# A Couple of Questions Regarding My Onkyo Two-Channel Receiver...



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

At the heart of my two-channel setup (separate from my 5.1 surround system) is a solidly-built, aluminum-faceplated, 100 watt-per-channel Onkyo TX-8555 stereo receiver. This unit has no "TAPE 2" loop/jacks, so it seems that hooking up an external graphic equalizer would be out of the question...is there a way around this? I'd like to get an EQ running in the loop of this thing -- not just inbetween it and one component, like, say, the CD changer -- but is there any way to connect a graphic equalizer to a receiver without TAPE 2 or TAPE MONITOR jacks?

Also -- this stereo receiver model has a subwoofer pre in on the back, and I was planning on swapping my Polk PSW350 that's serving sub duty in my surround system right now into the two-channel system once I get a new (preferably SVS) sub for the surround setup. My question is, since there's no digital bass management inside this receiver (it's a purely analog product), would I just connect the sub to the receiver's "SUB PRE IN" via the RCA connection, as one normally would for a surround setup, and if so, do the two speakers in the two-channel system function as they do, full-range, WHILE the sub operates as well? 

From all accounts, Onkyo claims the TX-8555 model has a fixed LFE crossover of 80Hz I believe, so would the sub just be running while the mains are also running full-range? What would I set the "Low Pass" knob on the back of the sub to in this situation, or would this knob be over-ridden like it is in my surround setup right now because I'm using the LFE pre out/pre in connection?


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

I can't think of a way to hook up an external processor without a true tape loop. The Tape IN and Tape OUT jacks on the Onkyo TX-8555 do not appear to be a tape monitor loop that would accommodate an external processor.

There is no bass management on the Onkyo TX-8555 subwoofer preout. You would connect the subwoofer preout on the Onkyo TX-8555 to the left and right line level input of the Polk PSW350 (can use a Y-adapter if you want to). Your loudspeakers will run full range from the Onkyop TX-8555 and your subwoofer will be low-passed according to the setting on the subwoofer (adjustable 60Hz to 160Hz).

I can't find anywhere that Onkyo states the Onkyo TX-8555 has a fixed crossover of 80 Hz on its sub preout. Just some Internet chatter that cannot be confirmed. In any case, it is possible to apply two low pass crossovers with the one set to the lowest setting superceding the higher, this can cause some problems if the frequency points of each are too close together.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Thank you for your reply, Jack...



jackfish said:


> I can't think of a way to hook up an external processor without a true tape loop. The Tape IN and Tape OUT jacks on the Onkyo TX-8555 do not appear to be a tape monitor loop that would accommodate an external processor.


Indeed; I figured I would need a TAPE 2 or TAPE LOOP input, but I wanted to throw it out there...

What if I ran the EQ's in and out through the Onkyo's regular TAPE IN and OUTs, and then connected my CD recorder's analog INs and OUTs to the EQ -- would that work as a kind of work-around?



> There is no bass management on the Onkyo TX-8555 subwoofer preout. You would connect the subwoofer preout on the Onkyo TX-8555 to the left and right line level input of the Polk PSW350 (can use a Y-adapter if you want to).


Wait -- I wouldn't connect the standard, one-jack RCA preout from the receiver to the sub? I would have to run TWO? I don't even think the PSW350 has dual line level inputs -- just one, to accept the LFE signal from a receiver or processor...



> Your loudspeakers will run full range from the Onkyop TX-8555 and your subwoofer will be low-passed according to the setting on the subwoofer (adjustable 60Hz to 160Hz).


Okay; what I figured -- so what would be the best rolloff in your opinion for music using the PSW350 and Infinity Primus P363 towers as the mains?



> I can't find anywhere that Onkyo states the Onkyo TX-8555 has a fixed crossover of 80 Hz on its sub preout. Just some Internet chatter that cannot be confirmed. In any case, it is possible to apply two low pass crossovers with the one set to the lowest setting superceding the higher, this can cause some problems if the frequency points of each are too close together.


Yes, I was going by the answer someone gave online in a forum regarding the fact that he had confirmed the crossover is fixed at 80Hz on the 8555's sub preout from Onkyo themselves...


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Just my 2cents but why do you want an EQ keep it clean.:T


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

bambino said:


> Just my 2cents but why do you want an EQ keep it clean.:T


I think you're right, Bambino my good friend -- I probably will just live without the EQ, and continue to run the receiver at midway bass and treble...

