# Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ray...



## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

Greetings Everyone!

Wanted to introduce myself as a new member of the board, as well as a recently drafted soldier over the fence from standard definition optical media to high definition....it took some pondering between HD DVD and Blu ray, but due to, as you all know, a (what appears to be) potent collection of titles available now and to be in the future, my heart seems True Blu -- at least for now....

Unfortunately, my first experiences with this new technology have not been so exciting. I recently relocated with my significant other into a new apartment, and we jumped into Blu ray, as I mentioned, acquiring the Panasonic player and a new Onkyo TX-SR605 with onboard decoding of the new HD audio formats...along for the ride was also a new Sony 50" SXRD rear projection display. Being an absolute home theater hobbyist fanatic, I am thoroughly familiar with the ins and outs of standard DVD and its relating equipment (coaxial/optical connections, bitstream signals for Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks, etc.)...however, I enlisted some help from a private recommended installer to assist me with the setup of the blu ray deck and receiver (and TV). Before I get into the issues I have been having with the software and what I find I don't care for so far, let me explain how everything is connected so perhaps someone could better understand the workings of the system and attempt to figure out if it happens to be anything in the "handshaking" behavior of the HDMI connections....

The Panasonic player is running HDMI OUT to the Onkyo's HDMI INPUT 1, and then there is an HDMI cable running from the receiver's HDMI OUT to the Sony display's HDMI input, so the audio and video can flow simultaneously. I SPECIFICALLY purchased this new receiver because I understand it has all the onboard decoding for the new formats, including Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS HD and DTS HD Master Audio, and I prefer to have the amplifier/receiver decode and process the audio via a bitstream signal rather than have a player do it -- and, as I will explain later, and of course you all know, these second generation players just wont pass the HD soundtracks via bitstream, so I feel like that was a waste of money. At any rate, here are most of the issues I am having, along with their corresponding connection attributes:

I believe the display I purchased can accept 1080p signals, and the Panasonic's HDMI RESOLUTION control in the setup menu is set to 1080p -- so this should be giving me full 1080p resolution; however, I find that most of the discs that came in the box with the player, such as Pirates of the Caribbean and Fantastic 4 -- not to mention the two titles I have purchased on my own, Spider Man 3 and John Carpenter's Halloween -- just don't....well....look all that great. I was expecting jaw-dropping detail and resolution from 1080p material, and dont get me wrong -- the colors are rich and fantastic for the most part, and the black levels are spot-on and dark....it's just that the amount of grain and background noise these discs -- or player -- are exhibiting is quite dissapointing. Is there supposed to be this much fine grain running in the background of the films? The whispy, fog-ladened scenes in films like Pirates gets rather "blocky" looking on my Sony, not really exhibiting a jaw-dropping appearance....it seems only the really bright, colorful, outdoor sequences in HD films exhibit the clarity and detail which approaches what I expected of Blu ray; is this normal? Now, I KNOW for a fact that the player is set for 1080p video, so it should be sending the video 1080p to the TV....AND, the Panasonic's picture setting modes (which you owners would know) are set like this:

PICTURE is set to SOFT, which seems to eliminate SOME of the noise and grain from certain scenes....other modes like NORMAL, CINEMA or FINE look much worse in comparison...

The DNR setting is ON (I believe this is for digital video noise reduction), and I can actually see a difference in the background noise of a scene when I freeze it, leaving the setting ON....

I've tried the other settings, like USER, which lets you fine tune things like GAMMA, 3D NOISE REDUCTION and COLOR, but these settings, no matter how many times I play with them, just seem to make the picture worse....should I mess with these?

Now, on my Sony display, I have the picture settings on STANDARD, not VIVID, which is just too sharp and oversaturated, especially for my viewing distance (which I believe MAY be contributing to the grain problem from my sweet spot), and everything else is on factory defaults, like color, sharpness, hue, Picture Contrast (which is all the way up to MAX) and Automatic Iris (setting "2")....I read another thread on here where someone posted the "ideal" settings for a Sony rear projection set, and the numbers were different from this, so perhaps it's my set's levels; they haven't been calibrated. Could this be adding to the problem?

The installer who worked with me set all the Panasonic's audio outputs to BITSTREAM, unaware and uninformed that this player does not pass bitstream audio for the new codecs via HDMI -- more on that in a minute. Standard Dolby Digital and DTS tracks from DVD pass just fine via HDMI through the Onkyo, coming up on the display as "Dolby D" or "DTS" with the HDMI logo lit, as well. So I know that's correct. The problem comes into play with the new HD audio tracks -- I simply do not understand how this all works. It took me weeks of reading the manual and playing with the unit to figure out that the settings made in the DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT menu of the Panny's player actually affect the COAXIAL and OPTICAL jacks -- NOT the HDMI output. But this confused me even more, because under these DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT setting choices are, along with Dolby Digital and DTS, the new codecs -- Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD (but not Master Audio; this unit does not support it at all)....so, my question becomes if these new formats can only be passed via HDMI, which I thought is how they worked, then why on Earth are they listed under the standard DIGITAL audio output that goes through coax and optical??? 

Alas, all settings were made to BITSTREAM here, and of course, I have DVD audio soundtracks being decoded by the receiver, but not the new HD tracks....when I switch the high definition soundtrack settings to PCM in the player, then it sends the PCM track of the soundtrack (Dolby TrueHD, etc.) through a multichannel signal to the receiver, whose front display then reads "HDMI/PCM/MULTICHANNEL"....the tracks actually sound louder and punchier this way, as I am assuming the player is decoding the track and sending it to the receiver over HDMI via PCM (hearing the actual "lossless" audio), HOWEVER, this is not how I wanted the system to run....I was looking forward to the "DTS MASTER" and "DOLBY TRUEHD" logos to illuminate on the Onkyo, like it does with DTS and Dolby Digital....thus, I keep everything on BITSTREAM now, and choose the UNCOMPRESSED PCM track on a Blu ray disc when given the option.

Case in point: When I watched Spider Man 3 last night, there was a choice for Dolby TrueHD as an English surround audio track -- I tried selecting it, watched my receiver do the flashing HDMI thing as it tried to handshake with the player, and then....just as I thought, the receiver dropped into regular Dolby Digital mode....not Dolby TrueHD. I switched to the Uncompressed PCM track instead. What is the deal with these "lossless" codecs? Are they really worth all this trouble? I know all about the firmware and software updates for these second generation machines, but it just seems so exhausting to go through; would a firmware update correct the issue with the player passing the signals via bitstream? Now, another question I have is regarding these "Uncompressed PCM" tracks...based on the way I have the system set up, with everything running through HDMI, am I hearing the "correct" audio stream when selecting these tracks off the discs? Like I said, I select the uncompressed track from the menu, press play, and my receiver reads "MULTICHANNEL" in the middle of the display, as a listening mode, and above it are the small lights which read "PCM", "HDMI" and "MULTICH"....I assumed this meant the receiver was actually receiving the PCM track and playing it back in a multichannel mode, but I want to make sure because usually "MULTICHANNEL" means you have the ANALOG inputs running to a decoding player, and mine is connected via HDMI. So am I actually hearing these uncompressed PCM tracks correctly like this? 

DTS Master Audio is another problem. I have been excited to experience this new format, being a diehard fan of DTS audio, but I sadly learned that this player does not even support the format, let alone decode it for playback. So, with Fox titles like Fantastic 4 where there is only a Master Audio track to select, I have to select it and watch as my receiver strips the core DTS track from the disc and play it back as some kind of "enhanced" DTS....the audio is okay, but I was expecting to experience this new audio format in all its resolution. When I switch the "DTS HD" audio selection in the Panasonic's menu to PCM instead of BITSTREAM, Fantastic 4's Master Audio track enters that MULTICHANNEL mode on my receiver (as the PCM tracks do) and the audio gets louder and more vibrant -- suggesting to me that the player is decoding the track and sending it PCM to the receiver. Again, though, this is not how I wanted to run the system...if I wanted to run multichannel signals to the receiver, I would not have invested in the TX-SR605, and instead would have kept my TX-SR600 and just ran the multichannel analog jacks between the player and receiver; I bought this unit for the onboard decoding. And thats another head scratcher: if the Panasonic unit does not even support DTS Master Audio, then why is Fantastic 4's Master Audio signal being processed by the player as "DTS-HD MULTICHANNEL"? Does the player automatically send a DTS HD signal instead of a DTS Master Audio signal, and is this the somewhat "enhanced" DTS mode I was told about that this player will pass instead of DTS Master Audio? And why is the Panasonic's audio display, when I press the onscreen prompt, reading "MULTI" after each HD track listing? With standard DVDs, the display reads "D. Digital 3/2/1 ch" but with Blu ray soundtracks, no matter what the track, it reads "TrueHD MULTICH" or "DTS HD MULTICH" or "LPCM MULTICH".....is this because no matter how I cut it, the player MUST decode the track internally? I assumed because the Onkyo receiver did HDMI 1.3a the Panasonic would be able to talk to it -- but is this Panasonic only 1.2?

Now, UPCONVERTING standard DVDs in another big problem I am having with this unit....as I mentioned, the player is set for 1080p output through HDMI, so that means that even standard DVD should be upconverted for that resolution, correct? Well, when I watch most standard def DVDs, the picture quality can be somewhat....well....atrocious, depending on the disc. Grain, dirt and all kinds of video artifacts wash over my regular DVDs when watching them through the HDMI 1080p selection -- dark, interior scenes look worse than they ever did on my old $100 Panasonic DVD player running 480P Progressive Scan; in dark sequences, there is an annoying video noise that runs in the background -- the only way I can reduce this noise is by selecting the SOFT setting on the player, which softens the picture but also gets rid of a lot of the grain. I have tried switching the resolution to 480P, 720P and even 1080i when watching regular DVDs, and 480p actually makes the films look a bit better than keeping it on 1080p. I simply cannot believe this. Is this because 1080p is magnifying and amplifying all the imperfections on the regular DVD discs? Could it be my seating position to the screen, which is pretty close? I have a 50" SXRD, and the seating position is six or so feet away. Could it be the HDMI cables connecting the system? Could it be the video processing inside the Onkyo which isnt really passing through 1080p and somehow adding some signal degredation somewhere? Some DVDs are really bad -- older films like The Exorcist or Twilight Zone: The Movie are almost unwatchable because of the grain that flickers in the background of the dark scenes when the setting is on 1080p for the HDMI output. 

Are grainy standard def DVDs normal when upconverting them on one of these Blu ray decks? It's to the point that I am considering taking the $600 loss on the player and going out to replace it with a good standard upconverting DVD player, of which the familiar, easy and inviting codecs from Dolby Digital and DTS can still put a smile on my face...at least until all these HDMI/firmware bugs can be worked out of these things. If anyone could shed any light on any of these issues I am having, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You, and Looking Forward to Being a Home Theater Shack Forum Member!!


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

Seems like you want very well done upconversion of SD DVDs. Look for a hi def player with the Reon chip. The new Samsung dual format player just now coming out has it and will pass the new codecs raw bitstream out HDMI 1.3 to your Onkyo:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...msungs-bd-up5000-duo-hd-player-announced.html

or you might find a HD-XA2 which also has it (but hi def is HD DVD only).


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



bobgpsr said:


> Seems like you want very well done upconversion of SD DVDs. Look for a hi def player with the Reon chip. The new Samsung dual format player just now coming out has it and will pass the new codecs raw bitstream out HDMI 1.3 to your Onkyo:
> http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...msungs-bd-up5000-duo-hd-player-announced.html
> 
> or you might find a HD-XA2 which also has it (but hi def is HD DVD only).


Thanks for your reply, Bob!

Indeed, this is good info; is it common for the high def decks without the Reon chip to make upconverted DVDs look...well....kind of noisy and grainy? Is this possibly because the 1080p upconversion is simply amplifying all the negative aspects of the DVD transfer? Is it done purposely so that we watch standard DVDs and think "that looks like ***....I need to buy Blu ray discs!"? Should I instead keep my HDMI resolution output on a "smoother" setting like 480p? I watched Batman Begins upconverted last night and the dark sequences looked absolutely horrendous -- there was background pixelation and all kinds of noise which caused dark color bleeding and such; is this common for upconverted DVDs? I have read and heard that simply magnifying 480 resolution to a psuedo-HD 1080p is causing the smaller images in the picture to become somewhat blurry and unsharp; is this so? Because it seems like this is what is happening....

Also, I appreciate your suggestion for the dual format player (which I originally considered getting), but we decided to stick with Blu ray for now, so I am absolutely kicking myself for buying this Panasonic generation II which does not pass the high resolution audio formats via bitstream, which I was misled by salesmen who told me it sure does. Now, I am kind of stuck with this player until I can scoop up enough cash to take the loss and buy a new one with all the kinks shaken out.....like those that can pass the bitstream signals so my Onkyo amp can decode them...

