# Should I upgrade to 1080p from 1080i?



## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

I currently have am Epson Powerlite Cinema 550 projector and a home made 90" laminate screen. My sources are an HD-A2 or PS3 which feed my projector's 1080i maximum resolution. My viewing distances are about 9' from the first row an about 12' from the second row. I'm not really seeing any pixelation from either distance. The lamp in the projector has almost 800 hours on it and will probably last another year at current viewing habits. I'm thinking about selling it before that happens (say around Xmas time) to get a little cash out of it while it's still worth something.

So should upgrade to 1080p or stick with what I have? 
Will I see much of difference going from 1080i to 1080p?
Is 24fps capability a big deal?

If I were to upgrade I would probably be considering an Epson 1080UB or Panasonic PT-AE2000U or the Sanyo PLV-Z2000.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

There is little difference between 1080i and 1080p the only thing that will be better is if you watch alot of movies with fast moving camera pans where you see the studder thats where the 24fps comes in as it will look smoother at 1080p.
with just a 90" screen your not going to see much if any difference for most movies.


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## solid7 (Jan 31, 2008)

I'm not expert or video guru - but I couldn't disagree more, as far as watching movies that are full HD compliant. For a DVD, you probably will find that 720, 1080i, 1080p, no real difference. But when you get into Blu-Ray, with full HD, 1080i and 1080p don't look anything alike. (at least in my experience) I don't have even 90", but the difference is pretty clear to me.

FWIW, I also have the PS3, and I haven't found any BD player that I like better yet...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

solid7 said:


> as far as watching movies that are full HD compliant. For a DVD, you probably will find that 720, 1080i, 1080p, no real difference. But when you get into Blu-Ray, with full HD, 1080i and 1080p don't look anything alike. (at least in my experience) I don't have even 90", but the difference is pretty clear to me.
> 
> FWIW, I also have the PS3, and I haven't found any BD player that I like better yet...


That fully depends on the native resolution of the display you are using. 
I have a 720p projector and at 96" BluRay look fantastic! going from 1080i to 1080p is not a change in resaution it is simply drawing all the scan lines from top to bottom where as 1080i is odd lines first then even. Progressive is faster and thus can be smother if watching fast paced action and sports with lots of fast camera pans.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

I'm wondering also if the improved contrast ratio of the newer projectors would be worth it. I think the 550 has 3000:1 where as the 1080UB advertises 50,000:1 in high contrast mode. 

It would be nice if I could rent one for a day or so to get a better feel and do some serious A/B comparisons. Most rental companies I've seen either do business presentation projectors or super high end Barco or Christie projectors for live (big venue) shows.


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

Is there a dealer that would let you bring in your current projector for a side by side?

I agree that the jump from 1080i to 1080p would not be worth the extra expense. But if you are upgrading anyways you might as well go ahead. The contrast difference could make a significant difference though.


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## Toolatecrew (Jul 10, 2008)

The only source you own that will do 1080P is the PS3. The HDa2 (I have an A3) will only output 1080i or 720p. All HD TV is either 1080i or 720P.

That said you probaly will find that one of the projectors you listed give an improvemnt in picture even if you fed them 720P sources. They simply have better optics, chips, panels and contrast than your older projector. The contrast ratios are a little deciving becuase some projectors use an auto iris to boost the contrast. 

If you are happy with your picture I would not spend the $ to simply go 1080P (unless you watch a LOT of BVlu Ray on your PS3. If you want an upgrade in picture and have the $ to spend any of those would be a fine upgrade.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

Thanks for all of your input.

I mainly watch Bluray movies through the PS3 with the occasional DVD and game thrown in. The HDA2 is pretty much collecting dust as I only have 4 movies for it and don't plan on buying any more. I'll probably end up moving the HDA2 upstairs to use as an upconverting DVD player for my 30" HD CRT. 

I do notice the auto-iris on the Epson 550 occasionally. It can be relatively noisy but it's not too noticeable unless it's a really quiet scene. I've been reading too that the contrast ratios can be misleading and not necessarily accurate.

