# Most ideal 720P FP for my theater/living room? Details given.



## E-A-G-L-E-S (Sep 15, 2007)

I'll list some details to help the knowledgeable make some reccomendations.

1. Room recieves a little ambient sun light during the day...can be cut down almost completely if needed.
2. Weekdays - night viewing only.
3. Weekends - sports throughout day and night.
4. Must be mounted on coffee table or AV rack(vaulted ceilings that go way high)
5. SD picture is not of much concern at all....as I watch DVD's & HD programming 90%+ of the viewing time.
6. 1100 lumens...saw a FP with this and it is a little too dim....so 1200+ lumens
7. Budget -- $1600 for projector 
8. Seating -- ~12' from wall
9. Lens will be between 8' and 9' from screen depending on where i want it.

Questions:
1. How much difference does the type of viewing material make?(different quality screens as well as DIY ones)
2. How much difference does HDMI make for FP's over component?(same as flat panel tv's?)
3. I was told that the smaller the screen(image throw) the better all projectors look, so a projector that can do 100"+ would look better on a 92" or 84" screen....is this true?
4. Do I want/need/situation warrants a CRT or LCD or DLP?
5. How big do I want to go - IYO - with a 12' viewing distance whild saving as much PQ as possible?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

At that price and needing high Lumens, and I would suggest higher than 1200 if possible... I think there are only a few to choose from. I'll throw a couple of suggestions at you.

If you went LCD you could consider the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 800 at about a street price of $1500-1600. 1600 ANSI Lumens with a CR of 5000:1.

If you went DLP you could consider the Mitsubishi HD1000U at about $1000 street price. 1500 ANSI Lumens and CR of 2500:1.

Our DIY screen guys are the absolute best anywhere... they can put you on the money for a screen in ambient light.

Personally I have yet to notice a difference between HDMI and Component, but HDMI is easier to run long runs with one cable. I hate the connection myself though.

What I would do is buy the projector you want and mount it. Get your worst ambient light condition and project an image to the size that looks best to you. Then build or buy the screen to fit.

I believe the smaller the screen size, the better the image. With a 12' viewing distance on an LCD, I would say no more than a 92-96" screen or you may see some SDE. You might be okay with a larger size using the DLP, but in that room with the ambient light, I'd play it safe.

Hopefully some of our more knowledgeable guys can help you answer these better and help with the other questions as well as maybe have some other pj suggestions.


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## E-A-G-L-E-S (Sep 15, 2007)

Sonnie....thanks.
What do you think of the Mitsubishi HC1500U or HC3000U?
for screen, I'm thinking Gray Screen, which I copied down the paint brand and mix from this site from i believe username wbasslet? Would that be good for my situation? Was thinking 102", too big?


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## mechman (Feb 8, 2007)

Matt,

Both the HC3000 and the HC1500 are great projectors. When you're ready to talk screens you can start a thread over in the screen forum. Come over when you're ready. :T

mech


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## E-A-G-L-E-S (Sep 15, 2007)

Which would be better for a low light/non-no light room?

For screen I read through you and wbassett's thread on DIY's...was thinking gray screen? Should I still start a thread to find out what is the best for me? And does that depend solely on the projector choice?


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## mechman (Feb 8, 2007)

E-A-G-L-E-S said:


> Which would be better for a low light/non-no light room?


For this lighting situation you could go lighter - Sherwin Williams Soothing White. How soon before all this is going to come together? The only reason I ask is that I have a large gray painted screen 'shootout' that I'm working on now. I'm planning on having it done by the first week of October. I don't know what your schedule is like but if this is all farther out than that you may want to wait for it. :bigsmile:

mech


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

E-A-G-L-E-S said:


> Sonnie....thanks.
> What do you think of the Mitsubishi HC1500U or HC3000U?
> for screen, I'm thinking Gray Screen, which I copied down the paint brand and mix from this site from i believe username wbasslet? Would that be good for my situation? Was thinking 102", too big?


I probably should have suggested the 1500 over the 1000 since it does have another 100 lumens, otherwise it's pretty much the same machine. I would not recommend the 3000 since it only has 1000 lumens and you said what you said about the 1200 lumens unit.

102" might be stretching it in your room if you have ambient light, but again, don't build or buy your screen until you've settled on a size. It may be that with enough brightness (lumens) that the 102" screen will be okay. I'm just concerned about you having some ambient light in your room... the larger that screen gets, the more brightness it needs to keep that pop to the image.


