# New to HTS



## Deman

Hello every1,

New to the site and looking for some information. A little bout myself I live in Red Deer Alberta Canada with a young family. Enough about that 

I have 1500-2000 and am looking for a 5.1 6.1 home audio system (receiver, sub(must have a nice bass pump to it(10" i assume would be the ideal)), 2 front tower, 2 backs(surrounds) a front center and possibly a back center). This will be used for gaming, movies, general tv and ofcourse music. I live in a four level split so need something that can fill the house or atleast put in a solid atempt.

I have done some research and have found some brands of interest (hsu,psb,ascend acoustic,yamaha,athena, bose). However I am looking for dealers close so the shipping or duty costs are elminated.

Anyone with system ideas and dealers feel free to let me know. Thanks in advance


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## drdoan

Welcome to the Forum. Have fun. Dennis


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## Mike P.

Welcome! Thread moved to the * "Home Theater System Recommendations"* forum.


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## hearingspecialist

Hello and welcome!!! Check out Fluance, I think they are in your neck of the woods.

I'm gonna vote for Ascend Acoustics though especially with the release of their awesome new tower :T


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## Deman

Just to add if you guys have any other systems that I should maybe buy a receiver and two towers to start and finish the system later. I would be willing to go that route aswell. Suggestions and experience is greatly appreciated. Thanks again


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Welcome to HTS. Unfortunately, it seems AV gear costs a good bit more in Canada. I would also look at used gear as well to maximize your budget. Either way, good luck on this project and know we are here for any questions you might have.
Cheers,
JJ


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## robbo266317

Welcome aboard.

Bill.


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## tesseract

Glad you could join us, Deman!


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## GranteedEV

Hi Deman. I live in Calgary and there's definitely a good deal of hi fi shops here that you could check out. You should contact them and arrange an appointment, then drive down here to the city for some auditions on a weekend or something.

I would budget about 1k give or take on stereo mains with plenty of clean output and natural sound quality, around 2-300 on some decent surrounds, and around 500 on a QUALITY receiver.

General Audio near Chinook Center sells Focal speakers
K&W Audio sells Def Tech, Martin Logan, PSB, and MK sound speakers
Good ol' Best Buy sells Infinity Primus P363 speakers. Getting an audition is tough but they're a good speaker and can be had online at resellers for dirt cheap
Axe Music sells great pro monitors like Behringer 3031P i believe. 
If you're willing to drive up to grand prairie, Echo Sound carries RBH speakers.
Loyalty Sound carries Harbeth Speakers.

The above are all worth auditioning if they've got any models at your price point. Try giving them a call at the very least.

At your price point, you may also wish to check internet direct. What you lose in shipping or duty, you gain in sheer value - I wouldn't mind letting you audition my EMP Tek e55tis which fit well into your general budget, although my living room probably isn't exactly ideal for an official audition (unlike the 30 day in-home trial). :T

Axiom Audio  is a Canadian internet direct brand you may consider. I believe they offer free shipping in Canada, and their M60s might be an option for you.

Speakers aside, you need to

For subwoofers, I recommend going Funkywaves or SVS OR - if you're willing - DO IT YOURSELF  :hsd::hsd::hsd::hsd:

I wouldn't really budget a center speaker to be honest. I think a good center can be great and a poor center is essentially a waste of money, and at this price point the good centers are rare to say the least. You're better off spending that part of the budget on the subwoofer, and letting stereo mains act as a phantom center.

Finally we get to a receiver. You want a good one, but the MSRP for a decent receiver with a quality amplifier section is normally about 1k. I think that's ridiculous to be honest, as electronics barely alter the sound. So - don't pay MSRP! :spend:

I recommend a receiver like this one:

http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...w-X-7ch-Home-Theater-Surround-Receiver/1.html

I think it has all the performance you'll need - sans 3D (get an SR5005 from the same site if 3D is important). The MSRP of 849 is pretty much on point - it's a really good receiver for a great price (maybe add like $30 GST after it goes through customs).

As a warning, the one I linked is a FACTORY REFURB. It's an authorized dealer and I purchased my SR6003 from them but that's a warning you should hear. I think it's a great deal and lets you focus your budget on speakers.

