# Measured performance - speakers



## gulo (Jan 27, 2008)

I need an objective way to decide between speakers i haven't heard. I know that is asking a bit much, but with internet sales, there is seldom a choice.

I'm trying to decide between PSB Imagine B, Paradigm studio 10/20, and SVS MBS-2. SVS is the only company of the three that publishes a fair amount of info aside from FR. (Still, I'd like distortion and cabinet resonance waterfall plots - hint.)

The MBS is very insensitive but is easy to drive. The PSB and Paradigm are extremely well engineered, but the data available is inconsistent, and is almost all from third-party reviews (which may also differ in methodology).

Has anyone seen direct comparisons, blind listening tests or at least comparable data for these or equivalent speakers?


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Hi Gulo, it is very hard sometimes to get the exact information you require about speakers especially direct comparisons and graphs with the dat you want, the only way is to demo where possible and if it is online sales from the likes of SVS you just have to look and read some of there background history to know the quality of there speakers and subs, have a look in the SVS Forum  HERE  to know that they are a company with a solid history and repertoire.

Oh and welcome to the Forums :T


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## skeeter99 (Jan 24, 2007)

Agreed, really the best way is to listen for yourself. If its not possible, search through GTG threads or comparison threads where people have listened to multiple speakers on the same gear (critical part of comparison is gear will change the overall tonality GREATLY!). 

Which version of the Paradigms are you looking at? The newest version? They've been making them for so long and have had many different versions. I really like the Paradigms but the SVS are very nice as well. I have not personally hear the PSB.

What gear are you running now and what will the main focus of the system be? I'm guessing since you're posting in the HiFi section its for 2-channel but it doesn't hurt to ask  More info on your past and current gear and your room and listening habits are going to help us recommend something a bit better.


Scott


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## Docks (Jan 16, 2011)

If you search for frequency response, that's usually a good indicator of measured performance. There's several others like step and phase responses. PSB and Paradigm both make very good speakers.


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## Docks (Jan 16, 2011)

Oh! and dont forget off and on axis responses!


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Welcome, Gulo!

Are you able to go take a listen to the PSB Imagine B or Paradigm Studio 10/20's? They do have different sonic signatures. Perhaps the dealer(s) would let you take one or both speakers home for an audition. That would be the ideal way to determine which one you want to live with. 

As stated above, reading owner reviews of the SVS MBS-2 is the best way to get a handle on it (of course, read on the PSB and Paradigm, too), and you might be able to find someone locally who has this speaker and would let you take a listen.


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## gulo (Jan 27, 2008)

I wrote a long-winded post explaining why I trust distortion measurements more than listening tests in a foreign environment, but hometheatershack killed it because it had some hyperlinks and I don't have five posts yet. How frustrating.

I'm a long time lurker, but haven't posted much.


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## gulo (Jan 27, 2008)

Oh Man, am I a slow learner. I lost another post because of the link thing and forgot to make a copy before submitting. It had no links, but did have the name of a web site.

So...


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## gulo (Jan 27, 2008)

I will...


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## gulo (Jan 27, 2008)

Just have too make 5 posts.


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## gulo (Jan 27, 2008)

Back to the topic at hand...

Yes, I listened to the Studio 20s and will audition the PSB bookshelves later this week.
The problem is that it is hard to compare speakers when I listen to them days apart in different settings. It is also hard to pick up low levels of distortion in a short audition. That's why I think measurements are important.

I built my own speakers when I was a teenager, but that was before the invention of the personal computer (literally). I'm told things have changed since then.  I have my own measurement setup now, and will probably just order the SVS system for measuring. If it fails, I'll send it back and keep looking. I suspect it is the most likely of the three to pass.

I am surprised that thorough measurements are not often made of any new speaker model. It is so much easier nowadays. One site that lists basic measurements is http://www.speakermeasurements.com/ . ZaphAudio and a few others measure drivers and, importantly, measure each harmonic separately but I haven't found a site that measures speakers that way. 

I'm open to suggestions for other bookshelves that have < 1% distortion down to 80 Hz (where I cross over to my SVS PB12+).

