# Advice for $1,000 HT for narrow room



## Gobucks (Apr 17, 2012)

I am about to start the process of gutting a side porch room to turn it into a home theater / computer room. The dimensions are funky: the whole room is 20' long by about 8'6" wide and only 7'8" high. There are three windows evenly spaced along one of the long walls, and the door into the room is on the opposite wall near the end. I plan to set up the TV and HT along the short wall at the other end of the room and the computer on the short wall at the opposite end of the room. So the HT portion of the room will probably be more like 12' x 8'6"

Budget is about $1,000 for the HT. I currently have a five year-old 42" panasonic 720p plasma TV that I might be able to get authorization to replace (perhaps up to another $1,000). The intended uses will be watching cable tv (hd channels from Time Warner), dvds and bluray movies, netflix movies, xbox 360 and PS3 gaming, and I will connect the computer to TV and HT as well for music, videos, photos. So . . . .

TV - given the dimensions of my space and budget, any recommendations for size and type of HDTV that would be optimal.

HT - given dimensions and budget, recommendations on way to go there. One thing I would like to do is in-wall speakers to the extent possible (wife hates to see wires and will help me "sell" the replacement of my old Yamaha 5.1 HTIB). I will have access to everything and will drywall the whole space, so it will be easy to plan for in-wall and in-ceiling speakers if that is the way to go.

Go bucks


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Welcome to Home Theater Shack, great to have you with us.

I love my Sony 46". Its LCD so gaming burn-in will never be a concern like you might have with a plasma. 

$600 shipped, can we convince you to apply the remaining $400 towards your audio budget of $1000?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B004HYG9TG/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

Cant really help with in-wall speakers, no experience with them. Hopefully someone will have good recommendations on those.



Its easy to recommend accessories for less, great service and good prices on a refurb avr. I love the sound of Marantz, and their slimline seems like a good value, but take a look at all the a4l offerings... 

http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...iver/Home-Audio/Home-Theater-Receivers/1.html


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## Gobucks (Apr 17, 2012)

Thanks for the advice. Couple follow-ups. On the TV, I should probably clarify that there will not be that much gaming done on it, so I am not as concerned about burn-in. Is it fair to say that given the narrowness of the room that LCD is a good option because I will not have extreme viewing angles? And given the narrowness of the room and how relatively close the seating will be, is there a TV size beyond which I should not go?

As for the audio side, I am not wedded to in-wall and in-ceiling. I am fascinated by the concept and it's neat look, but I have no idea whether that comes at the cost of quality. Could I build in to the walls spaces to hold speakers, or will that negatively affect the sound quality?

I did not know anything about the AVR, so now that I have looked a little I am really excited about the options, like the ability to run a network cable directly into the receiver, connect iPods through it, connect the computer to it, etc. I had looked at a couple Onkyos, but The Marantz NR1602 looks like it has some features that comparable Onkyos lack. If I went with the Marantz, how would you spend the other $600 on speakers?


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Funny you should mention viewing angles, pro reviewers (IIRC it was cnet) had found the specific model I own, and recommended, to have unusually poor viewing angles even for an LCD. Personally, I think poor viewing angles are an over-rated short-coming of LCD flat panels. Laptop screens, ok yeah, their displays tilt and an LCD can be bothersome in _some_ applications, I look forward to the day when OLED is commonplace for most all hand-held displays. But when it comes to TVs I think the key word is "extreme" viewing angles and that is probably not something you will experience in a living room environment as much as you might in other environments or applications. 

All that having been said, I more recommended LCD based on price-per-inch and for uses that tend to be displayed static and long-term like, "xbox 360 and PS3 gaming, and I will connect the computer to TV" that you mentioned in your first post. The general rule-of-thumb for seating distance is 2" for every 1" of screen area, so the recommend seating distance for a 46" TV is 92". 

