# It's Been Said That "Speakers Are What Matters" And So...



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm simply getting ridiculously fed up with my Polk R20 bookshelves on the leaning, half-broken Sanus stands they're on in my 2-channel room -- it's time to upgrade. I'm getting really tired of attempting to make the stands remain upright without leaning to one side, pulling the carpet spikes out of the floor to move these things about into place...enough. 

First, the speakers must be floor standers (don't want to go down the bookshelf route again), and I'm looking for a pair that would mate well with my new(ish) Onkyo 8555 stereo receiver for music playback...now, before you all tell me "ANY $99 Best Buy speaker would go with that receiver!" please be aware that I'm not looking for "any Best Buy speaker" nor am I looking to get rid of the receiver. I recently bought this unit, and it's doing just fine for two channel -- I need to upgrade my speakers, though.

So, they must be floor standers, not too big in girth and width, but not something ridiculously cheap either "just because" they're being mated to a "mere" stereo receiver...I'd like to get something of quality -- not esoteric/audiophile level obviously as this setup is simply not set up for ultra-high-end -- but something that would do good for music mated to this Onkyo.

Any suggestions? Any specific brands that do better with music than HT? I am not loyal to Polk -- so any somewhat affordable recommendations are welcome. 

Note: I seem to be getting an overwhelming amount of votes on a different forum for the INFINITY PRIMUS 362's but no one is really telling me why they're saying these towers would be a good mate for my 8555; I am assuming they're more "musical" than some others at their price point...

Also, here's some others that have been suggested to me so far:

*Totem STTAF
EMP E5Ti / E55Ti
PSB Image T6
Polk R-Series Towers (old) / Monitor Towers / TSi Towers
Boston UR3 (they're on sale now at One Call for $615/pair, but only for THREE days)*

Anyone have any thoughts on these or others? What about Klipsch? Too bright-sounding? 

Thanks guys, as always! :T


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Hello, Osage. Around here i kinda doubt anyone would tell you to go to best buy nor put down your receiver. On that note what kind of coin are you willing to laydown and just of curioustity what is the wattage of your receiver?
On another note there are a ton of quality bookshelf speakers that can do an exellent job musically, especially when mated with a proper sub (even if not).
Let us know those couple of tid bits and i can start throwing some offerings at you. Take care, Bambino.:T


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Sorry missed your list. 
Out of those you mentiond i'd go for the PSB's:T


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Hello Bambino, and thank you for the prompt reply, my friend...



bambino said:


> Hello, Osage. Around here i kinda doubt anyone would tell you to go to best buy nor put down your receiver.


I understand; I only said that incase there was the temptation to recommend a real cheap speaker to mate with a "mere" receiver as I am running in my two channel room -- I think it's FAR from "cheap" or "bad" and feel it's a great piece of audio gear that sounds and looks more like a good integrated amp, but as I said, I only mentioned that to avoid anyone feeling like they needed to recommend "cheap" speakers to mate with this receiver...however, in retrospect, you are right. That wouldn't have been the kinds of replies I would get here. 



> On that note what kind of coin are you willing to laydown and just of curioustity what is the wattage of your receiver?


The wattage on the receiver is the easy answer -- that's 100 X 2, with a discrete output stage. As for the coin bracket -- I really don't know; I will kind of know what I can or can't do once I start seeing prices, ya know? I do know I can't do real super high-end designs...



> On another note there are a ton of quality bookshelf speakers that can do an exellent job musically, especially when mated with a proper sub (even if not).


I understand that, but as my original post stated, I simply don't want to go down the bookshelf road again due to a bad history between me and 'em. I just prefer floorstanders. :bigsmile:



> Let us know those couple of tid bits and i can start throwing some offerings at you. Take care, Bambino.:T


Looking forward to hearing them! :T


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

bambino said:


> Sorry missed your list.
> Out of those you mentiond i'd go for the PSB's:T


Thank you for the second reply here...

That list is by far not yet complete -- they were just ideas others threw at me from another site. Out of curiosity, what makes you steer towards the PSBs? Can you give me some insight as to your train of thought here? Are they are more "musical" speaker? Will they sound "better" and "richer" than a given Polk, Infinity, JBL, etc?


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

It might help if you have access to listen to various speakers- any chance of that? If you're not running a sub, I think you'll want a set that reaches pretty low. I've seen both the Infinity and PSB recommended previously.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

ironglen said:


> It might help if you have access to listen to various speakers- any chance of that? If you're not running a sub, I think you'll want a set that reaches pretty low. I've seen both the Infinity and PSB recommended previously.


Thanks for your input, 'glen!

The problem is, I don't have any store -- outside of a Best Buy and a Frys (and I will NOT buy any serious audio component from Best Buy/CC no matter WHAT my budget) -- that I can visit in order to demo any speakers; they just don't exist here (specialty shops/dealers). So, I would be willing to go on the advice from someone here, based on the specific criteria I provide. 

As for Infinity and PSB, can you give me some more insight as to why or what they were recommended for here? Would these brands be as good as, say, any given Polk, JBL, Boston, etc? 

