# Surge Suppressors



## lcaillo

This is a topic that generates great debates in many venues regarding the value and necessity of surge suppressors and line conditioners. Let's not start that debate in this thread. I start with the assumption that in many areas SS can be a big benefit for several reasons.

With that as the starting point, the obvious question that this begs is "what should I use?" With that in mind, I issue a challenge. With a little research I find the Tripplite HT1010SAT3 which can be found for about $45. Can anyone find a better value, in terms of protection and functionality?

Just to be clear, this is not a product that we sell, nor am I trying to promote any particular product. Just trying to research the best value.


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## JCD

Not me. 

On the other forums I've frequented, Tripplite has always been the clear favorite. Good product for relatively low $$.

JCD


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## reed.hannebaum

I have also read good reports on the Tripplite line of products. I know on some models they have suppression between each of the outlets. This means that every piece of equipment plugged into the unit is isolated from each other as well as from the power line. This is important since some equipment, especially those with electric motors, can cause corruption on the power line. 

I own an Isobar IB-8, and it seems to perform well. Belkin makes a similar line of suppressors. One thing to keep in mind is that almost all suppressors use MOV's to suppress transient voltages. While these work very well they have memory. So the more transients they suppress the less effective they become. Some high quality industrial grade suppressors use other means for suppression, but they are very expensive.


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## fibreKid

I use a ZeroSurge unit. One of these days I'll get a UPS but for now I have the 20 amp model.


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## lcaillo

While the concept of filtering surges (Zero Surge, BrickWall, etc.) as opposed to current dumping(using MOVs) has great merit, it is not the complete solution that ZS would suggest, and some of the conclusions and statements on their web site are misleading and incorrect. For instance, they say that "only normal mode surges enter buildings" and base this on the assumption that because the ground and neutral are bonded together at the building service entrance that no voltage can exist on the ground or neutral side. This is a large and faulty assumption and the conclusion that three-way or all-mode protection is not required is, IMO, faulty. It is not uncommon for the ground to go high in a nearby lightning strike, even when grounding is proper. In these cases, having MOVs to dump current back to the normally "hot" side may be a big benefit.

Inductor/filter based devices are quite useful, but only up to the limits of their capacity. Large capacity units are relatively expensive. The advantage to MOVs is that they are cheap and dump current to whichever side is low when the voltage across them is exceeded. They may lose effectiveness with repleated use, but the amount of energy needed to degrade them is not typical of frequent surges.

The other limitation of the ZS and other massive filter based devices (and with most whole house suppressors) is that they typically ignore other signal lines into the system such as cable, sat, line level audio, phone, and network lines. Having protection on these can be important, and having local single point grounds can alieviate interference and gournd loop problems. I see enough damage from ground (i.e. common mode) surges that is catastrophic that IMO it is an important aspect of surge suppression. 

Ideally, a large capacity inductor based unit followed by a more typical MOV based product with signal line protection would be ideal, but perhaps overkill. The Tripplite unit that I posed as a reference to make comparisons to seems to have reasonable protection for a low price, though there have been some reports of signal loss in the coax lines. I suspect that those are due to poorly made connections, since the bandpass specs that I have seen for them are typically more than adequate. I'll order one and check it out. My challenge still stands to find a better value...either something close in price that offers similar or better protection and features, or something cheaper that does the same.

Most important to remember is that one MUST have good grounding where all incoming lines are grounded to the electrical service ground electrode at the entry point to the home or no type of surge suppression will be as effective as it could be. I recommend checking your grounds at least once a year for corrosion and to verify that they are tight. Don't let cable or sat installers get away with not grounding your system properly. They must do it according to code and your local county inspectors will force them to do so if they refuse.


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## reed.hannebaum

I am sure you are more up on this subject than I am, but I just read an article by Dr. Craig Hillman (who ever he is) and he states:

"Electrical stress applied to a ZnO MOV for longer than a few microseconds causes chemical changes at its grain boundaries, causing their diode-like characteristics to become more ohmic (diodes become resistors).
-- MOV turn-on voltage decreases.
-- MOV leakage current increases." 

Of course he doesn't define what "electrical stress" is, but I would think that a hit from a lightning bolt may qualify.


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## Danny

Or age. Even low power spikes over a period of time will damage or destroy the MOV's, and since the power lines fluctuate widely every day it is a problem that you need to watch out for.


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## lcaillo

reed.hannebaum said:


> I am sure you are more up on this subject than I am, but I just read an article by Dr. Craig Hillman (who ever he is) and he states:
> 
> "Electrical stress applied to a ZnO MOV for longer than a few microseconds causes chemical changes at its grain boundaries, causing their diode-like characteristics to become more ohmic (diodes become resistors).
> -- MOV turn-on voltage decreases.
> -- MOV leakage current increases."
> 
> Of course he doesn't define what "electrical stress" is, but I would think that a hit from a lightning bolt may qualify.


This needs to be kept in context. Even Sero Surge's own web site shows that the rating for the larger MOVs of three of the major suppliers are rated for 100 surges of 1000 amps. Most systems will never seen any surges of this much current, much less 100. Even here in north central Florida, where we average many times the lightning strikes that other parts of the US have, we do not see MOVs failing in surge suppressors other than in extremely close lightning strikes.

When they fail, they tend to short and blow circuit breakers and the failure is obvious. It should also be noted that repeated excessive voltages on any semiconductor junction will cause similar degradation. Also, increasing of the leakage current on a varistor is minimal. If it gets very high at all, it will usually break down and short. The better vendors will simply replace a surge suppressor that fails.

Yes, it should be understood that MOVs are sacrificial devices. It should also be understood that filter based series suppression systems are more costly and power ratings are much more important to consider. There are pros and cons to both types of systems.


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## lcaillo

Danny said:


> Or age. Even low power spikes over a period of time will damage or destroy the MOV's, and since the power lines fluctuate widely every day it is a problem that you need to watch out for.


This is simply not true. It takes high currents to significantly affect the reliablity of MOVs. Most frequent spikes are not very high in current nor duration. If what you say was true, we would be seeing them fail much more often in the many devices that use them (not just SS). I have been working for dealers that have been selling MOV based units in high lightning areas for over two decades and we rarely see bad ones. In severe strikes, yes they do fail occassionally. I have pulse tested quite a few from used units out of curiosity and found the clamping voltage pretty much right where it should be.

Sony used them in several places in TV power supplies for years and while may techs subscribe to the myth that they should be routinely replaced, I have very seldom found one that tested bad without other significant damage to the power supply from surges or other component failures. In fact, they are much more reliable than the other PS components. The problem is that most people have no clue how to test them and other than verifying where they start to clamp, other testing can be destructive. If you understand how they work, however, you know that you can be confident that it will work if it starts to clamp where it should, even if it breaks down. Then you know that it needs to be replaced because they short.

There are certainly advantages to series mode, filter-basd systems over MOVs. The point is that MOVs are a very reliable and cost effective method of surge protection. Once again, you have to keep the information in context. The people selling series units will make you believe that MOVs are bad. It is simply not true. It is also true that they have limitations.


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## lcaillo

Now back to my original question. Can anyone find a more cost effective unit than the Tripplite that I found?

