# Building a Music Server



## Sonnie

I don't know if I am headed down the right road or not, but I was looking for music server and man those things are expensive. I am seeing them costing $2,000 and more. Crazy!

I have built several computers over the years, so surely building a music server can't be all that hard... can it? And surely it will be less expensive than buying one.

I want something I can hookup in my dedicated theater/listening room. When I buy a CD, I want to be able to pop it in the unit and it convert it to a lossless format and store it on a hard drive (solid state). Then using some sort of music server program, I want to be able to easily find music and play it back on my system... with all the goodies showing up on my projector screen... and navigable with my learning remote... and if necessary maybe I will pickup a wireless keyboard. Naturally I want to also be able to load my fifty-eleven CDs that I own now onto the SSD. 

EDIT: This will connect to my Onkyo 5509 preamp/processor as a source. I only really care about it being a two-channel music server.


What do I need?

Case: standard sized box would be nice... 17" wide and nothing too terribly tall... as I only have so much room for height. 

Motherboard: ???

PSU: ???

SSD: 256GB should be plenty big enough I think... for the music I have. (I DO NOT care about video storage).

CD Drive: ???

Soundcard: ???

DAC: ???

Video card: ???

Software: ??? 


Looking for recommendations and options.

Thanks!


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## NBPk402

Have you checked out the Intel NUCs? They are very energy efficient and very small too. We have 3 of them in our house ( 2 i3s and a Celeron)... One is for our Home Automation/general use pc, and the other 2 are for media server duty. We also have a Atom CPU in our UnRaid NAS that holds all our movies, music etc. UnRaid is really nice as it is free (up to 3 drives if I recall correctly). Any amount after that is a small fee... I went with the next level up and I think I can do like 6 drives. What is real nice about UnRaid is every drive doesn't have to be the same size. The only requirement is that the parity drive must be at least as big as your biggest drive. The real nice thing for us is that each NUC draws less than 25w at full power and the NAS draws even less, meaning that we leave them on 24/7 for pennies. We stream 1080p movies across our gigabit lan and it works perfectly. We have 60gb SSDs in each NUC even though the media Servers only need a USB stick to boot from. The media servers run on OpenElec/XBMC and we love it.

I hope this helps you out... If you have any more questions just ask.


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## Sonnie

I have looked at a few NUCs, but was not all that impressed by what I read. I am concerned if I could get the same audio quality out of one of those as I get out of my OPPO 105, which I think I can do with a more robust music server if I built it. Plus, comparing XBMC with JRivers, I think I prefer JRivers.

I don't really care about streaming movies or sharing the music that will be stored on this drive. This unit will be solely for my listening room. I do want to be able to plug in an Ethernet cable to it from my router to have Internet access, to take advantage of media information on the music, but I can't stream music or movies due to DAP (FAP) on Satellite Internet. Actually, I will probably just connect this to my DSL line, which is too slow for streaming, but will suffice for simple stuff that I will need.

EDIT: A couple of other things I noticed... can't include a CD drive nor a DAC. It would require an outboard DAC and I would have to copy my music instead of extracting it straight to the SSD (or in this case the mSSD). That is not really what I am looking for. I want everything in one box.


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## ajinfla

Hi Sonnie,

My 2 ch music "servers":

A 1TB WD > Sony BDP-S570 usb (rear) in. Straight WAV files ripped with WMP. Use Sony GUI for navigation, controllable via Sony remote. HDMI (audio/video) outs to my Yamaha AVR, dual HDMI outs to TV and projector.
Various amps and speakers.

Daily use/shows: 750GB drive (also a media player itself) > netbook/laptop w/ NuForce Air wireless USB DAC.
Again, straight WAV rips to WMP via either internal (17" laptop) or external (10" netbook) optical drive.
The wireless receiver connected to stereo via rca analog outs.

The latter you've "heard/experienced" for yourself.

Oh, the "Dedicated HTPC" project I started 10yrs ago? Sitting in a closet somewhere, can't recall....

cheers


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## Savjac

I am pretty happy with mine and it is very simple, cheap and works all the time, well not cheap maybe. Here is what is needed.

One Computer, laptop or desktop does not matter.
USB or Coax or Toslink out of the computer
Run you choice of item 2 above to the AVR
Install Jriver ( Flac, Apple, mp3 and most anything else you wish, it also works on several computers for the price of one)
Load Music
Operate via smart phone app or ipad

Voila, any music, any format, any bit rate and you are good to go.

Cost: Computer - your choice, does not have to be a powerful one just needs good HD
Jriver Media Center version 19 - $50
Cable of your choice - $50 +/-
Music you already own
Phone/iPad app - $10 (Note the image of music and choice can pass to your PJ if you so choose at no extra cost.)

Total cost will depend on the computer you chose or build but should not need more than say $500.
So if we add everything we are under $ 650 or....you can use any computer you already have.

JRiver is infinitely adjustable in way of how and what is recorder, what genre, etc etc and also does movies and other still images. Highly recommended as I and friends have been using it for couple years now and it is wonderful.


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## Andre

I just put everything on my computer downstairs, and run ITunes it my Denon. For you I would "think" that one of those small Asus EEE netboxes would do the trick with whatever software you wish to use


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## Sonnie

So do I not need to be concerned with a DAC? I thought those were a must for computer audio, no?

I could connect a larger USB SSD to my OPPO 105 and take advantage of that DAC, which would certainly be good enough for me. However, I would not be able to use JRiver with that setup. I have not experimented with the OPPO app... but I will. I still have to worry with taking my laptop into the room to extract the music from any new CD I purchase... or bring the USB drive to my laptop.

The OPPO would certainly be the least expensive method, but still no JRiver, which is what I would really like after investigating it more.

I don't want to have to take my laptop into the room every time. Then I have to take my power cord and brick... and it is too bulky to have to use to navigate. I would really rather have a remote or maybe an iPad or something like that to use for navigation.


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## Savjac

Admittedly I have not used my Oppo as a dac so I am not sure how that works out. 
There are a couple ways that you can work this but I am thinking to get the BEST sound you may wish to have Jriver and an external Dac. Many folks that I have advised use their processor's built in dac and that is the cleanest way. Many do it wireless through an apple tv, but doing that will limit your bit rate to 24/48 I believe. When running music through most AVR's, you have some form of processing going on inside the AVR even when you are in direct mode, the processing is like a ghost hiding in the background.

I have found I get the best performance by using a desktop or laptop in the listening room which then feeds a USB Dac and then the Dac outputs to the 7,1 bypass inputs on the processor. If you do not mind having a relatively inexpensive semi dedicated computer in the room, with spinning or SSD (Quieter) you can have the very best sound now available in a "Regular" guy price range. 

I wish I could do a drawing here but it goes kind of simply:

Load music on computer or external drive.
Run USB cable to your Dac ( Many great dacs for under $500 including the dragonfly)
Run stereo audio out to your AVR

Done.
Then you can control it via the smart phone or Apple product. Sound quality: as good as it gets.


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## Sonnie

That is similar to what I was thinking... just build me a relatively inexpensive desktop computer with an SSD. But instead of an external DAC, just use a pretty good soundcard with built-in DAC. It might be interesting to compare that sound to the OPPO 105.


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## Savjac

It would be interesting. 
I have little experience with built in sound cards as most folks tend to stay away from them as one thing that the programs like Jriver does is bypass all of the Windows software junk. I wonder how a plan like yours would work and look forward to hearing your adventure. 

Oh just in case, please remember that lossless music takes up a fair bit of space and using SSD to hold it could carry a premium. There are proponents of keeping music on SSD due to no moving parts so no noise, no issues that a spinner would cause. I cannot really say I hear any difference but I have not spent all that much time comparing...maybe it is something i should think on for a bit.


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## Andre

no comment on asus eee box, u can load jrivers, it has a drive to load your cds, it tiny, 500gb ssd


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## Sonnie

Yeah... I did look at the Asus box, but it doesn't have a CD player does it? I also wasn't sure how good those built-in sound cards would be and it looked like I would need an outboard DAC. 

I have not compared my DAC in my Onkyo processor to the OPPO. It may be one of those things were I cannot hear a difference. Maybe Wayne and I can experiment next week when he is here and see if we can tell a difference. 

If I got the computer route, I won't use anything unless it is an SSD. 256GB should be enough to hold all of my CDs in FLAC format... maybe even WAVE.


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## ajinfla

The ASUS EB1503 has an optical drive. You would have to use an external usb DAC, unless your main system accepts usb in. Those SSDs are pricey.


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## Savjac

Hi Aj

When using a computer, there are a couple nice and easy ways to get around using another or external Dac if someone wishes to use the dac in their processor/avr.
The computer can have a coax out which would allow a very high bit rate into the processor/receiver. In addition, most computer laptops and desktops can be fitted with a toslink output as well. Lastly, and I have one should Sonnie wish to test this third way is to run a usb out into something like a V-link USB to SPDF converter which will also pass up to 24/192 rate. So several easy and relatively inexpensive ways to make it happen nice and spiffy.

I am not familiar with the dac in Sonnies AVR but I suspect it will work quite well.


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## fokakis1

WD Mybook Live (nas) hooked straight in to the router. Your Onkyo will pull all your files straight from there. The signal stays pure straight to your Burr Brown internal converter. Control with Onkyo remote, universal remote, or phone app. Total cost ~$100


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## ajinfla

Savjac said:


> The computer can have a coax out..


Unfortunately the Asus above does not. Nor did any fanless pc with optical drive that I saw, in my searches, out of curiosity. Perhaps some dedicated HTPC or built from scratch would.
A usb>optical is <$30.

cheers


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## dougc

I just set up JRiver ($49) to use as you are wanting to, I think. I bought a graphics card with HDMI ($80) for our existing desktop PC, run HDMI to the Onkyo 818. I have a wireless Logitech keyboard with touchpad and USB rf control for the PC ($20). My tv becomes the PC monitor so I can see the Theater View of JRiver. I burned all of my music files to an external 2tb drive. I really enjoy JRiver and have not even scratched the surface of it. I have a friend that knows quite a bit about the deeper intricacies of the programs dsp capabilities. I will ask him to chime in.


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## Andre

The Asus 1503 DOES have coax SPDIF output

http://www.asus.com/ca-en/Eee_Box_PCs/EeeBox_PC_EB1503#specifications

And this looks like an interesting site wrt computers and DACs


http://www.computeraudiophile.com/


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## Sonnie

dougc said:


> I just set up JRiver ($49) to use as you are wanting to, I think. I bought a graphics card with HDMI ($80) for our existing desktop PC, run HDMI to the Onkyo 818. I have a wireless Logitech keyboard with touchpad and USB rf control for the PC ($20). My tv becomes the PC monitor so I can see the Theater View of JRiver. I burned all of my music files to an external 2tb drive. I really enjoy JRiver and have not even scratched the surface of it. I have a friend that knows quite a bit about the deeper intricacies of the programs dsp capabilities. I will ask him to chime in.


That is basically what I want to do.

My 5509 has USB input, front and rear.

I think the only question will be is if the Onkyo 5509 DAC will be as good as any other, which I suspect it probably will be, but I won't know until I try it. I suppose if the OPPO ends up sounding better, I could then look at getting an external DAC. I just don't know anything at all about DAC's.

That EB1503 are about $500 + another $160-$200 for the SSD... and they only run 4GB RAM, which may be enough, but I am accustom to at least 8GB on everything else I own.

I don't know... I was thinking I could build something for $700-$800 that would be pretty robust, but I could be wrong. The last PC I built was under $1,000... and that was a couple of years ago.


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## andy_c

Most motherboards nowadays have HDMI out, provided you use a CPU with integrated graphics. HDMI could then be input to the 5509 to provide both audio and video, bass management, the whole works.


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## Sonnie

Andre said:


> And this looks like an interesting site wrt computers and DACs
> 
> 
> http://www.computeraudiophile.com/


I checked out that site pretty good yesterday. They have info on the C.A.P.S. unit that runs about $1,100. However, it is a smaller SSD. They use the SOtM tX-USBexp sound card that cost about $350.


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## Andre

I would think the DAC in the Onkyo would be good enough really. A small Netbox like the Asus can hold all the tunes and software like JRiver Then just HDMI it out to the receiver to process and play


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## Sonnie

I think I might go back to the Intel NUC... probably the i5 Kit with the bay for a 2.5" SSD. It just seems like it is a lot more robust for $375. Add the SSD and RAM... and I already have W7 Pro 64-bit... then add JRivers, a wireless keyboard and mouse... about $600-650. Use the Onkyo DAC. I got 30 days with Amazon if I don't like it.


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## NBPk402

Sonnie said:


> I think I might go back to the Intel NUC... probably the i5 Kit with the bay for a 2.5" SSD. It just seems like it is a lot more robust for $375. Add the SSD and RAM... and I already have W7 Pro 64-bit... then add JRivers, a wireless keyboard and mouse... about $600-650. Use the Onkyo DAC. I got 30 days with Amazon if I don't like it.


Sounds like a plan! I am very happy with my NUCs.


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## Sonnie

oops... that one is not available yet... only the i3 or the i5 with mSATA. 

The i5 with 2.5" drive support should be available any day.

These do have fans though... not sure how loud it will be.


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## Sonnie

I am seeing some fanless cases for the NUCs... so that might be an option if it is too loud. 

Still wondering if I could build something cheaper since this is all integrated. The mini-ITX motherboards are pretty inexpensive with integrated HDMI, Ethernet, USB 3.0... pretty much all I need. I can even put a CD drive in a mini-ITX case.


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## ajinfla

The newer fans are pretty quiet. You could check the noise spec for the Intel. Neither my notebook or laptop is fanless, but I've never heard either one...and that's sitting point blank, not across room in rack.
One of the reasons why I now generally eschew the BDP setup, is that I find even the TV display distracting (must be my audiophile disorder thing). The netbook off to side, not so much.
As for the Onkyo DAC question, I wouldn't worry about it. At least until I see a scintilla of controlled test data indicating otherwise, modern DACs are commodity parts. Unless one has those special "hearing" abilities 

cheers


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## ALMFamily

Following along closely Sonnie - glad you decided to go down this path because I have really been wondering which approach to take as well. 

When you decide which way to go, how about you just buy double the parts and build one for me too!


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## Savjac

I like that NUC idea, I had not seen that before.

Having been doing this music server/computer thing for a good many years now and believe me I am no expert, but I have learned a good number of lessons, some the hard way. At one point I think there may have been a 2" thick callus on my forehead from beating my head against the wall.

