# Subwoofer Help



## md0125 (Nov 22, 2012)

Hey guys, I'm fairly new when it comes to creating a home theater, and thanks to some great help and insight from the members here at HTS, I've started to create my first system. I've purchased a pair of Klipsch WF-35s for my left and right fronts and a Klipsch WC-24 center. These will be powered by an Onkyo NR809. (More on this here). 

While I'm waiting for everything to get here (Speakers and receiver are here, just waiting on wires and cable from Monoprice, as well as a media tower which hasn't shown up yet), I've been hooked on building a system and am looking at subs. I'm probably going to wait until after Christmas/New Years until I buy the sub, but am considering my options now and am looking for some help. 

Doing research on past posts and other peoples choices, I've learned that the sub doesn't care much about what one perceives as the living area, but is effected by the entire air volume. I've attached a quick schematic of my apartment. By my calculation the volume of my living room is 1922 ft^3, but since there isn't a physical door to both my kitchen and the "hallway" (yellow shaded region) that total comes up to 3066 ft^3, which is substantial. This volume doesn't account for my furniture, cabinetry or any appliances. If necessary I can do some estimation for the volume with everything accounted for










So firstly, Is there a good rule of thumb when choosing a sub size based on room volume? (i.e. _N_" driver for rooms from _X_ft^3 to _Y_ft^3). Since, I'm trying to have a fairly versatile system I've been really interested in going with an HSU VTF sub, mainly due to adjustability from ported to sealed and some settings in between. I'm really liking the VTF-3 MK4, Its right around the $750-800 range I'm looking at. I've looked at the VTF-15H and think that a 15" sub might be severe overkill. 

Just looking for some input and suggestions. Again, versatility is key, the system will be used for TV/Movies, gaming, and music.

Thanks so much,

Mike


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Hey Mike, they're are a few things to consider with regards to your HT space. First is finding the place for the sub that will propagate the sound the best. For instance, a corner will often times lend tremendously to your room gain. The other thing is proper acoustic treatments, especially bass traps. Those can really help smooth things out. 

3300 cubic feet is quite a bit to account for with a single sub. Have you considered doing multiple units?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

To add to what Dale has said, dont go just by the driver size as there are many subs that are 12" drivers that will out preform a 15 it all depends on excursion of the driver box design and even placement. Its also better to get as much sub as you can for the money as there is no such thing as to much sub for a room that size. In your $750 range your very limited.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

md0125 said:


> Doing research on past posts and other peoples choices, I've learned that the sub doesn't care much about what one perceives as the living area, but is effected by the entire air volume.


That's true, in the strictest sense, but in your case the rule may not necessarily apply. If the only openings you have are a pair of 3' wide doorways you probably don't need to factor in any space other than what your living room measures. Openings that size don't really contribute in a material way, so the 1922 cubic feet is all you'll need to account for. I suspect either the VTF-3 MK4 or VTF-15H would be fine. You might also want to look into the PowerSound Audio XV15. That's another very good sub at an attractive price.


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## md0125 (Nov 22, 2012)

Dale Rasco said:


> Hey Mike, they're are a few things to consider with regards to your HT space. First is finding the place for the sub that will propagate the sound the best. For instance, a corner will often times lend tremendously to your room gain. The other thing is proper acoustic treatments, especially bass traps. Those can really help smooth things out.
> 
> 3300 cubic feet is quite a bit to account for with a single sub. Have you considered doing multiple units?


I've thought about using two subs, but it wasn't something I had considered for the near future. I've recently moved into this apartment after college (First real job, yay!) and I'm not sure if I'll be moving or staying come a years time, primarily looking to create a good starter system. Which leads me into the acoustic treatment, some of the dedicated HT rooms I've read about have bass traps, but to my understanding is they are quite heavy, and need to be secured on a wall. Basically, since I'm unsure of the longevity of my living situation I don't want to get really specific for each component. That being said, If I were to go with a sub that is inadequate for the space, how "bad" will it sound. 

