# Linkwitz ORION



## Ayreonaut

A few of you may remember that I used to daydream about building the Linkwitz ORION system someday. 

Well, my opportunity is near. I visited Don Barringer last weekend who was kind enough to demo his ORION system for me. I wanted to make sure that all the high praise was true before I committed.

I think I might have ordered the plans today...:T


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## Mario

Wow, this is like the ultimate DIY speakers project. Personally I would build Plutos first, to hone my skills and to see if those kind of speakers are for me without spending a fortune. Are you going to build everything yourself? I have to say those cabinets really intimidate me. I wouldn't know where to begin. Active crossovers are also not exactly a piece of cake, although I'm more capable with a soldering iron than a circular saw. Best of luck to you and please keep us updated on your progress. I may decide to retrace your steps one day.:wave:


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## JCD

I can't WAIT till you've started/finished this project.

So, which flavor did you go with? I.e., are you going to do the crossover project yourself? or will you have someone else do it? Are you going to buy the boards pre-cut, or did you just buy the plans?

And pictures NEED to come fast and furious!! addle:


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## Ayreonaut

I certainly wanted to find out if these speakers were "for me" before I spent a few $K on them. If you've read the reviews of this system you know what others are saying about it. _It's all true._ 

The sound stage is 3D. It makes box speakers sound 2D by comparison. Good stereo recordings (I listened to Chesky 2K) extend behind the speakers to far beyond the back wall. When playing good recordings, the speakers disappear. You can stare at the exposed drivers and you can't convince yourself that you hear _anything_ coming from the drivers. These speakers can thump. I expected dipole bass to be a little wimpy, but it is not. Of course the tone is completely natural.

Most recordings today including surround sound are "pan-potted mono". It is immediately evident when a recording of this type is played that the sound stage has collapsed into a plane. It's like someone took your 3D glasses off. I would say that for these types of recordings, my existing box speakers (DALI IKON 6) will do fine. 

But for 3D stereo recordings, only the ORION system will do.


> Personally I would build Plutos first, to hone my skills and to see if those kind of speakers are for me without spending a fortune.


The thought of building the PLUTO crossed my mind, but $1800 is an expensive experiment/training exercise.


> So, which flavor did you go with? I.e., are you going to do the crossover project yourself? or will you have someone else do it? Are you going to buy the boards pre-cut, or did you just buy the plans?


I'll buy the crossover assembled and tested. I wouldn't mind soldering the board, and I've done that kind of thing before, but troubleshooting it would be beyond my ability and would not be my idea of a good time. I'd rather pay the $240 difference for the working crossover.

But I'll definitely build the speaker cabinets either by myself or with the help of a woodworking friend.


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## Mario

I don't think it's $1800 for a pair of Plutos. Here's a quote from the website:



> To estimate the total cost for a pair of PLUTO assume that the four drivers will be about $140. They are available, for example, from www.madisound.com . Electronic components are about $280 and available from www.digikey.com . The pipes, fittings, wood and miscellaneous hardware for the enclosures are around $60 and should all be available at your local hardware store. Thus the total cost could range between $480, if you need nothing more than the information on this website, have time, experience and patience, and around $1000 when you start with the PLUTO Construction Plans, two Electronics Modules and a Test CD.


Orions would be a tad more expensive. Two assembled crossovers are $1500, drivers are $1800. Multichannel amplifiers would also cost a pretty penny. All in all I'd say Orions are a pretty big step up from Plutos in terms of cost and complexity. Of course if you auditioned and liked them and have the money/skills to build them then going straight for the jackpot makes sense. A poor, timid schmuk like me would be better off reaching for the low hanging fruit first.


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## Anthony

I am very jealous!  

I have lusted over the Orions for some time, but could never justify the expense. Definitely keep us posted on your progress.


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## Ayreonaut

For the moment, I'm just waiting for the plans to arrive in the mail. 

I'll be pulling together the funds over the next six months, so we'll have to practice patience together!

If I do start buying supplies, I don't know what to get first. 
Maybe I'll start by upgrading my receiver and buy the amps.
Maybe I'll start by building the cabinet.


