# To Audyssey...Or Not to Audyssey?



## Osage_Winter

Hello Good Friends at the Shack!

As I have been experimenting during my DVD and Blu-ray reviews, I've been playing around more and more with my Onkyo 605's Audyssey 2EQ system. First, some history: When I first got the receiver, back when everyone was in a fit about this unit based on its price and when it first came out, me and my installer attempted using Audyssey to calibrate the speakers in my then-bookshelf speakered system, but after serval attempts and not getting any usable results or not being able to lower the ambient noise for a suitable reading, we gave up and he calibrated manually (which I changed rather dramatically based on what he found for my room; the readings just seemed way too hot). 

Since moving into a new house from the old apartment where the system was first calibrated, and now running Polk RTi12 mains instead of the R20 bookshelves I used to run, I've been toying with Audyssey once again -- however, each time I run the system, it comes back with different results, even with the exact same environmental conditions. The thing is, I have read so many conflicting reports online about Audyssey and whether or not it "should be" used -- hop on to BluRay.com and look at the forums there with all the people and their different opinions about Audyssey and its benefits or lack thereof; it is daunting. The main thing I agreed with, after running the system and listening to some films with it engaged, is the high frequency rolloff the system engages -- it seems a "re-EQ" curve of some kind, or a filter, is being applied which makes my overall system sound a bit like it's in a box. I understand that this has been confirmed before -- that Audyssey does trim some top off the highs, but I'm not sure I like it. Further, beyond just getting the crossovers completely wrong (I know this isn't something Audyssey sets but is implemented within the AVR's design, but...) I think the distances were a tad bit off and the calibration levels were way less than I manually set them. 

Without a tripod to mount the mic, is Audyssey effective at all? I don't have a tripod to get the mic up to ear level in the sweet spot, as advised, but I do keep the mic on top of the love seat's back cushion at the primary listening area (for measurement 1) with the mic itself facing upwards, nice and level, with NO obstructions around it. Is this okay? Should I just let Audyssey handle all the calibration duties instead of manually calibrating to preference? 

That brings up Audyssey's equalizing functions...beyond basic level and distance matching and such, are the EQ parameters set by the system effective in a particular room? In other words, once Audyssey sets these EQ levels, does that necessarily mean that my room is being "corrected for" the best way the AVR knows how? Right now, I'm running with no EQ at all -- so I am experiencing the audio tracks on DVDs and Blu-rays without any tonal additions, I suppose meaning "flat." What's anyone's take on this?

Finally, I read somewhere online that the 605 model in particular because of its limited processing abilities and power cannot implement Audyssey functions while decoding TrueHD and Master Audio soundtracks...is this true? In other words, if a TrueHD or Master Audio soundtrack is being bitstreamed to the 605 for processing, Audyssey won't engage nor will it apply the settings it made during the auto calibration process...

Has anyone heard of this?


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
The x05 Series did use a less than ideal Microphone for Audyssey (Puck Style) that has since been replaced in all Series thereafter. That being said, the 605 only offers 2EQ and not MultEQ or MultEQ XT which are both far more powerful in terms of Processing Power.

One gripe any have with Onkyo's implementation of Audyssey is that it does not offer the Audyssey Flat Curve which can be quite good in some applications. This however can be worked around by using the THX Cinema with ReEQ off. Unfortunately, the 605 does not offer THX Processing. I think there might be another Sound Mode where you can get the Flat Curve, but cannot currently remember it.

And indeed when the AVR is handling the Decoding of the Lossless Formats, with some Models, Audyssey is not available. I know you have made many Posts about Onkyo's. I really think it might be time to upgrade to a Higher Series. And again, the newer Series use a better Microphone. That being said, I have been quite pleased with MultEQ XT on my 875 with the same Microphone.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Osage_Winter

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> The x05 Series did use a less than ideal Microphone for Audyssey (Puck Style) that has since been replaced in all Series thereafter.


Has it really? I didn't know that; what was so un-ideal about the puck style mic? Does the new 608 still utilize this? 



> That being said, the 605 only offers 2EQ and not MultEQ or MultEQ XT which are both far more powerful in terms of Processing Power.


Indeed. I am aware. 



> One gripe any have with Onkyo's implementation of Audyssey is that it does not offer the Audyssey Flat Curve which can be quite good in some applications. This however can be worked around by using the THX Cinema with ReEQ off. Unfortunately, the 605 does not offer THX Processing. I think there might be another Sound Mode where you can get the Flat Curve, but cannot currently remember it.


I don't think there is, but in any event, what about my questions regarding just leaving EQ off with my own manual settings? Any harm in doing so? Is the EQ making that much of a difference IYO? 



> And indeed when the AVR is handling the Decoding of the Lossless Formats, with some Models, Audyssey is not available.


This is what I was afraid of -- although I simply cannot understand this; why would they market and sell an AVR boasting Audyssey auto-setup and room correction, plus decoding for the lossless formats, when the Audyssey correction won't be implemented when said formats are being decoded? What's the point, given that many people will use the AVR's auto setup routine?

At any rate, is there any confirmation that the 605 is doing this? Should it just be a matter of seeing if the "Audyssey" logo lights on the display during a TrueHD/MA bitstream feed? 



> I know you have made many Posts about Onkyo's. I really think it might be time to upgrade to a Higher Series. And again, the newer Series use a better Microphone. That being said, I have been quite pleased with MultEQ XT on my 875 with the same Microphone.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Well, I understand I have made a few posts about Onkyos; and while I am looking into a higher series replacement, I am trying to ascertain if I can or should utilize my current 2EQ parameters being that I am connected to receive full lossless bitstreams over HDMI from my OPPO BDP-83...:T

I'm trying to garner funds up to replace my 605. It's just hard right now.


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## tonyvdb

I think using Audyssey regardless of what implementation it is will benefit you. Placing the mic on the back of the couch is better than nothing although an inexpensive camera tabletop tripod can be had for less than $20 (I've seen them for $9) so it may be worth it.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
The very shape of the Microphone in the X05 Series was the issue. Audyssey recommended to Onkyo that they use the tower shaped Microphones that have been in all Series since the x05 Series.

Denon and other Audyssey Equipped AVR's and SSP's offer the Flat Curve. Why I brought this up was your assertion that when using Audyssey, the highs are rolled off. By using the Flat Curve, this is avoided. Again, with many Onkyo Models there is a workaround. 

You might want to try having the BDP-83 handle processing of the Codecs and discern if it makes a difference in respect to Audyssey Performance.

I know you have been thinking about upgrading for some time. It is just with your Speakers, BDP, and your interest level just really makes it pretty clear your aspirations have outgrown your AVR. With the X07 Series being discontinued or soon to be, it really is an excellent time to buy one.
And the here is what the Microphone now looks like:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Image...A/V Surround Home Network Receiver TX-NR1007B
Cheers,
JJ


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## tonyvdb

I wonder if a person can buy another mic from Onkyo with the new tall look that would work on the x05 series?


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## Jungle Jack

tonyvdb said:


> I wonder if a person can buy another mic from Onkyo with the new tall look that would work on the x05 series?


Hello,
Tony, unfortunately this is not the case. The x05 Series Audyssey Implementation was designed for specificially for the Puck Shaped Microphone and Calibrated for it. The newer Microphones will not work properly. As soon as I read about the new Microphones, that was my first question as well.
Cheers,
AD


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## Osage_Winter

tonyvdb said:


> I think using Audyssey regardless of what implementation it is will benefit you. Placing the mic on the back of the couch is better than nothing although an inexpensive camera tabletop tripod can be had for less than $20 (I've seen them for $9) so it may be worth it.


