# Can You Hear the Real Me??



## PepAX7 (Mar 11, 2008)

The Scene: 600 seat auditorium with stage. Rock band with stage monitors.. no in-ears.

Front of House engineer (FOH) is complaining the band is so loud that he barely has the FOH speakers turned up. Everyone turns amps down.

Musicians are livid.... they can't hear themselves play or sing!:hissyfit:

Stage volume rule of thumb... anyone?:huh:


----------



## jonathanm (Mar 24, 2010)

Oh, I know this, the ratio of foldback levels to front of house levels can be expressed as a number by using this formula.......

((foh*aor) / cuF (noms) )
(---------------------- )* pTIU
( (dh*aoa) )

foh - Front of house level in db
cuF - cubic feet of venue
noms - number of marshall stacks
aor - age of rockers
dh - percentage of hearing left in drummers right ear
aoa - age of audience
pTIU - probability of band just turning everything up as soon as they go on


----------



## BoogieBear (May 25, 2008)

PepAX7 said:


> The Scene: 600 seat auditorium with stage. Rock band with stage monitors.. no in-ears.
> 
> Front of House engineer (FOH) is complaining the band is so loud that he barely has the FOH speakers turned up. Everyone turns amps down.
> 
> ...


OK then here we go: :boxer:


Make sure all the drums are damped with rings, gel, gaffer tape or any of the usual suspects

Make the guitarists turn their amps pointing inwards no less than 45deg 90 deg across the stage is even better

Tell the band that the house power supply has a sound level meter attached that will cut the mains power if the overall level in the venue exceeds 85dB

Spend as much or more time getting the monitor mix and volume levels right on stage

During sound check if they don't listen, secretly pull (or have an assistant pull) the breaker for the stage power

Tell the band over the talk back that they exceeded the sound limit and wait 30 secs before restoring the power - doing this two or three times usually does the trick when the band are reminded that this could happen during the nights performance if they turn their amps up any higher!

It won't always work but it's worth a try! :T

Cheers
Anton


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

At our old church building we always had this problem. The band was way to loud and you could not hear the vocals without pushing everything above 90db's. For me the general rule was the stage volume was not to exceed 75db's at the sound booth. Drums were kept in behind a plexiglass booth and the bass and electric guitar had a blanket over the back of their amps top keep the sound from coming out the back of them. 
I always think of the mix as a layered cake: Rythum and guitars were the bottom layer unless doing a solo, Drums on top of that and piano on the next layer and then for the icing the loudest part were the vocals. 
Our move to our new building solved allot of issues. The Bass and electric guitar player both use headphones or in ears, Drums are digital and he also wares headphones. The auditorium its self is completely built to be acoustically sound and we installed a concert series sound system complete with subs.


----------



## immortalgropher (Feb 16, 2010)

Walk up to the vocalist and tell him "I can't hear you very well through the monitors because the
guitars are too loud...maybe you can ask them to turn the volume down".

Should work 85% of the time.


----------



## planetnine (Mar 3, 2009)

Heh, nice one Astral Plane!

Very much along the lines of what I was going to sugest as a last result -I ask the lead singer if hearing him is important. Divide and Conquer!

I find that the vocalists complain if the stage levels are to high and the backline, drums and cymbals mask the vocal monitors. Turn the backline down and the vocalists are happier, but the guitarists then complain they can't hear the cabs six feet behind them, even though you're only just hearing the vocals over them 100 ft away! Ususal problem here is their cab is sat on the floor and most of their sound passes straight past their legs. Bung it in the monitors if they can handle it, at least then it's pointed towards their ears.

This is where good communication and diplomacy are essential. Guitarists can be very sensitive (even precious) about their "sound", which includes the volume it is produced at, even to the detriment of the entire band's sound. Live performance and sound reinforcement is always a compromise to a degree, and working with them to find a best balance is the best course of action, although you are bound to meet individuals with whom there is no helping. This is when getting the vocalist on your side is one of few options left to you.

Remember that as a rule of thumb, you need to be able to reinforce to a level about 10dB above the stage sound to be able to retain some control over the overall instrument levels. Is this is not possible due to PA headroom, to not being able to give the vocalist enough gain before feedback, or because the resultant level is too loud for the venue/event/audience, then you will have a sound that is compromise by this stage level.

I have had one gig this month where I was asked repeatedly to turn down the guitarist, he was so loud on stage that I was not amplifying his cab at all. We had set levels in soundcheck and then he had turned up at showtime. There was nothing I could do bar send messages to stage to ask him to turn down at source.

Then saturday's gig was the opposite -bassist and guitarist in a theatre show who were only too happy to set their levels to whatever was needed, because some of the singers were wearing hairline lavaliers and it was difficult to amplify their solo spots. Very professional guys, and even the drummer was obliging behind his acrylic screen.