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## Anthony

I've been doing my OB center channel build for 2 years now, so I know patience (and distractions) 

Good luck.


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## filtor1

Can someone post a link to the Orion's. I am not familiar with them. Thanks.


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## darrellh44

www.linkwitzlab.com


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## ngiachino

I built a set of Orion's a few years back. The crossover soldering is tedious, but definately not difficult. Cabinet construction was also pretty easy especially if you use the templates he provides.

To this day, they are still my favorite speakers. I sold them to help fund a wedding ring, but it's only a matter of time before I build another set.

My only gripe with them at the time was all the amplification they needed. I used two Parasound 855a (or was it 885a...can't remember) which was cheaper than going the ATI route...but for someone who puts way to much consideration into amplifier specs, design, and regrettably, marketing...it was limiting to need 8 channels.

Good luck with your project, if you have a nice big room to put them in to keep away from the back/side walls, I can nearly promise you'll be very happy with your decision.


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## Ayreonaut

Thanks for the encouragement.

At the moment I am considering the Rotel RMB-1048 amplifier for $800 (MSRP). It's 8 channels of 40 watts into 8 ohms. From what I've read on the Orion Users Group, this amp woofers will hit their physical limit before this amp clips, so its got enough power for the job.

I have a big room, but I'm going to need luck convincing the Mrs. to let me rearrange the furniture!

By the way, I got an e-mail from SL letting me know that my plans have shipped. I'm looking for that package!


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## 1Michael

I find that its a good practice to buy the drivers first since the manufacturers like to discontinue or change things, then I start building the box...


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## Ayreonaut

In a couple of weeks I'll have the funds to buy the drivers and cabinet materials, and then I'll pull the trigger on those. :spend:

The crossover and amp will probably have to wait until January. :waiting:


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## filtor1

Those look very cool! I look forward to seeing these come to life!


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## sfdoddsy

I've had my modified Orions for over six years and have never been tempted by anything else.

You'll love them.

www.doddsy.net/steve6_009.htm


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## Ayreonaut

Well folks, after MUCH discussion with my wife, I've decided to wait on the ORION. It just won't work in our living room. Maybe in a year or two we'll buy a new house and my #1 priority is a home theater room of my own.

In the mean time, I've got this money burning a hole in my pocket so I'm going to upgrade my TV. I'm pretty settled on a KURO...


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## dnaples

As dipoles, the Orion speakers do need to be positioned four feet from the back wall and two feet from the side wall when doing any critical listening. I have made many Orion speakers for people in many countries. During this experience, I have incorporated many changes (with Siegfried's approval) that improve upon the construction and the wire layout. I will be glad to share this information with those who have purchased the plans and are about to begin the building process. The plans show the construction using Birch Plywood, but most of the speakers I have made have used solid woods. The most popular of these have been Bubinga, Brazilian Cherry, American Cherry and Maple. I also have made the baffle panels from Quilted Maple with Ebony trim. The results are some beautiful speaker/furniture cabinets. This increases the WAF. I personally replaced a pair of rather expensive (unnamed) shiny black speakers that my wife thought looked like trash cans. She prefers the look of the Orion speakers as well as the improvement in sound quality. When you get ready to build these, please let me know if you would like some suggestions on the construction.
Don


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## choysanchez

Hello! I'm an Orion owner myself, and up to this day, completely enjoying it. I built mine myself slowly for over 6 months and now still enjoying the fruits of my labor. I have heard several high-end speaker demo before, including the cover of the September 2009 issue of a popular stereo magazine, but nothing comes close to the sound and performance of an Orion speaker, not even speakers that cost $68K (US brand) or $85K (Danish brand) or even $100K + (French brand) top-of-the-line speakers. Orion has made me enjoy this hobby even more! It would probably be my last speakers!

Sorry to hear that you can't do your Orion project as soon. Good luck on your new house plan and I hope soon you'll fulfill your Orion project. I assure you, when that day comes, you won't regret it! Good luck!

