# High End Subwoofer [Buy Hints Request]



## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

Hi all, this is my first post and after days spent reading this forum pages i decided to register to take advantage of your experience (and kindness) on the subject, to the facts now.
It always comes down to what our money can buy best based on our taste and need...
I'm looking to buy a sub(or two) that will fit into my HT/Stereo setup.
I want a sub that can go really low in frequency with a usable db volume(not just the marketing specs), loud enough to really bring to life those LFE in my 50 mq2 room(earthquake like power or similar ), extreme musicality(and i mean extreme) so that it can match the front speaker finesse, blazing fast speed so that it doesn't get boomy.

Now after reading tons of review, tests, and more.....i'm more confused than ever and can't take a decision.
I read on this forum and elsewhere too as the model X produces more SPL of the model Y so i might have an idea s to what i could buy in terms of muscles but what about musicality, the capability to faithfully reproduce music and sensations related to it?
Some people hinted me the REL Gibraltar (G1) as one of the most musical sub ever but honestly didn't find a little bit of info on the web on this sub and its price tag is high for what it offers in terms of power handling and tech(and compared to the competition as well).

My setup is as follows:

FRONT: Focal Electra 1038 Be2
CENTER: Focal Electra CC1008 Be2
SIDE/BACK: Focal Chorus 836V
SUB1/2: ?/?

I'm looking into a max $$$ of 7000€ for this purchase, thanks in advance for any hint.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

There are a ton of available options, and 7k is a mega budget. Are you after a single sub, a pair, additional eq, or have you even considered building something.

I personally wouldnt be looking at Rel, I would be thinking more along the lines of Paradigm, or Velodyne etc. I would also be thinking about a possible pair of subs. I would be seriously looking into DIY options before parting with all that cash though, an IB with that kind of budget would be amazing and destroy most of what is commercially available.


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Welcome to the Forum. Have fun. Dennis


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

Well actually I don't have the know how nor the instruments to build a sub so i excluded that option as a starter.
About manufactured subs i'll set for anything that gets what i want done, be it two rather than one sub, be it paradigm or velodyne.
I also considered Paradigm Sub 25(which looks like it is considered better than the velodyne's) and proposed it to my local dealer who assisted me with my setup until now (he's that kind of stereophile old style uber maniacal over everything with a setup that goes beyond the 150000 USD price tag) and he started whining just about how bad a sub of that kind would be musically speaking "with that kind of rigid suspension"...
Honestly I'm confused...what I can say is that this man has a certain level of experience after 30+ years in this field...i'm here to listen to a different opinion 
I hope i make any sense at all with my babbling.
By the way what's wrong with the REL G1(besides the price), anyone tested it first hand?

Edit: Ty Dennis.


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## Superior Audio (Feb 27, 2008)

DIY isn't hard. Cabinets pre-built can be bought, drivers (subs) can be bought and amps can be bought. All you have to do is put it all together. Couldn't be any easier. :clap:

Musicality in a sub is an overblown myth in my opinion. Short of rap music, most genre don't go below 30Hz at the extreme and most todays subs can easily cover and blend well. lddude:


No personal experience with REL, but have heard nothing but good about them. They are ideal if one is independently wealthy, but for most who are not, DIY and IB is the best you can get. And can compete with ease against the most expensive commercial subs. But back to the REL, those are the type of sub that people THINK are great because they cost so much. Kind of like people that think a power cable will change the sonic properties of an amplifier.:rofl:

Also, where is your location? Mail/internet order is likely your best bet. I don't have a USD $150,000 system (really? Why would ANYONE need something like that unless they have more dollars than sense?) but it is extremely musical and for movies shakes the house on its foundation.:rubeyes::hsd::heehee:


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

Thanks for the advice but i'm really not into self build expensive equipment with zero practical experience, i've given that up, i'll have to stick to commercial subwoofers.
I gues you have a DIY?
Btw I live in Italy and any US/Canadian/overseas equipment is gonna cost approx double down here...the paradigm Sub25 for example which would me my target 1 considering cost/performance is about 4500 euros or rather about 6000$....and is without the pbk
Musicality is often identified as a sub having an extremely light membrane, a soft suspension and a lot a volume for its cabinet thus producing a very fast and deep response being able to keep up the pace with rythm and capable of stopping the boom boom exactly when it is required to, at least that's what people have been telling me, any commercial sub capable of performing well in this area?


