# Behringer EP vs. Emo XPA...



## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

Someone mentioned using Behringer EP amps in a separate thread. I've not seen any pro reviews of Behringer amps for HT applications but, after seeing how ridiculously inexpensinve they are (and with generally very positive, albeit few, user reviews), I am wondering if they are worth considering for my basement HT. I was planning to upgrade AVR to Onkyo TX-NR3007 for HDMI and Audessey capabilities, and had my heart set on an Emo XPA-3 to provide more juice to the front 3 channels (Klipsch Reference series). Emo's are already very inexpensive compared to other high-end amps and I don't think I've seen one negative word against their amps. But, for the price of one XPA-3 (~$540 on current sale), I can almost get 3 EP1500's ($190 each) and bi-amp all 3 channels.

Anyone have experience with EP's in a HT application? How do these compare with Emo XPA's?

Regards,
sga2


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Other than some problems with level matching (many are using a Samson S-convert to remedy this) and noisy fans, I haven't heard to many complaints. I do think I recall a review/test where the full frequency spectrum wasn't reproduced at high-levels, but that would still make these an excellent amp for subs.

Maybe someone who actually has these running in their home theater can speak to this?


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I use all pro amps to power my HT and I really like the cost, performance, and the fact that I have much more headroom then I did with my Sherwood Newcastle 5 channel amp. Now there are some cons. Most of them have noisy fans so if you need to have them close to your LP then you would have to do fan mods to them. Fairly easy to do and in my case I have them all in the other room in a closet so I don't hear them. And then there is hookup, your reciever needs to have pre-outs and you have to buy different cables like XLR cables with adaptors or a Samson s-convert to hook up to the reciever. I probably won't go back to a HT amp unless I run into some killer deal I coudn't refuse and then I would still think about it. So my experience with pro amps is positive and if money is a big issue they are great bang for your buck..:T...Hope this helps...:wave:


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## dwr (May 13, 2010)

You really can't compare the two. The Emotiva is far more musical than the EP. Also the 1500 is not made anymore there is the 2000 and the 4000. I use 3 4000s to power my subs so I am not slamming the EP. If you want to use the EP amps to power your H/T then go for it, but don't compare them to the Emotiva. Different leagues altogether.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

What would define a "musical" power amp? What characteristics would one possess?


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## dwr (May 13, 2010)

The ability to amplify the ENTIRE frequency spectrum with low levels of distortion. I am not going to get into an argument on this.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

eugovector said:


> What would define a "musical" power amp? What characteristics would one possess?


It would be an amp that has had music lessons..... :rofl:


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## dwr (May 13, 2010)

I own 3 ep 4000 and demoed the xpa 5 from emotiva the only reason I returned it was the fact that I really couldn't tell a difference between my Rotel 1075 and the Emotiva so I stayed with my Rotel. I have run a 4000 on my front channels to see how it sounded and it was not good. The Rotel and the Emotiva both sounded much better.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Here's the test for the EP1500 I saw a while back: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10747784#post10747784

Short version, at rated power, you're down 1db @ 20K and over 1% distortion. Dropping to 235 watts lowers distortion, doesn't say anything about improving high-frequency response. Seems this amp would be less "musical" and more "ragged" with a hint of "nugget", but it's cheap!!


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The debate between Pro Amplifiers and Home Amplifiers is often a divisive one. I realize and respect that many Behringer and Crown Owners think that those who choose to spend more on Hifi Amplifiers are wasting their money.

I will only say that the Amplifiers that I have purchased have large Power Transformers and very high levels of Capacitance. Moreover, many upper tier Professional Studios use Amplifiers like Bryston which cater to both Professional Applications and High End Audio. An example being Bob Ludwig's Gateway Mastering.

Ludwig is one of the foremost Mastering Engineers in the World and uses many Components that are sold primarily to well heeled Audiophiles. 

Regardless, in the end, it is what sounds best for you. I choose to use very high powered, high current Hifi Amplifiers, but certainly respect those who choose to use Pro Amps.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dwr (May 13, 2010)

Oh hey I am not slamming the Behringer amps at all, I think they are a huge bargain, thats why I own 3 of them and a dcx 2496 and a deq 2496. I am just saying that they do not sound as good as say an Emotiva or a Rotel or an Adcom. I guess my 2 channel listening is just more important to me than the 5.1. If budget is the MAIN concern with powering the HT then you really can't beat the Behringer.


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## dwr (May 13, 2010)

Here is the link to some test specs on the 1500. At rated power at 20kHz it is running almost 2% distortion.http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10747784#post10747784


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Yep, same link I posted.


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## dwr (May 13, 2010)

Sorry man....I did not see that


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I agree that people have their preferences but being an audio snob is something completley different. Now I am not saying anyone is but I have yet to be in a room where two different amplifiers are being used and one has 1% distortion and the other had 2% and was able to here the difference at normal listening levels. To me it falls in the same catagory as speaker wire, Some say if you spend $2000 bucks a meter they are convinced it sounds better even though there is blind tests that were done that showed people couldn't tell the differnce between them and lamp cord. I have had a few different amps and I now run all Pro amps and will not say they are better as far as sound goes but I won't say the other amps I have owned were either. I run B+W 801's and they do sound better to me now then they did with the Newcastle amp I sold. Subjective? Absolutley but if it sounds good to you then who am I to say your wrong. Just my opinion.....


