# Martin Logan in the house!



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Welp... I finally did it! :dumbcrazy: 

I have always wanted to try Martin Logan's in our home theater and have put it off for years, mainly because I never could afford them and/or never ran across any really good deals on used ML's.

I ran across a pair of Ascent i's for what believe is a good deal, so I pulled the trigger and they are on the way.










Of course now I have to find a suitable ML center and something for surrounds... as well as the Denon 2807 probably ain't gonna do the trick amplifier wise. :spend:

I'm probably going to be looking for a used Cinema i and I'm not sure about the surrounds yet. I've found some used Scripts, but need to consider all my options. If anyone sees something floating around somewhere, please let me know asap.

I've also found a couple of good used amps:

Parasound HCA-2205a - 220wpc/8ohm 300wpc/4ohm (Asking $1275)
Parasound HCA-1206 - 135wpc/8ohm 200wpc/4ohm (Asking $800)
Sunfire Cinema Grand 5 - 200wpc/8ohm (Asking $1000)
Rotel RMB1075 - 120wpc/8ohm 200wpc/4ohm (Asking $775)

The Ascent i's are 4ohm speakers, as are most ML's. So any of the above would work.

Any other recommendations?


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## toecheese (May 3, 2006)

Lucky! Those are on my list of must-haves too.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Man.. you da Man!

I didn't know that you needed an amp for the ML's. For some reason, I thought they were built in. Since they're obviously not, why don't you think the Denon can drive them? 

A very jealous,
JCD


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## cjwhitehouse (Jan 31, 2007)

Congratulations! ML's really like amplifiers that can shrug off really low impedances (1 ohm or so around 20kHz). Many amplifiers just don't sound happy with them. I have Prodigy/Logos/Sequel II's driven by Krell. Once experienced, nothing else seems real. :bigsmile:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Yeah... I've read quite a big on amps and it seems the lower end receivers are not favorable for ML's.

However... maybe I should try. The Denon is 110wpc/8ohms... 140wpc/6ohms and dynamic power is 170wpc/4ohms. With the Ascents i's crossed over at 80Hz, it may surprise me.

ML does make a powered speaker, I believe it's the Purity. Supposedly a MP3 player, TV, computer, whatever... can be plugged into it with nothing else.


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## brent_s (Feb 26, 2007)

Don't overlook some of the big block Adcoms while you're shopping. Should be deals to be found. I don't know if the M-Ls would have a complimentary voicing, but I'd rate the Adcom sound to be neutral, possibly bordering on analytical, to me accurate is a good word...at least compared to the Rotel I was A/B comparing on some B&W towers way back when.

I wouldn't walk past a deal on Outlaw, ATI, or even the past two Sherwood-Newcastle multi-channel amps either. 

JCD, M-Ls being electrostatics do require a "bias" current, thus requiring them to be plugged in to function. A casual glance at some Martin-Logans in a listenting room would probably lead one to believe they were internally amplified.

-Brent


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

You know... I use to be a huge Adcom fan. I had their monoblocks for a long time way back when. I can get a 7605 125wpc/8ohms 175wpc/4ohms for a good price. That is definitely one to consider.

There are several good deals on ATI1505's, but the Outlaws are short. The ATI is one I've always admired. Back when I purchased my Earthquake Cinenova Grande 5, I considered the ATI2505.


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## kurt (Aug 2, 2007)

I had the NAD master series M25 driving my summits. It sounded ok but even at 160 watts/channel it didn't power it properly. 

I would suggest getting as much power as possible. Most Martin Logan owners that I know run Krell or something with a low distortion. Logans are capable of producing such clear mids and highs why not get something that shows that off a little.

I ended up switching up to the Krell 402 amplifier. 400 watts/channel It was like night and day. Instead of sounding like my speakers were yelling at me with the NAD more power made them sing to me and have proper control and sweetness.

I had a whole 5 channel martin logan setup at first but got rid of it for a 2 channel logan setup. I mainly listen to music rather than movies and it just sounded better with 2 channels.


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

Wow Sonnie you lucky dog! I heard some electrostatic speakers (can't remember the brand) years ago run off of a Denon 3200 and they sounded great. ML's though I believe have a fairly non linear impedance and draw a fair amount of current through the mid range. The sunfire might not be a bad way to go as it has two different outputs, so you could play with the sound a bit. Otherwise as a happy Parasound owner... you would not be sorry. Congrats! I guess this means no Klipsch?


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## Exocer (Apr 19, 2006)

Congratulations on the speakers! 

When they arrive I would love to hear about how they sound.

Are you crossing them over at 80hz to help minimize impedance concerns with your receiver?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

kurt said:


> I would suggest getting as much power as possible. Most Martin Logan owners that I know run Krell or something with a low distortion. Logans are capable of producing such clear mids and highs why not get something that shows that off a little.


I think I have an ATI 1505 worked out already with a guy... waiting to hear back from him, but did make a commitment with a condition. This unit is still under transferable warranty. It does 250wpc at 4ohm, so the Ascent i's should fair well with it. 



thxgoon said:


> Congrats! I guess this means no Klipsch?


Thanks! ... and that is correct... no room for Klipsch. I wanted to go Klipsch, but I just couldn't seem to nail down a really good deal on them, although at full retail they are probably still a good deal. I've been keeping my eye on Audiogon for a deal on some ML's for a while now and the opportunity just happened at the right time. I've always wanted ML's... I'm definitely feeling lucky.



Exocer said:


> Congratulations on the speakers!
> 
> When they arrive I would love to hear about how they sound.
> 
> Are you crossing them over at 80hz to help minimize impedance concerns with your receiver?


Thanks again! No doubt I'll give a user review after a few days with the setup.

Crossover will be at 80Hz even with the amp, which I'm already pretty much sold on getting, just to make sure there are no issues with proper power to the ML's.


