# Looking for Efficient 2 Way Speaker Plans



## Lonely Raven

Greets all!

It's been ages since I've done any speaker builds, and I've pretty much forgotten everything I used to know...and I see all sorts of great software tools and designers out there!

I'm hoping there is something out there that will fit my concept and budget. 

Basically, inexpensive two way that will get me the holographic imaging I miss so much, in a small room with a 5 watt tube amp. I'm not concerned with deep bass or reference volume, just holographic imaging on a budget. 

I'm hoping to pick up drivers for $100-$150 per speaker, and build the boxes of exotic hardwoods I already have. I'm a decent woodworker and can build whatever I can dream up. I'm also going to treat whatever room/area I decide to setup as my listening room with OC703 and large 2d diffusers. It will probably be a small area in the basement completely surrounded with treatment (both absorbers and diffusers), a pair of speakers, and me on a small leather chair.

Anyone have any suggestions on pre-designed two ways that fit this bill? :huh:


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## dyohn

You could pick up a pair of Fostex FE260's in that price range... 96db full-rangers...


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## Lonely Raven

dyohn said:


> You could pick up a pair of Fostex FE260's in that price range... 96db full-rangers...


Something like that is my backup plan. I was hoping for simple two way design, but a super efficient full range is something I'm keeping in the back of my mind. I've just never heard one that sounded good through the whole spectrum. Again, I'm not super concerned about concert bass, just holographic imaging.


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## zero the hero

thats easy - EconoWave, over at AudioKarma - http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939

Theres a lot to go through, but the summary thread sums it up nicely. Zilch is great at answering questions and clearing up confusion also.


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## xyrium

Gotta love the F3 on Jordans

http://diyaudioprojects.com/Speakers/Jordan-JX92S-Bass-Reflex/


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## zero the hero

xyrium said:


> Gotta love the F3 on Jordans
> 
> http://diyaudioprojects.com/Speakers/Jordan-JX92S-Bass-Reflex/


thats not bad for a full range, but the title of the thread states he's looking for efficient speakers... 88db and 4.5mm xmax doesnt really fit that bill


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## Lonely Raven

xyrium said:


> Gotta love the F3 on Jordans
> 
> http://diyaudioprojects.com/Speakers/Jordan-JX92S-Bass-Reflex/


Which are also $170 each and 85db 1watt/meter. So they are neither efficient, nor inexpensive.


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## xyrium

Hmm true. I somehow relate the full range designs to efficiency, and the FR caught my eye on that design. I say, get a pair of Jolida 50 watters and try 'em anyway.  They sure look nice connected to those Mc's!

The Econowaves are indeed impressive on paper, what would you compare their sound to?


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## Jason_Nolan

I say finish your first reflection point traps and watch how much you inherit that pinpoint imagining and soundstage you're missing. More than likely this has collapsed due to reflection and you'll gain results once you treat your room.

Worked for me, before I had a blur of sound collecting until I used absorption. Amazing what it can do, not so much for how it looks...


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## Lonely Raven

Jason_Nolan said:


> I say finish your first reflection point traps and watch how much you inherit that pinpoint imagining and soundstage you're missing. More than likely this has collapsed due to reflection and you'll gain results once you treat your room.
> 
> Worked for me, before I had a blur of sound collecting until I used absorption. Amazing what it can do, not so much for how it looks...


I'm setting up a dedicated section of the basement...unfortunately really small, but it will be well treated. 

I currently have no speakers to go with my 5 watt tube amp. This is why I'm looking to build something.


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## RIKKITIK

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/Ariel.html#index
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html
http://www.clarisonus.com/blog/

I found alot of info at these sites. I built the ME2's 6 years ago, and in my system (see profile), I couldn't be more pleased. I've yet to hear a more _satisfying_ set of speakers. 92db efficient. And I love 3D _stereo_ sound. Best of luck in the search.

the Vifa P13-WH is still available from Parts express for about $43.50 ea.


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## DrWho

How low do you consider full range to be? And are you talking $150 per driver, or $150 per speaker?

Depending on how big you could live with, you could easily get extension down somewhere between 40 and 80Hz with the B&C PE32 in a bass horn at over 106dB sensitivity. High frequency extension should be usable to around 1kHz.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-660

For the tweeter, I'd look at the 1" throat Dayton horn:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=270-300
...and probably with the B&C ME10 compression driver:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-600
Note that the freq response in the datasheet was with an ME10 horn which has a 1.5kHz cutoff...it'll go lower on the Dayton horn, although you'll also need to do some CD EQ as well...

