# Understanding Volume Levels db .



## cheetat1

Hi All, I am new to the home theater scene and setting up a 7.1 system. My recieve is Onkyo - TX-N1007. This is the first reciever I have owned. The volume displays in dB. It starts out in the negatives and gets louder in lower negative numbers. For example moving from -30 to -20, the volume gets louder. I don't understand it at all. I realize my listening level for music is about -25 to -23. 

Why is the display in dB and why the lower negative get louder into the positive?


----------



## xiasonas

The reason your receiver is marked in db rather than in a linear scale is because this corresponds much better to the way the human ear listens, i.e. logarithmically . db is a logarithmic scale. if you don t ubderstand logarithms you are at a disadvantage to appreciate what this means but you must know that roughly speaking, the human ear thinks the the loudness has doubled when the sound pressure level incrases by 10 db ! which on a linear scale corresponds to a 10 fold increase in sound power. As an example : If 10 loudspeakers are playing at the same loudness instead of one we think that the loudness has doubled . There are significant reasons why the human ear fubctions the way it does. 
As for the increase of sound as the numbers increase from negative to positive this is a normal convention. If you were going from the -3rd floor (3 below the ground) to the + 5 (i.e. 5 above) you would be going up by 8 floors. Hope this has helped you.


----------



## Zing

cheetat1 said:


> Why is the display in dB and why the lower negative get louder into the positive?


Typically speaking, a master volume setting of 0dB represents a reference level where, in a properly calibrated system, should yield 105db of output. Some manufacturers (maybe even most) supposedly design their gear to sound best at 0dB (I believe this has to do with the gain structure of the amplifier). So the volume level indicator is designed to display how far away from reference level you are, hence the negative numbers and why it gets louder as the numbers get smaller.

Think of it as trying to reach a target and the distance you are away from it. The smaller the number, the closer you are. So at a master volume setting of -30dB, you are 30dB away from reference level. At a setting of -10dB you're now only 10dB away.


----------



## cheetat1

Thanks so much. What's the deal with reference level 00 and things like that?


----------



## cheetat1

I'm confused, sorry just trying to understand this. If reference level is 0dB and output of 105dB. Does that mean I have to crank up the volume to +105dB to get reference level?


----------



## Zing

cheetat1 said:


> I'm confused, sorry just trying to understand this. If reference level is 0dB and output of 105dB. Does that mean I have to crank up the volume to +105dB to get reference level?


No. 0dB on your receiver _*IS*_ 105dB SPL, assuming you have a properly calibrated system.


----------



## dyohn

In a preamp (or receiver) with db level output scale, the reading is how far away from its reference you are. 0db is the preamp's reference level. -XXdb is some volume below reference, +XXdb is some volume above. 

As an aside, I have never seen a commercial preamp where those markings are accurate, nor are they usually actually giving true db levels. The output level is just for comparison, not for calibration.


----------



## lsiberian

dyohn said:


> In a preamp (or receiver) with db level output scale, the reading is how far away from its reference you are. 0db is the preamp's reference level. -XXdb is some volume below reference, +XXdb is some volume above.
> 
> As an aside, I have never seen a commercial preamp where those markings are accurate, nor are they usually actually giving true db levels. The output level is just for comparison, not for calibration.


Yes they alos vary depending on the input, speakers and room. For example most HD audio tracks tend be louder than their dolby digital counterparts. Loudness is perceived as better and this is why many folks might think one receiver, cd player, or format sounds better than another. In reality it's probably a function of signal strength. To get your actual volume you'd need an SPL meter.


----------



## cheetat1

I am getting it now. I read online that sustained levels at or above 90dB can cause hearing loss. Wow, and reference level at 105dB can cause hearing loss also right? 

Also about calibration. I am getting an SPL meter & the Avia II cabibration DVD today. Should I do the Onkyo Audyessy calibration and the SPL meter calibration?


----------



## tonyvdb

Just a correction. Reference level is not 105db, it is 75db with peaks of 115db. The test tone your receiver uses is what is called pink noise and usually is full frequency so it will also depend on the music that your listening to as to wether your actually getting "refference level" when your receiver volume control is at 0db. Room size and acoustics all play a part in what you hear and how "loud" it sounds. Reference level is dependant on how far you sit from the speakers as well. An SPL meter will tell you what you are actually getting using pink noise and if your receivers auto room setup has done the level calibration properly.


