# Help on choosing the right sub or subs for my system.



## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

I'm looking for either 1 sub or 2 subs to complete my home theater system. I want to stay with the range of $100-200 but it also depends if I go with 1 or 2 subs. As far as 1 or 2 subs let me know if a higher end sub will do the job or go with 2 subs that are at a lower cost and do just the same.

This is what I currently have:

Mains - Paradigm 100 v3
Center - Paradigm 690 v4
Surrounds - Polk Audio TSi100
Rear Surrounds - Speakercraft Aim 7's
Amp - Denon x4000


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

The best budget sub I know it would be Dayton. I doubt you could get more bang for your buck.

Sent from my iPhone using HTShack


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Paradigm Reference speakers + really inexpensive subwoofer = bad combination.

I would urge you to reconsider. Those speakers deserve _far _more than any $200 (or less) sub will ever be able to provide. I can't imagine an outcome besides disappointment.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

+1 on Jim's thoughts. Don't cheap out on the sub. For $569, you can get into a Rythmik LV12-R which is a ported sub with a 12" driver which tight enough for music and digs into the 19 Hz range with authority.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

bernch5 said:


> ....As far as 1 or 2 subs let me know if a higher end sub will do the job or go with 2 subs that are at a lower cost and do just the same....





3dbinCanada said:


> +1 on Jim's thoughts. Don't cheap out on the sub....


Hope I'm not stating the obvious, bernch5. Get a single better sub instead of two you'll soon regret.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

With Paradigm 100 v3 up front. I would save for a sub over $500. The very bottom end sub you should get is a used Paradigm Servo 15 V1.

A $100-$200 sub would be a waste of money with those great speakers up front.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Here's the broken record! These guys are absolutely right. +All. 
Take your 200 bucks and stuff it under your mattress til you come up with the rest(however much that is). Subwoofers are investment pieces, not accessories. Well maybe...lol
Buying a 200 dollar sub is easy but selling it to recoup will be impossible. And +Jim. Those mains deserve much better, and might even perform better than a budget sub. Lol.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

Understood and I can work with that since we're focusing on 1 sub only. With that being said could you give me at least 3 sub options that fit that $500-600 range.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

What are the dimensions of the space (HWD)? Note I said space and not "room"; many folks have open concept floor plans, so the area/room the HT is in could actually be adjacent to other rooms. All of the contiguous space needs to be accounted for when determining how much subwoofer is required.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

thejman said:


> what are the dimensions of the space (hwd)? Note i said space and not "room"; many folks have open concept floor plans, so the area/room the ht is in could actually be adjacent to other rooms. All of the contiguous space needs to be accounted for when determining how much subwoofer is required.


8h 24.5w 29d


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

bernch5 said:


> 8h 24.5w 29d


Houston, we have a problem...

There isn't a $500 subwoofer made that can fill over 5600 ft^3 I'm afraid. Something like a Rythmik LV12R might produce bass you can at least hear, but realistically you would need to spend quite a bit more to achieve even marginal output.


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

If you are able to fit a large enclosure and are willing to build it yourself, there are a couple of designs that will get you in for that budget. The Bill Fitzmaurice THT, the F20, or Lilwrecker all use inexpensive drivers and don't need huge amps.


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

At 500$ you can buy a 12-15in sub that's worth keeping. The guys here should have good recommendations for OEM subs, I only had DIY subs. Your next upgrade will be a second sub, maybe a third one... The additional sub(s) will eventually make up for possible SPL limitations with the added benefit of more uniform bass across the listening area (You will never achieve that with a single sub at any price point). In my opinion you are better with 2x 500$ subs than a (possibly larger) 1000$ sub. Depending on your room and listening preferences, you might be happy with your initial sub as well.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

dgmartin said:


> At 500$ you can buy a 12-15in sub that's worth keeping. The guys here should have good recommendations for OEM subs, I only had DIY subs. Your next upgrade will be a second sub, maybe a third one... The additional sub(s) will eventually make up for possible SPL limitations with the added benefit of more uniform bass across the listening area (You will never achieve that with a single sub at any price point). In my opinion you are better with 2x 500$ subs than a (possibly larger) 1000$ sub. Depending on your room and listening preferences, you might be happy with your initial sub as well.


I'm starting to agree that 2 $500 subs is the way to go here. I mainly use this system for movies 40% and music 60% So if that is the case what 2 subs would be best at that price range.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

bernch5 said:


> I'm starting to agree that 2 $500 subs is the way to go here. I mainly use this system for movies 40% and music 60% So if that is the case what 2 subs would be best at that price range.


