# PS Audio Noise harvester Does it Work??



## Danny

Recently saw the boys from PS Audio have put out a noise harvester, do you think that it works. Also I'd be interested to hear from anyone who is (or has) been using this. Here's the link

http://www.psaudio.com/products/noiseharvester.asp


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## Phil M

Mine are on their way - should be here in a couple of days.
A couple of us are going to try them out in different properties and see how they work. I'll feedback the results.


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## Sonnie

I'd be curious to know myself if they work.


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## Phil M

They arrived today and plugged in - flashing like crazy on some circuits and slow flashing on others, so there's something going on.
Already have an idea on how they affect the sound but will post feedback after more prolonged listening tests.

NB
I'm OK with the vote based on pollers trying the Harvesters out, but feel its unfair to vote based on opinion, predjudice etc. It' s unfair on the manufacturer and just an opinion to vote with no experience, and adds no value.


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## laserman

I wait patiently for your review oh great one. :hail:


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## khellandros66

Phil, you now have Zealots following you :rofl: J/K Totally loved those part from Toy Story and Toy Story 2.

Welcome to the forum Laserman.

~Bob


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## Phil M

I've spent the last few days staining my deck and just reassembled my system - I wanted to try the Harvesters with my Richard Grey.
When I first plugged 3 into a group of outlets they all flashed at a similar frequency, the last 2 went into a seperate group of outlets and flashed at a lower frequency. Being a sceptic I thought that maybe PS Audio tunes them in the factory to flash at a pre-determined frequency to fool us into believing we had 'noise' in the supply. I swapped them over and confirmed that they are not pre-set.:rolleyesno: 

I'll need a few days to recover from them strobing at me all day, and give them a fair trial. I also will have a friend come over for the blind trial, to eliminate the 'these cost $400 so they must do something' syndrome.


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## Phil M

*Harvesters - Initial Impression*

I've had my system offline for the last week and a half waiting for a new 3 channel amp to arrive, I noticed that during this time I wasn't completely happy with what I was hearing so wanted to reinstall everything before giving the Harvesters a fair crack of the whip. The key component missing was my Richard Gray RGPC1200, don't know what it does but my system is sweeter to listen to with it in place. And from this reference point it was the right environment to give the Harvesters a workout.

*Equipment used:*
Modwright Sony NS999ES CD/SACD/DVD player
B&W N803 speakers
Musical Fidelity KW500 integrated amp
Richard Gray RGPC1200

*Under test:*
5 PS Audio Harvesters

*Tests disc used:*
Steve Reid - Bamboo Forest 
The Coors - Talk On Corners
Sweetbottom - Live The Reunion
Seal - IV
Alan Hull - Pipedream

I plugged the Harvesters in different locations in my HT room, which has two seperate 20amp circuits, and did see the Harvesters flashing away at different frequencies in different locations at different times of the day. The discs chosen are ones that my local buddy Lou (free plug for his jazzsite http://www.contemporaryjazz.com/) and I use to get a first impression of a piece of equipment. These discs (except for Pipedream, which is one of my old favs) are very revealing and can quickly give an indication of soundstage, male and female vocals, instrument separation and 'musicality'. 
First impression with 1 Harvester plugged in - no significant change, all 5 Harvesters - no significant change. 
By no significant change I'm talking about a 1-3% difference with and without them, which at $400 does not represent for me a good price performance equation. In addition the 1-3% range is in the land of 'psycho acoustics' or 'I thought I heard something'.
The next step is to give them a week in my system to see if the change is subtle, and finding out what changes take place after getting used to them . I will then go over to Lou's place to try them in a different environment, and report back. 

I had planned to wait until the Harvesters had been in my system, and at a second location before posting: but decided to post an interim report as their is a lot of interest. With this in mind the final verdict isn't in yet - so please bear this in mind before drawing any conclusions.
Acid test, will I keep them? The jury is still out:dontknow:


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## lcaillo

These are basically filters to create a load at frequencies other than the line frequency and dissipate The problem that I see with them is that there is a lot of noise in electrical systems that does not effect problems with sound nor pix in most systems. Some systems may have problems that do affect the sound or pix, but most do not. I have done lots of experimenting to try to find what kinds of line noise is actually visible in video systems and found that in most video components, the power supplies eliminate most problems with line noise. Ground loops are another matter. With audio systems, there is more liklihood of a.c. noise creating a problem but it is relatively rare.

Consider how most video components power supplies operate. Most use a switching supply that takes incoming a.c., rectifies it (as does a conventional power supply) to d.c. and filters it with relatively large capacitors(though nothing like the capacity in a typical audio amplifier, maybe 680 uF). At this point it could still have a fair amount of noise on it and more likely significant ripple. That d.c. with noise is then switched on and off at a rate of perhaps 50-125 khz. This switched d.c. looks like a distorted square wave that is input to the primary of a transformer, inducing a current in the secondary. This current is rectified, typically by high speed or barrier diodes and fltered using caps approriate for the load. Typically there are multiple filter caps and multiple supplies on the secondary at different voltages. More regulation is applied on most supplies, folowed by filter caps on those lines.

The bottom line is, in most video components that work this way, it is nearly impossible for low level noise on the original a.c. to survive the several stages of rectification, switching, and filtering. More conventional power supplies typically used in audio components are more likely to allow low level a.c. noise to pass, but also do a pretty good job of filtering it.

Devices like the PS filters are likely doing something. The question is whether it is of value and whether it represents a value to the user. I suspect that in most cases it does not. In some rare cases there may be noise that they might affect. I would be interested in the conditions that might make such devices useful.


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## brucek

> it is nearly impossible for low level noise on the original a.c. to survive the several stages of rectification, switching, and filtering.


Exactly.

Phil, I'm pleased to see you've remained neutral and have an open mind about the efficacy of the Harvester. I'll offer an opinion.

I have to give kudos to PS Audio for their marketing ability with this product. Devices that don't have moving parts need some sort of visual boost to let the user know that it's working. What better than a flashing light and reciting the law of conservation of energy to prove the job's being done.

AC line filtering is a well understood science. There's nothing new in that department. The tried an true method of EMI/RFI noise filtering is to employ a low pass filter made up from a series/parallel ladder of inductors and capacitors that attenuate and bypass high frequencies, so as to restrict them from arriving at your equipment. They do a good job, although most electronics equipment in your system have very high EMI/RFI noise rejection already built in. The power supply transformer, bypass capacitors, filter capacitors, voltage regulators and the chips themselves all provide a high frequency noise rejection that could easily be as much as 100dB from line cord to chip. The assumption that we even require filtering is overstated.

