# Amazing Results - I wanted to share...but what next?!



## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Hey guys. I'm coming with a lot of upfront info and have seen great results so far. I'm curious what I need to be looking at or looking for now to continue taking things to the next level. 

So my wife and I recently moved into our new home in Texas. I have a dedicated movie room but it's builder quality. I couldn't go all out due to finances at this stage and time in my life. However, I'm very happy with the room design and layout. Soundproofing isn't dead silent but I can play music/movies just as loud as my previous room and the wife doesn't hear it. So success there. Here are some pictures of the room. It's an 14x18 with a sloped ceiling. I did a pret-treatment clap video and a post panel clap and the results are pretty amazing. I'll see about posting the video soon.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Initial tests with REW weren't bad. The waterfall was powerful in the bass region but has been somewhat tamed. See the attached photos.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Decided to go standard with DIY panels. I went with Roxul Safe n Sound. I made double panels and have them at first reflection points and the back wall. Also went with the same material for bass traps. I cut one panel into three squares and then cut the squares in half to make triangles for the corners.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Tests after the traps show a decent SPL and a big improvement in the waterfall!

I know...photos of a computer screen...I work in IT. Just being a little lazy to generate the post quicker. Don't judge me.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Here are the videos of the treatment results concerning reverb by simply clapping and recording it via an iPad. 

Pre Treatment = http://youtu.be/TrEmbkKQybc

Post Treatment = http://youtu.be/0GHU6mbF2BM


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

So finally I'm left with asking what to do next? Where do I need to be looking. I'm happy with the sound, but will always want a project. It's funny though because now on the pioneer sc75 when I run mcacc it has a very deep almost muddy result where as before it was very bright. I instead am using my manual configuration that I had before putting up panels. I'll mess around with it but thought it was odd for mcacc to bring back muddy results.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Wow, nice looking room for something that wasn’t even “all out.” :T

For your next project, I’d suggest a good subwoofer, maybe a DIY if you really want something hands-on. 35 Hz ain’t nothing to write home about...

Also, see that little camera icon at the top left of the REW graph labeled “Capture?” Click on it and you can save your graphs to a .jpg. No reason to do camera shots.	:T

Regards, 
Wayne


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

I was posting from the iPad and all the captures are on the Mac...laziness. 

Good point on the sub frequency. The deftech prosub800 specs state 20-150. Graph shows 35? Due to the volume control on the sub maybe? I'll play around with that. I probably won't be changing subs anytime soon with atmos ideas. I'm wired for four overheads just need the speakers and atmos receiver.


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## jamesfrazier (Jul 24, 2011)

Arvtechman said:


> I was posting from the iPad and all the captures are on the Mac...laziness. Good point on the sub frequency. The deftech prosub800 specs state 20-150. Graph shows 35? Due to the volume control on the sub maybe? I'll play around with that. I probably won't be changing subs anytime soon with atmos ideas. I'm wired for four overheads just need the speakers and atmos receiver.


I believe a better sub would add a better increase in performance then 4 atmos speakers. Especially for a dedicated theater room.. Your missing a lot of movie content with your current subs.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Any recommendations at a decent price? It would replace the PSW10 and work alongside the DTPS800. I'm looking now but a little concerned trusting specs... I read another article that tested the DTPS800 and the article stated that the sub simply doesn't hit below 35hz. Seems like false advertising or did I overlook something?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I think these guys got it right. Not sure where your budget is, but I'd invest in subs before a new avr/atmos. I would wait to see how the new sound format war shakes out. Not sure why it's spec'd at 20hz, but has that 35 ish cliff. Room looks great btw!
Edit: love the look of those mains too.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Appreciate the kind words fella's. Budget wise I'd say 800 or less. Unless pushing to 1k has big gains. Ideally I'd like to cover the 18-35k range. What brands are trusted that I should be looking at?


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Arvtechman said:


> Appreciate the kind words fella's. Budget wise I'd say 800 or less. Unless pushing to 1k has big gains. Ideally I'd like to cover the 18-35k range. What brands are trusted that I should be looking at?


HSU VTF-15H MK2 $1008 shipped. Or there is one PSA model thats sealed but also 15" thats like 800.

I have more space and a single HSU sub I hit down around 13hz


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Well, there are a few. The usual suspects are SVS, PSA, rythmik, HSU. (A few more). How big is your space? Is diy an option?


