# Klipschorns and Room Treatments



## hjones4841

Although I have been an audio "nut" for 48 years, I have only recently become interested in correctly applying room treatments. I have had first reflection absorption up for several years, but only after a phone call from Bryan of GIK this week have I become seriously interested in bass trapping.

My room is smallish for what I have in it. There are two pairs of Klipschorns (a 1998 vintage pair and a 1978 vintage pair; the 1978 pair was upgraded with the factory kits to better match the 1998 ones), a Belle Klipsch for center, a Velodyne FSR-18 sub, and a pair of Heresy IIIs on the side walls to round out the 7.1 setup. All driven from a Denon 5805 receiver, normally with Audyssey ON (that may change). The room is 12.5'x20.5'x8' with the L/C/R and rears along the 12.5' walls. The sub is between L and C.

Overall I have been very happy with the system, but always wondered what I was missing by not measuring the room and making compensation in the bass. Now that measurement tools are reasonably affordable, here I go. I have the ECM 8000 and the Behringer mixer on order as well as two of GIK's Monster traps with stands coming to get started.

Finding places for traps at the corners is tough. From the top of the K'horns to the ceiling is 42", so that means custom or DIY traps or horizontal 48" ones in the corners at the ceiling. Bryan suggested the Monsters on stands to put behind the listening chair and a pair of Tri Traps up front, located after taking some measurements. Since I needed to purchase the mic and mixer, I waited on the Tri Traps.

Some questions:

1) First, the K'horn's bass horn crosses over at 400 Hz. Seems that if I put Tri Traps on the floor near the mouth of the bass horn there would be near field absorption. Would that also happen with the traps at the ceiling corners?

2) The general consenus seems to be to cross over even full range speakers at 80Hz or so. Good idea also for the K'horns? Sure hate to lose that bottom 40Hz or so from the horns.

3) I have a Creative X-Fi Extreme Audio Notebook soundcard plugged into the ExpressCard slot of my laptop. It does not duplex (cannot simultaneously monitor). Is there a USB card that will? I have a workaround - moving a desktop PC into the room - but much rather carry the laptop.

4) Any other K'horn users that wish to share thier room correction stories?

Thanks.


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## bpape

Tri Traps up high will be fine. Below, I wouldn't recommend.

The reason to cross over is to allow flexibility in placing whatever is generating 80hz down to allow smoother response without having to move mains. The lower you cross over, the less benefit there will be.

Several of the external Soundblaster USB units will work just fine.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

Thanks, Bryan. The traps, mic, and mixer should be here early next week. I will post some before/after waterfalls as I get going with the room treatments.


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## hjones4841

I don't have enough posts to add a photo file yet. I ran some measurements this afternoon using REW and the Denon mic (calibration unknown). Per the waterfall plots of the sub only, I have significant ringing at 25 & 57 Hz. The same ringing shows up when the left K'horn is driven. Not much I can do about the 25Hz one, but maybe the Monster traps will help on the 57Hz one.

FR plots of the sub only are MUCH smoother with Audyssey room correction OFF. Significant difference. Not sure what is going on with the mids and highs with Audyssesy - did not measure above 100Hz.


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## hjones4841

I got the ECM8000 and Behringer mixer yesterday and the two Monster traps. Only had a little play time, but did notice that the Monsters have a positive effect even on the 26Hz room mode. I only slid them around to a few places, so lots more time needed to find the best place as well as the need to add more traps later on.

I did notice that the response irregularities in the bass were more pronounced when measuring with the ECM8000 than with the Denon Audyssey mic - guess that was to be expected since others have said that the Denon mic is not that linear in the bass.

Also noticed that the subwoofer FR plot is much smoother with Audyssey OFF (all room correction turned off). This is with the first generation Audyssey in the Denon 5805 - no dynamic EQ. Even the receiver's FLAT EQ position was worse than no correction. The mic was in the same position for all measurements and Audyssey is only averaging three chair positions, all in a straight row across the room. I will post some plots in a few days to illustrate what is going on.

Hope to have more time this weekend to do more measurements and post some graphs. I have a BFD on order to play with and to try a house curve as others suggest.

I can tell you that the subjective improvement in bass with the traps in the room is far greater than measurements show. The bass on 24 and House last night subjectively was much improved - likely due to positive effects on the mains above 100Hz (I only measured the sub and it only up to 100 Hz).

Bryan: Right now they are in your suggested position - behind the main listening position in front of the fireplace on the stands. I did shove them over to the side walls - not much difference. I also put them on top of the rear K'horns and the waterfall actually looked a little worse than in front of the fireplace, but they were not quite at the ceiling. I ran out of time before I could push them to the front of the room. One note about the Monster traps on the stands - they are not very stable when on carpet. Not much can be done, I suppose, due to the relative high center of gravity. Also was kinda disappointed with the screws for the stands into the soft side wood - never could get them very tight.


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## bpape

Well, that's a good thing that the rear and the sides were not that much differen from a decay standpoint as they'll deal with different things from a frequency response standpoint.

Not sure what's up with the screws - we've not had problems with them. 

Bryan


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## hjones4841

I made a number of measurements today. First up are baseline plots without the Monster traps in the room and with Audyssey ON and OFF to see if LF FR is better with Audyssey OFF as I had earlier thought. First, here is Sub and Left Front with Audyssey's settings. I re-ran Audyssey to make sure I had an accurate baseline. Only the main listening, center recliner position is measured.

Speaker configurations as set by Audyssey are listed below. Channel levels are not listed, since they are not relevant to these measurements. All distances are in feet. Note that the tape measurements (below, in parentheses) are to the front of the speaker enclosures, not to the front of the horn drivers. If Audyssey primarily measures distance in the midrange, this can explain at least part of the differences (except for the sub) since the midrange drivers are at the rear of the enclosures. There is less of a difference between distances on the side surrounds; the midrange horns on the Heresys are not as deep as on the K’horns or the Belle. Sub is set as LFE+Main.

Front L&R: Large (no crossover set); distance: FL, 13.9 (tape measure: 12.2); FR, 13.4 (tape measure: 11.75)

Center: Large (no crossover set); distance: 12.3 (tape measure: 10.8)

Sub: On; Audyssey will not display the crossover freq. that it set for the sub. distance: 14.5 (tape measure: 11.08)

Side Surround: Large (no crossover set; this is odd - other times Audyssey has set them to small); distance L: 6.9 (tape measure: 6.25); R: 5.6 (tape measure: 5.2)

Surround Back: Large, 2 speakers (no crossover set); distance L: 10.7 (tape measure: 8); R: 9.8 (tape measure: 8.75)

Plot is of FR; green is Audyssey ON, purple is Room EQ off.


