# AVR as pre/pro



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Hello,
I need some advice and I know of no better place than the Shack. Here is my situation, I have an Onkyo TX-SR702 (no HDMI) I'm using it to power center and side surrounds and L&R preouts to stereo amp for driving mains. I have a Toshiba HD-A3 that I use to upconvert standard DVD and digital optical for 5.1 audio, not the last word in sound quality but acceptable. I awaiting the arrival of a PS3 slim that can do bitstream or PCM. I will have to use the optical out of PS3, I realize that this cable does not have the bandwidth to handle True HD or Master Audio, my question is how much of a difference using the optical vrs. HDMI, I'm assuming that this could be substantial. I've been researching new AVR's with HDMI and higher resolution audio codecs and am leaning towards the new Pioneer K series but the only model that has preouts is 1120 which is more than I'm willing to spend and it won't be released till June or later. Basically I'm looking for a receiver with HDMI capability, True HD and Master audio with preouts so I can use the stereo amp and also the amp sections of the SR-702 which I really like. I'm also open to a receiver that has a decent amp section that would drive the center and surrounds and replace the 702 all together. I do a lot of two channel listening also with CD player and turntable with outboard phono stage. I also plan on purchasing a stand alond BD player in the near furture. Guys I have not made a receiver purchase in years and I am confused as to what direction to pursue or what models and makes to consider. I hope you can make heads or tails of what I'm asking here, I'm finding it difficult and I'm the one asking. Thank you for the time, I look forward to your replies and offer my gratitude.
Best regards, Jeff


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Hi bundini, why not stick with what you know and if you like the Onkyo sound then why not stick with them, and a new 807 would probably sort out your needs and more and has pre outs to add power amps when you feel the need to upgrade, the new Onkyo's have nearly every processing mode known to man and just seems to be the natural upgrade path for you!

Have look at the *Home Theatre Shack*  *Electronics store*  to see if there is something that you would like, at great prices too


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
We are also on the precipice of a new HDMI Spec, HDMI 1.4. In the next few Months, most AVR Manufacturers are going to be releasing HDMI 1.4 AVR's so you might want to wait. Especially, if 3D is of high importance to you and or you are planning to purchase a new HDTV in the next few Months.

If not, there are going to be great deals on current HDMI 1.3 AVR's. And speaking for myself only, I have no immediate plans to upgrading to 1.4 in the near future. Until 3D does not require Glasses, I am simply not interested. There are other upgrades to 1.4, but nothing that is making me want to sell off my current HT.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

The benefits of HD sounds are vastly overstated and most folks can't tell the difference between Dolby Digital 5.1 and Dolby True HD according to double blind tests that I've reviewed. Now it's much easier to deal with one cable than with 4, but you're already setup. I say stay put. I regretted the 500 dollars I blew on upgrading to HDMI. Technology always improves so be patient and content with what you have.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The only Article I read about the differences between DD and True HD and DTS-HD was in Home Entertainment Magazine where they went to Dolby's HQ and maybe DTS as well. It has been a while since I read that article. I must admit it looked like a pretty professionally setup test with top notch Components. After rereading the Article, they found DD and True HD hard to distinguish when played on Blu Ray, but when listening to DD from a DVD Player they were able to discern the difference between the codecs. When a DD track is played on a BD, it is far less compressed than on DVD. (640 kbps versus 448 kbps)

Regardless, on my system, I have experienced better SQ with the lossless codecs. While not as groundbreaking as the difference between Pro Logic and Dolby Digital and DTS, it is still an improvement.
And it is indeed nice to use 1 Cable where once over 10 Cables were needed (6 RCA's for multichannel SACD/DD/DVD-A/DTS, 3 Component Cables, and 1 Coaxial or Optical Cable.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

lsiberian said:


> The benefits of HD sounds are vastly overstated and most folks can't tell the difference between Dolby Digital 5.1 and Dolby True HD according to double blind tests that I've reviewed. Now it's much easier to deal with one cable than with 4, but you're already setup. I say stay put. I regretted the 500 dollars I blew on upgrading to HDMI. Technology always improves so be patient and content with what you have.


