# Do "High End" Power Cables Make a Difference ?



## Guest

I have sold everything and am starting over with all new equipment.

I'm trying to really do it right this time in my 2-Channel listening room. My new equipment is pretty good....not what others would call "high end", but on my budget it's pretty great to me.

Should I invest in better quality power cables and do they make a noticable difference? Thx, Mark

New Equip:
Musical Fidelity A5 Integrated (250w 8ohms)
Musical Fidelity A5 CD Player (24/192 with tube output stage)
Monster HTPS 7000 Power Center
Monster AVS2000 Voltage Stabalizer
Tannoy S10 Towers, with Tannoy ST-50 SuperTweeters
Rel Q108e sub


----------



## Anthony

Hello Marks57.

You have opened the door to a famous tweeker vs. geeker debate that has raged since Tesla invented the radio. 

The short answer: yes it will make a difference
Justification: High end power cables have better connectors, shielded wire, and better wire (higher conductivity and flexibility). 

But is the effect audible: --> Ah, there's core of the argument. 

If you have the absolute worst case scenario, you may hear a difference. This would be one with lots of powerline noise picked up by the system and a voltage drop due to poor connections (wire to wall, wire to equipment, internal solders/crimps in the power cable).

Some people have bought the boutique power cables and SWEAR they heard a difference. Maybe they did, maybe they just really, really wanted to hear a difference because they spent $100 on the thing. Or maybe their old cable wasn't making a good connection at the wall and was losing some voltage due to increased resistance.

But if the equipment you bought came with a good quality cord that appears to be snug at both ends, you are probably fine.

I like making custom power cords for one reason: I can get the exact length I want. That's all, I don't expect a sonic difference. Less clutter, neater runs, less chance to send noise through a signal wire.

Hope this helps,
Anthony


----------



## Otto

Anthony said:


> But if the equipment you bought came with a good quality cord that appears to be snug at both ends, you are probably fine.


I think that's Anthony's right on target here. 

A boutique cable may have better construction, etc., but will it make an audible difference? The relatively mundane task of getting AC power from the wall to your components' transformers can be done just as well by the supplied power cords, in my opinion.

If you want, try them out. But do some double blind testing, if you can. I've not done it myself, but I think it would be pretty eye-opening to do those tests if you believe you can hear a difference when you are listening to them sighted.

I'd say spend your money on more tangible items -- room treatments, more music, or a nice bottle of wine. You'll get a lot more out of those things!


----------



## wbassett

Anthony said:


> Some people have bought the boutique power cables and SWEAR they heard a difference. Maybe they did, maybe they just really, really wanted to hear a difference because they spent $100 on the thing. Or maybe their old cable wasn't making a good connection at the wall and was losing some voltage due to increased resistance.


I think the biggest benefit would be in the shielding and 60hz noise that could bleed through to the audio cables. I try to run my power separately than my audio cables, but when you get to the actual piece of gear they do all come together in somewhat close proximity to each other. Each piece of equipment has it's own power supply, and part of that PS is a filtering system with rectifiers, transformers and other components. There is a tolerable input range that a piece of electronics can accept and still operate completely within it's specifications because the power supply is taking the input voltage, conditioning it and converting it to the numerous DC voltages that the electronics require. So unless the power cable was just so bad that it wasn't providing the correct input voltage, I personally think it's the shielding to prevent noise bleed that's more important.



> maybe they just really, really wanted to hear a difference because they spent $100 on the thing.


Interesting story/analogy (at least I thought so ). Years ago I was back home visiting and I went with my dad to pick up some auto parts. The new split fire plugs had just come out. I asked the guy at our local small town auto parts store if they really made a difference and this is what he said:
"Ya know... at $8 a plug I think people see a difference because they spent that much money. Personally, I don't see any major difference."

I think that applies with cables too. There is a point where cost vs perfomance no longer matters and it starts to become a brand name image factor. I see this all the time with HDMI cables. 

Here is what I do... when I get a new piece of gear, I throw out whatever cables that came in the box except for the power cord. I go with better quality/build cables, but not necessarily the big name brands like Monster (Sorry about that Monster Cable). Unlike the split fire scenario, I do think going with better cables than what came in the box does make a difference, and the biggest differnce is to go with a good quality speaker cable, but again- don't pay just for a name.

So in a long winded way I guess I just said I agree with Anthony and Otto


----------



## rcarlton

Roger Russell (worked as an engineer at McIntosh Labs for years) has some interesting things to say about speaker wire and power cords here.


----------



## Sonnie

I got a real kick out of the fact this deceptive practice got exposed...










That is a very good article.


----------



## Sonnie

And :unbelievable: I gotta have some of this :yikes: :coocoo:













:rofl2: :rofl2: :rofl2:


----------



## Sonnie

Btw... Mark, when you state "power cables" are you specifically talking about "power cords" or any kind of cables, wire, etc.? When I think of power cables, I'm thinking 115 volts.

I remember back when I first purchased my Velodyne HGS-15 I called up the Velodyne techs and spoke with one of the scientists who design their subs. I was asking about whether or not I needed spikes. I also asked if he thought the XYZ power cord would be worth an upgrade for that sub. He laughed and said something to the effect of, "If a higher end power cord would improve the sub in any way at all, we would have included it with the sub." Which is the same thing he said about the spikes. FWIW.


----------



## gsmollin

I find the cables situation both amusing, and distressing. It's amusing because the claims are so transparent. They never make any claims that can be measured or checked. It's distressing because people still buy the stuff, and the whole industry loses credibility, IMHO.


----------



## bobgpsr

As for shielded power cords -- first be sure you house power circuits are all in grounded metal solid conduit. Why just worry about the last 6 feet?


----------



## cruzmisl

bobgpsr said:


> As for shielded power cords -- first be sure you house power circuits are all in grounded metal solid conduit. Why just worry about the last 6 feet?


Well said.


----------



## brucek

Well actually, the shielding on high end power cables, is attempting to stop the power cord from _transmitting_ EM fields to other cords that may be laying beside the power cord. Interconnects are a high impedance circuit and can pick up energy fairly easily (that's why they're shielded). This is a fairly small possibility in my opinion - but still can't be discounted. 

I certainly replace all my standard 18 gauge power cords with heavier variety. Home-made is quite inexpensive to do - and I get to at least match the gauge in the wall and use connectors that mate very positively with the equipment and the wall receptacle. I use the a better than average wall receptacle also. Rather than the standard $1.00 type, I use $15.00 type. The connection is much more positive.

brucek


----------



## bobgpsr

I guess what I'm trying to say that if you are buying a > $500 power cord, you should be keeping interconnects away from it anyway -- and to reap the full benefit then going to the expense of using solid conduit for the AC mains supply is just another natural step along with the other expenses.


----------



## Fred33

There are a of elements that make up a great sound system. To me quality cables and ample power supply are crucial.


----------



## Anthony

you are right, Fred. But the debate centers around what is a quality cable and what is a colossal waste of money that is more based on marketing hype than actual facts.

Our goal is to find the middle point. Obviously tight connections and shielding are important and not gimmicks. Batteries, cryo-freeze, etc are probably gimmicks. Audioholics.com has some great writeups and actual test data on different cable designs. My favorite is extension cord beating out Monster Cable speaker wire for resistance, capacitance, and inductance specs.


----------



## Darren

My opinion:

Measureable difference? Yes
Noticeable difference? No (unless you are using seriously cheap crud to begin with)

I've built my own high end cables and really didn't notice much difference between those and the dreaded Monster cable. I still have my high end interconnects but that is it. My other cables are just run of the mill and I can't tell the difference.


----------



## tonyvdb

I agree with most here, the big thing to remember is the longer the run the larger the gauge should be if your just running 3 or 6 ft then using most decent quality interconnects and speaker wire will do just fine. The standard "rca" cables shipped with most consumer end equipment will do the job if run short distances.
Speaker wire should be as high a gauge as you can easily fit into the holes made on the binding posts. Dont use 16 awg wire if your powering your speakers with a 200watt amp for example. I personally use 12 awg wire for my surounds and 10 for my mains.
Just my two cents


----------



## lcaillo

Actually, for a short distance 16awg is just fine for even 200w. There may be differences in how speaker wires sound in some systems, but they are far far less than most proponents would want you to believe, and not all of the differences are improvements. As for power cords, I have never seen any evidence nor even a reasonable nor rational case made for any differences at all, other than possible need for shielding. Even that is rather unlikely in a well designed system.


----------



## terry j

A lot of this discussion has revolved around speaker cable and the like, this one discusses power cables of the high end variety

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

I like the fact that maybe 60% of the article covers the 'difficulties and limitations' of blind testing ha ha, but I'm afraid that does very little to cover the bald facts of the matter.


----------



## MakeFlat

Only if you have an inadequate cable to begin with. But then an adequately rated power cable should do the job.


----------



## Guest

The power cord debate is as endless as any of the cable debates. Some can hear a difference, some cannot. 

Best thing to do is try yourself and see what differences you hear or do not hear. A great place to start is with some cheap Volex (sp?) power cords which run around $15. Next are power cords from Signal Cable they call Magic Power Cords - $70 for 3ft. 

Try these two out and see if YOU hear a difference and go from there.

Dan


----------



## JCD

dtb300 said:


> The power cord debate is as endless as any of the cable debates. Some can hear a difference, some cannot.
> 
> Best thing to do is try yourself and see what differences you hear or do not hear. A great place to start is with some cheap Volex (sp?) power cords which run around $15. Next are power cords from Signal Cable they call Magic Power Cords - $70 for 3ft.
> 
> Try these two out and see if YOU hear a difference and go from there.
> 
> Dan


One thing to keep in mind if you do something like this is that you should not underestimate the power of suggestion. Even when you try to keep it in mind, the seed has already been planted.

JCD


----------



## MakeFlat

Don't we generally expect to find something better before we walk into a high end store? Then, the "high-end" power cord fulfills our expectation and we hear what we want to hear.

Miles and miles of power cable, transformers after transformers, followed by all the individual circuits with #12 AWG wires in a house and the last 3 ft made a huge difference? Go tell your local power company and find out from them if the last 3 ft really made a huge difference.


----------



## Guest

MakeFlat said:


> Don't we generally expect to find something better before we walk into a high end store? Then, the "high-end" power cord fulfills our expectation and we hear what we want to hear.
> 
> Miles and miles of power cable, transformers after transformers, followed by all the individual circuits with #12 AWG wires in a house and the last 3 ft made a huge difference? Go tell your local power company and find out from them if the last 3 ft really made a huge difference.


That makes sense, but what if you got a good surge protector/line cleaner and after that you got "high end" cable? I would think then it would help.


----------



## alan monro

Mark Don't wast your money on special cables, these cables are being sold by lying greedy salesmen who most know that speaker and mains cables make absolutely no difference to the sound . The government should send them to jail for 'deception' I dont know if in USA there is such a criminal charge??? Alan


----------



## MakeFlat

Iggster1986 said:


> That makes sense, but what if you got a good surge protector/line cleaner and after that you got "high end" cable? I would think then it would help.


Perhaps during an abnormal surge of power you could find a difference. In normal use, the DC power supply in every amp has plenty of filtering to filter out noise. Are you saying that the "high-end" power cable acts like a surge protector/line cleaner? If you have a surge suppressor/line cleaner, followed by any power cable, then you would be evaluating the surge suppressor/line cleaner + the power cable, confusing the issue.


----------



## lcaillo

alan monro said:


> Mark Don't wast your money on special cables, these cables are being sold by lying greedy salesmen who most know that speaker and mains cables make absolutely no difference to the sound . The government should send them to jail for 'deception' I dont know if in USA there is such a criminal charge??? Alan


There is much vehemence and recriminations regarding the matter of cables of all types. The fact is that most who comment on the matter have an opinion and make lots of assumptions but have never actually done any objective testing nor made a significant attempt at any science regarding the matter. I suggest that we keep the tone of the discussion civil by discussing facts when available, our experience when it may prove helpful, and theory and hypothesis without emotion.

There is nothing criminal about selling overpriced products to people who believe that they actually hear a difference. Some of the claims made in advertising are certainly outrageous, but there is no need to make all salespeople and businesses who sell higher end cables out to be criminals. Most of them simply don't understand the technology any better than their clients.

I have done some objective testing of power conditioners, speaker cables, and interconnects, and have seen enough to know that the issue is more complex than the naysayers would like it to be, and that most of the noted effects are far more due to expectation bias and placebo effects than the proponents would admit.

Speaker wires and interconnects can make an audible difference in some systems under some conditions, but they are very minor compared to what people are expecting to hear or want to hear. Their experiences are "real" because their perception includes the biases that they are conditioned to have. They may not relate to what can be attributed to physical differences in the sound. On the other hand, to say that cabling cannot make a measurable difference based on assumptions that one understands all the variables involved is simply unscientific, and IME, wrong.

Power cables are hard to make a case for, as long as the connections are solid and the size is appropriate for the current used. Noise may be a factor in some cases and shielding may be useful in some cases, but these are rare. Power conditioners do often make a measurable reduction in noise, but it is rare that this noise makes it past a typical power supply. Common mode or ground noise may have an effect in some systems, however, and some noise does pass through a conventional power supply in some systems. Inter-component noise can be an issue that filtering can affect. For most people, the effects of expensive devices and cables are not meaningful in any objective sense.

That said, and all based on my experience and measurements, BTW, many people do experience differences that THEY feel are meaningful. Some may not like the fact that they report them, but here at HTS we WILL discuss the matter in a civil and respectful way, or moderators will take action. That is the way we do things here...everyone gets to state their views, experience, and knowledge, but we keep it civil, without demeaning anyone. Be helpful, respect others, and keep the tenor of the discussion moderate. Stick to facts as much as possible and understand that your opinion is just that until you support your assumptions with facts and/or measurements.


----------



## alan monro

Leonard . Ron Carlton replied with details that i agree with 100% :T. I did not want to repeat it in my reply . Talking freely , and generally , Not everybody has my experience ie,fifty years of designing my own Valve (tube) and solid state amplifiers . Also, designing and building , testing my own crossovers and speaker systems , including all the relevant test gear including high power speaker dummy loads . So , I should have an idea of what i am talking about :bigsmile:. By the way Monster cable and all the other thick cables have a high capacitance , amplifiers do not like that , and most become unstable :yay:. it can be seen easily on a oscilloscope :nerd:. about the best spkr cable one can have is low capacitance coax cable.And it is not expensive . You mentioned ignorant salesmen selling cable . It is frightening to see 'ignorance in action' :raped:.Kind regards Leonard . Alan .


----------



## terry j

lcaillo said:


> There is nothing criminal about selling overpriced products to people who believe that they actually hear a difference. Some of the claims made in advertising are certainly outrageous, .


But does the fact that people are willing to part with big bucks make it OK to use deceptive practices or statements??

IF it is true, then surely it is up to those 'who know better' to blow the whistle?

I understand why you made the post you did, (not that I thought Alans post was particularly nasty or inflammatory) but I raise the question of exactly where the boundary lies of what is acceptable commercial practice and what isn't.

As you say, a lot of the 'blurb' is hogwash, often couched in terms of 'quantum' (that one makes me laugh), but surely most of the people who write that rubbish KNOW it's rubbish? If so, then to my way of thinking it does make it deceitful and definitely bordering on fraudulent.

I mean it's ok to sell your product by pointing out it's pretty colour, or the sexy looking termination, but to claim it helps your stereo because it works to radio frequencies (just an example) surely is a con?

What responsibility do any of us have when we see false claims I wonder, personally saying nothing because 'it's ok for people to spend their money on what they want' makes me a little uneasy.


----------



## lcaillo

The point, guys, is not to justify deceptive practices and false claims. In general, I agree with most of what has been said here. The point is that when we use phrases like "these cables are being sold by lying greedy salesmen who most know that speaker and mains cables make absolutely no difference to the sound," we are departing from the kind of posting that represent what HTS is all about and what separates us from other forums. I have several problems with statements like this. 

First, it is factually incorrect to say that most salesmen know that they are selling products that don't make a difference. I have been in this business for nearly 3 decades and can assure you that the vast majority are simply repeating what they have been told and accept it as true or have "experienced" the differences just like their customers. There are certainly some who knowingly deceive, and many who would sell anything just for the sake of making a buck, but the vast majority likely do believe that what they are telling are truths or just don't know any better.

Second, to say that "speaker and mains cables make absolutely no difference to the sound," is factually incorrect and indicates a similar religious belief and bias that is just as bad as someone believing they hear a difference when there really is none. Actually it may be worse, because one is stating something as fact and one is relating personal experience, and both are likely wrong. Speaker cables CAN make a difference, albeit usually insignificant and it may not be "better". Alan says this himself in response above. Mains cables are, as I have said many times, hard to justify, but in either case, the word "absolutely" is completely unjustified and factually wrong. It indicates a lack of willingness to consider the whole picture and remain objective. A scientific and objective inquiry or discussion would ask why might they make a difference and look for the grains of truth that might be behind such outrageous claims.

Finally, this debate has become highly polarized and has become an attractor on many internet forums for individuals whose purpose is to demean, insult, and just plain argue. This is simply not what HTS is about and is not in the spirit of the kind of debate and discussion we choose to have here. Stick to facts, relate your experience, accept that others may have a different perspective that is just as valid as your own, and do not make sweeping statements that make invalid assumptions unjustifiably. Do not let debate deteriorate into vitriolic attacks on those with a different point of view or those who are ignorant of the facts. HTS is not AVS. Keep it that way and be mindful of the spirit of helpfulness and open debate that we have here.


----------



## terry j

lcaillo said:


> we are departing from the kind of posting that represent what HTS is all about and what separates us from other forums.


Gotta agree with you about the shack, it's a very nice place. I don't recall ever seeing anything nasty here.



> First, it is factually incorrect to say that most salesmen know that they are selling products that don't make a difference. I have been in this business for nearly 3 decades and can assure you that the vast majority are simply repeating what they have been told and accept it as true or have "experienced" the differences just like their customers.


On reflection, that is very true. I suppose that most of them would read the industry mags, and take it 'as given' of the (vast) sonic differences between cables etc.



