# Blu ray player video signal loss



## Doc

:help::help::help::help::help::help:

My setup: 
Projector: Vidikron vision model 85 (essentially Runco RS1100 or similar)
Blu ray player - 3 different models (Sony BD59, Panasonic BDT220, Samsung 6500) - connected via HDMI 2
HTPC/Server: Atom based xbmc/openelec version connected to projector via HDMI 1

I have my vidikron projector for about 2-3 years. I have enjoyed it thoroughly. I have played blu ray and SD content using blu ray DVD player and my server. However, few months back my Samsung BD player appeared to have failed. As while playing - in about 10-15 minutes I would lose video but audio continues. I though the player is bad and got a Panasonic. It played just fine. However, during the switch I discovered the HDMI cable was bad and tried samsung with the new cable and it worked. So I returned the panasonic, just to discover samsung has same issue again next week! 

Now after reading reviews, I got a Sony this time. Well, same problem or worse. I just can not get a signal to my projector. The projector processor seems to be looking for the signal with messages "HDCP 1080p via HDMI 2" alternating every few seconds with "no signal HDMI 2". Occasionally I have had signal but will lose soon. 

What are the chances for two BD player to be bad? I tried changing cables, tried changing HDMI ports but no luck. In the meantime, the server continues to play just fine via either HDMI 1 or HDMI 2 port on the projector. So the projector does not seem to be the problem. May be the BD player is faulty. Now I got the Panasonic 220 again, but same issue as others. I do not have the video signal while audio plays fine. 

I have tried the Panasonic on a TV - and it is just fine. Unfortunately, I did not try the Sony on the TV and so I do not know, but my guess is it would work fine. 

I have thought that may be the setting on the BD player needs to be adjusted. I have tried various combinations (24p on/off, 1080p as preferred signal vs auto, video signal 4/4/4 vs 2/2/4 etc):huh::scratch:

Any idea or suggestions?


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## mechman

It sounds like a HDMI handshake issue. :scratch:


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## RBTO

I didn't hear you mention how you're getting the audio from your BD player. Do you have an intermediate AVR that is pulling the audio from the HDMI line (or is it somehow going through your server)? It does indeed sound like a handshake issue, but it would be useful to know more about audio versus video in your system. How long is the BD HDMI cable you're referring to?

Very unlikely that 3 BD players have the same problem.


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## Doc

Thank you for the replies. 

Yes, it seems to be handshake issue, I just couldn't think of the term! 



RBTO said:


> I didn't hear you mention how you're getting the audio from your BD player. Do you have an intermediate AVR that is pulling the audio from the HDMI line (or is it somehow going through your server)?


I still have analog receiver - without HDMI. So, the BD player or the server/HTPC sends HDMI to projector and optical cable to the receiver. I failed to clarify this in my original post. 



RBTO said:


> .....it would be useful to know more about audio versus video in your system.


The audio does work fine in either case. 



RBTO said:


> How long is the BD HDMI cable you're referring to?


The BD player and the Server/HTPC to the video processor is standard 6 feet cable. The video processor is connected to the projector using 35 feet cable. For those who do not know Runco or Vidikron -- the video processor is part of the projector package. 

Let me add one more observation - Intermittently - occasionally - I did have the BD player play a movie with audio and video both okay, but with video loss occuring for about 5-10 seconds at a time every 5-10 minutes or so. Last time this happened, I was watching DVD (not BD) and so I thought the BD player is not able to upconvert the signal to 1080p and that is the problem. So I changed to auto, now I do not have any picture. 

Once I go home today I will try putting in 720p or other modes and see what happens.


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## RBTO

In your case, the audio is irrelevant since it follows a separate path (optical) which explains why it's always functional. That means it's strictly an HDMI problem affecting the _video _(which is the only signal of interest although the HDMI would include an audio stream as well). You're definitely having an HDMI handshake problem which is making the video (via HDMI) drop out. 

