# Adire Apex project discussion



## filtor1 (Feb 10, 2009)

This is a narrowed focused discussion inspired by Owen Bartley's WMTMWW thread. Thank you Owen for getting the proverbial juices flowing. 

A huge thank you to HTS. Ideas flow freely here and I have never felt, even in spite of my knowledge level, intimidated to post a question. Excellent job! 

Thank you to Dan Wiggins for making the plans available and Dave (dyohn) for sending them to me. I appreciate it.

Here are my goals: Learn. Get in over my head. Build a dedicated 2-channel stereo experience. Fill my listening area with great sounding music. Overkill. Oh, and learn. 

I am going to break this up to not make a text heavy post.

1. Driver selection. The Extremis mid woofer and tweeter, to my understanding, are no longer available. It was suggested in Owen's thread that the Exodus Anarchy would be a suitable drop in replacement for the mid. A suitable tweeter will also need to be chosen. I am open to suggestions here. Is a ribbon the right answer? Is there a "better" mid for this application?

Budget for this stage: For the mid woofer, I would like to try and stay under $70 (Anarchy) or lower. For the tweeter I am a little more flexible as I will only need 2. 

I have more questions, but think this is a good starting point because the enclosure and crossover design is dependent on these choices. Have fun with this. I am depending on your experience and opinion as I am an amateur. I am not fearful of throwing poor results out and trying again. I understand this is part of the process. 

Thank you,

Chris


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

The tweeter and wide-band midrange drivers originally used in the Apex design are available from Creative Sound Solutions. Bob may also have an enclosure for them, or at least a CNC routed front baffle. Replacing the Extremis with the Anarchy should be a very trivial difference

Tweeter selection is a taste thing, actually. I like the sound of ribbons for HT-style applications, but prefer fabric domes for music-oriented application.

One possible substitute for the WR125 in the original design is the M130X from GR Research, although it has a different Qts and I haven't modeled what the difference would create in this design.


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## filtor1 (Feb 10, 2009)

dyohn said:


> The tweeter and wide-band midrange drivers originally used in the Apex design are available from Creative Sound Solutions. Bob may also have an enclosure for them, or at least a CNC routed front baffle. Replacing the Extremis with the Anarchy should be a very trivial difference
> 
> Tweeter selection is a taste thing, actually. I like the sound of ribbons for HT-style applications, but prefer fabric domes for music-oriented application.
> 
> One possible substitute for the WR125 in the original design is the M130X from GR Research, although it has a different Qts and I haven't modeled what the difference would create in this design.


What is the model # of the tweeter used? I found the midrange driver on css and am happy with the cost of implementation. A cnc front baffle is becoming a very attractive option. I have access to one and my cousin who has 12 axis experience, but he is in Pa. I will see if he is interested in seeing what he can do. If not, I will definitely utilize Bob to source the baffle.

I think I need to go find someone that is willing to let me demo a set of ribbons. I have always been a fan of fabric dome tweeters for music as well. From the BA CR85's with the silk dome tweeters in my HT to the Rainbow CAL27 silk domes I use in my car. Would going a different route completely change the crossover design?


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

The tweeter in the Apex is the RT1 from CSS. 

FYI, the resistances specified on the Xover files in series with the caps and inductors are not actual resisters, but represent the target series resistance of the reactive component.


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## filtor1 (Feb 10, 2009)

dyohn said:


> The tweeter in the Apex is the RT1 from CSS.
> 
> FYI, the resistances specified on the Xover files in series with the caps and inductors are not actual resisters, but represent the target series resistance of the reactive component.


Cool. I am making a parts list.

Just so I understand the Xover component explanation. Ex: On the Apex 2 Midrange XO, R2011, R2021, R2031, R2051, R2061, R2071, & R2072 are not actual resistors.

I was an assembly tech and built MRI head coils for Siemens, GE, and Philips. So I have a basic understanding of the diagrams, component values, and functions. Are there any other things I should know?


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

Oh sorry, I misspoke in the previous post. The resistance shown in series with the inductors represents the max DC resistance of the coil, but the other resisters shown are actual resisters. So, in the mid XO, R2011, R2061 and R2071 are actual resisters. The others are the resistance of the associated coil. Dan did not model the ESR of the caps.

The only other thing you should know is the filters do not show the physical number of drivers they are connected to. For example, the tweeter XO is for the single tweeter, the mid XO is for the two midrange drivers in parallel. As far as the woofer XO I don't remember how the four woofers are wired. I'll ask Wiggins and get back to you.


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## filtor1 (Feb 10, 2009)

dyohn said:


> Oh sorry, I misspoke in the previous post. The resistance shown in series with the inductors represents the max DC resistance of the coil, but the other resisters shown are actual resisters. So, in the mid XO, R2011, R2061 and R2071 are actual resisters. The others are the resistance of the associated coil. Dan did not model the ESR of the caps.
> 
> The only other thing you should know is the filters do not show the physical number of drivers they are connected to. For example, the tweeter XO is for the single tweeter, the mid XO is for the two midrange drivers in parallel. As far as the woofer XO I don't remember how the four woofers are wired. I'll ask Wiggins and get back to you.


Ok, I appreciate the information.


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## filtor1 (Feb 10, 2009)

Man, finding examples is proving to be difficult.  I like it.

Here is one build I found. 

http://www.steinaudio.com/apexpage.html


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

I confirmed that the 4 woofers are wired in series/parallel - series-connect the upper pair, the lower pair, then parallel the two sets. 

The ambiance WR125 on the back in the original design is optional and just run full-range with an L-pad if desired.


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## filtor1 (Feb 10, 2009)

dyohn said:


> I confirmed that the 4 woofers are wired in series/parallel - series-connect the upper pair, the lower pair, then parallel the two sets.
> 
> The ambiance WR125 on the back in the original design is optional and just run full-range with an L-pad if desired.


