# Onkyo vs. Denon flagship receivers as a pre/pro: Preamp output voltage



## Architect7 (Apr 9, 2012)

Looks like I may need to replace my new AVR-X4000 due to HDMI issues. The sound is fantastic but I've noticed that upper-end Onkyo receivers have 4.6v preamp outputs vs. Denon's X4000 and 4520CI's 2v outputs. I use the receiver as a pre/pro with my Rotel amps so the preamp section is very imprtant to me. Has anyone been able to compare a higher end Onkyo to a Denon using preamp outputs? Thanks!


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Good Morning

In answer to your question, yes I have had both in my system. They were both equal cost and had similar gizmos but when hooked to my external amp, I heard no real problems in way of volume. Denon and Onkyo readouts on their incorporated screen were not the same, but I guess I would expect things to be different.

Overall, no problems.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

All of the current generation Rotel multi channel amps reach full output power between 1.2v and 1.9v input (unbalanced) so there is nothing to be gained with a 4v preamp except possibly over driving the amplifier.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Can't imagine there would be much difference b/w the two. Can't you just send it back for repair?


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

chashint said:


> All of the current generation Rotel multi channel amps reach full output power between 1.2v and 1.9v input (unbalanced) so there is nothing to be gained with a 4v preamp except possibly over driving the amplifier.


Agreed, Pro amps only need 1.4v to be driven to full power, any more will make no difference in what the amp can do.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

As I understand it the point of having a higher input voltage is so that you can turn down the gains on the amps which will introduce less noise into the system, since your "amplifying" less overall and working the amp less hard.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

A higher voltage signal will reduce the noise floor particularly if your running an amp that only has balanced inputs. There will be a noticeable difference.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I noticed no difference when I switched from my Marantz to my 809 as far as noise goes. As long as the amp gets at least the 1.4v it needs then there is no reason to crank up the gain thus increasing the noise. In my case there was no significant change in my gain settings when I switched. Just my experience with my Crown amps.


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## Architect7 (Apr 9, 2012)

Savjac said:


> Good Morning
> 
> In answer to your question, yes I have had both in my system. They were both equal cost and had similar gizmos but when hooked to my external amp, I heard no real problems in way of volume. Denon and Onkyo readouts on their incorporated screen were not the same, but I guess I would expect things to be different.
> 
> Overall, no problems.


Thanks for the reply. Which did you prefer overall?



Tonto said:


> Can't imagine there would be much difference b/w the two. Can't you just send it back for repair?


It is still within the initial return window so I can send it back rather than labor over warranty hassles.



tonyvdb said:


> A higher voltage signal will reduce the noise floor particularly if your running an amp that only has balanced inputs. There will be a noticeable difference.





Andre said:


> As I understand it the point of having a higher input voltage is so that you can turn down the gains on the amps which will introduce less noise into the system, since your "amplifying" less overall and working the amp less hard.


Exactly what I was thinking, especially in my experience with car audio where preamp voltage can drastically change the noise floor.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

The OP has not provided specific model information but as far as I can tell the current generation of Rotel multi channel amps do not have adjustable gain control so there is no advantage of higher preamp voltage.


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## Architect7 (Apr 9, 2012)

chashint said:


> The OP has not provided specific model information but as far as I can tell the current generation of Rotel multi channel amps do not have adjustable gain control so there is no advantage of higher preamp voltage.


The amps are Rotel RB-980BX (no gains) and RB-976 (with gains).


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Mixing and matching consumer pre’s and amplifiers is seldom, if ever, going to result in any signal incompatibility issues.

Regards, 
Wayne


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## Viggen (Dec 31, 2008)

Been a Denon fan since the early 90's when I sold their stuff..... still have a trusty old AVR-3000 which has given me... .... 22-23 years of trouble free use

Thus, when I was shopping last time I wanted another Denon (wife is a Yamaha fan, I will stick with their motorcycles). Anyways.... I went Integra due to not wanting a receiver with a amp built in. I figured why buy something with amps built in if I was never going to use them? So I purchased a Integra 9.8 originally.... it experienced HDMI switching issues and was fixed under their 3yr warranty. When it was out for service I purchased the newer 80.1 which has been 100% trouble free. 

I would suggest getting a pre/pro and ditch the built in amp.....


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## Architect7 (Apr 9, 2012)

Viggen said:


> Been a Denon fan since the early 90's when I sold their stuff..... still have a trusty old AVR-3000 which has given me... .... 22-23 years of trouble free use
> 
> Thus, when I was shopping last time I wanted another Denon (wife is a Yamaha fan, I will stick with their motorcycles). Anyways.... I went Integra due to not wanting a receiver with a amp built in. I figured why buy something with amps built in if I was never going to use them? So I purchased a Integra 9.8 originally.... it experienced HDMI switching issues and was fixed under their 3yr warranty. When it was out for service I purchased the newer 80.1 which has been 100% trouble free.
> 
> I would suggest getting a pre/pro and ditch the built in amp.....


I would but the pre/pros with XT32 and SubEQ are out of my budget. I may end up with an Anthem MRX-510 instead.


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## Viggen (Dec 31, 2008)

Any interest in used stuff? Audiogon is a great place to snag used stuff like that..... 

I think my integra 9.8 pre/pro is worth $500-700 now....


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## Architect7 (Apr 9, 2012)

Yes, I am open to used but it is harder to find used high end gear that will perform HD surround decoding (Dolby TrueHD, etc.). Any specific model suggestions are welcome


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## Viggen (Dec 31, 2008)

What's your budget?

I honestly do not know if the older integra preamps would work with what you are looking for, but it is worth looking into.

DHC 9.8 - first gen pre/pro ..... I purchased mine as a demo unit when the 9.8 was released. 
DHC 9.9
DHC 80.1 - 3rd gen... When my 9.8 was in for service I purchased this one. Figure I will keep it until I get a 4k tv which with what they cost for large tv's.... Is going to be a long long time 

I think they are presently selling the 5th gen, DHC 80.3 and I looked at integral website and they also offer a DHC 60.5 ....l have no clue what these cost now. When I purchased my stuff local shop would give me 20% off or so


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## gadgtfreek (Oct 13, 2014)

Bringing this back from the dead, because my question for some understanding is the same.

I have a 4520ci

Analog outputs:

200mv input sensitivity/47k ohms
S/N 102db
Distortion 0.05%
Rated output 1.2v (id assume this is 1.2v RMS)

Will be driving send signal to an Outlaw Model 7500.

7500:

Gain 28db
Input impedance 28k ohms nominal 
1.43 volts for full rated output


I have seen comments anywhere from 1.2v is RMS and it will output 2x that max, to you will just have to cut the volume up higher.

Just would like a little understanding of why they publish these number is there isn't a consistency, and how I can best get more understanding why the Denon being at 1.2v and the Outlaw needing 1.43, shouldn't matter.

Thanks!


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

One reason it shouldn’t matter is that AVR manufacturers regularly under-rate their pre-amp output voltage. Another is that there typically aren’t compatibility issues with consumer equipment, like you occasionally see when mixing pro and consumer gear.

Regards, 
Wayne


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## gadgtfreek (Oct 13, 2014)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> One reason it shouldn’t matter is that AVR manufacturers regularly under-rate their pre-amp output voltage. Another is that there typically aren’t compatibility issues with consumer equipment, like you occasionally see when mixing pro and consumer gear.
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


Thanks. They definitely leave you hanging with some of those specs and can create false concern for the layman.


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