# onkyo 906 questions



## jwhiteman (Mar 14, 2013)

What is best mode for always using 7.1 and not hearing the same out of each rear? Also I tend to listen at -24 db but to really hear the surrounds I have to raise volume to -12 how can I make it so I hear surrounds at -24? Also watch allot of movies at night while my wife sleeps so that's why I run at -24


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I use THX ultra 2 for most of the movies I watch. I like the fact it makes the movies sound more like they do in the theater.


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## jwhiteman (Mar 14, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> I use THX ultra 2 for most of the movies I watch. I like the fact it makes the movies sound more like they do in the theater.


I don't remember seeing that on 906?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I'm certain yours has it.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I've seen people use dynamic EQ, and dynamic volume together. Dynamic eq, (in short) raises the sub, and surround levels to approximate the actual levels at reference. (Makes em too hot for me). Dynamic volume is like dynamic range compression, and tames the transients, and normalizes the output. You could trim the rears up, and use the dynamic volume. That might equalize front/rear output, but surrounds are inherently less busy, so I'm not sure how much your looking for. Have you level matched everything?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I run 7.2, and don't like thx modes(no offense tony lol). I use standard Dolby digital hd-ma sent PCM from BD player. For 5.1, I just use DD/EX


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## jwhiteman (Mar 14, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> I run 7.2, and don't like thx modes(no offense tony lol). I use standard Dolby digital hd-ma sent PCM from BD player. For 5.1, I just use DD/EX


Is there 1 I can use that no matter whether 5.1 or 7.1/2 it makes it 7.1/2?


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## jwhiteman (Mar 14, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> I've seen people use dynamic EQ, and dynamic volume together. Dynamic eq, (in short) raises the sub, and surround levels to approximate the actual levels at reference. (Makes em too hot for me). Dynamic volume is like dynamic range compression, and tames the transients, and normalizes the output. You could trim the rears up, and use the dynamic volume. That might equalize front/rear output, but surrounds are inherently less busy, so I'm not sure how much your looking for. Have you level matched everything?


How do I do that?


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## jwhiteman (Mar 14, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> I've seen people use dynamic EQ, and dynamic volume together. Dynamic eq, (in short) raises the sub, and surround levels to approximate the actual levels at reference. (Makes em too hot for me). Dynamic volume is like dynamic range compression, and tames the transients, and normalizes the output. You could trim the rears up, and use the dynamic volume. That might equalize front/rear output, but surrounds are inherently less busy, so I'm not sure how much your looking for. Have you level matched everything?


I just want to have as much surrounds at -24 as I do at -12


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Well, if all you want to do is trim up the surrounds, push the "setup" button. Then scroll down to speaker adjust, hit enter, then scroll down to level adjust, hit enter. At this point you should hear test tones. Scroll through till you get to the surround channels, and manually bump the level up to where you want. (Sorry, I'm using memory. Away from gear lol). If you trim while in the "audio" menu, (press home button to bring up), it won't keep your setting. 
Have you run audyssey?


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## jwhiteman (Mar 14, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> Well, if all you want to do is trim up the surrounds, push the "setup" button. Then scroll down to speaker adjust, hit enter, then scroll down to level adjust, hit enter. At this point you should hear test tones. Scroll through till you get to the surround channels, and manually bump the level up to where you want. (Sorry, I'm using memory. Away from gear lol). If you trim while in the "audio" menu, (press home button to bring up), it won't keep your setting.
> Have you run audyssey?


Just run audyssey again.. so trim up just means raising dbs?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yes. What did audyssey set them at?


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## jwhiteman (Mar 14, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> Yes. What did audyssey set them at?


Left 0
Center -0.5
Right +1.5
Surround right +5
Surround back right +3
Surround back left +5.5
Surround left 4.0


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I'm guessing the surrounds are a different manufacturer, or different line by the same one?
I guess I'd trim up by about 3db and try it out. Then go up in smaller increments, and test along the way til you get the output you want.


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## jwhiteman (Mar 14, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> I'm guessing the surrounds are a different manufacturer, or different line by the same one?
> I guess I'd trim up by about 3db and try it out. Then go up in smaller increments, and test along the way til you get the output you want.


