# EQ 4 Mains...



## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

I'll like to EQ my mains and want to know what you guys think.
I'm big on EQing car stereos it makes a big difference, when is done right!!:jiggy:

Do you think this one will work ?
(only $130)








Enjoy the limelight with the Ultragraph Pro FBQ3102, a professional 31-band stereo graphic equalizer for both live and studio applications. Its amazing patent-pending FBQ Feedback Detection System instantly detects feedback frequencies and can also be used as an audio analyzer, making the FBQ3102 a welcome addition to every touring setup. Adding some extra oomph to your music is made easy with the dedicated mono subwoofer output with adjustable crossover frequency. You can effortlessly remove unwanted frequencies such as floor rumble by using the switchable low cut filters for each channel, and level setting is easy with the 4-digit LED output metering and input gain control.

The FBQ3102 features uncompromising components such as the ultra low-noise audio operational amplifiers that provide outstanding sound performance, and servo balanced inputs and outputs with 1/4" TRS and gold-plated XLR connectors. You can expect unmatched reliability and longevity because high-quality illuminated faders, detent ALPS® potentiometers and illuminated switches were designed for the rigors of every-day use.

* Professional 31-band stereo Graphic Equalizer for both live and studio applications
* Revolutionary FBQ Feedback Detection System instantly reveals critical frequencies
* FBQ System can also be used as an Audio Analyzer!
* Dedicated mono subwoofer output with adjustable crossover frequency
* Low cut filters for each channel remove unwanted rumble
* Shielded toroidal power transformer for ultra low-noise performance
* Ultra low-noise audio operational amplifiers offer outstanding sound performance
* 4-segment LED output level display per channel
* Servo-balanced inputs and outputs with 1/4" TRS and gold-plated XLR connectors
* Illuminated faders, detent ALPS® potentiometers, and illuminated switches
* Rugged all-metal chassis ensures long life even under the most demanding conditions
* Designed in Germany. Manufactured under ISO9000 certified management system


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Frankly I’d be scared to use any equalizer as cheap as that in a hi-fi application, Rodny. The +/- 3 dB variable in the frequency response spec would be enough to scare me off.

Can’t hurt to try, though – just make sure you have a generous return policy.

A couple of things to check for: Noise and fidelity. 

You can check for noise with nothing playing on the system. Turn the receiver up until you can hear some residual noise from the speakers when you’re up close. Set all the EQ bands and other functions to flat, and switch it in and out. There should be no noise added when it’s engaged.

For fidelity, with all controls flat, play pink noise through the speakers and switch the EQ in and out. There should be no change in the timbre of the sound.

If possible, check with an old receiver that has a tape monitor loop, to fully switch the EQ in and out, totally bypassing it.

After that, judge for yourself with listening tests. As with auditioning speakers, simple, uncluttered program sources are typically best – acoustic jazz ensemble with vocal, etc. 

Even if it passes the above tests, there can be other issues with cheap EQs, like the filters being inaccurate or overly broad. I found this out once when I did a head-to-head with a pair of Yamaha and Ashly EQs. 

As I said, experimenting never hurts. Be interested to see what you find.

Regards,
Wayne


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Audyssey :spend:


----------



## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Thanks Wayne!!:T

The guys at the store told me I can bring it back if it doesn't work, they have more EQs so I'm going to check then out this weekend.
What brand you think I should look for?


----------



## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> Audyssey :spend:


I need 7, one for each speaker....:dumbcrazy: :bigsmile:


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

The Audyssey is 8 channel, so you have one extra channel to spare.


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> What brand you think I should look for?


 Get us a list of the brands they have.

Regards,
Wayne


----------



## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Hey Wayne!!
I found this one...... 
http://www.behringer.com/DSP8024/index.cfm?lang=ENG


----------



## Danny (May 3, 2006)

I personally prefer digital EQ's, you will need a few of them though. Another thing to check is whether when you pull a high frequency whether it introduces more high frequency noise into the signal.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

That 8024 is a heavy duty machine... it does an aweful lot and I believe it has auto eq. 

Thinking about this, if you are only wanting to eq your mains, then this is not for movies, it's for music, otherwise I don't think you'd really benefit much eq'ing the mains only, would you?


