# One Newb's journey to find his "perfect" speaker



## ALMFamily

The title says it plain - I am a speaker newb / novice / insert many other terms here. After starting to read some of Nuance's speaker "VisionQuest" (ahhh the 80's movies), I thought it might be good to start a thread from the perspective of someone who has no clue what a good speaker really sounds like.

For the last several years, I have had the Bose Acoustimass 10 and felt I was living on top of the world as I had "surround sound". When I decided early last year to start looking into building a dedicated HT room, I thought I was already set for speakers. HA! I discovered a whole world of floorstanders, bookshelfs, centers, bipoles, dipoles...... the list goes on.

So, I did what every potential DIYer does - I started to read everything I could get my hands on (so glad I finally found HTS!). Since I can only work so late into the evening (kids are light sleepers :sad, I thought I would spend some time trying to understand what I should be looking for when I start auditioning speakers.

Let me just say now - I HIGHLY recommend auditioning speakers. Not from a experienced point of view - as I said, I have no experience at all. It is more from the excitement - I am as giddy as a schoolboy thinking of the next couple months just listening to as many speakers as I can.

So, the first thing I suggest - read! There is a great post right here in this forum - check out this sticky if you have not already. 

I started out by doing the wrong thing first - I started trying to find shops where I could go audition speakers. The reason this was wrong? If I went to the shop, what would I use as a comparison to determine if one speaker was better than another? IMO, the first thing that needs to happen is to create your audition tracks - your collection of music / movie with which your are intimately familiar so that you know when you go in what you are listening to and what you expect to hear. I don't expect to sit for an entire movie - I will only have a small part from a movie I enjoy and promise to keep my eyes closed the whole time. :bigsmile:

So, if you have stayed with me this long, thanks for listening. My next post will be for what I am looking for from a speaker and what I have decided on for an audition list.

If anyone wants to chime in with suggestions for speakers to have a go at, please do - I am keeping a running list. If you have suggestions for what you think I should be looking for, I am all ears.

Thanks all!

ALMFamily Speaker Audition List


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## robbo266317

I don't know what speakers are available to you locally so I won't comment on that.
My problem with listening to speakers in-store is just that! They are not in your listening environment. (plus the distraction of all the glitz and "buy me now")


Cheers,
Bill.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Ah Vision Quest... Tom Cruise was a Wrestler or something if memory serves. Well, Pardon the pun and the actual Native American significance of a Vision Quest, but switching from a Bose Acoustimass to a quality Speaker Array will be something similar. If you could give us your budget, it would help greatly as it is impossible to deduce.
Cheers.
JJ


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## ALMFamily

robbo266317 said:


> I don't know what speakers are available to you locally so I won't comment on that.
> My problem with listening to speakers in-store is just that! They are not in your listening environment. (plus the distraction of all the glitz and "buy me now")
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Bill.


Point well taken Bill - my ultimate goal is to pare the list down to a select few and then do my best to audition those in my own room.



Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Ah Vision Quest... Tom Cruise was a Wrestler or something if memory serves. Well, Pardon the pun and the actual Native American significance of a Vision Quest, but switching from a Bose Acoustimass to a quality Speaker Array will be something similar. If you could give us your budget, it would help greatly as it is impossible to deduce.
> Cheers.
> JJ


Very close Jack! Matthew Modine was VisionQuest - Tom Cruise was All the Right Moves. Both movies I watched a number of times. :bigsmile:

I apologize for not giving more detail about what I was looking for - it was late and I just wanted to get my thoughts out before they all left me - it seems the first thing to go has been my mind. :dumbcrazy:

Here is what I believe I will be looking for - these parameters are of course subject to change as I gain experience and knowledge (hopefully!):

*Budget* - I am planning for a 7.2 system, and I have already purchased my subs. I am not sure if it matters what the subs are, but just in case I have 2 PB-13 Ultras. After reading the fine sticky in this forum and many other posts by the fine people here, I understand I may need to build over time. That said, I would like to spend $5k or less.

*Speaker Parameters* - this is where my lack of experience really comes into play. After reading through a few threads and as many articles as I could Google, here is what I think is important to me:

1. They must "disappear" in the room. I really don't like the thought of being able to centralize where the sound is coming from.

2. I will not be able to go with 3 towers across the front as the speakers will be on the stage and a tower center would block a portion of the screen. That said, the L / C / R will be visible so I would like something aesthetically pleasing. I know this is highly subjective - I just want to steer clear of speakers that look like this. 

3. This room will be predominantly used for movies with a smattering of sporting events and some music listening. I would say probably a 70% movies, 15% sporting events, 15% music split. So, the L / R should be able to handle 2 channel reasonably well for music, but if I have to give something up, this is definitely the one as movies are most important for me.

4. I am an avid instrumental / classical music lover (well, I like all types of music except Rap) so I want a set of speakers that I can "hear" the strings, horns, etc. and be able to pick them out while also being able to handle my Iron Maiden / Metallica fix.

5. I want to hear content as it was meant to be heard - is this is what is referred to as flat response? I suppose no speaker is really able to manage a completely flat response - I would love to be able to understand this better so any book / article you might suggest would be great! But, as I said, it would be nice to be able to hear content as it was meant to be heard.

If there are any other considerations I may have missed, please let me know.

Thanks all! :T


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## TypeA

Serious subs youve got going on there and you definitely have that covered. $5k just for speakers, you have power and processing covered already? Maybe its well below what you have budgeted but I have been drooling over the recently released Martin Logan bookshelf speakers, the LX16s. No pro reviews yet but ownership of six or seven electrostats for $2k, from a name like ML, very much has my attention. Dale was saying theyre a little hungry so probably be best driven with a dedicated amp, additional $1k to the price...

Their product site made me laugh, "Minimalistic Design Featuring Luxurious Real-Wood", apparently that refers to the gorgeous finish as these bookshelf speakers are 3/4" MDF. 

http://www.martinlogan.com/motionSeries/motion-lx16.php


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## ALMFamily

So, on to my audition list. No laughing now! :R


*TV Song - Blue Man Group* 

I selected this song for it's many different percussion levels. It really is quite amazing what they are able to do with some PVC. The "drum wall" used in this song is amazingly low bass. 

*August's Rhapsody - Soundtrack from August Rush*

This is one of those orchestral songs I really like - lots of string work with some horn and flute work showing up at specific points. The cello work here is one of my personal favorites.

*Peter Gabriel - Don't Give Up*

This is one of those points where most will go "What are you thinking about Joe?!", but I really love Peter Gabriel's vocal range. I selected this song because the melody is very simple and all background - the vocals carry the song. An added bonus is Kate Bush's vocals - she has more of what I would consider an "alto" tone.

*Queen - Who Want to Live Forever*

I added this based on a suggestion from Andre in post #38. I had also heard this song many time before as it is in one of my favorite movies (Highlander) and Freddy really does have the ability to stretch the male vocal range.

*Lift the Wings - Aine Ui Cheallaigh - Riverdance soundtrack*

Again, an entry from a show I saw live and have been enamoured with ever since. This is the 1st of 2 from that soundtrack. She has a hauntingly beautiful voice and amazing vocal range and this song also includes an orchestral background.

*Riverdance - Riverdance soundtrack*

This one has quite a few things going on - high soprano voice, choir vocals, and quick, lively instrumental work.

*The Clairvoyant - Iron Maiden*

My metal selection :bigsmile: - this one has loads of heavy guitar action and some nice percussion as well. Plus, I have always had a soft spot for Bruce Dickinson.

*Angel - Sarah Mclachlan*
I added this song based on the advice from Kadijk in post #25 - _ have one song that is an absolute "must" in any speaker audition session, and once you listen to it you'll know why. It has rich midrange, some bass extension, and some high range. In home theater, and music, good clear midrange is critical, and I think this song will demonstrate a speakers ability or lack of it quickly. Get to know Sarah McLachlan's song Angel. Play it soft, play it LOUD. Enjoy and have fun_. I have heard this song many times, but of course forgot about it when compiling my list. Added! 

*The White Tree and Minas Tirith - Return of the King soundtrack*

I noticed a decided lack of any music in my audition list that included a good portion of a horn section. Fortunately for me, Howard Shore does an excellent job in the LOTR soundtracks and I picked two that had a good amount included. 

*L.P. (for Les Paul) - Lee Ritenoir's 6 String Theory*

I added this track based on the suggestion of Tonyvdb in post #28. I did not have a good jazz tune in my line-up, and after listening to a bit of the album, this track really felt like a good combination of string, percussion, and piano to me. As Tony stated, good variety and dynamic recording.

That's it - am I way off base or have I covered most of what I should be?


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## ALMFamily

TypeA said:


> Serious subs youve got going on there and you definitely have that covered. $5k just for speakers, you have power and processing covered already? Maybe its well below what you have budgeted but I have been drooling over the recently released Martin Logan bookshelf speakers, the LX16s. No pro reviews yet but ownership of six or seven electrostats for $2k, from a name like ML, very much has my attention. Dale was saying theyre a little hungry so theyll probably be best driven with a dedicated amp...
> 
> Their product site made me laugh, "Minimalistic Design Featuring Luxurious Real-Wood", apparently that refers to the gorgeous finish as these bookshelf speakers are 3/4" MDF.
> 
> http://www.martinlogan.com/motionSeries/motion-lx16.php


Thanks for the reply Ty!

I do - I already have the Onkyo 809 as well as an Emotiva XPA-5. My original thought was to have the XPA-5 driving the L/C/R anf the surrounds and have the 809 power the rears. I also have a UPA-2 that I plan to use for 2 channel duty driving zone 2 in my future workshop.

Fortunately for me, the closest store to me - University Audio - carries Martin Logan's so I should be able to give them a listen. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## TypeA

Hey ALMFamily, Ikarius pointed out that these Martin Logans are NOT "electrostats" as I incorrectly labeled them. The tweeter is actually called a, "High Velocity Folded Ribbon." Sorry for the rookie mistake.


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## ALMFamily

That is good news to me - I had been reading that the electrostat ML's can be a bit tricky to get good sound on...... Thanks!!


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## tesseract

High Velocity Folded Ribbon is Martin Logan marketing speak for the good 'ole Heil AMT driver. The patent recently ran out and several companies pounced on the opportunity.


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## Jungle Jack

tesseract said:


> High Velocity Folded Ribbon is Martin Logan marketing speak for the good 'ole Heil AMT driver. The patent recently ran out and several companies pounced on the opportunity.


Indeed. I too have pointed this out more times than I can count. As a ML Owner, it does distress me to know it no longer automatically equates to Electrostatic and Electrostatic Hybrid Speakers. They even have a 5.1 Speaker Package in a Box using Dome Tweeters! Truly disconcerting and it really feels like since Founder Gayle Sanders sold the company to ShoreView that in many cases they are now leveraging on decades of excellence to sell some Speakers that could not possibly be more different than what a Martin Logan Speaker used to be. Don't get me wrong, the ESL Series and Reserve ESL Series are still fantastic. As is the EM-ESL. It is also horrible that even the $25,000 CLX is no longer Made in America. All the while they call themselves "The Great American Speaker Company"

Back on topic, as you already have a wonderful Subwoofer and given Music matters to you, I would audition Focals, Dynaudio, Thiel, and upper range MartinLogans. The first 3 are the Brands which I am debating over when I switch out my Speaker Array some time in the next few months. At this moment, it is between Focal and Thiel. I would start with Focal. Their Inverted Dome Tweeters are some of the finest Tweeters extant and Companies like Wilson Audio use their Tweeters on the $150,000+ Alexandria and Models below.
Cheers,
JJ


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## ALMFamily

Jungle Jack said:


> Indeed. I too have pointed this out more times than I can count. As a ML Owner, it does distress me to know it no longer automatically equates to Electrostatic and Electrostatic Hybrid Speakers. They even have a 5.1 Speaker Package in a Box using Dome Tweeters! Truly disconcerting and it really feels like since Founder Gayle Sanders sold the company to ShoreView that in many cases they are now leveraging on decades of excellence to sell some stinkers. Don't get me wrong, the ESL Series and Reserve ESL Series is still fantastic. As is the EM-ESL. It is also horrible that even the $25,000 CLX is no longer Made in America. All the while they call themselves "The Great American Speaker Company"
> 
> Back on topic, as you already have a wonderful Subwoofer and given Music matters to you, I would audition Focals, Dynaudio, Thiel, and upper range MartinLogans. The first 3 are the Brands which I am debating over when I switch out my Speaker Array some time in the next few months. At this moment, it is between Focal and Thiel. I would start with Focal. Their Inverted Dome Tweeters are some of the finest Tweeters extant and Companies like Wilson Audio use their Tweeters on the $150,000+ Alexandria and Models below.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Jack,

I have made an assumption - and perhaps I am wrong in this - that if a speaker performs well for music, it will perform well for HT use as well. Is that a bad generalization to make on my part? I will be using this area predominantly for movies, and if I am incorrect in my thinking here I will more than likely want to make sure whatever I get performs for movie content and use zone 2 on my 809 for 2 channel music in my workshop.

Joe


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I believe this assumption to be correct as well. Music Reproduction is far more demanding when it comes to accuracy and I have never spoken to a Sales Rep, Company Rep, or even Professional Audio Writer that does not believe this to be the case. 
Cheers,
JJ


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## ALMFamily

Thanks Jack - I will add those to my research list. On the plus side, I know that there is at least one dealer within an hours drive that carries at the very least Focal and Thiel. :clap:


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## TypeA

Jungle Jack said:


> They even have a 5.1 Speaker Package in a Box using Dome Tweeters! Truly disconcerting and it really feels like since Founder Gayle Sanders sold the company to ShoreView that in many cases they are now leveraging on decades of excellence to sell some stinkers.


Bummer you find it disconcerting. Apparently actual owners find these Martin Logan 5.1 speaker packages a continuation of excellence, stinkers doesnt seem to be the consensus. Im sure youll find that exclusive feeling again Jack but I am glad to see Energy has new competition just the same. 



ALMFamily said:


> I know that there is at least one dealer within an hours drive that carries at the very least Focal and Thiel


Im envious so many choices are a reasonable distance and youll get to hear some of the finest names in audio. Very much looking forward to hearing your impressions, have fun but take notes eh?


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## caper26

Some suggestions are:
Energy Veritas or RC series
Monitor Audio Silver or Gold Series
Paradigm Studio Series


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## Jungle Jack

TypeA said:


> Bummer you find it disconcerting. Apparently actual owners find these Martin Logan 5.1 speaker packages a continuation of excellence, stinkers doesnt seem to be the consensus. Im sure youll find that exclusive feeling again Jack but I am glad to see Energy has new competition just the same.
> 
> 
> I was afraid that might come off as elitist, but I really tried to explain that for decades Martin Logan meant Electrostatic Speakers. Period. It is not about about exclusivity. To me at least. And more companies than I can count do 5.1 Packages so Energy is but one of a drove of them. All the same, I do regret that my Post was interpreted that way.
> 
> Also, I have linked to the MLT-2 Package countless times due to Newegg selling it for $299 as opposed to the $899 MSRP. There is a reason for it being sold for that little. I would recommend checking out the ML Owners Club as there is barely a mention of the MLT-2.


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## ALMFamily

TypeA said:


> Bummer you find it disconcerting. Apparently actual owners find these Martin Logan 5.1 speaker packages a continuation of excellence, stinkers doesnt seem to be the consensus. Im sure youll find that exclusive feeling again Jack but I am glad to see Energy has new competition just the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Im envious so many choices are a reasonable distance and youll get to hear some of the finest names in audio. Very much looking forward to hearing your impressions, have fun but take notes eh?


Definitely plan to take notes - I am actually planning on using a list much like the one in the sticky and assigning a 1-10 rating for each with a summary so I can refer back later.



caper26 said:


> Some suggestions are:
> Energy Veritas or RC series
> Monitor Audio Silver or Gold Series
> Paradigm Studio Series


Thanks for the suggestions Caper26! Again, fortunately for me, I can at least find the MA's and the Studios within an hour of me. I will have to check for an Energy dealer.



Jungle Jack said:


> TypeA said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bummer you find it disconcerting. Apparently actual owners find these Martin Logan 5.1 speaker packages a continuation of excellence, stinkers doesnt seem to be the consensus. Im sure youll find that exclusive feeling again Jack but I am glad to see Energy has new competition just the same.
> 
> 
> I was afraid that might come off as elitist, but I really tried to explain that for decades Martin Logan meant Electrostatic Speakers. Period. It is not about about exclusivity. To me at least. And more companies than I can count do 5.1 Packages so Energy is but one of a drove of them. All the same, I do regret that my Post was interpreted that way.
> 
> Also, I have linked to the MLT-2 Package countless times due to Newegg selling it for $299 as opposed to the $899 MSRP. There is a reason for it being sold for that little. I would recommend checking out the ML Owners Club as there is barely a mention of the MLT-2.
> 
> 
> 
> No worries here Jack - I took your post to mean you were disappointed that ML's were moving away from what made them unique.
Click to expand...


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## zieglj01

TypeA said:


> Bummer you find it disconcerting. Apparently actual owners find these Martin Logan 5.1 speaker packages a continuation of excellence, stinkers doesnt seem to be the consensus.


Here is an interesting write up >
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1308934&highlight=martin+logan+mlt+2


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## Jungle Jack

To me it is about a Company that was solely devoted to the manufacturing of Electrostatic Speakers from their inception until just before Gayle Sanders sold the Company. I have owned ML's since 1996 and it is just strange to see what they are doing these days. 

This whole thing started with my reply to Tesseract bringing up that the "Motion Transducer" that marketing would suggest to be a major discovery is literally a 30 year old Oskar Heil Design whose Patent expired. That and things like them calling themselves "The Great American Speaker Company" when not a single Speaker is actually Made in America is difficult. Especially as they used to often talk about the Speakers being Built in Kansas replete with passionate Owners making the trek to the Plant followed up by a Demonstration of the $100,000 Statement's at Gayle Sanders Home.

I have nothing more to say about ML. And I regret that this Thread has turned to this discussion and I am certainly culpable in that.


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## tonyvdb

Hey Joe, speaker shopping is alot of fun thats for sure. Some places will let you take them home with a deposit, that could be your best plan of attack.
since I got my EV sentrys Ive been hearing music all over again its so hard to explain but music sounds so rich and I hear things I never heard before


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## ALMFamily

tonyvdb said:


> Hey Joe, speaker shopping is alot of fun thats for sure. Some places will let you take them home with a deposit, that could be your best plan of attack.
> since I got my EV sentrys Ive been hearing music all over again its so hard to explain but music sounds so rich and I hear things I never heard before


That is what I am hoping - once I trim the list down, I won't feel comfortable buying something until I have a chance to listen to it so a good return policy or the ability to take them home is a must.

I have a feeling getting a chance to listen to a set of EV's could be troublesome. :bigsmile:


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## tonyvdb

Ive seen the EVs pop up on eBay from time to time and Craigslist or Kijiji is another option.


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## ALMFamily

Thanks Tony! I will keep my eyes posted. :sneeky:


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## ALMFamily

Attached is my current list to research based on input in this thread as well as other threads. Thanks everyone for your input so far - if anyone has any other suggestions that are not listed, fire away! :gulp:


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## kadijk

I have one song that is an absolute "must" in any speaker audition session, and once you listen to it you'll know why. It has rich midrange, some bass extension, and some high range. In home theater, and music, good clear midrange is critical, and I think this song will demonstrate a speakers ability or lack of it quickly. Get to know Sarah McLachlan's song Angel. Play it soft, play it LOUD. Enjoy and have fun


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## ALMFamily

kadijk said:


> I have one song that is an absolute "must" in any speaker audition session, and once you listen to it you'll know why. It has rich midrange, some bass extension, and some high range. In home theater, and music, good clear midrange is critical, and I think this song will demonstrate a speakers ability or lack of it quickly. Get to know Sarah McLachlan's song Angel. Play it soft, play it LOUD. Enjoy and have fun


I have heard that song many times - I should have thought of it when I was putting my list together. Thanks very much for the suggestion - definitely adding it! I also need to find an instrumental song that has quite a bit of horn section - that is one area my song selection is sadly lacking. Anyone have suggestions for this? 

One question for anyone - I plan to load my audition list to my iPod and take that for speaker auditions. Can I count on the fact that most shops will be able to accomodate hooking it to their set-up?


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## tonyvdb

I highly recommend Lee Ritenours "6 string theory" absolutely the best music CD I have. Lots of variety and really dynamic recording. It won Jazz guitar album of the year last year.


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## ALMFamily

Tony - any track in particular you would suggest?


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## tonyvdb

Honestly, all of them. I love the variety the CD has BB King is featured as well as several other big names. Its got some vocal tracks as well and the recordings is amazing.

Here is a little advertisement of the album


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## TypeA

ALMFamily said:


> One question for anyone - I plan to load my audition list to my iPod and take that for speaker auditions. Can I count on the fact that most shops will be able to accomodate hooking it to their set-up?


Cant really speak to compatibility, probably depends alot on the store, but you will be using apple lossless right? (Just checking)



kadijk said:


> I have one song that is an absolute "must" in any speaker audition session, and once you listen to it you'll know why. It has rich midrange, some bass extension, and some high range. In home theater, and music, good clear midrange is critical, and I think this song will demonstrate a speakers ability or lack of it quickly. Get to know Sarah McLachlan's song Angel. Play it soft, play it LOUD. Enjoy and have fun


Nice suggestion


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## ALMFamily

Fortunately, I have an account with iTunes so I can preview each track - I was just wondering if there was one track you thought stood out more than the others. I do not have a Jazz genre track in my current list and this is a good suggestion for an add.


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## ALMFamily

TypeA said:


> Cant really speak to compatibility but you will be using apple lossless right?


About half will be Loseless - the other half are older MP3 format (ripped from CDs).


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## TypeA

ALMFamily said:


> About half will be Loseless - the other half are older MP3 format (ripped from CDs).



Cool. I suppose seeing how they handle lower quality might not be a bad idea either... Oh if _only_ lossy was a felony.


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## ALMFamily

TypeA said:


> Cool. I suppose seeing how they handle lower quality might not be a bad idea either.


My exact thought! Maybe I am not such a newb after all..............NOT! :rofl2:


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## caper26

FLAC is the way to go. Bring a laptop and send it over Optical. I use FOOBAR2000 to play flac on both my systems.


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## ALMFamily

Caper26 - why FLAC? Is it due to a higher compression rate?

Unfortunately, my laptop does not have an optical connection. :sad:


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## Andre

I like to use Clint Mansell's Lux Aeterna as a test song for Dynamics. I use Pink Floyd's High Hopes for detail (listen for the bee flying around at the very beginning). Female voice - Amanda Marshall Beautiful Goodbye (the last min of the song). Male voice - Queen (freddy) Who wants to live forever.

If I had a tie breaker I would probably listen to Michael Hedges live version Aerial Boundaries


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## ALMFamily

Andre said:


> I like to use Clint Mansell's Lux Aeterna as a test song for Dynamics. I use Pink Floyd's High Hopes for detail (listen for the bee flying around at the very beginning). Female voice - Amanda Marshall Beautiful Goodbye (the last min of the song). Male voice - Queen (freddy) Who wants to live forever.
> 
> If I had a tie breaker I would probably listen to Michael Hedges live version Aerial Boundaries
> Michael Hedges -- Aerial Boundaries - YouTube


Thanks for the suggestions Andre! The Queen song is actually used in one of my favorite movies - Highlander. Might be a good add for higher range male vocals - Freddy can really get up there.

And, is that a cigarette at the end of his guitar?! :rubeyes:


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## Andre

ensence


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## showcattleguy

I highly recommend university audio both Dave gerrard and Ben gottleib were fantastic and the B&W CM9's were the best speakers I have heard under $10,000 (subjective I know) I would give them a shot. That sound is what brings to mind "the way it was meant to be heard" for me. Just my 2 cents.


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## ALMFamily

showcattleguy said:


> I highly recommend university audio both Dave gerrard and Ben gottleib were fantastic and the B&W CM9's were the best speakers I have heard under $10,000 (subjective I know) I would give them a shot. That sound is what brings to mind "the way it was meant to be heard" for me. Just my 2 cents.


Thanks for the reply Show! University Audio is going to be my very 1st stop - I actually stopped in there once with my 2 year old to get a feel for the place and talked to Ben a bit. I plan on doing the Studio 100s, the CM9s, and possibly whatever they are carrying for Marting Logans if I can make it that long. :bigsmile:

And, welcome to HTS! So proud your 1st post was in my thread!!


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## ALMFamily

I have updated the music audition list in post #6 to include some suggested tracks - thanks for the suggestions!

I have drawn up my "Speaker Checklist" that I will be using to evaluate speakers and have attached a copy. I also attached a copy of my updated speaker list. Thanks and keep the suggestions coming folks - great stuff so far!!


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## caper26

ALMFamily said:


> Caper26 - why FLAC? Is it due to a higher compression rate?
> 
> Unfortunately, my laptop does not have an optical connection. :sad:


FLAC is lossless. I bought a USB dongle (external sound card) with 3.5mm AND optical out. [LINK]


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## showcattleguy

University audio I think still has a demo pair of logans originally 5 marked down to 2 don't know what your timeline is but they were still there last week when I was demonstrating a sim2 projector


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## ALMFamily

caper26 said:


> FLAC is lossless. I bought a USB dongle (external sound card) with 3.5mm AND optical out. [LINK]


Thanks for the link Caper26 - more research! :reading:



showcattleguy said:


> University audio I think still has a demo pair of logans originally 5 marked down to 2 don't know what your timeline is but they were still there last week when I was demonstrating a sim2 projector


Thanks for the heads up! I have not started auditioning any speakers as of yet and would probably be doing myself a disservice (and cutting down my fun! :bigsmile if I did not try to hear as much as possible. I will have to try to get there soon though to at least give them a listen.


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## Andre

Hello Joe,

I looked at your eval sheet. It’s a perfect IF you’re listening to the speakers in Your room.

A few thoughts for you:

Quality of low end – below 80hz will be taken by your excellent subs, so not Highly important. Listen for the speed of the kick drum rather then its low end extension.

Width and Depth of Soundstage – I believe this to be much more placement and room dependant. Too help a bit, make sure when auditioning speakers that they are place as close to the same distance apart and distance from the rear wall as they will be in your room. Even then an acoustically treated room will change their character.

Quality and Size of sound outside the “sweet spot”. If you’re listening in stereo this encompasses Soundstage width.

Ability to handle higher volumes – I believe more important is how they handle Dynamic changes to the volume (the soundtrack is initially soft then “something happens” which causes a fast transision to loud). This of course is also dependant on your amp and its headroom, so try to listen to speakers with the same quality of receiver/amplifier.

Ability to “disappear” – Imaging is very dependant on the recording and to a lesser extent placement and room acoustics. “Listen with your eyes” Can you point to the different areas of the “stage” in front of you saying “bassist is here, lead guitar there”.


