# New system for the great room...



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Now that we have the new Samsung 61" LED DLP in the great room, it's time to get a small non-invasive system to accompany the new display. My wife has commented that the sound on the DLP is lacking tremendously compared to our former Toshiba big screen. Of course she has wanted larger speakers for a while now for when she listens to the digital music channels.

This great room system needs to be simple and inexpensive as possible. We are not looking for anything that will blow us away. I don't even really care for surround, just front LCR and a receiver. The center will be placed on the top shelf of the display stand and therefore is limited to a maximum height of 6".

The only source right now is a Dish Network ViP622 receiver. However, when the Samsung dual hi-def player comes in for the HT room, I'll move the Toshiba XA2 to the great room.

I prefer floorstanding mains so that I want have to worry with stands, but I'm not going to totally rule out the use of stands.

For the center I'm considering the Yamaha NS-C125PN 2-Way Bass Reflex Center Channel Speaker System (Piano Black) for $100 shipped.










This center will fit easily within the 6" shelf space since it's a little under 4" tall.

For the fronts I'm considering the matching Yamaha NS-125FPN 2-Way Bass Reflex Tower Speakers (Piano Black) at $150 shipped.










I like that these are small/slim and will not be intrusive, plus they are piano black which will match the piano black bezel around the DLP display. $250 for a LCR setup seems cheap enough. Obviously though, with these only sporting 3" woofers, the response is going to be extremely limited. I'll need a very small sub and Yamaha hasn't long released something that I think will work perfectly and will fit in with the equipment easily.

Yamaha YST-FSW150BL Advanced YST II Down-Firing Active Subwoofer and it appears Dell surprisingly has this for $160 shipped. 










This sub should fit on my display shelving with my components and keep me from having a sub box on the front wall.

Of course all of the above are merely what I've found thus far that seems like a good fit. Total in the speakers is $410. 

Receiver wise... the least expensive unit that will pass 1080p HDMI appears to be the Onkyo TX-SR505 7.1 Channel Home Theater Receiver (Black) for $263 shipped.










$673 for this system is really more than I want to spend so I may end up having to opt for a HTIB system. Or maybe consider better towers with 6.5" woofers and fore go a sub since we're not looking for thunder or boom.

Suggestions and recommendations are welcomed!


----------



## MrPorterhouse (Jul 29, 2006)

For extreme value, the Onkyo HTIB's are about as good as they come.
http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=HT-SR750&class=Systems&p=s
The center is almost 7" in height, so this system may not work, but it should fit the bill for cost and performance.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Sonnie, you of all people should know that spending just a bit more is a huge step up but I agree that the Onkyo HTIB systems cant be beat. and the best part is you dont have to upgrade the receiver even if you replace the speakers down the road.


----------



## Captain Crunch (Apr 2, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> Sonnie, you of all people should know that spending just a bit more is a huge step up but I agree that the Onkyo HTIB systems cant be beat. and the best part is you dont have to upgrade the receiver even if you replace the speakers down the road.



:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:


----------



## Captain Crunch (Apr 2, 2007)

AV123 x-sls Tower Loudspeaker
and no one has to tell you sonnie about SVS!

Used x-sls or a used svs set up ......cough cough hint hint!!


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I would go with the SVS setup, but the center won't work and it's a little more than I want to spend. Not to mention I'd probably need a sub with those. I haven't checked out the x-sls speakers, but I'll look at them.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

What a difference a few days makes... the Shack store drops the price on the Onkyo 505 to $239 shipped and Matt posts his review on the Yambeka Audio Speaker System. 

I'm thinking about ordering up both, we may have something going on in our great room in a few days.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Things have changed drastically... just like that. The wife now wants a larger display... the 61" is not big enough, so we sold the 61" to my brother and we will be getting the 67" when it is released hopefully soon. In the meantime we are still using the 61" for a while until my brother gets his place.