I used to like the sound of an EQ plugged into the two channel signal, with the curve set to the infamous "smiley face" as it seemed to "goose" the sound up -- I was hoping to go for that again with this system, even wanting an EQ that boasted a spectrum analyzer for the cool output display, but alas, I think you're right about "keeping it clean"...

Further, an EQ that I would want -- specifically an Onkyo model to match my receiver -- would have to be found pre-owned online somewhere, and that would be a headache all to itself...:sarcastic: :rant:

Do you recommend just leaving an external EQ out of the system?


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Osage_Winter said:


> Do you recommend just leaving an external EQ out of the system?


I do. EQ's are made to fix problems, like speaker/room interaction, and the digital room EQ's built into the latest AVR's can do a great job. Bambino is right, an older 1/3 octave analog EQ box is going to introduce more problems than it solves, namely phase issues and boosted frequencies robbing power from the rest of the spectrum. Rarely are graphic equalizers able to hit the problem frequency directly, and frequencies on either side of the center band will be affected whether you want it or not.

If you want to make improvements, try to address the root cause (room acoustics). Move your speakers and/or listening position for better integration with your room. If you don't have much room to play with, even moving speakers or your chair an inch or two can make a difference. :T


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Room treatments can also be employed, but it is best to have room measuring capability to identify problems.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Yeah buddy. Leave the EQ out and do room treatments if needed but with the quality of your system i think your ears will evolve to the likeness of the sound.:T


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

tesseract said:


> I do. EQ's are made to fix problems, like speaker/room interaction, and the digital room EQ's built into the latest AVR's can do a great job. Bambino is right, an older 1/3 octave analog EQ box is going to introduce more problems than it solves, namely phase issues and boosted frequencies robbing power from the rest of the spectrum. Rarely are graphic equalizers able to hit the problem frequency directly, and frequencies on either side of the center band will be affected whether you want it or not.
> 
> If you want to make improvements, try to address the root cause (room acoustics). Move your speakers and/or listening position for better integration with your room. If you don't have much room to play with, even moving speakers or your chair an inch or two can make a difference. :T


Thanks tess...

But the thing is, I'm not really compensating for any problems, per se -- the system sounds good as-is. I just wanted that "frequency goosing" you get from an EQ in the loop...

Also -- my receiver doesn't have built-in room EQ...it's a two-channel stereo model (no longer made by Onkyo actually):

http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=TX-8555&class=Receiver&p=i


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

bambino said:


> Yeah buddy. Leave the EQ out and do room treatments if needed


Thanks; as I said to tessaract though, I am not in need of treatments -- the sound isn't bad, at all...I just wanted to introduce an EQ for that "goosed up" experience you get when putting one in the loop of a system, plus the spectrum analyzer, for music, is hella-cool...:T



> but with the quality of your system i think your ears will evolve to the likeness of the sound.:T


What do you mean? :scratch:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I beg to differ regarding the use of an EQ on a two channel system. Room treatment is a great way to go but remember that even the speakers are not going to reproduce the music as it was recorded unless they cost thousands. A good quality EQ from the likes of Yamaha, Ashley, Audio control and the list goes on (not Beringer) can very well make it sound much better without adding noise or other issues. But as has been pointed out without a tape loop its impossible to add one that covers all the source feeds.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Osage_Winter said:


> Thanks tess...
> 
> But the thing is, I'm not really compensating for any problems, per se -- the system sounds good as-is. I just wanted that "frequency goosing" you get from an EQ in the loop...
> 
> ...


Yep, I was talking about new AVR's. I also have a Sherwood Newcastle R-972 with state of the art Trinnov to play with, as does tonyvdb. 

I went back to using an amp with nothing more than a volume attenuator, selector switch and a power button. Not even a balance control or headphone jack to be found! 

Someday I will try the Sherwood again, I just want to go full surround when I do it.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> I beg to differ regarding the use of an EQ on a two channel system. Room treatment is a great way to go but remember that even the speakers are not going to reproduce the music as it was recorded unless they cost thousands. A good quality EQ from the likes of Yamaha, Ashley, Audio control and the list goes on (not Beringer) can very well make it sound much better without adding noise or other issues. But as has been pointed out without a tape loop its impossible to add one that covers all the source feeds.


I'll post in the interest of those readers with tape loops. 

