# B&W or Paradigm choice



## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

I have an incredible itch to buy something audio ...

Im not even sure where I'm gonna use it but probable locations are right beside a CRT tv or as computer speakers (but with LCD monitor).

I was ready to buy the B&W 602 Series 3 bookshelves - enough to buy it solely based on looks. (although I have listened to it and it sounds great to me)

I would then like to ask if anyone has compared the above speaker to a Paradigm Monitor 5 (same price) and/or a Paradigm Studio 20 (same specs but higher price)

which in your opinions sound better?

I cant demo both at the same place or time (and my acoustic memory is about 20 seconds)


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

When evaluating speakers, you really can't look at the specs. To an extent, they're important, but it really won't tell you if the speakers sound good or sound bad.

Of your choices, *I'm* partial to the Paradigm Studio 20's. I think that they're the best of breed at their price level.

But speakers are so subjective, that I always try and stress the fact that it's MY opinion, and that you should be making that decision after auditioning.

Now, it is hard to find a dealer that is selling both speakers you're interested in, and remembering how they sound with any accuracy is tough if you have to go to a different listening room, much less a new store. I have two alternatives..

1) bring them home for a home audition. This to me is a must if I'm spending this kind of green. If you're going to be doing an A/B comparision, make sure that the speakers are set at the same db level. If one is louder than the other, your instinct is to choose the louder speaker. Note, most stores that sell these brands are used to this practice. If they don't, I'd find another store.

2) to narrow down the selection of speakers for a home audition, or, if needed, to decide what speakers to buy without a home audtioin, I would do the following:

Take notes.. very important because you won't remember squat without them
Listen to the same songs in the same order with every set of speakers that you listen to. 
Choose songs that you're familiar with from a wide range of music styles. Naturally, use more from your favored genre. Also, bring a spoken word cd. I've heard that hearing the flaws in a speaker is easier with the spoken word.
When you're all done, let us know what you choose and why. Enquiring minds wanna know!  

Good luck.

JCD


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## Phil M (Apr 19, 2006)

Totally agree with JCD - and would also add that system synergy is also imortant. A speaker can sound completely different depending on the source and amplifier being used.
This also supports getting a home trial, and also factoring in any potential future upgrades.


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## Guest (May 19, 2006)

I bought B&W 704s and like them very much, but I listened to other speakers I liked also. The problem is you are listening in different locations with different receivers and there is no way to make a tru listening decision. The in home test would be best with your equipment but is not always possible. I just made a call because my wife was getting mad that I would drag her around to listen to speakers. I would have probably been just as happy in my home if I had selected a different quality speaker. Also remember in your home you are not going to be A'Bing the speakers after you buy them.


Hey I heard the B&W 802Ds and they make my speakers sound sad, try not to listen to far out of your price range.


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## Guest (May 19, 2006)

Another thing to consider is breakin period. When listening to speakers in a store, it's common that the speakers wil not have finished their breakin period. Believe me, this is important as the overall tone, brightness and sound of the speaker is influenced by that. It is very likely that the speakers will change after a few hundred hours of listening. Remember that!


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## GregBe (Apr 20, 2006)

haver said:


> Another thing to consider is breakin period. When listening to speakers in a store, it's common that the speakers wil not have finished their breakin period. Believe me, this is important as the overall tone, brightness and sound of the speaker is influenced by that. It is very likely that the speakers will change after a few hundred hours of listening. Remember that!



I agree, but wouldn't purchase speakers thinking that they would change enough in sound after break in if I wasn't completely satisfied up front. They will change, but their basic sonic signature will remain the same.

I would also say, be careful when A/Bing speakers that you aren't picking out features of speakers that stand out to you in an initial evaluation that may bug you down the road. I did this with my previous M&K speakers. I heard an amazing amount of detail compared to other speakers I was listening to. Ultimately they wound up being a little too bright for me. This time around, I tried not to be too analytical in my listening and go with which speakers that emotionally involved me the most, and allowed me to get lost in the music.


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## Guest (May 19, 2006)

GregBe said:


> I agree, but wouldn't purchase speakers thinking that they would change enough in sound after break in if I wasn't completely satisfied up front. They will change, but their basic sonic signature will remain the same.
> 
> I would also say, be careful when A/Bing speakers that you aren't picking out features of speakers that stand out to you in an initial evaluation that may bug you down the road. I did this with my previous M&K speakers. I heard an amazing amount of detail compared to other speakers I was listening to. Ultimately they wound up being a little too bright for me. This time around, I tried not to be too analytical in my listening and go with which speakers that emotionally involved me the most, and allowed me to get lost in the music.


