# Help me understand this.... Denon misleading power ratings



## abrook (Jul 30, 2013)

Hi - I hope I'm getting some wrong information. I recently invested in a 3313 because it was a great deal and step up, with the def tech 8060's, from the Bose lifestyle. I liked the 3313 well enough to order another last Friday. There's better avr's out there but it fit my needs/budget. I really hate the word budget and am well over it. There is a thread on another forum that concerned me about Denon misleading power ratings. If it was just an opinion I wouldn't have taken time to post this. Can someone debunk this as fact or fiction on demons power ratings or their clever marketing. I admit I've read so much I can't decipher what's true anymore. When I think I'm getting some good info the article ends in a sale. 

Let me know your thoughts


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Comparing the sound between two AVRs can be tricky to say the least. There are so many possible settings, options, and variables, it is easy to miss one and jump to the conclusion that one AVR is better or worse. Equalization like Audyssey MultEQ adds a level of complexity to the comparison. The only accurate way to compare is to thoroughly make sure all settings are equivalent, then have a way to quickly (within a few seconds) A-B compare the two. Audio-memory comparison over a gap of hours is too susceptible to mental and emotional factors to be accurate for making subtle comparisons.
There are a lot of ways to state specs, and a lot of opinions about what is the right or wrong way to do it. To my knowledge, Denon is a reputable company that is not deceptive or underhanded in the way they state their specs. Any time you compare specs for seemingly-equivalent equipment between two manufacturers, there will be some translation involved in making the comparison.
Do not get overly concerned when someone in a forum lets their dissatisfaction about a product or company turn into a general indictment of that company. It happens in forums everywhere, even at HTS once in awhile, although we do our best keep such discussions fair, factual, and objective. Best advice is to treat the objectivity of highly-negative statements by individuals as probably suspect, and pay more attention to the ones that stay calm, open-minded, factual, and thorough.


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## fmw (Aug 11, 2013)

Well said. I would add that the AVR has enough power to handle the huge majority of home theaters in the U.S. It is an excellent product.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

It is well documented that the real world watts/channel output is less than the claimed out put. Manufacturers typically test their units under very specific criteria that give results that are more favorable that real world use. Like testing with only 2 channels being driven & at a narrow band.

Does this mean you have been lied to. Well...lets just say that we know what/how they do it & we take them with a grain of salt. Denon is a respected company & better at representing themselves compared to others. The main issue is how do like the way your unit preforms. If it is playing loud enough without distortion your fine.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

What I can tell you is that there are no receiver manufactures out there who post actual amplifier output under real speaker loads other then H.K. Most receivers will do fairly well driving two channels but fail miserably driving 5 or 7 channels. Some in bench tests will drop down to almost half their rated output under a decent load before distortion is heard.

As a general rule the weight of the receiver is a good item to look at as the biggest issue is the power supply is not large enough to drive all the amplifiers to there capable output. With the exception of class D amps in some of the higher end receivers an A/B switching amp is the norm and is not very efficient and requires a good amount of power that most power supplies cant deliver. 

If you look around on the net you will find several sites that do actual bench tests of many of the popular receivers out there and they tell a very different story than what the manufacturers state.


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## abrook (Jul 30, 2013)

Here's what I was talking about. I copied the part that has me wondering where the truth lies.

Quote:

i did notice a very slight downgrade of picture quality.. but its the power..

125 wpc for 2 channels but dropps to like 79 wpc in 7 channel mode they made it sound like 125 per channel which it is not..
deceptive marketing.. but all the companys do it..

+1. Denon are very clever how they word and format their product sheets by highlighting discrete and identical amp quality, identical power for all channels and repeating the ratings for every individual channel. I was naive and fell for it a couple of years ago with a 1911. It didn't last long. Other manufacturers do it too, but not quite so well. I'm bitter.

Quote:

Denon has always rated their Receivers with all channels driven. I'd be extremely surprised if this were not the case with the 3313CI.

