# Focal vs Martin Logan, who knew?



## grapenuts

I went to Tweeter today to audition the Chorus 826V vs. the 918CLA. When I arrived I sat in the chair and handed over my cd collection to the rep and asked him to switch through and replay songs. Unfortunately they only had Receivers on hand and no separates, so I knew I would be in for disappointment from the get go.
Less detail and more coloration was the venue of the day, but with all things being equal, here is what I thought.
First, note that everything was being played through a Pioneer Elite Universal connected to a Yamaha RX-V3800. Not the best combo, but it's what I had to work with.

First the 826V. I had High hopes for this speaker and unfortunately, I wasn't pleased at all by what I was hearing. It was very muddy and colored around the upper mid range and the highs seemed to roll off at reference listening levels. This surprised me, as I have always known JM Labs to offer excellent mids and highs. After the first song was over I asked the rep to pull out the 918CLAs from the pack and listened again.

918CLA: Although physically a bit smaller, the soundstage was clearly larger and much more articulate than the 826V. But at 3995 compared to 2395, it wasn't much of a surprise. The tweeters were also more of what I had come to expect from FOCAL, as Sara McLaughlin sang beautifully through the 918s. Then I had an unexpected wrench thrown into the works. 
The rep asked if I had heard the Martin logans that ran in the same price range. I hadn't so he switched it over and replayed the previous song. it was head and shoulders above both sets of speakers. My wife, who up till this point was ignoring everything and swiveling around in the chair, perked up and turned to face the sound stage. immediately she asked which speakers were playing and said she really liked the look of the speakers. She also thought Sara sounded more natural and lifelike. I also noticed a huge jump in transparency and it felt as if the speakers were in my acoustically treated theater with the separates powering them. I couldn't believe the little yammy was making the martin logans sing like that! Amazing air and detail and the soundstage was enormous. I am now at a loss and unsure what to look into further. The martin logans were the Vista model and it's supposed to be their entry level speaker? Crazy! they were priced at 3695 as opposed to the 918s 4K price tag. However, the rep informed me that the 918s were discontinued, and that he would give me the floor models for 2500. I am still leaning toward the Martin Logans to replace my infinity IL 60s. The Focals just didn't sound better. But I do realize that it's an unfair comparison as my IL's enjoy a room designed for sound and clean power. I need a bit of help here. do the Chorus 836V sound much better than the 826V? and does the 928 sound much better than the 918? 
I just can't believe I was floored by an entry level electrostat! My neighbor uses the Electra 926 powered by the Halo A52 and they sound great, but the 918/826 just didn't seem to be there.
What do you all think?

Adam


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## Sonnie

I'm not surprised in the least. I've heard a lot of speakers in my lifetime, none have come close to my Ascent i's. They are that good.

Actually the Source and Purity are their entry level speakers. The Vistas are a step up. Their are several used pairs of Vantages on Audiogon if you want to step up another notch and stay under $4K.

Welcome to the Shack!


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Great comparision there, Adam, and welcome to the Forum. 

Just a suggestion, would you mind editing your post and identifying who makes these 918, 826, 2395 etc, for those of us who can’t keep up with the model numbers of the dozens of speaker manufactures on the market? :gah: Sure would help us out. 

So – you gonna get a Yamaha receiver? - 

Regards,
Wayne


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## Sonnie

He identifies the Martin Logan, so the others would have to be Focal since the title of his thread is Focal vs. Martin Logan. :whistling:


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## grapenuts

LOL, Thanks Sonnie, Good to be here. They are the JM Labs Profile series 918 and the JM Labs Chorus 826V speakers. I am currently doing some research on the MLs and see if there are some nice used models on Agon for the price of the Vistas. I saw the Requests and the Ascent I s. What is the differnece between the Ascent and Ascent I, and is the Request a step up from that?
Hard to follow the chronology of these speakers.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Sonnie said:


> He identifies the Martin Logan, so the others would have to be Focal since the title of his thread is Focal vs. Martin Logan. :whistling:


Yeah, I thought that was the case, too, until I read this...



grapenuts said:


> This surprised me, as I have always known *JM Labs* to offer excellent mids and highs.


