# A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step



## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

I finally have a chance to set up a HT system in my den. 

It is a rather modest begining, and I am starting by setting up a stereo system and addressing room acoustics first.

The roomis aproximately 14'3" by 23' 6" wih a standare 8' ceiling, except that there is an air conditioning plenum measuring 23.5" X 12" along one eciling wall.

My current system consists of :

Klipsch Heresey (1977) Speakers
Philips 951 A/V Surround receiver
Pioneer CT-S609R Cassett deck
SL-1200 Turntable
DH-200 Amplifiers (2)
PPSL (Push Pull Slot Loaded) Sub with SA100 Plate Amp (unfinished, needs to be tuned)
Mini Fonke FF125WK speakers for surround when needed.
Linux based Video Server

I have started adjusting speaker and couch positions and am starting to get the basics of a sound stage.

Roomacoustics are abisimal with a brick wall on the far end, cinderblock left wall with paneling on the left, and undampened paneling onthe right and rear.

I ahve my couch set with my ears about 9' fromteh rear wall.

The speakers are 6' from teh brick wall.

Once I am satisfied with speaker and couch position, I'll start with room treatement.

I have a case (6) of Rockwool 60 24" X 48" X 2" sheets to make panels with, but am thinking a pair of tube traps in the far conrers might be a better starting point.

Suggestions ar welcome as I am just begining my trek and am still quite confused over all teh terminologuy, etc.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Today I finally sealed up and tested my Sub along with the rest of my system.

I moved the sub around to a couple locations (based on mathmatical anlayisis of room location) and looked at how it changed the room response.

The graph is the final position, without any room treatement.

I watched Pearl Harbor tonight and it sounded pretty good, especially compared to previous sessions without the sub.

My question is how does the graph look? 

Since I have no experience with REW up until now, I'm not sure what I should be seeing.

Thanks.

Steven


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Great that you have your own room. I too started with a room that was paneled as well. I ended up getting a
friend that was a commercial painter to caulk grooves and paint which gives a solid look to the wall. I made diy acoustic panes as well as a few purchased from ATS acoustics and first and second reflection points.

You've got a great room to start with. Just be patient and don't rush it.

...
MP


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

I've been reading Art Noxon's AES papers and his five part home theater articles. 

It makes sense to me that placing the sub at a location that will not excite room resonances, and with the HF cross over is low enough so that harmonics won't excite resonances above the third harmonic.

That is why I ended up with the sub behind the right main speaker.

For now I'm trying to optomize the listening position with respect to the location of the main stereo speakers and sub.

Once I have that, I think I can go ahead with room treatement (1) tricorner bass trap and (2) primary speaker reflection absorption, and possibly (3) difusion panels.

That is probably the best I can hope for for now.

I'm running REW with a Radio Shack digital Sound Level Meter for microphone input.

The biggest question I have is "does the plot look reasonable for the positioning of the speakers? And, Is this a good enough starting point to think about room treatement? Or, do I need to do more with speaker and sub placement WRT couch?

This will never be a nice HT like I've seen some pix of, but I hope to improve it enough to make it an enjoyable room to relax in.

WAF is not an issue as I am single.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

TheGimp said:


> WAF is not an issue as I am single.


I beg to differ. I see somebody in a blue jacket on the couch. You
made need to go over everything with your roommate.

...
MP


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

A-ha, my "Little Buddy". As long as it passes the sniff test I'm ok.

Bad setback tonight.

I was rearanging the room next to the den and found major water damage so I'm going to have to put the HT room on hold.

Ultimately I would like to set up a 65" curved 4K screen with a new receiver ( possiblyOnkyo TX NR636 or Sony 
STR DN1050. 

Not exactly High End, but a nice basic system.

I really have no need for a projection system since I expect to sell this house in about 5 years, although they really look nice. I would just like to have a good basic system to enjoy SF and action movies as well as a good stereo system.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Oh man that hurts! Sorry to hear that. Hopefully it's not too bad. I live in an older house and I've run into that particular one before. Ended up costing me abo6 $3500 in repairs and fixes.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks.