There are seemingly infinite amounts of choices in the separate loudspeaker realm, it's quite overwhelming -- the selections, surprisingly, get even larger when you enter the price-no-object esoteric realm with the likes of Loimanchay and a gaggle of other $300K/pair brands...:coocoo:  :spend: :spend: :spend:


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2010)

You said nothing bulky, so how about some monkey coffins. http://www.amazon.com/BIC-RTR-EV15-...r_1_33?s=STORE&ie=UTF8&qid=1281677939&sr=1-33

Muhahaha

All joking aside, I've had Polk and Infinity in the past and they work, but IMO, none of them sound really good. Good enough for most people. Going by reviews alone, I would personally try BIC America for floor standing, large speakers.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

I'd also listen to the Magnepan MG12 for around that price. Likely to sound better than all those previously mentioned.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Are you against buying pre-owned? I bought a pair of used B+W's and got a much higher end speaker for the money. Check out www.audiogon.com for some really good deals.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

tcarcio said:


> Are you against buying pre-owned? I bought a pair of used B+W's and got a much higher end speaker for the money. Check out www.audiogon.com for some really good deals.


This is the way to go IMO. Look for a pair of B&W's 800/700 series. Why settle for some cheap Tower when you can get something with excellent craftsmanship and quality. 

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1285269270&/B-W-804-Matrix-Black-Ash


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Generic said:


> You said nothing bulky, so how about some monkey coffins. http://www.amazon.com/BIC-RTR-EV15-...r_1_33?s=STORE&ie=UTF8&qid=1281677939&sr=1-33


:scratch: :scratch: :dontknow: :huh:



> All joking aside, I've had Polk and Infinity in the past and they work, but IMO, none of them sound really good. Good enough for most people. Going by reviews alone, I would personally try BIC America for floor standing, large speakers.


I never even heard of this brand, but I'll add it to my list -- thanks. A bit disheartening on your feelings regarding Polk and Infinity though...I'm feeling like I need to regret my recent purchase of a pair of RTi12's for my main HT channels...:crying: :crying: :spend: :hissyfit:


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

jackfish said:


> I'd also listen to the Magnepan MG12 for around that price. Likely to sound better than all those previously mentioned.


Thanks Jack; another brand I don't have much experience with, but I'll add it to the list. :T


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

tcarcio said:


> Are you against buying pre-owned? I bought a pair of used B+W's and got a much higher end speaker for the money. Check out www.audiogon.com for some really good deals.


Yes; similar to the way I feel about the actual electronic components, I would rather buy new. 

How much are B&Ws new? Are they a good speaker for music?


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Hello Osage,

I guess you know what I'll vote for...........PSB but I also like Monitor Audio starting with their RS6's.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Well price varies with model but they are very well regarded in the world of sound and I alway's wanted to own some but could only afford it going the pre-owned route. For what I would have got for the money buying new I got three times the quality going pre-owned. Check out their site.http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...t-n7Bw&usg=AFQjCNEKQFP0RTLOCdEbHFFCD72dZY3j9A


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2010)

Osage_Winter said:


> :scratch: :scratch: :dontknow: :huh:
> 
> 
> 
> I never even heard of this brand, but I'll add it to my list -- thanks. A bit disheartening on your feelings regarding Polk and Infinity though...I'm feeling like I need to regret my recent purchase of a pair of RTi12's for my main HT channels...:crying: :crying: :spend: :hissyfit:


I never heard of it either, but they make polk and klipsch knock offs, and then those ones I linked are "like they used to make them", but brand new. Some of the reviews I've read actually suggest they are better then the brand name... Who knows.

If you want to jump up in quality without going used, Paradigm studio series might just fit. They have a higher quality then Polk, Infinity, but I think they are still well under a grand. Or at least they used to be.

For HT, I myself would buy cheaper speakers. I don't sit and critique audio while watching a movie. As long as it sounds clear enough and full range, I don't care. I have however, gotten pretty picky about my stereo tunes and music playback, so the polk and infinity don't suite me for that anymore. So my comments probably sounded more bashing then they should. Their speakers don't suck, they just can't reach the level of a good DIY kit or higher end speaker.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Ares said:


> Hello Osage,
> 
> I guess you know what I'll vote for...........PSB but I also like Monitor Audio starting with their RS6's.


Ohh! I didn't even think of Monitor audio!:whistling:. I give them and PSB or even Paradigms my vote for ya but being you have no specialty shops and Paradigms only go through dealers may put you out of luck.:hissyfit:


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

If I were to do it again, I'd seriously consider buying used. Upgraditis creates excellent opportunities to purchase high quality at a fraction of the price. If you're not in a hurry, you can keep an eye out for something in your area, so you don't pay/worry for shipping. The bonus is you can put more money into the speakers rather than on sales tax too. For speakers, I would tend toward a late-model though.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Used speakers are a great way to go. There are many brands that are from the mid 80s and up that still sound fantastic if they were treated well. B&W are a great choice and are fantastic for music. Monitor Audio are also a good choice. If you can find some Mission speakers from the 76x series they are also a very good choice.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

lsiberian said:


> This is the way to go IMO. Look for a pair of B&W's 800/700 series. Why settle for some cheap Tower when you can get something with excellent craftsmanship and quality.
> 
> http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1285269270&/B-W-804-Matrix-Black-Ash


Those B&W's are very old indeed and personally would pass on that price, or at least try and get lower price for them.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

recruit said:


> Those B&W's are very old indeed and personally would pass on that price, or at least try and get lower price for them.


