# What to do.



## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

I am currently using monitor audio rs6 for fronts, rs centre and rs5's for rears gouling through an onkyo 876. To get a smooth crossover response between my subs and speakers I cross them at 100hz. Thats for speakers and sub. I am looking for more mid bass punch. I have looked at ED's cinema 12's they look pretty impressive for the money. Budget is limited but would like to hear your thoughts on ways to improve it.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

gperkins_1973 said:


> I am currently using monitor audio rs6 for fronts, rs centre and rs5's for rears gouling through an onkyo 876. To get a smooth crossover response between my subs and speakers I cross them at 100hz. Thats for speakers and sub. I am looking for more mid bass punch. I have looked at ED's cinema 12's they look pretty impressive for the money. Budget is limited but would like to hear your thoughts on ways to improve it.


Hello.
With RS6's, you should really try lowering the Crossover to 80hz. Having it at 100hz both leads to localization of the Subwoofer by having the Speakers playing 20hz lower should get more Midbass from them. The 876 is a powerhouse so I do not think you need more power. Do you have an SPL Meter? Sometimes Audyssey sets the levels low and especially the Subwoofer. If you do, make sure all channels hit 75db's and you might prefer the Subwoofer set to 80db's.
Cheers,
JJ


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

I am calibrated to 75db for the speakers and 82db for the subs. When i reduce the speakers x over i get a dip. I have played around with phase and distance settings but with no change.


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## Muzikal-JRNE (Jun 8, 2009)

When you say mid-bass punch, you are probably talking about the 50-100Hz range. It sounds like you are checking/measuring you response using REW. Can you post a graph of your measurements? Do you have an EQ outside of Audussey?

Cheers, Joe


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi joe

As soon as i get home i will run some graphs off for. I only use multi eq as i dont like dynamic eq. I dont use any other eq. From memory if running rew grapghs of my front speakers when set to large they go down to aroung 50hz not the stated 38 in the specs.


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## Muzikal-JRNE (Jun 8, 2009)

gperkins_1973 said:


> As soon as i get home i will run some graphs off for. I only use multi eq as i dont like dynamic eq. I dont use any other eq. From memory if running rew grapghs of my front speakers when set to large they go down to aroung 50hz not the stated 38 in the specs.


Sounds like a good plan. I would recommend to take the following measurements at your main listening position:

(1) Main speakers L/R full range w/o sub(s).

(2) Sub(s) only w/ the mains set to large w/ double bass turned on. 
----{This should remove the LP crossover from the sub(s)}
----[alternate: set LP crossover to its highest setting.]

(3) Combined L/R and sub(s) w/ current (100Hz) crossover settings.

<Optional>
(4) Combined L/R and sub(s) w/ (90Hz) crossover settings.
(5) Combined L/R and sub(s) w/ (80Hz) crossover settings.
(6) Combined L/R and sub(s) w/ (70Hz) crossover settings.


Keep the volume at the same level for all measurements. 


What sub(s) are you running? Does the sub amp have any LP or HP crossovers activated on it? Please tell us about your subwoofer(s) location(s). What levels are you listening at when you feel how need more mid-bass -20bB, -10dB, all levels, etc. How do you feel about your current low/sub-bass (10-40Hz) levels/output?


Cheers, Joe


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Joe,
This is a very interesting case as you have such capable Mains. Out of curiosity. what kind of Subwoofer are you using? With the 876 having such a strong Amplifier Stage, I really do not think power is an issue unless you have an exceptionally large Room. 

