# Time for Vinyl... need a turntable on a budget. Advice?



## NoDestiny (Oct 28, 2009)

I'm sure this has been asked to death. I read some through some of the pages on here and felt I should ask, just to make sure I get the right one.

Situation: I upgraded my 32" 720p TV to a 55" 1080p and figured, while I'm at it, time for some audio upgrades! I built full tower Natalie-P MTMs that have an excellent sound and play down to upper 20's and up beyond 20K without issue. I am building a hifimediy tripath amp to drive them. Now that I have a pretty good setup for listening to music, I realize I don't have a very large CD collection. Research points me to feeling I need to try vinyl.

Needs: My amp will take a pair of RCA cables. I have done a little research on phono preamping, etc. I think I want a player with one built in, unless somebody can talk me otherwise. One major requirement is it has to be simple to upgrade this device. I don't want a record player that has hard to find and replace parts. I like upgrading things in the long run, so something that can be had for a good price and, with several long term investments, can be a very good player.

Budget: I want to stay around $200. I'm willing to spend more if it is absolutely worth it. I don't mind ending up spending more in the long run, as my recent upgrades to my living room has already gotten me low enough. Much easier to squeeze out a few hundred here and there rather than a large sum now. Plus, I like project work 

Thanx for the help gang. If somebody has a good article or thread with similar questions/results to my own, I'd love a link!


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

I think that the Music Hall USB-1 is right up your alley. List is $249, it has a built-in phone preamp (99% sure of this) and gets good/excellent reviews. I know that it's sold directly from Music Hall:

www.musichallaudio.com
(516) 487-3663
There are some other retailers that carry it, too. I hope that this helps!!


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

BTW-Stereophile reviewed the USB-1 in the May 2011 issue. The reviewer concluded that it's not (quite) as good as a Rega P1.

The Music Hall USB-1 also comes with a cartridge (AT3600L moving magnet). From all indications, this would be a great place to start. I'm considering buying one; the fact that it already has a phone stage built-in is a big plus for me. I'll probably upgrade to a Rega later (I had a P2 a while back and loved it), but money is tight right now, and this seems to be a GREAT unit for the money.

Good Luck!!


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

+1 on the Music Hall. Not only is the built in phono pre nice to have, you can archive albums to your computer via USB.

Not sure how easily you can upgrade the phono pre, but a quick call to Roy Hall might answer that question.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

I can't agree that the Music Hall USB turntable would be a good choice. The OP doesn't need the USB, the phono preamp in that unit is marginal at best, and the turntable certainly doesn't meet the desire for something that is upgradable.

Spend the extra money and get a decent entry level audiophile turntable and a decent entry level phono preamp. The new Pro-Ject Debut Carbon and a TCC TC-750 phono preamp would be sure to satisfy. The Music Hall MMF-2.2 would be even better and represents a unit which can be taken quite a bit higher with some upgrades.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Spending more would certainly up the quality.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Also, there are plenty of good used 'tables. That would get you the most for your money, NoDestiny


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

I agree with jackfish and tesseract. Get a decent TT and phono stage. If on a serious budget go the used route. USB TT's tend to have lower performance levels especially the built in phono preamp.


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

I _thought_ that you could bypass the built-in preamp in the USB-1? Not sure of that, but it would make a difference. If you want to go the upgrade route, look for a used Rega P1 or P2. Just my 2¢...

HOWEVER. I haven't had much luck finding a quality used t-table at a good price. Perhaps I've been looking in the wrong place?


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## NoDestiny (Oct 28, 2009)

Thanks for the input, folks. I guess where I'm at at this point is this:

Is it worth buying a $200-250 player and put upgrades into it later down the line, or am I just not going to get the quality in the end without dropping the ~$450 for something like the MusicHall mmf2.2?


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

There are some t-tables (Rega for instance) that enable you to buy a basic unit and upgrade things like the motor/power supply, platter and arm as you go. You end-up with the same/better quality than if you just bought the higher end unit. Some are factory upgrades, but aftermarket upgrades also exist for many brands.

I mention Rega as that's the brand that I owned, but I'm sure there are many others.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

Save your money and spring for the better TT. You won't regret it. Were I buying I'd be looking at the Music Hall 2.2 or better. All the reviews I've been reading say that lower priced Rega's have speed problems. The ProJect TT's also deserve a look.


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## NoDestiny (Oct 28, 2009)

It's tough to be cheap, yet have expensive tastes. I guess patience is required here... I'm eyeballing the mmk2.2 and a TCC TC-750. Definitely a lot more than I wanted to spend... but I'll take your guy's word on it that I won't regret it.

