# Receiver v/s Amp volume response



## organm (Dec 5, 2009)

Hi,

Newbie question.

I am currently using a Yamaha RX-V100 receiver, about 100w*5.

When I crank the volume to -40dB it is at a reasonable listening level but at -30dB it is getting pretty loud but not too loud.

I was wondering that if I got say the XPA-5 200w*5 and pre-outed the yamaha to this would I notice a volume response difference?

For example would I get a quicker volume response using the XPA-5, in other words would I notice a higher volume at -40db compared to the yamaha.

I have never used an amp so I am try to understand the differences in lay terms. From what I have been reading on this site you generally get more headroom, separation of channels, clarity, hear things you may not have heard before, so generally better quality sound, which is fantastic.

But what about volume response, does an amp make a difference?

Please note that I do not necessarily want louder music but interested in if I get more response at lower volume levels.

Thanks.

Mark


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Dont think of more watts being louder although you will notice a little more volume, what you may notice is more clarity because of less distortion. What speakers are you driving?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
On most receivers, -40 is 40 decibels below reference. This is based on THX Receivers where 0db is reference level. Very few listen to content that loud. However, some do depending on room size and speaker efficiency. I usually listen around -20 for TV Shows I really intend to watch, -30 for general viewing, -10 for Blu Rays if I want to shake the house.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## organm (Dec 5, 2009)

Tony,

Polk RTiA9's for fronts.
Polk CSiA6 for centre
Polk FXiA6's for rears.



Mark


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I think you would defiantly notice a difference running even just the mains on an external amp. You will release the receiver of much of the load going that route. Distortion is the number one reason most people are not happy with how their speakers sound.
The Polk RTiA9 are very nice speakers by the way. Good choice


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Dont think of more watts being louder although you will notice a little more volume, what you may notice is more clarity because of less distortion. What speakers are you driving?


Why? The guy has 40 db of headroom before his amp even comes close to issues. Reliability is where I'd put my concerns if any. Yamaha is a good brand so I think you are fine there too. 

There are points where external amps are good investments. This isn't that point. 

I personally think you can do better than the Polk RTI series. SVS, Ascends, Behringer, B&W would be better IMO. That said I've never heard a Polk I preferred.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Your forgetting the restrictions of the receivers power supply. I highly doupt that the Yamaha can drive all channels at 100watts its most likely less than 65watts all channels driven.


----------



## organm (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks guys,

Two opposite views on the Polk's, that's the great thing about this hobby, if we all bought the same brands there would only be one speaker manufacturer, interesting thought. I'm sure the polk's are not the best speakers in the world but neither are the the worst. I have them, think they are ok, but that was not the issue here.

Most people who use receivers and then switch to an outboard amp seem to be thrilled with the move. A few are less impressed but they seem to be the minority.

I guess I am just asking the questions to determine if such an investment is worth it. 

Maybe, and perhaps naively I just thought that by getting an external amp like the XPA-5 I would notice an immediate and discernable difference in performance over the Yamaha. A bit like replacing a V4 car with a V6 (reasonably analogy?) or maybe the difference is more subtle?

If there was no difference or the probability of a difference was very low then why would you do it. If that is the case then I accept that as I need value for money for these investments as I am not a bottomless pit.

More commnets welcome.

Mark


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Think of it this way, The receivers amps are rated to output 100watts per channel. The power supply is not large enough (very common in most receivers) so when the soundtrack calls for all channels to deliver even 3/4 of their maximum rated output. The receivers power supply is going to struggle maintaining the power required to drive them so what happens is the sound produced will be distorted (not necessarily so bad that you really notice it) but if you were to take just the front speakers and power them externally like I do with my speakers. You will hear a difference as I did and my Onkyo 805 is not a slouch as it has a huge power supply.


----------



## organm (Dec 5, 2009)

Tony,

The option of externally powering the fronts has been suggested by both Jack and Bob and let the receiver do the rest. If I went down this path then I would probably get the XPA-2 as this seems to be a very well regarded amp. The advantage with this option is that it probably delivers much increased tho channel performance, which would be great.

I certainly have learn't alot on this forum in a couple of weeks.

Mark


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
As far as brand new Hifi amplifiers, the XPA-2 is about impossible to beat at its price. Especially with it being on sale currently.

The XPA-2's power supply(1.2 kVA 45,000uf) for 2 channels will be more powerful than the entire 5 channels of your receiver. It truly is a win-win. You get better sound for Stereo music listening and give more power to the remaining speakers being powered by the receiver.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Hey Mark, just get the new Emotiva XPR-7 when available. :bigsmile:

* You won't have any more wondering questions with that baby. :bigsmile:

~ And just make sure your house's electrical wiring is in order. 

