# Best USB sound and midi module including Phantom mic input !



## imbeaujp

Hello, I think that I found an interesting product : Fast Track Pro - 4 x 4 Mobile USB Audio/MIDI Interface with Preamps
This external module includes :


Microphone XLR input with Phantom power to plug the EMC 8000 Mic. (replace my external mixer)
Midi interface to control the filters on the FeedBack Destroyer Pro
Digital and analog output to listen music on my HT from my PC

All that for less than 200$


What do you think guys ?


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## glaufman

On the surface it looks great... I wonder how it'll work... I've been dying to find one with a spdif in/out... 

Did you purchase? how's the cal look? 

Is it Vista compatible?


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## mojogoes

If it also had a soundcard incorperated it would be the dogs.


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## imbeaujp

Yes this is a USB soundcard, 24-bit/96kHz
Powered via USB or external Adapter
SNR -103 dB

PC: Windows XP (SP2)
Mac: OS X 10.3.9 / 10.4.2

Specifications HERE


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## mojogoes

imbeaujp said:


> Yes this is a USB soundcard, 24-bit/96kHz
> Powered via USB or external Adapter
> SNR -103 dB
> 
> PC: Windows XP (SP2)
> Mac: OS X 10.3.9 / 10.4.2
> 
> Specifications HERE



So let me get this right.....i would not need to buy a pre-amp for my mic/spl meter nor would i have to buy a sound blast live 24 sound card (phantom) plus neither would i after acquired a midi because this piece of kit does all three job of down loading from my laptop to the bfd..........is this right!!:jump::T

P.S....And what about the ADS-RDX MarkP does this also perform all three tasks.


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## imbeaujp

My understanding is that this product do it ALL !

No more need for an external sounblaster card, no more external mixer, no more external midi, all in one ! M-AUDIO is an AVID compagny. AVID is well knows for professional audio and video editing.

*But I did not test it. *This post is to get some feedback from members who knows that product.


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## mojogoes

Just confirmed with my stockest's that it will carry out all three duties , and as i took the sound card i bought back for a refund and would like to go down the midi route although i think that i may have one of the newer 1124p's which is having difficulties in receiving down loads from the pc/laptop.

Does any one know how soon the newer 1124p upgraded midi down load will be available.......is the sound-card in the fast-track pro ok for what we need.....connection wise etc etc.

Just recieved my Monolith a couple of hours ago and the quality of this unit for the money you spend is far higher than my expectations......i'm just braking it in nice and slowly but already it sounds flat and i have moved it from my first position which i suspected wasn't right with peaks and nulls i can hear..............its amazing how once you know what your listening for the faults seem to be amplified..............UFO's not included:devil:.


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## mojogoes

imbeaujp said:


> My understanding is that this product do it ALL !
> 
> No more need for an external sounblaster card, no more external mixer, no more external midi, all in one ! M-AUDIO is an AVID compagny. AVID is well knows for professional audio and video editing.
> 
> *But I did not test it. *This post is to get some feedback from members who knows that product.



Yeah as you say it looks good plus does the biz by the looks of things........i will send my Behringer mic800 back to where i bought it (£27+vat) and order one of these babies (£110+) should cut down on the mess on my table if nothing else.......but like you say it would be really good for someone who has used one or knows someone who has used one to speak up and report there findings.


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## mojogoes

Will it do what the mic100/mic800 and what this quoted s/c can do , mensioned in this thread......


> The real difference will come when you get a new preamp.
> 
> If you look at the specs it reads:
> 
> It features a carefully selected 12AX7 vacuum tube with UTC technology for exceptional warmth and lowest noise. Thus, the MIC100 can be used to eliminate the "dull" sound of standard digital recorders and sound cards. Also, it perfectly complements studio-grade condenser microphones. Dedicated Low Cut filter eliminates unwanted noise, e.g. floor rumble. .
> 
> hehehe, all this verbiage really means is that it has anything but a flat response that you would require for a piece of test equipment to measure a room using REW. The HPF look undefeatable, so your bottom end would be cut off; which may render it uncompensatable if attempting to include the preamp in the soundcard cal file.
> 
> You'd be better off with a solid state preamp that enjoys a flat response...
> 
> As far as the ECM8000 is concerned, we've checked a few (three I believe) and they've been identical....... I guess a larger sample would be better....
> 
> brucek


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## glaufman

So we're saying "Not appropriate for out kind of work, better to stick with the SB Live Ext?"


