# Room treatments for narrow room



## adauphin (Feb 26, 2012)

Our dedicated listening/viewing area is the basement of our rambler and the dimensions are 18x23. The walls are covered in 1/4 paneling and has full carpeting, ceilings are 8'. I initially had the system biased to the right to access the guest bedroom behind the system, now i'm going to add another door to the guest room so I can center the components.

Having added my Polk SDA's a center placement is a must but now i'm faced with reflections. We have a sliding glass door on the right and an entryway to the other 2 rooms on the left. I was going to turn the whole setup sideways but the slider and the entryway from the stairs in the rear of the room prohibits this, if it was a 10' wide room perhaps but it's too narrow for my tastes.

I have about 8 pieces of Roxul from another project so I hopefully have the absorbing material covered. I am currently researching what I need for a REW setup to use with my laptop which doesn't have a sound card. I have the analog Radio Shack meter but seems this isn't the best one to use mainly because I feel my problem areas are above the 3-4K range or right in that area.....the 500-2K also has problems if my ears serve me well.

The seating area at least for 2CH is roughly 14' back, I will try to get some pics today. I know there is a science to this and is an involved process...looking forward to it. 

All input appreciated.


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## adauphin (Feb 26, 2012)

Here is what it looked like before I changed the speakers and components, and locations, will get an updated pic hopefully today. At least there is a visual to what i'm working with. The door behind the system is the current access to the guest room but even with the system centered I can still access the door, I have given about 30" to allow myself to get behing all the components and if that gap is too wide I can change that.

The small couch has been turned and placed against the larger one.

We plan on changing the seating in the near future. :bigsmile:


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## adauphin (Feb 26, 2012)

Sorry, the image links show in preview but not when I post the message.

For the life of me I cannot locate the original so I did a print screen, not the sharpest pic but at least shows the room.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

So are those pictures how it's set up now?

Bryan


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## adauphin (Feb 26, 2012)

If you center the equipment on that wall, swap speakers for the SDA2B, and replace equipment rack but still leave rack on the far right then that's the setup. Everything is in line with the speakers in front about an inch.

There is also a curtain on the slider.


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## bawward (Feb 2, 2012)

Just some brain-storming, but have you considered placing the TV on the short-wall? Although this would create some heavy directional issues (being off axis of center, etc) it could create a more intimate space. So far as the glass door, opening and paneling, things are interesting in such a unique space. Being an architect, I have a heavy interest in building acoustics and one of the first things that come to mind with that space is the possibilities of standing waves, creep, flutter and obviously focusing.


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## bawward (Feb 2, 2012)

Here's some rough numbers I just looked up in my building mech and elec equipment book. your sound absorption in that room is rather erratic. I used the closest materials I could, but roughly this is what you're looking at so far as absorption coefficients : 

Items______________________________125hz____250hz____500hz____1000hz____2000hz____4000hz____NCR (average)

Carpet, heavy, on concrete ___________0.02______0.06_______0.14______0.37______0.60______0.65______0.29
Glass, ordinary_______________________0.35______0.25______0.18______0.12______0.07______0.04______0.15
Openings____________________________0.0_______0.0_______0.0______0.25-0.75___0.0_______0.0______0.0
1/2" Gypsum on 2x4 (16" O.C.)__________0.10______0.08______0.05______0.03______0.03______0.03______0.05
Slightly Vibrating surface_______________0.02______0.02______0.03______0.03______0.04______0.05______0.03
(e.g. thing wood paneling, 
hollow core door)


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## bawward (Feb 2, 2012)

I might consider (just for some quick position-test) moving things around a little bit, but to each his own. This deffinatly won't improve or even change much, but check this out. (5 minute paint edit!!!)


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## adauphin (Feb 26, 2012)

bawward said:


> Just some brain-storming, but have you considered placing the TV on the short-wall?


I have been aksed that by a few other people but I really cannot at this time. Perhaps with a wall-mount TV but I really need another 2' to be comfortable. That TV has a spectacular pic and I just cannot change it out, but have been toying with the idea of moving it upstairs but that's a long-shot at the present time.

I could build some panels but needless to say I would want them to "flow" and an interior decorator I am not. 

At least the first pics are now visible.


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## bawward (Feb 2, 2012)

How much room (ft) do you have between the closest edge of the sliding door and the rear wall (w/ the fireplace?)

I'm wondering because a floor-to-ceiling wall at the close edge of the sliding door could be nice... make it about 10' centered... kind of like the attached image. 

Also, you're right, for every foot of viewing space, you need 3' of distance from source (tv). 










If you did something like this, how much space would you have behind you? Basically you would be creating a partition/wall in the middle of the room, creating a more manageable and acoustic-friendly space... that's the idea anyway.


