# Looking at tube amps...



## Sonnie

I am back on the two-channel ban wagon again. I am about to go through a speaker evaluation pretty soon, considering several different speakers. I am looking for the right tube amp for that evaluation.

After hearing all the various tube amps at LSAF, I am sold on giving tubes a go in this system. Luther (Wardsweb) introduced me to several brands that I have been looking at. I am looking at the ProLogue Seven Monoblocks, which just happen to be on sale right now. These would be plenty of power to handle pretty much any speakers I decide to get... and have the "AdaptiveBias" feature to keep me from having to fool with setting the bias.

Another option is a pair of the Jolida JD-501P amps (120 watts mono each), which would save me about $600 over the ProLogue Seven's. However, I think the Seven's have a few added features that would be nice to have... and again, I would not have to worry about ever adjusting the bias.

Then the Rogue Cronus Magnum also looks like a fine choice as an integrated amp... including phono input... and KT120 tubes for plenty of power. I am impressed with this amp.

I am not sure if there are any others I should consider, as I really do not know much about tubes. I did not really want to spend $2,000 either, but I may.


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## Jeff Aguilar

All of those amps look very good. By going with a tube amp, you are opening up a bunch of possible tweaking! I wouldn't worry about biasing the tubes. It is so easy and only takes a couple of minutes, it is really not a problem. It's not like you need to bias them every time you turn on the amps! After breaking in, I find that it is about every 6 months that I am checking the bias, and most of the time, it is not even off enough for me to worry about.

You are going to find different tubes give you different flavors of sound. I have tried a few different affordable amps, like the Cayin TA-30 (which I really miss), the TA-1000's (100 watt mono block amps) and now I have the Yaqin MS-20L. It's a 60 watt per channel tube integrated. I have tried several different tube configurations and have settled on what sounds best in my room on my equipment. I love my tube gear.

I really enjoy the sound I get out of my tube gear. Once you settle on which one you want to purchase, I am sure you will be happy with your purchase.


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## Sonnie

Hey Jeff... good to hear from you... it's been a while.

I appreciate the info. I feel better about the bias situation if it is not too big of a deal, although I am highly forgetful. Maybe that will open me up to a few more options to save a little money.


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## tesseract

Sonnie, what are you you planning to use for a pre amp? I do have to say that is a lot of amp for $1000 speakers. 

The Jolida is nice, but the PrimaLuna and Rogue are definitely better, especially at the price. I wouldn't let bias setting be a selling point, many amps have simple user adjustments with bias meters or indicators to guide you.


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## Sonnie

Hey Dennis... wanna drive over to Bama for a evaluation session? 

The pre-amp will be the OPPO BDP-105... unless I get an integrated tube amp.

May just go the inexpensive route to start with... looking at a YAQIN MC-100B on ebay shipped from Canada. Read a lot of good things about these amps for the tube newb.


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## Sonnie

Found another "auto biasing" design with the Musical Paradise MP 501 KT120 out of Canada. Another option that looks promising, but it does not have pre-outs.


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## tesseract

Sonnie said:


> Hey Dennis... wanna drive over to Bama for a evaluation session?


Sonnie - I've certainly had the time, been off work for the last 7 weeks healing up from surgery (back to work soon). Would love to come listen for a while, I might have to make a trip that way someday. I think it is very cool that you are diving into 2 channel, you are going to have a lot of fun auditioning new gear and enjoying music.



> The pre-amp will be the OPPO BDP-105... unless I get an integrated tube amp.
> 
> May just go the inexpensive route to start with... looking at a YAQIN MC-100B on ebay shipped from Canada. Read a lot of good things about these amps for the tube newb.


YAQUIN has been doing well, and that amp is a powerhouse. Another company to look at is Cayin. I very much enjoyed the LSAF Black Hole Audio system with the Cayin A-50T integrated amp in it. 



Sonnie said:


> Found another "auto biasing" design with the Musical Paradise MP 501 KT120 out of Canada. Another option that looks promising.


I really like the features on the Musical Paradise amp, single ended Class A and zero feedback has my attention. You will want fairly efficient, high impedance speakers with something like that, but the few single ended amp systems I've heard sounded pretty wonderful.


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## tesseract

Not a recommendation, just something really cool to look at. A Bob Carver redesign and restore.

