# Is this receiver and speaker system adequate?



## JR43 (Jul 14, 2011)

Hello everyone,

This is my first post and I would really appreciate thoughts and comments regarding the proposed audio set up of our home theater.

We hired a home theater company to suggest audio equipment for the theater room in the house we recently moved into. We hired the consultant because we know nothing about speakers, receivers or audio visual equipment in general. The room is approximately 12.5’ wide, 23.5’ long and 7.4’ high. Seating currently consists of three theater seats on a 12” platform with the seat backs 24” or so from the rear wall. The theater seats are about 20’ or so from the screen (the screen is a Stewart and is approximately 103”). We will, in the future, put additional seats (or a love seat) at ground level 20” in front of the platform and theater seats.
We did not give a budget to our A/V consultant. I generally talked about a 7.1 sound system that will sound good - not wanting the most expensive but also not wanting the cheapest sound system available. I looked at some HTiB systems but I really wasn’t sure what I was looking for or if the HTiB would produce good sound in a room this size. We plan on using the room for watching movies (DVD and Blu Ray), streaming movies, video games (occasionally) and music (rare).

Here is what is suggested to us;
Integra DTR-40.3 7.2 Network A/V Receiver $800.00

Samsung BD-D5700 WiFi Smart TV Blu Ray Disc Player $199.00

Monitor Audio BX-5 Tower Speakers - 1 PR (front L & R) $749.00

Monitor Audio BX-C Center Channel Speaker $299.00

Monitor Audio BX-1 Bookshelf Speakers - 2 PR (surrounds/surround backs)	$758.00

Monitor Audio BXW-10 Powered Subwoofer - 1 EA $629.00

Other items such as universal remote control, power manager, cables, etc., are also recommended but not listed here.

My questions,
•	For our size room, do these speakers seem ok to produce good sound for movies and, sometimes video games?
•	Are the speakers a little under sized for our room?

Thanks, 
Any thought or comments are appreciated.

JR


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
It is all solid equipment to be sure. When using Custom Installers, you are usually going to pay full MSRP and Installation is certainly not cheap. Much of it comes down to how comfortable you are doing any or part of your HT Build.

Given the size of the Room, I would probably want to use an Outboard Power Amplifier or really efficient Speakers like Klipschs if using a middle tier AVR like the 40.3. Don't get me wrong, the recommended HT will be vastly better than an HTIB.

I would recommend asking your Realtor to get into contact with the Previous Occupant to find out what Gear they were using and or who they used for the initial build as they might be able to help to get an idea of what they used.

I would imagine the Wiring is left in the House and it seems they also left the Projector. If you could provide Pictures, it would really help as well.

All I can say is if you feel comfortable in doing some of the Setup, you can save a serious amount of money and also use superior products. The people who gave you the Estimate are limited by who they are Authorized Dealers for and will naturally advocate the Brands they carry. 
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

JR43 said:


> We hired a home theater company to suggest audio equipment for the theater room in the house we recently moved into. We hired the consultant because we know nothing about speakers, receivers or audio visual equipment in general. The room is approximately 12.5’ wide, 23.5’ long and 7.4’ high. Seating currently consists of three theater seats on a 12” platform with the seat backs 24” or so from the rear wall. The theater *seats are about 20’ or so from the screen* (the screen is a Stewart and is approximately 103”).



Whoa! 

The average person has his seats about 9-10 feet away from the screen/speakers. This is twice as far, and could make a huge difference in testing the limits of your system.


> Other items such as universal remote control, power manager, cables, etc., are also recommended but not listed here.


Make sure not to get tricked into overpaying for cables or power conditioning. A UPS can be a good idea as long as it can deliver full power to your amplifiers. Otherwise it can be another limiting factor.



> •	For our size room, do these speakers seem ok to produce good sound for movies and, sometimes video games?


