# Considering a Subwoofer Upgrade....



## SRBoston (Jun 13, 2013)

Hello all:

New member here. I am planning to buy a new sub in the next few weeks. I currently have an Energy S10.3, which was a significant upgrade from the Onkyo 10" sub from an HTIB. My room is rather small at 11' x 12' x 7' and the Energy puts out plenty of bass, at least for my taste, so I'm not looking for huge or multiple subs. The space is too small anyway. 

I've been doing a a lot of research, as well as asking for advice elsewhere, and so far I've narrowed it down to the following:

Rythmik LV12R
SVS SB12-NSD or PB-1000
Power Sound Audio XS15

Another one I've looked at is the Hsu VTF2-MK4, but I can't find much love for this one out there. I like the tunability options and the price though.

I use my current setup equally for music and movies. My question to the forum is, which would be best for my situation and why? Any answers are welcomed.

Thanks,

Steve R.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Glad you could join us, SRBoston!

I think either the sealed SVS or PSA subs would serve you well for music and movies. Splitting hairs here, sound quality and service wise. I'd go with the least expensive one.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

tesseract said:


> Glad you could join us, SRBoston!
> 
> I think either the sealed SVS or PSA subs would serve you well for music and movies. Splitting hairs here, sound quality and service wise. I'd go with the least expensive one.


Completely agree - I own subs from both of these companies, and I have been impressed with both.


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## SRBoston (Jun 13, 2013)

Tesseract, ALM,

Thanks for the responses. I was concerned about losing the slam I get from the Energy sub I have if I went with a sealed sub, since the S10.3 is ported. As much as I love my music, I still want that slam when I watch movies. Based on your responses, I'm thinking the SVS SB-12 NSD at this point. 

Expecting to make the purchase in the next few weeks.

Thanks again.


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## Tom V. (Jul 12, 2012)

SRBoston said:


> Tesseract, ALM,
> 
> Thanks for the responses. I was concerned about losing the slam I get from the Energy sub I have if I went with a sealed sub, since the S10.3 is ported. As much as I love my music, I still want that slam when I watch movies. Based on your responses, I'm thinking the SVS SB-12 NSD at this point.
> 
> ...


 Here's some data on the 10.3

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/energy-take-series-home-theater-speaker-system?page=0,2

Older Tom Nousaine style(versus the new CEA-2010 technique.) but the basic FR is there and the 25-63hz output average is actually quite good when you reference other subs measured in the same manner. A few of the subs that measured very close(within 1dB) include the svs pb12nsd, hsu vtf3(with "turbo"), and the axiom ep500. All three of these are well regarded in many circles. One note, all of this data is older, 3-5 years I'd guess. So each of these models have probably had minor updates along the way. I know it is easy to hear "energy sub" and the reflex is to assume it probably isn't "up to snuff" so to speak. But every now and then the big guys strike lightning.. The klipsch rsw15, paradigm pw2200, even some of the older CV woofs all surprised when they were measured.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio


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## SRBoston (Jun 13, 2013)

Tom, thanks so much for the info. Seeing as the S10.3 held its own against some of the well regarded subs at the time, would I not see a significant improvement if I upgraded to a 12" or 15" sealed sub? Don't get me wrong, I really like my current setup. Of course, spending time on these forums has me thinking I'm missing something. Maybe I will invest in some room measuring equipment before and see if I buy anything else. 

Thanks again.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

SRBoston said:


> Maybe I will invest in some room measuring equipment before and see if I buy anything else.


This is absolutely a worthwhile investment IMO. It can help you identify some of your room's characteristics and optimize placement and setup of your existing equipment. And yes it may confirm weaknesses you are hearing. The REW forum here has lots of info. Since you like what you already have, just remember to trust your ears and don't get too carried away with what you could potentially show on a graph.


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## Tom V. (Jul 12, 2012)

SRBoston said:


> Tom, thanks so much for the info. Seeing as the S10.3 held its own against some of the well regarded subs at the time, would I not see a significant improvement if I upgraded to a 12" or 15" sealed sub? Don't get me wrong, I really like my current setup. Of course, spending time on these forums has me thinking I'm missing something. Maybe I will invest in some room measuring equipment before and see if I buy anything else.
> 
> Thanks again.


 I don't recall ever measuring the 10.3 or 12.3s so I'm just basing this off the data I found. 