:huh: :gah:

Regards,
Wayne


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## Sonnie

The Ascent i is suppose to be a significant improvement over the older Ascent, but the exact improvements I am not aware of. I believe the Requests are older than the Ascents. I could have purchased the Vistas and/or the Vantages when I purchased the Ascent i's, but from what I was reading on the Ascent i's, they were one of the best ML has built for the money and I was getting a fairly good deal on them to boot. After I purchased them I started looking for a center ML. I called quite a few dealers and was telling them that I had Ascent i's and I had several dealers tell me that the Ascent i's were one of their favorites outside of the Odyssey, Prodigy and Summits, which are all the very top end models, with the Summits being the most recent top model.

EDIT: I meant to ad that a lot of the differences between these models have to do more with the woofer section than the panels. Not that there is no difference in panels, but I've read about more differences in the low end that the mid to upper end. Most all of them are crossed over around 450Hz.


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## Sonnie

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Yeah, I thought that was the case, too, until I read this...
> 
> 
> 
> grapenuts said:
> 
> 
> 
> This surprised me, as I have always known *JM Labs* to offer excellent mids and highs.
> 
> 
> 
> :huh: :gah:
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne
Click to expand...


Focal-JMlab is the speaker company. :T


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## grapenuts

Sonny,
Thanks for the insight on the MLs. I had very little knowledge about them up until this evening. They have definitely peaked my interest and their are a few Ascent and Ascent I listings currently. I may have to pull the trigger! 

Wayne, just incase anyone else is wondering why I listed what looks like two different companies in the thread; JM Labs was an independent company that was picked up by FOCAL (french company that hand builds all of their speakers AND drivers!) They are currently called FOCAL or sometimes you see them listed as FOCAL JM-Labs. The older Electra 926/936 line I was referring to was from the older JM lab era. Fantastic speakers. But I think with proper amplification the MLs would be extremely tough to beat :bigsmile:


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## Sonnie

Even with my Denon receiver the ML's sounded better than anything I'd ever heard, but the Anthem MCA-50 did improve them over the Denon at higher volumes.


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## jerome

grapenuts said:


> But I think with proper amplification the MLs would be extremely tough to beat


Indeed :bigsmile:

Electrostats sound different than conventional speakers. I own a pair of Vista and heard many other speakers before buying but when back to them every time. Paired with the right pre/power amplifier(s), they can be very hard to beat.
I recommend that you buy speakers with the XStat panel (XStat), since they are said to increase the sweet spot area and sound better than the non-XStat panels (I have to admit that I haven't heard non-XStat panels so I only relay what I have read in forums).

I heard to Focal 1027Be, liked them a lot but still went back to Vista.

Imaging, sound stage size and 3-D are wonderful with ML :clap:
But I would not recommend them if you like to play loud music like techno, rock, hard-rock, metal, etc. Or classical. They sound best for everything else. You can play loud but that's not what they do best.
The sweet spot area *may* be reduced compared to other speakers but it's just that you will have to work a bit more with speaker placement and room acoustic.

If I were you, I would forget about the Focal and jump straight to ML :yay:


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## grapenuts

I typically like to listen either a bit below, or a bit above reference level, which is 70db in my Theater. Would they still shine at those levels? I must admit that this is the first time in a long time I have been excited at the proposal to replace the IL60s and C36 center. In my room, and paired with my MMC-1 and IPS-1 Amp, I am finding them VERY difficult to beat. But the MLs sounded as sweet with a RX-V3800 receiver! my ILs sounded muddy and bright with my Yammy RX-V2500. The rockin processing abilities from the MMC-1 (uses the same chip as Lexicon MC12B) and Clean power from the IPS-1 brought them to life:T


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## jerome

grapenuts said:


> I typically like to listen either a bit below, or a bit above reference level, which is 70db in my Theater. Would they still shine at those levels?