I did go ahead and order the Onkyo receiver and the Yambeka speakers for him. They will work very nicely for him. However, I don't think we will want tower speakers with what we are about to do now. Most likely we will go with the same receiver as I ordered my brother. I have actually thought about stepping up to the 875 just for the Reon processor, but that's a lot of money for a receiver in our great room. I would only want the processor if it improves satellite pictures, otherwise there would be no need for the expense.

The wife now wants the full entertainment center that she has wanted for quite some time. I suppose we are going to move ahead and build it now, so things may change a little on what system we get.

Here's the plans for the entertainment center...










We may end up doing some cabinets down low... this is not final by any means, just tentative plans.

This attaches to the corner hutch that we use to use for our equipment rack several years ago before we built the dedicated HT room. The entire front wall will be filled with one big massive shelving system.

Here's an old picture of where the above will go...











The great room is big... huge... 20' x 22' or something like that... with lots of door openings and 10' ceilings. No place for acoustical treatments, not to mention the WAF. Keep in mind though, we are not looking for blasting the windows out sound. We simply want to improve on the TV sound, which is horrendous in these slim DLP displays. The wife listens to some music channels all along and the TV speakers just don't cut it for her. 

I suppose the most important feature we will be looking for is good dispersion since the seating is so spread out, therefore the most important decision will be for the speakers. I suppose we will most likely be looking at bookshelf speakers now. I just don't see towers fitting in the entertainment center. The shelves will be adjustable, but the wife is not going to want speakers taking up that much room. Bass is not in the picture because she does not like the rumbling type sound. Whatever the bookshelf speakers will do will most likely be fine. 40-50Hz shouldn't bother her too much and should keep us happy enough with bass for this room. No doubt that will be better than TV speakers anyway.

The center will no longer be as limited as it was before because we can place it on the adjustable shelf just above the TV. Height should not be nearly the issue it was before.

I'm going to be considering my bookshelf and center options for now. Budget is probably somewhere around $1000 or less for the front three speakers. I do have access to quite a few brands at cost... and I am not against buying used from Audiogon and similar. 

I would like to have several options to choose from... if you have any, I'm listening.


----------



## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

Are you planning on having a subwoofer in this setup? If not what are you looking for in terms of LFE from a bookshelf?

Lastly, would your wife allow a Behringer processing unit (DCX2496) in your great room?

edit: One more thing - would you be opposed to modifying a speaker slightly? Some minor woodworking skill would be required for certain mods while others would require access to a heat gun.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

No sub... wife doesn't care for the rumble and how the bass travels through the house. Probably 40-50Hz with the bookshelves will be ample. 

The Behringer probably would not match too well... and would probably make things more complicated than I want to get in the great room. Same with woodworking on speakers. I don't want to go quite that far, but some simple modification I don't mind. It would be nice if we could find something that is plug 'n' play, if you know what I mean.


----------



## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> No sub... wife doesn't care for the rumble and how the bass travels through the house. Probably 40-50Hz with the bookshelves will be ample.


What if the sub was used in conjunction with the bookshelves and easily fit in the bottom area of the shelfing you are planning? This will substantially increase sound quality and would not be used for a deep LF, but rather for a more balanced sound. 



Sonnie said:


> The Behringer probably would not match too well... and would probably make things more complicated than I want to get in the great room. Same with woodworking on speakers. I don't want to go quite that far, but some simple modification I don't mind. It would be nice if we could find something that is plug 'n' play, if you know what I mean.


The modifications would not be mandatory, but would increase sound quality more specifically midrange clarity greatly. As far as the Behringer unit goes it would not necessarily be needed as well, but again would greatly increase sound quality due to its built in parametric EQ as well as its crossover functions. It would allow for complete integration of the proposed sub as well as treble roll off to user preference. Since I have already started on my recommendations I will post them anyways and let you think about it while I search for other alternatives.

My recommendations for this room will likely be vastly different than the typical, but will likely result in the highest fidelity possible within your price range. First the recommendations:

3x Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE  - About $550 (Perhaps cheaper if they are still on sale)
1x (2x would be ideal) Dayton Sub-100s - About $125 each
1x Behringer DCX2496 - About $270

Total is $945 with one sub and $1070 with two.

