# First Floorstanding



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

For my first 3 way floorstanding speaker I am going to use
4xDayton ND140-4 5-1/4" Aluminum Cone Midbass Driver(2 for mid and 2 for woofer)
Morel MDT 22 1-1/8" Neodymium Tweeter
Dayton XO3W-700/5.6K 3-Way Crossover 700/5,600 Hz
and its all going to be powered with a Behringer A500 Reference Power Amp 
any suggestions?


----------



## Nismoron (Dec 6, 2009)

I have personally never used these drivers, but am aware of them. The one thing that catches my attention is the rather high 5.6k crossover on the mid. Keep in mind that aluminum cone drivers have some "interesting" cone resonances. I would look into where that particular mid "resonates" and try to crossover below that point. Like I said, I am not intimately familiar with these drivers and may be off base. It is just something to think about in choosing your crossover frequency.
By the way, I have hear nothing but good things about either of those drivers. I am about to build some rather tall 3-way floorstanders myself. I am anxious to see your results.


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

OK thanks, if worse comes to be I will just have to buy a new x-over, oh well, Ill keep you updated on how it comes together too. I am also thinking about putting a separate sub in the box too lol, just for fun. 
What are you gonna use for your 3-way floorstanding?


----------



## Nismoron (Dec 6, 2009)

Dont discount your your choices just on my comments. I was merely saying to look into it.

I am building something like this...
http://reference.canton.de/en/products/reference-1.2-dc.htm
Exept with:
Focal kevlar tweeter
dual Focal 5.25 kevlar mids
dual Focal 10 Aluminum woofers


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

Thats a nice speaker, I am just barely a beginning and I am still learning about all this, This speaker I am going to build I am going and try to copy my Klipsch xf-48s http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/xf-48-overview/ but it may be a little hard for me, but ill still try


----------



## Nismoron (Dec 6, 2009)

Those are pretty cool. I remember seeing some oval woofers at parts express. I've always wanted to play around with some, but have never had good reason.


----------



## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

I saw the same thing about aluminum cones- believe it was by Kevin at diy audio regarding his (and other's) aluminum cones: no worries, just be sure to use a tweeter that can go low enough and use a suitable crossover freq. Lots of people using the daytons for good sound and price.


----------



## Nismoron (Dec 6, 2009)

ironglen said:


> I saw the same thing about aluminum cones- believe it was by Kevin at diy audio regarding his (and other's) aluminum cones: no worries, just be sure to use a tweeter that can go low enough and use a suitable crossover freq. Lots of people using the daytons for good sound and price.


I agree. One of the best sounding speakers that I ever heard was using Aluminum drivers. I dont recall the brand speaker now. It was many years ago. You just have to spend a little extra time and attention on the crossover.


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

Ya i remembered reading that, i just wasn't paying attentiononder:...I was thinking about going with a titanium diaphragm, but the ones that they had available weren't very appeasing to me, I was also thinking about getting a ribbon tweeter, but Ive sadly never heard one before:hissyfit:


----------



## Nismoron (Dec 6, 2009)

WOW are you missing out!!! I love them. Those and electrostats. I've got a little pair of elecgtrostats as my computer speakers that commit blasphemy on. I listen to my MP3's on them.:hide:


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

ya lol, the only speaker place that i have by me is lynns audio and video, the best thing they have is some paradigm signature s6's and I didn't get to really hear those very well cause they were horribly underpowered and to expensive.


----------



## Nismoron (Dec 6, 2009)

I know the feeling. I live in central Alabama. I have to go over to Atlanta to listen to good stuff.
How large are your floorstanders going to be. Looks like mine are going to be in the monstous 5ft range!!!