Can anyone help me with the issues Im having in terms of the PCM uncompressed tracks and such? When selecting uncompressed PCM soundtracks from the Blu ray disc menus, my amp goes into "MULTICH" mode, with HDMI and PCM illuminated on the display above it....is this the correct listening mode for these tracks? Am I hearing the uncompressed mix from the disc this way? I read somewhere that using the DIRECT mode of the receiver is the way to hear these tracks in all their glory, but when I switch from Multichannel to Direct, I cannot hear a difference when playing the PCM tracks.....is there a difference?

Thanks to anyone who can continue to assist. :whew:


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



ShnuggMac said:


> When selecting uncompressed PCM soundtracks from the Blu ray disc menus, my amp goes into "MULTICH" mode, with HDMI and PCM illuminated on the display above it....is this the correct listening mode for these tracks? Am I hearing the uncompressed mix from the disc this way? I read somewhere that using the DIRECT mode of the receiver is the way to hear these tracks in all their glory, but when I switch from Multichannel to Direct, I cannot hear a difference when playing the PCM tracks.....is there a difference?


MULTICH is correct. I would suggest not using DIRECT since you want your AVR to do bass management, speaker distance, etc which is not done in DIRECT mode. I am of the opinion that DIRECT mode is really meant for two channel afficianos with large main speakers.


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



bobgpsr said:


> MULTICH is correct. I would suggest not using DIRECT since you want your AVR to do bass management, speaker distance, etc which is not done in DIRECT mode. I am of the opinion that DIRECT mode is really meant for two channel afficianos with large main speakers.


Thanks again Bob for your continued assistance; okay -- thanks for clearing up the DIRECT issue for me....and your explanation of how we want the AVR to handle bass management and distances, etc. has lead me to another question for you:

When going HDMI out from the Blu ray deck and keeping the player's SPEAKER OUTPUT settings on "Multi Channel" (indicating the PLAYER itself can be adjusted for the speaker levels, distances, etc. instead of the receiver), and when playing PCM tracks from these Blu ray discs, is the aforementioned "MULTICHANNEL" mode on the receiver (running "PCM/HDMI/MULTICHANNEL" on the display, as I mentioned) somehow being affected by this setting? In other words, are the settings I made in the receiver's calibration menu staying the same and being relevant when playing back PCM tracks with the Blu ray player set to "Multichannel" speaker output? See, I was under the assumption that within the player itself (even DVD players), when you select "Multichannel" for speaker setup, this allows you to adjust all the calibration, distances, etc. instead of a receiver doing it....but what happens when you are running DIGITAL OUT (coax/optical) or HDMI OUT from a player then -- are the speaker settings ignored completely at the player and handled strictly at the receiver even though the PLAYER'S speaker outputs are set for Multichannel? :raped::hush:


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

What you describe is normally for using the 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs from a player. Normally any such adjustments should not be enabled (or asked for) in an HDMI connected player since an AVR receiving the digital audio via LPCM can do all the needed adjustments. When using LPCM audio via HDMI then leave the player's speaker settings to LARGE, distances to 0 and levels to 0. Let the AVR do that stuff.


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

It sounds like the player you purchased may not output the better HD audio formats over HDMI in their native format, which is why it outputs multichannel PCM. That's not really bad, since that's pretty much what the receiver is going to do before playing around with the signals anyway. As for why it drops down to Dolby Digital when you try to use the coax/optical audio output, that's because the other end in the receiver isn't equipped to accept the new HD formats over that type of input (nor are any other receivers or processors).

I second that you will want something that does excellent upconversion if you are playing SD DVDs on this player. I don't know which player you got, but many of them don't play back SD DVDs very well, upscaled. A HQV or Realta chipset in either the player, receiver, or TV will do better, but you need to make sure you use it by having all the other gear in your chain _not_ perform any video filtering (no noise reduction, or resizing, etc.). Faroudja is the older chipset that is still very good.


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



bobgpsr said:


> What you describe is normally for using the 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs from a player. Normally any such adjustments should not be enabled (or asked for) in an HDMI connected player since an AVR receiving the digital audio via LPCM can do all the needed adjustments. When using LPCM audio via HDMI then leave the player's speaker settings to LARGE, distances to 0 and levels to 0. Let the AVR do that stuff.


Hey Bob,

Thanks again for getting back to me; let me address some of what you say here above as it has cleared some things up for me, yet Im still a bit foggy....

Indeed, I understand those "multichannel" speaker setups in DVD players/Blu ray players etc. are for adjusting the controls when analog outputs are active; on this Panasonic player, it's not that the settings are "asked for" but there IS a menu selection to change these and I was wondering if changing them -- even with my system set up through HDMI -- is making ANY difference in sound when playing these "PCM Uncompressed" soundtracks off the Blu ray discs, or if my receiver is handling all the calibration, distance etc. at that point....

But it concerns me that you say to leave the speakers on LARGE on this setup in the player; first of all, I am using Polk bookshelfs that are not running full range because I have a sub, and second, if you say that none of these settings are affected when running LPCM via HDMI, as my setup is, why leave the front mains on large?

Thanks for your continued assistance.


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

You set the speakers to SMALL in your AVR. Just do that in one place only given that your are using a digital (LPCM via HDMI) input to your AVR.


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



bobgpsr said:


> You set the speakers to SMALL in your AVR. Just do that in one place only given that your are using a digital (LPCM via HDMI) input to your AVR.


Oh yes, Bob, that I know -- of course, because I am running bookshelf speakers all around and have a sub, I would set the speakers at the amp to SMALL -- actually, with this receiver, Onkyo's new TX-SR605, there are no SMALL or LARGE settings, like my old Onkyo or conventional receivers do, but rather EACH INDIVIDUAL crossover point for EACH speaker in the system. In other words, under SPEAKER CONFIGURATION, you select FRONT, CENTER, LEFT SURROUND, RIGHT SURROUND, etc, and for each speaker you need to set the crossover points instead of Large, Small, etc.; it really annoys me and is much less simple than the old Small/Large selections, but I have all the speakers set to "80Hz" to send bass below them to the sub; does this sound right then?

I actually had to run out earlier so I was not able to reply to your whole post before, nor to the other member who responded to me after you, Joshua I believe, so I am going to go back and do so now...

Thanks again for your continued help.


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

Hello Josuah,

Thanks so much for your help along with Bob's; I have been struggling with this new technology until I found this site! Let me address some of the things you outline below:

*It sounds like the player you purchased may not output the better HD audio formats over HDMI in their native format, which is why it outputs multichannel PCM.*

Yes, indeed I was not aware that this Panasonic Blu ray deck (see my sig for model) did not output the new high def audio signals via bitstream and over HDMI until I already dropped 600 bucks on it; I SPECIFICALLY and intentionally bought the Onkyo receiver so it could internally decode these new formats from a bitstream signal, which the 605 does, but later found out the PLAYER could not send the bitstream signals....I HAD THOUGHT that both these units would "handshake" and talk to each other through HDMI 1.3, but I believe this Panasonic deck only mandates HDMI 1.2....now Im stuck with this player. As you said, the soundtracks can be passed via PCM to the receiver, but I have some questions about this first...

You mention below this process is "okay" to do, but is it the BEST way to get these TrueHD, DTS HD and DTS Master Audio (which this player doesnt support at all yet Fox Blu ray titles all have these tracks) soundtracks to the speakers for optimum enjoyment of them? And so, then I must ask, should then the audio settings for the high definition formats on the Blu ray player (Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD) just simply be left on PCM and not BITSTREAM? See, if I leave those settings on BISTREAM, the "core" mix of these soundtracks are extracted somehow and sent as regular Dolby Digital or DTS tracks where the receiver indicates "DTS" or "Dolby D" on the display...in other words, if I watch, say, Fantastic 4 on Blu ray, and choose the DTS MASTER AUDIO track from the menu, and the player is set to BITSTREAM for DTS HD, my receiver switches to DTS mode and plays a sort of "enhanced" DTS mix from this disc; is this normal? If I leave the audio output for DTS HD on PCM on the player, the player sends a multichannel PCM mix to the receiver and the receiver lights up "PCM/HDMI/MULTICHANNEL" as it does when playing back Uncompressed PCM tracks on Blu ray discs.....does this mean Im getting the TRUE high definition mix from the disc because it is sending it via PCM to the receiver and the receiver is spitting it out as is? Which way should I leave it, BISTREAM or PCM on the player?

And another question here....if you (or anyone else) is familiar with these Panasonic players, under the SETUP menu, there are only audio options under "DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT", which means to me that these settings would only affect the COAXIAL and OPTICAL digital outs, not HDMI.....but then why are there settings under this Digital Audio Output for the high definition codecs like Dolby Digital Plus and DTS HD when these soundtracks can ONLY be passed via HDMI? And why are the soundtracks altered at all when I switch back and forth between PCM and BITSTREAM for the high resolution audio codecs? In other words, when I switch, under this DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT, from PCM to BITSTREAM or back again, the output of the audio from these Blu ray discs IS changing -- either I am getting a downconverted Dolby Digital or DTS mix, indicated on the receiver's display (going BITSTREAM), or Im getting a multichannel PCM transfer to the receiver (going PCM).....but this should have no affect, right, because this DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT is only to serve the COAX or OPTICAL jacks, no? I have nothing connected into COAX or OPTICAL because Im running STRICTLY HDMI....so is this why the Blu ray player is seeing the HDMI hookup as the only "DIGITAL" hookup and therefore responding to changes made at the Dolby Digital Plus/DTS HD/Dolby TrueHD settings?

*That's not really bad, since that's pretty much what the receiver is going to do before playing around with the signals anyway. As for why it drops down to Dolby Digital when you try to use the coax/optical audio output, that's because the other end in the receiver isn't equipped to accept the new HD formats over that type of input (nor are any other receivers or processors).*

Actually, I am NOT using, as outlined above, the coax or optical jacks for anything because I am running HDMI ONLY....I understand these new codecs like Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, etc. cannot be passed through coax or optical, but I am just wondering why under my player's DIGITAL AUDIO OUT menu there are distict settings available for these new HD codecs (BITSTREAM or PCM), but I had assumed this part of the setup menu was for COAX or OPTICAL only, NOT HDMI....yet, changing these settings DOES indeed affect the audio......

*I second that you will want something that does excellent upconversion if you are playing SD DVDs on this player. I don't know which player you got, but many of them don't play back SD DVDs very well, upscaled.*

Now, see, THIS I did not know before jumping into high def and buying this player....and it makes sense because regular DVDs look atrocious on this player.....I mean really bad. This is unfortunate because I have a tremendous DVD library and need the upconversion to look better than this....is there a reason why these players dont scale the regular DVDs well? 

*A HQV or Realta chipset in either the player, receiver, or TV will do better, but you need to make sure you use it by having all the other gear in your chain _not_ perform any video filtering (no noise reduction, or resizing, etc.). Faroudja is the older chipset that is still very good.*

Thanks for the info, as Bob had suggested this too; can you suggest a Blu ray player that contains the Realta chipset and can output these new HD audio formats in BITSTREAM format, too? Is it too early to be requesting this, or have the generation III units begun shipping with these abilities? By the way, if you look at my signature below, you will see the model of my Panasonic; can you tell me if my machine contains the better chipset?


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

Hello Again Bob,

The reason that I had questioned you about what you posted was because you had suggested this:

*When using LPCM audio via HDMI then leave the player's speaker settings to LARGE, distances to 0 and levels to 0. Let the AVR do that stuff.*

....suggesting to me that the PLAYER needs to be set to LARGE in terms of speaker setup THERE, not the receiver....


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

Also, Guys, I had some more questions regarding all this....

Last night, I sat down to watch Armageddon (the original DVD release of this title from Buena Vista/Disney/Touchstone with no anamorphic enhancement, NOT the Criterion edition, which also doesnt have 16X9 enhancement, believe it or not) and usually when I watch this disc, I need to use some kind of zoom mode because it is not enhanced for widescreen sets....however, the picture was automatically stretched to fill the 16X9 frame nicely (still, with the letterboxing, but the more correct ratio to make up for the lack of enhancement) when I played it back on this Panasonic Blu ray player....I couldnt, for the life of me, figure out what setting was making it fill the frame better to make up for the anamorphic issue, until I finally stumbled on the cause: the player is set to output 1080p to my TV, and that was automatically giving the DVD anamorphic enhancement without a zoom, focus, or any other setting....is this normal? Is the fact that Im running the player at 1080p to the TV the reason why the nonanamorphic discs are being stretched to better fill the screen?