----------



## selden

105 db should be the loudest your receiver ever generates: it is for movies with explosions. Brief exposure to that shouldn't cause damage. Continuous exposure is the major cause of damaged hearing -- like listening to live rock bands for several hours. If your ears ring afterward, you've certainly had permanent damage.

The automated Audyssey equalization is an alternative to equalizing the sound levels manually with a meter and calibration disc. Audyssey can supposedly do it better than you can because it can quickly adjust more frequencies and optimize the sound for several listening positions. Doing it manually can take quite a bit longer. But that shouldn't stop you from doing it manually and comparing the results!


----------



## tonyvdb

momentary exposure to peaks of 120db wont cause hearing loss, it is sustained levels that do. It also depends on what the sound is. A sonic boom could cause damage as it is very abrupt and contains very high sound pressure levels. A freight train horn at close proximity is just as loud but not as damaging due to the frequencies it uses.


----------



## dyohn

How loud is loud... you might find this information interesting: *LINK*


----------



## Zing

cheetat1 said:


> Also about calibration. I am getting an SPL meter & the Avia II cabibration DVD today. Should I do the Onkyo Audyessy calibration and the SPL meter calibration?


You should do your own calibration first. And do yourself a favor by writing down the settings once you're done (more on this later).

If you *calibrate using your receiver's test tones*, you'll want to make sure your SPL meter (while located in the listening position with its response set to slow and its weighting set to C) reads 75dB from all 5 speakers. As for the sub, there is compensation (for the Radio Shack meter's inability to accurate measure progessively lower frequencies) that should be considered. In other words, if you calibrate all channels, including the sub, to 75dB on a Radio Shack SPL meter, your sub will be too loud. FYI - accroding to _my_ SPL meter, _my_ 5 speakers are at 75dB but _my_ sub is at 68dB.

If you *calibrate using the Avia disc *instead of the internal test tones, the procedure is the same as above but you'll be calibrating to 85dB instead of 75dB.

Once you've done this, you can run Audessey if you'd like. You should know that this will adjust more parameters than just the channel levels and you may not like the resulting sound. If you've written down the settings from your own calibration, you can undo what Audessey did and set everything back to the way it was prior.


----------



## glaufman

Of course, at the heart of this is, hopefully I didn't miss where someone else went through it...
When we say dB is a logarithmic measure, it doesn't really give the full story.
dB is a "relative" measure. As in, this is 3dB lower than this, or 10dB higher than that.
So, assuming you set your volume control to 0dB, run your receiver's test tones, and using the calibration settings in your AVR to make those test tones read 75dB SPL at your listening position (with the volume knob at 0dB), then...
You'll be able to know when you're listening at reference level (0dB) or 3db below reference (-3dB) or 15dB below reference (-15dB)... of course, you might listen above reference as well, (+3dB etc)...


----------



## glaufman

Zing said:


> If you *calibrate using the Avia disc *instead of the internal test tones, the procedure is the same as above but you'll be calibrating to 85dB instead of 75dB.


Definitely calibrate levels using the internal tones on your AVR. I don't know if it was ever fixed on Avia II, but I'm pretty sure there was a time when the LFE channel on Avia was at the wrong level relative to the other channels. 

Even better would be to use your RS meter to take a sweep with REW (free software you can download from that section of this forum)... If you have a soundcard with line in and line out, a couple cables and an adapter... It will automatically apply the correction factors for the meter for you, and if you do befores and afters it'll show you exactly what your calibration features are doing for you...


----------



## tonyvdb

glaufman said:


> Of course, at the heart of this is, hopefully I didn't miss where someone else went through it...
> When we say dB is a logarithmic measure, it doesn't really give the full story.
> dB is a "relative" measure. As in, this is 3dB lower than this, or 10dB higher than that.
> So, assuming you set your volume control to 0dB, run your receiver's test tones, and using the calibration settings in your AVR to make those test tones read 75dB SPL at your listening position (with the volume knob at 0dB), then...
> You'll be able to know when you're listening at reference level (0dB) or 3db below reference (-3dB) or 15dB below reference (-15dB)... of course, you might listen above reference as well, (+3dB etc)...


