# Dayton Audio SUB-1200 Subwoofer Discussion Thread



## theJman

*Dayton Audio SUB-1200​**By Jim Wilson (theJman)*

​

The Dayton Audio SUB-1200 is a 'bottom line' subwoofer -- meaning the people who are most likely to purchase one are interested in the price, first and foremost -- so I'll skip directly to my bottom line (as in what I think about it); buy one. Better yet, buy two. At this price you can almost certainly afford a pair. How is it even possible for a company to sell something with an amp, driver and enclosure for less than $130 and still make a profit? Usually it's a piece of junk, that's how. Dayton Audio has managed to hit that price point alright, but without the last bit; the SUB-1200 is _not_ a piece of junk. Quite the contrary actually. Forced to describe the SUB-1200 using a single word it would absolutely have to be "value". It's often said DIY (Do It Yourself) is the least expensive way to get a good subwoofer. In a lot of instances I would concur, but not in this case. I don't believe anyone could build something capable of doing what the SUB-1200 can for the same price. If you're on a tight budget, and can do without the very lowest octave of bass, this is the subwoofer to own.

*For the full review Click Here​*​


----------



## Picture_Shooter

Great write up Jim!!

I own two of these boogers due to the fact of their price point which I bought them about 8-months ago, however they been sitting in there boxes for about 7 months now!! These Daytons can't beat dauls for $200 shipped!! Does parts express even make money? 

I always thought for the longest that the Velodyne XV11 was my favorite cheapy / bang for the $ subwoofer, but once i got my hands on these Daytons they just are a great deal for the money!! 

They will not hit them low-notes, but they are very nice for a simple home audio enthusiast thats on a budget and want "bang for the buck" under the $200 price point or just starting out for sure.

Bass-on my friend!


12/18/13 - At PE they have it on sale for $109! Linky: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1200-12-120-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-629


----------



## smokarz

Excellent write up Jim,

I just hooked up 2 of these subs in my living. Was looking for a budget sub for mostly music and TV, and I am pleasantly surprised by their performance. I've listen to them for only a few hours, but they sure put out very good values for the price.


----------



## Todd Anderson

Great review, as always, Jim. 

Wow, you hammered that sub... WOTW and Cloverfield??

I love the challenge you (sort of) issued: build a sub that sounds better for less. It would be fun to have a contest with builds sent to you for review! 

I'm curious, are these Dayton subs similar to the cheaper Polk subs in terms of sales? It seems that the Polk PSW10 is on sale every other week for lower and lower prices... do you think this Dayton will drop down to (or below) the $100 price point? It sounds like it is almost unbeatable at $130...


----------



## theJman

Yea, the music aspect caught me of guard as well. So long as the rhythm section isn't too quick the SUB-1200 will definitely hold it's own.


----------



## theJman

Todd Anderson said:


> I'm curious, are these Dayton subs similar to the cheaper Polk subs in terms of sales? It seems that the Polk PSW10 is on sale every other week for lower and lower prices... do you think this Dayton will drop down to (or below) the $100 price point? It sounds like it is almost unbeatable at $130...


They've been at $109 for several weeks now, but more than likely that's a holiday special. Frankly, I'm not sure PE needs to do that because they're easily worth the $129 regular price.


----------



## Todd Anderson

Based on your take, $109 sounds like a total steal.


----------



## Almadacr

Another nice review Jim especially when there is a lot of ppl that don't want to spend more than $200 in a sub .

BTW Symphony X i consider that they are more on the melodic metal side than trash since there sound is the same as bands like Sonata Arctica , Stratovarius , Helloween or Nightwish but a bit far from Trash like Exodus , Kreator , Slayer , Testament etc . 

For Michael Schenker stuff and some audition i advise his live One night at Budokan , especially the Cozy Powell drum solo :T


----------



## theJman

Almadacr said:


> BTW Symphony X i consider that they are more on the melodic metal side than trash since there sound is the same as bands like Sonata Arctica , Stratovarius , Helloween or Nightwish but a bit far from *Trash* like Exodus , Kreator , Slayer , Testament etc .


Did you mean _thrash_? :rofl2:




Almadacr said:


> For Michael Schenker stuff and some audition i advise his live One night at Budokan , especially the Cozy Powell drum solo :T


I used to love his work in Rainbow. Cozy died way too young...


----------



## Almadacr

theJman said:


> Did you mean _thrash_? :rofl2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used to love his work in Rainbow. Cozy died way too young...


:rofl: yes i did .

He was and is one of the greatest drummers of all time . I only saw him once live with Whitesnake back in the 80's good memories .


----------



## AudiocRaver

Great review, Jim. Thanks for all the in-depth information!


----------



## mark62

I own 2 of these as well and have them stacked, and i love them for what they cost. i mainly use them just for movies, most of the time i listen to music with just the mains. 

I've had a $1500 sub from Paradigm, tho these arent as good overall i have no complaints. 

I have a wall that when the sub its that walls resonance frequency it louder than the sub, very irritating...been meaning do something to fix that... i live in a double wide so the drywall is like 1/4 in thick, and the place itself probably is not that good for sound period...


