# Trio 12 end table build



## johnnyfamous

I have begun the box, I made a few modifications from the CSS plans. To add a little height my box is 19"x19"x22. I plan on putting it between a couple arm chairs and want it high enough to hold a lamp and drink.

The other deviation, I had Bob send me a Bash 300 with the kit instead of the 500. With a three year old and a new born, my budget is tight and the $100.00 i saved can go to diapers:gulp: 
my volume levels are always low (cant wake the little ones) so i figured aside from the decrease in max volume the combination would still be a good replacement for the current 15 year old 10" junker i bought from future shop years ago. I am selling it cheap if anyones interested:rofl: 

Your thoughts on the difference between the 300 or 500 would be interesting?


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## mwmkravchenko

Difference? What difference?

Here's the long and the short of it. Every doubling of power input raises the volume by 3 db. The same is true for halving the power = less 3 db. The good side is that 3 db is where most people just notice a difference.

Nice box!

Looks strudy and good quality pics. 

Your well on the the way to Boomdom!

Mark


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## Mike P.

Since you won't be pushing the sub to it's limits you'll do fine with the Bash 300 amp. Keep the pics coming! :T


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## johnnyfamous

I ordered my solid wood veneer off ebay, a great scource for unusual veneer is small quantities. If you have lots of cash you might be best off with vinyl backed veneer in a 4x8 sheet, but still then you dont get the rare stuff.

pictured bellow are birds eye maple that I plan on using on the top and macassar ebony with a figured pattern, very rare. in fact I have never seen ebony with a figure before.

I also won on ebay some inlay strips that I plan on using as a divider between the two woods.


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## BigHonu

As someone with young children, I can appreciate the need to save that extra cash! Diapers are NOT cheap! Good looking build!


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## johnnyfamous

spending $850cdn per month on daycare at the moment. it hurts!

was hoping to continue with the box this weekend, but it appears my wife has other plans for me, christmas lights!


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## robbo266317

If you need some inspiration for Christmas lights then check these:


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## mwmkravchenko

I lika the veneer!

Is this your first time veneering or are you an old Pro?

You sure have good taste that's for sure. Beautifull stuff.

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

LOL, i want the ditto house!


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## johnnyfamous

Pro would be a stretch. I have had allot of wood working and finishing experience both professionally and personally. I dont generally do things by the book, but opt for my own way using the limited tools that I have learning along the way.

have a look at the speakers I built in the link on my signature. I used the same veneering methods I plan to use here. 

This will however be my first inlay. I plan to build a guitar one day and wanted to practice inlays so I thought this would be a good opportunity to learn.


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## mwmkravchenko

> I have had allot of wood working and finishing experience both professionally and personally. I dont generally do things by the book, but opt for my own way using the limited tools that I have learning along the way.
> 
> have a look at the speakers I built in the link on my signature. I used the same veneering methods I plan to use here.


They look marvelous!

So how did you glue down the veneer? The job looks very good. I have done a fair bit. But I cheat and use different methods like a vacuum press and other methods. Been a professional cabinet maker off and on for over 22 years.

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

[/QUOTE] how did you glue down the veneer? The job looks very good. I have done a fair bit. But I cheat and use different methods like a vacuum press and other methods. Been a professional cabinet maker off and on for over 22 years.

Mark[/QUOTE]





what I would give for a vacuum press! thought of making one but the idea didnt last long. I use contact cement for the most part, up until now I have had no issues with delaminating so I hope they will stand the test of time:sweat: Think I will be fine.

I have not used a grain filler on the last speakers I built as I wanted to see the grain a little, thought on this build I might try a filler though, any recomendations on grain filler products? I have been using mowhawk brand lacquers. As this will be an end table I want the finish strong enough to take cups on the surface and dont want any pores where spills will go, not to say I wont kill whomever spills a drinkaddle:


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## mwmkravchenko

> what I would give for a vacuum press! thought of making one but the idea didnt last long. I use contact cement for the most part, up until now I have had no issues with delaminating so I hope they will stand the test of time Think I will be fine.


If you have an air compressor you have 3/4 of a vacuum press. The last quarter is making a bag. Easy to do. And then using the input on the air compressor ( the side where there is usually a filter actually sucks air into the compressor right! ) to create a vacuum in the bag. To make a bag use what ever you have on hand. I've used heavy vapor barrier or the bags I make for reuse are the plastic old ladies cover everything with! You know the kind. I use Tuck tape the red stuff to seal it up on the edges. Any normal air compressor fittings work in vacuum or compressed mode. And to seal up the bag I roll it over itself and clamp it between two boards. Once the vacuum sets it self seals. 

You can draw about 14 psi with a vauum press which is over one ton per square foot. I've broken objects by drawing to high of a vacuum with my pump that I picked up from a surplus store 15 years ago.

As for finish and filler.

Lacquer has only one redeeming quality. It dries fast. I personally use it on commercial stuff only. It has no durability in a home environment. You want a good polyurethane. Water borne is faster drying but not as hard as solvent borne. For easy to get stuff try Home Despot and MinWax urethane fast dry. You can put on three coats in a day with it. I know it is much slower than lacquer but it is resistant to water and most cleaners unlike lacquer. As for filler if you like Mohawk stick with it. They make good stuff. MJ Cambell also make good stuff. I sometimes also use Elmers fill n finish from Home Despot. The golden Oak is almost uncanny in it's ability to blend in. And a couple of others can be blended to color most problems away when needed.

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

Made some headway today. Began working on the "top plate", Not sure what you call them.? As you can see in the pictures I dont use a router to cut out my speaker holes. I dont own a plunge router or a circle guide, luckely I have a good jig saw and a steady hand:bigsmile: The sub and passive test fits looked good, hopefully will get some more work done this week.


