# 7.1 side surrounds in front



## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Anyone know if this will work?

I previously gave up on the idea of achieving 7.1 in my living room due to the fact im only about 3 feet from the rear wall and cannot get a sufficient distance between the side and rear surrounds to have any real benefits.

However I have recently visited a high end home cinema where they had the side surrounds placed a few feet in front of my listening position and the rear surrounds in the back corners. It sounded amazing.

So I was thinking maybe this could work in my room. My surrounds are bipoles so if I placed the bipoles either side of the listening position but about 3feet in front and buy 2 direct firers and havs them in the rear corners would this work well?

At the moment my bipoles are slightly behind the listening position but the one to my left is quite close, probably about 3 feet from my left ear. If I switched to the above suggestion with the direct firers in the corners that rear left channel will be about 4.5 feet away giving more breathing space for the soundstage.

I cant move the couch any further forward than 3 feet from the rear wall as my pj screen is too big, I will get neck ache if I do. Plus It's too costly to downsize the screen so it's either the above layout or stick to my current 5.1 setup. 

I would love to hear your thoughts on this, the pros and cons, prefferably from people who have heard similar layouts and had actual experience as opposed to just following the standard common ideal placement recommendations.

Thanks in advance.
Marty


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## pddufrene (Mar 14, 2013)

That'll work, my room is 15x18 with the 15' side being the one my tv is on. I have my two towers on the side the tv, the next set of speakers pretty much mid way in the room, and the rear speakers in the back corner. My sofa is up against the wall so that was the only way I could do it, and you can notice a difference compared to when I had it rigged up for just 5.1. You could also put the rear speakers directly behind your seating area on some stands, I've seen people do that before as well.


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

If that speaker layout sounded amazing to you when you heard it, then it's worth a try in your room. BTW, famous audio researcher Floyd Toole prefers his surrounds forward of the listening position to increase spaciousness.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

I concur with the others. 
7.1 doesn't have more speakers to fill up a bigger space, it has more speakers which will more fully surround you with sound.
There is approximately 9-10' behind my couch, but the 7.1 rear speakers are only 3-4' behind couch.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

I wouldn't put surround speakers forward of the primary listening position. That said, try it out and if you like how it sounds, go with it.


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## Harro (Oct 14, 2013)

I have had this setup until my upgrade and can only say to point the side surrounds toward the MLP when you move them forward.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

It all boils down to what you like. The reasoning behind having a dipole speaker directly opposite the listen area is so that your siting in the speakers null and hearing the sound moving up the wall without having sound directed at you. Direct radiator surrounds may sound better just forward or just backward of the listen area for just the same reason, so you can't localize here the sound is coming from


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks for your replies 



pddufrene said:


> That'll work, my room is 15x18 with the 15' side being the one my tv is on. I have my two towers on the side the tv, the next set of speakers pretty much mid way in the room, and the rear speakers in the back corner. My sofa is up against the wall so that was the only way I could do it, and you can notice a difference compared to when I had it rigged up for just 5.1. You could also put the rear speakers directly behind your seating area on some stands, I've seen people do that before as well.


I gather it's a positive difference you noticed?



sdurani said:


> If that speaker layout sounded amazing to you when you heard it, then it's worth a try in your room. BTW, famous audio researcher Floyd Toole prefers his surrounds forward of the listening position to increase spaciousness.


I don't suppose you have any links to this I can have a look at?



gdstupak said:


> I concur with the others.
> 7.1 doesn't have more speakers to fill up a bigger space, it has more speakers which will more fully surround you with sound.
> There is approximately 9-10' behind my couch, but the 7.1 rear speakers are only 3-4' behind couch.


That is kind of what I experienced at the demo and the room was certainly filled with sound :T



Harro said:


> I have had this setup until my upgrade and can only say to point the side surrounds toward the MLP when you move them forward.