Without spending at least four times as much I have not seen a series/filter-based unit that has the power handling for a serious system, nor that has protection for the incoming signal lines other than the a.c. I'd love to find one, but the fact is, big inductors are expensive, and this technology is not applicable to signal lines.


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## russ.will

Icaillo,

Having lost my Denon AVR 3802 to a lightening strike, I was forced into researching this particular topic. I have no in-depth knowledge of individual electrical components so was forced to rely on manufacturers specs and reviews where they exist. Surge protectors don't seem to attract many reviews, but when a product claims an element of filtering/noise suppression as well, then the AV world is suddenly all over it like a rash.

On this basis and knowing that I wanted something with a decent current capacity (Receiver, Phono stage, turntable, TV, DVD, Satellite and large sub) I settled on the Monster HTS 1000. Now it's not as cheap as the HT1010SAT3 but then a) you can't get that over here and b) I thought it good VALUE, which is subjective. It's build is certainly a cut above and it certainly gives me confidence however unfounded that may be. What swung it for me, aside from the build quality, is it has a properly shielded mains lead, signal lead protection and the grouping of certain components to optimise filtering seemed to be favourably reported on and sensible in theory.

As to some of the sound and picture improvements claimed and reported, I think they may be slightly overstated. Although, if push came to shove, I would say the my system is slightly less prone to sibilance now. But no more so than the difference you get by listening late at night when the mains are cleaner anyway.

It appears to use more than just MOVs, but as to what, I'll let you decide. It doesn't satisfy your criteria on price, I know, but with your obvious knowledge on the subject, I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

Russell


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## lcaillo

The Monster products are fine in my opinion, but even though we sell them, I don't believe they are the best value for most people. The HTS 1000 MKII is, I agree, nicely built, but for the price I would likely pick the Panamax M8HC-PRO. While the Panamax does not have as high a Joule rating, they do provide much more detail on the performance of the unit and it has the over/under protection that the HTS 100 MKII does not. It concerns me that MC does not publish much detail such as the peak current ratings. MC seems to be more concerned with appearance and filtering, IMO. While filtering can be a benefit in some limited instances, most performance improvements that have been claimed are, as you said, likely optimistic. My view of filtering and line conditioning is that they should be used when there is a problem that cannot be fixed at the source, but are not assumed to be needed.

Nothing at all wrong with your choice, but the Tripplite can be had for a little more than half of either the Panamax or the MC and has a higher joule rating than either. I chose it for my challenge because of the good basic protection at a low price, without a lot of filter hype. Again, I am not promoting it, we sell the Panamax and MC units.

The above 3 brands, along with some of the Belkin peoducts, are some of the better surge suppression products I have found. I tend to not prioritize the noise reduction capabilities and lean toward the series/filter type units if that is really needed or desired. If I had a problem with noise, I would use a combination of the SeroSurge 2R15W and the Tripplite unit. The two could be found online for about $200. I should probably start another thread on noise suppression on a.c. lines. The need for it is very much overstated, IMO. Ironically, most of the benefits come in with audio systems, not video, which seems to be the focus of so much of the hype these days.


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## Danny

Icaillo

will continued small surges kill MOV's. Not ordinary power line fluctuations but 
small surges?


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## lcaillo

It depends on what you mean by small. The ratings that you see in specs for durability in the hundreds of surges are in the order of 1000 amps. I would not expect most systems to see very many surges of this nature in a lifetime.


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## reed.hannebaum

There seems to be a lot of mixed signals on this topic.

According to Kenneth Brown, chairman of the Technical Committee at NEMA 5-VS Low Voltage Surge Protective Devices: “If MOVs are used within their well-defined specifications, degradation due to the environment is not likely. However, the environment that MOVs are used in is not well-defined. Low voltage ac mains are subject to lightning strikes, switching transients, voltage swells/sags, and temporary overvoltages (TOVs), and other similar disturbances. Due to the variety of disturbances that MOVs are exposed to, degradation or failure are possible in many applications.”

Also, according to Sensors Magazine: “Not all lightning is created equal. About 30% of all lightning strikes have a peak current of over 10 kA, while about 10% of all lightning strikes have a destructive current of over 50 kA (yes, that exceeds the rating of the protector you just bought!) A percent or two of strikes get over 100 kA! Strikes have even been recorded with current peaks well over 200 kA!”

However the above quote needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Due to a variety of factors, the current actually induced into a power line from lightning can be considerably less than these figures.


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## lcaillo

The reason that there are mixed signals is that the actual energy that needs to be dissipated, the time that it takes to dissipate, the paths that the current takes, and therefor the actual current that is experienced at any point in a system is so variable that it is hard to generalize. Every lightning strike affects not only the immediate property upon which it falls, but dozens nearby. Any one of many homes might see a 50kA surge or anything down to zero. Because grounding effectiveness varies so much the way in which the energy is dissipated is very much unpredictable.

As with most issues in the field of consumer electronics, one must combine reasonable analysis, theory, and field experience to come to conclusions that have the highest probability of being correct. Testing and theory tell us that MOVs can degrade with repeated operation. Field experience does not demonstrate large numbers of failures of MOVs, nor of devices connected to quality surge suppressors that use them.


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## brucek

Personally, I prefer the whole house surge protector if it suits your situation and pocketbook, although I do like the Tripplite for local protection . Seems everything you buy today has some electronic control device inside.

The whole house surge protector mounts at your AC service panel. These are typically in the $100 range, and are quite effective. In addition you get the added benefit of protecting the other equipment in your home too.

There are a couple of types. The circuit breaker type that plug in like any other circuit breaker would into your panel. These of course have to be made by the company that makes your loadcenter (Seimens, SquareD etc). There are also generic standalone types (obtainable from Home Depot, etc) that mount on the service panel backboard and are wired into the service panel. These have the advantage of not having to search out the exact breaker type. 

Standalone generic units also have a couple phone and cable and DSS surge protectors included on the box. Kind of handy, since lightning doesn't discriminate between the AC line, cable or telephone electrical path when it strikes. In fact, any protection in your home is second order at best since a true lightning strike in your yard develops mega-joules of energy, and there's no hiding from it. That's thousands times the best surge protectors that might absorb 2000 joules. The odds of direct lightning strikes are low, so the more reasonable spikes can best be shunted at the service panel where they enter.

An advantage of the breaker panel type whole house surge protector is that they usually provide a tell-tale set of breakers on the unit itself which trip when the MOV protection is compromised. This convenience alerts you by shutting down your equipment (or any high use circuit) that's connected to one of these breakers, rather than periodically checking the service panel breaker lights - not something anyone is likely to do. Each leg of the service panel is breakered with a tell-tale, so if you have a couple dedicated circuits (that you keep on the same leg), you could simply use one tell-tale to alert you.

I've installed a Siemans whole house protector on my system, but I also use some inexpensive local surge protection also at my equipment. The units I use there provide more MOV protection and some RFI filtering.

You might think that the whole house solution is bit pricey since the unit requires complete replacement when the MOVs are depleted. Personally, I think it's fairly cheap insurance considering the value of your electronic devices in a home. I completely agree with Leonard regarding the overstated notion that MOV's tend to deplete quickly. They're quite robust and many surge protector devices provide a convenient light to alert you to the MOV's health.