Please allow me to share some of what I learned and please add your thoughts as well. 

a) Chris Connaker knows his stuff. His site is a wealth of information and frankly has taught me a ton. I cannot afford much of what he suggests, but he is usually correct.

b) Jriver is the go to server software. Inexpensive and generally works great. There are others I have tried but they can be more expensive and/or a bit clunky. There are PC and Mac versions. 

c) iTunes works as well but does not support as many controls as Jriver

1) The DAC is very very important and can take a "Good" sounding system to a "Great" sounding system without having to spend millions. The factory Dac's in many AVR's do not always do the sound justice.

2) More HD memory is a must. Will explain further

3) Fanless is good but not a high priority. Will explain further

4) Needs to be all in one package, cd/dvd burner, wireless, ram, stable

5) OS not that important, Win 7 or Mac X is fine

6) Good processor - Intel i3 or above, same with the Mac

7) Base the computer on where you plan to keep it. 

8) Monitor for load and set up. 

9) Use as few cables as possible, it becomes complex and a mess if over thought

10) Load it up and enjoy !!!

Here is a start, I will put together some further thoughts to assist and maybe that will even bring more thoughts from ya'll


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## fschris

not sure if you are familiar with this but it is pretty cool. you can even hook it up to a Android phone. I use one of these on my PC and use Foobar to play my music.

http://www.jdslabs.com/products/46/standalone-odac/


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## dougc

ALMFamily said:


> Following along closely Sonnie - glad you decided to go down this path because I have really been wondering which approach to take as well.
> 
> When you decide which way to go, how about you just buy double the parts and build one for me too!


Me too! 

I have been using JRiver for about a month now and am really enjoying it. Finally I have it mostly working, but still have trouble getting some files to work with it without having to change several settings. HTS member Mojave has been using it for about 10 years and knows all of the details about JRiver's PEQ, and offered to help me with it once I have my current project under control. I'll message him and ask him to also chime in.

I set my JRiver system up fairly cheap with the help of Prerich. All my CDs are burned to a 2tb HD, desktop PC running win7 with ASUS GE Force GT610 graphics card with HDMI ($80), HDMI cable to the Onkyo 818 PC input, Logitech k400 RF keyboard with touchpad ($17). I use my main display as the monitor when using JRiver using the Theater View - I love it! I just listened to the FLAC Arcade Fire album and the sound is what I would expect from a FLAC. I'm interested to see what you do, as it will be over the top, I'm sure.


*** oops, just realized I double posted this. My first was from my phone and I thought I lost the first post. Two-fer!


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## Savjac

a)	Chris Connaker knows his stuff. His site is a wealth of information and frankly has taught me a ton. I cannot afford much of what he suggests, but he is usually correct.

b) Jriver is the go to software for most of us. It is inexpensive and is very very stable and can be manipulate in a zillion ways. It also can playback most any file, change the type of file, rip, burn and act as a library for all your media. iTunes works very well too and is free. iTunes is limited to apple extensions but that is not bad because it does sound good. There are a good many others but some remain clunky and/or expensive. I hope to hear about experiences with other software from the thread. 

1) The DAC is very very important and can take a "Good" sounding system to a "Great" sounding system without having to spend millions. The factory Dac's in many AVR's do not always do the sound justice.
Admittedly I have not heard every built in DAC out there but have heard the ones in most major brand of AVR. Denon and Marantz are not exact clones but very close. Onkyo seems on their own as is Yamaha, Pioneer, Sony. Nad and Cambridge are on their own but are oriented more toward sound quality than the others and may be able to hold their own when compared to many lower priced Dac’s. Remember, a Dac is generic to some extent, the sound of same will be controlled by the implementation of the manufacturer of the end unit. 
Denon and Marantz tend to add a bit of warmth to the sound and it is pleasant but I tend to like a bit more sparkle and life to my playback. Onkyo is not much different but also can be improved on. The others have similar issues however, the NAD and Cambridge do a very good job of implementing the Dacs used and may serve very well. 
Please note that while I believe the Dac's in many of the AVR's made today can be improved on, that does not mean one SHOULD try. It can get expensive and very daunting. Most of us will be very happy without separate components and rightly so. 

One note: If someone chooses to go the separate Dac route, ensure that your AVR has the 7.1 ext in bypass. If not, than an external processor may not be of great help. 

2) More Hard Drive space is a must.
When I first started this journey it appeared that hard drive space would not be an issue. A couple hundred CD’s stored in FLAC or Apple Lossess is not biggie. No need to go overboard here, I can always use and external drive.

Ahhh no, get a lot of storage space up front. Why ?? Music server turns into Media server. As you get used to these devices, they also tend to morph into music and movie servers. You might even find yourself putting photos on there or maybe occasionally doing a presentation from the listening seat. Ahhh NO you say, so did Jack, but I tell you, being able to control an entire media collection from one remote is a very powerful thing. DeMille would stand before you and smile at what can now be done. Want to edit a photo or movie or soundtrack, voila, you got it all covered. Some years and 25,000 songs and a good many movies and you have used up some space. A spinning HD is not an issue in that it will not be heard. I cannot be considered an expert on the sound reproduction difference between a spinning HD and a SSD. I have tried them both but cannot speak to the difference or sameness as one is PC and one is Mac.

3) Fanless is good but not a high priority. 
With wireless technology the actual hardware may be stored near the playback gear. Noise will not be an issue. If the hardware needs to be close to the user, again, no problem. During playback a 55db fan will not be heard during a listening session. Unless the volume of the programming is kept so low that it cannot be heard clearly. I have tried this using a regular PC Laptop, a Mac Book Pro and my desktop and I am good with my remarks. EXCEPT: The Alienware laptops. The fan noise and heat generated from those can get annoying. 

4) Needs to be all in one package, cd/dvd burner, wireless, ram, stable
Yep, you do not have to move hither and yon to load software. One stop shop/storage as they say is perfect and so easy to manage.

5) OS not that important, Win 7, 8 or Mac X is fine

6) Good processor - Intel i3 or above, same with the Mac
For music only, processing power is not all that important. However, I do believe that movies and such will find their way onto the media player and mashing those onto a HD does take some horsepower, especially for high Def (BR)

7) Base the computer on where you plan to keep it. 
Will you take it to a friends house for playback and/or watching or will it Always stay in the location in your home

8) No need for a high end audio card, you wont use it. You might get a toslink or coax output card but using Jrivers or other software tends to bypass the OS anyway. Most laptops have the toslink built into the headphone jack, one just needs a $2 adapter. 

There is a start, now lets discuss. :wave:


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## fokakis1

Sonnie said:


> I think the only question will be is if the Onkyo 5509 DAC will be as good as any other, which I suspect it probably will be, but I won't know until I try it.


IIRC, the 5509 has the 32 bit DACs as compared to 24 bit for most of the others in their lineup.


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## Savjac

This is where the learning stuff comes into play for me.

Do you know if there is any software such as movies or music that uses the 32 bit standard ? I just took a look and I see an average BR uses 24 bit. Does HDMI or other connections support that bit rate ? 
I wonder if this is Onkyo's. way of trying to future proof their equipment, things do change sooo fast. :unbelievable:


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## andy_c

Sonnie said:


> ... and I already have W7 Pro 64-bit...


If your W7 DVD is older, say before SP1, it can take considerable time to get all the Windows updates. I recently did this and the updates took more than 5 hours. One way to reduce this time by quite a bit is to download the official Windows 7 SP1 ISO files from Microsoft. This shaved a couple of hours off my update process, since SP1 is already part of that install disc. It's all legal, since legality is established by your license key.


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## Savjac

I was thinking and there is a really simple way of making this happen, to try if nothing else and it is cheap. 

AppleTv. It acts on its own, wirelessly and does not sound bad. No need for a separate computer until you need one, just load music into a computer on the network and into iTunes at lossless and that is the hard part, over.
Now, bring the AppleTv ($99) into your main room, plug it in and it will discover stuff for you. Put in your network password and go.

It will retrieve music, movies, images and most anything you wish to see or hear. No need for a monitor, keyboard or mouse as it is all done on your main computer. I think for 88.241% of the fine people out there, it will be great. 
Truly, no jokes. It just seems apple has this down very cleanly. Oh an you do not have to own a Mac.


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## fokakis1

Savjac said:


> I was thinking and there is a really simple way of making this happen, to try if nothing else and it is cheap.
> 
> AppleTv. It acts on its own, wirelessly and does not sound bad. No need for a separate computer until you need one, just load music into a computer on the network and into iTunes at lossless and that is the hard part, over.
> Now, bring the AppleTv ($99) into your main room, plug it in and it will discover stuff for you. Put in your network password and go.
> 
> It will retrieve music, movies, images and most anything you wish to see or hear. No need for a monitor, keyboard or mouse as it is all done on your main computer. I think for 88.241% of the fine people out there, it will be great.
> Truly, no jokes. It just seems apple has this down very cleanly. Oh an you do not have to own a Mac.


AFAIK, ATv resamples music to 48khz output if connected digitally to a DAC. DLNA, OTOH, will access and play network files in thier native format. A 96/24 file accessed from a DLNA server by a DLNA renderer (Bubble, Onkyo, etc.) will play at 96khz, 44.1khz rips will play at 44.1, and so on.


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## fschris

Savjac said:


> I was thinking and there is a really simple way of making this happen, to try if nothing else and it is cheap.
> 
> AppleTv. It acts on its own, wirelessly and does not sound bad. No need for a separate computer until you need one, just load music into a computer on the network and into iTunes at lossless and that is the hard part, over.
> Now, bring the AppleTv ($99) into your main room, plug it in and it will discover stuff for you. Put in your network password and go.
> 
> It will retrieve music, movies, images and most anything you wish to see or hear. No need for a monitor, keyboard or mouse as it is all done on your main computer. I think for 88.241% of the fine people out there, it will be great.
> Truly, no jokes. It just seems apple has this down very cleanly. Oh an you do not have to own a Mac.


UGhhh apple... just say no.


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## Savjac

fschris said:


> UGhhh apple... just say no.



:rofl2: I knew that was coming.


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## Savjac

fokakis1 said:


> AFAIK, ATv resamples music to 48khz output if connected digitally to a DAC. DLNA, OTOH, will access and play network files in thier native format. A 96/24 file accessed from a DLNA server by a DLNA renderer (Bubble, Onkyo, etc.) will play at 96khz, 44.1khz rips will play at 44.1, and so on.


Correct, I was posting about ease of use more than anything. A good number of folks do not want to be involved with high bit rates and what have you, so simple is best and it does sound good.


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## Sonnie

The Onkyo has 192K/32 Bit DACs -Burr-Brown (x6).

What might be interesting is getting something like JDS DAC, which is very inexpensive if it is needed and can improve the sound... and comparing it to the Onkyo DAC. 

Lots of good info here with lots of options. 

Thanks for that download link Andy... it could come in handy. I think my W7 copy has SP1, but still having all the other updates up front will be nice.


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## NBPk402

fschris said:


> UGhhh apple... just say no.


ROFL


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## prerich

Sonnie said:


> I don't know if I am headed down the right road or not, but I was looking for music server and man those things are expensive. I am seeing them costing $2,000 and more. Crazy!
> 
> I have built several computers over the years, so surely building a music server can't be all that hard... can it? And surely it will be less expensive than buying one.
> 
> I want something I can hookup in my dedicated theater/listening room. When I buy a CD, I want to be able to pop it in the unit and it convert it to a lossless format and store it on a hard drive (solid state). Then using some sort of music server program, I want to be able to easily find music and play it back on my system... with all the goodies showing up on my projector screen... and navigable with my learning remote... and if necessary maybe I will pickup a wireless keyboard. Naturally I want to also be able to load my fifty-eleven CDs that I own now onto the SSD.
> 
> EDIT: This will connect to my Onkyo 5509 preamp/processor as a source. I only really care about it being a two-channel music server.
> 
> 
> What do I need?
> 
> Case: standard sized box would be nice... 17" wide and nothing too terribly tall... as I only have so much room for height.
> 
> Motherboard: ???
> 
> PSU: ???
> 
> SSD: 256GB should be plenty big enough I think... for the music I have. (I DO NOT care about video storage).
> 
> CD Drive: ???
> 
> Soundcard: ???
> 
> DAC: ???
> 
> Video card: ???
> 
> Software: ???
> 
> 
> Looking for recommendations and options.
> 
> Thanks!


Budget? Give me your highest price point and I can work you out something that you will be well pleased with.


----------



## prerich

dougc said:


> Me too!
> 
> I have been using JRiver for about a month now and am really enjoying it. Finally I have it mostly working, but still have trouble getting some files to work with it without having to change several settings. HTS member Mojave has been using it for about 10 years and knows all of the details about JRiver's PEQ, and offered to help me with it once I have my current project under control. I'll message him and ask him to also chime in.
> 
> I set my JRiver system up fairly cheap with the help of Prerich. All my CDs are burned to a 2tb HD, desktop PC running win7 with ASUS GE Force GT610 graphics card with HDMI ($80), HDMI cable to the Onkyo 818 PC input, Logitech k400 RF keyboard with touchpad ($17). I use my main display as the monitor when using JRiver using the Theater View - I love it! I just listened to the FLAC Arcade Fire album and the sound is what I would expect from a FLAC. I'm interested to see what you do, as it will be over the top, I'm sure.
> 
> 
> *** oops, just realized I double posted this. My first was from my phone and I thought I lost the first post. Two-fer!


Mojave Knows his stuff!!!! If you think I'm a geek, he makes me look like a rank amature!!!! Glad to see that you've gotten your system straight! 

@Sonnie - Mojave is a pro! He uses Jriver as the crossover for his tri-amped speakers:unbelievable:!!! I've been using JRiver for about the last 5 years or so - and I use it very similar to Mojave (execpt I haven't tried disengaging my speakers crossovers and actively tri-amping them). I do use JRiver for PEQ, Linkwitz Transform on my sealed subs, and Room Correction. So if you have a question and you can't get to Mojave, I'll gladly attempt to answer it, if I can.


----------



## Sonnie

JRiver has a PEQ? I had no idea it would do all that. Very interesting. I need to download it to my laptop and experiment.

