# AVR to use as a Pre/Pro



## Pupton (Jul 15, 2006)

Hi all,

I've been researching this for a bit and wanted to get others input before I completed a purchase. I've been looking at the several AVR's for my bedroom HT. It would be used as a Pre/Pro as I already have amplification (Outlaw 750). Input is a Toshiba HD-A2 going to a Toshiba 42" 1080p LCD. I also have a old Samsung HD841 to play some SACD (less than 5% total).

Requirements:
HDMI In/out
Multi-ch pre-ins (for SACD)
Multi-ch pre-outs (to AMP)
Nice to have: Separate crossover points for front/center/rear/surround


Here's the list of AVRs I'm considering:
HK AVR247
Yammie RX-V661
Yammie RX-v1700
Denon 2307ci
Denon 2807

I'm not too worried about the amp sections within the AVR (although for resale it should be a consideration). I'm not a big DSP fan, so I'd use the TrueHD if available, or DD+ / DTS. Sound quality, build quality, ease of use after initial setup are my biggest selling points.

Thanks for any input you may have on the topic!

Mike


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I've had the Yamaha 1700 and now have the Denon 2807. I used the a Denon 3805 and 3806 as pre-pro with a Earthquake Cinenova and I was just as happy with either of those as I was the $2500 Audio Control Maestro M2. Now I just use the receiver alone. 

The Yammie sounded the best to me... slightly more laid back than the Denons, but I struggled reading its display (tiny) and there were a few other quirks that made me decide to sell it and go back to Denon, hence the 2807. The 1700 does not have separate crossover settings.


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## mojomike (Feb 12, 2007)

I can vouch for the Denon 2807. There is plenty of flexibilty in the bass management area and if used properly, the Audyssey auto eq can be very effective.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I think any of those would be a fine choice. I personally have a Denon and have never had a problem with it. I've also heard good things about the Yammie's -- very popular. HK though, I personally have had some bad experiences with in the past. Maybe I was just unlucky, but I had 3 units fail on me over 4 years. Again, probably just unlucky.

The one you haven't mentioned is Onkyo. Their current line that just came out is supposed to be pretty good and support the latest HDMI standard. I'm not sure if the latest version from the others can handle HDMI 1.3 or not.

JCD


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## Pupton (Jul 15, 2006)

Thanks to all for your thoughts... I'm prolly dropping the HK ... I had it recommended to me due to the fact that several NHT owners think it mates well with the NHT speakers, but since I'm running external amps, that really doesn't matter much I think...

I've had some Onkyo's in the past and just like the Yammie's & Denon's a little better.

The Audyssey and 1080p switching may be enough of a difference to get the 2807 instead of the 2307....


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

I'll cast a vote for the Denon as well,... another happy camper. The only complaint I have with my Denon 3805 is the inability to set different crossover points for my mains and surrounds. Other than that :T


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## rcarlton (Apr 29, 2006)

I wouldn't recommend an AVR as a pre-amp, even though I am using one now. Resale value is much higher on a pre-amp than receiver. Why pay for something you already have, an amp. Consider an Outlaw 990 to go with the amp. It has DVI which should work fine. You'll just have a few more cables. When you decide to move on to another unit, I suspect you'll be able to get most of your money back, doubt if you'll be able to with the receiver.


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## Otto (May 18, 2006)

If he's looking to do True HD audio, or whatever other audio formats are coming on the HDMI cable, a lot (most) pre/pros don't yet process them. On the other hand, he can use the 7.1 outs from whatever HD-DVD/BluRay player into a preamp. If interested in an Outlaw 990, mine's for sale...


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## Pupton (Jul 15, 2006)

I agree a Pre/Pro would be my preference, but I'm limited with my needs of HDMI in for both audio & vidio... My A2's will send TrueHD via HDMI only (PCM already processed)... I'd love the 990 to mate with my 750, but without the HDMI audio option, it's not gonna cut it for what I want to do. IF I had the XA2, I could send it via the analog outs, but alas I do not ... unless someone wants to trade me an XA2 for two of my A2's


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## HionHiFi (Feb 18, 2007)

The cheapest way to go is quite possibly the Yamaha 661, which I have owned. It does a phenomenal job with switching, and processing. The only caveat to Yamaha is that it doesn't do OSD over HDMI. For some people it is a deal breaker, to some it's not so important. YMMV. 

The Yamaha, I don't believe supports different crossovers. If my memory serves me right.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Are there any that do OSD over HDMI?


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## Pupton (Jul 15, 2006)

I've read that the new Onyko's 605/805, etc do, although I do not know for sure... It's not something I've really looked at,.... 


On this same topic, maybe you (or anyone else) could smartened me up on something. I've been reading other posts where they state that some AVR's will only do OSD over HDMI at 480i (as apposed to 480p/720p/etc).... why would it be so important for the OSD to be progressive, if all you need it for is to make changes on the fly, etc.... I'm sure it's important, but I'm not getting it? 

