# Which is more important to start, quality mains or quality sub?



## lupp5214 (Feb 15, 2013)

I'm setting up a home theater from scratch and have my projector, screen, and receiver set to go but can't decide on what I should do for speakers and sub. I'm constantly going back and forth between budget speakers and a quality sub or vice versa. I thought I had it figured out with the Pioneer fs52's but a friend of mine had them and I liked them but I'm not sure if they are exactly what I'm looking for. I don't really do any music listening pretty much just movies. My room is about 23x18x8. I'm fine starting out with a 3.1 configuration at first and then adding surrounds when I get the funds if needed.

What I've been looking at for budget mains are:

Primus 363 (just saw them on Fry's for $117 a piece)
JBL ES80 ($144 a piece)
Pioneer fs52 (kind of on the fence about these)

I know there are a lot more out there but these are just a couple I was looking at. Probably looking to spend $100-150 per speaker and then a center channel as well.

If I went with budget mains I was looking at a quality subwoofer probably something along the lines of 
hsu vtf3-mk4 or sp12-nsd and looking to add a second sub along the way. 

If I went with more expensive mains I was looking at:

Hsu HB-1 MK2 and matching center channel (I think it was around $750 with shipping for all three)
Energy RC-70's (I've seen these on sale for cheaper but right now I could get them for about $800 shipped)


Once again I know there's a lot more out there I just wanted to let you know kind of the price range I was looking at. Then I would look at also adding a budget sub with something like this.

My budget for all the speakers would be around $1200. Not sure where to start so some good feedback would be very much appreciated.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

lupp5214 said:


> I don't really do any music listening pretty much just movies. My room is about 23x18x8. I'm fine starting out with a 3.1 configuration at first and then adding surrounds when I get the funds if needed.
> 
> What I've been looking at for budget mains are:
> 
> ...


At 3300+ cubic feet your room is rather large, which means your speakers and sub will need to be as well. The Primus would be a good choice, as would the matching PC351 center. If you went 3.1 that would leave you about $700 for a sub, and you're going to need every penny of it.

The Rythmik LV12R might be able to handle that much space, so it's probably worth looking into. Same with the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX. Although a touch over budget the PowerSound Audio XS15 would be my first choice. It would be better able to handle that volume of space then perhaps anything else you can get in the $700 price range.


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## STRONGBADF1 (Oct 9, 2008)

If it were me, I would call all the major sub companies and ask for a recommendation. When on a tight budget, wasting any money affects the final result significantly. 

The stereo fronts are the most important speakers for me but I don't like spending good money after bad so if you are dead set on getting speakers and a sub at the same time go with a 2.1 setup to maximize performance. Get the best sub that will do what you need it to do in your room and then the best left and right front speakers you can afford after that. Remember that you can move them to surround duty when you decide to get more speakers later. This way you can start enjoying your room and have a non money wasting upgrade path for the future.

Good luck!


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

What did you spend on your other gear:
Screen
Projector
Media players
AVR
Special furniture


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

Sounds like you are on the right track and have received some good advice in the previous posts. Something like the Primus 363 and HSU is a pretty good budget system. I also agree with starting with a 2.1 system or even a 2.0. I would much rather have a good 2.0 or 2.1 system rather than a mediocre 5.1


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## lupp5214 (Feb 15, 2013)

On my screen, projector, and AVR I've spent about $2000 so far


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

IMO you should get the best mains you can almost afford! 

Not only that, don't even think about skimping about the quality of your center channel speaker. It should be close to (in quality) or even better than the left and right speakers. That it carries most of the dialogue and a lot of the front sound makes it extremely important. 

I think getting the basics right makes the rest easy. Your front three speakers are the basics. Get them right first and worry about a sub and surrounds afterwards.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

I'd vote mains and build it slow. Ever look at used speakers? I've never had a speaker go bad just make sure you can test them or return them it would be better bang for your buck.


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## lupp5214 (Feb 15, 2013)

Thanks for all of the great info. I do appreciate it. I'm really leaning toward starting out with a good quality 
2.0 system (and center if possible) and adding a quality sub in a month or so. It seems like the right thing to do. Like you said build it slow. So, that being said, any suggestions for around $1000? The only higher end speakers I've listened to were Paradigm's (I must say I do like their speakers). All I have to go on after that is reviews and recommendations. 

