# Best dual sub for 1000?



## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Anyone have any recommendations for the best dual subs for 999 or less shipped for a room that is cathedral ceiling 14' 3" x 20' 7" containing 2900 cubic feet of space.

Mainly looking for a setup that will do 70% movies and 30% music. Will be using a Denon X4000 as a processor and will have Audessy XT32 w/ Sub EQ capability for dual sub equalizing if that helps any.

Just trying to get an idea of other offerings other than SVS. Not sure what else is available out there.

Not sure if ported or sealed would be best. My main interest is fast/accurate over pure DB output.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Besides SVS, HSU makes decent subs for the price. I would also have a look at used as you will get more for your money. Dual subs at $500 each including shipping will sacrifice some quality Im afraid. You'll be lucky to get down to 20Hz


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Besides SVS, HSU makes decent subs for the price. I would also have a look at used as you will get more for your money. Dual subs at $500 each including shipping will sacrifice some quality Im afraid. You'll be lucky to get down to 20Hz


I'll look at HSU also.

I understand I'll be taking a hit on quality. My uncle (an audiophile) recommends dual REL T5s which he can get at cost for 1000 delivered to my door brand new. However I would only be seeing maybe 30-2hz with those however he said they sound great so I dunno... he's 100% music. However I could sell them and not lose any money when the time to upgrade comes.

I have a line on a PC-Ultra from SVS but was made some 2006' model. I think it's either a 12" or a 13" but it's only ONE sub... however the price is 400.

I could just get by with the one sub but really wanted duals for soundstage/perception and flatter response.

I would think the dual SVS SP-1000s or SB-1000s would work out better than dual T5s for MOVIES.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yes, the REL T5 is not going to cut it for movies at all. 30Hz is barley hitting the frequencies that count.
Two of these HSU VTF-1 MK2 subs would give you better performance.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Right now they are having a special and can get dual HSU VTF-2 MK4 subs for 1132 shipped to the door.

I'm not searching for sub frequencies yet but a dual setup is a must IMHO.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Cant go wrong with two VTF-2 MK4's for that price. I would jump on it before its gone.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Since you're going for 70% movies, I think you'd be really mad at buying the REL subs. Fwiw I never liked them anyway. I think for your budget, the good Dr. HSU will have you covered. Imagining isn't part of subwoofer setup, so you might consider one of the better subs you can buy, then add a 2nd later. Again, 70% movies, I'd go ported, even though slow bass is more of a myth tied to subs of poor design, and driver linearity than ported/sealed. I have both, and my ported cylinders are just as musical as my sealed one.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

That IS a good sale.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ya, I've got a monster sub in my theater system it weighs 160lbs and it's excelant with music and I would put it up against subs costing far more to do any better for music.
One better sub could give you much lower frequencies and in the end would be better for movies but if your set on two subs the HSU subs will do.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Ya, I've got a monster sub in my theater system it weighs 160lbs and it's excelant with music and I would put it up against subs costing far more to do any better for music.
> One better sub could give you much lower frequencies and in the end would be better for movies but if your set on two subs the HSU subs will do.


Well lets talk about one then and why.... My experience is with music. It's obvious that the movie setup is different.

So your saying you would take a single $1000 sub over two $500?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

How many seating positions do you have? Getting a sub that reaches down to 15hz is a big deal in my opinion. The advantage to two subs is that you get a more equal spread throughout the room but if your seating is in one location you can place that single sub in the sweet spot and get a much more enjoyable exsperience.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Bmxer241 said:


> Well lets talk about one then and why.... So your saying you would take a single $1000 sub over two $500?


 Almost every single time.(with an eye on a 2nd asap) If you have placement options without WAF, etc there's no reason a single can't be flat. It can be easier with 2,(WAF and real estate notwithstanding) I've seen Tony's REW graph. It speaks for itself (if he'll post it again lol).


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ok, here it is









As you can see it can be done. But to be fair the SVS PB13u is a $2000 sub. SVS does have a reputation of making subs that are very flat in response.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Here is my room. This was my "Idea".

