# HD DVD Losing More Ground?



## SteveCallas

Target to only carry Blue Ray

First Blockbuster and now Target. I don't really know who buys their electronics from Target , but quite a few must if they have maintained an electronics section for this many years. I wonder who will be next to sell out to Sony? BB, CC, or Walmart would definitely stop to the war in its tracks. Even more reason for me to continue sitting this oneout for now I guess :yawn:


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## ACGREEN

Frankly, the sooner a format dominates the better. Blu-Ray seems to be the better format. Hopefully this won't turn into the Beta vs VHS with the lesser format winning out in the marketplace.


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## SteveB

I don't buy electronics at Target but I have bought a lot of dvds there. Haven't looked for hd but I guess no I won't need to look.


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## wbassett

I have both players and my verdict is still out on which format is 'better'. I've seen movies in both formats that were mind blowing in their image quality and sound, and others that honestly... I couldn't tell the difference between it and an upconverted SDVD.

Sony owns movie studios and has more control over what format movies are released in. I do see a potential lawsuit as a last straw for Toshiba againts Sony if things start going down hill for them. (Think Netscape vs MicroSoft and the monopoly lawsuit that was filed)

Right now though, most of the movies I like and want in High Def are on HD DVD. I'm not saying that won't change with future releases, just that my personal movie preferences are more along the lines of what is out on HD DVD.

I think the format war is far from over. As much as people keep saying that Sony has more movies, the number of titles per format isn't as lopsided as a lot of people think. I personally feel that price is going to be the deciding factor. When a high def player gets to the price that people casually do an impulse buy, or when people start picking up a second player for the den or bedroom- that is the format that will win. Why do I think that when Sony controls so many studios and Toshiba just makes players? Money. The studios will want to tap into which ever player is the most widely owned and start getting money from that demographic. It could be Bluray, could be HD DVD. Right now though HD DVD seems to be getting closer to the impulse purchase price and by Black Friday I wouldn't be surprised to see A2's for under $150. Actually, I bet they will be well under $150 but they will also be those limited deals where you have to wait in a line at 4:00AM and fight the crowds.

Either way though I'm out of the format war and am thoroughly enjoying being format neutral and able to just buy a movie I like no matter what format it is in. For others that don't want to throw down that much on players when one is sure to go belly up- look through the list of movies in both formats, specifically the exclusives. Which ever format has the most movies you like, go with that format and then enjoy everything else upconverted. Or wait until Bluray gets its 2.0 release out and by then the prices will be down even more for both formats.

Personally if someone is thinking about spending $200 on an upconverting DVD player, why not just get the A2 and also be able to watch High Def flicks.

So what if your player ends up being the one that 'loses'? By then you'll be able to pick up a player in the other format for a fraction of the current price, and all those titles out there in the format that loses will certainly end up discounted dramatically. The only downside I see to that is years down the road when that player finally dies, but by then we'll have a totally different format. My prediction is credit card size media cards, but we still have a few years before that!


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## Bob_99

From my point of interest, I can spend $20 on a really good movie (rare) but prefer to find it on sale for $16 or $17 but I almost always buy older DVDs that are two for $20 or end up in the bargain bin. Some of those bargains are decent movies. But to get to the point, I just don't know how Blu-Ray or HD prices will affect my purchasing future DVDs as I don't want to go beyond that price point for a DVD and that's what will decide what type of high def player I purchase or if I purchase one. I may decide differently down the line but for now if the prices for the DVDs stay above $20, then for me perhaps it's time to consider NetFlix.

Bob


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## bobgpsr

Sony has just paid for an endcap in Target stores. This is the very first standalone high def optical player Target has offered in the B&M stores -- they have offered both kinds online. Target will still sell the XBOX 360 HD DVD Player add on and also HD DVD's. 

Toshiba is paying for endcaps at Best Buy and Circuit City.


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## wbassett

Bob_99 said:


> From my point of interest, I can spend $20 on a really good movie (rare) but prefer to find it on sale for $16 or $17 but I almost always buy older DVDs that are two for $20 or end up in the bargain bin. Some of those bargains are decent movies. But to get to the point, I just don't know how Blu-Ray or HD prices will affect my purchasing future DVDs as I don't want to go beyond that price point for a DVD and that's what will decide what type of high def player I purchase or if I purchase one. I may decide differently down the line but for now if the prices for the DVDs stay above $20, then for me perhaps it's time to consider NetFlix.
> 
> Bob


And why should you? I still buy SDVDs at a ratio of probably 10:1 compared to High Def DVDs. I shop Hollywood Video and Block Buster previously viewed movies, Walmart, and Netflix even sells previously viewed movies all at great prices. Many of which aren't even out on either High Def. 

There will be a day when everything is High Definition, but look at how long VHS hung around even after DVD was the standard. For at least a decade more people will still have regular DVD players too, and by then everything will be changing or already changed to a new format. High Def DVD players will then be where SDVD players are now. 

I love the low prices of DVDs now, I just wish I could find more SuperBit ones because they look incredible upconverted. I also love the High Def format, but I only get certain movies, the rest are still regular DVDs. I'm not sure if you know this, but Walmart, Target, and Amazon do have both HD DVD and Bluray titles for $20. It's not a big list, but they are starting to show up.


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## SteveCallas

I don't think high def dvds will wash over the masses like dvd eventually did. At the same time, I don't think it will be a niche market like SACD or dvd audio. I think it will be somewhere inbetween. I say this because upconverted dvds still look great, almost as good as some high def dvds like you just stated, so few people will be willing to repurchase their dvd collection in a high def dvd format. That was not the case with VHS vs DVD. DVD was so clearly superior, both in picture and sound (anamorphic widescreen in and of itself was a deal maker), that most dvd player owners were willing to repurchase their old favorites. 

So I think the high def dvd purchases - when the formats become more widely accepted - will be primarily focused on new, yet to be released films, and thus have maybe 1/5 the sales that dvd did.