I'll also point out that my only real experience with a subwoofer was an 8" unit that was included with a set of Logitech computer speakers I own(Logitech Z-2300), which I've been informed isn't exactly great :R. I had this speaker set for playing music and its been fine for what my experience have been. This might sound quite blasphemous, but it's all I've known. I guess you could say my virgin ears haven't really heard a good sub.


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## md0125 (Nov 22, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> To add to what Dale has said, dont go just by the driver size as there are many subs that are 12" drivers that will out preform a 15 it all depends on excursion of the driver box design and even placement. Its also better to get as much sub as you can for the money as there is no such thing as to much sub for a room that size. In your $750 range your very limited.


I'm not opposed to spending more money, just means more time saving money before spending. I came up with the ~$800 cap based pretty much on what I've spent already (~$1400 for LCR and a Receiver).




theJman said:


> That's true, in the strictest sense, but in your case the rule may not necessarily apply. If the only openings you have are a pair of 3' wide doorways you probably don't need to factor in any space other than what your living room measures. Openings that size don't really contribute in a material way, so the 1922 cubic feet is all you'll need to account for. I suspect either the VTF-3 MK4 or VTF-15H would be fine. You might also want to look into the PowerSound Audio XV15. That's another very good sub at an attractive price.


I can see that maybe not the entire volume of the kitchen and hallway will be "seen" but I'm not going to completely leave it out, I don't know what a good percentage is too use for effected volume, but I don't want to just rule it out. I will definitely look into the PSA sub.


Another question, since I don't really care about how my system will sound in the kitchen or hallway area, does placing my sub closer to my seating area provide good quality? Or does it work out that this extra volume the sub sees, will cause a downgrade of quality for my living room? I hope that makes sense, I can try and re-word it if not.


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Near-field placement is very common and doesn't create any bass quality issues per se'. That being said, near-field placement is just as susceptible to nulls as any other location.


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Personally I think the XV15 that Jim recommended in the corner of the 16' wall would be plenty for that room.


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## md0125 (Nov 22, 2012)

So while it is important to choose an adequate sub, placement is just as, if not more, important to actual sound quality? I've read about performing the "sub crawl", I'm assuming that the actual location will vary based upon the subwoofer chosen, would it be possible for me to get a general idea by doing a sub crawl with my logitech set? And then would this information actually be relevent based upon how inferior this sub would be to a $750+ unit?


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Well in short, any type of signal that you can get generated under 60 Hz and around 75-80 db from the main sitting position would allow you to find the 'sweet spot' as it were. You will notice it as you should be able to feel the pressure on your head literally.


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## md0125 (Nov 22, 2012)

Alright, I will definitely do that tomorrow when I get home from work. Is it better to use a constant frequency audio track (probably from Youtube or something similar) for the crawl or is bass heavy music/movie adequate enough?

Thanks again, all help is much appreciated.


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

You should be able to find some test tones free for download out there. I would use whatever grants you the higher output. I like to use 40 and 50 Hz test tones but some really bass laden music such as Bass Boy's 'I got the Bass' would work as well.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

I can't get the apartment thingy out of my head. A decent sub is going to rattle your neighbors big time, a sub to cover 3000 ft will make enemy's of them. I don't think you need to get a sub that powerful as long as your in an apartment. I guess you could keep the volume down, but the thing about low frequencies is that they go right through the walls, even at low volume. And a good sub is one that goes low + lots of spl. Not apartment friendly stuff.


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## md0125 (Nov 22, 2012)

Well to be honest, I hadn't thought about the neighbor aspect. Reading threads here on HTS, general consensus is that a sub would have a greater impact to a system than a pair of surround speakers, which I was planning on going for after purchasing a sub. Again, everyone system and situation is unique, so this may vary. A sub is something that I definitely would like to add, but I wouldn't have a problem postponing that purchase, especially knowing that I wouldn't be able to utilize the sub to even say a third of it's capability. Additionally, the longer time I wait to purchase the sub, (even if I end up going for surrounds first) the larger a budget I can save for, which should also increase my options. 

