# Emotional Connection To Music



## mikesorensen06 (Jul 2, 2012)

I see many posts and comments about the best this or the best that. Is this the best unit I can get to do this or is it the best for that. What does "best" mean? I do not know but I know what it means to me.

It is best if it helps you, the listener, make a deeper emotional connection to the music played in your room. Some things make more of a difference than others in this pursuit, but the pursuit and goal of a deeper emotional connection, it must be. 

Taking the chosen unit and placing it in your system is the only way I have found that works for me. 

Anyone have any other ideas?

Regards,
mikesorensen06


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Glad you could join us, Mike!



mikesorensen06 said:


> Taking the chosen unit and placing it in your system is the only way I have found that works for me.
> 
> Anyone have any other ideas?


Yes, taking it out and noticing if you miss it or not.

Blind testing is another way, although not easy to pull off.


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## mikesorensen06 (Jul 2, 2012)

Thank you for the invitation. Your forum is well organized and presented.

It seems to me that after basic numbers have been met in our equipment specs, such as frequency response and distortion, so that we are able to hear everything without too much noise, we then must focus on the "personality" of the unit itself.

The personality of the unit is really the personality of the unit's designer. It is the designer's idea of what a good sounding amplifier should sound like and designer gets that sound by changing this or that number in the equipment specifications to produce the unit's final sound. 

Some speakers have a warm, middle range and are known for that in the industry. I believe that this warmth is what the designer considers part of good sound quality. Some amplifiers are more detailed in their presentation of these middle frequencies. Once again, this is an area that the designer wants to cover in his presentation of good sound and he does this through his equipment and its specifications.

My goal is to invite as many designers and engineers to my cocktail party, have a cocktail with them all, and then forget I am at a party.

Cheers,
mikesorensen06





mikesorensen06


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

First, welcome to HTS!!!  

I agree with your definition of, "Best." I think that part of the problem is that what is most important to me (imaging/accuracy are high on _my_ list) may not be the least bit important to someone else. "Bad" may be fairly easy to qualify, but I believe that "best" is a subjective adjective.


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## mikesorensen06 (Jul 2, 2012)

Thanks!

Imaging and accuracy are very important and high on my list of sonic requirements. These two variables are a must have, before anything else can begin to make any sense to me. 

There is an acoustical synergy that occurs between well matched components, where the individual components produce something that is greater than the sum of all the parts. These selected components probably fit well together from a technical standpoint, such as impedance matching with speakers and amplifiers. This allows them to sound their best because they are working with another component that operates within their design parameters. However, there is something else, something much greater. 

It is similar to the "magic" we get in producing a sound stage with just two stereo speakers. I am continually amazed every time I listen to my two channel system. This amazement still continues for me after 40 years of listening. I want to be continually amazed and never take this great joy of ours for granted. 

It is difficult for me to look at the specs of an unit and wonder how that will sound in my own system. Even if all the technical information is a go and works with all my other components, will this new component in my system give me better imaging and more accuracy. Will it create a larger sound stage? Will I hear more of the music? 

It is amazing how quickly those questions get answered when you plug that new component into your existing system. If one is undecided about certain things you hear, listen longer. The answer is in the music.

Cheers,
mikesorensen06


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

Another welcome to HTS. Excellent first post. To my way of thinking it's about "goose bumps". If a system playing music gives me goose bumps that's all that matters. I couldn't care less about specs and blind testing. If I get goose bumps I'm happy and satisfied.


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## mikesorensen06 (Jul 2, 2012)

Thanks, Joe.

"Goosebumps" is a great word for what we are seeking. Goosebumps are the physical reaction we get from the emotional connection to the music. I use the word emotional but I use it for lack of other words to use.

We all have that guitar break or vocal solo that grabs our complete attention, no matter how many times we here it or on what source we hear it. Even an old car radio with two dash mounted speakers can deliver the music and we react in the same way all of the time. 

Goosebumps are one reaction. I have friends who when they hear "their" sound get tunnel vision. I know what their sound and song is, so I try not to play it when they are driving.

I decided a few years ago to try and quantify goosebumps and tunnel vision and put a number to these events. We had 20 friends and associates bring that one song that is "it" for them to our studio. We then measured respiration, heart rate, skin response, and a host of other variables while their song was played for them and they sat restricted in a chair..