Who knows, I bet it sounds great!


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## Wardsweb

You are finding out very quickly how vast the tube world is. From designs, topology, tube manufacturers, equipment manufacturers, new, used, rebuilt, modded and on and on. Some are better than others, some are just different and some are personal taste.


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## Jeff Aguilar

Sonnie, 

I have had really good luck with the Yaqin integrated amp. If my budget would have allowed, I would have looked into the Cayin A-50T. I have tried amps with the EL34 and the KT88 tubes. For me, I like the sound of the EL34 tubes much more than I liked the sound from the KT88. Maybe because I heard the EL34 sound first, who knows, I just know that I liked the sound of those tubes, the warmth and detail, much more than the KT88's. Of course, this is just my opinion. I was able to hear both tube systems in my house through the same speakers.

When looking at tube amps (integrated amps) for my system, I really only looked at the EL34 amps. I have tried several different tube combinations and in the system I have now, I changed out the Chinese tubes that came with my amp to 4 NOS Mullards for the low end of the preamp and 4 of the GE JAN5654W's for the upper end of the preamp. I tried Golden Lion KT-77's in place of the EL34's and then changed those to Tung-Sol EL34B. It sounds incredible! I have them paired up with speakers that are really sensitive, the Energy Veritas 2.4's. Like everyone else, I have went through many, many speakers. I really like this set up for my two channel playback. That's all this system is for. My theater is upstairs.

Listening to records and CD's through my two channel system is incredible! I find that my teenage sons both use it regularly, records, cds and even their iPhones! I'll come home and the stereo will be cranking. My wife has, on several occasions let them know that they are spoiled and will not have a system of this quality when they move out. That is so true. I enjoy it and it is nice that others in my house enjoy it too! They show it off to their friends, it's quite satisfying.

Here is the setup in the family room. The TV is not going through the speakers, I have a sound bar for it.


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## Wardsweb

Here are a few of my tube amps. The low power 2A3 and 6DN7 are DIY. The curve side EL34 is also DIY. The others are a Shanling SP-80 monoblock. Final Labs Music 3 (only one ever made), and a rebuilt McIntosh MC240.


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## Sonnie

You guys are killing me here. 

I guess I am just gonna have to get two or three tube amps with the different tubes and give each a try so that I make sure I get what I really want. 

I did read where the EL34 tubes were more of that traditional tube sound that the KT88's. What is the difference between the EL34 and EL34B?


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## Sonnie

Another question... for those that do not have a phono input... what will I need to be able to use my turntable.


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## Wardsweb

It is always best to hear different gear before you buy. Starting a local audio group that rotates get togethers among the member's homes is always nice. Finding a local dealer that will let you audition in your home is good. You could always buy the Prima Luna 7 that will allow you to plug and play lots of tubes; KT88s, 6550, KT90, EL-34, KT77, 6CA7, 6L6GC, KT66, 7581, and EL37. That way you only buy tubes and not a lot of different amplifiers. 

My pictures from top to bottom are:

1) Bottlehead Paramour that run single ended triode (SET) 2A3 with about 3 1/2 watts per channel. 
2) DIY scratch built stereo 2A3 SET with a separate power supply chassis.
3) Bottlehead 6DN7 SET with about 1 1/2 watts per channel. These require high efficiency speakers. 
4) DIY scratch built stereo EL34 based on the Dynaco ST70 amp but with an improved design and parts.
5) Shanling SP-80 mono block with 6CA7EH tubes, sometime called a fat bottle EL34 at about 50 watts per channel.
6) Final Labs with the case open has traditional EL34 (smaller glass) at about 40 watts per channel. 
7) McIntosh MC240 running Windged "C" 6L6GC at about 40 watts per channel.


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## Sonnie

I see that now: _ In addition to KT88s, you can use 6550, KT90, EL-34, KT77, 6CA7, 6L6GC, KT66, 7581, EL37, and any of their equivalents._

How are you able to know how much power each tube will produce?


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## Wardsweb

Don't get to hung up on high power. The difference from 40 watts to 80 watts is only about 3dB to the human ear. The KT88 in the Primaluna is about 70 watts. Most of the other tubes are in the 40 watt range. Primaluna under drives their amps. This gives you very clean audio and extended tube life. Tube life even more so with their soft start circuit.


