# Electrostats & Line Arrays, can I come hear somones?



## BigQwerty (Mar 14, 2010)

Unfortunately I've been somewhat of a leech on this forum reading all the time and never posting. Well I'm going to change that now as I'm hoping to start some adventurous projects. My motto is do it right the first time and spend your money once. Basically go big or go home. 

I have never heard any electrostats in a full range speaker or a serious line array and I would desperately like to have a listen to someones projects before I commit blindly to a project. I live in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area of Minnesota so if anyone has a system I could come listen to I would REALLY appreciate it. I'm willing to travel a bit so please let me know.

I made up my mind that I'm going to build one of the two above types for either my turntable or my home theater system. I can only upgrade one part of each of my set ups at a time sadly, so I must choose. Currently I am sharing (hauling back and forth) a pair of Klipsch RB-35's between rooms as the theater fronts and the turntable. :flex: After new speakers are built the Klipsch will have to accompany the other setup until I have time for another upgrade.

Thank you!


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

DO you have a budget in mind. Line Arrays can be built on a small budget and sound amazing.

I have built a very cheap line array and it sounded great. I love Martin Logans and Maggie type designs but dont have the knowledge to build a clone of those.

SO you could go with a LA if budget is small and see if you like them. Then if you do or dont it wont be a huge investment.


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## BigQwerty (Mar 14, 2010)

I hadn't really put a budget together, but about $800 by the time all resources are acquired would be around my upper end. My wife would prefer $500 as an upper limit and she insists that I build my own as she likes to be able to pick the outer wood type (shell around the MDF board) and stain to match the rest of the house.

When you said a line array on a budget what ballpark would that be? "Budget" builds can vary significantly between points of view on projects. Even with a large budget if I liked a cheaper line array I wouldn't hesitate to build. Expensive isn't always better... just heavier. 

What were your driver choices? Pic?


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## gmannel (Jan 16, 2012)

http://billfitzmaurice.com/TLAH.html

My current project - budget is determined by driver selection.


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## BigQwerty (Mar 14, 2010)

I have already done a fair amount of research on LA's but I've never actually heard any in person which is what I was really seeking in this post. Maybe in a church or some large concerts and such but I would ideally like to hear some in person. I am still hoping there is someone in the Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area that has a solid Line Array that would permit me to come over for a sampling. My wood working skills are more than capable so a more advanced design would be no problem at all. Otherwise I'm always interested in other peoples projects if anyone has comments or advice.

One design I stumbled on a while back that intrigued me utilized about 40 laptop speakers per side side by side with a line of mids and then two 8" woofers at the base. But again, I would kind of like to hear some sort of a representation of a LA before I build.

On a side note my last upgrade was building a 5 foot tall, 30 inch diameter sono sub that can hit 6hz. With a signal generator we were at 4 and even 1hz but I'm not confident it was "real." At the time of testing we were in a rental house, who knows what kind of damage i may have done to it at those levels. In my mind there's no such thing as overkill.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

I wont go into the many variables with a LA but I believe the most important thing about a Line Array is the tweeter. Drivers for the mids and down are easy.

You can find mids from $.90-$5 that will be great. And if trying to just "test the waters," you can go with a cheap tweeter also such as Bill's SLA design. My SLA I built was from Bill's site mentioned earlier and it uses 18 tweeters and 9 mids.
18 x .50
9 x $1
$18 x two speakers. SO I had about 36 in speakers and then had to buy the wood passive crossover parts and binding posts. SO I had about $130 in all for my first LA. They can be powered by a simple AVR.

BUT when you learn more about line arrays the sky is the limit. You just have to pic SPL you want and extension and then just pic the drivers. Not to hard with all the modelling software and EQing devices out there.

I am sorry I am not closer or I would have you over for a listen to mine.


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## Oktyabr (Jan 31, 2012)

WOW!

I've had Martin Logan and Maggies... both were good but not good enough for me (at least) to hang on to "forever". I like DIY speaker projects but didn't consider LAs until this thread! Thanks for the photos! (/me wipes drool from chin and desk)


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## BigQwerty (Mar 14, 2010)

Yeah this is a project in general I've been toying with and trying to learn more about for over a year now. I seriously like the look those in the post a couple up and for $130 in part5s for a pair it seems like the perfect first LA project. I've built dozens of speakers already but I've actually never even seen an LA in person, ergo I NEED one!

Hey Chrapladm what did you think of those LA's you posted? Like you said, I probably wouldn't be happy with them forever but are they actually worth it? My wood working skill are far beyond capable so are they a decent representative of LA? Could you send me the plans you used and any available specs? I cant find them on Bills site and I'd like to give them a final once over. I guess there's a good chance I might order parts today.


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## gmannel (Jan 16, 2012)

The ones on Bill's site are called TLAH and the plans are available for download for cheap and are very detailed. Also worth a look is the MCLA - http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=214300&highlight=mcla, which I am considering using this incredibly priced driver - http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/aurasound-ns3-193-4a1-3-extended-range-black-cone-4-ohm/


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## gmannel (Jan 16, 2012)

Another thought for room filling sound and bang for the buck is the constant directivity Waveguide concept - http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=215536&highlight=econowave


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## BigQwerty (Mar 14, 2010)

Not really looking for the cheaper range bang for my buck. These projects may well indeed sound amazing but I'm looking for extravagant and unnecessary. Everyone has a budget and a cheaper LA to see if i like the sound is one thing but anything else is going to be go big or go home. Your LA pic doesn't look anything like the pics on bills TLAH which is what I was looking at but dismissed. You even have a different style and number of drivers. Did you make your own tweks or do the plans actually show exactly what you built?