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## johnnyfamous

mwmkravchenko said:


> If you have an air compressor you have 3/4 of a vacuum press. The last quarter is making a bag. Easy to do. And then using the input on the air compressor ( the side where there is usually a filter actually sucks air into the compressor right! ) to create a vacuum in the bag. To make a bag use what ever you have on hand. I've used heavy vapor barrier or the bags I make for reuse are the plastic old ladies cover everything with! You know the kind. I use Tuck tape the red stuff to seal it up on the edges. Any normal air compressor fittings work in vacuum or compressed mode. And to seal up the bag I roll it over itself and clamp it between two boards. Once the vacuum sets it self seals.
> 
> You can draw about 14 psi with a vauum press which is over one ton per square foot. I've broken objects by drawing to high of a vacuum with my pump that I picked up from a surplus store 15 years ago.
> 
> As for finish and filler.
> 
> Lacquer has only one redeeming quality. It dries fast. I personally use it on commercial stuff only. It has no durability in a home environment. You want a good polyurethane. Water borne is faster drying but not as hard as solvent borne. For easy to get stuff try Home Despot and MinWax urethane fast dry. You can put on three coats in a day with it. I know it is much slower than lacquer but it is resistant to water and most cleaners unlike lacquer. As for filler if you like Mohawk stick with it. They make good stuff. MJ Cambell also make good stuff. I sometimes also use Elmers fill n finish from Home Despot. The golden Oak is almost uncanny in it's ability to blend in. And a couple of others can be blended to color most problems away when needed.
> 
> Mark


Thanks mark, I would love to see some pictures or tutorial on your vaccume press in action. you make it sound easy:gulp:

I started Painting and Decorating when I was 16, had red seal Jurneymen TQ by the time I was 19. I have trained and taught many courses on finishing. I left the trade 5 years ago for several reasons, mostly because I was bored. :clap:

Terms are not what they once were, "Lacquer" is nitrocellulose dissolved in solvent , it offered, excellent flow out, poor water resistance,poor mar resistance, But was used mostly for its Super fast dry and ability to be used in most shop enviroments and still give a high quality finish without the need for buffing. You can still find it on cheap furniture from China. With its Cons out weighing its Pros manufacturers starting using Alkyd resins (among others), to combine the same flow,and finish properties of Nitrocellulose but the wear resistance of Alkyd based coatings. The term Lacquer is now used mostly to describe Lacquer " like" properties. There are so called Waterborne lacquers on the market that do not have the same spray abilities, at least i cant spray them anyway:R. Pre cat Lacquers offer me the ability to spray in my dusty shop, still producing a high quality durable finish. I used to have a down draft booth and the possibilities were endless. But now I dont have time to clean the dust off the floor:unbelievable:

Have you had any luck with spraying the minwaxx product?


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## mwmkravchenko

> Thanks mark, I would love to see some pictures or tutorial on your vaccume press in action. you make it sound easy


Sure it's easy. First you remove the word can't from your vocabulary and you replace it with "will find out what I have to do to get it done!"

Somehow I think your 95% the way there on that one.:R

A tutorial ouch. You aren't asking for to much eh!

A bag, a hose a platen with lines scored in it to let the air out around the pressed object. A tire valve stem in a hole in a big plastic bag sealed with shoe goo and voila. You hook this mess up to a air hose and the sucking end of a air compressor and you get a vacuum press. The rest I'll have to do with pictures on some of the builds I post later. ( the unofficial short short version )

I envy a properly trained finisher by the way. I went to watsamattau. I'm pretty good at it now but it was one steep learning curve. Pretty much sink or swim. At least I can spray water borne finish and it behaves for me. :whistling:



> Have you had any luck with spraying the minwaxx product?


The Minwax stuff sprays well it is not a fast dry as you know but it is durable. If you have access to Post Catalyzed you get a decent finish with that stuff. I'm strictly water borne now. To allergic to the solvents in the other stuff. I only spray solvent based when I absolutely have to.

If your contact cement method works well good for you. But in 10 years you may be in for some fun depending on the type you used.

Another way is this:

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/iron-on-veneering.htm This one is trying to sell you a fancy glue. But there are some decent tips on how to.

http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips/ironon.html This one is all how to.

Just clean the iron and put it back. It's all downhill from here if your wife finds out your handy and know how to iron:rolleyesno:

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

got a little more done, hit my first snag, Hopefully there wont be to many.

When measuring for the location of the passives, I forgot to allow for the fact that I was adding a "top plate" ( what do you call these things already?) to the woofer side and not the amp side, thereby throwing my center point out by 3/4 of an inch. So my passives are not centered:hissyfit: I guess I could add a "top plate" to the amp side??, this thing is getting heavy! 

I suppose I will be the only one that knows as the passives will be covered in grill cloth, but it still irks me.

I also had a chance to glue the top pieces together. I still need to cut it down slightly. I did a quick mock up of the corner and top just to get a visual.


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## mwmkravchenko

You know if you keep gluing things on that box it's gonna sound good and look classy. You realize that once you pull that off people come to expect that all the time!

Oh I just have to be bad sometimes. Make people appreciate it when I'm good. 

Mark:neener:


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## johnnyfamous

did a little painting this week. I had some paint laying around so i thought i would use it up. There is another member on here with some great "piano black" finish work that inspired me. I have not had a chance to polish yet, but i will before i start the ebony edge work. I paint motorcycles as another hobby. (wife often complains that i have too many:rant


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## mwmkravchenko

I like the depth you achieved.

Is that wet or dry with the pepsi can?

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

thanks. there is a day of cure on it.


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## Mike P.

Looking good!


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## johnnyfamous

hey Mike, i have seen you recommend foam tape to seal around the sub and passives on other posts. I always assumed the sub was self sealing as it seems to have a rubber surround of some kind. Is this not the case? and if i should use foam tape, the smallest stuff i can find is quarter inch thick by various widths. Seems too thick to me? I have seen speaker gaskets before and none seem to be thicker than a sixteenth.

Thanks.


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## Mike P.

Rubber gaskets have been known to leak. The quarter inch thick weather stripping will compress to a sixteenth.


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## johnnyfamous

installed the t nuts and started polishing . I sand with 2000 grit wet with a touch of dish soap. I have found the key to a good polish job is pre soaking your paper and then sanding in one direction. I then use three different polishes, Coarse, swirl remover, glaze.

Sorry my camera battery died so i used my cell phone.:rubeyes:


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## Mike P.

Did you apply glue to the T-nuts?