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## mojogoes

Is that how you interpreted it as.....i couldn't work it out one way or the other.......i have another problem my 1124p very lightly has the 1.3v firmware inplace so i would have to change it out first anyway for the newer 1.4v firmware via a new eprom chip after taking out the old one.........does anyone know if the UK 1124p version had the 1.4 firmware inplace at the get go or not.


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## imbeaujp

mojogoes said:


> Is that how you interpreted it as.....i couldn't work it out one way or the other.......i have another problem my 1124p very lightly has the 1.3v firmware inplace so i would have to change it out first anyway for the newer 1.4v firmware via a new eprom chip after taking out the old one.........does anyone know if the UK 1124p version had the 1.4 firmware inplace at the get go or not.


Hello, this thread is not for the 1124 firmware upgrade, the topic is the fast track pro sound card..


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## mojogoes

And i was just pointing out the fact that it would be a pointless exercise for me to purchase the fast track pro because of said fact in my last post........on top of which the fast track doesn't seem to be inline for what we would want it for.....or would it please do tell!!!


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## imbeaujp

No prolem Setphen, I understand you have to update your firmware first to use midi ports.

You will find more info on that issue on this thread : BFD 1124P Owners... the MIDI issue...


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## mojogoes

imbeaujp said:


> No prolem Stephen, I understand you have to update your firmware first to use midi ports.
> 
> You will find more info on that issue on this thread : BFD 1124P Owners... the MIDI issue...


Thanks for the url.....i have recently been told by brucek that after i carried out is instruction on how it obtain which firmware i had loaded from the getgo that it was v1.0 which means its good to go as is.....so i'm chuffed about that..........but unless someone can confirm to me that the M-audio fast track pro does exactly what we need/want i will just go out and buy either the S/B live24 or the mp3+ to try and keep things simple along with some form of behringer midi and keep the new B mic800 pre-amp i've just bought.


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## imbeaujp

I think I will get the fast Track pro on e-bay tonight. It should be delivered to me soon and I will keep you posted.

Bye !


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## stevenkelby

I hope it works! I want something like that. I have no idea what I'm doing, just started reading up a couple weeks ago and am confused, but plan to get buy a laptop, EMC 8000 and something like this Fast Track Pro, using REW so I can know what response I have in my room, then ask here what to do about! I want to measure it before I start with room treatment and/or EQ.

Let us know how it goes!


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## imbeaujp

Hello I just recieved it yesterday and did some test today. It is a WONDERFUL product. You got everything in one device, Midi Interface to control the FDP (how did I live without that !), the mic preamp and 2 channel mixer with phantom power to use my EMC8000 microphone, analog output, and digital coax input and outut (I use a PC as a mediacenter in my HT).

This device is really simple to use.

Here is the sound card response and some mesurements I did today:


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## m-fine

How is the sound card response down to 5-6 hz?


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## stevenkelby

The unit, and your subs, look pretty good!

How far away was the sub only measurement taking?

Do you use an external EQ?


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## stevenkelby

One thing, before logging into the forum I could see the file names and see what the measurements were. Now that I'm logged in, I can't see the filenames and there are no labels, so members might not know what the graphs show.


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## imbeaujp

stevenkelby said:


> The unit, and your subs, look pretty good!
> 
> How far away was the sub only measurement taking?
> 
> Do you use an external EQ?


Thanks !

The listening position is 13 feet from the subs. I used the EMC8000 microphone at the listening position.

I got the DSP1124P and I am currently using 3 to 5 filters, not more.

JP


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## stevenkelby

Thanks JP, you're subs look really good. I have no measurement/EQ gear yet, am researching. I plan on an EMC8000 though, and probably the FSP as you ar having success with it!

I just want to measure first, then room treatment, than EQ (maybe RANE RPM 26Z).

How does your 1124 know what to do? Does REW program it, then once unplugged from the PC, does it remember the settings? Or is there another program for the 1124?

Thanks!


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## stevenkelby

One more thing, do you want to EQ your mains to match the target curve, and can you do that with the 1124?

I re-read you posts agin, what's an FDP?