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## mechman (Feb 8, 2007)

Sonnie means the 1500 has another 100 lumens than the 1000. :hide: According to PJ Central, those two are pretty much identical. The only thing the 3000 adds is the Brilliant Color and 4000:1 contrast ratio as opposed to 2500:1.

mech


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Yeah... that was one too many zeros there. :innocent:


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## E-A-G-L-E-S (Sep 15, 2007)

Just got back from Theater Xtreme and saw four projectors in action.
-Mitsu HC1500
-Mitsu HC3000
-Epson Home Cinema 400
-Sharp DT-500

They could not replicate my situation though as they no room near my size.(they had much smaller and much larger)

So I'm wondering which of these units I should go with?(they are all around $1000 except the Mitsu 3000 which is $1500) Is the 2500:1 as opposed to 4000:1 is a big difference?


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## mechman (Feb 8, 2007)

You will be happy with any of them. What did they recommend? 

mech


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## E-A-G-L-E-S (Sep 15, 2007)

The only one they had in stock.  He was most definitely 'pro' Mitsubishi though.
Was petrified that I was going to do a DIY 'gray screen'.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Of course he would be petrified since he won't make money selling you a screen. That's a normal reaction from a retailer.

Of those, I would go with the 1500 since it has the best brightness. These manufacturers are really exaggerating the contrast ratios nowadays. The 2500:1 is probably much closer to usable than the 4000:1.

Were you able to view any of them in ambient light similar to your worst lighting situation during the day?


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## E-A-G-L-E-S (Sep 15, 2007)

No....best situation during daytime to no-light only. The HC3000U did fade a little more than I'd prefer when there was light but in dark it looked good for a 720P.
So you think the 1500 out of those four, anyothers you would throw in the mix?

Also, I've decide to mount a brace on my rear wall to standard mount the PJ @13.5' instead of sitting on the coffee table @ 9'.(vaulted ceilings so that is not an option)


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## mechman (Feb 8, 2007)

Well I love to show what my HC3000 can do in the light! :bigsmile:










All the lights on in the room and still a very watchable picture. The 1500 would be just as good if not better. The only thing it lacks is the better contrast ratio and the Brilliant Color technology. 

mech


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I don't know of any others in your price range with the lumens you need other than the ones mentioned. I think the extra lumens in the 1500 is going to make the picture better than watchable in lighted situations. My Z4 is very watchable at 1100 lumens and even higher contrast ratio rating, but I would rather have better than watchable if I were going to be using it frequently for games and such during the day.

It might be good if they would let you take one home and test it prior to making a final decision. Then you would know what is acceptable to you.


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## mechman (Feb 8, 2007)

Sonnie offers some good advice and I'd like to add that when we're talking ANSI lumens it's no where near where the actual lumen output will be once your projector is video optimized. I will have the capability of measuring mine in a couple weeks (not the knowledge yet though! :bigsmile but if I were to guess... I'd say I'm throwing somewhere around 400 lumens at the screen.

mech


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

That's probably the same with contrast ratio as well... generally we don't get near anything close to the rated ratio.


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## E-A-G-L-E-S (Sep 15, 2007)

Thanks guys....just gotta decide which one of the group to go with.
Then I'll throw it at my sanded wall and see what size I want to go.
Then the gray screen most likely but i'll start a thread for that.


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## E-A-G-L-E-S (Sep 15, 2007)

Oh, and obviously hard to tell on the net, but yours is in more light and yet seems 'much' less faded?
Also, that 3000 is a nice picture and i don't want to get the 1500 or another unit and then say I should have gotten the 3000....man picking my DLP was much easier than this, lol.


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## <^..^>Smokey Joe (Jun 29, 2007)

I note you stated 8 or 9 foot from screen. You might be lucky to get the screen out past 78inchs at that range. 

Bare in mind viewing angle. SMPTE found that a 25~33deg viewing angle was best for movie theatres. But the sweet spot is 30degress.
This means the screen size is found by calculating the distance from your seating by a 30degree viewing arc.

You can be too big.
Anywhoo, If you are going to do alot of mix viewing, sports during the day and movies at night. 

Some things to consider. You could choose which is more important, sports or movies. Movies you could be more critical about perfection, sports one can be less so as the event itself is more important than seeing hairs within flaring nostrals, if you know what I mean.

Display size can increase lums by using a smaller area. ie have a larger screen for movies in dark conditions, decrease the display area for daytime sports viewing along with a daytime calibrated setting.

Keep things and ideas flexible.

CR ratios are numbers really met in reality. CR is an important value, but only if real.

<^..^>


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## E-A-G-L-E-S (Sep 15, 2007)

E-A-G-L-E-S said:


> Also, I've decide to mount a brace on my rear wall to standard mount the PJ @13.5' instead of sitting on the coffee table @ 9'.(vaulted ceilings so that is not an option)


So I think 95-102/3 is possible, no?

Your other points about changing screen size for daytime viewing and quality for night movie watching being more important....but if the projector is too dim it doesn't matter how good the PQ is as I'm afraid I'd have to go really small to defeat the sun.


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## <^..^>Smokey Joe (Jun 29, 2007)

In which case a LCD TV would be better for daytime environment.