The screen wall left corner will host our christmas tree every year so the room must remain function ONLY to that degree. I have full control of what I want to do anywhere else. I added the french doors to block off the room. 

For now using NHT superzero speakers and they have useless response below 120hz. I MUST go with some kind of sub for now to get started. I need OK and really the cheaper the better. I was thinking 1000 budget but if something else will work OK for now then thats fine too.

Ultimately I will buy the Golden Ear Triton speakers and will upgrade other equipment as I can invest. Will probably still run a sub or two or whatever works out.

For now... I need SOMETHING.

I have the freedom of whatever size, location etc. I can go with 1, two , four... etc.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I would recommend with that space going with one sub now and get a second of the same later. In many cases placing a sub in the corner of a room will boost the gain of even a lesser sub. 
This SVS PB2000 would be very nice.
http://www.svsound.com/specials/outlet-specials/pb-2000_2


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> I would recommend with that space going with one sub now and get a second of the same later. In many cases placing a sub in the corner of a room will boost the gain of even a lesser sub.
> This SVS PB2000 would be very nice.
> http://www.svsound.com/specials/outlet-specials/pb-2000_2



Good ideal. My only issue is I've never heard of a one sub setup myself that I could not localize the sub. For whatever reason I have always been able to. But the dual subs I've heard it's seamless.

I have a line on a SVS PC-Ultra for 400. It's a 2006 model in great shape. For starters this would be ideal until I can afford a nice set of matching subs (maybe the PB-13 Ultras) later. My logic was I could buy...use... then sell this used one a year later for no loss.

For 750 why wouldn't I want the PC model?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Localization of a sub is more an issue because the crossover is set to high. Anything above 80hz becomes audable. I know you said your current speakers are not good below 120hz but having two subs set that high will still be an issue you will just hear it coming from two places instead of one.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Localization of a sub is more an issue because the crossover is set to high. Anything above 80hz becomes audable. I know you said your current speakers are not good below 120hz but having two subs set that high will still be an issue you will just hear it coming from two places instead of one.


Gotcha. Makes sense.

So the faster I can get full range speakers the better.... and dual subs lol.

I may go with the SB-2000 unless the equally priced HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP would be better.

In fact what would keep me from going dual small 8" subs for the mains and one large 15" for the LFE.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Bmxer241 said:


> Good ideal. My only issue is I've never heard of a one sub setup myself that I could not localize the sub. For whatever reason I have always been able to. But the dual subs I've heard it's seamless. I have a line on a SVS PC-Ultra for 400. It's a 2006 model in great shape. For starters this would be ideal until I can afford a nice set of matching subs (maybe the PB-13 Ultras) later. My logic was I could buy...use... then sell this used one a year later for no loss. For 750 why wouldn't I want the PC model?


 no reason not to do a cylinder. I have 2, and I love the design. I think 400 is a great price for a 16/46. I hope the seller is legit. ? 120hz (as tony said) will be very hard to contend with, no matter what you do. But, it can be done!


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> no reason not to do a cylinder. I have 2, and I love the design. I think 400 is a great price for a 16/46. I hope the seller is legit. ? 120hz (as tony said) will be very hard to contend with, no matter what you do. But, it can be done!


Thanks for the input.

The NHT speakers will not last forever. I bought them 5 years ago (5 of them) and have only used 2 for my computer. I'm starting with these but my goal full range at all 4 corners, a center and two ceilings once Atmos becomes a stronger market.


My only issue with buying it used would be to find another one lol.... so I wouldn't have to sell the first one off for matching set.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

> I may go with the SB-2000 unless the equally priced HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP would be better.


May I ask whey the sb2000 over the PB2000? The SVS would preform better in my opinion.



> In fact what would keep me from going dual small 8" subs for the mains and one large 15" for the LFE.


probably not the best thing to do as integrating that would be very difficult.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yeah finding a 2nd one might be tricky. Lol


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> May I ask whey the sb2000 over the PB2000? The SVS would preform better in my opinion.