I'm sure the Harvester is a fine parallel filter and works as advertised, although detailed claims are absent. The Harvesters parallel impedance (frequency dependant resistance) will lower for high frequencies and be insignificant at 60Hz just like any other simple parallel two lead filter. The high frequency energy will be diverted to a capacitor and then some electronic arrangement will fire the light until the capacitor is suitably discharged. A typical parallel filter will divert the energy to the neutral line. Both methods are effective, although it's really better to provide a combination of series and parallel filtering such as a power conditioner will possess. Note PS Audio agrees with this conclusion since they recommend a standard series/parallel conditioner also to be used in conjunction with the Harvester.

Most EMI/RFI filters provide insertion loss tables so you can choose the size you want to employ. If I look at the filter I use in my own system it spells out all the necessary specifications to understand what the device does in the circuit. I use a standard CORCOM V-series 30 amp line filter 30VK6. It uses a tried and true impedance ladder shown below with associated specifications on insertion loss.










This tells me a lot. 
I know what this filter is going to do before I use it. 
Would I buy it without the specifications - no. 


Here's the marketing hype from PS Audio on their product.



Code:


Here’s the dirty little secret none of our competitors want you to know.  
ALL power line filters - regardless of design – do not actually eliminate noise from the power line.
Instead, they only shift the noise around from one place to another!

So noise that comes in the hot side of the line may be sent over to the neutral or ground side.  

But it most certainly is NOT removed or reduced.  Even so, there is nearly always SOME benefit.  
Just not all you paid for.

Physics 101

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.  
Unless we choose to ignore it, we only have two choices:
  
It can be rerouted or it can be converted to another form of energy.  
It cannot be destroyed as some marketing materials might suggest.

So let’s assume we definitely want to eliminate the noise, 
not just hide it somewhere where it can still cause trouble.

Seriously, whether we divert the noise to neutral and ground or turn on a light bulb, it matters not.
What's important is that it doesn't arrive at our equipment. I would have rather seen a spec sheet on the Harvester rather than lesson 101 and then we could have decided how well it worked before purchase. 
As I said before, this is a well understood principle - no magic here. 

brucek


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## laserman

Phil, thanks for the feedback on the Harvesters. You were honest and candid about what they did in your system without bashing the possibility they may work in someone else’s system.

Hey Bob, I ain’t no Zealot, just one of Phil’s peeps. :hail: to Phil :hail: to Phil :hail: to Phil...LOL

Leonard and BruceK, thank you for the electricity / physics 101 stuff…my head is still spinning over what you two wrote.

What I want to know is how a device can work when your electronic gear isn’t plugged into it. Yes, I have had adverse experiences (added noise into the line) with a light dimmer that was wired in the same circuit breaker feed as my audio gear. However, I just can’t get my brain to wrap around the concept of these devices having a favorable impact with something on the same line or in the same house instead of my gear being plugged directly into it (like a conditioner or suppressor). I remain cautiously interested and await Phil’s trial at his friend’s house.

Speaking of the “Great One's” friend…Phil, would you care to share with us the jazz cds that he has recommended to you to use for testing out your equipment?

Thanks,
Laserman


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## Phil M

Laserman,

Jazz CD's - Diana Krall, The Girl In The Other Room is one of the favorites for vocals and bass - I'm just a simple Floyd, Zeppelin, Yes guy! I'll get a list from Lou, he's a lurker here but can give me a list to post for promoting his site. 

Give me another week with the Harvesters, Lou is more critical than I am and calibrates me if I think I'm hearing something - normally its a slap on the head:huh: At least PS Audio let you try them in order to see if they work in your environment, so they're worth a try.

I'm shocked that I missed my Richard Gray, this was going to go on Audiogon to generate some $ for new toys, its definetly a keeper. I've had it for 3 years and didn't think it did much except take up rack space, it takes out some of the harshness. 

Regarding the electronics 101 lesson we received - its confused me also:scratch: 

Finally, you can cut out the Great One stuff, Your Majesty works just fine :hail:


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## lcaillo

laserman said:


> What I want to know is how a device can work when your electronic gear isn’t plugged into it. Yes, I have had adverse experiences (added noise into the line) with a light dimmer that was wired in the same circuit breaker feed as my audio gear. However, I just can’t get my brain to wrap around the concept of these devices having a favorable impact with something on the same line or in the same house instead of my gear being plugged directly into it (like a conditioner or suppressor).


The device is parallel in the circuit just like the MOVs in a surge suppressor. Like those MOVs, they only allow current to flow through the device when certain conditions are met. In the case of a filter, the conditions are that energy exixts at the right frequency, which is not the frequency of the a.c. power. In the case of MOVs in a surge suppressor, it depends on the voltage. Your electrical system in your home has lots of things in parallel, like that dimmer. 

A good analogy would be room damping devices that absorb certain frequencies. They are not part of your speaker system but still have an effect.

The question, IMO, is not whether it is possible for a parallel device to affect the circuit, but whether the effect is meaningful.


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## Phil M

laserman said:


> Speaking of the “Great One's” friend…Phil, would you care to share with us the jazz cds that he has recommended to you to use for testing out your equipment?
> 
> Thanks,
> Laserman


In addition to the cd's I mentioned Lou suggests these:

Spies - self-titled
Patricia Barber - live , a fortnight in france
Diana Krall - the look of love
Shapes - the big picture 
Flim & the BBs - big notes
Bob Mintzer - art of the big band

These cds are recorded/mastered very well and the music writing and arrangements are fantastic.

As jazz has got so many sub genre's you might want to check out the website I mentioned in a previous post:
contemporaryjazz.com
The guy's there can help out with a more detailed list.


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## Sonnie

Flim & the BB's - Big Notes... awesome! One of my favorites!

So is the verdict still out on the Harvester Phil?


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## Phil M

Well Sonnie I want to give them a fair trial, so I'll just keep them installed for another week and then remove them and see if I miss them or not. Also they're going for a field trip to Big Lou's, that will give another data point. 
So the jury is still out:dontknow:


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## laserman

Phil, thanks for the jazz recommendations (I guess it is Lou I should be thanking). I sampled most of them and ordered them from half.com and amazon. Great music for sure and I can't wait to hear how they sound in my system. :T 

Thanks again and I too am waiting on a follow-up on the harvesters after your road trip to Lou's. :drive:


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## Phil M

laserman said:


> Thanks again and I too am waiting on a follow-up on the harvesters after your road trip to Lou's. :drive:


He's enticed me with food tomorrow lunch time, he knows my weakness. So I can feel a review session coming on. 
Based on the thumbs up on the Film & The BB's I too listened to the Amazon demo's and bought it from half.com (we probably bought the same copy:laugh: )


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## brucek

> So I can feel a review session coming on


I'll propose a test for the Harvester.

