# Power Conditioner Toss Up



## iSlinger

Hello gents.

I am currently looking at getting a power conditioner for my HT setup. I just had an electrician here to run me some 20A power lines, and now I need to filter the power coming from them to my AVR. After perusing the net and Amazon for about 2 days now, I narrowed it down to a few units. I'm kinda torn on which to get, so I figured I'd ask you guys.

They are as follows:
Monster HDP 1800 - Amazon Link
Belkin AP41300fc10 PF60 PureAV - Amazon Link
APC H15BLK - Amazon Link
APC G5Blk - Amazon Link

While I am most tempted by the Belkin unit, it is (I think) the oldest unit in terms of when it was made. I'm not sure if power filtration has really made huge breakthroughs in the past few years, so I'm not sure thats a valid argument against getting one. The other one that tickles my fancy is the APC H15BLK. I like the display, but I'm not sure that warrants an extra $50. There were a another few units that stood out in my head (one was Panamax made, but it was too expensive), but these are in the golden rage for price. Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

Thanks


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## lcaillo

What are your priorities? Why are you buying it? What are the critical specs you are considering?


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## iSlinger

It's kind of come down to an ease of mind thing for me. The equipment I'll have connected to it will be my denon 4310ci, 7.1 channels, an 1000w sub amp, ps3, and my gaming computer.


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## hjones4841

Be sure to check out consumer opinions on warranty/replacement service if you do have something damaged. From the little I have read, service varies from awful to good. Also, you may wish to add Panamax to your list. They have been making power protection devices for a long time.


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## iSlinger

When I first started looking for conditioners, I found this Panamax unit: http://www.amazon.com/Panamax-M4300...e=UTF8&qid=1341404273&sr=8-1&keywords=Panamax
It's a touch past the price range I'm looking in. It may be worth getting, but I'm new to power management.


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## wgmontgomery

My favorites are APC (love the battery back-up if you encounter frequent power outages), Panamax (great warranty and protection) and Monster (great warranty and filtering). I have two APCs pugged into either Monster or Panamax depending on location.

IF you are looking for protection from lightening (NC and Florida residents beware) make sure you get something that protects the cable; cable TV isn't always grounded properly and is a (somewhat) common culprit with surges from lightening. It doesn't happen often, but when it does it can destroy a HT/stereo system.


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## iSlinger

I have pretty decent luck with outages, though I have my Network Attached Storage unit on a backup just in case (which is made by APC). I don't have a coaxial cable hooked into any of my equipment, since I'm not a huge TV person.


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## wgmontgomery

The Panamax unit from Amazon is a good unit; Adcom made one years ago that worked well. You may be able to find a used one for <$100. I believe that the model was ACE-515; I had one in my system for years.


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## Tonto

Those prices seem too high, I bought an APC H15 about 2 years ago for $150. Then last year found a APC S15 with battery back up for $250 from Vanns (on of our sponser/vendors). So now I don't need the H15 (never taken out of box). Anyway the point being, these are old models that have been replaced & they seem a bit pricey for what I've seen. Just my 2 cents.


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## lcaillo

If you want peace of mind, make sure that all of the lines into your home are grounded properly, put protection on all signal lines, and use decent surge suppression. Whether you buy a power conditioner or not, if you want to protect your equipment, pay attention to these basics.


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## tonyvdb

This Triplite HT10DBS is the best deal going Monster is overpriced and Balkin is not as good. Battery backup is only necessary for a projector to give it time to cool down. For audio equipment it is not going to help prevent failure in most cases.


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## OZZIERP

I have been using APC and Panamax with great success for years.


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## iSlinger

That Tripplite model looks interesting, does it filter the power enough as compared to a full blown conditioning unit? Also I feel like I'm lost on the terminology a bit. A conditioner is supposed to remove the line noise from the AC from the wall, and make it "clean" before it hits the components. I'm assuming that the Tripplite unit ONLY does the EMI and RFI filtration. Would it also handle a voltage drop from say a brown out in my area of the grid? While I don't have this issue frequently, I would like to know that it would be handled if it DID happen.

I just found this guy: TrippLite LC2400.
How does this differ from the units I posted before?

I guess my end goal is a combo of peace of mind, as well as trying to filter the power to my components for maximum clarity. Some people tell me that it doesn't make much of a difference, but I'm willing to put that to the test and see for myself. It just boils down to getting the right unit, and making sure that unit does what I THINK its supposed to do.

Thanks for the input thus far.


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## doublejroc

Well said. Eagerly waiting for a response with an informative answer!


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## Anthony

We use APC and Tripp-Lite at work -- no problems and they handle outages and surges fine.

I have two Panamax units at home (the big guys that are shelf/rack mounted) and love them. Easy to configure, one has a current meter, both have voltage meters. Solidly built, too.


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## needspeed52

lcaillo said:


> If you want peace of mind, make sure that all of the lines into your home are grounded properly, put protection on all signal lines, and use decent surge suppression. Whether you buy a power conditioner or not, if you want to protect your equipment, pay attention to these basics.


Agree with Leonard, I have done what he has suggested and made sure all lines are grounded (properly), then I got an all house surge suppressor installed at mains entrance, then I use the Tripp Lite HT10DBS's for all signal cable, phone and data, I don't use any power conditioners, I won't say they don't make a difference I just don't use them. Tony has the link for the HT10DBS above, good unit and good price.
Jeff


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## iSlinger

The appeal of a conditioner unit is that it's not permanent, slash pseudo-mobile. I plan on moving my HT stuff to my apartment sometime this year, so having a unit is more flexible than guaranteeing the wire in my current location (which is grounded and whatnot). I also want the unit to stick with me until I decide to upgrade my setup, or even after I upgrade. As far as surge protection goes, EVERYTHING is on a nice surge protector. Not as nice as that tripplite one, but pretty decent.


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## needspeed52

iSlinger said:


> The appeal of a conditioner unit is that it's not permanent, slash pseudo-mobile. I plan on moving my HT stuff to my apartment sometime this year, so having a unit is more flexible than guaranteeing the wire in my current location (which is grounded and whatnot). I also want the unit to stick with me until I decide to upgrade my setup, or even after I upgrade. As far as surge protection goes, EVERYTHING is on a nice surge protector. Not as nice as that tripplite one, but pretty decent.


I would at least make sure the outlets you are using in your setup now are properly wired and grounded, it's just my opinion that conditioners are not miracle workers and also alter or get in the way of the original signal and the most effecient ones are way out of my price range, I hope I don't rustle any power conditioner's feathers here, no intention to do so.


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## iSlinger

I definitely agree with you, needspeed. My house is newer so all the wiring is up to spec, not something I am worried about. The quality of power is the concern here. The apartment I am moving to is also newer, so again it won't be a worry.


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## needspeed52

iSlinger said:


> I definitely agree with you, needspeed. My house is newer so all the wiring is up to spec, not something I am worried about. The quality of power is the concern here. The apartment I am moving to is also newer, so again it won't be a worry.


