# Owlfan Ground Up Theater



## owlfan12000 (Jul 2, 2007)

I'm talking to two custom home builders about a new home and I have this preliminary design back from one of them.  

Some basic home/theater plans:
One story on concrete slab.
Brick or possibly stucco exterior.
Located in Oklahoma where it gets hot in the summer (100+) and cold in the winter (10-20) so exterior wall insulation is more important than exterior sound insulation.
Seating for 6 in two rows desired, couches or theater seating TBD.
Building the house to allow for aging in place so we want to have make the theater handicap accessible with minimal mods if we end up in a wheelchair later.
Current design is 2300 sq ft but I would be willing to grow it up to 2500 sq ft.
Up to 9 ft ceilings are fairly standard for this kind of house.

Some questions:
1. What size should I make the room? As shown the room is 16' 0" x 18' 8" but that includes some exterior walls so the interior dimensions are as much as a foot less. If I move the equipment closet to the south wall of the room I can expand the 16' 0" to 18' 6" without much trouble. The other dimension is pretty flexible. I've been trying to meet the best or second best room sizes shown on this web site http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/room_sizing/?content=best and in this spreadsheet http://www.whealy.com/acoustics/Control Room Calculator V2.63 XL2007.zip. Unfortunately I'm running into a bit of analysis paralysis considering all of the variables. 

2. Should I have an equipment closet or would some sort of an equipment rack be better for ventilation?

3. If I move the equipment closet to the south wall I might be able to combine it with the walk in closet of the adjacent room so I have a rectangular space or I might just have an extra rectangle in one corner. The extra rectangle might be easier. Would that make the acoustics significantly more complicated?

4. I could have a ceiling of up to 10 ft by having a raised area in the center of the room (I'm not sure what this is called). I assume that would only complicate the acoustics. Correct?

5. Any thoughts on the where the door should be relative to the screen? If I have the screen on the south wall it would be easier to add a riser in the north end of the room and still keep the front row wheel chair accessible. That would put the door near the screen. Right now it is on the west wall but I could also move some things around and have it enter on the south wall by extending the hallway by the bedrooms.

6. Can someone give me an idea of the kind of costs I might expect to have someone come in and evaluate the space and add appropriate acoustic treatments? I realize it is impossible to predict accurately but I'm hoping someone can give me a range of costs so I can have an idea.

7. Soundproofing - There is no upstairs. The adjacent room will most likely not be slept in often. My son is 19 and will leave home someday (soon I hope). The lot line is 6 feet from the theater wall. The furnace will be over the garage. Any suggestions or specific threads I should read?


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## rickp (Jan 14, 2008)

My .02$,

Make sure you leave 2 1/2' from the corner you want to put you door near for a corner bass trap. I found out personally about this tip the hard way.:rant:


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

owlfan12000 said:


> Some questions:
> 1. What size should I make the room? As shown the room is 16' 0" x 18' 8" but that includes some exterior walls so the interior dimensions are as much as a foot less. If I move the equipment closet to the south wall of the room I can expand the 16' 0" to 18' 6" without much trouble. The other dimension is pretty flexible. I've been trying to meet the best or second best room sizes shown on this web site http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/room_sizing/?content=best and in this spreadsheet http://www.whealy.com/acoustics/Control Room Calculator V2.63 XL2007.zip. Unfortunately I'm running into a bit of analysis paralysis considering all of the variables.


Firstly, the width of the room is fine, but a bit longer would be preferable if possible..
The next thing is..Do you need that single door on the west wall?..I'll explain about that a bit later.. 



> 2. Should I have an equipment closet or would some sort of an equipment rack be better for ventilation?


A built in equipment closet looks better IMO, and doesn't take up any space in the room


> 3. If I move the equipment closet to the south wall I might be able to combine it with the walk in closet of the adjacent room so I have a rectangular space or I might just have an extra rectangle in one corner. The extra rectangle might be easier. Would that make the acoustics significantly more complicated?