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## imbeaujp

Hello, FDP is for FeedBack Desroyer Pro = DSP1124P

You have an EQ screen in REW where you can apply filters manualy and then see the predicted result. When your filters are done, you can manualy enter the parameters in the DSP1124 or, if you have set the midi interface, send the filters to the DSP (verry nice feature to use the midi link). REW also have an automated fonction to find peeks and to apply filters to correct them. Buy with some practice, I think that you would like, like me, to do that process manualy.

Important : The REW help and BFD tutorial and help files are VERRY USEFUL. But like many, I must admit that I prefer to experience it myself and after that reading the manual !! But, my good advice for anyone is to READ first, experiment, and READ AGAIN. I am on the READ AGAIN stage now... 

JP


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## m-fine

JP, when you get a chance, can you please post a graph of the sound card calibration from about 5 hz to 100 or 200. I am interested in this unit but I would like to minimize the ammount of correction I am adding down deep relative to the measured signal.

Thanks


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## stevenkelby

I stopped getting notifications for this thread for some reason. I am getting a Fast track pro and ECM8000 now thanks partly to this thread.

JP, does the midi interface work to send a signal to other units, or only the DSP1124 ?

I am thinking of a Rane RPM26Z to EQ my whole system, not just subs as most people here seem to do. Do you EQ your full system?

I've started the REW help files but read slow.

Thanks,

Steve.


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## m-fine

As the frequency gets higher, the peaks and nulls affect smaller and smaller areas, or in other words the variation from seat to seat become greater. For that reason I think room treatments are a better solution above 100 hz or so, and any EQ used to treat resonance above a few hundred hz can make things much worse for those not sitting exactly where the mic was. You can still use full range EQ to do things like gently roll off the high frequencies (upper end house curve) but I would not attempt to flatten out the room response.


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## stevenkelby

m-fine said:


> As the frequency gets higher, the peaks and nulls affect smaller and smaller areas, or in other words the variation from seat to seat become greater. For that reason I think room treatments are a better solution above 100 hz or so, and any EQ used to treat resonance above a few hundred hz can make things much worse for those not sitting exactly where the mic was. You can still use full range EQ to do things like gently roll off the high frequencies (upper end house curve) but I would not attempt to flatten out the room response.


Thanks for that. So do you still measure the mid and high frequencies to know what kind of room treatment to do, or is it normal just to use generic treatments like panels at 1st reflection points etc?

JP, sorry for going OT!


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## imbeaujp

stevenkelby said:


> I stopped getting notifications for this thread for some reason. I am getting a Fast track pro and ECM8000 now thanks partly to this thread.
> 
> JP, does the midi interface work to send a signal to other units, or only the DSP1124 ?
> 
> Steve.


This is a midi interface, so it works with any midi device supported by REW.


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## m-fine

stevenkelby said:


> Thanks for that. So do you still measure the mid and high frequencies to know what kind of room treatment to do, or is it normal just to use generic treatments like panels at 1st reflection points etc?
> 
> JP, sorry for going OT!


Normally you use generic treatments in the corners and on any large reflective surfaces you can get away with treating. Putting a panel at the first reflection points has other benefits but the impact on resonace is not much different than other reflective locations. You may want to just treat the room and measure the change with your ears. If you measure accurately in 1/48th octave detail, you will end up seeing how bad your room response really is which is usually not comforting since it is nearly impossible to completely fix. Ignorance is bliss here.


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## Dundas

Tascam seems to have similar products (US122-L & US144) that sell for a little less. They aren't Vista compatible is the M-Audio?

http://www.tascam.com/catalogue;40,15.html


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## Guest

i decided to go with the m-audio fast track pro. i will be using it for other things as well, but for this project (analyzing a car or a room audio system) it will work well with a behringer mic. I read the bit about calibrating a pc - TRUE RTA for dummies (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...=572477&page=6) but am a little confused because of the multitude of in/outputs on the fast track pro. there are 2 balanced inputs for 2 microphones. these inputs are actually combo jacks that accomodate either an xlr(for a mic) or a TS(for a guitar or keyboard)

i assume to calibrate this device, i would need to go from the balanced trs outputs to the balanced mic inputs, yes? this would require male TRS-> male XLR

Or should i go this way: rca output -> TS male mic connection?

or should i go from headphone jack->splitter-> 2 TS male mic connections

what about the voltages-if i use the headphone vs balanced out(TRS) vs unbalanced out(rca) and pipe that into the microphone input---wont i blow the mic input? after all the real microphone usually does not supply voltage and phantom power is coming out of the microphone jack. In setting up a calibration loop, we are piping voltage into the microphone circuit.