Justifications:

The CBM-170s (Measurements can be found here) have an extremely linear response on the range played. This is due to the high quality crossovers and drivers used (I speculate even higher quality than found in the Sierra-1). You will also note the off-axis response of these speakers closely matches the on-axis this will give a wider sweet spot as well as superior imaging. Also, this speaker wouldn't be too hard to drive, thus a regular receiver such as the Onkyo 805 you mentioned would be more than sufficient. 

The largest issue with this speaker would be cabinet resonance as it is with most all commercially made and DIY speakers. To combat this I would recommend some minor to drastic modification. Depending on your skill level you might want to choose a lower level modification which will have less substantial impact on sound quality. Please do note that once these modifications are performed you will likely have made your speakers "worthless" for resale. Since you are not entirely interested in modifying these speakers I will only go into this subject if asked as far as an extremely easy modification I would recommend removing the drivers and lining the insides with OC705 or 8lb Mineral board to reduce standing wave issues.

The Dayton Sub-100 is recommended for a few reasons. Firstly it is fairly compact and will fit within the cabinet you are planning quite easily and secondly proper integration (x-over around 100hz) of this subwoofer with the bookshelves would greatly increase perceived sound quality by allowing the bookshelves to 'focus' more on the higher frequencies. The reason two is recommended is due to stereo use as they would ideally be within a few feet of the bookshelves themselves. Due to the nature of the situation I would say you can get away with one. 

While the recommended bookshelves are able to get down to 50Hz they will not be able to do it with great dynamic range due to their size. The subwoofer will allow for a greatly increase dynamic range of the low end as well as possible allowing for less distortion in the midrange.

The DCX2496 is recommended because it is simply the swiss army knife of the audio world. It will allow for perfect integration of the subwoofer(s) with the bookshelves as well as equalization for ideal response. Another issue is I *only *recommend speakers with a linear frequency response. Perceptual research has shown that preference of treble response lays with a gradual roll off. Rather than having a passive approach to this I recommend the Behringer unit so the ideal response can be attained. I recommend a high-shelving filter at 4kHz 6db/oct slope so it is -2dB at 10KHz, but this can change depending on preference as well as hearing loss due to various factors. In any case having a linear speaker allows for equalization towards virtually any frequency response desired. Since you say this might increase complexity too much I would offer to help program the DCX for you. Also, the unit does not need much airflow so it could be possible to hide it in a cabinet. As far as cables go if needed I can make them for you as well. Also, since your wife doesn't care for reaching too low the DCX could be used as a filter to stop frequencies that go below her tastes on the sub while still maintaining the wanted frequencies and full dynamics.


Let me know how much I have stepped out of the bounds of the WAF as well as your comfort zone. I am confident full implementation of this recommendation would yield the highest quality sound for the money you want to spend. Loudspeaker modification would be the next step along with room treatments, but I can fully understand not wanting to take those steps.


----------



## WmAx (Jan 26, 2008)

While avaserfi's recommendations of the CBM170 speakers, stereo subs and a DCX2496 are of value, one thing that must be additionally considered is that the average surround receiver will not allow proper use of the DCX processing unit. This is because the DCX must be inserted between both the sub amplification stage and main speaker amplification stage. Doing with with separate power amplifiers is easy. The problem, of course, is cost. You would have to buy a separate power amp in addition to the surround receiver, and use the surround receiver as only a pre-amp unit(assuming it has pre-amp outs). If you only wanted stereo, then stereo receivers are fare more likely to have a bypass loop(pre amp output with direct amp input that can be used simultaneously).

