# Blu-ray players



## Wayde (Jun 5, 2006)

are there any BD players on the market today that can do the following...

1080/24 output through HDMI
+
Decode TrueHD/DTS HD

I don't even care about HDMI 1.3, as long as it can decode interally it can send the high resolution uncompressed sound to my receiver via analogue cables and I'm all set. My receiver doesn't have HDMI and I'm not about to get one over this.

However, I do notice that some of the BD discs for sale are doing 5.1 PCM uncompressed soundtracks. The new James Bond movie Casino Royale is an example. Is it possible that BD is shying away from the codecs to do this PCM thing?

Any suggestions on BD player would be appreciated. I'm testing a few now, I am auditioning the Pioneer BDP-HD50-K. (I think the -K just means it's Kanadian because I think the US model has no -K).

I don't think I'll keep this disc player though, it's going back... I just hooked it all up and started reading the docs, it doesn't decode TrueHD or DTS HD. But it does True24FPS.


----------



## Wayde (Jun 5, 2006)

I put the Pioneer BDP-HD50-K through the paces last night with a viewing (with my son) of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles then... after bed time a viewing of the opening and theme music of Casino Royale. 

I was thoroughly impressed.

I've always been something of an HD DVD guy. Not that I believe in any sort of corporate favoritism but I had been faithful since the early days of the "One Format" petition and the DVD format's committee (whatever it's called, it was a long time ago).

Ironically, my allegience to the HD DVD format resulted in me buying the expansion player for Xbox 360. My need for an updated DVD player has me saying well, lets throw in a BD player and I have all the bases covered. 

I was totally impressed with the Pio BD player. The lossless soundtradck on Casino Royale blew me away. The fight scene in the bathroom that opens the film conveyed all the brutality and blood soaked bludeoning that I'm certain the director intended. The juxtopision between the polite conversation (at gunpoint) and the bathroom fight where 007 explains how he scored his early kills was a masterfully drawn on my HT system.

Make that a point for home theater over movie theater. I went to the movies to see this one when it came out and was impressed but not blown away as I was with the Blu-ray disc listening to the lossless uncompressed 5.1 soundtrack.

So, I am still in the market for a BD player. Even though I was impressed with it it's going back because it cannot do DTS-HD or Dolby TrueHD.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Can any of the Blu-ray players do TrueHD?


----------



## Wayde (Jun 5, 2006)

That's my primary question. I don't know. I have yet to find one. I have however found that some Blu-ray discs have a TrueHD soundtrack.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm thinking there are none at this time. The Samsung BD-UP5000 dual format player due out in October may offer it. :huh:


----------



## Wayde (Jun 5, 2006)

thanks Sonnie. That's the conclusion I am drawing, that there are none. 

However, what I'm wondering is how important is it? It seems that a lot of BD movies are not using the new codecs and just going with lossless PCM 5.1 soundtracks.


----------



## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

I guess I'm a little behind here, (actually I'm sure I used to know this, but I've been out of the loop for a while), but is the lossless PCM version of the soundtrack the same mix as the standard DVD DD track, just uncompressed? And then the True HD and DTS HD are different mixes (or incorporate 7.1?)... or are they just the same mix using different compression (less than standard DD/DTS) that works with the larger bandwidth of the HD formats?


----------



## Wayde (Jun 5, 2006)

excellent question

http://www.avrev.com/blu_ray/revs/0507/casino_royale.shtml

All I can say is that the soundtrack calls it a PCM 5.1 (uncompressed). Probably the same as Dolby Digital. 

Maybe this is how Blu-ray is going because dual density has so much extra space? I'm not sure.


----------



## wbassett (Feb 8, 2007)

I just got off the phone with Sony. Mitch said that the PS3 can do Dolby TrueHD over HDMI (unfortunately no analog if that's what you were looking for) and it also does 1080p/24 as well.

I have a PS3 as my BD player and can verify that is is an exceptional player, and very fast too. Not sure if this was one you were considering, but it's worth at least checking into. Unfortunately I don't have the setup to confirm this myself right now.


