# HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player



## Sonnie

Let's take a poll on these formats.

Are you going to buy a player for HD in the next year or so?

Does is matter to you which format you use?

If it does matter, which format would you prefer?

You can choose more than one option... your votes will be public!


I voted that I am undecided for now. I hate to spend 500 bucks when I can only imagine better and less expensive players will be available within 6 months or so. However... I'm dying to have one and if I get the urge, I may splurge!


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## Exocer

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Good poll question!
I'll definitely be waiting for the second and third generation units. Prices by then should be more conservative, bugs/issues should for the most part be resolved by then. This also gives me time to focus on other parts of my system like getting a new TV :laugh:


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## Ayreonaut

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I can't imagine buying a one format player and being unable to watch videos that have only been released in the other format. :rant: I'll either have to get a dual format player, one of each  , or wait until one format dies. :devil:


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## toecheese

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Blu-ray is the better technology- from a technology standpoint. So was betabax, so we'll see.

Chances are, I'm going to get a PS3 to use as my Bluray player (not because I own a PS, but because it'll be cheap)


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## Ayreonaut

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



toecheese said:


> ...but because it'll be cheap)


$599. Nothing to sneeze at.


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## kingkip

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

For me it is like DVD-A vs SACD. Both good formats, but not worth buying two separate components to listen to. Too many interconnects, too much confusion as to which disk where. My wife would kill me as she can't seem to figure the easy stuff out as is. A good universal however makes life better IMO.

Same rules apply here. I am not about to go slapping on stickers to my components and disks so that my wife can just match the pictures to the player and then try to figure out how to make the stuff turn on. 

I am lazy and I like things easy.


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## toecheese

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



Ayreonaut said:


> $599. Nothing to sneeze at.


Yeah, but what are players going to cost? The 'base' PS3 is $499 anyway.

This page has a good description of the PS3 (again, I don't own a console- other than a Sega Dreamcast) and its potential as a player: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-6070342.html

Here's a Pioneer standalonee player for $1800.

http://ces.engadget.com/2006/01/04/pioneer-bdp-hd1-blu-ray-player-coming-in-may/


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## FlashJim

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I'm waiting to see which format wins, pretty much. I'm holding back for a while.


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## rcarlton

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I think HD-DVD may win out...first out of the box, reasonably priced movies, reasonably priced and versatile players, plus name recognition. People know what a DVD is. Blu-ray??? They don't even spell blue right!:sarcastic:


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## Josuah

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

On the other hand, it seems that trying to use the Toshiba player is like using a 9600bps modem. As for pricing, I think I read somewhere that when redbook CDs first came out the price for a CD player in today's dollars was $1000.

And in my opinion, I don't think the movies or players are priced (for either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray) for widespread adoption yet. The hardware I can understand being expensive. But the software is too expensive. I only buy DVDs around the $10 mark. I'll only buy high-definition discs around the $20 mark. And I expect my $20 threshold to drop once we've hit mainstream sales. There's a huge markup on $20 DVDs right now anyway. The publishers are looking at the high-def stuff as a way to get around the loss-leader sales of DVDs that are currently happening right now. And pushing out download services that are priced too high on purpose, to ensure they still get their high margins off DVD sales.

The other thing I'm waiting for is a way to not have to deal with the stupid copy-protection restrictions. I'm still not sure what the deal is going to be with computers, because existing computer hardware does not have HDCP support with HDMI connectors. Only DVI connectors with no HDCP support. And the next generation of computer displays are moving towards a new connection type and not HDMI (HDMI's cable technical requirements and HDCP implementation details are annoying to deal with, so that's probably a good thing).


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## toecheese

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



Josuah said:


> And pushing out download services that are priced too high on purpose, to ensure they still get their high margins off DVD sales.


I'm a little off-topic here, but I've got to disagree with this statement. 

There's nothing cheaper to the studios than to release movies via download. With a physical DVD, there's the production costs, media costs, distribution, retail profit, etc. eating away at the bottom line.

In a fit of irony, one studio is now using bittorrent to allow downloads of their DRM movies- same price.. but you're using your own upstream to help them download it to other people.

IMHO anyone who downloads a DRM movie- at the same price as a physical disk- is deficient in a lot of ways.


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## Josuah

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I guess I wasn't clear. The point is that from a technical and financial perspective, releasing movies for Internet distribution is even cheaper (once you've got the infrastructure and system in place: one time costs) than replicating and distributing DVDs. But they are deliberately pricing it too high because they don't want to pass those cost savings down to customers at the expense of their own profits and because it's a distribution method that they are not comfortable with.

The DVD sales business is huge for them, with high margins (lost sometimes due to loss-leader sales at places like Wal-Mart and Target), and a business they are now comfortable with. They want to keep things this way for as long as possible. As you said, there's no compelling reason to purchase off one of their download services because the price is too high for the value you're getting, as the value is considerably less than the value of a DVD which can be found for less in many cases. What I'm saying is this was done deliberately.


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## Guest

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



FlashJim said:


> I'm waiting to see which format wins, pretty much. I'm holding back for a while.


Then you're going to be waiting a LLOONNGG time! How long did it take for VHS to "win"? 10 years?


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## Guest

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I can't change my vote? Didn't realize it was multiple selection.


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## Sonnie

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I don't think so. I looked at editing it but I don't see anywhere to void the vote and let you start over or anyway to add you name to another. I'll check in the admin control and see if there is something I can do.


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## Ktulu

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I'm a current owner of a Toshiba HD-A1 and serveral HD-DVD discs. No preference for a "winner" but I wouldn't want my investment in HD-DVD content to become worthless.


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## Guest

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I'm perfectly happy to sit on the sidelines and let HD and Blu-Ray duke it out! I got my Denon 756s Universal Player with HDMI, Up-Converting, DVD-A and SACD and I am happy as a clam, thank you very much!


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## Guest

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I do not currently own either so all of the following is based off of reviews or message boards that I have read. Who knows what will happen in the future, but looking at the current hardware and movies, HD-DVD is a pretty clear winner. The HD-A1 is half the cost of the Blu-Ray players, and I haven't seen a single review of a Blu-Ray player that wasn't disappointing. On the other hand, except for the slow response, the majority of reviews of HD-DVD have been positive. I have read uncomfirmed reports that there are picture quality issues with the Blu-Ray players themselves, but until the higher capacity Blu-Ray discs are released, it's not possible to do a proper review of the players. Whatever happens in the future, I think it's pretty clear which technology is in the lead right now.

As Bobgpsr pointed out below, I was wrong in my description of the video decoding hardware of the HDA1. I have removed those comments so nobody gets confused.

Lastly, on top of being able to play HD-DVDs the HD-A1 is an excellent upconverting player for SD discs, rivaling the best SD players on the market. So I will be buying a Toshiba HD-A1 in the near future.