When it comes to auditioning, you really need to bring a CD with demo material which is

- Well mastered (so the balance is correct on a good speaker, and hopefully has some dynamic range in the mix)
- uncompressed (not MP3) 
- something you're well familiar with (so you can listen to the speaker for once rather than be tricked by the music)
- natural - synthetic sounds like lasers or dinosaur stomps sound decent on even poor setups. that's how bose sells its tiny little cube speakers. What you need are sounds you can recognize in real life - IE a violin, guitar, drum, human voice, etc. The more natural a system sounds, the more enjoyable the OVERALL experience is. Remember, you're not buying a system to listen to the system, you're buying the system to act as a window to the content you want to experience, and you want that experience to be memorable!
- varied - you want to test different aspects of a system - maybe deep bass, or male voice, or female voice, or high end detail, etc. The same kind of track might not be the right approach. You still want tracks you'd listen to in real life, but try to get a broad picture of what's going on!

Finally, regarding bose, steer clear, in my opinion. Their speakers are made to impress in specific environments, rather than any attempt at dealing with real life situations like listening to real life audio in real life rooms at real life SPLs with real life reproduction. 

When auditioning, perhaps take a notebook, close your eyes, and write down your thoughts as you listen. "Can I place the sound somewhere on an imaginary stage and where?? How loud is it, and how loud do I want it to be? How far am I and how far will I be? How sharp is the centering of the image? Did it sound natural? Did it sound hyped? is the placement appropriate? How would the floor and walls be affecting the sound as it gets to my ears? When I move around, does the sound change? How would I be sitting at home? How much of the perceived bass performance is the speaker and how much is the room? Are there any suspicious electronics (IE Tube Amplifiers) being used?". Ask the dealer for information on how best to drive the speaker and don't beleive a word they say on the sound of wires, electronics, and burn-in  

Things like that.

Finally, I would purchase based at least partially on measurements. From 200hz to 10khz i would want +/- 2db tolerance (flat frequency response and no peaking outside of that passband) and I want it to remain similar out to 60 degrees off axis. I want sensitivity, impedance, and electrical phase under control so as to not compromise sound quality with my choice of amplification. You normally want bass extension with meaningful output down to around 60hz if you're going to go with an 80hz crossover, and down to around 35hz or so if you're going to cross around 60hz. This is more relevant for mains than surrounds, which don't need to play as loud or low.

At the end of the day though, nothing beats a true in-home audition, no matter what. A good dealer will usually let you do this if you're serious about purchasing. And definitely consider studio monitors like JBL Pro LSR, Mackie, and Behringer Truth.

Bringing some movie content never hurts either but definitely consider it secondary to music content, because good music speakers that can play decently loud (especially from 100hz - 250hz) nearly always make good movie speakers.


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## Deman

Thank you all for the warm welcome..

Big thanks for GranteedEV. The type of information I was lookiong for thank you.

I have decided to right now with my $2000 budget get two towers and the receiver. Then worry about sub second and additional speakers down the road.

With that new price range I am considering four different brands.


Martin Logan Motion 12 or 10

Definitive Technology Mythos Four or Five / BP-8040st or BP-8020st (anyone know about these says they already have a sub 8" i believe in the towers)

Axiom Audio M80 or M60

Emp Tek E55Ti or E5Ti


with any of these towers
and future 5.1 or 6.1 added speakers whats the receivers that I should be looking into. 
in my price range I see a jump between about $400 and $1000 depending of tower choice.

Thanks again to everyone and and future help.


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## GranteedEV

'built-in subs' do not have the clean displacement you want. I wouldn't do any less than a 12 inch driver with extension down to 25hz. To move the same amount of air as a 12, an 8 would need about three times the excursion. More excursion just reduces linearity.

Definitely get to auditioning, and get back to us before you pull any triggers, there might be information you need to know. For example, i woulnt run the axiom m80 off a receiver... it wants a separates amp.


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## Deman

So got down to audio video in town today and took a couple pairs of speakers for a test drive.

First was Monitor Silver RX6 priced at 1499 a pair cdn
i listened to a couple different classical tracks, old rock n roll some metal and went through a bit of avatar really hearing the tight and crisp sound of each insturment following with a nice level of bass travelling right with everything. Nothing over powered anything it just all hit you at once nicely. I also tried the step down from them the Monitor Bronze BX6 which priced at 999 a pair cdn. I certainly noticed a difference in the tight and crispness dropping a bit still trying to figure out if the step up is worth the 500 bucks. Side from the sound the apperance of the Silvers was glossed while the other was not both attractive speakers. 

Second was Paradigm Monitor 11 priced at 1499 a pair cdn these speakers i thought sounded a bit sloppy compared to other first one. Sounds were not as tight or crisp yet the bass was more involved on all tracks which was one thing i liked. When it came to apperance they looked like a bit messy aswell compared to the craftsmenship of the others.

