# Advice for control/listening room



## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

Hi everyone,
I posted this over in REW thread but was pointed here as a better place for advice. I have a ground floor studio in our three story house which includes a live room, vocal booth and a control/listening room. I have been steadily preparing the various spaces over the past 5 months and have arrived at the time to work the control room.

Here are my REW measurements taken with the following equipment:

Alesis Monitor One Mk2 speakers powered by an old school Yamaha EMX150 desk

Tascam US-1800

Behringer ECM8000 using the generic calibration file

The measurements were taken at my listening position, ear height, 900mm from each speaker at 75dB

The room is 3m x 3.5m x 2.7m high and has limited treatment at the moment - 6 x SA600-75's from Sound Acoustics which were left over from the vocal booth - one between speakers, one each at first reflection and 2 stacked on top of each in the back two corners of the room.

I have also been cheating a bit with room eq using a Behringer Ultra Curve Pro DEQ2496 - used the same ECM8000 in the exact same position to create an automatic room eq.

I'm interested to hear what you guys think and if there are any suggestions further treatment wise (including anything which might reduce dependency on the Ultra Curve).

Here are the measurements without the Ultra Curve
View attachment Mar 25 15_53_02 no UC.mdat


















And here they are with the Ultra Curve
View attachment Mar 25 15_53_59 with UC.mdat


















And finally a diagram of the room layout including guitars hung on the right hand wall  There is a medium weight curtain that covers the main entrance and front windows.









I'm looking forward to getting to know as much and as many people as I can,
Cheers,
Mick


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Being offset is giving you different response between left and right speaker. Door behind you makes it difficult to address cancellations off the rear wall.

35ish is modal as it does not change based on the EQ where the others do.

Decay time seems long in the 100 and down range. Upper frequencies seem short. Looks like too much thin absorption and not enough thick.

Bryan


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## jim1961 (Apr 8, 2011)

Please remeasure at 1/24th octave smoothing and only measure one channel at a time.


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## jim1961 (Apr 8, 2011)

bpape said:


> Being offset is giving you different response between left and right speaker. Door behind you makes it difficult to address cancellations off the rear wall.
> 
> 35ish is modal as it does not change based on the EQ where the others do.
> 
> ...


Agree about the offset. The HF dip is probably due to measuring both channels at once.


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

bpape said:


> Being offset is giving you different response between left and right speaker. Door behind you makes it difficult to address cancellations off the rear wall.
> 
> 35ish is modal as it does not change based on the EQ where the others do.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bryan, you are absolutely correct - there is only the 7 x SA600-75 which are 600mm x 600mm @ 75mm thick loosely placed around the room (siting on top of mixing desk, arm chair, filing cabinet and 2 on top of each other at 45 deg in the bottom 2 corners). So zero bass trapping but that gives me a great indication of where to start.



jim1961 said:


> Please remeasure at 1/24th octave smoothing and only measure one channel at a time.





jim1961 said:


> Agree about the offset. The HF dip is probably due to measuring both channels at once.


Jim, I'll do the remeasurments after Easter unless I get a chance later this afternoon. Are we talking with or without the Ultra Curve? 

Cheers
Mick


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

Here are the left and right charts at 1/24 Octave smoothing. I've included both with and without the UltraCurve as I am still interested in treating the room to reduce reliance on it. I guess I'm keen to clean up anything it may be masking if that makes sense.

Here's the Left - No UC








And the Right - No UC








Left - With UC








And Right - With UC








Mick


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

This is a perfect example of why you need to set up symmetrically left to right in a room. The right speaker is obviously a much bigger offender. That's likely because it's set up pretty much 1/2 of the width of the room while the left is getting a ton of boundary gain from being corner loaded.

As you're seeing, you can't EQ out a modal null. You need to work with positioning to fix that null.

Bryan


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## jim1961 (Apr 8, 2011)

bpape said:


> This is a perfect example of why you need to set up symmetrically left to right in a room. The right speaker is obviously a much bigger offender. That's likely because it's set up pretty much 1/2 of the width of the room while the left is getting a ton of boundary gain from being corner loaded.
> 
> As you're seeing, you can't EQ out a modal null. You need to work with positioning to fix that null.
> 
> Bryan


+1

Unfortunately, I dont see a way to position things for R/L symmetry. I would fill that left corner behind the speaker with absorption for starters though.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Sometimes when you get stuck between a rock and a hard place like this, you have to resort to something drastic like sitting diagonally facing into a corner.