-Mike
"You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing."


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## bobgpsr

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



ironhead1230 said:


> ...The next gen players will probably have specialized chips to decode the video and not a general purpose chip like the PIV..


FYI

The Toshiba/RCA HD DVD player does use a specialized chip to decode the video (a Broadcom BCM7411):

Broadcom Announces Next-Generation Advanced Video Compression Chip Supporting the H.264 Standard for High Definition Consumer Video Applications

its the audio that uses general purpose DSP's (4 Analog Device SHARCs). The Pentium in the player is used for the iHD menuing. A lot goes on in this thingy :meter: 

Bob


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## MrPorterhouse

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I guess you could say I'm waiting for second or third gen players, but I do plan on getting a PS3 to venture into the Blu. At this point, the future is unclear, but marketing, industry volume and support are leaning towards Blu-ray.


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## azjimmy

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Same goes for me. I'll jump on the PS3 somtime next year after the first price break.
I have never been a "bleeding edge" kinda guy. Got my first surround 4 years ago, first big screen 2.5 years ago and my first pro-scan dvd a little over a year and a half ago. I still don't have HD:yikes: I'm a patient man.:laugh: 

Jim


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## Vader

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Well, three months ago, I voted that the inevitable winner would be Blu Ray, and that I would not touch HD until a winner emerged, or we were into the second or third generation of players. Well..... "My Name is Derek, and I am an AV-a-holic." I just broke down and bought a Toshiba HD-A1 (haven't tried it out yet, just set it up). The way the Blu Ray camp is messing things up at almost every turn now makes that format look more and more like vapor-ware. It is a case, IMHO, of the tortoise (HD-DVD) and the hare (Blu Ray): while the hare will explode out of the starting gate, it will soon tire and fall over out of exhaustion. Meanwhile, the tortoise has held the same slow, steady, consistent pace, and will eventually overtake the hare (who's over-confidence was the end of him)..... As for swearing allegience to the BR camp, anybody want to join me in a generous helping of crow?


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## norpus

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



nobbie said:


> I'm perfectly happy to sit on the sidelines and let HD and Blu-Ray duke it out! I got my Denon 756s Universal Player with HDMI, Up-Converting, DVD-A and SACD and I am happy as a clam, thank you very much!



Mmm I have a denon universal too, but my HDA1 blows it away with ease. Even tho it was more exxy to import the HDA1 to Oz, it was worth it for half the price of the sd universal street here. Both are keepers btw as I still like the odd multichannel music disc too, and the denon has to be used for my region 4 sddvd discs
But if you haven't tried an HDDVD on your big screen yet, please do. It is very very nice.
And yes, when BR pull their act together I can easily see myself owning one of those too (the price willl not be so ridiculous by then and the players will be better - give it 6 mths)


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## Sonnie

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I have to say I agree... my Denon 2900 and 3910, neither are up to the pic quality of the A1... SD DVDs look great, better than they've ever looked... and of course HD look even better.


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## Adz

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I bought the HDA1, played around with it for a few months and then sold it. I thought the picture was good in most cases but I wasn't blown away by it just yet. At the time I had to use the multichannel outs for sound and that was not impressive at all. I'd like to try a Blue Ray next over HDMI within the next few weeks.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

 Judging from what I saw in this article, the Average Joe consumer is pretty disgusted with the whole thing and more oft than not opting for neither one.

Regards,
Wayne


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## AverageJoe

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Judging from what I saw in this article, the *Average Joe *consumer is pretty disgusted with the whole thing and more oft than not opting for neither one.



Hey... I resemble that remark. 

Actually, I tend to agree. From conversations with friends and family who haven't jumped on board yet, some would like to get an HD player, but the cost of choosing the "loser" is stopping them. However, _most_ of them are only vaguely aware that HD discs are available, and don't know there is a Blu-Ray/HD DVD battle going on. 

For me, the "war" is something I read about, but it has no real impact on my purchases. I bought the HDA1 when the sale price was around $400, and have about a dozen HD DVD's so far. I'm not looking to replace all my DVD's with HD versions, but I buy the more "visually stunning" releases when they become available. I figure it'll take years for a "winner" to emerge victorious, and in the meantime I can buy and enjoy a lot of HD content. If the HD DVD format is _not_ the winner, I can still watch what I have (I suppose the player may die, but I still see Betamax players for sale and how long ago did they lose _that_ war?).

Mostly, I try to get friends on MY side. I figure if everyone waits for a winner, we'll never have one. So... for those leaning towards Blu-ray, I tell them they should wait :heehee: - For the others, I may buy them all an HD DVD movie for Christmas. Maybe they'll get something to play it on :devil: .


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## bobgpsr

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

^^^ But hey, even though I have to use "backups" since I use a component video connection, the Toshiba HD DVD player does a super job of upconverting SD DVD's to 1080i. :bigsmile: 

Bob


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## ACGREEN

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I'll wait for a high-capacity player (400 disc). Bt the time these come out, one format should be the dominate disc.


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## wbassett

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I'm happy to say I'm officially format neutral now and have both!


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## khellandros66

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Before I buy another player I will hold off for the 2nd gen Combo players at this point. Sony and BDA better get there act together with the BD-J1.1 and the spec for DD+, DTSMA/HR and Dolby TrueHD over HDMI 1.2 in PCM or HDMI 1.3.

~Bobby


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## spyboy

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Is anyone interested in the Toshiba HD A2 for $299.99 with 3 free HD DVDs? If you look around some, you can find this deal. I may end up getting in on this deal myself. So far, it is the best deal I have found on a Toshiba HD A2.

All the Best


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## mike c

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I don't like buying a format that doesn't have ALL the movies I want. so it's either I wait til both players become cheap, a dual format player (with all channels output) comes out, or one of them gets ALL the movies available.


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## bsoko2

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

The best HD DVD player is the Toshibia HD AX2. It is the newest and can be had for around $530 or so on Amazon. It has all the goodies and a new upconversion chip that makes regular DVD in some cases look like 1080. For the price it can't be beat and Home Theater mag in testing against Bluray and the new LP player rated it #1. Watching my old DVD is such a new experience and the HD movies are excellent in sound and picture.


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## Steven Midkiff

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Currently, Toshiba HD-A2 is $250 at Costco here is Washington.....


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## wbassett

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I have the A2 and a Bluray player, and we tend to use the A2 99% of the time. 

My brother was up recently and he has an HD DVD player as well. He was very impressed with the A2's performance and PQ when mated to a Sony SXRD. Actually Casino Royal and the PS3 blew him away, but we both know that was a showcase BD movie and was going to have a top notch transfer. The Lake House was nothing really special and in fact the BD version really didn't look all that different from the SDVD version upconverted on the A2.

