# Value of DIY vs. Manufactured



## Alex Donkle (Jan 23, 2009)

I'm very familiar with most brands of speakers, but I'm rather new to DIY and was curious how the value of DIY options compare with Polk, SVS, B&W, ect... 

There are certainly a lot of variables and exceptions, but I'm just looking for some generalized information as a starting point.


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

I'm sure you'll get more from your money with a DIY sub ...:yes:

Specially you can brag to friends and family about your build :whistling: . :bigsmile:


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## steverc (Jan 5, 2008)

Alex:

It's hard to beat that "Look what I did" feeling!
You're not likely to build something right off the bat that's better than you can buy but eventually you will learn enough to make exactly what you want. And that's hard to find at any price!

Steve
http://www.kn7f.com/Theater/


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

I just installed an exterior door on one of my rental houses.

Lowe's wanted $300 for the installation. I did it for free if you don't count the $100 reciprocating saw, the $300 nail gun and compressor and lets not forget the approximate 20hrs labor. But man, its in there perfect. Matter of fact, I now go around looking at all other doors and find that a lot of them are crooked. lol

On the one hand, I don't mind buying $400 in tools as I've been wanting them for years and can use them on other projects and I kind of enjoyed tearing everything up and putting new in and getting it perfect, but if it was going to be only a "1 of" project, then I lost money. I think that's how some of these do it yourself projects turn out.

One very good example of a DIY project that I thought went wrong was when Ilkka over in Finland (a very well know subwoofer tester) had built either one or two subs with what was considered a very good off the shelf driver and amp. We just knew that it had to outperform everything else out there. He was honest enough to admit that it didn't. Was it his design or the components, I guess we'll never know. But if he couldn't do it, I seriously doubt that I could.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Good point about the tools Jim. I have added a few to my arsenal because of DIY projects.

I am not sure about full range speakers, but I would think many of those who have built their own believe they are better than anything they could buy with the money they spent building their own. To me... the best speakers I have ever heard are Martin Logan... nothing I have ever heard can come even remotely close to what these speakers can do. I don't imagine there will be many (if any) DIY'ers out there making any electrostats.

OTOH... I fully believe there are lots of DIY subs out there that will surpass the best of the manufactured subs dollar for dollar and even less dollar for dollar. The right driver and design needs to be used and they can do very well.

While DIY can be fun and give you that satisfaction of doing it yourself, there are times where I just ain't motivated to DIY and would rather buy. I have no problems being satisfied with products like SVS makes... they are very well built and solid performers.


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## WmAx (Jan 26, 2008)

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Sonnie said:


> Good point about the tools Jim. I have added a few to my arsenal because of DIY projects.
> 
> I am not sure about full range speakers, but I would think many of those who have built their own believe they are better than anything they could buy with the money they spent building their own. To me... the best speakers I have ever heard are Martin Logan... nothing I have ever heard can come even remotely close to what these speakers can do. I don't imagine there will be many (if any) DIY'ers out there making any electrostats.


One can engineer and build a DIY speaker using dynamic drivers that will match and exceed even the highest end ML. But most (even experienced) DIYers seem to overlook some of the critical characteristics that give a ML it's specific SQ characteristics, which besides it's rear radiation, has a lot to do with it's lack of resonances, thus resulting in extraordinary timbre purity of recorded material.

-Chris


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Bang for buck if done correctly, DIY is better in many ways but as has already been said if you dont have the proper tools and knowledge subs like HSU and SVS are a great alternative. I think the key thing here is money, DIY can be half the cost for a comparable sub, that is if you dont count your time as money.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I think time is something that is hardly ever factored in with DIY... probably because it is more like fun... at least at first I think it would be for most people. After doing it a while, it might begin to feel like work. At any rate, you have to figure that time you spent is what you are paying extra for when buying that manufactured sub. You also have to figure paying for those tools, which ain't cheap. If you have the time and resources already paid for, then it becomes economical indeed.


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## Alex Donkle (Jan 23, 2009)

I was hoping to find more of a dollar ratio of some kind...

These are the speakers I was looking at 

http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/impresario/index.cfm

Materials cost ~$160 + wood. Would the resulting speaker likely sell for say $300 each in a store then?

(Figured building a pre-designed DIY would be the best starting point, as then I could quickly get a decent starting point and tweak it to get a better understanding of changing specific crossovers, boxes, internal foam, ect...)


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

There are really too many variables to make such a determination. Personal preference, materials used, marketing, reputation, performance, all vary so much and are hard to quantify in terms of selling price that it would be impossible to create a meaningful relationship like you are trying to find.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm one of those that think you can save a decent wad of cash going DIY as well. There are many many many pre-designed kits out there that can be bought which, when you factor in just the raw cost, will out perform a store bought speaker.

