# This site is slowly driving me CRAZY.... HELP!



## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

I am really new to this site, I met Sonnie on a Machinist Forum and he led me here  I have spent the last 10 years on AVS and I am currently finishing up my second home theater room..

Until I came here I though I had my room all planed out and things were going great...NOW everything I was going to do seems like its all wrong.... What to do!

Over on AVS I read that what I needed to do was install 1" sound absorbing batting up to ear level on the sides and back wall.. Leave the rest of the wall untreated so as not to deaden the room too much... Then thick carpet along with 2 inch absorption batting on the screen wall would be all I would ever need... 

Over here I am not really sure what the consensus is and I am now seriously doubting my current plan... 

Have I just been reading too much?


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

Also forgot to add a "slight" problem.... My room shape is poor 

At the time I designed the house I had to weigh many space use issues and after many redesigns, well the room is what I have to work with.

The screen wall is 19' wide and the back wall is 25' away. Ceilings are 9' tall and there is a 6' wide riser running the full width of the back wall..


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

If you could post a diagram of your room and what your current sound treatments are it would help. (you can use things like google sketchup)
Also, do you have the necessary equipment to use REW to see what is really going on in your room?


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## Medi0gre (Oct 30, 2012)

Your room "sounds" AWESOME! Wish i had that space.


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

robbo266317 said:


> If you could post a diagram of your room and what your current sound treatments are it would help. (you can use things like google sketchup)
> Also, do you have the necessary equipment to use REW to see what is really going on in your room?


I have a onkyo 818 with REW... Have not set it up because the carpet is not in... 

The room has no treatments right now because I stopped after reading threads here  The room is just a big box 19' by 25' by 9' tall. 

I currently have a 135" screen , that really a 129" viewing area ( Thanks Visualapex for the deceptive advertising on screen size) hanging on the 19' wall. I will have to make a new screen to get the size I originally wanted..


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

No need to worry, & welcome aboard. It's good that you don't have any treatments up so far. 

The primary reason to treat is to fix problems (sounds simple, right?!!!). The best plan is to measure your room & see where the problem areas are. Depending on your results, speaker placement may help. After that, it will be time to treat your specific problem areas.

When that is all done, you can run you room correction software, cook some corn, & enjoy the show!


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## phazewolf (Feb 5, 2012)

Starting with a blank room is great. I wold place a seat where you want it then setup the speakers and start with REW and start moving the speakers to try to make things as flat as possible.

Then I would if you are willing play with seating and see if you can fine toon things. Once you have everything placed you can start with first reflection points place bass traps and then see what else you need to make things sound right.

How many subs are you planing on using?


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

I can tell you from personal experience that the advice you will get in our Home Audio Acoustics forum is first rate. Follow it and your room will sound great.


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

hjones4841 said:


> I can tell you from personal experience that the advice you will get in our Home Audio Acoustics forum is first rate. Follow it and your room will sound great.


Completely agree. Lots of knowledge & good advice on this site. Bryan from GIK is very helpful and has lots of experience. Good luck


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Thanks for coming on over, you may get several opinions here but we do try to let the person who knows best give you the final answer and information. There are folks here in every walk of life that know exactly what to do with no expectations from you, it is a great place to teach and learn.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Welcome. If you can maybe post a sketch and/or some pictures of your room, I'd be happy to take a look and make some recommendations. You're correct in stopping and not following the 1" everywhere and nothing thicker school of acoustic treatment. While it sounds damped when clapping your hands, it's not at all addressed in a complete manner and the bass is still out of control.

We'll get you there.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Welcome! I would definitely follow Bryan's advice above. You will get the benefit of much valuable experience here.


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

I will draw something up this afternoon  Thanks for all of your help!


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

Here is a floor plan of the space I have to work with. I can't move the exterior walls of the large room as they are all load bearing and I had to install a metal I Beam just to get the width I wanted. 

The screen is shown mounted to the wall.. One of the ideas I have been playing around with is moving the screen deeper into the room with either a decorative "Island wall" or hiding the speakers in the wall.. 

The riser is installed 17" from the screen wall. I have already installed to 2" conduits for any extra wiring I need to run to the attic along with 2, 20 amp lines, dimmers for the lights, speaker wiring for 7.1 and two Cable for TV.. All this is terminated in the left side of the desk where the mini equipment rack was going to be installed. 