Both of these setups was with an intergra amp DTR with network i believe 20.3 which i liked the features of aswell as the look. This was priced at 800 ish could get for $650

Unable to get to Calgary anytime soon so will either be buying unheard or relying on reviews or choosing local..


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## gdstupak

If I ever get to upgrade speakers, the Monitor Silver RX6 is at the top of my list.

My advice for choosing between the Bronze or Silver (or any set of speakers), if you can hear a difference and can afford it, get the better sounding speakers, even if you have to skimp on something else. 
Get the best speakers you can afford now because they will please you for the next 20yrs or until you can afford to replace with better speakers. To me, speakers are the biggest contributor to what you hear and how much you enjoy the experience.


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## Deman

So Monday tuesday will be purchasing the integra dtr-20.3 also will be ordering 2 axiom m60s along with a axiom vp150 center. three axiom speakers are the same price as just the pair of monitor silver rx6 towers. so if i dont like em they have a 30 day money backs guarentee that i will then transfer over to getting the monitor silver rx6. Any opinions from anyone before i do this?


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## Deman

Update ordered the onkyo tx-nr709 receiver over the weekend. its certified 4 ohm along with multieq and network really appealed to me. Soon to order the axiom m80s (two center for now adding a third for a center then qs8 for surround and a svs / hsu or sunfire sub)

apparently when I ordered the onkyo nothing went through cuz they dont ship to canada. So picked up the intergra drt-20.3 and waitting for the m80s


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## GranteedEV

Regarding the M80s, I think you will still hear a big difference going from a so-called 4 ohm receiver to a true 4-ohm stable separates amp. My guess is because the m80s have very demanding phase angles that basically make it act like a 2 ohm speaker rather than a 4 ohm resistive load. Keep that in mind. Axiom does not publish phase angles which flatters the impedance of their speakers.


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## im1

error


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## Deman

So i change receivers like i change my underwear..

Final buy denon avr 3311...

oh boy ive been all over the place. Think i made the right choice this time. Gives everything I need now and room for the future. and at what i believe is a great price.


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## Dale Rasco

Hi Deman, welcome to HTS! :wave:


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## Deman

Am I able to run 2 subs off of this new receiver the denon avr3311ci or do i need a seperate amp?

Im thinking that 2 subs would be better then one.


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## gdstupak

Even with an AVR not made with 2 sub outputs, 2 subs can be run using a splitter. But I believe your AVR does have 2 sub outputs anyway. And I believe your AVR calibrates 2 separate subs.

2 or more subs can sound much better than 1. But if not calibrated properly, it can sound worse than a single sub. I spend many hours getting my 2 outboard subs to work together and then to work with my main speaker subs. But in the end, it's worth it.


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## Deman

Thanks for the reply. I have a few brands in mind. HSU , SVS , EPIK , and SUNFIRE. Any opinions and with these 4. I would assume by the looks I might be limited with getting 2 at the $1000 mark. But also would I be better getting one sub at $500 and a center speaker. As all I have now in the 2 front towers.


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## gdstupak

For me, it would be hard to pick between equivalent models of the HSU or SVS. If I had to choose right now, I would say HSU. Both of these makers perform superbly and differences between the two are nit-picky.

If I would be able to come up with the funds for a center channel in the very near future, I would go ahead and get 2 subs now, then a center. But I am definitely in favor of having a center channel.
Now for those advocates of non-center channel systems, I agree that a very good stereo front system that is set up properly can give a great representation of having a center channel. The problem comes from material that isn't recorded perfectly or when an AVR doesn't put the center channel info into the L/R speakers perfectly, so that is the time that a center channel is needed to plant those sounds in the middle.
So many times I have listened to material with the center channel off but I would swear sound/dialogue was coming from that center channel speaker that I would have to put my ear up against it.
But then there are a few times when sounds/dialogue should be coming from the center but aren't, and then turning on the center channel fixes the situation.


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## Deman

So in short if I can only afford a sub and center do that. As I cant afford 2 subs and a center. The center to match my towers is $700 so would have to be a About the same for the sub or less.


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## gdstupak

Deman said:


> So in short if I can only afford a sub and center do that.


That is my advice.


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## Deman

On that ote with a price range of say $500 give or take whats the sub I should be looking at?


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## GranteedEV

Deman said:


> Thanks for the reply. I have a few brands in mind. HSU , SVS , EPIK , and SUNFIRE. Any opinions and with these 4. I would assume by the looks I might be limited with getting 2 at the $1000 mark. But also would I be better getting one sub at $500 and a center speaker. As all I have now in the 2 front towers.


