# Sticky  Before buying any HTIB or Bose cube type systems read this



## tonyvdb

This post is for people who are just starting out and are looking for an inexpensive setup for Home theater.
I have recently seen allot of mis-information being handed out from sales people about the quality of HTIB (Home Theater In a Box) systems and wanted to set some facts out in front of you so that you can be properly informed. 
If your in the market for a new starter system have a read through here.
















First of all this is not going to be a bash Bose or any other company thread so please keep it respectable and informative. But for some really good hard information as to why you should not buy Bose read This.

One of the biggest issues with these so called HTIB systems is the upgadeability, They usually have integrated components and strange hookup connections that make it nearly impossible to replace one piece if it fails. Also if it includes a DVD or BluRay player and they fail your stuck and cant replace it without starting from scratch in most cases. Onkyo and Yamaha have some decent systems that are simply normal receivers and speakers that can be replaced if necessary as budget allows and is a far better way to go if you must go with a HTIB system. None of there lower priced systems offer what I would call good quality. You would need to spend about $700 to get into what I call satisfactory.

HTIB systems tend to be underpowered and in medium to large rooms they lack the power to fill the space and are usually unable to allow for connection of HDMI directly to the receiver needed for all the new uncompressed audio formats coming out.

Ok, now we get into the more technical side of things:

Why should I not get a HTIB system or a system like Bose you ask besides the above mentioned?
Well for one they are all built with small speakers all 5 or 7 speakers including the sub are smaller then what should be used. The drivers in the sattalite speakers are too small to produce high volume levels known as Decibels (db's). A standard db reading of movies is generally no less than 85db this is loud enough to make you feel that the movie is surrounding you. Almost all systems in this group simply can not reach this level safely and will distort. Put simply, if the speaker drivers are smaller than 6" across and or the cabinet is smaller then a spray paint can then don't expect much form them no matter what the specifications say.

The other problem is speaker design, a small speaker physically can not reproduce the lower frequencies needed. A so called full range speaker will have a frequency response from around 45Hz (low) to 20,000Hz (high) the cube or sattalite speakers only go as low as 300Hz at best and that leaves a big hole where there is simply no sounds in that range from 300 down to where the so called sub woofer picks it up at around 140Hz. For example a nice full range speaker will sometimes have three or more drivers, a tweeter that reproduces the highs, a midrange driver and a low driver. buying one of theses systems would be like taking out the low driver and then still using the rest. You end up with a whole lot of the sound missing.

This is where some companies fool you as they will then build a so called sub that has the ability to reproduce those missing frequencies but what they don't tell you is that they simply do not reach high enough and you still end up with a hole in your sound field. The other big issue and huge design flaw is that the so called sub woofer that comes with theses systems is far to small to make enough of an impact with that sort of frequency range and never go below 40Hz which is where most real subs are just starting to work and make an impact where it counts. A true subwoofer goes no higher than about 120Hz and if they are good will go as low as 10Hz but most start to roll off at about 25Hz. These frequencies are necessary for movies as things like thunder, a freight train going by or a Harley Davidson motorcycle driving by are heard or I should say felt.

If you do want to stay small get yourself some good bookshelf speakers that have a good solid wood cabinet not plastic and get a good subwoofer from a reputable company. And if you remember that cheep speakers give you cheep sound then your off to a good start.

What I am saying is if you must go with a HTIB system do not spend the money on Bose as they are far to over priced and do not preform as they say and are very over hyped. For around $1000 you can get into a great system that is far better and wont need upgrading right away.
Save some money before buying or buy a receiver first and use some old speakers you have around the house until you can afford to buy new. Another option is to buy used equipment and there are lots of ways to go about this that I wont go into here.

Have a look at this comparison done by another Shack member explaining the quality difference between decent speakers and the HTIB type speakers that you will get with most HTIB systems.

Another option that some people seem to be looking at is Wireless speakers, Now this in its self can create problems one of them is interference and noise. The other is connecting them to any receiver is not possible as you MUST have Pre-Outs and receivers under $400 do not have them including HTIB systems.
I hope this helps inform some of you who are in this situation and keeps you from making a mistake that will be regretted down the road.

If your insistent on getting into a complete system now and want a HTIB type of system here is two that I recommend both by Onkyo.

The Onkyo HT-S5100's is a good starter system, has real wood speaker cabinats, a 10" down firing subwoofer and even Audyssey 2EQ and an iPod dock. I would prefer if people would go with there top of the line system the 9100THX system its THX certified and has 3HDMI inputs, and has a fantastic receiver for the price (around $900) its going to be tough to beat. The Shack store doesn't have it at the time of posting this information. Amazon has it here


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## salvasol

:clap: . :T

Plain and simple:
1. Check that the HTIB components (speakers, DVD, receiver, etc.) can be upgraded without changing everything.

2. Look for frequency response of the system. Speakers need to reach at least to 70Hz/80Hz (lower is better).

3. Search for reviews, and ask, ask, ask a lot of questions :yes:

4. Read this thread *comparing a regular speaker to a htib speaker*


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## thxgoon

Also don't be mislead by the power ratings they display. Most manufacturers will label the 'total output' power of the system which is a number that cannot be achieved. 2,000 watts for $200? Uh uh. Even if it could, do you really think a 3" paper cone woofer can take that power?

Good advice Tony! Do some research, don't be afraid to piece together a system on your own. With help (here or at the store) a better system for your money can be built that can be enjoyed for a long time.


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## Guest

Hi, thanks for the great info.