Thanks Isiberian, these are my thoughts also, I had a PS3 on loan from my nephew using the optical out and must say I was very much impressed with BD compared to standard DVD with same setup. I will take your advice and be patient, I really am pleased with my current setup but always feel that I'm missing something, in reality I'm not. I do a lot of stereo listening and seem to do a lot less of the HT thing as of late. At this point I would rather wait and see what developes in the future. Again thanks for the sound advice.
Jeff


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> The only Article I read about the differences between DD and True HD and DTS-HD was in Home Entertainment Magazine where they went to Dolby's HQ and maybe DTS as well. It has been a while since I read that article. I must admit it looked like a pretty professionally setup test with top notch Components. After rereading the Article, they found DD and True HD hard to distinguish when played on Blu Ray, but when listening to DD from a DVD Player they were able to discern the difference between the codecs. When a DD track is played on a BD, it is far less compressed than on DVD. (640 kbps versus 448 kbps)
> 
> Regardless, on my system, I have experienced better SQ with the lossless codecs. While not as groundbreaking as the difference between Pro Logic and Dolby Digital and DTS, it is still an improvement.
> ...



Thanks JJ for your input, I read the same article in HEM. When I do get the stand alone BD player I'll make sure it has MCH outs as I don't mind using six cables as I make my own. I may just stay with the PS3 with optical out. I can think of other ways to spend that money ie. saving for new loudspeakers. Thanks again for your helpful insight, you guys are the best.
Jeff


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Jeff, if your Speakers are in need of upgrade, I could not agree more. Speakers are by far the most important Component to great sound in tandem with the acoustics of the Room itself.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I have not seen any 3D tv's in action yet but are the new glasses supplied really that bad, I was speaking to a dealership today and they said that Both Sony's and Samsung's are really very good with Sony having the edge?


----------



## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

needspeed52 said:


> Thanks Isiberian, these are my thoughts also, I had a PS3 on loan from my nephew using the optical out...


Keep in mind, if you're using optical out, you're not getting Dolby TrueHD.

I have yet to do a side by side between a standard DVD and TrueHD (I've heard soundtracks in both versions and on the same system, just not side by side), but everything I've heard in TrueHD sounds phenomenal. If I had to put a point on it, I'd say "more life-like".


----------



## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

recruit said:


> I have not seen any 3D tv's in action yet but are the new glasses supplied really that bad, I was speaking to a dealership today and they said that Both Sony's and Samsung's are really very good with Sony having the edge?


I think the glasses are as good as they'll get this year. I tried the Samsungs and my big complaint is that, due to either a poor sync or the lenses not going completely dark, I saw far more of a shadow than I did in the theater (shadow being my term for the ghost of the image resulting from the left image leaking into the right eye and vice versa). Coupled with the extreme lack of content and high price of entry, and I'd say we are still 5 years away from any mass adoption. I would recommend it anytime soon unless you have money to burn.


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Thanks Marshall


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Jeff, if your Speakers are in need of upgrade, I could not agree more. Speakers are by far the most important Component to great sound in tandem with the acoustics of the Room itself.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I second that JJ, I never considered the room to be a critical component in the audio chain until I did much research and experimentation with both speaker placement and room furnishings. Adding drapes, carpeting and furniture positions, seating positions, reflective glass surfaces and objects between and within line of sight of speaker dispersion patterns, side wall, back wall, floor and ceiling, it's a lot of work and time that is well rewarded. I'm moving my entertainment center to a side wall and wall mounting my TV and have moved my speakers out and into the room to breathe, it feels like I spent $500-$1000 more on my speakers, I'm actually listening to my speakers and not my room, very minor outlay of cash, mostly time and energy. My mains are surely not considered high end by any means, Athena F2's but I'm getting all that is available from these and will suffice until I can afford to audition and purchase something that I feel is substantially better. With the room setup and speaker placement I feel as though I did get new speakers. Thanks to you and Isiberian I am now able to put a little more in the till for that future upgrade. Almost forgot to mention about receivers, the original query for this thread, I went to Pioneer's website last night and enrolled in their email news letter and today I got an email from Pioneer Electronics with a promotional code for the VSX-9140TXH receiver for $674.00 delivered, I searched around and saw it from ID sites for $999.00. So what are your thoughts? The deal is good only till the end of March, two more days. I'd appreciate any comments. Thanks again for your time.
Jeff


