# upgrading from denon 2808 to ????



## pietsch288 (Sep 10, 2006)

Hello guys, one of my buddies is going to buy my 2808 from me, and I was thinking about purchasing the 4311-- so I have a few questions. With my 2808 when I watch a dts hd movie I can't adjust "night mode" or any dynamic range relief settings and sometimes I can't even use cinema eq--can I adjust the 4311 with all sound formats (DD/dts/thx and also the TRUEHD or DTS master audio versions)? I only watch movies so I'm not asking about 2 channel. With the 2808 when watching HD movies I can't adjust center width - effect- or any of the customizing properties, can I with the 4311? Is the cinema eq in the denon the same as the THX eq in the onkyo? Basically I wan't to use audyssey or audyssey flat (which ever one I like better) with the cinema eq and probably the "low" setting on "night mode" or other dynamic range setting on every movie I watch regardless of the format it was recorded in. I also wouldn't mind a couple of different surround mode's to play with either (not as important). 
It seems like the 2808 (when I play a blu ray) is plagued with copyrite issues or perhaps (because it was new back then) I mostly paid for the ability to decode HD material without getting many adjustable properties. thanks rich 

I have to say that I am a little dissapointed with the 2808 so the last thing I wan't to do is spend more money and be equally dissapointed with the 4311.

I was also looking at the 5008 onkyo what are your thoughts about it?? 
Is the cinema eq in the denon the same as thx eq in the onkyo?
Has anybody listened to both.....and???
I have klipsch speakers...Is one a better match than the other??
I see the onkyo has what should be better amplification....is it any better??
thanks rich


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

pietsch288 said:


> Hello guys, one of my buddies is going to buy my 2808 from me, and I was thinking about purchasing the 4311-- so I have a few questions. With my 2808 when I watch a dts hd movie I can't adjust "night mode" or any dynamic range relief settings and sometimes I can't even use cinema eq--can I adjust the 4311 with all sound formats (DD/dts/thx and also the TRUEHD or DTS master audio versions)? I only watch movies so I'm not asking about 2 channel. With the 2808 when watching HD movies I can't adjust center width - effect- or any of the customizing properties, can I with the 4311? Is the cinema eq in the denon the same as the THX eq in the onkyo? Basically I wan't to use audyssey or audyssey flat (which ever one I like better) with the cinema eq and probably the "low" setting on "night mode" or other dynamic range setting on every movie I watch regardless of the format it was recorded in. I also wouldn't mind a couple of different surround mode's to play with either (not as important).
> It seems like the 2808 (when I play a blu ray) is plagued with copyrite issues or perhaps (because it was new back then) I mostly paid for the ability to decode HD material without getting many adjustable properties. thanks rich
> 
> I have to say that I am a little dissapointed with the 2808 so the last thing I wan't to do is spend more money and be equally dissapointed with the 4311.
> ...


Hello,
I do think the Onkyo has a much more heavy duty Amplifier Section than the 4311. It weighs almost 20 pounds more than the 4311. Another thing I like about the Onkyo is it offers a fully backlighted Remote Control.

With the Klipschs being quite efficient, either AVR should have no issues driving your Speakers. I just personally like the THX Post Processing on the 5008 and believe Denon charges a premium simply for being Denon. I do love that the 4311 offers Preamp Only Mode where the Amplifiers in the AVR can be turned off if using outboard Amplification. I also have owned many Denons in the past. It is just since they sold and merged with Marantz and a few other Brands, it really seems they have put their AVR's on a diet. That is not offering as strong of an Amplifier Section.
Cheers,
JJ


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## chas (Jan 28, 2007)

I believe the 2808 has Audyssey but not Audyssey Dynamic EQ/Dynamic Volume....correct? Stepping up to these will be a big improvement over using Denon's old cinema eq.


