# Newbie looking to build first set...



## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

I'd like to make a build a set of speakers... A little larger than book shelf but a little smaller than full size. I am thinking about 6 inch full range driver 2-way system. Does anyone have alink to some plans that I could look at... Maybe some drivers to use? I am trying to figure out how to make sure the Box is of the correct size. I am playing around with a program called WINISD and I am not sure if that program is just for building subwoofers or also full range speaker boxes. I'd like to keep the budget around 250usd or less.

Fschris


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## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Ok well where are you using the speakers? Do you want bookshelves or just skinny floor standing speakers or what? There are a lot of great designs out there and I can probably help make you a recommendation.

Where are you using them? What are you listening to? Are you using them with a sub or not? What do you want them to look like?


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## Chester (Feb 19, 2007)

do you care about bass; if you do, do you plan to use a subwoofer also?

edit: also, how 'full range' do you want them? the larger the speaker diameter the lower the 'breakup mode' (where the speaker is no longer a piston and is more like a 'floppy' piece of material) of the cone, but the more efficient the speaker will be (typically louder with less watts)...

I made a pair of full range speakers; my budget was almost twice what you are shooting for though and some of the materials I already had on hand; what do you have to work with?

my project: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-speakers/21448-build-dc-gold-n7r-steel-enclosure.html

Good choice to shoot for a fullrange speaker though; you are on the right track 

as far as companies to check out I would look at the company I used; DC Gold audio, the list of my speaker transducers was ~$430 per pair however I found them for ~$290; I just did a google product search for "N7r" (the transducers I used) and found a pair of 4 ohm N7r's for $189 <http://www.vesselprotectionproducts.com/dc-gold-n7r-7-reference-series-speaker-black-4-ohm-p-1066.html?zenid=d30662d1200d85797618b78ee1a70f8a> I don't know if that is an error or not since the 8 ohm ones are all listed ~$280 at best, I don't know if you *need* 8 ohms, but if you do not then maybe consider that 4 ohm'er for $190 

EDIT (again i know!): DC gold also has a 6x9 which I have heard great things about; the 6x9, shape helps to reduce breakup modes (or at least 'space' them out instead of being concentrated at a certain resonance); for some reason some of the pictures online show the cones to be blue in color behind the grills, they are black; I don't know what's up with that: must be older pictures, I can give David a shout sometime soon if that matters...


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## Yad (Oct 19, 2009)

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm there are lot's of links 

I think this one http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/AT-SW.htm will be a perfect choice for a many years forward. 
I have an experience of use "true ribbon" tweeters. I'm exited.


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## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

I was going to see what he had in mind before I started throwing stuff out. However if you have $250 to spend you could get a Tritrix kit from partsexpress, which make a great set of mains and pretty nice musical speakers. The transmission line has bass output down to around. The kit costs $119 with free shipping. If you're not handy with woodworking you can buy the premade MDF cabinets for another $98. Buy some wood glue and some paint and you're still in under $250.

If you're good with wood you can make your own cabinets for less than half of $98. Then you can take the money you've saved and start working towards a DIY sub to go with them.

Check it out

Otherwise if $250 is your budget you're going to have to give us more to go on, and probably be willing to make some compromises. Even when DIYing you can't build a really nice set of full range speakers with really great sound, good definition and plenty of deep bass for $250 for a pair. But you can do it for less than $600 or so for a pair.


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## Yad (Oct 19, 2009)

do you think $ 250 is too small money for real hi-fi ? (i do think so)


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## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

I think a set of $250 speakers can sound great. My microbes sound and I would consider them to be very hi-fi but they do not have much bass. A sub makes them perfect tho. However if you want loud speakers with a lot of bass and only have $250 to spend then you will probably have to sacrafice having really excellt mids and highs for a bigger louder less expensive speaker. This is a classic pick 3 situation

Cost less than $250
Has lots of bass
Has sparking highs and beautiful mids.

Pick 2 of the above items, ignore the 3rd.


