# Hi guys and gals, first post, looking for some advice, and maybe have some silly questions....



## etecnifibre (Feb 12, 2011)

First off, my setup with pics...

Pioneer VSX23-TXH (110W/channel)
Paradigm stuff:
CC690 center
SA-35 fronts
Sub 12
SA-15R (L/R inputs) rear
ADP-190s for the surround

Display, Samsung PN63C8000

Pics: (sorry, just links, they aren't showing up in the post.)
https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/cbburnet/eBay/SA35-9.JPG
https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/cbburnet/eBay/SA35-7.JPG
https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/cbburnet/eBay/CIMG0764.JPG
https://oncourse.iu.edu/access/content/user/cbburnet/eBay/CIMG0763.JPG

Now, to the questions. I had an amplifier, but had some humming issues, and didn't feel like chasing an electrical gremlin, plus, it was a 300W, and think it might have been overkill. I'm still trying to figure out exactly WHY an amplifier is needed. I can turn my Pioneer up all the way, and the sound is so loud, almost too loud, but it's so clean and clear that I think I could go more (talking music here). On movies, it's not SO loud. I'm just wondering if amplifying will make things more crisp and clear during a movie? Does the amp help out at lower volumes as well?

Another question, I have read a lot about the Emotiva. The UPA-7 claims 125W into 8 ohms, but if I already have a receiver putting 110W out, what would be the point of amplifying unless I go with one that is 200W or so? Would I notice a difference?

As for my speakers, I'm definitely gonna replace the ADP-190s with something from Paradigm's studio line, haven't decided which ones yet, maybe the SA-ADPs, but not sure if I wanna spend that much.

I know I've asked a lot here about amps, just trying to figure it out. I mean, I've got a pretty good start with the speakers, just don't want to stop if I can spend a little more and have it completely done up right.

Thanks for the responses, 

Eric


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## koyaan (Mar 2, 2010)

You can't go wrong with a seperate amp. The wattage measurement varies GREATLY among manufacturers. 
Yes, it will even sound better at lower volumes. The object isn't to get more volume, but better sound.
I don't have any experience with the Emotiva, but a lot of folks like them. I run an old Outlaw 770 ( replaced by the 7700 which added balanced inputs) and couldn't be more pleased.
I think your headed in a pretty good direction for speakers. 
Great luck, and enjoy.


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## etecnifibre (Feb 12, 2011)

koyaan said:


> You can't go wrong with a seperate amp. The wattage measurement varies GREATLY among manufacturers.
> Yes, it will even sound better at lower volumes. The object isn't to get more volume, but better sound.
> I don't have any experience with the Emotiva, but a lot of folks like them. I run an old Outlaw 770 ( replaced by the 7700 which added balanced inputs) and couldn't be more pleased.
> I think your headed in a pretty good direction for speakers.
> Great luck, and enjoy.


Maybe I'm asking too much, but I've searched and searched, and really don't know HOW exactly the sound is going to be better? Should I just go with a higher powered receiver like a Pioneer SC-37? I mean, if it's putting out 140W/channel, what would be the point of using the preouts into a 7 channel amp doing, say, 150W/channel?

Thanks for the response.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
When you had the amplifier hooked up, did you ever try a Cheater Plug? Also, what kind of Amplifier was it. Note, some have issues with lifting the Ground as you do with Cheater Plugs, but I have been doing so for years with zero issues as Parasound Amplifiers seem quite sensitive to Ground Loops and Cheater Plugs have taken away the hum every time. 

Note, there is a certain measure of danger in using Cheater Plugs, so do so at your own risk. I am afraid the UPA Series would be too close to your AVR so I would go with the XPA Series.
Cheers,
JJ


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## etecnifibre (Feb 12, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> When you had the amplifier hooked up, did you ever try a Cheater Plug? Also, what kind of Amplifier was it. Note, some have issues with lifting the Ground as you do with Cheater Plugs, but I have been doing so for years with zero issues as Parasound Amplifiers seem quite sensitive to Ground Loops and Cheater Plugs have taken away the hum every time.
> 
> Note, there is a certain measure of danger in using Cheater Plugs, so do so at your own risk. I am afraid the UPA Series would be too close to your AVR so I would go with the XPA Series.
> ...


I never tried the cheater. It was an Adcom GFA7807. I had people coming over that afternoon, started hooking everything up (it was mostly together before I decided to break my 50" plasma), and I had hum, didn't feel like messing with it so I sold the amp.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm not good at remembering details of stuff but here are some basics and maybe someone else will come along and really explain the details.

--Amplification can be measured many different ways. Say you have an AVR and an outboard amp that states 100w/ch. For testing, maybe the AVR is only driving 1 channel at one frequency to get 100w. But then maybe the outboard amp is driving 5 channels with multiple frequencies and gets 100w/ch.
When the AVR tries to drive all 5 channels, it might only get 60w/ch.

