# Front Heights



## Blainetsuds (Feb 12, 2013)

I am not ready to go atmos, aura, or dts-x or whatever is next down the pipe. However I am wondering if adding front height speakers to my setup would be at all beneficial ? I have a 5.2 setup with side surrounds and no room for rear surrounds.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

I had the height channels in my setup for a while, and I really didn't notice a difference. If you have the room, I have heard the width channels are worth it though.


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## Blainetsuds (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks Ron , I unfortunately do not have room for width channels. I have not heard much about front height channels, probably not worth pushing the W.A.F.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

In my case, i had the space to go to the rear, and really enjoy them. As you've said, heights are your only option. I've heard plenty of ppl say they found this more beneficial than rr surrounds.(can't speak for the quality of implementation) If your WAF can withstand it(they're all so different lol), I'd throw some on the wall,and see if they stick. Like most of us I'd bet you have a pair of random speakers to try out. If you like, get some better ones (I don't think they need to be too capable for low end since it's only ambiance they send). No like? Take em down and done! Experiment over.


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## Blainetsuds (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks willis. I would have to purchase a set of bookshelf speakers. My surrounds are Fluance XLBP and they are very good for the money . So for about $150 I could get a pair of Fluance XL7S to try.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

I have used front heights and front wides and have now moved to an Atmos setup (will probably try DTS:X when it's available too). Each has a slightly different effect. I personally was very happy with the addition of front heights. To my ears, they added a bit more fullness to ambient sounds, i.e. crowds at sporting events, environmental sounds like wind, rain, underwater swishing/bubbles. It's subtle most of the time though. Another subtle improvement I noticed was during a movie, say, when an orchestral score starts to build - the music seems to float in the air. It can be a really nice effect, but subtle. In my opinion, if your receiver can do Dolby PLIIz, and it's not much trouble to mount a set of speakers up high, it will be worth the effort.

The Fluance XL series looks to be a very well built line of speakers. I have a set that I'll be reviewing soon. Glad to hear you are happy with yours.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

This will be from my own pov and experience so it's definitive only to me. My issue with any PL processing is it's only semi-discrete. I prefer direct radiators and accuracy true multichannel. My understanding is as soon as PLII is engaged, the discrete rr info is matrixed like usual. For me that loses out. This however is my own prejudice, and offered anecdotally.


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## Insearchof (Oct 21, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> This will be from my own pov and experience so it's definitive only to me. My issue with any PL processing is it's only semi-discrete. I prefer direct radiators and accuracy true multichannel. My understanding is as soon as PLII is engaged, the discrete rr info is matrixed like usual. For me that loses out. This however is my own prejudice, and offered anecdotally.


Agree, my experiences with it are similar.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the comments, but any time you add channels to a discrete mix, the new channels will have matrixed information. i.e. if you up-mix stereo content to 5-channel, you'll have 3 matrixed channels, or add height to 7.1 and you'll have 2 matrixed channels.


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## Blainetsuds (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks guys really good info and opinions as usual. Peter I look forward to your review of the Fluance XL series. When I received my XLBPs I hooked them up as mains and could not believe how good they sounded.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Peter, what I mean to say is, even if in the BD player you've selected 7.1. When you engage any PL playback mode, it dumbs it down. So you don't get 7.1.2(.2 as width or height). It doesn't work like atmos. same as if you selected 7.1 but selected "stereo in the avr. On a bus now...


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Peter, what I mean to say is, even if in the BD player you've selected 7.1. When you engage any PL playback mode, it dumbs it down. So you don't get 7.1.2(.2 as width or height). It doesn't work like atmos. same as if you selected 7.1 but selected "stereo in the avr. On a bus now...


I definitely agree it doesn't work like Atmos. And I agree if you use stereo playback mode on a 7.1 source that content from the 7 discrete inputs are down mixed to just left and right. And if you use PLIIz decoding on a stereo source you end up with 3, 5, or 7 matrixed channels (depending on your speaker setup). Not sure I follow the dumbing down part but I think we agree that the front height channels are not discrete, and no content is being removed from the original 7.1 mix during PLIIz decoding. As with anything else in this hobby it's a matter of preference and this one is easy to experiment with if you have a spare set of speakers on hand. That's the only way to know for sure.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hi Peter. On vacation and trying to keep up with everyone between activities. My articulation is suffering for it lol. I also find we agree here except for the treatment of 7.1 playback. To my understanding, engaging PLIIz on a discrete 7.1 source will down mix to stereo, allowing PLII to decode to its own playback spec. To my thinking that means matrixing across the front and rear, and matrixed height/width. No cake and eating it too. You get 7.1 discrete, or 9.1 not discrete. Maybe I'm way off?
And your right. The subjective nature of the hobby, combined with all the options leaves enough room for everyone to enjoy how they wish. Or confuse us to death. Lol


