# Line Array for HT



## perceval

I am juggling between concepts right now.

I have always been interested in Line Arrays... I personally think they look cool, but I have zero experience with them.

I've been researching for full range drivers, and I found this 4", made locally, and available at the reasonable price of $18 a unit. This way, I wouldn't have to design a crossover, which would be another thing to learn! Unless I need to add some tweeters to the mix.

I'm trying to come up with design, but I need to understand how line arrays work. I downloaded Jim Griffin white paper on LA, but I need time to understand the concepts... 

Still don't know if I should go with an open baffle (easy construction), or closed back (more work!).

This is the driver I found. Anyone could provide some feedback regarding this unit? I'm thinking of using 8 of them per tower.


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## fusseli

It sounds doable. Have you seen this project at PE? http://www.parts-express.com/project-gallery-speaker-project-kuze3201-line-array


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## perceval

Thanks for the read!

A little different, since they are using 2" drivers ... and a lot more! 
But interesting to read nevertheless.

My big question I guess is: Am I overthinking it?

In my quest to come up with something that is not a beast, but gives out a nice sound field, am I going overboard with 8 drivers per column ... and maybe one or 2 would do the same? 

I have quite a big room, so, the multiple smaller drivers looked like it may fill that space better than a 2-way with a single 8" or 10" woofer with tweeter. That would also bring in the crossover design, in which I have zero experience. The array is also more spouse friendly than a big ported box.

Rainy season will be over in about a month, so I still have a little time to decide what I want to do exactly.... but I am excited at the idea of starting to build soon!


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## Andre

I have also liked the idea of line array's. In my opinion in a large room for 2ch use they would be able to produce a much larger sound stage, and look fantastic to boot. However they can be complicated to build so it becomes a labor of love. For home theater, I believe the advent of the front height and front width speakers being employed in 9.2 and 11.2 channel surround systems will give as good or better staging.


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## perceval

Hmmm...

How complicated? I thought since there were no crossovers, it would make my life easier. But looking at the project linked to PE, I just don't understand how they figured the wiring pattern....

I've had success at school, but Electricity 101 has never been easy for me. You should see how long it takes me to wire up a 3-way switch!

Also, it would be impossible due to room restrictions and design to have a 9 or 11 speaker setup. Hence the idea of the line array.


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## Jstslamd

Just out of curiosity have you seen the zaph za5.5 mtmmm kits from madisound ? It looks like it would kind of be up your alley and even better all of the hard work Of cover building is already done for you. Here's a link to the kit check it out. Hope this is of some help. 

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2.5-way-speaker-kits/zaph|audio-za5.5-tall-tower-2.5-way-pair/


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## perceval

That looks nice, 5.5" ... hmmm... wonder if that size would pass the spouse approval criteria! 

I have been looking at shipping costs for drivers... not cheap!
The import fees are not too bad, but shipping drivers is really expensive!

I saw the Celestion build using 3". I would rather build something narrower than that, but maybe I could go down from 4" to 3" drivers and try to reduce the combing effect. 4" drivers places them farther apart.

http://celestion.com/speakerworld/patech/2/82/Build_Monitor_Speakers_With_AN3510_Full_Range_Drivers/

I found another local made full range driver at 3".
Some specs:


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## Jstslamd

Also check out the fusion 4 on the diysound.com site. Seems to be a nice little build. May also be good and is much smaller than the za5.5.


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## Jstslamd

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion4-kit.html

Here's s link


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## Architect7

I absolutely love my arrays for both music and movies (see my avatar/signature). Huge sound stage and monstrous dynamics, plus incredible efficiency. Sound as good at low volume as they do cranked.

The big questions are, what is your budget, what are your non-negotiables vs. what corners can be cut and are you an experienced wood worker?


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## Mike Edwards

line arrays can be easier in some ways. no need for a crossover, but getting them just right with the wiring and choosing the right drivers is really the clincher


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## perceval

Those Lambda are gorgeous!

Unfortunately, my space wouldn't allow for such a beast... 
Also, I guess my budget is lower than that. I have too many hobbies... drumming, surfing, music, motorcycle, ... all of which are too expensive! ha ha!