If burn-in is not a concern then you might want to ask around in the displays area and see what is recommended in the way of plasma. My plasma shopping late this last year was abruptly cut short by my initial plasma purchase having fluctuating brightness out-of-the-box, and then coming to find it was an extremely common problem with most all of last years models. What made me mad was rather than issuing a recall manufactures opted to inconvenience customers instead. For all I know this prominent problem has already been solved with this years models but it turned me off so bad to plasma that I immediately started looking at non-plasma makers (specifically Sony).

Its nice to hear you are not wed to in-wall. Again I dont know much about them but, yes, I have heard in-walls will usually sacrifice performance over a traditional speaker.

People seem very pleased with the Martin Logan set, I like it because it even includes a sub woofer. Take a look at the reviews on amazon. Since this set will bring you in under budget you might want to spend more on a more powerful AVR. The set should be fairly easy to power but a more powerful AVR is always advisable if your budget permits.

Folks like the Pioneers also. Adding a subwoofer might push you over budget tho.


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## Gobucks (Apr 17, 2012)

Thanks again for the quick reply. The Martin Logans look very nice, and Newegg just had the set for $300 but it is now sold out. And the recommendation to concentrate on the AVR seems pretty sound. I looked through the a4l listings and liked the Marantz NR1602 - anything else I should be considering in that price range?


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Marantz SR5006, more power and assuming it has the features you are looking for.

http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...V-Receiver-with-Networking-and-AirPlay/1.html


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

In a narrow room like that, consider the CHT SHO 10 speakers.

THis will minimize the earliest of reflections.


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## Timoteo (Jan 7, 2012)

With that low of a budget I would for sure concentrate on 3 speakers up front & a subwoofer.

For killer performance per dollar look at the HSU Research bookshelf speakers at $150ea. That's $450 for the front 3. Then get a used AVR online for $150. Then get the Premiere Acoustics PA-150 sub for $379. It's a monster 15" ported sub that will destroy! 

For $1000 you would have a seriously great sounding system!!

Down the road you could buy the HSU dedicated center channel for $250 & another bookshelf. This would give you a complete 5.1 surround sound system. Believe me, those bookshelfs are unbeatable for the price!!! I've listened to them a few times in HSU's demo room. Each time I just shake my head because they sound way better then they have the right to for $150.

Hope this helps!!


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## rlc51 (Mar 10, 2012)

In a room with those dimensions I would make sure I would be using Bipole or dipole speakers for my surround sides. They will have the effect of filling the room and making the room sound BIGGER as in a bigger sound stage as if the 8.6 walls were pushed out to 15ft. If it is allowed then my suggestion at this price range (low budget but still good sound) I have found an online only retailer that also sell through ebay. The name of this retailer is STREEM. If you win some bids on ebay you will be surprised what you can land and the sound will amaze you.+ win some bids and you can get Streem fs808 for $315 pr + sr 490 bipole for $160 pr + cv 525 center for $110. Find a sub at your price, you may already have one. This is MY opinion on one of the best sounding speakers for the lowest pricing I have seen and heard. No one is saying these are worth $10,000. But if you win those bids you will be shocked at what you got for the price you paid.
by the way for those that might respond that these might be white van speakers, THEY ARE NOT!!! I do NOT work for these guys. My original speakers were all Fluance and these Streem's just blow the Fluance away. It's simply not the same class of speakers at all.


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## NegativeEntropy (Apr 22, 2009)

Gobucks,

I know you listed the likely portion of the room that will be used for HT - but does that 12' figure mean that's your seating location? Distance from the screen and resolution dictate the optimal screen size. By indicating 360/PS3 and blu-ray you have told us 1080p is your resolution.

For example, with a 50" screen the SMPTE longet recommended viewing distance is 6.8' (for a theater like experience). This is also close to the ideal based on 20/20 visual acuity for a screen that size and resolution. I use a 720p screen in my living room because at our seating distance (12'), my eyes cannot tell a difference between a 720p and 1080p 50" screen.