Yes, if you match them with the correct kind of amplifier (those who do not need to play loud to give their best). Lots of them do.
70db is not very loud so there's no problems here. But ML speakers also like to rock you know :whistling:




grapenuts said:


> But the MLs sounded as sweet with a RX-V3800 receiver! my ILs sounded muddy and bright with my Yammy RX-V2500


I haven't heard the RX-V2500 with MLs but the new Yamaha receivers are better than those of the older generation. So you should not compare ML+3800 and IL+2500. If you really want to compare your speakers to the MLs then do an A/B test with the exact same setup.
Anyway, if you're going to get a very good pair of ML then I would strongly recommend you to budget for a separate 2-channel amplifier that can handle difficult loads like ML speakers(or even better, a integrated amplifier). You don't need to buy it know but you will really need it once you hear the difference a good amplifier makes :jiggy:


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## grapenuts

Jerome,
The IPS-1 is a Class H amp with 7 separate internal amps with 7 separate toroidal transformers that produce 150WPC X 7. It is a fantastic amp and is completely stable down to 2 ohms. It shouldn't be a problem pushing even the most difficult of speakers. My infinity IL60s are pretty innificient at 86db, and the IPS makes them sing at even very low spl levels. Detail is phenomenal.I know a lot of that is due to the MMC-1 proccessor as well. I may pick up two 500 watt monos to power the MLs if I decide to go that route. I see a pair of Preludes I have my eye on as well at a great price. One quick general question though - Are the Ascent I as good as the Newer Vistas with the xstat? If so, there are some good deals to be had on the Ascent Is


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## Sonnie

According to a few dealers I spoke with who have heard both, they claim the Ascent i's are actually better than the Vista or Vantage. They both have 30 degree dispersion with the Ascent i's being 13" wide and the Vista being 10.7" wide. It would make sense that with the same dispersion, the wider panel would create a wider sweet spot. The Ascent i's are also about a foot taller, 20 lbs heavier... extend to 35Hz while the Vista's extend only to 43Hz. I think the Vantage might be closer in comparison as far as extension.


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## grapenuts

Sonnie, Hopefully you are still lurking around the forum while watching the game. I have an opportunity to purchase Ascents that have the 'I' drivers installed for 1800. The seller has sold to me in the past and would rather deal with me. he is also throwing in two RABOS kits for my ILs for free (I don't need them, but hey) I also have an opportunity to purchase Oddessy's for 1900 from an unknown seller. Would you go for the Ascents with the I drivers? or the Oddessy's?


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## Sonnie

Actually I was in nap mode.

No question about it, I'd buy those Odysseys... provided they are in good condition. $1900 sounds awfully cheap... really too cheap. I would want to see pictures.


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## grapenuts

Just checked. They are already sold. I lose on that one. But how about the Ascent with the replacement "I" woofers installed? 1800 sound good or get the straight up Ascent I for 2300?


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## Sonnie

I would try to research the difference between the Ascent and Ascent i's more to see if the woofer is the main difference. Do the Ascents have the 30 degree dispersion of the i's? I'm not sure. Also see if you can find out the age of each, which might help make a difference. $2300 seems a tad high, but it they are 9/10, I might make an offer on those. Will the seller include shipping for that price? Things to consider.

If I didn't have to leave I would help you try to research it, but I've got to go and won't be back until 9-10pm. :huh:


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## grapenuts

No worries Sonny. I realize I am leaning on your advice here. I did find a spec sheet for the original Ascents: 30 Degree dispersion. All good. These are 3.5 yrs old with 1.5 yr left on the warranty. Looks like a decent deal at 1800


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## Funkmonkey

I listened to the Purity's the other day and I thought they sounded great. Intro model or not they had a nice full sound to them. I am sure that the sound gets even better as you move up through their line (and spend more money). If I had the space for them the Martin Logan's would be very high on my list. As it stands now the "Source" are high on my list, because of their smaller size and price...


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## grapenuts

yeah, I am definitely impressed. Just trying to secure either infinity intermezzo 4.1s for a ridiculous price, or a pair of Ascents. Either way it should be a great upgrade from the IL 60s!


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## Sonnie

With the age of those Ascents... I think I would go with them for $1800, especially since you have had previous experience with the seller.


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## grapenuts

Shipping is 268 which would bring it to 2068. Again, they're the Ascents with the woofers replaced with the "I" woofers. I may try to make a deal for 1950 shipped. I'm guessing that should be about right for pricing. 
Edit: they also include the original packaging, the RABOS kits for the IL 60s, and the ESL Spikes. Not a bad combo.


