# Onkyo 809 vs Pioneer SC-1222-K



## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

My Onkyo unit is still within return period. After reading a ton about it, starting to get paranoid about HDMI failures down the road (other issues too, but minor....like the Net feature that stops working sometimes, etc)

I havent experienced any of the issues yet, presumably since ive only had mine for a few weeks.

Now Newegg has the Pioneer SC-1222 for a really good price. Its still a little more than what I paid for the Onkyo, but Im wondering if its a good investment. Will the Pioneer be more reliable, especially in the HDMI area (since Im using the avr as an HDMI switch)

Pros for the Pioneer:
D3 amps - run cooler, supposedly better sound quality but not sure

HDMI pass through in standby - uses a lot less power than the same feature of the Onkyo. Can also switch inputs with the receiver in standby which the Onkyo cannot do

Presumably more reliable, but hard to find reviews on it. Why is it so cheap even though its only 5 months old? Dunno.

Pros for Onkyo:

100.00 cheaper

Audyssey - more well known, seems to need less tweaks than MCACC, but the Pioneer setup is tweakable without overriding the automatic stuff (Audyssey is set it and better forget it or else you end up doing it all yourself)

MUCH better on-screen display. Can change everything while looking on-screen, Pioneer is not even close

X-over settings for each speaker, vs Pioneer that has one global setting

Any opinions? I realize there are pros and cons in everything, but number one for me right now is reliability. Dont want the call from the wife that they cant see any video because the Onkyo HDMI board went out.

Thanks in advance.

-Chris


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

chrisexv6 said:


> My Onkyo unit is still within return period. After reading a ton about it, starting to get paranoid about HDMI failures down the road (other issues too, but minor....like the Net feature that stops working sometimes, etc)
> 
> I havent experienced any of the issues yet, presumably since ive only had mine for a few weeks.
> 
> ...


Chris,
Welcome to HTS. I would highly recommend searching for the TX-NR809 here on our forums as literally hundreds of folks here have purchased one and the reliability has been quite good.

Even at AVSForum where I am guessing you are finding much of your reason for concern, it really was the older x05, x06, x07 and a smaller number of x08's that have had the most HDMI issues. Moreover, the x09 Series, including your 809 represented a very large redesign whereas the 05, 06, 07, and x08's look virtually identical. The x08 did incorporate a redesigned HDMI Board that was incorporated on repaired x07's. Also, if heat is a concern, adding a PC Fan is a quite popular thing to do.

In addition to the above pros for the Onkyo is the stellar HQV Vida Video Processor. However, the Pioneer does offer AirPlay and they make a very reliable AVR. I do prefer Audyssey over MCACC, but if you are going to be using the 809 constantly concerned that the other shoe is going to drop I would go ahead and get the Pioneer.
Cheers,
J


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

Thanks for the advice!

Shortly after getting the Onkyo I went thru this same dilemma. Back then (like it was so long ago, try 2 weeks!) I decided Id just stick with the Onkyo. 

As I roam around the internet I keep seeing deals on other avrs and always wonder in the back of my mind if they would be worth it.

Alas, this dilemma is solved for now....Newegg bumped the price back up (was it an error? who knows....judging from the past amount of times its dropped to around that price, its NOT an error and will probably come around again)

I did get most of my info from AVSForum, makes me start to wonder if most of the haters just show up there and no where else 

Advantage, Onkyo: the exhaust doesnt vent out the side of the unit like the Pio, I would have had to do some surgery on our entertainment shelving since the Pioneer is such a wide unit (plenty of room ABOVE it, only 1" to each side). Onkyo is the same width but doesnt have any vent openings on the side.

Thanks for the encouragement....Ill let it live on for now.

-Chris


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

I'd bet you'd be happy with either unit. I don't think it's necessary to stress about it too much. I've been a pioneer/elite owner for years - great AVRs. After struggling to master it, I've become a big fan of MCACC for many of the reasons you read about online. 