----------



## cavchameleon

Jim,

Thanks again for a great review! One of my first subs was a kit from Dayton Audio (Parts Express). It was more expensive then this one and couldn't hit as low (only had a 10" Titanic driver). That was a long time ago and one of my brothers is actually using it in one of his rooms now, still working great! I think it's amazing they can come out with a very decent sub for cheaper than you can actually build one. Kudos to them!!!


----------



## mark62

One more thing the plastic feet on these leaves a lot to be desired...

what I did is order some rubber ones from parts express. now on my hard floor they are coupled better and dont slide around and the rubber feet are only a couple bucks.

PS-- my 2 also have a ding on the corner just like the review sample... if i read it right... just read it again and says on the foot so not the same but i found it odd that my 2 had the same ding on the right top corner. :rubeyes:


----------



## theJman

mark62 said:


> OPS-- my 2 also have a ding on the corner just like the review sample... if i read it right... just read it again and says on the foot so not the same but i found it odd that my 2 had the same ding on the right top corner. :rubeyes:


The mark on the review unit is actually a slight indentation in the cabinet itself, not the foot. It's on the side, at the intersection of the bottom and side panels. It's near the front foot.


----------



## Otis857

Thanks for the review. I love PE for my enabling DIY fetish, but hadnt seriously considered these subs due to the Price point (and the price concerns you mentioned), so I was pleasantly surprised! Im always looking to get my adult kids & step kids into better quality audio(the MP3 Generation), and this sub will give me one more option to get them the gift of good sound w/o breaking the bank!


----------



## Stuck Pixel

I've been out of the HT phase of my life for a couple of years and I'm looking to go with a budget powered sub to get back into it. I was considering the PL-200 or the F-12 from Bic until I stumbled upon this jewel (sub-1200) and his review. My intentions were going to be to go with a single powered sub, but at this price point, I'm considering going with (2) of these, a PL-200, or an F12. My living room is just under 3000 cuft and the listening position is against a wall 8ft from the TV. I have open doorways on each side of my listening position being 4ft and 3 ft wide. There is about 2ft of space between each end of the couch and the open doorways. I want this for good acceptable hometheater sound but I REALLY love my music. What would the members here suggest?


----------



## theJman

In the context of a subwoofer the words 'budget' and 'musical' are generally considered antonyms, so while I do believe the SUB-1200 did better than its prices suggests it's still not musical in the purest sense. Having said that... it might surprise you with what it can do.

The BIC subwoofers are often considered to be good values, but mostly from people using them for HT applications. I'm not certain too many of those folks would call them musical though, so the Dayton may be the better alternative given your circumstances.

I would suggest you'll need a pair of subs to adequately fill 3000 ft^3, so whatever you ultimately decide to buy you should strongly consider getting two of them.


----------



## Stuck Pixel

Thanks for the reply. I'm almost certain I'm going to go with (2) Dayton Sub-1200's. It has got to be better than my Samsung flat screen's speakers while my Onkyo receiver gets worked on. Once I get the receiver back, I should have both the Daytons set up and ready to go. I've listened to a couple of soundbar/ sub combos recently in much bigger rooms, and if the Dayton's sound as good or better I will be ecstatic. I've been without my 5.1 for six months now and have been relying on my flat screen speakers for my listening pleasure, lol. I think I will be happy with this. Btw, once my receiver gets back from repair, I will have my Bic DV DV84 fronts, and DV-62CLRS center channel operating. While what I have is nothing extravagant, I'm excited to get back in this.


----------



## theJman

If you do ultimately get the SUB-1200's be sure to come back and post your impressions. It's always valuable to others when actual owners provide their insight.


----------



## mark62

Stuck Pixel said:


> Thanks for the reply. I'm almost certain I'm going to go with (2) Dayton Sub-1200's. It has got to be better than my Samsung flat screen's speakers while my Onkyo receiver gets worked on. Once I get the receiver back, I should have both the Daytons set up and ready to go. I've listened to a couple of soundbar/ sub combos recently in much bigger rooms, and if the Dayton's sound as good or better I will be ecstatic. I've been without my 5.1 for six months now and have been relying on my flat screen speakers for my listening pleasure, lol. I think I will be happy with this. Btw, once my receiver gets back from repair, I will have my Bic DV DV84 fronts, and DV-62CLRS center channel operating. While what I have is nothing extravagant, I'm excited to get back in this.


I'm sure you will be happy with them, however make sure you take the time and effort to set them up correctly and place them in the room where they will sound the best. 

a poorly placed sub no matter the cost will sound boomy and one note or have room node cancellations that Will make it sound weak.

I have 2 of these and for the money they are good. in my room i tried to place them in one of the recommended positions, in diagonal corners and and a couple other ways. to my surprise they sound best stacked about 3 feet from the front corner of my room.

also having your couch against the back wall is not ideal, but sometimes i know the room dictates placement of everything.

have fun with them if you do get them.


----------



## Rylen

nice for the price


----------



## Stuck Pixel

mark62 said:


> I'm sure you will be happy with them, however make sure you take the time and effort to set them up correctly and place them in the room where they will sound the best.
> 
> a poorly placed sub no matter the cost will sound boomy and one note or have room node cancellations that Will make it sound weak.
> 
> I have 2 of these and for the money they are good. in my room i tried to place them in one of the recommended positions, in diagonal corners and and a couple other ways. to my surprise they sound best stacked about 3 feet from the front corner of my room.
> 
> also having your couch against the back wall is not ideal, but sometimes i know the room dictates placement of everything.
> 
> have fun with them if you do get them.


