# Plasma Pretty Please!



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Please help save my plasma (Panasonic TC-P55ST60)! I was going to swap it out of the HT room for a new 4K set, but after comparing the two I want the plasma back. It has a gorgeous picture in every way but one...

In high-contrast scenes such as a full moon against a starry sky, there are color "bands" around the moon. In other words, the night sky doesn't blend gradually from light to dark. You can also see the bands in underwater scenes and fade-outs.

I've calibrated the set using the Spear & Munsil disk playing on an OPPO BDP95. I've also follwed the setup instructions for turning off gimmick settings like "Noise Reduction." The set doesn't seem to have advanced settings for color-space, gamma, etc. 

Is it possible for this set to display the described scenes properly, or do I need a better set? The 4k "replacement" I tried is eye-popping in some respects, but has too many trade-offs with soap-opera effect (people look like they're "pasted" onto a background scene). I really, really, want to like the 4k set, but with all the deals on soon-to-be-discontinued plasmas, I'm wondering if a higher-end model will solve my woes.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

You do have a lower model Plasma however that should not give you the results you are describing. Are you seeing this on all sources? Im asuming your using HDMI.
Its fairly common on DVDs and some Netflix and satellite feeds because of compression. You should not see this on good Bluray movies like Maleficent.
On the OPPO does it have a setting to turn on "deep color"


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Sounds like false contouring. Usually one of the video processors is responsible. I switched from component to hdmi in my bedroom and the false contouring got worse. Not sure what that's all about. I think he's talking about his plasma. If the reference is to the 4k, it's probably "halo" effect from the backlighting. Another reason to dislike led.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Fwiw, false contouring could be the case on either tv.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> You do have a lower model Plasma however that should not give you the results you are describing. Are you seeing this on all sources? Im asuming your using HDMI.
> Its fairly common on DVDs and some Netflix and satellite feeds because of compression. You should not see this on good Bluray movies like Maleficent.
> On the OPPO does it have a setting to turn on "deep color"


Yes, everything's connected by HDMI with high speed rated cables. 

No, not all sources have the problem now that you mention it. I very seldom see it on Blu Ray's. The Oppo upconverts DVD's, but they still show the problem much more frequently. Cable TV is the worst. It has HD programming, but 720p qualifies, so most of the shows are low quality. I chalk-up video artifacts on cable to low resolution..

I set the Oppo's Deep Color to "Auto" and its Color Space to 4:2:2.

Before I read your post, I searched our forums for "banding'" as in "color banding," and got a boat load of hits in Blu Ray movie reviews. Are you saying that source quality can cause this banding as much as a cheap display can? I'm starting to think that better TV's reveal more programming warts just like better audio gear does. No place for bad mastering to hide! :hide:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Sounds like false contouring. Usually one of the video processors is responsible. I switched from component to hdmi in my bedroom and the false contouring got worse. Not sure what that's all about. I think he's talking about his plasma. If the reference is to the 4k, it's probably "halo" effect from the backlighting. Another reason to dislike led.


The learning curve gets ever steeper :reading: :sweat: 
Okay, I'll bite. What does "false contouring" mean in layman's terms? If a processor is responsible, then I would guess there isn't much hope of having any knobs to turn or buttons to push to fix it.

Yes, the problem with "banding" happens on my plasma. And yes, I've witnessed the halo effect on the 4K set (along with a bunch of other artifacts). I tried calibrating it this evening using the Spears & Munsil disc, and turned off all the automatic processing; but those hours of effort only made the picture WORSE! Maybe I need to spend more time experimenting with its settings, because it has many I'm unfamiliar with (gamma, 2 and 10 point white something or other, etc.). It makes me not want to take LED seriously for HT. I can't help but think the big dollar sets with their gorgeous picture would solve my problem, but it's not in my budget. I need to stay out of the stores... arrrrggghhhh. Anyway, I'm off-topic and venting!! :hissyfit:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey Lou. Real bummer about your plasma. I don't know what I'd do if mine gave up the ghost. I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same thing with "banding" or false contouring. To my understanding, this happens with video processors that are basically not powerful enough. That translates into artifacts (as your learning much about lol). In this case, the inability to process all the different gradations, or gradients and translate them into a smooth "fade". I think the most guilty culprits are entry level tv's, but cheap disk players can be trouble too. 
Those dang stores and big displays! Not fair. Lol


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Hey Lou. Real bummer about your plasma. *I don't know what I'd do if mine gave up the ghost.* To my understanding, this happens with video processors that are basically not powerful enough. That translates into artifacts (as your learning much about lol). In this case, the inability to process all the different gradations, or gradients and translate them into a smooth "fade". I think the most guilty culprits are entry level tv's <SNIP>.


