# Matching Speakers



## jazzscreamer (Apr 2, 2009)

How important is it to match your speakers in your HT. I'm mainly concerned with my front end. I have two Ascendant audio Arbiter speakers (MTM) and a Cynosure center channel (3.5 line array build from PE). My Pioneer Receiver does it's MCACC to match levels, distance, EQ and such. What benefits would I get from building a matching center channel if any. Thanks!!!


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
MCACC definitely has the potential to make the differences less conspicuous. It definitely is helpful to have a Center Channel that is as similar as possible to your Mains. However, if you are pleased with how it sounds, that really is all that matters. 

While the goal is to have identical Speakers for your Front Stage, in many cases that is just not possible. especially when using Floorstanders. However, to have the same High Frequency Transducer makes for more seamless panning.

The matching Center Channel to my Mains uses a Soft Dome Tweeter, Electrostatic Panel, and 6.5" Woofers which is definitely a departure from my Mains which are Electrostatic until 400 Hz and then transition to an 8" Woofer. Martin Logan has been using a Center Channel Design like this for years. While the Logos, which was the first Martin Logan CC, did not use a Tweeter. All Models since have.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jazzscreamer (Apr 2, 2009)

I guess I'm trying to see if there will be a difference without spending the money. I do like the way things sound, but I wonder if it could be better with it matching. Thanks


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I do think that the panning or Surround Steering would be more seamless by using a matching CC. However, it is hard to quantify how much better it would truly be.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jliedeka (May 27, 2008)

The ideal is to have at least the front three speakers to be timbre matched. The reality is that is rarely possible. A center that uses the same drivers as the mains will have a different timbre due to the horizontal layout.

If your system sounds good to you, I wouldn't worry about it. The EQ also may be helping.

Jim


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## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I do think that the panning or Surround Steering would be more seamless by using a matching CC. However, it is hard to quantify how much better it would truly be.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I've always thought that -- but then I've never found myself thinking about the sound when something pans across the screen...

I have Polks for my LCR and they're not timbre matched - and I can hear subtle differences when not EQd.. 

I think some DD/DTS demos have some content where the audio pans that might be a helpful test.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I think it is most important to have the front stage match and if possible the surrounds but in the real world alot of times it's simply not possible. When watching surround content most of the action comes from the front and some out of the rears (depending on the movie), but when say a sound that is spanning around the room you may notice a subtle differance if you have golden ears. For the most part i don't think most folks could tell a differance, IMO.:T


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## aceinc (Oct 24, 2006)

No worries mon, unless you use one or more truly bad speakers, or have a golden ear, my opinion is that it does not matter. I have 20+ year old KEF 105.4's which would be fairly impossible to match. 

When I built a CC, I purchased enough drivers to build 4 additional speakers using the same drivers. I never built them because I'm happy with what I have. I may still build the speakers, to entertain myself, not because I need to.

BTW I too have a Pioneer Elite with MCCAC, but I imagine most auto EQ systems will perform well.

Paul


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

My opinion... very important to match your speakers. Especially your LCR speakers. Many folks feel that matching surrounds are less important and I agree to a certain extent. Personally I match all of my speakers, at least as far as main compliment of drivers.


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## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

nova said:


> My opinion... very important to match your speakers. Especially your LCR speakers. Many folks feel that matching surrounds are less important and I agree to a certain extent. Personally I match all of my speakers, at least as far as main compliment of drivers.


Match being identical? or just timbre match?

I think some specs that I've read specify "identical" speakers for LCR.


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

If it sounds good to you like it is . that's what matters the most. My dedicated HT has all matched speakers except for one sub , and my brother 's dedicated HT uses quality, but mis matched speakers throughout . I have listened to both many times and his sounds just good as mine .Nothing stands out as missing , or different or just wrong. just my .02


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

I am going to have to disagree with many here. I think it is VERY important to at least timbre match all off your speakers in your system, including the surrounds. As a audio and re-recording mixer, all channels are equal to me. We are no longer in the pro logic days where the surrounds are used as an extension of the front channels. With 5.1, the surrounds play as important a role in a mix as the front three do. It is very distracting when an effect which is supposed to smoothly move from one channel to the next, jumps to each channel. That is what happens when the frequency response, and the tonal character of each channel is different. This is especially distracting across the frontal sound stage, where both our eyes and ears are directed towards, and where most of the action is. 

