# Do these exist... budget prepro?



## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

It appears to me that in the budget range of under 300 or 400, there are only receiver offerings from Denon/Onkyo/Yamaha/Pioneer. These entry level receivers care alot about features and less about amps.

Why is there not a 200-300 pre pro? Every prepro I see is much much more expensive. I would think a company listed above could make offering one and then offering a power amp for 400-600? I think this combo would blow most 600-800 receivers out of the water?

Or is it just that the demographics don't allow? Those with 500 to spend would rather have an all in one solution rather than two boxes?


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Sphinx said:


> It appears to me that in the budget range of under 300 or 400, there are only receiver offerings from Denon/Onkyo/Yamaha/Pioneer. These entry level receivers care alot about features and less about amps.
> 
> Why is there not a 200-300 pre pro? Every prepro I see is much much more expensive. I would think a company listed above could make offering one and then offering a power amp for 400-600? I think this combo would blow most 600-800 receivers out of the water?
> 
> Or is it just that the demographics don't allow? Those with 500 to spend would rather have an all in one solution rather than two boxes?


Yup. That is the reason. Demand for such a "specialised" product is small in bottom of the mass market and does not justify the production/marketing.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The other issue is also the gap in quality has been dramatically reduced to a point that an AVR with pre-outs will sound just as good and offer much more in the way of processing options. You can get an Onkyo 709 that has Pre-Outs for around $600 that will sound just as good as a dedicated pre-pro costing thousands.


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## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

Tonyvdb,

That is exactly why I asked the question. The 709 is the first offering with full preouts. Then if you add say the XPA-5 for 900, $1500 total. Why is onkyo/denon/yamaha... letting Emotiva or other amp manufacturers take all of this market. If they developed a prepro for $3-400, they could sell amps for 50-100 less than competitors and make out like kings.

I would think many here would take an onkyo 609 w/o amps and pair it with a power amp if they could get it for hundred/s cheaper. The only concern I see if onkyo/others can compete with the reputation of other power amp manufacturers.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I agree, however this does not make business sense because it involves convincing the general public that a pre-pro is a better option. Your dealing with a sector of the public that knows very little about audio and getting someone to buy a separate processor and then amps would be time consuming and costly. 
When your talking about a guy/girl with limited funds walking into a big box store with $400 to spend there is no way you can convince them that buying a pre-pro (if one was available) is the "better" option. Sadly your in a minority.

You can get a referbished 709 for much less than $600 at accessories4less.


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## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

I agree. I didn't mean to assume that Onkyo/../../ would get rid of the budget receiver lines. More that they add a budget prepro to there offerings.

I am not sure of number of budget receivers sold per year compared to the midlevel receivers. I think the market for what I am suggesting is not the budget receiver buyer, but the midlevel receiver buyer. Those are the buyers who want the preouts. The amps in the 709 are not hugely different than the amps in the 509. Something like 125 W/c versus 90 W/c specced.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Sphinx said:


> Why is onkyo/denon/yamaha... letting Emotiva or other amp manufacturers take all of this market.


Because it is too small.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

For the same reasons pre-pros cost so much more than a receiver. Manufacturers cant recoup there costs for design, research and building them. Each and ever manufacturer already has several pre-pro's and as you can see the cost is much higher because they dont sell nearly as many.


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## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

Kal,

You are probably correct. I am a small market. In a few years, when I upgrade from my budget receiver. I would rather pay a few hundred for the processor and then spend my money on the amp I think that provides the best headroom or value or both. Unfortunately, today's market doesn't all this. I would have to buy a midlevel receiver to get the preouts, in which I pay some for amps.

Isn't the customer always right? /s


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## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> For the same reasons pre-pros cost so much more than a receiver. Manufacturers cant recoup there costs for design, research and building them. Each and ever manufacturer already has several pre-pro's and as you can see the cost is much higher because they dont sell nearly as many.


I don't quite understand this. In my dream world, Onkyo has done the research/licensing on processing. They put that tech in their receivers because the receivers sell well and they can recoup the cost. Why can't they just also put that tech(already researched and in use in receivers) in different box and sell for some discount for the value of the amps? I wouldn't expect it to be 100%, but something where I don't feel that I am unnecessarily paying for amps/heat sinks/shipping weight that I do not need.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

They would still have to make a new design, case, circuit boards and other parts. This all costs money. They would then have to sell thousands of units each year to recoup costs. That would not happen.
I understand your thoughts but the industry does not work that way. In my opinion receiver companies shod offer pre outs in every receiver they sell particularly the budget ones that the internal amps are very poor.

The Onkyo 609 is probably the best budget receiver out there (no pre-outs) as its bench tested output was better then 85watts per ch all channels driven. Most good efficient speakers will easily be able to reach reference levels without distortion with that.


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## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

Tony,

I think you boiled my hopes down to one concise fix:

All budget receivers should have preouts.

Maybe I was too liberal with my use of prepro. I am less worried about what type of video upconversion the thing has. I am more annoyed that I have to shell out hundreds of dollars more in order to get preouts.

I understand some buisness reasons. I was more lamenting that I can't get what I want.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Well when you have a price like $479 on this Onkyo 709 its really hard to complain.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Sphinx said:


> I don't quite understand this. In my dream world, Onkyo has done the research/licensing on processing. They put that tech in their receivers because the receivers sell well and they can recoup the cost. Why can't they just also put that tech(already researched and in use in receivers) in different box and sell for some discount for the value of the amps? I wouldn't expect it to be 100%, but something where I don't feel that I am unnecessarily paying for amps/heat sinks/shipping weight that I do not need.


Just putting it in a different box is not so simple and the cost of developing, supporting and marketing another SKU is spread over too few units. This topic has come up in this and other forums over and over. If the manufacturers thought they could make money on this, they would make it.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> The other issue is also the gap in quality has been dramatically reduced to a point that an AVR with pre-outs will sound just as good and offer much more in the way of processing options. You can get an Onkyo 709 that has Pre-Outs for around $600 that will sound just as good as a dedicated pre-pro costing thousands.


I agree 100%:T


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Sphinx said:


> It appears to me that in the budget range of under 300 or 400, there are only receiver offerings from Denon/Onkyo/Yamaha/Pioneer. These entry level receivers care alot about features and less about amps.
> 
> Why is there not a 200-300 pre pro? Every prepro I see is much much more expensive. I would think a company listed above could make offering one and then offering a power amp for 400-600? I think this combo would blow most 600-800 receivers out of the water?
> 
> Or is it just that the demographics don't allow? Those with 500 to spend would rather have an all in one solution rather than two boxes?


Two boxes cost more to produce than one. An all in one solution appeals more towards the masses who in that price range are looking more for value than for performance. Emotiva is the closest you will come to finding your dream. Or ebay. 

Bottom line is, it all comes down to supply and demand so your choices are limited.


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