Also, when running UNCOMPRESSED PCM tracks from the Blu ray discs, is it correct that the track is passed to my receiver to read "MULTICHANNEL" on the display, with "PCM/HDMI/MULTICHANNEL" illuminated above it? Does this sound like Im getting the actual PCM track passed the correct way? I think Bob may have answered this for me already, but is using the DIRECT mode the way to listen to these tracks, rather than MULTICHANNEL? I perceived no loss of signal when switching between these two modes.

Also, in terms of the video processing abilities of this receiver.....I have 1080p going out from the Blu ray player into the receiver, and then the receiver's HDMI out going to the TV....am I losing any resolution doing this? Is the 1080 somehow being degraded because its going through the receiver? This receiver is supposed to pass whatever resolution you feed it via HDMI right through....but I just want to make sure.


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



ShnuggMac said:


> Hello Again Bob,
> 
> The reason that I had questioned you about what you posted was because you had suggested this:
> 
> ...


That was to ensure that the player does not do anything to the audio (in terms of bass management, etc) and that the only the AVR does. You may not have to do anything to the player since it should default to not doing bass management. But if you set the channels/speakers to SMALL in the player then you are asking it to do bass management which it should not do since your AVR is doing the bass management.


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



ShnuggMac said:


> but is using the DIRECT mode the way to listen to these tracks, rather than MULTICHANNEL? I perceived no loss of signal when switching between these two modes.


No loss of signal, but is the bass management being done correctly when in DIRECT mode? Please carefully read your Onkyo 605 user manual to find out exactly what the display of DIRECT mode means. I know what it means for a Yamaha AVR.


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



bobgpsr said:


> That was to ensure that the player does not do anything to the audio (in terms of bass management, etc) and that the only the AVR does. You may not have to do anything to the player since it should default to not doing bass management. But if you set the channels/speakers to SMALL in the player then you are asking it to do bass management which it should not do since your AVR is doing the bass management.


The question is this......because I am running everything through HDMI out on the player, should the player simply detect this automatically and not need any changes to the multi-channel speaker setup? Should it just automatically be ignored? Of course, in theory, a player should "know" when a "digital" signal is being used (coax, optical, HDMI) and ignore the internal speaker settings and distance delays because the receiver its connected to is doing that, but is that what is really going on?

See, I ask because something weird happens on this player when I fool around with its "Multichannel" and "2-Channel" speaker settings.....when I leave the player on MULTICHANNEL in this menu, the uncompressed PCM tracks from the Blu ray discs play back at the receiver as "PCM/HDMI/MULTICHANNEL" as you say is correct....however, if I switch the Blu ray player's speaker output settings to "2-Channel" then these PCM soundtracks are passed to the receiver in a strange fashion, allowing me to use the weird DSP modes on the receiver, such as "Theater Dimensional" and "All Channel Stereo" and such; when selecting MULTICHANNEL on the speaker output, the ONLY modes I can use on the Onkyo during playback of PCM tracks are the Direct and Multichannel....this whole thing sounds weird to me because according to the Panasonic's manual, leaving the player's speaker settings on "MULTICHANNEL" is only when you want the PLAYER to do the decoding and time delays, etc., and pass that to a receiver that CANNOT process speaker settings and such; the "2-CHANNEL" speaker setting in the player is supposed to be when a receiver connected to this unit CAN in fact decode soundtracks and do speaker calibrations and such, which of course, this Onkyo can....so my instinct was to leave the setting on 2-Channel but when I do that, it affects the audio output of these Blu ray PCM tracks.....something just doesnt make sense here....can you shed some light on this? :blink::blink::blink::blink:


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



bobgpsr said:


> No loss of signal, but is the bass management being done correctly when in DIRECT mode? Please carefully read your Onkyo 605 user manual to find out exactly what the display of DIRECT mode means. I know what it means for a Yamaha AVR.


According to the 605 manual, DIRECT means the signal is being passed exactly "as is"; I need to confirm if bass management and distance delays, etc. are being affected in this mode....

So if there is no loss of signal (and what I meant by that is that switching between MULTICHANNEL and DIRECT when playing these PCM tracks, it does not seem to get louder or lower in terms of volume output, nor does there seem to be any perceivable loss of "detail" or "punch") then what should the correct mode be for playing these PCM tracks off the Blu ray player and discs? Should the amp remain in Multichannel playback mode? What exactly could DIRECT be a benefit for -- as you say, those who have high end two channel systems with large speakers?


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

Lot to go through here...

Anyway, let the player output PCM over HDMI. That's perfectly okay and not worse or better than letting the receiver do it. It's still the original data. The only worry being as someone else mentioned making sure you don't try and use the player's bass management, which it may or may not apply to the PCM over HDMI signals.

The downgrade of DTS Master Audio to DTS, or Dolby TrueHD to Dolby Digital, is most likely because the player isn't equipped to process the higher-quality audio (not good enough hardware inside) or because they don't want you to get the higher-quality audio out the analog outputs (which it would most likely provide, if performing the processing) for stupid DRM reasons, or a combination of the two. You don't want your player to do this, so make sure your settings avoid this situation.

DIRECT mode is a setting on the receiver that tells it not to apply signal processing to the audio, which "as is" probably means no bass management. It doesn't have anything to do with volume, just bass management and the application of sound fields like JAZZ or THEATER or stuff like that. People might use this if they have a high-quality CD player outputting analog to the receiver, for example, and only want the receiver to act as the volume control.

The players don't upscale and apply good video filtering to SD content because it's more expensive to do that. It means putting in a more expensive chip, and software to use it. (They want you to spend $30 on an HD disc instead of $10 on a SD disc that gets made to look like HD anyway.) HD content, of course, needs no upscaling and less video filtering, although it can still benefit from video filtering to some degree.

There is no reason to buy a different Blu-Ray player. You could buy a very good SD player, and use that for your SD discs. You might be planning to upgrade your receiver later (although I think you just bought it also) for one that has a good video chip in it. Or you might be planning to upgrade your display, and could get one that has a good video chip in there. A separate video processor is an expensive alternative as well. You can view the Secrets DVD Player Benchmark Database, and according to it, the Samsun BD-P1200 does best among the HD players. It uses a Silicon Optix Reon HQV chip.


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## Scuba Diver (Sep 28, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

Welcome to the Shack. There are lots of great guys and minds to pick on here. With all this help you are sure to be a pro in no time.


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

*Anyway, let the player output PCM over HDMI.*

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me so in depth, that's first of all....I appreciate it. Let me reply to some of these issues a few at a time...

Above, you say let the player output PCM over HDMI -- but what exactly do you mean....the high def audio choices like Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD? In this Panasonic's DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT menu, there are choices for PCM or BITSTREAM for EVERY codec supported by this machine: Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, and DTS HD....right now, I have all of these set to BITSTREAM, but as I mentioned earlier, regular legacy Dolby Digital and DTS tracks are passed via BITSTREAM to the Onkyo receiver just fine (still over HDMI) where they are decoded by the receiver, and with the settings on BITSTREAM for the new surround codecs, what happens is the player extracts what seems like a core DTS or Dolby Digital mix from the Master Audio/TrueHD mixes...BUT, with the PCM settings made here, the tracks are sent to the receiver where the receiver displays "MULTICHANNEL" on the display....is this what you are suggesting to do? Whats the best way to hear the lossless soundtracks?

*That's perfectly okay and not worse or better than letting the receiver do it. It's still the original data. The only worry being as someone else mentioned making sure you don't try and use the player's bass management, which it may or may not apply to the PCM over HDMI signals.*

But I am not sure if the player's bass management and speaker distances, calibrations, etc. are being automatically ignored when Im running HDMI out....in other words, in the Panasonic's "SPEAKER OUTPUT" settings in the SETUP menu, there is a choice of "2 Channel" or "Multi Channel"....according to the manual, MULTI CHANNEL should be used when connected to a receiver which CANNOT make speaker adjustments and thus its made inside the player....2-CHANNEL should be selected when the unit IS connected to a receiver which can do calibration, etc, which mine is....when leaving this setting on MULTI CHANNEL, uncompressed PCM tracks from the Blu ray discs pass to the receiver and the display on front of the receiver says "MULTICHANNEL" and above it "HDMI/PCM/MULTICH", indicating to me the raw PCM track is passing through....HOWEVER, when I switch the Panasonic's speaker settings to 2-CHANNEL, these PCM tracks are somehow "tinkered with" in that suddenly the receiver is seeing a two-channel downmix and applying those weird DSP modes, which I dont believe is the correct way of listening to these soundtracks....BUT, my question is, WHY are these settings being affected AT ALL being that Im running EVERYTHING through a DIGITAL output, in this case straight HDMI????

*The downgrade of DTS Master Audio to DTS, or Dolby TrueHD to Dolby Digital, is most likely because the player isn't equipped to process the higher-quality audio (not good enough hardware inside) or because they don't want you to get the higher-quality audio out the analog outputs (which it would most likely provide, if performing the processing) for stupid DRM reasons, or a combination of the two.*

This downgrade ONLY occurs when I keep the high resolution audio settings on the player's menu set to BITSTREAM.....when I select PCM for Dolby Digital Plus/Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD, the player sends a PCM signal to the receiver, where it reads "MULTICHANNEL" on the display.....see, when those tracks are sent BITSTREAM, the receiver extracts some kind of "core" mix and sends it out as regular Dolby Digital or DTS....this player SUPPORTS and DECODES these formats (not DTS Master Audio), but it apparently does not send them BITSTREAM to a receiver....what should they be set on then?

*You don't want your player to do this, so make sure your settings avoid this situation.*

Dont want the player to do what exactly?

*DIRECT mode is a setting on the receiver that tells it not to apply signal processing to the audio, which "as is" probably means no bass management. It doesn't have anything to do with volume, just bass management and the application of sound fields like JAZZ or THEATER or stuff like that. People might use this if they have a high-quality CD player outputting analog to the receiver, for example, and only want the receiver to act as the volume control.*

So, this DIRECT setting shouldnt be used when playing back PCM tracks from the Blu ray player? An interesting note is that when playing these PCM tracks, and the receiver is on MULTICHANNEL mode, I cannot select those weird soundfields like All Channel Stereo or TV Logic; the only selections that can be made are STEREO I believe, and MULTICHANNEL or DIRECT....so by setting it to MULTICHANNEL, then my calibration and speaker settings and tone control, etc. will be recognized, correct? 

*The players don't upscale and apply good video filtering to SD content because it's more expensive to do that. It means putting in a more expensive chip, and software to use it. (They want you to spend $30 on an HD disc instead of $10 on a SD disc that gets made to look like HD anyway.) HD content, of course, needs no upscaling and less video filtering, although it can still benefit from video filtering to some degree.*

I thought this may have been the problem; of course, the studios and manufacturers want you to pop in a DVD and say "Wow, this looks like ****....lets buy the HD or Blu ray version!" I almost did that tonight.....was watching Superman Returns on DVD, and it looked absolutely HORRENDOUS upscaled by this player. There is massive macroblocking, shimmering, color bleeding and video noise during dark sequences; the player is set to send 1080p signals to my TV, but Im wondering if these regular DVDs wouldnt look better just running 480p out of HDMI. No matter what I do -- using the SOFT mode on the Panasonic and applying the Digital Noise Reduction circuit -- regular DVDs just look horrible. I also get a strange "steeped banding" when there are words and letters on the screen -- kind of like the jaggies that plague these players, but Im wondering if thats a fault of my TV.....

*There is no reason to buy a different Blu-Ray player. You could buy a very good SD player, and use that for your SD discs.*

And herein lies my next dilemma....we are considering doing that now, but I have a few questions....first of all, do you not think I should wait to buy a next generation Blu ray player that sends all the high resolution surround codecs via BITSTREAM AND supports DTS Master Audio so my Onkyo TX-SR605 can decode them? (I SPECIFICALLY bought the Onkyo to do this.) If I were going to go the standard DVD player route, can you recommend a really good one to match my 1080p set? Is it best to continue running 480p via component with a regular DVD player, or send a higher resolution through HDMI? 

*You might be planning to upgrade your receiver later (although I think you just bought it also) for one that has a good video chip in it.*

I JUST bought this Onkyo -- it's brand new -- so upgrading will not happen for awhile; I SPECIFICALLY bought it so it can decode the new HD audio formats, which I cannot do because the player wont send them out via BITSTREAM....but in terms of the video chip, do you think something is wrong here too in my hookup? Is the 1080p signal not flowing right from the player to the receiver to the TV? Shouldnt the 1080p just pass right through the receiver and out to the TV? 

*Or you might be planning to upgrade your display, and could get one that has a good video chip in there. A separate video processor is an expensive alternative as well.*

Again, we JUST bought this Sony TV, too, and spent 2,000 bucks on it....its a 50" rear projection SXRD, and I was told it was one of the better screens on the market....could it be this TV that is causing all these problems? I cant see it, but is it possible? I mean, the TV accepts and puts out 1080p, but can the processor inside really be that ******? 

