# Upgrading Front Three Speakers - Suggestions?



## Philm63

Ok, due to my recent research on upgrading my front three speakers, and with the help of the fine folks on this forum, my budget has been adjusted up from $1500 to $2000 to ensure I get something that is a bit more “future-proof”. Not saying this’ll be the last set of speakers I ever buy, just that I haven’t upgraded the front three in over 15 years, and they weren’t that great to begin with. 

That said; I had been considering GoldenEar Triton 7’s, Paradigm Monitor 7’s, the smaller Def Tecs (without the integral subs), and a few others. While doing this research, and after having listened to the GE Triton 7’s, I realized there’s a lot more to upgrading the front three than I originally thought. 

My living room is large, and has an open floor plan with 20’ ceilings so I’m looking at a space of well over 5000 cu ft. To fill that space with sound, I’m hearing from you folks that I’ll likely need something a little larger than what I’d been looking at, hence the adjustment to the budget.

Within this large space, I already have two 10” subs (older Klipsch and newer Energy) currently placed next to each of the front mains – still moving them around to find the best placement – but I’ll likely always have two subs in this room. I plan on upgrading to dual SVS PB-2000’s as soon as the HT-Bucks become available. 

Even with the subs, I’m pretty sure I’ll still want substantial towers to provide good sound and have some impact in this large space, but I don’t need monsters that’ll make my ears bleed, nor do I have the power to drive said monsters. Currently, I use a Denon AVR-X2000 (95 wpc into 2 ch), and I’m running 5.1 (mostly movies and gaming, very little music for this system) and as such, will likely be seeing only around 65 or 70 wpc to each speaker. I understand that this is still a fair amount of power, not a lot, but enough for most speakers in my price range, of course there’s sensitivity to consider also…

I don’t play it real loud like a movie theater, rather I listen to movies at levels between -20 dB and -15 dB – I’ve calibrated all of the speaker levels to 85 dB from the MLP (excluding the subs, of course – those are set by ear to where I like them), tape-measured my distances and entered those figures into the ol’ Denon, and that sounds fine to my ears. Except the quality of the speakers. That doesn’t sound so fine. Hence the upgrade. I seem to prefer a warmer sound, according to some folks, if that helps.

So now you know my room size, my budget, what I use them for, my level preferences, and what speakers I had been considering. On to the suggestions…

What I’m considering now are the PSB Imagine X2t towers and XC center ($1700), the Paradigm Monitor 9’s with the Center 3 ($1800), SVS Prime’s ($1350), and the Chane A5rx-c towers with an A2rx-c center ($1070).

I’m leaning toward the PSB Imagine X2t’s as my first choice due to their being true 3-way speakers with good sensitivity, good size and weight (seems to be important), and they just look great. The center’s only a 2-way, but that is not a show-stopper for me. The Paradigm Monitor 9’s would be my second choice as they, too, are true 3-ways with great sensitivity, good size and weight, and they look nice. Need to find a dealer so I can listen to them. The sensitivity of the Prime’s seems a bit on the low side, (87 dB towers, 86 dB center) but I’m learning that’s not such a big deal – I just need to find a dealer that has them so I can have me a listen. The Chane’s? I can’t get them until sometime this March, according to Chane. 

So, there’s my situation, and my preferences regarding brands and models for upgrading my front three. Likes? Dislikes? Suggestions?


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## Insearchof

I would go with the Chane towers and save the budget for a PB12 plus, Rythmik FV15hp or an Hsu VTF-15h. The Hsu would keep you in your under 2k budget. Getting a 2nd would be my priority.
5000 cu ft is a lot of space for a pb2k or even 2.
If you run the crossover at 60 or 80, you should be able to make the most of the receiver's available power for everything over the crossover. Imo, 60ish watts is borderline. Not running them full range certainly helps.


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## Andre

The Chane A4rx-c are a fine speaker and won the under $1k shootout. There is a matching center as well

http://www.chanemusiccinema.com/chane-loudspeakers/A5rx-c

What will you be using for surrounds? Rear or Side?

I own an Axiom setup, but the M80 towers and VP180 center would be out of your price range.