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## hjones4841

Here is the waterfall for the FR plot above, but with Audyssey OFF. Should have mentioned that all measurements were made with ECM8000, 802 mixer, Creative X-Fi notebook soundcard and at 75db +/- (held volume control constant, but some plots are higher/lower SPL due to FR differences.


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## hjones4841

Changing all crossover frequencies to 80Hz:
FR plot is subwoofer and LF on, no traps in room, audyssey ON with 80hz crossovers manually set: Red plot - Audyssey ON with 80Hz crossover; blue plot - Audyssey crossovers as above (all large); green plot - 80Hz crossovers, Room EQ OFF.


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## hjones4841

Now, the two Monster traps are in the room; side walls, horizontally on the floor, front edge about a foot from the mouth of the front bass horns.

FR & waterfall, Audyssey OFF; subwoofer and LF on. Green FR trace with the larger dips is with traps; other green trace is without traps.


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## hjones4841

Now, here is the waterfall for putting the traps at the rear center of room, 21” off back wall. Subwoofer and LF Mains ON, Audyssey OFF. 80Hz crossovers.


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## hjones4841

Here is the waterfall for moving the two traps to the rear corners, on the floor. For this measurement, I had to move the rear K'horns out of the corner (I have only 42" from the top of the speaker to the ceiling.) I am sure that moving them out of the corners affected FR and decay to some extent. The green overlay is the waterfall for the traps at the rear center of the room as described above - I did this to see the difference that the location made.

This was an attempt to predict the decay improvement of putting custom 42" Monster traps on top of the rear speakers.

Sub and LF mains on, 80Hz crossovers, Audyssey OFF.


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## hjones4841

Whew! This is more work that these worn out knees and back can handle. Maybe the system is good enough just like it is.... NOT!

Sure looks like more traps are in my future. Later on, I will post plots with the BFD inserted to see how much better the FR can be.


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## bpape

Nice job of looking at the options. Each has it's advantages and shows differences in FR and decay times. As you're seeing, 2 is helping but more are needed due to the room size and multiple items needing to be addressed.

As you add more, you'll also see a cumulative improvement in decay time down low.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

I put three more Monster traps on order yesterday with the custom height needed to go on top of the K'horns, so we will see how much difference that makes. Two are going in the back corners; the third was planned to go in the front left corner, but may end up elsewhere.

Bryan: I did not see your e-mail about symmetry until after I placed the order. I can always use the third one elsewhere if there is an obvious imbalance between the fronts. BTW, I asked about GIK's health during the recession - glad to know that you folks are doing OK! Many places closing their doors around here... including Hoopers, where I purchased most of my HT gear over the years.


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## bpape

Let me know if you need anything Harry. Sorry for the email timing.

As for business, well, Christmas wasn't as good as it usually is but it was certainly better than the average time of the year. January started a bit slow but is picking up very nicely. The factory in the UK is coming along. That just takes a while to get the word out.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

Bryan: In reading Ethan's excellent primer on acoustic treatment, I see that he recommends filling the cavity behind a trap with absorbent material. For corner mounting of the Monsters would there be any discernable improvement in <100Hz performance by filling the cavity with "pink stuff"? Gut feeling is no since the density is low.

Again, thanks for all your patience with us folks that are just now learning about room treatment. As I said in an earlier post, the subjective improvement of just adding the two is far greater than the numbers would suggest.

No problem on the 3rd trap. I know that I have a long way to go, so I will certainly find a place for it. There is a chance that a Tri Trap will fit on the window side, so that may be a better option later on. Wife reminded me this morning that I was spending way too much on this stuff, so I suppose a truly excellent Valentine gift is in order:bigsmile:


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## hjones4841

Forgot to mention that I did play around with the BFD this weekend. The primary benefit that I saw (and hear) is the ability to flatten out the sub response when Audyssey is ON. I don't recall the boost/cut db, but I ended up with 4 filters, one to re-gain a rolloff that Audyssey is introducing below about 25Hz or so.

I still like what Audyssey does for EQ in the mids and highs, so being able to leave it on and still have the smooth sub FR is beneficial.


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## bpape

If you add a bit of standard insulation behind the Monsters, it will help a little. It's not going to be a ton but down really deep, it will help some - certainly worth the very small expenditure to buy a roll of insulation.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

Bryan: The other 3 Monster traps arrived today and I have a question. Based on your comments about symmetry, I put two up front on top of the K'horns, including on the right side at the window. This leaves about 3" of the right side of the trap not pushed up to the wall - actually it is spanning the window. I think I read that corner traps should be against the wall and that an air gap would reduce performance. Your opinion, please.

The options that I have with the 5 traps (no budget for any more for a while) are two vertically up front in the corners, two horizontally in the back corners at ceiling level and the 5th in front of the fireplace in the rear center.

No time to run plots tonight, but should be able to post more on Saturday.

Thanks.


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## bpape

I'd do the 4 corners all vertically and straddling.

Having one edge of the Monster off the wall a few inches won't hurt at all. 

Bryan


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## hjones4841

I have my answer.

I just played the opening scene of Cars on Blu Ray (uncompressed PCM).

NEVER has that Velodyne sub sounded like THAT before.

Amazing, simply amazing...

Great job GIK! 

But of course, you knew that already:bigsmile:


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## bpape

Outstanding. Glad they're working well for you. It's so hard to explain what it can do when you control the bottom end and you actually end up with more, deeper, and cleaner bass. Once you hear it though - you're hooked.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

I think I am going to cut one of the 48" original ones down to 42" tomorrow and put it in the 4th corner on top of the other rear K'horn - that will get all corners done the same. Looks like it is do-able and would be easier (for me) than flying two at ceiling level. Plus, it would look better and I can easily fill the corner space with loose pink stuff. The remaining original one will stay on the stand in front of the fireplace.

Even my wife noticed the difference last night (which is saying a lot) on network TV shows. Vocals and speech are firmly locked to the center like never before with less "chestiness" as others have described.

The room is definately deader in mid/high freqs now. Either I have over done it with the wall mounted first reflection panels or I just need to get used to it. Also need to re-run Audyssey and let it adjust to the additional absorption.