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Jeff,
I would go with this B-Stock Onkyo:http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...ra2-130w-X-7ch-Hdmi-806-Receiver-Black/1.html

Originally 1100 Dollars and available for 549. Included THX Ultra 2 Plus, Audyssey MultEQ, and more.
I personally prefer Audyssey over Pioneer's MCACC for Speaker EQ and the Onkyo is available at a great price.

Accessories4less also has the TX-NR1007 available for 899:http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...Certified-9.2-Channel-Network-Receiver/1.html which is also a great deal if your budget can accommodate this. The 1007 is a 9.2 AVR and also includes Audyssey's more powerful MultEQ XT Processing.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

eugovector said:


> Keep in mind, if you're using optical out, you're not getting Dolby TrueHD.
> 
> I have yet to do a side by side between a standard DVD and TrueHD (I've heard soundtracks in both versions and on the same system, just not side by side), but everything I've heard in TrueHD sounds phenomenal. If I had to put a point on it, I'd say "more life-like".


You gotta check out some of the LPCM 7.1 tracks for a real treat. Still generally the Hd tracks are simply louder than the DD tracks. Sound quality is more a combination of the Master quality and speakers than the format. You'll find LPCM 7.1 tracks to have fantastic mastering. My favorite track is still the Dark Night though. It's my reference movie of choice for Video and Audio.


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Jungle Jack said:


> Jeff,
> I would go with this B-Stock Onkyo:http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...ra2-130w-X-7ch-Hdmi-806-Receiver-Black/1.html
> 
> Originally 1100 Dollars and available for 549. Included THX Ultra 2 Plus, Audyssey MultEQ, and more.
> ...



Thanks again my friend, I really value your opinion and your willingness to share your honest feedback and recommendatioins, again greatly appreciated, I will look at your suggestions with the Onkyo. What is B stock and should I be leary of this type of purchase?
Best regards....Jeff


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Jeff,
B-Stock in this case means remanufactured. I have honestly helped dozens of friends and family members build HT's around B-Stock Onkyo with not a single issue. Everyone I have setup looks absolutely brand new and AC4L is an Authorized Dealer so the Factory Warranty applies.

If reticent to purchase B-Stock, Newegg offers some great deals as well. However, it will be a couple hundred more. And sorry it took so long to reply. I have been swamped of late and somehow missed your Post.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Jungle Jack said:


> Jeff,
> B-Stock in this case means remanufactured. I have honestly helped dozens of friends and family members build HT's around B-Stock Onkyo with not a single issue. Everyone I have setup looks absolutely brand new and AC4L is an Authorized Dealer so the Factory Warranty applies.
> 
> If reticent to purchase B-Stock, Newegg offers some great deals as well. However, it will be a couple hundred more. And sorry it took so long to reply. I have been swamped of late and somehow missed your Post.
> ...


JJ, no need to apologize, I believe you are a man of integrity and there is a lot of credibility in what you have to say, and I respect that. I found out what B-stock was after some searching and Onkyo does the remanufacturing at their factory with one year warranty. Actually AC4L is Onkyos' outlet store. I am not reticent to purchase B-stock especially Onkyo, I am a Onkyo owner and my unit has performed flawlessly for five years and still looks like the day I bought it, so I guess that answers my own question, I would not hesitate to buy Onkyo again especially at the prices AC4L offers. I thank you again for your sound advice and now have a more direct path with which to pursue. Hopefully in the near future we can discuss loudspeakers, right now one step at a time. Thanks much my friend.
Jeff


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
We are here for you for anything you might wish to discuss. With AC4L dropping the price of the 1007 recently, I must say it is awfully tempting. Especially if planning on using dual Subwoofers as the 1007 has independent Audyssey Calibration for each Subwoofer.