After we obtained the data, I had second thoughts about the project and stopped it. I decided I did not need any number to quantify anything. Lets just leave the music and emotions it creates well enough alone. Somethings in life are better off not explained.

Regards,
mikesorensen06


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

I understand not needing to quantify things. That's how I feel about equipment specs. I don't bother reading them anymore. Not because I don't understand or comprehend them (I'm a retired Electrical Engineer) but because they don't seem to have very much to do with how something sounds and how much emotional enjoyment it provides.

Some of my music really does give me "goosebumps".:coocoo:


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

JoeESP9 said:


> I understand not needing to quantify things. That's how I feel about equipment specs. I don't bother reading them anymore. Not because I don't understand or comprehend them (I'm a retired Electrical Engineer) but because they don't seem to have very much to do with how something sounds and how much emotional enjoyment it provides.
> 
> Some of my music really does give me "goosebumps".:coocoo:


:TT  This statement may seem silly to some, but I believe what I _hear_ more than what I read. Specs have their place, but they are not a substitute for listening...IMHO.


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## pharoah (Jul 21, 2012)

i think the most important part.would be have a system that makes things sound real.for instance a drum should sound like a drum.not just some muddy thump noise.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

Now you get into the question of what that "drum" actually sounds like. The problem with virtually all popular music is that you have no way of knowing exactly what the original sounds like. With all the mixing, tweaking, eq'ing and re-eq'ing we have no idea what is accurate and what isn't.

This is why I use unamplified classical music to determine how close (accurate) my system is to the real thing. There is no ambiguity concerning how unamplified instruments sound. I frequently attend live classical music concerts so my memory is always fresh. It's a given that my system will never sound like the Philadelphia Orchestra at the Kimmel Center. However, I know that the closer I get to getting that sound at home the better my system is. I also know that the better my system does at reproducing classical music the better it does on everything else.

I say the only reference for system accuracy and quality is classical music. This is because it's the only constant and consistent reference. The closer I get to that reference the more "goose bumps" I get when listening to everything.


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## pharoah (Jul 21, 2012)

i hear responses like that on forums all the time.ive heard enough real drums in my lfe to know what a drum sounds like.


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## mikesorensen06 (Jul 2, 2012)

Hi Wes,

I completely agree that one "hears" more than one reads. This is probably the underlying reason behind why all of us approach the world through audio and sound. I think it was Dizzy Gillespie that said he liked music but he listened to sounds. 

I try not to chase numbers anymore with equipment. As long as I can emotionally connect to the music, I am fine. However, in order to get as much of the emotion out of the equipment as I can, I need certain minimums and standards in equipment.Those minimums can be easily found with today's amplifiers and speakers which are not the only components.

The component that continually amazes me with its % impact on the overall sound quality is the room. I am amazed every day at how much impact each wall and ceiling section has on the sound heard at the listening position. One can actually create depth and distance with the room acoustics, just like stereo when it came out used to say "get depth and distance" in your presentations with new stereo signal. 

Had I known what I do now, 20 years ago, I could have saved myself a lot of money in gear. Thinking back, I probably would not had as much fun, though. It was always nice getting a new box to plug in. Still kind of is.

Regards,
Mike


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## mikesorensen06 (Jul 2, 2012)

Hi Joe,

Classical is a great basis for determining one's reference. It has everything within it that one needs to "test" for in their equipment and room sound. You are correct, the more sound heard, the closer we all can get to that needed emotional impact.

It is always neat to hear a recording on our own system after we have dialed it in by playing it hundreds of times and then hear it on another system. We know the connection is there but we don't feel it from the new system.

I know engineers who record classical and monitor those recordings through headphones because of all the information present in classical music. They do not want to take a chance in missing any information in the mix by having monitors and room sound getting in the way.

Regards,
mike


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

That would be sufficient if you listened only to drums and drummers. Even those can and do sound different depending on the drummer, the way he tunes them and the brand of drums. Tympani's in different orchestras are all tuned to the same frequencies.

You have no idea what a given guitarist's "axe" sounds like unless you have heard it with the amplifier and strings he's using at that time. In fact, any music that's been amplified has no real reference. Please don't misunderstand. I'm not pushing classical music over anything else. I am a jazz playing bass player who listens to a wide variety of music. 

My point is that only unamplified classical music is a true reference because there is universal agreement on what the sound of unamplified acoustic instruments are supposed to sound like. 

