# F113 maxxed?



## allredp (Feb 7, 2007)

Hey Shacksters,

I've just helped a buddy put in a JL Audio F113--his room is 24' D x 12' W x 9' (sloping toward to the front down 8" from 16' back). He has an 8' opening on one side into a large family room which has the stairs going to the main floor and the rest of the basement (i.e., very leaky).

With the F113 placed in the front L corner (next to the side wall toe'd in slightly and forward from the front wall about 2'), we ran the auto calibration with the supplied mic and it kept flashing that the volume was too low. So, we finally had to have it just a touch off max level (about 5:30 on the dial where 12 is half-way). 

It sounds great--especially Jurassic Lunch and chapt. 12 on the Island, but I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing in the setup which is causing the sub level to be maxxed like this.

Help much appreciated!

Thanks,
Phil


----------



## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Was the mic or the sub (less likely) in a null?

Kal


----------



## brent_s (Feb 26, 2007)

It does sound a little odd that you would need to max the amp's gain. I just read through the F113's setup manual and will ask some, possibly obvious and simplistic questions, based on that...please don't be offended.

1) Before running the ARO (auto calibration), did you set the F113's level using the preamp's test tones or a setup disc and SPL meter? Even just music/movie soundtrack by ear to get a rough blend with your mains? This is step 1 per JL. What did the receiver's trim level end up at? What preamp/receiver is your friend driving this with? Did you configure the F113 as LPF off and the level control as Reference (disengaged) before doing this step?

2) Now attach the microphone and run ARO. If the level is too low, you can activate the level control by switching it to variable and turn it up until ARO can make a reading.

3) After the ARO calibration, return the level control to your calibrated levels in #1 and set the switch back to reference.

From my understanding of the manual, ARO isn't a volume level calibration, it's sounds like an automatic parametric EQ that's trying to remove the largest frequency response peak it finds in the room. With the mic and button labeled 'Calibration', I can see where it would be easy to assume it will do auto level setting much like an Audyssey or YPAO, however, the 'O' in ARO is for optimizer, which is really what this 'calibration' is trying to do with your in room frequency response...after you calibrate the overall volume level you want.

-Brent


----------



## allredp (Feb 7, 2007)

Thanks for replying--no worries on using the manual to troubleshoot!

He has the new Yammy 1800 and we did run the Yamaha's automated calibration program before running the JL optimization gear.

As per the null question--we calculated his seating on the 1/3 & 1/5 rule for width and depth and placed his primary seating position in the sweetest spot in the room! So, there shouldn't be a null at the mic/seating position.

Thr Yamaha's LFE trim is at 0 db also--


----------



## brent_s (Feb 26, 2007)

Where was the gain set on the F113 when you ran the YPAO? That is where you should have set it back to after running ARO, per the manual.

Since you mention the 1800, you raise another intersting question. Yamaha's YPAO is more than just auto level/distance setting. Like Audyssey, it attemps to smooth the room's frequency response. Without knowing how low it's EQ goes, I can't say, but it coudl be dialing in EQ to knock down the rooms biggest bass peak just like ARO attemps. However, when ARO is run, it doesn't engage the YPAO correction. I would suggest rerunning YPAO now that ARO has tried to find its correction frequency.

-Brent


----------



## Guest (Nov 10, 2007)

Brent is absolutely correct... the level setting used during ARO is not typically the correct level setting for music. It is not uncommon to have to use a very high level for ARO calibration. This is required to get the measured response well out of the low frequency noise floor of the room. You would be surprised how much sub 30 Hz noise exists in a typical home. Once the ARO has been set, you need to recalibrate the master level of the Fathom (or use your prepro or receiver).

The perceived output for a given level setting often drops after ARO calibration, because ARO is suppressing the major peak in the response, so you need to go through level setup again.

My suggestion is to place the Fathom, run ARO and then set the Level mode to reference and use your prepro. If, for some reason you don't have enough gain, you can always set the level mode to variable and bump it up.

Hope that helps,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.


----------



## rubbersoul (Nov 12, 2007)

Tell me Phil, overall what is your impression of the JL Audio Fathom 113? Coincidentally I have similar room dimensions. 25'L 12' W 7' ceiling, however the difference is that I have a dedicated Home Theater room with no openings except for the entrance into the HT room and the laundry room... both having sound proof doors.

I recently purchased the Fathom 113 but it has not come into the store yet because the audio video store I bought it from just received the contract to sell the Fathom. It is suppose to be here by Wednesday of this week. 
As you probably know listening to speakers in the store is a totally different experience from listening in your home. I was very impressed listening to the 113 while watching Fly Boys. The next movie was Masters and Commander. 
SOLD!!!
A lot of money was spent here so I am expecting a good return for my money.

Life is Good!


----------



## allredp (Feb 7, 2007)

Hey Manville, 

Thanks so much for the info! That makes sense now--I should be a better reader of manuals considering I'm a professor, eh?!

It speaks well of your company that you are responsive to forums like the Shack and take the time to insure your products are receiving even non-official support! 

Way to go--it makes me even more likely to recommend my friends and family to JLAudio in the future...

Hey rubbersoul--

I really love the F113--it is so accurate and powerful. Like the cliche's, I keep hearing new things in scenes I hadn't heard before. My buddy hasn't had anything special in the past equipment-wise so he's just happy and doesn't realize how happy he should be!