Remove his line conditioner and test the Harvester by pressing your ear on a tweeter and check the noise floor with and without it.

Then plug in his conditioner and perform the same test.

I suggest you'll notice a small difference on test #1 and no difference on test #2.

brucek


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## Phil M

Laserman, you inspired me to use a photograph of my security system as my Avatar, thanks


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## Phil M

Just got back from Big Lou's.
My main agenda was to try out my new Butler 3 channel amp, and eat  

He had other ideas and wanted to try out the Harvesters first, to get this over with asap I sat in his hot listening position and started to pick up magazines and look as bored as possible:snoring: 
He ignored my body language. After Big L running around the house putting Harvester in and out in and out.....we couldn't believe it. The harvesters made a significant positive improvement in opening up the soundstage and smoothening up the mids and highs, and this was on two seperate speaker systems in two different rooms using a Rega Apollo CD player and a newly refurbished Threshold amp.
Big L used to be in the high end retail business, and is more cynical than I am - We were both shocked about the improvement they made..
He's going to keep them and play with them some more, but we both thought that for the $399 for 4 the value equation was well worthwhile. 

So whats the conclusion?
They work for him but not for me, we both have good two channel systems and are calibrated in knowing what sounds ok and what sounds bad.
Its not the conclusion forum members wanted, not black and white. My recommendation is that if you're critical regarding 2 channel enjoyment then you need to try them with the 30 day return guarantee.

NB
Got well fed :T 
The Butler needs more hours but thoroughly recommendable as a VFM HT amp - more on this later.
Big L is writing up his personal review and I'll elaborate with more details on the specific improvements.


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## Phil M

Well Big L has been busy, and already sent me his feedback for posting:


*Skeptics beware!*
First things first, I am one of THE biggest skeptics when it comes to those “enhancement” accessory products we all get bombarded with (No, I'm not talking about those XXX ones either). However, being the eternal merry-go-round audio upgrade person that I am, I find myself always wanting to try some of them. Rarely do I purchase any of them because they either don’t do what they were advertised to do or their cost doesn’t justify the small incremental change I might have heard. In this instant case, I figured what the **** because I didn’t have to do anything. My friend wanted to try them too, so he ordered a set of five so we could both try them in two different settings with different systems.

The PS Audio Harvesters arrived last week and he plugged them into his system. After several hours of listening he unplugged them to listen again. And,…nadda…no noticeable changes. He keep doing a before and after and stated he may have noticed a slight change but chalked it up to psycho-acoustics because he couldn’t tell when they were plugged in verses when they weren’t.

Fast forward to today. My friend arrives to give me an opportunity to listen to the Harvesters. He also had a Butler amp in tow as well. I told him let’s listen to the Harvesters first to get that ‘little’ trial out of the way and then we can move to the amp. We both were making fun of the Harvesters as I was plugging them in one in at a time around the first flour of my house (no disrespect towards you Paul McG). Something along the lines, “oooh look at the light blink” and “can you hear it now?” I sat down to listen critically and my friend picked up some magazines to read and be indifferent and dismissive towards this trial since they didn’t work over at his place. 

IMHO my system is a well-balanced one with good top to bottom tonal quality and a decent soundstage (wide and deep). Not the final word by any stretch of the imagination, but a system I listen to at relatively high volumes without getting fatigued. To my surprise, I noticed a difference right away since I was playing a cd I was very familiar with and had played just before he arrived. My friend had also used the same disc as part of several he had used and was very familiar with the sound of my system.

Needless to say, he put the magazine down and started to critically listen. I switched between having them plugged in and unplugged and each time the change was noticeable and significant.

The Harvesters seemed to fill the sound stage in more by separating the instruments and making the sound stage have more depth and 3D like. I always felt my speakers disappeared in the room but the Harvesters showed they could really disappear. One way to test this observation was I moved out of the center sweet spot and moved laterally to be directly in front of one channel. I listened with and without the Harvesters and could hear the sound stage open up wider and go deeper. It was like a plume of sound moved from the farthest channel towards the middle enlarging the sweet spot.

I don’t know how these things work and perform their task (even after reading PS Audio’s propaganda), but they do work in my system. My friend left them for me to live with for a week and determine if there is a cost benefit factor to warrant keeping them. I am digging out all my familiar music to give them a workout. The final test is to use my secret weapon and number one critic -- my bride. I’ll let her listen to they system with the Harvesters plugged in and unplugged. She is younger and has different peaks and valleys in her listening range than I do. I trust her opinion because she isn’t afflicted with this audio sickness, or is it a hobby.

This certainly proves YMMV because my friend felt they were useless in his system, but in my system they did make a positive change. Go figure!

PS I hope the blue lights don't have an adverse affect on my eyesight due to wanting to stare at them for prolonged periods. Hahahahahaha!


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## Sonnie

Hmmm... so it worked in one place and not the other. Strange ain't it?


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## Phil M

Looking at some of the user quotes on the PS Audio website I see similar comments to what we found yesterday. The two main variables may be system and quality of AC supply, this is the only explanation I can come up with as a non-Tekkie - But work they do, and very well in some systems.


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## laserman

Sorry for the delay getting back to this thread but stuff happens.

‘Your Majesty’ Phil, I like the avatar. One thing you Brits aren’t short on and that’s a quick sense of humor. Bravo! OBTW, from the picture, it looks a nice pad you live in, but a might damp and drafty during the winter months.  

Waiting for my cds to arrive so I can get familiar with them before using them when I change something in my system.

Phil, the Harvesters took a 180 turn on your impression and you were man enough to step up to the plate and say so. Your's and big L’s review were very interesting and does make one wonder how the **** are these little gadgets doing it. After all, they are not directly in the current flow to the equipment but scattered though out the house. 

If I were a gambling man, I would bet they pass the WAF test at Lou's and he is going to keep them in his system. I am going to save up some mad money and take the plunge on testing them some day in the near future. This thread and a few others about them has wetted my appetite and I want to make sure I have the money to keep them if they work out. I hope PS Audio continues the buy 4 get one free promo going for a while longer.

Well, I have to pack for a trip so it will be a while before I come back this way. If possible I will lurk while I’m gone.

Thanks again for the cd recommendations and this very interesting topic.