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## pietsch288 (Sep 10, 2006)

Any chance I can save some $, is the 3008 is "just as good" as the 5008 or perhaps good enough?? 
I'm dissapointed enough with my 2808 purchase that I'm scared to spend "all out" on a receiver. As you know the price diff almost allows me to add a used 200wpc outboard amp later if I choose. The only difference I can see between the 3008 and the 5008 are the 32bit dacs and 5watts per channel and Massive Toroidal transformer. thanks rich

Yes, you are correct the 2808 doesn't have Audyssey Dynamic EQ/Dynamic Volume. Until I purchased the 2808 I didn't realize how many movies are encoded in DTS or THX, the 2 formats I can do absolutely nothing with  Any idea why? Does the 3008 and 5008 give me full control over all formats (I looked in both owner manuals and couldn't see anything but that doesn't mean squat my 2808 manual doesn't either).


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

pietsch288 said:


> Any chance I can save some $, is the 3008 is "just as good" as the 5008 or perhaps good enough??
> I'm dissapointed enough with my 2808 purchase that I'm scared to spend "all out" on a receiver. As you know the price diff almost allows me to add a used 200wpc outboard amp later if I choose. The only difference I can see between the 3008 and the 5008 are the 32bit dacs and 5watts per channel and Massive Toroidal transformer. thanks rich


Hello,
You really are not losing out on that much by going with the 3008. It still weighs well over 50 Pounds and employs multiple Power Transformers. Like the 5008, the 3008 is a beast.

I would recommend checking out Accessories4less as they have an awesome price on B-Stock 5008's that is cheaper than an A-Stock 3008 at a local store. If it was me, I would rather have a B-Stock 5008 over an A-Stock 3008. While there is not a huge difference, never hurts to have the flagship.
Cheers,
JJ


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## pietsch288 (Sep 10, 2006)

I can't find the b-stock.....help


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## pietsch288 (Sep 10, 2006)

In your OPINION would I be better off with the 3008 (xt32) or the 5007 (more power, 32 bit dacs), for the same money?? I am going to call on the 5008 in the morning but just in case they are sold out....or maybe I shoud wait until some more referb 5008's get there


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

pietsch288 said:


> In your OPINION would I be better off with the 3008 (xt32) or the 5007 (more power, 32 bit dacs), for the same money?? I am going to call on the 5008 in the morning but just in case they are sold out....or maybe I shoud wait until some more referb 5008's get there


Hello,
Tough call. If your Room is relatively acoustically sound, you might not need the advanced Audyssey as much. It is not like MultEQ XT is chopped liver so to speak. XT32 is definitely a big upgrade, but so too is a Toroidal Transformer, and 32 Bit DAC's.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

I read this thread yesterday and I was going to mention the XXX7 series. Your question concerning XT32 is a good one, for I feel that MultEQ-XT is very powerful and it really adds to my system. But, I also found that an ASEQ was needed to assist with my duals, I think the MultEQ-XT helped a lot with duals and it did very well with one sub, however I chose to go with the ASEQ just to have the extra power it has to aid with a dual set up.

Having said all of that I noticed in your sig you have 4 CSU's (SA-WEET!!!), I have read that some people prefer using an ASEQ along with their XT32, but consider the power of the XT32 it may really aid to your setup and the amp package of the 3008 is still beefy. Normally I would say if you have no desire to go with 3D then stay with the best bang for the buck and that is the XXX7 Series however since you don't seem to have an ASEQ but have multiple subs, I'd say go with the 3008 if you can get a good deal.


Note: I see you do have an SMS.

Not sure here....but the XT32 may take away the need of your SMS, I dont know. The SMS pretty much sets your subs for the "sweet spot" no? Audy will set the subs for the entire sitting area and you can measure multiple locations. 

I still feel that the XXX7 Series for the $$ is the way to go, but the more powerful Audyssey in the 3008 may be more beneficial.


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## golfnut (Jan 23, 2009)

The 4311 offers the ability to add wides and heights to your 7.1 system. No one else offers this now. If you ever add wides to your system you will never go back.


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## pietsch288 (Sep 10, 2006)

Is audyssey doing something diff than what yamaha offers?? I had a yamaha that offered the "effects" speakers and it was gimike, but at that time I didn't have any room treatments or audyssey. I currently have my mains 32" off the floor with the horn's being 6ft from the floor....so hight speakers probably wouldn't be needed, and my mains are also 22" from the side walls....so width speakers are not going to work. Not sure where I would put those speakers...... besides I assume I would have to timbre match everything and with rf-7 series speakers even the used stuff is still expensive.