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## Bob_99

Bill,



> I'm not sure if you know this, but Walmart, Target, and Amazon do have both HD DVD and Bluray titles for $20. It's not a big list, but they are starting to show up.


I did not know that. Thanks for the info and I hope that you are correct about regular DVDs being around for a while. Also the Superbit ones are nice and every once in a while I find some great deals on them.

Bob


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## Sonnie

There are several HD-DVD and Blu-ray titles in the Shack DVD Store for $17-20.

Just a couple of examples:

Blood Diamond [HD DVD] is only $18.50

The Fifth Element (Remastered) [Blu-ray] is only $19.49

The Patriot (Extended Cut) [Blu-ray] for $17.00

Some are even less if don't mind used.


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## wbassett

Good point Sonnie, I have to start shopping through the Shack! Those are some great prices.


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## Bob_99

Well, according to CNET this morning, some specific Japanese movie makers have selected Blu-Ray as their preferred high def media. I guess HD is really going to suffer now.



Bob


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## wbassett

Paramount announced the HD boxed set of Star Trek on HD DVD. There are Trek fans that will buy a player just to get that set.

Wasn't LOTR said to be HD DVD or is that going to be both formats?


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## Bob_99

I have not heard anything about LOTR but I am a bit surprised that it hasn't been released as of this time. I wonder what they are waiting for? Since the extended version is what motivated me to jump into the home theater in the first place, the high def version will probably be a call for a major upgrade.

:spend::spend::spend:
:bigsmile:

Bob


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## bobgpsr

wbassett said:


> Paramount announced the HD boxed set of Star Trek on HD DVD. There are Trek fans that will buy a player just to get that set.


The boxed set is of Combos. So a normal standard DVD player can be used also. But >$200 for just one season! :spend::scared: True trekkies will likely bite though, considering what happened at the Christie's auction of ST material for Paramount last year.


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## wbassett

bobgpsr said:


> The boxed set is of Combos. So a normal standard DVD player can be used also. But >$200 for just one season! :spend::scared: True trekkies will likely bite though, considering what happened at the Christie's auction of ST material for Paramount last year.


Yeah my brother was telling me about that price too. Paramount is a pig when it comes to Trek. The original sets of STNG were $100 a season when they first came out. 

I hear they completely redid the special effects and got an orchestra to rerecord all the music, they redid the intro, went with Dolby Digital, so aside from the price it sounds like a nice set.

There were people that bought laser disc players just to get the original series on LD, so this exclusive will bring out some new HD DVD owners.

The big one for BD is going to be this Christmas when the Spiderman box set of all three movies comes out, and POC 3 should be out by then too, not to mention the Fantastic Four. As much as I like HD DVD they need to get some new big titles out.


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## MrPorterhouse

SteveCallas said:


> Target to only carry Blue Ray
> 
> First Blockbuster and now Target. I don't really know who buys their electronics from Target , but quite a few must if they have maintained an electronics section for this many years. I wonder who will be next to sell out to Sony? BB, CC, or Walmart would definitely stop to the war in its tracks. Even more reason for me to continue sitting this oneout for now I guess :yawn:


I can't wait for Target to stock more Blu-rays. I went to 2 Targets today to buy "300" on Blu-ray for their advertised $24.99 price, and nothing. No Blu-ray, or HD DVD for that matter, to be found. Target still only stocks 15 titles on each format, so I look forward to October when Target expands its Blu-ray selection.


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## SteveCallas

I'm not into the series at all, but I would imagine that Star Wars would play a hefty role in who buys what kind of player. Also, don't underestimate the power of Disney Pixar films - isn't Finding Nemo something like the highest selling dvd?


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## Sonnie

MrPorterhouse said:


> I can't wait for Target to stock more Blu-rays. I went to 2 Targets today to buy "300" on Blu-ray for their advertised $24.99 price, and nothing. No Blu-ray, or HD DVD for that matter, to be found. Target still only stocks 15 titles on each format, so I look forward to October when Target expands its Blu-ray selection.


Why even fool with Target... 300 [Blu-ray] for $23.95. Order another title to get you over $25 and get free shipping. Not only do you save a few bucks on price and taxes, but gasoline as well. :T


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## Bob_99

> isn't Finding Nemo something like the highest selling dvd?


It may be but I don't think anyone watches it. The high sales are probably due to the sub enthusiasts who buy it for the knocking on the tank scene.

:heehee:

Bob


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## John Simpson

To date, I've bought nothing but Blu-ray, simply because we have a PS3. I didn't really care which format eventuated as the winner, just hoped it would happen relatively soon.

If I were a betting man, I'd now have to tip Blu-ray. With the release of the two Denon models (one just a _transport_, which is wonderful news for people with high-end processors), I think all the manufacturers will have to sit up and take notice. Denon has a massive international following, and doesn't adopt new technology lightly.

I wonder where this would leave the HDDVD-only studios?


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## wbassett

I still see this as a tennis match of sorts... the ball keeps going back and forth...

Toshiba was starting to look like they were in trouble at the beginning of the year. Sony sales were up with the PS3 and BD was riding a high. Then Toshiba offered free movies, and the two big box stores threw in some more free movies. BD then had a free movie deal, and Toshiba did a price reduction and the big box stores had another free movie offer. Toshiba sales went up dramatically.

Bluray then debuted their next generation models and did a slight price cut. Panasonic threw in free movies that were right in the box, no waiting like with the Toshiba deal. Toshiba countered with another price reduction.

Now Toshiba announced three new models, the HD A3, the HD 30, and HD 35, all of which will have an MSRP under $500, and we are starting to see the interactivity potential of the high def formats. Granted it's gimmick more than anything right now, but it is a step in the right direction and indication of things to come. 

Samsung is coming out with a dual format player, which hopefully will be a better (not a crippled HD DVD player) than the LG model that isn't doing well. 

