# Am I crazy?



## SinCron (Dec 20, 2010)

I have a dream... an insane dream.... an absolutely insane mad scientist dream involving crossovers, professional grade class D amplifiers for subwoofers and midwoofers and class A (or AB) amplfiers for higher midspeakers and tweeters. True bi-amping to achieve the best sound possible with better efficiency power wise. Only other thing needed would be a receiver that allows you to bypass the power amp section. Something like this maybe.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The Emotiva would work. As would Denon's AVR-4311 which offers a Preamp Only Mode where the Amplifiers are taken off line. This is saying nothing of the wide range of Integra and Onkyo Professional SSP's.
Cheers,
JJ


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Are you looking for an AVR that allows you to turn off the power section, or would any AVR with Pre-outs work? Obviously, a pro-pro would be an ideal solution, though often more costly.


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## Gregavi (Sep 22, 2009)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> The Emotiva would work. As would Denon's AVR-4311 which offers a Preamp Only Mode where the Amplifiers are taken off line.


I don't understand what the advantage is with the Denon 4311 eliminating the amp section when using the pre outs. Is there some potential damage done to the amps if they are just left unused but "active"? With the 4311, do you have the option to have them on or off? If given a choice, that would be understandable.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

I am not sure I follow you. The Preamp Mode turns off the amplifiers in the AVR thereby reducing Power Consumption and reducing heat and any possibility of distortion/interference. 

While when you use outboard amplifiers on all channels as I do on an AVR the amplifiers are still powered up and consuming more energy.

The 4311 has an awesome Feature Set and I just wish Denon offered a reasonably priced Prepro, but they do not.
This and the sister A100 is the closest thing Denon has.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

I guess it would depend on the consumer's definition of reasoning , I just couldn't justify spending $ 7,500 MRSP on a prepro much less trying to justify it to the wife. Since you mentioned it JJ does the 4311 still apply Audyssey even with the amps turned off?


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## Gregavi (Sep 22, 2009)

Ares said:


> The Preamp Mode turns off the amplifiers in the AVR thereby reducing Power Consumption and reducing heat and any possibility of distortion/interference.


I would think if the amps had no load on them, they would not consume much energy or produce much heat. Some yes, but a significant amount?



Ares said:


> Since you mentioned it JJ does the 4311 still apply Audyssey even with the amps turned off?


I would guess the the 4311 uses ALL the features, including Audyssey, while the amps are bypassed. The amps have nothing to do with the processor section.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Audyssey and all other functions are active when the Preamp Mode is engaged. As to Power Consumption. Class AB AVR's to still draw power when not engaged. Without the Measurement Tools, I am not sure how much power is wasted if they are active, but not being used. As a corollary, many Reviews have noted the high Power Consumption when an AVR is set to Standby to allow HDMI Passthrough with the AVR not active. I would guess Preamp Only Mode might help reduce Power Consumption.

Hopefully when the 4311 is Bench Tested they will show the difference between Preamp Only Mode PC and when the Mode is off with no Speaker load. All I know that in theory, it makes a great deal of sense for those who only use AVR's as SSP's as I have for around a decade. If the 4311 was available when I purchased my 3007, I most likely would have purchased one due to this and XT32.
JJ


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Jungle Jack said:


> The Preamp Mode turns off the amplifiers in the AVR thereby reducing Power Consumption and reducing heat and any possibility of distortion/interference.


I never knew that Jack, Denon really have thought of more or less everything in there AVR's.

When I was using my Onkyo 905 as a processor only the heat build up was worse as the heat was not dissipating from the amp section to the speakers and it used to shut down when enclosed in my rack unit and therefore had to move it outside of the rack so as to avoid the shutdowns, very clever indeed of Denon.


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## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

In my mind I can't justify buying an 11 channel receiver and then shutting most of it off. Then i'd much rather get a prepro in the first place


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## SinCron (Dec 20, 2010)

But what about the concept of using two different amp types for the various ranges to cut down on power consumption and heat?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Audyssey and all other functions are active when the Preamp Mode is engaged. As to Power Consumption. Class AB AVR's to still draw power when not engaged. Without the Measurement Tools, I am not sure how much power is wasted if they are active, but not being used.