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## ALMFamily

Andre said:


> Hello Joe,
> 
> I looked at your eval sheet. It’s a perfect IF you’re listening to the speakers in Your room.
> 
> A few thoughts for you:
> 
> Quality of low end – below 80hz will be taken by your excellent subs, so not Highly important. Listen for the speed of the kick drum rather then its low end extension.
> 
> Width and Depth of Soundstage – I believe this to be much more placement and room dependant. Too help a bit, make sure when auditioning speakers that they are place as close to the same distance apart and distance from the rear wall as they will be in your room. Even then an acoustically treated room will change their character.
> 
> Quality and Size of sound outside the “sweet spot”. If you’re listening in stereo this encompasses Soundstage width.
> 
> Ability to handle higher volumes – I believe more important is how they handle Dynamic changes to the volume (the soundtrack is initially soft then “something happens” which causes a fast transision to loud). This of course is also dependant on your amp and its headroom, so try to listen to speakers with the same quality of receiver/amplifier.
> 
> Ability to “disappear” – Imaging is very dependant on the recording and to a lesser extent placement and room acoustics. “Listen with your eyes” Can you point to the different areas of the “stage” in front of you saying “bassist is here, lead guitar there”.


Thanks for the feedback Andre! You are entirely correct - my room will be so vastly different in sound compared to anyplace I audition speakers. That said, I guess what I am thinking is that if I do not like them in an environment that has much less to offer accoustically than my room, I will more than likely not like them in my room either. 

Maybe a good approach might be to toss away the ones I really can't stand, and make an attempt to listen to the remaining ones in my room if at all possible. It will increase the number I have to arrange in home auditions for, but in the end that may not be a bad thing....... :huh:


----------



## Andre

I'd like to have fun with it. Set up a Saturday with a friend, with both of you having two picked songs/soundtracks then go listen to a some cheap Polks or Kilpisch, then go to a shop you can't afford and listen to something like Wilson Audio. If you can't hear the difference, quit and start drinking early. If you can then go up and down both ways until you line blurrs.


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## ALMFamily

Andre said:


> I'd like to have fun with it. Set up a Saturday with a friend, with both of you having two picked songs/soundtracks then go listen to a some cheap Polks or Kilpisch, then go to a shop you can't afford and listen to something like Wilson Audio. If you can't hear the difference, quit and start drinking early. If you can then go up and down both ways until you line blurrs.


Oh, well anything will probably sound like bliss compared to my current Bose Acoustimass 10 system...... :yikes:

As far as speakers, I came across a dealer for these Canton Chrono speakers. I have never heard nor seen Canton speakers before - does anyone have any experience / info on these?


----------



## Andre

Canton is a Germany speaker copy that was popular in the 80s (even Car audio back then), they specialize in Active speakers and use Metal dome tweeters. Some find them "bright"


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks Andre - I saw a vendor within driving distance was an authorized dealer and I had never heard of the speaker.

Here is another - it appears to be a bit older but has anyone listened to a set of the FoCal JM Labs 726s floorstanding speakers? I found a set on Craigslist that I might check into for living room duty to start getting rid of that dreaded Bose mess..........


----------



## tesseract

Andre said:


> Canton is a Germany speaker copy that was popular in the 80s (even Car audio back then), they specialize in Active speakers and use Metal dome tweeters. Some find them "bright"


Metal dome tweeters often get the blame for poor integration or crossover work. Canton makes some good stuff, mostly passive designs. 



ALMFamily said:


> Thanks Andre - I saw a vendor within driving distance was an authorized dealer and I had never heard of the speaker.


By all means, go take a listen. The more speakers you get to hear, the larger your knowledge base becomes.

http://www.canton.de/en-home.htm

Who knows what else you might find at that store, perhaps another brand you didn't know of.


----------



## Andre

Companies change, I remember Canton when they had some really tall active speakers and "awesome for the 80s" rear parcel shelf speakers (looked like what a soundbar looks like now a days). Another very nice speaker from back then that I loved was a Elipson Colonne Design. 

My brother and I went out to listen to speakers for his new system this weekend. We first listened to my Axiom set up then went out. First up was some Focal Chorus 700 system (I found them to bright and the centre made the front sound stage too small). Next up was the Maggies MMG system...wow...night and day, especially dialog and everything to do with the center channel. However, to get them to that point we had to upgrade power and add a more expensive sub (REL T1, however, I am sure SVS will be just as good). Our last stop was a Martin Logan dealer where we listened to the Electromotion ESL. Even though they didn't have them in a home theater environment I found that 2 channel music was by far the nicest with the MLs. We were also told on the quiet that Futureshop in Canada was blowing them out for $1200 a pair. I told my bro that if he could get them at that price they would be my pick, if not I myself couldn't justify the extra cost over the Axiom M80 system since we would have to buy the ML Motif center at full price (according to the fellow at the store the electromtion centre did do the ESLs justice, they had neither to listen too so we had to take his word for it). 

Very last for giggles we sat in the 100K HT room (Runco, Mark Levinson, Wilson audio), for what it costs I didn't see the appeal (they use an Oppo Bluray as their reference). For music however, I did listen to some MBLs being powered by some VTL tube amps...nice, stupid expensive..but nice.


----------



## Oktyabr

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks Andre - I saw a vendor within driving distance was an authorized dealer and I had never heard of the speaker.
> 
> Here is another - it appears to be a bit older but has anyone listened to a set of the FoCal JM Labs 726s floorstanding speakers? I found a set on Craigslist that I might check into for living room duty to start getting rid of that dreaded Bose mess..........


Ooooh.... Don't discount French made Focal! One of the best sounding speakers I've ever heard was a pair of 826v. "Dark Side of the Moon" on about a $10,000 turntable setup never sounded so good this side of first row concert tickets. If you can get a smoking deal on them I'd jump for sure. 

While you are craigslisting you might look for a deal on Vandersteen 2x (c, ci, etc.), maybe some documented Martin Logan and as silly as it sounds, take a listen to the Infinity Primus 36x (365 now?) line, if you can. Many would consider these "cheap" but I'd prefer them over a lot of speakers I've heard (and owned) costing most if not all of your entire budget.

Big box stores can be your friend for 30 day money back guarantee. The more expensive the boutique, the more expensive you have to make your listening room to reproduce the demo. Listening to any speaker in a given room is much more... listening to THE room with a speaker in it. Nothing, and I repeat, nothing, tops an extended demo in YOUR room.

Demo material? Well, you said movies. You have subs covered or I would recommend one of my benchmarks, "U-571", especially the "Depth Charged" scene to test good crossover from mains to subs and the ability of your amps to provide... in YOUR room. I also like the pod race in star wars "The Phantom Menace" for true surround sound staging.

For music I lean hard to Tori Amos "Little Earthquakes" for demo purposes. Although I'm not really a fan of her music it is easily one of the best produced (and mastered) albums in my several hundred CD collection. Chase that with The Who "The Ultimate Collection" or Greatest Hits (also a superb recording). I won't buy a pair of front speakers that can't pass my "Copeland test" in two channel (shut the subs off!). That is to say a high def FLAC of Copland's "Fanfare To The Common Man". Might be difficult to find on short notice though. Youtube is a good a place as any I guess... 




I also like the song "Haitian Fight Song" by Charles Mingus Big Band and since I know it intimately well it gets used a lot in my demos too. If that upright bass and brass isn't live in my living room I move on to some different speakers.


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks for the reply!!

I will check out those tracks - thanks for the suggestions. I have a feeling I have a small hole in my current list as I do not think I have a bass heavy track.

I decided to grab a pair of the Emptek E55Ti speaker that were on clearance for $400 for the pair. They are not going to be my HT speakers in the long run, but at that deep discount I just could not pass them up. They will end up being part of my living room system at some point.

Your speaker suggestions are spot on - I have the FoCals and the Vandersteens on my audition list. Once I trim the list to a few, I definitely will be auditioning them in my room.

Thanks again!


----------



## ALMFamily

*The Journey Begins!!*

I set up a time to go to University Audio to take a listen to Paradigm's Studio 100s tonight. As this will be the first speaker I have sat down for a full audition with, I am quite a twitter! :bigsmile:

I will try to post my impressions in the next couple days. Thanks again to all for your feedback to this point!


----------



## Andre

Hey Joe,

Did you ever look at using an AT screen and putting the speakers behind it.


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## Ikarius

My 2cents- My old system has Vandersteen 2ce's and a VCC-1 center channel. I very recently assembled a new system, consisting of MartinLogan LX-16s for L/R, EM C2 center, and FX surrounds. The ML speakers quite honestly blow away the Vandersteens (which at the time I chose over paradigm), and I spent under $2500 for the 5 ML speakers.

Cheers
Ikarius


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## ALMFamily

Andre said:


> Hey Joe,
> 
> Did you ever look at using an AT screen and putting the speakers behind it.


I never really did Andre due to the size of my room and the desire to put in 2 rows of chairs. Had I gone with the AT screen, I would have put the 1st row of seats in the 6-7' range which I felt was just way too close.



Ikarius said:


> My 2cents- My old system has Vandersteen 2ce's and a VCC-1 center channel. I very recently assembled a new system, consisting of MartinLogan LX-16s for L/R, EM C2 center, and FX surrounds. The ML speakers quite honestly blow away the Vandersteens (which at the time I chose over paradigm), and I spent under $2500 for the 5 ML speakers.
> 
> Cheers
> Ikarius


Ikarius,

Thanks for the feedback! I actually included the ML-16's on my audition list based on your and TypeA's impressions. I don't know if I have a dealer local carrying them to be able to audition them - University Audio has pretty much slimmed their ML offerings to one and it is not the ML-16. The next closest location is a Magnolia that I have not visited yet....... fingers crossed that I can hear a set! :T

Joe


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## Ikarius

Just a quick note- You might want to take a look towards the end of the "Which Speakers to get?" thread. Someone there mentioned GoldenEar Triton speakers, and I took the time to write up a bit of background info on those and the MartinLogan Motion speakers (they use similar tweeters).

Cheers
Ikarius


----------



## ALMFamily

I just checked it out Ikarius - thanks for the heads up! I came across them while I was doing google searches and also liked the reviews I saw.

Fortunately for me, the local audio shop carries these. So, I will be able to listen to the Studio 100's, the CM709's and the Triton II's all at the same location. I did listen to the Studio 100's yesterday for a little while. I plan on going back for a longer period of time so that I can listen to all 3 to try to wrap my head around different "sound" in speakers.

For those near Wisconsin, I highly recommend University Audio - Ben and Dave are both great guys.


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## ALMFamily

I was able to give the Studio 100s a short listen time this past week. I am planning on another trip shortly to spend a bit more time listening to them and then the CM709s. Some initial thoughts:

- They had a nice wide soundstage. The room is about 15'X15'X10' and I moved all around the room and did not feel there was a significant degradation in sound - I even stood behind them and noticed just a slight change. With the layout of my room and the potential to have the mains closer to side walls, I felt this speaker would be able to manage that well (properly treated of course).

- Bass and mids were tight and very clean. I did feel some thump (is this what is referred to as an ability to "dig deep"?) 

- I did feel like the tweeter was a bit "in my face" at first (I think this is what people with more knowledge experience than I call "bright" or "detailed"). As I continued to listen, I began to appreciate the ability to pick out individual sounds (intake of breath, etc.). As this is the 1st speaker I have had a real chance to listen to, I had no real point of reference for that level of detail

- Vocals were incredibly crisp - both the Sara Mclachlan and Queen tracks were a true joy to listen to.

- Aesthetically speaking, a very pleasing speaker. I also like the fact that 2 centers are offered (did not actually listen to them) and one is similar in design / size to the mains but turned 90 degrees.

- I enjoyed listening to the varied orchestral tracks. I felt that I could "see" where each section was actually located - horns came through very well.

All in all, I was pleased with my 1st audition and felt that the Studio 100s would be one of the few I would like to audition in my own room.

On a different note, someone in a different thread linked a deep discount sale to a set of Emp Tek e55ti tower speakers. I had been monitoring Craigslist for a set of towers to replace the Bose Acoustimass 10 system in my living room and go 2 channel. I decided to pull the trigger and grab a set and received them yesterday. I will post pics and an initial review as soon as I get them all set up.


----------



## tonyvdb

You will probably find that the speakers if designed right will have lots of detail and no matter where you have the volume will still be that way without being hard on the ears or tiring.


----------



## caper26

ALMFamily said:


> - Bass and mids were tight and very clean. I did feel some thump (is this what is referred to as an ability to "dig deep"?)


 I think that is "Slam". Digging deep is the ability to play really low notes





> All in all, I was pleased with my 1st audition and felt that the Studio 100s would be one of the few I would like to audition in my own room.


Thats great news!


----------



## TypeA

ALMFamily said:


> On a different note, someone in a different thread linked a deep discount sale to a set of Emp Tek e55ti tower speakers. I had been monitoring Craigslist for a set of towers to replace the Bose Acoustimass 10 system in my living room and go 2 channel. I decided to pull the trigger and grab a set and received them yesterday. I will post pics and an initial review as soon as I get them all set up.


Yeah GranteedEV posted them. Very nice purchase, you got them for a song 



> - I did feel like the tweeter was a bit "in my face" at first (I think this is what people with more knowledge experience than I call "bright" or "detailed").


I think thats called a "forward" speaker.


----------



## rmichnow

ALMFamily,
I'm reading this thread with a lot of interest. I'm in a similar situation as I beginning to plan for my next Home Theater.
I'm planning for a 5.1 system and have approximately the same budget as you, although I will need to upgrade my subwoofer.
My usage of the system is similar to you with a little less music (95% movies, sports, TV and 5% for music)
I'm also operating under the assumption that a great speaker for music will be great for movies.
I know you can't demo all speakers, however, a few brands/names that I did not see on your list and would enjoy to see your opinions are:
- Aperion Verus Towers (ID Retailer)
- JTR Speakers (either Triple 8s or Triple 12s) - Getting rave reviews across forums for playing with movies
- Def. Tech. Mythos ST(S)s and/or BiPolar Speakers (BP8080ST) - Typically easy to demo at box stores such as Best Buy

One question, how to you plan to incorporate the ID brands into your journey (Salk, Ascend, Philharmonic)? Do you plan to arrange trial periods in your home for demo and then ship back the speakers?

I took the course of running out and demoing speakers without much thought to how to compare. I really look forward to your reviews and will follow along. Thanks for what you're doing.
Regards,
Robert


----------



## ALMFamily

rmichnow said:


> ALMFamily,
> I'm reading this thread with a lot of interest. I'm in a similar situation as I beginning to plan for my next Home Theater.
> I'm planning for a 5.1 system and have approximately the same budget as you, although I will need to upgrade my subwoofer.
> My usage of the system is similar to you with a little less music (95% movies, sports, TV and 5% for music)
> I'm also operating under the assumption that a great speaker for music will be great for movies.
> I know you can't demo all speakers, however, a few brands/names that I did not see on your list and would enjoy to see your opinions are:
> - Aperion Verus Towers (ID Retailer)
> - JTR Speakers (either Triple 8s or Triple 12s) - Getting rave reviews across forums for playing with movies
> - Def. Tech. Mythos ST(S)s and/or BiPolar Speakers (BP8080ST) - Typically easy to demo at box stores such as Best Buy
> 
> One question, how to you plan to incorporate the ID brands into your journey (Salk, Ascend, Philharmonic)? Do you plan to arrange trial periods in your home for demo and then ship back the speakers?
> 
> I took the course of running out and demoing speakers without much thought to how to compare. I really look forward to your reviews and will follow along. Thanks for what you're doing.
> Regards,
> Robert


First off Robert - welcome to HTS!! :wave: I found this forum about 4 months ago, and it is my new favorite home. 

Thanks for the suggestions for speakers - I will plan on looking at them in the next couple days to see if I can add them to my list. I have been doing my best to avoid the big box store for listening to a speaker - just so much traffic and whatnot. I have yet to try the Magnolia in the Best Buy about an hour away to see if it is set-up any better - might have to give that a looksy. Fortunately for me, I am located within reasonable driving distance of a few different smaller shops as well.

As far as the ID speakers, I was able to find a group in my area that does periodic GTGs and some of those are being brought to the next one as well as getting a generous offer from another HTS member to come to his home to hear his set-up. For the rest, I will probably pick 1-2 to demo in home and ship back.

I am hoping to get out tomorrow to listen to the CM709 and GoldenEar Triton II - fingers crossed! :bigsmile:


----------



## rmichnow

ALMFamily said:


> First off Robert - welcome to HTS!! :wave: I found this forum about 4 months ago, and it is my new favorite home.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions for speakers - I will plan on looking at them in the next couple days to see if I can add them to my list. I have been doing my best to avoid the big box store for listening to a speaker - just so much traffic and whatnot. I have yet to try the Magnolia in the Best Buy about an hour away to see if it is set-up any better - might have to give that a looksy. Fortunately for me, I am located within reasonable driving distance of a few different smaller shops as well.
> 
> As far as the ID speakers, I was able to find a group in my area that does periodic GTGs and some of those are being brought to the next one as well as getting a generous offer from another HTS member to come to his home to hear his set-up. For the rest, I will probably pick 1-2 to demo in home and ship back.
> 
> I am hoping to get out tomorrow to listen to the CM709 and GoldenEar Triton II - fingers crossed! :bigsmile:


Joe,
Thanks for the welcome. I noticed the SE Wisconsin GTG thread on AVSforum. Wish I could attend, however, way too far for me. I am very interested in your reviews/feedback from the GTG and will follow along. 
Also looking forward to your review of the GE Triton 2. I demoed the Triton 2 at an audio shop in my area. Went in with high exepectations due to all the reviews I read. Walked away somewhat disappointed, however, in fairness I was not assertive in controlling the environment, such as positioning the bass knob/level and moving the speakers off of the front wall. I will give the GE Triton 2 a second listen with thoughts about the listening environment.


----------



## ALMFamily

Just wanted to post initial thoughts on the B-Stock EmpTek Towers:

Here are a couple pictures of the boxes:

Speaker one
Speaker two

As you can see, it looks like both were ripped by a forklift. No damage to the speakers though.

Here is boxes removed. I was a little worried about them when I saw the packaging did not surround the speaker - fortunately, no damage. :T

Speaker one 
Speaker two

The first speaker - the first picture is a "swirly" on top of the speaker. The next two are right next to cover. They look much worse than they really are as the camera really lit them up.

blemish 1
blemish 2
blemish 3

The second speaker just had the swirly on the top.

blemish 1

And, it's current resting place!

Home!

Here are a few pics with the grille off.

Whole speaker
Upper Half
Lower half

As far as the sound, I am currently building my HT room so I have not got much time on them yet. However, I have noticed that it handles bass / mids pretty well (I played a Blue Man group track) - crisp, clear and a bit of slam which actually somewhat surprised me TBH.  I promised the family we would watch a movie tonight so I will give more impressions soon.

Snowing here today so no babysitter service available (aka Grandma :bigsmile so I won't be getting to listen to the CM709 or Tritons today. So all is not lost, I am still going to go there and check out the Oppo players! :T


----------



## ALMFamily

In reading on a different forum, I came across a post from David Fabrikant at Ascend Acoustics explaining how a ribbon tweeter works. I found it very informative so I thought I would post it here:

_A true ribbon tweeter consists of (3) major components. The diaphragm (aluminum with the RAAL’s) the magnets (neodymium) and the transformer.

A true ribbon tweeter is designed such that a very thin conductive material is suspended between extremely powerful magnets. A current is applied directly to the diaphragm itself, thus reacting with the strong magnetic field generated by the magnets resulting in the diaphragm itself moving forward and back generating sound waves.

Unlike a dome or planar magnetic tweeter, a true ribbon does not have a voice coil – thus eliminating a very large amount of moving mass which accounts for the incredible transient accuracy which is clearly audible. Sounds simple, right? The lack of a voice coil creates a problem however....

Since voltage is applied directly across the diaphragm itself (the “ribbon”) and since the ribbon is highly conductive (extremely low resistance), your amplifier is going to see a load that may be as low as 1/10th of an ohm and it is either going to enter protection mode or fail almost instantly. To solve the problem, an impedance matching transformer must be used to keep the amplifier output power (wattage) the same while converting current delivery and, subsequently, voltage to usable levels. 

The transformer design in a true ribbon tweeter is critical to performance as all transformers are subject to various losses, MUCH more so than capacitors, resistors and inductors. Keep in mind that the signal being sent to the ribbon is first traveling through the transformer and being “transformed”… 

I won’t get into complex transformer design but a transformer consists of a core (typically metal) with one set of windings on one side of the core (primary) and another set of windings on the other (secondary). Current flows through the primary windings, creating a magnetic field in the core. This magnetic field then releases into the secondary windings creating a current which is directly proportional to the ratio of the # of windings in the secondary coil compared to the primary, and the process continues generating a "transformed" current flow.

The transformer core material has a significant influence on the performance of the transformer as it is continually subject to magnetic polarization. Ferrite cores are typical and are of very high quality, however, Amorphous metal cores are more efficient and can magnetize and then demagnetize faster and with less losses compared to ferrite cores.

Evidence of this will not show up on frequency domain measurements but are indeed evident in time domain measurements.

I have taken comparative measurements between the AM core units and the ferrite core units and the differences are noticeable. As far as actually hearing a difference between the two, there were times when I thought I heard subtle differences in micro-dynamics and yet other times I could not tell them apart. However, these are with my ears and we all detect sounds differently.

That said, it is in my professional opinion that if going with a RAAL ribbon, the AM core option is much more important to overall performance than choosing exotic crossover capacitors, silver solder, magic stones and various other “audiophile” tweaks. Performance differences are measurable; therefore they can certainly be audible and AM core transformers are the choice when designing a high performance transformer (less losses.) Since many of you are already considering what is, perhaps, the best ribbon tweeter available, it certainly makes sense to go with the higher performance transformer option.

If interested, a simple Google search on Amorphous metal or even Amorphous core transformers will provide more detailed information._


----------



## Nuance

I look forward to having you attend the GTG in April!


----------



## ALMFamily

I am really looking forward to that as well Brandon - it is such a great opportunity to meet people as well as being able to listen to so many great speaker choices. Being able to potentially meet Dennis and Jim are icing on the cake! :T

I just need to make sure I get myself down to University Audio to listen to the other two speakers so I have an more of an inkling of what I really want from a speaker. :bigsmile:


----------



## pxj

I picked up a pair of GoldenEar II's. After the dealer moved them around for me, let me play with the bass and with my music I bought them, of course the speakers had about 150hours on them. So far so good.


----------



## tesseract

pxj said:


> I picked up a pair of GoldenEar II's.


The Triton II or the TritonCinema Two?


----------



## tesseract

ALMFamily, I'd like to share my favorite article about RAAL.

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/roadtourserbia/raal.html


----------



## rmichnow

pxj said:


> I picked up a pair of GoldenEar II's. After the dealer moved them around for me, let me play with the bass and with my music I bought them, of course the speakers had about 150hours on them. So far so good.


pxj, did you also get the Supersat 50c for the center and the Supersats for surrounds? if yes, let us know your impressions of how the Goldenear performs with movies. My concern is the Center speaker and dialogue.


----------



## ALMFamily

pxj said:


> I picked up a pair of GoldenEar II's. After the dealer moved them around for me, let me play with the bass and with my music I bought them, of course the speakers had about 150hours on them. So far so good.


Definitely would love to hear more of your impressions!



tesseract said:


> ALMFamily, I'd like to share my favorite article about RAAL.
> 
> http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/roadtourserbia/raal.html


Thanks for the link - what a great read! Those Eternitys look simply AMAZING. :rubeyes:


----------



## ALMFamily

Just an update - been going gung-ho on the HT room so I have not done any new research in the last couple weeks. Hopefully, I will get a chance to look at the 3 speakers mentioned in a previous post and get to UA in the next few days and keep the journey alive! :T


----------



## ALMFamily

rmichnow said:


> ALMFamily,
> I'm reading this thread with a lot of interest. I'm in a similar situation as I beginning to plan for my next Home Theater.
> I'm planning for a 5.1 system and have approximately the same budget as you, although I will need to upgrade my subwoofer.
> My usage of the system is similar to you with a little less music (95% movies, sports, TV and 5% for music)
> I'm also operating under the assumption that a great speaker for music will be great for movies.
> I know you can't demo all speakers, however, a few brands/names that I did not see on your list and would enjoy to see your opinions are:
> - Aperion Verus Towers (ID Retailer)
> - JTR Speakers (either Triple 8s or Triple 12s) - Getting rave reviews across forums for playing with movies
> - Def. Tech. Mythos ST(S)s and/or BiPolar Speakers (BP8080ST) - Typically easy to demo at box stores such as Best Buy
> 
> One question, how to you plan to incorporate the ID brands into your journey (Salk, Ascend, Philharmonic)? Do you plan to arrange trial periods in your home for demo and then ship back the speakers?
> 
> I took the course of running out and demoing speakers without much thought to how to compare. I really look forward to your reviews and will follow along. Thanks for what you're doing.
> Regards,
> Robert


Robert,

My apologies for not getting to this sooner. Thanks again for your speaker suggestions! As far as the 3 speakers you mentioned:

Aperion Verus - I have several ID brands on my list already and with my ability to attend the GTG in April, I feel that I will be able to get a large sampling of ID speakers there. Also, I am pretty certain that the SVS MTS-02 speakers will be one that I want to audition as I have heard nothing but glowing praise. Long Story short - I can probably only accomodate a few ID brands and probably have that many or more already. :bigsmile:

JTR Speakers - As with the Aperion, these appear to be ID. Also, (and correct me if I am wrong) it appears that these speakers are as sensitive or more sensitive than Klipsch speakers are. I did have the opportunity to get a short listen to the RF-62s and just felt - for lack of a better choice of words - there was too much treble for my tastes. If my understanding is correct, a higher sensitivity speaker is not only easier to drive, they tend to have a higher treble (bright?) sound. I figure if the Klipsch did not appeal, these probably would not either.

Def Tech Mythos - this is the one I want to get out to see and get a quick listen to so I can make a decision whether or not to spend more time with it - I just have not made it to the Magnolia location yet.

I need to update my speaker list as the GTG has a couple speakers I have not included - I will get that update done and re-post the revised list in the next couple days.

Cheers!


----------



## rmichnow

Joe,

Thanks for replying.

I'm following the SE Wisconsin GTG thread on AVSforum and you'll certainly get an opportunity to listen to a lot of great speakers. I'm most interested in your observations of the Ascend Sierra Towers (ribbon tweeter) and the Philharmonics. Understanding that the GTG is a music listening demo and not HT, after the GTG, hopefully, we can connect and you can share your observations.

JTR Speakers - Its another ID brand, however, different than the Klipsch in terms of its compression driver. It is highly sensitive and geared toward HT - loud, dyanmic and clean, even though many owners have stated its also good for music (based on a hi-fi design). The speaker appears to use horn technology, however, many opinions are that horn technology sounds different on different brands and even lines of speakers, as well as, in different listening environments. Many people believe once you get into the higher lines of Klipsch (i.e. Reference), the brightness is no longer there. Also, other speakers that use horns (i.e. BIC as an example) are categorized as being laid back. Per reviews, JTR speakers sound neutral.
If there's one Pro-Audio speaker that you demonstrate for HT, I understand that JTR is the one. People on the forums are going crazy as to how good these speakers are for HT. Of course, comparing JTR to the speakers you'll listen to at the GTG is comparing apples to oranges.

