# I was a cable atheist



## FargateOne

Well,
My receiver was connected in a surge protection bar. 
I connect it in the wall outlet and the sound changed a lot.
I went to my home theater store only to buy an heavy duty hand made outlet for 30$ instead of the 2,50$ I had.
I went out with a power cable (6 feet) and a power bar (8 outlets no filters, no surge protection, no tricks neither bla bla) hand made by a company in my area.
"If it does not improve the sound, send it back. No problem" said my fellow councellor. !
I changed the outlet, checked the polarity, connect the cable, the multi-outlets bar, the receiver, etc....
I ran all my cd and blu-ray that I always choose for listening tests...
twice...three times
I did not believe it. Bass, medium and high fr cleaner, Sound Stage Image all better than what YPAO did when I had my Yamaha.
In one word: incredible
To rate the benefit I would say 50% improvement for more or less 500$US.
I did new measurements with REW. Some little changes in EQ filters setted manually. 
A lot of fun to listen music. And Star-Trek Into The darkness: Wow.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated

Truly - and literally - incroyable!


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## FargateOne

eljay said:


> Truly - and literally - incroyable!


After an other 2 hours to listen music, here is the math:

3 + 1.1= 8

(receiver:3k$/outlet,cable to power bar, cable to receiver: 1.1k$)

I do not know how a 8k$ receiver or separate pre-amp and amp of 8k$ sounds but I am sure that I no longer have a 4.1k$ connected receiver! Way up better. 

Incroyable? You bet!


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## chashint

FargateOne said:


> After an other 2 hours to listen music, here is the math: 3 + 1.1= 8 (receiver:3k$/outlet,cable to power bar, cable to receiver: 1.1k$) I do not know how a 8k$ receiver or separate pre-amp and amp of 8k$ sounds but I am sure that I no longer have a 4.1k$ connected receiver! Way up better. Incroyable? You bet!


Are you saying you spent $1.1k for a new outlet and power cable??


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## FargateOne

chashint said:


> Are you saying you spent $1.1k for a new outlet and power cable??


please !
3 power cables (2 m each) , 1 outlet and a 8 outlets power bar
CANADIAN $...I know not real monney !


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## lcaillo

I remain a cable agnostic.


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## willis7469

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chashint

FargateOne said:


> please ! 3 power cables (2 m each) , 1 outlet and a 8 outlets power bar CANADIAN $...I know not real monney !


So it was $1.1k Canadian for the 3 cables, outlet, and power bar ?


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## FargateOne

chashint said:


> So it was $1.1k Canadian for the 3 cables, outlet, and power bar ?


20 bucks for the oulet and approx 300 each for the rest but, like Icaillo said in an other thread, maybe I had good pratice except for good shielded cable and reasonnably wire dress. When I added this, I received the benefits of the other part.
This beeing said, I do not want to convince. I want to share my astonishment hopefully for real stuff instead of a fruit of my imagination.
BTW, this week-end, I will unplug the new cables ( there are in since one week) and plug the old stuff to see ...


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## 3dbinCanada

*I still am a cable athiest*

I don't mean anyy disrespect,,, I honestly think that your brain is fooling you into to believing you here better sound because you know you have purchased it and installed the outlet. A blind listening test would be very difficult to setup in this case but it would point out that there would be no difference in sound. Logically speaking, how can an outlet (unless it provides some incredible filtering capabilities for both RF and electrically) cure the mess behind it that its attached too. :dontknow:


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## FargateOne

*Re: I still am a cable athiest*



3dbinCanada said:


> I don't mean anyy disrespect,,, I honestly think that your brain is fooling you into to believing you here better sound because you know you have purchased it and installed the outlet. A blind listening test would be very difficult to setup in this case but it would point out that there would be no difference in sound. Logically speaking, how can an outlet (unless it provides some incredible filtering capabilities for both RF and electrically) cure the mess behind it that its attached too. :dontknow:


The outlet, the cables and the 8 outlets power bar...I know...not logical.
...:blink::devil:but there is a difference. Like I said, I will reverse things this week-end and maybe hear reason. ... ... ... I hear you (without outlet nor cables !!)... smiling..."poor guy, then his brain will really mess up with him because he will desperatly want subconsciously find a way to convince himself that he made the right move "

Well, I'll tell you a secret;all is in consignment for the moment and I am free to send it back. 

But, I will be frank: in any case, I will keep the 20$ outlet in the wall because I am too lazy to put it out. :sad:

:grin2:


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## RTS100x5

My Pangea 9g power cord did lower the noise floor at high volume and an improved bass response...

I leave skeptics to scoff.... thats usually what they're good at...:R


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## Lumen

I position my water-hose style cables so their gravitational influence bends space-time around the speaker coils. :nerd:


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## FargateOne

Lumen said:


> I position my water-hose style cables so their gravitational influence bends space-time around the speaker coils. :nerd:


Don't laugh, Caltech and Ligo recently prooved the existence of gravitationnal waves you know !:R


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## Lumen

Sorry. I couldn't resist. 
I'm glad you like your cables!

My journey is opposite yours - I used to believe high end cables made all the difference. I now believe that after a certain threshold of competent design and build, improvements are mainly perceived. In other words, your mind creates a difference because it needs to justify one after spending big bucks. Cable appearance as "audio jewelry" also comes into play. It's analogous to my personal listening experience with a dirty system versus a clean one. The clean, shiny system always sounded better to me. I also have a better experience driving my car when it's clean. 

I'm not saying you're wrong because you don't have the same experience. I'm just asking you to recognize the pitfalls of the snake-oil associated with cable pseudo-science.


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## AudiocRaver

*Re: I still am a cable athiest*



FargateOne said:


> The outlet, the cables and the 8 outlets power bar...I know...not logical.
> ...:blink::devil:but there is a difference. Like I said, I will reverse things this week-end and maybe hear reason. ... ... ... I hear you (without outlet nor cables !!)... smiling..."poor guy, then his brain will really mess up with him because he will desperatly want subconsciously find a way to convince himself that he made the right move "


All due respect... Prove it.



> But, I will be frank: in any case, I will keep the 20$ outlet in the wall because I am too lazy to put it out. :sad:
> 
> :grin2:


THAT part makes sense!


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## 3dbinCanada

*Re: I still am a cable athiest*



FargateOne said:


> But, I will be frank: in any case, I will keep the 20$ outlet in the wall because I am too lazy to put it out. :sad:
> 
> :grin2:


Yeah, I would do the same if I were you.


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## AudiocRaver

*Re: I still am a cable athiest*



AudiocRaver said:


> All due respect... Prove it.


To be more specific, you might have gotten improvement by simply changing the layout of your power distribution and eliminating or reducing the area of a ground loop, for instance, and the specific equipment used might have had little to do with it.

Understanding and controlling variables is an important element in evaluating system changes, and is usually paid little or no attention. That is why most anecdotal examples like yours are considered suspect.

Having said all that... The main thing is that you are happy. Enjoy!!!


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## FargateOne

*Re: I still am a cable athiest*



AudiocRaver said:


> To be more specific, you might have gotten improvement by simply changing the layout of your power distribution and eliminating or reducing the area of a ground loop, for instance, and the specific equipment used might have had little to do with it.
> 
> Understanding and controlling variables is an important element in evaluating system changes, and is usually paid little or no attention. That is why most anecdotal examples like yours are considered suspect.
> 
> Having said all that... The main thing is that you are happy. Enjoy!!!


Thanks. The "prove it" was a little bit surprising. I am not a scientific.


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## Talley

Here is my take. Manufactures like Belden offer great cabling at wonderful pricing. I'm in the works right now to test some high end cables ($1500 for 5 xlr cables 3' long... brand will not mention) but I also am in the works to build my own xlr cables from inexpensive Belden 1353a unshielded twisted cat5e bonded pair. 500' can be purchased for $62... plus the xlr ends.

I'm actually hoping the inexpensive belden performs better. I trust belden. I use belden brilliance cable for my speakers without any issues. We use belden alot in the industry for good reason. Our signalling is 4-20ma. Pretty sensitive stuff.


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## FargateOne

*Re: I still am a cable athiest*



AudiocRaver said:


> (...)
> Understanding and controlling variables is an important element in evaluating system changes, and is usually paid little or no attention. That is why most anecdotal examples like yours are considered suspect.
> 
> (...)


I do not want to argue or to convince just to...talk!.

"Understanding": I have limited understanding of electricity because it is not my area of expertise. "Controling the variable", that I understand and I can do into reasonnable (not scientifical) limits. 

And I concede it, controling varaibles was not perfect in my case of course. 

First I get rid of the surge protector and connected the receiver directly in the standard outlet: big change and totally unintended and unexpected. 
The results are there and can be repeated. I put back the surge protector as before and I have lost dynamic for one thing

After that, what I added also made also changes ( many things that I can't describe because lacking of the vocabulary in english) for me. 

By the way I do not read the prose from cable productors or reviewers in magazine because I think that it is du blabla.

What I believe is that there are 1)basic quality so-so standard cables and 2) good cables that are better (maybe something like Taley suggests) and 3) snake oil. For ignorant like me, we only have our ears and our reason to find how much to pay for good cables. 

I am not an economist.
But I can do a kind of approximation to reassure myself in my lunacy !:coocoo:

Taley says Belden 500 feet for 62$. OK. If I do not have the tools nor the skills to put the parts together in a professionnal way, I must to pay for the guy who does that for me: cost of raw material times 2 = 7$-10$. Then I add the mark-up for all intermidiaries = 10$. Because cables are jewellery add 30$ for the look and the marketting. Add for esoteric believes like cryo treatment and pre burning stupidities, let say an other 40$ (this is an important part because our brain needs a reason to trick us) = more or less 100$ is the cost to the dealer. His mark-up, in this case he knows that there is a lot of fishes willing to grab the bate, let us say that he takes 100% margin which maybe gives us a retail price in the dealer store between of 200isch$ per cable. Plus paper money canadian dollar value add (snif) 40,00= 250-300$ can.

So reasonnable retail price for a good cable 100,00$?:nerd: At 300,00$ we have esoteric-good-cable-for-lunatics-no-more-cable-atheists like me!:x


Above that, I saw on the internet a 1m AC cable for 15 000,00$...USdollars...I was tempted:devil:addle:


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## Nodrog

*Re: I still am a cable athiest*

I still am a cable atheist - however, I do believe cable connections can cause audible differences. Just disconnecting and reconnecting everything sometimes makes a big difference, especially RCA cables. I have also seen AC sockets and cheap power strips that make poor AC connections. This could explain some of the differences when people change cables.


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## witchdoctor

Congratulations on making a wise decision. The three components of a great system is the room structure, the components and the power. Power runs from the wall all the way to the components and your system is only as good as the weakest link. I always recommend starting with the outlet and working your way out from there. For the engineers in the crowd who say you can't change the miles of wire coming from the power station I say I filter the water coming out of my tap so why not filter the power coming out of the wall? You will find the results continue to improve over time. For everyone demanding proof just use a company with a 30 day return policy and audition it in your own system. If you don't get the "proof" you want send it back for a refund. Enjoy


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## witchdoctor

*Re: I still am a cable athiest*

Cable connections do make a difference, try using Caigs Deoxit or Silclear on your connections.


