# Audyssey Pro with Highly Efficient Speakers: Adventures in Level Setting



## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

I posted much of this information on AVS's Audyssey Pro forum, but thought I would add it here as well.

Over the past few weeks, I have been on an "adventure" figuring out channel level settings on my Denon AVR-A100. What is easy for most folks (no brainer) turned out to be an issue for me, because I have an 11.2 system using a combination of 4 Klipschorns, a Belle Klipsch center and 6 Heresy IIIs - all high efficiency speakers.

When I got the AVR-A100 a little over a year ago, I ran XT-32 and noticed that the Klipschorns and Belle channel levels were set at -12 with the Heresys about 5-6 db above that. The system sounded fine, so I left it alone.

In January of this year, I bought Audyssey Pro. As you know, it made quite a bit of difference in overall sound. Again, with the K'horns, the channel levels bottomed out, but the system sounded great - or so I thought. I left DEQ on and tried mid comp on and off, and decided I liked it off.

I got the bug to add external amps and run the Denon in preamp mode. I went well over the top power wise and added two Emotiva XPA-5s and a UPA-1 mono block for center. The Emotivas have higher gain than some amps, so this made my channel level problems worse. After running 'Pro again and then checking relative channel levels with a RS meter, they were way off. When I manually brought them to match, there was a huge difference in volume between DEQ on and off. Plus, the surrounds were much too loud with DEQ on.

After a few posts on the AVS Audyssey Pro forum, I was convinced that for DEQ to work properly, all channels have to be within the Denon's channel level adjustment range. Manual adjustment just screwed the DEQ up and that was apparently why the surrounds were way too high after manual matching.

Soooo, I ordered 12db attenuators for the 5 K'horn and Belle channels. Levels after running 'Pro again were -2 to -3, so with the Emotivas I was 14 to 15 db off calibration. Then I noticed that 'Pro had set the side Heresys to -12. I had a pair of 6db attenuators and put them in those channels to make sure everything was within the Denon's adjustment range.

So, what did all this do for me? The system sounds more fantastic than ever before. No volume change between DEQ on and off. The system is no longer too bright. Surround envelopment is more cohesive.

I know that many folks won't have this problem, but for owners of high efficiency speakers, check to see if your channel levels are bottomed out. Of course, with the internal amps in the AVR, there is not much you can do about it. But if you are using external amps, the attenuators are very much worthwhile. Here are the ones I bought:

http://www.amazon.com/Harrison-Labs...41B0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1338030825&sr=8-2

They are availabe as 3db, 6db, and 12db for the same cost. Parts Express has some that are much less expensive, but the reviews on them are not favorable.


----------



## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Following your adventures here and elsewhere, it seems that Audyssey, Pro or otherwise, is not a party to the cause at all. The very high (and various) sensitivities of your speakers and amps demands a wider range of level adjustments than your AVR (or, indeed, most AVRs) can handle. Had you measured the channel levels with REW or some other tool you would have come up with the same issue and, probably, the same solution.


----------



## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

Hi, Kal. Yes, that is what I was trying to convey.


----------



## erwinbel (Mar 23, 2010)

I love the look of the Klipschorns!

High Efficiency Speakers: check
11.1: check
Emotiva XPA-5 [2] and UPA-1 [1]: check!

At least, that's the building plan here... I thought the Troels Gravesen designs I am building were high efficient at 95 dB, but those Klipschorns are 105 dB, hence in another league all together. And from what I read on AVS, your room is rather small in comparison to the size of the speakers. I did a rough calculation based on 95 dB / Watt / meter and 128 Watt / channel should be needed to play very loud in our room (107 dB at 4 meter if I recall correctly), so the 200 Watt / channel of the XPA-5/UPA-1 is more than adequate. Our room will be 28 x 23 feet.

So I will probably not run into the issues you did. How did you install those far from small Heresy III floorstanders to/near the ceiling? Are they upside down and/or inclined towards MLP? 

How are the amps connected to the various speakers? I was thinking of using the UPA-1 for the center and one XPA-5 for each L/R leg, thus ensuring that L/R/C separation is perfect and that each large L/R speaker can tap from their respective XPA-5 common power supply... Did you do it that way?


----------



## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

The height Heresys are mounted on wood shelves that are attached to the front wall corners with brackets. I was using RB-81s for height, mounted on 60lb rated Omnimounts, but was not comfortable trusting the Heresys to them, plus no way was I going to drill holes in new Heresys.

One XPA-5 drives FR, FL, SR, SL and SBL. The other one drives FRH, FLH, FWR, FWL and SBR. The UPA-1 is driving the Belle center. All that power is overkill for sure, but there is no way I will clip any amp channel!

The Emo amps are a little noisy when the AVR is muted - residual power supply hum at about the 3rd harmonic. Putting the attenuators between the Denon and the Emos did nothing, so the noise is coming from the amps. Bothers me, but completely inaudible when the system is in use.

If you followed my posts on AVS, you know what I went thru to get the levels set right. I initially thought that setting everything equal using the RS meter would work, but what I did not understand is that DEQ depends on having the levels set within the AVR's adjustment range, which I could not do until adding the attenuators. All of the work was well worthwhile - system never sounded better


----------



## erwinbel (Mar 23, 2010)

Then the XPA-5 powering the FL and FR has to work (slightly) harder then the other IMO. No sweat though...

I have a pair of XPA-1 powering Jamo R909. A hint of transformator hum is indeed audible for about a minute after powering up, not longer and also only audible if not playing music. 

Since the volume control on that set is digital (Weiss DAC2, with 4 output voltage level presets) and needs a lot of attenuation (since Emo amp gain is +32 dB) even with the lowest preset, I had a go with a pair of Rothwell -10dB XLR attenuators. But I felt a whiff of resolution was taken away, so I removed them. They say digital attenuation should be as little as possible. I thought about getting a SilverKnight B&R passive magnetic preamp (these sound better with much attenuation if the reviews are correct). But they do not answer to email quote requests, so I presume they are no longer in business... 

I will probably turn to Emotiva once again for the XSP-1 preamp (need to connect other sources). Thinking of using the HT-bypass for the Weiss DAC2 (keep using the Weiss as a "wired" remote, sitting next to the Mac mini). But this is getting way off topic!


----------