Hope to have time to post some "after" plots tomorrow.


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## bpape

Before you go trying to cut things up, try mounting it horizontally and straddling the wall/ceiling junction.


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## hjones4841

OK, I will try that with the two 48" ones and use the 3rd 42" one in front of the fireplace on one of the stands. I have some large black "L" brackets that I can mount on the side walls to secure the bottom of the traps & then tie them off at the top. 

I tried putting them horizontally on top of the rear K'horns when I first got them, but did not like the look. Won't be as noticeable at the ceiling.


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## bpape

Good. It's just almost impossible to redo these to a different size due to the construction. If you have to have them done, I'd prefer to do it at the factory.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

I was able to "escape" the office this afternoon and mounted the 48" Monster traps horizontally at ceiling level above the rear K'horns. The 42" traps are located as follows: 1 each on top of the L/R mains; the third is on a GIK stand in front of the fireplace, in the center of the rear wall, about 21" off the rear wall.

I could tell last night that "magic" had happened in the room with the additional traps. Here is the first "after" waterfall. Conditions are as follows:

Sub only; 80Hz crossover; Audyssey & BFD off, mic in center chair. Notice the significant reduction in ringing in the 50-60Hz range. The ringing around 100Hz may be a buzz in the suspended ceiling - gotta check on that...


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## hjones4841

Hmmm waterfall plot did not attach to the previous post. Here it is.


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## hjones4841

Here is the FR plot for the above measurement.


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## hjones4841

Here is the FR plot with the same setup as before, sub only but Audyssey turned ON. Note that I DID re-run Audyssey before these measurements to compensate for the added traps. Truly odd results; it seems that it is compensating for bass from the mains, since it set them to LARGE. Not even gonna bother with a waterfall for this one.


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## hjones4841

Now, BFD ON, Audysset OFF, sub only, no smoothing. 6 filters set on BFD. Not bad, not bad at all.


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## hjones4841

Waterfall for the above settings: Audyssey off, BFD ON, sub only. Looks like I picked up some ringing in the 30-60Hz range. Not sure why. Oh well, gonna listen to some music instead of sweep tones for a while.


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## bpape

Looking pretty good. Try broadening the Q of the EQ band you have between 30 and 40Hz.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

Yeah, I see that now. The last filter I set was a broad one centered at 20Hz to try to compensate for the LF rolloff in the BFD. I may have some overlap there. Makes sense that a narrow Q filter would cause electronic ringing, but perhaps not that much?

Also, I noticed as I was taking everything down that the ECM8000 was pointed almost horizontally, instead of vertically. I forgot to reposition it on the tripod after mounting the Denon mic to run Audyssey. That could account for some of the differences in the graphs after the first one that I posted.

Anyway, I had XM Watercolors Jazz playing from DirecTV for a while - very, very smooth bass response, especially on electric bass as it ran up and down the scale. Impressive difference.

I was going to mount the 3rd 42" trap from the ceiling above the fireplace, but was too tired. Wouldn't mind freeing up the floor space.

Do you think others would be interested in seeing pictures of the hanging Monster traps with a description of how I did it? I could start a new thread...


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## bpape

Pics are always helpful. I think this thread would be a good place for them though just to keep things together.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

Bryan: As noted in previous posts, adding the 3 traps after the first 2 made a huge difference. I might have room to put a couple more Monsters in the room in a month or so (maybe side walls at ceiling), but am wondering where the cost/benefit end point is in all this.

I read posts such as those by thewire and others that indicate the need for many traps in a small room such as mine. How do I judge how much is enough? Surely the waterfall plots indicate that some improvement can be made, but I have discovered during this work that subjective performance improvement is far greater than measurements suggest.

Thanks.


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## bpape

You're absolutely correct. You've made great strides in response and decay time. You're still using EQ to smooth the curve which is fine. Adding additional treatments may or may not improve the response depending on whether the position required is feasible. It will definitely help more with the decay time but be realistic about the ringing down in the 20's. That's just about impossible to completely deal with using any kind of sane treatments.

You're also correct that subjective improvements can be very different than just pure measurements. Many other things are impacted by getting the bass under control.

While I'd be stupid to not want to sell you more treatments, my recommendation right now would be to hold tight and live with this for a while and really get used to what each thing is doing for you. Then, you can move a couple of the things around and see what other positions might buy you while understanding what things are being caused by removing what you've just done.

At that point, you'll be better informed to make a good decision as to the cost/benefit of adding a couple more.

Also, remember that any EQ you've done now is only valid for this configuration. Move any of the treatments, move the seating, move anything else, and you'll need to start at 0 again for EQ and readjust accordingly.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

Sounds like a plan, Bryan. I need to pick up some R30 batts for the attic within the next 2-3 weeks (shoulda never allowed the builder to use blown-in!), so I may try laying a few above the ceiling tiles on the sides of the room before hauling them into the attic just to see what that does.

Thanks again for all your advice. I was really on the fence about traps until your phone call.


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## bpape

No problem at all. If you haven't done the drop ceiling yet, I'd definitely do that before doing anything else.

Bryan


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## fredk

Thats a very nice bass response you have in your room! I would kill to get even close to that in my room. I would look at the mids and highs to see what needs to be done there before playing any more with the bass.


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## hjones4841

Thanks, fredk. The traps sure allow the 18" sub driver to "breathe". It always seemed that there was more bass outside the room than inside. The sub would definately shake the floors upstairs, but that "punch" was missing inside the room. Not anymore.

I haven't measured the response in the other two chairs; of course there will be some variation. The highs are indeed a little muted now, especially with six 4" thick first reflection panels also in the room. I think I may tweak the manual EQ settings on the receiver a little. I used to like having Audyssey on but since I added the bass traps, the overall system sounds better with it off.


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## fredk

I have seen people put wood slats in front of their broaband traps to bring back some of the mids/highs.

For fun, take a look at the measurements in my room in the 'Room Treatment Round Two' thread. You'll see why I like your results so much.


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## bpape

Be very careful with covering our panels. If you put anything on them, you're going to kill the membrane effect on the front. Also, even though it's not sealed behind, you can still get some 'tuning' based on the thickness of the slats and the space between them.

I'd listen for a while as it is before doing anything. Once you've had them in place a few weeks, go back in and pull them out of the room and see how you like the bass and also the upper mids and highs. I personally think you'll not like either.