My biggest problem with denon is that I feel a little like they owe me something....nowhere in my manual does it say that with DTS HD/MASTER AUDIO sources you cannot use night mode and/or cinema mode. And that sucks. So now 2yrs after spending 1000.00 on the 2808 I'm buying something else (and loosing a ton of money selling it)... had the manual clearly stated what options are available for each source being played, I would have bought either a diff model or a diff brand. Do I sound bitter??? lol


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

Bitter? Well, you are in Minot...HA! Love the deer hunting up there fwiw.:T

I understand your situation and I agree that sucks, I have Rockets speakers and love them...but we know that story....

Audyssey is no "gimmick" thats for sure, yeah you will find people that dont care for it as with anything but for me and at this time if I had to choose an avr I would pick one with a powerful Audy Solution "MultEQ-XT or XT32". I can always add an external amp if I ever needed more power for my speakers.

Your RF-7's are rated at 102dB @ 2.83 volts/1 meter. :gulp:

The 5007 has more power than a 3008 but the 3008 has a more advanced Audy Solution of XT32 and with your speakers I dont think the 5007 is holding a trump card. On the other hand I love my MultEQ-XT and feel and that for the money since you can really no longer get a 1007 that the best bang for the buck would be the 3007 in your case. It would give you a very powerful amp package "for an avr" and is THX Ultra Cert, MultEQ-XT. 


My 2 pennies anyway.


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## golfnut (Jan 23, 2009)

pietsch288 said:


> Is audyssey doing something diff than what yamaha offers?? I had a yamaha that offered the "effects" speakers and it was gimike, but at that time I didn't have any room treatments or audyssey. I currently have my mains 32" off the floor with the horn's being 6ft from the floor....so hight speakers probably wouldn't be needed, and my mains are also 22" from the side walls....so width speakers are not going to work. Not sure where I would put those speakers...... besides I assume I would have to timbre match everything and with rf-7 series speakers even the used stuff is still expensive.
> 
> My biggest problem with denon is that I feel a little like they owe me something....nowhere in my manual does it say that with DTS HD/MASTER AUDIO sources you cannot use night mode and/or cinema mode. And that sucks. So now 2yrs after spending 1000.00 on the 2808 I'm buying something else (and loosing a ton of money selling it)... had the manual clearly stated what options are available for each source being played, I would have bought either a diff model or a diff brand. Do I sound bitter??? lol


I have not used a 2808 but when I googled it I found a statement on the Crutchfield site that cinema mode is only useable for certain input streams. DTS HD wasn't listed. Maybe the restriction is buried somewhere in the literature, Dnon's manuals are tough reads. There have been a lot of changes in the last 3 years to AVR's. I have a 4311 that replaced a 2309 and find there is no comparison between the two, both in feature set and due to the fact I stepped up in the model line. 

In order to get proper dispersion for wides many rooms will require the wides to be placed along the side walls. The preferred location is at a 60 degree angle from the main listening position while the fronts are preferred at 30 degree. The heights are preferred outboard of the fronts and at a 45 degree up angle. Check this link for a diagram: http://www.audyssey.com/technology/dsx.html

The sound produced by the heights and wides is extracted from the fronts and sides. Most who have tried adding wides won't go back ... even if they are not placed optimally.

I think night mode is gone ... or at least not used much. Audyssey is really superior as a room treatment facillity. And the ability to run Day, Evening, or Midnight variations allows you to adjust the amount soft sounds are enhanced and loud sounds are turned down. XT32 is far superior to previous versions of Audyssey and available on other than Denons I believe. But no one else has 11 speaker capability. The 4311 also drives and eq's separately two subs. The 3311 is a viable alternative if you don't need 9 or more speakers. You could still toy with adding either wides or heights to a 5.1 system.

Audyssey does a pretty good job of timber matching but probably can't replace keeping the added speakers in the same family. I'm using all Def Tec's so I have been able to find a plentiful source of used speakers.


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## pietsch288 (Sep 10, 2006)

The 3311 doesn't have xt32. I was not referring to audyssey xt or xt32 as gimmike (I believe 100% in what audyssey is doing) I was talking about the hight and/or width channels....yamaha used to call them "effect" channels, I was referring to them as gimmike. Looks to me that the 3008-5008-4311 all have xt32 and are somewhat close in price. 