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## AudiocRaver

*Re: I still am a cable athiest*



FargateOne said:


> Thanks. The "prove it" was a little bit surprising. I am not a scientific.


I disagree. All here are engaged in a high-tech hobby in a high-tech world, and we would not be having this conversation if we were not proficient with technology and techniques for setting up, analyzing, and improving complex systems. That makes us all "scientific" enough for our purposes, if one is simply interested in truth and willing to use his brain - as you have in the following passages - in a truthful and thoughtful way.



FargateOne said:


> I do not want to argue or to convince just to...talk!.
> 
> "Understanding": I have limited understanding of electricity because it is not my area of expertise. "Controling the variable", that I understand and I can do into reasonnable (not scientifical) limits.
> 
> And I concede it, controling varaibles was not perfect in my case of course.
> 
> First I get rid of the surge protector and connected the receiver directly in the standard outlet: big change and totally unintended and unexpected.
> The results are there and can be repeated. I put back the surge protector as before and I have lost dynamic for one thing
> 
> After that, what I added also made also changes ( many things that I can't describe because lacking of the vocabulary in english) for me.
> 
> By the way I do not read the prose from cable productors or reviewers in magazine because I think that it is du blabla.
> 
> What I believe is that there are 1)basic quality so-so standard cables and 2) good cables that are better (maybe something like Taley suggests) and 3) snake oil. For ignorant like me, we only have our ears and our reason to find how much to pay for good cables.
> 
> I am not an economist.
> But I can do a kind of approximation to reassure myself in my lunacy !:coocoo:


You have done well. Thank you for the details. You started with the first critical questions: "Did I really hear a difference? How can I be sure?"

You then reversed your change process to see if the supposed improvement then goes away.

Then you compared to other similar changes to see if the same improvement might be accomplished in a different way.

You have done your due diligence very well. You went looking for the best evidence you could find with a relatively simple approach. Some listeners seem to have no interest in even simple evidence.



> Taley says Belden 500 feet for 62$. OK. If I do not have the tools nor the skills to put the parts together in a professionnal way, I must to pay for the guy who does that for me: cost of raw material times 2 = 7$-10$. Then I add the mark-up for all intermidiaries = 10$. Because cables are jewellery add 30$ for the look and the marketting. Add for esoteric believes like cryo treatment and pre burning stupidities, let say an other 40$ (this is an important part because our brain needs a reason to trick us) = more or less 100$ is the cost to the dealer. His mark-up, in this case he knows that there is a lot of fishes willing to grab the bate, let us say that he takes 100% margin which maybe gives us a retail price in the dealer store between of 200isch$ per cable. Plus paper money canadian dollar value add (snif) 40,00= 250-300$ can.
> 
> So reasonnable retail price for a good cable 100,00$?:nerd: At 300,00$ we have esoteric-good-cable-for-lunatics-no-more-cable-atheists like me!:x
> 
> 
> Above that, I saw on the internet a 1m AC cable for 15 000,00$...USdollars...I was tempted:devil:addle:


Just keep using your head as you make those changes, not just ears and imagination as others tend to, and you will do fine.


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## witchdoctor

Try the Cable Company, they will loan you cables for testing making it very easy. Make sure you try Audioquest Colombia and Mapleshade Excalibur in your shootout.


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## witchdoctor

*Re: I still am a cable athiest*

What type of proof do you require? If you want proof simply ask the vendor for it, they will either send you the measurements, a set of cables to audition at home that you can return or both.


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## AudiocRaver

witchdoctor: Thanks for the info. It might be interesting to put together a cable shootout with a listening panel.


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## witchdoctor

AudiocRaver said:


> witchdoctor: Thanks for the info. It might be interesting to put together a cable shootout with a listening panel.


I have done that before with a group of fellow hobbyists. Everyone brought their favorite cables and someone then switched them out without us knowing which is which. Everyone heard a difference between cables and our votes about which was best were pretty much in agreement. Most of all it was a great way to spend an afternoon with friends.:smile:


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## Talley

I think it all boils down to cables having an effect on ground voltage which is audible.


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## FargateOne

Talley said:


> I think it all boils down to cables having an effect on ground voltage which is audible.


In electricity for audio gears I mostly have feelings. Amp. , receiver, bluray player all have power supplies to transform AC in DC. The "effect" of a good cable stops there. So is it possible that a good cable "helps" the power supply to do more correctly is job of transforming the current before to send it into the circuits?:sweat:
Don't shoot !


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## Talley

FargateOne said:


> In electricity for audio gears I mostly have feelings. Amp. , receiver, bluray player all have power supplies to transform AC in DC. The "effect" of a good cable stops there. So is it possible that a good cable "helps" the power supply to do more correctly is job of transforming the current before to send it into the circuits?:sweat:
> Don't shoot !


Nah... it's mostly the grounding.


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## witchdoctor

Talley said:


> Nah... it's mostly the grounding.


Grounding white paper

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf


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## Talley

witchdoctor said:


> Grounding white paper
> 
> http://audiosystemsgroup.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf


Not the greatest white paper. Pretty standard stuff in the teachings of the electrical trade.


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## witchdoctor

Talley said:


> Not the greatest white paper. Pretty standard stuff in the teachings of the electrical trade.


I know but most of the other stuff out there comes from vendors. You are spot on about grounding. I live in a condo and can't rewire the place and am thinking about auditioning the Nordost QBase or the QLine ground wire:

http://nordost.com/downloads/multiLanguage/2015QRT Brochure_English.pdf

Nordost acquired Quantum Products which developed this tech and I really liked the Quantum power conditioner years ago.


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## FargateOne

Talley said:


> Nah... it's mostly the grounding.


Maybe this will help. I have made today this experiment.
My receiver comes with a big heavy 3 wires cable (3 pins male end, 3 holes IEC end) . On it it is printed: ES90165-D SST 3x2,03mm (14awg) 300V Well Shin.

My Cambridge bluray player comes with a little flat thin 2 wires cable (2 pins an 2 holes on the IEC end).

I thought: "Bigger should be better.""
I connected the bluray with the receiver cable.
I watch a dvd. The image was bad even my wife (!!!) noticed it..
I playback a cd. Treeble-treeble-treeble, high fr: bad bad bad.

I reversed everything and the image and the sound returned good (more bass, better medium less high fr).

A 2 wires cable does not have a ground isn't it ?


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## Talley

FargateOne said:


> Maybe this will help. I have mad today this experiment.
> My receiver comes with a big havy 3 wires cable (3 pins male end, 3 holes IEC end) . On it it is printed: ES90165-D SST 3x2,03mm (14awg) 300V Well Shin.
> 
> My Cambridge bluray player comes with a little flat thin 2 wires cable (2 pins an 2 hole on the IEC end).
> 
> I thought: Bigger is better.
> I connected the bluray with the receiver cable.
> I watch a dvd. The image was bad even my wife (!!!) noticed it..
> I playback a cd. Treeble-treeble-treeble, high fr: bad bad bad.
> 
> I reversed everything and the image and the sound returned good (more bass, better medium less high fr).
> 
> A 2 wires cable does not have a ground isn't it ?


depends... it's not size though. You can have two prong devices and three but depending on cable type interconnecting the two tells you the tales of ground voltage between the two.


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## AudiocRaver

FargateOne said:


> Maybe this will help. I have mad today this experiment.
> My receiver comes with a big havy 3 wires cable (3 pins male end, 3 holes IEC end) . On it it is printed: ES90165-D SST 3x2,03mm (14awg) 300V Well Shin.
> 
> My Cambridge bluray player comes with a little flat thin 2 wires cable (2 pins an 2 hole on the IEC end).
> 
> I thought: Bigger is better.
> I connected the bluray with the receiver cable.
> I watch a dvd. The image was bad even my wife (!!!) noticed it..
> I playback a cd. Treeble-treeble-treeble, high fr: bad bad bad.
> 
> I reversed everything and the image and the sound returned good (more bass, better medium less high fr).
> 
> A 2 wires cable does not have a ground isn't it ?


I am confused. The connector types at the equipment end (blyray, receiver) are different. How could you interchange them?


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## FargateOne

The connector types at the equipment end (blyray, receiver) have the same shape but not the same number of copper rod(?) pin(?).
The IEC connection of each cable are the same shape: standard shape like a flat rectangle with a bump in the middle of the long upper side. The third pin of a 3 wires cable (the ground?) is in this bump. In a cable with only 2 wires (like the Cambridge 752 bdt ) the bump is there but without the pin so it fits into the connection of the gear.
These sort of 2 wires cable are not uncommon, in my experience.


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## AudiocRaver

FargateOne said:


> The connector types at the equipment end (blyray, receiver) have the same shape but not the same number of copper rod(?) pin(?).
> The IEC connection of each cable are the same shape: standard shape like a flat rectangle with a bump in the middle of the long upper side. The third pin of a 3 wires cable (the ground?) is in this bump. In a cable with only 2 wires (like the Cambridge 752 bdt ) the bump is there but without the pin so it fits into the connection of the gear.
> These sort of 2 wires cable are not uncommon, in my experience.


Beg pardon, now I see, thanks for the explanation.

At first glance, I probably agree with Talley that grounding issues are involved.

I tend to also agree with other posters, that audible cable differences are usually "bordering on not working" effects, not subtle. The difference you describe sounds pretty drastic, like a system on the edge of not working at all, or working very poorly at best.


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## 3dbinCanada

witchdoctor said:


> Congratulations on making a wise decision. The three components of a great system is the room structure, the components and the power. Power runs from the wall all the way to the components and your system is only as good as the weakest link. I always recommend starting with the outlet and working your way out from there. For the engineers in the crowd who say you can't change the miles of wire coming from the power station I say I filter the water coming out of my tap so why not filter the power coming out of the wall? You will find the results continue to improve over time. For everyone demanding proof just use a company with a 30 day return policy and audition it in your own system. If you don't get the "proof" you want send it back for a refund. Enjoy


I'm an engineer in that crowd and unless there is real filtering being applied to a socket, then what is experienced is the placebo affect of having spent the money and the mind compensating, altering the reality towards a change in improved sound. Things don't change out of thin air. There is always a reason. Bottom line, if there is no filtering of the socket when connecting it to the grid, then their is NO improved sound. Its like repeating the same sequence and expecting a different result.


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## 3dbinCanada

Talley said:


> I think it all boils down to cables having an effect on ground voltage which is audible.


Ground voltage only rears its ugly head under two conditions, 1) poor quality cables ( I don't mean non esoteric... I mean cables that are in poor physical shape with lots of oxididation, and or becomming brittle) and 2) wiring so that you produce ground loops.


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## FargateOne

3dbinCanada said:


> Ground voltage only rears its ugly head under two conditions, 1) poor quality cables ( I don't mean non esoteric... I mean cables that are in poor physical shape with lots of oxididation, and or becomming brittle) and 2) wiring so that you produce ground loops.