Let's examine the receiver. The Integra 40.3 seems like a decent receiver. It's rated at 110w into 8 ohms. I would be a bit weary driving a lot of speakers with it though. If it can do 110w into 8 ohms, it really should be able to do a good 160 watts into 6 ohms and a good 200+ watts into 4 ohms. Unfortunately this is not the case. A 4 ohm output is not given and the 6 ohm output is about 130 watts. Integra, unfortunately, appears to have skimped on the amplifier section in lieu of countless useless features. This is especially going to be problematic in your large room. Remember, even if a speaker is "rated" as 8 ohms, it may very well have impedance dips as low as 3 ohms in its passband - often at frequencies where power is most needed - and if your receiver is current limited then you will hear unpleasant distortion. I would never trust a nominal impedance rating. Manufacturers should always provide Z-Charts. 

Starting with the mains, they appear to be a 2.5 way design with dual 5.5 inch woofers. Assuming a crossover point of 80hz, the 2.5 way design isn't normally an issue, but at 18-20 feet away, you'll really be straining them in the critical 80hz to 300hz region. Chances are that whenever you turn up the volume, you do hear some distortion during audible peaks. They are rated at 90db/w/m - so at 20ft away, if listening at reference levels, you would need an amplifier capable of 1200 watt unclipped peaks, and this of course would really strain the dual 5 inch woofers. Now people don't generally listen at reference level, but even about 5db below refernece levels (which can be realistic if you want vocals to be clear) you would still want roughly 400 watts to have unclipped peaks. This would in my opinion still strain the woofers. It is essentially asking about 115db at 1m from the woofers. A more realistic limitation on these based on their rated power handling would probably be closer to 110db at 1m. So you could plausibly need to listen a good 10db below reference level to avoid --major-- distortion problems, and it certainly wouldn't sound as effortless as a speaker that can truly handle real output. at your listening position, you would be hearing dialogue at about 70db or so with 95db peaks. I honestly think movie dialogue sounds best at about 75db and the best home theaters are able to do 105db peaks at the listening position.

The other issue I see with such a setup is that these are wide dispersion speakers. 20 feet away is effectively "very far field", so reflections would dominate the sound - never good for clarity, natural tonality, or even speech intelligibility. If I were you, I would be looking at speakers with a controlled, narrow dispersion pattern to limit reflections as much as possible. Such a room would also benefit quite a bit from some level of room treatments in my opinion. 

Next, looking at the center channel. A 2-way MTM with 90db sensitivity. Now centers don't normally have as much dynamic content as Left/Right mains, but unless you're running your mains 10db cold or your center 10db hot, your limiting factor is the dynamic range of the mains above. The #1 issue I have with this center is its dispersion pattern in the midrange. Being an MTM speaker, its horizontal dispersion likely narrows considerably from 1khz to 2khz - smack dab in the vocal range - but not with the control i would prefer. This leads to voices sounding unnatural and difficult to decipher. I am not a fan of this type of center speaker design, although it admittedly is very common. Vertical dispersion is actually very wide and thus floor/ceiling reflections will dominate what you hear.

The surrounds should be fine in terms of output. Surround content tends to be pretty light and rarely problematic. I'd be more concerned with the multichannel amp output of the integra than the actual output of the surrounds. I suggest starting with only one pair of surrounds for the time being, with the wiring pre-done for another pair. Any money you save on surround backs may be better allocated to your fronts.

The subwoofer is a 10" sealed sub fed about 200 watts. In all honesty this I would steer clear of no matter the room. It is a european style subwoofer for people who want subs but don't want bass (oxymoron if ever I heard one). I'm sure it's musical at low listening levels but it really won't do much in terms of an experience worth remembering. Dollar for dollar I think you can do QUITE a bit better. In such a room size I would be looking at multiple subwoofers, with 12 inch drivers in vented enclosures, at the _least_.

1) Multiple subwoofers to ensure consistent coverage across multiple seats and flat response at frequencies where in room bass can be an issue.
2) 12+ inch drivers with plenty of power driving them to give clean, low distortion output. Actually I'd be looking at 15s. 
3) bass reflex alignments to extend frequency response in the large room to a deeper level.

One thing you should realize is that, where the peaks in movies are 105db at reference level at the seating position, the LFE channel is actually capable of 115db peaks. So even if you listen about 8db below reference level, you need subs capable of around 107+db at the listening position - preferably from 20hz to 120hz! A 10 inch driver may just become stressed and produce distortion, or otherwise stop making output. Rarely is a 10 inch sub even a good idea, and especially not in such a large theater room as the one you are looking at.