Would you consider helping me put together a system in the $1000.00 range? I am overwhelmed by the number of threads here and not real knowledgeable on this stuff at all.

Other than that.......this is for a 12'x24' room with a vaulted ceiling of 22' high that I just built. I don't want to spend tons of $ on the system because I have a much larger area upstairs that will someday have a projection tv and I will want something better up there.

For now........I just want a nice system and considering the wife and I are used to watching a 15" color tv in the bedroom our new 50" sanyo and a cheap sound system will be a whole new world for us.

Also......I do have the ability to make cabinets and such if I were able to save $ but would prefer to save that for the upstairs. There's a walkway in the middle of the current room that is about 9' high. One time I had my portable boom box on top of it and my wife walked in and was confused where the sound was coming from as she couldn't see it so perhaps this room would be good? Might experment with locations I guess.

I apologize perhaps this thread isn't one to ask questions but I need to get going on this and don't want to get lost or a huge headache trying to figure it out on my own. Thanks for your consideration, Rob.


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## Guest

nobletime said:


> Hi, thanks for the great info.
> 
> Would you consider helping me put together a system in the $1000.00 range? I am overwhelmed by the number of threads here and not real knowledgeable on this stuff at all.
> 
> Other than that.......this is for a 12'x24' room with a vaulted ceiling of 22' high that I just built. I don't want to spend tons of $ on the system because I have a much larger area upstairs that will someday have a projection tv and I will want something better up there.
> 
> For now........I just want a nice system and considering the wife and I are used to watching a 15" color tv in the bedroom our new 50" sanyo and a cheap sound system will be a whole new world for us.
> 
> Also......I do have the ability to make cabinets and such if I were able to save $ but would prefer to save that for the upstairs. There's a walkway in the middle of the current room that is about 9' high. One time I had my portable boom box on top of it and my wife walked in and was confused where the sound was coming from as she couldn't see it so perhaps this room would be good? Might experment with locations I guess.
> 
> I apologize perhaps this thread isn't one to ask questions but I need to get going on this and don't want to get lost or a huge headache trying to figure it out on my own. Thanks for your consideration, Rob.


I'd also like to add that the walkway goes over the top of the couch that will be sitting at, I do have the ability to cut in speakers above it if I have to but then again don't know if that would be an ideal place or not or could place speakers on the walkway above. Basically I would be able to do a little custom work if I have to but since I didn't forsee any of this I prefer to look ahead before I start the main room upstairs. Probably just prebuilt system would be best but im open to suggestions.


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## tonyvdb

nobletime said:


> Would you consider helping me put together a system in the $1000.00 range? I am overwhelmed by the number of threads here and not real knowledgeable on this stuff at all.


Sure, I can help you. 



> I don't want to spend tons of $ on the system because I have a much larger area upstairs


For $1000 your still a bit limited if your needing to get speakers, a receiver and DVD player. But I will list soem things at the bottom of the post.


> Also......I do have the ability to make cabinets and such if I were able to save $ but would prefer to save that for the upstairs. There's a walkway in the middle of the current room that is about 9' high. One time I had my portable boom box on top of it and my wife walked in and was confused where the sound was coming from as she couldn't see it so perhaps this room would be good? Might experment with locations I guess.


You should be fine .
For an all in one system minus the DVD player this Onkyo system is just under your budget and has everything you need for your room. It has good speakers and a fairly feature rich receiver (sadly no HDMI inputs) and a subwoofer.
You can then look at getting a BluRay DVD player for about $250 that will also play regular DVDs. Of course this still leaves out a display Was that included in the $1000 budget?

Another option is the Onkyo 5100 its a fair bit cheaper and offers almost the same bang for buck and includes HDMI inputs but less power and a smaller sub but again would do the job. Your room size is fairly large so expecting the relatively small speakers to fill the space with what is known as refference level will be near impossible but its within your budget and will work.

You mentioned going with in ceiling or in wall speakers, this is also not a wise idea as you dont get good imaging form these speakers and unless you spend at least twice as much on them compared to what "bookshelf" speakers will do for quality you will not be happy.


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## Guest

tonyvdb said:


> Sure, I can help you.
> 
> 
> For $1000 your still a bit limited if your needing to get speakers, a receiver and DVD player. But I will list soem things at the bottom of the post.
> 
> You should be fine .
> For an all in one system minus the DVD player this Onkyo system is just under your budget and has everything you need for your room. It has good speakers and a fairly feature rich receiver (sadly no HDMI inputs) and a subwoofer.
> You can then look at getting a BluRay DVD player for about $250 that will also play regular DVDs. Of course this still leaves out a display Was that included in the $1000 budget?
> 
> Another option is the Onkyo 5100 its a fair bit cheaper and offers almost the same bang for buck and includes HDMI inputs but less power and a smaller sub but again would do the job. Your room size is fairly large so expecting the relatively small speakers to fill the space with what is known as refference level will be near impossible but its within your budget and will work.
> 
> You mentioned going with in ceiling or in wall speakers, this is also not a wise idea as you dont get good imaging form these speakers and unless you spend at least twice as much on them compared to what "bookshelf" speakers will do for quality you will not be happy.


Thanks for all the great info! That greatly simplifies things. I like and will most likely buy soon the first option you listed. I already have a tv, not the worlds greatest by far, a 50" sanyo. Considering we've been watching a small tv for the last few years while i've been building this will be a big upgrade for us. This system you recomended looks a lot more substantial than anything i've seen at the local store lol. I'm sure we'll be happy with it.