Do you have good light control? One of the typical advantages of LCD over plasma is a brighter image at good image quality (i.e. no "dynamic" mode with crazy colors). With 3 windows, unless you have "blackout" curtains or those windows face north with regular curtains, I'd be concerned about image brightness for daytime viewing. 

If you have good light control, my personal preference is plasma image quality, but my last thorough research was 2 years ago.

I also know some have complained about input lag with some TVs causing a problem for gaming. I suggest evaluating this (i.e. try to find reviews that look at this) for any set you are considering.

Speakers: I have also heard that in wall speakers typically sound poorer per $ than "regular" speakers. This makes sense based on the physics - speaker drivers are very sensitive to enclosure size/construction and in wall speakers necessarily compromise this.


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## Gobucks (Apr 17, 2012)

Wow, so much to consider. Here's what I am thinking now.

TV - As was just pointed out, I am concerned about viewing distance. I just made a rough measurement on how far away from the TV I will be, and I am guessing between 9 and 10'. So even though I would love to go to a 47 or 50" 1080p, I don't know if I will be able to notice a difference. I can control the light somewhat as the windows do face north and I will do some kind of curtains.

Audio - I am convinced that I should spend as much as possible on the AVR, and I am now leaning toward the Onkyo TX-NR709, which does not leave me much for the speakers. Based on my own personal preferences (unlearned as they are), my priorities will be in this order: center, fronts, sub, surrounds. So I am wondering if I should just get a package like the Martin Logan MLT-1 or MLT-2 (right now about $150 difference between them) or something like what was recommended above where I get a center and fronts (maybe The HSU Research) and add other components later. If I am spending $430 on the AVR, what's the best use of the remaining $500 or so - just get the Martin Logan set or piece out fewer but nicer components like the center and fronts? Keep in mind that I am not an audiophile and I am not really going to be allowed to crank the volume anyway.

Thanks again for all of the input.


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Gobucks said:


> Wow, so much to consider. Here's what I am thinking now.
> 
> TV - As was just pointed out, I am concerned about viewing distance. I just made a rough measurement on how far away from the TV I will be, and I am guessing between 9 and 10'. So even though I would love to go to a 47 or 50" 1080p, I don't know if I will be able to notice a difference. I can control the light somewhat as the windows do face north and I will do some kind of curtains.
> 
> ...



Hey Buck, the Onkyo 709 is a very good choice, it is a feature laiden network receiver with a very good amp section and Multi EQ XT and has preouts if you ever plan on expanding your setup. I would definitely concentrate on your front stage (LCR) for now, you could always add surrounds and a sub when funds are available. I strongly suggest the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170's for LCR, having three identical speakers upfront is an ideal situation. You can get the three 170's for about $550 with shipping. You can contact Dave or Dina at Ascends, they may be willing to negotiate with you, QC and customer service is second to none. The 170's entend down to 53Hz + - 3dB, very easy to drive at 91dB sensitivity, they sound much bigger than they should and would fill your space. You can get the HTM-200's for surrounds when your budget allows or a decent sub next. These are only suggestions, but I can attest to the 170's ability to present a wide and deep soundstage, I use them in another setup. I hope this helps, start slow and build when your funds allow. Take care.
Jeff


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## Timoteo (Jan 7, 2012)

Let's keep things simple guys!! This is obviously a newcomer to home theater. Let's not get into terms that are more confusing than helpful. Bidding!?...not sure that's a good idea. He wants suggestions on speakers he can readily get. Sorry but Fluance is not a speaker that is hard to beat, so saying those speakers better than Fluance isn't saying much. I'm not trying to be mean or attacking you directly I'm just being honest. I want the OP to get good advice & help him get the most for his money!!


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## NegativeEntropy (Apr 22, 2009)

From 9 or 10' viewing distance at 50" screen size you will likely be unable to tell a difference between 720P and 1080P. That said, the price difference between the two has been shrinking in the last few years - if you are likely to sit closer some of the time (when gaming?), keep that in mind.