As for a ratio -- I think it depends. The more you spend on the raw materials (Drivers, etc) the more you save by going DIY. I think I've heard someone actually make a 2-1 comparison at one point. Maybe less, maybe more.

I came across this kit on sale for $59 (from $164). It doesn't include the enclosure or the ports or some of the other small parts you'd need, but that would be an excellent experimental speaker I'd think.


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

JCD,

Well, it would appear that there are varying degrees of DIY. With some, you get all the parts and you just have to put them together. Other's like the one you linked too requires cabinet building skills, tools, and finishing skills that can be a lot of fun if you do it right and it turns out nicely. I think the key here is can you do it well and would you enjoy building it? 

I don't know about any economic savings. If you're only interested in building one set, then the equipment/tools cost would eat up your savings. If you're going to make it a hobby, be sure to guy good equipment.


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## joz (Jul 14, 2008)

Apart from the cost of components if you add a tradesmans labour.
R+D
Marketing costs.
wholesale margins 
shipping costs
the retail margins
taxes on the final $$$
+ who knows what else is added $$
I'm sure choosing the components well and going with one of the many proven designs diy should come out well infront.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

JimP said:


> JCD,
> 
> Well, it would appear that there are varying degrees of DIY. With some, you get all the parts and you just have to put them together. Other's like the one you linked too requires cabinet building skills, tools, and finishing skills that can be a lot of fun if you do it right and it turns out nicely. I think the key here is can you do it well and would you enjoy building it?
> 
> I don't know about any economic savings. If you're only interested in building one set, then the equipment/tools cost would eat up your savings. If you're going to make it a hobby, be sure to guy good equipment.


God point -- it this i a one time deal, and you don't already have the tools, then the overhead is going to be pretty high. The first set I built, I borrowed the relevant tools. The sub I built was the same. As was the second pair of speakers. For the fourth, I've purchased most of the tools -- tools I'll mostly be using for other stuff as well.

Anyway, all excellent points.


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## Bob_99 (May 8, 2006)

For my .02, I think one point of DIY is that it's better if you have enough time to do more than one. As with anything else, I think the first one or two are learning projects and then once you have some experience, you feel like you can really build that "one" special sub. I'm sure this may not be the case for the experienced wood worker but probably applies more to people who are doing it for the first time.

Bob


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

One question that probably should be addressed in this thread is can you buy the drivers, crossovers and designs to go into a speaker or subwoofer that the better known brands use? 

I get the impression that these manufacturers have special components made up just for them and have an engineer come up with designs that don't follow the canned programs. Do they really have the "special sauce" or is it always off the shelf stuff??


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## joz (Jul 14, 2008)

Some of the big names in audio may produce their own drivers but many use of the shelf drivers.
Madisound is good starting place for drivers and the associated bits but there are many others.
Google diy loudspeakers and I'm sure you'll find projects aplenty.
Many of the diy suggestions are complete with driver selection,box design and crossover layouts.
Subs would be the simplest with a chosen driver then adding one of the plate amps which come complete with all the connections.

Some manufacturers though do have some stock drivers modded to suit.


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## jliedeka (May 27, 2008)

A well designed, well executed DIY speaker has the potential to outperform any mass market speaker. It's probably hard to draw a line where mass market leaves off and high end starts. There are some characteristics of mass market speakers that cause them to not reach their potential in sound quality. 

A big factor is cabinet bracing. Mass market speakers may use thinner walls and/or fewer braces. Cabinet resonance can manifest as a sort of smearing in certain frequency ranges which may be described as a lack of detail or possibly excessive warmth. If you have the woodworking skills to build a well braced cabinet, you can address an issue that affects most of the speakers any of us would typically buy.

Because everything is a trade off, mass market speakers need to be engineered to be profitable at a given price point. Besides cabinet quality, driver and/or crossover quality may have to be compromised. A less than ideal crossover slope may be chosen to keep the parts count down and you may be lucky to get any tweeter padding.

Using a proven design by some of the better speaker designers (Zaph, Roman Bednarek, the guys on HTGuide, etc) built with good cabinets can get you high end sound for a close to mass market price. I'm in the process of building 5 speakers for HT, 3 Natalie Ps for the front and 2 Modula MTs for the surrounds. I estimate I'll have about $1500 in materials by the time I'm finished.

On the subject of drivers, it's true that some manufacturers use bespoke drivers which allow them to build 8 ohm MTMs where the DIY version would be 4 ohm. There are still a lot of driver choices for the DIY market that produce some great sounding speakers.

Jim


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## fbov (Aug 28, 2008)

This discussion focuses on monetary value, which is the least significant variable for me. The value of DIY anything is in the doing. Learning how to build boxes and XOs, measure things we can hear, optimize our audio environments, etc. It's the time we spend doing that gives this value. 

You can buy speakers, but may find the most fun comes from auditioning - I find that shopping is more fun than buying.