That puts you at about $210 per side, 106dB sensitivity, 50Hz-18kHz, and 90x40 polars. You could probably find a cheaper 12" driver if you wanted to bring the price down a bit, but I don't know of anything off the top of my head.

I was just thinking a bass horn for the LF would be a great way to show off your woodworking skills.


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## Lonely Raven

RIKKITIK said:


> http://www.nutshellhifi.com/Ariel.html#index
> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html
> http://www.clarisonus.com/blog/
> 
> I found alot of info at these sites. I built the ME2's 6 years ago, and in my system (see profile), I couldn't be more pleased. I've yet to hear a more _satisfying_ set of speakers. 92db efficient. And I love 3D _stereo_ sound. Best of luck in the search.
> 
> the Vifa P13-WH is still available from Parts express for about $43.50 ea.


I'll have to look into those...my head hurt wading through the EconoWave thread above...




DrWho said:


> How low do you consider full range to be? And are you talking $150 per driver, or $150 per speaker?
> 
> Depending on how big you could live with, you could easily get extension down somewhere between 40 and 80Hz with the B&C PE32 in a bass horn at over 106dB sensitivity. High frequency extension should be usable to around 1kHz.
> http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-660
> 
> For the tweeter, I'd look at the 1" throat Dayton horn:
> http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=270-300
> ...and probably with the B&C ME10 compression driver:
> http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-600
> Note that the freq response in the datasheet was with an ME10 horn which has a 1.5kHz cutoff...it'll go lower on the Dayton horn, although you'll also need to do some CD EQ as well...
> 
> That puts you at about $210 per side, 106dB sensitivity, 50Hz-18kHz, and 90x40 polars. You could probably find a cheaper 12" driver if you wanted to bring the price down a bit, but I don't know of anything off the top of my head.
> 
> I was just thinking a bass horn for the LF would be a great way to show off your woodworking skills.


As I said, I'm not terribly worried about bass. I'd be happy if they could go down to 80Hz, but if they don't, I'll just build a better sub-woofer. I was thinking about $150 per side, just drivers and crossover really. I have plenty of wood and building materials, but I could stretch it to $210 per side if I found something that really nails what I'm looking for. I don't want to drive more power, or bigger speakers, or reference level SPL...I just want 3D sound.

Are there plans for what you're talking about? Part of what I'm looking for, is something already designed, that I can just buy and build. 

I heard the most amazing 3d sound about 12 years ago, and I've been wishing for it since.


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## JerryLove

I don't know where they are on costs, but as is accurately pointed out above: horn speakers are known for their very high efficiencies. It's one reason they were very popular back in the days of low-power tube-based amps


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## RIKKITIK

IMHO, horns/wave guides, pay a big price for that efficiency. Between horn diffraction issues and the inherent driver offsets, it makes it very difficult to produce the 3D holographic sound _and_ keep costs under control, My $.02.


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## Lonely Raven

RIKKITIK said:


> IMHO, horns/wave guides, pay a big price for that efficiency. Between horn diffraction issues and the inherent driver offsets, it makes it very difficult to produce the 3D holographic sound _and_ keep costs under control, My $.02.


That's what I was always lead to believe as well. 

I'm not adverse to horns, it's just that it takes a very skilled designer to make one that works right. 

That's why I'm simply looking for an efficient two way. I could build anything I want, I'm decently skilled with wood, but I need plans to follow. 

It's beginning to look like maybe a Fostex full range is my best bet at this point, but I'm keeping an open mind to everything you guys throw out. Nothings hooked me yet though.


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## scitizen17

This is a design that I have been working on for about a month, however as of now it is unproven until I complete the construction and testing. Calculations show this to be about 98dB efficient, 49 - 20,000. This is a ported enclosure ( two 3" ports) and complies with the Phi ratio and is tuned to 4th order Butterworth for maximally flat response. The key to it's success is the low-frequency driver selection and the 12dB Linkwitz-Riley approximation crossover with woofer Zobel network, horn tweeter compensation and attenuation.


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## Lonely Raven

That sounds great! Tell me one you get one built...I'm not rushing into building this yet, as I'm still working on building the QRD diffusers and absorbers for the theater and listening room.


