# Free Trade agreement between Canada and the US



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

So, I have been doing some digging over the past while and today ironically one of our main TV networks ran a story about that very subject.

Apparently it is illegal to refuse to sell and ship items to Canadians from the US. I know many on line retailers wont sell or ship to Canadians because manufacturers have told them not to. 
Canadians pay as much as 25% more for everything from Electronics to Cars and its time to start making some noise. The Free trade act clearly prohibits the refusal to do this. That includes Amazon.com and other sites.


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## JQueen (Jan 11, 2012)

Good news for you guys... Save some money for more gear


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The challenge is to get the manufacturers like Onkyo USA to lift there ban on selling to Canadians from US sites.


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## JQueen (Jan 11, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> The challenge is to get the manufacturers like Onkyo USA to lift there ban on selling to Canadians from US sites.


If more people learn about this law and these bigger companies refuse to abide it could turn into law suits


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Im very curious where the receivers that are refurbished go that are in Canada. I would be surprised that Receivers and other electronics that need repairs would get shipped back to the US before they get repaired and then sold again? That cant be cost effective.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

I wonder how much of the issue is due to the hassle of shipping. I tried sending one package via FedEx from the US to Canada and it was a real pain in the neck. The forms, paperwork and information you need to provide almost made it not worth the hassle. Companies probably have it easier, but I suspect even then it's not without problems. Perhaps that's the real impediment; red tape.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I dont think so at all, Given in the one company that I recommend often to buy from they do ship many items to us just not certain brands.


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Get'em Tony! addle:

:demon:


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> So, I have been doing some digging over the past while and today ironically one of our main TV networks ran a story about that very subject.
> 
> Apparently it is illegal to refuse to sell and ship items to Canadians from the US. I know many on line retailers wont sell or ship to Canadians because manufacturers have told them not to.
> Canadians pay as much as 25% more for everything from Electronics to Cars and its time to start making some noise. The Free trade act clearly prohibits the refusal to do this. That includes Amazon.com and other sites.


Where do you find this in the NAFTA? A dealer can decide where and to whom he will ship his goods and manufacturers can target products for specific markets. This has been upheld in the courts in this country. 

When the Canadian dollar was weak a couple of years ago there was an exchange rate issue, and pricing is different on many products due to volumes and marketing agreements, but I don't think the trad agreements address that, nor should they. The address tariffs, dispute resolution, etc, but they don't tell anyone who they have to sell to nor at what price.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

The problem with buying from the U.S. is the shipping cost. FedEx and UPS charge ridiculous brokerage charges, that would pretty well eat up the 25% savings in the purchase price.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ive never payed more than about $54 brokerage fees and then GST on top of that on several hundred dollar items. Its actually not as bad as it seems to be.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

lcaillo said:


> Where do you find this in the NAFTA? A dealer can decide where and to whom he will ship his goods and manufacturers can target products for specific markets. This has been upheld in the courts in this country.


Im waiting on an answer to clarify that now, I have emailed the Canadian Government office that handles that area. However it was brought up on the national news today and I talked to a friend in the government here and he also says that they cant refuse a sale to a Canadian.


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## Nitrofreakman (Feb 18, 2013)

Wow..I never heard that before, and I hope it's true. Do you think that this apply to eBay also ? There's nothing more annoying than finding an item you want and the seller refuses to ship to Canada, especially when you can't find the item locally. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread..thanks for sharing this tidbit.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I think private sales they can do what they want, I have not heard back from the government office I emailed (no surprise there) but it seems to be getting some media attention now.
This story was on the news last week about car delerships in the US being told not to sell to Canadians but is illegal to do .


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Hey Tony, this is an interesting topic. I suspect politics plays a big role. Have you considered/interested in becoming a reseller for Onkyo or know somebody that might? Many companies sell overseas, it is in their best interest, maybe contact them & find out what the impediments are (again, I supect Canadian politics are the big player).


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

I have been close to several lawsuits on the matter and the US courts have repeatedly ruled that manufacturers can enforce restrictions on territory. Unless the practice effects some monopolistic position for the manufacturer, it is not considered anti-competitive. Because there are other dealers in Canada, there is competition. By protecting dealers, competition among brands is actually enhanced and consumers benefit. I can find nothing in the free trade agreements that change this. Businesses can choose to whom they want to sell or not, with very few restrictions on that freedom.


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## Nitrofreakman (Feb 18, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> I think private sales they can do what they want, I have not heard back from the government office I emailed (no surprise there) but it seems to be getting some media attention now.
> This story was on the news last week about car delerships in the US being told not to sell to Canadians but is illegal to do .


Ya, I'm not shocked that you never heard back from our caring government..common sense and efficiency aren't the high points of our current 'Leader'. 

