# Stereo = Front Mains?



## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

Is there any difference between an analogue signal from the RCA/phono Stereo sockets and that from the Front Mains signals from their respective 6-channel analogue RCA/phono sockets on the same DVDP?

Are they interchangeable?


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm not sure I follow.. are you saying that there is a 5 channel out (for DD) AND a separate 2 channel out (for stereo music) from your DVD player?

If so, my GUESS would be that the signals are different -- full two channel on one and the discrete l/r channels in DD on the other. If it were stereo only, then maybe they would be the same.

I'm sure someone smarter will confirm or deny my answer.. :bigsmile: 

JCD


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

From here on it gets horribly complicated: 

On my NAD T533 DVDP I have 5.1 analogue out and stereo L&R out sockets as well as various digital connection options.

I'm curious to know what the difference is between the discrete L&R mains and the stereo L&R when watching DVDs.

At the moment I use the analogue stereo sockets on the DVDP for films because of the natural sound quality from my Naim pre-power. I could put the L&R analogue Mains signals though my Naim pre-power but the SQ doesn't seem as good as the stereo option. Presumably the processing is taking its toll and the Naim gear is ruthlessly exposing it.

I'm trying to avoid pushing the Front Mains signal through my old Yamaha 3.1 DSP E800 Processor. When I put the whole 5.1 from the DVDP through the Yamaha DSP the sound quality is very disappointing from the mains. The same problem using the digital connections. So I connect only the analogue Rears to the DSP from the DVDP and and enjoy rather basic 4.0 Dolby surround but with sub-10Hz extension from the IB.  

I am really not sure redirecting bass from setting Rears to small (and Centre=No) works with the stereo sockets. Logically it shouldn't. The problem is I need the all redirected bass I can get for my biamped IB. Which is running in parallel (via active CX) with my stereo/Mains. 

NAD has told me not to try and use the DVDP as a processor like this and I should just buy an AV receiver (preferably one of theirs of course). I haven't heard an AV 5.1 receiver I really like yet at a price I am willing to accept to try and compete against the superb Naim stereo SQ on DVDs.

The top-end NAD kit is indeed rather nice but just too expensive for my (wife's) tastes. I haven't heard the mid-priced models but assume they will offer typical mid-price SQ however affordable they may seem.

Which brings me right back to square one. I am unwilling to give up my Naim SQ on films. So I must try and achieve a better surround compromise that works without expending a fortune on new kit. Are there any other possible options open to me?

All suggestions warmly welcomed.


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

id imagine, if you dvdp is like mine, the stereo outs are the stereo down mix from the DD 5.1, NOT the L and R channels.

The way your doing it, id guess the sound effects destined for the rear are being sent to the fronts as well.

On my denon, the is an option called "source direct", this kills all processing other than the decoding, and the 5.1 sockets sound pretty decent using this.

My problem is i need the sound crossed over at 80hz (thx speakers) so i run the dvd player with its processing, the delay and bass management is pretty good for sacds, and even cds, makes the imaging much better.

For DD/DTS though, i use coax to my reciver and let it decode it all.

ps, if you like the naim "sound" i doubt any av gear will appease you 

edd


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

Hi Edd.

I think I shall just have to try the Front Mains analogue outs again to feed the Naim pre for films. That should ensure bass redirection from Rears and Centre finds it way home to the Mains.

I liked the CD analogue stereo perfomance on the NAD DVDP so much I stopped using my CD player for quite some time. It has a silky smooth quality but perhaps lacks a little "excitement". My wife calls it; "easy listening" on a good day.  

The only reason I'm getting "hot and bothered" about all of this is worrying about my missing redirected bass. I'd like even greater dynamics from my IB but can't seem to get the missing LFE because of my CX-split, front mains/IB setup.


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

I can finally report success! 

Using the Front Mains sockets off the DVDP to feed the Naim preamp produced the most brutal AV experience I have ever suffered by a very large margin.

I watched the whole of The Twin Towers with the dialogue averaging 80dB and have just struggled from my chair completely exhausted. I was totally wasted by vicious 110dB (C-uncorrected) effects that had to be heard to be believed. Not just your usual AV booms and yet more booms. But solid reality writ very large. There was no warmth at all. Just incredibly realistic destruction. Exactly as depicted on the screen.