One thing I think is hurting Bluray right now is that they still don't have players that are fully compliant with their own standards. Some players will be able to be updated via firmware releases, others will not. They all will still be able to play movies, but people don't like the idea of paying top dollar for a player that may not have all the features and functions available. Granted not everyone will use all the features right away, however when a person spends $600 or more on something they do tend to want it to fully functional, or know that it can be updated down the road. I personally think there should be a sticker on the boxes of current models that won't be 2.0 compliant or able to be updated to it.

Toshiba made a big mistake in my opinion by not adding 1080p output to the A3. I personally do not see any major difference in playback between my A2 with 1080i output and my PS3 BD player at 1080p. It all depends on the content and the quality of the transfer. Plus I tend to feel that HD DVD is making better use of disc space with their codecs while BD is still using mpeg2 which requires more storage space. The disc capacity argument is a wash in my opinion, but the public has a mental stigma and believes 1080i to be inferior (which technically it is, but not vastly) and I hear the argument about disc space and movie content all the time.

The PS3 got a price cut by $100, but they are also discontinuing the current model. There will be a replacement that will hopefully be even better, but we do know that there are some changes being made to the console. Expect the current generation of HD DVD players to all go on sale in the wake of the new models coming out in a few months, and Black Friday will be big for both formats, but I see HD DVD coming out ahead and predict $150 prices, or even lower for the current A2 model.

It's almost like politics when it comes to the format war. I see companies signing on for one format over the other and in some cases it does seem like a bias. One magazine add boasts of ultra high quality HDMI cables perfect for high definition, and then in parenthesis says 'Bluray', as if that is the only format. Block Buster announced they will carry Bluray movies, which is swaying some people and convincing others that the format war is over... I think it's going to be around for quite awhile to come...

I am format neutral even though this may have seemed slanted towards HD DVD. Both formats still have a long way to go, and both are making strides. I firmly believe though that the format that breaks the price barrier to where people casually do an impulse purchase or start buying second players for bedrooms, dens, gifts for family members... that format will ultimately win. Sony doesn't have a good track record so far with trying to push formats and they could be doing better and have learned from some mistakes of the past. For instances since they own movie studios and control format distribution for some of the most popular movie titles (and even more coming) they could easily cut their prices in half and make their money back on movie sales, much like how the cell phone companies give away phones because they make their money on the service contracts. 

Toshiba needs to make all their players 1080p if for no other reason than the public believes it is the only way to go and anything else is a compromise, which in a way it is and there is no reason the A3 shouldn't have been 1080p. Plus HD DVD needs to get more studios on board.

So I personally don't think either format is losing ground. It's like a war where the front line keeps shifting back and forth, and depending on when you look at it, either side could be said as 'winning' at any given time...


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## MrPorterhouse

Sonnie said:


> Why even fool with Target... 300 [Blu-ray] for $23.95. Order another title to get you over $25 and get free shipping. Not only do you save a few bucks on price and taxes, but gasoline as well. :T


I saw the Shackstore and its a fine deal, but couldn't get the go ahead from the wife to buy 2 movies to get "free" shipping, so she surprised me on Tuesday when she bought me 300 on Blu-ray from Target and Madden 08 for the PS3 with the $10 coupon at Blockbuster. Needless to say, Tuesday was a very good day!


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## Owen Bartley

How long did the VHS - Beta battle go on? I can't really see a clear ending for either format in this one, and both have been out for a while. Actually, while I'm drawing comparisons, what were the issues that were the real downfall of Beta, and which companies were on the losing side back then? Does anyone know offhand?


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## Bob_99

Wikipedia has a good summary at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betamax

Bob


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## Mitch G

Blu-Ray is doing a good job of marketing. But, they haven't delivered the cheap player yet which is what's keeping the war alive imo.
I think if they get their players down to the $250 or less mark soon, they'll bury HD-DVD. People scoff at the value of the Blockbuster announcement, but the convenience of being able to walk into a rental store on a whim and picking up a DVD is important. If the local shop only carries Blu-Ray and someone can pick up a Blu-Ray player for $250 or less, then folks are probably going to give it a go. 
(And as the people go that route even the HD-DVD-only studio(s) will switch.)

For the record I have HD-DVD - because it was cheap and because I'm able to rent my movies on line. But, I would like the freedom of walking into the local video store and renting what I want when I want.


Mitch


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## MrPorterhouse

Mitch G said:


> Blu-Ray is doing a good job of marketing. But, they haven't delivered the cheap player yet which is what's keeping the war alive imo.
> I think if they get their players down to the $250 or less mark soon, they'll bury HD-DVD. People scoff at the value of the Blockbuster announcement, but the convenience of being able to walk into a rental store on a whim and picking up a DVD is important. If the local shop only carries Blu-Ray and someone can pick up a Blu-Ray player for $250 or less, then folks are probably going to give it a go.
> (And as the people go that route even the HD-DVD-only studio(s) will switch.)
> 
> For the record I have HD-DVD - because it was cheap and because I'm able to rent my movies on line. But, I would like the freedom of walking into the local video store and renting what I want when I want.
> 
> 
> Mitch


Very Good Points. I, however, couldn't invest into HD DVD from the getgo because I just couldn't get past the industry support from both a hardware and software side in favor of Blu-ray. Yes, I'm paying a bit more for the Blu-ray hardware, and Yes, I'm still giving up Universal movies, but everything else I have with Blu-ray right now. For me, that support was too promising and it remains so today with Blu-ray looking stronger and stronger.


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## Hakka

From what I've read Blu Ray is doing better in the USA than it is in other places. I'm from Australia, the reason I don't have a Blu Ray player sitting next to my HD DVD player is the region coding and pricing. Blu ray movies are selling for $48 locally ($25 for a HD DVD). I can't import Blu Rays unless I also import a player, which then leaves me unable to play local releases. The Australian release catalog is nowhere near the amount of titles released in the US.
Blu Ray seems to have a bit more support from retailers, but its not a huge margin. 

So until something changes, its HD DVD and DVD for me.