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Oh yeah, dumbing down was referring to down mixing 7.1 discrete to a PLII mix. In other words by nature, PLII playback is a matrixed system so it can not play back true discrete information. Therefore 7.1 discrete,or 9.1/11.1 not discrete.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Jan 31, 2015)

Don't forget Audyssey DSX as an option for heights.


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## Blainetsuds (Feb 12, 2013)

Since I would need to purchase a new pair of speakers to add front height channels. Should I get another set of Fluance XLBP surrounds, which are great speakers, or go with regular bookshelf speakers from Fluance. There is not much price difference.:spend:


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

The height speakers should be direct radiating, so the XL7S as mentioned above would be my recommendation. I don't see it mentioned here - what are you using for mains and center channel?


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## Blainetsuds (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks Peter. My mains are Polk TSi 400 and center is CSi-A6.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

In that case a set of TSi100s might be a good option for the heights too.


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## wilbur_the_goose (Jan 31, 2015)

Before you spend your money, let me share personal experience. After hooking up the heights and redoing the Audyssey XT32 process, I now only rarely activate them. It just seems too artificial to me.


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## Blainetsuds (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks Peter and Wilbur, I guess the verdict on front heights is still split. Like a lot of things in this hobby it comes down to personal choice. PS the TSi 100s are getting hard to find, especially in cherry finish. in Canada.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Not sure how much weight I'll add to your scale, but personally, I'd forego them. Due to my feelings above. I'd spend my money on a minidsp(if you don't have one that is), or something more worthwhile. IMHO.


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## Blainetsuds (Feb 12, 2013)

Yeah, adding 2 more speakers in my relativity small room, with somewhat limited effect, is probably not the best bang for my buck. I will save the W.A.F. for something else. I don't understand how the minidsp works or how it can improve a system.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

Are you unhappy with any aspect of your current system? Itching to spend some money? If you're happy with what you've got there's no harm in just sitting back and enjoying it. The alternative is to end up like me, cutting holes, running wire, and lugging gear up and down stairs all the time. Any addition to a properly set up 5.1 system will be subtle. Spend the money on more movies or music. Or take your wife out for a nice dinner


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## Blainetsuds (Feb 12, 2013)

Wow! Peter, I hope my wife does not read your post. No just kidding, that is a good idea. I am happy with my system. I will be changing around/replacing some furniture to try and better position speakers and make room more comfortable for all. I will wait for room tweeks before I may or may not revisit the addition of height speakers. Thanks to all for your valued input.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

PLIIx & PLIIz keep the original discrete channels, they will only matrix added channels that are not in the original mix. So if a movie is received as 5.1 discrete, PLIIx will play the original 5.1 discrete channels and matrix the two added rear surround channels (or it would matrix the two added height channels with PLIIz).
Think of it as "DD+PLII."

And what is "rr," to me that means "right rear?"

In my opinion, added surround sound channels will benefit any size room. It is meant as an effect to place a specific sound at a specific location. If you need to fill a big room with sound, you just need more speakers, not more discrete channels.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Sorry, but you'll have to explain to me how PLII(matrix decoder and playback mode) can play back a discrete track when it can't decode it. PLII does not retain a 5/7.1 mix because it can't. That's what the DD/DTS decoder does. PLII downmixes the discrete mix so it can decode it and play it back per PLIIz/x spec. Not DD+PLIIz.(that's closer to atmos with a core track) 
Yes RR means rear. 
And adding channels for the sake of it doesn't place specific things in the room unless it's coded that way. PLII can't. Some video games did have PLIIz encoded early on, but never got traction. IMHO the benefit comes from realistic channel steering, not just more matrixed channels. Please elaborate. I may not be entirely accurate.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> ... how PLII(matrix decoder and playback mode) can play back a discrete track when it can't decode it... PLII downmixes the discrete mix so it can decode it and play it back per PLIIz/x spec.