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## Sonnie

Call your local UPS Store and see if they offer freight shipping. My local UPS Store offers freight shipping via Yellow Freight and it's a lot cheaper than if I call myself. Get a quote for business to business delivery (residence ads $65) and offer to help load and unload. I've been researching quite a bit here lately for shipping my SVS subs which weigh 160 lbs each. From here (Alabama) to Texas was only $154 and from Alabama to Seattle, Washington... all the way across the U.S. was only $220.


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## grapenuts

I made an offer, we'll see what happens. I don't have to go into the office today, so It looks like I'll force the wife to go check out Cloverfield with me =) and just refresh my email every so often to see what the outcome is. Thanks again Sonny for the assistance. If I end up with these, I'll be looking to you for your placement. I'll have to post pics of my theater here this week.
Adam


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## grapenuts

Excellent! My offer was accepted and looks like I'll have these bad boys to play with at the end of the week!


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## Sonnie

Congrats! I can't wait to hear your thoughts on them.


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## Warpdrv

Curious Sonnie, what other ML's are you using for theater, as they only offer a few different surround type speakers to match yours...


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## Sonnie

I have the Motif center and I kept my Boston VRX surrounds. If I can ever find a set of Fresco's for the surrounds for a reasonable price, I might pick them up, but for now the Boston's are working fine.


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## grapenuts

is the Cinema I a good center for the Ascents? Or should I go for the Theater I at a much higher price?


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## Sonnie

I think the Cinema i is fine. I tried my best to buy one before buying the Motif, but never could land one and ended up getting a good deal on the Motif for a few hundred more than a used Cinema i.


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## Guest

grapenuts said:


> is the Cinema I a good center for the Ascents? Or should I go for the Theater I at a much higher price?


Theater without a doubt as it is head and shoulders above the Cinema - but again you also have to pay a lot more too. Look for one used as they go for $1500 - $1800


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## conchyjoe7

To get back a little to the OP, while he seems to have had a bad experience with Focal, and there's no question as to the excellence of ML, I think that bad experience with dull highs etc., must have been an anomalie. I say that, as it is common knowledge that Wilson Audio sources it's tweeters from Focal and that's not exactly a chopped liver compliment. Wilson Audio is without question the largest and probably (although not by any means everyone) the most respected high end speaker manufacturer in the world. I know one thing: Nothing, and I do mean nothing I have ever heard (of course there's much I haven't heard, e.g. Wilson's own $150K models, MBL, and Kharma) floats my boat like the Wilson Watt/Puppy combo...The most drop dead gorgeous sound IMHO to come out of speakers :T
Cheers,
Konky.


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## grapenuts

Look, I definitely do NOT want this to turn into a flame thread. Konky, I really have had good experience with Focal. The electra 926s sound great, and please note that I did find the Profiles quite pleasing to my ear. The MLs, at a the same price point (400 less actually) just really sang to me. Even with the Yammie receiver it caught my wife's ear. Sometimes, the non audiophile ear is better than the audiophile wannabe (me) ear. This could have been a thousand things, including the placement of the profiles, the fact that they were being driven by a receiver, really almost anything. But to me, and more importantly, my wife, the MLs just sounded beautiful and had a very open emmersive sound stage.
Adam


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## Sonnie

dtb300 said:


> Theater without a doubt as it is head and shoulders above the Cinema - but again you also have to pay a lot more too. Look for one used as they go for $1500 - $1800


Here's a Stage for $1750! This is ML's best current center.


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## grapenuts

LOL, I was just looking at that when you posted! I actually saw a theater I for a good price as well and have sent an email to the seller. we'll see what happens. If not, the stage is lookin like a steal!


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## Sonnie

Yeah... I saw that Theater i at $1475 after I posted the above and went back looking. I was about to edit my post and add it as well, but you saw it.

I wonder if the Stage might be better with the more modern technology? I haven't researched it, but according to the guy selling the Theater i, it's the best ML ever made. :dontknow:


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## grapenuts

yeah, I have read some reviews over at Martinlogan owners and they definitely say that the stage is a step up from the theater, but the theater i is probably better suited to the Ascent i's. They also state that the Theater I is an amazing center and way above the cinema i. I have sent emails to all three sellers and we'll see what happens. This is turning into an expensive week for me!