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## thewire

I would try without using the auto-setup for at least a few days also just to get familiar with the system, group delay, timbre (which some are sensitive to), and you might check some SPL readings to see what average level the system is at to get an idea. 92dB is about a very comfortable listening level for music in my room where as this used to be much higher before I could hear detail. If you have a complete series of a television show on disc I have found this works really well to become familiar with changes and in a much shorter time span.


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## hjones4841

About the only thing I am planning now is to try the R30 batts above the suspended ceiling and only a few of them at first to see if anything positive happens. I likely will try areas away from the corners since the corners are where 4 of the traps are now.

Over the Christmas holidays I took the acoustical tiles down and replaced them with 5/8" sheetrock tiles (for several reasons). I suppose I need to put the acoustical tiles back in to use the R30.

Bryan: Is there any benefit to using 703 or 705 instead of the acoustical tiles? Lots more money.... Also, I assume that I should get the faced R30 and put it paper side down, right?


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## bpape

Use the acoustical tiles and use standard R-30 insulation. No need to do 703 or 705

Bryan


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## fredk

> Be very careful with covering our panels. If you put anything on them, you're going to kill the membrane effect on the front. Also, even though it's not sealed behind, you can still get some 'tuning' based on the thickness of the slats and the space between them.


I hadn't considered the membranes. I guess that means you are getting some of the mids/highs reflected back already. Bryan, your comments about tuning are also most interesting. More stuff to file away for future consideration.


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## bpape

In general, once you get the distance behind a broadband absorber more than the thickness of the absorber, you start getting a little 'hump' in the absorption based on the relationship of that distance (front of panel to wall behind) and the 1/4 wavelength of the frequency where you'll get the hump.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

Bryan: In planning for doing the ceiling around the edges of the room, is L/R symmetry important? I am guessing not since they would be somewhat distant from the speakers, except for perhaps the side surrounds. I may pick up some R30 this weekend and get a start.


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## bpape

I'd maintain as much symmetry as possible. We don't want to change boundary response from one speaker to the next.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

An update on a change and a change in plans...

I hung the fifth Monster trap that was on the floor in front of the fireplace from the ceiling in front of the fireplace. I brought the top of the trap out into the room a little and then tied the bottom of the trap to the fireplace - forming an angle to the ceiling. I then stuffed a R30 batt behind it and also behind each of the front traps. I will have to form a support for the R30 in the back corners due to the horizontal mounting of the traps at the ceiling. I have not made any measurements yet to see what differences all this made.

Going up and down the ladder to hang the fifth trap convinced me that my worn out knees are not up to reworking the ceiling, so no R30 will be going up there. I had "acoustical" tile in the suspended ceiling for many years, but always despised it. Seems that one of the tiles broke every time I took one out to add or change a cable to the projector, speakers or the security system. Plus, it "rained" tile dust everytime I took one down.

Several years ago to alleviate rattles in the ceiling, I cut 5/8" sheetrock pieces the same size of the tiles and laid them on top. I added extra grid support wires from the floor joists above to support the extra weight. The sheetrock was also supposed to help prevent bass from going into the room above. I suppose that extra weight was one reason for the flimsy tiles breaking when I moved them.

When I upgraded the projector right before Christmas, it was obvious that the white ceiling had to be black. I priced black ceiling tiles (did not like the look of the white ones painted) and decided just to take the white ones down, paint the sheetrock pieces black and put them in place of the tiles. I also painted the grid black. As expected, the whole background light level of the room dropped dramatically, which was the goal due to the high contrast ratio of the new projector.

Anyway, to treat the ceiling with R30 would mean either building frames with cloth coverings to support it, or buying new ceiling tiles. Plus I suppose I would need to either treat the whole room perimiter or move the R30 around to find the sweet spots. I really don't think my knees can stand that. 

After pricing R30 and the ceiling tiles yesterday, plus cloth or paint to turn them black, I was above the price of two more Monster traps. So, I just placed an order for two more Monsters. I plan to use them on the stands that I bought for the first two and move them around, mainly in the back of the room, to find the best spot (although from the first tests, centered in front of the fireplace is a good place to start.)

I looked around the front of the room to see if I could fit TriTraps on the floor. No can do without putting one very close to the front K'horn (due to door and equipment rack location), which did not work well when I put the Monster there. The TriTrap would not fit over the door or above the equipment rack on the left side wall. If they are going in the back of the room, they might as well be Monsters.

So, this will likely be the last trapping that I put in the room - can't really find more space with the other stuff in the room while maintaining some degree of symmetry. I really did not think I would be satisfied without trying two more Monsters anyway. So, I will get what benefit I get and will be happy. Even if it is only a small improvement, I know that I have made a huge overall improvement in the way the system sounds.

Now, to put the rest of the R30 in the attic...


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## thewire

Yep filling those ceilings hurt. I have been limping on one leg for the past few days since accessing a very small area of the ceiling to get some extra insulation for the back wall. The last time I did a ceiling insulation measurement and install I think that it took me at least a good 14 hours to complete, not counting the time it takes to clean up the mess also. If you ever have the free time/energy to fill the area Quiet Batt works rather well also and doesn't require much support to the tiles. It has a funny taste to it however.


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## hjones4841

Bryan: I started the "I Remember" nostalgia thread in the General Discussion area.


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## hjones4841

thewire:

OT, but tell me about Lake Ozarks. Is it a summer vacation? Wife is always looking for somewhere to visit.


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## thewire

hjones4841 said:


> thewire:
> 
> OT, but tell me about Lake Ozarks. Is it a summer vacation? Wife is always looking for somewhere to visit.


Yes most of the population does not live here, only have summer homes, resorts, camps, per say. There are plenty of famous people with getaways down here. Brad Pitt, John Goodman, it's difficult to keep track of there are so many, and it isn't something you hear about on ET. I don't think that I have seen any celebs athough I did see a helicopter before that I think was someone famous. They hold alot of bass pro fishing tournaments here, and the have boat races every year that can be seen on television. There are many number of events down here, but people mostly come to tour Bridal Cave (as seen in "Deep Impact"), visit the ruins of the castle, go hopping from restaurant to restaurant on the water etc.


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## hjones4841

Oh me... she has the MO AAA book out looking at your area:wits-end:

We already have a driving trip to Colorado planned for June. Shortest route is via I-70.


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## hjones4841

I ran a new waterfall for the changes that I made over the past couple of days: moving one of the 42" Monster traps from the floor in front of the fireplace to the ceiling above the fireplace. Also, I put a R30 batt behind each of the rear Monsters (had to remove the batt behind the center rear to finish the attic insulation addition). 

