# The Official HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray Thread



## Sonnie

HD-DVD or Blu-ray... which one? :dontknow: Who will win the format war? :boxer: Can both succeed? onder: Why and what are your thoughts? :nerd:

It seems as though several threads get side tracked into an HD-DVD vs Blu-ray discussion... and rightly so for several of them because the thread has to do with one or the other making a move in some way or another. But, I think it would be interesting to have an official dedicated thread to learn the opinions of those who favor HD-DVD, Blu-ray or both formats. 

Personally, I have chosen to start out with HD-DVD simply because the players are less expensive and they have had more titles that appeal to me thus far. However, I am on the look out for a Blu-ray player as soon as the prices get reasonable enough and/or I may consider a dual format player. I have actually purchased Blu-ray titles.

As far as which one I favor... at this point, it's HD-DVD, but that could change. 

I really hate to make a call on who will win... I don't really know. 


...

*WARNING! Keep the Forum Rules in mind before you post! Those with an attitude need not even post. Let's keep it civil and respectable...* :T


...


----------



## wbassett

I honestly feel this recent move by Paramount and Dream Works Animation is just the beginning.

In Europe HD DVD is bigger than Bluray, so I think they are looking at the big picture and not just the US market. 

I'm not so sure that the PS3 should be removed from the total list of BD players though. From the people I talk to, it seems like 50% get it for a game console and the other 50% as a Bluray player. So to be fair, just talk half of whatever the PS3 sales are and add that to the total number of BD players.

Still, I think Bluray is now in a game of catch up. Even if they have a sale and slash their prices by 50% for a Black Friday sale, they still may not be lower than what the A2 is going for right now, and definitely won't be able to beat any Black Friday specials that are bound to be out. Plus we all know Sony won't be cutting price by 50%. So this is definitely a tough one for Sony at this point in time.

Add in people are waiting for 2.0 and it gives HD DVD even more time to pull ahead.

If one or two more studios make the move to HD DVD exclusive, and after the Thanksgiving weekend sales, this really could be over in six to eight months. BD players and movies will of course still be available, but if it unfolds like this we'll see few new releases and just remaining inventory will be left for purchase.

This is just something I heard so take this part totally with a grain of salt, but I heard Block Buster might be reconsidering their Bluray only rental plans and end up carrying both now that more studios are moving over. If that is true (again just hearsay at this point) that would also be a big change in the tides.


----------



## bobgpsr

Sonnie,

Can you make a public poll? :dontknow:

Not that we have to identify posters like on that "other" forum. 

I voted HD DVD for the win (in 3 years or so). Complex optical pickup and replication are long term cost problems for BD, IMHO.

Using a game player as a Trojan horse won't win it anymore. BD will survive for PS3 game media usage though.

Bob :hide:


----------



## wbassett

I have both Bob, so no need to hide under the chair


----------



## Wayde

Fascinating topic 

I am not a Microsoft fanboy! However I admit I have some bias against Sony since Beta, SACD and now Blu-ray. 

I really think it’s obvious HD DVD was ready first. HD DVD had a lot of early advantages in price and picture quality. But that’s really leveled out lately. 

I now have a blu-ray player and I must admit it’s awesome! I have done side by side comparisons of HD DVD and BD and I can see no difference. But when using BD lossless 5.1 soundtrack, I can certainly hear a difference. 

There are some serious problems with Blu-ray right now, I honestly think seems pushed into production before it was ready. But honestly, I don’t care which format “wins”, I just want the most movies I can get in HD. 

That’s why I’m going to buy this Samsung combo player when it’s available. BD-UP5000

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/official...r-plus-ht+bd2-blu+ray-home-theater-282313.php


----------



## <^..^>Smokey Joe

I think this battle is actually holding back the progression of Hi Def especially in Non US countries, the consumer who remembers the VHS v Beta is seeing no clear winner and waiting. New consumers are going to be won by marketing, good deals, ie PS3 and Xbox being the underpin to cheap format players before buying a dedicated player.

The major issue in waiting is that it will drag on for a long time, the players being big and powerful can afford to drag it out, lose money just to get market penetration.

The consumer to some degree is being fooled into thinking one is better than the other just by how much storage space it can handle. The reality is the larger of the 2, Blueray is sticking to mpeg2 as a compression. Where as HD-DVD is using VC1 or Mpeg4 compression. The result of these compression types is that VC1 and Mpeg4 is that the need only half the space as mepeg2.

Does that make it better? You bet! 
Because HD-DVD storage is greater than half of Blurray the HD-DVD only has to be 1% less compressed to have less compression artifacts. Since the difference is far greater that there is a clear viewable difference in quality.

The better compression actually can have rollon effects right along the video chain and DTV broadcasts. Better bandwidth usage all round, which is the quality limter in the real world. 

Who will win though?
The main issue here is that the average consumer is confused, those consumers don't frequent these websites like this one but head to the retail store looking for the best deal. Won over by price and marketing, which doesn't really equate to quality.

Once upon a time the consumer had 2 inputs to make a TV go, power and RF.

Now we have, RF, composite, svideo, RGB, DVI, component, HDMI 1.1 1.2 1.3, then have 2 or 3 of these and you can 7 or more different connects with multibles, add terms 720p, 1080i , 1080p, widescreen, 16:9 1.78:1, 2.35:1, plasma, LCD, Lcos, projectors...and the list goes on.

When I talk to people at work over coffee breaks about all this and quiery them on their knowledge they list portions of all of the above with relationships that are completely wrong....why? Marketing hype, sales pitch call it what you like.

These people who are confused are the ones that you could call brighter than the average spark too, being Professors of their respective fields.

For me there is 1 clear leader, it just that it has nothing to do with the medium that it is packaged on.


----------



## Sonnie

Yes... I can make this public... probably a good idea. However, the proper etiquette is to strip the poll and ask for a re-vote. Therefore, if you have voted, your vote has been stripped and you will need to vote again if you don't mind your vote being public.


----------



## JCD

> I am not a Microsoft fanboy! However I admit I have some bias against Sony since Beta, SACD and now Blu-ray.


Just as a reminder, the Blu Ray format was developed by the "Blu Ray Disc Association". The current Board of Directors consists of:

Apple Computer, Inc.
Dell Inc.
Hewlett Packard Company
Hitachi, Ltd.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Royal Philips Electronics
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
TDK Corporation
Thomson Multimedia
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney Pictures

Although Sony is probably the biggest player, I think, to a large extent, they've learned from their past mistakes and that's why most of the players tried to build a consensus before they rolled out the format. Toshiba, at least to me, has been going the maverick route championing their HD format.

I think Blu Ray will eventually win the war, but with the current stand-alone player price advantage HD holds, it'll be close. The other caveat is when the PS3 has the gaming library that the xbox 360 has it'll be huge for Blu Ray -- I know many folks who have bought the PS3 mostly for its Blu-Ray movie playing ability. When the library of games gets up to what it is for the xbox, I think there will be a lot more PS3's being sold with a huge base of blu ray players ready to be used.

JCD


----------



## Sonnie

I think Sony led the way with that association and didn't Toshiba, Sanyo, NEC and Memory Tech develop the HD DVD Promotion Group? Sony led the way for Blu-ray while Toshiba led the way for HD-DVD?


----------



## MrPorterhouse

Blu-ray will win. Or, rather I should say, Blu-ray can NOT lose. Sony alone can keep this format alive because they have to. The PS3 uses Blu-ray media for gaming, so BD-ROM's are going to be mass produced for many years, and this will drive media costs down for them and anyone else going Blu. Also, Sony owns a major studio, so even if all other studios turned against Blu-ray, Sony would still have an outlet. That is worst case scenario for Blu-ray, but what has happened is that Sony has gathered up a huge lineup of consumer electronic manufacturers, and pulled big time exclusive studio support from Disney/Buena Vista and FOX. Warner is neutral and can be pulled to one side or the other with "incentives", but as it stands now, Blu-ray is in a position to not be able to lose. Blu-ray continues to outsell HD DVD by a big margin, and that's with expensive players that are incomplete. Just imagine what will happen when the hardware gets finalized and price drops below $250 in 2008???


----------



## wbassett

I've been doing some thinking about all of this. Since I am format neutral it's a certainty that I will end up with a format that is no longer supported. In a way, I didn't take a 50/50 gamble, I made sure I have the format to lose! 

Seriously though, here is what I decided and plan on doing. I am going to pick up another HD DVD player, probably on black Friday and I'll shelve it. If Bluray was down in price I would do the same, maybe after Christmas prices will be down a bit, but I think it will be awhile before they break the $200 barrier.

Sooner or later one of these formats is going to have the bottom fall out of it. Currently Amazon shows 405 titles for HD DVD and 450 for Bluray. That's a lot of titles for each format. Both will be around for some time (Amazon still has VHS listed, I honestly can't remember the last time I watched a VHS tape and I haven't had a VHS player integrated with my system for a couple years now, but they are actually still around).

