# Front height speakers?



## tcarcio

I was sitting here wondering if I should change my system from a traditional 7.1 to a 7.1 useing the front hieght speakers since I now have a reciever with that capability. I haven't seen much talk about people doing this and what they thought about it so I figured I would ask if some of you have opinions on doing this. I don't have a really big room and was thinking it might be more impactfull in a small room to go with the hieghts as apposed to the normal 7.1 setup. Any thoughts or experience with this would be appreciated. Thanks, and Merry Christmas.


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## bambino

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*

I haven't got experiance with using height or width surrounds but also have been considering doing the same thing. My plan however is to run full 7.1 and include the height and width channels as i'm going to purchase the new Marantz Pro which includes those extra channels. I'm not quite sure though if it's possible to run the full 11.1 all at the same time:dontknow:. Thats something i'll have to look into.

I have read good things about using the width channels on an AVR in one of the reviews i have read, the reviewer really seemed to like the experiance. 

Hope that helps abit.:T


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## Fastslappy

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*

I use my front height's as the rear surrounds don't add much to the sound mix at all IMO on most movies & not at all in 5.1 audio from broadcasts 
They really have added to my front soundstage , to the point that I'd never go back :sn:


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## tcarcio

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*



bambino said:


> I haven't got experiance with using height or width surrounds but also have been considering doing the same thing. My plan however is to run full 7.1 and include the height and width channels as i'm going to purchase the new Marantz Pro which includes those extra channels. I'm not quite sure though if it's possible to run the full 11.1 all at the same time:dontknow:. Thats something i'll have to look into.
> 
> I have read good things about using the width channels on an AVR in one of the reviews i have read, the reviewer really seemed to like the experiance.
> 
> Hope that helps abit.:T


Which Marantz are you looking at?


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## tcarcio

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*



Fastslappy said:


> I use my front height's as the rear surrounds don't add much to the sound mix at all IMO on most movies & not at all in 5.1 audio from broadcasts
> They really have added to my front soundstage , to the point that I'd never go back :sn:


How do they add to the front soundstage if you are useing them as rear surrounds?


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## Fastslappy

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*



tcarcio said:


> How do they add to the front soundstage if you are useing them as rear surrounds?


i meant that I moved the rear surrounds to use as the front heights


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## tcarcio

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*



Fastslappy said:


> i meant that I moved the rear surrounds to use as the front heights


Oh, I misunderstood. So you didn't notice more involvlment in the movie like when a plane flies overhead or something similar then in std 7.1 because that is what I thought they were supposed to work better for?


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## Prof.

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*

I looked into this awhile ago as well, but with my AVR you can have either side surrounds or front height speakers..but not both, so I gave it a miss..


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## Fastslappy

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*

not to a point where it was a real impact , as having the rear surrounds directly behind your ears one doesn't pick them up very well as you would on the L/R surrounds . The real impact to me ,was with highs adding to the front sound stage ( my room will not handle the wides as the left & rights are in the corners now ! toed in also )
Now with those who have an A/V that will do 11.1 & 9.1 then this is all a moot point but to us who have 7.1 A/V's I prefer that sound that the high's & / 0r wide's provide over what little sound actually comes outta the rear surrounds in a 7.1 set-up ( I found that unless it's an 7.1 audio track there was little if any use of the rear surrounds ) , plus the added fact that how many movies are there that actually have a 7.1 audio track


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## bambino

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*



tcarcio said:


> Which Marantz are you looking at?


The AV7005


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## tcarcio

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*



Fastslappy said:


> not to a point where it was a real impact , as having the rear surrounds directly behind your ears one doesn't pick them up very well as you would on the L/R surrounds . The real impact to me ,was with highs adding to the front sound stage ( my room will not handle the wides as the left & rights are in the corners now ! toed in also )
> Now with those who have an A/V that will do 11.1 & 9.1 then this is all a moot point but to us who have 7.1 A/V's I prefer that sound that the high's & / 0r wide's provide over what little sound actually comes outta the rear surrounds in a 7.1 set-up ( I found that unless it's an 7.1 audio track there was little if any use of the rear surrounds ) , plus the added fact that how many movies are there that actually have a 7.1 audio track


That is what I was thinking because I am not overly impressed with the rear surrounds either or with the amount of material available to use them. I should give the heights a try and see for myself. Thanks. Anyone else useing the front heights?


