# HELP on system upgrade



## ggyyggyy (Apr 14, 2014)

I have a dedicated HT room about 18 x 25.
Hsu Research Speakers: 
front wall sub: VTF2, 
rear wall sub: VTF1, (not used yet).
center: HC-1,
and six HB-1 for the rest.
Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR608 (bought this several years ago before having the Hsu speaker set)
no amps and nothing else for the audio

mostly watching movies.

I am still new to this, I know this setup is good enough to impress wife but I feel it's probably not balanced and maybe have a lot more potentials.
so what should I do to upgrade? don't really have a budget limit in mind but don't want to spent a lot of money either.

thanks!


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Welcome to the forum.

Before any recommendations can legitimately be made the group needs more information.

What is it about your current system that you find lacking?
Is it not loud enough?
Does it give you headaches after listening for a while?
Is there a feature missing on the AVR that you need (3d, more HDMI, iPod compatible) ?
Not enough bass ( just kidding, I think) ??
Do you dislike something specific?
Have you heard speakers you like better?
Do you have to have 7.1 sound or would 5.1 satisfy you?

The reason for the last question is if 5.1 is a viable option you keep two of the Hsu speakers for surrounds and sell a 5.1 channel set using the smaller sub to offset the new stuff.

Having never heard the Hsu speakers if they are close to their reputation you will have to spend money to get better.
If they are simply not your cup of tea then spending about the same might get the job done.


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## ggyyggyy (Apr 14, 2014)

Thanks for the reply

I bought the VTF1 sub several years ago and was very happy with it. But it was for a smaller room. So when I built the dedicated HT room recently, I bought the Hsu hybrid 2 set, which have the VTF2 and all 7 other speakers. I was hoping to use the VTF1 as the 2nd sub.
So in general, I feel good about all the speakers and try not to change them. Not just yet :scratch:

My concern is for the AVR, my understand is the 608 is at entry level and does it have enough output to fully support all the speakers? Do I need to add some amps and keep the 608 or do I just go with some better AVR? What would these options really bring to the sound?

Some other points:
I like to stay with 7.1, I was hoping to go to 9.2 eventually... for a long shot tho.
I was not looking for more features from AVR, mainly for improve the sound if getting a new one.

Cheers


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I am in the camp that thinks there is very little (no) difference in the way different AVRs sound when operated in the direct/pure direct mode (opinions vary on that so study up and form your own opinion).
So swapping out the 608 (which is very highly rated) for something else is likely to do nothing for sound quality.
The 608 is more than capable of driving your speakers (all 7 of them) to ear bleeding levels in your room and with a subwoofer (or two) handling LFE and <80Hz I do not see how it is lacking for output power.
http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-SR608&class=Receiver#specs 

I would spend time getting the system dialed in and really learning how the AVR works.
After spending a few months with it if you are not loving it maybe then you can identify what you are not satisfied with.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

I am in agreement that that system is very well balanced already. 
The bass from your current subs is enough to be balanced and satisfy the common enthusist. But...if you are looking for that little something extra, step up to one of HSU's bigger subs. This is not because you need more bass loudness, this would be for that tactile feeling of extra deep low rumblings not associated with the common subwoofer.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

chashint said:


> I am in the camp that thinks there is very little (no) difference in the way different AVRs sound when operated in the direct/pure direct mode (opinions vary on that so study up and form your own opinion). So swapping out the 608 (which is very highly rated) for something else is likely to do nothing for sound quality. The 608 is more than capable of driving your speakers (all 7 of them) to ear bleeding levels in your room and with a subwoofer (or two) handling LFE and <80Hz I do not see how it is lacking for output power. http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-SR608&class=Receiver#specs I would spend time getting the system dialed in and really learning how the AVR works. After spending a few months with it if you are not loving it maybe then you can identify what you are not satisfied with.


I agree that you have a good equipment list, and that once you get it dialed, and tweaked you will have a great sounding balanced system. Proper setup usually goes much farther than money, and I also agree that your AVR is up to task. I do have a question for chashint. You brought up direct/pure audio. While I use both of these modes for music occasionally, what would be the point for movies? I only ask because it seems that movies (the OP's main playback media) benefit much more from the processing. ...bass management, eq, audyssey, etc.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

ggyyggyy said:


> I have a dedicated HT room about 18 x 25.
> 
> ---snip---
> 
> ...