> Second, to say that "speaker and mains cables make absolutely no difference to the sound," is factually incorrect and indicates a similar religious belief and bias that is just as bad as someone believing they hear a difference when there really is none. A scientific and objective inquiry or discussion would ask why might they make a difference and look for the grains of truth that might be behind such outrageous claims.


It is indeed a fact that speaker cables can make a difference, unfortunately any difference is usually to the negative, all related of course to easily measured parameters like L,R and C

I can only speak for myself, the biggest problem I have with discussions in this area are the usually over the top and outlandish claims made for any sonic differences, as you say, if they exist they are usually minor. The real problem (in my opinion) is that often people 'chase' cables to correct something that they are unhappy with in their system. That I'm sure is a sure fire recipe for failure. the trouble is the outlandish claims made in the industry bolster that false impression.

It is factors like resistance etc that give a scientific and plausible explanation for differences in speaker cables, I too scratch my head trying to imagine a rational reason for power cords to make a difference.

If what you said about salesmen wasn't true, it would be very hard for them to sleep at night. It must be worse being in the business and NOT believing that they make a worthwhile difference....what would you do if someone came in to buy cables, say no? That would certainly not be in the best interest of the business.

I wonder what are some other bits of 'received wisdom' held by salesmen in the industry?? hmmm

In any case, I applaud you having the best interests of the shack in mind, and back you to the hilt on it.


----------



## gsmollin

While I don't think power cables have much effect on sonic quality, I have softened my stance on the speaker cables. In particular, the "bi-wiring" of cables can have a demonstrable improvement on the distortion of a loudspeaker.

I haven't seen this explained properly in the press, but here is why its true: The speaker cable inserts an impedance in the signal path. This impedance allows harmonic distortion products in the woofer's current (primarily thirds) to modulate the voltage waveform applied to the tweeter. With short cables and a good amplifier, this effect is minimal because the distortion is attenuated by the amplifier's low output impedance. But with long cables, the cable impedance can allow the distortion from the woofer's current to be heard in the tweeter. With bi-wiring, the signal paths are separate back to the amplifier, so the low output impedance of the amp will control this. I think of it as poor-man's bi-amping.


----------



## lcaillo

Interesting ideas. Have they been measured or is this just speculation? Why don't you start a thread where we can discuss this specifically and see what others might know. I have always been very skeptical about bi-wiring. I wonder how much effect the very small difference in impedance would make.


----------



## brucek

> Have they been measured or is this just speculation?


I have to agree with gsmollin on this explanation, although I won't comment on its audibility. 

The statement of _harmonic distortion products in the woofer's current (primarily thirds) to modulate the voltage waveform applied to the tweeter_ might be questioned by some sharp cookie who would contend that superposition theorem would state otherwise, but that would only hold true for a linear system. Bi-wiring will only theoretically be a benefit when drivers distort and linearity is no longer maintained.

With sufficient voltage a driver can deviate from ideal linearity so the current in that connection between the low output impedance of the amplifier and woofer (in this case), will carry harmonic distortion components which can create intermodulation products. In a simple non-bi-wire situation, the tweeter driver terminals will see these distortion components through the speakers low impedance straps (when a single non bi-wire set of cables is used).

The theoretical advantage is now valid if you assume a set of bi-wire speaker cables has some finite impedance (obviously, the longer the cables, the more pronounced the effects will be). When bi-wire cables are used rather than single wires with straps, the distortion components (caused by the woofer driver) will have a lower impedance path to the amplifiers low output impedance rather than travel back and down the tweeters speaker cable. Yeah, you're right, it's a small advantage and you could argue that the tweeters crossover would help to reduce the problem, but I suppose you could argue that the harmonic and intermodulation products will be at a higher frequency and may pass through to the tweeter driver.

The entire advantage is gained by asking this question. From the perspective of the woofer driver terminals, which is the lower impedance route to the tweeters driver terminals? Is it a set of straps in a non bi-wire situation, or is it the route of a set of bi-wire cables that has a theoretical ideal voltage source in the path.......... :huh:

brucek


----------



## Sonnie

Leonard has a good idea... we need to start a new thread... something like: Does bi-wiring and/or bi-amping speakers make a difference?


----------



## Guest

JCD said:


> One thing to keep in mind if you do something like this is that you should not underestimate the power of suggestion. Even when you try to keep it in mind, the seed has already been planted.


Then have your stock and your other cord available. Have a friend make a change without you knowing which one several times and see if you accurately define each one. If not then keep the stock and move on. No need to justify, no need to explain, just sit back and listen to music as you like it.

I have tried many cords, cables, etc. I have found the cables I like best in my setup for my liking, in my budget. For Power cords, I have tried Stock, Volex, Signal Cable, and others costing up to 10 times more, before I made my final choice. 

Just remember, if you hear a difference, or think you hear a difference, and the item is within your budget, it really does not matter what others think about it. This hobby is all about what you like in the way of sound within your budget, let the budget be $100's or $100,000's.


----------



## gsmollin

brucek said:


> I have to agree with gsmollin on this explanation, although I won't comment on its audibility.
> 
> The statement of _harmonic distortion products in the woofer's current (primarily thirds) to modulate the voltage waveform applied to the tweeter_ might be questioned by some sharp cookie who would contend that superposition theorem would state otherwise, but that would only hold true for a linear system. Bi-wiring will only theoretically be a benefit when drivers distort and linearity is no longer maintained.
> 
> With sufficient voltage a driver can deviate from ideal linearity so the current in that connection between the low output impedance of the amplifier and woofer (in this case), will carry harmonic distortion components which can create intermodulation products. In a simple non-bi-wire situation, the tweeter driver terminals will see these distortion components through the speakers low impedance straps (when a single non bi-wire set of cables is used).
> 
> The theoretical advantage is now valid if you assume a set of bi-wire speaker cables has some finite impedance (obviously, the longer the cables, the more pronounced the effects will be). When bi-wire cables are used rather than single wires with straps, the distortion components (caused by the woofer driver) will have a lower impedance path to the amplifiers low output impedance rather than travel back and down the tweeters speaker cable. Yeah, you're right, it's a small advantage and you could argue that the tweeters crossover would help to reduce the problem, but I suppose you could argue that the harmonic and intermodulation products will be at a higher frequency and may pass through to the tweeter driver.
> 
> The entire advantage is gained by asking this question. From the perspective of the woofer driver terminals, which is the lower impedance route to the tweeters driver terminals? Is it a set of straps in a non bi-wire situation, or is it the route of a set of bi-wire cables that has a theoretical ideal voltage source in the path.......... :huh:
> 
> brucek



Supersposition only holds for a linear system, and of course I am talking about non-linearities. It is precisely the distortion products of the woofer that can be re-produced in the tweeter that I am talking about. I have been toying with the idea of measuring some of this at work. I have the equipment, but I've been pretty busy lately and the last time I had a piece of home equipment connected to the spectrum analyzer I think half the people in the lab had to come over to see what i was doing. All I would have to do is add low frequency tones from a loudspeaker to attract _everybody_.


----------



## Mike Cason

To share my experiences with cables and noises, here's my .02.

I used to hear an occasional hum from the kitchen flourescent light and the recessed cans in the living room when they were dimmed down and clicks in the surrounds and center back speakers when a switch was turned on elsewhere in the home. This was a couple of years ago and it didn't really bother me. 

I wanted to finally get rid of those nasty noises in the system because they don't belong there even though my system still sounded so good.

Below was my fix:

I've never had the extra money to spend on those fancy power cables, and actually never thought about it. As an electrician I do have the money to run clean circuits to my first main breaker box on the outside of the home. I've installed two dedicated circuits to a double duplex (2 gang) outlet box and have installed "Hospital grade" receptacles for better conductivitiy and higher quality connections inside the receptacles. They are designed for very sensitive medical equipment. Nothing else in the home is on the two circuits for my equipment. This cleaned up my noise problems. I've seen receptacles from our popular suppliers, not mentioning names, for $125 to $165 and that's overkill IMHO. They are probably a hospital grade receptacle in a different box.

I purchased Sonnie's Panamax 5100 and 5100 EX power and noise filter centers (along with his 6 LazyBoy recliners) and now have everything filtered, protected, and on dedicated circuits. Each Panamax unit is on it's own dedicated circuit and all the equipment and TV are ran through them.

I feel that the combination of these changes would be the most affordable and best route that you can go to give you a very clean signal if your power cords meet the manufacturer's minimum specs.

My dimmed recessed lights don't dim up and down when the sub's amps are hitting hard either!

My two 1450 amps came with 14 gauge cords, but I upgraded to some 12 gauge cords that my local electronics supply store just happened to have, so I bought them because one of the amps came without a cord from EBAY.

I'm not going to slam the high end cords either because I haven't used them, and my system does sound very clean indeed, especially with my brand new NAD T-785 receiver.

Have fun, :T
Mike


----------



## bobgpsr

^^^ oh so rational! :clap:


----------



## TheGovernment

I use DIY power cables I make with hospital grade plugs and the 12 gauge cord from HD. Only for the fact I can have a longer length to put them where I want. I've never known the sound to change in any way from cable to cable. 
I mostly just do it as a hobby. For me its fun and I use tech flex and shrink tube and really make them look sweet.

As far as bi-wiring goes, I've made some cables from wire $15 a foot and from wire $1 a foot. To me I find the termination has more to do with anything than the wire does. I also bi-wire to eliminate "jumpers" from the mix. I personally have noticed that removing the jumpers in a dual post setup did actually change the sound a bit (swapping back and forth in a blind test with friends) But as we went from wire to wire with he jumpers off? It was unanimous there wasn't much if any differences between any of them. But I sure do like to fiddle around with everything! Thats the best part of audio IMO.

Next up is pure silver interconnects! Make me a believer! hahaha


----------



## alan monro

Gooday Mark , Mains power cords make no difference whatever . If you want the best speaker cable use cheap coax . But , nobody can tell the difference between any speaker wire , that has been scientifically proven. except ,thick speaker wire can cause instability in some amps due to the extra capacitance and make them sound like an awful valve amp. kind regards . Alan .


----------



## lcaillo

alan monro said:


> Gooday Mark , Mains power cords make no difference whatever . If you want the best speaker cable use cheap coax . But , nobody can tell the difference between any speaker wire , that has been scientifically proven. except ,thick speaker wire can cause instability in some amps due to the extra capacitance and make them sound like an awful valve amp. kind regards . Alan .


While I agree with you, mostly, with respect to the audible effects of cables, it is incorrect to state that it has been scientifically proven that "nobody can tell the difference between any speaker wire." While most differences that are percieved are due to placebo and expectation bias, there are differences, and it "scientifically" it is impossible to provoe such a thing. You are welcome to state your opinion, but please keep the facts correct. This gets to be a very heated debate on many forums, so we try to keep fact and opinion clearly defined here. If you have scientific evidence, please post a link to the information. If you have an idea, or notion, or opinion, by all means state it. Even state it with conviction and intensity, but do not make statements of fact that are impossible to back up. We don't go there at Home Theater Shack.


----------



## bobgpsr

Scientific measurable differences in speaker cable can be attributed to resistance (larger AWG gauge improves this) and possibly capacitance. Normally inductance would not be a factor. Capacitance can be a factor if it is large enough to make the cable act as a low pass filter or to make the driving amplifier output stage unstable. But capacitance can be readily measured. A very very long run of normal zip cord (even if large gauge) might have enough capacitance to be a minor factor at the audio high end frequencies. For such needed long runs then using special lower capacitance cables might help -- but these do not need to be über expensive. Parts Express has reasonably priced low capacitance speaker cable for sale -- 50ft #10 AWG for ~ $54.


----------



## tonyvdb

alan monro said:


> If you want the best speaker cable use cheap coax .


Hmmm, that's an interesting statement.


----------



## alan monro

Thankyou for your comment .I thought I made it very clear that my opinion is true . All that I state is a scietificly proven fact . No more no less . I am not going any further with this as I dont want to start world war 3 . Have a good day , Alan .


----------



## Sonnie

The thing to do would be provide the scientific data or source. Comments like you made are what generally create wars, flames, bashing, etc... it is a very provoking statement, which is against our rules. 

We strive very hard to discuss things in a civil manner here at the Shack, so we have no problem discussing debatable subjects. If they get out of hand, we'll take care of it. If everyone stays civil, then there is no problem.

If you simply read somewhere that it has been scientifically proven, but no scientific data or source was named, then it tantamount to hearsay. If you have actually seen the scientific data, as much as this is debated, surely you will remember where you viewed it and can give the source. Personally I have no idea one way or another because I have never been provided with any credible evidence one way or another... nor have I ever tested any cables or wires.

Remember, just stating something does not make it fact. :T


----------



## robbo266317

There is a great page on cables on Rod Elliots site located here:-
http://sound.westhost.com/cables-p2.htm


----------



## Sonnie

Very interesting quote from AES executive editor...



> The scientific record is unclear. So far no research paper contending to prove or disprove the value of fancy wires has been accepted by the leading industry publication, The Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, said Patricia M. MacDonald, its executive editor. She said there were dozens of reasons a research paper might not meet her journal's standards.


----------



## lcaillo

A common misunderstanding of science is that it can prove something like this. The FACT is that it cannot prove that NOBODY can do or not do anything. What it can do is provide significant evidence that a typical group of people can tell a difference, or that the ability to detect differences was not found over many studies.

I have heard of a few studies that support the idea that most people cannot hear differences, but I have not read any scientific ones. I would love to see them, because it is my opinion that most cases can be explained away by expectation bias or placebo effects. There are differences in (speaker) cables, however, that some people, under some conditions, may be able to hear, I suppose, as there are measureable differences in capacitance and resistance that could conceivably affect the sound in extreme cases. Some vendors actually add (MIT) filters to "correct" the sound of their cables, or use geometries to affect these parameters (Kimber) to get their cables to sound different. 

I give the benefit of the doubt to the notion that some people may be able to hear differences, as there are some potential explanations for why they might, and I have not seen extensive study of the problem that actually looks for differences. I have a great deal more skepticism about the claims of the proponents of exotic power cables and interconnects, however, and believe that for most people, any potential differences are not meaningful if they exist at all.

The point here is that, as Sonnie says, saying it is so does not make it such, and unsubstantiated statements are the source of much vitriolic debate on the matter. I consider "drive-by" posting, (where someone jumps in, makes a baiting or controversial statement with no evidence to back it up), a practice that is dangerous to the credibility of a forum and leads to less than useful arguing. If you have evidence, then educate people and post it or post links to it. As someone with quite a bit of experience and education in experimental design and what science can and cannot do, I simply cannot stand by and allow someone to make statements that are incorrect about what science can do or has or has not done.


----------



## Bent

the aforementioned site http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/powera.jpg 
refers to








as a "power source".

It isn't.

What it is is a three phase "bulk oil circuit breaker", likely a 115KV unit.


----------



## Sonnie

I wonder if I could get one of those for my dedicated HT. onder: Seems like it would make a HUGE difference.


----------



## Bent

Sonnie, if you are referring to adding the bulk oil breakers to your HT (and I know the remark was made tongue-in-cheek), they are used primarily in the electrical utility industry for either protecting large power transformers, such as one of "mine" - a 'lil ol' 250 MVA e115kv to 230 kv export bank.








or transmission lines. (the big power lines your utility uses to get power to/from their terminal stations)


----------



## wes

alan monro said:


> Mark Don't wast your money on special cables, these cables are being sold by lying greedy salesmen who most know that speaker and mains cables make absolutely no difference to the sound . The government should send them to jail for 'deception' I dont know if in USA there is such a criminal charge??? Alan


I could not agree more but you know some people will sell ice to Eskimos!!


----------



## theborg

Hello all,

New member here. My first post might seem to go against the current here but I thought I'd put my two cents in. I'm all for objectively demonstrating things we see or hear. This belief though, sort of came off its foundations a few years ago when my dealer asked me to try a different power cord than the one that came with my components. I looked at him thinking he was a bit insulting and uninformed. Hmmm....hoping to prove to myself that this was pretty ridiculous, I trudged off home and plugged it in my preamp. When it 'did' seem sound a bit better, I shook it off as 'imaginary.' 

Well, since that day, I've tried cords from Tara Labs, Moray James, Audioquest, and Shunyata. I am currently an running a biamped system. In order to rule out imaginary results due to auditory memory (the time it takes to unplug a cord, plug in another one, and run and sit down waiting to hear results) I simply change one speaker cable, interconnect, or power cord on one channel (amp) at a time. I go to great lengths to make sure both speakers are exactly the same distance from the front wall and sidewalls, toe in is exactly the same, and the soundstage is as perfect as possible. First order reflections are also removed. If someone so much as bumps into a speaker, I know!

As much as I hate to admit to myself, every single power cord I've ever tried has sounded different than the rest. After determing that 'yes' there is a difference between channels, I then plug in both amps with the same higher grade power cord and listen again. With some, choirs and orchestras are more focused but their voices and instruments are still not quite in their own space. With other, more expensive cords, choirs become a group of individuals and orchestras have instruments in their own place. 

As skeptical as I started off, it is difficult to dismiss results when they are immediate and right in front of your face. No rushing around to change the cables before you forget what the sound was like before, just a simple question - Does the left and right channel sound the same? I do not know of any circumstance whereby a person can be tricked in thinking a certain part of a 'room' can sound different than the rest. If auditory memory was involved, yes it is possible. But when you close your eyes and really concentrate and realize that one side sound clear and the other somewhat smeared, you know something is happening.

No, I do not work for any audio or cable company. After many, many hours of listening, I've made a decision with one of those companies. I won't mention it now, unless asked. 

So, what started off as an absolute joke for me has turned out to be a very educational experience. I've tried to find out on my own why this difference occurs. The best I've come up with is that each company has a different method of shielding the cable. This would also be applicable to interconnects. As for speaker cables, there is also a definite difference between different designs and companies. As for taking a double-blind test to see if I could tell which was which after ten minutes, I'm not sure. For my own purposes, the immediate left-right testing works very well. Would I like to see a graphical representation of how this is possible? Absolutely! For now though, listening is good enough for me. 

