# 2 PB13U or 2 SEALED DIY'S



## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

I own a pb13 at the moment but after hearing someone's dual 15inch sealed diy subs, I realised my pb13 does not have the upper bass punch that sealed subs have.

Someone explained to me that this is the nature of sealed subs, the pb13 is designed for high spl at lower frequencies. By using the power in this way it looses the more tighter bass details and chest thumping bass. A sealed sub does this kind of upper bass chest thumping bass better but at the cost of the spl at lower frequencies, so it's one or the other.

My agenda is purely movies so low frequencies are very important to me, so I have been advised that to achieve high spl at low levels but still having the upper bass punch 2 sealed diys with large driver like 15's or 18's are the best way to.

I would like to have a go at this but I'm useless at diy so I was wondering, would adding a second pb13u give me that missing upper bass punch I require or would it just add more power to the lower end causing potential overkill. I am really on peoples advice/experience as I cannot demo a dual setup as svs are not in the UK at the moment.

I would love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks in advance.

Martin.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi Martin,

Fancy seeing you on here. I see you live in Essex. I live in Sittingbourne so not far away at all mate.

Feel free to pop down if you want to have a demo off my diy subs and have a chat.

cheers

Graham


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## samhain (Feb 19, 2012)

Hi :T

2 PB13's will smooth your in room response but will perform in the areas that are already there, it won't fill in the blanks for you. I am interested in your comment about purely movies, that being the case then mid range chest thumping bass becomes less important...doesn't it?? The PB13 U is good enough in that area especially if you really do crave the bottom end..


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## samhain (Feb 19, 2012)

gperkins_1973 said:


> Hi Martin,
> 
> Fancy seeing you on here. I see you live in Essex. I live in Sittingbourne so not far away at all mate.
> 
> ...


Lucky boy, I am not as close but that would be a great idea...


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## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

If you want to consider other commercial subs, I would highly recommend a Seaton Submersive HP. Dual opposed sealed configuration - that might give the missing thump you're looking for. Certainly did for me.

That being said, the SVS subs are great performers -and there are lots of DIY options.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

As I said I have had the PB13 ultra. For the same cost I bought two FI Q18 drivers and and EP4000 and built two fantastic subs and have never looked back.


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## samhain (Feb 19, 2012)

gperkins_1973 said:


> As I said I have had the PB13 ultra. For the same cost I bought two FI Q18 drivers and and EP4000 and built two fantastic subs and have never looked back.


As craigsub has stated in my sealed duty thread it would need two DD18+ to match 1 TC 5400....that really is the mother of all drivers; don't really need to say much more...worth saving up for then


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

samhain said:


> Hi :T
> 
> 2 PB13's will smooth your in room response but will perform in the areas that are already there, it won't fill in the blanks for you. I am interested in your comment about purely movies, that being the case then mid range chest thumping bass becomes less important...doesn't it?? The PB13 U is good enough in that area especially if you really do crave the bottom end..


I thought that maybe the case :rolleyesno:

Well the punch I felt was in iron man 2 when he jumps out of the plane and accellarates, the bass was hitting me in the chest hard, the pb13 was more of a feel around the room, great but different. When I explained this to Moonfly who built the dual 15s he said that that is what the sealed subs do better and that is what I felt. I also remember watching Jurassic Park years ago on a focal profile sealed sub and the same thing was felt, pushing me into the chair, that sub only went down to 32hz :huh: I have got amazing room moving bass with the svs that feels a lot bigger but lacks those push you in the chair feelings. So it would appear that it is just as important with movies right?



gperkins_1973 said:


> Hi Martin,
> 
> Fancy seeing you on here. I see you live in Essex. I live in Sittingbourne so not far away at all mate.
> 
> ...


Thanks Graham, I may take you up on that :T What Subs have you got running then?



Zeitgeist said:


> If you want to consider other commercial subs, I would highly recommend a Seaton Submersive HP. Dual opposed sealed configuration - that might give the missing thump you're looking for. Certainly did for me.
> 
> That being said, the SVS subs are great performers -and there are lots of DIY options.


Nice idea but I would rather go down either the 2nd pb13u route or diy route. My brain couldn't take any more makes thrown into the mix, I'm indecisive enough as it is so I'm trying to keep things simple for my simple brain onder:

Martin


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

It's not necessarily true that a sealed sub will have more mid-bass punch than a ported design, it all depends on the design it-self. 

I had a pair of the older cylinder SVS CS-Ultra's which were tuned low and a pair of HSU TN1225's which are tuned to 25hz, both ported designs with 12" drivers. While the SVS shook the entire house it couldn't match the upper bass punch of the HSU's but they were both designed for different purposes. 

