# Improving my set-up especially 2 channel sound



## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

Sorry for the long post but since its my first, I felt a little more background may be in order than normal. I am wanting a doublecheck on my set-up, and maybe some recommendations on how I can improve my 2-channel music sound. I'm not necessarily looking to spend any more cash at this time (but if you feel strongly something should be changed, feel free to throw out the suggestion), mainly wanting to know if there's improvement or something worth trying. I don't have the best hearing anymore and I have a very large room where my HT/audio gear reside. So, i guess I'm saying this to try to manage expectations a bit. 

The room is 30x30 with one large opening (dual staircase). My listening area is mainly in a 15x15 "corner" of this larger open room. From a music standpoint, I like it louder than most and like my bass. My tastes mainly center on classic rock to bluesy-rock (i.e. Stevie Ray Vaughn and John Mayer).

My NAD 765HD AVR currently drives the Polk CSi 5 center, Polk FXi A6 surrounds and the RTi 12 HFs. I drive the RTi 12 LFs with two seperate NAD C270 amps bridged (300W continuous). I just recently replaced a Polk PSW505 sub with the PSA VX-15se. Even though I have 7,000+ cubic feet of space, I am hearing and feeling a definite improvement on the low end. I do plan to add a second PSA XV-15se in the next 12 months or so to help with the room dynamics. 

Althoug I am not unhappy by any stretch with the HT performance, one area I'm still not quite clear on is how to treat the mains as it relates to integrating the sub into the mix. Some say let the VX15se handle everything low, others say flex some of the RTi12's low muscle (its ported with three 7" woofers) which is what i've been trying to do by using the C270's. I'm just not sure where I should set the crossover. I don't want to diminsh what the XV15 gives me but I just feel there has to something worthwhile I can be getting from the towers on low end. if I use the 12s low am I possibly creating problems with concellation? would something around 50hz be more suitable? If i should just let the xv15 handle everything low, am I wasting time, power and money biamping the towers with the two C270s? 

From a music perspective, I have plenty of loudness and I do keep the XV15se in the 2-channel set-up. Seeing as how I have (imho) plenty of clean power available, is there anything obvious I could do to improve sound clarity or am I basically at the limits of the RTi12s? Here is where I seem to think there is improvement to be made. I realize there are much better imaging speakers out there but I have what I have! My source is usually the Oppo BDP93.


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## Insearchof (Oct 21, 2014)

Just a couple of questions to clarify.

Where do you currently have the crossover set?
Each RTi12 has a bridged C270 driving it?
Are the speakers in ideal locations for 2 channel listening?
Is the sub in its best spot?
I assume you use the HDMI out on your Oppo but what is the quality of the material? Mp3, lossless?


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

480dad said:


> I don't have the best hearing anymore and I have a very large room where my HT/audio gear reside.
> 
> The room is 30x30 with one large opening (dual staircase). My listening area is mainly in a 15x15 "corner" of this larger open room. From a music standpoint, I like it louder than most and like my bass. My tastes mainly center on classic rock to bluesy-rock (i.e. Stevie Ray Vaughn and John Mayer).
> 
> Some say let the VX15se handle everything low, others say flex some of the RTi12's low muscle (its ported with three 7" woofers) which is what i've been trying to do by using the C270's. I'm just not sure where I should set the crossover. I don't want to diminsh what the XV15 gives me but I just feel there has to something worthwhile I can be getting from the towers on low end. if I use the 12s low am I possibly creating problems with cancellation?


Your system sounds great and at this stage I would not change a thing. It seems like you need help with hearing what your system is doing in that room.

I would get a $75 UMIK-1 UBS mic and download REW (free) from this site and start seeing what is going on in your room.

Soon you will see how your mains are in your room on the low end and you will really be able to figure out what crossover to use for 2 channel. Your room is open and I'm guessing it's off to one side so reflections will be a problem on one side. With a bit of testing and REW you will begin to see your room's big picture.

The next time you bring out your wallet will be to get some panels to control your first reflection points. This will clean up your imaging. With that size of room you will not "need" bass traps. but you will know for sure with REW.


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## GCG (Aug 22, 2013)

Location, Location, Location

If the RTi12s and the sub aren't ideally placed much of the other effort could be for naught. Proper placement of front speakers is a must for 2 channel quality. The same goes for sub placement but I prefer getting the fronts setup optimally first and then integrate the sub. That tight in a corner of a larger room will probably be tricky. You've got a wall on one side and a big open area on the other. Do you by chance "face" the corner at the listening position?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Welcome to the forum, 480dad! You're listening area seems nice indeed. 

Do I understand correctly that you want to improve 2-ch performance in a 5.1 system? If so, then the easiest and cheapest method is to experiment with relative speaker positions. Can you post a floor plan of your current setup to help us see what options you may have. And speaking of options, are you able to move speakers/gera around without worrying about WAF (wife-acceptance factor)?

It would help to keep your mains symmetrical from left to right. Each should be spaced a different distance from their respective side walls than from the ones behind. And other objects should be placed as symmetrically as possible--don't put a large bookcase near the left speaker and a glass curio cabinet near the other. For that matter, anything between the speakers detracts from imaging, most of all a big reflective TV screen. EQ and DSP can only go so far, so help them out by getting the layout as best you can.

Another tip from experience. Nothing helps sound-stage, imaging, and bass articulation like well chosen and properly applied room treatment. Your room is large, so try to make room for large bass traps at least in the corners from floor to ceiling; and move your listening position away from the back wall where bass is in it's highest pressure zone. Treat the first, and possibly the second, reflection points between the front mains and the prime listening position. Consider treating the ceiling as well.

