# Budgeting a HT project



## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Hey all!

So, my wife offered me a choice of a new Avalanche or a HT room. After much consideration (like 5 seconds!:bigsmile, I decided on a HT room.

I have started by trying to set a budget so I have a rough idea of what this will cost, but I was wondering if anyone had an idea / opinion on what percentage of your budget should go towards chairs, equipment, etc.

From what I have read so far, it seems the biggest percentage of your HT budget should go towards chairs and equipment but I was hoping for a more definitive answer from those of you who have completed your projects.

Thanks in advance!


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

Good choice. Sounds like there's no new construction, so that will save you a boatload


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Nope, no new construction - it is a 14x21x7.5 basement room. It used to be a workout room, but it had become a place for the spiders to hang out.

I will be starting a new build post soon......


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

I see. Are you planning for any soundproofing? If so, that would certainly affect the budget


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

Sorry, just re-read your post. You won't be doing any construction, then.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Fortunately for me, all but one of the walls in that room is foundation concrete with none of it exposed. For those walls, my plan is to insulate and use quietrock drywall. The remaining wall I plan to do staggered stud again with insulation and quietrock.

As for the ceiling, I was planning to do the same, but I was planning on asking for other ideas in these forums once I reached that build point.

Do you have any suggestions / other ideas I should consider Ted?

Thanks for responding!


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

You might consider framing a single stud wall 1" from the foundation, insulating with simple R13, then using two sheets of $7 drywall with a field application of a damping compound. Exotic drywall is not only amazingly expensive, it is also going to perform much worse due to the distinct lack of mass.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Is that the method where Green Glue is used between sheetrock? I have seen that described in other posts. If so, would you do that on the ceiling as well? Since my ceiling height is only 7.5 ft, I am a bit leery of making that any shorter than I have to.


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

Yes indeed. A very common solution due to the performance vs. cost. You'll find posts back to 2004 of people doing this with great success.

Walls built this way are said to be "decoupled" which is a huge move to isolate low frequency bass. The ceiling would require simple clips and channel, then attach the drywall to the channel. Simple process with very large results. 










This is a way to use the clips without losing ceiling height


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

Not sure why that link is bad... stand by...


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Easy...your budget is EXACTLY what it would have cost you for the Avalanche. Thay way your wife cannot complain about your 4 18" subs....


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

LOL!


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

See, I figure if I come in a bit below that, I come out looking like a champ! 

Ted, I followed the link in your sig and read a bit on using clips. Seems like the right way to go, especially with 3 kids running around upstairs.


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

It's also the foundation to stop much of the bass from leaving the theater.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Do you have Any componets currently?
Projection or Plasma?
Theater seats? Number?
5-7-9-11.1?
Acoutical treatments?
Have you listened to a brand of speakers you thought were awesome? What were they?


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Ted, were you able to find that link for using the clips and losing little to no height? What is the normal shipping time on those clips?


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Andre, I have nothing as of yet. I am planning to go with a front projection set-up and probably 7.1 although I am considering adding a second sub after reading through these forums. I figured I would wait until I had some idea of design, layout and decor before I started shopping for componets so I would not buy something that was obsolete once I started to put it in..... 

As far as seating goes, I did already contact Roman.  I am going with 2 rows of 3, and right now he has a set of Lane 103's that would work as well as the new Fusion series Escapes. I am trying to decide if I spend a bit extra and get the Palliser set I saw at American TV which are Top Grain. Not sure on that one yet....

I have not even started thinking about treatments yet - man, there is so much planning that needs to happen!


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Since you know the size of your room and additional soundproofing will change that very little. I would now look at"

Where will my first row be? To determin the appropriate size of screen. Once you have selected your screen size you can use the calaculator on the projector central website to find a projector that can accomplish that size of screen while being at a point on the ceiling you like (some people like the projector forward of the seat, while others directly above, or behind)

Where do I want my equipment rack? built in on the size behind glass? Looks cool but I find it distracting. In a closet? Visible but in the back?

For your second row of seats you will want a riser, do you want this just for the seating area or raise the whole back of the room from that row back?

Do you want a consession area at the back? Popcorn/fridge...

Well that should give you a bunch to think about.....:dumbcrazy:


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

ALMFamily said:


> Ted, were you able to find that link for using the clips and losing little to no height? What is the normal shipping time on those clips?


If you check back that link is again active. Lead time is whatever UPS Ground is. Materials ship same-day.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Thanks Ted!

I was going to go with just 1 layer of drywall on the ceiling, and put the 1 layer between the floor joists like example #3 (or #4 - can't remember for sure) on your website for ceilings. 

I like that idea since putting that extra 2x4 block in there would create more mass and dampening for the ceiling, wouldn't it?


