# Is aftermarket car stereo going the way of the dinosaur?



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

I’ve been noticing a big change between now and just 2-3 year ago. Back then in my travels in and around Houston, or running errands out here in the ’burbs, I’d encounter those thundering wake-the-dead car stereos on a regular basis, passing me on the street, at stop lights, or cruising past my house.

But lately I’ve noticed that I rarely come across one anymore. 

What happened to all of them in such a short time? My speculation was that maybe MP3 players and ear buds are replacing them, providing all the sound quality and better convenience for a mere fraction of the cost.

When I first thought about opening this thread a week or so ago I figured I’d just throw out the question and see what came back from you guys, as to if car stereos are fading away, and if so why. But then I Googled car stereo decline and found some articles confirming that the aftermarket car stereos are indeed losing popularity. 

A collection of articles I surveyed from that link showed the aftermarket industry had several years of flat sales prior to 2006. Then in 2006 sales declined a staggering 13%. One article dated May of last year noted that sales of CD head units surged 13% in the first quarter of 2007, after a 24% decline in 2006, and amps and speakers increased 22% and 31%. However, a more recent article dated Feb. 2008 noted that sales had tanked by the end of 2007, dropping 4% for head units, 21% for amps, 18% for subs, and 8% for speakers.

I know we have some car stereo buffs around here. I’d be curious to think what some of you think about this, as well as your thoughts on why this is happening. I have a few of my own, that I’ll probably drop in later on.

Regards,
Wayne


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

That's funny Wayne I've been thinking the same thing. Maybe it's just not as cool anymore. Seems like all of the supped up 4 cylinder coupes have gone by the wayside too.


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## funky_waves (Jul 3, 2007)

I think one big reason is that car manufacurers are putting better and better factory sound systems in. as well as the head units being molded into the dash making it a much bigger job to put an aftermarket head unit in. Many car companies are also offering subwoofer options as well.

Another reason for a decline in "boom cars" may be better enforcement of noise violations, so either fewer poeople aren't bothering to put huge subs in there cars and or they dont turn them up where they might get a ticket.


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

Or ..... they're spending that money on HT's :bigsmile:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

For the first time EVER... I have no aftermarket headunit or system in my car. This last car (2008 Sonata) has XM Radio and a 6-Disc in-dash CD system with a sub in the rear deck. It's an Infinity system which is not half bad. Granted it ain't what I normally have, but it does the job good enough.


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## Rambo4 (Jan 25, 2008)

I think most people that were into the car stereo scene like I was for a while, have grown up. It was cool for a while, but again, you had to spend time damping your car, and isolating outside noise. Capacitors, crossovers, eq's, getting the perfect soundstage on your dash...you name it. Even back then, say 12 or so years ago, playing my favorites like AC/DC pumping out of an Alpine and two twelve inch Phoenix Golds, I was feeling a bit old hat. I think the breaking point was when I was walking down the street and two college age guys were pumping out the "Spice Girls" in their fancy new Tracker,  that I decided the car stereo industry had finally bit the dust. Or at least good taste and common sense.

On a serious note, I think the audio quality a lot of people have come to expect, since the MP3 generation has resulted a bit in "lowered expectations" and quite a few people are very happy with their car sound system as is. And see no need to upgrade their system to anything other than factory. I personally dislike a lot of factory audio in vehicles as I do most audio quality from places like iTunes. It's all personal preference. If your drive to work is that much worse because of the sound quality and you find it very annoying, I would say upgrade to something decent. If you are just interested in listening to talk radio on your way to work, like me, then save your money and invest it into something greater... like home theater...


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

funky_waves said:


> I think one big reason is... the head units being molded into the dash making it a much bigger job to put an aftermarket head unit in.
> 
> Another reason for a decline in "boom cars" may be better enforcement of noise violations, so either fewer poeople aren't bothering to put huge subs in there cars and or they dont turn them up where they might get a ticket.


Well, I don’t know of any noise regulations where I live. The head units – I think you’re on to something there. Quite frankly, they are abysmal. It’s maddening to have to sift through some menu to get to basic functions like tone and balance, using tiny buttons with illegible labeling. I don’t want to push a button six times to turn the thing up – give me a knob! :hissyfit: I honestly wonder if the people who design these things actually use them!

Julian Hirsh mentioned many years ago in a _Stereo Review_ interview that with the advent of affordable digital processing, there was going to be the temptation to pile in all kinds of features and functions whether they were actually useful or not, merely “because we can.” The result was going to be equipment that was more difficult and complicated to operate. He was right.

Not to mention - late-model head units are just plain garish and make no attempt to visually integrate into a car. It’s to the point that the only head units I would consider would be from Nakamichi, and even then because they look like a piece of stereo equipment, not because they have knobs! But I expect that even the Nak’s days are numbered, as they are primarily a SQ brand, and one of the links I found in the “car stereo decline” search in my opening post noted a severe decline in the number of SQ competitors. One guy noted his trophy was a hollow victory, as he was the only competitor in the class!