Sling, what is it that you makes you believe "The Quality of Power" is a compromise in your place now or the new location? Just curious.The Tripp Lite HT10DBS offers 3840 joules of SS and EMI/RFI filtering, I don't buy into the more vivid TV picture and cleaner, crisper audio presentation in the Tripp Lite ad, but it does for me what I expect it to, for the price you can get a couple of them, my main concern is my phone, cable and data lines and the HT10 is a good economical means of protection, I can't attest to the line filtering part and don't believe the quality of my power ultility company is lacking in that regard, although some locations and power utility companies will have that concern......thus my question.


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## iSlinger

To be honest, I don't know if my wall power is noisy or not, in either location. If I had a line sniffer, I would test the wall and see if it was actually worth getting something to correct it, but since I don't I was taking a "better safe than sorry" approach. I have heard that neighborhood noise (IE AC units turning on) can also add noise into a system. I'm not sure how much this affects my powerlines in general, but again, I'm just being cautious. I want to treat my equipment right, hence why I am looking into these kinds of units.


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## OZZIERP

I can honestly say there was no change in audio or video performance using one but as they say its insurance against damaged equipment and one APC did sacrifice itself instead of my Hi-Fi years ago.


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## lcaillo

As I have said many times, the noise on a.c. lines can be filtered by these devices. What has not been shown is that it has any effect that exceeds the internal filtering in the power supplies of modern equipment. In other words, is there any noise that these devices filter that would not already be filtered anyway. No one has produced evidence in my years of asking that this is the case. I have actually tried to find it many times and almost always the line noise is insignificant (even unfiltered in the primary) compared to the noise left over from switching power supplies themselves. 

There are cases that I have seen, rarely, that line conditioners have an audible effect on noise from other electrical devices. I have yet to find a case where there was not another solution in terms of proper grounding, isolation, shielding, or cleaning up the source of the noise. It certainly does not hurt to have cleaner power, but one should make sure that grounding is correct and that the "clean power" is actually a clean sine wave if the unit is regenerating or when UPS is operating. Some devices simply do not work with sloppy generated outputs from cheap UPS units.

IME, good installation, signal line protection, and modest surge suppression is all that most systems need. Spending more and not attending to the basics of installation and grounding, and not protecting the signal lines, can lead to a false sense of security. All of the vendors will agree that a well installed system is most important, even if the ads don't emphasize this.


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## needspeed52

iSlinger said:


> To be honest, I don't know if my wall power is noisy or not, in either location. If I had a line sniffer, I would test the wall and see if it was actually worth getting something to correct it, but since I don't I was taking a "better safe than sorry" approach. I have heard that neighborhood noise (IE AC units turning on) can also add noise into a system. I'm not sure how much this affects my powerlines in general, but again, I'm just being cautious. I want to treat my equipment right, hence why I am looking into these kinds of units.


My main concern is to prevent any power (utility) surges from entering my home, this happens quite frequently but at an almost undetectable amount, the culprits are utility company accidents, downed power lines, blown transformers and weather, these cause damage. If your place has been recently wired I would not concern myself with neighborhood noise, I would make note of which appliance or other devices in my home are on each breaker at the box, turn your system on with a source and turn the volume up on the receiver or preamp not the source and listen with your ear close to speaker, do this with each source, if all is quiet (no hum) your're good to go. Lightening strikes are a whole new ball game, that's something to be concerned about but that's for another topic and time. The noise you refer to probably does not exist if it does it's inaudible, just get the Tripp Lite HT10 and be done with it, as far as the 50-100-250 thousand dollar insurance claims from the manufacturers.....That's also inaudible and hogwash, try and get a claim, they will replace the Surge Suppressor, end of story. Enjoy the music and let your equipment treat you right...........
Cheers


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## needspeed52

lcaillo said:


> As I have said many times, the noise on a.c. lines can be filtered by these devices. What has not been shown is that it has any effect that exceeds the internal filtering in the power supplies of modern equipment. In other words, is there any noise that these devices filter that would not already be filtered anyway. No one has produced evidence in my years of asking that this is the case. I have actually tried to find it many times and almost always the line noise is insignificant (even unfiltered in the primary) compared to the noise left over from switching power supplies themselves.
> 
> There are cases that I have seen, rarely, that line conditioners have an audible effect on noise from other electrical devices. I have yet to find a case where there was not another solution in terms of proper grounding, isolation, shielding, or cleaning up the source of the noise. It certainly does not hurt to have cleaner power, but one should make sure that grounding is correct and that the "clean power" is actually a clean sine wave if the unit is regenerating or when UPS is operating. Some devices simply do not work with sloppy generated outputs from cheap UPS units.
> 
> IME, good installation, signal line protection, and modest surge suppression is all that most systems need. Spending more and not attending to the basics of installation and grounding, and not protecting the signal lines, can lead to a false sense of security. All of the vendors will agree that a well installed system is most important, even if the ads don't emphasize this.


Sound Advice Leonard, thanks....


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## iSlinger

Its surprising that the companies don't pay out to replace any equipment that failed on their unit.. Makes that part of the features almost... worthless. 

The amount of information from you guys is overwhelming, and sparked me to hunt a bit more online myself. I (at my current location) don't have any hum, as I oversaw the installation of my 20A lines. Both lines are in phase, and as far as I can tell I'm not hearing anything. So my audio quality probably won't see improvement. All my stuff is properly grounded (according to my small UPS), and I am pretty sure my surge protector is ok. So following that, I feel like I am ok in terms of audible noise and basic surge protection. I'm not sure how many joules my surge protector can take before it decides to fry.

From what I found, the main reason you get one of these is for older wiring situations, hums, RMI/EFI, etc. One thing I found was that the unfiltered power can degrade the Integrated Circuits in AV components, which is a huge concern of mine. I aim to have my system last out through college, as well as a good 5 years after that (so about 10 years). While modern AV equipment is extremely robust, not asimilar to older AV stuff (my parents have a 30+ year old stereo HiFi receiver, really n[eat), I never want to tempt my luck with thousand+ dollar piece of equipment.

I'd probably say I'm being a bit paranoid, but within a certain price range, I'm willing to give a bit to guarantee my stuff will last. I'm not looking for something past the $250 range. The units initially posted were just some I found. While the Tripplite HT10 is now on my radar, I would like to know why the other tripplite unit I posted (URL="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000514OG/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller="]this one[/URL]) costs more. In addition, why is this unit another $100 bucks?

From what I can tell, its outlets, isolated banks, and a difference in about 2000 or so joules. Lots of info on the product pages I don't really understand, what too look for in a unit, etc.

Thats my two cents on the situation now. As you guys keep giving me more info, I keep revising whether I need a special unit, or just one of those beefier Tripplite strips. I appreciate all the input thus far.