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## Sonnie

Yeah... don't feel bad. The week I purchased my Ascent i's I ended up spending quite a bit myself after adding the Motif center. But hey... it is by far the absolute BEST money I have EVER spent on my home theater or audio gear... BAR NONE! :T


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## grapenuts

One of the sellers is contacting me today regarding the Stage for 1750. I am still waiting on the Theater I and other Stage seller. looks to me that I can't lose either way. the xstat in the stage is great, but will it blend well with the Ascent I's? I know the Theater i will for sure.


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## jerome

I don't want to play the devil here but there are many other good (better?) choices for a center speaker. You don't *need* to buy a Martin Logan center.


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## Sonnie

I'm one of those that firmly believe in having the same type of speaker across the front three for seamless tonal blending. Having that ML sound with my center complimenting my ML fronts is a must for me... not sure how it could get much better than it is. I know I don't want to mess with it. 



> One of the sellers is contacting me today regarding the Stage for 1750. I am still waiting on the Theater I and other Stage seller. looks to me that I can't lose either way. the xstat in the stage is great, but will it blend well with the Ascent I's? I know the Theater i will for sure.


Yeah... I think the xstat will only help you... especially for the center. Here's an excerpt from ML on the xstat technology:

_Advanced MicroPerf stator technology dramatically increases the sound-producing area of MartinLogan's latest-generation CLS™ electrostatic transducer. This increase in effective radiating area translates to higher efficiency and an even more effortless, unlimited dynamic presentation._


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## Guest

Sonnie said:


> Here's a Stage for $1750! This is ML's best current center.


It is their top of the line center, but there are folks who still prefer the sound of the Theater. One thing about the Stage is it has the new Micro-Perf technology and panel coatings that the new models have (Vista, Vantage, Summit, etc.) so the sound of the Stage "should" match up better to these models. If one owns an older model ML, then a Theater or Logos "should" be a better match.

But again all of this is subjective to the listener/owner and each should decide on their own.

In reply to the post of "other speakers" for Center's - I have been there, done that, and I have found the ML center with ML speakers creates a better overall stage reproduction across the fronts (for both MCH music and Movies). But if you cannot own a ML center, then one has to do what they have to do - ML centers are way overpriced IMO, so look for used. And not owning a ML center or ever hearing one, then one does not know what they are missing :bigsmile: and can run another center.

Dan


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## conchyjoe7

grapenuts said:


> Look, I definitely do NOT want this to turn into a flame thread.


Grapenuts...if you mistook my comments on Focal as some sort of flame; I apologize. I did NOT in any way mean it as such, it was merely to say that Focal's not exactly chopped liver is all...and you never said they were!
Cheers,
Konky.


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## thxgoon

Man, if you guys don't stop going on about how great the ML's are I might have to buy some!!! Wish I had $6500 for that set on Audiogon...

I also agree that having a tonally matched center speakers is important. Think of all of the sounds that the LCR speakers share in a typical soundtrack. Congrats on your new purchase! Do let us know what you think of them :bigsmile:


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## grapenuts

ok, the seller is saying 1800 shipped for the stage paypal included. 
Is this good ? I can also get a set of intermezzo 4.1s for 1750. what does everyone think....the intermezzos better than the Ascent I's or just so different you can't compare? I've already bought the Ascent I's but I would buy those too for that price!


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## grapenuts

Konky, no worries. I just didn't want anyone to think I was bashing Focal.


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## Sonnie

I don't think they are going to sound the same since one is dynamic and the other electrostatic, but since I've never heard the Infinity model, I cannot confirm my thoughts. :huh:

My Motif seems to blend very well with the Ascent i's. It's like my entire front wall, left to right, top to bottom, is one huge wall of sound.... a giant wall of speakers... and all the sounds come from where you expect them to come from.

Personally I believe the Stage would be fine and that sounds like one of the better prices I've seen on it.


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## grapenuts

Sonnie, I passed on the Intermezzos (I must be ******* crazy). I bought the Stage center today after speaking with the martin logan CS rep, so my front soundstage is complete. Looks like it's going to be an excellent start to my martin logan theater. My Ascents come in tomorrow! :yay:


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## Sonnie

I purchased a pair of those Fresco's from the same guy... Bob. I'm going to use them for my surrounds. I probably didn't need them, but I wanted ML's all around and a lot of ML owners are using them for surrounds and are happy. :huh:

Congrats on the Stage. I'm excited for you... and looking forward to hearing your impressions.