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> Hey Wayne!!
> I found this one......


 Well, it’s a digital equalizer, which means another AD/DA conversion in your signal chain. No big deal with the BFD for the subs, but for the mains – not so sure.

The same guidelines I posted above apply – make sure it’s neutral and quiet before you give it the thumbs up.

Regards,
Wayne


----------



## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> That 8024 is a heavy duty machine... it does an aweful lot and I believe it has auto eq.


Yep!!



> Thinking about this, if you are only wanting to eq your mains, then this is not for movies, it's for music, otherwise I don't think you'd really benefit much eq'ing the mains only, would you?


Yes is for music!, but I will think the it will help for movies to...... or NOT:dontknow:


----------



## khellandros66 (Jun 7, 2006)

Actually guys there is a $499 8ch one from these guys..

http://www.alesis.com/product.php?id=45

I would love nothing more then to see a new REW with 7.1ch setup and measurement capabilities. Esp if the REW gave you a choice of selecting each channel and what medium such as Dolby Digital 5.1/6.1 or DTS 5.1/6.1 so that you can have two presets depending on the type of audio track that is being played..

~Bobby


----------



## terry j (Jul 31, 2006)

hi guys

I can't explain why the 8024 is still showing on the Behrinhger website, but I am pretty sure that that model has been supereceded....???... by the DEQ 2496.

Another example, I think the UB 802 may still be listed, but again am certain it is no longer manufactured and has been replaced by the Xenyx 802.

Maybe they stay on the site for a while after discontinuation??

Anyway I have mucked about with it and yes it does make a nice change to the sound. There is a very nice write up on how to use it on Audio Review Forums, a guy called Mike Anderson did a write up that was very helpful titled 'Thoughts on using the behringer DEQ 2496 for room correction'.

What I really liked about it was that in addition to a 31 band graphic, it also has 12 parametrics on each channel and does RTA correction on your system. After using the GEQ to get a flat FR on your mains, switch to the PEQ and use an absolutely fantastic program called REW to get as flat a response in your room as you'd like.

Perhaps some of you have heard of that program?...:laugh: 

I am using a DEQX in my own system, but if I was not lucky enough to be able to afford that I would with no hesitation use the DEQ in it's place.

I have posted in the BFD forum about using it and REW, and plenty of pics that may help you get a handle on it

lots of love

terry

I also have a couple of reviews on the 8024 and it's successor, will have to dig them out to be able to let you know. Thought they were in my bookmarks but...

Let me know if you want the 'links' and I'll dig them out


----------



## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

With a good return policy at your store, I'd start off small and work your way up to the more expensive products until you get the results you want. That or buy the cheaper one and the expensive one at the same time and see if you can tell a difference.

I don't have it, but I'm a believer in using a little judicious eq'ing to squeeze a little more performance out of a system.

As for the AD/DA issue, I know I'm in the minority (probably) on this one, but I don't think with today's converters that this is such an issue anymore. Again, i realize I'm probably not speaking for most folks on this issue.

Good luck and I look forward to hearing about your tests.

JCD


----------



## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

JCD said:


> ..snip...
> 
> As for the AD/DA issue, I know I'm in the minority (probably) on this one, but I don't think with today's converters that this is such an issue anymore. Again, i realize I'm probably not speaking for most folks on this issue.
> 
> ...snip...


I don't think its so much the AD/DA chips, although there are definately good and bad ones, but more the pre/post circuitry. Behringer seem to have a hum/buzz issue which could easily be to do with the 
op-amps and how they are implemented to drive/buffer the AD/DA converters. If this makes sense?

my rambling thoughts anyway


----------



## warnerwh (Nov 28, 2006)

I personally like the Behringer DEQ 2496. This piece is super versatile and transparent. It even has a decent dac built in although I use a Bel Canto.

It's the ticket you want. For under 300 with the ECM 8000 microphone it's impossible to beat. Numerous audiophiles these days are using them. It has autoeq and it allows you to set your own curve.

It's also got a 31 band stereo equalizer as well as a 10 band stereo parametric equalizer. It's also got the BFD built in among other features. I know one guy who sold his 5,000 dollar Z systems after he bought the Behringer.