I wish the TX-SR876 was still available there. I really think it hit the sweet spot with loads of power, Reon Video Processing (which is only available on the 3007 and 5007), MultEQ XT, THX Ultra2 Plus and more for around 850 Dollars. However, if using primarily HD Sources, the 1007's lack of Reon will not be an issue.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> We are here for you for anything you might wish to discuss. With AC4L dropping the price of the 1007 recently, I must say it is awfully tempting. Especially if planning on using dual Subwoofers as the 1007 has independent Audyssey Calibration for each Subwoofer.
> 
> I wish the TX-SR876 was still available there. I really think it hit the sweet spot with loads of power, Reon Video Processing (which is only available on the 3007 and 5007), MultEQ XT, THX Ultra2 Plus and more for around 850 Dollars. However, if using primarily HD Sources, the 1007's lack of Reon will not be an issue.
> ...



I will be using all HD sources, so not concerned with REON. I really like the 1007 and 806 and even the 707, I have a stereo amp to drive the mains and plan on purchasing additional outboard amplification for additional channels. My basic needs are preouts and HDMI with decoding of the high resolution audio codecs. They have a nice deal on NR 807 also. I do a lot of two channel listening, I have a nice Sota Sapphire Series III table with rebadged Jelco SA250ST arm, Denon DL-160 cart and Music Hall phono stage, so what I'm looking for is a AVR as pre/pro. Like I said I like the 707, 1007, 806 and NR807. I have the new PS3 slim and plan on getting the Oppo BD-83. So JJ if you were me what would you get?
Jeff


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Jeff, if Internet Radio is important to you, the 807 and 1007 both feature it. If you are not planning on adding outboard amplification quickly, I would go with the 1007. If you are going to get more amplification quickly, the 707 would be the most cost effective though you would lose Audyssey's MultEQ XT and instead have MultEQ. XT has a good bit more processing power.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Jeff, if Internet Radio is important to you, the 807 and 1007 both feature it. If you are not planning on adding outboard amplification quickly, I would go with the 1007. If you are going to get more amplification quickly, the 707 would be the most cost effective though you would lose Audyssey's MultEQ XT and instead have MultEQ. XT has a good bit more processing power.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Thanks JJ, I believe I have all the info I need to make a very informative decision based on my needs and expectations. I thank you for the education and sharing your experience with the various Onkyo products.
Jeff


----------



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

lsiberian said:


> The benefits of HD sounds are vastly overstated and most folks can't tell the difference between Dolby Digital 5.1 and Dolby True HD.


I completely agree; I have felt, since I've been able to bitstream the TrueHD/Master Audio codecs over to an HDMI 1.3 receiver, that the new surround formats are extremely overrated. The jump in quality isn't as dramatic in the audio as it was, with, say, the video from DVD to 1080p Blu-ray/HD-DVD...and even that's debatable on certain transfers.


----------



## Dunedain (Apr 12, 2010)

I wouldn't worry so much about HDMI, it's not that big of a deal, the only reason they even came up with HDMI was for copy protection (component video cables can handle 1080p video with no problem). You already get better DD 5.1 sound over a standard coaxial cable to your receiver from a Blu-Ray disk that you do with a DVD disk. Because you can have the full audio bit-rate that Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound has always supported when watching a movie on a Blu-Ray disk (it was limited to 448k on DVD, but you get the full 640k DD 5.1 with Blu-Ray).


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Dunedain said:


> I wouldn't worry so much about HDMI, it's not that big of a deal, the only reason they even came up with HDMI was for copy protection (component video cables can handle 1080p video with no problem). You already get better DD 5.1 sound over a standard coaxial cable to your receiver from a Blu-Ray disk that you do with a DVD disk. Because you can have the full audio bit-rate that Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound has always supported when watching a movie on a Blu-Ray disk (it was limited to 448k on DVD, but you get the full 640k DD 5.1 with Blu-Ray).