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## Superior Audio (Feb 27, 2008)

I am certain you can buy and assemble this sub for considerably less than $6000 USD or $4500 euros and it WILL meet every and ALL expectations you are looking for. 
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-766
or
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-764

and I have 2 DIY (in my signature) of what equates to this sub:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-742 and couldn't be more pleased. Peoples jaws drop when they hear my system (again, in my signature). Is there better? Probably. But the cost to performance difference just isn't justified.


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## Superior Audio (Feb 27, 2008)

This video shows the ease of assembly. And think about it, this is EXACTLY what commercial sub builders do and charge 2,3 even 4 times as much:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...y7T4Dg&usg=AFQjCNGzxiGwNUoEKB84hYIhJjMSlZkQtQ


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

If i lived in the US I could even give it a try but the shipment for a 35+Kg package overseas is gonna cost more than the sub itself


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Elettrone said:


> Some people hinted me the REL Gibraltar (G1) as one of the most musical sub ever...........


This is not meant to be critical of REL in any way but I find the concept of a sub being "musical" to be nonsense. A well-engineered sub with good power/extension and smooth FR to be neutral in its rendering of any program material.

That said, I suggest you attend to two issues. First, the use of more than one sub will greatly improve the in-room response over a wider area than can a single one. Second, the employment of digital EQ for the sub(s) is essential, imho, for getting the best out of them. You can get subs with excellent EQ built in (e.g., the Paradigms with their modified ARC feature) or you can add the EQ externally (e.g., JBL BassQ or Audyssey Sub Equalizer). In fact, I believe the choice of sub(s) (even DIY) is less significant (assuming your choice is decent) than the inclusion of EQ.

I do not know what pricing is for you but a pair of Paradigm Sub15s might be the simplest and least expensive route. Another might be multiple JLAudio f113 subs with an external EQ.


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

Actually i have an Onkyo PR-SC5509 with Audissey MultiEQ XT32 which in my opinion made a pretty good job handling the room response, i guess it should be enough even for sub EQ?
So i might be better off with two sub 15(3000€x2) than with one sub 25(4500€)?


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Kal has some great advise. I would suggest you get the best you can for your budget. I use the SVSound's Audyssey AS-EQ1 with my 2 co-located subs with great results. Have fun. Dennis


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

I'm gonna play devil advocate here for a minute, because I do believe in the musicality of subs. The thing is, this is not a cut and dry area. You can have 2 subs of considerable performance with differing designs and consider one to be more musical than the other. Often, I think this comes down to personal taste, and the kind of music a persona listens to, and the kind of bass line sounds they like will influence the opinion of what sub is more musical than another.

While some people may be satisfied that a high performance sub is a musical sub period, I am not, because I have tried it and come to my own conclusions. As a result I am very well informed of what I like, I know the sound I like and how to get it. I am also very aware that my own personal taste may not suit others, and typically a sub I design for myself will be more expensive than one someone else may design for themselves in terms of clean output vs money spent.

If the OP is insistent on musicality of the sub he buys, then we need to figure out very clearly what his idea of musicality really is. Without it, we cant suggest anything.


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## Superior Audio (Feb 27, 2008)

Elettrone said:


> If i lived in the US I could even give it a try but the shipment for a 35+Kg package overseas is gonna cost more than the sub itself


Most likely but doesn't Italy (or Europe in general) have an equivilant type source or has America cornered the market?:rofl2:


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## ejbragg (Dec 13, 2009)

Elettrone,
Because the low freqs act like waves in a room, it's difficult to get an accurate response throughout the spectrum with only one sub. 2 is twice as good as 1, and 4 is even better. As you can see, it can become quite expensive!

