# Wooden blocks under amps... do they make a difference?



## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

I was at my local "audiophile" HT shop and they had some beautiful looking equipment in there. 

But I noticed these wooden blocks underneath amps in the home theater rooms. They looked almost
like butcher blocks. Big slaps of Maple underneath the amps. So you know I had to ask...

"What are those for?"

"Those are amplifier blocks, the improve the sound." The sales said it with a straight face. So of course I asked how. And he told me they block vibrations and isolate the component. And they certainly look like they did. But it kinda felt like Audio Snake Oil like the $100 RCA cables hanging on the wall in the place.

But then I started wondering, do these things actually work? I could see if it was somekind of tube AMP, but these were under some beefy Parasounds. 

Has anybody else seen these things, or better yet experienced them? I would love to put the signals from one of these amps through an oscilloscope to be sure.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

An amplifier that is sensitive to microphonic vibration pickup might benefit from SOME kind of isolation, like some tube amps. This is the first I have heard of a slab of wood, although with the markup it makes sense that someone would get around to pushing it. Wish I had, although my conscience would not let me sleep well.

With solid state electronics, I am aware of no benefit from vibration isolation. With tube amps, turntables, and _maybe_ CD changers..... _MAYBE._

Then wood seems like a poor performer. You want some combination of:

Mass. Think granite block. Lots of mass to absorb energy.
Springiness. Something soft, fluffy, springy, to allow vibration on one side and not transmit it to the other side.
If you use both, then you have the potential makings of a resonant system, so the combination has to be designed to work together.

There are lots of fun products out there claiming to help. I am not a believer in any of them... except for one maglev thing that just looks cool. Others may claim otherwise.....

This is in reference to electronics. Speaker isolation, while not clearcut, is another discussion altogether.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Wooden blocks certainly do make a difference and it is measurable. They increase height.

As for sound quality, I would have to agree with AudiocRaver.

But we could do a little speculating... Adding blocks might increase ventilation. For amps running under conditions that are near thermal limits one might actually avoid that very opaque sound that comes with activation of thermal protection. Or for an amp that runs better at a slightly higher temp, such as one using MosFet outputs, you might argue that it would not sound as good with a lower operating temperature because of the ventilation. I am sure Brian could come up with a modification by applying some of his materials used for room treatments to solve that problem.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

The only electrical reason I can see why you might do this is because the AMP is making contact with ground and it's inducing a ground loop in to the system.


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## telemike (Apr 8, 2013)

Wood transmits vibrations. Look at violins and acoustic guitars, The wood determines the musical tone, they are not vibration absorbers.

I use these to put air gaps between my equipment stack. Get them at Lowes.

http://www.benchdog.com/bench-cookie.cfm


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## msmith (Mar 18, 2013)

telemike said:


> Wood transmits vibrations. Look at violins and acoustic guitars, The wood determines the musical tone, they are not vibration absorbers.
> 
> I use these to put air gaps between my equipment stack. Get them at Lowes.
> 
> http://www.benchdog.com/bench-cookie.cfm


Paint those shiny black and you could sell them for $300 each at audiophile events. 

I just returned from the NY Audio Show and there were plenty of wood discs and hyper-expensive machined feet, errrr, "isolation products" that looked very dubious.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

If you use directional wood, make sure you have the grain oriented correctly.


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## Medi0gre (Oct 30, 2012)

lcaillo said:


> Wooden blocks certainly do make a difference and it is measurable. They increase height.


Rofl!! I just spewed beer all over my keyboard.


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## telemike (Apr 8, 2013)

I know these discussions about audiophile stuff like cables, feet, and other items that increase sound clarity can devovle into flame wars....

My experience tells me that if a difference can't be shown using a null difference test. 