I was also wondering if it might be a good idea to start with two quality bookshelves as mains that I can convert to surrounds and a quality center channel. Then I could add my mains and sub when I have the funds and have a really nice 5.1.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

That sounds like a great idea. I have klipsch speakers for my main system and was looking at the RB-81. Limited on listening time with them so far but they sounded good and have a eight inch woofer.


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## jimfrench (Jan 6, 2012)

nova said:


> Sounds like you are on the right track and have received some good advice in the previous posts. Something like the Primus 363 and HSU is a pretty good budget system. I also agree with starting with a 2.1 system or even a 2.0. I would much rather have a good 2.0 or 2.1 system rather than a mediocre 5.1


I agree with these comments and would add only to pick a system that has a matching center. This can be added later, so a system that has been introduced in the last couple of years would give some time for this. Speaker companies don't usually make major changes quickly to any line. Also, the sub is important for movies, so getting the right one is worth the wait, too. Worked for me!


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

lupp5214 said:


> Thanks for all of the great info. I do appreciate it. I'm really leaning toward starting out with a good quality 2.0 system (and center if possible) and adding a quality sub in a month or so. It seems like the right thing to do. Like you said build it slow.


In theory that sounds like the best approach, but it may not necessarily be. If you get a 2.0 or 2.1 system you won't be doing anything other then amplifying the generic sound your TV is outputting - there will be no Dolby, no DTS, no effects, etc. In order to achieve at least some of the true HT experience you'll need at least a 3.1 system. Anything less and all you're essentially doing is making the TV louder.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

I've been enjoying 2.1 movies for over 15 years. Increased dynamics and greater range in frequency are realized, as well as greater clarity of dialogue and other sounds. 

I feel starting a solid 2.0 or 2.1 system is a great, cost effective way to build a surround sound home theater piece by piece. I am moving to surround sound very soon, (bought 3 more matching speakers, a Blu-Ray player and an AVR).


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

tesseract said:


> I've been enjoying 2.1 movies for over 15 years. Increased dynamics and greater range in frequency are realized, as well as greater clarity of dialogue and other sounds.
> 
> I feel starting a solid 2.0 or 2.1 system is a great, cost effective way to build a surround sound home theater piece by piece. I am moving to surround sound very soon, (bought 3 more matching speakers, a Blu-Ray player and an AVR).


Dennis, it's high time you joined the 21st century and bought into the whole HT thing. It's not a fad, trust me...


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

I have heard a lot of surround systems over the years. Most of them do not do music as well as I need.

I think that mostly has to do with setup. People tend to put speakers where they look good and that rarely jives with where they sound best. EQ and room correction can only do so much, and can often do harm. Plus, when listening to two channel music, you have the unused speakers vibrating sympathetic resonances. I am mostly going to surround for the SACD, DVD-A and Blu-Ray music and concert performances I have or will own in the future, and movies will be more fun, for sure. 

A good stereo system is extremely enjoyable, a well setup 2.0 or 2.1 system spanks for movies and music! For someone starting out, I feel that it is a good base to build on. It also gives a person starting out a good feel for what a proper soundstage and imaging within that stage sounds like. That is the audio illusion we are shooting for in this hobby.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I agree that the front 3 channels and the sub can not be skimped on particularly in a room your size. Start with good mains and phantom the centre channel for now then get a good quality sub and ad a matching centre channel after that. You wont regret going that route.


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## lupp5214 (Feb 15, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> I agree that the front 3 channels and the sub can not be skimped on particularly in a room your size. Start with good mains and phantom the centre channel for now then get a good quality sub and ad a matching centre channel after that. You wont regret going that route.