I can't find the article to re-read and reference so I might be remembering incorrectly, but here are my current thoughts. You reference the old PLII which does not decode digital discrete mixes. I am referring to newer PLIIx(z) which is a different breed that does decode digital discrete mixes. "_PLII downmixes the discrete mix so it can decode it_...," isn't that backwards, wouldn't it need to be decoded first so it can be downmixed. Obviously my Onkyo's PLIIx mode does decode digital discrete mixes or I wouldn't hear any sound while listening to my Dolby TrueHD encoded Bluray movies.



willis7469 said:


> ..IMHO the benefit comes from realistic channel steering, not just more matrixed channels...


Surround formats such as Dolby Pro Logic & PLII & PLIIx(z) is capable of realistic channel steering though matrixing. In 1992 I remember watching a movie at home with someone talking onscreen and all of the dialogue was coming out of the center speaker, not out of the L/R speakers. The AVR was getting a simple stereo signal from the VCR, no discrete center channel available.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1061976-dolby-digital-ex-pliix.html 
...this AVS forum thread has great info regarding how modern surround processing works, "sdurani" (Sanjay) is the forum member that has the best information. 

Signal decoders (DD, TrueHD...) and the surround proccesors (PLII,PLIIx...) work together (hence my earlier statement that using PLIIx is like DD+PLII). While receiving a 5.1 signal, the AVR uses it's digital decoder (Dolby TrueHD) to decode the signal, then the AVR uses it's surround processor (PLIIx) to matrix only the signals to be sent to extra speakers. 
I still can't find the proper documentation to link to, but one of the official Dolby whitepapers informs that the PLIIx process "bypasses" the channels not needed for matrixing. It does not take the entire 5.1 discrete signal and downconvert/downmix it to stereo and then matrix everything back to 7.1.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

gdstupak said:


> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1061976-dolby-digital-ex-pliix.html
> ...this AVS forum thread has great info regarding how modern surround processing works, "sdurani" (Sanjay) is the forum member that has the best information.
> 
> Signal decoders (DD, TrueHD...) and the surround proccesors (PLII,PLIIx...) work together (hence my earlier statement that using PLIIx is like DD+PLII). While receiving a 5.1 signal, the AVR uses it's digital decoder (Dolby TrueHD) to decode the signal, then the AVR uses it's surround processor (PLIIx) to matrix only the signals to be sent to extra speakers.
> I still can't find the proper documentation to link to, but one of the official Dolby whitepapers informs that the PLIIx process "bypasses" the channels not needed for matrixing. It does not take the entire 5.1 discrete signal and downconvert/downmix it to stereo and then matrix everything back to 7.1.


Thanks for the info.

Does anyone know if the PLIIz height channels are matrixed only from the surround left and right channels? (assuming you have at least a 5.1 input) Or do they pick up cues from the front L&R/rear surrounds as well? (again, assuming 5.1 or 7.1 input)

Edit: I searched for the Dolby white papers for PLII as well and all I could find was Atmos related.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

For adding front height signals, PLIIz uses cues only from the surround channels, not from the main L/R channels. I can't remember if I read this straight from a Dolby website or if it came from just here-say so it could be misinformation.
I don't know why Dolby makes most of their standard website info so vague, but makes their good technical info hard to find.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

gdstupak said:


> For adding front height signals, PLIIz uses cues only from the surround channels, not from the main L/R channels. I can't remember if I read this straight from a Dolby website or if it came from just here-say so it could be misinformation.
> I don't know why Dolby makes most of their standard website info so vague, but makes there good technical info hard to find.


I just answered my own question. Don't know how I missed this detail the first time I read through it.

From Dolby's website (http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-pro-logic-iiz.html):


> _Note: For 5.1-channel sources, Dolby Pro Logic IIz height extensions operate only on the Ls and Rs channels; L, C, R, and LFE channels are bypassed.
> 
> Note: For 7.1-channel sources, Dolby Pro Logic IIz height extensions may operate only on the Ls, Rs, Lrs, and Rrs channels; L, C, R, and LFE are bypassed._


So for the OP, upmixing a 5.1 input to 7.1 with heights: The mains/center would be bypassed while the surround L/R and height L/R would be matrixed from the discrete surround L/R channels of the source.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

This seems to follow Dolbys statement here. 
"LCR are bypassed"
Here's the page. 
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-pro-logic-iiz.html
Vague is an understatement. I emailed them asking for the description in their own words but haven't heard yet. As you said, I might be sniffing old news print, but for some reason PLII (any kind) as I learned of it is just a dsp not dedicated to discrete playback. Ironically, my system is 7.3 with rr surrounds. But I want to make sure I understand this completely. Yes Sanjay is full of good information.


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