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## Sonnie

What about the phono input... is there a inexpensive method of getting that?


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## Wardsweb

Sonnie said:


> What about the phono input... is there a inexpensive method of getting that?


Phono preamps are like any other piece of audio gear. You can find them from $20 to $20,000. You plug your turntable into it and it raises the voltage to about 250mv that other input devices have, so you can then plug the phono pre into any line level input; aux, CD, tape, etc. 

What turntable and cartridge will you be using?


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## tonyvdb

Gotta say I really like the looks of this one


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## Sonnie

Beautiful, but I imagine very expensive as well.

Luther... my turntable is a Denon DP-300F with the factory cartridge... nothing special.


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## Wardsweb

tonyvdb said:


> Gotta say I really like the looks of this one


I run the Shanling SP-80 mono blocks in my main two channel system. The Electro Harmonix 6CA7EH tubes have been great. 7 years and still going strong. The amps have a variable input gain that I use to run them 30dB down on input. My horns don't need all the power.


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## Jeff Aguilar

I have always loved the looks of the Shanling amps. Those are beautiful amps. I love the look of their CD player too. It must sound really good to have them in your main system when you have so many different amps to choose from.

For the record player, I am using a very affordable Yaqin MS22-B. It is only for MM. It was about $200. My record player isn't high end at all, it is a Music Hall 2.2, entry level record player. 

From the research I could come up with, the EL34"B" is the Chinese designation for the EL34. I don't think they are different than the EL34's.


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## AudiocRaver

Sonnie,

I have been watching this thread with interest. My curiosity question:

Are you planning detailed listening tests to compare to your other equipment? Do you have any kind of "tubes vs. solid state" agenda? Or is this a "just for fun, if I like the sound that is all that matters" type of acquisition?


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## Wardsweb

Sonnie said:


> Beautiful, but I imagine very expensive as well.
> 
> Luther... my turntable is a Denon DP-300F with the factory cartridge... nothing special.


You don't need anything exotic to start. This one works well and has a gain control.

http://www.phonopreamps.com/tc750lcpp.html


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## Sonnie

AudiocRaver said:


> Sonnie,
> 
> I have been watching this thread with interest. My curiosity question:
> 
> Are you planning detailed listening tests to compare to your other equipment? Do you have any kind of "tubes vs. solid state" agenda? Or is this a "just for fun, if I like the sound that is all that matters" type of acquisition?


More for fun I would say. I want to experience the tube sound and do some tube rolling, so whatever I get, I hope it will be something where I can try out several different tubes, especially the EL34 vs the KT88. After I settle on a pair of speakers, I may later try a solid state amp on them just to hear the difference between the tubes and solid state. 



Wardsweb said:


> You don't need anything exotic to start. This one works well and has a gain control.
> 
> http://www.phonopreamps.com/tc750lcpp.html


Awesome... seems like it won't be all that expensive after all. Thanks!


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## Wardsweb

The 502CRC would be a good choice. As an integrated, Just hook up your source, your speakers and you are good to go. You get a lot of flexibility and tube oiling.


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## Sonnie

I am kind of thinking I may end up wanting a small sub for this two-channel system. I don't know for sure yet, but will find out once I get these speakers in here for evaluation. Since I am using the OPPO 105 as my primary source, I can use the SW preout on the back of it to feed a sub, but that won't help with the turntable. Can the Fixed/Variable Outputs on the back of the Jolida be used for sub preouts?


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## Wardsweb

Sonnie said:


> I am kind of thinking I may end up wanting a small sub for this two-channel system. I don't know for sure yet, but will find out once I get these speakers in here for evaluation. Since I am using the OPPO 105 as my primary source, I can use the SW preout on the back of it to feed a sub, but that won't help with the turntable. Can the Fixed/Variable Outputs on the back of the Jolida be used for sub preouts?


Yes, it can. These are full range out, but most powered subs have built in low pass.


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## Sonnie

After doing more research and reading... I think (you know how that goes) that I have finally narrowed it down to the Rogue Cronus Magnum with KT120 tubes. It seems to make the most sense, as it has the phono input, pre-outs and is available in all black. It will have plenty of power to handle just about any speaker I throw at it ... and I can experiment with other tubes as well. I think this is my first choice.