The Paradigm and JL Audio subs mentioned here have good reputations. Compared to each other, they have a built-in amplifier (which is more accurate than most external amp set-ups, for several reasons), they cost about the same, and they both have a similar frequency response, dropping down only 3 dB from nominal at around 18 Hz. It's hard to beat those specs. There are a few subs that will deliver even lower responses, but will not produce the same power output, and many that do will not sound clean. Generally, the lower the frequency, the less clean output level you can expect. Of course, purchasing 4 subs of high quality, will certainly provide you with more power! The real question is where your priority lies. Obviously, you want accuracy. Do you also require the walls to shake? Is 19 Hz low enough, or do you really expect 15 Hz? Would you even know the difference if you heard (felt) it?

I don't know enough about subs in general to guide you well, but a lot of these guys sure can - probably moonfly is one of them. "Musical" subs are (possibly) less theatrical and more musically suited, as the word suggests, to your home stereo, etc., and often not quite as loud as the other models.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

ejbragg said:


> Compared to each other, they have a built-in amplifier (which is more accurate than most external amp set-ups, for several reasons)


I would be interested to hear these reasons. I cant think of any reason why an internal amp would offer an advantage in performance terms, over an outboard one.



> I don't know enough about subs in general to guide you well, but a lot of these guys sure can - probably moonfly is one of them. "Musical" subs are (possibly) less theatrical and more musically suited, as the word suggests, to your home stereo, etc., and often not quite as loud as the other models.


Musicality and theatricality need not be mutually exclusive. Get the performance right and you have your theatrical sub. Get the sound character of the sub how you like it, and you have your musicality. The hard bit is getting both without one or the other effecting each other. Films have musical scores, and very orchestral ones to boot, so if musicality is important to you, then it can be just as important that its retained for movies as well as music listening. 

I prefer sealed subwoofers because its easier to specifically tune its sound to exactly what you want. The problem here is that if you want high performance as well, it can get expensive, especially in the commercial world. Its not an issue for me as I build my own and off set the costs, so I dont feel a need to chase additional output by porting. I feel that porting degrades the sound quality, with the exception of the LLT design, but then an LLT design has specific cabinet requirements that means tuning the sound character to what I want isnt possible with the vast majority of drivers out there, for me at least anyway, and I know I am not the only person that feels that way.

With this kind of budget and requirements, I think we need to be very sure what exactly the OP is looking for before suggesting how to part with that budget.


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

Elettrone said:


> Actually i have an Onkyo PR-SC5509 with Audissey MultiEQ XT32 which in my opinion made a pretty good job handling the room response, i guess it should be enough even for sub EQ?
> So i might be better off with two sub 15(3000€x2) than with one sub 25(4500€)?


I have been running the system in my signature for over six months now, and have been very impressed with the LFE output from day one. Thunderous and clean. This week was the first time I did a lot of loud music listening. I sat back with my eyes closed and listened to a very eclectic mix for an hour at +10dB. When i opened my eyes i noticed that the lights were off on the subs, the receiver was in Pure Audio mode. I switched to Direct, the subs came on, and I listened again. I couldn't barely tell the difference. The bass was incredibly smooth and clean, punchy when it should be. The bass guitar solo near the beginning of Jeff Beck Live At Ronnie Scotts (I think track 3, not sure) sounded remarkable balanced all the way from the highest to lowest notes of the immaculately played instrument, with the subs off or on. My receiver uses the same version of Audessy as the OP's equipment, and I set up the Sub 12 pair with Paradigm's PBK. Although the OP has an admittedly better speaker package than I do, I have no problem recommending a pair of Paradigm Sub 12 for LFE or Musicality, and I can only guess that the Sub15 would perform as well or better. By the way, I have listened with rock, jazz, classical, country (sorry), blues, folk, heavy metal, pretty much the whole range. Except rap. No rap. Ever. If you need an opinion on performance with rap, I'm not the guy.