I vote for sticking with your Onkyo. Get to know it well. Re-read reviews for the unit - you'll find that the reviews start to make more sense as you become familiar with handling and using it.... This is a great way to really nail down likes and dislikes. If you find the dislikes are a burden, sell it for a loss and get seething else.


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

Thanks for the info. 

Im actually on my second 809, the first one just didnt sound right. Second one sounded much better, but Im wondering if it was just the conditions I ran Audyssey under. Since I cant see exactly what it did (aside from xover values), its hard to know what might have been different.

Still a dilemma though, keep seeing such great reviews of the sound quality on the Pio. If I want to pay a restock fee from Best Buy I can get an SC61 to listen to and compare directly to the 809, but really dont feel like paying them 100.00 just for the privilege.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

chrisexv6 said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Im actually on my second 809, the first one just didnt sound right. Second one sounded much better, but Im wondering if it was just the conditions I ran Audyssey under. Since I cant see exactly what it did (aside from xover values), its hard to know what might have been different.
> 
> Still a dilemma though, keep seeing such great reviews of the sound quality on the Pio. If I want to pay a restock fee from Best Buy I can get an SC61 to listen to and compare directly to the 809, but really dont feel like paying them 100.00 just for the privilege.


Hello,
I am guessing most definitely that it was Audyssey and that the first 809 was fine. I did not realize the BB charges a Restocking Fee for returns these days.

Regardless, I am getting the impression that the Pioneer is the AVR you really want. As AVR's are something folks tend to keep for a decent number of years, I would not let $100 dissuade you. Moreover, should anything happen to the Onkyo requiring repair, I really think it will especially bother you.
J


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

chrisexv6 said:


> Thanks for the info.
> 
> Im actually on my second 809, the first one just didnt sound right. Second one sounded much better, but Im wondering if it was just the conditions I ran Audyssey under. Since I cant see exactly what it did (aside from xover values), its hard to know what might have been different.
> 
> Still a dilemma though, keep seeing such great reviews of the sound quality on the Pio. If I want to pay a restock fee from Best Buy I can get an SC61 to listen to and compare directly to the 809, but really dont feel like paying them 100.00 just for the privilege.


I've only ever fooled around with Audyssey when helping friends with their systems... I didn't know that you couldn't access the EQ settings that they software was applying. Hmmm. The one nice thing about MCACC is that it really allows you to tweak everything. As you pointed out, it doesn't allow you to have independent crossover settings for each speaker... nor does it EQ your sub (outside of setting sub distance). That's a very easy fix, though, and I've read that some argue a stand-alone parametric equalizer is superior to letting audyssey EQ your sub. Honestly, though, I've never used Audyssey in that regard and really have never taken the time to learn that much about it.

If you can afford it, buy the pioneer unit and have a little shoot-out! ;-) That would solve your curiosity really fast...


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

I know it sounds like I want the Pio  but I keep finding reasons stopping me!

The fan exits on the side, but the unit is so wide there isnt much side to side clearance where I have it. The Onkyo is the same width but exits out the top (well, the vents are on the top, the only fans are on the bottom in the front for intake)

Id LOVE to have a shootout, problem being Newegg charges restock fee just like BB. 15% I think, on a 550.00 purchase its a decent chunk of change to spend and have nothing to show for it. If only Amazon was still stocking it!


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Check the authorized dealer list on pioneer's site. Maybe there's another site that carries it. Word to the wise: you wouldn't want to buy from amazon anyway. I could be wrong about this, but I don't think they are an authorized dealer of pioneer AVRs. Pioneer doesn't honor warranties from unathorized dealers - again, you'll need to check their list...


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

27dnast said:


> Check the authorized dealer list on pioneer's site. Maybe there's another site that carries it. Word to the wise: you wouldn't want to buy from amazon anyway. I could be wrong about this, but I don't think they are an authorized dealer of pioneer AVRs. Pioneer doesn't honor warranties from unathorized dealers - again, you'll need to check their list...