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## tonyvdb

nobletime said:


> This system you recomended looks a lot more substantial than anything i've seen at the local store lol. I'm sure we'll be happy with it.


I'm glad I could help. Are you planing to get a BluRay player any time soon?


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## Guest

I have noticed prices here are significantly better than available locally, im glad I found this site!


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## Guest

tonyvdb said:


> I'm glad I could help. Are you planing to get a BluRay player any time soon?



Yes. Truthfully I don't even know what BluRay is lol! I assume this plays standard dvd's? If you wouldn't mind posting a link to something in the $250 range that you like that would help out, I really don't know much at all about this stuff. Showed the wife the system you recomended, she said buy it so it looks like we'll be getting it as soon as I get the BluRay figured out. Thanks again, this has saved me a lot of time and hassle I really appreciate it.


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## tonyvdb

If your looking at getting a BluRay player you may want to get the second system I mentioned as BluRay uses a special connector for audio and video called High Definition Media interface (HDMI) BluRay is a new DVD format, the movie is recorded in High Definition and looks really good compared to standard DVD. The HDMI connector is 100% digital and includes the audio all in one cable. The BluRay player will still also play your regular DVDs.

The Panasonic BD35 is one of the better ones available or the Samsung BD-P1500 but the standard DVD playback is not quite as good.


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## Guest

tonyvdb said:


> If your looking at getting a BluRay player you may want to get the second system I mentioned as BluRay uses a special connector for audio and video called High Definition Media interface (HDMI) BluRay is a new DVD format, the movie is recorded in High Definition and looks really good compared to standard DVD. The HDMI connector is 100% digital and includes the audio all in one cable. The BluRay player will still also play your regular DVDs.
> 
> The Panasonic BD35 is one of the better ones available or the Samsung BD-P1500 but the standard DVD playback is not quite as good.



Yes I overlooked the HDMI part. Do you think there will be a huge difference in sound with the smaller system? We don't need anything stellar and the smaller system still looks pretty good to me.


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## Guest

Probably will order this stuff when I get home from work today. I don't even have the furniture moved into the room yet I am waiting for the floor coat to cure. Tv's still in box, kinda hoping I don't end up needing a bunch of extra wires and such, man those give me a headache lol. Thanks again.


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## tonyvdb

nobletime said:


> Do you think there will be a huge difference in sound with the smaller system? We don't need anything stellar and the smaller system still looks pretty good to me.


Probably not, Video wise you will see a difference but the speakers are not really large enough to really hear the difference between using just the standard Dolby digital or DTS audio that is included on BluRay DVDs. HDMI allows a person to use the newer audio formats called DTS Master Audio and Dolby TruHD as these two formats are uncompressed and have a better dynamic range that both systems mentioned above wont really have the size to reproduce.


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## salvasol

nobletime said:


> Probably will order this stuff when I get home from work today. I don't even have the furniture moved into the room yet I am waiting for the floor coat to cure. Tv's still in box, kinda hoping I don't end up needing a bunch of extra wires and such, man those give me a headache lol. Thanks again.


Congratulations ... and Welcome to the Hobby :T

I completely agree with what Tony suggested ...as far as cables go, if you just connect the BluRay, Onkyo 5100 and TV you'll need "two HDMI cables", one from BluRay to receiver, and another from receiver to TV ...:yes:

If you need to buy cables, this place has the better prices www.monoprice.com ... and as far as connections goes; if you have any difficulties ... feel free to post and somebody will help you with the steps ...:T


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## MatrixDweller

One of the things I see a lot on HTIB systems is that their wattage rating is fairly high. They'll have in their specs that it is a 900W system or even a 2000W system when you include the subwoofer. If you look at the spec in more detail you'll see that the receiver might be rated for 140W per channel at 10% THD and only at 1000Hz (not 20-20,000Hz). At 10% THD the sound would be just horrible and there would be so much clipping that the speakers could get damaged. Even at around 1% THD the system would start to sound pretty bad. If you were to rate the wattage of the receiver at a more respectable 0.1% THD it would probably only be putting out a 10th of the power. 

Ask the average Joe what the number one quality of a home theater receiver, or stereo system for that matter, that dictates it's quality and they will say wattage. Bottom line is that the manufacturer is deliberately misleading an uneducated consumer to think that the speaker system is better than it actually is. They aren't outright lying about it, they are just banking on your ignorance.


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## tonyvdb

MatrixDweller said:


> One of the things I see a lot on HTIB systems is that their wattage rating is fairly high. They'll have in their specs that it is a 900W system or even a 2000W system when you include the subwoofer. If you look at the spec in more detail you'll see that the receiver might be rated for 140W per channel at 10% THD and only at 1000Hz (not 20-20,000Hz). At 10% THD the sound would be just horrible and there would be so much clipping that the speakers could get damaged. Even at around 1% THD the system would start to sound pretty bad. If you were to rate the wattage of the receiver at a more respectable 0.1% THD it would probably only be putting out a 10th of the power.


This is why I like the Onkyo 5100's price point. Its a good starter system, has real wood speaker cabinats, a 10" down firing subwoofer and even Audyssey 2EQ and an iPod dock. I would prefer if people would go with there top of the line system the 9100THX system but its over $800 and the shack store doesn't have it. Most people that are just starting out dont want to spend that kind of cash and want an entire system right away.

I have edited my first post to reflect this information.


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## MatrixDweller

The 9100THX system almost makes me want to sell everything...well almost. If I had to buy a HTIB it would be that one. A great receiver and half decent speakers. I might buy one for my living room if it would pass muster with the finance mistress.


