# PS3 as a SACD player



## wgmontgomery

I'm thinking of getting a PS3 to use as a SACD player (I've located one of the old ones that will play SACD) and wondered if anyone had any thoughts as to how it performs. I listed the question here (as well as another forum) as I am very interested in its sq as a _2 channel SACD _player. Thanks!


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## mechman

Did you find out an answer to this yet?


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## wgmontgomery

Not yet...


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## tesseract

I have read favorable comments here and there, updating the firmware is recommended.

Have you seen this? http://www.ps3sacd.com/faq.html#_Toc177216794


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## wgmontgomery

Yes, that's actually how I discovered which player to buy. It looks as if I'll be limited to stereo (currently not a big fan of music in 5.1 anyway) with my current pre pro, but the PS3 still seems to be the ONLY player that will give me blu ray (DD/DTS 7.1 lossless) , SACD, and Netflix streaming in 5.1.

I'd rather have the Oppo, but it doesn't stream Netflix in 5.1. That's its only downside.

Much thanks for the link; there is a lot of useful info there.


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## wgmontgomery

tesseract: You mentioned a firmware update; research revealed MANY updates for various reasons. I have my own reasons for not wanting to update past a specific version (3.5 I think), so I wonder if you were referring to a specific version. Thanks


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## tesseract

Bit mapping type 3 is said to improve the sound quality. 

I have also read that the PS3 converts the DSD to PCM. If you are looking for the best from SACD, I would look to a universal player.


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## wgmontgomery

It's true about the conversion; I plan on getting an Oppo...when I can afford one! In the mean time I wanted a player that will play blu ray, SACD and stream Netflix in 5.1. The PS3 is the only player that will do this.


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## wgmontgomery

"I have also read that the PS3 converts the DSD to PCM. If you are looking for the best from SACD, I would look to a universal player"

I did some research on this and while true (DSD to PCM) there appears to be a "way" to get into the software and have the PS3 output DSD. I'm reading/learning more every day, but it seems that you have to have an old (fat) PS3 with firmware 3.5 or lower. We'll see what happens, but it would be GREAT!


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## tesseract

I would like to experience my Hi Rez recordings in surround sound. Someday I will have a dedicated HT room, separate from my 2 channel gear.

Until that day, 2 channel rules. :coocoo:


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## wgmontgomery

I have DSOTM and WYWH on hybrid discs and always use stereo. I love surround for movies, but music playback is in stereo in my house. I listen to ALL of my CDs in stereo; I am not the least bit interested in DSP modes (hall, church etc.) or even 5.1 versions of recordings "old" music. I'm not against it; it's just not my cup of tea. Just my 2¢

IMHO-I have always felt that a good 2 (or 2.1) system is harder to put together than 5.1 or 7.1. I've owned/installed high end systems (Krell, Lexicon, B&W...) for stereo _and_ surround; 2 channel is harder to get "right," but the rewards are worth it.


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## JoeESP9

My solution to this quandary is simple. Play each recording using the number of channels and mode it was mastered for. I suppose having one system that does double duty has something to do with it. Adding surround/MC capability to a (IMO a very good) 2 channel system works for me.

My current all in one system is a logical growth of my always evolving rig. Yes, it's primarily for two channel reproduction. Surround and multichannel have been added without compromising that purpose. I feel this gives the best of both worlds. Plus I've got a couple of thousand two channel recordings. Movies are the majority of my MC material although 5.1 SACD's sound really good!!!


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## wgmontgomery

I agree with you, but I haven't (yet) found many discs MASTERED for surround. It's probably because I don't listen to much classical (Segovia is one exception) or newer jazz (DiMeola another exception). Although our equipment is different, we seem to have built our systems with similar goals. I'm just getting into SACD, but I eschew the 5.1 layer as all of the SACD recordings that I _currently_ own were mastered for stereo. I believe that even the ones that I've pre-ordered (older B Joel MoFi SACDs) are just stereo, and that fine with me given that the recordings were originally stereo,

I guess that the concise version would be to simply quote your post and add, "+1!!"


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## wgmontgomery

I have my PS3 and have been doing some casual listening (mostly movies, so I will not post those impressions here). I read that an update/"mod" will allow DSD from the analog* outs, so I'll post a full review after some critical listening this weekend. So far I'm quite impressed. More to come...