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## robbo266317

Mike, I can see Araldite or similar running from under the T-nuts in the previous post (14)


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## Mike P.

robbo266317 said:


> Mike, I can see Araldite or similar running from under the T-nuts in the previous post (14)


Yes, I see it now.


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## mwmkravchenko

Hey John

Lookin good. 

It's funny I have the same polisher I think. I got mine from Princess Auto. Works like a charm and cost me $35.

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

indeed! i dont often buy cheap tools, but if you dont use it to often, why not. mind you i think the motor is already starting to go:gulp:


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## mwmkravchenko

Well mines behaving. Take it back as long as they have one they will replace it.

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

Progress continues,, but slowly:foottap: I wana listen to this thing already.

I finished polishing, The pictures dont really do it justice, I could not get my camera to focus properly. I started to lay out the top, so far so good.:R


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## mwmkravchenko

Nice x 2

I think that cheapo polisher is still earning it self a place in your shop!

Hey I see you have a munchkin visiting! 

What do you mean bad focus!

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

mwmkravchenko said:


> Nice x 2
> 
> Hey I see you have a munchkin visiting!
> 
> Mark


Thanks Mark! my boy was down looking over things. number two on the way tomarow, have a c section booked. We will see if i have much time to completeonder:

After consideration I have decided to cold press my top. Without having any seems in past work there was never an issue with seem separation but now things have changed. One of the reasons I use ebony is because it is a very stable wood with little or no expansion. Thus there is none/little chance of delaminating using contacts. Birdseye Maple with several seems would be a totally different story. I think this would be one of the most demanding woods and probably would fail eventually using contact cements. I would hate to have any separation or delaminating after how long it takes to cut those tight seems. Without the time or interest in making a vacume press at present, I will cold press the top. ( i am about 240lbs so i figure i will stand on it until it dries:sarcastic 

I checked out the ironing glue you recommended but i dont know how it will hold up to a heavly seemed piece. my intent is to use titebond "ultimate" wood glue. It is easy for me to purchase and if i am not mistaken will provide a stronger grip than an actual coldpress glue?? the cold press glues have been hard for me to locate. I found a gallon jug at Richelieu but did not want to spend $40,00. I dont think there is a big difference aside from being able to get them in darker shades or perhaps a little longer set up time. Or am I missing something? I will be using a 2 day masking tape for seems, I can not find veneer tape locally and dont want to order anything in the mail. the masking tape was free:clap:


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## mwmkravchenko

Hi John

Hope everything turns out well for the next kid. I have two and the first one was a C section. Not fun to feel so helpless being a big guy. I weigh the same as you! But mine are almost 14 and 16 now. You'll cope!

Now for your cold press glue. I have seen it and never thought it was worth it. But to press your top your are going to need a of a lot of clamps. 

One thing about veneering that you probably already know is that compatibility with the substrate is the biggest factor to worry about. The thickness of the the veneer is what limits it's ability to expand and contract to much when it is glued down. MDF is about 8% to 10% uniform expansion in all directions. It will be a great substrate for your veneer. 

If you are stuck buy a whack load of sand bags at Home Despot or where ever has a good return policy and stack them up as high as you can. Tamp down the sand and it will give an even pressure. Pile on as much weight as you have at hand. A vacuum press does 14.6 PSI at my elevation. That's a lot of pounds per square foot 2104 pounds. So park your car on top!

MArk


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## johnnyfamous

Made some progress on the top veneer. I still need to cut it down and do the edges and inlay. There was a little rippeling when i took all the weight off, but it seems to be workable. The veener is thick enough, so i think i will be able to sand it smooth, Hopefully not a sign of issues down the line. I suspect this was caused by to much glue,? I still think I got a better bond with the contact, I had a few pieces of scrap left over from my last contact build and tried to chisel off the veneer, it took the mdf with it. the finished product looked better anyway.

I used your sand bag idea Mark, Thanks! I feel a little bad for using home depot like that, but what am i gona do with 330lbs of sand:devil:


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## mwmkravchenko

Hey John

I have to say the pictures do not do the job any justice! It's going to look great.

A thing I should have told you about using glue like you did is that it will cause ripples because of excessive water retention in the veneer. I know. Now I tell you! 

Here is what I would use next time. Polyurethane glue on the substrate. And a water mist on the veneer. Then use your Home Despot donated weights.

Ok the fix. Anybody can make mistakes but it takes a true craftsman to fix em!

Make a slit with a knife in the center of the bubble and put in some glue. Use a tooth pic or even the knife blade. Then clamp it down with either a C clamp or F clamp. If it to far in side the top then use a small block and a longer board. Place the block on the area you want pressure on and clamp down either end onf the longer board with your favorite clamp. This bends the board so that the pressure is greatest at the point where your block is. 

Best to use a chunk of something that glue does not stick to well. Melamine comes to mind. Or use an interface layer like paper or plastic. Your inventive. You'll figure it out. 

I know it's off topic for this thread but how did things turn out for the new little one? Good I'm hoping!

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

thanks mark, The little one is well, was a long three days. we are home now and i am off for three weeks, Hope to get some work done on the box, thats if i get any sleep:crying:

I took another close look, the veneer looks good, the ripples are small and I dont think it would be worth opening them up and gluing. I think most of them are glued, just a little ripply. There are a few on the ebony, that are not fully attached though, but they are small, i am worried about them getting worse if i open it up? they only way you can tell is if you run your hand across the grain. they are about a quarter inch wide and are 5inches long running with the grain. they are sitting up about 1/32" or less.

I have been toying around with the idea of using a eighth inch glass top to furthur protect the finish from cups and two small kids, dont know if i should or not? this may help with the ripply finish aswell but wont look as nice:yikes:


I am now leaning towards finishing the sides off with contact, they are straigt ebony with no seems and the workability on my end is much easier. I use a high solids solvent contact and have not had any issues at all.