I think it might also be worth noting that the Klipsch WF-35's are rated down to 40Hz. Since I haven't set everything up yet I'm not sure as to how good this sounds, amount of distortion, etc. While this is by no means fantastic, given my situation, the best option for me right now may be to just work on upgrading to a solid 5.0 setup instead of going for a 3.1.

Again, many thanks, you guys are awesome :T


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

I think that's probably a wise move... You definitely don't want to make your neighbors hate you!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Your other option is to get one of these SVS PB 1000's now and add a second one later when you move into a house. This sub will give you very nice bottom end without rattling the neighbors because even though the WF-35's go down to 40Hz it wont be at any meaningful levels.


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## tpcurrie (Nov 27, 2012)

In my direct experience, openings to other spaces are not part of your equation here except to say that your most fun from a sub comes from full or partial pressurization of the listening space. You will have issues with that in your layout since you cannot seal the room from the others, and one sub will not pressurize all of them fully. That said, my livingroom, kitchen, entry are a contiguous space roughly 7800 cuft and a 10" REL sub gives all the impact we want in that room, while looking nice and compact for the space. In the theater (3200 cuft) however, full pressurization, impact, slam, etc requires 2 x 15in and one 12in sub. The point is, you won't know until you try one, but there are lots of considerations in an apartment livingroom other than price, and driver size, neighbor anger and aesthetics are two that come to mind. Placement is also critical, not just for your sub but for your seating. If you place your head in a null for the room, you will be unhappy with any size/power sub. and placement of just one sub cannot correct that.

The HSU VTF-15h will, if properly placed and your head is not in a null, beat up that room nicely for you, but it is massive, nearly waist high and very deep and wide... like a small dog house. 

If I can make a suggestion, big box stores can serve a purpose for you.... grab a sub and try it out, you can return it. Even better would be to use a local specialty audio dealer as a partner. Most of them will have a good sub you can afford, and let you borrow it first, or even help you place and set it up. Just my .02

This stuff is really fun !


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

md0125 said:


> Well to be honest, I hadn't thought about the neighbor aspect.


Spring for a Gramma and half your problem will be resolved. By decoupling the sub from the floor a lot of the transferred vibration will be mitigated. There's an added benefit as well; it reduces the resonances a sub will create in just about every room, making the bass much more enjoyable.


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## md0125 (Nov 22, 2012)

tpcurrie said:


> In my direct experience, openings to other spaces are not part of your equation here except to say that your most fun from a sub comes from full or partial pressurization of the listening space. You will have issues with that in your layout since you cannot seal the room from the others, and one sub will not pressurize all of them fully. That said, my livingroom, kitchen, entry are a contiguous space roughly 7800 cuft and a 10" REL sub gives all the impact we want in that room, while looking nice and compact for the space. In the theater (3200 cuft) however, full pressurization, impact, slam, etc requires 2 x 15in and one 12in sub. The point is, you won't know until you try one, but there are lots of considerations in an apartment livingroom other than price, and driver size, neighbor anger and aesthetics are two that come to mind. Placement is also critical, not just for your sub but for your seating. If you place your head in a null for the room, you will be unhappy with any size/power sub. and placement of just one sub cannot correct that.
> 
> The HSU VTF-15h will, if properly placed and your head is not in a null, beat up that room nicely for you, but it is massive, nearly waist high and very deep and wide... like a small dog house.
> 
> If I can make a suggestion, big box stores can serve a purpose for you.... grab a sub and try it out, you can return it. Even better would be to use a local specialty audio dealer as a partner. Most of them will have a good sub you can afford, and let you borrow it first, or even help you place and set it up. Just my .02


I'm all for going out to a local store, even something like Best Buy as you said, and seeing if I can just test one out. I'll look through the yellow pages or something, (I'm in the Albany, NY area if anyone knows of somewhere good) but with regards to aesthetics or size of the thing, I personally don't care as long as it sounds good. Like I said, just looking for something pretty solid to start off with, this is my first real system and while I'm looking for quality, I don't need something that will break anything when its on.




tonyvdb said:


> Your other option is to get one of these SVS PB 1000's now and add a second one later when you move into a house. This sub will give you very nice bottom end without rattling the neighbors because even though the WF-35's go down to 40Hz it wont be at any meaningful levels.