I'll second the recommendation for Ascend Acoustics speakers. In my living room I have a pair of their HTM-200 speakers as I'm very space limited. My multipurpose/theater room has the 170s for surrounds. I'd recommend the 170s for your mains if you're not going to get a sub immediately as the HTMs do not go very deep.

The 709 is an excellent receiver (it's what I have in my theater) for its price. It'll have plenty of volume for the space, even with small bookshelves. At 10' with a pair of 170s will hit peaks of around 104 db SPL - plenty loud for 95% of us. I have not counted your HDMI connections - but it should have enough.


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

NegativeEntropy said:


> From 9 or 10' viewing distance at 50" screen size you will likely be unable to tell a difference between 720P and 1080P. That said, the price difference between the two has been shrinking in the last few years - if you are likely to sit closer some of the time (when gaming?), keep that in mind.
> 
> I'll second the recommendation for Ascend Acoustics speakers. In my living room I have a pair of their HTM-200 speakers as I'm very space limited. My multipurpose/theater room has the 170s for surrounds. I'd recommend the 170s for your mains if you're not going to get a sub immediately as the HTMs do not go very deep.
> 
> The 709 is an excellent receiver (it's what I have in my theater) for its price. It'll have plenty of volume for the space, even with small bookshelves. At 10' with a pair of 170s will hit peaks of around 104 db SPL - plenty loud for 95% of us. I have not counted your HDMI connections - but it should have enough.


Ryan, I agree the price difference between 720 and 1080p is diminishing, 2011 models can be had on the cheap right now for the OP. I think the 170's up front LCR would be ideal for his situation and should fill his space quite nice along with the Onkyo 709 driving them, and this is right on with his budget. I hope he chimes in to see where he is at this point. I know for me good sound makes my display look better.


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## Gobucks (Apr 17, 2012)

I am very tempted to go with a cheaper solution that gets it done now, like the MLT-2 set. But it looks like the more considered opinions here are telling me to go with the Ascend 170's LCR. So if I am watching a movie with the Onkyo 709 and the three 170's, that will sound better than the full set of MLT-2's? Will the lack of a sub and surrounds be noticeable, or are the 170's so good that I will not notice?

And if I go with the Ascend, should I try to stretch and get 2 170's and a CMT-340 for the center, or is that not an appropriate fit?


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

The lower end will be a significant loss. Ascend 170s published bottom end is 58Hz, the 340 is 48Hz. Whereas the Martin Logans reach down to 32 Hz and for cheaper. Dont see "room filling" being a challenge, and I think youd be happy with either choice in that regard, but I would still seek the best frequency response I could muster for my budget.


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

TypeA said:


> The lower end will be a significant loss. Ascend 170s published bottom end is 58Hz, the 340 is 48Hz. Whereas the Martin Logans reach down to 32 Hz and for cheaper. Dont see "room filling" being a challenge, and I think youd be happy with either choice in that regard, but I would still seek the best frequency response I could muster for my budget.


Ty, a significant loss, the Martin Logan sub has a frequency response specified at 37-200 Hz, they advertize this system as having this frequency response, seems to me they are selling a subwoofer, and the sat's 110-20000 Hz weighing in at 3.4 lbs.... I believe the OP would out grow this setup rather quickly. If I was just starting out I could easily live with 48 and 58 Hz extension without a sub for a little more $ and build on that when funds become available. I'm not bashing ML, please don't take it that way, it's just very apparent the target market that ML is striving to reach. I don't think the OP is looking so much for cheaper extension but rather a more affordable quality alternative. With the 170's as mains and the 340 center, down the road he could swap the 170's for surrounds and get two more 340's as mains and have a complete tonally and timbre matched setup driven easily with the Onkyo 709. This is just my opinion and suggestion, nothing is written in stone. I don't know if there is any credence to this but I read that ML does not make the MLT line, thay are out sourced and ML puts their name on them and production of the line is over. No offense intended with this post my friend, just lively interaction.
Jeff


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Youre right, the system is rated to 37 Hz and not 32 Hz, thats what i get for trusting amazon specs. :duh:

Your suggestion is a good one assuming more $$$ is spent in the future.