Bob


----------



## organm (Dec 5, 2009)

Bob,

Yes, definitely no issues with this one.


Mark


----------



## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

organm said:


> Bob,
> 
> Yes, definitely no issues with this one.
> 
> ...


Lol.


----------



## organm (Dec 5, 2009)

Bob,

You have to start wondering when ego starts to take over. However this would surely be a one stop purchase. A definite keeper.

Logic would tell me that this amp would be more expensive to run than the smaller UPA 7*125 AB amp. So not great from an environmental perspective.

How efficient are the H class amps compared to the AB amps?

Thanks.

Mark


----------



## organm (Dec 5, 2009)

Bob,

How would the smaller rears go powered by this beast?


Mark


----------



## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

Mark, please, be down to Earth here.

That big new amp from Emotiva is for specially designed Huge Home Theater rooms, not for people like you and I.
And you need a special circuit for it, with a 220 Volts wall receptacle. 

Do you have a very precise question that will benefit you in your actual system setup?
Are you happy with your actual setup, or are you unhappy?
What seems to be the actual problem, if you even have one to begin with?
More power will always buy you more happyness in your guts, but not necessarily in your ears. :bigsmile:

Cheers,
Bob


----------



## organm (Dec 5, 2009)

Bob,

Thanks for the reality check on this one.

Mark


----------



## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

No sweat mate.


----------



## organm (Dec 5, 2009)

Bob,

I know if have hit the forum with many questions over the past couple of weeks, some probably a little dumb and repetitive but it has all been a calculated fact finding mission. I tend to over research things so that I can make the best decision. Your reaction on the XPR-7 amp is a good example, clearly that amp would be overkill for someone like me so I can wind back my expectations which helps my final decision, if in fact I buy an amp at all. As suggested a few times the Onkyo 906 on it's own would probably be fine.

Who knows, I may just stick with the Yamaha for the next year. After all, it sounds pretty good to me but after nine years and the thought of getting the new HD movie formats you get a little trigger happy for a new piece of equipment.

Thanks for all your help so far, I will probably slow down now.

Mark


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Mark, I had (and still do but is up in my living room) a Yamaha rx v995 Yamaha's flagship next to the Z series from 1999 I thought the same thing about upgrading my receiver as you in that I thought the improvement would be minimal I was so blown away at the sound quality difference between the 995 and my current Onkyo 805. To say it blew me away would be fairly correct.
The new mid to high end receivers use much better DACs and other processing that is far superior to what was used in the late 90's. The amplification section of the 906 alone is a real sound improvment for sure over the Yamaha you have.


----------



## organm (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks Tony,

Your comments give me great confidence in moving forward. I have now narrowed my choice to choosing between:

1) Onkyo 5007 $3700 (new)
2) Onkyo 3007 $3200 (new)
3) Onkyo 906 $2800 (new/demo, not 100% sure but full warranty either way)

I have a slight preference for the two newer models because of the additional features eg more HDMI, seemless internet radio and PC interface, firmware upgradeable. I have just read a ONKYO feature comparison between the 3007 and 5007 and from what I can see the only real difference is the Toroidial power supply. How important is this? Also, would I be better off saving the $500 and investing in an XPA-2 down the track if I found the 3007 lacking (Though I suspect that I would not find it lacking).

But I do recognise that the 906 is the best bang for the buck at $2800. I am just a little stuck on the new features in the 3007 and 5007.

Any views.


Thanks

Mark


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Toroidal power supply's are regarded to be the cleanest power available for an amp they are very efficient and run much cooler. If you can swing the cash I personally think it is worth it. My Samson servo 4 channel amp that I use as an external amp for my mains has a toroidal power supply and It runs very cool and without any signal there is absolutely no noise coming out of the speakers.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I would get either the 906 or the 5007. I totally understand wanting the newest features. With the 5007, you also get a 32 Bit Chipset. It really is a fantastic AVR that should serve you well for years.

The 906 will provide you most of the 5007's experience, but you only live once so just go for it. It seems like the one you want the most. There is also something to be said for the experience of buying a new piece of gear brand new rather than demo. It is also awesome the 5007 has dual subwoofer outputs as well. A true centerpiece.

If it is between the 3007 and the 906, I would absolutely get the 906. The 906 does offer internet radio as well and has a stouter power supply.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## organm (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks guys,

Some thinking to do.