I'll definitely consider this, I'm not sure how far in the future I'll be moving to a house. I know it's not so much about the driver size, but the actual room and application, but for actual output would going with a 10" driver be something more "neighbor friendly" than a 12"+? Also, just a general question, what dB range would be considered a meaningful level?




theJman said:


> Spring for a Gramma and half your problem will be resolved. By decoupling the sub from the floor a lot of the transferred vibration will be mitigated. There's an added benefit as well; it reduces the resonances a sub will create in just about every room, making the bass much more enjoyable.


That would also be a great help. I guess I should also mention that my apartment is on the ground floor of a three story building. Not sure how much that would effect the bass, but I'm assuming it does have some effect.



27dnast said:


> I think that's probably a wise move... You definitely don't want to make your neighbors hate you!


Well, I'm not looking for them to hate me, but I'm sure the people above me wouldn't mind me playing some music for their pet elephants. :R




tpcurrie said:


> This stuff is really fun !


I couldn't agree more, addictive too!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

md0125 said:


> I'll definitely consider this, I'm not sure how far in the future I'll be moving to a house. I know it's not so much about the driver size, but the actual room and application, but for actual output would going with a 10" driver be something more "neighbor friendly" than a 12"+? Also, just a general question, what dB range would be considered a meaningful level?


Anything below 40Hz you would need to get around 75db for it to be something beneficial. The sub I linked to will do that even in your space but it wont be so loud that your neighbors would really hear it. Yes a 15" sub would definitely be a much bigger problem with regards to the adjoining suits.


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## md0125 (Nov 22, 2012)

So is the 75dB like a midpoint/average output level, or is this the beginning of a range? While ideally I don't want to really bother my neighbors, I'd like the sub to be fairly loud if I wanted it to be, regardless of my neighbors' preferences. I like the SVS option, its a brand I've with good reviews and because it is a smaller sub than I was initially looking at, the price is right. Coming back to my initial want for a versatile sub, I'm looking at the HSU VTF-1 MK2. It's in a comparable price range with the SVS PB 1000, and provides the tuning options between sealed and ported. I'll start looking at reviews for this sub, but what do you think?

Also, when I first started looking at sealed vs. ported with music and movie applications, I didn't get a sense of how bad a sealed sub would "hurt" a movie experience, and the same with a ported sub "hurting" music. So is the difference really significant? Also do to the size of my room (incl. the kitchen and hallway) would the sealed sub that is inadequate be effected more than a ported sub that is of equal inadequance (Is that a word?)


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## Lazerboy2000 (May 7, 2012)

Why not consider something like dual Klipsch RW-12d's? They often go on sale for $300 each so it would be well under your budget but should still give great performance. I can't personally speak about the benefits of dual subs, but I do own 1 RW-12d and am very happy with it. You have a much bigger space than I, so I would think that duals would help remove any nulls and give a better response. Potentially, dual subs could also help with your neighbor situation since you could keep both of them at a lower volume but still get better response than 1 sub.

Go Hokies!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

md0125 said:


> So is the 75dB like a midpoint/average output level, or is this the beginning of a range? While ideally I don't want to really bother my neighbors, I'd like the sub to be fairly loud if I wanted it to be, regardless of my neighbors' preferences. I like the SVS option, its a brand I've with good reviews and because it is a smaller sub than I was initially looking at, the price is right. Coming back to my initial want for a versatile sub, I'm looking at the HSU VTF-1 MK2. It's in a comparable price range with the SVS PB 1000, and provides the tuning options between sealed and ported. I'll start looking at reviews for this sub, but what do you think?
> 
> Also, when I first started looking at sealed vs. ported with music and movie applications, I didn't get a sense of how bad a sealed sub would "hurt" a movie experience, and the same with a ported sub "hurting" music. So is the difference really significant? Also do to the size of my room (incl. the kitchen and hallway) would the sealed sub that is inadequate be effected more than a ported sub that is of equal inadequance (Is that a word?)