Sunfire is the odd man out in that list... totally out of place 

I think a good center speaker is extremely tough to find so you're probably better off investing more in a second sub. Two subs are definitely better than one. 90% of centers won't even sound as good as using your towers as a phantom. What's worse is those Axiom centers... two horizontal tweeters could in my mind never be a good idea... the lobing would be a disaster as far as I can tell. I think sticking with your towers is going to satisfy you a lot more... not even factoring in the $700 spent. Two $550 Rythmik FV12s would be a definitely SWEET option...so on that note, besides EPIK, SVS, and HSU, you should really take a long hard look at Rythmik and Funkywaves (another Canadian company) subs. A pair of Epik Empires would of course be a wonderful combo, and two HSU VTF-3s are another great choice. 

I believe a bit in surface area equating to a superior sub. The tradeoff is normally box size, but as a general rule, the less driver excursion you need to hit a certain SPL, the cleaner the sound should be (and the closer you are to the motor's linear range in its BL curve). That's why I wouldn't even go lower than an 18" driver  

Nothing would beat DIY if you give it some serious consideration. Maybe three CSS Trio12 kits would fit into your budget and I don't think you can beat that dollar for dollar.

And don't forget, those M80s might _really_ benefit from a good outbound amp, like a Behringer A500 or Emotiva XPA-2

And if all that didn't convince you to go with two subs, hopefully this will:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/two-subs


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## Deman

With regards to (And don't forget, those M80s might really benefit from a good outbound amp, like a Behringer A500 or Emotiva XPA-2)

The Emotiva seems to be an expensive little unit at $800. The Behringer I can purchase for $250 but could be a month for it to come in. Im also told that the Samsung Servo300 is comparable to the behringer if not better for a slightly higher price ($285) the servo300 is available now.

Looking at all the subs I cant spend more then $700 canadian all said and done a sub. Thats shipping and taxes

That leaves - 
2xFunky waves FW 10.1 
2xRythmik FV12
2xSVS SB12-NSD
2xHSU VTF-MK3
Epik Dual Empires (just over price range) / Dual Legends


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## Jungle Jack

Deman said:


> Am I able to run 2 subs off of this new receiver the denon avr3311ci or do i need a seperate amp?
> 
> Im thinking that 2 subs would be better then one.


Hello,
The AVR-3311 has Dual Subwoofer Outputs so adding an additional Subwoofer could not be any easier. Worst case, you could have used a Y Connector to Connect 2 Subwoofers, but you do not even need to do that as the 3311 has 7.2 Preamp Outputs.

I will say that 1 really high quality Subwoofer is far better than 2 lesser Subwoofers. That is Subwoofers that cannot output high SPL's at 20hz. Sadly, many Subwoofers cannot do so.

There are definite advantages to using dual Subwoofers and I have recently added an additional Subwoofer and the results are simply amazing. However, both Subwoofers are capable of going down to 20hz.
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV

Deman said:


> With regards to (And don't forget, those M80s might really benefit from a good outbound amp, like a Behringer A500 or Emotiva XPA-2)
> 
> The Emotiva seems to be an expensive little unit at $800. The Behringer I can purchase for $250 but could be a month for it to come in. Im also told that the Samsung Servo300 is comparable to the behringer if not better for a slightly higher price ($285) the servo300 is available now.


They appear to be similar. Behringer rates their power at 1% THD while samson is using a more conservative .004% THD so despite the seemingly spec differences the performance is likely similar.

I would definitely want as much power into a 4 ohm load as possible... 

a few other options you should strongly consider on the used market:

200 wpc into 4 ohm denon POA5200

475w into 4 ohms Crest FA1201




> 2xFunky waves FW 10.1
> 2xRythmik FV12
> 2xSVS SB12-NSD
> 2xHSU VTF-MK3
> Epik Dual Empires (just over price range) / Dual Legends


I would scratch the SB12. While I'm sure it's a great sub for a smaller room, i don't think it will have the necessary extension in a larger room... you should be looking at the PB12. Same with the dual legends.

My choice would lean towards the Dual FV12s for top notch sound quality and pretty good output :Ts or the Dual Empires for top notch output and pretty good sound quality.. :hsd:

Of course, dual FV15HPs or F25s might be what I'd end up getting, somehow blowing my entire budget in the process <_<;;


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I too am a big fan of Rythmik as well. I also think dual HSU VTF-2 MKIII's would work really well as it is essentially the previous VTF-3 with just a slightly less powerful Amplifier being sold at a far lower price than the VTF-3. If interested in the current VTF-2, check out Reviews for older VTF-3's as that is truly what it is and will be more representative of what you would be getting.