Thanks for your opinion on the matter, Tony.

Do you run Audyssey in your setup? 

I understand you're saying "better than nothing," but it's not like I don't have levels calibrated at all -- they're balanced, I'm just not using Audyssey's measurements, EQ curve or applications. My distances have been accurately entered into the AVR using a good old fashioned tape measure, and they were confirmed multiple times to be exact distances to the sweet spot (only), so the only thing I'm really "missing" out on with Audyssey implementation would be the level calibration and EQ application -- are these absolutely essential, or are they based on achieving reference standard?


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## Osage_Winter

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> The very shape of the Microphone in the X05 Series was the issue. Audyssey recommended to Onkyo that they use the tower shaped Microphones that have been in all Series since the x05 Series.


That's interesting. But what was it about the shape that was "wrong"? And are all puck shaped mics completely inaccurate? Are the tower shaped mics now shipping with the new 608s? 



> Denon and other Audyssey Equipped AVR's and SSP's offer the Flat Curve. Why I brought this up was your assertion that when using Audyssey, the highs are rolled off. By using the Flat Curve, this is avoided. Again, with many Onkyo Models there is a workaround.


Indeed; I have to see if there is some kind of work around on my 605. Still, I was able to accurately and distinctly hear a high rolloff situation when Audyssey was implemented -- confirmed by some reports I read online. 

Is running a system "flat" with no EQ okay to do? Will experiencing a DVD or BD soundtrack be any more "real" or "close to what the engineer intended" by leaving an EQ off? 



> You might want to try having the BDP-83 handle processing of the Codecs and discern if it makes a difference in respect to Audyssey Performance.


I can try that -- but I specifically replaced my first generation Panasonic BDP-10A player with this OPPO so that I could bitstream the new codecs to the 605 (as well as gain better DVD upscaling). :bigsmile:



> I know you have been thinking about upgrading for some time. It is just with your Speakers, BDP, and your interest level just really makes it pretty clear your aspirations have outgrown your AVR.


You and I have discussed the "price barrier" difference in opinion before...:T I don't think my Blu-ray player is that "esoteric" like you make out to be (perhaps just my perception; forgive me if I am wrong about this) and the rest of my speakers? Well...perhaps. But you are right that I have reached an upgrade point with the AVR and power source. It's just that funds are a bit tight now. Hence, I'd like to see if I can squeeze a bit more performance out of my 605 utilizing Audyssey. :T



> With the X07 Series being discontinued or soon to be, it really is an excellent time to buy one.
> And the here is what the Microphone now looks like:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Image...A/V Surround Home Network Receiver TX-NR1007B
> Cheers,
> JJ


Which "X07" would you recommend?

Ahhh -- I see now the AVR and microphone you're singling out here; I've seen the new tower mics before...what makes them so much more "accurate" than the pucks?


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## tonyvdb

Yes I have used Audyssey and although a more powerfull version that what your 605 has it still should be done as it makes a huge difference in the sound. The Audyssey EQing is very good and should not be overlooked.


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## Osage_Winter

Thank you very much for your opinion on this Tony; I shall take your perspective into consideration. 

Is the EQ curve it's applying more "crucial" to experiencing a film soundtrack in surround, as opposed to, say, running a system like I am with no EQ or Audyssey implementation applied?


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## Jungle Jack

Osage,
If it is possible to make the 2EQ work with your setup, you should run it. You can always turn it off. As long as your channels are level matched, it will not make an issue in regards to Reference Volume.

You are missing out on the improvements that Audyssey can provide. Hopefully, you can run it again and get the desired results. This is certainly not essential. While a great number of people think Audyssey is amazing, some do not. The better the acoustics are in the Room to begin with the less you need Audyssey.

I hope you did not take offense that I thought you had truly outgrown your AVR. I realize we have had similar discussions on Threads Months ago. I remember bringing up the fact that your BDP cost more than your AVR.

That brings me to this. OPPO's have killer resale value. I would sell your OPPO and your 605 and purchase either a TX-SR876, TX-NR1007, or TX-NR3007. 

When using the AVR to handle the Decoding of the BDP, you really will not have a performance loss by using a cheaper BDP. Prices have plummeted on BDP's. And if you got either the 876 or 3007, Reon could help make up for the loss of DVD Performance from not having the OPPO.
Cheers,
JJ


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## tonyvdb

Audyssey adjusts the EQ in such a way that it makes the sound flat as the studio intended to be thus bringing out all the sounds evenly without peaks or dips in certain frequencies. Even though the design of most speakers are to be flat that is a misunderstanding as room acoustics change how they react and wont sound the same as they did in the design.
Bypassing Audyssey is like watching a movie in Dolby prologic instead of DTS or even the new uncompressed formats.


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## Osage_Winter

Jungle Jack said:


> Osage,
> If it is possible to make the 2EQ work with your setup, you should run it. You can always turn it off. As long as your channels are level matched, it will not make an issue in regards to Reference Volume.


The 2EQ does work; I just felt the results were a little..."funky" when comparing them to my manually dialed-in settings, which keep all channels in the "+dB" region; this is similar to the way in which Tony runs his system, if I am not mistaken, based on an old thread I read in which he commented to a member about Audyssey's implementations and such...



> You are missing out on the improvements that Audyssey can provide. Hopefully, you can run it again and get the desired results. This is certainly not essential. While a great number of people think Audyssey is amazing, some do not. The better the acoustics are in the Room to begin with the less you need Audyssey.


This seems a bit contradictory to me -- and I certainly mean no disrespect here; you say I am missing out on the benefits it can provide but some don't like it. Perhaps I am getting the "desired results," but it's these that I don't like? 



> I hope you did not take offense that I thought you had truly outgrown your AVR. I realize we have had similar discussions on Threads Months ago. I remember bringing up the fact that your BDP cost more than your AVR.


No offense taken whatsoever, as I said last time -- but I recall telling you that my OPPO BDP-83 cost $499 (and that I did not actually buy it, it was a holiday gift from a family member) and that the Onkyo 605 was the same price at the retailer I purchased it from, but on sale for somewhere in the sub-$400 range; so how is the OPPO costing more than the Onkyo? Perhaps a hundred or so dollars or maybe a BIT more, but not much...



> That brings me to this. OPPO's have killer resale value. I would sell your OPPO and your 605 and purchase either a TX-SR876, TX-NR1007, or TX-NR3007.


I appreciate that; but I would like to keep my Blu-ray player right now. I am enjoying its more-than-average upscaling abilities. 



> When using the AVR to handle the Decoding of the BDP, you really will not have a performance loss by using a cheaper BDP.


I understand that, hence bitstreaming makes no difference in terms of the player doing the transfer of the signal via HDMI -- but I just don't want to change out the player right now. 



> Prices have plummeted on BDP's. And if you got either the 876 or 3007, Reon could help make up for the loss of DVD Performance from not having the OPPO.


I see what you're saying; use the Reon chip in the receiver for signal upconversion in the loss of the OPPO, and I completely see your point now. I will chew on that option; I just would like to keep the OPPO. 

What about more thoughts regarding Audyssey? Do you definitely recommend running it even with my 605's limited processing abilities?