Eventually one of the two will be having some clearance sales that's for sure! A movie listing of around 400 plus movies... that's a lot to pick from and the losing format sure isn't going to be garnering full retail that's for sure. (eBay has laser discs, tons of them for $5) It's kinda nuts talking about snatching up a defunct format this early in the game, but one of the two is bound to go belly up, and like I said, I have a 100% chance of having a format that doesn't make it!:coocoo:

As crazy as this sounds, I see merit in both formats. Picture Quality (for properly mastered discs) is far superior than the average SDVD and unlike Laser Disc, these don't take up a warehouse of space to store. So as long as a person has a working player, there is eventually going to be some good deals to be had. Of course if the player breaks... hence snatching up a spare when prices finally come down to where that is realistic. 

I think even after we see one format officially 'lose' it will still be around for quite awhile. Like I mentioned, VHS is still hanging around believe it or not and that format was snuffed by DVD years ago.

Right now though it is nice being about to go back and forth and watch what I want no matter what format it's on.


----------



## Sonnie

MrPorterhouse said:


> Blu-ray continues to outsell HD DVD by a big margin, and that's with expensive players that are incomplete.


Overall HD DVD hardware sales were up 37% from Q1 to Q2 2007.

Overall Blu-ray hardware sales saw a 27% decline from Q1 to Q2.

Granted Blu-ray has 1.5 million players out, while HD-DVD only has 300,000, BUT... 93% of those Blu-ray players are PS3. That leaves 105,000 dedicated Blu-ray players in the market. I wonder how many of the PS3 owners are using it as a Blu-ray player?

There are 11.6 million XBox 360 consoles sold worldwide as of Q2 2007. Just think if they included the HD-DVD player like the PS3 includes the Blu-ray player... HD-DVD could then distort their sales numbers as well. :huh:


----------



## wbassett

MrPorterhouse said:


> Blu-ray will win. Or, rather I should say, Blu-ray can NOT lose. Sony alone can keep this format alive because they have to. The PS3 uses Blu-ray media for gaming, so BD-ROM's are going to be mass produced for many years, and this will drive media costs down for them and anyone else going Blu. Also, Sony owns a major studio, so even if all other studios turned against Blu-ray, Sony would still have an outlet. That is worst case scenario for Blu-ray, but what has happened is that Sony has gathered up a huge lineup of consumer electronic manufacturers, and pulled big time exclusive studio support from Disney/Buena Vista and FOX. Warner is neutral and can be pulled to one side or the other with "incentives", but as it stands now, Blu-ray is in a position to not be able to lose. Blu-ray continues to outsell HD DVD by a big margin, and that's with expensive players that are incomplete. Just imagine what will happen when the hardware gets finalized and price drops below $250 in 2008???


Couple things I definitely can say I learned in life is never say never. The other is never say an absolute.

MrPorterhouse you make some good points, but as I keep mentioning, the tide keeps shifting back and forth. When BD finally meets their own specification standards, yes that will be a great thing as well as fully functional players at reasonable prices. Also they still have to take advantage of the larger storage capacity and do it in an efficient manner that's not just bloat. I really do like both formats, but Sony still has a lot of promises to deliver on.

By the time BD players hit the $250 mark, HD DVD will be under $150. That's a catch up game that seriously could hurt Bluray. Even if they iron out all the problems and it ends up being a superior format, my brother reminded me this wouldn't be the first time that a superior format lost.

The winner of this has to get players in major stores like Walmart and Target and for prices that people casually throw one in the cart without worrying about skipping a car payment. Movie titles also have to come down to the $20 mark for new releases. Like I have said, I am format neutral but I still buy SDVDs probably at a ratio of 10:1 as compared to either High Def format, and I buy HD DVD probably 3:1 as compared to Bluray. This has more to do with my viewing preferences and I understand others will be the opposite of me. Still, the recent news is pretty big.


----------



## MrPorterhouse

wbassett said:


> Couple things I definitely can say I learned in life is never say never. The other is never say an absolute.
> 
> MrPorterhouse you make some good points, but as I keep mentioning, the tide keeps shifting back and forth. When BD finally meets their own specification standards, yes that will be a great thing as well as fully functional players at reasonable prices. Also they still have to take advantage of the larger storage capacity and do it in an efficient manner that's not just bloat. I really do like both formats, but Sony still has a lot of promises to deliver on.
> 
> By the time BD players hit the $250 mark, HD DVD will be under $150. That's a catch up game that seriously could hurt Bluray. Even if they iron out all the problems and it ends up being a superior format, my brother reminded me this wouldn't be the first time that a superior format lost.
> 
> The winner of this has to get players in major stores like Walmart and Target and for prices that people casually throw one in the cart without worrying about skipping a car payment. Movie titles also have to come down to the $20 mark for new releases. Like I have said, I am format neutral but I still buy SDVDs probably at a ratio of 10:1 as compared to either High Def format, and I buy HD DVD probably 3:1 as compared to Bluray. This has more to do with my viewing preferences and I understand others will be the opposite of me. Still, the recent news is pretty big.


I absolutely agree with everything you say. 

We are not even in the mainstream adoption ballpark yet, so there is plenty of time for tides to shift and deals to be done to turn things either way. However, those deals have to make business sense. With the lopsided consumer electronics support, strong studio support, retail and rental backing, Blu-ray has a strangle hold on the marketing and distribution of their format. This is extremely tough to overcome for HD DVD. This is why HD DVD with a more complete hardware spec and cheaper hardware, still has been getting outsold this year in disc sales(Blu-ray about 65% to 35% for HD DVD for 2007). That's a huge deficit and it means people have bought into Blu-ray as a format that delivers content they want, in spite of hardware that they might not want. Well the BD hardware that people want(cheap and full featured) is coming and once it does, where in the war will we be? If its still early in the war, then HD DVD is in big trouble. If HD DVD has penetrated the market significantly, then there may be 2 formats indefinitely.


----------



## Sonnie

I'm almost ready to give in to the fact there could be two formats indefinitely, or that they will both last until the next format arrives. As strong as both are going after their share of the market, I just don't see one or the other giving in. Too many folks have too much to lose on both sides. I guess this is one reason why I'm eager to see a dual format player worth owning and at a reasonable price.


----------



## wbassett

MrPorterhouse said:


> If its still early in the war, then HD DVD is in big trouble. If HD DVD has penetrated the market significantly, then there may be 2 formats indefinitely.


That actually would work too and many people would be perfectly fine with it if all studios released in both formats, but we all know that's not about to happen... at least not anytime soon.

Just to be the devil's advocate :innocent: 300 on HD DVD is pretty interactive and I haven't seen anything like it on BD. 

My next purchase though will probably A Knights Tale on Bluray. 

I think both formats have their strong points, and a 57 title difference between the two formats is pretty much a wash. Sony does have Spidey and Pirates, Fantastic Four ... but Marvel became its own studio and could go either way for future releases.

Bond will be another big one for Bluray, but HD DVD just snagged Trek, and I know people that bought Laser disc players just for Trek on Laser disc. BD really needs to step up with the codecs and make use of the disc space and get their players up to standards quickly. Four studios to five, with one neutral... studio support is also pretty much a wash now. That leaves pricing and Toshiba is definitely ahead in that area.

As far as BD players, I personally feel the PS3 is the most update-able and versatile Bluray player of the bunch and wouldn't trade mine for any of the current or upcoming players out there.

I'm definitely not trying to argue, just saying Sony doesn't have a lock on this.


----------



## MrPorterhouse

Sonnie said:


> I guess this is one reason why I'm eager to see a dual format player worth owning and at a reasonable price.


A dual format player works for the consumer, works for the retailer, but carries some complex liscencing and roaylty fees, as well as a more complicated hardware insides. Nothing too restrictive.

However, having 2 disc formats where you have neutral studios just isn't a long term solution. A studio will need to pick a side and run with it.(Not a big problem to consumers if they have dual format players). Also, retailers don't like to dedicate twice the shelf space to the same movie because its on different formats. Retailers already have to stock DVD's, so they don't have room to keep adding formats at will. I can see Warner being persuaded to go one way or another at some point. Every studio has their own interests to watch over. Dual format support just isn't going to work for studios in the long run. It can be managed by consumers, but studios aren't going to dig it. Warner will settle into a format, maybe not soon, but they will.


----------



## wbassett

Just an FYI- Block Buster may be softening their stance on BD exclusive...