That's definitely what I would want to do. I'm ok with not having the perfect setup right away and trying to find a good deal on ebay or craigslist. I know I'm switching gears here a little bit, but speaking of Craigslist, of course I've been scouring all of the classifieds and I came across someone selling a set of Jamo 809's in dark apple as well as a pair of Jamo c80 surrounds in dark apple. All 4 speakers for probably $1400. He said that the speakers are new. The 809's are not in the box but the C80's are in the box. He said that he received everything from a friend of his who owned an electronics store and I believe it was going out of business. I know absolutely nothing about Jamo speakers. Thought maybe someone with some experience with these speakers could tell me a little more about them.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

If they are local see if you can listen to them. What sounds good to some doesn't to others.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Im not a big fan of Jamo, I think for the money you can do much better.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

I'd go listen to the Jamo speakers just for fun, they look pretty nice from my reading. If anything, it gets your ears a little more experience. I don't care for lower end Jamo products, but these might be pretty decent. Is there a center channel speaker for sale, too? 

HTS moderator Jungle Jack recommends these speakers a lot. I don't recall what models I auditioned in the past, it might have been these, but every Focal I've heard impresses. The offset tweeter on the center channel shows attention to detail. Definitely better than the Infinity Primus, which are good speakers in their own right.

http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...loorstanding-Speakers-Gloss-Black-Pair/1.html

http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...Dual-6-Center-Speaker-Gloss-Black-Each/1.html


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

While not quite as efficient as the Focal (on paper anyway, reality might differ) the Arx A5 is a great starting point for a theater. I almost bought these for myself, but went a different direction.

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?p=arx-a5-floorstanding-loudspeaker&products_id=227&


HTS Reviewer/Moderator Jman reviewed the smaller Arx speakers in the series. The 2Ab would make a nice center for an A5 pair.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...reviews/65546-arx-a1b-a2b-speaker-review.html


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

@ $1400 I think I would pass on the jamo, @ < $1000 they become more interesting.....but, they are 6 ohm speakers and they are 89dB sensitivity...


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## koyaan (Mar 2, 2010)

I'd certainly advise spending the whole wad on the best mains you can afford. A good 2.0 system isn't bad for starters and can always be added to , ganerally still employing the speakers yoy purchased originally in some capacity. If you go with cheaper speakers, you probably end up scrapping them entirely at some point, that includes the sub as adding a second sub of diffrent size gererall doesen't work out well.


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## Infrasonic (Sep 28, 2010)

The HSU HB-1 MK2's sound excellent and they can sometimes put together some sort of package for you (2.1/3.1 etc.) at a discount. I have heard the VTF-3 MK4 in a similar sized room as yours and it was able to pressurize it (both ports open, Q7).


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## lupp5214 (Feb 15, 2013)

Infrasonic said:


> The HSU HB-1 MK2's sound excellent and they can sometimes put together some sort of package for you (2.1/3.1 etc.) at a discount. I have heard the VTF-3 MK4 in a similar sized room as yours and it was able to pressurize it (both ports open, Q7).


Good to know. I've been in contact with the Hsu staff before and they're always very helpful. I haven't asked if they could help me out but it's sure worth a try. I guess my biggest question is will these speakers be able to fill a room of my size?


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## Infrasonic (Sep 28, 2010)

They are surprisingly powerful for their size and with the horn design they can work well in even a larger room without sounding over-driven. 

The HSU staff will give it to you straight though, you can even call and speak to the Dr. himself - if he doesn't think they will work he'll tell you. They also have some sort of 30-day return policy but I'm not sure about the details.


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## Archaea (Jun 5, 2011)

A higher quality sub is more important than higher quality mains in my opinion.

A good quality sub can make a pair of mediocre speakers sound better.
A mediocre sub cannot make a pair of good quality speakers sound better.

But hey - I'm a subwoofer enthusiast and to me a quality sub MAKES the home theater.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

B- one said:


> I'd vote mains and build it slow. Ever look at used speakers? I've never had a speaker go bad just make sure you can test them or return them it would be better bang for your buck.


:TT. Good main LEFT RIGHT & CENTER make for a much more enjoyable system. Nothing is worse than poor highs, mids, and dialogue. I'd happily sell my subwoofer to upgrade my Paradigm Studios for Paradigm Signatures. My studios have enough bass, so a loss of a subwoofer is not much of a big deal. 