I believe I have scored a demo Cinema i at a dealer for the center, as well as a pair Fresco's for the surrounds. Hopefully it will all work out. raying:


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## Scuba Diver (Sep 28, 2007)

You are a lucky guy. Not only are those some of the coolest looking speakers I have seen they also sound amazing. So how much did you actually pick these up for? Do they sound as good in you home as you hoped they would? :T


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

wow! those would be my dream speakers as well ... I just don't have the space for them. 
wish they had bookshelf ESL's that look like mini floorstanders 

pictures! pictures!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

These generally go for around $2000 used... they retailed new for around $4300-4500. These are one-owner lightly used, only a couple of years old.

There is pair on Audiogon for $3000... and another pair for about $2000, and maybe some Ascents (not i's) that are older for less.

You can actually get ML Source's for around $2000 new, probably discounted if you shop around a little. They have several other newer models for around $1000-1200 now.


I missed the ATI1505... the guy wants money order or check and I'm just not into that with someone I don't know. PayPal or Visa protects me... check or money order does not. I did find another one for less money without original box, but haven't heard back from the seller yet.


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## titch-- (Sep 15, 2006)

I heard that Kevin Haskins (DIYCable) Exodus Audio amps work really good with electrostatic speakers.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Those are a good bit out of my price range, unless of course I could find a used one for $7-800.


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## SierraMikeBravo (Jul 1, 2007)

Hey Sonnie!

Congrats on the ML's! I used to own the Logos and Aerius i's! Loved'em! Matter of fact, I got to tour the Martin Logan factory here in Lawrence this past February. The showed me how they make all of the electro static panels. It would amaze you at how simplistic it really is. I was thinking I could make those in my garage! The guy who started the company learned everything right from the good 'ole Spar Engineering library ot the Univeristy of Kansas. I've perused some of the books he used as I spend a lot of time in that library. Hope you enjoy them!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks Shawn... that sounds like an interesting tour.


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## jerome (Apr 24, 2007)

Congratulation with your new speakers !

I have a pair of Vista and really like the sound and imaging Martin Logan speakers produce.
For your center, you could have a look at Swans. The F1.1C or even better the monster F2.3C match the ML very well.
Many people here in Norway like to use tube amplifiers on ML. That's worth a try ...


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks Jerome and welcome to the Shack!

I know there a lot of "ecstatic" Vista owners out there... :T

I've actually went ahead and committed to buying the Motif center. 

I've never owned any tube amps in the past, but I may consider one if I can find one at a reasonable price :sarcastic: ... and use it for two-channel listening, which is something I've not really done in years (lotsa years).


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

I tried a new ATI 1505 about 7 years ago and found that it clipped at theater volumes when driving my ML reQuests, Logos, and Scripts. I went with the Sunfire Cinema Grand and have never had clipping.

John


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Congrats on the ML's I bet they will sound sweet.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks Fred... I'm gonna sure give them a shot at sounding good.


Hi John and welcome to the Shack! I think I'm going to end up with an Anthem MCA-50, which seems to have plenty of power to do the job. It's much more robust than the ATI. I somewhat wish I'd never sold my Sunfire amp... it was one of my favorites.


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## Kruppy (Feb 28, 2007)

Congrats on your new purchases Sonnie,
I love the Ascent industrial design and would like to eventually upgrade (but I need a sub first). If you haven’t owned ESL speakers before be very patient with them. Minor location changes can make a huge difference to sound stage/imaging/bass response (You probably know this already).

I currently own ML SL3s and a Cinema. Speaking of Adcom, I’m driving the SL3s with an Adcom GFA-5800 (Nelson Pass design) and the Cinema with an Adcom GFA-5503. I’m pretty happy with the 5800 right now (and really can’t afford to upgrade).

Once you get your Motif you’ll have to post your thoughts. There are a number of people out there wondering about its performance.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks Bob! 

I almost purchased a pair of SL3's before I found the deal on the Ascent i's.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Got the Ascent i's in today... gorgeous speakers! Unfortunately a minor scratch during shipping. The box side had a huge hole in it and you could clearly see about an inch or so scratch on the side of the speaker. Obviously it will not effect performance, but would hurt resale value if I ever did decide to sell them.

Got them setup and I must say, even with the Denon, awesome is not a fair enough word. I believe I have finally found what I've been looking for. It did take a little setup time, but I dialed them in and they are just simply awesome. As I was coming back inside to get something, my wife went out and checked them out while I had David Gilmour in Concert playing. When I got back in the room, her response was, "Those sound good, you are going to keep those aren't you?"

I've worked out a deal on an Anthem AVM-50 and MCA-50 combo. Sweet! A dream is happening! I can't wait to get it all in and setup. I think I'm gonna be happy!


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> I've worked out a deal on an Anthem AVM-50 and MCA-50 combo.


WOW:hail:with this combo and the ML's you are playing in the big leagues Mr.:T


> I think I'm gonna be happy!


If these new toys don't do it for you then you better just give up the hobby altogether.:bigsmile:


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> I've worked out a deal on an Anthem AVM-50 and MCA-50 combo. Sweet!


Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetttt!!!!!!! Any pics yet?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks guys! No pics yet... waiting on everything to get here. Hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll have everything in and all setup.


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## Bob_99 (May 8, 2006)

Along with all the other previous posters, congratulations on the newest member of the family. That technology always fascinated me and I almost bought some MLs but for some strange reason I just had this notion in my mind that the electrostatic construction would end up cover with animal hair (two dogs and a cat). It's probably just one of my many crazy moments.

Bob


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## jerome (Apr 24, 2007)

Bob_99 said:


> ...but for some strange reason I just had this notion in my mind that the electrostatic construction would end up cover with animal hair (two dogs and a cat). It's probably just one of my many crazy moments.


Electrostatic loudspeakers are so easy to clean: you only have to vacuum clean them once in a while. Another solution is to play VERY loud to get the dust off the membrane ...


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

lol... There ain't a brave enough animal to come in my HT room... addle:

We do have a cat, but he has never graced us with his presence in the HT room since it's dedicated.


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## Bob_99 (May 8, 2006)

> We do have a cat, but he has never graced us with his presence in the HT room since it's dedicated.