Nevertheless, I am opened to suggestions, and my wood working skills are not bad. I can tackle pretty much anything ... I've done a surfboard and some furniture out of wood.


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## perceval

Just got a laconic reply from Erich at DIYsoundgroup.
Didn't seem he wants to ship to me, as it would at least double the cost of the kit.

Been reading so much... my head is spinning.
Now I see that my line "array" is better named as line "source", since I do not get to 70% of the height in my room.

I am trying to get something going with six(6) 4" woofers (full range) and seeing if I need to add a set of tweeters later. I've been looking at ribbons (great for listening position, not so when moving around) and CD with horns for more projection and dispersion.


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## Jstslamd

Where exactly do you live ?


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## perceval

Taiwan!

A bit off the usual trade routes!

I'm on the East coast, I have the mountains in my backyard, and the Pacific in front. Not too shabby. 

But not too convenient when it comes to asking people to ship me some stuff!


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## Architect7

perceval said:


> I've been looking at ribbons (great for listening position, not so when moving around) and CD with horns for more projection and dispersion.


A line source with multiple ribbons would solve the vertical dispersion issue. Horizontal dispersion is very good, almost flat to 20khz+ at 45 degrees off-axis for many models on the market. I believe Beston is located close to you, they are a very good sounding and lower cost ribbon option with a number of options for specific applications. Jim Griffin discusses the use of ribbons as an optimal driver for line source/line array because the narrow vertical dispersion lends itself to better blending between ribbons and less unwanted interaction between ribbons vs. domes (though foam, etc. could be used to isolate domes from each other but this is not an exact science and would require extensive testing especially with untested domes):

http://www.ribbonspeaker.com.tw/



perceval said:


> Those Lambda are gorgeous!


Just saw this comment, thank you! Al Wooley in British Columbia does GREAT work and his crossover skills are incredible. Here is the center he is building for me: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/css/249510-custom-apex-c-wavecor-mid-ldw7-woofers.html


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## perceval

Thanks!

I actually found Beston yesterday and I was looking at their products.
Nice to read they are a good company and I can get them easily.

They have a dome shaped ribbon. Don't know much about that though.

I've been trying to come up with some designs last night. My mind is just whirling with stuff !


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## perceval

Architect7 said:


> Just saw this comment, thank you! Al Wooley in British Columbia does GREAT work and his crossover skills are incredible. Here is the center he is building for me: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/css/249510-custom-apex-c-wavecor-mid-ldw7-woofers.html


Watching movies with those line arrays and that center must be some experience! I'm sure you have something just as amazing for rears!











I've been running things in my mind, and coming up with simple drawings, because I think better when I see it.

I'm starting with a simple line of 6 woofers ... can I make it work with 6 for the wiring? I'd be 2-2-2, right? so no power distribution going that way, they all get the same... if I understood wiring correctly.

To that, I could either add a simple box on top with a horn / compression driver mounted inside, basic crossover design as the woofer would be wired separately and directly.

Or, install the horn in the column.

Finally, a couple of ribbons on the side, since vertical dispersion is limited, I may have enough with 2 and separating them a bit won't affect each other and keep combing at a minimum, if any.


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## perceval

Still coming up with stuff....


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## perceval

Also, I've been looking at the Beston ribbons.

They have the RT002A in 4,6 or 8 Ohms, at about $30 each, seems reasonable. Never heard them though.

They also have a round ribbon, the RT003C, and I was wondering the differences between the traditional mini horn design and the circular one. The website doesn't mention much, either in English or Chinese.


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## Architect7

I'd try reaching out to Beston directly, they are VERY helpful and eager to assist. I was conversing with them last year about dipolar tweeters and they gave me some great ideas including ways to modify the area behind the ribbon to lower frequency response.

I'd also ask around on http://techtalk.parts-express.com and http://www.diyaudio.com, lots of DIY line array/line source people on there who will probably have more input for you.