Well I'm in luck as the bipoles I have

http://www.focal.com/en/profile-archives/26-profile-sr-908-3544058693618.html

fire out diagonally either side of the speaker, so the rear firing tweeters will be aimed directly towards the listening position :bigsmile:



Andre said:


> It all boils down to what you like. The reasoning behind having a dipole speaker directly opposite the listen area is so that your siting in the speakers null and hearing the sound moving up the wall without having sound directed at you. Direct radiator surrounds may sound better just forward or just backward of the listen area for just the same reason, so you can't localize here the sound is coming from


So are you basically saying that it doesn't matter precisely where they are placed as the surround sound field is diffused anyway and will still do the job regardless?

The thing is it sounded great in the demo I saw but these were extremely high end speakers which were direct firing sats but acted like a dipole as they were only partially enclosed

http://www.steinwaylyngdorf.com/products/s-series-speakers

So my concern is that just because those speakers worked well in that position, mine may not be so flexible. My other concern is if I'm playing 5.1 through this layout, the fact that the surrounds are mixed with them being either to the side or slightly behind. Would it not sound strange to have say for example, a jet fly over you but the sound goes across the front of you? I know the 5.1 mix gets matrixed into the 2 rear channels in a 7.1 array but from what I remember years and years ago when I had a 7.1 sub/sat system, the side surrounds sounded more prominent than the rears, hardly anything was coming out of them.....I could have remembered this incorrectly though :scratch: so the rear surrounds may not balance out the front to rear fly over effect?

I seem to remember Sir Terrence explaining how he mixed the 7.1 on certain films and he sat dead central in the room with all the speakers equidistant from him, 2 to the side and 2 to the rear, so this would indicate that I may end up hearing it, not as intended.

Marty


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Are you running any type of room correction? Audessy..etc. IF so, it seems logical that the software would compensate for where the speakers are in relation to the seating position, so moving them maynot make much of a difference. just a thought, though never tried moving my surrounds and running Audessy over againt to see if it makes a differnece


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Yes, I have Mcaac which is similar.

Room correction will account for delays, db levels and standing wave issues, it wont change the fact that the surround sound effects, I assume, will be still potentially be coming from the front. I think the only saving grace will be if the rear surrounds are going to output similar effects at similar db levels when matrixing the sound, which should create a more accurate soundfield.

Marty


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Ok, I just re-read the original. Are you side surrounds Bipole or Dipole? I have never used Bipoles for a side surround, I always considered Dipole better for that area (to me the sound seems to travel along the wall). Bipoles or direct ratiators for the back since you want to direct those to the listening area


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Andre said:


> Ok, I just re-read the original. Are you side surrounds Bipole or Dipole? I have never used Bipoles for a side surround, I always considered Dipole better for that area (to me the sound seems to travel along the wall). Bipoles or direct ratiators for the back since you want to direct those to the listening area


They are bipoles, so the spread out a diffused soundfield.

Marty


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## JimShaw (Apr 30, 2012)

Here's what I tried last year with in-ceiling speakers, not floor speakers.

I have a 7.3 in-ceiling system. Five SpeakerCraft AIM8 Fives and two TIME5's which are used a Wides. I have always believed: _He who dies with the most speakers in the ceiling wins._

Like you, I have a wall directly behind my couch. The surrounds are in a ten foot high ceiling to my left and right about three feet from the back wall.

As a test, I installed two speakers about four feet in front of the then surrounds. I made the new speakers the surrounds and the old surrounds the surround backs. I had Audyssey calibrate. I watched the Blus that I always used to sound test. 

It was bad. I pulled the speakers out of the ceiling and sold them on eBay and went back to what I had.

Right now, I am considering adding a surround back between the left and right surrounds and bounce off the back wall. I don't expect any difference in sound quality and I do not think it will be as bad as what I previously mentioned. But what the hey, one has to keep trying.


m


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Ever tried listening to the bipoles on the wall behind you vice on the sides? Honestly I would move the bipoles to the back and get some dipoles for the sides. Otherwise its time to experiment with placement and some with some directs in the rear, honestly I have no clue what will sound better in your room. I will bow out, happy fiddling


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

I wouldn't place the side speakers too far in front of listening position, even if that meant there wasn't going to be much distance between the side and rear speakers. Experiment!
I don't know what your plans were for distance between the two rear speakers, but most recommendations is that they are not far apart, usually ending up much closer together than the side speakers are.