Here's a pic I had of my surge protector with the panel off.












brucek


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## lcaillo

I was going to post a similar challenge for whole hose units, but since you brought it up here, the best value that I have found so far is the Intermatic IG1240RC. It appears to have better protection and can be found for about $75, where the lowest price that I have found for the Siemens is $139.

Whole house units do not have signal line protection. The manufacturers like Siemens know that the best place to put suppression on signal lines is near the ground, which MUST be at the service entrance to the home, not the panel. They make discrete units for this purpose. Since the only place to connect an a.c. whole house unit is in the panel, they have to be there.

Nothing at all wrong with whole house suppression, but don't forget the signal lines, as you said. And most important, don't forget to verify the grounding.


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## reed.hannebaum

The Intermatic IG1240RC looks to be quite a capable device at a very reasonable price. An outfit called A+ Supply Co. is selling them for $55.95; http://www.aplussupply.com/intermatic/pg5000/ig1240.htm.

The Intermatic unit is listed as UL 1449 2nd Edition compliant. From what I have read, this is both a safety and a performance standard incorporating both ANSI & IEEE testing proceedures. This also appears to be the de-facto standard for the suppressor industry.


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## lcaillo

Thanks for the link. That is the best price that I have seen for this one.

I see that they offer the IG1300-2T, that incorporates phone and coax protection, so I stand corrected regarding my comments that the major manufacturers do not offer whole house suprressors with signal line protection. I am surprised to see this, because as a practical matter it is very unlikley for entry points to be in proximity to the panel. It would be a bad idea to route the signal lines to the panel just for this in most cases. Since the grounding on the signal lines MUST be at the entry point, the addition at the panel is only marginally better than proteciton at the system. Also, protection at the AV system that integrates all signal lines reduces the possibility of ground loops. IMO the best protection is to have a whole house suppressor for a.c. at the panel and individual system protection as well. Protectors at the entry point for cable, phone, sat, etc, won't hurt either, but good grounding is most important.


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## Tommy

russ.will said:


> Having lost my Denon AVR 3802 to a lightening strike, I was forced into researching this particular topic.
> 
> I settled on the Monster HTS 1000.
> 
> Russell


This all is way more technical then I want to get on the issue of surge protectors, I just want to make sure that I do get a good surge protector and i'm not wasting my money on an expensive one that doesnt work.

Russel thanks, I used your research judgement and ordered the same one


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## lcaillo

I'll put together some basics that need to be considered and try to keep it simple and post it.


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## russ.will

Tommy said:


> This all is way more technical then I want to get on the issue of surge protectors, I just want to make sure that I do get a good surge protector and i'm not wasting my money on an expensive one that doesnt work.
> 
> Russel thanks, I used your research judgement and ordered the same one


I hope we've made a decent choice. Fortunately, I've not had the chance to test it.

Cheers

Russell


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## Tommy

russ.will said:


> I hope we've made a decent choice. Fortunately, I've not had the chance to test it.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Russell


If ya already lost one projector due to a power surge, I'm assuming you checked to make sure you were getting a good protector this time... :T


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## russ.will

Tommy said:


> If ya already lost one projector due to a power surge, I'm assuming you checked to make sure you were getting a good protector this time... :T


It was actually my amp, but I think I did nicely on the PJ. Have a look at my public profile.

Russell


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## tomd51

I'm using a Tripp Lite HT10DBS Isobar in my main setup and a Panamax Max 4300 in my secondary configuration.

Considering some of the storms we get in the Atlanta area and how few power related issues I've encountered, I'd have to say I'm fairly pleased with them.... -TD


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## Tommy

Thunder storm here now and the cable is going on and off, I just unplugged the new plasma all together... hahaha


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## Phil M

I've lurked on this thread (way over my head) but it's reached a level of understanding for me.
I like the idea of the whole house approach with the Intermatic. I'm confident that this isn't going to degrade the audio or video performance of my equipment, but want to throw this question in the arena for confirmation from you experts.


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## Guest

Phil M said:


> I've lurked on this thread (way over my head) but it's reached a level of understanding for me.
> I like the idea of the whole house approach with the Intermatic. I'm confident that this isn't going to degrade the audio or video performance of my equipment, but want to throw this question in the arena for confirmation from you experts.


Just remember that you should still have protection on the signal lines that is best not done at the panel.

I recommend the following:

Verify your grounding. All signal lines MUST be grounded to the electrical service ground rod and all connections should be clean and tight. You should have no more than a few ohms of resistance between the a.c. ground and the signal line grounds when the lines are not connected to the system.

Whole house a.c. suppression in the breaker panel. An electrician should install it. Intermatic IG1240RC or similar.

A good basic system level SS with protection for all signal lines that all of the equipment can plug into for a.c. Tripplite HT1010SAT3 or similar.

A series/filter based unit only if there is a noise problem that cannot be solved at the source. ZeroSurge 2R15W or similar.


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## nathanso

Check out the Powervar ABC-1200-11 for around $215 on Ebay and Audiogon. I researched for quite a while before buying two, one for my 2-channel system and one for my wife's HT system. I don't watch much TV but I can tell you the Powervar has reduced the hiss on my 2-channel system to barely audible levels with ear inches from driver. The blacker background is obvious from the couch too.

I'm going to install a whole-house surge supressor soon too, but I don't expect any noticable benefit from it except (hopefully) no fried appliances/components come the next mega surge.


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## lcaillo

nathanso said:


> Check out the Powervar ABC-1200-11 for around $215 on Ebay and Audiogon. I researched for quite a while before buying two, one for my 2-channel system and one for my wife's HT system. I don't watch much TV but I can tell you the Powervar has reduced the hiss on my 2-channel system to barely audible levels with ear inches from driver. The blacker background is obvious from the couch too.
> 
> I'm going to install a whole-house surge supressor soon too, but I don't expect any noticable benefit from it except (hopefully) no fried appliances/components come the next mega surge.


This is apparently an isolation transformer. Not a bad price for its size. It is rated at 12A, curious for a unit marketed for audio purposes, since lots of audiophiles would never want to limit their current supply to 12A. Some complex systems might push it to its limit.

It is important to understand that this is an inductor based filter that, if it is a true isolation transformer, eliminates the direct path to ground for the system. This is OK if NOTHING else is connected to the system. As soon as you connect a signal source such as cable or sat to an AV system using one of these, you create a situation where the system grounding in only accomplished through the ground for the signal line and not the a.c. system. If a nearby lightning strike occurs where the ground side goes high, you have one less path to ground. In a simple system that is isolated, this is fine. In a complex system with interconnections between systems in the home, it is a bad idea IMO, to not have additional protection. 

Be very confident in the grounding of your system in all cases.

I am curious about the reduction in hiss. What do you attribute this to? I have done quite a bit of experimentation with filter systems and am surprised at this result. I am also surprised at the improvement in black levels. I know of no reason that filtering or isolation should affect this unless you had a ground loop problem. What equipment did this improvement take place in?