As far as Amplifiers go, I am not a huge fan of Behringer. I realize that many here and elsewhere are. They certainly offer a great deal of power for very little money, but I would definitely prefer an Emotiva over it. And moreover, would prefer a used Parasound HCA Series, used Rotel, used Acurus/Aragon far more.
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV

I'd recommend the Denon or an Emotiva UPA-2 before the Behringer myself. I think I just threw it out there as a general suggestion.

Another one i'd consider is this guy:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/648942247-hafler_dh500_power_amplifier/

Which is good for 375wpc into 4 ohms.


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## Deman

So aside from the amp right now I am considering for a sub

funkywave 15.3 with 1000w amp
or
svs pc-ultra powered cylinder


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## GranteedEV

Deman said:


> So aside from the amp right now I am considering for a sub
> 
> funkywave 15.3 with 1000w amp
> or
> svs pc-ultra powered cylinder


The LMS-R and SDX-15 used in the FW15.3 are both world class drivers. I do think they need a more powerful amp to get the full potential out of em.


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## Deman

GranteedEV said:


> The LMS-R and SDX-15 used in the FW15.3 are both world class drivers. I do think they need a more powerful amp to get the full potential out of em.


I understand that fully. There are two options of 1000w upgrade amp or 2000w upgrade amp. As this is already overt budget I decided on the 1000w where I assume it will be more then enough. Correct me if Im wrong.


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## Deman

GranteedEV seeing all the amps you posted are 2 channel. I think seeming that I eventually want to match the front 2 m80s with a vp180 from axiom having the same ratings as the m80s I will need a 3 channel amp now for the future. I see the emotiva xpa-3 is very nice yet in reading about getting it shipped to canada is a pain in the and costly. Any suggestions for a decent 3 channel in canada? Not sure if able but hoping for $500 or less. Is that possible? Ill go more if needed but would rather not.


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## Deman

With running these 2 m80s and getting the vp180 (same as the m80 just horizantal) Should I run it off a seperate amp aswell or be good with just the main m80s running off a seperate amp.


Any help is appreciated.


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## GranteedEV

While I would run the VP180 off a separates amp, I don't think it'd ever be a great choice for a center channel because it has two tweeters spaced well apart on the horizontal axis. This can only hurt dialogue intelligibility and makes it a waste of money.

In that general price range, for a center channel (and if it's not to late even matching mains) you might be better off getting the Aperion Audio Verus Grand Center. Yes, it's an american company so you'd end up paying import duties (unless they offer to pay it for you, like they did for a stretch last winter to all canadians) but it would sound a lot more clear, natural, and keep you from straining to know what's going on in a movie. That is a center which is far more worth your money, and I think it's easy for a receiver to drive as well. 

Aesthetics might not match, but that's my advice :T

And of course, the Verus Grand Towers ain't half bad either... I think I'd probably prefer them over the M80s personally.


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## Deman

Thanks again. Im sold on the m80s I got them and like them. Now as far as keeping everything in the same family I will be down the road get the vp180. However I understand the concern with the dual tweeters but have talked to other owners and they are over happy with the vp180.

As far as amps go locally I have found a powersoft q5001 4channel amp running at 350w rms at 4ohm ,
on two channel its running 700w rms at 4ohm. Can get for aroujdn $1000.

Any imput on that.


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## gdstupak

If you can't buy the exact same model of speaker for the front 3, then it is best to at least get the center speaker that is supposedly "made" to work with the other 2.

An amp shouldn't color the sound but I believe that some do, especially when comparing outboard amps with AVRs. Using different amps for the front 3 speakers could cause them to sound different from each other.


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## Deman

so a 6 month old xpa2 for 650 cdn plus shipping

would mean that down the line I would need to purchase a mono to run the center when i get it.
so i would be well over a grand for the 3 speakers on amps. 

or go powersoft with the 4channel amp that i can get for just over $1000 no shipping

or i buy a xpa3 from factory and pay shipping and customs. over a $1000 aswell

or mono outlaws 2200 on sale for $810 plus shipping and customs


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I would look at what is available in Canada as well and avoid the Customs. There are a number of Used AV Gear Websites and even Audiogon has some Listings that are from Canada. A used Bryston would be an excellent choice and has a 20 Year Fully Transferable Warranty so you can purchase a 10 year old Amplifier and still have a much better Warranty than 99% of new ones.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Deman

So apparently bryston no longer allows warrenty transfers.