Regards,
Wayne


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

funky_waves said:


> I think one big reason is that car manufacurers are putting better and better factory sound systems in. Many car companies are also offering subwoofer options as well.





Sonnie said:


> For the first time EVER... I have not aftermarket headunit or system in my car. This last car (2008 Sonata) has XM Radio and a 6-Disc in-dash CD system with a sub in the rear deck. It's an Infinity system which is not half bad. Granted it ain't what I normally have, but it does the job good enough.


Yup. Most of the few late-model car systems I’ve heard in recent years, including my sister’s Lincoln Mark VIII and 2003 Mercury Maurader, sound pretty decent. The system in my buddy’s Acura TL is _very_ impressive, as was the one in a Volvo S40 we rented a couple of years ago. Even the system in the 1996 Buick Roadmaster we recently bought sounds very good. 

Surveying the Best New Car Sound Systems

It all adds up to “diminishing return.” When cars had horrible systems, you got some serious “bang for the buck” with a full-blown upgrade. Now, you’d be spending the same amount of money for maybe a 30% improvement, maybe only 10% or less with some of the systems in the link above. I have a $700 set of a/d/s/ component speakers that has been sitting in my garage for 5 years or more. Our Buick system doesn’t sound as good as my buddy’s Acura, but it’s good enough that it’s going to be hard to get motivated to install them, along with the Soundstream Rubicon amp I’ve had sitting out there nearly as long...

Regardless, the Buick head unit is a keeper – large buttons with legible labeling, and knobs for all tone and balance controls! :yay: If I _do_ do any car stereo upgrades in the future, that’s what my MO is going to be – tagging it on to the user-friendly stock head unit.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Rambo4 said:


> I think most people that were into the car stereo scene like I was for a while, have grown up. I think the audio quality a lot of people have come to expect, since the MP3 generation has resulted a bit in "lowered expectations" and quite a few people are very happy with their car sound system as is. And see no need to upgrade their system to anything other than factory. ...Save your money and invest it into something greater... like home theater...


I would think the ones growing up would be replaced by the ones coming up behind them, but I think you nailed it with the “MP3 generation.” Aside from the “lowered expectations” issue, most of them have few CDs to begin with, so why buy a head unit when it isn’t terribly compatible with their Zune or iPod? Indeed, I expect a good many of them are perfectly happy using their ear buds in the car, another disincentive to spring for a car stereo. 

I expect that car stereos are also competing for the youth dollar with fancy cell phones, video game consoles, computers and software, etc. There is only so much money to go around... I expect that if there is a hope for car stereos, it’s going to lie in head units with hard drives that you can download MP3’s directly into them, with easy-to-navigate controls like the iPod.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

Well I still have an aftermarket system in my ride. JL stealthbox with a TC1000 10" in it, Infinity Kappa speakers, Alpine PDX amps. But I use a modded factory head unit and unless you look very closely you cannot tell that I have anything non factory. I was never into the flashy, booming half-way down the block kind of auto sound. Just good, clean and low profile.

I think thievery is another factor in the decline of its popularity. I myself have had numerous systems stolen. Basically anyone I know who had a decent car stereo had their stuff ganked at some point. Hence the attention to keeping everything looking factory.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I agree with Josh, I think a big deterant is theft of non factory head units and amps. The big thing with todays vehicles particularly GM is that the OnStar system is integrated into the head unit and if it is removed and there is no power to it for more then a few seconds it will not work again unless its brought back to a GM dealer to be unlocked. This also makes it difficult to upgrade to an after market unit because things like OnStar and the hands free phone capabilities will not work without the factory unit.


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## superchad (Mar 7, 2008)

I think its in part many factory units are in general acceptable also growing up is a big factor and when you get involved in home audio and HT you quickly (atleast I did) realize music in the car is just background and if you think abut it that is the way it should be for safety reasons. Then almost always when I see some thump box driving down the road or hear a shrill loud ear bleeding sound from a passing car I hope to **** I didnt look like that when I was a kid......its embarasing.


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## solid7 (Jan 31, 2008)

I think that with

A) Gas at $3.50+ per gallon
B) So much other **** to spend money on

There is little $ leftover for today's youth. We are in a tech savvy generation, where the cost of every little trinket and video game adds up. And let's face it, people aren't exactly getting any more ambitious to do work. Those who are, are usually mature enough not to cruise around booming degenerate music at insane levels, which is where those high end head units used to be so common place.

Less time in car tends to equal less $ invested...


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

I have to agree that MP3 has something to do with it.

There is a lack of clean looking stuff out there as well. The style in cars now is the clean, understated look. Well, that's what I like anyway. Tough to pull off with most of the equipment out there now.