The walls and ceiling are textured and painted double layer 5/8" rock with green glue. Deep red color on the walls and flat black on the ceiling and screen wall.. I was going to install trim boards to dress up the room with fabric covered panels.... Only a 6" tall base board is installed now, the rest is on hold...

Carpet is not in the room now but is ordered. Its a deep brown patterned carpet that weighs 39 ounces. Under that we are going with the thickest padding that will not show furniture dimples.


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## phazewolf (Feb 5, 2012)

Unless a speaker is made to be installed into a wall it will make the speaker sound bad. At least that has been what I have seen over the years. There are reasons for it but I lack the detailed technical knowledge to really put it into words. If you want to understand why ask in the diy speaker forum here there are some very knowledgeable people there who can tell you more of the do or don't on such.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Can't read the deminsons very well, is the room square? That will certianly cause acoustic problems.


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

I was not going to install the speakers into a wall, just build a wall in front of them so that the screen and speakers are "flush" and the speakers don't stick out. There would be about 2 feet of space behind the screen.


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## phazewolf (Feb 5, 2012)

I very well maybe off base with this but I (think) it would cause issues with the speakers with how they would sound. Having speakers behind the screen is fine if it is transparent to sound. But the speakers need to be so far away from the side walls and back wall to work right. If you were to say place one in a cabinet as a example that would work poorly. 

Maybe I am not getting what you are saying it has been a long day at work.


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

Sorry,, I will upload the picture to a server in a little while... The room sizes are listed in the drawing ... IN the theater look under the Room Size text...

Yes the room is almost square... It's what I have to work with.....


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## phazewolf (Feb 5, 2012)

A square room can be made to work just more work in treatments. Bryan from GIK can help you the largest issue as I know is money.

The worse the room is as I have found out the more money it wants to work it's best. I love the room I only wish I have a usable room like that.


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

I added a PFD file to the post with the drawing... You should be able to magnify it enough to see the details really well.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

If you build the false wall as just studs and cloth, no drywall, it'll work just fine as acoustically it doesn't even exist.


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

Thats the plan


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## phazewolf (Feb 5, 2012)

Now that make sense. I somehow thought you were talking about building a shelf into a wall with a back to hold the speakers and that was what I was thinking you were talking about not a open back studded wall like structure which should work just fine.

Sorry about that.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

That room is almost identical size to mine.

Are you planning on using this for movies/TV only ... or will there be any "critical" music listening?

I am trying to remember who it was that installed the 1" acoustic board with carpet on top... down both sides of the wall and in the back, but it is escaping me who it was. It has been a while, but he had to take every bit of it out because his room was so dead sounding. As best I can remember it took most all of the high end out, but did not do much at all for the bass, mid-bass, or midrange areas.


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

Sonnie it's going to be mostly TV/Movies/ BIG computer screen 

Website clients will be shown different designs, side by side, during the day and at night it will keep me company as I work at the desk... 

I would imagine the carpet over 1"would really make it dead! I was going to use 1" A/C ducting covered by frames wrapped in GOM on the bottom 42 inches and GOM covered frames on the top of the walls.. Now.. WHO KNOWS


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Ah okay... I was thinking in-wall or "behind acoustic wall" speakers probably won't be the greatest for two-channel music, but if it is mostly for video stuff... then they shouldn't be an issue.

Knowing the location of the speakers will help in treating the walls, but I would think treatment in selective areas would be appropriate, along with maybe some corner traps. I am sure Bryan can give you some good recommendations.


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

Luckily I am really wide open for ideas and can build or change almost anything... Right now I am sitting on a 5 gallon bucket waiting on carpet


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

How high can I mount surround speakers? 

For safety sake I would like to mount the side and back surrounds above head height. I have 9' ceilings and would like to mount the speakers so that the bottom of each speaker is 7" off the ground.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

They will be fine at that height.


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

Ok,, second part of the question now that I know 7' is ok... 

For now I am going to use 4 Bose 301 series 5 speakers as surrounds.. I know the general consensuses is that Bose are junk but they were free so they fit my current needs very well  

For years I have always wanted to build a set of angled speaker side wall surrounds as I though they might be a better fit for theaters that have more than one row of seats. When I was looking up the specifications for these speakers I found they were designed to lay sideways and have different speakers angled to " bounce " sound off the walls and might make a better surround speaker than just a forward facing speaker would. Keep in mind I am a "babe in the woods" when it comes to speaker placement for "proper" sound and what I think is just a guess. 

