# Planning ahead for car system



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm thinking about doing a Shiva-X Gen.2 for when I get a car. Maybe 1.5cu.ft sealed with 1,000w. Or maybe 1.5 cu.ft ported to 26hz but I can't find a good port length to keep the airspeed down. Only problem is, I can't find a car audio amp that can put out 1,000w at 1 ohm for a decent price... Would you recommend a different driver for my application?

Basically, I have no idea what I need to get, as far as specific stuff. I know I would need a headunit, decent amp...etc... 
What all would you guys recommend for a headunit, speakers, sub, amp, capacitor (if needed),and whatever else I would need? I would like to keep the price as cheap as possible. Below $700 if possible? That seems pretty high to me, but for everything that I would need, maybe it is a realistic price.

Any help would be appreciated


----------



## Ryan Anderson (Jul 20, 2009)

A lot of amps will do 1000 @ 1 ohm. 1.5 cubes is small to tune to 26Hz, but anything is doable. Capacitors...never... upgrade to AGM batteries, make sure you have good wiring and do "The Big 3".


----------



## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

The Shiva is a great choice for car audio. I'd keep it sealed unless you are trying to build an SPL machine. Also, there is no reason to use 1000 watts unless you simply want to.... that being said, you cannot get that kind of "real" power cheaply. Is your $700 budget for everything? That might be tough...

The only head units I recommend these days are from Alpine or Eclipse. They offer the best combination of excellent sound quality and excellent reliability available today. Do not scrimp on your front main speakers: go shopping and listen to what's available and buy what you think sounds the best.


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

Ryan Anderson said:


> A lot of amps will do 1000 @ 1 ohm. 1.5 cubes is small to tune to 26Hz, but anything is doable. Capacitors...never... upgrade to AGM batteries, make sure you have good wiring and do "The Big 3".


What is The Big 3? And I figured that much too small for ported, but I just threw it out there...



dyohn said:


> The Shiva is a great choice for car audio. I'd keep it sealed unless you are trying to build an SPL machine. Also, there is no reason to use 1000 watts unless you simply want to.... that being said, you cannot get that kind of "real" power cheaply. Is your $700 budget for everything? That might be tough...
> 
> The only head units I recommend these days are from Alpine or Eclipse. They offer the best combination of excellent sound quality and excellent reliability available today. Do not scrimp on your front main speakers: go shopping and listen to what's available and buy what you think sounds the best.


I thought of going for 1,000w so I wouldn't be in danger of clipping the amp if I turn it up loud.
Would you recommend a specific Alpine or Eclipse HU, or are all of them pretty good?
Should I just use the HU to power the speakers, or find an amp that could power both the sub and the speakers?


----------



## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

The "Big 3" refers to upgrading the main power and ground cables in the vehicle. And don't neglect upgrading the alternator if you are adding large amplifiers as most modern OEM alts cannot handle the extra load. I wrote a Big 3 tutorial on my home forum, perhaps I can re post it here.

You really can't go wrong with any HU from Alpine or Eclipse, IMO. Choose the one that fits your budget best or that has the features you want. Also, there are several good quality 5-channel amps out there but none that will get you to 1KW of subwoofer power. You really do not need that kind of power unless you are competing. I have two Shivas in my home theater right now each powered by 250 watts and that is more than sufficient.


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

I know I don't need the power (sorta :R) I just don't want to clip the amp a lot and have to buy another one later because it wasn't enough. 
When you referred to the 5 channel amps, are you recommending that I run the speakers off of an amp rather than off of the HU?


----------



## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

You won't clip the amp (or any amp) if you set it up correctly.

Yes, if you want your main speakers to be able to "keep up" with a big subwoofer you'll need to use an amp. I recommend between 50 and 100 watts per channel. Most head units deliver no more than about 18 watts, by the way, even those that claim 50 watts.


----------



## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

This might help you with your Big 3 plan. http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/mobile-audio-discussion/24293-how-upgrade-big-three.html


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

How can you set up an amp so it won't clip?
And, what I'm kinda planning is, getting a single Shiva, and adding another at a later time, if I want to. So, if I got a 1,000w amp, I could possibly make it so each sub is seeing 500w, and keep the same amp. And, if I still want more (I doubt it) I could go and pick up another 1,000w amp for the second Shiva. 

Would a Shiva in a car be able to compare to a Mal-X in HT for music duties?


