# Help With Subwoofer Choice For Large Room



## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

Hello All-
I am currently looking/researching for a sub or subs which will be the final piece (at least for now  ) of my audio/video system in my greatroom. I've been reading and soaking up info here and decided to post to draw from what is obviously a great base of knowledge here. 

My room is *28'Lx20'Wx20'H* which is *560 sq feet *but more importantly *11,200 cu feet*. The floors are hardwood with an area rug which covers 2/3 of the floor area, some upholstered furniture as well as some fabric window treatments. There is an opening at the right rear corner of the long wall which opens to kitchen/breakfast nook, another one at the left rear corner of other long wall which is a hallway to front door, then another above that at 2nd floor level which is an open diagonal balcony serving the 2nd floor. 

I currently have a *Harmon/Kardon AVR325 receiver, Definitive Tech Mythos One towers, Mythos Three center, Mythos Gem surrounds, and another Gem for the back surround*.

We enjoy action/adventure type movies and musical tastes range from contemporary jazz to Natalie Merchant/ Sarah McLachlan to country to Nickelback/Creed/ Metallica depending on the mood and the day. We probably use the system about 75% TV and movie watching and 25% music. But with that being said I really want to start with music and get it right and I sort of feel that the HT will fall into place. I am hoping for tight, accurate, tuneful bass which is not boomy or sloppy. I don't mind being knocked off the couch by special effects, I just hope it doesn't have to be at the expense of the musical reproduction.

The following subwoofers have my interest as possibilities either alone or in some cases in tandem: (not a hard and fast list but rather a work in progress)

*ACI- Force XL, Titan XL, or Maestro XL*
*Def Tech- Supercube I or Reference* (local dealer where I purchased my speakers has these)
*SVS- PB12/+2* (Eric at SVS recommended this)
*M&K- VX-1250SFX THX* (currently $599 for refurb at the M&K website)
*Paradigm- Servo 15 v.2* ( have seen on Audiogon used for $800-$1200)
*James- EMB-1000, 1200, or 1500* ( Closest James dealer 2 Hour drive)
*Monitor Audio- RS-W12*
*HSU- VTF-3 MK 2* 

My budget is about $1300-$1600, but if, due to my large room, it will take more, then I'll just save a little longer. I would like to make the purchase in the next 3 months or so. I realize I do not have an "audiophile" system and due to the size of the room, I probably cannot afford to get reference level type bass. That being said, I just want to do the best I can do within my budget and get decent bass response for music and movies, and to feel some of the movie bass if possible. I am open to any and all comments on my situation and especially hope that owners of some of these models listed will chime in as well as someone with a large room like mine. I have undoubtedly left out some good subs to consider so please expand my list if you've got something for me. Should I be looking at only sealed subs for tightness/accuracy or would some of the better ported subs also have this quality? Thanks ahead of time to all, and if any additional info is needed just ask. I did post all my equipment on my profile but only listed here what I felt was relevant to sub choice.

Mark


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## khellandros66 (Jun 7, 2006)

If It were me, I would go with two SuperCube Reference or SVS PB12-Plus/2

~Bob


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## Phil M (Apr 19, 2006)

I dropped a room sketch to SVS and let them come up with a proposal/recommendation - it worked OK for me, and mention your dual needs.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I have dual Plus/2's in my 1800 cubic foot HT room... over kill yes, but awesome! You got a lot more cubic feeties so I'm thinkin' a pair, but that get's outside your budget. I don't know for certain, but I'd sure be suspect of only one of any sub in that big of a room... that's just me though. Of course you do get two subs in the Plus/2 and one might do the trick.


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## RSH (Jul 28, 2006)

I owe to yourself to listen to the James Loudspeker EMB subwoofers - the most musical, fast and accurate subs I have ever heard.


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> I have dual Plus/2's in my 1800 cubic foot HT room... over kill yes, but awesome! *You got a lot more cubic feeties so I'm thinkin' a pair,* but that get's outside your budget. I don't know for certain, but I'd sure be suspect of only one of any sub in that big of a room...