Sorry, but can't comment on crossover or bi-amping and will leave that to someone experienced in those areas. A second sub will definitely help even-out the low-frequency response. Have you taken any measurements or are you interested in learning how? Basics aren't difficult and can be found on this forum in the REW thread.

Hope this helps!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Large spaces like yours are going to have its issues particularly because you say is basically a perfect square. Room treatment is definitely one thing that should be looked at and so should placement of the speakers. 
There is no substitute for a good sub in a space like that. Again placement of this sub is crucial as to how it will function. A crossover of no higher than 80Hz is where you need to start. 
Bi-amping speakers yields very little if any gain so I would not go that route.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Blacklightning said:


> ...With that size of room you will not "need" bass traps. but you will know for sure with REW.


"Need" being the key word here. Sound is subjective and bass is no exception. Some people prefer bloated or boomy bass. Fine, no problem. But if _480dad_ is after low-freq pitch definition and "slam," then speaker positioning and another sub may not be enough. As you said, REW will help you know for sure.

Be careful, though, in thinking that a "big" room doesn't need trapping. A "big" room may support a lower fundamental, but its harmonics can cause problems. From the OP's partial dimensions and volume, I'm guessing 8ft ceilings. In that case, the room will support about a 20Hz note, but the first three harmonics will form standing waves at 38Hz, 57Hz, and 75Hz (albeit at increasingly reduced amplitudes).

To make matters worse, two of the room's dimensions are the same. That means they will each contribute an equal amount of energy if pushed into resonance. That makes certain frequencies especially hard to tame.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

Insearchof said:


> Just a couple of questions to clarify.
> 
> Where do you currently have the crossover set? Tried both AVR settings--currently "small". default at 80hz?
> Each RTi12 has a bridged C270 driving it? I am biamping the RTIs. each RTi12 has a its own C270 driving only the low freqs. The NAD AVR is driving the hi freqs.
> ...


Comments embedded above.



Blacklightning said:


> Your system sounds great and at this stage I would not change a thing. It seems like you need help with hearing what your system is doing in that room.
> 
> I would get a $75 UMIK-1 UBS mic and download REW (free) from this site and start seeing what is going on in your room.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think my hearing ability is the weak link. I was holding out hope that "when I heard it, I'd know it"...if that makes any sense. Going the measurement route is probbaly the only way I'm going to dial it in. 



GCG said:


> Location, Location, Location
> 
> If the RTi12s and the sub aren't ideally placed much of the other effort could be for naught. Proper placement of front speakers is a must for 2 channel quality. The same goes for sub placement but I prefer getting the fronts setup optimally first and then integrate the sub. That tight in a corner of a larger room will probably be tricky. You've got a wall on one side and a big open area on the other. Do you by chance "face" the corner at the listening position?


I don't face the corner, if you think of the large 30x30 divided into 4 equal areas (15x15), my gear is centered in one of the "quadrants" as I have a built-in enetertainment center. To make matters worse, the only other "wall" besides the back wall my entertainment center is built into in this listening area is quarter-moon shaped bay-window-like area for extra seating which is all windows vs. a "wall". so the 4 sides are one "traditional" wall (back wall), one side of windows in a semi-circle design and the other 2 wide open. 

Sounds like to me my listening area is more of the problem than my gear. I've thought about treating the room but thats a new concept to me from analysis to material to the where & how. But it makes sense that its something I need to look into, especially hearing how it can impact the imaging.

if it helps, my mains are ~10' apart and ~6-8" from the back wall. The sub is currently 6" from the back wall and near to the right main. My main listening position is ~14' from each main and, as I said above, they are toed directly to my listening position.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Welcome to the forum, 480dad! You're listening area seems nice indeed.
> 
> Do I understand correctly that you want to improve 2-ch performance in a 5.1 system? If so, then the easiest and cheapest method is to experiment with relative speaker positions. Can you post a floor plan of your current setup to help us see what options you may have. And speaking of options, are you able to move speakers/gera around without worrying about WAF (wife-acceptance factor)?
> 
> ...


yes, i really like my 5.1 sound. BlackHawk Down, LOTR, etc sound awesome to me and I even feel the really low bass events which I wasn't sure I would in this big room. Its the 2 channel music I don't seem to be as excited about. I'm having trouble with the imaging and clarity. I will try to put together a floor plan tonight and figure out how to upload assuming forum lets me being a newb. Its hard to explain this silly room in words.

I do think I'm going to be limited in placement options due to both house layout and WAF issue. I have a fireplace & hallway in one 15x15 "quadrant", a pool table in another, and a huge bricked bar area filling the other. the more I try to explain this the more I think I'm fighting a losing battle!!

Nothing placed between the mains except the electronics incl TV in the entertainment center (sub too). the ceileing is finished, not a drop ceiling.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

tonyvdb said:


> Bi-amping speakers yields very little if any gain so I would not go that route.


Can you explain? I've always read my mains took alot of power to really open up and sing. My approach was to put alot of power to them, especially the low side. Since they are 90db efficiency, I like it fairly loud, and 14' distance to my LP, I always felt I needed alot of clean power. So, you would drive the main high & lows with just one amp, namely 150w per speaker vs. biamping where I'm using 150w amp for the highs and 300W for the lows? (pers side)


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ok, so speakers take ____ amount of power. The tweeters require no more than 5-10watts Max to get to full output. Mids/lows might use 15-35Watts max and if your using a crossover setting of 80Hz (recommended) your really not needing more than 50Watts to drive the entire speaker at normal listening levels. Bi amping is only splitting up the highs and the lows so your only offloading at the most 10Watts off the amp.