There was an increase in brightness over the stereo sockets but it was well worth it. After months of trying I finally have the IB perfoming just as it should. It went very loud before and I really believed that was as much as it could manage. It just wasn't getting all the bass redirected from the missing channels. Now it is! 

Nothing even comes close to what I've just been through. :surrender:


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

im pretty sure the .1 channel would have been down mixed to the stereo outs as well, but along with the rear channels at the same time, which could have muddied things.

Another idea to try for 5.1 is perhaps drive your IB with the .1 sub out from you dvd player, the problem you could have here is whether it provides enough drive for the ep2500, and if you can controll the crossover point in your player (i can in mine), although, you would have to set the voulme with the ep2500 everytime you changed volume on the pre. 

just get another 2 naim pres :laugh: that will give you 6 channels of naimness and great controll over individual levels, and since hd-dvd is going the way of the decoder in the player, your sorted :laugh: 

edd


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

edd

The .1 option won't fly without a major rethink and I'm a happy bunny already as far as sub perfomance is concerned.

The stereo option definitely lacked the brutal dynamics I'm suddenly getting now.

The stereo option was actually louder in output so I didn't need as much volume on the preamp. Now I'm at 9 o'clock instead of 8.

I also had exactly the same settings in the DVDP so can only assume that stereo wasn't getting the redirected bass. I'm talking chalk and cheese here on dynamics and bass SQ. 

I've had months trying get the IB right on stereo on dozens of films without the result I have achieved only today. It was often very loud before (regularly checked on the meter) but it wasn't brutal like it is now. I also wasn't getting much cone movement or floor effects. Now the baffle wall wants to join the party! I might try sand loading or concrete blocks in the wall to increase inertia. Otherwise its got to be an opposed driver manifold.

Can I live with the slightly increased brightness? I'll just have to learn to. It's just what I've been hearing on every surround system I've ever heard. A slight scratchiness and sibilance is how I would characterise it compared with my usual liquid silk SQ.


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

Id guess the crushing of dynamics was due to the downmixing, its usualy bad.

With the 5.1 its not downmixed, even when you only use 4.0, it just moves the .1 bass to the fronts, and moves the centre there as well, nothing to complicated.

the shrill brightness etc, well, ive never been a fan of DD or dts, even cd sounds better, another issue of course is at high volumes treble can get out of hand, one of the main reasons apperntly THX rolls it off a little, (according to home theatre secrets anyway)

As i thought about the .1 output i realised it was a no go, but id typed so much i couldnt be bothered to delete it, i like to ramble.

i dont suppose your naim gear has a treble control :R 

i may come across as slightly scathing to naim gear, actualy, i love the stuff, im a real flat earther at heart with reagrds to hifi, but you wouldnt catch me feeding icky digital stuff into salesburys finest, would have to be an lp12, with maybe an aro :R 


i dont have room for a stereo hifi at the moment, so unfortunatly its shoved through the av system, which is purely av in concept, other than the record deck :R but i cant be without my vinyl.

edd


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

I wouldn't call it shrill by any means. 

It's just a slight overemphasis of the high end which exaggerates certain common sounds. 

Turning the bass up even higher is a pretty good antidote!


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

The 2CH and 5.1 front LR outputs on my Pioneer DV563 dvd player are exactly the same.They are parrallel outputs from the same opamp.


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

F1 fan said:


> The 2CH and 5.1 front LR outputs on my Pioneer DV563 dvd player are exactly the same.They are parrallel outputs from the same opamp.


Interesting, but how did you discover this?

By lifting the lid?


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

pretty easy to find out realy, just try both sockets with a test tone like on the avia disc or the thx optimiser, you will soon find out where the rear/centre/sub signals are being routed.

edd


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

How does playing a test disk with my DVDP differentiate between stereo L&R and 5.1 Mains L&R? 

The DVDP will still play L&R whichever sockets I use. Will it not?


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

to find out where the rears get routed, also the bass. As a test disc does lesft, centre, right, rear right, rear left, sub you should be able to figure out where they are being routed.

If on the stereo outs the rear effects occur from the fronts as well as the rears, you know its a down mix, rather then just l&r

edd


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> If on the stereo outs the rear effects occur from the fronts as well as the rears, you know its a down mix, rather then just l&r


Yep...........................