:yeahthat: 

If you don't want to do DIY or IB then I agree with Sonnie for your size room and movie playback desires. Get two dual driver ported subs. SVS gives a lot of bang for the buck.

Bob


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## khellandros66 (Jun 7, 2006)

If it falls in your budget two SVS PB12-Plus/2 is $2400+shipping and each are prolly 85-90% of the PB12-Ultra/2 performance.

~Bob


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Welcome to the Forum Mark!



> There is an opening at the right rear corner of the long wall which opens to kitchen/breakfast nook, another one at the left rear corner of other long wall which is a hallway to front door, then another above that at 2nd floor level which is an open diagonal balcony serving the 2nd floor.


Hmm – bad news. Basically it’s all space the sub has to fill with bass, so it all has to be counted. When the openings are small, like a doorway, it isn’t as bad, but that second floor thing sounds like a big hole in the side of the ship, as it were. Not good.



> We probably use the system about 75% TV and movie watching and 25% music.


Since you’re primarily interested in TV, that might be your salvation. Assuming we’re talking about regular programming and not 5.1 PPV fare, TV bass is much less demanding than DVD movie bass or even music bass. One of the better SVS subs should have no problem getting response down to 25 Hz, even in a space that big, and can probably make a good presentation even with DVDs.

What you’re probably going to be lacking is bass dynamics – i.e., impact – in movies: Scenes like the ring drop in the first chapter of the first Lord of the Rings movie, or the depth charges in U-571. The dynamics require lots of headroom, both from the driver and the amplifier. That’s a pretty tough order in a huge space. I’d be surprised if there is a single sub on the market up to the task, and certainly not in your price range. Indeed, it most likely will require at least a couple of highly capable subs a room this big, maybe even more. 

I think what you’ll find with most of the subs these days using BASH digital amps is that their output is limited to protect the driver. If the sub is marginal for the room, you can see the effect in a demanding DVD passage – i.e., one where it seems the bass could be stronger. You crank the sub up higher and play the scene again, and you notice you don’t get any more than you had before.

Since you’re primarily interested in TV, it probably isn’t worth the expense and the visual blight to achieve high-impact performance. The SVS guys have a good reputation for making recommendations in matching a sub to the room. If you find the one they recommend isn’t quite up your needs, you could always add a second one later.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

This sounds like a job for... _*Acoupower!*_

http://www.acoupower.com/


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

Thanks to all who have posted. I have missed a few days of following my thread due to my wife's mom being hospitalized. 

I had the opportunity to demo a James EMB-1200 in my home yesterday. I had contacted the closest James dealer (2.5 hours away) about a month ago with some questions, and once he found out where I live, informed me that he comes down to the beach not far from here some weekends and would be glad to come by the house and demo the sub for me. We hooked up the EMB-1200 to my H/K AVR325's sub out and set the channel adjust on the 325 to first +5 then later +7. Before he arrived I ran the receiver through the EZ set calibration which balances all speakers except the sub. We adjusted the gain during the session, ending up on about 3/4, and the phase sounded right on zero. He had no spl meter with him so it was just a very basic set up. I wanted to listen to music first so the night before I had burned a custom CD containing songs with either acoustic bass or clean electric bass. Artists consisted of Sade, Natalie Merchant, Norah Jones, Jack Johnson, Creed and 12 Stones. Movies chosen were Saving Private Ryan, Blackhawk Down, Master and Commander, And LOTR #1. We experimented with a few different positions on the sub and while it sounded good, I could tell we had not yet found the optimium location. He then called James Loudspeakers with questions about the placement in my room, and next thing you know, he is talking with Jeffrey James Coombs (founder of James Loudspeakers). Coombs asked him many questions about the room and system, and suggested placement options, one of which we had tried. When we tried the other, the bass was much fuller and seemed to encompass the whole room better. I was very impressed that an installer/dealer could call a company and get that kind of tech support/help from the man at the top. He told me that was typical of James since he had started carrying them. Once the sub was placed at the good spot, we listened to the songs and movie passages again. Music bass was deep, full, and not boomy, it would hit then be ready for the next note. The movie passages sounded awesome especially SPR and M&C, during the latter's cannon battle it sounded as if the cannons were in my living room. This is not the end of this process, only the beginning, as this was the first sub I have heard in my room. I believe if I were to choose a James sub I would opt for the larger EMB-1500 for my room to get more output and slightly deeper extension. That being said, the EMB-1200 is a fine unit with incredible build quality. Music sounded like I was hoping and movies were also very convincing. It did not pound the chest, I think I'd need more power or 2 subs to approach that kind of performance (or maybe one +2).