Give up the ghost? I don't think there's something broken in the set, do you? Oh, I get it. It's a pun, right? From what you wrote afterward, I don't think you mean the TV is broken. Should I have it checked? 




willis7469 said:


> Those dang stores and big displays! Not fair. Lol


:yes:  :yes: :foottap: :yes:  :yes:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Haha! That would've been a great pun, had I thought about it. I just meant if my tv died. :-( Thankfully she's still holding on. Do I understand correctly, that your plasma is dead, and no parts available?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

The set has the blood pressure, cholesterol, and energy of a healthy teen (it's only a year old). It did have some teething pains with the HDMI input board, which was replaced under warranty in the first month. Could have been what's known in the electronics industry as "infant mortality." Or it could have been one too many "hot plugs" (connecting/unconnecting with power on). Who's to say? :whistling:

Even with its limited, basic limited adjustments *the picture still impresses me after all this time*. I'm a little dissatisfied with the way it handles motion (subtle jerkiness with control off getting increasingly panoramic dizzy effect has control is increased). But just a little dissatisfied with that. *My only real gripe is the effect we've been discussing.* 

I'll try to post an image of the artifact when I get the set re-installed in the HT. Right now there's a new 4K LED set in there I'm trying to calibrate. Extremely dissatisfied with it because the picture looks fake (people pasted onto the background)!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

what kind of HDMI cable are you using? Have you tried replacing it with a different one?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I think the led's issue with "pasted people" is the 120/240hz refresh rate. Some call this "soap opera" effect. That's how I describe it. It's a crutch used by lcd displays to deal with motion blur. That comes from lcd pixels not refreshing fast enough at 60hz. Plasma is almost instantaneous so this is dramatically reduced if not eliminated. I sold tv's for awhile and ppl would either hate 120, not notice, or prefer it. The latter had the least voters though. I personally hate it, and that's why I'd be hard pressed to replace my plasma with a current display(not plasma). Not that I couldn't find one(maybe), but it's all about the Benjamin's. ...and WAF... Dang it!!!!


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## mvision7m (Feb 9, 2013)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Please help save my plasma (Panasonic TC-P55ST60)! I was going to swap it out of the HT room for a new 4K set, but after comparing the two I want the plasma back. It has a gorgeous picture in every way but one... In high-contrast scenes such as a full moon against a starry sky, there are color "bands" around the moon. In other words, the night sky doesn't blend gradually from light to dark. You can also see the bands in underwater scenes and fade-outs. I've calibrated the set using the Spear & Munsil disk playing on an OPPO BDP95. I've also follwed the setup instructions for turning off gimmick settings like "Noise Reduction." The set doesn't seem to have advanced settings for color-space, gamma, etc. Is it possible for this set to display the described scenes properly, or do I need a better set? The 4k "replacement" I tried is eye-popping in some respects, but has too many trade-offs with soap-opera effect (people look like they're "pasted" onto a background scene). I really, really, want to like the 4k set, but with all the deals on soon-to-be-discontinued plasmas, I'm wondering if a higher-end model will solve my woes.


If it's possible, try setting your Blu-Ray player's HDMI output setting to the '4:4:4' color space output. On the TV, set '1080p direct' in to on. Assuming of course that they my not already be set up this way. 

My set up, as a reference, is as follows...

OPPO BDP-95 
Set to output 1080p 
Color space = the 4:4:4 option 

Panasonic tc-p65ZT60 
'1080p direct in' ON 
96Hz 
I have all other picture settings off (motion smoother, resolution enhancer etc). 


My set has been professionally calibrated and with the settings stated above, I've got stunning picture quality with almost no noticeable banding, line bleed or other issues including motion issues. 

The very few instances of banding I have seen have been very minor and very infrequent. Some I have attributed to the source, some the TV itself but for 95-98% of the time, just smooth gradient images with beautiful color, pop, depth and motion. I have seen both light banding and very minor line bleed a few rare times in the year that I've owned this set but those times have been so few that I can't hold them against the set overall. My VT30 on the other hand showed more of both issues. 

Although my set is a couple of models up the range from yours, I see no reason your set shouldn't perform as well when it comes to those aspects of picture quality. 

Best of luck. I love the 60 series plasmas from Panasonic and I believe they produce some astounding images and are quite possibly, the best televisions ever made or at least tied with the best ever made.