Looks like I spread out ringing in the lowest bass and gained a little more effective absorption above that. FR plot shows several db up around 20, so that may be the cause of the increased ringing amplitude in this plot. Need to do some smoothing with the BFD. 

It will be interesting to see what the last 2 Monsters will do.


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## jdeanmc

hey,
let me know when the trips planned!i can be in b'ham in 45 mins.assuming you wouldnt mind an "obsessive"ht moron that you've never met tagging along with you and your wife for a several week vacation:rofl:
p.s. i do have a pretty hearty appetite!


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## hjones4841

jdeanmc said:


> hey,
> let me know when the trips planned!i can be in b'ham in 45 mins.assuming you wouldnt mind an "obsessive"ht moron that you've never met tagging along with you and your wife for a several week vacation:rofl:


Hey, you know what? We could visit thewire and play a trick on him. You keep him busy outside and I will sneak into his HT and move all his traps around:jump::yes::yes::yes:


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## thewire

hjones4841 said:


> Hey, you know what? We could visit thewire and play a trick on him. You keep him busy outside and I will sneak into his HT and move all his traps around:jump::yes::yes::yes:












:joke:


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## hjones4841

Veee hafff our vaaays:bigsmile:


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## jdeanmc

hjones4841 said:


> Hey, you know what? We could visit thewire and play a trick on him. You keep him busy outside and I will sneak into his HT and move all his traps around:jump::yes::yes::yes:


Or ill bring our cats and in 10 mins he'll have wall to wall cat hair carpet:gulp:


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## hjones4841

Monster traps #6&7 went into the room last night. I only had time to make one quick measurement. Seems that the mode around 27Hz is broader than before. I plan to run new waterfalls tomorrow with and without these two traps and will post them.

Subjectively, when the wife walked into the room last night, I was playing a Michael McDonald concert DVD. I remarked that the system sounded more natural than ever before. She agreed:unbelievable::bigsmile::yes:


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## hjones4841

Happy to report that Monster traps #6&7 make a measureable improvement. The green overlay is for 5 traps with the base color being all 7 with the latest two in front of the fireplace, center back wall about a foot in front of the wall. Out further seemed to not be as effective. BFD in ON, sub only, 80Hz crossover.


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## thewire

Are these measurements with the subsonic filter on or off?


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## hjones4841

The only subsonic filter in the system is the one built in the Velodyne sub. It has two settings: 15Hz and 35Hz - it is in the 15Hz position. If you are wondering about the performance below 30Hz, this sub has always had strong output below 20. I have noticed an increase in measured and perceived output below 30 as I added traps. 

As stated before, the system has never sounded as grand as it does now. Wish I had put the traps in long ago. Anyone who is on the fence about trapping - do it.

With all that absorption on the rear wall (5 traps) walking back there is psuedo-anechoic. But, I don't have any seats back there, so no problem. I wonder what this has done to the bass FR of the back K'horns - I may have too much absorption in the 100-200Hz range. Should not be that big of a problem for the back surrounds, tho.

I paid particular attention to dialog during last night's viewing. While it is extremely clean and pinpoint focused, it is quite different from what I had before. It almost sounds thin. I suppose I am hearing the lack of "chestiness" that was in the system before.

I was kinda puzzled about how the last two traps performed as I moved them away from the back wall. I expected to see more absorption in the lowest octave as I moved them out. I think I know what is happening. The traps are on stands, sitting on the fireplace hearth. The tops of the traps are pushed against the fireplace mantle, forming a small corner. This may be the reason they work better there. 

This morning I am going to adjust the position of the center ceiling trap to bring it down to the top of the last two. This will provide an effective trap area of about 72" x 48."

I need to post a couple of pictures so you can see what this all looks like.


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## bpape

Actually, once you get more than the thickness of the absorption away from the wall, you can actually get more of a peaky filtering effect based on the wavelength of the frequency

Bryan


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## hjones4841

Here are photos of the back of the room (trap city!) and one of the front mains with a 42" custom Monster mounted vertically.

I measured FR of one of the back K'horns - steep, narrow dip at about 60Hz. Likely a room mode, although that is where the Monster trap effectiveness peaks per the lab test on GIK's website. Not really a problem with crossover set at 80Hz.


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## thewire

Very Nice. :T Your speakers make those Monster Traps look smaller in the photos though. :yes:


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## hjones4841

Thanks. I have been a big Klipsch fan since the late 1960s. Some folks like them, some don't, claiming "horn sound."


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## fredk

The first audiophile speaker I hear was a big pair of Klipsch 'crates' Could have been the K'horn???

The year was 1978, the album, Dark Side of the Moon. My buddy put me in the sweet spot, told me to close my eyes and spun up the album. WOW!! It was like the band was in front of me.

Speaker technology has come a long way since those days. For not much more than the cost of the Advents I owned back then (for the fronts anyway) I have that same WOW reaction to my current system.


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## hjones4841

The K'horns have been in continuous production for 60 years, so that could have been what you heard. I was first introduced to them by a dealer in Starkville, MS in the late 1960s when I was in college. I spent many an afternoon at his house listening to mainly classical music (Copeland's Rodeo was a favorite). He would on occasion allow non-classical music (his wife liked Cat Stevens as I recall.) The first pair (the ones in the rear) were purchased from him in 1978. The front pair along with the Belle center were purchased from Hoopers in Birmingham in 1998.


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## hjones4841

As stated in another thread, I have decided to treat the suspended ceiling after all. Yesterday I picked up enough ceiling tiles for about half the room (all I could haul) and some heavy brown paper. Black burlap is on order from Joann's on-line store - supposed to be here Friday or Saturday.

The plan is as follows: "face" the ceiling tiles with the brown paper to prevent mid and high freq. absorption. Then, cover the paper with the black burlap. R30 goes on top of the tiles when put into the grid. As of now, I plan to do the whole ceiling (about 35 tiles) this way, but will start at the front of the room since the rear of the room has the most absorption now.

I put the paper on several of the ceiling tiles today. Lessons for others that decide to do this: first, it is nearly impossible to get all the bubbles out from under the paper; I hope that when I stretch the fabric across the tile the paper will be flatter. Second, the Duro spray adhesive does not work as well for this task as the mid level 3M. Third, the adhesive sticks better to the back side of the ceiling tiles. For me it did not matter which side the paper was on since they will be covered with cloth anyway. I have a large quantity of high strength pre-mixed wallpaper adhesive that I may try on the next batch instead of the spray stuff.