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

I would put that second layer on the clips&channel. The mass will do much more in that positon. The added mass will slow the oscillation of that spring system, thereby directly increasing the low frequency isolation. You also have the opportunity to introduce competent damping with two layers of drywall together like that.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Andre said:


> Since you know the size of your room and additional soundproofing will change that very little. I would now look at"
> 
> Where will my first row be? To determin the appropriate size of screen. Once you have selected your screen size you can use the calaculator on the projector central website to find a projector that can accomplish that size of screen while being at a point on the ceiling you like (some people like the projector forward of the seat, while others directly above, or behind)
> 
> ...


I guess I have given it a bit more thought than I originally said. 

My front row of seats will be at 10.5ft - I decided to go with the 92" screen due to the lower ceiling and the loss of a bit of the wall in the front of the room due to the breaker panel and sump pump. I also want to go with a stage theme and put the subs under the screen so I am a bit limited for screen size.

That will leave me enough space in the back of the room to put the equipment rack and potentially the projector - I would like to put it behind the 2nd row of seats, but I am not sure I will be able to due to the room configuration. It will unfortunately probably not be a straight wall.

I am going to put a popcorn machine and counter area in on one side of the room - the room has some odd corners due to that pu,p area and also the water pressure tank and main water line.

I think I am going to just start a build post - I seem to be asking a bunch of build related questions anyway. :heehee: I will have to get some pics taken so I can get that going - should be up in a couple days.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Ted White said:


> I would put that second layer on the clips&channel. The mass will do much more in that positon. The added mass will slow the oscillation of that spring system, thereby directly increasing the low frequency isolation. You also have the opportunity to introduce competent damping with two layers of drywall together like that.


I just want to make sure I understand what you mean. You are suggesting something layered like this:

upstairs floor
green glue
1st layer of sheetrock
insulation
2x4 blocking
clips and channel
2nd layer of sheetrock
green glue
3rd layer of sheetrock

If I am understanding the diagram correctly, this would make the ceiling just a little under 2 inches less than floor to joists. Does that sound right?


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## kjgarrison (Nov 17, 2007)

Hello all. Joe (the OP) and I have agreed to piggyback our nearly identical basement HT projects. Our thinking is that we will each learn from the considerable help that we will need and at the same time make it easier on you guys.

Like Joe my biggest problem from the design standpoint is identical: 7.5' ceilings. 

Other than that my room is a little wider at ~16' and a little longer at ~22'.

I too plan on front projector and am fortunate to have ample space behind the wall where the screen will be for all my equipment. The space is where the HVAC equipment is housed and is big enough to allow me to install a pair of IB subs; not that I intend to.

Going back over the thread so far, and combining it with things I have read from so many places I've lost track of, I have a couple of opening comments, concerns and questions.

Although I have the space and my wife's encouragement, I do not want to go to all the expense and time needed build a HT just to do it. I don't just want to build a HT either- I want to have an audiophile grade music listening room. Unless the viewing and listening experience can be first class, there will be no HT project, and as I see it, the biggest obstacle, not counting financial, is the difficulty with audio performance given the ceiling height. 

Is this a proper plan of design?
Plan on having the seating slightly off center and ~38% of the length of the room from either the back wall or the front wall. (In my case it needs to be closer to the front.) This placement then, determines everything about the video equipment needed such as screen size, PJ distance, etc. 

And most importantly, is there a real possibility of the kind of audio performance I want, given the room dimensions I have to live with?

Thanks for any help.

In my case the I need to be closer to the screen.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Sounds like your looked to optumize your room for music which will entail acoustical treatments. What those will be will also depend on the speakers being used.





Nice mirror trick for side wall panel placement.

Bryan Pape is one of the moderators of HTS and is a goldmine of treatment information.


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

ALMFamily said:


> I just want to make sure I understand what you mean. You are suggesting something layered like this:
> 
> upstairs floor
> green glue
> ...


Sure does sound right


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## kjgarrison (Nov 17, 2007)

Andre said:


> Sounds like your looked to optumize your room for music which will entail acoustical treatments. What those will be will also depend on the speakers being used.
> 
> Basic Room Acoustics with Electrostatic Speakers - MartinLogan - YouTube
> Nice mirror trick for side wall panel placement.
> ...



Yes, I do expect to be using acoustical treatments. I want to have excellent 2.0 or 2.1 listening experience and feel that if this part of the audio setup (mains + sub) works well enough, the HT part will follow without too much extra grief.

Thanks for the video. I had never really considered Martin Logan and didn't really understand the directivity of dipole speakers as discussed by Linkwitz. It sounds like the right kind of speakers can do a lot to make the room problems considerably more manageable.

Ken


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Just remember too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.


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## vann_d (Apr 7, 2009)

Controlled directivity (waveguide) designs and line arrays can also help with floor and ceiling reflections...


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Thanks Ted!

I am going to need to get whisper clips for a room that is roughly 14x21x7.5. Would you be able to give me some idea of how many I would need to get?