The rug seems to be drying out after 24hrs, so I dont' think there is too much seepage. It looks like the book cases were restricting air flow and allowing the accumulation of moisture.

Still, I'll probably have to french tile a drain system to keep the water away from the wall. I can probablystrip the paneling and redo the firring strips, but leave it exposed until I can do the french tile work this spirng or summer.

I managed to cut the frame for one bass absorption panel toinght. I stained it and left it to dry. I need to figure out a stand for it before assembly.

I was looking at receiver specifications today and figure I'll have to upscale a little, probably an Onkyo TX-NR737 or similar. I was dissapointed with the comparison of SONY A/V recievers. Too many field s filled with N/A (Data not available?).

In additon to my watching, I have two grandkids who I'm sure will want to watch kids movies and I'd like to have something special for them since I don't see them but twice a year. 

They are supposed to be here for 4th of July, but I now doubt I'll be able to have anything finished by then.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Great start to the room. It sounds like you're on the right track with your research, too. Every time I start to research acoustics, it opens up a rabbit hole and I seem to get lost for a while. Then I get out and promptly forget 80% of what I learned!


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Yes, it certainly is a rabbit hole.

I was looking at the Dennon receivers, but those in my price range (less than $1000) don't have sufficient audio inputs, and no Phono input.(AVR-X3100W for instance) I would have to use a separate Phono Preamp and feed it in one of the standard audio inputs. This isn't so bad since I'll be building a moving coil preamp any way, but for now while running a MM cartridge I have no preamp.

The Onkyo TX-NR737 looks about right, but the TX-NR838 has some nice features as well. Feature Creep can be a real issue.

Based on the layout of the house and location of the AV equipment, I don't think the multi zone (room) features will be helpful. I will use my old receivers in other rooms for audio only.

The 737 and 838 both have MM phono pre inputs as well as 6 additional audio inputs. I have Cassett, CD, Phono, reel to reel as well as my old VHS inputs which only support separate vidion not HDMI.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

I spent several hours today looking at AV Consoles on line and locally.

I'm very dissapointed at what is available. Every SONAX or SANUS console I would like is no longer available. :scratch:

It looks like I will have to buy a couple of sheets of 3/4" Oak vaneer plywood and build a stand to satisfy myself. So a lot of effort before I can continue.

On the brighter side, I will save $300-$500 by building the console myself and I can use the savings to upgrade to a TX-NR838 over the 737. :R


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

I've been working on some frames for bass traps.

I have six sheets fo Rockwool60 (24" X 48" x 2") and figure I can do two for the side walls, two bass traps for the corners and two for the celing.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Look, building your own you are guaranteed to have a solution that works.

I built mine and she is a beast and perfect. 

Plus, I got to play with power tools as well as buy a few new ones.

...
MP


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

After looking closer at the dimensions of some of the consoles, I've come to the conclusion that custom construction is the only way to go. It might not look quite as professional, but it will be more functional. In particular, I'm concerned with heat dissipation. I can design in features to help that are not available in commercial units (at least what I can afford).

The Onkyo AV Receivers seem to have a hotspot in the top middle of the housing, and I've seen posts that the fans don't seem to come on often. Some people have speculated that this is related to HDMI switch failures in previous models. I've not found indications the latest TX-NR series suffer the same issues of HDMI switch failures. 

That said, heat management is paramount for electronics life in general. 


I recently picked up a Craftsman table saw with cast iron deck to replace the Porter Cable that has a warped aluminum deck. I'll be aligning the saw soon and hope to give it a workout on this project.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Well, I pulled the trigger on the Onkyo TX-NR838. The more I read about other products the more I felt the Onkyo was a best match for my requirements.

I was a little concerned about the HDMI Switch history of the Onkyo products, but came to the conclusion it is heat related and I'll just have to be sure to manage that in my console design.