I find that internet direct brands are a definite way to go when it comes to subwoofers. They just seem to "get it" where brick and mortar brands are more concerned with keeping this small and out of sight than with performance.

A few brands I would recommend looking into for subwoofers include

Rythmik
Seaton Sound
HSU
SVS
Funky Waves
Epik
Outlaw Audio
JTR
Danley (they will perform well but this is a brick and mortar brand so it is a bit expensive)
JL Audio (they will perform well but this is a brick and mortar brand so it is overpriced)
Velodyne (they will perform well but this is a brick and mortar brand so it is overpriced)

Any of the above is a much more safe option dollar for dollar. I definitely recommend seeing what you can pick up two or three of rather than the most expensive option on the block. 

So subwoofers aside, do I have any recommendations for main speakers?

In your room, five brands I would be looking at would be

JTR Speakers
Pi Speakers
Gedlee
AudioKinesis
Seaton Sound

These companies make controlled narrow directivity, high output speakers which will be optimal for your room. None are voiced with any tonal hype and all are run by pleasant individuals who will be accomodating to hear out your situation and help you. Pi speakers also offers DIY kits if you're interested - this will allow you to have excellent performance. I would suggest the 3 Pi or 4 Pi (or kit for those) and recommend upgrading to the excellent B&C tweeter. The JTRs should be an awesome choice which I think you should look into very carefully. The other three are a bit more high end / expensive.

I understand that you may be limited to what your custom installer offers, but if they're willing to set up any of the above internet brands for you, i think your end results will be quite a bit better dollar for dollar. I would hope they've got something a bit more appropriate for your listening distance. 18 to 20 feet is a good ~16db of distance loss.

Other brands you should look into are JBL Professional, M&K and Danley Synergy Horns. These are pro audio speakers, so you would need to look into pro audio shops/dealers. These are the type of speakers which are appropriate for such a long throw listening distance - just make sure they sound good to your ears too. Also make sure they extend down to around 50-60hz so that they can blend smoothly to a subwoofer at 80hz.

Honestly, I might even consider adding a 200 watt separate amplifier to the above speakers. Still, with their higher sensitivity they are more appropriate for even the Integra receiver. I'm not too big on receviers/amps. If the speakers/room are setup correctly, the biggest thing better amps will do is increase clean undistorted output at peaks. 

All of the above said, what you're looking at is likely worlds better than an HTIB. an HTIB may not even suffice for some people's bedrooms, never mind your huge room. And sound quality /speech intelligibility/ immersiveness is normally lacking even at low listening levels. Dynamic sequences will just be harsh and difficult to listen to.


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## JR43 (Jul 14, 2011)

Hi Jungle Jack,

Thanks for your reply. Yes, using a custom installer certainly isn’t cheap - I’m starting to understand that now. You are correct, the wiring is still here as well as the projector - thankfully.

I am going to research this forum more to see if I can get a level of comfort and do some of the work my self. Also, I’ll do more research into speaker selection and see what I can come up with.

Thanks again.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I agree with both, I do have a bit of an issue also with your seating distance from the screen. A 103" screen at 20ft back is going to seem a bit small in my opinion. Personally I would move the seating forward to about 14ft on the floor and add the ability to have a second row of seating on the 12" riser. I sit just over 12ft from my 120" screen and thats perfect for field of vision and sound.


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## JR43 (Jul 14, 2011)

Hello GranteedEV,

Thanks for your reply. I guess the seating distance is far now that you mention it. I may be able to do something about that in the future.

Your tip about overpaying for cable and power conditioning is well taken - I’ll do my research now.

It will take me some time to digest the more technical aspects of your post, and that will be a good reason for me to do more research and more reading on this forum.

Thanks again for your suggestions.


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## JR43 (Jul 14, 2011)

Hi tonyvdb,

That is an excellent idea! There are only 3 of us in the house and we would all benefit immediately by moving the current seats forward and down.

Thank you,


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
It really sounds like you have the type of space that many can only dream of. Please understand that the Construction of such a Room costs a fortune. It is only a shame that the past Owners did not leave more of the Equipment. Moreover, that your Realtor did not at least try to make the demand of leaving the Theater as is.