Crazy gas prices sounds like a reasonable cause as well.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

This is my big complaint about most of the products. I recently had to replace the stock radios in two of my vehicles. The result looks like a boom box display in each. Hideous. The products actually perform quite well. The displays and the user interface are absurd.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Very true. I'm all for features, but a little more thought should be put into the UI. For example, my Alpine deck with iPod controls is a ******* danger to the road going public. Search wont let you skip by letter, so you have to sit there spinning the wheel (I'm pretty good at it, too) for miles until you get to the file you want.


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## Bailman (Nov 21, 2006)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> I have a $700 set of a/d/s/ component speakers that has been sitting in my garage for 5 years or more. Our Buick system doesn’t sound as good as my buddy’s Acura, but it’s good enough that it’s going to be hard to get motivated to install them, along with the Soundstream Rubicon amp I’ve had sitting out there nearly as long...
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


Ah Wayne. I too have a set of 5.5 ADS speakers and Soundstream SS 5.5 sitting in my basement along with a Soundstream Pure Class A 3.0 and 604. It is true that I haven't installed at least the Amps b/c the 300C I have does have acceptable sound with a balanced frequency response with digital EQ'ing from the OE manufacturer...who slips my mind. 

Some one had put this OE stuff on a RTA and it was flat by IASCA standards and allegedly the EQ only kicked in when the volume got turned up. I have some pant flapping bass from my doors with the paper 6X9's but I do miss the old days of dynamat and 120 db's of pure class A sound and bass driving down the highway. :bigsmile:

I judge my HT by what my auto used to sound like. That must be why I had two SVS 2+/2 and two HSU 3.3's in my 3200cu ft area.:devil:


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> The big thing with todays vehicles particularly GM is that the OnStar system is integrated into the head unit and if it is removed and there is no power to it for more then a few seconds it will not work again unless its brought back to a GM dealer to be unlocked. This also makes it difficult to upgrade to an after market unit because things like OnStar and the hands free phone capabilities will not work without the factory unit.


I could have sworn the aftermarket manufacturers sued the car companies many years ago to prevent them from doing this kind of stuff, that made it difficult to impossible to change out the factory head unit with one of their products. And I thought the aftermarket manufacturers won. How are they getting around this now?



Bailman said:


> Ah Wayne. I too have a set of 5.5 ADS speakers and Soundstream SS 5.5 sitting in my basement along with a Soundstream Pure Class A 3.0 and 604. It is true that I haven't installed at least the Amps b/c the 300C I have does have acceptable sound with a balanced frequency response with digital EQ'ing from the OE manufacturer...who slips my mind.


Ah - sounds like that "diminishing return" factor has kicked in!



lcaillo said:


> This is my big complaint about most of the products. I recently had to replace the stock radios in two of my vehicles. The result looks like a boom box display in each. Hideous.


Any of these Nakamichi head units float your boat? Nice looking stuff, IMO, even if the 700 appears to be the only one with real knobs...































​

Regards,
Wayne


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> I could have sworn the aftermarket manufacturers sued the car companies many years ago to prevent them from doing this kind of stuff, that made it difficult to impossible to change out the factory head unit with one of their products. And I thought the aftermarket manufacturers won. How are they getting around this now?


maybe so but my 2005 Chev uplander is that way and it would cost me $270 just for an adapter to maintain the functionality of the OnStar/hands free and then I would still have to buy a new Stereo:spend:. I want to be able to use my mp3 player with my system so I have looked into this allot.


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## BrianAbington (Mar 19, 2008)

nakamachi has always made great sounding decks...but they are notorius for having loading mechanisim problems.

I have had a pretty extensive system in every vehicle I have owned except my current jeep. I have a stealth box for it and replaced the front woofers. It has the infinity gold system in it which sucks but I may just add some new tweeters and call it good. I'm just not into it any more. 

I honestly would rather have a home theater...when my wife and I buy a house. 
Also with Gas being so expensive I need the money for other things.


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

Hey Cherokee, 
Do you have a WJ Grand? I had the Infinity Gold system too. The dash tweets always blow. I put a pair of Infinity Kappa 3.5's in the dash. All you have to do is use a Dremel tool and watch the windshield and VIN plate. They will work with the factory amp, but sound much better if you upgrade that too. I went with the Alpine PDX amps because they are really small and fit up under the back seats. Anyway just switching out those nasty factory tweets for a good 3.5 makes a world of difference.


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## BrianAbington (Mar 19, 2008)

I stwitched out the factory woofers for a set of vifa 7" woofers...and that was a huge improvement. 
I may try to find some vifa tweets to match. 

I competed in SQ competetion a few years back and loved it...now...I really don't care.