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## adauphin (Feb 26, 2012)

The other pic shows what's in the rear of the room, there is the access from the stairs to the right of the fireplace. What you are saying makes sense about being closer from an acoustical standpoint, but what about leaving the components against the wall and move the furniture closer?


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## bawward (Feb 2, 2012)

I suppose this is what I had in mind ... roughly. 










Acoustic treatment could go on the North and South sides with some (possibly) on either side of the fireplace, approx. the same height as your front floor speakers plus maybe 2' vertically. (sorry for another 5 min paint image!)


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## adauphin (Feb 26, 2012)

bawward said:


> I suppose this is what I had in mind ... roughly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah...you're slackin on the paint speed. :bigsmile:

That's exactly how it's setup right now, distance from the wall to the display is 30"...about another 10-12 for the speakers.

Here's the setup right now...I know, toys near the equip. :scratchhead:


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## bawward (Feb 2, 2012)

Well, then I suppose I didn't really help much, HAHA! Well, I might consider pulling it another... 5-6ft forward.. maybe even just 3' (or to the edge of the sliding door? Then possibly some sort of partition behind that? If it doesn't impede circulation to the sliding door. but to be honest... that probably is about all you can do now... the hardest part is that almost any configuration (except for short-side tv position) takes away from your fireplace, big time! It's a tricky mix of focal points. 

(good news! paint skills may be on the upswing, thanks to this thread!)


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## adauphin (Feb 26, 2012)

bawward said:


> Well, then I suppose I didn't really help much, HAHA!


Actually you were spot on, you don't want to see my paint skills. Nice work for only a couple min.

I could pull everything forward but the slider is the deal-breaker. Should I move it back closer to the wall or can I deal with the bass easier this way?

The mids/tweets cross around 2500 and I can say for certain something is happening at or very near to that point. Some tracks sound great but Peter Gabriel sound almost shreiking at times and that's not the case when I was demoing these speakers for sure.

I have placed some Roxul strips near the corners, next to the bookcase, behind the TV, trying to dampen the resonance around 800-3K and I want to say that's some of the more problematic areas along with whatever other furniture the bass is making them play right along.


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## bawward (Feb 2, 2012)

I should have included these numbers for the seating. 

Items_____________125hz____250hz____500hz____1000hz____2000hz____4000hz

Seating-occupied___.049______0.66_____0.80______0.96______0.93_______0.85 
Seating-unoccupied

The numbers should be roughly the same because your seating (couches) are upholstered. 

Personally, I think if you were to move it forward, then a bit of the 250-750hz might have to be toned down a bit, but it wouldn't be bad at all. 
So far as sub-bass, you're right, the couches (common sense) are absorbing to top 5 octaves well. Unless you want to install cavity absorbers (eeewww), the only way you can really address the sub-150hz range is with panel resonators, not so much porous absorbers. I think this might be a small issue, if any. How is it now? 
Regarding the shrieking, have you (I'm sure you have) tried EQing some of that back? (and yes, Peter Gabriel is a unique problem :surrender: ) How much adjustment do you have for your crossover point?

and although paint isn't my specialty, I do appreciate the compliments : )


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## adauphin (Feb 26, 2012)

Actually I haven't EQ'd anything yet, only tried moving the speakers slightly and moved some rockwool and some large foam sheets around. I did briefly place 2 large 3x5 sheets of foam on the left wall just above the couch up against the paneling and did notice a dip in the mids, quite possibly dealing with one reflection point.

Not sure if you are familiar with these speakers but they use a pair of dimensional drivers to cancel the crosstalk so I need at least 6' of distance from them. Unfortunately then need another foot on each side to breathe properly but i'm at the bare minimum as far as width goes and that's even pushing it.

I really do need to get a REW setup as well and that's another task but i'm hoping that most of the problems will be visible to the trained eye even before I start taking measurements.

Wanted to add I don't believe I have any room to adjust the crossover unless I change out a capacitor and that would surely have an ill-effect on the natural tone of these speakers.....i'm assuming anyway.

Also, if you could....I need a crash-course in the values of the data given for the individual frequencies, what they actually interpret. I'm a quick learner.


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## bawward (Feb 2, 2012)

Got it. Interesting speakers, I've heard/read about these type of sets but never have heard any in person. I know there are some definite benefits, but placement could be rather finicky. 

If placement/distance is important, I know it's normally never a good idea to recommend putting drivers into a corner, but have you tried placing the L/R into the far corners of the room? Maybe moving the equipment cabinet back as well, while keeping the screen/center speaker centered in the room as much as possible? 

