# Small apartment configuration.



## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

Hello ladies and gents, thank you for letting me ask stuff on these forums.
I've tried this in a few different message boards now but the response has either been inconclusive or there has been no response at all. :R

Practical things first:
I live in Europe so quite a few of those wonderful American websites and stores are not available to me.

The situation:
I live in a small apartment. I've recently decided that my old Sony Trinitron TV has had its day and after a lot of searching and asking I ordered a 42" Panasonic TX-P42V20. Then I decided it was about time to get Blu-ray and current generation videogames as well so I bought an Xbox360 and ordered a PS3 which is due in September.

So after splurging on all those goodies I've come to realise that I should just keep on going and get something half decent to listen to as well. Flatscreen speakers are notoriously weak and I'm afraid it will actually be a step down from that bulky Trinitron.

Pictures:
This is my apartment's living space:









And a newer picture:









This is the same place but with the CRT moved out of the way and a table where it used to be, I might go this route and put the TV on it. Otherwise I'll have to put it on the cabinet which I will have to fabricate or purchase.









My room's layout:









It's a rough sketch and there are some scaling and drawing errors. (E.g. The wall on the left of the bed is actually straight down.) But it should at least give you guys an idea of what I'm working with.
People have recommended that I change the room's layout but I haven't really found a better one than this to be honest. But feel free to suggest of course.



So this is it. I have up to* €1000* to spend on audio equipment but I have no idea what's right for me and my budget. (I think it's safe to compare that to $1000 because of the usual price differences.)




Fire Away! :thankyou:


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I have to ask what type of setup are you looking for 2.1 or 5.1?


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## buddf (Jun 20, 2006)

Ares asked a very good question ;-)

Also is there anywhere you can go listen to speakers? That is almost always the best bet. You have a lot of hard surfaces in your room so you may want to lean towards a "warmer" sound and throw a rug on that tile to dampen a little of that echo.


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

@ Ares
I would like to end up with at least 5.1 but I understand if that's just out of my range right now. I might be able to add stuff in the future.

@ buddf
Not really, we only have some general electronics stores around here and they don't really have any stuff hooked up except for the example speakers to sell TVs.


Thanks for the replies so far!


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

My question.

Where will you hang your new TV? On the way to the right? On a stand in the corner beside the desk?

Either way in a very tiny room such as this I have yet to hear something better then the Bose system, I don't know how they do it but it works, and imho very well

http://www.bose.co.uk/GB/en/home-en.../21-home-cinema-systems/cinemate-GS/index.jsp


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

I haven't really read a lot of positive things about the Bose setups, and the one I experienced wasn't all that either. However it is inside my price range and I do appreciate the input so I'll certainly look into it. I'm also worried about upgradeability though...

As for the TV, I probably won't be able to make holes in the wall (renting) so hanging it up will be nigh impossible.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

The Bose systems that "try" to be 5.1 surround with 5 seperate speakers are bad imho. However, if your looking at that system then you have the room and ability to set it up. In your case we would cover up that window, get rid of one of the closets, move the bed/closet to that location, and put your computer on the kitchen table. Then you would have a good area for 5.1. 

I heard the Bose Cinemate in a very small space (probably 6x7) and when the guy told me the sound was coming for those two little speakers I called him a liar, until he turned them off.

This was of course listen to a movie with surround sound. I don't know how they will sound with music or a non-surround TV broadcast.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I'm looking at your pic and the drawing you gave, it will be tough to come up with something that will fit within your allotted space tough but possible. Well I was thinking bookshelves but you can't but holes in the walls to mount shelves or brackets then I thought maybe speaker stands then I realized floor space is at a premium here. It's really hard to get a feel for the space can you please tell us the measurements of your apartment LxWxH.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

May I suggest getting a larger table so you can put your PC and TV next to each other? And then move your desktop on the floor that way it'll free up some space for two high end bookshelf? The only drawback is the spacing between the speakers won't be centered with the TV. I am thinking maybe you can share the bookshelves between your PC and TV, or at least get a bigger table.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

That will still only be 2 channel Wil. No place for the centre and the surrounds would be problematic since no wall alterations can be done.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Yeah, I know. Just judging from his room, doesn't look like there's much he can do. A lot of people have great high end 2.1 setups but it all depends from person to person. He can always plop a center in front of the TV if he raises his TV a little bit for a 3.1, and maybe small bookshelves on stands next to his couch, but looks like a trip hazard in that size of a room.

