# SEOS 12 and Elemental Designs TD12



## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

So, all these new speaker designs using horns and super-tweeters seem to be the rage. I have been skeptical about designs with the SEOS waveguide and compression horn tweeters from my past experience with horns, but the builds for these have been popping up left and right with a huge following. People are raving about them, but I am always skeptical to anything with a cult-following for some reason. I have a pair of Mackie SRM450 v1 active loudspeakers that use CDs that I love, but not for everyday listening. They are meant to sound pretty good, and they do while getting very loud with decent bass for their compact size - not exactly a SQ speaker. Certainly not for putting in my living room to listen to on Sunday mornings while I sip coffee with my family. I have heard many of these loudspeakers using horns and don't really care for the sound. They always seem shrill to me, for lack of better words. 

I demoed a pair of these amazing speakers at Robotbunny's (Nate) house yesterday and am absolutely floored by their accurate, controlled sound. Nate's speakers use the SEOS 12 waveguide and Denovo DNA-360, Acoustic Elegance Lambada Series TD12M mid-bass driver, and XO designed by Bill Walso. He powers them with 100w from his Denon AVR and XO at 80hz to a pair of sealed FTW 15 powered by a single iNuke 1000dsp. I sat about 10' back with the the speakers about 8' apart. He played several tracks from different genres that all highlight the strengths of this design, which in my opinion are: open sound stage with a huge sweet spot of about 7', smooth and airy mids, detailed yet not over-pronounced highs, and punchy mid-bass. I could move to either end of the 6' couch and not hear one speaker over the other. All of this in a relatively compact enclosure of (guessing) 14x14x26. Perfect for what I have been looking for.

I want to take this design a step further and see if I can design an mtm from this by adding the TD12x, which has a lower fs of 34hz, or the TD12s, which has an fs of 31.5 hz. The TD12m has to stay as it's excellent midrange is the backbone of the design. Tuning of the cabinet would be around 34-40hz, and the probability of this design is yet to be determined. This will be months in the works since I have several other projects on my plate, but I'm going to begin collecting parts and pushing forward as I go. I have an email to AE Speakers to see if they have knowledge of a build similar to this that I can follow, or if not, maybe I can drag my feet long enough that one will happen as I save up for a half dozen of these drivers.


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

Received an email back from John at AE saying that he has a the exact configuration I'm dreaming of in the works as a kit, but with an all active XO using the miniDSP ice plate amps and the Radion 475 cd. I could use the same dsp settings with an outboard mini 10x10 and have plenty of power from the 818 if I run them active. I dunno... I would prefer to run them passive, or even the MT part of it passive and the mid-bass driver I could run active off of the other two channels of my 2x4 mini-dsp. I wish I knew something about XO design.


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

sounds like it'll be an interesting hybrid of stuff.


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

Still beating my head against the wall getting a plan together for this. I have it down to two options.

1) MTM using AE td12m - SEOS12 and dna360 - AE td12m. 4 cubes, tuned to 45hz. Crossed to the subs at 60hz

2) bwalso's original TM tuned to 60hz sitting on top of a an active td 12x or 12h tuned to 45hz. The active enclosure would be off the extra 2 channels on my miniDSP and an EP4000.


John J from Acoustic Elegance sent me these pics: first one is the response of two TD12m in 4 cubes, tuned to 45hz. They would work really well with my Gjallarhorns crossed at 60hz, which is why I'm trying to come up with a solution for the MTM. I'm on to scouring the internet for XO design cookbooks. I found this intro to XO design that I'm going to start with: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...designing-crossovers-without-measurement.html and Baffle Step calculations: http://sound.westhost.com/bafflestep.htm and PCD software: http://audio.claub.net/software/jbabgy/jbagby.html





This next one combines the original TM as designed by bwalso and a separate cab for the 12x or 12h on the bottom. This would be the "easy" way.


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

I have decided on the AE TD12m with the SEOS12 and Denovo 360 tuned to 60hz for my LCR. I have the waveguides, compression drivers, on one of the TD12m now, and received word from Acoustic Elegance that my other two drivers are being built now. They sent me this photo, which I think is pretty cool so see them being built just for me. Neat!

Also some photos of the other parts...


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## mjg100 (Mar 12, 2008)

Any update to this thread? I am looking at building an MTM using a pair of TD12M's. My tweeter most likely will be the Beyma TPL-150H. I already own a pair of speakers like Robotbunny (TD12M with SEOS-12 and DNA360).


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

mjg100 said:


> Any update to this thread? I am looking at building an MTM using a pair of TD12M's. My tweeter most likely will be the Beyma TPL-150H. I already own a pair of speakers like Robotbunny (TD12M with SEOS-12 and DNA360).


Not yet - these will perform just like Robotbunny's since they are pretty much the same. My box will be a hair bigger and tuning a tad lower than his. Hopefully just a couple of weeks til I begin. All the parts are here and just awaiting cabinets.


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

I finally have the crossovers together and this morning I hooked them up since I just couldn't wait to hear the cd in the waveguide. I have most of the panels cut for the boxes and will be putting those together today.


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

I did an extended test fit also, watching excursion of course. The mid and high on these are going to be really, really nice


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

I don't doubt it. the CD's and drivers you chose are beautiful


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

I have two put together and will wrap up the other in the morning. I'm going to enjoy them unfinished for awhile while I work on a couple of other projects for the next few weeks. First impression is: wow!


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

Here's another shot to show the size. They are quite a bit bigger than I imagined compared to what I have scribbled down on paper.