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## reed.hannebaum

I also have two of the ABC1200-11 units that I use for my HT system. I bought both of these units on EBAY; $201.05 & $219.95 including shipping. I called a distributor in Chicago and he told me they were selling them new for $978!

I also did some research on these units before purchasing and on isolation transformers in general. A good analysis of the benefits, myths, and pitfalls of using isolation transformers can be found at http://www.blackmagic.com/ses/bruceg/EMC/isolatrans.html. If properly designed, isolation transformers can provide a good degree of common mode and normal mode noise reduction. The efficacy of the Powervar unit in this regard is shown in their test results using an ANSI/IEEE specified noise pulse applied to the input.

In my application, I have the secondary neutrals connected together, the secondary ground leads connected to a cold water pipe, and my equipment load roughly divided between the two Powervar units.

Though I can make no claims about improved system performance, my intent has been that by providing clean power to my equipment I am eliminating another possible source performance degradation. To what extent this may be noticeable to my eyes and ears is unknown.


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## Guest

Leonard,

Here is another Tripp Lite alternative that is functionally stronger than the HT1010SAT3: HT10DBS
The advantages:
- Two isolated filter banks to minimize noise from connected components bleeding through to other components
- Separate telephone and Ethernet jacks can filter both satellite/cable telephone and HTPC/Network connections
- $500,000 of insurance (we should be so lucky!)
- Slightly better LED status information
- Slightly better joule rating
- Metal case

The best price I see after a quick look is $69.99.

If you need fewer outlets (6) and want three isolated filter banks, the ISOBAR6DBS is an alternative. The best quick look price I found on this one is $55.99.

I've used a Tripp Lite 8 outlet Isobar for the last 10+ years with no problems or faults whatsoever.


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## laserman

A big *thank you *to all who shared their knowledege on this topic.

I have gone with a full house surge suppressor unit in conjunction with point of use (POU) units. It is a little added insurance for my valuable equipment.

A really nice informative electrician told me he thought the manufacturer of my panel (GE) made a unit that plugged right into a double empty slot on the panel. I call a supplier and they in fact do. Best of all he told me how I could install it myself and save $$ on having him do it. If then GE didn't make one, I was going to have him install the Intermatic IG1240RC unit.

For POU, I will use either the tripp-lite ultra 6, Brick Wall, or comparable unit. I have a tripp-lite Ultra6 now in one system and did not notice a change in sound quality. Power amps will remain plugged directly into the AC outlets and certainly have some first line protection from the whole house surge suppressor.

Thanks again.


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## lcaillo

You are considering two very different animals. The Tripplite is a good MOV based surge suppressor with some filtering. The filtering is not likely to be as good as the Brick Wall which is a series device. If you think you need filtering, go with the Brick Wall type. If you prefer not to limit the available power to the rating of the transformer in a series unit, go with the TrippLite.


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## laserman

lcaillo, thanks for the info. I had read about both units and realized they were two different technologies. There are even different designs than these two. :dizzy: Icaillo, I'm not sure I understood which one has the filters in them?? It is the Tripp Lite or Brick Wall unit?

FYI, in my Googling around I discovered the OEM for the Brick Wall unit is none other than Zero Surge 

http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/standaloneres.html

A lot of good information on Zero's website. They really give MOV based surge suppressors a black eye. One has to read both their site and Brick Wall's to get all the specs on the unit. 

They are a little less expensive but I was thinking of getting the 2R15W for my amps. However, if they are filtering then I will stay clear of them and just continue to plug into the wall. I realize this is expensive but I would rather spend a couple of hundred now then to spend thousands later replacing equipment. In my case, I have two amps that are no longer made and I would have to spend a boat load to replace them.  

The whole house surge suppressor went perfectly. :yes: I was able to get a unit designed for my panel (GE) and it snapped right in place, after removing the panel face plate. It less than 10 minutes and the cost was under $50. My first line of defense is now complete! I listened to my system critically last night and there was no difference in sound quality. These things are truly transparent to audio. Okay, I am now ready to give the PS Audio Noise Harvesters a good audition (placed my order).

Thanks again.


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## Sonnie

laserman said:


> Okay, I am now ready to give the PS Audio Noise Harvesters a good audition (placed my order).


No you didn't? You didn't PM me for my address to ship them to? :huh:

On this subject of surge suppressors. I have something that my power company put on my meter that is supposed to protect stuff in my house from surges and line drop outs. Our fridge got fried from constant drop outs and I complained to the power company about it... that's when they offered this to me for $4 per month. Expensive over a course of time at $48 per year... but it does provide up to $1000 for anything in the house. They gave me in addition to this some small suppressors that cover up to $5000 that I use on my projector. It just a little 3 in 1 receptable convertor with a red and green light on it. Then they gave me a bigger strip type protector for up to $25000. I use it on my RPTV, satellte receiver, etc., in our great room. For the HT room I use a Panamax 5100 for most stuff and the Adcom ACE-515 for the two SVS subs. I had a cheaper Panamax that went out on me and they replaced it with the 5100 for $99 and the old unit. I've had the ACE forever and needed two more receptacles for my subs so figured I'd use it.

Should I not be using the Panamax and ACE and using something simpler like some of those mentioned in some of the above posts? I like these because they allow me to use them to cut on my system.


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## brucek

> using something simpler


Can you be more specific. 

Sounds like you have the situation covered already.

You have whole house surge suppression that seems to be a reasonable cost, since they will replace the unit for free if it gets fried. They also provide insurance that I suspect would be easier to collect on than the retail units insurance would be.

Then you have various local surge suppression and noise filtering at each piece of equipment.

What is your question? Hopefully you're not considering those wacky harvesters? 

brucek


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## Phil M

brucek said:


> What is your question? Hopefully you're not considering those wacky harvesters?
> 
> brucek


Brucek, I'm glad you bought up the Harvesters again :T 
Big Lou and I have tried them out in an audio environment, we now need a volunteer to try them out in a video environment. Now Sonnie has a HD player, and iffy electrical supply, wouldn't Cedar Creek be a great test environment :R


----------



## Sonnie

Okay... maybe I didn't word that right. "Simpler" doesn't really describe what I meant... I don't think.

Much of the info above I suppose is confusing me somewhat (not hard to do). Somehow it got me thinking the Panamax and ACE might be doing too much filtering or possibly not the proper type of filtering.


Sounds like I have the situation covered already. (Did somebody already say that? :sarcastic: )



NO... I was not thinking of buying the Harvesters, I'm saving my money for IB... but I'll test them if someone wants to buy them and send them to me. Better send someone to help me test them though. :R


----------



## Phil M

Thanks again for educating me on this - like BruceK and Laserman I've had a whole house surge arrestor installed in my AC service panel.
All of my digital components/processors/etc are also connected to a Richard Gray Power Conditioner, which also has surge protection. 
Do I use a Tripplite for my power amp (which is not connected to the RG), something else, or just rely on the whole house device?


----------



## brucek

> Do I use a Tripplite for my power amp


I think it's quite smart to also use 'local point of use' surge protectors for any residual spikes that may get past the whole house unit.

brucek


----------



## Phil M

brucek said:


> I think it's quite smart to also use 'local point of use' surge protectors for any residual spikes that may get past the whole house unit.
> 
> brucek


Any sonic performance degradation, or are they transparent?