Asperion all the way around
5t fronts
5c center
4bps sides
4b rears


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

jwhiteman said:


> Is there 1 I can use that no matter whether 5.1 or 7.1/2 it makes it 7.1/2?


Dolby digital "EX" for DD sources. PLIIX for stereo sources(some cable and satellite). These can be set in the "listening mode" menu. Fwiw, I'm referencing the steps from my 808. Your remote is different but the steps should be the same. 
As far as dynamic volume/EQ, mine is accessed by pressing a button with a pic of a house(home), then I scroll down to toggle. I go through phases where I like Dynamic EQ, and don't. It definitely gives a different presence! 
Nice speakers btw.


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## jwhiteman (Mar 14, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> Dolby digital "EX" for DD sources. PLIIX for stereo sources(some cable and satellite). These can be set in the "listening mode" menu. Fwiw, I'm referencing the steps from my 808. Your remote is different but the steps should be the same.
> As far as dynamic volume/EQ, mine is accessed by pressing a button with a pic of a house(home), then I scroll down to toggle. I go through phases where I like Dynamic EQ, and don't. It definitely gives a different presence!
> Nice speakers btw.


So Dolby ex is better than PLIIX for 7.1? I had everything at PLIIX movie 
Thanks just trying to make the most of the speakers


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

How large is your room? If its around 3000cu ft I would suggest trying the THX ultra mode. It works best for larger rooms.


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## jwhiteman (Mar 14, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> How large is your room? If its around 3000cu ft I would suggest trying the THX ultra mode. It works best for larger rooms.


Room is 15 X 17


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

jwhiteman said:


> So Dolby ex is better than PLIIX for 7.1? I had everything at PLIIX movie Thanks just trying to make the most of the speakers


Well, if you are watching a movie with a real DD soundtrack, and you are listening in DD 7.1(EX for 5.1) All the soundtrack info will go to the appropriate channels. Dolby Pro logic is designed to replicate having real discrete((5or 7.1) channels by matrixing sounds from the front channels. You might try the thx modes as tony suggested. So yes, DD EX is better.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ok, thats approximately 2200 Cu Ft, well it cant hurt to try various modes and see what you like. As Willis as pointed out a few as well its all about trial and error


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## jwhiteman (Mar 14, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> Ok, thats approximately 2200 Cu Ft, well it cant hurt to try various modes and see what you like. As Willis as pointed out a few as well its all about trial and error


Agreed just want to make sure that I'm using a mode that plays different sounds out of each rear.. what ones would do that? Thx surround ex? Thx ultra?


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## primetimeguy (Jun 3, 2006)

willis7469 said:


> Well, if you are watching a movie with a real DD soundtrack, and you are listening in DD 7.1(EX for 5.1) All the soundtrack info will go to the appropriate channels. Dolby Pro logic is designed to replicate having real discrete((5or 7.1) channels by matrixing sounds from the front channels. You might try the thx modes as tony suggested. So yes, DD EX is better.


Better us up to you but EX will generate one mono surround sent to both back surrounds while PLIIx will create stereo back channels. I, like most others, like and prefer PLIIX.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

primetimeguy said:


> Better us up to you but EX will generate one mono surround sent to both back surrounds while PLIIx will create stereo back channels. I, like most others, like and prefer PLIIX.


This is fair to say, but I don't mind the rr mono channel because of the other channels separation. I guess you could say it might be like 6.1 then?


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## primetimeguy (Jun 3, 2006)

willis7469 said:


> This is fair to say, but I don't mind the rr mono channel because of the other channels separation. I guess you could say it might be like 6.1 then?


Yep, EX is 6.1


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

primetimeguy said:


> Yep, EX is 6.1


And this is ok by me. If my understanding is right, PLIIX pulls surround info from the fronts. Right rear shares with right front, and left rear with left front. So the limitation would be like this. In Avatar, there is a scene where a little flying animal thing goes off screen behind the viewer. The sound starts front left, and finishes right rear. I don't think pLII will correctly place the effect. Se or no?