Out of all sources of ambient light, daylight is the one that even kills a standard tv.
Im not trying to put you off getting a PJ, but simply weigh up which is more important. The daytime sports or nightime sports/movie viewing.
What is best for you.

That aside, what can one do to get a projector working in daylight.

You can do day/night settings with most projectors, but when they say day it is some ambient light. Most projectors, calibrated will result in 8 to 20 ft/l light output reflecting off the screen. This is not alot compared to daylight streaming in.

options, how to get the environment less hostile.

Presentation projectors have high lums but lower CR, but may suit these conditions. There colours may not be as accurate or be able to be tuned as true home theatre PJs.

Fit dark shades, curtains, use dark materials for sofas, carpets, dark wall colours. The aim to cut down secondary reflections of daylight reaching the screen area.

Although you are looking at a DIY screen, a high contrast (narrow viewing angle) screen may help. Grey screens help the perception of black(noteably with LCD types) absorbing excess low light, but they do impact punch throughout the entire range. Might be a case for trying different screen samples to see which suits.


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## <^..^>Smokey Joe (Jun 29, 2007)

E-A-G-L-E-S said:


> I'll list some details to help the knowledgeable make some reccomendations.
> 
> 1. Room recieves a little ambient sun light during the day...can be cut down almost completely if needed.
> 2. Weekdays - night viewing only.
> ...


Hi, I went back and reread your question list, some of which havent really been answered.

Q1. Screens and materials is more a reality of horses for courses. Best advice, start simply. DIY, look at the simple solutions first. Proper screens, get hold of some test patches, although there is alot of work being done in the screen area here and at AVS that can narrow the choice down.

Q2. The is all sorts of **** floating about about cables and quality.
But HDMI is the current future(Unless something better takes over).

The main reason you want to go HDMI has nothing to do with quality, but HCDP or copywrite protection. There is alot of issues with HDMI products and cables because of this though. It doesnt matter if the video signal is weak or strong, if the HCDP doesnt get to the display and talk with the source you will lose picture.
But you want HDMI regardless as the future holds component will be restricted to lower quality. Example would be, output of 1080p will be downgraded to 720p or 1080i. Maybe even 480p/576i really depends on the manufacture.

How to avoid cabling issues is a big ask. PCworld and HDTV have run some articles and HDMI.org has plenty of info.
In a nutshell, most short lengths of 1.5metres to 3metres can support 1080p bandwidth, most prices most brands.
Issues arrise though when reaching out to 10metres, a typical projection system. Here even factors like internal cable length between 2 wires being different will damage the signal. Bandwidth is another major issue, to run 1080p over 10metres requires 340mhz. Alot of the early cables, which are still in stock can only do 165mhz. The result will be that you would lose signal with these lower grade variants at 1080p. You could only pass 1080i or 720p max if you have trouble.
Component has all sorts of issues too btw, The cables need to be 75ohm, only one brand tested by PCworld resulted in a 1ohm variance, the rest varied wildly. Thus effecting picture quality.

That aside, there is attemps to regulate the HDMI system to resolve these issues. In time the consumer won't have to worry about it, but for now you need to check those cables. Unfortunately not many cable manufactures actually place capacity or grade on their cabling. (probably out of fear).
Look for,
Simplay tested.
340mhz rating.
Catagory 2 rated.(Not confirmed)

A number of manufactures have banded to gether to test and certify.
Regardless, when purcahsing, test and varify signal. If not up to it, return them.

Another thing to be careful of is what HDMI the device is, 1,1.1,1.2,1.3,1.3a 
and1.3b. There can be issues with old and new. 

Q3. Image size and quality. 
Firstly resolution is actually rated at 4th of things that are regarded as a quality image. Dynamic range and colour are rated above resolution.
Size itself coupled with resolution is as I mentioned before about field of view, the human factor, or our ability to resolve dots into pictures.
Simply the higher the resolution the greater the field of view(or closer,larger the screen) can be. But Dynamic range which is damaged severly by ambient light in a projection system rates higher in the order of quality picture.

THis is why I said a possible way out for daytime type viewing with some ambient light you could drop the size down to TV display sizes. The aim is to keep dynamic range and colour definition high.

Q4. CRT projectors are great from the purist point of view, but like CRT TVs are basically yesterdays stuff. LCD and DLP both have there pros and cons, plenty of info if you google about the tech on those. 
25% of the population have issues with DLP technology because of its design. Although there is improvements which in time will resolve this issue.
LCD design has issues in the ability to create deep black, or the perception of black. Overal this has much to do with the whole package,Screen, room and projector combination operating as one than the PJ on its own.

Q5, Sort of answered within size and quality.
SMPTE viewing setup aside, there is the factor of WOW, large screen, home theatre, open fire, warm fuzzy feeling that a projection system has over standard tv systems.

Hope that helps
Nigel


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