----------



## Wayde (Jun 5, 2006)

Thanks WB. 

I did some reading and research and it turns out that now is not the time to buy any BD players. The main issue is the blu-ray profiles. I'll write something of substance on this in the near future, maybe we can keep it around this forum for future reference. 

It turns out that the BD isn't quite finished yet. That's not to knock bd as a format but there is an upcoming BD 1.1 and then 2.0 (which I beleive is what they're calling the BD-Live profile).

It also looks like Samsung is about to release the Ultimate dual format player. And Denon is about to release the ULTIMATE BD player you ever wanted with high end video processing. 

If you're interested in the BD format - now is a good time to be patient.


----------



## wbassett (Feb 8, 2007)

Wayde said:


> Thanks WB.
> 
> I did some reading and research and it turns out that now is not the time to buy any BD players. The main issue is the blu-ray profiles. I'll write something of substance on this in the near future, maybe we can keep it around this forum for future reference.
> 
> ...


Funny, BD wasn't 'quite finished' or really even ready as far as their own standards from day one! 

I have both formats, but honestly, I tend to like HD DVD a little better. Except for a couple titles that were mastered exceptionally well, the rest of the Bluray DVDs I have seen, although better than SDVD just weren't quite as good as the HD DVDs I've seen and own.

I think if it's true that Paramount and Dream Works animation went HD DVD, that's a huge shift in the tides and I think Black Friday is going to be big for HD DVD. Oh I am sure BD players will be on sale too, but not at the prices I expect Toshiba players to be.

I do like the PS3 though and am not trying to come off as a fan boy. I have mine setup as a media server where I have DVDs stored on an external USB drive in full DVD uncompressed quality (uncompressed for the majority of them to be honest, some have slight compression), and I just saw my first 1080p PS3 game over the weekend, so it's a bit more than just a player and I feel one of the few out there now that will be able to be updated to 2.0 compliance.

My brother is format neutral as well and overall I think he prefers HD DVD, but he feels ultimately Bluray will win, and right now I am leaning towards HD DVD.

The Samsungn player you mentioned, yes that is very interesting as long as it's not like the LG and just plays HD DVD and doesn't support some of the HD DVD features. If it's a full featured player for both formats then they got it right, but the price is going to ultimately kill it I think. So I agree with you, right now it's so close to the release of the new BD players that people should wait just a little longer and see what happens.


----------



## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

I think there are 2 discs out with trueHD currently. The problem really is DTS-HD MA which is favored by Blu-ray and on about one third of all titles currently released. The problem is this, not a single player can decode the full audio track. Certain players can decode a lesser version of it but currently there is no mandatory specs forcing companies to support these audio tracks.

This is why you see PCM use on about 30% of the other titles where the space is available. PCM wastes space but is uncompressed and can be played on all players. Unfortunatly because it does waste spaces you are more likely to see this on a 90 minute movie on a 50 g disc which is still in the minority.


----------



## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Things sure seem to have gotten sloppy lately. It feels like there are too many options and variations of formats to really have anything settle in. Remember when "AC-3" was emerging? It didn't take long to go from onboard player decoding and "AC-3 Capable" receivers to having everything established and built in and ready to go as DD 5.1, and I think DTS 5.1 fit in about the same time as a bonus on many receivers. Even with SACD/DVDA and the bass management issues, external decoding still wasn't that big a problem, and didn't take too long to figure out and settle down.

How many new surround formats are there really? I've compiled a list of the main ones, and some of their features (I think - corrections are welcome, this is confusing!)

1) *DTS HD High Resolution Audio* - higher bitrate encoding than standard DTS, 7.1 channels, backward compatible with existing DTS decoders - optional format for HD discs
2) *DD Plus* - higher bitrate encoding than standard DD, 7.1 channels for BD/HDDVD, up to 13.1 for audio, also backward compatible - standard format for HD DVD, and optional for BD
3) *DTS Encore* - Standard DTS but at twice the resolution (1.5 Mbps) for 5.1 channels

and the top dogs...