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

Wow thanks everyone for the feedback, it looks like instant messaging doesn't work...
I use my setup 65% for movies and 35% for music thus i want a first class HT experienxe withot sacrifying too much on music.
Now my main speaker can go as low as 32hz wich is pretty good for music alone and i have to say I'm not sure what the real benefit will be once I add a good sub bass system.
Before this setup I had the bookshelf speaker from focal which could go as low as 47 hz, then i used a pair of REL subs T1 to go down to 30hz with some power and the improvement in the music was indeed palpable but not life changing, Home Theather on the other hand changed drammatically for the better.
Compared to other REL subs the T1 was pretty fast a precise(at least to my hears) both with music and movies, the effects lasted exactly as intended without excessive boom and the lower end of the musical frequencies where sufficently articulated but i always felt i wanted more, reson to buy bigger main speakers and sub system.
The T1 is in my experience nowhere highend being anyway a decent sub.
Now with one or two high end subs capabale of delivering even lower frequencies thus more air = more vibrations in the room wich really adds to the movie experience even if the sound is not heard but felt i want to get an even bigger improvement compared to what i had before. I really want to bring to life to those LFE effects.
For what concerns music i can say that often happens a lot too in the subsonic range that makes you feel it beyond what your hears allow, for example the way an orchestra energizes the concert hall and i like orchestra music a lot!
Also the ability to position the main speakers for best imaging without being bothered by bass response because it is a separate system has its advatanges.
Thus a musical sub should sound punchy as a battery and soft as a drum as my main speaker(and they sure can!) can so that it integrates seamlessly.
The final question is..."is it possible to have an earthquake powerfull and musical subsystem?"
Hope i have been clear enough on my idea of power and musicality ;.)


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## chewie (Oct 26, 2011)

I have for the last several years used a Vandersteen V2W in my HT, and I absolutely love it. It was an upgrade for me from a Mirage sub, that I really felt lacked a deep punch. I want mainly movies in my HT, probably 80% movies 10% music and 10% games, and the Vandersteen does everything I want. I couple nicely with my other speakers, delivers amazing LF and can get as boomy or as tight as what I am listening too warrants.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

My own personal preference is for sealed subs. My ideals seem fairly close to yours and I have yet to hear anything I consider a match for a high end sealed subwoofer system. Its entirely possible to have a high end musical sound that can rock the room as well. Basically, I would go as big as you can and try run a pair if possible. I would favour a pair of 15's over a single 18 for example, just ensure if you buy a pair you ideally want them to be the same sub.


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

What manufacturer should i consider? 
Speaking about paradigm, 2xSub15 or 2xSub25(6KW maybe looks like overdoing it...?) or better chose another manufacturer? T_T
I was thinking if i had a very detailed project with specs and numbers i could have the box done profesionally.
Then I'd need to find the proper driver and amp...
*sob*


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Those would probably be at the top of my list, as well as perhaps a pair of the Velo DD15+. There is no such thing as overkill, you just build in more headroom an improve sound quality.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Moonfly said:


> I'm gonna play devil advocate here for a minute, because I do believe in the musicality of subs. The thing is, this is not a cut and dry area. You can have 2 subs of considerable performance with differing designs and consider one to be more musical than the other. Often, I think this comes down to personal taste, and the kind of music a persona listens to, and the kind of bass line sounds they like will influence the opinion of what sub is more musical than another.


Well, to come clean, I do not believe that the term "musical" has any validity at all when applied to anything other than music. All I can gather from reading all the folks who use the term is that it is "musical" if if pleases them. When applied to something that operates only below 80Hz, it becomes incomprehensible. It is accurate or it is not and, so far as it is inaccurate, it ain't musical.

[Rant mode off.]


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

Kal Rubinson said:


> Well, to come clean, I do not believe that the term "musical" has any validity at all when applied to anything other than music. All I can gather from reading all the folks who use the term is that it is "musical" if if pleases them. When applied to something that operates only below 80Hz, it becomes incomprehensible. It is accurate or it is not and, so far as it is inaccurate, it ain't musical.
> 
> [Rant mode off.]


I would consider a sub as being musical if it plays accurately from 30-80 hz. There is rarely musical content below 30 hz unless hitting the lowest notes on an organ, and most people aren't that much into organ music. Music notes above 80 hz are usually crossed over to the mains. For LFE use, the sub is tasked up to 120 hz and down to a minimum of 20 hz, with some sources even having a considerable amount of subsonic effects. So it would seem that LFE is even more demanding than music. The reason many subs are cast off as not being musical is not due to the frequency range but due to our auditory prowess of detecting inaccuracies in musical reproduction. If a sub does not play flat and accurate the notes on a bass guitar may sound out of tune or as though the musician played a particular note too hard or too soft. Not many of us have our hearing trained to detect the "proper" frequency response of a howitzer, hand grenade, or earthquake. A sub may be praised for "great LFE" because it can do high SPL at low frequency, but that doesn't mean that you are hearing what you are supposed to. The audio Nirvana we seek is a sub that is accurate enough to convince you that the cello is being played live in the room, and powerful enough to convince your wife that the explosion was your neighbor's house, not something on the movie.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Kal Rubinson said:


> Well, to come clean, I do not believe that the term "musical" has any validity at all when applied to anything other than music. All I can gather from reading all the folks who use the term is that it is "musical" if if pleases them. When applied to something that operates only below 80Hz, it becomes incomprehensible. It is accurate or it is not and, so far as it is inaccurate, it ain't musical.
> 
> [Rant mode off.]


But then you have to dig a little deeper into the whole subject matter. Do films not have music in them? Would that music's 'musicality' not have a bearing on the enjoyment derived from that film for someone who really listens to music as a whole.

You then have to consider what defines musicality, and what aspects of that sound character transfers onto other sounds in the sub 80hz zone. If a driver is put in a massive cabinet, and its parameters werent designed with the intention of being put in said cabinet, then is it truly accurate in the absolute sense of the term.

I know from experience that a very low Q system cant be realistically accurate across its entire range. It will be very very accurate in terms of producing a sound close to that of the drivers raw design, but then if that driver was designed to be loaded into a system, and is insufficiently loaded due the cabinet being enormous, then isnt that accuracy open to interpretation?

Ive watched film sound tracks on all sorts of systems (as no doubt many of us here have). Some subs will cause lots of bass on effects where there just shouldnt be any, while others will give very little bass for the same effect. Something like a pneumatic jack hammer for instance has a very particular sound that is both very low, but also has a lot of chest impact (and I mean a lot, especially when up close), and getting a system balanced right to produce this sound properly is a pretty fine balancing act IMO.

Perhaps musicality is the wrong term, but Ive always found that if a system is to be as close to perfect as possible, then this musicality is something I have to get bang on. Once you have that you simply need adequate performance. For me, trying to get all that performance from a single driver in a massive cabinet is easy, but to do it and keep this 'musicality', which as I say I believe translate to a whole range of sounds , I think is another matter all together.


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

Moonfly you expressed exactly what I couldn't find words for.
That'exactly what I want from the sub system i'm gonna buy(or build? ...hardly)


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

FWIW, I have heard no commercial subwoofer system do anything I havent heard from my DIY subs. On the flip side, I have heard plenty commercial sub woofers that arent a patch on my DIY subs. For reference, I have heard quite a few subs over the years, including the mighty Paradigm Sub2.

If you have doubts about performance or sound quality that can be derived from a DIY sub, then allow me to ensure you that there isnt really a limit as to what you can achieve. Your limiting factors become your own aesthetic requirements and space availability. You even have a warranty with a DIY product as all the components ship with their own warranties, so even this is of no concern.

We have a lot of info here to help people take the step into building their own sub, and we are always here to help every step of the way. On top of this, you can do so much more with a DIY build in terms of tailoring a system to be exactly what you want it to be, you simply cant buy anything like a true LLT for example.

You should look around the boards at what people have done and have a think on this. Even if you paid someone to build the cabinets for you, which we could even spec entirely for you if required, your still going to end up with more for your money that any company can compete with. So, for your given budget, you really cant get a better subwoofer than what you could build in terms of sound quality and performance.

For me personally, I need the fastest bass I can get, that remains a decent balance of a Q just under the mid point, that can deliver that mighty chest punch feel but still staying as clean as is possible. It has to be insanely accurate though and be able to start and stop in a heart beat with zero overhang. This way you get more from LFE effects, more texture in the bass rather than more of what I feel is all low end rumble. It still has to go deep though, and I strive to get flat to 10hz to at least 100db if I can, without driving the drivers beyond xmax. The end result I think gives the balance I speak of. The system is gloriously musical while also able to give seat of the pants thuds you cant really even hear (I grin eveytime I detect an effect I havent been able to hear, but it saddens me to think of the fact most people never get to experience that). Combine the whole thing and for me thats what gives not only the best musical reproduction, but also the most rewarding theatrical experience as well.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

phreak said:


> I would consider a sub as being musical if it plays accurately from 30-80 hz.