Regarding my rears, you are correct  These pictures are a little older but shows my rears in the 3rd frame. One Aurum Cantus G3si and four CSS WR125S mids per tower to match the fronts. They are a lot of fun!
http://imgur.com/a/ltbKO


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## RAW

perceval said:


> I am juggling between concepts right now.
> 
> I have always been interested in Line Arrays... I personally think they look cool, but I have zero experience with them.
> 
> I've been researching for full range drivers, and I found this 4", made locally, and available at the reasonable price of $18 a unit. This way, I wouldn't have to design a crossover, which would be another thing to learn! Unless I need to add some tweeters to the mix.
> 
> I'm trying to come up with design, but I need to understand how line arrays work. I downloaded Jim Griffin white paper on LA, but I need time to understand the concepts...
> 
> Still don't know if I should go with an open baffle (easy construction), or closed back (more work!).
> 
> This is the driver I found. Anyone could provide some feedback regarding this unit? I'm thinking of using 8 of them per tower.


OK see you got the BUG for a line array.
With your placement I would go away and stay away from a OB in any fashion.
Why well OB stands for open baffle which needs room.Small OB like my old OB2X or OB3X could be placed as close to the wall or surroundings as 4-5ft. Larger OB systems need more room for them to work without giving hash acoustic issues. OB means lots of room..

Now a line array I am not against them as I have designed several of the Omega, Omega Grand, Lambda and Lambda plus.Arrays take a lot of work to build cost when using a ribbon I mean try ribbon not a planner like a brand mentioned in other threads.

I would do a ARRAY which is simple drivers in a line with a tweeter in the middle. Now which tweeter to use.Use a SMALL ribbon tweeter for the best dispersion horizontally. Which in you room is the most important.Remember the longer the ribbon the more issue of vertical response issues. Stay with a short ribbon.
I did a design with GR which was called my RA8 Sealed MTM in the middle and the outer drivers were woofers



























Here is my flickr link to the build along with several others.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157624609781655/

This is the kind of speaker I think you would best fit into your room.

Al


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## perceval

RAW said:


> I would do a ARRAY which is simple drivers in a line with a tweeter in the middle. Now which tweeter to use.Use a SMALL ribbon tweeter for the best dispersion horizontally. Which in you room is the most important.Remember the longer the ribbon the more issue of vertical response issues. Stay with a short ribbon.
> 
> I did a design with GR which was called my RA8 Sealed MTM in the middle and the outer drivers were woofers
> 
> Here is my flickr link to the build along with several others.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157624609781655/
> 
> This is the kind of speaker I think you would best fit into your room.
> 
> Al


Thanks for the feedback Al,

I wish I could do a nice floorstanding like that one, I saw it before when I was researching stuff.
Unfortunately, the line will have to stand on each end of the shelf, so having 8 drivers and the tweeter in the middle will not work as it will be way over the ear level position when seated and listening to music of watching movies.

I have about 50cm (20") between the back wall and the back of the speakers... so I should forget about an OB? 

Hmmm... It's never easy to compromise. I would love to do a line array (or in my case more a line source) but I am wondering if I am looking in the wrong place for my needs.


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## RAW

Turn the ribbon walla.


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## perceval

Oh I am very interested in that one!

Is that only for a center channel or can it be standing?


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## RAW

No just rotate the tweeter 

Same as the RA8 just smaller.Sealed MTM in the middle with 2 outer woofers on each side.This can be made ported or sealed for this design.

Use your drivers and do something similar!


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## perceval

I see. You turned the ribbon tweeters so you can get more vertical coverage... but horizontal will be lacking a bit... better to toe in the speakers then.


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## RAW

Small Ribbon tweeters are best at horizontal dispersion.As the element in the ribbon is so narrow.

For this design the RA6 the same speaker can be used as mains or center just have to turn the ribbon on the mains.


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## RAW

perceval said:


> I see. You turned the ribbon tweeters so you can get more vertical coverage... but horizontal will be lacking a bit... better to toe in the speakers then.


Same HT2 speakers one used as a center with the ribbon turned.