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## scitizen17

I will definitely let you know. To digress, I am in the process of building a single-ended KT88 tube amp and I have reached a stopping point since the output transformers I ordered from Hong Kong on November 3rd are STILL NOT HERE! The delay prompted the speaker design since I'll need them anyway. I'm probably about a month away from testing.

The cost for a pair, including crossover components, less cabinet & construction, is estimated to be $475.

Best regards,

Scott


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## scitizen17

Pardon me for sounding dumb, what are QRD diffusers and absorbers?


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## Lonely Raven

QRD means Quadratic Residue Diffusers (so I guess I was redundant by saying QRD Diffusers), and by absorbers, I simply mean broadband sound traps. Here are samples of each that came up in a quick Google for the terms. If your room isn't treated, then you're not hearing your speakers.


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## Lonely Raven

I have some photos of my own diffusers and absorbers online, but I should probably start another thread for them. I want to keep this thread focused on SET powered speakers!


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## scitizen17

Well alrighty then, I need that and I guess I have a new project.


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## Lonely Raven

scitizen17 said:


> Well alrighty then, I need that and I guess I have a new project.


Seriously, I'd put my money towards quality diffusers and well placed broadband traps long before I dumped it into cables and tubes and other gear. And I'm a gear nut...so that's saying something. 

Here is a program to help you calculate your own QRD units, it's written by collo, who you'll find on several boards. 

http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/qrdude.htm

Lots of great info on his pages. 

And just to show off a little, here are two of my QRD projects. 





















And the big one I'm working on now (or at least pretending to be working on it...not much energy lately). It's almost 3' X 3' and I'll be making a pair of them to start with.


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## scitizen17

Lonely Raven said:


> Seriously, I'd put my money towards quality diffusers and well placed broadband traps long before I dumped it into cables and tubes and other gear. And I'm a gear nut...so that's saying something.
> 
> That is VERY awesome, excellent work. Concerning cables, I have always told my friends that if an audio connecting cable has 0.1 ohms resistance, then who cares what kind of metal it is made from (within reason)?
> 
> I have attached the driver selections for the NEO10.


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## hm-moreart

Hello,

what you think about a fullrange double horn
34 Hz, soundstage, ~100 dB 1W1m, best Impedanz
for Tube amp.

Look my Saxophon
and RDH20


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## Lonely Raven

Wow, that's a crazy, complex build. I LOVE IT!

Tell me more?


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## hm-moreart

Hello,

look here:
http://www.hm-moreart.de/23.htm

http://www.hm-moreart.de/118.htm


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## Lucky7!

Lonely Raven said:


> Basically, inexpensive two way that will get me the holographic imaging I miss so much, in a small room with a 5 watt tube amp. I'm not concerned with deep bass or reference volume, just holographic imaging on a budget.


Picking speakers to match the amp is backwards logic - been there done that, mainly by building about 80 stereo tube amps and very large horns to try to get back some of the lost SPL capability. The last comment is not about 'loud', but being able to replay large peaks in music that is otherwise at a reasonable level - see here for a detailed explanation.

Anyway, take a look at the No Quarters. No passive xover for them yet though and might be a bit over your budget. The high output Z of the SET will mess with a passive xover designed assuming the near zero source Z of a SS amp, so you might need to redesign to compensate.



RIKKITIK said:


> http://www.nutshellhifi.com/Ariel.html#index
> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/index.html
> http://www.clarisonus.com/blog/
> 
> I found alot of info at these sites. I built the ME2's 6 years ago, and in my system (see profile), I couldn't be more pleased. I've yet to hear a more _satisfying_ set of speakers. 92db efficient. And I love 3D _stereo_ sound. Best of luck in the search.
> 
> the Vifa P13-WH is still available from Parts express for about $43.50 ea.


Built the Ariel v6 before I went down the Tannoy and later, FLH path. Excellent speakers all round. I still have a set of drivers NIB laying around and another design to utilise them in a bit later.


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## scitizen17

I finally finished these loudspeakers. They are indeed about 98dB efficiency and the frequency response seems to be spot on as described below. I have not plotted these yet as I'm not really sure the best way to go about that inexpensively, so if anyone has any ideas please let me know.

I am pushing these with my DIY Abdellah/Gendrano KT88 SET. I understand the KT88 is not actually a triode however it is connected as such, with an option for ultralinear operation. With no equalization, running flat, they have a very balanced sound across the stated spectrum. They are very open and "live" sounding. The soundstage is very much wider than the speaker placement and I really can't "see" the source of sound when listening with my eyes closed. Pretty cool.

