# Dolby Atmos 7.2.4 in an 11x14 dedicated HT



## Zakk (Jan 6, 2017)

Let me start by saying I know the room is WAY smaller than ideal, but I have no other options. I am looking for input on the speaker placement with my current wall configuration as I do not have the room to precisely follow the Dolby Atmos guidelines and none of the walls can be moved. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, I am attaching a diagram that I think will explain my current plan. One obvious problem is that there is no room to place the speakers farther than a few inches behind the listening position in the rear row.

A few notes:
• This is a dedicated theater space
•Considering a Yamaha 3050, 2060, or 3060
• I want to optimize this for action and sci-fi movies
• I am adding a soffit around the sides and back into which speakers can be installed or hung from (as well as baffles)

I am very interested in knowing if Atmos will work with this type of available positioning and/or with a room this size.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I would suggest going with only one row of seating first off. Second, I think that screen is going to be too large for that room. I'm not sure how good the separation is going to be with all of those speakers clustered together in such a tight space? Most of us have to make concessions and work with what we have though.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Agreed. If you must have 2 rows, a 2 and 3 configuration would be better. The rear 2 corner seats will be pretty much unusable sitting in corners. The screen is definitely pushing and forcing front speakers into corners - which also precludes bass control in the room. Lastly, with the 2 rows, the front row head position is very very close to center front to back which will put you in all of the room modes and your bass response will be all over the place.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I agree with Jeff. Sometimes less is more, and putting 10lbs of stuff in a 5lb bag just to say it's in there can sometimes be mostly for pride. I would also go with a single row and try to do 5.2.4. Rear surrounds (ala 7.1) should have at least 4-5' behind the LP and putting them there for the sake of having them just won't add anything and will be a distraction more than an immersion. Also by getting a single row of seats off the rear wall will give you better bass response and allow the atmos speakers to be placed properly. It also looks like with 2 rows, the front row will be in the center of the room, which will be a bass vacuum. The extra money not spent on second row seating and rear surrounds could be spent on sound treatment which would be money better spent imo. The mains being so close to the walls will need some help, and bass traps won't hurt either. 


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## Zakk (Jan 6, 2017)

Guys, I greatly appreciate and really value the feedback. I should add a few bits of information to clarify where I am in the process and what I am ok with changing. 
• I have already ordered 7 theater seats and there is no changing that, plus I need the 7 seating positions.
• If the bass response in the front row sucks (as you have all agreed it will), I am actually ok with that since the front row will mostly be for kids
• I already have the screen and am very happy with the size
• I am open to changing the speakers to fit beneath the screen (screen is 36" off the floor)
• I am open to using more or less surround speakers and moving their placement
• I am adding a layer of QuietRock w/ Green Glue to all the walls, sound deadening panels on all the walls, sound insulation in the attic, solid door (not sure what to do with this yet), and deadening all the outlets

My original plan for this room was to move eliminate a wall and make a larger space, but this turned out to be nearly impossible for structural reasons.

Thanks again for your input and continued help with ideas.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

The front row will still sound better than the back row. The back row will have a really really hard time with dialog intelligibility and surround field. If the screen is returnable, I would get a smaller one and allow you to move both rows forward - front away from center length and rear away from the wall behind - then treat that wall with 6-8" thick panels with a limp membrane to minimize mid and high absorption and just concentrate on the lows and lower mids which will be what is causing the issues.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

If the screen is too big for your liking...just make some black panels to matt it...then in the future if you get a bigger room, you don't have to buy another screen.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yes I forgot to include the surround field being compromised in the back row up against the wall too. That would effect my decision probably more than questionable bass performance. I'm a believer in surround speaker performance just as much as the fronts for the best experience. I might cancel the other row of seats if not shipped yet and let the kids have beanbags or something. I'm possibly a bit more selfish though and for all the expense, I would focus on adult experience. Ron and Brian have given good advice also. 


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

just my 2 cents.... forget about green gluing your walls... just buy as much OC703 as you can afford and double that up on your walls...

http://www.buyinsulationproductstore.com/owens-corning-703-fiberglass-acoustic-board-4-3/

these are some of the best prices i have found and will make a huge difference in your bass response. 

i plan to triple these up ... line the walls and hang some on the ceiling wrapped in black GOM fabric.


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

i second the bean bags... i have a 12 by 18 room and im just doing one row and bean bags if people want them. i also am looking for a narrow reclining love seat for 2.


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

Just another option.. look at the emotiva BASX line of products... would be nice ... good price as well.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hi zakk. You mentioned moving the screen up and putting the speakers under the screen. My personal feeling is that mains need to be to the sides of the screen so that off screen pans can follow the horizontal line off to the sides. Everyone's mileage may differ but I thought that was worth noting. 


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

Get an ATS screen!

We will spend your money here...