Def. Tech Mythos - I demoed the Mythos STS a few weeks ago. When you make your way to Magnolia let me know your thoughts about the Mythos. My Magnolia only carried the Def. Tech BP line, thus, I found another Box Store to demo the Mythos.
Also, when you're at Magnolia, check out the B&W CM9s and let me know your thoughts.

Thanks for all that you're doing.


----------



## ALMFamily

OK, here is my updated list. Again, I don't know that I will be able to listen to all of these, but I am sure going to try to get as many as I can!

View attachment Audition List.xls


Robert, the Best Buy with a Magnolia in my area also does not have the Mythos - I contected another place to see if they have them - fingers crossed!

Oh, and I do not have to go to Best Buy for the CM709s as the local store has those as well as the Studio 100s and the GoldenEar Triton IIs.


----------



## TypeA

You have some serious speakers on that list, its great you have so many of a reasonable distance to audition. Will be watching the results closely


----------



## showcattleguy

Has anybody recomended Theil yet? They have one in that similar price range. It's though to exclude them they sound fantastic and look good too. They were on my list but the CM9's won as they were a little more mellow but the Theil still sounded great albeit a different sound.


----------



## ALMFamily

showcattleguy said:


> Has anybody recomended Theil yet? They have one in that similar price range. It's though to exclude them they sound fantastic and look good too. They were on my list but the CM9's won as they were a little more mellow but the Theil still sounded great albeit a different sound.


I have read a few posts from JJ where he was very supportive of the Thiels - so I do indeed have the Thiel CS2.4 on my potential list.


----------



## GranteedEV

It would be awesome if you could take your EMPs to that GTG so Nuance et al can tear them apart (verbially) :devil:

I do prefer the e55tis over the Paradigms that you auditioned... what are your thoughts?

Anyways a few speakers to check out.. (er... buying... _*>_>;*_) would be 

- Philharmonic Audio 2
- Audio Artistry CBT36 (Assembly required)
- JBL LSR 6332
- Soundfield Audio 1812
- Pioneer S1-EX
- Gedlee Abbey
- Audiokinesis Planetarium



> JTR Speakers - As with the Aperion, these appear to be ID. Also, (and correct me if I am wrong) it appears that these speakers are as sensitive or more sensitive than Klipsch speakers are. I did have the opportunity to get a short listen to the RF-62s and just felt - for lack of a better choice of words - there was too much treble for my tastes. If my understanding is correct, a higher sensitivity speaker is not only easier to drive, they tend to have a higher treble (bright?) sound. I figure if the Klipsch did not appeal, these probably would not either.


 Sensitivity is mostly independant of tonality/voicing (although a lot of horn speakers do trade tonal accuracy for loudness). You can electrically change the tonal balance of any speaker through its crossover (although you can't change everything about it). 

I'm not a fan of Klipsch speakers, either for what it's worth. There aren't a lot of high sensitvity speakers that do appeal to me, but that's not because they are high sensitvity, but because of other design aspects. A few that I listed above are however, high sensitivity.


----------



## Ikarius

I just got an opportunity to look through your audition list.

Personally I'd take the Vandersteen off your list. I had vandersteen before I bought my MartinLogans, and the MartinLogans are hands down better speakers. Also, I didn't have excel handy, so I loaded the document up to Google docs. If you actually use the google doc, we can see your progress without you having to do anything....

Link: HERE 

Umm, other than that, after looking at that list, there are several speakers where I'm not certain if there are good center/surround options (if your room is relatively optimal and you go bookshelf, you could go the same speakers all around except center channel, but if you're going w/ towers, you're unlikely to use the same speakers for surrounds. If I were you, I'd take a look at the list of speakers and try to discern what you'd do for the other 5 channels, and if you're not satisfied with how the pairings look, take em off your list. Might help you a bit 


Cheers
Ikarius


----------



## ALMFamily

GranteedEV said:


> It would be awesome if you could take your EMPs to that GTG so Nuance et al can tear them apart (verbially) :devil:
> 
> I do prefer the e55tis over the Paradigms that you auditioned... what are your thoughts?
> 
> Anyways a few speakers to check out.. (er... buying... _*>_>;*_) would be
> 
> - Philharmonic Audio 2
> - Audio Artistry CBT36 (Assembly required)
> - JBL LSR 6332
> - Soundfield Audio 1812
> - Pioneer S1-EX
> - Gedlee Abbey
> - Audiokinesis Planetarium
> 
> 
> 
> Sensitivity is mostly independant of tonality/voicing (although a lot of horn speakers do trade tonal accuracy for loudness). You can electrically change the tonal balance of any speaker through its crossover (although you can't change everything about it).
> 
> I'm not a fan of Klipsch speakers, either for what it's worth. There aren't a lot of high sensitvity speakers that do appeal to me, but that's not because they are high sensitvity, but because of other design aspects. A few that I listed above are however, high sensitivity.


Thanks for the speaker suggestions! I will do my best to get a bit of research in on them for potentially adding them to my list. Seeing as how this is my 1st opportunity to meet Nuance and the rest, I will more than likely NOT take anything along. :bigsmile:

As far as my impressions, I have not had much time on the EmpTeks yet - about 4 hours max and none of that was listening to my audition tracks. I have been spending every free moment I have working in the HT space. :whistling: I will make an attempt to do that this week and give my impressions. One thing I can say - they don't seem as hmmmm... detailed? With the Studios, I felt I heard everything - good and bad (used my ipod and was getting some static) - I don't get that feeling with the EmpTeks.



Ikarius said:


> I just got an opportunity to look through your audition list.
> 
> Personally I'd take the Vandersteen off your list. I had vandersteen before I bought my MartinLogans, and the MartinLogans are hands down better speakers. Also, I didn't have excel handy, so I loaded the document up to Google docs. If you actually use the google doc, we can see your progress without you having to do anything....
> 
> Link: HERE
> 
> Umm, other than that, after looking at that list, there are several speakers where I'm not certain if there are good center/surround options (if your room is relatively optimal and you go bookshelf, you could go the same speakers all around except center channel, but if you're going w/ towers, you're unlikely to use the same speakers for surrounds. If I were you, I'd take a look at the list of speakers and try to discern what you'd do for the other 5 channels, and if you're not satisfied with how the pairings look, take em off your list. Might help you a bit
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Ikarius


Thanks for the opinion on the Vanderstein - I guess I am thinking I will try to listen to as much as I possibly can. But, based on that input, I will not go out of my way to make sure I include it. 

That is a really good suggestion - I will go back through the list and pair it down. Better yet - I will go back through the list and update the google doc (Thanks for posting the google doc - I will try to remember to do all my updates there. :bigsmile to indicate why I will not be auditioning that particular speaker.


----------



## GranteedEV

ALMFamily said:


> One thing I can say - they don't seem as hmmmm... detailed? With the Studios, I felt I heard everything - good and bad (used my ipod and was getting some static) - I don't get that feeling with the EmpTeks.


They're not the most resolving speaker in the world. One thing to remember however is that sometimes what extra you're hearing, is not part of the recording, but is being added by the speaker. "Detail" and "resolution" are not necessarily the same thing. Sometimes speakers will trade balanced tonality for "Showroom Sizzle (and Boom)" (it sells). At times, you can bring speakers that impressed you in the showroom home, and find them fatiguing and sibilant. Sometimes it's the speaker that seems to do the least, that is actually the most honest. And sometimes the speaker does so little that it's removing from the recording. Striking that balance of accurate reproduction is tricky to say the least. Add in the speaker's interaction with the room, and things can get kind of convoluted.

All-in-all just live with them for a while and see what you think. Try not to get too caught up in listening to the speaker... just listen to the recordings(music/movies). if the speaker is doing something wrong, you'll hear it and recognize it subconciously. Soon enough you'll probably get a chance to audition Warpdrv's Salk Soundscape Monitor 7s. You'll find that they too have a relaxed tonality to them, but don't sacrifice even a smidgen of Accuracy to the original recording. If the recording has detail to be extracted, it will be, but nothing false will try to grab your ear.

As for Vandersteen vs Martin Logan, I've never heard Vandersteens but I've only heard excellent things about them.


----------



## tesseract

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks for the opinion on the Vanderstein - I guess I am thinking I will try to listen to as much as I possibly can. But, based on that input, I will not go out of my way to make sure I include it.


I wouldn't recommend crossing Vandersteen off the list. They make some of the very best cone & dome speakers for the money. I cannot think of a loudspeaker that has been around as long or has been as successful as the 2C series. You absolutely should go out of your way to hear Vandy's!


----------



## tesseract

GranteedEV said:


> They're not the most resolving speaker in the world. One thing to remember however is that sometimes what extra you're hearing, is not part of the recording, but is being added by the speaker. "Detail" and "resolution" are not necessarily the same thing. Sometimes speakers will trade balanced tonality for "Showroom Sizzle (and Boom)" (it sells).


Agree 100% 

I just went from the B&W 602S3 (possibly the best bang for buck speaker B&W ever made) to the Chase SHO-10. The SHO-10 does not have that extra bit of sparkle at the top the the 602S3 Nautilus tweeter has. My brother, who bought my 602s noticed this as well, and commented that the SHOs didn't reach as high. I asked him to think about this, as what he found missing might not actually be something that is supposed to be there.

Perhaps the SHO is more accurately reproducing the highs? Everything else about them slays the 602s. To be honest, I do prefer that last little bit of air at the top, but I cannot say for sure that it belongs there. :dontknow:

For the record, many speakers have this zing at the top, not just the 602S3.


----------



## GranteedEV

tesseract said:


> Agree 100%
> 
> I just went from the B&W 602S3 (possibly the best bang for buck speaker B&W ever made) to the Chase SHO-10. The SHO-10 does not have that extra bit of sparkle at the top the the 602S3 Nautilus tweeter has. My brother, who bought my 602s noticed this as well, and commented that the SHOs didn't reach as high. I asked him to think about this, as what he found missing might not actually be something that is supposed to be there.
> 
> Perhaps the SHO is more accurately reproducing the highs? Everything else about them slays the 602s. To be honest, I do prefer that last little bit of air at the top, but I cannot say for sure that it belongs there. :dontknow:
> 
> For the record, many speakers have this zing at the top, not just the 602S3.


How dead is your room? You might be able to get that air back just by livening it up a bit. 

Tough to say what's more _accurate_ on the upper treble. Accurate on midrange, lower treble, midbass, a lot easier. Upper treble is confusing. I don't think there's a right or wrong below 30hz and above around 8khz. In a sense we should just start with speakers that do everything else well, and then once it's narrowed down we can decide how we like our top and bottom octaves


----------



## tesseract

I definitely have 30-8k Hz where I want it, and that is great advice, EV. Constant directivity from 1600 Hz on up really helps in my difficult room.

The room is quite lively, flutter echo is a problem that I manage with light treatments. Maybe I just need to add more bass. :bigsmile:


----------



## ALMFamily

You guys do realize that if you keep this up, I will be auditioning speakers long after I finish the HT room! :rofl2:

Seriously though, thanks for the discussion. I am going to try to hit every speaker on the list as far as research goes. Per Ikarius' advice though, I may start tagging some speakers as ones that I will not audition live based upon what the matching speakers offer. Also, I will probably not be able to do all the ID ones unless I can find members who have them and are willing to put up with a traveling noob. :R

Perhaps I missed it - does anyone know the details of the Chase GTG for April 20-21? I normally try to read every thread, but I may have missed one discussing it.


----------



## tesseract

From the HTS thread:


craigsub said:


> We are going to have a GTG at our place on April 20-21. We should have 6 different subwoofer models plus our two speakers there.


And the manufacturer forum/thread:
http://www.chasehometheater.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4890


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I will again say that I adore Thiels and the best ever 2 Channel SQ I ever had in one of my Systems was when I had a pair of CS 1.5's connected to a Nakamichi AV-10 around a decade ago when living in Charleston, SC.

My short list of next Speaker Brands is Thiel, Focal, Dynaudio, and Wilson Audio. I am thinking within the year, I am going to put together a 5.2 HT from one of these companies. Even with getting a decent return from selling my Martin Logans, this is going to practically bankrupt me. Especially if I go Wilson.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Ikarius

On Vandersteen; I owned Vandersteen 2CEs before building a new sound system starting with MartinLogan Motion LX16s. I owned them for over a decade, and was very happy with them. Their tone is warm and engaging, and they present a terrific soundstage. However, they still need a subwoofer to fill out the bottom end, they are absolutely less detailed & articulate in the high end than the MartinLogans- AND they cost more than twice as much as the LX16s. 

A decade ago, I agree, the Vandersteens were some of the finest speakers to be had for the money. However, in the last decade, neither Vandersteen's lineup nor their pricing has changed while other manufacturers have improved substantially and prices have come down.


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Another worthwhile company is Magneplanar. My brother used to own 3.6's and they sounded fantastic. He ended up selling them to get Focal 1038be's, but his HT is Martin Logan Ascent i's (Front/Surround), Theater i and Descent i so it made sense to me to go with something like the Focals. Also, Maggies have some of the best resale values of any Speakers out there.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## OZZIERP

If available try and give the KEF's an audition I own Paradigm Studio 100's and I am happy with them but one of our clients just purchased some KEF's 205 I believe and they were impressive.


----------



## ALMFamily

tesseract said:


> From the HTS thread:
> 
> 
> And the manufacturer forum/thread:
> http://www.chasehometheater.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4890


Thanks Tesseract - I did not know they had a link to it on their forums. I think I may just make the drive if they have room!



Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I will again say that I adore Thiels and the best ever 2 Channel SQ I ever had in one of my Systems was when I had a pair of CS 1.5's connected to a Nakamichi AV-10 around a decade ago when living in Charleston, SC.
> 
> My short list of next Speaker Brands is Thiel, Focal, Dynaudio, and Wilson Audio. I am thinking within the year, I am going to put together a 5.2 HT from one of these companies. Even with getting a decent return from selling my Martin Logans, this is going to practically bankrupt me. Especially if I go Wilson.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Thanks JJ - I do have the Thiel 2.4, Focal 836, and the Dynaudio XT36 on my current list based upon your earlier suggestions. It might be fun to give a listen to the Wilson Audios - but the good lord knows I won't make enough in my lifetime to get them. 



Ikarius said:


> On Vandersteen; I owned Vandersteen 2CEs before building a new sound system starting with MartinLogan Motion LX16s. I owned them for over a decade, and was very happy with them. Their tone is warm and engaging, and they present a terrific soundstage. However, they still need a subwoofer to fill out the bottom end, they are absolutely less detailed & articulate in the high end than the MartinLogans- AND they cost more than twice as much as the LX16s.
> 
> A decade ago, I agree, the Vandersteens were some of the finest speakers to be had for the money. However, in the last decade, neither Vandersteen's lineup nor their pricing has changed while other manufacturers have improved substantially and prices have come down.


Point taken - fortunately, I have the PB-13 Ultras on sub duty. :hsd: 



Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Another worthwhile company is Magneplanar. My brother used to own 3.6's and they sounded fantastic. He ended up selling them to get Focal 1038be's, but his HT is Martin Logan Ascent i's (Front/Surround), Theater i and Descent i so it made sense to me to go with something like the Focals. Also, Maggies have some of the best resale values of any Speakers out there.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Are Maggies electrostatic? I seem to recall there being something different about them......



OZZIERP said:


> If available try and give the KEF's an audition I own Paradigm Studio 100's and I am happy with them but one of our clients just purchased some KEF's 205 I believe and they were impressive.


Added the KEF R900 speakers to the list.

Per a very good suggestion, here is a link to the audition list.

Google Doc Audition List


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Maggies are Planar Speakers and use a true Ribbon or quasi Ribbon on the less expensive Models. Very difficult to drive, but do not need to be plugged into a Wall Socket like ESL Speakers.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## JoeESP9

tesseract said:


> Agree 100%
> 
> For the record, many speakers have this zing at the top, not just the 602S3.


I totally agree with you on the zing. I've always called that sound the "hi-fi" sound. It doesn't sound real. It sounds like way too much "hi" to be real. Unfortunately many speakers with "clean clear" highs are popular. They make me want to cut off my ears and run away. I don't understand why so many want those icepick highs.

JJ:
Maggies are not difficult to drive. They have a very benign and relatively flat 4 Ohm load. They do like lots of current. Liking lots of current doesn't make them a difficult load just a hungry one..


----------



## Jungle Jack

JoeESP9 said:


> I totally agree with you on the zing. I've always called that sound the "hi-fi" sound. It doesn't sound real. It sounds like way too much "hi" to be real. Unfortunately many speakers with "clean clear" highs are popular. They make me want to cut off my ears and run away. I don't understand why so many want those icepick highs.
> 
> JJ:
> Maggies are not difficult to drive. They have a very benign and relatively flat 4 Ohm load. They do like lots of current. Liking lots of current doesn't make them a difficult load just a hungry one..


From the 3.6 Stereophile Review "The Magnepan's estimated voltage sensitivity was on the low side, at 83.5dB(B)/2.83V/m. However, in a typical room the speaker's quasi-line-source vertical dispersion should make it sound a little louder than might otherwise be expected. (The in-room loudness of a true line source falls off in a linear manner with distance, rather than as the square of the distance, as is the case with a point source.) But it should be noted that BD did need a good beefy amplifier to drive the Maggies to useful levels.

The speaker's impedance (fig.1) approximates a resistive load of around 4 ohms over much of the audioband. However, there is a slight magnitude peak centered at 1.6kHz, due to the crossover between the ribbon and the midrange diaphragm. The minimum value is 3.3 ohms at 10kHz, which is not going to be problem for any good amplifier to drive, while the increasingly positive electrical phase angle at the top of the audioband is, I assume, due to the residual inductance of the ribbon driver. There is a small wrinkle in the trace between 50Hz and 60Hz, which is probably due to the tuning of the woofer diaphragm."

I suppose we all have different criteria for what is a difficult to drive Speaker, but an 83db Efficient, sub 4 Ohm is an awfully difficult load in my book. And if you read the 1.6 Review. even though it is a Quasi Ribbon, it is still highly inefficient and a fairly low impedance.
J


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks JJ - is there a model of the Maggies you would suggest? The 3.7 and 20.7 are more than likely out of my price range for now as this is my first attempt at an HT, and I am thinking I should have the room going for a while before I consider spending that much for speakers - oh, and my wife would probably slay me with the daggers her eyes would shoot out. :scared:


----------



## Jungle Jack

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks JJ - is there a model of the Maggies you would suggest? The 3.7 and 20.7 are more than likely out of my price range for now as this is my first attempt at an HT, and I am thinking I should have the room going for a while before I consider spending that much for speakers - oh, and my wife would probably slay me with the daggers her eyes would shoot out. :scared:


Hello,
The 1.7 has gotten fantastic Reviews. While not a true Ribbon like the 3.6 and 20.7, the Quasi Ribbon is still excellent. If open to used, the 1.6 can be had for less, but they tend to sell on Audiogon about as soon as they are listed. My brother sold his 3.6's in 30 Minutes to a local buyer no less. Maggies really have the best Resale Value of any Speaker I have come across.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## ALMFamily

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> The 1.7 has gotten fantastic Reviews. While not a true Ribbon like the 3.6 and 20.7, the Quasi Ribbon is still excellent. If open to used, the 1.6 can be had for less, but they tend to sell on Audiogon about as soon as they are listed. My brother sold his 3.6's in 30 Minutes to a local buyer no less. Maggies really have the best Resale Value of any Speaker I have come across.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Thanks JJ - after a quick check at Audiogon, it looks like the 1.7 (new) and the 3.6 (used) would fall into my price range. Added to my list - cheers!


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Provided you have or can get a solid Power Amplifier, I can definitely vouch for the 3.6's. They are outstanding. The 1.7's have garnered rave reviews as well, but I would definitely go for the true Ribbon in the 3.6.
J


----------



## ALMFamily

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Provided you have or can get a solid Power Amplifier, I can definitely vouch for the 3.6's. They are outstanding. The 1.7's have garnered rave reviews as well, but I would definitely go for the true Ribbon in the 3.6.
> J


Jack,

I do currently have 2 amps - a UPA-2 and an XPA-5. My plan was to use the XPA-5 to drive the L/C/R and the side surrounds and the 809 would drive the rears - the UPA-2 would be doing zone 2 duty.

Would the XPA-5 be ample enough to drive the 3.6?

Thanks for all the input!

Joe


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
The XPA-5 should be fine. While I think the XPA-1 or XPA-2 would be better, I do think the XPA-5 will get the job done.
J


----------



## showcattleguy

Go to American TV and listen to the new LSI-M u will be blown away and they don't look half bad either


----------



## ALMFamily

You know Show - it really is quite surprising that I have no Polk speakers on that list........

Added the Polk LSiM707s - cheers mate!


----------



## showcattleguy

I was a little embarrassed to admit to my wife we were going to listen to Polk speakers but they went toe to toe with the CM9's as far as I am concerned


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello.
Polk's upper range still use the Ring Radiator Tweeter from Vifa that is also used in many ultra expensive Speakers so I can understand why anyone would be impressed with them. We really try not to be speaker snobs here and have recommended Polks many times.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## showcattleguy

I'm not a speaker snob... My wife is. Her 2ch setup is a pair of 802D's which she had to have after she bought a pair of Focal 1038BE. She was pretty humbled by the quality of sound coming out of the $3000 polks. I was also impressed as they did not have that Polk sound if you know what I mean. I think their Rti line sounded soggy (my wife calls it forgiving). The LSI-M sounded more like a B&W CM9 than a Polk-very detailed and easy to listen to and enough bass extension to make u walk over to the subs and feel for which one is on. Just thought I would explain my post as I don't want to labled a speaker snob.


----------



## GranteedEV

I for one, _am_ a speaker snob. :innocent: I think those B&W CM9s are not speakers I would be interested in...










So for Polks to outperform them, isn't particularily exciting. 

*runs away*


----------



## ALMFamily

showcattleguy said:


> I'm not a speaker snob... My wife is. Her 2ch setup is a pair of 802D's which she had to have after she bought a pair of Focal 1038BE. She was pretty humbled by the quality of sound coming out of the $3000 polks. I was also impressed as they did not have that Polk sound if you know what I mean. I think their Rti line sounded soggy (my wife calls it forgiving). The LSI-M sounded more like a B&W CM9 than a Polk-very detailed and easy to listen to and enough bass extension to make u walk over to the subs and feel for which one is on. Just thought I would explain my post as I don't want to labled a speaker snob.


No worries here Show - I must admit I did not spend a lot of time looking at Polks because of some of the comments I saw - glad you pointed those out and I will definitely plan on including them in my initial research on all speakers on my list.



GranteedEV said:


> I for one, _am_ a speaker snob. :innocent: I think those B&W CM9s are not speakers I would be interested in...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So for Polks to outperform them, isn't particularily exciting.
> 
> *runs away*


Snob alert - snob alert! :bigsmile: I am not sure what I am looking at there - I readily admit my chart reading is severely lacking (which I hope to remedy someday....). Mind explaining just a tad please? :huh:


----------



## GranteedEV

What that is, is a very smoothed frequency response graph; here is the accompanying info:



Thomas J Norton said:


> This graph shows the quasi-anechoic (employing close-miking of all woofers) frequency response of the CM9 L/R (purple trace), ASW 10CM subwoofer (blue trace), CM Centre 2 center channel (green trace), and CM5 surround (red trace). All passive loudspeakers were measured with grilles at a distance of 1 meter with a 2.83-volt input and scaled for display purposes.


Because of the smoothing used, it's not the most useful FR plot in the world overall - but it does tell me these speakers recess the upper mids and highs pretty notably. Now designers have reasons for doing things like this, which can vary from trying to hide speaker design issues to trying to sell speakers on the showroom floor. 

However It's my opinion, that a speaker can 

A)"seemingly measure well and sound inaccurate"
B)"measure well and sound accurate"
C)"_seemingly_ measure poor and occasionally sound accurate enough"
D) "measure poor and sound inaccurate".

For reference, here is a(n unsmoothed in-room) graph of the EMP e55Tis that you picked up:










Now again, there's issues with in-room measurements, including that dip near 200hz caused by floor cancellations. The peaks at 650hz and 1300hz are tough to accurately judge for the same reason. 

Ignoring that, you can see that these speakers have more balance in their voicing... they're _very_ close to +/-2db frequency response and no region is prominent over another in a general sense. Also included are some off-axis plots at 15 and 30 degrees which closely track the on-axis plots (not always the case), although I prefer to have 45, 60, and ~70 degree off-axis plots as well because they will show a bit more of how the speaker plays with (or against) the room.

Of course auditions are important but there's some speakers I really wouldn't bother auditioning because they lack accuracy, even if people consider them pleasant. To me, a pleasant-but-inaccurate speaker lacks fidelity to the source (music..movies) and that's not acceptable. Call me a speaker snob if you like, and I'm not trying insult anyone else's choices, but speakers should be true-to-the-source, not true-to-the-person-buying's-feelings-of-what-they-want-the-source-to-be-like-even-if-that-sounds-nothing-like-the-source-but-at-least-it's-not-harsh.


----------



## ALMFamily

OK, this onder: is starting to happen! So, if I am reading the chart for the CM9 correctly, there is a +/- 6db in the L/R - correct?


----------



## GranteedEV

ALMFamily said:


> OK, this onder: is starting to happen! So, if I am reading the chart for the CM9 correctly, there is a +/- 6db in the L/R - correct?


No, it seems to go from 87db to 93db between around 55hz to 20khz...technically, it's +/- 3db (6db window) which is good enough to put on a spec sheet but not really good enough by my standards.

The problem is, these are VERY broad trends, not a tiny, quick dip here or there. If something spans 1/12th of an octave, it might be barely audible. If we're talking 1/3rd of an octave dips and peaks, they're normally recognizable too. Between the critical 100hz to 8khz range there's an ~6db dip that spans over _two_ full octaves. I don't know _why_ this was done (probably a mix of flawed off-axis response from the 4khz crossover to the tweeter and the tweeter's aluminum dome might have some audibly harsh ringing, and the desire to have a pleasing, "full-bodied/warm" sound character in the showrooms). I just know I have better things to do than audition that speaker.

I _don't_ mean to discredit Polk, but a decently balanced, decently designed speaker really _should_ outperform those CM9s. I've never really been impressed by what i've heard from Polk, but i'm not surprised at showcattleguy's experience.


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
When speaking of being a snob, I mean in terms of Brands. That is if Bose were ever to make a speaker faithful to the source material, I would support it. Unfortunately, this can cut both ways with brands like B&W and MartinLogan selling Speakers that are not faithful to the source, but due to their history and achievements getting the benefit of the doubt with more budget Models. The B&W Nautilus 801 is a classic and is a reference for many world famous Mastering Houses and Studios. And this is just two brands of many who do so. All the while it is possible to purchase more accurate and capable speakers than the CM Series or the ML Electromotion Series for the same money and for often less.