-g


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

If you are limited to subjective auditions separated by a lengthy period of time, I suggest bringing familiar music with you and taking notes to compare later.

To test on and off axis response by ear, try playing pink noise if at all possible. Stand up, sit down, walk around and listen for changes in tonality. Of course, keep in mind the room and listening position will play into all of this.

If you are going to invest in measurement gear, why not also invest in trying out all the candidates in YOUR room? You might find that any small expense incurred in doing so is less expensive than buyer's remorse later on. :doh:


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

If you find a good dealership they should be willing to lend you the speakers to listen in your own environment with your equipment which is the best way, I know my dealership if they want my business they they will but some may ask for credit card details if they don't know you which tbh is fair enough, especially if you are serious about a purchase.


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## gulo (Jan 27, 2008)

I'll ask the Paradigm and PSB dealers if they are willing to lend me the speakers for a couple of days, but I don't have a lot of hope for that. You are right - I don't lose anything by asking.

I like the pink noise idea for off-axis testing while at the dealership. Thanks for that. I'll try to find a pink noise FLAC file to play.


-g


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## skeeter99 (Jan 24, 2007)

Sounds like you're making some great progress! Keep us up on what happens 

Scott


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

gulo said:


> Back to the topic at hand...
> 
> Yes, I listened to the Studio 20s and will audition the PSB bookshelves later this week.
> The problem is that it is hard to compare speakers when I listen to them days apart in different settings. It is also hard to pick up low levels of distortion in a short audition. That's why I think measurements are important.
> ...


While measurements can and do help to narrow down one's choices they can't and don't tell you how a speaker actually sounds. Two speakers with very similar measurements can and usually do sound very different. The only way to know exactly what you want is to actually listen to the ones you're considering. Another persons opinion means very little when buying speakers. The number of different brands and models suggested when this question is asked should be a indicator of how different each brand sounds and how personal everyone's choice is.
Speaker manufacturers that do only internet sales usually have very liberal return policies. They realize that you may not like them after you get them. The only way to make absolutely sure you're getting speakers that you really want is to actually listen before buying.

The best way to audition speakers is to play music you like and are familiar with. Pink or white noise is fine for measurements. Who listens to pink noise at home? In short, speaker measurements usually don't mean very much. It's how they sound reproducing music that matters and nothing else


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## Theresa (Aug 23, 2010)

I think that measurements do tell you how a speaker will sound and how they sound can tell you how they will meeasure, to a degree. I can look at some test results and reach the conclusion that a driver is worth getting or not and when listening to my speakers can tell me a lot about how they would measure. Yesterday I ran a pink noise with RTA and my center speaker is almost flat from 100Hz to over 10kHz at less than ten feet. I thought it was flat and it was. What is important though is whether you LIKE the sound of your speakers. If you don't like a flat response than you need to look for one that has whatever characteristics are important to you. I think getting rid of as much distortion you can is important first, at least for me.


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## gulo (Jan 27, 2008)

Thanks Theresa,
As you mention, reducing distortion is a primary goal, if one intends to listen at higher volumes. Measurements can and do tell you something about how a speaker sounds, at least in the environment in which it was measured. I agree that limited measurements only tell you a limited amount, and it is not always easy to make the correlations between hearing and measurements, but the main problem is that neither hearing in a store nor measurements will tell you how a speaker will sound in a home theater. At least measurements are (relatively) objective and are not subject to the limitations of acoustic memory. 

For me, the next important thing is the roll-off off axis, because that is hard to do anything about. A flat FR curve is important in that it minimizes the amount of correction required, and therefor retains more of the dynamic range of the system. As for liking or not liking a flat curve, I think that is almost beside the point. Once I have an accurate system, I can add any inaccuracies I want. 