*the Samsun BD-P1200 does best among the HD players. It uses a Silicon Optix Reon HQV chip.*

Jeez.....and this is after I dropped 600 bucks on this stupid Panasonic player....are you suggesting that this report indicates that the Samsung is best in terms of Blu ray quality AND upconverting the DVDs?

Thanks again, so much, for taking the time to reply and assist with this....looking forward to hearing back from you.


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



ShnuggMac said:


> ith the settings on BITSTREAM for the new surround codecs, what happens is the player extracts what seems like a core DTS or Dolby Digital mix from the Master Audio/TrueHD mixes...BUT, with the PCM settings made here, the tracks are sent to the receiver where the receiver displays "MULTICHANNEL" on the display....is this what you are suggesting to do? Whats the best way to hear the lossless soundtracks?


Use PCM, not BITSTREAM. As you've described it, BITSTREAM is outputting the lossy audio formats.



ShnuggMac said:


> But I am not sure if the player's bass management and speaker distances, calibrations, etc. are being automatically ignored when Im running HDMI out


Can you just make it so the player doesn't do anything? Don't set any distances (all zero or all the same), make all speakers large, etc.



ShnuggMac said:


> when I switch the Panasonic's speaker settings to 2-CHANNEL, these PCM tracks are somehow "tinkered with" in that suddenly the receiver is seeing a two-channel downmix


It seems choosing this is telling the player that you only have two speakers, so it is going to apply bass management and downmix to two channels. Don't use it.



ShnuggMac said:


> This downgrade ONLY occurs when I keep the high resolution audio settings on the player's menu set to BITSTREAM


That's correct. It has no need to downgrade if you are sending either PCM or the original signal (which does not appear to be supported on your player). So again, keep it on PCM.



ShnuggMac said:


> *You don't want your player to do this, so make sure your settings avoid this situation.*
> 
> Dont want the player to do what exactly?


Don't want it to convert things to the lossy formats, which BITSTREAM seems to be doing, so BITSTREAM is bad.



ShnuggMac said:


> So, this DIRECT setting shouldnt be used when playing back PCM tracks from the Blu ray player?


You probably should never use DIRECT in general. It's more of a setting that someone might use if they've got a super-expensive dedicated CD player or outboard DAC, and expensive full-range speakers for the left and right channel.



ShnuggMac said:


> so by setting it to MULTICHANNEL, then my calibration and speaker settings and tone control, etc. will be recognized, correct?


They should, that is correct.



ShnuggMac said:


> I also get a strange "steeped banding" when there are words and letters on the screen -- kind of like the jaggies that plague these players, but Im wondering if thats a fault of my TV.....


Not sure what that is, maybe a picture would help.



ShnuggMac said:


> first of all, do you not think I should wait to buy a next generation Blu ray player that sends all the high resolution surround codecs via BITSTREAM AND supports DTS Master Audio so my Onkyo TX-SR605 can decode them? (I SPECIFICALLY bought the Onkyo to do this.)


There shouldn't be any sound improvement if you do this, unless the Onkyo is not applying bass management when set to MULTICHANNEL and getting PCM over HDMI, but I doubt that. Really, the only thing the Onkyo needs to do is set the subwoofer crossover and adjust the volume, then convert the signal to analog. It's not as though it will turn DTS Master Audio into a different, better PCM signal (at least it shouldn't be).



ShnuggMac said:


> If I were going to go the standard DVD player route, can you recommend a really good one to match my 1080p set? Is it best to continue running 480p via component with a regular DVD player, or send a higher resolution through HDMI?


The best choice that doesn't cost a lot are the OPPO Digital players which you can order online. But they use the older Faroudja chipset. It's what I use. But I'm waiting on buying a newer player for now. You can get more expensive players, but they're a lot more expensive, like the flagship Denon. They do use the newer chipsets, but I'm not sure most people would notice that big a difference. You would want the SD DVD player to upscale and apply video filters, in this case, since you bought it for that chip.



ShnuggMac said:


> but in terms of the video chip, do you think something is wrong here too in my hookup? Is the 1080p signal not flowing right from the player to the receiver to the TV?


No, I think you've got everything wired up correctly.



ShnuggMac said:


> could it be this TV that is causing all these problems? I cant see it, but is it possible? I mean, the TV accepts and puts out 1080p, but can the processor inside really be that ******?


I'm guessing you got a 50" BRAVIA SXRD display. Those are good displays. It won't be as good at video processing as one of the more expensive chipsets, but it should be good. In fact, you really should try outputting 480i or 480p from the player and see how that looks. The 480i might look better than 480p signal too.



ShnuggMac said:


> *the Samsun BD-P1200 does best among the HD players. It uses a Silicon Optix Reon HQV chip.*
> 
> Jeez.....and this is after I dropped 600 bucks on this stupid Panasonic player....are you suggesting that this report indicates that the Samsung is best in terms of Blu ray quality AND upconverting the DVDs?


Not in terms of Blu-Ray quality, but on the standard SD benchmark tests that Secrets does, it scores highest. I don't know which Panasonic player you have, so I don't know if anyone has measured it. Secrets hasn't posted a review of the BD-P1200 yet (and apparently it doesn't support Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD/Master Audio) so no idea how it would do on Blu-Ray playback or usability, etc. It may only be good at SD playback, which would make it an expensive SD player. 

I wouldn't worry about your purchase being a mistake. There might also be something else going on, because even a decent SD DVD player shouldn't look awful, but I guess it looks awful to you because you're describing macroblocking and jaggies and banding, etc. Try the 480i output and see how that goes, then 480p.


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

*Use PCM, not BITSTREAM. As you've described it, BITSTREAM is outputting the lossy audio formats.*

So, in the player's DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT settings, I should leave the legacy codecs (Dolby Digital and DTS) to BITSTREAM and change the hi res codecs to PCM? The Dolby and DTS standard tracks seem to pass fine over HDMI from this player to the receiver. You know, though, it's weird....these settings, under the Panasonic's SETUP menu, I was under the impression were ONLY for the COAX and OPTICAL digital outputs -- NOT HDMI....but yet in these menus are settings for soundtracks that can ONLY be sent by HDMI, such as Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD...so why are they under "DIGITAL AUDIO OUT" in the player's settings? In terms of putting out the lossy formats, is what I described what is happening when I choose one of these soundtracks off the discs, such as TrueHD or DTS HD and the "core" Dolby or DTS mix is being shown at the receiver actually going on?

*Can you just make it so the player doesn't do anything? Don't set any distances (all zero or all the same), make all speakers large, etc.*

Yes, I can set all these to zero, but I am wondering why the option exists at all to mess with these settings when the player is SEEING a digital feed via HDMI....why is it allowing me to mess with the speaker settings at all then? Perhaps I can move these numbers around, but they will have no affect BECAUSE I am running it digitally to the receiver via HDMI....

*It seems choosing this is telling the player that you only have two speakers, so it is going to apply bass management and downmix to two channels. Don't use it.*

Yes, but again, something is not right here because according to the player's manual, you should select "2-CHANNEL" when connecting to a receiver that CAN decode the formats and perform calibration, distances, etc, which mine can, of course....by using MULTI CHANNEL, the manual claims this should be used for when the PLAYER is doing all the calibrations, timing, etc....I dont understand what is going on here. For regular Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks from standard DVDs, the bitstream signal is being passed over HDMI and decoded at the Onkyo...for the hi res codecs, like we discussed, the player will be internally handling them, so what exactly does this setting on the player (2 CHANNEL or MULTI CHANNEL) control? 

*That's correct. It has no need to downgrade if you are sending either PCM or the original signal (which does not appear to be supported on your player). So again, keep it on PCM.*

Indeed, I found out AFTER the purchase of this deck that it does not send the new formats via bitstream...so let me get this straight: by setting the audio output to PCM for the hi res audio codecs, the ACTUAL hi res signal is being fed to the receiver, just in a PCM mode? And here is another issue thats bothering me about this: if this player does not send the new codecs via BITSTREAM, then why on Earth are there CHOICES in the audio output menu for PCM or BITSTREAM for these soundtracks??? Why would have Panasonic put that there? Incase of an upgrade? 

*Don't want it to convert things to the lossy formats, which BITSTREAM seems to be doing, so BITSTREAM is bad.*

What exactly, if I may ask, is so "bad" in comparison with the legacy lossy formats? We simply want the REAL lossless sound, is that the idea? 

*You probably should never use DIRECT in general. It's more of a setting that someone might use if they've got a super-expensive dedicated CD player or outboard DAC, and expensive full-range speakers for the left and right channel.*

Okay; I shall leave DIRECT off, but I am just so curious as to why there was no perceivable change in audio quality when I switched between this and MULTICHANNEL when playing PCM tracks....

*They should, that is correct.*

So, the front of the Onkyo should read "MULTICH" in terms of the listening mode, and then the illuminated modes above it should read "PCM/HDMI/MULTICH"....this is running correctly then?

*Not sure what that is, maybe a picture would help.*

Hmmmm....for an example, when the beginning of a film is playing and the cast and such are on the screen in letters, the letters appear to have jagged, sharp, steeped edges to them, like vertical creases running down the screen....I had originally chucked this up to the viewing distance we're at, because we're pretty close, sitting six or so feet away from a 50" set, but I dont know....these vertical "scan lines" can be seen in other images too if you look closely, but it is only when Im upconverting regular DVDs in 1080p, so something must be up with this player's processor....

*There shouldn't be any sound improvement if you do this, unless the Onkyo is not applying bass management when set to MULTICHANNEL and getting PCM over HDMI, but I doubt that. Really, the only thing the Onkyo needs to do is set the subwoofer crossover and adjust the volume, then convert the signal to analog. It's not as though it will turn DTS Master Audio into a different, better PCM signal (at least it shouldn't be).*

Okay, I understand you; it's just frustrating because I SPECIFICALLY bought this receiver to decode the new hi res formats like DVD did with optical and coax connections, not knowing that this player did not send the tracks via bitstream....I am not the only one who feels this way about the receivers, apparently, because if you do a search online you will see other folks who bought these new receivers with HDMI 1.3 and dissapointed because their "DTS MASTER AUDIO" and "DOLBY TRUEHD" lights are not illuminating on the front panels! I guess I will just have to wait for the next generation players to come out if I want the bitstreaming to happen....

Here is another question: as we discussed above, the Speaker Settings for the Blu ray player seem to behave correctly when they're set to "MULTI CHANNEL," but then why is it better to send the high res audio codecs via PCM, which suggests they are being sent via two channels? In other words, if the player should NOT be set for 2 CHANNEL operation in the speaker setup, then how are the high res PCM tracks being sent if THEY are set to output 2 channel PCM? Or is the PCM mix not 2 channel on these discs, being passed to the receivers?

And, on the topic of sub crossover, in my receiver's speaker configuration menu, there are selections to adjust each speaker's crossover frequency in the system -- not just "Large" or "Small" simple selections like there used to be in receivers....I am running Polk bookshelves for the fronts and rear, so I wanted the sub to handle the low bass, hence I left every speaker in the system on "80Hz," to send all bass below that from each speaker to the sub.....should this be changed or does it sound right for bookshelves? 

*The best choice that doesn't cost a lot are the OPPO Digital players which you can order online. But they use the older Faroudja chipset. It's what I use. But I'm waiting on buying a newer player for now. You can get more expensive players, but they're a lot more expensive, like the flagship Denon. They do use the newer chipsets, but I'm not sure most people would notice that big a difference. You would want the SD DVD player to upscale and apply video filters, in this case, since you bought it for that chip.*

Thank you for your advice; I had thought the OPPO players were going to be suggested, as I am hearing all about them everywhere for the price....and I know those flagship Denons are real beauties but are they expensive! So, to summarize, I am looking for, lets say, an Oppo player which upscales the resolution to 1080p and adds digital noise filters and such....yes? Can you supply a link to a model that may work for my purposes? I am a little weary of doing more upconverting to 1080p because of the performance I have been getting with this player I have now and my display, but hopefully, these standalone Oppo players should provide better upscaling than the Blu ray player, yes? 

*No, I think you've got everything wired up correctly.*

I only ask because I am wondering what could be the weak link in the chain...perhaps this Onkyo was doing something to the 1080p signal; when sending it to the TV....I have always been in the opinion that every source component should go as direct as possible to another source -- component DIRECTLY to the TV, DIGITAL AUDIO OUT DIRECTLY to a receiver, etc....so are we sure this receiver is not doing anything to degrade this 1080p output? The setup, once again, is like this: the Blu ray player is feeding its HDMI OUT to the receiver's HDMI 1 IN, and then the receiver's HDMI OUT is going to my Sony display's HDMI input....this should allow for clean 1080p passthrough, right? 

