# Best use of vintage drivers



## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

I've searched this forum and I finally went in this forum section. Because I dont talk about subs but for the best use of what I get on hands. I have a pair of 15" JBL K-145, 2420 mid-high compression drivers, McCaully 9" horns(similar to the JBL 2391 accoustic lens) or the standard 20" (2390)folded lens.

I also have (center channel?) a 15" Altec 604E 8HPLN that could be used. I already have passive X-Overs but I would probably go for active X-Over(Berrhinger)

Have a modified Crown DC-300 (210 Watts/Ch/8Ohms)and a D-150 amp(75WCh/8Ohms).

I know that this question cannot represent a great deal of enthusiasm but who knows. Theese things are collecting dust. I would like to be an environnemental friendly guy:boxer:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Hi Serge and welcome to the Shack... :T

Are you looking to build subs from these or full range speakers.... or is that what you want to know, what others would recommend?

I am thinking this might be a design challenge to piece these together.


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Hi Sonnie

I just have those speakers (2 way) that I used for my keyboard setup (long time ago):duh:

They aleady are in a plywood bass reflex enclosures(plans from JBL) but the match between them are far from optimal but I was thinking of an efficient loudspeaker playback system and the most hi-fi possible, I've seen some studio monitors(westlake) that used the 2420 as a hi-mid/tweeter mounted directly on a round plate without horn that sounded quite good, that was matched with a JBL2440 mid mounted on a wood horn and 2X15 JBL woofers(don't remember model) that were going quite low(not as low as any sub) maybe around solid 40Hz. I don't have subs for the moment but for musical(60%) and home cinema(40%) I would endure without subs for now.

My point is to integrate (phase wise and XOver slopes, etc) those 2 drivers. The 2420 is quite efficient(around 110db/watt/meter) and the woofer is around 97db. Electronic xover is the answer, I know but what kind of enclosure/xover type would make it the most for my money?

Finally I have a 604E 8Hpln(high power version of the Altec 604E) that I could use for a "center channel" in a home cinema. I know that this driver sounds harh with original passive xover but I'd like to hear it sounding "sweeter" because a point source(real coaxial) should be a good thing for center chanel. I don't have separate specs for this speaker, being that there is an efficient woofer(around 100db/w/meter) and moore for the mig/high driver(horn loaded).

I wouldn't like to throw away these mamooths:spend:

Going to the lowest possible freq. sans super big boxes would be preferable.:doh:

Finally a cost effective system, I already have a Crown DC-300 and Crown DC-150 for power amps.

Thanks for the reply:jiggy:


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

> Going to the lowest possible freq. sans super big boxes would be preferable


Since the JBL K-145 is a musical instrument speaker with no published T/S parameters, I can only suggest to build the box to the recommended volume suggested by JBL. Be aware that it probably won't be the optimum size for what you are trying to do. Your only other option is to test the speaker to see what the parameters are.


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Here is what I found for the k-145(limited specs):

Brand JBL	
Model K145	
Description Cast frame, paper cone and textile surround	
Range / type Woofer	
Typical use Undetermined 
Nom. diamerer	[inch]	15	
Vas	[Liters]	243,5	
Qts 0,29	
Qes 0,3	
Qms 6	
Fs	[Hz]	35	
Sensitivity	[dB]	97	
Max Power	[W]	150	
Power definition Thermally-limited maximum electrical input power	
Lower freq	[Hz] 
Upper freq	[Hz] 
Rec. Filter freq	[Hz] 
xmax	[mm]	5,08	
Moving mass	[g]	75	
Disp area	[m2]	0,079	
Disp Vol	[cm3] 
xdamage	[mm] 
Air gap	[mm] 
Coil height	[mm] 
Coil diameter	[mm] 
Cms	[mm/N] 
Rms	[N*s/m] 
Magnet weight	[gr] 
Magnet height	[mm] 
Magnet diameter	[mm] 
Magnet material	- 
Re	[ohm]	8,8	
Z	[ohm]	16	
L	[mH]	2,2	
Bl	[Tm]	21,7	
Magnetic flux	[Wb] 
Flux density	[T]	0,9	
Outer diam.	[mm] 
Bolt circle	[mm] 
Nr of bolts	[Nr] 
Cutout	[mm] 
Weight	[Kg] 
Height	[mm] 
Depth	[mm] 
Driver volume	[Liters] 
Frequency SPL / Z 
Date reviewed 2004-02-02	
Date added 2004-02-02	


