# fdelin's theater plans - Currently Fabric Wall dillema



## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

Hi all,

I thought I'd crosspost some info from my introduction post for folks who didn't see it:

Hello Everyone,

My name is Frank and I have been doing an equipment upgrade to my 2001 lineup. We purchased a new home a year ago and I've got some time to try changing my current TV/Movie viewing area into a bit more of a home theater. Basement room, half of it is under grade, about 12 feet wide, 8 feet high(other than where the soffit runs), and about 22 feet deep.

I've got a 5020 Pioneer Kuro and a wall mount ready to go, a Denon 3808ci that I use for AVR and no seperate Amp, A collection of Polk RTiA series of speakers coming(no sub, that's the one hold over for now from the old system, a 150 watt 10" yamaha powered sub) that I'm going to use in a 7.1 configuration.

I'd like to do up a nice fabric wall system and a few acoustic treatments and I'm looking for some advice.

I'm planning on doing a fabric wall around the entire space with a few faux columns to put sconces on. I need to block a couple of windows and doors and figured that 4'x8' fabric panels french cleated to the existing drywall walls and maybe magnetically attached at the bottom would be the best marriage of aesthetics and access to places I don't want permanently covered.

I guess my big question is do I want to back those panels with damping material, something like the OC703 that I read about in the DIY acoustic treatment threads? I'm planning on fronting them with muslin, maybe a plum color, we've got some purplish furniture that's currently in our living room upstairs that I think I'd like to swap out with the super sized sectional we have in the TV room right now.

Thanks


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi Frank

Some of them yes, some of them no. You don't want the entire room dead and only in the upper mids and highs. You need a balanced solution based on usage and the room size. You'll also need some thicker panels in places for bass control. 

Bryan


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

OK, So would I be looking at the whole front third and then trying to find spots where I want to cut down on mid/high reflections?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Do floor to ceiling for the first third and then up to maybe 5' high for the balance. Leave the top a bit more reflective. On the rear wall, use something thicker and use a facing on it to allow bass control but not kill the upper mids and highs as well as the surround field.

Bryan


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

*Re: fdelin's theater plans*

Brilliant, I have a plan. Now all I have to do is find someone in the Iowa City/Cedar Rapids area that sells 703.

Thanks, that was unbelievable fast and helpful.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

If you can't find OC703 specifically, see if you can find a Johns Manville distributor. Their JM814 is basically identical to Owens Corning 703.

If you still can't find anything, drop me a PM. We'll get you hooked up.

Bryan


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## SierraMikeBravo (Jul 1, 2007)

I actually approach things a little differently. I try to use some type of diffusion/absorption (ex RPG Diffsorbers) in my first reflection region. Works really well.


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

Well, I just got done taking the desks and computers out of the back of the room and once I get the rest of the associated stuff out I'll take some pictures and post them. I've also got the house plans that I can scan to get a feel for the size of the space. 

My RTiA5s and 3s arrived today. They look so nice, can't wait to hook them up.


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

Here are a few shots of the space, as you can see I've got some windows in the rear and doors on the front and side to deal with. That's the reason I am planning on french cleating the panels in, so that I can move them easily to access the doors and windows if I need to. I am planning on covering the backs of the wall panels with some kind of paper that's thick enough to block light but which isn't a vapor barrier.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/index.php?n=3018


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

Here are the house plans, both original build plans and what actually got put in

http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/index.php?n=3019
http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/index.php?n=3020

Now given that I'll have 1.5 less inches all the way around if I frame with 2x2s I'll basically have a 12' by 23' rectangle give or take a half an inch.

Still working on wife buy-in buy the current plan is to put a rise in the 5 and a half feet that are behind the hallway in the back and bring down the sofa/loveseat from the main floor and put the sectional up there. Couch in front of the hallway, Puts my primary seating 9' and change from the rear and around 14' from the front. I have Polk FXi A3s coming for the side surrounds that'll at the same depth as the primary seating if my understanding is correct.

I'm either going to put the electronics in a nice stand under the set or in that little 2 and a half by 3 foot nook by the stairs.

Pointers on things I'm off on?


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## SierraMikeBravo (Jul 1, 2007)

Hi Frank,

I guess I am a little lost as to what you intend to do? Is the second drawing the one you intend to build, and if so, is this a basement or the upstairs?


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

I'm sorry, let me explain in a little more detail. 

