# RETHINKING 7.1



## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

After a little debate with Sir Terrence on another thread I am now wondering if I will see an improvement in upgrading from 5.1 to 7.1.

I have been put off as I used to own a 7.1 sub/sat system in my old flat with a small room and was not impressed at all, but my room is a bit bigger now, 18ft x 13ft to be precise, I now have a focal profile 900 series 5.1 setup with bipole rears.

My problems are that my couch is 4 feet from the rear wall, any closer to the screen will be too close as the screen is 9ft wide x 6ft high and we are around 14ft from it. Any further back and the subs response is too overbearing, I cannot put speakers to my side as there are doors either side, 110 degrees is the best I can do which is good for 5.1 but not for 7.1. I previously had the bipoles in a similar position to the rear surrounds in a 7.1 setup but as me and wife had a bipole each behind our heads we had a lifeless rear soundstage. So if I was to put 2 direct firers there they would be firing at the back of our heads so I am concerned that this would still be a bit inaudable.

Since it would be a costly upgrade I would like to know if it is possible or if it is even worth upgrading to 7.1 given my room issues. If I was to get 4 direct firers I have the problem with the focal profile directs are standmounts only which for surround, I do not feel put the speakers high enough.

The other thing I thought about was to just do 6.1 and have another matching bipole in the centre of the rear wall between me and my wife's head, this way we both have tweeters firing at our ears.

I would really appreciate your ideas :help:

Thanks in advance

Marty


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

Marty,
In your case, I would have to say don't do it. You are far better off upgrading a 5.1 system in this room than investing in 7.1. 7.1 does require that you have the necessary space and symmetry to make it sound its best, and it is clear you don't have it. My smallest dedicated HT rooms measure 12x15x10, and I have 7.1 mini-monitor/sub based system in each. My only doors are located in spots that don't interfere with the proper placement of each of the 7 main speakers or sub. I was lucky the those two small rooms are exactly alike(in the same house), or I could never pull off a 7.1 system in either of them. I was able to get the exact proper placement of each main speaker, the same distance from each speaker to the ears, and keep the couch at least 4ft away from any walls. I had some flexibility with placement because I used a large LCD panel(55") as opposed to a projection based system which would force me to sit quite far back in the room.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I agree, given you only have one row of seating 5.1 is sufficient, the only way i can see 7.1 working for you is by placing the current BiPols above the doors on either side (not an issue at all) and have normal speakers on the rear wall angled down. This would envelop your seating area a bit better and may give you a better sound stage.


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## koyaan (Mar 2, 2010)

Agreed. In your situation, 7.1 won't be a big improvement. You mentioned 6.1, however, and that might be worthwhile. For a time, I had a traditional 5.1 set-up and happend to have a surplus center speaker. I put in a small shelf directly behind the listening position and placed it there. The effect was't shattering, but was pleasant tor films and venue effects for music.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

I agree with the general concensus: Your room doesn't appear to lend itself to a 7.1 set-up, so a good 5.1 set-up - or a 6.1 set-up (give it a try, see if it works) - should do very nicely in your space. :T


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Another vote for the 5.1 here. I only run 5.1 for the exact same reasons, and in these kind of small UK rooms, 5.1 is all that you really need.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Sir Terrence said:


> Marty,
> In your case, I would have to say don't do it. You are far better off upgrading a 5.1 system in this room than investing in 7.1. 7.1 does require that you have the necessary space and symmetry to make it sound its best, and it is clear you don't have it. My smallest dedicated HT rooms measure 12x15x10, and I have 7.1 mini-monitor/sub based system in each.


I love the speakers I have so it wasn't an upgrade I was after, you just got me thinking that I am missing out on something special in the rear soundstage when you said that a properly setup 7.1 system will always beat a 5.1 setup, as you said now though if the symmetry isn't right I will have to miss out :hissyfit:

That said I would still rather stick to a full range setup and have 5.1 than go back to sats and have 7.1, they just never have the oomph that full range speakers have, maybe there are sats that have but I should imagine they wouldn't be cheap.

You smallest room is nearly as big as my biggest room :yikes: I am green with envy 



tonyvdb said:


> I agree, given you only have one row of seating 5.1 is sufficient, the only way i can see 7.1 working for you is by placing the current BiPols above the doors on either side (not an issue at all) and have normal speakers on the rear wall angled down. This would envelop your seating area a bit better and may give you a better sound stage.


The problem with that is the bipole going above the door to the left of my couch will be right in front of the bottom of the stairs in the hallway that come partially into that corner of the living room, so the sound will reflect straight at that and towards the front of the room, I probably wouldn't hear much from it placed there?



koyaan said:


> Agreed. In your situation, 7.1 won't be a big improvement. You mentioned 6.1, however, and that might be worthwhile. For a time, I had a traditional 5.1 set-up and happend to have a surplus center speaker. I put in a small shelf directly behind the listening position and placed it there. The effect was't shattering, but was pleasant tor films and venue effects for music.