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

Probebly 4-5ft but since the vas on the drivers that I got are about .36 its gonna be skinny. If I put a seperate 10-12'' subwoofer in it though, that means its gonna slightly bigger then....about 8''(since i am going to sidemount the subwoofer so its dipole)


----------



## Nismoron (Dec 6, 2009)

Check these out. I was looking around on PE's website and saw these. I have not read the article yet, but saw that it used the drivers that you were talking about. I'll read it as soon as I finish posting this...
http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Vht


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

Looking at the Frequency response, it looks very well. I got a different driver from those though. Ya the top section of the speaker, that's what mine is going to look like. On the inside I am going to use more brackets though and more bracing(you can never brace it to much)
Uhg my speakers are in salt lake right now that's like 60miles away from me and they aren't going to deliver them till tomorrow...
When are you going to start your build?


----------



## Nismoron (Dec 6, 2009)

I built the top half in a MTM a few years ago. I am still doing alot of research into baffle diffraction and baffle step compensation right now. It has to do with the width of the speaker front causing variances in frequency response and how to design the front width to work *with* instead of against the crossover. I figure that I have about $1400 in parts already and havent even started the cabinets. Might as well get the cabinets right too! I figure to start the woodworking in early to mid January. The other main obstacle that I am meeting at the moment is my search for a cabinet finish and my fear of veneer. My previous attempts at veneer flattening turned out completely unsuccessful. I want a wood finish, but all of the woods that I like do not come in preflattened or paperbacked varieties. The sides of my speakers are going to be approximatly 24"x60". I'm having a problem finding veneer in that size that I like* and* can afford! I still have to buy the passives for the woofer to mid crossover as well. Looks like around a $100 for that too. Looks like I am going to have close to $2000 wrapped up in these before I am done. And I started building my own to save money.... hahahahahahaha


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

Ya I know what you mean lol, I got some really good finish for these floorstanding that I am going to create from lowe's, its called Bombay Mahogany Gloss, very deep red. Just think though how much the speakers are going to be worth after.
Since I am only sixteen, my restrictions are money(have to save for college and car. The cars probably going to be a new mustang since we already own 2 lol) wattage(parents reasons):hissyfit:
At the same time I am building speakers for kids at school to raise some money, and plus I should be studying right now for AP bio test and Calculus test, lol I am so out of it, I already have taken 6 tests in the past 3 days:rant::rant::rant:


----------



## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

one quick comment, and maybe I missed it if it was mentioned somewhere..

pre-fabbed crossover's won't always give you good results.. in fact, they're rarely ideal. They probably are designed for an 8ohm speaker, but if you look at any driver's impedance curve, you'll notice that not one is exactly 8ohms across. The result is going to cause a non-predictable rolloff of both the woofer and tweeter at the crossover point. The end result might be fine, but it might not be either.

Please don't take this as a "don't do this or you're an idiot" kind of thing, just that I wanted you to be aware of the issues before you invest a lot of $$ and time in your project with a potential end result that isn't what you were looking for.


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

Thanks for that, I still need to practice my soudering skills and need to get up on some information on how to build a crossover first. Ya since I am barely starting I dont have that much experience and Id like to start out easy.
I could also just switch out the crossover once I am done, just having higher grade mats when I am done with it anyway cant I?


----------



## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

There are several issues involved with using prefab crossovers, not the least of which is driver level matching. I have not dug into the specs of the drivers you are using, but how does the sensitivity of the tweeter match up to the mid? I know the Dayton Xovers are generally designed for driver impedance flexibility, meaning they can be used at 4 or 8 ohms depending on how they are wired, but as far as I know that's only for the woofer not for the midrange. What is the impedance of your drivers? Also, if this is your first build I highly recommend you simplify the design and do not use dual woofers or dual mids unless you are copying someone else's proven design. Simpler is almost always better in loudspeaker design, especially when you're starting out.


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

dyohn said:


> There are several issues involved with using prefab crossovers, not the least of which is driver level matching. I have not dug into the specs of the drivers you are using, but how does the sensitivity of the tweeter match up to the mid? I know the Dayton Xovers are generally designed for driver impedance flexibility, meaning they can be used at 4 or 8 ohms depending on how they are wired, but as far as I know that's only for the woofer not for the midrange. What is the impedance of your drivers? Also, if this is your first build I highly recommend you simplify the design and do not use dual woofers or dual mids unless you are copying someone else's proven design. Simpler is almost always better in loudspeaker design, especially when you're starting out.