The Vifa Ring Radiator is an excellent Tweeter and I was honestly shocked when Polk started to offer it. It is quite expensive and in other applications I have listened to it in, truly excellent. Unless talking about cost no object Flagships, there are always going to be tradeoffs in Cabinet Construction, Driver Quality, Crossover Networks, and so forth. People like PSB Founder Paul Barton to me is one of the finest in mastering this balancing act. The work being done by Floyd Toole and others at Harman International is also quite noteworthy.
J


----------



## showcattleguy

Could I get a few examples of more accurate speakers than the CM9's with an msrp under $3000 so I can add them to my list of speakers I would like to audition please


----------



## Oktyabr

showcattleguy said:


> Could I get a few examples of more accurate speakers than the CM9's with an msrp under $3000 so I can add them to my list of speakers I would like to audition please


Personally I really like Focal. Polk is good too but I prefer the vintage (SDA/SRS stuff) over most of their current offerings but I digress... if you had said you were interested in saving money on buying 2nd hand I'd definitely recommend some larger Snell too or used Aerial Acoustics but even used these might be pushing your $3000 price point. Vandersteen would also be on my list if I were shopping. Linn Majik is a good line and I'd say audition some lower end Dali too if you have a dealer nearby...

But as for "accurate" you can buy speakers on published graphs or do what normal people do... go listen to them! 

Just remember, listening to a speaker in a dealer's demo room is actually listening to _the demo room with a speaker in it._ Plan on hauling your favorite picks home with you for a few days.


----------



## showcattleguy

I'm not such a fan of focal I didn't think the 1038BE that my wife bought sounded all that great especially for an over $10000 pair of speakers especially when compared the the 802D's we have now . I have to do some research on the other brands you mentioned but I have auditioned Wharfedale jade 7, ML theos, golden ear triton 2, Theil 2.X (not sure the exact number), Polk LSI-M, Def Tech ST, B&W CM9, paradigm studio 100, focal 836W (I think), triad in-walls again not sure the specific one but I have emailed the installer to find out, and Aperion grand towers... all in my room except the inwalls of course and the B&W sounded best to my ear. Just my own experience but again I will see what I can do to audition the others that you mentioned. Thanks for the recomendatons I always look forward to auditioning new speakers.


----------



## GranteedEV

showcattleguy said:


> Could I get a few examples of more accurate speakers than the CM9's with an msrp under $3000 so I can add them to my list of speakers I would like to audition please


To name a few that shoud be worth under 3K MSRP I'd certainly suggest auditioning:

JBL LSR especially 6332 (not to be confused with other JBL speakers found in big box stores)
Revel F12
Pioneer S4-EX
Genelec 8040A
KEF Q900 (Measurements. doshow that the treble might be a bit rough so you'd have to verify with your ears.. the R series speakers are on another level though)
ACA Trinity
RBH 1044-SE
PSB Imagine T
Procella P8
German Maestro HD-PF 200

Remember, being reasonably accurate doesn't mean in your room they will sound identical or be capable of the same SPLs or have the same resolution or throw the same soundstage. It does however mean grave issues are rather unlikely. Being accurate doesn't guaruntee you'll be immediately impressed by them in a showroom audition either, next to a lesser speaker with deeper bass or more treble or even preferred aesthetics. 

Besides brick and mortar stuff, here's the Internet Direct speakers I'd love:

Philharmonic Audio
Salk Supercharged Songtowers (Okay, MSRP is $3300... Songtowers are around $1800 though)
Vapor Audio Aurora
Soundfield Audio Monitor 1
Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower

DIY Kits

AudioArtistry CBT36 kit (prefab is $8500)
JohnK's Nao Note
Dennis Murphy's ER18MTM 
Zaph's ZA5.5TT
Jeff Bagby's Mandolin
Redwoods (crossover by Paul Carmody)
GR Research N3


----------



## Oktyabr

showcattleguy said:


> I'm not such a fan of focal I didn't think the 1038BE that my wife bought sounded all that great especially for an over $10000 pair of speakers especially when compared the the 802D's we have now . I have to do some research on the other brands you mentioned but I have auditioned Wharfedale jade 7, ML theos, golden ear triton 2, Theil 2.X (not sure the exact number), Polk LSI-M, Def Tech ST, B&W CM9, paradigm studio 100, focal 836W (I think), triad in-walls again not sure the specific one but I have emailed the installer to find out, and Aperion grand towers... all in my room except the inwalls of course and the B&W sounded best to my ear. Just my own experience but again I will see what I can do to audition the others that you mentioned. Thanks for the recomendatons I always look forward to auditioning new speakers.


Most of my Focal experience has been older models, the Chorus 826v for example is one of those speakers I wish I had in my living room right now. Wharfedale hasn't impressed me since their factory burned down something like 30 years ago and they basically started over from scratch. I've never been impressed by Def Tech and I've owned quite a bit of it... just long enough to resell or throw away, in the case of stuff that broke. 802's are a good series for sure, I think superior for stereo in most rooms to the CM. Theil 2 series are ok but strangely make me want to hear a similar KEF for some reason. ML is love it or leave it. Like Maggies they just don't do it for me, but that's _me_. Aperion *should* be very good for the price range. I haven't heard the grand towers but have some of their smaller stuff. Well built, good sound, a lot of speaker for the money... Curiously, where did you hear them? I thought they only sold direct? You might not like Dali, I think they are similar to Focal in the same size brackets anyway, but I've enjoyed what I've heard.

Vandersteen is a love it or leave it too. Again, extremely good value with a fantastic sound, when placed and powered properly. They are one of the most finicky to place speakers I've ever played with and they are specifically designed for bi-amp/bi-wire for a reason. And Snell... one of my favorite speaker companies of all time, at least before they got bought out. Aerial Acoustics 10T might be difficult to squeeze under your $3000 mark, even used, but it's one of the speakers I am always on a look out for a sweet deal on... like drive 1000 miles to save $1000 on kind of sweet deal... they are THAT good, IMHO.


----------



## showcattleguy

I bought the Aperion grands and then sent them back under their return policy. It only cost me $125 or something like that for return shipping I thought they sounded very good but left something to be desired on lower frequencies esp The lion king with James earl Jones (his voice sounded off) and thunder effects in different movies and songs just didn't seem "real" to me but otherwise a very good speaker and one that looks sharp. $3000 isn't a set in stone budget either I just didn't want to get carried away like my significant other did. I was also looking for something that could be powered (for now) with a stout receiver until I get my separate amp squared away. I will have to look and see if aeriel has a dealer near me as I see people going on and on about the 20T


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## Oktyabr

Thanks for the short insight into the Aperion grand. It sure looks good! Oh, and the Aerials? You probably want to shop for the 10T (or smaller)... the 20T starts around $25,000.


----------



## showcattleguy

I doubt that would stop my wife as bad as it sounds. I really don't mean to pick on her but the longer I know her the more expensive her tastes seem to get.


----------



## caper26

Energy RC70s are on for 400 each, and retailed almost 3K for a pair. Worth investigation. You don't need to spend 3K if you dont have to, to get the same quality.


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## tesseract

showcattleguy said:


> I doubt that would stop my wife as bad as it sounds. I really don't mean to pick on her but the longer I know her the more expensive her tastes seem to get.


If her tastes lead you to the Aerial Acoustics 20T, you would be doing well. That is my favorite speaker, it's reputation is well deserved.

Might want to check out the ERA 14, Michael Kelly (Aerial) designed the drivers. The crossover spent a year in development.
http://signalpathint.com/index.php/Design-14-Series/


----------



## Jungle Jack

Oktyabr said:


> Most of my Focal experience has been older models, the Chorus 826v for example is one of those speakers I wish I had in my living room right now. Wharfedale hasn't impressed me since their factory burned down something like 30 years ago and they basically started over from scratch. I've never been impressed by Def Tech and I've owned quite a bit of it... just long enough to resell or throw away, in the case of stuff that broke. 802's are a good series for sure, I think superior for stereo in most rooms to the CM. Theil 2 series are ok but strangely make me want to hear a similar KEF for some reason. ML is love it or leave it. Like Maggies they just don't do it for me, but that's _me_. Aperion *should* be very good for the price range. I haven't heard the grand towers but have some of their smaller stuff. Well built, good sound, a lot of speaker for the money... Curiously, where did you hear them? I thought they only sold direct? You might not like Dali, I think they are similar to Focal in the same size brackets anyway, but I've enjoyed what I've heard.
> 
> Vandersteen is a love it or leave it too. Again, extremely good value with a fantastic sound, when placed and powered properly. They are one of the most finicky to place speakers I've ever played with and they are specifically designed for bi-amp/bi-wire for a reason. And Snell... one of my favorite speaker companies of all time, at least before they got bought out. Aerial Acoustics 10T might be difficult to squeeze under your $3000 mark, even used, but it's one of the speakers I am always on a look out for a sweet deal on... like drive 1000 miles to save $1000 on kind of sweet deal... they are THAT good, IMHO.


Hello,
Excellent Post. I could not agree more about your views on Snell. The D&M Holdings has not been kind to any of the brands under that umbrella. With perhaps the exception of McIntosh. While it certainly makes sense, I miss AVR's like the AVR-5805 that pushed the limits of what an AVR could do and could be. Moreover, the entire 05 Series still remain my favorite Denon AVR Series from an Amplification standpoint. The AVR-3808CI was really good as well and is still current enough for my purposes.
It certainly could be argued that the Economy has made it to where Flagships like the 5805, Pioneer SC-09 (Susano), the Marantz Reference AVR's, and more no longer are viable. However, Arcam did release the AVR600 and companies like Mark Levinson are still going...
Cheers,
JJ


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## showcattleguy

caper26 said:


> Energy RC70s are on for 400 each, and retailed almost 3K for a pair. Worth investigation. You don't need to spend 3K if you dont have to, to get the same quality.


I was told by a close friend that if I heard paradigm I've heard psb and energy. Not sure how true that is but he said all three based their speaker designs off of the same study. Also not sure how true that is. I will have to give them a listen though


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## caper26

The 70s sound like I have a sub in my living room at moderate levels. I EQ mine a little to tame down the mids and brighten the highs. For 3K, you can also check out the Veritas 6.3's in Rosenut or even piano black. If I had the spare cash lying around, that's what I would be after.


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## Jungle Jack

showcattleguy said:


> I was told by a close friend that if I heard paradigm I've heard psb and energy. Not sure how true that is but he said all three based their speaker designs off of the same study. Also not sure how true that is. I will have to give them a listen though


Hello,
While perhaps 10 years ago, the argument could be made about Paradigm and PSB. However, I really do not find this to be nearly so similar now. While a big fan of the Veritas, the rest of the Energy lineup is not nearly as accomplished and I have never held Energy in the same esteem as Paradigm and PSB.

Some of these comments stem from Canada's investment in the Speaker Industry with the NRC investing Millions of Dollars to help foster Canadian Speaker Companies with state of the art research facilities.
Cheers,
JJ


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## zieglj01

showcattleguy said:


> I was told by a close friend that if I heard paradigm I've heard psb and energy. Not sure how true that is but he said all three based their speaker designs off of the same study. Also not sure how true that is. I will have to give them a listen though


They all have a different sonic signature - At least listen to the PSB and Paradigm.


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## zieglj01

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Excellent Post. I could not agree more about your views on Snell. The D&M Holdings has not been kind to any of the brands under that umbrella. With perhaps the exception of McIntosh.


And now with the Boston VS series being discontinued - it looks like only main stream with
Boston for awhile. They did do a good job with the E and VS series. Things sure are changing.


----------



## GranteedEV

showcattleguy said:


> I was told by a close friend that if I heard paradigm I've heard psb and energy. Not sure how true that is but he said all three based their speaker designs off of the same study. Also not sure how true that is. I will have to give them a listen though


I don't think so.

For starters, Energy at the moment is really an offshoot of Klipsch. Like JJ said, it might have been true 5-10 years ago but not currently, apparently.

As for PSB, while their first and foremost approach comes from a similar approach to Paradigm (Metal dome tweeters, focus on smooth power response), there are some notable differences. Paradigm favors odd-order (Phase Quadrature) crossovers while PSB favors even order (Phase Summation) crossovers. That alone makes a pretty notable difference in the way a speaker radiates sound into the room and to your ears.

My suspicion, is that PSB speakers sound rather similar to Revel's mid level speakers, not Paradigm, but I would never ever agree with "You've heard A then you've heard B"


----------



## tesseract

showcattleguy said:


> I was told by a close friend that if I heard paradigm I've heard psb and energy. Not sure how true that is but he said all three based their speaker designs off of the same study. Also not sure how true that is. I will have to give them a listen though


This has not been my experience. Do give them a listen.


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## caper26

GranteedEV said:


> For starters, Energy at the moment is really an offshoot of Klipsch.


False.


----------



## phreak

showcattleguy said:


> I was told by a close friend that if I heard paradigm I've heard psb and energy. Not sure how true that is but he said all three based their speaker designs off of the same study. Also not sure how true that is. I will have to give them a listen though


I have not heard PSB but they will be on my short list next time I am in the market for speakers (which my wallet hopes will not be for a long time). Between Energy and Paradigm I hear no similarity. When I listen to Energy, I do not think they are bad, just that they are not something I want to listen to. They do not suit me, they may suit you. With Paradigm the reaction is very different. Every audition is extended for the simple reason that I do not want to leave the room. I love them right away. I love them months later. If at all possible listen to all 3 brands, along with as many more as possible, and decide for yourself.


----------



## Nuance

showcattleguy said:


> Could I get a few examples of more accurate speakers than the CM9's with an msrp under $3000 so I can add them to my list of speakers I would like to audition please


Salk SongTower RT w/RAAL ribbon tweeter









Philharmonic 2 or 3









Both of those would likely make your wife very made considering how much her B&W's cost.


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## ALMFamily

Oh man, Brandon, I simply cannot wait to be able to hear those! :bigsmile:


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## GranteedEV

caper26 said:


> False.


Energy is currently designed and manufactured by Audiovox using a former Klipsch design team, voiced with reference to older Energy speakers.

Even if it sounds great it's not the original Energy design team.


----------



## Nuance

ALMFamily said:


> Oh man, Brandon, I simply cannot wait to be able to hear those! :bigsmile:


I can't wait for you to hear them either! :T


----------



## showcattleguy

Nuance-
Those speakers sound that good huh? Well I look forward to trying to get a demonstration. Those are both ID brands correct? I will try to not let her know what I am doing when I audition them. I listened to a pair of Theils yesterday and she got upset I didn't bring her along. Thanks for the suggestions they look like beautiful speakers at the very least.


----------



## GranteedEV

showcattleguy said:


> Nuance-
> Those speakers sound that good huh? Well I look forward to trying to get a demonstration. Those are both ID brands correct? I will try to not let her know what I am doing when I audition them. I listened to a pair of Theils yesterday and she got upset I didn't bring her along. Thanks for the suggestions they look like beautiful speakers at the very least.


Both are ID, yes. I included them in the list I made about 8-9posts up.


----------



## Nuance

showcattleguy said:


> Nuance-
> Those speakers sound that good huh? Well I look forward to trying to get a demonstration. Those are both ID brands correct? I will try to not let her know what I am doing when I audition them. I listened to a pair of Theils yesterday and she got upset I didn't bring her along. Thanks for the suggestions they look like beautiful speakers at the very least.


I think they are, yes. I've heard well over 100 speakers now, and I personally like (mostly) the 802D, but I'd have a hard time giving up the Salk's in favor of them (though I ultimately would, as I have the SongTowers). It took me a long long time to find speakers this good for under $3000. I've also heard the Salk SoundScape line of speakers as well (their top of the line), and I feel they are far superior to the 802D, not to mention much cheaper. Yes, they are both ID, which is why their cost is so low compared to B&W and the like. YMMV, of course, but I bet your wife would be blown away by the sound; I think she'll also be blown away by the speakers I linked above too, though (the "cheaper" ones). Here's the one I just heard this weekend (a brand new design that retails for $8000/pair):

Front









Rear with open-back midrange cabinet









Close up









In short, I would take these over the B&W 802D's, Revel Ultima Salon2's and every other speaker I've heard in the $20,000 price range or less category. They are that good. So while I finally found my "perfect speaker" under $3000 (linked in my signature), I've now also found my perfect speaker for $10,000 as well. I say $10,000 because there are two models from the same line (the SoundScape 10 and 12) that are even better. Now if only I could afford any of them...


----------



## ALMFamily

Just a quick update - I have updated the "working" document tracking my speaker audition list. You can view it here:

Audition List

Again, if there are any speaker suggestions you have that I do not have listed, let me know! :bigsmile:


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## jimfrench

ALMFamily said:


> Just a quick update - I have updated the "working" document tracking my speaker audition list.
> 
> Again, if there are any speaker suggestions you have that I do not have listed, let me know! :bigsmile:


If your goal is a 5.1or 7.1 system, then look at the Monitor Audio RX6. They have a bit less bass than the RX8, but in a HT they are fully supported by your sub. The bass isn't that bad in any case. You have the 8's listed, but the 6's are worth a listen and would likely be easy to A/B with each other. Good luck but with the list you have it should be successful if not easy choice.


----------



## ALMFamily

jimfrench said:


> If your goal is a 5.1or 7.1 system, then look at the Monitor Audio RX6. They have a bit less bass than the RX8, but in a HT they are fully supported by your sub. The bass isn't that bad in any case. You have the 8's listed, but the 6's are worth a listen and would likely be easy to A/B with each other. Good luck but with the list you have it should be successful if not easy choice.


Welcome to HTS Jim! :wave: Thanks for making your first post in my thread. 

I am planning for 7.2 and already have 2 SVS PB-13 Ultras to pull sub duty so a tad lighter bass would probably be fine. I added them to my initial research list - thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## TypeA

ALMFamily said:


> Just a quick update - I have updated the "working" document tracking my speaker audition list. You can view it here:
> 
> Audition List
> 
> Again, if there are any speaker suggestions you have that I do not have listed, let me know! :bigsmile:


Nice progress. Certainly a bummer the Martin Logans are the only "N" for auditions. I thought this youtube video gives a good idea of the crispness of ribbons. 


http://youtu.be/dRf5aPulewM


----------



## Nuance

showcattleguy said:


> Nuance-
> Those speakers sound that good huh? Well I look forward to trying to get a demonstration. Those are both ID brands correct? I will try to not let her know what I am doing when I audition them. I listened to a pair of Theils yesterday and she got upset I didn't bring her along. Thanks for the suggestions they look like beautiful speakers at the very least.


I just realized you're in Illinois. You are welcome to attend our SE Wisconsin GTG on April 14th. If you attened you'll get to hear various Salk speakers, the Philharmonic 2's, the Ascend Tower's with RAAL and a few other speakers. Here's the link for more info, but let me know if you and the wife would like to make the trip (we've got people coming from much farther than IL).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1324185&page=15


----------



## ALMFamily

TypeA said:


> Nice progress. Certainly a bummer the Martin Logans are the only "N" for auditions. I thought this youtube video gives a good idea of the crispness of ribbons.
> 
> 
> http://youtu.be/dRf5aPulewM


Ty,

I think the biggest reason I decided not to include them is that I much prefer floorstanders for the HT room. However, when I get around to doing a bedroom system like Wayne did, these will be on my short list as I really like the look of them and I have not read any bad reviews on them as of yet. If I am able to find them locally, I may just see if I can't give the a quick listen for that very purpose. :bigsmile:

Joe


----------



## ALMFamily

By the way - I have not had much luck finding graphs for most of the speakers I have looked at so far. I am by no means an expert at attempting to read a graph, but it sure would help develop that skill if I could actually find them for a given speaker.

Any suggestions on the best place to locate that info?


----------



## JBrax

ALMFamily said:


> Welcome to HTS Jim! :wave: Thanks for making your first post in my thread.
> 
> I am planning for 7.2 and already have 2 SVS PB-13 Ultras to pull sub duty so a tad lighter bass would probably be fine. I added them to my initial research list - thanks for the suggestion!


2 pb13 ultras? A tad less bass is an understatement Joe. That's some serious subbage! I think you'd be ok with tweeters for mains.


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## ALMFamily

I need to start working out so I can use those bad boys as a stop-gap defibrilator when my wife hears them for the first time in the HT...... :devil:


----------



## astrallite

Because a lot of dealers won't let you audition you will have to bite the bullet and pay return shipping to see which speaker is the perfect one for you. Sometimes I will bite the bullet on a used speaker and if I don't like I will resell it--another option. Audio is a never ending quest.


----------



## ALMFamily

OK, I did a marathon listening session at my local shop on Friday - spent 2.5 hours there listening to the Studio 100s, Triton IIs, and CM9s. I also - just by pure luck - got to hear a set of Thiel CS2.4s. I will post my impressions tomorrow - long day working in the HT today...... :yawn:


----------



## 95silverstallion

That is a top notch teaser post!:scratch:


----------



## caper26

ALMFamily said:


> ... long day working in the HT today...... :yawn:


Wish I was working on mine... instead bathtub, surround, exhaust fans, spackling...etc..


----------



## ALMFamily

So, after my aptly named teaser post, some of the details:

I first listened to the Studio 100s as I had gave them a go once before - they were as I remembered - detailed and good thump. I was still impressed with them.

Next up was the Triton IIs. Aesthetically, they were just OK - it is not a speaker that I feel like I could take the grill off and have it look impressive in any fashion. That was one of the things I like about the Studios - they are a nice looking speaker with grills off and on. They are much taller and slimmer than the Studios as well which allows for a bit more leeway as far as placement in my specific situation. One thing I did not realize about these was that the woofers have their own powered amp and require an outlet - that curtails the flexibility somewhat. The CC was not hooked up so I did not hear it, but first impression - underwhelming.

As far as sound, the Tritons are a more laid back speaker in comparison to the Studios IMO - there was not as much detail as I noticed with them - intake of breath, snap of a drum were somewhat lost. The vocals as well as the horns (from the RoTK tracks) just were not as dynamic. Also, with the powered woofers, I have a feeling they were pulled back a bit as there was nowhere near the level of thump I noticed from the Studios. The width and depth of the soundstage was also a bit limited - on axis was OK, but once you moved around a bit there was a definite decline in performance.

In summation of the Tritons - as I am sure you can probably tell from above - I was not terribly impressed. They just did not captivate me as well as the 100s did.

As far as the CM9, I was just starting to listen to them when the owner asked me about my knowledge of compressed versus loseless files. As I am somewhat limited knowledge-wise in this regard, he walked me through the difference. In the process, I noticed in another room what I thought looked like the Thiel CS2.4s - lo and behold they were! As they were on my list as well, I sat down to take a listen.......

And I was very impressed. They were incredibly detailed without the slightest sense of brightness - they were more dynamic than the 100s IMO and were not overbearing at all. Female vocals were amazing - so crystal clear and you could hear every breath with great range. The best way I can describe it was that the sound just felt effortless. I was able to discern so many nuances in the tracks that I just had not heard previously. But, after closing my eyes - I could not locate the speakers at all - they had disappeared seamlessly.

Off axis, there was a slight drop off in sound but it did not occur until about 45 degrees off center - beyond where my outermost seats would be. The towers are very unique-looking and look impressive with grills on and off. I was not keen on the finish of those particular speakers and I have not looked to see what the CC and surrounds look like - need to check those out.

All in all, I was extremely pleased with the 2.4s. If I had to order them at this point, it would be:

Thiel CS2.4
Studio 100s
Triton IIs

I need to go back and give the CM9s a go, but I have a sneaking suspicion they won't wow me like the Thiels did. The one downside - the price tag.  I would more than likely need to either look for used or plan to buy speakers in pieces.

That's it for now - more to come soon!


----------



## GranteedEV

How would you compare your current speakers to the ones you auditioned?


----------



## TypeA

Certainly the results you would expect, save the Triton IIs. I would have figured they fared better in performance given their fine reviews. My taste in looks is spot-on with yours, the Studios are almost intimidating :gulp:


----------



## PTAaron

I have nothing useful to add, as your speaker budget exceeds my whole room budget - but I am really enjoying this thread so far and feel like I am learning quite a bit.

Good luck on your quest!


----------



## ALMFamily

GranteedEV said:


> How would you compare your current speakers to the ones you auditioned?


LOL! Now, why did I not think of that?! For those that do not know, I purchased a set of the Emp Tek e55Ti B-Stock towers a while ago. In comparison, I would put the Emp Teks just a shade below the Studio 100s - TBH, I would be fine with either speaker. Aesthetically, I like the look of the 100s a tad better and the CC for the 100s (the 690) is probably the most intimidating CC I have seen from those I researched so far.

As far as sound, the 100s seem to be more.... forward (?) than my Emp Teks. The best way I can explain it is when I listen to the 100s, I feel like the soundstage is right on top of me - almost pushing at me. This is probably why I liked the Thiels more than the 100s because they had great detail, but I did not get that feeling while listening to them. Comparing the Thiels to the Emp Teks, the Emp Teks do not have the detail of the Thiels - probably not even close. Now, don't get me wrong - I am very glad I got the Emp Teks as they have proven to provide a good listening experience for me and I plan on them permanently residing in my living room system. That said, for my dedicated HT, I would definitely choose the Thiels over everything else I have heard so far. 

I guess my biggest issue is, this is my first real foray into good HT sound - it has been car audio for me mostly (and an Acoustimass 10 stint). For me, I always hiked the treble way up and the bass slightly so I have become accustomed to a "brighter" sound I guess.

However, after listening to the Emp Teks for the past month, I have gained a greater appreciation for a speaker that just "disappears" as this is what the Emp Teks do for me. This is probably the most important factor for my final choice - I want great sound that is just heard and not seen.

Hopefully, that response is somewhat understandable - reading through it I am not so sure it is not just a rambling gargled mess. :dumbcrazy:



TypeA said:


> Certainly the results you would expect, save the Triton IIs. I would have figured they fared better in performance given their fine reviews. My taste in looks is spot-on with yours, the Studios are almost intimidating :gulp:


Agreed Ty - I too thought the Triton IIs would fare better and was really disappointed.



PTAaron said:


> I have nothing useful to add, as your speaker budget exceeds my whole room budget - but I am really enjoying this thread so far and feel like I am learning quite a bit.
> 
> Good luck on your quest!


Thanks Aaron! I actually invested (my other main interest) my initial speaker budget and it has grown to this point. Matter of fact, given the recent market trend, my budget is a bit higher than it was when I first began this "journey". :jump: Now, if I just hit the lottery maybe I can look at those Legacy speakers Dave reviewed a couple weeks ago...


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Have you had a chance to listen to any Focal, Dynaudio, Revel, and the PSB Imagine or Synchrony Series? The Focal 826w Prestige Edition is excellent and uses the "W" Woofer used in much more expensive Focal Speakers. And the others have Speakers that cost close to the same as the 2.4's.