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## Anthony

Have to disagree about the warranty there:

I had an old Monster power strip with my whole rig run through it. One day the amp would not turn on. I sent it to the manufacturer for repair and it came back listed as Lightening Damage. They had a TSB/mini-recall on the unit, so they fixed the module at a discount and I was out shipping both ways (about $300 total). Monster covered the $300 + a new power strip. Granted, my claim was not $10k, and they did make me list all the connections and show pictures and a copy of the repair bill, but overall it was pretty hassle-free.


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## iSlinger

Anthony said:


> Have to disagree about the warranty there:
> 
> I had an old Monster power strip with my whole rig run through it. One day the amp would not turn on. I sent it to the manufacturer for repair and it came back listed as Lightening Damage. They had a TSB/mini-recall on the unit, so they fixed the module at a discount and I was out shipping both ways (about $300 total). Monster covered the $300 + a new power strip. Granted, my claim was not $10k, and they did make me list all the connections and show pictures and a copy of the repair bill, but overall it was pretty hassle-free.


Thats reassuring to hear that you had a positive experience with Monster. I hear a lot of stuff about them, usually not very good things.


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## Anthony

Oh, I despise them as a company now for other reasons (like suing a mini golf course and trying to scare competitors with frivolous lawsuits). But I have to give them credit on that one.


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## lcaillo

iSlinger said:


> From what I found, the main reason you get one of these is for older wiring situations, hums, RMI/EFI, etc. One thing I found was that the unfiltered power can degrade the Integrated Circuits in AV components, which is a huge concern of mine.


I don't know where you found that information, but I know of no credible source that would suggest that unfiltered power will degrade ICs. Power surges can do damage, but as I have said, the noise on a.c. lines simply does not survive the filtering and conversion in most modern power supplies. By far, the biggest reason that electronics get damaged is power surges due to lightning where there is not adequate surge suppression on the a.c. or on the signal lines OR where incoming signal lines like cable, sat, or antenna are not grounded.

A $50 surge protector that covers the signal lines and a.c. into your system is really all that you need to be protected. Grounding should be freely provided by your service providers. Whole house suppressors are great but with many it is not practical nor possible to protect signal lines at the entry point. Cheap local surge suppressors like those available from tripplite, panamax, or cyberpower that protect all lines are hard to argue against for protection.


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## needspeed52

lcaillo said:


> I don't know where you found that information, but I know of no credible source that would suggest that unfiltered power will degrade ICs. Power surges can do damage, but as I have said, the noise on a.c. lines simply does not survive the filtering and conversion in most modern power supplies. By far, the biggest reason that electronics get damaged is power surges due to lightning where there is not adequate surge suppression on the a.c. or on the signal lines OR where incoming signal lines like cable, sat, or antenna are not grounded.
> 
> A $50 surge protector that covers the signal lines and a.c. into your system is really all that you need to be protected. Grounding should be freely provided by your service providers. Whole house suppressors are great but with many it is not practical nor possible to protect signal lines at the entry point. Cheap local surge suppressors like those available from tripplite, panamax, or cyberpower that protect all lines are hard to argue against for protection.


Leonard, a great point made, I got whole house SS for the mains to protect my appliances and electronics, but never realized until you brought it to my attention that in house devices were necessary for other signals that could enter through phone, cable and data lines, for the price of the Tripp Lite HT10 I was able to get several and secure all signal lines, I thank you for that my friend. To sling I don't see any reason to spend more. I was confident that my service provider had the grounding covered, but feel even more so now with whole house SS which was both practical and possible.


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## RTS100x5

I have all my eq running on a PANAMAX 5100....very nice unit and I am a strong believer in AC filtration..


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## lcaillo

I believe in a.c. filtering as well. What most people do not realize is that most modern power supplies are quite good at filtering a.c. noise. 

All modern video products use switching power supplies that convert to d.c. in the primary then switch that d.c. on/off at rates of tens of kHz to hundreds of kHz. That conversion process generates orders of magnitude more noise than exists on a.c. lines that has to be rectified and filtered in the secondary. Line noise simply does not make it through to the resulting d.c. that is applied to the circuits in the component.

Many audio components use conventional power supplies that rectify to d.c. then filter. Low power circuits usually have additional regulation and filtering. Power amps usually do not. These supplies can pass some line noise but it is very difficult to measure after the power supply in even the worst cases. The vast majority of noise problems are common mode noise or ground loop noise. Common mode noise becomes an issue when connections to other devices and systems provide a different potential allowing current to flow between circuits at various points in the system. This type of problem is sometimes filtered with line conditioners, but not always. It is very hard to measure because it requires some external reference. It is typically filtered in the poser supply. Ground loops cause noise in systems due to inadequate or missing ground connections. This is sometimes masked by surge protectors or line conditioners that provide ground connections on signal lines, but this is not a safe solution.

The bottom line is that proper installation or properly designed and operating equipment nearly always solves noise issues. Additional filtering can be helpful in some systems, usually on the audio side, almost never for video. Protection is a completely different matter and all signal lines coming into a system should be protected with arc gap, diodes, or other types of protection, ideally at the entry point to the home AND properly grounded. Those ground connections should be checked regularly. A.c. lines should be protected by MOV devices or series (inductive) devices to prevent surges from getting to the power supplies.

My issue with the more expensive power conditioners and power centers is cost and service. More complex devices with extra switching and control circuits simply are not as reliable as passive devices. For instance, having worked for dealers who sold panamax and other units I am a big fan of their products. As service manager, however, I saw many times more service issues with the active control devices compared to the basic passive surge protectors. Over the years we also sold many times more of the passive devices. 

If your comfort level is greater spending more on active control power devices, backup units, and power conditioners, then there is value for you and that is fine. For me, a whole house surge suppressor and system local passive devices costing $30-50 on each system is very adequate protection. And I will likely never have a failure to have to deal with unless I get struck by lightning. With companies like Panamax, I have had them replace damaged devices due to lightning many times. I never saw a component connected damaged unless there was an unprotected line into the system such as when cable installers disconnect the surge suppressor.


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## iSlinger

Following that colossal amount of info, I'll probably get a few tripplite strips and call it a day. I won't know the wiring situation of my new location, but I can probably guess that it's up to wiring code since the complex I'll be in is relatively new.

Thanks everyone for your input.


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## GoNoles

A little late, but I use two different things. 


1) I use a Cyberpower 1500w LCD series UPS for my HDDVR and external Hard Drives on the battery side, and the sub on the surge side. I've always felt better with hard drive devices being powered off the UPS, and that 1500w will run all of them for a good 90 mins, so they rarely have to shutdown due to loss of power.

2) I use an APC H10 conditioner/surge protector for my display, blu-ray player, ATV, AVR and anything else that needs surge protection.


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## needspeed52

Here is a CNET take on SS and power outages
http://forums.cnet.com/7723-7591_10...ive-us-a-false-sense-of-security/?tag=nl.e497


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## wgmontgomery

Anthony said:


> Have to disagree about the warranty there:
> 
> I had an old Monster power strip with my whole rig run through it. One day the amp would not turn on. I sent it to the manufacturer for repair and it came back listed as Lightening Damage. They had a TSB/mini-recall on the unit, so they fixed the module at a discount and I was out shipping both ways (about $300 total). Monster covered the $300 + a new power strip. Granted, my claim was not $10k, and they did make me list all the connections and show pictures and a copy of the repair bill, but overall it was pretty hassle-free.