I did these tests on a sytem comprised of an Anthem D2 pre/pro, dual Anthem P2 amps, Maggie MG3.6s, and an Arcam CD36. I've recently moved up to Sonus Faber Guarneri Mementos, and I'm expecting delivery of two Bryston 28B SST2 amps either tomorrow or Friday. The P2s can't be bridged! I will certainly try out the stock versus higher end cords when everything is set up. 

Hope this doesn't rattle too many people's cages, but this is one skeptic who learned otherwise. I'm not a tweak craver, but cables, IMO, do change the sound. I don't expect a wire to magically make sound 'better.' That would be plain silly. Having a better designed cable though, seems to let your system live up to a greater potential.

Thanks for any comments (or darts!).


----------



## lcaillo

I hope we will not see any darts. That is not the way we play here. 

I will point out, however, that asking whether the two channels sound different seems to be a rather poor test in a stereo system. You are using sources that by their nature have differences, Being able to isolate the variable of differences in the cables from all the other possible variables does provide any results that convince me of very much. 

Why not do a simple blind test. Have someone switch the various cables without identifying whether or which ones were switched and see if the differences that you hear are identifyable and consistent WITHOUT prior knowledge?

I have no doubt that you and many others believe that there are differences that they are hearing. I also know that expectation bias can affect anyone's perception far more than most of these people realize. I do not reject that there might be subtle differences that might be produced by various cabling changes, but I do try to look for reasons that might explain their existence. In the case of power cables, those are hard to imagine. I have also seen not a single test to demonstrate that such diferences exist. Given the nature of power circuits, differences should be easy to identify and should not require any expensive test gear.

It is not necessary to throw darts, flames, nor take any other vitriolic tact to point out that experience is a subjective matter and influenced by many variables. Isolating those variables or making objective measures of differences in this case would be very simple. It just has not been done to the satisfaction of most. OTOH, if you do believe that you hear a difference and you enjoy the system more, and the cost is within your means, then there is no reason not to go with your experience and do what you enjoy. There is also nothing wrong with sharing that experience here. We can discuss this or any other matter without attacks or accusations.


----------



## lcaillo

wes said:


> I could not agree more but you know some people will sell ice to Eskimos!!


I can imagine reasons that Eskimos might want to buy ice. Alan monro's post is not the kind of comment that leads to civil discussion of the matter, nor is yours. Why not try to figure out why someone might sell Eskimos ice or why the sellers and the buyers might believe it to be of value rather than assuming that the sellers are unethical and the buyers are fools? 

Contribute, don't throw jabs.


----------



## Sonnie

lcaillo said:


> Why not do a simple blind test. Have someone switch the various cables without identifying whether or which ones were switched and see if the differences that you hear are identifyable and consistent WITHOUT prior knowledge?


I believe this is the only way to make an accurate determination. Any other method is flawed in many ways and cannot be relied upon.

Ultimately I cannot imagine how a power cord can improve the sound.

I have spoken with the scientist that work at Velodyne and they are quick to state there is no power cord that will improve the sound of their subs and thus why they do not include a heavy duty power cord with their subs. It is a rather cheesy looking power cord if you ask me. Are they the end all of knowledge... of course not, but Velodyne goes to great... no... gargantuan lengths to develop their subwoofers... even so far as to hire scientists as development techs. Just look at the complexity of their designs. If a higher grade/quality power cord improved on the sound, it would be a very minor cost for them in comparison to what they spend otherwise. There would be no reason for them NOT to include it with their subs if it really improved the sound. 

My opinion (and yes, everyone has one) is that these expensive high end power cords are nothing short of snake oil. :huh:


----------



## wes

Sonnie said:


> I believe this is the only way to make an accurate determination. Any other method is flawed in many ways and cannot be relied upon.
> 
> Ultimately I cannot imagine how a power cord can improve the sound.
> 
> I have spoken with the scientist that work at Velodyne and they are quick to state there is no power cord that will improve the sound of their subs and thus why they do not include a heavy duty power cord with their subs. It is a rather cheesy looking power cord if you ask me. Are they the end all of knowledge... of course not, but Velodyne goes to great... no... gargantuan lengths to develop their subwoofers... even so far as to hire scientists as development techs. Just look at the complexity of their designs. If a higher grade/quality power cord improved on the sound, it would be a very minor cost for them in comparison to what they spend otherwise. There would be no reason for them NOT to include it with their subs if it really improved the sound.
> 
> My opinion (and yes, everyone has one) is that these expensive high end power cords are nothing short of snake oil. :huh:


Yes but it needs to be snug


----------



## Sonnie

lol... you know that was an issue with their power cords.


----------



## brucek

theborg said:


> and I'm expecting delivery of two Bryston 28B SST2 amps either tomorrow or Friday. The P2s can't be bridged! I will certainly try out the stock versus higher end cords when everything is set up.


While doing so, note that Bryston goes to great lengths to get the very best sound they can out of those (~$16,000/pair) amplifiers. Take a look at their rather pedestrian power cords that they come with, and ask yourself why Bryston wouldn't spend a few extra dollars and include an exotic cord if it actually would make a difference in the sound of their amp.

brucek


----------



## Sonnie

$16,000/pair :thud:


----------



## wes

The power cord on Classé Audio are also very mundane, you would think they would at least include better constructed cord so they don't wiggle.

The worst was the one on the Oppo BDP-83 it did not even stay in. I like the new Middle Atlantic cords as they have many different lenghts are priced reasonably well and decent quality


----------



## JCD

While I don't share theborg's opinion regarding power cords, I'm glad that he took the time to test them in his system (and a mighty fine system at that!) before forming his opinion. Far too many "drink the kool-aid" without testing these beliefs. Frankly, he's done more to prove his opinion that I have, but in the limited testing I've done, I haven't heard the differences he has. Of course, an arguement could be stated that I have that "bias" think affecting my judgement as well. To some extent, I think I'd need someone prove in a real double blind study that they were able to identify the special power cord, interconnect, cable, etc before I'd buy in to the upgraded fidelity.


----------



## lcaillo

Exactly, JCD. Many "objectivists" don't realize that they are operating on faith as much as the other side, as they perceive it. The fact is that all of us are affected by the bias of our prior experience as well as our expectations for an outcome, either sub-conscious or conscious. Scientific research is not immune, though some would argue otherwise. All experimenters are affected by bias in the questions that they ask, how they pose the question, the variables that they choose to control or not, and the interpretation of the data. 

Where we do not want threads like this to go is into the abyss of accusation and gigging those who seem to differ in perspective. It should include discussion that helps everyone to understand better what is perceived and why, as well as what is physically occurring and its relation to the perception.


----------



## theborg

Hello again,

Many thanks to those who are responding. I realize this is a touchy subject indeed. It is really a breath of fresh air to post in a moderated forum such as this where people can freely state opinions gained by experience. 

I just came back from a seminar in rainy Winnipeg, Manitoba held by a rep from Sim Audio. He spoke for about an hour about his line of products and along the way he mentioned power cords. YES! He says Sim makes their own in-house power cords to do critical listening tests because they know the sounds of different configurations of wires and can keep that aspect constant. Those cords are not available to the public, and by the sound of it, they never will be. When asked by another person why they include ordinary Beldin power cords with their products, even the might W8 amp, he replied that they leave it to the purchaser to select a power cord that will suit their individual taste and system. From their point of view, power cords are meant to be selected by the consumer, not determined by them. From a price point, it would not be wise to include a particular comapny's expensive power cord, only to possibly have it replaced by another at a later date.

After the seminar, I asked if his company had done electronic testing at the amp ends to see what a higher end power cord does for a system?' He responded that yes, they had. Cords do change important things like distortion, among others. I was surprised at his response as his company does not market power cords or have any financial interest in promoting the sale of power cords. 

When I mentioned that I have also read that all interconnects sound the same - The Ten Biggest Lies of Audio -, he just laughed. Not much to talk about there.

As for the blind tests, I've had friends over who had no idea of what power cords were all about. To them they look like vacuum cleaner hoses. I would let them change one side when I was out of the room and have me return, eyes closed. They never tricked me. When they would sit in the sweet spot, they would also mention that one side sounded clearer. And this, I would say, came from guys whose greatest audio expericnce was probably listening to background music on an introductory compact system plunked on a shelf on top of the television. 

So, good points on both sides here. I hope that all those who respond with opinions either way have tried power cords and have listened for any differences. Most of those who I've corresponded with in other forums have not. It is difficult to answer the question if power cords sound different if you haven't actually listened to one. I even asked Peter from The Audio Critic to describe the evidence or testing that he had done that helped him form his opinion that power cords do absolutely nothing to change the sound of an audio system. If anyone had the equipment and knowledge to prove a point, I thought he would. He write up is actually quite scathing in the Ten Biggest Lies in Audio. He responded that he has never done any technical testing, nor has he ever listened to a higher end power cord. He simply believes it is not possible. Case closed.

Today, I asked Grant of Shunyata if his company had done their own electronic testing to determine of anything along the line is influenced by a higher end power cord. He said that yes they have, and there is are definite changes in inductance, impedance, and resistance. 

I hope I am not over-stepping my bounds here by sharing private conversations, but I feel it is necessary in order to answer some important questions - Why would a high end company only include ordinary power cords with components? and Does the introduction of a high end power cord quantifiably change the nature of the electric current and the resulting sound? As I am not capable of doing any electronic testing of my own, I must consult those who are. 

No 28Bs yet ;(

Thanks,
Gordon


----------



## tonyvdb

Given the real question is still "Do High End Power Cables Make a Difference" It may need to be reworded to "Do Expensive cables make a difference" The answer to that again will fill pages of posts but in reality I could make a power cord out of 12awg wire that would do the same thing as any High end cord. The real truth is that sure, if your running an amp that requires a solid 15 amp draw with a power cord that is only made of 16awg wire of course its going to cause distortion among other issues. I know this is my personal opinion but it comes with allot of years working with A/V equipment. Its not rocket science its common sense.


----------



## Sonnie

Good point Tony. 

Is doesn't make sense that a power cord can improve on the sound as long as the power cord you have is sufficient enough to handle what is in the wall back to the breaker panel. Referring to the old saying... it will only be as good as your weakest link, which is probably that 12-2 in your wall.

Here is an interesting ABX blind test on high end power cords conducted by Secrets (Home Theater and Hi Fi). You can read it for yourself, but here is the conclusion:


> To many in the engineering community, blind ABX is an accepted experimental design. Using the blind ABX protocol, we failed to hear any differences between an assortment of generic power cords and Nordost Valhalla. Therefore, we cannot conclude that different power cords produce a difference using the blind ABX protocol. However, we also cannot conclude that there are no differences. We simply failed to prove that differences can be detected to a statistically significant degree using a blind ABX protocol.


----------



## Sonnie

I forgot about Mavericks blind test ... he stated he could have "SWORN" he heard differences, but it ended up being the same power cord.


atledreier said:


> We did this a while back, when I worked in a hifi store.
> 
> We set up a Lyngdorf TDAI2200+ on set of B&W 801 speakers. We did this because the TDAI is reportedly very sensitive to power cords, and the B&W is the obvious monitor choice, seeing that alot of high-end studios use these. We also used a Lyngdorf CD-1 as a transport.
> 
> The room itself is one of the best listening rooms for teh 801s. We've had representatives from B&W over and they said it's one of the best rooms outside of their dedicated studios they've heard. The room is large and relatively well damped, and at night after closing it's very quiet.
> 
> We had a very persistend customer who was burning for the PC issue, so we had him over with a selection of power cords (3 or 4, I can't remember). We also used the ones that came with the equipment, along with the thinnest, cheapest ones we could find.
> 
> We hid the equipment behind a sheet of fabrick, and made sure we switched equipment off and unplugged the cables, even if we just reinserted the same cable. The store is in a shopping center, so we suspected quite dirty power, so we also tried a Monster powercenter to filter the incoming power.
> 
> I couldn't find the spreadsheet right now, but the results were such that we might as well have used a random number generator. Many times I could have SWORN I heard huge differences, and it turned out to be the same cable I had just heard. One cable I was sure were alot better than the others turned out to be the cheapest thin cable. It was quite enlightening, actually, and the customer even had to concede to the facts that he couldn't pick either one of the cables in a truly blind test.
> 
> I'm not saying YOU cannot hear a difference in power cables, but I can't, and neither could the 10 or so hifi enthusiasts present at this blind test.


----------



## brucek

> No 28Bs yet


He Gordon, I'm sure you'll enjoy those Bryston amps. I have three Bryston amps and a Bryston processor myself.

I do agree there are positive changes that can be realized with various interconnects but I'm convinced the power cord cannot help out as long as the cord is ample from the supplier of your equipment.

I tend to agree with Brystons position on this where in this newsletter they say:

*In sum, it is certainly possible for a six-foot power cord to have an affect on the sound. It is not possible, unfortunately, for this change to be an improvement, at least in connection with Bryston products. *

Pretty much sums up my feelings about power cords...

brucek


----------



## theborg

Brucek,

I do understand your point. An improvement should not be possible. I'm trying not to sway anyone's opinion here, just relay what I have found. 

On the other hand, I wonder why there are all the accolades on the Shunyata website. There seem to be some pretty big names there. 

I will do my usual fidgeting when the amps come and will let people here know what my findings were. If I don't find any positive difference, you'll see two cords on Audiogon. I'm currently using dual V-Rays for filtering but I'm not sure if running the amps through the V-Rays is a good idea. I was planning to have each amp on a different one, certainly not on the same one. The V-Ray is designed not to be current limiting, but I'm not sure about this one. Dedicated outlets may be in order. Are you using any line filtering for your Bryston amps? Even Grant Samuelson, when he was in Winnipeg a while back, suggested to just plug any amp into the wall. 

Thanks,
Gordon0

Sonnie, that s a great smiley! That's pretty much what I did when I first heard the price. http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/images/smilies/rubeyes.gif
:rubeyes:


----------



## brucek

> Are you using any line filtering for your Bryston amps?


Yeah, Bryston suggests plugging them directly into the wall, but I built my own power outlet box to accommodate all the plugs.

I installed two 20 amp dedicated circuits to my equipment and used high grade receptacles for termination. This offers the lowest impedance path back to the service panel, necessary for high current surges that the amps may need. I also installed a whole house surge protector at my service panel.

brucek


----------



## Mike Cason

Brucek,

Good choice.....I've done the same thing.....I installed hospital grade receptacles required for the sensitive hospital equipment and have Sonnie's two Panamax 5100 & EX protection gear. 

Each one is on its own dedicated circuit to the panel 25 ft. away.

I use one receptacle and the Panamax 5100 for my two pro-amps that I use for the subs, and the other circuit and the 5100EX for the rest of the gear. I'm expecting my new Denon AVR 5308CI(A) next Thursday and should be well protected.

You almost can't have too much protection. :spend:


----------



## Sonnie

The only thing about those hospital grade receptacles is they are orange. With this Halloween decor I might get scared that Michael is in the room. :yikes:


----------



## brucek

> The only thing about those hospital grade receptacles is they are orange.


There really is no reason to use hospital grade receptacles (unless you like the color orange), as high grade Hubbel receptacles (white or ivory) are the same without the isolated ground (that you don't use)....


brucek


----------



## Mike Cason

SONNIE~~~~~ That's a beautiful system!!!! :yikes: It's sure not the same HT room I was in a few months back!!! 

Congratulations are certainly in order here! :T 

You deserve the best as you deliver the best here at the Shack! Thanks for running such a great forum!

Mike


----------



## Sonnie

I don't think they had those at Lowe's when I was buying. :huh:


----------



## Mike Cason

brucek said:


> There really is no reason to use hospital grade receptacles (unless you like the color orange), as high grade Hubbel receptacles (white or ivory) are the same without the isolated ground (that you don't use)....
> 
> 
> brucek


The orange ones are isolated ground receptacles. Because I'm an electrician I just happen to have the white Arow Hart 20 amp AH8300W NEMA 5 duplex receptacles rated for hospital use in stock. They have a green dot on the lower left of the receptacle. The contacts and yolk are made out of a different metal. I had 'em so I used 'em. I probably don't notice any difference because I have Sonnie's old Panamax units.

Material Specifications 
Face Material: Nylon 
Body Material: Nylon 
Line Contacts: Nickel-Plated Brass Triple-Wipe .031 Thick 
Terminal Screws: Nickel-Plated Brass 10-32 
Grounding Screw: Nickel-Plated Brass 8-32 
Yoke: Nickel-Plated Brass 
Clamp Nuts: Nickel-Plated Brass 
Ground Clips: Nickel-Plated Brass


----------



## brucek

> The orange ones are isolated ground receptacles.


Yeah, that was my point. The isolated ground system is not generally used in homes. As you know, the safety and mechanical ground are serviced by the single grounded bare third wire in the house wiring (as they don't have conduit grounding systems). This safety ground is jumpered between the box and the ground screw on the receptacle. So, I just don't see any benefit to a hospital receptacle.

brucek


----------



## Mike Cason

brucek said:


> Yeah, that was my point. The isolated ground system is not generally used in homes. As you know, the safety and mechanical ground are serviced by the single grounded bare third wire in the house wiring (as they don't have conduit grounding systems). This safety ground is jumpered between the box and the ground screw on the receptacle. So, I just don't see any benefit to a hospital receptacle.
> 
> brucek


I agree Brucek. I used them because I had them in stock. The line contacts are Nickel-Plated Brass Triple-Wipe .031 thick and may afford a better connection. No big deal...


----------



## Jason_Nolan

Interesting, this is what I always thought from when I was into car audio as a teenager. I just figured I didn't know the electronic side enough to argue with people who sold expensive cables, but the article makes sense. Snake oil.


----------



## chadnliz

Yes power cables can and do at times make a difference especially when you have a system capable of extracting the finer detail of the signal.


----------



## recruit

chadnliz said:


> Yes power cables can and do at times make a difference especially when you have a system capable of extracting the finer detail of the signal.