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## Novice_01 (Mar 27, 2013)

They are glorious, Doug.


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## studiotech (Apr 27, 2009)

Looking good Doug. Just a word of advice though. Have a good look or tug at those solder joints on the connection tabs. I'd hate for you to have an intermittent problem. It looks to me like you may have not tinned the connector prior to attaching the soldered wire. This may have caused a less than perfect joint. Ideally, you would tin BOTH items you are joining and then flow the two together. Although, I admit it is tough to see given the resolution and distance of the photos, but I taught soldering for years and I can get OCD about it. If all is good, enjoy.

Greg


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## studiotech (Apr 27, 2009)

I just noticed how you did the port tube. Looks slick. Is it black PVC pipe? How thick?

Greg


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

studiotech said:


> Looking good Doug. Just a word of advice though. Have a good look or tug at those solder joints on the connection tabs. I'd hate for you to have an intermittent problem. It looks to me like you may have not tinned the connector prior to attaching the soldered wire. This may have caused a less than perfect joint. Ideally, you would tin BOTH items you are joining and then flow the two together. Although, I admit it is tough to see given the resolution and distance of the photos, but I taught soldering for years and I can get OCD about it. If all is good, enjoy. Greg


Greg, I want to be OCD with soldering too. Please share more advise. My only goal as far as I know now is to make the contacts touch as much as possible, try to leave the soldered joint shiny (no movement as it cools), and give it a good tug. The only ones I have tinned are the stranded wires. I'm guilty of the low res photos too. All my spare change has been poured into this remodel, and I'm too cheap to spend the $40 for a sd card for my good camera!


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

studiotech said:


> I just noticed how you did the port tube. Looks slick. Is it black PVC pipe? How thick? Greg


Thanks, yes it's 1/4" wall 4" PVC


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

Novice_01 said:


> They are glorious, Doug.


Watched Tron tonight with the center in place Vit, verrrry nice!


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## studiotech (Apr 27, 2009)

Doug, ideally you want to tin(flow solder) on the gold tab as well as the stripped ends of the wires. I'd suggest reheating the wires to remove them, flow a nice pad of solder onto the tabs, re-tin the ends of the wires so they are shiny and smooth again, and THEN re-attach the freshly tinned wires to the tabs. As you mentioned, hold very still as it cools and sets to achieve a shiny, smooth finished product. I think you will see a nice improvement in the visual appearance and the strength of the connection. Oh, and don't be shy with the solder as you tin. If you get too much, you always knock some off, but not enough to coat the entire surface well can result in loose "cold solder joints" that break free.

We use the TD12M in the main monitors at the studio I work at. They are fantastic drivers. What are you using for a subwoofer?

Greg


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

Thanks for the tips Greg, I will redo the gold tabs when I take them back apart to paint the cabinets. 

I am using two Gjallarhorns as subs and 6 Eminence 8" coaxials and Denovo DNA-150 compression drivers as surrounds, using front heights. Everything blends together just as I had hoped.


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## studiotech (Apr 27, 2009)

dougc said:


> Thanks for the tips Greg, I will redo the gold tabs when I take them back apart to paint the cabinets.
> 
> I am using two Gjallarhorns as subs and 6 Eminence 8" coaxials and Denovo DNA-150 compression drivers as surrounds, using front heights. Everything blends together just as I had hoped.


Does that Eminence coax come with a HF driver that you replaced with the Denovo? Ive been toying with the idea of coax drivers for surrounds in the wall myself. Been looking at the Faital Pro and B&C models over at Parts Express. I'd like to keep with planar drivers though, so I might make my own coax by mounting a BG Neo3 in front of an 8-10" prosound style woofer.

Greg


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

It does not come with a cd. The Beyma, b&c, or Faital would all be great choices. I looked at the b&c closely, but couldn't justify 3x the price.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Nice looking design, Doug. I've been intrigued with the SEAS designs for some time now, but haven't been able to hear any. What's your favourite feature of this particular design?


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## dtsdig (Oct 31, 2012)

dougc said:


> Watched Tron tonight with the center in place Vit, verrrry nice!


WOW! :yikes: Your room turned out great! I really like the accents you put into the design of the soffits and the room in general. I know it's been a long time in the works for you. Nice work.


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

Owen Bartley said:


> Nice looking design, Doug. I've been intrigued with the SEAS designs for some time now, but haven't been able to hear any. What's your favourite feature of this particular design?


I have never heard a speaker with this kind of clarity and detail, especially with the capability of very high levels, so that is part of my favorite. The most exciting part about the SEOS is the huge sweet spot. I play a test on people when they demo the speakers and try to get them to figure out which speakers have sound playing. They almost always say that the LCR are all playing when I have them set to 2ch. you can sit on the far left side of my couch and the sound is still even with 2ch listening. The couch is 130" wide and is 11' back from the L and R mains, they are 12' apart at the cone center and toed in past the MLP a few degrees.



dtsdig said:


> WOW! :yikes: Your room turned out great! I really like the accents you put into the design of the soffits and the room in general. I know it's been a long time in the works for you. Nice work.


Thanks! It's the little details that make it fun for me. I have been following your center build too and have learned what I need to make these in to curved cabs. Thanks for sharing the excellent build log. I found some 1/8" hardboard at the HD by my house, so I'm good to go.


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

With Mains, xt32, MiniDSP eq on the subs, 1/6 smoothing, 2.5db hot on the AVR which measures 10db hot with both subs 

Measurements are 2ch with both subs


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