# SACD player...



## UnivQ (Jan 2, 2010)

Hello,

I will be upgrading my current audio setup within a few months and would like to add an SACD player. I have found a few players in my "range", but am interested to hear what experienced users have to say about players which they are familiar. 

To give a better idea, my "range" being up to $300 for an SACD player. I know it's not going to get me anything close to audiophile; I'm just trying to keep the entire system modest. My listening area (livingroom) is 18' 7" L x 11' 9" W x 8' H.

Current (stereo):
Receiver: Sony STR-D790 (it was given to me by relatives around 7 years ago)
Speakers: Sony SS-MB350H
TV: Samsung LN-S2651D (26" 720p LCD)
Player: Samsung BD-P1950

Upgrade:
Receiver: Denon AVR-1910 (would have chosen the AVR-1610, but it doesn't come with 5.1 analog input for SACD)
Speakers: Still researching, strongly leaning towards DefTech's ProCinema 600 set; I preferred them much more than the Mirage Nanosats. I've read quite a bit about SVS's SBS-01 5.1 package, but I cannot demo them, they're larger, and I can get a discount on the DefTech's.
TV: Same for now; focusing on audio.
Player: Same; love the streaming Netflix and Pandora.


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## sonimax (Jan 5, 2010)

Why not going with the PS3? That way, you'll get both a SA-CD player AND a BD player. Not bad for the price. But you'll need a receiver that can at least accommodate PCM signals via HDMI input.


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

sonimax, the current PS3s cannot play SACDs. Only the original 60GBs were able to play SACDs, maybe the 80GB's too. Even then, their SACD playback was only subpar anyway.


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## sonimax (Jan 5, 2010)

That's sad:crying:
I have a 80 Go and it's playing MCH SA-CDs. Maybe it's not the best SACD player around but the sound is much better than regular CDs.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
You could buy a used Denon DVD-2910 or you might be able to find a DVD-3910 for that price. Other choices include Sony's dedicated SACD Players and DVD/SACD Players. Many of these will be available in your price range.

Also, there is the recently discontinued OPPO DV-980h. An advantage to this is you get SACD and DVD-A through HDMI which will be great if/when you upgrade to the Denon 1910. Prices of all OPPO DVD Players have actually risen since they have been discontinued due to scarcity and also being able to play multiregion DVD's with NTSC/PAL conversion. 

And in full disclosure, today I listed my DV-980h on the Classifieds here. I have so many Players that I never have used my 980h (played 3 discs) and purchased it as a stopgap until the BDP-83 was available.
Cheers,
JJ


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## UnivQ (Jan 2, 2010)

I was under the impression (from what I've read) that a 5.1 SACD mix could not be passed via HDMI. Is this not correct?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Since HDMI 1.2, SACD can be passed via HDMI even as a pure DSD signal as OPPO does. It has only been since the release of HDMI 1.2 that is the case. My Onkyo, which is HDMI 1.3, has a DSD Direct Mode.
Cheers,
JJ


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## UnivQ (Jan 2, 2010)

Very cool. In that case, I don't need the 7.1 analong inputs on the AVR-1910 for SACD and can go with the AVR-1610 (don't need 7.1). I know that some prefer doing analog for SACD, but I haven't listened to a system with analog and then HDMI, and I like the simplicity of one cable.

Naturally for around $300, the performance of SACD players will be essentially the same. But is there anything specific to look for when trying to differentiate between SACD players?

Edit:

Can anyone verify that over HDMI if the SACD aduio is 5.1 and the video is in 480 that the audio will be mixed down to stereo? Link


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## The 7th Taylor (Sep 14, 2009)

Jon Liu said:


> sonimax, the current PS3s cannot play SACDs. Only the original 60GBs were able to play SACDs, maybe the 80GB's too. Even then, their SACD playback was only subpar anyway.


The 20GB, 60GB and the 2007 80GB model play SACDs. See the *PS3 SACD FAQ* (sorry, can't post URLs yet but just google it).

SACD playback is far from subpar, especially with the improvements introduced with later system software, such as the bitmapping options. Anyway, the OP is not going to get way better SACD performance at about $300.



UnivQ said:


> I was under the impression (from what I've read) that a 5.1 SACD mix could not be passed via HDMI. Is this not correct?


No, it can, and SACD-capabale PS3s do. They will not do it via optical output though (except with firmware v2.00). See the same FAQ.



Jungle Jack said:


> Since HDMI 1.2, SACD can be passed via HDMI even as a pure DSD signal as OPPO does. It has only been since the release of HDMI 1.2 that is the case. My Onkyo, which is HDMI 1.3, has a DSD Direct Mode.


Correct, but what the standard allows is not necessarily implemented everywhere. PS3 for instance converts all DSD to (high-resolution, multichannel) PCM (up to 176.4 kHz 24-bit 5.1 audio).



UnivQ said:


> Can anyone verify that over HDMI if the SACD aduio is 5.1 and the video is in 480 that the audio will be mixed down to stereo?