----------



## brucek

> Any sonic performance degradation, or are they transparent?


They are completely transparent - in parallel with the AC line at a high impedance, so effectively out of the circuit until required..

brucek


----------



## Phil M

brucek said:


> They are completely transparent - in parallel with the AC line at a high impedance, so effectively out of the circuit until required..
> 
> brucek


Thanks, Tipplite is the next purchase.


----------



## rcarlton

I'm using the Belkin PureAV Power Console PF60. Looks great, good connected equipment warranty ($500,000). Costs about $180 new.

It is pictured in my stuff.


----------



## brucek

> I'm using the Belkin PureAV Power Console PF60. Looks great, good connected equipment warranty ($500,000). Costs about $180 new.


You must know someone on the inside because the web site for Belkin says its list is $749, but has a Limited time promotional price of $449.

Looks like a nice unit.

brucek


----------



## rcarlton

Try Provantage.


Noticed the price went up by $16 and it seems to no longer be in stock. Still a good price.


----------



## Phil M

rcarlton said:


> I'm using the Belkin PureAV Power Console PF60. Looks great, good connected equipment warranty ($500,000). Costs about $180 new.
> 
> It is pictured in my stuff.


Thanks Ron, like everyone else I was too busy ogling your amp the first time around and missed the PF60 :T 
I haven't seen the PF range before, but read great feedback from buyers on Amazon. As the PF60 also has some line filtering, in addition to surge protection, then it's a different animal than what I need (I have power conditioning with my Richard Gray) which is just non-current limiting surge protection for my amp. Nevertheless it's interesting you raise this as an option that includes power conditioning also - which I now understand benefits older amp designs.


----------



## Phil M

Question on cable/sat/telephone protection.
Some of the surge protectors also include protection for the above circuits, is this just to protect the pieces of equipment connected to these inputs or is it a discharge path that can also affect other equipment without these inputs but connected to adjacent outlets?
Hope this makes sense - not enough coffee yet


----------



## brucek

All your equipment is basically 'connected' together at some point. Cable TV wire will connect to the set top box and then outputs to the processor which outputs to the power amp etc.

Lightning plays no favourites between the AC line, cable or telephones electrical path when it strikes. It's wise to use surge protection on all these systems.

brucek


----------



## reed.hannebaum

I just got my Intermatic IG3240RC whole-house surge protector today. I went with the bigger unit because of the higher service capacity (600amps vs. 200amps) and slightly lower clamping voltage (330V vs. 400V). 

I bought this at a local electrical supply house for $107.86 with tax, which is a pretty good deal. Unfortunately, I walked in the house tonight with this new toy and there at the front door was my Parts Express order; one box containing a new Dayton driver for one of my subs, another box containing polly fill, and a third box with other miscellaneous stuff I ordered. And there, sitting on the living room couch was my wife, glaring at me (why Oh why does PE put things in separate boxes?).

No point in detailing the ensuing conversation we had, but let me just say I will have to finish a lot of honey-do's before I can even remove the tape from those boxes she believes I lust after.


----------



## lcaillo

Going back to the original post, I have a new possibility for the best value...

https://www.cablesforless.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2267


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## lcaillo

For $19.99, this seems to be the current winner, by far. An excellent value and decent build quality, IMO.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16812120408


----------



## Guest

Question. Is it ok to purchase, say the Monster HTS 1000, and plug in a cheaper Monster surge protector to expand the protection. Example: Say that I have more than 8 pieces of equipment, instead of using all 8 outlets, I use one of the outlets to plug in one of the Monster other surge protectors (cheaper version) to extend the protection of the HTS. Is this possible or even suggested/recommended?:huh: 

Thanks


----------



## tomd51

Methodical said:


> Question. Is it ok to purchase, say the Monster HTS 1000, and plug in a cheaper Monster surge protector to expand the protection. Example: Say that I have more than 8 pieces of equipment, instead of using all 8 outlets, I use one of the outlets to plug in one of the Monster other surge protectors (cheaper version) to extend the protection of the HTS. Is this possible or even suggested/recommended?:huh:
> 
> Thanks


I can't say I'd recommend it, but if all you have running on the secondary surge protector is low draw items (not an amplifier, amplified subwoofer, etc.), it likely wouldn't be too much of an issue... -TD


----------



## lcaillo

Methodical said:


> Question. Is it ok to purchase, say the Monster HTS 1000, and plug in a cheaper Monster surge protector to expand the protection. Example: Say that I have more than 8 pieces of equipment, instead of using all 8 outlets, I use one of the outlets to plug in one of the Monster other surge protectors (cheaper version) to extend the protection of the HTS. Is this possible or even suggested/recommended?:huh:
> 
> Thanks


The problems with cascading surge suppressors are that you may exceed the power rating of the unit and that you compromise suppression by adding resistance to the ground path on units connected to the second suppressor. Both can be mitigated by using only low power devices on the second suppressor that have no secondary connections to other systems such as cable, phone, or network.

Better to get a unit that has enough outlets or plug a couple of items that don't have connections to other systems into outlets on the back of your reciever or preamp.


----------



## Hakka

rcarlton said:


> I'm using the Belkin PureAV Power Console PF60. Looks great, good connected equipment warranty ($500,000). Costs about $180 new.
> 
> It is pictured in my stuff.


I just ordered a PF40 ($613AUD!!!). What are your thoughts on this unit? Did it effect sound quality?

Thanks.


----------



## jtwrace

I use these http://powergy.com/Residential.aspx I am amazed how much quieter my electric motors are and the t.v. looks. I use this then Richard Gray equipement at the stereo. I think it's as much as I can do within reason.

Take a look.


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## eugovector

From a practical stand point regarding picture and sound improvement...

When I bought my Tripplite HTPOWERBAR10, I spent a day switching things in and out, looking for improvements in sound and video. I didn't see any, and this was in a fairly old house that the lights would dim regularly during storms or when someone's fridge kicked in.

That being said, I sleep better at night now.


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## lcaillo

Some links that may be useful:

http://omegaps.com/Lightning Guide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf


----------



## Guest

Thanks for the info on the Tripp Lite equipment. I'll soon be adding a projector and moving our LCD to another room, so I'll need a couple of add'l surge protectors.

Incidentally, I have an old Tice Solo AV unit that I got through Audiogon years ago. I've been reasonably happy with it (haven't lost anything, but who says that I should have). What's the story on Tice Solo vs. the Tripp Lie Isobar units? I just need to decide where to use the Tice (w. LCD and equipment, w. equipment for projector, or with projector).

Of course, I could recycle the Tice on Audiogon and get 3 Tripp Lites.


----------



## lcaillo

If you are going to be using a projector, get a good outlet with a built in protector for it. For the rest of the system, make sure that you get a unit that protects all incoming lines. Before you by, post the equipment that you will be using and what products you are looking at for protection and I will be happy to check it out and make recommendations. Tripplite has some good stuff, but they are not always the best value or best protection.

Surge protection has become one of my strong interests, out of curiosity and the desire to prevent damage to our client's equipment. I won't sell you anything, but I do know what to look for and am happy to help. Where are you located and do you have any recurring power problems?