I don't really have a budget, other than I don't want to spend any more than I absolutely have to. The first thing I want to do is try to get at least an Intel i3 setup with an SSD. I need to look at my current music server where I have everything loaded as .mp3 files and convert those to the space .flac would require so that I can figure about how much space I will need in an SSD. But in the meantime, I will figure on a 256GB (+/-) ... with 8GB RAM... a CD drive and I guess HDMI out... or some sort of Digital out into either the PC or Digital input of my Onkyo and use the Onkyo DAC. Later I will determine if I need an outboard DAC.

I do not watch all that many BD movies... and rarely do I watch them twice. At least not often enough to warrant putting all my movies on a media server. My wife also does not use the theater room... period. The ONLY thing I want this system to do is store and play my music. It has gotten to where I basically listen to music or watch my Directv DVR shows... and a couple or three BD movies each month, and I will continue to use my OPPO 105 for those BD movies. So... there is no reason to try to add movies to the computer rig... strictly music please. Store and play with JRiver... and be able to see it on my big screen for navigation.


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> JRiver has a PEQ? I had no idea it would do all that. Very interesting. I need to download it to my laptop and experiment.
> 
> I don't really have a budget, other than I don't want to spend any more than I absolutely have to. The first thing I want to do is try to get at least an Intel i3 setup with an SSD. I need to look at my current music server where I have everything loaded as .mp3 files and convert those to the space .flac would require so that I can figure about how much space I will need in an SSD. But in the meantime, I will figure on a 256GB (+/-) ... with 8GB RAM... a CD drive and I guess HDMI out... or some sort of Digital out into either the PC or Digital input of my Onkyo and use the Onkyo DAC. Later I will determine if I need an outboard DAC.
> 
> I do not watch all that many BD movies... and rarely do I watch them twice. At least not often enough to warrant putting all my movies on a media server. My wife also does not use the theater room... period. The ONLY thing I want this system to do is store and play my music. It has gotten to where I basically listen to music or watch my Directv DVR shows... and a couple or three BD movies each month, and I will continue to use my OPPO 105 for those BD movies. So... there is no reason to try to add movies to the computer rig... strictly music please. Store and play with JRiver... and be able to see it on my big screen for navigation.


Yes!!!! And the trial is a 30 day fully operational version!!!! You can do all of that with Jriver, lossless rips, album art, its just sweet! Here's a graph of the measurements I achieved using the filters generated by REW and then placed into JRiver (my response up to 1khz).


----------



## Sonnie

Gotta have it!


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> Gotta have it!


Quick recommend - since you are doing this for just 2 channel - I'd recommend the m2tech hiface DAC http://www.m2tech.biz/hiface_dac.html - heard a lot of good things about this DAC (32bit/384khz). You would just need a stereo 3.5 mini jack to RCA to connect to your Onkyo.


----------



## Sonnie

I can always try to get that and the JDS and the DragonFly in here for a comparison... including comparing them to my Onkyo DAC.


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> I can always try to get that and the JDS and the DragonFly in here for a comparison... including comparing them to my Onkyo DAC.


That, would be nice, my friend!!!!!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## Savjac

In reference to size some look like this:

Tea for The Tillerman: 24/192 is about 1.3 gb
Norah Jones: 24/192 is similar
Norah Jones: 24/96 is about 900mb
Fleetwood Mac:24/96 is just over 900mb
Fleetwood Mac Rumours is 1.28gb
CSN: 24/96 is about 1gb

Most CD's that are not high def would be about 250-400 mb. So that should assist a bit.


----------



## Sonnie

I have about 9000 songs that are taking up roughly 90GB of space, however, a small percentage of those are wave and flac... maybe 10%.

That is roughly 92,000MB ... so roughly 10MB per song. That is probably close since most of the mp3 files are variable bit rate at around 225kbps.

I only plan to store about 30% of those songs, simply because a ton of it is my wife's country that I just don't have enough tears to listen to. Then another portion of it is her disco from the yesteryears, that I am too stiff to move to.

So figure on 3,000 songs at about 40MB per song for flac (looks like most of mine are around 35MB)... totals to 120,000MB or 117GB. Even at 50MB per song it would be about 146GB.

Need 20GB for Windows 7 Pro 64-bit and whatever for JRiver.

256GB SSD should be good.


----------



## SteveMA

Sonnie said:


> I don't know if I am headed down the right road or not, but I was looking for music server and man those things are expensive. I am seeing them costing $2,000 and more. Crazy!
> 
> I have built several computers over the years, so surely building a music server can't be all that hard... can it? And surely it will be less expensive than buying one.
> 
> I want something I can hookup in my dedicated theater/listening room. When I buy a CD, I want to be able to pop it in the unit and it convert it to a lossless format and store it on a hard drive (solid state). Then using some sort of music server program, I want to be able to easily find music and play it back on my system... with all the goodies showing up on my projector screen... and navigable with my learning remote... and if necessary maybe I will pickup a wireless keyboard. Naturally I want to also be able to load my fifty-eleven CDs that I own now onto the SSD.
> 
> EDIT: This will connect to my Onkyo 5509 preamp/processor as a source. I only really care about it being a two-channel music server.
> 
> 
> What do I need?
> 
> Case: standard sized box would be nice... 17" wide and nothing too terribly tall... as I only have so much room for height.
> 
> Motherboard: ???
> 
> PSU: ???
> 
> SSD: 256GB should be plenty big enough I think... for the music I have. (I DO NOT care about video storage).
> 
> CD Drive: ???
> 
> Soundcard: ???
> 
> DAC: ???
> 
> Video card: ???
> 
> Software: ???
> 
> 
> Looking for recommendations and options.
> 
> Thanks!



Check out this link:
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2013/09/the-2013-htpc-build.html
You can get some ideas (good ones I believe) here. He went overkill on the RAM and the HDD storage so you could save some money there. Should be able to build a nice media (music server for under $1000). I built one in 2011 and am acquiring the part to build another.

FWIW I use JRiver MC18 which has suited my needs nicely.
SteveMA:T


----------



## Sonnie

Lots of good ideas there... and not too expensive either.


----------



## ajinfla

Sonnie said:


> The Onkyo has 192K/32 Bit DACs -Burr-Brown (x6).
> 
> What might be interesting is getting something like JDS DAC, which is very inexpensive if it is needed and can improve the sound... and comparing it to the Onkyo DAC.


Well, if evidence exists that modern DACs can "improve" the sound (especially of discs, made with last decades ADCs........or analog tape :rolleyesno, I haven't seen it. Quite the contrary.
And no, "I heard it" doesn't count .
Luckily, a DAC test would be, relatively speaking, easy to do. Match the voltages of the Denons pre-main outputs to that of the X, feed both to a high quality line level switch or preamp and hear away.
I know what my money would be on regarding outcome.
(Sonnie & Co deaf, system not "revealing" enough, cheap USB cable confused the bits, the switch stunk/"masked" the effect, etc, etc. notwithstanding)

cheers


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> Lots of good ideas there... and not too expensive either.


Here's a nice setup that I've pieced together: 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116946

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128654

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167151

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820104338

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163194

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817159082

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135204

This one meets your specs (and above) it would cost you about $640.00 before rebates - $600 after. Oh you will also want to add Windows 7 - and that will be up to you whether you have a valid licence or must purchase a new one. Fifty dollars for JRiver and you are set!!!! If you have any issues on putting it together , you know where to call me and I just live down the road a bit. I could even spec something less expensive that would do the job perfectly (since you only want to do lossless music in the first place - makes it a lot easier). :T:bigsmile::T


----------



## Sonnie

Why don't you just put it together for me and ship it to me? :huh: Oh yeah... for free!!! :heehee:

Thanks for doing this research for me... looks pretty good.

Two questions:

Do you think this is going to be quiet in the HT room with 3 fans (2 case + 1 power supply)?

Can I go straight USB out to USB in on my Onkyo and use my Onkyo DAC... are the USB ports all input or also audio output?


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> Why don't you just put it together for me and ship it to me? :huh: Oh yeah... for free!!! :heehee: Thanks for doing this research for me... looks pretty good. Two questions: Do you think this is going to be quiet in the HT room with 3 fans (2 case + 1 power supply)?  Can I go straight USB out to USB in on my Onkyo and use my Onkyo DAC... are the USB ports all input or also audio output?


I'm not worried about the power supply fan, 140mm fans a very quiet. The CPU fans on the new processors are also quiet. It's the 2 case fans I'm a little concerned with, i usually change them out for quiet fans.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## ajinfla

Sonnie said:


> Can I go straight USB out to USB in on my Onkyo and use my Onkyo DAC


Yes



Sonnie said:


> ... are the USB ports all input or also audio output?


On what?



Sonnie said:


> Why don't you just put it together for me and ship it to me?


These guys can http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=8567811&SRCCODE=WEBGOOPA&cm_mmc_o=mH4CjC7BBTkwCjCV1-CjCE&gclid=CL3Ey7GfgLwCFXJk7AodZUgA9g 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?gclid=CM2lveafgLwCFSEV7Aod_DkASg&Item=N82E16883220389&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-All+Desktop+PCs-_-N82E16883220389&ef_id=UdoTkwAAAKrOAS09:20140115130714:s 
Swap out for your SSD...or connect externally, use internal as data backup, allow for future upgrade without opening case.
Don't overthink this thing man (audiophile paralysis), just do it :T

cheers


----------



## RTS100x5

Sonnie said:


> That is similar to what I was thinking... just build me a relatively inexpensive desktop computer with an SSD. But instead of an external DAC, just use a pretty good soundcard with built-in DAC. It might be interesting to compare that sound to the OPPO 105.


Sonnie, 
This sound card has nothing but audiophile written all over it in terms of S/N ratio and quality parts therin...
and has 7.1 analog .... I absolutely swear by my 7.1 analog as is also has some pretty expensive Op Amp upgrades 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829271005


----------



## RTS100x5

Sonnie said:


> Why don't you just put it together for me and ship it to me? :huh: Oh yeah... for free!!! :heehee:
> 
> Can I go straight USB out to USB in on my Onkyo and use my Onkyo DAC... are the USB ports all input or also audio output?


These would only be USB inputs... PCs have no USB outputs ... Then your talking about a DAC ...the problem with the EE and NUC pcs is no audiophile grade output....

ALTHOUGH looking at the new GIGABYTE GA-H81.Amp-UP LGA 1150 motherboard - it does have a dedicated USB to DAC output which is a first as far as I know.... Im still trying to find the audio specs for the rest of that board...


----------



## RTS100x5

Here is a inexpensive PC + audiophile sound card 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx? ItemList=Combo.1497861

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148693

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829271005

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116986

This is a very nice AMD quad core CPU Kit - cause no one wants a slow PC :rolleyesno:
It has an SSD for the OS and 1tb for storage 

PC COMBO KIT $339
SSD $89
Sound Card $249
Windows $99

$776 with Win7 or 8
$677 without Win


----------



## prerich

RTS100x5 said:


> Sonnie,
> This sound card has nothing but audiophile written all over it in terms of S/N ratio and quality parts therin...
> and has 7.1 analog .... I absolutely swear by my 7.1 analog as is also has some pretty expensive Op Amp upgrades
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829271005


It's a very nice card indeed - I have one in my secondary HTPC. I've just replaced my Asus Essence ST/H6 in my main system with a Phonic Firefly 808 Universal audio controller - just working out some routing issues with "Mojave" :clap::T


----------



## prerich

RTS100x5 said:


> These would only be USB inputs... PCs have no USB outputs ... Then your talking about a DAC ...the problem with the EE and NUC pcs is no audiophile grade output....


You beat me to the punch - I just saw that post. @Sonnie - RTS100X5 is right - you can't take usb from your PC and place it into your receiver, you will need an external Dac, or if you want to use the Onkyo's DAC - you will have to bitstream your data via HDMI to the Onkyo.


----------



## Sonnie

ajinfla said:


> On what?
> 
> Don't overthink this thing man (audiophile paralysis), just do it :T


On the computer. Just curious if all I need is a USB cable to go from the computer to the Onkyo 5509. Which is probably a silly question since I read this:

_Featuring a gold plated USB 2.0 port, GIGABYTE USB DAC-Up provides clean, noise-free power delivery to your Digital-to-Analog Converter. DACs can be sensitive to fluctuations in power from the other USB ports, which is why GIGABYTE USB DAC-Up takes advantage of an isolated power source that minimizes potential fluctuations and ensures the best audio experience possible._

But I am an overthinker with everything man! lol .... I am already in the audiophile enthusiast aficionado wheelchair and one of the wheels is flat.

After Wayne leaves I will do a bit of investigating on the options... because I hate to do anything without investigating.

I did quickly look over that GIGABYTE GA-H81.Amp-UP LGA 1150 Intel H81 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX Intel Motherboard... and it looks like they have tried to somewhat appease the audiophile with that one. Of course it has been several years since I looked at motherboards and then it wasn't for a music server.


----------



## Sonnie

Ah... I did not read all the posts before replying to AJ.

Okay... so I CANNOT just simply go out of that USB DAC-UP port with a USB cable straight to the Onkyo 5509 USB input on the back?

And I now answer my own question from the 5509 manual: _Do not connect the AV controller’s USB port to a USB port on your computer. Music on your computer cannot be played through the AV controller in this way._

I was thinking the 5509 had an external DAC that would allow this, but I guess not.

So HDMI is what I will be using from the computer to the 5509.

UNLESS I spend another $250 to get an "audiophile" sound card, which I won't do initially, but I might experiment later.


----------



## ajinfla

Sonnie said:


> On the computer. Just curious if all I need is a USB cable to go from the computer to the Onkyo 5509.


Yes, that's all you should need. Feed the bitstream and allow the Onkyo DA to C. Typically, that is the most jitter free way to do it, better than HDMI, not that I've seen any evidence to support audibility of jitter in modern equipment...much less older.
That's how I do it with all my laptops. Unless there is something wacky with the Onkyo recognizing the device as a drive. Too long ago, but iirc, with my Sony BDP, the 1TB drive had to be formatted FAT32. 
If the Onkyo can't, then you insert an ODAC or similar bus power DAC between and feed either analog or digital in on Onkyo.

cheers


----------



## Sonnie

Okay... we will check it today by connecting my laptop to the Onkyo.


----------



## RTS100x5

Here is the audio specs / features of the GIGABYTE H81 Amp motherboard - which is a REALTEK ALC 898 chip..