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## RSH (Jul 28, 2006)

Mark64,

Yes, The James Loudspeaker support is second to none. I always talk to Jay, and he is a really nice guy. I love their speakers. IMHO they make one of the best subwoofers for the money, and their in-walls are top notch - one of the best in the industry.

Regarding your room and subwoofer choice: if you mostly watch the movies, than the EMB 1500 will give you a lower and deeper output, but if you often listen to the music, a pair of the EMB 1200s would be a better solution due to a smaller and hence FASTER driver. Having two subwoofers also make it easier to get a flatter bass response, because you have a better option finding an optimal subwoofer placement.


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

*Wayne*- 
Thanks for your post and observations on my situation. I wanted to clear up an apparent misunderstanding when you read my initial post. I am not primarily interested in TV watching, in fact if that was the case I would probably not get a subwoofer. *This passage from my initial post sums it up:*

*"We probably use the system about 75% TV and movie watching and 25% music. But with that being said I really want to start with music and get it right and I sort of feel that the HT will fall into place. I am hoping for tight, accurate, tuneful bass which is not boomy or sloppy. I don't mind being knocked off the couch by special effects, I just hope it doesn't have to be at the expense of the musical reproduction."*

I was just being honest about how the system is used with the percentage reference, so I'm not looking to improve my wife's watching of Grey's Anatomy or Desperate Housewives  . I want to nail the music and hopefully get HT as close to right as possible without taking away from the music. My thoughts now are whether to go with a sealed sub for accuracy, or a ported sub (such as the +2, which apparently is not bad on music) . Thanks for taking the time to post, if you have any additional thoughts, please send them my way.

Mark


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

*Roman*- Thanks for your posts and help. I sent you a PM with some questions.

Mark


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## RSH (Jul 28, 2006)

Mark,

You are welcome - check your mail box for my response


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Mark64 said:


> *Wayne*-
> Thanks for your post and observations on my situation. I wanted to clear up an apparent misunderstanding when you read my initial post. I am not primarily interested in TV watching, in fact if that was the case I would probably not get a subwoofer. *This passage from my initial post sums it up:*
> 
> *"We probably use the system about 75% TV and movie watching and 25% music. *


Yeah, that blew right by me, didn’t it? Sorry about that. :innocent: Too bad, though – it’s only going to cost you more money! :laugh: 



> I want to nail the music and hopefully get HT as close to right as possible without taking away from the music.


 No problem there. Any good music sub sounds good with home theater – just add another one!  



> My thoughts now are whether to go with a sealed sub for accuracy, or a ported sub (such as the +2, which apparently is not bad on music)


 I’ve typically been a sealed kind of guy, but I’ve found recently that a good ported design can do a great job with music. For instance, once I tamed its extreme ultra-low frequency output, I found the SVS PB10-ISD had _amazing_ detail. Right now I’m evaluating a 12” pair of SVS subs, one ported, one sealed, and I honestly can’t tell a difference with the detail. Neither seem to be quite as good in that respect as the PB10 was, but I’ve moved since then, and our new place is more “live” since it has wood floors. So I’d be hesitant to write it off to the smaller driver being “faster.”

Do yourself a favor and pick up a copy of Basia’s _The Sweetest Illusion_ CD. I think it’s out of production, but you should have no problem finding it on ebay. On the first track “Drunk On Love,” the bass has a ”growl” or texture to it (that’s the best way I can describe it). It’s a great track to show if a sub is fast and detailed (I usually turn off the mains to hear the sub by itself). 