I just use these cookies to put more air above and below my amp for more airflow rather than sonic improvement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smaart


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

Wow... The sales person is just that.. a sales person with no clue to the fundamental principles of amplification, electronics, or electricity for that matter. Run far away from him as he's only interested in your money. Nothing else. For SS amps, I will categorically say NO SONIC improvement.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

telemike said:


> _Wood transmits vibrations_. Look at violins and acoustic guitars, The wood determines the musical tone, they are not vibration absorbers.
> 
> I use these to put air gaps between my equipment stack. Get them at Lowes.
> 
> http://www.benchdog.com/bench-cookie.cfm



Ever hit a baseball and feel a strong painful vibrational shock from the bat move up your your arms and hands?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

lcaillo said:


> Wooden blocks certainly do make a difference and it is measurable. They increase height.


Thats just so funny, :rofl: my co workers even asked me what was so funny as I laughed out loud reading this.
Wooden blocks under amps, whats next Springs under our seating to prevent transfer of vibration to the floor?


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

8086 said:


> Ever hit a baseball and feel a strong painful vibrational shock from the bat move up your your arms and hands?


If your AVR is an environment to the analogy you suggest, then component leads will begin to break, PCB tracks begin to tear and solder joints begin to fracture. I would worry far more about that then sonic improvements. Just to be clear, transmission of electrical energy is impervious to physical vibration, especially the low vibration experienced in ones Home Theater environment. Its just snake oil with no documented objective measurements to show other wise. Advertising literature is far from objective truth.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

8086 said:


> Ever hit a baseball and feel a strong painful vibrational shock from the bat move up your your arms and hands?


And allow better air flow ..which improves reliabiity but does nothing to promote sonic improvement.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Years ago when I had my Audible Illusions tube preamp... I experimented with cables, tubes, dampeners, and racks. I found that all of the above made a dif but the biggest was the rack and how each part was suspended ie. sorbothane, spikes etc. When I moved to a Classe DR6 preamp (solid State) I found that none of the above made any dif. IMO it makes no dif if you are using decent cables and have a solid rack to set your equipment on... except if you use a tube preamp or tube power amp. I believe the reason the Classe didn't care about the cables was the low input impedance.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Being as open minded as possible about it all:

There was a time when transformers - other than power transformers - were found more commonly in audio gear at input stages, and could sometimes have some microphonic sensitivity to vibration. Also, rarely, optical isolators for analog signals could be made from discrete components and be microphonically sensitive. Some vintage gear might benefit from vibration isolation devices, but as has been pointed out, wood wouldn't (hey, a pun!) be the best material.

With the modern components used in 99.9% of the gear we deal with - other than tubes (and a good design minimizes this) - it is not an issue. And wood is the wrong material.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

telemike said:


> Wood transmits vibrations. Look at violins and acoustic guitars, The wood determines the musical tone, they are not vibration absorbers.
> 
> I use these to put air gaps between my equipment stack. Get them at Lowes.
> 
> http://www.benchdog.com/bench-cookie.cfm


Thanks, I'm going to check to see if my Lowes or Home Depot actually has these in stock for my Onkyo. That thing runs hot.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Just get some old hockey pucks, it will achieve the same thing.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Yeah, I thought about it and I have some scrap wood in the garage, I can make some blocks to raise gear.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Just get some old hockey pucks, it will achieve the same thing.


LOL, talk about regional differences, never in a 100 years would I have thought about using a hockey puck for anything.
Good suggestion though, they are probably tough as nails.


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## Big Dave (Jan 26, 2012)

Voodoo


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

chashint said:


> LOL, talk about regional differences, never in a 100 years would I have thought about using a hockey puck for anything.
> Good suggestion though, they are probably tough as nails.


So, Mechman, someone HAS identified a good use for those things.


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## telemike (Apr 8, 2013)

The bench cookies are cool since they are meant to hold your fancy wood block isolaters from vibrating as you sand them down to a fine finish....


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## mechman (Feb 8, 2007)

lcaillo said:


> So, Mechman, someone HAS identified a good use for those things.