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> I've seen people use dynamic EQ, and dynamic volume together. Dynamic eq, (in short) raises the sub, and surround levels to approximate the actual levels at reference. (Makes em too hot for me). Dynamic volume is like dynamic range compression, and tames the transients, and normalizes the output. You could trim the rears up, and use the dynamic volume. That might equalize front/rear output, but surrounds are inherently less busy, so I'm not sure how much your looking for. Have you level matched everything?


The 906 pre-dates Dynamic Volume, but it has Dynamic EQ.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> And this is ok by me. If my understanding is right, PLIIX pulls surround info from the fronts. Right rear shares with right front, and left rear with left front. So the limitation would be like this. In Avatar, there is a scene where a little flying animal thing goes off screen behind the viewer. The sound starts front left, and finishes right rear. I don't think pLII will correctly place the effect. Se or no?


There are two things going on here. PLII, which decodes two channel tracks to surround, and PLIIX which further processes surround channels (even in 5.1) to 6.1 or 7.1. Remember, there are very few actual 7.1 tracks in the world, mostly it has to be faked from 5.1 PLII will only work on two-channel soundtracks. If the AVR picks up a 5.1 channel bitstream, it will turn off PLII and decode it. PLIIX will remain active in a 7.1 system and create the back channels. 

As for placement error, for early surround soundtracks pre-Dolby Digital 5.1, all they had two channels. For surround, they used 4 channels, L C R and S (surround was mono, any subwoofer feed was derived). All 4 channels, had to be matrixed in to a pair of tracks on film, LtRt. They were decoded into 4 again during playback. Improving channel separation between adjacent channels (L and C, or R and S for example) required the use of active steering logic (the roots of ProLogic) that made sure a sound that was supposed to be from the Left speaker would be reduced somewhat in the adjacent S and C channels on an active basis, and that steering logic wasn't perfect, it made errors. The soundtracks were mixed while monitoring through a Dolby Stereo decoder that did exactly what the theater decoder would do. Those tracks were mixed to compensate for the decoder steering errors. ProLogic was an improvement over the theatrical Dolby Stereo surround decoder, PLII improved on that, and PLIIX improved on PLII by dealing with the additional surround channels. PLII works just fine for older two channel surround tracks because they were mixed knowing the steering errors would be there during playback. 

The back surrounds created by PLIIX are completely synthetic, so the fact that they are there at all is, essentially, a placement error, because the channels didn't exist during the final mix. However, they are useful in home theater where there are very few surround speakers and it's hard to create a diffused surround field.



willis7469 said:


> I run 7.2, and don't like thx modes(no offense tony lol). I use standard Dolby digital hd-ma sent PCM from BD player. For 5.1, I just use DD/EX





jwhiteman said:


> I don't remember seeing that on 906?





tonyvdb said:


> I use THX ultra 2 for most of the movies I watch. I like the fact it makes the movies sound more like they do in the theater.


There's no such thing as THX Ultra2 processing. Ultra2 is a certification level for equipment. THX modes do three things: 

1. Apply "Re-Equalization" to the soundtrack. Re-EQ was necessary because films mixed in large dubbing stages, when straight-transferred to home media, sounded a tad bright on home systems. Re-EQ fixes that (but not always...stay tuned)

2. THX has it's own two-channel to surround decode matrix that is slightly different from the standard, and has it's own preferred speaker placement. If you use the THX back speaker placement plan THX processing has several ways to re-process those channels for different surround effects. This function works on 2 channel and 5.1 channel tracks. The rare 7.1 track will bypass most of it. The THX back surround decoding really only works right when you follow the THX speaker layout.

3. When decoding two channel tracks into surround THX processing "de-correlates" the otherwise mono surround track, providing slightly different signals to Sl and Sr. The problem is a mono surround track will tend to cluster to the surround speaker you sit closest to. De-correlation prevents that from happening, but is no longer necessary because most surround tracks have at least two surround channels, already fully de-correlated.

The need and desirability for THX processing has fallen off a lot in the last 10 years, mostly due to 5.1 soundtracks. But even Re-EQ has taken a hit because a straight transfer of the theatrical soundtrack to home media can no longer be assumed. Many tracks are remastered for home video, and during that step the Re-EQ function may be applied. So where theatrical tracks almost always sounded too bright and needed Re-EQ in the old days, today it's unpredictable, and often the re-EQ is already done. Doing it again would end up with a dull sounding soundtrack.