Laserman

PS Is someone else going to test them? Brucek, Danny, Leonard, Bob, Sonnie? Hey Sonnie why don’t you try them and see if they’re smoke and mirrors, or possibly the real deal in your system. I mean look at what happened with the Phil verses Lou trial. Come on southern hillbilly boy, put the beer down and order a set of five. I sense you want to do but feel you are hesitating because you’re afraid of all the jeers you’ll get from your good ‘ol rockin’ chair buddies. You could be the tiebreaker on these little tweaks. Just do it!


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## Sonnie

lol... ohhhh man... I can't afford them. I'm man enough to step up to the plate and admit it. heehee My status as a bonafide country ******* hillbilly won't allow it. I'm trying to figure out where to get gas money from since my corn has dried up due to the drought. Cows ain't got no grass to eat, our baby goose got ate by a hawk and the goats are gettin' cantankerous. :dontknow:


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## laserman

Good Morning Sonnie, 

I’m packed and ready to hit the road but had enough time to revisit the site and see your response.

[My apologies to everyone if this post takes an aside. Danny and Phil, I’m still very interested in the Harvesters and hope more people try them and report back here.]

First off, I visited your “car stereo” and “cedar creek cinema” personal links (the websites are set up very nice), so I know you can afford to try the Harvesters. You have used up some major disposable income in the car and HT projects. ****, if you don’t like them you can just simply ship them back. In my case, I have to get the disposable income to do it. I’m not a big fan of running up credit card payments.

Second, you call yourself a “bona fide country ******* hillbilly” but no self respecting ******* hillbilly I know would be drivin’ a *H Y U N D A I... S O N A T A...L X. * I’m not trying to be disrespectful and I hear it’s a great bang for the buck kind of car, but geez Sonnie you have an image to uphold. Where the **** is the pickup truck with the cracked windshield, bent antenna and gun rack mounded in the rear window?  

Third, nice job on the car stereo and I beat Pink Floyd sounds fantastic cranked up in there. 

Fourth, the HT room is set up pretty nice too. I’m more a two-channel guy, but my nephew and good friend are both into HT in a big way. Okay, hillbilly boy, what’s up with the Violet colored walls? From my brief exposure to HT and Museums (my nephew works in one), it has been widely accepted the best color to use is a shade of gray to make the picture POP for viewing. Regardless, ff you are a bona fide card carrying country ******* hillbilly boy, how can you invite the locals over to view without getting ridiculed due to the color? :laugh: :rofl: :laugh: :rofl: :laugh: :rofl: 

Fifth, you apparently are a believer in tuning or treating your listening environments (car has Dynamat and HT has some home made defusers), so I know you believe in tweaks. From your old HT pictures, it even looks like you believe it aftermarket IC’s and Power Cords. I bet you don’t to the boys about those things while you are sitting one the front porch drinking bears and that bootleg jug whiskey. :nono: 

Finally, in all seriousness, Sonnie you need to step outside the box (your comfort zone if you will) and try these suckers. Regardless of what Big Lou’s WAF is, I’ now even more determined than ever to try these suckers. I guess if I drive less, eat more peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, and buy less cds (not) I can do it sooner verses later. 

Off to visit the In-laws and have a great vacation.


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## Sonnie

heehee.... you said it... I spent all my money on HT and car audio. 

Those Harvesters cost $300-400 huh? I just spent that on putting a stereo and speakers in Chelsea's 99 Ford Explorer I purchased her. Oh... yeah, the truck, and believe me, it's a real hillbilly truck... it's here. The Sonata is a company car... the company pays for it. 

I do believe in tweaking and tuning to an extent. Those panels didn't seem to make that much difference though. I've mentioned elsewhere that I may re-paint that room... but those pics are terrible pics. The walls are actually dark burgundy. But I did mention painting the front part around the screen some shade of gray.

I'm thinkin' the Harvesters are more for the two channel enthusiast. Wouldn't you guys agree? More for the critical listener? I'm nearly all movies and a few DVD concerts.


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## Phil M

More feedback from Big Lou, he's been in contact with the Senior Tekkie at PS Audio today, the response:

How long does the light flash? - LED, good for a billion flashes/3 year guarantee.
Isn't their a similar product on the market? - yes, but the Harvester operates in a frequency range that has greater impact on audio performance.
Why does it work with Big Lou, and not with me - could be cleaner electricity, or more than likely my new super sophisticated MF amp has in built noise suppression which does a similar job to the Harvester. One of Big L's Harvesters is glowing constantly!

I have to call the MF amp designer at MF tomorrow for another issue, so will ask the question on in built noise cleaning.
Again PS Audio are not promising results, but do offer a 30 day trial - I see on another forum that the Harvester thread is pushing over 7 pages, starting with skeptisism and the usual snake oil comparisons, and now that PS Audio have jumped in to answer questions openly the skeptics are coming round.

Lcaillo was looking for a a device that improved video performance, I see all the dialogue on audio performance. I don't see claims in video performance, so I'm not sure if this is an audio only device:scratch: 
Brucek, you gave us the theorey - why not give them a shot in your system, both on audio and video? 

On a final note the Harvesters have passed the WAF at Big Lou's - he has the 'all systems go' but needs a few more days to find a problem with them:yawn:


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## brucek

> Brucek, you gave us the theorey - why not give them a shot in your system, both on audio and video?


I'm sure it's a fine parallel conditioner (if not a bit overpriced), but I wouldn't go near any device (as I mentioned) that the manufacturer was hesitant to publish its specifications. Why would they not provide a simple specifications sheet so anyone can make an informed decision. We know they have the capability. What are they hiding? 

I've worked in engineering all my life, and have purchased thousands of electronic parts. I showed in my previous post the simple spec sheet that a typical filter provides. Why can't PS audio provide the same. Without it, I don't know what I'm buying.... Perhaps it's a night-light - how would I know. I guarantee it's not magic..

brucek


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## Phil M

I talked to John Samson, the designer of the KW500 amp, this morning on how best to integrate my REL subwoofer - and took the opportunity to discuss the Harvesters.
The KW500 has a seperate psu (bigger and heavier than most amps), that supplies the integrated preamp and 2 power amps. They believe that clean power is a critical element in squeezing out the optimum performance of an amp, and as such they have circuitry inside the psu that filters out high frequency line noise. He believes that the Harvesters are doing the same, and this is why I do not hear any benefit from them. QED


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## brucek

> they have circuitry inside the psu that filters out high frequency line noise


I can pretty much guarantee that every amplifier on the market today have a filter that removes high frequency line noise. 