4) *DTS HD Master Audio* - lossless encoding, unlimited surround channels (7.1 channels for BD/HD DVD), backward compatible with existing DTS decoders - optional format for HD discs
5)*Dolby True HD* - lossless encoding, 7.1 discrete channels - optional format for BD, may be a standard for HD DVD


----------



## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

Owen Bartley said:


> Things sure seem to have gotten sloppy lately. It feels like there are too many options and variations of formats to really have anything settle in. Remember when "AC-3" was emerging? It didn't take long to go from onboard player decoding and "AC-3 Capable" receivers to having everything established and built in and ready to go as DD 5.1, and I think DTS 5.1 fit in about the same time as a bonus on many receivers. Even with SACD/DVDA and the bass management issues, external decoding still wasn't that big a problem, and didn't take too long to figure out and settle down.
> 
> How many new surround formats are there really? I've compiled a list of the main ones, and some of their features (I think - corrections are welcome, this is confusing!)
> 
> ...


Gotta love that there are about 45 movies that all have DTS HD MA tracks but not a single player for the format can decode it as MA, it gets down rezezzed and decoded as HR instead by players that can even do that much.

The largest problem is that the Blu-ray format does not make it mandatory to decode any of these high def audio tracks. So if a studio uses an advanced audio track, the studio has to allow for those consumers that have players that can not decode this track. Which means they would also need to include regular DD audio tracks along with it.

So Blu-ray is stuck with leaving everything as PCM uncompressed or including extra audio tracks at the same time, either way wastes space on the discs.

Since over 70% of all releases are on 25g discs and over 50% of releases are encoded with MPEG-2 wasting additional space could possibly come at the cost of loss of quality and/or content.


----------



## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

ugh, what a stupid mess we have. To make matters more confusing, as I posted in the "HD DVD losing ground" thread, apparently we might be seeing a lot more built-in decoding, depending on how the discs are authored. It might even prove to be for the best that way, but it really does add more complexity to the "what should I buy?" question.


----------



## MrPorterhouse (Jul 29, 2006)

Tommy said:


> Gotta love that there are about 45 movies that all have DTS HD MA tracks but not a single player for the format can decode it as MA, it gets down rezezzed and decoded as HR instead by players that can even do that much.


Actually, I applaud FOX for being progressive in including lossless audio on the discs, even before there were players/receivers that could handle it. This means that consumers can buy the disc when its released, and won't have to repurchase(double dip) a future disc that would include the DTS HD Master Audio at a later date. Sure, a standardized lossless format that's mandatory would solve this, but so far there isn't a mandatory lossless audio format, so the next best thing is to put lossless on the disc and go from there.


----------



## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

I think it's fantastic that some studios are going above and beyond and providing some future proofing in their releases. I remember how lousy some of the first generation DVDs I bought were, and how cranky I was at replacing some of them later on.


----------



## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

Sort of like bdlive and interactivity for blu-ray, it doesnt matter if it works now as long as a few years from now it works....

It does me no good if the disc disinegrates with disc rot as has been reported in the news with some of these discs before I can ever listen to a lossless track when others have been available for the last year for immediate use. 

If they want to charge for it now, it should work now otherwise I'll buy it a few years from now when it does work


----------



## MrPorterhouse (Jul 29, 2006)

Tommy said:


> Sort of like bdlive and interactivity for blu-ray, it doesnt matter if it works now as long as a few years from now it works....
> 
> It does me no good if the disc disinegrates with disc rot as has been reported in the news with some of these discs before I can ever listen to a lossless track when others have been available for the last year for immediate use.


That "rot" was isolated to a single batch of discs where the coating batch thats used to treat the disc was contaminated. Its funny how the internet can take some manufacturing mistake like this and somehow extrapolate it into meaning the the entire format is prone to disinegrating. Not the case at all.


----------



## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

MrPorterhouse said:


> That "rot" was isolated to a single batch of discs where the coating batch thats used to treat the disc was contaminated. Its funny how the internet can take some manufacturing mistake like this and somehow extrapolate it into meaning the the entire format is prone to disinegrating. Not the case at all.


