# Will adding this Subwoofer help or hinder my Setup?



## mademperor (Jan 5, 2010)

My dad offered to give me a Polk Audio PSW110 Subwoofer he only used for 1 week for free.
_If I use this free sub, I plan on buying a Behringer Feedback Destroyer (Parametric Equalizer)
_
Current Setup:
Front: Paradigm Reference Studio 100s V.2 (around $2,000 a pair)
Center: Paradigm Reference Stuio CC
Surround: Older Polk Audios
No Subwoofer atm
Receiver: Onkyo TX-DS797 ($900 Receiver in 2004)


Free Subwoofer
Polk Audio PSW110 ($250 msrp) 10" 100w RMS


*Worth adding, or stay 2.0/5.0 channel for now?*


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Welcome to the Shack! 
Its way better than nothing, It most certainly wont hurt. However I'm not really sure if buying a Behringer Feedback Destroyer is really necessary given the size of the sub. How large is the space your going to use it in?


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

I agree with Tony this is way better than nothing. 

I think it might be fun to get a Behringer Feedback Destroyer too. It doesn't cost a lot and can really help with performance. Plus it's something you can use for years to come. :T


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## mademperor (Jan 5, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Welcome to the Shack!
> Its way better than nothing, It most certainly wont hurt. However I'm not really sure if buying a Behringer Feedback Destroyer is really necessary given the size of the sub. How large is the space your going to use it in?


Thank you. 

I plan on getting a better sub in the future, maybe a Dayton MKIII 12"

Room is 11 x 14ft Speakers are along the long wall.



I am just worried that adding a $250 sub to a system that has Fronts that cost 10x as much would just bring it down.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

mademperor said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I plan on getting a better sub in the future, maybe a Dayton MKIII 12"
> 
> ...


Well there is one way to find out. :T

Remember to put the sub in you prime listening position room. Play your favorite bass music and crawl around until you hear the best bass. The put the sub there.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

With an 11x14 room the Polk will do fine just dont expect earth shattering bass from it as the Polk does not go below 20Hz and not at very high SPL. The advantage to using the sub is that even though your mains are capable of going into the range of a sub it is best to let a real sub do the job of handling the lows below 60hz as this releases the receiver of the load of driving your mains so hard giving less distortion and cleaner bass.


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## mademperor (Jan 5, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> With an 11x14 room the Polk will do fine just dont expect earth shattering bass from it as the Polk does not go below 20Hz and not at very high SPL. The advantage to using the sub is that even though your mains are capable of going into the range of a sub it is best to let a real sub do the job of handling the lows below 60hz as this releases the receiver of the load of driving your mains so hard giving less distortion and cleaner bass.


I was told, that since I have high quality fronts that I should leave them as "Large" 
Does that sound right?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

mademperor said:


> I was told, that since I have high quality fronts that I should leave them as "Large"
> Does that sound right?


Thats really your choice. Your fronts can not go as low as the sub so it may be completely un-necessary and you can cause issues with cancellation of some of the frequencies. But give it a try and see.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

mademperor said:


> I was told, that since I have high quality fronts that I should leave them as "Large"
> Does that sound right?


I suggest you try it both ways an pick your preference.


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## mademperor (Jan 5, 2010)

So I have the Polk Audio PSW110 subwoofer now, but I'm unsure if it is a benefit or hinderence to my system.
(See 1st post for system specs)
I have a Galaxy Digital SPL meter & Tripod I've been using to take some measurements (I also have a Behringer BFD, that I have not used yet)

I tried some *Test Tones*, I set my sub equal with my mains @ 50hz and ran tones from 28hz to 125hz and compared SPL with and without the sub.


Tone - 2.0 / 2.1
28hz - w/o 75 with sub 63
31hz - w/o 74 with sub 67
36hz - w/o 74 with sub 71
40hz - w/o 74 with sub 70
50hz - w/o 75 with sub 75 Starting tone, I set both equal at this tone.
63hz - w/o 77 with sub 75
71hz - w/o 79 with sub 74
80hz - w/o 86 with sub 77
89hz - w/o 77 with sub 70
100hz - w/o 68 with sub 70
111hz - w/o 67 with sub 66
125hz - w/o 75 with sub 71

Thoughts on those readings?
Are there other tests I can run to determine if the sub is helping or not?
(I did a listening subjective test, and it sounds similar lol)

--Using REW with my sub I can see the SPL drops around 30hz with this sub depending on where I am in the room. I have not used REW with my mains, nor do I really know how lol.