The inexpensive and very effective way of adding adding both series and parrallel filtering is with the compact IEC inlet filters that are integral with the connector itself. Cost ~$15
http://www.cor.com/Series/IEC/ED/



brucek


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## Phil M

The Harvester thread on another forum is now at a staggering 14 pages, and has drifted into those that have tried them and they worked, and those that quote science, Lord Kelvin, specs and drifted into personal comments against Paul McGowan's (CEO PS Audio) recent marriage. Not sure what his marriage has to do with Harvesters working, but when you run out of other argunments to attack them with then you grasp at anything. It looks like the world is split between the factual based ' give me specs' skeptics and the open minded 'lets give it try' crowd.

*The original question asked by Danny - Does the harvester work??*
Can only truly be answered by trying it, forget the specs and theory only your ears can tell. In two relatively good 2 channel systems we found two conflicting performances. My amp apparently is already filtered and they didn't work, and it improved Big Lou's soundstage to such an extent that he's on the brink of buying them. Big Lou's amp is no cheapo Far Eastern toy, his Threshold was designed by Nelson Pass (regarded as one of the worlds legendary and influential amp designers) and to my ears is exceptional.
So my answer is maybe - try them for yourself, it costs nothing (and if you don't find they work it'll cost about $10 to send them back to PS Audio for the 30 day trial).

The performance improvement I heard at Big L's is the improvement that we audiphools crave for, and to get this with such a simple device at low $ risk, is significant. 

I have no personal interest in the Harvesters working or not, and the first time I've used a PS Audio product or been in contact with them. Over the last few weeks I've seen the way they've handled themselves, questions on their product and been very impressed. Again another company in which the CEO is happy to jump in and talk directly to his customers.


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## lcaillo

Phil M said:


> I talked to John Samson, the designer of the KW500 amp, this morning on how best to integrate my REL subwoofer - and took the opportunity to discuss the Harvesters.
> The KW500 has a seperate psu (bigger and heavier than most amps), that supplies the integrated preamp and 2 power amps. They believe that clean power is a critical element in squeezing out the optimum performance of an amp, and as such they have circuitry inside the psu that filters out high frequency line noise. He believes that the Harvesters are doing the same, and this is why I do not hear any benefit from them. QED


Someone's belief does not provide anything that could lead to QED. Only a proof based on logic and accepted axioms can be demonstated as such. Pedantic it may be, but we should be clear regarding what is fact and what is conjecture and assumption.

While I agree completely that there is little likelihood that they will have an audible benefit in a most systems, this is just a belief, as is that of Mr. Samson.

We cannot assume the effectiveness of any filter in any amp, nor the effectiveness of the Harvesters. There are too many variables in the noise that might be present, the paths that it may take into a system, and in the design of the components. I would love for someone who hears a difference to try to identify the nature of the change. Should be able to do so with a scope on the ac line and on the output of the various power supplies.


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## lcaillo

brucek said:


> I can pretty much guarantee that every amplifier on the market today have a filter that removes high frequency line noise.
> The inexpensive and very effective way of adding adding both series and parrallel filtering is with the compact IEC inlet filters that are integral with the connector itself. Cost ~$15
> http://www.cor.com/Series/IEC/ED/
> brucek


The filtering for relatively low frequencies that might be most likely to affect audio systems seems rather minimal. Much better in the higher ranges, but the bandpass of most amps likely makes this less relevant.


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## Phil M

One of the tweaks that Stereophile reviewers use, love and recommend are myrtle wood blocks under a CD player:

http://www.ayre.com/accessories.cfm?accessID=7

This is going to drive you left brain guys nuts, how are you going to stick an oscilloscope into these and measure what they do :huh: :scratch: 
Haven't tried them yet but maybe will just for fun - I'll open up a right brain only thread so we can just relax and enjoy them.

Big Lou is going through the same dilema now, his right brain loves the Harvesters but his left brain wants to know how they work :dizzy: Will he buy them :yes: , will he not :rolleyesno: ? D day is tomorrow.


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## Ayreonaut

Phil M said:


> ...myrtle wood blocks under a CD player...


 I'd like to see an ABX test performed to differentiate myrtle wood blocks from pine. :laugh:


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## Phil M

Ayreonaut said:


> I'd like to see an ABX test performed to differentiate myrtle wood blocks from pine. :laugh:


I think your way off base Daniel, with this forum having a strong DIY following we should be looking at MDF - has a more homgeneous structure and knot (excuse the pun) natural wood.

Spoke to Big Lou this morning, he's lost 20lbs over the last few days running around the house doing the Harvesters oke koke - in out, in out, shake it all about. He might need an extension on the trial - to give him more time to find a problem. Even though they have the WAF, I'll have to steer clear of Mrs Big Lou as I'm the local pusher feeding his HiFi junkie habit.


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## laserman

*I’m back! *Wow, things have taken off a bit while I was away!

*To Sonnie, *
Thanks for having a great sense of humor and coming back with your responses. I was going to jab you about the Lazy Boy chairs too. You know, keepin’ within your hillbilly ******* handle, I was going to ask you why you didn’t go with folding lawn chairs or at best discarded chairs with duck tape covering all the worn spots versus NEW Lazy Boy chairs. LOL:rofl: 

Seriously Sonnie, you strike me as leaning toward perfectionism or “Type A” personality. A person who likes to peel the onion back to find out what’s going on with something deep inside? If so, then you should be very inquisitive about going to the nth degree to see if something is the real deal or just quackery, voodoo, snake oil. 

Case in point, you stated, “I do believe in tweaking and tuning to an extent.”

Yes, and it shows in the way you did the car stereo installation, the wire organization pictured in the old HT setup and your recent installation of a dedicated HT room. You certainly went for some of the best. And, I beat you will continue to look for enhancements in projectors, head units, amps, etc. Why do I say this? Because of the fact that you made the transition from a regular general-purpose room couch potato to dedicated HT room enthusiast with involvement in a website.

You said, “Those panels didn't seem to make that much difference though.” 

I was surmising as much with them up against the walls. For those panel to be effective as a bass trap, you would need an inch or two of air space behind them and maybe twice as thick. Also, if you want them as diffusers then the surface has to be uneven. I am sure there are more expert people than I am lurking around here to point out how to effectively treat a room. Foremost, you know if something works or it doesn’t regardless of whether it’s in a 2-Channel or HT application. A site to visit is Audio Asylum, which you may already be familiar with, a great DIY site.