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## Guest

MatrixDweller said:


> The 9100THX system almost makes me want to sell everything...well almost. If I had to buy a HTIB it would be that one. A great receiver and half decent speakers. I might buy one for my living room if it would pass muster with the finance mistress.





I decided to just go with the 5100 and the Samsung player. Mainly because I am in the process of building the upstairs entertainment area and this room will probably not be used a whole lot when it's done so ill save the $ for upstairs.

One last question for now...........Am I going to need extra cables and what kind? I'd just assume order them and get it out of the way. Thanks for everyones help/ suggestions.


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## salvasol

nobletime said:


> One last question for now...........Am I going to need extra cables and what kind? I'd just assume order them and get it out of the way. Thanks for everyones help/ suggestions.


What will you be connecting??? :dontknow:

If is just TV, BluRay player and AVR (receiver) you need two hdmi cables (one from player to AVR, and another from AVR to TV :yes:


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## tonyvdb

salvasol said:


> you need two HDMI cables (one from player to AVR, and another from AVR to TV


And dont buy the expensive Monster or other over priced cables as there is no difference in quality other than paying for the name. This one will work just fine.


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## MasterGuns

nobletime said:


> I decided to just go with the 5100 and the Samsung player. Mainly because I am in the process of building the upstairs entertainment area and this room will probably not be used a whole lot when it's done so ill save the $ for upstairs.
> 
> One last question for now...........Am I going to need extra cables and what kind? I'd just assume order them and get it out of the way. Thanks for everyones help/ suggestions.


 Good advice by all on equipment and cables. One last thing you are going to want to take into consideration is speaker wire. If you have a 24 foot room you could potentially have between 30-50 ft runs of wire (in order to hide it.)
Don't get caught in the trap of buying the expensive wire.I recommend that you go to Your friendly neighborhood bigbox hardware store, and ask for a reel of 14-16 gauge zip wire (14 gauge for over 30 ft). You can pick the color that matches your decor best. If you are smart you will make sure you're runs are long enough for your future home theater and you can use the same wire. :yay2:


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## waldo563

I wish I had read this before I made the mistake of buying a Bose Acoustimass system. I'm not saying that the Bose systems may not be right for some people who will never want to upgrade anything and may not care about room filling sound. Unfortunately, I only considered the proprietary speaker hookup after the fact and was constantly straining to hear the dialog on the center channel (which of course is identical to all of the other speakers).


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## Jeff

I was originally going to go with the Bose system but after researching for a while, I was able to put together a very respectable system and save myself thousands of dollars.

I was trying to make a clean install with a roll up screen, no speakers on the floor and all components hidden. Everything was a success, except I was unable to hide the Sub.

My system is as follows:

135" Motorized Tension Screen
Panasonic PT-AE3000
Pioneer SC-07 Receiver
Samsung BDP1590 
Belkin Power Conditioner
7 Speaker in ceiling system
12 Inch Sub
And All Cables

For half of what I was being quoted for the out of the box systems, with WAY more flexibity and expandability.

Both myself and wife are extremely happy with the system. It is good quality, looks and sounds good, kids can use it, everthing is hidden out of the way when the hockey sticks are out and our room is not overpowered when sytem is not in use.

It definately pays to do your homework and shop around. I owe alot of my success and knowledge to sites like this.


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## Sam Ash

MasterGuns said:


> Don't get caught in the trap of buying the expensive wire.I recommend that you go to Your friendly neighborhood bigbox hardware store, and ask for a reel of 14-16 gauge zip wire (14 gauge for over 30 ft). You can pick the color that matches your decor best. If you are smart you will make sure you're runs are long enough for your future home theater and you can use the same wire. :yay2:



You are so right about the cables / wire. Unfortunately, I learnt that the hard way. If I knew this earlier, I could have put the extra money where it really matters (amp, speakers, projector). :rolleyesno:


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## HelenK

I am a complete newbie to all this and I just wanted to say THANK YOU for this thread! I was about to buy a HTiB from Amazon or Bestbuy, but since I came across this awesome site I have definitely changed my mind.

I'll be posting a new thread with my questions, so if anyone can help that would be greatly appreciated!!


Thank you!


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## tonyvdb

Thank you and Welcome to the Shack!
Did you have a look at this post as well. Lots of great deals to be had if you know what to look for.


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## Wilberfaust

One of the reason's Bose Lifestyle Systems sell, is not for an audiophilles' benefit, but as the name suggests, for Lifestyle buffs. Predominantly for those who dont like to move their furniture- nor want A/V to dominate the Interiors. Extensions into porticos, and outdoors is also simple. One HTIB that transcends both design & functionality is Bang & Olufsen. Horses for courses, I reckon.


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## neomatrix_23

Back in '95 in my first foray into HT I was ready to hand over my credit card to a Bose salesman but pulled it back at the last moment. 'Just made an excuse so I could get out so I can go other audio stores in the area - One of the best decisions I made.

I eventually came out from another store with an H/K receiver and better sounding speakers.