Great news for me.....one of my buddies just picked up a 3008 today and is leaving for vegas for the weekend, he wants me to do the firmware update for him. So its just me and the 3008 till monday 
PS. audyssey doesn't do any timbre matching. It corrects the room problems where you take measurements.... which means you hear your speakers exactely how your supposed to (without peaks/nulls or phase/time domain issues). thanks rich


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## pietsch288 (Sep 10, 2006)

Just a quickie.......I am absolutely blown away by the 3008. I can't hardly believe how much better it sounds. Not even close to the 2808 that (by the way) I have been adjusting re-adjusting and re-re-adjusting it for 3 yrs. Now I'm even more angry. But alas now I can get xt32 ........As far as I'm concerned its between the 3008 and the 5008. thanks rich


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

pietsch288 said:


> Just a quickie.......I am absolutely blown away by the 3008. I can't hardly believe how much better it sounds. Not even close to the 2808 that (by the way) I have been adjusting re-adjusting and re-re-adjusting it for 3 yrs. Now I'm even more angry. But alas now I can get xt32 ........As far as I'm concerned its between the 3008 and the 5008. thanks rich


Glad to hear you are impressed and most importantly you are getting to test it out in your own home! Sa-weet!!!

The only real difference "to me" is the the 5008 has a Toroidal Transformer, yet the weight is the same and they both draw 11.6 amps as does my 1007.

If $$ is really no object or you can get the 5008 at a good price, then there you go...but apparently you like the 3008.


Just FYI, I when I bought my 1007 the reason I picked it was because it drew the same Amps as the upper two, it was within 10 watts of the upper two, it weighed within 3 +/- pounds and other than a better video processor and dacs in the upper two there wasn't enough difference to justify the cost at the time that I purchased the 1007. FWIW my Oppo passes through the 1007, I don't use any of its video processing. 


Of course its your call but I'm not sure if you would reap any more from the 5008 than your would the 3008.

Good luck and I think your going to be happy with either AVR!:T


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## golfnut (Jan 23, 2009)

Sorry, I didn't mean that Audyssey would do timber matching. Only that it seems to reduce the differences. XT32 is a great step forward. I'd still try wides if you get any kind of a chance to do it. The 4311 is going for around 15 at most of the online dealers. But in the end it is all about finding what sound good to you.


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

Well, hearing how you enjoyed the 3008 with your RF-7's I went down stairs this evening, please note that I haven't listened to my speakers in a while....... I went down and put in "The Wall" set the 1007 on (Direct), turned the lights out and closed my eyes....I had a full glass of Schofferhofer and listened...


Two things came to my mind while listening to the whole track of disc one at around -10 on my avr....I love my speakers....and I sure love my 1007.


To the OP....while you have the 3008 in your arsenal.....set it up...then slip in disc one of "The Wall" set it on "Direct"...hit the lights...and I cant wait to hear your thoughts with the RF-7's.


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## pietsch288 (Sep 10, 2006)

Wish I could audition a 4311 cause the 3008 sounds fantastic. The Onkyo manual is just as bad as Denon's. Just so I'm clear..... can I use the hight or width channels with the surround backs (9.1) or do I have to choose either SB or "effects" speakers unless I get an external amp.

Almost all the reviews I read said the firmware update should take close to an hour, when I did this one it took like 15m. I hooked up my dsl line through the ethernet port and followed the manual's directions. Everything seem fine/sounds great.....did I miss something??


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

I think the difference "someone correct me if I'm wrong" is that the Denon can play both heights & wides in addition to a normal 7.1 system thus being able to play 11.1 and the Onk can play either one or the other 9.1. I have yet to run any height/wides with my 1007 as of yet.


As far as the firmware update, I'm not familiar with 3008 & its firmeware or if it is something totally different but my 1007 took no more than 15 minutes to do an update. Mine went through without a hiccup.


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## golfnut (Jan 23, 2009)

Firmware updates on the Denon 4311 have taken about 10 minutes to complete. The 4311 can run all 11 speakers plus two independently equalized subs. It has only 9 internal amps so you need external amps for the front heights. I believe you can select which speakers are active if you have more speakers than amps(At least i was told you could do that with the 3311).


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