To think somewhat outside the box, you could mate the RS6's to the Subwoofer via High Level and set your Speakers to Full Range. LFE Information is routed to the Mains when no Subwoofer is selected so you would not lose it. Moreover, an exceptionally low amount of Movie Soundtracks place lower octave information on the Surrounds and Center Channel. This is certainly not a conventional solution, but I have seen it work in some cases. Also, do you find the Midbass Performance better when Audyssey is turned off? And just to cover all bases, have you made sure the Drivers in your Mains are not damaged?
Cheers,
J


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi there,

I am running two off these.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...x-15-cu-ft-fiq18-multi-tuned-ported-subs.html

cheers

Graham


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Wow. Very impressive Graham. I suppose it rules out using a High Pass. While interesting to postulate, I am sure it must be frustrating to not get the SQ you are after. Also, sorry for addressing the last Post to Joe. I was on the phone with my Mother and was multitasking and dropped the ball. My sincerest apologies for the mistake.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

I will run some graphs tomorrow. So will post the results to see what you guys think.

cheers

Graham


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## Muzikal-JRNE (Jun 8, 2009)

Very nice subs Graham! When plotting the response data please use 1/6 or less smoothing (1/12 preferred), I noticed you used 1/3 in some of your previous posts. Oh... and as for my earlier question about how you feel about your low/sub (10-40Hz) bass levels... I think you are doin' alright 

Cheers, Joe


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Something defo not going right tonight. Did the calibrate to 75db thing and spl meter and got very low levels.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

I changed the spl meter to 80hz from 70hz and I didn't get the low levels. Now look at my audyssey on and off graph. This is full range. Notice the dip I get at 90hz with audyssey ON


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Here's a graph which goes to 3k with 100hz crossover


Audyssey before and after.

Audyssey is in green.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Here's 0-3khz with Audssey on and off with full range.

It looks like audyssey is putting the dip between 60-120hz.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Right let's start again.

Here's my subs only sweep with Audyssey crossed at 100hz and no smoothing.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Right here you go. This is sub only with no speakers and different crossover settings.

Red 100hz sub

Green 80hz sub

Blue 60hz sub


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Here's the subs and fronts with 100hz crossover for the sub and 60hz for the speakers


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Graham, I would do DIY speakers with the Plastic SEOS-12 waveguide.

While there's no specific design out there yet, it's only a very short matter of time before you can an opportunity to _really_ do something nice.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

I turned the subs back to how they were originally and it sounds alot better. Now the wierd thing is when they were facing forwards they dropped off at 100hz like a brick. Now I have a 100hz crossover engaged and you would think that was the reason why but when I turned them back the sub only graph didnt drop off until around 120-130hz. So when I did a sub and speaker sweep the sub/speaker crossover frequency the dip has gone. The bass sounds much deeper and vocals sound fuller.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

What driver would you reccomend with those. I know very little about those types of speakers and how you would even design one.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

gperkins_1973 said:


> What driver would you reccomend with those. I know very little about those types of speakers and how you would even design one.


Speaker design is really complex, and an expensive investment too. If you just want great results I would patiently hold out for a full design to be established, and just construct that. You can preorder the waveguides here:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/plastic-seos-12/seos12-0rdering/plastic-seos-ht-shack.html

And then you just need to be patient.


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## Muzikal-JRNE (Jun 8, 2009)

Hi Graham. Nice job on your measurement graphs! Your issues at listening position from 50-150Hz appear to be from room boundary interactions not innate speaker/sub limitations. The distance between the speaker-woofer/subwoofer driver face and the rear wall cause cancellations, and the distance brtween the speaker-woofer to the floor cause cancellations as well. These cancellations are in the mid/upper bass region. (All room boundaries {ceiling, side walls, rear wall etc.} actually cause constructive/destructive modal interactions, but those are the main ones.) 

When is the last time you ran a full Audyssey setup? I had issues similar to yours for years, and I wasn't able to completely overcome them until I got a receiver with Audyssey MultiEQ-XT (which I believe the TX-SR876 has). It solved all my destructive room interference issues in the mid bass region (70-200Hz for me). Your main speakers may become limitations when approaching high/reference levels, but not before their output limits.


Cheers, Joe


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

I will take a pic to show where the sub and speakers are.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi there,

I forgot to attach a pic. Duh! I did this in sketchup a while back but this is how my set up looks like and where everything is placed.

Moving the subs back to where they are now has removed the dip between 80-120hz I was getting.

cheers
Graham


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