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## Gobucks (Apr 17, 2012)

In light of some recent developments, we should assume that I will not be able to spend any money in the near future for more speakers. As it is, I fear I am overstepping my budget and if my little HT operation and its costs are discovered by the boss (my wife), I could be in some trouble. Still committed to the Onkyo 709, but my budget for speakers is going to be limited. 400ish is about all I am willing to risk in this operation for the speakers. So assume now that is all you had to play with to go with the Onkyo 709, what would you do? I am open to getting used speakers if anyone has recommendations.


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## Gobucks (Apr 17, 2012)

Here's a local craigslist ad for a set of JBL speakers described as: 2 hls610 front speakers each has 6.5 inch woofer with horn tweeter 150 watts each....2 rear speakers have 4 inch woofers with the horn tweeters 100 watts each....center chanel features 2 5.5 inch woofers as well as horn tweeter 200 watts.

The seller claims the set cost him $800 and he is selling for $225. http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ele/2981270058.html

What do you think?


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Gobucks said:


> Here's a local craigslist ad for a set of JBL speakers described as: 2 hls610 front speakers each has 6.5 inch woofer with horn tweeter 150 watts each....2 rear speakers have 4 inch woofers with the horn tweeters 100 watts each....center chanel features 2 5.5 inch woofers as well as horn tweeter 200 watts.
> 
> The seller claims the set cost him $800 and he is selling for $225. http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ele/2981270058.html
> 
> What do you think?


Personally I don't think these have very high WAF, take a look at the Energy Take Classic 5.1 speaker system $399 at Newegg, Crutchfield or Amazon, Newegg has the Energy Take 5 system without sub for $299 but with promo code till 04/30 EMCNFHF98 cost $149, you could buy a sub later. Also you may want to consider the Onkyo TX-NR609 and you will be able to spend a little more on the sub if you decide on the Newegg offer available till April 30th or until stock is gone.
Jeff


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## Gobucks (Apr 17, 2012)

Would you recommend the Energy Take Classics over the MLT-2 system?

http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-MLT-2-Theater-System-Black/dp/B0049P2000/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335495011&sr=8-1


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## Wazzul (Apr 21, 2012)

Gobucks said:


> In light of some recent developments, we should assume that I will not be able to spend any money in the near future for more speakers. As it is, I fear I am overstepping my budget and if my little HT operation and its costs are discovered by the boss (my wife), I could be in some trouble. Still committed to the Onkyo 709, but my budget for speakers is going to be limited. 400ish is about all I am willing to risk in this operation for the speakers. So assume now that is all you had to play with to go with the Onkyo 709, what would you do? I am open to getting used speakers if anyone has recommendations.


You should be happy with the 709, it's plenty of power for the type of room and speakers your looking at.
I love Onkyo and the extra features you don't get with other receivers. I use the Onktroller app with a wireless speaker hooked up to zone 2 for an outdoor speaker (def tech $89) scored a ton of points with the wife and in turn she agreed to let me spend a little more in the theater. Just a thought.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Gobucks said:


> Would you recommend the Energy Take Classics over the MLT-2 system?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-MLT-2-Theater-System-Black/dp/B0049P2000/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335495011&sr=8-1


I would imagine youll be happy with either, both have great reviews. The Energy sub is rated down to 33 Hz, the ML sub to 37 Hz.


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Gobucks said:


> Would you recommend the Energy Take Classics over the MLT-2 system?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-MLT-2-Theater-System-Black/dp/B0049P2000/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335495011&sr=8-1