I will post graphs as I progress with this so we can compare what difference ceiling treatments make.


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## thewire

Your front speakers are from the year I graduated and the rear speakers you have had since the year I was born. That is quite a coiencedence. Look forward to seeing the new results while you are treating the ceiling.


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## hjones4841

Must be nice to be young! Our company hired a younger engineer a couple of years ago. He was 36 at the time. I told him that when I started work for this company, he was in diapers. Sad, really sad.

A funny happened about that same timeframe. I was in Best Buy and was walking up to the cashier with a $15 dollar component cable. A salesguy "accosted" me telling me of all the virtues of Monster Cables (at many times the price, of course.) I explained that I am a registered electrical engineer, certainly knew how cables are constructed and how they work, and had been working with audio gear since before he was born. He said "that just can't be." I said, funny, you don't look like you are 45:heehee:


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## thewire

One thing that I would do to find where to place insulation above the tiles was to measure what it was like in an area without a tile. That would help give me an idea how much I needed to put into the area. One thing I would recommend also is that when you place it up there besides a mask I would wear some protection around your ears so the stuff does not get in there because the wax will build up and you may need to clean them out some. It's just something to consider and I'm not sure that is neccessary or not but it might help.


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## hjones4841

The black burlap from Joann's came in today. The good news is that it did not cost much. The bad news is that it looks like it did not cost much. As I kinda suspected, the brown paper shows thru the burlap. 

So, I seem to have two options for plan B: paint the brown paper (can't see how that work out well, what with the bubbles in it I already have) or go back to the black posterboard idea. I think the posterboard with the wallpaper glue will be the next thing I try. Local Target had plenty of the black posterboard earlier this week and it is cheap enough. That under the burlap should look OK.

thewire: I have worked enough with fiberglass insulation over the years to know the precautions. Not that I always take them:bigsmile:


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## hjones4841

Status update on the ceiling treatments. I took a day off today (crazy Alabama weather - 3 inches of snow Sunday, 70 degrees today:unbelievable and reworked the front 4 rows of ceiilng tiles - to about 8 feet back from the screen/sub wall. Technique used was black posterboard over the acoustic tiles, then the black burlap wrapped around the tiles. 

I used 3M spray adhesive to attach the posterboard to the tiles and for securing the burlap to the posterboard. I wrapped the burlap around the edges of the tiles, then used spray adhesive and staples to secure the fabric to the backs of the tiles. Then R30 on top of the tiles after they were put into the grid.

I have not made measurements yet or done any critical listening, but I am well pleased with the appearance - much nicer looking than the painted sheetrock "tiles." The imperfections in the cheap burlap are not that noticeable, although I certainly would not use it for DIY traps or other work that would be more visable.

I tried painting the brown paper that I had put on one of the tiles last weekend - disaster, pucker city:unbelievable: 

I doubt that I will do any more ceiling work until next weekend. More later with plots.


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## hjones4841

I made a couple of measurements to see what difference the first part of the ceiling treatment made. First, the sub FR with the same BFD EQ settings as before. Not much change.


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## hjones4841

Here is the corresponding waterfall for these changes (medium green) plus the one from Feb 20th (the one with the overlays) without the ceiling treatment. Surprising improvement across a much wider freq range than expected, especially in the 20-40 Hz range. The improvement in the 40-80Hz range was expected, but not that at the lowest freqs. Based on this, the ceiling treatment is worth continuing.

Subjectively in last night's viewing there was less audible difference than the plots suggest. It could have been the program material we chose.


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## thewire

hjones4841 said:


> Subjectively in last night's viewing there was less audible difference than the plots suggest. It could have been the program material we chose.


These are some examples of some scenes and an intro where I hear a difference in my HT that treating the ceiling has helped. 









*Master And Commander 1:09:18*









*Master And Commander 1:11:57*









*Star Wars Episode2 50:26*









*Star Wars Episode3 20:42*









*Saving Private Ryan 2:33:58*









*Indiana Jones and the Kingdom Of The Crsytal Scull 21:36*









*20th Century Fox Intro*


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## hjones4841

Yeah, I threw more at it last night and there is definately an improvement in bass transient response. I had "Celtic Woman" DVD on and the kettle drum really had a lot of snap. I hope to do more rows next weekend, although there is another house repair that I also need to do.

Did you get your new projector up and running?


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## thewire

hjones4841 said:


> Yeah, I threw more at it last night and there is definately an improvement in bass transient response. I had "Celtic Woman" DVD on and the kettle drum really had a lot of snap. I hope to do more rows next weekend, although there is another house repair that I also need to do.
> 
> Did you get your new projector up and running?


I have got the mount, the subsonic filter, and the projector shipped yesterday. I am building the screen wall today.


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## hjones4841

You know, I was just wondering if the sheetrock panels in the grid themselves are rattling at low bass freqs. and, therefore, are emulating additional time decay in the room. Looking at the two waterfalls above, it is hard to believe that the R30 itself is making that much difference (although there is 88 sq. feet of it in the room now.)

By the way, with the fabric wrapped around the ceilng tiles the fit into the grid is tighter, so hopefully I will have fewer rattles when I am done.


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## thewire

hjones4841 said:


> You know, I was just wondering if the sheetrock panels in the grid themselves are rattling at low bass freqs. and, therefore, are emulating additional time decay in the room. Looking at the two waterfalls above, it is hard to believe that the R30 itself is making that much difference (although there is 88 sq. feet of it in the room now.)
> 
> By the way, with the fabric wrapped around the ceilng tiles the fit into the grid is tighter, so hopefully I will have fewer rattles when I am done.


It's difficult to know just how much a rattle is a problem when it might be down so far in the range of human hearing. If I can find one I stand under it and try and fix it until it is gone. That is why if I am checking for a problem rattle I fixed I go back to the scene and listen to it on repeat. If it doesn't sound the same each time there is a rattle, which sounds more like a distortion than a rattle. There is a certain point where it takes a louder subwoofer signal regardless if mains or on or not that it is masked out. There is also the higher frequencies in the subwoofer which might cause one so I check with the mains also. The grid that holds my tiles are an interlocking direct ceiling mount system using PVC. When I press on it the two peices go in and out in areas like it is sagging. I'm not sure if it would make any difference to a rattle. The rattles I find are usually tiles that are not sitting on a peice of the shorter grid laying between the other grid after I have been working in the ceiling. It doesn't ever seem to be right the first time I put them in.