+1 I worked for a company that sold both Panamax and (later) Monster; BOTH companies offered _exemplary_ service and held-up their end when it came to warranty service/replacement. I personally handled many of the claims.


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## lcaillo

The CNET "take" on surge suppressors has many misunderstandings and faulty assumptions.

In the first post, for instance, the user assumes that his surge suppressor did not work, yet notes that the cable modem arced to ground. This is very common. The cable ground was likely faulty and the cable line was likely not connected through a device designed to protect it. I can't tell you how many times I saw this scenario on cable and sat systems over decades of servicing systems. If the cable line had been properly grounded, the cable modem supply protected by an MOV (read that cheap) based surge protector, and the cable signal run through a properly designed surge suppressor, there would have likely been no way for the "arc to ground" to happen.

The common mistake that many make is to protect the a.c. and forget the signal lines. This is the problem with whole house surge suppression. It usually only protects a.c. This leave the primary access to the system by lightning, the signal lines, unprotected. Often the assumption that they are grounded properly is simply a mistake. I still see many installations of sat systems that are not grounded at all. All ground connections corrode or get loose over time and should be checked periodically. Many cable installers actually remove surge protectors because years ago many would not pass the return signals on digital cable systems. Modern units rarely have this problem. 

The truth is that you can get relatively inexpensive protection for all of your systems that covers all of the signal lines. The more MOVs you have in the system and the more paths to ground the better. It is best to have this protection at the entry point to the home but signals often enter the home elsewhere. Regardless, all incoming lines MUST be grounded to the electrical system ground electrode.

iSlinger, I think you have the right idea, just don't assume that grounding is correct. Check it. It is your most important protection.


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## wgmontgomery

lcaillo said:


> The CNET "take" on surge suppressors has many misunderstandings and faulty assumptions.
> 
> In the first post, for instance, the user assumes that his surge suppressor did not work, yet notes that the cable modem arced to ground. This is very common. The cable ground was likely faulty and the cable line was likely not connected through a device designed to protect it. I can't tell you how many times I saw this scenario on cable and sat systems over decades of servicing systems. If the cable line had been properly grounded, the cable modem supply protected by an MOV (read that cheap) based surge protector, and the cable signal run through a properly designed surge suppressor, there would have likely been no way for the "arc to ground" to happen.


+1; I just came-back from that link. I'll also state that it wasn't really CNET's take; it was many CNET _subscribers'_ take.


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## lcaillo

Exactly. And most consumers are very much confused about this issue. There has been so much hype and misinformation for decades that it is hard to parse it all. Another point that is important is that the area one lives is affects how much any of this matters. Some areas see relatively little lightning and have rather stable power. Having started my career in repairs in Louisiana and spend over a decade in the business in Gainesville Fl, both having high instances of lightning, I found it important to research the matter and do some experimenting. I got interested in the noise issues trying to keep my bench power clean. I found with repeated testing that no matter what garbage was on the line, the power supplies always filtered it. And with tons of equipment in the shop and a grocery store next door, we always had noisy a.c.


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## wgmontgomery

lcaillo said:


> Exactly. And most consumers are very much confused about this issue. There has been so much hype and misinformation for decades that it is hard to parse it all. Another point that is important is that the area one lives is affects how much any of this matters. Some areas see relatively little lightning and have rather stable power. Having started my career in repairs in Louisiana and spend over a decade in the business in Gainesville Fl, both having high instances of lightning, I found it important to research the matter and do some experimenting. I got interested in the noise issues trying to keep my bench power clean. I found with repeated testing that no matter what garbage was on the line, the power supplies always filtered it. And with tons of equipment in the shop and a grocery store next door, we always had noisy a.c.


Fl, SC and NC are high on the list equipment damage due to lightening strikes; I've found that my current (obvious pun) combo of a Monster filter with an APC UPS works great. Before having them, the AC and were some-what audible through the system. Now it's dead quiet.


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## needspeed52

wgmontgomery said:


> +1; I just came-back from that link. I'll also state that it wasn't really CNET's take; it was many CNET _subscribers'_ take.


Sorry for the the misrepresentation, CNET's suscribers TAKE, CNET takes weekly subscribers questions and lets the members offer answers, thanks mont for the heads up. I believe I got the AC covered with WH SS, and all other signal path with in house devices. I am always checking my grounds especially with Comcast cable, phone and data lines, some of the tecnicians that have been here had no business to be here, Comcast has so many sub contractors that don't have a clue, nothing against qualified techs intended.


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## lcaillo

Normally, we frown on general statements about a group but in the case of cable sub-contractors...or sat installers...:dontknow:

Seriously, there are some very responsible cable companies, and very good contract installers for cable and sat work. The biggest problem is that many times they are in the minority because of the rates that the companies pay and the time and materials allocated to installation. Most major cable companies get grounding right using their own people. Contractors vary a great deal. Sst installs vary greatly but my experience with them is that they almost never get it right in our area. Maybe they have improved in the year or so I have been out of the business, but I would always check.


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## needspeed52

lcaillo said:


> Normally, we frown on general statements about a group but in the case of cable sub-contractors...or sat installers...:dontknow:
> 
> Seriously, there are some very responsible cable companies, and very good contract installers for cable and sat work. The biggest problem is that many times they are in the minority because of the rates that the companies pay and the time and materials allocated to installation. Most major cable companies get grounding right using their own people. Contractors vary a great deal. Sst installs vary greatly but my experience with them is that they almost never get it right in our area. Maybe they have improved in the year or so I have been out of the business, but I would always check.


I could not agree with you more, Comcast's own people have been very good with my installs but prior sub installers have been less than stellar and had to have Comcast personnel finish. My sister's sat install took three different contractors to get it right, each installer was a different sub contractor. With Comcast I have all my services bundled, phone, cable TV and internet, I found out that Comcast was doubling my internet speed and was excited as I have a decent network setup, but had I not called today to inquire about this I would not have been able to take advantage of this upgrade because of a Modem that could not pass the increased bandwidth, my point is why offer these extra benefits to entice people to cross over to the Xfinity band wagon and not inform existing customers the steps and equipment needed to accomplish this? The cost is $25 to swap out the modem which I of course got waived, I have been with Comcast for 27 years and considered to be a member of their "Loyalty Customer Group" which entitles me to certain perks which to date has been increased annual rates. To switch to another provider I would have to have three different companies for phone, cable and internet. Thanks Leonard....