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## mwmkravchenko

The only thing I have against contact cement and veneer is this. Over time it will fail. Contact cement does not like the seasonal shrinkage and contraction. I know your out west and it's drier. ( I grewd up in Manitoba ) But there are changes in humidity therefore changes in the veneer and substrate. The principle with veneer is that it is so thin that the woods tension created by the changes in size ( Oh yes wood objects change in size my friend ) is overcome by the adhesive. Contact cement has around 300 lbs/inch squared. Your yellow glue has around 1600 lbs/inch squared. That's the difference. The failure rate is around 6 to 10 years. If you are comfortable with that then go for it. If you still have flats and the sand bags. Then may I humbly suggest the polyurethane glue and a foam roller. As thin as you can roll on the substrate and then mist with water the veneer. It works well. But everything must have pressure on it or else the glue foams up and lifts the veneer.

One more trick for weight. Every litre of water weighs 1 kilogram or 2.2 lbs. A garbage can full of water is pretty heavy. Holes in the can? Use a bag. 

Heres one more trick I have used when I'm up the creek with no boat paddle friendly rocks...

Take a piece of sheeting material about an inch bigger than your panel to be laminated. Get yeah some clamps about one for every 4 to 6 inches around the out side. Your panel size needs about 16 clamps. Go to princess auto when they are on sale John. I have two large drawers full of 6 and 12 inch F clamps. 

Take your veneer and tape it in place like you have been doing. Put paper in the middle of the veneer about an eigth of an inch think then make a bit of a wide pyramid. The whole idea is this. The highest point of your pyramid should be about 3/16" higher than the outside edges. When you clamp down the board around the edges you can exert quite a bit of pressure from the middle out.

Another way is to use the same larger board and blocks and thinner boards to apply pressure to the center like the drawing below.

You have to apply the pressure as I have shown. If you curve the substate you will end up with a curved substrate when it dries. Bent lamination is a whole other ball game! They never unbend when the glue is dry.

Mark


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## Mike P.

> The only thing I have against contact cement and veneer is this. Over time it will fail.


Which type are you referring to? There's solvent based and water based contact cement.


​


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## mwmkravchenko

The shortest way to answer that question Mike is that I have used every type of contact cement you have named and a couple that John has mentioned. I never use the stuff on wood veneer. It fails as I mentioned.

Longer answer is that on commercial work that will be replaced before failure yes it gets used from time to time as it is a much faster method of applying flat veneer or curved veneers to panels. But as for longevity there are better methods. Iron on yellow glue method is one of the easiest and most forgiving. If John had used veneer tape to setup his book match and border he probably could have used the iron on method. You have to tape both sides when you need to play with setup a bit more than usual. Veneer tape is very thin and not a problem when under the veneer.

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

The contact debate continues. You make many valuable common sense points Mark, But I think given the type of wood i am using and the small amount of veneer, contact will last for many more years than 10. perhaps on a large panel with many seams, I would suspect a commercial enviroment would be more demanding on veneers than residential and perhaps you might see the fail rates that you state in a resturant but probably not in my constant temprature, low humidity house. I have used allot of the waterborne contact in commercial/instatutional settings and its strength compaired to solvent is poor at best. That being said, your not wrong.:surrender:

I dont understand though how a NON convertable coating (yellow glue) will have a stronger bond strength after it has dried and then heat is applied to reactivate (which in theory is not possible with non convertable coatings) than a solvent based contact? I would think that the bond strength would be similar to water born contacts. ???? It seems very easy to work with mind you.

I appreciate your experience here, thanks. I want this to last many many years, so I am not apposed to trying a better method, I dont have any veneer to waste on this though so there is no room for mistakes. Why do you need to spray the veneer with water when using the urethane glue? and do you spray it on the glue side or the finish side?


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## mwmkravchenko

Hi John

I'm just yakking about contact. It is an opinion. You have enough knowledge to make an informed decision. That is all I'm trying to aid. The failure rate is exactly what you describe. Heavy use and abuse. But that's what cabinets get up against in commercial use.

Urethane adhesives chemical reaction requires water as a catalyst. It is not really a true catalyst as in the sense of car paint or such. But without free water moisture the stuff takes forever to set. One side of a lamination is all that is required to be moistened.

With what you said about having only so much veneer. You definitely have the skills to do a good job with the contact cement. And I agree completely that the water borne stuff is much better than the solvent borne.

I have no specs on the iron on yellow glue method. What the heat is doing is creating a phase change. Like hot melt adhesive. Heat it up and it will re-harden together. Heat it up apply pressure and you should at least in theory get a better bond than contact cement. I have to put this stuff to the test on some samples and I will get back to you on that one. I have a whole bunch of prototype boxes I have to finish to keep some people happy! Maybe I can slip in some time on that job and get some actual comparisons.

I saw the coolest idea for a cheap vacuum pump last night. A guy used a pool air pump and hooked it up on the vacuum side of the pump. He measured 120 grams / cm^2 vacuum pressure. I get 1.7 lbs/ inch^2 or 1.7 * 144 = 245 lbs/ ft^2 A bit better than the weight idea. And about all you could generate with the clamp system I have used before.

Just for kicks and giggles I should take some pics of the next vacuum bag job. I have an actual pump I bought from princess auto about 20 years ago. But it can be done on your air compressor if you have one. Once you set up for that you will never go back to any other method. Bags can be made from 10mil polyethylene and tuck tape or even duct tape. And a double roll over a skinny board with some spring clamps will self seal the open end of the bag. 

Just causing trouble and raising dust!

Sorry to post common sense thought John. You are not just a finisher I think. You probably have quite a bit of cabinet experience as well.

