# Surround speakers



## JustinAdams (Dec 4, 2010)

Well... 
My family HATES wires :help: so i get yelled at alot about them for the rear speakers. and ive seen virtual surround (sound bars ext...) BUT i don't want to get rid of my system and go in that direction yet. soooooo
would there be any way for me to make speakers to set up from on top of my mains. and design them in a way so they sound like they are behind you?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm not sure about a good answer for your speaker building question but why not just do wireless speakers if the wires are bothersome? Thats the route i would take.:T


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## JustinAdams (Dec 4, 2010)

well is there any kits i can buy to build some wireless speakers?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

There are no wireless kits available that i am aware of but you could do a kit from Parts Express and add a wireless system from BestBuy or somewhere else. That should work for you.:dontknow:


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## JustinAdams (Dec 4, 2010)

hmmm, well that sounds okay


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Let us know how it comes out. Some manufacturers make wireless ready speakers all set to go right out of the box, the one brand that comes to mind is Klipsch.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

One alternative is to hid the wires undearneath baseboards and purchase some raceways, paint them to match the walls. Done right, it can be near inconspicuous.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

GranteedEV said:


> One alternative is to hid the wires undearneath baseboards and purchase some raceways, paint them to match the walls. Done right, it can be near inconspicuous.


+1 to that idea! It will also end up cheaper in the end.:T


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## JustinAdams (Dec 4, 2010)

well we re-did our flouring and made it tile. when we did this we did not put down base boards however, i could buy raceways. how much per ft do they cost, weres the best place to buy them?


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

JustinAdams said:


> well we re-did our flouring and made it tile. when we did this we did not put down base boards however, i could buy raceways. how much per ft do they cost, weres the best place to buy them?


The attic is probably the best place to run wire through. You can get all you need at home depot for that. Get in-wall wire from monoprice.com.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

You can get them from Parts Express, how much they are i'm not sure.:T


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## JustinAdams (Dec 4, 2010)

well... see i live in a double wide mobile home, there is no attic, but there is quite a craw space underneath (were i do all my network wireing), do you recommend running the wires under the house as a better solution?


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## JustinAdams (Dec 4, 2010)

also, i am wanting to build the surround speakers. should i go bipole. i want them to set on the floor but sound like they are ear level. is that possible or do i have to mount them at ear level?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Surround speakers should be abit above ear level.:T

Running your wire under your home would be fine except for being sure it's outdoor rated so it can survive the elements.


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## JustinAdams (Dec 4, 2010)

do u recomend building them?


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## bigvag (Jan 9, 2010)

Thats up to you, just make sure you get a good cross over network. I have di poles for my surrounds have them mounted about 2' above my ear level, and I love them.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

JustinAdams said:


> do u recomend building them?


If you can handle it i say go for it there is alot of work to do other then just throwing some drivers in a cabinet. I'm about to persue this daunting task myself and am pretty much jumping head first into the shallow end:yikes:. With enough reading up and studying you can do it though.:T


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

JustinAdams said:


> well... see i live in a double wide mobile home, there is no attic, but there is quite a craw space underneath (were i do all my network wireing), do you recommend running the wires under the house as a better solution?


Yes You might even run them along the network cable. Be sure to get the in-wall stuff from monoprice. Wireless speakers are okay, but not as good as wired right now. Someday we'll have truly wireless TVs and speakers, but they don't exist yet.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

JustinAdams said:


> also, i am wanting to build the surround speakers. should i go bipole. i want them to set on the floor but sound like they are ear level. is that possible or do i have to mount them at ear level?


Building speakers is fun. If you can build an angled baffle you could mount them up properly like a theater.:bigsmile:


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Wireless speakers still actually need wires since you have plug them in for power (unless Tesla's experiments have come to fruition)

The only speakers I have ever built were automotive subwoofers the perameters of which a very simple compared to 2-3 way system. Besides which I am still a fan of bipole surrounds which would be even more a task to complete imho.

You will want to atleast "try" to timber match the surrounds to your front speakers, its not as important as your front three but something to think about if your building. What are you main speakers btw?

If you are thinking 7 channel surround vice 5 you may wan to try going for the extra wide front stage vices adding rear channel.

As for your speaker wires I would run them in the same plenum as what your have your network cables in under your home. Make sure they are plenum rated such as the Belden 1861A


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## JustinAdams (Dec 4, 2010)

Cool...
@Andre i have two nice vintage technics 2-way's im not sure of the model, they are old but they sound awesome  they were given to me by my grandpa who also is some what of an autiophile. He told me he paid $1500 for a set with those speakers! but that was back when he was young and crazy lol


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Ok I take it the Technics are your main L/R? What are you using for a center? Or am I confusing the matter and your currently using the Technics as your rear surrounds. I don't remember Technics making anything "small".