Or you can try the Pluto project. I've been wanting to start my Pluto project, to use it as surrounds to complete my Orion-Pluto home theater speaker system but work constraints are posing as hindrance to implement my project soon. I don't have a Pluto yet and have not heard them yet, but from the various review and the forum, all agreed that it is a smaller version of Orion. And also I believe on the genius of Mr. Siegfried Linkwitz, who provide us high-end enjoyment at a lesser and realistic cost.

Good luck on whatever decision you'll take. The important thing is you enjoy this hobby!

Cheers!


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## jimfrank

Man, I'd love to build a set of Orions. Too bad I'd have to build a house to fit them in, first...


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## dnaples

jimfrank said:


> Man, I'd love to build a set of Orions. Too bad I'd have to build a house to fit them in, first...


You could consider building the Pluto speakers. When switching back and forth between them and the Orion speakers, people have lost track of which ones were being played. Certainly at the lowest bass octave, the Orion speakers excel, but for near field listening in smaller rooms the Pluto speakers are worth consideration. My first listening to them surprised me in the instant disappearance of the speakers, leaving only the music. Like the Orion, they also have a very open sound. When looking at the Pluto speakers, remember the amplifiers are part of the design. This is a great DIY project. If you later have room for Orion, you can use the Pluto for another room or as surround speakers.


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## Yad

Guys, what do you think about "sound-tastes" of the orion speakers ? Jazz, rock etc. 
I'm asking 'cause i think they should have some limitations of the dynamic range at the lowest frequency end.


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## dnaples

Yad said:


> Guys, what do you think about "sound-tastes" of the orion speakers ? Jazz, rock etc.
> I'm asking 'cause i think they should have some limitations of the dynamic range at the lowest frequency end.


My listening tastes are primarily Classical and Jazz. I switched to the Orion speakers because I found the previous (a very popular and much more expensive speaker system) to be lacking specifically in the bass. Listening to the double bass on the Orion speakers sounds real. Here is a quote from another Orion owner.

"I belong to the San Diego Audio Club. At almost every meeting we listen to some speakers. Almost without exception they go thump, thump, thump because they are ported. Once one has had Orion's this type of bass is unacceptable. There is more bass, or at least more apparent bass from a ported speaker however. This customer may be used to ported speakers and misses the steady drone. Just a thought, if a rather obvious one." 

If one wants more bass output, the Thor subwoofers are designed to mate with the Orion speakers.

It does all come down to personal taste.


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## Yad

DonN, I'm sorry, I was not specific in my question . My question concerns classic-music bass: organ. It needs very high infra-LF output. I also talking about some Pink Floyd's lowest bass. 
I think the good idea is to increase the number of LO-drivers for double or even 8 times more. It will keep the frequency and transient response of the speaker but will make the LF-end really dynamically unlimited. 

Why do i think it's necessary? I saw the equalization curve of Orions. You loose more than 20 dB of the dynamic range at it's LF end


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## Drew Eckhardt

Yad said:


> Guys, what do you think about "sound-tastes" of the orion speakers ? Jazz, rock etc.
> I'm asking 'cause i think they should have some limitations of the dynamic range at the lowest frequency end.


I built my Orions in 2003 and currently have them setup in my living room.

They're completely neutral. While the Orions won't smooth out the distortions on bad recordings or roll off excessive high frequency energy they also don't do anything to exacerbate problems that are there.

They work great for most acoustic music at subjectively realistic levels including orchestral works and jazz horns with Siegfried noting that the tweeter shows no signs of distress at 20W peak from its amplifier. They work great for rock and electronic music at 90dBC average. Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon, Atom Heart Mother, etc. are fine. Percussion (Mickey Hart Planet Drum, the Rush Different Stages drum solo which does have some scary looking subsonics following a gong hit) and upright bass are especially natural sounding. They work great for home theater up to reference level when crossed over to a sub-woofer, like a 2nd order butterworth highpass at 40Hz + the 50Hz first order high-pass enabled. 