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## brucek

> assume to calibrate this device, i would need to go from the balanced trs outputs to the balanced mic inputs, yes?


Nope. You don't include the mic preamp section in the soundcard calibration. You connect from line-out to line-in. The small difference the mic section makes is not significant.

brucek


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## Guest

line out and line in on the pc are not used--the m-audio device hooks up via usb. i am asking which out/inputs on it are used to create the loop for calibration.


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## glaufman

bwana said:


> line out and line in on the pc are not used--the m-audio device hooks up via usb. i am asking which out/inputs on it are used to create the loop for calibration.


I'm pretty sure Bruce doesn't mean to use the line in/out on the pc, but rather line in/out on the m-audio... specifically, the unbalanced ones...

I didn't read much above to see exactly what you're doing, but assuming youp're looking to run scans the way most of us do, albeit in your car, I think you'll want to send REW's (or TrueRTA's for that matter) output to your system via the line out (unbalanced) on the m-audio, so this way to capture that output's characteristics in the calibration file.

Bruce's point is that then switching from the unbalanced line in to the balanced "mic" in with the phantom power will introduce errors, but so small as to be negligible...

It certainly looks (from the specs) that the balanced input on the m-audio cannot handle the full scale input from it's own balanced output...


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## brucek

> I'm pretty sure Bruce doesn't mean to use the line in/out on the pc, but rather line in/out on the m-audio... specifically, the unbalanced ones...


Exactly.....................

brucek


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## Guest

glaufman said:


> I'm pretty sure Bruce doesn't mean to use the line in/out on the pc, but rather line in/out on the m-audio... specifically, the unbalanced ones...
> 
> I didn't read much above to see exactly what you're doing, but assuming youp're looking to run scans the way most of us do, albeit in your car, I think you'll want to send REW's (or TrueRTA's for that matter) output to your system via the line out (unbalanced) on the m-audio, so this way to capture that output's characteristics in the calibration file.
> 
> Bruce's point is that then switching from the unbalanced line in to the balanced "mic" in with the phantom power will introduce errors, but so small as to be negligible...
> 
> It certainly looks (from the specs) that the balanced input on the m-audio cannot handle the full scale input from it's own balanced output...


EXACTLY! and yes tnx bruce.

to summarize, i have 2 choices for a calibration loop- 
1)unbalanced rca out to TS input in the combo jack
2) trs balanced out to xlr in into combo jack

Obviously the measurements will be done with the rca out to the line in of the head unit and the mic will be xlr. so it seems from the above discussion that the appropriate calibration loop is #1 above. yes?


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## glaufman

Yup


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## Guest

well , i did that and i followed the true RTA guide for dummies at the avsforum (audio setup section) i got a jiggly line that sort of trended up but a few secs later became flatter. nothing like the smooth line in the tutorial.


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## glaufman

bwana said:


> well , i did that and i followed the true RTA guide for dummies at the avsforum (audio setup section) i got a jiggly line that sort of trended up but a few secs later became flatter. nothing like the smooth line in the tutorial.


You got a "jiggly line" in TrueRTA or REW? Although I've played around with TrueRTA (the free, 1 octave resolution version) I'm not very familiar with it... but unlike REW, it only works as an RTA, so you have to let it average over time before you get anything significant...

Why not try using REW and see what results you get?


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## stevenkelby

Thanks for the info.



glaufman said:


> It certainly looks (from the specs) that the balanced input on the m-audio cannot handle the full scale input from it's own balanced output...


So what units can? What are the competition/alternatives?


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## glaufman

stevenkelby said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> 
> 
> So what units can? What are the competition/alternatives?


Dunno... that's one reason to use the line in/out for cal...


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## stevenkelby

glaufman said:


> Dunno... that's one reason to use the line in/out for cal...


Ah ok, so that would of course correct the error and the fast track pro would be accurate again?

Close to buying one today.


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## m-fine

stevenkelby said:


> What are the competition/alternatives?


TASCAM US122L if you do not need digial ins and outs TASCAM 144 if you do. Note that the digital outs also can not be calibrated, so are not recomended for REW use.