It's been my experience that the better a system does reproducing unamplified orchestral music the better it does everything else. It took me years of involvement in this hobby to reach this point. I didn't always like or appreciate classical music. As my gear got better and I got older I slowly began listening to more and more. Today it's my primary reference for accuracy in reproduction although only 15% of the music I play is classical.

Well, it's time to play some of the music I recently imported from Africa.:yikes:

I should mention I have a dedicated acoustically treated room for listening.


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## mikesorensen06 (Jul 2, 2012)

Hi Joe,

For me, a well recorded classical piece and it must be well recorded, has everything that is needed in terms of frequency response, dynamics, and separation. Drums produce large amounts of low frequency energy and are a good source to use when tuning your room for low frequency rate and level of attack.

The dynamics that appear when a drum attacks and decays into say a flute or violin is a good test of one's room resolution and ability to define the attack and let the decay be controlled and focused so lower pressure producing instruments can be heard. Level is important in low frequency energy room reach but rate is also needed. High, quick rates of low frequency absorption makes the attack and decay paradigm easier to manage. having well managed attacks and decays brings me closer to the music because I can hear more and more hearing does equal more emotion. Wes hit the nail on the head. 

Separation of instruments and vocals is another good subjective room quality. Any comb filtering in our room presentation will be revealed quickly by a classical piece that is well recorded. Numerous instruments playing together will show very quickly the room distortions. A blurring or smearing of any, say a violin section playing together, will appear quickly using a quality classical source.

If the room gets out of the way and lets everything through clearly and completely, we are on our way to good listening. Tell me about your dedicated listening room.

Regards,
Mike


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

I live in a row house in inner city Philadelphia. I'm a retired bachelor and own my home. Consequently I can do what I want to the insides.

I knocked down the wall between my living and dining rooms to make one large listening room. It has a mix of absorbing panels, bass traps, throw rugs, diffusers and strategically placed reflective devices. My gear, ~1600 CD's and ~1500 LP's complete the decor. I've used REW and a Behringer DSP-1124P to fine tune the response. I've done as much as I reasonably can to remove room effects from the equation. 

I made the acoustic panels and bass traps myself using Owens Corning fiberglass and wood frames. They are covered in colorful (decorator approved) fabrics and don't overpower the room. Acoustically treating a room doesn't require subscribing to the agricultural school of design. 

As a socially active bachelor my lady friend and I entertain frequently so my room has to be comfortable for guests as well as myself. Admittedly the "sweet spot is rather small (two persons wide) but for movie watching with guests it sounds pretty good.

When I get around to acquiring a camera I'll post some pictures. I don't have a cell phone (with camera) as I had a laryngectomy last November and I'm no longer able to speak so a cell phone is an unnecessary expense.

All my gear except for a 42" LCD and various computers (including a music server) is listed in my signature. I use my ARC preamp and only the front speakers amplifiers, etc and sub woofers for all two channel sources and material. All surround/MC sources are connected to my processor. The front channel line outs from the processor go to my preamp operating in bypass mode for any surround/MC material. 

I use phantom center channel mode as four large full range esl's and three sub woofers are obtrusive enough. I don't have room for another esl for a center channel speaker. Nothing else will match tonally or timbre wise.


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

pharoah said:


> i think the most important part.would be have a system that makes things sound real.for instance a drum should sound like a drum.not just some muddy thump noise.


For GREAT drum sounds, check-out the _Hot Stix_ download here. FWIW-I have downloaded several of these free tracks without a problem.


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## pharoah (Jul 21, 2012)

wgmontgomery said:


> For GREAT drum sounds, check-out the _Hot Stix_ download here. FWIW-I have downloaded several of these free tracks without a problem.


ah cool thanks i will check those out a bit later.i do like classical and jazz.so it will be fun.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

I have Ed Graham, Hot Stix and Bill Berry, For Duke on direct to disc LP's. The sound from the LP's is an order of magnitude better than any 265KB mp3 file. They are among the best sounding recordings I've ever heard. 

Downloading any of the available files will give a small taste of how good those recordings really sound.

If any of the M&K recordings are available as reissued CD's I highly recommend them. Of course they would be sourced from whatever back up tapes were made at the time of the original recordings.