The first thing that concerns me is this " with Realtek proprietary loss-less content protection technology that protects pre-recorded content while still allowing full-rate audio enjoyment from DVD audio, Blu-ray DVD, or HD DVD discs." which just maybe the latest blah blah HDCP whatever that they use just to cover their liability...
Second is the S/N ratio's that are less than what I would settle for....

The price point of this board is awesome though and I wouldnt hesitate to use it in a very low budget system.:heehee:

http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PFid=28&Level=5&Conn=4&ProdID=325


----------



## Savjac

I think that USB out of your computer is fine. Great as a matter of fact Sonnie. The sound car will be bypassed when using JRiver as windows likes to put their finger on everything it can control. 

No you may not run usb computer to usb in on the Onkyo but it will go to the Oppo as a Dac and then into the Onkyo. USB acts as an input or output device on the computer as I use it every day. There are many USB to SPDF or toslink adapters out there and they work very very well. They can be as cheap as twenty bucks or mucho expensive. I have a V-Link and it really does not seem to hurt the sound in any way.
Trust me, you do not have to be complicated here, actually complication is the LAST thing you want.
Easy Peasy is the thought of the day. 










USB Into the VLink











Output Side of the VLINK


----------



## Savjac

RTS100x5 said:


> Here is the audio specs / features of the GIGABYTE H81 Amp motherboard - which is a REALTEK ALC 898 chip..
> 
> The first thing that concerns me is this " with Realtek proprietary loss-less content protection technology that protects pre-recorded content while still allowing full-rate audio enjoyment from DVD audio, Blu-ray DVD, or HD DVD discs." which just maybe the latest blah blah HDCP whatever that they use just to cover their liability...
> Second is the S/N ratio's that are less than what I would settle for....
> 
> The price point of this board is awesome though and I wouldnt hesitate to use it in a very low budget system.:heehee:
> 
> http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PFid=28&Level=5&Conn=4&ProdID=325


This is a good product and I have Realtek on my computer but, it is not the Onkyo or the Oppo. It works but....naw it works fine, but again, I bypass the Realtek when using the server JRiver.


----------



## Sonnie

Actually the GB motherboard has Optical out... which is what we have pretty much been using on the OPPO to the Onkyo, although Wayne nor I can hear a difference between the HDMI and Optical (swap with one button press on the remote).


----------



## ajinfla

Sonnie said:


> And I now answer my own question from the 5509 manual: _Do not connect the AV controller’s USB port to a USB port on your computer. Music on your computer cannot be played through the AV controller in this way._


Ouch.
Though the http://www.neweggbusiness.com/Product/Product.aspx?gclid=COW-xvLCgLwCFcTm7Aodk3sATg&Item=9B-83-220-316&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleBiz&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleBiz-_-pla-_-All+Desktop+PCs-_-9B-83-220-316&ef_id=UdoTkwAAAKrOAS09:20140115154414:s does have SPDIF out.....and dreaded Windows 8


----------



## Savjac

ajinfla said:


> Yes, that's all you should need. Feed the bitstream and allow the Onkyo DA to C. Typically, that is the most jitter free way to do it, better than HDMI, not that I've seen any evidence to support audibility of jitter in modern equipment...much less older


Good point AJ, I was going to ask about that. I hear so much chatter about jitter and how it does evil things to the digital stream but I really do not know if I have ever heard it or not. What does it sound like and is it easily identifiable ?

Might you have any thoughts on this question ?


----------



## Savjac

Sonnie said:


> Actually the GB motherboard has Optical out... which is what we have pretty much been using on the OPPO to the Onkyo, although Wayne nor I can hear a difference between the HDMI and Optical (swap with one button press on the remote).


You are spot on here, in theory there should be no difference as it is most likely that the Onkyo is decoding the digital signal that it is being fed whether it is HDMI or Optical or Coax for that matter. All digital inputs should sound the same.

If you would change the settings in the Oppo to output PCM then you may hear the Oppo Dac doing the decoding via HDMI. Based upon the awesome sound quality in the Oppo, I would suggest doing just this, AND using the Oppo as a USB server, it would kill the competition. 

Well I think it would.


----------



## Sonnie

Yeah... simple and inexpensive to start with. If I don't like the sound, I can look at adding or changing later. 

Was there suppose to be a link to the H81 audio specs? Just curious.


----------



## ajinfla

Sonnie said:


> Okay... we will check it today by connecting my laptop to the Onkyo.


Lotsa cross posting here, but from what you quoted, that won't work with the Onkyo.
Luckily, the SPDIF connection will.
Just use a $5k SPDIF cable, you should be all set.


----------



## Sonnie

Yeah... we are posting all over each other this morning.

The optical out should work okay... and I have a $5 optical cable... no problem. :bigsmile:

Oh wait.... you suggest $5K... I am sure Savannah Jack has one I can borrow. :whistling:


----------



## RTS100x5

The reason I dont favor the PC > OPPO DAC > is this . You would have to switch back and forth from PC to OPPO as a video source to select/play/control the music .


----------



## Savjac

Sonnie said:


> Yeah... we are posting all over each other this morning.
> 
> The optical out should work okay... and I have a $5 optical cable... no problem. :bigsmile:
> 
> Oh wait.... you suggest $5K... I am sure Savannah Jack has one I can borrow. :whistling:


Oh yeah, I have a whole box full, what color would you like ??? 

NOT, what would I do with a $5,000 cable or better yet, the check I used to pay for it would bounce over the moon. :blink:


----------



## RTS100x5

Sonnie said:


> Yeah... simple and inexpensive to start with. If I don't like the sound, I can look at adding or changing later.
> 
> Was there suppose to be a link to the H81 audio specs? Just curious.


Looks like the REALTEK site is now out of order :dumbcrazy:

Now its back go figure 

http://www.realtek.com/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PNid=24&PFid=28&Level=5&Conn=4&ProdID=325


----------



## ajinfla

Savjac said:


> Good point AJ, I was going to ask about that. I hear so much chatter about jitter and how it does evil things to the digital stream but I really do not know if I have ever heard it or not. What does it sound like and is it easily identifiable ?
> 
> Might you have any thoughts on this question ?


Sure Jack. Audiophiles are rumored to be able to "hear" all manners of things, jitter being one. Except of course, when tasked with doing so with ears only. The, things tend to unravel. It's been done.
Jitter exists. As does THD, the earths magnetic field and sunspots. We can measure each ones magnitude in an electro-acoustic system.
Hearing/perceiving them OTOH, is another matter entirely.

That's also why I consider modern DACs largely commodity parts. Don't tell me one can "hear" them, show me.

cheers


----------



## Sonnie

I was not talking about using the OPPO as the external DAC, although I could. I can assign the video on the Onkyo to whatever input I want... so assigning the computer video (through HDMI) to the OPPO audio input is not an issue.

What I have been talking about is feeding the computer Optical straight to the Onkyo DAC (32/192 Burr Brown)... the OPPO would not be in the loop.


----------



## prerich

RTS100x5 said:


> Here is the audio specs / features of the GIGABYTE H81 Amp motherboard - which is a REALTEK ALC 898 chip..
> 
> The first thing that concerns me is this " with Realtek proprietary loss-less content protection technology that protects pre-recorded content while still allowing full-rate audio enjoyment from DVD audio, Blu-ray DVD, or HD DVD discs." which just maybe the latest blah blah HDCP whatever that they use just to cover their liability...
> Second is the S/N ratio's that are less than what I would settle for....
> 
> The price point of this board is awesome though and I wouldnt hesitate to use it in a very low budget system.:heehee:
> 
> http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PFid=28&Level=5&Conn=4&ProdID=325


I spec'd that board for it's price (not the chip) seeing that Sonnie wants to use the DAC from his Onkyo - so he will be bitstreaming anyway


----------



## prerich

@all   Seeing that Sonnie wants to bitstream (either via optical, coax, or HDMI), the audio chip on the board doesn't play into the final sound, he's just streaming the raw untouched data to his Onkyo Dac's  

Now if you are going to do all of your processing within the computer (using PEQ or other DSP), then yes - I would recommend a separate sound card. With that said - my recommendations would be determined by the purpose of the machine. 

Movies 5.1 or 7.1: I would recommend the Asus Essence ST/STX with the H6 addon card or the HT Omega Claro Halo XT (I own both of these cards). I would also consider a professional audio interface for multi channel playback. 

Music 2 channel: You could use any of the above without the addon cards (H6 for Asus or the XT for the Claro Halo), but with the mass rash of usb dongle DAC's - you can get something nicer. Offerings from Audioquest, Meridian, M2face, Audioengine, Schitt, and others dominate this portion of the market and they sound wonderful!!!! 

To make it simple - Bitstreaming = don't buy an audio card...your receiver's Dac does all the processing
Analog out = Buy a GOOD audio card or separate DAC. You will attach the analog outs to your receiver or amplifier. 

:bigsmile:


----------



## fokakis1

Sonnie said:


> I was not talking about using the OPPO as the external DAC, although I could. I can assign the video on the Onkyo to whatever input I want... so assigning the computer video (through HDMI) to the OPPO audio input is not an issue.
> 
> What I have been talking about is feeding the computer Optical straight to the Onkyo DAC (32/192 Burr Brown)... the OPPO would not be in the loop.


If this is where you are headed, then why the HTPC? Why not rip FLAC straight to a NAS using free software (EAC or foobar2000), remove the PC from the equation, then let your Onkyo pull straight from the NAS via DLNA (wired network connection works best here). Same end result, but you don't have to have a PC in your listening room running all the time. You can control your server with remote or phone/tablet app, fan noise is eliminated, you'll have your on-screen display with album art and save the subscription to jriver.


----------



## Savjac

Sonnie said:


> I was not talking about using the OPPO as the external DAC, although I could. I can assign the video on the Onkyo to whatever input I want... so assigning the computer video (through HDMI) to the OPPO audio input is not an issue.
> 
> What I have been talking about is feeding the computer Optical straight to the Onkyo DAC (32/192 Burr Brown)... the OPPO would not be in the loop.



Yes Dear, I gotcha now.


----------



## ALMFamily

With all this cross posting going on, I am super confused!

My question - I thought Sonnie wanted to use theater view for JRiver. If that is the case, don't you need to get a video and audio signal from the PC to the receiver? If so, how do you accomplish that?


----------



## prerich

ALMFamily said:


> With all this cross posting going on, I am super confused!
> 
> My question - I thought Sonnie wanted to use theater view for JRiver. If that is the case, don't you need to get a video and audio signal from the PC to the receiver? If so, how do you accomplish that?


Simple HDMI connection. I use Theater View all the time. It shows up on my 50 inch flat screen as well as my 106 inch front projection screen. 

He could also transmit audio via coax or toslink as well. Video through HDMI (I think his Onkyo also has an RGB input as well). There's no problem getting the video and audio to the receiver ... piece of cake


----------



## ALMFamily

prerich said:


> Simple HDMI connection. I use Theater View all the time. It shows up on my 50 inch flat screen as well as my 106 inch front projection screen.
> 
> He could also transmit audio via coax or toslink as well. Video through HDMI (I think his Onkyo also has an RGB input as well). There's no problem getting the video and audio to the receiver ... piece of cake


Apologies - the reason I ask is that I decided to use a desktop I had sitting for over a year unused as my server, but it does not have an HDMI connection. I am assuming this would require me to add a card in order to facilitate that - any suggestions?


----------



## prerich

fokakis1 said:


> If this is where you are headed, then why the HTPC? Why not rip FLAC straight to a NAS using free software (EAC or foobar2000), remove the PC from the equation, then let your Onkyo pull straight from the NAS via DLNA (wired network connection works best here). Same end result, but you don't have to have a PC in your listening room running all the time. You can control your server with remote or phone/tablet app, fan noise is eliminated, you'll have your on-screen display with album art and save the subscription to jriver.


Foobar2000 still requires an OS to run - so the NAS will have to have some version of Windows on it - basically making it a HTPC anyway. Now having a NAS just to hold your content and playback via DLNA is a different matter, but to have the tagging data and album art in foobar2000, you will need Windows XP sp2 or newer, 7/8, or Server 03,08,or 2012. EAC is basically a ripping tool. Now, if you are saying that he should use his laptop to host foobar2000 and EAC, connect a NAS to his network, store his content there - then yes it would work, but either way - he will need a PC of some type to host foobar2000 and EAC.


----------



## prerich

ALMFamily said:


> Apologies - the reason I ask is that I decided to use a desktop I had sitting for over a year unused as my server, but it does not have an HDMI connection. I am assuming this would require me to add a card in order to facilitate that - any suggestions?


Get an Nvidia GT430 or GT6XX series card if all you need is video (non-gaming) and bitstreaming audio. :T


----------



## prerich

ALMFamily said:


> Apologies - the reason I ask is that I decided to use a desktop I had sitting for over a year unused as my server, but it does not have an HDMI connection. I am assuming this would require me to add a card in order to facilitate that - any suggestions?


P.S. no apologies needed


----------



## RTS100x5

prerich said:


> @all   Seeing that Sonnie wants to bitstream (either via optical, coax, or HDMI), the audio chip on the board doesn't play into the final sound, he's just streaming the raw untouched data to his Onkyo Dac's
> 
> Movies 5.1 or 7.1: I would recommend the Asus Essence ST/STX with the H6 addon card or the HT Omega Claro Halo XT (I own both of these cards). I would also consider a professional audio interface for multi channel playback.
> 
> :bigsmile:


Do you use the 7.1 Analog outs ? what is your impression of them vs HDMI or digital processing ?? I have the BURSON discreet Opamps going and it just surpasses the HDMI output in every way IMO. Yes my sound card has HDMI out


----------



## prerich

RTS100x5 said:


> Do you use the 7.1 Analog outs ? what is your impression of them vs HDMI or digital processing ?? I have the BURSON discreet Opamps going and it just surpasses the HDMI output in every way IMO. Yes my sound card has HDMI out


I love using the Analog outs! I must however qulaify what I'm doing with my machines. I'm using JRiver for custom PEQ and forgoing Audyssey (I got rid of my RC-HT180/807 that I was using for a prepro in my main system). All of my processing is done by my PC and I just love it. The thing I like most has nothing to do with sound quality - which is equal IMHO, it has to do with repair cost!!!! It's nice to know that you can now repair anything that goes wrong with your system with the exception of an amplifer!!!! I've use HDMI in the past, even though I know what's said about HDMI and jitter, I have no bad feelings toward it, but I do like the analog outs.