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## Insearchof (Oct 21, 2014)

The RTi12's are front and rear ported.
Can you move them off the wall any more? 
How many degrees toed in are they? They may not need to be pointed directly at your LP. IMO, too much toe in with certain speakers isn't a good thing.
Is either main close to a corner on either side?
You may want to try the sub in a front corner if it's an option. It may sound too boomy but it may be worth a listen.
I would drop the crossover to 60 and skip the biamp. Let the bridged NAD amps run the highs and lows.
I have heard the A9's (very similar to your speakers) with a 3 channel Emotiva @ 200 watts RMS and they sound (even in a large, odd shaped room) impressive. 
Your 300 watt amps with the speakers crossed over at 60 should sound great. The crossover isn't a brick wall but you aren't tasking the speakers with any heavy lifting.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

Insearchof said:


> The RTi12's are front and rear ported.
> Can you move them off the wall any more?
> How many degrees toed in are they? They may not need to be pointed directly at your LP. IMO, too much toe in with certain speakers isn't a good thing.
> Is either main close to a corner on either side?
> ...


I really appreciate all the help. I've already learned alot, believe me.

I hope this file upload thing works.








I could move the mains off the wall maybe a couple more inches. otherwise, the left will stand out beyond the fireplace base. not a big deal, just a WAF thing. as you can see from my layout, i dont really have alot of options to move stuff around. 

I dont know the exact angle they are toed in. but each speaker corner is precisely the same distance away from the wall as the other and if the tweeters could shoot laser beams at me, they hit me right between the eyes. 

hopefully from my crude diagram you can see left main in the corner of fireplace/wall, right main as far to the corner as it can go but its not really a corner due to the semi-circle window-lined seating area.

Roger that on the cross-over and nixing the bia-amp. I just didn't want to underpower the drivers and have things start to clip when I turn the volume up. I will just run each speaker from its own NAD amp. BTW, here's the RTI 12 power spec "Recommended Amplifier Power 50-500 watts per channel". What would you expect me to gain by eliminating the bi-amp and running them just from a single amp? cleaner sound? 

one thing i'm hoping you guys might be able to is recommend where I might put some wall treatment...i tried to note windows, doors, wall material, halls, etc.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

Ha!! I think the diagram worked! thats the accomplishment of the day for me.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

480dad said:


> Ha!! I think the diagram worked! thats the accomplishment of the day for me.


 lol! Time to punch out! A rule of thumb I remember is at the LP, you should be able to just barely see the inside edge of your speakers. That will leave your tweeters firing about 3-4' behind you. I used a laser but the inside edge thing should be a good starting point.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

480dad said:


> BTW, here's the RTI 12 power spec "Recommended Amplifier Power 50-500 watts per channel". What would you expect me to gain by eliminating the bi-amp and running them just from a single amp? cleaner sound?


You gain nothing. Unless you have separate crossovers and eqs for the highs and lows otherwise when bi-amping it is really doing nothing. In a way speaker companies giving bi amp capabilities on speakers is a bit of a gimmick as it achieves nothing unless you have alot of extra gear in the loop.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

Ok, thanks Tonyv. I gotcha.

How do you guys feel about wireless sub kits to help optimize placement? Tom V didn't seem worried about wireless latency due to the distance or the below 20 hz cutoff. To get from the back of gear to my far wall where my surrounds are, my interconnects have to be around 60-70 feet. If I were to add a second sub or find things sound better with my current sub in this general vicinity, wireless would be awfully convenient.

Any other thoughts on my setup and placement overall?


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## Insearchof (Oct 21, 2014)

That's not an easy room to work with!
I'm thinking about a wireless solution for a 2nd sub in my room as well so can't give you any meaningful input there. There's a Dayton kit on PE I'm considering.
I see you have the sub placed near the center of your front sound stage. Depending on the subs I have tried/heard, I personally prefer to place a single sub in nearly the same spot. From my ears and in my room that spot anchors the sound better, is generally smoother and less boomy than corner placement. Obviously your room and ears may be different but it may something to listen for while shuffling the sub around.
I agree with Willis7469 regarding the angling of the front L+R. Try to aim the tweeters a bit behind you.
I might focus on working with your mains and getting that as good as possible before adding the sub placement variable.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

Insearchof said:


> That's not an easy room to work with!


Yeah, I'm figuring that out! I spent a little time looking at the REW stuff last night and I'll admit, it seems a little daunting. To be honest, not sure I have the time and brains to figure it all out, interpret what it means and then get it addressed, but I'll take a closer look over the weekend.

Things were fine until my 20 yr old son decided he wanted to get into vinyl and build a system for himself. Sort of gave me the fever again.


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## GCG (Aug 22, 2013)

480dad said:


> Ok, thanks Tonyv. I gotcha.
> 
> How do you guys feel about wireless sub kits to help optimize placement? Tom V didn't seem worried about wireless latency due to the distance or the below 20 hz cutoff. To get from the back of gear to my far wall where my surrounds are, my interconnects have to be around 60-70 feet. If I were to add a second sub or find things sound better with my current sub in this general vicinity, wireless would be awfully convenient.
> 
> Any other thoughts on my setup and placement overall?


I had the Rocketfish kit at one time and it was acceptable. Lag may tax the distance limits on the AVR setup so check that for your make/model. Other than needing to re-sync occasionally (power outages and such) it seemed to work well.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

480dad said:


> I could move the mains off the wall maybe a couple more inches. otherwise, the left will stand out beyond the fireplace base. not a big deal, just a WAF thing. as you can see from my layout, i dont really have a lot of options to move stuff around.
> 
> I dont know the exact angle they are toed in. but each speaker corner is precisely the same distance away from the wall as the other and if the tweeters could shoot laser beams at me, they hit me right between the eyes.
> 
> ...