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## smurphy522

One system I can recommend is the Onkyo HTS6300. It is a full fledged 7.1 system. It can also run as a 5.1 with a powered second zone or Dolby Pro Logic IIz ambient height channels. I have it set up with the second zone (back porch and kitchen) and 5.1 configuration (~7,500 ft³ family room). While I could certainly benefit from a more powerful system, based on the vast size of the room, it is plenty for our daily needs. When we want to rock out or game on we go upstairs to the game room or the home theater room (yup - got em both!). It has decent beginner speakers (though they are molded plastic their sound is acceptable for most applications) and a 10" powered subwoofer. It can be found online for as little as $500 shipped. It is a true receiver and even comes with an iPod dock. It has all of the latest HD aidio codecs and is HDMI 1.4a certified. It does 1080p scaling via Faroudja DCDi Cinema processor and even has Audyssey 2eq w/dynamic eq and volume! The remote works well though a little quirky, as many receiver remotes tend to be (worlds better than my HK though).

I give it a very high recommendation for the price and is an awesome place to start.

I actually purchased this system so that I could take my H/K receiver, Carver Sub, JBL and Kef speakers upstairs to use in the home theater. So glad I did!

I am also using Best Buy's Rocketfish wireless rear speaker kit (~$100) to run the rear channels. It works wonderfully (actually for the last 2 years) and has no interference from my wireless phones or Wi-Fi.


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## Ban-One

That was a very good read. My friend at work loves his Bose system. He has everything Bose. I have been to his house and listened to it. It sounds ok. Like the actical said, they sound good when you are right in front on the speakers. I must say that I wanted Bose until I talked to some sales people from different stores. 

There is a Bose factory store down the road from my house. I may go in there and sit threw the demo, then ask them where there control room is.


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## greenspanatl

Maybe you can help me! I am looking to purchase a home theater system for my media room and I am looking to spend about $1200 for a receiver and speakers. So far I am leaning towards a Marantz NR1402 or an Onkyo TX-NR905 coupled with a Definitive Technology ProCinema 600 system. Also does the Onkyo SKS-HT540 Speaker sset compare with the Pro Cinema 600?


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## Theresa

12 gauge wire is better, especially for long speaker cable runs. Parts Express has some AR brand 12 guage in thirty foot spools for $10. I use it for all my speakers.


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## tonyvdb

greenspanatl said:


> Maybe you can help me! I am looking to purchase a home theater system for my media room and I am looking to spend about $1200 for a receiver and speakers. So far I am leaning towards a Marantz NR1402 or an Onkyo TX-NR905 coupled with a Definitive Technology ProCinema 600 system. Also does the Onkyo SKS-HT540 Speaker sset compare with the Pro Cinema 600?


I can highly recomend the Onkyo 905 if you can still get one, as long as 3D is not something you care about that receiver would last you years and has far more power than any receiver out today that sells for $2000 for the speakers the Definitive Technology ProCinema 600s would do just fine.


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## Sam Ash

greenspanatl said:


> Maybe you can help me! I am looking to purchase a home theater system for my media room and I am looking to spend about $1200 for a receiver and speakers. So far I am leaning towards a Marantz NR1402 or an Onkyo TX-NR905 coupled with a Definitive Technology ProCinema 600 system. Also does the Onkyo SKS-HT540 Speaker sset compare with the Pro Cinema 600?


Hi, I think the NR905 will be nice if you can manage to find one. There was a time I was looking for an NR906 for my 5.1 set-up but I could not find one at all.

Have a look and hear these speakers before you make a final decision:-

1. KEF KHT 3005 SE
2. KEF T Series (T305)
3. A customised set-up (see below)

The first 2 above will definitely work and I think you'll be very happy with them.

The 3rd option above means that you don't mind spending a little more in order to optimise your system by way of gaining more value from your investment. This would also mean that you don't mind having a combination of floor standing and book-shelf type speakers which will sound better. The speakers that I am about to suggest do look very nice too.

Assuming you will be able to locate the NR905 or NR906, you can then go for the following 5.1 set-up:-

- 2 x KEF Classic IQ50 (Front Left & Right)
- 1 x KEF Classic IQ60c (Centre Speaker)
- 2 x KEF Classic IQ10 (Rear Left & Right)

The only remaining item left to complete the speaker system would then be a decent powered sub-woofer. Don't buy a KEF sub-woofer because there are better 3rd party sub-woofers out there that will give you much better performance at a better price. Instead of the common consumer sub woofer brands, look at entry-level powered sub-woofers made by: SVS, HSU, Rythmik or Epic. Talk to some of these companies, you may be able to pick stuff at clearance prices or at times they do really good deals on ex-demo units. I have read good things about SVS subs - I'm sure if you call them, they will help you to make the right decision.

I think it's important for you to make the time and hear these speakers for yourself.

Just to mention, I have been following a company by the name of Emotiva (www.emotiva.com) in the USA, I know there are allot of companies out there but these guys make really good amps at reasonable prices and from what I have read they provide excellent customer support. You might want to look them up and have a word with them in regards to your needs and budget.

KEF USA: www.kef.com/html/us/

Hope that helps.

Regards,

Sam


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## tonyvdb

One note on Emotiva, They make fantastic amps but avoid there SSP as it has many issues and is not going to be nearly as good as the 905 not to mention if you do get a 905 or 906 the amps in it are more than capable of driving 120wats per channel all 7 channels driven.


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## Sam Ash

tonyvdb said:


> One note on Emotiva, They make fantastic amps but avoid there SSP as it has many issues and is not going to be nearly as good as the 905 not to mention if you do get a 905 or 906 the amps in it are more than capable of driving 120wats per channel all 7 channels driven.


Hi Tony,

Thank you for that information. I assume by SSP you mean "surround sound processor". Are you referring to the UMC-1 (Pre Amp/Processor) ?

What issues does it have generally ?

