# PB13-Ultra + HULK



## Thunderheader (Jan 25, 2009)

Hello,

I have a quick question...Has anyone with an Ultra watched the Hulk? I own the movie and it really is a great movie especially for the LFE. The scene where the Hulk is going through the sounds waves in the university campus and the movie goes into slow motion for a brief few seconds and the bass gets pretty much inaudible, has your Ultra ever over-driven during that particular part? It happened to me. If you have say a BFD, could you prevent this sort of thing from happening or is it just too low for the 20hz tuning? If turn down the gain for this movie then i miss out on all the great bass just for this one scene. Still tweaking this thing and I have it at 82db with Avia / RS meter. I have not found the sweet spot yet, but for the majority of the movies that I own I find I do not have to turn the gain down.


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## eyecatcher127 (May 9, 2006)

What is the filter set at on the back of sub? How loud do you play it at reference level? The ultra has a subsonic filter on the amp. You want to set it to the same setting as your tuning, so if you are tuned for 20hz, all three ports open, put the filter at 20hz as well, same goes for 15hz with one bung, and 10hz with two bungs.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

That is a normal but not good problem with the Hulk and about 4 other BluRay movies There is some very high level subsonic frequencies (below 10Hz) that will over drive almost any sub in that scene and is only if using the uncompressed audio.
It has been commented about many times. Studios need to pay attention to these subsonic frequencies as they do not need to be there at those levels.


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

That scene you are talking about has a very high level of 12-14hz for a few seconds. One of my personal favorite scenes to demo for people. The Hulk also has a few others with very high levels of content around 10-15hz. Your Ultra should handle it better in 15hz mode.


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## Thunderheader (Jan 25, 2009)

Hey Ben,
The filter is set to 20hz on the back and no ports plugged, I know how to tune it with plugs. It is calibrated to 82db with the Avia disc wich would be 85-86db or 75-76db with AVR test tones.

Josh,
I'm gonna try the 15hz tuning again, see how other movies compare between 20 and 15hz. I have tried it in the past but have reverted back to the 20hz.

If tuning to the 15hz I could probably raise the level to 84db with Avia disc to compensate for the few db lost, additionally this setting would protect the sub from overdriving as it is tuned lower. SI this correct? What tune do you guys run your Ultra at?

Thanks for the input.


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## OvalNut (Jul 18, 2006)

Consider setting the Room Comp control to Large or Med. Doing this starts to roll off the very lowest potentially damaging frequencies. I keep mine at Large and it's great!


Tim
:drive:


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## eyecatcher127 (May 9, 2006)

Yeah def want to try and tune it lower, 15hz, 10hz or even sealed may be the best for bass that low. Below the tuning frequency the ported design tends to unload the driver as if it was in "free air" (unenclosed) that is why it is being overdriven. Seems that the SVS subsonic filter is not steep enough to suppress the bass that you are playing. Typically they are 24 or 36db/octave even if you did you may be missing out on that infrasonic bass . In a room your size you probably get a decent amount of room gain so you may not have to adjust the gain at all when you tune lower. Anyway boosting the gain would just make it not as smooth at your crossover point. The only roll off you would see is going to be starting around 25hz or so if that. Let me know how it works out. I gave my neighbors a break when I sold my pb10, I'll be getting my ultra tomorrow so keep me posted. Oh and by the way from what I researched there is no way to setup a subsonic filter on the BFD1124 and it's -3 is about 4hz.


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## Thunderheader (Jan 25, 2009)

"The only roll off you would see is going to be starting around 25hz or so if that"

So Ben,
By this statement, tuned to 15hz, the bass will start to decrease from 25hz and on? Even though the crossover is set to 80hz in AVR? Or is it the other way around?


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## Gov (Nov 21, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> That is a normal but not good problem with the Hulk and about 4 other BluRay movies There is some very high level subsonic frequencies (below 10Hz) that will over drive almost any sub in that scene and is only if using the uncompressed audio.
> It has been commented about many times. Studios need to pay attention to these subsonic frequencies as they do not need to be there at those levels.



Thank you very much!! You have answered the question I have been looking for! This scene made my HSU 3.3 "POP". I has listening to the uncompressed audio track with the THX loudness plus feature (similar to Audyssey's dynamic EQ) on. I was at about -12db and I got a peak of 108db at my 12 foot LP before it happened. I am pretty convinced now that my sub was over driven and not clipped.

BTW, what are the 4 other movies?

Thanks


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## Gov (Nov 21, 2007)

Ricci said:


> That scene you are talking about has a very high level of 12-14hz for a few seconds. One of my personal favorite scenes to demo for people. The Hulk also has a few others with very high levels of content around 10-15hz. Your Ultra should handle it better in 15hz mode.



So would my HSU 3.3 handle this scene better with one port blocked "Max Extension"?