There are not too many dealers in my area that have theater room setups. The ones that do sell ridiculously high end stuff (Runco) and their markup is typically pretty high. 

I think I'm going to see if I can get a rental somewhere and test it out for a weekend. I might even stoop as low as trying one out from one of the big box stores (if I can find a projector) and then return it within the 30-day money back window.


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## Keith from Canada (Jan 30, 2008)

solid7 said:


> I'm not expert or video guru - but I couldn't disagree more, as far as watching movies that are full HD compliant. For a DVD, you probably will find that 720, 1080i, 1080p, no real difference. But when you get into Blu-Ray, with full HD, 1080i and 1080p don't look anything alike. (at least in my experience) I don't have even 90", but the difference is pretty clear to me.
> 
> FWIW, I also have the PS3, and I haven't found any BD player that I like better yet...


A 1080p Blu Ray downconverted into a 720p projector will look virtually identical to a 1080p image sent to a 1080p projector. The only way that you would be able to see a difference is if you increased screen size significantly or moved much closer to the screen.

A 1080p projector will have an advantage in that it is able to display the native resolution and will not be bothered with downconverting errors such as the occassional jaggie or motion blur. Of course, some projectors are better than others at downconverting.


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

Hello,

I'll quickly say the main difference between 1080i & p is not only de-interlacing. It's a move from a native resolution 720 to 1080: that means less screen door effect and a much better/sharper looking Blu-ray experience to begin with. On DVD, I doubt there will be that much difference though in terms of resolution (which is never the dominant factor in picture reproduction anyway), but the real benefit may be somehow a better contrast ratio, pixel fill rate (brightness), a higher color bit that accompany more expensive 1080 projectors in general. That may be the real benefit of such an upgrade.


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## Keith from Canada (Jan 30, 2008)

Blaser said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'll quickly say the main difference between 1080i & p is not only de-interlacing. It's a move from a native resolution 720 to 1080: that means less screen door effect and a much better/sharper looking Blu-ray experience to begin with. On DVD, I doubt there will be that much difference though in terms of resolution (which is never the dominant factor in picture reproduction anyway), but the real benefit may be somehow a better contrast ratio, pixel fill rate (brightness), a higher color bit that accompany more expensive 1080 projectors in general. That may be the real benefit of such an upgrade.


I won't belabor the points that I've already made but contrast ratio, sharpness, brightness or color bit rates are not effected, in any way, by the higher native resolution. None of these will be any better or worse on a 720p vs. 1080p projector unless you're comparing a very low-end 720p to a higher-end 1080p (and the same is true when you compare a low-end 1080p to a high-end 1080p projector).

It is true that 1080p will give you higher resolution/less screen door effect on 1080p sources (currently only Blu Ray) however, in order for the human eye to perceive the difference, the image would need to be much larger, or you would need to sit much closer, than what most people tend to do.

For the record, I have seen 1080p and 720p side by side playing the same 1080p source. I find it very difficult to believe that anyone would see the difference between the two. That being said, as I mention in my previous post, there will always be 'artifacts' (e.g. motion blur or jaggies) when you downconvert an image. These are few and far between but they are there. 

Bottom line is this - if you can afford a 1080p projector, go for it! It's the wave of the future and you may as well jump aboard now. If cost is an issue, you can, in good conscious, get a good 720p projector and know that you really aren't missing out on much at all.


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

Keith from Canada said:


> Bottom line is this - if you can afford a 1080p projector, go for it! It's the wave of the future and you may as well jump aboard now. If cost is an issue, you can, in good conscious, get a good 720p projector and know that you really aren't missing out on much at all.


I'd agree with this statement but I think if you are plunking down a hunk of change for a new projector you might as well go 1080p or wait until you can afford to do so. On large screens (101" in my case) the difference in sharpness and screen door effect is notable.


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

Keith from Canada said:


> I won't belabor the points that I've already made but contrast ratio, sharpness, brightness or color bit rates are not effected, in any way, by the higher native resolution.