Even more of a challenge is another of her CDs, _London, Warsaw, New York._ The opening track “Crusin’ for Bruisin,” also has a “texture” in the bass, but it’s very subtle. If the sub you’re demoing can pick up on that, you have a winner! :T Again, play it with the main speakers off, to make sure the “texture” you’re hearing is not from them.

I’ve found that it’s important to make sure the sub’s response is flat below about 30 Hz to get the most out of a musical sub. If there are peaks below that point, the detail will be obscured. The flattened response will work fine for movies, too – those action flicks have such extreme levels of bass, they’ll generate the peaking below 30 Hz despite the flattened response. 

Regards,
Wayne


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## Ron Stimpson (Jun 26, 2006)

Mark64,

What Wayne, said. Though we rarely even use the word "fast", since in our view it's a bit of a misnomer. "Accurate" is what we tend to emphasize, since it's easily measured (there are many ways) and tends to take the more inclusive approach to quantifying subjective thoughts.

If all you have to rely on is subjective thoughts (as many brands do, fearing objective testing like a vampire shunning sunlight) then subwoofers and speakers become little different than wine, where you have only the opinions of others to fall back on.

Opinion is fine, opinion backed by hard evaluation and instrumented testing is much, much better. Personal bias is largely removed by a battery of revealing (if not exhaustive) test parameters. There certainly is at least some objective data on a couple of those subs in your list, though only stuff done by the same guy can be lined up against another review from him (unless you really know how the numbers were derived). This is the reason we seek out tough evaluators who will put the screws to our products and aren't afraid to point out what's right and what's less than perfect. No product is perfect.

Having said all that, please drop us a line if you have any questions about something like our Plus/2 subs and want our viewpoint. It's arguably the best value we offer in the over $1,000 price class. There are at least a couple of very good subs up there (based on our own study of the products or reliable test data from others about them).

Look at Wayne's own testing on the early PB10-ISD (replaced by the PB10-NSD) for how we stack up against some big names. Any review by Ed Mullen is going to be gold too. He doesn't do everything as we would, but there's no more thorough or accurate subwoofer reviewer in print or cyber today.

He's tested a couple SVS prouducts, and recently did this one of a Canton. Jump back to the Secrets page and read everything he's done there and you start to get an idea of who's doing what in subwoofer land, and who just talks a good line.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_3/canton-vento-as-850-sc-subwoofer-9-2006-part-1.html

It's always good to take in anyones personal "props" for a product, we certainly benefit from this ourselves, but if an OEM goes after this sort of tough objective exposure from a review that's easily duplicated and validated (as any science is)... or by the same token does NOT go after this sort of exposure... we think that says a good bit about an OEM's confidence in the product. Bloated, purely subjective puff pieces about subwoofers are a dime a dozen, and while not worthless, far more limited in their value. 

Again, stuff like Mullen's (put into context with careful reading of a given reviewers' other work) is simply gold by comparison. He's only done a portion of the reviews on this page: 

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/masterindex_subwoofers.html

Still, all the ones he has done are directly comparable to each other. If he's on the masthead, read it. Nothing gets by him. 

Good luck on your research, it's pretty clear what product we'd recommend if you end up giving SVS a try. 

Ron Stimpson
SVS
[email protected]


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## kramskoi (Jul 12, 2006)

Mark64 said:


> It did not pound the chest, I think I'd need more power or 2 subs to approach that kind of performance (or maybe one +2).


you see... it's starting already, the escalating bass fetish...lol

On a serious note, in a room your size, you'll most likely need "at least" 2 subs working in tandem, and forget 10" drivers...i can give you one good piece of advice and i'm sure Tom or Ron at SVS will echo my sentiments, "headroom is your friend" so get "more" than you think you need.:flex: I can't stress this enough... you want dynamics to stay sharp, distortion to stay low and drivers working well within their limits of operation...this will affect the soundstage and overall presentation...the Paradigm Servo15 and the ACI Maestro are fantastic units for sealed and the Ultra/2 is the cutting edge vented sub in SVS's stable...stupendously capable...VERY robust driver architecture on all these...don't get caught up in the woofer size/speed myth:rolleyesno: ...high-end drivers have the motor strength to meet the demands of their respective applications...:T In the end, demo as many of your selections as possible and A-B if the situation allows, your ears will make the final choice, there is no wrong or right answer, no magic bullet...it's all listening preference...good luck with your selection:T