----------



## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

sub_junkie said:


> How can you set up an amp so it won't clip?
> And, what I'm kinda planning is, getting a single Shiva, and adding another at a later time, if I want to. So, if I got a 1,000w amp, I could possibly make it so each sub is seeing 500w, and keep the same amp. And, if I still want more (I doubt it) I could go and pick up another 1,000w amp for the second Shiva.
> 
> Would a Shiva in a car be able to compare to a Mal-X in HT for music duties?


You set up and amp so it won't clip by properly setting the gain. I have another tutorial about that I'll post later.

If you really want a 1000 watt amp that really puts out 1000 usable watts, you will have to spend $500 or more to get it. Look for amps from JL Audio, Alpine, Pioneer Premier, US Amps... look for an amp that is CEA rated at 1000 watts into your subwoofer load.

And no, a Shiva does not have the output capability of a Maelstrom. Two Shivas might be close to one 18" Maelstrom.


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

dyohn said:


> You set up and amp so it won't clip by properly setting the gain. I have another tutorial about that I'll post later.
> 
> If you really want a 1000 watt amp that really puts out 1000 usable watts, you will have to spend $500 or more to get it. Look for amps from JL Audio, Alpine, Pioneer Premier, US Amps... look for an amp that is CEA rated at 1000 watts into your subwoofer load.
> 
> And no, a Shiva does not have the output capability of a Maelstrom. Two Shivas might be close to one 18" Maelstrom.


Alright, I'll check into those companies and see what they have. Should I look for lower powered amps from them also?

What I meany by comparing the two subs, is if the Shiva is in a car, and if the Mal is in a home, and both are playing regular music, won't the Shiva be able to come close due to the 20dB gain that comes from cars?

And, I just had an idea...how about using Anarchy's for the speakers and adding a tweeter?? :spend:
It would definitely be quite expensive, but I bet it would sound pretty good :T


----------



## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

20db gain in a car? Where'd you get that?

Using Anarchy woofers in a car sounds like a great idea and it wouldn't be that expensive at all. Right now they are only $45 each which is far less than most good quality car audio woofers. The skill level that would be required is much higher because now you're talking about designing a crossover or using a bi-amp setup, but they should work well.


----------



## StereoClarity (Apr 22, 2008)

For 1000RMS at 1ohm I'd look into a Sundown SAZ-1000D amp. Just over $300 and those amps are built right.
http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/store/products/Sundown-Audio-SAZ%252d1000D.html

The Shiva X in a sealed box (for the car) would be the way to go IMO. The sub has some wild low end on it and in a car I don't think you'd need to port it unless you are going SPL crazy like David said.

20db of cabin gain at the lower octave isn't unheard of. Check this graph for transfer functions of different vehicles.


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

<Edited out>

I just found the picture. I don't know who did the testing, and what sub it was with, but it shows in-car, and in the house.










Quite a bit of difference.

That amp looks very convincing, Steven. I'll probably get that, and just a cheap Kicker or something to power the speakers. 
I think what I will do, is get some cheap Kicker speakers that I have hear at first, then add better ones later, or Anarchy's instead, if I can a crossover design when the time comes. 
Would you guys recommend putting the speakers in the doors, and just make a box and put it under the dashboard, kinda where your feet are? My brother-in-law's truck had this (the box went right on top of where the hump is in the floor for where the transmision goes.)


----------



## Ryan Anderson (Jul 20, 2009)

you can get 1000 watts super cheap, and in todays car audio setups I wouldnt run any less than that. BXi1610D can be had for $225 shipped and the dsc1500d for $230 shipped

-edit by mod -


----------



## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

Yes, a 20db in-car boost at certain frequencies is possible, of course. But it's not some sort of rule of thumb and that's what I was asking. 

Hifonics power ratings are not consistent and their distortion is much higher than listed. YMMV with them but I can't recommend them for anything other than a street-beater application.


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

dyohn said:


> Yes, a 20db in-car boost at certain frequencies is possible, of course. But it's not some sort of rule of thumb and that's what I was asking.
> 
> Hifonics power ratings are not consistent and their distortion is much higher than listed. YMMV with them but I can't recommend them for anything other than a street-beater application.


But, either way, a car should have cabin gain over a house, at least it seems like it would. 
I should probably Dynamat my car, right? Would you recommend something that would be cheaper than Dynamat?

Oh, and by the way, this system would probably go in a '68 Camaro :bigsmile:
My dad and I are going to restore (and some....) it sometime soon, Painting it candy apple red, sweet engine (over 400 horse most likely :T), custom heads, etc.