Block Buster said:


> We are not endorsing either format and have no desire to lead customers to a certain format choice. Our goal is to offer customers the most convenient access to the movies they want and that means giving them the best availability and the best selection possible in the formats they prefer.
> 
> While it is still too early to say which high-definition format will become the industry standard, we will continue to closely monitor customer rental patterns both at our stores and online, so we can adjust our inventory mix accordingly and ensure that Blockbuster is offering customers the most convenient access to the movies they want, in the format they want. That may mean in the future that we will add HD-DVD titles to additional stores.
> 
> Blockbuster continues to carry HD-DVD in about 250 stores and also offers HD-DVD titles online.


The list is pretty evenly matched too... 299 HD DVD titles, 300 Bluray titles. 

Hey, if they do go BD exclusive, I won't complain. They will most likely be selling off their HD DVD inventory and I'll snag some as they go on clearance! 

__________________________________
Just got off the phone with Block Buster-

They said they definitely are not dropping HD DVD from their online inventory (I was hoping for some good deals if they were ) and the stores that currently have them for rental will continue to carry them. As far as new stores adding High Def titles, he said he couldn't say if HD DVD would be carried or not and it all depends on the market.

So they do seem to be softening just a bit. Like I said, bummer, I wanted some clearance priced HD DVDs!


----------



## tbase1

Dual Format for me...however ,I think hd-dvd looks a tad bit better then blu-ray.


----------



## Fincave

I voted 'I don't know'. I think that is still too early to tell and definitely so on the European side of the pond where HD-DVD is in the lead. From people I have spoken to here in Finland nobody is planning on buying either format and neither format is receiving much promotion, people are happy with regular DVD quality and apart from the early adopters, many of whom have bought both formats I do not see either format winning in the near future here.

OT: Were I to hazard a guess I would predict that Blu-Ray would perservere in the end, I think that Sony just have too much clout. As to who I would want to win, well either is fine by me though how things currently stand I would prefer for HD-DVD to win for various reasons, price, region free which would allow me to purchase from abroad and to not have to wait for the European release of a title, and finally HD-DVD not being a Sony product does make a difference to me. Were Blu-Ray to come down in price and be region free I would then gladly buy a player manufactured by Samsung, LG, Pioneer etc.


----------



## tcarcio

I voted that both can survive because in the long run having most studios selling both formats and hardware manufacturers making both types of players will be in the best interest of the consumer and help keep prices down. At that point alot of company's will also be producing more DF players. That being said if Warner goes exclusive to HD DVD,as some rumors are suggesting, then HD would get the upper hand. In any case it definitley will not end soon. IMO.


----------



## santora

My answer was the only one I know is right at the current time ""I Don't Know." no one can. Both formats have some traction so it's really luck of the draw at this point. HD DVD will hit the $199 price barrier first. Blu Ray will continue to add to it's numbers via the PS3 - even if some people don't want it.

At the end of the day it's anyone's guess. I think what is almost guaranteed, is that this could very well be the last physical media format for movies as the studios will most likely go to some form of internet based delivery system in ten years (assuming the infrastructure's there.)


----------



## SteveB

Here's another vote for 'don't know'. I have a XA2 but I've never seen a Blu-Ray. I watch both HD and regular dvds on my player and I can see some differences in PQ but don't notice much in SQ. I'm not sure that I could justify the price of a Blu-Ray just to see the movies that aren't available in HD when I can buy a regular dvd. It could/would become a real issue if the Blu-Ray supporters stopped producing movies in regular dvd. Just like I won't duplicate dvds in hd dvd. 
I don't have a game system so based on what I've read I assume the PS3 includes a Blu-Ray player? Doesn't seem right to me to include PS3 sales in the sales count for Blu-Ray. I doubt if the PS3 buyers bought it just to watch movies.
IF a good dual format player came out at reasonable price and wasn't made by Sony I might consider one. Yes, I still have a bad feeling from the BetaMax days.


----------



## Sonnie

You and I may be looking for the same thing Steve... check out this dual player... scroll down to the 3rd post.


----------



## SteveB

Sonnie,
I saw that right after I posted. $800 now, give it a few months and it should be reasonable. I will keep my eyes on that one.


----------



## JCD

SteveB said:


> I don't have a game system so based on what I've read I assume the PS3 includes a Blu-Ray player? Doesn't seem right to me to include PS3 sales in the sales count for Blu-Ray. I doubt if the PS3 buyers bought it just to watch movies.



I've actually seen several people buy a PS3 primarily as a blu ray player. It's actually cheaper than many players, and has many other functions (e.g., media center) other than a simple game console.

JCD


----------



## Sonnie

From what I understand it may be the best Blu-ray player available right now.


----------



## joetama

I am ready for this to be over, to be 100% honest....


----------



## Sonnie

joetama said:


> I am ready for this to be over, to be 100% honest....


lol... but it's just getting started... :huh:


----------



## joetama

Sonnie said:


> lol... but it's just getting started... :huh:


I know....


----------



## santora

I broke down. I admit it. I picked up a PS3 specifically for Blu Ray movie playback this weekend. A special promotion through the Sony Store, a Sony CC that gives you $150 back, free shipping, and 5 blu ray movies (most of which I'm not really interested in). For $350, this was really a steal and I couldn't pass it up. 

The big deal breaker for me was that this was pretty much the end of the 1st Gen PS3 unit (60gb). They've got the PS2 hardware inside and in the 80gb and forward, it will be software emulation which can be tricky at best (see Xbox 360 to Xbox). There aren't any PS3 games I want right now, but there will be, so in the end this becomes a win/win for me. But again, only because it was $350.

So I've got my 360 HD DVD player and my PS3 is on the way. I'm format agnostic and I think the hardest thing will be to decide which format to buy films on if they come out on both... I'm thinking HD DVD simply because of the interactivity, but when it matures on Blu ray who knows.

So I've gone agnostic. Yea me! My wife's thrilled.


----------



## gsmollin

I was just at Target, looking for the HD DVD and Blu-Ray programming. It consisited of two columns of HD DVD, and four columns of Blu-Ray. The whole display was about three feet wide, and that included a stupid sign that ate up two columns, which was a disclaimer that said you needed a HD DVD or BD player to view the disks! The whole thing was pathetic. I did NOT see the famous end-cap that Sony was touting in the press. I wonder if that was just more BD FUD.

One thing I did notice was that there were empty pockets in the HD DVD, and none in the BD section. That may just mean the HD vendor wasn't making his rounds. I also saw that the "300" HD DVD was a combo, and cost $34.99, and the BD version cost $24.99. That is a HUGE difference in price, and is really bad for the HD camp. The combo disks could be a really great marketing ploy, but the DVD side has to be given away! You cannot expect to charge a premium for this. If the studios won't go for that, then drop the combo disk. The prices for the HD content have to be the same.

Oh, I also saw the marketing slogan I first heard J. Leno quote. It was on the BD sign, it said, "Beyond HD". That , of course, is about HD DVD. BD is Beyond HD DVD, "Beyond HD". OK, duh.


----------



## cholly

Add me to the "I dunno" camp. I have a Toshiba HD-A2 and am quite happy with it. For now, if I want a Fox, Sony or Disney DVD, I'll just buy the standard version. The upconverted picture may not look as good as a native high definition picture, but it's still better than unconverted. That being said, I could be moved to buying a Blu-ray Disc player at some time in the future.


----------



## SLAYER

Hi folks, i have neither hd or blu,
I voted for BLU-RAY....
why? frankly i dont care for hd they bring nothing new to the table,
and if hd studios choose to stop making sdvd , then that will be the end of them.
i for one will buy a ps3 very soon and blu stand alone Asap.
just my 2 cents. 
slayer...


----------



## wbassett

Slayer as the owner of a PS3, if you plan on getting one of them there is no reason to get a stand alone BD player, unless you plan on toting the PS3 all over the place. Mine is part of my HT setup and stays there.


----------



## SLAYER

Hi folks, 
Bill, thanks for the advise, will keep in mind, im an avid first peson shooter gamer and have over 50 plus games for my ps2 and rarely use it for dvd viewing simply because my panasonic has more tweaks like zoom , other reason is ps2 wont play adult dvd etc.
so as of right now ps3 will be used 90% gaming 10% blu movie. depending on my experience with it will decide to buy a standalone or not , will see .

slayer..


----------



## wbassett

Slayer so far it's played everything I've thrown at it, including DVD-R and +Rs. I haven't had any problems with PS2 games, but after seeing a PS3 game it's really hard to go back to some of the PS2 stuff


----------



## Guest

I am pretty new here, and though I didn't read all of the above posts in great detail (mostly skimmed), I wanted to chime in my personal thoughts on the subject. I'm sure at least some of my opinions have been covered, but I still want to throw them out there.

First, it seems Sony loves to re-invent the wheel - or at least push their variation rather than adopting or cooperating with a current or emerging standard. Betamax, MiniDisc, and MemoryStick are just a couple of examples that spring to mind. Sure in some cases Sony's version may have been technically superior to some extent...