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

eddthompson said:


> If on the stereo outs the rear effects occur from the fronts as well as the rears, you know its a down mix, rather then just l&r
> 
> edd


How will stereo output to the rears if it's 2.0? :scratch:


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

if its down mixed, the stero output will combine the 5.1 sound track into 2 channels.
Including the rear sound effect, much like the L and R would output the rears if you switched off the rears in the speaker size menu.

edd


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Chrisbee said:


> Interesting, but how did you discover this?
> 
> By lifting the lid?


Yes I lifted the lid to do some mods and I also have the schematic.


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

Well, I ran The Calibrator DVD test disk on DD 5.1 ID voice recordings using the analogue Stereo sockets.

L&R ID were normal with total silence from the other (L or R) channel not being tested. 

Centre channel clearly came from dead centre between both stereo speakers. 

The rear ID signal sounded out of phase (and slightly bassier) but still came from the front speakers. 

Sub is set to None in the DVDP menu and produced no signal from the speakers in this test. 

Then I switched on my Yamaha rear channel processor/amp.

The rears play normally provided they are connected to the 5.1 rear sockets. Which is to be expected since I was using a 5.1 test. But I was getting a double dose from front and rear by using the Stereo socket connections.

When I move the DVDP output cables over to 5.1 analogue Main L&R sockets the rear signal can no longer be heard from the front speakers.

Interestingly(?) there is no output from any speakers whether sub is set to none or large in the DVDP. There is no difference here wether the DVDP is connected to the stereo or the 5.1 sockets. 

My fuzzy logic suggests that the sub channel signal should be sent to the front mains. Obviously it's not! My conclusion is that any bass redirection would have to take place in an AV receiver provided the sub socket on the DVDP was connected. Perhaps bass redirection is only possible in the digital domain with digital cabling?

Conclusions? The Stereo sockets produce a double dose of rears when the rear processor/amp is switched on. So best surround sound should come from the 5.1 discrete sockets. The stereo socket option merely provides a slight "surround effect" to liven up DVD watching.


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

as i suspected.

on my dvd player, the sub level is very low on these calibration things, ive not tested it with the sub set to off as my speakers roll off at 80hz (stupid thx again).

To get the bass up to a decent level on the analogue cables, i need to run the sub at +10db in the dvdp menus, on the reciver, the mains are at -4 and -1, and the sub i set anywhere between +5 and +12 so using the 5.1 analogue cables the sub is getting between a 15 and 22db boost.

If your running your mains as large, you still will get bass, as the front channels are full range in 5.1, im not to sure where the ,1 track is going at the moment.

There is a 20-20000hz sweep on the thx optimiser, but i dont know if this uses the .1 channel, this could be tricky to sus where you bass is going.

I cant see why the speaker setting would affect the digital, as this would be handled in the reciver, on my system for the coaxial DD link i set all the speakers sizes and distances in the reciver, then have to the same thing in the dvdp for sacd/dvd-audio so i have the correct bass management, and in 5.1 analogue mode, my amp does nothing but change the level.

ramble ramble. :snoring: 

edd


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

Not boring at all edd. I'm learning from your experience and that's what is important. :T 

Remember that I don't have a "proper" 5.1 AV receiver. Just the old Yamaha DSP E800. Which may be 5.1 in the processing but is only 3.0 (rears + centre in the amp compartment. 

This is why it is important to me to sort out what is happening to the .1 bass.

For DVD films my system is basically a triamped 4.0 DVDP. 

I don't like the sound of the Yamaha when it gets its grubby hands on my main speaker signal. 

So I'm not giving it that chance just to get the .1 redirected to the mains.

I don't like the Yamaha's SQ on coax digital connections either so that's out.

Until now I've had hardly any interest in the compexities of surround sound. So I really haven't done much reasearch around the subject of LFE redirection. 

I cannot imagine many others are using their DVDPs quite like this.


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

im familier with the yamaha (although never used one) and i think ive got a pretty good idea of how your system is wired up.

With the sub set to off, im convinced the .1 should be sent to the front L&R, perhaps one to ask nad.

How i would go about your system would be to find a decent processor, since you use active crossovers, all you would need to do is build a switch to flick between your naim pre amp for stereo duty, and the processor for for movies.

With regards to sound quality during movies, a good processor should be easily as good as the decoding in the dvdp.

Its either that or build or find a 5.1 preamp, since hd-dvd etc are going to be decoding the new formats in the player, it looks like we are going back to 5.1 analogue connections untill everything has hdmi.

just some ideas, ive messed with many systems, stereo, valve, old speakers, new speakers, and the one thing ive found, to make me completely satisfied, i cannot mix stereo with av, im much happier with an over the top "cinema" sound for my movies, and one day, when i have space, ill assemble a stereo system again.