-Chris


----------



## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

WmAx said:


> While avaserfi's recommendations of the CBM170 speakers, stereo subs and a DCX2496 are of value, one thing that must be additionally considered is that the average surround receiver will not allow proper use of the DCX processing unit. This is because the DCX must be inserted between both the sub amplification stage and main speaker amplification stage. Doing with with separate power amplifiers is easy. The problem, of course, is cost. You would have to buy a separate power amp in addition to the surround receiver, and use the surround receiver as only a pre-amp unit(assuming it has pre-amp outs). If you only wanted stereo, then stereo receivers are fare more likely to have a bypass loop(pre amp output with direct amp input that can be used simultaneously).
> 
> -Chris


Very true. I didn't think of that although with the current cost of capable HDMI 1.2 receivers it is likely that a sufficient 2 channel amp could be purchased along side a receiver that is last years model for a price similar to the Onkyo 805. Eventually a small and inexpensive mono block could be purchased for the last unamplified (powered via receiver alone) center channel if it is felt that tonality during movie playback is not equal enough between the stereo speakers and center allowing for even equalization.

Edit: For what its worth with your budget this is exactly how I would spend my _own_ money...


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Unfortunately I don't think the wife if gonna go for a sub and give up her space. I was lucky to get the the center rack. I told her we pretty much had to have that to put the audio and satellite receivers. I definitely don't want to get into having to have a separate amp. I would rather try to keep this as simple as possible.... and do the best we can with a simple setup.


----------



## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> Unfortunately I don't think the wife if gonna go for a sub and give up her space. I was lucky to get the the center rack. I told her we pretty much had to have that to put the audio and satellite receivers. I definitely don't want to get into having to have a separate amp. I would rather try to keep this as simple as possible.... and do the best we can with a simple setup.


Understood. Any idea the maximum size (HxWxD) the bookshelves can be? If the ability to dynamically reproduce 40-50Hz is required a larger than average bookshelf will likely be wanted.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I think we are flexible there... probably no more than 18" tall... probably 10-12" wide and depth doesn't really matter I don't think. The shelf will be about 20-22" deep.


----------



## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

Well, upon further review it seems the best option would still be three CBM170s with a slight modification. This would be well under your budget (especially if you went with the refurbished units).

As previously said the cabinets resonance will be the biggest issue. Since you would not want to do complicated wood work I would recommend using Peal N Seal to line the entirety of the inside of the cabinet sans the baffle. If you use this at 1/3 the thickness of cabinet so about 1/4" thick it will reduce the cabinets resonance substantially and will require no wood work as you will just have to take the driver off apply the Peal N Seal and you are golden. Before putting the driver back in I would also strongly recommend placing some OC705 or 8lb mineral board (the cheaper of the two) inside the cabinet while removing all absorptive material previously placed within the cabinet. You might have to play with this dampening slightly as too much can ruin low frequency response. Starting off with 3-4" on the rear wall as well as 2-3" on the bottom of the cabinet would probably be sufficient.

There will be a slightly decreased low frequency response due to these modifications caused by the slightly smaller cabinet volume along side the dampening, but this trade off will be more than worth. This is because these modifications would make the speaker have less coloration due to resonance as well as more detailed, again due to the lowered resonance floor. Also, any standing wave issues should be near complete if not completely removed with the high grade acoustic material.


----------



## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

How about PSB GB1 Monitor, :bigsmile:
http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/G-Design/G-Design-GB1-Monitor

here are some more............

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=31326

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=28525

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=30876

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=30878

http://www.onecall.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=29721


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Ascend specs the in-room response down to 53Hz, but the test measurements you linked to only show extension down to about 80Hz or so. What's that all about?










What would be your second and third choices after the Ascends?

I may also have a hard time selling the wife on a 12" tall center. I was thinking of laying it on it's side, but it's almost as tall as it is wide. Is the CMT-340 SE CENTER not a good choice?


----------



## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

Rodny Alvarez said:


> How about PSB GB1 Monitor, :bigsmile:
> http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/G-Design/G-Design-GB1-Monitor
> 
> here are some more............
> ...


While I was not able to find credible measurements on all of these listed speakers I have looked into a couple of them and none were of the same quality as the recommended Ascend bookshelf. 