They work great for doctors/dentists as well. :T


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## thucker (May 25, 2012)

It would have been more believable if the salesman said it was to promote air circulation and help cool the equipment. Otherwise... :heehee::heehee::rofl::rofl:


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Just get some old hockey pucks, it will achieve the same thing.


Just because it looks like a hockey puck does not mean it will function like one.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

mpompey said:


> Yeah, I thought about it and I have some scrap wood in the garage, I can make some blocks to raise gear.


This is the craziest thing about marketing "high end" wood blocks... how can they possibly argue against you making your own? I can see the case for precision milled titanium, or graphite or some exotic material... but a slab of wood? I think most people can handle that on their own. :huh:

I sat in on a demo for one of the big name companies with similar products. I think if I remember correctly they had a few different performance levels that the rep sequentially introduced while playing a segment of music over and over. The rep would say things like "can you hear the bass tighten up?" ... I just kept quiet because I couldn't tell a difference between any of them, and everyone else in the room seemed to be smiling and nodding, or waving cash at him.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Owen Bartley said:


> The rep would say things like "can you hear the bass tighten up?" ... I just kept quiet because I couldn't tell a difference between any of them, and everyone else in the room seemed to be smiling and nodding, or waving cash at him.


Thats the power of suggestion at its finest LOL


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Owen Bartley said:


> This is the craziest thing about marketing "high end" wood blocks... how can they possibly argue against you making your own? I can see the case for precision milled titanium, or graphite or some exotic material... but a slab of wood? I think most people can handle that on their own. :huh:
> 
> I sat in on a demo for one of the big name companies with similar products. I think if I remember correctly they had a few different performance levels that the rep sequentially introduced while playing a segment of music over and over. The rep would say things like "can you hear the bass tighten up?" ... I just kept quiet because I couldn't tell a difference between any of them, and everyone else in the room seemed to be smiling and nodding, or waving cash at him.


What the opening post failed to mention is the type of wood? Some species are about as hard and as dense as iron and will dull your tools in a matter of minutes. If it is some exotic species, then i might see paying xxx dollars for the vanity factor alone.


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## Bob R (Apr 21, 2013)

I've been waiting for one of these snake oil product threads to go by.

You'll be happy to hear that you all passed the test.

If I don't get banned for this post, it means that you are:

Knowledgeable and savvy at the same time. :clap::clap::clap:


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## Sevenfeet (Feb 2, 2009)

Only air circulations makes sense for this kind of application. Otherwise in the words of Click and Clack on NPR, "BOGUS!!!!!!"


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Sevenfeet said:


> Only air circulations makes sense for this kind of application. Otherwise in the words of Click and Clack on NPR, "BOGUS!!!!!!"


Place one of these fancy wooden blocks under your gas pedal and it will more than double your mileage! :meter:


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## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

The sad thing is that some major audio manufacturers have an alleged "audiophile" line that touts advantages like a center support on the bottom of the chassis while others brag about anti-vibration chassis.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

TheHammer said:


> The sad thing is that some major audio manufacturers have an alleged "audiophile" line that touts advantages like a center support on the bottom of the chassis while others brag about anti-vibration chassis.


The center foot thing is advertised by Yamaha but I pay little creedance to that particular part. What makes the Adventage line so good is the symmetrical layout of the channels with respect to one another. From the performance measurements that I've seen by various reviewers, it delivers the goods. You'll be hard pressed to find a pre-amp that will match the performance of the pre-amp sections found in the Adventage series regardless of cost.


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## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

3dbinCanada said:


> The center foot thing is advertised by Yamaha but I pay little creedance to that particular part. What makes the Adventage line so good is the symmetrical layout of the channels with respect to one another. From the performance measurements that I've seen by various reviewers, it delivers the goods. You'll be hard pressed to find a pre-amp that will match the performance of the pre-amp sections found in the Adventage series regardless of cost.


I have heard good things about Yamaha. I have an ancient Yamaha receiver and it keeps on ticking. Of course that does not mean that they are made the same way today.

But it ticks me off that they so prominently market such a bogus 'feature' as the center foot.