 Another advantage to the dedicate room folk. :T

Bob


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Here's a pic... kinda dark. I guess I need to get a bright light and place in there while I'm taking the pic. The flash isn't enough. I'll also take some close ups of my gear later on. This is practice.

The sound is definitely what I've been looking for... it has finally arrived!


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

when you talk about improvement in sound, is it just with music? or did HT improve as well?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

It's hard to tell with movies... or at least I haven't really noticed a significant difference. I've only watched a couple of movies and neither were anything special. I just got the center connected today and listened to a little bit of the Eagles, but there was no center information with PCM. I'm not sure if I change it to DTS if there is center info or not, but that DVD sounds quite a bit better than it has on anything else and significantly better than the Boston's. I watched about 5 minutes of Transformers but it wasn't enough to determine anything. I also watched a couple of tracks of David Gilmour before I had the center... awesome... just awesome. The guitar just sounds sooooo much different through the ML's... it's definitely a sound I like. I don't know how to describe it... maybe crisp and openess... I just don't know, but I like it a lot.

I'll update my thoughts once I've watched a few more movies.

I do know that on the front row, the middle seat is the only one that sounds so sweet. The side seats are good, but not like the center seat. When I move to the back row they sound pretty good all across.


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## jerome (Apr 24, 2007)

From your picture, it seems that you have rotated your speakers too much towards the listening position. Did you position your speakers using the _lamp_ test as described by ML?

I'm asking you that because I also tried to point my speakers towards me and the result was a reduced stage and minimized sweet spot.

Finally, ML speakers sound better with space around them. It's not always possible but I would recommend to try to move them from the side walls as far as you can. Finding the perfect location is not easy but the results of a few minor modifications can be greater than expected :bigsmile:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Never heard of the lamp test... I didn't see that in the manual. I read 1/3 inside viewed from listening position. I had them toed out more, but they sounded better toed in as they are from the sweet spot. No matter how I toed them there was no sweet spot outside of the center front seat. The back row outside seats sounded better than the front row. 

Can't move them any further from the walls. There is only a few inches before they would be in the view between sitting in one of the outside front row seats and the screen. It's hard to tell from that picture. I can take a pic from one of those seats and show you what I mean though.


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## jerome (Apr 24, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> Never heard of the lamp test... I didn't see that in the manual. I read 1/3 inside viewed from listening position. I had them toed out more, but they sounded better toed in as they are from the sweet spot. No matter how I toed them there was no sweet spot outside of the center front seat. The back row outside seats sounded better than the front row.


You can find the description on page 10 of this manual:
http://www.no.martinlogan.com/pdf/manuals/manual_vista.pdf
The main reason for using a flashlight (or laser) is that you can accurately see and adjust the speaker placement.
Now if you say that they sound best the way they are on the picture then don't move them. Just trying to help :R



Sonnie said:


> Can't move them any further from the walls. There is only a few inches before they would be in the view between sitting in one of the outside front row seats and the screen. It's hard to tell from that picture. I can take a pic from one of those seats and show you what I mean though.


I have the same problem at home but I decided to prioritize the 2-channel system. And anyway, even if we are several watching a good movie, I always sit in the middle seat on my sofa !!!! :yay:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

For a movie it's not as big of a deal since the bulk of it comes from the center. Music and concert DVDs is where the outside front row seat is not as good.

Thanks for the tip... I'll check it out anyway.


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## Captain Crunch (Apr 2, 2007)

Outstanding set up Sonnie.
Iv never hear ML's but I hear they are truly great speakers.
Congrats on the new speakers and enjoy them man!


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

Wow sonnie those look just awesome! They must sound just incredible. I heard ML's years back and was always impressed with their sound. Try some movies with good instrumental tracks and I bet you'll hear the difference. Something like Gladiator, Independence Day, Dearly Beloved (Beethoven movie), Apollo 13, The Perfect Storm or anything scored by James Horner or Hanz Zimmer. Enjoy! I know a lot of us are drooling:bigsmile:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks guys!

I watched Live Free and Die Hard last night and I noticed quite a difference. The screen seems like it's much wider... it's like the sound comes from the entire front wall, but then voice dialog is still where it should be. Any music is big and broad... wide soundstage. Definitely a difference. Off axis for a movie was still very good as well.

Btw... LFDH is one awesome movie for bass and surround sound... maybe even the best I've heard... at least up there with the very best.


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## Captain Crunch (Apr 2, 2007)

I agree it was a very good movie for LFE and surround. I'd say it's just right below Transformers. To my ears anyway.
But both are great movies to show off your speakers and subs to your friends.


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## John S (May 31, 2006)

Congrats Sonnie. I am sooooo jealous. I'll never forget a few years ago I took a favorite CD over to a friend's to hear his MartinLogans. I don't know what the model was, but they looked just like yours. After I heard the first 5 seconds of that CD I knew what the definition of "mid-fi" was--which was the stuff I was listening to in my house. A true revelation.


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## conchyjoe7 (Aug 28, 2007)

Sonnie:
First, congrats on the new speakers! I have no doubt that you will love them. That said, I think many of the amps you are looking at are under powered for what the MLs "need". Do what I did...if you can't afford both at first, buy that Parasound HCA-2205AT and you will be thrilled. It is powerful as need be (385wpc @ 4 ohms), and delivers a LOT of current (60 ampere peaks per channel) which the MLs will love and IMHO need. Later, you can go and get a Parasound 2 channel HCA-2200 mk II which will give you 400wpc @ 4 ohms and 90...yep 90 ampere peaks per channel for that ultimate "musicians in the house" listening experience. While I do not have MLs, my Aerial 10Ts also require a lot of current and amps that can smoothly sail over low impedence bumps...The Parasounds will do that in spades and sound as good as all but the priciest of amplifiers (and I'm talking automobile priced amplifiers).
Let us know what you do, but do not buy an amp rated at 125wpc into 8 ohms, they won't cut it with those bad boy speakers (not even in their 4 ohm modes)! :T
Cheers,
Konky.
Oops...guess I should have kept reading before suggesting, as you have made your decision and a very wise one at that. You can do no better than what you have...