Unfortunately you didn't take the time to properly understand what I wrote. I never said a higher native resolution would affect CR, B or color bit.

Pls read again what I said:

"but the real benefit may be somehow a better contrast ratio, pixel fill rate (brightness), a higher color bit that *accompany* more expensive *1080 projectors in general*."

Reformulating what I wrote: 1080p projectors, being generally more expensive than their 720 p counterpart, are likely to be given more attention by their designers as far as contrast ratio, brightness, colour bit rate.... are concerned.



> It is true that 1080p will give you higher resolution/less screen door effect on 1080p sources (currently only Blu Ray) however, in order for the human eye to perceive the difference, the image would need to be much larger, or you would need to sit much closer, than what most people tend to do.


1080 native resolution projectors will give less screen door effect not only with blu-ray (not to mention LCD misconvergence is less noticeable also assuming the same no. of pixels), but with any source.



> For the record, I have seen 1080p and 720p side by side playing the same 1080p source. I find it very difficult to believe that anyone would see the difference between the two. That being said, as I mention in my previous post, there will always be 'artifacts' (e.g. motion blur or jaggies) when you downconvert an image. These are few and far between but they are there.


That's because you're not sitting close or screen is not very big (at least not big enough to benefit from a higher resolution display).....You said it somewhere in your post.


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

MatrixDweller said:


> I currently have am Epson Powerlite Cinema 550 projector and a home made 90" laminate screen.





> If I were to upgrade I would probably be considering an Epson UB or Panasonic PT-AE2000U or the Sanyo PLV-Z2000.


I'll give my personal opinion:

I believe the UB would be overall much better than the Cinema 550 but it is also much brighter (you may want to consider a darker screen). The AE200U would be my second choice. The Sanyo would also be fine and might not require that you change your screen material.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

I'm all for making a new screen. My first attempt suits me for now, but I know I could do a much better job the second time around. My current screen is made of white Formica. It does the trick and only cost about $80 to build. I guess a darker screen would help improve the black levels and allow some of the lights to be on. 

I typically run the Epson 550 in Theater mode which tends to yield the best colour and contrast performance and also lowers the fan RPM so it becomes somewhat inaudible. I read on projector central that the UB almost doubles the ANSI lumens in Theater mode. Funny since they use the same bulb. Maybe it's from better optics and LCD panel translucence. I would expect that the 1080UB would be better since it's two generations newer. 

I've been reading that the contrast ratio's spec'ed by the manufacturer are almost worthless, but I would assume that 3000 vs 50,000 from the same manufacturer must mean something.

Does anyone know what Epson (or other manufacturers) has planned for release later this year? Epson tend to release new projector in mid to late autumn from what I've seen.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

I think I may have just found what I was looking for www.AVDeals.ca has a try before you buy program on Epson projectors. I might have to try that.

http://avdeals.ca/demo_projectors.htm


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2008)

I'm sorry to say but on a big enough screen (96" and more), the difference between a picture upconvert to 1080i from a native 720p projector and a picture that is not upconvert on a native 1080p is huge!!!
The overall picture is much better! Most of the time the reason why people can't barely see a difference is because of the screen size (50 to 60 inches) and it's not really where the 1080p shines when compared to a 1080i. 
Size matters.....


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

Luclambert said:


> Most of the time the reason why people can't barely see a difference is because of the screen size (50 to 60 inches) and it's not really where the 1080p shines when compared to a 1080i.
> Size matters.....


This is true but you have to remember that there is no difference in resolution between 1080i and 1080p. Only the method used to display the image is different and is usually hard to detect. Likely, a 1080p source may have had more care put into its production leading to a higher image quality not directly linked to the format itself. When you refer to 'a' 1080i display vs a 1080p display.. they are the same resolution, only a 1080p display is marketed differently and may be able to handle a 1080p signal.

Between 720 and 1080 is about double the resolution so a difference would be detectable.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

If the native resolution of the LCD panels in a 720p/1080i projector are 1280 x 720 pixels and in a 1080p projector they are 1920x1080 pixels how does a 720p projector do 1080i? It only has 720 lines to play with. 1080i is 540 lines interlaced. 540 doesn't overlap evenly onto 720 exactly. Would the display just be converting the 1080i image into 720p?


