# Dual PB12-NSD/2 overkill?



## Guest

Hello all, I'm new to the shack and need some opinions. Are dual NSD/2's overkill for a 2430 ^3 room? Would a single Plus/2 suffice? I know this is very subjective. SVS has been very helpful in my decision making process. I just don't want to spend the money and not use it to its full potential. Any and all opinions would be greatly appreciated. Also, just like most in this forum, I love the impact of heavy bass for action movies so more is better to me. Thanks for the help.


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## Sonnie

Hello Nick and welcome to the Shack!

I have a pair of PB12-Plus/2's in 1800ft^3 completely sealed. I will not be sending one back anytime soon. As a matter of fact, I'm adding another dual 15" DIY sub in the room to boot. No, definitely not needed, but wanted. Talk about overkill... that's my middle name... :bigsmile:


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## Geoff Gunnell

I run 4 single driver Ultras in 2600 cubic feet with two double door size openings 

What I would do is this: get one /2, and get some EQ -- the REW/BFD combo, an SMS-1 -- something. If you can put some Tri-Traps or similar in your upper corners. THEN add a second /2 if you still think you need one after you get your room 'fixed'.

Consider that the single driver versions of the new 13.x" Ultra will be out in a few months ...


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## mike c

hey geoff, do you have pics of your subs? especially the SB12's? (IIRC you have some)


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## Geoff Gunnell

Actually, Mike, our last camera failed over Christmas '05 -- after my wife and I talked over what kind to get, we realized that with no kids or family close by, we don't really need a camera for anything. Interestingly enough, my wife would rather have sound equipment! She loves music, and is even more thrilled than I am when we get to hear Conrad-Johnson level stuff.


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## mike c

I see, that's ok. i'm kinda collecting pics of stuff I consider getting.

so you're up to 4 SVS subs now right?


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## Geoff Gunnell

I currently have six SVS subs: four PB12-Ultras and two SB12-Plus's.

I've been using the SB12's both as 2ch woofers and with the Ultras in a high-low sub setup. Recently I bought a couple piano black UFW-12's at AV123's 'moving sale' for $599, and I'm in the process of trying them with the Ultras.


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## mike c

wow geoff, very nice setup!

if you don't mind, I would like to ask your opinion re: the SB12. 
most of the reviews I read conclude that, "if you have the space, just get a bigger SVS sub"
so would you say (FOR MUSIC) that the SB12 doesn't bring anything better to the table than say your Ultra?

what about your opinion on the SB12 vs. PB12 NSD? SB12 vs. PB12 Plus? (all for music, not HT)


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## Geoff Gunnell

A subjective answer: the SB12 does transients better -- plucked strings, jazz drum set. The Ultra does longer duration tones better -- electric bass, organ -- and large drums.

I've never heard a PB10, but many mention it's a good choice for music -- read Wayne's reviews here of the PB10 and the SB12.

It's tough to judge for you between, say, the SB12-Plus and the PB12-NSD, if your room is not large and you only listen to music. Unless you can listen to one or both nearby, I'd order both and pay return shipping on the one you like least.


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## mike c

return shipping for me would be killer  I reside in the Philippines

when I want to try something, I have to buy it.

thanks for the info!


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## Guest

Thanks for the reply guys. Room "fixing" is a high priority for me. After the sub purchase, that's next. I currently have no low end treatment in my room. My dimensions are good so that should limit problems. I've just never had a good sub so I'm not sure what to expect. I'm running two mediocre ones now.


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## Geoff Gunnell

Mike, links to an audio forum in Australia and one in Singapore where you might enquire about closer options may be all I can provide:
http://www.dtvforum.info/
http://www.echoloft.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi


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## drdoan

nick, keep us updated when you get new subs. The experience of going from average subs to great subs is a real kick in the pants. You will wonder how you ever got by. There is nothing like feeling that low bass in your chest. Have Fun, Dennis


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## Geoff Gunnell

Powerful sub: "I'll exite every room resonance you've got!"
Puny sub: "What's a room resonance?" 

OK, so your room resonances are the same in both cases -- but subjectively speaking the peaks and nulls (especially the peaks -- ouch!) seem to be more pronounced when well powered.

If you don't have REW and an SPL meter yet this would be a good time to get that set up behind you before a sub arrives. 

As far as your choice between the NSD/2 and the Plus/2 -- for what you describe of immersive action soundtrack bass I'd guess you are going to want 4 12" drivers -- or let's put it this way, more than two 12" drivers -- eventually if not sooner. So I'd tend to advise you toward the NSD/2.

But the ultimate budget this way would be about $2k for two NSD/s, about $200 for meter, BFD, and cables, and several hundred minimum just to kill your upper corners:
Four Tri-Traps from GIK Acoustics, a sponsor here, will run you over $500:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/product_info.html#5
Or you can use three 2'x2'x4" panels from ATS in each corner -- with the flame retardant and open backed options, about $100 @ corner: http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24x24x4--1007.html
The budget option, four much smaller Corner Busters from Echo Busters, about $200:
http://www.echobusters.com/pages/pricing.html#spacials

If you will ultimately be able to spend in the $2500 ballpark that's the way I'd go, otherwise just get one Plus/2. YMMV etc.


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## Guest

Great info. Thanks for the links. I'll let you know what happens and probably need more advice in the near future.


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## Geoff Gunnell

If you need a meter, Sonnie has six left:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/28814-post102.html


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## Guest

I've got the good old RS analog, but thanks again.


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## Vader

Nick,

How close to reference to you tend to get? My HT is about 3100 ft^3, and I listen on average about 10-12 dB below RL. I am running dual 20-39 cylinders (20Hz tune), which is basically the equivilent to a PB12 Plus/2 (running with one port bung) above 30 Hz. I have plenty of headroom (if I ever ran RL, that might be a different story), and as your room is smaller, would have to vote for a single PB12 Plus/2. Remember that the 12.3 drivers also have significant performance advantages over the NSD (I read somewhere that it would take nearly two NDS to equal a single 12.3 - but take that with a grain of salt). If your budget allows, also consider dual cylinders (or dual single-driver boxes: PB12 Plus), which have an SPL advantage over the dual driver boxes below 30Hz (up to 4-5 dB in the 18-22 Hz band).


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## Guest

Hey Derek,

8-10< RL. We pm'ed at HT forum. I was checking to see what the fellas over here thought. I'm still back and forth between dual 20-39, dual nsd/2, or single Plus/2. The extension from 4 12" would be great but I think you're right about the + driver. Decisions, decisions. If I could go over the $1900 dual plus/2 would be the answer. Could I just mail you a check and you could make the decision for me?  Well, what would be the fun in that?


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## Blaser

Appearantly it is a matter of Dual NSD/2 over Dual plus. Prices are quite the same... Maybe Ed or Tom could inform about the differences...

B rgds
Blaser


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## mike c

NickS, sorry for hijacking your thread (without even addressing your question).

I have a 2600 cu.ft. room, a single 12" sub does perfectly well. I'm not discouraging you from getting better, I'm telling you to get TWO subwoofers instead of a single two driver subwoofer.

If I were you, I'd pick a single PB12 Plus for now ... (hopefully buy a second one when you can afford it) rather than using a two driver enclosure. the single driver enclosures simply give you more options for tuning, placement (when you have two), more SPL, etc.

edit: your dual cylinder choice is pretty good too, also consider the 16-46, if it's off budget, remember you can buy one now, and buy one later.


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