# Upgrade advice: Center channel woes



## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

Hi folks, I have a question perhaps you can help me with.

I have a Klipsch 7.1 setup (all Klipsch with SVS sub):

Klipsch Reference RF-35 Floorstanding mains
Klipsch Reference RC-35 Center Channel Speaker
Klipsch RS-41 II Surround Speakers
Klipsch RB-42 II Back Speakers
SVS PB12-NSD Subwoofer

Powered by a Denon AVR-3312ci Receiver

I really loved the sound from my system at my condo, but since I moved to a house with a very open floor plan (living room opens into kitchen behind, and family room to one side), I've been less happy, primarily with the way the room just eats dialog from the center channel. I did re-run Audyssey when I moved, of course, and do so each time I make a change.

Center channel used to be located above the TV with my older Mits projection TV, now it's below my new plasma (see photo). Lowering it, at the new house, actually helped, but not enough.

Both places have hardwood floors, and the same seating arrangement. Viewing position was 14' at the condo, now it's 11' or 9' (depending on whether I pull it forward on it's mounting armature). Left and Right speakers are a couple of feet farther apart than they were before, but the basic triangle setup is pretty good.

Distances are different, but I would think improved over the farther distance previously. I think acoustic treatments are going to be my only shot at saving this setup, but I was hoping. :scratch:

I can crank the volume to painful levels but the center dialog is still hard to make out. The difference from my last home, with the same amp and speakers (different sub but not applicable), is very noticeable. Sound is definitely coming out, it's just getting swallowed somehow. I intend to run some measurements and look into some acoustic treatments, but I am also open to considering other ways to improve.


















1) Replacements/upgrades for the front speakers (L/C/R): my speakers are a little old at this point (8-9 years... not THAT old, but no longer current models). Would upgrading to current-model speakers be much improvement? My RF-35s have 8" drivers, so the seemingly comparable speaker in the current lineup is is RF-82 II (and I guess RC-62 II center to replace the RC-35?). Would I see much difference, or perhaps I'd need to move all the way up to the larger drivers of the RF-7 II? (Bass isn't really an issue, though, given the SVS sub) As you can see in the photo, my Standout Design-inspired TV cabinet (made by yours truly) doesn't really have enough space for the monster size RC-64 II center, unless I move the wallmount for the TV up the 9" or so to clear it, but (a) I'd rather not put more big holes in my wall, and (b) that would really mess with the overall visual look... plus, the RC-35 used to be fine, and I'm pretty sure it's not blown out, so something clearly changed acoustically. Or is it just time to look at an alternative to Klipsch? I REALLY love the look of the copper drivers (and the sound, until this move)... And just as important, my designer wife actually likes the look, which makes life with big components much easier. But I also really love my Paradigm-based secondary system in the MBR, so I'm open to alternatives, especially if the speaker cabinets are nicer than the Klipsches offer (my one complaint).

2) An external amp, such as the Emotiva XPA-3 or XPA-5: Is there much point? Klipsch speakers are already so efficient, but I've seen mixed reports on amp power upgrades. Some report that the Klipsch speakers really open up with a good solid power upgrade, and others say that until you are at or beyond reference levels, there's no point to adding power unless your amp is complete rubbish. The Denon amp is not top of the line, but it's not quite rubbish, either. Any point to such an addition, with Klipsch speakers? I really only crank things at "event" movies... most general TV/movie watching is between -30 and -15, depending on the source and viewing material (a couple of components are hotter than others). I think even at viewing parties of "event"-class action movies, the highest I've had things is -5.

Seems clear that first order of business should really be acoustic treatments, but until I'm able to get things measured with REW and word back from Bryan Pape at Gik (I've just started the ball rolling there), I'm looking into other ways I might improve my sound. I also have limited space to work with re acoustics, given my layout (and WAF issues with our living room), which may hamper that route.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Thats a fairly big space to fill and I wonder if the Denon is just giving up on power output. Its rated to do 105watts per ch all channels driven so I dont think it would do better then maybe 85watts of real power. Even though the Klipsch are easy speakers to drive I wonder if adding a two channel amp to the mains would eliminate the possible distortion your hearing in the centre channel.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

I seem to recall JBrax hitting this same issue and he used the Onkyo intellivolume function to bump up dialog. Does the Denon have a feature similar?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
In addition to the above sage advice, I would also experiment with moving the Center Channel slightly forward where it is slightly hanging over the shelf. I use a BDI Deploy Max Stand where I have removed both the shelves to allow my Martin Logan Stage to fit right under my Panasonic TC-P60GT50 and have the Stage about 8 inches forward from it being flush and it really made a big difference.

With the Klipschs being so efficient, I would think the Denon should have sufficient power. However, going with a larger model, you would be able to generate more sound. I would also consider looking into Room Treatments such as Bass Traps and so forth. Jonathan Scull's "Fine Tunes" that is a series of articles devoted to such things is fantastic and is available free of charge at Stereophile's Website.
Cheers,
JJ


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> Thats a fairly big space to fill and I wonder if the Denon is just giving up on power output. Its rated to do 105watts per ch all channels driven so I dont think it would do better then maybe 85watts of real power. Even though the Klipsch are easy speakers to drive I wonder if adding a two channel amp to the mains would eliminate the possible distortion your hearing in the centre channel.