----------



## Ryan Anderson (Jul 20, 2009)

many hifonics amps have been benched, they do rated at 14.4 and distortion less than 1%


----------



## CasePro (Dec 23, 2009)

The sundown amp is great bang for the buck and built pretty well.

Zed audio also has a great new class D design that is great bang for the buck, albeit more expensive than the sundown.

Don't buy dynamat, it isn't the best buy performance vs price. I highly recommend you check out this site. Not only does he offer a great product, he gives the best advice for what makes sound deadeners work and how to use them properly. Most mfg out there tell you to cover everything and it simply is not needed. They only want to sell you more product. 

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi

I also use and highly recommend sound control products from Cascade Audio Engineering. I have used their products extensively in my install and they are great to work with and perform extremely well.


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

Alright then, I will get that stuff from sound deadener.com
Basically, the Shiva in 1.5 cubes with 1,000w should be able to smoke two Kicker COMP C10's in a 2 cube box with 200w, right?


----------



## CasePro (Dec 23, 2009)

I have not personally heard a Shiva, but based on reputation and specs I would say it is a great sub that is going to yield both excellent SQ and output. If you want to see what they look like theoretically, download WINISD (it's free) and model both subs. You can plug in the enclosure size and the power and overlay one graph over the other and see the difference. The program isn't going to show in-car response, which will be much much louder from 20 Hz to 100 Hz due to transfer function aka cabin gain.


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

I had actually already graphed them in WinISD, but I wanted to see if people's opinions would differ from what WinISD calculates.

I'm showing that the Shiva-X should be about 6dB louder at 30hz over the Kicker COMP 10's, 5dB louder at 40hz, about 2dB louder at 50hz, and 1-2dB more from 60hz to 100hz.


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

For now, I'll just make a 4.5 cu.ft sealed box for my Mal-X, and buy a amp. I found an amp for my friend that David said was decent and puts out 2,000w at 1 ohm, so I guess I'll get this one when the time comes:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_17762_MB+Quart+DSC+2000.1D+-DSC2000.1D-.html

One of my friends said that I would need 0 gauge wiring, a second battery, and maybe an alternator to run the 2,000w amp. Would you guys agree with this?
This would be pretty much a temporary set up; I would just put a Shiva and 1,000w amp in the 68 camaro as I don't want to be rattling it apart, breaking welds, etc...
Its just going to be a weekend driver. Hopefully I can buy something like a older F-150 and put the Mal-X in there. Only problem is I don't know where I could put a 4.5 cube box in the F-150. I don't want to take the back seats out of it either.


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

Any suggestions on where I could put a 4.5 cube box in a F-150? Hopefully I can just get a car because a box seems much easier to fit in a trunk if there is enough space available...


----------



## Ryan Anderson (Jul 20, 2009)

sub_junkie said:


> For now, I'll just make a 4.5 cu.ft sealed box for my Mal-X, and buy a amp. I found an amp for my friend that David said was decent and puts out 2,000w at 1 ohm, so I guess I'll get this one when the time comes:
> 
> http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_17762_MB+Quart+DSC+2000.1D+-DSC2000.1D-.html
> 
> ...


power is easy to come by in-car. double check with my buddy, see if he can match that price... he does swap out for new warranty I believe.

EDIT

took out email... saw the above mod edit, my bad


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

If I used 1.5 inch think MDF for the 4.5 cube sealed box, would I still need bracing?


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

Anyone? I would really like to cut out bracing to help cut on box size, but if 1.5" thick won't be as good as a braced box, then I will just go with bracing.


----------



## CasePro (Dec 23, 2009)

With a box of that size, you have dimensions that are large enough that there is a good chance that bracing is necessary. I have tried in the past to do things the easy way, only to find that I should have taken the time to do it right and do it once. I would go with internal bracing for sure. It isn't that much more work and you can rest assured that you are going to get a good result, rather than hoping that you will.


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

Alright, I will just do a 1.5" thick front baffel for the driver, and the rest will be 3/4", lined with open cell foam. 

This is the Head Unit that I am hoping to get sometime soon for my car

It's a little expensive, but will hopefully go down in price in some time. 
I heard these Speakers in one of my buddies' truck, and thought they sounded good:

I think I will power them with this Amp

For $113 shipped from Amazon, it seems like a pretty good deal. I could wire the two speakers in series and run the amp in bridged, right? They would be seeing 150w @ 4Ω bridged (with the speakers wired in series) according to the specs. I could get a wiring kit with the amp, which seems like it would be a good thing to get

Its This
with the amp for $133 for both of them or so. 

