# New receiver or am I chasing my tail?



## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

Hi all -

My name is Mike, and I'm a home theater junkie  I love the immersion that a great home theater setup can provide, hearing things flying around you while you're immersed in the movie. Because I'm also a tech junkie, I have a tendency to chase after the 'next cool thing' which can be a problem...which leads me to my question:

Is replacing my current AV receiver worthwhile?

I'm running a Pioneer VSX-33 that I bought a couple of years ago. I've got it setup in a 7.1 setup using Dolby PL-IIz most of the time. My Klipsch Icon fronts are bi-amped and I have the Icon surrounds acting as front height speakers. I've thought about moving the 'heights' to front sides, but I really don't want to mount them on the wall yet. The Polk FXiA4's are setup as surrounds in a di-pole configuration. The room is undoubtedly hurting me as I've got a wide-open space behind my viewing area.

My _perception_ is that the VSX-33 may be a bit underpowered because I've had to manually bump the output power by 2-3db per speaker to get the response I want. I'll leave it to those with more experience to tell me whether my perception is accurate or not. I'm also interested in Audyssey versus PLIIz.

I've considered going into a new Onkyo TXNR-717 or 818 or Denon AVR-2313/3313 receiver. Thoughts on whether it would be a noticeable improvement?

Thanks in advance!

Mike


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

Well, you'd rather be overpowered than underpowered, especially if you like to listen to movies at reference volume.

And Audyssey is great for tricky rooms or rooms that you have no time/budget to properly sound treat (dimensions, bass traps, diffusers, etc). Audyssey won't fix all those problems, but it does a great job at lessening their annoyances.

So you are likely to get some benefit from upgrading, but it's up to you on how annoying the room acoustics and possible dynamic range compression are. 

Can you split the difference and go to an outboard amp? That would take care of any underpowered problems and if you want Audyssey or other features in the future, you can upgrade the preamp/receiver then.

Welcome to the Shack! :wave:


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## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

Thanks for the super-quick response Anthony!

That, I suppose, is a big part of the question: _am I_ underpowered for my speaker load? From my reading, the benefit of bi-amping is dubious at best. I've strongly considered reverting to a non-biamped setup on the fronts.

Unfortunately, I don't know even where to begin to sound treat the room. It'd be a giant task from my perspective. While the fronts are on either side of the tv, the surrounds have nothing but open space behind them.

Wouldn't I be spending about as much money on an outboard amp as I would on another receiver?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I agree, the receiver could be a bit underpowered depending on what speakers your using particularly for your LCR.
Bi-Amping is hardly worth the effort as it wont improve sound quality and really does not ad any advantage as far as spreading the power load.


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## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

Apologies, as I'd expected the details of my system to show up in the post.

Fronts: Klipsch Icon KF-28
Center: Klipsch Icon KC-25
Front Height: Klipch Icon KS-14
Surround: Polk FXiA4


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The Icon's are very efficient speakers, Im not sure what benefit replacing the receiver would give you other than Audyssey XT32 on the Onkyo 818 being a big step up. Adding an external amp may give you piece of mind but Im not sure its really necessary.


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## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> The Icon's are very efficient speakers, Im not sure what benefit replacing the receiver would give you other than Audyssey XT32 on the Onkyo 818 being a big step up. Adding an external amp may give you piece of mind but Im not sure its really necessary.


Tonyvdb - 

thanks for the feedback. Did I misunderstand that the Audyssey is a similar technology to PLIIz for supporting different sound stages? I know that Audyssey XT32 is for room correction, but I thought that Audyssey also provided front height/wide speaker support and, based upon what I read, thought it provided a better soundstage that PLIIz.

Thanks!

Mike


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Audyssey DSX is what you are referring to. and it is supposed to do a nicer job of expanding the standard 5.1 or 7.1 audio to 9.1 channels. 
Audyssey is a better room EQ system than what Pioneer uses ((MCACC) as it also adjusts the sub frequencies well below 63Hz


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## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

Thanks for the clarification Tony. Would you consider the Audyssey DSX and room correction to be of sufficient improvement as to warrant the upgrade?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

If you go with the Onkyo 818 then I would say yes it is worth it. Having the added filters of XT32 you will get some very good results sound wise.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

And remember this is home theater. You are always going to be chasing the next best thing. That is the nature of the beast.

And welcome to the shack.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

MJMcMahon said:


> Hi all -
> 
> My name is Mike, and I'm a home theater junkie  I love the immersion that a great home theater setup can provide, hearing things flying around you while you're immersed in the movie. Because I'm also a tech junkie, I have a tendency to chase after the 'next cool thing' which can be a problem...which leads me to my question:
> 
> ...