--Even if both amplifier's power handling characteristics are the same, they might produce different sound. Under ideal conditions all amps should produce the same neutral sound, that is, an amp shouldn't impart any of it's own characteristics to the signal. But sometimes they do (this also happens with speakers).

--Many factors go into an amp's quality. 
Obviously one is the quality of components that make up the amp (transformer, amps, circuitry...). Say there is an AVR for $1000 and an amp for $1000, the AVR manufacturer has to spread their cost over many other components besides the amplifier section.
Not only the quality of parts used, but also the placement of the parts and the shielding between different sections plays a big role.
The outboard amp may use a better power section which will store more power to use. The AVR may have plenty of power on hand for short loud scenes, but may run out of steam during a longer sequence. The outboard amp may store enough to last all the way through long sequences.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

If you can't afford all the good stuff right off the bat, I would concentrate on getting the basics first. I consider amps to be a luxury item, not a necessity.

Spend good money for a decent AVR, all good speakers (including subs), some room treatment.

Then once you're satisfied with all the basics, then go for the extras like outboard amps and eq's.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

etecnifibre said:


> I can turn my Pioneer up all the way, and the sound is so loud, almost too loud, but it's so clean and clear that I think I could go more (talking music here). On movies, it's not SO loud.
> Eric


Are you using different sources for the music and movies? 
Some source components will put out a different volume to the AVR, so maybe a DVD player will not be as loud as a CD player (same with cable boxes).
Some AVR's will allow you to adjust levels for different inputs. So you may be able to increase the level for the input of the movie source component.



etecnifibre said:


> I'm just wondering if amplifying will make things more crisp and clear during a movie? Does the amp help out at lower volumes as well?
> Eric


A higher quality outboard amp may help simply because it may produce a better quality sound (less distortion).
More amplification will not help for lower volumes unless those lower volumes are too much for your current amp to handle.
Say right now you have a high quality neutral amp rated at 150w/ch. Let's say that the loudest volume you listen to reaches 90db and your system can produce that with no distortion with the AVR volume set to 1/2. More power (such as a 300w/ch amp) will not benefit your system.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I would have a good read through this thread....

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...n-we-really-hear-difference-between-amps.html


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## etecnifibre (Feb 12, 2011)

gdstupak said:


> If you can't afford all the good stuff right off the bat, I would concentrate on getting the basics first. I consider amps to be a luxury item, not a necessity.
> 
> Spend good money for a decent AVR, all good speakers (including subs), some room treatment.
> 
> Then once you're satisfied with all the basics, then go for the extras like outboard amps and eq's.


I'm not sure what is considered "the good stuff". My center channel and sub were close to 3000 dollars together. Also, I did list my entire setup in the first post minus the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player.

I do appreciate your help, but this thread isn't about what I can afford and what I can't. I did make mention that I wasn't sure if I WANTED to spend 1500 on a pair of surrounds when I can get by with a couple of $400 speakers with not a whole lot of difference in the rear. This thread is about what is going to make my speakers sound the best.



gdstupak said:


> Are you using different sources for the music and movies?
> Some source components will put out a different volume to the AVR, so maybe a DVD player will not be as loud as a CD player (same with cable boxes).
> Some AVR's will allow you to adjust levels for different inputs. So you may be able to increase the level for the input of the movie source component.
> 
> ...


Different sources seem to stay pretty well even in volume to my ear. HDTV through the cable box, Blu-Ray through the PS3, Music through the iPod (connected via USB to my receiver.)


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

etecnifibre said:


> I'm not sure what is considered "the good stuff". My center channel and sub were close to 3000 dollars together. Also, I did list my entire setup in the first post minus the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player.


I wasn't questioning your equipment. You do have the good stuff, I was just making a generalization.



etecnifibre said:


> I do appreciate your help, but this thread isn't about what I can afford and what I can't. I did make mention that I wasn't sure if I WANTED to spend 1500 on a pair of surrounds when I can get by with a couple of $400 speakers with not a whole lot of difference in the rear. This thread is about what is going to make my speakers sound the best.


I guess if you don't want me to comment on a point that you mention, then you shouldn't mention it ("I did make mention that I wasn't sure if I WANTED to spend 1500 on a pair of surrounds when I can get by with a couple of $400 speakers with not a whole lot of difference in the rear"). 
Part of having 'good speakers' is having a full set of speakers that are matched and work together. 
Maybe there are voice matched surrounds that are less expensive than $1500. 



etecnifibre said:


> This thread is about what is going to make my speakers sound the best.


Maybe that's what the title should have been, or maybe that's what you should have written in the opening post.



etecnifibre said:


> Different sources seem to stay pretty well even in volume to my ear. HDTV through the cable box, Blu-Ray through the PS3, Music through the iPod (connected via USB to my receiver.)