While if it was me, I would probably be agonizing between the 2.4's and the 826w's, given the investment it is certainly worth the due diligence of auditioning these others as well. As this Thread is on Page 17, it is hard to remember if you had already listened to many/any of these other Speakers.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## GranteedEV

ALMFamily said:


> As far as sound, the 100s seem to be more.... forward (?) than my Emp Teks. The best way I can explain it is when I listen to the 100s, I feel like the soundstage is right on top of me - almost pushing at me. This is probably why I liked the Thiels more than the 100s because they had great detail, but I did not get that feeling while listening to them. Comparing the Thiels to the Emp Teks, the Emp Teks do not have the detail of the Thiels - probably not even close. Now, don't get me wrong - I am very glad I got the Emp Teks as they have proven to provide a good listening experience for me and I plan on them permanently residing in my living room system. That said, for my dedicated HT, I would definitely choose the Thiels over everything else I have heard so far.


Heh... of course you can't expect a speaker you paid $400 for to REALLY be in the same league as a much more expensive speaker, but it's good that you're starting to establish a sense of "image dissapearance" that you find you prefer 

As far as the EMPs are concerned their high end siblings might be a much more realistic comparision to those Thiels, like the RBH SX-6300/R ($3280/pr)










or the Status Acoustics 8T ($50000/pr)


----------



## rmichnow

Joe,

Thanks for providing information on your demos. Its invaluable as it allows me to compare notes.

I had recent demos of the following:

Goldenear Triton 2 - 2 demos in 2 different environments. Both demos were very different. 1st demo was terrible. Too much bass muddied the mid-range. In fairness, I attribute that to the possibility the bass knob was too high (I didn't check), as well as, the location of the speakers were close to the walls bunched in with other speakers.
I had a second listen to the Triton 2 at Stereo Exchange in NYC and the demo was much more successful. Overall, I"m not yet convinced this is the speaker for me. I'm beginning to think it creates more problems when a speaker integrates a subwoofer.

B&W CM9 - Did everything correctly. Mids and highs sounded good. However, for me something was missing and I believe it was imaging. The sound was coming directly from the speakers and I was not able to visualize musicians in the room.

Martin Logan Electro Motion ESLs - I'm fascinated with this speaker. I've listened to the ESLs in 4 different locations for a total of 3 hours. Each listening experience was completely different. 1st listen was incredible. Volume was pumped up and the couch was shaking due to the bass, which in my mind was not suppose to happen based on its specifications. I never left the sweet spot during this listen and was blown away. I also experienced a horrible demo with these speakers. The sweet spot was below ear level and between the panels. Everytime I stood up, where ear level was higher than the panels, the sound-field collapsed. Volume was significantly degraded and everything sounded flat. In addition, not good when wide left and right of the panels, even at ear level below the top. 
This experience made me nervous about purchasing the ESLs. Its very dependent on positioning and room environment. I am thinking of purchasing on a 30 day trial from one of the many online retailers. If I experience what happened during the demo at home, I simply disconnect, pack up and ship back.

Next week, I have demos scheduled for the PSB Imagine and Totem Sttaf and Hawk. This dealer also carries Revel and the Concerta F12 is certainly within the price range, so I may take a listen. He's also a Sonus Faber dealer and the Toy series has peaked my interest.

Since I'm into Home Theater, one of my main criteria is floor-standers with a great center speaker. The Center Speaker performance is a must.

Please keep on providing information. Thanks.


----------



## ALMFamily

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Have you had a chance to listen to any Focal, Dynaudio, Revel, and the PSB Imagine or Synchrony Series? The Focal 826w Prestige Edition is excellent and uses the "W" Woofer used in much more expensive Focal Speakers. And the others have Speakers that cost close to the same as the 2.4's.
> 
> While if it was me, I would probably be agonizing between the 2.4's and the 826w's, given the investment it is certainly worth the due diligence of auditioning these others as well. As this Thread is on Page 17, it is hard to remember if you had already listened to many/any of these other Speakers.
> Cheers,
> JJ


So far, the only speakers I have heard are the Thiels, Studio 100s, Triton IIs and the Emp Tek e55Tis. This Friday, I will be taking a trip down to Saturday Audio and listening to as many of the following speakers as I can:

PSB Synchrony One and Two
Sonus Faber Luito Towers
Totem Hawks and Sttafs
PSB Imagine T and T2
Monitor Audio RX6 and RX8

I did take a look at the Dynaudio Xcite line - after reading the reviews, I decided to not actively pursue giving them a listen since most reviews I read were not glowing. I have the Focal 826 available at a nearby American TV, but their room is far from ideal so I am not sure how they will sound - I will be giving them a go though. I have not done any research on the Revels as of yet.

Fortunately, next month I am attending a GTG here in WI that will have the following speakers available:

Philharmonic IIs
Salk Soundscape 10s
Vapor Audio Joules
Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower w/RAAL tweeter
Salk Songtowers w/RAAL tweeter
Salk Sound Veracity HT2 w/RAAL tweeter
PSB Image T55 towers

The following weekend I am making the trip to Craig's for the CHT GTG and another HTS member has graciously offered to have me come over to listen to his Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 system. 

Here is a link to the current living document. I added a column on the 1st page listing the audition date for each speaker. I have also added a second page (called Speaker Technical Specs) that lists all the specifications I can find for the given speaker. I will be adding a third page giving the details of my audition for each speaker and my impressions (as soon as I can :bigsmile. 



GranteedEV said:


> Heh... of course you can't expect a speaker you paid $400 for to REALLY be in the same league as a much more expensive speaker, but it's good that you're starting to establish a sense of "image dissapearance" that you find you prefer
> 
> As far as the EMPs are concerned their high end siblings might be a much more realistic comparision to those Thiels, like the RBH SX-6300/R ($3280/pr)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or the Status Acoustics 8T ($50000/pr)


Good point.  And, for 50k a pair, those speakers better dance and tell jokes too! 



rmichnow said:


> Joe,
> 
> Thanks for providing information on your demos. Its invaluable as it allows me to compare notes.
> 
> I had recent demos of the following:
> 
> Goldenear Triton 2 - 2 demos in 2 different environments. Both demos were very different. 1st demo was terrible. Too much bass muddied the mid-range. In fairness, I attribute that to the possibility the bass knob was too high (I didn't check), as well as, the location of the speakers were close to the walls bunched in with other speakers.
> I had a second listen to the Triton 2 at Stereo Exchange in NYC and the demo was much more successful. Overall, I"m not yet convinced this is the speaker for me. I'm beginning to think it creates more problems when a speaker integrates a subwoofer.
> 
> B&W CM9 - Did everything correctly. Mids and highs sounded good. However, for me something was missing and I believe it was imaging. The sound was coming directly from the speakers and I was not able to visualize musicians in the room.
> 
> Martin Logan Electro Motion ESLs - I'm fascinated with this speaker. I've listened to the ESLs in 4 different locations for a total of 3 hours. Each listening experience was completely different. 1st listen was incredible. Volume was pumped up and the couch was shaking due to the bass, which in my mind was not suppose to happen based on its specifications. I never left the sweet spot during this listen and was blown away. I also experienced a horrible demo with these speakers. The sweet spot was below ear level and between the panels. Everytime I stood up, where ear level was higher than the panels, the sound-field collapsed. Volume was significantly degraded and everything sounded flat. In addition, not good when wide left and right of the panels, even at ear level below the top.
> This experience made me nervous about purchasing the ESLs. Its very dependent on positioning and room environment. I am thinking of purchasing on a 30 day trial from one of the many online retailers. If I experience what happened during the demo at home, I simply disconnect, pack up and ship back.
> 
> Next week, I have demos scheduled for the PSB Imagine and Totem Sttaf and Hawk. This dealer also carries Revel and the Concerta F12 is certainly within the price range, so I may take a listen. He's also a Sonus Faber dealer and the Toy series has peaked my interest.
> 
> Since I'm into Home Theater, one of my main criteria is floor-standers with a great center speaker. The Center Speaker performance is a must.
> 
> Please keep on providing information. Thanks.


Thanks for the info from your own demos! Very helpful and we are about to listen to several of the same speakers - it will be great comparing notes. I know I should audition a set of MLs, but I keep hearing how finicky they can be and it makes me nervous as well.


----------



## ALMFamily

I would like to add a link to the living document to my 1st post - do any of the moderators following this thread have the ability to unlock that for me? If you do and could for me, I would sincerely appreciate it. 

Thanks!!


----------



## tesseract

ALMFamily said:


> I would like to add a link to the living document to my 1st post - do any of the moderators following this thread have the ability to unlock that for me? If you do and could for me, I would sincerely appreciate it.
> 
> Thanks!!


I cannot unlock the post, but I did edit it for you. If you'd like something different, or wish to add something, send me a PM and I'll get r done.


----------



## ALMFamily

That's perfect - cheers mate! :T


----------



## showcattleguy

ALMFamily- I listened to the 2.4's about a week ago at University Audio and I was impressed but it didn't quite knock my socks off. I went to pick up some isolation materials so I didn't have my demo CD with me so I listened to unfamiliar music. With that being said I didn't feel they were very dynamic. I like a speaker to go from 0-100-0 right now and maybe it was the material but I felt they really didn't have that capability. Plus they are a little more than what I would like to spend. On a side note I think its cool your other passion is investing, mine too. I also invested my whole room budget in AAPL in April of '09 sadly I sold half after it crossed $400 but I put it into a Mico 40 so I am happy. Probably use the 70 shares I have left to buy the wife something fancy for putting up with me and my HT disease.


----------



## ALMFamily

showcattleguy said:


> ALMFamily- I listened to the 2.4's about a week ago at University Audio and I was impressed but it didn't quite knock my socks off. I went to pick up some isolation materials so I didn't have my demo CD with me so I listened to unfamiliar music. With that being said I didn't feel they were very dynamic. I like a speaker to go from 0-100-0 right now and maybe it was the material but I felt they really didn't have that capability. Plus they are a little more than what I would like to spend. On a side note I think its cool your other passion is investing, mine too. I also invested my whole room budget in AAPL in April of '09 sadly I sold half after it crossed $400 but I put it into a Mico 40 so I am happy. Probably use the 70 shares I have left to buy the wife something fancy for putting up with me and my HT disease.


I guess what I enjoyed most is that I felt I heard exactly what was meant to be heard - without the speakers losing anything in the translastion. It was just a clean, crisp listening experience - perhaps I am confusing the term dynamic? To me, dynamic means its ability to maintain the swings in vocal range while still keeping that feeling that I am hearing everything. Is that not accurate? And, yeah, they basically ate up my budget for just the towers - would definitely be looking used if I went with those.

I find so few people with an interest in investing - perhaps I should start a Swamp thread where people could discuss strategies, what fundamentals they look for, things like that. Definitely not a advice on specific buys thread, just a friendly discussion of what kinds of things to look for when picking, buying / selling, etc. Might be fun and informative.........


----------



## Oktyabr

You could always go DIY... or pay someone to build for you, if you don't like sawdust or something. That's my next front speaker, an 18" H-frame with a full range 8" on top open baffle dipole (Martin Logan and Maggies are both a type of open baffle).

According to Martin King's specs these should do a full 20Hz-20KHz and cost me under $1000 for the pair. Start building with more exotic drivers and designs and something like the $7500 (on sale) Jamo R909 or the Linkwitz Orion are possible, with a way to tailor to suit your needs and budget.


----------



## ALMFamily

Oktyabr said:


> You could always go DIY... or pay someone to build for you, if you don't like sawdust or something. That's my next front speaker, an 18" H-frame with a full range 8" on top open baffle dipole (Martin Logan and Maggies are both a type of open baffle).
> 
> According to Martin King's specs these should do a full 20Hz-20KHz and cost me under $1000 for the pair. Start building with more exotic drivers and designs and something like the $7500 (on sale) Jamo R909 or the Linkwitz Orion are possible, with a way to tailor to suit your needs and budget.


Oh, I don't mind DIY at all - I actually plan to stick my nose into the DIY world at some point. However, I am currently building my HT room - if I were to start building speakers as well I might never finish either! 

Plus, as this is my 1st real home audio venture, I would like to get a feel for what I appreciate before I start building my own.....


----------



## showcattleguy

I think of dynamic as the quietest to the loudest my favorite demo of this is Copland's Hoe Down about 2mins in there are oboes playing very very softly then out of no where the trumpets and trombones and strings blast 5 notes at an almost deafening level then back to nothing. My wifes 802D's do this fantastically thats is what I meant by 0-100-0 without getting sloshy or muddy. Maybe I have the term wrong. I felt the crossovers in the theils didn't know where to route some of the information and therefore made it muddy. 
The idea of an informal investment "club" would be cool. I would definately participate in that as investing was my love before HT, and before my wife. Are you long/short do you do fundamental/technical analysis?


----------



## ALMFamily

Now I understand what you mean by 0-100-0 - the _Angel_ track is the one that was suggested to me to perform that kind of test - I actually thought it performed pretty well on that. I suppose that just proves the point that listening to as many as possible is paramount as one person's opinion of a specific speaker can vary widely with anothers - it is definitely a personal thing.

I really should start that thread and not derail this one, but the short answer is short and I sure do - I subscribe to the William O'Neil CANSLIM principles.


----------



## Oktyabr

Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man is another highly dynamic piece of music... the trick is finding the right version! I have one that at something close to "live" volume levels (from one of the front rows) it chased two different pair of Maggies and a pair of Dahlquist out of my living room in shame. The guy that bought the speakers (!) left me with it but I've never been able to find out who did it.


----------



## ALMFamily

OK, here is one for everyone - my neighbor was telling me he knows someone who is selling some "German made speakers that are oil cooled". I have no idea what company that might be - anyone heard of this type of speaker before?


----------



## GranteedEV

ALMFamily said:


> OK, here is one for everyone - my neighbor was telling me he knows someone who is selling some "German made speakers that are oil cooled". I have no idea what company that might be - anyone heard of this type of speaker before?


I would tell your friend to be wary for starters, and get the name of the company in case it's a white van scam.

That said, it could be a reference to some form of ferrofluid, which is commonly used in loudspeaker cooling.


----------



## Oktyabr

ALMFamily said:


> OK, here is one for everyone - my neighbor was telling me he knows someone who is selling some "German made speakers that are oil cooled". I have no idea what company that might be - anyone heard of this type of speaker before?


Could be some old Grundig, probably is in fact. "Oil cooled" means nothing. It's technology that's still used today, it just doesn't get as much press anymore. PHOTOS?


----------



## ALMFamily

No photos - he was not all that interested in it - just mentioned it to me since he knew I was building.

Teaser alert - went to Saturday Audio today and listened to the PSB Synchrony Ones, the Sonus Faber Liutos, the PSB Imagine T2s, the GoldenEar Triton IIs (again), and the Totem Acoustic Hawks. I will be updating the thread / google doc this weekend with my impressions.


----------



## showcattleguy

Where is Saturday audio I have heard good things about psb and totem


----------



## ALMFamily

It is in Chicago on W Belmont - one thing they told me that I will pass on. The Synchrony Twos are being phased out by PSB so it sounds like they will be having some really decent prices......


----------



## ALMFamily

Sorry, a couple days later than promised, but I have updated the Google doc with my impressions of the following speakers auditioned on 3/23. Again, a link to the document has been placed in the first post in this thread. I have added a new page - Current Ranking Order to allow me to track where each one fits in comparison to the others.

PSB Synchrony Ones
Sonus Faber Liutos
GoldenEar Triton IIs (second audition at new store)
PSB Image T2s
Totem Acoustic Hawks

Quick Impressions - the Synchrony Ones and Liutos were the highlight of the auditions - both were great listens with the edge to the Synch Ones for my planned usage as well as the product flexibility.

Next up - a trip to the local American TV to listem to the Polk LSiM707s.


----------



## showcattleguy

Did you ever get another chance to demo the B&W's?


----------



## ALMFamily

No, I have not yet. I am planning a return trip to my local store to listen to them as well as another go at the Thiels.


----------



## ALMFamily

I sent out a message to Energy support in an attempt to find a dealer for the Veritas 6.3 and RC-70 speakers a couple weeks ago. They responded today - interestingly enough, I did not realize that Energy is made by Klipsch (as the message came from the Klipsch Group support):

_ Thank you for your email and your interest in our current Energy brand products. The landscape of audio dealer has changed dramatically over the past several years and even more so during the economic depression of the past four years. In addition, the Energy brand has changed since the former Canadian based company, Audio Products International (API) went out of business (they would have been the company who would have engineered and designed the former Reference Connoisseur (RC) line which would have included the RC-70 model.

The only access to dealer locations we would have visibility to would be the same as that listed on the website "where to buy" locator and we would not have any visibility as to which dealer has what on display or in stock (American TV is not listed among the dealers when I typed in your zip code under the where to buy locator).

Please re-check the locator. I can tell you that the current Veritas are only listed under a couple of "internet" dealers as the distribution of this line has changed and would be only available in limited distribution inside the US. _

After following the link provided, ironically enough American TV DOES still show on the local dealer list.....

Long story short - the Energy speakers might be an incredibly hard find for auditions.


----------



## yammyguy

I have the PSB T6's and after many years and $, I have to say they are hard to beat for the money. The new PSB Imagine T2's look to be very very nice also. A good sub (or two) is a must.


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks for the response Yammy! Agreed on the T2 - it is a good speaker and has many of the Synch Ones qualities - without the Synch One price. And, spot on - a good sub would be a must.


----------



## Nuance

I started a thread for Philharmonic speakers but it seems it was deleted. Did I break some sort of forum rule?


----------



## tesseract

Nuance, there is an existing thread, found here. Feel free to bump it up, I'd like to see more discussion about Dennis Murphy's Philharmonic speakers.


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## Nuance

tesseract said:


> Nuance, there is an existing thread, found here. Feel free to bump it up, I'd like to see more discussion about Dennis Murphy's Philharmonic speakers.


Thanks - I must have misspelled philharmonic when searching to see if a thread already existed. My bad; sorry.


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## ALMFamily

Nuance said:


> Thanks - I must have misspelled philharmonic when searching to see if a thread already existed. My bad; sorry.


No worries - glad to see you are still checking up on me!


----------



## Nuance

ALMFamily said:


> No worries - glad to see you are still checking up on me!


But of course! I am enjoying your progress thus far and look forward to meeting you in person in just over two weeks.


----------



## BaronSamdi

Just ran across this thread. While I was tempted to only buy new and did when starting out I slowly discovered that for $$ spent I was better served with used speakers and power amps. Currently I have Infinity Kappa 8's for front mains and infinity RS-6b"s for sides and rears and used the drivers and crossovers of an RS-6 in a cabinet I built for a center channel and Kappa 5.0's (small 2 way acoustic suspension) for presence I got the Kappa 8's for $ 600 and the others for about 240 a pair. Though the 8's don't really need subs I built a pair using 15" tempest drivers and built an adjustable Linkwitz transform to dial in the q I want for the home theater. I drive all these with old hafler xl 280's and a xl 600 with a Yamaha Aventage rx-1000 receiver for a front end and for the presence and rear speakers. I have no idea what equivalent new speakers and amps would cost.


----------



## Oktyabr

BaronSamdi said:


> Just ran across this thread. While I was tempted to only buy new and did when starting out I slowly discovered that for $$ spent I was better served with used speakers and power amps. Currently I have Infinity Kappa 8's for front mains and infinity RS-6b"s for sides and rears and used the drivers and crossovers of an RS-6 in a cabinet I built for a center channel and Kappa 5.0's (small 2 way acoustic suspension) for presence I got the Kappa 8's for $ 600 and the others for about 240 a pair. Though the 8's don't really need subs I built a pair using 15" tempest drivers and built an adjustable Linkwitz transform to dial in the q I want for the home theater. I drive all these with old hafler xl 280's and a xl 600 with a Yamaha Aventage rx-1000 receiver for a front end and for the presence and rear speakers. I have no idea what equivalent new speakers and amps would cost.


I was bored so I looked them up! :bigsmile:

The Kappa 8's were $2000 new in 1987. Excellent speaker by the way! I had both the Kappa 8.1 and the 6.1 as fronts and rears in a day when I had a larger room. The 6B's were $640 a pair brand new in 1985. The Halfer 280 was $725 new in 1986 (do you have one or two?) and the Halfer 600 was $1250 in 1988. Adjusted for inflation to US dollars 2010 (the calculator didn't have numbers for 2011 or 2012 yet) those Kappa 8's would cost $3,787 a pair, the 6B's would be $1279 a pair, the 280 would be $1422 and the 600 a whopping $2273 in "today's money" (2010). A grand total of $8,761 for two pair of speakers and two amps. :gulp:

Subwoofers used, especially higher end ones, are usually very difficult to go wrong with. They tend to be pretty well cared for and because they aren't usually placed somewhere that draws the eye a lot can be a very good investment.


----------



## BaronSamdi

Adding another 280 the the drivers and crossover for the center and the 5's puts me over 10K so I am getting close to 5 to one. No way I could spend 10K on amps and speakers. The electric bill is high in the summer but the sound is worth it. The plasma is looking a bit small so next a screen and projector. I was also very fond of a par of Dalquist DQ-10's but they or my amp could not handle the dynamic range of digital recordings.

My intent was to encourage "Newb" to consider the cost to value ratio of some classic gear.


----------



## tesseract

Hafler XL series is a very good value. These amps were way ahead of their time and still competitive today.


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks for the suggestion Baron! TBH, I would have no idea where to even begin when looking for "classic" gear - this is my 1st real foray into HT. If you have any suggestions, please let me know so I can do a bit of research on them to see if they would be an option for me.

Thanks much!


----------



## BaronSamdi

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks for the suggestion Baron! TBH, I would have no idea where to even begin when looking for "classic" gear - this is my 1st real foray into HT. If you have any suggestions, please let me know so I can do a bit of research on them to see if they would be an option for me.
> 
> Thanks much!


I would do as you have done so far. Just start a companion thread asking for suggestions. Much would depend on your location and and the availability of gear you might audition in your area. Some things are good even if you can't hear them first such as basic power amps. Once you reach a certain point they will all sound very similar. Speakers are the most variable item and it really helps to give them a listen. I am very fond of the Infinity Kappa's in particular the 7's and 8's but these are Large floor standing speakers that are fond of power. I would avoid the Kappa 9's as they are very difficult for many amps to drive and have a reputation as amp killers. In basic power amps I am fond of the Hafler XL -280's. Their sound is very accurate and they are stable into a 2 ohm load. Off the top of my head they are 145 into 8 ohms, 200 into 4 ohms and 400 bridged into 8 and I forget what into 4. I use 2 to drive my Kappa 8's which are designed to be bi-amped if you want, otherwise I would use the Hafler xl 600 which is also stable into 2 ohms and put out a conservatively rated 305 watts per channel. Adcom also makes and made some very solid amps that cam be purchased for reasonable prices. Other amps you might look into are Brystons and Thresholds (still expensive). but its past time for me to be asleep. Oh and one of the factors that led me to lean toward the Yamaha receiver is that it has preamp outs which allow me to use it as a preamp for the channels I wish to. One more thing quickly I have a friend who has an old Velodyne 18" powered sub which is awesome.

Later Baron


----------



## BaronSamdi

Did a little research and the now antique sub my friend has is the Velodyne ULD-18 see --http://www.stereophile.com/content/velodyne-uld-18-amp-uld-15-subwoofers-specifications--- newer and much more powerful models include the FSR-18, HGS-18, and from 2004 the D-18 which was 5K then. I saw much more affordable used prices on the older models. They all had premo write ups.


----------



## Oktyabr

BaronSamdi said:


> Adcom also makes and made some very solid amps that cam be purchased for reasonable prices.


+1 :T

I'd certainly take a look at Parasound, Rotel, Emotiva, B&K, NAD and even Carver, if they are well taken care of and at a suitable "used" discount.

Sounds like ALMFamily's neck of the woods has several good stereo shops. You might be surprised to see what sort of stuff these guys take in as "trade ins" and the sort of prices they are willing to move them out at too.

Some Thiel CS-6 for $3000 and an Adcom 565 for $400 over in Prairie du Chien, WI: http://madison.craigslist.org/ele/2871800897.html. Not bad since the CS-6 were over $7000 when new and the 565 still sells for twice that in places. See if he'll throw in the 565(s)? for free with the CS-6?


----------



## tesseract

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks for the suggestion Baron! TBH, I would have no idea where to even begin when looking for "classic" gear - this is my 1st real foray into HT. If you have any suggestions, please let me know so I can do a bit of research on them to see if they would be an option for me.
> 
> Thanks much!


How about HTS sponsor StereoList? Looky here, a Hafler classic. :bigsmile:

Also, Audiogon and Ebay have tons of used gear.


----------



## ALMFamily

Thank you all - I have actually been monitoring Craigslist, Audiogon and eBay to see what used gear is out there. To this point, I had only been looking for amps (except Audiogon - I have been looking at speakers there too). I will have to widen that out a bit to see what kind of used speakers are out there........


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Those Thiels sound mighty tempting to me and the Adcom 565's are probably my favorite Adcom Amplifier of all time. That really is a fantastic model and provided they have been well taken care of, should provide you with years of sonic bliss. Moreover, Thiel is excellent in respect to maintaining Parts and Support to Legacy Models.
J


----------



## ALMFamily

Just curious what your thoughts are on the difference between the Thiel CS2.4 and the CS-6?

More than likely, I will be making a decision here in the next month. I have the WI GTG coming up which will provide about 7-10 different speaker auditions - at that point I will have heard about 15 different speakers......


----------



## Jungle Jack

ALMFamily said:


> Just curious what your thoughts are on the difference between the Thiel CS2.4 and the CS-6?
> 
> More than likely, I will be making a decision here in the next month. I have the WI GTG coming up which will provide about 7-10 different speaker auditions - at that point I will have heard about 15 different speakers......


The CS6 literally weighs 100 Pounds each more than the 2.4's. (170lbs vs 70) It plays lower, goes louder, and has a far more intricate Cabinet Design. The 2.4 is around 4 or 5 years newer, but the CS6 is an almost $8000 Speaker new and is truly is a different class. I love the 2.4's, but the CS6's are really special.


----------



## Gregr

Ya now, as long as you are considering some of the pristine and well cared for classic speakers like Theil. Here are a pair of CS3.5's for $950 in very nice condition (see link below).

I have recommended this site to only a few people. Msshifi.com or on eBay. (same name). I will not buy without first checking Msshifi. They sell Theil (of course) Magico, Martin Logan, Wilson Audio, Totem, Sonus Faber, Velodyne, JL Audio, Focal and on and on. Some amazing mark-down's and package pricing. 

Msshifi is in New York. Might be worth a Road-Trip since you could potentially listen to so many speaker manufacturers and models. If you call ahead to determine availability. 

http://www.msshifi.com/crazy-super-.../thiel-cs3-5-speakers-outboard-equalizer.html


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello, 
MSS has some awesome deals. The guy who owns it used to go by the repugnant name JB The Audio Pimp on Audiogon. 
He has since cleaned up his image. Most of what he gets is Transshipped from Authorized Dealers who need to meet their Sales Quota or risk losing the Brand. The savings are huge on new gear, but there is no Warranty on Brand New gear. 
Cheers, 
JJ


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks for the link Greg - I will check it out.