So i am back at looking at 
mono amps
emotiva xpa1 x2
upa1 x 2
outlaw 2200 x2

2channel
emotiva xpa2 x1

On these options with the idea of cranking my m80s with no worries of damage but with enough power to rock and roll. Any help is still greatly appreciated.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I was not aware that Bryston no longer offered a Transferable Warranty. Where did you hear that? As for as long as I can remember that was the case including about 4 years ago when I owned a Bryston. Regardless, they are built to last like very few others and boast an impressive Roster of Companies that use them.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I went to their Website and the Transferable Warranty is still in effect. With Products made after 2006, you do need a Sales Receipt and to call Bryston or go to a Bryston Dealer with the Reciept, but the Warranty is still 20 Years.

Here is the full deal: "NOTE: Products sold prior to February 2006 do NOT require a bill of sale for warranty service.

The warranty is transferable from the original owner to a subsequent owner as long as a copy of the bill-of-sale from the original authorized Bryston dealer accompanies the re-sale. The copy of the bill of sale to any subsequent owner need ONLY include the Name of the Bryston Authorized Dealer and the Model and Serial number of the Bryston product. The warranty will only be honored in the country of the original purchase unless otherwise pre-authorized by Bryston."

With every experience I have had with them, I would imagine they would still be pretty understanding if the Sales Receipt was missing provided you spoke to them prior. Moreover, most folks who Purchase expensive AV Components do tend to hold on to their Receipts.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Deman

I found a used one on the canuck market and when I asked the guy about the warrenty he said he called bryston and was told that they will no longer transfer warrentys away from the original purchaser.

Any suggestions on the amps I noted above?


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## Deman

The one I found must of been older then I would assume...


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I would be surprised if that was the case, but I suppose if it was a 3b or 4b and not an ST, SST, or SST2 it could be over 20 Years old. The only other thing I could think of is if it was Purchased in the US and taken to Canada.
Again, Bryston tends to be most accommodating of honoring the Warranty as it their Customer Service is truly legendary.

What Model is it? I would call Bryston with the Serial Number and ask the Seller if he has the receipt and or it was purchased in the US.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Deman

4b...wouldnt state when it was bought but said he was gonna email me the information to call bryston myself..

still thinking of the other amps noted though. 

those bryston amps seem good but they should be for the price tag. im also not too sure the wifey will tend to b on the boat of a used $2000 dollar amp set


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
If having to choose of the Amplifiers you have listed, I would go with the XPA-1. However, I do not know which Bryston you are looking at. Bryston being Made in Canada and using outstanding Parts to back up their peerless Warranty would be my choice all things being equal. As the other Amplifiers do not even allow Transferable Warranty's, I would not let the Bryston not having a Warranty be an issue. Of course you could buy a new Emotiva, but you get a good bit more for your money on the Used Market.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Deman

They are 4b - 470 st amps rated for 500w into 4ohm i believe.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
So it is a b Series and not even an ST so it is over 20 years old. I would probably steer clear of it and perhaps look for a newer ST or SST Model. With the 4b, you might want to see when it was last Serviced, but again would look for a newer Model.
JJ


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## Deman

So at a price tag of 2775 shipped i found a 4b sst with 15 year warrenty left... this is a 2 channel amp at 500w into 4ohms...


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## Jungle Jack

Deman said:


> So at a price tag of 2775 shipped i found a 4b sst with 15 year warrenty left... this is a 2 channel amp at 500w into 4ohms...


Hello,
That would be correct, but that seems to be an awfully high price as the Canadian Dollar is worth so much these days. The 4b SST is an awesome Amplifier, but I would think at that price you might be able to find a newer SST2.
Also, Bryston includes the Bench Test of each Amplifier they make and it is universally underrated in terms of Power Output.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Deman

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> That would be correct, but that seems to be an awfully high price as the Canadian Dollar is worth so much these days. The 4b SST is an awesome Amplifier, but I would think at that price you might be able to find a newer SST2.
> Also, Bryston includes the Bench Test of each Amplifier they make and it is universally underrated in terms of Power Output.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Im going to keep looking but the only 4b sst2 i see so far is 2900 plus shipping was puchased in jan this year.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
For only 125 Dollars more, that is definitely the direction I would go if considering the 4b SST. The 4b SST is an outstanding Amplifier that will literally last you Decades. I would also keep your eye out for the 9b ST or SST as it is a 5 Channel Amplifier albeit with less power than the 4b Series. However, it still should be powerful enough for all but the most demanding Speakers and or using a huge Room.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Deman

What about cross talk when we get into the 4b or 9b.. Thought the way to go was monoblocks atleast thats what ive been reading.

