# "The Dave Cave" is finally underway !!



## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

With the help of a few other HTS members I have taken some advice and got this home theater ball rolling. I'm in the construction phase of a dedicated light / sound controlled small home theater ( unfinished 11'10" wide by 15'4" deep ). It is for movie watching, hd tv, and some gaming. It will be 90% movies / tv ( 1080 epson projector ). I'm setting it up for 7.4.4 all controlled by a Denon X4400H with separate amplifiers. I know this may sound like alot for the given dimensions but I'm going for it. The atmos speaker locations have a few options and what primarily brings me to the site today. I need some input on the atmos locations please. 
Because of the joists and duct work, my speaker locations are limited. I had my son sit in the MLP.... I should add that all sound decisions made are for the MLP. The rest of the seats get what they get. From the seat I took measurements to his ears with the speakers on the floor. The ceiling is 7'10" ( also unfinished ) so I know the distances will be about 30% longer but the ratios will be the same. I can either go a little closer to the MLP or a little farther.








The closer distance's are more uniform for the MLP and almost even. The front distance is 42" with the rear at 44". This feels too close to the seat for me just when I look at it. 








The farther distances are 60" to the front and 51" to the rear. This feels better when I look at the pics but now they are no longer as uniform as the closer measurements. 








Pics attached please fire away any and all questions. Thanks in advance for any replies and thoughts.

Dave


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

maybe i could do this?? the seat location is still fluid... i can move it forward 4". this lowers the front distance to 56" and increases the rear to 55". this will also allow me to move the second row up just a bit to add some space to the back wall. the side surrounds were directly to the side of the MLP ( 90 degrees ). this will put them slightly behind that main seat. the only set back is i lose that viewing distance to the screen. i was at 100" with 8'6" distance. what do you all think?


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

here is how the layout looks with the slight seat adjust. those view distance numbers were the final... 100" screen with 8'6" to the main front seat.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

i went wide with the location and that was the right decision. the 4" of forward seat motion is not bad at all.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Looks like a really nice project! I hope it turns out to be what you're anticipating.



david yurik said:


> this will also allow me to move the second row up just a bit to add some space to the back wall.


I realize you're only concern is the MLP, but just one observation from me regarding the back seats... the closer they are to the rear wall the more bass reinforcement they'll get. During large dynamic transients - which many movie soundtracks have - those people could get flooded with what may prove to be overwhelming amounts of bass, especially if you plan to listen with elevated volume. You may be locked into that seating configuration but I thought it was at least worth mentioning.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

theJman said:


> the back seats... could get flooded with what may prove to be overwhelming amounts of bass, especially if you plan to listen with elevated volume.


I have two passive 10" older ported paradigm DVC enclosures that I drive with Rotel 90 wpc on each voice coil. It's not earth shaking but it's felt all over the house when they are going. I was going to put those in the rear corners. I have an ep-4000 and was going to use that for two 15" subs ( diy ) in the front of the room. My plan is for chest pounding bass that will need the level to be adjusted down because it was just too much. Am I going about this wrong? Is there a better approach to way too much bass ?? Should corner bass traps be part of this plan?? I can't say as I have ever heard too much bass. The more the better !!


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## BP1Fanatic (Mar 28, 2011)

Can't wait to see the finished build!


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

david yurik said:


> I have two passive 10" older ported paradigm DVC enclosures that I drive with Rotel 90 wpc on each voice coil. It's not earth shaking but it's felt all over the house when they are going. I was going to put those in the rear corners. I have an ep-4000 and was going to use that for two 15" subs ( diy ) in the front of the room. My plan is for chest pounding bass that will need the level to be adjusted down because it was just too much. Am I going about this wrong? Is there a better approach to way too much bass ?? Should corner bass traps be part of this plan?? I can't say as I have ever heard too much bass. The more the better !!


Sounds like you'll definitely achieve your goal - having so much bass it will have to be turned down - but that could be a good and bad thing.