You stated, “I've mentioned elsewhere that I may re-paint that room...But I did mention painting the front part around the screen some shade of gray.” This is another affirmation of your perfectionist tendencies. OBTW, I too have this tendency and gravitate towards others who possess this trait.

Sonnie says “I'm thinkin' the Harvesters are more for the two channel enthusiast. Wouldn't you guys agree? More for the critical listener? I'm nearly all movies and a few DVD concerts.” Now you are belittling yourself. If it makes a difference in 2-Channel, then it assuredly is going to make a difference in HT and DVD channels. I’m not sure they will work for me, but I remain receptive to giving them a whirl.

I have chased down many WEIRD accessories over the years. Many have been total busts, but every now and then there is a real jewel discovered in the hunt. Sometimes these jewels are expensive and other times they are ridiculously cheap. The important things I keep telling myself are never taking this hobby serious, stay open-minded, don’t go by emotions and keep mining for those hidden treasures out there.

PS I may have to look at the funds already stashed away under my mattress (oops, there’s another hillbilly humor dig happening.  ) and see if I have enough to order them now. Dang, I will have to push my HT install out a couple more weeks.

*TO EVERYONE ELSE,*

I was drawn to this site after Googling for info on the Harvesters. I found discussions on several other sites too. I have always found that what sounds "best" to someone is strictly a matter of personal opinion. As such, what you, I or anyone else prefers is up to the individual. IOW, YMMV! I like the candor and honesty of people like Phil. He appears like a stand-up straight shooting type of guy. Oh yeah, that’s right, he’s a Brit! 

I too called PS Audio while away and they shed a little more light on their passive product. _“The Harvester is focusing on an area between *8kHz and 15kHz *- this is where there's a huge amount of noise energy. Other manufactures are filtering noise @ 50K and above. Inside the harvester is a coupling transformer, capacitors, a bunch of semiconductors, including a TVS (Transient Voltage Suppressor) and an LED." _ They were not aggressively trying to sell me on them but stated if I were to try them and they did nothing then I could ship them back for a full refund. 

In my vetting process I discovered this passive noise filter thing:

Harmonix Enacom AC Filter (by Marshall Nack)
_“The Enacom AC Filter ($85) is a passive device that plugs into any handy outlet and works in parallel to your main power. Its simple circuit consists of a high-quality capacitor inside a solid copper barrel with a short umbilical ending in a two-prong AC cord. The Enacom AC has been around a long time…

…When you put in a Harmonix Enacom AC Filter, especially if it's your first Harmonix product, you will notice a sudden infusion of body and fullness. Soon after you'll perceive the treble is less prominent and aggressive and that the low bass is subtly reduced, but more articulate. Treble noise, grain and other artifact move out—purity and body move in…For a stronger effect I plugged it into one of the power conditioner's outlets. 

Take note that the circuit is not patented—some manufacturers recommend its use and others build it in. When I brought one over a dealer's house, it did its nice little thing, besting a parallel conditioner from another product line. A month later I came back and did the same experiment, but this time the Enacom made no difference—apparently, the conditioner manufacturer had incorporated the its circuit into his product. So, depending on what else you have, the Enacom AC Filter may be redundant, but you won't know ‘til you give it a try. The Enacom AC Filter is my choice for Budget Tweak of the Year 2004 @ Positive-Feedback Online.”_
Others I found out there:

EAU-1 parallel AC line conditioner - http://www.positive-feedback.com/ambackissues/EAU1.htm

Audioprism Quietline AC Filters - discussed @ PS Audio’s website.

To the best of my recollection, I never ran across the EAU-1’s or the Harmonix Enacom Filters. PS Audio doesn’t compare theirs to either of these. Hmmmmmm! Interesting data point to say the least?

OBTW, there are several active devices that go between the AC outlet and your equipment too.

My thoughts were that Big Lou had an older (+10 years) prized/keeper Amp or Preamp (which Phil states is a Threshold) and Phil had newer stuff (now proven to be MF). In my case, I have a 10+ year-old amp (which I plan to keep for a long time). So, the Harvesters may very well work in my system.

Just like Big Lou and many of you, I still find it hard to convince myself to pony up the $$$ for something that I don't understand at least some fundamentals about their workings (like bruceK). There are some areas of audio that cannot be explained by measurement or our current knowledge but we can hear a difference, good or bad. As to whether your evaluation of its audible effectiveness in your own system becomes a critical one or a joke depends upon your desires to really want to know. People like Phil and Lou were curious enough to try them and report back here with their mixed outcomes. Bravo! 

The Harvesters aren't cheap, and apparently you need five of them to have maximum noise filtration in most home environments. I am reluctantly skeptical that I will discern any difference, but until I plug them in at my house with my system I’ll never know if they work or don’t work. 

I truly wish I was like some of you who are grateful you’re unable (or unwilling) to descern the differences and nuances associated with high-end equipment (with or without charts and specifications). Most of the time I think it's there but never let it interfere with my listening. However, the one thing I am sure of is that these items create passionate responses by nay-sayers who have never tried them, or had the curiosity, or dare I say the cogliones, to try them. 

I’m mostly a lurker, so I will continue in that mode. However, if I do try the Harvesters, I will report back to this thread. 

PPS It may not appeal to everyone, but I feel it’s a requisite audition, especially since I don't already have a power line conditioner. Okay, I will try them…soon!


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## Phil M

brucek said:


> I'll propose a test for the Harvester.
> 
> Remove his line conditioner and test the Harvester by pressing your ear on a tweeter and check the noise floor with and without it.
> 
> Then plug in his conditioner and perform the same test.
> 
> I suggest you'll notice a small difference on test #1 and no difference on test #2.
> 
> brucek


I couldn't remove my line conditioner without too much aggravation, but did turn up the volume with and without the Harvester and no change - it's reasonably quiet anyway. As they didn't work in my system I'll as Big L to try the test in his system.


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## laserman

*Interesting turn of events...*

I was having my usual morning coffee and a chat with my spouse today and the topic of Noise Harvesters some how came up. Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I wonder which one of us raised the issue? 

Anyway, I stated how being a true seeker of audio nirvana (whether in 2Ch or HT applications) appears to be a lifetime experience. I then said when it comes to these accessory items I felt not only curious but stupid. She quickly chided me for being too tough on myself and said I wasn't stupid but rather ignorant. I thanked her and said her word was a more polite description. Final outcome, is she said to go for it and I have placed my order for a 5-pack.  :devil: Works every time. I will report back here after living with them for a while.

PS This website also caused me to look into and put into play a full house surge protection unit.