This is the best deal in equalization in the world as far as I'm concerned. I have a custom built and fully treated listening room and this little piece helped me improve my sonics considerably. If it ever dies I'll head straight to a pro audio shop and buy one and pay full retail if I have to.


----------



## mdrums (Jan 1, 2007)

I hope I do not burst anyones bubble here or come across as throwing flames but in my profession as a musical instrument rep I need to tell you all that Behringer is NOT mid level or high end products in the musical instrument/pro audio industry. Behringer is built as a low cost product to meet a certain price point for low end PA installs. These products will add noise to your system and smear the true and natural audiophile sound you are after.


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Mike,

Most folks here are aware that Behringer is a low-end pro brand. However, home applications are less demanding than pro applications, and some of their gear seems to work well for certain home theater applications. For instance it turns out that their 1124 Feedback Destroyer makes for an excellent subwoofer equalizer (since we have to deal with something most pro users don't - room modes). 

Aside from that, quite a few audiophiles have been impressed with the 2496.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0705/behringerultracurve2496.htm
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?rprea&1107728225&openfrom&1&4

On the downside, some people have reported reliability problems – a standing complaint with pro applications.

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/3796

Regards,
Wayne


----------



## mdrums (Jan 1, 2007)

Hi Wayne, like I said not trying to throw flames here and make enemy's but just give some truthful insight since I am in probably 15 pro music instrument stores each week. Actually pro's have to deal with room modes a lot. The live concert hall has room modes too. I have heard about a lot of people useing the feedback destroyer as a parametric to eq the subs. actually I'd love to try that our on my system just to see. However, I'd NEVER stick a Behringer EQ in line for my mains.


----------



## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

Hi guys, I think Mike and Wayne are on the same wavelength. I think what Wayne means about home applications being less demanding is that there are no mics so feedback is not an issue. Getting good coverage is heavily reliant on speaker design and placement, and due to the size of the room each speakers gain structure has to be more precise. This then means that any equipment in the audio path has to have a good S/N ratio and have a certain degree of accuracy to its performance. I personal think room modes are more noticable (and thus harder to deal with) in a small room than a larger, why else would there be so much effort in designing studios. 

my thoughts anyhow, correct me if I am wrong.

dr f


----------



## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

Um, well, except that I'm going to go completely with Mike here. Doesn't matter about less demanding or feedback. Sticking a lower quality EQ unit into your mains is going to introduce NOISE. And lots of it. The only reason that's okay in a pro venue is because you're running super big speakers at super high volumes so there's already noise/hiss and you're just playing over it.

But for home theater, you will need really expensive (in my opinion) EQ gear, or go all digital.


----------



## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

hi Josuah, thats the point I was trying to make. When your are sitting 2 metres from your speakers and the SPL is only 80dB you are going to hear the flaws in all your audio gear. I think most of us agree that a cheap eq is going to be trouble in most home environments. Having never used the digital eq's I can't comment on how they sound or there accuracy.

cheers

dr f


----------



## terry j (Jul 31, 2006)

I've mucked about with this unit, mainly as it turns out when I was learning to use REW and happened to have it sitting here but not a BFD. Admittedly it was not on my main system, but one handy to the computer and hence handy to learn on.

Having said that, the system I used it on I wouldn't particularly call low end rubbish, and it sounded pretty **** good to me. Now, I'm not up on uber end systems etc, so I'm thinking of testing this out a bit.

I'll re-hook up the unit into this system, and this time have a listen for added noise.

My question, how could I do this 'scientifically' ? Is it as simple as hooking it up, have no music playing and see if I can hear extra hiss?? Or are we simply back to subjective, critical listening.

The other thing to consider, when playing with it to learn REW, I was obviously using the computer sound card, and so going into the analog input and hence through the conversions, some of which that would be uneccessary if going digital in whn fully set up in the system. The 'fact' that I got good results in the less than optimum situation is at least promising.

Any thoughts on what and how to test, if indeed anyone is interested???


----------



## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

All the analog EQ units I've stuck in my mains path have introduced audible noise when there is nothing playing. The digital EQ unit I stuck in still did this, but it wasn't a whole lot of noise and I could live with it for a while.