----------



## RTS100x5

prerich said:


> I love using the Analog outs! I must however qulaify what I'm doing with my machines. I'm using JRiver for custom PEQ and forgoing Audyssey (I got rid of my RC-HT180/807 that I was using for a prepro in my main system). All of my processing is done by my PC and I just love it. The thing I like most has nothing to do with sound quality - which is equal IMHO, it has to do with repair cost!!!! It's nice to know that you can now repair anything that goes wrong with your system with the exception of an amplifer!!!! I've use HDMI in the past, even though I know what's said about HDMI and jitter, I have no bad feelings toward it, but I do like the analog outs.


Great point on the repair costs - hadnt thought of that


----------



## ajinfla

ALMFamily said:


> Apologies - the reason I ask is that I decided to use a desktop I had sitting for over a year unused as my server, but it does not have an HDMI connection. I am assuming this would require me to add a card in order to facilitate that - any suggestions?


It this strictly 2ch/music like Sonnies, TV for GUI? What connections do you have?


----------



## Savjac

Do you use JRiver as well ?

The reason I ask is that I just use a USB cable from the computer to the equipment and use the JRiver app on my phone. However, if you are not stuck on JRiver, iTunes and a small appleTv box would do you well, wirelessly and it is very very stable.


----------



## fokakis1

prerich said:


> ...if you are saying that he should use his laptop to host foobar2000 and EAC, connect a NAS to his network, store his content there - then yes it would work, but either way - he will need a PC of some type to host foobar2000 and EAC.


This is exactly what I am suggesting. For example, he could rip to flac/tag with foobar and copy to the NAS (or tell foobar to set the NAS as the destination for the rip). Then the PC is no longer needed. The Onkyo will pull the files directly from there.

I use a WD live 3TB NAS with 11,000 flac files. A 192/24 flac file starts within 1 second and never skips.


----------



## Sonnie

I don't want to have to haul my laptop into the room every time... and I want to tinker around with JRiver. I wouldn't mind comparing Audyssey to my own PEQ setup via JRiver. I think Audyssey might have the advantage due to phase adjustments, but who knows if I can hear it. Still something fun to tinker with... and I already have JRiver... done deal. Just need something to go with it. :T 

Wayne and I have concluded that the 192kHz/32bit Burr-Brown DACs in the Onkyo are equally as good as the OPPO Sabre DACs.

We set it up so we could switch between each one in an instant with the press of a remote button.

We listened to both in Pure Audio... switching back and forth. We listened to both in Stereo with Audyssey equalization on... and with Audyssey equalization off.

After extensive critical listening (and I can tell you Wayne has absolute golden ears) we could not hear even a smidgen of a difference between the OPPO Balanced using the OPPO Sabre DAC vs. the OPPO Digital Optical using the Onkyo Burr Brown DAC.

We could not hear a difference between Pure Audio on the Onkyo vs. Stereo with Audyssey EQ set to off, with the speakers running full range.

All of our listening was then confirmed with frequency response sweeps, which matched up perfectly. The only difference was we had to run the Digital Coax out instead of Optical for the sweep, as we did not have anyway to get Optical from the computer to the Onkyo. Balanced, HDMI, RCA, Coax, Optical... they all sound the same here... and what we could measure was all the same.


----------



## RTS100x5

So we are back to square 1 ? A budget PC with good audio SQ ?


----------



## Savjac

Thank You gents for the excellent and in depth testing you did. We will all benefit greatly.


----------



## Sonnie

RTS100x5 said:


> So we are back to square 1 ? A budget PC with good audio SQ ?


It is looking like that.

I think one thing I might miss is being able to use my remote for everything. I am able to use it to scroll through my music files on my USB flash drive and adjust the volume all very easily with the remote.

Now I will be using a mouse. I DO NOT want to use my iphone. I don't want to spend money on an iPad when this is all I would use it for.

I guess I can fix me up a little platform to hold a keyboard and mouse pad. Maybe something like this:










What do you guys do for control over your music server when you got a big screen/projector screen, etc.

*Remember I am sitting in a recliner. *:bigsmile:




Savjac said:


> Thank You gents for the excellent and in depth testing you did. We will all benefit greatly.


You are very welcome!

We will be testing several amps tomorrow.


----------



## RTS100x5

I set my clients up with this and it serves as a PC > Media Player > Keyboard ... has descent range and is small enough that you wont need the expense of a platform to rest it on....I did exhance the bluetooth range by connecting the USB dongle with a 6ft USB extension to a spot several ft up the wall where the HTPC is.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823126039

There are I believe several less expensive BT keyboards with trackpads but I havent demo'd any....


----------



## Sonnie

I am trying to get my bearing here on what will work best. That mini keyboard might work, but I would still have to have a mouse. I haven't used a touchpad cause I despise them.

Think more about the iPad. I have something from Sony I can get for free, like an iPad... whatever theirs is called. Anyway... let's just say I get an iPad... will the same thing show up on my projector screen that shows on the iPad and as I make changes on the iPad it also changes the screen? Never owned an iPad, so I am not familiar with how that works. I assume I would connect through Bluetooth... as my wireless Internet connection is not very good from in my listening room. The server will be wired Ethernet run from the router, which is 100' of cable away. So I am thinking Bluetooth would be the easiest in the room between an iPad and the server. I just can't get a grasp on how it all exactly works.


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> I am trying to get my bearing here on what will work best. That mini keyboard might work, but I would still have to have a mouse. I haven't used a touchpad cause I despise them. Think more about the iPad. I have something from Sony I can get for free, like an iPad... whatever theirs is called. Anyway... let's just say I get an iPad... will the same thing show up on my projector screen that shows on the iPad and as I make changes on the iPad it also changes the screen? Never owned an iPad, so I am not familiar with how that works. I assume I would connect through Bluetooth... as my wireless Internet connection is not very good from in my listening room. The server will be wired Ethernet run from the router, which is 100' of cable away. So I am thinking Bluetooth would be the easiest in the room between an iPad and the server. I just can't get a grasp on how it all exactly works.


i use a cheap K-mart android tablet and the JRiver Gizmo app (free).

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## Savjac

I use my iPad and iPod Touch and yes they work well. I have never tried putting the remote screen of the iPad onto the display, so not sure about that but will try this AM. 
The good thing about the iPad is, it just works, no difficult set up and it is large enough to be able to punch the buttons and read the liner notes etc.
You also have the option to purchase a slightly older iPad new for much less money.

I am not sure which direction to send you, I know which direction I went and it may not be for you. I will, as any of our members would, assist in any way I can.


----------



## Savjac

Sonnie said:


>


I have this exact lap pad in my room, it is good and keeps the laptop head off my lap.


----------



## ALMFamily

Sonnie said:


> I am trying to get my bearing here on what will work best. That mini keyboard might work, but I would still have to have a mouse. I haven't used a touchpad cause I despise them.
> 
> Think more about the iPad. I have something from Sony I can get for free, like an iPad... whatever theirs is called. Anyway... let's just say I get an iPad... will the same thing show up on my projector screen that shows on the iPad and as I make changes on the iPad it also changes the screen? Never owned an iPad, so I am not familiar with how that works. I assume I would connect through Bluetooth... as my wireless Internet connection is not very good from in my listening room. The server will be wired Ethernet run from the router, which is 100' of cable away. So I am thinking Bluetooth would be the easiest in the room between an iPad and the server. I just can't get a grasp on how it all exactly works.


Thanks for asking this question because this is the route I was planning on going - although I will be able to go completely wireless as my hub is actually in my ht closet. I am just wondering if the iPad display and theater view display sync up so you can see what you are doing on the big screen...


----------



## Sonnie

IF the PC software is going to be separate from the iPad "app" software... two different pieces of software with two different OS (W7 vs iOS7) running JRiver on two different platforms, it would pretty much have to be a "sync" type action. 

OR... is the app merely controlling the W7 PC install of the program, in which case the interface would look identical on the iPad and the PC. The iPad would merely be a remote.

JRemote appears to be a "remote" app... I assume that means it controls JRiver on the PC.


----------



## Sonnie

There is also WebGizmo


----------



## ALMFamily

So, perhaps you would have to have two available - a keyboard to run the theater view so that you can interact directly with the PC and then, say, if you are running a zone 2, you use Webgizmo to do what you need...


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> IF the PC software is going to be separate from the iPad "app" software... two different pieces of software with two different OS (W7 vs iOS7) running JRiver on two different platforms, it would pretty much have to be a "sync" type action.
> 
> OR... is the app merely controlling the W7 PC install of the program, in which case the interface would look identical on the iPad and the PC. The iPad would merely be a remote.
> 
> JRemote appears to be a "remote" app... I assume that means it controls JRiver on the PC.


It's an app that controls Jriver on the PC. However with JRemote or with Gizmo, you not only can control JRiver - but you can stream you music to DLNA compatible devices on your network. I.E. you could stream your music to your iPad and listen through headsets if you're in another room, or watch a movie in one room and stream music to another (I've done this before).


----------



## ALMFamily

prerich said:


> It's an app that controls Jriver on the PC. However with JRemote or with Gizmo, you not only can control JRiver - but you can stream you music to DLNA compatible devices on your network. I.E. you could stream your music to your iPad and listen through headsets if you're in another room, or watch a movie in one room and stream music to another (I've done this before).


Boy, the more I hear about JRiver, the more I am looking forward to using it...

I am pretty certain of my path now - I will have to update my own thread so I stop cluttering up yours Sonnie... :R


----------



## Sonnie

Can it be Bluetooth operated? As stated earlier, my router is a long ways off and relying on wireless Ethernet from the iPad to the router to control the PC is going to be a stretch. 

The iPad and PC would need to communicate via Bluetooth.

Joe... we will still need a keyboard and mouse to do the PC functions from time to time. Wireless would be nice, but not sure of the range. In my situation, I will be 12 feet away from the PC.


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> Can it be Bluetooth operated? As stated earlier, my router is a long ways off and relying on wireless Ethernet from the iPad to the router to control the PC is going to be a stretch.
> 
> The iPad and PC would need to communicate via Bluetooth.
> 
> Joe... we will still need a keyboard and mouse to do the PC functions from time to time. Wireless would be nice, but not sure of the range. In my situation, I will be 12 feet away from the PC.


Make sure you get an RF mouse and Keyboard - 12 feet should be handled rather easily. I'm sorry to say that I know nothing of Bluetooth with JRiver:sad:. I do mine by wireless N, and I have my main PC's hardwired.


----------



## ALMFamily

Sonnie said:


> Can it be Bluetooth operated? As stated earlier, my router is a long ways off and relying on wireless Ethernet from the iPad to the router to control the PC is going to be a stretch.
> 
> The iPad and PC would need to communicate via Bluetooth.
> 
> Joe... we will still need a keyboard and mouse to do the PC functions from time to time. Wireless would be nice, but not sure of the range. In my situation, I will be 12 feet away from the PC.


Yup, I figured as much and already have a wireless mouse and keyboard for mine. However, my PC will be outside the theater so I doubt the keyboard and mouse will work through the wall...


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> Can it be Bluetooth operated? As stated earlier, my router is a long ways off and relying on wireless Ethernet from the iPad to the router to control the PC is going to be a stretch.
> 
> The iPad and PC would need to communicate via Bluetooth.
> 
> Joe... we will still need a keyboard and mouse to do the PC functions from time to time. Wireless would be nice, but not sure of the range. In my situation, I will be 12 feet away from the PC.


Sonnie, I may have spoken too soon. I just learned this from good ole' Microsoft. 

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/...uetooth-and-other-wireless-or-network-devices


----------



## prerich

ALMFamily said:


> Yup, I figured as much and already have a wireless mouse and keyboard for mine. However, my PC will be outside the theater so I doubt the keyboard and mouse will work through the wall...


If its a good RF model and the computer is not further than 33 ft away - Yes it can work through a wall. Check and see what type you have and its signal range. :T


----------



## ALMFamily

prerich said:


> If its a good RF model and the computer is not further than 33 ft away - Yes it can work through a wall. Check and see what type you have and its signal range. :T


This day just keeps getting better and better - thanks mate!


----------



## Sonnie

That should work.

The PC will be hardwired to the router.

Joe... RF will extend through walls.


----------



## AudiocRaver

Catching up on the thread a little...

Having (in a previous life) done instrumentation design work using precision DACs and ADCs by the likes of Burr Brown and other makers of precision converters like Analog Devices, I have great difficulty conceiving of there being any characteristics in their high-resolution offerings that could make them "unmusical" or any "less musical" than any competitor. I am confident that the 32 bit 192 kHz Burr Brown DAC in the Onkyo PR-SC5509 would be invisible in a blind test, long- or short- term.

Thinking EQ: jRiver with its built-in parametric EQ plus Audyssey MultEQ XT-32 built into the Onkyo gives pretty much unlimited flexibility for EQ (as needed) for your two-channel system, no?

By the way, watch out for Audyssey Dynamic EQ if you have thoughts of using that for music, it can disrupt your imaging. :innocent:


----------



## AudiocRaver

Any way to run a USB cable under your carpet so you can have a USB hub permanently set up at your Primary Listening Position?


----------



## Savjac

Sonnie said:


> IF the PC software is going to be separate from the iPad "app" software... two different pieces of software with two different OS (W7 vs iOS7) running JRiver on two different platforms, it would pretty much have to be a "sync" type action.
> 
> OR... is the app merely controlling the W7 PC install of the program, in which case the interface would look identical on the iPad and the PC. The iPad would merely be a remote.
> 
> JRemote appears to be a "remote" app... I assume that means it controls JRiver on the PC.


The interface on the ipad and the pc are pretty close but not exact so this is a sync thing with very real images and information
Here are actual shots of the iPad screen in jriver

Main listing by any way you choose, I have artist checked, also see on right is alphabet to tap directly to other letter besides a for example.










Here I actually went down a layer to show information as to tracks, times etc










Here is the shot of the bit rate and other information re the album. This is a unique feature in jriver.











Here is a basic shot of the desktop on my PC. they can be manipulated a great deal


----------



## Savjac

AudiocRaver said:


> Catching up on the thread a little...
> 
> Having (in a previous life) done instrumentation design work using precision DACs and ADCs by the likes of Burr Brown and other makers of precision converters like Analog Devices, I have great difficulty conceiving of there being any characteristics in their high-resolution offerings that could make them "unmusical" or in "less musical" than any competitor. I am confident that the 32 bit 192 kHz Burr Brown DAC in the Onkyo PR-SC5509 would be invisible in a blind test, long- or short- term.
> 
> Thinking EQ: jRiver with its built-in parametric EQ plus Audyssey MultEQ XT-32 built into the Onkyo gives pretty much unlimited flexibility for EQ (as needed) for your two-channel system, no?
> 
> By the way, watch out for Audyssey Dynamic EQ if you have thoughts of using that for music, it can disrupt your imaging:innocent:.