Thanks for the reply. My living room is really difficult and really has no true corner. The TV is placed above the fireplace on the mantle, and that section of the wall (6 feet) juts out from the actual wall into the living room, 3 feet, because it is a fireplace. There is 3.5 feet of wall on both sides of the section that justs out, and door ways to bedrooms on each side of that where that side of the living room wall ends. Inside those doorways are 4 ft x 4ft mini hallways with 8 ft tall ceilings going to the bedrooms.
The couch on the opposite wall of the TV is 7.5ft from the TV, so there isn't much room to scoot it away from the wall. On each side of the couch, as I might have stated above, are doorways, one being 4 ft wide going to the kitchen, and 3 ft wide going to the dining room. On each side of the couch between the doorways is about 2 ft of the back wall. On the left side of my listening position (couch) on the other side of the doorway is a 4ft nook that goes outside the listening space to the front door. In summery there are basically doorways in every corner and it seems my only option is the mid walls to the left and right of my listening position. I know it might be hard to follow with me describing it and a diagram would best help get an understanding of what I'm faced with. It seems that i made a diagram on sketchup when I designed the enclosure for my one 18 I ran. I will try to find it and post in the thread. Thanks for your advice.


----------



## Stuck Pixel

Here is one angle showing the fireplace an one hallway going to bed rooms that I was referring to, as well as the front door.









The opposite wall from that sub is straight going to the doorway to the kitchen. I'm appologize, but I feel like I have hijacked this thread enough and will start my own.


----------



## pharoah

im surprised a bit about this review.i to was thinking piece of junk,but i guess not.it has a larger brother you know hmmmmm interesting.


----------



## theJman

Going into the review I wasn't really expecting all that much. Honestly, how much effort could PE have put into something that costs what the SUB-1200 does? Turns out somebody did their homework, and for the price it's almost a no-brainer (assuming you can forgo the really low stuff). I have no problem recommending it.


----------



## pharoah

any chance of reviewing its big brother?

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1500-15-150-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-634


----------



## theJman

There's nothing currently planned, but never say never.


----------



## chashint

Well, I know the review is glowing but the frequency graph looks like this is a one note wonder to me.


----------



## mark62

chashint said:


> Well, I know the review is glowing but the frequency graph looks like this is a one note wonder to me.


looks like it has a relatively flat response to me from 100 to 25hz give or take.

i must not know how to read graphs or hear multiple notes from one.... :scratch:

it is not the greatest sub but does pretty good set up properly.


----------



## theJman

mark62 said:


> looks like it has a relatively flat response to me from 100 to 25hz give or take.
> 
> i must not know how to read graphs or hear multiple notes from one.... :scratch:
> 
> it is not the greatest sub but does pretty good set up properly.


Nope, you can read a graph; there's nothing about the measurements that suggest the SUB-1200 is a one note wonder. AAMOF, the spectrographs tell a surprisingly good story, with virtually no stored energy detected. Quite often that's a good indicator of a musical subwoofer because that type of response generally translates into sounds which start and stop 'quickly'.


----------



## Basshead81

theJman said:


> Nope, you can read a graph; there's nothing about the measurements that suggest the SUB-1200 is a one note wonder. AAMOF, the spectrographs tell a surprisingly good story, with virtually no stored energy detected. Quite often that's a good indicator of a musical subwoofer because that type of response generally translates into sounds which start and stop 'quickly'.


I think I am going to start purchasing these subs to use with our touch tunes jukeboxes. I have always used the inexpensive polk subs in the past(psw202,psw10, psw505) and they are ok, but if I can get better performance for the same or even less coin, then its a no brainer.


----------



## mark62

theJman said:


> Nope, you can read a graph; there's nothing about the measurements that suggest the SUB-1200 is a one note wonder. AAMOF, the spectrographs tell a surprisingly good story, with virtually no stored energy detected. Quite often that's a good indicator of a musical subwoofer because that type of response generally translates into sounds which start and stop 'quickly'.


i dont know how to interpret the spectrographs, could you or someone give me a little 101 on that?


----------



## theJman

Basshead81 said:


> I think I am going to start purchasing these subs to use with our touch tunes jukeboxes. I have always used the inexpensive polk subs in the past(psw202,psw10, psw505) and they are ok, but if I can get better performance for the same or even less coin, then its a no brainer.


Depending upon how big a space you have, and the volume to listen at, you might want to consider the SUB-1500 instead. That will have greater output and can play lower.


----------



## Basshead81

theJman said:


> Depending upon how big a space you have, and the volume to listen at, you might want to consider the SUB-1500 instead. That will have greater output and can play lower.


Were only dealing with music so depth should not be a issue. However I was eyeing the 15" but I think its a tad too big to sit under our wall mount juke boxes. We have the polk psw505, psw202, psw10, paradigm pdr10, and jbl es250....they all have done a fairly decent job. In a bar atmosphere accuracy is not a huge issue, just need some reliable thump to fill in the bottom end. We normally use bose 301 and polk rti bookshelfs mounted up high on the walls for main speakers.


----------



## steve nn

> *Bass* In a bar atmosphere accuracy is not a huge issue, just need some reliable thump to fill in the bottom end.


Lol, this is true.