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## BrianAbington

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*

This is one of those functions I have read enough about that I plan to buy even without experiencing it before hand.
I like the concept and if the speakers are a similar voicing and are positioned properly I think it will do wonders for the sound stage. 

Sound always seems to lead the way in new theater technology. We had great digital sound for several years and scratchy film being run through a projector that put out about 400 lumens. 

Now that almost every theater has some sort of digital projection Sound needs to take a step ahead to keep people coming to experience something better than they have at home.

I think that the next thing for theater sound that will carry over to homes will be 15.1 surround.

Sub Sub
Left Height Right Height
Left Width Left Center Right Right Width


FL side surround FR Side Surround


 L overhead R overhead


L Side Surround R Side Surround




L Rear Surround R Rear Surround



This would really give you a sound field that sounds like a helicopter flying around you...or a jet flying in from behind.


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## tcarcio

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*

I would need a bigger room. :unbelievable::


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## bambino

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*



tcarcio said:


> I would need a bigger room. :unbelievable::


:yikes: That would be awesome to have a room big enough for all those speakers.:sn:


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## Sir Terrence

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*

I attended a demo of PL IIz at Dolby labs, and I just was not convinced that it really serves the soundtrack well. 
It was gimmicky, not effective with all material, and some times added a unnatural artifacts to the mix. 

I am somewhat of a purist, and anything that changes the original intent is a distortion to me. 

IMO the better implementation of a height channel is when it is directly overhead of the listening position. Having heard an actual demo of this implementation has convinced me that this is the next channel we should add to HT systems.


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## Sir Terrence

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*



SQCherokee said:


> This is one of those functions I have read enough about that I plan to buy even without experiencing it before hand.
> I like the concept and if the speakers are a similar voicing and are positioned properly I think it will do wonders for the sound stage.
> 
> Sound always seems to lead the way in new theater technology. We had great digital sound for several years and scratchy film being run through a projector that put out about 400 lumens.
> 
> Now that almost every theater has some sort of digital projection Sound needs to take a step ahead to keep people coming to experience something better than they have at home.
> 
> I think that the next thing for theater sound that will carry over to homes will be 15.1 surround.
> 
> Sub Sub
> Left Height Right Height
> Left Width Left Center Right Right Width
> 
> 
> FL side surround FR Side Surround
> 
> 
> L overhead R overhead
> 
> 
> L Side Surround R Side Surround
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L Rear Surround R Rear Surround
> 
> 
> 
> This would really give you a sound field that sounds like a helicopter flying around you...or a jet flying in from behind.


Iosono sound is far better than 15.1. The directional capabilities of this system far outstrip what can be done with 15.1. Having had the opportunity of seeing a demo of Tron Legacy in Iosono sound at the Mann Chinese theater was one of the best theater experiences I have ever had. 15.1 could never touch that!


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## nholmes1

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*

FYI Bambino the AV7005 will not run all 11.X speakers at the same time, its an either or situation and that is the same for the SR7005. So 7.X with rear surrounds, or 5.X with front/width. It just allows for the connections to all be made but will only run 7.X at a time.


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## Tufelhundin

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*

Do the front heights need to be voice matched like the FL /C / FR ? I am about to make my system a 7.2 for I have 4 floor standers and was thinking about getting the SVS SSS for side surrounds.....but this thread has intrigued me. I still may go for that setup and add front heights....what type of speakers are required for this position...small direct firing?


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## Fastslappy

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*

I use my 4 big boys (CornScala's) as left/right then surrounds left / right & have custom CS-1's as my heights
thou not "truly" voiced matched with CornScala's they do compliment the soundstage as the CS-1 is a 2 way & the Cornscala is a three way 
all having horn loaded drivers 
having the bigger surrounds really makes a big difference in the "Newer" movies as the sound editing is starting to use the surrounds much more than in the past
Even when watching the cable shows like "Burn Notice" the surrounds come into play almost all the time 
This last season shows on broadcast IE:"CSI Las Vegas" same thing the surrounds are doing the heavy lifting as much as the Left & Right's 
Adding the heights &/0r wides expands the soundstage to quite a pleasant effect


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## Fastslappy

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*



Sir Terrence said:


> I attended a demo of PL IIz at Dolby labs, and I just was not convinced that it really serves the soundtrack well.
> It was gimmicky, not effective with all material, and some times added a unnatural artifacts to the mix.
> I am somewhat of a purist, and anything that changes the original intent is a distortion to me.