Hello,
Unfortunately, after December 31 of this year, Blu Rays Players built after this date will no longer output a resolution higher than 480 lines over Component Cables. Even worse, on a disc to disc basis, some Blu Ray Discs will not allow output higher than 480 lines via Component with current and BDP's built before this deadline.

This is leading up to December 31. 2013 when BDP's will no longer have any Analog Outputs whatsoever. This is all part of the HDMI Final Adopter Agreement aka "The Analog Sunset".
Sadly, it really makes HDMI practically compulsory for the highest resolution. This is also a ticking bomb for all of the Custom Installers many of whom have avoided HDMI due to handshake issues and performance issues with long distances.
Here is a good writeup:http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/aacs-hdmi-kill-component-2010
And another:http://arstechnica.com/media/news/2...-presses-on-with-plan-to-plug-analog-hole.ars
One more:http://www.ultimateavmag.com/news/no_more_analog_high_def_from_blu-ray/
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Dunedain (Apr 12, 2010)

Yeah, this is similar to the video flag that movie studios agreed (on an informal basis) to generally not use until later on with their movies on Blu-Ray disk so that you can't output high res images without HDMI. Another good reason to buy a Blu-Ray player that doesn't have this restriction now. Then you can ignore it for awhile.


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

So guys what to I do, stay with optical out for audio and separate HDMI for video? Buy a new HDMI compatible receiver or in addition to my PS3 slim add a new BD player with 5.1 or 7.1 analog outs to my existing Onkyo SR 702 which have the 7.1 inputs. Very confusing. I'm still leaning JJ to your recommendation of the Onkyo NR-1007. 
Thanks Jeff


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
What I really like about Onkyo's current AVR's like the 1007 is the inclusion of Audyssey MultEQ XT. This really can help bring about the best sound in ones HT.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Dunedain said:


> component video cables can handle 1080p video with no problem.


Component is limited to 1080i 



Osage_Winter said:


> I completely agree; I have felt, since I've been able to bitstream the TrueHD/Master Audio codecs over to an HDMI 1.3 receiver, that the new surround formats are extremely overrated. The jump in quality isn't as dramatic in the audio as it was, with, say, the video from DVD to 1080p Blu-ray/HD-DVD...and even that's debatable on certain transfers.


This depends on the movie, New action movies sound far better than they did with DD or even DTS It really depends on your system setup if your speakers and amps are up to the task the uncompressed formats do offer allot more dynamics.



needspeed52 said:


> So guys what to I do, stay with optical out for audio and separate HDMI for video? Buy a new HDMI compatible receiver or in addition to my PS3 slim add a new BD player with 5.1 or 7.1 analog outs to my existing Onkyo SR 702 which have the 7.1 inputs. Very confusing. I'm still leaning JJ to your recommendation of the Onkyo NR-1007.
> Thanks Jeff


I think you will find that upgrading your receiver would give you allot of improvement due to auto room correction, better DACs and better features.


----------



## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

The 1080i limit on component cables is an artificial limitation of copyrighted material. The cables themselves can carry 1080p, sources such as video games can display at 1080p. It's only movies that are limited by the player manufacturers to 1080i over component (and will soon be further limited to 480p).


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Thanks guys, I will be purchasing the Onkyo 1007 and be done with it. Then looking to upgrade loudspeakers. I have several to consider and will be throwing these suggestions out to you for advice. Thanks again for all your feedback.
Most sincerely, Jeff


----------



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> This depends on the movie, New action movies sound far better than they did with DD or even DTS It really depends on your system setup if your speakers and amps are up to the task the uncompressed formats do offer allot more dynamics.


I will continue to wholeheartedly and respectfully disagree; I have done multiple, almost bordering on daunting, A/B comparo's between lossy and lossless tracks of the same film -- and even went as far as to compare the lossy tracks on the DVDs vs. some lossy tracks that are available on the Blu-ray counterparts (such as with the "Pirates" films) -- and I don't hear a great deal of sonic improvement, if any.