The FR is tough to gauge but the system appears to be tuned in the 29-33hz range. I'd suspect good output from 30-80hz, rolling off rapidly under that. The Nousaine data shows 84dB at 20hz versus 104dB from 25-63hz(averaged). That sounds awful but it isn't that bad comparatively speaking. For example, the $1200(?) axiom ep500 only did 80dB in the same test. The pb12 hit 96dB, the hsu(with turbo)93dB. 

I guess what I'm trying to circle around is that you have the potential to experience much deeper/stronger bass output from many choices. But if you also want more mid/upper bass impact your choices will become a bit more limited. 

click on the first link here and you'll be able to compare the 10.3 extension and output to other subs

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topic/137903-updated-nousaine-subwoofer-data-list/

The data is limited in many regards but it does give you a good overall idea of what's what. 

Lastly, much depends on your typical listening levels too. If you never exceed master volume levels of say....6-9dB under reference...you have more choices to consider. If, however, you want the system to be capable of reference level playback(even for short demos) AND/OR you prefer the bass levels to be a bit on the *hot* side...the price of admission will go up a bit..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio


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## SRBoston (Jun 13, 2013)

Well, I rarely listen above -20. That's about all I can stand for extended listening. I'm looking for deeper but just as important I'm looking for more articulate. For example, certain songs I listen to have very deep upright bass. When I listen on my current system the notes seem to run together. Definitely not what I want. I'm not concerned about giving up mid-bass slam, as I have plenty now. Can I get this without for under $1K, and do I need to go with a sealed design to get it? 

By the way, I really appreciate your assistance. Thanks.


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

As a suggestion if you can take these subs home (+ others that might suit), rooms / positioning play a huge role.

Purchasing a *calibrated *USB mic (Minidsp UMIK -1 or Dayton EMM - 6 mic from Cross - Spectrum) + a little cabling with your Laptops sound card will produce good results coupled with REW. HDMI used with ASIO drivers can be used as well. REW measures alot more as well.

As far as subs / speakers are concerned the waterfall graph (only useful from 0 - 300 hz) is a great tool + integrating both mains / sub positioning / phase


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## fmw (Aug 11, 2013)

If your choice involves both 12" and 15" models, go with the 15". Amazing difference. I recently did a DIY 15" sub to replace a 12" and the difference is stunning. Go bigger if you can.


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## SRBoston (Jun 13, 2013)

Tom, that Nousaine list of subs is an excellent tool. I see that the S10.3 I currently have does measure up pretty well, at least by the method used at the time.

Fmw, I love the idea of a 15" but I'm concerned that it would be too much for my small space, even if it's sealed. I've been reading up on the SVS SB12 NSD and the PSA XS15. After reading Jim Wilson's review of the XS15 and having it suggested here and elsewhere for my situation, I'm really tempted to go for it, but concerned about size and if it's too much for my small room with limited placement options.


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## Tom V. (Jul 12, 2012)

SRBoston said:


> Well, I rarely listen above -20. That's about all I can stand for extended listening. I'm looking for deeper but just as important I'm looking for more articulate. For example, certain songs I listen to have very deep upright bass. When I listen on my current system the notes seem to run together. Definitely not what I want. I'm not concerned about giving up mid-bass slam, as I have plenty now. Can I get this without for under $1K, and do I need to go with a sealed design to get it?
> 
> By the way, I really appreciate your assistance. Thanks.


 Are you sure the system is calibrated so reference level = *00* on the master volume display? I only ask because *-20* is rarely thought of as loud. 

I wouldn't say you *must* go sealed, but given the room dimensions (11x12x7) I would lean that way---particularly if you are looking for more extension. They say..."without measurements it is just guessing"...and to a large degree, that is correct. So the suggestion to set yourself up to make basic acoustical checks before purchasing a new subwoofer is valid. I may have missed it, but which receiver are you using? 

Given the room size you are going to experience quite a bit of "room gain" and it is going to start uncommonly high in frequency. The 10.3 looks to be very flat(anechoic) from about 32-80hz. In this room it might be flat from 60-80hz and you'll see a gradually rise from 50-55hz down to 27-30hz. By 30hz or so it could be as high as 9-12dB(over nominal). Decay will be far from ideal if the music has a lot of fundamentals in the 30-45hz range. 

To counter this, you can EQ(the receiver may already be taming this to some degree if it has a built in EQ feature like Audyssey), add a ton of room treatment, or concentrate on a subwoofer that has a natural roll-off that will mirror your room's natural gain. The problem with the latter is that most subwoofers (I can think of) that begin a somewhat shallow roll-off that high in frequency also end up having sharp highpass filters in the 25-30hz range. This is something I would avoid for various reasons. 