And of course it all depends on if the recorded material was mastered at the correct levels. CDs are notorious for being all over the place for levels from one studio to the next. 
Movies are also subject to this take for example the Hulk, it has subsonic levels that will bring almost any subwoofer to its knees and even can clip your receivers internal amps if run at "reference" levels.


----------



## lcaillo

selden said:


> 105 db should be the loudest your receiver ever generates: it is for movies with explosions. Brief exposure to that shouldn't cause damage. Continuous exposure is the major cause of damaged hearing -- like listening to live rock bands for several hours. If your ears ring afterward, you've certainly had permanent damage.
> 
> The automated Audyssey equalization is an alternative to equalizing the sound levels manually with a meter and calibration disc. Audyssey can supposedly do it better than you can because it can quickly adjust more frequencies and optimize the sound for several listening positions. Doing it manually can take quite a bit longer. But that shouldn't stop you from doing it manually and comparing the results!


A receiver or amplifier does not generate 105dB, nor does it generate 75dB nor any other level. The output in dB is dependent on the speakers, the input level to the receiver or amp, and the amount of gain in the amplifier. Volume controls vary in how they are calibrated, but in general, 0dB on a receiver volume control is typically at or near its maximum power output in terms of voltage swing at its rated load. It may be clipping into some loads and easily driving others. Depending on the amp and the source it may reach voltage clipping or current limiting at, above, or well before 0dB on the controls. Some of these dB labelled controls are very misleading because they are linear and not log referenced. The bottom line is that you need to listen for distortion, and turn the system down when you hear it. Anything anywhere near 0dB on most amps is going to likely result in clipping at some point with many sources.


----------



## Moonfly

Just a note:

The dynamic range of movie material is 85db - 105db, with the LFE channel being upto 115db. The 75db reference level is for test tones when calibrating your system. 

For the OP,

When you calibrate your system, you start the test tone, you measure the output in your listening position with an SPL meter, then adjust the volume using the amps trim levels for each speaker channel (not the master volume!). Once the test tone reads 75db for each speaker channel, your system will be calibrated, and if you play movies with your amp volume on 0, you will be open to the maximum dynamic range movies are designed to produce at reference level. That is the 85db to 105db scale and +10db more for the subwoofer channel.
FYI, adding a good sub will reduce the stress on your speakers and your Onkyo amp, thus reducing the chance of your amp clipping as mentioned by others above.


----------



## glaufman

Moonfly said:


> The dynamic range of movie material is 85db - 105db, with the LFE channel being upto 115db. The 75db reference level is for test tones when calibrating your system.


I think I know what you meant, but just to be clear, the dynamic range doesn't bottom out at 85dB.:nerd::devil:

The 85(avg) 105(peak) numbers (LFE excluded) are considered by most (most notably by THX) to be too loud in Home Theaters... THX (and others, I believe) recommends max SPLs of 10dB lower (75/95) in Home Theaters, hence the 75dB level for proper calibration of the test tones in AVRs. Indeed, even THX admits that even 75/95 is pretty loud in Home Theaters, and many, many people listen at quieter levels.


----------



## lcaillo

Dynamic range is probably the wrong term to describe what he meant. The dynamic range may be theoretically large but in practice is far less. What he meant, I believe is the typical max listening levels.


----------



## Moonfly

glaufman said:


> I think I know what you meant, but just to be clear, the dynamic range doesn't bottom out at 85dB.:nerd::devil:
> 
> The 85(avg) 105(peak) numbers (LFE excluded) are considered by most (most notably by THX) to be too loud in Home Theaters... THX (and others, I believe) recommends max SPLs of 10dB lower (75/95) in Home Theaters, hence the 75dB level for proper calibration of the test tones in AVRs. Indeed, even THX admits that even 75/95 is pretty loud in Home Theaters, and many, many people listen at quieter levels.