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Thanks Talley. Willis, the space is 14x18 with ceilings at 8ft front of the room and slope to 10ft near the projector.


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## chrisletts (Oct 16, 2014)

You lucky Americans !
There's not many houses in the U.K. that have space for a dedicated home cinema room.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

chrisletts said:


> You lucky Americans !
> There's not many houses in the U.K. that have space for a dedicated home cinema room.


You lucky UKs.... 

You make good music


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

So I decided to run a few tests with the volume turned up on the system as a whole as well as the subwoofers turned up louder. I would say total volume wise about 5db higher than what I listen to movies at but about where I listen to music when I want to feel and jam it. I personally like the subs to hit a little loud. Personal taste I guess... I know they say always go with your ears and what you like, but I'm curious what is considered optimal. Is there a graph an SPL graph or measurement to compare against?

I do have two concerns. First concern is what my waterfall graph looks like when I turn the volume up this loud along with running the subs louder. The waterfall is back to looking how it was prior to me treating the room...

2nd concern is our prior discussion about the sub not hitting below 35hz. From being in the room I agree that I don't feel it in my chest nor are my teeth rattling... but when I do a sweep from 10-35hz I do hear the sub... So it seems it is playing below 35hz. Is this from me turning up the sub maybe? What are you looking at in the graph specifically to determine this? I'd be curious to see an SPL graph from some of the subs mentioned in this thread to compare.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

the more you turn it up the more resonance you get. This is why I think most will post graph with the pink noise set to 85db.

sure you can hear the sub but over the other volume of the other frequencies it will be of little impact and essentially be inaudible.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Also I forgot to mention that I moved both subs closer to the walls... I'd say I'm about 3 inches from the front wall. ALSO** The sub is a DefTech ProSub1000 not the 800 :-/ Not sure why I thought it was the 800 but checked the sub itself and it's definitely the 1000.

Here are the specs on the sub:

Driver Complement
Subwoofer
Quantity	1 
Diameter	10" (25.40cm) 
Type	High definition 

Bass Radiator
Quantity	1 
Diameter	10" (25.40cm) 
Type	Low 
Electrical

Total Frequency Response
Subwoofer	18 Hz - 150 Hz 

Dimensions
Cabinet Dimensions
Height	14 7/16" (36.67cm) 
Width	12" (30.48cm) 
Depth	17 7/8" (45.40cm)


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

it's a 10" sub... just by adding two doesn't get you lower. it just adds a big more DB but depending on placement.

Stack the subs... put one on top the other and then run a test again and look at the difference... might get you some more DB down low.

Remember you have to factor in that most rate +/-3db. For me I look at what I pink noise at (typically 85db) and then look at what frequency I can hit at 83db and there ya go. Now the more volume you add everything changes but someone said not to run tests very loud as damage could occur to the tweeter or something... the REW author told me that.

From 100hz + you are at 80db to 85db which is +/- 2.5db. your subs handle down to about 24hz and to be quite honest thats a fair assessment of a 10" sub. Again adding a second doesn't let you get lower.

Tony on here told me that... so thats why I got the bigger HSU that goes to 16hz... so when I add a second I still have 16hz just more output.

No replacement for displacement. Your room is around 2200cu-ft and my room is 2950cu-ft and here is my response with a single HSU:


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

I would also like to add... would be nice to bring that peak from 45hz-65hz down some to be a bit flatter.


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## nwf477 (Feb 8, 2015)

Nice room its great!! Please do not take this wrong but yes your REW looks wonderful but there is no furniture other than electronic equipment. When I first started using REW I took everything out of my living room and boy did I have a nice graph. I thought I was set once I put my furniture back in and remeasured I was pretty disgusted. Yours might be different just thought I would give my experience.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

I'll work on smoothing the peak if possible. That is a nice looking graph you posted and I appreciate you posting that for me to compare with. Also a big thank you for taking the time to explain it all. Everything you've stated makes sense. I've used my SPL meter and have level set all speakers at 74db... I may reset to 85db... Regardless the point you're making to determine the sub hitting based on SPL makes sense. So at 74db I am registering around 18z... So that would be correct right?

Also, what smoothing do you have your waterfall set to?