This I think might be a sollution, if I a matching bipole in the centre of the rear wall would that be close to achieving what I would experience from a 7.1 setup or will I not get much benefit from it and stick with the 5.1? If it should reap rewards would it be better to get a direct radiating speaker for the rear centre or another matching bipole?



Moonfly said:


> Another vote for the 5.1 here. I only run 5.1 for the exact same reasons, and in these kind of small UK rooms, 5.1 is all that you really need.


Yeah thanks Moonfly, we and our poxy little UK rooms eh :dontknow:

Thanks to all of you though, I don't think I have ever posted a thread with everyone coming to such a unanimous decision so quickly! If that doesn't settle my mind I don't know what will :T

Apart from the possible 6.1 option? :R

Kind Regards
Marty


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

marty1 said:


> The problem with that is the bipole going above the door to the left of my couch will be right in front of the bottom of the stairs in the hallway that come partially into that corner of the living room, so the sound will reflect straight at that and towards the front of the room, I probably wouldn't hear much from it placed there?
> Marty


All you need to do is place a small acoustic panel on the wall of the stairs (easy to build) and that will stop any reflection. By adding the rear speakers behind you the sides will be only an improvement of the over all sound.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> All you need to do is place a small acoustic panel on the wall of the stairs (easy to build) and that will stop any reflection. By adding the rear speakers behind you the sides will be only an improvement of the over all sound.


It's not the reflection that is the problem it is the fact that the tweeter that is firing backwards has nowhere to project the sound, it will be shooting straight at the wall that is in line with my left ear, from where I sit if I look up to the left hand side of the room the edge of the stairs that comes into the room is roughly in line with my ears, the only way I can describe it is it is like I am partially sunk into the rear wall. The only way for a bipole to work up there is if it is moved further into the room but then I would have to move the couch forward, which is not an option.

Kind Regards
Marty


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

I keep forgetting that this is an website were participants come from all over the world. Most folks rooms in Europe are much smaller than ours here in America, and sometimes I just assume that every room can accommodate 7.1 based on my own rooms, and the rooms I have installed systems in. 

I really admire the ingenuity of Europeans adoption of home theater. I had a really tough time shoehorning a optimized 7.1 system into a 12x15x10 room(which included a 58" 3D TV), and they can do 5.1 and a projector in smaller rooms, and still get a great sounding system. My hats off to you guys..:T


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks! Would love to have an average room size of 40 feet by 20 feet with no neighbours :heehee:

Dream on!!

Sir Terrence what is your thought on the rear centre bipole? Overkill or worth doing?

Kind Regards
Marty


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

I would rent, borrow, or steal a cheap direct firing speaker to put behind you just to check it out.
If I am thinking of a bipolar setup correctly:
you would have your sides already filling up the space behind you, then a bipolar rear speaker would be firing directly into the side speakers.

I would use a direct firing speaker behind you to get the sound directly toward you, not towards the sides, which is already filled with sound from the side bipolars.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

gdstupak said:


> I would rent, borrow, or steal a cheap direct firing speaker to put behind you just to check it out.
> If I am thinking of a bipolar setup correctly:
> you would have your sides already filling up the space behind you, then a bipolar rear speaker would be firing directly into the side speakers.
> 
> I would use a direct firing speaker behind you to get the sound directly toward you, not towards the sides, which is already filled with sound from the side bipolars.


I hear what you're saying but my worry is that having 2 bipoles and then a direct behind it will be very localised, it will also sound different from the 2 sides possibly causing distraction??

A bipole placed in the centre of the wall will have it's tweeters firing at the inside of my wife and I's ears it won't be firing directly at the side bipole tweeters, they will be slightly out of alignment.

Thinking about what you just said about them filling up the space behind me maybe it's mimicking a 7.1 setup already, ok not as detailed but is it not doing a similar job then?

Kind Regards
Marty


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

marty1 said:


> I hear what you're saying but my worry is that having 2 bipoles and then a direct behind it will be very localised, it will also sound different from the 2 sides possibly causing distraction??
> 
> A bipole placed in the centre of the wall will have it's tweeters firing at the inside of my wife and I's ears it won't be firing directly at the side bipole tweeters, they will be slightly out of alignment.
> 
> ...


Marty,
With your current setup I would not do it. You already have two bipoles scattering sound in the rear, and you really don't need anymore reflections scattering all over the place.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

marty1 said:


> A bipole placed in the centre of the wall will have it's tweeters firing at the inside of my wife and I's ears it won't be firing directly at the side bipole tweeters, they will be slightly out of alignment.
> Marty


I was thinking the drivers were aimed at a greater angle than that. If they fire more toward you than away from you, that would be good.