You can't buy peace of mind, but you can find a lot of it in sandpaper and wood, or circuits and drivers, or whatever aspect draws you in. That's the real value of any hobby, and that's what DIY is for the vast majority - what you do with the time that's yours, that no one else takes from you.

HAve fun,
Frank


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

I'm starting to see 3 camps developing. 1) Those who can't afford mid to high end speakers and would like to build some on a one time basis thinking that they'll get the same quality. 2) Subwoofer builders who over a span of years will build several subwoofers with the intent of building the perfect sub and 3) The guys who just love to build things and the object of their construction is speakers and subs. These guys probably have a lot of other construction they've done around the house.

I'd say that 2 and 3 are fine. My concern is for those in group 1 who don't own the tools nor have the woodworking skills that for a one time thing think that they can build a set of high end speakers. Sometimes we have to know our limits.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Very good assessment Jim... :T


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## fbov (Aug 28, 2008)

+1 Jim, on the camps and the concerns. 

I guess that makes me a 3, but with the emphasis on "making" rather than just building. I make what I want to use. My telescope projects were followed by equatorial platforms that allowed them to track the sky. Now that the new LCR set is (mostly) done, I'm looking into acoustic treatments to address the roller coaster that is my sub-200Hz frequency response from these before adding in the sub. 

HAve fun,
Frank


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

fbov,

I'm also just now getting into acoustic treatments. 

See you in that thread.


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## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Sometimes you start out in the first camp and find your way into the second and 3rd. I started out just wanting to build some nice speakers since I didn't have any and couldn't afford any. So I used all my friends tools. I liked it and my friends wanted me to build them subs so I started buying tools. Now I've built myself 2 sets of bookshelf speakers and 2 subs and built subs for some friends am in the process of building some statement floorstanders for another friend with some money and I already want to build myself something bigger better and different. I just need some more money.


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

evilskillit said:


> I just need some more money.


What about some donations from those friends??? :whistling:


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## its_bacon12 (Jun 1, 2008)

I like how the speaker can be tailored to your tastes rather than a one size fits all connotation. Not to mention designing it for your environment whether it be for the room or to match a current speaker setup you already have.


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## hershey (Jun 1, 2009)

To me, outside of building kits, or even following the disign of a proven DIYer, successfully designing and building a quality loudspeaker becomes very difficult. However, it is in that arena that, in my opinion, you are able to beat out most anything you can get your hands on. The reason I feel this way is that, if done carefully, with all the right tools (and I don't necessarily mean just table saws and claps etc., but software and mics), the right driver selection and cross over components, and the right know how, you can do something that no manufacturer made speaker I am aware of can do... You can optimize a speakers performance for the very location that it will be sitting in the very room it will be used in. Every other speaker you can buy was designed using assumptions about the space the speaker will eventually be used in and how you will use them, like a one size fits all hat, but you don't have to settle for that designing and building your own system. (I know there are wonderful pieces of electronics that help overcome some room acoustic hurdles like the auto eq's built into many receivers, but in my opinion there is only so much of a hardware issue that can be overcome by software before the hardware reaches it limits.) The real trouble with this idea becomes learning how to design and build that custom tailored system. That is a journey that has the potenetial to be very costly and time consuming without the help of people who have already run the path, and is not for the easily discouraged, but if you're willing to take the plunge, in the end, it can be incredibly rewarding! If you're the type that is up for a big adventure try googling zaph audio or looking into the forums at parts express or htguide for starters. There are lots of wonderful people on those forums who can get you off on the right foot.


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## hm-moreart (Mar 5, 2009)

Hello,
i think a DIY advantage exist today only by self made horn constructions,

Up to 80% of the manufacturing costs for a bass horn are in the housing.
If then still trade profit margins and transport in addition come !? 
Both falls with the self's building away or better said you takes over the job.


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## keelay (Dec 11, 2008)

Dont forget Camp #4. Custom build to have full control over design to integrate into a given room style. This can be for WAF (make them disappear) or for personal flare (Room center/master piece). My Bookshelf Natalie P's were in this camp.

I like many started in camp #1 (save money camp) and found it to be rewarding. I stop by ultimate electronics every now and then to see if I can price point a speaker that I have recently built. They usually carry speakers with a cost of up to $1500. It isn't a fair side by side test, but I strongly believe that the Camp #1 has a great argument if you already have the tools or will use them for other projects anyways. If you follow a proven reference design and don't figure in your own time just cost of materials I believe that there is a 2x-4x price to value ration to DIY. 

I was already one who had lots of tools and worked in wood working so quickly found myself in camp 3 (loves to build camp) addicted to the design -> building process followed by the auditioning process. I built a pair of speakers for a friend. He supplied the parts and covered all costs, I just got to build them. I got to keep them for about a week after I was finished before delivering them to him. That alone was worth it to me. 

Kyle


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