Pioneer doesnt warranty ELITE units purchased online. Luckily, the 1222-K is not an Elite unit. Its just a really close copy of one


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Yes, that's true... but read this carefully:

_Manufacturer’s warranty and rebate are not valid when you purchase from an unauthorized dealer. Only Pioneer-branded products* (not Elite-branded products) purchased from a Pioneer Authorized Home Entertainment Internet Dealer qualify for the manufacturer's limited warranty._


Pretty much says it... you can buy Pioneer AVRs online BUT the warranty is only valid if it is purchased from an authorized dealer. I was mistaken, tho... Amazon is on their list. Where you need to be careful, though, is that you aren't buying off Amazon from one of their MarketPlace dealers... unless, of course, that dealer is also on their authorized dealer list.:T


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## eyekode (Jan 19, 2008)

newegg is an authorized pio dealer so no worries there.
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ized+Internet+Dealers?appInstanceName=default


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

Yeah, Newegg is good to go.

Looking at MCACC, trying to figure out if the global xover value thing is going to be an issue for me:

My L/C/R will be capable of decent bass (Overnight Sensation design by Paul Carmody), they start to roll off around 50Hz.

My surrounds are tiny cube things, since we have an open floor plan I didnt want honkin bookshelf size speakers sitting out in the middle of walls and open areas.

Since I can only have one xover value Im not quite sure how best to handle it. Audyssey recommended 150Hz for the surrounds and 70Hz for my current mains (which arent OS design, take it with a grain of salt). If I cross everything at 150 Ill lose bass from the fronts. If I cross everything at 70 (or 80 just to match THX spec) Ill blow the surrounds at some point.

I know setting the fronts to Large will allow the bass to get to them, but then it would be *too* low, no? Cant send 20Hz to an L/C/R with just 2 midrange drivers and a tweeter.

Since Ive never had an avr with a global xover value Ive never had to deal with it. I understand Pioneers reasoning for doing it that way, but it seems like my situation would be pretty common....never really seen the need for large surround speakers (unless you are doing SACD, DVD-A, etc. which probably isnt the norm), but plenty of people with big speakers up front.


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## vann_d (Apr 7, 2009)

chrisexv6 said:


> Yeah, Newegg is good to go.
> 
> Looking at MCACC, trying to figure out if the global xover value thing is going to be an issue for me:
> 
> ...


Easy solution here but I'm assuming you have a capable subwoofer. Set all you speaker crossovers to 150 Hz. You will not be losing any bass. In fact, you will be gaining headroom because you will not be requiring your OS mains to reproduce the low frequencies that your subwoofer is much more capable of producing.

This is not a knock on the Overnight Sensations, but I would never run them to 50 Hz in a home theater situation and I don't think the designer would either. They are a great solution for a small stereo setup run full range or as a little HT setup when set with an appropriate high pass filter (crossover).

The key here is not to feel "cheated" because you are not using all of you speaker's range. Even speakers that can extend down to 30 Hz often do better in HT when crossed over at 80Hz or above. 

With a subwoofer, you are picking a more capable device to reproduce those lower frequencies, that is the point.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Good thoughts all. If I may offer my opinion on one tiny point, I have found that setting the crossover point above 80 Hz starts to get you into the realm where you can begin to localize and hear where the sub is. just something to watch out for.:bigsmile:


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

AudiocRaver said:


> Good thoughts all. If I may offer my opinion on one tiny point, I have found that setting the crossover point above 80 Hz starts to get you into the realm where you can begin to localize and hear where the sub is. just something to watch out for.:bigsmile:


This.

I know i can set to 150 and technically not lose anything but the sub starts to get located and i also defeat the purpose of " bigger than Bose" speakers up front. 150 is too high even for the little def tech promonitor speakers i was looking at.

I know 50hz is too low for them
OS.... It's just an example of how crossing at 150 doesn't feel right. I would nev
er cross them lower than 80 anyway. But 150 seems way too high.

It's been suggested to set the fronts to large, the rears to small and then the crossover value.