Yeah I agree with you (and THX) there. Those levels are the studio designated levels, and are considered the benchmark, but I agree its too loud for the home in general really. If thats where the 75db measuring level came in then it makes sense, and I'll take your word on that :T

In respect of reference levels, I always consider there 2 be two. The one we use at home for system setup, and the studios (mega loud :devil reference level. Whatever you consider reference to be, when my amp is a 0 I consider it to be at reference and try not to think about it beyond that too much :bigsmile:



lcaillo said:


> Dynamic range is probably the wrong term to describe what he meant. The dynamic range may be theoretically large but in practice is far less. What he meant, I believe is the typical max listening levels.


I dont know about typical, I think most people listen at -10 to -20 anyway, which kinda makes reference levels just a reference, but yes I was talking about max listening level based on studio reference. Really I was just quoting studio references, which we are supposed to be calibrating to. We then just listen at a level thats comfortable so I suppose in the grand scheme of things is not critically important.

Glaufman has now got me wandering if my home THX Ultra 2 amp sets the reference point at 80-105 or 75-95. FYI, my Ultra measured 105 db when I did a reference level sweep on REW, which is good, but I have my LFE content channel set to -10 :scratch: :dumbcrazy:. Whether that appiles to testing I dont know :dontknow:. When i get time I think I'll give it another test with my new sub.


----------



## tonyvdb

Just keep in mind that a good clean un-distorted reference level is not all that "loud". I listen to movies at reference often although usually at about -8db on the volume and find it sounds fantastic. Room acoustics play a huge part in how reference level sounds as you could have far to many reflection points and even to many highs causing it to seem to loud.


----------



## Moonfly

tonyvdb said:


> Just keep in mind that a good clean un-distorted reference level is not all that "loud". I listen to movies at reference often although usually at about -8db on the volume and find it sounds fantastic. Room acoustics play a huge part in how reference level sounds as you could have far to many reflection points and even to many highs causing it to seem to loud.


I agree with this. Ive got to a point where I can happily listen a reference. Nothing distorts obviously, and until the mega effects come in its not even that loud really, or maybe I'm going a bit deaf in my old age :dumbcrazy:.


----------



## goonstopher

All of this confirms my fear/excitement over my new jtr's

I just keep turning them up and up because they feel like they can take more and there is nothing harsh to stop me. High sensitivity and dynamic speakers with low distortion will challenge your long term hearing and not even break a sweat doing it.


----------



## glaufman

Fair enough guys... but what's the point in going so loud that OSHA says you should be wearing protection? :hsd:


----------



## tonyvdb

glaufman said:


> Fair enough guys... but what's the point in going so loud that OSHA says you should be wearing protection? :hsd:


If it was constant then yes but Reference level is constantly changing and is not going to cause any hearing loss unless you listen at these levels all day. Remember that these are peaks of between 85 and 115dbs. If you were to have a rocket engine or explosions playing through you system for 2 hrs straight then you would have a problem but as we all know this only happens briefly.


----------



## Ayreonaut

OP, here's an illustration. This is for commercial theaters, so they show the pink noise at 85 db. 

Home theater receivers are usuall set up differently, their pink noise signal should playback at 75 dB at the listening location.


----------



## glaufman

tonyvdb said:


> If it was constant then yes but Reference level is constantly changing and is not going to cause any hearing loss unless you listen at these levels all day. Remember that these are peaks of between 85 and 115dbs. If you were to have a rocket engine or explosions playing through you system for 2 hrs straight then you would have a problem but as we all know this only happens briefly.


I agree Tony... I meant (tongue-in-cheek) to refer to people who go so far as to play above reference, to the point where you have sustained dangerous levels...

Here's a question on the clarification above... Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that when we say an AVRs test tones are meant to be calibrated to 75dBSPL at the LP, that means 75dBSPL at the LP with an input of -20dBFS, yes? That being the difference between the chart shown for Cinemas vs the presumed one not shown for Home Theaters: reference is still -20dBFS. And while I'm at it, dialnorm aside, this -20dBFS is considered more of an average level for "normal scenes"?


----------



## Ricci

glaufman said:


> Here's a question on the clarification above... Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that when we say an AVRs test tones are meant to be calibrated to 75dBSPL at the LP, that means 75dBSPL at the LP with an input of -20dBFS, yes? That being the difference between the chart shown for Cinemas vs the presumed one not shown for Home Theaters: reference is still -20dBFS. And while I'm at it, dialnorm aside, this -20dBFS is considered more of an average level for "normal scenes"?