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks John and Konky... it is a very nice setup indeed. 

I agree too Konky... less power would not have been the logical choice. The Anthem gear proves the Denon just wasn't enough.


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## ACGREEN (Feb 23, 2007)

congrats on the speakers. I looked long and hard the ML's before going B&W and KEF. You can't go wrong.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks AC!


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

I remember listening to the ml prodigies when Audio King carried them (Think I was 15...) and I was very impressed with how lifelike they sounded. Plus who could deny the cool factor. They are beautiful. 

I was always told that the martins sound best in a very large room, Im just curious, how big is your room, and can you tell if there is any reason to believe youre not getting the most out of them due to limited space? 

Congrats. I love getting new gear. I would love to be able to pick up a whole set of speakers in one swoop. It took me seven years to put together my setup. Good thing I like how the DefTechs sound (for the price anyway)


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks Randy!

My room is very small and I don't know if I'm missing anything or not really... they sound great, which is what counts. I suppose it's possible they might sound better if my room was bigger, but it's definitely not a requirement or a necessity.

In looking through the ML owners thread over at the ML forum, I viewed bunches of setups in very small rooms like mine, so it must be okay.


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## jerome (Apr 24, 2007)

As I have seen, having a large room can help but I think that it's better to have a relatively small dedicated room (where you can freely control speaker placement and room acoustics) than a large living room (with large reflective areas for instance).

Electrostatic speakers are very sensitive to small changes like floor position, angle, etc. Probably more sensitive than any other speakers I have tried. I have never heard them sounding very good in the shops I have visited. I had to wait to visit a proud owner to understand what they can really deliver ...


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> My room is very small and I don't know if I'm missing anything or not really... they sound great, which is what counts. I suppose it's possible they might sound better if my room was bigger, but it's definitely not a requirement or a necessity.


We all wish we had bigger, better, dedicated rooms, this or that etc. etc. Instead get the best you can out of your room with placement and treatments. I also have my ML's in a small room - a partial basement (I call it my Audio Bunker) and have achieved some very good sound in it. BTW, what is your room size?



> In looking through the ML owners thread over at the ML forum, I viewed bunches of setups in very small rooms like mine, so it must be okay.


Rear wall distance is more of a concern than side wall distances. With the curved panel you will still get some side wall reflections, and this is a great point for treatment. 2" of something there will help improve your sound (Auralex, Fiberglass, Rockwool, etc.). Did I seen treatments behind the speakers next to the screen??? Room treatments is one of the best things I have ever done for my setup in performance vs price. If you can find something you like (looks wise) it is well worth the efforts.

Try out different toe-in and toe-out of the speakers, play with the panel tilt by adjusting the back and/or front feet up or down, play with moving them forward and backwards a few inches, and find the way you like it best along with what works best in your room.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Room size is 11.5' wide x 19.5' long x 8' high... and yes, there is some treatment on the front wall on each side of the screen and the side walls at the first two reflection points, but it's all only 1" stuff that I installed many moons ago. I really need to get some corner traps to go in those front two corners and thicker panels for the sides, including moving the higher up.

I've been experimenting the placement, etc., and found the best for now. Once I get my pair of PC-Ultra subs in the house... I will have more placement/movement options given the extra room, albeit only a little bit, but it might make a difference.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> Room size is 11.5' wide x 19.5' long x 8' high... and yes, there is some treatment on the front wall on each side of the screen and the side walls at the first two reflection points, but it's all only 1" stuff that I installed many moons ago. I really need to get some corner traps to go in those front two corners and thicker panels for the sides, including moving the higher up.


Size is similar to mine, so you should have luck with them. You are moving in the right directions with the treatments. Corners, floor to ceiling if you can do it, and first reflections are great starts. Behind seating position is usually the next recommend place.



> I've been experimenting the placement, etc., and found the best for now. Once I get my pair of PC-Ultra subs in the house... I will have more placement/movement options given the extra room, albeit only a little bit, but it might make a difference.


I thought I had read where you were moving them around to find the best place. Is the room primarily for HT Movies? Just curious what made you decide on the SVS subs? Prior owner?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Yeah... I have been moving them around quite a bit, but have found the best for now. I may experiment more when I get the new SVS PC-Ultras in since they take up less room. It will allow me to get a few more inches distance between me and the speakers.

Mostly HT, but I watch quite a few concert DVDs.

SVSound are solid subs and yes I currently own a pair... just upgrading for their better subs plus to have a smaller footprint with cylinders. I also have the Behemoth DIY dual RL-p15 in the rear of the room. I'm not hurting for bass at all. :bigsmile:


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> SVSound are solid subs and yes I currently own a pair... just upgrading for their better subs plus to have a smaller footprint with cylinders. I also have the Behemoth DIY dual RL-p15 in the rear of the room. I'm not hurting for bass at all. :bigsmile:


Glad to hear you like the SVS subs - the bottom line with any audio equipment!!! And with your DIY's - awesome HT bass!!!!

Remember to try out the forward and back tilt of your ML's. If you have never done this, you can tailor the sound even more to your liking. 

As noted by others, the ML's will be ruthless in regards to the upstream components and their abilities. How are you liking the Anthem's? 

Someone here suggested "...do not buy an amp rated at 125 watt into 8 ohms, they won't cut it..." for your ML's. A very broad statement. Depends on the quality of the power, not the numbers. They should come listen to my "measly" 125 watt amp (name withheld) driving my CLSIIz's :devil:. I also have a 250 watt amp (again name withheld) and the 125w is superior in sound quality. (edit) Let me add that there are times where more power is needed, just do not confuse power with quality until you are able to listen and confirm it.

Bottom line, each should listen in regards to their preferences and budget before purchasing any components. Numbers really tell you nothing other than what marketing people want to tell you.

Sorry to digress...let us know how things go with the ML's and your setup!!! I may be interested in contacting you on the DIY sub!!! I have two in my room, one for music and I engage the other for movies. For the "movie" sub, I may want to replace with a nice DIY 15"


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I tell ya... I just don't think it gets any better than this. I am absolutely tickled at how good it all sounds. The Anthem setup really helped the ML's at higher volumes.