And for the Altec 604-8HPLN that is a higher power than the 604-8H but the closest from the database:

Brand Altec Lansing	
Model 604-8H	
Description Cast frame, paper cone and textile surround	
Range / type Woofer 
Manufacturer Pre -1998 Altec Lansing 
Production status Discontinued	
Nom. diamerer	[inch]	15	
Vas	[Liters]	558,8	
Qts 0,2694	
Qes 0,28	
Qms 7,1	
Fs	[Hz]	28,1	
Sensitivity	[dB]	98	
Max Power	[W]	100	
Power definition 
Lower freq	[Hz] 
Upper freq	[Hz] 
Rec. Filter freq	[Hz] 
xmax	[mm]	3,8	
Moving mass	[g]	63,66	
Disp area	[m2]	0,089	
Disp Vol	[cm3] 
xdamage	[mm] 
Air gap	[mm] 
Coil height	[mm] 
Coil diameter	[mm] 
Cms	[mm/N] 
Rms	[N*s/m] 
Magnet weight	[gr] 
Magnet height	[mm] 
Magnet diameter	[mm] 
Magnet material	- 
Re	[ohm]	6,5	
Z	[ohm] 
L	[mH]	0,001	
Bl	[Tm]	16,153	
Magnetic flux	[Wb] 
Flux density	[T] 
Outer diam.	[mm] 
Bolt circle	[mm] 
Nr of bolts	[Nr] 
Cutout	[mm] 
Weight	[Kg] 
Height	[mm] 
Depth	[mm] 
Driver volume	[Liters] 
Frequency SPL / Z 
Date reviewed 2003-08-28	
Date added 2003-08-28
:coocoo:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Unfortunately, modeling either of those doesn't look so good below about 35-40Hz or so. Anything lower and you'll probably end up with loads of distortion if the driver survived its excursion limits.

Here are the two WinISD files if you would like to tinker with them for best performance.

View attachment Altec Lansing 604-8H.wdr


View attachment JBL K145.wdr


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Sonnie said:


> Unfortunately, modeling either of those doesn't look so good below about 35-40Hz or so. Anything lower and you'll probably end up with loads of distortion if the driver survived its excursion limits.
> 
> Here are the two WinISD files if you would like to tinker with them for best performance.
> 
> ...


Oups! I cannot read those files, I have a Mac:sad:

I'll find someone who has it:nerd:

For shure I don't expect to go really lower than 40Hz and I like the dynamics and the "tone" that theese woofers provide.:T

I know I need subs for later:yes:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

You will need WinISD.


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks Sonnie

I have a PC that my son uses.

I'll try to find that software.

By the way is it a freeware or it is part from a Window bundle?

Thanks again


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

It is freeware, there's a link to it as well as a Tutorial on it here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...wnload-detailed-guide-how-use-winisd-pro.html


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks Mike P

Seems that I will do lots of reading/learning


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

After you have WinISD installed on your computer you can download the files from post #6 and save then to the "Drivers" folder in WiniSD.


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks alot Mike P

Now on reading/installing/testing

Great!:sn:


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks everybody

I know I have some homework to do but you're very kind to give some help.

That is this forum from where I had the most helpful hints.

Long live and congrats to this forum:T


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

You'd be best served by trying to only extend the bass response to 50hz or maybe even 60hz probably in a bass reflex alignment and then adding a sub later on. Try some Winisd modeling and shoot for a response that gently slopes off a bit towards the low end cut off.

Do you have any measurement equipment? Microphone, spl meter, soundcard, etc? The best way is to measure the drivers using something like HolmImpulse(freeware) or similar and find out what they've got going on. Then you can start playing with crossover and level settings of the woofers and tweeters to get them to blend together. Are there published manufacturer response curves for any of your drivers? That would be something to start with at least.