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Until I figured out that a fully active system was too much on my plate, I was planning to use a pro-sound xover along with passively-cooled pro-amps for the entire rack: blasphemy? Perhaps, but it would be a small fraction of the price of doing it with home amps with excellent sound and common connections between most components.

As far as 'musicality', are there not other important factors related to amp performance than distortion? If I'm not mistaken, seems I remember seeing slew rate and capacitance as critical components/attributes that cause sound differences, particularly at volume, however, these are not always measured/shown to consumers.

I would absolutely go with a pro-amp for sub duty (I did) unless you have a uber-efficient sub as the watt/$ is great, inflated power stats or otherwise. Personally, I would not use a fan-cooled amp for my mains/stereo listening as I can hear it across the room.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

My buddy has been modifying and fixing amps for 20+ years and the one thing that really seems to set amps apart is the power supply and caps. We modified an old Sony receiver with a MUCH larger toroidal transformer and better caps and the difference was night and day. We have done this on other amps as well but the Sony really was the eye opener for me.

Matt


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
My biggest issue with Pro Amps is the Fans that are used in the majority of them. I know that there are Aftermarket Kits that allow for less intrusive Fan noise.

The value proposition of Amplifiers like Behringer are undeniable. If I ever did a DIY Subwoofer, something like an EP Series Behringer would probably be the way I would go. Regardless, it is great that people can get high power Amplifiers so cheaply.

When it comes to high power Amplifiers, I still prefer my Aragon 8008bb and Parasound HCA-3500. Here is the Bench Test for the 3500:http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/100parasound/index3.html
I simply prefer Class A biased Amplifiers. With the Aragon, the first 26 Watts are in Class A before switching over to AB Operation.
Cheers,
JJ


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I do agree about the fans, They can be annoying but as I mentioned there are ways to fix that. Also HT amps are better looking and estetics means alot if the amp is in plain view but as far as sound being that much different from each....I'm not buying it....Check this out...http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...zpzVBw&usg=AFQjCNFzuu0kQPpadG4zUjqW5RnBNQEsSQ


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Excellent read TC, many thanks! I suspected much the same, as electrons are electrons. The primary difference in amps appear to be limitations in output. The integration of equipment and the listening environment will have a greater impact on sound quality. For instance, I have a low level 60hz hum from my LR bass bins, while my other sub doesn't have it. Same types of connections. I switched the LR pro-amp out with my 7ch home amp just to try it (home amp is less powerful, but had unused ch) and voila! no hum, however I didn't get near the dynamics with the 165w vs the pro-amp 275w (and I do mean nowhere near). I'll have to figure it out, but the real point I was making is the proper integration and output capability have a much larger impact to the sound than the cost component.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

tcarcio said:


> I do agree about the fans, They can be annoying but as I mentioned there are ways to fix that. Also HT amps are better looking and estetics means alot if the amp is in plain view but as far as sound being that much different from each....I'm not buying it....Check this out...http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...zpzVBw&usg=AFQjCNFzuu0kQPpadG4zUjqW5RnBNQEsSQ


Hello,
That is a good Article. Moreover, I certainly have never said that Solid State Amplifiers sound massively different from one another.

I am a big believer in large Toroidal Transformers and high levels of Capacitance. With the Parasound HCA-3500 and Aragon 8008bb, they are both Dual Mono constructed where each channel has its own TT and Capacitor Bank. My HCA-2205 uses a Single 2.0 kVa TT and a total of 150,000uf of Capacitance. In truth, the 3500 and 8008bb both have larger Power Supplies than my 5 Channel HCA-2205AT. 

Having both high current and Capacitance really is wonderful for when the Soundtrack demands it. While I rarely watch BD's at Reference Level, when I do the result is truly stunning.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Mika75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Matrix Hi-Fi Blind test

Just for reference, it's not just about the amplifier either


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

I think this is an interesting comparison, but for me it really is a ridiculous question since most receivers with good pre-amp outputs produce plenty of output for most rooms. I understand the desire for headroom, but it's not always necessary. For a subwoofer the EP2500/4000 is a no-brainer since it handles almost any load. For home speakers though you'd probably prefer the convenience of the Emotiva for additional headroom. 12v triggers are very nice and make life easier. 

If you want great pro-amps for speaker use. Look at the Yamaha P series. They are a class D super efficient design with no fan noise in normal applications. Samson Converts are normally only needed in going from Pro to consumer level not the other way around. But they can be helpful if you have bad pre-outs. 

Sound Quality arguments are interesting, but at the end of the day we'd all agree money is always better spent on the speakers instead of the amps. A Cheap receiver with great speakers will always best a fancy receiver with cheap speakers.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

How did I now you would recommend Yamaha.:bigsmile::T I agree though but at normal listening levels it is tough if not imposible to hear a difference, IMO. I also agree about the amps power being overkill for most HT rooms but I like to think of it as futreproofing......