I've not seen any follow-up from the few buyers who purchased one, so I guess I'll do a write up after I have had it a few weeks.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey Gimp. My 808 had a board put in it and hasn't flinched since. That was over a year ago. My console is open, front and back and I don't feel the majority of failures was heat related(not sure though). I believe Onkyo has a plan to fix them for a few more years. Mine was past warranty. Thought I'd share.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks willis7469

What did it cost for the repare, or did Onkyo repare it out of warranty?

My biggest fear is damage in shipment. I purchased through an Ebay seller who does not accept returns. So, I have to deal with Ebay's policies if it is damaged.

Second risk is OBF in which case I have to send it to Onkyo for repare.

I don't have a 4K TV so I can only test so much when I get it. My current TV is only a Sony Bravo 32". I hope to purchase a 65" Curved screen 4K TV around May and be fully set up when my kids come to visit around the 4th of July.

I guess I better start assembling my surround speakers. I cut the plywood last December while I ws on vacation and never assembled them because I realized the table saw I was using had a warped deck and the cuts weren't proper. I'll have to do with them for now.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

The wood on the saw horses in the forground is trim molding for the bathroom that I'm remodeling. 

The background slats on the cardboard box are 1X4 pine for acoustic absoprtion panel frames.

If I can get the trim molding done with the second coat of paint and cut two more frames toinght I'll be happy.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

They actually fixed it out of warranty. My friend lives in the twin cities area, and brought it to an authorized onkyo shop. "Zero" investment. Good thing too, the original ship tag said 48lbs!!! I did have to sacrifice a few of George Killian's finest to my friend however. I'd be nervous about eBay a little too, but they're pretty good about things like that. The hardest part is waiting!


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Fantastic. Good to hear the company stands behing their products. I've never owned Onkyo until now. I have been primarly Sony and Panasonic oriented.

Trim molding painted, Acostic Panel frames cut.

Tomorrow I'll buy another four 1" X 4" X 8' pine boards for the last two panels.

I should be able to nail the trim in place tomorrow night, stain the two frames I cut tonight and cut the last two frames and stain them for assembly on Wednesday.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yeah, I was surprised to see them cover as many as they have. Warm and fuzzy...
Looking forward to your panels. Good progress so far.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

I switched over to Onkyo after years of being a loyal Yamaha fan. Great product. The only I would preface is that my Onkyo tends to run hot. Even with the 5 major channels off loaded to a separate amp. It gets much hotter than my xpa5.

I put a usb powered laptop cooler over the vents to help draw air through it faster.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

I plan on having some active thermal management in my console, probably cpu fans or possibly a discharge fan in the back with a plenum. I'll wait to get the Onkyo in before I finish the design and start cutting wood.

This may also give an incentive to build another tube amp to offload some dissipation.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Change in priorities.

I stained the second set of frame sections, and nailed the trim molding in the bathroom.

The TX-NR838 arrived in only three days! It was out for delivery yesterday, but I was at work, and for some dumb reason they will not hold it at the FedEx facility for me to go by after work and pick it up. So, I had to take the day off today to wait at home for delivery. It arrived at 12:20pm. If I had taken a half day I might have missed it.

Nice looking receiver.

Any way, I've got the receiver, but not enough speakers to hook up. So I need to finish three more speakers. I previously cut the plywood, but the Porter Cable table saw I was using has a warped deck. I need to recut the panels to square them up before assembly. 

I bought a used Sears Craftsman 10" table saw recently, but I need to allgin it before using it.

So, now I will:

1. Allgin the table saw
2. recut the speaker panels
3. assemble speakers
4. purchase two 4 X 8 foot sheets of 3/4" Oak finish plywood
5. Cut the plywood 
6. assemble the plywood into a console to hold the A/V Receiver, DVD player, etc and support the TV.

Then I can bet back to the acoustic panels. 