----------



## Guest

Thanks for the suggestion... I honestly I hadn't posted equipment details because I didn't want to jerk your thread around to get my own personal advice.

Projector will be Panasonic AX100U. I will be rear shelf mounting, and there is an existing outlet a few feet away from the projector shelf. A 4 outlet ISOBAR sitting on the lowest shelf of the projector shelf is the best way to hide power cords... that's why I was leaning that way. (1 outlet needed, may plug in other stuff on occasion so I figured I'd get 4).

Projector system will also have Toshiba HD A2, Verizon FIOS DVR, Receiver (Sony AVD-70ES for now, probably Onkyo 605 or similar in fairly near future), a Gamecube, and a custom powered sub that uses a Hypex HS500 amp (so, ~6 outlets leaves one open, but I don't mind having 8).

LCD system will be a Benq DV3750 LCD TV, Verizon FIOS DVR, Receiver (the Sony mentioned above will be here soon), VCR, a CD Changer, and an iPod AV dock. Might move the Gamecube up here if I ever get something else (so, ~8 outlets leaves breathing room).

I don't have the projector yet or the FIOS boxes, but this is what I plan to get. I figured that I'd just get a 4 outlet ISOBAR for the projector, and an 8 outlet HT Tripp Lite for the LCD system.


----------



## lcaillo

When you get an idea of the model you want to buy, post it here and we will check it out. The idea of the thread was to find the best value in surge suppression. My current favorite is still the CyberPower 1090 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812120408
which can be found for under $30 and has pretty good protection for the price.


----------



## F1 fan

Is anyone familiar with this companies products? http://www.zerosurge.com/


----------



## lcaillo

See post #5 in this thread for a discussion of this type of unit.


----------



## Danny

Has anyone considered a UPS for protection. They regulate the output voltage, provide backup in a power failure, and have inbuilt surge protection.


----------



## lcaillo

A UPS is not needed for protection, and they vary greatly in the quality of the protection that they offer. Some of the more expensive units that offer onnline regulation and pure sine wave output may be very effective, but it depends. In general, UPS devices are not a good value for protection and trade protection for the UPS option at low prices. Many have no protection for lines other than the a.c. line.

The bottom line is, it depends. You have to evaluate each unit on its own. It is very difficult to generalize.


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## F1 fan

lcaillo said:


> See post #5 in this thread for a discussion of this type of unit.


Thanks I should have backtracked further than I did.
I take you think that an MOV based device would be preferable to ZS series design.


----------



## lcaillo

MOV based units have been adequate in my experience, which includes nearly 3 decades of service and installation in Louisiana and north central Florida, two of the worst places for lightning in the nation. Filtering may be better than with MOV based units bot in terms of performance for the dollar, MOVs are very inexpensive protection. Many of the decent ones have a lifetime warranty.

I am open to comparisons, however. Pick a particular model and lets compare to that $25 CyberPower 1090.


----------



## F1 fan

Thanks again.Im looking at upgrading my protection and seen the ZS site and was wondering about the validity of their claims.I guess my best option would a whole house device or maybe just install a few of the duplex wall plates that incorperate 3 MOV's.Filtration is not needed as I feed my source components from a DIY balanced AC device.


----------



## alan monro

I dont know what is happening in your country , but , over here in Australia we are not allowed to have power surges or lightning strikes , it is just against the law.


----------



## F1 fan

alan monro said:


> I dont know what is happening in your country , but , over here in Australia we are not allowed to have power surges or lightning strikes , it is just against the law.


Our provincial government is looking seriously at passing a bill that will allow them to collect a tax on every lightning strike.:bigsmile:


----------



## lcaillo

F1 fan said:


> Thanks again.Im looking at upgrading my protection and seen the ZS site and was wondering about the validity of their claims.I guess my best option would a whole house device or maybe just install a few of the duplex wall plates that incorperate 3 MOV's.Filtration is not needed as I feed my source components from a DIY balanced AC device.


Most whole house devices do not protect anything but the a.c. line. They are fine additional protection, but I feel much better about a unit local to the system that protects all incoming lines. We see lots of damage from cable and sat lines that are unprotected. Mist duplex units are similarly not protecting the signal lines.

Make sure that your balanced power designe maintains ground integrity and that al of the signal lines into the home are properly grounded.


----------



## F1 fan

lcaillo said:


> Make sure that your balanced power designe maintains ground integrity


Yes the center tap from the secondary is tied to ground and I use a GFCI as the first outlet.


----------



## Guest

On cable systems where the coax is split to go to multiple rooms, why not put a surge protector inline with the cable line before it's split? I did a quick Google search, and found the following choices.

http://www.pccables.com/02404.htm
http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/coaxial_lightning_protectors.php
http://www.comm-omni.com/tii/tiicoax.htm


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## lcaillo

jackstraw said:


> On cable systems where the coax is split to go to multiple rooms, why not put a surge protector inline with the cable line before it's split? I did a quick Google search, and found the following choices.
> 
> http://www.pccables.com/02404.htm
> http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/coaxial_lightning_protectors.php
> http://www.comm-omni.com/tii/tiicoax.htm


This is a very good question, and in general a good idea, with some attention to the whole picture. There are a couple of issues here. 

First, if you want to protect the against a surge on the signal line, like the gas discharge tubes in most of the above suppressors, you want the location to be as close to the ground connection at the entry point as possible. You would want it to be right at the ground block or have its own ground block, preferably. You would NOT want it in the house just before a splitter or in a distribution panel. 

Second, most of the destructive srurges come in on the ground of the cable or sat line, not the signal line. The grounding at the entry point is very important, but having the extra connection at the surge suppressor local to the system may be a benefit as well. Consider what happens in a lightning strike that is nearby, say a tree in your yard. The ground may actually go high relative to the electrical system live side for a short period of time. At this point, all the grounding becomes a source for damage. A good surge suppressor will have MOVs that clamp that high ground side back to the lower potential of the electrical system. This is why better surge suppressors have H-N, H-G, and N-G protection. It is also why lots of systems on these suppressors survive very close strikes.

The bottom line is, ground the system properly, add as much suppression as you can afford, but make sure you do it while being mindful of where the surge will need to go.


----------



## Guest

I need a small unit to set on a shelf under my projector. I was thinking that I'd get an ISOBAR4ULTRA... any comments?

Have you tried the Cyberpower units, or is your assessment based on specs?

Thanks for the help.


----------



## lcaillo

The whole point of the thread was to compare specs, prices, and experience to find the best value. Go check the specs on the ISOBAR4ULTRA and the CP1090 and give us your opinion. I have given my opinion plenty of times here. Let's get some other analysis and other views. You be the consumer and compare. Post your results. We should not just rely on one perspective.


----------



## Guest

lcaillo said:


> When you get an idea of the model you want to buy, post it here and we will check it out. The idea of the thread was to find the best value in surge suppression. My current favorite is still the CyberPower 1090 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812120408
> which can be found for under $30 and has pretty good protection for the price.


This is what I was posting a response to. My analysis is that I've heard of ISOBAR units for years and they seem to offer good protection for the money?