All the above would explain why some think less of THX modes. They can be great, if used correctly, but that's assumes tracks that need it, and the right speaker plan.


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## jwhiteman (Mar 14, 2013)

gazoink said:


> There are two things going on here. PLII, which decodes two channel tracks to surround, and PLIIX which further processes surround channels (even in 5.1) to 6.1 or 7.1. Remember, there are very few actual 7.1 tracks in the world, mostly it has to be faked from 5.1 PLII will only work on two-channel soundtracks. If the AVR picks up a 5.1 channel bitstream, it will turn off PLII and decode it. PLIIX will remain active in a 7.1 system and create the back channels.
> 
> As for placement error, for early surround soundtracks pre-Dolby Digital 5.1, all they had two channels. For surround, they used 4 channels, L C R and S (surround was mono, any subwoofer feed was derived). All 4 channels, had to be matrixed in to a pair of tracks on film, LtRt. They were decoded into 4 again during playback. Improving channel separation between adjacent channels (L and C, or R and S for example) required the use of active steering logic (the roots of ProLogic) that made sure a sound that was supposed to be from the Left speaker would be reduced somewhat in the adjacent S and C channels on an active basis, and that steering logic wasn't perfect, it made errors. The soundtracks were mixed while monitoring through a Dolby Stereo decoder that did exactly what the theater decoder would do. Those tracks were mixed to compensate for the decoder steering errors. ProLogic was an improvement over the theatrical Dolby Stereo surround decoder, PLII improved on that, and PLIIX improved on PLII by dealing with the additional surround channels. PLII works just fine for older two channel surround tracks because they were mixed knowing the steering errors would be there during playback.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the in depth info you provided.. i like learning


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

gazoink said:


> There's no such thing as THX Ultra2 processing. Ultra2 is a certification level for equipment.


Sorry but there is a THX ultra surround mode and my 805 has it, I use it all the time.


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## jwhiteman (Mar 14, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> Sorry but there is a THX ultra surround mode and my 805 has it, I use it all the time.


I think it says ultra on menu but it's actually ultra 2 that's how I remember it on my 906


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Gazoink, thanks for expanding on the PL thing. It was probably a good refresher for me to have. I was also reminded why I only use it for music, or the rare occasion that whatever I'm watching on dish has a 2ch soundtrack.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> Sorry but there is a THX ultra surround mode and my 805 has it, I use it all the time.


I had to research this a bit, so this one took a little longer, and there may be more later.

This highlights one of my problems with what THX has become, which is a huge lot of confusion. It used to be simple: Home THX. Then THX Ultra and THX Select, then Select2 and Ultra2, now Ultra2 Plus. The Selects and Ultras were tied to room sizes.

THX Ultra2 Cinema, as it appears on the Onkyo line, is not even mentioned anywhere on the *THX site's surround mode page*. The closest they mention would be THX Surround EX, which has no doubt been expended to what Onkyo is calling THX Ultra2 Cinema. They've managed to confuse things again, which is what they do best. From what's in the Onkyo manual, it's the latest "version" of THX Surround EX, and is undocumented on the THX site. I would guess they never meant it to be called THX Ultra2 Cinema, because it might be included on a Select2 AVR, causing more confusion. You'd want it on a Select2 7.1 AVR, but the buyer would see a conflict in terms: A Select2 AVR with Ultra2 processing? Huh? 

So, yes there's a THX Ultra2 Cinema mode on Onkyo...apparently only Onkyo...AVRs, but it remains undefined anywhere else in the world. As far as THX goes, it doesn't exist. But then, neither does THX Ultra2 Plus, another "Onkyo Only" feature.

Why, exactly, THX thought any of that was necessary when Dolby had already done it is beyond me. 

The other problem is, as mentioned before, the questionable and random need for full THX processing, specifically Re-EQ. Have fun figuring that one out. The only way is to make a subjective listening judgement, "Doesn't this sound a little dull?" and turn off THX processing, go to Dolby PLIIX.


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