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## Osage_Winter

tonyvdb said:


> Audyssey adjusts the EQ in such a way that it makes the sound flat as the studio intended to be thus bringing out all the sounds evenly without peaks or dips in certain frequencies. Even though the design of most speakers are to be flat that is a misunderstanding as room acoustics change how they react and wont sound the same as they did in the design.


Understood...



> Bypassing Audyssey is like watching a movie in Dolby prologic instead of DTS or even the new uncompressed formats.


Really, Tony...is it _to that_ extreme? I don't think it's quite as bad as that; I mean, if everyone who isn't using Audyssey in their systems are listening to soundtracks that are nowhere near what they should be (akin to your Pro Logic comparison), wouldn't there be a major problem? Without Audyssey engaged, we're really not experiencing the real, true lossless formats?

BTW...was I correct in my statement to Jack above that it was you I believe I noticed in another Audyssey conversation on here saying that you run your trim levels in the "+dB" range, not the "-dB" range? I recall another older thread in which someone was discussing this and you had mentioned that some people like to run their trims in the positive range, and others in the negative, and that it's all relative and up to preference? If it wasn't you, I apologize.

You know what's scary? When I e-mailed Onkyo about setting the trim levels based on reference and SPL measurements and such, Eric Martinez of the company actually replied back that "there is no right or wrong way to set these; it's all user preference"...but that's not really so -- they need to be leveled and balanced.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Going down a quite similar road before, I will leave it at this. While the OPPO's does have excellent Upscaling ability, this only applies to DVD's and not to BD's. If at a juncture where you could get close to what you paid for the BDP-83 and your 605 still has some value, using the combined proceeds to purchase a much more capable AVR would make a much bigger overall difference to your HT. And yes, most do not have Components that cost more than their AVR. The usual hierarchy is Speakers, AVR, Components.

While the 605 was/is an excellent Entry Level AVR, it lacks the power and features of the upper tier Models.
By adding a much more powerful AVR, Audyssey MultEQ XT, and more, your entire system would benefit. Not just DVD's which is the case with the BDP-83.

Obviously, if money was not an issue, I could completely understand holding on to the BDP-83. It is a really nice BDP. However, it appears that the ability to add a better AVR is still an issue. With this being the case, it is a question of how to maximize what you have to get the best overall HT.

Your RTi 12's, CC and Surrounds would greatly benefit from the much stronger Amplifier Sections in the 876/1007/3007. As would your HT benefit from having MultEQ XT over 2EQ.

With Audyssey, your In Ceiling Surrounds seem to be the "Wild Card" in terms of how the process is going to work. Usually, Audyssey works well with such installations.

Taking Audyssey out of the equation, the addition of much more powerful Amplifiers, Preamp Outputs, and THX Processing still make this worthwhile. 

Regardless, it seems you are quite reluctant to part with your OPPO. With that being the case, hopefully the funds will be available soon to upgrade your AVR. All the same, the sale of the BDP-83 and 605 would go a long way towards one of the AVR's above.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Kal Rubinson

Osage_Winter said:


> Really, Tony...is it _to that_ extreme? I don't think it's quite as bad as that; I mean, if everyone who isn't using Audyssey in their systems are listening to soundtracks that are nowhere near what they should be (akin to your Pro Logic comparison), wouldn't there be a major problem? Without Audyssey engaged, we're really not experiencing the real, true lossless formats?


Well, that's mixing things a bit. Yes, they are still truly lossless but the FR is skewed by your room's acoustics. Thus, although you refer to the non-Audyssey situation as "flat," it is not and requires Audyssey to approximate flat (albeit with a little roll-off in the treble).



> BTW...was I correct in my statement to Jack above that it was you I believe I noticed in another Audyssey conversation on here saying that you run your trim levels in the "+dB" range, not the "-dB" range? I recall another older thread in which someone was discussing this and you had mentioned that some people like to run their trims in the positive range, and others in the negative, and that it's all relative and up to preference? If it wasn't you, I apologize.


All that is irrelevant since it is the settings of each channel *relative *to the others that matters. + or - is unimportant.



> You know what's scary? When I e-mailed Onkyo about setting the trim levels based on reference and SPL measurements and such, Eric Martinez of the company actually replied back that "there is no right or wrong way to set these; it's all user preference"...but that's not really so -- they need to be leveled and balanced.


That's an easy out for him. User preference is important but only after a proper balance is achieved.


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## tonyvdb

Kal pretty much answered your questions, I think you need to give it a try and see what you get. Make sure that you take several readings in different seating positions and make sure that the room is quiet when the sequence is running. Any noises will mess up the reading.


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## Osage_Winter

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Going down a quite similar road before, I will leave it at this. While the OPPO's does have excellent Upscaling ability, this only applies to DVD's and not to BD's.


I am aware of that. But I must report that I can definitely see some improvement on some Blu-ray Discs versus the player I replaced with the OPPO, a first generation Panasonic DMP-BD10A. The DVD performance is almost night and day in terms of improvement between the two decks -- but there was some elimination of twitchy dithering and other elements when I switched to the OPPO and began playing Blu-rays. 



> If at a juncture where you could get close to what you paid for the BDP-83 and your 605 still has some value, using the combined proceeds to purchase a much more capable AVR would make a much bigger overall difference to your HT. And yes, most do not have Components that cost more than their AVR. The usual hierarchy is Speakers, AVR, Components.


I understand that; I just wanted to point out that the BDP-83 didn't cost that much more than my 605. If at all. 



> While the 605 was/is an excellent Entry Level AVR, it lacks the power and features of the upper tier Models.


I understand this also; although, I disagree, once more, regarding the definition and classification of those in the "entry level" sector -- I do believe the 605 is more of a mid-tier level model, as there are models in the "500" series and now below that have even less capability than the 600-series. 



> By adding a much more powerful AVR, Audyssey MultEQ XT, and more, your entire system would benefit. Not just DVD's which is the case with the BDP-83.


I understand this, but I don't normally leave disc upscaling to be done inside an AVR -- I prefer a disc player to handle the scaling duties. 



> Obviously, if money was not an issue, I could completely understand holding on to the BDP-83. It is a really nice BDP. However, it appears that the ability to add a better AVR is still an issue. With this being the case, it is a question of how to maximize what you have to get the best overall HT.


I can see your viewpoint here about price vs. it not being about the price, but I'd still like to hold on to the BDP-83; what I was really trying to ascertain via this thread was what to do about my 605's current state of Audyssey...



> Your RTi 12's, CC and Surrounds would greatly benefit from the much stronger Amplifier Sections in the 876/1007/3007. As would your HT benefit from having MultEQ XT over 2EQ.


Okay. Understood. 



> With Audyssey, your In Ceiling Surrounds seem to be the "Wild Card" in terms of how the process is going to work. Usually, Audyssey works well with such installations.


But is it worth running the current 2EQ version in my 605 with this setup? 



> Taking Audyssey out of the equation, the addition of much more powerful Amplifiers, Preamp Outputs, and THX Processing still make this worthwhile.


Understood. Thank you. 



> Regardless, it seems you are quite reluctant to part with your OPPO. With that being the case, hopefully the funds will be available soon to upgrade your AVR. All the same, the sale of the BDP-83 and 605 would go a long way towards one of the AVR's above.