It's an age-old endemic problem, and I don't think it will ever go away.

Nathan.

>


----------



## PepAX7 (Mar 11, 2008)

Very good tips from all... thank you. It does help with "divide and conquer".:T

What about putting the monitors on a compressor/limiter and hold the level on stage at 85-89db?

What about an amp closet/room? I read that some venues are placing the amps off stage in an "amp room" to keep the "tone" guys(gtr players) happy and feeding this into the mons. Anyone see/try that?

Pep


----------



## immortalgropher (Feb 16, 2010)

PepAX7 said:


> Very good tips from all... thank you. It does help with "divide and conquer".:T
> 
> What about putting the monitors on a compressor/limiter and hold the level on stage at 85-89db?
> 
> ...


The amp room is indeed beginning to become popular, but you can also use a plexiglass iso chamber
with an open top to move the mic around in. If you have a 609 you can just loop it around the
amp handle and let it hang in that kind of a set up .

I wouldn't compress or limit the monitors...


----------



## maikol (Nov 7, 2008)

jonathanm said:


> Oh, I know this, the ratio of foldback levels to front of house levels can be expressed as a number by using this formula.......
> 
> ((foh*aor) / cuF (noms) )
> (---------------------- )* pTIU
> ...


:rofl2:


----------



## planetnine (Mar 3, 2009)

Re compressing/limiting the onstage monitors: it's not usually the monitors that cause the issues, rather the drums and backline amplification -which of course the SE has no direct control over. Sometimes you can lose control over a monitor mix in that everyone wants their monitor turned up to overpower everyone elses mixes instead of turning down what is not needed. This results in iterative requests to turn up, and the result is a stage level that makes you wince and a sound that you can't hear things through!

This is where good communication between SE and band, and trust and pragmatism on the part of the band are required. There will always be band member who expect the impossible or won't compromise...

>


----------



## mikev (May 10, 2010)

jonathanm said:


> Oh, I know this, the ratio of foldback levels to front of house levels can be expressed as a number by using this formula.......
> 
> ((foh*aor) / cuF (noms) )
> (---------------------- )* pTIU
> ...



:rofl:

This is probably the funniest sound thing I have seen in years. It made me just get a membership here. I came out of retirement to do a ZZ Top Tribute band and can relate to this. Some things have not changed over the years. A blaring guitarist with a new amp stack that just drives the whole sound levels is a problem. As always it is best to just talk with the loud offender, most likely they have had the talk from one of their local band members already. I find that physically turning the amps so everyone can hear helps. I am lucky to work with a 3 piece and older musicians that are fairly well disciplined. Unfortunately many older musicians have hearing loss of some type (my drummer does) and needs lots of db to hear. I moved his horn up to ear level and he was much happier. I used placement instead of db gain to help him hear better. We don’t have any in-ear monitoring stuff due to $$$. We used floor mount B52’s powered with a Crown402 for the 2 vocals. I always try doing my sound check primarily for the onstage mix. If I can get the musicians happy and monitors sounding good the house sound is easy

mikev


----------



## PepAX7 (Mar 11, 2008)

Yea, Mike, it is pretty funny! But, then again, I believe the equation to be valid and logical.:bigsmile:

Pep


----------



## Soundguy1 (Dec 3, 2008)

An amp room works great, as a sound guy I prefer to run and guitars direct if they are in a venue that doesn't allow them to turn up. They don't like their amps loud just so they can hear themselves, it also gives them the tone they want from the amp. 

Someone made a good point about having the players turn their amps sideways, I have asked several bands I have worked with to do this and they have been very helpful. I work with one band that they ask to have the guitar amp off stage. Sideways works best, a lot of cabs have an open back turning it all the way backwards wouldn't do anything.

Along the same lines make sure the monitors and guitar amps are pointed at the person, but not their knees, their ears where they hear from. You may need to stick on old hymnal (beer bottle if you are in a bar) or something under the front of your monitors to get the pointed up a little more. 

Another thing I see a lot of people doing is trying to get a FOH mix in the monitors, this just creates a huge mess of people saying that can hear themselves and things just keep getting louder. Think of not as mixing instruments but rhythm, pitch, and the person that is using that monitor. Give them something to stay on beat (kick, snare, bass), something for them to find their pitch (Acoustic guitar, keys, piano, ect), and themselves. When they ask for more of themselves cue their mix up and see why they can't hear themselves is something to loud or do they need to be turned up. Do yourself a favor and have a listen wedge set up next to you so you can cue up the mixes and hear what they are hearing. 

If you have the resources have the person that is playing too loud listen from the audience while someone else plays their rig at the same volume. If they think they can't hear themselves on stage how could anyone ever hear them when they are off stage, they probably won't believe when they say they are too loud. 

We seat 1700 and I still have days where I need to go put the band in line and tell them the drummer to take it easy.


----------