Yes I have exaggerated the disc rot news in making a funny about my point..... :bigsmile:

I have FOX BR discs that I have watched and owned for over a half year now that are still not capable of playing lossless audio tracks that are on them. 

Lossless tracks are available to consumers today for both formats so what good does having this "future proof" track do me only to know that years from now I will be able to listent to it and get the same exact quality that is available today from other lossless audio options like PCM and/or trueHD track?


----------



## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Tom, I guess it will just come down to preference, just like most of the DD/DTS debates for standard DVD. I like to use DTS tracks whenever they are available, but I can't really give evidence why. It's another good option for those who are interested in using it. It won't make or break the experience for most, but is a nice bonus for some.


----------



## MrPorterhouse (Jul 29, 2006)

Tommy said:


> Lossless tracks are available to consumers today for both formats so what good does having this "future proof" track do me only to know that years from now I will be able to listent to it and get the same exact quality that is available today from other lossless audio options like PCM and/or trueHD track?


It doesn't do you ANY good right now. Bottom line, lossless tracks should be included that are able to be played immediately, but instead of not including any lossless version and only incuding lossy audio, its better to at least put a lossless track on the disc for a later day. It will save you the double dip later. And I'd also add that the lossy core of the DTS HD Master Audio is actually pretty good, and its arguable as to how much better or how much more enjoyment the lossless version really adds, pending room and equipment.


----------



## santora (Jul 31, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> Can any of the Blu-ray players do TrueHD?


I was under the impression that None of the current players OUTPUT true HD. They all down convert it to 5.1. I could be wrong, but that's how I understand it. Supposedly the Blu Ray 1.1 Spec due in October will fix this on the new systems and perhaps through a bios update in the older.

Not to mention, you need a new fangled Receiver to decode it anyway! :daydream:


----------



## Guest (Aug 23, 2007)

The Panny DMP-BD10AK can internally decode True HD but not DTS-Master HD.


----------



## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

MrPorterhouse said:


> And I'd also add that the lossy core of the DTS HD Master Audio is actually pretty good, and its arguable as to how much better or how much more enjoyment the lossless version really adds, pending room and equipment.


MrP, I thought Master was the lossless version? Or do you mean the Master being dumbed down to the backward compatible plain vanilla DTS?


----------



## santora (Jul 31, 2007)

Th8ter Nut said:


> The Panny DMP-BD10AK can internally decode True HD but not DTS-Master HD.


But it still can't get it out to a Receiver/decoder for 7.1, right? I was under the impression that the new Blu Ray spec, 1.1, will fix this. Doesn't it down convert it to 5.1 to go out? That's one of the many reasons I've been waiting on Blu Ray.


----------



## Guest (Aug 23, 2007)

santora said:


> But it still can't get it out to a Receiver/decoder for 7.1, right? I was under the impression that the new Blu Ray spec, 1.1, will fix this. Doesn't it down convert it to 5.1 to go out? That's one of the many reasons I've been waiting on Blu Ray.


It can either through HDMI or 7.1 analog if your recevier has 7.1 analog inputs. If it is HDMI it will say PCM since the decoding is being performed in the player and not the receiver. I think what will fix it is HDMI 1.3a outputs on the HD DVD or Blu-Ray player. I am with you on the waiting. I have the Onkyo 905 which will decode both True HD and DTS Master HD if they will ever make a player that will send to it.


----------



## santora (Jul 31, 2007)

Th8ter Nut said:


> It can either through HDMI or 7.1 analog if your recevier has 7.1 analog inputs. If it is HDMI it will say PCM since the decoding is being performed in the player and not the receiver. I think what will fix it is HDMI 1.3a outputs on the HD DVD or Blu-Ray player. I am with you on the waiting. I have the Onkyo 905 which will decode both True HD and DTS Master HD if they will ever make a player that will send to it.