Have you owned the Cyperpower 1090 or just read the specs? I'm not trying to argue at all, I just want to know if you have experience suggesting that it doesn't degrade audio/video performance in practical application.

Thanks.


----------



## lcaillo

A properly operating surge suppressor should not degrade audio/video performance at all. If it does then it is defective. I have used the CyberPower 1090, in fact I have several of them. I also use the Panamax units, as these are what we sell at the store at which I am service manager. The specs on the CP are good, and it has similar a.c. protection to the Panamax units (the ones that do not have over and undervoltage cut-off). The signal line suppression is more robust on the Panamax, but likely adequate on the CP, though the specs are not as somplete. Like most, the specs don't detail all of the protection on all of the lines as well as the Panamax.

The ISOBAR4ULTRA does not have any signal line protection at all, making it a poor choice, IMO, for an AV system. For your purpose, you likely do not need the signal lines if you are putting it on a projector. The MOV complement in the ISOBAR units is similar to the two mentioned above, so it should be fine. You may be able to get similar proteciton for less $$. The filtering may be better in the ISOBAR4ULTRA, but in my experience, which includes quite a bit of analysis on the matter, it is likely not going to affect the picture quality unless you have a serious noise problem on your a.c. line. Even then it will likely not make much difference.

Below are links to the specs on these units, including a Panamax unit that is similar to the ISOBAR. Note that the Panamax has a lower Joule rating and a lower current rating. In reality they are very similar. Taking apart the units you would find that they have similar MOVs in simialr configurations. The difference is, I think, that Panamax only states the maximum current capacity for one of the line combinations. The others state a combined capacity for multiple combinations. CP won't confirm this, but it is pretty obvious that the same size MOVs will not rate at several times the energy dissipation or current capacity. Panamax confirms that they only rate one combination because in a surge condition, it is impossible for MOVs across all the combinations to be conducting simultaneously. Tripplite shows that they have combined 2 paths by stating the two paths parenthetically. The point is they are all rather similar in protection. That being the case, I opted for the cheaper CP units for most of my systems, as I have found them as low as $19.95.

http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=99
http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/pr...?selectedTabId=specifications&imageI=#tab-box
http://www.panamax.com/products.cfm?group=2&sec=detail&id=83&ly=v

I apologize if I sounded dismissive. I was not trying to avoid helping you analyze the choices. I was hoping that others would chime in with other perspectives and their analysis of the information available on these and other units. There are surely more out there than these three brands, though these likely represent a good sample. What do you think?


----------



## Guest

Thanks for the info, it's really helpful to get advice from people who have used various equipment. That is why I responded the way that I did -- I'd hate to draw conclusions from my limited knowledge and reading specs.

But, it looks like a decent (~2k+) Joule rating, fast response time, and lifetime warranty should be expected. It's nice to see these units use right angle plugs and allow space for wall warts as well.

I'll definitely consider the CP units in the future, signal line protection is important. I recall DirectTV recommending against it when I had their service though. I have Comcast now, and I'm getting Verizon FIOS soon. Hopefully that won't be an issue.

I noticed the CyberPower Home Theater series -- it's more expensive but seems to have even higher specs and makes line conditioning claims. I've found it online for ~$50. I'm guessing that the higher specs are overkill, but might the line conditioning be worth $25 vs. the 1090?


----------



## lcaillo

I may open a can of worms here, but IMO, line conditioning claims are highly overstated. Go for surge protection for most video products unless you have a specific problem with noise. If you do, series mode and balanced power devices may be the best choice, but it is rare to have sucha problem. I'll discuss why in another thread so we can keep this one on topic. Look at the lack of detail in filtering specs. Most units talk about filtering but give you very little detail on what they actually do. For most systems it is simply irrelevant.


----------



## Guest

Why do you recommend the Cyberpower 1090 vs the 1080? It looks like the 1080 just has fewer coax and other inputs... do you have concerns about any specs on the 1080?


----------



## lcaillo

I have not checked out the 1080. What are the differences in specs? I have had the 1090 apart and found the MOVs to be very similar to the Panamax units that we use a lot of, and the other lines typical of similar products. The 1080 is unknown to me.


----------



## Guest

Here are the specs (pasted from www.thenerds.net). The 1080 seems to have higher power handling and higher surge energy rating.

1080

Technical Information
Plug/Connector
Type Right Angle
Receptacles
10 x NEMA 5-15R
Dataline Protection
RG-6 Satellite/Antenna/Cable TV/Cable Modem
Protection Type
RJ11 (One-in/Two-out) RG-6 (Three-in/Three-Out) H-N Line: 120kVA H-G Line: 30kVA N-G Line: 30kVA Response Time: Clamping Voltage: 330V Attenuation: Up to 58dB
Power Description
Input Voltage
110 V ACto 120 V AC ±5%
Output Voltage
120 V AC
Current
15A
Frequency
60 Hz
Power Handling
180kVA
Surge Energy Rating
3600J
Filtering
EMI/RFI 150KHz to 100MHz
Circuit Breaker
1 x 15A Resettable
Power Switch
Rocker Switch

1090

Technical Information
Plug/Connector Type
Right Angle
Receptacles
10 x NEMA 5-15R
Dataline Protection
RJ-45 10/100Base-T Ethernet
Protection Type
RJ11 (One-in/Two-out) RJ45 (One-in/One-out) RG-6 (Two-in/Two-Out) H-N Line: 45kVA H-G Line: 45kVA N-G Line: 45kVA Response Time: Clamping Voltage: 330V Attenuation: Up to 58dB
Power Description
Input Voltage
110 V ACto 120 V AC ±5%
Output Voltage
120 V AC
Current
15A
Frequency
60 Hz
Power Handling
60kVA
Surge Energy Rating
3000J
Filtering
EMI/RFI 150KHz to 100MHz
Circuit Breaker
1 x 15A Resettable
Power Switch
Rocker Switch


----------



## lcaillo

They look pretty similar, and I can see no reason not to go with the 1080. Like I said, I have not taken one apart, but I would be surprised if it was not similar contruction. They may have a slightly different circuit board layout to get the higher power handling. Is it a newer unit?


----------



## Scuba Diver

Great information. Information like this really helps me to make an informed purchase. I lost a couple low cost DVD players recently. I was lucky that was all I lost. Now with more expensive toys I want to be sure to get something that works. Thanks for the post.


----------



## ham

*Re: Surge Suppressors for high amp equipment*

Have read thru the entire thread, and appreciate the excellent info.

My question is that I have 3 amps, one for the theater and two for the subs. Each is capable of pulling 15-20 amps. I currently use a Monster Cable strip which I've had for 6 or 8 years. Plugging all three into it popped the circuit breaker right away, so I have only my HT amp plugged into it.

Is there a recommended 30 amp suppressor that I could put the two sub amps on? Or should I just get 3 suppressors and call it a day? And, finally, best ones with 12v trigger (or rec for external hi amp trigger), as the sub amps don't have 12v triggers built in.