Just got back from the SE WI GTG and got to listen to the following speakers:

Philharmonic IIs
Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower w/RAAL tweeter
Salk Songtowers w/LCY tweeter
JTR Triple 12HT-lp
Salk HT2 w/LCY tweeter
Seaton Catalyst 12C w/stands
Salk Soundscape 10s

Over the next few days, I will post impressions and get the Google doc updated.


----------



## ALMFamily

I will try to post some pics soon.......


----------



## Nuance

I just wanted to say that it was an absolute pleasure to meet you, ALMFamily. You're one of the nicest guys I've ever met at these GTG's and I had a great time chatting with you. I hope the trip was worth it, and I want you to know you are welcome to join me (us) again any time. I hope your speaker journey comes to a close soon, and then you can have me over to hear your new system. :T


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks again Brandon! I am in the process of writing up my reviews (lost all day yesterday getting campers and boats out of storage) and hope to have them posted later today. I will say - I have been somewhat reluctant to do so after reading some of the posts on that other forum.......


----------



## GranteedEV

So are you going to AK fest this saturday?
:whistling:

I'm not sure what your thoughts were on the Philharmonics, but my gut tells me you want to hear them a second time there, with Dennis doing the setup himself and confirmation that nothing may have been awry.


----------



## ALMFamily

What is AK Fest and do you have a link? I really would like to hear them a 2nd time as there has been some discussion on if they were somehow damaged in shipping.


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## tesseract

Here you go. http://akfest.com/


----------



## Nuance

ALMFamily said:


> What is AK Fest and do you have a link? I really would like to hear them a 2nd time as there has been some discussion on if they were somehow damaged in shipping.


Dennis will not be bringing them unfortunately.

Are you going to post your GTG impressions? Don't let the trolls at AVS prevent you from posting your impressions. There will always be someone to complain about your OPINION, but just ignore them. I look forward to your thoughts.

P.S. I am sure you've now learned about the left monoblock amplifier likely being the cause of the distortion in the SoundScapes and other various speakers. Terry called Klaus from Odyssey Audio and confirmed it was likely the amp. Terry told me Monday that the amp has a bad transistor and had to be biases "hot," which Klaus said probably was the culprit with the speaker distortion. Jim Salk found zero issues with the SoundScape 10's when he got them back to his shop (no damage and cannot re-create the distortion we heard), so paired with the new info we know about the left monoblock amp it seems all of the speakers were fine. I guess that means any of that compression/distortion/struggling we heard through the speakers was actually the amp. What a shame...I feel like it was all for nothing now.


----------



## ALMFamily

I will be posting them Brandon. I apologize - I wanted to have them out by yesterday but unfortunately life got in the way.  I have started the post and have the 1st couple typed up - I will try to get them posted as soon as I can.

I have not actually read the thread the past couple of days (that life thing again  and this is the first site I normally come to) so I did not know about the amp issue. I still do not think it was all for naught as all speakers were dealing with the same issue so it was still a level playing field so to speak.

I can't attend the AK Fest - baseball starts this weekend for my oldest with practices both days.........

Awwww, I just noticed it is in Novi, Michigan too. That is where Aaron lives - would have been nice to drop in on him........


----------



## ALMFamily

Oooooooohhh - AKFest is not this weekend - it is next weekend. I may have to just check my busy social calendar....... Anyone else planning on attending?


----------



## ALMFamily

So, a little later than I had hoped, but here are my impressions from the GTG!

Let me just say - not a one of these speakers was a bad experience for me. I thought each one was impressive in specific areas and ok in others. I moved around the room to hear from different points. Apologies for not having this done sooner - been a crazy week so far.

[img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8505][/img][img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8518][/img]*Philharmonic IIs*​
Aesthetically speaking, I liked the unique look of these (as well as the Soundscapes) as I tend to get tired of seeing the same ol' rectangle box shape. As far as soundstage, I felt the it was wide with a slight degrade in quality once I got outside about 30 degrees. When I sat in the sweet spot, I closed my eyes for a while and then opened them and tried to focus on Terry's Panasonic to see how well the speakers "disappeared" for me (I did this with all speakers). I struggled to get past the feeling that I could point to which speaker was producing specific sounds - is this what some refer to as imaging? To me, it performed very well on orchestral tracks with an emphasis on horns - probably one of the best in this regard. Vocals - both male and female - sounded good to my untrained ear - the only highs I did not care for were the flute in the one track. However, this was true for every speaker but two for me. One thing I noticed with some of the other speakers I had listened to prior to this GTG was that vocals were overpowered by the instruments - this was not the case with the Phils - the vocals were very prominent. This was my 5th favorite of the day, but so close to another that I had them interchangeable.




[img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8508][/img][img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8507][/img]
*Salk Songtowers*​
Aesthetically, the finish on Nuance's speakers was quite impressive. I am leaning toward a black finish as mine will be in a dedicated HT, but if I was doing a living room, I would love to get this finish. These had a nice wide soundstage with a slight degradation in the soundfield again outside of 30 degrees with no degradation when I was standing behind the sweet spot. I felt they imaged pretty well but just felt that they were overmatched for the space they were trying to fill as they just did not seem to have a lot of pop. Orchestral tracks were very triumphant with crisp horns; however, the flute sounded very distorted to me. Vocals were not overpowered at all. I felt vocal dynamics were handled incredibly well until it hit higher female notes where I felt there was some distortion - much like with the flute. This was my 6th favorite speaker of the day yet was so close to the Phils that I would make them interchangeable.








[img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8509][/img][img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8520][/img]
*Ascend Sierra Towers*​
These had the high gloss black finish on them - very nice finish and more than likely the finish I will be doing in whichever speaker I choose - provided it is available of course.  The soundstage was very wide with no degradtion standing and a slight degradation when I got to about 40 degrees. These disappeared completely for me and I was able to focus in on Terry's TV without issue with a nice, enveloping sound. Orchestral tracks were handled really well - I liked that I could almost "point" to where each section was - with very crisp horns. The flute came across OK - it distorted for me on the highest notes. These were the 1st speaker that I really enjoyed the symbols on the Hells Bells track. Vocals were not overpowered at all and I felt vocal dynamics were handled really well. All in all, I felt they had a very natural sound with this room size probably being right at their limit. These were my 3rd favorite speaker of the day. They were very close to the Seatons for me with a slight edge to the Ascends.





[img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8510][/img][img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8521][/img]
*JTR Triple 12 HTs*​
Aesthetically, these had a nice flat black finish but the 3 same-size driver cavaties did not jump out for me. These were the first set of speakers where I did not notice a degradation in the soundstage off axis or standing up, but I also did not feel they disappeared as effectively or had an enveloping sound. The soundstage did feel forward and slightly fatiguing - this was the first of two speakers that I could tell I was getting tired toward the end of the audition. Orchestral tracks played really well - horns were crisp and the flute came across better than all but two other speakers. The Hells Bells symbol was very clean - I felt it was slightly better than the Ascends. This was the first speaker I was really impressed with how the piano sounded - I just felt I could hear the stroke of the key. I felt the same about the guitar - Rubina came across very well. Vocals were not overpowered, but there were a few instrumental notes that I did feel were (noticed this mostly during Red Rain track). Male vocal dynamics were handled well - the female vocals were where I really noticed the fatigue factor as they were just a bit overwhelming. Once all the speakers were auditioned and we set these up with Terry's subs, I felt that if I were looking for a speaker that I used for 100% HT, this speaker would perform very well. This was my 7th favorite speaker of the day. Note - Jeff's shop is very close to where I live so I am going to see if I can get there to give these a listen with his setup.




[img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8511][/img][img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8516][/img]
*Salk HT2s*​
Aesthetically, I really liked the look of these - they had a very nice black finish and had a bit more shape than your standard box. The soundstage was very wide with no degradation off axis or standing and was the first speaker that did not feel forward. These also disappeared completely - I remember actually thinking this was the 1st speaker that disappeared with eyes closed and open. The sound was very enveloping and was not fatiguing at all. This was the 1st speaker that I felt the bass performed well - mids had good punch and low end did not feel muddy. Orchestral tracks were extremely impressive - crisp, natural-sounding horns, nice, clear flute and piano - this was the first speaker I just sat back and smiled on they were so good here. Sound subtleties and vocals were not overpowered at all and were very detailed. Male and female vocals sounded very smooth. At about the 7th or 8th track, I wrote "so far, this is the one" at the bottom of the page - they just sounded that good to me. This was my 2nd favorite speaker of the day.




*Seaton Catalyst*​[img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8512][/img][img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8523][/img]

The black ash finish on this speaker was well done, but as with the JTRs, they did not have a wow factor for me. The soundstage was nice and wide with no degradation standing and slight degradation outside 30 degrees. They disappeared well (although not quite as well as the HT2s) and had a very enveloping sound. They did seem a bit forward to me - this was the other speaker that I could tell I was getting fatigued toward the end. Now, in both cases this may have been due to the SPL - they just seemed so much louder than the others. These are designed to, when shipped, go to about 50 hz but can be adjusted for lower extension and get to 20 Hz anechoic. Orchestral tracks were great - horns sounded incredible with the piano and flute sounding clean as well. The symbols in Hells Bells were very crisp as well. This was the another speaker that stood out for me in bass - most especially in the low end. Sound subtleties and vocals were incredibly detailed - I thought both male and female vocals were a treat. All in all, I think this is a great speaker - but, for my use, I had a concern about fatigue and am not sure I have need of the LFE you can get from this speaker. The guys had just set this up with Terry's subs as I was leaving so I cannot comment on how they did in that setting. This was my 4th favorite - I actually had it above the Ascends as far as performance, but at almost 3 times the price, I did not feel I was getting 3 times the speaker so I had those two almost interchangeable.



[img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8513][/img][img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8524][/img]
*Salk Soundscape 10s*​
The finish on this speaker was exquisite and I personally like the unique design - I would have loved to see these in a high gloss black finish. Now, right off, I pretty much spent most of this audition near the right speaker with a small amount of time in the sweet spot so I did not hear the issue that Jonathon did. I will just say right now - if I could afford these, these would be my speakers. The soundstage was amazing - wide, no degradation, absolutely no fatigue at all. I felt the bass was the cleanest of the day by far even though they do not dig as deep as the Catalysts. Orchestral tracks were incredible - so triumpant while maintaining a mellow sound. Sound subtleties and vocals were so detailed and dynamic capability was the best of the day. The best way to describe them - they were just smooth as butter. There was not a thing I did not like - except the price.  This was my favorite speaker.

[img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8503][/img][img]http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=8502][/img]















Again, I want to stress - these were all really good speakers and I felt none was a bad experience. But, at the end of the day you gotta rank em  so, for me, my "pecking" order was:

1. Salk Soundscape 10s
2. Salk HT2s
3a. Ascend Sierra Towers
3b. Seaton Catalyst
4a. Philharmonic IIs
4b. Salk Songtowers
5. JTR Triples (this may change after I arrange for that demo)

Let the comments begin!


----------



## zieglj01

^^^^
Nice review - and thanks for the pictures.


----------



## Nuance

zieglj01 said:


> ^^^^
> Nice review - and thanks for the pictures.


+1! Thanks, ALMFamily!

It should be noted that Terry's left monoblock amplifier was found to have a bad transistor and was determined to be the cause of the distortion heard in all of the speakers (except the two high sensitivity ones, since they were a much easier load on the amp(s)). I'm bummed to learn this was the cause of the distortion, but it does make sense that the speakers in order of lowest to highest sensitivity and impedance were the ones that revealed the flaw the most. Jim Salk checked out the drivers on the SoundScape's and none were damaged, nor was he able to reproduce the distortion while listening at higher SPL levels using the same source material. The GTG was still worth it, though, and meeting everyone was better than any speaker. 

The snafu as the GTG has motivated me even more to replace my amplifier, just in case. I attempted to reproduce the distortion problems from the GTG in my room using the same listening levels and songs and running my speakers in full range, but I heard no such thing, even with my less powerful amp. Regardless, I'm still going to buy a new amp for peace of mind. I also cross over to subwoofers, so it's of less importance I suppose.

Again, a special thanks to all of those that attended, and especially ALMFamily for making the drive. He was a pleasure to meet and chat with, and it was obvious he is serious about this hobby (watching him while he listened to all the speakers was cool; he was very focused and really enjoyed himself). Also, thanks for all the excellent pictures!


----------



## Jungle Jack

I think we might need to change the title of this Thread to "One Newb's Odyssey to find his "perfect" speaker". I have huge respect to just how much research and time that you have put into finding the speakers that most fulfill your wishes.


----------



## GranteedEV

"The Audiossey" :clap:


----------



## Jungle Jack

On that thought, Martin Logan Odysseys are true classics. They are one model below the $10,000 Prodigy that was the flagship before the Summits and was the last Series with Founder Gayle Sanders running the show. The Odyssey is absolutely gigantic compared to the $4000 more expensive current Summit X and they sound fantastic. Provided there is sufficient amplification to drive them, they are amazing. Sonnie actually went from the current generation Spires to the Prodigy in his amazing HT and seems to prefer the Prodigies.


----------



## ALMFamily

I really do need to listen to at least one set of Martin Logans at some point. Also, I need to get my Google doc updated with my opinions on the GTG speakers - will try to get that done in the next couple days.

Thanks guys - I really would like these first speakers to last me a while, so I am trying to make as informed a choice as I can.


----------



## showcattleguy

Have you had a chance to listen to the CM9s? They may surprise you.
On a side note did you ever start an investing thread somewhere I have been super busy with work recently and am just now getting caught up with your thread


----------



## ALMFamily

No on both counts unfortunately - I have not a chance to get back to University Audio for the CM9s. As far as the investing thread, I decided I better wait a bit since I have a few things going on atm - I just started coaching my son's baseball team as well so spare time is getting a bit thin......


----------



## ALMFamily

The Google doc from the first post has now been updated!


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
While I do like the CM Series, I think some of the myriad Speakers you have looked at are even better. An older B&W 800 Series would be my preference for B&W, I again think Thiel, Focal, Dynaudio, Martin Logan, and Magneplanar are all great. As is the PSB Synchrony Series and the Revel Performa Series.
J


----------



## ALMFamily

What a great month to be living in WI - just found out that Rick Craig from Selah Audio will be stopping here for an audition after he leaves AKFest - I am fortunate enough to be able to attend! I will post pictures and impressions......


----------



## magi44ken

ALMFamily said:


> What a great month to be living in WI - just found out that Rick Craig from Selah Audio will be stopping here for an audition after he leaves AKFest - I am fortunate enough to be able to attend! I will post pictures and impressions......


That's awsome... So far you have listen to Salk, Philharmonic, and Ascend Sierra Tower from GTG. And soon you will be listening to Selah's speakers. wooohooo:boxer: These are some of best ID speakers out there. It would be even better if you can also audition Vapor Audio Breeze or Cirrus. They are attending the AKFest also.


----------



## Jungle Jack

I think we might want to sponsor a Documentary Crew for this Expedition for the "Perfect" Speaker. I truly am impressed as I do not know of a more through search and a Thread that has garnered this much interest. I too think it is wonderful you were also able to audition the aforementioned brands. Also, Ken welcome to HTS.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Warpdrv

ALMFamily said:


> What a great month to be living in WI - just found out that Rick Craig from Selah Audio will be stopping here for an audition after he leaves AKFest - I am fortunate enough to be able to attend! I will post pictures and impressions......


I'm reconsidering letting you in.... Your having too much fun here and we have to put that to rest I'm thinkin.... :nono: 
Looking forward to next week... 

Nice Theater build here my friend... 

BTW - Your in for a treat - if you haven't seen this... Click on my link below


----------



## tonyvdb

Jungle Jack said:


> I think we might want to sponsor a Documentary Crew for this Expedition for the "Perfect" Speaker. I truly am impressed as I do not know of a more through search and a Thread that has garnered this much interest.
> Cheers,
> JJ


The movie rights are being processed as we speak


----------



## ALMFamily

magi44ken said:


> That's awsome... So far you have listen to Salk, Philharmonic, and Ascend Sierra Tower from GTG. And soon you will be listening to Selah's speakers. wooohooo:boxer: These are some of best ID speakers out there. It would be even better if you can also audition Vapor Audio Breeze or Cirrus. They are attending the AKFest also.


I really have been fortunate to be able to hear all these - it really is too bad that Ryan from Vapor could not make the WI GTG as it would have ben a great opportunity to hear the Cirrus speakers.



Jungle Jack said:


> I think we might want to sponsor a Documentary Crew for this Expedition for the "Perfect" Speaker. I truly am impressed as I do not know of a more through search and a Thread that has garnered this much interest. I too think it is wonderful you were also able to audition the aforementioned brands. Also, Ken welcome to HTS.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Quite funny - as soon as I read this, it reminded me of the movie _Along Came Polly_ where Phillip Seymour Hoffman hired a crew to do a biography on himself. :rofl: My wife thinks I am nuts - she keeps telling me I should just make a decision already. 



Warpdrv said:


> I'm reconsidering letting you in.... Your having too much fun here and we have to put that to rest I'm thinkin.... :nono:
> Looking forward to next week...
> 
> Nice Theater build here my friend...
> 
> BTW - Your in for a treat - if you haven't seen this... Click on my link below


Oh WOW! :yikes: That is quite impressive Patrick - no wonder Brandon told me I better bring earplugs! Those look amazing - can't wait to see them in person.



tonyvdb said:


> The movie rights are being processed as we speak


As long as I get royalties..... :bigsmile:

Showcattleguy - I will try to get over to give those B&W's a go in the next week so I can post impression of those as well.


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## tonyvdb

ALMFamily said:


> I
> Quite funny - as soon as I read this, it reminded me of the movie _Along Came Polly_ where Phillip Seymour Hoffman hired a crew to do a biography on himself. :rofl: My wife thinks I am nuts - she keeps telling me I should just make a decision already.


I think a lot of us here at the Shack think you should make up your mind already too lddude:Im not getting any younger LOL


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## ALMFamily

tonyvdb said:


> I think a lot of us here at the Shack think you should make up your mind already too lddude:Im not getting any younger LOL


LOL - I promise to have speakers picked before the room is done! :bigsmile:


----------



## Warpdrv

ALMFamily said:


> Oh WOW! :yikes: That is quite impressive Patrick - no wonder Brandon told me I better bring earplugs! Those look amazing - can't wait to see them in person.


Hehehh They were a fun project and will stay with me for many many years... 

My only problem is the Paradigm Sig S8's can't keep up with them, although they are beautiful and sound great, I may be making a move to Seaton Catalysts when the new towers are finished... Mark is going to bring me a set to try and see how I like them... 

Looking forward to meeting you sir... 



tonyvdb said:


> I think a lot of us here at the Shack think you should make up your mind already too lddude:Im not getting any younger LOL


LOL.....

I think he's doing it right.... he's still a ways off from having his theater room done, so I'll bet his timing becomes perfect in that respect...


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## ALMFamily

I wish I could have stayed longer to hear the Seatons set-up with Terry's subs - from the impressions that I read on the other forum, they really did well.


----------



## Warpdrv

ALMFamily said:


> I wish I could have stayed longer to hear the Seatons set-up with Terry's subs - from the impressions that I read on the other forum, they really did well.


I have heard the Cat's before and on music they were pretty smooth - I liked them quite a bit, I really need to get some more chair time in with them to get a better feel for them.... But for HT, I was completely blown away - one of the most amazing things I'd experienced was the Gun Fight Scene from "Open Range".... I felt like I got punched in the whole body by an explosion and the SQ was crystal clear in doing so.... Simply Mind Blowing.... 

They had them cranked so loud - it hurt, not cool... but it was also a medium sized closed room and impact was scary.... I like playing loud from time to time but that was too much even for me... My room is gynormous, open to everywhere - and is difficult to pressurize - which is why I went in the direction I did with my subs, now I got to get my speakers to catch up.... Ugh...


----------



## tonyvdb

Warpdrv said:


> LOL.....
> 
> I think he's doing it right.... he's still a ways off from having his theater room done, so I'll bet his timing becomes perfect in that respect...


I do fully agree, when I was shopping for my Main speakers back in 1990 I took weeks of auditioning before I settled on the Mission 765s I still currently use.


----------



## bluemax_1

Hi there, just a quick suggestion on another track you might wish to add to your music audition repertoire/list:
http://www.amazon.com/Sheffield-Drum-Track-Disc-Master/dp/B003JG93DC
Track 1 off that disc, Jim Keltner's improv on the drum kit is one of my must have's for speaker auditioning. I usually couple it with Track 2 as well to note the differences, but Track 1 is definitely my go to track for dynamics.

Yes, the price is a little on the high side for a CD, but it tests the attack and dynamics of a speaker/sound system like little else out there will. You've got material to check out the midrange and vocals (and that's crucial to me too, as I especially love the sound of female vocals), this track will test other aspects of the acoustic reproduction.

Simply put, on properly set up systems, this track sounds like a live drummer in front of you. It starts off with a little light cymbal work and you can pay attention to how clear the 'tings' sound, then the track moves through snare drums, toms, kick drums, Zildjian and Sabian cymbals and you can listen for the shimmer and the difference between the shimmer of the different cymbals. Jim also switches from sticks, to brushes, and mallets and you should clearly hear the differences.

The kick drums should have visceral impact and the other thing about the track is that good speakers will soundstage the whole kit. You should be able to distinctly place the cymbals, the different drums and toms and such with your eyes closed and you'll hear him play across the field from left to right and back again, even as he plays rimshots too.

Lesser setups won't be able to play the track loud as the transients in this track will cause those systems to distort and clip. You'll be able to hear how fast the attack is on speakers/setup, because lesser systems will be muddy, and the simple gauge is: does it sound like a live drummer in front of you? That part is easy for me as I had a college room mate who was a drummer and had his drum kit set up in the living room (I used to play around on them once in a while too, but never actually played in a band).

Although a system for music is a little more critical in refinement, it also depends on the kind of music one tends to listen to. Some setups are refined for certain types of music and have better detail, but are more 'polite' and may not keep up as well with the aggressive dynamics of HT or other types of music as they're just incapable of playing loud enough to handle the transient spikes with ease. A system that can handle the dynamics of the percussion in this track at volume will also handle the dynamics of that part of the HT experience with aplomb.

Cheers and good luck on the search/quest.


Max


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks Max!

You know, one of the holes I thought I had in my list was a great percussion track. The only real one I have is the Blue Man Group track and it is not what I would consider true percussion instruments. Thanks for a great suggestion!


----------



## kadijk

I found that track on iTunes...I'm still not sure on the quality difference between CDs and iPods(and I certainly don't want to hijack this odyssey of yours), but it's $.99 and the cd is $6 ish.


----------



## ALMFamily

True - the price difference is pretty substantial. I did go ahead and make the plunge - I have noticed a difference in quality between the two formats (at least I think I hear one ) and I really have just begun to learn how to listen critically. I really did not have a great percussion track and this really filled a hole for me. I just wish I could have got it here before Monday for the Selah audition!


----------



## bluemax_1

ALMFamily said:


> True - the price difference is pretty substantial. I did go ahead and make the plunge - I have noticed a difference in quality between the two formats (at least I think I hear one ) and I really have just begun to learn how to listen critically. I really did not have a great percussion track and this really filled a hole for me. I just wish I could have got it here before Monday for the Selah audition!


That's one of the beautiful things about being an Amazon Prime member: $3.99 1-day shipping and Free 2-day shipping.

BTW, a little off-topic, but aside from paying the $6x.xx for the Prime membership from Amazon (great for folks who regularly purchase items from them) I heard of another way to get Prime membership. Not sure if it still works, but a friend told me that if you order more than $6x.xx worth of baby food/products, Amazon provided Prime membership free. He didn't have any kids, so he bought the stuff (at lower prices than most retail stores) for his friends with kids, LOL!

Biggest savings for me from Prime membership, free shipping for my second pair of Boston Acoustics E100 speakers from Amazon (great sounding speakers BTW! But unfortunately discontinued. Too expensive to make, and at $2500 EACH, they didn't sell well for BA, but I think they might be the best speakers BA has ever made). With the boxes measuring 77"x13"x13" and weighing over 100lbs, shipping for those would have cost a fortune.

If you could ever find a pair of those, you might consider auditioning them too. They pop up on audiogon or Craigslist once in a while at much lower than MSRP. Powered by the Emotiva XPA-1 500 watt monoblock amps I'm using, these puppies really sing. They're a fairy easy load at 89db/w/m sensitivity at 8 ohms, but providing them ample wattage REALLY makes them shine, and boy can they thump with the monoblocks!

I like 'em so much, I have a 7.1 set in the Black Walnut finish (E100's, E70's and E60's) and a 5.1 set in the Cherry finish (E100's and E70's) still new in the box waiting for me to install for 5.1 in the bedroom when I move.


Max


----------



## Jungle Jack

Max,
Those BA's are excellent Speakers. It is simply at that price point, most folks who spend that much on a pair of Speakers do not think of Boston Acoustics. A corollary in the Automotive World is/was the Volkswagen Phaeton which could sticker for over $100,000 with the W12. 

Even though it was made on the same Chassis as the Bentley Continental/Silver Spur and Audi A8 and shared many other components with those vehicles, people (especially in the US) could not imagine spending that kind of money for a VW. The Phaeton also offers Draft Free Climate Control and the most comfortable Seats I have ever sat in. VW could not practically give them away when new. Regardless, you can find a used one at Auto Trader for between 13,000-30,000 Dollars now. While they have remained continuously in production in Europe, the Phaeton is amazingly returning to the US in the next year or so.

Forgive the somewhat off topic analogy, but it is still interesting to see when a company that usually makes more reasonably priced products goes for something more cost is no object and the issues of Brand Perception therein.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## bluemax_1

Jungle Jack said:


> Max,
> Those BA's are excellent Speakers. It is simply at that price point, most folks who spend that much on a pair of Speakers do not think of Boston Acoustics. A corollary in the Automotive World is/was the Volkswagen Phaeton which could sticker for over $100,000 with the W12.
> 
> Even though it was made on the same Chassis as the Bentley Continental/Silver Spur and Audi A8 and shared many other components with those vehicles, people (especially in the US) could not imagine spending that kind of money for a VW. The Phaeton also offers Draft Free Climate Control and the most comfortable Seats I have ever sat in. VW could not practically give them away when new. Regardless, you can find a used one at Auto Trader for between 13,000-30,000 Dollars now. While they have remained continuously in production in Europe, the Phaeton is amazingly returning to the US in the next year or so.
> 
> Forgive the somewhat off topic analogy, but it is still interesting to see when a company that usually makes more reasonably priced products goes for something more cost is no object and the issues of Brand Perception therein.
> Cheers,
> JJ


That's a great analogy. Sad really, as it means folks end up missing out on a great product simply because they have a preconceived bias against it.


Max


----------



## ALMFamily

I stole this from Warpdrv's post on the other forum - it's the Selah array speaker we get to audition tomorrow!


----------



## Warpdrv

Weird thing about those - is the first few pics don't really give an idea of their size, they are tiny...

3ft tall at best.... I'm not betting they will do a huge job in pressurizing my room - hehehehe

But I am interested in the characteristics in dispersion...