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

I watched it with four 12" THX-12 subwoofers powered by MA-500 mono amps at -14dB and heard distortion for a moment during the scene with the pulsing waves. I think I heard some also during the ending. The bass was loud at -14dB but mostly sounded good. I think I may have had the -10 setting on my FBQ at the time.


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## robbroy (Oct 19, 2006)

Thunderheader said:


> If tuning to the 15hz I could probably raise the level to 84db with Avia disc to compensate for the few db lost...
> 
> Thanks for the input.


After plugging a port, you want to calibrate to the same level you had before, not higher. You lose a couple of dBs headroom, meaning your *maximum* volume will be lower before overdriving the sub. There is no need to compensate at all volumes.

-Robb


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## Thunderheader (Jan 25, 2009)

Thanks Robb.


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## eyecatcher127 (May 9, 2006)

Yeah take a look at the frequency repsonses for the different tunes on this site under the subwoofer tests for the pb13ultra, above about 25-30hz all the way to over 100hz the output not effected by the tuning frequency. Even at max output, no more than about 1db difference.


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## Ed Mullen (Jul 28, 2006)

20 Hz tune with Room Gain Comp set to Small will handle this scene the best. The RGC to Small will cascade a few 1st order filters above/beyond the normal high pass setting and will roll-off the subwoofer more steeply below system tuning. This will reduce the potential for the woofer to unload on strong infrasonic content.


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## Thunderheader (Jan 25, 2009)

I appreciate your advice Ed, thank you. Learning everyday!


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## Thunderheader (Jan 25, 2009)

The 13Ultra makes you want to learn more about FR and proper calibration. Before I owned the Ultra I had no idea about FR and sub calibration and all the other variables, i figured you just plug it in and turn it on and turn up the volume...quite the contrary, at least for me. I really appreciate all the input, thank you!


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

Gov said:


> So would my HSU 3.3 handle this scene better with one port blocked "Max Extension"?


Yes. It is very hot and low bass. If it is significantly below the tune and or capabilities of your subwoofer you'll need to be very careful when watching that movie.


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## lalakersfan34 (Oct 31, 2007)

Gov said:


> So would my HSU 3.3 handle this scene better with one port blocked "Max Extension"?


It's possible. My Epik Castle (tuning is 19hz, according to Chad) also has problems with this scene, and I get audible port noise. The Castle's amp uses a 12dB/octave subsonic filter at right about 20hz. Just for kicks, I purchased a 20hz 12dB/octave subsonic filter to see if it would make a difference. This gave me an effective 24dB/octave roll off and I have to say the scene had no port noise even at very spirited listening levels.

Keep in mind that while plugging a port in your Hsu 3.3 WILL help you achieve lower extension, it also reduces port area by 50%, meaning the subwoofer will be more susceptible to port noise. If my Castle with its 6" port had port noise on that scene, a Hsu 3.3 with a single 4" port will have even more. Still, it's worth a shot, and you might get away with it if you don't listen as loud as I do.


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## Gov (Nov 21, 2007)

Where can I purchase this filter? And would it be something I can leave on at all times?

Thanks


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

somebody teach me how the filters work ... i thought two 20hz 12db/octave slope filters = 40hz 24db/octave slope

that's why i set my SMS-1's subsonic filter to 5hz where it'd be far away from the built in sub amp filter.

OT: i set my room compensation setting to large instead of bypass and the HULK scene is ok again


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## lalakersfan34 (Oct 31, 2007)

Gov said:


> Where can I purchase this filter? And would it be something I can leave on at all times?
> 
> Thanks


Hi Gov,

The filter I purchased is a passive filter called an F-mod. Here's a link to the product I purchased:

http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=13

I can't understand why their website looks so horrible - (I couldn't do that if I tried...and I'm far from a design expert) - but the product does what it's supposed to.

One thing I thought I'd mention is that I bought the F-mods more as an experiment than anything else. My Castle rarely has trouble with bass in any movie, and the Hulk "sonic cannons" scene was pretty much an isolated incident. While the F-mod does eliminate port noise during that scene, it does so by creating a steeper roll-off below 20hz, meaning that other <20hz bass that _doesn't_ cause problems is reduced as well. Basically, when using the F-mod all subsonic bass is reduced. 

I recently took off the F-mod and I did notice an increase in really deep bass. I'm going to have to keep experimenting with it on and off to decide which way I prefer things. At some point I should take some REW measurements to see exactly what effect the F-mod had, but I do know that I hear a subjective difference. If (or when) I take measurements I'll be sure to share them.


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## Gov (Nov 21, 2007)

Thanks for the link! It does seem that "cannon" scene is problematic for a lot of people. I bet the LFE in that scene is recorded ridiculously hot! They got to back that stuff down a bit with uncompressed audio.