Question from a no-scientist
If I had a ground loops caused by wiring, I should have heard a hummm isn't it ?


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## witchdoctor

3dbinCanada said:


> I'm an engineer in that crowd and unless there is real filtering being applied to a socket, then what is experienced is the placebo affect of having spent the money and the mind compensating, altering the reality towards a change in improved sound. Things don't change out of thin air. There is always a reason. Bottom line, if there is no filtering of the socket when connecting it to the grid, then their is NO improved sound. Its like repeating the same sequence and expecting a different result.


OK, here is the socket I use. Relatively inexpensive and I can't predict how it will work for anyone else. I can only share it provided a nice upgrade in my system. 

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Ultra-Minimalist-Duplex-AC-Outlet/productinfo/ACOUTLET-CL/

If it didn't improve my SQ I would have sent it back for a refund.


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## tonyvdb

witchdoctor said:


> OK, here is the socket I use. Relatively inexpensive and I can't predict how it will work for anyone else. I can only share it provided a nice upgrade in my system.
> 
> http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Ultra-Minimalist-Duplex-AC-Outlet/productinfo/ACOUTLET-CL/
> 
> If it didn't improve my SQ I would have sent it back for a refund.


Im not even sure that meets UL or CSA standards? :nerd2:


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## Medi0gre

My insurance adjuster would love these, oh my. 

6. For the fanatical perfectionist ; even better, get rid of the in-wall box (metal or plastic) entirely. If you undertake b), you will need to provide some kind of wood mounting strips for the faceplate screws.


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## willis7469

Just followed the link and read the product description, and reviews. Wow...
The second reviewer finished by saying basically, loosening the faceplate screws could possibly open the sound up even more.(really?) If there are perceived differences to users of these, good for you, money well well spent. Now where's my screwdriver? I've got some plates to remove...
On the serious side, I would love to see measured results of these in use, if any exist. All I see in the product description is scientific principles that seem to be made up by mapleshade. Like this "• Faceplates: The less metal near the AC outlet, the better the sound." Or, "Contrary to widespread audiophile lore, more contact area does not improve sound; often it degrades sound. Thus, one-sided contacts sound better than two-sided contact clips. Because skin effect increases with conductor thickness, thinner contact strips yield deeper bass and cleaner highs—exactly the same sonic advantages that are observed in our super thin ribbon interconnects."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Locoweed

"And--our Amish-made Ambrosian maple faceplate eliminates the high dielectric absorption losses of plastic faceplates, as well as the high eddy current losses of metal ones."


High dielectric absorption losses of plastic faceplates, as well as the high eddy current losses of metal ones.

I guess I must be under educated, because this is meaningless to me.


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## FargateOne

anybody to answer to my question at post 43 related to post 42?


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## willis7469

FargateOne said:


> anybody to answer to my question at post 43 related to post 42?



Yes I believe you would. It's impossible to guess though how loud or noticeable it would be. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tonyvdb

The efficiency of the speakers also makes a difference as to how much noise you hear. Ground loops can be cause by many things including bad appliances on the same circuit or phase. Old florescent fixtures can also cause hum. 
A poor ground outside on the incoming line will also be bad. 
Newer neighborhoods have less problems with these issues due to the newer electrical codes in place.


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## witchdoctor

tonyvdb said:


> Im not even sure that meets UL or CSA standards? :nerd2:


I have had no problems, I am sure you can call them and find out.


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## witchdoctor

willis7469 said:


> Just followed the link and read the product description, and reviews. Wow...
> The second reviewer finished by saying basically, loosening the faceplate screws could possibly open the sound up even more.(really?) If there are perceived differences to users of these, good for you, money well well spent. Now where's my screwdriver? I've got some plates to remove...
> On the serious side, I would love to see measured results of these in use, if any exist. All I see in the product description is scientific principles that seem to be made up by mapleshade. Like this "• Faceplates: The less metal near the AC outlet, the better the sound." Or, "Contrary to widespread audiophile lore, more contact area does not improve sound; often it degrades sound. Thus, one-sided contacts sound better than two-sided contact clips. Because skin effect increases with conductor thickness, thinner contact strips yield deeper bass and cleaner highs—exactly the same sonic advantages that are observed in our super thin ribbon interconnects."
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have tried the unit and liked it. It is up to you if you decide to try it or not. If not send it back,


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## willis7469

witchdoctor said:


> I have tried the unit and liked it. It is up to you if you decide to try it or not. If not send it back,



Indeed it is up to me. If there was a little less rhetoric in their dubious claims, I might consider it. Just not believable to me, sorry. Especially not for 70 bucks. If that leaves my system and experience to remain pedestrian, then so be it. I also find some "money back guarantees", are in place only because the company hopes the customer won't go through the trouble of sending xyz product back. "Oh well, I already have it hooked up" or some variation.
Glad you are enjoying it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chashint

Like most discussions of cables, speaker wires, and power cords it started out in the deep end of the pool.
The crowd that "believes" always has the fall back position that engineers/scientists don't know what or how to measure the differences they think they hear.
The sellers throw up graphs/measurements displaying electrical differences measured around 1MHz then extrapolate that into pseudo-theory to prove the claims of dynamics, clarity, enhancement.....
If someone thinks $1k+ is better spent on cables and wires vs a (Hsu/SVS/PSA/Rythmik/Outlaw) subwoofer who am I to tell them how to spend their money.
The issue I have with 'cable enthusiasts' is the effect their reviews can have on people that are researching audio gear for the first time.
If cables/wires that come with equipment are not defective (broken, don't work) replacing them out of the box is ridiculous.
Even in a system that costs $10k (all up AVR, speakers, sub) how can a $100+ power cord/speaker wires be justified?
~$100 will buy a Sony BluRay player, or a ROKU, or a universal remote.
I am not opposed to people spending money on bling for their pride and joy, I just wish that is how it was presented.
Car apologies seldom work for audio comparo but we all know how much better the car runs right after it gets a good wash and wax. Of course it runs exactly the same as it did when it was covered in bird poop but it sure feels like it runs better.
Replacing a perfectly good cable provided by the equipment manufacturer with a different one is the audio equivalent to washing the car, it may make you feel good which makes the system sound better, but in reality it is still the same.


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## willis7469

Well Charlie, you need one of these!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tonyvdb

witchdoctor said:


> I have had no problems, I am sure you can call them and find out.


No need to call, there must be a clear UL or CSA stamp on the plug somewhere, if not and I highly doubt it they are illegal and if you have a fire caused by that your insurance wont be valid.


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## AudiocRaver

FargateOne said:


> Question from a no-scientist
> If I had a ground loops caused by wiring, I should have heard a hummm isn't it ?


There are a number of ways that grounding and cabling can contribute to hum and noise in a system. As others have said, it is pretty hard to predict how bad it will be.


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## chashint

willis7469 said:


> Well Charlie, you need one of these!
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


HaHA, I need one that says it subtracts 100lbs and will actually do it.


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## willis7469

chashint said:


> HaHA, I need one that says it subtracts 100lbs and will actually do it.



Rofl! I think we could sell a few if it did work!
For those that don't know, that shirt is a joke inside the aftermarket car parts world, where claims of ridiculous horsepower claims are made to sell upgraded parts. For example, (crazy wacky salesman voice), "our cold air intake will give you 75% more power"!!!! Just like a single sided receptacle connection will tighten my bass, and wake up my crummy old speakers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## witchdoctor

chashint said:


> Like most discussions of cables, speaker wires, and power cords it started out in the deep end of the pool.
> The crowd that "believes" always has the fall back position that engineers/scientists don't know what or how to measure the differences they think they hear.
> The sellers throw up graphs/measurements displaying electrical differences measured around 1MHz then extrapolate that into pseudo-theory to prove the claims of dynamics, clarity, enhancement.....
> If someone thinks $1k+ is better spent on cables and wires vs a (Hsu/SVS/PSA/Rythmik/Outlaw) subwoofer who am I to tell them how to spend their money.
> The issue I have with 'cable enthusiasts' is the effect their reviews can have on people that are researching audio gear for the first time.
> If cables/wires that come with equipment are not defective (broken, don't work) replacing them out of the box is ridiculous.
> Even in a system that costs $10k (all up AVR, speakers, sub) how can a $100+ power cord/speaker wires be justified?
> ~$100 will buy a Sony BluRay player, or a ROKU, or a universal remote.
> I am not opposed to people spending money on bling for their pride and joy, I just wish that is how it was presented.
> Car apologies seldom work for audio comparo but we all know how much better the car runs right after it gets a good wash and wax. Of course it runs exactly the same as it did when it was covered in bird poop but it sure feels like it runs better.
> Replacing a perfectly good cable provided by the equipment manufacturer with a different one is the audio equivalent to washing the car, it may make you feel good which makes the system sound better, but in reality it is still the same.


The issue you have with "cable enthusiasts" can be applied to any component and is not limited to cables. I like to use reviews as a way to narrow my shopping list but not as gospel. I happen to love gear made by Sunfire and have seen both bad reviews and good reviews. That doesn't mean any reviewer was right or wrong, maybe they just had different taste. Some people say all amps sound the same, some prefer tubes, etc. I wouldn't blame a reviewer because we don't agree. 
I will tell you how a $100 power cord can be justified. When it makes a $1000 component sound like a component worth more than $1100. Remember this is all subjective stuff and as long as you have a refund policy you won't get burned. 
I don't know what a "perfectly" good cable sounds like. I only try to find cables that improve on stock cables. Some manufacturers build components using high end cables, check out Wilson Speakers. As for spending money I found that using high quality cables saves me money as I can get better performance from my current gear instead of buying new gear. 
However my hearing and system are both sensitive enough to detect these differences. You can view my systems on my profile. YMMV.


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## witchdoctor

Locoweed said:


> "And--our Amish-made Ambrosian maple faceplate eliminates the high dielectric absorption losses of plastic faceplates, as well as the high eddy current losses of metal ones."
> 
> 
> High dielectric absorption losses of plastic faceplates, as well as the high eddy current losses of metal ones.
> 
> I guess I must be under educated, because this is meaningless to me.


Well, I can't comment on eddy current losses, all I can say is that in my system everything just sounds clearer, sort of like when you upgrade a DAC, I simply hear more of what was present in the recording. It is not like a tone control, it is just making everything sound closer to live music. How much of this is due to the faceplate I cannot say. :smile:


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## witchdoctor

tonyvdb said:


> No need to call, there must be a clear UL or CSA stamp on the plug somewhere, if not and I highly doubt it they are illegal and if you have a fire caused by that your insurance wont be valid.


I detect a small UL stamp on the back of the plug but you would need to ask to be sure.


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## NBPk402

tonyvdb said:


> No need to call, there must be a clear UL or CSA stamp on the plug somewhere, if not and I highly doubt it they are illegal and if you have a fire caused by that your insurance wont be valid.


 One thing to remember is that if a product is UL Certified, and you change the power cord to any other power cord the product is no longer UL Certified. This goes for any product that is UL Certified...if it is modified it is no longer UL Certified (an example is a CPU fan... if a heat sink is added after certification it is no longer certified as UL Compliant). I learned this when I was attending UL classes for Trademark Enforcement.