Thanks!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I think an example would be seeing the adjustments you make on the fly. Probably only an occasional thing for most folks. But if you are watching anything other than 480i, you'll have to stop it and switch to 480i... or possibly if you are not watching 480i, then you won't be able to use OSD at all.

One reason I preferred it was because on the Yammie I had, the front panel display was super tiny and I could not read it from my seating position. When I changed the volume it would have been nice if it popped up on screen. It's more of a convenience feature for me. Of course if I remember correctly, the Yammie wouldn't do any OSD over HDMI, I had to switch to component.


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## Hakka (Sep 10, 2006)

The Denon 08 series should be out later this month. The 2808 and up will have onboard decoding for TrueHD and DTSHD master audio, I have not seen a HD player with onboard DTSHDma decoding.



















DENON AVR-3808CI $1,599.00 

Features and Specs
New front panel design, controls and lettering
Equal power amplifiers: 7-channel
Power output (watts per channel @ 8 ohms, 20hz to 20kHz): 130
All channels rated @ 0.05 THD
Low impedance drive capability
High-current/discrete amplifiers
Independent power transformers: 3
Dynamic Discrete Surround Circuit-HD
DSP Processors – Analog Devices, SHARC: ADSP 21366 x 1, 21367 x 1
Processor design: 32-bit floating point
Processor circuit sampling frequency: 192kHz
Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital+ Decoding, dts-HD Master Audio Decoding
THX Surround EX and Dolby Digital Surround EX decoding
Dolby Pro Logic IIx, with Cinema, Music and Game modes
dts ES Discrete 6.1 and dts ES Matrix 6.1 decoding
dts Neo:6 Stereo-to-Surround Cinema and Music modes
dts 96/24 5.1 for DVD-Video processing
HDCD Decoder
XM-HD 5.1 via Neural Surround decoding
Compressed Audio Restorer for portables/iPods/network audio
Audyssey MultiEQ XT auto setup calibration and room correction for 6 seating positions
Audyssey MultiEQ Pro calibration compatible – “Audyssey Installer Ready”
Auto setup microphone included: New Y/Alum type
AL24+ Processing on all channels
24-bit/192kHz DACs: 2-/8-channel PCM1791A
Analog-to-Digital conversion: 24/192 PCM1804
Variable High/Low Pass crossover points (12/24dB): 40/60/80/100/120/150/200/250
Assignable digital inputs
Digital input: DENON Link 3rd (PCM/DSD) compatible
iPod ready with a Denon D-dock
USB Port for portable music players/flash drives/HDD with command and control functionality
XM Satellite Radio ready – “Mini-Tuner” compatible
Multi-source/Zone discrete tuner select function – AM/FM/XM
HDMI 1.3a Repeater Inputs/Outputs – supports 1080p, 36-bit Deep Color, xvYCC Color Space, Auto Lip Sync correction, 7.1 uncompressed 24/96 Audio, SACD
Analog to HDMI Video Conversion/Scaling: 480p/720p/1080i/1080p
Faroudja DCDi Video Processing and Scaling (FLI02310)
Main Zone Video Encoder: Analog Devices ADV7320 12-bit
Main Zone Video Decoder: Analog Devices ADV7403 12-bit
NSV – Noise Shaped Video processing
Digital Inputs: 3 coaxial, 4 optical
Digital Outputs: 2 optical (assignable)
Digital-to-Analog REC Out
Analog Audio Inputs (including Tuner): 11
Phono Input
Analog Record Outputs: 3
Front Panel A/V Inputs w/Cover: Composite, S-Video and Optical
Independent Video Conversion: S-Video to Composite for Zone 2
Composite Video Inputs: 7
Composite Video Outputs: 3
S-Video Inputs: 7
S-Video Outputs: 3
Component Video Inputs x bandwidth (assignable): 3 x 100
Component Video Outputs (parallel main zone): 2
Discrete second zone Component Video Outputs
Dual surround mode speaker selector
All new Graphic User Interface (GUI)
RS-232 Port for third-party controllers and new Denon 2-way Remote Control and RF/IR Base Station
RJ-45 Ethernet Port: Third-party controllers, Mac/PC audio streaming, Internet radio and Web browser function, enhanced for WMA Lossless/AAC-iTunes and album art
PC setup and control capability via Ethernet
Remote/off-site diagnosis, correction, update and upgrade compatible
3-source, 3-zone capability
D/A conversion for multi-zone outputs (Optical, Coaxial and PCM signal only)
Discrete Multi-zone Video Outputs with OSD for Meta-data from iPod/XM/HD
Radio/Ethernet streaming: Composite
Enhanced Power Amplifier assign for multi-zone or bi-amping: 9 modes
Compatible with optional RC-7000/7001CI IR/RF 2-way Remote/Base Station
Dimensions (W x H x D): 17.1 x 6.7 x 16.9
Weight: 35.6


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## Pupton (Jul 15, 2006)

OK - this makes sense now - thanks!!!