So it sounds like you're in favor of giving the Emotiva a shot? (haven't decided if the 3 channel or 5 channel is best... I'd think the Denon would have no issues powering the small surrounds, and my surround experience is excellent)



ALMFamily said:


> I seem to recall JBrax hitting this same issue and he used the Onkyo intellivolume function to bump up dialog. Does the Denon have a feature similar?


I don't think they have a dialog-specific feature, but there may be something along those lines. I usually try to process the signal as little as possible, however (other than Audyssey, of course). I occasionally play with the night mode to restrict the dynamic range when I'm watch late at night after my wife has turned in, to avoid angry shouting :devil: but that's about it.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

KalaniP said:


> So it sounds like you're in favor of giving the Emotiva a shot?


For the price it may be a good option. No need for a 5 channel amp but the XPA 200 would be great.


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> In addition to the above sage advice, I would also experiment with moving the Center Channel slightly forward where it is slightly hanging over the shelf. I use a BDI Deploy Max Stand where I have removed both the shelves to allow my Martin Logan Stage to fit right under my Panasonic TC-P60GT50 and have the Stage about 8 inches forward from it being flush and it really made a big difference.
> 
> With the Klipschs being so efficient, I would think the Denon should have sufficient power. However, going with a larger model, you would be able to generate more sound. I would also consider looking into Room Treatments such as Bass Traps and so forth. Jonathan Scull's "Fine Tunes" that is a series of articles devoted to such things is fantastic and is available free of charge at Stereophile's Website.
> ...


Hmm. Not sure if my wife will be pleased about a speaker hanging half off the shelf, but I can experiment, I guess.

I'll check out those articles: http://www.stereophile.com/category/fine-tunes


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> For the price it may be a good option. No need for a 5 channel amp but the XPA 200 would be great.


I'm thinking the 3 channel XPA-3 would be better, since those are the three most important speakers, and in particular, the center channel seems to be what's giving me trouble. More power, too... 200w/ch vs. 150w/ch. More money, admittedly, but I think likely worth it.

Not sure how I'm going to convince my wife that I "need" to drop another $600-700 on stereo equipment. LOL I have her convinced some acoustic treatments are in order, but I don't know that she's prepared for this one. Cross my fingers!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

If you take the mains off the receiver your really reducing its load, the XPA 3 in my opinion is overkill.


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> If you take the mains off the receiver your really reducing its load, the XPA 3 in my opinion is overkill.


The Denon would still be pushing 5 channels, however (one of which is really important), as opposed to only 4 extremely easy channels with the 3-channel amp.

Food for thought, however. The price is certainly a lot easier to sell. And the smaller size is less intrusive.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

KalaniP said:


> Hmm. Not sure if my wife will be pleased about a speaker hanging half off the shelf, but I can experiment, I guess.
> 
> I'll check out those articles: http://www.stereophile.com/category/fine-tunes


I am talking about having it just being slightly over flush. That way you have a better chance of overcoming the acoustic disadvantage of having it setup in on a shelf. I am lucky that the Stage also offers the ability to adjust the height to where it can be aimed at ear level.


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

Jungle Jack said:


> I am talking about having it just being slightly over flush. That way you have a better chance of overcoming the acoustic disadvantage of having it setup in on a shelf. I am lucky that the Stage also offers the ability to adjust the height to where it can be aimed at ear level.


Oh, ok. I can experiment with "slightly". You mentioned 8" forward, originally, which wasn't going to work out. :T


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## fkjr2 (Dec 22, 2012)

Why don't you increase the audio on the center under the amp?

I increased my center to +4
(Def tech pro center 2000 & Integra 30.4 dtr)

Works great


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

fkjr2 said:


> Why don't you increase the audio on the center under the amp?
> 
> I increased my center to +4
> (Def tech pro center 2000 & Integra 30.4 dtr)
> ...


Too much and it throws the rest of the sound out of balance. I believe I have already bumped it up to +2.

I'll see about re-running Audyssey tonight and tinkering again, though.


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## fkjr2 (Dec 22, 2012)

KalaniP said:


> Too much and it throws the rest of the sound out of balance. I believe I have already bumped it up to +2.
> 
> I'll see about re-running Audyssey tonight and tinkering again, though.


Gotcha. I guess I prefer louder vocals to the other sounds. Although it all still sounds pretty balanced even though I bumped center to +4


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

KalaniP said:


> Oh, ok. I can experiment with "slightly". You mentioned 8" forward, originally, which wasn't going to work out. :T


Hello,
Indeed. The only reason I can have my CC so far out is due to the Stand that comes with the CC. It is also quite a bit larger than many CC's as well. I was simply discussing what I had done. Just by moving it as far out as possible really should make a positive difference.
Cheers,
JJ


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## wheatenterrier (Jan 16, 2009)

I had my center located much like yours on a shelf in a stand and even with it sticking out a few inches it sounded terrible.

Placing it on top of the TV stand still sticking out a few inches made a huge difference. 
I know you would have to raise your TV up which is a hassle but if it bugs you enough its worth doing. What's a few more holes in the wall? You can easily repair them.


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## fwiler (Mar 5, 2012)

I would do a test with the center above the TV or out in front of the cabinet. Then at least you can narrow down the problem. I don't know if your center is rear ported, but if it is then it won't sound good where it is. 
Let us know what you find out.


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