The first scanned image shows what my house plans show. I assume that is the stock layout for this model of home that the builder shows folks.

The second doctored image is how the basement is actually layed out. They took the bathroom and moved it to the outer wall, next to the area I'm going to use as the theater. They moved the utilities along the wall next to the stairs which I have also been using as grand central for cables. The hallway now runs between the utilities L and the bathroom.

Looking it over again tonight I'm thinking of reversing the current layout of the room. The end of the room on the top of the drawing doesn't have the transition from the stairs to worry about and if I ever decide to do a large stage or move up to projection later I think it'd be a better option. I'm going to have to cover the windows on that end anyway.

OK, I did a quick picture










Grey is the new wall I frame out to put the TV on, L C and R are obvious, S for surround placement, blue areas for seating and the red area is the equipment closet.

No indication of fabric walls or columns or anything, it's quick and dirty....


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## SierraMikeBravo (Jul 1, 2007)

Hey Frank,

Ok. What is the area (appears to be closet or storage underneath stairs?) adjacent to the stairs used for? It isn't labeled.

Thanks
Shawn


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

That's where the furnace, hot water heater, sump pump and water softener are located.

If I'm reading the numbers at http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm correctly, if when I frame in the new wall in front if i simply were to fabric it rather than drywall it and then fill it with good old fashioned pink insulation I'd have plenty of absorption?


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## SierraMikeBravo (Jul 1, 2007)

Hi Frank,

Yes, you can build the wall, but I would leave it acoustically transparent (relative term) and not insulate the wall itself. Do it behind the speakers. However, this all depends on how much depth you have allowed for your speakers to be placed. In addition, using standard pink insulation is nowhere near dense enough to provide any adequate sound absorption in the lower mid-range frequencies (the middle of the audio spectrum is 500 Hz). Place it on the wall behind the speakers, but this leads to the next problem as you need high efficiency absorption that can handle speakers being close to it due to SBIR...again this leads back to how much room you have left for your speakers between the AT wall and your back wall. Regarding other design issues, I would look at possibly trying to make the room as rectangular as possible and leave the doorway you have depicted near the front right side out of the equation...or at least place a door there. This looks to be right around your first reflection point which is highly important. You need to place treatment right around there, but I would not go with strict absorption at this location as you will literally collapse the front sound stage and make the room sound as big as it really is. I aim for trying to expand beyond the walls. Also, leave your speakers enough room to play with them. Strictly adhering to a specific spot will not yield great sonic benefits for you unless specifically designed to do so. Hope this helped!


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Good ideas Shawn

I will disagree slightly with one thing. Standard wall insulation can actually do a very good job if 6" thick or more. 

R-19 with paper out - 0.94 1.33 1.02 0.71 0.56 0.39

2 layers R-19 - 1.14 1.09 1.09 0.99 1.00 1.21 (no paper)

Bryan


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## SierraMikeBravo (Jul 1, 2007)

Hey Bryan,

You are absolutely correct. I know that you know this, but for the benefit of others, you can achieve the same absorptive qualities as rigid fiberglass provided it is thick enough. You eventually achieve the same density as rigid ductboard but you achieve it through volume. In addition, it is soooo much easier to work with rigid fiberglass since...well, it's rigid! My thoughts are, stick with the rigid stuff outside walls and enclosures, and the pink stuff in the walls and enclosures...you'll be much happier.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Agreed completely if you can get it at a reasonable price. For some folks, it's just almost unobtanium or ridiculous to ship to them. In those cases, you can use the lighter stuff as a substitute.

Bryan


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

One thing I wanted to clarify is that I am planning to have the L/C/R speakers in front of the front wall. They are so pretty it would be a shame to hide them . I'm going to run them without grilles for movie viewing late night, post bedtime for the munckin.


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## SierraMikeBravo (Jul 1, 2007)

^^^^

Uh, oh...now you have me confused again. :scratch: Are you saying the the front wall is just going to be a wall, or is it an AT wall? This leads to a whole host of other questions. What type of screen are you going to use...projector...rear projection...panel? Are you building the wall just to hide acoustical material? I thought you had intended to hide your speakers behind the wall, so I am a bit confused as to what you are building the wall for exactly?


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

It's just a wall, I need to cover the window back there. I've got a Pioneer 5020HD that I need to mount. The problem is that the window well is at the same height as I want to mount the panel. I'm back and forth though. I think wall, then I think maybe a box, MDF front and rear to block the light and to mount the panel to. 

