# need more output



## informel (Jun 21, 2011)

My friend as the following equipment
Onkyo TR-NX809
front speaker Klipsch RF-82
center speaker Klipsch RC-52
surround Klipsch RB-61

room size 12 X 19 X 7.5

His wife has hearing problem, so even at full volume she has difficulties understanding dialog.

I tried boosting every speaker by 5 DB, but then the maximum volume is 5 DB lower (from +14.5 to +9.5)

I know that before I ran Audyssey, the volume was REALLY loud, so the amp can output more and the Klipsch are very efficient, is it some kind of protection to prevent hearing loss?

I can always reset the receiver to default and not run Audessy or is there another way


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

There is no protection built into any of his equipment that would limit output, so it's really only what the components can/can't do that governs absolute volume levels.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm betting the dialog is muddy due to room acoustics. Increasing the power to bad acoustics tends to make the problem worse. Those Klipsch's are so efficient, I can't imagine power is an issue. Are they applying any treatments?


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## informel (Jun 21, 2011)

no treatment and the 2 front speakers are king of close to the wall (and corner), but dialog should manily come from center channel right?

maybe I can try without the center channel,because i do not thing the RC-52 is as goog as the RF-82


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## cavchameleon (Jan 7, 2008)

Where is the center located? If in a shelf (TV stand, etc.) it can cause problems. The front baffle should be slightly in front of everting else. Also, if there is a coffee table (or other furniture) between the center and the listening position, it will greatly diffuse and smear the sound. 

I also agree that it has to be an acoustical issue as thouse speakers should easily reach uncomfortable levels.


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## cavchameleon (Jan 7, 2008)

Another thing, has your friend's wife been tested for hearing problems and is she wearing a hearing aid? If so, keep in mind that the hearing aid is also an 'amplified speaker' and making the system too loud can cause her more hearing damage. Something to think about. Try working on the acoustical issues first. My 2cents...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Agree with everything said above, Placement of the center channel is crucial and also the mains should be taken out of the corners at least 2 ft 3 is better. The 809 os no wimpy receiver and should be at ear bleeding levels when the volume is at 0db. 

Did you correctly run the auto room EQ software and have the mic placed on a tripod at ear level?


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## informel (Jun 21, 2011)

cavchameleon said:


> Where is the center located? If in a shelf (TV stand, etc.) it can cause problems. The front baffle should be slightly in front of everting else. Also, if there is a coffee table (or other furniture) between the center and the listening position, it will greatly diffuse and smear the sound.
> 
> I also agree that it has to be an acoustical issue as thouse speakers should easily reach uncomfortable levels.


Yes, the center is inside one of those HT furniture, and now that people are mentionnning it, accoustical issue is probably the problem, I will see if I can put the speakers away from the corners and move the center channel foward so it stick out a bit out of the furniture


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## informel (Jun 21, 2011)

cavchameleon said:


> Another thing, has your friend's wife been tested for hearing problems and is she wearing a hearing aid? If so, keep in mind that the hearing aid is also an 'amplified speaker' and making the system too loud can cause her more hearing damage. Something to think about. Try working on the acoustical issues first. My 2cents...


Yes she has hearing problem, no need to be tested, she as to look at you to understand or you have to talk VERY VERY LOOOOUD, she does not want to wear hearing aid.

He had to switch main speakers with the satellite upstairs for her to listen to TV, so you have those towers on each side of your head screaming in your ears, I already told my frind that I will never listen to a movie in his living room


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## informel (Jun 21, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Did you correctly run the auto room EQ software and have the mic placed on a tripod at ear level?


Funny that you mention that, I was just reading the tutorial on Audeyssy setup and no I did it completely wrong (I will also rerun it at home)


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

informel said:


> Funny that you mention that, I was just reading the tutorial on Audeyssy setup and no I did it completely wrong (I will also rerun it at home)


That will probably make a huge difference as well. Its one of the biggest mistakes people make is not doing it right and the sound will suffer. Make sure you read all 8 positions even if you have to place the mic in the same position more than once, just move it to the left and right a foot.


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## cavchameleon (Jan 7, 2008)

^^^ Agreed, re-run Audyssey with all 8 mic positions. But, first put the speakers in their correct positions - expecially the center. As mentioned, also pull the L/R away from the walls. Thier front baffles should also be in front of the plane of the Media Center Rack. It would be great to have a picture of the room and equipment if you are able to give that.