I might be able to buy like the speakers or Head unit this year, depending on what all I can do to earn money. But, I'm saving half of what I earn so I can actually buy a car to put this stuff in :T
Hopefully those items will stick around until I can get all of them. It seems like a pretty good setup to me. 
Would you guys change anything that I listed to get?


----------



## CasePro (Dec 23, 2009)

Why open cell foam inside the box? Open cell foam is a waste inside a sub cabinet. At the frequency band of a sub, the foam would have to be many, many times thicker (like a few feet) to absorb those frequencies. It is a matter of simple physics and the wavelength of the frequencies that you are trying to control. Brace the enclosure well and spend your money elsewhere, like on better mids and tweets.

There are a million options at the price range you have shown. I would personally go with looking for better equipment on the used market. At that price range the risk of having no warranty is outweighed by the fact you can get much better equipment for the cost.

The speakers that you choose are by far the most important part of the system. spend your money there.


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

Lining the inside of the box is a big thing back in the HT forum. It will just help absorb some of the frequencies, and not make the box sound as "boomy", if you want to put it like that. 
I would buy some used stuff, but it seems like on every deal that I had gotten on a used item, no matter what the feedback was on the person, I always wound up being screwed with a broken item. Wether it be a week, or a month, it seemed like everything was bound to break. Maybe its different with audio stuff though. 
I'll check around to see what kind of used stuff I can find.


----------



## CasePro (Dec 23, 2009)

I don't mean to poo poo on anyone's idea of how a sub box should be built, but scientific testing of closed cell foam for sound absorption, in a nutshell, says that the foam has to be of a thickness equal to or greater than the wavelength of the frequency that is targeted for absorption in order to be effective. How does that translate?

60 Hz sound wave = 226 inches long
100 Hz = 135 inches
1000 Hz = 13.5 inches
10,000 Hz = 1.35 inches (this is where your tweeter plays)

So, to effectively absorb 10 KHz you need a material that is 1.35 inches thick. To absorb 100 Hz, you need foam that is 135 inches thick.

Think about it. This is the reason why we can hear the guy with the crazy car subwoofer coming from an eighth mile away in our basement. Those low frequencies penetrate the walls of our homes which are stuffed with 4 inch thick insulation.

For a test, take the CCF that you would line the box with and play some music. Now place it over both of your ears (don't put your hands over your ears though). Hear any difference in the bass or midbass? Nope. Then it doesn't absorb those frequencies.


----------



## IDynamic (Nov 7, 2009)

I'll just throw this out there. On EBay you can still find the old school Xtant amplifiers cheap (sometimes still new in the box). IMO you just can't beat the soundQ of these amps.....


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

CasePro said:


> I don't mean to poo poo on anyone's idea of how a sub box should be built, but scientific testing of closed cell foam for sound absorption, in a nutshell, says that the foam has to be of a thickness equal to or greater than the wavelength of the frequency that is targeted for absorption in order to be effective. How does that translate?
> 
> 60 Hz sound wave = 226 inches long
> 100 Hz = 135 inches
> ...


As far as my understanding goes, we're not trying to absorb the frequencies, which would in turn cancel them out, but we are just trying to keep them from echoing off of this insides of the box. 
All I know is that with my box, with the foam, it made it sound cleaner, and not as boomy.


----------



## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

sub_junkie said:


> As far as my understanding goes, we're not trying to absorb the frequencies, which would in turn cancel them out, but we are just trying to keep them from echoing off of this insides of the box.
> All I know is that with my box, with the foam, it made it sound cleaner, and not as boomy.


Lining subs is supposed to damp the backwave and stop the sub from "ringing" or sounding "boomy" as Dylan pointed out. Whether or not open cell foam is effective is a debatable issue. I tried it on two identical subs, one lined, one unlined and I can hear a difference.


----------



## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

The only way you can get a 4 1/2cft box in your truck is to remove the back seat or put it on top of the seat, this is if the truck is an extra cab, for the inside I would do the Sonic Barrier from parts-express.












Do the speakers on the door they will sound better. this will give you more left and right defenition on your music, that's if you can hear them over the sub:bigsmile: 

You dont need to double the front of the box unless you are doing a spl box, do more braces instead.
The wire kit needs to be bigger if you hooking both amps, need at least 2 gauge.