Of course you should always try to get a lower price unless you have a gravy train of money. The old B&Ws are fantastic speakers if you can find a pair in good condition. On the Infinities. Many people really like them, some prefer a different tweeter sound(which is their weakness IMO). So if you have a place with infinities around like fry's go see if you like the tweeter sound. If you are cool with it then get them. If you aren't get something.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies, fellas...at this point, I have managed to fix a bit of the issues I was having with the stands; I managed to even out the weight distribution of the R20's on the stands' plates, thus eliminating some of the horrendous lean they had -- it's far from perfect, but about the best I am going to do with these horrendously designed stands. For the time being, I suppose I will keep the R20's even though they're not a top-end model until I can scrape up some dough for new floorstanders.

And -- I appreciate the suggestions, but I just don't want to buy used speakers, especially from a different era altogether. Thanks though. :T


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

I use sanus 24" basic foundation stands and they work like a charm for me. If you are on carpet they have spikes I use that work well. And little rubber stoppers for putting the speaker on the stand


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## Spuddy (Jan 2, 2010)

Osage_Winter said:


> Thanks for all the replies, fellas...at this point, I have managed to fix a bit of the issues I was having with the stands; I managed to even out the weight distribution of the R20's on the stands' plates, thus eliminating some of the horrendous lean they had -- it's far from perfect, but about the best I am going to do with these horrendously designed stands. For the time being, I suppose I will keep the R20's even though they're not a top-end model until I can scrape up some dough for new floorstanders.
> 
> And -- I appreciate the suggestions, but I just don't want to buy used speakers, especially from a different era altogether. Thanks though. :T


You seem pretty stoic with your wishes, so I won't push the matter because it is _your_ opinion that counts here; As an honest question though, have you ever had a serious listening session with quality older-generation speakers? Several months ago I spent a small fortune on a huge Klipsch/Velodyne theater that was far and away the best private setup I had ever heard, and I regarded the popularity of 70s stuff as little more than nostalgia from old farts. Then a month ago I got some 30+ year old Marantz 3-ways for $100 completely on a whim, and if you've seen my thread about them here (the "WOW" one  ) you'll know that they are in a league of their own compared to literally anything I've ever heard. In the 70s hi-fi world no one cared about home theater, so ALL attention and costs went to perfecting music quality, and it shows!

Regardless of what you choose, which is again, _your_ choice alone, I still recommend finding someone on Google Maps or something who has a vintage stereo setup and has no problem showing it off (which is likely, most of us love the idea of sharing our pride and joy!) just to get an honest listening session in. Obviously your mind is made up for what you want, but if it's your first time with the classics I can guarantee that you will leave with a huge appreciation for what was possible in hi-fi's musical golden age :T Sorry for continuing what must be a bit annoying for you with the "not-new stuff" biases seen here, but your last comment seemed a bit condemning of vintage speakers, and I had to say something to vindicate what I feel is the pinnacle of (moderately affordable) musical quality


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Osage_Winter said:


> And -- I appreciate the suggestions, but I just don't want to buy used speakers, especially from a different era altogether. Thanks though. :T


Why not? speaker design and quality has not changed much if any from the 1980s on up and some speakers made back then will blow away allot of what is available today unless you spend thousands.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Why not? speaker design and quality has not changed much if any from the 1980s on up and some speakers made back then will blow away allot of what is available today unless you spend thousands.


Well driver tech has improved a lot, but cabinet quality hasn't. Those B&W speakers would probably eat the Polks for lunch.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

lsiberian said:


> Well driver tech has improved a lot


Thet depends on the brand of speakers. Cheep speakers sure but B&W, Mission, B&O and companies like Tannoy Just to name a few have never used cheap drivers that would still not sound as good as they did new.


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

Well, I'll throw in my two cents. You didn't really give a budget, and everyone has their own opinions about diminishing returns, so... Here are a few I'd suggest you look into for a two channel rig;

Revel Performa F32
RBH Sound Signature Series 1044-SE
Monitor Audio Gold S60
PSB Speakers Imagine T Tower

Should all fit your needs, full, rich sound, bass extension down to about 30Hz, excellent build quality and reasonably thin.


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> Thet depends on the brand of speakers. Cheep speakers sure but B&W, Mission, B&O and companies like Tannoy Just to name a few have never used cheap drivers that would still not sound as good as they did new.


Not really IMO. Top of the line drivers today are much better than the top of the line drivers from 10 or 20 years ago.So are the cheap drivers. The advances in computer modeling, measurement, FEA, materials, motor topologies,etc.. Are not trivial. Nothing wrong with used or vintage speakers though. A $3000 pair of speakers from yesteryear for $700 is likely still a much better performer than a brand new $700 speaker from now.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

These

Yeah, unfortunately since they're trying to phase out that series, you're gunna have to take on an extra pair of bookshelves, a center channel, and a subwoofer if you don't wanna pay $946 for just the two towers...


=( tough luck.


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

Osage_Winter said:


> Boston UR3 (they're on sale now at One Call for $615/pair, but only for THREE days)[/I][/B]


 Given your apparent budget and desire for floor-standers: I'd hunt down a used pair of Paradigm Studio 60v3 or v4's... but I'm biased by what I have experience with.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

JerryLove said:


> Given your apparent budget and desire for floor-standers: I'd hunt down a used pair of Paradigm Studio 60v3 or v4's... but I'm biased by what I have experience with.


Hey, Jerry!

Good to see you on another site aside from Audioholics...:T

While I don't have an unlimited budget, I'd like to, if I could, stay away from used; right now, I'm still using the R20s, but their stands are beginning to really tick me off, so I'd like to, at some point, replace them with floorstanders. I'd like something approaching audiophile quality -- but the ultra-affordable end of audiophile, without going second hand, if that helps...