First things first, it's all about the Benjamins and how many of them you're willing to throw at your question.

Second thing, upgrade your AVR to a better level of Audyssey. Maybe an Onkyo TX-SR 818 that has XT32. Any AVR that has XT32 w/SubEQ HT, is worth the money because,for what it does, yes, it's that good.

More room correction software is better.

Third, get that unused subwoofer up and operating as two subwoofers is "always" better than one.

Download and get a freeware copy of REW up and running so you can measure the acoustics of your room. Without this information, one is "always" flying blind.

Fourth, I am not the voice of reason.

Fifth, I am a subwoofer enabler.

Sixth, if you want a system that will wow you and your buddies, you're going have to spend. The penalty, the wife gets to buy a boatload of shoes and handbags so she feels like she's getting something out of the deal.

...

The real question, how much are you willing to spend to get what you want?

...:devil:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> First things first, it's all about the Benjamins and how many of them you're willing to throw at your question. Second thing, upgrade your AVR to a better level of Audyssey. Maybe an Onkyo TX-SR 818 that has XT32. Any AVR that has XT32 w/SubEQ HT, is worth the money because,for what it does, yes, it's that good. More room correction software is better. Third, get that unused subwoofer up and operating as two subwoofers is "always" better than one. Download and get a freeware copy of REW up and running so you can measure the acoustics of your room. Without this information, one is "always" flying blind. Fourth, I am not the voice of reason. Fifth, I am a subwoofer enabler. Sixth, if you want a system that will wow you and your buddies, you're going have to spend. The penalty, the wife gets to buy a boatload of shoes and handbags so she feels like she's getting something out of the deal. ... The real question, how much are you willing to spend to get what you want? ...:devil:


It is hard to argue here bee, so I won't. I'll just put in a qualifier or two. While throwing all the money you can spare can help deliver a better experience. That can also end up like the gramma who buys a new C6, and still drives it like her old Buick. ...waste...(Not a Buick slam). Similarity, you can spend a ton on gear and have it yield no better performance than an htib. (Also not a slam) I would spend as much time as you can afford first, in learning, and tweaking, and REW-ing, and once you fully understand what you find lacking, and at that point, spend it all! J/K, but I do agree with Bee about an XT32 equipped rcvr. I have a TXNR-808, and that's really the only thing I wished it had. And yes, if that 2nd sub isn't in use, I would highly recommend that as well. 
Will


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> That can also end up like the gramma who buys a new C6, and still drives it like her old Buick. ...waste...(Not a Buick slam).


I don't know what a C6 is, but if it makes one happy, it's worth it. The point, Gram knows what makes her happy and in the end, isn't that what it's all about, Gram being happy?

(you do want your Grammy to be happy)

...


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> I don't know what a C6 is, but if it makes one happy, it's worth it. The point, Gram knows what makes her happy and in the end, isn't that what it's all about, Gram being happy? (you do want your Grammy to be happy) ...


sorry bee that would be a 6th generation vette. Yes, it is about grammas happiness, but also frustrating for someone who realizes it's potential to watch her putz around in it, and never use it to a fraction of its potential. I'll admit to my speaking slightly out of envy, despite having my own performance vehicles, I can't just walk in and plop down the dough for a new one.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> sorry bee that would be a 6th generation vette. Yes, it is about grammas happiness, but also frustrating for someone who realizes it's potential to watch her putz around in it, and never use it to a fraction of its potential. I'll admit to my speaking slightly out of envy, despite having my own performance vehicles, I can't just walk in and plop down the dough for a new one.


So Grammy can't get what she wants because you're stuck with a GT 500?

We don't use our system up to "it's potential" but we sure are happy when we take it out for a blu-ray spin.

...

Nothing wrong with envy or wanting to keep up with the Jones'. I'm not sure where you're wanting to go.

I wanted a Denon AVR4520CI and a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs and put our credit card in hock to the tune of about a years worth of payments.

(don't worry, we didn't harm our fiscal security)

And now we want a pair of HTC One (M8) smart phones and will more than likely sign a two year contract to make it happen.

The point, we grow old, we die, I would like to have some fun and happines while we're here and I would hope others, will do the same. Hence my encouragement to do the same.

...:sn:

...