That position would work well ..and it looks like you have rear access from the office area..
It won't be a problem acoustically, except you won't be able to have a bass trap in that corner..



> 4. I could have a ceiling of up to 10 ft by having a raised area in the center of the room (I'm not sure what this is called). I assume that would only complicate the acoustics. Correct?


I think you're referring to a vaulted ceiling..That height would be fine and no..it would only help to improve acoustics!



> 5. Any thoughts on the where the door should be relative to the screen? If I have the screen on the south wall it would be easier to add a riser in the north end of the room and still keep the front row wheel chair accessible. That would put the door near the screen. Right now it is on the west wall but I could also move some things around and have it enter on the south wall by extending the hallway by the bedrooms.


My suggestion would be to have the screen on the North wall..to keep things symmetrical..
Hence my reason for removing the single door on the west wall..

I would also remove the current equipment closet, and make that a solid wall..
That then places the equipment closet at the rear of the room.. That way there won't be any distractions from the equipment..



> 6. Can someone give me an idea of the kind of costs I might expect to have someone come in and evaluate the space and add appropriate acoustic treatments? I realize it is impossible to predict accurately but I'm hoping someone can give me a range of costs so I can have an idea.


Sorry..can't help you with that..Someone else may be able to..


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

owlfan12000 said:


> Some questions:
> 1. What size should I make the room? As shown the room is 16' 0" x 18' 8" but that includes some exterior walls so the interior dimensions are as much as a foot less. If I move the equipment closet to the south wall of the room I can expand the 16' 0" to 18' 6" without much trouble. The other dimension is pretty flexible. I've been trying to meet the best or second best room sizes shown on this web site http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/room_sizing/?content=best and in this spreadsheet http://www.whealy.com/acoustics/Control Room Calculator V2.63 XL2007.zip. Unfortunately I'm running into a bit of analysis paralysis considering all of the variables.


If you have controll from the start the dimensions you go with are super important. I've found Bob Gold's room calculator is pretty nice to play around with. http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm. You basically want all dark green. 18x16 is good as long as your ceiling height is not 8 or 9 feet. 10 foot ceiling would be better with those dimensions. You want to avoid room dimensions that are multiples of another (ie: 18' length and 9' height or 16' width and 8' height). Even then with an 8' ceiling it's not terribly bad.


owlfan12000 said:


> 2. Should I have an equipment closet or would some sort of an equipment rack be better for ventilation?


A built in rack has a great look to it. Problem is having it accessible at the back. You have yours backing on to a fireplace also which might bleed a bit of heat into the closet unless you insulate the wall well.


owlfan12000 said:


> 3. If I move the equipment closet to the south wall I might be able to combine it with the walk in closet of the adjacent room so I have a rectangular space or I might just have an extra rectangle in one corner. The extra rectangle might be easier. Would that make the acoustics significantly more complicated?


It might if it makes the width and length equal at that point.


owlfan12000 said:


> 4. I could have a ceiling of up to 10 ft by having a raised area in the center of the room (I'm not sure what this is called). I assume that would only complicate the acoustics. Correct?


Vaulted ceiling are good because it's a non parallel surface.


owlfan12000 said:


> 5. Any thoughts on the where the door should be relative to the screen? If I have the screen on the south wall it would be easier to add a riser in the north end of the room and still keep the front row wheel chair accessible. That would put the door near the screen. Right now it is on the west wall but I could also move some things around and have it enter on the south wall by extending the hallway by the bedrooms.


South wallscreen might be better for surround speaker placement. North wall placement might be better for front speaker acoustics because of the way the room juts out near the entrance.


owlfan12000 said:


> 6. Can someone give me an idea of the kind of costs I might expect to have someone come in and evaluate the space and add appropriate acoustic treatments? I realize it is impossible to predict accurately but I'm hoping someone can give me a range of costs so I can have an idea.


You'd have to shop around in your area to get an exact price. It wouldn't be cheap most likely and store bought acoustics can get expensive. $5000 might be a ballpark figure including treatments. With the experts here at the Shack you might be able to whittle it down to quite a bit.