At the very least you can get Madisound to design and build you the crossover. They use leap which is pretty accurate program. Given their success on many designs I'd say it's a good deal. 

As far as soldering goes. You've no excuse. It's time to practice.


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Nismoron said:


> I built the top half in a MTM a few years ago. I am still doing alot of research into baffle diffraction and baffle step compensation right now. It has to do with the width of the speaker front causing variances in frequency response and how to design the front width to work *with* instead of against the crossover. I figure that I have about $1400 in parts already and havent even started the cabinets. Might as well get the cabinets right too! I figure to start the woodworking in early to mid January. The other main obstacle that I am meeting at the moment is my search for a cabinet finish and my fear of veneer. My previous attempts at veneer flattening turned out completely unsuccessful. I want a wood finish, but all of the woods that I like do not come in preflattened or paperbacked varieties. The sides of my speakers are going to be approximatly 24"x60". I'm having a problem finding veneer in that size that I like* and* can afford! I still have to buy the passives for the woofer to mid crossover as well. Looks like around a $100 for that too. Looks like I am going to have close to $2000 wrapped up in these before I am done. And I started building my own to save money.... hahahahahahaha


Baffle step is best done with an EQ IMO. The problem with using a crossover is that every room is different. You can get close enough, but still you will want an EQ to really dial in the signal.


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

true true, and no this isn't my first build, its my first tower though. Yes you are right on the x-over impedance. That's why I am going to wire the woofers and mids (since both of the drivers are 4 ohms) in series, coming out with 8 ohms. As for the Tweet its 8 ohms, as what the x-over is rated at.
Ya tomorrow or today Ill start soldering this receiver that isn't so good that my dad has.


Edit: From what I have graphed on winISD the dip is around 700hz With about a 3db dip.


----------



## 1Michael (Nov 2, 2006)

Swapping out parts on the crossover with higher quality parts will not help you if the Xover was not designed properly in the first place. My personal recommendation has always been to use a design that someone has tested properly. 
As I stated in another thread I did use a Xover from Madisound once and it was pretty good...but there are far better designs available. I am not trying to dissuade you or anything but I consider prefab Xovers a no no. Of course your mileage may vary.


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

I mean like I can make my own crossover and swap it out, thats what I meant to say.


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

the speakers now gonna be over 60 inches tall lol


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

I have one question, in port air velocity if it is <25ft/sec it starts to chuff right? Also on winISD when you put 2 ports and it says the length has to be 27.58 in is that for each port or do I have to cut that in half since i am using two ports...sorry i just barely got winISD alpha
Does anyone know a good passive radiator to go with the woofers that I have selected cause i just noticed the ones that I was gonna get is out sadly...


----------



## Nismoron (Dec 6, 2009)

lsiberian said:


> Baffle step is best done with an EQ IMO. The problem with using a crossover is that every room is different. You can get close enough, but still you will want an EQ to really dial in the signal.



EQ is not an option for two reasons. First I have never seen a 5 channel eq that I could even remotely afford. Besides, my receiver (and the one I am about to replace it with) do not have a loop output/input for adding an EQ.

Endesereth, the length of port in WinISD is for each port. As you add more ports or increase diameter to get the velocity down, the length increases. It looks like your tower will either need an elbow in the port or you can fire the port out of the bottom of the enclosure and stand the tower up off the floor. Doing this will give you a little boost on your bottom end. Given the small size of the woofers, this might be desireable to you. It all depends on what you listen to and how you listen to it.