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## tc-60guy

Greetings Grapenuts, Electrostats are a pain in the fundament for a lot of reasons. They beam. They need a lot of room around them. They arc if you push them too hard. They get cranky if it's too humid or too dry and they can send lesser amps into a tizzy. But oh that glorious, shimmering, unboxxy midreage! No type of speaker I know of can match them. To hear a properly set up and fed electrostatic is to fall in love!


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## jerome

tc-60guy said:


> Greetings Grapenuts, Electrostats are a pain in the fundament for a lot of reasons. They beam. They need a lot of room around them. They arc if you push them too hard. They get cranky if it's too humid or too dry and they can send lesser amps into a tizzy.


Now you're going to make him think twice: Is there so many problems? Did I make a mistake in buying electrostats???

No, you will probably love them, as we do ......... :yay:

Congratulations for buying wonderful speakers :clap:


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## grapenuts

Yeah, Come on guys don't scare me like that!:unbelievable:
Rats sonnie, that was my next move and I saw they were gone when I got home =)
Oh well, I'll get these set up and then get the hunt on for 4 surrounds. The infinity Beta ES250 dipoles and Interlude IL10 surrounds sound great, but probably not with electrostats taking charge at the front. I get them today so we'll see how long it takes me to set them up.


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## Sonnie

Yep... we are very strict on language and block some euphemisms. 

He had two pair of Fresco's... I only bought one pair. Looks like he sold everything though. Hmmm... \

There are a pair of Script i's for $1100... you may as well go ahead and do it... you know you want to. If my room wasn't so small I would have rather had Script i's, but there is no way to get them up high enough in my room so that they would not be right in the ear of the back row listener, which is occasionally me. :sarcastic:

Actually I have been very pleased with my Boston Acoustic VRX surrounds, but I've got this mentality thing going on that I want to be able to say I got ML's all around. :coocoo: Hey... the ML's will do that to you.


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## Sonnie

Just posted... these Fresco's will not last long at $800.


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## tc-60guy

Sorry Grapenuts, In no way was I trying to scare you off. Martin Logans are on my short list of the greatest speakers around and have been for decades! Like I said, listening to stats is like a little piece of heaven. Go for it!


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## grapenuts

I got em I got em!:yay: the boxes are HUGE at 70" high!
I just got them unpacked...I'm going back down to just hook them up in the old speaker position. and get a quick initial listen. Will have to Tweak Sunday. I'm all over the surrounds. I need the full ML experience!


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## jerome

grapenuts said:


> I got em I got em!:yay: the boxes are HUGE at 70" high!
> I just got them unpacked...I'm going back down to just hook them up in the old speaker position. and get a quick initial listen. Will have to Tweak Sunday. I'm all over the surrounds. I need the full ML experience!


Yeah, you're a lucky guy now! :clap:

Remember that you probably need to spend quite a lot of time to get the most of them. But it's worth it! :T


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## grapenuts

Hey Jerome,
I'm sure I will have to move them back and forth and side to side a bit, but I'm already afraid to, as the position I put them in (42" from back wall, 24" from side wall at the mid of panel and 15" from side wall at the outside back corner of the cabinet to toe it in ever so slightly) sounds really great already. I think I'm going to play with the -3 db setting vs the Flat setting first. Imaging is already perfect, as the vocals are dead center of the front sound stage and has some depth, and the edges of the imaging are past the speakers themselves and envelope the entire room as if the surrounds were outputing sound. The Stage Center will be here on Wed and I'm anxiously awaiting that to see how movies fair before I dive into the ML surrounds. I will say this, even in my media room, which is 13.5 X 23.8 the MLs impose a serious presence. But they certainly are beautiful. They are paired with two Velodyne SPL-1500Rs to do the low work. I'm hooked!


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## jerome

grapenuts said:


> Imaging is already perfect, as the vocals are dead center of the front sound stage...