*I'm guessing you got a 50" BRAVIA SXRD display. Those are good displays. It won't be as good at video processing as one of the more expensive chipsets, but it should be good. In fact, you really should try outputting 480i or 480p from the player and see how that looks. The 480i might look better than 480p signal too.*

Actually, I have a 50" SXRD rear projection, not a BRAVIA, but it does accept and output 1080p...in terms of switching the resolutions as you suggested, I have switched regular DVDs to 480p on the Panasonic player, and every resolution above it, all the way to 1080, and the picture really doesnt change all that much --- there is a bit of a smoother look at these lower resolutions, but nothing that blows me off my couch and eliminates all the video noise....and I have some questions here for you on this as well....why would 480i look better than 480p? And I dont even have a 480i setting on this player via HDMI, so that point I guess is moot....the only selections through HDMI are 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p....but I dont understand why if the whole point of upconversion is to bring the DVDs to a better resolution using the 1080p setting would yield such poor results....can you explain why this could happen? Is it because at 1080p, the player is pretty much amplifying all the junk in a DVD transfer, and you see it all? And I dont want to have to go into this menu setting every time I watch either a Blu ray disc or DVD, and change it back and forth between 480p and 1080p, depending on the disc....jeez....

*Not in terms of Blu-Ray quality, but on the standard SD benchmark tests that Secrets does, it scores highest. I don't know which Panasonic player you have, so I don't know if anyone has measured it. Secrets hasn't posted a review of the BD-P1200 yet (and apparently it doesn't support Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD/Master Audio) so no idea how it would do on Blu-Ray playback or usability, etc. It may only be good at SD playback, which would make it an expensive SD player. *

The Samsung 1400 is out, too, which I believe had rumors of supporting every codec AND DTS Master Audio, and passing them via bitstream, but, as always, I think this may have been a premature report. I have the second-generation Panasonic Blu ray player, with the fold-down front flap for disc loading. I guess I will just hold off on getting a new Blu ray deck until all these issues are shaken out.....

*I wouldn't worry about your purchase being a mistake. There might also be something else going on, because even a decent SD DVD player shouldn't look awful, but I guess it looks awful to you because you're describing macroblocking and jaggies and banding, etc. Try the 480i output and see how that goes, then 480p.*

Thank you for all your help; as I described above, indeed I am getting horrible macroblocking, distortion, grain and other artifacts when playing back standard DVDs, and changing the setting to resolutions below 1080p really doesnt help (and my player does not offer a 480i setting via HDMI)...I dont really understand why dropping to a resolution BELOW 1080p would be a "better thing to do" to a video signal, but......:coocoo::coocoo::hissyfit::hissyfit::wits-end::wits-end::wits-end:


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



ShnuggMac said:


> So, in the player's DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT settings, I should leave the legacy codecs (Dolby Digital and DTS) to BITSTREAM and change the hi res codecs to PCM?


Or just leave it on PCM for both. I don't see any reason why the legacy codecs would be bad that way, since you're using HDMI.



ShnuggMac said:


> but yet in these menus are settings for soundtracks that can ONLY be sent by HDMI, such as Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD...so why are they under "DIGITAL AUDIO OUT" in the player's settings?


::shrug:: HDMI audio is also digital audio.



ShnuggMac said:


> In terms of putting out the lossy formats, is what I described what is happening when I choose one of these soundtracks off the discs, such as TrueHD or DTS HD and the "core" Dolby or DTS mix is being shown at the receiver actually going on?


Not sure what you're saying here, but yes, you pick Dolby TrueHD and it is converting it to a lossy Dolby Digital form.



ShnuggMac said:


> *Can you just make it so the player doesn't do anything? Don't set any distances (all zero or all the same), make all speakers large, etc.*
> 
> Yes, I can set all these to zero, but I am wondering why the option exists at all to mess with these settings when the player is SEEING a digital feed via HDMI....why is it allowing me to mess with the speaker settings at all then? Perhaps I can move these numbers around, but they will have no affect BECAUSE I am running it digitally to the receiver via HDMI....


They would have an effect if you tried to use your player to do any sort of bass management or audio processing.



ShnuggMac said:


> Yes, but again, something is not right here because according to the player's manual, you should select "2-CHANNEL" when connecting to a receiver that CAN decode the formats and perform calibration, distances, etc, which mine can, of course....by using MULTI CHANNEL, the manual claims this should be used for when the PLAYER is doing all the calibrations, timing, etc....I dont understand what is going on here.


I'm not really sure either. It may only refer to the analog outputs, in your player's menu.



ShnuggMac said:


> For regular Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks from standard DVDs, the bitstream signal is being passed over HDMI and decoded at the Onkyo...for the hi res codecs, like we discussed, the player will be internally handling them, so what exactly does this setting on the player (2 CHANNEL or MULTI CHANNEL) control?


Not sure....



ShnuggMac said:


> so let me get this straight: by setting the audio output to PCM for the hi res audio codecs, the ACTUAL hi res signal is being fed to the receiver, just in a PCM mode?


Correct.



ShnuggMac said:


> And here is another issue thats bothering me about this: if this player does not send the new codecs via BITSTREAM, then why on Earth are there CHOICES in the audio output menu for PCM or BITSTREAM for these soundtracks?


Because you could send the legacy codecs as the bitstream, instead of PCM.



ShnuggMac said:


> What exactly, if I may ask, is so "bad" in comparison with the legacy lossy formats? We simply want the REAL lossless sound, is that the idea?


Correct.



ShnuggMac said:


> Okay; I shall leave DIRECT off, but I am just so curious as to why there was no perceivable change in audio quality when I switched between this and MULTICHANNEL when playing PCM tracks....


With DIRECT on, a stereo signal from a CD player should result in nothing going to the subwoofer. A multichannel signal from the DVD player would result in additional bass coming from your speakers instead of the subwoofer (you want it from the subwoofer), unless the DVD player was already performing bass management. You'd have to figure out what was going on there when you tried.



ShnuggMac said:


> So, the front of the Onkyo should read "MULTICH" in terms of the listening mode, and then the illuminated modes above it should read "PCM/HDMI/MULTICH"....this is running correctly then?


I'm not exactly sure what is supposed to be on the display, but I think that's right from what you've said before.



ShnuggMac said:


> Hmmmm....for an example, when the beginning of a film is playing and the cast and such are on the screen in letters, the letters appear to have jagged, sharp, steeped edges to them, like vertical creases running down the screen.


Try subtitles from a different disc. What subtitles look like are defined by the disc. Mess ups in the drawing of the subtitles would be a result of the player. Mess ups by the TV would be apparent on everything, not just subtitles.



ShnuggMac said:


> the Speaker Settings for the Blu ray player seem to behave correctly when they're set to "MULTI CHANNEL," but then why is it better to send the high res audio codecs via PCM, which suggests they are being sent via two channels?


PCM doesn't mean 2-channel. PCM is an audio encoding format.



ShnuggMac said:


> in my receiver's speaker configuration menu...I left every speaker in the system on "80Hz," to send all bass below that from each speaker to the sub.....should this be changed or does it sound right for bookshelves?


Ideally you should perform measurements for each speaker and identify the correct crossover point for your specific speakers, their placement, and your room. But making everything 80Hz is generally a safe bet.



ShnuggMac said:


> Thank you for your advice; I had thought the OPPO players were going to be suggested, as I am hearing all about them everywhere for the price....and I know those flagship Denons are real beauties but are they expensive! So, to summarize, I am looking for, lets say, an Oppo player which upscales the resolution to 1080p and adds digital noise filters and such....yes? Can you supply a link to a model that may work for my purposes? I am a little weary of doing more upconverting to 1080p because of the performance I have been getting with this player I have now and my display, but hopefully, these standalone Oppo players should provide better upscaling than the Blu ray player, yes?


Yes, hopefully they should. I haven't been disappointed with SD playback on my OPPO. Although I do know that things should look better with an HQV chip or something like that. You want the DV-981HD player.



ShnuggMac said:


> perhaps this Onkyo was doing something to the 1080p signal; when sending it to the TV


Doubtful. It just needs to act as a video switcher; clean signal like you're saying.

But I just saw your unit includes a Faroudja chip in it.... Maybe you don't need the OPPO, if you can figure out how to make it use the chip. Below...



ShnuggMac said:


> Actually, I have a 50" SXRD rear projection, not a BRAVIA, but it does accept and output 1080p...in terms of switching the resolutions as you suggested, I have switched regular DVDs to 480p on the Panasonic player, and every resolution above it, all the way to 1080, and the picture really doesnt change all that much --- there is a bit of a smoother look at these lower resolutions, but nothing that blows me off my couch and eliminates all the video noise....and I have some questions here for you on this as well....why would 480i look better than 480p? And I dont even have a 480i setting on this player via HDMI, so that point I guess is moot....the only selections through HDMI are 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p....but I dont understand why if the whole point of upconversion is to bring the DVDs to a better resolution using the 1080p setting would yield such poor results....can you explain why this could happen?


480i might look better than 480p because someone has to do the deinterlacing. And that can be done well, or poorly. And thus, upconversion can be done well, or done poorly.



ShnuggMac said:


> Is it because at 1080p, the player is pretty much amplifying all the junk in a DVD transfer, and you see it all? And I dont want to have to go into this menu setting every time I watch either a Blu ray disc or DVD, and change it back and forth between 480p and 1080p, depending on the disc....jeez....


Maybe you're expecting too much from playback of DVDs? It sounds like your gear has good stuff in it. You will not be able to make SD DVDs look as good as HD DVDs, no matter what processing you do on it. Would it be possible to find someone local that can actually check things out for you?



ShnuggMac said:


> I dont really understand why dropping to a resolution BELOW 1080p would be a "better thing to do" to a video signal, but......:coocoo::coocoo::hissyfit::hissyfit::wits-end::wits-end::wits-end:


Only because then someone else other than the player would be doing the deinterlacing, or upscaling, or applying video filters.

Would you be able to post photos of examples of what you see that is bad?


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

*Or just leave it on PCM for both. I don't see any reason why the legacy codecs would be bad that way, since you're using HDMI.*

Okay; well, because I want the receiver -- and always have since entering this hobby -- to do the decoding work (I just prefer to see the "Dolby D" and "DTS" lights on the display!) I will keep the legacy codecs on BITSTREAM and the others to PCM...so, just once more so I understand this (and thank you so much for your assistance with this, indeed): it is BETTER to have these advanced codecs (Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD) sent via PCM from the player because if set to BITSTREAM, which this player cannot pass on these new codecs, the so-called downmixed "core" Dolby Digital and DTS mixes are extracted from the soundtrack and thats not what we want....we want the full resolution of the lossless audio, correct? 

*::shrug:: HDMI audio is also digital audio.*

Oh....okay, so this must be why the player is seeing the HDMI out jack as DIGITAL, but this simply was not explained to me the correct way; on Home Theater Forum, a member enlightened me that the DIGITAL AUDIO OUT of this Panasonic player dictated the COAXIAL and OPTICAL out jacks ONLY -- it had nothing to do with HDMI, which didnt make sense to me because the audio WAS being affected by my changing the selections there....

*Not sure what you're saying here, but yes, you pick Dolby TrueHD and it is converting it to a lossy Dolby Digital form.*

Thats pretty much what I wanted to know....that if I have the player's audio output selection set to BITSTREAM for these high definition codecs, is what I am hearing the actual downmixed and downrezed lossy Dolby Digital and DTS core....

*They would have an effect if you tried to use your player to do any sort of bass management or audio processing.*

Meaning what? I dont understand, as of yet anyway, why the SPEAKER SETTINGS on this Blu ray player would be affected by anything connected to it other than the ANALOG OUT jacks....I had thought that the speaker distances, calibrations, delays, etc. set at the PLAYER would only work when running from the 7.1 ANALOG OUTS, not the coax, optical or HDMI out....so, why would any bass management be affected at all if NOTHING is connected to the ANALOG OUTS and there is straight HDMI running? The ONLY connection I have made is HDMI from this player -- NOTHING else.

*I'm not really sure either. It may only refer to the analog outputs, in your player's menu.*

Okay, thats what I was discussing above....

*Because you could send the legacy codecs as the bitstream, instead of PCM.*

No, but what I wanted to know was why are there selections here for BITSTREAM for the HIGH DEFINITION CODECS like Dolby Digital Plus, TrueHD, and DTS HD, when the machine itself CANNOT PASS those bitstream signals.....follow? Why did they bother putting any selections for bitstream at all for the NEXT GENERATION CODECS when they cant be passed this way? 