I had a thread on this a couple years back, but it seems to have fallen away (not showing up in search). From memory, when on with no source being played, the Onkyo 706 used something like 100 watts. If someone's really interested, I can get out the Killawatt when I get home.


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## Gregavi (Sep 22, 2009)

There are a couple of reasons I am considering an AVR as a preamp. First, it cost substantially more for a pre/pro compared to an AVR with the same/similar features and, I can most likely use those "free" amps you get with an AVR for something (bi-amping, extra surround speakers, zone 2 in a different room, etc.) But now I'm reconsidering because of the "heat" issue that has been brought up. I don't want to spend $1200-1500 and find that I've created a problem. I'm again looking at the Marantz AV7005 Pre/pro. So now it's between the Onkyo TX-NR3008 AVR and the Marantz AV7005 pre/pro. The Onkyo has a couple more features and cost $200 less (street cost), but the Marantz is a true pre/pro. I think the Onkyo is made in Malaysia and the Marantz in China. Advantage Onkyo. onder:


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Thaks to Mike P, here's the thread I couldn't find on energy consumption: http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ment-how-much-does-cost-run-these-things.html

I have the AVR @ 60 watts while movie is playing, but I think that was my old Panny, not the Onkyo. I'll remeasure when I get home and update.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
That certainly makes sense. That being said, it is advantageous to have backup amplifiers in the event of outboard amplifier breakdown. Moreover, the SSP's still tend to be more expensive than the AVR's they are often based off of which is insane considering the Parts Savings of not having an amplifier section.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Gregavi (Sep 22, 2009)

Jungle Jack said:


> the SSP's still tend to be more expensive than the AVR's they are often based off of which is insane considering the Parts Savings of not having an amplifier section.


Yeah, you'd think pre/pros would be cheaper.

It has to be because of the amount of AVRs they build compared to the pre/pros. When you make more of something, the price usually drops. You gotta figure there are 50X more AVRs built/sold than pre/pros.

It's still doesn't make much sense considering, as you pointed out, the savings in just parts alone. 7 or 9 amplifiers cannot be cheap. Which brings up the question: Do they actually have 7 or 9 separate amplifiers in these AVRs, or do they divide one giant one into 7 or 9 or whatever? I know my power amp has 5 independent amps where each one is removable (for repair, or whatever) without affecting any of the others. It's almost like having 5 mono amps.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I meant to mention the Economies of Scale argument, but I think it really is more of a Separates Tax for Companies like Onkyo as their SSP's initially were thousands less than anything that came remotely close to them as far as Feature Set goes.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Gregavi (Sep 22, 2009)

Jungle Jack said:


> ...but I think it really is more of a Separates Tax for Companies like Onkyo...


What do you mean "Separates Tax"?

PS- Don't feel too bad about my Lakers steamrolling the Hawks. The Hawks aren't the only ones to get in the way of the freight train!


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Separates Tax - Usually the people buying separate Pre-pros and amp are usually 1) spending more money on their entire system than the average consumer, and 2) are fewer and far between. To those points, the greater expense of pre-pros as related to the 2 above points are factors of

1) A higher profit margin.
2) Recoup on R&D for products which will sell drastically less units overall.

In other words, unless you need specific features that are only available in a particular pre-pro (balanced outputs, higher end DAC and vid scaling, multiple zones), the value proposition as compared to a similarly priced AVR is usually less.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Gregavi said:


> What do you mean "Separates Tax"?
> 
> PS- Don't feel too bad about my Lakers steamrolling the Hawks. The Hawks aren't the only ones to get in the way of the freight train!


Hello,
I am a lifelong Hawks Fan and that one hurt. It is hard having weak Ownership who will never stray into the Luxury Tax. Cheap Head Coach and Assistants and GM. And don't get me started on Joe Johnson's Contract...

