# In Lieu of a Calibration...



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

...is it okay to merely copy settings from one input to another?

Let me put it another way: I have calibrated (or, more accurately, "adjusted" user parameters/controls via setup discs) my Sony SXRD rear pro for its HDMI input (for the Blu-ray player), but for the Cable Box input, I've basically left the set in "Standard" picture mode and adjusted Contrast only, as that was the one setting which bothered my wife (who uses the set for daytime soap opera viewing and such); she claimed the whites were "too white" so we dropped Contrast to "70" out of "100"...

But other than that, the controls for the Cable Box are on defaults; I'm wondering, because I didn't hook a player up to the Cable (component) input to calibrate it, if I can just copy the settings from the BD player HDMI input over to the Cable Box input. I know this isn't usually advised, but would this be OK to do short of fully calibrating that Cable input?


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

You really don't have much choice with a cable box because they do not generate test signals. Remember, however, that these will be a starting point and you will have to understand how to adjust on the fly to account for variations in source material.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

lcaillo said:


> You really don't have much choice with a cable box because they do not generate test signals. Remember, however, that these will be a starting point and you will have to understand how to adjust on the fly to account for variations in source material.


As always, caillo, thank you very much.

But are you suggesting that it is indeed okay to copy the settings over from the BD player input to the cable box input? Or should I just leave the settings for the box input on Standard defaults and adjust using broadcast picture material?

I understand what you're saying about cable boxes and their lack of test signals, but some suggest that a DVD or BD player should be connected to the cable input, using whatever connection method for that input (like component in my case), and calibrate using a test disc with patterns and that way, it's adjusted correctly...I'm just not going to do that, that is, disconnect my BD player to connect it to the cable input using totally different cables. So, that's why I was wondering if copying over the results I got for the BD player HDMI input would be suitable, at least on some basic level.


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

Osage_Winter said:


> As always, caillo, thank you very much.
> 
> But are you suggesting that it is indeed okay to copy the settings over from the BD player input to the cable box input? Or should I just leave the settings for the box input on Standard defaults and adjust using broadcast picture material?
> 
> I understand what you're saying about cable boxes and their lack of test signals, but some suggest that a DVD or BD player should be connected to the cable input, using whatever connection method for that input (like component in my case), and calibrate using a test disc with patterns and that way, it's adjusted correctly...I'm just not going to do that, that is, disconnect my BD player to connect it to the cable input using totally different cables. So, that's why I was wondering if copying over the results I got for the BD player HDMI input would be suitable, at least on some basic level.


Yes, on a basic level. A professional calibrator would rely on a test generator. Then tweak by eye from a priority channel (ie: Discovery HD, or pay movie channels, which typically get more bandwidth). Cable companies simply don't provide test signals over their systems with any regularity. The closest thing most consumers have to a test pattern generator is a Blu-ray Disc player with a test disc. Final tweaking must be done with an educated eye. A professional calibrator gains an educated eye from viewing reference images on a regular basis. Over time, a consumer can learn this as well, if they have a calibrated display to watch regularly that behaves close to video standards. We all have to do the best we can with the resources available to us. Your suggestion can work to some degree, in the absence of better instrumentation.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Alan Brown said:


> Yes, on a basic level. A professional calibrator would rely on a test generator. Then tweak by eye from a priority channel (ie: Discovery HD, or pay movie channels, which typically get more bandwidth). Cable companies simply don't provide test signals over their systems with any regularity. The closest thing most consumers have to a test pattern generator is a Blu-ray Disc player with a test disc. Final tweaking must be done with an educated eye. A professional calibrator gains an educated eye from viewing reference images on a regular basis. Over time, a consumer can learn this as well, if they have a calibrated display to watch regularly that behaves close to video standards. We all have to do the best we can with the resources available to us. Your suggestion can work to some degree, in the absence of better instrumentation.
> 
> Best regards and beautiful pictures,
> Alan Brown, President
> ...


Thank You, Alan.

I have followed some of your posts in various forums; are you suggesting here that it is okay to simply copy over the values from another input which has been adjusted via test discs for my cable box input? I understand what you're saying about pro ISF techs and their using test devices and proper broadcast material, but without these resources, it's been difficult to do these adjustments by eye for _me_ personally; I have tried locking onto a PPV or HBO On Demand channel, or even a good HD broadcast like Discovery, but I cannot determine how much brightness, color, sharpness, etc. needs to be dialed in or back using this real world material. 