EDIT: I attached the REW of my Polk Audio Sub. (Uncorrected)


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Does the Polk sub have a phase adjustment? I suggest turning that and see if your subs response changes I'm thinking your mains and sub are cancelling each other out. I am assuming the SPL meter was placed at you listening position?


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## mademperor (Jan 5, 2010)

I took some new measurements in response to some of the replies. I still the Fronts & Sub equal @ 50hz but increased SPL to 80db this time. 
SPL meter used is a Galaxy 140 on a Tripod.
The crossover is NOT adjustable other then changing Fronts from Small to Large when a Sub is enabled.

I did a comparison now with Fronts set to Both Small & Large and Phase 0 and Phase 180
(See my 1st post for system details and last post for previous values)

Freq - No Sub//Sub-Frt Sm // Lg ## Sm//Lg
--------------------- Phase 180 ## Phase 0
028hz - w/o 79 with sub 67 // 67 ## 68 // 68
031hz - w/o 77 with sub 71 // 71 ## 74 // 74
036hz - w/o 78 with sub 75 // 75 ## 77 // 77
040hz - w/o 77 with sub 75 // 75 ## 79 // 79
050hz - w/o 80 with sub 80 // 80 ## 84 // 84
063hz - w/o 82 with sub 81 // 80 ## 86 // 86
071hz - w/o 91 with sub 79 // 79 ## 87 // 87
080hz - w/o 82 with sub 82 // 82 ## 94 // 94
089hz - w/o 82 with sub 78 // 78 ## 87 // 87
100hz - w/o 73 with sub 68 // 68 ## 80 // 80
111hz - w/o 67 with sub 72 // 72 ## 67 // 67
125hz - w/o 79 with sub 76 // 76 ## 79 // 79

From these numbers I suspect:
--Phase 0 is where I want to be since it equals a SPL gain at all Freq
--Setting my Fronts to either Small or Large is irrelevant for me, maybe this setting is broken.
--This sub sucks compared to my mains, since it won't go as deep as the mains. (See rew in my last post)

Thoughts? 
Should I keep this sub, or go w/o? 
Any other Objective tests I can do?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Dont give up yet, Where do you have the sub located? Placing it in the listening position and then crawling around the outside of the room listening for the best response and putting it there is the fastest way to get the best placement. Corner placement is usually the best option but not always.


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## mademperor (Jan 5, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Dont give up yet, Where do you have the sub located? Placing it in the listening position and then crawling around the outside of the room listening for the best response and putting it there is the fastest way to get the best placement. Corner placement is usually the best option but not always.


My options are limited. It is currently in a corner, which was the best of the 3 available positions. It is next to my front right, on the inside of the wall.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

And you have tried setting your fronts to small? (I know you said you have but it seems odd) is the crossover adjustable on the receiver you have? I'm finding it hard to believe that your mains are out preforming the sub or at least there is no improvement. What are you using for you test tones?


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## mademperor (Jan 5, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> And you have tried setting your fronts to small?


yes, look at the chart i posted above (2nd set of values)



> is the crossover adjustable on the receiver you have?


no. The only option is Sub (on/off) front/center/surround (Small/large) <-- setting makes no difference as confirmed by last chart I made.


> I'm finding it hard to believe that your mains are out preforming the sub or at least there is no improvement. What are you using for you test tones?


test tones are the ones directly from this site under downloads. I would have thought adding the sub would at least help SPL (at the cost of quality of bass), however it seems that is not even the case.

_(On a side note, I called Onkyo about the Small/Large issue and if they could confirm what the cross over point was, even though it isn't changeable.... both the tech guy and his manager were about as clueless as a K-Mart Employee that works in clothing lol.)_


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Usually the crossover is 80Hz so I will assume that is the case here. Do you have any large furniture near (less than 3ft) the subs location like a sofa?


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## mademperor (Jan 5, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Usually the crossover is 80Hz so I will assume that is the case here. Do you have any large furniture near (less than 3ft) the subs location like a sofa?


no, the nearest things are: wall / wall / Paradigm Speaker then bookcase, couch is like 7ft away.


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## mademperor (Jan 5, 2010)

I bought a SVS PC12-NSD 

Goodbye PSW110 Polk Audio. It's been fun, but you were pathetic :wave:



http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pc12_nsd.cfm


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Well, Thats a *HUGE* step up. Enjoy your new sub:T


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

You will be pleasantly surprised by the difference! 

I went from a Polk PSW-650 to the SVS 20-39PCi, which was almost the same thing as the NSD, and it was NOT a subtle difference! Enjoy your new sub once you get it!


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