You should just keep the PB13 and add a HSU MBM or something similar. The Submersive suggestion is also a good idea. Not a lot of selection in the DIY driver market right now. If you just want to get the best and not look back than the TC Sounds LMS Ultra does just about everything well but it will cost ya.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

samhain said:


> As craigsub has stated in my sealed duty thread it would need two DD18+ to match 1 TC 5400....that really is the mother of all drivers; don't really need to say much more...worth saving up for then


Never had the DD18+ but it is not that far off from the HGS18 I had and yes, the LMS Ultra kicks the snot out of it:boxer:

I really wish I would have bought a pair of the TC Pro 5100's before the price increase. The mid-bass is even better than the LMS and not that far off in the low end if properly designed. 

I have owned a LOT of commercial and DIY subs but the LMS Ultra is the best all around sub.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

I agree a cracking driver but to get it to the UK it will cost around $1100 plus taxes etc...

And you will need some power to run it so a big amp too. Just depends on how deep your pockets are.

And remember ordering stuff from the States and get delivered to the UK, if you have any problems you will have to pay to have it shipped back out off your own pocket. 

Just something to think about. This was one off the things which concerned me when I was looking to import a commercial sub from the USA.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

With some of TC's QC problems in the past it's understandable why you wouldn't want to take a chance, I know I wouldn't.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Here in the UK we are very limited on driver choice. We have FI and Ascedant Audio. The Q18 here in the UK is £389 plus options which is quite expensive but having said that the distributor is not far away and you could even drive there if you wanted to.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

How about for car subs, the same choices? Do you have access to the 15" JBL W15gti sub that seems to be popular?


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## samhain (Feb 19, 2012)

The UK market is somewhat limited, no question about that. Two FI 18's would rock though


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Could not find the JBL's here in the UK at all. Some cheaper versions and I mean cheaper. LOL.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

I am sure from the responses that everyone agrees that adding another pb13u will not give me what I'm looking for, as good as the other suggestion are, which I appreciate :T

I will probably continue down the diy route. Maybe if the diy route doesn't work out then I may consider some of the suggestions you made. I love the pb13u's depths but the upper punch is important too and if it can never achieve that in movies then the cheapest route will be 2 diy fiq18 sealed subs and they should do the trick. If made correctly I should hopefully have the best of everything.


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## samhain (Feb 19, 2012)

marty1 said:


> I am sure from the responses that everyone agrees that adding another pb13u will not give me what I'm looking for, as good as the other suggestion are, which I appreciate :T
> 
> I will probably continue down the diy route. Maybe if the diy route doesn't work out then I may consider some of the suggestions you made. I love the pb13u's depths but the upper punch is important too and if it can never achieve that in movies then the cheapest route will be 2 diy fiq18 sealed subs and they should do the trick. If made correctly I should hopefully have the best of everything.


I have the SVS SB13+ and I love it for mid bass punch. I am hoping that a single fi 18 with my heavily engineered 13.5 inch driver will be a good combination.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

I'm sure that'll sound great :T


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

I think with the Q 18" it's best to order with the high qts option for sealed enclosures, at least that's what I remember Fi saying. At least it's something you might want to look into.

I think you have made a wise choice. Some might say that it's not a good idea to mix sealed subs with ported but I have done it many times before and it's not a problem.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Actually my intention was to sell the pb13 as i am hoping the dual 18s will be the full package, not to mention i wouldnt have any space left.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

I think you will be please with the pair of sealed 18's:T


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

sub_crazy said:


> I think you will be please with the pair of sealed 18's:T


Thanks 

I just hope I can keep that room wobble in the transformers somersault scene :dunno:


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## samhain (Feb 19, 2012)

From what we have gathered 2 18 inch sealed will give 115 db at 15hz so that is going tO absolutely pound


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

samhain said:


> From what we have gathered 2 18 inch sealed will give 115 db at 15hz so that is going tO absolutely pound


If that aint motivation I dunno what is :T


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## pbc (Sep 3, 2007)

How big is your room? My room is only 1700 cubes. I was very content with a single PB13 in that room tuned to 15hz. 

I built two dual opposed 15" subs (AV15H drivers) and with a QSCRMX-5050 amp they extend down to 8 - 10hz in the room now vs 13/14hz with the PB13, and offer a ton of punch.

Having said that, the PB13 is a LOT of subwoofer for my room and what I have now is just overkill (I still use the PB13 in sealed mode to fill in some FR holes).


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

pbc said:


> How big is your room? My room is only 1700 cubes. I was very content with a single PB13 in that room tuned to 15hz.
> 
> I built two dual opposed 15" subs (AV15H drivers) and with a QSCRMX-5050 amp they extend down to 8 - 10hz in the room now vs 13/14hz with the PB13, and offer a ton of punch.
> 
> Having said that, the PB13 is a LOT of subwoofer for my room and what I have now is just overkill (I still use the PB13 in sealed mode to fill in some FR holes).


Would that be a pair of sealed subs or do you mean a pair of push pull type designs?

My room is 18ft x 13ft x 8.5ft high, not sure how to work out cubes?

The pb13 is more than enough for my room but as I have been told, the upper bass punch is what the pb13u just doesn't do and the subtle details that the sealed subs do again is apparently another thing the pb13 does not. It's not the volume I am seeking, just more quality bass that I'm supposed to be missing?