I thought it was -30dbfs when you were calibrating with 75db pink noise? If it says to calibrate to 85db then it's a -20dbfs signal. :dontknow: The 10db difference in calibration signals being because 85db of pink noise is loud and a little irritating to some.


----------



## glaufman

Well, now I'm glad I asked the question...
It could very well be a signal at -30dBFS that you calibrate to 75dB, but that would imply that full peaks would still be at 105dB...
I'm under the impression it's actually still a -20FS signal that you calibrate to 75dB, thereby lowering the peaks to 95dB...
Of course, I'm exlusively talking main channels (not LFE/SUB) here.


----------



## Ricci

Just from personal experience with my equipment, if I calibrate to 75db at a volume level of "0", when I watch a movie at "0" the peaks from each speaker will be way in excess of 95db and closer to 100db or 105db. Very loud. Adding 5 channels together that's theoretically a possible 112db. That's why I don't normally run them at that volume.


This is easy to test. Calibrate to 75db (if this is what your processor calls for) then leaving the volume at the REF level , unplug all but one main speaker, put on a movie with a loud Dolby Digital track (Don't use DTS) and find one of the action scenes that you know to be loud. Record the peak reading with the highest range and C weighting, fast response. Should be in excess of 100db at the listening position, provided that you speaker can safely handle this without heavily compressing or clipping the amp hard. 

Actually most systems cannot pull that off and there is no need to try that high of a level. Knock it back -10 or -15 db from REF and record the peak output with the SPL meter and then add the 10 or 15db back to the meter reading. If you try this at -15db from REF you should record a peak between 85-90db with one main at the listening position.


----------



## glaufman

I hope I'm not hijacking, but since it's related to the topic...


Ricci said:


> Just from personal experience with my equipment, if I calibrate to 75db at a volume level of "0", when I watch a movie at "0" the peaks from each speaker will be way in excess of 95db and closer to 100db or 105db. Very loud. Adding 5 channels together that's theoretically a possible 112db. That's why I don't normally run them at that volume.


I find this intriguing, but disturbing as well, this implies that the dynamic range encoded on the disk is different than that from the cinemas... I suppose that's not the only thing different, as THX advises an X-curve etc, but ...


> This is easy to test. Calibrate to 75db (if this is what your processor calls for) then leaving the volume at the REF level , unplug all but one main speaker, put on a movie with a loud Dolby Digital track (Don't use DTS) and find one of the action scenes that you know to be loud. Record the peak reading with the highest range and C weighting, fast response. Should be in excess of 100db at the listening position, provided that you speaker can safely handle this without heavily compressing or clipping the amp hard.
> 
> Actually most systems cannot pull that off and there is no need to try that high of a level. Knock it back -10 or -15 db from REF and record the peak output with the SPL meter and then add the 10 or 15db back to the meter reading. If you try this at -15db from REF you should record a peak between 85-90db with one main at the listening position.


Intriguing again, but I think a test that might be more to the point would be to try and level set so REW could read the output of a pre-amp, so as to eliminate acoustic variables like reflections, resonances, and buildup...


----------



## glaufman

As a side note, measuring the output of REW would also allow us to eliminate the subwoofer from the measurement, which is SUPPOSED to have peaks 10dB louder than the mains anyway...
I guess we could simply turn the sub off for the test... any chance you did that when you ran your test?


----------



## Moonfly

Might be interesting or not but,Ive done reference level sub sweeps with REW on my old SVS PB13U. It showed it to be outputting 105db (cant do it with my DIY as the amp struggles to push 10hz into 2 ohms at that level). So, that could answer something, or could mix it up, depending on whether or not the sub channel is 10db hot or not.

One variable though, I had the .1 in DTS/DD/DTSHD etc etc etc set to -10 at the time as the missus liked it that way.

Not the most conclusive result I know ( I was just messing at the time ), but for the purposes of this discussion, it could be worth doing this test again properly to see what results it throws out.