Also, I would likely remove the NHT3 off the list as I was considering recommending it until a friend pointed out the extremely low sensitivity of these speakers and high cabinet resonance. It is extremely likely an external amplifier would be needed to power such speakers in a dynamic situation if no clipping is desired.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I like the PSB, KEF and NHT being I can get those at cost. :bigsmile:

The Piano Black PSB match the display trim.


----------



## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> Ascend specs the in-room response down to 53Hz, but the test measurements you linked to only show extension down to about 80Hz or so. What's that all about?


The measurements linked does show an F3 of around 80Hz which is not surprising considering the single 6.5" driver being used. From what I have seen most all manufactures have a tendency to overrate their products which is why I find credible 3rd party measurements so important. This roll off is also why I originally recommended use of at least one small sub to relieve the bookshelf from the LF as the CBM will produce some lower frequencies but not with the dynamics you could achieve from a integrated system.

With the limitation of using solely a bookshelf speaker there will be some sacrifices in the low frequency area to be had. If you want to achieve a more dynamic lower end without getting a subwoofer it is very likely this will be at the cost of the midrange clarity as well as off-axis dispersion.



Sonnie said:


> What would be your second and third choices after the Ascends?


As far as I have found the Ascend is in a league of its own for the price paid especially when coupled with the modifications specified. The driver/crossover network are of extremely high quality.



Sonnie said:


> I may also have a hard time selling the wife on a 12" tall center. I was thinking of laying it on it's side, but it's almost as tall as it is wide. Is the CMT-340 SE CENTER not a good choice?


The CMT-340 would probably work well albeit it will likely have slightly more resonance. I would still suggest the same modifications.

Edit: If possible I strongly recommend you see if your wife will allow at least one of the Dayton Sub-100s in the cabinet. They are extremely inexpensive and very small (14-3/4" W x 16-1/2" H x 15-3/4" D) with accurate output and low distortion. Even if integrated via the receiver having one of these will greatly increase listening pleasure and be worth every penny and cubic inch furthering the sound quality of the proposed system greatly and vastly outclassing *anything *in the price range.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I think I like these Ascends pretty well. There was a time I almost bought the CMT-340's all around. I think a pair of 170's and the 340 center could work.

I also mentioned this sub in my first post... which would fit in my rack on the bottom and not be so intrusive as a box sub. I can't find any reviews on it much, other than a few user reviews.

Yamaha YST-FSW150BL Advanced YST II Down-Firing Active Subwoofer


----------



## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> I think I like these Ascends pretty well. There was a time I almost bought the CMT-340's all around. I think a pair of 170's and the 340 center could work.


They are a great value. Are you planning on doing the modification I recommended (strongly I might add ) ?



Sonnie said:


> I also mentioned this sub in my first post... which would fit in my rack on the bottom and not be so intrusive as a box sub. I can't find any reviews on it much, other than a few user reviews.
> 
> Yamaha YST-FSW150BL Advanced YST II Down-Firing Active Subwoofer


I highly doubt the Yamaha would be the same quality found in the Dayton and it is only smaller in terms of height otherwise the two units are the same. If it was a choice between the Yamaha and just the Ascends I would probably just keep the CBMs alone and keep bugging the wife until she breaks down for the cheaper Dayton. 

Another feasible option would be building a small specialized mid-woofer capable of reproduction of the wanted ranges. If the right driver is chosen you could follow this course of action and have a small box with reasonable output and far higher quality then the Yamaha while being less expensive.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Yes, I could do the mod with no problems... the Peel N Seal looks like Dynamat, which I have some of that already. I also have some Rubberoid that would have to be glued.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I would still like an option B and C. I've got some time before the entertainment center will be ready... and I would hate to know I missed out on something else.


----------



## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> Yes, I could do the mod with no problems... the Peel N Seal looks like Dynamat, which I have some of that already. I also have some Rubberoid that would have to be glued.