Given the amount of space you're dealing with it might be better to get one larger subwoofer instead. Something along the lines of the HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP, Rythmik FVX15 or PSA V1500. You'll need to move a lot of air to get output in a room that size, and a larger driver is the only way to do it. If you find one of them still isn't sufficient then maybe somewhere down the line you can pick up a second unit. All three of those models are newly released so they should be around for a few more years.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I'm with Jim again. My experience has been to get the single best sub you can afford. Plan for 12 months into the future and squirrel away until you reach goal. 2mediocre subs are still just that. It is difficult, but NOT impossible to have smooth response with one sub. It just takes time, and willingness. More subs makes that easier however.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

+1 on the last two responses. One bigger good sub is better than two mediocre smaller subs when trying to pressurize a room of that size.


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

I tend to agree 500$ is not enough for an amplified OEM sub. I would not go cheaper than the Rythmic LV12R either. The step to VTF-3 MK5 at 799$ these days would be worth it. You could get 2 if you don't mind spending 2000$ for subs in the end.

Maybe I'm over interpreting your posts, but could someone explain why one bigger sub is better than two smaller subs (with the same combined volume displacement at Xmax as the bigger sub) when trying to pressurize a room?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

dgmartin said:


> Maybe I'm over interpreting your posts, but could someone explain why one bigger sub is better than two smaller subs (with the same combined volume displacement at Xmax as the bigger sub) when trying to pressurize a room?


 power. Linearity. Extension.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

dgmartin said:


> Maybe I'm over interpreting your posts, but could someone explain why one bigger sub is better than two smaller subs (with the same combined volume displacement at Xmax as the bigger sub) when trying to pressurize a room?


A subwoofer can only do what it was designed for, so no matter how many of them you use the lower extension (-3dB point) will never change. Furthermore, the smaller the driver you use in a large space the harder it has to work. While using more than one unit does mitigate that you still end up in the same place with regards to extension; you're limited. You can always gain output with additional units, but you can't gain a deeper response.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

bernch5 said:


> I'm starting to agree that 2 $500 subs is the way to go here. I mainly use this system for movies 40% and music 60% So if that is the case what 2 subs would be best at that price range.


Is your budget now $1000? Or $500 total? Or...???

cheers


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

bernch5 said:


> I want to stay with the range of $100-200 but it also depends if I go with 1 or 2 subs.





bernch5 said:


> With that being said could you give me at least 3 sub options that fit that $500-600 range.





bernch5 said:


> I'm starting to agree that 2 $500 subs is the way to go here. I mainly use this system for movies 40% and music 60% So if that is the case what 2 subs would be best at that price range.


I'm guessing it's going to be awhile until you get a sub now since your budget is now blown out of the water. Please know that the guys here are not major bass heads that will spend whatever they can to get lots of bass. They have all started in the same place as you and they have all made mistakes. A big mistake is getting an underpowered sub for your system or room and it ends one way... loss of money. You may think that we are just trying to get you to spend more money but we are trying to get you a sub at the lowest cost that will play with your system/room.

Enjoy your system and save. Your Studio 100's will handle the LFE and Music until you find a sub to take over the bass.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I have an Outlaw LFM1EX and it is in an open floor plan home.
I guesstimate my sub is about equal to the current generstion Hsu VTF2.
You know my sub does alright.
I wouldn't have enthusiasts over to show it off to, but everyone else thinks it's pretty impressive.
The sub is well integrated with the front main speakers and there's a huge difference between no sub and with sub.
I know everyone is trying to help and I am not saying they are wrong, but I went through the sub buying thingy having never owned a sub of any kind.
I got the same inputs you are getting.
I finally bought the Outlaw when they were having a supersale figuring if it didn't cut the mustard I could flip it without getting hurt to much.
I am not a bass head, I mostly listen to classic rock, we watch plenty of movies and when Godzilla is sneaking up on Mothra you feel the tiptoes shaking the furniture.
Would I like a bigger badder subwoofer??? Probably, but I know for sure my wife wouldn't.
As it is she regularly tells me she feels the couch shaking....she doesn't mean it in a good way.
The one thing I do not get is the kick in the chest feel. 

Just throwing out one more perspective.


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

theJman said:


> A subwoofer can only do what it was designed for, so no matter how many of them you use the lower extension (-3dB point) will never change. Furthermore, the smaller the driver you use in a large space the harder it has to work. While using more than one unit does mitigate that you still end up in the same place with regards to extension; you're limited. You can always gain output with additional units, but you can't gain a deeper response.