*I'll also post a link to this info.


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## tesseract

Thank you for the update, Gary. DSD from the analog outs is great news. Please keep us posted.


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## koyaan

tesseract said:


> Thank you for the update, Gary. DSD from the analog outs is great news. Please keep us posted.[/QUte
> I'm no expert, but I think we're confusing DSD , a digital format used in SACDs , with PCM , an analog format . The player converts the DSD signal to PCM so an analog signal can be sent to the processor. DSD could be passed to the processor via HDMI, but then the processor would have to be able to convert the DSD .


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## wgmontgomery

"PCM , an analog format" 
PCM=Pulse Code Modulation; it's a digital format and is how CDs are recorded. Please don't take this as a flame of any kind; I just want to make sure we are on the same page. 

We *are* referring to DSD, and you correctly state that the PS3 is known to convert DSD to PCM before sending it via HDMI to the receiver/processor's DAC (Digital-to-Analog Converter). There is news that there's a way to bypass the DSD to PCM conversion in the PS3 for SACD playback. I'll post a link/update as soon as I confirm it, but it seems to be either a mod or update.

Sorry for the confusion; I hope that this helps.


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## wgmontgomery

PCM is an acronym with many meanings, so I wanted to make sure that we were all speaking the same language...

http://www.acronymfinder.com/PCM.html

pulse-code modulation [′pəls ¦kōd ‚mäj·ə′lā·shən] 
(communications) 
Modulation in which the peak-to-peak amplitude range of the signal to be transmitted is divided into a number of standard values, each having its own code; each sample of the signal is then transmitted as the code for the nearest standard amplitude. Abbreviated PCM

Also, 

http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000016.shtml

PCM is a digital representation of an analog signal where the magnitude of the signal is sampled regularly at uniform intervals, then quantized to a series of symbols in a digital (usually binary) code


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## wgmontgomery

I've started my "review" of the PS3 as a SACD player. I need more SACDs, but so far I'm impressed. VERY open soundstage, transparent, wide and deep. More to come-I'll post associated equipment, disc info etc. I also tried it as a Redbook CD player; not quite sure what to make of it. The Bitmap settings don't offer much info, so if anyone knows more I'd LOVE to know.

BTW-I'll be comparing the PS3's CD performance vs. 1st gen. PS1 (Stereophile class B, C or D depending on reviewer.) I found another PS1 at a pawnshop for $20 and may pick it up as a back-up/gift.


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## wgmontgomery

BTW-I should also note that since this is the 2 channel forum, ALL reviews that I post here will refer to SACD playback in _STEREO-NOT 5,1_. Given that all of my SACD discs were recorded in stereo (DSOTM, WYWH etc.) that's how *I* prefer them anyway. I will probably post a separate review in another forum as this thing is amazing with Netflix. Blu Ray etc. Again, that's better suited to another forum.


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## astrallite

It's too bad the PS3 does not do DSD over HDMI, that's one of the reasons I love the Oppo BDP-80/83/93/95 series of blue ray players. It will only play back DSD as PCM at 176.4KHz although it will do multichannel at this sampling rate.


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## Jon Liu

I just wanted to chime in, having had one of the original PS3 fats and trying to listen to SACDs, I would never use this as a primary unit. The fan noise on the PS3 is just unacceptable for any enjoyable listening session.


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## gorb

Yes, the fan noise on the original PS3 is quite loud - it's probably fairly simple to replace with a quieter fan though. I've never opened mine up to see how big it is, but I'm assuming it's 60mm or so.

Anyway, I think the best way to avoid being bothered by the fan is to just turn up the music


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## wgmontgomery

I'd* LOVE *to get an Oppo, but I can't afford one right now. I keep checking the used sites, but every single time one shows-up at a good price it's gone in a flash!

I can't really hear the fan noise from my PS3; you _can_ change the fans, but if you've had it re-balled and changed the thermal compound it's very cool and quiet...at least from my experience.


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## The 7th Taylor

gorb said:


> Yes, the fan noise on the original PS3 is quite loud - it's probably fairly simple to replace with a quieter fan though. I've never opened mine up to see how big it is, but I'm assuming it's 60mm or so.


