# 5.1 System Poll



## JonWJ

Okay. We discussed my system in general in this thread, and after much advice and consideration of my specific circumstances, I have narrowed it down to 3 different 5.1 systems (with a couple variations of them). Please vote and/or comment on which of these you think is the best option. I understand that you might prefer to spend this amount of money in a completely different way (2.1 system, etc), but please give me feedback about which of the specific options listed you think is best for me and maybe why you think so. Thanks guys. You have already been very helpful.

Note: The last option should say SUB-120, not 125. Idk how to edit the options' text now that I posted the poll.

Edit: I hope posting about another thread like this is okay


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## JonWJ

Here's more details about the options:



JonWJ said:


> Okay guys, I know I've probably driven you crazy so far, but one last speaker question and then I'll make my decision and then start annoying you about AVRs. I have definitely narrowed it down to 3 different, similarly priced speaker packages, and each having possible pro's and con's. I need your input within the next day or so and in order to make my final speaker decision. Here's the options (Not necessarily in any particular order):
> 
> *Option A:*
> 
> MartinLogan MLT-2 5.1CH Home Theater Speaker System
> Here it is
> *$299* on Newegg until 10/26 (Normally $499)
> Pro's: Seems like a steal compared to the normal price. Larger system. Easily wall-mountable w/o extra hardware (also, don't appear to have rear bass ports). The ML name and reputation(?)
> Con's: Sounds too good to be true (why sell a $1000 MSRP set for $299?). A fair number of Newegg customers complained of long-term reliability issues and received damaged products due to poor manufacturer packaging. There was talk of these not being true ML quality, but poor quality Chinese builds backed by the ML name. Basically I'm concerned that this speaker set doesn't live up to ML's reputation.
> In spite of my concerns, I know that even the best products will get poor customer reviews, and that a few poor reviews always get more attention than many good reviews.
> 
> *Option B:*
> 
> Pioneer SP-PK21BS 5.1 system (Would have to piece together the set. Can't find the whole package together, but that's okay)
> Very highly regarded by CNET - Take a second to skim the review
> Could build it using either the smaller, reviewed SP-BS21-LR speakers in the front, or the larger SP-BS41-LR's up front and the SP-BS21-LR for the surrounds
> The center channel is the SP-C21, and the surround is the SW-8.
> Price if using 4 of the smaller SP-BS21-LR's = *$299.50*
> Price if using 2 of the larger SP-BS41-LR's = *$319.50*
> Pro's: Very good reviews on CNET. Fairly well-respected brand. Decent price and easy to find the various speakers online.
> Con's: Pretty big (not necessarily a con, but...). Not easy/possible to mount, and if I wanted to mount on a wall, may block rear bass ports. Smaller speakers and sub than the ML system (But the SP-PK41's are bigger than the ML surrounds).
> I like these a lot, but I wonder if the ML system is a better deal. Also, the whole mounting issue would be a little annoying.
> 
> *Option C:*
> 
> Energy Take Classic 5.1 system (Will probably have to buy the 5.0 system and the sub seprately.)
> The 5.0 system is on sale for $150 on Newegg until 10/26 (Normally $200)
> Would have to add the highly-touted Energy ESW-8 200W 8" sub (kind of pricey/hard to find) or a different sub.
> Could add the previously recommended Dayton sub for $98 (10” 125W SUB-100) or $124 (12” 150W SUB-120)
> Total price would be *$250-$300+*, depending on the sub I used.
> Pro's: Very highly regarded on CNET (This review talks about these two sets. Editor's pick 2011). Small, stylish system. Easy to mount. Might be the best of both worlds - Definitely are considered good quality, and are smaller and easier to mount than the Pioneer set.
> Con's: Although the sound is great for a small set, it can't keep up with larger speakers at high volume (I don't anticipate being extremely concerned about high volume, but you never know and it plays into the decision). The matching sub is hard to find at a good price, and I'm unsure how well a different sub will match with the set (CNET attributes the set's great sound mostly to the ESW-8 sub and how well it's matched to the speakers). These also have rear bass ports, so wall-mounting might affect the SQ a bit.
> I'm not sure what to think of this option. The look, mounting convenience, and price are a plus, but Idk if it's worth sacrificing a little SQ, or if it would even be a noticeable SQ difference for my purposes.
> 
> 
> Please take just minute to read this and tell me which option of the 3 you would go with if you were in my shoes and maybe a sentence or two why. I would really appreciate it.