Alright. That makes sense. So if it is being decoded in the player it is 5.1, but if the handshake of the 1.3 HDMI works, then it is decoded in the receiver and then you get the 7.1.

strangely, I'm currently debating between the Onkyo 905/875/805. I know the chipset for uprezing is different. Any thoughts you'd care to share on the 905?


----------



## Guest (Aug 23, 2007)

santora said:


> Alright. That makes sense. So if it is being decoded in the player it is 5.1, but if the handshake of the 1.3 HDMI works, then it is decoded in the receiver and then you get the 7.1.
> 
> strangely, I'm currently debating between the Onkyo 905/875/805. I know the chipset for uprezing is different. Any thoughts you'd care to share on the 905?


It will still be 7.1 if decoded in the player but it has to flow from the player to the receiver with either HDMI or 7.1 analog. Of course if the receiver only has 5.1 analog inputs then you will only get 5.1.

Regarding the Onkyo's I chose the 905 because I wanted the Reon processor for upconverting SD. When I purchased mine there was only $200 difference in price. I am glad I did now because the 905 has adjustments on the Reon that the 875 does not. Also HD radio, and it will play mp3's from from PC over the network which inturn will feed my whole house system. Also the power transformer is much better than in the 875.


----------



## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

Have you seen the Onkyo player coming out on HD DVD it has HDMI 1.3


----------



## santora (Jul 31, 2007)

Tommy said:


> Have you seen the Onkyo player coming out on HD DVD it has HDMI 1.3


Looks good. But I can't really see myself investing in a stand along player in either format until we're a bit farther into this "format war." I'll most likely get a PS3 in the next couple of months, but it'll be to watch movies, not to play games (yet). And the only reason to go with it is simply because there will be games I eventually want o play on it and as far as the Blu Ray spec, it should be able to keep up with 1.1 and further.


----------



## Guest (Aug 24, 2007)

Tommy said:


> Have you seen the Onkyo player coming out on HD DVD it has HDMI 1.3


Isn't it kind of expensive compared to the new Toshiba's coming out this fall?


----------



## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

Th8ter Nut said:


> Isn't it kind of expensive compared to the new Toshiba's coming out this fall?


Your definitely paying extra towards the brand name but besides that which tosh are you comparing it to and does it have the same features or not? The MSRP of the HD-XA2 is $800

Also I think this is the first player that will support HDMI 1.3


----------



## santora (Jul 31, 2007)

Onkyo equipment tends to run a touch on the pricey side (for their non low end electronics), because they go the extra mile putting it together. Huge heat sinks, larger capacitors with better range, etc. My Onkyo receiver's a tank (literally). But it's THX certified, has dual room signal, and 100 watts per channel (6.1). BTW, the unit is seven or eight years old and it still sounds better than most of the **** I hear at Best buy and Circuit City.

Onkyo is worth the premium. I actually like their stuff better than Denon. But that's my opinion.


----------



## Guest (Aug 27, 2007)

I agree with you about the Onkyo receivers as I own a 905 myself. The Toshiba's I am referring to are the new 3rd gens. Specifically the A-35, this player will do 24 FPS, and should be able to pass True HD and DTS Master on to a capable receiver. It lists for $499, I am an Onkyo fan but can't see paying the extra $300 for a player that should perform just as well.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Hey guys... we need to start a new thread about the new Onkyo player since this is a "Blu-ray players" thread. Thanks!


----------



## Guest (Sep 21, 2007)

Wayde said:


> are there any BD players on the market today that can do the following...
> 
> 1080/24 output through HDMI
> +
> ...


Yes, the BDP1400 with new firmware will do it all provided you have a receiver that can handle it like the new Onkyo's. It looks like upgrade to newer receiver is what it would take in your case.


----------



## RollsRoyce (Apr 20, 2006)

The 1400 with the firmware update only passes DTS-HD MA and HR as "bitstream" through HDMI for decoding by a receiver/pre-pro. It doesn't decode it in the player. On the other hand, it does decode Dolby DD+ and TrueHD and can send them out via analog and HDMI.


----------