Making one's system sound good is fine and I understand the want to tweak the sound to please the ear along with a spectrum analyzer to please the eye. But that doesn't mean the good sound achieved is more accurate (nor are many spectrum analyzers very accurate). Measurements would be needed to verify that. 

One issue that will always be present if boosting frequencies is amplifier power. It is easy to drive an amp into clipping with over boost.

You did mention some of the better EQ's, Tony. Here are a couple more. Many of what we are mentioning here will only be found used.
http://www.alesis.com/deq230d
http://rane.com/deq60l.html

Really if you are going to do it, I feel a sophisticated automatic digital program with many filters, or a multi band parametric with adjustable Q combined with a measurement system for verification is best.

But we own audio systems for the fun of it, and "making it sound good" is part of that fun. Nothing wrong with this.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> I beg to differ regarding the use of an EQ on a two channel system. Room treatment is a great way to go but remember that even the speakers are not going to reproduce the music as it was recorded unless they cost thousands. A good quality EQ from the likes of Yamaha, Ashley, Audio control and the list goes on (not Beringer) can very well make it sound much better without adding noise or other issues. But as has been pointed out without a tape loop its impossible to add one that covers all the source feeds.


Thanks for your viewpoints, Tony. Just out of curiosity, why would you advise against Behringer? From what I understand, they make some awesome EQs...

As for the tape loop issue, would what I suggested work? That is, plug the EQ through the receiver's standard TAPE connections, then plug my CD recorder, as the "tape/recording" source, into the EQ? 

*Here's something else I didn't consider or mention earlier: This stereo receiver model does boast pre out main jacks for connecting an external power amp -- could these be used in substitute of a tape loop connection? I have read this can be done -- that an EQ could be connected between the power amp and preamp sections of a unit like this via the preamp outputs...*


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

tesseract said:


> Yep, I was talking about new AVR's. I also have a Sherwood Newcastle R-972 with state of the art Trinnov to play with, as does tonyvdb.
> 
> I went back to using an amp with nothing more than a volume attenuator, selector switch and a power button. Not even a balance control or headphone jack to be found!
> 
> Someday I will try the Sherwood again, I just want to go full surround when I do it.


I have heard good things about the Sherwoods with the Trinnov proprietary setup systems -- though I wouldn't touch one of their cheap "Radio Shack sourced" stereo models with a 20 foot cattle prod...:sarcastic: :rolleyesno:

I thought you were referring me to a surround AVR -- or referring to MY stereo receiver -- with the EQ processing onboard; that's the only reason I mentioned that I did in fact have a stereo-only unit with power for simply two channels, no onboard processing of any kind (though it does boast some simple video switching capabilities if I am not mistaken; if I had my choice, I would have wished that this unit was much more only-audio-centric, rather than even offer input jacks for DVD players or TV/Game, etc. My original wish was for the Onkyo A-9555 integrated amp, but that beauty was out of my budget at the time.

At any rate, I see your point about using devices that didn't even have balance or tone controls for pure signal reproduction; many an audiophile prefer using the cleanest path between source and amplification/output stage, even if this means stripping the signal of balance, tone or even switching on a PURE DIRECT mode or other such algorithm. Many prefer -- even enthusiasts that own my stereo receiver of whom I've read their experiences online -- running music through a direct mode which bypasses the display of the unit and all tone controls; Yamaha even offers some kind of CD AMP DIRECT mode on their new stereo receiver models that's supposed to preserve the integrity of the CD's sound as best as possible -- to me, I don't hear any degredation of any kind just running the stereo receiver in its default stereo mode, leaving bass and treble knobs at their default midway positions...:huh:


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Osage_Winter said:


> Indeed; I figured I would need a TAPE 2 or TAPE LOOP input, but I wanted to throw it out there...
> 
> What if I ran the EQ's in and out through the Onkyo's regular TAPE IN and OUTs, and then connected my CD recorder's analog INs and OUTs to the EQ -- would that work as a kind of work-around?


What make and model EQ do you have? I'm thinking your options are nil without a true tape loop.



Osage_Winter said:


> Wait -- I wouldn't connect the standard, one-jack RCA preout from the receiver to the sub? I would have to run TWO? I don't even think the PSW350 has dual line level inputs -- just one, to accept the LFE signal from a receiver or processor...