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## Phil M

laserman said:


> *Interesting turn of events...*
> 
> I was having my usual morning coffee and a chat with my spouse today and the topic of Noise Harvesters some how came up. Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I wonder which one of us raised the issue?
> 
> Anyway, I stated how being a true seeker of audio nirvana (whether in 2Ch or HT applications) appears to be a lifetime experience. I then said when it comes to these accessory items I felt not only curious but stupid. She quickly chided me for being too tough on myself and said I wasn't stupid but rather ignorant. I thanked her and said her word was a more polite description. Final outcome, is she said to go for it and I have placed my order for a 5-pack.  :devil: Works every time. I will report back here after living with them for a while.
> 
> PS This website also caused me to look into and put into play a full house surge protection unit.


Good to have you back from your Hols Laserman, I bet Sonnie really missed your Southern humor:laugh: 
Let us know how the Harvesters work.
NB
Big Lou has now lost another 10lb trying to find a problem with the Harvesters, by the time he finishes he'll be promoting them on HSN as a slimmimg aid.:rofl:


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## Phil M

The verdict is in - Big Lou has finally made a decision on the Harvesters, and the answer is...........


*Spoiler* 



He needs another 30 days to think about it:snoring: They're too good to be true


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## Sonnie

Yeah... laserman has worked me over good on eliminating all my excuses to try these things. lol


What's the ole saying Phil... "If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is"???


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## Phil M

Well the old Harvester debate has slowed down - needs livening up a little.
Big Lou has gone ahead and bought them, mine go back.

So to answer the original question, yes they can work in some systems, but you need to give them a try first. The 30 day money back trial period is available, for the perfectionists amomgst us its worth a shot. If I had the improvement that Big Lou had, the $399 is a bargain and I would have had them immediately.


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## laserman

*PS Audio Noise harvester Do Work!*

I received my shipment of PS Audio Noise Harvesters this past Friday and they made a significant difference in the overall sound with their first installation. What my spouse (non-audiophile) and I primarily heard was a change in the sound stage, it got wider and deeper, and with that an apparent larger separation between instruments. The spacial characteristics of the music, if you will, changed noticeably better.

We each tried determining if it was just a random occurrence or a real change. After several blind before and after changes, we could tell 100% of the time when the NH’s were in and when they were not. 

Okay, they work but I still don’t get how they work. I will live with them for the next couple of weeks to see if listener fatigue occurs. If not, they are going to stay plugged in. Yes, $400 is a lot of money but I have spent more on other accessories, which made no difference. With the 30-day money back guarantee, I figured the most it would cost if I didn’t notice a difference is $7.00. Besides, my spouse said she wants them to stay if they don’t cause any adverse impact on the sound. Woooooow! This is one of the few times she has voiced such a strong endorsement for an accessory change. (Someone pinch me I must be dreaming.):rubeyes: 

As part of my ongoing vetting process, I talked to an engineer who used to work for PS Audio back in the late 80's to early 90's (I think). He shed more light on why the NH's are affecting some systems and not others. He mentioned the *CE Mark/Certification*. For those of you like me, the CE designation started several years ago when the EU was forming and ISO9000 certification was being implemented. Bottom line, the CE designed equipment, which was mentioned by another poster, is to protect certain sensitive equipment from all the nastiness happening in electrical systems through out Europe and the rest of the World. He mentioned it as a "choke" of sorts, which is on the internal end of the power cord or IEC of a CE certified piece of equipment. This choke's function is to guard against EM (electromagnetic) interference from coming in or migrating out of electronic equipment. Also, it is to act to prevent interferences by or with communications devices, such as radio, telephones, data links and TVs.

He gave me technical data points on what the NH is possibly doing. The NH tends to make the upper and lower parts of the 60Hz sine wave more symmetrical, thus reducing distortion and any DC component of the power signal. He has no first hand knowledge or experience with the NH and is thereby speculating on how it can affect a given range of audible frequency. This is consistent with PS Audio claims on tuning it for the 8K - 15K range. This is way over my head technically but makes sense from a practical standpoint because I can hear a difference.

This Engineer went on to say that it’s possible for NH's to work on all non-CE equipment very well. He stated it may or may not work on EC designated equipment depending on how elaborate the manufacturer made the "choke." Many purist/discerning listeners out there feel the "choke" has a detrimental and negative affect on music if not done properly. If you have good dedicated AC lines, and you are lucky enough to live in a benign area with little AC hash and no DC, and your components have well designed power supplies, you probably don't need a power conditioner, regenerator or NH’s for that matter. Phil, you are a lucky dog. It now makes my head spin just trying to understand everything going on when a light bulb gets turned on by a power switch. :dontknow: LOL

For all you Sonnie’s out there who are reading this, people who think they are not critical listeners, I present you with a little ditty about the Noise Harvesters. My spouse is very patient with my audiophile addiction/sickness and has a vast reservoir of tolerance. So when she needed help with entertaining her invited friends between courses during a dinner party this weekend, I thought – ‘hmmmmmmmmmm…why not use these unsuspecting non-audiophile souls as laboratory guinea pigs.’ Bingo! My wife gave me the go-ahead but cautioned me to back off if it became apparent they would rather watch grass grow than critically listen to speakers. I didn’t tell them what I was doing other than I was making a slight change in equipment. Well, I performed the Phil/Big Lou hooky poky and wah-lah they noticed the difference first time. It was a lot of fun to do and they were shocked when I told them it wasn’t a traditional piece of equipment but rather the NH. The rest of the evening was spent discussing these as well as other tweaks. Another item mentioned was the recent red-hot thread about the Best Buy Insignia speakers. I even convinced one couple to purchase them and do some minor mods.

The NH are most likely are going to stay in the system. :T If this changes, I will come back here and post.

I’m curious to see if these work or don’t work for others who put them to the test. With the money back guarantee and low return shipping cost, you don’t have a lot to lose other than time toying around with them

Associated equipment: Bryston BP25MC, Aragon 8008BB (moded), Rega Jupiter, Magnepan and Vandersteen speakers & subs, along with an assortment of ZU and MIT cables.


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## Sonnie

Cool beans... while I wish you had cleaner power and didn't have to spend the money on them... I'm sure glad they work for you.

Now... having a group of my wife's friends around for critical listening...:raped:


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## laserman

Sonnie, I thought I did have clean power. I would have bet my favorite pet rock on it. It just goes to show, you sit and listen and all is well, until you test what you have from time to time. Look at how much electronics have being going through your revolving door.

