# Does the high end stuff make a big difference?



## MLGamer (Feb 10, 2013)

Hello one and all!

I am purchasing the following components for my home theater (questions to follow):

LF & RF: Martin Logan Ethos
Center:Martin Logan Stage X
Subwoofer: Martin Logan Descent i
SL, SR, RL, RR: Martin Logan Vanquish

Now for the questions...
1. One of the authorized dealerships indicated a high end receiver is a must for high end speakers. His recommendation is the Arcam FMJ AVR450. This puppy runs around $5000!!!! Is this really necessary? I would think a mid range receiver like the Marantz SR7008 would do the job nicely. Thoughts?

2. Same dealer, same line (expensive): The same dealer indicated I needed high end wire for a noticeable difference in sound. His recommendation: Audioquest Rocket 44. This stuff costs around $700 for a 20 foot run. Now I have been on this forum for awhile and it seems to be a mantra that wire is wire. Please confirm.

Thanks for your time and consideration,

Matthew


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Receivers do have sound characteristics, believe it or not, but I don't see you needing 5 grand to amplify that setup. Electrostatic speakers, in general, require quite a bit of power but the spec's on ML's website say the Ethos have a sensitivity of 92dB into a 4 ohm load. That indicates to me it won't require a tremendous amount of power to drive those. Even with that I'd look for an AV receiver with a solid 100 watt rating, preferably all channels driven.

To an extent, wire is wire. There are different qualities -- and like everything else you never buy the cheapest stuff -- but a good 12 gauge wire should be fine. For sure you don't need anything costing $35 a foot. Since you're putting together a very nice system you should consider something a least decent, perhaps like this.


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## selden (Nov 15, 2009)

To first approximation, no, they won't make any difference. People argue over whether ARC is better than Audyssey XT32. ARC does seem to have more adjustments.

Similarly, getting expensive speaker cables does nothing useful that commodity 13 gauge speaker wouldn't do for you. But it won't hurt the audio, either. Since they're made of only a few solid wires, I'd expect the Audioquest cables to be somewhat harder to bend, if that matters.

However, if you get everything as a package deal, you should be able to get a substantial discount. Cables have a _very_ large profit margin, for example. Sometimes equipment manufacturers have a limit on how much of a discount is allowed. When everything is bought as a package, though, the overall price can be much less than if you purchased the items individually. E.g. the equivalent of getting the cables for free. Or better.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Sonnie is using the Denon 4520 and he got rid of his power amps... Just goes to show a nice receiver will do the job. I hooked up some QSC power amps to my ML Sequels years ago and was blown away at how they sounded. So IMO a power amp can make a difference but will you be happy saving the money you save by buying a less expensive receiver... I think so and the Denon is fine receiver that will provide all the power you need. If you absolutely must have the best and loudest then I would say go with external power amps. As far as speaker wires... I qould just get a nice 12 gauge speaker wire from Monoprice. If you want them to look exotic just get some sleeves and make them look custom.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Is there a difference? Yes, there is. However, it is so subtle that I doubt most people would be able to hear a difference. Most products that us regular joes (pun intended :bigsmile can afford will get you 90% of the way there. It is that last 10% that costs you an arm and a leg.

I would say save yourself a load of cash and go with a receiver as described by Jim above.


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## selden (Nov 15, 2009)

FWIW, the Marantz SR7008 is the equivalent of the (less expensive) Denon X4000 but with somewhat different analog circuitry and mechanical design. Both are limited to 9.2 speaker channels.

The 4520 can drive up to 11.2 speaker channels (if you add an external stereo amp) but requires analog inputs for its Zone 2 output. The 7008 and x4000 can downconvert digital sources for use in Zone 2.


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## MLGamer (Feb 10, 2013)

All,

What about the DTR 80.3? Plenty of power and features...thoughts?

~Matthew


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## cavchameleon (Jan 7, 2008)

I'm with the rest here, decent wire (cheap) is good. A decent receiver will work fine. The DTR 80.3 as you're asking would be great with your speakers and has the latest Audyssey XT32 (and all the power you would need).


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## cavchameleon (Jan 7, 2008)

BTW, nice speaker choice!!! Post some pics and your impressions once set up.


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## MLGamer (Feb 10, 2013)

cavchameleon said:


> BTW, nice speaker choice!!! Post some pics and your impressions once set up.