No clue here really other than what I am told. I understand that the dac proper is not the sound portion of the stream and as such, it is the implementation of the dac in a circuit designed by any given manufacturer that will determine how the converter will sound. I have not been able to test that theory as all of my dacs have a different processor within so I cannot compare apples to apples so to speak. 

I can say that several of us have listened and there are differences and to use Sonnies term, subtle differences to be sure


----------



## Sonnie

Jack... have you tried remote controlling JRiver on your desktop with your iPad? Can doing things on your iPad change things on your desktop screen?


----------



## Savjac

Sonnie said:


> Jack... have you tried remote controlling JRiver on your desktop with your iPad? Can doing things on your iPad change things on your desktop screen?


Yes, as I change albums or songs or genre etc, the screen on my desktop changes as well.

Here is a quick photo, ipad on bottom, they are not perfect but the do match music.


----------



## mojave

prerich said:


> I spec'd that board for it's price (not the chip) seeing that Sonnie wants to use the DAC from his Onkyo - so he will be bitstreaming anyway


Hi, prerich. It is good to see you over here. I'm glad you figured out your issue.

It is better to decode on the computer and send as PCM via HDMI. That way you can utilize JRiver's power PEQ and routing capability.

Regarding keyboards, I use the Logitech K400 and can control my HTPC through walls. It's 3.5" touchpad is really nice and lets you you swipe and 2 finger scroll. 

AudiocRaver, you probably live about 45-60 minutes from me. Do you want to come over sometime for a demo of JRiver Media Center? I use HTPC > multi-chanel DAC > amps > speakers/subs. I have two IB subwoofer manifolds with four AE IB15 drivers in each manifold. The manifolds are slightly outside my mains. With JRiver I use separate setups for music vs movies using Zones and ZoneSwitch. JRiver automatically switches to the correct setup depending on content. This lets me use the subs as stereo flanking subs with wider, shallower slopes for music and steeper slopes/mono for movies.


----------



## prerich

mojave said:


> Hi, prerich. It is good to see you over here. I'm glad you figured out your issue.
> 
> *It is better to decode on the computer and send as PCM via HDMI. That way you can utilize JRiver's power PEQ and routing capability.*
> 
> Regarding keyboards, I use the Logitech K400 and can control my HTPC through walls. It's 3.5" touchpad is really nice and lets you you swipe and 2 finger scroll.
> 
> AudiocRaver, you probably live about 45-60 minutes from me. Do you want to come over sometime for a demo of JRiver Media Center? I use HTPC > multi-chanel DAC > amps > speakers/subs. I have two IB subwoofer manifolds with four AE IB15 drivers in each manifold. The manifolds are slightly outside my mains. With JRiver I use separate setups for music vs movies using Zones and ZoneSwitch. JRiver automatically switches to the correct setup depending on content. This lets me use the subs as stereo flanking subs with wider, shallower slopes for music and steeper slopes/mono for movies.


 You are correct, he wouldn't be able to use the PEQ while bitstreaming. Like I said in an earlier post - Mojave makes me look like an amateur:rofl:!!!! 

Not to hijack .... but, yeah, I figured it out :nerd:. Once I went through the channels and saw that the Firefly was sending a signal but channel 5 and 8 were not receiving - I figured it was the brand new wiring:spend:


----------



## Sonnie

mojave said:


> AudiocRaver, you probably live about 45-60 minutes from me.


Well... he flew over here to Alabama on Monday and ain't leaving until tomorrow. If he is only an hour from you, you might not ever get rid of him. YES... he will be there... guaranteed!


----------



## ALMFamily

Sonnie said:


> Well... he flew over here to Alabama on Monday and ain't leaving until tomorrow. If he is only an hour from you, you might not ever get rid of him. YES... he will be there... guaranteed!


I am beginning to think I need to move - so many people in the KC area and Nebraska too!


----------



## Sonnie

You would flat out be fortunate to have Wayne's ears close by... he definitely hears things I cannot hear.

I hope I can have this server finished by the time you guys get here in February... so we might get to use it for the event.


----------



## ALMFamily

Sonnie said:


> You would flat out be fortunate to have Wayne's ears close by... he definitely hears things I cannot hear.
> 
> I hope I can have this server finished by the time you guys get here in February... so we might get to use it for the event.


Oh, that would be fun!

I still need to get you my tracks - I have not forgotten...


----------



## Savjac

This server should be done in no more than an hour, hour and a half tops. The equipment does the work for you.
I can say that the playback of music this way has spoiled me to no end. It one takes their time in picking what is to be played, it rarely hangs up and the sound is as good as a CD if not slightly better....as subtle difference dont you know.

Good Luck


----------



## prerich

And Sonnie - if you want a base PC, and if you don't mind a quad core AMD here's one that will get you where you want to go and only 460.94!!!!! 

3.8ghz quad core, 8gb ram, 240gb SSD, hdmi video/audio, and Radeon 3000 graphics in a HTPC case. 

You'll need to buy Windows, but I don't know if you have it already or if you need another license - add about $120.00 for a license. 


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106289
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813135349
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148717
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113291
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148694
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811144231

Not bad for a music only server - you can add extra storage as needed. I'm only do this according to spec and to what you want (not what others may want you to have:spend: )


----------



## andy_c

prerich said:


> And Sonnie - if you want a base PC, and if you don't mind a quad core AMD here's one that will get you where you want to go and only 460.94!!!!!
> 
> 3.8ghz quad core, 8gb ram, 240gb SSD, hdmi video/audio, and Radeon 3000 graphics in a HTPC case.
> 
> You'll need to buy Windows, but I don't know if you have it already or if you need another license - add about $120.00 for a license.
> 
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106289
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813135349
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148717
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113291
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148694
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811144231
> 
> Not bad for a music only server - you can add extra storage as needed. I'm only do this according to spec and to what you want (not what others may want you to have:spend: )



That CPU you listed has a maximum power dissipation of 125 Watts. There's a good chance it will run pretty hot and require aggressive cooling with attendant noise.

I recently did two builds with the quad-core AMD APU (<- rogue link) listed below:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113288

It is 65W max. I used this motherboard:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130662


----------



## prerich

andy_c said:


> That CPU you listed has a maximum power dissipation of 125 Watts. There's a good chance it will run pretty hot and require aggressive cooling with attendant noise.
> 
> I recently did two builds with the quad-core AMD APU (<- rogue link) listed below:
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113288
> 
> It is 65W max. I used this motherboard:
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130662


Well - it would run with standard cooling (considering he's only using it as a music server and not taxing the CPU load at all:innocent: ). However - Yes, that's an even better deal - a dollar less on the cpu, and a decent mb to match! Hey, we're all here to help :sweat:

I guess because I'm using an ancient quad Intel processor and my machine is pretty quiet (more quiet than my pro-amp, I need to go ahead and mod that thing) that I failed to look deeper (I've only performed 2 FM builds - most of my others are intel and AM3+ amd builds) creature of habit, I guess. Thanks for the recommendation!!!! It's better than mine!


----------



## Savjac

wow i had no idea building a computer was this complex :yikes:


----------



## andy_c

I also found an interesting thing with that build. When I first put the machine together, I installed only the network drivers for the Realtek chip and the MSI Control Center utility which monitors CPU temps among other things. Then I did a bunch of Windows updates. I found the CPU temp went up to 55 deg C, much higher than I had hoped.

Then I installed the AMD chipset drivers from the motherboard install CD, which enables the AMD "Cool 'n' Quiet" feature. CPU temperature dropped to 30 deg C! I am really happy with how cool it runs now.


----------



## prerich

Savjac said:


> wow i had no idea building a computer was this complex :yikes:


Yeah, but when you know how...it's just plain fun!!!! I'm an A+ Certified technician and I've been building my own rigs since the intel 486 days:yikes:!!!!


----------



## dougc

ALMFamily said:


> So, perhaps you would have to have two available - a keyboard to run the theater view so that you can interact directly with the PC and then, say, if you are running a zone 2, you use Webgizmo to do what you need...


I do this, but I find myself using the keyboard mostly since it's easy to flip over to the internet while I'm listening to music


----------



## Sonnie

I am not necessarily married to Intel, although I have the "mindset" bias of thinking Intel is better and that I can hear a difference between Intel and AMD... expecting Intel to be better. Maybe it is subtle. :sarcastic:

I hope to have some more time to check out some of these recommendations now that Wayne is gone. He kept me on my toes with everything we were doing this week. Great guy to have around for a week too. :T

I love building computers... lots of fun tinkering with them.


----------



## Sonnie

I think I am pretty much sold on the Gigabyte GA-H81.AMP-UP motherboard... with the i3 processor.

Probably the only thing I am not certain about in prerich's list is the case. The verdict is still out on that.



prerich said:


> Here's a nice setup that I've pieced together:
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116946
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128654
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167151
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820104338
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163194
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817159082
> 
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135204
> 
> This one meets your specs (and above) it would cost you about $640.00 before rebates - $600 after. Oh you will also want to add Windows 7 - and that will be up to you whether you have a valid licence or must purchase a new one. Fifty dollars for JRiver and you are set!!!! If you have any issues on putting it together , you know where to call me and I just live down the road a bit. I could even spec something less expensive that would do the job perfectly (since you only want to do lossless music in the first place - makes it a lot easier). :T:bigsmile::T


----------



## Sonnie

I think I will step on up to the 240GB Intel 335 as well.

What do you guys think about the Samsung Electronics 840 Pro Series 2.5-Inch 256 GB SATA 6GB/s Solid State Drive .


----------



## Savjac

I love the flash hard drive, it makes everything go smoothly. It is fast, can boot from off cold in about 20 seconds, changing apps is almost complete before you take your finger off the mouse button. No real sound unless the fans come on and in my case, no real sound period.
I dont think you can go wrong this was boss, these things just seem to work, oh and no spin up time. Very cool.

For your controller the iPad 2 or newer with one of these. 










In reality you should just get a macbook air is it small quiet and stuningly fast. You can even take it to the bathroom if you need to


----------



## RTS100x5

Sonnie said:


> I think I will step on up to the 240GB Intel 335 as well.
> 
> What do you guys think about the Samsung Electronics 840 Pro Series 2.5-Inch 256 GB SATA 6GB/s Solid State Drive .


Thats the exact SSD drive Im using in my main PC now...1yr+ its fast and has not given me any problems thus far ..


----------



## RTS100x5

Sonnie said:


> I think I am pretty much sold on the Gigabyte GA-H81.AMP-UP motherboard... with the i3 processor.
> 
> Probably the only thing I am not certain about in prerich's list is the case. The verdict is still out on that.


Ideas on those components

I see there are some issues with that Silverstone case and HTPC cases with that horizontal design tend to be cramped anyway..
Ive always been a CORSAIR fan for RAM, power supplies , cases and they make an inexpensive all in one water cooler thats far superior to a noisy fan...

Question ? Are you going with the onboard Intel Graphics ?


----------



## fschris

andy_c said:


> I also found an interesting thing with that build. When I first put the machine together, I installed only the network drivers for the Realtek chip and the MSI Control Center utility which monitors CPU temps among other things. Then I did a bunch of Windows updates. I found the CPU temp went up to 55 deg C, much higher than I had hoped.
> 
> Then I installed the AMD chipset drivers from the motherboard install CD, which enables the AMD "Cool 'n' Quiet" feature. CPU temperature dropped to 30 deg C! I am really happy with how cool it runs now.


amd is just so bad... I always go with intel. I am a gamer and the heat and noise AMD chips produce are just mind numbing.


----------



## fschris

This is just amazing... love it. Glad to se MB makers build specs like this into the boards

Sonnie wrote: View Post 
I think I am pretty much sold on the Gigabyte GA-H81.AMP-UP motherboard... with the i3 processor.

Probably the only thing I am not certain about in prerich's list is the case. The verdict is still out on that.


Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...4-building-music-server-15.html#ixzz2qlHoPn3k


----------



## RTS100x5

My 2 cents worth on CORSAIR - especially the watercoolers - Ive used on my last 5 builds and they are a no brainer compared to air cooling - especially OEM fans. I have them in all my PCs . That case Im using in my office PC and I found it on sale at Microcenter for $39....

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811139018

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233180

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139049

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181010


----------



## andy_c

Sonnie said:


> What do you guys think about the Samsung Electronics 840 Pro Series 2.5-Inch 256 GB SATA 6GB/s Solid State Drive .


I recently got the 128GB version and it's been great. It's my first SSD, so I don't have much experience yet. I picked it out by sorting internal SSD drives based on user review rating at newegg. Samsung seems to dominate this category, having both a very large number of reviews and high ratings. Here's the link to the SSDs sorted by rating:

*http://www.newegg.com/Internal-SSDs/SubCategory/ID-636?Order=RATING*

Intel does very well in the ratings too.

(Note: my links are only in bold, all others have somehow been auto-generated)


----------



## Sonnie

RTS100x5 said:


> Thats the exact SSD drive Im using in my main PC now...1yr+ its fast and has not given me any problems thus far ..


Which one? I posted two links.



RTS100x5 said:


> Question ? Are you going with the onboard Intel Graphics ?


Yes... no movies... mainly JRiver (for music) and Internet.



andy_c said:


> (Note: my links are only in bold, all others have somehow been auto-generated)


You may have copied a bold link... the * tags were included. I removed them for you.*


----------



## RTS100x5

Oh srrry the 256gb Samsung ..


----------



## prerich

RTS100x5 said:


> Ideas on those components I see there are some issues with that Silverstone case and HTPC cases with that horizontal design tend to be cramped anyway.. Ive always been a CORSAIR fan for RAM, power supplies , cases and they make an inexpensive all in one water cooler thats far superior to a noisy fan... Question ? Are you going with the onboard Intel Graphics ?