I was more curious about the sellers on eBay that have eBay Shops, apologies, I should have been more clear. 

I'm going to check that link out right now..thanks


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Well, Believe it or not the government office got back to me. Here is what they said

_"Most trade in North America is governed by the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) which has led to the elimination of barriers to trade and facilitated cross-border movement of goods and services between Canada, the United States and Mexico. The NAFTA is a great success story and has provided a business environment in which investment and commerce help secure long-term economic growth for its partners, including Canada. As such, businesses operate within a predictable, rules-based framework allowing commerce to flow unimpeded. 

Within this framework, businesses develop their own strategies and make commercial decisions which they deem in their best interest in a North American context, including decisions with regard to where and to whom they choose to sell their product. As such, whether retailers choose to sell across the border or to Canadians is purely a commercial decision and not within the scope of the NAFTA or trade agreements writ large. 

I would like to bring to your attention a report by the Standing Committee on National Finance published on February 6, 2013 on the subject of the Canada-U.S. price gap. Many of the issues explored in the report are similar to those expressed in your correspondence. A copy of the report is available on the committee’s website at the following web address:"_
http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/SEN/Committee/411/NFFN/rep/rep16feb13-e.pdf.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Guess we have to ask Onkyo why this is their policy


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## phillihp23 (Mar 14, 2012)

Why would one think that because a product is available somewhere in the world that the seller (private or commercial) would have to sell it to them regardless of the territory (country) the purchaser is in ?


This ideology does not make any sense to me. Entering into cross state line trade, international trade, or 
in-sate trade are all completely differant business models (to include regulations and reporting requirements). 

Now if the business module you have is creating a monopoly or infringing on a competitive environment then I expect that some regulators may step in, may it be state or federal.

And this idea that someone selling something shouldnt be able to refuse an international buyer....please....!
Products and services are released in specific countries all the time. And some products are not sold to some countries due to, shall we say ......technilogical theft and copyright issues known to occur.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Just remember that Canada and the United states might as well be the same as we share so much of the same products and even services. Even our exchange rate has been on pare for a couple of years now. Im not talking overseas or even Mexico I cant think of one electronics product model or even automobile that we cant get that you have and vice versa. The price difference between what we pay and you is still ridiculous.


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## phillihp23 (Mar 14, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> I think private sales they can do what they want, I have not heard back from the government office I emailed (no surprise there) but it seems to be getting some media attention now.
> This story was on the news last week about car delerships in the US being told not to sell to Canadians but is illegal to do .


I read the article and that does seem a bit shady. 
I do think the issue being discussed on the forum here is differant though.
The car dealer is not conducting international trade if he is selling the car outright for cash to a person in the U.s. regardless of there citizenship. The individual will actually be importing the vehicle to Canada. 

I think there is a clear differance between someone going to a garage sale/U.S. Store and buying something and someone buying something from ebay/or an online store located in another country.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Just to give you an example, My Onkyo 805 I bought from the US on eBay just over 5 years ago when our $$ was worth 14cents more than yours. I payed $750 CAD including shipping taxes and Brokerage fees. Here in Canada it would have cost me more than $1900 for the same unit. Where does that make any sense?


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## phillihp23 (Mar 14, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> Just remember that Canada and the United states might as well be the same as we share so much of the same products and even services. Even our exchange rate has been on pare for a couple of years now. Im not talking overseas or even Mexico I cant think of one electronics product model or even automobile that we cant get that you have and vice versa. The price difference between what we pay and you is still ridiculous.


It is odd. It makes me recall a conversation with a Chinese national. The individual said they were going to Best Buy to get a computer. I said, wouldn't it be cheaper in china as they are mostly made in china. The individual stated "no", and the quality control for the ones made for U.S. sale is a lot higher.

And no offense but, no matter how alike or geographically close two countries are, they are still two differant countries. Differant politics, differant governments etc.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

TV wrote:


> Here in Canada it would have cost me more than $1900 for the same unit


I'd ask the dealor for an explanation for where the extra money goes. Tarrifs/duties/???


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Im sure most of it is simply markup. Onkyo Canada sets the price as to what thay are sold for and because Canadians as a general rule dont complain much and our population is smaller spread over a larger area we just accept it for the most part. I just know that cross boarder shopping is a huge thing here for those of us who live close enough to do it. Sadly Im nearly 10hrs drive away (one way) from any large US city that I could go to to get any deals.


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## vann_d (Apr 7, 2009)

Hey Man, sorry you guys get a bum deal. One of the biggest benefits of living in the United States is the price of consumer goods. It's unfortunate that our nearest friends don't benefit from the same luxury.


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