I think your bringing a good point. What I believe is that it's important to consider breakin as part of the evaluation, another point to take into account, not necessarily the most important aspect of speaker choice.


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

unfortunately, there's no such thing as bringing home speakers here (unless you buy them)
fortunately, the 602's and the digms are in the same mall, in stores right beside each other.

but of course, they use different sources ...
the rotel uses musical fidelity
the digms (not sure yet)


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Well, I have a different take on them. I am the service manager for a dealer. I used to work at a shop that sold both B&W and Paradigm. That was a while back so the sonic comparison today is invalid, but at the time I used to have to repair a lot more Paradigms. I currently work where we sell only the B&W and can tell you that in the two decades of selling them, I have had to change very very few parts in B&W speakers and have found the quality to be exceptional. I can't comment on the current Paradigm product in this regard, only those a few years back.

As for the sound, I think the 601 is a better value than the 602, at least in an A/V system with a sub and center channel.


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

I was comparing the 601 and 602 but found that the 100bucks difference between the 2 was pretty negligible. 

I even have a cardboard mock up of the 601 set on my computer table to see if it was "too big"

I couldnt find cardboard that was 19" long for the 602


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## Exocer (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: <b><b>B&W or Paradigm choice</b></b>*

You must have a sizable computer desk. My primus 150's barely fit atop my desk. They tend to hange a few inches over on the sides.:laugh:


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

im buying a new table, its gonna be L shaped, 2m length per side and 700mm depth

im not sure the 602 will fit, but im sure the 601 will.
well, the studio series have the same footprint as the 602


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

went to look at the studio series but only saw the studio60. it doesn't score as high on the aesthetics scale as B&W and KEF though ...

btw, my dealer is selling me a NEW stock OLD model KEF Q1 (replaced by the iQ series) for only 300USD, B&W 602 is 500USD, Studio 20 is about 700-800USD

you think I should jump on that?


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## GregBe (Apr 20, 2006)

B&W and Paradigm have great quality speakers in every catagory they compete in. Some manufacturers have great high end speakers, but their low end is lacking. All the way up and down the line, these B&W and Paradigm know what they are doing. Both of these companies put a lot of money into R&D. I think with B&W, you may pay for the name, but you also have the economies of scale advantage, and also technology trickle down, which may equal out the increased pricing for the name.

Of course the choice should be what you like, but I prefer B&W to Paradigm.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

mike c said:


> went to look at the studio series but only saw the studio60. it doesn't score as high on the aesthetics scale as B&W and KEF though ...
> 
> btw, my dealer is selling me a NEW stock OLD model KEF Q1 (replaced by the iQ series) for only 300USD, B&W 602 is 500USD, Studio 20 is about 700-800USD
> 
> you think I should jump on that?



Even as a Paradigm owner, I have to saw the B&W's look better. Of course, *I *liked the Paradigm sound better..

I'm not sure about the deal on the KEF speakers. A quick search on the net found them for $359, so it sounds like a good deal. However, how do they sound? Kef is defintiely one of the brands I should have a listen to..

JCD


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## Exocer (Apr 19, 2006)

As far as auditioning goes, I am glad I settled for what initially engaged me the most. From this point I didn't find the need to audition any other speakers. It makes speaker selection a lot less complicated considering how many possibilities are out there at almost every pricerange nowadays. Possibilities are endless...If you go either B&W or Paradigm and you find that once you get them home they're not what you've expected there is always the option to sell them for minimal loss.


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## GregBe (Apr 20, 2006)

Exocer said:


> It makes speaker selection a lot less complicated considering how many possibilities are out there at almost every pricerange nowadays. Possibilities are endless...


Good point. I kinda got obssessed when I go speaker shopping. It can really get overwhelming.


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## russ.will (May 10, 2006)

mike c said:


> I have an incredible itch to buy something audio ...
> 
> Im not even sure where I'm gonna use it but probable locations are right beside a CRT tv or as computer speakers (but with LCD monitor).
> 
> ...


As it seems to have been ignored, what exactly are you going to be driving these speakers with? This will have a bearing on the recommendations for what may be suitable. It's all very well canvassing opinion, but without knowing the source components and amp, people may as well flip a coin.

Russell


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

russ.will said:


> As it seems to have been ignored, what exactly are you going to be driving these speakers with? This will have a bearing on the recommendations for what may be suitable. It's all very well canvassing opinion, but without knowing the source components and amp, people may as well flip a coin.
> 
> Russell


Russell makes a good point.. I think I was getting this thread confused with another one. 