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## lalakersfan34 (Oct 31, 2007)

Gov said:


> Thanks for the link! It does seem that "cannon" scene is problematic for a lot of people. I bet the LFE in that scene is recorded ridiculously hot! They got to back that stuff down a bit with uncompressed audio.


That, or we need to "man up" and get capable subs


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

lalakersfan34 said:


> That, or we need to "man up" and get capable subs


LOL, well I wouldn't call the SVS PB13 Ultra incapable by any means. The OP and myself both have one and both of us had the sub bottom out during that scene. :hsd:


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## lalakersfan34 (Oct 31, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> LOL, well I wouldn't call the SVS PB13 Ultra incapable by any means. The OP and myself both have one and both of us had the sub bottom out during that scene. :hsd:


That was my point . Both the PB13-Ultra and Epik Castle are pretty amazing subwoofers, so it was more of a joke than anything.

Really, what it boils down to is once you're approaching 10hz, you're going to need either multiple sealed subs or a monster DIY ported subwoofer to have palpable bass (at least at the spirited levels many of us enjoy listening at ). It just isn't feasible for manufacturers to make ported subs with big enough enclosures to have 100+dB output at 10-12hz. The PB13-Ultra in 10hz mode (or even 15hz mode) simply doesn't have the port area to achieve high output at these frequencies without port noise. The same goes for my Castle with its 6" port.

I don't want sound engineers to change the bass content of their movies simply because some subwoofers (even very good subwoofers) can't keep up. I'm sure the dynamic range and depth found in many Blu-ray soundtracks will simply serve as an incentive for manufacturers to make even more capable subs. The strides that have been made in the last 5-10 years have been pretty amazing, and I look forward to seeing what can be done in the years to come.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

agreed :T


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## lalakersfan34 (Oct 31, 2007)

Again, the Ultra and subs in its class are great subs that can handle just about anything that's thrown at them. When you look at all of the great bass content out there and can only come up with a couple of isolated incidents in which these subs struggle, it's hard not to be impressed.


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## Gov (Nov 21, 2007)

^^^ agreed as well, however, I feel that any extremely hot LFE under 15hz is for the most part unnecessary to be there at all for 99.99% of all people into this hobby, and 100% of everyone else. I am sorry, subs like the PB13 and the Epik Castle are above average in caliber and should be able to play ANY and ALL Blu-ray's at near reference levels if properly calibrated without a sweat. I think when they record these movies they need to take this into consideration for most people (like me) with one capable subwoofer playing at or near 0db.

just my two cents :T


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

Gov said:


> ^^^ agreed as well, however, I feel that any extremely hot LFE under 15hz is for the most part unnecessary to be there at all for 99.99% of all people into this hobby, and 100% of everyone else. *I am sorry, subs like the PB13 and the Epik Castle are above average in caliber and should be able to play ANY and ALL Blu-ray's at near reference levels if properly calibrated without a sweat. * I think when they record these movies they need to take this into consideration for most people (like me) with one capable subwoofer playing at or near 0db.
> 
> just my two cents :T


But they can't. 

I disagree. These are great subs but they are not the end of the line. Saying that because one of these SW's gets stressed out and overdriven by a soundtrack means that the track was mixed and mastered wrong is just silly IMO. It means that it's time to turn it down a bit, upgrade, or add another sub. Any subwoofer or speaker system no matter how good can be overwhelmed at some point. It doesn't mean that the source material is bad. Art shouldn't be defined like that.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

http://www.chud.com/articles/articles/14884/1/HULK-EDIT/Page1.html



> We moved to the sound mixing screening room for the final scene, the opening of the Hulk/Abomination battle.





> We only got to see maybe three minutes of the fight, and it was just getting warmed up when they shut the projector down.


Moved to a different room for three minutes of footage? :scratch:


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## lalakersfan34 (Oct 31, 2007)

Thunderheader said:


> If tuning to the 15hz I could probably raise the level to 84db with Avia disc to compensate for the few db lost, additionally this setting would protect the sub from overdriving as it is tuned lower. SI this correct?


I didn't see this until now. _I wouldn't do that if I were you_. The 15hz tune does change the Ultras response curve very _slightly_, but the main thing you lose is headroom. From what I've read of Ultra users, the PB13-Ultra doesn't give up a whole lot of output capability going from the 20hz tune to the 15hz tune, but it does amount to a couple of dB in output.

If you tune the Ultra to 15hz, there's no need to "compensate" for the loss in headroom. It shouldn't affect your overall output until you reach the sub's limits, where the 20hz tune has a bit more oomph. 

IMO, it's a bad idea to calibrate the Ultra hotter in the 15hz tune, because that means you'll simply hit the Ultra's limits sooner at any given master volume listening level. You'll automatically have less headroom in the lower tune, and running it hotter gives you even less headroom.


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