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## pbc (Sep 3, 2007)

marty1 said:


> Would that be a pair of sealed subs or do you mean a pair of push pull type designs?
> 
> My room is 18ft x 13ft x 8.5ft high, not sure how to work out cubes?
> 
> The pb13 is more than enough for my room but as I have been told, the upper bass punch is what the pb13u just doesn't do and the subtle details that the sealed subs do again is apparently another thing the pb13 does not. It's not the volume I am seeking, just more quality bass that I'm supposed to be missing?


Two boxes, two drivers in each box, in a push pull design (dual opposed).

Your room is almost identical to mine. You'd certainly get more low end, and a bit more punch for sure in the top end from an SPL perspective. How much you'd notice that, is another story. I recently put my PB13 back into the front right position and set it up on its own to play some test material at -5db to reference. Can't say I really noticed the difference that much vs the dual, dual opposed setup. If the room was larger, the difference would likely stand out a lot more.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

pbc said:


> Two boxes, two drivers in each box, in a push pull design (dual opposed).
> 
> Your room is almost identical to mine. You'd certainly get more low end, and a bit more punch for sure in the top end from an SPL perspective. How much you'd notice that, is another story. I recently put my PB13 back into the front right position and set it up on its own to play some test material at -5db to reference. Can't say I really noticed the difference that much vs the dual, dual opposed setup. If the room was larger, the difference would likely stand out a lot more.


Not even the upper bass punch area?


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## pbc (Sep 3, 2007)

marty1 said:


> Not even the upper bass punch area?


Not a huge difference.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

pbc said:


> Not a huge difference.


That's interesting to know, I must admit I have been wondering, if I build these subs and finally sit down and listen, if the differences are only subtle I will be very disappointed. The pb13u energises the room immensly, more than I need. So it's not the volume I am seeking, or the extra power. It is just the upper bass punch and details that people have described to me that sealed subs are meant to have over the ported.

Is the dual driver meant to perform like a sealed sub in the areas I'm looking for?

If they are and there isn't much difference between a dual/dual setup and a single pb13u in our size room, other than volume, then I'm not sure that the diy route is essential for me right now. I'm not ruling it out completely yet as I am sure dual 18s will sound amazing but it's a massive project for my level of diy brain :blink: and now maybe not the right time.


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## pbc (Sep 3, 2007)

marty1 said:


> That's interesting to know, I must admit I have been wondering, if I build these subs and finally sit down and listen, if the differences are only subtle I will be very disappointed. The pb13u energises the room immensly, more than I need. So it's not the volume I am seeking, or the extra power. It is just the upper bass punch and details that people have described to me that sealed subs are meant to have over the ported.
> 
> Is the dual driver meant to perform like a sealed sub in the areas I'm looking for?
> 
> If they are and there isn't much difference between a dual/dual setup and a single pb13u in our size room, other than volume, then I'm not sure that the diy route is essential for me right now. I'm not ruling it out completely yet as I am sure dual 18s will sound amazing but it's a massive project for my level of diy brain :blink: and now maybe not the right time.


You're going to get an extra 3-6db of headroom per sub with the 18's, depending on size of box and amp power of course. How much of that will be used in your relatively small room is another story and that's all I'm saying. I.e., if you mostly listen at say -15 to -10 on the dial, you've likely got all the output you need. As you get closer to reference levels, you'll get less distortion with the duals.

You'll also get the benefits of smoother response that dual subs would give you. Have you posted the frequency Response in room of you PB Ultra? Here's mine. Pretty flat to 13/14 hertz. But it required me to use the room comp control on the ultra to tame the low end quite a bit as I had a huge hump near tune. Sealed subs work much better in my room, but I had to get used to "flatter" bass down low.


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## pbc (Sep 3, 2007)

Btw dual opposed units would put more emphasis IMO on the punch area. Go ahead and build the subs. I personally learned more about sealed subs, and subs in general during the build than I ever thought I'd know. It's a great experience and you won't be disappointed. Just saying in a room like mine, I didn't notice a night and day difference.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks :T

Like I said I haven't ruled it out yet and eventually I will give it a go for fun but to start paying out extra cash at the moment for what might not turn out to be night and day difference I may end up waiting a bit.

Here is my pb13 response and this is without smoothing, sub and mains together crossed at 80hz.


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## samhain (Feb 19, 2012)

I have went from the ported pb13 u to the sb13+ and the difference in mid range punch is night and day in my opinion


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Just build them. Two 18's over a single pb13 is really no contest. Model and build them right. A bit off EQ and you will be pleased as punch. You wont look back.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

samhain said:


> I have went from the ported pb13 u to the sb13+ and the difference in mid range punch is night and day in my opinion


Sadly I will never test that for myself now the sb13 is no longer available :rolleyesno:


To be honest svsound actually said that shouldn't be the case and that both subs have linear performance across the range and that the pb13u will have a higher spl advantage. They actally said the sb would be a step down but the only advantage to be had is if it was performing in a smaller room it would have less distortion giving you cleaner bass.