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## iSlinger

lcaillo said:


> Exactly. And most consumers are very much confused about this issue. There has been so much hype and misinformation for decades that it is hard to parse it all. Another point that is important is that the area one lives is affects how much any of this matters. Some areas see relatively little lightning and have rather stable power. Having started my career in repairs in Louisiana and spend over a decade in the business in Gainesville Fl, both having high instances of lightning, I found it important to research the matter and do some experimenting. I got interested in the noise issues trying to keep my bench power clean. I found with repeated testing that no matter what garbage was on the line, the power supplies always filtered it. And with tons of equipment in the shop and a grocery store next door, we always had noisy a.c.


When you say bench, you mean like a workbench for power tools etc? Or like a store bench with a ton of miscellaneous equipment connect to the same power line?

Either way, all of this discussion is interesting. Lots of info I have never heard.


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## OZZIERP

One thing about it a direct lightning strike will take out most anything but preventative measures will help with static discharges and whole house protection helps but remember all grounds and neutrals share a common bar that is connected together in your service box so I like to use surge protection on my computers and Hi-Fi independent from the rest of the system.


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## lcaillo

I have seen several homes with direct hits that blew irrigation systems out of the ground, blew holes in the side of the house and toasted numerous unprotected devices and no damage on properly grounded and protected systems. We mostly sold Panamax units, under $100 each and had a few sacrifice themselves with no damage to the equipment. Panamax always replaced the units at no charge. The devices that took damage were always the ones that were not properly protected. Ironically those cable boxes that the installers took off the surge suppressors were often the first to go.


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## needspeed52

lcaillo said:


> I have seen several homes with direct hits that blew irrigation systems out of the ground, blew holes in the side of the house and toasted numerous unprotected devices and no damage on properly grounded and protected systems. We mostly sold Panamax units, under $100 each and had a few sacrifice themselves with no damage to the equipment. Panamax always replaced the units at no charge. The devices that took damage were always the ones that were not properly protected. Ironically those cable boxes that the installers took off the surge suppressors were often the first to go.


I don't understand why installers would take cable boxes off SS's, convenience or neglect or ignorance?


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## mandtra

needspeed52 said:


> I don't understand why installers would take cable boxes off SS's, convenience or neglect or ignorance?


A service guy showed up at my house one day last year and said if i didn't remove the surge protector , he was going to unhook me at the pole. Said it was causing noise on the line , it was a $100 monster unit


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## needspeed52

mandtra said:


> A service guy showed up at my house one day last year and said if i didn't remove the surge protector , he was going to unhook me at the pole. Said it was causing noise on the line , it was a $100 monster unit


You have to be kidding, how did he know it was causing noise on the line, you did hook it back up?


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## mandtra

He claimed there were several complaints in the area , and said he had a digital tool that could help pinpoint where the interference was coming from , said went from house to house doing a noise reading. i left it off.

but now i have Direct tv , and tried a protector on it , and when i do it blocks certain channels. i tried the forums and still no luck , the comments say that the higher band channels cannot pass through the filters


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## lcaillo

What model device, how old is it, and what channels?

It is unlikely that the cable installer was correct, but if true the unit is defective. It should not generate noise. A one half to one dB drop in signal due to the connections in its pass band is normal. Some older models had trouble passing return signals. None of the current monster units should. Not sure about the high freqs on sat these days but I would contact the mftr about that.


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## Anthony

I had a Monster strip block some of my cable company hi-def channels. It was only rated to 1GHz and all my new ones are 2GHz+.

It was weird too, only a few channels would drop but not adjacent ones. I have Fios now and don't worry about it, but I have seen that filtering effect.

It's also something to worry about if you need to split a cable line -- make sure the splitter is rated for the higher bandwidth signals.


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## mandtra

Anthony said:


> I had a Monster strip block some of my cable company hi-def channels. It was only rated to 1GHz and all my new ones are 2GHz+.
> 
> It was weird too, only a few channels would drop but not adjacent ones. I have Fios now and don't worry about it, but I have seen that filtering effect.
> 
> It's also something to worry about if you need to split a cable line -- make sure the splitter is rated for the higher bandwidth signals.[/QUO
> 
> Can anyone suggest a surge protector that will not block any channels on Direct tv?


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## lcaillo

I don't know about the Monster units but the newer Panamax devices go to over 2gHz on the cable protection. I think most recent units do, though finding specs is usually next to impossible other than Tripplite and Panamax.


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## OZZIERP

The 5400 Panamax works with Dish,Comcast and Uverse these are all that I have used.


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## needspeed52

lcaillo said:


> I don't know about the Monster units but the newer Panamax devices go to over 2gHz on the cable protection. I think most recent units do, though finding specs is usually next to impossible other than Tripplite and Panamax.


Len, got my new modem today to handle the higher bandwidth for internet, Comcast guy told me a lot of cable channels were experiencing drop outs with certain HD channels of customers who had less than 2gHz pass through SS's connected. My Tripp Lite HT10's have 2.2gHz pass through and no problems yet with channel drop outs. Cable guy told me my install coming in was well grounded........


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## wgmontgomery

lcaillo said:


> I don't know about the Monster units but the newer Panamax devices go to over 2gHz on the cable protection. I think most recent units do, though finding specs is usually next to impossible other than Tripplite and Panamax.


+1

FWIW-my Monster HTFS-450 unit does fine with HD cable. The manual does not list bandwidth, but it does state that the coaxial connection is suitable for cable, satellite and antenna. I owned a nicer Monster unit "way-back-when" and used it with Direct TV; I never had a problem with it, either. I am a big fan of both the Monster and Panamax units; both companies make products that work as advertised, AND they stand behind them.


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## Rigged

lcaillo said:


> What model device, how old is it, and what channels?
> 
> It is unlikely that the cable installer was correct, but if true the unit is defective. It should not generate noise. A one half to one dB drop in signal due to the connections in its pass band is normal. Some older models had trouble passing return signals. None of the current monster units should. Not sure about the high freqs on sat these days but I would contact the mftr about that.


As a technician for a cable company I can attest that it is very possible for the units to cause noise in the return spectrum. Having tracked down multiple problems to conditioners along with many other things. Both old and brand new have caused issues, but any active device that you connect to your RF cable line can cause noise. As far as the newer higher end units go; they should not cause a problem as long as they are rated for the correct spectrum.


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## lcaillo

Rigged said:


> As a technician for a cable company I can attest that it is very possible for the units to cause noise in the return spectrum. Having tracked down multiple problems to conditioners along with many other things. Both old and brand new have caused issues, but any active device that you connect to your RF cable line can cause noise. As far as the newer higher end units go; they should not cause a problem as long as they are rated for the correct spectrum.


Similar to my question previously regarding the device, what do you mean by "they." If a power conditioner or surge protector is causing noise it is defective and should be returned to the manufacturer and/or replaced. If you have some details I would be very interested. In roughly three decades I cannot recall ever having a surge protector or power conditioner actually generate noise back up a cable line. Every time we had a unit that the cable company claimed to be doing so, it turned out to be another device that happened to be connected and usually related to a grounding or installation problem. Just because you remove the surge protector making the connection back to the cable system does not mean that it is necessarily the problem. I have seen this faulty assumption made many times.