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

Mostly for music....acoutsic, folk, blue grass, classic guitar, pink floyd. no Rap or heavy metal. a skinny pair of floor standing would be okay... My living room is not big. maybe 15ftx20ft. i see so many drivers and then I am wondering about the cross overs. i have a yamaha rcv... HTR 5990.
If 250 is too cheap I can spend more. I thought a DIY could save money versus buying a pair of pre made speakers. I am looking to build the cabinets from scratch.

what about these on ebay item#170399596841


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

if I were to spend 600 for a pair.... what kinds of parts am I looking to get into to?


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## Chester (Feb 19, 2007)

you mentioned diy could save money; it definitely can however you mentioned you wanted hi-fi and fullrange speakers. True fullrange speakers (a single voice coil for the lows, mids and highs) are not very common (at least I feel they are not that common) so the price you would pay for a given quality of fullrange speakers (diy or not) will probably be higher than you would pay for a 'comparable' two or three way system, not that I consider them to be comparable, I am just referring to a similar high and low frequency response; there are other benefits of fullrange speakers that cannot be achieved by a crossed-over system however being able to achieve those benefits are what is increasing the price  

my speakers probably cost ~$630-670 to make all said and done, however some of my materials are left over (in my calculation I tried to figure what the cost of the material I used would be, like I used rock-wool, well I didn't use all of my rock-wool in these speakers so I pro-rated the price). The thing to remember though is that a pair of speakers with the same qualities could easily go for $3000 (I honestly am not that into the market so I could be a bit off; most everything I do is DIY so it is tough to figure a price comparison not being familiar with current manufacture's prices)

EDIT/Note: keep in mind I used a lot of 'exotic' materials in my speakers, sorbothane, line-x, steel enclosures, and the rear-mounting/decoupling system probably make up ~$280-300 of the price I mentioned earlier. Using MDF I could see enclosures built for ~$40-80, maybe less if you already own the board  

the thing is, as far as my mid's are concerned I am completely happy and would not change anything on them; which is not a very easy state to achieve in the DIY world, every time you finish a project you inevitably end up learning something new which gives you new ideas; so throughout time there probably will be a lot of 'upgrades', it is that way with most hobbies; so in the long run it can save money to spend a little more and make sure you get exactly what you want in the first place


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## Yad (Oct 19, 2009)

Matt is right. 
But if we shall talk about speakers, that you could buy, i'll tell that (here in russia) i ve never heard "world-wide branded" speakers (with the price less than 1000 Euros) which could satisfy my ear-taste. 

I really liked B&W 800 D series, but the sound of CM series made me nervous and angry. 

I was disappointed a lot with DALI IKON 6 

I also was amazed with DYNAUDIO's BM5A, BM15A (studio) and was dissapointed with their most part of "domestic" speakers

But note, those speakers are close ore much more than $1000. 

That's why i can suggest a 1000$ as a flag-point. DIY speakers with the same sound (>2000$) will be cost not less than 600-700 $. 

By another hand, many of my friends are not agree with me. And they are enjoy with some chip multimedia speakers ))) Guys told me, that i'm a @[email protected] ))))

P.S. Matt's speakers (if they will be made with a "cool-brand" manufacturer) will be probably cost more than $3000. ))))) Especially in back-loaded horn enclosure. 

*fschris * , Do youhave a shop & some tools ?


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## Chester (Feb 19, 2007)

I agree with Yad, the thing is, you will at some point need to decide if you are 'seeking perfection' or if you want to save some money
-if you are trying to both, then I would say it is likely you will be an "upgrader" which is just fine, but if that is you then id say spend the money now and save some down the road

-if you are just "seeking perfection" then you need to concentrate on *research* look at every sort of feature and technology that companies offer and pick what you feel will help the most and incorporate them into your speaker (I fit in this category, I do a lot more reading/planning than actual building, though I do upgrade when I have many new ideas I want to use/build)

-if you are just trying to save money (and get good quality) then you should research (especially since this is your first project, consider every possible feature because there typically *is* a best way to do something, but knowing what that way is usually comes with hands on experience) but if you can't see yourself in the future reading about driver decoupling or some other uncommon way of doing things and thinking ' I wish I knew about that when I built my speakers' then it may not be as beneficial to try and learn about all the various methods of doing things, but I still would definitely try and find out all you can about the methods/materials you plan to use so that you can get the best possible build quality


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## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Well Chris you can save money with DIY, assuming a few things. You need to already have some tools and a bit of know how, and you need to have expensive tastes in speakers. If you're happy with a Aiwa $300 home theater in a box from the local Best Buy then you should buy that because its impossible to beat the price of those things, they're just made too cheaply. But if you want nice, or really nice audiophile class speakers you can build speakers that sound like $1000, $2500 or even $5000+ for under $500-$1000.