 I agree fully with Sir Terrence on this :clap: ; I am one who wants to hear what the sound editor puts forth in his original intent of what the sound track really is , not a matrix of a processed signal


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## Tufelhundin

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*

I just haven't been that impressed with my RS450's as side surrounds which is why I was thinking of moving them in the back surround position. Maybe I wasn't setting them up properly...I don't know. 

I may get a pair SVS SBS for front heights and the SVS SSS for side surrounds and give that a try.


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## Fastslappy

*Re: Front hieght speakers?*



Tufelhundin said:


> I just haven't been that impressed with my RS450's as side surrounds which is why I was thinking of moving them in the back surround position. Maybe I wasn't setting them up properly...I don't know.
> 
> I may get a pair SVS SBS for front heights and the SVS SSS for side surrounds and give that a try.


I feel you will be more than happy with that set-up :T


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## tcarcio

Great info guy's. I think in a perfect world you would want speakers that match but with surrounds I don't think it is as crucial as with the fronts. In my case it would be impossible anyway as my mains are too big. From what I am hearing it really does sound more gimmicky then being an improvement.


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## Tufelhundin

I have heard pretty good things about height. Mainly when things flying over and rain and such. But the way it seems I may end up with a 9.2 and I had no intentions of doing it....sooooo. First thing I have to work on are room treatments then I can get busy on speakers.

I hope this thread keeps chugg'n along for I'm very interested in this height business.


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## tcarcio

I run Cambridge s300 bipoles for my surrounds now and I would imagine you would want monopole or direct radiators for the heights. I have this coming week off so I think I might be trying it out and see for myself.


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## ojojunkie

got a question for this height surrounds that I keep hearing from my friends. Is it possible only to those AVR/Preamp equip with this option? how about those 7.1 system and the Sr back not assignable, can they be use for this purpose?..:scratch: onder:


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## tcarcio

Your reciever has to be equiped with Dolby PLIIz in order to use the new surrounds. Rear surrounds are not the same thing. http://www.dolby.com/consumer/understand/playback/dolby-pro-logic-iiz.html


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## Fastslappy

tcarcio said:


> Your receiver has to be equipped with Dolby PLIIz in order to use the new surrounds. Rear surrounds are not the same thing. http://www.dolby.com/consumer/understand/playback/dolby-pro-logic-iiz.html


Mine works the heights L/R's with the THX cenima heights setting & it sounds way better than Dolby PLIIz heights by a long shot 
I also get the L/R heights active in NEO 6 DSX ,TV logic , all channel stereo , full mono ,PLIIz Movie DSX, PLIIz Height
both my Onkyo TX-SR707 & TX-NR807 will do this as both systems are 7.2 with no rear surrounds just the side surrounds


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## tcarcio

Fastslappy said:


> Mine works the heights L/R's with the THX cenima heights setting & it sounds way better than Dolby PLIIz heights by a long shot


What makes you say that?


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## caliberconst.

While I have no experience with the dolby height speakers I have used Yamaha's version of the heights. Now I had the room to pull off a 7.1 setup perfectly, but found that the surround backs never saw much action. So I tried out the height's, and I must say I was impressed. If you watch allot of sports the heights are a must IMO, during a football game when the camera is on the field you can hear the crowd up in the stands with the heights. In movies when it is raining they work really well. I think the best thing you can do is set it up and try it out for yourself. I didn't find it to be gimmicky my self, and liked the results it yielded over the surround backs.


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## Fastslappy

tcarcio said:


> What makes you say that?


 detail, separation, clarity,sense of a depth in the soundstage which were not present in Dolby PLIIz heights


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## SteveCallas

> Now I had the room to pull off a 7.1 setup perfectly, but found that the surround backs never saw much action


:scratch:

If you are using Dolby Pro Logic IIx layered on top of DD or DTS, the rear surrounds will be seeing a lot of action, virtually the same amount of action as the surrounds. When you layer it over DD or DTS, PLIIx should default to Movie mode. I get a noticable increase in my surround field with the rears.

That said, I am very interested in trying out front height channels as well, as I'm sure it will expand the front sound stage quite a bit. My next receiver will need to handle 9.1 - I'm eye balling the Yamaha RX-A2000/3000.