I have no clue what the 'symmetrical layout' does to how it sounds. I would like to see a double blind listen test between the A and the V line. I suspect it is just a marketing push to get more $ for the same product and that silly center foot is evidence #1.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

TheHammer said:


> I have heard good things about Yamaha. I have an ancient Yamaha receiver and it keeps on ticking. Of course that does not mean that they are made the same way today.
> 
> But it ticks me off that they so prominently market such a bogus 'feature' as the center foot.
> 
> I have no clue what the 'symmetrical layout' does to how it sounds. I would like to see a double blind listen test between the A and the V line. I suspect it is just a marketing push to get more $ for the same product and that silly center foot is evidence #1.


The A series measures considerably better in all aspects than the V series not that the V series measured poorly. Whether one can hear the differences in a blind listening test is another story. There is also a lot of added functionality in the A series that is no there in the V series. I would not feel ripped off in teh slightest in buying an A series receiver. They are considered best bang for the buck receiver out there.


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## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

3dbinCanada said:


> The A series measures considerably better in all aspects than the V series not that the V series measured poorly. Whether one can hear the differences in a blind listening test is another story. There is also a lot of added functionality in the A series that is no there in the V series. I would not feel ripped off in teh slightest in buying an A series receiver. They are considered best bang for the buck receiver out there.


I agree with your comment about measurements vs. listening: specs have a lousy correlation to how an amp sounds. Out of curiosity, what about "The A series measures considerably better in all aspects than the V series"?

I am also curious what you have found to be "a lot of added functionality in the A series" as I have not been able to quantify the difference.

Thanks.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

TheHammer said:


> I agree with your comment about measurements vs. listening: specs have a lousy correlation to how an amp sounds. Out of curiosity, what about "The A series measures considerably better in all aspects than the V series"?
> 
> I am also curious what you have found to be "a lot of added functionality in the A series" as I have not been able to quantify the difference.
> 
> Thanks.


Spec are a great indicator when amps/receivers are delivering power into their intended design load without bass management and room correction employed as they will sound the same. 

I was comparing measurements from the RX-V1800/RX-V3800 (the 1800 of which I own) to the RX-A2020. The pre-am sections of A2020 have better crosstalk and SNR specs and the power output is also better than the RX-V 1800/3800 models. Its been a while since I took a look at Yamaha's webpage and I see that they phased out the HTR series which is now replaced by the RX-V series. The feature sets are same between the two.


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## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

3dbinCanada said:


> Spec are a great indicator when amps/receivers are delivering power into their intended design load without bass management and room correction employed as they will sound the same.
> 
> I was comparing measurements from the RX-V1800/RX-V3800 (the 1800 of which I own) to the RX-A2020. The pre-am sections of A2020 have better crosstalk and SNR specs and the power output is also better than the RX-V 1800/3800 models. Its been a while since I took a look at Yamaha's webpage and I see that they phased out the HTR series which is now replaced by the RX-V series. The feature sets are same between the two.


I went to the Yamaha website, eager to look up the specs for the RX-A2020. While they list power (140 watts) for this $1,700 receiver, they do not seem to list s/n nor crosstalk. They do talk about how great their design is in their marketing dribble. Before I pony up a premium price, I want proof that it is worth it.

I have been buying amps / receivers since the late 60's and I cannot remember crosstalk being an issue in an amp, ever. S/N was an issue 40 years ago, then again when the first receivers came out with a/d and d/a converters, but I would be shocked to find that it is an problem now with even the cheapest receivers made today


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

TheHammer said:


> I went to the Yamaha website, eager to look up the specs for the RX-A2020. While they list power (140 watts) for this $1,700 receiver, they do not seem to list s/n nor crosstalk. They do talk about how great their design is in their marketing dribble. Before I pony up a premium price, I want proof that it is worth it.
> 
> I have been buying amps / receivers since the late 60's and I cannot remember crosstalk being an issue in an amp, ever. S/N was an issue 40 years ago, then again when the first receivers came out with a/d and d/a converters, but I would be shocked to find that it is an problem now with even the cheapest receivers made today