You're on the right track with listening, in the end its your ears you are pleasing with your $$$


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## Tonto

The A5rx-c's are what I am getting (March I hope!), but my room is considerably smaller. Have you read Jon's thread about the A7? It's on hold for now, but should resume with prototyping as soon as the A5's debut is finished. From what I read, should be a significant upgrade. 

The A5's are a true 3-way design.

The PSB speakers test with 2.83V/1M which boosts their sensitivity 2-3 dB's. They will require more power that the A5's.


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## tonyvdb

I would also look at the SVS Ultra speakers. You can get the two towers and the matching centre within your budget.


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## theJman

I wish everyone provided the level of detail you did. That would make it sooooo much easier... :T

Looking over your post carefully one can infer that appearance is significant for you. If so, I'm not sure the Chane speakers are in the same league as the others you mentioned. SQ wise they certainly are - and may even best some of them, and for less money to boot - but visual appeal is not really something they excel at. That could prove significant in your quest because there are other speakers, like the PowerSound Audio MT Series for example, which aren't lookers either, but have high sensitivity and lots of output. Given the size of your room those will be key considerations, in spite of the fact you don't listen at an elevated volume level. 

Insearchof brings up a good point too; subwoofers. While the PB-2000 is probably quite nice, pressurizing that much space is a lot to ask from a pair of 12" drivers. You might want to consider 15" or 18" systems instead.


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## Philm63

theJman said:


> I wish everyone provided the level of detail you did. That would make it sooooo much easier... :T
> 
> Looking over your post carefully one can infer that appearance is significant for you. If so, I'm not sure the Chane speakers are in the same league as the others you mentioned. SQ wise they certainly are - and may even best some of them, and for less money to boot - but visual appeal is not really something they excel at. That could prove significant in your quest because there are other speakers, like the PowerSound Audio MT Series for example, which aren't lookers either, but have high sensitivity and lots of output. Given the size of your room those will be key considerations, in spite of the fact you don't listen at an elevated volume level.
> 
> Insearchof brings up a good point too; subwoofers. While the PB-2000 is probably quite nice, pressurizing that much space is a lot to ask from a pair of 12" drivers. You might want to consider 15" or 18" systems instead.


I see how that came off, now. Looks aren't my top priority, for sure, but it is important for WAF that they at least look nice. Looks were merely among some of the positive factors I was comparing along with the negatives in order to narrow the field a bit - I had about a dozen speakers on the field at first, and have narrowed it down to just those that I'd mentioned in my original post. Honestly; I cut several that ranked higher in looks when compared to those I kept. Personally; I like the looks of the Chane towers just fine - they look substantial and well built, and their weight is telling.


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## willis7469

I didn't catch what you are replacing. That's a pretty good sized area. For movies and gaming as the main focus, I might consider subs first. I think it's obvious why they'd be under the scope, but just curious, what about the LCR is missing.


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## theJman

Philm63 said:


> I see how that came off, now. Looks aren't my top priority, for sure, but it is important for WAF that they at least look nice. Looks were merely among some of the positive factors I was comparing along with the negatives in order to narrow the field a bit - I had about a dozen speakers on the field at first, and have narrowed it down to just those that I'd mentioned in my original post. Honestly; I cut several that ranked higher in looks when compared to those I kept. Personally; I like the looks of the Chane towers just fine - they look substantial and well built, and their weight is telling.


Given that, the Chane's are certainly worthy contenders. It might not be a bad idea to look long and hard at those.


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## Philm63

willis7469 said:


> I didn't catch what you are replacing. That's a pretty good sized area. For movies and gaming as the main focus, I might consider subs first. I think it's obvious why they'd be under the scope, but just curious, what about the LCR is missing.


Replacing Infinity Primus 250 towers with a matching center. Looking back, I erred in my estimate of how long I'd had these - it's actually been more like 11 years, not 15. Still; these speakers have experienced a serious AVR failure when they were young - surprised they survived, but they did. They just sound thin to me when compared to others I've listened to, and they are small compared to what I'm hearing I need for this large space.