Just a couple of final points to get views on:

1) The fact that the 906 only has four HDMI points may be an issues. I am currently using three devices with HDMI, Apple TV, PVR and Blue Ray and my Fox connection may be upgraded to HDMI which will be four. Is there a problem in the future if I add another device and it is HDMI but I can only connect through say coax and component, does this limit performance?

2) Given the 906 is now a run-out model there will probably not be any more upgrades so perhaps the upgradable firmware option is not so much an issue?

Thanks.

Mark


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

You have options you can buy an external remote controllable 4 port HDMI switcher for well under $50 so if you do need another HDMI input that would be your best option.
HDMI is the only way to get the uncompressed audio formats directly to the receiver and you can not get 1080p over component just 1080i.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Considering Blu Ray is the only current component able to carry True-HD and DTS-MA, the answer would be no. With your other components, the signal is Dolby Digital or DTS. And with the Reon Chip, it does a very good job of transcoding Component inputs and Composite via the HDMI output.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## organm (Dec 5, 2009)

Thanks guys,

Sounds like the HDMI limitation is not a huge problem.

The 906 is looking better by the day (still like the idea of the latest model, I will have to get over that)

Mark


----------



## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

organm said:


> Bob,
> 
> I know if have hit the forum with many questions over the past couple of weeks, some probably a little dumb and repetitive but it has all been a calculated fact finding mission. I tend to over research things so that I can make the best decision. Your reaction on the XPR-7 amp is a good example, clearly that amp would be overkill for someone like me so I can wind back my expectations which helps my final decision, if in fact I buy an amp at all. As suggested a few times the Onkyo 906 on it's own would probably be fine.
> 
> ...


LOL. One of the best post so far from you Mark. :bigsmile:
Only you, knows best what to do. It is after all your own personal pursuit in this world of audio, video and new technologies. 

Cheers mate,
Bob

P.S. Get the 906, it will last you ten years of happyness. :bigsmile: ...Time to upgrade that old Yamaha RX-V1000 receiver. 
And the price difference from the 906 to the 5007 is just not worth it. Get the best speakers you can afford instead; this is where you'll truly reap the biggest benefits of all, after some acoustic room treatments.


----------



## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

organm said:


> Thanks guys,
> 
> Sounds like the HDMI limitation is not a huge problem.
> 
> ...


Still at it Mark... :bigsmile:

Hey, that's just fine mate, I totally understand your dilemma, been there myself.

* Here's my philosophy on audio equipment: When I was rich (because there was a time when I truly was), I was still conservative with my money, even more so now, cause I lost it all. Don't ask me how please. 
You are actually doing exactly what you should be doing, asking opinions around from people like us. 
I read all the audio forums about all Onkyo models starting in 2007, when Onkyo released the first receiver with Dolby TrueHD & DTS-HD MA integrated audio decoders, the TX-SR605.
I am way up to date with their newest top of the line, the TX-NR5007.

*** Right now, in the actual world we live in, in this very present moment of actuality, the Onkyo TX-NR906 not only represent the best value there is in an A/V receiver, but it is also ALL you really need to get top Audio & Video performance, period! You really don't need (I don't) more than a 7.1-channel audio system setup (just use a Y adaptor to add one more sub, and make it a 7.2-channel sytem).

Audyssey DSX is for me a jump start tentative in this economy, no more.
In my years, I experiment with 11.3-channel setups (not discrete though), and I'm back now with a 7.2-channel setup. My room is about 24 feet long, by 14 feet wide, and 8 feet high ceilling. There is also a door opening to the rest of the house (the reason that I'm using two 15" subs).
My two last receivers are the Onkyo TX-SR805 and the TX-SR876.
The only reason for me to upgrade to the TX-NR906 would be if I have very good high resolution speakers, because I already know it's the only way you can compare the 876 vs the 906.
I love my speakers with their low frequency in the 24hz region, but I cross them at 80hz anyway.
And they are not the most revealing speakers around, they are just too smooth for that, with their Super Hyperbolic Dome tweeters, with a multi-cated shaped dome. They are made of durable cotton fibers that are butyl damped. But, they are simply NOT high resolution drivers, they are too old for that, made in the time of CDs. The reason why I went with my second receiver, the TX-SR876.
But I do know that the 906 sounds better if you do indeed have the right speakers. Are you following me Mark?
And the 5007 for that much money over the 906 will gain you NOTHING in sound quality, but only in additional features, which in my book are not worthy in that price difference.