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## Talley

ellisr63 said:


> One thing to remember is that if a product is UL Certified, and you change the power cord to any other power cord the product is no longer UL Certified. This goes for any product that is UL Certified...if it is modified it is no longer UL Certified (an example is a CPU fan... if a heat sink is added after certification it is no longer certified as UL Compliant). I learned this when I was attending UL classes for Trademark Enforcement.


For a piece of equipment that has a removable cord you can safely replace that and the device not lose it's UL listing. The cord is separate.


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## NBPk402

Talley said:


> For a piece of equipment that has a removable cord you can safely replace that and the device not lose it's UL listing. The cord is separate.


Sorry Talley, but that is not correct... UL certification is only valid when the product is exactly the way it was when it was certified. My specialty was Trademark Enforcement for over 10 years, and I seized millions of dollars of merchandise on behalf of UL.

This doesn't mean that it is not safe...it just means that the AVR (or whatever the product is) is not UL certified as a unit anymore since the original power cord has been changed. You are not losing the UL certification of the power cord, but of the complete AVR.


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## Savjac

ellisr63 said:


> Sorry Talley, but that is not correct... UL certification is only valid when the product is exactly the way it was when it was certified. My specialty was Trademark Enforcement for over 10 years, and I seized millions of dollars of merchandise on behalf of UL.
> 
> This doesn't mean that it is not safe...it just means that the AVR (or whatever the product is) is not UL certified as a unit anymore since the original power cord has been changed. You are not losing the UL certification of the power cord, but of the complete AVR.


I am thinking that Ellis is the very definition of an expert on this matter. Thank You Ellis for this info.


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## John Stewart

ellisr63 said:


> This doesn't mean that it is not safe...


Fair to edit as doesn't NECESSARILY mean unsafe. Just no longer tested by UL as being so?

Same logic applies to using a separate UL listed breaker in different manufacturers panel whereby even if it fits the combination is no longer UL certified?

I'm not an expert, that's why I'm asking.


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## NBPk402

John Stewart said:


> Fair to edit as doesn't NECESSARILY mean unsafe. Just no longer tested by UL as being so?
> 
> Same logic applies to using a separate UL listed breaker in different manufacturers panel whereby even if it fits the combination is no longer UL certified?
> 
> I'm not an expert, that's why I'm asking.


I have not dealt with electrical panels in my UL Trademark training. My Training was strictly on electronics with UL Certification. One example we seized was UL Certified CPU cooling fans... If we got a CPU cooling fan with a heat sink on it we would have to check with UL to see if it was UL certified with the heat sink or not. UL would look at their certification list and check to see if it was Certified with the heat sink, and if it wasn't it was seized in violation of their Trademark. I brought this up to let people know the UL Certification is as a complete unit in a lot of cases, and it was mentioned that an Insurance Company will not pay out if a product was not UL Certified (which I am not sure an Insurance Company would go to that level of examination for a claim). I would hope that they would just pay the claim...if it was a fire, and the cables burned, how would they even know if it was UL Certified or not?


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## Philm63

ellisr63 said:


> I have not dealt with electrical panels in my UL Trademark training. My Training was strictly on electronics with UL Certification. One example we seized was UL Certified CPU cooling fans... If we got a CPU cooling fan with a heat sink on it we would have to check with UL to see if it was UL certified with the heat sink or not. UL would look at their certification list and check to see if it was Certified with the heat sink, and if it wasn't it was seized in violation of their Trademark. I brought this up to let people know the UL Certification is as a complete unit in a lot of cases, and it was mentioned that an Insurance Company will not pay out if a product was not UL Certified (which I am not sure an Insurance Company would go to that level of examination for a claim). I would hope that they would just pay the claim...if it was a fire, and the cables burned, how would they even know if it was UL Certified or not?


Quick and easy answer for panels is yes; a qualified electrician can add or replace a breaker in your electrical panel without voiding the panel's certification. The typical circuit breakers used in your house are usually certified (Listed) to the UL standard for Molded-Case Circuit Breakers. The panelboard is usually certified to the applicable UL standard for that type of panelbaord, and will accept any Listed breaker that fits (there are only a few variations on residential breakers and the panels have been configured to only accept types that are suitable for that particular panel per the UL standard). 

WARNING - ONLY A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN SHOULD ADD/REPLACE BREAKERS IN YOUR ELECTRICAL PANEL.

Regarding the power cord issue; ellisr63 makes a good point; how can one know if a particular power cord was covered in the certification report, and thus could be replaced with any Listed/Certified power cord having suitable ratings? When replacing a power cord with one of those (IEC 60320) "appliance Inlet type" connectors that so many appliances have now, you are _usually_ good to go as long as it is a Listed/Certified cord set having the required ratings for your appliance. You're taking a chance, though, as again, unless the instructions tell you exactly what type and rating of power cord you may use, you're safer using the one that came with the unit. If it needs replacing, the manufacturer should be able to help you.


----------



## Lumen

chashint said:


> The issue I have with 'cable enthusiasts' is the effect their reviews can have on people that are researching audio gear for the first time
> .
> .
> I am not opposed to people spending money on bling for their pride and joy, I just wish that is how it was presented.


I've often come across graduated-expenditure recommendations. Cable enthusiasts seem to have adopted a general spending rule of 10-15% entire system cost: "Well if my system costs $10,000 then it deserves at least $1000 worth of cables!" Such advice is a disservice to the fledgling HT enthusiast. While cabling might make a difference under some circumstances in some systems for some people, it is hardly the go-to panacea leading to audio/visual nirvana. Cables certainly don't lend themselves well to the night-and-day improvements purported by said reviewers. I believed in high-end cables until I discovered what appeared to be regular Monster Cable type wiring inside my Revel Salons - a well respected, highly engineered and "voiced" design!



witchdoctor said:


> I don't know what a "perfectly" good cable sounds like. I only try to find cables that improve on stock cables. Some manufacturers build components using high end cables, check out Wilson Speakers. As for spending money I found that using high quality cables saves me money as I can get better performance from my current gear instead of buying new gear.
> However my hearing and system are both sensitive enough to detect these differences. You can view my systems on my profile. YMMV.


See above  
My hearing and (2ch / alternate) system are also quite sensitive to all manner of detail and change. Since my "enlightenment," it remains as pleasing and revealing as ever; but I'm now unburdened with cable obsessions which have turned from a distraction (how do these different sounds compare) into an absorption (what wonderfully sounding music).


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## witchdoctor

Lumen said:


> I've often come across graduated-expenditure recommendations. Cable enthusiasts seem to have adopted a general spending rule of 10-15% entire system cost: "Well if my system costs $10,000 then it deserves at least $1000 worth of cables!" Such advice is a disservice to the fledgling HT enthusiast. While cabling might make a difference under some circumstances in some systems for some people, it is hardly the go-to panacea leading to audio/visual nirvana. Cables certainly don't lend themselves well to the night-and-day improvements purported by said reviewers. I believed in high-end cables until I discovered what appeared to be regular Monster Cable type wiring inside my Revel Salons - a well respected, highly engineered and "voiced" design!
> 
> 
> See above
> My hearing and (2ch / alternate) system are also quite sensitive to all manner of detail and change. Since my "enlightenment," it remains as pleasing and revealing as ever; but I'm now unburdened with cable obsessions which have turned from a distraction (how do these different sounds compare) into an absorption (what wonderfully sounding music).


That is an interesting example of Revel Speakers of Harman Audio Group. Cables are one of the few things Harman doesn't manufacture so no surprises there. The main thing is you are happy. At some point you just reach a point when hitting play is all you need. I know I could probably boost the performance of my desktop system with better cabling but I still smile when I fire it up and am not rushing out to change things.


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## willis7469

Lou, even though a small part of me wants to believe in the hype, audio jewelry lost its luster to me when I read about Gene DellSalla(Audioholics) using coat hangers against monster 1000 cables. The listeners didn't know that the coat hangers were in use at all until after the test, and they all said the hangers sounded excellent! I've even since seen twisted up tin foil in similar tests. Love it... 


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## witchdoctor

willis7469 said:


> Lou, even though a small part of me wants to believe in the hype, audio jewelry lost its luster to me when I read about Gene DellSalla(Audioholics) using coat hangers against monster 1000 cables. The listeners didn't know that the coat hangers were in use at all until after the test, and they all said the hangers sounded excellent! I've even since seen twisted up tin foil in similar tests. Love it...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can point to many, many, many similar shootouts with the exact opposite results. Not one of these comparisons come to the conclusion that all cables sounded the same:

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=disconnect&x=/html&q=cable+shootout

At the end of the day you need to audition any component yourself and decide.


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## Lumen

Expectation bias >


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## AudiocRaver

witchdoctor said:


> You can point to many, many, many similar shootouts with the exact opposite results. Not one of these comparisons come to the conclusion that all cables sounded the same:
> 
> https://duckduckgo.com/?t=disconnect&x=/html&q=cable+shootout
> 
> At the end of the day you need to audition any component yourself and decide.


Not being a big believer in cables - or in their audibility - I have plenty of them - I believe this is a very sensible answer. As witchdoctor says, you can probably manage to set up a system with coat hangars that sounds terrible. I have been surprised by the results of system changes that "should not have" made a difference, and sometimes missed - initially anyway - changes that did.

At least with cables that are carrying audio signal, effects on system sound are conceivable. Just keep your head on straight and listen for changes. First questions you should ask: "Did I hear a difference?" "How can I be sure I am not fooling myself?"


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## Philm63

It's hard to be objective when it's your own system; you want to believe, it's just human nature.


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## NBPk402

Lumen said:


> Expectation bias >


I agree unless you are dealing with tube preamps, and power amps.


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## witchdoctor

Philm63 said:


> It's hard to be objective when it's your own system; you want to believe, it's just human nature.


Actually if I lay out $$ for an after market cable I don't want to believe, I want to get rocked or I will send it back for a refund. You can blind test pretty easy with interconnects, just use Y splitters and have someone hook one pair up to the DVD input and one set to the CD input without you knowing which is which. You can flip back and forth on the remote and a good cable should improve things a lot, meaning everything just sounds closer to live music. :yikes:


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## Lumen

witchdoctor said:


> You can blind test pretty easy with interconnects, just use Y splitters and have someone hook one pair up to the DVD input and one set to the CD input without you knowing which is which. You can flip back and forth on the remote and a good cable should improve things a lot, meaning everything just sounds closer to live music. :yikes:


Do I understand correctly that you're comparing two different cables fed by two different sources? If so, that's not very scientific. Valid results would better be obtained by changing only one variable at a time. I think if you use that method, then you're much more likely to hear a difference given the mismatched input levels alone. And how would you compensate for the different filter designs in the players' analog output stages? Surely if you can tell cables apart, you can also tell CD/DVD players apart. I must be missing something.