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## willis7469

I think you're looking at some worthy contenders, and definitely agree with towers. Big space needs big speakers. I'm a larger at about 6700cuft(not including foyer). Bigger speakers usually go lower, but since most people use an 80hz crossover, it doesn't matter as much. Many times, the larger drivers are more sensitive, so you can fill your space with less power, and they present dynamics and scale, better. You may find that you edge the volume up after upgrading due to the fact that your new speakers will present better dynamic range with much less distortion. Not to mention the working designs of the speakers on the table. I'd also talk to SVS directly. My gut says their "plus" series would gain more mileage than the 2Kseries. Interested to see what you do.


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## Talley

you want room filling sound without damaging ears.... you need larger subs to fill that room. room filling bass will present you a pleasant sound. 

My HSU VTF-15H MK2 and my puny NHT Superzero speakers will blow down your doors and make your ears bleed in a 5,000cu ft room. of course I'm pushing the tiny speakers with a krell showcase 7 amp so that helps.


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## willis7469

Bmxer241 said:


> My HSU VTF-15H MK2 and my puny NHT Superzero speakers will blow down your doors and make your ears bleed in a 5,000cu ft room.


 The HSU, yes. Superzero's, no. I do agree that new subs are in order. A pair of 10 inchers are just too small to move enough air. All in good time, as he did mention them.


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## theJman

willis7469 said:


> The HSU, yes. Superzero's, no. I do agree that new subs are in order. A pair of 10 inchers are just too small to move enough air. All in good time, as he did mention them.


+1

Super Zero's are way too small for that space. They would be overwhelmed by half as much.


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## Talley

was a figure of speech....

what I mean is... he is lacking in the bass filling department. No way I see two 10" subs filling that much space adequately.

and driving the NHT with the krell makes a significant improvement vs. the denon receiver I have. Louder, cleaner, stronger, faster... but they do lack the punch. I'm saving for Golden Ear replacements.

For the OP... on a 2k budget.... would be tough to say exactly what would be best, subs or mains. The main issue is his space.... big space = big $ to fill the space with clean sound loudly.


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## Philm63

I realize that I cannot do it all at once, and there are several upgrades I am considering at the moment. My present order of priorities goes like this: Front speakers (old - gotta go!)- BD player (Oppo - will allow SACD's) - new subs (corrects the bass issues) - new AVR (better power and adjustability). 

Honestly, and it's simply that I don't know any better yet, my subs shake the floor and rattle my bones nicely, but they are likely not balanced like they should be, nor do they blend with the fronts like they should, but I can live with that, for now.


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## Andre

Philm63 said:


> my subs shake the floor and rattle my bones nicely, but they are likely not balanced like they should be, nor do they blend with the fronts like they should


Have you tried the subs in different locations? Try the "subcrawl"


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## Insearchof

Philm63 said:


> They just sound thin to me when compared to others I've listened to, and they are small compared to what I'm hearing I need for this large space.


Have you tried these speakers with a more powerful amp? Do you have a way to test them out with something else?
My towers sounded mediocre until I picked up a 2 channel amp for L+R duty. They would get somewhat loud using the receiver in 2 channel mode but SQ suffered and the sound they produced at higher volumes was less than stellar and as you put it "sounded thin"- My receiver is rated 90wpc 2 channels driven.
With the outboard amp, the sound has opened up, is more dynamic, has more authority in any range and the bass tightened up. I left the crossover at 60 to keep the comparison valid.
It made the difference for my current towers. Will I still upgrade someday? Probably, but it has certainly extended their use in my main setup.


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## Philm63

Insearchof said:


> Have you tried these speakers with a more powerful amp? Do you have a way to test them out with something else?
> My towers sounded mediocre until I picked up a 2 channel amp for L+R duty. They would get somewhat loud using the receiver in 2 channel mode but SQ suffered and the sound they produced at higher volumes was less than stellar and as you put it "sounded thin"- My receiver is rated 90wpc 2 channels driven.
> With the outboard amp, the sound has opened up, is more dynamic, has more authority in any range and the bass tightened up. I left the crossover at 60 to keep the comparison valid.
> It made the difference for my current towers. Will I still upgrade someday? Probably, but it has certainly extended their use in my main setup.