I like the fact that emotiva have implemented the basic and useful codecs and features without all the extras. I remember reading somewhere that emotiva is planning on releasing a new pre amp/processor, not sure whether that will happen or they might decide to iron-out the problems in the current version.

Currently I use an Onkyo receiver, I don't use or need more than half the features built into my amp. The only things I use is the blu-ray sound format decoding (Dolby True Hd & DTS Master HD), Dolby Digital for standard DVDs and Dolby ProLogic II for music listening. I wish Onkyo would stick to the important stuff and then cut back on the extras to provide more per channel amplification power.

Cheers,

Sam


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## tonyvdb

Sam Ash said:


> Hi Tony,
> 
> Thank you for that information. I assume by SSP you mean "surround sound processor". Are you referring to the UMC-1 (Pre Amp/Processor) ?
> 
> What issues does it have generally ?


Yes, surround sound processor or what some call a PrePro. 
The UMC1 has been riddled with issues most recently failing to pass the HDCP handshake meanning that with many users they can not use HDMI because it wont accept the copywrite signal that is passed over HDMI and thus wont display any video.

The UMC-1 is a well built PrePro but uses its own proprietary Auto room EQ that does not do anything to the sub channel and lacks in other functions, Audessey is much better. I like Onlyo as they have THX certification giving you some very useful processing modes that I and several other members here use exclusively with movies.


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## Sam Ash

tonyvdb said:


> Yes, surround sound processor or what some call a PrePro.
> The UMC1 has been riddled with issues most recently failing to pass the HDCP handshake meanning that with many users they can not use HDMI because it wont accept the copywrite signal that is passed over HDMI and thus wont display any video.
> 
> The UMC-1 is a well built PrePro but uses its own proprietary Auto room EQ that does not do anything to the sub channel and lacks in other functions, Audessey is much better. I like Onlyo as they have THX certification giving you some very useful processing modes that I and several other members here use exclusively with movies.


That is good to know Tony, hope Emotiva looks into those issues and resolves them in the next model / upgrade.

Do you know of any users of Emotiva amps ? 

Would be nice to get their experiences in terms of acoustics and comparisons.

Cheers,

Sam


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## tonyvdb

In all realism, an amp is an amp as far as sound quality if its designed properly. The Emotiva multi channel amps rate very high on the build quality. I know many members here who use them and have nothing but good to say and for the price they are hard to beat.
If you looking for a pre-pro and have not bought one yet I would seriously consider a mid range receiver with pre outs rather than a pre-pro as they are far cheaper and offer far more features for the money.


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## Sam Ash

tonyvdb said:


> In all realism, an amp is an amp as far as sound quality if its designed properly. The Emotiva multi channel amps rate very high on the build quality. I know many members here who use them and have nothing but good to say and for the price they are hard to beat.
> If you looking for a pre-pro and have not bought one yet I would seriously consider a mid range receiver with pre outs rather than a pre-pro as they are far cheaper and offer far more features for the money.


Cheers Tony,

Although I am in no rush, I intend to invest in really good floor standing speakers. I really like the mid-range and higher-end speakers by KEF due to their sound fidelity and the benefits of their UNI-Q technology. I'm told by other that users that B&W do very nice speakers too.

I am aware of mid-range and high-end receivers and some of them are very good. The good higher-end receivers cost more or as much as the emotive separates. My intention is to get an amp that can really drive my speakers to their full potential. When you look at premium amps by the likes of Meridian, Krell, Rotel and Classe they are really expensive.

I remember reading somewhere about a person that was using a mid range receiver with KEF's Classic IQ Floor standers. He later upgraded to Emotiva and mentioned how much better the speakers sounded.

I suppose I like the concept adopted by the Emotiva team - excellent amp technology/performance at affordable prices backed by super customer support.

That brings me to a very interesting question in my quest to carefully establish the ideal system - Is there an American speaker manufacturer that has achieved with speakers what emotiva has achieved with amps ? In other words is there an American speaker manufacturer that has made speakers that are better or as good as KEF speakers but at affordable prices ?

Sorry, I know this is off topic - but I'd love some help from enthusiasts, AV geeks and professionals on this forum. I will appreciate pragmatic responses as opposed to responses from brand loyalists.

Regards,

Sam


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## tonyvdb

There are many, I personally like SVSound, they dont sell in store only on line but the quality is very very good. Many people on this forum have bought the subs and speakers and have nothing but good to say.


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## JBrax

You might also take a look at Klipsch. They don't seem to get much praise here but I've always been a fan. In particular the reference line has some great speakers at fairly affordable prices.


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## KalaniP

JBrax said:


> You might also take a look at Klipsch. They don't seem to get much praise here but I've always been a fan. In particular the reference line has some great speakers at fairly affordable prices.


I concur (my HT is all Klipsch Reference), although I get the feeling that Sam Ash was more looking for a small US-based speaker company that offers excellent support as only smaller motivated companies can (like Emo), and I'm not sure Klipsch falls into that category.

Emotiva and SVS come to mind, for sure. Emotiva's new reference series speakers look interesting (although I haven't seen many, if any, real reviews so far), and SVS' speakers get nothing but raves from users and reviews alike. SVS would almost definitely be the superior of the two, comparatively, in every way, although they're certainly priced higher as well. (SVS subs DEFINITELY beat Emotiva's, in every way but price, no doubt... their subs are way better than Klipsch, too)


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## Sam Ash

Thank you all for your kind help and valuable input.

I have heard about SVS, they are well known for their sub woofers. In fact, I never knew they make speakers too until now. I thought SVS is a specialist sub woofer manufacturer.

