# Streamlined system?



## ASword (Dec 14, 2015)

I am building a new home and need to equip a room for AV needs. I'm highly technical, but have left behind the desire to dabble in AV setups -- I just want something that meets the reality of how I consume my media. And that is via an AppleTV. Spare me any discussions of the merit of that, just accept it as given.

Also given: I have 4 Warfdale speakers from the 80s (90W and 75W pairs, IIRC), a centre front and a centre rear. And a powered sub. I also have a 720p projector and 108" screen that has a DVI input -- may replace that, eventually. Sooner if HDCP poses a problem.

Now for the complicated part: I despise all of the UIs of all these AV devices. I want to put the required equipment in a closet, hidden away never to be touched once setup is done. Stringing an IR repeater would be okay, but I don't want more than the AppleTV remote or something very similar that I can program that unit to understand plus a volume and power control.

Also, I'm not an audio or videophile but my hearing and eyesight is still pretty good (really good, truth be told). So I'd like good quality sound.

On the other hand, I'm not looking to spend a huge amount. Ideally $1K or less, but could be persuaded if there is what I consider merit to it.

So what do I need? I think an amplifier with 7.1 outputs and inputs, plus an HDMI decoder/de-embedder, and an HDMI to DVI adapter. But I know there are complications, and am looking for answers without having to do the leg work.

I look forward to your responses.


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## Mixc (Dec 16, 2015)

Have you considered a 7.1 Yamaha or similar receiver/ processor ?


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

How handy are you?

iRule with a couple GlobalCashè controllers would definitely be exactly what you're looking for from a control standpoint. 

I was originally going to recommend a harmony remote but you'll need to control equipment from two positions and I'm not a fan of having to point at the projector. 

I would ideally suggest a URC mx780 with an MRF260 but you'll have to pay someone to program it and you called out DIY. Same for Control4 or Savant (higher price but much more functionality)

As for an AVR... You can pick one up relatively cheap but maybe look into getting something more substantial. Rotel or Arcam will have power for days. Marantz has a good feature set and Yamaha (RX-A series) has a modicum of power for the price.


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## ASword (Dec 14, 2015)

I'm sorry, I obviously wasn't clear enough. I'm very handy (especially with software, having developed sophisticated stuff for 25 years), but that's a muscle i don't want to exercise for this purpose. I literally want to use ONLY the AppleTV remote. There is only one control position (my chair).

On the components in the closet I would like there to be virtually no buttons, no displays, nothing but a metal box or two that I plug HDMI into, plug the projector into, wire the speakers to, and plug into power. This is what the AppleTV is, and I'd like to get as close as possible to this for the conversion of the HDMI output into human consumable form.

My ideal would be that I send media or commands to the AppleTV and out comes audio and video. End of story. How close can I get to this nirvana?


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

New AppleTV will support CEC, add an AVR with CEC support and a Projo with the same and you should be in business.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

If your willing to spend money then virtually anything is possible. Have you considered a programmable remote like the Harmony line? The one I use has full IR and RF capabilities so all equipment can be controlled even if its hidden away.


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## ASword (Dec 14, 2015)

I shudder whenever I see "AVR". Never in all of history has a class of devices suffered so badly from featuritis. I've owned a few AVR over the last decade or two, and my experience is that those features come at a price... sometimes measured in dollars, but usually measured in complexity, robustness, odd behaviours, quirks, etc. What you are recommending is a device that has all that and *adds* the CEC feature. No. I don't want the billion features. I don't want product literature that proudly proclaims how many features they packed in (I just went and googled AVR CEC and the first three results did exactly that in the first sentence of their pitch). I want a product that is proud that it does NOT have features. Minimum plugs and buttons, little or no display, 1 mode, absolute minimum configuration.

This may be impossible, but the closer I can get to it, the happier I'll be. And yes, I'm hoping you guys will have done my research for me.


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## ASword (Dec 14, 2015)

Harmon remotes: I've seen them. I think I even owned one. I don't want one. The AppleTV's remote should be all I need (since the new one added a volume control, I believe?).

Note that I realize there may be hiccups on the road to Nirvana (for example, the AppleTV remote doesn't have a power button that would toggle the projector). I think these things can be solved, if starting from the point of simplicity and adding minimally. The problem is that this whole industry seems to be based on jumping in with every imaginable feature to start with, and then trying to avoid choking on it all. I've had enough of that. K.I.S.S.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yes, AVRs or receivers can be problematic but things have progressed enough that if you get away from the entry level receivers and spend more you will get something that functions better than what you think. 
With all the new processing thats required for movies you almost have to have a receiver or at least pre-pro and external amps if you want to have true surround sound.


