# Receptacle boxes



## Dbeistel (Dec 31, 2006)

This may be a dumb question; but here goes. When you guys used 2 layers of drywall did you offset your receptacle boxes to make up for the extra difference; and was there enough wood to nail into?


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

*Re: Receptacal boxes*

The boxes are usually flush with the first layer and you can use a spacer ring to make up for the second.

Another option is an adjustable depth box. You nail to the studs as usual, but then you have an adjustment screw to line up the final depth. These are bit pricier, but for variable depth stuff, they are worth it. I"ve used them for tile installs, since the backer+tile is often not exactly the depth of drywall or a spacer.


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## mr_sparkelo (Dec 5, 2007)

*Re: Receptacal boxes*

If you are using metal boxes, secure the box even with the face of the stud, and use an 1 1/4" p-ring.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

*Re: Receptacal boxes*

The "rings" being mentioned are sometimes called "box extenders"


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: Receptacal boxes*

You can also just use adjustable boxes available from any of the big box hardware stores. They'll give you almost 1" of adjustment.

Bryan


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## tiggers97 (May 13, 2008)

*Re: Receptacal boxes*



Anthony said:


> The boxes are usually flush with the first layer and you can use a spacer ring to make up for the second.
> 
> Another option is an adjustable depth box. You nail to the studs as usual, but then you have an adjustment screw to line up the final depth. These are bit pricier, but for variable depth stuff, they are worth it. I"ve used them for tile installs, since the backer+tile is often not exactly the depth of drywall or a spacer.


What he said. I used both depending on if it was "new construction" or adding a layer to an existing wall. Home Depot/Lowes sells both the box extender, and boxes you can adjust with a screw to bring the in and out so they are perfectly flush with the wall :T


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

*Re: Receptacal boxes*

Hmmm... that gives me an idea for an existing project I've left unfinished for a few years in hopes that I would figure out how to make it meet code...
do the adjustable boxes come as the octagonal style? What's the range of depth?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Probably not but if you look long and hard, you might find mud rings (box extenders) in that shape that would work.

Bryan


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## tiggers97 (May 13, 2008)

I don't recall seeing octagonal adjustable boxes. Just single and dual box sizes. The whole purpose of hte code is to ensure nothing flammable/conductive could cause a fire. You might be able to use some type of PCV L-channel and cut/bend it into shape.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

bpape said:


> Probably not but if you look long and hard, you might find mud rings (box extenders) in that shape that would work.
> 
> Bryan


Yeah, I've looked at them, and looked at them, and looked at them... I just don't think I'll queeze them into where theyhave to go, which is kind of why I dug out behind the boxes that are there now, which is why there's a gap to where the what covers the boxes is... Trouble is, unlike the extenders for 1gang boxes, the ones for the octagon are quite strong and ridgid...



tiggers97 said:


> I don't recall seeing octagonal adjustable boxes. Just single and dual box sizes. The whole purpose of hte code is to ensure nothing flammable/conductive could cause a fire. You might be able to use some type of PCV L-channel and cut/bend it into shape.


PVC is an interesting idea. Also, I might just be worried about nothing. Certainly nothing as a practical matter...

Basically I have a gap between the light that covers the box and the box itself. Per code, that has to be closed with a non-flammable material. But we're not talking about truly empty space here. This is in a box made out of vinyl siding material that's probably only about an inch away. It might be an inch gap, BTW.


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## bbieger (Sep 15, 2009)

do you really need box extenders? Seems like your switches, outlets etc will have long enough screws to reach the box through two layers..


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## tiggers97 (May 13, 2008)

It's not so much the screws as it is being up to code. The box extenders extend the electrical box to keep the live wiring away from the sheetrock, wood, etc. "Things that can start fires".


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

Yeah, definitely need them for code. I've been in far too many houses, where the whole plug pushes in because the tiny tabs on the outlet no longer pinch against the drywall. In a proper install, they don't have do -- they rest on the box or box extender!

And when that happens, wires do come out. Just this week I saw an outlet that had the hot just floating in the box. Neutral and ground were wired to the receptacle. It must have popped off due to the slack in the box and I'm luck I didn't get a shock when I want to touch the metal cover plate. That kind of thing is rare, but it only takes one rare thing to burn your house down.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Its amazing what codes are in place for all sorts of things. 
Ones I see people doing wrong all the time are covering up junction boxes completely with drywall, using extension cords up above ceilings or in walls, Using extension cord wire for actual wiring between boxes, and putting more than one wire into a single breaker inside the panel. All No No's.


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

The sad thing is, most codes are very simple to follow and not necessarily more expensive. People just don't know them and go for the easy solution. Now when a pro does that . . .  :explode:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Anthony said:


> The sad thing is, most codes are very simple to follow and not necessarily more expensive. People just don't know them and go for the easy solution. Now when a pro does that . . .  :explode:


We have a guy here up In Canada that has a TV show called Holmes on Homes now called Holmes inspection that he shows all sorts of things contractors do wrong and he has to go in and fix them. Very scarry:rolleyesno:


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## bbieger (Sep 15, 2009)

Code smode. :whistling:


I have uncovered all manner of SCARY building practices in my rental house.