I'm not saying your wrong samhain, I'm merely quoting from svs. I am sure there is a night and day difference but I wonder if the room you are in plays a part in that?

Did you manage to get a response similar to mine in your room with the pb13, with ringing issues severly reduced with an eq device like the antimode?


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

I dont even know why you compare the sb13 to the pb13. You really need to be comparing the dual 18's to the single pb13. The best way would be to listen to my subs in ported and sealed alignements. That would give you a good idea on what to expect. As i have sais i have never looked back. Compared to the pb13 my q's are much cleaner and more effortless. You really shouldnt even need to think about it. At the end of the day further down the road you could add another pair of 18's and an amp but you would have way more than enough clean spl not to even worry with the fact you used to own a pb13.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

gperkins_1973 said:


> I dont even know why you compare the sb13 to the pb13.QUOTE]
> 
> I was responding to samhains claims, I pretty sure he brought it up as a reference to a chat we had previously when I was considering adding an sb13 to my pb13 to try and get the best of both worlds and also to state that in his experience the sealed version does have a night and day difference to the ported one, not minor.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Adding a single sb13 is the same cost as adding two sealed 18's.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

gperkins_1973 said:


> Adding a single sb13 is the same cost as adding two sealed 18's.


Yeah I know, it was an idea that I kind of went off of in the end for integration reasons, plus as you say for the costs I could build the diys.

I was trying to come up with contingency plans in case I bottled out of the builds or it went wrong in some way. I know you and another guy have offered to help me which I really appreciate:T

At the time I was offered help by Moonfly who I have a lot of respect for but he completely vanished and still hasn't returned, I hope he is ok as nobody I know of has heard from him :rolleyesno:


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Yeah I thought that too. But then he may be busy with other stuff. I could help you with building them no probs but you would have to come down to me and arrange to get them finished.

It's really quite simple. I really don't know what you are worrying about. I am the biggest bail out guy when it comes to diy and yet I have managed to build 3 complex subs on my own.

Don't threat about the build that can be sorted mate.

Just get the best result you can get.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

gperkins_1973 said:


> Yeah I thought that too. But then he may be busy with other stuff. I could help you with building them no probs but you would have to come down to me and arrange to get them finished.
> 
> It's really quite simple. I really don't know what you are worrying about. I am the biggest bail out guy when it comes to diy and yet I have managed to build 3 complex subs on my own.
> 
> ...


Thanks :T that's good to know.


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## samhain (Feb 19, 2012)

I am not comparing an sb13+ with a pb13+, it's irrelevant to me whether my room is having an effect on mid range punch or not, it's the same room I had the pb13 u in so I have compared based on the same room, they are different beasts and do different things end of story.

I am not surprised that svs would claim they are bOth exactly the same in the mid range, it's their product and they will do everything they can to speak positively about their products....I know I would if I were selling them


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

samhain said:


> I am not comparing an sb13+ with a pb13+, it's irrelevant to me whether my room is having an effect on mid range punch or not, it's the same room I had the pb13 u in so I have compared based on the same room, they are different beasts and do different things end of story.
> 
> I am not surprised that svs would claim they are bOth exactly the same in the mid range, it's their product and they will do everything they can to speak positively about their products....I know I would if I were selling them


That's a fair point but still they talked me out of buying an sb13 and said to stick with the pb13 so I don't fully understand the angle there. Anyway you obviously hear the difference and that's what counts :T


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## samhain (Feb 19, 2012)

One thing to remember, when I was going about thinking about changing my pb13 ultra I had already formed my own view without being influenced by others that the mid range on the pb13 was lacking, only when I started to research a replacement did I find a huge number of threads probably mainly on avs forum which said the same thig as I did. Then you also come along and say the same thing again, it could be that none of us are good enough to set up the PB13 to its ultimate mid bass performance but the fact remains that you are not alone when you say that mid bass is lacking.

I can't answer the svs advised you against the sb13 but again perhaps there is an element of product protection going on as well as a belief that the set up is not quite right.

There are basic laws of physics with a sealed and ported subwoofer and I can't believe the pb13 ultra is immune from those I.e they have different characteristics


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

samhain said:


> One thing to remember, when I was going about thinking about changing my pb13 ultra I had already formed my own view without being influenced by others that the mid range on the pb13 was lacking, only when I started to research a replacement did I find a huge number of threads probably mainly on avs forum which said the same thig as I did. Then you also come along and say the same thing again, it could be that none of us are good enough to set up the PB13 to its ultimate mid bass performance but the fact remains that you are not alone when you say that mid bass is lacking.
> 
> I can't answer the svs advised you against the sb13 but again perhaps there is an element of product protection going on as well as a belief that the set up is not quite right.
> 
> There are basic laws of physics with a sealed and ported subwoofer and I can't believe the pb13 ultra is immune from those I.e they have different characteristics


Agreed, I heard it for myself with Moonfly's dual 15's but I didn't hear any extra bass details between them and my pb13, it was just the loudness and the chest punch, but again I wasn't sure if the punch was felt more because there were 2 subs with 1000watt amps driving each 1 versus 1 750watt pb13u or just the fact that that is how a sealed sub sounds/feels compared to a ported.