I know the situation I paint appears impossible to say the least, but I'd still like to move beyond the entry-level Polk/Infinity stuff _if I could_...

I need a musical speaker here that would mate well with my Onkyo 8555 (at 100 watts a channel), as this pair would be strictly for my 2-channel system.


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

Actually, the Infinity Primus 362's at $200-$400 per pair are very nice when paired with a sub. My best speakers are a custom-modified pair of 360's.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

JerryLove said:


> Actually, the Infinity Primus 362's at $200-$400 per pair are very nice when paired with a sub.


You mean the floorstanding P362s? Do they really need a sub? 



> My best speakers are a custom-modified pair of 360's.


Are you serious?


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Osage_Winter said:


> You mean the floorstanding P362s? Do they really need a sub?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you serious?


Yes he is. They are a custom pair built by Wmax using ideal cabinets, and fully active crossovers.

and yes they need a sub. There aren't many speakers that don't.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

lsiberian said:


> Yes he is. They are a custom pair built by Wmax using ideal cabinets, and fully active crossovers.


I never understood why someone would buy speakers just to mod them out or completely change their internal structures and working algorithms -- I mean, why not just get "better" speakers to begin with? 



> and yes they need a sub. There aren't many speakers that don't.


Well, I don't quite agree with this 100 percent -- especially if we're talking music. A good, solid pair of floorstanders with decently sized drivers don't really _necessarily_ need a subwoofer for accompanyment IMO. Home theater is another thing -- for the LFE channel and such -- but in two channel, I don't see the statement of "there aren't many speakers that don't [need a sub]" as truly being accurate.

Still, to get back on topic a bit, I'm surprised that the Infinity Primus towers would need a sub to sound decent. That concerns me if it is indeed the case...


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

GranteedEV said:


> These
> 
> Yeah, unfortunately since they're trying to phase out that series, you're gunna have to take on an extra pair of bookshelves, a center channel, and a subwoofer if you don't wanna pay $946 for just the two towers...
> 
> ...


With regard to this link, EV, I think those towers would be way too big for my 2-channel room anyway...

But thanks. :T


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Osage_Winter said:


> I never understood why someone would buy speakers just to mod them out or completely change their internal structures and working algorithms -- I mean, why not just get "better" speakers to begin with?


People will do the upgrades for the fun of it and also the upgrades bring a better sound to a solid design to begin with, like most things upgrades and modifications can be made to almost any AV or Hi Fi equipment.



Osage_Winter said:


> Well, I don't quite agree with this 100 percent -- especially if we're talking music. A good, solid pair of floorstanders with decently sized drivers don't really _necessarily_ need a subwoofer for accompanyment IMO. Home theater is another thing -- for the LFE channel and such -- but in two channel, I don't see the statement of "there aren't many speakers that don't [need a sub]" as truly being accurate.


I do agree with this as for pure Hi Fi enthusiasts using a sub woofer for stereo reproduction is like blasphemy :yikes:

Although I will be getting a Martin Logan sub and will also connect Hi Level connections to see how well a sub works with my ProAc's for Hi Fi use.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Osage_Winter said:


> I never understood why someone would buy speakers just to mod them out or completely change their internal structures and working algorithms -- I mean, why not just get "better" speakers to begin with?


Just like everything else in life we strive to improve upon it's design whether it's speakers, subs, cars or gaming consoles.




Osage_Winter said:


> Well, I don't quite agree with this 100 percent -- especially if we're talking music. A good, solid pair of floorstanders with decently sized drivers don't really _necessarily_ need a subwoofer for accompanyment IMO. Home theater is another thing -- for the LFE channel and such -- but in two channel, I don't see the statement of "there aren't many speakers that don't [need a sub]" as truly being accurate.


While most speakers can handle most music without a sub there are certain genres that will kill even the best of speakers. I like all types of music well all except Country and Banda (think of it like Spanish Polka).

Now I can listen to pretty much anything with the sub turned off til I start listening to Hip-Hop, Techno, Trance, and House these types of music need the sub because most of their song have heavy bass that most speakers can't handle. The point to all this is this if you listen to music that's not really bass heavy then you may not need or want a sub but if you do I would suggest you consider getting one.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I must be getting old Tony as my days of listening to trance and rave type music are over :nerd:


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

John I see you prefer Lady Gaga next time you might want to make sure that there are no video cameras around so you can play the "I must be getting old" card.:bigsmile:


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

:dumbcrazy: :rofl:


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Osage_Winter said:


> I never understood why someone would buy speakers just to mod them out or completely change their internal structures and working algorithms -- I mean, why not just get "better" speakers to begin with?
> 
> Well, I don't quite agree with this 100 percent -- especially if we're talking music. A good, solid pair of floorstanders with decently sized drivers don't really _necessarily_ need a subwoofer for accompanyment IMO. Home theater is another thing -- for the LFE channel and such -- but in two channel, I don't see the statement of "there aren't many speakers that don't [need a sub]" as truly being accurate.
> 
> Still, to get back on topic a bit, I'm surprised that the Infinity Primus towers would need a sub to sound decent. That concerns me if it is indeed the case...


Because the Infinity drivers are among the best in the world and it's much easier to mod an existing cabinet than to create an entirely new one. 