This is a debate/argument that can go round and round in circles, I have after market power cables but purely for there shielding capabilities rather than any SQ improvements.


----------



## lcaillo

I would love to hear a reasonable explanation of why power cables can make a differnce in the sound, beyond filtering some noise, perhaps. I have never seen any evidence to support any known nor reasonably postulated effect that could account for any improvement. Even the shielding explanation has not been demonstrated in anything that I have seen.


----------



## robbo266317

lcaillo said:


> I would love to hear a reasonable explanation of why power cables can make a differnce in the sound, beyond filtering some noise, perhaps. I have never seen any evidence to support any known nor reasonably postulated effect that could account for any improvement. Even the shielding explanation has not been demonstrated in anything that I have seen.


Retailers will perpetuate this myth forever. Until someone does a double blind test with 3 or more cables _and_ the tests show a repeatable preference for one of them. *Then this myth is busted.*


----------



## chadnliz

lcaillo said:


> I would love to hear a reasonable explanation of why power cables can make a differnce in the sound, beyond filtering some noise, perhaps. I have never seen any evidence to support any known nor reasonably postulated effect that could account for any improvement. Even the shielding explanation has not been demonstrated in anything that I have seen.


You just answered your own question, they can shield the signal and filter noise, that is a benefit many systems need so they have a verifiable value in system that can resolve these differences.


----------



## recruit

chadnliz said:


> You just answered your own question, they can shield the signal and filter noise, that is a benefit many systems need so they have a verifiable value in system that can resolve these differences.


Good shielding certainly helps if you have so many cables close together or a spaghetti junction mess like mine :sweat:


----------



## robbo266317

chadnliz said:


> You just answered your own question, they can shield the signal and filter noise, that is a benefit many systems need so they have a verifiable value in system that can resolve these differences.





> they can shield the signal and filter noise


Are you talking about the 110 Volt "signal" (or in my case the 240 Volts)? 

What equipment are you talking about specifically? 
If you tell me what specific models you have tested and the brand of cables you have used we can try to identify why these sound better to you.


----------



## lcaillo

chadnliz said:


> You just answered your own question, they can shield the signal and filter noise, that is a benefit many systems need so they have a verifiable value in system that can resolve these differences.



I have not seen evidence that supports the assumption that shielding power cables has a significant impact on sound. It may be a reasonble notion to investigate, but I have not seen such an investigation nor any simulation of the effect. My experience is that line noise is very hard, if not impossible to detect in the post power supply filtered areas of most devices. I have looked. While trying to determine whether line conditioners have any benefit, I also looked at shielding and the effect on noise. I could not find any reason to believe that power line noise was picked up in power cables, even very long cheap ones, nor passed through most power supply filtering.

Ground loops are a far more likely source of low level noise that many report as dimished with line conditioners and power cables, but shielding is unlikely to account for this.

Unlike many other skeptics on the audible efficacy of power cable upgrades, I do not deny that any effect exists. I do acknowledge that some effect is being perceived. It is clear that placebo and expectation bias affect our perception. I do not assume that this is the whole story nor will I ridicule those who claim to hear what others do not. I do try to find explanations for what is percieved, and so far I have not been able to find such an explanation for most of what is claimed for power cable upgrades. Certainly it makes sense to have a power cable that is well built, larger than may be needed, and well shielded to assure that no current limitations, connective problems, nor noise are entering the system at this point, but there are far larger concerns, IMO. And placebo and expectation effects are very well understood to affect us all. It seems unlikely, based upon what I know and have been able to discover, that there is much to most of the claims of benefits from outrageously expensive power cable ugrades.


----------



## Jason_Nolan

I think it's funny that real scientist and electrical engineers laugh at people who buy this stuff for such outlandish prices, yet people still do.

There are many discussions about this and speaker cables in the engineering forum, CR4. None of the EE's are buying into, because none of them are employed by the marketers who are selling it.

There is an article out there where someone has put up a million dollars to prove that there is a 7500 cable that is better than an 80 cable. All someone has to do is provide evidence and collect the check, but that's yet to happen. 

This is especially true of speaker cables. I've heard that you don't need anything more fancy than lamp cord from Ace hardware. 

Big expensive cables are like fine wine, most of it doesn't taste any better than the walmart brand but you can brag about the ultra rare 1942 bottle you're drinking to your friends. 

I'll have to admit they look cool, but I'd rather spend my money where it counts, on speakers for sound or room treatment.


----------



## Moonfly

This one has and will be debated till the end of time. I upgraded one of my power cables from stock (from recruit IIRC?) to a higher quality one and didnt notice a massive difference, but then I only used it on my Onkyo AVR.

I'm with Jason on this one.

There are those who say that the last meter of cable is only a small part of the chain, and it more depends on the cabling in your home. If your cabling in your home is good, modern, give a good steady constant supply of clean power, then the power chord for your amp probably wont make that much difference, and vice versa.

Ive yet to be convinced super expensive cables are going to be a better investment than spending the same on an upgrade somewhere in the line, but by the same token, I wont use a cable that is obviously trash. Anyway, decent quality cables look better .

Personally I would always use decent cables, but wont go daft.


----------



## robbo266317

Jason_Nolan said:


> Big expensive cables are like fine wine, most of it doesn't taste any better than the walmart brand but you can brag about the ultra rare 1942 bottle you're drinking to your friends.


Yep, save your money and buy some nice wine to enjoy with your music. :bigsmile:


----------



## Jason_Nolan

I've heard the profit made from these cables is astronomical. It's mostly what high end shops make the best money selling because the cables themselves really don't cost much to make.

I would say it will always be debated because people fall for marketing, but from an engineering stand point, I'd say the case is closed.

I guess if I'd spent multi-thousands on cabling, I'd subjectively hear a difference too! Sadly though, there is no data to show an improvement.

I'm with you though, I'm not using lamp cord because my wires show and it would look horrible. Just over rock bottom prices is fine though, I wouldn't spend more.

I would have loved to be the one to perpetuate this ideal cable though, somebody is getting paid well. Good for them, bad for consumers.


----------



## Jason_Nolan

I've seen polls asked on this site, and maybe there is one for this, but I'd be interested to hear what percentage of people on here think that these high dollar cables are better.

10% maybe?


----------



## tonyvdb

Jason_Nolan said:


> I've seen polls asked on this site, and maybe there is one for this, but I'd be interested to hear what percentage of people on here think that these high dollar cables are better.
> 
> 10% maybe?


probably less, if your well versed in the "snake oil" fables you would not buy into this. Its the people who walk in off the street with there wallets fat with money who dont care if there cable costs as much as a average BluRay player.


----------



## Jason_Nolan

People with no Tech backround tend to read the mags that push these cables, pretty hard, and buy into, which is why I said 10%. Of course if you don't know better you'd assume they're right, it's no fault of the consumer.

Of course the $7500 Mach one million cable sounds warmer and the image is pushed slightly back with the liquid smooth vocals ever so slightly forward in the stage, lol. You didn't know that?


----------



## tonyvdb

:cha-ching:


----------



## Moonfly

Jason_Nolan said:


> Of course the $7500 Mach one million cable sounds warmer and the image is pushed slightly back with the liquid smooth vocals ever so slightly forward in the stage, lol. You didn't know that?


I really didnt know that :blink: :rofl:


----------



## lcaillo

Jason_Nolan said:


> I think it's funny that real scientist and electrical engineers laugh at people who buy this stuff for such outlandish prices, yet people still do.
> 
> There are many discussions about this and speaker cables in the engineering forum, CR4. None of the EE's are buying into, because none of them are employed by the marketers who are selling it.
> 
> There is an article out there where someone has put up a million dollars to prove that there is a 7500 cable that is better than an 80 cable. All someone has to do is provide evidence and collect the check, but that's yet to happen.
> 
> This is especially true of speaker cables. I've heard that you don't need anything more fancy than lamp cord from Ace hardware.
> 
> Big expensive cables are like fine wine, most of it doesn't taste any better than the walmart brand but you can brag about the ultra rare 1942 bottle you're drinking to your friends.
> 
> I'll have to admit they look cool, but I'd rather spend my money where it counts, on speakers for sound or room treatment.


Again, this type of bluster gets us nowhere. The real questions that REAL scientists should be asking are related to why people perceive what they do, and where the differences are that do exist. Certainly much of what is marketed will turn out to be myth, but there are also very likely some conditions where, for instance, additional filtering or shielding may be of benefit. A real scientist explores what he does not know and does not ridicule those who believe in things that he does not. A real engineer looks for the reasons behind things and how to improve on what we use and does not simply scoff at what he does not know.

We don't know what we don't know. When we ridicule those who experience things differently than we do we are doing everyone, including ourselves, a diservice. I suggest we keep the discussion on the why and the research that has been done, and stop the references to snake oil and what other people should believe. I find the derision of high end manufacturers and audiophiles who support them rather curious, since that part of the market makes it possible for much of the business to proceed, and those who are willing to push the edges of performance out farther bendfit all of us, even if we do not buy their products.


----------



## robbo266317

lcaillo said:


> Again, this type of bluster gets us nowhere. The real questions that REAL scientists should be asking are related to why people perceive what they do, and where the differences are that do exist. Certainly much of what is marketed will turn out to be myth, but there are also very likely some conditions where, for instance, additional filtering or shielding may be of benefit. A real scientist explores what he does not know and does not ridicule those who believe in things that he does not. A real engineer looks for the reasons behind things and how to improve on what we use and does not simply scoff at what he does not know.


My point exactly! 

Every time this sort of discussion comes up I ask for specific instances where they have perceived a difference and on no occasion has anyone offered what equipment benefited. :rolleyesno:

Until such time as anyone gives brand names and models that perform better, so we can do double blind tests, then I personally will continue to label it as snake oil! :boxer:


----------



## lcaillo

The specific brands seem less important to me than the conditions of the testing and the environment. It seems likely that with differing noise on the power line and from EMI, the results would vary more than between brands and models. I just don't see what is so hard about measuring these effects. A decent oscilloscope with a differential probe should be able to show anything far beyond the audible range. 

Personally, I think that the term "snake oil" has outlived its usefulness and we need to stick to discussing the facts that make us believe that specific claims are such. The term might easily be taken as pejorative by many. The fact is that many people do invest in products that most of us believe have no basis in science nor any technological benefit. We can make those points in a more focused manner, sticking to the reasoning behind our position rather than resorting to that kind of general terminology.


----------



## chadnliz

Call me crazy but from what I can tell a majority of those who scoff at others for the use of cables are in general the same folks who dont have (or likely ever even experienced) gear capable of detecting small details these cable can and often do show. Bottom line is if you have mass market or more budget leaning gear it isnt going to resolve these details, this isnt a knock at that gear or those who use it, just plain fact as I see it. Also untill you have done everything else to make your room and gear operate its best these tweaks and investments are premature.
On the system I put together (Audio Research Ref 3 pre, Musical Surroundings Aesthetix Atlas amp, Esoteric DV60, VPI ScoutMaster with Benz Ref 3 MC cart and Musical Surroundings NOVA Phonomena stage a Shunyata Hydra 4 power supply was of benefit aswell as AudioQuest Mont Blanc speaker cables and YIQ3 power cables. Were the differences large? NO but they did squeeze out some better performance that is questionable as far as premium paid but it was in the end worth it. I did hear a blacker deeper background, more clarity in the upper frequency and more mid bass detail, lower bass was not affected one way or the other and my gut tells me some sludge or interference was removed allowing smaller details to be unveiled. I have heard bigger changes in tube rolling so again this is small but sometimes the last 5-10% of system gains are what we are trying to achieve. This was after isolation of gear, dedicated lines installed, room treatments (corners, reflections, bass traps) were already addressed.
Even if I simply "think" it sounds better then that I suppose is good enough for me but IMO its not imagination and is very small but very real improvement. There is also the need to understand that some products are infact silly, pebbles and clocks in my room are never going to happen and some cables have not lived up to the hype but its not to say none are worth it or have a apparent value as some continue to suggest.


----------



## lcaillo

We can talk about resolution all day long, but until you define what you are trying to resolve and test for that, and define the limits of audibility and compare that to differences measured, you really cannot conclude much of anything.

You make a lot of assumptions about what you are perceiving and the reason that you "hear" what you believe you hear. There has been research on audible differences between "tweaks" and virtually none of it supports the commonly accepted notions that lead many to buy expensive products. There has been substantial work in the area of perception and the highly variable responses that humans have to stimuli, and it is well understood that if you start with prior knowledge that supports these differences, you are very likely to hear them and to justify them as real. They are in fact real perceptual effects. They may not be real in the audio domain, however. People really believe that they hear things that they don't all the time. This has been demonstrated in many forms of perceptual research with orders of magnitude more evidence than that supporting the "tweaks" that audiophiles believe help the sound of their systems.

That said, it is just as much a belief based argument to say that all differences are the result of placebo and expectation bias when the reseach on the matter has focused mostly on proving the fact that there are no differences. When a researcher expects to find no support for an effect, it is easy to do so. It is much harder to isolate the variables in a complex system to determine where effects might be actually occuring. The naysayers are just as wrong in many cases as the "golden ears" and audiophiles that they criticize.

Again, it is the why that is the interesting question. If one does hear a difference in a power cable, why is that. Is it just because he believes that there is a difference or is there some severe noise or ground loop in the system that is mediated by one cable and not another? Based upon my experience trying to measure these things, a pretty good knowledge of the electrical theory and practice involved, as well as quite a bit of study in human perception, I suspect the former in most cases. I am not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater like both sides seem to be happy to do. There may be something to learn here if we looked harder. It does seem odd that the makers of these cables have rarely, if ever, made attempts to document the effects with any but subjective interpretations. If we really looked for the places that they do make a difference, it seems very likely that many of the purchases have no more effect than on the belief of the user. Even so, if one believes his system sounds better, that may be worth paying for. People invest in belief and in faith in many ways that are valuable to the individual in ways that are impossible to quantify.


----------



## Jason_Nolan

I like the argument some make about those that "cannot afford" this gear that gives spectacular results so good that cables became apparent only with this high dollar super gear.

I agree Icaillo that the cables can and should be measured and data provided to sell it. It never is though.

Making the argument that people are too poor to be able to reap the benefits of these cables is riduculous.

That's like saying people that can hear the difference in the cables have more money than sense since they cannot understand physics and do not take the time to question why these cables benefit them... anyway.

Looking at the broad scope of things as Icaillo does, I'd say it's interesting why people think they can hear a difference.

I think the technical side of things are proven and the case is closed though if you're argueing it from that perspective.


----------



## gsmollin

I propose that the line cable myth is perpetuated by internet forums, to boost their hit ratios, and improve their advertising revenues.  Seriously, folks, I got an email to come back and post on this thread. Well, here I am, and this stuff is going on all over the internet. There is a similar thread over at the "science" forum that has topped 1500 posts, last time I checked, and the posters are arguing over the meaning of the word "is", or some such . So we see that the most pointless threads get the most hits. Check out a thread about speaker crossovers, or something else that really does make a difference, and it died months or years ago. But these power cable threads just refuse to die. There is always some troll adding inflamatory comments that keep it going; of course nobody here would stoop to that.

Well, since I returned I may as well add my opinion. Here it is: Like most equipment manufacturers, I know that line cords mean nothing to sound quality. They do have a minimal effect on power supply performance in an amplifier, but you won't hear that in the speakers. If you could hear anything from the power supply, it would be rectified hum, and you would return your amplifier for service. Power supply signals have been attenuated to an astonishing degree, and while they can be measured, they can't be heard unless there is a specific problem.

Now I would like to address the last defense of expensive power cords, they one that asserts that they can shield noise. This is stated without any explanation over what kind of noise, and where it is coming from or going to. If that's the level of understanding, then the power cord will be irrelevant in this respect as well. Powerline conducted emissions (noise) do exist, but to control them we would need a carefully planned and executed EMI/EMC plan, and these are rarely seen, except in pro equipment. As evidence, I submit that most consumer equipment lacks even the third wire ground connection. So if you have a real EMI problem your best approach is to find the noise source and eliminate it at the source. Plugging in a shielded line cord will not stop the noise. , I wish it were that easy!


----------



## Anthony

One thing I will give to the high end power cables: they usually have better connectors than the cheaper ones. I would be willing to concede that the larger contact area at the device and plug itself contributes more to any effect. Small contact area can cause arcing, corrosion, and voltage loss at the connection.

I am an engineer and do a lot of electrical and data connections on our systems integration projects (which I leveraged to do HT installs on the side). The quality of the connection is the most important part of the chain, not the wire itself. In fact, we usually spec wires on the sheathing for chemical and fire resistance, not electrical qualities.

Now all that being said, I'm not sure how it translates to audio quality.


----------



## chadnliz

This is like debating Abortion and its pointless. I know what I know, I believe what I believe and how I enjoy this hobby affects nobody. Off to something more productive.


----------



## Moonfly

Jason_Nolan said:


> I like the argument some make about those that "cannot afford" this gear that gives spectacular results so good that cables became apparent only with this high dollar super gear.


Thats kind of a case in point. Regardless of whether people can or cant afford the cable, and assuming high end cables do what they claim, then if your equipment isnt super high end, then super high end cables dont make a difference.

To that end, I only by cables I regard as matching my rather average system. I wont spend more than about £20 on a cable. The only time I would, would be a single cable for test purposes, and only if I had equipment that made say a $500 cable seem a fairly insignificant cost in the system as a whole.

FWIW, Ive tried really bad cable, jointed by just twisting wires together, and pretty rubbish gear with no real affect to the eventual SQ. Trying the same on higher end gear does make a difference, but I think there is probably a cut off point where no matter how good your gear is, extra costing isnt worth it unless costing isnt an issue. IMO, good cabling is more important over longer distances, and this is the deciding factor more than anything. I think most of the testing that gets done supports that more than anything else.


----------



## recruit

They say that roughly 10% should be spent on cabling on reflection to the total cost roughly of your set up, I prefer to use good well made power cables ie Isotek because they are so well made and sheilded, power conditioning is another area in which there can be benefits but also negative affects as well, I do not use mains conditioners on power amps now as the majority of low end conditioners rob dynamics from the power amps, the only ones that I have used and tried which worked well on Power amps were the Isotek Titan and Nova, with the Sigmas offering slightly better performance than the budget conditioners.