I am wondering how you put an outlet in a room that has been soundproofed using 2 sheets of 5/8" drywall. The outlet boxes I have seen would not be deep enough to nail to a stud and allow clearance through that thickness. Also, if you put an outlet box in, it seems like you have lost the work spent soundproofing - is there a way to put an outlet box in without losing your soundproofing?


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## kjgarrison (Nov 17, 2007)

Andre said:


> Just remember too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.


While oh so true, it is not clear to me which "good thing" you are referring to. :huh:



vann_d said:


> Controlled directivity (waveguide) designs and line arrays can also help with floor and ceiling reflections...


Which I assume would be particularly of interest to both Joe and myself with our problematic low ceiling height.

Along the same line of dealing with the low ceiling, is there a general consensus as to what other steps can be taken to overcome this handicap?

So, we've already learned that dipole speakers or CD speakers can help. But I looked at the videos of Martin Logan setup (thanks Andre) and there is so much emphasis on aiming them that I wonder if they might be too directional and not suitable for a HT where at least 3 seats would be in a row. Is more diffusion at the back of the ceiling or room something to consider?

I understand that sound isolation and room-in-a-room type decoupling are fundamental and help everything, and I intend to do all of that. That is a big part of all of this and is well covered. Though I wonder about the floor ...

What I'm mostly asking about is subsequent steps, such as acoustic treatments, and how these might be different for this one problematic small room dimension (height.) I've read that absorption panels on the ceiling is best for low ceilings. Is the thickness required or the expanse of the treatment different from the usual absorption used for bass at corners and where surfaces intersect? 

What about doing something with the floor? Currently I have carpet on under fabric on concrete. I don't want to worsen the height problem, but an inch or two might be worth it if it makes the height seem better.

In the end as I said before, if I can not end up with an audiophile quality listening room because of this low ceiling, I'm not doing it at all.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

"two much of a good thing is a bad thing" = You can over treat a room.

Have you read this?

www.auralexuniversity.com/acoustics101v3_0.pdf


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## kjgarrison (Nov 17, 2007)

Andre said:


> "two much of a good thing is a bad thing" = You can over treat a room.
> 
> Have you read this?
> 
> www.auralexuniversity.com/acoustics101v3_0.pdf


No I have not, but I will.

Thanks.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Ted, thanks for posting that image on how to use clips on the ceiling without reducing the height so much! That's a brilliant idea, and it never occurred to me. I may have to try something like this. Would using 2 layers of thinner drywall with green glue between reduce the effectiveness significantly? Or maybe one standard thickness and one thinner layer?

I'm also curious about sealing around electrical outlets and pot lights.


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

Hi Owen, If you've gone to all the trouble to install clips and channel, you really want the final drywall layer as heavy as possible. 5/8" drywall is the defacto product. Anything less is sort of a shame.

Any hole in the ceiling will start reducing performance, so keep the holes as small as possible and as few as possible. Ceiling cans will require a backer box: http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/CIM-backer-box-installation-web.pdf


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Thanks a lot for posting that Ted - I was also curious about how to soundproof any holes cut as well as the rest of the room.

Another question if you don't mind - how do you install a utility box for an outlet? The boxes I have seen are much too small to go through 2 5/8" sheets of drywall plus the gap created by the clips / channel.


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

Joe, Carlon makes a couple of interesting products. These are the blue bozed you'll find at Home Depot, etc.

B121ADJ is an adjustable single gang box. About $2.50 Also, you can use an extension ring, the B1EXT-CRD. A single gang outlet extender. 

All of this meets US electrical code.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Thanks Ted!!


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## kjgarrison (Nov 17, 2007)

OK, that covers what to do about thickness with electrical outlets. Do you then use acoustic caulking since you can't get to the back of it with those putty sheets?

What about lights?

What about doorways?

What about the hanging of a projector? Don't you have to run something anchored to a joist or joists through the two layers of sheetrock?


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

kjgarrison said:


> OK, that covers what to do about thickness with electrical outlets. Do you then use acoustic caulking since you can't get to the back of it with those putty sheets?
> 
> What about lights?
> 
> ...


I think you can put the putty sheets on prior to attaching them, but Ted can probably answer that better than I can. I do think you use acoustical sealant on them as well.

As far as lights go, I saw a great article on backer boxes. I think it was from Ted:

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/CIM-backer-box-installation-web.pdf

For doorways, I think either Ted or Bryan may have said solid wood core doors are best. There is also some kind of mounting to the floor I have seen that creates a more soundproof seal - kind of like a door jam. Here is a link I found:

http://www.soundproofing.org/infopages/soundproofing_doors.htm 

I have not looked at mounting projectors since I am planning on a separate projection / AV closet in th back of the room.

Hope this helps!


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## kjgarrison (Nov 17, 2007)

ALMFamily said:


> I think you can put the putty sheets on prior to attaching them, but Ted can probably answer that better than I can. I do think you use acoustical sealant on them as well.
> 
> As far as lights go, I saw a great article on backer boxes. I think it was from Ted:
> 
> ...


It does!

Thanks.


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