Since base is non-direction below 80hz according to perceptual research at Harman I see no reason to not incorporate a subwoofer into any system. I'd say our goal is to reproduce frequencies down to 20hz as accurately as possible, but any thing below 80hz would certainly benefit from the placement flexibility of a good sub. Some folks desire simplicity and that's a different goal altogether.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

recruit said:


> People will do the upgrades for the fun of it and also the upgrades bring a better sound to a solid design to begin with, like most things upgrades and modifications can be made to almost any AV or Hi Fi equipment.


Okay; I don't personally see it, but that's just me...



> I do agree with this as for pure Hi Fi enthusiasts using a sub woofer for stereo reproduction is like blasphemy :yikes:
> 
> Although I will be getting a Martin Logan sub and will also connect Hi Level connections to see how well a sub works with my ProAc's for Hi Fi use.


Do you mean you agree that a sub doesn't necessarily need to accompany a full range speaker in a two channel setup?


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Ares said:


> John I see you prefer Lady Gaga next time you might want to make sure that there are no video cameras around so you can play the "I must be getting old" card.:bigsmile:
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQtq4Z4t1yQ&feature=related


LOL -- I have seen this video before. It's absolutely priceless.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Ares said:


> Just like everything else in life we strive to improve upon it's design whether it's speakers, subs, cars or gaming consoles.


Well, not _all_ of us; in my case, I would be interested in buying the finest already-packaged speakers (or whatever they are) that I could afford from the jump. 



> While most speakers can handle most music without a sub there are certain genres that will kill even the best of speakers. I like all types of music well all except Country and Banda (think of it like Spanish Polka).
> 
> Now I can listen to pretty much anything with the sub turned off til I start listening to Hip-Hop, Techno, Trance, and House these types of music need the sub because most of their song have heavy bass that most speakers can't handle. The point to all this is this if you listen to music that's not really bass heavy then you may not need or want a sub but if you do I would suggest you consider getting one.


Well, of course a subwoofer would augment heavily a bass-rich genre such as house or trance (some of which I listen to -- more electronica stuff from my days as a DJ) but I still feel that a good pair of full-rangers with capable drivers can work just fine for two channel duties. My point is that what lsberian said -- holding that _every_ speaker _must_ be accompanied by a subwoofer -- I don't agree with.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm a bit like Ares except i'm almost positive he does listen to country:heehee:. I listen to almost everything and depending on what that type of music is will determin weather or not i use the sub.:T


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

bambino said:


> I'm a bit like Ares except i'm almost positive he does listen to country:heehee:. I listen to almost everything and depending on what that type of music is will determin weather or not i use the sub.:T


Country music.....out of a sub!?

What does that _sound_ like...:scratch::yikes::unbelievable:


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Osage_Winter said:


> Country music.....out of a sub!?
> 
> What does that _sound_ like...:scratch::yikes::unbelievable:


Sure, why not? But you would have to check with Ares as to what it sounds like.:heehee:


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

bambino said:


> Sure, why not? But you would have to check with Ares as to what it sounds like.:heehee:


I was just kidding...:T


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

recruit said:


> I do agree with this as for pure Hi Fi enthusiasts using a sub woofer for stereo reproduction is like blasphemy :yikes:


 Why?


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

Osage_Winter said:


> You mean the floorstanding P362s? Do they really need a sub?


 I don't know what "need" really means. A Primus 362 will not be able to generate the same SPL at 20Hz that it can at (say) 1KHz. I would personally run them with a sub.



> Are you serious?


 Yes. The modified speakers weigh about 125lbs each and include solid Oak, Concrete, and Steel Tubing as materials.



> I mean, why not just get "better" speakers to begin with?


 Because they do not exist to buy.



> Home theater is another thing -- for the LFE channel and such -- but in two channel, I don't see the statement of "there aren't many speakers that don't [need a sub]" as truly being accurate.


 Both sources bottom out a the same 20Hz. 



> Do you mean you agree that a sub doesn't necessarily need to accompany a full range speaker in a two channel setup?


 There's that "need" again. You could run a pair of $5 computer speakers without a sub if you like. 

Though I think you load that question with "full range". If the speakers are "full range" in the sense that they can produce (relatively) flat FR from 20Hz to 20KHz at the SPL you would like to listen to; then there would be nothing to add. 

I find that few speakers do this. My WmAx-modified Infinities, and B&W N801's come the closest. Some others that did well on the low-end without a sub include my 801sII, and Infinity RSIIIb (though they suffer in upper-registers from a questionable mid, and a ribbon tweeter past its prime).

I find that even a relatively low-end sub adds noticeably to speakers as high-end as my Paradigm Studio 40's. 



> Well, of course a subwoofer would augment heavily a bass-rich genre such as house or trance


 Or classical (Tocada Fuege by Bach and 1812 Overture by Tchaikovsky come to mind as very good examples: but the bottom registers on a piano are as well.

BTW: Another even better sounding suggestion would by a pair of Primus 162's, or Beheringer B2030P's paired with a decent pair of subs, runningin stereo with an external crossover (say a Beheringer CX). You'll lower your cabinet resonance over a comparable tower and improve your low-level SPL as well.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

JerryLove said:


> I don't know what "need" really means. A Primus 362 will not be able to generate the same SPL at 20Hz that it can at (say) 1KHz. I would personally run them with a sub.


I'm going by what you stated in the first place, regarding a sub with _any_ speaker. 



> Because they do not exist to buy.


Perhaps not in the most extreme sense of a modification, but there are already-existing top-notch speakers to purchase without needing to gut the insides of an otherwise mediocre product, which I just don't get. 