**EDIT** I understand now. It's dependent on the SPL meter at reading time, not what all speakers are set to match at. Volume of the receiver changes that. The sub is hitting where you stated around 26db.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

nwf477 said:


> Nice room its great!! Please do not take this wrong but yes your REW looks wonderful but there is no furniture other than electronic equipment. When I first started using REW I took everything out of my living room and boy did I have a nice graph. I thought I was set once I put my furniture back in and remeasured I was pretty disgusted. Yours might be different just thought I would give my experience.


It takes a lot to offend me. ;-) I agree that furniture will have an impact. We just moved two weeks ago and movie room furniture compared to the rest of the home is low on the list. I'm guessing in the next 2-3 months we'll have couches. I'm planning a couch on the back row and love seat in the front. I'm going to avoid leather and also focus on something with a low back so my head doesn't rest on a couch backing that would take away from surround sound. Wife agree's on all these points so that's good. 

I'm curious to measure after the furniture which is also why I've measure and setup this way. Before panels, empty room, with panels still empty, furniture added, etc. It helps me learn by seeing impact/change along the way.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I'm kinda guessing here, but I think the peaks at 30 and 60ish are room modes. Placement is the first way to fix that. EQ is second. Where was your mic at exactly? If it was anywhere other than where the LP will be, I think the measurements will be useless. As talley said, even if you had ten of the same same sub, it would only make it louder not deeper. I still can't figure why the spec shows 18-150, and its on its face below 30. Could you do a sub only with an axis limit of 10-200hz? And (I think) db from 5-105.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Arvtechman said:


> Any [subwoofer] recommendations at a decent price? It would replace the PSW10 and work alongside the DTPS800.


You should ditch the DTPS800 along with the Polk. Running mismatched subs will only “dumb down” overall low freq response to that of the lesser sub. You can see it here, with graphs to prove it.




Arvtechman said:


> Appreciate the kind words fella's. Budget wise I'd say 800 or less. Unless pushing to 1k has big gains. Ideally I'd like to cover the 18-35k range. What brands are trusted that I should be looking at?


 I’m sure SVS has something in the $800 range that will hit 18 Hz.




Arvtechman said:


> So I decided to run a few tests with the volume turned up on the system as a whole as well as the subwoofers turned up louder. I would say total volume wise about 5db higher than what I listen to movies...
> 
> I do have two concerns. First concern is what my waterfall graph looks like when I turn the volume up this loud along with running the subs louder. The waterfall is back to looking how it was prior to me treating the room...


I’m sure it isn’t, it just looks that way when you ramp up the volume level. This post explains why.




> I personally like the subs to hit a little loud. Personal taste I guess... I know they say always go with your ears and what you like, but I'm curious what is considered optimal. Is there a graph an SPL graph or measurement to compare against?


Running the subs 10 dB hotter is a good starting place. :T

Regards,
Wayne


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

+ Wayne 
I'd sell both if I could. In that small of a space, 1 better sub would be better than 2 mediocre ones. Others might not totally agree, but it's a dedicated space so putting it where you need shouldn't be too difficult. Get a 2nd one later when you can. To Wayne's other point, SVS has the pb/pc 2000 for 799.99. The sb2k is 699.99, but if you're gonna run hot, and love slam, I'd go ported. Free shipping both ways, 5yr warranty. Too easy. 
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/cylinder


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

I love this stuff but it can get frustrating sometimes. Feels like you take steps forward then discover something and go backwards. Ha. All part of it I guess.

So I ended up doing the sub crawl to find a good sub placement. It's something I didn't want to do until furniture was in but this sub response issue got me curious. Upon doing that I found that the subs sound best when placed directly below the first reflection point panels. So for now that is where they are sitting. Moving the polk caused me to switch the phase back to 0 degrees instead of 180. I took some measurements in those positions. Concerning the mic it is currently ear level with the bean bag chairs the wife and I are occupying and the mic is centered between our two seats. We are about 2/3rds back from the front wall (based on golden rule positioning). See the pictures for current sub placements and mic setup.