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

JustinAdams said:


> do u recomend building them?


Build an established design unless you want to spend the next 5 years tweaking only to ultimately realize that it just won't work.  John Krutke, Dennis Murphy, Curte Campbell, and Troels Gravesen among many others have some awesome designs out there for you to look at. I'd stay away from Bipoles and Dipoles though. Krutke said it best:



Zaph Audio said:


> *Any chance of designing bipole and/or dipole surrounds?
> *No chance of that, and I recommend a ZA5.2 monopole for surrounds. The reason is that typical bipole and dipole surround speakers are seriously flawed designs, and the issues can be very audible in most installations. With dipole, generally 2 woofers and 2 tweeters are mounted in an angled cabinet and wired out of phase. If you sit exactly on axis, it's a full null in response and all you get is a reverberant sound field comprised of the systems's flawed power response. Interesting and sometimes freaky spacious sounding, but not at all realistic. Going off axis, even slightly, will result in a seriously combfiltered frequency response. Bipole surrounds have similar issues except that they will only sound normal on axis. Off axis, comb filtering shows up fast, particularly if the design has two tweeters. A final bit of information is that most mixing and mastering studios use monopole surrounds because studio designers are also well aware of the problems of bipole and dipole designs. The commercial hifi market is loaded with bipole and dipole surrounds because people keep buying them.
> 
> *I've heard it said that the surrounds have to be the same as the mains. Is that true?*
> No. They don't have to be the same size, nor do they even have to be the same design. Looking at the size issue first, most HT installations do indeed use the same sub high pass filter frequency as the mains. If using smaller surrounds, this could raise some red flags for power handling. However with most movies the average level of the surrounds is far lower than the mains. I generally recommend rear channels level set lower anyway, since highish surround levels often detract from the movie in front of you. So, for example, it is no problem using a TM for surrounds when you have an MTM up front. Now to the other issue, it's been claimed that surrounds need to be of similar design and/or from the same maker to allow for "seamless pans" or "tibre matching". Provided you have quality speakers all the way around without serious frequency response flaws, this is generally a non issue.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Oh well, my Axiom QS8s sound very nice and I don't seem to notice a sweetspot. As for combfiltered frequenzy responce..eh someone would have to explain that to me in my HT


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## JustinAdams (Dec 4, 2010)

Andre said:


> Ok I take it the Technics are your main L/R? What are you using for a center? Or am I confusing the matter and your currently using the Technics as your rear surrounds. I don't remember Technics making anything "small".


They are my mains and they are big! :bigsmile: Try 10" Wooffers 
i have the center channel that came with my system, do you recommend that or should i get a better center to match the qualities of my mains :dontknow:


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## 1Michael (Nov 2, 2006)

Nah, my dual 15's are big


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Your Left Right and Center should be "timber match" (sound the same) this just makes the sound that pan across your front soundstage seem seamless. Does that mean you have to have a center with a 10" woofer? Not in my humble opinion, especially if you are running a sub (which you should by the way in a HT). Do you feel that you current center does that for you? Or, do you find that when sound goes from the center to the mains you hear a distracting difference.

Again in my opinion, if you were to go out and try to find a new speaker that will match your mains you can narrow the search down a bit by finding that model number, looking it up and finding out what type of tweeter they use (hopefully not piezo, hard to find those now a days). Then find yourself an understanding dealer that will let you "try out" some centers in your home, if you can then its time to listen, eval, listen some more, bring someone else in to validate your findings, decision, buy, joy with the pride that You found what is best for You and not had a salesman Tell you what you want.


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## JustinAdams (Dec 4, 2010)

@buggers: i bet yours aren't vintage :T
@Andre Well actually theres not much difference in the sound between the 3... i would say they are "timber matched" but wile watching a movie the other night, i noticed a slight buzz in my center channel with the deeper voices. so for that reason i would like to get a better center so i will use most of your advice.
as for a sub... OF FREAKINN COURSE IM USEING A SUB :duh: its a custom 4th order bandpass that i built


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

A slight buzz?? Ok well first we must ascertain whether or not the buzz is coming from your speaker or from something else. Do you have Any other speaker your can put in its place just for comparison? Since you are using a sub check to see if your receiver center channel/mains are set to Small rather then Large, crossover points set to 80hz. Make sure speaker wires running to the centre are seated properly, no corrosion on the ends, not running near power wires. If everything else checks out we are back to finding out the model of your Techs. Probably the important part would be the type/size of tweeter as you will not normally find a centre with a 10 inch woofer. From there we should at least be able to narrow down your choices. i.e. in my opinion you wouldn’t want to mix horns with soft domes.