In the mean time I think I will lodge a complaint to my local Electric Utility. Like they care... :sarcastic: :coocoo: 

My wife's friends were cool about the who audition. I think they were of the mind that a portable boom box and my system probably sounded the same before they encounted this little exercise. They were like putty in my hands and I molded them very nicely, thank you. Who knows, there could be a future audiophile/HT addict amongst them who will cross over to the dark side. A future buyer on the used market. :rofl:


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## Phil M

Well Laserman it looks like both you and Big Lou have scored a hit with the NH's :yourock: :fireworks1: 
You two should hook up some time and check out if 10 NH's work even better :highfive: 
I've given up with Brucek, unless we can get some numbers for him :meter: :reading:  
As far as Sonnie's concerned then I've hit a brick wall also :spend: :dollarsign:


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## Sonnie

Between Brian and my IB project I'm stretched thin.

I really feel like :surrender:


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## Phil M

Danny said:


> Recently saw the boys from PS Audio have put out a noise harvester, do you think that it works. Also I'd be interested to hear from anyone who is (or has) been using this. Here's the link
> 
> http://www.psaudio.com/products/noiseharvester.asp


Danny - did we answer your question?


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## Danny

Yeah Mate
Certainly seems like it does a good job on some systems. You Probably can't go wrong with the 30 day money back guarantee, if you don't like it send it back all you have lost is the P&H costs


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## California Brit

This is an old line of enquiry but since PS Audio have restarted making these Harvesters again, I thought I'd add my experiences. I have a high-end 2 channel stereo system with very low key, run-of-the-mill visual gear. I have several pieces of PS Audio gear and have respect for their products and opinions and so I bought a set of 5 Harvesters and placed individual units around the system, mainly at the front end, where I surmised they'd have an impact. The result was very disappointing, no noticeable change in sound quality. 
Then I read one of the daily blogs from the CEO of PS Audio which suggested that power amps would especially benefit from the Harvester. I placed 2 each on the power lines to my power amps and that changed everything! The midrange instantly cleaned up, with improved definition and with the improvement in the most ear sensitive area, so the rest of the spectrum balanced in a way I'd not heard before. I now have 3 Harvesters on each of the power feeds to my amps and several others in the system - and I'm purchasing more. The frustrating but key issue for me is that one or two spead in your system just don't do too much, each Harvester only cleans out a very small amount of power-line grunge and so I've found that you need to have multiples on the same feed to make a noticable change. However, the effect in my system once I made the jump to mutlples was significant and so I'm sold on the product, albeit an expensive improvement requiring several hundred dollars.


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## Tonto

I have an APC S15 power conditioner. I assume if I plug one of these into the back panel (only clean output) the light will never come on. If anybody wants to send me one, I'm happy to try this out.


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## California Brit

Not so. The idea that beyond a power conditioner the line is totally clean is just false. There are many high end phono amps that are battery powered in an effort to obtain clean DC! The conditioner will reduce the volume of distortion on the 60 hertz waveform but there will be plenty left over. The question should be does the system work better, is there a really noticeable difference, after inserting a black-box into the system? That black box could be the power conditioner or the Harvester after the conditioner or even the latest power cable. I found that one Harvester isn't enough on my power supply but multiples did make (in my stereo system) an audible difference.


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## islandman2020

I have just become aware of the Harvesters. Look at this link written by an engineer testing the Harvesters against the AUDIOPRISM - QUIETLINE FILTER Mk3. The Audioprisms cost less and seem to perform better.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/sho...e-Noise-Part-11-Noise-Harvester-and-Quietline


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## Sonnie

Just to clarify and make sure no one gets confused about exaggerated claims... the Harvester is designed to reduce the noise induced on your main power lines that is caused by electromagnetic and radio frequency interference. Per PS Audio, it only operates in the 7kHz to 15kHz range, so I am not sure how it can change "everything", do "spectrum" balancing, or how it can clean up the midrange, when it doesn't work in the midrange frequencies. It does not do any magic... it simply eliminates line noise if you have it. I would not buy these expecting miracles or "significant" improvements in your sound, unless you have significant line interference.


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## ajinfla

islandman2020 said:


> Look at this link written by an engineer testing the Harvesters against the AUDIOPRISM - QUIETLINE FILTER Mk3.


That "engineer" also believes in the efficacy of magic fuses and potions, etc. He decries any form of ears only listening tests. 
Just FYI.


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## islandman2020

So does anyone have an opinion if the Audioprism Quietline Filter MK3's are even worth considering?


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## Sonnie

Do you have line noise in your AC?


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## islandman2020

Hi Sonnie,

Yes I do. I have ground loop problem I suspect. I have two separate 20A circuits that power my HT. The circuit that powers my power amps became especially "noisy" when I put a couple of Crown XLS1500 power amps into the system. There was not nearly as much line noise with the Adcoms that I had been using. I thought it had to be the Crowns.....the only "changed variable" in the equation here. But Andrew Robinson assured me that there was something else going on as his Crown XLS's had a low noise floor, and his were very quiet. I then tried switching the power amps to the other 20A circuit, and the noise completely disappeared. I used a circuit tester and found that the "quiet" circuit did not have the ground connected. For eight years, all the years I have lived in this location, I did not know there was not a ground on this circuit. In testing the entire house I found this to be the only ungrounded circuit. I ended up switching everything leaving the Crowns in the ungrounded circuit. What I would like to be able to do is hook the ground back up, but have a way to eliminate the noise...... unless it is safe to leave this circuit ungrounded with it being used for just the power amps. The Crowns have a circuit breaker built in, but I do not know how effective it is? 

Devlon


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## Sonnie

I would think having an ungrounded circuit could be dangerous, and while I wired our entire house, I am not a certified electrician. I am one of those that probably knows just enough to hopefully not cause any danger... been here 14 years, so keeping my fingers crossed.

You might be better off starting a new thread in the amp forum and seeing if you can get some better advise than what I can give you. There could be some troubleshooting that others can recommend... and perhaps someone can tell you if there is anything that will address your issue.

I do know that the Crown amp I have hear has a terribly high noise floor too... unusable to me.


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## islandman2020

After 14 years I think you're safe! Plenty long enough to test your wiring skills anyway, lol. On the Crowns it's kinda strange on their sensitivity. On the ungrounded circuit the Crowns are quieter than the Adcoms are on the grounded circuit, but on the grounded circuit the Crowns are more noisy...... so go figure! Ok, thanks for your input and I will try to find a thread that more addresses my situation. 

I am still interested though to know if anyone has had experience with the Audioprism MK3's


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