I'll still experiment with tilting the ML's... the spikes allow this pretty easily.


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## jerome (Apr 24, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> I'll still experiment with tilting the ML's... the spikes allow this pretty easily.


Did you get spikes with your MLs or did you have to buy them separately ?

I saw in the Vista's manual that I could use spikes to tilt the speakers but I have checked and I did not get them when I bought the speakers. So I currently use CD covers to do the job. It does the job but it's not very nice :no:


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

Significantly better than the Bostons eh? I've just made a mental note to audition some MLs.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

jerome said:


> Did you get spikes with your MLs or did you have to buy them separately ?


These came with factory spikes... very nice adjustable spikes.



SteveCallas said:


> Significantly better than the Bostons eh? I've just made a mental note to audition some MLs.


I wish Rodny could have heard the MLs with the Denon receiver. He had already heard the Bostons and agreed they were too bright. The MLs were noticeably different with the Denon... definitely not bright. The sound improved at louder volumes when I swapped the Denon for the Anthem gear. I have been chasing this sound for years... excellent! The Denon is no slouch at lower volumes, but the Anthem does allow me to really crank it up


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> The sound improved at louder volumes when I swapped the Denon for the Anthem gear. I have been chasing this sound for years... excellent! The Denon is no slouch at lower volumes, but the Anthem does allow me to really crank it up


Each component has its own sound signature, and with audio being a personal thing, with each individual liking a certain sound, it is hard to generalize and say a change from one component to another would/should be better. 

For myself, my ears, tastes, etc., I would have bet the bank on the Anthem outperforming the Denon - a no-brainer, especially with the ML's. IMO, receivers are a great place to get started in audio, but with the ability to buy some really nice used equipment (Audiogon) at a great price, makes it even easier to get a true taste of better sound.


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

Sonnie, are you going about any of these electronics changes systematically or just plug and play while changing speakers at the same time (SVS to Boston to ML)? You've noted hearing changes between Yamaha, Denon, and Anthem, but in controlled blind testing, myself and others found zero differences between a "high end" pre pro and a very cheap receiver.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Nothing technical... but I do know I noticed differences, some I liked and some I didn't throughout all the changes. It may simply be a combination of changes in frequency responses... :huh: 

Before the Yamaha I had the Denon 3806 with the Earthquake Cinenova, then sold the Cinenova. I believe I ran the 3806 for a short while by itself on the SBS-01's. I don't remember much about it, but I also don't remember complaining. I remember the McIntosh/Snell setup I had was pretty good... somewhat laid back, which I've always liked. But after that, the Sunfire, Rotel, Earthquake and Denon various combos with the PSB Image, VMPS, JBL speakers... all seemed pretty much the same. The JBL's did seem a little on the bright side initially, but I firmly believe they changed in sound and were no longer as bright after 40-50 hours of play. The minute I noticed it, I told Wayne about it. I didn't keep them long because I was experimenting/playing around with inexpensive speakers after being whipped really bad with the VMPS speakers. I was talked out of ML's to buy those VMPS RM30's and someone should have spanked me for doing it. Anyway... after the JBL's I moved the SBS setup from my great room to the HT room and ran them off the Earthquake and thought they sounded about the best I'd had out there. It was surprising to me.

Then I got the Yamaha V1700 and I clearly remember it sounding more laid back and smooth with the SVS SBS setup. I liked the sound and could probably go back to it and live with it. What was contributing to the difference I was perceiving... I do not know... and maybe in a double blind listening test, I would not have heard the difference... but I will never know for sure. It wasn't long after I got the Yamaha that I sold it because of the feature quirks. That's when I got the Denon 2807... which I do know was not as laid back as the Yamaha, but it was acceptable. I didn't do that much listening at that time anyway since I was waiting on the Bostons to get in. 

Once the Bostons got in... I procrastinated for quite a long time... maybe 2-3 months or so. Seems like it was a long time anyway. I watched movies, but never did any listening to my concert DVDs where I seem to be able to notice more of a difference in things. Music tells me more, especially the ones I've listened to 40-50 times already. When I finally did listen to the Bostons... I was somewhat surprised at how bright they were. I was disappointed. Rodny agreed they were indeed bright and sounded different than the SBS-01 setup. There was just no doubt about it. But to be completely fair... what we listened to that we noticed such a difference in was between the Yamaha/SBS combo vs. the Denon/Boston combo. 

Rodny has (or did have) the same Yamaha/Boston setup. He agreed his setup was not as bright. However, the listening environment is very different too. There is not any apple to apple comparisons or blind listening test going on here... just what he and/or I can remember most about the sound. This is all listening at fairly high listening levels... cranking it on up. IIRC... seems like someone mentioned the Denon may have been clipping, distorting the signal, etc. I don't know... I just know the sound was different and I didn't like it nearly as well.

Then came the ML's. The Denon 2807 seemed to hold it's own at lower volumes and sounded good with the ML's for the most part. Totally different type of speaker, so that obviously if contributing to a difference. The sheer size of the drivers/electrostatic panels probably account for a good bit of the difference. At medium-high volumes (not sho-nuff cranked up though)... the Denon was still okay. I never heard the brightness that I heard with the Bostons. I was actually pretty well pleased... happy for a change. To tell ya the truth, I really wasn't expecting a dramatic change from the Denon to the Anthem equipment. I had already made up my mind not to expect anything significant if anything at all... other than maybe the ability to play the ML's a little louder and not fear cranking it up as I was reserved about doing with the Denon. 

Once I got the Anthem gear all connected and setup properly, not just the processor, but the amp as well, I immediately started listening at higher volumes, the differences started to be noticeable. The more I turned up the volume, the more I liked it. I've just not heard imaging like this before. It was literally like the sound opened up... became broader and more powerful. (I'm terrible at describing things.) Smooth, crystal clear.... airy... enveloping? It's almost like being "in" the music and movies. The concerts and movies I have watched seem big and able to fill up the whole screen and there seems to be more detail floating around. The clarity is remarkable. 