 According to the manual for the Polk PSW350 there is an LFE input, and right and left line level inputs.




Osage_Winter said:


> Okay; what I figured -- so what would be the best rolloff in your opinion for music using the PSW350 and Infinity Primus P363 towers as the mains?


Set the PSW350 at 60 Hz.




Osage_Winter said:


> Yes, I was going by the answer someone gave online in a forum regarding the fact that he had confirmed the crossover is fixed at 80Hz on the 8555's sub preout from Onkyo themselves...


For Onkyo, it seems an important detail to leave out of all your literature on the TX-8555. You could run a stereo RCA cable from the right and left preout jacks of the TX-8555 to the left and right line level inputs of the PSW350 and set the PSW350 crossover at 60 Hz, and not have to worry about an undetermined corssover on the TX-8555 sub preout.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Osage_Winter said:


> Thanks for your viewpoints, Tony. Just out of curiosity, why would you advise against Behringer? From what I understand, they make some awesome EQs...
> 
> As for the tape loop issue, would what I suggested work? That is, plug the EQ through the receiver's standard TAPE connections, then plug my CD recorder, as the "tape/recording" source, into the EQ?
> 
> *Here's something else I didn't consider or mention earlier: This stereo receiver model does boast pre out main jacks for connecting an external power amp -- could these be used in substitute of a tape loop connection? I have read this can be done -- that an EQ could be connected between the power amp and preamp sections of a unit like this via the preamp outputs...*


There would be no way to get the signal back into the receiver as there are no "main in" jacks. If you added a power amplifier you could run EQ between the TX-8555 as a preamp and the power amp.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Osage_Winter said:


> Thanks for your viewpoints, Tony. Just out of curiosity, why would you advise against Behringer? From what I understand, they make some awesome EQs...


Nope, they use cheep parts they are just fine for sub use but for full range they are noisy among other issues.



> As for the tape loop issue, would what I suggested work? That is, plug the EQ through the receiver's standard TAPE connections, then plug my CD recorder, as the "tape/recording" source, into the EQ?
> 
> *Here's something else I didn't consider or mention earlier: This stereo receiver model does boast pre out main jacks for connecting an external power amp -- could these be used in substitute of a tape loop connection? I have read this can be done -- that an EQ could be connected between the power amp and preamp sections of a unit like this via the preamp outputs...*


As mentioned the only way you can add an EQ to what you have is if you use an external amp and place the EQ between it and the receiver.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

jackfish said:


> What make and model EQ do you have? I'm thinking your options are nil without a true tape loop.


I don't have an EQ as of yet. Just throwing it out there; the one I would want would be a discontinued (for some time now) Onkyo with spectrum analyzer...



> According to the manual for the Polk PSW350 there is an LFE input, and right and left line level inputs.


Oh, okay -- that was a misunderstanding on my part...I meant there is one LFE input, that I assumed would go to the receiver's LFE out...



> Set the PSW350 at 60 Hz.


Even if I hook it up via RCA preamp? From what I understand, if anything is connected to the sub's LFE in, then that crossover knob is automatically bypassed...further, can I ask why you suggest that particular crossover setting? Just asking out of sheer curiosity -- would this be the best setting when running in conjunction with the Infinity 363s?



> For Onkyo, it seems an important detail to leave out of all your literature on the TX-8555. You could run a stereo RCA cable from the right and left preout jacks of the TX-8555 to the left and right line level inputs of the PSW350 and set the PSW350 crossover at 60 Hz, and not have to worry about an undetermined corssover on the TX-8555 sub preout.


Oh, I see -- the left and right PREOUT jacks would connect to the PSW350's left and right line level in's?


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

jackfish said:


> There would be no way to get the signal back into the receiver as there are no "main in" jacks. If you added a power amplifier you could run EQ between the TX-8555 as a preamp and the power amp.


I see -- okay, so that option's out....was just throwing it out there...


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Nope, they use cheep parts they are just fine for sub use but for full range they are noisy among other issues.


Interesting; I have read and heard the exact opposite regarding this brand. :huh:



> As mentioned the only way you can add an EQ to what you have is if you use an external amp and place the EQ between it and the receiver.


Understood.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Osage_Winter said:


> Interesting; I have read and heard the exact opposite regarding this brand.


There are lots of fans of Beringer however there is a reason you wont find professional studios or good front of house sound systems with any of their products in them.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Point taken.


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