Jim,

Thanks for taking the time to answer. I already know that but it is nevertheless useful to understand the context. I was looking at it in a more general (maybe less practical/market oriented) perspective that extension is dependent on driver fs and box tuning and, in this case, having the same volume displacement available can translate into the same room pressurization (maybe with some EQ since power is not relevant in this excursion-limited frequency range). I was not implicitly equating f3 with driver size because it isn't true in general (most DIY drivers come with Fs in the 18-20Hz range and any 18+in pro subwoofer at least half an octave higher). I now understand you are talking about OEM subs and a quick survey of the subs recommended above made me realize extension comes with driver size in this market (well it makes sense if distortion is to be kept low in the single-sub X.1 paradigm). I think I must also revise my assumption that the use of multiple subs was more mainstream.

The agreement around the single biggest sub option left me scratching my head and I was just trying to see if I was missing something about the summation/conversion of driver displacement into room pressurization.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

dgmartin said:


> Thanks for taking the time to answer. I already know that but it is nevertheless useful to understand the context. I was looking at it in a more general (maybe less practical/market oriented) perspective that extension is dependent on driver fs and box tuning and, in this case, having the same volume displacement available can translate into the same room pressurization (maybe with some EQ since power is not relevant in this excursion-limited frequency range). I was not implicitly equating f3 with driver size because it isn't true in general (most DIY drivers come with Fs in the 18-20Hz range and any 18+in pro subwoofer at least half an octave higher). I now understand you are talking about OEM subs and a quick survey of the subs recommended above made me realize extension comes with driver size in this market (well it makes sense if distortion is to be kept low in the single-sub X.1 paradigm). I think I must also revise my assumption that the use of multiple subs was more mainstream.
> 
> The agreement around the single biggest sub option left me scratching my head and I was just trying to see if I was missing something about the summation/conversion of driver displacement into room pressurization.


Barring a misunderstanding on my part, I don't imagine you're missing anything.

Multiple drivers of a given size will have additional output potential, but even accounting for that the level of pressurization is limited by physics. In essence, no matter what they're combined output yields it won't really affect the physical sensation you experience. If you want to be truly immersed you have to consider subwoofer(s) which are capable of coupling themselves to your environment such that they can produce more than just sound. In other words, big space needs big drivers.

There are probably no absolutes when dealing with audio, but in a general sense you can consider the driver size vs. room size equation to favor the former instead of the latter.


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

theJman said:


> Barring a misunderstanding on my part, I don't imagine you're missing anything.
> 
> Multiple drivers of a given size will have additional output potential, but even accounting for that the level of pressurization is limited by physics. In essence, no matter what they're combined output yields it won't really affect the physical sensation you experience. If you want to be truly immersed you have to consider subwoofer(s) which are capable of coupling themselves to your environment such that they can produce more than just sound. In other words, big space needs big drivers.
> 
> There are probably no absolutes when dealing with audio, but in a general sense you can consider the driver size vs. room size equation to favor the former instead of the latter.


Interesting. I do absolutely concur with you that BIB. Still I keep thinking about possible physical explanation(s) for the subs' coupling. An interesting experience would be bigger driver vs. stacked/side-by-side pair under controlled SPL. About "more than sound", just wondering could it have to do with the structural vibrations of the house. I imagine a single large excitation is going to have more effect than two smaller ones. Also the smaller ones may be phase-aligned acoustically but not structurally. Free time and a few accelerometers could give us some clues .

I believe a rational limitation from multiple smaller subs that has not been mentioned is that they cannot all excite the first room mode unless they are all located (at least) along the same wall, which somewhat defeats the purpose. Probably the optimum is 1 as big a acceptable ULF sub + 2-3 smaller ones for smoothness.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

bernch5 said:


> I'm starting to agree that 2 $500 subs is the way to go here. I mainly use this system for movies 40% and music 60% So if that is the case what 2 subs would be best at that price range.


What types of music predominantly? More acoustic (classical, jazz, etc) or more electronic (rock, pop, etc)?

cheers


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> What types of music predominantly? More acoustic (classical, jazz, etc) or more electronic (rock, pop, etc)?
> 
> cheers


Rock, pop, r&b


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

theJman said:


> Paradigm Reference speakers + really inexpensive subwoofer = bad combination.
> 
> I would urge you to reconsider. Those speakers deserve _far _more than any $200 (or less) sub will ever be able to provide. I can't imagine an outcome besides disappointment.


Agreed!!!! The OP will need something that can dig deep and even a diy at $200 won't cut it when you take the mains into consideration!