I, on the other hand, have enjoyed M&K and SVS (PB12+/2), and am floored by the F113's ability to respond to the very different tones/shudders/booms/infrasonics, etc. that today's LFE tracks sport. 

One of my very favorite scenes is #12 "Tough Day" from "The Island." It is a combo of incredibly diverse LFE effects and soundtrack. The F113 "revealed" aspects to this scene that even my very powerful PB12+/2 (some have called it the Hammer) hasn't. Clearly the sealed config allows for better upper bass, but I'm very happy with the bottom feeding stuff as well!

I think you'll love the F113--I'll be anxious to hear your results in your room! With your "closed" room the pressurization should be really impressive!!!

Don't minimize the positive effects that accoustic treatment can provide (electronic: REW and BFD or better; and absorption/trapping, as well as placement). It made a nice difference on my 70 hz dip and brought down a pronounced peak at 31.5 hz--things are doing much better now.

Best to you in your LFE addiction,
Phil


----------



## rubbersoul (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks Phil for erasing any doubts. As I said in my previous notes when listening to the Fathom I was to say the least....impressed.
I was traveling some of the other forums from other sites and they were trashing the 113 as well as the 112's. Or at best saying the sub was a poor sub compared to the SVS subs. Actually the first subs I listened to were the 112's and THEY sounded great.
I myself am not a guy who gets into the db's, hz's, and so on. Not to say it is not important, because they are and much more then that. I do not have a spl however I did borrow in the pass one and I think that I will dig deep or break my piggy bank and buy one this time.
The last time that I used one I spent more time figuring out how to use it. My buddy who lent it to me is a pretty smart guy but never figured it out. I was impressed by myself when I finally did. 
There was a noticeable improvement, however I did do the final tweaking using the more priceless tool that one has....my ears.
Do you have an SPL meter and is it analog or digital and does it make a difference which one one uses?
Also I found a guy who does professional calibrations. He works for himself and his resume is a bit impressive. His fee is $200.00. I do not want to spend $200.00 buck if my system sounds good. However I want it to sound FANTASTIC. How good can ones' system sound with professional Calibrating?
What is your thoughts.

Thanks Frank
Life is Good!


----------



## allredp (Feb 7, 2007)

You know, it took a while, being pretty clueless about technical gear as I am, but it wasn't $200 worth to learn REW and do my own testing/calibration. 

What's this guy going to do to correct problems he finds? That $200 won't include a BFD or Rane (or similar piece of equipment) which will address your room problems, right? 

Seems to me the $$ could be better spent in other things FWIW.

Best to you,
Phil


----------



## rubbersoul (Nov 12, 2007)

allredp...Sorry that it has taken so long to get back with the results of setting up the Fathom113.Christmas and a bad cold have prevented me from jumping into my Home Theater room and I also had a severe problem with a HUM in my system that I never had before.

Enoungh with the sad stories. It is Christmas. Ther is a happy ending.

After solving the problem with the hum after having a friend of mine who is an electrician I eagerly read the JL Audio manual. I followed it exactly. I have to say I am not a tech person and therefore a bit on the thick-headed side when it comes for something to sink in and understand, however this manual was really simple read and I felt confident from the first read.

As I mentioned before my room is 25' long 12' wide and 7' high. My electronic equipment is under my screen in cabinents that I bought from IKEA. All of this is on a stage that is on a five and a half inch stage. My B&W 804's and my center speaker is also on the stage.
My first attempt in setting up the Fathom was having it on the stage between the left main and center. Not liking the results I switched the Fathom to the right side. It sounded decent but I was not fully satisfied.
I have an Outlaw 990/7700 processor and amp so in both setups let the 990 handle the crossover. Trim set to 0, phase to 0, 0 setting the LP filter. 0 dbs set on the 990. All spearkers set to small with the LFE setting. Had an Spl meter and also let the 990 do its own calbrating which I thought that setting sounded the best in my confiruration.:dunno:

My friend thought that I could have a better response from the Fathom if the sub was set in the back of the room. But I have two big home theater chairs in the front and four movie type theater chairs behind them and I thought that in that setup I would have even more problems with the tight solid bass response that I was looking for. Besides the manual suggests the placement for one Fathom to be in the front right or left corner of ones room.
Rule breaker that I am and I also wanted to see what exactly the Fathom could do I moved the Fathom to the rear corner of my room.

HEAVY and a STRUGGLE it was. I put the Fathom on a blanket an slid the sub over to as close as I could before I had to lift it six inches off the ground onto the rear stage that my movie theater chairs sat. WHEW!!!!!:crying:

Now here is the odd part of the setup. I decided to listen to the Fathom as it was in that postion with the calibration settings from the front of the room with the volume set to about 1 o'clock and the 990 set to large for the mains, small for the center and rears at a plus two decibels setting on the 990.

I used my demo disc #9 from the home theater show and wow it was so awesome. I just do not know what to say except that I am very pleased. I am going to at least for right now leave the ARO calbration stay as is. You know the old saying, if it is not broke don't fix it.

Im Happy, this was the kind of sub impact that I was looking for....of course the Mrs. was hoping for something a little more subdued. 
Let me know your thoughts about what I told you on my settings. 

Have a GREAT HOLIDAY!!!

Frank:bigsmile:


----------