Perhaps you need an naim AV% or whatever its called :R 

i wish i could have an ib, but the only solution for me would be to have it in the floor space, which is about as sound proof as paper.

edd


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

Thanks edd. 

The problem seems to be the choice (and price) of a "good" processor.

Given that I can change from film surround to CD at the turn of a selector knob on my preamp. I'm wondering what a processor will do for me that my hybrid triamped DVDP can't do already on films? Or were you thinking of the missing .1 bass? 

BTW: Is there a problem with the Forum server? I've had terrible trouble getting back in and wait for literally minutes for my posts to appear after submitting them.:scratch:


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

i was purely thinking in terms of finding the .1, and increasing general performance/quality of movie play back.

yes, processors are expensive unfortunatly, £500 plus realy for an old meridian, lexicon or ead. i currently use a reciver as a pre amp, although a £3000 reciever. I prefered my old processor, but the reciver is far more flexible.

at the moment, i cant think of a way of checking if the .1 is infact being routed to the l&r when the sub is set to off and the mains set to large, other than asking nad.

out of interest, when you say tri amped, are you running your tweeters on seperate amps? ive always fancied an active crossover system, never got round to trying one.

edd

edit: yes ive been having problems accesing the site


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

Triamped in my context means:

1 x EP2500 dual mono (IB)
1 x Naim NAP180 stereo (main speakers) 
1 x E800 (2 x rear speakers) 

I suppose this qualifies as triamping? Never thought about it much. 

What do you call a system with all your amps? LOUD?


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

i took the reference of triamping as you used an amp for you sub, an amp for the mids of your fronts then an amp as the tweeter (a common naim settup with snaxos). active crossovers are very effective compared to passive.

Ive never realy tested how loud my system goes, i doubt my speakers and current sub are up to much.

I have a new sub on the way, i may try for max spl then, the only issue is, my amps are more than capable of annhilating my speakers :devil: 

which name pre are you using? ive had the pleasure of listening to a wide varity of naim gear, one of my hifi dealers was at one point there largest seller, and her had quite a collection, including some very low serial numbers that naim were trying to get back off him.

edd


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

Hi edd

I've emailed NAD for an explanation for the non-redirection of Sub bass to Mains in the T533.

I'm using the half-width NAC72 with Hicap PS and the NAP180 left over from my LP12/Ittok/DL304 days. I never listen to vinyl any more. (it just makes me unhappy being reminded how comparitively ****** CD sounds. So I just planted the TT on top of a filing cabinet a couple of years ago and now try to ignore it completely) 

My active crossover is the Behringer CX2310.

The IB runs in "parallel" with my Mission 753F Mains (set to Large in the DVDP) and all crossed over at about 80Hz by the CX2310. There is no real 80Hz notch but it sounds and measures well with whatever the controls are pointing to in this area.

I suppose I really need more power going to my speakers to maximise the sonic superiority of the IB. Since we have regularly listened (fullrange) to the 753Fs for hours at a steady 100dB+ on Metallica without the '180 going "pop" I don't think we have much to worry about except a bit of extra headroom. Being deprived of the lower registers probably helps the Missions along. 

If we carry on nattering like this we'll end up locked in the chat room! :laugh:


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

ive always had a soft spot for mission, well pre 2000 realy, the 75 line were the last of the good speakers if you ask me, the 753fs being wonderful.

always prefered the half width gear, ive had quite a few brands, a nytech pre/power, and ion systems obelisk, a cyrus integrated, even some crimsons which were a funny shape, batter powered pre that was, wonderful things.

I only realy listen to vinyl, unless its a recent release or a sacd or something.

ive added my msn tag to the forum incase you use that, might be easyer since this has decended into chat, which is no bad thing :R 

edd


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

I doubt we're seriously compromising the Forum bandwidth. 

They're all asleep anyway! :devil: 

I don't even know what an msn tag is! Do you mean Messenger? :scratch: 

Haven't bothered with that so far. Wouldn't know where to start. 

Not sure I want anything to do with the evil empire!