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

dgmartin said:


> Interesting. I do absolutely concur with you that BIB. Still I keep thinking about possible physical explanation(s) for the subs' coupling. An interesting experience would be bigger driver vs. stacked/side-by-side pair under controlled SPL. About "more than sound", just wondering could it have to do with the structural vibrations of the house. I imagine a single large excitation is going to have more effect than two smaller ones. Also the smaller ones may be phase-aligned acoustically but not structurally. Free time and a few accelerometers could give us some clues .
> 
> I believe a rational limitation from multiple smaller subs that has not been mentioned is that they cannot all excite the first room mode unless they are all located (at least) along the same wall, which somewhat defeats the purpose. Probably the optimum is 1 as big a acceptable ULF sub + 2-3 smaller ones for smoothness.


That's similar to what I'm doing. I have 2 SVS 16-46's in the corners and towards the middle I have 2 Wharfedale SW-380's, I have a Def Tech Supercube under my seat. 

@OP, I did find this over at Parts-Express http://www.parts-express.com/dayton...ies-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7093

That setup is 234.00 each - Then the OP could power them with something like this http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ment/126841-behringer-ep2500.html#post1249233

That's 180.00 + 468.00 come out to be 648.00 (not including shipping) for 2 fine 15 inch subs. You may even be able to find someone selling an inuke amp cheaper. This is just an example of what can be had, but it will take a minimal amount of work from you :nerd::sweat::whistling:


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

theJman said:


> Barring a misunderstanding on my part, I don't imagine you're missing anything.
> 
> Multiple drivers of a given size will have additional output potential, but even accounting for that the level of pressurization is limited by physics. In essence, no matter what they're combined output yields it won't really affect the physical sensation you experience. If you want to be truly immersed you have to consider subwoofer(s) which are capable of coupling themselves to your environment such that they can produce more than just sound. In other words, big space needs big drivers.
> 
> There are probably no absolutes when dealing with audio, but in a general sense you can consider the driver size vs. room size equation to favor the former instead of the latter.


Hey JMan, here's my graph of the subs in my room 1 sub (sw-380), 2 subs (2 sw-380's), and finally 4 subs (2 sw-380's and 2 SVS 16-46's). Couldn't take a measurement of all 5 because my wife came home - I like it quiet when I measure .


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

prerich said:


> Hey JMan, here's my graph of the subs in my room 1 sub (sw-380), 2 subs (2 sw-380's), and finally 4 subs (2 sw-380's and 2 SVS 16-46's). Couldn't take a measurement of all 5 because my wife came home - I like it quiet when I measure .


You should level match all 3 graphs to 38Hz and you will see a differnt picture.


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## Pigman (Nov 21, 2012)

I would highly recommend a HSU sub. http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html 500-600, and man it can shake my house, while still being incredibly musical.


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

Blacklightning said:


> You should level match all 3 graphs to 38Hz and you will see a differnt picture.


I'll try that this weekend  !!!!


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

bernch5 said:


> Rock, pop, r&b


Ok. Once you sort out your amp situation and sub budget, I'll give my 2c


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## Pigman (Nov 21, 2012)

Should have included this in my earlier post:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...reviews/125922-hsu-research-vtf-3-mk5-hp.html

Review of the next step up from the HSU I recommended. As you can see the reviewer is quite pleased with the performance of the sub.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Pigman said:


> Should have included this in my earlier post:
> http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...reviews/125922-hsu-research-vtf-3-mk5-hp.html
> 
> Review of the next step up from the HSU I recommended. As you can see the reviewer is quite pleased with the performance of the sub.


Yes, he was...


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## Pigman (Nov 21, 2012)

Ha ha! Well there you have it from the horse's mouth!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Blacklightning said:


> You should level match all 3 graphs to 38Hz and you will see a differnt picture.





prerich said:


> I'll try that this weekend  !!!!


I don't think Blacklightning meant it literally. *This post* should be able to help you out. If you follow the advice given there, you might not have to re-post your graphs.


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

Lumen said:


> I don't think Blacklightning meant it literally. *This post* should be able to help you out. If you follow the advice given there, you might not have to re-post your graphs.


Thanks! I take almost everyone serious if I don't know them , it's that old military in me lddude:.

I also don't post my graphs down to 15hz because I use a subsonic filter at 18hz, but I can if you want me to


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Yes, just raise the level in REW.

This will help put each reading on the same level.

Higher peak is not always better, you want a flatter response.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

Blacklightning said:


> I'm guessing it's going to be awhile until you get a sub now since your budget is now blown out of the water. Please know that the guys here are not major bass heads that will spend whatever they can to get lots of bass. They have all started in the same place as you and they have all made mistakes. A big mistake is getting an underpowered sub for your system or room and it ends one way... loss of money. You may think that we are just trying to get you to spend more money but we are trying to get you a sub at the lowest cost that will play with your system/room.
> 
> Enjoy your system and save. Your Studio 100's will handle the LFE and Music until you find a sub to take over the bass.