The PS3 definitely helps them get their format out, as does the fact that Sony is also in the content side of this, and will naturally support their own format for content. Though I don't care for some of Sony's products, they have done quite well with the Playstation line, and the PS3 certainly does not disappoint.

As for the technical aspects: I've compared the two somewhat (a neighbor has XBox with HD-DVD add-on drive, and a PS3, with several movies in each format). I can't say definitively without a direct comparison (eg, same movie in both versions) but I don't believe either is superior in quality in any significant way. A quality HD mastering of a recent movie on a 1080i display with decent surround sound is simply amazing no matter which format is used. Especially a good CGI flick, in my opinion...

However, the fact that HD-DVD shares so much (in the down-and-dirty technical details) with the ubiquitous DVD format, especially in manufacturing process, makes it the ideal "next gen" format in my opinion. A Blu-Ray player can play older DVDs and CDs only because extra electronics and mechanical parts are included; if Blu-Ray wins, I see a day where lower-end players no longer support older DVD titles. HD-DVD players read standard DVD discs almost natively by design (this last paragraph is all based on information I've read online - I can't be 100% sure how technically correct I am here).

Having Blockbuster, Disney, etc backing the format certainly helps, but HD-DVD has its backers as well, with only one or two studios releasing in both formats (last I checked anyway). Point being, there is a definite divide, among movie studios, manufacturers, and even consumers - if only as a side effect of their preferred game system. I believe XBox 360 offers HD-DVD only as an optional add-on, making Sony's "infiltration" a bit more complete... some hard-core gamers I know only recently discovered that their PS3 also doubled as an HD movie player, but I also know people who chose the PS3 specifically for this purpose (not much more costly than a stand-alone player; makes more sense to get a gaming system as well).

But the bottom line for consumers is this: until one format or the other "wins", I believe adoption will suffer. I myself won't spend that kind of money on a player and movie collection until I'm sure that in ten years I won't end up with boxes of Beta videocassettes collecting dust. I already have a digital camera that Vista refuses to see (and of course my laptop can read SD and other cards, but not MemoryStick).

I don't know which format will win. I hope it's HD-DVD, but there are too many factors (marketing, position, etc) to sway individual consumers and studios one way or the other; technical specs likely will have very little to do with which format ultimately wins.

Oh, one more thought: having the ability to play HD content from a disc format is not as compelling for some; my cable provider has tons of HD movies and content via video on demand service; plus, a good DVD player in progressive scan mode generally looks pretty good with an anamorphic 16:9 standard DVD - an HD version might look noticeably better, but not enough to justify repurchasing the movie in yet another format.

Just my thoughts. This site keeps emailing me to encourage me to participate, so here I am 

Edit: one last note about Sony. I mention above the possibility of future Blu-Ray players dumping support for standard DVD discs, but I should note that Sony does tend to place a lot of effort into backward compatibility with their own products; PS1 and PS2 games play on the PS3, and the controller functionality is mostly unchanged, for example...


----------



## Wayde

Hey JM4N – Great observations

I think you hit the nail right on the head with Sony trying to reinvent the wheel. Add SACD to your litany Sony wheel creation efforts. Sony has the audacity to do this over and over in the electronics industry because well… quite frankly they can. It’s a powerhouse company. 

One of the reasons Sony keeps re-inventing is it’s not only a consumer electronics manufacturer - it’s also a content provider. It’s big in movies but positively HUGE in the music recording industry. 

I like your analysis of the HD DVD tech specs making it easier to do DVD. It’s why BD has a higher cost. 

Personally, I don’t think either format is going to “take off” like DVD. The last gasp of the shiny disc is upon us and its life is being shortened by the format war. 

I look into my crystal ball and I see people in the future speaking fondly of the old HD DVD and Blu-ray formats the way some today look back at Laserdisc.

History shows the general public prefers scalability over quality in media. That’s why the lowly 128bit MP3 kicked the snot out of both SACD and DVD-Audio as the acoustic format of choice. 

In the near future we’ll download HD movies from the phone/cable/ISP companies. They’ll be encoded in highly compressed formats that will inevitably sacrifice some of what we’re enjoying now. Sure, it’ll be HD video and multi-channel sound. But anyone with a decent entertainment system and memory will long for that old concept of the disc player.


----------



## Guest

I've been on the sidelines waiting for one format to take the lead, but haven't seen any kind of significant edge to date. If the Xbox 360 prices keep falling, I might jump in there with the HD DVD add on, since I'm tempted by Gears of War and Halo 3, and I'd get an HD player for not much more, and its reportedly a pretty good HD DVD player implementation. As far as who wins the format war, if anyone - it might well be decided by which one gets cracked first.

I think for an awful lot of consumers though, they can't tell the difference between a well mastered DVD and an HD - so might be happy to stay with a good (and cheap) DVD player (with lots of titles) and a big plasma/LCD.


----------



## tonyvdb

I like the name "Blu-Ray"....thats what made up my mind.
Seriously, Im sitting on the fence on this issue until the price comes down. Spending $450 on a player is just outrageous in my opinion. I do think Blu-Ray has a slight advantage due to the backing of the larger portion of the movie and television industry.


----------



## Rex

I'm afraid that with Blockbuster only stocking Blu-Ray, we are watching the final battles of this particular war. The problem with these competing formats (and this is not the first), is that the consumer loses. I also note the price difference between a conventional 480i/p DVD and either of the competing formats. Can you see the fence where I'm sitting? There are many people sitting here. Until something happens, I think we're just beating a dead horse with this one.


----------



## digitalfife

On my last outing among HMV and Virgin Mega store it seems that BD V HD disc stocked seems to be at about 5 to 1 in favour of BD.

At our local Asda (Wallmart) there seem to be very little HD on display but plenty of BD.

At least here in my part of Scotland BD seems to be winning. Not bothered realy as I have both formats. Although for some reason I do have more BD software. Possibly due to the choice of titles I have bought.


----------



## bobgpsr

Rex said:


> Until something happens, I think we're just beating a dead horse with this one.


Since we are posting pictures:


















Interesting times. The contest is really getting going now! :jiggy:


----------



## Rex

bobgpsr said:


> Interesting times. The contest is really getting going now! :jiggy:


These numbers make it look close. I recall reading somewhere that the porno industry has opted for HD-DVD, but I wonder it that matters? :devil: As we move into the Christmas selling season, we may see the trend clarified.


----------



## Rex

Here in South Florida, Blockbuster seems to have the lion's share of the business.


----------



## toecheese

This an old-and sensitive topic for me as I got into an online scuffle about this BR versus HDDVD.

As an engineer, I hate both formats. Most technologies that are to be released (at least in the software world) are based on standards. If they aren't- they end up being forced to (witness Microsoft and ODF).

If this industry had any morals, they'd have come up with a high-def format and released it publicly so that anyone could make a player. 

For example- look at 802.11- that's Wifi- you can buy any wifi card and it'll work with any wifi hub. Products which don't write to a standard stagnate and die. 

For both Toshiba/Microsoft and Sony/Coalition of the willing to pick a 'side' means that half will lose.

Sony upsets me with Memory-Stick- a useless format that was introduced to fill in a gap that didnt' exist. At least Betamax was arguably better than VHS. There are a zillion other Sony-proprietary formats too, from their minidisc to their walkmans, that eventually die. I avoid Sony products to the extreme- IMHO, the quality is long gone and they're living on a name- and bad marketing.

Don't even get me started on Microsoft- but Toshiba hasn't been a 'bad guy' in the past, so they must have gotten a Sony exec somewhere along the way. 

I'm really torn because my HT rocks and I want high-def, but I'd rather both these technologies die and come out with a HD player that benefits neither manufacturer, but the industry at a whole.

My feelings aside, I think HD might win, even though I think BR is technically better. 

Two reasons:

HD-DVD sounds like an extension to DVD and I think it is- didn't Toshiba manage the DVD spec? If you describe your High-Def player as a H-D DVD, they kind of win the name game.

Price. HD is consistently lower priced and that means a lot when someone is going to buy their new player.

As far as me? I'm still on the fence.