All that being said, we can focus on the BD/processor interface. We know the BD player is putting out a good HDMI signal since it works with your TV (I assume you used HDMI in that case - right?). Since your Vidikron worked for a long time and suddenly failed, I would suspect a cable or the projector electronics. It could have been a borderline problem that always existed, and something changed that pushed it over the edge since HDMI is a GO/NO-GO type thing. I doubt that switching your BD player to auto had anything to do with this problem - do you remember making any other cabling changes about the time this started? Is the cable from your signal processor to the projector HDMI or a special cable for the Vidikron system?


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## Doc

These were my thoughts too. But if projector is faulty, why would it work with the server? 

I wonder what is involved in this handshake? May be some new algorithm that projector does not accept/understand, May be the samsung BD player was/is faulty and that is why it used to work but stopped working, and the new Sony or Panasonic BD players are both 3D players and they require HDMI 1.4 cable even though my projector does not display 3D. However, my TV is not 3D either. go figure!

I do not have time today to play with it. I do not seen I can play with it until Wed pm. I will try more HDMI cables that I have. Will also try to see if any other configuration can be changed. I will report either way - if it works or not. In the meantime please keep up with your suggestions.


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## RBTO

I don't think anything changed HDMI playerwise. Did you do any updates with your Samsung player when the fault appeared? If not, then the bitstream out of the player shouldn't have changed at all. The new players wouldn't have anything different and in 2D mode produce the same bitstream as a non-3D player so 3D isn't an issue either. (No special "3D" cable is needed, even if your projector was 3D. Regular high speed HDMI cable works fine in either case).

When you get time to work with your system and try some new cables, just be careful to try one thing at a time and if that doesn't work, go back to the original configuration so you won't have multiple factors involved. You're correct to assume it's something different about the BD players or their connection to your system since the server works. That sound's even more like a cable but HDMI is _real _finicky sometimes, so it might go beyond that. I have a panny player and it's been rock solid with my HDMI connection, but that's an entirely different case, so explore!


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## tonyvdb

In your first post you mentioned that you did have a Panasonic Bluray player after you thought your Samsung quit? It sounds like the Panny was working for you correct? Ive had a Samsung player and it was awful at playing certain BD tittles (it would drop out several times mid way through a movie). I finally replaced it with a Panasonic player and never had any issues after that. I have since then added a new Panasonic BD player and moved the other one to the living room, still no issues.


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## Doc

Update 1.

I did a factory reset first - because I did have picture at first when I connected the new player first. and changed the HDMI cable to brand new heavier gauge cable - that works with projector using computer and another player. Now I changed to audio setting to turn off secondary audio and turn HDMI audio to off. Now connected to projector - no change. No video with the projector/video processor lcd showing loss of HDCP signal about every 5 seconds. Essentially appears to be handshake issue.

Now I added simple analog connection - RCA cable from Panny to projector, and changed projector input to analog video. Well, the picture did appear (low quality analog picture as expected), but it flickered every 5 seconds to no video for 1 second and then again analog video.... As soon as I disconnected the HDMI cable from Panny, the flickering stopped and the analog video became stable. [If projector was in analog input mode, why HDMI connection make any difference/interference?] 

Now as long as I was still in theater, I tried my old Samsung - that seemed to have died and create the whole issue. Well well well, it worked. I played a blu ray and a DVD for about 1 minute each, no problems. I have left it as such for now. Will try to watch entire movie or two and see what happens, as this has happened in past before I gave up on the Samsung - it worked again giving me hope, but then it stopped. 

I still want to resolve the handshake issue and will continue to update with more setup changes today and over the weekend.


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## Doc

tonyvdb said:


> In your first post you mentioned that you did have a Panasonic Bluray player after you thought your Samsung quit? It sounds like the Panny was working for you correct? Ive had a Samsung player and it was awful at playing certain BD tittles (it would drop out several times mid way through a movie). I finally replaced it with a Panasonic player and never had any issues after that. I have since then added a new Panasonic BD player and moved the other one to the living room, still no issues.


