# Total Newbie Seeking Some Sage Advice



## jdaly (May 15, 2010)

Hi All,

So, I recently bought a new townhouse and I'm interested in setting up my first real media room. I tripped across this site and was blown away by the advice and community so I thought I'd post some spec's and see if I couldn't get some sage advice from all you experts.

In a nutshell, I'd like put together a nice media room with good overall surround sound system -- nothing to fancy -- just a good middle of the road system.

Here are the components I have thus far. As you can see, I've basically got a nice HDTV, a PS3, and a couple of B&W 601-S3's, so I'm more or less starting from scratch.

TV: Samsung 58" Plasma Model # PN58B860
DVR: DishTV VIP 612
PS3 (its about a year old -- the non-slim model) running the latest fw upgrade 3.0x
Speaker +Stands: A pair of B&W 601-S3's
Room: Width 11'8" x Length 21' x 8' Ceilings
Budget: $2k - $3k
(See attached pictures for more details) 


Questions:

How would you go about outfitting a room this size? Given some of the home theater rooms I've read/seen about here, lol, this room is tiny!

What components am I missing or should I upgrade? I just bought the tv a few months back so I'd like to keep it and I've had the B&W speaks for a few years now (great speakers btw) and I bought them with the intention of using them in a surround sound system but after reading a number of posts here not sure if I should stick with them or go with a completely new system and just use them elsewhere in my home.

Given the rooms limited size, who should the speakers be placed to get the best effects? The front and center speakers don't seem to be a problem, but I noticed after reading a number of posts that the back/side speakers should be positioned behind the couch 2-3'. LOL My problem is that if I were to do that, the couch would be in the middle of the room! lol

Anyway, as you can see I'm just getting started and any pointers or tips you pro's can send my way would be more than welcome. 

Thanks much in advance!


----------



## Guest (May 15, 2010)

Check out http://www.dolby.com/index.html for setup examples. Navigate consumer and setup.

If you can, try and get a matching center channel to your L/R speakers. If you don't have room behind your sofa, their is absolutely no shame in a 3.1 system. You could add some acoustical tiles behind the sofa. Any decent rated modern amp with a mic setup will work and for a sub, I'd go with a kit. An example.. http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8611


----------



## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

First off,... Welcome to the Shack.

I would not say you are starting from scratch, I'd say you got a pretty good jump on a nice media room.
Biggest problem I can see is, well, your room. Unfortunately you are very limited in your placement options. Side mounted surrounds will likely be fine, though you may want to consider dipole surrounds. They have fallen out of favor due to advancements in new surround formats but, they could be helpful in some situations.
My first thought, you need a sub :T
And if "you" like the B&W 601's, don't worry about what others think of them.


----------



## Toby Jack (Feb 5, 2010)

Surround speakers always seem to be the most challenging when it comes to the placement, size and WAF (Wife Acceptability Factor.) Also your couch looks like it is right up against the wall so if you mount speakers on the wall above your head they won't be firing in your direction. I agree with the post above me about side surrounds. Maybe you can get similar sized bookshelves and place them on speaker stands pointed toward the listener on either side of the couch. Not sure how you would run the wiring though. 

The only reason I would get rid of the B&Ws is if you were going to get B&W towers. :T


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

If you like the B&Ws, and IMO they are a fine speaker, go ahead and use them for surrounds, mounted on the side wall facing the couch, and upgrade the fronts and add a matching center, using B&Ws. Having matched speakers with similar tonal character all around is the best case. It is hard to beat B&W in speakers, though in subs there are certainly better choices.


----------



## jdaly (May 15, 2010)

Good morning,

Thanks for all the feedback.

Yes, I do love my B&W's and I would agree.. lol .. if I were going to do anything with them, an upgrade would be the way to go!

I realize my room is quite small and doesn't offer much space which is why I came to the pros! Ideally I'd like to setup a 7.1 surround sound, 3.1 just won't cut it for what I have in mind. I understand the space is far from ideal but I don't think it should limit my options that much -- or does it?

I did take a look at the B&W dipoles but they are quite large too and given my space issue not sure they would exactly fit, but I'm sure that they would do the job. I've been thinking I could just move the B&W's to another room (a den/office I have) and basically start fresh in this media room. If so, what would you recommend? AVR? etc.?

Again, thanks for all the feedback and pointers. Looking forward to more responses.


----------



## jdaly (May 15, 2010)

Any thoughts about the 7.1 Deluxe surround system with SBS-01 mains and PB12-NSD in combination with the SSS-01 bi-poles for the back channels?