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## NBPk402

RAW said:


> OK see you got the BUG for a line array.
> With your placement I would go away and stay away from a OB in any fashion.
> Why well OB stands for open baffle which needs room.Small OB like my old OB2X or OB3X could be placed as close to the wall or surroundings as 4-5ft. Larger OB systems need more room for them to work without giving hash acoustic issues. OB means lots of room..
> 
> Now a line array I am not against them as I have designed several of the Omega, Omega Grand, Lambda and Lambda plus.Arrays take a lot of work to build cost when using a ribbon I mean try ribbon not a planner like a brand mentioned in other threads.
> 
> I would do a ARRAY which is simple drivers in a line with a tweeter in the middle. Now which tweeter to use.Use a SMALL ribbon tweeter for the best dispersion horizontally. Which in you room is the most important.Remember the longer the ribbon the more issue of vertical response issues. Stay with a short ribbon.
> I did a design with GR which was called my RA8 Sealed MTM in the middle and the outer drivers were woofers
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> Here is my flickr link to the build along with several others.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157624609781655/
> 
> This is the kind of speaker I think you would best fit into your room.
> 
> Al


Beautiful speakers! Reminds me of the old Infinity IRS. :T


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## perceval

I thought I had it figured out... then seeing your HT2, center and mains... nope.

This is what I thought you meant in your first post.
What would happen if I turned the ribbon on the _*mains*_?

Like this:


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## RAW

Center is right the towers is wrong.For the tweeter orientation.Think of the ribbon as a narrow line , you want that line for the ribbon to be the same across the front running up and down not side to side.


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## RAW

What ever you are looking at go to as small as ribbon as possible or a tweeter like a 22mm.You need to get those drivers as close to each other as possible.


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## RAW

I did these called Spires several years ago.


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## perceval

Got it!

Thanks so much. I guess I will have to come up with a couple of crossovers now to separate the outside woofers to the middle ones, and the tweeters.

Also, I saw that Beston has a circular ribbon tweeter that is 20mm. I might ask them about it.

And as a last note, I really enjoy seeing all those pictures of the speakers you did. Thanks for all the eye candy!


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## RAW

Welcome .My choice any tweeter but the one you mentioned.
If you are stuck on using those planner diaphragm tweeters use as small as possible.
http://www.parts-express.com/beston-rt001a-ribbon-tweeter--277-110 

If you want a planner tweeter go to a NEO 3 but I would not design anything with the ones you are looking at.Well OK maybe a back yard system!

http://www.parts-express.com/bohlender-graebener-neo3w-planar-tweeter-w-back-cup--264-730

OR
http://www.parts-express.com/aurum-cantus-apr21-ribbon-tweeter--276-436

http://www.parts-express.com/fountek-neocd10-ribbon-tweeter--296-701

http://www.parts-express.com/hivi-rt2c-a-planar-isodynamic-tweeter--297-406

If you do not want to use a ribbon tweeter a REAL ribbon then I recommend 
The NEO 3 above or this below. 
Those other cheap tweeters you mentioned well I measured them then threw them in the garbage. That was how long they lasted in my hands. 
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-amt1-4-air-motion-transformer-tweeter--275-090


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## Jon Liu

I'm going to chime in and say I also love Line Array for home theater usage. Not to throw a monkeywrench into things, but if you are looking for alternative DIY options, you definitely will also want to check out GR-Research's line sources (I use the LS9's). Incredible, incredible speakers and Danny Richie is an wonderfully nice individual to boot!


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## RAW

Jon Liu said:


> I'm going to chime in and say I also love Line Array for home theater usage. Not to throw a monkeywrench into things, but if you are looking for alternative DIY options, you definitely will also want to check out GR-Research's line sources (I use the LS9's). Incredible, incredible speakers and Danny Richie is an wonderfully nice individual to boot!


I agree having worked hand and hand with Danny on many projects he is a great guy.. 
But this room can not work for a set of LS6 or LS9 with no question at all.If you look into the photos he posted he has no room for a true line array, but maybe a small ARRAY. And I bet Danny will back me on that one :T For the placement in this room the LINE array will not work.


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## Architect7

Perceval, you are in good hands with Al (RAW), he built my Lambda Plus towers


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## mrkennyk

The Beston RT003c is very directional. The RT001a may work in multiples for an array. It also crosses lower.