To set the amp where it will not clip you need an oscilloscope to be able to see when the signal is clipping or you can do it by ear but a lot of people cant hear the distortion:whistling: 


What kind of music do you listen to???


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

Rodny Alvarez said:


> The only way you can get a 4 1/2cft box in your truck is to remove the back seat or put it on top of the seat, this is if the truck is an extra cab, for the inside I would do the Sonic Barrier from parts-express.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mostly listen to stuff like Breaking Benjamin, Mudvayne, Mushroom Head (some songs), some Kottonmouth Kings (mostly as a test), stuff like that.

I will look into that foam that you talked about. It looks pretty promising. :T


----------



## CasePro (Dec 23, 2009)

where are you suggesting that foam be installed? If that foam holds water, you don't want to put it inside the door. 

To stop vibration in the door, you need to use a constrained layer dampener on the door skin. This helps to stop the metal from vibrating. There are two types, foil backed types that use the metal foil as a constraining layer (couples to the metal and changes the resonant frequency. The other type uses viscoelastic material and turns it into low level heat.

Sonic barrier appears to be neither of these. I have not looked at the specs, but it appears to be some sort of thin high mass material coupled to foam substrate. This might be similar to mass loaded vinyl and closed cell foam. The mass loaded vinyl blocks noise from on area to the other. In the car, you would often use it to completely cover the floor and the firewall. You put the foam down first, then the mass loaded vinyl over top of it, both under your carpet. It is strictly a noise barrier that prevents air and structure borne noise from getting inside the cabin.

I used CCF and MLV on my install and they significantly lowered the noise floor at highway speeds. They are MUCH MUCH more effective at lowering road noise and allowing your to hear your system than a CLD like Dynamat. I realize that this goes against all of the marketing hype and what most people are doing in their cars, but the fact is that CCF and MLV will work better at blocking noise than several layers of Dynamat or Dm equivalent. Don't buy the hype, go with what actually works.

The second major cause of noise from your doors is the plastic door car vibrating against the metal door skin. Using a thin closed cell foam between the door card and the door skink will go a long way towards helping you out there.


----------



## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

CasePro said:


> where are you suggesting that foam be installed?
> .


Thats for the inside of the box not the car!


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

Would it sound the same in a car as in a Home Theater if I ported the box to 14hz as mine is right now? What I mean is if I put my current box in a car, and played Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, would the low 16hz tones, and lower sound the same? Would the car have a more flat response, or would the low bass just dissipate through the car and go somewhere else?


----------



## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

No, a subwoofer system will not sound the same in a car as it does in a room. The car will cause unnatural boost in its resonance frequency band (usually 30-60Hz. Look up "cabin gain" or "transfer function") and the very low frequency will likely be lost, especially when the vehicle is moving.


----------



## Ryan Anderson (Jul 20, 2009)

sub_junkie said:


> Would it sound the same in a car as in a Home Theater if I ported the box to 14hz as mine is right now? What I mean is if I put my current box in a car, and played Toccata and Fugue in D Minor, would the low 16hz tones, and lower sound the same? Would the car have a more flat response, or would the low bass just dissipate through the car and go somewhere else?


If you tune that low and play music with content at that tuning you will SLAUGHTER them compared to home. How do I know? I do it. Cabin gain > room gain.


----------



## Ryan Anderson (Jul 20, 2009)

dyohn said:


> No, a subwoofer system will not sound the same in a car as it does in a room. The car will cause unnatural boost in its resonance frequency band (usually 30-60Hz. Look up "cabin gain" or "transfer function") and the very low frequency will likely be lost, especially when the vehicle is moving.


yes you will get more boost, but 30-60 is incorrect... it is generally a 12dB slope starting around 60Hz... the gain continues down past 30Hz so at 15Hz it'll add aprox another 12dB another at 8Hz and so on. Low frequency will not be lost, moving or not. Going down the interstate with the windows down can/will cause cancellation as the windows and cabin act as a helmhertz resonator, but the bass doesn't just disappear from bing in car... it is actually more contained hence the cabin gain, and driving doesn't "outrun" the bass... less you hit mach 1 hehe jk!


----------



## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

I might just have to experiment with low porting just to see what it would sound like in a car. I could just put my current box in a car and try it :bigsmile: All I would have to do, is take my receiver and front speakers out of my room, my EP2500 and pre amp, and put all that in a car (or truck) and set the sub in there also...now I really want to try it... :T


----------

