# Help, I think I may have a mess lol



## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

OK, just received after ordering two weeks ago my UMIK-1
SO, 8am in shower doorbell rings and peak out window and here's my delivery a day earlier.
So, connected the IMIK-1 downloaded the .cal and then started up REW added the .cal file and well I think I played too much with REW and have things out of whack. 
So, I un-installed REW , re installed it and well, went to calibrate the stereo and got no volume , in anything. Even with the Pre Amps own pink noise settings. 
So, about then I am 30 minutes late for work. So, off I go, then to Halifax for a hockey game. Got home 12am, down stairs I go and re-set the Pre/Pro. Yeah I got volume, re calibrated to -8db on the volume dial and adjusted the levels to 75db with REW SPL. Using the Pre/Pro pink noise. Well I could only get the sub to 65db and I think it was going to up and walk off. Sounded way louder than the mains and centre. 
So, I am thinking maybe thats the reason the capture is so low on the sub 20hz - 80 ish.
Thinking I got to re calibrate and bring that sub db up to 75db also or lower the rest to 65db, right ?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

I’m afraid not much makes sense there, Troy. I can’t tell if you’re doing what you’re doing with REW’s controls or your sound system’s. Nor is the actual problem coming through. If your sub’s level is low, that’s not an REW issue.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

all my sound system.
Ok I used REW SPL Meter with my UMIK-1 Mic. Installed the .CAL files for the Umik
then I set my Pre/Pro system to the normal level I listen to -5db on the dial. I went into the Pre/Pro settings and using the pink noise generator with the Pre/Pro's I adjusted all the speakers to 75db. My sub though I could only get to 70db. I have Axiom EP350 
Once that was done I ran REW measure. and then this is the result of that.

I am wondering if I should recalibrate to 60 db all speakers and re run the REW Measure


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

getting very annoyed at this program and mic. Should of kept my money and just upgraded the processor to a new receiver and let ARC do the job. Low input levels now. Had to use my cell phone as a SPL meter


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## jtalden (Mar 12, 2009)

Post an mdat file so we can see some of the your settings. Maybe there is a hint there.


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

FInally got something. LIne Level on USB was off


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Ok thanks here goes


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## jtalden (Mar 12, 2009)

If I understand correctly the Subs playing at a high sound level compared to the mains when this measurement was made.
There is no evidence in the chart below that a sub was even active. It looks like a main speaker response. One that is crossed over at pretty high, maybe 120 or even 200 Hz.
I reviewed the 'info' in mdat file and all looked normal to me. I found no evidence of the problem in the REW settings. 
Even with the loud bass the mic recorded unusually low levels in the bass range. Even in quiet room the a measurement would normally record 45-55 dB at 20 Hz just from a combination of the normal ambient noise and the normal mic noise floor. It did start to detect sound >70 Hz, and it rose to ~75 dB at 200 Hz. See the chart below plotted with more normal scaling.








I can't think of any good explanation for this result in the setup, but there could be something. You may want to contact MiniDSP and see if this is possibly a known mic problem. If you can, borrow another UMIK-1 mic to confirm if that is the problem.


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Thanks I get hardly any bottom end volume when running the scan. Very low. My processor is set at 80hz cut off. I will try more tomorrow


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

I'm going to buy an external USB sound card. Trying to locate a HDMI sound card extractor but not happening cheaply


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## jtalden (Mar 12, 2009)

I misunderstood then. The bass sound was very low as measured. That sounds more like an issue with the cabling/connections chosen or the selected listening mode in the pre-pro. How is that setup?
Maybe:
Computer soundcard output > 1/8" stereo TRS to RCA adaptor > dual RCA cables > pre-pro CD input ??
pre-pro listening mode = stereo ??

If the pre-pro multichannel left and right inputs are used then there will be no SW signal. The pre-pro only redirects the bass from the normal stereo line inputs.


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

I think I got it 
I bought a usb external sound card and got something of a better reading. I am going to re calc the system because that sub is way loud. and do another sweep


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

heres a pic


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Here is a new .mdat


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## jtalden (Mar 12, 2009)

Well done!


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

is this good . no eq yet and sub only


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

ok


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

and smooth


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Well Guess I got to go back to the original setup and calibration. Moved the sub to the baclk and so localized now. But, I am getting the hang of this. Just take measurments move sub around . Still not sure about this shelf thing etc but the bass is smoother an I like it. Basia bass lines are nice.


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## jtalden (Mar 12, 2009)

You may want to expand the dB scale. We normally plot dB at 5 dB/division.