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## tonyvdb

I vote for Option 1 only because of the big discount. none of the other speaker packages have a good a sub with them and thats where a big part of the dynamics for movies come into play. 

My only concern is what are you going to use to power the speakers, did you decide on a receiver?


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## JonWJ

tonyvdb said:


> My only concern is what are you going to use to power the speakers, did you decide on a receiver?


I'm kind of leaning toward the Onkyo HT-RC360 right now. I'm sure it can handle any of those speaker systems, right? I'm just not sure if it's the best match for my speakers and projector, or if there is a cheaper option that will perform just as well with my lower-tear equipment. It might be overkill for my stuff. But I figured I would pick the speakers and then figure all that out. Although I know the AVR is the heart of the rig, it seems like deciding on a speaker setup is a little tougher at my budget level. There are so many options.


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## tonyvdb

Try not to get to caught up i the numbers and specifications, its not easy on a small budget and i understand. the onkyo will do just fin. If you can push that budget for the receiver about $50 the Onkyo 609 gives you alot more including Audyssey auto room EQ and THX certification meaning some very useful processing modes.


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## JBrax

tonyvdb said:


> Try not to get to caught up i the numbers and specifications, its not easy on a small budget and i understand. the onkyo will do just fin. If you can push that budget for the receiver about $50 the Onkyo 609 gives you alot more including Audyssey auto room EQ and THX certification meaning some very useful processing modes.


^^^ +1


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## JonWJ

tonyvdb said:


> Try not to get to caught up i the numbers and specifications, its not easy on a small budget and i understand. the onkyo will do just fin. If you can push that budget for the receiver about $50 the Onkyo 609 gives you alot more including Audyssey auto room EQ and THX certification meaning some very useful processing modes.


...Oh. I compared them and I failed to notice the THX cert. Really, I put all the listed specs and features in side-by-side windows and I didn't really see any differences. I was having trouble understanding what separated the two. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they both feature the Audyssey EQ?


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## JonWJ

:sad: 39 views and 2 different members responding, but only one vote so far. :foottap: Come on guys, each of those options involve Newegg promos that only last until the 26th (Friday!) :help:


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## JBrax

I would agree that going with the 609 would be a wise choice and it's not that far outside of your budget. I'm not personally a big fan of HTIB regardless of the brand name but if that's the route you've chosen then so be it. I would strongly suggest the option Jack provided earlier with the SVS package. You would be much happier in the long run. That's my vote.


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## zieglj01

JonWJ said:


> :sad: 39 views and 2 different members responding, but only one vote so far. :foottap: Come on guys, each of those options involve Newegg promos that only last until the 26th (Friday!) :help:


I do not put a lot of weight in CNET or Amazon reviews. I like to eat
the fish and spit out the bones.

The Martin Logan is pretty much Paradigm >> however that is a small
center speaker, and also has been stated more than once, that it does
not blend real well with the front channels. The positive side, it has a 
somewhat bigger sub. The Pioneer sub does not have a lot of high SPL 
however, it has been measured down to 29hz.

My choice is the Pioneer with the BS41 bookshelf speakers, and it has a
good center channel speaker >> The BS41 will have nice bass for its size.
You can always save for a bigger subwoofer >> and use the Pioneer sub 
for now. 

The Energy set looks like it will do pretty good in a walk-in closet. Small
speakers can sound nice - however, the sound will still be small.


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## JonWJ

zieglj01 said:


> ...The Pioneer sub does not have a lot of high SPL
> however, it has been measured down to 29hz.
> 
> My choice is the Pioneer with the BS41 bookshelf speakers, and it has a
> good center channel speaker >> The BS41 will have nice bass for its size.
> You can always save for a bigger subwoofer >> and use the Pioneer sub
> for now.