That is also why I was wondering if you would get that effect by having 2 pb13s but as someone stated earlier, this would not be the case.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

marty1 said:


> Agreed, I heard it for myself with Moonfly's dual 15's but I didn't hear any extra bass details between them and my pb13, it was just the loudness and the chest punch, but again I wasn't sure if the punch was felt more because there were 2 subs with 1000watt amps driving each 1 versus 1 750watt pb13u or just the fact that that is how a sealed sub sounds/feels compared to a ported.
> 
> That is also why I was wondering if you would get that effect by having 2 pb13s but as someone stated earlier, this would not be the case.


Take that demo only as a rough comparison. For a proper true comparison you need to test them in your room and ideally over a couple weeks before you could truly make the comparison properly. Its also worth knowing it takes some time to become properly accustomed to a new sub before you really begin to realise the subtle differences that really matter. 

A demo of Grahams is worth while though, as you can get to hear what big ported subs can sound like, and you may prefer that, some people just dont like the reduced output of sealed subs versus what you can do with that same driver in a big ported cab.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Moonfly said:


> Take that demo only as a rough comparison. For a proper true comparison you need to test them in your room and ideally over a couple weeks before you could truly make the comparison properly. Its also worth knowing it takes some time to become properly accustomed to a new sub before you really begin to realise the subtle differences that really matter.
> 
> A demo of Grahams is worth while though, as you can get to hear what big ported subs can sound like, and you may prefer that, some people just dont like the reduced output of sealed subs versus what you can do with that same driver in a big ported cab.


Thanks Dan :T

I am sorting a demo out with Graham tomorrow.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Be sure to let us know what you think. I you find you cant tell the difference between sealed and ported in the details department etc, then sealed subs may not be your forte and ported will give a fair bit more output if you can accommodate a large cab ( or two )

Be sure to follow up with your thoughts :T


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## randyc1 (Jul 20, 2011)

Can someone please explain to me excactly what is "Mid-Bass Punch" . I hear about this alot ,and just can't figure it out ??

Everyone seems to after a Flat FR ,... so how would a sub with (Mid Bass.Punch) FR gragh, look any different from a sub without ??. 
... Or is the Punch from Not having a flat FR ? ,but having a hump in the Mids ???????


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## samhain (Feb 19, 2012)

I won't begin to answer that as I will get it wrong, for me the sealed loading of a driver means that it starts and stops very quickly and when there is a sequence of punch bass moments in a films then the driver keeps up, the recovery time of a ported driver will be a fraction longer...and I mean a fraction but for me that matters for you maybe not


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

randyc1 said:


> Can someone please explain to me excactly what is "Mid-Bass Punch" . I hear about this alot ,and just can't figure it out ??
> 
> Everyone seems to after a Flat FR ,... so how would a sub with (Mid Bass.Punch) FR gragh, look any different from a sub without ??.
> ... Or is the Punch from Not having a flat FR ? ,but having a hump in the Mids ???????


I wondered that exact same thing?? I can only guess the science behind it. There is more going on the frequency response than just the decibel level, REW only shows you how loud each frequency can be played but cant show you how the notes and power are delivered. When a pb13u kicks out the power goes across the floor and all around the room, when a punchier sealed sub kicks out it's energy comes at you head on and hits you square in the chest. The decibel level will still look the same but you just feel the bass energy in a different way..........Of coarse I'm just guessing and I could be talking nonsense, maybe someone on here could give a definate answer as I would love to know how it works too??


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

samhain said:


> I won't begin to answer that as I will get it wrong, for me the sealed loading of a driver means that it starts and stops very quickly and when there is a sequence of punch bass moments in a films then the driver keeps up, the recovery time of a ported driver will be a fraction longer...and I mean a fraction but for me that matters for you maybe not


You posted that as I began to reply but that would make sense too


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Have you thought about having a pair of sealed subs for your low end and then getting some diy speakers with some high sensitive 12" or 15" monitors up front for your upper frequency bass. That is what I would do next and not buy commercial speakers.

Something along the lines off these maybe:

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_141&products_id=1006

I think that would certainly rock in the upper bass.


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## samhain (Feb 19, 2012)

My mate put a small 8 inch mid bass driver in a 1 cuft box to improve his mid bass it was a fierce 8 inch and was higher up the frequency range probably up to about 200hz and it did a super job of providing more midbass


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

gperkins_1973 said:


> Have you thought about having a pair of sealed subs for your low end and then getting some diy speakers with some high sensitive 12" or 15" monitors up front for your upper frequency bass. That is what I would do next and not buy commercial speakers.
> 
> Something along the lines off these maybe:
> 
> ...


I could never give up my focal profiles, I have heard a lot of speakers and a few home cinema packages and I'm yet to here anything that sounds as soft/crisp/clarified as these speakers, I also think they are one of the few floorstanders that look extremely elegant and pleasing to the eye. Through all my upgraditis these are the only things I haven't even considered parting with.