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Ricci said:


> You'd be best served by trying to only extend the bass response to 50hz or maybe even 60hz probably in a bass reflex alignment and then adding a sub later on. Try some Winisd modeling and shoot for a response that gently slopes off a bit towards the low end cut off.
> 
> Do you have any measurement equipment? Microphone, spl meter, soundcard, etc? The best way is to measure the drivers using something like HolmImpulse(freeware) or similar and find out what they've got going on. Then you can start playing with crossover and level settings of the woofers and tweeters to get them to blend together. Are there published manufacturer response curves for any of your drivers? That would be something to start with at least.


Thanks for the tip about tuning Ricci.

I'll get mic(berhinger) and I have the audio interface(phantom power too)

I've heard about econowave waveguides that could sound smoother compared to the horn I have. I would prefer not to cross higher than 1,5Khz,

Someboby could guide me to wich one of the ewave to use with the JBL 2420 driver(bolt on) ?


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

maxserg said:


> I've searched this forum and I finally went in this forum section. Because I dont talk about subs but for the best use of what I get on hands. I have a pair of 15" JBL K-145, 2420 mid-high compression drivers, McCaully 9" horns(similar to the JBL 2391 accoustic lens) or the standard 20" (2390)folded lens.


The K145 is a very decent driver. It's an older design from before JBL did further research into motor design and improved them - it's sort of an old school 2225. The inductance is a bit high for my tastes (you can easily see the roll off in the attached FR simulation) to make it a two way, but it might be able to be done, you'll need to measure and check.

Similarly the 2420 is a good older driver design still well regarded. The 2390 horns I'm not so fond of. A better alternative would be one of the QSC 152 or larger JBL PT waveguides, which are quite cheap as spare parts (if interested, I'll add some links later).

As you have a DCX, 6th order ported is a possibility. The K145 section would be 90L net, tuned to 35Hz, with 1 4" port 5.7" long. Though the driver is only rated at 150W, it will take 250W peaks before just hitting Xmax. All the attachments are with 150W input.

Personally, I'd find another amp and some 2123, 2012 or AE TD10M and make it a 3 way.

FYI, the T/S for all the JBL cone drivers can be found here.



maxserg said:


> I also have (center channel?) a 15" Altec 604E 8HPLN that could be used. I already have passive X-Overs but I would probably go for active X-Over(Berrhinger)


That would work. It's a good driver, but it may sound different enough to the mains to be noticeable. Or not. Costs some time to build it and find out, but not much more.



maxserg said:


> Have a modified Crown DC-300 (210 Watts/Ch/8Ohms)and a D-150 amp(75WCh/8Ohms).
> 
> I know that this question cannot represent a great deal of enthusiasm but who knows. Theese things are collecting dust. I would like to be an environnemental friendly guy:boxer:


I agree, use them. They have the potential to be a very good system.

I'm off to bed (nearly 2am), so if you want more info, I'll do it tomorrow.


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## Derry (Apr 10, 2010)

I had the same dilemma with my old (but good) Altec Voice of Theaters and AR2As,, my main set up used was Def Tec with 7002 as fronts and a CLR2500 center with BP-2X sides,, wanted to expand to a 7.1 and after I purchased my Marantz SR9600 I used the AR2s for the sides and moved the BP-2X to the backs,, after reading the Marantz book I find it will support dual fronts so I now use the Altec Voice of Theaters with the Def Tec 7002s for my front L & R,, sounds like I am setting inside the action,, the AR2As for the sides are also amazing,, when there is bass to those channels they can really pump it through and the mids and highs are crystal clear,, 

I was going to consider reworking the Altecs with a different woofer and change the cabinet for more bass as they drop off fairly fast in the mid 30hz,, had others suggest leaving them alone as they are such good speakers and add a sub for that really low bass, why mess up a good speaker,, even though Def Tec says the 7002 are good to 30hz level with the internal amp they still could not offer the impact of good LFE,, 

so I left my two sets of aged but good speakers alone and added a SVS pb 13 ultra to handle the bass I was seeking,, 

Derry


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

A9X said:


> As you have a DCX, 6th order ported is a possibility. The K145 section would be 90L net, tuned to 35Hz, with 1 4" port 5.7" long. Though the driver is only rated at 150W, it will take 250W peaks before just hitting Xmax. All the attachments are with 150W input.
> 
> Personally, I'd find another amp and some 2123, 2012 or AE TD10M and make it a 3 way.