What about using one of the Dayton subs with the Pioneer set instead of the matching Pioneer sub? I would be buying the sub separately either way and they are pretty much the same price. Would one of the previously mentioned Dayton subs match well with that system? Also, that wouldn't pose a connection issue, right?


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## zieglj01

JonWJ said:


> What about using one of the Dayton subs with the Pioneer set instead of the matching Pioneer sub? I would be buying the sub separately either way and they are pretty much the same price. Would one of the previously mentioned Dayton subs match well with that system? Also, that wouldn't pose a connection issue, right?


I have not listened to the Dayton sub - and I do not get excited over
Parts Express online reviews. However, I expect them to sound a little 
better than some old RadioShack subwoofers. At the price, it can not
hurt to try > if you buy one, then get the 12 inch one. Hook-up should
not be a problem.


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## Todd Anderson

I'd go option 1 or 2. Based on your concerns about reliability, probably 2 first.... Go as big as possible.

I would, personally, avoid 3. I've heard heard that set-up and it I thought it sounded, well, pretty bad.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated

> ... don't [the 309 and 609] both feature the Audyssey EQ?


I searched the manual for the 309 and there's no mention of Audyssey. I agree with the previous comments that the 609 is worth the extra money if you can afford it.

Re. the 5.1 system: My vote goes to the "Pioneer SP-PK21BS 5.1 system w/ BS41's for L/R".

I don't think any of the subs listed will be particularly impressive, but as long as your AVR and speakers are decent, at least you'll only need to replace/upgrade one item in your set-up.


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## Dub King

I'm concurring with the Pioneer rig, also with the larger front speakers. You gain an extra decibel of sensitivity plus higher power handling for only $20, that's an easy choice. Stereophile magazine rated those exact speakers and said that despite the low price there were no compromises made in the sound quality - they are 'a faithful transducer of music' so long as you don't expect them to break the laws of physics. That's an enormously strong recommendation from that venerable periodical.

I gave the 2012 version a try, bringing home a pair of the bookshelf models and I found them to be profoundly good for the money. Transparency is the key word. From what I have heard, the SQ is very similar but the newer models are more efficient. The efficiency boost was easy to confirm, the new models have a 2-3db advantage on the old ones.


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## tonyvdb

JonWJ said:


> ...Oh. I compared them and I failed to notice the THX cert. Really, I put all the listed specs and features in side-by-side windows and I didn't really see any differences. I was having trouble understanding what separated the two. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they both feature the Audyssey EQ?


Of the two only the 609 has Audyssey EQ2. Like I said earlier, THX certification gives you some very useful processing modes that are not useless like many that come with receivers these days. The 609 also has a little more power and if I remember right more HDMI inputs.


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## Jungle Jack

I am not completely sure why the need for an additional thread about the same questions. The Primus P363 from Fry's that Jerry pointed out would be absurdly better than using a HTIB. However, it seems like it is 5.1 or bust.

Especially when using a Front Projector Setup, to consider using HTIB's like the Energy Take 5 is really going to be pretty underwhelming. At $220, the P363's are simply fantastic and will provide quality bass. I wish you well in your decision and hope it provides you with years of enjoyment.


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## Dub King

I'll chime in and say I concur. With HTIB you flirt with 'buy cheap, buy twice' whereas investing in a good pair of mains is a great starting point one can build off of. The effect you can achieve with just a pair of decent speakers should not be underestimated. Well-positioned, high quality mains can/do produce a convincing 3D soundfield and are a perfectly legitimate way to watch movies.



Jungle Jack said:


> I am not completely sure why the need for an additional thread about the same questions. The Primus P363 from Fry's that Jerry pointed out would be absurdly better than using a HTIB. However, it seems like it is 5.1 or bust.
> 
> Especially when using a Front Projector Setup, to consider using HTIB's like the Energy Take 5 is really going to be pretty underwhelming. At $220, the P363's are simply fantastic and will provide quality bass. I wish you well in your decision and hope it provides you with years of enjoyment.