----------



## Moonfly

glaufman said:


> I find this intriguing, but disturbing as well, this implies that the dynamic range encoded on the disk is different than that from the cinemas... I suppose that's not the only thing different, as THX advises an X-curve etc, but ...


My amp has a feature called re-eq. It supposed to account for the audio soundtracks being too harsh due to being designed for the cinema environment as opposed to the home. That would suggest we get the same ST as the cinema, but how consistent is that across al the films out there :dontknow:


----------



## glaufman

Agreed. If you were sending REW through analog to a standard input, then the bass management would've been redirecting to the sub, but should NOT have been going 10dB hot... OTOH, I DID read somewhere that many AVRs don't do the boost first and management after, as one might expect... I don't really remember why, perhaps something about having to apply a cut to whatever gets redirected from LFE to mains... I guess it gets complicated if you insist on doing it right...
So... I think the best way is to use a main channel of a multi.ch input and the preamp output ...


----------



## glaufman

Yes, re-eq is common talk among THX people, the idea being to rengineer the x-curve normally applied for the cinema...


----------



## glaufman

Trouble being, IMO, it's applied (auto correction schemes aside) as a one size fits all approach, so we can hardly claim uniformity across listening environments... perhaps it's close enough that changes from living room to living room are negligible...


----------



## Moonfly

glaufman said:


> Agreed. If you were sending REW through analog to a standard input, then the bass management would've been redirecting to the sub, but should NOT have been going 10dB hot... OTOH, I DID read somewhere that many AVRs don't do the boost first and management after, as one might expect... I don't really remember why, perhaps something about having to apply a cut to whatever gets redirected from LFE to mains... I guess it gets complicated if you insist on doing it right...
> So... I think the best way is to use a main channel of a multi.ch input and the preamp output ...


I actually used an HDMI connection for that particular test :nerd:


----------



## glaufman

OK. Bitstream or PCM?


----------



## tonyvdb

I think one thing a person needs to keep in mind here is that room acoustics play a huge part in what reference level sounds like. In a poorly designed room it can sound much harsher and be unpleasant but if you have the room corrected properly then reference at the listening position is actually not that loud.


----------



## Moonfly

TBH never really actively checked that one, but based on the Onkyo display showing multichannel I'm going to presume it was PCM.


----------



## Moonfly

tonyvdb said:


> I think one thing a person needs to keep in mind here is that room acoustics play a huge part in what reference level sounds like. In a poorly designed room it can sound much harsher and be unpleasant but if you have the room corrected properly then reference at the listening position is actually not that loud.


I agree a lot of that has to do with room acoustics, ie soft furnishings etc. A living room that is 'hard' would then lend itself to sounding harsh anyway, but more so as the higher frequencies are magnified slightly to account for cinemas being a soft environment.

IMO, a need to apply re-eq is a good way to realise your ears are telling you your room needs acoustic treatment.


----------



## glaufman

tonyvdb said:


> I think one thing a person needs to keep in mind here is that room acoustics play a huge part in what reference level sounds like. In a poorly designed room it can sound much harsher and be unpleasant but if you have the room corrected properly then reference at the listening position is actually not that loud.


I certainly won't argue with you on that one!


Moonfly said:


> TBH never really actively checked that one, but based on the Onkyo display showing multichannel I'm going to presume it was PCM.


Well, if it PCM, then one would expect the LFE to already have gotten it's 10dB boost... hopefully... but would one expect the receiver's bass management to be active?


> IMO, a need to apply re-eq is a good way to realise your ears are telling you your room needs acoustic treatment.


Not sure I completely agree here... IIRC re-eq is partially to undo compensation added to cinematic tracks to account for additional dissipation in higher frequencies due to the increase distance from the drivers (as compared to the home environment).


----------



## Drudge

From what I have read on other forums,I believe they use different mixes that are mixed on a room standard for smaller rooms for DVD and Blu-Ray instead of the theatrical mixes.No X-curve is used on the small room standard.

Supposedly that's the reasoning behind not needing Re-EQ for today's soundtracks.However,how do you know what type of room they are using as a reference?


----------



## Moonfly

glaufman said:


> Not sure I completely agree here... IIRC re-eq is partially to undo compensation added to cinematic tracks to account for additional dissipation in higher frequencies due to the increase distance from the drivers (as compared to the home environment).