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## stevenkelby

m-fine said:


> TASCAM US122L if you do not need digial ins and outs TASCAM 144 if you do. Note that the digital outs also can not be calibrated, so are not recomended for REW use.


Cool thanks.

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Tascam US-122L

Didn't have many good reviews on Amazon but I didn't look elsewhere. DO you think it's better than the FTP?

Too late anyway, I just bought a FTP, ECM8000 and CM-130 from Amazon.

Just need a laptop now...

At least I can use the FTP to rip vinyl to digital, will set up the TT on my desk.


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## m-fine

stevenkelby said:


> DO you think it's better than the FTP?


I think it has less low frequency roll off. I think that is probably better for REW use where you care about the 5-15 hz range since you have a higher ratio of measured signal to calibration correction (mic plus SC), but honestly I am not sure it makes much difference at all. I would love to measure the pre-amp stage on the two units to compare but that is not a simple task.

The TASCAM's had some negative reviews because it took them a VERY long time to get Vista support. As for XP use, the included driver works fine. Plug in in and go. The unit seems very solid with an aluminum body and low profile dials that should survive in a gear bag. I can not comment on the other software provided because I only use mine for REW and as a USB sound card/headphone amp.


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## brucek

> I would love to measure the pre-amp stage on the two units to compare but that is not a simple task.


Why is it not simple? Instead of a loopback cable on the right channel (which would measure as perfectly flat), you include the preamp or any line level device in that loop and take a full range measure. It will show the devices response from 0Hz to 20KHz....

brucek


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## m-fine

brucek said:


> Why is it not simple? Instead of a loopback cable on the right channel (which would measure as perfectly flat), you include the preamp or any line level device in that loop and take a full range measure. It will show the devices response from 0Hz to 20KHz....
> 
> brucek


You have a line level RCA out which you would want to route to a balanced mic level in. Wouldn't you need a device in the middle to convert to balanced? Then you would introduce whatever error that is inherent in that device. If I could just calibrate with an RCA to XLR cable I would, but I thought that was a no no.


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## stevenkelby

m-fine said:


> You have a line level RCA out which you would want to route to a balanced mic level in. Wouldn't you need a device in the middle to convert to balanced? Then you would introduce whatever error that is inherent in that device. If I could just calibrate with an RCA to XLR cable I would, but I thought that was a no no.


I'm not 100%, but I think you can just make a cable to go from RCA to XLR and that's fine.

The bit about it being mic level, I'm not sure about though, in fact I have no idea! If it's ok for the signal level to be the same then yeah, you can just make a cable to do it. Like cable #17 at the bottom here:

http://www.rane.com/note110.html


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## brucek

> You have a line level RCA out which you would want to route to a balanced mic level in.


Oh, you're talking about measuring the mic stage (not the preamp stage). Yeah, you can't really do that. 

brucek


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## m-fine

brucek said:


> Oh, you're talking about measuring the mic stage (not the preamp stage). Yeah, you can't really do that.
> 
> brucek


It CAN be done, it just is not easy  

After thinking about it for a while, I think I can do it with my DCX. I can go into the behringer with the RCA to XLR cable, then go out (no filters) balanced to the mic in. I can also come out of the behringer to an unbalanced line in to control for the response errors of the DCX. I know the behringer can handle unbalanced inputs and both balanced and unbalanced output so that just might do the trick. 

I am sure you could also make a relatively simple circuit board to convert the unbalaced out to balanced but I am not sure if that would introduce any significant error. 

All this to get a precise measurement at 6 or 7 hz where no EQ I know of can be used to tune the signal anyway


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## WmAx

Another similar product, just as an option, with MIDI support and phantom mic power is the E-MU 0404USB. This product has reference quality measured behaviors(s) to boot, as verified by *[1]*3rd party measurements. In addition, the 0404USB device can be used without a computer as high quality stand-alone mic-preamp and/or ADC or DAC, with both coaxial and optical digital I/Os.