Understood and I appreciate the honest feedback. I was able to get approval from my good half to do up to 1k sub. So hopefully that will at least get me something that will work for my room.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> Ok. Once you sort out your amp situation and sub budget, I'll give my 2c


I'll be going to best buy to get the amp and sub. I would like to keep my budget around 1k to 1300 what would be my best options and get me what I need.


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

Best option is not to go at BB. Please wait for some feedback on other options.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

What are the options at BB for AMP and Sub in your area?


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

Blacklightning said:


> What are the options at BB for AMP and Sub in your area?


I was planning to order online since it has more options. Here is the link for the amps available. 

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchp...t=n&iht=y&usc=All Categories&ks=960&keys=keys

Here is the link for available subs. 

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchp...t=n&iht=y&usc=All+Categories&ks=960&keys=keys


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

I can't help with the Amp and the only sub I have experience with is the MartinLogan - Dynamo 15" 650W Powered Subwoofer. It's a good sub and was reviewed on this site. Subs from SVS, PSA, and others will be a better bang for your buck. If your only option is BB I would hold off on getting a sub.
You have beefy speakers please do not cheap out on a sub. I think you should hold out for a larger Budget or go with a ID (Internet direct) Brand.

On the Amp side, Emotiva will be sold at places like BB soon.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

bernch5 said:


> Understood and I appreciate the honest feedback. I was able to get approval from my good half to do up to 1k sub. So hopefully that will at least get me something that will work for my room.





bernch5 said:


> I'll be going to best buy to get the amp and sub. I would like to keep my budget around 1k to 1300 what would be my best options and get me what I need.


So around $1k each for sub and amp? I'll take a browse.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> So around $1k each for sub and amp? I'll take a browse.


Since I'll be going through BB I'm willing to go up to 1500 if needed.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

along with the Martin Logan's, Definitive Technology - SuperCube are good. 

But I would rather have a PSA XV15se ($899) Ported or PSA XS15se ($799)


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

bernch5 said:


> Since I'll be going through BB I'm willing to go up to 1500 if needed.


It won't be needed.
Ok: BB choices
1) Crown XTI2002 ($699) - more power than you'll ever need, should fit (around 12" deep), extremely doubtful fan would ever kick in given how powerful it is, would probably destroy speakers if accidentally turned up too much.
2) Marantz MM7025 - available at Magnolia? No fan.
3/4) - AudioSource AMP310/Alesis RA500 - No fan. Save $$.

cheers


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Unfortunately the subs at BB are not what I would call IMHO, "subs". I understand that's your only option, but it's still money being spent, so I can only recommend maybe 1 or 2 of these to at least give you some HT bass (and they will), while not costing much. Consider them a viable option until you have $ set aside for a non-BB sub. You will get better bass performance from multiple subs, so they won't go to waste and can still be utilized in future.

cheers


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Blacklightning said:


> But I would rather have a PSA XV15se ($899) Ported or PSA XS15se ($799)


 +1. Or rythmik, or SVS. None of BB's subs will give close to the performance. Especially for the money. Why BB, and not ID?


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> Unfortunately the subs at BB are not what I would call IMHO, "subs". I understand that's your only option, but it's still money being spent, so I can only recommend maybe 1 or 2 of these to at least give you some HT bass (and they will), while not costing much. Consider them a viable option until you have $ set aside for a non-BB sub. You will get better bass performance from multiple subs, so they won't go to waste and can still be utilized in future.
> 
> cheers


Ok well this still helps me out on saving money with getting the amp from BB. I'll go ahead and look at some of the mentioned subs that a few have mentioned on here.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

Out of the following subs that have been mentioned for the price I'm making my decision on the HSU. Before I do that I want to know that this would be a good option for my room or will I notice the difference by spending the extra 150 for one of the other subs. Sorry for the back and forth on this I just agree with not going with a cheap sub as it will end up costing me more down the road.

PSA XS15se $799

HSU VTF-3MK5 HP $888

PSA XV15se $899

Rythmik FVX15 $1050

PSA V1500 $1050


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey bernch5, talley has an HSU sub and really loves it. Maybe he'll share some input (output? Lol) I would take anything sealed off the list, especially going with a single for awhile. The extra output will be necessary. My space is 6700cuft so I understand your situation. Hopefully Jman chimes in as (I think) he's had experience with the aforementioned subs. 
I don't have time, but this link may provide some more insight. 
http://www.data-bass.com/home
All good choices BTW.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

1


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> It won't be needed.
> Ok: BB choices
> 1) Crown XTI2002 ($699) - more power than you'll ever need, should fit (around 12" deep), extremely doubtful fan would ever kick in given how powerful it is, would probably destroy speakers if accidentally turned up too much.
> 2) Marantz MM7025 - available at Magnolia? No fan.
> ...