I'm using a Silverstone case and I have no problem with it. Remember, he wants to put it in a rack...vertical cases don't fit the bill there. He's using onboard graphics because he has no desire to game or watch movies, so to keep cost down - inboard is good enough.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## prerich

Sorry Sonnie, but us geeks can sound like audiophiles discussing cable lifters at times!!! :rotfl: if you get a gamer in this thread they will up-sell you to the latest 7xxx AMD of 7xx Nvidia card when all your going to do IC view your playlist and album art, a HT guy like me will try to get you buy a professional audio interface with 26 I/O's when all you want to do is send LPCM to a receiver, or a network analyst will insist that you install Windows Server 2012!!! We don't want to crowd you out, confuse, or misled you - all of the systems suggested will do what you want them to do - if this machine is dedicated to music, leave it as simple as possible, but most of us geeks multitask, that's why you're getting so many different answers. I wouldn't water cool unless you are comfortable with it, Intel is usually quieter and runs cooler. (But cost more). I personally have had. O problems with Intel or AMD for this purpose..and if you want you PC to look like a piece of gear (which I think was in your original requirement) a horizontal case is a must....besides- you're not putting very many components into the case! Your call Sonnie -and remember most of all...have fun with it!!!!!  

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## Sonnie

Yeah... horizontal case it a must.

I appreciate all the various recommendations.... at least it gets me to thinking.

On the RAM recommendation. I seen you recommended an 8GB stick. Are you suggesting just the one stick... or a pair? Do I need 16GB or is 8GB sufficient with what I am building? Is it better to have 2 x 4GB or 1 x 8GB?

Thanks!


----------



## Savjac

As a non computer geek, it is my understanding that the music server does not need to be all powerful like that man behind the curtain, but rather an average processor, ram, hd etc etc as it will not be worked very hard at all. I know as I am playing back, my computer rarely even raises the fan speed if at all, so its not like rendering video or what have you

I have been known to be wrong, but that is my understanding


----------



## prerich

Savjac said:


> As a non computer geek, it is my understanding that the music server does not need to be all powerful like that man behind the curtain, but rather an average processor, ram, hd etc etc as it will not be worked very hard at all. I know as I am playing back, my computer rarely even raises the fan speed if at all, so its not like rendering video or what have you I have been known to be wrong, but that is my understanding


You, are correct sir 

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> Yeah... horizontal case it a must. I appreciate all the various recommendations.... at least it gets me to thinking. On the RAM recommendation. I seen you recommended an 8GB stick. Are you suggesting just the one stick... or a pair? Do I need 16GB or is 8GB sufficient with what I am building? Is it better to have 2 x 4GB or 1 x 8GB? Thanks!


8 us more than enough for your needs. You could go 2x4gb sticks or one 8gb stick. The one 8gb stick would leave a slot open to go to 16 later (if yo so desire) 

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## Sonnie

That is pretty much what I am gathering, which is why I was thinking 8GB RAM would be plenty.

If the case exposed the CD drive on the front, I will want a drive without any white writing on front... mayb this Sony.


----------



## Sonnie

I will just get the one stick of 8GB for now then... leave that option of upgrading later if I decided one day to do something more serious with it.


----------



## Sonnie

Okay... I think I have settled on everything but the case... the verdict is still out on that. 

I think I am becoming to like the Silverstone Lascala after researching it more, but want to make sure.


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> That is pretty much what I am gathering, which is why I was thinking 8GB RAM would be plenty. If the case exposed the CD drive on the front, I will want a drive without any white writing on front... mayb this Sony.


The Silverstone that I own hides everything except the power button, but it's more expensive.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> Okay... I think I have settled on everything but the case... the verdict is still out on that. I think I am becoming to like the Silverstone Lascala after researching it more, but want to make sure.


Thats my case 

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## andy_c

Sonnie said:


> You may have copied a bold link... the * tags were included. I removed them for you.*


*

I put them back in. I purposely made them bold so the links I inserted could be distinguished from the rogue links inserted by the forum software (<-rogue link).*


----------



## Sonnie

Oh... you mean the generated links by Skimlinks. If you hover those it will tell you it is a Skimlinks link. Plus they just link words... they do not insert full URL links. 

prerich... do you have your HTPC in your room with you and is it quiet?


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> Oh... you mean the generated links by Skimlinks. If you hover those it will tell you it is a Skimlinks link. Plus they just link words... they do not insert full URL links. prerich... do you have your HTPC in your room with you and is it quiet?


yes it's in my room and is fairly quiet, I can't hear it when watching a movie, I can bearly hear it durning extremely quiet music passages ( I have to actually listen for it). I could make it silent with either water cooling or using an extreme heat-sink, but it's pretty quiet already.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## AudiocRaver

mojave said:


> AudiocRaver, you probably live about 45-60 minutes from me. Do you want to come over sometime for a demo of JRiver Media Center? I use HTPC > multi-chanel DAC > amps > speakers/subs. I have two IB subwoofer manifolds with four AE IB15 drivers in each manifold. The manifolds are slightly outside my mains. With JRiver I use separate setups for music vs movies using Zones and ZoneSwitch. JRiver automatically switches to the correct setup depending on content. This lets me use the subs as stereo flanking subs with wider, shallower slopes for music and steeper slopes/mono for movies.


Pardon my slow response to your generous invitation. I don't multitask like I used to could, have just decompressed from an intense few days with Sonnie's new speakers.

Absolutely! I will PM you directly to arrange a get-together. I will probably download and install jRiver MC first to get my feet wet with it for a couple of days, then have intelligent questions for you.

I am looking forward to it already!


----------



## AudiocRaver

Lots of talk about cooling. I suggest using a Nexus power supply and all other fans by Nuctua.

Here is what I have running. Two tower-sized systems, each with a Phenom II x6 processor (one with 8 GB and the other 16 GB of RAM), each with multiple hard disks in addition to a SSD for the system disk, and each with a medium-power video card - just to give an idea of the heat to be dissipated by the cooling system. Both are capable of staying cool with all CPU cores running at 100%. "Staying cool" means core temps of 46 to 48 degrees C - at idle those core temps are in the 34 to 36 degrees C range.

This is accomplished with the following cooling in each of these two machines:

power supply: a super-quite Nexus power supply; I used the Value 430, no longer available, never taxed beyond 80% capacity and usually running at 30% to 40% capacity; its single fan is extremely quiet
CPU cooler: a high-efficiency CPU cooler - one by Noctua and the other by Cooler Master - with two Noctua fans each
additional fans: two exhaust and one additional circulation fan, all by Noctua

Grand total: two power supplies and 10 additional fans in the two towers.

Noise level generated:

Ambient noise level with both systems powered OFF is 34 dB(A) at one meter (the two systems sit side-by-side).
Ambient noise level with one system powered ON is 36 dB(A) at one meter.
Ambient noise level with both systems powered ON is 37 dB(A) at one meter.
So, a combination of a super-quiet Nexus power supply and 4 or 5 additional fans by Noctua, including dual fans for the CPU cooler, should give you a pretty much inaudible system at your Listening Position and seating area.


----------



## AudiocRaver

Savjac said:


> No clue here really other than what I am told. I understand that the dac proper is not the sound portion of the stream and as such, it is the implementation of the dac in a circuit designed by any given manufacturer that will determine how the converter will sound. I have not been able to test that theory as all of my dacs have a different processor within so I cannot compare apples to apples so to speak.
> 
> I can say that several of us have listened and there are differences and to use Sonnies term, subtle differences to be sure


I would like to be able to listen for differences of the kind you are talking about. I have started a thread on the topic, HERE. Should make for a fun and educational discussion.


----------



## Sonnie

Jack... your post should have been in that other new thread that Wayne started... it would fit there much better. It is the kind of feedback he is asking for in that thread. :T

-------------------

The least expensive power supply that Nexus makes now is the Nexus NX-5000V1 for $100. Would it be worth the extra 30 bucks over the Cooler Master, which granted does have some unfavorable reviews.

I don't have a problem spending a little more for assured quietness. I also plan to dampen the case.

I found the Noctua NF-R8 80mm fans for $14.60 at Amazon. A couple of those will reduce case fan noise by about 5dB.

The Noctua CPU Cooler NH-U12P SE2 at Amazon for $68... appears to be the right one for the SilverStone case I am favoring, which has a 135mm CPU cooler limitation, thus eliminating coolers with a 140mm fan. This cooler uses a pair of 120mm fans. The Amazon description does not show it fits an LGA1150 motherboard, but the Noctua site does.

So... this is about another $130 to assure me of quietness... assuming the two fans on the CPU cooler, the two case fans and the power supply fan are enough to keep things cool. With no additional video card or sound card installed, I would think it would be plenty.


----------



## AudiocRaver

Sonnie said:


> The least expensive power supply that Nexus makes now is the Nexus NX-5000V1 for $100. Would it be worth the extra 30 bucks over the Cooler Master, which granted does have some unfavorable reviews.
> 
> I don't have a problem spending a little more for assured quietness. I also plan to dampen the case.


I would definitely go with a proven power supply, since it exhausts to the outside of your PC it especially should be as quiet as possible. A resource that has a lot of good info about quiet PCs is End PCNoise dot com (link to their power supply page), and they highly recommend the Nexus line of power supplies. I found the Nexus supplies to be easy to work with and trouble-free, a good quality look and feel about them. No harm in having a little extra power capacity - a 500W supply will certainly be plenty for your build.



> I found the Noctua NF-R8 80mm fans for $14.60 at Amazon. A couple of those will reduce case fan noise by about 5dB.
> 
> The Noctua CPU Cooler NH-U12P SE2 at Amazon for $68... appears to be the right one for the SilverStone case I am favoring, which has a 135mm CPU cooler limitation, thus eliminating coolers with a 140mm fan. This cooler uses a pair of 120mm fans. The Amazon description does not show it fits an LGA1150 motherboard, but the Noctua site does.
> 
> So... this is about another $130 to assure me of quietness... assuming the two fans on the CPU cooler, the two case fans and the power supply fan are enough to keep things cool. With no additional video card or sound card installed, I would think it would be plenty.


That sounds like thorough coverage to me, should be plenty of cooling. The extra cost for the super quiet fans is worth it in my book, perhaps some overkill but then you don't have to worry about it. I went the other way on my original builds, assuming noise wouldn't be a problem, and when it was, no amount of noise insulation or isolation could fix it and I had to replace all fans and power supply to get the result I wanted. If quiet operation is important to you, I highly recommend doing it right up front, and ultra-quiet cooling is the way to end most PC noise.

I love working with the Noctua coolers and fans. Everything about them says _quality._ The fans come with optional inline resistors for running them at lower speed. I never felt the need to do that. The CPU cooler fans and system exhaust fan run in "smart" mode, their speed is adjusted automatically as more cooling is needed. Your system workload should be fairly low and constant, so that strategy should work well to keep your system cool and quiet.

You might also consider the hard disk isolation kits (also at EndPCNoise.com) if you have a large, fast hard drive or two for data. Vibration and accessing noise are possible there, too. I have not done that with my builds, and sometimes when a hard drive gets busy I can hear it a little.


----------



## AudiocRaver

Another thing I did for convenience...

If your case will be lying down and hard drives will be standing up on their sides and screwed into place using standard 6-32 screws, you can get these 6-32 x 5/16 thumbscrews from Newegg and just screw them in from the top, don't worry about the bottom screws. These are longer than needed, I just used a spare hex nut as a spacer/"washer."

Now your hard disk is held by two thumbscrews on the top side. If you have to take it out, no need to even stand up the computer or remove the back cover to get to the other screws for the hard drive, no need even for a screwdriver, just remove the two thumbscrews and slide out the hard drive. Works great.:bigsmile:

If the unit was to be shipped or carried around a lot, the back side screws would be needed. For normal carrying around in the house, the hard drive is pressed into place and is not going to move around or put undue stress on those two thumbscrews.


----------



## Savjac

This is great, computer geeks are just as bad as audio geeks !!!
In reading this, and I love power as well, we have gone from a mild mannered music server to a Cray computer with enough fans and power to make the computer/case into a hover craft should the rains fall and the tides rise. This is some great stuff.


----------



## AudiocRaver

I readily admit to leaning toward overkill on the cooling side.:bigsmile::bigsmile:


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## prerich

Savjac said:


> This is great, computer geeks are just as bad as audio geeks !!! In reading this, and I love power as well, we have gone from a mild mannered music server to a Cray computer with enough fans and power to make the computer/case into a hover craft should the rains fall and the tides rise. This is some great stuff.


Told ya !!!!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## mojave

On the Corsair TX Series power supplies, the fan doesn't even run until at 35-40% system load. For music listening it will be completely silent. I just installed a TX650 in an HTPC.

I've been without case fans in my HTPC for 2 years. The video card and power supply both draw air through the case. With that said, I did just install some noctua fans this weekend and they are very quiet.



AudiocRaver said:


> Pardon my slow response to your generous invitation. I don't multitask like I used to could, have just decompressed from an intense few days with Sonnie's new speakers.
> 
> Absolutely! I will PM you directly to arrange a get-together. I will probably download and install jRiver MC first to get my feet wet with it for a couple of days, then have intelligent questions for you.
> 
> I am looking forward to it already!


No problem. I'll await your PM.


----------



## andy_c

Sonnie said:


> The Noctua CPU Cooler NH-U12P SE2 at Amazon for $68... appears to be the right one for the SilverStone case I am favoring, which has a 135mm CPU cooler limitation, thus eliminating coolers with a 140mm fan.


According to the *Noctua spec*, the height of that heatsink is 158mm, so it doesn't look like it will fit.


----------



## prerich

andy_c said:


> According to the Noctua spec, the height of that heatsink is 158mm, so it doesn't look like it will fit.


 http://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Master...B0080ATR2Y/ref=pd_cp_pc_0/179-7067130-4093028 or the http://www.amazon.com/Noctua-Low-Pr...B009VY1PMI/ref=pd_cp_pc_2/179-7067130-4093028 or the Scythe coolers are more what I lean to.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## andy_c

I've got the first one you posted, the Cooler Master GeminII M4, in my HTPC (Silverstone GD05 case). The DVD drive ends up right above the CPU, so there's a strict 70mm max height for the CPU cooler. The Cooler Master works great, is very quiet and reasonably priced too.


----------



## Sonnie

Yep... I was only thinking about the fan height at 120mm... and forgot about the rest of the cooler height, which will exceed the 135mm maximum.

It doesn't look like either of those other coolers that are linked will fit the LGA 1150 though.

I don't think I will have an issue with the Optical Drive in the Lascala case.


----------



## Sonnie

It looks like the NH-C14 would work, even with dual fans it is 130mm tall.