We also watched Madmax The Road Warrior in HD (as well as tons of others) and the transfer is the biggest factor in the end for either format, well in my opinion  I can't comment on Bluray players and upconversion because the PS3 doesn't upconvert. I would love to see the XA2 in action. I am thoroughly pleased with the A2 and can't imagine what things would look like even better!


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## bsoko2

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I bought the HD AX2 last month and it is a excellent player. Even the dvd upscale is near 1080 and it makes watching my dvd collection a must all over again!!


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## wbassett

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



bsoko2 said:


> I bought the HD AX2 last month and it is a excellent player. Even the dvd upscale is near 1080 and it makes watching my dvd collection a must all over again!!


I totally agree, and like I said I don't even have the XA2, just the A2. 

I actually have a note book and I take notes of every movie I watch, BD, HD DVD, or SDVD. I have been paying particular attention to Standard Definition DVDs and noting the PQ. Some are incredible, and a couple of times I actually forgot I was watching standard definition. If you have a copy of Walk in the Clouds, throw that in and check it out sometime. There are scenes that look 3D, and at the end when the vineyard is burning it looks stunning... and this is a standard definition disc! Of course there are other discs that don't look that good, but I have also seen BD and HD DVDs that look worse that others too.

I am also a big Cary Grant fan. Try putting in an old black and white flick that has a good transfer sometime and watch it upconverted. 

I hope the prices keep dropping. Next year I will probably buy an XA2 or the next gen version and move my A2 to the bedroom.


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## bsoko2

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Amazon.com has the AX2 sometimes as low as $529 (that's what I bought it at) and the price varies from day to day. Also, you get the HD DVD offer from Toshiba until the end of July 07.


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## wbassett

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Yeah that is a great price... problem is I just spent a boat load of money on a Sony 55" SXRD HDTV, a Bluray player, and the A2, not to mention the obligatory high def movies that I had to buy 

I'm also remodeling our house, saving for a colorimeter or full spectrophotometer, and a new projector is in there somewhere too  ... so the XA2 will have to wait just a little longer.


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## planet10

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Like DVD-A vrs SACD the big manufactures are beating up the end-user with another format war. I'll either wait until the dust settles or until dual format players are common and the format becomes moot.

At this point, i have to get a widescreen TV before i could even consider a player -- and who knows, a 3rd contender is sneaking up behind these 2 -- HD over the internet. We have seen huge gains in bandwidth to the home in recent years and i don't see that slowing down anytime soon. If you look at cable & satelitte as internet delivery vehicles (my hi-speed comes in on the same cable as HD would from Shaw) it is happening already. A friend recently got an HD TV and the digital cable box, and commented that he might never use his DVD player again (and then i pointed out that he would still be borrowing from my large collection of DVDs)

dave


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## Vader

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



> A friend recently got an HD TV and the digital cable box, and commented that he might never use his DVD player again (and then i pointed out that he would still be borrowing from my large collection of DVDs)


Remember that a lot of digital artifacting present in HD broadcasts are not present in the HD-DVD (or Blu-Ray) counterpart. I have read many times how comparisons between the two always favor the hardware by a wide margin. And this disparity will only increase as VOD enters the mainstream: look to the state of audio, and how the general public has become satisfied with **** quality in the name of the convenience of downloading. Case in point, the travisty known as the "iPod", with music so compressed, _I_ sound better singing in the shower than a professional artist does in a hyper-compressed MP3 (to get the full impact of that statement, ask my wife how bad I sound). But, since you can hold how many thousand songs on this tiny little box with speakers you stick in your ear (and destroy your hearing with), the huge drop in quality is entirely secondary.


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## planet10

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



Vader said:


> Case in point, the travisty known as the "iPod", with music so compressed


The iPod is only a travesty if the end user is an idiot or deaf, or just doesn't know enuff to use the iPod with lossless formats. Excepting that the smaller units aren't large enuff to support a physically large enuff cap to give really good bass response the sonics of an iPod are pretty good with lossless files (and a big iPod -- see below -- can produce sonics that rival the best hardware players)

The iPod -- with decent material stored on it -- is a WAY better portable player than a Sony walkman or discman ever was. And most importantly a whole new generation of kids are becoming music addicts. Only a small portion of those need to be turned from the dark side (ie MP3s) and onto higer rez files to ensure a continued supply of hifi aficiandos to fuel the higher end market.

Calling an iPod a travisty is just short-sighted and a failure to look at the evolution of an audio-phile. The iPod is simply the expression of this generations walkman or discman, and it is our responsibility to educate & expose the iPod user to its full capability. Anyone who doesn't embrace the possibilities is shooting himself in the foot.

Consider that a "big iPod" (best ememplified by a MacMini loaded with lossless files & connected to an external Firewire DAC0 can outperform a CD-player costing much more. Those same Firewire DACs often have a hiRez ADC and will become the prime source for higher rez files (either made directly by the artist or ripped from vinyl with a good TT with a good phono pre). 

Full rez files are starting to become available for download (i was disipointed that Apple only upgraded their service to 256k AACs -- but that is extremely market & bandwidth driven), As end users we just have to keep voting with our dollars.

dave


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## Vader

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



> The iPod is only a travesty if the end user is an idiot...


I agree completely, but the key phrase is "...if the end user is an idiot". Keep in mind that we live in a world where the clearasil crowd rules, with car subwoofers set 10-20dB above where they should be, yielding what are, essentiailly "one-note wonders", while at the same time are completely clueless about what constitutes audio (or video) quality. The travisty is in the open floodgates of hyper-compressed **** that is gaining a foothold as the new audio quality standard (shudder....)



> ...with decent material stored on it...


Precisely my point. The vast majority of music downloads are of the "****-quality-subterranean-bit-rate" type. Given that double-digit AV IQs seem to be prevelant in the general populace, I don't have a whole lot of hope that will change, and will, in fact, get worse.



> Consider that a "big iPod" (best ememplified by a MacMini loaded with lossless files & connected to an external Firewire DAC0 can outperform a CD-player costing much more. Those same Firewire DACs often have a hiRez ADC and will become the prime source for higher rez files (either made directly by the artist or ripped from vinyl with a good TT with a good phono pre)


Again, excellent point, but the thing is that only a tiny fraction of the general populace has an AV IQ in the triple digits. We are the exception, not the rule.... and are vastly outnumbered... For everybody like us out there who know what they are doing (to be fair, I am at the shallow end of the AV-savy pool), there are a couple of hundred people who are blissfully AV-ignorant. Remember, this is guided by the swings in the market, and a whole lot of villages somewhere are mourning the loss of their idiots (who also vote with their wallets).

That being said, I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong..