Again, I don't want to come off as seeming "absolutely reluctant" to take any advice or sell the OPPO -- please don't think I am taking this "perspective;" I would just prefer, or rather, to keep my Blu-ray player, at least right now. I don't understand why we can't discuss my current AVR's 2EQ system and what it can benefit or not benefit without discussing getting rid of my OPPO...:huh:

Again, I mean absolutely no disrespect or argumentative tone here. :T


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## Osage_Winter

Kal Rubinson said:


> Well, that's mixing things a bit. Yes, they are still truly lossless but the FR is skewed by your room's acoustics. Thus, although you refer to the non-Audyssey situation as "flat," it is not and requires Audyssey to approximate flat (albeit with a little roll-off in the treble).


Okay, perhaps I meant simply "non-EQ"'ed, not "flat;" but what do you mean by "the FR is skewed by my room's acoustics"? 



> All that is irrelevant since it is the settings of each channel *relative *to the others that matters. + or - is unimportant.


I was curious for another reason -- I understand these are irrelevant between people's personal systems, but I had a different reason for asking him that. I was curious as to his "preference" for using "+" settings on his channels, as I thought he posted in a different thread to someone else. I could almost swear that there was a discussion about this in another thread on here, where he noted his preference for "+" dB settings on his system. I wanted more detail and insight about this, that is all. 



> That's an easy out for him. User preference is important but only after a proper balance is achieved.


I figured this was an easy out for them based on the fact that I confronted him with factual accounts where they have instructed certain people in online forums to use certain channel levels and IntelliVolume settings, etc; but his stance was concrete: NONE of these settings can be "suggested" by them, they are ALL user preference (he never mentioned needing to have a proper balance first).


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## Osage_Winter

tonyvdb said:


> Kal pretty much answered your questions, I think you need to give it a try and see what you get. Make sure that you take several readings in different seating positions and make sure that the room is quiet when the sequence is running. Any noises will mess up the reading.


I understand the logistics of taking the readings in a silent room; but there was one thing Kal didn't answer which I had asked you: Do you recall making comments about _preferring_ positive (+) dB settings on your system (as opposed to some who like to run negative (-) settings) in another thread on here? If it wasn't you, my apologies; I thought it was. 

I realize this has nothing to do with people's systems when you're comparing them, as everyone's rooms are different with varying distances and such, but I am asking out of another curiosity.


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## recruit

Osage_Winter said:


> I understand the logistics of taking the readings in a silent room; but there was one thing Kal didn't answer which I had asked you: Do you recall making comments about _preferring_ positive (+) dB settings on your system (as opposed to some who like to run negative (-) settings) in another thread on here? If it wasn't you, my apologies; I thought it was.
> 
> I realize this has nothing to do with people's systems when you're comparing them, *as everyone's rooms are different with varying distances and such*, but I am asking out of another curiosity.


You have answered the question yourself with the second paragraph


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## Osage_Winter

recruit said:


> You have answered the question yourself with the second paragraph


If you read further into those statements, you would have seen where I mentioned "I had another reason for asking..."

There's something else I wanted to know about his settings with regard to the "+" range.


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## recruit

Well that does not seem to make entire senses because if a system is calibrated for there specific room the results may go into the + side or - side depending on the given conditions, or people like to run there systems extremely HOT :scratch:

Edit: for example my system balances out on all + figures except the sub which is at -2db but sounds very well balanced to me


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## Osage_Winter

recruit said:


> Well that does not seem to make entire senses because if a system is calibrated for there specific room the results may go into the + side or - side depending on the given conditions, or people like to run there systems extremely HOT :scratch:


I had a specific question for him regarding "preferring the + range" of speaker settings which I BELIEVE he stated in another thread -- I wanted clarification on that, as I suspect it's why I run my system the way I do, which is as you say, extremely hot (well, it's not extremely hot, but it's run in all +dBs). 



> Edit: for example my system balances out on all + figures except the sub which is at -2db but sounds very well balanced to me


I understand this -- my system is well balanced too at the "+" dBs, with one of the surrounds needing lowering because of its proximity to the listening position and the fact that it was a bit too hot compared to the other surround channel. My sub needed to be dropped into low "+" numbers as well because it was simply bottoming out at very high master volume levels.


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## Ares

Sorry to jump in here like this, I allow Audyssey to do it's thing so to speak and leave it as is except for a few things. In my current room the system balances everything in the -figures since my room would be considered a glorified closet I run the sub hot +6dB. On what setting do you the Volume Control set at on the sub?


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## Osage_Winter

Ares said:


> Sorry to jump in here like this, I allow Audyssey to do it's thing so to speak and leave it as is except for a few things. In my current room the system balances everything in the -figures since my room would be considered a glorified closet I run the sub hot +6dB. On what setting do you the Volume Control set at on the sub?


Ares,

You by all means do not have to apologize for "jumping in here;" that's what I created the thread for, to get input from everyone!

I leave calibration levels on my speakers -- and always have -- in the "+" range because I simply like the "hotter" output so I don't have to crank my master volume up that far (I realize there is a ton of information debating this out there), but the channels are balanced from the sweet spot. My center runs 2dBs higher than the mains and surrounds, as to compensate for dialogue delivery. My sub's volume knob is a bit past half way, but the sub itself isn't that great and needs a replacement. When running the receiver's sub trim high, beyond say "+3dB" or even at "+3dB" on certain films, the sub pops and bottoms out during huge transients, so I have lowered this to +2...


----------



## recruit

After any auto calibration I always check my levels with an SPL meter and adjust accordingly to meet 75db with the sub running slightly hotter than the rest of my speakers, as that it what I prefer.


----------



## Ares

That is something I haven't tried, running all the speakers in the + I"ll give it a try. The reason for my apology is due to the fact when it comes to audio these guys have more knowledge to offer than I, gaming is more my forte. From what I have gathered from reading here and other places the main complaint always seems to be that Audyssey kills the bass, of course I'm a bass junkie so hence the +6dB for the sub in my setup. IMO it seems to be true but then again you can't go by a bass junkie's word.:bigsmile:

John I have read some where that one should try to get the sub @ 100dB at reference level, is this true? As of right now my sub tops out at 85dB at reference.


----------



## recruit

Hi Tony, In theory all speakers should be calibrated to 75db which is reference, but with the dynamic range of most action films you can see spikes of up to 125db for your sub which is what I used to hit quite easily with my old sub, cinemas are calibrated to 85db as per THX/Dolby spec but for home cinema 75db is sufficient for reference.


----------



## Ares

Thank you John, my sub is cool at 85dB my question is why the different dB levels with HT set @75dB and a Theater set @85dB wouldn't it make sense to have the HT the same as the Theater. What I have noticed with Audyssey it seems to make the bass anemic and the center lower which makes dialogue harder to hear or it could be I'm going deaf:gulp:


----------



## recruit

Those are the specs that have been set out for HC and normal Cinemas, there is no reason why you should not set the levels to 85db but you would find that it is just too loud as when we go to the cinema we listen at reference levels although it may not seem like it sometimes but they have.

with ref to Audyssey it can be temperamental if not set 100% correctly and give weird readings, I would just go into the settings and change the SPL with and an SPL meter then change the xover if you feel it is not good enough, do NOT change the distance settings because this is one area that Audyssey usually gets spot on giving the correct delays where needed, and set Audyssey to on and I bet it will sound much better.


----------



## laser188139

Ares said:


> ... why the different dB levels with HT set @75dB and a Theater set @85dB wouldn't it make sense to have the HT the same as the Theater. ...