I believe an integrated amp is more feasible for my setup. I think my second choice will be the newer Jolida Fusion JD 3502, which isn't on Jolida's site yet, but they have one in stock in Maryland, according to one of their dealers. It is not quite the power of the Cronus Magnum and does not have phono input, so it does not get the nod... yet, it does have XLR inputs and I don't listen to phono as much as I probably should because a lot of what I like is not offered on vinyl... or I don't want to spend the money to get it.

I have pretty much discarded PrimaLuna, as they don't really have a comparable integrated solution that seems to fit as well within that $2K range.


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## AudiocRaver

Looks like a nice choice. You are going to have some fun experimentation time ahead of you developing those "golden ears.":sn::sn: BTW, the glowing suns are jokingly symbolic of your soon-to-be-glowing valve output stages. Do you get special shades with that amp?


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## Sonnie

I don't know about ever having golden ears, but I am game for some different sounds. I know it will be fun. We'll have a solid state amp or hybrid amp on standby for comparison.


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## Savjac

Thank you for starting this thread as I have been playing a bit as well.
I have not decided on an amp/integrated yet as there are several I am looking at including a nice deal on a Dared integrated. I built a set of high efficiency speakers with the 8" Tang Bands and they sound absolutely stunning. Single driver full range speaker that will not reproduce The Who volume levels but with some sanity involved they truly shine. Thus far I have only used SS amp preamp although using a Tube Dac helps a tad. Believe it or not, these speakers let me hear into the recording better than most anything I have heard at least in the less than say speakers bought for a couple thousand dollars worth. 

Now I am told by others that have used this driver that they work substantially better with tubes, particularly with a class A triode amp that may be more than I want to experiment with. So your thoughts are very valuable.


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## Wardsweb

Savjac said:


> Thank you for starting this thread as I have been playing a bit as well.
> I have not decided on an amp/integrated yet as there are several I am looking at including a nice deal on a Dared integrated. I built a set of high efficiency speakers with the 8" Tang Bands and they sound absolutely stunning. Single driver full range speaker that will not reproduce The Who volume levels but with some sanity involved they truly shine. Thus far I have only used SS amp preamp although using a Tube Dac helps a tad. Believe it or not, these speakers let me hear into the recording better than most anything I have heard at least in the less than say speakers bought for a couple thousand dollars worth.
> 
> Now I am told by others that have used this driver that they work substantially better with tubes, particularly with a class A triode amp that may be more than I want to experiment with. So your thoughts are very valuable.


Absolutely your speakers would benefit from a nice SET amp. You don't need a lot of power. They are very efficient. A 2A3 or 300B is magical with single driver full range speakers. If you want more punch, then a push pull amp with 20 watts will rock your world.


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## Savjac

Thank you for your thoughts, they are very welcomed.
I have been offered this integrated at about half the original price. The owner bought it, liked it but found the Bottlehead Stereomour closer to his liking in a very small room. So it is up for sale. I may have to hit the savings account....again. :innocent:










The manual says 30wpc but reviews put it closer to about 16-20 so this should be more than enough.


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## Sonnie

Nice looking amp!


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## Savjac

It is nice looking but seems to be an AB amp and not the SET everyone has recommended I try. So instead one of these will be here by this weekend and music will flow. I am feeling good about this and have my music ready to go.


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## rongon

Savjac said:


> It is nice looking but seems to be an AB amp and not the SET everyone has recommended I try. So instead one of these will be here by this weekend and music will flow. I am feeling good about this and have my music ready to go.


What kind of output tubes are those? Sovtek 6L6GC? Also, how are the output tubes configured? Pentode? "Ultralinear"? Or Triode-wired? Does the amp use negative feedback loops to lower distortion? Or is this one of those "zero negative feedback" amps? 

Or, maybe there's a link to its specs?


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## Savjac

They are EH tubes and here us the web page for this amp. It sounds very good actually.

http://www.tubedepot.com/diy-ek-tu-879s.html


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## HughACA

Sonnie,

Did you say tubes? 

I forgot whether or not you got some decent time in our room at RMAF?


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## Sonnie

Hi Hugh...

I got a little time in, but not what I would have liked to. 