Thanks for following up with the diagram! This is much easier now, but still a challenge as _Insearchof_ already pointed out. 

You're asking a lot of your system to do double-duty as both a high-fidelity stereo rig and a home theater system. They have different requirements. But it's not impossible, even in a room like yours. Treat the surfaces at the first and second reflection points if you can. Use reflective tape, or have a friend walk a mirror around the room. You should treat any spot where the tweeter's reflection from either speaker can be seen. You're already off the back wall, so that's not a problem.

Also, when listening in 2-channel mode, cover reflective surfaces between the LP and the speakers with a blanket. In your case, this means the TV and the coffee table. anything that interferes with preserving spatial cues needs to be addressed.



480dad said:


> Ok, thanks Tonyv. I gotcha.
> 
> How do you guys feel about wireless sub kits to help optimize placement? Tom V didn't seem worried about wireless latency due to the distance or the below 20 hz cutoff. To get from the back of gear to my far wall where my surrounds are, my interconnects have to be around 60-70 feet. If I were to add a second sub or find things sound better with my current sub in this general vicinity, wireless would be awfully convenient.
> 
> Any other thoughts on my setup and placement overall?


Referring back to stereo mode, are you running the sub at the same time? It's hard to integrate a sub into a stereo landscape unless it was designed for the mains to begin with. Turn it off for stereo listening. *Experiment, experiment, experiment with main speaker positioning and toe-in.* Find a compromise that sounds good to you. Psychoacoustics is sometimes more important than raw scientific measurement. A few inches any direction can make a big difference. It's important to keep things symmetrical to the LP, and damp any reflections which destroy the subtle cues needed to position instruments in space.



Insearchof said:


> That's not an easy room to work with!
> I'm thinking about a wireless solution for a 2nd sub in my room as well so can't give you any meaningful input there. There's a Dayton kit on PE I'm considering.
> I see you have the sub placed near the center of your front sound stage. Depending on the subs I have tried/heard, I personally prefer to place a single sub in nearly the same spot. From my ears and in my room that spot anchors the sound better, is generally smoother and less boomy than corner placement. Obviously your room and ears may be different but it may something to listen for while shuffling the sub around.
> I agree with Willis7469 regarding the angling of the front L+R. Try to aim the tweeters a bit behind you.
> I might focus on working with your mains and getting that as good as possible before adding the sub placement variable.


These are good points. And now I'm wondering... are you considering adding a sub because there's not enough bass for stereo? Try moving around the LP a few inches or a few feet to see if bass gets louder. Your LP might be in a "null." Move the LP away from that position, and... presto(!) problem solved!


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Use reflective tape, or have a friend walk a mirror around the room. You should treat any spot where the tweeter's reflection from either speaker can be seen. You're already off the back wall, so that's not a problem.
> 
> *So I'm at my LP and he's walking around the room with the mirror pointed to the center of my listening area. Whenever he comes to a position where I can see a tweeter, treat it. What if it's window that has wooden blinds, a big glass door with vertical shades or something similar? Are there acoustic materials that are easy to get/make to deal with reflection points (that have the WAF)?*
> 
> ...


*No, not for stereo. With the 7000+ cu ft cavernous room and all the nulls, it seemed like the logical next step to improve the HT experience but that's down the road. Trying to find better 2 channel sound is my main goal right now.*

Again, appreciate all the help.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Just worry about the first two points for each side right now. Before spending a lot of time and effort on DIY Treatments, use some comforters or heavy blankets instead. See if they make a difference that you like.

Another sub will help even out bass response, but only if you can place it where it does some good. You may have to take the missus on a nice vacation for that ( wink )!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Everyone's so nice for not jumping all over me about there being no left wall. Sincere thanks! ?

If you can't build a false one out of something like room-dividers (at least in the immediate area of the fireplace), then there's not much else to do except rearrange the layout so you're playing or listening out of the corner. Symmetry is key to a decent, stable 2 channel image. Sorry. 
Thoughts anyone?


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Symmetry is key to a decent, stable 2 channel image.


There is no substitute for L/R symmetry.

You have received a lot of excellent guidance. My thanks to all those who have pitched in.

I fear you will quickly reach the limits of experimentation, especially with your complex room arrangement, without the benefit of acoustical measurements. And - sorry - they will need to be the more complex kind with a non-usb mic, an audio interface, and timing loopback setup so you can measure delays and path lengths accurately. With accurate impulse diagrams for each of your main speakers, we can help you pinpoint specific changes to make to improve your image clarity and sharpness.

But my bigger fear is that the speaker placement so close to the wall will prevent you from ever achieving what you desire. While the Polks are fine speakers, if you had horn-loaded speakers, like Klipsch, their directivity would help remove the room from the equation altogether, and you could get truly good imaging in that room. It might be the only way to make a significant difference.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Apologies, I hope I did not discourage your progress. The advice you received seemed right on track. Was only trying to point out the possible limits, but there are certainly improvements that can be made following the track you were on.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

I apologize for the hit and run. I know I owe you guys an update. So, here's what I've managed to figure out and changes I've made:

- I am now driving each main with its own dedicated amp and no longer attempting bi-amp the lows and highs.
- I've done a fairly thorough sub crawl and believe I have my PSA XV15se in the best position possible considering interconnect & ac outlet access. Also spent some time trying to blend the sub in better gain-wise. Since its new to the system, I'm still trying this and that to see what I like best. I still prefer the sub in music listening.
- I have "un-toed" my mains as they were definitely "over toed". This seemed to make a big difference.
- I spent a lot of time trying different crossover settings. I've found the best sound to my ears with the mains crossed at 50hz.
- I now have my mains 12" out from the front wall.
- I did the mirror deal and addressed a couple obvious reflection points. I even moved a quilt rack fastened to the wall 3-4' over to get the hanging quilt over one of the points (my wife thought I was nuts).