I don't rely on manufacturer's advertised specs. I look at 2nd party tests from sites like Audioholics, magaiznes like Stereophile, Home Theater magazine, etc. I don't waste time with reviews that only eposue subjective opinions without meausrements to back them up. 


http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/rx-a1010/rx-a1010-measurements

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-yamaha-aventage-rx-a2010-av-receiver?page=0,2

http://www.hometheater.com/content/yamaha-rx-a1020-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

3dbinCanada said:


> I don't rely on manufacturer's advertised specs. I look at 2nd party tests from sites like Audioholics, magaiznes like Stereophile, Home Theater magazine, etc. I don't waste time with reviews that only eposue subjective opinions without meausrements to back them up.
> 
> 
> http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/rx-a1010/rx-a1010-measurements
> ...


:TT lddude:


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## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

3dbinCanada said:


> I don't rely on manufacturer's advertised specs. I look at 2nd party tests from sites like Audioholics, magaiznes like Stereophile, Home Theater magazine, etc. I don't waste time with reviews that only eposue subjective opinions without meausrements to back them up.
> 
> http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/rx-a1010/rx-a1010-measurements
> 
> ...


Agreed. A quality independent reference is best.

One of the problems I have is that different reviewers use different techniques, making comparisons more difficult. Some also use regulated AC power sources that are not found in the real world, at least not in my house.

Have you found any reviews that indicate that the Yamaha "A" brand is worth the higher price vs. the "V" brand? Same with Pioneer Elite vs. standard.

I am willing to pay the difference if there is objective evidence to support.


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## aurelius (Nov 25, 2012)

Hi there,

Stumbled on this while searching for network/usb cables:
http://www.cardas.com/myrtle_wood_blocks.php

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/images/smilies/whistling.gif


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

> Stumbled on this while searching for network/usb cables:
> http://www.cardas.com/myrtle_wood_blocks.php


Hmmm...six blocks for ~$35 or 50 blocks for $15.

I'd go with the latter. You get comparable performance *and* a lot more blocks for a lot less money.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

eljay said:


> Hmmm...six blocks for ~$35 or 50 blocks for $15.
> 
> I'd go with the latter. You get comparable performance *and* a lot more blocks for a lot less money.


Full Review, lol
http://hifi-unlimited.blogspot.com/2009/11/wonder-wood-cardas-golden-cuboid.html


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

There are many questions raised by these products. What is the reasoning behind triangular notches in the cable lifters. Seems to me that it should be a parabolic design for maximum effect. 

Also, should we even be discussing these products in a public forum? If word gets out, imagine the environmental impact of a run on these. We could decimate the population of myrtle trees in Oregon. And are these myrtle trees organically grown, under natural conditions, or are these genetically modified myrtles? And what of the loggers that harvest them? Are they paid a fair wage? Are they legal immigrants or are the surreptitiously recruited in Canada and brought in to take jobs from American workers?

I like the idea of using recycled hockey pucks instead. Maybe they won't sound quite as good as myrtle, but at least I could sleep at night. Besides, Mech probably has a garage full of them and all they need is to have the teeth removed.


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## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

aurelius said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Stumbled on this while searching for network/usb cables:
> http://www.cardas.com/myrtle_wood_blocks.php
> ...


That is funny, because I live in one of those two counties where this "rarest of woods" is found. Some claim it is the same tree as the California laurel tree.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

TheHammer said:


> That is funny, because I live in one of those two counties where this "rarest of woods" is found. Some claim it is the same tree as the California laurel tree.


I think the exclusivity and rarity of the device make it psychologically sound better and matter more than it's actual basic function. Same can be said for 99% of the superfluous glamour cabling out there. That type Myrtle or Laurel tree maybe common in your county, but it's natural habitat or growth range is rather limited and does not spill outside a small area of the Pacific-Northwest making it an uncommon wood.


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