Just wondering though, how small of a budget are you going to be working with?


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

"Which is more important to start, quality mains or quality sub?"

Try listening to your mains with no subwoofer. Now try listening to your subwoofer with no mains.

Subs produce only the bottom 2 octaves. The mains reproduce most of what you hear, and also create the soundstage and imaging/depth within that stage. This is the stereo illusion. Sure bass is fun, but why would you ever want to exchange a properly constructed soundstage for simple bombast?


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## Acudeftechguy (Jul 8, 2011)

I don't see as straightforward like that.

It's all relative.

For example, if you compared a $200/Pr speaker vs $2,000/Pr speaker and can't even tell a significant difference, then perhaps budgeting more for subs may be felicitous. 

And vice versa. 

So perhaps take the middle road?


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Can I pick the center as more important then either?


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I personally think every speaker is equally important though if I were going to skimp anywhere it would be on the surrounds. Having said that when I was upgrading the sub did have the biggest impact though I mostly watch movies. If I were starting over I would piece it together one speaker at a time if I had to. In the long run you'll be much happier and less likely to be constantly upgrading.


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## Acudeftechguy (Jul 8, 2011)

Well, would get the $589 delivered Rythmik LV12R rear ported sub. The remaining balance goes to speakers.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

I should add that replacing a subwoofer is much easier and cheaper than replacing 5 or 7 main speakers. The subwoofer is roughly 10-20% of the cost of a complete theater speaker system (depending on brand). A full Paradigm Signature setup using Signature S8 as mains will run you about $18K, the matching subwoofer will cost about $3000-5000.


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## Acudeftechguy (Jul 8, 2011)

8086 said:


> I should add that replacing a subwoofer is much easier and cheaper than replacing 5 or 7 main speakers. The subwoofer is roughly 10-20% of the cost of a complete theater speaker system (depending on brand). A full Paradigm Signature setup using Signature S8 as mains will run you about $18K, the matching subwoofer will cost about $3000-5000.


Depends on how big and heavy your sub is. It ain't easy replacing a 175-200 lbs sub.:hsd:

It's much easier replacing an all-bookshelf speaker system or when the main front speakers only weigh 50 lbs each. :T


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Acudeftechguy said:


> Depends on how big and heavy your sub is. It ain't easy replacing a 175-200 lbs sub.:hsd:
> 
> It's much easier replacing an all-bookshelf speaker system or when the main front speakers only weigh 50 lbs each. :T


When I mean ease, I mean ease on the Wallet.:dollarsign::spend::dollarsign: If getting a friend to help you move a subwoofer will save you $10k, then I'm sure he'd be willing to help make the change for a beer and a movie. :thankyou: In my case, my subwoofer weighs less than 80 pounds and can be moved by one man. If the opening poster is buying a subwoofer that weighs as much as you suggest then his budget is much bigger than mine or probably yours. Quality front mains can weigh 100-200LBS each. Can you imagine the freight charges on those?

The Subs I used as a comparison are of the same product family for those main speakers. Cheaper mains are going to have a cheaper sub in their product family.


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## Acudeftechguy (Jul 8, 2011)

8086 said:


> When I mean ease, I mean ease on the Wallet.:dollarsign::spend::dollarsign: If getting a friend to help you move a subwoofer will save you $10k, then I'm sure he'd be willing to help you for a beer and a movie. :thankyou::filmstrip:
> 
> The Subs I used as a comparison are of the same product family for those main speakers. Cheaper mains are going to have a cheaper sub in their product family.


I don't use the same brand sub as my speakers. Most audiophiles don't because the ID brand subs outperform B&M subs, especially at similar prices.