Peal N Seal and Dynamat are essentially the same thing with the former being the cheaper version. Let me know what you think of the speaker before and after the mod.

Ohh yeah, because I haven't done it in the last five minutes :cunning: how about that Sub-100

*nudge nudge*


----------



## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> I would still like an option B and C. I've got some time before the entertainment center will be ready... and I would hate to know I missed out on something else.


Honestly, at that price point I am not aware of anything that meets much less exceeds the performance of the CBM-170 for this specific application. The drivers and crossovers are higher quality than found in most speakers at and below its price point and even some of higher quality loudspeakers.

Normally I would be willing to make multiple recommendations for a situation, but as of now I just can't in good conscience :huh:.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Unfortunately the sub ain't gonna happen. She has plans for the only area it could go and there isn't enough room for it in the center rack.

I'm not asking for necessarily something to meet or exceed this setup... just something else to consider that would be second and third best. If Ascend didn't exist or if they go out of business before I buy... :sarcastic: ... what would you (or anyone else) choose. If that company didn't exist, what would the third choice be? 

I like options. :T


----------



## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> Unfortunately the sub ain't gonna happen. She has plans for the only area it could go and there isn't enough room for it in the center rack.


Well then you could try the Yamaha thing and see if you/your wife likes it, but I think you will want to put a high pass filter on the thing at around 40-50Hz as I have a feeling distortion will be very audible below and possibly above this cut off. With minor woodworking skill you could probably build a custom enclosure designed for this specific purposes, but that would probably call for a Behringer.



Sonnie said:


> I'm not asking for necessarily something to meet or exceed this setup... just something else to consider that would be second and third best. If Ascend didn't exist or if they go out of business before I buy... :sarcastic: ... what would you (or anyone else) choose. If that company didn't exist, what would the third choice be?
> 
> I like options. :T


The next best option would be a 3-channel Sierra-1 set up, but this would exceed your budget. While the Sierra-1s seem to have a lower quality crossover/driver network implemented than the CBM 170 their cabinet seems to have significantly less resonance compared pre-CBM modification. This lowered resonance floor will likely make for a more enjoyable listening experience. So...lets hope Ascend doesn't go out of business :sob:.

If you are looking for another alternative that would from a different brand I am at a small loss, but would make this following recommendation as a very distant third to both the Ascend options. Find an older pair of Primus 150 or 160 speakers (not xx2). Modify these in the same method as recommended with the CBM. This will result in a speaker of reasonable quality, but its off axis response will not match that of either Ascend options. Also, even after the modification I have a hunch that the resonant modes within the Infinity cabinet will be more pronounced than that of the either Ascend.

Part of the issue at this price point is there just aren't a lot of high quality options due to the large amounts of sacrifices that must be made in the production process so a company can make any sort of profit. This is why I have been recommending the CBM 170 so strongly it simply has the best crossover and drivers I have seen in this price range with its only limitation being the cabinet. This limitation is easy to overcome while the others are more or less set.

I really wish I could recommend more, but it just isn't fair the Ascend is the clear winner here...:gah:


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

What about at a higher budget? After the Sierra's, if you could spend more, what would you go to?


----------



## WmAx (Jan 26, 2008)

Sonnie said:


> What about at a higher budget? After the Sierra's, if you could spend more, what would you go to?


Well, you can go higher in quality, but at what reason for this application? If this is going to be installed in such a limited installation, certainly ideal position and use will not be possible.

But, as to answer.... the two additional significant steps in 2 way bookshelf monopoles, relative to measurable/verifiable characteristics in relation to likely enhance perception based qualities are:

Better: B&W 705: This speaker has excellent linearity, excellent drivers, very good off axis response and somewhat lower resonances as compared to a standard cabinet.

Best: Focal Mini Utopia: This speaker has excellent linearity, excellent driver and very good off axis response, and a nearly inert cabinet system, using a high thickness wall system with lead layers and extensive bracing. 

-Chris


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

WmAx said:


> Well, you can go higher in quality, but at what reason for this application?