----------



## ALMFamily

A really fun night - after attending the SE WI GTG a couple weeks ago and this one last night, I must say that there are some really great people who love this hobby. That is what has really stood out for me the most. Thanks again to Warpdrv for opening up his beautiful home - everyone should have a chance to hear his living room system. :yikes: 

There were a couple different speakers I had a chance to listen to at the GTG so I am going to break them apart into separate posts so I am not up too late. 

The first: The new offering from Rick Craig at Selah Audio (have not been named as of yet)





































First off, I really liked the unique look of these speakers - definitely not your standard box! The finish on them was very well done as well - Rick stated that he has a local cabinetmaker that does the finishing. I did not play any of my standard audition tracks, but what struck my right off about these was the dispersion. I have not heard any line arrays before so I don't have a real good point of reference, but the size of the soundfield was astounding. The last picture I took was actually near the top of Warpdrv's staircase and there was no noticeable degradation in the soundfield. It was fairly wide as well - I was about 45 degrees off axis before I could detect just a slight decline in the sound. As far as their ability to disappear, I was having problems trying to focus on a point in space (as I would for a TV/screen) as I kept noticing all the drivers - that would take some getting used to IMO. That said, they imaged very well once I closed my eyes and were very detailed - both male and female vocals were clear with no distortion. The mids were very crisp as well and I felt rolled off well. I am not sure how loud we got, but I can say that I had to raise my voice to talk to the person sitting next to me at one point so I am certain they could handle more.

All in all - a really great speaker. Not quite as captivating as the Soundscapes for me personally, so in that price range I would go with the Salks, but kudos to Rick for building a great sounding speaker with a large soundfield.

Current MSRP is $12.5k, but IIRC Rick has an introductory price of $10.5k atm. I will be updating my living document with impressions and specs (when specs are posted to his site).


----------



## Gregr

I'm surprised you have no comment or a response to the Duel 18" LMS's "The XLERATORS" in the listening room with you. I see one of them in your bottom photo. These are two of the finest Subwoofers I've seen anywhere. If I had a need and a bigger room I would definately build something like that. Maybe I will make a pair of cabinets to put my Focal subs into. With some mod I could get them to reach lower by a few Hz's. Hmmm I'd never thought of that potential. I'm going to look into this.
The reason I am writing again @ 1:48am is in looking through your speaker list I noticed you have essentially given up on Martin Logan. If you go to Audio Advisor.com you could find the answer to your HT Audio. In-Wall, On-Wall, Big Electrostatics right up front. I have a friend who has filled me with electrostatic propaganda but I've found some of this to be true. Like, a huge soundstage image with each instrument in place. Large electrostatics fill a large room with sound like nothing else. When playing a live and well recorded disc (it can happen) it is easy to imagine you are there like nothing else I have heard. He once said electrostatics are the future and in 10years you will not be able to find the simple cone driver. 
Talk with JJ about his system I think its Jungle Jack that has the Martin Logan setup. If you are not going to go with Focal, Dynaudio, or B&W then try ML at least.:bigsmile:



​


----------



## ALMFamily

I am actually planning on a separate post for the Xcelerators - stay tuned. 

I actually still plan to listen to the CM9s - I just have been hard pressed for time lately since baseball started for my sons and I am coaching this year. As far as the MLs, I would like to give a set an audition - I just need to find somewhere I can do that. My local shop only has one set (unfortunately I can't remember which ones) and I got the feeling from talking to the owner that he might not cary MLs any longer. 

TBH, I hve tried to find something within driving distance to be able to audition Focal and Dynaudio (other than the Xcite series), and I cannot seem to find anything.


----------



## ALMFamily

Next up from the Warpdrv GTG - the Xcelerators:










After we listened to the Soundscape 7s with the Funkywaves sub (more to come on that in a later post), I asked Warpdrv if he would not mind firing up his living room system.  Now, he does have the Sig 8s in there which if I were listening to them alone, I would have been impressed as they were not as forward to me as the Studio 100s were, but TBH I think we were all really focused in on the subs. :innocent:

First off, the pictures do not do justice to them - at @3' tall they are truly imposing and the finish on them is very well done. If I did not know better, I would have thought it was some kind of tall end table. As far as the sound, I can honestly say I never thought that you could get a sub to get that loud, yet remain so clean - much less 3! He fired up a couple tracks and then put on a Metallic concert (Live from France IIRC). We were getting the kind of clean bass I would expect from a high end mid - I have to wonder if my jaw was dropped the whole time.

Warpdrv's living room is pretty open, but with those three going, it felt like he actually had buttkickers in the couch - I could feel it in my bones! :bigsmile: And, the real kicker - they never moved at all. He has a lamp on top of one and a vase on the other. You could see a picture moving on the wall, lights moving in the other room, but the lamp and vase never moved an iota - and we were really giving them a good workout. I wish I could have stayed a bit longer as they fired up Open Range and Master and Commander, but it was 10pm and I had to drive 1.5 hours home.

I have thought about doing a DIY sub project once the HT is a bit more in order, and I think I may have just got a good idea of what I would like to do....... I wonder if I could get the same effect using 2 of those LMS subs in a sonotube. :scratch:


----------



## ALMFamily

The last speaker I had a chance to hear - the Soundscape 7s:










Aesthetically, I really liked the finish on this speaker. It also had a bit more depth to it than what I would consider your standard box to have which was nice for a monitor. Interestingly enough, as soon as we started to listen to them, I felt that I could hear the similarity between these and the Soundscape 10s. So, obviously, I loved these. 

Being monitors, they did not have the low end extension that the 10s did, but Warpdrv has a Funkywaves sub in his bedroom set-up (so lucky - my wife would disown me if I did that!) that handled the low end quite beautifully. They imaged incredibly well - they disappeared completely when I did my "eyes closed / focus on tv" test. Vocals - both male and female - were very detailed and dynamics were so clean.

I am set on doing towers for my HT as that appeals to me aesthetically. That said, if I ever get to the point where I would be setting up a 2.1 system specifically for music, these would be at the top of my list - for me personally, the Soundscape "sound" is incredibly engaging (turn of phrase borrowed from Nuance ) and at this point the type of sound I am looking for in my final choice - or as close to it as I can come within my budget.


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## Warpdrv

Fun times there my good man.... 

Hope the long drive was worth it.... its too bad that we waited so long to fire my systems up.... 

Seemed Rick only had one thing on his mind while he was there and that was to peddle his wares.... It was kinda strange to me that He not one time while at my place talked to me about any of my setups... zero interest in anything other then talking about his products.... thats too bad

Anyways, it was a blast, though gtg's at my house tend to get more obnoxious then normal gtg's. Especially when we have some real PERSONALITIES in the mix like my buddies Aaron, and Peter. LOL


----------



## ALMFamily

I had loads of fun Patrick - it was perfect to have a nice laid back GTG where we just shot the breeze and listened to some great speakers..

I kind of got that feeling to - which I suppose is the main reason he was there. He did ask me what speakers I was using which makes me wonder why he did not ask you about your systems with you hosting and all. Well, opportunity lost IMO.......

What I thought was cool is that you could tell Aaron was really into this - when he started talking about your bedroom system, he was really animated and into it. Awesome......


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Due to PM's with Joe, I am now seriously contemplating the Focal Diva Utopia BE's that are available for an absurdly good price at a fairly well known Website. I have been thinking about them the past couple of days and am on the ledge due to just how good of a deal they are. And I have always wanted Utopia Series Focals. Especially when coupled with the Inverted Dome Beryllium Tweeter that is used on Wilson Audio's $150,000 Alexandria's and other Ultra High End Speakers. Compared to the CM Series, the Diva Utopia's are truly in another stratosphere.
Cheers,
JJ


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## ALMFamily

Well, so my "journey" has helped someone else - good to hear! :bigsmile:

If you do pull the trigger Jack, I would definitely like to hear your impressions.


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I have actually listened to them before and was floored. My brother has Focal 1038BE's in his 2 Channel Rig and I have spent hours listening to them as well, but the Utopia's are even better. They retail for $16,000 and are simply beautiful and happen to sound marvelous. Here is a Review from HT Mag from a few years back:http://www.hometheater.com/content/focal-jmlab-diva-utopia-be-surround-speaker-system


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## ALMFamily

Sorry, it was a horrible attempt at humor. I sincerely hope you do go for it, and, if so, look forward to hearing how you like them in your space.


----------



## Jungle Jack

ALMFamily said:


> Sorry, it was a horrible attempt at humor. I sincerely hope you do go for it, and, if so, look forward to hearing how you like them in your space.


No worries. I am on a Posting binge as there is a Thread with a Member debating how whether to use a Custom Installer for everything or purchasing the gear himself. This Thread has taken a good amount of time as it is a $13-15,000 budget.

In all truth, I really hope you get the Diva's as I just do not think you can go wrong with them. I truly understand wanting to listen to them first, but sometimes a leap of faith is needed when you can get an amazing deal. For what the Utopia's are selling for, you could always sell them down the road and possibly break even or worst case lose very little of what you invested. The Revel Ultima Studio is another classic that is almost without fault. Really was the Speaker that put Revel on the map.
All the best,
J


----------



## ALMFamily

Jungle Jack said:


> No worries. I am on a Posting binge as there is a Thread with a Member debating how whether to use a Custom Installer for everything or purchasing the gear himself. This Thread has taken a good amount of time as it is a $13-15,000 budget.
> 
> In all truth, I really hope you get the Diva's as I just do not think you can go wrong with them. I truly understand wanting to listen to them first, but sometimes a leap of faith is needed when you can get an amazing deal. For what the Utopia's are selling for, you could always sell them down the road and possibly break even or worst case lose very little of what you invested. The Revel Ultima Studio is another classic that is almost without fault. Really was the Speaker that put Revel on the map.
> All the best,
> J


I know - I have been following it. I cannot keep up with the posts!

Have you had a chance to hear any of the Soundscape speakers from Jim Salk? I am wondering how those would compare.

On a different note - we are planning on taking the kids to Disney in October. If we could manage it and you are up for it, it sure would be great to get together (sans kids!) while I was down that way.


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## GranteedEV

ALMFamily said:


> Have you had a chance to hear any of the Soundscape speakers from Jim Salk? I am wondering how those would compare.


I still think you need to hear the philharmonics properly functioning. Dennis feels the speakers are extremely alike in everything except deep bass output.


----------



## Warpdrv

ALMFamily said:


> I had loads of fun Patrick - it was perfect to have a nice laid back GTG where we just shot the breeze and listened to some great speakers..
> 
> What I thought was cool is that you could tell Aaron was really into this - when he started talking about your bedroom system, he was really animated and into it. Awesome......


Cool.... some people really just take all this stuff WAY TOO SERIOUSLY, when all it really is supposed to be is a hobby.... Especially the Arm Chair Warriors pointing out all the flaws of the way things were handled and done.... Hell, they'd have a field day with how much booze we put down that night if they really wanted to start lookin at my GTG's... LOL

Yeah Aaron is a hoot.... I met him on Audioholics years back, helped him with integrating his subwoofer with an SMS-1... after I saw his streaming media setup I made a deal with him to just keep the SMS-1 and help me design and build out my Network server and streaming of HD media in my house.... 

Needless to say we hit it off pretty good with both our personalities being off the hook crazy :dumbcrazy::devil::neener::rofl:


----------



## Jungle Jack

ALMFamily said:


> I know - I have been following it. I cannot keep up with the posts!
> 
> Have you had a chance to hear any of the Soundscape speakers from Jim Salk? I am wondering how those would compare.
> 
> On a different note - we are planning on taking the kids to Disney in October. If we could manage it and you are up for it, it sure would be great to get together (sans kids!) while I was down that way.


That would be great. I truly recommend checking out Siesta Key Beach, It was rated the Number 1 Beach in the United States by Dr. Beach and has won countless other awards. Honestly is beautiful around here. My brother with the 1038's lived in Orlando until a few months ago. I wish he was still there as his 2 Channel and 5.1 HT are utterly obscene. He uses Billy Bags Stands for even his Media and his 2 Channel Rig is the Focals, Rogue Audio M-180 Tube Monoblocks, Rogue Audio Preamp, Rockport Turntable, Nordost Valhalla Speaker Cables and Interconnects and a Sony SCD-1. It is close to $100,000 just for his 2 Channel Rig. Punk has yet to work a single day in his life...


----------



## bluemax_1

So have you gotten the Sheffield Labs Drum And Track disc yet? How'd you like Track 1 on it?


Max


----------



## ALMFamily

GranteedEV said:


> I still think you need to hear the philharmonics properly functioning. Dennis feels the speakers are extremely alike in everything except deep bass output.


And, I really don't need the deep bass output. Especially since my 1st attempt at a DIY sub might just be something like those Xcelerators Warpdrv has! I do not remember if it was posted or not, but the Phil IIs at the SE WI GTG had an issue - I believe it was a wire disconnected on the xover, is that right GranteedEV?



Warpdrv said:


> Cool.... some people really just take all this stuff WAY TOO SERIOUSLY, when all it really is supposed to be is a hobby.... Especially the Arm Chair Warriors pointing out all the flaws of the way things were handled and done.... Hell, they'd have a field day with how much booze we put down that night if they really wanted to start lookin at my GTG's... LOL
> 
> Yeah Aaron is a hoot.... I met him on Audioholics years back, helped him with integrating his subwoofer with an SMS-1... after I saw his streaming media setup I made a deal with him to just keep the SMS-1 and help me design and build out my Network server and streaming of HD media in my house....
> 
> Needless to say we hit it off pretty good with both our personalities being off the hook crazy :dumbcrazy::devil::neener::rofl:


I think I just found a source if I ever decide to go with a media server! 



Jungle Jack said:


> That would be great. I truly recommend checking out Siesta Key Beach, It was rated the Number 1 Beach in the United States by Dr. Beach and has won countless other awards. Honestly is beautiful around here. My brother with the 1038's lived in Orlando until a few months ago. I wish he was still there as his 2 Channel and 5.1 HT are utterly obscene. He uses Billy Bags Stands for even his Media and his 2 Channel Rig is the Focals, Rogue Audio M-180 Tube Monoblocks, Rogue Audio Preamp, Rockport Turntable, Nordost Valhalla Speaker Cables and Interconnects and a Sony SCD-1. It is close to $100,000 just for his 2 Channel Rig. Punk has yet to work a single day in his life...


Sounds great Jack - I will PM you when the date gets closer. Sorry, have you heard any of the Soundscape offerings as of yet?

And, that is just crazy. I think I need his "job".


----------



## ALMFamily

bluemax_1 said:


> So have you gotten the Sheffield Labs Drum And Track disc yet? How'd you like Track 1 on it?
> 
> Max


I did! And it was everything you said it was - I had taken it to Warpdrv's house but we did not have a chance to hear it. I am permanently adding it to my audition list. Thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## Warpdrv

ALMFamily said:


> Sounds great Jack - I will PM you when the date gets closer. Sorry, have you heard any of the Soundscape offerings as of yet?
> 
> And, that is just crazy. I think I need his "job".



I second this to the N-th degree... 

I have heard a rediculous amount of high end speakers, although not the Focal Be's but I'm not going to lie - nothing has sounded as good as the Salk SoundScapes... 

Shame, I also didn't get to hear the Phils at their best either, what I heard was nothing like the SS's, but damaged wiring will certainly do that. 

I have to get a copy of that Drum and Track disc... Funny the street I grew up on was Sheffield... LOL


----------



## Warpdrv

BTW Jack.... If you really want to blow your mind, and save your wallet, you really owe it to yourself to have a look at these focals.... http://www.focalprofessional.com/en/sm6-line/

Everything that the Hifi series has + a built in amp for a ridiculously low price... 

I have read a few people that bought these and sat them side by side with the Electra 1000 Be's... 
identical sound...


----------



## Jungle Jack

Warpdrv said:


> BTW Jack.... If you really want to blow your mind, and save your wallet, you really owe it to yourself to have a look at these focals.... http://www.focalprofessional.com/en/sm6-line/
> 
> Everything that the Hifi series has + a built in amp for a ridiculously low price...
> 
> I have read a few people that bought these and sat them side by side with the Electra 1000 Be's...
> identical sound...



My best friend since I was 5 has a pair Focal Studio Active Monitors. He is a Professional Trumpet Player, Owns a Studio, played in a Rock Band with a full Horn Section (Grand Torino), and is proficient at Piano, Guitar, and many other instruments. His Wife's Grandmother spends the Winter on the same Barrier Island I live on so I get to see him 4-5 times a year. He still lives in Knoxville, TN where I grew up. He is one of my major audio sounding boards and vice versa, I turned him on to the TX-SR805 when it was released. In addition, we both purchased Paradigm Monitor 7's on the same day when we were 18 without either of us knowing that the other was planning on it as he attended The University of Tennessee and I attended UGA, He also played in the Pride of the Southland Marching Band which is UT's Band at Football Games.


----------



## Warpdrv

Cool, although I urge you to take the time to listen to some Salk Soundscapes if at all possible, they truly are giant killers.

There is NO ESCAPING the Soundscapes!!


----------



## showcattleguy

Just my .02 but the 5 months we owned a pair of 1038be's I thought they sounded incredible but also I think our 802D's beat them by a mile (I do understand the diamonds are in a different price point) in everything but form-factor. Focal makes some nice looking speakers! My wife also listens a lot more often which to me is the ultimate testament. I probably sound like a broken record and should look for a spokesman deal with B&W but their style of sound is my personal favorite. The diamond tweeter is so... so... spacious and open yet smooth and refined with spot on mids that make you think "that's how I always imagined his/her voice sounded" I have said my peace now and will shut up about B&W.


----------



## GranteedEV

welll......
....To each his own


----------



## ALMFamily

Just a quick update - baseball season has started and I am coaching this year. So, speaker auditions may slow down a tad for a couple months until the season ends. 

Which, is a good thing because I can continue to add more to my budget!


----------



## Nuance

ALMFamily said:


> And, I really don't need the deep bass output. Especially since my 1st attempt at a DIY sub might just be something like those Xcelerators Warpdrv has! I do not remember if it was posted or not, but the Phil IIs at the SE WI GTG had an issue - *I believe it was a wire disconnected on the xover, is that right GranteedEV?*


What happened with the Philharmonic speakers was unfortunate, but it's not like the midrange driver wasn't working at all in one of the speakers; that would not have gone un-noticed by 25 audio enthusiasts, nor did it show up in my measurements. When they first arrived and sounded odd, Terry (TJHUB) put his ear to the drivers to be sure they were all playing, which they were. I can only speculate that the midrange wire was loose, perhaps shorting out occasionally; that would explain the issue we heard. It likely worked its way completely loose during return shipping to Dennis.



Warpdrv said:


> Cool, although I urge you to take the time to listen to some Salk Soundscapes if at all possible, they truly are giant killers.
> 
> There is NO ESCAPING the Soundscapes!!


Agreed. I'm trying desperately to find something better for the money, but I've come up empty handed thus far. The SoundScape's really are giant killers, taking down the likes of Revel, Kef and Dynaudio. I just need to win the lotto to be able to own a pair anytime soon. Joe and I are trying to plan a trip to Pontiac, Michigan to pay Jim Salk and Pete a visit; we're planning on scoring an audition of the SS8's.


----------



## ALMFamily

With baseball and all going on, one thing had to get cut short - and that was keeping this thread up-to-date. 

Over the last couple of weeks, I received a couple of great suggestions for used speakers from MSSHifi. I almost pulled the string on the Diva Utopias a couple different times, but I just kept on coming back to the Soundscapes and how much I thoroughly enjoyed them. 

So, earlier this week, Warpdrv pointed out a listing for used Salk Songtowers (with QWT) with the matching CC for sale by a local seller at a fantastic value. After some thought and a couple questions, I decided to take a look at these with the thought that I could get these used now, get the surrounds that would match up well with these and the Soundscapes, and save the rest of my budget (and add to it over time) to replace the L / C / R with the Soundscapes at a later date.

So, I saw them Saturday. And, since a picture is worth a thousand words:




























I liked them a lot - the finish on them is not black, but is plenty dark enough that I don't think I need to worry about ambient light issues. And, they were just as I remembered them from the GTG - except that since they were trying to fill a much smaller space, they sounded so much cleaner. I stayed up late last night listening to music and watched a couple movies in my thrown-together set-up room and they sounded fantastic - I was especially impressed with the crispness of the mids.

So, is my journey over? Short answer - no. I have enjoyed listening to so many speakers and meeting so many new people that I will probably continue to listen to anything I can and maintain my living Google doc. And, who knows, I may find something else that appeals to me more than the Soundscapes. But, for now, my dedicated HT will open with the Songtowers. The added bonus - since I did not spend my budget on speakers, I can look at a higher end amp in preparation for the Soundscapes.


----------



## Hookedonc4

I just bought a set of inwall James loudspeakers and they sound great.


----------



## tonyvdb

Sweet! I wish i could have a listen they look really good


----------



## ALMFamily

Well, when you win the Chase giveaway, you can just come on down here and give em a listen! :bigsmile:


----------



## phreak

Congratulations on finding something and making a decision that you can be happy with, even if you admit upfront that it isn't permanent. Upgradeitus kicks in early sometimes.


----------



## Hookedonc4

I hooked them up temporary in my main living and they are crazy. I can't wait to get them hooked back up. I have the James power pipe with the M-1000 sub amp hooked up with my Difinitive surround and this Sub is awesome. Again can't wait to get them all together.


----------



## tonyvdb

ALMFamily said:


> Well, when you win the Chase giveaway, you can just come on down here and give em a listen! :bigsmile:


I may just have to do that LOL


----------



## GranteedEV

Congrats on the new Songtowers, Joe.

Do you mind comparing them to the e55tis? :whistling:



> The added bonus - since I did not spend my budget on speakers, I can look at a higher end amp in preparation for the Soundscapes.


I'm not sure there is a higher end amp... don't underestimate the amp you have now. The speakers are truly, maybe 95% or more of what you hear, along with the room. I'd shift that amp budget towards maybe some diffusion panels


----------



## ALMFamily

I will - I will even lug the Emp Teks to the basement and do a side-by-side.


----------



## GranteedEV

ALMFamily said:


> I will - I will even lug the Emp Teks to the basement and do a side-by-side.


Aren't ya glad they only weigh around 50lbs or so? :flex:


----------



## ALMFamily

Yes - yes I am!


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Joe, you had to have attained an HTS record for longest Thread for the discussion of an AV Component. And for that I salute you. Your patience and desire to both learn and get the best possible Speakers was nothing short of astonishing. May the Salk's bring you many, many years of joy.

The Speakers along with the actual Room have the biggest impact on the SQ of your Room. I think things like AVR/Outboard Amplification and Source Components will go far quicker. Also, those are plenty dark in color as not to distract during HT and I personally prefer a Natural Wood Finish for Speakers provided it does not distract. Congrats again.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## ALMFamily

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Joe, you had to have attained an HTS record for longest Thread for the discussion of an AV Component. And for that I salute you. Your patience and desire to both learn and get the best possible Speakers was nothing short of astonishing. May the Salk's bring you many, many years of joy.
> 
> The Speakers along with the actual Room have the biggest impact on the SQ of your Room. I think things like AVR/Outboard Amplification and Source Components will go far quicker. Also, those are plenty dark in color as not to distract during HT and I personally prefer a Natural Wood Finish for Speakers provided it does not distract. Congrats again.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Thanks Jack - I really appreciate all the time you and everyone else spent helping me through this process. I am hoping that this "journey" and my reviews helps others when they start looking for speakers which is why I plan to continue listening to different speakers and maintaining my Google doc - albeit at a slower rate than before. :bigsmile: 

I had thought that when I was ready to move to the Soundscapes, I would sell the Songtowers (and CC) to help fund then Soundscapes. I am probably going to have to talk my wife into allowing me to do a 3 channel bedroom system at some point - so far, I am really enjoying the Songtowers.


----------



## Nuance

ALMFamily said:


> With baseball and all going on, one thing had to get cut short - and that was keeping this thread up-to-date.
> 
> Over the last couple of weeks, I received a couple of great suggestions for used speakers from MSSHifi. I almost pulled the string on the Diva Utopias a couple different times, but I just kept on coming back to the Soundscapes and how much I thoroughly enjoyed them.
> 
> So, earlier this week, Warpdrv pointed out a listing for used Salk Songtowers (with QWT) with the matching CC for sale by a local seller at a fantastic value. After some thought and a couple questions, I decided to take a look at these with the thought that I could get these used now, get the surrounds that would match up well with these and the Soundscapes, and save the rest of my budget (and add to it over time) to replace the L / C / R with the Soundscapes at a later date.
> 
> So, I saw them Saturday. And, since a picture is worth a thousand words:
> 
> I liked them a lot - the finish on them is not black, but is plenty dark enough that I don't think I need to worry about ambient light issues. And, they were just as I remembered them from the GTG - except that since they were trying to fill a much smaller space, they sounded so much cleaner. I stayed up late last night listening to music and watched a couple movies in my thrown-together set-up room and they sounded fantastic - I was especially impressed with the crispness of the mids.
> 
> So, is my journey over? Short answer - no. I have enjoyed listening to so many speakers and meeting so many new people that I will probably continue to listen to anything I can and maintain my living Google doc. And, who knows, I may find something else that appeals to me more than the Soundscapes. But, for now, my dedicated HT will open with the Songtowers. The added bonus - since I did not spend my budget on speakers, I can look at a higher end amp in preparation for the Soundscapes.


Congratulations, Joe, and welcome to the Salk family. I am very excited for you, and I am sorry I couldn't make the trip with you (such a busy day Saturday was...). The Salk's look great in your home! How cool that both our "journey" threads ended with Salk speakers. It seems we both plan to upgrade to SoundScapes in the future too.:T


----------



## Warpdrv

Oh Snap.... Nice catch.... I'm glad you pulled the trigger on them, as I knew you liked the way they sounded at the GTG.... And I couldn't imagine they would have sat long at the price you got them - WOW... 

I'm out in vegas this week - listening to the sweet sound of gun shots going off all day for 5 days... !!! 
Finished the first day of a 5 day Tactical training coarse today... AWESOME !!! Was super fun 
Well need some rest, 11 hours in the hot sun today and lots more of that to come... 

Salute !!


----------



## ryansboston

I've been completely silent on this thread (As well as most threads and forums) but I have definitely enjoyed following it. Congratulations on your journey! And thanks for sharing!!


----------



## Gregr

Well I have to comment as well. Joe I have enjoyed reading about your searches and discoveries. You've added new words to my audio vocabulary like Salk and Soundscapes. I'm glad you decided to embark on this journey, glad to see also you intend to continue the trek and if you do alot of work quick maybe even a "_ _ _ _" I don't dare write out the name that bit of meta-data could inspire somebody in ahead of you. This could sell, in the right hands.

I can't believe some would have wanted an answer months ago, you had barely begun. Great idea for a blog, but you run the risk of loosing control of topics very quickly but you could readily establish yourself/name. Could be much at stake if...

