# Which areas deserves treatment first? Determining first reflections....



## KASR (Jun 9, 2009)

OK, so I think I'm ready to begin tackling room treatments and acoustics....but I'm still a newb in training and since this place is chalk full of information and people who have "been there and done that" : I need some advice/opinions/suggestions!

I hope you like pictures....cuz I love em!! (no better way to show you what I mean!)

So here's the area:

Dimensions:









Here are actual shots of the room:




















Here's what the room looks like after I've got everything in place::::

Wall mounted surrounds:









From the middle of the room:









The equipment thus far:


















The seating: (I'm thinking of adding a riser...just gotta plan the space just right....)









Ok, so here's my question - which area needs the most attention from a speaker position point of view? I just don't want to pour money into acoustics and not notice anything different about the sound once everything is place...maybe that's the risk, I don't know...but there's got to be a good rule of thumb or starting point, right?

So here is a diagram of the room with numbers representing questionable points of reflection/echoing, etc. What do you guys/gals think?










Thanks in advance!


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

I guess the biggest question is how much of the stuff on the walls can move? 

I have some ideas for the space but without knowing what's fair game, it's hard to put together a full plan.

Bryan


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## KASR (Jun 9, 2009)

bpape said:


> I guess the biggest question is how much of the stuff on the walls can move?
> 
> I have some ideas for the space but without knowing what's fair game, it's hard to put together a full plan.
> 
> Bryan


I can move whatever needs moving - as far as wall hangings, pictures, etc.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

OK.

Trap the front left and front right corners floor to ceiling with broadband bass treatments. The rear corners may give you something but not as much. That can be a 'wait and see' thing.

You'll need a decent thickness panel behind each of the front main speakers and potentially a couple other panels over the TV to help kill reflections from the surrounds.

You'll also need an absorber on the left wall pretty much directly beside the left speaker to deal with boundary effects. The opening on that side will help with non-symmetry. Make sure the curtains are very thick and very full hanging even when closed.

Bryan


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## KASR (Jun 9, 2009)

bpape said:


> OK.
> 
> Trap the front left and front right corners floor to ceiling with broadband bass treatments. The rear corners may give you something but not as much. That can be a 'wait and see' thing.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bryan!!! When you say "front left and front right" .. do you mean areas "3, 10, and/or 11" or do you mean "6 and 7"?

EDIT:::: Nevermind...re-read your post and answered my own question! LOL!! Looks like you mean 3 and 11....or am I mistaken...again.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

3 and way way to the right of 11. The top, right corner of your drawing and top left corner of your drawing. I don't see anything at 10 other than a place for a panel behind the mains.

Also, you can improve bass performance a lot as well as imaging if you pull the speakers farther forward - maybe a foot?

Bryan


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## KASR (Jun 9, 2009)

bpape said:


> 3 and way way to the right of 11. The top, right corner of your drawing and top left corner of your drawing. I don't see anything at 10 other than a place for a panel behind the mains.


OK, got it! Extremely helpful info, brother!!!




bpape said:


> Also, you can improve bass performance a lot as well as imaging if you pull the speakers farther forward - maybe a foot?
> Bryan


Do I want to pull LCR and bass speaker forward or just bass or just L/R speakers?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

L and R for sure. 

Sub - that's something you just have to play with and find the right place where it's the smoothest.

Bryan


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## KASR (Jun 9, 2009)

bpape said:


> L and R for sure.
> 
> Sub - that's something you just have to play with and find the right place where it's the smoothest.
> 
> Bryan


Thanks Bryan! You've given me an excellent jumping off point and I have to admit, I'm pretty excited to getting this started!


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## Bruce Fisher (Nov 24, 2007)

I like how you numbered your possible areas... makes it easier to refer to. Good thinking...


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## KASR (Jun 9, 2009)

Bruce Fisher said:


> I like how you numbered your possible areas... makes it easier to refer to. Good thinking...


I try. 



Bpape said:


> ...broadband bass treatments....


Hey Bryan - just to clarify. You are taking panels here and not a bass trap, correct? From my understanding, bass traps do little for anything other than low, low frequencies.


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## KASR (Jun 9, 2009)

Ok, so this is the plan - does everything look right?


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## chas (Jan 28, 2007)

When Bryan said "above the tv" I thought he was referring to the wall behind the tv and not the ceiling (but I could be mistaken!).