Sonnie said:


> I think an example would be seeing the adjustments you make on the fly. Probably only an occasional thing for most folks. But if you are watching anything other than 480i, you'll have to stop it and switch to 480i... or possibly if you are not watching 480i, then you won't be able to use OSD at all.


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## HionHiFi (Feb 18, 2007)

I've owned the 661, and as was eluded to earlier, making adjustments on the fly are really only benefit of OSD, over HDMI. 

The Yamaha is superior to many AVR's due to the way it handles digital audio signals, and processes video. All very cleanly, and at a great price. 

I would have used the Yamaha as a Pre/Pro if it had OSD, over HDMI. So I may end up using a different receiver, or just wait for nicely priced pre/pro. 

The Denon 3808 seems to be a receiver to end all receivers, gosh how does Denon do it?


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## Pupton (Jul 15, 2006)

Hakka and Intel,

The Denon 08 series do look to be very intriguing,especially with the onboard decoding that could really future-proof for some time.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Does "Discrete Multi-zone Video Outputs with OSD for Meta-data from iPod/XM/HD" indicate OSD over HDMI for this 3808?

No doubt it would not only be a good pre-pro, but it would most likely be a good receiver period.


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

I was looking around at preamps to go with my system and was pretty disappointed. I currently use a Marantz SR-18 as a preamp (the amp section couldn't handle my 4 Ohm Magnepans).

I would love to get a dedicated preamp and move the Marantz to a music only (or casual, mostly music, room). But the only preamps that are a significant upgrade are the really expensive ones ($4k+).

The receivers really do seem to be the way to go for preamps, simply because they are ahead of the curve in features. If Outlaw would come up with an upgrade for the 990 that had HDMI switching and TrueHD, I'd be in line to get one.

Until then, I'm probably just going to wait and use the Marantz as long as I can.


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## rcarlton (Apr 29, 2006)

Went to a local Starpower today. Didn't have any preamps. Could order one:mooooh:. Only have receivers on sale:holycow:.


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## Pupton (Jul 15, 2006)

The new Integra DTC 9.8 is supposed to be out later this month - not sure how it will compare to the Denon 08 series?


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## Magyar (Feb 20, 2007)

Pupton said:


> The new Integra DTC 9.8 is supposed to be out later this month - not sure how it will compare to the Denon 08 series?


Quite favourably actually. It has a better video processor, and better audio DACS for the same dough, especially since you don't need amps built in. I have one on preorder.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2007)

Pupton said:


> On this same topic, maybe you (or anyone else) could smartened me up on something. I've been reading other posts where they state that some AVR's will only do OSD over HDMI at 480i (as apposed to 480p/720p/etc).... why would it be so important for the OSD to be progressive, if all you need it for is to make changes on the fly, etc.... I'm sure it's important, but I'm not getting it?
> 
> Thanks!


In my case, my TV won't receive 480i over HDMI. If I try to use one wire HDMI hookup to the TV, I can't see the OSD at all. I have to run another cable.


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## Hakka (Sep 10, 2006)

Magyar said:


> Quite favourably actually. It has a better video processor, and better audio DACS for the same dough, especially since you don't need amps built in. I have one on preorder.


I've been looking at the specs for the 9.8 and can't find anything on the DAC's apart from them being Burr Brown 192/24s. The Denon lists Burr Brown PCM 1791a 192/24. Just curious what better DACs the Integra uses.

What video processor does the Integra use?? Is it the Reon or the Realta? Both of them are considerably better than the DCDi on the Denon but I'm not convinced I would use it that much as the HDXE1 (HDXA2) has a Realta built in.

Hakka.


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## Magyar (Feb 20, 2007)

Hakka said:


> I've been looking at the specs for the 9.8 and can't find anything on the DAC's apart from them being Burr Brown 192/24s. The Denon lists Burr Brown PCM 1791a 192/24. Just curious what better DACs the Integra uses.
> 
> What video processor does the Integra use?? Is it the Reon or the Realta? Both of them are considerably better than the DCDi on the Denon but I'm not convinced I would use it that much as the HDXE1 (HDXA2) has a Realta built in.
> 
> Hakka.


BB 1796A and Reon VX for video.