So I'm wondering if it's ever been done, whereby values for one input are carried over to another when there's no resource for adjusting/calibrating the second input...


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

It is better to use the calibrated settings from a known quality source than to use settings derived through low resolution inputs on the cable box that get manipulated in who knows what manner in the STB. The variance between inputs in the set will be rather low compared to the tinkering with the signal in converting between input types in the box. A pro would use a signal generator, as Alan says, then adjust with a reliably high quality channel to account for differences in the output of the box and generator.


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

Osage_Winter said:


> Thank You, Alan.
> 
> I have followed some of your posts in various forums; *are you suggesting here that it is okay to simply copy over the values from another input which has been adjusted via test discs for my cable box input?* I understand what you're saying about pro ISF techs and their using test devices and proper broadcast material, but without these resources, it's been difficult to do these adjustments by eye for _me_ personally; I have tried locking onto a PPV or HBO On Demand channel, or even a good HD broadcast like Discovery, but I cannot determine how much brightness, color, sharpness, etc. needs to be dialed in or back using this real world material.
> 
> So I'm wondering if it's ever been done, whereby values for one input are carried over to another when there's no resource for adjusting/calibrating the second input...


Copying over can serve as a starting point. Preferably, it would be from another input of the same type. An optical disc player and test disc can be used as a test pattern source, since it offers a variety of outputs and signal types that could mimic your cable box. Since you are so reluctant to do this, you are limiting yourself to a less reliable solution. 

Leonard knows as well as or better than I how fickle any broadcast/cable/satellite programming can be. Those providers are limited to the quality of programs they receive from their sources, then it gets passed through all of their gear and distribution system. 

As I said, you make do with the equipment you have available, until better comes along. Time and experience will provide a general sense of what typical video programs should look like. This accumulated exposure can help you recognize when some element of the picture settings may need adjustment for a particular program. Things aren't as bad as they used to be in the former days of NTSC (aka: "Never The Same Color").


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Thanks for chiming in with more complete responses, Alan. I have been away for the better part of a week at a service conference and training and am catcing up, so my responses have been limited. 

FYI, Alan is probably one of the more experienced people you will find in these matters.


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

lcaillo said:


> Thanks for chiming in with more complete responses, Alan. I have been away for the better part of a week at a service conference and training and am catcing up, so my responses have been limited.
> 
> FYI, Alan is probably one of the more experienced people you will find in these matters.


Thanks for your invitation and encouragement to be more involved in this community. There is certainly no end to the need for consumers to become better educated in what constitutes authentic and superior performance and solutions. The marketing hype jungle is a thick as ever, as is the resulting cynicism in the minds of audio/video hobbyists and consumers. I'll be pleased if I can assist with making this forum a better resource of reliable and elevating answers.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Our goals are precisely to help educate the public with solid, reasonable information, and to avoid hype and the vitriolic noise that is so common on the internet. Your presence is not only encouraged but much appreciated. I do not have the time to expand this forum's discussion regarding calibration and adjustment as I would like to. I invite any professional such as yourself who can contribute to do so. This is one of the fastest growing AV forums on the internet and is one of the most highly respected because we try very hard to maintain a high level of discussion and provide correct information. It takes much more moderation and administrative effort than other forums, but you can be sure of a better result.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Great to see you posting Alan!
Perhaps one or both of you guys could suggest some of the "reliable" channels Leonard mentioned...


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Guys, I'm a bit lost...

If I don't want to connect an optical disc player to the cable box input to calibrate it (with the appropriately connected component cables as will be connecting my box to the HDTV), then can I copy the settings over from the adjusted Blu-ray HDMI input (which have been made with setup discs)? 

Is this better than just leaving the cable input settings for the TV on the factory defaults or trying to do this by eye with broadcast material (which I find VERY difficult and daunting)?


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Yes, it would be better to copy the HDMI settings. It would be better to use similar input types, calibrate the component input using the component signals from the player, IF you are sure that the ranges are correct on the output of the player. There may be minor differences between the HDMI inputs and the component in your set, but likely not much different. More likely are differences between the outputs on your STB, which is difficult to acount for. Remember, all of this is an approximation to start with, if you don't have the proper equipment and the experience to calibrate the set optimally. These minor differences are likely smaller than the difference between your settings adjusting the set visually using a setup disk and a professional calibration.