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## KASR (Jun 9, 2009)

chas said:


> When Bryan said "above the tv" I thought he was referring to the wall behind the tv and not the ceiling (but I could be mistaken!).


He could have meant that and at first I thought he did...but he used the words over and not behind, so I went for the literal interpretation! LOL! Waiting for him to chime in.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

One other suggestion for you Aaron, Move your seating forward about another foot to allow for better coverage of the rear surround speakers.


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## KASR (Jun 9, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> One other suggestion for you Aaron, Move your seating forward about another foot to allow for better coverage of the rear surround speakers.


I'm totally going to do that: I am thinking about building a riser behind the theater seats and placing a tall round table with two high back barstools - kinda set up an eating area, so we won't have food on the theater seats....that would be a "no no".


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

KASR said:


> I try.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Bryan - just to clarify. You are taking panels here and not a bass trap, correct? From my understanding, bass traps do little for anything other than low, low frequencies.


Panels on the walls - yes. In the corners, the thicker and fuller the better. Triangular chunks work great. They'll work from the subwoofer range fully up to around 400Hz or so and then start rolling off to about 50% effective by design

Over the TV, yes, I meant on the front wall.

Bryan


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## chas (Jan 28, 2007)

Did you get your plans finalized Aaron? Keep us posted as things progress...


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## KASR (Jun 9, 2009)

chas said:


> Did you get your plans finalized Aaron? Keep us posted as things progress...


Yea, i think I got the master plan - although I'm deciding on which will come first - the riser or the panels.  I implemented an upgrade last week - new center channel. Made a HUGE difference.


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## chas (Jan 28, 2007)

KASR said:


> Yea, i think I got the master plan - although I'm deciding on which will come first - the riser or the panels.  I implemented an upgrade last week - new center channel. Made a HUGE difference.


The CS1? What were you using before?


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## KASR (Jun 9, 2009)

chas said:


> The CS1? What were you using before?


RM6750 center


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## Tonmeister (Mar 8, 2009)

Hello KASR
hello all around,

to get a serious imaging of sound in a 5.1 surround setup, it is necessary to have a close look at the angles between the speakers referring to the listening position(s). This is called the ITU-R 5.1 setup.

So, easiest ist the center speaker, which we define in 0° degree position.

Then left front and right front has to be in +30° degree and -30° degree angle (Basic is 360° degree full circle). So to deliver with this, you have to get front speakers and listening area closer together.

Last the rear speakers has to be in +/- 100°...120° degrees angle to the center. So you have to move them from the corners to the side walls.

Please notice the attached reference loudspeaker positioning picture!
r => radius of circle
B => distance between left front and right front speakers

I suggest, to get the rear speakers in +/- 120° degree angle.

Yours
Olaf G. Guenther
(master of sound engineering)


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## cavchameleon (Jan 7, 2008)

This is an informative thread! Bryan, thanks for sharing your knowledge, very helpful. Nice room KASR, do you have any updated pics with treatment (like your drawing, really helps visualize).


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## KASR (Jun 9, 2009)

Olaf - yea, I've got that diagram as well and I have to admit, I just hate moving all the speakers in the traffic area - when you have 5 kids all under the age of 12, you have a habit of pushing all the valuables up against the wall! LOL! 
But do not despair - I am planning to moving the speakers around to accommodate the "sweet spot" when I get the riser and eating space setup.

No treatments in place yet - still hammering out the finances...err.....details!


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## cavchameleon (Jan 7, 2008)

KASR said:


> Olaf - yea, I've got that diagram as well and I have to admit, I just hate moving all the speakers in the traffic area - when you have 5 kids all under the age of 12, you have a habit of pushing all the valuables up against the wall! LOL!
> But do not despair - I am planning to moving the speakers around to accommodate the "sweet spot" when I get the riser and eating space setup.
> 
> No treatments in place yet - still hammering out the finances...err.....details!


Yep, thing get moved up against the walls and UP higher out of reach (3 year old - he's learned to use objects/back-scratchers to increase reach). I've also had to put grills back onto the speakers (like them better off) as not to have the dust caps pushed in by little hands.

Unfortunately finances always factor in, at least for most of us! I still need more treatment, but am also discerning where funding should be spent...


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