You just gotta hear it to understand what I'm trying to explain. I have not heard anything like this in a long time, if ever. The only thing I can credit is the change in all the equipment, but I suspect the ML speakers played the largest role in the improvements I heard. 

It could have very well been that I had a bad Denon receiver... way off on the response, but I can assure you... you would have noticed a difference at higher volumes. 

I can't wait for Rodny to hear this and give me his thoughts. Hopefully after the first of the year things will slow down for both of us and we'll have some time to visit.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2007)

SteveCallas said:


> Sonnie, are you going about any of these electronics changes systematically or just plug and play while changing speakers at the same time (SVS to Boston to ML)? You've noted hearing changes between Yamaha, Denon, and Anthem, but in controlled blind testing, myself and others found zero differences between a "high end" pre pro and a very cheap receiver.


Not to take this thread of Sonnie's new ML's off track, but I had a Yamaha RX-V1400 used for movies and SACD MCH pass-through (I have dedicated amps for all channels and HT Loop on my Pre Amp, so everything ran through the pre-outs). I auditioned an Arcam AVP-700 (among MANY other processors) looking primarily at the pass-through for improved (hopefully) SACD playback, with movie playback and movie sound a far second. 2 Ch is ran through my Pre Amp and not a processor or receiver.

To make a long story short, as my review of these two units is posted on other forums, the Yamaha was brighter sounding compared to the Arcam. And as an added bonus, the movie sound and surround playback was also better on the Arcam. I was surprised that even pass-through could affect the sound that much.

Did I do blind testing for myself, no, but like Sonnie stated in his comments, the change was there and quite evident. The only "blind like" testing was I had one unit hooked up and had my daughter listen (she is my audio buddy) and then changed units and had her come back down. She heard the same changes I did - but she did not know which unit was playing.

Dan


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

SteveCallas said:


> Sonnie, are you going about any of these electronics changes systematically or just plug and play while changing speakers at the same time (SVS to Boston to ML)? You've noted hearing changes between Yamaha, Denon, and Anthem, but in controlled blind testing, myself and others found zero differences between a "high end" pre pro and a very cheap receiver.


Steve - Where did you perform these test and did you posts the results anywhere we can read? I find this quite surprising. I've heard differences between receivers and high end gear, as well as between different brands at the same price point. My subjective opinions between Denon, Yamaha and some high end gear I've heard (Krell, Sunfire, Parasound) are along the same line as Sonnies. From an EE standpoint all louspeaker/cable/amp systems are a function of RLC and none are designed exactly the same way. Of course there will be differences.

Sonnie - I'm glad to hear that you are getting such exciting results out of your ML's. Sounds like you have found sonic nirvana!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

thxgoon said:


> SSounds like you have found sonic nirvana!


I really believe I have. I am continually amazed at the sound. Now I think I know why ML owners are so loyal.


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## jerome (Apr 24, 2007)

As I have seen, there are only two ways to upgrade from ML speakers:
1) Upgrade to other brand of electrostatic speakers (at higher price)
2) Upgrade to horn-type of speakers (Avangarde Uno/Duo for instance)

I agree with you Sonnie: once you hear ML then you're sold. When you get them you never want to let them go, never !!!!

I'm so happy too that I own one pair of those :yay:


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## fibreKid (Apr 20, 2006)

Oh man, I listened to some ML speakers about 2-3 years back. They souned really nice but a pair of MLs would have taken up my entire 5.1 budget. Hence I know the sound but I can't have it :crying:

I'm happy for you Sonnie :bigsmile: Enjoy the sound, kind of like good popcorn. Crisp and buttery at the same time. Yum!


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2007)

First off - congrats on the ML Asents (i) This is actullt my first post, so be kind. We have something in common, as I have the Asents-i main fronts. I am a huge ML fan, and have listened to many speakers. There are alot of misconceptions IMO on ML electrostaics, and the same can be said for similar planner-maggies and the such. I have the Asents up front, Theater-i C/C, and rear Aerius (not the (i) version) surrounds. I have the Asents with the maple rails, and I changed the Aerius to maple to match, I use Axiom QS-8s as my 7.1 side surrounds. They are a wonderful surround speaker that match (as closely as a non electro-ML can match) very well. I would not use any receiver with a larger ML. if you want them to sound what they are really capable of. The ML's ohm dips will absolutly tear up receivers, and as detailed as ML's are, they will pronounce or expose that same detail in adverse ways with a "receiver". Thats not to sound "seperates uppiddy" it's just not the right application for the ML design. If you "had" to run a receiver Denon and H/K would be best, but not suggested. They really need some room behind them to be ideal, maybe you can - maybe not? a little helps alot. Just be patient, they are paticular, but when you get it right - it will be really right! 
I run the 2 channel signature carver/sunfire, and a 5 channel carver/sunfire combo (for 7.1) and the TG-4 processor. I have looked at the new TG-5 but can't justify the additional money vs. upgrade. The TG-3 and TG-4 are awesome processors. There are many fine choices for amps and processors for the ML Asents, I like the performance/price point of the sunfires. You can get some older one (5-7 yrs old) that are reasonble, and they are rock solid. My sunfires don't even break a sweat when really cranking in either 2 channel or H/T. My room is 19Dx14Wx8H but we are building a new home where the new room will be 24Dx16Wx12H and it's wide open (not dedicated) I have just sould my (2) 20-39 PC plus SVS subs - for (2) new PB 13 Ultra's. The Ultras will be built in to the front stage wall - as they are front firing and front ported. The ML Asents sound is IMO FAST, very fast, open - airy- detailed - crisp - spacious - accurate - very accurate - all right - I am gonna shut-up now. Very wise choice IMO, Jon :jiggy:


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Welcom to the party, Jon. I bet I'm not the only one who would love to see some pics of your setup, it sounds like you have a sweet system.