I do feel my 2-channel sound has improved. The imaging seems better. From HT perspective, watched all 3 LOTRs and BHD last weekend. I'm pretty happy there.

Now I'm thinking more about working on my other 2-channel system. After reading all your posts, it's in a much more suitable and workable room from a symmetry pov. I have a nice older rig with a NAD 3130 pre, another NAD C270 2-channel amp and set of 80's vintage Polk monitor 10b's with the original silver coil tweeters I've had since my college days some 30-plus years ago. 

I'd like to thank everyone again for their input and helpful suggestions. I haven't given up on learning more about room eq tools. I'm just a slow learner!


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

480dad said:


> I apologize for the hit and run. I know I owe you guys an update. So, here's what I've managed to figure out and changes I've made:
> 
> - I am now driving each main with its own dedicated amp and no longer attempting bi-amp the lows and highs.
> - I've done a fairly thorough sub crawl and believe I have my PSA XV15se in the best position possible considering interconnect & ac outlet access. Also spent some time trying to blend the sub in better gain-wise. Since its new to the system, I'm still trying this and that to see what I like best. I still prefer the sub in music listening.
> ...


Wow, this is awesome to hear. We are really in a golden age of audio with every component is great at most price points. I really hope the next great revolution in audio is going to be setup and room treatment. This is hands down the "best" improvement you can do to must systems. You made some smart choices for your system. 50hz crossover is smart for 2 channel.

Take a good read of this when you setup your other room. http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...nnel-speaker-setup-guide-deep-soundstage.html


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

With the amount of money you have invested in the electronics it seems kinda crazy to me that you have the Polk rti12 speakers.
I really wanted to like those speakers because the Fry's in my area regularly practically gives them away. But to my ear they lack clarity and definition yet somehow become very harsh sounding when the volume is increased.
At the sale pricing they are an OK entry level speaker but if you are spending the money on higher end electronics I just don't see this speaker holding up its part of the load.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

chashint said:


> With the amount of money you have invested in the electronics it seems kinda crazy to me that you have the Polk rti12 speakers.
> I really wanted to like those speakers because the Fry's in my area regularly practically gives them away. But to my ear they lack clarity and definition yet somehow become very harsh sounding when the volume is increased.
> At the sale pricing they are an OK entry level speaker but if you are spending the money on higher end electronics I just don't see this speaker holding up its part of the load.


And, I've been thinking more and more about this very thing. When I set this rig up 8-9 years ago it was with multi-channel HT in mind. The RTi series is definitely not the LSI in terms of musicality but I still think it sounds pretty good for HT to me. I'm sure I dont have the most detailed ears, far from it probably. Yes, what once was a $1,500 pair of full range speakers can now be found for $800-900 on closeout, maybe even less. So, segue to today...now I'm thinking more about better 2-channel sound as the thread title states. Room treatments are important, I've learned that! I also think I need to look at my sources as I'm mainly a CD listener. I admit I'm behind the technology power curve, which is why I joned your forum. Maybe SACD and lossless music should be on my "whats next list". And, perhaps the RTi's are the weak link for clear, detailed 2-channel. So, I'll ask, if I were to think about a different set of mains for 2-channel, what would your suggestions be? 

AudioCraver mentioned Klipsch due to their directivity. A few months ago I was looking at a discontinued set of MLs that were listed at 1/3 of what they retailed for iirc. The reviews made specific note of the speakers having a very precise sound field. Sounds like that is may be what I need. Thoughts? I think they were ML Purity models. self-powered electrostats.

Also, I'm sure its obvious I like Polks. I bought the 10b's in the mid-80s and they still have good reviews today. Guess its because they share some of the same lineage as the SDAs. What about LSi series? the new versions retail around $3500 and I'm not going near that $$ range right now but the discontinued LSi15s and LSi 25s (powered sub) which were Polks flagships are now out there for $1100/pair with full 5 yr warranty. I haven't seen too many negative reviews on these speakers when they are truly compared with something comparable vs. something completely out of their league.

Could I reasonably expect to improve my 2-channel sound with set of mains in the 1000-1500 range? I would be fine with lightly used, closeouts, demos, etc.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

480dad said:


> And, I've been thinking more and more about this very thing. When I set this rig up 8-9 years ago it was with multi-channel HT in mind. The RTi series is definitely not the LSI in terms of musicality but I still think it sounds pretty good for HT to me. I'm sure I dont have the most detailed ears, far from it probably. Yes, what once was a $1,500 pair of full range speakers can now be found for $800-900 on closeout, maybe even less. So, segue to today...now I'm thinking more about better 2-channel sound as the thread title states. Room treatments are important, I've learned that! I also think I need to look at my sources as I'm mainly a CD listener. I admit I'm behind the technology power curve, which is why I joned your forum. Maybe SACD and lossless music should be on my "whats next list". And, perhaps the RTi's are the weak link for clear, detailed 2-channel. So, I'll ask, if I were to think about a different set of mains for 2-channel, what would your suggestions be?


Lossless definitely. Your ears will learn to thank you for it. But speakers are probably the weakest link.



> Could I reasonably expect to improve my 2-channel sound with set of mains in the 1000-1500 range? I would be fine with lightly used, closeouts, demos, etc.


I am sure everyone will agree this is a definite YES! You can get a lot of speaker in that price range.



