# Best Narrow L/R Speakers



## reward72 (Sep 7, 2015)

Hi All!
I'm building a home theatre and I need recommendation for L/R/C channels. They will be used 50% for gaming, 30% for movies and 20% for music. To room 128" wide a 30' deep with the projector screen on a narrow wall. Seating position is about 12-13' from the screen. So the listening area is actually 10.3/4' x 13' with the "back wall" open.

The screen is 104" wide and already purchased, it's against an exterior wall so in-wall speakers are not really an option. That leaves 24", a feet on each side of the screen, for left and right channels. Clearance under the screen shouldn't be a problem for any center channel. 

So... I was thinking of two KEF R500 for L/R and a R200c for the center channel or a pair of Aperion Verus Grand towers and center. That gives you an idea of the budget. Both speakers I understand are 8" wide which should fit the available space. The question is how well will they sound that close to the wall and in that shape of a room? I understand that some towers like those from Definitive Tech and MartinLogan require that they are positioned at a good distance from the side walls. I need speakers that still sounds great when positioned in the very corner of a room. I could position them maybe a foot or two from the back wall, but hardly more than a few inches from the side walls. I already own a SVS SB2000 sub and I'm thinking of adding a second one. Receiver is a Marantz SR5009, I don't plan to change it for now. 

I'm open to any brand, I don't have any experience with good quality speakers. The best speakers I have is a KEF T205 system which I find good enough for my living room, but I want my dedicated home theatre room to sound like I'm actually at the theatre. Sadly in my town there aren't many brands I can listen to in a showroom, so I'll have to rely on recommendations to purchase without a test drive... 

I look forward for your recommendations!!
Thanks


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

I don't see anything wrong with your speaker choice; KEF makes some nice products. Your concern about the speakers distance from the wall is indeed a valid one because the soundstage tends to open up when there are fewer boundaries to contend with. I suspect it will be a problem with any speaker you choose though, given the placement limitations, so perhaps you should go for the speakers you're most comfortable with. In your case it may not be as big an issue though because usage is directly inverse to what is the most demanding from a SQ perspective. Music has more critical listeners, followed by movies and then gaming. Since the most sensitive source material will be the least used it might not be all that noticeable.


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

Looking at some measurements the impedance both sets of towers drops to 4Ohms in the power band. You should check if your receiver handles 4Ohms. 
Based on your Gaming/HT usage you may prefer something with more dynamics like the Aperion (this is only based on driver dimensions). You can probably go hear something like the Paradigm Monitor 11v7 in Quebec city (centre HiFi). 
The placement raises two issue: early reflections and additional bass.
It may be a good idea to keep some budget to treat the side wall in front of the L/R speaker to reduce the effect of the early reflections. Toe-in and tweeters with waveguides should also help mitigate the issue. For 1-2 persons listening to HT, you will be capable to move the speakers away from the front wall and at the same time from the side walls while not interfering with the viewing triangle to the screen. For critical listening to music, you can always move the speakers farther from the walls.
Additional/excessive bass is mitigated with your receiver's tone controls.


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## reward72 (Sep 7, 2015)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but being that close to the side walls, shouldn't I go with towers that are less bass-heavy and compensate with a better positionned subwoofer or two?

The Marantz SR5009 does support 4 Ohms speakers according to documentation. Is it good at it? I don't know.

Thanks for your help!


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

reward72 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but being that close to the side walls, shouldn't I go with towers that are less bass-heavy and compensate with a better positionned subwoofer or two?
> 
> The Marantz SR5009 does support 4 Ohms speakers according to documentation. Is it good at it? I don't know.
> 
> Thanks for your help!


I'm not sure what you're saying here because towers offer more bass than bookshelf speakers. The issues being mentioned are not really associated to the lower frequencies though, it's the midrange and upper frequencies were the congestion and early reflection issues are bound to be.

dgmartin had some good tips when he suggested you toe in the speakers somewhat and consider wall treatments. That will surely minimize the issues and may be sufficient to mitigate them to a point where they're no longer audible.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

reward72 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but being that close to the side walls, shouldn't I go with towers that are less bass-heavy and compensate with a better positionned subwoofer or two?