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

Ron-
I appreciate your insight and knowledge on the issue of subwoofer selection. I believe this part has been more difficult than picking my receiver and speakers. I have noticed some of what you mentioned about reviews (the good and the not so good). I live in an area which does not have many good hi-fi or stereo shops from which to listen and judge, therefore, I read and devour everything I can about subwoofers, be it product reviews, set up and calibration, etc. I definitely see your point about how a review without quantitative measurement or analysis is not as valuable as one which does, and can tend to be very subjective and sometimes opinionated. I try to take all reviews with a grain of salt, but at the same time, I feel someone knowledgeable enough to be published probably has more experience than me. This is not to say my ears don't work as well as the reviewer's, and often for me a review is just a starting point. I have read many of the reviews by Ed Mullen and have been impressed with his thoroughness and attention to detail. I do have several questions for you which I will send in an e-mail.
Thank you for your help.

Mark


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## khellandros66 (Jun 7, 2006)

Mark after reading some recent posts it seems you want extremely clean and accurate bass. I will say the Triad InRoom Platinum, Paradigm Servo-15a, and SVS PB12-Ultra/2 will give it to you. 

~Bob


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

*Martin*-
You may be right about the escalating bass thing, my wife tells me you guys have created a monster  . But seriously, I'm beginning to consider what you bring up about 2 subs. While the James EMB-1200 I demo'd in home sounded very good, I could tell I needed either a second sub or a more powerful one to get the kind of response I have in mind. I also see your point about anything with a driver less than 12". These types of discoveries/decisions should help to streamline down to just a handful of subs to consider. You mention the SVS Ultra/2, but it is probably out of my budget at this time. One idea I have and others have suggested is to start with one sub once a choice is made then add a second if needed, thus breaking up the cost. The SVS PB12/+2 will no doubt be on my short list, and I believe 2 of those are slightly less than or the same as the Ultra equivalent model. You mention 2 others which also are impressive to me (Servo-15 & Maestro), although I wonder if the lack of a continously variable phase control on the Maestro would make difficult or prevent good blending with the mains. Like you mentioned, I do want to stay in the comfortable operating range of whatever I end up with. Thanks for your help.

Mark


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

khellandros66 wrote


> Mark after reading some recent posts it seems you want extremely clean and accurate bass. I will say the Triad InRoom Platinum, Paradigm Servo-15a, and SVS PB12-Ultra/2 will give it to you


*Bob*- I would say that sums it up. I have said earlier in this thread that even though we only listen to music 25% of the time, I want to start with music and knock it out of the park so to speak ,and hope HT falls into place where it should. But clean, accurate, and tight is what I'm hoping for, you nailed it. I don't see how those qualities would be bad for HT. I think that leaves me to choose from the better sealed subs and the SVS PB12/+2. I read up on the Triad Platinum today, specs look good but it appears to be as expensive as the SVS Ultra/2. Also, I read this review, which appears to have some good testing, and there is concern with how it handled some of the low/demanding passages.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/features/1004way/index3.html

Maybe give it a read and let me know how you interpret the findings. 

When I started this process, the Def Tech Supercube I and Reference were on the list. I had listened to these briefly back when I bought the Mythos set 18 months ago, so I don't remember exactly what they sounded like, I would need to listen again. It seems like those models are not liked/held in high regard by very many and definitely not on any of the forums ( I also read along on AVS, Ecoustics, and a few others occasionally). Obviously, I have not reached a decision yet, but I originally thought maybe 2 SC I's or 1 SC Ref would be worth considering. I'm now wondering are they just not all that. There are a few good reviews to be found, not many, and I also get the idea some people are turned off by the specs Def Tech publishes, the thinking presumably that the low end numbers are not accurate or realistic. It has been suggested to me here by a knowledgeable member that I need a big driver with big dynamics behind it, maybe a pair, to do a respectable job in my large space, which I fully understand. And then there is the sealed vs. ported issue. As long as I can get the tight, accurate, controlled bass like you mentioned, I will be happy. Oh well, the research and looking has always been half the fun for me. Thanks for your help.