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## Zakk (Jan 6, 2017)

Thanks again to everyone for taking their time to give me feedback on this. I am really not open to changing the seating configuration and I am not looking for a different screen or to move the screen. I will add sound absorbing panels and bass traps. I am open to using more or less speakers, but nothing in the room is being put there just for show (or "ego").

To get back to my original inquiry, I am trying to simply determine if there is a way to make Atmos work in this space or if I am better off sticking with 5.1 or 7.1 surround. I have various surround speakers and two sets of mains to choose from, but I am willing to get other speakers (like dipoles), if they would make more sense for the space. The only thing I will not do is eliminate a row of seats so the seating layout I showed is what we have to work with here. Based on this, I am trying to determine the best speaker position and configuration.

I do not mean to come off as combative about the feedback, it is just that all the suggestions are not working within the parameters of the project. Ideally my room would be 5 feet wider and 10 feet deeper, but it is simply not possible so I am trying to make the most out of the space I have and the number of seats I am getting.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I think you could still make Atmos work with 2 ceiling speakers in the middle of the room. Forget trying 2 back speakers with the current seating arrangement. 2 side speakers is doable although not ideal if anyone is sitting in the outside seats of the rear.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Zakk said:


> Thanks again to everyone for taking their time to give me feedback on this. I am really not open to changing the seating configuration and I am not looking for a different screen or to move the screen. I will add sound absorbing panels and bass traps. I am open to using more or less speakers, but nothing in the room is being put there just for show (or "ego").
> 
> To get back to my original inquiry, I am trying to simply determine if there is a way to make Atmos work in this space or if I am better off sticking with 5.1 or 7.1 surround. I have various surround speakers and two sets of mains to choose from, but I am willing to get other speakers (like dipoles), if they would make more sense for the space. The only thing I will not do is eliminate a row of seats so the seating layout I showed is what we have to work with here. Based on this, I am trying to determine the best speaker position and configuration.
> 
> I do not mean to come off as combative about the feedback, it is just that all the suggestions are not working within the parameters of the project. Ideally my room would be 5 feet wider and 10 feet deeper, but it is simply not possible so I am trying to make the most out of the space I have and the number of seats I am getting.


I don't think anyone was saying that your setup was for show or ego, but i can tell you that my listening area is about 20' long and 19' wide, and I removed my seating in the 2nd row as it is just to close to the rear wall.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

ellisr63 said:


> Zakk said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks again to everyone for taking their time to give me feedback on this. I am really not open to changing the seating configuration and I am not looking for a different screen or to move the screen. I will add sound absorbing panels and bass traps. I am open to using more or less speakers, but nothing in the room is being put there just for show (or "ego").
> ...


 Mine is 30' X 20' and I feel it is too small.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

My bad. The ego point was made by me, but was my fault for not making it clear I wasn't talking about the OP. What I meant by that was I've seen it before where people just HAVE to have every box checked. Since zakk came here looking for advice I didn't think that was the case so I didn't think I needed to clarify. 
So after all that, I say go 5.2 with dipoles. Maybe go for 5.2.2 but don't waste any money on 7ch. 


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> My bad. The ego point was made by me, but was my fault for not making it clear I wasn't talking about the OP. What I meant by that was I've seen it before where people just HAVE to have every box checked. Since zakk came here looking for advice I didn't think that was the case so I didn't think I needed to clarify.
> So after all that, I say go 5.2 with dipoles. Maybe go for 5.2.2 but don't waste any money on 7ch.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would def go for at least 2 subs. :T


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## Zakk (Jan 6, 2017)

willis7469 said:


> Hi zakk. You mentioned moving the screen up and putting the speakers under the screen. My personal feeling is that mains need to be to the sides of the screen so that off screen pans can follow the horizontal line off to the sides. Everyone's mileage may differ but I thought that was worth noting.


To be accurate, I did not say anything about moving the screen at all, but I have speakers that will fit beneath the screen if there is an advantage to that. My current main speakers are Polk LS90s (L-C-R) which I love the sound of, but I also have a pair of Klipsch that are shorter. Both are probably fine for theater purposes, but the Polk blow away the Klipsch for music listening. I mentioned this in response to Bryan Pape's comment "The screen is definitely pushing and forcing front speakers into corners - which also precludes bass control in the room"




willis7469 said:


> So after all that, I say go 5.2 with dipoles. Maybe go for 5.2.2 but don't waste any money on 7ch.


Since 5.2.2 is 7 channels (as far as I understand the nomenclature), I assume you mean not to waste the money on the 7.2.4, correct? So, would your suggestion be to use the dipoles for the height effects? I am not clear on which speakers you are suggesting to eliminate. Let's assume, for a moment that my receiver will have 9 channel capability and I already have the speakers (I am testing SVS surrounds and effects right now, but I really love my B&W Rock Solid Monitors and have enough for either configuration), would you still suggest 5.2.2 over 7.2.4? I am wondering if there is actually an advantage to the 5.2.2 in my situation (taking money out of the equation). Any dipoles you like?