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

jtalden said:


> You may want to expand the dB scale. We normally plot dB at 5 dB/division.


OK got to figure that out 
still trying to figure out house curves. been at this 8 hours getting tired


thanks


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

What jtalden said. That 120 dB scale will make the Grand Canyon look like a Texas prairie.


Getting Graphs Ready to Post


Regards, 
Wayne


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

yeh, I'm just trying to figure this out. Too many instructions. Thought I had it set for 100db.
as for the House curve and shelf ,
Would that be set u the shelf curves before setting up the sub. Then hook the DSP up to the sub, run a sweep. then do the adjustmeants, thne send that to the dsp ?


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Ok 
Changed the axis etc 
Not sure yet where or what you menat from the 5db/division.

Think I have this house curve correct. I deleted all the measurements, went to eq settings then created one filter at 366hz -15db and 120/60 went into the filter tasks > match range and set to 30hz t0 400hz , set target level 75db then sent that to the dsp program 5.
then I reran measurements on program 5.
then did the set target level , then match target level , optimized gains and q's, then sent that to the dsp and program 4. 

anyways. GN


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## jtalden (Mar 12, 2009)

The chart you posted shows 10 dB increments (lines) between the dB levels. Set upper and lower chart scale as needed to position the trace on the chart and have dB line increments displayed each 5 dB. Be aware that as you change the size of the chart it is often to necessary to again change the scale so that a 5dB spacing is retained. The 45-105 dB recommendation usually works well for a full screen display of REW. You are Posting charts that are much smaller so that resulted in a 10 or 20 dB/division spacing.

Regarding your overall objective:
What is your objective? What equipment/controls do you have available to achieve it? Depending on you answers I suspect the current chart is not much help. 

If you can only EQ the SW and will do that manually (how?), and want to integrate it with the main speakers, and want to EQ to a house curve then one good general approach might be: [First remove any EQ filters that are anyplace near the XO range. What is the XO freq?]
1. Determine and set the delay/distance needed for a good handoff between the SW and Mains.
2. Chose SW level and EQ the SW range with the mains operating to best fit the target full range House Curve . [What is the house curve target? The one in the file is for the SW only.]

We can provide detail for each of these 2 steps as needed.

It's okay do this work in reverse:
1. Set the SW EQ for the target SW response.
2. Determine and set the delay/distance and SW level needed for a good handoff between the SW and Mains.

It looks like you were thinking this way. I prefer the first way as the EQ of the SW impacts the XO range to some extent so those filters can be better set using the full range house curve with the mains operating. That way we also don't have to determine the proper SW response curve, we just need the overall house curve.


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Hi Jtalden.
have a Anthem AVM30 so not usabale eq'ing in it for me.
I bought a DSP1124P and a UMIK-1 mic. Picked up MIDI usb cable to communicate with REW.

My speakers are Axiom M22 book shelfs but I will be upgrading to the M5HP to get a bit more bottom end. These M22 just don't go far enough in this room. I am 10 ft from my Mains and I sit 8.5 from the front of the centre channel I added a extra ft to 9.5ft for the centre.

I have a major drop at 82hz and 98hz and I have a drop from 200 - 500hz tried everything to get rid of it to no avail.

I am beginning to think I should of just up graded to the MRX720 or AVM60 and let ARC run its course on this.

I have a Axiom EP350 ported sub, going to up grade to dual EP500 sealed sometime this year as cant stand that port chuffing.

I have a couple inch of rigid fibre glass 2' x 4' in the rear corners. Came from sound panels from a movie theatre, but am going to get bass traps installed eventually.

All I want to do is EQ the sub and get some decent sound. It was real boomy and fat sounding. Even with the little bit of playing I been doing It sounds better than what it was. I took from one of Waynes post the Hard Knee curve, those settings made a text file and put it in the house cureve area of the REW settings. Not sure if it would be correct but anyways . 
I also, took from BruceK post on a shelf eq and what I did probably wrong, but created one filter from 30hz to 400hz and set a filter at 366hz and -15db also 120/60 octave. save to PA 5. then I set the DSP to 5 and ran a sweep again. then did the target tasks etc. Uploaded to PA 7 think there were 4 filters.

probably all wrong but, just want to blend that sub with the mains andhave some nice none boomy bass


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

OK think I got the 5db plots


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

here a mdat


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## jtalden (Mar 12, 2009)

The chart scaling looks good now.
I entered your house curve into my REW and adjusted the target level to 70 dB. I got the following EQ chart. It looks like a pretty good hard knee response. The dips are room modes and possibly one is SW delay/distance error. Nothing much to improve there with EQ.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