----------



## Basshead81

steve nn said:


> Lol, this is true.


Lol 

Just recieved a sub 1200 today...I must say this thing is really good for the price...better then any budget sub I have herd to date. My only gripe is that the feet are not level but that can be fixed easily enough. I bet the sub 1500 is a real brute for 200.00. Dayton hit a home run on these budget performers!!


----------



## mark62

Basshead81 said:


> Lol
> 
> Just recieved a sub 1200 today...I must say this thing is really good for the price...better then any budget sub I have herd to date. My only gripe is that the feet are not level but that can be fixed easily enough. I bet the sub 1500 is a real brute for 200.00. Dayton hit a home run on these budget performers!!


i bought rubber feet from parts express.


----------



## theJman

mark62 said:


> i dont know how to interpret the spectrographs, could you or someone give me a little 101 on that?


Think of a spectrograph as a measurement that depicts how much "stored energy" there is in the output. The faster this energy dissipates the quicker your subwoofer has recovered and is ready to produce the next sound. It's relative to the time associated to starting and stopping the output, measured in ms (milliseconds). Lower numbers are better.

If you look at the graphs you'll see various colors; red indicates the most intense output, blue the least, yellow is in between. The left axis is the frequency that was measured, while the bottom is time in ms. There is a vertical line denoting 50ms, which I put in there. It's somewhat arbitrary on my part, but anything below 100ms for these frequencies is probably not audible for most people anyway (except for the quickest of transients perhaps). I went with 50ms because I'm a huge fan of subwoofers that have excellent transient response; basically, fast "recovery" times.

The best way to interpret the graph is to look at how much of the energy shows up to the right of the 50ms line. The width of those splashes, their color and intensity determine how much was stored for that particular frequency. The distance they travel to the right relates to how long that energy lasted.

The long thin splash on the driver graph is centered around 95Hz, virtually irrelevant for anyone who uses an 80Hz crossover, so you can almost ignore that one. The next frequency with anything notable beyond 50ms occurs around 57Hz, and it's wider with greater intensity than the previous one. However, its duration is shorter so the driver was completely 'ready' to produce the next signal sooner than what you see at 95Hz.

The biggest take-away from these graphs is what you _don't_ see though; much of anything to the right of the 50ms line. For a budget subwoofer that's an extraordinary response, because there's almost nothing to speak of. Even when you look at the port itself -- which is often 'noisier' than the driver -- there's hardly anything. That means it's properly tuned and matched to the driver quite well. All in all, a very good showing for such an inexpensive subwoofer.


----------



## mark62

theJman said:


> Think of a spectrograph as a measurement that depicts how much "stored energy" there is in the output. The faster this energy dissipates the quicker your subwoofer has recovered and is ready to produce the next sound. It's relative to the time associated to starting and stopping the output, measured in ms (milliseconds). Lower numbers are better.
> 
> If you look at the graphs you'll see various colors; red indicates the most intense output, blue the least, yellow is in between. The left axis is the frequency that was measured, while the bottom is time in ms. There is a vertical line denoting 50ms, which I put in there. It's somewhat arbitrary on my part, but anything below 100ms for these frequencies is probably not audible for most people anyway (except for the quickest of transients perhaps). I went with 50ms because I'm a huge fan of subwoofers that have excellent transient response; basically, fast "recovery" times.
> 
> The best way to interpret the graph is to look at how much of the energy shows up to the right of the 50ms line. The width of those splashes, their color and intensity determine how much was stored for that particular frequency. The distance they travel to the right relates to how long that energy lasted.
> 
> The long thin splash on the driver graph is centered around 95Hz, virtually irrelevant for anyone who uses an 80Hz crossover, so you can almost ignore that one. The next frequency with anything notable beyond 50ms occurs around 57Hz, and it's wider with greater intensity than the previous one. However, its duration is shorter so the driver was completely 'ready' to produce the next signal sooner than what you see at 95Hz.
> 
> The biggest take-away from these graphs is what you _don't_ see though; much of anything to the right of the 50ms line. For a budget subwoofer that's an extraordinary response, because there's almost nothing to speak of. Even when you look at the port itself -- which is often 'noisier' than the driver -- there's hardly anything. That means it's properly tuned and matched to the driver quite well. All in all, a very good showing for such an inexpensive subwoofer.


Thanks a lot Jim for explaining that.


----------



## tray1187

My curiosity got the best of me today after reading numerous reviews so I pulled the trigger and ordered two of these subs today. Currently I'm using an older Velodyne CHT8 and a Klipsch SW-350; both are 8" subs and do a good job of filling up an open space with sound but leave much to be desired on the lower end. The viewing area for the projector is 16' deep, 13' wide and opens up into the kitchen area and vaulted ceilings to boot. As stated before, they do a decent job but I get a lot noise from the slotted port on the Velodyne as it reaches it's limit and the Klipsch hasn't really given me a reason to complain. I can't wait to hook these things up and dial them in with REW. I may even incorparate all of them into the new set up.


----------



## theJman

tray1187 said:


> My curiosity got the best of me today after reading numerous reviews so I pulled the trigger and ordered two of these subs today. Currently I'm using an older Velodyne CHT8 and a Klipsch SW-350; both are 8" subs and do a good job of filling up an open space with sound but leave much to be desired on the lower end. The viewing area for the projector is 16' deep, 13' wide and opens up into the kitchen area and vaulted ceilings to boot. As stated before, they do a decent job but I get a lot noise from the slotted port on the Velodyne as it reaches it's limit and the Klipsch hasn't really given me a reason to complain. I can't wait to hook these things up and dial them in with REW.