----------



## Rex

toecheese said:


> This an old-and sensitive topic for me as I got into an online scuffle about this BR versus HDDVD.
> 
> As an engineer, I hate both formats. Most technologies that are to be released (at least in the software world) are based on standards. If they aren't- they end up being forced to (witness Microsoft and ODF).
> 
> If this industry had any morals, they'd have come up with a high-def format and released it publicly so that anyone could make a player.
> 
> For example- look at 802.11- that's Wifi- you can buy any wifi card and it'll work with any wifi hub. Products which don't write to a standard stagnate and die.
> 
> For both Toshiba/Microsoft and Sony/Coalition of the willing to pick a 'side' means that half will lose.
> 
> Sony upsets me with Memory-Stick- a useless format that was introduced to fill in a gap that didnt' exist. At least Betamax was arguably better than VHS. There are a zillion other Sony-proprietary formats too, from their minidisc to their walkmans, that eventually die. I avoid Sony products to the extreme- IMHO, the quality is long gone and they're living on a name- and bad marketing.
> 
> Don't even get me started on Microsoft- but Toshiba hasn't been a 'bad guy' in the past, so they must have gotten a Sony exec somewhere along the way.
> 
> I'm really torn because my HT rocks and I want high-def, but I'd rather both these technologies die and come out with a HD player that benefits neither manufacturer, but the industry at a whole.
> 
> My feelings aside, I think HD might win, even though I think BR is technically better.
> 
> Two reasons:
> 
> HD-DVD sounds like an extension to DVD and I think it is- didn't Toshiba manage the DVD spec? If you describe your High-Def player as a H-D DVD, they kind of win the name game.
> 
> Price. HD is consistently lower priced and that means a lot when someone is going to buy their new player.
> 
> As far as me? I'm still on the fence.




Well said. Beyond that, I wonder about the upgrade path from 1080p to beyond. What is the next step, for the need for something beyond 1080p will come, perhaps within a decade. While we're raising issues of standards, When most film theaters are 2.35/1, why are televisions 16/9? Sigh! :dizzy: I think I'll sit on this fence for a while longer.


----------



## tonyvdb

*Re: Poll: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray*



toecheese said:


> Blu-ray is the better technology- from a technology standpoint. So was betabax, so we'll see.


In some ways yes but HD DVD has higher audio standards than Blu-ray so thats a big thing for me. Have a look here for more details on this.


----------



## Richard W. Haines

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*

According to an article on the internet movie database, Warner announced that they will drop
HD DVD and release new titles in Blu-Ray exclusively. They've been releasing movies in both
formats to date. That just leaves Universal and Paramount as HD DVD exclusive. Some studio
spokesman also announced that they would prefer if everyone is forced to pay to download
and/or screen movies via the internet rather than own a hard copy. Studios never liked 
consumers owning a hard copy of their movie and would prefer you pay to watch it each time
you see it regardless of whether it's in a theater or at home. If this comes to pass, I'll return
to film collecting again but hopefully the 'internet exclusivity' concept for the future will bomb
just like DIVX did in the past. One of the reasons I got involved with collecting film prints back
in 1985 was because I had been so burned in electronic formats like Beta and Selectavision
(and ultimately laserdisc). The reason I recently purchased the Toshiba HD XA2 player was
because WB had so many of the titles I wanted in their library. Now I'm forced to purchase
a Blu-Ray player to see them.


----------



## Bob_99

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*



Richard W. Haines said:


> According to an article on the internet movie database, Warner announced that they will drop
> HD DVD and release new titles in Blu-Ray exclusively. They've been releasing movies in both
> formats to date. That just leaves Universal and Paramount as HD DVD exclusive. Some studio
> spokesman also announced that they would prefer if everyone is forced to pay to download
> and/or screen movies via the internet rather than own a hard copy. Studios never liked
> consumers owning a hard copy of their movie and would prefer you pay to watch it each time
> you see it regardless of whether it's in a theater or at home. If this comes to pass, I'll return
> to film collecting again but hopefully the 'internet exclusivity' concept for the future will bomb
> just like DIVX did in the past. One of the reasons I got involved with collecting film prints back
> in 1985 was because I had been so burned in electronic formats like Beta and Selectavision
> (and ultimately laserdisc). The reason I recently purchased the Toshiba HD XA2 player was
> because WB had so many of the titles I wanted in their library. Now I'm forced to purchase
> a Blu-Ray player to see them.



NPR did a short report yesterday regarding the west coast CES and reported the same thing about Warner Brothers. The person being interviewed indicated that BR had better disc protection which was part of the reason for the decision. The overall conclusion was that this put BR ahead of HD although supporters of HD say that the war isn't over yet. I agree with your point of view regarding DIVX and ownership but unfortunately I'm not sure many people have the same access to film prints that you do.

Bob


----------



## wbassett

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*

Bob/Richard...

I said this in another thread too-


> My biggest fear in the whole format war thing isn't Sony winning or HD DVD winning, but us losing. If two formats remain and studios are divided, then mass consumer adoption will be slow to happen if at all. That leaves the door cracked for inferior download/On Demand content that ultimately will cost more and deliver inferior quality. Granted mp3's don't cost 'more', but quality did take a hit and a lot of people don't realize it. I don't ever expect to see movie prices drop to that of mp3's so we would have a lesser quality product at a premium price, and as I said, that is my fear.


That really is my biggest concern. We got fed up with cable, prices, content, commercials, so back in 2004 we went cable free until October of this year. I can say this with first hand experience that DVD, HD DVD, and BD is better quality than cable, even their so called 'High Definition' doesn't look as good as either HD disc format. On demand is buggy and movie selections are slim unless I want to start to do PPV on demand movies. The thing is if I like a movie, I will watch it repeatedly over the years that I own it. Some movies I may not have seen in several years, but if the mood strikes me, I can take it off the shelf and throw it in... no PPV expense and no content availability issues. 

I can't speak for satelite delivery, but cable High Def isn't as good, and that is what I see as the 'replacement' format. I mentioned "ultimately it will cost more and deliver inferior quality" and I really feel that way. Some may ask 'How could it cost more? Well in just this one respect and example- We dropped cable and dish for three years. If we decided to do that again (I find myself only watching Discovery, History, and The Learning channel again, content hasn't improved much on the other channels in the past three years) and if things go to an 'on demand' type system, we'd be forced to sign up for a service again.

In the long run I don't see disc media going away though. Block Buster, Netflix, Hollywood Video would all be out of bussiness, and they aren't going to sit around and just let that happen.

I either want to see one format, or all movies on both formats. Ultimately if all movies were out on both formats, the public would decide and eventually there would be one format, but one that the consumer's truly picked.


----------



## Bob_99

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*



> The thing is if I like a movie, I will watch it repeatedly over the years that I own it. Some movies I may not have seen in several years, but if the mood strikes me, I can take it off the shelf and throw it in...


I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in this respect. My wife always questions me as to why I watch movies again after I've already seen them and I've tried to explain it to her but I don't think she completely understands.

Bob


----------



## MrPorterhouse

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*



Bob_99 said:


> I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in this respect. My wife always questions me as to why I watch movies again after I've already seen them and I've tried to explain it to her but I don't think she completely understands.
> 
> Bob


Me too. My wife is a one and done person. I, on the other hand, like to have movies around for that certain moment when I'm in the mood, or maybe we're having a get together and talking about a "remember that one movie when..." moment. If you've got the disc, then you can just throw it in and enjoy, and with high def media, you can enjoy it in the best possible medium availible.


----------



## Richard W. Haines

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*

As a filmmaker, I'm always popping on discs to study how a director covered a scene or
edited it. Or if I'm in a foul mood, I'll put on "The Wild Bunch" and watch the massacres.
If I want to zone out, I'll watch the climax of "2001: A Space Odyssey" or the musical
numbers from "The Gang's All Here". If I need something to pick my spirits up, I'll watch
the toga party in "Animal House".


----------



## wbassett

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*

I'm 'so bad' at preferring disc over broadcast that if a movie comes on cable, generally we have it on disc and I end up throwing that in... especially if it's a network broadcast with commercials! ugh!


----------



## Richard W. Haines

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*

Returning to the original discussion, it seems highly unlikely that HD DVD format can survive with
only Universal and Paramount exclusive releases. As of now, there are few films available on HD
DVD from either studio.


----------



## MatrixDweller

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*

Did Warner Bros give a reason for dropping HD-DVD?


----------



## imbeaujp

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*

I think that war is not over yet. Someone told me that the bigest movie industry (pornographic) chose HD DVD...


----------



## wbassett

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*

They said it was business reasons. They looked at the overall market and felt that more consumers have decided on Bluray. Going by the numbers they felt it was to their best financial interests.


----------



## muzz

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*

Business reason alright....... bah

Put ALL content on BOTH formats, and see what the people decide..

No question in my mind, and I spend alot more $ than the average Joe.


----------



## John Simpson

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*

Wow, this thread just gets more and more fascinating.

I think HD is entrenched, so I doubt Blu-Ray discs will ever go away -- especially in places like Australia, where high-speed broadband is not the norm (and usually throttled back once you exceed your monthly limit). HD movies by internet just aren't viable here.

And as Bill says, the rental stores need some sort of physical format to rent, and discs are widely accepted as the media of choice.

The worst thing if HD-DVD leaves us will be the lack of competitive force it exerted in the HD market. Those 3-for-2 and 2-for-1 movies sales were terrific, and I doubt they will continue if HD-DVD disappears (at least until HD is mainstream). Oh well...