I'm still working on the water damage in the downstairs room, and finishing the bathroom.

Nothing like juggling a few projects at the same time.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

I managed to accomplish 1 thought 4.

I spent some time on the downstairs walls, and decided I will probably just strip all of the panels on the outside (Block underground) walls, let it dry for a couple of months, then seal it and repanel the entire room.

Here is a shot of the corner with two panels removed.

Second pix is one speaker under clamps compared to a finished speaker.

Last shot is the three under construction.

I have the speakers partially assembled and first coat of black stain applied.

I just need to finish the speaker back support/brace and I can assemble them.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

A little progress tonight. Stiffners added to speaker cabinets and the third and fourth frame assembled.

I need to go to Lowes and pick up the wood for thelast two frames still.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Ack!16 I've always ordered drivers in pairs.

I am building enough cabinets to include a center speaker, but when I logged onto Madisound to order a single FF125WK, I found they are on back order.

I called to check on them and the contact was very friendly and after a few minutes confirmed they were due in, but it might be several weeks before they were in stock.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

So many projects and so little time. 

I finally got around to cutting plywood for the console. But I ran out of daylight before I could make the dado cuts. It looks like wet weather till this weekend and I do my woodworking outside in the driveway, so the dado cuts are on hold for a while.

Sorry about the poor image quality, the photo was shot with my cellphone.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Don't worry you ll get there before you know it.

Rest easy that you are an inspiration to me at least.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

I did a little dado work today. 

Here is the first mock-up of the console.

I finished assembly, staining and putting one coat of Polyurethane on the frames for the absorption panels.

I need to work on the fabric next.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Here is the pedistal being assembled. It will be stained black, and set back 6" from the front bottom edge. There will be four round pilars in the front as false supports. The majority of the weight will be supported by the pedistal.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Been a busy young feller! Nice work.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

I've stained all the panels and given them two coats of Polyeurothane. I wanted to do laquer, but it was re-disolving the stain so I figured I'd better just go with Poly.

The top has warped and pulls away from the vertical right side, so I'll have to use lots of clamps for final assembly.

I will use iron on 3/4" veneer over the ends, stain and poly them after assembly.

I gave up doing anything necessary this weekend just to get this done.

It feels so good to be this close, but I have to watch out for "Get-Home-Itus".

My father was a pilot in WW II and Korea. He told me that the last part of a flight was the most dangerous because one started anticipating getting home, and could be destracted from paying attentionto things that matter, hence "Get-Home-Itus".


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Here is another shot with a Sony Bravia 32" (my only flat screen at this time) for comparison.

Flight of the Phoenix with Jimmy Stewart and Ernest Borgnine. A great movie. I'm goning to have a beer, watch the movie, take a shower and go to bed.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

I ran short of veneer for the edges. However it looks pretty good on the front edges. I need to sand the excess off and stain it.

I used Birch Iron on veneer strip and an Iron made for Model Air-plane "Monocote" application.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Final stain and poly. 

Starting to assemble the electronics.

There is still a lot of clutter due to the mess in the other room.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Looks really good, gimp. I think it blends into the room nicely. I still love that great brick backdrop you have, it would be awesome to put some subtle backlighting on that!


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

I'll have to think about the back lighting. Good suggestion.

I managed to finish the surround speakers. I guess I need to build pedestals to set them at ear height next.

I've been distracted with painting the master bedroom and fitting trim moulding. Between working on the house and garden, with yard work coming on, I'll be slow in progressing.


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## mpednault (Dec 20, 2012)

Nice work! I love seeing DIY furniture pieces. As for the surround stands, you may want to think about building them so they place the speakers 2-3' above ear height for proper effect. Not sure what the rest of your audio setup is like but that's usually the preferred placement for rear surrounds.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yep. Everything mpednault said. Keep gimpin along! Lookin good.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks,

It looks like stands would be too unstable at that height.