So do your side bipoles driver's fire more at you, or more toward the front and rear. I thought bipoles spread the sound more and left a blind spot directly in front of it, whereas direct firing drivers filled the area directly in front of the speaker?


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

marty1 said:


> Thinking about what you just said about them filling up the space behind me maybe it's mimicking a 7.1 setup already, ok not as detailed but is it not doing a similar job then?
> Marty


If this were the early 90's with old Dolby Pro Logic, I would agree with this. Back then the role of surround speakers was mostly simple ambiance.
But the role of 7.1 today isn't just filling the room with sound. This is 7.1 discrete channels. It should help to move sound around the room.

Take an example of a train coming from behind you on your right:
With 5.1 there is a single speaker in the rear right part of the listening environment. To get that train to sound as if it is starting way behind you and moving forward, there is some sound trickery involved to make it sound that way.
With 7.1 there are 2 speakers, one beside you and one behind you. With this setup there can be physical movement of the sound starting behind you and moving forward to the side surround, then forward to the front speaker.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Sir Terrence said:


> Marty,
> With your current setup I would not do it. You already have two bipoles scattering sound in the rear, and you really don't need anymore reflections scattering all over the place.


I thought that may be the case, thanks for confirming that for me :T



gdstupak said:


> I was thinking the drivers were aimed at a greater angle than that. If they fire more toward you than away from you, that would be good.
> 
> So do your side bipoles driver's fire more at you, or more toward the front and rear. I thought bipoles spread the sound more and left a blind spot directly in front of it, whereas direct firing drivers filled the area directly in front of the speaker?


They are not supposed to leave a null in between the 2 tweeters like a dipole does, but I disagree, I used to think they were dipoles and placed them as such, to the side of listening position, with our ears inbetween the tweeters. I found that they were lifless in this position. When I looked into it further and found out they were bipoles I looked into it and correct placement is supposed to be either to the side but slightly behind listening position or on the rear wall near the corners, the idea is to have 1 tweeter firing at you like a direct radiator and the other fires at behind you and reflects off the wall. Some pros over hear argue that placement but with my own ears I have tried the bipoles in all sorts of positions and 100% to the side and slighly behind is best!

The tweeters on my bipole are at an angle of 45 degrees apart from eachother if that makes sense :huh:

Marty


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

gdstupak said:


> If this were the early 90's with old Dolby Pro Logic, I would agree with this. Back then the role of surround speakers was mostly simple ambiance.
> But the role of 7.1 today isn't just filling the room with sound. This is 7.1 discrete channels. It should help to move sound around the room.
> 
> Take an example of a train coming from behind you on your right:
> ...


I think if 7.1 was used better I would agree but when I had 7.1 There was mostly ambient noises from the 2 rears In all the DTSES 6.1 movies I watched I don't remember any strong transitions being made across the 4 rears, certainly no more than I hear now, when something flies around the room it makes a nice transition from front soundstage to back or from left to right in the rear soundstage.

Marty


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

marty1 said:


> I think if 7.1 was used better I would agree but when I had 7.1 There was mostly ambient noises from the 2 rears In all the DTSES 6.1 movies I watched I don't remember any strong transitions being made across the 4 rears, certainly no more than I hear now, when something flies around the room it makes a nice transition from front soundstage to back or from left to right in the rear soundstage.
> 
> Marty


The Haunting which is a DTS ES movie had plenty of backwall action when her dead grandfather's spirit came back. The Final Destination movies had some discrete information in the rear surrounds as well. 

7.1 discrete is a format that is relatively new on Bluray, and as we use it more, we will figure out a way to use it better. There are however tons of 7.1 music mixes by Surround Records, and they are very good.


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

6.1 may add a little and it may be all you may desire, you could definitely try it. I did at one time and it added more sound from the rear. From looking at your pics I would suggest some room treatments for sure it may help things in a BIG way, I'm in Italy and I know that is where my $$ will be going, for my HT is in a concrete bunker.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Sir Terrence said:


> The Haunting which is a DTS ES movie had plenty of backwall action when her dead grandfather's spirit came back. The Final Destination movies had some discrete information in the rear surrounds as well.
> 
> 7.1 discrete is a format that is relatively new on Bluray, and as we use it more, we will figure out a way to use it better. There are however tons of 7.1 music mixes by Surround Records, and they are very good.


Thanks, now I feel so much better knowing that I cannot get 7.1 :sad:

I did think about maybe down sizing the screen, then maybe I will be able to move the couch to that central position, 7.1 will then be possible, or maybe if I got a 2:35:1 screen with the same width I could get closer?

I would say I would have to be around 10 feet from the screen in order to be in line with the side surrounds but then would I be to close to the large floorstanders in front of me, I would be about 8 feet from the front 3?