I've read a lot of pros/cons about bi/di-poles but not sure I understand the differences. Some folks speak highly of them while others give them the thumbs down. Also, is there a difference between a a bi-pole speaker and a di-pole speak? 

Again, maybe I'm misunderstand the technologies, but i got the sense they were different from a couple of different posts I read.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Welcome to the Shack.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Toby Jack (Feb 5, 2010)

Not sure what your budget is, but if a full 7.1-channel B&W set is a little too pricy for you (it is for me), you might consider Paradigm speakers. I LOVE Paradigm for everything from the performance to the aesthetics—they are just phenomenal speakers. Here is the 7.1 set I would recommend, including an AVR:

Front L&R: Studio 60 tower speakers x 2
Center: Studio CC-590
Side Surrounds: Studio 10 bookshelves x 2
Rear Surrounds: Studio Esprit on-wall x 2
Subwoofer: Studio SUB 12
AVR: Onkyo TX-SR807 135W x 7.2 channels

The studio line by Paradigm falls in the bang-for-your-buck category combining the perfect amount of performance and fines at the right price. I feel like this is a realistic set-up considering the room size and standard home theater budget. You can go online here to find a dealer & some pricing. 

I don't know as much about subwoofers which is why I recommended one within the Studio line. Other members will most likely have better recommendations. The Studio Esprit on-wall speakers would be perfect for your rear speakers since your couch is against the wall. The Studio 10 bookshelf speakers can set on stands to the right & left of the couch. I think you will find this set of speakers quite pleasing.

And finally the Onkyo receiver I chose because it provides the right amount of power to make these speakers really sing. It also has an impressive set of features including Pandora radio and a THX certification! Good luck!:bigsmile:


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I definitely agree that Paradigm makes wonderful Speakers. If your budget is not enough for Paradigm's,
DMC-Electronics and Saturday Audio have some amazing deals on the PSB Image Series.

For instance DMC is selling the Image T45 Towers for 479 (749 MSRP), C60 for 299 (449 MSRP), B25 for 319 (479 MSRP) I would actually do dual T45's Front and Surround if your budget can accommodate it.
Here is a link for the Speakers:https://dmc-electronics.com/Default.htm
Here is a link for a Review of the T45:http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/psb_image_t45.htm
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Matching surrounds and fronts isn't necessary according to Floyd E Toole because they hit your ears at different angles. I'd just pick up 4 surrounds and set them to the sides and 2 behind you if you have the space back there. If you are sitting on the wall directly sometimes angling the surrounds back toward the wall in front of the couch gives a better experience. Surrounds aren't critical so I suggest you get something small and easy to place. I personally use KEF 2001.2s and they are amazing surrounds. Something like that would be just fine for surround duty. 

A center isn't always necessary. Especially if you like the way your movies already sound. Though in your setup they could be helpful.


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

I think what may be much more important is similar sensitivity and tonal character. I have installed and serviced hundreds of surround systems over the years and the best that I have experienced have always had matching speakers. Certainly there are other priorities in the cost of a system that might result in different decisions, but if it can be done, I would recommend it.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I definitely agree with Leonard. That being said when doing Audio Triage with a limited budget, I definitely advocate making sure the Front and Center Channel (Frontstage) are done first.

I am a huge believer in having matching tweeters in all channels. Especially the main 5 channels. For instance, I am contemplating adding Martin Logan Motion Series for the Height Channel for DSX.

This is more an issue of size as Martin Logan ESL's are over 5 feet tall so adding matching Height Channels really could not be done in my Room or setup. However, the Front and Surround Speakers use the identical Panel and my Center Channel is Martin Logan's current Flagship. Again due to the size, unless using an FP Setup, there is simply no way to add a matching Vantage as my Center Channel as it would block the view of my TV!

In a sense, all ML CC's are a compromise in view of the ideal which is identical Speakers for all Channels. Nonetheless, the vast majority of people with HT's use a different CC than Mains.
That being said, in a recent Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity, the Reviewer found the Martin Logan Stage to be the finest CC he had ever had in his HT. So clearly, Speaker Companies really work hard at getting the tonal characteristics as close to possible to the Front or Main Speakers.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## aboroth00 (May 15, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I definitely agree that Paradigm makes wonderful Speakers. If your budget is not enough for Paradigm's,
> DMC-Electronics and Saturday Audio have some amazing deals on the PSB Image Series.
> 
> ...


I'd definitely recommend PSB Images as well. I had the t65s in my setup for a while and loved them. If you can go bigger do it!


----------



## aboroth00 (May 15, 2010)

Also David at DMC Electronics was very helpful and would give you an honest opinion.