I can see your point, which points the the 'interpretation' factor I suppose. I think sometimes we can end up trying to read into things to much for very little return. I would say that both our comment essentially could amount to the same thing, again depending on the individuals interpretation. I could be employing 'fuzzy logic' but hey, it works for Audyssey and works for me, and the end results is what matters.

The obvious problem is still consistency across recordings though (as highlighted by Drudge in post #46), if that bench mark moves it makes it hard for home calibrators to work to any particular datum. To that end, I try not to overly think things as the deeper you dig the more question you find. I try to work to all the guidelines to the point I'm happy with what I hear, then try to ignore the devil on the shoulder that throws what ifs at the back of my face.


----------



## glaufman

Moonfly said:


> I can see your point, which points the the 'interpretation' factor I suppose. I think sometimes we can end up trying to read into things to much for very little return. I would say that both our comment essentially could amount to the same thing, again depending on the individuals interpretation. I could be employing 'fuzzy logic' but hey, it works for Audyssey and works for me, and the end results is what matters.
> 
> The obvious problem is still consistency across recordings though (as highlighted by Drudge in post #46), if that bench mark moves it makes it hard for home calibrators to work to any particular datum. To that end, I try not to overly think things as the deeper you dig the more question you find. I try to work to all the guidelines to the point I'm happy with what I hear, then try to ignore the devil on the shoulder that throws what ifs at the back of my face.


A good strategy to be sure. Just one that I never can quite get myself to adopt.


----------



## glaufman

Drudge said:


> From what I have read on other forums,I believe they use different mixes that are mixed on a room standard for smaller rooms for DVD and Blu-Ray instead of the theatrical mixes.No X-curve is used on the small room standard.
> 
> Supposedly that's the reasoning behind not needing Re-EQ for today's soundtracks.However,how do you know what type of room they are using as a reference?


Yes, it's mixed differently these days. Trouble is, how many of our rooms match the standard, and really how many of the rooms they use to mix match the standard? I do believe there's still an X-curve applied, just a different one... that may be less of an X... :bigsmile:


----------



## Moonfly

glaufman said:


> A good strategy to be sure. Just one that I never can quite get myself to adopt.


Oh know exactly where you come from and I struggle with it myself, and thats part of the reason we have learned as much as we have (well hopefully ). We cant just turn our back on it but I have come to find there is a point where I learn something new and try to apply it for no definitive improvement. Its recognising that point before it drives you mad thats hard.


----------



## glaufman

Agreed. Luckily (if you can call it that) I'm busy enough these days that I haven't even gotten to many smaller things that should make big differences, so I have no danger of tweaking till it hurts...
I received 2 pieces of good advice (when taken as a whole) a while back:
#1: Don't sweat the small stuff
#2: It's all small stuff.


----------



## Moonfly

Cant argue with the  :T


----------



## Drudge

Yeah,they probably apply some form of small room curve.I've read that some of the DVD mastering rooms will just switch the near field monitors high freq switch to -2dB to simulate a little over absorption/rolloff in the highs that occurs in a lot of living rooms due to furniture,curtains,etc...and then they compensate for that in the soundtrack.If your room is acoustically correct or too lively then you'd either have a dull or overly bright playback experience.

It would be better if the end user could just automatically adjust the material to their own environment correctly and leave the soundtrack to be mastered for the dubbing stage instead of trying to master for a hypothetical living room.I can see Audyssey and others doing this in the future. 

This hobby can drive you mad or into the poor house if you let it!:bigsmile:


----------



## Moonfly

Dont Audyssey kind of already try to compensate for the room though, I thought that was kinda the whole idea of Audyssey being used in your system.

Or maybe this hobby already drove me mad as a hatter lol.


----------



## Drudge

Yeah,it corrects for the room.Sorry about that:duh:
I was thinking that maybe the audio could be adjusted to playback the way it was intended to sound by the unit analyzing the soundtrack and determining if Re-EQ needs to be applied or not automatically on each soundtrack(depending on whether the track was using an X-curve or not) after the room response has been determined and corrected.


----------