Given all the expense to do this though I get the feeling I might feel a bit underwhelmed by the end of it :scratch:

The other option is what was suggested earlier, about having the bipoles up above the doors but because of the wall issue on the left hand side, I could change the bipoles for direct firers, they would be about 8 feet up near the ceiling and then 2 rear directs on the back wall, the only snag is the rear surrounds will have to be about a foot lower than the sides due to the stairs protrusion and the pj. Would that have a bad effect on the sound or not?



Tufelhundin said:


> 6.1 may add a little and it may be all you may desire, you could definitely try it. I did at one time and it added more sound from the rear. From looking at your pics I would suggest some room treatments for sure it may help things in a BIG way, I'm in Italy and I know that is where my $$ will be going, for my HT is in a concrete bunker.


Room treatment is my next project once I get the money, I have another thread underway with Brian on the accoustics forum, he has been a great help :T

Regards
Marty


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## Tufelhundin (Jan 25, 2010)

marty1 said:


> Room treatment is my next project once I get the money, I have another thread underway with Brian on the accoustics forum, he has been a great help :T
> 
> Regards
> Marty




I have also chatted with bpape on Skype good guy and it was pleasure talking with him and clearing up on a lot of things I had questions about. I'm hoping to put in an order in the near future on a couple of packages, my concrete bunker needs a lot of help.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Ok I spoke to my local home cinema store and they said that another set of bipoles on the rear wall about a foot outside of the couch either side of the couch, he said it will work fine as you already have the side placed bipole tweeters firing at you then you will have the rear wall bipole tweeters firing at us allowing us to hear the 4 discrete channels??

I didn't say anything but I'm not sure on that as I thought that the rear channel effects should come from roughly behind you, if they go in the position he suggested then I would assume there will not be much noticable transition from side to rear?

They said that there is no full range Focal surround speakers that are wall mountable, only stand mountable, the best thing they offered was to swap the bipoles for 4 focal dome speakers which are small sats. This way I would be able to place them above the doors to the sides of the couch, about 8 feet from the ground and the 2 rears in the centre of the back wall about 2 feet apart and about 6 feet from the ground. All of them aimed down at our listening position.

Would this work or will the fact that the rears will be about 2 feet lower than the sides be a problem?

The other thing I am concerned about is that even though I will hear the full 7 discrete channels, compared to the big old bipoles the sound from the sats will be a big step down in dynamic range and will feel a bit weaker?

I want to make sure I do not regret changing over, I would love to have 7.1 but without sacrifising the overall power of the system.

Your advice will bemuch appreciated as always :bigsmile:

Thanks
Marty


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## Sir Terrence (Jun 8, 2006)

marty1 said:


> Ok I spoke to my local home cinema store and they said that another set of bipoles on the rear wall about a foot outside of the couch either side of the couch, he said it will work fine as you already have the side placed bipole tweeters firing at you then you will have the rear wall bipole tweeters firing at us allowing us to hear the 4 discrete channels??
> 
> I didn't say anything but I'm not sure on that as I thought that the rear channel effects should come from roughly behind you, if they go in the position he suggested then I would assume there will not be much noticable transition from side to rear?
> 
> ...


Marty,
Keep your system as it is. The size of your screen(which is not a bad thing) forces you to sit where you are sitting, and trying to get 7.1 squeezed into your room will require all kinds of compromises that are totally not necessary. 

If you decide in the future to shrink your screen size, at that point you can adjust your seating arrangement and think about 7.1. You will be able to do this and make far fewer compromises than you currently would have to do. 

When I set up my two small room 7.1 system, I had to take projection off the table in favor of a large flat panel. There was no way I was going to get the proper seating position for both the audio and video had I gone the projection route. Everything had to be scaled downward, from the screen to the speakers in order to get things right for both. In the end, these rooms resemble more of a studio feel, than like my actual hometheaters which have large screens, big speakers, and multiple rows of seating.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Sir Terrence said:


> Marty,
> Keep your system as it is. The size of your screen(which is not a bad thing) forces you to sit where you are sitting, and trying to get 7.1 squeezed into your room will require all kinds of compromises that are totally not necessary.
> 
> If you decide in the future to shrink your screen size, at that point you can adjust your seating arrangement and think about 7.1. You will be able to do this and make far fewer compromises than you currently would have to do.
> ...


Thanks Sir Terrence :T You are right, my impulse was looking at 7.1 but my gut instinct was telling me to stick with what I have.

I am guessing that even if I did downsize screen and made 7.1 fit the benefits would not be night and day difference from what I hear now?

I am still curious though about whether sats for rears would sound just as good as the big bipoles I have? 

4 sats in the rear vs 2 large bipoles, what would sound better?

Not changing my mind, I respect your opinion and I have taken your advice strongly on board so I will be sticking to this setup, at least in this house anyway :devil: But I would still like to hear your opinion on the above.

Kind Regards
Marty


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