid point stated that many who purchase entry level AVR's would never even consider adding an Amplifier.


Indeed, Jack; that's what I was attempting to explain in my response to the OP. I think we're spot on with that. 



> With all of this said, not all Preamp Sections in AVR's are created equal. I have especially noticed this when using my Aragon 8008bb. This Amplifier has a relatively low Input Impedance of 22kOhms and since switching from a Pioneer VSX-49txi to my current TX-SR875, I have primarily used my Parasound HCA-3500 instead to drive my Vantages.
> 
> When using my 8008bb with my Onkyo, I have had to apply higher amounts of gain to attain 75db's on my Mains. This was not the case when using the Pioneer. This is not the case with my Parasounds as they both have an Input Impedance of 100kOhms.


This is something that's news to me -- thanks for that info and heads up! I wouldn't have thought that all preamps of AVRs are not created equal. This is interesting as I was getting ready to start a thread about Onkyo's "IntelliVolume" input leveling system on their AVRs and processor(s) which many, like me, use as sort of a power amp's gain controls or attenuators...

On Onkyos, there is a feature under the Setup Menu's SOURCE SETUP section called "IntelliVolume" which controls the relative volume of each component connected to the AVR (my 8555 stereo receiver has it too) with the purpose of balancing the output volume for each source so one isn't louder or lower compared to another. Like the channel calibration settings, IntelliVolume can be set from -12dB to +12dB. Now, since owning this company's gear, I have always used the IntelliVolume as a sort of "input boosting device" wherein I would crank up, say, the DVD player's input to "+10dB" or so so that its output was rather loud and aggressive at a lower point on the volume readout scale...the problem with setting any IntelliVolume to the "+dB" range is that the AVR actually lowers maximum volume accordingly -- so you're really not pushing any additional wattage or current, only making the power "appear" to come at an earlier stage with more force in your system, like, as I said, a power amp's "gain" control does. 

The thing is, I am beginning to wonder just where this IntelliVolume should be set in using it the way I do, which is, not to "level match" components (as I only have one component hooked up to my 605, which is the BD player) but rather to make the gain seem really high early in the master volume stage. Right now, I have been leaving the BD player input (connected to my 605's HDMI IN 1 and assigned to the "DVD" input) to "+10dB," my logic being why bring the IntelliVolume all the way to maximum of 12dB when this would be like "maxing out" an amp's gain controls; on the other hand, I feel as if an IntelliVolume setting of "+12dB" would allow whatever source component is hooked up to kind of deliver its "maximum output" through the receiver...of course, this is only a personal theory, but I think you all can see my train of thought here...

Is anyone else using Onkyo's IntelliVolume system on their AVRs?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Looks like all the Marantz models in Home Theater mags Buyer guide issue have preouts.:T


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Put simply, Cost. pre outs just ads more cost to the unit and most people who buy the lower end receivers have little to no knowledge as to what they do so not ever use them.


I think Tony put it best, quite simply down to cost although you do find some manufacturers putting pre-outs on there lower end models and I think these have been mentioned by the others.

Generally though people who buy into the lower end are just starting off on what is the AV trail and then start to understand what can be achieved later on, adding power amps is the first step in upgrading and with the likes of Emotiva offering power amps at reasonable costs a better overall sound can be obtained for little cost, and then once you have started upgrading it tends to never stop :spend:


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

recruit said:


> I think Tony put it best, quite simply down to cost although you do find some manufacturers putting pre-outs on there lower end models and I think these have been mentioned by the others.
> 
> Generally though people who buy into the lower end are just starting off on what is the AV trail and then start to understand what can be achieved later on, adding power amps is the first step in upgrading and with the likes of Emotiva offering power amps at reasonable costs a better overall sound can be obtained for little cost, and then once you have started upgrading it tends to never stop :spend:


True, but then consider the other kinds of HT folk, like myself, who are a bit seasoned and aren't just starting out in the hobby, but yet cannot physically afford anything beyond, say, something in the $500 range for an AVR due to absolute budget constraints -- the models like the Onkyo 600-series appear perfect for buyers like that...

BUT, yet, this same buyer (like me) feels after awhile that more power can definitely be used in his or her system and alas, there aren't any pre-outs on the $500 AVR! Then, compounding this scenario, let's say a given buyer in this class of electronics decides to upgrade a different part of their system -- like I did with my Polk RTi12's as the main channels -- now, a beefier power supply is needed and without an AVR with preouts, this is impossible so a completely new processor or AVR must be purchased PLUS the external power amp...:hissyfit: :hissyfit: :unbelievable: :rolleyesno: addle: :rant: :rant:


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Hi osage, Check out Marantz they have models in that price range with preouts plus awesome sound quality.:T


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

bambino said:


> Hi osage, Check out Marantz they have models in that price range with preouts plus awesome sound quality.:T


I'm not in the market for a new AVR with preouts at the moment...:huh:


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Osage_Winter said:


> True, but then consider the other kinds of HT folk, like myself, who are a bit seasoned and aren't just starting out in the hobby, but yet cannot physically afford anything beyond, say, something in the $500 range for an AVR due to absolute budget constraints -- the models like the Onkyo 600-series appear perfect for buyers like that...


Then that is where the S/H market is best looked at or B stock from some of Onkyo's Retailers and a higher model ie 800 series would probably be more accommodating, I know if I could not go past the $500 price tag then that is where I would be looking and as others has mentioned there is still some that have pre-outs on there budget models...


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

recruit said:


> Then that is where the S/H market is best looked at or B stock from some of Onkyo's Retailers and a higher model ie 800 series would probably be more accommodating, I know if I could not go past the $500 price tag then that is where I would be looking and as others has mentioned there is still some that have pre-outs on there budget models...


Indeed, but there are a couple of factors here; first, I always shop new -- and nothing against B-stock or those who wish to expand their options via refurbished -- and I was keeping my personal selections down to this particular brand (Onkyo USA Corp.)...

But as for other brands, yes, it seems there are preouts available on their budget models which seems to be a head-scratcher for brands like the aforementioned Onkyo, that don't want to put them on 600-series models which I don't consider "true entry level" as there are some lower-powered and less-feature-rich models above them...


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Then we come back to the same conclusion and that is cost as regards to Onkyo not including them in the lower models.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Osage_Winter said:


> I'm not in the market for a new AVR with preouts at the moment...:huh:


I wasn't stating you, I was simply saying, obviously you aren't in the market as you would have been asking questions not answering them, I was simply stating a fact. Thanks, Bambino.:T
.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

bambino said:


> I wasn't stating you, I was simply saying, obviously you aren't in the market as you would have been asking questions not answering them, I was simply stating a fact. Thanks, Bambino.:T
> .


It seemed like you were telling me to "check out Marantz" as a suggestion for an AVR with preouts -- that's why I replied the way I did.

No harm done; miscommunication is all. :T


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