Yes, when the Samsung appeared to be dead, I purchased Panasonic and hooked up - worked - watched two movies. But at that time I also discovered that the HDMI cable that I had in place for Samsung did not work with Panasonic, and had to change to the one supplied by panasonic. Then I just checked the same cable with Samsung, and it worked! So I concluded it was not the player, but it was cable. But after 2 more movies on Samsung the third time I turned it on, I lost video about 10 minutes in to the movie and did not return despite change in cable.


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## Doc

Update:

Ok, finally I had chance to do some more config change. Disappointing to make it brief. I think I have tried all the possible changes, but none has helped. The Samsung player again lost video while I was watching a movie. However, the connection was probably still intact and so I think the Samsung player is really defective and it is not handshake issue for that one. 

Other thoughts:onder:
I think the issue I have is my projector is built in 2007. If there has been a firmware upgrade, it has not been applied yet. As you may know we can not upgrade firmware on our own with Runco or most other high end projectors. This probably has resulted in the projector not being able to decrypt the HDCP signal and hence the HDCP handshake issue. My storage on server is all decrypted content and that is why it plays. I also have another BD player Panasonic DMP-BD60. I was able to play video using this player in past, but not anymore. Probably due to the upgraded firmware on the Panasonic!:crying:

I will try calling Runco to see if they have any suggestions. Likely I will have to send the projector for "repair" or "maintenance" service. :coocoo:


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## kimbpc

Have you looked to see if any firmware updates are needed on your BRD player, unlikely but that may be an issue


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## RBTO

You could be right, but I don't think there would have been any changes in the HDMI bit stream since 2007 or it would have been affecting a lot of folks. The HDMI format is standardized and doesn't change (other than with newer standards that add 3d, for example).

Have you tried a completely new cable from your BD player to your projector? That's the only thing other than your projector that could have gone bad. Have your tried swapping the cable your server uses with the cable for the BD player? That might give you some new information to work on.

I would call your projector manufacture before sending it in to have a firmware upgrade. Talk the problem over with them and see if they are in agreement that that is the problem. You could save yourself a lot in shipping and de/reinstall headaches.


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## Doc

RBTO said:


> You could be right, but I don't think there would have been any changes in the HDMI bit stream since 2007 or it would have been affecting a lot of folks. The HDMI format is standardized and doesn't change (other than with newer standards that add 3d, for example).


I do not think it is HDMI issue, but it is HDCP issue. As the encryption has been constantly updated on the blu ray disks, the newer BD player have different - advanced chips. If the projector is old, it can not keep up with this. I have found many others with same issue, when I searched for this problem, however, never came across any posts of confirmed diagnosis. I have contacted a nationally known projector repair/supply place and also Runco. Both have replied with similar answers confirming my suspicions. I still have to follow up with Runco tech support about resolution as so far it has been phone tag only. 



RBTO said:


> Have you tried a completely new cable from your BD player to your projector? That's the only thing other than your projector that could have gone bad. Have your tried swapping the cable your server uses with the cable for the BD player? That might give you some new information to work on.


Yes I did. Actually many other cables too. 



RBTO said:


> I would call your projector manufacture before sending it in to have a firmware upgrade. Talk the problem over with them and see if they are in agreement that that is the problem. You could save yourself a lot in shipping and de/reinstall headaches.


 Yup, as mentioned above, in contact with Runco. Hopefully, this issue will resolve without much of cost. I suspect I will have to send in my video processor however.


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## jimbodude

I saw some strange HDCP issues with a friend's Runco. Not exactly the same, but there definitely were HDCP issues. The final solution was to bypass the Runco video processor and run HDMI directly to the projector. Is that an option on your model?


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## Doc

Actually, the Runco tech support asked me to do the same for diagnostic check. It works except the colors are wrong - significant red-magenta hue over entire screen. As this works, it means the video processor is having difficulty with HDCP. I will need newer HDCP chip/board change. Or possibly, I could fix the color on the projector! Will see.