Bose makes a very economical set of wall brackets for these speakers, 20 bucks for a pair. The brackets mount the speakers flat to the wall and there is no provision to angle the speakers down towards the main listening positions. Should the speakers be angled or is flat ok?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I did the same thing with my PSB surrounds that had two angled drivers on them... with brackets to mount them flat against the wall. They worked well for me. I personally think the 301's will make the perfect surround with the way the drivers are angled. Ambiance and diffusion is basically a good thing in surrounds. If you look at some of the surrounds available, several of them have angled drivers, dipoles, bipoles, etc. Once you get them level matched and the distance set from the main listening position, I suspect they are going to be as good as any other surround.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Play with the positioning of the 301's, tweeters out vs. tweeters in, you find one position blends with the room better. Since you're using these as surround; I'd pick the position that sounds more diffused.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

What about turning your listening seat around and hooking the surrounds up as mains to find where they image the best?


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

I'll try anything once 

I think I will pick up some french cleat material and make some quickie brackets this weekend. Home Depot carries a pack that will probably mount all four and the way these speakers are made I can just swap left sides for right sides and try all the different combinations..


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

Picked up the mounting hardware tonight and plan on working on the speaker placement over the weekend.

I have a question on the placement of the rear surrounds on the back wall. When I installed the in wall speaker wire I was planning on placing both surrounds in the center of the back wall, as the THX site suggested. 

At the time I wired the room I was not really sure which projector I would end up with and not sure on whether it would need to be closer to the screen or mounted on the back wall. Turns out my projector is a light cannon and is now mounted on the back wall with the bottom of the projector 20" from the ceiling. 

IF I mount the surrounds in the center of the wall I will need to place them on either side of the projector and they will have about 4 feet of space between them with the projector in the middle.

After seeing the way these speakers bounce sound around I am thinking they might be better placed about 2 feet off each side wall...

Before I go punching a set of holes in the walls I would like to know your opinions on centered speakers verses wide spaced surrounds.. Is the THX suggestion really the way to go?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

They actually should be separated per THX...


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

I was going by the first diagram on this page...


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Are you not using Dolby True HD and DTS-HD?


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

The diagrams I used had the rears between 30 and 55 degrees so mine are about 40 degrees and now I see 30 degrees is THX. Of course they are already installed!


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

Sonnie said:


> Are you not using Dolby True HD and DTS-HD?


Maybe, maybe not... How the would I know 

I have not really had the time to keep up with all the new formats and I am still figuring out how to turn this new receiver on!


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Doesn't it display on your AVR... Maybe as a logo or in text?


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

ellisr63 said:


> Doesn't it display on your AVR... Maybe as a logo or in text?


• THX Select2 Plus Certified
• Incorporates Qdeo™ technology for HDMI Video
Upscaling (to 4K Compatible)
• HQV®-Vida Video Processing with 1080p Video
upscaling of All Video Sources via HDMI
• HDMI (Audio Return Channel, 3D, DeepColor,
x.v.Color, Lip Sync, DTS-HD Master Audio, DTS-HD
High Resolution Audio, Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital
Plus, DSD and Multi-CH PCM)
• Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio
• Dolby Pro Logic IIz and Audyssey DSX®
• DTS Neo:X

These are the features listed in the manual. Looks like it will do any format and wash the dishes too! 

When you add all the formats and then 5.1 7.1 9.1 and 11.1 it starts to get confusing as what you really need to be doing or setting up for...


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I would split them up per the diagram I provided you... (my opinion).


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

Sonnie said:


> I would split them up per the diagram I provided you... (my opinion).


Then that's what I will do


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## swatkins (Nov 26, 2013)

Just an update...

I hung the 301 on the side and back walls. The bottom of the speaker is 7' off the floor and the ceilings are 9' tall. I have experimented with the direction the angled speakers are facing and I really have not noticed a lot of difference in any of the positions. Last night I played an old favorite, Independence Day, and was really pleased at the overall sound... One thing I noticed on that DVD is the surrounds took over much of the duties of the L/R and the L/R just blended in..

Carpet and padding is in! The difference in sound is just amazing, can't wait to see what happens when I work in the rest of the treatments  I have ordered a Mic from MiniDSP and as soon as it arrives I am going to give REW a workout. 

Thanks for all the advice


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Awesome... glad to hear it is working out well. :T


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