Thanks A9X for all your contributions!

Would I gain in benefit to have bigger box? I have room for 150L net

Scenario 1:

The bigger JBL waveguide could give better dispersion at lower x-over point around 900Hz to 1KHz? If so I would be interested to get them. The 2420 driver itself can be crossed at low as 800Hz(12db/oct).
This gives me more chances to stay in a two-way system because I don't know the K-145 dispersions carracteristics at 1KHz. The higher I crossover the narrower is the dispersion.

Scenario 2:

The smaller JBL waveguide to crossover higher, around 2K to 3K and using the 2123 as low-mid/mid so the ten inches wil have it's own (sealed) enclosure and how big it will depend at wich low cut freq. being decided, and all of this will have to match the dispersions of all components. But how costs a pair of 2123? Having room to put isolated chamber for the 2123 is easily possible taking in account that you give me 90L for the K145.

So much questions:scratch:


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

maxserg said:


> Thanks A9X for all your contributions!


My pleasure. When I saw the components, it reminded me of my sides and rears that I am building. Later today I may have the drawings finalised, but the configuration is set; JBL2225 in 55L net, ported at 40Hz, 6th order, crossing to a 2123 at 300Hz and to an 18Sound ND1090 and B&C DE250 on JBL PT waveguides at about 1k8.



maxserg said:


> Would I gain in benefit to have bigger box? I have room for 150L net


Assuming the 150L doesn't include the volume taken by the driver ports and bracing, you get something like this (see attachments for X and PAS).










Note there are 2 x 4" ports 7.5" long, and you will need a HPF to protect from over excursion with movies at high level if you are not using subs. The 6th order I showed earlier already has the LPF as that's part of it's design.

If you are going to use subs and an 80Hz xover to them, sealed with a whiff of EQ at the bottom would give an F3 of 80Hz (no EQ=90Hz) in any size from 41L to 120L. 

For non sub use, them either ported would be best.



maxserg said:


> Scenario 1:
> 
> The bigger JBL waveguide could give better dispersion at lower x-over point around 900Hz to 1KHz? If so I would be interested to get them. The 2420 driver itself can be crossed at low as 800Hz(12db/oct).
> This gives me more chances to stay in a two-way system because I don't know the K-145 dispersions carracteristics at 1KHz. The higher I crossover the narrower is the dispersion.


Those old horns have their fanbase, but they sound like horns to me, at least the couple I have heard. There has been 40 years of development here and later flares are generally better in my opinion.



maxserg said:


> Scenario 2:
> 
> The smaller JBL waveguide to crossover higher, around 2K to 3K and using the 2123 as low-mid/mid so the ten inches wil have it's own (sealed) enclosure and how big it will depend at wich low cut freq. being decided, and all of this will have to match the dispersions of all components. But how costs a pair of 2123? Having room to put isolated chamber for the 2123 is easily possible taking in account that you give me 90L for the K145.


2123 can be found quite cheaply if you're patient. Jammin Jersey usually has some but only one ATM. Other options are the AE TD10M which is a better driver (I have 4 ea, 2123 and 10M) and I'd go with this at $244/driver rather than $200/ea for a secondhand 2123. The B&C 8NDL51 is also another fine driver and much cheaper (datasheet at bottom of page).

A mid would need to go into a closed back chamber, but most here work nicely in <10L net, so they don't take a lot of space.

WRT dispersion, you ideally want the MF and HF to have the same dispersion at xover - not hard and there's some wiggle room. 



maxserg said:


> So much questions:scratch:


You don't ask, you don't get answers.


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

A9X said:


> Those old horns have their fanbase, but they sound like horns to me, at least the couple I have heard. There has been 40 years of development here and later flares are generally better in my opinion.


Thanks A9X you are patient

I dont want to re-use those old horns and as you mention I found myself reluctant from theese. I want just keep myself away from hearing PA sound or any horn colouration in my house. In my question I asked if one of the big waveguide(not horn) from JBL would make a better route to a 2-way system. It would probably integrate better at lower x-over point.

That being said I see the benefit of getting a 10 inches woof/mid in this config cause of dispersion(if understand well...)