Running the speakers full-range, home theater sound tracks with silly sub-sonic energy will bottom the woofers when they're run full-range and larger amplifiers are used. Although one would expect the screen channels to lack subsonic content which would not be reproduced by theater speakers, the sound tracks get remixed for DVD with some (the Tom Cruise War of the Worlds remake being a notable offender) having significant content down to the single digits.

Given the excursion required through the last octave and subsonic territory this is not surprising. While you have the displacement for 109dB a side at xmax and 80Hz (midrange) and 100dB a side at xmax and 40Hz, the number drops to 82dB at 20Hz which allows for 88dB program material level (equalization to Q=.5, F=20Hz means they're 6dB down). Xmech gets you another 5dB (22mm vs 12.5mm) on the bass drivers.

Where you expect this sort of low bass, a LR4 cross-over to Thors at 50Hz (providing 6dB of headroom over a 40Hz cross-over point) is the recommended solution.

Where you don't, lower powered amplifiers are suggested so the system is more likely to clip the bass amps before bottoming. The recommended ATI 60W per channel amplifier will not drive the Orions to xmax above 20Hz; although excursion is still doubling with each octave below that until the Orions reach the 10" XLS lowest pole at 5? Hz.

I'd assume that organ music at realistic levels would be another place for the Thors.


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## Drew Eckhardt

dnaples said:


> You could consider building the Pluto speakers. When switching back and forth between them and the Orion speakers, people have lost track of which ones were being played.


The Plutos are very good. More coherent than any box speaker with conventional drivers and cross-over points. Low frequency output is limited, with the original Peerless drivers lacking the displacement to sound clean at moderate volumes when bass is present. The Seas drivers do audibly better although I think the number from displacement is 6dB. The Pluto+ option gets you reasonable headroom, although they don't go as loud as Orions.

Obviously bass does not suffer when you place them too close to the front wall as with a dipole.

The rest of the spectrum does surprisingly well in that installation compared to conventional designs, perhaps because the off-axis response is identical to the direct sound for so much of the spectrum so your brain ignores it as a reflection. You get some warmth, loose image depth, and image size is bigger.

I have Pluto+ in the bedroom


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## Yad

(sorry again, but am i right?) Plutos are looks like they were built from the "canalization pipes" (?)


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## Drew Eckhardt

Yad said:


> (sorry again, but am i right?) Plutos are looks like they were built from the "canalization pipes" (?)


The Plutos are built from ABS plumbing pipe, with the original design using a rubber coupler intended to mate with clay pipe mounting the mid-range.

Since there's no bending load in a cylindrical enclosure they don't suffer from panel resonances. The pipes are stuffed to form damped transmission lines, with the mid-bass having a measured 40dB return loss with just 1% of the back wave energy making it to the cone. The 1.6" tweeter is becoming directional as baffle step is occurring so diffraction is not an issue.

Apart from the aesthetics (I'm thinking about solid wood enclosures, starting with birdsmouth joints on the mid-bass turned down to cylindrical) you'd have a hard time building a better enclosure, and the simplicity can't be beat (there are no air-tight wood joints, and apart from making the legs the same length none of the wood measurements need to match).


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## Yad

ok ))) It was very curious for me to use pipes. I'll try some )


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## Drew Eckhardt

Yad said:


> ok ))) It was very curious for me to use pipes. I'll try some )


Siegfried Linkwitz documents how he arrived at the correct stuffing density in his Pluto web pages:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/construction.htm


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## Anthony

A friend of mine made his own version of the Plutos with good results. Neat concept. He did a transmission line in PVC pipe and the little tweeter eyeball thing. Sounded great and I think he did it all with leftovers from prior speaker projects. A good starter project if you are considering the Orions later.


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## jimfrank

I have to consider the WAF (wife acceptance factor) before planning to put new speakers in the living room. She who must be obeyed would find the Plutos unacceptably homely for anywhere guests might linger. 

I still dream of building a recording studio someday, with a listening area that has something like an Orion/Thor combination for monitoring...


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## Yad

WAF :rofl:


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## jimfrank

WAF is a powerful force in audiophilia circles... The Orions themselves are beautiful, and would pose little problem other than the room they require.