Moonfly said:


> Perhaps musicality is the wrong term, but Ive always found that if a system is to be as close to perfect as possible, then this musicality is something I have to get bang on.


QED.


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

I wouldn't know how to judge if a project is sound or not and whether to invest my money in...
This is mostly what I'm scared of and the fact that maybe it would not be practical to buy components here in europe...I wouldn't know...is there and good manufacturer selling the right components i would need?
Is there even a project with detailed specs i could follow?
I have someone that could build me a fine and elegant cabinet(need a piano black glossy paint to go along with my furniture) but before that i need a detailed plan to present him to get an accurate cost of the project.

On the other hand Moonfly, what commercial subwoofer you've heard first hand would you recognize as close to your(mine also) idea of perfect sub bass system as described in you last posts?
I'm also looking for a very fast sub and all the nice things you explained, yes that's my ideal system! 
Sub25? Sub1? Sub2? another x sub i haven't heard of? Maybe the Velodine 1812? Well that's a little overboard maybe ^^ (as much a s the sub2 i guess)

BTW thanks to anyone who spent time commenting on this thread.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Well the sub2 was probably as good a sub as I have heard, and I couldnt really fault it to be honest. All the other subs I have heard have always had some failing or another, thats the whole reason I went into DIY in the first place and I have devoted probably the last 5 years into nothing else but subwoofery etc.

I cant make any promises, but I built a pair of sealed FiQ18 subs and they were easily as good as the Sub2 I heard but for about 15% of the cost. I can only assume you and I are on the same page, but if we are I could give you everything you need to build a top quality subwoofer, everything from help with choosing the right drivers and amps, to a 3D model of the required cabinet. I have already done this for quite a few people and so far no one has been disappointed. Its probably worth you knowing I am based in Europe as well :T

I have never heard a commercial subwoofer that uses a 15 inch driver directly myself though, so you would really need to go and get a demo of such products, and ideally in your own room.


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## Infrasonic (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't know what the 50 mq2 measurement of your room equates to in cubic feet but if you have a large room and budget two Seaton Submersive HP's with an external EQ (or even without) would provide you with excellent extension down to single digit Hz with room gain. They work equally well with music and movies. The pair would run about $4,500 USD before shipping.
Links:
Submersive Forum

AVS Forums


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

1 inch = 2.54cm thus 1 feet(10 inches) = 0.254m thus 50 square meters = ~200 square feet


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

2.54cm=1"
1m=39.4"
1sq m = 1552 sq" = 10.8 sq ft
50 sq m = 540 sq ft
Need ceiling height to calculate cubic ft


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Elettrone said:


> 1 inch = 2.54cm thus 1 feet(10 inches) = 0.254m thus 50 square meters = ~200 square feet


50 square meters is 538 square feet.

I have never heard the submersives, but I have to say that on paper alone, and with additional eq like say the SVS AS-EQ1 is probably a solution I would look at if I werent to build my own. I dont have the specifics on the design in terms of the targeted system Q Mark went for, so dont really have any idea as to how they would sound, but the performance is known to be there without any doubt at all.

I would fire an e-mail off to him and ask the appropriate questions. I cant think of any commercially available products I reckon would better them for the money and with the additional eq on top.


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## Infrasonic (Sep 28, 2010)

I have one Submersive in a roughly 240 sqft sealed room and it is able to pressurize the room easily. The Sub25 is a good sub but it is very much overpriced based on its performance. DIY will get you the best bang for the buck but if you don't want the hassle the two 15" drivers and 2400watt amp in the Submersive will undoubtedly put a smile on your face and save you quite a bit of cash versus the Sub25.

Don't take my word for it though (since I own one), read the reviews.


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

The room's height is 2.70m or 10.8 feet thus 135 cubic meters.

The offer is truly generous of you Moonfly, I'm certainly capable of building a raw box to try off the components then if everything works as intended i can have two elegant cabinets built and painted by a pro then all I'll have to do is deassemble from one box and mount on another one.
Where do we start then? 
I'll enable email contact from the control pannel right now.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Well you need to decide on a driver. In Europe the best supplier is really BladeIce that supply drivers from Fi. Its one reason I recommend them and I have used them many times before. The alternative is to ship direct from the US which does work, but can be problematic if you end up with a faulty driver. 