JBrax said:


> Mine is 30' X 20' and I feel it is too small.


I have space envy! Your space is nearly 4 times the size of mine! You know the famous quote "I cried because I only had a 600 sq ft theater until I met the man who only had a 150 sq ft theater"? They were talking about you! :wink2::crying2: 



JBrax said:


> I think you could still make Atmos work with 2 ceiling speakers in the middle of the room. Forget trying 2 back speakers with the current seating arrangement. 2 side speakers is doable although not ideal if anyone is sitting in the outside seats of the rear.


Do you think the rear ceiling speakers would make it sound worse or just no big advantage? I assume you would recommend the ceiling speakers over wall mounting the height effects, correct? Would you recommend dipoles for the side effects?



fschris said:


> Get an ATS screen!
> 
> We will spend your money here...


Why? I love my Silver Ticket screen



fschris said:


> Just another option.. look at the emotiva BASX line of products... would be nice ... good price as well.


I am not familiar with their equipment beyond what I have read on their site? Do you feel these are better than the Yamaha RXA2060 and 3060 receivers?


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Rear speakers (ceiling or back) would just muddy the sound due to space constraints. Dipoles might be best although some recommend against using them. I use them (Klipsch rs-42 II's) and they work fine in my room.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

If you love the sound of the polks then I'd use them. If they sound better on music , they'll sound better on movies too. But since you have the klipsch try both ways. See which way you like the best. Maybe under the screen will be ok for you. 
My 7ch point was 7.x or 7.x.x includes rear wall mounted surround speakers. Those will be a waste IMO as they'll be in the wrong place and you don't have the space behind the second row for them to work properly. That's also why I don't think 5.2.4 will work because the second pair of atmos speakers needs to be behind the LP too.(kind of an answer to your question to jbrax too) so I'm saying eliminate the rear surrounds and only use 2 ceiling speakers, and maybe a pair of "side surrounds" for each row. The answer to if there's an advantage in going 5.2.2 is, yes. Rear surrounds ala 7.x or 7.2.x won't work properly. 
Any dipoles I like? Well lol, I don't like bipole/dipole speakers in general, but due to the room size and since you need the front row it makes sense. My tiny little brain can't figure out how to get the best performance with the obstacles here. 


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## Zakk (Jan 6, 2017)

JBrax said:


> Rear speakers (ceiling or back) would just muddy the sound due to space constraints. Dipoles might be best although some recommend against using them. I use them (Klipsch rs-42 II's) and they work fine in my room.


So, just to be clear, you would recommend no rear speakers at all? Meaning no rear surround and no rear row of Atmos height effect or do you just mean no 2nd row of Atmos?


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Zakk said:


> JBrax said:
> 
> 
> > Rear speakers (ceiling or back) would just muddy the sound due to space constraints. Dipoles might be best although some recommend against using them. I use them (Klipsch rs-42 II's) and they work fine in my room.
> ...


 Specifically, I would not consider putting back surround speakers on the rear wall. They would be too close to those sitting on the rear row. I would put two side surrounds on the side walls. As far as ceiling speakers ideally you want four but due to the size of the room I'm not sure it's feasible? You need spacing for the sounds to properly pan. I'm not saying you can't make it work but probably not ideal? Maybe others will come forward and validate or contradict my thoughts on those top speakers.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Interesting thread.

I'm going to throw in agreement that an ideal arrangement wouldn't have the second row up against the back wall. However, part of this hobby is trial and error...and you may find that you're perfectly happy with the result given the seating you're looking to get in the room.

In terms of speakers... if you like the polks, run with it. The best option would be to ditch the center channel and fit another tower under your screen (if you can)... then I'd use the dipole speakers for both surrounds and rear channels. I'd also probably move your overhead / presence channels back just a tad. It sounds like you want to optimize for the second row (?) and you want to make sure that the first line of front atoms channels isn't too far forward.

Your situation is a great example of the real world clashing with ideals...and a lot of the end result is going to come from you installing and tweaking. My only hard and fast advice is: expect to tweak and make changes. I think it's all too easy to have a set-in-stone plan that gets to completion despite hazard signs. 

Good luck and keep us updated!


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## Zakk (Jan 6, 2017)

Thank all of you so much for all of your valuable input. I have decided that I will take a little extra time to be able to thoroughly test the height speakers with infinite adjustments easily made. Here is my plan... I will mount two 2x4 "rails" to the ceiling with 3" spacers and then lay two more 2x4 mounting "beams" perpendicular to the "rails" and loosely strapped together in the middle so they can slide. Each "beam" will have a speaker mounted to it in such a way that they are even with one another and the beams can slide in/out past one another and front/back along the rail so every position in the room can be tested without drilling a million holes in the ceiling (just 4 holes). 