Besides I thought the whole point of changing to the sealed subs was to get that upper bass punch :scratch:


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

It is but I wasn't sure what you had up front.


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## samhain (Feb 19, 2012)

Floor standars eh, that give you a bi of flexibility with crossover you shouldn't be lacking mid bass with some floor stanrars and the 2 18's it will punch like anything when all integrated.

Lik you I have M&k speakers and it's the one thing I never change


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

gperkins_1973 said:


> It is but I wasn't sure what you had up front.


It's the full focal profile setup, 918s/908c/908sr bipoles. Annoyingly the sub was rubbish, £1200 and it only went down to 32hz It was punchy but It had so many little niggles, in quiet scenes every b & p in dialogue you could here tiny little pops from the sub as it was placed near me. It got so annoying, I'd love to know what that was? With dance tracks it couldn't keep up with beat at all. Audiot did warn me against their subs but I wanted everything matching, little did I know. When I changed to the Monolith I hear sounds I had never heard/felt before, it was so impressive to experience frequencies below 30hz.



samhain said:


> Floor standars eh, that give you a bi of flexibility with crossover you shouldn't be lacking mid bass with some floor stanrars and the 2 18's it will punch like anything when all integrated.
> 
> Lik you I have M&k speakers and it's the one thing I never change


It's nice to have something we don't want to change aye :heehee:


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

I have to say I was very impressed with the monolith. I had a friend local to me and he could almost run it reference and it stayed pretty well controlled for the money. Not as composed as a PB13 but still great value for money.


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## pbc (Sep 3, 2007)

If you want to know what a sealed sub sounds like, put your pb13 in sealed mode. It will have more output across the range out to 80hz than the sb13. No rocket science here. Bigger box, similar amp power ( can't recall which pb13 you have or the amp on the sb13) and similar driver. Plus, this is what svs has said and they have zero reason to not sell pb13 owners an sb13. 

I'm also not saying dual 18 subs (sealed or otherwise)won't be capable of providing much more output. I'm saying in a 1600-1700 cubic foot room you are getting all the output, or very close to it, that you need with a single pb13. Ie. your source material doesn't care how big your room is, it doesn't push out more spl at the source if your room is 3000 cubic feet or 1500 cubic feet. It puts out the same levels and your system is either capable of reproducing them or it is not. The pb13 is only a few db down at best vs say the f113 above 30 hz. Group delay is about 10 miliseconds better on the f113 from 20 to about 40hz, that could make a slight diff in midbass slam, don't know. 

I certainly prefer the sealed setup in my room because it's easier to integrate and get a flatter response down to even 8hz or so. Plus it allows me to cross my speakers up at 150hz which lets my av15h drivers produce more of the "midbass" sound that my Paradigm Sig S2 bookshelves struggle with at higher levels. 

Graham iirc has some large fronts as well and a larger room to go with his incredible sub setup.

Personally I'd look to room acoustics or something like the hsu mbm modules before trying to get a "better" sub setup in that size room. It's too bad you're not local given we have identical size rooms and I still have my pb13 along with my dual dual opposed av15h driver setup, drivers btw which are known more for their "midbass" punch and sq than anything else...


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## pbc (Sep 3, 2007)

gperkins_1973 said:


> I have to say I was very impressed with the monolith. I had a friend local to me and he could almost run it reference and it stayed pretty well controlled for the money. Not as composed as a PB13 but still great value for money.


That's a sub that I don't think was ever available in north America, or at least Canada. Really wanted to try one out after Illka's positive reviews.


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## funky_waves (Jul 3, 2007)

randyc1 said:


> Can someone please explain to me excactly what is "Mid-Bass Punch" . I hear about this alot ,and just can't figure it out ??
> 
> Everyone seems to after a Flat FR ,... so how would a sub with (Mid Bass.Punch) FR gragh, look any different from a sub without ??.
> ... Or is the Punch from Not having a flat FR ? ,but having a hump in the Mids ???????


There is a lot more going on than raw frequency response. You can have two very different subs, Eq’d to have identical (flat) in room frequency response, and one might have much better "punch" than the other. Some factors include; power compression (both in the driver and the amplifier), distortion, available power, and efficiency, just to name a few. 

The affect of driver size and enclosure type, in themselves(it has more to do with how these factors are commonly allowed, by design, or lack of, to affect the real factors, some as mentioned above), play the smallest role of all. Misconceptions are perpetuated by subwoofer designs that do not address common issues with some design aspects and as a result give big drivers and ported enclosures the stigma of only being good for "low end" and conversely small drivers and sealed enclosures as being "faster", "punchier". 