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## bpape

I absolutely think that the R30 is really making that much difference. That's a lot of square footage with an effective 12" thickness. 

Bryan


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## hjones4841

bpape said:


> That's a lot of square footage with an effective 12" thickness.


R30 is labeled as 9-1/2". Does "effective" mean acoustically? Glad it is not 12" - it is a snug fit for me as it is.

5 more tiles and 40 more sq. ft. of R30 put up this afternoon. This puts me about half way into the room from the front. No measurements for today's additions; I likely will wait until I put up more.

Bryan: Should I really expect much from putting the R30 above the tiles where the Monster traps are in the back? Reason I ask is that it will take part of a fourth package of R30 to do them. I guess I will go ahead - I suppose I could stuff the remaining R30 behind the Monsters that don't have it now.


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## bpape

My mistake. Not sure why I was thinking 12". 

You can probably skip the rear as you already have plenty of bass control in the rear of the room.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

I just played a few bass heavy scenes from Iron Man. BIG WIDE GRIN! Uncanny bass transient response now, and I am still not thru with the room treatments. I wish someone had hit me up side the head years ago to get me to put traps in.

Also, I have been playing around a little bit with the Aura Bass Shaker Pro from Parts Express. Verdict: fun if used in moderation. It is very easy to get a most unnatural feeling. But, with the level set properly there is a nice kick in the bottom when bombs go off, etc. My wife hates it, but I may use it to wake her up during movies (swift kick in the ...:bigsmile I really bought them to use with new Berklines on order from Roman, but decided to start playing around with them on the old chairs.


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## hjones4841

For Blu Ray playback, I use the analog outputs from my Panny BD-55 into a 7.1 analog input on the Denon 5805 receiver. This allows DTS-MA and Dolby HD playback via the player's decoding, since the Denon does not process the newer codecs. I still get bass management and distance correction by the receiver using this connection (DSP switched ON on the Denon for the analog ins.) When making REW measurements, I disconnect the sub cable from the back of the Panny and patch in the output of the sound card. 

As I was powering the system down last night, I made a startling discovery. After my measurements on Saturday, I had failed to plug the sub cable back into the Panny. So, the bass I heard on Iron Man was coming only from the K'horns:unbelievable:. (I must have left the crossover on them set at 40Hz from Saturday's tests). That certainly explains the superb bass transient response that I heard, but does not explain the bass extension, since the K'horn bass horn's cutoff is 35Hz. I obviously am still getting significant output below that in my room now.

I did not notice that the sub was not working after playing the Blu Ray disc, since the rest of the evening's watching was from the DVR, which has a digital connection to the Denon.

Wow, I must be getting far more benefit from the ceiling trapping than I thought.


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## thewire

I guess then without a weight to the soundfield then the transient response of the other speakers will then be more audible because these sounds that are usually 6dB - 10dB or more down in response from the subwoofer will be more audible than felt. Dependent on your rooms treatment it may be right around the reflections that are also 10dB down from the fundamental sounds, or also 15dB down also sometimes depending on the room. Anyone feel free to correct me on this.


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## thewire

Did you make more progress with the ceiling? Are they going in smoothly?


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## hjones4841

I haven't done any more since Sunday afternoon. I plan to pick up the rest of the tiles this afternoon. It is supposed to be a rainy weekend, so I should be able to get most of the rest of the work done.

Transient response from the sub is really getting good now. I especially noticed it on the bass drum during American Idol last night. The good thing about using the posterboard is that I am not noticing a drop in mids and highs.


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## hjones4841

I forgot to answer your question about how the installation is going. With the fabric wrapped around the tiles, it is a tight fit into the grid. So much so that on most of them I have to bump them from the top to get them to go in - makes me nervous about breaking them but so far so good. When I ran the sweep Saturday I still had a couple of rattles, but I did not take the time to figure out where they were coming from.

I will run out of burlap by the weekend and will order a few more yards from Joanns'. I knew up front that the one bolt would not be enough, plus I have had to cut out a couple of really bad spots. I won't buy another bolt this time, but rather only order a little more than needed to finish.

I haven't decided if I will extend the R30 fully to the back of the room, since that is where 5 of the Monster traps are. I will run a waterfall after this weekend's work and see where I am. If I decide to leave a few of the sheetrock "tiles" in, I can cover them with burlap so that everything matches.

Thanks for your interest in my project - it truly has been a learning experience for me.


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## hjones4841

Bryan: One thing that I have noticed as I add more trapping is that rumbling LFE sound effects seem to have lese "rumble." I know that the SPL and FR are there and transient response is much better now. I suppose what I was hearing before was ringing, right?


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## bpape

To a point - yes. You're getting that and also some acoustic doubling like you'd get when a woofer starts to motorboat. You've put in a lot of bass control in the room. You might want to recheck your level balance between mains and subs.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

More progress made this weekend. 176 sq. ft. of ceiling treated now; about the front 2/3 of the room is done. I could have finished the whole thing today, but ran out of burlap - more on the way.

Now for the results. The lighter green waterfall is from when I had 48 sq. ft. done (front four rows of tiles). The darker green waterfall is from today. Significant difference in decay time. I am finally seeing results in the 30-40 Hz range. No significant change in sub FR.

I probably will go ahead and do the rest of the room, even tho I have a lot of absorption in the rear already with the Monsters. I have the ceiling tiles, the posterboard and the R30. The extra fabric should be in time to finish next weekend.


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## hjones4841

Forgot to mention that the overall room noise floor has gone down noticeably - now reading 40-41 db after calibrating against my RS meter at 75 db, and that is with hard drives in 3 DVRs running about 6 feet from the mic. Wish that I had measured it before the treatments for comparison.


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## hjones4841

Here is the spectral plot from today.


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## hjones4841

Bryan: How close do subs have to physically be in order to be co-located? I assume side-by-side, right?

As mentioned earlier, the single Velodyne is sufficient for most of the time, but there are times when at "agressive" volumes, it power-compresses/limits - it simply cannot keep up with the K-horns. I have often thought about adding a second one, but with Velo prices these days I am not sure that is an option unless I find a good used one. I am leary of buying another brand - concern is that the second one might audibly distort; the Velo is one of their servo designs. 

As I recall, adding a second one gives me 6 db - or is it 3?.