----------



## newrival (May 18, 2010)

I'm with generic on this one. 

7.1, or better yet, 7.2 is fantastic... when you have the room. But when you dont, you dont. The couch is against the rear wall meaning youd have to set the rear surrounds directly over the listeners head (in THX configuration) and likely sending confusing reflections. Even in standard "corner" setup your rears would be where the sides should be and the sides somewhere inbetween those and the fronts, kind of like secondary fronts. Perhaps this setup could work with some in-walls (gasp!) but I agree, there is no shame in a really nice 3.1 (or 3.2  setup. 

Check out this link describing how this is achieved with the highly acclaimed DCM time window Surroundscape: http://www.dcmspeakers.com/manuals/TimeWindowSurrScape.pdf

Unfortunately these speakers are super rare, and even harder to pry someones hands from them. 

Regardless, this is just to illustrate that achieving a great theater sound doesnt need to have a bunch of speakers around you. But if you really want surrond speakers, a 5.1 system like nova describes seems like the best option. 

As a side note, Those B&W's seem pretty close together. I'd try getting em out around 8' apart and play with the toe angle. I like the 601's with a little toe-out, but if your amp is a bit more laid-back i'd trie them starting out at toed-in around 5°


----------



## newrival (May 18, 2010)

oh and one more thing, for 3 grand you could get a killer 3.1 setup for 3 grand on the 2nd hand market with a little digging and research.

a conservative budget - 
receiver 600 
amp 400 (3 channel x 200W)
front speakers 800 (floor-standers with serious cabinet space)
center 300 (made by same company that has same compliment of drivers)
sub 600 (can easily find a second had hsu thatll rock your world)

A great setup would be NHT. Like the NHT Evolution P5 for fronts with a threeC center. You could go with an NHT, Velodyne or Hsu sub and have a system thatll p off the neighborhood:bigsmile:


----------



## jdaly (May 15, 2010)

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the great feedback and sorry for the delayed response, but that nasty thing called WORK got in the way. I can see I've got a bit of reading and thinking to do. Still pretty confusing to the untrained, uneducated, wanna-be like me, I'll be researching all your recommendations and coming here before making any purchases.

I did manage to stop by the stereo shop where I picked up the set of B&W 601-S3's that I have and talked with them about building out a budget B&W surround sound system and here's what they recommended. I've also come to the realization/understanding that given my room dimensions that a good 5.1 system is really about the best option. Anything beyond that for my situation I think would be overkill.

The Stereo Shop Recommendations:

* 5.1 Surround Sound System
* Two AVR Options; 1) Integra DTR-40.1 $1000, or 2) Integra DTR-50.1 $1400
Both where THX Cert, however, the higher end unit had ISF flatpanel calibration capabilities -- which the seem to be pushing. 
* Fronts: B&W 601s ( I have these already)
* Center: B&W HTM62 $425
* Rears: B&W DS3 (Dipoles) $825/pair
* Sub: B&W ASW620 $650/pair

Fortunately, they had all these components setup in one of their HT Showrooms, so i was able to sit and listen, and I must say, they did sound good, but then again, for the $$$ and from my limited experience, what the hell do I know! lol

I also asked about the B&W 684 HT Kit (Fronts:684's, Center:HTM62, Rears:686's, and Sub:AS610) which went for $2350.

Thoughts?Feedback?

Btw, a couple last questions, what/where is the best place to shop/price/buy B&W equipment and how do people feel about purchasing used or refurb products?

Thanks!


----------



## newrival (May 18, 2010)

nothing wrong with used equipment (as i mentioned earlier) it saves you money for the upgrades! and there are ALWAYS be upgrades :T:


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2010)

I've bought used before, but it came with a warranty. You can buy used from a private owner, BUT if it breaks in a day or a year, you are on your own. Some people might have great luck. Not sure.

I think floor demo units or refurbished units with a warranty are a much better way to go and open box items that people returned, but if you want to gamble and go for the huge saving, buy used from private owners.


----------



## jdaly (May 15, 2010)

Update...

I've been researching the Onkyo SR876 and NR1007 as I've seen both units were highly recommended.

In particular, I like the networking capabilities of the NR1007 as I would like to take advantage of the audio/video streaming capabilities this unit offers, however, this unit lacks the Reon video upscale processing features of the SR876.

Having said that, my Samsung PN58B860 does have built in video upscaling capabilities, but I don't know how they stack up to the Reon, so my questions are; which would you recommend and why? 

Btw, both of these units sell for about ~$850 a piece while the SR907 which does have both networking and Reon goes for over $1k -- which is more than I really want to pay.