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

The factory tweeters are 2.5" and they actually are expected to handle some mids due to the stock crossover. So if you do put in some Vifa domes just keep that in mind(I'm sure you already know all of this). Actually I was thinking about it and one of the TangBand 2 or 3" widerange drivers might work good, if they have any 4 or 2ohm ones.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> I agree with Josh, I think a big deterant is theft of non factory head units and amps. The big thing with todays vehicles particularly GM is that the OnStar system is integrated into the head unit and if it is removed and there is no power to it for more then a few seconds it will not work again unless its brought back to a GM dealer to be unlocked. This also makes it difficult to upgrade to an after market unit because things like OnStar and the hands free phone capabilities will not work without the factory unit.


enter companys like PAC, and peripheral who make factory intergration equipment for most major auto makers.

i can asure you that car audio is alive and well. i know alot of major citys in the states are starting to crack down on loud systems, so perhaps as mention above, kids are a little more reluctant to turn it up. for as long as people like music, or loud music rather, there will always be home audio and car audio. as long as stupid shows like pimp my ride and unique whips  whore them selfs out, there will be car audio. as long as all those crazy rappers make bass riddled songs, there will be car audio. man i have 15 year old kids with no licence coming in to check out gear. i have a bevy of old guys coming in for installs. the mobile electronics industry is booming right now. even though alot of the factory amplified system are avaible in cars and trucks, some people want to do better.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2008)

and i have yet to hear a factory amped system that sounds better then a clean mid level head unit, entry level amp(s) and quility front and low end. the 2.1 set up in my truck out performs every factory premium sound equiped car ive hurd. thats why the factory 10" sub, amp and speakers in my wifes 07 equinox are sitting in the basement


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## kryptonitewhite (Sep 1, 2008)

If car audio dies or not, I like to have a good system everywhere I go. Running errands in the family car... a nice little well rounded system. At home, a decent HT but with serious low end. Maybe, just maybe... the dedicated SUV...someday...

<hands in pocket, kicks a couple rocks... moseys on>


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

You know... thinking about the title of this thread... the actual headunit in my 09 Sonata (traded in the 08) is as sweeter functionally than any headunit I have ever owned. It has Sirius-XM Radio, CD, MP3, DVD, AM/FM, a widescreen high resolution display and navigation. The display for satellite radio is the best layout I have seen. That is why I am keeping it... there will be no aftermarket headunit in the Sonata. What will be aftermarket is the amp and speakers, which are not all that bad and would satisfy me if I were not in the car audio mood again, which never seems to end.

What will make using the current headunit so nice is the processing available these days. I will be using a Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.2 controlled by a handy Palm T|X Handheld...










*3SIXTY.2*
Advanced Interactive Signal Processor & OEM Interface (Patent Pending)
The 3Sixty.2 delivers unprecedented control and flexibility to aftermarket and OEM sound systems with up to 153 bands of equalization and signal manipulation. Offering a fully interactive touch screen wireless solution via Bluetooth enabled Palm OS or Windows Mobile devices (select devices supported and not included), give users the ability to tune a sound system in real time anywhere within the vehicle.


 6-channel high-level input
 6-channel RCA level inputs (FR/FL/RR/RL/Center/Sub)
 Independent 31-band EQ for Front Left and Front Right
 Independent 27-band EQ for Rear Left and Rear Right
 27-band EQ for Center
 10-band subwoofer equalizer
 6-channel HP/LP/BP/AP adjustable crossover
 Up to 5 feet of delay per channel in 2 inch increments (subwoofer excluded)
 Auxiliary RCA input with 31-band adjustable eq
 Auto equalization with auto sum capability
 Digital Signal Processor with OEM integration capabilities (patent pending)
 Remote programmable master volume/aux volume control
 Wireless Bluetooth™

*6-Ch. 1/3 Octave EQ* 

The 6-channel 1/3 octave equalizer allows complete signal manipulation of either OEM or aftermarket audio systems.
http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/rftech/glossary.asp?p_id=146
*Dual Function Remote* 

The dash-mounted remote knob can function as either a master or subwoofer level control. 

*Intuitive Navigation*
 
The 3SIXTY's intuitive navigation gives the user quick access to all channels, inputs and level controls. The graphical user interface also provides confirmation of what settings are currently being modified. 

*iPod™ Input*

Take your music with you by connecting your favorite iPod or MP3 player to your system using 3SIXTY's AUX inputs. You can also use the AUX inputs to channel your gaming console through your audio system. 

*OEM Equalization
*
See how sound in your factory system can automatically be improved using the 3SIXTY. With the OEM Response window, you can visually confirm before and after frequency plots. 

*OEM Integration*

Utilizing both hi-level (speaker) and low-level (RCA) inputs, the 3SIXTY can interface with *all* factory and after-market source units. 

*Palm OS™*

Setup and configuration can be accomplished with any compatible Palm OS™ device. 