FYI one does not have to have choose between having good "mid bass punch" or "low end", as there are subwoofers that do incredibly well at both.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

samhain said:


> I won't begin to answer that as I will get it wrong, for me the sealed loading of a driver means that it starts and stops very quickly and when there is a sequence of punch bass moments in a films then the driver keeps up, the recovery time of a ported driver will be a fraction longer...and I mean a fraction but for me that matters for you maybe not


But a driver in a ported sub acts like a driver in a sealed sub down to the point the port effect begins to come in, the driver in the ported cab acts the same way and is loaded by the cabinet the same way through out the range it would be in a sealed cabinet. Its only when it reaches the operating range of the port that the behaviour changes. As the port effect comes in the driver stops working harder and begins to need to work less hard again, making it more accurate. Its somewhat a misconception that drivers in ported subs are less responsive than those in sealed cabinets. The major differences are in how the two compare sound wise, and the additional artefacts the port adds to the sound of a ported sub. Cabinet size is also a major factor in the sound a driver produces, and typically a ported cab is much larger than a sealed one, meaning that a particular driver used in both cab types with have a different sound quality in the respective systems as a result.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

pbc said:


> If you want to know what a sealed sub sounds like, put your pb13 in sealed mode. It will have more output across the range out to 80hz than the sb13. No rocket science here. Bigger box, similar amp power ( can't recall which pb13 you have or the amp on the sb13) and similar driver. Plus, this is what svs has said and they have zero reason to not sell pb13 owners an sb13.


This comment is far too generalized. The PB13 in sealed mode wont sound like an SB13. For a start the drivers are different, and the cab sizes are different. Sealed subs can have entirely different sounds based on how they are designed as can ported subs. The only thing you will learn by sealing a PB13U is what a PB13U driver sounds like in a sealed cabinet the same size as the PB13U cabinet and nothing more.

FWIW, I personally dont thing the PB13U is well suited to sealed mode at all. In terms of sound character, the sub sound very similar sealed as it does ported, just with much reduced output but a little more accurate if your sensitive to that. Personally, given the SB13, I would consider the sealed operational mode of the PBU's to be obsolete and of no use, if you want the sealed option, then the SB13 is the one I would go for. Interestingly (for me anyway), I do think the combination of a PB13 and SB13 would be a very good way to go for the best of both worlds.


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## randyc1 (Jul 20, 2011)

funky_waves said:


> There is a lot more going on than raw frequency response. You can have two very different subs, Eq’d to have identical (flat) in room frequency response, and one might have much better "punch" than the other. Some factors include; power compression (both in the driver and the amplifier), distortion, available power, and efficiency, just to name a few.
> 
> The affect of driver size and enclosure type, in themselves(it has more to do with how these factors are commonly allowed, by design, or lack of, to affect the real factors, some as mentioned above), play the smallest role of all. Misconceptions are perpetuated by subwoofer designs that do not address common issues with some design aspects and as a result give big drivers and ported enclosures the stigma of only being good for "low end" and conversely small drivers and sealed enclosures as being "faster", "punchier".
> 
> FYI one does not have to have choose between having good "mid bass punch" or "low end", as there are subwoofers that do incredibly well at both.




Thank you very much for that response Nathan !! 

....I know that one of the favorites for Mid-Bass and Extension from reading here, is the (TC S Pro 5100), which is supposed to have superoir Mid-Bass to even a $$ 900.00 (LMS-U 5400) :huh:

...But would love to know which, if there are any "Reasonable Priced" 12" and 15" Drivers that have good Extension AND good Mid-Bass qualities, rellatively speaking ???


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

pbc said:


> That's a sub that I don't think was ever available in north America, or at least Canada. Really wanted to try one out after Illka's positive reviews.


It is a fantastic sub, so much value for money :T



pbc said:


> If you want to know what a sealed sub sounds like, put your pb13 in sealed mode. It will have more output across the range out to 80hz than the sb13. No rocket science here. Bigger box, similar amp power ( can't recall which pb13 you have or the amp on the sb13) and similar driver. Plus, this is what svs has said and they have zero reason to not sell pb13 owners an sb13.
> 
> I'm also not saying dual 18 subs (sealed or otherwise)won't be capable of providing much more output. I'm saying in a 1600-1700 cubic foot room you are getting all the output, or very close to it, that you need with a single pb13. Ie. your source material doesn't care how big your room is, it doesn't push out more spl at the source if your room is 3000 cubic feet or 1500 cubic feet. It puts out the same levels and your system is either capable of reproducing them or it is not. The pb13 is only a few db down at best vs say the f113 above 30 hz. Group delay is about 10 miliseconds better on the f113 from 20 to about 40hz, that could make a slight diff in midbass slam, don't know.
> 
> ...


I would have loved to hear it but it's a tad too far :sad:

I have tried the pb13 in sealed mode and it sucks out everything, there is hardly any power at all.

Again it's not the output I'm seeking but the sq and chest punching type bass.