This is a comparison between the Denon 4308 and Onkyo 905 receivers, which is technically is the same as the DTC 9.8 minus amps and with balanced outputs.



http://www.theosfiles.com/zzz/receiver_compare_905_vs_4308CI.html


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## RayJr (Jan 14, 2007)

Hakka said:


> The Denon 08 series should be out later this month. The 2808 and up will have onboard decoding for TrueHD and DTSHD master audio, I have not seen a HD player with onboard DTSHDma decoding.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here is a link to the Audyssey Dynamic EQ Press Release.pdf

I will be getting my Audyssey Custom installer kit , and I purchased the Denon 3808CI key. If you are in the Los Angeles area and want to activate this feature of you Receiver..contact me ..I will be able to help you out.


Later
RayJr


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## HionHiFi (Feb 18, 2007)

Now that I've lived with the Denon 3808ci, I have to give it the nod for best receiver to use a pre/pro. 

I was leaning heavily toward the Onkyo 875, but when I heard about whole Reon issue, I went for the Denon and never looked back. 

As a processor it has more features than most sub $5000 separates processors. Add to it the Audyssey Pro Installer setup, which the Onkyo's do not have, the choice becomes easier.


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## Hakka (Sep 10, 2006)

I was undecided but I am now leaning towards the Denon, Audyssey pro is a big plus - I will become a qualified Audyssey Pro installer. I have heard reports of synch issues when using Audyssey on the Onkyo, pops from speakers when locking onto a PCM source, Audyssey rolling off the sub 20hz bass. Is the Reon issue the one where it stretches 4:3 material??

The Denon is considerably more expensive than the Onkyo in Australia but I'm starting to think it is worth it.

What did you have before the Denon??

Hakka.


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## HionHiFi (Feb 18, 2007)

> Hakka.
> I was undecided but I am now leaning towards the Denon, Audyssey pro is a big plus - I will become a qualified Audyssey Pro installer.


Your right, it is a big plus. Audyssey sells their outbard processing box for $2500. The 3808ci, has the Pro Installer setup built in, all you have to buy is the Pro Installer Kit which is like $300, plus a $150 license, or key. So basically the kit is only $450-$500. 



> ...Audyssey rolling off the sub 20hz bass.


Not sure about this, I need to do a bit more research into that claim. 



> Is the Reon issue the one where it stretches 4:3 material??


Not sure I've heard about that issue, but I have heard that the Reon in the Onkyo's is "locked", and you can't use it to it's full potential. I believe I have heard reports that their are some Onkyo products that will have all the potential of the Reon chip exposed but what those products are I can't say. 



> The Denon is considerably more expensive than the Onkyo in Australia but I'm starting to think it is worth it.


The Onkyo 805, 875 are nice recievers. They were at the top of my list when I was looking, especially the 875, man is it packed with features. HQV Reon-VX, THX, Audyssey and Texas Instruments are hard to beat. 

The Denon 3808ci is no slouch, however, it has 1080p upconversion, and more detailed graphical user interface, and setup menus. It allows more detailed configuration of the you system. I haven't owned the Onkyo 875, I'm just reporting from what I've seen in manuals. 



> What did you have before the Denon??


I've owned many things. But recently I owned separates from Emotiva. They were the LMC-1 7.1 Processor, and the LPA-1 7-Channel Amplifier. Nice combo, but they had nowhere near the ease of use, features, and ergonomics of the Denon 3808ci.


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## Magyar (Feb 20, 2007)

intelonetwo said:


> Now that I've lived with the Denon 3808ci, I have to give it the nod for best receiver to use a pre/pro.
> 
> I was leaning heavily toward the Onkyo 875, but when I heard about whole Reon issue, I went for the Denon and never looked back.
> 
> As a processor it has more features than most sub $5000 separates processors. Add to it the Audyssey Pro Installer setup, which the Onkyo's do not have, the choice becomes easier.


What Reon issue? .............. and people with plasma and DLP tv's better stay away from Faroudja based VPs as they might see macroblocking. This is why I didn't go with the Denon. My Integra has the Reon VX and it has 0 issues.


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## Magyar (Feb 20, 2007)

> Not sure I've heard about that issue, but I have heard that the Reon in the Onkyo's is "locked", and you can't use it to it's full potential. I believe I have heard reports that their are some Onkyo products that will have all the potential of the Reon chip exposed but what those products are I can't say.


The Onk 905 has reon set up, as well the Integra 8.8 The Integra DTC 9.8 don't have the Reon menu, but it is and the DTR 8.8 is Audyessey Pro compatible.


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## HionHiFi (Feb 18, 2007)

> Magyar,
> What Reon issue? .............. and people with plasma and DLP tv's better stay away from Faroudja based VPs as they might see macroblocking. This is why I didn't go with the Denon. My Integra has the Reon VX and it has 0 issues.


Not sure it's an issue, but in some of the receivers and processor of Onkyo's the Reon is "unlocked", or the user has more control in varying degree's. It seems odd that the 905 has the Reon setup as you call it, but the dtc-9.8 doesn't since it is basically a 905 without amps. 

Hope this clears up the confusion. :bigsmile:


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