You then also need to figure out how big you can go with your cabinet(s). Once we have an idea of how big you can really go, we can choose a suitable driver from your chosen supplier and work form there.


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## Superior Audio (Feb 27, 2008)

See? I told you DIY is the way to go...


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

Hmm the cabinets will be as big as they need to be...in a 5x9.5 mq2 room the only limitation i have is to place them anywhere along the short sides because we use the room to dance and thus the central space is needed empty. I'll definitely go with an european dealer unless otherwise convenient for unknown reasons


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Well to get the ball rolling and give you some figures to work with. 2 cabinets at around 500 litres each, with a pair of 18" drivers in each and 2KW of power to each, would give you more performance than any commercially available subwoofer. The total cost would likely be around 2500 euros and that including amplification and an AS EQ-1 from SVS, which I would highly recommend. You simply can buy anything with 4KW of continuous power to four 18" drivers with a dedicated 2 channel independent eq as well for anything like that kind of money. IIRC, a Velodyne DD18+ is around 4.5k alone.

If space is an issue we can look at designs to help make the space taken up by the subs as small as possible by reducing the footprints of the subs and making them taller. A sealed cylinder for example, with a driver at either end, could take up as little as around 21" squared in floor space.


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

A downfiring cylinder? Sounds appealing, anyway i have yet to understand how much space would a cube like box of 500 liters occupy. Tomorrow morning i'll make some carton prop just to get an idea then we can start talking about design.
So what kind of drivers should i go for? Is there a website to buy off stuff?


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

I personally like sealed subs for music, to me they respond faster. Sealed is also great for HT but I beleive you can get more room shaking base from a ported design in a smaller package. If I could afford them I would probably go with 2 JL Audio Fathom F112 or F113 for a sealed design. Ported I would still go with the SVS cylindrical designs, a couple of PC13 Ultras.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Elettrone said:


> A downfiring cylinder? Sounds appealing, anyway i have yet to understand how much space would a cube like box of 500 liters occupy. Tomorrow morning i'll make some carton prop just to get an idea then we can start talking about design.
> So what kind of drivers should i go for? Is there a website to buy off stuff?


A 34" cube would give you 500 litres.


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

Ok, let's dive into the details then, what should i buy and where should i buy it?


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Are a pair of 500 litre cabinets ok then? And do we have a fixed maximum budget (I am assuming its beyond what this project will cost anyway, but have to ask).


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

Cabinet size is not an issue as long as it is a perfect fit for the woofer and about the budget I expect it to be realistically at least 50% less than what I anticipated with commercials subs.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Right, well I have a further question before proceeding further. Do you know what an IB subwoofer is?


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

Well i googled it all i get looks like it has a very large space to compress the air or something like that.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

An IB would basically be installed like this, with the room with the red walls being the listening room, and the other being another large room or space, or even to outside as long as the driver were protected:


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## Elettrone (Oct 29, 2011)

i can't cut into the walls in order to get my HT theater right  if that is what you are suggesting


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Thats fine, I just wanted to rule out an IB before proceeding further.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Building a sub is fun but not quick... Choosing a driver to build a box around to me would be the funnest part. I would like to see the box for this puppy

http://www.aurasound.com/products/specialty-audio/drivers-and-transducers/18-inch-subwoofer

The other great thing about DIYing a sub is looks, you can veneer it with santos rosewood if you wanted.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

At $900 each they are nearly 3 times the cost of the Fi drivers, and have less xmax. I just cant see them being that good a value for money myself. I cant possibly see how one of those could outperform a pair of of the Fi's myself.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Sorry I wasn't thinking about price...

I beleive the CSS TRIO12 (if you wanted to go that small) is also a nice sub.
The Dayton RSS390HF is a little more expensive but also nice in my opinion.


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## Sam Ash (Aug 23, 2009)

I was give this contact by a fellow forum member - http://www.funkaudio.ca

Apparently they may be able to build a sub woofer to your spec and within your budget.

Let me know how it goes if you contact them, just for my own reference.


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