Kind of a rule of thumb I have is that I'd spend 65-70% of by overall HT budget on the speakers, then the rest on the electronics. So what you're driving these with may sway my opinion a bit. For example of you've got some MacIntosh two channel tube amp (mondo expensive) i'd be looking at better speakers than the one's you're currently looking at. The opposite is not quite as true -- at least for me. Unless your source is total junk, I think getting better speakers, even up to the Studio 20's, would be worthwhile. All things being equal, better speakers almost always lead to better sound.

I know not everyone will have that same opinion, but I'll stand by it anyway.

JCD


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## russ.will (May 10, 2006)

JCD said:


> Russell makes a good point.. I think I was getting this thread confused with another one.
> 
> Kind of a rule of thumb I have is that I'd spend 65-70% of by overall HT budget on the speakers, then the rest on the electronics. So what you're driving these with may sway my opinion a bit. For example of you've got some MacIntosh two channel tube amp (mondo expensive) i'd be looking at better speakers than the one's you're currently looking at. The opposite is not quite as true -- at least for me. Unless your source is total junk, I think getting better speakers, even up to the Studio 20's, would be worthwhile. All things being equal, better speakers almost always lead to better sound.
> 
> ...


Ah, but going back to hat old rule of thumb, the speakers can't give out anything the prior audio chain doesn't deliver - $200 speakers will sound like a $30 amp if that's all that's driving them (unless it's a T-amp). In this case, unless I've read it wrong we're talking about a pair of stereo speakers only.

Russell


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

HK3480 stereo receiver if I suddenly decide to be cheap. (might add an amp in the future)

if I get more budget:

if B&W or KEF
Rotel RC1070, RT 1080, RB1070/1080 if Paradigm
Anthem TLP-1, PVA2/MCA20

if I go crazy
Parasound P3, T3, A21/A23

I realize all these are way over what the speakers can do, but I'm trying to future proof these things either by buying cheap or by buying all the way


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

My opinon -- any of the choices you made would do fine with the speakers you're looking at. Naturally, the further up the food chain you go, the better the ultimate sound; but the dimishing returns is steepest, imo, with the electronics, hence my rule of thumb of 65/35 or 70/30.

So, lets say you go crazy and drop the big one with one of the Parasounds (I love the way those things look) -- what speaker would you think you'd be going with? 

JCD


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

I think I'm leaning towards B&W (the studios are too much money for too little eye candy)
i'm only considering the KEFs because they're cheap

my wishlist btw:

http://s14.photobucket.com/albums/a330/superribbit/wish list/


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## GregBe (Apr 20, 2006)

JCD said:


> Naturally, the further up the food chain you go, the better the ultimate sound; but the dimishing returns is steepest, imo, with the electronics,


I completely agree with this. It is true, that you won't squeeze every ounce of performance out of good speakers with average electronics, but you will get most of the way there. Everytime I have upgraded my speakers, I heard big gains in performance. Upgraded electronics showed improvements, but not as dramatic.


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

IMHO I think one would want to upgrade electronics to the point of getting approx 200 W rms minimum to the left/right mains and maybe also the center channel. With decent damping factor (>100), low distortion <0.25% and low noise > 90 dB down and easily capable of driving 4 ohm loads. This is only achieveable with solid state amps. Given the above I'll bet you can drive most high end speakers very well. To get there most would have to add a power amp (or three) to their AVR if they are using one (even a flagship).

If you like the tube sound (soft clipping) and are using tube amps then you need extremely high efficient speakers with > 95 dB SPL sensitivity for even normal music volume levels without actually hitting those clipping points. These high efficiency SPL type of home hi fi speakers were more common before 1985. True high power tube amps with > 120 watts are very rare. Most go from 25 to 100 watts. That said I have very fond memories of the sound of my 30 Watt per channel Scott stereo amp that I used in the early 70s.

BTW FET's used in the output stage of a power amp have soft clipping just like tubes  The tube amp's output transformer is a limiting factor for frequency response, distortion and damping. Even the very best implementations are compromises as compared to a transformerless design.

Bob


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2006)

I have the paradigm 100's, and I like them, but if I had to do it again, I would get the room right first. I have heard these speakers with the same amp and rec. I have, and they sounded better where I purchased due to the room. I put the cart before the horse, but I am trying to do the room now. This forum has been a help and pleasure.
Thanks,
Joe


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

I don't know if I posted my KEF choice here but that option's gone down the tubes ... the cheap KEF Q1 is only available in maple.

I'm choosing between getting a new subwoofer or spending the little money I have for a pair of speakers.


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## khellandros66 (Jun 7, 2006)

IMO the Paradigm Studio 40 v.3 the matching center and rears with a Velodyne DD-15 or a DIY Sub with dual SS RP-L 15in and Berhinger EP1500. Would be the superior choice.