Hakka.


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## MrPorterhouse

Wasn't there some larger retail electroncis store in Aussie that went Blu-ray exclusive?


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## Hakka

Yeah, some of the bigger retailers are only stocking blu ray software, some have both but in general blu rays are easier to find, but at $48 bucks each I dont care how freely available they are I aint gonna buy them. Both types of players are freely available, HD-E1 goes for aroud $700, HD-XE1 $1350, cheapest blu player is the 1st gen Samsung bdp-1000 at $1000 (the 1200 isn't out here yet) or the PS3 at $980.

I didn't mean in my above post that blu ray is doing bad in Australia, polls on the local forums indicate about 50:50 ownership Blu vs HDDVD. I have read articles and discussions that suggest USA/AUS/JAP are leaning towards Blu Ray while Europe is leaning toward HD DVD, with film distribution being handled by different studios in europe the are some titles on HD that are blu ray exclusive in USA/AUS/JAP. I don't know how accurate the info was, just what I read on some other forums. 

I think blu ray is a lot more appealing in the US than it is here though, due to the pricing issues and region coding. DVD pacific(US) have 387 titles listed in the blu ray section, the most I could find on an Australian site was 164. The same sites had 339 and 91 titles on HD DVD, but with no region coding it becomes a moot point.

Hakka.


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## Mitch G

Just saw (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070820/dueling_dvd_formats.html?.v=4) that Paramount and Dreamworks has decided to release exclusively in HD-DVD.
This is very interesting news, if you ask me, and somewhat surprising.

Mitch


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## wbassett

I think HD DVD is picking up more ground than losing it personally.

On a possitive note- My local Walmart, which isn't a Super Center started carrying both BD and HD DVD titles, I snagged 300 Saturday on HD DVD. 

Now I don't have to drive an hour, but they still don't have a big selection of either.


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## SteveCallas

Right, the past couple of days seem to show another shift back in favor of HD DVD. Just when I was thinking blue ray to seal the deal, the landscape changes again - this will never end :duh:


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## wbassett

Steve I almost see it like the ten year Iran/Iraq war... depending on when you check, the front line is always shifting and one month one side could be say is winning, the very next month the other side took all the ground back and gained some. Then it just keeps going back and forth.

Nothing is settled yet. If BD comes out with killer players for the next gen that will swing the tide again, but they seriously have to overcome the prices that HD DVD have set in order to really win in the long run, at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it! 

Personally, Sony should be adopting the cell phone ideology- give the phones away for free and make up the money on the service. Of course Sony can't give players away, but with the amount of studio control they have, they certainly could undercut Toshiba and make up their money on Bluray DVD sales. Of course that would be a power play and we all know Sony doesn't use their muscle to try and influence anything now do they?


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## Bob_99

It appears that the battle between Blue-Ray and HD will last a bit longer than VHS vs Beta. I believe it was the cost factor that swung it to VHS so I wonder if that will be the case again. Lastly, are there any opinions as to whether this is a concern to only HT enthusiasts or is the average person even aware of the differences?

Bob


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## Anthony

If my friends are any indication (not big AV junkies by any means) -- most people think there is no difference between BR and HD and are waiting for prices to come down to the $100 or $200 before they buy anything. Also, these are the same people who did not jump on DVD until discs were cheaper than $15 (some cheaper than $8).

****, most of them don't even own an HDTV yet, although many have been asking me for purchase advice for the next 6 months or so (probably after the holidays).

So as of now, it's an enthusiast's war. The winner will either kill off the other before the masses join the fray, or will be the one to bring the masses over to their side. Personally, I think it will be the latter.


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## wbassett

Bob a couple of months ago I was in a Super Walmart that sells both BD and HD DVD and woman asked me what was different about the movies. I explained it and she asked that since she had a high definition TV why it wouldn't work. There is still some confusion with the general population about the formats that's for sure.

I think if Black Friday doesn't shift the tides to the point of no return (which I don't think it will, but there will be some good sales that's for sure!) then this is going to go on for awhile with both formats.

One thing that will be interesting to see is in Europe HD DVD is doing exceptionally well and there are releases on HD DVD that are not available in the States. Will the US dictate the outcome or will there be a big picture look at everything and all countries? Who knows, but at least the movies in both formats are starting to become available at more and more Walmarts which I know I at least like.

I remember when DVDs first came out. You could only find a couple at Walmart and Block Buster, usually off in a corner somewhere hidden behind the rows of VHS tapes. What hurts things this time around is SDVD is extremely popular and definitely not going anywhere anytime soon like VHS did with DVD. Block Buster won't be replacing their inventory of DVDs with Bluray anytime soon, nor would they even think of doing that since it would exclude a large chunk of their customer base- not to mention all titles on DVD aren't even on either High Def format yet. I think if they were smart they would carry both formats to get their finger on the pulse of what consumers really want rather than go with marketing presentations. In the end it will be the consumers that really dictate if either format becomes a standard like SDVD did, at least that's my take on things.


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## SteveCallas

Well from all I have gathered up to now, including from a few friends who don't frequenct any forums, the difference between HD or Blue Ray and a well done dvd with proper upconversion is barely noticable. That's not what I wanted to hear. Upconverted dvds look great, but certain true 1080i shows look much, much better, both from my current DISH Network and previously Charter HD cable.


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## gsmollin

Owen Bartley said:


> How long did the VHS - Beta battle go on? I can't really see a clear ending for either format in this one, and both have been out for a while. Actually, while I'm drawing comparisons, what were the issues that were the real downfall of Beta, and which companies were on the losing side back then? Does anyone know offhand?


The format war went on for several years, and Betamax lost because Sony would not license _adult movie producers!_ :devil:


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## Anthony

That sounds familiar, again.

the adult film industry progressed several technologies before anyone else bought in:

Home cinema (the reel to reel projectors)
VHS (they embraced it quickly for the above reasons)
Internet (first industry to embrace commerce there and be hugely profitable)
DVD 

I don't know the status of them and HD-DVD (sorry guys, while it might not appear that way, I'm not an expert in the smut industry  ), but BluRay isn't giving them a choice . . . 