----------



## Moonfly

One thing I fail to grasp, is why you would really want both high quality mains cables, and mains conditioners. I dont really think power supplies in home are that bad thee days anyway, and for me mains conditioners have never figured into the equation. That said, I was recently looking at one as I needed more sockets, and I'm considering going that way, but more for looks than anything, even though I'll never really look at it. Like you say though John, most devices thrive when their power supply isnt restricted, and everything I would plug in would be either a display, an amplifier, or a computer.

There is certainly a point you can go overboard, and I dont condone the use of the cheapest cable you can find. There is some talk of measuring the differences, and beyond the audible range etc, but what difference does the bit beyond the audible range matter anyway. I take that as marketing talk myself. 

I guess high end cables will make some sort of difference at every level, but the real point, forgetting measurements, is can you actually obviously notice this difference. Personally, I cant tell a difference. I sometimes think I can, but thats not definitive enough for me to discount placebo, so I tell myself I cant tell that difference, and especially so with HDMI cables. Until such time I can, for me, properly high end cables dont make a difference.


----------



## recruit

Everyone has a choice Dan and if people are wanting to purchase higher end cabling then that is there prerogative, especially when the equipment they have costs a small fortune and even if it is perceived by them to make an improvement whether scientifically proved or not so be it, that is why threads like this go round and round in circles, and it is not to say that both sides of the debate all have valid reasons for there decisions and views which is acceptable and should not be ridiculed to say that there opinion is not as valid as anyone else's.

Good quality cables need not cost the earth though and there is plenty of good brands out there.


----------



## Moonfly

Agreed.

I did put on a forum somewhere out on the interweb one time, that if someone buys an uber expensive cable, and they are happy, then it does make a difference. This is not to say it actually does, or this difference can or cannot be measured, but if 'x' individual is happy listening to their system, and part of that is contentment at the 'fact' they 'know' they have good cables that for them do make a difference, then at the end of the day that is all that matters. 

The only grey area is what advice to give to people who have never bought these cables before. The only advice I personally could give to them, is a reflection of the posts I have put in this thread. Its really one of those questions that doesnt really have an answer, but this is why the debate rages on, because opinion is so divided. I think these types of unanswerable questions are why religion was invented, and one should look to god for the answer if one is so inclined, because I dont think man is going to settle this one, at least not without starting a war somewhere. I digress.


----------



## recruit

Moonfly said:


> The only grey area is what advice to give to people who have never bought these cables before. The only advice I personally could give to them, is a reflection of the posts I have put in this thread. Its really one of those questions that doesnt really have an answer, but this is why the debate rages on, because opinion is so divided. I think these types of unanswerable questions are why religion was invented, and one should look to god for the answer if one is so inclined, because I dont think man is going to settle this one, at least not without starting a war somewhere. I digress.


The above is certainly valid, and if a person is looking into purchasing a more expensive cable and need advice then the best advice is that if a dealership is selling such cables, then they should be willing to loan out demo cables for them to try first before committing to the purchase, if they do not agree to this then go elsewhere, I have found many good dealers that are willing to do this and that gives me more confidence in the validity of there selling.


----------



## Moonfly

I think that is the only way forward. I have never purchased a very high end cable, so I have no right at all to have an opinion on how good they are beyond 'I think they are too expensive'.

By the same token, I dont think there are many individuals out there with a 1-2k in cables are going to turn round and honestly say they were a waist of money. They either will think they arent, or if they do probably wouldn't admit to it, and outsiders might struggle to not think a positive comment is bias. Has anyone ever seen a bad review of high end cables from an owner?

Ive never considered a cable demo if I'm honest, now you have enlightened me to that one, I may one day find a dealer willing to do this and test it for myself.

Anyway, anyone fancy some HQ cable, knock yourselves out 

Bargain basement cable clearout


----------



## recruit

Moonfly said:


> Anyway, anyone fancy some HQ cable, knock yourselves out
> 
> Bargain basement cable clearout


You tease :dumbcrazy:


----------



## lcaillo

chadnliz said:


> This is like debating Abortion and its pointless. I know what I know, I believe what I believe and how I enjoy this hobby affects nobody. Off to something more productive.


It is only like moral or ethical debates when they degenerate to polarized "I am right and you are wrong" or " I believe what I believe" levels of discourse. At that point, yes, the discussion is pointless. I don't come here to promote my own beliefs nor to justify them. I come here and engage in these discussions to share my experience and knowledge, and to gain that from others, and hopefully to learn something. 

To say that you "know what you know" is to say that you are unwilling to challenge your own assumptions. If you are happy with that then that is your choice. IMO, you are less likely correct than the naysayers, on technical grounds, but really no different from those on the other side who are not willing to look beyond their own assumptions.


----------



## Moonfly

chadnliz said:


> This is like debating Abortion and its pointless. I know what I know, I believe what I believe and how I enjoy this hobby affects nobody. Off to something more productive.


Input like this is fruitless, and a bit of a waist of server space. As mother told me, if you have nothing worth saying, then dont say anything. I like these threads because one day I hope to find a resolution, and these threads are the only way its going to happen. Maybe I'm an optimist, but its better than giving up IMO


----------



## chadnliz

I said " know what I know" o convey what I believe based on my experience. I dont see where I made any outragous claims, I noted more than once it was often very small so I am not selling some line of incredible . I noted my gear, my experience and impresions yet everytime somebody said I was pretty much wrong so thats why there is no point. No matter what I say your going to come back with how you see things and others will too. That is why it is similar to debates I mentioned.Everyone sees or hears this hobby differently and thats what makes it fun but it also makes it at times pointless to discuss it.
I have experiences you never going to get me to ignore or discount, you have views that nothing I will ever say can change, thats when its time to go enjoy some music or a movie as thats what this is all about.


----------



## bambino

I was say "duked" into buying some nice power cables by a salesman and the only differance i could tell was they sure look really nice, I was thinking about turning my equipment stand around just so i can see them :rofl:. But seriously, i guess the shielding on them could have a positive impact but i have not heard it so i'll assume i do not have noise issues. I told a buddy of mine at work about these ultra expensive cabels and there huge wire gauge and he made a point to me that if the power wire in my walls is only 14 gauge then how would there be a benefit to adding a 8 or 10 gauge cable to the end of it to power my equipment:unbelievable:


----------



## lcaillo

chadnliz said:


> I said " know what I know" o convey what I believe based on my experience. I dont see where I made any outragous claims, I noted more than once it was often very small so I am not selling some line of incredible . I noted my gear, my experience and impresions yet everytime somebody said I was pretty much wrong so thats why there is no point. No matter what I say your going to come back with how you see things and others will too. That is why it is similar to debates I mentioned.Everyone sees or hears this hobby differently and thats what makes it fun but it also makes it at times pointless to discuss it.
> I have experiences you never going to get me to ignore or discount, you have views that nothing I will ever say can change, thats when its time to go enjoy some music or a movie as thats what this is all about.


No one is trying to get you to deny your experience. As I have said before, there are differences in the properties of cables. It has not been demonstrated in any measurement, nor even postulated in a serious way, how any of the differences in power cables will have an audible effect on the system. At the same time, we have many decades of examples of the effects of expectation on human perception. In fact, the very people wh sell these products use this well known principle all the time in sales. It is called "prediction-proof." If you take a group of people and tell each that he/she will experience some specific difference, then expose them to two different sessions listening to the same thing, a large majority will usually report experiencing the difference. It is a REAL difference to them. The point is not that they are stupid or somehow less intelligent. The point is that human perception is HIGHLY VARIABLE and a very fragile representation of the physical reality. This is why eyewitness testimony is so often dead wrong. The observer's experience is very real. It may also have absolutely no basis in the physical world. 

IF one experiences something and feels it is real and valuable, and decides to purchase a product that others see no value in, there is nothing wrong with doing so. There is nothing wrong with believing you hear some difference. The problem is when we discuss these matters and one side does not respect the view of the other. One view is perceptually based, one view is attempting to apply logic and science. I prefer the latter approach, but where I make the objectivist side mad is when I point out that science makes mistakes as well when we go beyond the evidence and start operating on belief and assumption. That is when we get to nonsense like "all HDMI cables are the same." Just like the other side, we often do not know what we do not know.

chadnliz, you should not take offense at being asked for justification of your experience, nor at having it pointed out that your experience may have little basis in electrical theory or application. At the same time, the other side has to be willing to admit that there may be factors that we have not considered. Power cables stand out, however, as an area that is very easy to test and that is very well understood compared to the processing of the audio signal. Power is by comparison, rather trivial to quantify. The expected output of an a.c. transmission system is pure sine waves at a stable voltage and current. The output of a power supply in most devices is expected to be clean d.c. Both are easy to measure, as is the noise that may be present on them. I have done quite a bit of this measurement in my shops, and have found that there is noise on power lines. I have also found that most power supplies do a rather amazing job at filtering it. There are some cases that are hard to manage, but they are rare.


----------



## Alex Wilson

I looked up this thread to find some explanation for the phenomenon I heard when I compared power cables powering the electrostatic panels of my Martin Logan Prodigy speakers. I bought the Prodigys second-hand and they came without power cables. I therefore scavenged around for some power cables from old computers. I have been very pleased with the sound.

The other day an audiophile friend loaned me a pair of Shunyata power cables for me to try. He also loaned me a Juice Bar II Power Extender. Another friend loaned me a pair of Furutech cables for me to listen to.

I have not done extensive listening, but I have done enough. My comparison was between (1) my scavenged computer cables plugged into the wall sockets, and (2) A Furutech cable plugged into a wall socket and the Juice Bar inlet, then two Shunyatas plugged into the Juice Bar outlets and on to the Martin Logans.

To my ears (and also to those of my non-audiophile wife) there is a difference in sound. Whether one is more true to the original sound than the other is difficult to tell when I haven't heard the original sound.

I would describe the computer cable sound as more spacious, three-dimensional, and seemed to have more ambient detail. My wife independently (and, I just discovered, without knowing which cable was which) described it as having 'a greater plethora of sounds', 'more sounds', 'more hashy'.

I would describe the more expensive combination as smoother, purer, rounder, but less spacious, less three-dimensional, and lacking in ambient detail. My wife described it as 'purer'.

The sound of the two cable combinations was so different that if I didn't know otherwise, I would have thought we were listening to different recordings. The cheaper cable either had so much more subtle ambient detail (to take a positive approach) or so much extraneous sound (to take a negative approach) as to make the two combinations as different as chalk and cheese. Don't ask me which was which.

My wife said she didn't know which she preferred; they were just different. I found my preference depended on the genre of music I was listening to.

Apart from my observations above, I do not draw any conclusions. One could be tempted to the conclusion that the more expensive combination *should* be truer to the original recording, but I have no way of evaluating that.

I relate very much to the *technical* arguments people on the forum who argue that there *cannot* be any difference, but I also relate to those who say from their listening experience that there *is* a difference.

Since my current musical preference is jazz, and I much prefer the computer cables for jazz, I will probably stick with those for the moment, even if I am guilty of indulging in the the cheap cable *imperfections* of three-dimensionality, spaciousness, and ambience and missing out on the expensive cable *refinements* such as purity, smoothness and fullness.

I am a little puzzled as to why some deny hearing any differences between power cables. Perhaps if I had done the specific comparisons that they have, I also would have found no difference. I have certainly found no significant difference between some speaker cables I have compared.

I can only say with certainty that the two combinations I listened to sounded different to both my wife and me when powering my electrostatic panels. Perhaps electrostatic panels are more revealing of differences that other components such as amps.


----------



## lcaillo

Were the tests blind or did you have prior knowledge regarding the cables you were listening to? How many times did you repeat the tests?


----------



## Anthony

I wonder how the bias voltage in electrostats is done. If it is direct-coupled to the power (and not through a full power supply) then I would imagine it could make a difference.

I stand by my theory that better power cables are usually better constructed and that makes all the difference. I've seen circuits on a o-scope with a loose connection (and ones with two different metals), and it is not a nice sine wave (that's how we found out there was a loose connection).

I think in most cases, these get isolated/damped out by a full power supply (transformer, diodes, capacitors). However, if the electrostats are just passing through a transformer to up the voltage, then some of the inconsistency might make it through to the sound.


----------



## glaufman

Even if it goes through a tranformer, much HF distortion can be eliminated, as the tranformer itself will pass less and less energy with increasing frequency. 
I too am interested in more info about these tests. Did you try listening to A, then B, then have someone randomly switch to one or the other and try to identify which one it was?


----------



## Alex Wilson

Unfortunately the tests were not blind - at least for me. We also did not do a specific number of repetitions, nor randomise the samples. We just sat down to have a listen, switched backwards and forwards a couple of times, and came to our conclusions. I never had any intention of sharing the results and so it did not occur to me to make the tests scientifically valid, especially since I did not really expect to hear any significant difference.

For my wife it was a little different. She is not terribly interested in audio, and was reading a novel at the time. Whenever I changed cables, she would go back to reading the novel, so apparently she did not know which cables were playing each time I asked her to listen. So while it was effectively a blind test for her, there still was no randomisation of the samples - we simply A-B-A-B'd.

Having read most of the posts on this thread since my listening tests, I realise (1) how heated the debate can get, (2) The importance of repeated randomised blind tests to those more scientifically-inclined.

I would be interested in trying these repeated randomised blind tests, but would like to get the forum's consensus on the methodology first. I only ask that the methodology not be too tedious, because (a) I have limited time available, and (b) I need to enlist the help of my wife and/or son, neither of whom are very interested in audio.

I look forward to hearing some input regarding methodology, but do not want to change the focus of the thread by eliciting hundreds of replies.


----------



## lcaillo

Use the same material in each sample, randomize the presentation, repeat the sampling as many times as possible, and test for differences between samples as well as ability to determine which sample is used.


----------



## glaufman

What Leonard said :T


----------



## recruit

It would be nice to have the definitive answer on this subject, but some how I see this debate going on for a very long time!


----------



## Jason_Nolan

There's always a definitive answer on any subject, just ask someone they'll tell you. Then you can ask someone else and they'll tell you.


----------



## recruit

Jason_Nolan said:


> There's always a definitive answer on any subject, just ask someone they'll tell you. Then you can ask someone else and they'll tell you.


Sounds about right :dumbcrazy:


----------



## JoeESP9

All speaker cables sound the same? Only low LCR measurements are important? Please read the article in the link below. Non believers keep asking for proof. Here it is. Please pay particular attention to Figure 6.8. Will someone please send this link to Roger Russell.

I'm not trying to hijack the thread. However, I think this is pertinent to any wire/cable discussion.

Moderators if you think this deserves it's own thread please move it.


http://www.audiodesignline.com/howto/201807390e thread but


----------



## Moonfly

Jason_Nolan said:


> There's always a definitive answer on any subject, just ask someone they'll tell you. Then you can ask someone else and they'll tell you.


Then you keep doing this till you decide you have enough answers to make up your own mind, and that is the definitive answer.

Ive said before, if you 'think' a cable makes a difference, whether you can measure it or not, then it does make a difference. Even if its placebo putting your mind at rest, as long as it is at rest and you can forget about your cables and just enjoy your system, then IMO that is all that matters.


----------



## Anthony

I think fundamentally (for me), it comes down to:

a) making sure someone isn't being ripped off
b) making sure people enjoy their system
c) science!

Notice where science is on that hierarchy


----------



## lcaillo

People pay prices that would make me feel like I am getting ripped off all of the time. There are different priorities in making a purchase and enjoying a system. The best we can do is try to inform and explore, but it is not our place to protect everyone from themselves in a manner that we, personally, would prioritize things. 

What many forget is that the part of the industry that might be considered overpriced or even "snake oil" funds much of what we enjoy. All of those ads and many of the products we use would never exist if everyone got the best deals and no one ever paid what some of us consider absurdly high prices.

The fact is that the majority of people do not get the best value. If they did, we would have little to talk about and we would be buying everything online and at warehouse stores.


----------



## glaufman

Ah, well the problem there is that there's no single, universal, metric one can apply to the measure of "value." It's subjective.


----------



## Matteo

I met the guy who developed Kimber Cable, at least that is what he told me. He buys several motorcycles every month and sells the ones he doesn't like. Talk about making some cash. I almost bought a bullet bike from him. Just thought I'd throw that out, not sure why. 


Matteo


----------



## recruit

No doubt there are some ridiculous claims that get made by some cable manufacturers, but there are still good value ones out there that provide alternatives but at reasonable prices...


----------



## goyop

In a humble attempt to bring some closure to this topic I offer the following in several parts. First the technical aspects of power cables and the actual electrical differences which can be measured. Then second I believe I can shed some light on the issue of perceived differences and the point that lcaillo has made several times about why people hear differences based upon their expectations. Most of what I will share is based in science and engineering and direct experience.

THE SCIENCE

Many have made good arguments, I will summarize here and add some points of my own. (As a background I worked as an engineer on projects where I had to measure inrush current spikes caused by the startup of motors on systems with super sensitive equipment connected to the same power source. I also worked on a high power (20kv) microwave radar system that was so powerful it would dim down the building lighting in a commercial site that had plenty of three phase power.)

All amps need an AC power source to function. They are designed to operate within a range of conditions such as low v, high v, required current, junk on the line, etc. Most consumer amps can easily operate from a 15 amp outlet. Some pro amps may actually require a 20 amp outlet.

A 15 amp circuit uses number 14 solid copper wire. A 20 amp circuit uses number 12 solid copper. So for the sake of getting the current into your amp, any wire bigger than what is running in the walls is pointless because you cannot get more than is available at the outlet. However, there is a benefit in using stranded wire for power cords (all power cords use stranded). Stranded wire generally has less resistance but typically only noticeable at higher frequencies not the 60 hertz of house power. So a bigger wire size is of no benefit in terms of getting more power to the amp.