MCLA... hmmm... (my eyes just lit up) I think I have some homework to do. A case of those drivers is incredibly reasonable! I fear I'm a rookie trying to take in to much information too quickly. Any advice or considerations I should take into account if I jumped into the MCLA? I will be doing a considerable amount of reading as well of course. Will my receiver be able to push these or do I get to build my own amp now too?


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## gmannel (Jan 16, 2012)

MCLA = no crossover to build as they are full range. LAs are very efficient as to power usage. When you read the MCLA thread u will learn a lot. My HT will have one of Bill's TubaHT subs which I'm building now at 24" size with a Dayton Titanic 15" driver, so I will set about a 100Hz high pass to the full range MCLA. Center is to be an EconoWave DeltaLite. Don't dismiss the TLAH, resize it and upgrade drivers if u want. Consider active crossovers using the miniDSP.


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## BigQwerty (Mar 14, 2010)

I just now realised I was comparing the pic *chrapladm *posted to the TLAH on Bills site and thats where my confusion stemmed from in the posted picture discrepancies. Oops. It was his pic that I had expressed interest in. Again, sorry.


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## gmannel (Jan 16, 2012)

The TLAH also is done in rectangular floorstanding types as well. Another hot concept for the adept woodworker is the CBT line arrayhttp://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/images/_MG_2364.jpg, http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/CBT.php, http://www.audioartistry.com/products_CBT.htm


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## BigQwerty (Mar 14, 2010)

I saw those a couple of months ago actually. They were featured on the cover of PE's catalog and advertised as kits coming soon. Wanted to look into them more but couldn't find any real information.


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## BigQwerty (Mar 14, 2010)

I was just talking to a friend about subs and trying to convince him not to build a sonosub like mine and your tuba sub that you mentioned popped into mind. He's a little ways away from a build but completely open to all ideas. You should keep me posted with a couple pics and what your thoughts are on the project if you don't mind. We may need to move that to a new thread.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Those links are to Don Keele's CBT speakers. Similar to the LA's but shading is different in the CBT where in a LA they is no shading. 

Just have a budget and SPL wants in mind and then go from there. Like I said, my LA will take me about 3 years to complete because the parts are expensive. So to hold me off for a while I am going to build a 3 way speakers using the parts for the LA.

These are about 1400 a pair for the kits.









I have tons of pics of all different type of LA's its just a matter of budget and SPL. Like I said mine will be expensive, and that why such a long completion time is warranted. Some can buy all the parts at once but I can not.:hissyfit:

Some people like the LA's and some prefer Ewaves. SO try and listen to one first, build a budget one or sample the component drivers you want to use and then build your BIG LA.

Big Qwerty did you not like your Sonosub?

I built mine with dual opposed 15's sealed and they rocked the my room.:hsd::hide:








On the left with the Acrylic top is the dual 15 sono and on the right is the THT Lp.


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## gmannel (Jan 16, 2012)

What are those drivers in those nice ribbon 2 way LAs?


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

I believe those are the PT2 Palnar from Parts express.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=275-085

They just raised the price a while ago, other wise I was going to buy those ribbons and some nice 6.5's. I dont recall which 4" driver they are using in the pic but I can find out.

Here is a helpful link for you to read if you want to understand the LA more.
http://audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf

But everything said and done just try and hear the components first before buying a bunch of them. If one does not sound good then you are only out one driver verse 10. Go with your ears and not just specs.


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## gmannel (Jan 16, 2012)

That Griffin paper is a great link, thanks!
That would seem to reinforce my thought that a full height ~3" full range type driver LA would make good side surrounds, at least for some HT layouts. (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/aurasound-ns3-193-8a1-3-black-cone-wide-range/, or Dayton ND65, 90 or 91's)
I saw somewhere where a single HF driver(?ribbon?) was incorporated into the array, but then you would have to do a crossover.


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## BigQwerty (Mar 14, 2010)

Big Qwerty did you not like your Sonosub?

I built mine with dual opposed 15's sealed and they rocked the my room.:hsd::hide:
On the left with the Acrylic top is the dual 15 sono and on the right is the THT Lp.[/QUOTE]

I absolutely LOVE my sono! I used a single 15" TC-2000 and lined the entire inside with some top notch acoustic thinsulate that NASA uses. My friend doesn't really have adequate space at the moment and his future living arrangements are uncertain... possibly an apartment? Also I'll be the one helping him move. So if we went with more reasonable 8" drivers I think there might be better designs. Then in the future we'll reconsider and rebuild bigger.


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## Oktyabr (Jan 31, 2012)

Oi! You thread pirates move along with all that sub talk!







New threads are on sale right now me thinks and even includes some free PMs 

Ahem, back to the topic at hand... If you DO make a crossover for an LA what special considerations have to be taken in to effect? Specifically, can you treat the woofer and tweeter lines as a pair of single speakers and just design a simple two way or do you have to get more complex based on the actual number of drivers?


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## Jstslamd (Nov 30, 2010)

You took the words right out of mouth.


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## BigQwerty (Mar 14, 2010)

By using pairs/chains of series or paralleled drivers should I pay any special attention to the organization of the clusters? I don't have a specific example to point to but I'm visualizing a potential situation with an odd number of drivers to make the proper impedance. Would any single driver or cluster stand out from the rest?


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## gmannel (Jan 16, 2012)

2-way unless you shade


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

You just need to make sure your wire the clusters the same. In other words dont have a cluster that is 4ohms while the rest are 8 ohms.

I used 9 because my speakers were 6 ohm. And 6 ohm is preferable on most smaller AVR's. But I will be rebuilding my LA's in the future for a 2ohm impedance so I can get more power from a power amp.


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