I am aware of Klipsch too but don't have in-depth knowledge their products, I will certainly look into it.

Not sure about the Emotiva reference speakers. As one of the members mentioned; there are no comprehensive reviews on the net.

What I am trying to establish is whether there are any USA based speaker manufacturers that could be compared to KEF or B&W or are in the same league. As you all know KEF and B&W (Bowers & Wilkins) are considered to be the most reputable speaker brands in the UK.

KEF reference speakers are very highly acclaimed for their sheer performance, built and acoustic finesse. They look and sound fantastic. It seems that the scientists behind KEF are passionate and dedicated people. I guess the only issue is the price which is pretty steep.

It would be nice to hear from users who have experienced KEF and B&W products but managed to find alternative speakers that sound just as good and have a reasonable price attached to them.


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## JBrax

One more suggestion on your speakers Sam. I live in KC Missouri and I know just down the road there is a speaker company by the name of Martin Logan that seems to be highly acclaimed. They are out of Lawrence Kansas. They are a bit pricey however.


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## phreak

If you are not opposed to supporting the friendly economy north of the 49th parallel there are some great Canadian speakers. Paradigm and PSB would be among the best known.


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## KalaniP

Curious why the necessity that they be US-based? Paradigm is located in Canada (America's Hat! (jk)) and makes speakers that easily hold their own against B&W and the like, IMO. If I wasn't already invested in Klipsch for my HT, I'd move to Paradigms in a heartbeat. I do have Paradigms in my bedroom setup, and love them.

I keep hearing raves about Energy speakers as well, but again, they're in Canada, not the US. I have not had a chance to evaluate them vs. the Paradigms, however.

When I shop for new speakers (not subs) these days, it tends to be a 3 horse race between Paradigm, B&W and Monitor Audio (another UK-based speaker maker... I guess I really like those UK and Canadian speaker manufacturers!).


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## Pinchgrip

I used to sell Onkyo and Bose back in the day. Both good companies. Buy what's right for you.


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## vecktor

While I agree that small speakers generally don't perform very well, I'd make two counter-points:

1) In some living spaces, large speakers just aren't a viable option (due to space constraints or WAF [wife acceptance factor]). In these cases, the trick is to find the few suppliers of small speakers that outperform.

2) There are some smaller speakers that do a remarkably good job. AuraSound used to make some Baby Grand and Whisper Ensemble speaker systems that used their patented NRT technology to get more sound out of a small enclosure than anybody else.


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## auge.dog

A few other small speakers that perform well are Gallo Nucleus (and I assume the Orbs, as they appear to be almost identical), and M&K Xenon series if you can find them. These can all go pretty loud, especially for their size, and coupled with a good sub, can sound pretty decent as well.


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## tonyvdb

auge.dog said:


> A few other small speakers that perform well are Gallo Nucleus (and I assume the Orbs, as they appear to be almost identical), and M&K Xenon series if you can find them. These can all go pretty loud, especially for their size, and coupled with a good sub, can sound pretty decent as well.


These speakers still are to small to reproduce frequencies below 300Hz at any meaningful levels so any good sub would not fill that gap. As a properly designed sub will only go up to around 160Hz


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## AudioX

Personallly, I think there's quite a few FAIRLY DESCENT SOUNDING home theater in a box systems out there which, in the right room - yes, actually perform pretty nicely! 
To be clear, if you can integrate the subwoofer and sats in these budget/compact systems well into the room (ie, so they couple with the room solidly enough at their critical crossover reigions - so no "hole" in the sound), YOU'D BE SHOCKED AT THE LEVEL OF PERFORMANCE YOU GET, FOR SO LITTLE!!!!
I've had experience with the likes of the Infinity TSS750/1100 setup, the little Klipsch sat sys, the Polk RM system, Energy's little dudes, and others. And, mixed with a budget entry receiver from likes of Denon, Harman, Pioneer, etc, I think under $700-800 or so can get you a stellar sounding system that will satisfy most of the HT enthusiests out there! 
Ok, sure, you won't get world class dynamics compare to more ambitious larger systems. But, at modest volumes, and taken in context, pretty nice...I think!
Anyway, at the very least, I think most would be supprised at what they do get for so little (no pun), when chosen carefully! Sure there's lots of poorly built HTIB kits out there, to be had on a retail shelf near you. But there's also some little gems out there as well...and deals gallore on a basic HT receiver of pretty stellar sound quality and processing power for so little money, these days, to go along. Just gotta carefully plan, pick, and chose -to match up properly. Fun!


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## lcaillo

I agree that there are probably some HTIB products that are adequate for many users. How would you suggest making a good choice? How do you know what will be built well and what is not?


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## cdunphy

I bought a bose accoustmass 10. I have wanted a bose system for a long time at least 30 yrs.So one day feeling a little blue I popped into bose and tried to buy a system.They turned my credit down I couldnt believe it I was so mad I went home and bought the 10 system with an onkyo tx-nr414, I shoulda let it go.I was determined and as i said I was feelling down and I often buy something in that state .I get it set up and started to listen to it I was right away disappointed listing to music some songs I have listened to all my life sounded terrible I had heard that some times home theater could sound bad and to listen in just 2 channel stereo it was better,but not what I would call good.I must of read a thousand magazine articles about home theater(shoulda done that first ).I decided I would upgrade by getting a center channel speaker and settled on a def tech 1000 center channel and wow suddenly music started to sound good and movies I could hear the dialog clearly.It made such an impact I got into music again and started down the path I am on.I dream of having a silly macintosh system driving revel 45000 $ theater speakers.Theonly thing the bose system did is waste 1400 dollars I am terribly dissapointed in them, in my middle class existence Bose was a dream purchase I thought I was getting something cool to be proud off and they failed badly. Dont buy bose accoustmass systems I did and it really messed me up
CD


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## bxbigpipi

I have the onkyo hts 7300 and I think it's great, no complaints here.