The ideal setup will have matching speakers and power at all points of a 5.1 or 7.1 setup. If that is not achievable, then they should definitely be timbre matched. This is crucial for HT, but even moreso for multichannel music.


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## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

Sir Terrence said:


> I am going to have to disagree with many here. I think it is VERY important to at least timbre match all off your speakers in your system, including the surrounds. As a audio and re-recording mixer, all channels are equal to me. We are no longer in the pro logic days where the surrounds are used as an extension of the front channels. With 5.1, the surrounds play as important a role in a mix as the front three do.


So, since you have much more experience professionally with the topic than the average person..... Can you think of any good examples of content that has pans and scenes where perhaps a mismatch might be more apparent? Most movies that I can think of seem to be rather directional?

I'm just curious if the transitions/pans when I watch a movie with my setup are pretty seamless... or if I'm just unaware because I don't really know what I'm listening for?

Not sure if my post makes sense. I'm just trying to "hear" what you're talking about - since I think I've payed little attention in the past.


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

Zeitgeist said:


> So, since you have much more experience professionally with the topic than the average person..... Can you think of any good examples of content that has pans and scenes where perhaps a mismatch might be more apparent? Most movies that I can think of seem to be rather directional?
> 
> I'm just curious if the transitions/pans when I watch a movie with my setup are pretty seamless... or if I'm just unaware because I don't really know what I'm listening for?
> 
> Not sure if my post makes sense. I'm just trying to "hear" what you're talking about - since I think I've payed little attention in the past.


Listen to most of the Pixar movies. Quite a few of them have dialog panned in each of the front channels(and in between them as well) based on their position on screen. If the dialog changes as it is panned in each channel(and between them), and you cannot perceive a sonic bubble all around you, you are hearing the effects of a mismatched set of speakers. With identically match speakers, you should be placed within a enveloping bubble, with discrete sonic images placed within it. If the speakers are mismatched, dialog will jump between channels, there will be no perceived accurate placement of the dialog between the speakers, and the sound stage will be much more front focused than with a identical set up. 

Listen to true 5.1 SACD or high resolution Bluray titles. They utilize the left/right, and center channels for musical information. If you have a timbre match, or identical speakers on each channel, instruments across the front channels(and the space in the rear channels) will have identical space, delineation within the sound stage, and identical tonal qualities 360 degrees around the head. With a mismatched speaker system, you will hear a shift in timbre, sound stage qualities, and the resolution between the individual channels where the speakers are not identical in sonic qualities. 

The movie "9" has an excellent mix that demonstrates the benefits of identical timbre, and or speakers at each channel. Both Transformer movies do as well. Divertimenti" from Trondheim Solistene multichannel bluray music disc is a perfect example to demonstrate the benefits of timbre matched or identical speaker on each channel. There are so many examples of good test disc, that I cannot remember them all.


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## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

Sir Terrence - Thank you so much!

That was such a well written response - it should practically be a sticky..

I have a few Pixar movies - I'll have to listen closely. I've read about 9 - I'm almost tempted to get it just for the audio. I don't have a SACD player... but should keep an eye out for some good blu-ray multichannel music.

I know my fronts are not timbre matched with my surrounds - so I'm curious what my experiences will be.. I need to upgrade all my speakers..

Don't mean to get off topic from the original post - just looking forward to getting some first hand experience with the topic..


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

Zeitgeist said:


> Match being identical? or just timbre match?
> 
> I think some specs that I've read specify "identical" speakers for LCR.


Ideally, yes, identical match. Of course we all live in the real world and for most of us it is not possible. Next best thing is to timbre match all speakers. Same manufacturer, same line, same drivers...