IMO if you're changing subs, I wouldn't give up on ported just because the ep350 chuffed. I have read about that sub doing that from a few places. It just not a good subwoofer. Despite the specs that show 25hz frequency response, which is still too high, the measured response in room is really too high. 33hz is too high for a sub to start rolling off. I'm sure that's part of the reason you have such boominess. Axioms site isn't clear. You said sealed ep500, which I can find but it also shows a slot ported unit and says something about "silent porting". Fwiw I'm much more a fan of ported subs, and if you're serious about spending around 3k on subs, I am seriously recommending you take a look at:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP.html
http://www.hsuresearch.com/
https://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/subwoofers
If you want to spend around 5k, a pair of these should get your attention and 
everyone in the neighborhood. 
https://www.svsound.com/products/pb16-ultra?gclid=CJ78uOiW5NICFVO1wAodz4QOog
If you want furniture grade cabs, I've read a lot of great things about funk audio. http://www.funkaudio.ca/store/c1/Featured_Products.html
Here's a review the Jman did on the sealed ultra 16. 
SVS SB16-Ultra Review

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...m/forums/showthread.php?t=165442&share_type=t
Just thought I'd give some food for thought.


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

willis7469 said:


> IMO if you're changing subs, I wouldn't give up on ported just because the ep350 chuffed. I have read about that sub doing that from a few places. It just not a good subwoofer. Despite the specs that show 25hz frequency response, which is still too high, the measured response in room is really too high. 33hz is too high for a sub to start rolling off. I'm sure that's part of the reason you have such boominess. Axioms site isn't clear. You said sealed ep500, which I can find but it also shows a slot ported unit and says something about "silent porting". Fwiw I'm much more a fan of ported subs, and if you're serious about spending around 3k on subs, I am seriously recommending you take a look at:
> http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP.html
> http://www.hsuresearch.com/
> https://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/subwoofers
> ...


Yeh, I got this one cheap. $600
I am looking at the SVS 13-Ultra sealed. 16's are way too big for my room 11.5 x 15.5x 8' 
I have the EP500 on layaway and was told by craigsub it is a great sub. They have changed the sub line up to sealed from the EP500 up, just are really slack on the website updates. I got dual EP500 for $2000.

PS I just prefer a sealed sub, there's enough air movement in my room with two and I find they are tighter and more to my sound liking


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

jtalden said:


> The chart scaling looks good now.
> I entered your house curve into my REW and adjusted the target level to 70 dB. I got the following EQ chart. It looks like a pretty good hard knee response. The dips are room modes and possibly one is SW delay/distance error. Nothing much to improve there with EQ.
> 
> View attachment 139218


Ok, that hard knee curve was stolen from Wayne to experiment as I have no clue on how to create them. I originally tried the Shelf that BruceK has where 30 hz and 120/60 and a -15db at 366hz. but just not sure how to put that in the filter. I wasn't sure if I would set that up in bank 2 on the DSP1124 , then run another sweep on the sub on that bank. then re calc the filters and sae them to bank 3.

Then I was re reading last night and seen a picture and it shows his filter set and this additional filter.

Anyways, I will play with the sub distance settings and see if it changes and also I think I will move the mic to different distances and see what that does. Maybe I am in a bad spot. Also, I do not have a stand, so what I am doing is I set a milk crate on my seat and a three inch foam n the crate. Then I sit the mic on that it is at ear height if I was sitting there.

I got a lot to learn yet, but starting to figure something out with help


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ok. Enjoy.


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Well 3 more hours playing.
set the speakers on speakers stands spread out a bit more and off the wall a bit further. This be the red graph.
Then moved sub in corner a few inches off the side wall. set the cross over to 90hz. Tried 80hz and 100hz this seems to work the best.
Then I ran three well four sweeps of sub only one no curves, a hard knee and a house curve and a shelf as per Brucek's 30hz -400hz. I think I did it correct.
I ran a sweep well 20hz - 200hz then eq'd it then after I got the two filters I added a manual 366 120/60 -15db and re -eq it.

I lost the house curve one. I saved each to the DSP banks 1 - 9 lol.

however, they all made a big improvement in sound. I think I even got that sub to roll at 25hz at 70db and roll out around 50hz. I think I have a good cross over setting. Still learning just borrowing these curves I will play more this weekend.


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

willis7469 said:


> Ok. Enjoy.