Congrats! I hope they work out for you. After you have everything all dialed in be sure to come back and post your impressions.




tray1187 said:


> I may even incorparate all of them into the new set up.


That's probably not a good idea. Balancing disparate subs is an exercise in futility, especially if their capabilities are noticeably different.


----------



## tray1187

theJman said:


> Congrats! I hope they work out for you. After you have everything all dialed in be sure to come back and post your impressions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's probably not a good idea. Balancing disparate subs is an exercise in futility, especially if their capabilities are noticeably different.


Yeah, you're probably right. But the kid in me says try it anyway, lol. I blended the velodyne and the klipsch very well using REW and some EQing with a dual 31band graphic Nady. My thoughts were to have the 8 inchers handle the light work and give the heavy lifting to the 1200's. I'll post my impressions of the 1200's running as a pair either way. Thanks again for the informative initial review.:T


----------



## tray1187

The 1200's arrived today. I'll be taking them on a run soon.


----------



## leej

After reading all of the good comments on this sub, I had to try it - especially at this price. Even if it proved to be trash, it might make a nice gift. I got it to replace an inadequate sub in a secondary HT system. Well, it won't be used as a gift. I'm pretty impressed with this thing. It sounds better than I imagined and looks nice, too. PE can't be making much profit with these. Thanks to everyone who recommended it.


----------



## tray1187

Well I've had these subs for a week now and all I can say is wow!!!! As everyone has stated here,you are not gonna get much more bang for your buck than you are with this deal. After they arrived I unboxed only one,dialed it in and was blown away. So I quickly unboxed the second one and dialed it in as well (I did use a y splitter on both subs). I don't have the final REW graph available for show right now but lets just say I'm affraid I am going to disturb the neighbors. I'm not getting much useable output below 25hz probably due to the room opening into another but I can live with that. I tested them with WOW and Underworld the Awakening as Jman did to get a taste of what they could really do. I really had to take the volume past my normal listening level before they started to struggle. The lowend extention comes on with little to no effort. 

So then I decided to dial in my Klipcsh SW 350 and my Velodyne CHT8 in the back of the room to see what would happen and again wow!!! After adjusting the phase on these on these two, the impact from the low end content can be felt in my chest. My wife, who can never tell a difference when I make upgrades in sound equipment, even said it now is just like being in a real theater. I didn't even have to hear about how big they were. I'm pleased with the purchase of these subs and recomend them to anyone who is working with smaller budget for their HT and is looking for a great deal. At this price why not buy two of them.


----------



## theJman

I'm glad you guys are enjoying your new toys! On a per unit basis I imagine PE isn't making much money, but I suspect they are probably selling enough of them to make up for it.


----------



## afterlife2

Really digging mine in my studio apt. Had it for about a month and this thing is pretty good for music. I, like alot of you can't really turn it up, except weekends. A true bargain. Just get it! Merci J The Man.


----------



## vardo

I've had no experience with this sub....but I have built 2 Dayton 10" Titanic subs. For 10" subs, the
midbass was tremendous (that's where you really feel the LFE effects). All Dayton woofers IMO are
of high quality, and I would expect the Dayton 1200 sub to have quality parts. 

vardo


----------



## theJman

afterlife2 said:


> Really digging mine in my studio apt. Had it for about a month and this thing is pretty good for music. I, like alot of you can't really turn it up, except weekends. A true bargain. Just get it! Merci J The Man.


You're very welcome my friend. I'm glad it's worked out for you.


----------



## Gdaddy

My first real post! 

I'm in the market for a subwoofer or, better yet, a pair. I've read with much interest theJman review on the Sub 1200. Very well done!

Have been looking at PE and this forum to try to gather as much information as I could. I moved from a large listening space and still have the two DIY NHT 1251 subs and used there. However, my new listening room is much smaller (1950 cubic ft) and the cabinets are far too large for the room. So I began looking to build new ones.

I was looking at assembling a cabinet and using the Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm using a spa-250 watt amp and put it in a knock down cabinet they sell for $119.00. 

Small room and I don't listen at high levels so this should suit me well. 

Poking around PE and came across a couple of these Dayton 1200's that were open box specials and I could pick them up for the ridiculous price of $82 each... delivered! I couldn't resist so I ordered them today.

, just the knockdown cabinet alone costs $35 more than these already assembled cabinets.

The plan is to try them as dual subs just as they are and see for myself if they sound adequate.(again, only music) With proper placement and dual subs it probably will suit me just fine.

IF it so happens I don't like them I have several options... one is I could pull the drivers and replace them with the new Dayton HF driver. Try that with the existing amp and see how it sounds. At lower listening levels may be just fine??? Then the option of replacing the amp with the new Dayton 250 watt amp. 

The last option would be to put the NHT 1251 in these cabinets and seal off the port. The cabinet is slightly under sized (2.7 cu. ft.) but should work. It would cost nothing to try this experiment and see how it sounds but is it a waste of time? I would imagine the NHT driver is a better unit.