> There's that "need" again. You could run a pair of $5 computer speakers without a sub if you like.


Again, I'm going with what _you_ originally stated about most speakers requiring a sub. 



> Though I think you load that question with "full range". If the speakers are "full range" in the sense that they can produce (relatively) flat FR from 20Hz to 20KHz at the SPL you would like to listen to; then there would be nothing to add.
> 
> I find that few speakers do this. My WmAx-modified Infinities, and B&W N801's come the closest. Some others that did well on the low-end without a sub include my 801sII, and Infinity RSIIIb (though they suffer in upper-registers from a questionable mid, and a ribbon tweeter past its prime).
> 
> I find that even a relatively low-end sub adds noticeably to speakers as high-end as my Paradigm Studio 40's.


Well, of course I am referring to speakers that are just _capable_ when I say "full range;" in home theater, this is less of a cloudy area, as most film soundtracks benefit and are most of the time reliant on a sub/LFE channel, but with two-channel it gets a bit hazy I believe. For what it's worth from my experience, even good bookshelf models on stands, when given the right amplification behind them for two-channel use, can deliver a satisfying punch. Will they give you that visceral slam in the gut or deliver the pluck of a bass guitar that you can feel like you would with a separate sub? Of course not -- but that doesn't mean that every speaker requires a subwoofer to augment it, which is the way your original post made it seem you were standing by. 



> Or classical (Tocada Fuege by Bach and 1812 Overture by Tchaikovsky come to mind as very good examples: but the bottom registers on a piano are as well.


I've never listened to classical on my system, so I will take your word for that; I'm sure there are some lovely examples of low-registering notes in that music! 



> BTW: Another even better sounding suggestion would by a pair of Primus 162's, or Beheringer B2030P's paired with a decent pair of subs, runningin stereo with an external crossover (say a Beheringer CX). You'll lower your cabinet resonance over a comparable tower and improve your low-level SPL as well.


My goal with my two-channel room is to buy a pair of competent floorstanders that can deliver a bass punch from their own sustained cabinets and be done with it -- when I upgrade the subwoofer in my home theater, I'll move the Polk PSW350 I'm using in there now to the two-channel system. :T


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

Osage_Winter said:


> Perhaps not in the most extreme sense of a modification, but there are already-existing top-notch speakers to purchase without needing to gut the insides of an otherwise mediocre product, which I just don't get.


 My modified Primus 360's sound better than any prebuilt speaker I could locate to buy.



> Again, I'm going with what _you_ originally stated about most speakers requiring a sub.


 I believe what I said was that Primus 362's were "very nice when paired with a sub". That's simply my opinion of them in my own use. 

In regards to "listening in a room", there are few floor speakers that I don't prefer to add a sub. For near-field (the speakers on my PC) or low-fidelity (the integrated stereo in my kitchen), I don't run one. 



> Well, of course I am referring to speakers that are just _capable_ when I say "full range;" in home theater, this is less of a cloudy area, as most film soundtracks benefit and are most of the time reliant on a sub/LFE channel, but with two-channel it gets a bit hazy I believe.


 The LFE can be routed into the mains on any of the AVRs I have. 



> For what it's worth from my experience, even good bookshelf models on stands, when given the right amplification behind them for two-channel use, can deliver a satisfying punch. Will they give you that visceral slam in the gut or deliver the pluck of a bass guitar that you can feel like you would with a separate sub? Of course not -- but that doesn't mean that every speaker requires a subwoofer to augment it, which is the way your original post made it seem you were standing by.


 I don't think I've ever used the word "required" without being very specific in what I was describing ("it will require a sub to get a flat 20Hz to 20KHz response at moderately high SPL from a Paradigm Referece 20").

By all means. Go listen and decide for yourself. There is no right answer on something so subjective.



> My goal with my two-channel room is to buy a pair of competent floorstanders that can deliver a bass punch from their own sustained cabinets and be done with it -- when I upgrade the subwoofer in my home theater, I'll move the Polk PSW350 I'm using in there now to the two-channel system. :T


 Of the things I've listened to, and given your apparent budget ($600 or less?), and given your preference for new, I'd recommend taking a listen to the Infinity Primus 362's. Another good candidate might be the Paradim Monitor or SE line (you'll have to check prices though, they may be too high). Paradigm is another brand I've had good luck with in towers (a little resonant, but very full and rich). 

I'm sure there are many other good choices... but those are the ones that come to my mind within your criteria.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I love my Paradigms they are very good sounding for a cheaper speaker (Monitor 11's), like i said before, depending on the music with or without a sub.:T


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

JerryLove said:


> My modified Primus 360's sound better than any prebuilt speaker I could locate to buy.


Okay, but that doesn't mean that they _don't exist_...that's what I'm getting at. 



> I believe what I said was that Primus 362's were "very nice when paired with a sub". That's simply my opinion of them in my own use.


You also mentioned something along the lines of (I can't recall which post number or page at this point) "any speaker could use a sub" or something akin to making it seem like there isn't a speaker manufacturered that shouldn't be augmented with a sub... 



> In regards to "listening in a room", there are few floor speakers that I don't prefer to add a sub. For near-field (the speakers on my PC) or low-fidelity (the integrated stereo in my kitchen), I don't run one.


I would hope not, as that would redefine overkill and turn it into a dramatic understatement! (with regard to the last comment about your kitchen's system.) 