> A few months ago I was looking at a discontinued set of MLs that were listed at 1/3 of what they retailed for iirc. The reviews made specific note of the speakers having a very precise sound field. Sounds like that is may be what I need. Thoughts? I think they were ML Purity models. self-powered electrostats.


Electrostatics are hard to beat for clarity. A pair of the Purity model for 1/3 of retail would be quite a deal. I own and love a ML ESL pair, similar to the Purity but non powered. Be aware that a dipole (radiates front and rear equally - all panel speakers are dipoles) demands that you pay special attention to the rear wave, definitely work best with an uncomplicated blank wall behind them. Also be aware that the rear wave opens up new realms of possibility for soundstage construction. Properly set, they can be really exciting speakers.

The reason for suggesting horn speakers is in a room where the area behind the speakers does not allow for symmetry and identical handling of rear reflections.



> Also, I'm sure its obvious I like Polks.


They make some nice speakers. In every price range I can think of speakers I have heard that sounded way more interesting to me.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

AudiocRaver said:


> In every price range I can think of speakers I have heard that sounded way more interesting to me.


I'd be interested in getting some recommendations! Paradigm, PSB, B&W, Monitor Audio, etc...specific models anyone...in the 1000-1500 price range?


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I am a spend the money on speakers and scrimp on the electronics if you have to kinda guy since the speakers are the primary driver on what you hear.
The electronics you have listed (if bought at retail) cost a bunch of money, In any butget distribution I consider a good speaker budget to be double what was spent on the processor, amps, and all of the media players.
I know there are different approaches and what works for me only applies to me so I respect your budget.

In speakers I place a lot of value on clarity, definition, and dynamics.
Paradigm Monitor 11, Martin Logan Motion (pick the top one in your budget), KEF (they seem change series so often I lose track but I like KEF speakers and they are often available below MSRP).
The Paradigm to my ear being the most dynamic and perhaps the most forward sounding, the ML maybe being the most refined or laid back sounding, and KEF is somewhere in between.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Another reason for Horn speakers is the efficiency. With high efficiency horn speakers you have very low distortion, and minimal amount of power is required to reach high listening levels. The downside to Horn speakers is size (unless you are hiding them behind an AT screen) which is not always good for the WAF.


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## Insearchof (Oct 21, 2014)

In that budget range, I would also consider Ascend Acoustics and the Chane speakers.
There's nothing wrong with having a bias towards Polks. When heavily discounted, they can be a great option.
As chashint mentioned certain Polk models can sound harsh as the volume is increased but that's true of many speakers being pushed by modestly powered receivers.
I would strongly suspect that with your NAD amps, you're getting a better sound quality and soundstage than running them through a receiver. It may not be the best possible pairing but if it appeals to your ear, does anything else matter?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Speaking of horns, I'm curious about these. 
http://m.jbl.com/products/STUDIO~580_JBL_US?sCatId=cat140013&skuId=STUDIO 580BK_JBL_US
Free shipping and free returns through at least February. The dual 8" bigger brothers are 999.00 each. They also come in cherry. I don't have a way to give any anecdotal info as I have no access, but a serious shopper could use the free back and forth. Reviews I've found have been positive.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> Speaking of horns, I'm curious about these. http://m.jbl.com/products/STUDIO~580_JBL_US?sCatId=cat140013&skuId=STUDIO%20580BK_JBL_US Free shipping and free returns through at least February. The dual 8" bigger brothers are 999.00 each. They also come in cherry. I don't have a way to give any anecdotal info as I have no access, but a serious shopper could use the free back and forth. Reviews I've found have been positive.


 I was able to listen to a pair of these JBL's at Nebraska Furniture Mart and I thought they sounded very good.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Thanks Jbrax. I can't find any where i live. I did a double take when you said furniture mart. Lol 
Never auditioned speakers while looking for a couch. Great idea!


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> Thanks Jbrax. I can't find any where i live. I did a double take when you said furniture mart. Lol Never auditioned speakers while looking for a couch. Great idea!


 Oh they've got everything! They even have a home theater projector room with many high end projectors. Pretty cool store.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

If I'm ever in the neighborhood, I'll have to stop!


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Speakers to consider:

Martin Logan Motion 12 - discontinued, NOT electrostatic, has folded motion tweeter and dipole midrange driver. A used pair for $400 to $500 per pair would blow your socks off. Amazingly good speakers.
Martin Logan ESL (used) or other used or discontinued models of their hybrid electrostatic series.
Arx A5 - discontinued, has folded motion tweeter. A used pair for $500 to $600 per pair would blow your socks off. Amazingly good speakers. Best I have heard under $1000/pair new price.
Chane A5rx-c - update of the Arx A5, under a new name, by the same designer, the new speaker I would buy for under $1000/pair.
PSA MTM-210 - just finishing a review on these, a mid-tweeter-mid (MTM) symmetrical design with a horn tweeter. Work really well close to the wall, a rare quality. Bass rolls off below 70 Hz so you would need a subwoofer. Fairly new model, $1500 per pair. Very smooth, clean, dynamic sound.
Other brands to consider:

Paradigm
Axiom


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

AudiocRaver said:


> Speakers to consider:
> 
> Martin Logan Motion 12 - discontinued, NOT electrostatic, has folded motion tweeter and dipole midrange driver. A used pair for $400 to $500 per pair would blow your socks off. Amazingly good speakers.





What about the new version the Motion 40...


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

480dad,
I have read my posts and I feel like I have been overly critical of the Polk speakers.
I apologize for that.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

I'm liking what I'm reading about the ESL and Motion 40. Going to try to make it a point to find and go listen to them if I can. I'm now thinking a dedicated 2-channel rig vs. making my HT do double duty. I may need another amp. I knew this was going to happen...