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## johnathan

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I presently own a Toshiba XA2 and am going to buy a Blu Ray in the future. I love HD material.Especially on my new JVC RS1. I own 1000 SD DVD's also and 32 HD DVD's . I wish their was one format from the beginning but now it has driven down the prices.So it has been good and bad for the end user. Johnathan


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## planet10

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



Vader said:


> I agree completely, but the key phrase is "...if the end user is an idiot". Keep in mind that we live in a world where the clearasil crowd rules... Given that double-digit AV IQs seem to be prevelant in the general populace... only a tiny fraction of the general populace has an AV IQ in the triple digits. We are the exception, not the rule.... and are vastly outnumbered...:


In other words nothing has changed from a historical perspectiv, just the medium. That there are way more people using iPods means there will be a propotionatly larger number of individuals that can be "saved". More saved means more money gets pumped intot he industry which hopefully gives more & better choices for everything...

My conclusion thereby ... the iPod is a good thing indeed.

BTW. statistically exactly half of the populace has a double-digit IQ. Many of those, if exposed, can appreciate better quaility sound.

dave


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## Vader

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



> ...just the medium


... and the ease at which it has become common among J6P ... though we can blame marketing for that one...



> statistically exactly half of the populace has a double-digit IQ. Many of those, if exposed, can appreciate better quaility sound.


Dave, you owe me a new keyboard (I just spit my coke on this one I was laughing so hard)...


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## planet10

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

And a question. I'm more into 2-channel hifi than HT (my HT is 2.1), but isn't the audio on DVDs usually MP3? What about the new formats? Shouldn't we all be lobbying for Meridian Lossless Packing?

dave

"Friends don't let friends listen to MP3s -- bumper sttckers should be issued"


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## John Simpson

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I'm still very excited about the possibilities of the HD formats, particularly the "uncompressed" digital sound. Owning a PS3, we've started to convert our library to Blu-Ray, but I won't be buying a dedicated player until someone like Denon releases a high-end player (much like the DVD-5000).

Aren't statistics showing Blu-Ray to be outselling HD-DVD by 2:1? Everyone seems to be selling a different story...


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## Vader

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



> Aren't statistics showing Blu-Ray to be outselling HD-DVD by 2:1?


Those "statistics" are from the BR camp, and are assuming an inception of the beginning of this year. In reality, BR's inception was nearly six months earlier, when the disastrous Samsung hit the streets. Apparently, the BR camp thinks that this is the third grade, and they can simply yell "Do over!" when they screw up. Also, consider that when counting _stand alone_ players only (ie. no PS3), HD-DVD is wiping the floor with BR...

In the final analysis, neither format will come out on top for several years, and the entire thing is in real danger of becoming a niche format anyway (which is fine with me; that way the content will be geared more towards the enthusiast - like LD was - and not the brain-dead general public) Chances are that dual format players will become the norm, which is what I'm waiting for (c'mon Denon!)


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## bobgpsr

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



planet10 said:


> ...isn't the audio on DVDs usually MP3? What about the new formats?


Traditional DVD normally has Dolby Digital 5.1 at 448 kbps. dts 5.1 was first at 1509 kbps on DVDs but then to make more space they started to go half-bitrate 768 kbps dts :sad:.

On Blu-ray advanced audio codecs were not required so most titles used space wasting linear PCM for lossless when they could fit it.

HD DVD mandated that Dolby Digital Plus (capable of using 3.0 mbps and 7.1 chans - but normal max used is 1.5 mbps, although Warner still uses 640 kbps DD+). Also mandated that 2 channel Dolby TrueHD (which uses MLP) lossless be supported by all HD DVD players. Since then all HD DVD players now voluntarily support 5.1 TrueHD. TrueHD can use up to 7.1 channels. HD DVD can also support linear PCM but I have seen it as 2 channel only on a few concert HD DVDs. 

HD DVD and Blu-ray mandate player support of legacy 5.1 Dolby Digital (448 kpbs on HD DVD and 640 kbps on Blu-ray). Also they mandate player support of 1509 kbps 5.1 dts.

Up to 7.1 channel Lossy dts-HD HR and lossless dts-HD MA are also allowed (not mandated) on both HD DVD and Blu-ray.


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## planet10

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Some of that is over my head... but isn't DD 5.1 the same (or a variation) of AAC that Apple ships at iTunes?

I recall at an AES convention in San Fransisco where Dolby proudly rolled out AAC. It did not impress (AAC vrs before). The construction tech in their theatre was impressive thou. On the other hand i couldn't get very excited about the sound system.

PCM isn't a waste if they have space to burn. But putting lossless unpacked 16/44 PCM on where they could put packed 24/96 (or better yet 24/192) is.

dave


----------



## planet10

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



planet10 said:


> statistically exactly half of the populace has a double-digit IQ. Many of those, if exposed, can appreciate better quaility sound.


Actually that isn't quite true. You would have to either have to count half of the population with exactly 100 IQ as double digit, or just discard everyone with exactly 100 IQ.

dave


----------



## bobgpsr

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



planet10 said:


> Some of that is over my head... but isn't DD 5.1 the same (or a variation) of AAC that Apple ships at iTunes?


I recall that Audio Codec 3 (AC-3) is another name for Dolby Digital 5.1. It is not as advanced as AAC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC3 

Advanced Audio Codec (AAC) uses MPEG-2 Part 7 and/or MPEG-4 Part 3 and is an improvement over MP3.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding


----------



## planet10

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

In other words, we are complaining about MP3s (used in its broader sense of "all lossy audio") on iPods and living with it on DVDs 

So one of the reasons to look forward to the "blue" media will be some titles with uncompromised audio?

dave


----------



## Steven Midkiff

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Casual revelation while I was at the local Best Buy last night purchasing HD titles- Me: So, how are there things selling? Which format is winning here? Head sales person: Well, the BluRay machines are very popluar, being part of PS3's...I interrupt: No, I mean which stand alone machines are selling better? Head sales person: oh, well HD are prices so much better, I'd say they sell 2 to 1 over BluRay...


----------



## Vader

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



> In other words, we are complaining about MP3s (used in its broader sense of "all lossy audio") on iPods and living with it on DVDs


Except that the latest download from Madonna would have a bitrate that is only a small fraction of even standard Dolby Digital...



> PCM isn't a waste if they have space to burn.


True, but the Blu folks have been trumpeting their "space advantage" from the beginning (their _real_ launch last summer/fall, not their "do-over" joke in January), and yet have been squandering that advantage (between that, and MPEG-2 - which looks no better than MPEG-4 or VC-1, and in some cases, worse - such as the first Blu-releases). Now that Disney and Fox are using modern codecs (both audio and video), Blu might start living up to its potential. Not like Sony needs any help to look like a bunch of morons, but when the other studios get over their copy protection paranioa and start giving us advanced codecs across the board, with the space used to the best advantage, maybe an exec at Sony will grow a brain cell...