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## Yad

My wife, mostly, does share my sound and design tastes. Am i lucky? ))))) 

But I'm sure, she'll bit me, if I will install "Plutos"(with their native PVC-pipe design) in to my living-room ))))


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## Drew Eckhardt

Yad said:


> My wife, mostly, does share my sound and design tastes. Am i lucky? )))))
> 
> But I'm sure, she'll bit me, if I will install "Plutos"(with their native PVC-pipe design) in to my living-room ))))


I'm married.

My Pluto+ are in the bedroom. My wife likes them a lot but wants an equipment stand that looks as nice as the sub-woofers. Catering to the fairer sex is a romantic white canopy bed.

The Orions flank a love seat 5' off the front wall. We believe in good sound at home.

She's an engineer, diagnoses hardware problems like when one of the Plutos was receiving 94.9 FM, and at some point wants to build a radio as a joint project. Mercury vapor rectifiers and vacuum tubes should make their appearance there.


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## dnaples

The Pluto speakers can be made to look less like plastic pipes.
These are made in Maple. The black trim provides a nice contrast.
If you would like to hear the Pluto+ speakers, there are some owners who offer to demonstrate them in their homes. You can contact them through the 
ORION/PLUTO Users Group Forum.


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## Drew Eckhardt

dnaples said:


> The Pluto speakers can be made to look less like plastic pipes.
> These are made in Maple. The black trim provides a nice contrast.
> If you would like to hear the Pluto+ speakers, there are some owners who offer to demonstrate them in their homes. You can contact them through the
> ORION/PLUTO Users Group Forum.


Are those just veneer on the regular plastic pipes?


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## dnaples

Yes they are veneered tubes. It does add some challenges as the veneer makes the tubes larger in diameter, so you have to turn the inside of the mating caps to allow for the larger diameter. That is not hard. The more difficult part is to turn the inside of the 90 degree elbow. That was done with a fly cutter. The cross support tube between the woofer and tweeter tube is a turned hollow Maple dowel.


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## Yad

Hi everybody. Veneered Plutos are looking much better, than authentic plastic ))))))))))))) :clap:
But how did you veneer a plastic? What glue did you use ?


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## Anthony

I can't speak to what he used, but many 2 part epoxies (slow setting) and contact cement will work on dissimilar materials such as plastic and wood. The hard part would be the clamping :yikes:

Scuffing up the plastic helps as well (true for painting PVC too).


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## dnaples

Ah yes, that is a very good question. I tested the product before I did this job, and could not get the veneer back off the plastic tubes. Veneer is available with 3M transfer tape used as the glue. I use this stuff in my shop to hold wood pieces together when routing in a place where I can not use a clamp. It really sticks well.


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## dnaples

Anthony said:


> I can't speak to what he used, but many 2 part epoxies (slow setting) and contact cement will work on dissimilar materials such as plastic and wood. The hard part would be the clamping :yikes:
> 
> Scuffing up the plastic helps as well (true for painting PVC too).


When I paint plastic, I first use DuPont "Plas-Stick" 2322S(tm). I have never had a problem with painting over that product.


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## Paul P

dnaples said:


> When I paint plastic, I first use DuPont "Plas-Stick" 2322S(tm). I have never had a problem with painting over that product.


Thanks for this tip, looks like useful stuff. According to DuPont's *data sheet* :
_Plas-Stick® 2322S™ must be primed or sealed prior to topcoating
_​Paul P


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## dnaples

Paul P said:


> must be primed or sealed prior to topcoating
> [/I][/INDENT]Paul P


Yes, I should have made that clear that one still has to use primer before painting.


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## erwinbel

jimfrank said:


> Man, I'd love to build a set of Orions. Too bad I'd have to build a house to fit them in, first...


Hey! I for one, am a great admirer of Koenig. He built his first house when he was still in college!
http://www.jetsetmodern.com/koenigarticle.htm
What a guy. I am twice his age than when he built his first house, but I am aiming high! Our living area will be 100% open plan to accomodate a pair of open baffle Jamo R909... Better looking then the Orions, but with "normal" :crying: passive crossovers.


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