# Software Help



## udtman (Feb 12, 2010)

Hope this is the correct forum for the post ...


Question: Which box designing software do you recommend? I have tried 4 different ones and have received 4 different answers, all having been given identical data/parameters.
I am inclined to go with WinISD as it seems to be more thorough, however, when asked to calculate non entered data automatically, it will not accept the allready entered data for a PARTICULAR driver which is the McIntosh 036-047 from the XR-5 speaker system. [MANY reasons for this, btw.]
If you input the basic data posted on Roger Russells page for that particular woofer and DONT have it fill in the blanks, then you can work with it which is fine with me.

The actual measured cubic feet internal volume for this box is 1.66 cubic feet., The closest any software I have tried comes to that is 1.8 cubic feet

I have gotten between .668 cf for a closed box to 3.5 cf for a vented box.

Advice and insight needed badly on this.

Thank You

Mike


----------



## Brewski (Jan 8, 2010)

Mike,

I initally was using winISD beta and was fairly happy with that. More recently I've been playing with Unibox and like the additional information unibox provides while moddeling speakers.

Take it easy
Jay


----------



## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

> when asked to calculate non entered data automatically, it will not accept the allready entered data for a PARTICULAR driver...


 The auto calculate feature needs the parameters to be entered in a specific order. The proper order can be found in the help files.


----------



## udtman (Feb 12, 2010)

Ill read the help file again and see what happens, but somehow cant forsee it "matching" the others, will report here... and thanks for the repy.
:rubeyes:


----------



## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

There are bound to be small differences between modeling programs, if you built one at 1.66 cu.ft. and another at 1.8 cu.ft. you probably wouldn't heat the difference. In other words, close enough.


----------



## udtman (Feb 12, 2010)

*Re: Software Help / BEGGING*

Ok, read the help file again. I was using the new Alpha version. When asked to calculate non entered data automatically, it still would not accept some of the parameters I put in the various fields. Again, I switched auto calculate off and entered parameters manually and it accepted them. I still received some what I considered far fetched box calculations, it seemed to hover around .5 to .8 cubic feet for a 12 inch woofer, Im not a rocket surgeon, but theres no way that can be right.

So... I switched to the beta version and received pretty much the same box volume "answer", either .5 cf, or up to 3.5 cf.

Keeping in mind that assumption is the mother of all screw ups, I am ASSUMING in ver Alpha that I made all the conversion calculations correctly, using web based calculators from english to metric and vice versa. Did not have to do that with Beta version, but still way off the mark in my opinion.

What I would like to ask if if someone here could use the following parameters, tell me what YOU get for a recommended box volume for a closed and a sealed box


Mechanical
Fs = 22 Hz
Qms = 2.0
Vas = 11 cu ft
Cms - 0.14 in/lb
Mms = 2.6 oz
Rms = 10.4 lb/sec
Sd = 82.5 squ in
Dia = 10.3 in
Xmax = .375 in (peak to peak)

Electrical
Qes = .16
Re = 7.1 ohms
Le = 6 mh
Z nom = 8 ohms
BL = 20 N/A
Pe = 150 watts

Combination
Qts = .15
Efficiency = 1.6 %
Sensitivity = 94 db

Thanks, yet again ...

Mike


----------



## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

According to the parameters supplied the default net volumes that WinISD comes up with are 3.6 cu.ft. ported and .6 cu. ft. sealed. Those are the default values which can be adjusted manually to optimize the performance of the driver. 

Mms and Cms give the Fs, since the Cms is listed in a in/lb and WinISD can't convert it, I entered Mms and Fs to get the Cms which is 0.71 mm/N. From there the proper order of Re, Sd, BL. Qms, Pe and Xmax was followed. 

What do you want to achieve with this driver? It's limited Xmax of 4.8 mm would restrict it to a small ported box with a high tuning frequency. Your original post states a box of 1.66 cubic feet, is that a box you have built for this driver?


----------



## udtman (Feb 12, 2010)

This is a 12" woofer from a McIntosh XR-5 system, the original cabinets are destroyed by water damage on the bottom. We are building new cabinets but my friend wants to do a completely different shape/style. 
The 1.66 ft i quoted was from me manually measuring the inside of the cabinet, and thats the total cu ft of the measurements. I ASSUMED all i would have to do is make a box of the same volume, irregardless of the shape. The problem in my mind is that none of the modeling softwares comes close to that figure, and thats what im worried about.

The original cabinets are HEAVILy stuffed with that tan wool stuff to the point there is absolutely no room left other than the drivers. According to the designer of the cabinet, thats for a flat response down to 20hz, in conjunction with the McIntosh eq, therefore my assumption just to build another cabinet of the same volume.

After reading through the forums, I decided to ask advice/opinions because something doesnt SEEM right to me ...


Here is a link to the info page on the driver: http://www.roger-russell.com/driversw.htm
it is the 12" Woofer 036-047, about halfway down the page


Thanks..
Mike


----------



## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

Yes, I verified the parameters from that page. Is the original cabinet ported or sealed? If ported what is the diameter and length of the port?


----------



## udtman (Feb 12, 2010)

Sorry, it is sealed. There is a 8" mid woofer, a mid tweeter and 2 tweeters in parallel that do not intrude into the cabinet, it is essentially only for the woofer its self.


And thank you very much for helping


----------



## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

And you're sure the internal volume of the woofer section is 1.6 cu.ft.?

http://mcc.berners.ch/speakers/XR5.pdf


----------



## udtman (Feb 12, 2010)

Hi..

Im certain of the volume. The "black" area beneath the grill area is fake, is only the stand part of it, and the top part of it above the grill is just a glued on slab. so the area of the box is covered if you will, by the grill area. Its just a really big piece of furniture in my humble opinion...

I should also mention one of the reasons for the redesign is we're going to "align" the midranges/tweeters in a column.

So were making a chamber for the woofer, then more or less a column for the rest of the speakers.
This was my idea i talked the guy into.

Ive built maybe 20 - 30 speakers over the years but they were either standard box, or musical pa type things with a few exotic Martin Logan types thrown in and have never seen such a disparity in the numbers. 

If these did'nt sound so good, i would'nt fool around so much with them, not to mention hassling you guys for advice. You all are infinitely more experienced than I am and I value my friends trust and friendship so thats why i'm pursuing this.


In case the pictures dont show up, heres a link to work done on it so far to get them back up and running electrically with cabinet pictures:
http://s432.photobucket.com/albums/qq45/udtman/Jerrys XR-5 Project/

Thanks yet again...
Mike


----------



## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

If the parameters are correct, (and that's a big if), 50 watts would take it to Xmax in 1.6 cu.ft. sealed.


----------



## udtman (Feb 12, 2010)

Im fast losing faith in McIntosh. I have software now that I can measure actual T/S parameters supposedly. Im going to use that and suspect i will wind up just making a box that matches the original volume since that seems like the sensible thing to do in this case.

Thank you Mike P and the others....

Mike W.

Really nice forum here, outstanding crew.


----------