For or around $250 I would recommend the Tritrix kit I linked to you. It is a 6" wide floor standing speaker with good output that will play down into the 40hz range when built in the transmission line configuration. If you google Tritrix and read what people say about them they are very well received everywhere. Everyone likes them. At Dayton DIY Competition 2007 they took first place in the budget category. I'm sure they would not disappoint you for the price and they fit your criteria quite well.

Now if you want something better than the Tritrix allow me to make a few sugguestions.

The Cryolites - If you build these as a ported floor standing design they will have very very nice mids and highs and respectable bass down to 50hz probably. They fit your budget and meet your requirements.

Thunder Sticks - May fit your bill as a tall skinny floor standing speaker with good full range.

Now if you want to spend a bit more there are a lot of nice designs for under $600

Go Here -Look at the Natalie P, RSTMWW and Statements

or go to 

Romans Site - Where he has plenty of good designs that run all over the place in price. I built his microbes and love them. They don't have that much bass but with a pair of subs I love them!

And theres plenty more info out there but this should get you started. Btw, I recommend that to get started out you build someone else's design for this reason.

Btw Chester, when he says Full Range Speaker I think he just means a speaker capable of lows without the help of subwoofers using multiple drivers. I don't think he means a single full range driver like you think.


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## Chester (Feb 19, 2007)

Ohh, evilskillit; your probably right  sometimes I forget that other people don't define 'fullrange' like i do


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## Yad (Oct 19, 2009)

*evilskillit* :T very interesting and useful articles with speakers! I do like ribbons as a tweeter. 
It could imagine, that it will be nice to use some true ribbon with Chester's wide-range. Maybe with the 1-st order crossover network with film-and foil inductors and MUNDORF supreme capacitors... What do you think, Chester ?


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## Yad (Oct 19, 2009)

By the way,true fullranges have the best phase response. But the worth Doppler-distortion... 
I think they are for not very loud, but for very comfortable listening. They should perfectly show a music space


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## Chester (Feb 19, 2007)

Well, it would definitely be fun to play with; though a primary reason I am using full range speakers is to have as 'point source' of sound as I can so using a crossover and a second transducer would defeat that a little 

edit: I have my speakers crossed over at 80 hz (a wavelength is ~14 ft) so the difference in distance between the sub, speakers and listener has a negligible impact on the phase coherency (rockin' 24 db/oct crossovers so there is a 360 degree phase shift)


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## Chester (Feb 19, 2007)

the amount of dopler distortion is dependent on the volume; the larger the displacement the more distortion  however with a complex *music* signal I would consider getting a coherent waveform (minimizing phase cancellation/addition) to be a bigger issue 

Rod Elliot (measurement and graphs): http://sound.westhost.com/doppler.htm
Linkwitz (math proof): http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers.htm#J

edit/note: I do think that crossovers (and tweeters) have a place in audio, just that they are more necessary when you are trying to produce high pressures (lots of driver displacement)


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## Yad (Oct 19, 2009)

http://www.duevel.com/Produkte/E_Sirius.shtml 2 way, but very close to the "point- source"


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

Thanks for all the info and ideas and what to think about

I kind of like the look of these and what they would offer in terms of sound.... what do you think?

rjbaudio.c0m ... Extremis


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## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

The Extremis are a very neat design. Originally I wanted to make the Extremis for my first speaker. However the woofer that is used in those speakers has been discontinued. You would have to ask someone who can design crossovers like Mr RJB himself, or someone else to adapt it to work with the CSS SDX7 woofer, or the Exodus Audio Anarchy. Any other high displacement long stroke 6.5" woofer would be similar but would not be a drop in replacement and would require that the crossover be adjusted. That would be a good one tho, and if you made it into a tall skinny floor standing unit, if you wanted, it could have even slightly more bass.