**********
Not correct, but understandable why you'd have that idea. Denon's product sheets certainly give the impression that they're rated as all channels driven, but they are definitely not. [Hint: look for the power consumption figure on the back of the unit. Divide it by 2 (~50% efficient) and then divide again by the number of channels driven to get an approx. ACD power figure.] That's not to say Denon don't have some very stout amps in their AVR's though. People just need to know what they're getting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey 

Denon rates their AVRs like everybody else, 2 channels = X, 7 channels = X * 0.6 (appr.).
There are only very few manufacturers, which provide realistic power data per channel for a larger number of channels combined.

Only NAD comes to mind in "consumer grade" AVR's.


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## abrook (Jul 30, 2013)

Below is more supporting that. If this is true then it will eat me wondering how much better it could sound. 




AV RECEIVER REVIEWS

Denon AVR-3312CI A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures


HT Labs Measures
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1% distortion at 122.9 watts 
1% distortion at 143.3 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1% distortion at 82.9 watts 
1% distortion at 103.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1% distortion at 79.5 watts 
1% distortion at 96.8 watts

Analog frequency response in Pure Direct mode: 
–0.13 dB at 10 Hz 
–0.04 dB at 20 Hz 
+0.07 dB at 20 kHz 
–2.65 dB at 50 kHz

Analog frequency response with signal processing: 
–0.40 dB at 10 Hz 
–0.14 dB at 20 Hz 
–0.20 dB at 20 kHz 
–58.93 dB at 50 kHz



This graph shows that the AVR-3312CI’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 122.9 watts and 1 percent distortion at 143.3 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 202.0 watts and 1 percent distortion at 225.5 watts.

There was no multichannel input to measure. THD+N from the CD input to the speaker output was less than 0.005 percent at 1 kHz when driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load. Crosstalk at 1 kHz driving 2.83 volts into an 8-ohm load was –77.40 dB left to right and –77.93 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –108.68 dBrA.

From the Dolby Digital input to the loudspeaker output, the left channel measures –0.09 dB at 20 Hz and –0.19 dB at 20 kHz. The center channel measures –0.09 dB at 20 Hz and –0.18 dB at 20 kHz, and the left surround channel measures –0.09 dB at 20 Hz and –0.11 dB at 20 kHz. From the Dolby Digital input to the line-level output, the LFE channel is –0.01 dB at 20 Hz when referenced to the level at 40 Hz and reaches the upper 3-dB down point at 118 Hz and the upper 6-dB down point at 121 Hz.—MJP



Video Test Bench
The Denon performed extremely well on our video tests, HDMI in to HDMI out. Notably, it passed the 2:2 tests on both HD and SD, with a particularly good showing on this test in SD. A significant percentage of the AVRs we review fail one or both of the 2:2 deinterlacing tests. The Denon’s only failure was on chroma resolution, which showed a major red rolloff on the highest horizontal resolution burst (only blue lines remained visible on that burst). This should not, however, degrade most real-world program material.

The only difficulty I encountered was accessing the somewhat confusing menus for setting up the video- output resolution—and the way this is presented in the (CD-ROM) manual. The latter describes the setup procedure four pages before it tells you how to access the setup menu itself. Hint: You have to access the Input Setup submenu to set the output resolution, and it’s set separately for each input. —TJN


COMPANY INFO
Denon
(201) 762-6500
usa.denon.com


ARTICLE CONTENTS

Page 1
Page 2
Specs
HT Labs Measures


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## vann_d (Apr 7, 2009)

I don't see anything in either the rated specs or the measured specs that would lead me to think Denon is being particularly misleading in their marketing. Generally, when a manufacturer states discrete identical amps, they mean that each channel could output maximum rated power when driven individually. This does not mean all channels simultaneously. It does not mean that each channel has its own power supply. 