See, the issue is that at lower volume levels speakers simply can reproduce the frequencies below 60Hz very well as they are not moving any air. A sub thats designed well is able to reproduce these frequencies even at low volume levels. My issue with the HSU VTF-1 MK2 is that its huge and although a good sub I think for an apartment/townhouse its just to much driver size and not going to be as clean at lower levels. 
75db is a starting point to where it will become noticeable. A sub generally needs to reach this level to be felt but can be heard at levels lower than that. If your trying to not bother the neighbors your not going to want to use a sub that goes really deep at high SPL as those frequencies will be much more obvious to people below, above or next to you.


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## md0125 (Nov 22, 2012)

Lazerboy2000 said:


> Why not consider something like dual Klipsch RW-12d's? They often go on sale for $300 each so it would be well under your budget but should still give great performance. I can't personally speak about the benefits of dual subs, but I do own 1 RW-12d and am very happy with it. You have a much bigger space than I, so I would think that duals would help remove any nulls and give a better response. Potentially, dual subs could also help with your neighbor situation since you could keep both of them at a lower volume but still get better response than 1 sub.
> 
> Go Hokies!


So if I were to use a dual sub at lower volumes would their be a constructive gain without really rattling the walls? This seems like a possibility but would require near-perfect placement to maximize the response for listening. I'll add the Klipsch option to my list. I did a quick search and the lowest price for the sub i could find was $500, so hopefully it drops down after Christmas when I really will be looking to buy one. 




tonyvdb said:


> See, the issue is that at lower volume levels speakers simply can reproduce the frequencies below 60Hz very well as they are not moving any air. A sub thats designed well is able to reproduce these frequencies even at low volume levels. My issue with the HSU VTF-1 MK2 is that its huge and although a good sub I think for an apartment/townhouse its just to much driver size and not going to be as clean at lower levels.
> 75db is a starting point to where it will become noticeable. A sub generally needs to reach this level to be felt but can be heard at levels lower than that. If your trying to not bother the neighbors your not going to want to use a sub that goes really deep at high SPL as those frequencies will be much more obvious to people below, above or next to you.


So I guess the optimal option for my current situation is to try and find a sub with a fairly deep response and a low SPL level (I think). The question is, is this possible, and even more so is it possible for a reasonable price? Also, having a sub to go so low with a high SPL is something people that I would really like. I love being able to feel bass in my chest, but that probably isn't going to happen so not as to really disturb anyone in my building.

Also, I compared the SVS PB1000 you suggested with the HSU VTF-1 and they seem very similar in box size (which I'm assuming correlates to the internal volume), driver size, and price. They are both rated down to the 25Hz range, so I'm unsure what you mean by how clean they will be.

Thanks


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## wheatenterrier (Jan 16, 2009)

I am also shopping for subs. I will go with dual subs. The reason for this is not ouput, I don't view it as I'll get x higher output with 2 vs 1 although there is an improvement.

To me the biggest reason for choosing dual or even quad subs is Bass uniformity. It seems that you can tweak, tune, EQ etc one sub for where you sit. But with two subs you are more likely to have larger area of sweet spot bass. 

I want more people in the room than just me to experience the bass the way it should be. It's not fun for some one else in the non ideal seating position to have some nasty peak smashing their brain x frequency and nulls in other frequency's.


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## Lazerboy2000 (May 7, 2012)

Any luck deciding on which subs you are gonna go with? It would be interesting to see what you chose based upon your room size and other limitations.


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## Pigman (Nov 21, 2012)

I just recently purchased a Hsu vtf-2 mk4 and all I can say is wow! I upgraded from a Polk psw10. Believe me it is quite a step up from that model of Polk to the Hsu. The effects in movies are now amazing. Powerful, clean, and tight are all adjectives I would use to describe the Hsu. Granted I don't have a ton of experience with different subs, but the Hsu is a whole world of difference from the Polk. I really don't think you would be disappointed with a Hsu.


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