Naw, a new amp/pre/pro or AVR is a ways off yet, and I've stepped up in power each time with my last four AVR's, all on this one set of speakers. Sony, Yamaha, and 2 Denons later, here I am today. I figured a new set of speakers would give the most significant improvement in SQ that any one move could give.


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## willis7469

Philm63;1053433" Honestly said:


> . I figured a new set of speakers would give the most significant improvement in SQ that any one move could give.


 I agree. Speakers will give the most improvement. Especially since this is where you've expressed the most concern.


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## NBPk402

Have you thought about a used set of La Scalas? You could get 3 in excellent condition for your budget. They sound excellent at all levels and would be efficient enough to fill your room with sound with little power required.


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## Talley

I'd say just get a pair of Triton Three's with a Center XL...

stretch that budget a tad and buy the last speaker you need. The Triton Three's have a 800w powered bottom end that should fill the room up plenty.

doubt you would want more.


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## willis7469

Triton 3's would be nice, but I'd guarantee that the best placement for the top half of the speakers would not be best for the bottom half. Especially in that sized room. That's the trouble with the design. Although I'm saving for a pair of triton 1's myself. As you just found out bmxer, a true subwoofer in the right spot is golden. (No pun lol). There's just no way around it. I'm not trying to shoot you down btw, just saying it's gonna take a bit more.


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## tonyvdb

The bottom end on the Triton 3 is not a sub, not even close. It is just there to fill out the lows (its rated down to 21Hz but there is no way that it will output 21Hz at any real decent db's) . There is no substitute for a true subwoofer.


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## Talley

tonyvdb said:


> The bottom end on the Triton 3 is not a sub, not even close. It is just there to fill out the lows (its rated down to 21Hz but there is no way that it will output 21Hz at any real decent db's) . There is no substitute for a true subwoofer.


Yes... you and Willis are true... no replacement for a good subwoofer for the low.


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## nova

So, out of curiosity, what is it about your Primus 250's that you don't like or feel needs to be improved upon? What are your current surrounds and center? Have you done any research and/or considered room treatments?


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## Philm63

nova said:


> So, out of curiosity, what is it about your Primus 250's that you don't like or feel needs to be improved upon? What are your current surrounds and center? Have you done any research and/or considered room treatments?


After listening to other speakers in various places (friends houses, HT stores, etc.) mine sound, oh I don't know... one-dimensional? Light in the low-end? I'm not the best at describing how speakers sound, I'm learning, but don't quite have the vocabulary yet. 

What I do know is that they just don't have the range of sound I'm looking for, and that I hear in so many other speakers. These towers have two 5.25" mid-bass drivers and a 3/4" dome tweeter. They just don't sound quite as clean and clear as others I've heard recently. My center is the matching Primus C25 - pretty beefy. My LR surrounds are Def Tec PM800's.

I can push the ol' Denon X2000 up to -10 dB and the speakers sound pretty good, sure, but not "really" good, or "amazing". Still missing something in the low-end.

Haven't considered treatments yet - this is our main living room, so I've got to be careful making any such changes in here. When I do the basement HT build, the sky's the limit!


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## JBrax

I've been in the same boat as you hearing speakers that left you wanting for more than you have. Paradigm Signature 8's and JTR Noesis 212's come to mind. You don't need the vocabulary to describe it because most of us have been there. It's called upgraditis and it's a long winding road.


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## willis7469

JBrax said:


> I've been in the same boat as you hearing speakers that left you wanting for more than you have. Paradigm Signature 8's and JTR Noesis 212's come to mind. You don't need the vocabulary to describe it because most of us have been there. It's called upgraditis and it's a long winding road.


 why am I laughing hysterically?.......


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## JBrax

willis7469 said:


> why am I laughing hysterically?.......


 Was it the we want more than we have part?


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## willis7469

JBrax said:


> Was it the we want more than we have part?


 actually it was the last sentence. While I was reading that, my mind was simultaneously running through all the things I've said/will say to my wife for why I need xyz. Long and winding is right! A little slippery too sometimes.


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## Philm63

JBrax said:


> Was it the we want more than we have part?