Aa far as I'm aware no downmixing is taking place. But if you want stereo, with virtually every SACD there's a separate stereo mix to be selected.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Welcome to HomeTheaterShack 7th Taylor. I was really bummed when Sony omitted SACD on the PS3 after the 80 gb model. Aside from lack of bitstreaming, the launch version 60 gb PS3 was definitely the most full featured. 

While I completely understand cutting costs when the 60 gb cost 840 Dollars wholesale, the loss of the Emotion Engine Chip (20 and 60 GB launch models only) really was disappointing. The Emotion Engine is the chip that powered the PS2 and guaranteed full backwards compatibility(BC) for PS1 and PS2 games.

While the 80 gb model offered limited BC for PS1 and PS2 games via software emulation and it was pretty spotty. All models since offer no backwards compatibility. Just sad when at launch, this was one of the main features of the PS3 and continued the tradition of the PS2 being BC with PS1 games. It was considered a family value.

Other features lost after the launch model include multiple flash card reader, reduction from 4 to 2 USB ports, and Memory Stick compatibility. Big reason why the 60 gb model sells at a premium over newer models. It seems since the PS3 Slim that prices on the 60 gb have come down. Still a very desirable model.

And indeed not all HDMI 1.2 AVR's process SACD. That is definitely why I said after HDMI 1.2, SACD can be sent via HDMI.
Cheers,
JJ


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## The 7th Taylor (Sep 14, 2009)

Jungle Jack said:


> And indeed not all HDMI 1.2 AVR's process SACD.


Thanks. Indeed, not all HDMI receivers will accept DSD input. What I meant to say is that not all HDMI-equipped SACD players (including notably PS3) will offer DSD output. Fortunately HDMI has the capability to let a source and destination device negotiate a format based on the capabilities of each.


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## UnivQ (Jan 2, 2010)

I know this has been discussed a million times, but I've never looked into these matters befoe. I've done some more reading and trying to go the straight DSD route will result in loosing BM, AutoEQ, AutoTiming (if applicable), Audessey, etc. Also, I haven't been able to find any receivers with DAC's that will take DSD via HDMI straight to analog out. 

Denon Link3rd supports multichannel PCM via HDMI not DSD (I have the link but can't post it, don't know how I was able to post a link in my earlier post) and the lowest model that supports Link3rd is out of my price range. 

I really like the Oppo DV-980H and will probably go with that. Even though the Oppo sends DSD via HDMI, is it possible to have it send multichannel PCM instead? 
[Edit] I was able to verify that the DV-980H can send multichannel PCM over HDMI [figured it would]. [/Edit]

In Home Theater Mag's 2010 Buyers Guide, they show the AVR-1610 as supporting multichannel PCM via HDMI, but it doesn't support Link3rd, so I'm not sure if the receiver can support this feature without Link3rd. Guess I'll just give Denon a call and see.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

UnivQ said:


> I know this has been discussed a million times, but I've never looked into these matters befoe. I've done some more reading and trying to go the straight DSD route will result in loosing BM, AutoEQ, AutoTiming (if applicable), Audessey, etc. Also, I haven't been able to find any receivers with DAC's that will take DSD via HDMI straight to analog out.
> 
> Denon Link3rd supports multichannel PCM via HDMI not DSD (I have the link but can't post it, don't know how I was able to post a link in my earlier post) and the lowest model that supports Link3rd is out of my price range.
> 
> ...


Hello,
The reason why you will not find processors that allow analog outputs of SACD is copyright control. SACD is one of the most locked down formats out there. It is a prime reason why Sony tried so hard to have it gain traction in the music industry. Unfortunately, SACD never gained widespread adoption and the major labels have since abandoned it.

There is still new releases available, but it is sadly a niche format with the majority of new releases being Classical and some Jazz. Certain rock SACD's that are now out of print can sell for over 100 Dollars. 

The Denon AVR-1610 does not support Denon Link as it is usually reserved for the upper level Denon Series.
Cheers,
JJ


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## UnivQ (Jan 2, 2010)

Thanks JJ. From what I can tell, Denon Link was intended to support SACD and DVD-A through a single cable solution without converting to PCM. If so, assuming there is no discernible difference in quality between DSD->DAC vs DSD->PCM->DAC (I know this is hotly debated), by HDMI supporting multichannel PCM this essentially nullifies Denon's "Link" technology. So the only benefit I can see for having Denon Link is for those that will not accept PCM conversion. Is this accurate?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
That is more or less accurate. Denon Link was available before HDMI 1.2 allowed for DSD/SACD to be sent unaltered to AVR/SSP's. At the time, this was huge as running 6 analog cables is not fun and the LFE Channel always had issues due to the fact that it is set -10db's. This offset needed to be addressed at the AVR end by boosting the Subwoofer Channel +10 db on the multichannel inputs level. With HDMI or Denon Link this is handled without having to deal with that as the AVR/SSP's handle it automatically.
Cheers,
JJ


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