Check out the layout recommendations from Dolby and THX....

Dolby guide:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/setup/connection-guide/home-theater-speaker-guide/index.html

THX guide:
http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

I was advised by the installer to have them in the rear corners, which would probably put them at a good position, i tried to have rears at the recommended angle but the fact is it doesnt work unless you sit dead central, which not many people have that luxury. Its a 2 seater couch with my wife and i sitting each end, we found that we each had a speaker firing at the back of our heads. So I am certain for 7.1 the directs in the corner are in the best position, its just whether or not the bipoles will work in the forward position that is key to whether this layout will sound right.

Marty


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Andre said:


> Ever tried listening to the bipoles on the wall behind you vice on the sides?


Yeah but it sounded disjointed from the front soundstage, I found in a 5.1 array bipoles sound best to the sides but slightly behind so you have one of the tweeters firing at you.

Marty


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

My dealer is lending me 2 speakers to try out, sadly the focal profiles are no longer available, apart from in the U.S. but sadly they wont ship over to the UK so I will have to make do with the focal Aria range.

This way I can be sure it sounds right before buying, it doesn't look like too many people feel it wont sound right so it's looking good so far  

Marty


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## DocFJ (Apr 17, 2013)

I have two rows of seating, and the side surrounds are situated between the two rows in the ceiling, so the speakers sit about 3 feet in front of anyone sitting in the back row. Then the rear speakers are in the back wall. While the sound is certainly better from the front row with everything behind the listener, there is still a nice enveloping field of sound when sitting in the back row. And these are NOT high-end speakers, but they sound great to me. If I had only a single row of seats, I would have the surrounds slightly above and behind the listener, or if I could get them far enough from the listener's ears, directly next to the listener at ear level, but I'd want them at least 5 feet away or so. If the issue is having the speaker too close to the listener, so that they are hearing sound from the direction of the speaker rather than a field of sound, then moving the surrounds forward to get more distance would probably improve the sound quite a bit. :huh:


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

DocFJ said:


> I have two rows of seating, and the side surrounds are situated between the two rows in the ceiling, so the speakers sit about 3 feet in front of anyone sitting in the back row. Then the rear speakers are in the back wall. While the sound is certainly better from the front row with everything behind the listener, there is still a nice enveloping field of sound when sitting in the back row. And these are NOT high-end speakers, but they sound great to me. If I had only a single row of seats, I would have the surrounds slightly above and behind the listener, or if I could get them far enough from the listener's ears, directly next to the listener at ear level, but I'd want them at least 5 feet away or so. If the issue is having the speaker too close to the listener, so that they are hearing sound from the direction of the speaker rather than a field of sound, then moving the surrounds forward to get more distance would probably improve the sound quite a bit. :huh:


Thanks, sounds like it works well for you  

I think the main thought is will it sound better than the 5.1 setup I have now, with the bipole surrounds above and slightly behind me. It has to be a worthwile improvement. I have actually tried this layout quite a while back but with the couch in the middle of the room, it sounded amazing, a massive improvement on 5.1 but not practical having the couch there. So its just whether it will sound just as good with the couch about 4 feet further back, never thought to try that at the time.

Your findings suggest not quite as good but would you say it's still better to have 7.1 with the non ideal placement of side speakers in front than 5.1 in the ideal placement (like I have now).

Marty


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## DocFJ (Apr 17, 2013)

marty1 said:


> Your findings suggest not quite as good but would you say it's still better to have 7.1 with the non ideal placement of side speakers in front than 5.1 in the ideal placement (like I have now).


I think if you can afford the upgrade, 7.1 will be a big improvement even with the side surrounds in a less-than-ideal position. I am flat-out amazed by the seamless sound of 7.1 after having had 5.1 for the past 15 years.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks Doc

Marty


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## DocFJ (Apr 17, 2013)

Let us know how it turns out.


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