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## mvision7m (Feb 9, 2013)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Yes, everything's connected by HDMI with high speed rated cables. No, not all sources have the problem now that you mention it. I very seldom see it on Blu Ray's. The Oppo upconverts DVD's, but they still show the problem much more frequently. Cable TV is the worst. It has HD programming, but 720p qualifies, so most of the shows are low quality. I chalk-up video artifacts on cable to low resolution.. I set the Oppo's Deep Color to "Auto" and its Color Space to 4:2:2. Before I read your post, I searched our forums for "banding'" as in "color banding," and got a boat load of hits in Blu Ray movie reviews. Are you saying that source quality can cause this banding as much as a cheap display can? I'm starting to think that better TV's reveal more programming warts just like better audio gear does. No place for bad mastering to hide! :hide:


My calibrator, whom is a very well known and highly respected calibrator, told me 'Deep Color' should be OFF and color space set to 4:4:4 

I can't say for sure if those settings are accurate if you haven't had a pro calibration done and used Spears&Munsil instead but, can't hurt to try.


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## mvision7m (Feb 9, 2013)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Yes, everything's connected by HDMI with high speed rated cables. No, not all sources have the problem now that you mention it. I very seldom see it on Blu Ray's. The Oppo upconverts DVD's, but they still show the problem much more frequently. Cable TV is the worst. It has HD programming, but 720p qualifies, so most of the shows are low quality. I chalk-up video artifacts on cable to low resolution.. I set the Oppo's Deep Color to "Auto" and its Color Space to 4:2:2. Before I read your post, I searched our forums for "banding'" as in "color banding," and got a boat load of hits in Blu Ray movie reviews. Are you saying that source quality can cause this banding as much as a cheap display can? I'm starting to think that better TV's reveal more programming warts just like better audio gear does. No place for bad mastering to hide! :hide:


Didn't read this thread all the way through when I replied earlier (have to get into that habit) and missed where you said you have the same blu Ray player I do. Nor did I read that you don't really see the issue on Blu Ray. 

I see minor banding mostly on TV commercials (verizon commercials to name one). I don't pay it any mind as cable is highly compressed. Same for streaming media, while watching something on Netflix I can see the image become really crisp and clear, very close to actual HD (blu ray) and a little later, I guess as my bandwidth bottlenecks a bit, the image of the same show becomes less sharp and shows some banding. It's certainly source dependent and as I stated in my other reply, I see it so rarely with blu-rays that I usually chalk it up to being in the source material and not a fault the set is having. 

Watched Lawrence of Arabia on blu Ray (truly awesome by the way) yesterday and the long, sweeping, beautiful shots of the desert and one shot in particular of the sun rising over the desert horizon showed 0 issues at all. It was spectacularly rendered on my set. You should being seeing (in most respects) a very similar image to what get considering your TVs are of the same series and we have the same blu ray player. 

I'm thinking you're seeing compression artifacts. 

If I had read the thread through earlier there wouldn't be 3 posts from me. Hope no one minds too much.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yup, its simply compression that is causing the "banding" its fairly normal on unconverted DVDs and cable, satt feeds as well as netflix. Nothing wrong with your plasma at all.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Wow! What a great turn out! I can't thank you all enough for your detailed comments and genuine concern for my problem. This is truly a great forum!

I said I'd never do it again because of an almost fatal typo replying on a smartphone in the back of a bouncing bus. So I'll get back with each of you tomorrow.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Reading about the Samsung PNF8500 Plasma deals on our home page has me drooling. At that close to the 4K's price, I'm hard pressed not to "bite". The plasmas will be going fast on Black Friday at best buy ( they refuse to sell me one now, but I know they're in there )!!!! So I don't have time to putz around trying to be satisfied with the LCD-LED set. 

Probably need to sleep on it. Thanks again!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> what kind of HDMI cable are you using? Have you tried replacing it with a different one?


Good point, Tony. Forest, trees! Sometimes we forget to check the simple things. I'd forgotten what type I had, so dug out the order and found it was an HDMI Hi Speed with Ethernet. There's some controversy on what's necessary and what's all-out, but I opted for all-out.

You made yet another good point--just because a cable is new doesn't mean you shouldn't try a different one. I would have tried, but I just couldn't stomach the picture (even for a good Blu-Ray thru the Oppo). The picture on the 4K set was just too alien compared to my plasma. Special effects scenes looked like older movies where you can tell the stormy sea was really just splashing in a bathtub. Buildings exploding into collapsing rubble looked like model train villages being lit with matches and pulled down with string. :thumbsdown:

Very hard to describe, but it just did not look real, no matter what I tried. In any case, it doesn't matter now because I returned it to the store and am chasing an almost extinct Sammy 8500 series plasma. :daydream: raying:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> I think the led's issue with "pasted people" is the 120/240hz refresh rate. Some call this "soap opera" effect. That's how I describe it. It's a crutch used by lcd displays to deal with motion blur. That comes from lcd pixels not refreshing fast enough at 60hz. Plasma is almost instantaneous so this is dramatically reduced if not eliminated. I sold tv's for awhile and ppl would either hate 120, not notice, or prefer it. The latter had the least voters though. I personally hate it, and that's why I'd be hard pressed to replace my plasma with a current display(not plasma). Not that I couldn't find one(maybe), but it's all about the Benjamin's. ...and WAF... Dang it!!!!