----------



## Richard W. Haines

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*

Paramount just dropped out of HD DVD. That leaves Universal. It's a dead format and I wasted $500 on the Toshiba HD XA2. I should start a museum of expensive obsolete formats. 


Let's see if the prices on Blu-ray players drop further or go way up since there's no more competetion. Hopefully they'll continue to drop below the $300 price since it's in their interest to try to establish the format for consumers. I don't think the studios and hardware manufacturers realize that the reason that standard DVD caught on so quickly was not because of the superior quality to VHS and laserdisc but because it was so cheap. Both players and discs are inexpensive and that's what the average consumer (as opposed to videophile) cares about. So they need to drop Blu-ray to the same price as a standard DVD and the players have to come down to about $100 or less. I'll buy one soon but first I have to get past my anger of spending so much for Toshiba player. Since I got burned decades ago with
Betamax, Selectavision and Laserdisc, I feel especially foolish for not waiting.
I hope I learned my lesson this time. The next time there is a format war in
the future (some higher definition unit and discs), I'll certainly wait until the
corporate politics play out and the winner is established. I am very glad
that I continue to shoot my features in 35mm and not in some digital format doomed
to obsolesence in the long run.


----------



## Sonnie

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*



> Paramount just dropped out of HD DVD.


Has this been officially announced and is there a source other than blog rumors?


----------



## bsoko2

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*



Richard W. Haines said:


> Paramount just dropped out of HD DVD. That leaves Universal. It's a dead format and I wasted $500 on the Toshiba HD XA2. I should start a museum of expensive obsolete formats.
> 
> 
> Let's see if the prices on Blu-ray players drop further or go way up since there's no more competetion. Hopefully they'll continue to drop below the $300 price since it's in their interest to try to establish the format for consumers. I don't think the studios and hardware manufacturers realize that the reason that standard DVD caught on so quickly was not because of the superior quality to VHS and laserdisc but because it was so cheap. Both players and discs are inexpensive and that's what the average consumer (as opposed to videophile) cares about. So they need to drop Blu-ray to the same price as a standard DVD and the players have to come down to about $100 or less. I'll buy one soon but first I have to get past my anger of spending so much for Toshiba player. Since I got burned decades ago with
> Betamax, Selectavision and Laserdisc, I feel especially foolish for not waiting.
> I hope I learned my lesson this time. The next time there is a format war in
> the future (some higher definition unit and discs), I'll certainly wait until the
> corporate politics play out and the winner is established. I am very glad
> that I continue to shoot my features in 35mm and not in some digital format doomed
> to obsolesence in the long run.


I have both formats and if HDDVD tanks, I'll use the AX2 for watching standard DVDs. There is no Blu-Ray player that can upconvert as well as the AX2.

Bill


----------



## Richard W. Haines

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*

Not officially announced but covered in the London Financial Times coupled with the fact that
Paramount dropped HD DVD announcements of upcoming titles whereas the other studios
posted their product at a trade show the other day. Even if Paramount hangs in there for a while, there's no way the format can survive with only two studios and porns supporting it. In terms of the latter, does the superior resolution really make a difference for that type of programming? 
In theory Warner is supposed to continue to release HD DVD titles until May but I doubt that
will happen unless the discs have already been manufactured and are ready to ship. Will the stores
stock them?

Needless to say, Toshiba will probably try to put a spin on it and persuade people that the
format is alive...at least until they dispose of their current inventory of machines and the
distributors sell off the remaining discs out there. I think unless there is a major turnaround
by Warners or the other studios change their positions, it's safe to say it's a dead format.


----------



## Sonnie

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*

Oh... okay... the Financial Times rumors were denied by Paramount. We've already posted all about that. I just don't want to mislead anyone by making a statement that "Paramount just dropped out of HD-DVD" when that has not been officially announced and we don't know that to be fact. While it may happen, it has not officially happened yet and Paramount has only denied that rumor thus far.


----------



## MrPorterhouse

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*



Sonnie said:


> Oh... okay... the Financial Times rumors were denied by Paramount. We've already posted all about that. I just don't want to mislead anyone by making a statement that "Paramount just dropped out of HD-DVD" when that has not been officially announced and we don't know that to be fact. While it may happen, it has not officially happened yet and Paramount has only denied that rumor thus far.


That's correct, Sonnie. Nothing official yet regarding Paramount. The date for the announcement that is floating around is Jan 10, 11, or 12. Universal is rumored to have a contract with HD DVD through January 2008. Universal is rumored to make some sort of announcement regarding Blu-ray within the next month or so. They may also be a part of the Paramount discussions, but its shaking down right now, as we speak(type/read).


----------



## Guest

Reports yesterday from CES indicate that Universal has decided to opt out of supporting HD-DVD exclusively. They'll continue release movies on the format until May, at which point, it's unclear if they'll start supporting Blu-Ray as well, or turn to exclusively supporting Blu-Ray.

HD-DVD is dead, and it's a sad day.


----------



## wbassett

Toshiba really needs to make a press release even if it's to concede. I'm not really upset that they didn't say anything this week, I'm sure they've been in meetings all week over this.

They have to say something next week though or the lack of response is going to be taken as a response by most people. If this is true about Universal, I honestly can't see how HD DVD can survive. Toshiba has a way to somewhat not lose their shorts and that would be for them to make a dual format player so HD DVD movie owners aren't left with a useless library in the event their current player dies... but even offering legacy support and compatibility, after a few years even that gets dropped.

Has there been any official confirmation/press release about Universal, and any official word from Paramount? Those two are the last heavy hitters left in camp.


----------



## Sonnie

It would really be nice to hear some official announcements of some sort. :foottap:


----------



## avaserfi

Seems Universal is sticking with HD DVD for now - http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...ends/Universal_Re-Affirms_HD_DVD_Support/1362


----------



## Guest

I sincerely apologize for any misinformation. My source was IGN, and I guess I didn't realize that they were simply quoting from elsewhere.


----------



## Sonnie

Ugggghhhh.... I'm frustrated about all of this. If HD-DVD is going to hang in there... I think they need more studio support so they can produce enough titles to make it worthwhile. If Toshiba and it's supporters really do keep things going, it will end up forcing me back into looking at the buggy dual format player. I was kinda looking forward to the PS3, but I ain't got room for both it and the XA2. :hissyfit: I guess I'm just gonna have to find some patience somewhere.


----------



## avaserfi

Sonnie said:


> Ugggghhhh.... I'm frustrated about all of this. If HD-DVD is going to hang in there... I think they need more studio support so they can produce enough titles to make it worthwhile. If Toshiba and it's supporters really do keep things going, it will end up forcing me back into looking at the buggy dual format player. I was kinda looking forward to the PS3, but I ain't got room for both it and the XA2. :hissyfit: I guess I'm just gonna have to find some patience somewhere.


Could you set the PS3 horizontally on top of the XA2? Get the best of both worlds or is your room really that tight?


----------



## Sonnie

No... it won't squeeze... just too tight. After thinking about it, I may just buy the PS3 and place it on top of my cabinet to the left of the center and leave it there for a while, running both the XA2 and the PS3. It's not like I'm trying to impress anyone with my cabinet setup in a dedicated HT room. We don't go in there to look at the cabinet anyway. Although eventually it would be nice to only own one player.


I went to Wal-Mart at lunch and almost.... I mean ALMOST picked up a PS3. I got wise at the last second and realized saving that $40+ on tax that I would save buying it via the Shack store might be worth it.


----------



## wbassett

Can you get an extended waranty through the Shack Store? If so then that's perfect!


----------



## bsoko2

I got the AX2 about 6 months ago and got alot of HDDVD's to go with it. Now with all the hype about Warner I went out and bought the BD30 and some Blu-Ray movies. So for now I have both players and we the consumers win big time because they both will undercut each other in pricing and content. Just think what would have happened if there was only one format? We would still be paying over a $1000 for a player and $40 to $60 per movie. I hope this goes on for a few more years.

Bill


----------



## AverageJoe

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*



muzz said:


> ...No question in my mind, and I spend alot more $ than the *average Joe*.


Well, Maybe :bigsmile:, but my wife may disagree with you :spend:.


----------



## bsoko2

ALL wifes will disagree with you! Mine thinks that I'm a techno junkie and she's just finding this out after 40 years.

Bill


----------



## dieselpower1966

Personally I'm not sold on H.D. or Blu Ray, neither format is stable enough yet and one of them will go down the same was as the old Beta and Vhs war, and end up like the Laser disc.
I will wait it out.
There are 1 or 2 players out there that will play both formats, but only marginally. If for example you are watching Blu Ray, you cannot for some reason access all of the extras, and vice versa.

Dieselpower1966


----------



## muzz

*Re: HD-DVD or Blu-Ray Player*



AverageJoe said:


> Well, Maybe :bigsmile:, but my wife may disagree with you :spend:.