*Real-Time Crossover*

The built in real time crossover allows instant adjustment crossover frequencies, crossover slopes and time delay for the ultimate tuning experience.

Here is a screen shot of the PC software...


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

Wow! Car audio has come a long ways since I last looked at it!


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## Aaron Gilbert (Nov 12, 2008)

Everyone's made good points here. My main gripe only echoes what has been said many times already - the ergonomics and style are just atrocious in almost all current aftermarket head units. None of them truly look at home in a car's dash (unless your car interior is similarly garish, I guess). Part of this is size, if you're going from a double or one and a half DIN opening to a single DIN. But even the double DIN aftermarket head units aren't as well laid out or functional as the OEM head units, regardless of size. And don't get me started on colors... I'll just say that whoever thought blue was a great color to use for displays and illuminated buttons, seriously needs to talk with an opthamologist. 

I'm actually thinking of 'downgrading' to my used 1998 Blaupunkt head unit, even though it needs about $200 worth of work to make it fully functional again. It actually looks more OEM in my car's dash than the OEM stereo does, and the ergonomics are excellent. I'd loose MP3 capability, but I honestly don't even use the stereo that much in the car these days, and Ipods are growing cheaper all the time. Back in the 90's, they actually knew how to make aftermarket stereos that were better looking and easier to use than most OEM units. 

Here's my current stereo - pretty good layout, and excellent display, but the buttons and their labels are WAY too small:










Here's my old one. No tiny lettering, big buttons, changeable background AND button color. I even have a matching tape deck - not that I ever used it, I just like lots of buttons and matching components.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I could not agree more Aaron... below is a pic of an aftermarket system we did in my 06 Sonata...










There is just no way to make it look really good or to get it to flow with the dash. Now that I look back at this... it is truly ugly. This is one of the reasons I never did anything in my last Sonata. I could not find anything I wanted in the dash that would fit like I wanted it to. 

Thankfully we have these new processors like the 3Sixty.2 that will help make factory headunits more acceptable. I have to say... I really like the navigation type headunit in my 09 Sonata. I suppose if I could get a screen display unit to replace the factory unit that would do all that this unit does and more, then I might consider swapping them out, provided the pricing was competitive with the 3Sixty.2, which ain't so cheap.


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## a1161979 (Aug 26, 2007)

My Gf'd dad has asked me to do his brand new golf and asked if it could have a better headunit and i was like... "NO" it is simply crazy due to the shape of the dash, the steering wheel control and the display in between the guages :unbelievable: I couldnt believe it, i hate using line level converters too. I cant undertand why manufacturers cant simply use DIN spaced head units like in older cars.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

I could have sworn there was a lawsuit about this a long time ago, maybe in the 70s or 80s. Car manufacturers started putting in "integrated" stereos that couldn't realistically be removed or upgraded. The aftermarket manufacturers sued, complaining that the car manufacturers were intentionally trying to put them out of business (or something along those lines), and won.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2009)

No one cares about quality in sound anymore. Add in the cost/complexity, and you have a dying industry in America. Mobile audio still does quite well in Japan and Europe.... though I've heard Japan's market took a huge recent down-turn.


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## Viggen (Dec 31, 2008)

The car audio industry is definantly nothing like it was years ago.... I feel this is why

http://www.break.com/index/two-idiots-collide-in-empty-parking-lot.html

I do still love the sound of my 15yr old Adcom car audio amps


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## a1161979 (Aug 26, 2007)

There will always be car audio...

Look at the sucess of companies such as SSA, Sundown, Mach 5 and Fi Audio in recent years

It appears grim becasue of the dominance of Sony and Pioneer dealing through wallmart (or where ever in the US... im an Aussie) but at the end of the day there will always be a market for car audio and for that reason it will exist... I guess its like everything else these days, 99% of the population are happy with Ibuds for headphones and consider Bose to be Extra high fidelity audio, this follows on to car stereo where people thik that their new car stereo is so good becasue it has tweeters :no: Look at what happened to Hifi...

I guess we are just in a phase where it is on the backburner


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

I have had an aftermarket, upgraded stereo in every car since my first at 16 years old. (I think 6 cars in total?)

My new Honda Element is the first car I've ever had that I didn't replace the stereo. Not because it's so great (it's acceptable, but not great), but because (a) it pretty much offers everything I _need_, if not everything I _want_, since it it has integrated XM, an Aux in jack for my iPod, steering wheels controls, and great am/fm reception (a common Achilles heel for aftermarket head units, I've noticed). Add in the fact that there is no standard DIN opening so it would cost a considerable amount to make an aftermarket unit, even double-DIN, look decent, but these #$%@ factory units use non-standard impedances and connectors, such that I would have to mount a new XM antenna on the roof (can't use the nearly invisible built-in one, I'm told), I'd have to install all new speakers and wiring, and worst of all, there really isn't a trunk or much space to spare for actually mounting an aftermarket amp. In sum, it would cost a small fortune and likely look considerably _worse_ than leaving the factory units in place does.