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## Jules Winnfield

cdunphy said:


> I bought a bose accoustmass 10. I have wanted a bose system for a long time at least 30 yrs.So one day feeling a little blue I popped into bose and tried to buy a system.They turned my credit down I couldnt believe it I was so mad I went home and bought the 10 system with an onkyo tx-nr414, I shoulda let it go.I was determined and as i said I was feelling down and I often buy something in that state .I get it set up and started to listen to it I was right away disappointed listing to music some songs I have listened to all my life sounded terrible I had heard that some times home theater could sound bad and to listen in just 2 channel stereo it was better,but not what I would call good.I must of read a thousand magazine articles about home theater(shoulda done that first ).I decided I would upgrade by getting a center channel speaker and settled on a def tech 1000 center channel and wow suddenly music started to sound good and movies I could hear the dialog clearly.It made such an impact I got into music again and started down the path I am on.I dream of having a silly macintosh system driving revel 45000 $ theater speakers.Theonly thing the bose system did is waste 1400 dollars I am terribly dissapointed in them, in my middle class existence Bose was a dream purchase I thought I was getting something cool to be proud off and they failed badly. Dont buy bose accoustmass systems I did and it really messed me up
> CD


ANTHING Def Tech makes will blow the "best" Bose clean out of the water....and for half the price at that!


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## wayne.xingle

So useful and convincing. It is one of the best threat I have read. Now have a clearer idea what I should get. Thanks a lot.


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## slansing

So true, I bought a 5 speaker Polk Blackstone system two years ago after getting back from basic training. I was initially impressed with the quality. Of course, two years later and having bought a mid range projector, these speakers are dwarfed and simply will not do, aesthetically or acoustically.. I wish I had just saved the $250 and put it towards an individual speaker, then slowly built a high quality system.. Oh well! The parents get the hand-me-downs now that I am out on my own.. hello Tekton M-lore's!


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## Moviehound

I started out with a Bose cube system but now have a separate pre/pro, amplifier, Paradigm Studio speakers, and dual SVS subs along with an oppo DVD player. For where I was when I bought the Bose it fit my needs perfectly. I have since passed the Bose down to my daughter and son-in-law who continue to enjoy the system in their family room. I think that Bose and home theater in the box systems have a place. Many folks new to home theater lack the interest or budget to get into home theater separates starting out. I got a lot of enjoyment out of the Bose system when I had it but have since "graduated" into more capable and expensive components. Yeah, I could have saved money had I gone a different route at the beginning but at the time I was not ready to jump into the home theater hobby with both feet.


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## patkrish

Hi,
Thanks for the info. I do not believe in HTIB. Not worth the money. Planning on putting up a system using Onkyo TXNR 828 receiver and polk Audio speakers. Let me know ur thoughts. Thanks.


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## chashint

Sometimes it's good to see an old thread get kicked to the top again.
HTIB systems certainly have their place when the budget is tight.
It has been a while since Tony first posted the links to those HTIB systems, the current versions are better now than then.
I encourage anyone and everyone to make the leap into surround sound and offer to help my friends / coworkers set it up and calibrate it.
The bigger the deployed surround sound base is the bigger the demand for improvement in the programming.
As long as the vast majority listen through the TV speakers there is little incentive for the broadcast / streaming providers to put much effort into better audio.


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## tonyvdb

I dont think much has changed as far as the quality of those systems? I agree that the market drives what is made and they are popular but that does not make them a better buy if your looking for something that is going to last as well as sound good.

@patkrish, thats a much better option. Stay with reputable speakers and a good receiver and your off to a great start.


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## chashint

The AVRs are better than when the thread was started.
The speakers look like they are the same.
Every year the entry level gets flow down tech and in a lot of cases holds the price or even gets a little cheaper.

It's a good thread and your info is still applicable today.


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## Jason_Nolan

1


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## bxbigpipi

I finally upgraded from my onkyo htib. Went with a denon receiver and klipsch front and surround speakers. Have to wait awhile before I can get the center and
sub.


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## patkrish

Thanks to all for the info and support. Am at work now. Take care.


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## imported_juiceblrc

HTIB are garbage. If you have a small room and a small budget I guess it is better than TV speakers.


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## imported_juiceblrc

BOSE is just wasting money paying for a name.


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## imported_juiceblrc

When I bought my first HTIB (many years ago) I was shocked that my dads white van speakers actually sounder better. No joking.


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## chashint

imported_juiceblrc said:


> HTIB are garbage. If you have a small room and a small budget I guess it is better than TV speakers.





imported_juiceblrc said:


> BOSE is just wasting money paying for a name.





imported_juiceblrc said:


> When I bought my first HTIB (many years ago) I was shocked that my dads white van speakers actually sounder better. No joking.


If every Black Friday TV came with a modest HTIB it would ultimately help the HT enthusiast.
HTIB and Bose are not everyone's preference, but they both have a place in the home (especially apartments) and for constructive discussion in the forum.
The best way to get the media providers to improve the sound quality delivered to the end user is for more widespread deployment of surround sound systems at all price points.


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