There are two locations you never want to have seating positions; up against the back wall and dead center of the room. The former overemphasizes bass and the latter does the exact opposite. Traps can help, but to eliminate it they would have to be several feet thick - think anechoic chamber - which isn't practical in a home theater. Bass overload tends to make people feel a 'pressure' sensation, which in small amounts can add to the tactile sensation of a movie soundtrack. Too much however and the sensation quickly becomes unpleasant, and over a long period of time it's downright annoying.

I also see one other potential concern; different subwoofers. Trying to integrate disparate subs can be quite difficult, and in some cases not possible. The differences in capabilities between the 10" and 15" models is likely to be rather significant. If so you may never get them to blend correctly. The proverbial weakest link in the chain; the 10's will drag down the 15's. If you are going to try and integrate them at least be sure they're the same alignment; ported/ported or sealed/sealed, never ported/sealed. Unless you're an expert at tuning a system the latter is all but impossible (and even for those with years of experience it still may not be achievable).


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

theJman said:


> I also see one other potential concern; different subwoofers. The differences in capabilities between the 10" and 15" models is likely to be rather significant. If so you may never get them to blend correctly. The proverbial weakest link in the chain; the 10's will drag down the 15's. Unless you're an expert at tuning a system the latter is all but impossible (and even for those with years of experience it still may not be achievable).


I am no expert by any means. Pure novice doing his first home theater here.

I don't have the 15's yet and only have the ep-4000 amp. I can pre wire and set it all up so when the 15's are done, I can test, mix, match, and actually see what the sound differences are. I'm handy with the standard word working tools so the 15" plan was a marty sub or maybe SI / AES. John at AES was really responsive so that was my current front runner. The existing 10's are ported. I'll put up a picture later tonight for reference. 

I was leaning to sealed 15's just because it would be easier for me to build. I didn't feel the need to build the lowest tuned box for 15 Hz or even to run any sound tweaking diagnostics once complete. I had no idea it was so difficult to mix and match. I assumed ( dangerous to do I know ) it would be no different that big full range front floor standing speakers and then adding dedicated subwoofers. Why does that not apply here? If fronts were full size with a 10" woofer I would never think twice about adding subs. I'll do some additional searching and see what I can find. 10's pulling down the 15's VS. adding to / rounding out the sound field.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

david yurik said:


> I don't have the 15's yet and only have the ep-4000 amp. I can pre wire and set it all up so when the 15's are done, I can test, mix, match, and actually see what the sound differences are. I'm handy with the standard word working tools so the 15" plan was a marty sub or maybe SI / AES. John at AES was really responsive so that was my current front runner. The existing 10's are ported. I'll put up a picture later tonight for reference.
> 
> I was leaning to sealed 15's just because it would be easier for me to build. I didn't feel the need to build the lowest tuned box for 15 Hz or even to run any sound tweaking diagnostics once complete. I had no idea it was so difficult to mix and match. I assumed ( dangerous to do I know ) it would be no different that big full range front floor standing speakers and then adding dedicated subwoofers. Why does that not apply here? If fronts were full size with a 10" woofer I would never think twice about adding subs. I'll do some additional searching and see what I can find. 10's pulling down the 15's VS. adding to / rounding out the sound field.


A Marty is ported, but your second paragraph suggests you're going sealed instead? That's going to be your first decision, ported or sealed.

You have two issues; the significant capabilities gap between the 10's and 15's and the difference in phase between ported and sealed. When a ported subwoofer gets to its port tune the phase of the output inverts because the sound is now coming mostly from the port and not the driver. Unless all your subwoofers do the same thing at the same frequency you've just created a huge null, something that will be pretty evident. You can't EQ that out.

Your room is pretty small so it will reinforce the lower frequencies anyway. In a situation like that sealed is often preferred because they have a more gradual roll off than ported, something that works very well when the room will be offering considerable reinforcement.