I really wish factory car audio systems would use standard connectors so upgraded components could easily be swapped into place, and controlled using the existing controls. But such is not the case, so I'll likely be stuck using the factory system until I buy a new car. Fortunately it's surprisingly good... nice and loud. Which it needs to be since the interior of an Element is fairly noisy... the subtleties of an excellent sound system would likely be lost anyway. Such is life...


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## Tekmazter (Mar 3, 2009)

I saw this running thread and felt I needed to register and respond.

Take it from someone who was a HUGE PPI fan & customer in the 90's and did everything he could to amp up his system. I had signal processors, horns, the PPI Art Series (most beautiful ever) amps running very nice Kicker subs, mids and highs. Point is I was very much into it. 

I'm sure each generation has its own thing. This was something which was near and dear to a lot of us back then (I'm 35 now). However, I do not think this is the biggest thing killing aftermarket radios today. The #1 culprit here is car manufacturers ...

I have an Infiniti M45 (2003) with a Bose system which includes a 10" sub in the rear deck. I have looked for ways to upgrade my system every which way to Sunday and here's the issue. I cannot replace the head unit. Why? Well it has a 7" screen which integrates all of my climate controls, voice activation ---EVERYTHING. The only thing I've found that I can realistically do is to leverage a 3rd party PAC adapter to create an AUX and then perhaps build a carputer. That in itself isn't something cheap and you definitely need some real knowhow in order to get it going. This would scare of most people looking to upgrade. Other than that my only other option is to buy another amp, snip some wire and hook up my own sub box in the rear. Anything else would require a rediculous amount of setup.

So there you have it. I'm someone still interested in dabbing into the aftermarket but am sorry to say I just don't see it happening with how more and more cars are being setup today.

Even the FORD FOCUS has gone this route. Seriously ... it's not looking good people!


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## Bailman (Nov 21, 2006)

Beat_Dominator said:


> No one cares about quality in sound anymore. Add in the cost/complexity, and you have a dying industry in America. Mobile audio still does quite well in Japan and Europe.... though I've heard Japan's market took a huge recent down-turn.



I don't know about no one caring about sound quality anymore. I just feel that the folks who didn't care about it now have more ways (products) of getting this poor sound quality and the profit margins are higher on these product than ACS. Then we have the people who do care about SQ...us. In my case my OEM has decent enough sound that I am not worrying about it.


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## jmmdm2 (Mar 3, 2009)

I wish I found this thread while it was still popular.

I was all about car audio 10 years ago, I was the annoying person driving down the road with the two 15's blasting nothing but bass tracks. Then again, I also listened to Billy Joel, U2, Metallica, pretty much everything at full volume. 

I can attribute the downfall of my car audio days to many factors. I bought a house, had kids, also had a ground loop issue that I could never solve which forced me to remove the entire system. I always took pride in the fact that my system and all that I installed had no ground issues, having one I couldn't solve in my own car was too much so I pulled everything out. The age of in-car video was at it's height and I of course had to have the motorized fold out touch screen from eclipse. I went so far as skipping the local retailers and dealing with a regional distributer buying products at dealer cost.

I built custom kick panels, door pods, sub boxes and stayed up for 24hrs on two occasions getting ready for some local shows.

Getting in my car and driving around with the stereo cranked was my out, my way to get away. I'd drive for hours just listening to my own private concert. 

Who buys two Rockford Fosgate Team RF 15's for $900 each? I did. They retailed for $1800 each, lucky I had the hook-up. These woofers were so heavy and they were not made for sound quality by any means, they were a pure competition sub. I got lost in the car audio world. I forgot why I got into it in the first place. I now know that I don't need to hit 160 dbs or worry about the 7" touch screen in the dash. My system never hit 160 dbs as that's insane but it did win a trophy for hitting 146 dbs at a local competition. 

After a recent hearing check, I found out that my left ear can hear better through direct contact rather than sounds through the air. All those years of bass refelcting off the drivers side window? 

Other factors leading to car audio slowing down? How about The Fast and The Furious? Sure there were systems highlighted in the movie but main theme was speed. How many car audio nuts sold off their sub box for the 5 inch tipped muffler they saw in the movie. Then the engine mods with cams and intakes and turbos. Forged pistons/rods/stainless steel exhausts, powder coating, chrome and it goes on and on. I did the speed thing too.

I'm 34 now and I don't know what it is but the years are flying by like crazy. I think I'm going to get back into the car audio scene but I find myself buying pressure treated lumber for the back deck or loam for the front lawn, a pressure washer, leaf blower, chain saw, shop tools and now my home theater project.