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## TypeA

fastslappy said:


> Mine works the heights L/R's with the THX cenima heights setting & it sounds way better than Dolby PLIIz heights by a long shot
> I also get the L/R heights active in NEO 6 DSX ,TV logic , all channel stereo , full mono ,PLIIz Movie DSX, PLIIz Height
> both my Onkyo TX-SR707 & TX-NR807 will do this as both systems are 7.2 with no rear surrounds just the side surrounds


Interesting read. Yesterday I changed configuration from two each for the left and right to one each for the left and right plus heights. Still experimenting with listening modes to get the most out of the effect, so far the heights were silent in PLIIz...


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## tcarcio

Fastslappy said:


> detail, separation, clarity,sense of a depth in the soundstage which were not present in Dolby PLIIz heights


So did you have both formats in one reciever with the same set up and just would switch between both or was it with two different set ups? I ask because it is interesting that there would be that big of a difference.


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## Fastslappy

tcarcio said:


> So did you have both formats in one reciever with the same set up and just would switch between both or was it with two different set ups? I ask because it is interesting that there would be that big of a difference.


 I have both formats in one A/V using the same speakers 7.2 just switching between the formats 
The difference was quite noticeable


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## Age5

tcarcio said:


> I was sitting here wondering if I should change my system from a traditional 7.1 to a 7.1 useing the front hieght speakers since I now have a reciever with that capability. I haven't seen much talk about people doing this and what they thought about it so I figured I would ask if some of you have opinions on doing this. I don't have a really big room and was thinking it might be more impactfull in a small room to go with the hieghts as apposed to the normal 7.1 setup. Any thoughts or experience with this would be appreciated. Thanks, and Merry Christmas.


MLB
Mmm


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## Tufelhundin

There is a of a writeup on the Blu-ray forum about Audyssey and the use of Wide & Heights. Makes me wonder... it says that the front wides are more important than heights...and that the wides/height should be timbre matched with the three front speakers. 

. I may try and put my four RS450s up front along with my RS200 center. A Lot of info in that thread that BD made.


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## tcarcio

Fastslappy said:


> I have both formats in one A/V using the same speakers 7.2 just switching between the formats
> The difference was quite noticeable


Good info, Thanks. My Marantz has PLIIz so I don't have any other option but will keep that in mind when upgrade time comes. I have an open wall on one side of the room so the front wides would not be an option due to no place to mount them. I could use a stand but it would really be in the way of people coming in and out of the room.


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## tcarcio

TypeA said:


> Interesting read. Yesterday I changed configuration from two each for the left and right to one each for the left and right plus heights. Still experimenting with listening modes to get the most out of the effect, so far the heights were silent in PLIIz......




Try Resident Evil Afterlife, It has great surround with great flyovers that should test those heights.


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## Sir Terrence

SteveCallas said:


> :scratch:
> 
> If you are using Dolby Pro Logic IIx layered on top of DD or DTS, the rear surrounds will be seeing a lot of action, virtually the same amount of action as the surrounds. When you layer it over DD or DTS, PLIIx should default to Movie mode. I get a noticable increase in my surround field with the rears.


This is what I do for both DD, DTS lossless as well. I agree with you, the rear surrounds do get a workout. After hearing PLIIz at Dolby labs, I have no interested in front or side height channels. What I am looking to develop is a processor that can generate a center height channel positioned directly over the listening seats. This is where my interest is, and I am talking to the guys that developed my AV processor about putting one together.


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## caliberconst.

SteveCallas said:


> :scratch:
> 
> If you are using Dolby Pro Logic IIx layered on top of DD or DTS, the rear surrounds will be seeing a lot of action, virtually the same amount of action as the surrounds. When you layer it over DD or DTS, PLIIx should default to Movie mode. I get a noticable increase in my surround field with the rears.
> 
> That said, I am very interested in trying out front height channels as well, as I'm sure it will expand the front sound stage quite a bit. My next receiver will need to handle 9.1 - I'm eye balling the Yamaha RX-A2000/3000.


Well Maybe saying "no action" was a poor choice of words. For me the SB's just didn't do a whole lot for me, and personally I preferred the Height's. I noticed the action going on in the hieghts much more than I did in the SB's. Keep in mind I am referring to Yamaha's version of the height speakers and not Dolby's.


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## Fastslappy

caliberconst. said:


> Well Maybe saying "no action" was a poor choice of words. For me the SB's just didn't do a whole lot for me, and personally I preferred the Height's. I noticed the action going on in the hieghts much more than I did in the SB's. Keep in mind I am referring to Yamaha's version of the height speakers and not Dolby's.


I myself am not a fan of dolby :rolleyesno: anyway & seems that when I do use the dolby's it seem flat & not rich, not detailed, 0r not separated.


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