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## JonWJ

eljay said:


> I searched the manual for the 309 and there's no mention of Audyssey. I agree with the previous comments that the 609 is worth the extra money if you can afford it.
> 
> Re. the 5.1 system: My vote goes to the "Pioneer SP-PK21BS 5.1 system w/ BS41's for L/R".
> 
> I don't think any of the subs listed will be particularly impressive, but as long as your AVR and speakers are decent, at least you'll only need to replace/upgrade one item in your set-up.


I misspoke. I meant the 360, not the 309. I thought the 360 had Audyssey.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated

JonWJ said:


> I misspoke. I meant the 360, not the 309. I thought the 360 had Audyssey.


Yes, according to the owner's manual the 360 has Audyssey's:
- basic 2EQ auto-EQ solution (performs basic auto-calibration functions);
- Dynamic EQ (adjusts equalization based on volume); and
- Dynamic Volume (minimizes volume variations within a given audio stream or when switching between different audio streams).


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## Todd Anderson

Jon -

Interesting replies. Perhaps you need to step back and re-evaluate... Think about the suggestions to look away from the HTIB options. 

I said before, I think you'd be happy with the RM6750 or RM705 set-up. But that is not to say that those packages or the others would somehow magically trump some legit full size speakers if you were to hear them side-by-side.

Perhaps you go with the best AVR, and full size speakers to run up front - you've gotten some suggestions. Then, buy a couple if cheap speakers or sats to run as surrounds. You'll get some surround activity... Maybe the extra beef up front would be worth it.


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## JonWJ

Well that looks like a good deal, but all I see is the add. I can't find the actual listing on their site, and there isn't a store located in my state. So those 2 speakers would have enough bass on their own w/o a sub? How would their bass output compare to the Pioneer sub?



JerryLove said:


> http://www.frys.com/ads/audio-video-television-cameras-portable-car-electronics
> 
> Primus 363 @220/pair until tomorrow night
> 
> Though there are many good speakers that have been listed, and many good packages to choose from.


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## tonyvdb

JonWJ said:


> Well that looks like a good deal, but all I see is the add. I can't find the actual listing on their site, and there isn't a store located in my state. So those 2 speakers would have enough bass on their own w/o a sub? How would their bass output compare to the Pioneer sub?


Trust me there is no speaker in the under $1000 price range that would have enough bass output to forgo using a sub. If you cant get a sub with those Primus speakers now your not really any farther ahead.


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## Dub King

The Primus's four 6 1/2" woofers will offer you over twice the woofer cone surface area of the single 8" in the Pioneer sub and likely a similar amount of excursion. The Primus towers have the exact same spec for bass extension as the Pioneer sub - 38 Hz. The Pioneer sub only has a 100 watt amplifier in it, and a typical receiver will send over 100 watts to each channel with the Infinity... so the Primus should have a distinct advantage in the bass department vs. the Pioneer sub mated with satellites or bookshelf speakers. 

The main reason the sub might outperform the towers is placement and optimization, but spending even $50 more than the Pioneer sub opens up quite a few more options that would be more appropriate as you grow a system.

The Primus towers will also be the right height for critical listening, and you might find the bass they put out to be a bit tighter, that's been my impression listening to a good full-range dual 6 1/2 tower vs. an entry-level 8" sub/sat system.




JonWJ said:


> Well that looks like a good deal, but all I see is the add. I can't find the actual listing on their site, and there isn't a store located in my state. So those 2 speakers would have enough bass on their own w/o a sub? How would their bass output compare to the Pioneer sub?


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## JonWJ

Well can someone please post a link to the specific item's page? I can't figure out how to order those Infinity speakers from that website. Thanks!


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## Todd Anderson

That 609 unit... a buddy of mine bought one at accessories4less. I helped him set it up. As an amp for powering speakers, works fine. I have to say, tho, the Audd. on it is pretty stripped down and bare-bones. Don't expect a lot from it. Once it was done setting channel levels, I went through and manually checked it's results with a SPL meter... I was surprised at how off some of the settings were. They were all over the map.

Anyhow, in the less expensive units, the EQ packages aren't something that I would necessarily sweat too much over... not trying to say they aren't nice to have... just wanted to relay my experience.