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## ASword (Dec 14, 2015)

Can pre-pro and amps get me where I want to be? I'm thinking that's likely a preferable path...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yes, but at a much higher cost.
Emotiva makes nice multi channel amps and even a couple pre pro's

On a side note, you will have to make sure if you put these things in a closet or cabinet that there is lots of airflow with fans or things will overheat.


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## ASword (Dec 14, 2015)

Well for an amp I'm looking at the Outlaw 7075. The HDMI decoding stage is where I'm looking for interesting options. I don't know enough about HDMI and AppleTV to understand what is really required. For example is the Essence Evolve de-embedder good enough? If not, why not and what minimalist solutions exist?


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Simple for the end user is usually more complex for the integrator. 

The AppleTV volume control come via CEC. Sorry. 

Once apple opens the new AppleTV api then one could program an automation system to do what your asking. 

when ATV != "playing" start 15min timer 
when ATV = playing stop timer 
When ATV button presses if system = off start system. 
When timer expires turn system off. 

You'll still use CEC in this config for volume but you're goal of "I only want to use AppleTV's remote" would work. 

That said Savant has a very clean UI from their iOS interface and you would have functionality today.


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## ASword (Dec 14, 2015)

That level of detail isn't useful at this point -- I want to figure out what boxes I need first. Once I have selected them I can figure out how to control them. I can do plenty of integration tasks, so ignore that for now. The big question to answer is how to get from the HDMI domain to the analog audio domain plus an HDMI video stream for the projector.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

You'll need to define your source. Since we're talking AppleTV you'll have two basic options ATV3 or the new ATV. The first has an optical out in addition to HDMI but does not have CEC (assuming you still intent to try to use only the AppleTV remote). The other has internal storage a two way remote with Siri and CEC control but no optical out.

This is the first point to choose... What source/s will you use and what output do they support. 

Next you'll need to convert the audio portion of you A/V stream to something your amplifier can handle. Preferably you'll also want to be able to adjust the level of that signal going to an external amp. 

An AVR or Pre/Pro will do this for you assuming it has HDMI switching or at least optical switching in the case of the AppleTV3. Really any surround pre/pro will accomplish this part for you with little or no hassle. The new Marantz AV8802 or 7702 support all the latest formats and are DHCP2.2 compliant. They perform adorably and you should be well served by them. Try to avoid dismissing something like this because it has features you won't use. Just make sure it checks the boxes you do need. I'll add that you're not pushing difficult loads with those speakers so you really my be able to get by with an AVR; I'd just stick with a higher end make/model. Again Rotel and Arcam are very nice and they are lighter on feature set.

So that's the next part processing/switching/preamplication/...amplification??? (Possibly)

After that is UI/Control...

P. S. 
I seem to keep missing you're point/question. Was this helpful?


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## ASword (Dec 14, 2015)

Yes, my point is that AVRs are a disaster. You say don't worry about it, and I say that 100% of them that I've owned or used are awful. Those extra features I don't need bring costs, as I explained above. I've owned a few, I've used many owned by others. From $100 to $30k.. I've used systems set up by integrators, I've used systems set up by really smart enthusiasts. I've talked to plenty of people who have them and used them. They are dismally bad.  They are pieces of technology built by feature list and without regard to simplicity. I have zero faith that I could find one that I would regret within ten minutes of getting it home.
<\rant>

So assume I have an AppleTV4 and an HDMI cable. I have an Outlaw 7075 (or other if there are better choices). How to get audio out of HDMI and into amp with the least features and smallest box possible. Ignore the control problem for the moment. What boxes exist that get me closest to nirvana (as I've defined it)?


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

ASword said:


> Yes, my point is that AVRs are a disaster. You say don't worry about it, and I say that 100% of them that I've owned or used are awful. Those extra features I don't need bring costs, as I explained above. I've owned a few, I've used many owned by others. From $100 to $30k.. I've used systems set up by integrators, I've used systems set up by really smart enthusiasts. I've talked to plenty of people who have them and used them. They are dismally bad. They are pieces of technology built by feature list and without regard to simplicity. I have zero faith that I could find one that I would regret within ten minutes of getting it home. <\rant> So assume I have an AppleTV4 and an HDMI cable. I have an Outlaw 7075 (or other if there are better choices). How to get audio out of HDMI and into amp with the least features and smallest box possible. Ignore the control problem for the moment. What boxes exist that get me closest to nirvana (as I've defined it)?