Mark


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## khellandros66 (Jun 7, 2006)

I listened to the 15in model a while back and was told that there have been modifications, I remember and possibley still have that review in the rubble of magazines from years ago. Keep in mind that article is approaching 3 years old now.

Call Paul Scarpelli - Dir. of Sales & Marketing (435) 688-8883

He will give you the lowdown about that article. I have talked to him on AVS in the past and he is a very nice guy.

~Bob


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## Mark64 (Aug 23, 2006)

*Bob*- Thanks for the info, I'll give Paul a call this week. What is your take on the Def Tech Supercubes and what appears to be a bias against them by some?

Mark


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## Ed Mullen (Jul 28, 2006)

kramskoi said:


> ...i can give you one good piece of advice and i'm sure Tom or Ron at SVS will echo my sentiments, "headroom is your friend" so get "more" than you think you need.:flex: I can't stress this enough... you want dynamics to stay sharp, distortion to stay low and drivers working well within their limits of operation...this will affect the soundstage and overall presentation...the Paradigm Servo15 and the ACI Maestro are fantastic units for sealed and the Ultra/2 is the cutting edge vented sub in SVS's stable...stupendously capable...VERY robust driver architecture on all these...don't get caught up in the woofer size/speed myth:rolleyesno: ...high-end drivers have the motor strength to meet the demands of their respective applications...:T


Outstanding post. It's been said before: "headroom has a quality all its own". 

In an 11,000 ft3 room, it will be very easy to drive certain subwoofers into _output compression_, which will cause the deepest frequencies to lack slam and impact relative to the mid/upper bass regions. 

While any conventional subwoofer can eventually be driven into compression, sealed subwoofers suffer more from this phenomenon because the woofer is responsible for generating 100% of the output at all frequencies. And excursion requirements quadruple with each successively lower octave. So you can imagine at the very deepest frequencies, a single driver sealed subwoofer will really be struggling to fill a room that size without significant output compression at high playback volumes.

"Clean, accurate, and tight" all go out the window when the subwoofer is being driven into compression. The frequency response becomes non-linear, distortion skyrockets (often approaching 100%), and deep bass dynamics suffer.

Just to give you a frame of reference, if I was going to design an IB subwoofer for that size room, I would specify at least eight (8) 15" high excursion woofers. And remember, and IB subwoofer is just a large sealed subwoofer. Any DIY-er familiar with IB applications would support me in this recommendation, I'm sure.

Another frame of reference is that a single high performance 15" sealed subwoofer (say something like the Servo-15 V2) will offer approximately the same deep bass output capability as a single 12" high performance reflex (vented or PR) design - at least down to the tuning frequency of the reflex sub. With that said, the 15" sealed will typically have somewhat higher mid/upper bass output capability, but output in that region is rarely a limiting factor; the deep bass always compresses first.

Minimum commercial sub recommendations I could live with in that size room would be along the lines of:

1) one (1) Danley DTS-20
2) four (4) Servo-15 V2
3) four (4) Velo DD-18
4) two (2) Seaton Sound "Submersive" (a dual 15" sealed subwoofer)
5) two (2) AV123 BMF (a Seaton-designed single 15" bandpass with triple PRs)
6) two (2) SVS PB12-Plus/2 (a dual 12" vented reflex)
7) four (4) Triad Platinum InRoom PowerSub
8) four (4) Hsu VTF-3 MKII

As an aside, when evaluating any of Yates' data from the WDD shoot-out, keep in mind his output values are normalized to 1 meter, and for a 2 meter equivalent you need to subtract 6 dB. Then you will be able to compare his data to reviews from AVTalk, Ilkka Rissanen, and myself (who all test at 2 meters).


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## MrPorterhouse (Jul 29, 2006)

4 Servo 15's would be an experience, that's for sure.


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