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

All god points bee. I'm actually laughing out loud! But what if Grammys only realization of her upgrade is that it's harder to get in and out of her toy? (Or navigate a soup to nuts rcvr). Lol!!!


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## ggyyggyy (Apr 14, 2014)

lol, thanks for all the advises, guys!


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> I do have a question for chashint. You brought up direct/pure audio. While I use both of these modes for music occasionally, what would be the point for movies? I only ask because it seems that movies (the OP's main playback media) benefit much more from the processing. ...bass management, eq, audyssey, etc.


It was a qualifier to try to avoid starting a AVRs sound different from each other rabbit hole.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I do not necessarily agree that spending money on a higher model AVR or even subwoofers will guarantee improved sound quality.
Even if it did the OP wouldn't know because he has not got all of the existing equipment setup yet.
At this point investing time in REW would also be nonproductive because the effort to understand how the existing equipment works has not been done.

There is much to learn, much to enjoy, and much to contemplate before throwing more money at a very solid audio system.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> All god points bee. I'm actually laughing out loud! But what if Grammys only realization of her upgrade is that it's harder to get in and out of her toy?


Gull doors?

...

Switching aside, we only take benefit of the amplifier section and the room correction software. As to everything else our AVR is capable of, we don't use it.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

chashint said:


> At this point investing time in REW would also be nonproductive because the effort to understand how the existing equipment works has not been done.


Getting REW up and running and learning what it's capable of showing one, is a good step toward learning how the acoustics of one's room works and at the same time will give one a visualization tool which "will" aid them in understanding how their existing gear works.

In short, learning REW "is" understanding how existing equipment works.

...

Without the use of room correction software and REW, there is zero hope.....period. Without the benefit of room measuring software like REW, one is flying blind as a bat.........without radar. The best/least expensive upgrade one can do for their system is to purchase a 2X4 copy of miniDSP and get a copy of REW up and running to aid getting the system they have, dialed in; then go for the upgrade button.

After the miniDSP arrives, the next best thing the individual could do is pull that second subwoofer out and get it hooked up and dialed into the acoustics in their room.

My experience with the above comments? I spent a bit more than a year learning about subwoofers, REW, room correction software and Anti-Mode 8033S II before hitting the upgrade button.

I ask all who openly decry REW, a simple question and that question is, have they taken the time to get a freeware copy of REW up and running?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Got me! ...dang it.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Got me! ...dang it.


......

As a parting gift, you get to keep the image of the GT-500 that was planted in your brain.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

chashint said:


> I do not necessarily agree that spending money on a higher model AVR or even subwoofers will guarantee improved sound quality. Even if it did the OP wouldn't know because he has not got all of the existing equipment setup yet. At this point investing time in REW would also be nonproductive because the effort to understand how the existing equipment works has not been done. There is much to learn, much to enjoy, and much to contemplate before throwing more money at a very solid audio system.


Im pretty sure that's what I told him also. Maybe just worded differently. Fwiw, I have 4 AVRs and they all sound vastly different from each other. 2have room correction. (Audyssey, mcacc). 2have none. To what do I to attribute this? DACs? Just looking for input.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Upgrading with better room correction and/or subs will make his current system better. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have his present system fully dialed in yet to evaluate and compare.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Different approaches for different folks.
I and many others "struggled" through the 70's 80's 90's and early 2k's without the benefit of auto cal software or anything remotely similar to REW, we didn't even have access to SPL meters.
I wonder how we ever managed to live through it ?
I would not willingly return to the "dark ages" but a new member who is really just starting out has made a fairly significant investment in a very good 'first' system and I do not see any reason to start upgrading it before the new smell has even worn off.

When it comes to room correction even the best is a mixed bag.
The HTS staff recently completed a $3k/pr speaker eval where the speakers were placed in multiple locations in the room until optimal location was achieved. Listening tests were performed and REW was used to bench mark each speaker. Audessey was run and REW and listening test were done again. If I recall correctly only one pair of speakers was judged to sound better after applying Audessey even though in every case the REW measured response indicated a flatter frequency response.
So the contention that the highest version of Audessey is the answer to all woes is just that, contention.

REW can be a remarkable tool, but unless one is going to be willing to rearrange the speaker placements (possibly the layout of the entire room) and potentially add acoustical treatments (in the correct quantity and locations) what is to be gained by investing the time to learn how to use it and map the room?