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

mwmkravchenko said:


> Hi John
> 
> 
> 
> Urethane adhesives chemical reaction requires water as a catalyst. It is not really a true catalyst as in the sense of car paint or such. But without free water moisture the stuff takes forever to set. One side of a lamination is all that is required to be moistened.
> 
> With what you said about having only so much veneer. You definitely have the skills to do a good job with the contact cement. And I agree completely that the water borne stuff is much better than the solvent borne.
> 
> 
> 
> I saw the coolest idea for a cheap vacuum pump last night. A guy used a pool air pump and hooked it up on the vacuum side of the pump. He measured 120 grams / cm^2 vacuum pressure. I get 1.7 lbs/ inch^2 or 1.7 * 144 = 245 lbs/ ft^2 A bit better than the weight idea. And about all you could generate with the clamp system I have used before.
> 
> Just for kicks and giggles I should take some pics of the next vacuum bag job. I have an actual pump I bought from princess auto about 20 years ago. But it can be done on your air compressor if you have one. Once you set up for that you will never go back to any other method. Bags can be made from 10mil polyethylene and tuck tape or even duct tape. And a double roll over a skinny board with some spring clamps will self seal the open end of the bag.
> 
> 
> Sorry to post common sense thought John. You are not just a finisher I think. You probably have quite a bit of cabinet experience as well.
> 
> Mark



Hey Mark, So i tried a test of the polyurethane, the results were much better than the yellow glue, In fact was very impressed! I will give it a try on the top sides, i suspect i will have favorable results:sn:

Think we had our wires crossed, I think the adhesion of the solvent products are much stronger than the water born contacts not vise versa as you state,, but i suppose its irrelevant anyways..

I would appreciate it if you could post some pictures of your vacume press system. My hesitation has been cost, having no veneer to make mistakes, and not wanting to wreck my compressor....Probably a little lazy to try something new as well:unbelievable: 

I took a good look around princess auto yesterday. And they have a great fitting supply. I have a good understanding of what is needed but have a question, do you let the pump run continuos for two hours or would it not be wise to use a automatic pressure shut of to cycle the pump on and off as required? I did not see one there. I would hate to put that load on my compressor for an extended time.:help:


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## johnnyfamous

started work on the inlay, tricky to get the squares to line up at all four corners. I used a half inch mortise bit in my trimmer and set up guides, measured about 20 times before i started to route.

Had to hand chissel the outer corners, I will try the polyurethane glue to set, hopefully i get to it today. 


Hey is there a spell check on here??? my spellinz @#$% .:nerd:


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## mwmkravchenko

First the complements. Beautiful. The inlay will really set things off nicely. I'm happy the test worked out well for the polyurethane glue. I should have told you about that stuff first. Brain damage from to much contact cement when I was young and invincible. At least that's my excuse! 



> I took a good look around princess auto yesterday. And they have a great fitting supply. I have a good understanding of what is needed but have a question, do you let the pump run continous for two hours or would it not be wise to use a automatic pressure shut of to cycle the pump on and off as required? I did not see one there. I would hate to put that load on my compressor for an extended time.


Oh I have to do this... Ever hear of a valve? It shuts things off and stops stuff from moving in and out of pipes. :rofl2:

I know I'm bad. But this is going to be one of those Doooh times. 

You run the compressor given it is an oil lubricated compressor. It takes about 3 to 5 minutes depending on how big your bag is at the time and how much air you have squeezed out when closing it up. You have a ball valve in line and when you are happy that every thing has squeezed down to the point where it is actually tight you close the valve and shut off the compressor. Will it hold a vacuum forever? Probably not but it does give some time for your compressor to rest. Your gonna be watching it like a hawk for sure. Plus it's really cool to think that you are clamping with nothing but the pressure of 100 miles of air above you. Then your little brain will come up with all kinds of other things you can glue with type of a setup. You have to watch out. If you have already done some checking you'll find that the platen everything rests on should be cross hatched about 3/16" every so often to allow a path for the air to escape. I have snapped a couple of these when I'm pressing curved objects. On a flat you can break it but you have to draw quite a heavy vacuum to pull it off. Remember I use a dedicated vacuum pump. It is a rotary type compressor. But your air compressor will work quite well. If you are really sneaky you run a tank in line and shut off the system between the tank and the compressor and you have reserve vacuum just like you can have reserve compressed air when using a compressed air gun. But I digress. You have to cycle things every once and a while. You will get leaks from fittings just like with compressed air. SO my recommendation is to get a tractor tire metal valve stem and cement this to your bag close the end say about a foot back from the open end of the bag. You can also finangle some other fittings but you want as braod an ara as you can to glue the exit from the bag to the compressor or it will break loose quite quickly. I used shoe goo a couple of times and I have used silly cone as well. Flextra is another tenacious caulking. But here it is only available at Rona not Home Despot. Solder on a valve to the tire stem before so that there is no chance for a leak. If you have a fitting that will allow threading don't forget the teflon tape. If you figure out a different way to tap the bag make sure that the valve is as close to the bag as possible. And use a ball valve. I used a washer and seat type and it has always leaked. I'm going to change it over to a ball valve myself.

Pics of my setup will come in the latter part of January. My shop is being enormously revamped these past couple of weeks I'm trying to turn it from a setup and work shop to a well setup work shop and the vacuum pump and bag setup is in the shop attic. Not much doing up there. My setup is not al that pretty anyway. But it does work. I use it quite a bit when I have alot of flat P-lam to do. You never get lamination failure when you use yellow glue and it cycles in and out of the bag as high as you can stack it up in about 1/2 hour when you are doing doors and drawer ronts for comercial work. I had one client try to tell me that glue method would not hold. So I gave him a sample and offered the job for free if he could cause a glue failure. He paid for the job and was a happy camper to boot. But there are pics on the net that tell the story properly.

As for contact cement I think I'll stick with water based. It is better for my health as there are much less VOC's in the water borne stuff. I think it has come quite a ways from twenty years ago when we used to laugh at the stuff and say nothing holds better than solvent borne. The one I found to hold the best was formica brand from Richilieu. But the best of both is not even in the same league as the polyurethane you are planning on using.

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

mwmkravchenko said:


> Oh I have to do this... Ever hear of a valve? It shuts things off and stops stuff from moving in and out of pipes. :rofl2:
> 
> I know I'm bad. But this is going to be one of those Doooh times.



Ha,Ha,,,not quite what i meant mark,:rofl: I was reffering to one of these "automatic devices"

http://www.veneersupplies.com/product_info.php?products_id=58



Glad to see that there not required, how long do you hold the press for and are you just using yellow PVA glue or still the urethane? Do you use a wire mesh of some kind in the bag or just the hatched platens?


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## mwmkravchenko

Hi John

I clamp Yellow PVA for about 1/2 hour as it sets easily in that amount of time. Urethane you have to read the bottle as they are different for each. My bottles say 3 hrs at I'm guessing room temperature. I have bottles of Elmer's polyurethane in the shop right now.