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## BP1Fanatic (Mar 28, 2011)

theJman said:


> Bass overload tends to make people feel a 'pressure' sensation, which in small amounts can add to the tactile sensation of a movie soundtrack. Too much however and the sensation quickly becomes unpleasant, and over a long period of time it's downright annoying.


You guys need to visit avsforum.com. People are bolting JBL 12's, 15's, and 18's to their couches along with bass shakers. They are sealing the woofers to the floor with 26" bicycle inner tubes. Search Hover Boss.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

I'm a product reviewer at AVS so I'm there quite frequently.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

theJman said:


> A Marty is ported, but your second paragraph suggests you're going sealed instead? That's going to be your first decision, ported or sealed. Your room is pretty small so it will reinforce the lower frequencies anyway. In a situation like that sealed is often preferred because they have a more gradual roll off than ported, something that works very well when the room will be offering considerable reinforcement.


I was leaning sealed but had not made that final decision. To me it matters most that I feel like the bass is a ludicrous amount. If two sealed 15's in my smaller ish room can provide that, I can save myself some subwoofer box building headache and rack space. I'll put two of the Rotels back in the box and sell off the passive subs. I can just use the Behringer to drive the 15's. Attached are the Paradigm pics. Ignore the jumpers. That's how I ran them off the Behringer. To be honest I liked them more off the Rotel's.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

I also got the power relocation panel mounted next to the projector. I wanted it a little closer but once the lights are off and a movie is on... no one will be thinking about how that panel could be 8 inches closer to the projector. The power cord only reaches so far without needing some kind of splice. I didn't really want to do that in the ceiling.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

I just couldn't take the projector wires being so far away from the projector so I added a box, some 14/3, and moved it. I mounted the construction boxes for the speaker wire locations. I have a few that wont be on wall studs so they are not in yet. FC for example will be a drywall mounted post construction box in the center of the FL and FR. The same for my home runs locations back at the rack. There will be 5 boxes total. 

The top row of two is the projector on the left ( wires hanging ) and the atmos speakers ( already mounted on the stud ) on the right. 

The middle row of two will be the 3 fronts in the left box and the 4 surrounds in the right box ( also already mounted on the stud). 

The single lower box will be alone in the bottom row centered. This one is for the sub-woofers. The sub boxes in the room are the 4 boxes on the walls in the corners mounted 16" off the floor.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Seems to be coming along very nicely.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

theJman said:


> Seems to be coming along very nicely.


thanks jim.

apparently i need to go back to elementary school and practice some addition. my wire measurements were way off. i'm about 75' short and monoprice is oos till 7/6... ugh !!

dave


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

75 feet?! Maybe it's time to use the ol' calculator... 😄

Check out Blue Jeans Cable. I've had good luck with their stuff. Mediabridge is another quality manufacturer.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

Well it's been awhile but I finally got the drywall complete. Here are some pic updates. Two outside the room and two inside the room. Next step is the flat black paint. Leaning to HD Behr at the moment. I have some gift cards from work so the out of pocket expense is 0 to purchase from HD.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

Another long overdue update. The drywall is painted flat black on the front and a darkish gray on the sides and back. The ceiling will be t-bar / drop eventually. Again black. The front speakers are just sitting on chairs ( shelves to follow ) behind a sheet ( spandex screen to follow ) stapled to the floor joists. Nothing too fancy !! Its 125" picture at the moment. I can go a little bigger but at 7' viewing distance it's pretty big.



























The lights I picked up off ebay cheap, $120 for all 6. I love the barn door look. The led controller was regular price at HD. I read many articles about compatibility between controllers and lights so I spent a little here on the Lutron $60 and the Phillips lights $25 themselves. The small fob slides off the mount and I keep that in my hand till the movie starts. It steps up and down with a preset button in the middle. The preset is low through the trailer then lights go off for the movie. 





















Every speaker is home run from the speaker all the way to the amplifier banana plug. That was very intentional. I wanted as few possible breaks in the runs as I could get. 