Back to this, I meant the Audiophile allure if you will of having Separates as opposed to using an AVR which to some snobs equates to lesser performance. Perhaps a theory, but who knows I suppose...
Cheers,
JJ


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

recruit said:


> When I was using my Onkyo 905 as a processor only the heat build up was worse as the heat was not dissipating from the amp section to the speakers


I'm not arguing that this is wrong because I don't know for sure. 
But I've never heard this and it makes no sense to me.

Are you saying that having speaker wires connected to the AVR helps to dissipate the heat through the wires?
Or
Are you saying that having no load on the amp section causes it to be hotter than if it had a load?
Or
Something else?


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## SinCron (Dec 20, 2010)

Energy cannot be destroyed. It can only be converted. When you have speakers on the circuit, they will take the energy and convert it to sound waves. When there is nowhere for that built up energy to go, it is released as heat.


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## Gregavi (Sep 22, 2009)

That makes some sense but still hard for me to believe. Why then, when playing at extremely high volumes, do most amps/receivers (or whatever) get hotter than when playing at low volumes? Aren't the speakers taking more of this energy during higher volume? If that were true, the louder the volume, the cooler the amp. No?


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## SinCron (Dec 20, 2010)

Oh god no dude. You have this figured all wrong. The receiver only draws as much power as it needs from the wall to amplify the signal to where you have the volume set. You set it low, it draws less. We do not have 100% efficiency, some of that electricity is wasted, moreso in tube and A/B amps and less in the other classes. When you turn it up loud, the receiver needs to take more power from the wall and as a result of it not using every little bit of power as efficiently as possible, the wasted electricity gets turned into heat. More power, more heat. Its like turning up the pressure in a garden hose when it isn't sealed correctly. It only leaks a little bit when you first turn it on but as you increase the pressure, it leaks more.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

For the record, my Onkyo 706 with no signal fed (thus, no power output, but amps are still on), used about 65 watts. No way to tell how much of that is pre/pro and how much is amplifiers. Closest bet would be for someone with a pre-pro to measure power draw. Anyone with separates and a killawatt?


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

eugovector said:


> For the record, my Onkyo 706 with no signal fed (thus, no power output, but amps are still on), used about 65 watts. Anyone with separates and a killawatt?


I just got my meter last night.
I'm measuring mine exactly like yours. Onkyo 706 with no signal fed....

Straight off without warming up, my 706 measured 75watts, but steadily climbed.
Right now, after 20min. of warming up and being measured, it is at 104watts and still climbing, don't know where it will stop (this is still with no signal fed).

My ATI 6ch. amp measured 127watts with no signal fed to it.

EDIT Maybe we should start a thread for people to report power usage?

UPDATE After 40min. it seems to have leveled off at 111watts. Now to start feeding it a signal and adjusting the volume control.
Still with no signal feed: with volume at -80db, 111watts... volume at +7db, 115watts.

Adding a signal feed but outboard amp still off: with volume at -80db, 108watts... volume at +7db, 110watts.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Hmm, I'll remeasure my 706 and see if the draw changes after 20min.

I was hoping people would contribute their own power usage on this thread: http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ment-how-much-does-cost-run-these-things.html

I guess I should have requested that specifically. Happy to resurrect that thread or support a new one.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Wow that's an old thread, I'll start putting my stuff there.


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## janick (Mar 10, 2011)

gdstupak said:


> Wow that's an old thread, I'll start putting my stuff there.


trying to get to five posts..sorry for the inconvenience


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## Gregavi (Sep 22, 2009)

Let me help.

What does 5 posts get you?


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## janick (Mar 10, 2011)

Gregavi said:


> Let me help.
> 
> What does 5 posts get you?


i'm trying to post my REW graph but when i try to attch i get one of two errors. The one file that i try to attach alway say upload error. The other file always says security token missing. EVERY time..i heard that maybe i needed to post 5 times first


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## Gregavi (Sep 22, 2009)

Now you'll know.


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