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## pharoah (Jul 21, 2012)

better than 256k absolutely.all my digital files are 1411 kbps wav.basically a direct rip of a cd.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

If they offer them on CD they would probably be from 30ips two track master tapes. As they were originally direct to disc recordings there is no mixing or studio sweetening in any of the M&K recordings.

For those who've never heard a direct to disc recording, you owe it to yourselves to search out one of the CD reissues of any direct to disc recording. The reissues are not quite as alive sounding but they're very close. I know that many Sheffield Lab recordings have been reissued. 

Jazz At The Pawnshop is another superb recording worth searching out.


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

JoeESP9 said:


> Downloading any of those files will give a small taste of how good those recordings sound.


I don't doubt that the direct-to-disc LPs sound fantastic, but these free downloads still sound great!


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

Considering the source they would have to.


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## mikesorensen06 (Jul 2, 2012)

Hi Joe,

Thanks for sharing. It is nice to see you have taken the extra steps including increasing space size by removing walls. I am a big fan of structural improvements myself. And you are correct, room treatment can be built to look blended into the decor, but it must have the surface area to work in. I had a client ask me the other day if I could put all the room treatment in the closet, so it would not be seen.

Can you give me your room dimensions? I am very curious about the three subs you have and the total room size and volume. I have always liked the 3 sub arrangement but never knew anyone who had it. I have asked in other forums, but only 1 or 2 in, say in a year, have responded and they did not own the system but had heard it once or twice somewhere else.

Next month, I will begin building my sixth listening room in 9 years. I am building it one block (8"x 8"x 16") at a time on a 6" poured slab using a new technique of filling the cinder block with charcoal for a combination of low frequency absorption and barrier technology. Each cinder block will be its own self contained module with absorption and barrier properties.

The walls will be 16" thick after all layers are attached to each block module. It will be modular and can be assembled and taken down. It will weigh over six tons. It will also have its own freestanding roof system. My goal is to have it finished, at least the four walls, by Xmas. I want to be able to take this one with me when I leave. 

Regards,
Mike


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

My room dimensions are ~14' x 30' x 9' there is an asymmetrically placed open doorway to a 14' x 12' x 9' kitchen on the back wall. The front wall has my front door and a double window. All the windows have venetian blinds and heavy curtains that are closed for serious listening.

My two front subs are TL enclosures made from 12" PVC sewer pipe. Each U shaped sub is assembled from three straight sections and two 90 degree angles. The PVC enclosures replaced two 8' Sonotubes. They are functionally identical to a Sonotube but not so visually dominating. They also take paint better. The original (Sonotube) subs came from the Pass DIY website (El-Pipe-O). They are both located behind and quite close to my front speakers. They have been equalized flat to ~18Hz.

My rear sub is actually the SPW-1 woofer box that came with my Acoustat Spectra 22's (front speakers). It's actually a dual sub (4 x 6" woofers/2 per side) in one large box. It sits midway between my rear Acoustat Model 1's. While my speakers are well away from the front (50") and rear (40") walls they are relatively close to the side walls. The figure 8 radiating pattern of dipoles allows for this.

Perhaps you could tell your client that you could place the treatments in the closet if that was where all the listening would be done.:R


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## mikesorensen06 (Jul 2, 2012)

Hi Joe,

Nice to see round low frequency, speaker cabinets. They always made sense to me and the only ones I know about are HSU Research which uses the round tube format. I have never heard them. It must produce about as resonant free sound as one can get in an enclosure. Nice to see 30' room dimension.

Does the 14' dimension give you any low frequency issues when all 3 subs are moving air? 

Regards,
Mike


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

All the dimensions give me low frequency issues. Fortunately the bass traps, absorbers and most especially the Behringer have pretty much tamed them. Having distributed bass has actually helped smooth the overall bass response. My subs are asymmetrically placed which contributes to their combined smoothing action.

When playing two channel music only the two front subs and and speakers are used. I do have some concerts on DVD and some music in multichannel however it's in the minority. 

There used to be several companies making subs with tubular enclosures. They make a lot of sense to me. They are inherently rigid and need no bracing. They are simplicity itself. For transmission lines, get the diameter tube that matches the speaker diameter. Cut the tube slightly shorter than 1/4 of the F3 wavelength. Stuff with the correct amount of acousta stuff. The correct amount is determined using test tones and a microphone. Adding stuffing increases the tube's apparent length.