Sorry.. SVS and only one letter difference haha. I meant PB...

and isn't it a sealed sub COULD produce lower frequencies if you can load the room up better then just a tuned ported.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ported will always go louder and pressurize a room better than sealed. The advantage to a sealed sub is much smaller footprint.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Ported will always go louder and pressurize a room better than sealed. The advantage to a sealed sub is much smaller footprint.


well I don't mind big  but thats what she said :gulp:

Sounds like I just need to dig deep and buy dual PB-2000s and be done with it.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Lol, there goes the budget :spend:


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Lol, there goes the budget :spend:


uh... that is exactly what happened when I offered low on a Krell Showcase 7 amp on audiogon and a week later the guy accepted 

and thats why everything else has gone to trying to cut corners because I wanted a good amp.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Sell the Krell and get more than you payed and then get an Emotiva or something else that's cheaper in price. Honestly you won't hear a difference.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Or dual PC2k's!
The sb2k(fwiw) is a fantastic little sub, but you're room is too big, even for 2 of them. PB or PC, should perform the same.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Sell the Krell and get more than you payed and then get an Emotiva or something else that's cheaper in price. Honestly you won't hear a difference.


I have a Denon X4000 on the way. I'll definately be doing sound tests between the Denon and the Krell. I got the Denon for 600 so the Amp may not be needed. 

If I can tell a difference then Krell stays.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Just be careful to make sure your output levels are the same when comparing amps. This is a very tricky thing to do without sighted bias. What I mean is you may hear a difference because you see one first. And want to also. I'm timidly opening up this can of worms, but the difference/s you hear will be in the pre section as opposed to the amp. Curious to hear what you find.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> Just be careful to make sure your output levels are the same when comparing amps. This is a very tricky thing to do without sighted bias. What I mean is you may hear a difference because you see one first. And want to also. I'm timidly opening up this can of worms, but the difference/s you hear will be in the pre section as opposed to the amp. Curious to hear what you find.


well... just setting the up on the kitchen table with two NHT superzero's and playing 2 channel and the only material playing was the intro to Godzilla.... beyond the scene after the atomic bomb goes off and the next scene was the helicopter flying........

between the krell and the 10yr old Sony receiver I use for my computer the difference was JAW DROPPING.

This krell amp made these tiny speakers sound so large... not bass... just ambience midrange and soundstage was huge. The sony couldn't even compare. 

The helicopter blades sounded washed out on the sony but you could hear so much dynamic with the krell it felt like each blade was chopping away at your ear. 


Unfortunately I'm just now dabbling into home theater and this will be my first true setup. I've done some 2 channel stuff but nothing fancy. My uncle has HIGH END gear. Vandersteen 5A speakers and Krell 300 monoblocks and also swaps over to Audio Research REF 600s (pair)... soo much other stuff involved with his setup and not to mention the dedicated room he built and all the acoustic treatment he has...

essentially... Yes... he has shown me. He would swap out equipment, cables etc... and I could hear. I was amazed at what was removed from the sound when he took some of the mapleshade platforms out.

So... Chances are the Krell is staying but I do want to listen myself... I won't have a ultra sensitive setup like his so we'll see.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

He would frown on me to hear me go with an SVS subwoofer....

he is pretty set on REL only.... but again he is 100% music. I'll be more movie biased.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Bmxer241 said:


> He would frown on me to hear me go with an SVS subwoofer....


 Well... That's unfortunate. Wonder how many he's heard? My priority (considering the shared space) is music also, and I'd never choose a REL sub. Physics don't change just cause they have been given a fanciful description. Although I do find the aesthetic appealing. Just goes to show ya, it's good to have choices!


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## primetimeguy (Jun 3, 2006)

Bmxer241 said:


> well... just setting the up on the kitchen table with two NHT superzero's and playing 2 channel and the only material playing was the intro to Godzilla.... beyond the scene after the atomic bomb goes off and the next scene was the helicopter flying........
> 
> between the krell and the 10yr old Sony receiver I use for my computer the difference was JAW DROPPING.
> 
> ...