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## willis7469

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## witchdoctor

Lumen said:


> Do I understand correctly that you're comparing two different cables fed by two different sources? If so, that's not very scientific. Valid results would better be obtained by changing only one variable at a time. I think if you use that method, then you're much more likely to hear a difference given the mismatched input levels alone. And how would you compensate for the different filter designs in the players' analog output stages? Surely if you can tell cables apart, you can also tell CD/DVD players apart. I must be missing something.


Actually you use one source, connect the Y splitters at the source and then connect to pre pro.
I am using the remote to switch the inputs on the processor. So let's say my source is DVD player. Connect one Y splitter to the left RCA out and one to the right RCA out. Then you can run two different cable types from one source. You need to slect two different inputs on the processor for switching purposes. If you can't figure it out and want to be ultra scientific you need one of these instead:

http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=271&Itemid=238


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## Lumen

Sorry, but either you're scientific or you're not. There's no "ultra" about it. In any case, the described setup is limited by the splitter quality. How do you propose to limit their influence? 


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## chashint

witchdoctor said:


> Actually you use one source, connect the Y splitters at the source and then connect to pre pro. I am using the remote to switch the inputs on the processor. So let's say my source is DVD player. Connect one Y splitter to the left RCA out and one to the right RCA out. Then you can run two different cable types from one source. You need to slect two different inputs on the processor for switching purposes. If you can't figure it out and want to be ultra scientific you need one of these instead: http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=271&Itemid=238


Oh my, splitting the signal into parallel paths for a cable evaluation could certainly introduce boomy bass, recessed smeared vocals, and brain piercing screechy highs into the inferior cable while creating an undetectable but 3 dimensional modulated magnetic Tesla phased quark field into the return leg of the high quality cable that tightens, extends, and enhances the low frequency, brings the voices just barely but perfectly to the front stage, and refines the high notes so they literally float airily to the listeners ears, and creates a sound stage that perfectly positions each instrument in the listeners head.


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## AudiocRaver

witchdoctor said:


> Actually you use one source, connect the Y splitters at the source and then connect to pre pro.
> I am using the remote to switch the inputs on the processor. So let's say my source is DVD player. Connect one Y splitter to the left RCA out and one to the right RCA out. Then you can run two different cable types from one source. You need to slect two different inputs on the processor for switching purposes. If you can't figure it out and want to be ultra scientific you need one of these instead:
> 
> http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=271&Itemid=238


*IF* one is able to hear a difference in this manner, I would question the use of a Y cable. It could introduce an additional variable that throws the test off somehow. Transmission line effects, reflections, etc, normally not something we worry about in audio, would be affected by a non point-to-point arrangement like that.



Lumen said:


> Sorry, but either you're scientific or you're not. There's no "ultra" about it. In any case, the described setup is limited by the splitter quality. How do you propose to limit their influence?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If a person has the intelligence and aptitude to think logically, make informed decisions, and set up a complex AV system, he is more than _scientific_ enough for our purposes.


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## Lumen

chashint said:


> Oh my, splitting the signal into parallel paths for a cable evaluation could certainly introduce boomy bass, recessed smeared vocals, and brain piercing screechy highs into the inferior cable while creating an undetectable but 3 dimensional modulated magnetic Tesla phased quark field into the return leg of the high quality cable that tightens, extends, and enhances the low frequency, brings the voices just barely but perfectly to the front stage, and refines the high notes so they literally float airily to the listeners ears, and creates a sound stage that perfectly positions each instrument in the listeners head.


That's all very entertaining, but could you please tell us how you really feel? ;-)

Color me dense, but I'm unsure if you're poking fun at me or "witchdoctor." I believe there's nothing wrong with splitting the signal. I was just trying to call attention to possible weak links in the chain to the DUT (device under test).

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## Lumen

AudiocRaver said:


> If a person has the intelligence and aptitude to think logically, make informed decisions, and set up a complex AV system, he is more than _scientific_ enough for our purposes.


Fair enough. I'll concede to levels of scientific expertise. Didn't mean to come across sounding harsh.



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## chashint

I was playing with the split signal test method.


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## willis7469

I have a feeling that Charlie's statement, despite having a little rib to it has more reality than not. My understanding of analog cables is that they should first do no harm,(wait, that's something else but still the same) by way of transferring the signal with the least amount of degradation. My thinking is that "possibly" better made cables will do less to damage the signal than actually adding buttery miss, or super stellar airy highs, or yoga pants tight bass, or....
And also, feel like the Y/-splitter is not a good idea.(see chashints post). 


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## Lumen

Have either of you considered writing cable reviews? Those are refreshing descriptors! I especially like "tight yoga pants bass" and "3 dimensional modulated magnetic Tesla phased quark field"!!

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## willis7469

Lol. Only if Charlie would collaborate with me. Somebody has to be he brains... Lol


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## Lumen

I'm hopelessly paranoid, BTW. Now consider this: "Everything I say is a lie". Get it? If everything I say is a lie, then the original statement is false - meaning that everything I say is not a lie. But if that's true then the original statement is true, I'm really lying, and we're faced with a paradox. 

Paradoxes ( or is that paradoxi ?) exist. Or they don't. Signals degrade; or not. "Do no harm" is as worthy a design philosophy for active electronics as it is for passive cables. 
Let's see... I lost track of where I was going with all that (eek, I derailed myself)! Back in a few.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


chashint said:


> Like most discussions of cables, speaker wires, and power cords it started out in the deep end of the pool.


Now I remember! I swam back into it.
_All-righty, then - having escaped from the Dr. Dimento show..._



chashint said:


> The crowd that "believes" always has the fall back position that engineers/scientists don't know what or how to measure the differences they think they hear.
> The sellers throw up graphs/measurements displaying electrical differences measured around 1MHz then extrapolate that into pseudo-theory to prove the claims of dynamics, clarity, enhancement.....





AudiocRaver said:


> *IF* one is able to hear a difference in this manner, I would question the use of a Y cable. It could introduce an additional variable that throws the test off somehow. Transmission line effects, reflections, etc, normally not something we worry about in audio, would be affected by a non point-to-point arrangement like that.


My engineering background tells me transmission line effects extrapolated into the audible spectrum are often the fodder of pseudo-science. My audiophile background had me believing that termination methods made a difference (pressure-welded vs. soldered). The basic premise is that a pressure-weld fuses two dissimilar metals together for better signal transfer than a soldered connection, which introduces of a possible third metal (excepting silver wire and silver solder). I suppose once audible effects of the so-called "diode effect" in a stranded conductor became commonplace, the floodgates were opened for all manner of pseudo-theory which allowed for signals travelling willy-nilly through space, carpeting, and biased insulators.


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## Philm63

Could one just use the old tried and true method of an A/B Switch, then? One source, one cable from the source to the switch, Cable A and Cable B out of the switch... nuts! I see where this is going wrong... 

Ok, got it - for cable comparison testing, we need a "double-gang A/B Switch". Two independent sets of contacts switched simultaneously by one actuating mechanism. One "set" of contacts would be connected to Cable "A" and the other "set" of contacts connected to Cable "B". The switching contact for each set of ganged contacts would connect the source to the output device (AVR, amp, pre/pro, etc.) then off to your ears . Oh alright, see image below:

View attachment 114690


No?


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## witchdoctor

willis7469 said:


> I have a feeling that Charlie's statement, despite having a little rib to it has more reality than not. My understanding of analog cables is that they should first do no harm,(wait, that's something else but still the same) by way of transferring the signal with the least amount of degradation. My thinking is that "possibly" better made cables will do less to damage the signal than actually adding buttery miss, or super stellar airy highs, or yoga pants tight bass, or....
> And also, feel like the Y/-splitter is not a good idea.(see chashints post).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The Y splitter should be a fun experiment, not a thesis on nuclear fission. If you don't hear a difference don't buy the cable, send it back. Works for me:smile:


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## witchdoctor

Philm63 said:


> Could one just use the old tried and true method of an A/B Switch, then? One source, one cable from the source to the switch, Cable A and Cable B out of the switch... nuts! I see where this is going wrong...
> 
> Ok, got it - for cable comparison testing, we need a "double-gang A/B Switch". Two independent sets of contacts switched simultaneously by one actuating mechanism. One "set" of contacts would be connected to Cable "A" and the other "set" of contacts connected to Cable "B". The switching contact for each set of ganged contacts would connect the source to the output device (AVR, amp, pre/pro, etc.) then off to your ears . Oh alright, see image below:
> 
> View attachment 114690
> 
> 
> No?


This works perfectly, great diagram, thanks!


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## witchdoctor

Lumen said:


> I'm hopelessly paranoid, BTW. Now consider this: "Everything I say is a lie". Get it? If everything I say is a lie, then the original statement is false - meaning that everything I say is not a lie. But if that's true then the original statement is true, I'm really lying, and we're faced with a paradox.
> 
> Paradoxes ( or is that paradoxi ?) exist. Or they don't. Signals degrade; or not. "Do no harm" is as worthy a design philosophy for active electronics as it is for passive cables.
> Let's see... I lost track of where I was going with all that (eek, I derailed myself)! Back in a few.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Now I remember! I swam back into it.
> _All-righty, then - having escaped from the Dr. Dimento show..._
> 
> 
> 
> My engineering background tells me transmission line effects extrapolated into the audible spectrum are often the fodder of pseudo-science. My audiophile background had me believing that termination methods made a difference (pressure-welded vs. soldered). The basic premise is that a pressure-weld fuses two dissimilar metals together for better signal transfer than a soldered connection, which introduces of a possible third metal (excepting silver wire and silver solder). I suppose once audible effects of the so-called "diode effect" in a stranded conductor became commonplace, the floodgates were opened for all manner of pseudo-theory which allowed for signals travelling willy-nilly through space, carpeting, and biased insulators.


First of all I am not an engineer nor a scientist. I am a "hobbyist" looking to increase SQ at the lowest dollar amount possible. Experimenting with cables is just that, experimenting. As long as you can return them for a refund no harm done. My first experiment was a $40 Straightwire Chorus interconnect I saw a good review on. I ordered from an online vendor with a 30 day return policy. I was shocked that I could actually hear an improvement. Then I had non audiophile friends over and told them I would change something without saying what so I could see if I was imagining it. When everyone started chiming in that whatever I changed sunded better I just went with it. I continue to experiment and if I like it, i keep it if I don't I return it. Obe of the lessons I have learned is just because a cable costs more doesn't mean better SQ. But just about everything beats the cables that come stock with a component when you buy it.


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## Lumen

Sorry if I came across with a "tone." It's all good.


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## willis7469

witchdoctor said:


> The Y splitter should be a fun experiment, not a thesis on nuclear fission. If you don't hear a difference don't buy the cable, send it back. Works for me:smile:



A fun experiment indeed. Except, I would be looking for something tangible, as the basis for spending money. As a fun experiment? Yes. This would do. As a means to a purchasing decision? I feel the Y-cable is too vulnerable, to provide certain objectivity. I will probably just purchase well constructed cables knowing that they are well insulated, and their transfer function solid. Now, where are my yoga pants? I need to tighten up my bass....