What I saw in that response was the "...Signature 8's" - not sure I'd ever reach a level where THOSE would leave me wanting - that might require an intervention of sorts... but perhaps I am not reading into it correctly... :scratch:


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## JBrax

Philm63 said:


> What I saw in that response was the "...Signature 8's" - not sure I'd ever reach a level where THOSE would leave me wanting - that might require an intervention of sorts... but perhaps I am not reading into it correctly... :scratch:


 Simplified…The speakers listed in the post sound better than my Klipsch rf-82 ii's. Especially with music. Hope that clarified.


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## Andre

I wonder what the larger bipolar Def Techs like the BP10B would sound like in should a large room. They would probably really open up with enough power.


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## Philm63

JBrax said:


> Simplified…The speakers listed in the post sound better than my Klipsch rf-82 ii's. Especially with music. Hope that clarified.


Loud and clear now. Like a new set of speakers! I hope...



Andre said:


> I wonder what the larger bipolar Def Techs like the BP10B would sound like in should a large room. They would probably really open up with enough power.


I had considered those as well. And I think with enough juice, they'd sound just fine. Admitedly, though, I am a little skeptical about bi-polar speaker designs given my current room irregularities, but I am still just a babe in the woods here, and there is so much to learn yet; maybe bi-polar's would work quite well in my space. I'll need to look further into this one.


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## Andre

You did say you have listened to some Def tech, was it in a local store? You should ask if you can audition them in YOUR room, perhaps a weekend rental


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## Philm63

Ok, now my mind is blown, and the confusion is creeping in...

Just for giggles, I popped in a CD (Pink Floyd - The Wall) - hadn't heard this one in a LONG while, in fact; I haven't listed to music in a long while. Standard CD, standard player (no hi-def... yet), still my old Infinity Primus 250 towers and the Denon AVR-X2000. Turned on both subs, took my seat and started listening - volume set at -15 dB.

As I listened, I thought for sure the subs were sounding nice and tight, and the center full - vocals were coming in loud and clear from the center. Then I looked at the Denon and it clearly showed DIRECT on the front. What??!! So I went over and felt the subs - nothin'. Stuck my ear next to the center - nothin'! What??!!

It was actually just the two towers, and they sounded unlike I remember - they sounded pretty good! So I listened, and realized something; I've been judging my speakers solely on their ability to make movies sound good, and never put them up against some good music. 

I'm confused now, in that I don't know whether or not I should move forward with my upgrade on the front three, or get a good player that'll do SACD (and its equivalents) to get some hi-def sound to these towers and THEN let's see what they really sound like before I go replacing them!

Whatever I've got, I got it here on this forum, and I've got it baaaaad.....


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## Andre

Pink is actually quite mellow in my opinion. I know some will :rofl::rolleyesno::doh: but if you know anymore with Yanni "Live at the acropolis" try some of the lively songs, more complex music with many different instruments show speaker flaws, close your eyes, can you see and piont out instruments in different locations or do they sound like they are coming form only one? For voice I use Amanda Marshal's "beautiful goodbye". Also see if you can tell the difference between the same song on CD and on your IPod through the Denon


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## JBrax

Well that was easy. No need for upgrades if you're happy with what you have.


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## willis7469

Curious. Did you switch to PLII, or stereo(2.2) after your discovery? I personally use one of those two for music (direct once in awhile for fun), as direct defeats audyssey entirely, and my room benefits greatly from audyssey.


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## Philm63

willis7469 said:


> Curious. Did you switch to PLII, or stereo(2.2) after your discovery? I personally use one of those two for music (direct once in awhile for fun), as direct defeats audyssey entirely, and my room benefits greatly from audyssey.


Yeah, I switched back and forth between Direct and PLII, and hit Stereo, and then I found the Pure Direct button! Never knew I had all these crazy buttons! Is there any difference between Direct and Pure Direct?

It does sound quite different between Pure Direct and PLII - I actually like the way Pure Direct sounds better, at least for music.


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## willis7469

The "pure" is the same as direct, but kills the display, and video circuits. Isn't it fun discovering all the cool stuff? Lol


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## tonyvdb

Pure, also in most cases shuts off all internal processing including the sub out and I believe any room correction EQ So essentially runs the mains as full range.