Also for the 9b should I be looking at the version 2? or will the original do?

These amps are certainly in a higher price range for me. I am also wondering if I am spending the extra money on a warrenty that I probally will never need. 

I start to think the extra xpa1 I could buy and being brand new. Any thoughts


I also read that the 4bsst2 and 6bsst2 are both mono blocks built in one enclosure for a 2 and 3 channel amp. Is this the truth? Seeming that I will have no more them the front 3 speakers for a few years (my 2 m80s plus another in a few months) I dont need the lower powered 5 channel amp.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I believe the 9b did not appear until the ST Series. Moreover, it is a true Mono Design where each of the 5 Channels has its own Power Supply and Capacitors with the only thing being shared is the Power Cord so Crosstalk should not even be a remote possibility.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Jungle Jack

If you do not need a 5 Channel Amplifier, than a 4B ST or SST would provide plenty of power. As would the 6B SST. You are right about not probably needing the Warranty as again the Parts Quality is absolutely top notch.

All that being said, it is nice to have the Warranty as a hedge. In addition, over the years an Amplifier might need adjustment to the Bias or new Capacitors to operate at peak operation even though the Amplifier appears to be working perfectly.
JJ


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## Deman

As I would love a Bryston 4b sst or 6b sst If I cant find one that has warrenty left and is under $3000 it looks like I may be going with the xpa 1s and at that point maybe falling short a bit but it seems that a 4b sst2 is $3000 while not even finding a 6b sst2 I would venture at guess that it would be in the $5000 mark. These pups might just be out of my reach for the time being.


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## GranteedEV

I don't whatsoever believe in spending 2-3k on amps for a 1.4k pair of speakers.. it's absolutely ridiculous and will not net you anything you need in the end. Spend a good $4-500 but don't overdo it. Amps do not have such an effect on sound quality that you'll hear the difference between them unless they're notably underpowered. 300wpc into 4 ohm is all you need.

The XPA-3s or 2s will be perfect and perhaps overkill themselves. If you're willing to spend any more then you would have been better off getting higher end loudspeakers than you did from the start. I just can not see it as being cost-effective. At best it will sound a slight bit better at high volumes than your receiver and at worst you end up blowing your speakers with far too much power. 

There's a myth that goes around that too much power doesn't blow speakers, but too little does.

It is just that - a myth. Yes, clipping produces a waveform at peak amp power which does not do tweeters well.

But a 50 watt amp will never blow 250 watt rated speakers unless it's at resonance frequency. 
On the other hand, a 500 watt amp has potential to blow 250 watt rated speakers. 
A bit of extra, unused power never hurt anyone but don't overdo it. Unless you've got 20k passive speakers with 1000 watts of rated power handling, chances are you're just not being wise with your money.

I really recommend a pair of the Outlaw 2200 monoblocks. That's all you need to spend and all you need to get good sound quality out of your Axioms. If and when you decide to add that axiom center (I still don't recommend that either) then you can add a third Outlaw 2200. The Emotiva UPA-1s are also perfect for your needs.

Don't overdo it, because you'd have been much better off getting $3-4k/pair speakers like the Salk V3s, Revel F52s or JTR Triple 12s. You didn't - you went with 1.5k/pair speakers and all of sudden you're looking at expensive amps!? 

It's like buying a Honda Civic and then putting racing tires on which cost more than the car... You wouldn't do it!

On that note, the amps on your receiver really should not have difficult driving surrounds, especially if separates are dealing with the mains.


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## gdstupak

GranteedEV said:


> I don't whatsoever believe in spending 2-3k on amps for a 1.4k pair of speakers.. it's absolutely ridiculous and will not net you anything you need in the end......
> ....It's like buying a Honda Civic and then putting racing tires on which cost more than the car... You wouldn't do it!
> 
> On that note, the amps on your receiver really should not have difficult driving surrounds, especially if separates are dealing with the mains.


+1

Do you listen at earbleeding levels?


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## GranteedEV

gdstupak said:


> +1
> 
> Do you listen at earbleeding levels?