As far as shielding, unless you are running a Tesla coil in your living room you will not pick up any junk on your power cord. One item that I have not seen addressed is the amount of filtering that goes on inside the power supply of a high end power amp. The DC power supply for an amp is nothing but a giant filter. It is designed to smooth to a perfect flat line the voltage required to power the amp. How any more shielding on a power cord could improve on this is technically beyond me.

(A note on power supplies inside amplifiers - what happens is that AC voltage first comes into the amp from the wall socket. AC voltage is alternating current which is a sine wave which goes positive then negative over and over. Your AC voltage goes from +120 volts to -120 volts over and over. In this form it is useless for an amplifier. An amplifier needs DC voltage at varying levels to function. DC voltage is a flat line at a fixed level. So, there is a power supply that converts the AC to DC. The power supply first chops the negative part off and flips it up onto the positive side. Then filters take this bumpy voltage and smooth it into a perfectly flat line. The filters are designed to also remove any noise that may have come in on the AC house line.)

Someone mentioned running a direct line to the AV system from the breaker box. This is great advice. The best thing you could do is have a dedicated 20 amp (I have 2) line running to your AV system and definitely use "spec" grade outlets at a minimum. The hospital outlets are nice but spec grade are solid. If you run dedicated line(s) you will have all the clean power you need. An expensive cord will not help you beyond this. 

Some use power conditioners which I highly recommend. I use battery backup UPS. I do this for two reasons, one is that it protects the equipment from spikes or brownouts. It is also an awesome filter because the battery can kick in when line voltage is low and deliver consistent clean power. 

WHY WE HEAR DIFFERENCES

If a person has a dedicated line to the system and some sort of power conditioning on the line there is no scientific basis for any difference in audio output. Whatever slight capacitive or inductive or shielding that a six foot power cord might bring it will be instantly wiped out when it hits the DC power supply in the amp. It is important to understand that DC voltage has no "flavors" - it is a FLAT line. There is no way for this to carry over into the sonic output of the amp. There really is no way for the cord to affect warmth or depth of sound. So why do we hear it?

It is possible that going to a thicker cord (although no thicker than what is in the wall) could provide some modest improvement during peak power demands this would be more noticed on super loud passages where the amp was running full tilt. Definitely not in some moderate level listening. But in my experience I have never seen a consumer or pro amp be limited by the power cord. You will blow a fuse or trip the overcurrent device in the amp before that happens.

About how we perceive things, I have noticed for myself that when my truck is washed and full of gas it seems to run better. Ever since I was 16 years old I have felt this. And if I just got a haircut then everything is working better! As an engineer I know that it isn't true but it feels like it.

A final example I will give could shed some light on perceptions. This is something I was taught while training under an award winning recording engineer. Artists can be demanding at times and a person must learn to find a balance when working with them. Occasionally, an artist will demand some change that you know will not work or will not get the result they are looking for but will really be a time waster. If they continue to insist I was taught to simply go to a knob that is not in use at the time and not even connected to anything (a dummy knob) and slowly adjust it until they say, "Yes, that's it!" I and others have done this on many occasions. They thought they really dialed it in and we could move on. Finally, I was doing a live sound job at a big hotel in Los Angeles and the director was a real pain. He was telling me that he needed another mic for this and that. I was out of channels and I also knew that it wouldn't work even if I had one. Well he started swearing at me so I grabbed a mic, set it up, then threw the cable under the stage without connecting it to anything. I called him over, adjusted some dials and asked him what he thought. He said that it was now perfect and I should just listen to him next time. 

Amen


----------



## bambino

Amazing explanation, thank you. My buddy and i at work were talking about the power wire thing and both agreed there couldn't be a benefit to a larger gauge cord on the outside of the wall if the wire on the inside was smaller (resistance). This subject came up because of a salesperson from a well known publication that sells audio products through catalog and internet talked me into buying an 8 AWG power cable. Thanks again for your knowledge.:clap:


----------



## DWJ

Good morning all, looks like an actual _civil_ cable discussion going. Kudos to the staff for keeping it so.:T

I have not made up my mind completely about power cables, but have noticed differences in several different IC's, and speaker cables in my system. I did however, find a very interesting (but long) video from a seminar given by two cooperating audio companies. I found their testing, and results along with the explanations of them, to make a lot of sense to this layman. I'd be very interested if they make this available freely, as they said they intend to. What do you think?

http://audiofest.net/2010/video_player.php?video_id=10&Sid=d3517a3253cac4ffb4248482c29691dc


----------



## soundoff

Very debated topic, 11 pgs !

The power cable should be properly rated to supply the equipment for safety reasons. Will it improve the sound (quality) that is for your ears to decide, trial and error...good luck.

The power cable is only one link in the entire chain. What good is it to have a new shiny master link when the rest of the chain is rusted ? Basically, you should consider the entire electrical route from street to home to service panel to the AV room. There are many options to consider.


----------



## Moonfly

For me a power cable upgrade would only really b on the cards if I knew I needed one, in that my sound was obviously affected by a bad power supply. You would probably need a mains conditioner then though, which in theory should mean you dont need a fancy cable anyway. I have put a good quality power cable on my amp, but I couldnt really tell if it made any difference to my ears, so they arent something Ive yet subscribed too.


----------



## DWJ

Moonfly said:


> For me a power cable upgrade would only really b on the cards if I knew I needed one, in that my sound was obviously affected by a bad power supply. You would probably need a mains conditioner then though, which in theory should mean you dont need a fancy cable anyway. I have put a good quality power cable on my amp, but I couldnt really tell if it made any difference to my ears, so they arent something Ive yet subscribed too.


I've heard tell, that they are the most effective/beneficial on _source components_, which makes sense. In the video I linked to, they show graphs of the timing/phase angle differences of music through a CDP, with and without an upgraded cord. They overlaid the two samples, and subtracted the difference, which is distortion. The other more important feature, is that none of this shows up when using only test tones. They used real music, even though their audio demo didn't pan out.

What I appreciated, was that it was not presented as a living sales brochure, no specific cables were suggested, just higher quality ones.


----------



## glaufman

I haven't watched the whole video, but I think they got you WRT your last comment ...
The few minutes I've had a chance to watch were all filmed with a company name in the background.
If it were in a TV show or a movie, we'd call that product-placement, and it's a subtle, almost sub-conscious way to push a particular product without slamming you i nthe face with it.

I will try to find time to watch the whole video, I have to say I'm already biased against being impressed, as I always am with similar demonstrations where I cannot personally inspect the setups and witness the data collection to ensure no funny-business.


----------



## DWJ

*WRT*?:scratch:

The gist of it is, these companies, are attempting to establish measurement procedures to measure what was previously unmeasurable. i.e; putting numbers to changes in imaging, etc.

Nordost is one of the companies, the lecture was given during the Rocky Mtn. Audio Fest at the Nordost room/booth. Skepticism is understandable, given the price of some of their product. That's how I viewed the video, :sneeky: but what they explained and showed made sense. YMMV


----------



## Andre

IMHO

Yes....On a test bench
No...In Real Life


----------



## glaufman

DWJ said:


> *WRT*?:scratch:


WRT=With Respect To


----------



## DWJ

glaufman said:


> WRT=With Respect To


:doh:

Gotcha.


----------



## Moonfly

Andre said:


> IMHO
> 
> Yes....On a test bench
> No...In Real Life



Another valid question is this. Does say a $500 cable improve your system as well as a power amp costing $500 more than current one would. I have a strict limit on power cables and wont spend over £100 on one. I only have one high quality cable just because I wanted to try one, all my other cables are of required quality, and thats it. I will probably change them all eventually, but only out of vanity, and only when I have nothing better to spend my money on in my hobby. One good thing though, is I can keep these better cables when I upgrade, so they would only be a one time outlay at least.


----------



## Andre

Another question besides the transmission of said power, is the power itself. Would it be better to spend the money on a line conditioner such as a Furman unit.


----------



## tonyvdb

It depends on where you live, Edmonton has fairly clean power so something that expensive is a bit of a waste of money. You could do just as well with an Isobar from triplite.


----------



## DWJ

Moonfly said:


> Another valid question is this. Does say a $500 cable improve your system as well as a power amp costing $500 more than current one would.....


I guess that would depend on the current amp. If it's a $500 amp, no. If it's a $4500 amp, then I'd think it makes a bit more sense. But I do think that different components trump cable upgrades every time, this includes power conditioners. That's just my opinion, though. The simple answer for every question in this hobby seems to be, "It depends.....":rofl2:


----------



## Andre

Also very true Tony. I beleive such esoteric items cause the brain to go into a "it must sound better I paid $500 for them, darnit" mode. Like when we were told to use a $25 green highligter on the edge of our CD.


----------



## Anthony

Ah, the green highlighter.  I remember that snake oil. I tried it, thought I heard a difference and then had a friend bring the same CD over. It wasn't double blind, but after several random swaps, we could not tell which was which.

I've been skeptical of this whole industry every since  :foottap:


----------



## Andre

But But, it absorbed the splash light from the laser that was hitting other parts of the CD which was causing the pickup to confuse the DAC with more ultra bit information that could be heard.

Also playing any Perry Como song at 78 speed backwards will call Elvis to your home....


----------



## goyop

As beloved Scotty always says "Captain, I cannot change the laws of physics!"

This is still a physics and electrical properties issue. There is simply NO way for a different power cord to improve the sound of a AV or stereo if the supply cord is sized according to the current draw of the amp. Beyond that, using a power cord larger than the wire size in the wall cannot give you more or better current than what is in the wall. It is a physical impossibility. So that means any power cord over #12 is useless. 

As mentioned before, the best things to do are to:
1) Run a dedicated 20 amp line to the AV area and use spec grade outlets.
2) Add a power conditioner or UPS

That's it. There is nothing more that can be done to improve the power to an AV or amp.

Regarding the demonstration of phase and overlay and distortion this again is impossible. The thing to keep in mind is that your AV or amp is NOT powered by AC power. It is powered by DC power which is created from AC wall power. Before going into the amp AC is turned into DC. In this form it is a completely flat line and there is no phase in DC power. The only way you might see a tiny amount of distortion is if you have the volume on #11. In this case it would not be a pleasant listening situation and the distortion would be from driving the speakers too hard with an undersized amp - not the power cable.


----------



## unfairlane

During my years as an audiophile & diy`er I`ve had a few jaw-dropping breakthroughs, including one about powercables. From earlier I knew that everything on the secondary/low current side had to be huge and solid core to make the amp breath like it`s supposed to. 

My powercable-breakthrough began when I visited Electrocompaniet years back and got my hands on their last 25ft of powercable by promising to use it as speakercable. (the 8x17awg sc cable was no longer allowed to be used as pc) Back home I eas using an 25ft extension-cable to a 16A output. Replacing this with the Electrocompaniet 8x17awg sc(3+,3-,2 ground) gave a big lift in dynamics aso. Impressing, but why?

After dwelling a while over this I decided to try an ordinary (2+1)x12awg sc instead, and another jawdrop! Inspired by this I made up my first 3x12awg sc shielded powercables and the rest is history. The biggest suprise came when I brouht a pair of sc powercables to my friends Jadis-system. The idea was to help his JP-80 monoblocks, but since I also brought my rebuilt poweramp the Jadis-blocks wasn`t used. Instead I attached the sc pc`s to his CD-combo, not expecting too much. But on a system like this, it was like removing the earplugs!! Shocking. 

Due to common "knowlegde" this shouldn`t happen, just ask any "expert". But if you try this out on a powerful system you`ll have to push up your jaw:unbelievable:


----------



## lcaillo

I am an "expert." The effects that you describe do not fit with my training, experience, and knowledge in the field. I do not, however, deny your experience. I will require some greater evidence than your personal perception to accept these effects as fact. Have you done anything to control for the psychological variables that are far more likely to account for these effects? Based upon the science in the field, there does not seem to be much to justify your claims. I would love to find such evidence or reasonable explanations if you have them or know of them.

Also, understand that your use of the terms knowledge and expert, in quotes, begs for an argument. We do not operate that way here at Home Theater Shack. If you want to make your case for what you have experienced you are quite welcome to do so, but please do not bait a thread like this in this manner.


----------



## unfairlane

lcaillo; 

This is way too much of an uppgrade (on a hot system) to spend time on psycological variables. Even on more mediocre systems this adds authority & dynamics. Or the other way; the second* worst thing you can do to your system is to power it through a long mutistranded extensioncable.

* The worst thing is to use long, thin & multistrand speakercables. It`s even worse here cause of the low current & low impedance out of amp. 


Please excuse mui poor english


----------



## lcaillo

These are your opinions. IME, they are very likely based upon experiences that are mostly explained by psychological variables. We would be very interested to hear some reasoning and evidence that support some of your claims.


----------



## Moonfly

Im no cable expert, but I'm sure ive read somewhere that multi strand is better because the signal travels on the surface of the cable, and multi strand increases surface area massively. Is this the case or not? What advantages do solid cables offer over stranded etc.


----------



## lcaillo

It is the case, but is not a significant factor for audio frequencies. At RF it is a consideration. It is even less of a matter for a.c. supplies at 50 or 60 cycles. The most likely way in which a power cable can affect sound in a system is by picking up noise. As for the claims of those who hear big differences in sound quality or other effects, I am still waiting for a plausible explanation for how this occurs. I am open minded and willing to test any reasonable hypothesis, but have not seen one yet.


----------



## Moonfly

my own experience echoes yours. perhaps thats why I dont really devote much time to such subjects.


----------



## bambino

I still feel that if one were to hear even the slightest differance the cable would need to be changed all the way from the Recepticle to the Junction box. JMO.:T


----------



## lcaillo

If there was a local problem in the area near the system where some noise was being generated, I could see something being picked up or shielded with just the power cable. Otherwise, I agree, the house wiring is likely just as important (or unimportant) as the cable on the unit.


----------



## recruit

I had a separate 30amp mains spur run in for my power amp and sub, and use higher quality mains cables for there shielding as I have had interference with the out of the box cables, but it is purely because I have so many cables crossing each other that noise was introduced.

I also use high quality RCA cables from source > processor > amps and this is where I have noticed improvements in SQ over cheaper cables.


----------



## soundoff

unfairlane said:


> During my years as an audiophile & diy`er I`ve had a few jaw-dropping breakthroughs, including one about powercables. From earlier I knew that everything on the secondary/low current side had to be huge and solid core to make the amp breath like it`s supposed to.
> 
> My powercable-breakthrough began when I visited Electrocompaniet years back and got my hands on their last 25ft of powercable by promising to use it as speakercable. (the 8x17awg sc cable was no longer allowed to be used as pc) Back home I eas using an 25ft extension-cable to a 16A output. Replacing this with the Electrocompaniet 8x17awg sc(3+,3-,2 ground) gave a big lift in dynamics aso. Impressing, but why?
> 
> After dwelling a while over this I decided to try an ordinary (2+1)x12awg sc instead, and another jawdrop! Inspired by this I made up my first 3x12awg sc shielded powercables and the rest is history. The biggest suprise came when I brouht a pair of sc powercables to my friends Jadis-system. The idea was to help his JP-80 monoblocks, but since I also brought my rebuilt poweramp the Jadis-blocks wasn`t used. Instead I attached the sc pc`s to his CD-combo, not expecting too much. But on a system like this, it was like removing the earplugs!! Shocking.
> 
> Due to common "knowlegde" this shouldn`t happen, just ask any "expert". But if you try this out on a powerful system you`ll have to push up your jaw:unbelievable:


If using a shielded power cable made an improvement then your most likely dealing with an EMI issue.


----------



## gsmollin

This is just a perennial thread, long after many useful threads have gone dormant. Even the EMI arguments don't ring true. Six feet of shielded cable are unimportant when there can be a hundred feet of unshielded 14/3 going to the service entrance, then hundreds more to the pole transformer.

The other fact you have to remember is that the power supply is designed to filter out the 60 hertz line noise. If it didn't do that, you would hear 60, or 120 Hz hum in your speakers, and send your amp back for service. With all that filtering, you simply can't "hear" anything on the power line side of your equipment.

Despite all the facts to the contrary, people keep hearing "jaw-dropping" results for changing a power cable. People also keep seeing flying saucers.


----------



## soundoff

Typically the amount of $$ allocated to the power supply design is the smallest portion for the assembly. It is for this reason the filtering can be suspect, however, there are standard guidelines that need to be compliant of comercial equip and EMI.


----------



## robbo266317

soundoff said:


> Typically the amount of $$ allocated to the power supply design is the smallest portion for the assembly. It is for this reason the filtering can be suspect, however, there are standard guidelines that need to be compliant of comercial equip and EMI.


The dollar value of a power supply is low because it is so easy to design and the parts are inexpensive. 

a) put a transformer in that can adequately supply the maximum power required.
b) put capacitors after it to keep the voltage smooth whilst supplying maximum power.

If the transformer and capacitors are not designed to supply the necessary voltages and currents for maximum power then replacing the power cable is not going to make any difference.

However if the transformer and capacitors can supply the necessary voltages and currents for maximum power then replacing the power cable is also not going to make any difference.

EMI is typically induced in the electronic stages, or signal inputs, and not the power supply.


----------



## ironglen

In the spirit of 'meaningful difference' questions regarding power cable. I plan to increase the original 16G wire power cable to 14G double insulated (it cost <$1 anyway) as it has 1200w, 10A listed on the device and I've got an extremely long two conductor amplifier power cable that I'd like to shorten (it also has some nicks in the single-layer insulation). 

Should I replace it with a three-conductor grounded plug? If so, how do I best determine where to attach the cable's ground wire?


----------



## goyop

As I mentioned in two earlier posts and several people have reinforced, there are a finite number of measures one can take to maximize the AC voltage and current reaching your amp. This is not magic it is simple science and physics. Having worked in multi million dollar recording studios and doing live sound I have NEVER experienced or heard of a single instance where a power cord to an amp either caused a problem or improved sonic performance. The studio where I studied is in Hollywood and the owner has 8 gold albums to his credit. If anyone is going to be sure to have the right gear I am pretty certain it would be him.