Anyway, thanks for putting it out there. I think you've hit a popular price point and topic. I don't know what you got for a price on the Salks but it must have been generous since you passed up a pair of Diva's @ 6K and I am sure there is flexibility in that 6K price tag as well.

Happy listening...


----------



## ALMFamily

ryansboston said:


> I've been completely silent on this thread (As well as most threads and forums) but I have definitely enjoyed following it. Congratulations on your journey! And thanks for sharing!!





Gregr said:


> Well I have to comment as well. Joe I have enjoyed reading about your searches and discoveries. You've added new words to my audio vocabulary like Salk and Soundscapes. I'm glad you decided to embark on this journey, glad to see also you intend to continue the trek and if you do alot of work quick maybe even a "_ _ _ _" I don't dare write out the name that bit of meta-data could inspire somebody in ahead of you. This could sell, in the right hands.
> 
> I can't believe some would have wanted an answer months ago, you had barely begun. Great idea for a blog, but you run the risk of loosing control of topics very quickly but you could readily establish yourself/name. Could be much at stake if...
> 
> Anyway, thanks for putting it out there. I think you've hit a popular price point and topic. I don't know what you got for a price on the Salks but it must have been generous since you passed up a pair of Diva's @ 6K and I am sure there is flexibility in that 6K price tag as well.
> 
> Happy listening...


Thanks guys - and thanks for following along!


----------



## ALMFamily

Now that I have a plan for speakers, I am looking for opinions on an amp to drive the L / R. Yes - I am hijacking my own thread - bwahahahaha! The amp will be powering a pair of Soundscapes in the future and the Songtowers for right now.

I have had a number of great suggestions so far:

Aragon 4004 MKII
Aragon 8008bb
Parasound HCA-3500
Acurus A250
Bryston 4B-ST (or later models)

Anyone have any other suggestions? I am really looking for something that will have lots of headroom and good, clean amplification. I will most likely be looking for a used amp, so if you have a suggestion for a good price point, I would love to hear that as well.

Thanks all for your continued input and assistance!

Joe


----------



## Jungle Jack

I went Shopping for you, check your PM's. Feel free to Cut and Paste the last PM I sent you if you want to discuss the various Amplifiers with everyone here.
J


----------



## Gregr

Hold onto your hat, I'll try to keep this thing on the road but here goes. 

There is an audio amp made by Audio Note that is completely hand wired with 99.999% pure silver wire and the caps are hand rolled oil in foil I do not remember the name- it sounds something like "Aengiiku" Last I knew it was $450-500K.

There is another and their $2,000 entry level is what I believe everybody needs to experience before going on to anything else. Krell has a long Hx and a broad range of pre/pro's and amps. Each one is a winner make a decision on what you need and jump. My choice on where to look is M_ _ _ _ _i..., I do not buy without checking here first. 

Of course there are many many other amps to choose from. There are tube, solid state and hybrid amps. I am sticking with solid state even digital maybe even a 400x......


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks Greg - I had forgotten that the place you mentioned has more than speakers....


----------



## GranteedEV

ALMFamily said:


> Now that I have a plan for speakers, I am looking for opinions on an amp to drive the L / R. Yes - I am hijacking my own thread - bwahahahaha! The amp will be powering a pair of Soundscapes in the future and the Songtowers for right now.
> 
> I have had a number of great suggestions so far:
> 
> Aragon 4004 MKII
> Aragon 8008bb
> Parasound HCA-3500
> Acurus A250
> Bryston 4B-ST (or later models)
> 
> Anyone have any other suggestions? I am really looking for something that will have lots of headroom and good, clean amplification. I will most likely be looking for a used amp, so if you have a suggestion for a good price point, I would love to hear that as well.
> 
> Thanks all for your continued input and assistance!
> 
> Joe


Well if you're going for a high end amp, get some Hypex Ncore. It doesn't get any better IMO


----------



## Nuance

What's your budget, Joe?


----------



## ALMFamily

Looking at $1000 or less if I can manage it - probably could swing a tad more if I found a great unit.


----------



## TypeA

GranteedEV said:


> Well if you're going for a high end amp, get some Hypex Ncore. It doesn't get any better IMO


Very usual suggestion and Google reveals nothing, got a link?


----------



## ALMFamily

Here you go Ty - http://www.hypex.nl/.


----------



## Nuance

Parasound
ATI
Wyred4Sound
AVA

You could also go with a pro amp too. Some folks really stand behind them.


----------



## ALMFamily

I believe I have found my amps - more to come..........


----------



## needspeed52

GranteedEV said:


> Well if you're going for a high end amp, get some Hypex Ncore. It doesn't get any better IMO


Second that.....


----------



## Jungle Jack

ALMFamily said:


> I believe I have found my amps - more to come..........


Hello,
If the "more to come" is what I think it is, all I can say is I truly believe it to be one of the finest Amplifiers ever made that costs less than a new Lexus.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## kadijk

Joe, I know you might be done auditioning speakers for a while, but I had to pass on to you one more track that makes an amazing mid to full range test (IMHO). I had forgotten about this CD but just recently "rediscovered" it in my library. Look for Damien Rice "live at the union chapel", and try the track "volcano". It's a really interesting mix of almost percussive acoustic guitar, cello, and male and female vocals. It's a live recording, but without the bad things of live recordings(so its done well I think). There is one part near the end though, at the "climax" of the song, where they let the mics distort...I'm not sure if it's on purpose or if the intensity of the performance took the engineers by surprise, so don't be alarmed. And crank it up...although its not the kind of song one can listen to over and over. It's a bit intense for that. Enjoy!


----------



## ALMFamily

kadijk said:


> Joe, I know you might be done auditioning speakers for a while, but I had to pass on to you one more track that makes an amazing mid to full range test (IMHO). I had forgotten about this CD but just recently "rediscovered" it in my library. Look for Damien Rice "live at the union chapel", and try the track "volcano". It's a really interesting mix of almost percussive acoustic guitar, cello, and male and female vocals. It's a live recording, but without the bad things of live recordings(so its done well I think). There is one part near the end though, at the "climax" of the song, where they let the mics distort...I'm not sure if it's on purpose or if the intensity of the performance took the engineers by surprise, so don't be alarmed. And crank it up...although its not the kind of song one can listen to over and over. It's a bit intense for that. Enjoy!


Thanks - I will check it out!


----------



## ALMFamily

So, after my little teaser post a few days ago (or more), I have finally got an update!

I purchased 2 used Aragon Palladium monoblock amps. After a bunch of reading and wonderful input, I had settled on either going with an Aragon or Parasound amp. One week later, these were posted on Audiogon and I jumped on them.















































The XLR-RCA cables have not arrived yet to be able to hook them up. I will post impressions once I have them.


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
This is the first time I have ever written this on this or any AV Forum, but Joe I now have Amplifier envy. Those are simply some of the finest Monoblocks ever made and can literally drive any Speaker on the market.
The new Indy Audio Labs version which are identical cost $7000 for the pair. A huge congratulations as you really have some amazing Amplifiers and Speakers.
Cheers,
J


----------



## needspeed52

Joe, you don't half step, I'm really happy for you my friend, you're journey has been incredible. thanks for sharing.
Jeff


----------



## JBrax

Joe, those are some really sweet amps. I think you'll be very pleased. You got ya some serious power.


----------



## ALMFamily

needspeed52 said:


> Joe, you don't half step, I'm really happy for you my friend, you're journey has been incredible. thanks for sharing.
> Jeff





JBrax said:


> Joe, those are some really sweet amps. I think you'll be very pleased. You got ya some serious power.


Thanks guys! I am really looking forward to getting the cables and getting them set-up.


----------



## GranteedEV

Joe, when they say big amps need big heatsinks, that _doesn't_ mean you need to put them next to the kitchen sink 

They certainly look _reallly_ cool. :T


----------



## tesseract

Oh man, I have lusted after the Palladium monoblocs since day one, good score!


----------



## ALMFamily

GranteedEV said:


> Joe, when they say big amps need big heatsinks, that _doesn't_ mean you need to put them next to the kitchen sink
> 
> They certainly look _reallly_ cool. :T


Too funny! I tried to pick them up from them table, but they are 70 lbs a piece so I figured I better not put them too low or this old guy would never get them back up! lddude:



tesseract said:


> Oh man, I have lusted after the Palladium monoblocs since day one, good score!


Thanks!


----------



## Gregr

WOW!!! I'm speechless. MonoBlocks were the last class of amp I expected you were looking for..., you must have got these for a dance. 

Or are these a Dan D'Agostino (from Krell) design and parts purchase. Do the transistors have Mondail or Aragon printed on the metal transistor case and so prior to Klipsch take over.

These are about a light-year in improvements on the Acurus amps which are supposed to be very nice amps. Acurus has a very nice reputation for sound and quality and Aragon was closer to the reference class for Mondail. 

They are beautiful and if they sound as impressive as they look..., WOW!!!


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> WOW!!! I'm speechless. MonoBlocks were the last class of amp I expected you were looking for..., you must have got these for a dance.
> 
> Or are these a Dan D'Agostino (from Krell) design and parts purchase. Do the transistors have Mondail or Aragon printed on the metal transistor case and so prior to Klipsch take over.
> 
> These are about a light-year in improvements on the Acurus amps which are supposed to be very nice amps. Acurus has a very nice reputation for sound and quality and Aragon was closer to the reference class for Mondail.
> 
> They are beautiful and if they sound as impressive as they look..., WOW!!!


Yup - these are prior to the Klipsch take-over. Just finished hooking them up now as I got my cables in today - good news is that everything is working after a quick test run - hope to get a bit more time later tonight to take them for a test drive.


----------



## Gregr

I forgot to ask about your cables? What did you decide to start out with? you can PM if you... You'll notice nobody offered advice on cables and except for my curiosity nobody even asked you for your thoughts on the topic.

I will admit it is one topic with lots of baggage. All I've got to say is it must have been one hellatious raucous growing pain here at HTS that put cables discussions off limits. 

In any case your cables need to acclimate to your system and Visa-Verse and there is a break in period for any cable worth the wait. 

Break-ins and acclimation do not need volume. You can leave them on at a whisper for the complete break-in period. Of course you have to turn it up from time to time to check on progress. The progression of changes is interesting.


----------



## needspeed52

ALMFamily said:


> Yup - these are prior to the Klipsch take-over. Just finished hooking them up now as I got my cables in today - good news is that everything is working after a quick test run - hope to get a bit more time later tonight to take them for a test drive.


Joe, hope you have Michelin tires on those Hot Rods, drive carefully my friend...............
Jeff


----------



## ALMFamily

An update to this thread - I had decided to go with Song Surrounds for my side and rear surrounds. I received them this past Thursday. Here is a pic of the outer box:










I stripped off the outer box and they were completely encased in styrofoam. All the paperwork was attached:










The birth certificate!










Once the top piece came off, each was wrapped in static free wrap and encased in it's own foam area:










Here is one unwrapped with grill off:










Grill on:










The finish is fiddleback sycamore - I really liked how TJHub's looked when I saw them at the GTG last April so I decided to go with that for a finish:










Last, a pic of the woofer:










I have not had a chance to hook them up yet - looking forward to seeing how they sound!


----------



## caper26

nice!!!


----------



## Jungle Jack

Joe,
Very nice. Between the 60GT50 and these Surrounds, you have had quite a past week or so. So when is your 60GT50 being delivered?
Cheers,
J


----------



## Gregr

Very Very Nice!!! Wow they are impressive for such a little speaker. Magentic grill catches, beautiful finish, love the broad radius edge but the drivers are beautiful.
Nice find!!!


----------



## Gregr

What is your choice for speaker wire. I dislike second guessing especially after the fact. I know some of these guys can be a bore (Ha) with all recommendations so let me be brief..., Furutech $7 per meter Ultra Pure OFC Cryogenicly treated 16ga with .023 ohm resistance per M with impedance and inductance very low as well. Neotech makes some nice speaker cable as well (no cryogenics). With Furutech you can buy all the way up to 7 ohm's per Kilometer 99.9999% OCC (Professor Ohno Continuous Cast) copper. 

Sorry


----------



## ALMFamily

caper26 said:


> nice!!!


Thanks Caper!



Jungle Jack said:


> Joe,
> Very nice. Between the 60GT50 and these Surrounds, you have had quite a past week or so. So when is your 60GT50 being delivered?
> Cheers,
> J


Thanks JJ! I am picking up the GT50 today - hopefully, I can get it set up before we go camping.



Gregr said:


> Very Very Nice!!! Wow they are impressive for such a little speaker. Magentic grill catches, beautiful finish, love the broad radius edge but the drivers are beautiful.
> Nice find!!!


Thanks Greg! I have been very impressed with the build and sound quality of all the Salk speakers I have had an opportunity to hear - can't wait to get them set up.



Gregr said:


> What is your choice for speaker wire. I dislike second guessing especially after the fact. I know some of these guys can be a bore (Ha) with all recommendations so let me be brief..., Furutech $7 per meter Ultra Pure OFC Cryogenicly treated 16ga with .023 ohm resistance per M with impedance and inductance very low as well. Neotech makes some nice speaker cable as well (no cryogenics). With Furutech you can buy all the way up to 7 ohm's per Kilometer 99.9999% OCC (Professor Ohno Continuous Cast) copper.
> 
> Sorry


No worries - I have been running standard wire (from Monoprice) in my initial set-ups. Once I have everything finished in my HT and everything dialed in, I plan on taking a closer look at wire to see for myself if I can detect any difference.


----------



## Jungle Jack

Joe,
I really miss going backpacking. That is awesome you and yours are going Camping. It has only been in the past 7 or so years that I have lived in SW Florida. Prior, I lived in Tennessee, Georgia, and South Carolina and traveled extensively. During these years, I used to go on at least 5 day long trips where we would bring in Water Filters and hike for 20 miles and more. I still have all my gear, I just need to get back into it. I used to be a gear geek about hard core backpacking and now it is all about hard core couching.
J


----------



## ALMFamily

Jungle Jack said:


> Joe,
> I really miss going backpacking. That is awesome you and yours are going Camping. It has only been in the past 7 or so years that I have lived in SW Florida. Prior, I lived in Tennessee, Georgia, and South Carolina and traveled extensively. During these years, I used to go on at least 5 day long trips where we would bring in Water Filters and hike for 20 miles and more. I still have all my gear, I just need to get back into it. I used to be a gear geek about hard core backpacking and now it is all about hard core couching.
> J


Wow - that sounds pretty heavy duty! Our version of "camping" involves a 35' fifth wheel. 

Got the GT50 set up - man, this thing looks amazing straight out of the box. I hooked up the BR that came with it and popped in _Up_ - I cannot even conceive of the difference in the set we were watching before this one.

Oh my - the balloon scene just came on. Amazing color........


----------



## Jungle Jack

ALMFamily said:


> Wow - that sounds pretty heavy duty! Our version of "camping" involves a 35' fifth wheel.
> 
> Got the GT50 set up - man, this thing looks amazing straight out of the box. I hooked up the BR that came with it and popped in _Up_ - I cannot even conceive of the difference in the set we were watching before this one.
> 
> Oh my - the balloon scene just came on. Amazing color........


Hello,
It is utterly gorgeous and honestly seems to look better each day. I am currently using the Cnet Settings, but am going to run both Avia and Digital Video Essentials tonight. I would recommend using Full Screen 16:9 sources for the first 100 hours. I did not use Color Slides, but did minimize watching TV Channels with logos. For BD Movies, I would fill in the Black Bars. TV on BD does not require doing that.

In another life (it seems) I was pretty heavy duty into Backpacking. I had the same compulsion to have the absolute best in Mountaineering Gear. I am glad I still have expedition level gear. For instance, having Gore Tex Jackets and Pants has been amazing living in Florida as the rain can be often torrential. I miss living near Mountains... Also, the fluke times when it gets cold here (for Florida) it is awesome to have tons of Cashmere, Goose Down, etc...
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## needspeed52

ALMFamily said:


> Wow - that sounds pretty heavy duty! Our version of "camping" involves a 35' fifth wheel.
> 
> Got the GT50 set up - man, this thing looks amazing straight out of the box. I hooked up the BR that came with it and popped in _Up_ - I cannot even conceive of the difference in the set we were watching before this one.
> 
> Oh my - the balloon scene just came on. Amazing color........


Joe, what size did you get GT50, and from where if you don't mind me asking.
Jeff


----------



## ALMFamily

needspeed52 said:


> Joe, what size did you get GT50, and from where if you don't mind me asking.
> Jeff


Jeff,

I got the same set that JJ did - the 60GT50 - and from the same place. BB was matching the price Amazon had and BB online was including the BDP-220 in the deal. It was $1899 which IIRC was over $700 less than MSRP - not including the cost of the BDP itself.

Pretty sure this deal ended last Saturday though.....


----------



## Jungle Jack

needspeed52 said:


> Joe, what size did you get GT50, and from where if you don't mind me asking.
> Jeff


Jeff,
BB relowered it to $1899 again. When I checked on Sunday, it went back to $2099. However, the free BDP offer has ended as it was a Panasonic Promotion. Amazingly at my BB, when I picked up the BDP, they messed up and ended up discounting the TV all the way to $1750 and then charging me $150 for the BDP.
All they needed to have done is ring up the TV and BDP and the BDP would have zeroed out as it did on BB.Com. I went in late at night an the Manager on duty was pretty young and might not have known what he was doing.

Now, I can actually return the BDP and put that money towards an Extended Warranty. Even better the Extended Warranty comes down to $299 for 4 years from $499 because of the price change.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## phreak

Jungle Jack said:


> Also, the fluke times when it gets cold here (for Florida) it is awesome to have tons of Cashmere, Goose Down, etc...
> Cheers,
> JJ


As the Canadians reading here shake their heads in bewilderment!!


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I know. 2 Winters ago it actually did almost get down to 32F/0C for those away from the ocean. I honestly believe that you both get used to the oppressive heat and humidity and lose your ability to handle the cold as well. I grew up quite close to Smoky Mountains National Park and we often got snow. However, every time I come home during winter or fall after 6+ years here, I am unbelievably cold.
Cheers,
J


----------



## tonyvdb

phreak said:


> As the Canadians reading here shake their heads in bewilderment!!


LOL, so true but in all honesty I dont know how people down south deal with 95F or higher temps. I know I know, everyone has A/C but you cant do anything outside in that kind of heat. At least in -25 you can just dress warm and still go out. :dumbcrazy:


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Indeed. I would far prefer extreme cold to extreme heat. In truth, the only reason I ended up in Florida was the original school I was going to attend for TCM/Acupuncture (Traditional Chinese Medicine) in Asheville, NC was not accredited at the time I was to begin. My father is an M.D PHD who attended a Medical Acupuncture Program at UCLA and setup an Office for Acupuncture at one of the Hospitals he works at and offered to send me to school so I could work with him. With the other school out, he found the school I ended up attending in Sarasota, FL. I ended up not even visiting before moving down here.

When I first got here I lived in an Apartment. (it was at the height of the housing bubble) I happened to live on the 2nd Floor with an 85 year old woman living right below me. To say she did not appreciate my dual Paradigm Studio 100's, Servo 15, Studio CC based HT at the time was the understatement of the century. While she had lived in the same apt for over 10 years, the Management Company could not stand her and I was honestly quite close with them. Even though I took my Servo 15 offline, it was not good enough for her. After 4 months, she moved out and as soon as my lease ended I moved to one the barrier islands off the coast of Sarasota and into a house. Only bad thing was that as soon as I moved to the West of the Intercoastal Waterway (live on the Gulf of Mexico) State Farm immediately dropped my Renters Insurance. Worse still, only small Insurance Companies offer it and the best quote I got was $15,000 a year. Still drives me crazy.
Forgive the tangent,
J


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## showcattleguy

Off topic cause I'm good for that but here goes.
35ft 5th wheel... Cummins, Duramax, or Powerstroke
Choose wisely


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## Jungle Jack

Duramax. The combination of the Allison Transmission with the Duramax is outstanding.


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## needspeed52

ALMFamily said:


> Jeff,
> 
> I got the same set that JJ did - the 60GT50 - and from the same place. BB was matching the price Amazon had and BB online was including the BDP-220 in the deal. It was $1899 which IIRC was over $700 less than MSRP - not including the cost of the BDP itself.
> 
> Pretty sure this deal ended last Saturday though.....


Joe, thanks Buddy, that's the one I'm looking at, my Panny TH-50PZ77 is still running strong and PQ is amazing after almost four years, the BDP-220 sure is a bonus included with the GT50, great find my friend. Joe make sure you register the GT50 at PlasmaConcierge.com, direct hotline to Panasonic Tech support and warranty service, great customer and warranty service from Panasonic in my experiences with them, direct number to them 1-800-973-4390. Take care my friend, hope this helps.:T
Cheers Jeff


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## showcattleguy

Jungle Jack said:


> Duramax. The combination of the Allison Transmission with the Duramax is outstanding.


Nice choice! I have owned two LMM's and thought the world of them. (Thought it would be fun to test the limits of the stock rotating assembly, and sucked an impeller through the motor while at the dragstrip with the other one) Now I have a cummins because new GMC duallies can run $65k+ and shelling out that much $$ on a vehicle doesn't seem logical to me. Sorry to go off on a tangent I will behave from now on


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## Jungle Jack

It is astounding what can be done by flashing the ECM with any of the 3 Diesels thanks to them being Turbo Charged. Stock, the torque levels are utterly absurd. And indeed any of the Diesels are quite expensive, but they do enjoy far better resale value than the gas models. End of tangent....


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## cdunphy

so how do the emp techs sound? great looking speakers and great price


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## ALMFamily

I have been pleased with them - they are very good speakers. And, even better, I was able to get them as B-stock so they were less than $500 for the pair. They are not as dynamic as my Songtowers IMO, but they do a very good job creating the soundfield in my living room system which has vaulted ceilings.


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## GranteedEV

ALMFamily said:


> I have been pleased with them - they are very good speakers. And, even better, I was able to get them as B-stock so they were less than $500 for the pair. They are not as dynamic as my Songtowers IMO, but they do a very good job creating the soundfield in my living room system which has vaulted ceilings.


I really like them as well. They might not have the low level resolution or "quietness" of the Philharmonics, or the deep, layered soundstage, but what they do have is a sense of cohesiveness and naturalness that you don't expect from looking at them.


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## yoda13

^^^
How did you get them delivered? From the site, it tells me that FedEx doesn't recognize my address. I'm starting to gear up to upgrade from my Athenas and these are on my radar. The center is what is attracting me to these.

cheers


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## pharoah

i guess im a bit late to make a recommendation.i was going to say tekton design.they sound fantastic i dont own any tekton speakers.i have heard a pair that belongs to a friend.


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## ALMFamily

yoda13 said:


> ^^^
> How did you get them delivered? From the site, it tells me that FedEx doesn't recognize my address. I'm starting to gear up to upgrade from my Athenas and these are on my radar. The center is what is attracting me to these.
> 
> cheers


Odd, I had no problems getting mine delivered. I would try giving them a call.


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## chashint

ALMFamily said:


> ................ Our version of "camping" involves a 35' fifth wheel.  ........


Our version of camping out is Hampton Inn.


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## yoda13

ALMFamily said:


> Odd, I had no problems getting mine delivered. I would try giving them a call.


I'm in Canada, Eastern Canada to boot.


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## ALMFamily

chashint said:


> Our version of camping out is Hampton Inn.


:rofl:



yoda13 said:


> I'm in Canada, Eastern Canada to boot.


I would definitely give them a call - can't see why they would not deliver there.


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## GranteedEV

yoda13 said:


> ^^^
> How did you get them delivered? From the site, it tells me that FedEx doesn't recognize my address. I'm starting to gear up to upgrade from my Athenas and these are on my radar. The center is what is attracting me to these.
> 
> cheers


You have to give EMP a call, and then they will send you a sheet you need to fill out. Just fax it back to them. Their website isn't set up for orders into Canada, but the company does ship to Canada.


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## NBPk402

ALMFamily said:


> That is good news to me - I had been reading that the electrostat ML's can be a bit tricky to get good sound on...... Thanks!!


I don't know about that... stick them a few feet out from any wall and give them clean power and they will really sing IMO!


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## nik_ash

bluemax_1 said:


> That's one of the beautiful things about being an Amazon Prime member: $3.99 1-day shipping and Free 2-day shipping.
> 
> BTW, a little off-topic, but aside from paying the $6x.xx for the Prime membership from Amazon (great for folks who regularly purchase items from them) I heard of another way to get Prime membership. Not sure if it still works, but a friend told me that if you order more than $6x.xx worth of baby food/products, Amazon provided Prime membership free. He didn't have any kids, so he bought the stuff (at lower prices than most retail stores) for his friends with kids, LOL!
> 
> Biggest savings for me from Prime membership, free shipping for my second pair of Boston Acoustics E100 speakers from Amazon (great sounding speakers BTW! But unfortunately discontinued. Too expensive to make, and at $2500 EACH, they didn't sell well for BA, but I think they might be the best speakers BA has ever made). With the boxes measuring 77"x13"x13" and weighing over 100lbs, shipping for those would have cost a fortune.
> 
> If you could ever find a pair of those, you might consider auditioning them too. They pop up on audiogon or Craigslist once in a while at much lower than MSRP. Powered by the Emotiva XPA-1 500 watt monoblock amps I'm using, these puppies really sing. They're a fairy easy load at 89db/w/m sensitivity at 8 ohms, but providing them ample wattage REALLY makes them shine, and boy can they thump with the monoblocks!
> 
> I like 'em so much, I have a 7.1 set in the Black Walnut finish (E100's, E70's and E60's) and a 5.1 set in the Cherry finish (E100's and E70's) still new in the box waiting for me to install for 5.1 in the bedroom when I move.
> 
> 
> Max


I like the E Series as well. Started with one E100 6 years ago.


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## nik_ash

Then managed to get two E70s to complete the front.


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## nik_ash

Above were used and in Black Walnut finish.


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## nik_ash

Then got lucky and managed to buy two E50s and one E70 from a seller north of Toronto. The surprise was that these were brand new in box and I had the pleasure of even opening the boxes.


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## nik_ash

Only one issue with the setup so far - no wall mount or stands. A pretty serious issue considering that the series was in "Discontinued" status.


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## nik_ash

Update regarding experience with E-series from Boston Acoustics:
Last year, found a listing on Craigslist - Fort Collins, CO for two E100s with bases, one E70 and two E40s with stands. In a nutshell, drove to Fort Collins, CO, USA from Mississauga, ON, Canada to get the much coveted E100s, everything else was a bonus. 

End result is that I have privilege of having E100s as my LCR in the basement and E70s as LCR in the living room. Never imagined it but somehow I have managed two 7 channel systems comprising of entirely E-series speakers. Still missing E60s, hopefully will be able to find a pair at reasonable price to complete the series. 

E100s are really good but power hungry. Pioneer Elite AVR - VSX-84TXsi (140w/channel) would shut down when pushed (even in PURE mode - 2 channels only) Recently got an opportunity to buy a used Parasound HCA1200A, which provides 205w/ channel and 'Wow' what a difference in sound. E100s (LR) really shine with more power from the Parasound amp.


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