If he wants to spend more anywhere, it should go towards multiple subwoofers, which have measurable and audible effects on in-room bass quality and also quantity.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Definitely some excellent points. The Bryston direction of the Thread started for me with the statement that the 20 Year Fully Transferable Warranty no longer applied which was shocking to read. From there, it became more of an intellectual conversation about Brystons of which I am a huge fan.

While certainly not cheap, they are the kind of Amplifiers that will last for decades and also have about the best Resale Value of any Amplifier on the market. B.E.L's are right there as well.

This brings me to perhaps looking for a 10 year old Bryston 3B ST which will still offer 10 years of Warranty and should be available for well under a grand. While not as powerful as a 4b, it will offer plenty of power for the Axioms.
JJ


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## gdstupak

I think of amps as an extra after getting the full basic 5.1 set up complete.

My $1400(USD) ATI 6 channel amp is more than I need, so far, for over 9 yrs.


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## Deman

I certainly appreciate the information being given from all parties. I think with all the information I was given I made an out of myself assuming that I needed big power on these m80s to get clear sound at high volumes and avoid clipping. 

This is why I signed up to a forum as I started out knowing nothing and now I know a bit more, but still havent brushed the surface.

I take it as going with the monos is all I need. I was swayed to larger amps as I read that the m80s can handle it with no harm being done. Yet I understand the point of why spend more on an amp then I did on my speakers.

As far as the bryston goes again I looked at the value of the warrenty and seen all over the net that they were one of the best, but yet again was going for as much power as I could get.

All of this is very good food for thought

Thanks again for the imput.


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## GranteedEV

The thing with the m80s is that they are as far as I know, rather current hungry, and most receiver amps get current limited and lose composure with low impedances and sharp phase angle swings. 

ATI amps (as far as I know, this includes the Outlaw Monoblocks) are one of my favorite options because they've been given very favorable powercube treatment by Peter Aczel.


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## Deman

So with regards to the amps my best bet would be the outlaw 2200 say over the upa1 from emotiva to run these guys?


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## GranteedEV

Deman said:


> So with regards to the amps my best bet would be the outlaw 2200 say over the upa1 from emotiva to run these guys?


I'd be willing to bet that those two amps would be virtually indistinguishable to your ears.... neither should have any difficulty driving the M80s by my guess, with 300wpc into 4 ohms on tap.

They're basically so similar that any differences are going to be mostly aesthetic. 

I just wanted to correct myself; it appears that Outlaw's monoblocks are not ATI amps btw.


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## Deman

Thanks again guys... So have decided to get three emotiva upa 1 mono amps along with vp180 ( I know I know ).I was thinking 2 m80s beside the tv with the other two spaced out an extra three feet but think the vp180 will be better.


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## Deman

Just a little update.

So ordered 3 upa-1s and a xpa-2 had about 70hours with each setup and then had a friend of mine help me with a blind test....

After various kinds of music at different levels and a couple action clips I can to a verdict.

The upa-1's were sent back... Leaving me with the xpa-2 and ordered a xpa-3 for the rest of my setup.


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## Theresa

Seems like a good decision to me.


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## Deman

What a pain in the ... 

Got my 15.3 from funkywaves today. not only is the craftsmenship over and above anything I've ever seen but the added bonus of solid hard and accurate bass is unbelievable.. 

However because of 95% of my electronics being on my main floor this is causing my alienware computer and hdtv sat box to run interference (ground loop) causing the unbareable hum. I believe I can solve the problem with filters. I am going to attempt that tomorrow hope all goes well. If anyone has suggestions feel free.


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## GranteedEV

Deman said:


> Got my 15.3 from funkywaves today. not only is the craftsmenship over and above anything I've ever seen but the added bonus of solid hard and accurate bass is unbelievable..


Congrats, not to mention that you supported a local Canadian business  - Just wait til you finally break down and decide to add two more, and add some GIK or RPG (or DIY) bass traps and play with placement and measurements and EQ and passive radiator tuning :dumbcrazy: 

as for ground loops, they're flat out problematic, no doubt about it. They've driven me crazy before. Your best bet is to use all digital connections (HDMI / Optical) where possible. I'd be steer clear ground loop isolators that adapt 3 prong plugs into 2 prong - huge safety risk. 

If anyone can help you, i'd expect it to be these guys:
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/iso_vid.html


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## Deman

Thanks. I was already thinking. I told the wife (whom looks at me and shakes her head) Hey hun I wonder how two of these subs would sounds with some room work for sounds quality.

Aside from that my entire home theatre system runs all HDMI cables nothing else. Seeing your url that appears to be exactly what I need. Thanks again.


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## nick714hb

sounds like a great setup......


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