Since I'm in the 700-800 range I noticed the Emotiva XPA-2 wasn't mentioned on here, I've seen from other reviews that this is a great amp as well. For $800 should I be considering this amp as well? It's not in BB but I'm going between SDS-440CS, Marantz and now Emotiva?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yes. Emotiva also provides great performance.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

bernch5 said:


> Since I'm in the 700-800 range I noticed the Emotiva XPA-2 wasn't mentioned on here, I've seen from other reviews that this is a great amp as well. For $800 should I be considering this amp as well? It's not in BB but I'm going between SDS-440CS, Marantz and now Emotiva?


You're all over the place.
Yes, if your non-BB budget is now $800+, by all means consider the XPA-2, after considering measuring your shelf depth to make sure 19" + speaker connectors will fit. Check height too while at it.
If the (non-BB) budget is that high, then it ought to be the SDS-470 ($700), not 440, under consideration from Class D Audio.

I do not recommend spending all your sub budget on one sub (if physical/measurable bass quality matters to you), so again, decide your actual BB/non-BB budget and I will make a recommendation.

cheers,


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

bernch5 said:


> Out of the following subs that have been mentioned for the price I'm making my decision on the HSU. Before I do that I want to know that this would be a good option for my room or will I notice the difference by spending the extra 150 for one of the other subs. Sorry for the back and forth on this I just agree with not going with a cheap sub as it will end up costing me more down the road.
> 
> PSA XS15se $799
> 
> ...


I've reviewed the first two on this list, and have heard the bigger brother of the FVX15 (F15HP), so I have some experience with a number of those.

As mentioned by others, scratch off anything acoustic suspension; the sealed subs will be completely overwhelmed by that much space. Frankly, I think all of them will struggle. To sufficiently pressurize your room duals would be necessary, but if that's not in the budget the HSU would probably be your best option. It's the least expensive of the bass reflex subwoofers you're looking at, and it's certainly able to complement your Paradigm's.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> You're all over the place.
> Yes, if your non-BB budget is now $800+, by all means consider the XPA-2, after considering measuring your shelf depth to make sure 19" + speaker connectors will fit. Check height too while at it.
> If the (non-BB) budget is that high, then it ought to be the SDS-470 ($700), not 440, under consideration from Class D Audio.
> 
> ...


Now that I'll be shooting for xpa-2 my budget for one sub or two subs is 900-1k. If I have to do one sub for now because of my budget and wait for the second sub I'm ok with that.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

My vote would be HSU VTF-3MK5 HP $888 or PSA XV15se $899.
As theJman said your end game should be duals so for that reason only you should do HSU VTF-3MK5 because it's a new/current sub. PSA's XV15se is great but PSA has a replacement model so it will be hard to find a XV15se a year from now.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

bernch5 said:


> If I have to do one sub for now because of my budget and wait for the second sub I'm ok with that.


 This can be very difficult, but in the long run will be so worth it. The "shoe" is a good choice and the 2nd will be easier to get. If only by a little lol. I lived with a single PC 12 plus for awhile in more space than yours and it was surprisingly capable but now have 3 subs in here, and the extra smoothness and headroom especially are really worth the investment.


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## chris0228 (Feb 25, 2014)

To the OP, BB can get anything SVS sells and if you're getting a package deal they can get you a better price than you'd get going directly thru SVS. Message me for details but if you have to go thru BB, please do not buy ML or DT subs. Anything SVS makes will be better in performance and bang for your buck that those.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> You're all over the place.
> Yes, if your non-BB budget is now $800+, by all means consider the XPA-2, after considering measuring your shelf depth to make sure 19" + speaker connectors will fit. Check height too while at it.
> If the (non-BB) budget is that high, then it ought to be the SDS-470 ($700), not 440, under consideration from Class D Audio.
> 
> ...


I went into Emotiva website and they currently have the following 

Xpa-2 $809
Xpa-3 $719
Xpa-5 $899

Does it make sense to purchase the 3 channel for the price and run my center with the mains? Would I be losing power by going to a 3 channel instead of a 2 channel?


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

The XPA-200 is all that you need. You will not need the extra power of the XPA-2 or XPA-3.

Most AVR's only have 40-70 watts per channel running all channels (100-150 watts single channel) and that is fine for 95% of the guys here. You can save more if you listen to some of the guys in your other thread.