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

chashint said:


> I wonder how we ever managed to live through it ?


Personally, I whined and complained a whole lot. Drove my wife crazy in the process and dreamed of an affordable equalizer with calibration microphone. Finally Audyssey came out and I found relief.



> REW can be a remarkable tool, but unless one is going to be willing to rearrange the speaker placements (possibly the layout of the entire room) and potentially add acoustical treatments (in the correct quantity and locations) what is to be gained by investing the time to learn how to use it and map the room?


In our case, Audyssey XT32 w/SubEQ HT made a lot of difference. And Audyssey was a clear improvement to my ears when turned on and off. XT32 w/SubEQ HT whipped Audyssey XT that was augmented by Anti-Mode 8033S II. Check out the graphs I have posted in my photo gallery.

I never have understood why folks put up such a fight when folks recommend tools such as miniDSP, the use of REW and encourage taking the time to learn about the acoustics in a room when time and again, REW and miniDSP have proven themselves among users.

...

What is it about REW that you seem to not like as you seem more inclined to discourage the use of REW and inexpensive equalizers such as miniDSP than to encourage their use? In my experience, REW was the best thing I did for our system as it opened my eyes to how the acoustics of our room were interacting with each other.

...


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

chashint said:


> ...and I do not see any reason to start upgrading it before the new smell has even worn off.


Have you even read the OP's 1st post. That is exactly what he has asked our opinions about..._"*so what should I do to upgrade?"*_
I told him he has a very well balanced system, and then gave my opinion on what could be upgraded to enhance the system.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Comments inserted...



BeeMan458 said:


> Personally, I whined and complained a whole lot. Drove my wife crazy in the process and dreamed of an affordable equalizer with calibration microphone. Finally Audyssey came out and I found relief.
> 
> Now that was funny, it may be true but it's funny.
> 
> ...


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

gdstupak said:


> Have you even read the OP's 1st post. That is exactly what he has asked our opinions about..._"*so what should I do to upgrade?"*_
> .


Perhaps you should read the first four posts in the thread again before going down this particular path.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

My opinion is ggyggyy will be best served by setting up the equipment he has now and studying the AVR manual, then asking questions about the parts not understood and applying the knowledge to tweak what is already in hand.
This costs nothing but a little time and is fun (at least I think playing with the stereo is fun).
If satisfaction is not achieved the ability to identify what is lacking will be improved.
Depending on the issue (if one is identified) the course for new equipment may be clear or it may be time to bring REW into play to analyze the room.
Understanding what REW is telling you is not as simple as looking at a frequency response graph.
The speaker system is virtually brand new.
I don't think throwing money at a problem that may not exist is the best path forward even though that may ultimately be what is required.
The VTF2 is a very good sub and the VTF1 is not exactly a slouch either....are they the top of the Hsu line, no, but subwoofers have not been identified as a potential problem by ggyggyy.
Everyone loves the top tier Audessey, I get it, but there are also people out there that turn it off because they don't like the way it affects the sound.
Once again I think the best path forward is to give the gear in hand a chance, the time spent learning how it works will be directly transferable is staying with the same brand and if switching brands the basics are going to be very similar.

I do not expect to change anyone's opinion that has been participating in the thread, ggyggyy will take it all in and decide how he wants to proceed.
Once the path forward is chosen if I think I can contribute to success I will attempt to do so and I hope everyone else will continue to try to help too.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

REW is a compass that helps the individual see the acoustics in their room. Seeing the acoustics in one's room, does two things. First, it tells one what needs to be worked on in their room. Second, by being able to see the acoustics in their room, it encourages one to learn about the interaction of sound waves in a room.

One can't know what problems exist in a room until they analyze their room. REW does this and graphs it out for the individual so they can see what's what with what regarding the acoustics in their room. And actually, REW is easy to read. If one knows the goal is +/-3dB or down -6dB and they see a -40dB "V" in their graph, they know they have a null of a problem that needs to be attended to. Admittedly, the first time one runs a spectrogram, their head might explode because they graphically and in color, see how terrible their measurements are, compared to open plane measurements. I know my head exploded.

...:yikes:

Is it a learning curve? Absolutely but it's a learning curve well worth pursuing for the benefit of knowing how one's room's acoustics measure and by knowing this, allows corrections to be made in real time.