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## jimbodude

Does the projector have its own color correction settings for each input? I would guess those would not be set on the HDMI input. I wouldn't expect the default to be noticeably terrible, but maybe it isn't the default. The guy I know who had this issue is no longer using the video processor at all. He is doing all up scaling and aspect ratio correction in an AVR. He got the gear for a song, so replacement processor was not an option - I'm not sure what (if anything) he is doing for color calibration.


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## Doc

I do not think the projector has it's own color correction. 

I contacted Runco, one of the tech support person is washing hands off! Says the projector is too old, and can not do HDCP decryption, sorry. She did not offer any suggestion, correction, did not even ask much of the information. I am having difficulty believing this. I had the same BD player, same blu ray disk playing 1 year ago, and now I am having difficulty with the video. One of the BD player (Panasonic BD65) has firmware from 2010. This tells me that either the projector (video processor) has a damaged HDCP chip or has damaged video board. Also it is in need for the firmware upgrade. As the processor has HDCP chip in it, a firmware should be able to fix the problem if the chip is not damaged. 

Any ideas from knowledgeable people here?

I will try luck again with Runco.


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## RBTO

The point I was trying to make in my earlier post is that a BD player update shouldn't change the HDMI stream, _including the basic way the HDCP functions_. If your BD player/projector played a disk (lets say one made in 2009), it should still play that disk because there wouldn't be any new "version" of HDCP for that disk just because it's 2012. As you mention, the problem is most likely a failure in your projector - read on. The person that told you your projector "can't do HDCP decryption" is full of baloney because it _has been_ and does - it's just losing the handshake intermittently. HDCP makes use of a code the projector sends to the source device which verifies your projector is an HDCP enabled device. If your projector works intermittently, it's still recognized by the source device and HDCP must be working for that to happen. There is some other handshake problem taking place or the projector is dropping the EDID code for some reason.
Try this as a last resort: Connect your Panasonic BD player to your projector (_forget the Samsung_ - take it out of the equation), and get a power inserter. Place the inserter in the line following the Panasonic player. In some devices, the ROM that sends the EDID code to the source device (BD player in this case) gets its power from the HDMI line. Sometimes (for various reasons) that doesn't happen and the ROM doesn't power up - no EDID - no handshake. Placing a power inserter in the line is one way to eliminate that as an issue, and may solve the problem (no promises). You can place it at the output of the BD player, or at the input of the projector processor, but be sure it points the right way (power going to the projector HDMI input).

http://www.yourcablehookup.com/cables-rapidrunreg-digital-hdmireg-voltage-inserter-42223-p-22224.html

These are also available through Amazon and many other sources.


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## Doc

Follow up ...... 

I contacted Runco customer support as Runco bought Vidikron a few years back. Over the phone the tech was very quick to mention that my video processor is not fixable. It is out of date and it is not capable of handling HDCP content. She added that my only resolution is to BUY a new system of at least the video processor from Runco. She also added that there will not be any support available for Vidikron as it is "OLD" model. :huh:

:nono: Well, I find lot of issues with that "support". First of all Vidikron manual and the spec sheet clearly states that it is capable of HDCP handling. Second, I had been playing HDCP content just fine for 3 years prior to the problem! Third, according to projectorcentral.com my projector model (Vidikron vision model 85) was last shipped in Feb 2011. This comes with full 2 years warranty. If this is correct, then some of the late shipped projectors are still under full warranty. Why a recently shipped projector would not be capable of HDCP and not at all fixable? 

addle:It appears to me that Runco does not have any intention to fix something that is already sold. They are interested only in selling yet another item. As above was just a phone conversation, I can not prove it that it happened. So I followed up with emails. I will place additional follow up of my email conversations.