The other reason I'm seeking 2 is it is impossible to get good bass for my wife, she can only just about hear it, either she gets good bass or I do :dontknow:


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## pbc (Sep 3, 2007)

Moonfly said:


> This comment is far too generalized. The PB13 in sealed mode wont sound like an SB13. For a start the drivers are different, and the cab sizes are different. Sealed subs can have entirely different sounds based on how they are designed as can ported subs. The only thing you will learn by sealing a PB13U is what a PB13U driver sounds like in a sealed cabinet the same size as the PB13U cabinet and nothing more.
> 
> FWIW, I personally dont thing the PB13U is well suited to sealed mode at all. In terms of sound character, the sub sound very similar sealed as it does ported, just with much reduced output but a little more accurate if your sensitive to that. Personally, given the SB13, I would consider the sealed operational mode of the PBU's to be obsolete and of no use, if you want the sealed option, then the SB13 is the one I would go for. Interestingly (for me anyway), I do think the combination of a PB13 and SB13 would be a very good way to go for the best of both worlds.


Hear what you're saying re: too generalized. But the PB13 in sealed mode measures quite well. Certainly doesn't have the spl that it's tuning modes have and with the sb13 now available I certainly wouldn't recco anyone purchase the PBS is they want a sealed sub. But it has a typical 2nd order roll off of a sealed sub and when not pushed has great potential. In my room it was flat to almost 10hz. Never used it in that config on its own for much listening. But at a couple shoot outs I did way back when from an sq perspective everyone was impressed with the pb particularly in sealed mode for music. FWIW!


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

All sealed subs should show the standard roll off, the issue with the PBU in sealed mode isnt its response or performance, it more one of whether or not the system Q is suitable or not. In the US you guys prefer a much lower system Q than us guys in Europe, so it may not be as much of an issue over there. In ported or sealed mode the PBU just aint that punchy. Its accurate and loud and can go low, but for me thats not enough, and Ive seen many a comment to this effect.


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## pbc (Sep 3, 2007)

Moonfly said:


> In the US you guys prefer a much lower system Q than us guys in Europe, so it may not be as much of an issue over there.


This comment is far too generalized. :neener: Not that it makes a difference, but I am in Canada.

I am genuinely curious about the statement though, are you saying ID and/or B&M sub manufacturer's in Europe typically design the system to a higher Q than what is done in the US?


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

See I disagree with Europe wanting a higher Q than the states to a certain extent.

I have had three sealed subs. They varied in qtc of 0.95, 0.82 and now 0.76.

They all sounded very different to my ears. The higher Q sounded better for music in my opinion due to having a higher curve emphasised on upper bass. The other two sounded more fuller and heavier in the lower bass region. This was aparent even after EQ.

I always felt the PB13 sounded the best of all SVS ported subs with regards to music reproduction. I just felt that the PB under heavy load sounded quite course especially compared to my ported subs now. 

I can put my Q18's in sealed and ported and whilst the sealed sounds a bit punchier which is aparent, even after EQ and being flat to 10hz in both sealed and low tune the ported overall sounds the best. There is a big difference in low end capability with the ported over sealed.

The thing is not many people can make their diy subs ported and then run a qtc of around 0.7 due to the different enclosure volumes but that is the beauty off the old Q18's.

If I was going sealed again I would shoot for between 0.6-0.7 and depending on box size maybe 0.8 and then EQ but no higher.

A proper desgined ported sub will sound almost as good as a good sealed sub. This subject has been touched on many times in the past.

Everyone has a different view at the end of the day but it's all down to the design.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

pbc said:


> This comment is far too generalized. :neener: Not that it makes a difference, but I am in Canada.
> 
> I am genuinely curious about the statement though, are you saying ID and/or B&M sub manufacturer's in Europe typically design the system to a higher Q than what is done in the US?


Lol, it is somewhat generalized but I have about ten years of experience talking to dealers and other customers (I used to drop in every audio shop I went near for years when I used to work all over the country) and 5 years of non stop forum experience on UK and US forums that has led me to that conclusion. The SVS sealed system Q in room is close to a .5 response, and I have seen many complaints about the SVS in sealed mode with people describing this character but not know what the issue is. Ive heard next to nothing from the UK based commercial sub manufacturers thats sounds the way the SVS does in sealed mode though I obviously have measured the raw system Q of any of these subs (I am confident in my ears in this regard to a degree though), and IME the vast majority of people this side of the pond prefer a higher system Q than a .5 one, which seems to go down very well in the US and is openly preferred by many.



gperkins_1973 said:


> See I disagree with Europe wanting a higher Q than the states to a certain extent.
> 
> I have had three sealed subs. They varied in qtc of 0.95, 0.82 and now 0.76.
> 
> ...


I am talking about low low Q values though, closer to .5 compare with .7 or higher. I actually like a Q of around .6 - .65 personally so im not chest punch junky either. The problem most DIYers have is that a cab size that is optimal for a .7 Q is almost never optimal for an LLT design. Only a true LLT design will act like a sealed sub to a low enough frequency to make all port artefacts inaudible. The issue for me with the LLT design is this very low Q sound character, which for me personally means the sub is robbed of any character and life and is turned into a pure LFE generator. Like I say though, this is what many people actually want. Even subs with a 15hz tune to me sound like a ported sub, every time I go back to sealed for me its like a revelation again. I guess what I should do is do a blind test of a DIY sealed sub vs and LLT and see if I can pick out the sealed one by ear alone, but thats impossible for the foreseeable future.


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