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

yes messenger, its handy to keep track of people so i use it. the windows messenger thats built into xp is a nice cut down version, very little nonsence but a good way to chat.

that is unless you dont use windows :raped: with naim gear, you could well have a :raped: MAC:raped: :bigsmile: :bigsmile: 

edd


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

Nope! XP Home came in the box. Messenger won't open in Firefox. 

I'm getting all sorts of **** error messages from the GREAT MONOPOLY IN THE SKY!

Looks like we'll just have to talk about Home Theater and pretend nobody is listening.

(There's nobody there anyway! We are simply a construct of The Matrix. Just a few strands of code snagged on a spur) :devil:


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

messenger is a seperate application, i wouldnt worry about it, we can always move to e-mail if we get moned at.

Taking you inspiration and you mentioning metalica almost as much you do your ib, i dug out the spl meter and put on some epic face melting monster riff rock, queens of the stone age, songs for the death, measered an avereage of 100db with peaks of 110, neither the mains or the sub seemed that stressed in terms of excursion, but my spleen was on the point of bursting, and advantage of a small room is that it doesnt take much to pressure load it.

i realuy recomend this album if you dont want your organs intact. im not much of a rocker these days, tend to listen to dylan or jazz, or something easy like jack johnson (wheres me slippers :bigsmile: )

edd


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm not the rocker! It's my wife's new taste in music ever since we imported the SVS. :devil: 

I'm more classical organ, electric folk/celtic, Mike Oldfield, Knopfler & almost anything classical. 

We've been watching a lot of films over the last few months. Eight to ten hired films per weekend is quite normal. 

Though the SVS really started our interest in watching films at home the IB has added to the enjoyment.


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

i watch many more films than i listen to music. i work from home so im lucky i have the oportunity. this is why my system is av focused rather than music.

you will have to sugest some classical, one area my lp and cd collection is sorely lacking. (i have dvorak new world symphoney, vivaldy 4 seasons, and em some mozart chamber music, oh and holst the planets :R )

mike oldfield is a faveourite of mine to, i have pretty much every album except for a couple of recent ones, i dont think i have guitar. the 4.0 sacd of tubular bells is a faveourite posssesion.:bigsmile: 

I also like thinks like king crimson, emerson lake and palmer, fripp and eno, jean michtel jarr, vangeliss. I adore 70s rock, especialy jethro tull, led zepplin, thin lizzy, i have a very varied taste.

edd


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

Mornin' edd

It seems we share broad tastes in music. 

"Guitars" is one of _our_ favorites. The only M.O. that SWMBO actually likes. Providing it is loud enough! Millenium Bell has some serious bass for those who can handle it. 

I loved Jethro Tull on vinyl but really can't get into it on CD.

Classical is a "love it or hate it" situation. I wouldn't dare suggest anything. Your local library is a good place to start. If you don't like something you don't have to keep it.

Watched two fun films in tandem last nght: "The Man" and "Be Cool". No bass effects. Though it didn't seem to matter. Why do they always play the best music when the film is finished? :laugh:


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

i keep meaning to pick up guitar, just one of those albums you always forget to buy. My wife isnt too keen on m.o. because her father is a huge fan also, its a ledgend he played tubularbels so much it started playing backwards.

my local libary is terrible, there is very little music i dont like, country and western seems to drive me up the wall, well, the generic "ride em cowboy i got a big rig and im drivin home to you" rubbish. i even like some of that "freeform" jazz, its a bit kooky, but its pretty cool.

I think ill start with some of those rca living stereo sacds, they seem to cover a broad selection ane be decent recodrings, this is the issue i have with classical, i know i like suymphony number 9, but there is about 30 recordings of it, i never know where to start.

I dont think j.tull was ever recorded that well,. especialy the 70s albums, quite thin sounding, no dynamics, and the cds have never seemed to been mastered well, all they do is emphasise the thinness, you dont tap your feet for some reason. luckily, all my tull is on vinyl. saw them live recently with roger chapman (shadow on the wall on crisis by m.o.) that was an experience, i was blown away.

ive not seen "the man" but "be cool" was a fun little film. as for music at the end of a film, the muisic at the end of kingdom of heaven is better than the film. ive recently enjoyed inside man, and v for vendetta, although the latters bass was dissapointing, perhaps your ib will fix that.

edd


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

V for Vendetta was an interesting film and I vaguely remember the bass being rather decent at odd moments.


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## Bruce (Sep 14, 2006)

IIRC, the specs for DD include a -10dB reduction on all re-directed bass.

edd, that could be why you need to boost the sub output.