But again, he took all the measures necessary to have clean power like running ample supply lines that are on their own breakers, filtering these power sources, using care in not running your signal input lines parallel to power lines, etc. But I have never seen anyone buy a "special" power cable. And in the studio environment you do get all kinds of crazy interference and noise. I have helped on some occasions where a whole day is spent tracking down the problem but it has never resulted in the discovery that the power cable to the amp is the problem.

It was mentioned earlier in the post that stranded cables are better but ALL power cables are stranded.

For IronGlen, you should go ahead and increase your cable to #14 or even #12 stranded. Any bigger though is pointless since the wires in the wall are smaller. Regarding the ground connection, I am not sure what you are asking. Are you saying that your current power cord is ungrounded and you want to add a ground? If so I would not recommend it. You would have to open the amp and really understand the grounding scheme to avoid a disaster. If it ain't broke don't break it.

High end amps do not skimp on the power supply parts. On the contrary. They know that there must be a constant supply of clean DC power for high end, high dynamic range performance. Manufacturers tend to use the same level of parts all the way through. If they are skimping in the power supply section they are also using cheaper capacitors and parts all the way through. So you would not likely see an audiophile amp with a cheap power supply. These guys tend to even over build the power supplies.

Most of the true "experts" on this site are very open to being shown new things. However most experts demand a level of integrity in the science. The first and most universal question is "Can you repeat this result in other places under similar conditions?" So someone may have perceived an improvement of some sort by making a change to their system but as lcailo says, how was it done? Can it be reproduced? Even if it flies in the face of science if it can be reproduced consistently then it might be that the science has it wrong. It does not appear to be the case on this topic.


----------



## ironglen

Thanks Goyop, I figured it wouldn't hurt stepping up a gauge as the draw is a bit close at 1200w for 16g wire and I've got it on a dedicated 12 g run circuit. The cable in question is hard-wired into the amp, and it is only a two conductor cable: no ground. The replacement cable that I would solder-in has a ground wire and plug. I suppose I could simply leave the ground wire open and safely cap off the loose wire rather than snapping the ground prong, eh?


----------



## recruit

You do not have to spend mega bucks for a decent well shielded power cable, they usually say spend roughly 10% on cables on comparison to the cost of your whole system.


----------



## Lucky7!

recruit said:


> You do not have to spend mega bucks for a decent well shielded power cable,


I've yet to see any credible proof that a shielded power lead will make any difference at all.


recruit said:


> they usually say spend roughly 10% on cables on comparison to the cost of your whole system.


I've never understood this, but I read it often. If you have a few grand in your system, as many here have, and you have $500+ in cables, I reckon you've spent too much on them. I don't see any need to spend that much unless you have a system of enormous complexity and connectivity and the expense is because of the number. there are plenty of sources for quality cable at modest prices, eg the places that make them for broadcast or BJC and similar.

Any power cable simply needs to be adequately sized for the job, be legal, and have the appropriate connectors. I used to work as an engineer in broadcast, and we had a lot of gear, usually in racks with bundled and loomed cables that would make a tweaky audiophile twitch, but I never saw anything I would even remotely put down PS leakage in/out of a cable. When I once assisted in the design and construction of a mobile RF test facility, it was located in an area that was all commercial operating 24/7 and the mains was as dirty as I've ever seen. What actually cleaned it up really well, once everything else was sorted, was a couple of huge EI core isolation transformers that acted like a low pass filter from 1k or so (operating from memory here). There is no way a cable will every behave like that.


----------



## recruit

Maybe it is all down to perception and psychoacoustics playing a big part in what I believe or hear...and the cables industry are ripping us all off, I think I should get in touch with my lawyer :huh: 

These discussions do make me laugh though as they always end up going round in circles yes/no...yes/no :sarcastic:


----------



## lcaillo

goyop said:


> As I mentioned in two earlier posts and several people have reinforced, there are a finite number of measures one can take to maximize the AC voltage and current reaching your amp. This is not magic it is simple science and physics. Having worked in multi million dollar recording studios and doing live sound I have NEVER experienced or heard of a single instance where a power cord to an amp either caused a problem or improved sonic performance. The studio where I studied is in Hollywood and the owner has 8 gold albums to his credit. If anyone is going to be sure to have the right gear I am pretty certain it would be him.
> 
> But again, he took all the measures necessary to have clean power like running ample supply lines that are on their own breakers, filtering these power sources, using care in not running your signal input lines parallel to power lines, etc. But I have never seen anyone buy a "special" power cable. And in the studio environment you do get all kinds of crazy interference and noise. I have helped on some occasions where a whole day is spent tracking down the problem but it has never resulted in the discovery that the power cable to the amp is the problem.
> 
> It was mentioned earlier in the post that stranded cables are better but ALL power cables are stranded.
> 
> For IronGlen, you should go ahead and increase your cable to #14 or even #12 stranded. Any bigger though is pointless since the wires in the wall are smaller. Regarding the ground connection, I am not sure what you are asking. Are you saying that your current power cord is ungrounded and you want to add a ground? If so I would not recommend it. You would have to open the amp and really understand the grounding scheme to avoid a disaster. If it ain't broke don't break it.
> 
> High end amps do not skimp on the power supply parts. On the contrary. They know that there must be a constant supply of clean DC power for high end, high dynamic range performance. Manufacturers tend to use the same level of parts all the way through. If they are skimping in the power supply section they are also using cheaper capacitors and parts all the way through. So you would not likely see an audiophile amp with a cheap power supply. These guys tend to even over build the power supplies.
> 
> Most of the true "experts" on this site are very open to being shown new things. However most experts demand a level of integrity in the science. The first and most universal question is "Can you repeat this result in other places under similar conditions?" So someone may have perceived an improvement of some sort by making a change to their system but as lcailo says, how was it done? Can it be reproduced? Even if it flies in the face of science if it can be reproduced consistently then it might be that the science has it wrong. It does not appear to be the case on this topic.


Very well said, goyop. I would add that I have looked for these effects. I have lots of equipment in the shop and some generates interference. I have repeatedly looked for it on power supplies, and while some can be found in the primaries occassionally, I have not been able to get rid of it with expensive power cables that I tested. The real point is that I have not seen it on power supply secondaries. Even conventional supplies do a good job of filtering and almost all noise at the signal level in most audio components is due to ground issues. Units that use SMPS (almost all products other than better quality units containing amps) generate far more noise (orders of magnitude greater) in the power supply conversion itself than found externally. The filters in the secondary and further regulation deal with that well in most cases.


----------



## ironglen

I got this back from the amp manufacturer regarding the cable replacement:
"You could install a grounded plug though, by design, this is not necessary. As such, we do not have a specific location other than the chassis screws themselves to perform the attachment."

So, this near $1000 amp (new) didn't even have a ground. So, the question is how to configure the new cable's ground prong/wire (it is #14, paid for, and I'm not buying another)? To ground or not to ground...:nerd::nerd:


----------



## Andre

If it wasn't designed to be 3 prong, I don't know if that is a good idea, however, I am not an eletronics technician


----------



## lcaillo

It should not matter. It depends. The chassis is grounded to the other devices through the shield on the interconnects but you might introduce a ground loop if you add a ground connection if you don't have good grounding somewhere else. If the unit was designed to operate without a specific chassis ground, I would not alter that design without a good reason to do so.


----------



## ironglen

Thanks for the feedback Leonard- I figured it wouldn't matter. I wasn't sure if grounding the chassis could actually help with reducing ground loops/interference, but if it could, I surely would want to! The amp was used and the long cable (8'), with it's nicks in the single insulator has always concerned me, so I'm getting around to replacing it.


----------



## goyop

If you read all the posts you will discover that this conversation does not really do in a circle or a yes/no/yes/no. There are people here who have explained at length the physical/electrical principles and the literal impossibility of improvement by an oversized / shielded power cord. The thing that makes it appear to go in circles seems to be that people don't read the posts and try to understand what is actually happening in this scenario and then throw in an anecdote about how swapping a cable made it sound "warmer". 

Ironglen - In my educated (elec engineer) and experiential opinion, you are asking for a disaster by grounding that third wire to the chassis. Best case you may get some ground hum that lcailo mentioned. Worse case those very expensive giant capacitors will swell up and go poof.

To clarify, your case is grounded. The problem is that we don't know for sure how they did it. It is not acceptable to use the neutral wire for a chassis ground even though the neutral is really a ground. So I am sure they didn't do that. What they probably did is ground the case with the negative side of the DC power supply. This is a system ground which serves as shielding for the sensitive amp components. Typically in an amp the green wire from the wall and the DC ground could be mounted to the chassis. But to just go ahead and add the AC ground to the chassis is taking a big chance. If the amp works fine as is then leave it alone. There is nothing to be gained and much to lose. Good luck.


----------



## ironglen

Will do- thank you Goyop! :wave:


----------



## Andre

I believe that the brain’s perception and sensitivity to the senses is directly proportional to the amount of personal time and or money spent in order to excite them. No amount of measurements, mathematics, white papers, or professional opinions will dissuade that level of belief. Hence the reason companies building $20k speaker wire are still selling them.


----------



## goyop

Many have affirmed the tricks that the mind can play on us. Especially if you shelled out a lot of money for magic wires. In an earlier post I gave a couple of examples of tricks used in recording and live sound to appease insistent but unknowledgeable clients. It is amazing to watch their face grow into a smile as they tell you how much more to raise or lower a knob that is not connected to anything and then proclaim it perfect.

I guess this is part of the discussion here since some people claim that they can hear a warmer sound with an expensive power cable. The reason I stress the physics is that for purposes of this forum we are seeking knowledge. I do not fault any person who does not understand the physics of power cords or power supplies. That is one reason why this forum exists is to share our skills and experience. The science needs explained because it simply says whether an assumption is true or false so that non engineers/techs can hear the straight scoop.

My hope is that no one at this forum will ever pay for an expensive power cord. 

(I have given thought to manufacturing a super jumbo, high performance, torroidially wound, solid carbon core, nano fiber shielded power cable. If people are going to throw away a lot of money on a power cord then maybe we should help them. Question - how much do the super high end power cords sell for?)


----------



## lcaillo

goyop said:


> Ma The science needs explained because it simply says whether an assumption is true or false so that non engineers/techs can hear the straight scoop.QUOTE]
> 
> I have to take issue with this statement. The purpose of science is to discover. It is not to support a particular perspective based upon certain assumptions. Doing science is a matter of testing a hypothesis, which is inherently based upon assumptions. Bad science gets done all the time where all of the assumptions are not understood, admitted, nor controlled for. Assuming that there are no difference between power cables a priori is just as bad in terms of science as assuming that one's own perception of a sound difference proves anything. Science does not prove that there are no differences in the sound of power cables. Repeated studies that control for many variables that do not find differences might suggest that, and perhaps convincingly. An understanding of the physics and psychoacoustics involved might lead one to different conclusions than the individual that hears a difference in power cables, but it does not prove anything either.
> 
> What we believe, whether it is based upon science or upon our individual perception, is still a belief founded on assumptions. Those based upon the science and research simply have more probability of reflecting the reality of the matter. It remains true, however, that we still don't know what we don't know. Science is about discovering that, and in these matters, science needs to be about understanding why people perceive what they do and believe what they do as much as about our assumtions regarding the physics.
> 
> 
> 
> goyop said:
> 
> 
> 
> My hope is that no one at this forum will ever pay for an expensive power cord.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I am somewhat less evangelical on the issue than you. If someone wants to believe that their power cables make their system sound better and want to spend money on them, they are welcome to do so. Where I draw the line is when they confuse what they have perceived with hard facts and encourage others to believe the same based upon little more than the subjective experience of one or a few people, or reasoning that is inconsistent with the science and experience of those who have investigated the matter more objectively. I would hate to see someone go out and buy an expensive power cable simply because they got only the part of the story that included someone's personal perception.
> 
> People spend lots of money on what appear to be silly things all the time. If it enriches their life, even for a moment, or if they believe that it does, or if it just gives them some sense of some greater experience, it really does not matter what science says, nor if that experience aligns which the physics.
> 
> Just don't expect to try to sell some idea here without the facts being questioned, and the context of the psychological variables being made clear. What the science in many aspects of audio and visual perception have shown consistently is that those variables are as important to the experince of the individual as the physics, and in many ways, more important.
Click to expand...


----------



## terry j

I've been wanting to share this video, and now recently it has been mentioned about our senses fooling us it seems a perfect excuse to do so!!

quite fascinating actually


----------



## recruit

Very good indeed Terry, the mind can play some serious tricks on our perception of reality and that video just proves it, so can it do it with our perception of sound, I have seen power cables go for thousands of $ but can it be justified in real terms, I very much doubt it but there must be people buying them or else they would not be made.

I have made my own power cables up for my PJ because of the length and used high quality plugs and sockets/cable but they only cost me not more than $30 to make, on my amps and other equipment I have bought well shielded cables but they did not cost me that much.

It is the Analogue Interconnects where I have spent my money as I do hear noticeable differences between more and less expensive cables.

Or do I :rubeyes:


----------



## Moonfly

Thats a great video :T Thing is, if you 'think' there is a difference, whether there is or not, and derive pleasure and satisfaction from that, then there is a difference. That difference may well only be in your mind (or you could say the lack of difference is in another's mind), but how often do we say in AV that your own view, however derived, is final. One could argue that even a placebo effect is in fact an effect worth paying lots of money for, if one is so inclined. Are all things merely relative?


----------



## terry j

what I find the most amazing is what we throw out (because we hold onto it the most strongly).

In other words, in this example we would rather decide that people can change size in front of us than see the room as skewed!!

Isn't that amazing?? To us, it is more logical and natural to have people altering size as we watch!!

Wow.

I wonder if there is anyone at all in history who would see that video and NOT see the people change size, ie see the room properly. (in audio, there is always the argument that 'you have not tested everyone on earth', same deal here)

Get what you're saying moonfly, but the 'trouble' is that these people (assuming in whatever instance we are talking about that it IS 'only in their mind') cannot even conceive that possibility and so try and 'push' it onto others.

The best that can be done is to at least put out there the upgrades that DO make a difference. After that, each goes their own way.

But there always needs to be that counter. Sure, buy the amp that has the gold plated fascia if you wish, but please don't try and tell those 'who don't know yet' that it sounds better because the gold purifies the quantums. (you know what I mean)


----------



## Moonfly

I fully agree with you Terry. People who say that high end cables are night and day better either sell them or own them. Both arent likely to rubbish their product are they. I think people need to express opinion more rather than state fact, generally speaking, when it comes to cables, simply because the hard evidence isnt there for us to see.


----------



## goyop

lcailo - I am only responding because you directly quoted me and had some concerns. I mean no offense in what I say but I have no clue what that long paragraph was about. Allow me to clarify what I was trying to say: 
1) This is all about power cables
2) If someone says that a number 8 super duper power cable made their music sound warmer/better because of super conductor properties and NASA level shielding, etc., my point, in case you want to take issue with it, is that I can explain scientifically the limits of this situation and what is physically and electrically possible. So per my earlier posts I can inform a person how to optimize the electrical supply to their AV system and then beyond that there is no cable in the world that can improve upon the basic optimization. Should they choose to try something more somehow hoping to suspend the laws of physics that is their issue. If you even read my posts you would see that the arguments were reasoned from start to finish. I had nothing to prove but only explained step by step the limitations and possibilities of a home audio power supply. I have no idea how you got into my head and nailed down my "priori". Next time I invite you to ask for clarification before you run off on a philosophical rebuttal of things I never said nor intended to say.
3) Thank you for informing me of the purpose of science. If you remember in an earlier post I made it very clear that any true expert is open to learning new things but that order and repeatability were necessary. Science at its core is about understanding how the universe around us works. I think we all learned that in primary school. I have never met a person be they scientist, artist, scholar, businessman, clergyman, or whatever who was not biased. It is literally impossible to be without bias. However a good scientist can look at data and outcomes and adjust their bias if the evidence is there.

My statement about hoping that no one on this forum spend a lot of money on power cables is basically what I believe you said. I don't care to "evangelize" about power cords as you say. But I am not able to say that if it brings a smile to their face then the universe is a better place. Waste is waste. Whether the money would be better spent on other parts of a system that might actually cause an improvement or in a completely altruistic vein, use the money for a worthy cause.


----------



## lcaillo

I prefer to not have you nor anyone else deciding for me what is waste. If someone decides to spend money on jewelry or what I consider ridiculously expensive shoes or accessories like a purse, I have no say in the matter. To me it is wasteful. That does not mean that it does not serve a purpose to that person. 

It is our job to point out the facts as best we can find and discover them. If someone still chooses to buy an expensive power cable, it is not my concern beyond pointing out what I know about the matter.


----------



## Jasonpctech

What a great reply Anthony.

"" The short answer: yes it will make a difference
Justification: High end power cables have better connectors, shielded wire, and better wire (higher conductivity and flexibility).

But is the effect audible: --> Ah, there's core of the argument.""

I have always said at the very least you get long use hence a better investment, reliable connections and less load on your equipment due to lower gauge wires I also prefer to make all my runs the same length within reason. I'm happy I bought all my cabling before copper prices skyrocketed.


----------



## mjcmt

I find that high-end cables do make a difference but a few factors determine there effectiveness. You must have a high enough resolution system to hear the differences, and some equipment is more responsive to cabling changes. The better the cable the subtler the difference, with the best bang for the buck being as you start to climb the price latter.


----------



## terry j

so better means a more subtle difference, till we reach no difference. then it is the best?

excellent, will stick with stock thanks!


----------



## mjcmt

terry j said:


> so better means a more subtle difference, till we reach no difference. then it is the best?
> 
> excellent, will stick with stock thanks!


When you say 'stock' do you mean 16 gauge lamp cord (or smaller) for speaker wire and the thin interconnects w/ tin RCA plugs that come w/ DVD players. Your system may not have the resolution necessary to hear the differences in cabling if stock sounds best...or room acoustics and your hearing is blurring the details that can be noticed.