If i do that and make the crossover value 80, what frequencies will make it to the back speakers?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

AudiocRaver said:


> Good thoughts all. If I may offer my opinion on one tiny point, I have found that setting the crossover point above 80 Hz starts to get you into the realm where you can begin to localize and hear where the sub is. just something to watch out for.:bigsmile:


I could not agree more about this. In addition, many subwoofers really do not sound very good when being tasked with frequencies that high. With tiny cube sized speakers, there is no other choice. However, with speakers that are capable of meaningful output at 80hz, I cannot highly recommend enough setting the crossover there. Or even if it is 100hz to set it there.


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

Jungle Jack said:


> I could not agree more about this. In addition, many subwoofers really do not sound very good when being tasked with frequencies that high. With tiny cube sized speakers, there is no other choice. However, with speakers that are capable of meaningful output at 80hz, I cannot highly recommend enough setting the crossover there. Or even if it is 100hz to set it there.


Looks like we posted at the same time. 

Check out my reply if you like, but i have to think I'm not the only one with a setup like this and a pioneer receiver


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

If you have a sub, why would you set your speakers to large?

I guess I'm not getting what the stress is about, here... I run my rig with a global 80hz x-over and the sound is great. What exactly are you gaining from different x-over points? I would agree - 100% - that subs sounds become localized above 80hz. In fact, when I used to run one sub, it definitely weighted the sub sounds to the side if the room it was positioned (which indicated to me that it was localized to some degree even at 80hz)... Point being, why run surrounds above 80? Especially if the sub is in the front of the room.

In the same stroke, is much rather my subs do the heavy lifting for 80hz and below, even I my mains are technically able to hit down to 30hz. Let the subs do their job!


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

27dnast said:


> If you have a sub, why would you set your speakers to large?
> 
> I guess I'm not getting what the stress is about, here... I run my rig with a global 80hz x-over and the sound is great. What exactly are you gaining from different x-over points? I would agree - 100% - that subs sounds become localized above 80hz. In fact, when I used to run one sub, it definitely weighted the sub sounds to the side if the room it was positioned (which indicated to me that it was localized to some degree even at 80hz)... Point being, why run surrounds above 80? Especially if the sub is in the front of the room.
> 
> In the same stroke, is much rather my subs do the heavy lifting for 80hz and below, even I my mains are technically able to hit down to 30hz. Let the subs do their job!


I don't think my surrounds can handle that low. They are little Cambridge ensemble iv cubes.

But... I'm reading that they have a high pass filter built into them that filters out below 150. That might explain why audyssey chose 150 and means a global crossover value of 80 would not harm them

The large and small setting was suggested from..... Another forum.... But i didn't quite understand it either since that would run all freqs to the fronts and possibly damage those


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

This may be an outlandish notion, and I'm not sure I even like it myself. What if you were to set the crossover point for 80 Hz, all speakers, let the sub do all the work below 80 Hz, and live with the hole between 80 Hz and 150 Hz with your surrounds? If the application is primarily theater use, you might not even notice the 80 Hz to 150 Hz gap with the surrounds (and I could be totally wrong there, too). Certainly not ideal, but worth a try, might give you the best performance with your fronts and sub working together which may be a far more noticeable gain than the loss due to the "relatively insignificant" frequency gap for the surrounds.

I'm not trying to sell the idea, just suggesting it as a possible compromise under the conditions you are working with.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

^^^ I was actually thinking the same thing. Easy enough to try.


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

AudiocRaver said:


> This may be an outlandish notion, and I'm not sure I even like it myself. What if you were to set the crossover point for 80 Hz, all speakers, let the sub do all the work below 80 Hz, and live with the hole between 80 Hz and 150 Hz with your surrounds? If the application is primarily theater use, you might not even notice the 80 Hz to 150 Hz gap with the surrounds (and I could be totally wrong there, too). Certainly not ideal, but worth a try, might give you the best performance with your fronts and sub working together which may be a far more noticeable gain than the loss due to the "relatively insignificant" frequency gap for the surrounds.
> 
> I'm not trying to sell the idea, just suggesting it as a possible compromise under the conditions you are working with.


This is essentially what i have right now..... The fronts are crossed at 80, the rears at 150. For ht use it's no big deal.