When is Sony going to learn that you have to welcome vices, not shun them?


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## MrPorterhouse

SteveCallas said:


> Well from all I have gathered up to now, including from a few friends who don't frequenct any forums, the difference between HD or Blue Ray and a well done dvd with proper upconversion is barely noticable.


It comes down to screen size. With small screens, there is no benefit to increasing the resolution because the screen can't resolve it. With large screens at close viewing distances, the resolution matters a great deal. The farther away you move from the big screen, the less the resolution matters. People who buy HDTVs for casual tv and movie watching generally don't get the top of the line 70"+ screen, but rather a tv in the 37"-55" range. On those smaller screens, you would have to be a trained expert to tell a difference between good HD upconverted DVD and true high definition. Average people can' see a difference at all, so why would they invest in the premium price for a player and the large premium price for the discs? They wouldn't, and they won't in great numbers. Its a slow adoption so there is plenty of time for this format war to loom and drag the entire industry to a lull.


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## Tommy

wbassett said:


> Is the adult industry really that big of a deal in this? I personally don't know anyone that has or even wants an HD DVD of this sort. It may be a big business but I can't see it being a major player in the outcome of the format war. Just my opinion though.


Actually the adult industry was the deciding factor in the betamax / vcr format wars. Adult industry is huge and why I personally dont think they will have the same effect and be the deciding factor in the current format war, I do think they are a very large part of it. 

Currently there is a release list for adult titles and I see about 25 titles that are exclusive to HD DVD.


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## Sonnie

Hey guys... let's not forget:



> There will be absolutely no pornography of any kind, no babe pics (not even with spoiler tags), which includes any pics of men or women not fully clothed from the neck down. We forbid words and phrases related to the same... *there should be absolutely no discussion related to the adult industry in any way what so ever.* Do not post links to any site that might in any way be deemed inappropriate. This is a home theater forum, let's keep it that way. Members may be banned for non-compliance and this may be without notice to the offender. It is our intentions to run an extremely respectable home theater forum.


Thanks!

EDIT: I just edited the rules to make it even more clear changing "this topic" to "the adult industry".


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## Tommy

MrPorterhouse said:


> It comes down to screen size. With small screens, there is no benefit to increasing the resolution because the screen can't resolve it. With large screens at close viewing distances, the resolution matters a great deal. The farther away you move from the big screen, the less the resolution matters. People who buy HDTVs for casual tv and movie watching generally don't get the top of the line 70"+ screen, but rather a tv in the 37"-55" range. On those smaller screens, you would have to be a trained expert to tell a difference between good HD upconverted DVD and true high definition. Average people can' see a difference at all, so why would they invest in the premium price for a player and the large premium price for the discs? They wouldn't, and they won't in great numbers. Its a slow adoption so there is plenty of time for this format war to loom and drag the entire industry to a lull.


I'd also agree with this and add a little bit more, although when I first viewed HD and/or BR on my plasma tv I did not see a picture that clearly shows the improvement however in current time after having been spoiled by HD & BR for the last year me entire family complains about PQ on any being watched that is not full high def quality.

Its amazing that even though when first viewed a difference did not stick out, it was more noticable when going without it afterwards


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## Anthony

Sorry Sonnie,
I was trying to keep it on topic as a business-model-only thing. Sony learning their lesson and that sort of thing.

AC


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## Sonnie

I think what Steve is eluding to is the vast difference between live HD shows and HD movies. You may not notice a huge difference between a good upconverted DVD and HD on some displays, but there is no doubt we all can notice a huge difference between a live HD football game and any other offering of that football game. HD really shines in sports events and live events.


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## Mitch G

Yeah, the difference between HD and SD-DVD isn't night and day like it is/was between VHS and DVD. And, so alot of people won't bother to upgrade their DVD players unless they need to (i.e. because movies they want to see aren't available in SD-DVD). But, this won't happen any time soon. So, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray will likely have a slow uptake as HDTV owners slowly decide to drop a few more dollars into their family room to take as best advantage of that fancy TV as they can.
That said, if $99 HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players (or maybe even $149) start showing up, I think even the most frugal HDTV owners will be willing to make the move seeing it as a small additional cost for the best viewing possible.


Mitch


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## Owen Bartley

I've just read a little bit more about the HD formats that worries me quite a bit, and if it is true, the group to do this correctly may put themselves significantly ahead of the other. I was reading a post over on the Outlaw Saloon about HDMI which spilled into HD hardware. I guess it boils down to the fact that discs can be authored in either "basic" or "advanced" modes (at least HD DVD can, and Blu Ray will have the advanced ability soon), and according to this post, any disc authored in advanced mode will have to be decoded in the player. This will have a huge impact on the role of the receiver in the future if it is true, in addition to the obvious importance of having more full-featured players. Someone please tell me I'm worrying over nothing.


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## Tommy

Owen Bartley said:


> I've just read a little bit more about the HD formats that worries me quite a bit, and if it is true, the group to do this correctly may put themselves significantly ahead of the other. I was reading a post over on the Outlaw Saloon about HDMI which spilled into HD hardware. I guess it boils down to the fact that discs can be authored in either "basic" or "advanced" modes (at least HD DVD can, and Blu Ray will have the advanced ability soon), and according to this post, any disc authored in advanced mode will have to be decoded in the player. This will have a huge impact on the role of the receiver in the future if it is true, in addition to the obvious importance of having more full-featured players. Someone please tell me I'm worrying over nothing.


Owen, this is actual beneficial to us consumers. If a studio was to put an advanced audio track on a movie, then would then have to worry which equipement users have and do they have the ability to decode it. This usually winds up getting the lowest track possibile with better chances that most can use it.