The unit in question here was not IIRC, an active device at all. Even active power conditioners (regardless of my view that they are not needed) rarely generate noise that would create a problem.


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## Rigged

I completely agree that if any device is causing noise it is defective, not just power conditioners or surge protectors. I too was very suspicious of these devices actually creating noise themselves when I first started. On a recent call I went to I just bypassed the device with a f-type barrel and the impairment went away. I reconnected the device (I don't remember the brand) and the noise was elevated. After unplugging everything connected to the surge protector the noise was still there. 

Granted this doesn't happen very often but it indeed can happen. I just didn't want anyone to be under the impression that it was impossible.

When I said active device I meant TVs, Cable Boxes, amplifiers, line conditioners etc. Honestly anything can cause noise. A fitting that is barely on a TV can elevate the return spectrum by 30+db. Most of the time it is something silly like a modem or inadequate cable line the customer installed.


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## lcaillo

Please define exactly which models and system conditions, along with the type of noise and measuring techniques you used when describing problems. Generally stating that protection devices create noise does not tell us very much about what is really going on in the system. If there are brands, models, or designs that actually do have these kinds of issues, we would love to know so that we can recommend not using them. The experience of most highly skilled system designers and techs, however, is that these devices do not create noise in a system. They may provide an additional circuit that reveals other problems.

Most power strips and surge suppressors are not active devices. Assuming that because you replace the device with a barrel connector and the symptom changes indicates that the device is the source of the problem is simply faulty troubleshooting in most cases. I understand that most cable companies do not feel that it is their responsibility to troubleshoot the entire system to solve such problems, and simplifying the system by removing a surge suppressor might seem to solve the problem. This is, in fact, nearly always just a patch on the problem, and often covering up issues in the cable system itself. 

As you said, a bad connector can increase noise in the system considerably. What usually happens that makes it appear that the surge suppressor is the problem is that it provides a common connection for a.c. and other system grounds. If there are other points in the system with grounds that are not at the same potential as others, a new path for noise gets introduced with the surge suppressor. The proper course of action is to determine where the inadequate ground might be. In my years of experience troubleshooting these kinds of problems, it is almost never the surge suppressor. By far the most common problems are bad or poorly installed connections at ground points at the entry to the home or bad connections in the cable system itself.

The surge suppression on cable lines is generally not going to create noise. The connections at the coax should not create more than about 1dB of insertion loss, which in a properly designed system should be insignificant. Treating the surge suppressor like the problem to avoid further troubleshooting is a common practice, but is more a symptom of naivete in system understanding than a solution.


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## Rigged

lcaillo, I did not intend to cause any problems here. I was just trying to help with overall understanding of noise in a system


lcaillo said:


> Please define exactly which models and system conditions, along with the type of noise and measuring techniques you used when describing problems. Generally stating that protection devices create noise does not tell us very much about what is really going on in the system. If there are brands, models, or designs that actually do have these kinds of issues, we would love to know so that we can recommend not using them. The experience of most highly skilled system designers and techs, however, is that these devices do not create noise in a system. They may provide an additional circuit that reveals other problems.





Rigged said:


> ]Granted this doesn't happen very often but it indeed can happen. I just didn't want anyone to be under the impression that it was impossible.


This is all that I was saying. I was not saying that overall protection devices always create noise, I was merely saying that it is possible for them to create noise if defective.

As far as my measuring techniques. I use a spectrum analyzer with the start and stop frequencies at the beginning and end of the return spectrum. Most times what I have found was that it's just a general elevation across the spectrum or a large hump in the noise floor. CPD or broadband noise isn't what I've found with this kind of device.



lcaillo said:


> Most power strips and surge suppressors are not active devices. Assuming that because you replace the device with a barrel connector and the symptom changes indicates that the device is the source of the problem is simply faulty troubleshooting in most cases. I understand that most cable companies do not feel that it is their responsibility to troubleshoot the entire system to solve such problems, and simplifying the system by removing a surge suppressor might seem to solve the problem. This is, in fact, nearly always just a patch on the problem, and often covering up issues in the cable system itself.


I understand that most are not active devices. Can you explain this a little more? I not being sarcastic, I am being completely honest when I say that. How would I further troubleshoot to determine it's not the surge suppressor? Being able to fix a problem someplace else and not tell a customer it's their equipment is by far the better choice in my opinion. I have just never seen such a thing happen. 

I've been racking my brain all night thinking about this when I remembered that I tracked a problem to a surge protector. I removed the input and output RF cables while also terminating the output with a 75Ohm terminator (as to not pickup any noise from an un-terminated port) and disconnected all the power cables into the unit. I then put my spectrum analyzer on the input port and the noise was elevated. What else could it have been if the only thing that was connected was the power to the unit and my meter? 



lcaillo said:


> As you said, a bad connector can increase noise in the system considerably. What usually happens that makes it appear that the surge suppressor is the problem is that it provides a common connection for a.c. and other system grounds. If there are other points in the system with grounds that are not at the same potential as others, a new path for noise gets introduced with the surge suppressor. The proper course of action is to determine where the inadequate ground might be. In my years of experience troubleshooting these kinds of problems, it is almost never the surge suppressor. By far the most common problems are bad or poorly installed connections at ground points at the entry to the home or bad connections in the cable system itself.


Again I agree, I just didn't want people to think that surge suppressors never create noise.



lcaillo said:


> The surge suppression on cable lines is generally not going to create noise. The connections at the coax should not create more than about 1dB of insertion loss, which in a properly designed system should be insignificant. Treating the surge suppressor like the problem to avoid further troubleshooting is a common practice, but is more a symptom of naivete in system understanding than a solution.


Just to make sure when I say noise it's not in the forward spectrum, but the return spectrum. Insertion loss at that low of a frequency shouldn't be a problem like you said; I just wanted to clarify.


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## lcaillo

Rigged said:


> I've been racking my brain all night thinking about this when I remembered that I tracked a problem to a surge protector. I removed the input and output RF cables while also terminating the output with a 75Ohm terminator (as to not pickup any noise from an un-terminated port) and disconnected all the power cables into the unit. I then put my spectrum analyzer on the input port and the noise was elevated. What else could it have been if the only thing that was connected was the power to the unit and my meter?


So in the above example, what was the circuit? Presumably, you had only the spectrum analyzer connected to the input and the surge protector plugged into the wall. The surge suppressor is only connecting the signal line ground to the a.c. ground, with no connections to the hot side of the a.c. line. The circuit also contains some device, either a diode or MOV, or perhaps a spark gap between the signal conductor and ground. The most likely scenario is that the ground on the a.c. service and the neutral line are at some different potential. It is conceivable, but not likely that some fault or leakage in the suppression devices connected to the signal conductor is contributing, but this is rather unlikely since failures of these devices are usually in the form of a short circuit. More likely there is current flowing in the ground paths. Add a power supply to such a circuit that might be leaking some noise and you have quite a large potential noise problem backing up in the system. The surge suppressor is providing a path, not generating the noise. When you disconnect the cable line you are breaking the ground loop forming the circuit where current is flowing. It is understandable that a cable tech with relatively little circuit training and little experience with complex systems and ground loop interactions assumes a problem with the surge suppressor. 