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## Talley

tonyvdb said:


> Pure, also in most cases shuts off all internal processing including the sub out and I believe any room correction EQ So essentially runs the mains as full range.


which is fine if you use high level inputs on your sub.


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## Philm63

Bmxer241 said:


> which is fine if you use high level inputs on your sub.


I don't use such inputs (at least not yet...) so I don't get my subs to kick when in Pure Direct. Should I be able to, and if so, how should I go about it? (again; Denon AVR-X2000, subs both have "Speaker Level In" posts)


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## Talley

Philm63 said:


> I don't use such inputs (at least not yet...) so I don't get my subs to kick when in Pure Direct. Should I be able to, and if so, how should I go about it? (again; Denon AVR-X2000, subs both have "Speaker Level In" posts)


speaker cable from denon goes into the sub and then there should be speaker level out posts and those go to your speakers.


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## Philm63

Bmxer241 said:


> speaker cable from denon goes into the sub and then there should be speaker level out posts and those go to your speakers.


Just so I don't start a small fire - my LR Out's from the Denon; instead of going directly to my Left and Right speakers, go directly to the subs "Speaker Level" or "Hi-Level" inputs? And then the Speaker Outputs from the subs go to the L and R speakers?

If I normally run two subs (for movies and gaming), would I select only one of them for this configuration when I want to listen to music? This would at least give me some bass to go with my itsy-bitsy towers... no? Or would this not be interchangeable (because one sub is wired this way, would there be a problem switching back and forth between listening to music using Pure Direct and watching movies using PLII with LFE signals going to both subs?)


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## willis7469

The point if direct and pure is to hear it as mixed without any EQ or subs. I would say do not use high level ins ever. Unless there is a good reason. If you want subs with mains use "stereo". You can do this and turn off audyssey if you like


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## tonyvdb

Bmxer241 said:


> which is fine if you use high level inputs on your sub.


But that bypasses the .1 output on all movie soundtracks so your then at the mercy of the studios mixing as to "if" they mixed any LFE into the main channels.


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## Philm63

Yeah, I think I'll leave the sub thing alone for now. I'm sure there is a way to do it, and it would be the right way to do it, but for now, I'll just let the front speakers, well, speak for themselves. When I listen to music, I'll do it in Pure Direct, or Stereo if I want subs. 

Getting back to the speakers themselves; after some more listening today, I can see where they are lacking - mostly in the bass and the punch of kickdrums. It's just not really there. When tracks reach down low, my speakers simply do not pick it up. When I change the setup to play through the subs - there they are - all the low notes my towers will not play! Also, I'm noticing the voices and some high notes just don't have the level of clarity I think they should.

Sooooo... I'll keep my eyes on some new speakers, but for now, I'm looking at a new BDP so I can put some hi-def music through what I have now and get a better idea of what I'm actually hearing, and not hearing. This should help me make a more informed decision come speaker-purchase time.


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## willis7469

I think some QT listening is in order. One of my favorite activities. (Ironically not much activity involved lol). Stopping to listen, and "hearing" your system will go a long way to finding out what to do first. Your kick drum attack is like a combination of things, and I think smoothing the response with phase settings is going to go a long way too. Do you have an SPL meter, and smart phone? What "sound mode" do you use for movies? If you're using direct, it will defeat audyssey for movies as well. The subs will still work because of the .1 discrete track.


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## Philm63

willis7469 said:


> I think some QT listening is in order. One of my favorite activities. (Ironically not much activity involved lol). Stopping to listen, and "hearing" your system will go a long way to finding out what to do first. Your kick drum attack is like a combination of things, and I think smoothing the response with phase settings is going to go a long way too. Do you have an SPL meter, and smart phone? What "sound mode" do you use for movies? If you're using direct, it will defeat audyssey for movies as well. The subs will still work because of the .1 discrete track.


I just got my MiniDSP UMIK-1 and I have REW all set up and ready to go. Just learning how it works, and I plan to start taking measurements and goofing around with it to see what makes it tick. I've already calibrated my 5 channels to 85 dB using the SPL function - worked well, and was within less than 0.5 dB of another calibrated SPL meter I borrowed from work.