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2007)

I dod not realize that sonnie was no longer running the Denon receiver. Read the earlier posts. As he has stated these "type" of speakers do need some clean grunt to run them accordingly. I have a few older pics, just looking forward to moving this equipment to our new home. We have never built a new home, it's real fun laying it out the way you want, other than then wife would not OK a dedicated H/T room. And the budget had something to do with that.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Hello Jon and welcome to the Shack!

Nice setup... :T


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## phogandive (May 3, 2006)

Hi,
I also run ML's in my system. CLS's right and left (with active crossover and 12" DIY woofers), and a Theater-i for a center. Also an 18" Velodyne sub along with a Buttkicker setup. I use a Panasonic projector with a 120" screen, an Outlaw Audio 990 pre/pro, and several assorted amps (Classe, Carvers, and a Behringer for the rears).

Enjoy your new speakers,
Peter


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Yep... I think all of us ML owners are members over at the ML forum. Great place for ML info. :T


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2008)

I LOVE my asents (i) I would only part with them if (a big IF) there was a great buy on the ML Summits. I have been looking and lurking for the past few months.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

You just missed a fairly good deal on some Summits at Audiogon.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2008)

Yup, your right sonnie, that's what I have been looking for. Summits in the 6K or slightly below area is a deal. On top of that the guy is in fl. lauderdale which is only about 30-40 minutes from me. No shipping would have also helped. I would prefer maple, but at a good price I can overlook the wood color - that's for sure.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I was just admiring and Aerius pair from a guy in central Florida for $850. The wife wants some speakers in the great room... but, that might be stretching it since we'll need a receiver as well.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Exactly... I can only afford a small receiver for the great room and no way it will do justice to the ML's. I'm more than likely going to be looking into a HTIB type setup. The Aerius ML's were merely an admiration only. :T


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

Ok Sonnie, you and few others here have piqued my interested in ML's to say the least. How do you feel about the sound of your ML's at louder listening levels, say -5 from reference? Are they pretty good with large dynamics? Thanks!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

The absolute best I have ever heard... bar none! I'm telling you... these speakers are magnificent. I simply cannot imagine anything better.

Ask Rodny what he thought about them today. We mainly fiddled with setting up the system with the new NAD T785 receiver and the pair of SVS PC-Ultra subs, but he still got a pretty good listen and we cranked it on up very well.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2008)

Sonnie said:


> The absolute best I have ever heard... bar none! I'm telling you... these speakers are magnificent. I simply cannot imagine anything better.
> 
> Ask Rodny what he thought about them today. We mainly fiddled with setting up the system with the new NAD T785 receiver and the pair of SVS PC-Ultra subs, but he still got a pretty good listen and we cranked it on up very well.


Sonnie, you are killin me, just did the *exact same thing*. this set-up is actully for a home we are building in about 6 months, but why not enjoy the new Ultras now? The new room is about 100% bigger, and about 300% more c/f. This room is 14.5x19x8. The Ultra's came in friday. Played around and enjoyed them all day sat. Do you have the new pb 13 ultras or the previous ones? What do you have the cross-over set at with the asents with dual ultras in the system????? :yay::help:


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Nice setup Jon!!

You guys are making me , I just need to work more overtime so I can afford some Martin's:daydream:

:spend::spend:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

:bigsmile: You have the perfect guy to finance them for you... who needs cash? :spend:

Jon... awesome setup there. :T 

I have the PC-Ultra subs. They gave me a tad more room to back the ML's up a little more vs the boxes. I have the Ascent i's crossed over at 80Hz.


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> :bigsmile: You have the perfect guy to finance them for you... who needs cash? :spend:


I do I do! So I can finance some ML's of my own :daydream:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm in the lending business, but only if you live in Alabama and within about 50-60 miles of my office can I be much good to you. :huh:

You could always move to Alabama, but if I lived in Colorado, I'm not sure I could leave there for Alabama... unless I lost my marbles, and then it wouldn't make much difference what speakers I owned. :dumbcrazy:


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## Guest (Jan 29, 2008)

Rodny Alvarez said:


> Nice setup Jon!!
> 
> You guys are making me , I just need to work more overtime so I can afford some Martin's:daydream:
> 
> :spend::spend:


Saw your IB pics = awesome. Very nice:yes: I think/know you would LOVE the ML sound, if they lack anything (with the summits being the exception at around 12k) would be the low end, and I think you have that covered:yay: The detail of the ML's is something to behold. Breth-taking highs and mids. Vocals are as REAL as, well real. They are that accurate, I biased, but honestlt with all the different changes I have made over the years I will never own mains the are box/woofer design, but that's me. The maggies (magnaplaner) are also some incredible speakers IMO.


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## grapenuts (Jan 18, 2008)

I just bought the ascent i's with a stage center and although I'm still waiting on the center to arrive (thursday delivery time) but my gosh these Ascents are the real deal. It would be difficult if not impossible to get this much depth, imaging, and detail from a all woofer speaker at this price range IMO. GO ML...wait, GO GIANTS!!:neener:


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## jerome (Apr 24, 2007)

Have you ever heard horn speakers? Like the Avantgarde Uno/Duo for instance?
They are more expensive than your Ascents but you can get them much cheaper when used.
I had the opportunity to listen to a very well calibrated system based on some Duo and they sound wonderful, way in front of all the ML systems I have heard.

Don't misunderstand me: ML are great, I love mine :T. But we have to be realistic here: it's possible to get greater sound with different speakers too ... :boxer::bigsmile:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I have not seen an Avantgarde speaker I would allow in my house. Those things are ugly.  (No offense to any owners we might have gracing our presence :bigsmile: )


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## jerome (Apr 24, 2007)

Well, I have to admit that they are special. And their colors are not always helping either. But they deliver if you're ready to give up a lot for them.:wits-end:

Anyway, Martin Logan rocks !!! :T


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## grapenuts (Jan 18, 2008)

Jerome,
I've heard plenty of Klipsch set ups in my day and they don't compete. But I've never heard the Avantgardes:huh: Look, I'm not saying there aren't Woofer speakers that can match the ML's, but you show me a 5K pair of Woofer speakers that can come close, and I'd be impressed.:dunno:


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## jerome (Apr 24, 2007)

grapenuts said:


> I've heard plenty of Klipsch set ups in my day and they don't compete.