-Chris

Footnotes
*[1]*E-MU 0404 USB - A Top-Class External Audio Interface
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/proaudio/emu-0404-usb.html


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## JohnM

The ART dualPre looks like it could also be an economical option for a soundcard/mic preamp with phantom power, though it does not have any midi features. With independent left/right input gains it would allow straightforward line level loopback for the reference channel. The "monitor" outputs carry the signal from the PC/Mac when the mix knob is turned fully to the "Computer" position. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/USBDualPre


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## BigPines

brucek said:


> Nope. You don't include the mic preamp section in the soundcard calibration. You connect from line-out to line-in. The small difference the mic section makes is not significant.
> 
> brucek


I hate to be dense but I still don't understand the best way to calibrate this unit. It seems to work if I use 1/4" TRS out to 1/4" TRS in (is this not using the mic preamp?). It also seems to work if I use RCA out to 1/4" in but I get different results. Neither of the results look like imbeaujp's graphs posted on the fist page of this thread. Am I doing this wrong? :wits-end:

Maybe I am missing something important but I would rather use the balanced TRS lines if possible because that is what my speakers are hooked up to. It also looks *MUCH* flatter. I would not have expected this much variation.

Mike


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## BigPines

Unless I am totally confused, I think the balanced out to in via 1/4" TRS cable works beautifully. Here is my reality check measurement after applying the cal file for the FastTrack Pro.

So is this accounting for the mic preamp or not?

I am still confused and a bit concerned by the apparent poor response using the RCA outputs.

Mike


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## brucek

> I think the balanced out to in via 1/4" TRS cable works beautifully


Great. 



> So is this accounting for the mic preamp or not?


No, the mic preamp is used when the XLR mic-in is used.

The reality check looks good. Carry on. I wouldn't be concerned about the minor difference the mic preamp would make. You can see the small debate about that here. Read the whole thread.

brucek


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## BigPines

brucek said:


> ...the mic preamp is used when the XLR mic-in is used.
> 
> The reality check looks good. Carry on. I wouldn't be concerned about the minor difference the mic preamp would make. You can see the small debate about that here. Read the whole thread.
> 
> brucek


Thanks Brucek!

I guess I am confused because my understanding is that the 1/4" TRS input is exactly the same as using the XLR input (The FTP has a combined input jack) but it is just a different connector on the wire. Is this not the case?

Mike


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## brucek

> my understanding is that the 1/4" TRS input is exactly the same as using the XLR input


You haven't said what type of soundcard you have, so it's hard for me to know. But most 1/4" phone jacks are for line-in and XLR are for the mic. Just look it up in your manual. It will tell you. The mic-in will be extremely high gain and would require a pad attenuator to reduce the line -level coming from the line-out to make it work in a loopback. Read the link I posted above to understand about that.

brucek


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## BigPines

brucek said:


> You haven't said what type of soundcard you have, so it's hard for me to know. But most 1/4" phone jacks are for line-in and XLR are for the mic. Just look it up in your manual. It will tell you. The mic-in will be extremely high gain and would require a pad attenuator to reduce the line -level coming from the line-out to make it work in a loopback. Read the link I posted above to understand about that.
> 
> brucek


Thanks, the link you provided is exactly what I am talking about. However, I don't understand all the electrical engineering tech talk. You seem to have a much better handle on all this than I do. Maybe I'll have to post over there in order to figure this out.

Sorry you are correct. I have the M-Audio FastTrack Pro and the Behringer ECM8000. I thought is thread was specific to the FastTrack Pro but there have been several alternatives mentioned since it was started.

Anyway, the FastTrack Pro has two XLR and 1/4" TRS combo jacks as the only inputs (see pictures in the first post). Page three of the manual says:

"Microphone/Instrument Inputs (Mic/Inst) – These Neutrik hybrid connectors will each accept a low-impedance mic level signal on a standard three-pin *balanced XLR or TRS plug*, or a high-impedance instrument level signal on an *unbalanced 1/4” TS plug*."

Page fourteen of the manual has the detailed specs:

Mic Inputs (A/D):
Input Impedance: 2.7k Ohms unbalanced, 5.4k Ohms balanced
Maximum Input Level: from +24dBu @ min gain, pad on to -40dBu @ max gain, no pad
Preamp Gain: >40dB
Pad: -20dB pad

Line Inputs (A/D):
Input Impedance: 20k Ohms balanced and unbalanced
Maximum Input Level: +4.1dBu balanced/+1.9dBV unbalanced
Pad -20dB pad

Line Outputs (D/A)
Output Impedance: 150 Ohms unbalanced, 300 Ohms balanced
Maximum Output Level: +1.8dBV, unbalanced/+10.1dBu, balanced

:scratch: So I am still confused. Given that I am going from the balanced 1/4" TRS outputs to the balanced 1/4" TRS inputs in the loopback without using the available pad attenuator or instrument switch, it would seem as though I am including the mic preamp but I just don't know now.