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## zieglj01

JonWJ said:


> Well can someone please post a link to the specific item's page? I can't figure out how to order those Infinity speakers from that website. Thanks!


So you are going to mainly buy based on size and specs of tower speakers,
over other towers and large set-ups, before general sound quality? > Well, 
at least it will be better than HTIB sound systems.


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## JonWJ

zieglj01 said:


> So you are going to mainly buy based on size and specs of tower speakers,
> over other towers and large set-ups, before general sound quality? > Well,
> at least it will be better than HTIB sound systems.


Well I guess I'm not going to buy them either way. I called Fry's and that special is in-store only, and there isn't a Fry's in my state. That's okay though. Once I paid to have those monsters shipped I would have probably been up near $300. Then I would still at least need a decent sub. So even then I would probably be in the $400+ range with a 2.1 system (albeit a good 2.1 system). 

I think I'm fine with the Pioneers. I'm not really an audiophile, so I'm confident with all the good reviews I've read about them that they will sound 100 times better than any speakers I've ever owned. I know they won't compete with the rigs that you guys have, but I was never going for that with my budget. My newbie ears won't know what I'm missing, and I'm sure I'll be perfectly satisfied with them. My only reservation is the whole speaker placement/mounting issue. I'll probably make them work for now and just keep an eye out for cheap speaker stands on ebay/craigslist/yard sales. Or maybe make my own eventually.

The Martin Logan's are intriguing at that price, but I'm just a little uneasy about their quality and shipping based on what I've read. I know the brand used to be great, but Idk if this set lives up to that. I don't want to risk it. 

I'm just gonna take a quick browse around the net and see if there is some option I've overlooked that jumps out at me. Otherwise, I'll probably order them tonight before the Newegg promo ends. 

I guess my only other question at this point would be what I asked about earlier. Would it be better to buy the Dayton sub that some of you guys like, or the matching Pioneer sub? 

Thanks everyone. I'll be around to talk about AVRs some more...and how to best configure all of this of course. :clap:


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## Dub King

The Pioneer speakers do in fact make audiophiles (including myself) happy, that's what's so great about them!

Gotta go with this Dayton sub over the Pioneer: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-629




JonWJ said:


> Well I guess I'm not going to buy them either way. I called Fry's and that special is in-store only, and there isn't a Fry's in my state. That's okay though. Once I paid to have those monsters shipped I would have probably been up near $300. Then I would still at least need a decent sub. So even then I would probably be in the $400+ range with a 2.1 system (albeit a good 2.1 system).
> 
> I think I'm fine with the Pioneers. I'm not really an audiophile, so I'm confident with all the good reviews I've read about them that they will sound 100 times better than any speakers I've ever owned. I know they won't compete with the rigs that you guys have, but I was never going for that with my budget. My newbie ears won't know what I'm missing, and I'm sure I'll be perfectly satisfied with them. My only reservation is the whole speaker placement/mounting issue. I'll probably make them work for now and just keep an eye out for cheap speaker stands on ebay/craigslist/yard sales. Or maybe make my own eventually.
> 
> The Martin Logan's are intriguing at that price, but I'm just a little uneasy about their quality and shipping based on what I've read. I know the brand used to be great, but Idk if this set lives up to that. I don't want to risk it.
> 
> I'm just gonna take a quick browse around the net and see if there is some option I've overlooked that jumps out at me. Otherwise, I'll probably order them tonight before the Newegg promo ends.
> 
> I guess my only other question at this point would be what I asked about earlier. Would it be better to buy the Dayton sub that some of you guys like, or the matching Pioneer sub?
> 
> Thanks everyone. I'll be around to talk about AVRs some more...and how to best configure all of this of course. :clap:


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## zieglj01

JonWJ said:


> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882269036
> I think I'm fine with the Pioneers. I'm not really an audiophile, so I'm confident with all the good reviews I've read about them that they will sound 100 times better than any speakers I've ever owned. I know they won't compete with the rigs that you guys have, but I was never going for that with my budget. My newbie ears won't know what I'm missing, and I'm sure I'll be perfectly satisfied with them. My only reservation is the whole speaker placement/mounting issue. I'll probably make them work for now and just keep an eye out for cheap speaker stands on ebay/craigslist/yard sales. Or maybe make my own eventually.
> 
> The Martin Logan's are intriguing at that price, but I'm just a little uneasy about their quality and shipping based on what I've read. I know the brand used to be great, but Idk if this set lives up to that. I don't want to risk it.
> 
> I guess my only other question at this point would be what I asked about earlier. Would it be better to buy the Dayton sub that some of you guys like, or the matching Pioneer sub?