As far as the more expensive options, I was mainly curious.

I am having a hard time believing that out of the hundreds of speakers available in this price range that there are not options that are fairly close to the Ascends. But then again, I do realize these have been recommended based on supposedly credible off-axis response measurements and therefore a host of speakers that may be good or even better are quite possibly being left out.


----------



## WmAx (Jan 26, 2008)

Sonnie said:


> As far as the more expensive options, I was mainly curious.
> 
> I am having a hard time believing that out of the hundreds of speakers available in this price range that there are not options that are fairly close to the Ascends. But then again, I do realize these have been recommended based on supposedly credible off-axis response measurements and therefore a host of speakers that may be good or even better are quite possibly being left out.


Yes, all recommendations I have made are based on quantified characteristics.

For anywhere near the price, the Ascend model referenced is the best of which I know that has been verified by credible 3rd party(NRC Lab in this case). However, in your particular installation, even this speaker would not be able to be used to it's potential. You could consider something a step down, such as the Infinity Primus series speakers, and save money, if you are happy with the vinyl covered cabinets.The Primus speakers can be had for extremely low prices, and are among the best performers in their respective price ranges of which I am aware. If you do use speakers mounted/set in a cabinet system, use some sort of material to mechanically decouple vibration. I recommend a high ILD high density latex foam, at about 1/2" thickness, covering the entire bottom of the speaker(s). This particular foam will not easily flatten or lose it's compresion properties, even after 10 years. You can find such foam at custom foam places such as foamonline.com. Also, I know for certain the Primus speakers use an acoustic absorption material inside that is useless for the primary bandwidth in which the midbass driver operates. Replace this with a high performance product such as 2" thick OC705 or no. 8 mineral wool board on all walls, perhaps doubling this on the rear wall. Most acoustic foam are worthless, so I don't generally recommend them, unless you get a verified high grade foam such as Auralex. If you used Auralex, I would suggest using 2 layers of 2" wedge foam and gluing them face to face to create a solid thicker piece for maximum effective use. It also would do some good to apply a 1/3" thick in layers of Peel N' Seal or similar material(Dynamat) to the interior walls to reduce delayed energy amplitude by some degree.

-Chris


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Most likely I will go with the Ascends, but it's not chiseled in stone yet. The cabinet guy came by last night and we are pretty excited about the addition and he says he can have it done in a few days. The verdict is still out until he calls with a price today.

As far as the Dynamat... this that I have is the Extreme Dynamat and it has a foil backing. Is that a problem?


----------



## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> Most likely I will go with the Ascends, but it's not chiseled in stone yet. The cabinet guy came by last night and we are pretty excited about the addition and he says he can have it done in a few days. The verdict is still out until he calls with a price today.
> 
> As far as the Dynamat... this that I have is the Extreme Dynamat and it has a foil backing. Is that a problem?


Good to hear. I have only handled Peal N Seal before, but from what I can see the Dynamat you mentioned should work well too.


----------



## WmAx (Jan 26, 2008)

Sonnie said:


> As far as the Dynamat... this that I have is the Extreme Dynamat and it has a foil backing. Is that a problem?


Dynamat will work fine. It is very similar to Peel N' Seal in effectiveness. The main difference is that Dynamat has an adhesive designed to bond in higher temperatures, for example, when attached to the trunk lid of a black car in the middle of summer. This probably equates to 140 degree or higher temperatures. In this case, the Peel N' Seal may release; it's glue is not designed to hold upside down in such high temperatures.

Realize that you will have to use several layers of Dynamat in order to get a sufficiently thick application to have substantial resonance decay action(s). In the range of 5 layers can be expected. The general rule for applying materials similar to Dynamat to wood based paneling for maximum effects is to apply the dampening in at leat 1/3 the thickness of the wood. 1/2 thickness is the maximum. Exceeding this amount, and you will gain very little increase in dampening performance. To have greater performance requires a constrained layer damping system, which is not easily done in a modification to an existing speaker. But it _can_ be done.