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## Doc

RBTO said:


> The point I was trying to make in my earlier post is that a BD player update shouldn't change the HDMI stream, _including the basic way the HDCP functions_. If your BD player/projector played a disk (lets say one made in 2009), it should still play that disk because there wouldn't be any new "version" of HDCP for that disk just because it's 2012. As you mention, the problem is most likely a failure in your projector - read on. The person that told you your projector "can't do HDCP decryption" is full of baloney because it _has been_ and does - it's just losing the handshake intermittently. HDCP makes use of a code the projector sends to the source device which verifies your projector is an HDCP enabled device. If your projector works intermittently, it's still recognized by the source device and HDCP must be working for that to happen. There is some other handshake problem taking place or the projector is dropping the EDID code for some reason.
> Try this as a last resort: Connect your Panasonic BD player to your projector (_forget the Samsung_ - take it out of the equation), and get a power inserter. .........
> 
> http://www.yourcablehookup.com/cables-rapidrunreg-digital-hdmireg-voltage-inserter-42223-p-22224.html .......



By the way, I did purchase this, but no help. I also tried newly purchased HDMI cable, certified for highspeed, without luck. I was thinking about HDfury option, but if my projector is capable of HDCP, why go that route? So I have put HDfury option on the shelf.


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## RBTO

Doc said:


> Follow up ......
> 
> I contacted Runco customer support as Runco bought Vidikron a few years back. Over the phone the tech was very quick to mention that my video processor is not fixable. It is out of date and it is not capable of handling HDCP content. She added that my only resolution is to BUY a new system of at least the video processor from Runco. She also added that there will not be any support available for Vidikron as it is "OLD" model. :huh:
> 
> :nono: Well, I find lot of issues with that "support". First of all Vidikron manual and the spec sheet clearly states that it is capable of HDCP handling. Second, I had been playing HDCP content just fine for 3 years prior to the problem! Third, according to projectorcentral.com my projector model (Vidikron vision model 85) was last shipped in Feb 2011. This comes with full 2 years warranty. If this is correct, then some of the late shipped projectors are still under full warranty. Why a recently shipped projector would not be capable of HDCP and not at all fixable?
> 
> addle:It appears to me that Runco does not have any intention to fix something that is already sold. They are interested only in selling yet another item. As above was just a phone conversation, I can not prove it that it happened. So I followed up with emails. I will place additional follow up of my email conversations.


It sound's like they may have a group of techs who are not familiar with your unit since your points are quite valid and 6 years (time you've had your projector) is not that long. Did you mention the manual to the tech you talked to? It's quite possible that all the techs are Runco and don't talk Vidikronese or want to go there. Next call, ask for a Vidikron specialist if they have one.

There's no reason a unit should _suddenly_ quit playing HD content due to HDCP issues. Maybe _new_ content might not play, but old content that once played should still play. Also, HDCP issues usually aren't intermittent. If some content won't play - it won't play, period (no sometimes about it). Something failed or is borderline.

I thought you said you purchased a Panasonic player and it worked???? Refresh us on that if you will.


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## Doc

The panasonic player that worked was in July 2012. However, that was the replacement for Samsung that seemed like not working. Anyway, Once I connected the Panasonic, I found out that the HDMI cable was bad -as Panasonic signal could not be detected. Once I changed the cable it worked. After watching one movie, just for kicks, I hooked up Samsung back using the new cable. Voila, it worked too. Now with diagnosis that it was not the Samsung but was the cable, I kept the Samsung in place and used the Panasonic at other place. 

After watching 1-2 movies on Samsung - few months down (I watch mostly from my server, not from the disk) - I discovered the same problem again. Now I was not sure, and blamed the samsung and tried Panasonic again. It did not work this time. Rest of the story already stated before. 

As far as the tech is concerned at Runco, she was adamant, despite my various arguments as I stated. She actually also said, that the Vidikron being old (even though same model was still shipping in Feb 2011), it's HDCP chip is old and now with newer encryption, it requires a new chip. However, you can not get a new chip, you just have to change the video processor. 