I'll have to look and see what I can do in the way of small shelves for the speakers. I hate to put any holes in the paneling, but that may be the only reasonable way to do it.

I plan on building bases for the Heresey speakers once I am sure of the height and tilt.

The audio system will consist of the two Heresey front speakers which will also be used for music, the small center speaker as the center, two of the just finished speakers for each side surrounds, two additional for the rear speakers, and a sub which is behind the right Heresey. 

I don't plan on any overhead speakers in this house. Maybe in the next one. I expect to be here for 3 to 5 years before I move.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Tonight after dinner and the news I had a brandy and decided to write off the evening. No work tonight. just relax.

I switched the receiver over to the stereo on the local rock and roll station and listened to "The Wall" by Pink Floyd.

I don't think FM has ever sounded so good.

Using the RS spl meter I show I'm listening at about 65dB C weighted Slow response.


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## mpednault (Dec 20, 2012)

I do that with headphones occasionally. I can't wait to be able to do that in my HT. Glad to see you too are a Klipsch owner. Eventually I'll be picking up some vintage Klipsch as well.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I love "The Wall". I've also been known to listen to the whole thing straight through. I'm one of few that I know, that when given the chance, will sit and listen to an album. No skipping tracks, warts and all, just take the whole thing in. Sometimes ill go though the same one 3 times. I'm trying to get my 12 year old son into this line of thinking, and to get the album concept. Sometimes he does. Sometimes he gets mad when he runs out of skips on pandora...


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

I never got into playing "songs", I guess because I never collected single 45s.

I've always played albums, particularly The Moody Blues, Pink Floyd and the likes. To me playing just one or two songs off an album would be like opening a book and reading only one or two chapters, then picking up another book.

On the subject of surround speakers, THX says they should be 2-3' above the listener, but it does not say if they should be angled down.

Should I have them angled, or straight?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

My opinion is they should be angled down. Not sure about THX but it seems that's what they say too. I would recommend mounts that articulate so you can aim the speakers for the best potential in your room. I've tried every angle my mounts allow just to know for sure.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Slightly OT.

HT room has been on hold while I have been painting upstairs. 

My kids and grandkids are supposed to come in for the week prior to the 4th of July and I'm fixing up the house in preparation. It needed painting any way and this is a good time.

Painting includes striping off the trim molding/base board and refinishing them. The previous owner had sealed the baseboard to the wall with what looks like silicon cement. I'm removing all of it, filling in years of holes and painting.

Last night I put the last coat on the split level foyer. :sn:

The hall is now Valspar Polar white, and I continued that into the living room. At the corner I switched to Valspar Light Raffia and proceeded to the next corner where I switched back to Polar White. I continued alternating colors down the split foyer.

I have also painted two bedrooms, so only one bedroom is left to do plus the dining room.

With a bit of luck and perseverance I should be finished in time to get back tot he HT room before they get here.

Steven


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

Well, things are not progressing well, Septic tank / drain (leach) field problems have distracted me from any progress.


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

3 for 3 wanting to "Terralift" my leach field to fix a problem with roots growing in the lines.

Why don't I trust these people?

Where are the professionals?


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## TheGimp (Jan 27, 2015)

It has been almost 6 months since I posted. The front yard is slowly growing fresh grass but needs to be landscaped to even it out after most of the septic system was dug up and repaired.

I've got my speakers built and installed so the surround system is up and running.

I'm looking at which TV to get and am leaning towards the UN65JU7100 from Samsung. Also considered are the Sony XBR65X850C, and LG 65UF850. All three of these are currently priced around $2000.

I've read a couple of reviews indicating the Samsung and Sony picture quality is better than the LG so I'm pretty much ruling LG out.

I was going to buy before Christmas, but since there is no family to enjoy it before then I have reconsidered to wait until after CES as prices are expected drop then.

Comments? Recommendations?

I've not found any reviews of the Samsung on the site, so my evaluation is mostly based on reviews on other sites and consumer ratings on sites like Best Buy.


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