You didn't mention if they had a coffee table in between the front/center speaker and the listening area (couch, chair). That would also be one thing to eliminate.

One other thing. You mentioned your friend will not wear a hearing aid. That's fine. Just keep another thing in mind. After running Audyssey, always choose the Audyssey curve and not the 'Flat' curve. The Audyssey curve tapers off above 10K Hz. If you use the flat curve at extremely high levels, it won't only be ear-piercing but can blow your tweeters. Just a thought...


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## fmw (Aug 11, 2013)

When you finish the calibration, check to see if there is still a problem with dialogue. If so, then it is just a matter of raising the level of the center channel manually, leaving the other channels alone.


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## ranbunctious (Sep 15, 2011)

When in Dolby surround mode, I can hardly hear my center speaker. Really just have 3 options: Either listen in 'all stereo' mode, or get a very large center speaker. A tall band PA speaker with 4-10" drivers, or 4-12" would do. Last option is a separate center channel amp. The main problem is Dolby and sound engineers don't boost center channel enough. If you're watching a program with heavy music and effects, dialogue will suffer.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

I have to think that a lot of what is being recommended here, while correct in the general sense, is wrong in your situation. If your wife has problems hearing the dialog, that’s all in the center channel. Moving the left and right speakers around isn’t going to help that at all. And if your room acoustics were all that bad, _you’d_ be complaining about a dialogue-intelligibility problem, not just your wife. Also, Audyssey is designed to smooth out frequency response, not to give an assist people who might have deficiencies in their hearing at certain frequencies, so it might be making the problem worse, at least where the center channel is concerned.

Your center speaker is very likely generating an unnatural boost in the 150-300 Hz range, due to resonances caused by the cabinet you have it in. Excessive energy in this frequency range can do a lot to muddy up voices, especially male voices. I had the same problem in my system and had to apply a fairly broad and deep cut at 205 Hz to restore frequency balance. 

If you can correct that, either with Audyssey or manual equalization, and it doesn’t help, I’d next try a boost of a few dB in the 2-4 kHz range. This would serve to emphasize the dialogue and make it “stand out” a bit more. As fmw suggested, simply turning up the center speaker a bit will help as well.

Keep in mind that a solution that gets your wife what she needs may well end up with sound that you’re unhappy with.

Regards, 
Wayne


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## ranbunctious (Sep 15, 2011)

I recently went deaf in one ear. My human speech recognition is cut nearly half what it was. When I watch TV, I'm forced to put the receiver in all channel stereo to hear speech. The biggest thing that helped me was wearing wireless headphones. Your wife might want to give them a try. Found mine for around $25.


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## informel (Jun 21, 2011)

thanks all for your suggestions, I did not have much time to visit my friend lately, but will try to see him next week.

I have an SPL meter from Radio Shack (uncalibrated) and that might be enought to check for frequency response, I will probably buy a calibrated microphone in the near furtur to make more precise mesearement.

note: this is not my wife but my friend's wife.


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

Hi: this is an important discussion. In my opinion, ANY horizontally oriented center channel speaker is going to involve significant compromises, primarily in frequency response and issues such as comb filtering. I had an expensive center channel speaker and after experimenting with a "phantom" center, could not tell the difference, so I sold the center. Still, I think there's a superior solution, it involves extra expense, but in my opinion, it's worth it: running dual vertical centers with your best 2 speakers. This does several things: allows the center to go lower(in frequency response), allows a much wider sweet spot, greatly improves dialogue intelligibility and devotes more of your resources toward the most critical channel. You do need an extra amp for this, and you will need to split your center channel's output, but I think it's worth experimenting with. Anyone else interested I trying this approach?


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

There are AVR settings which will reduce the maximum possible volume (according to my Onkyo TX-SR706 manual):

--Check to see if Maximum Volume has been set. There is an option in VOLUME SETUP that can limit the maximum volume, make sure this is "Off".

--"After the Automatic Speaker Setup function has been run,....the maximum volume may be reduced."

--"When the 'Equalizer Settings' is set to 'Audessey', the maximum possible volume is reduced by 6dB."


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## fmw (Aug 11, 2013)

Just go into the room calibration software and boost the center channel by 5 or 6 db. It is as simple as that.


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## informel (Jun 21, 2011)

I beleive this is what I finally did, I did that a wgile ago, I have just ordered a microphone (UMIK1) and will get aquinted with REW. My frend is in the hospital right now to have some stone remove (haiiiii, I have been through that before), and I should have my microphone at that time and will take some mesurement


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