Another point to consider: What's the difference between 80W and 125W? Not a lot. About 2dB of headroom. No big deal...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Although that is true there is some issues with distortion even at 80watts per ch and that will be heard. the best example I can give is my own Onkyo 805. It was bench tested by Secrets 5 years ago. Under an 8 ohm load it surpassed its specs doing 173 Watts into two channels and the real surprising number was that leaving it in the 8ohm setting driving a 4ohm load it was able to maintain 270watts into two channels The end conclusion was simply because of the monstrous power supply it had in it (the receiver weighs 54lbs) All channels driven it was able to maintain better than 110watts per ch without even breaking a sweat.

I have said it over and over again if the receivers published specs say it outputs 120watts per channel all channels and it only weighs 25lbs it simply is not going to happen unless its a class D amp.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

abrook said:


> If this is true then it will eat me wondering how much better it could sound.


If what? That is a sincere question. Any AVR design could be "better" if it was designed differently. If their _design_ was such that it could drive 125W/ch with all channels driven at once, then it _might_ sound a _little_ better under certain _rare_ conditions, but more than likely you would never hear it even then. As *vann_d* pointed out, it is 2 dB of headroom, not a lot.

Very few manufacturers publish their detailed test methods. It would be nice, but you usually only see it from companies with higher-priced products whose designs are bulletproof, who go "above and beyond the call of duty," and are proud to prove it to you.

An individual has implied that Denon's specs are somehow deceptive or underhanded, and now you are upset, it is "eating at you." Again, I am not trying to put anyone down, especially you. Your questions were sincere, but only show how easy it is to get caught up in someone else's negativity. I see nothing in Denon's specs that are inconsistent with the lab test data. Someone has _implied_ that Denon _implied_ something that they do not. They actually do put more information in their specs than a lot of manufacturers do, and it all looks quite good to me.

Our emotions affect our hearing, and if someone believes their AVR is not what they were initially led to believe it would be, it will probably not sound very good to them. My advice: give it a fair chance. It looks in specs like a good AVR, very capable of driving your system to LOUD program levels very cleanly. If you are going to believe someone's opinion, how about that of those posting here that you have a good AVR with good specs?

Please do not think I am beating up on you! There is so much negativity on the internet - in the world - and it is so easy to get caught up in it and let it ruin what could be a positive experience, such as you enjoying your AVR! I sincerely hope you are able to step back and take a fresh look at what you have and appreciate and have fun with it!

Please pardon me if I have come across as preachy. I mean you no disrespect whatsoever, and hope this has in some way been helpful to you.

Edit: Certainly one can find examples that test better than their specs, and that is a good thing. To test at (or extremely close to, as is the case here) one's specs is not something to deride. Don't get caught up in splitting hairs over bench data differences that are next to impossible to hear in real life.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Nicely said Wayne, & you are exactly correct. I hope that is why people come to this forum, we don't candy coat or give credit where none is due. You get the truth when it comes to equipment. That said, I feel confident that the Denon is a fine unit.

Another thing to consider is how much power it takes to drive the lower frequencies (exponentially more). So if you are using a sub & crossing @ say 80 Hz, it leaves more availble power to drive the speakers (since the sub assumes those duties). I have a Yamaha that is rated @ 75 watts per channel, it is plenty for my setup.

If you truely are not satisfied with the power, I would recommend at least adding an external amp to drive the front 3 speakers. Again, doing so will result in more power for the surround speakers.


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## fmw (Aug 11, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> Although that is true there is some issues with distortion even at 80watts per ch and that will be heard. the best example I can give is my own Onkyo 805. It was bench tested by Secrets 5 years ago. Under an 8 ohm load it surpassed its specs doing 173 Watts into two channels and the real surprising number was that leaving it in the 8ohm setting driving a 4ohm load it was able to maintain 270watts into two channels The end conclusion was simply because of the monstrous power supply it had in it (the receiver weighs 54lbs) All channels driven it was able to maintain better than 110watts per ch without even breaking a sweat.
> 
> I have said it over and over again if the receivers published specs say it outputs 120watts per channel all channels and it only weighs 25lbs it simply is not going to happen unless its a class D amp.