My older son wants a PS3, the younger guy wants a Wii. They both have to have flat screens so where does that leave my car audio life? I didn't realze I missed it that much or why I missed it. My girlfriend used to love listen to music in my car because "it sounded the way music was supposed to sound". I stayed up late building and painting, running wires, tweaking and she was there for that. We spent a lot of great times together because of car audio. Good thing I married her so we can hang out in the HT and still enjoy the same music from those years.

Maybe car audio isn't dead, I'm going to give it another shot... real soon, maybe.


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## Bailman (Nov 21, 2006)

:spend:Well I have some Old School Soundstream Reference Amplifiers I'll let go for a nice premium if that's the case.:spend: 

One is the 604 and the other is the Pure class A 3.0.:T People used to say that my subs had a shimmer to them that they wished they had. It wasn't the subs... it was the 3.0 working the upper bass after being dialed in.

Nah, I probably never will sell these things.


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## 93ext (Feb 15, 2009)

The first sub I ever owned was a Rockford Fosgate 8" series one, that little thing started it all for me.

I still have my stuff turned up a lot of the time, and Im probably gonna get flammed. But I love loud music, and my 2 15's love to dish it out.

It's kinda cool the effects of bass, I can see not just my mirrors shake or move, but they flap. I also bought the alpine 9887 deck for Sq for the T/A and good DACs, it's a great deck. Normally every stop light or congested area I turn it down, but we do not really have any freeways here where people are driving 65 mph ( or roughly just over 100 kmph ) so some people are going to hear it when I go past.

But car stereos are not the only bad thing on the road, or the only source of noise pollution.


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## Kai Winters (Apr 4, 2009)

I go back to the day I installed an FM converter in my first car...early '73. 
I have been very frustrated with the car industry for a long time regarding the difficulty with installing aftermarket gear.
Not only do they make it very costly/difficult to near impossible and unsightly but many of the current cars have the most ugly and confusing head units that must have been designed by complete idiots. Buttons are too small, ill placed and many still don't accept mp3, etc. formatted cd's. I have no idea what they are thinking. 

I have not kept the stock system in any car I've owned since my first car in 1973 and up to my current car...'04 Accord EX. Thank goodness for aftermarket manufacturers that create new replacement dash pieces to allow for a single din unit.

My current system...Alpine iDA-X001 hu, Memphis amp, JL/Memphis components and Memphis 12" sub make long drives a pleasure...short ones too...Their is no comparison to the poor quality gear Honda installed. The funny thing is the cost of the stock gear is crazy and would cost more to replace than the aftermarket gear I describe.
I refuse to buy a car that will not accommodate aftermarket gear...period.
I also make it a point to tell sales people that if the car will not accept aftermarket gear I am not interested. They may look at me a bit oddly but I have demo'd the audio difference between a stock system and my humble system asking them what car they would prefer to drive/ride in on a 6 hour drive?

Rant over...thanks for reading lol.


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## ampire (Nov 27, 2008)

I sold car electronics earlier this year before I went to grad school and the only things I sold were GPS's. No one was really into anything beyond maybe a head unit to replace a broken one. I may get back into car audio, but I sold all of my car audio gear to switch to home stereo except for a pair of 6.5's, a 200 watt fosgate amp and my head unit.

Installing and constantly messing with it ruined my car's interior gradually. Theres a limit to how many times you can snap the dash board out.

When I get a new car I would probably do a 15" sub and put it in the spare well with a really nice big amp, flush with the floor and run it off the rear channel high level's since factory head units are so integrated now. I had a 3 cuft sub box in the trunk of my civic and it made it really hard to do anything with that car.


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## 93ext (Feb 15, 2009)

Yeah the new head units being so tied into cars now is sad.:thumbsdown:


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## mosconiac (Jan 31, 2009)

The single, solitary reason my daily driver never received an aftermarket stereo was the head unit being molded into the dash...and that system is the worst ever!!!

I HAVE the Sounstream MC300s & Audio Control EQTs sitting in the basement ready to go and couldn't get psyched up about cutting the car apart...and I'm a audio nut that's willing to invest obscene amounts of time doing this goofy stuff. Imagine what that headunit roadblock looks like to a 16yo kid!


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## StereoClarity (Apr 22, 2008)

^Mosconiac, what vehicle do you have? There are quite a few options for most vehicles with a few rare exceptions. I know the Subaru Legacy GT has the climate controls attached to the headunit so it can't be replaced.

Even still, like Sonnie stated, things like the RF 360.2 are great because you can do a significant amount with the signal before it hits your aftermarket amp. Why not do something like that?