----------



## steiny93

when i faced that challenge i went down the 3 suppressor route
biggest reason for me was because for power supply i had 3 different 20 amp circuits and I couldn't support two amps on a single breaker, additionally i didn't find a bunch of 30amp supressors avaiable


----------



## styels

I've lost a dvd player to a power surge


----------



## ham

steiny93 said:


> when i faced that challenge i went down the 3 suppressor route
> biggest reason for me was because for power supply i had 3 different 20 amp circuits and I couldn't support two amps on a single breaker, additionally i didn't find a bunch of 30amp supressors avaiable


Which surge suppressors did you end up buying? Also, I plugged the cable into the surge suppressor, and it weakened the signal. The cable is grounded at entry, and the cable dudes said not to ground (no- meant to say don't run thru surge suppressor) it due to signal degradation.

Any advice?


----------



## steiny93

we've been using the furman's, p-8 I believe, the 20amp rack mounted version, have a stack of them hiding 
for the cable we've switched to dish and just ground the sat system


----------



## perritterd

lcaillo said:


> While the concept of filtering surges (Zero Surge, BrickWall, etc.) as opposed to current dumping(using MOVs) has great merit, it is not the complete solution that ZS would suggest, and some of the conclusions and statements on their web site are misleading and incorrect. For instance, they say that "only normal mode surges enter buildings" and base this on the assumption that because the ground and neutral are bonded together at the building service entrance that no voltage can exist on the ground or neutral side. This is a large and faulty assumption and the conclusion that three-way or all-mode protection is not required is, IMO, faulty. It is not uncommon for the ground to go high in a nearby lightning strike, even when grounding is proper. In these cases, having MOVs to dump current back to the normally "hot" side may be a big benefit.
> 
> Inductor/filter based devices are quite useful, but only up to the limits of their capacity. Large capacity units are relatively expensive. The advantage to MOVs is that they are cheap and dump current to whichever side is low when the voltage across them is exceeded. They may lose effectiveness with repleated use, but the amount of energy needed to degrade them is not typical of frequent surges.
> 
> The other limitation of the ZS and other massive filter based devices (and with most whole house suppressors) is that they typically ignore other signal lines into the system such as cable, sat, line level audio, phone, and network lines. Having protection on these can be important, and having local single point grounds can alieviate interference and gournd loop problems. I see enough damage from ground (i.e. common mode) surges that is catastrophic that IMO it is an important aspect of surge suppression.
> 
> Ideally, a large capacity inductor based unit followed by a more typical MOV based product with signal line protection would be ideal, but perhaps overkill. The Tripplite unit that I posed as a reference to make comparisons to seems to have reasonable protection for a low price, though there have been some reports of signal loss in the coax lines. I suspect that those are due to poorly made connections, since the bandpass specs that I have seen for them are typically more than adequate. I'll order one and check it out. My challenge still stands to find a better value...either something close in price that offers similar or better protection and features, or something cheaper that does the same.
> 
> Most important to remember is that one MUST have good grounding where all incoming lines are grounded to the electrical service ground electrode at the entry point to the home or no type of surge suppression will be as effective as it could be. I recommend checking your grounds at least once a year for corrosion and to verify that they are tight. Don't let cable or sat installers get away with not grounding your system properly. They must do it according to code and your local county inspectors will force them to do so if they refuse.


Hello. I read your quote above and am wondering, (hope this is the proper place for this question) what is the proper way of grounding a SAT system? My system is obviously connected to my A/V system and, after reading what you wrote, now am becoming concerned about my system because the SAT installer only mounted the antenna and connected coaxial-nothing else! Should there have been an outside ground and, if so, can I do or repair this problem and how do you recommend doing this? 

Thanks, 
Bob


----------



## steiny93

all of our sat systems are grounded at the switch block (its the block that is inline between the sat dish and the sat receiver) we have a ground line running from those blocks to the single ground point (typcially a ground rod)

my understanding is that grounding at the switch block is the proper method


----------



## lcaillo

That would be correct, as long as the block is at or near the entry point the home. The ground wire should be as short as possible and must be connected to the electrical system ground electrode. The mast of the satellite dish must also be grounded to the electrical system ground electrode.

If you look in the first few pages of your television or sat receiver owners manuals you will see a discussion of proper grounding with diagrams. The bottom line is that any line entering the home must be grounded to the electrical system ground. Any additional ground rods or electrodes in the system must be bonded to that system as well. Local codes may have additional sp[ecific requirements, but the NEC is the basis for most in the US.

For more detail on grounding see this thread:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/general-service-technical-information/7442-grounding.html


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## steiny93

interesting,
I wasn't aware that the dish itself was supposed to be grounded
I'm certain that only our switches are grounded and not the dishes (not that it makes it right)

On the dish itself is there a location on the super dish for example where one is to attach a ground? I don't recall seeing one and I'm not seeing it within the install guide.


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## lcaillo

There is usually a grounding screw on them.

You are lucky that your installation is grounded at all. In our area, the majority have not been installed with proper grounds, or any at all.

If your coax is grounded you are probably pretty well protected, but it certainly is better to have the dish grounded as well.


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## steiny93

oh yah, if it wasn't for my insistance none of our switches would have been grounded, but living in an area with nasty t-storms figured that getting any extra bit of protection would be worth the effort

the installers have been pretty decent to work with, but yah, in general they don't want to deal with the grounding


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## perritterd

Leonard, I have been reading the thread about grounding. I've followed your links about grounding. I've even printed out all the pics about grounding at the NEC code website you linked to. I am no electrician...I did not see, or perhaps understand, how you ground the coaxial. I went out and checked my electrical ground coming into the house and they utilized the water main into the house as the ground. I believe I read that you do not recommend the addition of a ground rod to the system. I am probably 20' from the electrical ground and my antenna is only a couple of feet from the horizontal input of the coaxial into my house (about 10-12' vertical). Am I correct in assuming that I should ground the antenna and also the mast coming off the antenna or just the mast-and does it matter if I utilize an existing hole for a bolt or not or try and find the ground for the Directv HD antenna?

Thanks for any help about this...
Bob.


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## lcaillo

The goal is to get the shortest run possible without sharp turns, with the least resistance, to the ground electrode of the electrical system. You can drop another ground rod, if it can be done safely, then bond the new one to the electrical system ground, check your local code for the size wire required. Both the antenna mast and the coax need to be connected to ground.


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## perritterd

lcaillo said:


> The goal is to get the shortest run possible without sharp turns, with the least resistance, to the ground electrode of the electrical system. You can drop another ground rod, if it can be done safely, then bond the new one to the electrical system ground, check your local code for the size wire required. Both the antenna mast and the coax need to be connected to ground.


Leonard, thank you for responding to my question...I, unfortunately, was lost after *the least resistance, to the ground electrode of the electrical system* :doh:, and, forgive my ignorance, how do you ground the coaxial???

Thank you for your *"PATIENCE*...
Bob


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## lcaillo

At or near the entrance to the home there should be a ground block. It looks like a barrel connector with a screw that allows you to insert a ground wire. That ground wire goes back to the ground rod on the electical service, connecting the shield on the coax to the earth ground for the electrical system. You should only have a few ohms between the coax ground and the electrical system ground, no more, less resistance is better.

Let's keep this thread on topic and post any further discussion of grounding in a new thread.


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