I encourage you to check out the TV show Brain Games on National Geographic channel. You can even view the first episode of season 1 for free on Amazon. There are a couple examples in it about how your eyes impact what you hear.

But be warned, you may never trust what you think you see or hear again.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I'm going to assume that the Sony is an old model receiver? That would explane a lot. Receivers have come a long way in the last few years. My old top of the line Yamaha that I thought was really good pailed in comparison to my newer Onkyo. It truly was a night and day difference in sound quality. I added an external amp to power the mains but it made no audable difference, only piece of mind.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> I'm going to assume that the Sony is an old model receiver? That would explane a lot. Receivers have come a long way in the last few years. My old top of the line Yamaha that I thought was really good pailed in comparison to my newer Onkyo. It truly was a night and day difference in sound quality. I added an external amp to power the mains but it made no audable difference, only piece of mind.


Yes it is. And this is why I want to check for myself. The X4000 vs. 11yr old Krell. I have everything but the subs ordered and should have my system setup in the next few weeks.

and... who is to say that it's not some brain trick that made the Onkyo sound better... I mean your brain already knew it was newer right lol


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Bmxer241 said:


> Here is my room. This was my "Idea".
> 
> The screen wall left corner will host our christmas tree every year so the room must remain function ONLY to that degree. I have full control of what I want to do anywhere else. I added the french doors to block off the room.
> 
> ...


If you do go dual subs, consider swapping their positions with the mains, placing the subs just outside of the screen. Two reasons why:

1. This will put the subs close to the ideal 1/4 way into the room from the side walls, which will help smooth bass throughout the room and prevent large peaks from corner placement.

2. It will help ameliorate localizing the subs with a 120 Hz crossover.

I have done ths very thing in my system, everyone loves the bass, and no one is able to localize the subs even when using a 200 Hz crossover.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

I'm pretty sure my photo shows the subs just outside the mains which are outside the screen.


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## Insearchof (Oct 21, 2014)

Sorry, meant to quote this:
If you do go dual subs, consider swapping their positions with the mains, placing the subs just outside of the screen. Two reasons why:

1. This will put the subs close to the ideal 1/4 way into the room from the side walls, which will help smooth bass throughout the room and prevent large peaks from corner placement.

2. It will help ameliorate localizing the subs with a 120 Hz crossover.

I have done ths very thing in my system, everyone loves the bass, and no one is able to localize the subs even when using a 200 Hz crossover.

Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...089-best-dual-sub-1000-a-4.html#ixzz3Ny7CAd9M




^^^This
Corner placement can help with boundary gain but IMO the soudstage suffers leading to localization. 
With 2 identical subs you may be able to minimize this.
I'd give the Hsu and Rythmik subs a hard look if you aren't sure about the SVS offerings.

After using external amps with my Yamaha receiver I will never go back to using the receiver's amps to handle more than the center channel. Pushing 5 channels through the Yamaha produced bland sound.
Getting the L&R fronts and surrounds on their own amps produced MUCH better sound for movies and music. My amps and speakers are NOTHING special. 
Leaving just the center channel on the receiver also helped lighten the load and it sounds better as well.
A 3 channel amp for the fronts is next. 
I'll also be upgrading my rear amp to a used Adcom in the future. Just haven't decided which one.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Insearchof said:


> ^^^This
> Corner placement can help with boundary gain but IMO the soudstage suffers leading to localization.
> With 2 identical subs you may be able to minimize this.
> I'd give the Hsu and Rythmik subs a hard look if you aren't sure about the SVS offerings.
> ...


Good information there. I have the Krell showcase 7 which I will try out vs. the receiver however Krell power should be plentiful. Will be using my Denon X4000 as a pre-amp only.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Don't be afraid to experiment. I've always read 1/3 or 1/5 spacing was where to start. And every room is different. My subs are corner loaded(2rear one front) and my imaging and soundstage are fantastic. Just saying, there's no one size fits all.


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