Continuing my individual replies as promised yesterday...

I tend to agree with you on all points. I really adore the eye-popping detail, crisp images, and general impact of the newer LCD-LED sets (but only up to a point and only until the pyrotechnics wear off). 

I especially applaud your "3-camps" description. I've met too many people that have "bragging rights" sets, only to have them display everything in "stretch" mode. What a joke. It just can't wrap my mind around how someone can constantly watch faces stretched across the screen like sausages! :unbelievable:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

mvision7m said:


> My calibrator, whom is a very well known and highly respected calibrator, told me 'Deep Color' should be OFF and color space set to 4:4:4
> 
> I can't say for sure if those settings are accurate if you haven't had a pro calibration done and used Spears&Munsil instead but, can't hurt to try.


You're right! It can't hurt. and I will try. I set my Oppo to 4:2:2 color space and Deep Color = on. I was aware that the SM cal disc recommended doubling back to try the others, but I was too lazy and never got around to it. Time erased the option in my mind until you brought it up. Thanks, I will try it! 



mvision7m said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> Watched Lawrence of Arabia on blu Ray (truly awesome by the way) yesterday and the long, sweeping, beautiful shots of the desert and one shot in particular of the sun rising over the desert horizon showed 0 issues at all. It was spectacularly rendered on my set. You should being seeing (in most respects) a very similar image to what get considering your TVs are of the same series and we have the same blu ray player.
> 
> <SNIP>


A perfect idea for a good test--same blu ray on same player with similar display! 
Now need to get the movie :bigsmile:
I won't ask you to compare another, because...

But at this point in time, my original posted problem concerning "banding" is becoming a non-issue, as I've located and secured the purchase of a shiny new 60" Samsung 8500 Series Plasma! Not quite as good as the Panny's according to David Katzmaier's review, but very close and really the last of the plasma breed (to the best of my knowledge).


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Okay, here's my last promised response for yesterday....



mvision7m said:


> <SNIP>
> I see minor banding mostly on TV commercials (verizon commercials to name one). I don't pay it any mind as cable is highly *compressed*. Same for streaming media, while watching something on Netflix I can see the image become really crisp and clear, very close to actual HD (blu ray) and a little later, I guess as my bandwidth bottlenecks a bit, the image of the same show becomes less sharp and shows some banding. It's certainly *source dependent* and as I stated in my other reply, I see it so rarely with blu-rays that I usually chalk it up to being in the source material and not a fault the set is having.
> <SNIP>


That's one vote for *compression and source quality*.



tonyvdb said:


> Yup, its simply *compression* that is causing the "banding" its fairly normal on unconverted DVDs and cable, satt feeds as well as netflix. Nothing wrong with your plasma at all.


And another...

And finally, the good folks over at Value Electronics  listened patiently to my whole story (tangents and all) before reaching the same conclusion.

*Problem solved!* utstanding: :thankyou: ...and Happy Holidays!


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## mvision7m (Feb 9, 2013)

BlueRockinLou said:


> You're right! It can't hurt. and I will try. I set my Oppo to 4:2:2 color space and Deep Color = on. I was aware that the SM cal disc recommended doubling back to try the others, but I was too lazy and never got around to it. Time erased the option in my mind until you brought it up. Thanks, I will try it!  A perfect idea for a good test--same blu ray on same player with similar display! Now need to get the movie :bigsmile: I won't ask you to compare another, because... But at this point in time, my original posted problem concerning "banding" is becoming a non-issue, as I've located and secured the purchase of a shiny new 60" Samsung 8500 Series Plasma! Not quite as good as the Panny's according to David Katzmaier's review, but very close and really the last of the plasma breed (to the best of my knowledge).


"You're right! It can't hurt. and I will try. I set my Oppo to 4:2:2 color space and Deep Color = on. I was aware that the SM cal disc recommended doubling back to try the others, but I was too lazy and never got around to it. Time erased the option in my mind until you brought it up. Thanks, I will try it! " 

Forgot to mention another setting on the plasma. It should be... If you'd like to give my settings a try. Either way, good luck. 

TV, Under 'Advanced Picture'
24p direct in = 96Hz
1080p pure direct = ON 
HDMI/DVI RGB range = (standard) 
Black Level = LIGHT 

OPPO output 
1080p
24Hz = Auto 
Color space 4:4:4 

Happy thanksgiving to all.


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