I have already communicated with the Runco via email. Hopefully, I can follow up in one week with all the communications.


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## Doc

Update of my communications with Runco:

-- They first asked me information about the Firmware. Once I provided the firmware information - which was the original factory firmware dated 2007 as projector was manufactured - they tell me there is no update to the firmware. Well, if the firmware had no updates since original manufacturing date, why would they ask me about the firmware version in the first place?

-- They repeatedly gave me one answer ---- Sounds like the Scaler needs to be replaced, we do have an updated version of the scaler either the Vivix/DHD III or IV version will support the Vidikron Model 85 (I have the same setup as you). The newer scaler will recognize the Model 85 as a Runco VX2000 (which is the equivalent Runco model to the Vidikron 85), also the newer scalers are full time 1080p scalers and will not pass through 1080p like the older Vidikron scaler, we do have trade-in programs available, Please contact C&E Marketing as indicated in this email string and they should be able to hook you up with a Runco dealer in your area who can obtain a trade up quote

-- I was upset with this attempt at selling more stuff rather than repair, so I sent a reply stating just that. I got a reply from higher up person as --- With all due respect this product was produced by Runco prior to Planar Systems acquiring the company, I am pretty sure it is not HDCP related based upon the symptoms you described, the fault appears to be with the main board of the scaler, specifically the output section, however these main boards are no longer available, nor do we have access to the source code for the firmware for this unit to make future changes as the previous company used an outside vendor to write the code, help design the product, etc. If I had a solution for you that did not involve an upgrade then I would have presented it previously. I would be happy to discuss this further with you of you like I can be reached at xxx-xxx-xxxx, I have been with Runco since 2001 and happen to owne Vidikron 85 as well. Take Care

Michal Hebert
C.S.E. Planar/Runco/Vidikron

-- Hmmm, well, Planar acquired Runco in 2007. Vidikron vision model 85 was manufactured and shipped until Feb 2011, so is he trying to tell me that Planar did not know any inside information about programming details or third party contracts for four years, but still produced the equipment? 

-- See next post for conclusion.


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## Doc

Update and conclusion --

- After all above and no help from Runco, I contacted a nationwide reputable projector repair center and sent my projector. Guess what? They said the firmware is out of date!:clap: With a simple firmware update and voila, projector is working fine. I just got the projector back yesterday and watched Taken 2 (blu ray) from Panasonic player. worked great:T. As the projector is now "Serviced" along with the firmware upgrade, it appears to give a better picture. However, this could be just in my mind or calibration issue. 

- Next step is calibration of the projector again. I will purchase the xrite i1 display pro and proceed. If anyone has other suggestions or ideas about calibration, you are welcome to provide - or pm to me.


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## RBTO

Doc said:


> Update and conclusion --
> 
> - After all above and no help from Runco, I contacted a nationwide reputable projector repair center and sent my projector. Guess what? They said the firmware is out of date!:clap: With a simple firmware update and voila, projector is working fine. I just got the projector back yesterday and watched Taken 2 (blu ray) from Panasonic player. worked great:T. ....................


Number One - hang onto the name of that repair shop - they seem to know what they're doing in terms of Runco and you might be calling on them again.

Number two - give Michal Hebert at Runco a call, be very polite, and tell him what happened and suggest that they compensate you for the repair bill since you went to a lot of trouble with them and ended up having an independent repair shop fix your projector.

Number Three - when you replace your projector, don't buy a Planar, Runco or Vidikron!!!!

Glad your outcome was positive - good luck calibrating.


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## ericzim

Doc, glad to hear the projector is fixed. It is a shame Runco did not want to address the issue appropriately initially or at the very least recommend an alternate repair such as the shop you ended up having it fixed by. Should you not get any satisfaction from Michal Hebert at Runco, as mentioned by RBTO don't buy a Planar, Runco or Vidikron. If I have learned one thing in my life it is that word of mouth goes a long way and now reaches even more so with the internet.


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