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## JustinAdams (Dec 4, 2010)

i think i was pushing the speaker too hard, when i lowered just the center, the buzzing went away. i will be looking up the mains and get back to you


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

The buzzing may be a cabinet resonance. I'd definitely look into

1) Decoupling the center from whatever it's sitting on
2) Lining the insides with OC705 etc and bracing it.


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## JustinAdams (Dec 4, 2010)

well... the center is the plastic speaker that came with the set... ive been wanting to replace it anyway


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Andre said:


> Your Left Right and Center should be "timber match" (sound the same) this just makes the sound that pan across your front soundstage seem seamless. Does that mean you have to have a center with a 10" woofer? Not in my humble opinion, especially if you are running a sub (which you should by the way in a HT). Do you feel that you current center does that for you? Or, do you find that when sound goes from the center to the mains you hear a distracting difference.
> 
> Again in my opinion, if you were to go out and try to find a new speaker that will match your mains you can narrow the search down a bit by finding that model number, looking it up and finding out what type of tweeter they use (hopefully not piezo, hard to find those now a days). Then find yourself an understanding dealer that will let you "try out" some centers in your home, if you can then its time to listen, eval, listen some more, bring someone else in to validate your findings, decision, buy, joy with the pride that You found what is best for You and not had a salesman Tell you what you want.


I've found timber matching to be nearly impossible in TV driven setup even with the same tweeter. But getting as close as you can is definitely appropriate. Still if your LR speakers are of sufficient quality and you build a quality C channel it is normally a non-issue.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

GranteedEV said:


> spend the next 5 years tweaking only to ultimately realize that it just won't work.


I realize some folks prefer the fabrication portion of Speaker Engineering, but not all of us do. An engineer will probably have more fun doing the entire process on a speaker. For me building someone else's design is too quick because it normally takes a weekend to complete. Whereas building my own speaker from the ground up can take months to complete. I've been working off and on the 3-ways for over a year and the project has reduced daily stress and lifted my spirits. I have seen this response in numerous posts on several audio sites from several people and I honestly am not a fan of building kit designs unless you are an avid woodworker who simply wants to cut wood. You can normally purchase excellent quality speakers for the price of most kits. So don't do this just to get a great speaker. Do it for fun. Subs are very cost effective and simple. Speakers are not cost effective builds. They are purely for fun.

Engineering a speaker is not difficult if it were there would be very few speaker companies. Making a great one takes time, but do you really want a project that takes only a weekend? I certainly find no joy in a quick project. 

My two cents.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

lsiberian said:


> I realize some folks prefer the fabrication portion of Speaker Engineering, but not all of us do. An engineer will probably have more fun doing the entire process on a speaker. For me building someone else's design is too quick because it normally takes a weekend to complete. Whereas building my own speaker from the ground up can take months to complete. I've been working off and on the 3-ways for over a year and the project has reduced daily stress and lifted my spirits. I have seen this response in numerous posts on several audio sites from several people and I honestly am not a fan of building kit designs unless you are an avid woodworker who simply wants to cut wood. You can normally purchase excellent quality speakers for the price of most kits. So don't do this just to get a great speaker. Do it for fun. Subs are very cost effective and simple. Speakers are not cost effective builds. They are purely for fun.
> 
> Engineering a speaker is not difficult if it were there would be very few speaker companies. Making a great one takes time, but do you really want a project that takes only a weekend? I certainly find no joy in a quick project.


You're fooling yourself if you think someone with no experience can just jump in, punch a few numbers into a program and expect to make even a half decent speaker - there's subwoofers for that. 

If a project takes only a weekend, it serves as a perfectly fine learning experience. Making a decent speaker requires more investment than that. It's not just picking a bunch of drivers and then expecting them to work together. It takes the right equipment, lots of patience, and proper understanding. It's absurd to assume any given person on a message board has all three of those. That's not to say that those things _can't_ be obtained, which they certainly can. Look at yourself compared to when you were first starting out.. surely there's much you've learned and bought as time has gone by. 

I've never told anyone they should never design their own speaker. However I feel anyone interested in speaker building should not just pick a bunch of drivers and expect things to work out... it's a complete gamble. A good place to start is a kit. Otherwise they should first spend all their money on some tools and books before they even bother with any drivers. I can buy the raw parts for anything out there. But if I want to put it all together, i have to do the research necessary. Otherwise i may be trying to put a square peg in a round hole for the next 5 years. It's silly to assume most are willing to do the research necessary immediately. I don't feel right throwing someone to the dogs and expecting them to work it out. It's a gradual process. 