Sorry for my bad formulation, sorry for my bad english:blink:


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

maxserg said:


> Sorry for my bad formulation, sorry for my bad english:blink:


Your English is fine; I guessed you were a native French speaker form your location.

I'm sorry for the slow follow up, but work and social commitments have delayed. I'll reply tomorrow.


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

A9X said:


> Your English is fine; I guessed you were a native French speaker form your location.
> 
> I'm sorry for the slow follow up, but work and social commitments have delayed. I'll reply tomorrow.


Yes I'm french but don't make native speakers

No problems for the delay I just want to build my project this summer:heehee:


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

I typed out a long reply before I went to bed last night and FF crashed before I hit post, so this is the abridged version. I'm also laying on the couch (with my poodle lying on top of me) with a pinched cyatic nerve so it's not as well written as I hoped.



maxserg said:


> Thanks A9X you are patient


Thanks, but I can hear the laughter of those who know me from here. Patient is not a word commonly associated with me: brilliant and dashingly handsome, yes, patient, no.



maxserg said:


> I dont want to re-use those old horns and as you mention I found myself reluctant from theese. I want just keep myself away from hearing PA sound or any horn colouration in my house.


Sell them, and use the money to fund this project.


maxserg said:


> In my question I asked if one of the big waveguide(not horn) from JBL would make a better route to a 2-way system. It would probably integrate better at lower x-over point.


Theoretically, yes. The problem is that there are few WG's/horns that will work well that low, are of reasonable size and available for purchase. The big QSC's look pretty good but I'm still not convinced they will control the pattern low enough for a really good match to most 15's. That said, I've heard Dave's speakers and thought they were very good, but the only common component would be the QSC's. I'd put the TD15M several generations better than the K145.

My other concern is around the K145. I've yet to see any measurements of it working well that high (1khz) and am sceptical that it will work well there. It is a very old design and JBL have learnt a lot in the intervening years. Wayne Parnham at Pi speakers uses the later 2226 crossing to an Eminence H290 horn at about 1k

I've added a lot of links in this thread. You might find them interesting reading.


maxserg said:


> That being said I see the benefit of getting a 10 inches woof/mid in this config cause of dispersion(if understand well...)


You're correct. One of the key ingreditants to matching a direct radiator with a horn is getting the dispersion approximately matched at xover to get a good power response. Another reason for suggesting an additional mid is that I'm confident the K145 will work in the sub 300Hz region (as will almost all well deigned 15" drivers), so the mid could bridge the gap between the 15 running too high and the WG/CD too low.



maxserg said:


> No problems for the delay I just want to build my project this summer:heehee:


That still gives some time for thinking about the design before you physically tackle them. Like the old proverb, "measure twice, cut once", I design many times, build once. With speakers there are so many interacting variables that I consider them all and the designs vary around a bit, refining before finished.

Here's a suggestion; build the speakers as a multi box design like some of the Focals. Try it with the K145 and 2420 and WG. If you're not completely happy, add the mid driver later in another small separate enclosure.

This gives an idea of the look I'm talking about.


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

A9X said:


> My other concern is around the K145. I've yet to see any measurements of it working well that high (1khz) and am sceptical that it will work well there. It is a very old design and JBL have learnt a lot in the intervening years. Wayne Parnham at Pi speakers uses the later 2226 crossing to an Eminence H290 horn at about 1k
> 
> I've added a lot of links in this thread. You might find them interesting reading.
> You're correct. One of the key ingreditants to matching a direct radiator with a horn is getting the dispersion approximately matched at xover to get a good power response. Another reason for suggesting an additional mid is that I'm confident the K145 will work in the sub 300Hz region (as will almost all well deigned 15" drivers), so the mid could bridge the gap between the 15 running too high and the WG/CD too low.
> ...


Sorry for the delay

Many thanks A9X

This gives me the time to find money and find those 10 inches. I bet that the lowest mh from the 10 incher will give me the higher crossover point (not absolute freq response but dispertion((polar)) for this driver) then it will give better chances to the econowave horn to work inside the limits of it's own. Theorically the 10 inches with a small vc diameter would give me a wider dispertion at higher frequency in the mid-band region (regardless of inductance)?:doh:

And by the way the K145 has an underhung motor with a 4 inches vc. and 2.2mh inductance...