While it's true that close proximity to a wall or corner will reinforce lower frequencies, it's also true that specific distances from the wall cause corresponding frequency cancellation in accordance with Speaker Boundary Interference Response (SBIR):
cancellation frequency = speed of sound / (2 * path length difference)

It's good you're already aware that speaker location determines sound quality (SQ). Sometimes speaker location is constrained by room shape/furnishings; other times it's constrained by Wife Acceptance Factor (WAF). Unless the speaker manufacturer recommends specific placement near a wall or corner, it's best to choose speakers based on their own merit. In other words, I would choose the best speakers my budget allowed without settling for colored sound. It's difficult if not impossible to predict what they will sound like _anywhere_ in your room, let alone a specific location. Choose them for accurate reproduction, or a warm presentation; it's all subjective and up to you. :bigsmile:

But trying to choose them for less bass content flirts with disappointment when you move to a different room. Another angle to consider is that speakers which accentuate or favor one part of the spectrum over another tend to grow annoying over time, though they usually present very good initial impressions. Choose a mains speaker with bass down to at least 60Hz and let the AVR's crossover and DSP do the heavy lifting when it comes to controlling bass. Yes, it's better to first get frequency response right via speaker location. But it's not advisable to pre-select speaker response based on perceived or expected room response. :T


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## reward72 (Sep 7, 2015)

That make a lot of sense. Lucky for me, the WAF is not an issue in the dedicated home theatre. She won the living room and kitchen with everything out of sight, but I'm free to do anything that I want in the HT. I got away with painting the whole room black to get the most of the projector 

Can you suggest any good towers that do recommend placement near a wall or a corner?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Wilson Audio Duetts come to mind. They do the job extremely well, but at the extreme price of around $30,000! Another solution is offered by Bose, but aren't recommended by this Shackster because they lack good response at both ends of the spectrum. In situations where speakers MUST be placed against a wall--or closer than high performance criteria will allow--certain sacrifices MUST be made. Usually soundstage and imaging (SS&I) suffer the most. Next up is boomy bass with muddy midrange. Those effects may be slight or exaggerated depending on the room, but they are governed by physics and can't be changed. All is not lost, so fear not! Toe-in and room treatments can help. Can you spare even a foot or two behind the speakers? If not, definitely go with a sealed design.


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## reward72 (Sep 7, 2015)

$30K is a bit over my budget, for sure! I can go to 3K$ for the pair. I'm not a fan of Bose either, they are impressive for the size, but even my untrained ear can feel something is missing. I can certainly move the speakers a couple of feet from the back wall, it's the side walls that are more problematic. If I move the speakers more than a few inches they will cast a shadow on the screen.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

http://www.goldenear.com
I would start here.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

theJman said:


> I don't see anything wrong with your speaker choice; KEF makes some nice products. Your concern about the speakers distance from the wall is indeed a valid one because the soundstage tends to open up when there are fewer boundaries to contend with. I suspect it will be a problem with any speaker you choose though, given the placement limitations, so perhaps you should go for the speakers you're most comfortable with. In your case it may not be as big an issue though because usage is directly inverse to what is the most demanding from a SQ perspective. Music has more critical listeners, followed by movies and then gaming. Since the most sensitive source material will be the least used it might not be all that noticeable.


:yeahthat: Sorry, didn't see this before.



theJman said:


> dgmartin had some good tips when he suggested you toe in the speakers somewhat and consider wall treatments. That will surely minimize the issues and may be sufficient to mitigate them to a point where they're no longer audible.


^ +1 (again).

As you can see, I was asleep-at-the-wheel. Others have already covered the angles. The only other value-added comment I can bring to the table The KEF's are more directive than most with their UNI-Q design (I owned a pair and can attest to their pinpoint imaging). I understand the same is true of horn-loaded designs like Klipsch, which have many fans. Have you auditioned any of their models? You might try posting in the Klipsch Owner's Thread for info/suggestions along those lines. Hope I haven't wasted your time (I'll be sure to review threads more thoroughly in the future).


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> http://www.goldenear.com
> I would start here.


...and just in the nick-of-time! Thanks, Willis, I needed saving from myself. :sweat:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lumen said:


> ...and just in the nick-of-time! Thanks, Willis, I needed saving from myself. :sweat:


 just doing what I do. Up up and away!!!! Yeah right. The reason they come to mind for me is they're on my very short list of potential upgrades. Due to this they entered my mind quickly.


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## reward72 (Sep 7, 2015)

I already own a KEF T205 system in my living room and for casual listening (TV and music) I like how "clean" they sound (for a lack of a better word). But they certainly don't make me feel like I am in a theatre. For my dedicated home theatre I wanna go a little crazy and get a taste of the good stuff. 

I did audition the KEF R500 in a showroom and they certainly are in a different league. But I did sample other good speakers in that same showroom and they all sounded so much better than what I'm used to. 

I feel just like when I first started drinking wine many years ago, they all tasted great until I knew better


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

reward72 said:


> I can certainly move the speakers a couple of feet from the back wall, it's the side walls that are more problematic. If I move the speakers more than a few inches they will cast a shadow on the screen.


As you move the speakers away from the screen, this will give you some room to move them away from the wall. They can advance into the room following the edges of a triangular path no-go area. Of course the wider the seating area, the more your triangle resembles a rectangle. Apart from the cancellations Jim mentioned, the extra LF gain can be attenuated by removing a few dB of bass with the tone control. Also you can plug the vents to reduce the LF output.