----------



## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

terry j said:


> ...snip...
> 
> Any thoughts on what and how to test, if indeed anyone is interested???


You'd have to go to some lengths to get un-desputable results, I'd justy stick it in and trust your ears. Youv'e got no reason to be biased as you already have the unit and haven't made any claims to try and backup. 

Josuah: just about what I'd expect of any cheap EQ, I have heard of a few Audio nuts breaking open the digital berry gear and moding the output stages and replacing the DACS, this apparently reduces the noise considerably, although TBH I don't entirely trust Audiophiles for an unbiased opinion.


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Josuah said:


> All the analog EQ units I've stuck in my mains path have introduced audible noise when there is nothing playing. The digital EQ unit I stuck in still did this, but it wasn't a whole lot of noise and I could live with it for a while.


 Just curious, Joshua, do you remember the makes and models of those equalizers? And was the noise seen with all bands flat, or with boost applied? Just for my own edification – people seem to ask about equalizers fairly frequently, so I like to be able to tell them which ones to avoid.



terry j said:


> My question, how could I do this 'scientifically' ? Is it as simple as hooking it up, have no music playing and see if I can hear extra hiss?? Or are we simply back to subjective, critical listening.


 I gave some rough guidelines to evaluate this and other aspects of an equalizer’s performance in my first post in this thread, so you might want to go back and review it.

However, I was talking about analog equalizers, not digital. In order to use those tests with a digital equalizer, you’d have to know for sure that the “Bypass” switch was also bypassing the AD/DA converters, because they enter into the equation. If the converters aren’t bypassed, it’s a lot harder to evaluate a digital EQ’s affect on noise and fidelity.

Regards,
Wayne


----------



## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

dbx 231, noise when all flat, horrible noise when cutting high frequencies.

I can't remember the other analog ones I tried. I think the dbx 231 was the last analog one I tried.

Alesis DEQ831, IIRC, was the digital one I lived with for a short time. Noise when all flat.


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Thanks Joshua. I think you’ve confirmed once again that people should be cautious using cheap equalizers for their mains. The dbx specs at 90 dB S/N and the Alesis at >100 dB A-weighted. Both those figures are comparable to what most receivers do these days, so they should have been fairly unobtrusive, especially with all bands set to flat.

By comparison, my AudioControl EQs are pretty much dead silent. Even with the system turned up all the way with no signal, you have to put your ear right up to the speaker to hear any noise, with the EQ in or out. But then their list price was $500 per mono unit...

Regards,
Wayne


----------



## mdrums (Jan 1, 2007)

To get some noise free eq's that do not hurt the overall sound you all are going to have to spend some major bucks. Klark Teckic is one brand to look at. Massenberg, Avalon all make great parametric stuido eq's. If you really want to go at this the correct way you need parametric eq's as a graphic eq will effect the surrounding frequency's you are trying to adjust and will skew your goal.

Inserting a dbx, Alesis, Berhinger, Samson eq into your home system might be fun to play with but it will take away from the soundstage, quality of the reporduce sound and add lots of noise.


----------



## Danny (May 3, 2006)

I agree with Mike, If you have a few thousand $'s spare go for a Klark Teknik or other high end EQ (i've also had good results with a Sabine). Has anyone used a Yamaha EQ? I have found one going at a good price but I have never heard them, can anyone comment on the quality of the sound and build etc.


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Danny,

If you’re talking about Yamaha’s pro models, they’re pretty much universally reviled over at the Live Audio Board. I’ve used them myself so I can attest to the fact that they’re junk. Even worse, expensive junk. They’re comparably priced to the Ashly short-throw EQs, and the Ashlys blow them away. I’ve heard rumors that they’re sourced from Phonic.

If you want to try one out, no need to pay list. You can get them for practically nothing on eBay, since they have no re-sale value. The only reason I still have mine is that it’s in a non-critical application (my bass guitar rig) and that I’d only be able to sell it for a mere fraction of what I paid for it new.

I did a write-up of a head-to-head comparison I did between the Ashly and Yamaha in my bass rig some years ago – if you’re interested PM me and I’ll see if I can dig it up.

Regards,
Wayne


----------