I tried to buy a Melody amp from a dealer in Mobile that had one up for sale a couple of months ago. I sent him an email or PM on the Chase forum and made him an offer for $900, after he stated he was asking $1,000 and was taking offers. I never got a response from him, but called his dealership and left a message for him. I was going to give him the full $1,000... but he never called me back. I later learned he sold it for more, or at least I think I remember that way.

Anyway... I almost was an owner of your brand. I have read nothing but good about them.


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## HughACA

Morning Sonnie,

Robert is no longer a dealer.

Plus you're lucky you didn't end up buying that unit (long story).

Anyway, in the future, feel free to drop either Tim or I a call.

Thanks,


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## Wardsweb

Hi Hugh - I checked out your website and must say, you carry some very nice stuff. I spoke with Sonnie at length on tube amps and audio in general a few weeks ago. Just trying to get him up to speed. Seems he hit the ground running and is catching up fast. 

I presently have a McIntosh MC240, Shanling SP-80 monoblocks, Jolida JD-1000E, Final Labs Music-3 EL34, and a few DIY 2A3, EL34 and 6DN7 amps. Tubes with horns or electrostats are my weakness.


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## HughACA

Thanks and if I may say so myself, you got some nice stuff there.

Will see how much Sonnie will like his tubes. 


Wardsweb said:


> Hi Hugh - I checked out your website and must say, you carry some very nice stuff. I spoke with Sonnie at length on tube amps and audio in general a few weeks ago. Just trying to get him up to speed. Seems he hit the ground running and is catching up fast.
> 
> I presently have a McIntosh MC240, Shanling SP-80 monoblocks, Jolida JD-1000E, Final Labs Music-3 EL34, and a few DIY 2A3, EL34 and 6DN7 amps. Tubes with horns or electrostats are my weakness.


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## tweakman

Have a look at a Leben amp if one is available.


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## Philkarlin

It's worth pointing out that not all speakers match up with tube amps. The speakers typically need to have mild impedance and phase curves, and impedance should not get too low. Dips to 2 ohms are not good. 8 ohms dipping to 5 is better.

When I decided to try tube amps, first I hooked up a friend's medium powered amp to my Totem Arros. Sounded horrible. I proceeded to buy speakers first, with low power SET in mind, then bought an amp that matched the speakers. Chicken and the egg, I guess.

Phil


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## Wardsweb

Philkarlin said:


> It's worth pointing out that not all speakers match up with tube amps. The speakers typically need to have mild impedance and phase curves, and impedance should not get too low. Dips to 2 ohms are not good. 8 ohms dipping to 5 is better.
> 
> When I decided to try tube amps, first I hooked up a friend's medium powered amp to my Totem Arros. Sounded horrible. I proceeded to buy speakers first, with low power SET in mind, then bought an amp that matched the speakers. Chicken and the egg, I guess.
> 
> Phil


I think a better statement may be, "not all speakers match up with all tube amps." you need to match the amp to the speakers. I have Martin Logan Prodigy driven by a 100 watt per channel tube amp with no issues and the Prodigy's dip down too 2 ohms. I have other single driver full range that work well with 1.5 watts per channel.


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## Philkarlin

Wardsweb said:


> I think a better statement may be, "not all speakers match up with all tube amps." you need to match the amp to the speakers. I have Martin Logan Prodigy driven by a 100 watt per channel tube amp with no issues and the Prodigy's dip down too 2 ohms. I have other single driver full range that work well with 1.5 watts per channel.


Fair enough. I admire precise language.

It was one aspect of the topic that I did not see addressed, and it's useful to understand. Would you agree that attention should be paid to matching a tube amp to a speaker to a degree not necessary with solid state?

Phil

P.S. I like this smiley: lddude:


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## Wardsweb

Personally I would match any amp, but yes sand amps are a little more forgiving, as long as they can handle the impedance. I can't use just any amp with the Prodigy's. My CLS were even more difficult and my Apogee Duetta's are the most difficult I have ever seen. The Apogee's can toast an amp not up to the task.


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## class a

You may want to check out the Unison Research Simply Italy integrated. Match them w/some Kef LS-50's or the Opera Mezza speakers (which I heard them with) you'll have a great set up. The Opera's are the same price as the KEFs.:T


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