Another thing I noticed that bothered me, and which has been confirmed by some sources, is that DTS Master Audio tracks on some titles don't sound any more dynamic or aggressive than their core DTS streams from the same disc -- my first BD player was a Panasonic DMP-BD10A which did not pass Master Audio natively nor did it decode it internally. The player stripped the core DTS signal from an MA title and played the core track back at the increased data rate. Those tracks sounded pretty neat. Now, when I got my Oppo BDP-83 player and was able to access full lossless bitstreamed Master Audio surround tracks, I didn't hear any difference between the core signal and the lossless extension version.


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I agree with Tony and there are differences to be had and I noticed this more when moving up the chain to more high end gear, especially with power amps and the extra dynamics that can be had from listening to the new HD codecs.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I think John brings up an excellent point about having high resolution Speakers and high powered Amplifiers to get the most out of the lossless codecs.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Well, then, perhaps the difference lies in stepping up to gear beyond the realm of that which my Onkyo 605 sits in; my first upgrade was speakers, in which I went from Polk R20 bookshelves to Polk RTi12's for mains, which were the company's flagship model of the RTi line previously. While this yielded some improvement in dynamics and soundstage coherency, I still do not sense drastic, Earth-shaking differences between lossy surround tracks encoded in Dolby Digital or DTS and those in the lossless varities of TrueHD and Master Audio. 

Even previous _Home Theater_ Magazine video editor Geoffrey Morrison made the same observation about the new codecs when some of them first appeared on HD-DVD discs; he claimed that the jump from the lossless audio from the lossy variants, while welcomed, was not nearly as dynamically visceral or outstanding as the jump from, say, the video differences in high def from standard. 

I recently read an article by Geoffrey which he wrote in the magazine he is now editor in chief for and he still stands by that sentiment.

BTW, I noticed the reference to "HIGH RESOLUTION SPEAKERS" from the previous member's post; what exactly are "high resolution speakers"? Do we actually need these to experience the new surround codecs? Because if so, I bought the wrong ones by going with the Polk RTi12's...


----------



## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

I can attest to the need for speaker with a very good dynamic range. I had to switch from Magnepans to DIY compression horn speakers to get the most of the lossless formats.  Even my center channel speaker which are DIY Mark Audio's are going to have to be switched out with a new DIY center. 

Matt


----------



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Okay, speakers with "good dynamic range" is something else; but what I don't understand and probably never will is why companies like Onkyo and Polk make products that are in the somewhat "affordable" category for "enjoying" and "experiencing" the new surround codecs, but they're still not what's needed to TRULY experience these formats -- case in point: My 605 receiver. This decodes TrueHD and Master Audio, yet it doesn't fully extract the sonic benefits of the new codecs due to its probably inferior parts and D/A converters, present in more expensive AVRs and processors.

Are we to believe that the only people able to access the sonic improvements made by the lossless surround formats are those such as the member that posted above me just before who creates DIY speakers and elements? Otherwise, we need to buy the likes of Loimanchay Speakers, which cost upwards of $150K per pair in the U.S.?


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

It's OK if you feel that there is not much improvement from the normal vanilla DD & DTS, I have heard people mention this many times but that can be down to a number of things, setup/kit and the room being the most important part, trust me there is a difference between higher resolution and lossless formats and I have been enjoying them for years via DVD-A and SACD and now thankfully Dolby True HD and DTS HD MA are giving an even better movie viewing experience


----------



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm in a pretty nice-sized room with little to no reflective problems (based on resonance tests) and I have what I consider to be (and some others have agreed) a bit above "the basics" needed for good surround experiences in terms of gear; still, I don't hear a "night and day" improvement over the lossy codecs we've been used to via DVD. Of course, with multi-million-dollar setups, the evidence would probably be more than overwhelming, but that's not what most enthusiasts are running. I cannot believe, to this day, that you need to invest in $200K speakers in order to hear distinct differences between the formats/codecs. 

I'm still trying to figure out what "High Resolution speakers" are though...


----------