The only speakers on the Dennon X4400H are the 4 surrounds. The 4 atmos ceiling and two 10" passive subs are all on individual Rotel RB956AX's. Each sub has DVC's so the 956 runs with all 3 channels bridged sending 90 wrms to each of the voice coils. They are nice but definitely not enough !! Is it ever enough ?? The ceiling atmos are all fed from the Rotel in stereo so 65 wrms to each. Up front the M&K's are fed from another Rotel. The 976 mk ii sends 150 wrms to each speaker again running in bridged mode. I have the Acurus back in the box. Once it was in the rack I decided I wanted everything on Rotel. I will sell that to recoup some costs .... well that's what I told the misses anyway !!





















Any questions please ask. I didn't want to bore anyone with too many nonsense details. It sounds fantastic !!


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

I drew out the frame dimensions and picked up the wood yesterday. Oak was quite expensive by the LF so I went with poplar. 1 x 4. I have a Kreg jig so it will all be assembled with pocket screws. I haven't decided if I am going to put a molding piece around the front yet. I am leaning to no and just setting the vertical runners back a 1/16" to make sure they don't touch the screen.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

Got the screen frame done and tried to use a king size sheet temporarily. It just wasn't quite big enough !! The spandex is on order.








Front shelf is done. I need to add some kind of foot or rubber to the speakers to prevent sliding.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

The spandex fabric showed up today. I still need to paint the frame and adjust the center supports. They're a bit too far out and need to be closer to the center.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

I didn't like how close the supports were to the FL and FR so I moved them in just a bit.








I held them in place for the Kreg screw with some of Harbor Freight's best !!








Then painted the back flat black.








Tomorrow I'll coat the front and the sides.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

The black Friday purchase is on its way !! Two 15" woofers. Now if wood prices would just go back to normal !!


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

Some boxes showed up !! FI Audio Xv3 15" dual 1 ohm voice coils. 5-6 cu ft box to be built.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

I also set all the speaker levels to 70 db with this little gem.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

During the screen build I tried playing an image on just the black spandex. It was not good. Next adequate performer ( as expected ) was just a white sheet. And of course the best is the double layer spandex white over black. When I first played a few scenes, I noticed the light levels shifting. The Epson was set to some kind of auto light adjust. I changed that to a fixed cinema bright. The difference was night and day. The other huuuuge change was the amount of reflected light. I had so much of it before with just the sheet. No surprise there. I hoped the flat black front wall would absorb that and while it did some, it still reflected. With the black spandex now behind the white, almost no light at all is reflected off the sides and back into the room. You can really tell in the Avatar pic. The sides and bottom around the screen are all dark now.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

seats are ordered.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

I built the riser today. I can't get anything bigger than 72" around the basement landing so I had to build two matching sides. The seats line up with the front to back joists. The extra set on the sides is for my smaller 10" subs. They will start out in the corners so a little extra support was in order.














I screwed the two sides together in the middle with 5 deck screws.








I hot glued carpet pad to the bottom of the frame so it kept the wood off the concrete and provided a little extra leveling.








I ended up at 8" of total height with 1 layer of 1/2" OSB. This may turn into two we will see.








Dave


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

Tonight was the carpet tack strip and pad for the lower floor. Those concrete nails are way beefier than the regular wood nail on the strip. I found it best to really hit them well and as straight as possible. I was averaging about 6 to 8 blows to sink them into the wood on the tack strip. I only have to make two fixes of the drywall !!








I'm still not sure what to do about the riser floor. The actual use will be so small I might just grab a gray remnant to offset the main area a bit. Lower floor black chairs black carpet. Riser chairs gray base gray carpet ??














These were good for maybe 2 passes on the pad. I also had to push pretty hard against a piece of 2x4 to make a decent cut. I now see why installers use actual quality blades for cutting.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

I made some progress this weekend.... I can now add carpet installer to my list of DIY skills.


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