So this means any bass that doesn't come from 0.1 output port (DVDP or 5.1 Proc/Rcvr) will likely include this -10dB reduction.


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

in my case i use the .1, 

What i was refering to was the 5.1 analogue outs from my denon, when you run the internal dvd testones (not the amps) the sub out level (on the dvd player) needs to be set at around +10, it has an option called sub +10 as well, i think this is something to do with sacd to be honest.

edd


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## Bruce (Sep 14, 2006)

I can't find my DD documentation, but I remember a long discussion on AVS about this 2-3 years ago that discussed the specs (with Dobly labs, which I also visited in San Francisco) indicating a -10dB for redirected bass. 

In my old setup I used bass redirection for all bass to my main L&R and then used a highend electronic crossover (symmetrical 24dB Linkwitz-Wiley @60Hz) to split the signal between my Dynaudio mains and a BFD to my M&K powered sub. I needed to boost the bass to get it to the same reference SPL level.


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

Bruce said:


> I needed to boost the bass to get it to the same reference SPL level.


This raises an interesting point... how does one judge reference levels when using a modded stereo system? 

I sometimes use the SPL meter to get an average SPL on dialogue but this is totally meaningless in terms of the Reference levels commonly referred to in AVR terms.

My old Yamaha DSP E800 3.1+2 amp/processor has a strange range of figures around the "Volume" control knob: From infinity via 60 to 0 at full clockwise.

It is rarely we can manage to listen much above 28 @ 10 o'clock on the control. Should we do so the dialogue becomes deafening: At least 90dB(C-slow) average! 

I cannot imagine these figures are directly related to normal AVR reference levels.

Has anyone seen an online SPL scale of reference levels with which I could compare my average SPL meter readings?


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## Bruce (Sep 14, 2006)

Back to the old "reference level" discussion. It only has relevance to a DD or DTS source, because the recording studio balanced the original source material to a specific "reference level". A PCM stereo source has no such mastering criteria in the recording studio.

If you read through some of the technical documentation on DD you will find very specific rules for how this should be handled in the recording studio and what this causes to happen in the playback environment (our homes).

Your playback equipment's markings (volume scale) has little/no representation with the actual reference level playback volume, until it's calibrated in the following initial setup instance:

When initially calibrating the system's various speaker output levels for DD, it was normally recommended to first set the DD receiver/processor's volume control output level at 0dB, and then use the individual speaker level adjustemnts in the setup menu to adjust the speaker output to the 75dB (or 85dB) level on the SPL meter depending on the specific DD test/setup DVD you are using.

This sorta means many people can compare how loud they listen to their systems by relating how much less than reference level they listen. Example: Bob might say he listens mostly at -20 on the volume control, while Gary says he listens at -10 and bruce listens at -2. These are all volume control markings indicating how much less than "reference level" they are listening to their systems. They may not be directly comparable, but give some indication of how loud the playback is.

IIRC, not all receiver's worked this way (with the 0dB volume control) and I think Yamaha frequently deviated from this standard.


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

I wasn't taking about stereo. 

I was actually referring to DD & DTS 5.1 where an AV receiver is not used. 

How do I relate my own system levels to +/- Reference level without a conventional AVR gain/volume control? 

My system still produces similar levels to a 5.1 AVR.(or better) 

So there must be some direct relationship between SPLs and Reference(+/-) that I can compare it to.

EDIT: May I assume that my system is at reference level when I detect 85dB on pink noise from a suitable test disk?

Is it really as simple as that?


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## Bruce (Sep 14, 2006)

Chris,

Maybe I'm confused about your setup. What do you use to decode DD/DTS (AV processor, DVD player)? Is it still the Yamaha DSP E800 3.1?

That device should have a 5.1 (or 3.1) speaker level calibration setup menu somewhere. 

Every DD/DTS decoding device should have a way to calibrate the speakers output level to a "standard reference level output". You do this one of two ways:

1) With the internally generated reference level output tone (typically @75dB) in the speaker level calibration menu of most receivers and an SPL meter, unless a mic is included. The new ones provide a mic to do this procedure automatically without an SPL meter.

2) A calibration DVD with the "reference level" calibration tones on it and a radio shack SPL meter. The AVIA DVD with 85dB "reference level" and the other Joe Kane DVD called VE or "Video Essential" with a 75dB "reference level".

