# Speaker wires question



## daopi (Mar 21, 2014)

In my pursuit for the best deal in speaker cables for me, I ended up at Home Depot (Canada) and I got Carol brand 14 gauge in wall speaker cable (1702). Actually I wanted 12 gauge but can't find it. Anyway, my idea was to increase the gauge by doubling the cable (I twisted the ends of the wires on each cable) having now more than 12 gauge. I ended up with two separate cables running to each speaker, one per polarity. To be clear, my wires are *not* running in the wall and each one is about 7 feet long. 

I noticed on some videos on youtube that some high end systems are running the cables on the floor using some spacers to keep them parallel. Do I have to do that? Right now the speakers sound super nice with the cables running their own way (cleaner and punchier than RCA 12 gauge CCA speaker wires, the sound has more courage). Also, I noticed that inside the insulation of each cable the wires have a slow twist, maybe one in 4 inches or so. 

BTW, I spent $12 on cables for the front speakers.

Thanks!


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

daopi said:


> In my pursuit for the best deal in speaker cables for me, I ended up at Home Depot (Canada) and I got Carol brand 14 gauge in wall speaker cable (1702). Actually I wanted 12 gauge but can't find it. Anyway, my idea was to increase the gauge by doubling the cable (I twisted the ends of the wires on each cable) having now more than 12 gauge. I ended up with two separate cables running to each speaker, one per polarity. To be clear, my wires are *not* running in the wall and each one is about 7 feet long.
> 
> I noticed on some videos on youtube that some high end systems are running the cables on the floor using some spacers to keep them parallel. Do I have to do that? Right now the speakers sound super nice with the cables running their own way (cleaner and punchier than RCA 12 gauge CCA speaker wires, the sound has more courage). Also, I noticed that inside the insulation of each cable the wires have a slow twist, maybe one in 4 inches or so.
> 
> ...


I would have to say no... If your system sounds good the way it is (to you) leave it.


----------



## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

I agree. there's really no need


----------



## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

There's a lot of voodoo around cables and wire. In 99% of systems it makes no difference. As long as the signals get from point a to point b with minimal resistance you'll achieve desired results. 

Lifters (the things that pick the cables up off the floor) are a tweak that are more for show than performance. The reason they can improve sound is when some cables are left alone and used extensively you can pickup a little static charge on the line. Really high end systems can reveal the charge. Moving the cables a bit will counteract this effect. It's the act of adding the lifters that will effect SQ not the lifters themselves. 

...at least that's my understanding.


----------



## Almadacr (May 5, 2011)

Propably what you saw or heard was this !










It's just for me a scam in the audiophile world to sell stuff like some other things . If you like what you are listening ...enjoy it .


----------



## daopi (Mar 21, 2014)

So I guess on my $100 & 20+ years old speakers the lifters won't make a difference. All I know is that Carol Brand cables say that the copper used has same resistance like Oxygen Free Copper. So when will oxidize in 10 years I will spent $12 more again.


----------



## daopi (Mar 21, 2014)

Almadacr said:


> Propably what you saw or heard was this !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was watching 



 and I saw to cables running parallel on lifters. No way I have room for that things!


----------



## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

rab-byte said:


> There's a lot of voodoo around cables and wire. In 99% of systems it makes no difference. As long as the signals get from point a to point b with minimal resistance you'll achieve desired results.
> 
> Lifters (the things that pick the cables up off the floor) are a tweak that are more for show than performance. The reason they can improve sound is when some cables are left alone and used extensively you can pickup a little static charge on the line. Really high end systems can reveal the charge. Moving the cables a bit will counteract this effect. It's the act of adding the lifters that will effect SQ not the lifters themselves.
> 
> ...at least that's my understanding.


This is fiction, and here's why it can't be a static charge. Static charges naturally drain to ground, sometimes quickly with an arc. The resistance to ground needed to completely drain a static charge is in the millions of ohms...meaning, just about anything except a deliberate insulator or dry air. Every amplifier in the world provides that path, typically far, far lower resistance, to ground. Therefore, no static charge can build up on speaker wires, simply impossible. Regardless, lifting them off the floor would, if anything, increase the chances of static buildup, not degrease it, if it were possible at all, which it isn't. The only way to develop a static charge on a run of speaker wire is to disconnect it from the amplifier. So forget the insulators, unless you like the way they look.