Mike,
With speakers as efficient as your Klipschs I certainly do not think power is the issue. However, I do think you will benefit Audyssey as well as Acoustical Treatments. I do think XT32 would help bring out the best in the Klipschs, but I do not think you are lacking in power. Whatever you do, please do not get a TX-NR717 as it amazingly went up to $1000 MSRP while downgrading to Audyssey 2EQ. (the predecessor 709 used MultEQ XT)
Cheers,
JJ


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## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

Jungle Jack said:


> Mike,
> With speakers as efficient as your Klipschs I certainly do not think power is the issue. However, I do think you will benefit Audyssey as well as Acoustical Treatments. I do think XT32 would help bring out the best in the Klipschs, but I do not think you are lacking in power. Whatever you do, please do not get a TX-NR717 as it amazingly went up to $1000 MSRP while downgrading to Audyssey 2EQ. (the predecessor 709 used MultEQ XT)
> Cheers,
> JJ


Thanks for the feedback on the NR717. It's a tough decision figuring out which direction to go.

A couple more questions: what do you guys think the VSX-33 would be worth on the used market? ~$500??

Do you think I'd benefit more (from a sound quality perspective) having someone come in and do a professional installation on the speakers in my living room? The reason I ask is that I'm a computer geek, not an audio professional. Other than physically placing the speakers in what the documentation says is "right" and running MCACC or a similar tuning feature, I have no idea what I'm doing. In order to get things to sound the way I want them, I bump up the levels on each channel until they give me the full sound I'm looking for.

Forgive all the dumb questions...

Mike


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

There is never such a thing as "a dumb question" ask away and we will do the best we can to help. 
From personal experience getting a so called pro in can yield great results however its hit and miss as to if the so called pro is really going to do a proper job. Im positive that we can get you going without having to spend the money going that route. Audyssey MultEQ XT 32 on the Onkyo 818 is very straight forward and is just a matter of following the on screen instructions and making sure you use a tripod for the setup mic.


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## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

Appreciate the generosity with your time, Tony. 

I may try and get a 'pro' in to look at my setup as the positioning within the room will definitely affect sound response and I don't want to mount wall plugs until I know nothing's going to move.

Now the difficult part: trying to find a retailer locally that stocks the Onkyo so I can grab 'n' go!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

How about getting one from Here That price is hard to beat and it would only take a few days for you to get it.


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## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

very tempting, but I'll likely need to get it thru a local store where I have a line of credit, at least until I sell the Pioneer.


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## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

What's your thoughts on the Denon 2313? That's one that I can get locally and seems like it compares with the Onkyo pretty well?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The Denon is less power and does not have Multi EQ XT32. Its really a much lesser receiver.


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## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

Thanks Tony....I didn't see that the Denon 2313 had a lower-end audio calibration. I might have to (and probably should) wait until after tax time.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Im shocked that you dont have a local store that caries the Onkyo 818? Its a very popular model.


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## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

Tony - 

yeah, the problem is that Boise, despite being the capital of Idaho, isn't all that large of a city. It's very common to have to order just about everything off the internet. Unfortunately, that doesn't fit my "I want it NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWW!" approach to life


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

LOL, trust me its even worse living in Canada as the prices here are so badly inflated its still often cheaper to order from the US and ship up here. Hold out for the 818 it will be worth it.


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## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

sigh....party pooper! 

no input on the value of the VSX-33?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Maybe $300 Unfortunately used equipment just does not sell for very much.


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## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

ouch...oh well, better to be reasonable from the outset than to be disappointed.


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## MJMcMahon (Feb 21, 2013)

Tony and others - 

I just read about Onkyo's 24P bug with the 818. I have to admit that I have no idea whether my bluray is outputting at 24P or something else, or even if that's possible. Before I drop the cash on the receiver, can someone more familiar with the nature of the bug tell me whether it's likely to affect me or if the bug has been addressed?

Thanx!

Mike


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

MJMcMahon said:


> Tony and others -
> 
> I just read about Onkyo's 24P bug with the 818. I have to admit that I have no idea whether my bluray is outputting at 24P or something else, or even if that's possible. Before I drop the cash on the receiver, can someone more familiar with the nature of the bug tell me whether it's likely to affect me or if the bug has been addressed?
> 
> ...


Mike,
Onkyo has come up with a fix for the 24fps bug. At this point, they only seem to be offering it on a case by case basis via a link to download the fix as opposed to a general release firmware update. That being said, I would imagine this fix will be included in the next firmware update.

Tony is spot on about the advantages of the 818 over the 2313CI. The 818 is truly in another league offering a far more robust amplifier stage, XT32, the finest video processor tandem on any AVR/SSP in HQV Vida/Marvell Qdeo, Preamp Outputs, THX Post Processing, Dolby Volume, and I am sure I am missing other features.

It is nice that the Denon offers AirPlay, but a $99 Apple TV offers far greater Airplay functionality. I do not even use AirPlay on my 4520CI as the Apple TV handles Video. This is especially important now that HBO GO and Max GO support AirPlay. 

This is truly huge, especially with HBO, as now you can watch every single episode of The Sopranos, Entourage, Band of Brothers, The Pacific, Extras, The Ricky Gervais Show, The Wire, one of my favorite shows of all time in Generation Kill, Game of Thrones, and every other original programming offered by HBO. HBO On Demand offers roughly 1/50th of the programming that HBO GO offers. Much of it is even in Dolby Digital. This functionality was just added a little over a week ago via an iOS Update to HBO GO and Max Go.
Cheers,
JJ


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