The variance in gray scale when I adjust a set visually after 30 years of experience is likely greater than the differences between input types.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Thanks, 'Cal.

I'm not dealing with professional grade ISF measuring gear, and only adjust my displays via good setup discs -- one being the Spears & Munsil Blu-ray to verify Brightness (via their Pluge patterns) and set Sharpness (something I cannot do with my DVD setup disc for some reason); given this, and being that I won't swap out the optical disc player (Oppo) to calibrate the cable input, is using the results from the HDMI Blu-ray player input suitable to copy over for the cable box? That's what I'm wondering...

Would this ultimately be better than eyeballing broadcast material or leaving the cable input on basic defaults?


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Have we not answered your question several times? I began my last post with "Yes, it would be better to copy the HDMI settings." It is still only a starting point. Even with a professional calibration you have to consider the signal that you are watching.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

lcaillo said:


> Have we not answered your question several times? I began my last post with "Yes, it would be better to copy the HDMI settings." It is still only a starting point. Even with a professional calibration you have to consider the signal that you are watching.


Gotcha 'Cal. Thank you. 

When you get a chance, can you perhaps explain to me, in some more detail, why you of the opinion that it would be okay to copy over the HDMI input settings for the component cable box input? Just wanted your reasoning and thoughts behind it -- if you feel you haven't already explained it in other such correspondence.

Thank you, again.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Relative to the precision of visually calibrating a set, there really is not much difference between the inputs on most sets, assuming they are configured for video. The slight differences between component and HDMI inputs on most sets are smaller than the differences between some of the STB outputs, which can be unpredictable. Regardless, you don't really have much choice since you can't generate patterns in the box. The settings derived from your disks are the best you will get, again, assuming the settings on the player are correct for video levels. You should see that the output of the box is very close to what you would expect from the player.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

lcaillo said:


> Relative to the precision of visually calibrating a set, there really is not much difference between the inputs on most sets, assuming they are configured for video. The slight differences between component and HDMI inputs on most sets are smaller than the differences between some of the STB outputs, which can be unpredictable. Regardless, you don't really have much choice since you can't generate patterns in the box. The settings derived from your disks are the best you will get, again, assuming the settings on the player are correct for video levels. You should see that the output of the box is very close to what you would expect from the player.


Thank you much. :T


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

lcaillo said:


> Relative to the precision of visually calibrating a set, there really is not much difference between the inputs on most sets


I've never considered that before... Well stated!


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

You have to keep things in context. There may be differences, but you have to consider the whole picture to determine if they are meaningful. This is a common mistake in system analysis and is one of the reasons that there are so many contentious debates in this industry. Context is everthing. As I used to have as my signature...the correct answer is "it depends."


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## Alan Brown (Jun 7, 2006)

lcaillo said:


> You have to keep things in context. There may be differences, but you have to consider the whole picture to determine if they are meaningful. This is a common mistake in system analysis and is one of the reasons that there are so many contentious debates in this industry. Context is everthing. As I used to have as my signature...the correct answer is "it depends."


_"For a mechanic, you sure do an excessive amount of thinking!"_ C3PO to R2D2 'Star Wars: Episode II- Attack of the Clones'


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

It can be a problem sometimes.onder:


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## mechman (Feb 8, 2007)

If you get HDNet, they run the test patterns on Saturday Mornings at 6:30am. I have yet to look at them so I'm not quite sure what there is but I may record them this week and see what they're all about. I believe they just broadcast color bars, crosshatch and a sharpness pattern. But don't quote me on that.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

mechman said:


> If you get HDNet, they run the test patterns on Saturday Mornings at 6:30am. I have yet to look at them so I'm not quite sure what there is but I may record them this week and see what they're all about. I believe they just broadcast color bars, crosshatch and a sharpness pattern. But don't quote me on that.


I've heard about this transmission; thanks mechman. Would you happen to know what channel this is for the West Coast Cox Communications system?


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## mechman (Feb 8, 2007)

Unfortunately I cannot help you there... But I can confirm that the patterns are still being broadcast. :T And the 6:30am is eastern time zone, I don't know if they'd run a different feed later for the west coast or not. :huh:


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

mechman said:


> Unfortunately I cannot help you there... But I can confirm that the patterns are still being broadcast. :T And the 6:30am is eastern time zone, I don't know if they'd run a different feed later for the west coast or not. :huh:


Thank you.


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