So I've been playing around with settings on my pioneer SC75 because it seemed to me like that was impacting the subs. I've found something pretty interesting and I'd like some experts to chime in on why? For sake of ease we will call these three tests the following:
1) MCACC Setup Before Traps and Panels - I manually setup the EQ on this setting and it is on the bright side. It sounds good and I took tests, made adjustments, took tests, repeat. I tried to EQ the front left and right in order to get a straight line for the SPL graph. That was my goal.
2) MCACC Setup After Traps and Panels - This initially sound very dull compared to config 1. It confused me that MCACC set it as such. The difference is about a 6db volume change due to how bright I tuned setting 1. When adjusting the volume to compensate this difference things started to sound pretty good in setting 2. Also setting 1 is cutting the low end significantly...I'm not sure why to be honest. I can't control EQ below 125hz on the SC75...but take a look the graphs
3) After seeing the effects of what MCACC can do to the low end I ran a test with only the speaker level set and distance configured. All EQ options turned off on the amp to avoid any tampering of what my speakers and subs "should" be doing.

Attached are the results. I know my thoughts...what are yours? I didn't take any individual sub readings yet because of what I found the receiver doing to the speakers with MCACC.

**EDIT**
The pictures didn't keep the names. So here are the colors to settings:
Setup 1 - Red (MCACC Setup Before Traps and Panels)
Setup 2 - Orange (MCACC Setup After Traps and Panels)
Setup 3 - Teal (Only Level Settings and Distance Set - All Receiver Settings off (eq, sstandingwave, phase, reverb))


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Wayne! Excellent posts you linked there. I really liked the waterfall explanation about room energy and to look for the spacing in the horizontal lines because those are time slices and should be wider as energy gets absorbed. Excellent reads there. I will test both subs individually with MCACC turned off and see the results and then test together. I'm going to get the sub issue address before turning MCACC back on and allowing it to test/correct.

Will post sub results shortly.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey man, A+ for effort. Nice work. Yes, 2 steps forward,3 steps backs is about right. Lol
Obviously the teal graph is the best one, but even the red one shows 30 as the drop off so mcacc isn't responsible for that. It did pull a fast one on it though. Wayne can interpret graphs like nobody else so I'll see what he thinks. Have you measured with the Polk turned off?


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

I have tons of panels but need to build em.

What is the fabric you used?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Thanks for the kind words, Willis. :T



Arvtechman said:


> Wayne! Excellent posts you linked there. I really liked the waterfall explanation about room energy and to look for the spacing in the horizontal lines because those are time slices and should be wider as energy gets absorbed.


Glad you liked the posts. :T Too bad your red graph / waterfall rolled out the low end, makes it virtually impossible to compare “before and after” bass traps. Also should be mentioned, waterfalls are only useful up to about 3-400 Hz, so no need to take them all the way out to 10 or 20 kHz. Also you typically want to see them in a 300 ms window.

Don’t think this has been mentioned, but what is your measurement mic/calibration file? 

Regards,
Wayne


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Can you attach your REW files?


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Talley said:


> I have tons of panels but need to build em.
> 
> What is the fabric you used?


Cheap fabric from Wal-Mart. The red we picked out in the fabric section and the black is just a 200 thread count king bed sheet. The $14 sheet covered all four corner traps. The wife did a good job cutting and stapling to the frame. It's cheap and in low light settings you can't see any difference from felt. If the panels were going in a living room, or brighter, setting I would have went to hancocks fabric and purchased felt.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Thanks for the kind words, Willis. :T
> 
> Glad you liked the posts. :T Too bad your red graph / waterfall rolled out the low end, makes it virtually impossible to compare “before and after” bass traps. Also should be mentioned, waterfalls are only useful up to about 3-400 Hz, so no need to take them all the way out to 10 or 20 kHz. Also you typically want to see them in a 300 ms window.
> 
> ...


I'll adjust the graphs as such going forward. The setup I'm using is Behringer EMC8000 Mic (with calibration file) feeding a focusrite scarlet2i2 connected to a mac via usb. From the mac I'm using the headphone out to a y split rca cable connected to the receiver on the cd input set to stereo mode. Then the standard radioshack spl meter for level setting.

The red line in the above isn't before treatment. It's what the Pioneers MCACC calibration setup the room as before I added panels myself. I can save 6 settings for MCACC on the receiver. So what you're seeing in the red, orange, teal comparison is just what the receiver is doing to the sound in the room. I did link to an mdat below that has measurements before treatment, but it was with MCACC in setting1.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Blacklightning said:


> Can you attach your REW files?


I can attached two REW mdat's. The first one is after I adjusted and played with the EQ. It has all individual speakers and subs. However it's only with Setup1 on the receiver. I didn't run an measurement with MCACC off... I should have...

The second mdat is the most recent run with setup1, 2, and 3 for comparison with different receiver settings and treatment in the room.