Your Paradigms need clean power so do get an amp but one year from now your system will sound the same to you with a $200 amp vs a $800 amp. Your system will *sound the same* it just will not be shutting off.

Spend more time, and money on getting a good sub as that is what will make your system sound different.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

Sounds good I found a crown 1500 that I will be purchasing today(I'll need help on how to set this up as far as the settings on the back of the amp as well as the front settings of the amp for my paradigms 100's since I never used used an ext amp before.) So that leaves me with 1200-1400 budget for my sub situation.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

bernch5 said:


> Sounds good I found a crown 1500 that I will be purchasing today(I'll need help on how to set this up as far as the settings on the back of the amp as well as the front settings of the amp for my paradigms 100's since I never used used an ext amp before.) So that leaves me with 1200-1400 budget for my sub situation.


The XLS-1500 should do just fine. 
Does your room have corners on the wall where you have your equipment shelf/TV etc, or is it open to the sides? Can a small sub be placed/hidden somewhere along the sides or to the rear? Pic by chance? 

cheers


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> The XLS-1500 should do just fine.
> Does your room have corners on the wall where you have your equipment shelf/TV etc, or is it open to the sides? Can a small sub be placed/hidden somewhere along the sides or to the rear? Pic by chance?
> 
> cheers


The current setup has the two subs in the front.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Sorry if I missed it between, but I went back and reread your original post and didn't see any subs listed. You already have 2? What type? Are to new sub(s) to compliment those? Replace? Can the new sub(s) be placed in the room? It seems everything is flush mounted there.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> Sorry if I missed it between, but I went back and reread your original post and didn't see any subs listed. You already have 2? What type? Are to new sub(s) to compliment those? Replace? Can the new sub(s) be placed in the room? It seems everything is flush mounted there.


I don't have subs there that is just a dummy cover. There will go behind that cover which is about 2-3 feet deep.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

bernch5 said:


> I don't have subs there that is just a dummy cover. There will go behind that cover which is about 2-3 feet deep.


What will you be using for ventilation? The amps rely upon convection to dissipate heat, and if you're putting those subs into what's essentially a sealed enclosure they're more than likely going to overheat.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

theJman said:


> What will you be using for ventilation? The amps rely upon convection to dissipate heat, and if you're putting those subs into what's essentially a sealed enclosure they're more than likely going to overheat.


It's all open in that lower area where I can don't think it will be a problem. It's not like an enclosed section.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

bernch5 said:


> So that leaves me with 1200-1400 budget for my sub situation.


I would still stick with a HSU VTF-3MK5 HP $888. Just check the size.

With one sub, I'm guessing you may have to move the sub around that room to fine the best spot.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

bernch5 said:


> It's all open in that lower area where I can don't think it will be a problem. It's not like an enclosed section.


Right, but the size of the opening is sort of critical for what subs should be recommended ...not to mention where the port is, etc. 
The one I *was* going to recommend is rear ported...not any more. 
Is there access from the rear? Are there outlets in there? Can a third sub be placed in room somewhere (there are wireless options, just need outlet....and CEO of decor/wife approval)?


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> Right, but the size of the opening is sort of critical for what subs should be recommended ...not to mention where the port is, etc.
> The one I was going to recommend is rear ported...not any more.
> Is there access from the rear? Are there outlets in there? Can a third sub be placed in room somewhere (there are wireless options, just need outlet....and CEO of decor/wife approval)?


Yes there is rear access where I can run the wires to the avr and yes I have outlets in that area for each sub. Yes there is room to put a Wireless sub in either back corner.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

It's a nice looking room, and even though someone spent the time making provisions for subs to go under the screen, my gut says you'll not want them there. I believe it'll be worth finding the best location/s out in the room. Sometimes WAF wins, but I don't remember any mention thus far. Just some more to chew on.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

bernch5 said:


> Yes there is rear access where I can run the wires to the avr and yes I have outlets in that area for each sub. Yes there is room to put a Wireless sub in either back corner.


Ok, but we still need to know whether the subs must be sized to fit through opening, what size the opening is and whether a larger than opening size sub can be placed from behind access. Opening dimensions?
How far away do you sit and how close to that area could a 3rd sub (wireless if necessary) be placed?

cheers


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> Ok, but we still need to know whether the subs must be sized to fit through opening, what size the opening is and whether a larger than opening size sub can be placed from behind access. Opening dimensions?
> How far away do you sit and how close to that area could a 3rd sub (wireless if necessary) be placed?
> 
> cheers


Opening size is 22.5Hx19.5wx22d. 12ft seating from the subs and I could put that third sub on either corner from the seating area.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Looks like most of the vented subs will not fit or be too tight for that space. You may have to run all the subs in the room.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

bernch5 said:


> Opening size is 22.5Hx19.5wx22d. 12ft seating from the subs and I could put that third sub on either corner from the seating area.


