# SVS PC12 Plus or PC13-Ultra?



## retro124 (Apr 22, 2014)

Hello Guys, I'm new here and I want to ask you what do you think:

I have now at home 2x PC12-Pluses and 1x PC13-Ultra.
I'm playing with subs today all day so I have a feeling 2x Pluses sounds little better to me then single Ultra. Even if I places pluses on each side next to my tower's feel little better to me. maybe single Ultra will outperform dual Pluses but only on paper in real listening it is hard to tell it. Another what is telling me to keep Pluses is Ultra is taller when my RF-82II's so It is also little minus on my side. So any idea what to do?

I played yesterday a lot of different movies and music all at 16Hz set up it is what SVS guy Ed told me to do for my room and I don't have a feeling even with single Plus I'm hitting max limit.
My room is now 14x14 with regular ceiling. later I will have little bigger room 16x16 again regular ceiling.
So you think 2 Pluses have more output then single Ultra? 
I'm really just between single Plus or Ultra or dual Pluses, it is all no Plus and Ultra. Thanks for help.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Well, what's your budget?
Are these brand new, inside the money back guarantee window?


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## retro124 (Apr 22, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Well, what's your budget?
> Are these brand new, inside the money back guarantee window?


Yes they all are from SVS web 2 from outlet 1 brand new all under full warranty. My budget is keep 2 pluses it is like $2300 for me or single Ultra $1599.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

This really is a tough one. On one hand the room is square, and two subs will help to even out the response. Provided you have the flexibility in placement. 
In the other hand the room is pretty small, and the new room isn't a lot bigger. The ultra will dig deeper. The pluses might edge it it out in spl. 
For me, I think the short version is keep the ultra. I think it's better to get one of the best subs you can afford, and hopefully a 2nd one later. Have you asked ed yet? Contrary to many companies, Eds interest is getting you the best experience. Even if that means only selling you one sub. I love PC plus subs, but I think the single ultra is what I'd do in that space.


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## retro124 (Apr 22, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> This really is a tough one. On one hand the room is square, and two subs will help to even out the response. Provided you have the flexibility in placement.
> In the other hand the room is pretty small, and the new room isn't a lot bigger. The ultra will dig deeper. The pluses might edge it it out in spl.
> For me, I think the short version is keep the ultra. I think it's better to get one of the best subs you can afford, and hopefully a 2nd one later. Have you asked ed yet? Contrary to many companies, Eds interest is getting you the best experience. Even if that means only selling you one sub. I love PC plus subs, but I think the single ultra is what I'd do in that space.


Yes I talked to Ed and he said 2 Pluses is way to go over single Ultra and set them for 16Hz mode. I did it and I love result but I'm like you I have home now their best sub and I feel like I will miss something if I will let it go. I talked more with Jack from SVS and send him email today so I will see what will be his response to that.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

retro124 said:


> Yes I talked to Ed and he said 2 Pluses is way to go over single Ultra and set them for 16Hz mode. I did it and I love result but I'm like you I have home now their best sub and I feel like I will miss something if I will let it go. I talked more with Jack from SVS and send him email today so I will see what will be his response to that.


Im really curious to jacks opinion too. I thought for sure Ed would have called for the single. I guess that's why you have to ask him! I still find myself wrestling with it. I still say if you can ever swing an ultra in the future, I'd hold out. ...or.... Lol!


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## retro124 (Apr 22, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Im really curious to jacks opinion too. I thought for sure Ed would have called for the single. I guess that's why you have to ask him! I still find myself wrestling with it. I still say if you can ever swing an ultra in the future, I'd hold out. ...or.... Lol!


I will let you know. Many people are vote for dual Pluses over single Ultra. If I will keep Ultra it is it no second one. I need to get $$$ for my 7.1 or 7.2 speakers as well. Now I have Klipsch RF-82II's and RC-62II so still need surrounds and rear set.


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## retro124 (Apr 22, 2014)

retro124 said:


> I will let you know. Many people are vote for dual Pluses over single Ultra. If I will keep Ultra it is it no second one. I need to get $$$ for my 7.1 or 7.2 speakers as well. Now I have Klipsch RF-82II's and RC-62II so still need surrounds and rear set.


here is Ed's email:
Hi Pavel -

Jack is off for the week/weekend and will return Monday. Not being fully up to date - I would take dual Plus over a single Ultra in almost any situation. Neither solution will be stressed in that size room. Regarding your options and permutations below - all of them seem doable and reasonable - so after you demo compare and decide - let us know and we'll make it happen. 

Ed Mullen, PE
Director - Technology and Customer Service
SVS


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Well, I guess if the future does not hold another ultra, I'd say do the pluses too. If you said in less than a year you could do it, I'd say wait but if it's never happening(sounds like home) do the pair. I have two pluses, and love em. You will too!


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## retro124 (Apr 22, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Well, I guess if the future does not hold another ultra, I'd say do the pluses too. If you said in less than a year you could do it, I'd say wait but if it's never happening(sounds like home) do the pair. I have two pluses, and love em. You will too!