> So one of the reasons to look forward to the "blue" media will be some titles with uncompromised audio?


... or Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD, both of which are lossless. While there are some that would say LPCM sounds better than either of these, I would bet that, in a double blind test, the split would be right down the middle. Statistically, this would be consitant with a coin toss. Same way the higher bandwidth of Blu supposadly yields a better picture than HD-DVD... given the same title on both formats, even allowing for a remaster to let the film breath a little more on the Blu (assuming that they don't waste the extra space on uncompressed sound), a double blind test would, again, be a toss-up...


----------



## gsmollin

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I bought an HD-A2. I have played a few HD titles on it on my 720p front projector and 78 inch screen, and they look good. I have also played HD Planet Earth, and that is AWESOME. I can see that the high definition formats are stressing the productions. We are seeing mediocre results in high definition, because we are getting mediocre productions. I am predicting that HD/BD will remain a niche market for the near future. It is just as likely that both formats will fail, as it is that one will succeed and the other will fail. Still, I am glad I bought my player, even though it is buggy and gives me synch problems to the pj. Having the HD shows available is pretty cool, and I enjoy them.


----------



## Steven Midkiff

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I agree about the mediocre productions. I've noticed- the best SD dvd's can actually look better than poor HD dvds.
It's like they always told us- garbage in, garbage out.

You may have a point there, HB/BD might remain a niche market for a very long time.

The up-coversion on my A2 is very good. Ever so slightly better than my Oppo 981. And really good SD dvd's look great, close to the 1080i broadcasts.

With prices dropping as they are, it seems like a win/win all around for us! Just wish more studios would pay more attention to their transfers...


----------



## mak99

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Happy HD-XA1 owner since July 2006 and HD-XA2 owner since June 2007. Tried a G1 Samsung BD-P1000 earlier in the year - definitely preferred the quicker boot/load times than the XA1, but gave slight PQ advantage to the HD DVD player while A-B'ing _Phantom of the Opera_. Disc menu operation "on the fly" was MUCH easier on the HD DVD player - was very disappointed in the Sammy's operation in this arena. :thumbsdown:

Took the Sammy back to BB as didn't feel like it was worth the ~$550 open box special I bought it for. Also did not care that BD standards were continuing to evolve, with no guaranteed future of the G1 Sammy. I highly doubt that it would have become a useless brick, but Sony/BD camp just can't seem to get their act together.

FWIW, XA2 load times are much better than G1 Toshibas, so there went the Samsung's main advantage. I also do not have any experience with any other BD player besides the BD-P1000. I have read that the new BD-P1200 is well thought of, with the HQV processing and all.


----------



## Guest

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

both is the only way to go


----------



## Chance

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Using both formats here.
I am using the Xbox360 add-on drive, and a samsung blu-ray player.
I just purchased a pioneer bd-rom drive which is going to be used in my HTPC.
As well I will be connecting the xbox hd-dvd to the HTPC for decoding and playback.

Don't forget D-VHS :spend:


----------



## lvisneau

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I love both, and have both. tosh a-1 and a-2 and sony bdp-s1. both are of excellent quality (build, video and audio).


----------



## wbassett

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

I'll actually be buying a second HD DVD player soon, probably the XA2 or maybe the A35 depending on what the reviews end up looking like.


----------



## santora

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*

Until a dual format player comes out that doesn't suck (sorry LG) I won't be picking up any stand alone players. The onyl reason I jumped @ HD DVD last year was because $199 plus I have a $40 coupon and a $50 gift card. So $110 for the drive was pretty irresistible. Bot to mention - first HD DVD? Batman Begins. Wow.


----------



## rcarlton

I just ordered a HD-DVD player, should arrive first week of October. Low price, 7 movies, terrific upconverter. What's not to like?


----------



## Guest

I watch the ads almost daily and read the reports. I hear, if not mistaken, that Venturer has or will have an HD DVD for 199.00 at Walmart.

Still want to see those prices dropped and they really need to put their heads together (both sides) to come up with a Win Win solution instead of the greed aproach of "Me being the solitary king of the hill."
Perhaps a unit that will do both/all formats as well as CD and regular DVD etc.... If they were really concerned for the customer this mess would not have happended it the first place.

So I'm keeping my hand at the table before stepping forward with that hard earned cash.

jtmj
:hush:


----------



## MatrixDweller

Honestly, when the prices come down around the $150 mark for HD-DVD it would be silly not to buy one if you are looking for a new player. The HD-DVD players upconvert DVDs, play CDs and play HD media of course. An upconverting DVD player might cost $50 less, but the extra you pay is worth it to play HD-DVDs. This Christmas, or shortly there after a clear winner will probably emerge.


----------



## JDRoberts

I jumped in a couple months ago with a HDDVD player.

tosh XA2 at a real good price.

45 movies later,I couldn't be happier.


----------



## Vurbano

I own both formats. I have one of the first HD-A1's shipped and recently bought the PS3. Your poll needs another option. LOL


----------



## Sonnie

You are right... I added that option. :T


----------



## tonyvdb

bsoko2 said:


> There is no Blu-Ray player that can upconvert as well as the AX2.


:dunno: The Samsung BD-P BluRay line is said to have the best upconversion available because it uses the HQV Raon chip. I do agree that the Toshiba does a good job but I have both and the Samsung has a slight edge.


----------



## Richard W. Haines

Just had a phone conversation with an LA associate. They're currently developing an 8K scanner
which might render 4K obsolete just as the 2K scanner is although it's still used by some.
I guess the bottom line is that there will be no 'permanent' digital format. For the time being
it's safe to purchase standard DVDs. When some more Blu-ray titles are available from all of the studios then I'll get one of those machines and start collecting them. Perhaps Universal will continue to support the format on a limited basis for a while along the lines of what they did with the "Animal House" release with HD DVD on one side of the disc and standard DVD on the other side.


One can see why cinemas are very reluctant to get involved with digital projection.
The few that installed the original machines (about $100,000 per projector) are stuck with the lower 2K resolution. Most new transfers are at 4K.


----------



## bsoko2

tonyvdb said:


> :dunno: The Samsung BD-P BluRay line is said to have the best upconversion available because it uses the HQV Raon chip. I do agree that the Toshiba does a good job but I have both and the Samsung has a slight edge.


Says who? Other forums agree that the BD30 is not as good at upconverting as the AX2. I looked at both on my set and the AX2 is better.