So what do you mean by "on movies, it's not so loud?"
...Oh, wait, sorry, I forgot that you didn't want discuss volume...


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Do you have any interest in investigating outboard equalizers?

I have an amp and full range eq's. The only reason I have an amp is because it was needed for the setup and wiring of the eq (don't get me wrong, I love having my amp).
I have not heard my system without the amp/eq's for quite a few years, but earlier this week I was doing some frequency testing on several sets of speakers and I wanted the sound to come straight through the AVR (no outboard amp, no eq'ing). 
So I did a bit of listening with and without the accessories. The only time the outboard amp really made any noticeable difference (improvement) was when I pushed the AVR to it's limits (if you like listening to movies/music at louder levels like I do, an amp helps). 

The biggest and most noticeable improvements came from the outboard full range eq's. These improvements came through all speakers and at all volume ranges. Especially at lower volumes, the full sound spectrum was improved, instruments more clear, dialogue more clear, bass more powerful yet clear,the upper frequencies really shined (sounds like birds chirping in the main speakers or the surround speakers sounded more noticeable and lifelike).

About 7 or 8 years ago when I first started thinking of eq's I was slightly skeptical on how much improvement there would be. The first time hearing my system after eq'ing, it was like I'd replaced my speakers with ones that were the next step up.

If you want to be able to play louder levels, get an amp.
If you want your current speakers to have more detail and definition, get an eq.

My opinion.


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## etecnifibre (Feb 12, 2011)

gdstupak said:


> I wasn't questioning your equipment. You do have the good stuff, I was just making a generalization.
> 
> 
> I guess if you don't want me to comment on a point that you mention, then you shouldn't mention it ("I did make mention that I wasn't sure if I WANTED to spend 1500 on a pair of surrounds when I can get by with a couple of $400 speakers with not a whole lot of difference in the rear").
> ...


Meaning on movies, I don't get the ringing in my ears, of course, in a movie, it's not a constant, there is dialog, etc. That's what I meant there.



gdstupak said:


> Do you have any interest in investigating outboard equalizers?
> 
> I have an amp and full range eq's. The only reason I have an amp is because it was needed for the setup and wiring of the eq (don't get me wrong, I love having my amp).
> I have not heard my system without the amp/eq's for quite a few years, but earlier this week I was doing some frequency testing on several sets of speakers and I wanted the sound to come straight through the AVR (no outboard amp, no eq'ing).
> ...


I really don't know. My receiver allows EQ adjustments. If I get into too much, I'll have to have someone set it up for me cause I just don't know what I'm doing enough to do so.


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## etecnifibre (Feb 12, 2011)

OK, I talked to a few people and finally figured this out, so I've decided to go with a 200W amp. In looking around online, the 7 channel ones can get pricey in a hurry. I was looking at Emotiva, and in reading some reviews, people have had good success, and this company seems to be like some of the other internet companies like SVS and some others. Plus, at the price, it seems hard to beat.

So, what I'm looking at doing, since I'm running a 6.1 configuration, is running two of the XPA-3's. This will cost me around 1600 bucks. They don't make a 7 channel, and my thinking is that I can run my fronts and my single surround rear on one, and my center and my surrounds on the other. That way, I'm not stressing one way more than the other, and having two amps and thus two power supplies seems like the amps will run more efficiently and probably last longer.

I've also decided to move the SA-35's to the surround positions and replace them with the SA-LCRs.

If anyone wants to chime in on my line of thinking, it would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## leej (Jun 9, 2010)

If I were adding the XPA 3, I would power the L/R and Center. Your center will get much more content than the surrounds. This would give a more balanced front, as well. If you're talking about a surround, back speaker, they don't see near the content as the center.


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## leej (Jun 9, 2010)

BTW, if the hum that you heard with the previous amp was caused by a gournd loop, it is possible that you could experience it with the new amp. If so, yuou might want to look at the advice by Jungle Jack regarding the cheater plug on an earlier post.


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## etecnifibre (Feb 12, 2011)

Thanks, Lee, that makes sense as well.

As for the other amp, at the time I really didn't feel like fixing it, and selling the amp seemed the best way to go. After reading and talking to a few people, I realize how much I'm leaving on the table by NOT using an amp, so I will definitely be taking whatever steps are needed to get a good ground.

I already had a dedicated 20A circuit installed for the Adcom, I think I will replace that single plug with a dual, and power both Emotiva amps on the same circuit, which I assume won't be a problem.

Now it's just a matter of coming up with the $3500 more to complete my setup. I can't wait to get the amps installed. I can already listen to music and hear the individual instruments way more than anything I've ever heard before, on songs that I've been listening to for over 20 years.


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