Sorry I am such a newbie. Since it is the same physical input, I am confused about how I can know if I am using the input as a 1/4" balanced Mic input or a 1/4" balanced line input since it apparently matters. I thought as long as I was not using the instrument switch on the input, I was using the low-impedance mic level input.

Mike


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## brucek

> So I am still confused.


Yeah, it is somewhat confusing. I think it matters not whether you're using balanced or unbalanced with respect to whether you're using mic preamp or not. I believe the mic preamp is used either way.

The confusion I have is whether they bypass the mic preamp and go directly to the line stage when using the Instrument/Line Selector Button. From the quote below in the manual it appears when using the 1/4" connection that they might bypass the mic preamp.

_4. Instrument/Line Selector Button (Inst/Line) – This button selects the input level of the front panel 1⁄4” inputs. In the out position, the inputs are set to accept an instrument level signal (such as that from a guitar or bass) while in the in position they are set to accept a line level input (such as that from a keyboard or drum machine). *Please note that the XLR input level is unaffected by this switch.*_

Since you are sending line-level to it with the loopback connection, you would want to have that button set to in, which may bypass the preamp.

The only way to be sure is to use the XLR input and use the pad button (very convenient) to lower the level into the mic preamp.

brucek


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## BigPines

Thanks!

I will get a cable that goes from 1/4" to XLR and do it that way. Then it sounds like I am guaranteed to be using the mic preamp. So since the input has a built-in pad, I don't need to soldier one up like people are doing in the other thread right? It looks like I have everything I need on the unit itself to measure the audio interface and the mic preamp (as long as I use the XLR input) right? Again, it probably makes little difference anyway but if I can do it, why not?

Thanks for your help. I would have never figured this out on my own.

Mike


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## brucek

> So since the input has a built-in pad, I don't need to soldier one up like people are doing in the other thread right?


Correct.



> It looks like I have everything I need on the unit itself to measure the audio interface and the mic preamp (as long as I use the XLR input) right?


Correct.



> Again, it probably makes little difference anyway but if I can do it, why not?


Yep, it never hurts to remove *all* the bias that your test equipment introduces to testing. That way you know the response graphs are as accurate as possible.

brucek


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## Hunter844

So what is the consensus on this product or others very similar? I read through the thread but I just never really got a firm feeling on it. 

I'll be starting fresh so I if I can streamline this from the start...I assume that would be the thing to do.

I already have a ECM8000, Radio Shack Digital SPL, Laptop running XP, external creative live 24-bit sound card, REW downloaded, and plenty of RCA cables. 

Currently I'm looking for a BFD and was looking for a mic preamp/mixer like the 502. But now I'm thinking about getting the M-Audio Fast Track Pro instead of the 502.

I want to be able to communicate directly with the BFD via computer so I would either have to get the expensive USB to MIDI converter cable ($40 is expensive to me) or just get midi cables to go from this M-Audio device to the BFD which I assume can be had for a lot less than any converter cable.

Anyway...looking for additional thoughts. I think for me it would be cheaper to get the external mixer and cable...think I can get a cheaper cable if I look hard enough...just wonder if all of those cables are basically the same or is there some real good reasons for the ones suggested in the REW FAQ and not others.


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## brucek

> just wonder if all of those cables are basically the same or is there some real good reasons for the ones suggested in the REW FAQ and not others.


Anything that works will do. There's nothing special about the ones recommended....

brucek


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## BigPines

Hunter844 said:


> So what is the consensus on this product or others very similar? I read through the thread but I just never really got a firm feeling on it.
> 
> I'll be starting fresh so I if I can streamline this from the start...I assume that would be the thing to do.
> 
> I already have a ECM8000, Radio Shack Digital SPL, Laptop running XP, external creative live 24-bit sound card, REW downloaded, and plenty of RCA cables.
> 
> Currently I'm looking for a BFD and was looking for a mic preamp/mixer like the 502. But now I'm thinking about getting the M-Audio Fast Track Pro instead of the 502.
> 
> I want to be able to communicate directly with the BFD via computer so I would either have to get the expensive USB to MIDI converter cable ($40 is expensive to me) or just get midi cables to go from this M-Audio device to the BFD which I assume can be had for a lot less than any converter cable.
> 
> Anyway...looking for additional thoughts. I think for me it would be cheaper to get the external mixer and cable...think I can get a cheaper cable if I look hard enough...just wonder if all of those cables are basically the same or is there some real good reasons for the ones suggested in the REW FAQ and not others.