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## willis7469

Lumen said:


> Sorry if I came across with a "tone." It's all good.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It's ok. Your centered at 50hz. 
Paradoxi? Oh man, rofl. 
Btw, LIRPA labs is having their annual sale soon!(are you familiar?)


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## willis7469

Philm63, nice diagram. I may try this with some relays I have laying around. 


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## tonyvdb

witchdoctor said:


> I was shocked that I could actually hear an improvement. Then I had non audiophile friends over *and told them I would change something* without saying what so I could see if I was imagining it. When everyone started chiming in that whatever I changed sunded better I just went with it.


There is the reason they heard a change, you told them that you changed something Never do that as the mind will play tricks on you.

A better test is to say you changed something and do nothing and see what they say.


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## willis7469

tonyvdb said:


> There is the reason they heard a change, you told them that you changed something Never do that as the mind will play tricks on you.
> 
> A better test is to say you changed something and do nothing and see what they say.



I do like that one. 


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## chashint

tonyvdb said:


> A better test is to say you changed something and do nothing and see what they say.


Absolutely!


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## FargateOne

witchdoctor said:


> The Y splitter should be a fun experiment, not a thesis on nuclear fission. If you don't hear a difference don't buy the cable, send it back. Works for me:smile:


good for me too ! I don't know why but something tells me that I've openned a can of worms:R Interesting posts though.


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## chashint

This is not a new can of worms.
In some form or another this topic pops up from time to time.
It is a circular conversation that will not be resolved in any near term future.


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## witchdoctor

tonyvdb said:


> There is the reason they heard a change, you told them that you changed something Never do that as the mind will play tricks on you.
> 
> A better test is to say you changed something and do nothing and see what they say.


I think you missed the point, I bought the cable because *I* liked it, not because my guests liked it. I appreciate your opinion but please provide your own test results as I did.

Feel free to conduct your own test as you describe, I would appreciate it you posting your results. You can borrow pretty much any cable you want for testing at http://www.thecableco.com/content.aspx?iid=5777


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## tonyvdb

I bet if you had used REW before and after the change there would have been no difference. Again it's a known fact that the mind will play tricks on you.


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## witchdoctor

tonyvdb said:


> I bet if you had used REW before and after the change there would have been no difference. Again it's a known fact that the mind will play tricks on you.


Are you talking from personal experience:smile:


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## tonyvdb

witchdoctor said:


> Are you talking from personal experience:smile:


I've used REW enough times on my own system to know when and what makes a difference. And adding high end cables does not. Proper placement of speakers, acoustic treatment of the room and buying the right speakers for your application are the big changers.


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## Philm63

When I put my recent system together this past year, I made all of my own power cords and speaker cables and I have to tell you; my system sounds great, and my cables look really nice. I couldn't tell you if the cables made any difference or not, but they sure do look nice, and that is exactly what I was going for. I have to agree that good speakers and proper placement (confirmed with REW, of course) goes a very long way to achieving audio bliss. Did I mention how nice my cables look?


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## witchdoctor

tonyvdb said:


> I've used REW enough times on my own system to know when and what makes a difference. And adding high end cables does not. Proper placement of speakers, acoustic treatment of the room and buying the right speakers for your application are the big changers.


So what high end cables have you auditioned? Your components all seem fine and I am sure room treatments helped a lot.


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## tonyvdb

I tried some pricy speaker wire a number of years ago and returned them as they changed nothing. I already have two Eathereal power conditioners on my system (got them for $69 each) and other than peace of mind they changed nothing either. The transformer in the device will filter out any noise unless your power is really dirty and then you have bigger issues.
I've been around long enough to know what is snake oil and what works. This falls into the same category as those silly glass power pole insulators being used as risers for speaker wires.


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## witchdoctor

tonyvdb said:


> I tried some pricy speaker wire a number of years ago and returned them as they changed nothing. I already have two Eathereal power conditioners on my system (got them for $69 each) and other than peace of mind they changed nothing either. The transformer in the device will filter out any noise unless your power is really dirty and then you have bigger issues.
> I've been around long enough to know what is snake oil and what works. This falls into the same category as those silly glass power pole insulators being used as risers for speaker wires.


Well I don't think one audition of "pricy speaker wire" a number of years ago proves ALL high end wires stink, do you? 
As for being around a long time it is irrelevant. Technology changes too fast for that to matter. 
I have never heard of glass power pole insulators so they must be in a category I am not familiar with.
When I add up all of your comments it sounds to me that you are very happy with what you have and in the future it is probably best if we simply agree to disagree. 
If on the other hand you are open minded to actually audition a new cable or power conditioner try www.thecableco.com, they will loan you almost anything for an audition.


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## witchdoctor

Philm63 said:


> When I put my recent system together this past year, I made all of my own power cords and speaker cables and I have to tell you; my system sounds great, and my cables look really nice. I couldn't tell you if the cables made any difference or not, but they sure do look nice, and that is exactly what I was going for. I have to agree that good speakers and proper placement (confirmed with REW, of course) goes a very long way to achieving audio bliss. Did I mention how nice my cables look?


I'll bet it was a lot of fun too:smile:


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## willis7469

witchdoctor said:


> As for being around a long time it is irrelevant.


Really? 


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## witchdoctor

willis7469 said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> In 2016? Really. Look how fast technology changes. For example we have DTS-X being released this year, UHD discs with Atmos being released this week. I come to boards like this to keep abreast of what is happening now, not a long time ago. Don't get me wrong classic tube amps and stuff are all good but you still need to be able to compare to the current tech to perceive value. A great example here are articles like the one on Auro 3D, comparing speaker isolation devices, and the article on room correction was great. No matter how long I have been around I didn't have time to do all that testing myself.


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## willis7469

Couldn't agree more! But to say that seemed a little...off. Being around a long time is exactly why Tony knows what he knows. I've tried all kinds of stuff, including cables. I'm glad you believe in cable magic. I don't, and don't intend to try any loaners either, since I learned the hard way. The other thing is, you're right. Tech evolves so fast it's dizzying. BUT this thread is about Cu. it's been around for a little while now. Not much evolution happening there. 


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## witchdoctor

willis7469 said:


> Couldn't agree more! But to say that seemed a little...off. Being around a long time is exactly why Tony knows what he knows. I've tried all kinds of stuff, including cables. I'm glad you believe in cable magic. I don't, and don't intend to try any loaners either, since I learned the hard way. The other thing is, you're right. Tech evolves so fast it's dizzying. BUT this thread is about Cu. it's been around for a little while now. Not much evolution happening there.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No disrespect to Tony of course. As for changes in Cu it is hard to say. For example Pangea claims they are using a special type of copper and special grip connector, etc. in their new power cords.
I see many similar claims regarding cryo treating etc. I have no way of testing any of these claims except listening. The Pangea HDMI cable was cheap in my book and really made a difference. Was it because of the 4% silver plating? I have no idea. Was it worth $40 in terms of a noticeable improvement? No question. Now Cu doesn't change as fast as CPU's granted but I am glad I was able to stay up on it. Think about the guy that dropped $2K on his new 4K TV only to cripple the performance with a mediocre cable when an extra $40 would have made those colors POP. So when members claim they don't test new tech because they "already know" it won't work it just doesn't make sense to me.
If I can see it and hear it it isn't magic in my book. What I would say is magic is when I see a $ cable blow a $$$ cable out of the water, now that is magic. The reason it happens is advances in technology.

Looking at your system I see you have those fine JBL speakers. The idea of hooking them up using 10 cent a foot speaker wire makes me cringe. It would be like wearing muddy shoes on a new rug in my book. Those speakers are simply crying out for quality speaker cables. I also noticed your SVS sub and bet it would rock you with one of those Pangea power cords as would your receiver. I know you won't test but just saying 

IMO if you implemented those simple changes it would literally transform your system into something you always knew was there but had never sounded this good before. The reason I spend money on quality cables is I demand to hear my high end components sound their finest or else I feel I wasted my money on them.


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## willis7469

But the thing with hdmi is it works, or it doesn't. 1s and 0s. Data transfer. Nothing more. 40 bucks? Probably has a nice jacket! Won't improve picture though. IMO most don't qualify cables as tech in the sense you are thinking. Btw, ever seen what inside most speakers? 


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## witchdoctor

willis7469 said:


> But the thing with hdmi is it works, or it doesn't. 1s and 0s. Data transfer. Nothing more. 40 bucks? Probably has a nice jacket! Won't improve picture though. IMO most don't qualify cables as tech in the sense you are thinking. Btw, ever seen what inside most speakers?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You will never be able to decide if a product is worth $4, $40 or $400 unless you try it out in your own system. Arguing about it without an audition is a waste of time 

For anyone reading this thread that wants to decide for themselves most cables can be auditioned risk free for 30 days.

For those of you who prefer to "wear muddy shoes on a new rug" it is your rug after all


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## willis7469

I will concede that in some analog situations, differences can be had. Not always good, but certainly the potential to be different. In the case of hdmi however, it's not physically possible to accentuate anything. The transfer function works or it doesn't. If you have a picture, it's as good as it can get. If not, you'll have little sparkles, or snowy kinds of anomalies. 
It's that simple. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## witchdoctor

willis7469 said:


> I will concede that in some analog situations, differences can be had. Not always good, but certainly the potential to be different. In the case of hdmi however, it's not physically possible to accentuate anything. The transfer function works or it doesn't. If you have a picture, it's as good as it can get. If not, you'll have little sparkles, or snowy kinds of anomalies.
> It's that simple.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Whenever you deal with digital you have the issue of jitter, if a better cable can help reduce jitter you will hear and see the difference.


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## lcaillo

I would love to see the research and testing methodology for identifying jitter introduced by cables. I am not aware of any but am always looking to learn something. All of the expected effects of cables on digital signals do not account for jitter. What is the theory behind this effect?


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## FargateOne

After plugging and unplugging it many times I got rid of the surge protector because it made a huge difference. For the moment I do not want to put an other one in my chain. Lightnings are not a big problem in my area.

Then I tried a more expansive power cable and a power bar.Because I tried (with it and with the old cord) I heard a difference. The difference was not as spectacular but it was (for me) there. 

Of course, if there was a real problem INTO one of my piece of equipment that I could not hear in my speakers, the cable should not had solved the problem. I can't argue on this because I have not the tools nor the knowledge to check the electrical or the electronical signals into the gears

In decreasing order of logical to the less logical, I think : first are interconnect (between pre amp and amp), followed by speakers cables, third, power cable and the last hdmi or usb cables.


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## tonyvdb

witchdoctor said:


> You will never be able to decide if a product is worth $4, $40 or $400 unless you try it out in your own system. Arguing about it without an audition is a waste of time
> 
> For anyone reading this thread that wants to decide for themselves most cables can be auditioned risk free for 30 days.
> 
> For those of you who prefer to "wear muddy shoes on a new rug" it is your rug after all


The thing is your asking us to try something that is known to be snake oil. 
Mud on my carpet...hmmm I wonder is soaking my speaker wires and power cords in mud would make them sound better.


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## witchdoctor

tonyvdb said:


> The thing is your asking us to try something that is known to be snake oil.
> Mud on my carpet...hmmm I wonder is soaking my speaker wires and power cords in mud would make them sound better.