The NH-L12 would be even better at only 93mm tall with the second fan installed... 66mm without the second fan. It cost less too... $60 on Amazon.


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> Yep... I was only thinking about the fan height at 120mm... and forgot about the rest of the cooler height, which will exceed the 135mm maximum. It doesn't look like either of those other coolers that are linked will fit the LGA 1150 though. I don't think I will have an issue with the Optical Drive in the Lascala case.


 The NH-L9i fits sockets 1150, 1155, and 1156 

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## prerich

Sonnie said:


> Yep... I was only thinking about the fan height at 120mm... and forgot about the rest of the cooler height, which will exceed the 135mm maximum. It doesn't look like either of those other coolers that are linked will fit the LGA 1150 though. I don't think I will have an issue with the Optical Drive in the Lascala case.


 The cool master Gemini M4 also fits the 1150 http://www.coolermaster-usa.com/product.php?product_id=3091


Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Sonnie

Yeah... just read that in the specs, although I think I like the L12 better with two fans for only $12 more.


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## andy_c

Sonnie said:


> Yep... I was only thinking about the fan height at 120mm... and forgot about the rest of the cooler height, which will exceed the 135mm maximum.
> 
> It doesn't look like either of those other coolers that are linked will fit the LGA 1150 though.


GeminII M4: from the *Cooler Master website*:

Intel Socket:
LGA 2011 / 1366 / 1156 / 1155 / 1150 / 775

Edit: Oops, never mind!


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## Sonnie

I am thinking this is it here. The only thing is I will have to order the case from Newegg, as Amazon just sold out and I can't get it in 2 days like normal. It looks like Newegg has some kind of 2 day shipping I can trial for 30 days for free. So I should have everything by Thursday if I order it all tomorrow.

I will go with 2 x 4GB on the RAM. I highly doubt I will upgrade that anytime soon, so may as well take advantage of the dual channel. I think I missed the $20 discount on Newegg for the 1 8GB stick, so this works out a little less.

 
Silverstone Tek GD01B-R-USB3.0 Aluminum Front Panel/0.8mm SECC Body ATX Media Center/HTPC Case with 2X USB3.0 Front Ports Cases (Black) - Silverstone Tek - $146.61 


 
Gigabyte Intel H81 OP-AMP USB DAC-UP Port Audio Noise Guard ATX Motherboard GA-H81.Amp-UP - Gigabyte - $79.99 


 
Intel Core i3-4130 3.4 3 FCLGA 1150 Processor BX80646I34130 - Intel - $124.99 


 
Samsung Electronics 840 Pro Series 2.5-Inch 256 GB SATA 6GB/s Solid State Drive MZ-7PD256BW - Samsung - $199.99 


 
Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3 1600 MHz (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory (CML8GX3M2A1600C9) - Corsair - $76.99 


 
Nexus NX-5000V1 - Nexus - $99.95 


 
Noctua NH-L12 Low-profile Quiet CPU Cooler with 120/90mm Dual PWM Fan - Axpertec, Inc. - $59.99 


 
Noctua NF-R8 80mm Fan (31 CFM) - Noctua - $14.60 x 2


 
Asus 24x DVD-RW Serial-ATA Internal OEM Optical Drive DRW-24B1ST (Black) - Asus - $21.95 



 
LapGear 45492 Deluxe Computer LapDesk - Creative Essentials, LLC dba Lap Desk - $25.14 


 
Logitech 910-002974 M325 Wireless Mouse for Web Scrolling - Black - Logitech - $17.25 


 
Logitech Wireless Keyboard K360 - Glossy Black - Logitech - $22.49 



*Total $915.54*


I already have an unused W7 Pro 64-bit.

What am I missing...


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## AudiocRaver

Looks like you are about ready to roll. Not a "cheap" PC, but a lot of bang for the buck, one you should be able to fly with for many years to come.

Built by someone else commercially, that level of capability would probably cost you $1500 to $2000, maybe more.


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## andy_c

Sonnie said:


> What am I missing...
> 
> Paste? Cables?


Heat sink grease should be provided with your CPU cooler. You'll probably get two SATA data cables with the mobo, and SATA power cables with the PSU, so you should be good for your two SATA devices.

Do you have an anti-static wrist strap with alligator clip? It's not absolutely necessary, but is best when doing things like putting the CPU into its socket and working with the motherboard once it's been removed from its anti-static bag.


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## Sonnie

Yep... got the wrist strap. This will make 7-8 I have built in the last 4-5 years.

This is the first time I have done a CPU cooler... what is the grease all about?


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## prerich

Sonnie said:


> Yep... got the wrist strap. This will make 7-8 I have built in the last 4-5 years. This is the first time I have done a CPU cooler... what is the grease all about?


Helps with heat transfer from the processor to the cooler. I useArtic silver myself but the grease that comes with the processor is fine.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## AudiocRaver

Noctua supplies their own brand of conductive paste, which has excellent specs, about the same heat conductance as Arctic Silver.


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## andy_c

Sonnie said:


> This is the first time I have done a CPU cooler... what is the grease all about?


If you were to greatly magnify the surfaces of the CPU and the area of the heat sink that contacts it, these surfaces would appear rough, with microscopic peaks and valleys. When these surfaces contact each other, the effective contact area will be less than the nominal area because of the "micro-voids" at the interface. The heat sink compound fills in these voids at the interface, improving heat transfer.

The instructions for the Arctic Silver compounds recommend using a lint-free cloth to spread the compound, and suggest a coffee filter for this purpose. That's what I always use. They caution against using bare fingers on either the CPU or heat sink contact surfaces to spread the compound, or touch it at all, because skin oils can contaminate the interface and degrade thermal performance.

BTW, be sure to plug your case fans into the mobo's system fan connectors so they can be servo-controlled by the sensed temperature. If you use the supplied Silverstone fan adapter cable to connect them all to the 12 Volts from the PSU, they will always run at full speed and likely be loud.


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## Sonnie

I appreciate all the info... you guys have all be super helpful.

So grease = paste in the computer world? I thought this was two different things, no?


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## andy_c

Sonnie said:


> So grease = paste in the computer world? I thought this was two different things, no?


There are many different compounds used, and the naming is less precise than it could be. *This article* has more information.


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## mojave

Why aren't you getting a Blu-ray drive? You might want to listen to some Blu-ray concerts.


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## RTS100x5

mojave said:


> Why aren't you getting a Blu-ray drive? You might want to listen to some Blu-ray concerts.


+1 mainly bc bluray drives are the same $$ anyways


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## Sonnie

I can use my OPPO for those.

A BD drive for $22?


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## mojave

I think the cheapest Blu-ray drive is around $50. With JRiver you also need a decryption program like anyDVD HD which costs around $120 for a lifetime license. 

Whether you get one depends on how you want to listen and access your music. With a Blu-ray drive you can rip the individual songs on a concert Blu-ray to multi-channel or stereo FLAC for easy playback in a playlist, lossless streaming to another computer, or streaming/syncing to a handheld device.


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## AudiocRaver

Good point, that allows BluRay concert tracks to become part of your server library.

How about hybrid sacd, like that Pink Floyd _Wish You Were Here_ we listened to? Is there a drive that can handle it, too?


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## Sonnie

You guys are trying to spend too much of my money. Sticking with CD only for now. If I want to extract a Blu-ray, then I will do so on my laptop and copy it to the music server.


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## Savjac

AudiocRaver said:


> Good point, that allows BluRay concert tracks to become part of your server library.
> 
> How about hybrid sacd, like that Pink Floyd _Wish You Were Here_ we listened to? Is there a drive that can handle it, too?


Yup, the Oppo. It can also play the BR version of Wish you Were here in the immersion set. Oops, more money that does not need to be spent. :nono:


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## Savjac

Here ya go, cheap, easy, quiet, fast and trouble free....


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## Sonnie

Another change... changed cases, but not by much. Mainly because I did not want to wait on the Lascala case from Newegg... so for about $17 more I think I will go with the Grandia GD01. I also has the extra fifty-eleven in one card reader, not that I need it. It also has anti-vibration drive mounts, not that I need those either.

 
Silverstone Tek GD01B-R-USB3.0 Aluminum Front Panel/0.8mm SECC Body ATX Media Center/HTPC Case with 2X USB3.0 Front Ports Cases (Black) - Silverstone Tek - $146.61 


 
Gigabyte Intel H81 OP-AMP USB DAC-UP Port Audio Noise Guard ATX Motherboard GA-H81.Amp-UP - Gigabyte - $79.99 


 
Intel Core i3-4130 3.4 3 FCLGA 1150 Processor BX80646I34130 - Intel - $124.99 


 
Samsung Electronics 840 Pro Series 2.5-Inch 256 GB SATA 6GB/s Solid State Drive MZ-7PD256BW - Samsung - $199.99 


 
Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3 1600 MHz (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory (CML8GX3M2A1600C9) - Corsair - $76.99 


 
Nexus NX-5000V1 - Nexus - $99.95 


 
Noctua NH-L12 Low-profile Quiet CPU Cooler with 120/90mm Dual PWM Fan - Axpertec, Inc. - $59.99 


 
Noctua NF-R8 80mm Fan (31 CFM) - Noctua - $14.60 x 2


 
Asus 24x DVD-RW Serial-ATA Internal OEM Optical Drive DRW-24B1ST (Black) - Asus - $21.95 



 
LapGear 45492 Deluxe Computer LapDesk - Creative Essentials, LLC dba Lap Desk - $25.14 


 
Logitech 910-002974 M325 Wireless Mouse for Web Scrolling - Black - Logitech - $17.25 


 
Logitech Wireless Keyboard K360 - Glossy Black - Logitech - $22.49 



*Total $915.54*


I already have an unused W7 Pro 64-bit.


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## Sonnie

It is ordered... so no changes allowed.

That CPU is like gold... I think the price changed on it 3-4 times since it was in my basket.


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## Savjac

Congratulations young man, I sure it will rock.


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## AudiocRaver

You saw the Silverstone case has a 3 to 4 week ship date from Amazon? You have another source?


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## Sonnie

I got the last one in stock... which is why is shows that delivery status now. 

In my order status it is showing guaranteed delivery by Friday 1/24. It appears right, since I ordered so late tonight, it was like ordering tomorrow (actually it is tomorrow right now here). Prime shipping - two days... Wednesday to Friday. It tells me guaranteed delivery by Friday for everything I ordered. Although I am not sure I will get to start on it this weekend, but I will have it for next week anyway.


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## Sevenfeet

Savjac said:


> Here ya go, cheap, easy, quiet, fast and trouble free....


I'm a big fan of the Mac Mini in this application....fast, quiet and small. The only issue is that the current model is long in the tooth (Ivy Bridge) and rumor has it that it will be replaced next month by a Haswell-based model.

But all this is moot since it seems that Sonnie has decided to build a PC instead. I'm looking forward to seeing how that works out.


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## Savjac

I do believe Sonnie's server will be awesome and one powerful beastie for what the future may bring. 

I use both PC and Mac and I really am not sure there is a sound difference when using JRiver in either machine, but I can say the Mac is silent and does not hang up at all. Whew, love it. 

It is quite expensive to upgrade however, which really makes the PC a better buy for this type of thing. I would be willing to bet Sonnie will be burning movies to the HD within 6 months though.


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## AudiocRaver

Savjac said:


> I would be willing to bet Sonnie will be burning movies to the HD within 6 months though.


I think that usage patterns are the big difference. A movie session is all the way through a movie and maybe never again, or not for a year or two. A music session can go anywhere on a whim, instant access to all tracks is a key to enjoying the session.


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## Savjac

Yes Sir this is true and this is why I made the comment.
Personally I would never have considered burning movies to computer disc, after all the original is right there in the shelf, however, having it on the server allows me to view it anywhere in the house on any connected computer or television. No having to grab the disc, put it in a machine on the forty - leventh floor of the mansion and then when done putting it back and so on, not to mention rewinding the silly DVD so the next person does not have to.

Maybe it is lazy, but I guess that is why we have music servers, its easier to get a disc, a song, an artist, a genre anything at the push of a button or two. Brilliant I think.


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## RTS100x5

mojave said:


> I think the cheapest Blu-ray drive is around $50. With JRiver you also need a decryption program like anyDVD HD which costs around $120 for a lifetime license.
> 
> Whether you get one depends on how you want to listen and access your music. With a Blu-ray drive you can rip the individual songs on a concert Blu-ray to multi-channel or stereo FLAC for easy playback in a playlist, lossless streaming to another computer, or streaming/syncing to a handheld device.


There are free alternatives to decryption but obviously Sonnies music server is not going in that direction....

Cant wait to hear your results of that motherboard / audio setup Sonnie :bigsmile:


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## AudiocRaver

Savjac said:


> Maybe it is lazy, but I guess that is why we have music servers, its easier to get a disc, a song, an artist, a genre anything at the push of a button or two. Brilliant I think.


Ah, the _lazy_ argument. That one I can relate to.:T


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## ajinfla

AudiocRaver said:


> Ah, the _lazy_ argument. That one I can relate to.:T


Ya, which is why I'm not quite racing to add a TT back into my system (I probably will eventually).
I have to _get up_...and do what? 

cheers


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## Sonnie

I have started my Cedar Creek Music Server thread.

Thanks to everyone who pitched in here and gave me recommendations and advice. It was very valuable and while I may could have done it without you, I am sure I would have messed up somewhere. So... thank you very much!


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## darshin

Setting up a music server is a crazy thing and i went through the research and permutations/combinations myself. 

There's a lot of ready solutions available but the one that I have opted for is Vortexbox + SuperSync.

Vortexbox allowed me to put together a music server in almost free cost and am using SuperSync as an iTunes server in Vortexbox.

So basically, all my macs & PCs in the network connect to it and I have my master iTunes library on the Vortexbox and its behaving as my music server. Best, i can connect remotely too  

Last week I was at my dad's place and i connected and downloaded by library music from there. So literally a cloud for me and a server in true sense.

The cost I had to pay for the SuperSync on Vortexbox was nothing. For the SuperSync licenses for my Mac and Windows, its as cheap as having a few beers  ... 

Loving this program. 

Setting up Vortexbox is free and easy too. Didnt feel much of a task there, its a good solution.

So all you pay for is the size of HDDs you need, and $30 for SuperSync!!!


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## 3dbinCanada

Maybe I'm over simplifying this... Why not just buy a WD TV Live Plus and a "Cloud Hard Drive" ( hard drive with a network attachment ) .


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