When I play movies, I let the Denon auto-detect, and it'll either go into PLIIx or Dolby EX mode. I'll use Pure Direct or Stereo only for listening to music.


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## willis7469

Rew is a lot of fun. You'll enjoy it, if you don't pull all your hair out learning it! Lol
For sound modes, if it is BD, and the denon auto selects PLII, it would mean in the disk menu, playback is set to 2.0 pcm.(some disks default to this) You'll want to go into the disk menu and select Dts-hd-ma (or Dolby true HD). (Do the same for DVDs, select 5.1 or DTS) Then it will playback full multi channel sound. Pro-logic doesn't use discrete channel information for surround channels. Sound information is derived/matrixed out of the front channels, It's fine for music, but for movies, PLII is not nearly as good, because it doesn't place sounds where they're mixed and is not what the engineers intended. If you dig it, more power to you. Just sayin, there's more on the table.


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## Philm63

willis7469 said:


> ...Pro-logic doesn't use discrete channel information for surround channels. Sound information is derived/matrixed out of the front channels, It's fine for music, but for movies, PLII is not nearly as good, because it doesn't place sounds where they're mixed and is not what the engineers intended...


Wowzers! I had no idea; and I though movies sounded great NOW... just wait until I've got things set correctly!! This just keeps getting better and better. And I certainly do not dig having a processor decide where my surround sounds are supposed to be coming from - engineers spent hours setting mics where needed to capture the space, and I want my system to recreate that effort the best it can.

I've got my new LR surrounds (Def Tec PM800's) up on the wall now, and they play louder than my old Infinity's and much cleaner, too. Still looking forward to new fronts, but having fun dialing in what I have now seems to have distracted me sufficiently so as to preserve my bank account for another month or two...


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## willis7469

It certainly is a process, but one that's worth going through. I'd say too, that you seem to be in the right place, as basically anyone who's found this site was on a quest. I for one enjoy the journey as much as the destination. I think you will too. Congrats on the new surrounds!


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## Philm63

^^ Oh, and thanks for the tip on the PLII issue - changed the BDP to output audio in True-HD, and now my Denon shows DTS-HD MA when I play a blu-ray. Sounds nice. Can't wait to get the Oppo 103D and some SACD's now...


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## JBrax

It sounds to me like you might want to ensure all of your settings are optimally set before continuing with upgrades. Once you've done that you might be surprised by what you already own.


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## chashint

tonyvdb said:


> But that bypasses the .1 output on all movie soundtracks so your then at the mercy of the studios mixing as to "if" they mixed any LFE into the main channels.


I do not have Denon, but in Pioneer AVRs, if the speakers are run through the sub, in the AVR the front mains will be set to large, and subwoofer will be set to no.
The AVR will route the .1 channel content to the front mains.
No content will be lost.


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## tonyvdb

chashint said:


> I do not have Denon, but in Pioneer AVRs, if the speakers are run through the sub, in the AVR the front mains will be set to large, and subwoofer will be set to no.
> The AVR will route the .1 channel content to the front mains.
> No content will be lost.


Not in pure or direct mode, you will get only what is sent to the left and right channels.


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## Tonto

Glad you decided to get REW & measure your room. This will identify what your room is doing to the sound & allow you to treat it. You can measure near field to see what your tweeters are doing. This will tell you if you really need to upgrade.


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## Philm63

JBrax said:


> It sounds to me like you might want to ensure all of your settings are optimally set before continuing with upgrades. Once you've done that you might be surprised by what you already own.


Eyes (and ears) are wide open now, thanks to the folks on this forum! I'll make the best of what equipment I have now, and when I am able to properly identify the speaker's shortcomings, then I'll find replacements.

Interesting how this thread started, and where it's gone; a lot has been learned.


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## JBrax

Philm63 said:


> Eyes (and ears) are wide open now, thanks to the folks on this forum! I'll make the best of what equipment I have now, and when I am able to properly identify the speaker's shortcomings, then I'll find replacements. Interesting how this thread started, and where it's gone; a lot has been learned.