Appears I can't post mdats...the attachment window comes back and says "your submission could not be processed because a security token was missing. contact administrator etc."

Instead here is dropbox:https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t4y9tcj08hbyu0e/AADrSQgm_GaUbNfuYhCxd43Ka?dl=0


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Man I love your room setup too... the walls/ceiling and such. Should of rejected room modes well.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Talley said:


> Man I love your room setup too... the walls/ceiling and such. Should of rejected room modes well.


Appreciate it sir. I'm very happy with the room. I don't refer to it as "all out" because I've seen some pretty intense builds that others have done where they have constructed the room from ground up, it has a theme, starlight ceiling, etc...haha. Way beyond what I can afford or do today. That said though, I'm very happy with the room.

So going forward it sounds like I need to ditch the Polk Sub and focus on placing the DefTech in the right spot in the room and getting it sounding best. This will be my setup until I'm able to upgrade the sub. It also appears I need to drop/reset any settings on the Pioneer Receiver and start from scratch with measurements. I can test and see what is causing the Pio to roll the low end...if I had to guess it's the standing wave room correction. I'll try and determine that as well.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Arvtechman said:


> So going forward it sounds like I need to ditch the Polk Sub and focus on placing the DefTech in the right spot in the room and getting it sounding best. This will be my setup until I'm able to upgrade the sub.


Forgot to mention this yesterday, but I notice that none of your pictures show the subs in the corners. That can often get better extension.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Been a few days...March Madness has taken over my time. I decided the sub crawl wasn't how I wanted to place the sub. It works, but REW is the truth. I removed the Polk and only have the DefTech. The DefTech doesn't have a phase control switch and EVERYWHERE in the room I tried the DefTech there was a drop between 45-55hz. I moved the sub along both side walls and noticed this drop as well as along the front wall. The ONLY place I can put the sub for a smooth response is the back right corner of the room. The sub sounds decent there and blends very well. REW shows a good response but the sub still drops off at 28hz. addle: I can send a SINE wave at 20hz and 25hz and the sub will produce sound/vibration but very little and very low. Would easily be overpowered during full frequency responses.

After placing the sub I decided my next objective was to correct MCACC. Here is what I did and I'm pretty happy with the results. I finally sat down and listened to some Floyd albums and have really enjoyed the system.

I decided I wanted to try different reverb measurement times in MCACC because you get different EQ results for each time range. MCACC has 6 positions you can save to memory. I used all 6. Then did an ears test without taking measurements to determine which I liked best. After that I went back and measured with REW. Here are my 6 presents and how I went about things.

M1: 10-30ms (all ch adj)
M2: 30-50ms (all ch adj)
M3: 50-70ms (all ch adj)
M4: Starting memory to copy for using different reverb times. This position had full auto ran against it with standing wave, full band phase, and reverb check. It did not have EQ pro ran so I could copy it as needed for my starting configuration.
M5: MCACC level and distance set only. No eq, standing wave, or full band phase (turned off).
M6: Distance from M5 but Level Set with SPL meter. I set SPL to 82 because that is what MCACC sets at. I wanted to compare any differences. There were a couple but half a db in difference. Still wanted to use this memory to compare and test. It's similar to M5 but I can eq and tweak myself if ever needed.

My ears like M3 the best for music. M2 was a close second but M3 has more low end and still smooth with clarity as well. That doesn't mean your room will sound best with 50-70ms set for reverb. You really have to go through the above and determine which Reverb time is best for your room. I recommend listening to them all and determining...

Here are pics of the room. I added some front wall panels. Not sure if I want to hang them yet... This also shows sub placement. I'm taking measurements of all Memory positions and will post those in the next 10 minutes.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Here are the graphs...


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Just purchased a couch and love seat combination. Looking to build a riser for the couch in the rear of the room. Based on the graphs is there any frequency range I could target in designing my riser? I've read some but very little concerning what material to stuff in the riser as well as drilling specific holes either in the front or sides of the riser as well as the internal chambers. Any advice about how I can get more use out of the platform is welcome. I know very little concerning this...


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Are you doing a riser for two rows? If a single row do not do a riser.


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## Arvtechman (Jul 9, 2013)

Correct. The couch will be against be back wall on a riser. The love seat in front of the couch (not on the riser).


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Have you thought about a sub under the riser... Maybe a diy?


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