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

chashint said:


> 480dad,
> I have read my posts and I feel like I have been overly critical of the Polk speakers.
> I apologize for that.


No problem. Perspective is good.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Part of what was special about the Motion 12 was the dipole midrange driver, really helped cast a soundstage. They didn't do that with their later non-electrostatic designs. Have not heard them, though.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Ditto AudiocRaver's comments on all points.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

C'mon over I have the Klipsch in the house and I used to own the Martin Logans.
I do not believe the ESL's will give you the power your looking for, but other than that, they are truly a bargain at about $2000 or so. There is so much good advice in this thread that one must make a list of what are your needs from NEED to WANT and then go for it. I also am not sure that the ELS will work in a room as big as yours, again, sound level. Now dont get me wrong, they will play at 100db but that does not necessarily equate to the sound, pressure and air movement of a good high efficiency horn loaded speaker of proper size. 

You are always welcome here to set your mind for or against the horns. I have several pairs of other speakers as well.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

Update. The Polk Mains and center are now gone. I've also upped my budget to $2000-$2500. I'm still leaning towards the ML ESLs (and the EM-C2 center). I think the electrostats will give me the 2-channel music sound I'm after with much improved imaging and soundstage. As I told Jack, what also intrigues me about the electrostats is accepting I won't get the initial placement perfect. But it will be good, probably very good. Then as I get curious, there's always tweak here and a tweak there to make it even better. I get that they won't have the SPL but I'm ok with that. 

With all this said I have a couple of questions.

1) my NAD 2 channel amps are 4 ohm stable. The "impedance sensing circuitry" can drive 2 ohm loads, up to 450w dynamic and 70 amps into a 1 ohm load. The ESLs at certain freqs dip below 2 ohms. Will I see any advantage driving each ESL with its own separate amp or just go with one 2 channel amp? Any other concerns with these outboard amps and this speaker load?

2) please see post 13 for my room layout. It's actually fairly accurate dimension-wise. I should be able to place the ESLs 2-3 feet from the front wall, maybe more. And have up to 10-11' space between speakers if needed. But my real question is the front wall directly behind where the speakers would be placed. How much symmetrical space is needed for the dipole reflections? I probably have a couple feet of "blank" wall. With the fireplace oak side flanking the left channel, I assume I'd need to place a bookcase or other similar surface flanking the right to get the right symmetry?

Btw, in the past 4-5 weeks this forum has been responsible for a new PSA xv15se sub...which I just traded back in for the new v1500 last week (Tom V. is great); a set of Chane A5xr-c's (Jon Lane is great); and the MLs I intend to order in a couple days. To think a few short weeks ago I didn't know much about any of these brands or products. My hats off to your very thorough and informative reviews and all the fine posts and related discussions. It really helps people like me who aren't all that smart!


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

480dad said:


> Update. The Polk Mains and center are now gone. I've also upped my budget to $2000-$2500. I'm still leaning towards the ML ESLs (and the EM-C2 center). I think the electrostats will give me the 2-channel music sound I'm after with much improved imaging and soundstage. As I told Jack, what also intrigues me about the electrostats is accepting I won't get the initial placement perfect. But it will be good, probably very good. Then as I get curious, there's always tweak here and a tweak there to make it even better. I get that they won't have the SPL but I'm ok with that.
> 
> With all this said I have a couple of questions.
> 
> ...


You are a brave soul placing so much trust in us.

I drive my ESLs with an amp rated 115w/ch continuous power 2-chan into 8-ohm, 125w/ch continuous 2-chan into 6-ohm, 240w/ch dynamic power 2-chan into 3-ohm, but the room is smaller & the LP is 6 feet away. Your NAD sounds plenty big to me.

========

Some people will tell you to dissipate the rear waves from the ESL panels. That is because they have not heard what happens when you really match them up closely. The key here is really really close, if you don't match them closely it is better to not have them close at all, to dissipate them.

If you are willing to go to the trouble to match them up closely so their arrival times are synchronized, you get tremendous impact and dynamic punch from those reflected waves hitting you at the same time with drums and percussion, the whole soundstage becomes more dense and specific.

For a given speaker placement, finding the real reflection point is very important. Buy a couple of cheap makeup mirrors 6 inches in diameter, remove them from their housings, tape them to the wall at what you think the reflection points are. Use a laser distance meter from your forehead at the LP bouncing off of each mirror to the respective speaker. With the ESL you will be able to see the laser dot through the panel. From your forehead to the mirror to the center of the back of the ESL, all should be directly lined up.

Conversely you can use the laser distance meter from the back of the ESL panel off the mirror to the LP to confirm.

Once you know the reflection points I think you want at least a good foot in either direction left and right of it, floor to ceiling, if possible, to be plain, flat wall.

Now comes the fun part. you can do this pretty accurately with a laser distance meter. You will of course want to get the distance from each speaker to the LP down to a fraction of an inch symmetrical. Getting the rear distance from the panel to the reflection point to the LP perfectly symmetrical is also important.

The problem here is you have too many variables for a solution unless your room is built perfectly symmetrical in its construction. You will have to decide between getting it to line up the best you can given the construction of your room versus the possibility of going the extra step below, given the particular WAF limits of your situation.

I use a vertically placed board, 11 inches wide, 6 feet high (1 x 12 x 6ft) to create a new reflection surface which can be spaced slightly from the wall just enough to match the reflection timing. Then you can get those rear waves arriving at exactly the same time, within about 50 microseconds of each other, that's about +/- half an inch matching.

The board can be made as decorative as you wish it to be.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

That's all very good info and seems doable. I put the ESLs (and a EM-C2 center channel) on order earlier today. Looking forward to diving in. Appreciate all the tips...