Let's go a step farther regarding the dual runs of 14ga. Why? What would you achieve? The loop resistance of 7 feet of 14ga is .0353 ohms, already so low the typical connection could easily be higher. So what are we trying to accomplish? Cut the already vanishingly low wire resistance in half? Even 12ga wire has a loop resistance of .0222 ohms. There's simply no problem to solve here, no reason to double-run 14ga. Unless, again, you like the look.

Just to head this one off too, let's not go to the idea of single conductors widely spaced...which actually raises the inductance of the entire circuit significantly, something you do NOT want to do. And no coat-hangers either, please. 

If you're dying for exotic but affordable speaker wire, go score some RG-213 coax and use that. It won't sound better or worse that 14ga over a 7' run, but at least you'll feel you've done something "special" by using a cable that has only 1dB loss for 100' at 30MHz. Now THAT's bandwidth! Try THAT with any speaker cable...not that it matters...


----------



## vanderschel (Dec 27, 2012)

I typically use outdoor lighting cable for speaker wire, if its not an in-wall run. It's flexible, durable, reasonably priced and readily available.


----------



## Almadacr (May 5, 2011)

daopi said:


> I was watching this video and I saw to cables running parallel on lifters. No way I have room for that things!




In this pic you have same brand ( Wilson audio ) different speaker ( Alexia ) , $48 000 pair , do you see any speaker cable riser ? 

BTW audio show expositor Wilson Audio room .


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

The reason for cable lifters is the same as the reason for many other accessories...if you like the look, they make you feel better about your system, or if you believe what people say they do. Whether they make any difference or not (and IMO clearly they do not) if you beleive they might, you may experience what you feel is better sound. 

Of course, there is always the possibility that they are made of the wrong material, or oriented in a manner that is sub optimal, and the result may be a perceived performance decrement. If you believe, you have to account for the possibility that there are negative effects as well as positive, don't you?


----------



## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

lcaillo said:


> The reason for cable lifters is the same as the reason for many other accessories...if you like the look, they make you feel better about your system, or if you believe what people say they do. Whether they make any difference or not (and IMO clearly they do not) if you believe they might, you may experience what you feel is better sound.


...in other words, a positive placebo effect.


lcaillo said:


> Of course, there is always the possibility that they are made of the wrong material, or oriented in a manner that is sub optimal, and the result may be a perceived performance decrement. If you believe, you have to account for the possibility that there are negative effects as well as positive, don't you?


There's no more probability of a negative effect than a positive one...and both have an exceedingly low probability, well below statistical noise.


----------



## daopi (Mar 21, 2014)

Looking at all responses, I can see that the biggest issue is not if the cables are on lifters or not but is a question of inductance. Because for each speaker I have two independent cables running for each polarity, question is what should I try to do in order to minimize the inductance:

A. Let the cables run their natural way. Nothing parallel or any particular pattern. In some areas are touching, some are 1/4" distance and sort of parallel, and other areas are like 1 foot distance and in angle to each other. Reminder: the cables for each polarity are made of two wires slightly braided.

B. Wrap the cables together

C. Braid again the cables and wrap.

D. Run the cables parallel at some distance. 

What do you think?


----------



## macromicroman (May 17, 2014)

I buy all my speaker cables, and most other interconnect cables from monoprice. Their prices are great and I don't believe expensive cables are worth the price. If you use 4 conductor wire you can wrap two strands together for the positives and the other two for the negatives and use this on the amp end. You then can use the four wires on the other ends to bi-wire (high and low frequencies) on your speakers if you have dual binding post.


----------



## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

daopi said:


> Looking at all responses, I can see that the biggest issue is not if the cables are on lifters or not but is a question of inductance. Because for each speaker I have two independent cables running for each polarity, question is what should I try to do in order to minimize the inductance:
> No, there is not an inductance problem
> A. Let the cables run their natural way. Nothing parallel or any particular pattern. In some areas are touching, some are 1/4" distance and sort of parallel, and other areas are like 1 foot distance and in angle to each other. Reminder: the cables for each polarity are made of two wires slightly braided.
> It does not matter how the wires are run or if they touch.
> ...