Mandatory requirements in HD DVD make it so that all HD DVD players must at least decode these audio options. Now HD supporting studios can put a trueHD track on every movie and know that all HD DVD players can decode it.


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## bobgpsr

Owen Bartley said:


> ...any disc authored in advanced mode will have to be decoded in the player. This will have a huge impact on the role of the receiver in the future if it is true, in addition to the obvious importance of having more full-featured players. Someone please tell me I'm worrying over nothing.


It turns out that the HD DVD spec gods (per Amir of Microsoft) are going to allow a raw bitstream player pass-thru option (as an option choice done by the end "audiophile" user from the default decode-in-player). Even for Advanced Authored Content discs. The new Onkyo players are going to have it as an option. Fairly solid hint from Toshiba Europe that the HD-XA2 & HD-XE1 Players (they have HDMI 1.3a) will also get this as an option in September.

Note that both the player and the receiver must have HDMI 1.3 to do this.

Remember that this is to be a user choice OPTION and not the default behavior.


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## Anthony

I hadn't heard that about the mandatory audio playback.

My player (A2) converts everything to DTS for playback on a 5.1 system, but I guess you're right, it still decodes the standard in-player.

I remember a mini-mess when DTS gained popularity and a lot of first gen DD receivers couldn't do it and almost nobody had direct 6 channel in. Then there were players that couldn't decode OR pass the information either. So you had to have a DTS capable player AND a DTS or direct 6ch receiver. Of course, that led to a lot of people upgrading, which I guess is good for the CE industry  

But this definitely simplifies things (aside from the format war, which will probably cripple mass acceptance).


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## Anthony

One other thing that I've noticed in this format war:

It seems we've dawned on the age of easy firmware updates. Not 5 years ago, firmware updates for hardware was an option only on very expensive gear and usually required a site visit or shipping to a repair facility.

Now it seems like user-updatable is becoming more mainstream. The Toshiba players do it and I imagine many others (BR and HD alike) will as well. Obviously not all features can be added or enabled by software alone, but it's a step in the right direction.

Not sure what it means, but it seems like another advanced "feature" that is becoming more available to the consumers via cheaper prices.


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## MrPorterhouse

Owen Bartley said:


> I've just read a little bit more about the HD formats that worries me quite a bit, and if it is true, the group to do this correctly may put themselves significantly ahead of the other. I was reading a post over on the Outlaw Saloon about HDMI which spilled into HD hardware. I guess it boils down to the fact that discs can be authored in either "basic" or "advanced" modes (at least HD DVD can, and Blu Ray will have the advanced ability soon), and according to this post, any disc authored in advanced mode will have to be decoded in the player. This will have a huge impact on the role of the receiver in the future if it is true, in addition to the obvious importance of having more full-featured players. Someone please tell me I'm worrying over nothing.


You are worrying over nothing critical. There are certain advantages to decoding in the player, and some interactive content really depends on this, but for nuts and bolts of the movie, it doesn't matter either way, player or receiver will work. I suspect that the majority of players will all decode all the advanced codecs soon, with maybe only the entry level players being shorted. Time will work things out here, just as it did with Dolby Digital and DTS in the DVD format.


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## Owen Bartley

Bob, will that passthrough allow receivers to decode the new formats if you prefer? Or will it be passing one of the lesser formats (ie not True HD or DTS Master)? I have to admit, I still like the idea of the receiver/processor being the brains and handling the bulk of the work in an AV system. It may not be the best, but it's what I'm used to, dammit! 

E: Thanks MrP, that's a little more assurance for me. I'm not too excited about extras right now, just the better quality audio and video, and as long as it gets delivered to me, I guess I don't really care what path it takes.


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## Tommy

Owen Bartley said:


> Bob, will that passthrough allow receivers to decode the new formats if you prefer? Or will it be passing one of the lesser formats (ie not True HD or DTS Master)? I have to admit, I still like the idea of the receiver/processor being the brains and handling the bulk of the work in an AV system. It may not be the best, but it's what I'm used to, dammit!
> 
> E: Thanks MrP, that's a little more assurance for me. I'm not too excited about extras right now, just the better quality audio and video, and as long as it gets delivered to me, I guess I don't really care what path it takes.


I'm had my calibrator set the audio settings up so I'm guessing here but I believe there are options in the player settings where you can tell it how you want the data handled and decoded


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## bobgpsr

Owen Bartley said:


> Bob, will that passthrough allow receivers to decode the new formats if you prefer? Or will it be passing one of the lesser formats (ie not True HD or DTS Master)?


By allowing "raw bitstream" passthru -- that means the player does nothing to what comes off of the disc after the audio track selection by the user of what to pick from what audio selections that are on the disc. It goes out untouched and unaltered, via HDMI 1.3 raw bitstream transport, of the new DD+, TrueHD, dts-HD HR and dts-HD MA codecs when the user chooses "raw bitstream".

With Advanced Content HD DVDs, the player must have the ability to decode the audio internally, mix with button sounds and HDi commentary audio and then send the audio on to the end user (LPCM via HDMI 1.1, analog multichannel audio or re-encoded with a legacy (DD or dts) lossy codec on S/PDIF (coax or optical Toslink).

But it is apparently allowed to, as a user OPTIONAL choice, send the selected audio track's "raw bitstream" to an external AVR/Pre-Pro via HDMI 1.3. Note that this is a deliberate user selected OPTIONAL choice from the player default as described above.

Amir (a VP at Microsoft) has said that this choice will be allowed by the DVD Forum.

I hope that this is clear enough. :nerd:


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## SteveCallas

MrPorterhouse said:


> It comes down to screen size. With small screens, there is no benefit to increasing the resolution because the screen can't resolve it. With large screens at close viewing distances, the resolution matters a great deal. The farther away you move from the big screen, the less the resolution matters. People who buy HDTVs for casual tv and movie watching generally don't get the top of the line 70"+ screen, but rather a tv in the 37"-55" range. On those smaller screens, you would have to be a trained expert to tell a difference between good HD upconverted DVD and true high definition. Average people can' see a difference at all, so why would they invest in the premium price for a player and the large premium price for the discs?