What say you??? Are these viable options? Any help is appreciated and I'm open for any suggestions. Again, I anticipate that these may sound just fine as they are when doubled up. Experimentation is what this is all about!


----------



## theJman

Gdaddy said:


> IF it so happens I don't like them I have several options... one is I could pull the drivers and replace them with the new Dayton HF driver. Try that with the existing amp and see how it sounds. At lower listening levels may be just fine??? Then the option of replacing the amp with the new Dayton 250 watt amp.
> 
> The last option would be to put the NHT 1251 in these cabinets and seal off the port. The cabinet is slightly under sized (2.7 cu. ft.) but should work. It would cost nothing to try this experiment and see how it sounds but is it a waste of time? I would imagine the NHT driver is a better unit.
> 
> What say you??? Are these viable options? Any help is appreciated and I'm open for any suggestions. Again, I anticipate that these may sound just fine as they are when doubled up. Experimentation is what this is all about!


If could be neither is viable I'm afraid. Subwoofers appear to be very simple products - consisting of but three components; driver, amp, cabinet - but the interaction between them has many variables. As such it's rare to successfully swap/alter any one component and have it work seamlessly, unless a lot of research is done beforehand.

For example, what is the ideal cabinet volume for the NHT driver? You say "slightly" smaller, but what does that constitute in real terms? If the SUB-1200 is too large or small you will lose either efficiency or put the driver in harms way because it could then over-extend itself. In the case of the HF driver, what if the SUB-1200's rating of 250 watts is not enough power? The current driver in that subwoofer might be nominally rated for 8 ohms, while the HF may need 4 ohms instead. If that's the case the driver will attempt to draw more current then the amp can deliver, making it's life expectancy very short. Those are just a few areas of concern - there are other things to consider as well.

Since your current NHT's are a DIY project I imagine you've gone through this drill when you built those, so you're probably familiar with this stuff already. Did you model those options you're considering yet? I'd be curious to see where the challenges might be. Some of them can be overcome with relative ease. For example, if the only problem you see on the model is an undersized enclosure you can add loose-fill stuffing to fool the driver into thinking the interior volume is larger than it really is.


----------



## Gdaddy

theJman said:


> If could be neither is viable I'm afraid. Subwoofers appear to be very simple products - consisting of but three components; driver, amp, cabinet - but the interaction between them has many variables. As such it's rare to successfully swap/alter any one component and have it work seamlessly, unless a lot of research is done beforehand.
> 
> For example, what is the ideal cabinet volume for the NHT driver? You say "slightly" smaller, but what does that constitute in real terms? If the SUB-1200 is too large or small you will lose either efficiency or put the driver in harms way because it could then over-extend itself. In the case of the HF driver, what if the SUB-1200's rating of 250 watts is not enough power? The current driver in that subwoofer might be nominally rated for 8 ohms, while the HF may need 4 ohms instead. If that's the case the driver will attempt to draw more current then the amp can deliver, making it's life expectancy very short. Those are just a few areas of concern - there are other things to consider as well.
> 
> Since your current NHT's are a DIY project I imagine you've gone through this drill when you built those, so you're probably familiar with this stuff already. Did you model those options you're considering yet? I'd be curious to see where the challenges might be. Some of them can be overcome with relative ease. For example, if the only problem you see on the model is an undersized enclosure you can add loose-fill stuffing to fool the driver into thinking the interior volume is larger than it really is.


Thanks for the reply. 

I had noticed in your photo of the 1200 driver that it was also 4 ohms. So I thought the 4 ohm NHT would be compatible in this regard.

When I built the NHT sealed cabinets the optimum size was 3 cu.ft. There was some wiggle room. For deeper reach the box could be made larger or for tighter base make the box smaller. (I believe it was as low as 2.7 cu. ft.) I realize the 1200 boxes are under that number. The inside volume should be around 2.5. for the 1200 box. Close with some stuffing?

Being smaller would put more strain on the amp in order to reach the same volume but since I don't play at high levels it might work???

At the time I bought them from Madisound they were all the rage. They have smallish magnets (38 oz.) and were described as being "floppy". They were dependant on the sealed enclosure to provide resistance. So my thought was a smaller box would lose the lower register but could be a tighter more musical sub. 

I really have no idea what made the NHT 1251 a rave subwoofer. I would imagine that today's speaker manufacturers have made advancements well beyond what NHT had to offer at the time. Is it possible the stock speaker in the 1200 performs as well if not better? or is the NHT 1251 still a well respected driver? 

The biggest realization for me was how, not only the room size but the composition of the walls changed the dynamics of the sound. My large listening room was the upper loft of a barn converted into a living space. Wood construction, sheet rock, big open space. Now, my room is much smaller (1950 cu. ft.) with (carpet)concrete floor and walls. This is a whole different dynamic. I borrowed a small inexpensive 150 watt 10" JBL sub from my daughter and playing with different speaker location have gotten a decent amount of base with a pretty tight sound. So it's more than likely the dual 12" Daytons will be fine like they are for just music but as a fun experiment would the NHT 1251 render an even improved musical performance??? 

The 'what if's' drive me nuts.:smile:


----------



## theJman

At this point it might be better to just see what the Daytons give you and decide if they're sufficient. If so, you're good to go. If not, then let the 'what ifs' begin...