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

tcarcio said:


> How did I now you would recommend Yamaha.:bigsmile::T I agree though but at normal listening levels it is tough if not imposible to hear a difference, IMO. I also agree about the amps power being overkill for most HT rooms but I like to think of it as futreproofing......


fan noise kills an experience IMO. I wish my projector was quieter.


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

some interesting DBTs:
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_pwr.htm
http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

Dan


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

IMHO there is a big differance in pro amps and Class a/b amps, sound quality beingt he #1 reason the second being the that pros are for exactly what the name implies pro venuis (concerts nightclubs etc.) Not to say that i wouldn't use one for a subwoofer but never to drive my mains or surrounds but like i said thats just my opinion. 

It's like my first experiance with full range Class D car audio amps when they first came out, i could tell a huge differance in sound quality after that i told myself never a class D for fullrange again, now i know there has been big changes in the way they are constructed and the sound quality of them has changed from what i've heard, but i think class D's are for subs and the same holds true for the pro amps at home. Just my 2 cents. :T


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

bambino said:


> IMHO there is a big differance in pro amps and Class a/b amps, sound quality beingt he #1 reason the second being the that pros are for exactly what the name implies pro venuis (concerts nightclubs etc.) Not to say that i wouldn't use one for a subwoofer but never to drive my mains or surrounds but like i said thats just my opinion.
> 
> It's like my first experiance with full range Class D car audio amps when they first came out, i could tell a huge differance in sound quality after that i told myself never a class D for fullrange again, now i know there has been big changes in the way they are constructed and the sound quality of them has changed from what i've heard, but i think class D's are for subs and the same holds true for the pro amps at home. Just my 2 cents. :T


Problem is our experiences as described can be attributed to the placebo effect. 

Secondly your first statement is a overstated a bit since the EP amp is a Class A/B design and Rotel amps are Class D. Without scientific controls it's hard to really say which truly sounds better. This is true even with speakers of similar quality. Doing a scientifically valid test would require a lot of test data from a statistically significant number of amps. Cost wise and effort wise it is not a viable. I remind people that sample sizes are required to establish a statistically significant conclusion. This is often forgotten. Remember every cook has his bad days. 

At the end of the day I think it's the quality of the amp that ultimately decides it's value. I imagine those early Class D models were very raw. I suggest you give it another go someday to see how far the technology has progressed. The Yamaha P series I would put next to the Behringer 2030p in how surprisingly good it really is for the price.

FWIW pro amps are used to make real theater sound. :T


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

lsiberian said:


> Problem is our experiences as described can be attributed to the placebo effect.
> 
> Secondly your first statement is a overstated a bit since the EP amp is a Class A/B design and Rotel amps are Class D. Without scientific controls it's hard to really say which truly sounds better. This is true even with speakers of similar quality. Doing a scientifically valid test would require a lot of test data from a statistically significant number of amps. Cost wise and effort wise it is not a viable. I remind people that sample sizes are required to establish a statistically significant conclusion. This is often forgotten. Remember every cook has his bad days.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the lesson lisberian :T.
About the class d thing, i did state that the technology has improved with those amps but just from my first experiance with them is what turned me off to them. I do understand however & believe that just because something turned me off in it's early stages that it's not fair to at least give it another chance.:T


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Like I mentioned in my earlier post and like lsiberian said the main thing is build quality and how the amps are used. At normal listening levels I think it would be tough to tell but if you really push the amp I think that is when any differences will present themselves. I know I have more power then I need and if I was to push the amps I have in my HT they would overpower the room and sound horrible so again IMO it is how you use or abuse the equipment which will show the differences.


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## Mika75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Power output is what differentiates well made amplifiers, end of story.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Mika75 said:


> Power output is what differentiates well made amplifiers, end of story.


Not entirely. If you have an amp that breaks within a weak with higher output it isn't better. Plus power output only matters when you have orders of magnitude in difference. I'd say reliability and safety trump output in most cases. Plus only pro or subwoofer drivers can take what I describe as high output. I won't argue it's importance, but cost is probably the greatest advantage pro-amps actually bring. Even the Anarchy driver is only rated for 125 watts and it uses a subwoofer based motor.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

I think of amplifiers like food... the better the ingredients the better the food if all things being equal. :bigsmile: 

Matt


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## Mika75 (Feb 5, 2009)

lsiberian said:


> Not entirely. If you have an amp that breaks within a weak with higher output it isn't better. Plus power output only matters when you have orders of magnitude in difference. I'd say reliability and safety trump output in most cases. Plus only pro or subwoofer drivers can take what I describe as high output. I won't argue it's importance, but cost is probably the greatest advantage pro-amps actually bring. Even the Anarchy driver is only rated for 125 watts and it uses a subwoofer based motor.


If it breaks within a week, then it wasn't a "well made amplifier" :nerd:

I don't like to see clipping, my mains get 450watts and there's still times that i need to back off... :whistling:


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