Treat the front corner and the diagonal corner behind you as well as your side walls more for boundary interactions than for reflections.

Bryan


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

Thanks for the replys Bryan and Jim,
The monitors are not crucial for recording but are when mixing etc so perhaps I'll extend the end of the work area with a collapsible shelf in front of the vocal booth door and move the right hand monitor to get the symmetry required. I'll do a temporary setup and measure and post the results tomorrow. 

Any suggestions as to how far from the corners /vocal booth wall I should look to get them?
Cheers
Mick


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

The room is relatively square. I would honestly try the diagonal thing.


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## Antonios (Mar 31, 2013)

Hi everyone, I am new at the forum.

Mick i wanted to ask you with which software did you make the plant view of your studio (5th pic in your first post). Looks very impressive.


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

Antonios said:


> Hi everyone, I am new at the forum.
> 
> Mick i wanted to ask you with which software did you make the plant view of your studio (5th pic in your first post). Looks very impressive.


Hi and welcome,
I used an online tool called Floorplanner. Simple to use and no cost 
Cheers,
Mick


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

bpape said:


> The room is relatively square. I would honestly try the diagonal thing.


Ok, I'll give both ways a try and post the charts later this week.
Thanks Bryan,
Mick


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

Here is the symetrical measurements. Listening position @38% room length and speakers/listening point form 1000mm equilateral triangle...

I have also removed all of the temporary treatment from the room to givea clean slate to work from...

First left and right together with no UltraCurve








Left with no UltraCurve








Right with no UltraCurve








Both left and right with UltraCurve








Left with UltraCurve








Right with UltraCurve








I'll setup the diagonal shortly and see what we get with that too
Cheers,
Mick


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

Here are the diagonal measurements. Speakers and listening point make a 1000mm equilateral triangle. The listening position is now facing the top left corner of my studio plan diagram on page 1 of this thread. No treatment in the room...

Both left and right with no UltraCurve








Left with no UltraCurve








Right with no UltraCurve








Both with UltraCurve








Left with UltraCurve








Right with UltraCurve








I look forward to hearing your thoughts and suggestions.
Thanks heaps,
Mick


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

Shameless bump... any advice on my latest measurements?
Cheers,
Mick


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Really hard to AB those with so many graphs in between. Any chance you can just use overlays so we can see each one AB diagonal vs original on the same graph? For now, let's just look at both channels no eq.

Bryan


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

Hi Bryan,
Thanks heaps for persisting with this. Here are the AB charts. I have done 2, original offset v diagonal (but the original still had the temporary treatment in place while the diagonal doesn't) and the symetrical v diagonal (both with no treatment).

Original (Black) v Diagonal (Blue)








Symetrical (Red) v Diagonal (Blue)








Thanks again,
Mick


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Well, certainly different. Don't know that it's any better. In fact, the diagonal appears to have more nulls if you look at things with 75db being the midline of the response.


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

bpape said:


> Well, certainly different. Don't know that it's any better. In fact, the diagonal appears to have more nulls if you look at things with 75db being the midline of the response.


Ok, thanks Bryan. So do you think I should go to the symetrical setup or stick with the diagonal? Any suggestions on where to focus with treatment or is this just going to be a case of more trial and error?
Cheers,
Mick


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

If you do the symmetric setup, at least you can test left to right, front to back, etc. and try to pin down where a problem is coming from to address it - assuming you can/are willing to treat where it needs.

Bryan


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

bpape said:


> If you do the symmetric setup, at least you can test left to right, front to back, etc. and try to pin down where a problem is coming from to address it - assuming you can/are willing to treat where it needs.
> 
> Bryan


Ok symmetrical it is. I'm prepared to do whatever it takes to improve the acoustics of the room. Are GIK products available here in Australia? Where would you suggest I start?
Cheers,
Mick


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

We would have to ship there and it will not be cheap at all.


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

bpape said:


> We would have to ship there and it will not be cheap at all.


I'll see what I can source locally then. Given I am a novice and am not sure what to look for in the graphs do they show anything I should specifically address to begin with? Any insight/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Mick


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Test the original position, then 1' off to one side, then 1' back or forward to identify which problems are coming from which areas.