Are there any decent upgrade paths for this TT? Not that I want to envision myself going more broke at this very moment...  But it's good to know in case I get the itch. Seems to be a trend for me.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

NoDestiny said:


> Are there any decent upgrade paths for this TT?


Since you asked...

An acrylic platter for the Music Hall MMF-2.2 (Pro-Ject Acryl-It) and a Pro-Ject Speed Box are two table upgrades definitely worth the money. Then there is replacing the cartridge...which could be a whole separate discussion of the possibilities.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

Let the man get a TT first. There will always be time for upgrades. I would upgrade the cartridge first.


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

"It's tough to be cheap, yet have expensive tastes..."

I know what you mean!! 

I'm not sure about the upgrades for these tables; most T-tables can be upgraded with a better platter, tone arm and (very important) cartridge. Some even have outboard power supplies as a upgrade.

I would agree that the best move would be to get the T-table first and consider the upgrades later. You may find that you're happy with it "as is."


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## NoDestiny (Oct 28, 2009)

I definitely don't have any plans to "jump the gun" on upgrades... just wanted to insure the path is available should the time come


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

It's very easy for a TT to be a delight for anyone interested in upgrading and tweaking. To what has already been mentioned I'll add, new plinth/bass, new feet and damping.


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## NoDestiny (Oct 28, 2009)

Is the TCC TC-750 phono preamp just the one to get for a $50 preamp? Is it a bottleneck in the future in my upgrade path, or should be a pretty good choice for whatever I end up doing? (for the musichall mmf-2.2 that is)


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

My one biggest comment of that particular preamp is that you'll have to change preamps if you change from a mm cartridge. Also, the impedance is fixed at 47K ohms. I'd make sure that it matches the recommended impedance of the cartridge on the t-table that you purchase. It also uses a "wall wart" power supply.

One the plus side, it *is* inexpensive, AND you can always upgrade (change) phono preamps later. Just my 2¢. I can not claim to be familiar with this specific model (I did look at the link you provided). Maybe someone one this site has heard one and can offer more input...? Good luck!


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

I have a Technolink TC-772 which I got to rip vinyl to digital files. The phono preamp and A/D converter do a pretty good job for 16 bit, 48 KHz wav files.

If I were going that route I'd go with the TC-760LC over the TC-750. Or a Rek-O-Kut Professional Phono Preamp MKII is about as good as it gets for $70.


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## Muser (Apr 16, 2011)

NoDestiny

There are a number of exceptional tables out there on the used market that can allow you to start well up the chain at prices lower than some of the "new" offerings. In particular, consider the AR turntbables, the XA in particular - they can be had for less than $200 on audiogon.com, with an arm. There's one right now with an arm for $115! For perhaps a little less you might find an older Dual table - stick with the totally manual versions, you'll get better parts that perform with more precision. Some of the older Denon turntables are well regarded and due to their age can be had for good prices, but more than the AR and Dual tables, though I doubt they're actually better, just heavier. For what Music Hall (they're still nice tables) wants for their tables, you can get a much better used SOTA turntable, if you're patient and wait to find one. 

Also, "Upgrades" in the analog world aren't necessarily from the same manufacturer or in a direction you might think you'd need to go. Upgrading in the 60s, 70s and 80s often meant a hobbyist fiddling with his table stumbled on an upgrade for himself and then created an industry!

So an upgrade might be like a newer arm from a different manufacturer. A heavier counterbalance weight that sits lower on the arm and so provides more tracking stability. It might look like adding additional damping to the plinth. It's amazing what something simple like damping can do for surface noise, hardly the sort of result you'd think but part of what comes with the sound of the better tables.
Of course, you can upgrade cartridges, but you can get really nice sound from Grado's near entry level cartridges, like around $60. I bought my sister a Grado Labs prestige "black" and it was amazingly good for nearly nothing. More money might buy better sound. Don't feel you need to end up with a moving coil cartridge. I have an MC, but that doesn't mean that there aren't nice moving magnet (MM) cartridges, too.

Because analog has been around so long, there is a wealth of great used gear out there for really good prices. I've owned five or six high end turntables, each getting a little more frightening in cost, but I know the upgrades were worth it. I have had a chance to review another half dozen turntables and know you can get quite satisfying performance on the used market with flavor of the month causing people to sell good tables for pennies on the dollar, many for the cost of a new Music Hall table, and the MH tables aren't bad, either, you can just do a little better for the same price.

And, the phono section makes a big difference, too. Don't buy an all-in-one table/phono stage. You'll be saddled with performance that likely can't be upgraded. I understand that the Bellari phono stage is a nice one, and for under $100 you're clearly better than the built in USB tables.

Sorry, my cup ran over!:R

Good luck.
Larry


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