> The LFE can be routed into the mains on any of the AVRs I have.


Yes, of course that can be done -- but my point is that in home theater, the issue is a bit less complex and clearer than when talking about subwoofer activity in two channel systems; for the most part, a ".1" LFE channel/signal has been recognized as being tied to an outboard sub in most setups. With two channel it gets a bit more "iffy" as many people like myself feel a good full range speaker can handle musical demands in the bass department depending on its capabilities. 



> I don't think I've ever used the word "required" without being very specific in what I was describing ("it will require a sub to get a flat 20Hz to 20KHz response at moderately high SPL from a Paradigm Referece 20").


It may not have been the term "required" but it came across as seeming like you were stating any speaker should be paired with a sub, and I and some others like Recruit disagree; in all fairness, I would need to go back and see exactly what was said in that previous post before holding firm to a position. 



> Of the things I've listened to, and given your apparent budget ($600 or less?), and given your preference for new, I'd recommend taking a listen to the Infinity Primus 362's. Another good candidate might be the Paradim Monitor or SE line (you'll have to check prices though, they may be too high). Paradigm is another brand I've had good luck with in towers (a little resonant, but very full and rich).


Thanks; I shall definitely keep Infinity and Paradigm on my list. Your budget assumption is just about spot-on; I just can't believe the Infinitys get so much love being that they're seemingly so cheap!



> I'm sure there are many other good choices... but those are the ones that come to my mind within your criteria.


Indeed; speaker availablity choices are unlike any other subdivision in the audio/video industry in that there are literally a myriad of _endless_ options/companies/models etc...

It can get daunting trying to pick the right combination of price and purpose.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

bambino said:


> I love my Paradigms they are very good sounding for a cheaper speaker (Monitor 11's), like i said before, depending on the music with or without a sub.:T


Thanks Bambino; between you and Jerry, I have put the Paradigms (and Infinitys) on my list of speakers to consider. 

Would you say Paradigms are kind of the "affordable" entry into somewhat higher-fi sound?


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

Osage_Winter said:


> Okay, but that doesn't mean that they _don't exist_...that's what I'm getting at.


 LOL. One must stop looking at some point and actually buy something: or the sound is non-existant.



> You also mentioned something along the lines of (I can't recall which post number or page at this point) "any speaker could use a sub" or something akin to making it seem like there isn't a speaker manufacturered that shouldn't be augmented with a sub...


 If I did, I should not have. There are certainly speakers *extremely* capable to the bottom of human hearing.



> With two channel it gets a bit more "iffy" as many people like myself feel a good full range speaker can handle musical demands in the bass department depending on its capabilities.


 It's definately is issue of the taste of the listener. If you've heard both ways and find sans-sub to be just fine, then it's just fine 



> Thanks; I shall definitely keep Infinity and Paradigm on my list. Your budget assumption is just about spot-on; I just can't believe the Infinitys get so much love being that they're seemingly so cheap!


 The parent company is huge, and are benefiting from the economy of scale. Put simply: the MMD and CMMD drivers are phenominal for their price. The cross-overs and cabinets... not so much. 

For the money, the Behringer 2030P (not an option for you as it's a bookshelf) and the Infinity Primus 362 are the best I know. I think you may find the Paradigms even more to your taste, but the price moves up (I still think the monitors are in your range).

And, as I said before, there are no doubt other excellent speakers in there. I just don't know which they are. 



> It can get daunting trying to pick the right combination of price and purpose.


 Welcome to the hobby  At least most other components are more simple. Determine needed specs, find reliable brand, buy.



> Would you say Paradigms are kind of the "affordable" entry into somewhat higher-fi sound?


 They were for me. My first high-end speakers were a pair of Paradigm Studio 40v3's.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I would say yes depending on the line you get, they have several lines of speakers that i consider good: Monitor series, Studio, and the Signature series, in order from good, better and best. You should check out there site as they have several speakers that would suit your tastes.

I have the Monitor 11's which are the biggest floor standers in that line up and have them hooked to my Denon AVR and they go loud and clean, when things get really pretty is when you add outboard amplification to them then they just sing, it's wonderful. The Monitor series are also fairly efficiant so they do not require a ton of power to get loud but at the same rate when you do have the extra power they just about beg for more. I had an outboard amp on them for abit and never heard such wonderful sounds.:T


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

JerryLove said:


> LOL. One must stop looking at some point and actually buy something: or the sound is non-existant.


Perhaps there is indeed something to be said about that. :T



> If I did, I should not have. There are certainly speakers *extremely* capable to the bottom of human hearing.


As I said, I may have misquoted, and if I did, I stand corrected; at any rate, you are of the opinion that most speakers could benefit from an outboard sub, and I am of the camp that feels good floorstanding speakers driven with good, clean amplification are perfectly adequate (for two-channel duties)...it's all good. 



> It's definately is issue of the taste of the listener. If you've heard both ways and find sans-sub to be just fine, then it's just fine


I really only feel this way about home theater applications when talking about sub/sans sub; as I stated, I feel it gets a bit more controversial when it comes to stereo applications -- for HT, I personally wouldn't run a subless system even if I had massively engineered floorstanding mains. Just preference, as you said. 



> The parent company is huge, and are benefiting from the economy of scale. Put simply: the MMD and CMMD drivers are phenominal for their price. The cross-overs and cabinets... not so much.


You mean Harmon International? 