----------



## Gdaddy

Two 'open box' dayton 1200's were on sale so when I saw the price of $85 each I grabbed a couple and hoped for the best. Total, with shipping and a new customer coupon, landed me two of these for the tidy sum of only $165 delivered!

They arrived together 5 days later. Double boxed and well packaged with heavy weight foam protection. They had been re-packaged but upon inspection they appeared to be brand new condition. One pin head size knick on a corner but I can certainly live with that. Other than that... MUCH better than expected. In fact, these things look really nice. (I hope they work)

My room is small (1950 cu. ft.) So I hooked one up first to see if it would be adequate by itself. Connection was using both connectors... L&R out to L&R in on sub. (one cable to mono works but greatly reduces output level.) Phase set at zero.

I had done the 'subwoofer crawl' with another sub and the left front corner was by far the best location. So there it went.

My anticipation had me thinking these are under powered so I had the volume up pretty high as well as the crossover. It turned out to have more than enough power and immediately needed to back things down. Once dialed in the sub sounded quite good. However, in this small room (with a slant ceiling) there are quite a few dead spots (nulls). However, center seat was well focused.

I ended up backing the crossover down to 65hz. This got rid of boominess and allowed a bit more volume for the low end. This replaced the boomy sound with a more punchy, deeper and better blended sound. I played with this for a day. The sub has a down firing port. It stands on plastic feet leaving a very small space and it fires into my carpet as well. So,the only change I made was taking the sub off it's feet and laying it on it's side and let the down firing port fire open into the corner about 2 feet away.


Very impressed so far and am now pumped to hear what two of them can do. I had two options for connection and found this very important. Mono or stereo. I have one available set of line level outputs on my pre-amp. I used a Y connector on BOTH left and right channel. (one male in each pre-amp and two female out to connect to sub. One Y connector for each channel)

I prefer to use stereo so I have one Y connector coming from the 'left channel only' connected to BOTH L&R of the left sub and visa versa for the right side. This connection made a huge difference.

The right side woofer was adjusted to match the left. 

Again I had to lower the levels little by little to get it blended well but the difference in fullness was immediately obvious. No more nulls and the richness of the sound was far better. Not bad with one but two subs is amazing. Wow!

Some of the deeper base tracks could hit with real authority. At sound levels that could disturb the house next door. I was never near full on the volume knob and didn't need to go there. It was plenty loud. Acoustic base was rich and textured beautifully. Power was never an issue and I would imagine this would fill a somewhat larger room as well.

Though I didn't try this set-up for home theatre but I'd imagine in this size room there would be more than enough low end to satisfy. For music only I am totally satisfied. The sound is powerful, full and rich and as Jman pointed out "buy two" really makes a huge difference in the over all quality of the sound and take the time to set them up correctly. The appearance is plain black vinyl like an HSU or SVS and look on par with them. The point is they don't look cheap nor do they sound cheap and I'm proud to display them as they look much more expensive than they are. At this price point it's hands down THE BEST money I ever spent in audio... period. 

Thanks again Jman... I'd never have bought these if it wasn't for your review!


----------



## theJman

You're quite welcome. I'm glad they worked out so well for you. And thanks for posting your thoughts on how they perform! It's always beneficial when owners provide their first-hand experience.


----------



## in2bator

New to the forum and most HT stuff in general. Thanks in advance for any wisdom you have to share on this.

I am building a HT (movies and gaming use only) in a room (27x12x9 with sloping ceilings in front and back but flat in the middle) and am trying to minimize costs if possible since the house is so far overbudget. For subwoofers, it seems that this Dayton Audio 12 inch is awesome for the $$, but given my room size I'm thinking of getting a second unit. What about mixing the Dayton SUB-1200 and SUB-1500 in the same room? My thought is that it would extend my lower frequency coverage with the 15", but is that actually going to make a difference? And will it make it much more difficult to get set up correctly so they blend seamlessly or would I just be better with matching SUB-1200's? Or, finally, would I be better off spending the combined amount on a single unit from a different brand?

Happy Holidays!


----------



## AudiocRaver

Good questions, unfortunately the answers to them all is - _It depends._

How well subs will blend in a room depends on many factors, most difficult to predict. _Probably_ there would be no significant issues, assuming reasonably smooth raw response from both versions, the 15 in version _might_ lower the bottom end of your range a little, _no harm in trying_ - probably.0


----------



## theJman

in2bator said:


> What about mixing the Dayton SUB-1200 and SUB-1500 in the same room? My thought is that it would extend my lower frequency coverage with the 15", but is that actually going to make a difference? And will it make it much more difficult to get set up correctly so they blend seamlessly or would I just be better with matching SUB-1200's?


If the 1200 is closer to you than the 1500 it might work, but barring that it's probably not a good idea. When you have subwoofers with different potentials the less capable one will always run out of steam before the other, and when that happens it has a tendency to drag down the overall sound quality as a result of distortion. If the smaller subwoofer is closer that can mitigate the problem due to the fact it doesn't have to work as hard for you to hear it, so in essence they will reach maximum output at similar volume levels.



in2bator said:


> Or, finally, would I be better off spending the combined amount on a single unit from a different brand?


Your room is about 3000 ft^3, which means you would have to spend about double the $350 (combined) that those two subs would cost. You may be able to get away with something like the Rythmik LV12R, but it wouldn't be a good idea to consider anything less than that.