Asking? I just post about actual experiences I have had with actual components I audition in my system. I own a pair of JBL speakers (different model than the other poster I replied to but same brand) and use the speaker wire I linked to in post #118. Check my desktop system in my profile.

Please post your results after you try the mud soaking experiment, do you really think it will help? I guess you can get a "better ground" that way right? :grin2:


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## willis7469

witchdoctor said:


> Whenever you deal with digital you have the issue of jitter, if a better cable can help reduce jitter you will hear and see the difference.



But hdmi is packet transmission, and error corrected before it leaves, and as its received. The hdmi cable itself can not have any influence on this. This is not conjecture, it's how hdmi works. 
Also, +1 Leonard. 


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## witchdoctor

_What is the theory behind this effect?[/QUOTE]_

Icaillo, the theory behind this effect is while cables don't actually add jitter they can slow signal transitions which result in jitter. See item #7 and #8 here but the whole article is very good and worth a read. You would really enjoy discussing this with Steve Nugent, the co-author and all around good guy.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm


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## witchdoctor

lcaillo said:


> I would love to see the research and testing methodology for identifying jitter introduced by cables. I am not aware of any but am always looking to learn something. All of the expected effects of cables on digital signals do not account for jitter. What is the theory behind this effect?



_What is the theory behind this effect?[/QUOTE]_

Icaillo, the theory behind this effect is while cables don't actually add jitter they can slow signal transitions which result in jitter. See item #7 and #8 here but the whole article is very good and worth a read. You would really enjoy discussing this with Steve Nugent, the author and all around good guy.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm


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## witchdoctor

_


willis7469 said:



But hdmi is packet transmission, and error corrected before it leaves, and as its received. The hdmi cable itself can not have any influence on this. This is not conjecture, it's how hdmi works. 
Also, +1 Leonard.

Click to expand...

_


willis7469 said:


> Well, does that mean you have actually tried the cable I posted about and compared for yourself? Until you do this is a fruitless discussion.


----------



## willis7469

witchdoctor said:


> _
> 
> 
> willis7469 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But hdmi is packet transmission, and error corrected before it leaves, and as its received. The hdmi cable itself can not have any influence on this. This is not conjecture, it's how hdmi works.
> Also, +1 Leonard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> _
> 
> 
> willis7469 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, does that mean you have actually tried the cable I posted about and compared for yourself? Until you do this is a fruitless discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. The same reason science has taught me that the density of water is greater than concrete and jumping off a bridge will kill me. Fruit left to dry up...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


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## witchdoctor

willis7469 said:


> witchdoctor said:
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> 
> Nope. The same reason science has taught me that the density of water is greater than concrete and jumping off a bridge will kill me. Fruit left to dry up...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk_
> 
> 
> 
> _
> 
> That's interesting, the thing about science it advances. I advocate conducting your own experiments but the article on jitter I posted about is pretty good._
Click to expand...


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## willis7469

As a matter of fact, I have inadvertently conducted this experiment in the past. I did a stint in a retail environment and had access to all the cables we sold. I brought home some open box hdmi cables that were in the 50 dollar range. What really disheartened me was that, I saw no difference whatsoever, and also that one of them failed within a month. This is a mid range Panasonic plasma, PS3, and dish network. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## witchdoctor

willis7469 said:


> As a matter of fact, I have inadvertently conducted this experiment in the past. I did a stint in a retail environment and had access to all the cables we sold. I brought home some open box hdmi cables that were in the 50 dollar range. What really disheartened me was that, I saw no difference whatsoever, and also that one of them failed within a month. This is a mid range Panasonic plasma, PS3, and dish network.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can relate. I bought a $50 cable from Emotiva and they made very high claims for their reference line of cables. In my system it made 0 difference.

I had what I thought was the king of all digital cables for 10 years, then a vendor asked me to compare it to his latest and greatest which cost 75% less than my reference. I scoffed at the suggestion but wanted to try just so I could prove my current reference was better (it had to be right, it was 75% more expensive). I can still remember how my brain exploded when I put the new cable into my system and it thrashed what I thought was the king. I mean it was like dropping in a new and better DAC. Now does that mean a different system would have the same results? Not necessarily, but it made a different synergy in my components. Obviously I kept the new cable and the vendor was not surprised, it must happen a lot to him.


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## tonyvdb

witchdoctor said:


> That's interesting, the thing about science it advances. I advocate conducting your own experiments but the article on jitter I posted about is pretty good.


I sure hope you don't believe everything you read, there are plenty of fact based articles that prove that what your sying is wrong. True, science has changed how we see or hear things but many funimentals have remained. HDMI is just what it is, a digital signal. Jitter is introduced only at the sourse or the receiving device by poor encoding or decoding. The cable itself will not cause this unless we are dealing with analog signals, then a cable can make a difference but only if we are talking about line signals not speaker level signals then it's simply making sure you use the right awg for the distance/load.


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## Lumen

There are two kinds of dirt: light dirt on a dark rug, and dark dirt on a light rug! 


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## lcaillo

witchdoctor said:


> _What is the theory behind this effect?_


Icaillo, the theory behind this effect is while cables don't actually add jitter they can slow signal transitions which result in jitter. See item #7 and #8 here but the whole article is very good and worth a read. You would really enjoy discussing this with Steve Nugent, the author and all around good guy.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm[/QUOTE]

I am very familiar with these factors, but you are reading into it much more than there is when it comes to cables. Severe filtering can cause the "edges" of a digital transition to become softened and not trigger at the right time, but this is a consistent process, not random, and does not create jitter. The way that cabling might create jitter is if it is poorly shielded and introduces crosstalk between signals, but this is more likely to create dropout or noise unless the crosstalking signals are similar. Another way might be if there is an impedance mismatch between the source and load causing reflections, but this is also very rare or the system would be defective. 

Has anyone actually demonstated a difference in jitter between two cables in the same system? I know of no one who has, other than some who claim to be able to hear it. I also know of no engineers with significant digital signal experience who have ever found such differences.


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## witchdoctor

_
Has anyone actually demonstated a difference in jitter between two cables in the same system?_

Yes, and the difference is not subtle. I would recommend auditioning this cable and seeing (hearing?) for yourself.

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Digital-Audio-Interconnects/products/89/

If you have any questions about the measurements ask the vendor to provide them or if possible you can conduct your own. If you don't like it just send it back for a refund, NP.

Of the choices available this is my personal reference:

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Cle...nnect-with-PLUS-Upgrade/productinfo/EDRIC-PL/


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## lcaillo

Don't you think if they had actual measurements they would hold them out for everyone to see. This is just a vendor making a claim. Nothing really supporting it that I can see. I tired of asking for such from companies like this long ago. After 30 years in the business, I have seen it many, many times. Take a notion that might lend a little support to your idea and make claims off of it then have some "reviewer" claim dramatic audible differences. 

Jitter is something that can be measured. If a company is claiming reductions and does not produce the data to support it, and offer up the methodology for others to reproduce, it simply is not credible to me.

Now what has been shown to be effective is the placebo effect and expectation bias. So if all those claims and vague references to the technology make you think you have less jitter, and your system sounds better to you, don't ask too many more questions and be happy. Just don't expect those of us who want to understand the technology better to be impressed with companies like this.


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## chashint

Ok, I clicked the link.
I really don't know how an operation like that avoids being prosecuted for fraud.


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## witchdoctor

lcaillo said:


> Don't you think if they had actual measurements they would hold them out for everyone to see. This is just a vendor making a claim. Nothing really supporting it that I can see. I tired of asking for such from companies like this long ago. After 30 years in the business, I have seen it many, many times. Take a notion that might lend a little support to your idea and make claims off of it then have some "reviewer" claim dramatic audible differences.
> 
> Jitter is something that can be measured. If a company is claiming reductions and does not produce the data to support it, and offer up the methodology for others to reproduce, it simply is not credible to me.
> 
> Now what has been shown to be effective is the placebo effect and expectation bias. So if all those claims and vague references to the technology make you think you have less jitter, and your system sounds better to you, don't ask too many more questions and be happy. Just don't expect those of us who want to understand the technology better to be impressed with companies like this.


It is interesting that you already seem to have the answers you were looking for yet still took the time to ask me the question in your earlier post. I took the time to answer your questions, post additional info, send you a PM to introduce you to a fellow engineer who wrote the white paper I posted, even helped you identify a cable that reduces jitter when you stated flat out that you never heard of one. I have bent over backwards to be polite, professional, and helpful.
Why does trying a new cable that you can audition risk free create so much angst?


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## witchdoctor

chashint said:


> Ok, I clicked the link.
> I really don't know how an operation like that avoids being prosecuted for fraud.


Because they return your money if you are not happy.:smile:


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## chashint

Just FYI.
That is not a real white paper and the information in it is (being nice) misrepresented.


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## witchdoctor

chashint said:


> Just FYI.
> That is not a real white paper and the information in it is (being nice) misrepresented.


Here is another one for your review. 

http://www.nanophon.com/audio/jitter92.pdf

I find reading white papers an effort in futility but wanted to post it to try and help you out. I don't think anything can replace the good old fashion experiment Have you ever tried the mirror test?

First you need to get a mirror. Then place the new component (cable, speakers, CDP, etc) in your system and sit down facing your speakers in your main listening position. Put on some heavy metal, hip hop, or Thriller by MJ. Slowly crank the volume up to "11". Then turn off your system and look in the mirror. If your face is frozen in a grin it is a good component.


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## willis7469

Best I can tell, this paper was written before hdmi was invented, which is where the conversation is presently at. No?


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## witchdoctor

willis7469 said:


> Best I can tell, this paper was written before hdmi was invented, which is where the conversation is presently at. No?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Like I said, I prefer the mirror test 

Always test drive a car before you buy it and always do the mirror test before you buy audio equipment.


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## Lumen

FWIW, regardless of whether or not one side sways the other over to their point of view (not likely in this particular debate), I'm sure other readers enjoy the topic as much as I. To that end, I'd like to add a relevant tidbit concerning my own experience with "esoteric" cables. Up until the time an audio buddy introduced me to an upscale aftermarket power cord, I had only considered buying cables which were marginally better than those packaged with the equipment. It took only a few minutes to decide this new power cord made the system better (not just different). In retrospect, I was only experiencing expectation bias at his very suggestion that the cord would, indeed, make a difference. I lived happily every after - well almost - until I invited a fellow engineer over to audition the cord. The passage was one of my own choosing that I believed maximized the differences portrayed by the cord. After swapping the cords in the skeptics presence, I was astonished to discover that I could no longer hear the differences that were so evident in my audio buddy's presence! 

Could it be that expectation bias also works in the opposite direction, causing possible improvements to be dismissed before an audition even begins?


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## tonyvdb

The mind is a powerful thing. Smells, taste, touch, hearing and sight can all be manipulated by many outside influences and fool the brain into thinking something that is not.
If you believe there will be a change then it is highly likely that you will have a change where in reality there is none at all.
In my field I get many complaints from people about noise, too hot or too cold or smells that when I investigate I dont find anything wrong. I usually just pretend to adjust something and 90% of the time the person says its better when I come back a couple hrs later. Its all in your head.