----------



## Andre

"To each their own"
"Whatever: floats your boat, tosses your salad, pings your pong, milks your goat"
Telefunken 8 track...lamp cord
Krell master reference monoblock amps..you would think Krell would use nothing but the best, BPT and JPS labs would have your think different. Will you hear the difference? As said before it depends on Every link in the audio chain, your room, your hearing, the recording. AND speaking of recording, the blur/warmth/lack of warmth...etc etc etc could be intentional when it was mixed, who knows.

Bottom line, if you have the money and it makes your happy....


----------



## terry j

mjcmt said:


> When you say 'stock' do you mean 16 gauge lamp cord (or smaller) for speaker wire and the thin interconnects w/ tin RCA plugs that come w/ DVD players. Your system may not have the resolution necessary to hear the differences in cabling if stock sounds best...or room acoustics and your hearing is blurring the details that can be noticed.


nahh, was just a gag, you said 'the better the cable the subtler the difference', I just extended that ad idioticus.

Having said that, you at least got me right, I do not care one whit for cables and the effects reported.

I use simple logic (I'm a simple guy!), if these oft reported amazing improvements were as real as people think they are, then why do they never stand up to the slightest scrutiny? That alone tells me that my money is best spent elsewhere.

Having said that I have organised and participated in DBTs that included expensive ICs and speaker cable (not power cords tho IIRC).

Let's just say those results did nothing to change my thoughts that bang for buck is gained elsewhere. (ha, that was pretty diplomatic eh??!!)

Re the resolution question, well that's a pretty old argument, yawn. In any case, the guys who (when tested properly) can no longer identify their cables when they do not know which is which usually have it done on their system, meaning any reference to the resolution or otherwise of my system is rather moot no?

In any case, you could very well be right regarding my system, room and ears, have no problem with that.


----------



## recruit

This thread is nearly on the verge of closing due to type of posting it is causing :rolleyesno:

I think people who give there experiences from a scientific background haven given there opinion but it is up to individuals whether they want to upgrade from stock cables or not, I must admit I use some more expensive power cables on my equipment just because I have had interference from so many cables near each other and replacing with better shielded cables made the problems go away, so I am happy with my purchase and they did not cost the earth, whether I have spent over the odds does not bother me as I am happy and that is the main thing.

There will always be 2 sides to every cable debate and we need to accept and respect other members opinions, there is the facts already for them to read and it is up to the individual whether they want to go with after market cabling or not, but we should not let it turn into arguments as we are all adults here.


----------



## 4U2NVME

From what I have read and seen, and used. As long as the wire is a suitable gauge, insulation is appropriate and your not using absolute junk from a dollar store or Wal-Mart, money is better spent on better components.

So yes, I would say they do make a difference, and the difference would be to your pocket book and the value of the shareholders stock in the Company you purchased those high priced cables from. :spend:


----------



## mjcmt

One of the most important aspects of cable design (besides the metallurgy that determines capacitance, inductance, and resistance that greatly effects the sound) is the dielectric that insulates the leads, whether it be vinyl, polypropylene, teflon, lacquer or others, all the way to a vacuum. These alter the sound as much as the lead metallurgy itself. On of my favorite budget cables is Kimber Kable's 4tc & 8tc w/ Teflon dialectric.


----------



## Jason_Nolan

IRC is near zero, I'd say they don't greatly affect the sound. As long as you're using a thick enough guage appropriate to the distance of the run for the power being transfered, it's negligible.

This thread will go on forever without any solution because they didn't ask does it make measurable difference you can prove, but left it subjective. 

Of course it makes a difference if you spend the money and want it to make a difference.


----------



## Lucky7!

mjcmt said:


> One of the most important aspects of cable design (besides the metallurgy that determines capacitance, inductance, and resistance that greatly effects the sound) is the dielectric that insulates the leads, whether it be vinyl, polypropylene, teflon, lacquer or others, all the way to a vacuum. These alter the sound as much as the lead metallurgy itself.


I've read every paper and test on cap design I can find since Jung/Marsh and have seen no evidence that would support that statement in signal carrying conductors, let alone something so far removed from the signal path as a power cord.

I have also seen zero evidence that the conductor material, apart from resistance and in most cases the differences here are small (6% difference between Ag and Cu) has any effect on the signal either.


----------



## recruit

There is some ridiculous pricing out there for mains cables and I really dont see how they can justify selling them for so much money :rolleyesno:


----------



## gsmollin

Oh my, this thread has become a "sticky". 

Well I can answer the OP's question categorically. "Yes, high-end power cables DO make a difference... to your wallet!"


----------



## merc

If you buy a quality component, it will come with a power cord which has been designed and tested to allow it to perform at its' best. So no, I have not seen/heard any real cost effective improvements by going with a megabucks power cable.
My one exception to this was with the power connection between an outboard power station and its' DVD Player. Then again, the improvement might have been due to the sucky original cable that came with the duo?

In my experience, when it comes to power tweeks, your money is best served by installing a dedicated power line, power conditioner/power surge unit.


----------



## mjcmt

If this is true, why do I hear noticeable sonic differences between cabling as I change them? Why are some pieces of electronics more affected by changing PC, interconnects, and speaker cabling? Why does a high capacitance interconnect alter the sound so much? Say what you will, but I hear a noticeable difference, and the differences are not all positive from piece to piece. And I'm not talking about mega-buck cabling either. I will stay on the path that I'm on. 

Balancing your system w/ all the available tools is important to fine tune your system. This includes equipment choice, cabling, isolation racks, placement and room accoustics. I'm enjoying the improvements to audiophile equipment I've owned in the past and to the modest equipment I own now. YMMV

Enjoy!


----------



## lcaillo

mjcmt said:


> One of the most important aspects of cable design (besides the metallurgy that determines capacitance, inductance, and resistance that greatly effects the sound) is the dielectric that insulates the leads, whether it be vinyl, polypropylene, teflon, lacquer or others, all the way to a vacuum. These alter the sound as much as the lead metallurgy itself. On of my favorite budget cables is Kimber Kable's 4tc & 8tc w/ Teflon dialectric.


Metallurgy does not determine capacitance. Capacitance is an easily measured parameter that is affected by the dielectric, the geometry, and spacing. If you have some references to the effect of metallurgy on capacitance, please provide them, but I have never seen nor heard any suggestion of this in many years of study and experience in this field. Even if it was a factor, capactiance in a power cable seems rather irrelevant, considering, as A9X suggests, the location in the circuit.

Similarly, metallurgy does not determine inductunce in a conductor. Again, geometry and spacing determine inductance. Certain metalurgical properties in cores and similar devices do affect inductance, such as the use of ferrite beads to increase inductance, but the the metallury of the conductor is a completely different matter. Again, inductance is not mysterious and can be measured, but is not a significant factor in power cables with respect to the conductors themselves.

Metallurgy can affect resistance, but is hardly a determining factor. The differences in resistance due to metallurgical properties among copper conductors in power cables is so small that it would be hard to measure, particularly over short distances like we are using with power cables.

Dielectric does affect capacitance. However, I have never seen any data that suggests that the properties of dielectrics have any relation to sound, given the same capacitance and other parameters (and others may vary beyond just capacitance, so cap selection in some circuits is a consideration) for a capacitor. In speaker cables, capacitance can affect the sound, and over long lengths something like the Kimber cables you mention do have somewhat more capacitance than other cables, and lower inductance, IIRC. That is likely far more due to the geometry than the dielectric or metallurgy, and I would be surprised if Ray Kimber would debate that. Whether there is an effect on the sound is another debate and a case MIGHT be made for such effects on speaker wiring of significant lengths, but in power cables like we are discussing in this thread, it is far less likely.

You are welcome to your opinion, but I know of no support for your statements about metallurical effects on the parameters you claim. While there may be much we do not know, these effects seem quite unlikely, and at a level that would affect sound due to a power cable, even less so.


----------



## lcaillo

mjcmt said:


> If this is true, why do I hear noticeable sonic differences between cabling as I change them? Why are some pieces of electronics more affected by changing PC, interconnects, and speaker cabling? Why does a high capacitance interconnect alter the sound so much? Say what you will, but I hear a noticeable difference, and the differences are not all positive from piece to piece. And I'm not talking about mega-buck cabling either. I will stay on the path that I'm on.
> 
> Balancing your system w/ all the available tools is important to fine tune your system. This includes equipment choice, cabling, isolation racks, placement and room accoustics. I'm enjoying the improvements to audiophile equipment I've owned in the past and to the modest equipment I own now. YMMV
> 
> Enjoy!


I am the first to admit that not enough has been done to try to understand what it is that many are hearing that is different, if anything, and why. I have made that point many times. I have also made the point that I have measured differences in response with cabling and that there may be some differences that are audible. IME and IMO those differences are usually only a factor with very extreme cases of cable length, intentional design alterations to the signal, and are rarely significant in most systems to the anywhere near the degree many claim to experience them. My experience, which includes behavioral and perceptual research in addition to many years in the electronics business, is also that it all human perception is highly affected by expectation and preference, as well as many other variables. That includes NOT hearing differences.

The vast majority of the research in this field points much more to bias, placebo, and expectation effects accounting for most of your experienced differenences than the differences in cables. That said, we could do much more interesting research to discover where the limits of perceived differences are for individuals, specific systems, and specific types of products and designs. I am not one to throw the baby out with the bathwater and tell you that you are not experiencing what you are nor that there is no possibility that some of what you are claiming to hear is actually present. What I will tell you is that nearly all of the evidence and our understanding of the technologies involved points in different directions than those you assume. 

Again, you are welcome to your opinions and beliefs. What we would like to do at Home Theater Shack is all learn more about what are beliefs and what are facts and be able to consider many views. Both sides of this debate seem to have an inability to accept that what we often consider facts are mediated by our personal epistemology. Just be careful what you try to pass on as facts, particularly about matters relating to hard science like metallurgy and primary electrical parameters. Also, some recognition of the well documented psycho-acoustical issues involved in what you perceive (as opposed to hear) might make your views more credible.


----------



## mjcmt

lcaillo said:


> Metallurgy does not determine capacitance. Capacitance is an easily measured parameter that is affected by the dielectric, the geometry, and spacing. If you have some references to the effect of metallurgy on capacitance, please provide them, but I have never seen nor heard any suggestion of this in many years of study and experience in this field. Even if it was a factor, capactiance in a power cable seems rather irrelevant, considering, as A9X suggests, the location in the circuit.
> 
> Similarly, metallurgy does not determine inductunce in a conductor. Again, geometry and spacing determine inductance. Certain metalurgical properties in cores and similar devices do affect inductance, such as the use of ferrite beads to increase inductance, but the the metallury of the conductor is a completely different matter. Again, inductance is not mysterious and can be measured, but is not a significant factor in power cables with respect to the conductors themselves.
> 
> Metallurgy can affect resistance, but is hardly a determining factor. The differences in resistance due to metallurgical properties among copper conductors in power cables is so small that it would be hard to measure, particularly over short distances like we are using with power cables.
> 
> Dielectric does affect capacitance. However, I have never seen any data that suggests that the properties of dielectrics have any relation to sound, given the same capacitance and other parameters (and others may vary beyond just capacitance, so cap selection in some circuits is a consideration) for a capacitor. In speaker cables, capacitance can affect the sound, and over long lengths something like the Kimber cables you mention do have somewhat more capacitance than other cables, and lower inductance, IIRC. That is likely far more due to the geometry than the dielectric or metallurgy, and I would be surprised if Ray Kimber would debate that. Whether there is an effect on the sound is another debate and a case MIGHT be made for such effects on speaker wiring of significant lengths, but in power cables like we are discussing in this thread, it is far less likely.
> 
> You are welcome to your opinion, but I know of no support for your statements about metallurical effects on the parameters you claim. While there may be much we do not know, these effects seem quite unlikely, and at a level that would affect sound due to a power cable, even less so.


I used the word metallurgy as a general term so I wouldn't be wordy. Sorry about the confusion. And you obviously haven't read all the white papers, because I have read papers that support what I am hearing as far as inductance and capacitance, however it is attained in cable design. Sorry, I do hear a difference.


----------



## lcaillo

Please post links to these papers. We hear reference to much research and many papers and publications in these debates, but rarely do we discuss them specifically enough to judge their value. I have also read many "white papers" over thirty years in this business. Many are not much more than speculation and marketing hype. In order to judge their value, however, we have to know what they are and read them ourselves. Again, you have provided your opinion and your esperience. No one has a right to deny your experience. If you want others to accept your assumptions about the source of that experience and what you claim to be the case as facts, there needs to be some reasonable support for those positions if anyone is to take them seriously. It is one thing to suggest what MIGHT be an explanation, and what you BELIEVE to be the case, but to pass things off as facts that are not can be very misleading and we are not interested in having our readers misled in any way. 

If metallurgy is not the term you intended, what did you mean?


----------



## merc

All I can do is report my lifelong experience seen and heard with my OWN eyes and ears... not yours.

As a long time pharma ho, i know all about placebo effect and not to say that could be responsible for someone's perception, but hey, I've been impacted by it and had my own cost-benefit bias exposed during some blind interconnect testing years ago.

Now, when I test different components/tweeks, I always use my kids to do my own blind test and make my decisions on those perceptions... which btw, are reality to each of us. 

So, since our personal perception is each of our realities, if we hear/see an improvement, then the tweek is worth the money to us personally.


----------



## lcaillo

No on can deny the experience and perception of another. We can do more than report that experience. We can discuss and try to understand what is affecting the perception that is the basis of experience. We can use reasoning and the knowledge that has preceded us to learn more about that perception. I continue to maintain that there is much to be learned on both sides of this debate, and anyone who feels that their experience is not biased by prior knowledge, by personal beliefs, and by incomplete knowledge and that there is nothing to be learned from the other side is simply mistaken.

These are centuries old debates. We have better tools than ever to refine our understanding of perception and measure physical parameters that affect it. My point is and always will be that we need to continue to dig deeper and document more precisely where the limits are in perception and technology interacts with those limits. It is simply not sufficient IMO to accept that our perception is reality or to accept that we know enough to conclude that those claiming to hear differences are always wrong. Both perspectives are equally wrongheaded, IMO, and neither leads to expanded knowledge.


----------



## merc

I think that where I and the physical properties guys part ways is with each individual's specific propensity to certain frequencies and their preference to each's amplitude. And, most importantly, ALL of these tweaks are specific to each system's components and even to the type of use each system gets.

So, IMO for example, a speaker which sounds shrill to you might sound incredibly detailed to me.

So, IMO, with all audio and video components and tweaks, YMMV.


----------



## lcaillo

Individual differences are an issue in perceptual and behavioral research, and certainly play a part here. Those differences exist and are even greater when it comes to preference and prior knowledge and expectation than in actual physical differences. Everyone brings something different to each "reality" that results in very different conclusions about that reality. the objectivist's perspective may be just as biased as the subjectivist, particularly if he believes that he is completely unbiased. It is never the case. At least the objectivist's do understand that what they percieve is not the same as the real world.

YMMV is perfectly true. What is not acceptable is to try to convince someone that your perception will be valid for them. When someone says there is a difference in power cables that reveals some detail that was not heard before, and the vast majority of knowledge suggests that there are likely no such differences, it is very reasonable to question those assumptions and to expect some rational explanation.


----------



## Andre

If everything was the same for everyone we would have nothing to talk about


----------



## merc

> YMMV is perfectly true. What is not acceptable is to try to convince someone that your perception will be valid for them. When someone says there is a difference in power cables that reveals some detail that was not heard before, and the vast majority of knowledge suggests that there are likely no such differences, it is very reasonable to question those assumptions and to expect some rational explanation.


All perceptions can be questioned... doh... for any and all reasons.

Still, it comes down to the perceiver and his/her desire to hear/see that improvement versus the cost to do so.

BTW, just FYI, I am mostly a non-tweak guy just due to my own double blind testing of such...... but, YMMV.


----------



## Senn20

Just to add my two cents to the debate here:

I few years ago I was selling a CD player I was no longer using. Since my new CD player, which I'd become acquainted with for some weeks, didn't come with a power cable itself I was using the cable from the old CD player.

'Course I had to pack that one up to ship with the CD player I was selling. There was nothing special about this cable. It looked like any other plain jane computer cable. Certainly not expensive. 

So I dug around and found an old computer power cable. When I plugged it into the back of the newer CD player I wasn't expecting to hear _any_ difference since it looked basically identical to the other one. 

But when I started playing a CD...ICK! What happened to the bass? The midrange is smeared. What the? 

Granted, the _average_ listener probably wouldn't have been able to discern a difference, but I could hear it easily. Night and day? No. The effect that computer cable of unknown origin had on the sound of my source though was _unpleasant._ 

What I ended up doing was buying a power cable somebody built from nice thick 14g wire, shielded, with hospital grade connectors for $65. Not expensive compared to a high end power cable. When I plugged it in for the first time I sighed with relief. My sound was back.


----------



## mjcmt

Senn20 said:


> Just to add my two cents to the debate here:
> 
> I few years ago I was selling a CD player I was no longer using. Since my new CD player, which I'd become acquainted with for some weeks, didn't come with a power cable itself I was using the cable from the old CD player.
> 
> 'Course I had to pack that one up to ship with the CD player I was selling. There was nothing special about this cable. It looked like any other plain jane computer cable. Certainly not expensive.
> 
> So I dug around and found an old computer power cable. When I plugged it into the back of the newer CD player I wasn't expecting to hear _any_ difference since it looked basically identical to the other one.
> 
> But when I started playing a CD...ICK! What happened to the bass? The midrange is smeared. What the?
> 
> Granted, the _average_ listener probably wouldn't have been able to discern a difference, but I could hear it easily. Night and day? No. The effect that computer cable of unknown origin had on the sound of my source though was _unpleasant._
> 
> What I ended up doing was buying a power cable somebody built from nice thick 14g wire, shielded, with hospital grade connectors for $65. Not expensive compared to a high end power cable. When I plugged it in for the first time I sighed with relief. My sound was back.


Thank you for sharing your experiences. I notice a difference too, even with various Chinese made budget OEM factory detachable power cords. You can definitely tailor the sound even with these budget PCs.


----------