The difference, Tony, is that theaters are calibrated with a -20dBFS signal and homes are calibrated with a more comfortable -30dBFS test signal. The 0dB full strength level is the same, 105dB (115dB for the LFE channel), but the test signals are different. 

Bill


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I agree with using an SPL Meter to set all Channels to 75 db's. Some, actually many who do this, do choose to up their Subwoofer to 80 db's. When choosing to bump your Speaker Levels above the SPL and/or AVR Auto Setup, your Reference Level will be lower than the 0db it was Designed to be. Matters not in the whole scheme of things I suppose if it is higher. I would give caution to those who do bump up the levels above normal that when raising the volume to 0db you do risk driving the AVR to distortion. 

The Speakers you use and the Amplifiers in the AVR can make it where when calibrating to 75 db's some or all Speakers are in the + range. Especially if using Large and/or inefficient Speakers and an Entry Level AVR.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Kal Rubinson

Osage_Winter said:


> Okay, perhaps I meant simply "non-EQ"'ed, not "flat;" but what do you mean by "the FR is skewed by my room's acoustics"?


Few rooms have perfect acoustics unless they are purpose-designed and constructed by an acoustics expert. For all the rest of us, the faulty acoustics will change and "color" the sound in unfortunate ways. It is those changes that Audyssey is designed to correct as best it can.



> I was curious for another reason -- I understand these are irrelevant between people's personal systems, but I had a different reason for asking him that. I was curious as to his "preference" for using "+" settings on his channels, as I thought he posted in a different thread to someone else. I could almost swear that there was a discussion about this in another thread on here, where he noted his preference for "+" dB settings on his system. I wanted more detail and insight about this, that is all.


I cannot imagine any valid reason.



> I figured this was an easy out for them based on the fact that I confronted him with factual accounts where they have instructed certain people in online forums to use certain channel levels and IntelliVolume settings, etc; but his stance was concrete: NONE of these settings can be "suggested" by them, they are ALL user preference (he never mentioned needing to have a proper balance first).


Well, there is no way to suggest any settings unless he is in your room and measures the performance. Every room is different.

BTW, using 2EQ is better than not using 2EQ.


----------



## Osage_Winter

Ares said:


> That is something I haven't tried, running all the speakers in the + I"ll give it a try. The reason for my apology is due to the fact when it comes to audio these guys have more knowledge to offer than I, gaming is more my forte. From what I have gathered from reading here and other places the main complaint always seems to be that Audyssey kills the bass, of course I'm a bass junkie so hence the +6dB for the sub in my setup. IMO it seems to be true but then again you can't go by a bass junkie's word.:bigsmile:


Ares,

I understand what you are saying about your level of knowledge compared to others and such; still, I do not think you needed to apologize nor do I take back what I originally thanked you for -- I thank you again for your thoughts and perspectives here. 

Secondly, with regard to the "+" dB settings on an AVR or processor, I had always been taught, from the moment I entered this hobby (of course, these were based on others' preferences which I happened to take to) that all speakers, regardless of room, can be set to the, say, "+6dB" setting in the processor's setup menu, with the center being set to say "+8dB" for dialogue compensation. The sub was always a matter of taste or when it started to show problems at a high volume (like my PSW350 does) as far as what dB to set it at. All of this, of course, is dependent on the sweet spot being ABSOLUTELY equidistant from each speaker (in other words, +6dB for the two mains, +8dB for the center and +6 dB for the surrounds unless one is really close to your ear)...if you're not seated between all the speakers, this setup won't work. Also, this will NOT yield "reference" standard volumes or anything of the sort; if accuracy is what you're after in a THX-kind of environment and have the certified gear, this "+" dB theory may not work in your room. It just allows for the film soundtrack to be played back at greater volume levels early in the amplification stage -- it's just what I prefer. Plus, my AVR is not THX certified and does not offer a reference volume scale -- only an absolute kind, and I will discuss this with other members in a moment. 

Even in a very small room like you describe of yours, the "+" dB setup like I do can work regardless of room size because it just means you won't be turning your master volume up much, and it will "seem" like you have a lot more amp power left to go if you want to really rock out...:T


----------



## Osage_Winter

Ares said:


> Thank you John, my sub is cool at 85dB my question is why the different dB levels with HT set @75dB and a Theater set @85dB wouldn't it make sense to have the HT the same as the Theater. What I have noticed with Audyssey it seems to make the bass anemic and the center lower which makes dialogue harder to hear or it could be I'm going deaf:gulp:


Indeed; Audyssey set my center to like +1dB or something the last time I ran it, and my preference has been to run it at +8dB, where dialogue and center activity is absolutely clear as a bell and walloping at times...

It also set the sub into the very low negative values, but from what I understand, this is because the knob on the sub itself was turned up high so the processor and Audyssey is compensating; you can turn this up to your liking but not to where it starts to distort or bottom out -- believe me, you'll know.


----------



## Osage_Winter

recruit said:


> with ref to Audyssey it can be temperamental if not set 100% correctly and give weird readings, I would just go into the settings and change the SPL with and an SPL meter then change the xover if you feel it is not good enough, do NOT change the distance settings because this is one area that Audyssey usually gets spot on giving the correct delays where needed, and set Audyssey to on and I bet it will sound much better.


John,

You should almost always change what Audyssey does to the crossovers -- actually, in many implementations, Audyssey isn't doing the changes for these parameters, it's something that's determined by the hardware manufacturer (Onkyo, Denon, et. al.). Audyssey always sets all my speakers to full band (sometimes not all) but this simply isn't right if you're running a subwoofer. As for the distances, you could be right -- but is there a difference between what Audyssey is setting in terms of distances and what one would achieve with a tape measure? I've always just set the distances according to and accurately based on tape measure readings. When you say "you bet it will sound much better," what exactly are you referring to -- the EQ PLUS the delay that the system sets? This is more accurate than a manual tape measurement reading?


----------



## Osage_Winter

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I agree with using an SPL Meter to set all Channels to 75 db's. Some, actually many who do this, do choose to up their Subwoofer to 80 db's. When choosing to bump your Speaker Levels above the SPL and/or AVR Auto Setup, your Reference Level will be lower than the 0db it was Designed to be. Matters not in the whole scheme of things I suppose if it is higher. I would give caution to those who do bump up the levels above normal that when raising the volume to 0db you do risk driving the AVR to distortion.


Jack,

Some AVRs such as my 605 are not THX certified nor offer a "reference" volume scale (or "relative" one) -- just an "absolute" number (0-99 for instance). Thus, we don't really "know" where "reference" is, being that our scale doesn't reach a "0" number. Further, of course there is risk of running an amp into distortion, but with the "+dB" method across the board, the system doesn't have to "need" so much amplification to reach a satisfying or loud level. In other words, with all channels raised into the "+dB" range, it's nearly impossible to get the amp near "reference" wherever that would be, as it would be way too much juice -- hence, you're not getting a chance to introduce distortion. 



> The Speakers you use and the Amplifiers in the AVR can make it where when calibrating to 75 db's some or all Speakers are in the + range. Especially if using Large and/or inefficient Speakers and an Entry Level AVR.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I've heard this as well; I thought the "+/-" was based on distance from the measured speaker; in other words, like in Ayres' case, his room is ridiculously small as he describes it, so the processor set the speakers to the "-dB" range. 