At 18' wide parallel walls with a glass reflector on one of those side, your issues will come in integral multiples of a half-wavelength. http://users.nlamerica.com/kevin/images/Wavelength01.gif
Also, because there is an opening roughly opposite of the glass door, there may be some focusing (as you mentioned you had discovered) 

Yes, interesting about the reflection by the couch, possibly a second reflection (and almost certainly a later - 60ms or more - reflection). Crazy idea, but have you tried placing some foam over the sliding door, and then tried it on the wall opposite the door as well for a second test? 

Try keeping the placement of speakers the same and test sound deadening at these positions (red), see what happens (I'm curious myself).


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## monomer (Dec 3, 2006)

How do you intend to use that room? As a gathering place to watch a little TV? Family room and kiddy play area? For social gatherings and entertaining? As a dedicated home theater? For critical music listening?

If it were for HT and critical music listening only and it were my space, I believe I'd explore moving the equipment rack to behind the TV/stand back-to-back and then using an IR repeater for remote controls... then I'd experiment with moving those speakers further out and toeing to obtain the best imaging possible. I'd next tier the sofas (meaning both facing the TV and one behind the other with the rear one on a small riser... perhaps 12-16" high). I'd space them at approximately near the 40% and 60% points in the room's long dimension... (IOWs around the 9' and 14' locations into the room, which may necessitate moving the TV a good 3' or more from the wall... I would have to experiment a little. Then I'd go to a 9.1 system with a pair of side surround speakers for each of the rows of seating... and I'd get a sub for more "umph" or maybe even get two to smooth out the in-room bass response. I would put up heavy drapes to block the slider and the doorway opening across from it. I would also use massive absorption on the wall directly behind the TV leaving an opening to access that closet of course... then I'd put those kid's toys inside the closet. And I would be taking in-room REW measurements both before and after each change and use that to guide me. Oh, and I'd do something about lighting, those overhead lights and fans don't get.

Again, this is only what I would do if that were my space to do with as I pleased and my only intention was to turn it into a dedicated HT/music listening space.


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## bawward (Feb 2, 2012)

That's the trick, HT/Critical Listening implies "heavy" modification and/or room alteration... in some ways, heavy modification (risers, both couches facing TV, setting up/buying 9.1 setup, etc) is the easier way to address the situation, because everything is adjustable. In some ways (not all) setting a room like this up for casual but clean movies/etc is so tricky! The space has to be usable, promote circulation and face-to-face interactions... I don't know. 

I agree with everything you said though, the treatments/proceedures are right on for fine-tuning the space.


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## monomer (Dec 3, 2006)

bawward said:


> That's the trick, HT/Critical Listening implies "heavy" modification and/or room alteration...


The thing is he did open this thread by saying...


adauphin said:


> Our dedicated listening/viewing area is the basement of our rambler and the dimensions are 18x23...


 ...but I don't know if he was really that serious or not, that's why I prefaced my posting saying if it were for a dedicated "HT/critical listening room only". Also he didn't specify budget nor time frames either so I went with what I'd consider a modest investment over the course of the next year... 4 more surround speakers, one or two decent performing subs, some heavy drapes, lots of absorption, wooden riser with some carpet covering, an IR repeater and finally some dimmable wall mounted lighting. Depending upon the specifics of the choices made, I would say maybe $1500 - $2500 should about do it (of course it's always possible to spend even more... we all know how that goes). Absorption room treatments can be costly or not depending upon how you choose to go about it and your sense of asthetics... simply put, nicer stuff costs more. However I'm imagining he would do it in stages with the most expensive elements being the last to be purchased... which is going to be stepping up to a 9.1 set-up.


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## bawward (Feb 2, 2012)

Agreed. And you're very right about the possibility of always spending more money, hehe.

Honestly, before spending all the money for the system, etc, I might consider doing some room modifications first... like moving shifting/removing sliding door or closing up/cutting out new window openings, etc. Maybe even creating a small hallway on the TV-end of the room for exterior access, and moving the TV to be in the fireplace side of the wall... I don't know, I think if I was going for spending over $1000, I would consider modifying the space first, the the stuff.


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## adauphin (Feb 26, 2012)

monomer said:


> How do you intend to use that room? As a gathering place to watch a little TV? Family room and kiddy play area? For social gatherings and entertaining? As a dedicated home theater? For critical music listening?


Yes :T Pretty much all the above but fine tuned for critical listening.

I cannot toe the speakers given their nature. They need to be facing forward with no toe and the front of the speaker needs to be along the same plane.

I would like to start with a curtain and then building my own absorbtion panels. I have 11 pieces of Roxul Safe N sound that are 16x47x3, do they need to be 3" thick or can I widen the panel at half the thickness?

So for starters I would like to address the absorbtion panels and drapes then the lighting. Agreed, recessed lighting is a must.


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