~Bob


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2006)

khellandros66 said:


> IMO the Paradigm Studio 40 v.3 the matching center and rears with a Velodyne DD-15 or a DIY Sub with dual SS RP-L 15in and Berhinger EP1500. Would be the superior choice.
> 
> ~Bob


I think you just put Mike over budget with Studio 40's:nono:


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2006)

mike c said:


> I have an incredible itch to buy something audio ...
> 
> Im not even sure where I'm gonna use it but probable locations are right beside a CRT tv or as computer speakers (but with LCD monitor).
> 
> ...


Mike,
I found sound stage of studio 20's is higher than 600
monitor series from paradigm would at the same level as 600.
B&W is more lade back, while Paridigm is more up front
It always comes down to what do you like


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2006)

I have auditioned all three of the speakers you are refering too and have come very close to purchasing a complete 7.0 set up based on the paradigm monitor series with the monitor 5's for mains and the b&W 600 series and I was really torn between the 601's 602's and even the 603's for my mains. I really had a hard time getting past the sheer beauty of the 600's and everytime I started to lean more to the paradigms I'd take one more look at the 600's and I would start to lean that way again. I really like the sound of the studio series paradigms but a whole system was over my budget so I stopped listening to them after a few seconds so as not to dislike the sound of the monitors in comparison. Granted these speakers are in different stores so I was never able to a side by side, but I heard both at 2 different locations each each powered by similar gear so I did the best I could. I really auditioned all of them about a dozen times each. I really liked the paradigm monitors and would have bought them if they were just a tad less expensive than the 600's. I finally decided I couldn't get past the looks of the 600 series and decided that was the way to go. I really do like the sound of the monitors, but they never really overly impressed me--they were just quality to me--kind of a blue collar work horse of speaker type, if that makes any sense. kind of like a chevy--not the best by any stretch but definately not a Daewoo--just good quality sound. The 600's never blew me away either but I felt they had just a bit more character to them, they somehow seemed to bring me into the music a bit more than the monitors. Of course as happy as I could I have been with either of these, both could easily be embarrassed and made to sound terrible by a simple flip of the switch at either shop, with many much better speakers on display. But for my budget I decided the 600's were the way to go. I did audition both the monitors and the 600's side by side with several other brands and did decide these were the two I liked best in my price range. With all of that said, once I moved, my theater room didn't lay out as I had anticipated with the new furniture, and I didn't end up getting the 600's. I am going the other way as far as looks go and am getting the ascend acoustics this fall. I have heard them at a friend's house and was really impressed. There were 2 other sets of similar (much higher priced) speakers there on hand for comparison and no way could I justify the higher prices (1 set was $1500, and the other was over $4000) There definatley were some very subtle dynamic and soundstage advantages for the $4000+ set but it was a toss up with the $1500 set. All of this is subject to change again if SVS steps up with their new plus series by then and throws another wrench into my plans, which will be fine. i have no issue sending them more of my money as the customer support on the sub I own from them has been astounding. now if my local utility companies could only take a lesson from them from a customer service standpoint, I might have TV, cable and internet back on by next week after the storm that shut down almost half of the area swept through last week, but that is a whole other story. Bottom line, as has been suggested, do your best to go listen to the speakers and decide which SOUNDS better to you. Sound is very subjective, as is looks, so go listen to them again and make a decision. Both are very good quality and you can't go wrong with either. I am sure you will be happy with either. Good luck.


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

last july, I A/Bed the B&W 602 s3 and Paradigm Studio 40 s3 

I paired the 40 s3 with the B&W because only the studio 20 s1 was around
source and integrated amp was denon.

I am so glad I don't have a golden ear ... (again, it was the wife who noticed a big difference but mentioned "nevermind for that price" - she did not know which of the two speakers were running)

sure there was a difference between the two, but if I would assign ratings to the difference it would be paradigm 98% b&w 97-96%. the difference was in the soundstage, the vocals were "higher" or simply "louder" than the b&w.

you have to consider though that the B&W has one 7" driver doing all the work, while the studio 40 has two 7" drivers (one for the mids, one for the lows).

I'm thinking the cheaper floorstanding 603 b&w with separate mid and low drivers will be enough to match the studio 40. (or the 604 will be enough to beat it)


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## khellandros66 (Jun 7, 2006)

My memory od the pricing is a bit rusty, but I think you should take a listen to these as well. The 700 series is really where you will notice B&W's finess kick in. I wouldn't worry too much about the lower octaves as that can be fufiled with a sub.

~Bob


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