Not quite. The fat PS3 has a 160mm fan. Technically, it's the quietest PS3 fan because the larger the diameter, the slower it needs to spin to reach a certain airflow. It was designed like this to make it as silent as possible. That it makes most noise of all PS3s is of course because it has to work the hardest, due to the higher dissipation which in turn is caused by the larger pitch semiconductor process used to make the chips. Plus the fact that there's one big additional processor in here: the 'PS2-on-a-chip'.

See http://www.dailytech.com/Article.aspx?newsid=4908 for some teardown pictures.









The massive heatsink on the Playstation 3. The Cell and RSX processors are anchored by heatpipes to the heatsink, which is in turned cooled by a 160mm fan









A single 160mm fan provides all of the active cooling for the Playstation 3









The only active cooling for the Playstation 3: a single 160mm fan

More pictures of the internals with several massive chips in the article.


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## wgmontgomery

VERY useful info, 7th Taylor. Thanks!! I'm starting to see why Sony lost so much money on the old PS3s; they must have cost a fortune to produce!!


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## gorb

Thanks for the info. I haven't gotten around to opening up my ps3 so I never knew what size the fan was 

I planned on disassembling, cleaning, and reapplying thermal paste a few weeks ago...I've just been lazy! Maybe next weekend.


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## wgmontgomery

gorb said:


> Thanks for the info. I haven't gotten around to opening up my ps3 so I never knew what size the fan was
> 
> I planned on disassembling, cleaning, and reapplying thermal paste a few weeks ago...I've just been lazy! Maybe next weekend.


If you have a fat PS3 it's a very good idea. If you don't feel comfortable doing it, there are plenty of companies that will do it for you. 

Also, if anyone is considering a _re-flow _I'd suggest a _re-ball _instead...just my 2¢


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## gorb

I do have a fat ps3. An original 60GB that has never been opened up for cleaning  I imagine it looks pretty bad in there with dust, and that the thermal compound is probably mostly useless.

What's a reflow or reball?


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## wgmontgomery

Many of the fat PS3s developed a problem due to the non-lead solder that Sony used; you've probably seen "YLOD" explained somewhere? A _re-flow _re-heats the _old_ solder to reconnect chips in the unit where the solder breaks; a _re-ball _replaces the solder. 

I'm not stating that you need to re-ball your PS3; I simply added that for anyone who is considering a re-flow. They may want to opt for a re-ball instead. The re-flow method doesn't replace the solder so is a temporary fix. :gulp: At least that's my understanding...


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## ALMFamily

This may not be the best place to ask this question so if not, just yell at me.

Does the PS3 have a wireless remote option? I would love to hook up a PS3 to my system, but I would rather put the unit in the AV closet with the rest of the gear. Running controller wires to the seating area would not be the wisest choice. If they do, do the remotes have to be pointed at the unit or would they work just being within a certain distance?

Thanks!


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## The 7th Taylor

wgmontgomery said:


> I'm starting to see why Sony lost so much money on the old PS3s; they must have cost a fortune to produce!!


They did. An iSuppli teardown of November 2006 (the article is no longer online unfortunately; I'll mail it to you if you PM me) pegged the cost price (bill of material + manufacturing cost) of a 60GB PS3 at *$840* while they were sold at retail for *$599*, a price that must have included dealer margins, so Sony lost hundreds of dollars per unit at that time.

Some quotes: "The reason why the PlayStation 3 is so costly to produce is because it has incredible processing power. [...] If someone had shown me the PlayStation 3 motherboard from afar without telling me what it was, I would have assumed it was for a network switch or an enterprise server."
And: "There is nothing cheap about the PlayStation 3 design. This is not an adapted PC design. Even beyond the major chips in the PlayStation 3, the other components seem to also be expensive and somewhat exotic."

I especially love the part where it says: "To give an example of how cutting-edge the design is, in the entire history of the iSuppli Teardown Analysis team, we have seen only three semiconductors with 1,200 or more pins. The PlayStation 3 has three such semiconductors all by itself."










See later coverage here, here and here.