No....no, no, no. There is a *huge* difference in picture quality between something like HBO HD boxing, an NFL game in HD, or a Discovery HD special vs a properly upconverted dvd. You don't have to be a trained expert, it's clearly obvious to anyone who has seen both - very big difference.



Sonnie said:


> I think what Steve is eluding to is the vast difference between live HD shows and HD movies. You may not notice a huge difference between a good upconverted DVD and HD on some displays, but there is no doubt we all can notice a huge difference between a live HD football game and any other offering of that football game. HD really shines in sports events and live events.


Correct. We had this discussion in another thread and I think someone said it was due to the filtering and "after effects" put into movies. It seems like a pretty big waste to me though - a high definition dvd should theoretically have a pretty noticable advantage over HD programming, but I guess studios are passing it away currently by altering the images.


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## Owen Bartley

Thanks Bob, that was great info. I like to know these things. I've been slacking a lot on my technology reading lately and I guess I have a lot to catch up on. I'm really interested to see the next generation of hardware coming out. I saw a few manufacturers are rolling out some receivers that can decode the new HD formats, and they look pretty impressive.


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## MrPorterhouse

SteveCallas said:


> No....no, no, no. There is a *huge* difference in picture quality between something like HBO HD boxing, an NFL game in HD, or a Discovery HD special vs a properly upconverted dvd. You don't have to be a trained expert, it's clearly obvious to anyone who has seen both - very big difference.


I have a 51" screen. I sit about 10 feet away. I consider myself to be trained to see differences. I can see a difference, but with good upconverted DVD, the difference is small. However, your average family with a 42" screen is going to be hard pressed to tell a difference at all, and the added cost of HD disc technolgy is not going to be justifiable. The difference is proportional to the screen size and viewing distance. Naturally, with a 110" screen, SD broadcast tv is intollerable, DVD is average to good, and true HD is breathtaking.


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## Sonnie

MrPorterhouse said:


> I have a 51" screen. I sit about 10 feet away. I consider myself to be trained to see differences. I can see a difference, but with good upconverted DVD, the difference is small. However, your average family with a 42" screen is going to be hard pressed to tell a difference at all, and the added cost of HD disc technolgy is not going to be justifiable. The difference is proportional to the screen size and viewing distance. Naturally, with a 110" screen, SD broadcast tv is intollerable, DVD is average to good, and true HD is breathtaking.


I think you may still be missing Steve's point. Even on a 42" screen there is a vast difference between HBO-HD Boxing over anything a DVD can offer, whether upconverted or HD. Same thing with a college or pro football game in HD. There's not anything that can compare, not even an super good upconverted DVD, unless it were of that same football game... or maybe some other event filmed in the same way. DVD movies, whether HD or not, just ain't gonna be the same as that boxing match or that football game. There is a very noticeable difference, even to the untrained eye on a 30" screen.


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## SteveCallas

Exactly. The difference between quality HD programming and a high quality upconverted dvd is *huge* and obvious. When you can make out the details on the faces of everyone in the 5th row of the crowd from a boxing match just as plainly as the boxers in the ring, and the colors are so vibrant they look better than real life, you know you aren't watching a dvd anymore :T This is on my 42" 1080p display.

The point I was originally making was that everything I have heard says that high definition disks so far cannot match the picture quality of said HD programming, they are only slightly better than an upconverted dvd. Sure, the difference is probably more dramatic on a blown up screen when each pixel is 0.25 centimeters wide, but it still isn't as good as quality HD programming.


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## wbassett

SteveCallas said:


> The difference between quality HD programming and a high quality upconverted dvd is huge and obvious.


I definitely agree with this Steve.

I'll also say that the difference between high quality upconverted DVD and less than stellar High Def HD or HD DVD mastering is also huge and obvious. Garbage in, garbage out really is true.

I'll be honest, I don't have cable or satellite so I can't comment at all about first hand experience with broad cast High Def. We certainly can afford cable, we just chose to drop it back in November of 2004 mainly because of poor programing and excessive commercials. I can honestly say we don't miss it at all.

I've seen some comparisons of movies that are broadcast in High Def compared to the High Def DVD version, specifically Batman Begins. Alone the cable broadcast really looks good, but when compared to the HD DVD version it falls apart.

Now, I am sure that HBO Boxing and other shows actually shot in High Def will look better than a movie that sometimes is questionable if it's actually an HD transfer being shown or merely an upconverted rebroadcast to save money and bandwidth.

I did catch a boxing match on HBO at my brother's and it looked incredible. I also have Rocky Balboa on High Def. Up until the boxing match in the movie, the picture quality is quite good, but the boxing match itself, like the HBO presentations is through the roof. I sat back though and pondered this a bit. It looked great, but almost surreal. It reminded me of TV shows when they switched from film to video... the look is just different, not necessarily 'better' though in my opinion. Mainly over saturated to me. Life doesn't look like that, but it can be argued that movies and TV are escapism and not meant to look 'real', if they were like real life the shows and movies would be pretty boring would't they?

Bandwidth is a big part of things too and most cable companies cut corners with High Def and Band Width.

I'll have to talk to my brother. He's DVR'd some High Def movie broadcasts and he also has the High Def DVD in either HD DVD or Bluray. I put a slight edge with disc content unless the cable broadcaster is really putting some effort into it and not going on a public buzz word. HBO seems to be putting effort into their broadcasts, some of the other companies seem to be good from what I hear, but so far nothing to convince me to sign up for cable or satellite again... at least not yet!

I'm not arguing with you Steve, this is more like Point, Counter Point.


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## Tommy

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I thought high def cable shows are encoded at 720p where as HD DVD and Blu-ray movies are both encoded and 1080i/1080p.