It isn't going to happen period. Most of us use a watt or less on average with perhaps up to 10 or 20 watts for peaks. Hardly anybody needs 173 watts per channel. It's just specsmanship. It has nothing to do with audio requirements.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

I would not be so quick to assume that few people need that much power. There are many speakers that take lots of power and lots of people who listen quite loud.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

fmw said:


> It isn't going to happen period. Most of us use a watt or less on average with perhaps up to 10 or 20 watts for peaks. Hardly anybody needs 173 watts per channel. It's just specsmanship. It has nothing to do with audio requirements.


My speakers are 95db efficient however they dont come alive unless sent at least 60 to 100 watts of power. I would have to say that most decent speakers dont really reach 65db output (at the listening position) till fed at least 50watts not 10-20watts


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> My speakers are 95db efficient however they dont come alive unless sent at least 60 to 100 watts of power. I would have to say that most decent speakers dont really reach 65db output (at the listening position) till fed at least 50watts not 10-20watts


Peak? RMS? Pink Noise? Program Material? Which program material? We are talking about specs, be specific.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Something else to consider is driving all channels steady state with a 1kHz sine wave is not a real world test.
It is a bench test that allows a consistent repetitive test of output power into what is likely a purely resistive load.
This standardized methodology allows comparing measurements between testers and amps.
With real world material you never get simultaneous peaks on all channels and very seldom (maybe never) is the material in the surround channels as loud as the LCR channels.
I personally do not think Denon (or the other manufacturers) are misleading consumers.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> My speakers are 95db efficient however they dont come alive unless sent at least 60 to 100 watts of power. I would have to say that most decent speakers dont really reach 65db output (at the listening position) till fed at least 50watts not 10-20watts


I would like to see some voltage and current numbers taken at the speaker terminals correlated to SPL at the LP.
Just the voltage and current would be great.
Without the measured numbers the output power is pretty much speculation.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

AudiocRaver said:


> Peak? RMS? Pink Noise? Program Material? Which program material? We are talking about specs, be specific.


I have done my own tests using pink noise and although not scientific watching the 12 segment led on each channel of my Samson amp 0db would be 300watts output on each channel. I have reached reference level at the listening position with the meter showing -4db that is certainly not 10 to 20watts of power. 
Normal use during movies it generally is showing consistent levels of -12 to -8db again not 10 to 20watts
I previously had a 150watt per ch Samson in the same class that would often come close to peak output with the same volume levels.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Here is an example assuming 95 db efficient speakers and the Denon AVR in question:


With speaker efficiency of 95 db / W @ 1 m
if LP is 4 m away in a medium-live room, -6 db, gives 89 db
ref level is 4 db lower, or 0.4 w rms, 40 w pk (Dolby standard 20 db headroom)
IOW, your speakers should give you reference level with 0.4 W rms signal, and 20 db peaks would reach the 40 W level. Listening loud, say 6 db higher, could demand peaks 4x that, or 160W, which the Denon AVR in question could deliver instantaneously on one or two channels.

Edit: This means SPLs averaged over a few seconds that max at 85 db plus short-term peaks at 105 db the LP with normal "reference" listening, and SPLs at max-average 91 db plus short-term peak 111 db with "loud" listening. You also have to consider what the speakers can handle.

There are certainly AVR/speaker combinations that can go a lot louder, and of course there are speaker types that are very power hungry and there are listeners that listen louder and rooms that are bigger or deader and the list of possibilities goes on and on... the point, though, is that there is nothing shabby about this level of performance, and it is louder than many listeners ever go. Again showing that the Denon AVR in question is quite capable as specified.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I own the Denon 4520 Receiver and it pushes my MartinLogans very well, although I know the power ratings are on the lower side for my Prodigy's. At super loud levels, beyond what I listen to on a regular basis, the speakers will begin to break up/or the amp clips (it sounds bad). Of course these older ML's are really limited in just how loud they can get anyway, but they have never failed me with anything I have used to power them.