Speaker design is not easy. It's not extremely difficult, but it's not easy. you claim



> it were there would be very few speaker companies


yet then why is it that good DIY builders bother with complete crossover overhauls for manufactured speakers?

http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=RTi28.html
http://www.zaphaudio.com/Insignia.html
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JBL_L100.htm

and countless others on DIY forums everywhere. Look at how much you can improve an entry level infinity primus tower with box and crossover mods. And infinity is a speaker company that knows speaker design... as their top of the line speaker (Revel Salon2) may be among the best speakers ever made. The commercial speaker world is inherently flawed. Are there still good speaker companies out there? Sure. But even the better ones still are about as mysterious as it gets. For example my EMP e55tis are nice speakers and IMO a crazy bang for buck. However they still cheaped out.... used electrolytic caps / iron core inductors on the bass/bandpass crossover... Do I blame them? no. But for the same amount of money could I have build something more cost effective? *Definitely*. 

Fact is there's a lot more transparency in the DIY community. DIYers _want_ to make good speakers, businesses often don't care. Even extremely good speakers like end up with huge design flaws (IE some B&W 800 series speakers require ridiculous amplification because of low impedance and steep phase angles). in DIY speaker design we have a lot more control over that - but only if what we're doing is being done properly. 

It takes a lot of time, patience, equipment investment, and information investment to do it right. Only some are willing to do all of that. Perhaps you are. But the average person just wants to have some fun and reap the rewards. If you want to guide someone towards design of a good speaker, don't guide them to online crossover calculators. Those are nice things but if they really want to do it right that have to know every step of the way what they're doing and why. Not just assume a program will do it for them. Are the programs helpful? Definitely. But then what's the difference between having a program design for you or a skilled person, probably using a better program doing the same thing? If you don't understand what the program is doing then it's not worth it.


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## 1Michael (Nov 2, 2006)

lsiberian said:


> Speakers are not cost effective builds.


Mine were.



lsiberian said:


> Engineering a speaker is not difficult if it were there would be very few speaker companies.


So the number of speaker manufactures is directly proportional to the difficulty of engineering a speaker:rolleyesno:
There is a lot more to designing a quality Xover than picking some cool looking drivers and punching some numbers in an Excel sheet. At least for those of us that can tell the difference between realistic sound reproduction, and the trash that is vomited out by certain mass marketed speaker manufactures, and individuals that think Xover designing is so easy.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

GranteedEV said:


> You're fooling yourself if you think someone with no experience can just jump in, punch a few numbers into a program and expect to make even a half decent speaker - there's subwoofers for that.


I've never said it was that simple I just said part of the fun of DIY Audio is designing your own speakers. Designing good speakers isn't super hard. It requires patience experimentation and mentorship, but that is why we have these forums to help folks wanting to design their own speakers. If someone wants to build a kit more power to them, but it's not my cup of tea. I know you love kits and are a proponent of using them. I'm cool with that. It's just not my own preference.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

buggers said:


> Mine were.
> 
> 
> So the number of speaker manufactures is directly proportional to the difficulty of engineering a speaker:rolleyesno:
> There is a lot more to designing a quality Xover than picking some cool looking drivers and punching some numbers in an Excel sheet. At least for those of us that can tell the difference between realistic sound reproduction, and the trash that is vomited out by certain mass marketed speaker manufactures, and individuals that think Xover designing is so easy.


It can be cost effective especially if you have the tools, but cost savings is not my motivation for the hobby. Nor has it been cheaper than buying and modding a pre-existing design would be for me. Like the Primus towers. I realize for someone with your experience it certainly would be. But I have seen a lot of folks spend a fortune on builds. I think my viewpoint is not captured in the second paragraph. How does a year long project constitute simply throwing drivers in a spreadsheet and picking some cool looking drivers. My point is that some folks would really enjoy starting from scratch. 

It's my two cents you're free to disagree with it.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Justin, I think if you're set on building your own speakers it will be a lot easier to build an existing design, and they will probably sound better in the end. If you chose an LCR type to build, you can use one for each front speaker, as well as any surrounds you need and they will all look and sound (very close to) the same. 

The other way to approach it is to find a design you like for the surrounds, build and enjoy them, and then someday later you can build fronts to match. This way you don't have to buy/build everything at once when you already have some working speakers.

Takle a look at my rear surround project in my sig. It was an established design but I still got to have the fun of building it myself, and I am happy with the result.


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## 1Michael (Nov 2, 2006)

Owen, 3 of your links don't work:crying:


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