You are not creating a problem here, but hopefully, discussing the specifics of some of these problems will prove informative to you and to others. The simple fact is that most cable techs simply do what they are told to quickly work to a solution that eliminates the immediate issue. Many do not have the skills or interest to do more. They do not typically troubleshoot the system beyond removing the "problem" surge protector. It simply is not practical considering what cable techs and contractors are paid and the time they are given to solve problems. The design of the related system and the quality of installation of the A/V, communications, and electrical power systems really are not what you are being paid to do. You are, essentially, being paid to keep it simple, not to solve a problem that might be a complex system interaction.


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## Rigged

How would you continue to troubleshoot a situation like I stated above? I have dealt with floating neutrals in homes before, is it similar to that? One example was where our ground was hot and had quite a bit of voltage on it. Measuring from the ground to the physical earth ground. When the power company removed the meter at the side of the house there was nothing left of the ground bar, it was completely rusted out. 

I was trying to figure out how to take this offline as to not clog up this thread, but I couldn't figure it out.


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## lcaillo

We probably could have spun this off into a different thread, but since we are here...

To troubleshoot further, one would measure the resistance in the ground paths and measure the voltages between the a.c. conductors and relative to other paths such as the cable ground, grounds on network lines, phone lines, satellite, and antenna lines. Leakage current tests on the various devices in the system can be useful. I have often found excessive leakage currents on cable and sat STBs, for instance.


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## Rigged

I know that in my area all the telcom companies ground to electric at the electrical entrance to the home. Measuring between the different grounds wouldn't give you the exact same result because of the common bond? 

Would you measure leakage current on other equipment by measuring off the end of the power plug, that's what I would assume.


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## westom

lcaillo said:


> It is conceivable, but not likely that some fault or leakage in the suppression devices connected to the signal conductor is contributing, but this is rather unlikely since failures of these devices are usually in the form of a short circuit. More likely there is current flowing in the ground paths.


 Three failure modes exist. First a device may become partially damaged due to a current just above its maximum limit. This failure can create a non-linear device. That is a noise generator.

Second, a device may become a short circuit if the transient current is larger. This type failure usually has no visual indication. And third, a device may become an open circuit (no visual indication) or vaporize (visually obvious) if that transient current is even greater.

A protector acting in a non-linear fashion is rare. But it does happen. And has been observed to create noise. I never saw it with GDT type protectors. But have seen that type failure on most every other type.

How likely will a protector become non-linear (and therefore a noise generator)? Rare.


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## SI.Theater

I own 2 Monster Power units and a Panamax. Our house has been struck by lightning several times over the past few years. One of which literally blew off a section of the roof. Both Monster Power units caught on fire while the Panamax was unscathed. The most damage has been done over Cat5, phone and cable lines, so be sure those are protected as well.

For protection, a whole house unit it probably your best bet. I had one installed for $300.


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## needspeed52

Hey Leonard, I just wanted to thank you for providing all the info you do. I know this is not the place to do this but had to let you know how you saved me a ton. I needed a PS for a four year old Panny plasma PZ77, the cheapest online was from Panasonic $265, elsewhere $3-400. I contacted a NESDA repair shop in my area and got the PS board and mounting hardware for $90 from this guy. If it wasn't for you listing the NESDA qualified repair shops, I would have never known to do this, again, thank you my friend :sn:
Best Regards Jeff


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## lcaillo

Yes, it is off topic, but appreciated. Thank you. Glad you found value in the info.


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## Wardsweb

I run a Panamax M5400-PM in my home theater. I got it as a free replacement when my Panamax MAX1000+ gave it's life to saved my gear. Panamax's lifetime warranty is awesome.

I run a PS Audio Quintessence in my main 2-channel system.


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## ManCave

I'm a Furman fan. Does everything I need it to do. Had an APC unit before and like it but was time to step up.


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## SI.Theater

ManCave said:


> I'm a Furman fan. Does everything I need it to do. Had an APC unit before and like it but was time to step up.


I think Furman and Panamax are the same company, with one made for the pro market and the other for the home market.


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## Sevenfeet

I have a Panamax that protects all of the devices in my home theater that don't have hard drives. That leaves my Tivo S3 and PS3 which are protected by an APC Back-UPS 1000. I also hook my Slingbox and a small Ethernet switch into that UPS. Why bother? Well we get a fair amount of tornadoes and severe storms in Tennessee and usually at least once a year the family has to bug out to our "safe room" (an interior bathroom). If we don't have power, the Tivo, Slingbox and the network can keep me informed with whatever the local TV networks are trying to warn us about via iPhone or iPad. All of the other critical house systems (main Ethernet switch, cable modem+phone, and wireless router all have their own UPSes.

One thing I should do is investigate putting some surge suppression between the cable modem and the coax coming in from the street. It's not as critical a need since all of the utility wires in my neighborhood are buried but electricity is a funny thing sometimes. Back in '97 during one of Nashville's more memorable tornadoes, a large lightening strike hit near my then-townhome. (Wires were buried there too) It roasted an APC UPS I owned at the time and killed a neighbor's computer. My only concern is whether the surge suppressor would have a detrimental impact on signal strength. It shouldn't but you never know. Upstream the Panamax already protects the Tivo from coax surges.


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## westom

Makes no difference whether wires are overhead or underground. Obvious if the electrical nature of a destructive surge is understood.


Sevenfeet said:


> One thing I should do is investigate putting some surge suppression between the cable modem and the coax coming in from the street.


 So a 2 cm part inside a protector will stop what three miles of sky could not? Nothing in your post defined protection. A 2 cm part will stop a surge? Or does that protector absorb a surge's energy? Again, numbers. A destructive surge is typically hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules will that protector absorb? Nothing stops or blocks a surge. But the myth is widely touted.

If a destructive current was incoming to a UPS, then the same surge current was also outgoing into an attached appliance. Why was a UPS damaged? Because it did no protection. Was the attached appliance OK? Then superior protection inside that appliance protected it from a same current that also destroyed a less robust UPS. You have no reason, no manufacturer specification numbers, and plenty of experience that says a UPS does not do that protection.

If cable was properly installed, then it already has the best protection possible. It has a wire that connects the cable, low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet'), to single point earth ground. Best protection means no protector. Any wire that cannot connect directly to earth (ie telephone, AC electric) then get the next best protection. A protector makes that same low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot', no sharp wire bends, etc) connection. A protector is not protection. A protector only makes a connection TO protection. Protection is earth ground. And not just any earth ground. A single point earth ground (all four words have electrical significance).

Did you know all telephone lines already have the best protector, installed for free, by every telco? Installed on every subscriber interface with wires overhead or underground.


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## SI.Theater

While there may be no protection against lightning, what about minor surges, brownouts and blackouts? I've had surge protectors stop small surges on several occasions that would have otherwise killed equipment with particularly sensitive power supplies. Where I live, trees have grown into the power lines which constantly causes interruptions and surges.