Considering your investment, it maybe be worth a drive to Montreal to listen to more models in a single day.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Can you go with an AT screen... if so then you could go wall to wall with the screen, and move the speakers closer together.


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## reward72 (Sep 7, 2015)

ellisr63 said:


> Can you go with an AT screen... if so then you could go wall to wall with the screen, and move the speakers closer together.


Sadly i've already purchased the screen and it is not acoustic transparent. I guess i could return it but it's on an exterior wall with embedded steel beams that would make inwalls quite a challenge. I have to stick with towers.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

ellisr63 said:


> Can you go with an AT screen... if so then you could go wall to wall with the screen, and move the speakers closer together.


 That was my next question.


reward72 said:


> Sadly i've already purchased the screen and it is not acoustic transparent. I guess i could return it but it's on an exterior wall with embedded steel beams that would make inwalls quite a challenge. I have to stick with towers.


 how deep is the room?(can't remember sorry) Ron is saying (I think) to do an AT screen on a false wall, and then you can have more freedom of placement. IMO, in walls aren't up to the task.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Why not return the screen, get an AT screen, and use the towers behind an AT screen? Tower speakers would be better than in walls, and you could set them up properly since they would be behind the screen, and not interfering with the screen if they are in front of the screen.


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## reward72 (Sep 7, 2015)

Sadly the available space is already pretty small at about 10'x13'. If I make it 10'x10' I'll get claustrophobic! That was a good idea though...


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## RanZiv (Mar 1, 2008)

I can vouch for the Aperion speakers. I owned the Intimus 5T for LCR and and 4bp for surround back - they are/were fantastic for my theater (just sold house and moved and theater equipment were part of the deal :crying Anyway, mine were pretty close to the wall ~10 in or less - although I had treated my front wall with sound absorption.

I really don't think you can go wrong with the Aperion - they give 60 day trial no risk and offer a full value trade up if you ever get the itch.

GL and keep us posted :T


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## reward72 (Sep 7, 2015)

I'm intrigued now by the Definitive Tech Mythos STS for my narrow room. They are front firing and seems to have good review... What do you guys think?


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

reward72 said:


> I'm intrigued now by the Definitive Tech Mythos STS for my narrow room. They are front firing and seems to have good review... What do you guys think?


Never heard those... In fact the smaller the woofers the higher frequency it takes so they become directional. So narrower speakers will throw more sound (and interact) more with the side walls even if you can locate them a few inches farther. Controlled directivity speakers use larger woofers (10-15in) crossed over to horn/waveguides for that reason. Along the same line, most of the speakers you mentioned so far are MTM-type. These have good horizontal dispersion but it might not be to your advantage given your prospective setup.


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## reward72 (Sep 7, 2015)

dgmartin said:


> the smaller the woofers the higher frequency it takes so they become directional.


So are suggesting I go with towers that don't bother trying to go too low and compensate with better positionned standalone subwoofers?


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

reward72 said:


> So are suggesting I go with towers that don't bother trying to go too low and compensate with better positionned standalone subwoofers?


Yes this is true although I was referring to the mid-woofer dispersion in the mids... Looking at the speaker without having read the details I did not assume the woofer system would be marketed as subwoofer. This page is full of misinformation and the specs are irrealistic. Does not mean their engineering is bad but rather than marketing department had its way. Nevertheless what you suggest above will yield better results at lower cost.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

How about these Klipsch speakers... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Klipsch-Ico...peaker-Each-/291483822185?hash=item43ddca2869 ?


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

ellisr63 said:


> How about these Klipsch speakers... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Klipsch-Ico...peaker-Each-/291483822185?hash=item43ddca2869 ?


Given you listening mix and your room, the Klipsch would certainly be worth a listen. Given you budget you may want to aim at the Reference series (RF-24/26/28). Note that they are often on sale at Best Buy so do not pay full price.

At this point it is probably a good idea to go out and listen to Klipsch, KEF, Paradigm and see what you like best. Good luck!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

dgmartin said:


> Nevertheless what you suggest above will yield better results at lower cost.


^ +1 
Now just to throw another option into the kettle... :devil:
Low cost and high performance can be had with a mix-n-match set of Chane speakers. The A5rx won the HTS $1000 speaker shootout! Shop here. Read reviews here, here, and here
:bigsmile:


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## reward72 (Sep 7, 2015)

My mind is pretty much set on KEF now. A pair of R500, a R200c, a pair of R100 for the rears and a pair of in-wall Ci160QS for the side surrounds. I also have a pair of SVS SB-2000 subs. I'd rather spend a little more, keep the equipment longer and not wonder "what if?". 

They should be installed in about a month, I'll share my experience and some pictures with you guys. Thanks for all your advices.


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