For reference here is a diagram from a bottom view.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Zakk, good plan to figure out the positioning.

You have to work with your own goals and constraints in mind, and as much as you can try to implement the advice on how to do it the right way, sometimes the right way has to be compromised to get a result that works for you. My space won't be much bigger than yours, and I know my back row will have issues with rear surrounds being too close. But since I'm probably optimizing for the front row, the "kid seats" will be OK like that.

I know you've mentioned a lot of speakers that you already have, but have you considered going with in-walls to gain a few more precious inches of distance? My plan is to wire for and set up 7.2.4, and if I do find that the rear surrounds cause too much of a problem, I can just disconnect them. Yes, it could be a wasted investment, but I'd rather suck it up and go that route while the walls are open than to wish I had once everything is sealed and painted.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Zakk said:


> Thank all of you so much for all of your valuable input. I have decided that I will take a little extra time to be able to thoroughly test the height speakers with infinite adjustments easily made. Here is my plan... I will mount two 2x4 "rails" to the ceiling with 3" spacers and then lay two more 2x4 mounting "beams" perpendicular to the "rails" and loosely strapped together in the middle so they can slide. Each "beam" will have a speaker mounted to it in such a way that they are even with one another and the beams can slide in/out past one another and front/back along the rail so every position in the room can be tested without drilling a million holes in the ceiling (just 4 holes).
> 
> 
> 
> For reference here is a diagram from a bottom view.




This is a cool idea!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Zakk said:


> Thank all of you so much for all of your valuable input. I have decided that I will take a little extra time to be able to thoroughly test the height speakers with infinite adjustments easily made. Here is my plan... I will mount two 2x4 "rails" to the ceiling with 3" spacers and then lay two more 2x4 mounting "beams" perpendicular to the "rails" and loosely strapped together in the middle so they can slide. Each "beam" will have a speaker mounted to it in such a way that they are even with one another and the beams can slide in/out past one another and front/back along the rail so every position in the room can be tested without drilling a million holes in the ceiling (just 4 holes).





willis7469 said:


> This is a cool idea!


Cool enough to be a sticky, I say!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lumen said:


> Cool enough to be a sticky, I say!




Agreed! Could probably sell a few of those in a kit.


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## Zakk (Jan 6, 2017)

Since so many of you were kind enough to take your time and weigh in, and I have ALMOST completed the theater, I wanted to post an update. The theater is built, wired, and we have now watched a few movies in it. I have not completed the sound deadening or all of the digital tweaking, but the preliminary results are rather surprising.

I decided to stick with the 7.2.4 configuration. Contrary to popular opinions, the bass is awesome in both rows of seats. By "awesome", I mean a truly sick level of bass, to the point where I actually think I might like it better with just one sub on. The dialogue is crisp and present. Surround actually works pretty well. The only audio deficiency (aside of excessive audio reflection from lack of sound absorption) is with the ATMOS presence speakers. I am trying to see if I can get away with not mounting them on the ceiling because I don't want to run wires through the attic (or have wires show). They still work, but the sound is a bit too localized. I will experiment with angles, volume and delay, but I predict that I will ultimately have to move the presence speakers to the ceiling.

As soon as I finish the room, I will start a new thread with photos of the full build.


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## david yurik (Feb 17, 2013)

I wonder how the presence would sound by moving the speakers to the corners like this?? I would think above your head would be preferred but not having actual experience I can not say. Looking forward to the build thread.

Dave


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## thx15cool1 (Aug 23, 2017)

Zakk said:


> Since so many of you were kind enough to take your time and weigh in, and I have ALMOST completed the theater, I wanted to post an update. The theater is built, wired, and we have now watched a few movies in it. I have not completed the sound deadening or all of the digital tweaking, but the preliminary results are rather surprising.
> 
> I decided to stick with the 7.2.4 configuration. Contrary to popular opinions, the bass is awesome in both rows of seats. By "awesome", I mean a truly sick level of bass, to the point where I actually think I might like it better with just one sub on. The dialogue is crisp and present. Surround actually works pretty well. The only audio deficiency (aside of excessive audio reflection from lack of sound absorption) is with the ATMOS presence speakers. I am trying to see if I can get away with not mounting them on the ceiling because I don't want to run wires through the attic (or have wires show). They still work, but the sound is a bit too localized. I will experiment with angles, volume and delay, but I predict that I will ultimately have to move the presence speakers to the ceiling.
> 
> As soon as I finish the room, I will start a new thread with photos of the full build.



I have a almost similar room (10.5 X 13). I want to setup 7.2.4. Can you please share the equipment and plan of your setup. it would help me in setting mine. Thanks in Advance.


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