*With DIRECT on, a stereo signal from a CD player should result in nothing going to the subwoofer. A multichannel signal from the DVD player would result in additional bass coming from your speakers instead of the subwoofer (you want it from the subwoofer), unless the DVD player was already performing bass management. You'd have to figure out what was going on there when you tried.*

Oh no....now Im a bit confused....I understand that DIRECT would feed nothing to the subwoofer for high end audio applications and such, but I am concerned now that by using the MULTICHANNEL listening mode, additional bass is coming from the bookshelf Polks instead of the sub, which I dont want.....I was under the impression that by simply playing back these uncompressed PCM audio tracks from Blu ray discs the receiver sees the direct multichannel signal and plays it back as is -- calibration levels in the receiver being recognized as it always would -- and now I am not so sure this is happening...

*I'm not exactly sure what is supposed to be on the display, but I think that's right from what you've said before.*

Just out of curiosity, what does the unit you're running display when doing these multichannel mixes? I believe the only way for the Onkyos to display the listening mode when doing PCM is for the screen to read "MULTICH"....

*Try subtitles from a different disc. What subtitles look like are defined by the disc. Mess ups in the drawing of the subtitles would be a result of the player. Mess ups by the TV would be apparent on everything, not just subtitles.*

These abnormalities happen JUST when upconverting regular DVDs, and they are notable MOSTLY on words on the screen, but if you look closely, you can see these vertical jagged lines running through faces and other onscreen action -- again, this could be because of our viewing distance, which is only six feet from a 50" screen....

*PCM doesn't mean 2-channel. PCM is an audio encoding format.*

Ahh, okay, this clears some stuff up; the manual, however, says by selecting "PCM" for these high resolution audio codecs that the "2-channel PCM signal is sent from the player...." which confused me. This sounds like an incorrect functioning, doesnt it? So, what you are saying above is that if the player's speaker settings are set to Multi Channel it still should be transmitting the multichannel PCM signal from these Blu ray discs? This whole thing with this player is driving me nuts; Panasonic seems to have made everything so complicated. 

See, I just do not understand this, and I think you may have already addressed this by saying you were not sure.....WHY, if there is NOTHING connected to the player's ANALOG OUTPUTS in the rear, is audio being affected at all when going into the "Speaker Settings" menu on the player and flipping between 2 Channel and Multi Channel? The manual makes you believe that you should select 2 Channel output when connected to equipment that CAN decode formats and do speaker calibrations, etc....and that by selecting MULTI CHANNEL output, you are instructing the PLAYER to do all internal work like this....but the thing is, this player in my setup is being connected by HDMI ONLY (digital) to a receiver that can do decoding and calibration mode, so wouldnt you assume, according to the manual, that this speaker setting should be on 2 CHANNEL? Yet, 2 CHANNEL does not work for my purposes because then I cannot hear these multichannel PCM mixes from the discs in a correct fashion; by keeping the player on 2 CHANNEL output, it makes my receiver ignore its internal multichannel mode and instead allows me to apply those weird DSP modes like All Channel Stereo, etc, which I KNOW is the wrong way to listen to these tracks....what is going on here?

*Ideally you should perform measurements for each speaker and identify the correct crossover point for your specific speakers, their placement, and your room. But making everything 80Hz is generally a safe bet.*

Okay; thats what I thought. I'll leave it at 80Hz for now....and what about the setting for the sub's low pass filter? I have that set at 80Hz too....the receiver's default is 120, I believe....any suggestions? This was supposed to be for subwoofer feedback hum, but Im not experiencing any of that....

*Yes, hopefully they should. I haven't been disappointed with SD playback on my OPPO. Although I do know that things should look better with an HQV chip or something like that. You want the DV-981HD player.*

This player has that chip in it? And would the best way to connect this Oppo player to my Sony display be through HDMI as well? 

*Doubtful. It just needs to act as a video switcher; clean signal like you're saying.*

Hmmmm....what I thought, but Im just trying to see where some signal would be degraded for any reason....should I assume that this Onkyo is indeed doing 1080p in, 1080p out with no problems? 

*But I just saw your unit includes a Faroudja chip in it.... Maybe you don't need the OPPO, if you can figure out how to make it use the chip. Below...*

Which unit has this chip -- my Panasonic player or the Sony TV?

*480i might look better than 480p because someone has to do the deinterlacing. And that can be done well, or poorly. And thus, upconversion can be done well, or done poorly.*

Well, like I said, switching to the lower resolutions on the player's HDMI resolution output menu doesnt really make the DVDs look all that much better; there is still a great amount of soft detail and grain and such, but bringing it to 1080p makes the really badly mastered DVDs look even worse....I mean, I couldnt even watch titles like Superman Returns or Batman Begins upconverted because some darker scenes were riddled with video noise, macroblocking and artifacts....they looked worse than they ever did watching them in 480p on my $99 Panasonic DVD player from my previous system....

*Maybe you're expecting too much from playback of DVDs? It sounds like your gear has good stuff in it. You will not be able to make SD DVDs look as good as HD DVDs, no matter what processing you do on it. Would it be possible to find someone local that can actually check things out for you?*

No, absolutely not....this is not what is happening....I am fully aware of the fact that standard def DVDs will never look as good as HD discs; of course, you're dealing with two fundamentally different resolutions! The thing is, while I am in no way shape or form expecting too much from standard DVDs, these are simply unwatchable at times on this player depending on the disc....they look worse, as I said above, than when I watched them on a $100 Panasonic DVD player previously....and yet these are supposed to be "upscaled" to 1080p.....


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



ShnuggMac said:


> * these are simply unwatchable at times on this player depending on the disc....they look worse, as I said above, than when I watched them on a $100 Panasonic DVD player previously....and yet these are supposed to be "upscaled" to 1080p.....*


*

This statement seems strange to me. I would suspect a problem somewhere, either with the Panasonic DVD player or the Sony TV. I upconvert using a Sony DVP-NS70H DVD player connected to a Sony Bravia 40 inch LCD TV. I have no ""depending on the disc"" issues. They are all excellent quality. I suggest you take a disc that looks bad on your system, go back to the dealer where you bought the DVD player, and try the disc there on the same model player to see if the results are the same. You are obviously not happy with the results you are getting. If I were you I would be going through a process of elimination until the problem can be identified, whether it is the DVD player, the Sony TV, or maybe your expectations are just too high. Just my 2 cents.*


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



ShnuggMac said:


> it is BETTER to have these advanced codecs (Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD) sent via PCM from the player because if set to BITSTREAM, which this player cannot pass on these new codecs, the so-called downmixed "core" Dolby Digital and DTS mixes are extracted from the soundtrack and thats not what we want....we want the full resolution of the lossless audio, correct?


Correct.



ShnuggMac said:


> on Home Theater Forum, a member enlightened me that the DIGITAL AUDIO OUT of this Panasonic player dictated the COAXIAL and OPTICAL out jacks ONLY -- it had nothing to do with HDMI, which didnt make sense to me because the audio WAS being affected by my changing the selections there....


Well, that's usually what is meant, because before audio over HDMI, digital meant coax or optical, and analog meant the multichannel pre-outs. That interpretation is also sort of how I would think of it, but that's not really correct anymore, I suppose, with HDMI.



ShnuggMac said:


> I dont understand, as of yet anyway, why the SPEAKER SETTINGS on this Blu ray player would be affected by anything connected to it other than the ANALOG OUT jacks


Well, that's what I would think too. But technically if the original encoded audio is converted to PCM, the player could bother to apply bass management and distance delays. It just seems like a weird thing if that's what's happening, so I would doubt that it is. But you could easily check this.



ShnuggMac said:


> No, but what I wanted to know was why are there selections here for BITSTREAM for the HIGH DEFINITION CODECS like Dolby Digital Plus, TrueHD, and DTS HD, when the machine itself CANNOT PASS those bitstream signals.....follow? Why did they bother putting any selections for bitstream at all for the NEXT GENERATION CODECS when they cant be passed this way?


Beat's me.  There's lots of "stupidness" with the HD players these days, and the only non-stupid players seem to be the super expensive ones. At least you didn't pick up one of the $200 players, or earlier first-generation players, because then even less stuff would be supported.



ShnuggMac said:


> I am concerned now that by using the MULTICHANNEL listening mode, additional bass is coming from the bookshelf Polks instead of the sub, which I dont want.....I was under the impression that by simply playing back these uncompressed PCM audio tracks from Blu ray discs the receiver sees the direct multichannel signal and plays it back as is


If you are not using DIRECT, I would expect bass management to be applied. In my experience, MULTICHANNEL meant that the audio was coming in over the multichannel input, and all the set up sound processing would be applied. Didn't imply anything else. But again, you could double check to make sure.



ShnuggMac said:


> Just out of curiosity, what does the unit you're running display when doing these multichannel mixes? I believe the only way for the Onkyos to display the listening mode when doing PCM is for the screen to read "MULTICH"....


I don't have an HDMI audio processor. I could go into details, but basically I'm waiting for the price points to go down, everything to be fully supported, and my fair use rights to be possible without question. I am only sending through optical the original Dolby Digital, DTS, or 2-channel PCM audio, and my display doesn't say anything except DVD because that's the label of the optical input.



ShnuggMac said:


> These abnormalities happen JUST when upconverting regular DVDs, and they are notable MOSTLY on words on the screen, but if you look closely, you can see these vertical jagged lines running through faces and other onscreen action -- again, this could be because of our viewing distance, which is only six feet from a 50" screen....


Six feet for a 50" screen is fine-ish. I sit about 10-11' away from a 92" screen. Vertical jagged lines sounds weird; vertical by definition shouldn't have any jaggies. Pictures would be really helpful. You could always try a different display or get a friend to bring over a different player.



ShnuggMac said:


> the manual, however, says by selecting "PCM" for these high resolution audio codecs that the "2-channel PCM signal is sent from the player...." which confused me. This sounds like an incorrect functioning, doesnt it?


Maybe. I don't have the context of that statement in the manul...and again, you can verify yourself by seeing if there is sound coming out of the center and surrounds when you do this.



ShnuggMac said:


> So, what you are saying above is that if the player's speaker settings are set to Multi Channel it still should be transmitting the multichannel PCM signal from these Blu ray discs?


I would assume so, and it might downmix to 2-channel PCM over HDMI if you tell the player you only have two speakers. You should verify yourself.



ShnuggMac said:


> WHY, if there is NOTHING connected to the player's ANALOG OUTPUTS in the rear, is audio being affected at all when going into the "Speaker Settings" menu on the player and flipping between 2 Channel and Multi Channel?


I would only expect the speaker settings to affect the HDMI audio when it is sending PCM and not the original encoded format. Why? Because PCM means the player is decoding the audio.



ShnuggMac said:


> The manual makes you believe that you should select 2 Channel output when connected to equipment that CAN decode formats and do speaker calibrations, etc....and that by selecting MULTI CHANNEL output, you are instructing the PLAYER to do all internal work like this....but the thing is, this player in my setup is being connected by HDMI ONLY (digital) to a receiver that can do decoding and calibration mode, so wouldnt you assume, according to the manual, that this speaker setting should be on 2 CHANNEL?


I think you're reading the manual too complicated, or the manual is stupid. Just make sure you're getting all channels of PCM into your receiver, with no bass management or distance delay applied, and don't worry about anything else. Do whatever works, not whatever the manual says.



ShnuggMac said:


> what about the setting for the sub's low pass filter? I have that set at 80Hz too....the receiver's default is 120, I believe....any suggestions?


Your receiver should not have a low pass filter for the subwoofer output. The subwoofer's low pass filter should be turned off, or set as high as possible, otherwise you're putting a second low pass filter onto the already crossed-over signal coming from the receiver.



ShnuggMac said:


> This player has that chip in it? And would the best way to connect this Oppo player to my Sony display be through HDMI as well?


The OPPO has the Faroudja chip. You can find all those details on the OPPO web site. You would connect it via HDMI, yes, as you can see on the web site.



ShnuggMac said:


> should I assume that this Onkyo is indeed doing 1080p in, 1080p out with no problems?


You could check your video processing settings.



ShnuggMac said:


> Which unit has this chip -- my Panasonic player or the Sony TV?


Your Onkyo receiver. It should have a label on the front or something that says as much.



ShnuggMac said:


> Well, like I said, switching to the lower resolutions on the player's HDMI resolution output menu doesnt really make the DVDs look all that much better; there is still a great amount of soft detail and grain and such, but bringing it to 1080p makes the really badly mastered DVDs look even worse


Well, that right there says that the player's doing a worse job than either the TV or the receiver, whichever one ends up doing the work. In other words, you've said right there that choosing 480p looks better than 1080p from your player.