Do you have the appropriate acoustic dampening materials(OC705 or #8 Mineral Wool Board)? Do you plan to use these?

-Chris


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

WmAx said:


> Do you have the appropriate acoustic dampening materials(OC705 or #8 Mineral Wool Board)? Do you plan to use these?


No I don't have either of these, but I'm thinking I can get some at our building supply down the road.


----------



## WmAx (Jan 26, 2008)

Sonnie said:


> No I don't have either of these, but I'm thinking I can get some at our building supply down the road.


One last detail: When you install the first layer of Dynamat or similar, heat the adhesive side that bonds to the wood/MDF surface in the cabinet with a heat gun. This will insure a high quality bond that will endure. I have found that the adhesive can sometimes let loose after a time period if used cold, when bonding to the wood/MDF surface.

-Chris


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Okay... the entertainment center is in and I did some painting tonight. Still a while away from using it since I have to finish painting it and the let it set for a few days to completely dry. 

I think I have pretty much decided on the Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 Reference Monitors. They are a stretch past my budget, but they come in piano black and extend much lower than their smaller sibling. Hopefully with the LCR set up, we won't need a sub. Off-axis measurements look pretty good as well. 










I need to decide on the receiver now, but it's looking like one of the Onkyo's may do it for me. I'm wondering if the upconversion in one of the higher end models would do anything for my Dish Network SD 480i image? Those models do get quite expensive though.


----------



## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

Congrats on the purchase. The Sierra 1's perform very well for their price point.

As far as getting an upscaling receiver versus a non-upscaling one (Onkyo 805 versus 875). I am a proponent of not spending a considerable amount of money on buying an upscaling chip. When my dad was in the market for a new receiver he was dead set on upscaling unit (the 875 in fact). I took him to a dealer and we compared the 805 and 875 on regular SD TV signal and there ended up being a slight difference which isn't surprising, but he decided it wasn't worth at least spending another $600.

I think this is a decision you can only make yourself, but it is important to remember SD is on its way out right now and upscaling will become less and less important.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

That is a good point... most of our favorite channels on Dish are already HD on DirecTV and it's my understanding Dish will be adding those channels in HD soon. If they don't, we'll be swapping to DirecTV. Either way I suppose I can survive for a few months to a year with what we've had.

In that case, I'm not sure I even need the 805... but then again, those Sierra's are a tough load, although I want be pushing them hard at all. Still the 805 looks like it has some nice features over the 705 and 605... plus it specs better.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Sonnie, The 805 is a big step up from the 705 and in my humble opinion is the best receiver out there bang for buck. I have not had one issue with mine and is worth every penny. The THX ultra certification is something that I highly recommend as its stable to 3.2ohms. The 805 also has Burr Brown DAs
It also makes a great pre/pro if you decide to go that route in the future.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Here's the entertainment center with the first coat of paint. We'll get the second coat on in the morning and soon after should be able to insert all the shelves and cabinet doors on the bottom.










The center space beneath the big display opening will not have a door and will house the Onkyo receiver and satellite receiver... along with a DVD player of some sort, which is the other piece of the puzzle yet to be determined.

I am concerned about Onkyo receiver not getting enough ventilation since the front is all that is open. I could install a fan in the side wall and it would vent into the next section, which will have a door on it. I am thinking that would be sufficient to at least pull some air over the unit (and cause me to have to dust it more frequently :sarcastic: )


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> The center space beneath the big display opening will not have a door and will house the Onkyo receiver and satellite receiver... a


Will the sat receiver be under the Onkyo? Sat receivers tend to give off a fair bit of heat on there own could it not be possible to place it in the space next to it?


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

The Onkyo will most likely be on the bottom, DVD player in the middle and satellite receiver on top. I could actually vent a fan out the top of that section behind the display. There will be a hole there anyway for the HDMI cable. 

The spaces to the left and right will have cabinet doors, so it would be best not to place equipment in there... IR would not work.


----------