----------



## BC Dave

Hi Jim,

I see that you took pictures of the internals of the Sub 1200. I am curious as to what that woofer might weigh. I tried Parts Express's product support person and he was unable to tell me anything about the woofer's magnet weight or voice coil size. It apparently isn't a woofer that Parts Express sells separately. I am in Canada, where electronics are considerably more expensive than in the States, but I have owned subs costing five or six times as much as the Dayton Sub 1200 that did not outperform it and suffered from deal breakers like amplifier hum or one note bass. Loving my Sub 1200.


----------



## theJman

BC Dave said:


> I see that you took pictures of the internals of the Sub 1200. I am curious as to what that woofer might weigh. I tried Parts Express's product support person and he was unable to tell me anything about the woofer's magnet weight or voice coil size. It apparently isn't a woofer that Parts Express sells separately. I am in Canada, where electronics are considerably more expensive than in the States, but I have owned subs costing five or six times as much as the Dayton Sub 1200 that did not outperform it and suffered from deal breakers like amplifier hum or one note bass. Loving my Sub 1200.


I'm glad my review was beneficial, and that the SUB-1200 has worked so well for you. It's always nice to hear that someone has found value in one of my evaluations.

Historically, the only time I've weighed a driver is when it seemed to be abnormally heavy. That was not the case with the Dayton sub, so unfortunately I don't have an exact weight. The enclosure materials didn't strike me as overdone though, so my guess would be the driver was close to 50% of the total weight. If that proves true, figure 15 pounds or so.

Just curious, but is there a specific reason for wanting to know the driver weight? Several factors come into play when determining the capability of a subwoofer, none of which should be considered in isolation.


----------



## BC Dave

Thanks for your reply. I guess I equate woofer heft with quality, kind of like a beefy power supply in a power amp. But I admit that I know nothing about whether a woofer with a 16 ounce magnet versus one with a 16 pound one equates to anything relating to its performance capabilities. It's just that I have had some unde-rperforming speakers in the past and some of them had weeny magnets.


----------



## Gdaddy

BC Dave said:


> Thanks for your reply. I guess I equate woofer heft with quality, kind of like a beefy power supply in a power amp. But I admit that I know nothing about whether a woofer with a 16 ounce magnet versus one with a 16 pound one equates to anything relating to its performance capabilities. It's just that I have had some unde-rperforming speakers in the past and some of them had weeny magnets.


I conveniently have the speakers out of the cabinet. They weigh 6 3/4 lbs. total each.

Interestingly enough I checked the weight (for example) on the Dayton 12" HF driver and it has a magnet weight of 150 oz with a total weight of 25 lbs.


----------



## theJman

Gdaddy said:


> I conveniently have the speakers out of the cabinet. They weigh 6 3/4 lbs. total each.


Wow, lighter than I would have guessed.


----------



## BC Dave

Six pounds plus sounds reasonably hefty for the Sub 1200. Thanks for the information.


----------



## BC Dave

Hi Jim,

While still happy with my Sub 1200, I have read reviews that it is under powered. I spotted a used BIC F12 locally for a great price. Would it be an upgrade? If not, how about an Energy S10.3?


----------



## theJman

It's not really underpowered for what it is, a very inexpensive subwoofer. Given the cost of the parts PE can use it's actually pretty well balanced. Whether it's an upgrade depends upon what you're looking to achieve though.

The F12 is likely to have a bit more total output, and the Energy perhaps a touch more articulation, but either would be more evolution than revolutionary. You may be able to integrate either with the SUB-1200, but it would probably take a little bit of time and effort. That might be something to consider.


----------



## Gdaddy

I still have the sub 1200 ( I have 2 of them)and find that it has more than enough power in my small 15' x 15' room.

So it depends on what size room and what level you listen. A big room requires more power.

My understanding is that watts are watts. If your bass demand requires no more than say total of 100 watts of power then having an amp that can supply 300 or 500 watts is not any better than an amp that has 125 watts. I can play incredibly loud from the 1200's 125 watts of power amp. (I worry about my neighbors complaining from the house next door.) The gain knob is set around 11:00. 

The cabinet the 1200 is just fine also. The weak link imho is the driver. The only change I made was replacing the stock drivers with 12" NHT 4 ohm speakers. This change made a sizable improvement in quality of the bass. I stuffed the cabinets and sealed them.

A great replacement driver is the Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm. The 1200 amp will drive it just fine. This is a pretty easy to drive speaker 90.3 db 2.83volts/ 1 meter.

This driver should drop right in and can be used either ported or sealed and is a far better driver than the one you're using. BTW... there is a re-stock available for $81 right now.

https://www.parts-express.com/resto...4-12-reference-hf-subwoofer-4-ohm--88-295-464


----------



## BC Dave

The room is pretty large (14 by 23 feet) and opens up into the kitchen, dining room, living room and entrance hall. I also have a Tannoy TS2.10 powered sub complementing the Dayton. I am not listening at loud levels and to be honest I have never felt the urge for a more powerful sub. But I just wondered if something like the Energy would be a substantial step up. However, I also have to think of my poor wife, who sometimes tells me to turn the sub level down because the bass hurts her ears. I don't think she would be too enthusiastic about having a monster sub in the room. Thanks for your replies!


----------