Do you have speakers and equipment already?


owlfan12000 said:


> 7. Soundproofing - There is no upstairs. The adjacent room will most likely not be slept in often. My son is 19 and will leave home someday (soon I hope). The lot line is 6 feet from the theater wall. The furnace will be over the garage. Any suggestions or specific threads I should read?


Soundproofing also keeps the sound out of your theater room. People being noisy in the kitchen or someone cutting their lawn can ruin the suspense in a good movie. You also don't have to worry about turning it down at night when your wife is sleeping.

You really only have two walls plus the ceiling as the other two are exterior and should have a lot of insulation in them. Since it's your theater room you would also want to avoid big windows or windows at all. Windows aren't as soundproof as brick veneer walls and light is a big issue if you go with a projector.

The entrance door will be a weak point if you go with french style double doors. A single heavy 36" door will still be wheelchair accessible. Seal up the door with a gasket and it will no longer be a problem. 

The ceiling needs to be done if you plan on doing the walls because it's a flanking point for sound to get through the rest of the house. I'm sure you'll have a stack of insulation up there, but that won't stop the bass from leaving the room. 

Just using double ⅝ drywall and staggered stud walls (or double walls) will do wonders and not be horrendously expensive. Add greenglue to the mix and you've got a pro theater in the works.

Check out this section some more and the room acoustics section for more info. Do a search in this site for soundproofing and you'll get a horde of information.


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## owlfan12000 (Jul 2, 2007)

FYI, I have no theater equipment (projectors, speakers, receivers, etc.) at this point.

Based on these comments, some comments on some other threads and some further thoughts of my own I'm going to try for the following:
1. 10' vaulted ceiling
2. Remove the door to the patio
3. Replace the double door with a sold wood door
4. Moving the equipment closet to the south wall, rearrange the office and perhaps the hall so there is a back door to the media closet. 

I'm still struggling with room size so I thought I would take this approach.
1. Decide on the seating to get the minimum dimensions.
2. Add spacing between rows to get appropriate legroom.
3. Add 30" side aisles to get minimum room width.
4. Add some space to the back to improve the surround sound.
5. Use this calculator, http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html, to determine the screen size and appropriate viewing distance.
6. Take the results from steps 1-5 and make adjustments to the overall size to come as close as possible to the best room ratios from this page - http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/room_sizing/?content=best. Review those dimensions with the bob gold calculator Matrix Dweller has suggested.
7. Determine the wall design and ceiling soundproofing requirements to determine the external room dimensions. 
8. See how much it is going to cost me to add the square footage and start making adjustments as needed. 

Assuming that approach is sound I still have some questions.
1. Most of the Berkline seats can be within a few inches of the wall but I've read on here that having the back row on the wall doesn't allow for good surround sound for that back row. Any thoughts on what the minimum distance should be from that wall?
2. I've seen the THX and SMPTE guidelines for viewing angle. Any ideas on how to translate those angles to my preferred seating location in a theater?
3. Does a 30" side aisle allow enough width for good speaker placement?
4. Matrix Dweller - I took a preliminary stab at this approach and came up with an optimum room size of 10' x 15.1' x 21.4' from the Salford University spreadsheet. I assume that most of the results I would get from the Salford University site would be pretty good. I plugged that in to the Bob Gold Room Mode calculator. Unfortunately I lack a reference for what is good enough or perhaps what results would be bad enough to force a change. All of the results are dark green except for the ones in this picture:

Can you give me some idea what the practical implications of these results are?
5. Does anyone know of a thread in the section with similar seating requirements - 2 rows of 6 seats?


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## SierraMikeBravo (Jul 1, 2007)

Owlfan,

I am not sure how many seats you are placing in the theater, but here is the best rule of thumb, don't place any near or along boundaries. Don't try and fit 10 lbs. into a 5lb. box. Regarding the width of the room...that all depends on how many seats you want to place in the room. Determine your requiments, then work from there.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

owlfan12000 said:


> FYI, I have no theater equipment (projectors, speakers, receivers, etc.) at this point.
> 
> Based on these comments, some comments on some other threads and some further thoughts of my own I'm going to try for the following:
> 1. 10' vaulted ceiling
> ...