Another option is to build an IB. I have one location in the front wall that is mirror to where the Velo is now that could vent into the garage. Another location is on one of the rear side walls about 6 feet from the rear - it would vent into a 10x12 room. Not sure I am physically up to all that work, tho.

I have never heard an IB. Others claim vast superiority to box subs. Is that based on sheer output, extension, or both?


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## bpape

To be truly co-located, you actually stack them vertically. You may find that if you're willing to do the work, having 2 subs in different locations can help with frequency response issues quite a bit.

If you want to do another sub with some headroom, I'd suggest looking at the HSU Research VTF-III. It's on sale right now and is an excellent performer. I don't think you'll have any compression issues with it at all.

IB's can have excellent performance, reach deep, and be very tight and fast. They just take a LOT of space to do right. 

Bryan


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## hjones4841

Thanks for the advice, Bryan. I am familiar with Hsu products, but have only purchased their car subwoofer. 

My concern about buying a lower priced sub comes from an experience with a $500 Definitive sub that I tried several years back - it did not mate well at all with the Velodyne and emitted more port chuffing than anything else. I moved it up to the living room system where it worked OK until the amp failed.


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## bpape

There's a money back guarantee on the HSU stuff I believe. 

Not to slam anything, but the HSU is leagues better than the Definitive. Any time someone tries to get output and deep bass extension out of a too small box, they do it with lots of cheap power and lots of built in EQ in the circuitry. That's a recipe for distortion IMO.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

Bryan: Any downsides to sonotube subwoofers? Looks like an easy way to come up with a DIY enclosure. I have two of the 12" Hsu car subs that I am not using (wife kept complaining about the boxes in the trunks of both cars) - haven't modeled them yet to see if they will provide enough output to make it worthwhile. Always could jump up to a good 18 incher.

How do folks cut the round end plates proplerly? I have one of the Jasper circle cutters that I used when DIY'ing the car sub boxes, but it will leave a hole in the middle at the pivot point - guess I could just fill that.


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## bpape

Jasper will work fine. 

I'm personally not a big fan of the sonotube stuff. It's certainly cheap and easy - but it's hardly non-resonant or IMO stiff enough to form a proper enclosure. Lots of people use them and some guys have had great results - I guess I'm just old school....

Bryan


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## hjones4841

I took a day off and finished the ceiling treatments - about 220 sq. ft. done now, what with cutouts for can lights, HVAC outlets and projector cables. Plus, I left one tile behind the projector with no R30 - gave up trying to suspend it while putting the tile in. Only casualty is a zone on the security system which I screwed up wiring the smoke detector back up.

Now for the results. FR is of sub only with mic in the usual chair. BFD is on, with a couple db tweaks of the filters to even out the 20-30Hz range. Purple waterfall is of the final result; the one with the overlay is the old, pre-ceiling treatment one, presented again to show what the ceiling treatment accomplished. The spectral is today's with all the ceiling work done.

I haven't listened to anything yet - will report back tomorrow of any audible improvements of today's work.


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## hjones4841

So, Bryan, this is all of the work on trapping that I intend to do. How do you think that it turned out? 

Again, thanks to you for all your help and advice and to GIK for the great service.


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## bpape

I think you've done a great job and the measurements show it. 20-30Hz is tough to deal with but it's pretty good. The response is very good for real, in-room measurements. +/-3 from below 20 to 75Hz is a great accomplishment. As with anything, the proof is in the listening since that's what it's all about.

Bryan


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## CharlieU

bpape said:


> Tri Traps up high will be fine. Below, I wouldn't recommend.
> 
> 
> Bryan


Sorry to drag everything back to the 2nd post in this thread, but this statement has me wondering.

I have my Tri Traps sitting on the floor. My reasoning was that since when I'm sitting, my head is within the height of the Tri Trap. My room slopes up to a second story front to back and I have panels mounted high to deal with echo, but my 244's and Tri Traps are concentrated down low. Should I be raising my bass traps?


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## hjones4841

If I remember correctly, Bryan's recommendation was specific to the design of the Klipschorns that I am using. They are a corner speaker with a bass horn design in which the bass exits the rear sides (see the black grille cloth on the side of the photo in my avatar). The concern was that traps near the output of the bass horn, which they would be for my case if mounted on the floor in the front of the room, would absorb near field speaker output and cause frequency response errors.

In other cases putting the tri-traps on the floor is fine. In fact, that is the way they are designed and the picturs on GIK's website show them on the floor.


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## CharlieU

hjones4841 said:


> If I remember correctly, Bryan's recommendation was specific to the design of the Klipschorns that I am using. They are a corner speaker with a bass horn design in which the bass exits the rear sides (see the black grille cloth on the side of the photo in my avatar). The concern was that traps near the output of the bass horn, which they would be for my case if mounted on the floor in the front of the room, would absorb near field speaker output and cause frequency response errors.
> 
> In other cases putting the tri-traps on the floor is fine. In fact, that is the way they are designed and the picturs on GIK's website show them on the floor.


I kind of caught that, but didn't think it through. I'm using SVS cylinders so I'm looking at a 360 degree radiation pattern which puts me in a completely different situation than you. Thanks for the wake-up.


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## bpape

Even without corner loaded bass, sometimes Tri Traps along the wall/floor junction are a good solution. It's especially useful when you have obstructions/restrictions on the front wall and front corners but still need to deal with boundary issues.

Bryan


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## hjones4841

Bryan: I am still thinking about adding a second sub. I would prefer to put it on the front (screen) wall. The FR plots indicate that the location of the Velodyne on the front wall is fine. 

Since the room treatments are symmetrical (and the room itself, except for a door on the left side) is there any reason not to expect that a mirror image location for the second sub would be a good spot, at least for the first try?


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## bpape

It may work, it may not. If it were me, I'd mirror it on the back wall most likely. In the front, you'll not only get the interaction with the boundaries that you're getting now, but you'll also have interaction with each other. Hard to say what that will be.

Bryan


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## Xboxmastr14

I would bow down to your system. It's what a young guy like me dreams of!

nate


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## hjones4841

Thanks, Nate. Many years in the making, but I am out of the market for speakers:bigsmile: Welllll, maybe another sub...:yay:


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## Xboxmastr14

Yeah man. Even though I've never actually heard any Klipsch pairs perform, I have always drooled over Paul's Klipschhorn as well as those massive Cornwalls! Someday I'll nab a pair; someday.


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