> For the money, the Behringer 2030P (not an option for you as it's a bookshelf) and the Infinity Primus 362 are the best I know. I think you may find the Paradigms even more to your taste, but the price moves up (I still think the monitors are in your range).


It's just so funny how the 362s are brought up _all over_ these boards, including passionate members on Audioholics; it's almost overwhelming, and causing me to want to hear what these affordable speakers are all about! 

Is it true that Infinity is dropping these soon? What is it about their sound that makes them so popular? 



> And, as I said before, there are no doubt other excellent speakers in there. I just don't know which they are.


Indeed... 



> Welcome to the hobby  At least most other components are more simple. Determine needed specs, find reliable brand, buy.


Yes, I wish the choices were less complex, such as with TVs -- you wouldn't think so with the advent and popularity of HDTV over the last few years, but televisions seem to be one of the easier things to buy, decision-wise, because overall, there aren't that many major manufacturers to select from (Sony, Panasonic, LG, etc.). 



> They were for me. My first high-end speakers were a pair of Paradigm Studio 40v3's.


Would they still be considered a kind of entry step into somewhat high end...today? My concern is that I get something that is a musical pair of floorstanders which reaches a little bit beyond the entry-level Polks that I have, and speakers along those lines...


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

bambino said:


> I would say yes depending on the line you get, they have several lines of speakers that i consider good: Monitor series, Studio, and the Signature series, in order from good, better and best. You should check out there site as they have several speakers that would suit your tastes.


I'll do that...



> I have the Monitor 11's which are the biggest floor standers in that line up and have them hooked to my Denon AVR and they go loud and clean, when things get really pretty is when you add outboard amplification to them then they just sing


Sounds like what's been said about my Polk RTi12's, regarding massive external amplification...haven't had a chance to experiment with that yet because I'm still running an Onkyo 605 to them...



> The Monitor series are also fairly efficiant so they do not require a ton of power to get loud but at the same rate when you do have the extra power they just about beg for more. I had an outboard amp on them for abit and never heard such wonderful sounds.:T


Good to know. As I said, I'll definitely put the Paradigms and Infinitys on my consideration list. 

Would you consider the Paradigms to be a "musical" speaker? Only asking because these will be used in my dedicated stereo setup -- and forgive me if we covered this before in a previous page of this now-long thread!


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I would consider them musical especially the farther up the line you go also the more expensive they get and power hungry as well. I'm quite pleased with my 11's as they have knoccked my socks off several times, like i said when i had the outboard amp on them they got night and day impressive (if that makes sense) i did not even use my sub when listening to Direct mode on my AVR, they reached very far (low and high) no matter what type of music i played, when i did kick in the sub and had it's volume just so things got even better.:T


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Thanks for the input.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

No problem, be sure to keep us posted on your findings Osage. Happy shopping and listening.:T


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

I shall indeed do that, buddy. :T


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

JerryLove said:


> Why?


A near full range speaker has always been preferred, music generally does not contain much bass below say 40-30hz unless you listen to Organ music or some Techno/Rave music as Tony put it so eloquently with the nice video too :bigsmile:, It's not to say having a sub does not work as I only recently had M&K speakers which required due to them being satellites and rolling off very quickly around the 80hz region and I did get them sounding very good with music, but my new ProAc's trounce all over them when it comes to music as they just sound so sublime when listening in direct mode which is its purest form.

Although I am going to try my new sub when it arrives a Martin Logan one when connected a t high level so we shall see...


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

recruit said:


> A near full range speaker has always been preferred, music generally does not contain much bass below say 40-30hz unless you listen to Organ music or some Techno/Rave music as Tony put it so eloquently with the nice video too :bigsmile:,


 crossover frequencies for subsare generally set around 80hz because that is where you start loosing undistorted spl on a large percentage of mains. Below that includes many types of drum, part of pianos and organs, bass guitars, and a large number of sunharmonics.

It all depends on your mains, your requiements, and your expectations.


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

> I really only feel this way about home theater applications when talking about sub/sans sub; as I stated, I feel it gets a bit more controversial when it comes to stereo applications -- for HT, I personally wouldn't run a subless system even if I had massively engineered floorstanding mains. Just preference, as you said.


 its all about needs and expectations.

I run a sub if i can and if it brings something to the table.



> You mean Harmon International?


I think there is a parent above them, but yes





> What is it about their sound that makes them so popular?


 low mass, low resonance, high rigidity, excellent off-axis measurements.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Hmmm. I don’t see a lot of problem here (I did skip a few pages so please let me know if I have missed something important)

Osage,
You currently have Both Polk and Infinity, the Polk I take it you have had for a while, so you know what they sound like.

Experiment: Take your Infinity’s from your HT room and put them in your 2 channel room for a listen

When you listen to both is there anything you enjoy about the sound from one that may be missing from the other? If so, can you describe it? Have you listened to someone else’s system with different speakers that You think sounds better? If so, what brand were they and if you can describe the difference that you found enjoyable.

If after the experiment you find you enjoy the sound of your Polks better then the Infinity’s and have not heard better from others then, “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it”, buy the best Polks you can afford. If you go wow these Infinity's kick the hell out of the Polks, buy yourself the best Infiity's you can afford

Since you are unable to audition other brands, buying a speaker “deaf” is silly, sure you can read reviews and “roll the bones” but you never know if YOU will like the sound. 

On the other hand if you have heard other speakers and/or you heard things you like about the Polk and some about the Infinities and can describe those properties, then perhaps a more pointed recommendation can be given.


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