The trick is to not use any more glue than you need. I roll it on with a small foam roller. The kind you can get at Home Despot for painting. They are cheap and they usually come with a little tray the first time you buy them. It puts just a thin film on the pieces and it works well and sets fast.

Thanks for the link to the vacuum switch. I have been looking for a cheap vacuum controller for years but they were always crazy amounts of money. Around $200 last time I really looked about 10 years ago. This one is cheap even though I will have to setup a relay for my pump as it is quite a beast. I bought it. When you are working in a shop not having to pay close attention to something if you don't have to is worth the money!

I'll let you know how it performs if you'd like. But you would have to replace your pressure switch on your compressor to make it work. If you have an old compressor then great but if you need your compressor for regular duty then it is not of much use. There are surplus sites on the net where you can find cheap vacuum pumps from time to time. Vacuum can be used for all kinds of clamping and work holding where there is sometimes no other way to accomplish it. Tons of possibilities.

I have used hatched platen exclusively. Come on a cabinet shop always has scrap pieces kicking around right? I use the scrap to make a platen. Sometimes they last a while. 

I have not used Urethane in a large layup as of yet. I have used a lot of urethane on projects for quite a few years but I have not done any large amount of vacuum pressing for at least 6 or 7 years. Clientele shift was one thing that changed my usage pattern. Divorce 13 years ago where my ex sold my complete shop for pennies kind of screwed up things for a while to! That's when I did some carpentry for a couple of years and then Graphics design for 2 years. Then back to good old cabinet making. 

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

finally finished the inlay.was not that much work or as hard as i thought, just finicky. The urethane glue worked a charm!


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## mwmkravchenko

Looking great!
Like your application of the interior clamping. Those boards look like they are really putting on the pressure. Can't wait until you have some finish on it to really show off the contrast in the color.

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

Hi John

I have been looking through the www.joewoodworker.com sight that explains all about vacuum presses. Wow I learned a couple of things to. Great sight. I used a timer switch on my pump so that I could set it up and let it run to draw a vacuum. Worked but not that much elegance behind it. I particularly like the idea of making vacuum reservoirs out of PVC pipe. Cheap and not dangerous. I was toying with the idea of using an old propane tank from my barbecue but it's a pain to find the right fittings.

When I ordered the switch I did not read enough of the sight to understand that there was a link to joewoodworker.com that explained a more thought out system for working with a bag and reservoir. You can't learn any more from me then is on that sight my friend. Great resource. Thanks again!

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

yes it is a great site. I too like the pvc pipe, very cheap solution. At the end of the day though you still need to buy 2-300 worth of gear if you follow there recomendation, I think your system sounds a little cheaper and simpler, I like cheap! i dont use it enough to spend much money on the build.

So far the urethane glue is working well! I just set one of the top edges, we will see how she comes out


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## mwmkravchenko

Cheap is good as long as it works well. My timer switch did and does work. But it is not the best solution. But coupled with some vacuum reserve and that crazy little unloading switch I think it could be a very much better system fir less than a $100. 

As for you if you want you can do the same type of setup with the compressor. I was thinking about this last night and it should work. If you make up the reservoirs and the un-loader system which by the way I think you can get the same solenoid valve from Princess Auto. I'll check on that one. You should be able to get a relay and wire it up to the compressor as if it was plugged into it. Just one big switch to turn it on and off at the will of the vacuum switch. You would need an oulet wired to the contactor side of the replay that the Vacuum switch could actuate. Normally a compressor starting current is 3 times the running current. That little vacuum switch does not have heavy enough contacts so they sell that relay to switch the greater load. You might even be able to pick up the relay locally. Save on the shipping.

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

Cut the top down to size, started veneering the ends. I use my trimmer to cut off the excess, i think some people do this by hand with a saw,, not sure why this way is quick and makes for a nice clean job.


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## Bengoshi2000

I'm LOVE-ing the inlay...


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## johnnyfamous

Made slow progress this morning. Its going to take a long time to veneer each piece. I am debating now if I should finish/clear all the pieces before I attach them to the box, would make finishing a little easier.

Spend most of my time waiting for the glue to set:foottap:


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## mwmkravchenko

Hi John

Looks like a real Pro job!

Can't wait for the finished pictures. I'm happy you have the polyurethane going so well for you. I'm still kicking myself for not telling you about that stuff first. Oh well. The top still looks good. And everything else you are doing is looking wunderbar.

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

Thanks Again Mark!

Have still bean gluing the veneer,,, slow... I was having issues with the glue seaping through the grain under clamp pressure and sticking to the pressing surface, Started using waxed paper between the veneer and pressing surface, problemo no more:heehee:

have been sanding the pieces and top smooth as i wait for glue to set, laid down a light seal coat on the top and one of the corners. starting to hear it play already:bigsmile:


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## Mike P.

That is simply gorgeous! Looking forward to seeing the finished product!


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## johnnyfamous

Thanks Mike!

A quick question to confirm, The PR came with 20 x 45 gram disks. for my tuning i will want to use only ten in each PR? Will there be any other difference from the original design given that i am using the 300 watt bash as apposed to the 500w?


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## evilskillit

Man that looks good. I gotta try veneer, you guys make it look so easy.


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## johnnyfamous

Lacquered the top and corners, i took a few pictures of the corners but they did not turn out so good. 

sand 120 - 220
One coat sealer 
sand 320
one coat lacquer
flash off for 30 min,
sand with 400 
final coat lacquer


I never did end up using a grain filler as I originally thought.


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## mwmkravchenko

I think WOW!

Tough act to follow John.

Mark


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## Bengoshi2000

:drool:


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## johnnyfamous

with the new baby, i get to work on this in hour increments:crying:

I did silicone a light bead along the inside corners, I dont think it was nessesary but might as well take no chances:gulp:

I did put half inch foam on the bottom and the top, i had it laying around.

Set one of the corners, was planning on doing all four but i was beckoned away:crying:


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## mwmkravchenko

Hey I can see my face!

Way to cool. 