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

I wish for a "smooth" sound with "dynamics" to dy for!

Am-I in the good direction?


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

maxserg said:


> Sorry for the delay
> 
> Many thanks A9X


My pleasure.



maxserg said:


> This gives me the time to find money and find those 10 inches. I bet that the lowest mh from the 10 incher will give me the higher crossover point (not absolute freq response but dispertion((polar)) for this driver) then it will give better chances to the econowave horn to work inside the limits of it's own. Theorically the 10 inches with a small vc diameter would give me a wider dispertion at higher frequency in the mid-band region (regardless of inductance)?:doh:


The native inductance of the driver will certainly affect the roll off at the top end of it's range, but the cone size mainly determines the polar pattern, with the shape of the cone (straight sided vs curved) having some influence too. You are correct re the Ewave flare; ideally you want the driver and flare to be producing the same dispersion at xover. So the mid needs to be able to go high enough, with well controlled breakup above that and the flare needs to hold pattern control down to xover. A nice synopsis is presented here and note his comments on the 2123. 



maxserg said:


> And by the way the K145 has an underhung motor with a 4 inches vc. and 2.2mh inductance...


I'm pretty sure the K145 is overhung, ie the coil is longer than the gap as most pro drivers are. The highish inductance is one of the reasons I don't suggest trying to use it up to 1k.



maxserg said:


> I wish for a "smooth" sound with "dynamics" to dy for!
> 
> Am-I in the good direction?


I am taking the same path so I believe the direction is correct.


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

A9X said:


> 2123 can be found quite cheaply if you're patient. Jammin Jersey usually has some but only one ATM. Other options are the AE TD10M which is a better driver (I have 4 ea, 2123 and 10M) and I'd go with this at $244/driver rather than $200/ea for a secondhand 2123. The B&C 8NDL51 is also another fine driver and much cheaper (datasheet at bottom of page).


Hi A9X

So if I want a good driver cheaper than the JBL 2123 or the AER AE T10M, BMC is your favorite, but does Emminence make some good 8 to 10 inches drivers for the intended use, I mean as you know efficiency and cone shape and inductance etc. I tell you this because I don't have very much money for now but I don't want to sacrifice on result. I don't know if BNC components are available here in Canada (Quebec) but I think I can order Emminence components here. (I know I can order from the web but I prefer to talk to the guy and know in advance the net prize in CAN$$)

On a related question, does all those speakers have available recone kits:scratch:

By the way you've convinced me to go with a low-mid-mid cone speaker. More work but it will be more satisfiying soud-wise.:sn:

And I keep in mind the option of having separate cabinets for each components

Thanks A9X


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

maxserg said:


> Hi A9X
> 
> So if I want a good driver cheaper than the JBL 2123 or the AER AE T10M, BMC is your favorite, but does Emminence make some good 8 to 10 inches drivers for the intended use, I mean as you know efficiency and cone shape and inductance etc.


I've got a pair of Beta 10 and they're not that great for home use, nowhere near the JBL or AE. The Deltas don't look all that different, and the Deltalite 2510 which some of the Ewavers like is as much as the B&C.



maxserg said:


> I tell you this because I don't have very much money for now but I don't want to sacrifice on result.


I understand that all too well my friend. Funds at Casa Torana are non existent at the moment and I'm itching to get some stuff built. My honest suggestion for you is to save for what you can reasonably afford or scrounge ebay.ca and/or Craigslist for some local sources of drivers. You can always PM me an auction # and ask - PM suggested as not to notify someone else reading of something you're interested in. 



maxserg said:


> I don't know if BNC components are available here in Canada (Quebec) but I think I can order Emminence components here. (I know I can order from the web but I prefer to talk to the guy and know in advance the net prize in CAN$$)


I checked on the B&C website, and the distributor for Canuckistan is listed as.