As to subwoofers not being identified as being a problem, with no exception, every subwoofer is a problem. Why? Because subwoofer produced sound waves that are well known for not playing and getting along well with each other. Only with the "show me" benefit of room measuring software like REW, will one ever become aware of how much of a problem their subwoofer is nor will they realize how much improvement the addition of a second or third subwoofer to their sound system will be, until measurements have been made.

There is no throwing money at anything. REW is free and the only two tools one needs is a digital sound meter which can be easily and inexpensively obtained at Radio Shack and a USB measuring microphone that can plug into a laptop. By comparison, it's a few dollars to get REW up and running and once familiar with it's operation, it's all point-n-click.

With benefit of REW, one can learn how to "Y" connect two subwoofers and use phase controls to dial both subs into the acoustics in their room. At the same time, during the learning curve, the individual would be getting an excellent education about how sound waves interact in a room, reinforcement and cancellation. All of which is a good thing.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

chashint said:


> Perhaps you should read the first four posts in the thread again before going down this particular path.


Yes, I read them again. I still believe my comments and suggestions followed the theme of the thread.
The suggestions some of us has made isn't trying to fix a problem. We don't know if there's a problem.
We are making general suggestions to help enhance what he already has.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> Getting REW up and running and learning what it's capable of showing one, is a good step toward learning how the acoustics of one's room works and at the same time will give one a visualization tool which "will" aid them in understanding how their existing gear works.
> 
> In short, learning REW "is" understanding how existing equipment works.
> 
> ...


That's like saying stepping on the gas to move forward is knowing how an internal combustion engine works. At best, it shows how the existing system is setup but that is a far cry from understanding how it works. 



BeeMan458 said:


> Without the use of room correction software and REW, there is zero hope.....period. Without the benefit of room measuring software like REW, one is flying blind as a bat.........without radar. The best/least expensive upgrade one can do for their system is to purchase a 2X4 copy of miniDSP and get a copy of REW up and running to aid getting the system they have, dialed in; then go for the upgrade button.
> 
> After the miniDSP arrives, the next best thing the individual could do is pull that second subwoofer out and get it hooked up and dialed into the acoustics in their room.
> 
> ...


Once the OP gains an understanding of how his system works and what the various settings do, he's ready to take the next step into REW and or room correction facilities. One must learn how to walk before one is able to run.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

3dbinCanada said:


> That's like saying stepping on the gas to move forward is knowing how an internal combustion engine works. At best, it shows how the existing system is setup but that is a far cry from understanding how it works.


An internal combustion engine is nothing more than an air pump. Once one understands this principal, everything else is duck soup. The point, taking the time to learn how to use REW will help one better understand the principals of how the acoustics of a room interact. Being able to measure and see the room's interaction with sound waves goes a long way in understanding the principal and then by hanging out on a forum that helps folks with questions regarding room correction software and the use of room measuring software goes a long way in a person's education.

Basic home theater. Step one, hook the gear up.

..............................Step two, turn the on switch on.

..............................Step three, run room correction software.

..............................Step four, run room measuring software to see what the graphs will tell you.

The point, once up and running, it really is as basic as I'm making it out to be.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> An internal combustion engine is nothing more than an air pump. Once one understands this principal, everything else is duck soup. The point, taking the time to learn how to use REW will help one better understand the principals of how the acoustics of a room interact. Being able to measure and see the room's interaction with sound waves goes a long way in understanding the principal and then by hanging out on a forum that helps folks with questions regarding room correction software and the use of room measuring software goes a long way in a person's education.
> 
> Basic home theater. Step one, hook the gear up.
> 
> ...


..............................Step four, play with the gear and the options and become familiar with it.


BeeMan458 said:


> ..............................Step five, run room measuring software to see what the graphs will tell you.
> 
> The point, once up and running, it really is as basic as I'm making it out to be.


I agree :rofl2:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Bee, you forgot, read the manual! (And fuel and spark and compression to your air pump! :


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Can't forget to set the spark.....BTDC. 

LOL

And please, read the manual and be sure to play with your gear. 

...:bigsmile:...:T


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Atta boy! Lol!


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I thought playing with our gear came naturally and at an early age.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

chashint said:


> I thought playing with our gear came naturally and at an early age.


Hilarious!!!


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