Can mcacc save slots with different speaker configurations? I figure the setup i have right now for ht, then another slot with only left right and sub active for music use.

BTW i did break down and order the pioneer.


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## MNaudioguy (Jan 9, 2013)

I am curious about this setback on the 1222k. I am thinking about getting the Def Tech set:

http://www.definitivetech.com/products/BP-8060ST-CS-8040HD-System

Would i set my global xo at 100? Given the limit on the center channel? Will I be missing out on a certain audio range from music/ht?

I am new to all of this and just want to make sure I am making the right decision. I havent decided on a sub just yet, but am thinking about HSU or SVS


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

MNaudioguy said:


> I am curious about this setback on the 1222k. I am thinking about getting the Def Tech set:
> 
> http://www.definitivetech.com/products/BP-8060ST-CS-8040HD-System
> 
> ...


The specs on that center suggest an 80Hz x-over value. 

The towers are technically full range (freq response of 20Hz - 30kHz), so you could set the L/R to LARGE, and the center to SMALL. The L/R would then get full range and the center would only get the x-over value and higher.

Those towers also have an LFE input. With 1 10" sub in each of the tower speakers, Im not sure how necessary a dedicated sub would be at that point, but I could be wrong.


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## MNaudioguy (Jan 9, 2013)

chrisexv6 said:


> The specs on that center suggest an 80Hz x-over value.
> 
> The towers are technically full range (freq response of 20Hz - 30kHz), so you could set the L/R to LARGE, and the center to SMALL. The L/R would then get full range and the center would only get the x-over value and higher.
> 
> Those towers also have an LFE input. With 1 10" sub in each of the tower speakers, Im not sure how necessary a dedicated sub would be at that point, but I could be wrong.


If i did want to get a dedicated sub though, would i be missing out on some of the towers lower end capabilities by setting a higher xo at lets say 80


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

MNaudioguy said:


> If i did want to get a dedicated sub though, would i be missing out on some of the towers lower end capabilities by setting a higher xo at lets say 80


Setting the towers to large still feeds them all frequencies.

The standalone sub would get the bass from 80 and below that was intended for any speakers set to small (so the center and surrounds)

You are correct that if the fronts were set to small they would be crossed at 80Hz and then the subs built into the towers would do no work. 

Looking at the manual for the towers, they show Connection Option 2 as "speaker setting - large, subwoofer - yes" but Im not sure if the "subwoofer - yes" portion is in reference to the towers built in sub or for an offboard sub.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

MNaudioguy said:


> If i did want to get a dedicated sub though, would i be missing out on some of the towers lower end capabilities by setting a higher xo at lets say 80


Look, if you are getting a sub to pair with towers, then there is really no reason not to x-over at 80hz. 

What I'm saying is: If you get a sub, then it'd better have bass output than your towers. Otherwise, it would be a waste.


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## MNaudioguy (Jan 9, 2013)

27dnast said:


> Look, if you are getting a sub to pair with towers, then there is really no reason not to x-over at 80hz.
> 
> What I'm saying is: If you get a sub, then it'd better have bass output than your towers. Otherwise, it would be a waste.


Regardless if the towers say they can go down to 20Hz, that doesnt mean they should. All i want to do is use the towers for some good mid-bass 40Hz-80Hz but have a sub potentially do the job it should and handle the 20Hz-40Hz range. I have a big space (6500 cubic feet) and i am afraid the towers will be good but leave me wanting more eventually to upgrade. Isn't that what this is all about, being able to upgrade? So, I dont think it is a waste wanting another sub eventually. I am sorry if i am overlooking something or just plain looking at the wrong speakers. I just reallly like the reviews on this def tech 5.1 setup. I dont know if using the towers as Large or setting the "plus" setting on the AVR helps compensate. As you can tell i am learning still


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

check out the price of the 1222k today on newegg


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

fschris said:


> check out the price of the 1222k today on newegg


Yes, I happened to hit Newegg today, saw the price then got all :crying:

I might chat or call them to see if they will adjust for the 20.00. I just got my Pio last night, havent hooked it up yet though.


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