Agree. I wasn't really thinking of Klipsch to be honest with you 




grapenuts said:


> But I've never heard the Avantgardes:huh: Look, I'm not saying there aren't Woofer speakers that can match the ML's, but you show me a 5K pair of Woofer speakers that can come close, and I'd be impressed.:dunno:


You can get these for 5K-6K here in northern Europe (used, not brand new):















And yes, I know: they are not very pretty compared to most of the ML :no:


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## grapenuts (Jan 18, 2008)

Man Jerome you were determined to show me a pair weren't you :bigsmile::surrender: 
Although I've never heard those, they look formidable. But hey, they're used for that price, My ascent i's are quite a bit less used =)


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

Ok, all this Martin Logan talk here on the Shack has raised my interest to the point where I want to give some a listen. When I head back up to visit family in late April I'm going to try and stop at a ML dealer in Indianapolis and do some auditioning with Vistas. What is the general consensus on the current ML line, namely the Vistas? Two and a half years after purchasing my VR3s, I still haven't heard anything I'd want to change them for - I can't say I'm optimistic, but it would actually be pretty impressive to hear something I like better.

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out the general pricing for ML speakers - I'm hoping the Vistas would at least be less than $5,000?


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## grapenuts (Jan 18, 2008)

vistas are sub 4K. They are pretty nice and a step above the JM Labs Focal 918s I auditioned at the same time. The vantages are the next one up the line and the additional 1K will get you a powered woofer. Some very happy Vantage owners at the ML owners forum. I personally like the look of the Prodigy/Odessey/Ascent i speakers. Bold and beautiful and I'd pit my Ascents against the Vantages any day. Now I say that having listened to the Vantages at Tweeter...vs my ascents in a much better acoustical environment :bigsmile: Not to mention my Ascent i's are paired with two Velo SPL1500Rs for the low duty.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

If you do not end up owning ML's I would be very surprised. It is like night and day difference to me... the Boston's do not even come close. Who knows though... maybe my ears are that messed up. Something to consider though... you hardly ever see a following in speakers like ML has... witness the owners forum that is very active with loyal owners.

I think you do much better buying used myself, unless you just want new. In most cases you can find almost new ML's at great prices on Audiogon.


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## superchad (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice system you have there, as a former owner of Electrostat Hybrids I would like to offer am idea or two to you,

I ran the Parasound amp with mine on the panel (my Innersound Eros MKIII have their own bass amp and external crossover) and was very happy with results, also I used Magnepan for surrounds and even Center and I really liked the results, the Magnepans can be purchased cheaply factory direct and swing out of the way when not in use, for the money they cant be beat. About the only rub is most recievers wont do them justice but I think most Logan owners apply seperates at that level of gear. Good luck in your search! Chad


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

Though I still haven't heard a pair yet, what bothers me is the use of a single 8" driver to cover from 450hz dwn. No worse than a bookshelf speaker, but bookshelf speakers don't really cut it in my opinion when trying to reach a certain level of performance. Matched with a great subwoofer and an 80hz crossover, that 80-250hz range becomes very important. Thoughts?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

It's not an issue for me. I'll see if I can get you a response graph posted today.


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

I'm not so much interested in a response graph, as I'm sure it stays reasonably flat to at least 60hz. I'm worried that a single 8" wouldn't be able to keep up in the 80-250hz range when volume levels get spirited. What is the woofer configuration like on your model of speaker Sonnie?


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

Hi Steve!

Long time! As far as we are not talking about insane levels, a stereo 8" woofer system can do a good job. My mains have dual 8" each but I am also using dual 18" subs powered by 4 KW (as you know) and I feel they are even in their duties.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

SteveCallas said:


> I'm not so much interested in a response graph, as I'm sure it stays reasonably flat to at least 60hz. I'm worried that a single 8" wouldn't be able to keep up in the 80-250hz range when volume levels get spirited. What is the woofer configuration like on your model of speaker Sonnie?


I guess I am not sure what you mean by "keep up". I have yet to notice any strain or distortion when playing at spirited levels... everything is there. The mid-bass is the best I have heard in my system. I never noticed it with my Bostons like I do with my ML's. 

The one thing I really like about these speakers is when I close my eye I can imagine one or a couple of gigantic speakers 10' tall stretching all across the room... one big huge sound stage (I hope I am describing it correctly).


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

Sonnie, the midbass capabilities on your speaker look much more competent than that of the Vistas. Yours is using a 10" woofer that is crossed down at 280hz, so it should be extremely capable in the midbass range. The Vistas use a single 8" woofer crossed at 450hz, not really confidence-inspiring.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Yeah... I cannot speak for the Vista line. Personally... from what I have researched, the Ascent i's are among the dealer favorites short of the Odysseys, Summits and a couple of the other upper end models. One dealer who knew I had already purchased mine stated that they are his favorite short of the Summits. You may be able to line up a listen with one of the ML owners through the Owners forum.


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## JonFo (Jul 16, 2007)

SteveCallas said:


> Sonnie, the midbass capabilities on your speaker look much more competent than that of the Vistas. Yours is using a 10" woofer that is crossed down at 280hz, so it should be extremely capable in the midbass range. The Vistas use a single 8" woofer crossed at 450hz, not really confidence-inspiring.



Steve, you are correct in your doubts that a single 8" can keep up with the ML panels. In terms of power curve (ability to maintain he same freq. resp profile at varying SPL levels), most hybrids with a single mid-bass or woofer driver are challenged at levels above 90dB SPL.

It took an array of six Adire Extremis 6.8's to really match (and probably exceed if I let it) the SPL power curve of a SL3/Ascent/Vista class panel. See my assessment of this in this thread on a hybrid line array ESL I built as a center channel.

However, most ML hybrids do just fine at 'normal' listening levels. As the sheer clarity (pardon the pun) of the ESL more than makes up for a slight deficiency in mid-bass. Also, correct room treatment can improve things dramatically at the mid-bass as well.


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