Perfect. I appreciate the new information. I am making a parts list now and seeing as this would be my first "real" HT build, is there a hard parts list available.


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

filtor1 said:


> Perfect. I appreciate the new information. I am making a parts list now and seeing as this would be my first "real" HT build, is there a hard parts list available.


Bob Reimer at CSS may have a complete BOM available as he used to sell these as a kit.


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

Subscribed as I would like to see these built and hopefully measured. David has piqued my curiosity with them and they're on a 'maybe' list for some bedroom speakers later.


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## filtor1 (Feb 10, 2009)

I spoke to my cousin, unfortunately he doesn't have any authorization to use his cnc for personal use.  I think I will be sending Bob an email Monday to inquire about getting the baffles done. 

I need a few pay checks under my belt before this would get started. Got the OK from the wife, even after showing her how big they really are.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Way to go Chris!! I'm glad someone's getting to make some dream speakers at least. I will be following this one along as inspiration. 

So how big ARE they going to be??


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## filtor1 (Feb 10, 2009)

48" tall
10" wide
16" deep

I have a huge AC unit that I bought a few months ago and plan on selling it to fund this project.  I had the Trane sales guy come to the house and he quoted us $8900 for a this new unit installed. I bet I could easily make this a zero sum project with this. Going to give it a shot anyway. I feel like a little kid when I look at the plans and the parts list.


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

There are some pictures of the Apex and the parts from the kit on Audio Circle from the old Raw Acoustics site (Raw is now out of business.) http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=album;id=1026


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## Creative Sound (Mar 29, 2007)

Hi,

The tweeter used was the RAW104.5 and the best overall Apex implementation was the version Al Wooley did using WR125S (later FR125SR) and his own crossover. Unfortunately Al is no longer in the business.

Bob
Creative Sound Solutions


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

Hello Bob. Wiggins suggested using your RT1 tweeter (and of course the WR125s.)


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## filtor1 (Feb 10, 2009)

Hi Bob, glad you are here. Do you have a BOM for this I might use to get my parts list together?


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## Creative Sound (Mar 29, 2007)

dyohn said:


> Hello Bob. Wiggins suggested using your RT1 tweeter (and of course the WR125s.)


Hi,

Yes the RT1 is better given the lower distortion and more robust construction of the newer honeycomb ribbon element. Al also did a version using the SDX7s with a slightly larger/deeper cabinet and the slot port was tuned to 24Hz. I would think 4 Anarchys could be tuned similarly.

I have a few of the original WR125S 8 ohm drivers left though if you're doing crossovers from scratch you could use the 16 ohm WR125STs. I have a rectangular face plate for the RT1 which would match with the straight-sided STs and get the centers closer together.

Bob


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## filtor1 (Feb 10, 2009)

dyohn said:


> There are some pictures of the Apex and the parts from the kit on Audio Circle from the old Raw Acoustics site (Raw is now out of business.) http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=album;id=1026


Wow! What a beautiful specimen.  I am positive my fit & finish will be nowhere close to this, but what the . I will try anyway.


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## Creative Sound (Mar 29, 2007)

filtor1 said:


> Hi Bob, glad you are here. Do you have a BOM for this I might use to get my parts list together?


I think I could dig up the original crossovers that Dan did but I think Al had some issues with them and eventually did his own. I can provide tweeters and WR/FR drivers and if you put in the rear FR an 8 ohm L-Pad is readily available.

I know that while Al is not in the business he does watch some of the forums.

Bob


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## filtor1 (Feb 10, 2009)

Creative Sound said:


> I think I could dig up the original crossovers that Dan did but I think Al had some issues with them and eventually did his own. I can provide tweeters and WR/FR drivers and if you put in the rear FR an 8 ohm L-Pad is readily available.
> 
> I know that while Al is not in the business he does watch some of the forums.
> 
> Bob


I have the crossover design that Dan did. David sent me a copy. 

I would love to get Al's input on this, especially if I could avoid some crossover issues.

I am still undecided if I will use or delete the rear FR driver as I don't have enough information to support either decision. I will need to sort that out as well.

Thank you for your input Bob, I really appreciate it.


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## 1Michael (Nov 2, 2006)

Now thats the kind of finish I have been trying to get for years...and failed.:rant::rolleyesno:


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## filtor1 (Feb 10, 2009)

buggers said:


> Now thats the kind of finish I have been trying to get for years...and failed.:rant::rolleyesno:


It kinda makes me want to do a smaller project first to gather some experience.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Those things are gorgeous. What a great finish. They look so good I ALMOST don't even care how they sound... almost.


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## buzzardmountain (Oct 6, 2009)

Subscribing


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## Voodoo Rufus (Feb 24, 2010)

Was there any progress on this project?

I've been toying with the idea of an Apex with the SDX7s and replacing the tweeter with one of the Ushers used in the other Exodus based kits. Has anyone done an MTM WR125/Usher combination?

Does anyone still have the crossover plans for the Apex IIs?


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## Creative Sound (Mar 29, 2007)

Voodoo Rufus said:


> Was there any progress on this project?
> 
> I've been toying with the idea of an Apex with the SDX7s and replacing the tweeter with one of the Ushers used in the other Exodus based kits. Has anyone done an MTM WR125/Usher combination?
> 
> Does anyone still have the crossover plans for the Apex IIs?


Hi,

I can provide the WR125ST/Usher MTM details and parts. Just sold a pair to a customer recently. This was to be an Exodus 241 but was never released.

Not sure what Al is up to these days but he did post on AVS forum some time ago regarding CNC cut layered sub cabinets.

Bob


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