# Do I need a separate amp for this setup?



## mrshanes (Mar 3, 2010)

For my dedicated home theater, I'm planning on going with Klipsch RF-62II for my LCR speakers and a Denon 4520 AVR. I keep reading about how "efficient" Klipsch speakers are and a dedicated amp isn't necessary. But I also read that most people have a dedicated amp for their LCR. Will I need a separate amp? Is it worth the extra money?
Thanks,
Shane


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

For my listening it really is not necessary. It really depends on how hard you push the system and what amp you are comparing to the receiver.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Sonnie is currently powering his electrostat front stage with the 4520 - given the legendary efficiency of Klipsch speakers, I think the 4520 would be more than sufficient for your setup.


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

Will you "need" a separate amp? I doubt it, I'd think that for most rooms the 4520 and RF-62II would be quite sufficient.
I have a dedicated amp for only my L&R, I did not think I would notice a difference but I did. Is it worth it? For me I'm happy with the money spent and the performance I've heard.


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## jimfrench (Jan 6, 2012)

nova said:


> Will you "need" a separate amp? I doubt it, I'd think that for most rooms the 4520 and RF-62II would be quite sufficient.
> I have a dedicated amp for only my L&R, I did not think I would notice a difference but I did. Is it worth it? For me I'm happy with the money spent and the performance I've heard.


I agree with this as I had a chance to get a 5 channel amp and found I enjoyed the difference was much greater than I expected. I'm running Monitor Audio RX6's & RX Centre which are pretty efficient so I didn't look for much & was pleasantly surprised. The deal offered was too good not to try.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The Klipsch RF-62II are very efficient speakers, there would be no benefit to adding an external amp to the Denon that you have as its amplification section is more than sufficient


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## snowmanick (Oct 16, 2007)

I agree with the above posters who say its not really necessary. As was previously mentioned, Sonny is driving his ML's (with their crazy loads) so well with a 4520 that he sold/is selling his stack of Emo amps. Including the top-o'-the-line XPA-1's.

An amp is a nice thing to have. It looks cool, it seems serious, but really, in >95% of home theaters/home audio, they're not "needed." A good AVR (and the 4520 by all accounts definitely is one), will be more than enough. Spend the money on bass traps/acoustic panels/measuring equipment, or sock it away in savings. They're all going to be more beneficial.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

snowmanick said:


> An amp is a nice thing to have. It looks cool, it seems serious, but really, in >95% of home theaters/home audio, they're not "needed."


I disagree, unless your driving efficient speakers that are better than 90db and are using one of the mid to upper end receivers an external amp is of great advantage. a big % of home theater systems use low to mid line receivers and drive them into distortion when trying to fill a room with reference levels.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

With Klipsch, an AMP is not necessary but it won't hurt either. . But I personally feel they would benefit from from a tube amp to take some of the edge off the horn. I haven't tried it, but maybe a Pioneer Elite Class D might provide a similar effect.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I have no problem running my Klipsch Reference setup with my Onkyo 809. The AVR can easily push them to uncomfortable volume levels with plenty to spare. If you are going to use outboard amplification I would only do so after you have exhausted all upgrades in speakers, gear, and room treatments.


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## snowmanick (Oct 16, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> I disagree, unless your driving efficient speakers that are better than 90db and are using one of the mid to upper end receivers an external amp is of great advantage. a big % of home theater systems use low to mid line receivers and drive them into distortion when trying to fill a room with reference levels.


If you think about it, most of the time the amps are just cruising along at a few watts per channel. If you consider a great many people do not listen at reference levels, and most speakers are not crazy loads, an amp isn't going to provide more than even an average receiver.

For example, a "loud" volume of -10db from ref means that content will peak at 95db. If the listening position is 12 ft from the speaker, and the speaker is within 4 feet of a wall, then even an 87db/2.83 volt speaker is going to be able to provide this (95.7 db at listening position from a single speaker) with a mere 50 watts. Here is the calculator that did the math for me.

Further, the trends over the last decade have been for AV systems to incorporate a sub for the lowest 3 octaves or so, which are the most power hungry. Overall, I stand behind my comment. If you are talking about people running 82db/2.83 volt full range speakers with 1-ohm -65 degree phase angle speakers at reference level in a 5k cubic foot room, than the demands are going to change. But of course, individuals running such a system are few and far between. The vast majority of people do not listen at extremely high levels in very large rooms with crazy, low sensitivity speakers. I feel that population is less than 5% of the total AV crowd (a very small subset of the overall population as it is).

In regards to the OP, he is talking about a 4520, hardy a low level AVR. If the amps are as powerful as the 4311 it replaced, than it is probably in the neighborhood of 120 WPC, ACD (a situation that really doesn't happen outside of a test bench scenario, but a grueling test none the less). The Klipsch RF-62II are rated at 97 db @ 2.83V @ 1 meter. So, with a 120 WPC, 12 foot seating distance, and 97db sensitivity, we are looking at 109.5db peaks. Even if the listener is 20ft away the speaker is able to hit reference level peaks. Adding a 250 watt per channel amp adds a mere 3db of additional headroom, which isn't even necessary to hit ref levels.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Just a thought. 

I really think the original poster should consider borrowing, auditioning, or renting a good amplifier to see if it helps his sound. While he may not need it, a good amp could help with improving his bass response by providing a nice reserve of current.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

@ snowmanick, I agree however your comment was "_>95% of home theaters/home audio, they're not "needed._" I would say that less than 5% of people will have a receiver even close to the 4520.
And its also been proven in bench tests that receivers that cost below aprox $1500 will not put out more then about 65% of their rated output. So in many cases thats only about 50Watts per channel.


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## snowmanick (Oct 16, 2007)

Understood. Two last thoughts though before I let it go, 50WPC with even moderately sensitive speakers is still more than enough. And where many of the modern AVR's (with smaller power supplies) come under pressure is during ACD testing. ACD is nowhere near what most amp's playing actual material will ever see. Its kind of a stat for the sake of being a stat (how many movies have simultaneous all channel, sustained, peak material? Any...?). Hence, why I said most people won't "need" an amp. The situations where they will differentiate themselves just don't occur all that often. 

With that, I hope the OP finds HT bliss, whatever their decision may be.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

So Shane, how hard do you drive your system and do you have a sub?


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## mrshanes (Mar 3, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. That's quite a bit to digest. Clearly I've got a lot to learn.




lcaillo said:


> So Shane, how hard do you drive your system and do you have a sub?


The answer to that is I don't know, and not yet. I'm in the build phase of my theater and just getting ready to purchase my equipment. That's why I was wondering if I would need an amp with this configuration. Sounds like maybe I will not need it. I'll see how things sound without one before deciding.
Thanks


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Start with the receiver, add a sub, then if you still don't have the range you want, move up to an amp. You can often find used amps at a reasonable price.


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