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

MatrixDweller said:


> Would the display just be converting the 1080i image into 720p?


:yes: The same goes for a 1080 set (other than CRT) displaying 1080i. It's converted to 1080p for display and the picture quality problems that arise are rooted in this process. By sending a 1080p data stream that process is skipped.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

MatrixDweller said:


> If the native resolution of the LCD panels in a 720p/1080i projector are 1280 x 720 pixels and in a 1080p projector they are 1920x1080 pixels how does a 720p projector do 1080i? It only has 720 lines to play with. 1080i is 540 lines interlaced. 540 doesn't overlap evenly onto 720 exactly. Would the display just be converting the 1080i image into 720p?


The process is called scaling, but more precisely what is done is resampling. The data is passed though a matrix conversion that makes approximations based on the 1080i image. It also has to be de-interlaced. The result can be anything from near flawless to very much laden with artifacts of the de-interlacing and/or the resampling, depending on the processor.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

MatrixDweller said:


> 1080i is 540 lines interlaced. 540 doesn't overlap evenly onto 720 exactly.


Not sure what you are saying here? This is not correct, 1080i is 1080 lines interlaced it has nothing to do with 540i (a format that is all but abandoned by the way) I think some people are still confused about what the difference is between progressive and interlaced.
Neither is a change in resolution rather how the image is drawn, Progressive video is drawn one line at a time 1, 2, 3, 4....from the top to the bottom of the screen every 60th of a second known as frames. Interlaced video is drawn from tho top to bottom as well but odd lines first 1, 3, 5, 7....in the first 30th of a second and the even lines in the second 30th of a second known as fields. 
Interlaced video does have some disadvantages in comparison with progressive. It's prone to causing "artifacts", which look like a kind of "comb" effect, especially in slow motion or in still grabs from moving video. They are caused by the relative movement between two fields that make up a single frame and wont look as smooth however movies that have slower pans and stills will look just as good as the refresh rate can keep up.
A 720p display will look just as good or even better than a 1080i display unless the image is made very large (above 120").


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> Not sure what you are saying here? This is not correct, 1080i is 1080 lines interlaced it has nothing to do with 540i (a format that is all but abandoned by the way) I think some people are still confused about what the difference is between progressive and interlaced.
> Neither is a change in resolution rather how the image is drawn, Progressive video is drawn one line at a time 1, 2, 3, 4....from the top to the bottom of the screen every 60th of a second known as frames. Interlaced video is drawn from tho top to bottom as well but odd lines first 1, 3, 5, 7....in the first 30th of a second and the even lines in the second 30th of a second known as fields.


1080 cut in half is 540 lines in one frame (even lines 2 to 1080) and 540 in the next (the odd lines 1 to 1079). A 720p LCD only has 720 lines to play with not 1080 because it's a fixed pixel display (unlike CRT). The lines would be cut off at 720 (even) and 719 (odd) if it were done the way you wrote. I think thxgoon and more so lcaillo gave a good explanation.


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

Icaillo gave the accurate description of what really happens. But why are you guys complicating things?

1080p native projectors are better than 720p native projector on 1080p material if everything except resolution is the same... That's it!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

True, but this thread is about going from 1080i to 1080p and is not a resolution change and is not 1080i at 540 lines. Its not a big change certainly not worth spending what it costs to get 1080p.


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

1080i input will at best be as nice as a 720p input on a 720p projector, but might be better than a 720 p signal on a 1080p projector. 

I think the OP asked if upgrading from a 720 projector to a 1080p native projector is worth the money and therefore thread title 1080i to 1080p is indeed misleading (as I understand). To be accurate I'd say from 720p to 1080p which implies a change in resolution.

Worth spending or not will depend on many factors and is subjected to each one's opinion... But I believe you will agree there's no doubt BD is a killer on a 1080p projector


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