I also own several UPS systems for the protection of my projector lamps (they cost me around $2,000 each) and the projectors themselves, which could be damaged if they don't cool down completely. I also use them for my servers and computers to prevent data corruption or damaged hard drives.

Surge protectors won't stop a lightning bolt, nothing will. But they do have their uses, especially those with battery backup.


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## Sevenfeet

westom said:


> Makes no difference whether wires are overhead or underground. Obvious if the electrical nature of a destructive surge is understood.
> So a 2 cm part inside a protector will stop what three miles of sky could not? Nothing in your post defined protection. A 2 cm part will stop a surge? Or does that protector absorb a surge's energy? Again, numbers. A destructive surge is typically hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules will that protector absorb? Nothing stops or blocks a surge. But the myth is widely touted.
> 
> If a destructive current was incoming to a UPS, then the same surge current was also outgoing into an attached appliance. Why was a UPS damaged? Because it did no protection. Was the attached appliance OK? Then superior protection inside that appliance protected it from a same current that also destroyed a less robust UPS. You have no reason, no manufacturer specification numbers, and plenty of experience that says a UPS does not do that protection.
> 
> If cable was properly installed, then it already has the best protection possible. It has a wire that connects the cable, low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet'), to single point earth ground. Best protection means no protector. Any wire that cannot connect directly to earth (ie telephone, AC electric) then get the next best protection. A protector makes that same low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot', no sharp wire bends, etc) connection. A protector is not protection. A protector only makes a connection TO protection. Protection is earth ground. And not just any earth ground. A single point earth ground (all four words have electrical significance).
> 
> Did you know all telephone lines already have the best protector, installed for free, by every telco? Installed on every subscriber interface with wires overhead or underground.


So you're saying the entire UPS industry is a sham, which also includes some pretty substancial enterprise level/data center equipment? Really? Somehow I cannot imagine that this "scam" has gone on for so long without nobody noticing. </sarcasm>

Look, I'm not an electrical engineer so this is not by specialty. But I cannot imagine an entire industry like this completely built on fraud.


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## lcaillo

Sarcasm and condescending comments are not a direction that this forum will allow.

There are entire industries that rely on poor understanding of science and technology to promote their products. To some degree, this is true with respect to electrical protection, but to say the entire industry is a fraud is not appropriate nor correct in my opinion.

UPS and surge protection are two different things. They get combined in many cases but we need to keep the terminology clear. UPS is for power backup. Tom's rants are typically about surge protection. 

A 2cm device is not asked to stop large surges in a surge suppressor. MOVs of that size are used to divert current when voltages across them reach the clamping level. 

Tom is correct in emphasizing the importance of low impedance grounds. He is incorrect in asserting that there is no value in surge protection devices. I have seen too many systems undamaged, even in direct lightning strikes to a home, while the connected protectors took the damage. While sellers overstate the ability of protectors, Tom's crusade against such devices, which I have observed for many years on numerous forums and groups, is unfair and his language less than helpful in conveying knowledge about the science that he calls upon.

There are aspects of this industry that sell products upon claims that have not been justified with objective analysis and testing. Examples are power conditioners making images clearer and sound better. In most cases, this simply is not going to happen. In extreme cases of system noise there can be some benefit. Like surges, however, the first line of defense is good installation and grounding. About that Tom is absolutely correct.

Saying there is no value in UPS, power conditioning, or surge suppression is simply not the whole story. Personally, I use relatively inexpensive surge suppressors that include coverage for all signal lines, and I have my system well grounded according to code and check that annually. I do not use any expensive power conditioners. If I find noise I attack it at the source, but proper installation usually prevents problems from the start. The small amount of filtering in many surge suppressors, combined with the use of switching power supplies with multiple levels of filtering in most components just does not leave much possibility of external noise affecting the performance of most video equipment. Audio with conventional power supplies is somewhat more affected by line noise, but not to the degree that purveyors of expensive line conditioners and pricey power cords would suggest.


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## AudiocRaver

Excellent clarifications, and my own knowledge & experience, where they apply, echo them.

Thanks for keeping us on track.


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## westom

Sevenfeet said:


> So you're saying the entire UPS industry is a sham, which also includes some pretty substantial enterprise level/data center equipment? Really?


 Nobody said the entire UPS industry is a shame. Context is not enterprise level equipment.

Another completely different device, also called a UPS, that is a building wide (enterprise) unit located at the service entrance is irrelevant here. A UPS here (ie APC) provides temporary power. Often nothing more. Only does what its spec numbers say. Advertising can lie. That misrepresentation is legal. Informed consumers view or quote specifications. And learn basic concepts.

A typical consumer UPS connects a surge directly into appliances when not in battery backup mode. Does it do surge protection? Yes. Protection from surges so tiny as to not cause damage. That UPS does not claim protection from destructive surges. Otherwise, someone posted manufacturer specifications that claim protection. No such specs exist.

Same applies to a cable modem protector. Even cable companies recommend not installing it. That protector (something in series) protects from transients typically not destructive. Another completely different solution actually does perform protection. So yes, some protectors are only profit centers. And other devices do protection. A well proven concept that even describes why a lightning rod works.

Why does that enterprise level UPS do protection? Simple. It has a low impedance (short) connection to a building's earth ground. What makes a 'whole house' protector so effective? It has a low impedance (short) connection to a building's earth ground. What makes existing protection on cable (as also required by code) so effective? It has a low impedance (short, no sharp wire bends, etc) connection to a building's single point earth ground. Where is the low impedance connection from a UPS to earth? Does not exist. Is not discussed.

An earth ground that must both meet and exceed code requirements.

Effective protection means nobody even knew a surge existed. Means a protector does not fail. Often costs tens or 100 times less money. The problem: nobody knows from observation that a protector does protection. Because effective protection means nobody even knew a surge existed.

Every wire in every incoming cable (overhead or underground) must connect low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground before entering a building. A ground that must both meet and 'exceed' code requirements. Best protection for cable is short connection from the cable's ground block to earth. Even if a utility wire is underground. A professional's application note demonstrates these well understood concepts:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf

More useful than power conditioners, et al is something that actually does protect appliances for tens or 100 times less money. Either a destructive transient remains harmlessly outside the building. Or it will go hunting (even blow through power conditioners) to obtain earth destructively via appliances. It is always about the path to earth. A harmless one or a destructive one.


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## rab-byte

I've skimmed this thread and I'll add my $0.02

Whole home is very important and should be used. Local power centers will provide an additional level of protection that should not be over looked. They can prevent cross-grounding hum in a system and those that offer voltage regulation can also extend life of a system by reducing wear to your connected equipment. Lastly if installed properly they should warranty any equipment damaged in a strike. I'm not one who buys into them improving your performance (pic/sound quality) but do feel they provide important benefits. I own Panamax and my equipment has serviced surges and storms quite well.


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