Thanks though I have looked at those subs
really wished for the SVS, the HSU are just way too much here in Canada with the duty, taxes, double shipping and exchange.
I knew this EP350 wasn't going to be what I wanted, but it was a real good price so it is better than nothing.
I was down to the SVS Plus sealed or possibly the Ultra ...
The Axiom EP500 is quite a jump better than the EP350.
The thing I looked at most was $2300 for dual Axiom subs or $3700 SVS Plus or $4600 for the Ultras.

So it came down to can " I " really notice the difference in these subs and at what cost. Is the sound from a SVS PLus worth an extra $1400 or double the cost of the Axioms.
I am sure no doubt in my mind the SVS are better, but I am wondering how far do I take this, I mean 
$4400 in speakers 7ch
$2300 - 4600 for subs
currently have a $3000 MCA50
have a $3000 Pre/Pro AVM. being upgraded to a AVM60 or MRX720 another $3000
then I need a second 3 ch AMP MCA30 or MCA325 $3500
gotta cut costs somewhere  

but thanks for the info


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Good Day JTAlden

ok was playing agin and again and I entered about 10 banks of EQ filters. been listening to music mostly Thanks Wayne for the Basia love that Drunk on Love song. Love the bass lines and kic drum and vocals. 

I have crossover House curves for 80hz the first 4 and 4 crossover curves for 90hz and also a no house filters for each.

I have also attempted to try and create my own lol have to check it out hopefully it close to what I want.

Trying to get a bit more of that upper bass. just a tab too boomy/loose on the lower part. I have shelves at 20hz and 30 hz at +8db. mine I trying for 6.5db maybe and bring that curve out in the 40hz - 60hz area.

I suspect though a lot of this is in the L/R speakers in that I think they are dropping off in the 90 hz area. I don't care much for my subs cross over at 90hz either. I will be upgrading currently I have bookshelfs with two 5.25" woofers. I am going to a speakers that has exchanged on on those to a 6.5 woofer for a lower bottom end. But, first is to upgrade that sub, I know it wasn't great but it was cheap and gets me by until.

anyways here the curve, just wondering if I am on track with these or off course. 
Ok I cannot delete once I drop. the third one is the one My HC 30xxxxx


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## jtalden (Mar 12, 2009)

I am not sure what you are looking for.

Choosing a house curve and adjusting the EQ accordingly is a personal preference. There are house curve recommendations that cover a very wide range. Regarding EQ; the adjustments you implemented previously seemed to be effective to fit the house curve you chose at that time. You thus can adjust the EQ as needed to fit a new house curve selection. A crossover choice of 80 or 90 Hz can sometimes make a significant difference as you have found. It depends on many factors with; room acoustics, delay/distance settings and speaker positioning being major factors.


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Ok so basically this is a long process.
I think I am settled on 80hz crossover.
I just got to figure out how we come to the target curve starting point.
But, think I may have that figured out.
So, I EQ my sub with different house curve designs, then I auto calc the filters with REW and then play with it manually to get the frequencies as close to the curve as I can with a couple manual filters.

No what they should do Wayne or BruceK and someone. Create a Youtube video from scans etc to upload. 
Like a step process, the sweep of the sub, and show why or how you come to a house curve, show why you select a target. show 
editing a house curve to match your system. right to the upload.


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## jtalden (Mar 12, 2009)

I have been experimenting with different house curves for several years now. What works best for one music program is not my favorite for another. Just find a compromise you like that works for the music you prefer. You can spend as much time as you want making that choice.


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Ok, so I am on the right track here, I just need hone my skills and play.

Just trying to figure out how this Target curve comes about, how does one decide where it is best.

I wasn't sure if you would manually add filters or if you just let REW do the filters. Then if that's not what you want, edit the house curve and try again.

Yes, there all different recordings. Like Wayne or Brucek mention in the house curves guides there's no standard. Specially with 50 year old recordings. You can have a Mutt Lange production and a solid pronounced bass or a neutral BNL track. 

I like to figure out a few one for action movies, one for chick flick types. Then have a couple for music. and of course a neutral .
I think that's what most do. I just have to remember which is which


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Yeh, I think I need bring up my middle bass 35 - 60 hz most Bass notes are in that range. That's where I think I am hurting and looking at my chart I had a drop in the 60hz area


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Troy P Dorey said:


> Ok, so I am on the right track here, I just need hone my skills and play.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Fwiw, I've used the bfd and for me personally I've gone with a house curve and leave it at that. My philosophy is similar to Wayne's in that, I've come to appreciate content for what it is without making it sound like what I want.(curves for every mood I'm in) What i ended up with in doing that was most things sounded the same. Now I just take things for what they are. Ymmv. 