Ok, I recommend a pair of these with front port option (not listed on website, but they have them). Should fit in openings and the class d amps will run cool. $1138 shipped.
The third, in room sub, one of these. That will be your move around room smoothing sub, used to fill any nulls at the listening area. Should fit your $1400 budget.

cheers


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

ajinfla said:


> Ok, I recommend a pair of these with front port option (not listed on website, but they have them). Should fit in openings and the class d amps will run cool. $1138 shipped.


Rythmik sells the LV12R with a front port??? I never knew that. When did they start offering those?


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

The third, in room sub, one of these. That will be your move around room smoothing sub, used to fill any nulls at the listening area. Should fit your $1400 budget.

How will I be able to connect a 3rd sub when the denon only has 2 inputs?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

bernch5 said:


> The third, in room sub, one of these. That will be your move around room smoothing sub, used to fill any nulls at the listening area. Should fit your $1400 budget. How will I be able to connect a 3rd sub when the denon only has 2 inputs?


 they're actually outputs, but you'll just need a splitter. 
Something like this. 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005D...+y+adapter&dpPl=1&dpID=41spXFxt2UL&ref=plSrch


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> they're actually outputs, but you'll just need a splitter.
> Something like this.
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005DL2OVE/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?qid=1438441238&sr=8-5&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70&keywords=rca+y+adapter&dpPl=1&dpID=41spXFxt2UL&ref=plSrch


Perfect. Does it matter which two subs connect to this splitter? Is there a difference.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

bernch5 said:


> Perfect. Does it matter which two subs connect to this splitter? Is there a difference.


 no. Not at all. The signal will be the same.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

theJman said:


> Rythmik sells the LV12R with a front port??? I never knew that. When did they start offering those?


The LV12R was the replacement for the LV12. They still have pictures of it on Rythmik's site all over the place.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

theJman said:


> Rythmik sells the LV12R with a front port??? I never knew that. When did they start offering those?


You have to be an industry insider like me. Either that, or you see the pic above, say hey, that looks like a front ported version despite no such model listed and email them.....
Apparently they have "some" stock of those, so Bernch better move quick if he chooses that route.

cheers


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## klnglim (May 12, 2014)

honestly , as a consumer, we pay what we get, if looking for the budget $100-$200 sub, DIY is the best way


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> You have to be an industry insider like me. Either that, or you see the pic above, say hey, that looks like a front ported version despite no such model listed and email them.....
> Apparently they have "some" stock of those, so Bernch better move quick if he chooses that route.
> 
> cheers


I plan on calling them tomorrow to order them.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> Ok, I recommend a pair of these with front port option (not listed on website, but they have them). Should fit in openings and the class d amps will run cool. $1138 shipped.
> The third, in room sub, one of these. That will be your move around room smoothing sub, used to fill any nulls at the listening area. Should fit your $1400 budget.
> 
> cheers


I called the store to get these on order and they told me that the front port lv12 have been discounted and none available. Is there any other options for my specific setup or I'm I gonna have to settle placing them in the corners?


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

bernch5 said:


> I called the store to get these on order and they told me that the front port lv12 have been discounted and none available. Is there any other options for my specific setup or I'm I gonna have to settle placing them in the corners?


Placing them "in" your room will most likely be the best place for the sub. but I understand wanting to use the wall units.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

bernch5 said:


> I called the store to get these on order and they told me that the front port lv12 have been discounted and none available. Is there any other options for my specific setup or I'm I gonna have to settle placing them in the corners?


I forwarded your post to the owner, who had told me last week they were available. Either a misunderstanding or possibly other folks reading the thread swooped in over weekend.
You never did say whether a bigger-than-opening sub could be placed from behind...

cheers


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> I forwarded your post to the owner, who had told me last week they were available. Either a misunderstanding or possibly other folks reading the thread swooped in over weekend.
> You never did say whether a bigger-than-opening sub could be placed from behind...
> 
> cheers


No it can't be placed from behind.


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## bernch5 (May 31, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> The XLS-1500 should do just fine.
> Does your room have corners on the wall where you have your equipment shelf/TV etc, or is it open to the sides? Can a small sub be placed/hidden somewhere along the sides or to the rear? Pic by chance?
> 
> cheers


OK now that I have this amp and since I'm not sure what's the best option I should be hooking these speakers up to as far as what cables to use and what mode. Can you please advise?


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