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## Dual-500 (Aug 1, 2010)

jliedeka said:


> The ideal is to have at least the front three speakers to be timbre matched. The reality is that is rarely possible. A center that uses the same drivers as the mains will have a different timbre due to the horizontal layout.
> 
> If your system sounds good to you, I wouldn't worry about it. The EQ also may be helping.
> 
> Jim


All good points. I discovered the phenomenon you described recently. I have made some changes in my system recently - changed out an old school active setup to DSC's (Digital System Controllers - DBX DriveRack's) and tuned it up. I was looking to simplify the setup and gain some rack space by eliminating components - compressor/limiters and parametric eq's.

So, once done the system now sports 3 DBX DriveRacks, two used in tandem for 4-way stereo L&R mains and one used for a tri-amped center.

The L&R mains are 2 x JBL 2118 8's, JBL 2425 1" compression driver with 2470 phenolic diaphragm, McCauley 416 Horn/Lens, and are topped off with a JBL 2404 HF driver. The center uses the identical driver compliment with the exception of the midrange compression driver being a JBL 2410 with 2470 phenolic diaphragm and the horn is a larger McCauley 455 horn/lens. The orientation of the 8's is also on the horizontal plane as opposed to the vertical alignment used on the L&R mains. Same amplification and DBX DriveRack.

The center has the following differences as compared with the L&R mains: 1) Larger horn, 2) Midrange driver orientation, 3) Single point source as opposed to dual point L&R mains, 4) Center is flying over the top of the LCD screen whereas the L&R are out to the sides of the LCD TV. 

I listed the system hardware receipe for reference. System was aligned (focus set) using a laser level to the listening point for both pan and tilt on mains and center.

Using a Samson D-1500 1/3 Octave RTA to tune the thing. The 5ch balance is set using a Simpson model 885 sound level meter. I set the mic just in front of the sofa at the rear of the room, the point I sit watching which is on the center axis of the system. The system balance is also set from the same reference point using the Simpson 885.

The DBX DriveRacks have built-in parametric EQ plus 28 band graphic eq capability. The system is basically high end gear with lots of control capability and essentially matched down to splitting hairs. Crossover point are the same - 1.25khz & 5.6khz. THe only difference there is the L&R mains have a JBL 2245 18" sub and additional crossover point of 200hz. But, for the purpose of this discussion I don't think it's a factor.

Tuning it up is pretty easy with the DriveRacks and doesn't take much eq correction for the L&R mains. Same holds true for the center with a few more points of eq tweaking.

Then, balance with the noise generator in the AV receiver and Simpson 885 SLM. The first thing I noticed with the noise generator when going from LF to center, to RF, to rears is the Timbre difference in the center channel. I used the same analyzer to tune it, basically tuned to flat and it sounds different.

Watched a few movies through it and it just didn't sound right. So, I brought the mid horn gain up and HF gain up and it sounded better. I reset the crossover gain settings on the mid and high drivers to match the setting on the L&R mains. Then a week or later, reconneced the RTA and pinked the system out again. There is a DBX 231 1/3 octave on the rears I didn't mention.

Anyway, when tuning the center -vs- L&R mains it takes a different approach and reacts a little differently than the L&R mains. The final curve needs to be different to Timbre Match with the L&R mains.

I would have never guess that to be the case. One would think, equal settings on an RTA would yield the same sound, but it does not. At least on my setup in my room it doesn't. I cannot Timbre match the center with the L&R using an RTA only.

I even tried moving the mic closed to the center, to get a near field measurement to tune it. I can tune the L&R mains with the RTA and leave it alone - no additional tweaking to sound good. That's for HT or music. Many times that's not the case with RTA setup and tuning. Sometimes, the RTA brings it close and a little fine tuning is required to system brings it home. The mids and highs have to be increased on the center channel to match things up.

This setup, the L&R mains can be tuned with only the RTA and they sound great - but the center, which is essentially identical to the L&R mains does not behave the same.

I hope this makes sense guys!


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