I didn't realize you were in Canada. That's where the axiom connection must be. I was just trying to recommend something more valuable/return on investment, with that size budget. Gene Della salla revisited his own review here: http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/axiom-audio-ep500-and-ep-600-v4
I think it speaks volumes.(no pun lol), and I figured if you're dumping that kind of cash, you'd be better served elsewhere. Seems they're taking a step backwards. Also the fact that axiom publicly stated they won't send anything to josh ricci (data-bass.com) for testing really turned me off of them, and the reviews of their subs always seemed a little suspect to me. If it were me, I'd save the money on electronics since the return on that investment hits diminishing returns very quickly. IMO, speakers and subs should get the lions share, and electronics the rest. Maybe room treatments too. Looks like you're having fun anyways! That's a good thing, learning as much as you can about something you enjoy.


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Yeh, I'm up here getting ready to golf yesterday and shovelling the driveway today freezing 

Yes, Axiom .... Just that I do like the speaker line, I know I can get better for more dollars but, there comes a line I want to spend and for the value I think the M80HP and the bookshelves I do have a re good. I only paid $500 for the M22 in real wood.
I will be upgrading to the M5HP.

True I was susceptible on the subs, and for $600 I did get a well looks like a $600 sub. I do have a EP500 for $1000 on layway. I am told it is a improvement over the EP350 by a long shot. I really , really want a SVS13 Ultra and I may actually buy the EP500 check it out. I do have 30 days trial. I can always return it and get a SVS plus or the Ultra.

Love to have the HSU but only in the US and it gets really expensive once broker, Shipping, exchange rates hit. What costs you $799us ends up $1500 cdn to my door. Then , if I want to send it back .... well that wouldn't happen. I really want t stay within the $2000 - $3000 budget for subs. I always say, there comes a area where the improvements come at a high cost. And I try to judge where that is. Like if I had a choice between a Axiom M80HP at $2200 or Paradigm's Studio 100's at $3900. Paradigm Studio's do sound nicer, bit more bottom end etc, but $2000 worth ?? I'd save the $2000 and put it elsewhere. Kinda like put it into a Anthem MCA335 Amp as opposed to a $1000 Yamaha. or add it to the sub pot.


I am actually, thinking of the SVS

yes, maybe I should just pick a few and be happy, I wish the had a PEQ with and app control I can put on my tablet, instead of getting up all the time  I'd be happy maybe with a standard eq and a house curve I like and one for movies.
I like all kind of genre so a elated house curve may be too much for a The Weeknd song. 
Thanks to Wayne I am now into this Basia chick. Not sure if its the music or those bass lines


Do appreciate the opinion suggestions


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Even thinking once I figure this all out, is I may get a DEQ2496
I can use that as a crossover and PEQ my dual subs and I believe use a graphic eq on the L/C/R.

If I am reading this correctly


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

See here's the difference
for one SVS Ultra it is $2700
for a sealed SVS Plus it is $2300.

for two Axiom EP500 $2300


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Well I'll admit my bias as I have two pc pluses. But for MY money, I'd I'd buy one plus, not upgrade electronics and buy the second plus with that.(or save) Respectfully, my first choice is rhythmik but I don't know if you can get them there. I forgot to mention seaton sound, and JTR. Don't get me wrong as I'm only saying what I'd do, and hope you don't think I'm preaching. I also don't have a real working knowledge of CAD except it seems like it sucks. lol. I guess I just wouldn't give axiom any money for subwoofers. Speakers? I would definitely consider that. 
The thing is, a single ultra/plus will go much deeper with much more output than the EP. Imo more even bass across more seats doesn't matter if it's not "better" bass, and the myth of sealed being tighter and more musical is not true. Good design is good design. The ep 350 you have is probably a high "Q" low dampened unit, although the price seems ok. Ok. Done...promise. Lol


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

no, alls good specially when one has more experience and knowledge.
I just really want dual subs. but maybe I will get one now and one in another couple years.
I will look into the Rymik but, thinking if anything the SVS PLus sealed would be the one. I do not have a big room 11.5 x 15.5 so space is a premium specially up front. I find a bit boomy in the corner and if I move it off the wall I got to go about 39" as the speaker stands are 22" from centre. and I can't vary them too much or the sound stage etc goes whacky.
also again Seaton is US I was looking into the Kriesel subs but that would be up $5000+. I think Rhymik has a Canadian dealer


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

Ok just curious
that section between 60 - 90hz does that mean I have almost most frequencies there. 
and should I be moving my cross over to 90hz from 80 hz.


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## Troy P Dorey (Jan 30, 2017)

forgot the posts


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