Oh so you do also have to PC a PB series pluses? How big is your room? Are you using 20Hz or 16hz mode? Thanks


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

retro124 said:


> Oh so you do also have to PC a PB series pluses? How big is your room? Are you using 20Hz or 16hz mode? Thanks


Well, in the interest of full disclosure, one if them is an SVS pc plus, and the other I built as a clone. It performs identically in my space. My space... A bit of a nightmare. My setup, and LP is in a room of 28'x16'. The sunken part of that room is 16x23, and one foot deep. Adjacent to it is a kitchen of the same dimension. The vaulted ceiling in the middle is 11'. Off the kitchen is part of the addition we put on, and the opening into that is 12' wide. I don't remember the dimensions after the kitchen, but my space is trouble, and huge. I do run 20hz tune. I tried 16, and it was sweet, but I decided to save the headroom, and the driver. If my room were similar to yours in size, I would run 16 all day long.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

It really shouldn't be all that complicated of a decision. Ed has been doing this for a long time and he is rarely going to be wrong. They both have almost identical extension. The Ultra is -3dB at 15Hz, the Plus is -3dB at 16Hz (both in the 16Hz tune with one port plugged). The extension comparison is really irrelevant. The difference is going to max output and the potential for a smoother response with the dual PC12-Pluses. See Why Go Dual written by Ed, along with I am sure quite a few experiences of those with dual subs that have posted on the forums. 

You will basically need 1.5 PC12-Pluses to equal the output of a single PC13-Ultra... and you have two, so the output capability will be greater with the two PB12-Pluses. However, it is unlikely you will ever reach the full output capability in that room... or even one slightly larger. So the benefit is going to weigh towards the dual PC12-Pluses due to potential to achieve a smoother response in the room. As mentioned earlier, this can be effected by limited placement options. Case in point, we had one customer who purchased dual subs and was limited to only a specific location for each sub. If he played one sub it sounded great. When he connected the second one it created a huge null that greatly reduced the overall output of the bass. If he moved one of the subs on down the side wall, it was better than a single sub, but he could not leave it there. Placement has _everything_ to do with how good a sub is going to sound in any given room. This is why when you walk around the room the bass will be louder in some spots than others. Although you have to be careful to not always necessarily think that the louder spot is best, as it could simply be a peak at a particular frequency that is causing the bass to seem louder. 

It may be that those two specific locations that someone may be limited to are perfect for their room, but in another room, they may not be. There is no way to guess or tell someone else what is definitely going to work... it takes some trial and error... and we don't hear what you hear because we are not there. Dual subs can be great, but in some cases you need placement flexibility. If you can get it to work out, you are greatly rewarded in most cases. In some cases a lower crossover point on one of the subs can help eliminate cancellations/standing waves if they are at higher bass frequencies. 

This is where it really helps to have REW to measure the response of the subs in the room so that you can see what is going on with various placements.

Don't let others make your decision for you though... no one knows what you are hearing unless they go to your place and listen. If you run REW and post some graphs, we can all better see what is going on with you and it makes it easier to help with determining if you have good placement for dual subs.


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## retro124 (Apr 22, 2014)

Sonnie said:


> It really shouldn't be all that complicated of a decision. Ed has been doing this for a long time and he is rarely going to be wrong. They both have almost identical extension. The Ultra is -3dB at 15Hz, the Plus is -3dB at 16Hz (both in the 16Hz tune with one port plugged). The extension comparison is really irrelevant. The difference is going to max output and the potential for a smoother response with the dual PC12-Pluses. See Why Go Dual written by Ed, along with I am sure quite a few experiences of those with dual subs that have posted on the forums.
> 
> You will basically need 1.5 PC12-Pluses to equal the output of a single PC13-Ultra... and you have two, so the output capability will be greater with the two PB12-Pluses. However, it is unlikely you will ever reach the full output capability in that room... or even one slightly larger. So the benefit is going to weigh towards the dual PC12-Pluses due to potential to achieve a smoother response in the room. As mentioned earlier, this can be effected by limited placement options. Case in point, we had one customer who purchased dual subs and was limited to only a specific location for each sub. If he played one sub it sounded great. When he connected the second one it created a huge null that greatly reduced the overall output of the bass. If he moved one of the subs on down the side wall, it was better than a single sub, but he could not leave it there. Placement has _everything_ to do with how good a sub is going to sound in any given room. This is why when you walk around the room the bass will be louder in some spots than others. Although you have to be careful to not always necessarily think that the louder spot is best, as it could simply be a peak at a particular frequency that is causing the bass to seem louder.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your great answer it helps a lot. I checked on SVS why Go dual and I love the idea to have a 2 subs. My Denon X4000 is ready for 2 subs also.I'm also limited with where to put them but from what I saw on SVS web I should be ok Screen and Tower and sun next to it in corner both sides same. I have each sub next to my Klipsch RF-82II tower on each side. So REW works also with mac and where to get it? Do I need to get something else?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Those placements in that example are merely suggestions, and are no guarantee that those specific placements are going to sound correct in your particular room.

REW will work with Mac, although I am not familiar with Mac. You can get REW right here at HTS and there is also an REW Forum for help in getting it setup. You need a calibrated mic... UMIK-1 from miniDSP is what I recommend, which there is info here about that too. Check out this section here at HTS: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/equalization-calibration/


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## retro124 (Apr 22, 2014)

Sonnie said:


> Those placements in that example are merely suggestions, and are no guarantee that those specific placements are going to sound correct in your particular room.
> 
> REW will work with Mac, although I am not familiar with Mac. You can get REW right here at HTS and there is also an REW Forum for help in getting it setup. You need a calibrated mic... UMIK-1 from miniDSP is what I recommend, which there is info here about that too. Check out this section here at HTS: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/equalization-calibration/


Alright, I'm going to give it a try. Let me go get it and I will see if I will be able to learn about it. Your post are very helpful, I may go back to you and ask you about some results with measuring, thanks again.


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