That being said, we really can help you. I think the best thing to do is to find a quality Custom Installation Firm that will allow you to use the AV Components that you have and only pay for Labor.

The issue with moving your Seating forward is that where they are placed are almost positively in the sweet spot from the Screen. Stewart makes some of the finest Screens available and I am guessing that the Projector is top notch as well.

I would again try to find who did the Original Installation. You could tell them that you had the equipment and were only interested in Installation. Again Pictures would help us greatly.
Cheers,
JJ


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

All excellent recommendations. HTS members can help you save a bundle by helping you purchase equipment that will serve your needs while perhaps shaving some costs where they might be better used elsewhere. If you want to watch movies at home rather than the theater except for select showings, I assure you when you're finished, the only disappoint you'll have will be _at the theater_. 

I think the key is taking your time, that way you can build it in a way that best suits the room as well as your budget.


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## rubbersoul (Nov 12, 2007)

I have to agree with all of the above mentioned REPLYS. You can always get good sound advice on this Forum. I love it.
Your room dimensions are similar to mine. Room length 25'. Room width 8' at the screen and to the back of the Theater 13'. I tried to design my room similar to a movie Theater for better room acoustics.
Example.../\ 8' at the narrow point and 13' wide at the widest point of this example.
Sorry for the poor diagram.
Seating from the screen is 14' first row.
I was always one to believe that the more power you have the better. It cannot hurt you in the end. I currently have the Outlaw 990/7700 which has 200 watts per channel.:hsd: Awesome movie watching.

In the end it boils down to the buck....how much you are willing to spend.:spend:
As mention you can save yourself a lot of money if you do the install and setup yourself. Jump into it and use the saved install money for better equipment.
Besides it is fun! That is what it is all about.
Not to say what was offered to you is inferior I just mean that there is a lot of equipment out there...on the internet with reputable companys.
Another suggestion is the use of TWO subwoofers.:T One in the front and one in the rear of the room.
Lastly, Room acoustics, including diffusing. VERY IMPORTANT. Determine whether your room is Live or Dead sounding. 

Do not know if you are interested but check out my classified ad on this forum under Remote, Cables and Accessaries 

Some websites: E-Bay, Audiogon, Videogon, Blue Jean cables, Aperion Speakers, Auralex Acoustics, Axiom Speakers


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## Ttime17 (Oct 23, 2008)

All of these are excellent replies. I found the advice here extremely valuable from both a knowledge standpoint as well as a cost saving advantage when I built my system.

A couple of items to consider: 1) Don't ignore the used market. There are great deals around on some excellent equipment. Check out Audiogon and EBay. I picked up a used Lexicon LX7, Arcam AVR700 and a pair of NewForm Research R645's for less than $4500 in total. New the equipment would run approx $15k. 2) Internet retailers seem to have a leg up on bang for your buck. OPPO Blu-ray players are IMHO the best buy in home theater available. A top end SACD, CD and DVD player in one package is a good buy. EMOTIVA, OUTLAW and SVS offer exceptional value as well. I picked up sound treatment from ATS and was blown away by the product, delivery and difference it made in my room.

Have fun, this is a very rewarding project that has a way of turning into a hobby.


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

I also agree with everything suggested so far. Please choose your equipment carefully , The last thing you want to do is buy something and not like it and not be able to return it.(money wasted) Buying locally from a dealer , you can return sometimes, and exchange , but you will pay more , buying online at such as A4L , will always save you money , but with limited returns. I would start with making a plan of what you want from the finished project ,want you would like to to look like, and try to establish a budget , and what you are starting with. Didn't you say you have a projector? which model? Do you have any pictures of the room your starting with? What's on the floor ? whats on the walls? are you going to repaint etc? sound treatments, Also I would suggest staying away from ALL home theater in a box systems. you will be very disappointed . I will be happy to make some suggestions , but I would like a little more info so i can suggest products that will fit your project needs and BUDGET as well . There no reason to suggest a $ 12,000 audio system if you have a $ 1,500 budget in mind

P.S. here is a link to pictures of my dedicated Theater:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...s/38598-forrester-dedicated-home-theater.html


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