All sounds good



> Assuming that approach is sound I still have some questions.
> 1. Most of the Berkline seats can be within a few inches of the wall but I've read on here that having the back row on the wall doesn't allow for good surround sound for that back row. Any thoughts on what the minimum distance should be from that wall?


You need to keep the back row at least 2'6" away from the back wall


> 2. I've seen the THX and SMPTE guidelines for viewing angle. Any ideas on how to translate those angles to my preferred seating location in a theater?


With two rows of seating the surround speaker positioning will be a compromise between the two rows, unless you intend to set up mainly for the front row..In which case the surrounds should be positioned just slightly behind you and about 6' above floor level..


> 3. Does a 30" side aisle allow enough width for good speaker placement?


Generally speaking..the more space you can have between the side surrounds and the outside chairs, the better..
If it's possible to make it more than 30", then I would..But if you're not going to have your outside seats filled regularly, then 30" will be fine..


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## owlfan12000 (Jul 2, 2007)

I've got a new wrinkle to my plan. One of the builders has offered to take my home in trade for a home he has already built. This has some potentially significant advantages but the theater room would no longer be dedicated so I have some questions about some issues I may face with that room. 

1. It would be on a second story so I would have to worry about sound transmission downstairs.
2. The room is irregular so the acoustic issues would be more complicated. 

The room is probably 16 x 18 but it also has and extra space on one end that is maybe 5 x 3 with a window seat.
 
The ceiling slopes upward along the roof line from about 8 feet to 11 or 12 feet and then back down.
3. There is a furnace in a closet right next to the room. The return air vent is in the room itself.

I'm interested in suggestions on how to handle the furnace noise, the sound transmission downstairs and light penetration through the window.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

owlfan12000 said:


> 1. It would be on a second story so I would have to worry about sound transmission downstairs.


If it's already built then that would make things a lot harder. If it's carpeted you could take it up and insulate from the floor down by taking up the OSB or Plywood so long as they weren't glued. If they were glued you could blow insulation in trough small holes. If it has real hardwood flooring forget it. Laminate, carpet or engineered hardwood all float on top of the floor where as real hardwood would be nailed in place.


> 2. The room is irregular so the acoustic issues would be more complicated.


While not ideal some irregularities can actually be good for acoustics. It can just hamper speaker placement and the speaker-boundary effects on certain speakers.


> [*]The room is probably 16 x 18 but it also has and extra space on one end that is maybe 5 x 3 with a window seat.
> [*]The ceiling slopes upward along the roof line from about 8 feet to 11 or 12 feet and then back down.


I have a room just like that above my garage with a big palladium window and a vaulted ceiling. The light is the killer and effective window treatments are hard to find for circular windows. It's a beautiful room though, but just not good for HT with a projector because of the huge south facing windows. With proper light control the deminsions would have been perfect. If you are using a LCD or Plasma screen then your room might be perfect as long at light doesn't shine right on your screen or you have good window treatments.


> 3. There is a furnace in a closet right next to the room. The return air vent is in the room itself.


Mine is like that too. Ideally you would want to make some sort of baffle but careful not to restrict the airflow or the room could be uncomfortable. You could insulate the interior of the furnace room put up ⅝ drywall and a solid door with a gasket. Of course be careful sealing up the furnace room if the furnace or water heater, if present, use house air for combustion (carbon monoxide). Heat could also be an issue. That could be solved by installing a vent through the roof or side wall.


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## owlfan12000 (Jul 2, 2007)

MatrixDweller said:


> I have a room just like that above my garage with a big palladium window and a vaulted ceiling. The light is the killer and effective window treatments are hard to find for circular windows. It's a beautiful room though, but just not good for HT with a projector because of the huge south facin


I just googled window treatments darkness and found this link, http://betterdaysleep.com/. You might take a look. It looks like they might be able to make a custom job to work with your window.


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