Bryan


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

Here are the symmetrical measurements with offsets measured 30cm (1') from the listening position

Center
View attachment Apr 17 12_52_31 sym CENTER.mdat


Left of center 30cm
View attachment Apr 17 12_56_22 sym LEFT.mdat


Right of center 30cm
View attachment Apr 17 12_58_16 sym RIGHT.mdat


Forward of center 30cm
View attachment Apr 17 13_40_38 sym FORWARD.mdat


Backward of center 30cm
View attachment Apr 17 13_00_11 sym BACK.mdat


Comparisons:

Center (Black) Left 








Center (Black) Backward








Center (Black) Right








Center (Black) Forward


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

What are the other colors in each graph besides the black you noted?


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

Brown in the first one is the measurement 1" to the left of the listening position (center)

Blue in the second one is the measurement 1" back from the listening position

Purple in the third one is the measurement 1" to the right of the listening position

Green in the fourth one is the measurement 1" forward from the listening position

Sorry if I have misunderstood but I thought you wanted to see these compared to the listening position


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## Jon10 (Feb 25, 2013)

Nice! I'm really interested in Bryan's input about how to "read" the measures of the different positions (i.e. is there a way to pinpoint where the problems are coming from with these graphs??). 

That said, the blue one (backward 1 foot) feels like it would be a better listening position, as it is the one that helped the most with the bass problems. It kinda caused trouble at higher freq, but since it's a lot easier to cure higher freq than lower ones.... however I guess you can not really afford 1 foot back hehe 

As far as acoustic material, if you can't afford the real stuff the DIY way can be affordable. Wooden frame, dense mineral wool, good thick fabric and some time can do the trick! Or take a look on Ebay for some acoustic foam. Just make sure the NRC ratings of the foam suits your needs, usually 4" thick does a honest job.


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

Jon10 said:


> Nice! I'm really interested in Bryan's input about how to "read" the measures of the different positions (i.e. is there a way to pinpoint where the problems are coming from with these graphs??).
> 
> That said, the blue one (backward 1 foot) feels like it would be a better listening position, as it is the one that helped the most with the bass problems. It kinda caused trouble at higher freq, but since it's a lot easier to cure higher freq than lower ones.... however I guess you can not really afford 1 foot back hehe
> 
> As far as acoustic material, if you can't afford the real stuff the DIY way can be affordable. Wooden frame, dense mineral wool, good thick fabric and some time can do the trick! Or take a look on Ebay for some acoustic foam. Just make sure the NRC ratings of the foam suits your needs, usually 4" thick does a honest job.


Thanks for the DIY suggestions Jon. I'm keen to hear Bryans response too assuming I've done the graphs the way he wanted...

Mick


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

I would agree that back 1' seems to help most with the lowest problems and get you closer to the +/-5 desired. It does deepen a null farther up - likely a cancellation off the wall behind you.

Bryan


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

Ok, so time for some research into what treatment to go with. Given we are going with the symmetrical setup should I just start with the standard first reflection points (left/right/ceiling) or maybe focus on the rear wall. I have freedom to do whatever I want construction wise so if putting a temporary or false wall in front of the windows at the rear will help then that is no problem.
Thanks again,
Mick


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

I've done a fair bit of treatment and rearranged the studio as per this new layout...









The speaker on the right is on a swivel mount so access to the booth is not obstructed.

I have treated the first reflection points at left, right and ceiling and have installed bass traps up the front left corner behind the speaker, across the ceiling/front wall corner above the workstation, across the ceiling/back wall corner and almost all of the way along the left and right/ceiling corners.

I have raised the speaker heights to 1320mm centers (from 1265mm) and have moved the listening position back 300mm. I am going to try lifting the speakers further to 1500mm on Wednesday to see if that makes further improvement.

Here is the comparison between the original 'Ideal Listening Position' (Black) and the measurement taken today after the above changes (Blue)









I feel like I am making progress but am keen to receive further wisdom if its available... 

As yet the back wall is untreated and is simply the curtain dropped in front of the windows. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Mick

PS. In case anyone is interested, here is the measurement taken with the UltraCurve activated and calibrated for the room changes...


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## guild (Mar 21, 2013)

Here is the measurement after raising the speakers to 1380mm. It's not going to be practical to take them to 1500mm as I had hoped. 

Red is the new 1380mm graph and blue is the previous 1320mm graph


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