You would probably need to move some furniture around to maximize space if you want to go the 5.1 route.


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

Hmmm, can they be approximate dimensions?










Only the measured area is (partially) usable.


Closets under the bed:


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Decent size but I still see problems for running wires for true surround. Tile floor, trip hazard to run them on the floor to speaker stands behind the couch. Landlord doesn't really want you to put screw holes in the celing or walls. I will stand by my recommendation, it doesn't have an upgrade path, true. but if I wanted sorta/kinda/what your may call surround for me and guests it should do the trick, especially if I plan on staying here for a while. If its just ME and I am not concerned with company then I would download a program with Dolby headphone, buy myself a Real nice pair of wireless Sennheisers' plug the TV to the computer and be happy...:0


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## buddf (Jun 20, 2006)

Honestly in your set up I would just go for a couple of good floor standers and work on a little sound absorption. You can phantom the center and get a good front stage going. At least then you can enjoy your music and have good definition/sound staging for movies as well.

This will allow for you to in the future maybe upgrade to true surround when you accommodations allow for such.


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

Do you have any specific recommendations for something like that?
I'm really in the dark when it comes to actual stuff like receivers and speakers.


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

And update of sorts:

I've decided to make a cabinet to hold the receiver myself. It's going to end up at around the same height as the desk, 77 cm (2.5 feet) high (including wheels), 70 cm (2.3 feet) wide and 56 cm (1.8 feet) deep.










It'll be standing next to the desk where the old TV is, probably with the P42V20 on top of it. However, I still don't know _which_ receiver and speaker configuration is good for me.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

I have the almost identical size rack on casters (just a bit narrower than that) which also stands along side of my desk!
A couple of things I would suggest..Make your shelves adjustable and don't have a back on it..makes it much easier to access connections..and gives a better air flow..


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

Yeah I'll make them so the height of the plank between the top and middle area is adjustable. I don't think I'll leave out the back plate though.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Take a look at this:

http://www.miragespeakers.com/na-en/products/uni-theater-3-in-1-overview/

Might be the speaker you are looking for


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

Seems a bit expensive if I also have to add a receiver and a subwoofer.
I'm not sure where I would be placing it in this apartment either.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ENRC30

More than 50% off


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

wil11o6 said:


> http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ENRC30
> 
> More than 50% off


Nice!

However, I would prefer to buy the gear a little closer to home. The shipping and taxes will be pretty hefty for items this big. If possible I'd rather get recommendations for specific items like receivers and the speakers and ideas on how/where to put them in my apartment. I'll then try to find a place which sells them in Europe.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

DrPhD said:


> So after splurging on all those goodies I've come to realise that I should just keep on going and get something half decent to listen to as well.


Very recently I heard the Denon AVR1611 w/ the small Definitive Tech Pro Cinema 600 5.1 speakers and was really shocked how good it sounds. I was taken back at the sound quality for the money. There was a real organic and warm quality to the sound w/ this combo that surpassed others I listened to.

http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/5325.asp
http://www.definitivetech.com/Produc...&hometheater=1

Both products are also available in the UK and this system is so good for you as you move into a larger space as well. How good is that?

*Another option for your tiny space is the Polk Audio Surround Bars. They use Polk's famous and highly respected SDA technology designed at the peak of their high-end speakers in the late '80s. They license the same technology in Definitive Technology's sound bars, which are built w/ higher quality drivers. This is a great option for very small spaces.


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

mjcmt said:


> Very recently I heard the Denon AVR1611 w/ the small Definitive Tech Pro Cinema 600 5.1 speakers and was really shocked how good it sounds. I was taken back at the sound quality for the money. There was a real organic and warm quality to the sound w/ this combo that surpassed others I listened to.
> 
> http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/5325.asp
> http://www.definitivetech.com/Produc...&hometheater=1
> ...