Heheheh :yay:


----------



## jeffgoetz1

Forbes.com


PaidContent.org
Toshiba Steps Up HD DVD Push Post-CES; Slashes Player Prices
Staci D. Kramer 01.14.08, 4:00 PM ET

Now, Toshiba is fighting back—a week after the death-bed stories, if not obits, in response, first, to Warner Bros.’s embrace of Blu-Ray from Sony and then to Universal’s decision not to date HD DVD exclusively.

The consumer electronics company, which has placed a large bet on HD DVD being at least one of two formats, is slashing prices on is HD DVD players, with some dropping to as low as $149.99, according to AP.

It’s a half-empty, half-full moment for retailers, who could see a sales boost at the same time that some may be faced with price matching from holiday sales.

The headline on the release actually explains the strategy: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit Sales: Mass Market Acceptance Confirms that HD DVD is the Consumer’s Choice for Next Generation High Def Entertainment.”

The theory: play up the acceptance by consumers who have already paid for HD DVD versus those who get it with something else like a gaming console, get more players out there—and dare studios to ignore those consumers.

In addition to the sales cuts, Toshiba will launch “major initiatives, including joint advertising campaigns with studios.”

Toshiba says it closed 2007 with approximately 50% market share and an 80%-plus share of next-gen equipped notebooks sold in Q407.

Yoshi Uchiyama, Group Vice President Digital A/V Group: “While price is one of the consideration elements for the early adopter, it is a deal-breaker for the mainstream consumer.” But will mainstream users pay even reduced amounts for something without full studio coverage?

Online content access: Universal Home Video, Paramount Pictures and DreamWorks Animation SKG report that “an average of 30 percent of HD DVD owners have accessed Web- enabled network features and continue to do so regularly.” Players hooked up to the internet can stream new content, trailers, etc.


----------



## MatrixDweller

I think a big factor would be the market data showing that over 30% of HD-DVD users have accessed online content from the discs. Being able to draw that much traffic to your site is a money maker. The movie studios will be able to make quite a bit of money if they design their sites well. Merchandising, online premium downloads, memberships, etc could add quite a bit of revenue. Not to mention the advertising opportunities. It would be sort of like the way Disney World hits you with a gift shop as you come off the ride.


----------



## bluejay

Hmmmmm? :innocent:

I voted for Blu-ray winning a while back, but, I ordered a HD DVD yesterday. :hide:


----------



## imbeaujp

I saw on a forum that Toshiba is going to invest on massive adds starting tomorrow at the SuperBowl.


----------



## John Simpson

Did anyone see this on Michael Bay's blog?

_Well another studio down. Maybe I was right? Blu ray is just better. HD will die a slow death. It's what I predicted a year ago. Now with Warner's down for the count with Blu Ray. That makes it easier for Wal-Mart to push Blu Ray. And whatever Wal-Mart pushes - wins. Hd better start giving out those $120 million dollars checks to stay alive. Maybe they can give me some so I can give it to my Make-A-Wish charity, just to shut me up. Have faith people Transformers will come out in Blu-ray one day!_

Well yay... I've been waiting on a Blu-ray copy of *Transformers*. Looks like it might happen yet...


----------



## Sonnie

These next few weeks will be very interesting.


----------



## gnatnoop

imbeaujp said:


> I saw on a forum that Toshiba is going to invest on massive adds starting tomorrow at the SuperBowl.


It's probably too little too late, i say that owning an A2 and about 50 hddvd's. Oh well...lol. :duh:


----------



## bonehead848

So did anybody see the big HDDVD superbowl ad? Wasnt broadcast in my area


----------



## Sonnie

I didn't see the first one... however I missed the most of the first half and half time.

I think Toshiba got wise and saved their money for something worth while.


----------



## wbassett

bonehead848 said:


> So did anybody see the big HDDVD superbowl ad? Wasnt broadcast in my area


If it means anything, I don't remember seeing any Bluray ads either. We all know what Sony spent their money on though... Warner Brothers 

Seriously... Sony probably figured there's no reason to spend that kind of money since they feel it's over, and like Sonnie said, Toshiba probably figured there are better places to spend their money as well.

I'm still waiting to hear something big from Toshiba. As I said before, one thing they can do is to convince Universal and Paramount to start pumping out some of the older classics that they have in their libraries. This is strictly my personal opinion, but I don't buy romantic comedies on High Def, I like big epic movies and classic movies. HD DVD could double their library if they open up the old stuff. Of course that takes a lot of film stock cleanup, but it's something, but it costs money. It all depends on how much more Toshiba wants to dump into the format. It's all up to them now.

The way I see it, they have another month to capitalize on income tax return season and make a big announcement. After that, it's really going to start looking bleak.


----------



## John Simpson

I dunno Bill -- I wonder if there's any point in releasing old movies on HD. I was reading a review of the Blu-ray version of "Close Encounters" and they were saying the HD format was not doing it any favours -- inconsistent and distracting video, I think they said (although the sound was pretty good).

Then again, when they release the entire Star Wars "extended, enlarged and engorged" Blu-ray boxed versions, I'll be the first one camped outside Target...


----------



## wbassett

John I agree that there may not be any point in releasing their older titles, but without more studio support they only have a limited number of potential new releases to draw on. It's about the only thing they could do as far as I can see- crank out as many titles as they can in HD DVD to increase the content. Some people only want the newest movies, some like older ones too. Without additional studio support though, what else can they do?

I've said before that they can only do so much with film, you can't make something high def if it didn't start out as high def, but I'll recant that somewhat. With the 4K film transfer process they can clean up film to look ten fold better than standard def DVD, but the problem is it's time consuming and costs money. Money is something that right now I think has been the topic of some major discussions in Toshiba board room meetings... how much more money do they want to dump into this? If little to none, it's all over except a masquerade to give the appearance it's not while they recoup as much as they can on existing player inventory.

If the plan is to flood the market with inexpensive players to try and convince the studios to at least move to dual format support, it's highly unlikely that alone is going to work. Content is a must.

I personally liked Beta better than VHS (ironically that was Sony, and a somewhat reversed situation and feelings now). I had a player, and also a VHS player. I watched Block Buster go from a 50/50 split of Beta and VHS titles, to 60/40, then 70/30... then one wall and a couple of shelves... to one row then nothing. It didn't matter if the movie title was a new release or older one, if I wanted to watch it and it wasn't available in Beta format, I picked up the VHS version. It's been said many times that without content a format can't survive, and I do agree with that 1000%.

Also the question is can High Def DVD survive at all? Again an old topic, but look at Laser Disc. I had and still have one of those as well as movies. The picture quality in my opinion was far superior to both Beta and VHS. Even if it was a lesser quality transfer that looked the same, I guarantee after a year if you put the Beta/VHS version in, it was no longer equal... Laser Disc at least would not degrade over time like tape does. Anyway, see how familiar this sounds (and it is a repeat of what has been said before)... Better audio and video quality, but higher prices for both the players and the titles. When I say higher prices, some titles were $40 or more, and this was around 15 years ago or longer. DVD came along, and Laser Disc didn't have a chance.

Now I do see titles below $20 for a lot of movies, but most are around $25, some even over $30. So less content, higher priced players and media... Well, history does repeat itself.

The best thing about the format war was the competition. It helped drive prices down faster than they would have come down if it was just one format, but they are still nowhere close to where they need to be. Just like with what DVD did to Laser Disc, Bluray may win the battle and beat Toshiba only to ultimately lose.

Now a little something off topic... Difference between Laser Disc and High Def DVD...

Most people know what a Laser disc looks like, but a lot of the younger set don't. Anyway, one thing you can do with Laser Disc you can't with DVD- Make a pretty cool HT display! 

The cases are big and look like mini movie posters, and the disc itself looks like those platinum record awards you always see musicians have hanging up- put them in a nice frame with the case cover art displayed as well as the actual Laser Disc displayed! I'll whip up one sometime and post it in another thread, but it could be a pretty cool display. 

So see? You still can have fun with an old defunct format!

Back to topic now- This is strictly my opinion, but I feel if Toshiba has anything up their sleeve, they have a month to pull it off and it better be huge. After that, it's down hill just like Beta and Laser Disc, except HD DVDs won't make cool HT decor ten years from now and Laser Discs still will look pretty wicked :bigsmile:


----------



## mechman

bonehead848 said:


> So did anybody see the big HDDVD superbowl ad? Wasnt broadcast in my area


Yep. The Planters peanuts/cashews commercial blew it out of the water though! :rofl:

Linky

mech


----------



## mechman

Wow! Didn't realize it would make a big window like that! Here's the HD-DVD commercial.

HD-DVD

mech


----------



## Sonnie

I must have missed it. :huh:


----------



## wbassett

I must have missed it too, and I didn't leave the room. 