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## perceval

Well, I just ordered 16 of those 8 Ohms 3" drivers.

I'll try a few different combinations... need to experiment a bit to understand it all.

First of all, would like to try them wired up as 4-2-2.. if that's possible!
Then add a tweeter, and after that maybe a bigger driver for the lower end.

Should be a fun trip!


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## perceval

Been over DIYAudio mostly, so I figured I would update this thread!

I got my 16 initial drivers. They were ok, but I couldn't push them under 250Hz via EQ as they were breaking up pretty quickly. At $20 a piece, I would have expected better.

I tried to get Vifa TC9FD, the manufacture is just up north of me, in China. Never got an answer from them. I also found Wavecor and Fountek (the FE87). Both were much more expensive, even though I have a local distributor that gets them directly from the factory.

I found a cheap little $3 driver made locally. The first one was a fiberglass cone. It was not terrible, but not great either. I got a couple of units to try. Decided I was going to practice this build with those cheap ones, I contacted the maker... but they were out! But... they said they had a new one, polymer cone that was a bit better.

Got a few of them sent to me and... YES! much better!

So, I build a test box before committing to 25-driver towers! Sounds good!

I'll be busy coming up with a 25-driver tower now!


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## perceval

And for the almost finished story.

16 drivers per array, so that's 32 holes and router work, 128 pre-drilled screw... not for the impatient kind!

But the soundstage they provide is amazing. Listening to music, and it expands the experience to a real 3D feeling. Watching a movie feels like being inside a huge movie theater. 

I get a huge grin on my face every time I turn the system on!


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## Jstslamd

I can't view any of the photos.


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## perceval

Sorry, should be fixed now.

Website was not allowing linking to the original images... but they showed up on my computer!


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## video1

How do these type of DIY line arrays compare with a commercial speaker line array (am I using the term correctly here) of the Bohlender Graebner Radia 520?


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## perceval

video1 said:


> How do these type of DIY line arrays compare with a commercial speaker line array (am I using the term correctly here) of the Bohlender Graebner Radia 520?


Well, since I have never heard those (and probably never will from where I am living now) I honestly couldn't tell you how they compare soundwise. But comparing my arrays which cost me $100 in drivers and time spent building them to a commercial pair sold at $4,000 is a bit weird. Plus, the arrays you mentioned are ribbons and the lowest they will go is 350Hz. 

I've been running them ever since, and for HT, they provide an amazing soundstage and make me feel I am in a very big and expensive movie theater. For music, the fast transients are amazing, these arrays are lightning quick. I wouldn't recommend any arrays for solo acts... expand the soundstage a bit too much there.

You can have a listen to them, I recorded with a stereo condenser mic a few songs that show them up!
Taken from DIYAudio pages, I have a Soundcloud recording done at reference levels (I was alone in the house and the neighbors away!) then the same on a Youtube video, sadly, the recording had to be done at much lower levels that time, same songs...

SoundCloud:
https://soundcloud.com/perceval-1/arrays-with-eq-to-flat

Youtube link:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...e-array-line-source-build-22.html#post3928228


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## video1

It's always tough to tell how a speaker system sounds with a recording via a mike, but you did a really nice job with the recording! And your speakers sound really nice. Did you build the cabinets yourself as well?

With small drivers you get fast transient response. The only downside of small drivers is you sometimes loose out on the midbass. I would think that if you cross it over with a subwoofer that gets up a little higher in the range than the typical 80 Hz cutoff would work great for a system like yours.

I have the BG's and they have lightening quick transient response. The film has very little mass so it can respond very quickly.

The biggest issue with the BG's for HT use is that they're a bit picky vertically. So the sweet spot may be a bit small, which is not ideal for HT use. That's why I got the 520's instead of the 420's. The speaker is about 5 ft tall which helps. But I've had some opinions from people that claim that these won't put out at reference level without straining the driver. I guess when I put the system back together (we're moving) I'll have to test it out.


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## perceval

Yep, all DIY stuff. Cabinets are thick half PVC pipes, with wooden baffle. 

I have them crossed at 100Hz to my sub, soon to be a pair of subs!

Good luck with the moving!


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