I just don't like the "sound" of the speakers when they're in the negative range; it seems like they have to work much harder to reach a suitable volume. I understand the science behind this -- that they're calibrated to reach a reference standard and offer clean headroom when called upon during loud transients and such, but I can't get beyond the fact that I just like positive speaker trims. 

That said, I am considering re-calibrating the system using Audyssey once more, and will report back -- but I wanted more input as to people's opinions on Audyssey or not using it.


----------



## Osage_Winter

Kal Rubinson said:


> Few rooms have perfect acoustics unless they are purpose-designed and constructed by an acoustics expert. For all the rest of us, the faulty acoustics will change and "color" the sound in unfortunate ways. It is those changes that Audyssey is designed to correct as best it can.


Okay. But he was making it seem as if we're not really hearing or experiencing the actual lossless soundtracks if we're not running a room correction system like Audyssey; I didn't think not running the system was akin to watching a Dolby Digital or DTS-encoded film in Pro Logic II mode. 

Further, I have read varying reports that indicate Audyssey isn't actually "correcting" anything; it's basically attempting based on brief measurements to make one's speakers "sound better" in the particular room, but that it's all basically a guessing trick. I for one thought the Audyssey 2EQ in my 605 made my speaker suite sound like it was in a closed box, with lobbed-off highs and such. BUT, if Audyssey is doing more than this and I should be aware of that, I will re-consider re-running the program...



> I cannot imagine any valid reason.


I have discussed this in previous posts with others; also, it was a question specific to _that_ member's comments. 



> Well, there is no way to suggest any settings unless he is in your room and measures the performance. Every room is different.


I hadn't asked him to suggest settings -- I asked him questions about running the numbers the way I specifically do and if that's "throwing anything off" or such, and he replied with "ALL these speaker settings are a MATTER OF PREFERENCE"...he didn't even suggest that they should be BALANCED or CALIBRATED...

That was my point. 



> BTW, using 2EQ is better than not using 2EQ.


This is getting more in line of what I wanted to know -- can you elaborate here a bit please? Why do you feel this way? Aside from distance settings and attempting to peg the channel volumes and EQ the speakers, what else is the system doing that allows it to be recommended over not using 2EQ with no EQ?


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Having your Speakers level matched is important for proper sound effects and Speaker Steering. Note, you can temporarily boost your CC by selecting the Channel Select Button on the RC and boosting the levels. The levels will return to what they are under the Speaker Setup upon Power Cycling. Also. DD/DTS is also setup for 75db Test Tones and a 0db Reference Level. It is not just a THX thing.

2EQ is better than no Audyssey at all. While 2EQ does not have as much Processing Power as MultEQ and MultEQ XT/Pro, it is still a worthwhile system. 2EQ still corrects anomalies in the Time Domain and Frequency Response. If you do not like the SQ, simply turn it off. However, most people and many Professional Reviewers prefer it over no EQ at all. However, whatever floats your Boat...
JJ


----------



## Osage_Winter

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Having your Speakers level matched is important for proper sound effects and Speaker Steering. Note, you can temporarily boost your CC by selecting the Channel Select Button on the RC and boosting the levels. The levels will return to what they are under the Speaker Setup upon Power Cycling.


Yes; the speakers are balanced in my system even though they are in the "+dB" range and I know that with my AVR, I can boost individual speaker settings temporarily by using the remote's buttons and that it resets after power off. I keep my levels permanently set though. 



> Also. DD/DTS is also setup for 75db Test Tones and a 0db Reference Level. It is not just a THX thing.


Okay; but what I am saying is that my AVR doesn't have a relative volume scale because it isn't THX certified -- so it only goes 0 to 99 in readout. There is no "0" to refer to. My comments regarding DTS and Dolby Digital had more to do with what the other member said regarding the fact that without using Audyssey, Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks are akin to listening to them in Pro Logic II which I just don't agree with. 



> 2EQ is better than no Audyssey at all. While 2EQ does not have as much Processing Power as MultEQ and MultEQ XT/Pro, it is still a worthwhile system. 2EQ still corrects anomalies in the Time Domain and Frequency Response. If you do not like the SQ, simply turn it off. However, most people and many Professional Reviewers prefer it over no EQ at all. However, whatever floats your Boat...
> JJ


Thank you -- this is more of what I wanted to know through the creation of the thread; can you give me some more information regarding "correcting the anomalies in the time domain" and such? How is this better than just not running any EQ and manually adjusting everything in the 605?


----------



## Ares

I like Audyssey MultEQ it sounds better than not having it on, but the way it set the speakers I have to crank the receiver to -10dB to hear anything at least for TV viewing and -20db for movies and music. When I run Audyssey these are the numbers I get.

Front Left -8.0dB
Front Right -7.5dB
Center -7.5dB
Rear Left -8.5dB
Rear Right -8.0dB
Sub -2.0dB

I feel I may be pushing the receiver harder than I need too.


----------



## Jungle Jack

Ares said:


> I like Audyssey MultEQ it sounds better than not having it on, but the way it set the speakers I have to crank the receiver to -10dB to hear anything at least for TV viewing and -20db for movies and music. When I run Audyssey these are the numbers I get.
> 
> Front Left -8.0dB
> Front Right -7.5dB
> Center -7.5dB
> Rear Left -8.5dB
> Rear Right -8.0dB
> Sub -2.0dB
> 
> I feel I may be pushing the receiver harder than I need too.


Hello,
You really should not be worried about pushing your AVR. Especially when all of your Speakers are attenuated to that amount. Really does speak to the efficiency of the Speakers and the references you have made about the size of your room.

While most do not listen at Reference, a quality AVR is designed to handle continuous playback at Reference.
And considering you are still 10 db's below Reference, you really are fine. Couple the fact you have a very high quality Subwoofer and I assume are crossing over all Speakers at 80 Hz and you really should not be damaging your Denon in any way. Only if there were Shutdowns or compression would I be concerned.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Kal Rubinson

Osage_Winter said:


> Secondly, with regard to the "+" dB settings on an AVR or processor, I had always been taught, from the moment I entered this hobby (of course, these were based on others' preferences which I happened to take to) that all speakers, regardless of room, can be set to the, say, "+6dB" setting in the processor's setup menu, with the center being set to say "+8dB" for dialogue compensation. The sub was always a matter of taste or when it started to show problems at a high volume (like my PSW350 does) as far as what dB to set it at.


Why? Can you offer any justification as to why it will sound any different from setting all the speakers to 0db and the center to +2dB? 



> All of this, of course, is dependent on the sweet spot being ABSOLUTELY equidistant from each speaker (in other words, +6dB for the two mains, +8dB for the center and +6 dB for the surrounds unless one is really close to your ear)...if you're not seated between all the speakers, this setup won't work. Also, this will NOT yield "reference" standard volumes or anything of the sort; if accuracy is what you're after in a THX-kind of environment and have the certified gear, this "+" dB theory may not work in your room.


This will rarely work in any room as it does not take into consideration that each of the speakers is, of necessity, in a different acoustic environment due to its different location.



> Even in a very small room like you describe of yours, the "+" dB setup like I do can work regardless of room size because it just means you won't be turning your master volume up much, and it will "seem" like you have a lot more amp power left to go if you want to really rock out...:T


Explanation, please.