I wonder if this played in all areas? If it did, it was so underwhelming that I never even noticed it.

I love my HD DVD players, but if that's all they could muster up, this really is over.

I talked to my brother yesterday and he said he stopped buying HD DVDs completely and won't buy anymore from here on out. He was a loyal HD DVD person too and bought an A1 the week they first came out.

So Toshiba is losing their loyal core base of early adopters and that commercial isn't going to win them back that's for sure.


----------



## bonehead848

It didnt play in all areas. I didnt get to see until mechman posted it. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.


----------



## mechman

While I agree with you folks on the 30 second spot, it appears analysts do not?

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?sec_id=2&=&article_ID=12046

mech


----------



## mechman

I'd also like to add that I'm tickled that everyone thinks HD-DVD is dead! 50% off movies left and right! I've bought 15 in the last two days!! 

mech


----------



## Guest

I just got my 5 free HD-DVDs rebate , I sent my rebate form around black friday.


----------



## bonehead848

To those still hot on hd dvd looks like a number of retailers are dropping prices like crazy. Check out these slickdeals threads for some awesome deals.
http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?sduid=140307&t=744788&highlight=hd+dvd
http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?sduid=140307&t=739816&highlight=hd+dvd
Enjoy!


----------



## bonehead848

http://checkoutblog.com/entries/2008/2/15/wal_mart_chooses_a_hi_def_platform.aspx

*Moderator edited.* The quoted blog references Wal*Mart urls that do not back up her statement. Nothing in the Wal*Mart links says that they are dropping Toshiba. In fact their Toshiba HD-A3 url shows the A3 back in stock for $139.28 . Bob


----------



## bonehead848

To the mod who edited my post. Here is an official Walmart press release via Gizmodo.


> Wal-Mart Moving Exclusively Toward Blu-ray Format Movies and Players
> 
> Bentonville, Ark., Feb. 15, 2008 - Wal-Mart Stores, U.S. today announces that its 4,000 Wal-Mart and Sam's Club stores will move forward this year with one hi-definition movie and hardware format: Blu-ray. The change will take place quickly over the next several months whereby the retailer will phase out HD DVD offerings and reorganize shelf space. By June, Wal-Mart stores, Sam's Clubs, www.walmart.com and www.samsclub.com will offer only Blu-ray movies and hardware machines, as well as standard definition movies and DVD players, and up converts.
> 
> "We've listened to our customers, who are showing a clear preference toward Blu-ray products and movies with their purchases," said Gary Severson, senior vice president, Home Entertainment, Wal-Mart, U.S. "With the customers best interest in all we do, we wanted to share our decision and timeline with them as soon as possible, knowing it will help simplify their purchase decision, increase selection, and increase adoption long term. We anticipate enhancing our selection with continued great values in hi-definition Blu-ray products, so our customers can further enhance their entertainment experience at home."
> 
> Wal-Mart will continue to sell through remaining HD DVD product, but in less than 30 days customers will see a more predominant move toward Blu-ray in stores, clubs and online. As the nation's largest retailer, Wal-Mart thoughtfully reviewed all areas and impact in making its decision, and is excited to move forward with one format and share its future plans with customers.


http://gizmodo.com/357024/wal+mart-goes-blu+ray-exclusive-in-june
:bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile:


----------



## bobgpsr

Yes, something like: http://www.walmartfacts.com/articles/5673.aspx is an official announcement.
No question about it. Very bad news for Toshiba's HD DVD effort.


----------



## imbeaujp

The war is over... Blue Ray is the way !


----------



## mechman

There's been rumblings of Toshiba quitting in the next few weeks. Too bad the good product lost to a bad product. :thumbsdown:

mech


----------



## MatrixDweller

I hope we don't have to suffer with $400+ players for the next few years and media prices don't stay above the $30 mark. Competition was nice, too bad Sony et al had to pull out a trump card with Warner. I'd like to know the official number of HD-DVD player owners out there.


----------



## mechman

I'll hold out until it's the same price that I paid for my A2. What was the final dollar value on that trump card anyways? Half a billion? Makes me want to wait until the next format comes out! But I need a Playstation anyways.

Is it still true that the BluRay players out there right now cannot be upgraded to the final standard? And if they cannot why are people buying them? :scratchhead:

mech


----------



## MatrixDweller

I don't think I've heard anything that was fact based about the payout to Warner. I bet it mostly intangible stuff like advertising, buying movies to include with players and post production work to make Blu-ray discs. Though one rumor said $500M + other incentives to make it more like $800M. I would think there would be anti-competition laws that forbid that sort of thing. I'm sure Toshiba has their corporate lawyers working on something.


----------



## bobgpsr

Blu-ray was/is designed for recording 2 hour movies using the MPEG2 video codec with LPCM audio. This required the 50 GB storage size and 48 Mbps transfer rate. A good technical fit for this recording application -- but makes for a non-compatible with DVD production and expensive stamped production process for mass produced two layer 50 GB BD-ROM (hard to get the protective clear coat to be even on the outer part of the disc -- it bunches up).

HD DVD was design for lower cost, mass produced, HD DVD-ROM that can use existing DVD lines with an upgrade that is not outragous. It does required advanced video codecs (VC-1 or AVC) and advanced audio codecs to get a 2 to 3 hr movie to fit on a two layer 30 GB disc.

Each was designed with different constraints -- but each works well at providing 1920x1080p24 movie playback with improved audio. Both use 405 nm blue/violet laser diodes.

To call either a "gimmick" is not valid, IMHO.

BD has won -- but not for technical or even mass market reasons (PS3 users != people have spoken) -- again IMHO.


----------



## Anthony

I just posted in another thread on this same topic. It's over, which is good from a "moving forward" perspective.

However, the damage is done. Sony is dead to me and always will be. If I ever get a BR player it will be when Toshiba releases one for under $200. 

Until then, upconverted regular DVD is the way to go. I'm hoping a download ownership model is in place by then and I'll forego a disc-spinner altogether.


----------



## mitchok

Interesting article on the subject. Not a technical battle of the best technology... only one of marketing momentum.

http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/japan_toshiba

Mitch


----------



## imbeaujp

Now, I am waiting for ROTEL to announce their new HD player... Hope it will be soon...

JP


----------



## JDRoberts

Anthony said:


> I just posted in another thread on this same topic. It's over, which is good from a "moving forward" perspective.
> 
> However, the damage is done. Sony is dead to me and always will be. *If I ever get a BR player it will be when Toshiba releases one for under $200. *
> 
> Until then, upconverted regular DVD is the way to go. I'm hoping a download ownership model is in place by then and I'll forego a disc-spinner altogether.


thats not looking so good.......

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/toshiba-boss-company-not-going-blu/5255



> Todays press conference in Japan had Toshiba CEO comment on possible Blu-ray products now that they have discontinued HD DVD.
> 
> Toshiba CEO Nishida said Toshiba has "absolutely no plans" to make or sell Blu-ray players.
> 
> Wall Street Journal also writes, "Though the latest development is a huge setback, Mr. Nishida said Toshiba was still committed to electronics and it planned to rethink its vision for the business. In a hint of the direction the company might take, he said Toshiba might think about its role in the online video-downloading market more seriously. Toshiba has no plans to start selling Blu-ray players, he said."


----------



## Richard W. Haines

Well we knew this was coming. Too bad I bought the top of the line player, HD XA2, shortly
before Warners pulled out but at least I'm getting some enjoyment out of it and will continue
to use it for upscaling and my small HD DVD collection until it dies.

HD DVD can join the enormous list of defunct video formats:

Two Inch Videotape (Professional)
One Inch Videotape (Professional)
3/4" Videotape (Professional and Home Use)
Betamax Videotape (Home Use)
Beta SP Videotape (Professional)
Laserdisc (Home Use)
SelectaVision CED (Home Use)
Digital Videotape (2K resolution) (Professional)
HD DVD (Home Use)

For the time being, the surviving formats are Standard DVD, VHS (barely), Digital Videotape (4K resolution) and Blu-ray DVD.

In the near future VHS will probably disappear. They are developing 8K resolution digital Videotape
for professional use which will eventually replace 4K.

In contrast the standard for most film presentations is 35mm from 1897 through 
2008. I shoot all of my feature films in 35mm which can be transferred to any format currently in use or that may be developed in the future.

Most of the companies involved in video transfers have gone out of business
over the years because they have to borrow heavily to install the equipment
which ends up obsolete before they can pay back the cost. Labs are having
difficulty staying in business too. Both the lab that processed my negative
and the video transfer house have gone under since I shot my current feature
in June. Of course I always keep the master negative in my own storage
vault. I would never leave my negative or video master at any lab since 
they can go out of business at any time and they don't have archival vaults,
just storage rooms.


----------