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



Mike P. said:


> This statement seems strange to me. I would suspect a problem somewhere, either with the Panasonic DVD player or the Sony TV. I upconvert using a Sony DVP-NS70H DVD player connected to a Sony Bravia 40 inch LCD TV. I have no ""depending on the disc"" issues. They are all excellent quality. I suggest you take a disc that looks bad on your system, go back to the dealer where you bought the DVD player, and try the disc there on the same model player to see if the results are the same. You are obviously not happy with the results you are getting. If I were you I would be going through a process of elimination until the problem can be identified, whether it is the DVD player, the Sony TV, or maybe your expectations are just too high. Just my 2 cents.


Mike,

While I appreciate, fully, your input here in this topic and your suggestions, let me try to explain to you why it may seem "strange," this dilemma of mine...

While you are upconverting via a Sony standard DVD deck, I am doing this through a Panasonic Blu ray player, specifically designed to play high definition discs with standard DVD as more of an afterthought -- there must be, it is clear, something going on with my player's video processor for upscaling the regular DVDs; perhaps the quality of the processor isn't that great, perhaps all of the money went into the Blu ray processing, I am not sure.....what I DO know -- and I realize this seems strange to you because your player is not behaving at all the same way -- is that depending on the DVD I play, the quality can be utterly atrocious and impossible to watch with video noise, grain, pixelation breakup and more, or it can look very good. Here is a good example: watching "Bad Boys II" in its Superbit edition, the images and colors were amazing on this Blu ray player (this was the Superbit DVD edition, not high def)...just the other night, I watched "Any Given Sunday" on Warner's standard DVD edition, and that looked great, too....on the other side of the fence, I tried watching "Menace II Society" the other night, and the noise, grain, and overall hideous picture forced me to stop the disc because I simply couldnt watch it (these were all being "upconverted" to 1080p). Now, dont get me wrong -- this disc, from New Line Cinema, was pretty bad to begin with -- the transfer is non anamorphic and looked grainy and washed out anyway. But on my previous system, with a $99 Panasonic DVD player, Menace II Society was at least WATCHABLE....now, running "upconverted" on this Blu ray player to this new Sony SXRD display, films like these are annoying to the point that I have to turn them off. This has happened on a few regular DVDs I have tried in my collection; if the goal of the manufacturers was to make you watch a regular DVD on one of these high def machines, then pop in a Blu ray or HD DVD disc and want to rebuy your entire DVD collection because they look terrible in comparison, then I almost bought into this tactic...I dont know what the disc player manufacturers would have to do with the movie studios wanting people to rebuy their collections to suck more money from them, but thats another story for another day....

I understand that you are trying to help, but don't you think that I realize this problem has to come from SOMEWHERE? I am trying to figure out if it's the TV, the player, the HDMI cables, the receiver....I just dont know. That's why I am trying to get some insight here on this great forum from you guys. I simply dont have the time or schedule to run down to the store where I purchased this player, bring some discs that dont look that good and see if they look better on other screens or players; at this point, I may just swap out this SXRD Sony set for one of their LCDs because I think it may be better than the rear projection set I bought...in fact, this week, I watched my girlfriend's cousin's Wega Projection LCD set with regular DVDs playing on it (and Blu rays), and even at this TV's maxumum resolution which is 1080i, regular DVDs looked tremendously better than they do on my SXRD rear projection set. I'm at my wits end with this.

In terms of your suggestion that I am "expecting too much," this is not true, as I have outlined multiple times already; I KNOW standard 480 DVD will never look as good as true high def and I know some discs look better and worse than others sometimes depending on the mastering, but most of the regular DVDs I play look bad.


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

*Well, that's usually what is meant, because before audio over HDMI, digital meant coax or optical, and analog meant the multichannel pre-outs. That interpretation is also sort of how I would think of it, but that's not really correct anymore, I suppose, with HDMI.*

Yes, before HDMI arrived, I know that "Digital Audio" referred to coax and optical; but what do you mean "thats not really correct anymore" in terms of HDMI? Is the HDMI not being "seen" as "digital" from my player? You see, on this player's setup menu, "AUDIO" opens another folder which includes a selection for "DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT" -- here, you can select PCM or BITSTREAM for EVERY codec supported by this unit: Dolby Digital, DTS, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD, AND you can select PCM DOWNCONVERSION, YES or NO (by the way, what should this be set on?)...under this "DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT" menu, there are no selections for any kind of HDMI control, which lead me to believe these choices did not affect the HDMI audio -- BUT, those high resolution codecs ARE available in this menu, so what the **** is going on? Does DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT also affect the HDMI connection? The only HDMI controls come under another folder in the setup menu called "HDMI," and this includes HDMI VIDEO OUT ON/OFF, HDMI AUDIO OUT ON/OFF, HDMI RESOLUTION and some other selections.....here, I selected ON for all HDMI video and audio choices, assuming this would send video and audio from this machine through the HDMI port...

*Well, that's what I would think too. But technically if the original encoded audio is converted to PCM, the player could bother to apply bass management and distance delays. It just seems like a weird thing if that's what's happening, so I would doubt that it is. But you could easily check this.*

Yeah; at this point, I dont know what is going on with these settings.....the whole thing seems conflicting and strange. All I know is that at this point, I have the high resolution audio codecs set to PCM under DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT, and BITSTREAM set for the lossy legacy codecs, which CAN pass bitstream via HDMI to my receiver for decoding. I dont know if any bass management or interference is going on from this player with screwing with the receiver's settings, but thats how I have it set up. It's ridiculous for all this to be so hard at this point.

*Beat's me.  There's lots of "stupidness" with the HD players these days, and the only non-stupid players seem to be the super expensive ones. At least you didn't pick up one of the $200 players, or earlier first-generation players, because then even less stuff would be supported.*

Indeed; this one question has been bugging me since I bought this player. But I did make sure, in response to your comment about the lessened support, that I bought a player which supported as many of these audio formats as possible -- the only problem is, the codecs are not passed bitstream to the receiver, and it doesnt support DTS Master Audio at all -- which kind of sucks because there are more than a few Fox titles I have on Blu ray which offer Master Audio tracks exclusively and so the mix, no matter what I do, must be downconverted to a standard core DTS track. I just wish I had an answer as to why Panasonic even bothered to put BITSTREAM as an option under the audio setup when the player cant pass the high resolution codecs that way.....UNLESS they planned a firmware upgrade which I could look into.

Also, I wanted to mention that in the latest issue of Home Theater Magazine, which I just received, there are multiple references and writeups about these Blu ray and HD DVD players which are now outputting the discs' audio tracks in Bitstream instead of PCM (the third generation players) because many home theater enthusiasts are frustrated that these first and second generation players will not put out the audio for decoding at their future-ready receivers -- so, I cannot be the only one out there dissapointed that these current players must put out the signal as PCM; there are actually many references to this issue in the current Home Theater Magazine.

*If you are not using DIRECT, I would expect bass management to be applied. In my experience, MULTICHANNEL meant that the audio was coming in over the multichannel input, and all the set up sound processing would be applied. Didn't imply anything else. But again, you could double check to make sure.*

Yes, MULTICHANNEL, traditionally, would mean that the analog jacks in the back were being used to receive an already decoded signal from a DVD player...but, now, with multichannel audio coming over HDMI, I'm wondering if the same rules apply: in other words, is my receiver working correctly if it is displaying "MULTICH" on the front display with "HDMI/PCM/MULTICH" illuminated in small lettering above it when I play these "uncompressed PCM" soundtracks on the Blu ray discs? Is this the correct listening mode?

*I don't have an HDMI audio processor. I could go into details, but basically I'm waiting for the price points to go down, everything to be fully supported, and my fair use rights to be possible without question. I am only sending through optical the original Dolby Digital, DTS, or 2-channel PCM audio, and my display doesn't say anything except DVD because that's the label of the optical input.*

Okay. Makes sense. Should have been what I did -- that is, wait for all these problems to be shaken out and stuck with standard DVD's fine Dolby Digital and DTS audio. But oh well.

*Six feet for a 50" screen is fine-ish. I sit about 10-11' away from a 92" screen. Vertical jagged lines sounds weird; vertical by definition shouldn't have any jaggies. Pictures would be really helpful. You could always try a different display or get a friend to bring over a different player.*

Wow, this sounds a bit extreme to me....I watch my girlfriend's cousin's 50" WEGA LCD projection from 10 feet away, and that seems just right and comfortable -- I cannot imagine watching a 92" screen from 10 feet away; at any rate, six feet from our 50" screen seems to really be hurting our eyes and it seems like there's just "too much screen" in our faces; you would think this would be a great notion, especially for a film buff, but we're finding that it has actually become distracting. I also theorized that this seating distance may be the reason why I am seeing so much pixelation and noise -- the closer you sit, the more imperfections in the film you're going to see, right? 

Still, with all this, we are now considering getting rid of this rear projection set and getting one of Sony's LCD flat screens at a smaller size; I recall seeing a Blu ray demo at Sears on one of Sony's LCD sets (the one with the glass "floating frame" screen) in which they showed clips of Pirates of the Caribbean, and there was a moment where Johnny Depp looked like he was literally floating off the screen and walking into your living room (if thats where the TV would go) -- the image was SOOOO dimensional and deep, it was ridiculous --- I was sold on LCD right there, but we couldnt afford the set. Would an LCD set look THAT much better than a standard rear projection screen?

*Maybe. I don't have the context of that statement in the manul...and again, you can verify yourself by seeing if there is sound coming out of the center and surrounds when you do this*

Do you mean when using the DIRECT mode no sound should be coming out of the center or surrounds?

*I would assume so, and it might downmix to 2-channel PCM over HDMI if you tell the player you only have two speakers. You should verify yourself.*

This is another thing about this player that is weird; even though the manual says the speaker settings for 2-CHANNEL means the player is sending the signals to a receiver that can do decoding and everything, and MULTI CHANNEL means the player would be doing the settings and everything, this doesnt mean anything because keeping the setting on MULTI CHANNEL seems to be the only way to get "correct" surround sound out of my system even though the player is connected DIGITALLY to my receiver which IS doing decoding and delays, etc....this is just plain off the wall....

*I would only expect the speaker settings to affect the HDMI audio when it is sending PCM and not the original encoded format. Why? Because PCM means the player is decoding the audio.*

So, let me see if I have this right.....because I have the codecs for the high resolution audio set to PCM, THAT is affecting those MULTI CHANNEL speaker settings in the player? But then we dont want the player to affect any bass management and such, right? But by setting the output to PCM and the speaker settings to MULTI CHANNEL, setting the player up to decode the formats internally, isnt this initiating the player's bass management and speaker distances and such? This is what I wanted the RECEIVER to do.....

*I think you're reading the manual too complicated, or the manual is stupid. Just make sure you're getting all channels of PCM into your receiver, with no bass management or distance delay applied, and don't worry about anything else. Do whatever works, not whatever the manual says.*

See, this is what concerns me too....I understand the suggestion and temptation to just "leave well enough alone" and "do what works," but I am very concerned that the machine is not doing "the right thing" even though it just works. What exactly is going on with these settings and why are they behaving they way they are? Again, here is the problem:

By leaving the DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT settings for the high resolution codecs on PCM, the player decodes the formats and sends them via PCM to the receiver; okay, I got that, but then how do I know if the player is adding distance delays, speaker calibrations, etc. because it IS running MULTI CHANNEL mode, which the manual suggests is SPECIFICALLY FOR adjusting the speaker settings and all that INSIDE THE PLAYER.....

*Your receiver should not have a low pass filter for the subwoofer output. The subwoofer's low pass filter should be turned off, or set as high as possible, otherwise you're putting a second low pass filter onto the already crossed-over signal coming from the receiver.*

Now here is another concern....my receiver, under the SPEAKER CONFIGURATION menu, DOES have a low pass filter selection for the subwoofer....now, what should this be set to? The manual says the default is somewhere around 120Hz....right now, I have it on 80Hz, like the other speaker crossovers....

*The OPPO has the Faroudja chip. You can find all those details on the OPPO web site. You would connect it via HDMI, yes, as you can see on the web site.*

Okay; you wouldnt recommend connecting through component?

*You could check your video processing settings.*

I dont think I have any video processor settings....

*Your Onkyo receiver. It should have a label on the front or something that says as much.*

Im sorry -- I lost track of what we were talking about here....exactly what should the Onkyo have a label for??

EDIT: Okay, since the last time I posted this, I realized what you were referring to -- the Onkyo receiver should have a label indicating the video chip it has inside, you say.....the front of the unit did not come with Onkyo's famous sticker labels indicating all the soundtracks it decodes or the power it puts out; my unit had none of those usual stickers on it. I cant even find in the manual where it says there is the Faroudja chip in it...

*Well, that right there says that the player's doing a worse job than either the TV or the receiver, whichever one ends up doing the work. In other words, you've said right there that choosing 480p looks better than 1080p from your player.*

Well, it looks just a TAD bit smoother -- but not great; and still, there's that annoying pixelation breakup and grain in dark sequences of some discs. Why does 1080p look worse upconverted than other resolutions???