Also, I'm curious to know if anyone knows or has experience with the Nr1007 *dual room feature* as stated here:
"As Onkyo’s first ever 9.2-channel receiver, the TX-NR1007 combines network capability and advanced A/V processing with a myriad of surround sound speaker possibilities. For instance, you can use Audyssey DSX™ or Dolby® Pro Logic® IIz to create an expanded, more immersive 9-channel soundstage for games and movies. _Alternatively, you can supplement one of several different 7.2-channel set-ups in your main room with 2-channel sound in a second room._ Along with the assurance of THX® Ultra2 Plus certification, the TX-NR1007 brings greater convergence to your home entertainment. Audio files from a networked PC or streaming internet radio can be fed to the receiver, and then processed and output with customary Onkyo power and fidelity. Audyssey MultiEQ™ XT ensures a well-balanced, room-matching speaker set-up, while ISF video calibration and 1080p upscaling via Faroudja DCDi Cinema™ work to get the most out of your video sources. Merely cherry-picking the specs, though, doesn’t do justice to this mighty receiver—we suggest giving it an audition and letting your own eyes and ears be the judge."


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Either would be excellent choices. If your Speakers are demanding, I would go with the 876 as it is a bit more powerful. Also, Reon really is an excellent Video Processor. In truth, the TX-SR876 is my favorite sub 1000 Dollar AVR.

Are you planning on using 7.2 or 7.1 in your HT? If not, I believe with the 876 you can have a 5.1 setup and send 2 channels of Amplification to a Second Zone.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## jdaly (May 15, 2010)

Given my room size I'm planning on a 5.1 system, however, as I mentioned, I'd also like the networking features of the Nr1007, but was wondering what I would be giving up since it doesn't have the Reon video processing capabilities.


Also, I'm not sure I understand this 'Dual Zone' feature -- can you explain? For example, if possible I would like to route music to another area of my house and drive speakers there as well, but something tells me I would need a 2nd receiver for that purpose.


----------



## newrival (May 18, 2010)

here's my take:

I've purchased over 30 pairs of speakers used. As long as you're not purchasing sight-unseen, and get to demo them, you have very little to worry about. i have never had a pair of speakers, an amp, a receiver, nor a component act up, except on one occasion in which a speaker showed up with a blown driver, but it was purchased on ebay, and i got my money back. 

go to audiogon dot com and look around. if anyone can attest to the benefit of second hand its them and other stereo guys. Theyre trading and selling $50k speakers over there with no warranty. if you pruchase from a reputable person, there is always a guarantee that the items will show up in working order. 

do what youre comfortable with, but quality built audio equipment is exrttemely resilient. and engineered to perform for decades. aside from my receiver, htpc, and ps3, my equipment is all almost older than I am (im 29) and I'd put it up against anyones theater. could it be better? always. but I would wager you'd have to spend $20k more than i did to match it with new gear.



*edit: this commentary is mostly referring to audio.


----------



## newrival (May 18, 2010)

dual zone means that you can have speakers (usually only 2 channel audio) in a seperate room or area and it independently controllable. meaning that you could be watching a movie in one room and listening to a cd in another


----------



## jdaly (May 15, 2010)

Any thoughts on the Onkyo SR876 vs. NR1007 -- I see I can pick up both for about $850 and would like to pull the trigger ASAP, however, the NR1007 lacks the Reon processing but the SR876 lacks the networking capabilities.

How important is the Reon processing? Is the vp of the nr1007 (Faroudja DCDi Cinema™) inferior? I'll be using this unit mainly to watching movies in a 5.1 setup.

Thanks in advance for the feedback!


----------



## newrival (May 18, 2010)

well i think the questions are: how much upscaling will you really be doing? and, how much networking capability do you really need for your receiver and for what tasks? personally i'd got for the better vid processor and run an HTPC or net box or popcorn hour or something for all the networking. you can always add that capability but youre stuck with your video quality.


----------



## Toby Jack (Feb 5, 2010)

I would say, given your screen size, just leave the upscaling to the Samsung. If you had a large projector screen, then a high-quality video scaler might be necessary.

In regards to the Onkyo receiver: Just consider strictly the features you will ACTUALLY use. By going from 9.2 channels to 7.2 channels you could downgrade to the TX-NR807 which still has networking capabilities (including Pandora Radio & Rhapsody), still has 135W per channel, still has 6 HDMI inputs and costs roughly $250 less ($898.99 on Amazon) You may find that even this receiver has way more features than you will ever use. Go to Onkyo's website and start at the top, going down and eliminating the features you don't need. I promise you don't need to spend more than $1000.


----------