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

This is a good discussion. My opinion is that what's killing the aftermarket car audio business is not factory integration - there are as many ways to overcome those limitations as there are professional installers - but the emphasis on price, power and "bling" over sound quality and genuine performance. Price pressure from cheap (and often ) Chinese components with previously known or decent sounding name brands (such as Dual or Soundstream or Orion) and the outright lies about things like output power associated with those pieces (2000 watts from an amplifier with a single 25-amp fuse, yea right) are creating unrealistic expectations leading to the death of the private installer and their higher-end product lines. When Joey the 16-year-old thinks they can get a street pounder system (with iPod integration!) for $250 installed free from their local flea market, the market for quality products with quality installation is eroded.

Or perhaps this is just my pet peeve.


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## StereoClarity (Apr 22, 2008)

I think part of the problem with the "bling" factor that your talking about David is the fact that most people don't take the time to look at real world specs when they are thinking about automotive audio. Most people upgrade from the stock system for 2 reasons...

1) Functionality (iPods and such)
2) More....in every sense of the word.

People that have a 10 want a 12 and people who have a 12 want two of them. They don't have a clue about the acoustics and it would be foolish for us to think that they have time or want to learn about it. 


I'm not sure how well you guys keep up with automotive audio but the level that we have reached in the car is being pushed every day. I've seen things recently that just boggle the mind. Yes, brands like Audiobahn and MTX make stuff that blings and goes boom (either sense of the word) but there are other companies that are doing some VERY interesting stuff.


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

You are very correct Steven about there being some exciting things still happening in car audio. New amps like the IcePower units from Alpine and Pioneer, new processors like the Audison Bit One, improved mains loudspeakers and the continual evolution of subwoofer technology. New head units lag behind perhaps, but that's only because of the fascination with Nav systems in-dash DVD... although Nakamichi is poised to return to the North American market and while they are no longer the same audiophile company they once were, it should still be a product line worth checking out.

The vast majority of this business, however, is driven by young people wanting ground-pounding subwoofer systems and who believe more is better in all cases. I am happy to see companies like Audiobling now out of business, but when my young customers tell me they want dual 15's with blue LEDs that pulse to the music, chrome plated amplifiers and 24 farad add-on caps but they want to use the factory head unit and mains speakers, I fear the desire for good quality sound is still not in the mainstream.


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## StereoClarity (Apr 22, 2008)

dyohn said:


> The vast majority of this business, however, is driven by young people wanting ground-pounding subwoofer systems and who believe more is better in all cases. I am happy to see companies like Audiobling now out of business, but when my young customers tell me they want dual 15's with blue LEDs that pulse to the music, chrome plated amplifiers and 24 farad add-on caps but they want to use the factory head unit and mains speakers, I fear the desire for good quality sound is still not in the mainstream.


You couldn't be more right.


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## StereoClarity (Apr 22, 2008)

If you guys have heard anything about the JBL-MS8 that is also worth a look. It's been a fantom piece for years and hopefully one day it will become available for purchasing. The unit will do for car audio what Audyssey EQ did for the house. I hope it doesn't get shot down by marketing and they make the thing.


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

I hear the MS8 is still in development but due to software issues the delays keep piling up. Someone at Harmon told me they are about a year behind their original schedule but still hope to get it out in 2009...


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## StereoClarity (Apr 22, 2008)

dyohn said:


> I hear the MS8 is still in development but due to software issues the delays keep piling up. Someone at Harmon told me they are about a year behind their original schedule but still hope to get it out in 2009...


Really? If I just have to wait till the end of the year I'll wait. , if I knew the thing was coming out in April of next year I'd wait. The problem with those bone heads is that they wont release ANY projected date/month/year/millennium when it's coming out. What consumer in their right mind would wait for a product they don't know will ever exist?


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

Yes, I understand your frustration. But ask yourself what company in their right mind would release a product that does not work correctly or as advertised if they want to maintain their reputation? It's usually better and smarter to simply drop a product than to unleash something on the world that will cause you nothing but headaches.


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## StereoClarity (Apr 22, 2008)

dyohn said:


> Yes, I understand your frustration. But ask yourself what company in their right mind would release a product that does not work correctly or as advertised if they want to maintain their reputation? It's usually better and smarter to simply drop a product than to unleash something on the world that will cause you nothing but headaches.


100% agree...which was why they made a mistake jumping the gun in terms of it's announcement. 


PS: I also happen to know that Gary Biggs had one in his BMW that placed first in a few comps so it can't be THAT far away from production. They made that one that works so what's the holdup?


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

StereoClarity said:


> 100% agree...which was why they made a mistake jumping the gun in terms of it's announcement.
> 
> 
> PS: I also happen to know that Gary Biggs had one in his BMW that placed first in a few comps so it can't be THAT far away from production. They made that one that works so what's the holdup?


Good question. I'd guess it's either a supply chain cost issue or problems with software stability. Building a prototype or limited run where cost is not that big a concern is often easier than getting to production at a price point that is acceptable to the target market.


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