Vocals right in the center doesn't mean that the imaging is perfect. If the initial song mixing is such that the singer is not placed at the center of the sound stage then you have incorrectly calibrated your speakers without knowing it.
I'm *not* saying that you have incorrectly calibrated your speakers but be aware that not all songs have their vocal(s) right in the center of the sound stage. That's where knowing how the song stage should be helps a lot.

I have a few simple tracks that I used to (re-)calibrate my system. They include both 2D and 3D songs. Really useful. Let me know if that would be of interest.

If you have the time to take a few pictures, that would be really great to see them :bigsmile:


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## Sonnie

One of my favorite sources for calibrating is the Eagles HD-DVD. They are so spread out across the stage and you have so many different lead singers.


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## grapenuts

Jerome.Don't worry, I didn't take that the wrong way. I actually had a few cds in that I knew were off center, i.e. Jewel "This way" . There is a track where she starts at the left side of the sound stage, and moves to the center. The MLs tracked well. But certainly I need to tweak these bad boys and figure out where the best positioning is. I don't want to take any pics yet, the Stage isn't in, and I have two amps I am toying with placing in the front sound stage. That wouldn't be until March though. I will post a few pics of the new trio when I receive the stage on Wed...unless everyone wants to see the MLs paired with an infinity interlude C36 center =)


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## grapenuts

I am in Audio Heaven! Seriously, if I didn't have to go into DC tonight to meet up with some folks for dinner and the lounge, I would be down there all day. They are huge, beautiful works of art:flex: I followed Jim Powers method of speaker toe in for the best imaging in your seating position and wow what an unbelievable result. The MLs track multiple instruments perfectly in Classical music. You really hear where each seat was in the recording. So much more distinguishable than on my Infinity IL 60s. I have the ETC spikes, but am not going to de-couple them from the floor with those just yet. I am considering ordering granite slabs to size and then placing the MLs on those and using the spikes at that time. What do you think Sonnie? Let me know what the Frescos are like once you receive them. I don't think I have the vertical headroom needed for the Scripts because of where my speaker cable exits the wall. it's too high. If the Fresco's sound good, I'll go with those in lieu of messing with the speaker cable to make room for the Scripts.


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## Sonnie

I got my PC-Ultra SVS subs setup today and was able to move my ML's back about 8-10" and move them inward about 6". I used the flashlight reflection method for toeing my in. The listening position didn't really change that I could notice, but the off axis listening position improved drastically. I told Rodny while we were listening to the Eagles that the off center seat actually sounded pretty good. 

I don't even use my spikes... my Ascent i's sit flat on the carpet. I've never been a big fan of spikes since the scientists at Velodyne told me they were pretty much useless and if anything would adversely effect the bass response of a speaker. :huh:


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## grapenuts

Sonnie, what are your speaker distance from walls measurements? I have as follows and it sounds phenomenal at the primary two center listening positions at 13ft and 18ft back respectively, but off axis seats are still very localized to the nearest speaker.
My measurements are 35 5/8 " from rear wall to inside front corner at the bottom of the speaker, 16" from side wall to front outside bottom corner, and 14 3/4" from side wall to back of the woofer enclosure. Used the flashlight method using about 2- 2 1/2" from the light bar to the side of the panel.
BTW...my Center won't be here until Thurs:hissyfit: This is going to be a long week, but good so that I can play with the Ascents


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## Sonnie

I haven't actually measured them but they sound pretty close to the same as yours, other than I think I may have mine toed in slightly more. When listening to the Eagles in stereo the localization was more evident, but in 5.1, off axis seating was very good IMO. I was very pleased and could hardly tell a difference in localization between any of the other speakers that have ever been in my system.


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## grapenuts

I would definitely say that off axis listening was still very good as far as sonically, just not as far as imaging was concerned. But I was onlly listening in Stereo. Make sure to let me know how those frescos sound when you get them hooked up!


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## Sonnie

I will... and I'll measure those distances as well.


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## grapenuts

Wow, it was like christmas today all over again. The Stage came in a day early :yay:


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## jerome

Now we really need to see some pictures :hissyfit:


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## grapenuts

I took a few but man my digi camera is on the fritz...they aren't very good. might have to wait till I find out what the deal is with this thing.


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## grapenuts

i put a few pics in the "martin logan in....my house" thread


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