I think you are over thinking it, a lot.

A single 14AWG speaker wire on a 7ft run to each speaker is as close to perfect as you can get.
There is not an electrical problem to solve here.


----------



## TomFord (Jul 15, 2014)

gazoink said:


> This is fiction, and here's why it can't be a static charge. Static charges naturally drain to ground, sometimes quickly with an arc. The resistance to ground needed to completely drain a static charge is in the millions of ohms...meaning, just about anything except a deliberate insulator or dry air. Every amplifier in the world provides that path, typically far, far lower resistance, to ground. Therefore, no static charge can build up on speaker wires, simply impossible. Regardless, lifting them off the floor would, if anything, increase the chances of static buildup, not degrease it, if it were possible at all, which it isn't. The only way to develop a static charge on a run of speaker wire is to disconnect it from the amplifier. So forget the insulators, unless you like the way they look.
> 
> Let's go a step farther regarding the dual runs of 14ga. Why? What would you achieve? The loop resistance of 7 feet of 14ga is .0353 ohms, already so low the typical connection could easily be higher. So what are we trying to accomplish? Cut the already vanishingly low wire resistance in half? Even 12ga wire has a loop resistance of .0222 ohms. There's simply no problem to solve here, no reason to double-run 14ga. Unless, again, you like the look.
> 
> ...


Haha. Good post


----------



## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I use 12g 100% pure copper lamp chord and I am very happy with it and find there is no difference than when I ran all Monster so called high grade cable. I don't buy anything Monster anymore. Here is some great info that I am sure most people here have seen but if you haven't it is worth looking over. 
http://search.tb.ask.com/search/red...1OUVx6UJdM+D1TEJx5i9jL/fEHrlISdptHhw==&ord=1&


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Speaker wire can not pick up interference that would affect sound quality . You could run bare wire across the floor and as long as it did not short against the other wire you would still not have any issues. Just make sure the AWG is large enough and you wont have any issues even using lamp cord.


----------



## Skytrooper (Feb 1, 2014)

The ideal cable lifters would be 2 Hotties, Miss Left and Miss Right. As you are listening, you can have them raise and lower your speaker cables til they sound just right!


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Skytrooper said:


> The ideal cable lifters would be 2 Hotties, Miss Left and Miss Right. As you are listening, you can have them raise and lower your speaker cables til they sound just right!


Now we talkin! If their both hot enough, I might get confused and they could both be miss "right". Lol
Btw, thank you for your service.


----------



## GCG (Aug 22, 2013)

Jokes aside, here's spreadsheet from TNTAudio on combining gauges.

www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/wirecalculator.xls

I ignore most of the damping factor stuff until it gets really low. (low two digits to single)

Lifters?, paralleled? ... uh? ... no.


----------



## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

:spend: :duh: :coocoo::joke:

looks that's about it. If you have the time and patience you can make these "cool" looking speaker cables, they would at least be a conversation piece


----------



## orion (Sep 18, 2009)

Those lifters remind me of the old knob and tube you will sometime find in the wiring of old houses. I guess it kinda looks cool but thats about it.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Oh Oh, now we are going to have HTS members climbing up power poles steeling the ceramic insulators.


----------



## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> Oh Oh, now we are going to have HTS members climbing up power poles steeling the ceramic insulators.


eBay...some are very cheap and pretty. And that seemed to be a couple of important criteria in earlier posts.


----------



## Skytrooper (Feb 1, 2014)

gazoink said:


> eBay...some are very cheap and pretty. And that seemed to be a couple of important criteria in earlier posts.


Looks like old Railroad Pole Line which I used to deal with years ago. When communications would go down, that was the first thing we looked for, Air Gaps. Being the the wire was un insulated bare copper, thieves loved it.

Now the railroad will have a new threat, Cable Lifter Thieves.:devil:

I do have some of these insulators and never even dreamed of using them as cable lifters. Some of those insulators bring big bucks to collectors.


----------