One of these:
http://atlona.com/product/at-hd570/
Or these:
http://atlona.com/product/at-uhd-m2c-bal/

Now you'll need volume control.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Or an oppo bdp105


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

Maybe an Outlaw 975 pre-pro... nice signal processing, stripped down of all the bloated features. Only drawback for your application is that if you ever use anything other than the Apple TV, you'd have to press another button to change inputs. The UI is clumsy, but rarely needed after initial setup. Once you set it up, it's just kinda there. It's about 2RU, so it's a fairly small size. It will give you your 7.1 pre-outs which you can amplify however you see fit. About $600 shipped. I'd also recommend an 8-channel snake, RCA -> Whatever Suits Your Needs. That keeps all your signal lines nice and neat. 

The only thing I don't know about is using Apple TV remote as volume control. Anyone?


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

DqMcClain said:


> Maybe an Outlaw 975 pre-pro... nice signal processing, stripped down of all the bloated features. Only drawback for your application is that if you ever use anything other than the Apple TV, you'd have to press another button to change inputs. The UI is clumsy, but rarely needed after initial setup. Once you set it up, it's just kinda there. It's about 2RU, so it's a fairly small size. It will give you your 7.1 pre-outs which you can amplify however you see fit. About $600 shipped. I'd also recommend an 8-channel snake, RCA -> Whatever Suits Your Needs. That keeps all your signal lines nice and neat. The only thing I don't know about is using Apple TV remote as volume control. Anyone?


Apple uses CEC to control volume.


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## ASword (Dec 14, 2015)

Okay, now we're talking. 

A question about de-embedding though: does an HDMI signal *always* have these multi-channel PCM signals? Or are they only present from certain sources?

That oppo is surprising -- it looks like it has what I want but accidentally has a blu-Ray player built in.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Bitstream is decided by the receiving device and PCM is decided by the sending device. Some things can support both some only support one. 



ASword said:


> That oppo is surprising -- it looks like it has what I want but accidentally has a blu-Ray player built in.


Other way around. It's a bluray that has what you want built in.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Decoded not decided


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## ASword (Dec 14, 2015)

Okay, so does anyone know what the AppleTV 3 & 4 support?


Oppo: it's a matter of perspective.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

So, having just spent 24 seconds reading about CEC... if I understand it correctly, it's a protocol that's embedded into the device, and so the Apple TV remote volume control should allow the system volume to be varied as normal?

Or is it something fancier than that?


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

DqMcClain said:


> So, having just spent 24 seconds reading about CEC... if I understand it correctly, it's a protocol that's embedded into the device, and so the Apple TV remote volume control should allow the system volume to be varied as normal? Or is it something fancier than that?


Yes but it doesn't always play nice 100% of the time.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

ASword said:


> Okay, so does anyone know what the AppleTV 3 & 4 support? Oppo: it's a matter of perspective.


Bitstream for surround and pcm for stereo.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

rab-byte said:


> One of these:
> http://atlona.com/product/at-hd570/
> Or these:
> http://atlona.com/product/at-uhd-m2c-bal/


I'm intrigued! I had no idea where to even start looking. May I ask, how you come to know of the brand? TIA.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Lumen said:


> I'm intrigued! I had no idea where to even start looking. May I ask, how you come to know of the brand? TIA.


I'm a custom integrator/programmer for the high end arm of a national CE retailer. We specialize in complex systems including distribution and full blown theaters; some commercial too. 

Atlona is a brand I've grown to trust immensely. Their extenders work, their HDCP-sync works, and their matrices are second only to a Savant chassis. they're not cheap but they are one of the most integrator friendly brands I've come across.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Thanks, rab-byte. And apologies to the OP for the diversion.


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## ASword (Dec 14, 2015)

NP.

So the pointers and hints in the thread so far led me to find a couple of streamlined AV processors, like the Nuforce AVP18. These are very much along the lines of what I think I need. HDMI input(s), preamp outputs, HDMI video pass-thru, CEC and ARC support (although I won't need the latter). And not insanely priced. No excess of features or a gazillion connectors on both sides of the device.

Are there any other similar devices on the market in the same or lower price range?


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