The Pioneer speakers with the BS41 will do a good job for you - I for sure will take
the BS41 and C21, over the Martin Logan/Paradigm smaller speakers. You are in for
an ear and eye opener, if you buy them >> Know need to be a so-called audiophile,
to enjoy the Pioneer speakers.:T For one on a tight budget the Dayton 1200, looks
like it might be a decent option to try. This would be a big step up for you.


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## needspeed52

zieglj01 said:


> The Pioneer speakers with the BS41 will do a good job for you - I for sure will take
> the BS41 and C21, over the Martin Logan/Paradigm smaller speakers. You are in for
> an ear and eye opener, if you buy them >> Know need to be a so-called audiophile,
> to enjoy the Pioneer speakers.:T For one on a tight budget the Dayton 1200, looks
> like it might be a decent option to try. This would be a big step up for you.


I have the 41's and they are indeed an eye-opener, these will open your eyes even more, and on sale.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Pioneer...-22?id=1218610014331&skuId=5086937&st=pioneer home speakers&cp=1&lp=3
I have these too..great


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## Todd Anderson

Jon - you're gonna love it. Now buy the stuff and let us know how awesome lord of the rings is in your new HT!!!


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## JonWJ

Yeah, right now the larger BS41's are on sale at Newegg for $90/pair (I'll use them for front L/R).
The BS21's are on sale for $50/pair (I'll use as the rear surrounds).

According to the reviews, the C21 (center) often goes on sale for $50, so I'll wait around maybe a month and see if that happens. I guess the SW-8 sub also goes for $80 at times, so I'll wait and see on that too. If it doesn't drop soon, I'll just go with the Dayton sub.

So I'll get an all-new 5.1 set with the decent-sized BS41's up front for $270 total with the free shipping and no tax. If I wanted to, I could slightly downgrade to the BS21's front and back for only $230 total. I really don't think I can beat this - especially w/o buying used. I'm sure I will be more than satisfied. :bigsmile:


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## zieglj01

needspeed52 said:


> I have the 41's and they are indeed an eye-opener, these will open your eyes even more, and on sale.
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Pioneer...-22?id=1218610014331&skuId=5086937&st=pioneer home speakers&cp=1&lp=3
> I have these too..great


Hands down, if I was up-grading and on a budget - I would buy these
and the center, for a real good up-grade. With the towers, no need for
stands, and you can take time to shop around for a sub. The (1) series
started it all >>> and now the (2) series for me, has taken that sound
quality to a higher level. Enjoy your speakers.


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## JonWJ

zieglj01 said:


> Hands down, if I was up-grading and on a budget - I would buy these
> and the center, for a real good up-grade. With the towers, no need for
> stands, and you can take time to shop around for a sub. The (1) series
> started it all >>> and now the (2) series for me, has taken that sound
> quality to a higher level. Enjoy your speakers.


I agree that they are probably worth the extra money, and I considered them. But I just figured that $380 was pushing my budget just a little too much and I had better stick with spending $270. :spend:


...plus I already placed the order.


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## zieglj01

JonWJ said:


> I agree that they are probably worth the extra money, and I considered them. But I just figured that $380 was pushing my budget just a little too much and I had better stick with spending $270. :spend:
> 
> ...plus I already placed the order.


You will be fine, and you will have a real nice system. Good Luck and Have Fun.


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## needspeed52

zieglj01 said:


> You will be fine, and you will have a real nice system. Good Luck and Have Fun.


Isn't this what it's all about :T


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