Go, they are both the same in my opinion, everything is just small. I have put together a Polk audio 5.1 system for you if you care to consider it: 4 Polk Audio Monitor 30's ($ 238 ) Polk CS1 center, same drivers as the 30's ( $79 ) and Polk PSW 10 subwoofer ( $119 ) enter promo code EMCNFHD78 for $30 off the sub, total for six speakers at Newegg $409.96 delivered. The MSRP is $1000 or more.. The 30's are a perfect size for you and not micro like the Energy or MLT's, dimensions 11"H X 7"W X 10"D and the matching center has the same 5.25 drivers and sub has a 10" driver specified 35Hz response, the 30's also have a 55-25KHz response, plenty of output here with decent extension. I don't think this sale will last long or be in stock either. I hope this helps my friend, I put all of this in a cart at Newegg and final price delivered $409.96 right at your budget with a lot less compromises than the Energy's and MLT's. Good luck my friend, let us know what you decide.
Jeff


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Hey Go, I think this sale at Newegg is only good for a limited time and available stock, hope to hear from you soon.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Its larger but I would take the Polk system over the MLs or Energy.


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

TypeA said:


> Its larger but I would take the Polk system over the MLs or Energy.


TY, I agree my friend, I hope the OP chimes in soon, nothing from him today...


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## Gobucks (Apr 17, 2012)

Thanks for the research - I really appreciate it. One follow-up question. It looks like Polk has other sets (like the RM510), and I couldn't tell what parts go into those sets. So I assume that what you have pieced together for me is comprised of better components than those packages for the price?

As much as I would really like to pull the trigger on this deal, which I see does expire soon, I have some logistical issues to work around. First, I have not even started to gut and rehab the room where this is going to go, so it will probably be at least a couple months before I will be in a position to start putting the HT together. And this really needs to be as covert as possible - large boxes from Newegg right now will catch the Warden's attention and invite serious scrutiny. It looks like in the Newegg comments that these speakers pretty regularly go on sale, so I might have to wait and hope it comes back around again.

Unless I can come up with an op that has a reasonable chance of success, I am going to have to wait. But I have written down the list, will follow them at Newegg (which I have been a huge fan of for years now on the computer side) and get them later. I feel pretty comfortable now that I have vetted this issue sufficiently with the experts, and even though I don't fully understand and appreciate the specs, I have received enough information to make an intelligent choice within my budget. Thanks!


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Gobucks said:


> Thanks for the research - I really appreciate it. One follow-up question. It looks like Polk has other sets (like the RM510), and I couldn't tell what parts go into those sets. So I assume that what you have pieced together for me is comprised of better components than those packages for the price?
> 
> As much as I would really like to pull the trigger on this deal, which I see does expire soon, I have some logistical issues to work around. First, I have not even started to gut and rehab the room where this is going to go, so it will probably be at least a couple months before I will be in a position to start putting the HT together. And this really needs to be as covert as possible - large boxes from Newegg right now will catch the Warden's attention and invite serious scrutiny. It looks like in the Newegg comments that these speakers pretty regularly go on sale, so I might have to wait and hope it comes back around again.
> 
> Unless I can come up with an op that has a reasonable chance of success, I am going to have to wait. But I have written down the list, will follow them at Newegg (which I have been a huge fan of for years now on the computer side) and get them later. I feel pretty comfortable now that I have vetted this issue sufficiently with the experts, and even though I don't fully understand and appreciate the specs, I have received enough information to make an intelligent choice within my budget. Thanks!



Go, the RM510 in my opinion is a big step down, the sat's are very small with 2.5" drivers, compared to buying in pieces with the Monitor 30's and matching center and a subwoofer. Like I said these are only suggestions, you have to decide in the end what's best for you. The Polk setup that I put together for you is a close out deal, they are no longer manufactured and when Newegg sells out which they often do, they are gone. At $409 delivered you are not taking much of a chance that you won't be satisfied, I think you will when compared to the MLT's and Energy Take Classics, just keep them in storage till you are ready to use them, in the mean time you could slowly get your cabling and AVR. The specs you are referring to are the speakers sensitivity (easy to drive) and frequency range, I believe the 30's are 55Hz-25KHz, this is the FR that can be usuable before crossing over to the sub, much better response than the RM510, MLT's and Energy Take Classic. Good luck my friend, tell your SO what you will getting for $400, she will come around.
Jeff


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