Just think of the new little guy drooling on it then gnawing the corners when he is teething! Oh the joys of fatherhood. Mine are almost 15 and 16 if they do anything to my stuff I make them a coffin, er large sub box with no holes of course.

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

Hey John

What I make snide remarks about our youngins and you post no more????? :scratch:


How's the box coming along?

I got my vacuum switch last Friday and I have to figure out where to either get a relay locally or order one from the net. To much information on that crazy vacuum press website but I made a PDF of it and have read it over a few times. Quite inspiring.

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

Hey Mark,
Have been elbow deep in baby land and had to go back to work last monday:crying: I will be lucky to get this project finished at all:unbelievable:

it is a good site, let me know how you make out with the switch. 

I have been following your Horn build thread. looking forward to seeing the results! my next project will be a 2.1 set for my computer room, the horn might be an interesting option.


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## johnnyfamous

made not so much progress, but some is better than none i suppose:flex:

I finished setting all four corners, I over glued one of them and had a big mess of glue seeping out all over the finished black, i got it cleaned up but it maid for a tense hour:rant:

Started the edge veneer for the cross pieces,, nothing new here, same process as before.

installed weather seal foam tape for the woofers to seat.

we will see if i get back to this today or not:dontknow:


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## mwmkravchenko

Hey John

Welcome to the lovely reality of being a Dad! I guess times two now. :sn:

By the way because you are being a good Dad you are not working on the box. So no hurry from this Dad either! :T

Hey I almost see your face in the last shot. Pretty nice sheen on the black. Sorry to hear about the glue run away. It is stuff to be respected. It foams up and misbehaves everytime you don't treat it with kid gloves. Nasty to get it on your fine finish.

As for me very busy to winding down to busy. So yep I'm getting the horns up and running. Getting to the point of doing a full scale layout. I'm also working on some kick butt mains that should do some shaking rattling and rolling. All in due time my friend. Something about earning a living getting in the way of having fun.


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## johnnyfamous

have made very little progress in the last two weeks, i have finished veneering on the cross pieces and hope to lacquer this weekend. i had a local glass supplier cut a piece for the top. i prefer the look without the glass but this table will see heavy use with coffee/tea cups. I plan on letting it sit right on top of the wood, i hope this will not create an issue with vibration or delaminating of the top?onder:


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## mwmkravchenko

Hi John

Looking great!

About the glass you might try some clear rubber baby belly bumpers.

Mark


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## gxstress

Looks fantastic:bigsmile:


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## Binary

i showed my girlfriend this as an example of how easily you can blend this kind of equipment into furniture and what kind of results are possible for diy. You are an inspiration with that inlay. Great work!


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## johnnyfamous

an inspiration,, wow thanks, i think i overshot a little. i tend to get a little carried away on projects at a cost of hours and hours of my time. I guess thats the fun part though, having something to look at and listen too for years and years justifying all that time spent.


progress continues, began setting the cross pieces. i will be installing a grill, curious if i was to use half inch mdf, would that allow enough room for the woofer excursion?? I would think not at higher spl but would it really be an issue if the woofer hit the fabric every so often?

I think the look would be nicer if i could have the grill recessed slightly.

also curious if anyone has had any luck using magnets to attach larger grills?? i have a bunch of the plastic plug type but think a magnet might be a nice fit?


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## mwmkravchenko

Hi John
Your progress is getting me into trouble. I have three projects on the go as of right now. To many irons in the fire.

Magnets do work well as stays for grilles. I used to make up a bit of a system but since Lee Valley sells it already made I just buy their setup.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=58750&cat=1,42363,42348&ap=1

Works like a charm. If you go for the big ones you will have one big struggle on your hands to get the grille off!

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

exactly what i was after, i placed an order for the 3/8 set x three. thanks Mark:bigsmile: 

unfortunate they dont come in black,, but thats an easy fix.


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## johnnyfamous

johnnyfamous said:


> i will be installing a grill, curious if i was to use half inch mdf, would that allow enough room for the woofer excursion?? I would think not at higher spl but would it really be an issue if the woofer hit the fabric every so often?
> 
> I think the look would be nicer if i could have the grill recessed slightly.


No one have any thoughts out there?? I am curious but have not decided yet which way to go?onder:

thanks.


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## mwmkravchenko

Ok I'll bite

1/2" is what about 12 mm right? The excursion on your TRIO12 is linear to 20mm and you plan on putting a layer of fabric right about at it's half way mark? Me thinks it will knock about at times. Damage your woofer probably not. Is 1/2" all the room you have? I'm guessing that the side posts you veneered are 3/4" . That may be a bit more on the safe side. 

The thing is you won't really hit max excursion all that often. When you do though you don't want the surround to be rubbing against something either.

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

I think its just you and i on here Mark. i get caught up on the details/looks that no one will notice but me< a little peticullar I know.

I suppose for the sake of building this thing properly i should use 3/4,,just don't think it will look as nice. is it just me?


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## mwmkravchenko

It's lonely at the top my friend.

If you plan on listening loud and proud you should go with the thicker cover. Polite levels will only occasionally cause your driver to rub the grille cloth. Your choice. But mine would be to go with 1/2" like you think is nicer looking and sink the driver the remaining 1/4" into your ample thick baffle. We don't want to mess up the look of the box after all the work you put into it!

Mark


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## Mike P.

I used 3/4" MDF for a grill on one of my subs. With a 3/4" round over on the outside edge it looked good.


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## johnnyfamous

Mike P. said:


> I used 3/4" MDF for a grill on one of my subs. With a 3/4" round over on the outside edge it looked good.


your build looks nice! thanks mike. The right thing to do here is 3/4 so i suppose thats the way i will go. Not sure how long it will take to get my magnet order,,hopefully not to long, i am almost ready for them.

i am almost finished setting cross pieces, while i waited for the glue to dry i mounted the foot spikes that come with Bobs kit. they are quite nice and easy to adjust. 

hopefully get to install the top in the next couple days:sn:


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## johnnyfamous

had a chance today to glue and screw the top on. I got a little excited and installed the amp and sub, hopefully the magnets come this week:hissyfit:

this beast is well over 100 lbs, gona need some help getting it upstairs:dontknow:


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## fackamato

Wow! That is awesome some craftmanship! Post listening results asap! And of course measurements, if you can :T


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## johnnyfamous

thanks<, i installed the passives, i barley made it upstairs, i got a feeling she is close to 200 pounds.

i am still waiting to finish grills and will post those pictures soon.

my first thoughts are this thing digs deep!!!!!!:clap: I need to wait until the baby is out of the house to really test it out.

the base is a little directional even set at 60hz, given the size I have no choice but to place the sub of to the side of my room ( not ideal but unavoidable) I think like any new change in system there is a adjustment period where things sound different but hopefully i can get used to the directional bass.