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

Ya I figured that I am going to use ports, I am going to elbow them 90 degrees two times, I was drawing a blueprint and I created this section in the back of the speaker that is cut off from the main part of the woofers. Doing this I wont have to add how much room the tubes will take in the speaker. Best of all if you look at it, you wont see it.
When I was thinking of this I was on PE and I found these great PR's that I want to get, but sadly they dont provide them anymore, heres the URL:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-237


----------



## Nismoron (Dec 6, 2009)

Passive Radiators are a whole nother bag of cookies to learn to tune. I've always been scared to try them myself. With ports, you only have the enclosure, and port to tune. With PR's you have the enclosure, then you have to take into account the size of the radiator, the radiator's suspension stiffness as well as the radiators moving mass. I'm sure there is some software out there, but I have never seen any. Actuall, I have never looked either? I'm sure someone else can give you alot more educated info on PR's. I would be the *wrong* one. hahahaha


----------



## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

Another approach to compensating for baffle step is to design the system in such a way that it will naturally compensate rather than to introduce more midrange attenuation into the Xover network. One way to do this is to add a woofer (or choose a woofer that is more efficient than the mid) to raise the output below the baffle step frequency, or to choose drivers with broad enough bandwidth that you can overlap the Xover points to add low end output from the mid to that of the woofer. There are many ways to compensate for edge diffraction besides a typical BSC circuit. 

I also suggest measuring your system in-room before you do anything at all about baffle step. Most BSC calculators will actually over-compensate as they assume anechoic conditions, when in real-world usage much of the "lost" low frequency information will actually be reflected back into the room by the rear wall of the room, and instead of the theoretical -6db reduction it could really be less than -3db in room. And if the system is vented don't forget about the additional dbSPL that will be contributed by port resonance.


----------



## Nismoron (Dec 6, 2009)

I wasn't going to use any compensation in the crossover. I was merely reading up on the effects of baffle width vs frequency response so that I had knowledge of them when designing my speakers. There have been many wonderful sounding speakers that did not take these effects into account in their design. I just though it was worth considering. I think alot of people over analyze their designs and make then way too complicated.

I was in the storage room the other day and pulled out a pair of speakers that I built almost 20 years ago. I had no knowledge baffle width, crossover shelving, or comb filter effects. But I had built a folded Transmission line line array, with 4 of those triangular Bose 4 inch mids (they were free) and the famous Peerless soft dome butterfly tweeter. The only crossover is a cap on the tweeter. They have no bottom end (haha, anyone surprised) but they work wekk with a little dual 8 inch sub that I made a few years ago. I jokingly hooked them up, to just hear how bad they must be, considering what I didn't know at the time. I was pretty stunned. They were very transparent, and had amazing midbass snap to them. Imaging was a little smeared, but overall, I enjoyed listening to them.

They are probably very similar to the speakers that are origianlly being discussed in this thread. They are a TMMMM design. The mids are 2ohm each, so I just seried them for 8 ohms and ran parallel with the 8ohm tweeter.


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

I dont see what you mean...when I tried to put a better woofer in, it just made the gap even bigger..


----------



## Endesereth (Sep 15, 2009)

Nismoron said:


> I wasn't going to use any compensation in the crossover. I was merely reading up on the effects of baffle width vs frequency response so that I had knowledge of them when designing my speakers. There have been many wonderful sounding speakers that did not take these effects into account in their design. I just though it was worth considering. I think alot of people over analyze their designs and make then way too complicated.
> 
> I was in the storage room the other day and pulled out a pair of speakers that I built almost 20 years ago. I had no knowledge baffle width, crossover shelving, or comb filter effects. But I had built a folded Transmission line line array, with 4 of those triangular Bose 4 inch mids (they were free) and the famous Peerless soft dome butterfly tweeter. The only crossover is a cap on the tweeter. They have no bottom end (haha, anyone surprised) but they work wekk with a little dual 8 inch sub that I made a few years ago. I jokingly hooked them up, to just hear how bad they must be, considering what I didn't know at the time. I was pretty stunned. They were very transparent, and had amazing midbass snap to them. Imaging was a little smeared, but overall, I enjoyed listening to them.
> 
> They are probably very similar to the speakers that are origianlly being discussed in this thread. They are a TMMMM design. The mids are 2ohm each, so I just seried them for 8 ohms and ran parallel with the 8ohm tweeter.


I agree, its the same with my dads Klipsch speakers, sorry about the last post I was confused on who was talking to who


----------