Subwoofer Performance CEA Standard (THD <10%, except for BIC sub) 2 Meters SPL @ 20/32/40/50/63 Hz:

$300 BIC PL-200: 84.0/102.5/107.7/110.4/108.1
$500 Cadence CSX15MK II: 83.8/93.3/98.6/109.3/115.5
$1200 B&W ASW-610XP: 85.1/96.1/101.5/105.9/108.9
$500 EMP ES1010i: 85.0/97.0/102.5/106.0/105.0
$700 Emotiva X-Ref 12: 81.0/99.1/103.5/107.6/108.5
$1600 Klipsch SW-311: 84.2/102.6/105.3/108.6/111.4
$769 SVS PB12-NSD: 103.2/105.9/106.5/107.3/108.0
$4000 Velodyne DD15+: 97.0/102.0/109.0/109.0/112.0
$900 Aperion Bravus II 12D: 87.0/105.3/109.8/112.6/112.2
$879 Velodyne EQ-MAX15: 84.8/104.2/110.0/114.2/114.8
$1,200 RBH SX-12: 87.7/108.0/111.1/113.7/112.7
$650 Outlaw LFM-1EX: 101.0/110.7/112.3/113.7/113.8
$800 Power Sound XV15: 102.7/109.6/113.7/116.6/114.7
$800 Epik Empire: 102.2/109.7/113.2/116.4/119.2
$2200 JL Audio F112: 92.8/112.4/116.2/113.3/117.6
$1700 Funk FW12X: 107.0/112.4/114.0/113.9/113.1
$1200 SVS PB12+: 107.0/111.5/114.3/115.3/115.3
$9,000 Paradigm Sig Sub2: 106.4/109.9/113.2/116.9/120.2
$900 Hsu VTF-15H: 103.9/113.0/115.7/115.7/115.6
$5,000 Velodyne DD18+: 103.4/113.0/115.8/116.8/115.3
$2,000 SVS PB13 Ultra: 110.6/113.5/115.5/117.5/117.8
$700 Chase HT VS18.1: 111.1/ 116.0/118.1/117.8/117.2
$1,200 Rythmik FV15HP: 108.1/117.0/119.5/119.1/118.8


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Acudeftechguy said:


> *I don't use the same brand sub as my speakers*. Most audiophiles don't because the ID brand subs outperform B&M subs, especially at similar prices.
> 
> Subwoofer Performance CEA Standard (THD <10%, except for BIC sub) 2 Meters SPL @ 20/32/40/50/63 Hz:


I get that, but I used an apples to apples, paradigm to paradigm for sub vs mains price comparison. Numbers only mean so much and don't tell a complete picture compared to an actual listening test for subwoofer musicality, which is something that often does not come cheap. Two subs with similar measured test results won't be the same in a subjective listening test where one sub may sound boomy and the other may sound symphonic. 

Put another way, numbers will only show you what part of the spectrum it can produce but not how it can produce it with accuracy or fine detail. You could say its like the difference between a hammer and a scalpel for carving a turkey; both may be made of the same surgical stainless steel, both may have the same hardness, heat treatment, and sharpness, but one is going to be much more precise.

Bottom line, there is no way a $300 BIC sub will ever sound as good as a $5,000 veolodyne, JL, or Paradigm subwoofer; even if the scientific test results are (theoretically) similar.


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## Acudeftechguy (Jul 8, 2011)

8086 said:


> I get that, but I used an apples to apples, paradigm to paradigm for sub vs mains price comparison. Numbers only mean so much and don't tell a complete picture compared to an actual listening test for subwoofer musicality, which is something that often does not come cheap. Two subs with similar measured test results won't be the same in a subjective listening test where one sub may sound boomy and the other may sound symphonic.
> 
> Put another way, numbers will only show you what part of the spectrum it can produce but not how it can produce it with accuracy or fine detail. You could say its like the difference between a hammer and a scalpel for carving a turkey; both may be made of the same surgical stainless steel, both may have the same hardness, heat treatment, and sharpness, but one is going to be much more precise.
> 
> Bottom line, there is no way a $300 BIC sub will ever sound as good as a $5,000 veolodyne, JL, or Paradigm subwoofer; even if the scientific test results are (theoretically) similar.


As stated, except for the cheap BIC, all the other numbers are done @ < 10% THD standard, so they are output w/ accuracy. 

I have compared high end expensive subs. There is utterly nothing more "musical" or accurate or finer detail about them compared to something like the $1K+ subs from Funk, Rythmik, SVS, HSU, etc. These subs are accurate and tight (Q< 0.5).


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