However, I can take my Galaxy 88 Tube amp at 24 wpc and make my Arx A5's play louder than I can stand it with ever breaking a sweat.

I have heard quite a few speakers at various shows get extremely loud from 8-12 wpc. A lot of it has to do with the efficiency of your speakers.

If you are happy with the way your 3313 sounds and it is playing loud enough for you, then I would not worry about what anyone else says or what the specs/testing shows.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

abrook, as has been mentioned, all manufacturers quote their power ratings in a slightly favorable light. There are so many variables at play (peak, RMS, distortion level, program material, etc. etc.) that you really can't directly compare with a great deal of accuracy. Bench tests do come up of many units, which I guess you could use to compare, but even those aren't really representative of most regular listening. 

I think even with an action packed soundtrack playing, you would be unlikely to see all 7 channels driven simultaneously for any extended period of time. the only way to really be sure is to fire it up in your room with your speakers and see how you like it. And remember that to get an extra 3dB louder, the power requirement doubles, so moving up from 100 to 125 watts will not make a significant difference.


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## fmw (Aug 11, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> My speakers are 95db efficient however they dont come alive unless sent at least 60 to 100 watts of power. I would have to say that most decent speakers dont really reach 65db output (at the listening position) till fed at least 50watts not 10-20watts


I would say you need to do some measurements. You're just guessing about how many watts of power you are using. Your numbers don't add up to anything I've ever experienced. The term "come alive" must refer to volume. Yes, no question that more power resolves to more sound pressure. Finally, you need to give up the concept of an amplifier "feeding" power. The reality is that the amplifier is like a pool of available power from which the speakers draw power. They draw no more power than they need at any given moment.

On we go. Let's take your 95db sensitive speakers as the example. That means that at 1 meter they produce 95db by drawing 1 watt of power. Let's say you listen at 3 meters so with 1 watt you get an SPL of 91db. That is way louder than I listen. In fact it would drive me out of the room. I don't know about you. But lets apply 65 watts and see what we get. Each 3 db of additionsl SPL requires a doubling of amplifier power. So 94db would require 2 watts. 97 db would require 4 watts, 100db would require 8 watts, 103db would require 16 watts, 106db would require 32 watts and, finally, 109 db would use up the 65 watts. Have you ever listened to your system at 109 db? 

The problem, Tony, is that you have been taking too much input from the high end audio community and much of what the high end audio community believes and says is nonsense. I doubt you have ever used 65 watts per channel let alone 100 watts in your system. It simply isn't necessary and doesn't happen with speakers like yours. Hope that helps clear things up.


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## fmw (Aug 11, 2013)

Sonnie said:


> I own the Denon 4520 Receiver and it pushes my MartinLogans very well, although I know the power ratings are on the lower side for my Prodigy's. At super loud levels, beyond what I listen to on a regular basis, the speakers will begin to break up/or the amp clips (it sounds bad). Of course these older ML's are really limited in just how loud they can get anyway, but they have never failed me with anything I have used to power them.


I would put my money on the speakers breaking up.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Yeah... I think it would happen regardless of how much power I had on them. I may hook up my EP2500 just to see... and/or the Anthem 225 that is coming in for the speaker evaluation event. I also want to compare the ML ElectroMotion ESL's vs my Prodigy's and see if ML has improved the SPL capabilities of the electrostatics.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Good grief Sonnie, after watching Oblivion in your theater, I can't imagine wanting louder speakers! And those eight 18's were just truely impressive. But then again, what an addictive hobby!:spend:


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Personally, I see no reason not to be happy with the Denon and do not consider them to be misleading at all. They give more info than most.


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