A viable work-around would be to add a manual EQ so you can shape the subwoofer response as needed. 

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio


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## Saturn94 (Jun 8, 2013)

SRBoston said:


> ....Of course, spending time on these forums has me thinking I'm missing something.......


Lol, you got that right! :laugh:

I don't even want to know how much these forums cost me.... :yikes: :spend:


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## SRBoston (Jun 13, 2013)

Tom, actually I meant -10. I can't say it is calibrated so that reference is "00", although it's plenty loud at -10. I neglected to mention my equipment. I have a Denon AVR 1912 receiver with Audessey Multi EQ, and the Pioneer first generation 5.0 speaker system with floorstanders, center channel and bookshelf surrounds. I have calibrated with Audessey and adjusted all speakers to "small" and the crossover to 80 hz. This was based on info I got from here and other sites. I believe this is the best setup, but I could be wrong.


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## Tom V. (Jul 12, 2012)

SRBoston said:


> Tom, actually I meant -10. I can't say it is calibrated so that reference is "00", although it's plenty loud at -10. I neglected to mention my equipment. I have a Denon AVR 1912 receiver with Audessey Multi EQ, and the Pioneer first generation 5.0 speaker system with floorstanders, center channel and bookshelf surrounds. I have calibrated with Audessey and adjusted all speakers to "small" and the crossover to 80 hz. This was based on info I got from here and other sites. I believe this is the best setup, but I could be wrong.


 -10 would often be considered "loud to very loud" by most so that seems about right. 

80-100hz for all speakers tends to work very well for most applications. 

I wouldn't be overly concerned about the "too much sub" aspect. Of course you don't want to overpay for capabilities you will never need. However, once a subwoofer is calibrated it really cannot overwhelm the rest of the system as the sub will never product more bass than the source material dictates. 

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

For what its worth, I just finished writing my impressions on the Rythmic LV12-R which is a servo control ported sub in a large ported enclosure. Check out the Rythmic LV12-R thread. I feel confident that the LV12-R would easily standup to any sealed sub for its musicality and articulate bass. It also able to produces bass at 20Hz with authority in my listening environment. Brian and Enrico from Rythmic were more than helpful in helping me order this unit and answered all of my questions. Check them out.


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## SRBoston (Jun 13, 2013)

All, sorry for the slow response - having computer and phone issues lately.

Tom, thanks a lot. Been doing a lot of reading here and elsewhere, and it's got me wondering if 2 good smaller subs would be any advantage over 1 larger one. I don't seem to have any nulls, as far as I can tell by ear. Thing is that my space is so small I don't have room for larger ones, as much as I would love to have them.

3dbinCanada, the LV12R is one of the subs I'm considering. It sounds like it's a great sub for the price, but it's big!

I think at this point I'll invest in room measuring equipment and software. Once I'm satisfied I'm getting the most out of my current setup, I'll revisit the upgrade idea.

Thanks all.


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## fmw (Aug 11, 2013)

One more consideration. I just went through my subwoofer upgrade. My problem was that I like the sound of sealed subs and the sealed subs that appealed to me were all well into 4 figures and I wanted to spend about $500-700. My solution was to make my own. It is a 15" sealed sub. It sounds better than the affordable ported subs and is big enough to pressurize the room without working up a sweat. Total cost less my labor was $465 including the plate amp. For another $100 I could have made it beautiful but I hide it in the corner and so I didn't bother.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

fmw said:


> One more consideration. I just went through my subwoofer upgrade. My problem was that I like the sound of sealed subs and the sealed subs that appealed to me were all well into 4 figures and I wanted to spend about $500-700. My solution was to make my own. It is a 15" sealed sub. It sounds better than the affordable ported subs and is big enough to pressurize the room without working up a sweat. Total cost less my labor was $465 including the plate amp. For another $100 I could have made it beautiful but I hide it in the corner and so I didn't bother.


Nice job on what you consider not beautiful.  Have you heard Rythmic's LV12-R? It truly is a musical sub.. very articulate despite it being ported.


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## fmw (Aug 11, 2013)

I haven't heard it but 12" is a little on the small side for my room unless I bought two of them. I read good things about the Rhythmics. It's hard to find sealed 15's for some reason. 12's are common everywhere, even in sealed designs.


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## raynist (Aug 16, 2011)

I would also look at the PSA XV-15.

There should be a good number of B-stock subs at PSA in the next few weeks as they have a trade up program for the new Triax's.

They will have my 3 next weekend


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