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

The wife and I love Mike Holmes! We get his show via HGTV here in the states. It's incredible the stuff he digs up. I think they recorded his anti-contractor rant once and just replay every episode 

Sorry to thread-jack, Dan.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> We have a guy here up In Canada that has a TV show called Holmes on Homes now called Holmes inspection that he shows all sorts of things contractors do wrong and he has to go in and fix them. Very scarry:rolleyesno:


ARGH! I've seen every episode they run here in the states. New episodes aren't being run here. Sometimes Canada is SO much better... :whistling:

OK, so maybe you guys can help me out, I pulled something Holmes would smack me for...
We hired a guy to do the roof/windows/siding... no probs, he did a great job... as an EE, when he started talking about hiring an Electrician to mount th enew lights, I decided to save the money and do it myself.
Before the siding went up, we had conduit on the outside of the house carrying 'lectrics to the light mounts. The contractor put up 1" foam board insulation behind the new siding, cutting channels in it so as not to disturb the old conduit. It's vinyl siding, and he used decorative "boxes" where the lights go. 
So I went in to install the lights. Like a good boy, I first put an electrical box into the vinyl box. I used the octagonal for added strength as these are big lights. I cut the opening in the vinyl box just big enough to get the electrical box in, which was almost but not quite too big for the mounting plate of the light to cover. But with an opening and a box that small, I couldn't get the proper connectors into the space to protect the wiring from the sharp edges on the electrical box. So I cut away the insulation from behind the electrical box, and got the box in with the proper connectors. The the only thing I'm down to, is this gap between the electrical box and the vinyl siding and light's mounting plate that I believe but not 100% sure is a code violation. I'll admit I haven't tried, but I don't think I can get the proper octagonal extender in there, but I'm at a loss for what else to use to fill this gap to code. Or since any direct line out of the box will hit vinyl, am I worried about nothing?:help:


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## tiggers97 (May 13, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> Its amazing what codes are in place for all sorts of things.
> Ones I see people doing wrong all the time are covering up junction boxes completely with drywall, using extension cords up above ceilings or in walls, Using extension cord wire for actual wiring between boxes, and putting more than one wire into a single breaker inside the panel. All No No's.


When I was rewiring some of the recepticals in my home theater, I did the right thing and verified every plugin in the circuit was dead after turning it off at the circuit breaker using both a light and a volt meter. Unfortunately I discovered the hard way that the receptical box with the common back to the circuit breaker was also the same common for the (still live) smoke detector circuit. Different hots, same common :rant:

Moral: Be careful out there even when it was professionally built.


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## bbieger (Sep 15, 2009)

tiggers97 said:


> When I was rewiring some of the recepticals in my home theater, I did the right thing and verified every plugin in the circuit was dead after turning it off at the circuit breaker using both a light and a volt meter. Unfortunately I discovered the hard way that the receptical box with the common back to the circuit breaker was also the same common for the (still live) smoke detector circuit. Different hots, same common :rant:
> 
> Moral: Be careful out there even when it was professionally built.


LOL I did the same thing when replacement a light fixture in the basement. turned the light on, and flipped breakers till it went off. Only none piece of romex into the light fixture so pretty straightforward.. Went to cut wire at light ZAP [email protected]#[email protected]#$. Turns out the installer was switching the light from a leg (using white common wire as hot running to switch). 

So yeah, take the 30 seconds to test that the circuit is dead. In the above post with the conduit and insulation... can you please explain a little better what it going on? Your conduit is running on the OUTSIDE? of your house? For security lights or something? Removing insulation to install a box not a problem. MAke sure to use weatherproof outside boxes. Seal everything back up with foam ( to prevent moisture from getting behind the foam).


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Yes, the people who owned the house before me ran conduit on the outside, up the existing siding, for dawn/dusk security lights. conduit is now behind new siding, and lights (in some locations) are more decorative than anything else, and security elsewhere... everything is waterproofed, not a concern. Only concern is the code issue where there's a gap between the front opening of the box to the vinyl and then the light fixture that acts as the cover. 

I suppose what I should do, now that the insulation is gone, is remount the electrical box, shimmed off the wall to where there won't be this gap. Not sure how the pros would've done it originally, but this mightbe my best bet now. Unless I can squeeze the proper extenders in.

Once agian, still not 100% sure it's a code violation as it is, can someone confirm?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

If the box is outside and there is not a watertight, approved cover directly on the box and sealing it, it's a violation anywhere I can think of.

Bryan


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

I'm afraid I'm not communicating very clearly. It's all water tight. As for water, the gap is protected by the vinyl decorative box. The question becomes whether the vinyl siding material is considered flammable.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

My fault. Ther has to be a watertight cover directly attached to the box. You have a gap that's outside the structure between the 2, even if it's behind siding.

Bryan


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Please excuse me for being so dense this week... (can't tell the difference...)
The way I see it...
Ideally, the electrical box would've gone on the wall before the siding box, and it would've bene the perfect depth for the light's mounting panel to sit flush on it. Voila! Meets code, yes?

So, the way I see it, the only way this is not to code is that the "cover" on the box leaves a gap between the cover and the box. So an extender the right depth would make it to code, yes?


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

I would think so, but with outdoor, you need to make sure it is sealed as well.

I'm having a similar issue with an exterior outlet box. The "code" flip cover won't fit because of the siding box, but an extension ring may not seal right. I'd rather not hack up my siding, but I'd also like a box that doesn't invite a sideways rain right into the house 

A picture would probably be worth at least 1000 words here to make sure. But remember, I'm not a licensed electrician (low voltage, yes, electrician, no  )

If you need advanced electrician knowledge, go to Mike Holt's forum. You'll get a lot of 'get a pro to do it' responses, but usually a few folks will chime in on what's code and what needs to be fixed.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Well, I actually consulted an electrician before I embarked on this, regarding a slightly different subject (the issue I'm now facing hadn't com eto mind yet)...
He assured me that being behind the siding there was no need for the conduit, despite this not being outdoor rated cable. From that I extrapolated (perhaps incorrectly) that the usual rules regarding outdoor items didn't always apply behind the siding. 
I'll make an excuse to take that guy out for a beer, and try to confirm whatever he tells me on the forum you suggest...
Thanks for all the suggestions!


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