That ProCinema 600 speaker setup looks really nice. Seems a bit expensive at 800 but the reviews are great. Finding it for sale is something else though. :scratch:

As for receivers, I really have no idea. Every single company seems to make a million of them and I usually can't spot a whole lot of differences apart from the price.
It's not like there are any showrooms around here either...
The AVR-1611 and the AVR-1911 do look interesting. But if I were to buy a 1911 I'd have to settle with 2.1 for now I think.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

DrPhD,

Many manufacturers do have the same features and the like. You can rely on the reviews if you can't audition. That is why I talked about the quality of sound. I come from an audiophile background so sound is of utmost importance to me. I thought the combo I mentioned sounded superb for the $. Some sound clearer in the ultimate sense, but the body and you are there of the little Denon was very good. The 1911 should be a notch better and it also has a USB iPod port on the front to allow for digital read from your iPod. If you find the Def Tech too pricey there are many other brands. What Hi-Fi? rates the 1911 and 2311 highly.

If you are thinking of 2.1 you only need, stereo receivers w/ sub out are available. This is the route I went for now, but ultimately I want 5.1. Denon makes the DRA-700AEDAB 2.1 receiver for the UK. 

http://www.denon.co.uk/site/frames_...=3&action=detail&Pid=306&main=prod&ver=&sub=2


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

The reason the 1911 looked more interesting is that it apparently does video upscaling well.
While I would start at 2.1, the ultimate objective is still surround. I would just start with less because of my current budget. :sarcastic:

So any recommendations on 2.1 speakers which will work great in a future 5.1 setup are very appreciated. Since the 1911 is rated at +/- 600 I'd have +/- 400 left.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

I've not heard all the possibilities, but was quite impressed w/ the synergy between Denon and Def Tech. If you heart is set on the AVR1911 you could buy 2 Promonitor 800 bookshelves and the Pro Sub 800 for a 2.1 system you could add on to. (Unfortunately the cheaper 600 series is not available seperately, from my search) It is a little over your budget, but by the time you complete the 800 series 5.1 speakers (by adding the center and surrounds) you will have a superior system than the one I heard and was so impressed with. From my research the AVR1911/Pro Cinema 800 is the system I'd want for smokin' HT and music system, in that price range. Plus the reviews on the ProCinema 800 is even better than the ProCinema 600. Good luck.


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

Now I just have to find some place which sells Definitive Tech. :scratch:
Other than that you've been a GREAT help. Thanks a bunch! :T


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

There is competition on the receiver side. The contest is now between the Denon AVR-1911 and the Pioneer VSX-1020-K.


OK, Definitive Tech is not sold anywhere out here unfortunately. The local hi-fi specialist suggested B&W speakers.

He has some B&W VM1 speakers left (they're at the end of their production life) and says they are pretty good. 
If not those, he also suggests the B&W M-1 series of speakers.

Does anyone know if these are any good?


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

Another small speaker consideration is the Klipsch Quintet IV. The II and III were highly esteemed, so I'm sure the improvements to the IV are worthy. Aren't Def Tech available online anywhere in the UK, if not the new Klipsch Quintet is quite good.

I've always like Pioneer, but when I auditioned the Denon/Def Tech system I also listed to a more expensive Pioneer and the Denon had more authority, while the Pioneer was more laid back w/ better clarity...or was it thinner in the midrange giving the impression of add clarity. I can't remember for sure.


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm mainly worried about the lack of connections on the 1911. Especially the single component.
If I really had the option, I'd save just a bit more and get a Pioneer VSX-1120-k but apparently some smart guys didn't think it was necessary to actually release the 1120 in Europe. :waiting:

I'm not in the UK btw. I'll look around for the Klipsch Quintet as well.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Receiver Marantz SR5005
Can buy it online at 
https://www.outlawaudio.com/mofcart/electronics.html

On-Wall Speakers 3x for Front stage (or 5x or 7x... for surrounds it`s up to you)
Can buy them factory direct at http://www.emptek.com/onwall.php
a review of the middle sized one:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/architectural/emp-ew30

Subwoofer - My main reccomendation is to go with a 12" given your room size. Yes I realize it's an apartment and you're not trying to bother your neighbors but filling the room is important, otherwise your sound doesn't reach you well. If I had to give a reccomendation I'd say

1) Do it yourself to get the best bang for buck
Maybe go with this
http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?products_id=691

maybe with this amp

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-752

Do some research after that.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

GranteedEV said:


> Receiver Marantz SR5005
> Can buy it online at
> https://www.outlawaudio.com/mofcart/electronics.html
> 
> ...