B&C SPEAKERS NA LCC

220 W. Parkway
Unit 11
Pompton Plains, NJ 07444 - USA

Tel.+1 973 248 0955
Fax:+1 973 248 0956
Email: [email protected]
Web: www.bcspeakers.com

I'm not sure of the import rules, duties etc into Canada, so maybe you'd better check and see what you'll be up for. Pro Sound Service have been excellent to deal with, so I'd suggest emailing them and asking for a quote including shipping via USPS to you for a pair of 8NDL51, then add any extra duty etc (if applicable) to get a final cost.



maxserg said:


> On a related question, does all those speakers have available recone kits:scratch:


Almost all pro drivers have recone kits available, but I've never needed one even for PA, let alone home use. The only way I can see you damaging a mid cone at home is someone dancing wildly at a party and kicking it in, or catastrophic amp failure, both highly unlikely. On second thoughts, I watched 'Phil The Alien' last week, and am not so sure about the dancing any more.



maxserg said:


> By the way you've convinced me to go with a low-mid-mid cone speaker. More work but it will be more satisfiying soud-wise.:sn:


_*I*_ believe it is the best approach and I hope you do so too.



maxserg said:


> And I keep in mind the option of having separate cabinets for each components


I see two advantages; potentially an easier build with smaller units, and the potential to angle the drivers to where you want them in the listening position.

BTW, dunno if I mentioned it before, the Focal speaker pic I linked was only to show the 3 box set up. A WMT would be how I'd approach it but the WTM might also be good. Easy to experiment with the separate enclosures.


maxserg said:


> Thanks A9X


No worries.


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

The 2420 JBL driver is a bolt-on driver. Does QSC or JBL have a waveguide made for that or there is a need for a troat adapter?


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

maxserg said:


> The 2420 JBL driver is a bolt-on driver. Does QSC or JBL have a waveguide made for that or there is a need for a troat adapter?


The rectangular QSC used in Dave's speakers (thread linked earlier) is bolt on as he is using Beyma CP380M. Not sure about most of the JBL as I only have the original 90° x 40° PT1010 which is screw on. Use adaptors if you need to. Zilch uses the PAudio or Selenuim ones, and when I email later I'll ask him about the rest of the JBLs as I haven't really been following the monster Ewave thread at AK.

Another option are the 18Sound XT1086.


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

JBL 2420... old stuff I know. Thanks, soooo much research on the web just to know that I won't miss it!


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## Syd26147 (Jul 4, 2008)

> no published T/S parameters,


 For future reference:
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=1075&doctype=3

( I'm curious as to how well this drivers T/S parms match the published? especially a driver of this age )

Syd


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## Zilch (May 18, 2010)

The QSC waveguides are 2-hole bolt-on, whereas, if I recall correctly, 2420 may just be 3-hole?

With a throat adapter, 2420 will mate with the thread-on JBL PT waveguide we use in EconoWave. If you're going 3-way, that's the one I'd use, but you'll also have to provide support for the driver in your cab design; it's too heavy to just hang off the back.

It's been a couple of years since I ran LE85, the consumer equivalent of 2420, on that waveguide, but I do recall it being a remarkably sweet combination. That's in my "Quick and Dirty" thread on Lansing Heritage Forum. There's a "Contents" thread that may link to it over there, as well. Just for kicks, you might try that combo 2-way immediately; the waveguides are less than $10 each, and Selenium throat adapters about $5. I can virtually guarantee that, with the proper HF comp, it'll play better than the old exponentials.

Re: K/E 145, I don't know how high they'll play gracefully. Have them, but never tried it; easy enough to determine using an active crossover and just dialing the frequency up and down in the region of interest. Generally speaking, however, running a 15" woofer above 1 kHz runs into directivity issues, and a quality midbass driver's going to provide better mids than just about any 15" woofer. :yes:

[Edit: The big 2352 biradial is among my favorites, and will certainly do what you want 2-way, BUT, they're decidedly not "econo...." ]


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Zilch said:


> The QSC waveguides are 2-hole bolt-on, whereas, if I recall correctly, 2420 may just be 3-hole?
> 
> With a throat adapter, 2420 will mate with the thread-on JBL PT waveguide we use in EconoWave. If you're going 3-way, that's the one I'd use, but you'll also have to provide support for the driver in your cab design; it's too heavy to just hang off the back.


Thanks Zilch

I've made a search on the JBL website and the PT waveguides are not listed. This is the PT 1010 that would fit for a tree-way system and where could-I find/order them? (plus the selenium throat adapter)


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## Zilch (May 18, 2010)

No, it's the 1" thread-on version of PT-F95HF, JBL Pro Part# 338800-001.