If I did a wall, I'd do it a couple feet out in case I ever wanted to go AT. I'm kind of trying to future proof too in case I decide to go projector and screen down the road.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

What he's referring to is to build the usual wall to deal with the window. Then, build another wall with just studs and cloth to hold the screen, hide the treatments, speakers, etc. probably 2' in front of the real wall. Very common in nice HT's

Bryan


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

Exactly, I've got length to work with, I just keep going back and forth on how much of an investment of money, time etc I want to make.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

What you need to do FIRST is establish primary row seating position based on REAL room length. That never changes. Everything else revolves around that.

Bryan


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

I took a closer look, fine toothed comb this time. I think my only option is to build the wall right against the other one. There's a pair of HVAC outlets less than 16" out and I'll need to anchor left and right. There's power and an outlet to the cable system in the house that I feed with my HD-DVR. I'm planning on expanding the existing soffits in the room to go the rest of the way around the perimeter, they'll improve the aesthetics and allow me to run the rest of the stuff over there.


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

OK, Here's a quick drawing of near and far walls, the front and rear are pretty trivial. I think the panels will actually be 51" wide, not quite golden ratio but quite close. It is however, 48" + 2 by 1.5" for framed panels. The gold lines are just a thought, maybe some kind of accent, maybe a chair rail, not sure. Hmm, OK, quick edit with some extra math, If I do the bottom panel in a side ways golden ratio I get a rectangle, 32" by 51" if I do a 2" detail there I get a 51" by 51" square on top which should both be visually appealing and work out to the same 48" + 2 by 1.5" size with frame. So 3 and a quarter pieces of 703 per panel. Still puts me at a weird 42 panels required, I guess I can use the odd ones out when It comes time to make bass traps/soffit trim/etc....


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

The hvac ducts being behind the false wall won't be an issue. The false wall would be just studs and acoustically transparent cloth. Air will freely pass through it.

Bryan


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## SierraMikeBravo (Jul 1, 2007)

Or...

you could make your side elevations look something along these lines...










Just for your reference, there are no "golden" rules regarding panel dimensions.


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

Is that wood paneling? Isn't it reflective? 

Bryan, can I put 703 in the 2x4s framing the front wall or does it need to go on top of it?


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## SierraMikeBravo (Jul 1, 2007)

fdelin said:


> Is that wood paneling? Isn't it reflective?


It is reflective and it is also absorptive (depends on how thick and what type the wood is ), but are we all that concerned with reflectivity below a chair rail? To some degree yes, but mostly no. Don't take the above drawing to scale nor as a true room. It was not intended to be that way. All it is depicting is some ideas. No sound aspects of sound analysis was done for this room. 



> can I put 703 in the 2x4s framing the front wall or does it need to go on top of it?


No sure what you are quire asking here, but if you plan to permanantly enclose 703 inside of a wall, I would not do it. If it gets wet, it will cause mold to grow. Good luck!


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

If you mean don't drywall the front wall, that will impact isolation severly. Doing it on top of the drywall is a better solution.

You can do some wood on the bottom but not with 4" or so of ear level. Some folks make the inlays cloth and just strips of trim to frame it.

Bryan


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## SierraMikeBravo (Jul 1, 2007)

> You can do some wood on the bottom but not with 4" or so of ear level. Some folks make the inlays cloth and just strips of trim to frame it.


Or it could be sound panels framed into wood panelling. 

Bryan is correct. Don't take my drawing to scale as it isn't. It is just intended for interior ideas. I give you the cart, but not necessarily the horse.


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## fdelin (Oct 29, 2009)

No, I'm not drywalling the wall I framed(almost done) so I can still access the window if need be. It's only 1 and a half inches from the wall behind it. I was just wondering if I could put the 703 between the studs to keep the fabric frames I'm going to put in front as narrow as possible. I'm nailing a 2 foot wide by 1 foot high, 1 and 3/4 inch thick piece of plywood to the front of the framed wall on which to put the mount for my plasma. It's a low profile mount so I'm just trying to give the set as much room behind to breathe as possible.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

I you're not doing drywall then sure, put it in the stud cavities. Just understand that there will be a huge loss of isolation into and out of the room as they sound will flank right through and up/down.

Another option could be to drywall and just make a panel that's removable with thumbscrews when access to the window is required.

Bryan


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