I have not decided on the kind of finish that I want to apply, so right now the baltic birch is unfinished. A couple of posts down from the original post I indicate the drivers I am using. I am very happy with these.





scitizen17 said:


> This is a design that I have been working on for about a month, however as of now it is unproven until I complete the construction and testing. Calculations show this to be about 98dB efficient, 49 - 20,000. This is a ported enclosure ( two 3" ports) and complies with the Phi ratio and is tuned to 4th order Butterworth for maximally flat response. The key to it's success is the low-frequency driver selection and the 12dB Linkwitz-Riley approximation crossover with woofer Zobel network, horn tweeter compensation and attenuation.


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## Lucky7!

scitizen17 said:


> I have not plotted these yet as I'm not really sure the best way to go about that inexpensively, so if anyone has any ideas please let me know.


The cheapest way worth going about measuring them is a calibrated Dayton EMM6 mic from PE, a Behringer Xenyx 802 mixer to give phantom power and level adjustment and REW and/or HOLMImpulse. Both of the software suites are free. Plug the hardware into any decent internal or external soundcard and measure away.


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## scitizen17

Thanks very much A9X for the information.


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## scitizen17

These loudspeakers may be exactly what you are looking for. Sure, they follow the plain vanilla monkey-coffin design, but I think you would be very impressed with the way these sound. It's all about the correct cabinet volume & tuning, in addition to the proper crossover, right? I'm getting the 3-D effect that you describe. If you are ever in the New York area, specifically JFK airport, I could demo these for you. I'll do my best to post the response data as soon as I can acquire the proper mic to plot the data.



Lonely Raven said:


> That sounds great! Tell me one you get one built...I'm not rushing into building this yet, as I'm still working on building the QRD diffusers and absorbers for the theater and listening room.


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## scitizen17

Can anyone tell me the best way to showcase the system I have designed?


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## dyohn

scitizen17 said:


> Can anyone tell me the best way to showcase the system I have designed?


What is the intention of your "showcase"? Are you trying to sell the design or do you simply want to let others see what you've done?


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## scitizen17

I simply would like others to hear the the quality of the design so that they may be compelled to build a set themselves. There are many loudspeaker designs available as you may well know, and knowing which one to build can be overwhelming to say the least. I have no intention on marketing these, I would just like others to hear them.

I guess what I am asking is, is there a show or symposium of some sort where this type of equipment is demonstrated?


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## dyohn

No show or symposium per se, but look for DIY audio clubs in your area as those are the best places for showing off a creation. Also write ups on forums like this one or others more focused on the DIY community can get other enthusiasts interested.


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## Zilch

RIKKITIK said:


> IMHO, horns/wave guides, pay a big price for that efficiency. Between horn diffraction issues and the inherent driver offsets, it makes it very difficult to produce the 3D holographic sound _and_ keep costs under control, My $.02.


EconoWave designs feature constant-directivity waveguides, i.e., not horns in the traditional sense; they do not "honk."

All of the requisite information for building them is linked from the first post of the thread, including the list of 92 "officially" registered members who have done so, along with their respective projects. The other 10,000+ posts is just us having fun learning the technical details and showing off our builds. Click the link to "Member Listening Impressions" for verification of what I said above.

Also, being constant directivity, no room treatments are required. Spaciousness vs. imaging are easily "dialed-in" with toe-in according to listener preference.

Most of the early projects were built with lower-efficiency consumer woofers, but we are exploring higher-efficiency approaches using pro sound woofers in the "Flex Your PCD Mettle" thread on Parts Express's Tech Talk forum. I'd provide links to this information, but I have just registered, and it will be five posts before I can do that. In the meantime, since I CAN upload attachments, here is the first third-party build of the EconoWave Deluxe version of Brandon's "No Quarters" completed on the HTScience forum just yesterday, below.

The design is documented in the Tech Talk forum thread, including the simple crossover by Pete Schumacher. We are also working on a smaller variant using the Eminence Deltalite II 2510 10" woofer and a 10" QSC waveguide.... :yes:


*Edit:* Links:

EconoWave Main Thread

Completed Builds

Listening Impressions

Flex Your PCD Mettle (Project index in Post #1)

Greg's HT Project


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## scitizen17

Here are a few plots of the bass-reflex cabinet with Deltalite II 2510 & Ciare 1.38TW.


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