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

Quick question...the new speakers arrive Monday so I'm upgrading some interconnects and doing a few other things this weekend to prep. Any firsthand experience with the louvred bi-fold door trick to help with the rear wave? Seems to be popular with many stat owners to disperse the rear wave outside and in, keeping it from radiating back into the stator.

Also, I presume I should follow the same guidelines with the ESLs as with other full range mains and set to small with 50-60 hz crossover? Can't imagine they could add much on top of the PSA V1500.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

Ok, the new speakers are in and I've had 2-3 hours to do the initial placement. Geeez louise...just didn't know what I was missing. Music I've heard a thousand times now sounds more alive, the difference is amazing. Still alot more to do (learn and try) to dial in the rear wave and get the soundstage better but I do think I've solved my 2 channel problem. Really do appreciate all the input I've received on dealing with my room, gear set up and especially for the speaker "intervention".

Now if I could just get those Chane A5s in before my sons bday next week...


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

When I was first working with my ESL, another user suggested something that really improved the bass. I forget what floor material you are working with, if it is carpeting, put a rectangle of wood or a large ceramic tile under each of the ESL. You'll be surprised how it tightens up the bass really nicely.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

I have carpet/pad over concrete. So, this was one of the first things I tried (thanks to yours & Jacks discussion on it) and the result seemed exactly as you stated. Bought a 12"x 36" x 3/4" mdf with black wood grain veneer finish (was actually home depot shelving), cut in half, and put 1 1/2" dry wall screws thru it to the concrete to "stake in place" and to assure base was level. It also made changing the toe in easier to do. you can see them here. You can ignore all the lasers pointing every which way. ok, not sure you can see the wood bases in these terrible pics but they are there.









In the pics below, the panels are 36" from the rear wall and ~102" between and 162" to the LP. So, I'm not equilateral. I started equilateral then moved my LP back until I found what sounded best. ended up 60'' beyond equilateral. I haven't really done this with the distance between them yet as shortenting the distance is going to have the entertainment center built-in shelves directly behind the panels which I presume would destroy the dipole effect if not create some problematic traps too.

I'm now experimenting with different approaches on the front wall to address the rear wave. I know I don't have an optimum front wall to work with so I'll try a few things to see what works best. I plan to try a 48" tall bookshelf outboard of the right speaker to give me symmetry with the left (the side of the fireplace cabinet is 52 tall x24 deep). The good part is I don't have much side wall off either speaker to work with but its my understanding the dipole design doesn't really depend on side walls for its "better" sound any ways.

















I'll be playing around with some 2'x4' fiberglass ceiling tiles and slatted/louvered door panels this weekend to see if one or some combination therof makes any difference. If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

This has been/is an excellent thread.
I am glad you got the WOW factor when you replaced the speakers.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

It's definitely been an excellent (albeit expensive) thread for me Charlie. I've learned a ton from all you guys. 

BTW, I'm now not to far off the 2:1 speaker-to-electronics ratio you mentioned earlier if you count the sub & surrounds.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Ha, don't put too much stock in my musings.
I am pleased that you found something that you really like.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

I hate to even ask this but I will as I'm now curious. For a down-the-road plan, what would you guys do next? I will add a second sub for HT but that's a given later down the road. Separate pre for 2-channel? change or add a new source (I'm really uneducated when it comes to understanding DACs and music formats)? Tubes?

My wife just told me she thinks the keyboard on an old favorite Toad the Wet Sprocket song is too the left of the lead singer, which is to the left of the lead guitarist. I think a tear came to my eye. Ha.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

480dad said:


> My wife just told me she thinks the keyboard on an old favorite Toad the Wet Sprocket song is too the left of the lead singer, which is to the left of the lead guitarist. I think a tear came to my eye. Ha.


You are too much! It is fun when family starts to hear and appreciate the differences we worked so hard to achieve.

There are certainly gains to be had elsewhere, but you can spend a lifetime making improvements through room setup and treatment. I would probably look at power amp at some point. We had Sonnie's ESLs sizzling last night in his big, thoroughly treated room with an 80 watt power amp, but you could tell it was straining. Many MartinLogan owners will testify that electrostatics shine with a power amp that can dig deep when called upon.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

A few thoughts about amps and power levels to drive the ESL to high volume....

Using measured sensitivity readings at the LP in my room, to reach peak SPL of 105db, which works for movies at standard 85 dB reference level with 20 dB of dynamic range or music at 90 dB with 15db of dynamic range, into a 4 ohm load, an amplifier needs to be able to drive 360 watts peak-rms per channel. True that the ESL has lower impedance at highest frequencies, but "normal" high frequency content will never come close to those levels. Something to think about if you are contemplating amplifier changes.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

I found myself leaning towards the Parasound A21 which would easily handle the ESLs load at those levels, but based on the early returns from the amp eval, there seems to be little reason to go with the parasound when the xpa-2 would also easily handle the loads at about 1/3 of the price. Strictly speaking from a numbers perspective, that is...

Sounds like this eval was really good for Emotiva and their lower price points.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Years ago when I had my ML Sequels we tried a QSC Pro amp (I think it was 400wpch), and it literally blew us away as to how good it sounded.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

In the process of installing quiet fans in my Crown Xs500 to run the ESLs. Will be fun to A/B with my Onkyo.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

AudiocRaver said:


> In the process of installing quiet fans in my Crown Xs500 to run the ESLs. Will be fun to A/B with my Onkyo.


If you want to listen loud... I think you will like the Crown better for dynamics with the ESLs. :T i was surprised how much better the ESLs sounded with lots of power.


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