Bill


----------



## Richard W. Haines

I'm still having a problem adjusting my attitude towards home video collecting. Over the
decades, I've collected all sorts of things from silver age comic books to vintage monster magazines
to actual feature film prints in Technicolor. In each case it was a one time expenditure and
as a collection, they've gone up in value. The opposite is true for home video collecting.
It's a perpetual expediture and all of the old hardware and software is either obsolete or
of little or no value. Even within the same format, older DVDs are worthless compared to
the upgraded new transfers. For every favorite feature I'd like to own on DVD, I'll have to
keep buying it over and over again for the rest of my life in new formats and new transfers.
While the discs are individually cheap, I've ultimately spent a small fortune on them over
the decades in Betamax, VHS, Selectavision, Laserdisc and now HD DVD. It would appear
that there's no way around this. Blu-ray (derived from 4K transfers) will be around for a while and then be replaced by another higher definition format later (probably derived from 8K transfers).
It's possible that they'll add anamorphic enhancement to HD DVD 16:9 images so they can
spread out to the full CinemaScope/Panavision 2.35 ratio without any letterboxing of the image
or black pixels with an add on lens anamorphic lens to spread it out. They actually have a lens
and DLP that can do this now. 



I guess the trick is for consumers to put aside a certain percentage of their income into a 'home entertainment' category to keep up with the changes and not get angry when their current collection of movies or equipment is rendered useless. I guess if you crunch the numbers, it's still cheaper than a family going to a megaplex at $10 a person plus overpriced concessions. And unlike a cinema presentation, when you
purchase a DVD you have a copy of the film that you can watch over again...for a while.


----------



## tonyvdb

bsoko2 said:


> Says who? Other forums agree that the BD30 is not as good at upconverting as the AX2. I looked at both on my set and the AX2 is better.
> 
> Bill


The BD30 dose not use the HQV Raon chip for upconversion so that would be why.


----------



## Bob_99

Richard W. Haines said:


> I'm still having a problem adjusting my attitude towards home video collecting. Over the
> decades, I've collected all sorts of things from silver age comic books to vintage monster magazines
> to actual feature film prints in Technicolor. In each case it was a one time expenditure and
> as a collection, they've gone up in value. The opposite is true for home video collecting.
> It's a perpetual expediture and all of the old hardware and software is either obsolete or
> of little or no value. Even within the same format, older DVDs are worthless compared to
> the upgraded new transfers. For every favorite feature I'd like to own on DVD, I'll have to
> keep buying it over and over again for the rest of my life in new formats and new transfers.
> While the discs are individually cheap, I've ultimately spent a small fortune on them over
> the decades in Betamax, VHS, Selectavision, Laserdisc and now HD DVD. It would appear
> that there's no way around this. Blu-ray (derived from 4K transfers) will be around for a while and then be replaced by another higher definition format later (probably derived from 8K transfers).
> It's possible that they'll add anamorphic enhancement to HD DVD 16:9 images so they can
> spread out to the full CinemaScope/Panavision 2.35 ratio without any letterboxing of the image
> or black pixels with an add on lens anamorphic lens to spread it out. They actually have a lens
> and DLP that can do this now.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the trick is for consumers to put aside a certain percentage of their income into a 'home entertainment' category to keep up with the changes and not get angry when their current collection of movies or equipment is rendered useless. I guess if you crunch the numbers, it's still cheaper than a family going to a megaplex at $10 a person plus overpriced concessions. And unlike a cinema presentation, when you
> purchase a DVD you have a copy of the film that you can watch over again...for a while.


Very good points and I couldn't agree more although I didn't collect film, I can list marbles, bubble gum cards, golden age comics and now DVDs. Perhaps it's time to join NetFlix and let someone else worry about the format.

Bob


----------



## Sonnie

Hey guys... I moved several posts from this thread to The Official HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray Thread. 

Please remember this thread is a poll thread asking which format player you will buy. I think many of these posts were getting off track and more in line with the other thread, thus my reasons for moving them.


----------



## bsoko2

tonyvdb said:


> The BD30 dose not use the HQV Raon chip for upconversion so that would be why.


Again why do you think that the BD30 is better at upconverting then the AX2? Ax2 has the Silicon Optix Reon HQV for upconverting and the BD 30 also uses the Silicon Optix's HQV. However many reviews between the BD30 and the AX2 say that the Ax2 upconverts much clearer then the BD30.

Bill


----------



## HomeTeam

I got the Toshiba HD-A2, unfortunately not at the 99 dollar deal that Wal-Mart had, but I still got a pretty good deal on it and I've been very happy with it. Since the news of Warner's jump to Blu-Ray though, I've highly considered getting the 40 GB PS3 for the Blu-Ray player. The gaming part isn't a big deal to me (although I cannot wait until Metal Gear Solid 4 comes out), but with it being probably the most updated player out there makes it intriguing for me. 

The problem for me now is there are some discs that I'm wanting to get that are HD-DVD exclusive right now like Battlestar Galactica and Heroes season 1 DVD's, its almost inevitable at this point that they're going to be on Blu-Ray at some point. 

Either way though I don't regret the decision, I love watching them in high definition.


----------



## MatrixDweller

I'd love a format that would get rid of the optical disc all together. Flash media comes to mind. I guess the thing holding that back is backward compatibility. Discs will probably be around for quite some time because we have three generations of formats to play (CD, DVD and now BD/HD).

Richard you are right about the collecting aspect for the most part. There is a collectors market for vinyl and film, but that's because they are rare. Their condition degrades fast if care is not taken too so that adds more to the rareness of good specimens. 

The deluxe platinum collectors edition DVDs are pumped out in the millions and the demand to collect really isn't there. DVDs and their cases are pretty durable. The card paper wrapped special editions need extra care, but the standard DVD case is protected in plastic. I don't believe there is an official grading scheme for used DVDs or VHS tapes either (other than Amazon's general scheme) so that tells you something about their collectibility also.


----------



## wbassett

MatrixDweller said:


> I'd love a format that would get rid of the optical disc all together. Flash media comes to mind. I guess the thing holding that back is backward compatibility. Discs will probably be around for quite some time because we have three generations of formats to play (CD, DVD and now BD/HD).


I also mentioned memory cards as one possible evolution awhile back. It makes sense, no moving parts to wear out. When we were cable free for over three years, we used our DVD player extensively, probably more than most do and we actually burnt out the drive motor in several players. 

As far as backwards compatability... it wouldn't be hard at all with flash memory cards. Many players have built in card readers right now. Yeah that would mean there are still mechanical items being used, but let's face it, DVD is going to be around for the next decade. I'm up around 1500 SDVDs now and most of those titles aren't available in a HD format. It will be quite some time before I don't have a DVD player in my house. I may have a newer format player, but I'll still have a DVD player as part of my system.


----------



## imbeaujp

And what about downloading ?

I think that de next step will be "no media".

But it will take a couple years...