Remember DrPhD lives in England so many of your links are not applicable for him.


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm not in England but I am in Europe.

Thanks for the suggestions though, GranteedEV. I'll see if that brand is sold anywhere around here.
As for the sub. I'm not confident enough to build one myself. A cabinet is one thing but a device with electronics in it is something else...


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

DrPhD said:


> I'm not in England but I am in Europe.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions though, GranteedEV. I'll see if that brand is sold anywhere around here.


EMP is an internet direct brand. Officially they only ship to USA. I live in Canada, and I drove down to Montana to pick up my e55tis from a border storage. 

However on their website it does say



EMP Website said:


> At the moment we do not ship to International markets or U.S. Territories (including Canada, Puerto Rico, and any destination outside the United States). Please contact us for more information


They might be able to set up a sale for you, maybe at the cost of voiding your warranty if you set up freight forwarding with some company. Keep in mind, their domestic shipping is free IIRC, so you can get it shipped somewhere like Boston and sent to you from there.

As far as marantz, they should sell in Europe AFAIK; they're like a sister company to Denon. They make quality receivers IMO.

One other reccomendation I've got for you, although I can't quite figure out whether or not they're going to fit your budget, are the Dali Phantoms

http://dali-speakers.com/display_content.php/INT/speakers.html/174

see if they've got a reseller near you.

I do see some of them up on audiogon although I'd get more info first personally

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1286391881&/Dali-ikon-phantom-vokal-in-wal

The same seller also has the Dali 12" sub up for a great price


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm probably not going for a Marantz receiver, I think I'll need warmer sound. That's one of the reasons the Denon avr-1911 was so interesting. Shame it doesn't have enough connections. Certainly not for 600 euros.

Importing items of decent size/weight will usually add quite a bit of money to the price in the form of shipping costs. + There's the tax for importing stuff from outside of Europe...


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

DrPhD said:


> I'm probably not going for a Marantz receiver, I think I'll need warmer sound. That's one of the reasons the Denon avr-1911 was so interesting. Shame it doesn't have enough connections. Certainly not for 600 euros.


Marantz sound considered warmer than Denon's more bright(which is why i reccomended it for your small, reflective apartment). Either way, the coloration from a solid state receiver is virtually moot compared to the speakers you ultimately go with - that's where most warmth or darkness or brightness or transparency etc truly show themselves - most of the mid-range, modern solid state receivers are going to edge towards a neutral sound with just ever-so-slight variation that probably only really shows itself in a well treated room with very transparent speakers. For a receiver purchase, at least, look more into things like 

1) Current output - can it drive 4-ohm speakers without heating up like a toaster oven? This will make the process of speaker-buying less restrained. Keep in mind even some 6-ohm speakers have low dips that can drive some amplifier/receivers into emergency shutdown mode. IMO Emotiva, Outlaw, Sherwood Newcastle, Harmon/Kardon, Pioneer Elite, NAD, and Marantz are better choices with regards to this, probably in that order. I don't really know how Denons deal with 4 ohms.

2) Pre-outs - I think getting a receiver with pre-outs is important as hell because of the flexibility it gives you.

3) Rated vs Actual Power in 7 channels + At what THD do they rate their power. For your room size, I figured the 100 watt marantz 5005's around ~75 wpc in 7 channel @ 8 ohm would be more than enough to drive a relatively inefficient speaker to any reasonably loud level(more speakers lean towards inefficeint than not IMHO), maybe even reference level in-room (shrug). 

4) Features - This one's obvious. Are things like HDMI 1.4a, Dolby TrueHD, DTS Master, Pro Logic IIz, important?

5) What type of auto-calibration does it have? Find out which auto-cal is right for you, it can make a big difference.

6) How easy-to-use is it? Does it have useable GUI menus 

In essense, IMO only after that point you could look at coloration. IMO on that note, denon's not a bad choice at all(although it will lean towards bright) but personally i still recommend the marantz 5005 in your price range.

If you ask me, the difference between two receivers isn't near the difference between two speakers. Be more open with your purchase in that regard.


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## DrPhD (Aug 30, 2010)

Interesting stuff! Especially for someone like me who's never owned a receiver.
One thing about the 5005 though, it costs 800 euros. How would it compare to the Pioneer VSX-1120-K?

What I want most out of a receiver is good audio and longevity.


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