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## johnnyfamous

recieved the magnets, never had a chance to make the grills yet, maybee next weekend:crying:

the sub sounds amazing.. very deep and clean..I cant beleive what people are spending on commercial stuff out there..

i am trying to get my hands on an spl meter to even out the system... i tried the internal mic on my macbook and fuzz measure but i dont think it was very accurate??


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## Mike P.

That is a gorgeous sub, well done!


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## mwmkravchenko

Nice pics John!

Not so good placement though. How does it sound close to that great big empty stairwell? Sometimes weird placements can sound OK.

Spl meter?

Rat Shack has them for a decent price. They will work with REW to. I think the program will run on your Macbook as it is Java based.

Mark

P.S. You could borrow my meter but the shipping would be half the cost of one there.


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## corock

Absolutely beautiful sub. You can really tell you took your time putting it together. It would be amazing just as an end table, never mind a functioning sub.


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## johnnyfamous

hey mark, thks for the loan offer...

i got the bug now so i figure i should get an ecm8000 mic and start having some fun. I have been questioning the response of the towers i built so i am excited to get a reading:heehee:

placement is not ideal... unfortunatley i dont have a choice, its either here or in a corner, my old sub was in the corner and it sounded boomy. I played around with the last sub moving it all about and it actually sounded nice between these two chairs.


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## johnnyfamous

mwmkravchenko said:


> Nice pics John!
> 
> 
> Spl meter?
> 
> Rat Shack has them for a decent price. They will work with REW to. I think the program will run on your Macbook as it is Java based.


forgot to ask,,,, still learning about test equipment, Can i use an spl meter to connect directly to my mackbook without a preamp? would save me some money and time trying to find a preamp.

If i am not mistaken i need an ecm8000 and a preamp with phantom power?? I found the mic for about 75.00 but having a harder time with the preamp,,,


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## mwmkravchenko

Hi John

Your best bet for what you will be working on is use a SPL meter. You save the coin on not needing a mixer or power supply. You can get a SPL meter for around $50 at Rat Shack.

There are files within REW that allow good calibration to flat response for that meter.

And yes you can plug it directly from the SPL meters own pre-out jack on the left hand side when looking at it for actual use. Ie pointing at the source to be analyzed.

And yep measuring is interesting. It can be disappointing at times when you get different readings than what you expect but it makes you more knowledgeable. I think that is worth a lot of time and money. Understanding what happens when you create a box and where you put it.

Mark


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## vann_d

This is exactly the kind of build I want to do. Outstanding! I'm gonna steal as much of this design as possible. I don't think I can match the workmanship though.

Hopefully I'll be getting a Quartet 15 kit with my tax return...

Again, excellent build.


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## johnnyfamous

vann_d said:


> This is exactly the kind of build I want to do. Outstanding! I'm gonna steal as much of this design as possible. I don't think I can match the workmanship though.
> 
> Hopefully I'll be getting a Quartet 15 kit with my tax return...
> 
> Again, excellent build.



awesome :bigsmile:steal as much as you like... thanks.


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## johnnyfamous

the grills cometh along,,,


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## mwmkravchenko

Hi John

Are you actually able to paint outside?

It's fairly warm here but fairly warm means 2 or 3 degrees above freezing! 

I'll need a whole month and a half before I can paint outside!

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

mwmkravchenko said:


> Hi John
> 
> Are you actually able to paint outside?
> 
> It's fairly warm here but fairly warm means 2 or 3 degrees above freezing!
> 
> I'll need a whole month and a half before I can paint outside!
> 
> Mark


I have been golfing twice already,,, going to be plus 12 all week:sn:


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## mwmkravchenko

That's it. I grew up near Winterpeg Manitoba. I move out here and laugh at the "winters" and now I have to deal with these B.C. sun bathers! :crying:

AHAHAHAHAH :hissyfit:

LOL :sarcastic:

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

well, it seems its been a couple months,,, the sub sounds awesome!! wish i had two.. 

I made a RCA cable using RG6, worked very nice. I have spent way to much on fancy cables over the years.

I found a little time this morning to drill and install magnets on the grills.


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## fackamato

Wow! Good job! It looks awesome! Do you have any measurements for us?


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## mwmkravchenko

SHveet!

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

any thoughts on adding a second trio 12? whats to be gained?:spend:


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## Mike P.

You would gain more ouput and the ability to smooth out the frequency response by trying different sub placements.


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## johnnyfamous

would there be a difference if i used the 10" as apposed to the 12" i have very limited space... it almost seems not worth going with the 10" kit as the price on the trio 12 is not much more.


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## Mike P.

The same subs will have the same output and response, it's what I would do and have always done. All my HT subs are in pairs.


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## mwmkravchenko

My two cents.

Everything Mike says. Louder will not be to noticeable. Only about 3 to 6 db depending on the frequency. But the greater evenly loaded listening room will be very noticable. You will have half the dead zones in your room. Areas where there is no real bass sensation due to reflections calceling it out. Driving the room from another point will help to get you a much more even response.

Mark


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## johnnyfamous

Well, im sold,, dont care so much about the output as i do the even listening. bass is heavey on the right side and its driving me nuts


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## mwmkravchenko

> bass is heavey on the right side and its driving me nuts
> http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/23297-trio-12-end-table-build-11.html#ixzz0yJQ6wYM0 ​


So is this a long slow drive or a quick shot across the street type drive?

Hehe!

Mark

Hey I can relate. I'm still trying to figure out how to properly measure the horn loaded monster that i built. Even output is not the problem there. structural damage is the problem!

Mark


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