----------



## daniel

I've bought last year a really cheap dvd player. My wife didn't want us to pay much for it. Yesterday she told me that she would like to have a better one:bigsmile:. 

Since I really wouldn't like to end up with a "betamax" dvd player, is there right now any high quality hd-dvd + blue-ray player on the market ( or multi-format including hd-dvd and blue-ray).

I don't want to be one of those who will pay for their format war.


----------



## Funkmonkey

Good poll. I find it interesting that HD-DVD seems to be the preference so far, I wonder if that would change if the poll were reset post Warner's announcement. I recently purchased an Oppo 981-HD to enjoy up-scaled SD-DVD until the whole format war is resolved, recent developments seem to reinforce my early preference for Blu-Ray. Most likely I will pick up a PS-3 before I get a dedicated player though.


----------



## wbassett

Greg I think it definitely would change as far as what people are most likely going to buy now, but not necessarily for what they like.

As far as Warner, I sometimes wonder what they will think after the 4th quarter HD DVD player sales numbers are finally in. Maybe they already knew the numbers but it really seemed a bit premature what they did. HD DVD players and movie sales were going up every month, and as I said previously, most of the people I know were buying more HD DVDs than Bluray, myself included.

I honestly thought my PS3 was going to end up being mainly a media/game system and HD DVD was going to pull way ahead, and I really do feel if Warner hadn't gone Bluray exclusive it would be a totally different landscape as far as the format war by the end of 2008.

The bottom line is Sony needed this bad. Toshiba was most likely poised for another price drop followed by gen 4 players later this year, and the way consumers were buying the A2 and then the A3 players, well like I said it really would have been a different landscape. Let's just say that mid 2007 Block Buster said they were going Bluray exclusive and then recanted that statement... same as Target, who after seeing HD DVD player sales go through the roof not only didn't drop HD DVD, but expanded the number of titles they carried, but still less than the number of Bluray titles. So yes all the HD DVD sales and price drops were having an affect. Warner always claimed they wanted to see everyone release on both formats, or at least a dual disc they were proposing- so I don't feel their decision was totally based on numbers like they said it was... well, maybe some financial numbers! 

Toshiba should be saying something this week, in fact I am surprised nothing was said today. They really do need to make a statement, and make it soon. As far as most people I know though, they are saying this is definitely it and its over.


----------



## bobgpsr

wbassett said:


> Toshiba should be saying something this week, in fact I am surprised nothing was said today. They really do need to make a statement, and make it soon. As far as most people I know though, they are saying this is definitely it and its over.


They did today:
http://www.tacp.com/news/newsarticle.asp?newsid=194


> WAYNE, NJ - JANUARY 14TH, 2008
> TOSHIBA DEPLOYS NEW HD DVD MARKETING INITIATIVES BASED ON STRONG FOURTH QUARTER UNIT SALES
> Mass Market Acceptance Confirms that HD DVD is the Consumer's Choice for Next Generation High Def Entertainment
> 
> Toshiba America Consumer Products, L.L.C. (“Toshiba”) today announced that it is stepping up its successful marketing campaign for HD DVD as it experienced record-breaking unit sales in the fourth quarter of 2007. Major initiatives, including joint advertising campaigns with studios and extended pricing strategies will begin in mid-January and are designed to spotlight the superior benefits of HD DVD as well as the benefits HD DVD brings to a consumer’s current DVD library by upconvertingstandard DVDs via the HDMI™ output to near high def picturequality.
> 
> As Toshiba achieved the #1 sales volume in the next generation DVD category with an approximately 50% market share in 2007, HD DVD is proven to be the format of choice for consumers. Coupled with an 80% plus market share of all next generation DVD equipped notebooks for the 4th quarter 2007, the HD DVD format has already paved the way to high definition digital AV solution by eliminating the boundaries between the consumer’s living room and on the go.
> 
> 
> HD DVD not only creates the ultimate high definition entertainment experience, leveraging all of the promise of the format such as superior audio/video performance, Web-enabled network capabilities and advanced interactive features – it also has a high-level of compatibility with DVD. With DVD upconversion via the HDMI™ output, HD DVD players instantly make a movie lovers existing DVD library look better than ever.
> 
> “HD DVD is the best way to watch movies in high definition,” said Jodi Sally, Vice President of DAV Marketing for Toshiba. “Our HD DVD players not only play back approximately 800 HD DVD titles available worldwide and deliver an entirely new level of entertainment, but also enhance the picture quality to near high definition on legacy DVD titlesby all studios. In short, we added hi def to DVD which already is the de facto standard format created and approved by the DVD Forum that consists of more than two hundred companies.
> 
> New Marketing Strategy for Mass Market Adoption
> 
> Taking the holiday season sales based on promotional prices into full consideration, these new manufacturer’s suggested retail prices (MSRP) are designed to meet the potential demand for HD DVD players in the US market. *Effective on January 13, 2008 the MSRP of the entry-model HD-A3 will be $149.99, the HD-A30, with 1080p output, $199.99, and the high-end HD-A35, $299.99.*
> 
> “While price is one of the consideration elements for the early adopter, it is a deal-breaker for the mainstream consumer,” said Yoshi Uchiyama, Group Vice President Digital A/V Group. “Consumer sales this holiday season have proven that the consumer awareness of the HD DVD format has been elevated and pricing is the most critical determinant in consumer’s purchase decision of the next generation HD DVD technology. The value HD DVD provides to the consumer simply cannot be ignored.”
> 
> Extended Advertising Campaign
> 
> Toshiba plans to execute an extended advertising campaign that will further enhance consumer awareness of the benefits of HD DVD and drive sales to retail among potential consumers. Advertising strategies will include television, print and online media channels. Toshiba will also work with its dealers and studio partners on joint marketing and promotional initiatives to promote HD DVD. Current promotions include “The Perfect HD Offer” – a mail-in offer allowing consumers to select five HD DVD titles for free from a selection of 15 with the purchase of any Toshiba HD DVD player.
> 
> Consistent Viewing Experience and More
> 
> With advanced interactivity and Web-enabled network capabilities built into every HD DVD player through a dedicated Ethernet port as mandated by the specifications approved by the DVD Forum, Toshiba delivers on the promise of a consistent entertainment experience through firmware updates as studios launch new applications. HD DVD allows studios to flex their creative muscle in ways never before seen. The latest of these new experiences is online streaming. Now, when consumers connect their HD DVD player to the Internet, they can stream new content or trailers, as available, directly from a movie studios server.
> 
> Universal Home Video, Paramount Pictures and DreamWorks Animation SKG have reported that an average of 30 percent of HD DVD owners have accessed Web-enabled network features and continue to do so regularly.
> 
> Ongoing Customer Commitment
> 
> In order to ensure that its customers will receive complete satisfaction from their new players, Toshiba introduced the "HD DVD Concierge" earlier this month. Consumers can now call 1-888-MY HDDVD (1-888-694-3383) for answers to general questions about HD DVD, for operational assistance or for assistance with various promotions.
> ...