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## lcaillo

Most of us make measurements to understand what the processing is doing, then also decide subjectively if that is what we like. The point is to understand and enjoy, assuring we are making actual progress in our system as opposed to simply hearing what we hope or expect to hear. Over time, my experience is that one becomes better at parsing what is real and what is illusion with this iterative process. And spends less money. I enjoy my system more than when I accepted the hype that many of the manufacturers push out onto the market in my early days in the business. I also don't go down as many rabbit holes chasing nonsense.

There is a healthy balance of skepticism, technical expertise, and willingness to suspend belief here at HTS. Most of us don't just assume that what we think we here is due to what the vendors tell us is going on. We prefer to validate as much as we can and learn where the limits of our perception and belief run up against the limits of the technology.

When you bring beliefs here that are not supported by an understanding of the technology, expect to be challenged. There is a difference between challenging a position and being snarky and condescending to others. Be careful of the line. We are here to learn, and don't mind being presented with information that differs from our understanding or belief. Be clear about the difference between understanding the technology and what you or others believe.


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## tonyvdb

witchdoctor said:


> How can you tell the Trinnov room correction on your Sherwood actually works? How can you tell your Mission speakers are better than Bose?


I heard the before and after results but what sold me is when I took REW and ran tests of before and after and what I saw on my graphs was what sold me that Trinnov did in fact do what it says it does.
The same goes for my theater room, I used REW and ran multiple readings of before and after changes to get to where I am now. I did not rely on only what I heard to come to my decisions.


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## chashint

witchdoctor said:


> Put on some heavy metal, hip hop, or Thriller by MJ. Slowly crank the volume up to "11".


Ahhh now I understand, my volume only goes to 10 and I have the wrong source material.


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## witchdoctor

chashint said:


> Ahhh now I understand, my volume only goes to 10 and I have the wrong source material.


My inspiration for turning it up to "11"  " Right across the board, 11,11,11"


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## witchdoctor

tonyvdb said:


> I heard the before and after results but what sold me is when I took REW and ran tests of before and after and what I saw on my graphs was what sold me that Trinnov did in fact do what it says it does.
> The same goes for my theater room, I used REW and ran multiple readings of before and after changes to get to where I am now. I did not rely on only what I heard to come to my decisions.


Can you post the REW? I have heard great things about the Trinnov stuff. 
How did you test your speakers?


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## tonyvdb

That video looks much better with my rose colored glasses on :nerd2:


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## tonyvdb

The only graph I have posted here of Trinnov is this one but its before I tamed the peak at 30Hz


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## willis7469

witchdoctor said:


> Like I said, I prefer the mirror test
> 
> 
> 
> Always test drive a car before you buy it and always do the mirror test before you buy audio equipment.



Wow. Thanks for clearing that up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## witchdoctor

tonyvdb said:


> The only graph I have posted here of Trinnov is this one but its before I tamed the peak at 30Hz


I have seen posts with guys that own your unit that swear by it. Regretfully Trinnov is only available with $$$ gear these days. I use Audyssey and I find it very important to be able to tweak the settings. On movies its fine but the majority of the times I play music it is a little bright for my taste.
There is a post somewhere comparing Dirac and Audyssey and the author concludes at the end of the day there was no measurable difference yet I know some owners swear by Dirac. Kind of supports the brain is tricking you argument.

This is the link:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...-xt32-vs-dirac-live-listening-comparison.html


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## FargateOne

Hi,
it is the best I can do. The mic was at the same position. See curves of my fronts speakers . The curves called 'snake oil' are measures taken with the 3 following snake oil elements: from the outlet 1 power cord , 1 power bar and 1power cable from the bar to the receiver.
The standard curves are the measures with the receiver connected with the factory standard power cord included with it directly plug into the outlet.

LEFT

View attachment 115138


Right

View attachment 115146


The least I can tell is that I see differences between the curves. How to explain it? If the mic stays at the same position and the delay between the 2 sets is only the time to change the connections...


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## witchdoctor

FargateOne said:


> Hi,
> it is the best I can do. The mic was at the same position. See curves of my fronts speakers . The curves called 'snake oil' are measures taken with the 3 following snake oil elements: from the outlet 1 power cord , 1 power bar and 1power cable from the bar to the receiver.
> The standard curves are the measures with the receiver connected with the factory standard power cord included with it directly plug into the outlet.
> 
> LEFT
> 
> View attachment 115138
> 
> 
> Right
> 
> View attachment 115146
> 
> 
> The least I can tell is that I see differences between the curves. How to explain it? If the mic stays at the same position and the delay between the 2 sets is only the time to change the connections...


Now this is a quality post, fantastic job. It would be helpful if you published the brands as to help future purchase decisions. 

Have you ever noticed that sometimes people rave about a product and then you see the measurements and you are like ??? Speakers come to my mind. The opposite is also true, you can see a perfectly flat frequency response and then you sit down and listen and are like, "Is that it?"

What;s your opinion of measuring the current like this:


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## witchdoctor

Here is an interesting cable company that puts their measurements right on the website.


http://www.paradoxcables.com/#!power-cables/c43j

Check out the differences between the entry level and higher end lines.
I have yet to audition this brand, has anyone else tried it?

They are looking for journalists to test their new products, looks like a great opportunity for one of the admins here at HTS, does anyone want to step up? Check the bottom of this page for a contact form. 

http://www.paradoxcables.com/#!reviews/ctf9


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## FargateOne

witchdoctor said:


> (...)
> 
> What;s your opinion of measuring the current like this:
> (...)


I do not have the knowledge to go futher than my previous post. I have a meter like that but I do not know if it could help to prove the point we are discussing here. 

Also I am very cautious and prudent with the curves I posted becaue I am sure that many members here with more expereince than me in sound could have some good explanations for the little differences other than cables. My intention is to put my grain of salt because I agree with every body who think that if I hear a change I must be able to repeat it back and forth; the curves seem to confirm that IMHO.


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## witchdoctor

FargateOne said:


> I do not have the knowledge to go futher than my previous post. I have a meter like that but I do not know if it could help to prove the point we are discussing here.
> 
> Also I am very cautious and prudent with the curves I posted becaue I am sure that many members here with more expereince than me in sound could have some good explanations for the little differences other than cables. My intention is to put my grain of salt because I agree with every body who think that if I hear a change I must be able to repeat it back and forth; the curves seem to confirm that IMHO.


That's great, I saw you made the effort to measure which is appreciated. You got me thinking about power in general so I opened a new thread, Power- The Overlooked Component. Thanks.


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## willis7469

FargateOne said:


> Hi,
> 
> it is the best I can do. The mic was at the same position. See curves of my fronts speakers . The curves called 'snake oil' are measures taken with the 3 following snake oil elements: from the outlet 1 power cord , 1 power bar and 1power cable from the bar to the receiver.
> 
> The standard curves are the measures with the receiver connected with the factory standard power cord included with it directly plug into the outlet.
> 
> 
> 
> LEFT
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 115138
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 115146
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The least I can tell is that I see differences between the curves. How to explain it? If the mic stays at the same position and the delay between the 2 sets is only the time to change the connections...



I would love to hear john m, or Wayne P address this. They are incredible, and can interpret graphs like nobody's business. I hope they don't feel like I've put them on the spot. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Talley

witchdoctor said:


> Now this is a quality post, fantastic job. It would be helpful if you published the brands as to help future purchase decisions.
> 
> Have you ever noticed that sometimes people rave about a product and then you see the measurements and you are like ??? Speakers come to my mind. The opposite is also true, you can see a perfectly flat frequency response and then you sit down and listen and are like, "Is that it?"
> 
> What;s your opinion of measuring the current like this:
> 
> https://youtu.be/tpTjEighSak


my opinion is it's accurate. But you can just remove the panel cover and tag onto the wires to the breaker there.

I have meters that have accuracy to .001 amp. Nothing like good power


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## willis7469

Talley, where you been?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## witchdoctor

Talley said:


> my opinion is it's accurate. But you can just remove the panel cover and tag onto the wires to the breaker there.
> 
> I have meters that have accuracy to .001 amp. Nothing like good power


That's good news. Please tell me your opinion of these Canare speaker cables. I don't have a meter so I need to get measurements from the manufacturers. So far nearly every manufacturer has provided them with the exception of one (they make the lowest priced cables out there, no surprise there). Thanks


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## Talley

willis7469 said:


> Talley, where you been?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


watching movies dood. knocked out the starwars 6 movies... just finished the hobbit moving onto the lord of the rings, a few kid movies in between... etc.

work been having me swamped too.


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## Talley

witchdoctor said:


> That's good news. Please tell me your opinion of these Canare speaker cables. I don't have a meter so I need to get measurements from the manufacturers. So far nearly every manufacturer has provided them with the exception of one (they make the lowest priced cables out there, no surprise there). Thanks


Spec wise I don't like it but again I'm no expert. 

I use the belden brilliance... I currently have the 10awg but I'm switching it out to 14awg just to try. (belden 1309A)

https://www.belden.com/docs/upload/NP232-2.pdf

They work fine and come from a trusted source.


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## Talley

One of the things I've done recently was tested and tried a balanced cable from Amazon 6 pack for $5.50/ea and then I tried a balanced cable from Realitycables.com which costs $150/ea. 

amazon gls audio cable http://www.amazon.com/GLS-Audio-Pat...&qid=1457585609&sr=8-4&keywords=gls+audio+xlr
reality cable: http://www.realitycables.com/products_pricing.html

gls audio cap: .280 nF
reality cable: .240 nF

gls audio resistance: .17 ohms
reality cable resistance: .12 ohms


I assure you the reality cables sound much much better and do make a difference. They also provide a measureable gain in lower capacitance and resistance which are the two main tickets to good cables.


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## witchdoctor

Talley said:


> Spec wise I don't like it but again I'm no expert.
> 
> I use the belden brilliance... I currently have the 10awg but I'm switching it out to 14awg just to try. (belden 1309A)
> 
> https://www.belden.com/docs/upload/NP232-2.pdf
> 
> They work fine and come from a trusted source.


Nice thanks for posting, I appreciate it.


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## FargateOne

Talley said:


> watching movies dood. knocked out the starwars 6 movies... just finished the hobbit moving onto the lord of the rings, a few kid movies in between... etc.
> 
> work been having me swamped too.


WOW an other guy like us. The 6 Starwars are a family tradition during Christmas time. My son's fiancée did not see the movies and I refused that she married him before she saw the 6 movies with all of us !!!!


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## willis7469

Talley said:


> watching movies dood. knocked out the starwars 6 movies... just finished the hobbit moving onto the lord of the rings, a few kid movies in between... etc.
> 
> work been having me swamped too.



Wow! No wonder you've been so quiet. Enjoying the system. Good for you. Sometimes you have to quit bench racing and go burn some rubber!


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## Jason_Nolan

90% of posts are about cables from OP. Hmm....


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## Jason_Nolan

Double post


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