For a ported enclosure cut the tube to provide the right enclosure size. Put the speaker on one end and a cap with the correct size port on the other. For a sealed enclosure cut the tube to provide the proper volume and cap the end opposite the speaker. You can even (heaven forbid) glue the speaker and caps on with silicone sealant.

Don't like the way the tube looks? Wrap it in any kind of fabric from Spandex to an oriental rug. Don't want a fabric covering? Spray paint it with some Krylon.


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## mikesorensen06 (Jul 2, 2012)

Hi Joe,

Great information. Tell me about the bass note quality you receive from a tube vs. box. What is major difference? It has to be better with attack and decay of notes?

The process of bending the rules of physics to make the tube "appear" acoustically longer is called ACE or acoustic compliance enhancement. It is a fancy word for hearing more because of less internal resonances or noise. We use ACE in bass absorbers.

Can you recommend any particular driver to use? If not your current driver, what would be other possibilities?

I think I am going to build a pair for my new listening room. I will use charcoal as the absorption material to increase ACE inside the tube. 

Regards,
Mike


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

I don't think the enclosure type has much if any bearing on the quality of the bass. IMO/E any properly designed and constructed enclosure will give good results. I've heard good bass from TL, ported, acoustic suspension and infinite baffle enclosures. Enclosures made from Sonotubes need no bracing whatsoever and consequently are the easiest to make. Once you cut the tube to the proper length you can use Silicone rubber sealant and glue the speaker to the tube! BTW, that's not what I did. I had mounting rings cut from MDF and glued the rings to the tubes.

I'm familiar with the ACE principle. I started with a calculated amount (there is a formula for it) of Acousta Stuff and adjusted the amount using test tones REW and a calibrated microphone.

I use 12" Titanic speakers from Parts Express. The power handling, sensitivity, X-max, F3 and price were in the ballpark for my purposes.

IMO using charcoal as stuffing is not a good idea. With a transmission line you do not want to absorb the rear wave output. It seems to me that charcoal would do just that. You want to impede the flow if you need to adjust the effective length of the tube. That's why you calculate the tube length using the F3 of the woofer and cut the tube just slightly shorter than the calculations suggest. 

The stuffing is used as an acoustic length adjuster. It's not for absorbing the rear wave. If you absorb the rear wave it's no longer a transmission line.

I went with Sonotube construction because my woodworking skills and tools are minimal. The move to using U shaped PVC sewer pipe for my subs came about two years ago. The 8'+ tall Sonotubes were just to overbearing in appearance. I've got all manner of electronic test gear including a 60MHz storage scope, distortion analyzers and signal/tone generators but only hand tools for woodworking. 

I recommend taking a look at the Pass DIY site for the El-Pipe-O project and the site below for some insight and information. There are several other DIY TL sites that I would also check out.

http://www.diysubwoofers.org/tls/


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## mikesorensen06 (Jul 2, 2012)

Hey Joe,

I can live with the length. It will be interesting to model the pressure maps in my new room with long tubes. I like your driver attach mechanism. I will have the guys in the shop build it.

Our activated carbon filters permit air flow through them. Granted, not as permeable as spun fiberglass, but much more powerful. Our filters like energy below 80 cycles, so it should be interesting to hear. I plan a series of them for installing and removing, as we test through the design with carbon filters.

I am surprised their is no sonic difference between a tube and box. Just the air movement difference alone and reduced resonances, one would think contributes something sonic. Interesting stuff. 

What did you do before retirement?

Thanks,
Mike


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

Note, I said properly designed and constructed box. The Wilson sub woofer is an example of a properly designed and constructed box. Use a stethoscope and listen to the vibrations in the cabinets of most sub woofers. Those vibrations are wasted energy. They add coloration to the sound. A tube is inherently rigid and non resonant.

The rear wave from a transmission line should not be filtered. It is after all a form of horn. You don't filter the rear wave from a horn and you shouldn't filter the rear wave from a TL.

I started out with a Elec. Eng. I went into the biomedical field and became a Biomedical Engineer specializing in life support equipment (ventricular assist devices, respirators, etc.). I became tired of working in a hospital environment and being around sick people and went back to school for my MS Comp. Sc. I ended up teaching electronics and computer languages before starting my own consulting business. Although I'm officially retired I still have several small corporate and more than a few private customers. Keeping up with my certifications costs me several hundred every year.


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