Btw Chris, some day I want to see what all the fuss is about with full range drivers. I want to buy one of the affordable fostex drivers, something in the $50-$70 range and build ported cabinets or transmission line cabinets or horn cabinets and see what all interest is. If I like them then that will rock. If not then I guess I won't be out very much money as I could probably sell them for what I paid for them.


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## Chester (Feb 19, 2007)

Yeah those duevel's look pretty cool; I actually had an idea to do something like that when I was younger (before I had seen the concept done before)... Hope to play around with such a design in the future  the only thing that I could see being an issue is the vertical axis frequency response


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

Matt... I found a pair of speakers close to those Peerless on ebay brand new.... Peerless 830344. I have the data sheet on them as well. Can you advise about building cross overs or should I buy a pair pre made? BTW... I must have mis-spoke when i said "full range" I guess a 2 way system with some basic speakers are different than " full range " speakers.


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## Chester (Feb 19, 2007)

Hey, I typically use digital crossovers (since I do a lot of EQ work too) so I cannot advise on build a crossover; from what I understand it is better to use 'active' crossovers (each voice coil has its own amplifier channel), I know it is good to get the crossover out of the range of frequencies the ear is most sensitive too , if you could give a link to the auction and or the data sheet I would be glad to take a look at the specs though


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

http://www.madisound.com/pdf/peerless/830344.pdf


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## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

I would advise against rolling your own design your first time around, unless you are already an electrical engineer with some knowledge of audio filter design. Designing crossovers that sound good is not easy. Ive been casually reading up on it for a year or 2 now and I'm only now beginning to buy the gear I'm going to need to be able to make my own designs and am getting a basic understanding of what I'll need to do to make my own crossovers.

Using premade crossovers with any speakers no matter how good almost always yields unsatisfactory results. Here is a link that shows what speakers look like when put together using pre-made crossovers vs crossovers that are designed to work with those speakers by someone who knows what they're doing.

Also someone has done a great writeup on why it is best to try someone else's design first before you take a shot at doing your own. Here it is.

Please read and consider these two links before you either A. Start designing your own speaker, a process that will require special software, hardware and probably a good year or 2 of learning and trial and error, or B. Make your own speaker using an off the shelf crossover that will take up your time for you to build, cost you some money, tho not as much as a whole pre-made speaker, but most likely, just not sound very good.


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## Yad (Oct 19, 2009)

*evilskillit* is right 
Engineering of a good crossover is not easy. 
1. You should measure all real speaker's parameters without enclosure or at the reference baffle.
2. You make a project, that gives you the most correct placing of your drivers in your speakers and the design of the box too. It also counts "baffle step" of your enclosure.
3. You make pre-calculations of your crossover 
4. you make the box and mount all your drivers to it (without crossover) 
5. You measure all parameters of your drivers in your enclosure. They, surely, will be a little different with #1, but it will be enough to update your electric network
6. Update your crossover 
7. make your crossover and connect to the speaker/
8. measure again and listen. 
9. update your real network. (real elements are differ than in CAD/CAM programs) 
10. measure and listen again. 
11. Enjoy )))


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## Yad (Oct 19, 2009)

Some of CAD/CAM programs are better, some are worth, but the algorithm will be the same. 
May be, you will not make a #1 , if drivers are already in your soft's database ;
You may not do #3, if you don't care about circuit-elements and their price, or anything else...


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## Yad (Oct 19, 2009)

That's why it's better to repeat (copy) an existed DIY project.


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

thanks i will stick to copying a DIY project.... there is no shame in that !


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## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

None what so ever. Thats what 99% of us do the first time. Then if the bug gets you and you want to try designing your own you'll already have some knowledge from having done a build. And you'll have a set of nice speakers to listen to while you make your own design.


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## oldbar (Feb 16, 2007)

When starting out the best thing to do is build something that is already done.There are lots of projects on the web for you to build.