----------



## MatrixDweller

If nothing I think Warner's move to Bluray has only heated up the competition and the result has been inexpensive HD-DVD players as already pointed out in the press release. It will also make the HD-DVD backers more innovative hopefully. I think there is still a lot of untapped potential in the online connectivity and the player's built in programmability (ie: games, menu systems, etc). Paramount denied that they would drop HD-DVD so there are still some major studios backing HD-DVD. 

Don't throw the towel in yet, there is still a long way to the finish line.


----------



## Richard W. Haines

I'm about to throw in the towel with HD DVD. I purchased the HD XA2 on October 5, 2007
from Amazon. The first problem I had was the player drifiting out of synch. I contacted
Toshiba and they sent me the CD-ROM update to install and it seemed to fix the problem.
I just skimmed through the HD DVD of "The Aviator" yesterday and today had my family
over to screen it today and now the Toshiba won't output any video image from the HDMI,
the S-Video or even the component cable. On screen it says "No Signal". I hooked up
the Samsung standard DVD player and it outputs to the Optoma HD70 fine so it's not
the projector. I let the Toshiba cool off and tried again with both HD DVD discs that I
already screened along with standard DVD that I watched on it. Nothing. No video signal
at all although the sound plays. This machine is less than four months old and it's already
screwed up. In comparison, the old Samsung standard DVD player which I've been using
for years is still fine.


I just emailed Toshiba and hopefully they'll get back to me next week and not put me through
the wringer getting it fixed or replaced since it's still under warranty. Although when it worked
the image was great, I am very disappointed and frustrated with first the synch problem and
now the image not outputting to the DLP from any cable or out.


----------



## tonyvdb

Richard W. Haines said:


> today and now the Toshiba won't output any video image from the HDMI,
> the S-Video or even the component cable. On screen it says "No Signal".


Did it do this right after the firmware update? If you have an older crt tv one hook up to the composite out of the Toshiba and you should see the output. go into the setup menu and check the settings it changed the video output in the HDMI and my projector did not like it. It happened to me after I did the firmware update and thats what I had to do to get it to output video again via HDMI


----------



## MatrixDweller

I had that problem on a Samsung HD841 upconverting DVD player. I set the output to HDMI and chose to scale to 1080i but for some reason it didn't like it and then I couldn't get a signal on component or HDMI no matter what I did. I had to do a hard reset to get it back (had to hold down the power button and another key at the same time). Don't quote me but I think to do that on the XA2 you need to, from player being on, hold down the power button for 10 seconds. It should power off then power it back on again and it should be reset. The other way is to unplug it.


----------



## Richard W. Haines

Thanks for the comments. I had installed the updates a while ago and played a number of
discs in the interim which worked fine (both HD and standard DVD). As I said I was playing around with the new disc of "The Aviator" the day before to set the color and also checked the double disc set of "Road to Rio" and "Road to Bali". Everything was fine. Then I turned on the machine and
it wouldn't out put any video image even though the sound was playing through all five
speakers. I tried outputting it from the S-Video and component but still nothing. My old
reliable upscaling Samsung outputted to the DLP fine so it's clearly the Toshiba player. I'll
try turning it on and off as described.


In hindsight, I wish I hadn't purchased this model and I should've waited until kinks were worked out. I should've purchased one of the lower end cheap machines to play around with rather than this
expensive top of the line model. It's pretty outrageous that they offered the X A2
with a noticeable synch problem that required a firmware update. It seems as if they rushed
these units into the marketplace because of the format war before they had be tested
in the field. Having said that, the HD DVD image looks great but who needs all these other
headaches. I can image how furious non-technical consumers would be with these problems.


----------



## bobgpsr

Please explain the "sync" problem. Audio not matching with video? Your display not syncing/locking in the picture?

When you tried the Composite/S-Video output, did you open the front door and slide the MODE switch to position 1?

I have been enjoying my XA2 since early Jan 07 with no problems.


----------



## Richard W. Haines

MatrixDweller,

I took your suggestion and now it works again and is outputting the signal from all three
cables (HDMI, S-Video, Component). Many thanks. However, I'm a bit apprehensive in that
I have no idea why it stopped working and why it's now working again. I can't recommend this
machine without reservations since I had synch problems from the beginning and then problems
with it outputting the video signal. I don't mind a problem that I fix as long as I know why
the problem existed. I get very nervous when electronic equipment starts to get funky and
I can't pinpoint the problem. Sometimes the Dell computer I use gets completely frozen on line
and I can't even shut it down with the CTrl button. I have to just unplug the machine and hope
for the best when it boots back up. Of course I keep back up discs of all data since I've had 
two computers crash on me in the past.
I have the Samsung standard definition player near by so the show can go on no matter what happens with the Toshiba HD player. I gave away some of my standard DVDs of movies that I bought HD copies of but I'll stop doing that and keep both for the rest of them in case I have problems with the HD player again. To be quite honest, for some movies the difference is not that extreme between standard DVD and HD DVD. For example, "The Dirty Dozen" doesn't look that much better on HD because of the extensive opticals and somewhat muddy photography to begin with. Others like "2001" show a major difference because of the white on white sets which show the pixels in the standard DVD version. I've never had problems with the Samsung standard DVD player.


Bobqpser,

By synch problems I mean the audio drifting out of synch as the movie plays. Someone says a line but the lips don't match the sound. It gets progressively worse during the running time. The upgrade that Toshiba sent me that I installed seems to have fixed the problem with the exception of "Mutiny on the Bounty" which is slightly rubbery for the second half of the film but it may be a problem on this particular HD disc or the transfer itself. The Standard DVD of the movie is in perfect synch. The other HD and Standard DVDs play in synch now with the Toshiba...as long as it ouputs the video signal that is.


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## bobgpsr

Richard W. Haines said:


> By synch problems I mean the audio drifting out of synch as the movie plays. Someone says a line but the lips don't match the sound. It gets progressively worse during the running time.


This is a classic syndrome of multiple video data read errors dropping frames causing the audio to go out of sync more and more as the title plays through. Most often you doing a chapter skip back will reset the sync. This can happen with SD DVD players although it is rare now -- except for some PC software players on underpowered PC's. The newer XA2 firmware likely has better/smarter error correction so it hides the optical pickup unit problems better. Not all XA2's are bad like this. 

If I were you, I would send it back to Toshiba for warranty repairs with the complaint that it has read errors causing audio going out of sync. They should be able to send you back a unit with a more reliable (clean and/or aligned) optical pickup unit.


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