Thanks! I am absolutely *STOKED* about my new system. I am finishing the entire basement and the HT is my, not my wife's, most exciting feature. Once more, I have never had a home theater before. I plan on doing some of the work (system wiring) myself. If anyone out there has any wiring tips, bring it on! Attached are layouts of the home theater and the basement I created using an architecture program.

Thanks ALL!

~Matthew


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

I think the 80.3 is a great choice. I have a friend who uses one with his Paradigm Signature 8 system and he loves it - having XT32 is such a bonus IMO.

As far as wiring, plan on wiring for more connections than you will ever think you need. For example, my room is wired for 11.5 speakers as well as connections for zone 2 speakers in my workshop. I ran conduit to every point so that I could swap wires out if needed. I also ran an HDMI connection to the front of the room and a line to the seating area for butt kickers - again using conduit. I also have 3 CAT6 connections around the room as well as 8 outlets. Two of the outlets are wired so that each has its own breaker - these were set aside for powered subs. I also put an outlet near where the screen is in the corner so I could do motorized curtains should I ever choose to.

I am sure I am missing something...


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## fmw (Aug 11, 2013)

I would stay away from that dealer. He doesn't have your interests at heart. 

The difference in sound between various AVR's results from different room calibration routines. When they are run direct without processing and compared with bias controlled tests, they all sound the same. Look for reliability and the features you want and will use. 

Wire has nothing at all to do with sound quality. There are some issues relative to signal loss over distance but the brand of wire is not an issue. Just get the right type for the application.

Looks like you have some nice stuff. Good luck with the system.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I echo the rest of the responders, no need to spend $5k on an AVR.
The only reason not to use the Monoprice wire that was linked to previously is if it will be inside the walls, in that case get this http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901 

I can't really knock a hifi shop trying to sell the most profitable gear they can, they are there to make money.
Where I take exception is when they give false or misleading reasons to push a customer to those items.


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## cavchameleon (Jan 7, 2008)

ALMFamily said:


> I think the 80.3 is a great choice. I have a friend who uses one with his Paradigm Signature 8 system and he loves it - having XT32 is such a bonus IMO.
> 
> As far as wiring, plan on wiring for more connections than you will ever think you need. For example, my room is wired for 11.5 speakers as well as connections for zone 2 speakers in my workshop. I ran conduit to every point so that I could swap wires out if needed. I also ran an HDMI connection to the front of the room and a line to the seating area for butt kickers - again using conduit. I also have 3 CAT6 connections around the room as well as 8 outlets. Two of the outlets are wired so that each has its own breaker - these were set aside for powered subs. I also put an outlet near where the screen is in the corner so I could do motorized curtains should I ever choose to.
> 
> I am sure I am missing something...


This cannot be understated!!! ALMFamily is correct, do all the possible wiring now, during your build. Extra is always better than not enough. If possible, run conduit, then you'll be future proof (at least where wires may need to be changed - like HDMI cables. Speaker wires are pretty much good to go, as stated though run for 11.XX just in case.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I agree about the prewiring too.
There can never be to much.


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## jon96789 (Mar 21, 2013)

The problem about pre-wiring is that standards change... When I built my media room, I had a NEC 852 three-tube CRT projector... It used a RGB cable with twist connectors. When I upgraded to a Marantz VP12S3 projector, i had to rewire the attic with a DVI cable... In Hawaii, attics are low (we have no snow) and tight... climbing in the rafters is not an easy task.

I then upgraded to a JVC RS-1 with HDMI. Again, I had to rewire the attic. I can tell you it was NOT fun, even though the run was only 20 ft across the ceiling. If I want to upgrade to a 4K projector in the future, I can expect to run another cable with a higher bandwidth... I am not looking forward to that.


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## cavchameleon (Jan 7, 2008)

jon96789 said:


> The problem about pre-wiring is that standards change... When I built my media room, I had a NEC 852 three-tube CRT projector... It used a RGB cable with twist connectors. When I upgraded to a Marantz VP12S3 projector, i had to rewire the attic with a DVI cable... In Hawaii, attics are low (we have no snow) and tight... climbing in the rafters is not an easy task.
> 
> I then upgraded to a JVC RS-1 with HDMI. Again, I had to rewire the attic. I can tell you it was NOT fun, even though the run was only 20 ft across the ceiling. If I want to upgrade to a 4K projector in the future, I can expect to run another cable with a higher bandwidth... I am not looking forward to that.


If there is a run of cable that will be changed often (not speaker cable, etc), but the likes of HDMI, it may be wise to run conduit one time from point to point (area of source to display). Then it'll be very easy to change cables at will.


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