Right now, I've actually taken a step backwards in my decision process, as I don't know if I want point sources or line sources (or both?). Line sources could give better sound for more seats. For point sources, the PSB Synchrony One B and the new SVS MBS-02 are still the leading candidates.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

Sorry folks, I have to disagree about speaker measurements. As an Electrical Engineer (since 1976) and an audiophile (since 1967) I have a great deal of familiarity with measurements, the devices used to make them and interpreting the results. With most gear and especially loudspeakers they can only serve to narrow down the choices. 
With speakers there is no substitute for actually listening. Anyone with any experience will say the same thing. Unless one is very lucky, buying speakers on specifications and measurements is a sure fire way of getting speakers that will not really satisfy. Audiophiles (enthusiasts) that have had the same speakers for a while end up with them because they've listened to and bought lots of speakers over time. The ones they've had for a long period of time are the ones they are satisfied with. That's why many of us "old guys" either don't respond to threads like this or respond with admonitions to listen before buying. The fact that we rarely mention or recommend specific brands or models and always advise actually listening to them first should tell you something.

FWIW: Since I discovered Magneplanars in 1976 no monkey coffins (box speakers) that I could ever afford have satisfied my ears. To give an idea of my speaker budget, I've lately been thinking of buying a pair of new Magneplanar 20.1's or Quad 2905's both at $10K+.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

duplicate post deleted


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

JoeESP9 said:


> Since I discovered Magneplanars in 1976 no monkey coffins (box speakers) that I could ever afford have satisfied my ears. To give an idea of my speaker budget, I've lately been thinking of buying a pair of new Magneplanar 20.1's or Quad 2905's both at $10K+.


How about a mint pair of used Magnepan 3.6s sent into Peter Gunn for a Magnestand transformation for under $7,000 and call 'er good?


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## gulo (Jan 27, 2008)

I don't disagree that existing measurements are only a small part of the story. I am certainly not going to buy just on measurements. I've listened to enough speakers to be thoroughly confused. 

I love planar speakers in general. I tried maggies in a store listening room and hated how they sounded, yet I'm sure they would sound great in my living room, where I could place them far enough from a back wall (I can't in the home theater downstairs). In the store, they sounded very disconcordant, presumably because of the backplane echo (I pulled them out to 4 feet from the wall). 

As I said, I normally like planars. I have a pair of ML Vantages in my living room, supplemented by a SVS12+ sub. I like the sound up to moderate volumes (with full FR correction). Something like an Acoustat would be nice, but, like the Maggies, I figure I wouldn't be able to place them far enough from the wall to be useful. In any case, I want the home theater to serve a couch flanked by a couple of chairs, so the narrow sweet spot of a planar would be a problem.

I have thought of trying a linear ribbon (e.g., Newform Research R645) to avoid the planar beaming and to avoid the backplane echo interferences. The edge turbulence may be worse at higher volumes, but maybe I could keep them within 4 or 5 feet of the back wall. Unfortunately, I can't find a place to audition them. The best plan I can come up with is to order the SVS and Newform systems and try them side-by-side, then send back the least favorite one. Maybe I am just waiting for a better plan.

Just a thought - do you use any sound adsorption behind your planars?


Thanks all, for your thoughts.


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## gulo (Jan 27, 2008)

Trees behind the Maggies! Fractal sound dispersion & absorption. I like it!


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## Theresa (Aug 23, 2010)

Line sources, esp. bipolar ones are appealing. For myself I don't have the space. Those B&G line arrays appear to be good. Speakers are such a personal taste, whether distortion is low or not there are people who will prefer one over the other. I would like to know why my Eton Magnesium/ceramic dome tweeter sounds better to me than the ScanSpeak Discovery tweeter in my center channel, but of course the impedance is different. I tested the center speaker which has a ScanSpeak 7" slit cone woofer and the Discovery tweeter that was designed by Peerless before they were acquired. It measured flat from 100Hz to over 10kHz using ungated pink noise, quite phenomenal I think. I don't have any technical reasons, they both have low distortion, no dome ringing and are crossed over the same. Its not a big difference, just a slight one. The difference is not enough to skew the image at least for me.
If you have the room I would get a line source. I saw a post a couple of days ago with someones design of a line array that is enclosed and mounted in a corner. Wondering if that would work in my space, although mine wouldn't use cones but instead B&G pseudo ribbons.


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