In both cases, you adjust each specific speaker's output level from the DD/DTS decoder device's calibration menu to produce a 75dB reading on the SPL meter at you listening position (that's 6 output level calibration events for a 5.1 system). For a 3.1 system that would be 4 calibration events; left main, center, right main, and sub.

Once the "system" is calibrated (all 5.1 speakers to the same 75dB or 85dB reference level) then whatever volume level is represented on your control device during a regular listening session ( -20 or -10 or -2) represents some level of volume below reference level (I would hesitate to call these -20dB, -10dB, etc because they probably are not). It may not be directly comparable to someone elses volume for the same source material, but it sorta gets you in the ballpark for comparison.


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

Hi Bruce

I'm using an old Yamaha DSP E800 5.1 processor with 3 channels of built-in amplification. It has no reference level test tones but does offer pink noise calibration tests. I have checked the manual and cannot find Reference levels mentioned.

I also have "The Calibrator" DVD with a whole range of test tones and pink noise tests. Some of these pink noise tests are listed as -18dB. I am trying to judge how I should use this level to match the volume knob to "Reference" level. 

I have calibrated my 5 speakers and the IB sub to be at exactly the same level on the SPL meter at the listening position at ear height.


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## Bruce (Sep 14, 2006)

Chris,

My recommentaion is to get either the AVIA or Video Essentials "Dolby calibration" DVD and a radio shack SPL meter. The process of using the 5.1 DD test tones from the DVD depends on how your Yamaha handles it's own volume control during the speaker level adjustment in the setup menu.

Many processors have you set the volume control to the 0 (zero) setting (highest volume) and use the processor's setup menu's individual speaker level adjustments to get that speaker's output (from the VE calibration DVD's pink noise) to register at 75dB on the SPL meter (or 85dB for the AVIA DVD). The SPL meter is at your listening position.

If, on the other hand, the Yamaha more or less disables where it's volume control is set before calibrating ( i.e. sets itself internally to zero regardless where you have it set manually) then just continue to use the calibration DVD and SPL meter as above for each speaker.

Hope that made sense.

I find the VE or AVIA calibration DVD to be a much better calibration tool than any of the noise-tones included with the earlier receiver's and processors like your Yamaha DSP E800.


You are looking for a set of pink noise test tones, one for each of the 5.1 speakers, that will output a signal that should represent 75dB or 85dB on the SPL meter at your listening position. This must also be done from within the processor's setup menu for speaker level matching. Anything else is not DD calibration.

It doesn't sound like you have calibrated your DD system correctly from what you describe you hear.

The calibration DVDs are actually recorded at -30dB (VE) or -20dB (AVIA) below actual reference level volume (a maximum of 105dB peaks at your listening position). When you are listening at full reference level it can be loud. Many systems can't play cleanly at reference level. I listened at -2 or 0 on my volume control (close to or full reference), but I also had big amps and a large room with cathedral ceilings (3000 cubic feet). My normal SPL levels were at about 84-90dB with peaks to 105dB. The peaks were mostly caused by bass.


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

Bruce

You worry too much. 

I'm quite happy with my speaker calibration using either of my RS meters. I find "The Calibrator" DVD much more accurate than the Yamaha's internal pink noise calibration signals.

BTW: I think you have just answered my question about reference level. 

If Avia @ -20dB expects 85dB on the SPL meter at the listening position at Reference level ... then all I need to do is calibrate at 87dB. Then note the position on the volume control and I will have found Reference level on my system. :T

Thanks


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## Bruce (Sep 14, 2006)

Bingo !! We have a winner.

You are correct.

Who manufactures the "Calibrator" DVD ?


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

The Calibrator is now a 3 disk set from a company called "outpost". They also do HD DVDs of aquariums, shark tanks and similar subject matter. :bigsmile: 

This is where I bought my 1 disk original. Even in Danish the details are probably understandable.  The instructions and pack details are only in English.

There are set up tests for HD and normal TVs & screens, 6.1 & stereo sound set up and probably a noisy demo. The have sinewave sweeps, pink noise and filtered pink noise etc.

http://www.hifiklubben.com/DK/Produ...N%B4TUNE_The_Calibrator_6_1_DVD_software_.htm

Cost is around £20 UK pounds (equivalent) over here.

Perhaps you ought to seek out a local stockist if you are interested. There are different TV standards in different places in the world which might make a European DVD unsuitable.


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