----------



## Jungle Jack

Osage_Winter said:


> Yes; the speakers are balanced in my system even though they are in the "+dB" range and I know that with my AVR, I can boost individual speaker settings temporarily by using the remote's buttons and that it resets after power off. I keep my levels permanently set though.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay; but what I am saying is that my AVR doesn't have a relative volume scale because it isn't THX certified -- so it only goes 0 to 99 in readout. There is no "0" to refer to. My comments regarding DTS and Dolby Digital had more to do with what the other member said regarding the fact that without using Audyssey, Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks are akin to listening to them in Pro Logic II which I just don't agree with.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you -- this is more of what I wanted to know through the creation of the thread; can you give me some more information regarding "correcting the anomalies in the time domain" and such? How is this better than just not running any EQ and manually adjusting everything in the 605?


,
Audyssey uses FIR Filters as opposed to Parabolic Filters which are used in most other EQ's for their EQ Solutions. This is how Audyssey corrects FR issues and Time Domain. Again, if you like what it does for you, great. If not, turn it off.

Bummer that your Volume goes from 0-99 as opposed to being setup for a Reference Level. I do not have very much experience with the 605 or know many people who use one. Hopefully, you will be able to get a 700 Series Onkyo or higher. The TX-SR707 is currently available at Accessories4less for 449 (899 MSRP) and would really be a major step forward. However, though you do not agree, I would sell your BDP-83 and 605 and get a TX-N1007 or 3007. I realize I am getting nowhere with this, but I still think it would be the best play. Oh well


----------



## Kal Rubinson

Osage_Winter said:


> As for the distances, you could be right -- but is there a difference between what Audyssey is setting in terms of distances and what one would achieve with a tape measure? I've always just set the distances according to and accurately based on tape measure readings.


That works for every speaker except many subwoofers due to the additional latency of their internal electronics. OTOH, Audyssey has always duplicated what I get with a tape measure on all the non-subwoofer channels.


----------



## Kal Rubinson

Osage_Winter said:


> ...............but with the "+dB" method across the board, the system doesn't have to "need" so much amplification to reach a satisfying or loud level.


Sorry to say but that is nonsense unless you are using non-standard terminology. 



> I just don't like the "sound" of the speakers when they're in the negative range; it seems like they have to work much harder to reach a suitable volume. I understand the science behind this -- that they're calibrated to reach a reference standard and offer clean headroom when called upon during loud transients and such, but I can't get beyond the fact that I just like positive speaker trims.


I strongly doubt that you can do so under controlled conditions.


----------



## Ares

Is there any negative effects to raising the speaker levels let's use my case as an example,

Front Left -8.0dB change to -0.5dB
Front Right -7.5dB change to 0.0dB
Center -7.5dB change to 0.0 dB
Rear Left -8.5dB change to -1.0dB
Rear Right -8.0dB change to -0.5
Sub -2.0dB change to +6.0dB


​


----------



## Osage_Winter

Ares said:


> I like Audyssey MultEQ it sounds better than not having it on, but the way it set the speakers I have to crank the receiver to -10dB to hear anything at least for TV viewing and -20db for movies and music.


_THAT'S_ why I set the speakers into the "+dB" range and use Onkyo's IntelliVolume...


----------



## Osage_Winter

Kal Rubinson said:


> Why? Can you offer any justification as to why it will sound any different from setting all the speakers to 0db and the center to +2dB?


The only thing that I can offer as to MY personal preference and to how it benefits ME is that at +6 and +8, I don't have to crank the master volume as high -- the same thing Ayres is describing with his system. 



> This will rarely work in any room as it does not take into consideration that each of the speakers is, of necessity, in a different acoustic environment due to its different location.


I explained to him, and admitted, that this will in no way yield "scientifically accurate" results -- but that it will allow greater punch at lower volumes. 



> Explanation, please.


I've done that, several times.


----------



## Osage_Winter

Jungle Jack said:


> ,
> Audyssey uses FIR Filters as opposed to Parabolic Filters which are used in most other EQ's for their EQ Solutions. This is how Audyssey corrects FR issues and Time Domain. Again, if you like what it does for you, great. If not, turn it off.
> 
> Bummer that your Volume goes from 0-99 as opposed to being setup for a Reference Level. I do not have very much experience with the 605 or know many people who use one. Hopefully, you will be able to get a 700 Series Onkyo or higher. The TX-SR707 is currently available at Accessories4less for 449 (899 MSRP) and would really be a major step forward. However, though you do not agree, I would sell your BDP-83 and 605 and get a TX-N1007 or 3007. I realize I am getting nowhere with this, but I still think it would be the best play. Oh well


The fact that you did not know that the 605 didn't offer a relative volume scale concerns me with all the advice you have been giving me in addition to your insistence that the 605 is and was a great "entry level" receiver (when you just admitted you don't know many people who own one). This is a bit mysterious. But, alas, you feel you're "getting nowhere with this" because I don't simply take your advice immediately of selling off my OPPO when all I am saying is I would prefer not to and find funds to get a better AVR.


----------



## Osage_Winter

Kal Rubinson said:


> Sorry to say but that is nonsense unless you are using non-standard terminology.


Sure, it seems like "nonsense" from your perspective -- but again, I gave my reasons for preferring positive trim adjustments. I suppose I am using non-standard terminology, but we've already established that there are people participating in this thread that don't even know the Onkyo 605 in question doesn't offer a relative volume scale in which to achieve "0" as a reference level -- so what's the difference where my absolute level lies? 



> I strongly doubt that you can do so under controlled conditions.


Do what?


----------



## Jungle Jack

Ares said:


> Is there any negative effects to raising the speaker levels let's use my case as an example,
> 
> Front Left -8.0dB change to -0.5dB
> Front Right -7.5dB change to 0.0dB
> Center -7.5dB change to 0.0 dB
> Rear Left -8.5dB change to -1.0dB
> Rear Right -8.0dB change to -0.5
> Sub -2.0dB change to +6.0dB
> 
> 
> ​


Hello,
There should not be any issues with doing so. It just changes what the Reference Level will be to a lower volume level. As your Model is not super powerful, just make sure to listen for any signs of compression or strain if listening at -10 or above. Otherwise, you should be golden.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Osage_Winter

Ares said:


> Is there any negative effects to raising the speaker levels let's use my case as an example,
> 
> Front Left -8.0dB change to -0.5dB
> Front Right -7.5dB change to 0.0dB
> Center -7.5dB change to 0.0 dB
> Rear Left -8.5dB change to -1.0dB
> Rear Right -8.0dB change to -0.5
> Sub -2.0dB change to +6.0dB
> 
> 
> ​


Ayres,

Instead of what you are suggesting here, where the levels are still in the "-" range, try what I suggested -- that is:

Front Left and Right: +6dB
Center: +8dB
Surrounds (IF THEY ARE EQUIDISTANT FROM THE LISTENING SPOT): +6dB
Sub: Where You Like

DO NOT make the surrounds any higher than the mains -- only drop one of them if it's closer to your ear than the other. Also, the mains at +6dB also assume that you are equidistant from the front channels.


----------



## Osage_Winter

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> There should not be any issues with doing so. It just changes what the Reference Level will be to a lower volume level.


Right -- as has been my viewpoint all along. With my 605, it doesn't have a "reference point" per se to reach because there is no relative scale, but by bringing my channels up, it allows a louder experience at a lower volume _value_.