But, if you are going to use a 9.2-channel setup in your room (if your room is very big to start with),
and you like to experiment with Audyssey Width or Height channels, without giving up the Back surround channels, please, get the 5007, and do install those two additional Width speakers (they are the most recommended ones and make the best difference) in your room, if the space allows it, as they are much more tricky to install than the Height channels.

So, you see Mark, it's all about your personal use of the features that you can truly benefit in your own space. And that mate, only you can answer that one. 

Hey, not bad for someone that thought you were insisting too much with your repetitive questions,
but , that's why I'm here for, so, what do I know? 

My priorities:

#1. My family.
#2. My software: Blu-ray discs, SACDs, CDs, etc.
#3. My speakers, on front, then on the side, and finally in the rear. And of course, that includes the subs.
#4. My room, with a carpet, drapes, and some home made acoustic treatments.
#5. My audio and video sources.
#6. My A/V Receiver, or Pre/Pro with Amps.
#7. My screen display.
#8. My cables: HDMI, interconnects and speaker wires.
#9. My remote control.
#10. After all is done, my ears and my eyes. :bigsmile:

* Am I missing something?


----------



## organm (Dec 5, 2009)

Cheers Bob,

Thanks for putting it all down.

I used to have a few bucks in a previous life (running my own business in Sydney, Australia). Didn't lose it though, just whittled away over the years but still in a solid position. Work for the government now so no chance of getting rich unless I win it.

I agree on driving your dollar further and getting value for money. The 906 would work fine and frankly would probably be more than I need or would appreciate. 

I will eventually make a decision but for now I have enough information. Will have the new rear speakers set-up tomorrow as the cable guy is coming to install the cabling with a couple of extra ethernet points as well. Should be fun watching Gi-Joe on Blue-Ray with the yamaha. No doubt be better with the 906.

Thanks for the advice.

Mark


----------



## Lordoftherings (Feb 8, 2009)

No real advice here Mark, but just my honest down to earth opinion, that's all.

Wish you all the best to you and your family, as well a very Merry Christmas, 

Bob


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Your forgetting the restrictions of the receivers power supply. I highly doupt that the Yamaha can drive all channels at 100watts its most likely less than 65watts all channels driven.


How often are all channels used in home theater at once? 

65 watts is still a lot of volume and far more than he is using given his statements. Plus his speaker is likely not a true 8 ohm load. So he'd might actually get 100 watts. 

The reason to upgrade here would be for the new formats and EQ features. Not lacking power reserves.


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

organm said:


> Cheers Bob,
> 
> Thanks for putting it all down.
> 
> ...


I think the 906 is a great receiver, but do you really need that much for your system? You are not even testing your current receiver. We are talking a very hot receiver too.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

lsiberian said:


> How often are all channels used in home theater at once?


More often than you think. 
Just for example my Yamaha 995 weighs 25lbs and is 110watts per ch. My Onkyo 805 weighs 52lbs and is 135watts per ch. I still noticed a slight difference when I put my mains from the Onkyo to the external Samson amp that I use now. My mains are 4ohm at 93db efficient so not hard to drive.
The Onkyo does not get any hotter than any other receiver in that class, as a matter of fact it runs much cooler than the 876 or the 805 due to its Toroidal power supply.


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> More often than you think.
> Just for example my Yamaha 995 weighs 25lbs and is 110watts per ch. My Onkyo 805 weighs 52lbs and is 135watts per ch. I still noticed a slight difference when I put my mains from the Onkyo to the external Samson amp that I use now. My mains are 4ohm at 93db efficient so not hard to drive.
> The Onkyo does not get any hotter than any other receiver in that class, as a matter of fact it runs much cooler than the 876 or the 805 due to its Toroidal power supply.


I realized the positive effects of my A500 amp by just holding it. :R
The adrenaline rush of hooking up a great amp is just incredible. Plus you get the reliability of good manufacturing practices.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The A500 is definitely the best bang for the buck amplifier going. I cannot believe Wal Mart sells it as well online. Just stunning value.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## selden (Nov 15, 2009)

(I just realized I was responding to an early post in this thread. Sorry for the confusion.)

Component video is usually limited to 1080 interlaced, and can't do progressive. Supposedly the studios are pushing for limiting future component signals to 480i/p. Digital audio (RCA and optical connections) is limited to stereo PCM and DD or DTS lossy 5.1. HDMI is needed for wide bandwidth video and multichannel PCM audio.

Receivers with more than 4 inputs are rather expensive.
An external HDMI switch would be less expensive, although some have issues.


----------