From my perspective, the FastTrack Pro is tough to beat. You get everything in one box so it is very convenient and when you consider to price of getting each piece separate, it isn't a bad deal at all. I have played with mine for a while now and I am very happy with it. If you get this cable: http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10244&cs_id=1024404&p_id=4775&seq=1&format=2 you can calibrate the mic preamp and audio interface at the same time. All I can say is that I have been very happy with the FastTrack Pro and would recommend it to anyone. It is a good product and a good value.

That being said, it sounds like you already have most of what you need so if you are on a tight budget (and who isn't these days) then there is no harm in going the separate (cheaper) route. You'll just have more boxes/cables to manage - no big deal.

Mike


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## Hunter844

BigPines said:


> That being said, it sounds like you already have most of what you need so if you are on a tight budget (and who isn't these days) then there is no harm in going the separate (cheaper) route. You'll just have more boxes/cables to manage - no big deal.
> 
> Mike


I opted for an ebay a slightly used Eurorack UB502...should work fine for my needs. Now it's just a matter of getting everything else on order. I'm holding out for an ebay and BFD 1124 so nobody try to beat me out. :bigsmile:

I won't mind the added expense down the line if I get more and more interested in using REW and whatnot. 

Stupid question that probably belongs in the BFD forum: 

What happens to the programming in the BFD if the power goes out suddenly?


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## brucek

> Eurorack UB502


I don't believe the 502 has phantom power. You need the 802 or higher to get it.



> What happens to the programming in the BFD if the power goes out suddenly?


It remembers the informations - no problem.

brucek


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## Hunter844

brucek said:


> I don't believe the 502 has phantom power. You need the 802 or higher to get it.
> 
> 
> It remembers the informations - no problem.
> 
> brucek



Unless I'm reading the specs wrong it does. The way it reads it's got everything the others have in that model line except for a power amplifier which I'm not totally sure is all that important.

http://www.behringerdownload.de/UB-GROUP_1/IMPL%20Tech%20GLOB_P0180_M%20Web%20EN_2008-06-19_Rev.5.pdf

EDIT:
I think that manual is just confusing the way it's written now that I look at the picture there isn't a switch...looks like that's going right back on ebay. Hopefully i can get my money back out of it.

EDIT: Scramble Mode

Is there a MIC that would suffice for usage with REW in lieu of not being able to use phantom power? I'm real sure I can sell the MIC I've got pretty easy but unloading this UB502 might prove a bit more challenging.


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## brucek

> Is there a MIC that would suffice for usage with REW in lieu of not being able to use phantom power?


None that I know of.....

brucek


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## thebuffman

okay, i have a splitting headache from being confused even though i know my confusion is unwarranted and will be realized once i get past this learning curve. i'm doing wiki lookups on the difference between balanced and un-balanced cabling so you know what level of audio smarts i am up to right now :mooooh:

anyhoo i am hoping someone can help me since i have deviated from the basic manual of how to hook up your sound card with rew and went the route with m-audio fast track pro. i picked this solution because its low cost for me since a buddy of mine works in audio and let me borrow his m-audio fast track pro device, xlr cable and his paa3 analyzer. aside from his gear i also have the FBD Pro 1124p, ecm8000, mic stand and an old sound card. 

just to see if i was getting sound recording from the mic thru the m-audio ftp device to my computer via usb, i popped in a music cd and played some jams while watching REW graphs. sad to say i am not seeing a thing. i configured the REW software same as i would for an external sound blaster live card but this yielded nothing. i am not sure what buttons to depress on the m-audio ftp device either to know if i am doing something wrong. at this point i just want to see a graph being formed in REW. 

if anyone know of a 10 step process i can follow i would greatly appreciate it.


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## brucek

Before you do anything you have to create a soundcard calibration file.

Remove all cables and connect a single cable from line-out to line-in and create the file.

This will tell you a lot about what's working and what's not working....

brucek


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