Parts Express sells a Pyle knockoff, PH-612, which may work, though it doesn't like the B&C DE250 with a throat adapter.

PT-H1010 is a 12" square waveguide with a 1.5" throat, and 10X the cost....


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Zilch said:


> No, it's the 1" thread-on version of PT-F95HF, JBL Pro Part# 338800-001.


So I can order from JBl but I guess there is a "twist" to get this information?


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## Zilch (May 18, 2010)

maxserg said:


> So I can order from JBl but I guess there is a "twist" to get this information?


Yes, the "twist" being that they won't ship to Canada, and the cost from your dealer will be higher. Best bet is to have a USA pal order them for you:

http://www.jblproservice.com/forms/parts_order1.html


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Zilch said:


> Yes, the "twist" being that they won't ship to Canada, and the cost from your dealer will be higher. Best bet is to have a USA pal order them for you:
> 
> http://www.jblproservice.com/forms/parts_order1.html


Thanks Zilch

1- The jbl waveguide is a rectangular wg or conical. My listening room ceiling is from left at 9 feet and to the right about 13 feet high. The distance between the left and right speakers(measured at center of the woofer/mid/tweeter) is roughly 5'6". I'd like to have a wide sweet spot because I'll be around 6' to 8 feet from the speakers, and the side wall (from the closest right wall) will be about 3,5'. I don't think that first reflection will be a problem.

2- The Selenium ADM25-25 Horn Adapter is the good part?

3- USA pal, is it a kind of US paypal?

Thanks


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## Zilch (May 18, 2010)

The JBL is rectangular.

Yes, that Selenium. Frankly, I'd fab an adapter plate for 2420 from 1/16" sheetmetal and use the bolt-on QSC if I could get those instead.

"Pal" = friend. You need a USA address for JBL Pro Parts to ship to.


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Zilch said:


> Frankly, I'd fab an adapter plate for 2420 from 1/16" sheetmetal and use the bolt-on QSC if I could get those instead.
> 
> "Pal" = friend. You need a USA address for JBL Pro Parts to ship to.


Ok what part number to order from QSC and can I see images of the waveguide?:huh: (I'm begining to have too much info:dumbcrazy

How would you do the custom throat adapter?

Thanks


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## Zilch (May 18, 2010)

http://www.qscstore.com/hpr152hfhorn.html

Pic here: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?p=1626379#post1626379

Driver mount shown below.

Adapter plate: 1/16" thick sheetmetal w/1" hole in the center. Two holes get countersunk flat-head screws to mate (as studs) with the QSC waveguide. Three holes from the opposite side mount the plate to 2420. Countersunk flat-heads may not be required for that, depending upon how the patterns line up.


*Edit:* Your 2420 may have originally hung on the factory bracket in the bottom pic. I cannot get the hole patterns to line up, so it's flat-heads both sides....


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks for the photos Zilch

How do you fold the plate(2nd photo)?

I can't figure how to fold/cut it

Many thanks


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## Zilch (May 18, 2010)

That's done by sheet metal fabricators with a press brake.

Not an issue here, unless you want to use the adapter plate for support as well; the adapter would just be the rightmost ~4 inches of that factory bracket.


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Zilch said:


> http://www.qscstore.com/hpr152hfhorn.html
> 
> Pic here: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?p=1626379#post1626379
> 
> ...


Hi Zilch

The link of QSC is dead I guesss.

I can have the JBL WG going though a dealer from where I live. I wait for the price...

Using the selenium troat adapter, it would work. How is the transition from the driver(2420)/troat/JBL WG? Is it seamless?


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

I dont konw if Zilch comes here sometimes...


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

I was surfing on the net and saw something that maybe could be interesting(dunno about the mounting for the 2420 but... http://www.toutlehautparleur.com/paudio/paudio-ph230-p-1714.html

For the price I have no idea!


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## Zilch (May 18, 2010)

Contact the QSC distributor in your area; they can obtain the waveguides for you.

I never measured the 2420 on the JBL waveguide with a Selenium throat adapter, or built anything. It sounded good is all....


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

Thanks Zilch

I've found SF Marketting, Montreal distributor for QSC.


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