----------



## Kal Rubinson

Ares said:


> Is there any negative effects to raising the speaker levels let's use my case as an example,
> 
> Front Left -8.0dB change to -0.5dB
> Front Right -7.5dB change to 0.0dB
> Center -7.5dB change to 0.0 dB
> Rear Left -8.5dB change to -1.0dB
> Rear Right -8.0dB change to -0.5
> Sub -2.0dB change to +6.0dB
> 
> 
> ​


Nope. Should make no difference at all.


----------



## Kal Rubinson

Osage_Winter said:


> The only thing that I can offer as to MY personal preference and to how it benefits ME is that at +6 and +8, I don't have to crank the master volume as high -- the same thing Ayres is describing with his system.


Volume control setting is irrelevant since the power amp is doing the same job for the same output.



> I explained to him, and admitted, that this will in no way yield "scientifically accurate" results -- but that it will allow greater punch at lower volumes.


At lower settings of the VC, perhaps, but not at lower volumes. 



> I've done that, several times.


Nope. You have described what you do but you have not explained why it makes a difference.


----------



## Kal Rubinson

Osage_Winter said:


> Do what?


Tell the difference between those two sets of settings.


----------



## Osage_Winter

Kal Rubinson said:


> Volume control setting is irrelevant since the power amp is doing the same job for the same output.


Again: For my preference, the settings of +6 and +8 yield louder output at a lower volume display value. 



> At lower settings of the VC, perhaps, but not at lower volumes.


Perhaps. I never got the volume beyond what I perceive as "ear splitting" or even close. My point was relegated to lower volume discussions. 



> Nope. You have described what you do but you have not explained why it makes a difference.


They're MY preferences. I explained to Ayres why putting them on "+" dB settings would allow the audio to "seem" louder at a lower volume number.


----------



## Osage_Winter

Kal Rubinson said:


> Tell the difference between those two sets of settings.


Are you talking about quasi-blindfolded type tests in controlled settings? Of course not. That's obvious. But sitting in the sweet spot, looking at your display's readout and noticing that you do not need to crank a volume knob up into the highest region of a processor's range in order to get satisfying volume out of it is a gain to some. This issue has been brought up ad nauseum on forums like bluray.com; I'm not the only one who prefers this kind of method.

And again, we're dealing with a system on my 605 that doesn't allow for relative volume balancing; what's the difference what number I prefer seeing on my display at a lower readout? My AVR's processor only goes from 0 to 99 in readout.


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## Kal Rubinson

Osage_Winter said:


> Again: For my preference, the settings of +6 and +8 yield louder output at a lower volume display value.
> 
> Perhaps. I never got the volume beyond what I perceive as "ear splitting" or even close. My point was relegated to lower volume discussions.
> 
> They're MY preferences. I explained to Ayres why putting them on "+" dB settings would allow the audio to "seem" louder at a lower volume number.


OK. So what you are saying is that your ploy makes the sound louder with lower volume control settings. If you bump up all the speaker trim levels by 8dB, then you will get the same overall volume output at a volume control setting that is 8dB lower.

Is that it? If so, what is the point?


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## Kal Rubinson

Osage_Winter said:


> Are you talking about quasi-blindfolded type tests in controlled settings? Of course not. That's obvious. But sitting in the sweet spot, looking at your display's readout and noticing that you do not need to crank a volume knob up into the highest region of a processor's range in order to get satisfying volume out of it is a gain to some.


Self delusion. (There are exceptions if the trim levels are so low as to prevent the amplification chain from achieving adequate output but you indicated that is not the case here.)


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## Osage_Winter

Kal Rubinson said:


> OK. So what you are saying is that your ploy makes the sound louder with lower volume control settings. If you bump up all the speaker trim levels by 8dB, then you will get the same overall volume output at a volume control setting that is 8dB lower.
> 
> Is that it? If so, what is the point?


Never mind -- and relax. This isn't a "ploy." :sarcastic:


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## Osage_Winter

Kal Rubinson said:


> Self delusion. (There are exceptions if the trim levels are so low as to prevent the amplification chain from achieving adequate output but you indicated that is not the case here.)


Delusion? Ploys? Did I miss something? When did this forum turn into a deluge into the psychological edge of home theater analysis?


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## recruit

I think this has been discussed long enough with most bases covered so closing.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
John did what I should have done hours ago on Sunday by Locking the Thread. I understand that not all people are going to setup their HT the same way, but there are guidelines that really are there to get the most realistic HT Experience.

I personally believe that Audyssey has been a huge development in HT. Especially when using MultEQ or MultEQ XT. And ideally, Audyssey Pro which can only be done by Audyssey Trained Professional Installers. Some MultEQ XT AVR/SSP's can be upgraded to Pro.

However, the discussion which really went in circles was the subject of boosting the gain to have it sound louder at lower Volume Levels. As opposed to having Audyssey or using an SPL Meter to Calibrate each Speaker to 75 db's. While some might prefer their HT seeming to sound louder at an lower Volume Level, it really does change what the true Reference Level is. That is the Level which the DVD/BD was Designed to be played back at. 

What is ironic is if the OP had an AVR equipped with Audyssey Volume, he might not have felt the need to add so much gain to his AVR as it is designed to give a fuller sound at levels below Reference.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Ricci

Osage_Winter said:


> Right -- as has been my viewpoint all along. With my 605, it doesn't have a "reference point" per se to reach because there is no relative scale, but by bringing my channels up, it allows a louder experience at a lower volume _value_.





Osage_Winter said:


> And again, we're dealing with a system on my 605 that doesn't allow for relative volume balancing; what's the difference what number I prefer seeing on my display at a lower readout? My AVR's processor only goes from 0 to 99 in readout.


Yes your 605 does...
It does not matter in the least what your main volume on your display says or whether it has a 0. When you run the speaker calibration routine to adjust the channel volumes using the readout of your SPL meter, the reciever automatically locks itself at a specified output volume for the pink noise and sets the displayed volume at a certain level 0, -20, 55 or whatever. It doesn't matter where it is, just that *that* is your REF level. You can spin the dial while the pink noise is going and the volume will not increase. Whatever that # is that it sets the volume to during the pink noise speaker calibration routine is that units REF level set by the manufacturer. *ALL* recievers that I've had experience with operate in this manner. You set all of your channel volumes to correspond to 75db or whatever deviation from there that you wish to for the SW and CC due to personal preference. 

If you are not using an spl meter to set your channel volumes relative to each other then you are shooting in the dark and have no way of knowing where you are in relation to REF level or the channels in relation to each other. 

If you do calibrate with an spl meter and then decide to goose up all of the channel levels by +8db or +10db or whatever overall, then you are simply changing the REF level volume to be a corresponding amount lower on the volume control setting. It *in no way* changes the loading on the reciever or amplifiers, because there are 2 volume controls involved. The main one and the individual channel level controls inside the recievers speaker management. You are trading one for the other. *The voltage coming out of the amplifier into the speakers remains the same for the same spl levels achieved as before.* If you still prefer to goose up the individual channels levels for whatever personal reason you can still maintain calibration and know where REF level is. 

I myself change the REF level setting on my Pioneer, because it defaults to -18db which seems sort of arbitrary, so I calibrate my speakers 3db low and switched it to -15db. 





Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I understand that not all people are going to setup their HT the same way, but there are guidelines that really are there to get the most realistic HT Experience.
> 
> JJ


:T 

Personal taste being what it is... There are still guidelines that should be a good starting platform prior to deviating.


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## Ricci

Sorry...Did not see that the thread was closed already...:doh:


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