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## khellandros66 (Jun 7, 2006)

I would return the DMP-BD10A and get the DMP-BD30 cause its just as good visually and passes all of the audio in bitstream over the HDMI to the Onkyo. If not then there is the Samsung BD1400 but I have not seen this one in use to comment on PQ.

~Bobby


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

khellandros66 said:


> I would return the DMP-BD10A and get the DMP-BD30 cause its just as good visually and passes all of the audio in bitstream over the HDMI to the Onkyo. If not then there is the Samsung BD1400 but I have not seen this one in use to comment on PQ.
> 
> ~Bobby


Hey Bobby,

Thanks for your input and thoughts on this ongoing issue; indeed, I considered stepping up to the new Panny that sends the audio via bitstream, but I cannot return this unit any longer -- the time has passed from the retail outlet I purchased it in that I cannot return the unit. So now I am stuck with this until I can sell the thing privately -- but aside from that, I was waiting until the last possible minute now to get another Blu ray player because I really want them to shake all the bugs out of the third generation of players; I dont want to be stuck with another situation like this. 

Are there official words yet on the third generation of players that will pass ALL high resolution soundtracks via bitstream INCLUDING DTS Master Audio?


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



ShnuggMac said:


> Yes, before HDMI arrived, I know that "Digital Audio" referred to coax and optical; but what do you mean "thats not really correct anymore" in terms of HDMI?


I just meant that audio over HDMI is also digital. I really can't answer specifics on what your player is doing in the different settings, because I don't own that player and didn't design it. As I've said before, I think you know exactly what is going on. Just pick the settings that do the best thing.



ShnuggMac said:


> I dont know if any bass management or interference is going on from this player with screwing with the receiver's settings, but thats how I have it set up.


That should be easy for you to test. Play a 2-channel CD with your receiver on DIRECT, and see if anything comes out the subwoofer. Or use something like Avia or DVE to output only the left channel and the receiver on DIRECT and see if something comes out of your subwoofer.



ShnuggMac said:


> in other words, is my receiver working correctly if it is displaying "MULTICH" on the front display with "HDMI/PCM/MULTICH" illuminated in small lettering above it when I play these "uncompressed PCM" soundtracks on the Blu ray discs?


Well, since you don't have any other audio connections, and you can hear things, I think it's right.



ShnuggMac said:


> I also theorized that this seating distance may be the reason why I am seeing so much pixelation and noise -- the closer you sit, the more imperfections in the film you're going to see, right?


Yes, however the screen should be about 33% of your viewing angle to match what you'd want in the movie theater, and you should be able to sit close especially with 1080p.



ShnuggMac said:


> Would an LCD set look THAT much better than a standard rear projection screen?


Some displays are going to look better than others. But the show rooms in retail stores is rarely the best place to compare picture quality. Still, I don't think you got a bad display.



ShnuggMac said:


> Do you mean when using the DIRECT mode no sound should be coming out of the center or surrounds?


If you were listening to a music CD, yes. But for a 5.1 movie, it should be coming out of all speakers.



ShnuggMac said:


> So, let me see if I have this right.....because I have the codecs for the high resolution audio set to PCM, THAT is affecting those MULTI CHANNEL speaker settings in the player?


No. All I meant is it is impossible for the player to do audio processing on the raw bitstreams, but it is possible once converted to PCM. It doesn't mean that the player is actually doing anything though.



ShnuggMac said:


> By leaving the DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT settings for the high resolution codecs on PCM, the player decodes the formats and sends them via PCM to the receiver; okay, I got that, but then how do I know if the player is adding distance delays, speaker calibrations, etc.


You test it out.



ShnuggMac said:


> Now here is another concern....my receiver, under the SPEAKER CONFIGURATION menu, DOES have a low pass filter selection for the subwoofer....now, what should this be set to? The manual says the default is somewhere around 120Hz....right now, I have it on 80Hz, like the other speaker crossovers....


Don't know. That's confusing to me.



ShnuggMac said:


> Okay; you wouldnt recommend connecting through component?


For that specific OPPO model, no. It's video processing is only applicable for its HDMI output, I think. Maybe I'm wrong. I have the older model, and I know they only put the good video processing on the DVI output.



ShnuggMac said:


> EDIT: Okay, since the last time I posted this, I realized what you were referring to -- the Onkyo receiver should have a label indicating the video chip it has inside, you say.....the front of the unit did not come with Onkyo's famous sticker labels indicating all the soundtracks it decodes or the power it puts out; my unit had none of those usual stickers on it. I cant even find in the manual where it says there is the Faroudja chip in it...


Hm. Well, the web site says it should have the Faroudja chip in it...is it listed in the manual?


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

*I just meant that audio over HDMI is also digital.*

Oh, okay; I was not sure what you meant because you said "I suppose with HDMI it's different" or some such words; my only concern, which I have said in the past posts, is that the "DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT" menu on this Panasonic seemed to be dedicated only to coax and optical outs -- hence the reason Panasonic put another HDMI menu in the setup also; yet, changing the high resolution audio codecs (Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD) here from PCM to bitstream or vice versa seems to absolutely make an audible difference...I was given misleading information from someone on another site who suggested to me and swore that these "Digital Audio Output" selections on THIS particular Panny Blu ray deck was ONLY for optical and coaxial out, NOT HDMI; this seemed to be wrong and indicates to me that there is still so much misleading information floating around out there online. 

*I really can't answer specifics on what your player is doing in the different settings, because I don't own that player and didn't design it. As I've said before, I think you know exactly what is going on. Just pick the settings that do the best thing.*

But I don't really know exactly whats going on.....thats the thing I have been trying to express all along.

*That should be easy for you to test. Play a 2-channel CD with your receiver on DIRECT, and see if anything comes out the subwoofer. Or use something like Avia or DVE to output only the left channel and the receiver on DIRECT and see if something comes out of your subwoofer.*

I'll do the CD test when I can. 

*Well, since you don't have any other audio connections, and you can hear things, I think it's right.*

Yes, I hear things with HDMI going from Blu ray player to receiver and then receiver to TV, and the receiver lighting up "MULTICHANNEL" on the display; I was just wondering if other Onkyo owners or those with knowledge of these units are getting the same display reading...

*Yes, however the screen should be about 33% of your viewing angle to match what you'd want in the movie theater, and you should be able to sit close especially with 1080p.*

Interesting; indeed, I watched "Live Free or Die Hard" tonight on Blu ray (in 1080p) and it looked okay, but seemed to exhibit tons of fine grain in the background of almost all scenes; then, we watched "40 Year Old Virgin" in standard def, and the upconverting looked okay, too; it's almost like this player wants to behave when it wants and leaves me out of the loop....we are beginning to think 50 inches was too big for our room and are looking into downsizing to a 42 or 46" LCD....what is the best screen outside of a front projection setup....would it be plasma, rear projection or LCD? 

*Some displays are going to look better than others. But the show rooms in retail stores is rarely the best place to compare picture quality. Still, I don't think you got a bad display.*

Okay, I guess I addressed more of this comment above; please keep in mind that we purchased Sony's SXRD rear projection set with the WEGA engine -- and this display is not an LCD, just a straight projection screen....do you think it's really not that bad? 

*No. All I meant is it is impossible for the player to do audio processing on the raw bitstreams, but it is possible once converted to PCM. It doesn't mean that the player is actually doing anything though.*

Okay, I understand of course that the player is doing nothing with the raw bitstreams -- but if you say it's possible once converted to PCM then why did you say right after that it doesnt mean the player is actually doing anything? Is it doing something to the PCM signal or not? 

*You test it out.*

But I dont really know what Im listening for...

*Don't know. That's confusing to me.*

Well thats not good.....are there any Onkyo owners possibly reading this thread who can help and tell me what the sub's low pass filter should be set to? 

*For that specific OPPO model, no. It's video processing is only applicable for its HDMI output, I think. Maybe I'm wrong. I have the older model, and I know they only put the good video processing on the DVI output.*

Okay; so if I decide to get this OPPO upconverting deck, I will connect through HDMI....

*Hm. Well, the web site says it should have the Faroudja chip in it...is it listed in the manual?*

No, I dont believe the manual says it either....I will double check it and the website...

Thank you for your continued help.


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*



ShnuggMac said:


> *I really can't answer specifics on what your player is doing in the different settings, because I don't own that player and didn't design it. As I've said before, I think you know exactly what is going on. Just pick the settings that do the best thing.*
> 
> But I don't really know exactly whats going on.....thats the thing I have been trying to express all along.


Well, but as far as I can tell it seems like using BITSTREAM for the older codecs and PCM for the newer codecs (while making sure all speakers are set to the same distance and bass management on the player is somehow turned off) is what you decided does the best thing.



ShnuggMac said:


> we are beginning to think 50 inches was too big for our room and are looking into downsizing to a 42 or 46" LCD....what is the best screen outside of a front projection setup....would it be plasma, rear projection or LCD?


Well, I don't know what you're seeing but it's kind of hard for me, and probably the others here, to accept that logic. Sony's SXRD WEGA technology is very good. I've never heard anything bad about it. And changing the display when you might be unhappy with the player would really be a waste of money. There are different advantages and disadvantages to the different display technologies, and you'll have to pick for yourself.

Can you borrow a different high-definition unit from someone and try that out?



ShnuggMac said:


> *No. All I meant is it is impossible for the player to do audio processing on the raw bitstreams, but it is possible once converted to PCM. It doesn't mean that the player is actually doing anything though.*
> 
> Okay, I understand of course that the player is doing nothing with the raw bitstreams -- but if you say it's possible once converted to PCM then why did you say right after that it doesnt mean the player is actually doing anything? Is it doing something to the PCM signal or not?


You're asking me things that I cannot answer. It's possible to process the audio after being converted to PCM, but that doesn't mean it is processing the audio. I don't know what it is doing. You're the only one that can figure that out for yourself, by testing things. Unless someone else can chime in that has the same unit. Sorry.



ShnuggMac said:


> *You test it out.*
> 
> But I dont really know what Im listening for...


Can you get a friend who does? Or use one of those calibration discs to walk you through things?


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## ShnuggMac (Nov 10, 2007)

*Re: Greetings, Fellow Shackers! Introductions and Major Issues I'm Having with Blu Ra*

*Well, but as far as I can tell it seems like using BITSTREAM for the older codecs and PCM for the newer codecs (while making sure all speakers are set to the same distance and bass management on the player is somehow turned off) is what you decided does the best thing.*

Yes, indeed, I find that Dolby Digital and DTS send just fine via bitstream over HDMI to the receiver to be decoded there; the newer codecs do require PCM. I am just still confused as to whether or not the player is making any internal changes to the settings under these conditions. 

*Well, I don't know what you're seeing but it's kind of hard for me, and probably the others here, to accept that logic. Sony's SXRD WEGA technology is very good. I've never heard anything bad about it. And changing the display when you might be unhappy with the player would really be a waste of money. There are different advantages and disadvantages to the different display technologies, and you'll have to pick for yourself.*

While this may be hard for you to accept this logic, your last statement in this paragraph is the reason why many of these "help" sites for this hobby don't really "help" most of the time -- if I was able to "pick for myself" I wouldn't be here asking advice on screens, players and technologies....I was under the assumption that rear projection screens were the best bang for the buck in big screen displays and then I was hearing LCD and Plasma are now the way to go, so Im feeling like the $1500 I dropped on this screen gave me something that wasnt that great; why am I still seeing ghosting, grain and noise even in the background of Blu ray films if the SXRD technology is so great? 

*Can you borrow a different high-definition unit from someone and try that out?*

Wish I could but not an option.

*You're asking me things that I cannot answer. It's possible to process the audio after being converted to PCM, but that doesn't mean it is processing the audio. I don't know what it is doing. You're the only one that can figure that out for yourself, by testing things. Unless someone else can chime in that has the same unit. Sorry.*

But that first statement is contradictory.....unless Im reading it wrong....


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

Rear projection is definitely the most cost efficient. But best bang for the buck for a large screen is a front projector. But then you've got a whole set of other trade offs. If one technology was simply better in all categories than the others, no one would be buying the others. It all comes down to the trade offs, features, and qualities that you choose for yourself.

If you're really looking for the best picture quality, then you need to read the reviews that measure the displays, pick a display, and then buy calibration hardware and software to get everything dialed in correctly. If doing-it-yourself isn't an option, then you've got to pay big bucks for an ISF calibration.

And the thing is, there's still no proof that the display is what's causing you all these visual problems. You've got three things in your video chain, and you're the only one that can actually do the work to narrow the problem down to the specific piece of gear.

The question I cannot answer is whether or not your player is performing audio signal processing on the PCM signal. The only way to figure this out is to perform the tests, or find someone that has performed the tests and can answer the question.


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