I think one of the biggest things to notice are the mistakes in the cable high def shows. There is definetly more artifacts, blocking, (a bunch of other tech video terms here) etc that I occasionaly see mess up the picture on at cable show that would be the point of an all out riot if happened on HD and/or Blu-ray


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## MrPorterhouse

I guess I will have to disagree with you then. On a 30" screen at an average family viewing distance of 10 feet, there is not enough resolution in the program to see a difference. The pixel distance does not come into play. As you either get closer to the screen or increase the screen size, the resolution correlates to the visual perception. I'm talking about good upconverted DVD compared to that HD football broadcast or HD optical disc. Now, with plain SD broadcasts, the noise and artifacts are so bad, that even on a 30" screen you'll see a huge difference as you switch from the SD feed to the HD feed. There does come a point where a consumer does see a justifiable difference and pays for the HD version. That difference is different for all of us.


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## Sonnie

:rubeyes: Have you had your eyes checked lately... it's extremely noticeable between live football games and DVD movies in HD... even on a 30" screen. I have never ever ever been able to get a movie in HD to look as good as a live broadcast in HD on anything. :huh: There's simply no comparison.


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## santora

Tommy said:


> Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I thought high def cable shows are encoded at 720p where as HD DVD and Blu-ray movies are both encoded and 1080i/1080p.


It depends on the network. Both NBC and CBS encode at 720. But ABC encodes at 1080i. Cable, well that's another story. It really depends on your cable company and cable box. I've got Charter and it allows me to upscale to whatever my needs are but it comes in the door at 720p.


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## santora

Sonnie said:


> :rubeyes: Have you had your eyes checked lately... it's extremely noticeable between live football games and DVD movies in HD... even on a 30" screen. I have never ever ever been able to get a movie in HD to look as good as a live broadcast in HD on anything. :huh: There's simply no comparison.


Agreed. Native HD stuff generally looks great, even on a small screen. ANd uprezed DVD or standard def, well it looks passable. There still isn't a _great_ upscaler out there yet that does SD to HD. There are plenty of good ones though and frankly they are easy to find.

And with all the compression going on in Cable/Dish, there no way the bandwidth is good enough to compete with a HD DVD or Blu Ray.


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## wbassett

Even though some sets may not be able to handle 1080, I think the PQ of the High Def formats is much better than the run of the mill SDVD versions, so it tends to look a bit better even on a set that's not 1080.

As far as cable broadcast, I spoke to my brother since I don't have cable myself and he said he thinks movies on both BD and HD DVD look better than the bandwidth restricted HD cable broadcasts...


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## SteveCallas

MrPorterhouse said:


> I guess I will have to disagree with you then. On a 30" screen at an average family viewing distance of 10 feet


Hmm, it's gone from being a trained expert with a 55" screen to 42" and now to 30" at 10' back. Is the 13" kitchen tv next? :R I'm just teasing you on that one :T I'm using a 1080p 42" and I sit 7' back.

Seriously though, some of you guys must be watching something totally different than Sonnie and I, as most of the HD feeds I get will blow away any dvd out there. Incredibles properly upconverted to 1080p is my dvd picture quality reference - I haven't really seen a dvd that can top it. Yet almost any day of the week I can find something flipping through my HD channels that will easily go a step above. ****, NFL Live on ESPNHD (not a game, just the talking head show filmed in a studio) is a step above - the vivid colors in that studio and the sharpness and clarity are well beyond any dvd I've seen. I guess maybe it is display and service dependent? I dunno. 



santora said:


> And with all the compression going on in Cable/Dish, there no way the bandwidth is good enough to compete with a HD DVD or Blu Ray.


Right, which is what makes the situation a bit mor epuzzling/frustrating. The high def dvds have the theoretical advantage, but I guess they just aren't putting it to use yet.


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## wbassett

Steve maybe we need a tier rating for High Def DVDs like another place has. 

From what I have seen, some HD discs whether they are HD DVD or BD aren't much better if any than the regular DVD upconverted... but High Def DVDs that are mastered well really shine. Again, I have no cable references that I can make so I bow out of that part of the conversation. 

BTW, are we the only people on the planet that willingly dropped cable/satellite??!:scratch:


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## bobgpsr

I think that ABC, ESPN and FOX do 720p. CBS, NBC and PBS do 1080i. :whistling:


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## santora

bobgpsr said:


> I think that ABC, ESPN and FOX do 720p. CBS, NBC and PBS do 1080i. :whistling:


Wow, I screwed up that last post. CBS was the only one doing 1080i, not ABC. ABC is 720, as is ESPN. I could be wrong (not the first time), and I'll dig in and finds this out tonight. 

But once again, if you have cable to dish, that signal's going to get compressed down and sent out in whatever format you cable/dish provider uses.


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## MrPorterhouse

I will say that in my house, on my 51", watching a HD football game is literally like being on the field. Its a picture window with a true 3D effect. Simply awesome! If you don't get that type of experience with Blu-ray (or HD DVD), then you have a playback issue. Apocalypto's jungle scenes are so breathtakingly amazing it boggles my mind. POTC: Dead Man's Chest has many scenes that vivid as well. However, when viewing LOTR:Fellowship of the Ring upconverted on DVD at a similar distance of around 10", my jaw drops at the resolve, clarity, and detail that the DVD format can show on these smaller screens. No, it isn't what true HD is, but its amazing how good DVD looks on smaller screens. Your average Joe can easily be sold(convinced) on HD, but if you have DVD and HD side by side on a small screen, the COST difference may be hard to sell. Scrren size-viewing distance will justify the difference proportionally.


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## Sonnie

No doubt I've got playback issues then... maybe that's my whole problem that I need to be figuring out.


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## wbassett

My question now is... should I be getting cable again??!


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## SteveCallas

Well when the football season ends I usually go cable or dish free for the next few months - then it's mostly movies and the occassional video game. If you do consider it though, I'd go DISH, as they carry a lot more HD channels than any other option I am currently aware of. Cable providers usually top out around 10-14, DISH has ~24.


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