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## Chester (Feb 19, 2007)

it definitely would not hurt to learn and play around with programs such as WinISD pro (that's what I started on); I would recommend trying to figure out what all the T/S parameters actually *mean*, yes, a speaker may have an Fs, Qts, X-max, etc. but what does that tell you about it?  Copying is a great way to learn though; just be sure to try and pickup on the nuances too... ex. a nascar driver is not just driving around the track, he is probably thinking (or at least subconsciously) about hundreds of things; yes, anyone could probably drive a car around the track, however a professional driver would likely do a better job due to the processes/thoughts going on in his head... another example; if you look at this page: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers.htm on the Linkwitz-Lab site; he discusses many of the issues (things he thinks about) when designing a speaker, even if you are copying someones design, keeping those things in mind will probably help you get a better final product.


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## Yad (Oct 19, 2009)

My first speakers (at the 1995-98) were some DIYs from the 1980-s audio magazine. Only in 99-2000 i created the first 100%-mine speakers ))) 

I'm sure , that DIY copying is a very useful and great thing.


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

okay i think i may go for the gusto with this right here http://www.zaphaudio.com/SR71.html


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## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Interestingly Chris. Ive got the bug to upgrade my mains and the SR71 is one of the projects I'm highly considering because I feel within the budget that I would have available that the SR71 may be one of the best sounding speakers.

You know you can buy the whole thing from Madisound - the boxes and you get a 10% price break, which is pretty substantial.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_425&products_id=8307

Your you can buy the cabinets from them too but I feel that you can save a lot of money if you just build your own.


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

i plan to go for my own build to save money and to work on some of my wood working skills. I have a question about building the cross overs. When reading those schematics for the SR71's... I am not quite sure how they are put together. Other crossovers I can see a loop and and how all the wires are laid out and connected... on the SR71 crossover there are arrows that point down ( most likely a ground) does anyone have a link a 101 schematic reading and building site ?

The crossover here I can fully comprehend how to build http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JA8008_DTQWT.htm


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## 1Michael (Nov 2, 2006)

Zaph has some good stuff. I made this awhile back http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-speakers/18814-budget-8-dayton-classic-mtm-rocks.html
Here are a bunch of great designs http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39


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## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Yeah there arrow should mean to ground, aka negative terminal. The madisound kit without the cabinets is the drivers plus crossovers all together for 10% off. So you can't really beat that price unless you buy way cheaper crossover parts and terminal cups. Google "how to read electrical schematics" or something. I just found an electrical engineer at work and had him explain it to me. Its not hard once you get the hang of it.

If you end up doing SR71s let us know. I'm thinking about them too.


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

Hi Folks... so I have not started my speaker project yet. I am actually going to take a turn first before I build a 2-way set. I have been reading a lot on these forums about the intricacies of speaker building. Getting to know how to use winISD and what the numbers mean. I would like to build a 10" sub for my HT with an AMP plate. I would like to build the box. Can you suggest a link for plans? I am just looking to copy a good design at this point ( just like my 2 way project).

thanks
FSCHRIS


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## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Well here is a link to the members sub database.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-subwoofers/9265-members-diy-subwoofer-database.html

Building a sub is pretty easy if you know how to use WinISD or UniBox or any other modeling program.

Get an idea of what you want, maybe pick a driver. Model it and find out what size enclosure and port you need to hit your target tuning. Then make a box with that much space inside and a port in it.

I'm not sure wether you live in your own house or an apartment or if there are size considerations but if you want to build an HT sub a 10" might be a bit on the small side.

My advice would be start a thread in the sub forum with your goals in it, what speaker you think you want, or what your budget is, or what your size constraints are and what you want the speaker to do and you'll get tons of helpful input.

Btw, if you're wanting a 10" because you want a small but rocking HT sub I'll leave you with this.

Small Size
Plays Low and Loud
Cheap

Pick any 2...


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## caminoguy (Oct 27, 2009)

I highly recommend zaph's sr71 package from madisound. I built a pair using parts express curved .5 cu. ft cabinets and they sound great.


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