 After you get everything dialed in correctly, run REW, and if need be treat your room you might be surprised. Then again you might question how much better would it be if I upgrade........fill in the blank. Wash, rinse, and repeat works the same in this hobby.


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## NBPk402

I would treat your room slowly... If you do it this way you can enjoy the improvements over time without buying new equipment. If your experience is the same as mine you will find sound treatments will make a bigger difference than equipment upgrades. I am absolutely shocked every time i do a room treatment and re run Audyssey. I am at the point right now where I have zero desire to upgrade other than get a AVP to conserve on electricity, and run all external power amps.


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## willis7469

Philm63 said:


> ^^ Oh, and thanks for the tip on the PLII issue - changed the BDP to output audio in True-HD, and now my Denon shows DTS-HD MA when I play a blu-ray. Sounds nice. Can't wait to get the Oppo 103D and some SACD's now...


 My pleasure. Just glad I had something useful to share! 
Ellis, and JBrax made good points too. A little tweaking can go a long way(sometimes backwards lol). It's common to go down the upgrade path searching for audio nirvana. The truth is, where most of us are able to spend money, proper setup goes much farther. However. Sometimes, the only way to upgrade is to upgrade.


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## Philm63

Ok, so now I've got my Oppo 103D dialed in, and have a few SACDs in stock - PF Dark Side, Norah Jones, and a demo that walks me through several HD tracks with explanations of what I should be hearing before each piece - a mind expander, for sure!

NOW I have a much better picture of what is missing in my present towers - clarity, transparency, depth - all lacking, IMHO. Sound stage sounds...well, not quite right. That last one might also be my room. 

Sooooo, I've decided to give the Chane A5 towers a shot - getting in on the group buy tomorrow - we'll see what happens next...


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## willis7469

Didn't see that coming! (Honestly) I think that's great. There was a good chance you'd have ended up with new speakers considering where this thread started, lol. But even though you're right back where you started, you're so much farther ahead. Looking forward to impressions!


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## Philm63

As soon as I got the Oppo and listened to some music on SACDs, I decided to revisit the Audyseey settings to learn more about how it works, and what it changes. I discovered it was turned OFF (I thought I'd left that ON, or was that the coffee maker...?) So, I ran it using my new boom-stand with the Denon mic placed in 8 different locations (6 all around the MLP, and each seat on either side of me) and discovered I had my manual set up pretty close, but it scaled my speakers to about a foot further away than what I had measured with my tape measure, and altered the levels slightly. It had also changed the crossover settings to 60 Hz for the fronts and 100 Hz for the LR surrounds - I had all set to 80 Hz previously.

When I listened to it using room correction, it did sound different to me - I switched it ON and OFF to be sure of what I was hearing - with it ON it sounded as if the music enveloped me better, it was in my head instead of out in front of me. I could start to see the imaging. But the sound still was not as I had heard in other set-ups with better speakers, amps, etc. Of course.

I did go and listen to the PSB X2t's - they were pretty nice, indeed. Had the guy drive them with an AVR similar to what I have at home to see what they'd do with similar quality and power. They sounded much better than my towers for sure. But then he did something I didn't expect; he threw a switch that changed what was driving the speakers from the AVR to a 2-channel amp with less power than the AVR - can't remember the brand - but I thought he had changed speakers on me! Nope. It was still the X2t's. They opened up in a way that fooled me into thinking they were different speakers. Great! Now I'm REALLY messed up!!

So this is why I made the decision to just hunker down and go for the front 3 and relax for a while, and let go of the whole "gotta get an amp now, and a pre/pro, and... and... and..." These things would've (and will some day) cost a lot more than I was planning to spend on speakers. So the Chanes will come in at around a grand for the front 3 hence the decision to go that route. I'm getting a bit overwhelmed by all that I can do to improve my system - gotta slow down a bit and let each of these changes sink in so I can understand what is changing and why. This is fun. Expensive, but fun.


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## willis7469

I agree with your philosophy totally. Take your time. It will help the knowledge you learn along the way, be absorbed more completely. Especially doing the work yourself. Nothing like experience!


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