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## wgmontgomery

ALMFamily said:


> This may not be the best place to ask this question so if not, just yell at me.
> 
> Does the PS3 have a wireless remote option? I would love to hook up a PS3 to my system, but I would rather put the unit in the AV closet with the rest of the gear. Running controller wires to the seating area would not be the wisest choice. If they do, do the remotes have to be pointed at the unit or would they work just being within a certain distance?
> 
> Thanks!


Actually, they have a remote that works off of blue tooth. I think that a company makes an adapter for IR though. :scratch:


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## gorb

wgmontgomery said:


> Many of the fat PS3s developed a problem due to the non-lead solder that Sony used; you've probably seen "YLOD" explained somewhere? A _re-flow _re-heats the _old_ solder to reconnect chips in the unit where the solder breaks; a _re-ball _replaces the solder.
> 
> I'm not stating that you need to re-ball your PS3; I simply added that for anyone who is considering a re-flow. They may want to opt for a re-ball instead. The re-flow method doesn't replace the solder so is a temporary fix. :gulp: At least that's my understanding...


Ah, I see. I have heard of the YLOD. I never heard about anybody resoldering or reheating the old solder, but I've heard of similar methods being used on RROD 360s and video cards and the like.



ALMFamily said:


> This may not be the best place to ask this question so if not, just yell at me.
> 
> Does the PS3 have a wireless remote option? I would love to hook up a PS3 to my system, but I would rather put the unit in the AV closet with the rest of the gear. Running controller wires to the seating area would not be the wisest choice. If they do, do the remotes have to be pointed at the unit or would they work just being within a certain distance?
> 
> Thanks!


There are two first party bluetooth remotes, so no line of sight required. I dunno the range though since I just use mine in my bedroom. There may be other vendors who offer remotes or IR adapters like wgmontgomery said too, but I don't know of any myself 

Here is the first remote Sony released (the one I have): http://www.amazon.com/Sony-PlayStation-3-Blu-ray-Disc-Remote/dp/B000M17AVO/

And here is the current version. I don't know what improvements or changes have been made to it though: http://www.amazon.com/Media-Blu-ray-Remote-Control-Playstation-3/dp/B0050SX9I2/


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## wgmontgomery

I have the second remote listed and it works great for CDs, DVDs etc. It IS blue tooth; I'll check its range (I'm only ~9 ft. from the unit) and post it in a bit.


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## wgmontgomery

My remote works fine at >20 ft. through a wall!!


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## ALMFamily

Thanks a lot you guys - appreciate the responses!


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## wgmontgomery

After much use as a CD and SA-CD player I've come to a few conclusions: the PS3 sounds great via RCA outs with SA-CDs; I believe that a 1st gen PS1 is a better CD player (I have both). I haven't played with the bit-mapping much (it's currently off), though.

I found a Sony Blu Ray/Universal player for $99; I'm considering trying it as a CD/SA-CD player. I *REALLY* want an Oppo 83 but don't have the cash. Perhaps if I stopped buying other things to try I could buy what I want. :surrender: The ONE downside to the Oppo is that it doesn't offer Netflix 5.1 which is >50% of my TV viewing.

Now, I put new strings on my Breedlove and think that I'll sit back and _play_ some music. :TT "Wish You Were Here."


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## drchicago54

wgmontgomery said:


> I'm thinking of getting a PS3 to use as a SACD player (I've located one of the old ones that will play SACD) and wondered if anyone had any thoughts as to how it performs. I listed the question here (as well as another forum) as I am very interested in its sq as a _2 channel SACD _player. Thanks!


I guess I am a bit late to weigh in on this one but as a SACD player you can do way better by going with one of the new Oppo Blue Ray multi format players. They can't be beat at any price.


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## wgmontgomery

drchicago54 said:


> I guess I am a bit late to weigh in on this one but as a SACD player you can do way better by going with one of the new Oppo Blue Ray multi format players. They can't be beat at any price.


I'd love to get an Oppo 83, but they are going for ~$400 (+/-$50); the PS3 was about 1/2 of that. I do, however, agree that the Oppo is a better SACD player.


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## drchicago54

So the most important aspect of a SACD player is jitter. The less jitter, the less digital the sound and the more music like it sounds. The Oppos have some of the lowest jitter and give the best value for the money. Sony makes great SACD players ( I own one) but remember you are looking at a player designed for games and to some degree movies. It may not be wise to go on the cheap too much.


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