# Soundproofing my room... questions...



## Tmac

I've built a room within a room in my detached workshop for band practice. I realize this forum deals with home theatres, but I think my questions still relate. I'm on a limited budget and am building as cheaply as possible.

My workshop has no foundation, and is simply raised about 2' off the dirt on posts. Single layer plywood floor, uninsulated. Wall are 2x4 insulated but not airtight by any means with metal sheating for exterior siding. Shop roof is not insulated but is high enough to have allowed me to build an 8' ceiling for the room. I built quickly without doing enough research as I had to take advantage of my father-in-law visiting as he's a carpenter.

My room is 2x4 with 1" gap between existing shop walls, r12 pink insulation, and osb sheeting on the inside for walls (I wanted to use up osb that I already had) --no outside layer (walls or ceiling). I used closed cell foam (plate gasket) on all studs and joists prior to screwing down sheating to minimize sheating contact to studs. I realize now that this probably has done little to isolate but I hope it helped slightly. I built a floating floor with 1/2" soundboard, and then 2 layers of 1/2" osb with lots of Lepage Acousti-seal (black tar like stuff) sandwiched between. Osb layers are screwed together with 1" drywall screws which don't go into the soundboard. The floating floor doesn't contact the walls and I've sealed the 3/8" gap with the Acousti-seal. I have installed underlay and carpeting. The ceiling of the room is insulated R40. I have a large window in my room looking into the shop with 2 thermo windows installed (one on inside, one on outside = double layer) which I had laying around. The door is solid and very heavy which I am going to seal with gaskets. I also plan on sealing the room completely with caulking.

Mistakes: wall plates are directly on the plywood floor; 6 elec. outlets cut into the sheating, 2 holes in ceiling for light outlets (as you would normally with drywall ceilings), and a bathroom exhaust fan with regular 3" plastic duct direct to outside. Window doesn't help but wanted to avoid a 'cave' like room.

So far, higher frequencies (vocals/guitar) are not too loud outside the shop but drums/bass are only slightly muffled.

Questions:

I am planning on adding a layer of 1/2" drywall (I know 5/8" would be better but it's almost double the price) to the osb walls with Green Glue sandwiched in between. Will this be worth the expense/effort? I have to keep all costs to a minimum.

I also plan on building some bass traps and absorption panels to mount inside on the walls/ceiling to improve acoustics. Any directions on how to go about building these?

How can I best reduce the negative effects of my mistakes without spending much $$ ? My main concern is to minimize sound escaping to my neighbours.

Any suggestions would be MUCH appreciated!

Thanks,
Tristan


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## bpape

*Re: Green glue*

1/2" w GG will still provide a good benefit. Anything you can do to pull old boxes out or just use putty pads in back of existing boxes will help

Bryan


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## Tmac

*Re: Green glue*

Thanks very much for the input Bryan. It gives me peace of mind knowing that going to the effort of adding the 1/2" with GG will help. 
I've seen putty strips applied to the back of outlets on youtube but this would require me removing the associated osb sheating. Would expanding foam do anything if sprayed behind the outlets? All outlets are new as I need this many for equipment. If the foam is useless for sound dampening, where would I obtain the putty? I haven't seen it in any box stores (home depot or home hardware). Keep in mind I'm in Canada.

Again, many thanks for the help. 

Tristan


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## bpape

*Re: Green glue*

Expanding foam will do little to nothing - just no mass there.

Not sure where to get in Canada. You can also try what's called Mortite. It's a brand name for rope caulk, kind of like modelling clay. It's used to seal window panes to frames.

Bryan


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## Ted White

*Re: Green glue*

Tmac, there is generally only a few pennies difference between 1/2" and 5/8". Check your numbers, maybe.


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## bbieger

*Re: Green glue*

Ted is right, the 5/8 should be less than $1 per sheet. Its ALLOT heavier per sheet. I used green glue sealant to seal my electrical boxes. Probably not as effective as putty, but much cheaper and for my situation.. better than nothing and effective enough.

Check out my thread : http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...-construction/22601-monkeyboy-ht-build-2.html

to see the boxes I built and installed around my can lights. Not to difficult at all really. The system of hanging the boxes by wire and then installing the drywall worked really nicely although I was using a drywall lift which is advisable for 5/8.
Cheers,
Brian


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## Tmac

*Re: Green glue*

Ok, I'll look for Mortite. Thanks for that.

Ted, it seems up here in Canada drywall is much more expensive for the 5/8". I called everywhere in town and all suppliers except one were bang on $19.58 per 4x8 sheet compared to $10.29 per sheet for the 1/2". The last place I tried was much better at $14.40 for the 5/8 so I think I'll put out the extra $70 and go for it as I only need 14 sheets. I'll look into the lift if I can't get enough hands to help. Good advice.

As I already have the carpet and underlay in (just floating) and I'm not going to be mudding I don't think, I'd like to just let the drywall rest on it and install it that way. Is that a good idea, or should I be pulling it out to install the drywall and then re-cut and lay it? 
How should I install the plugs in the drywall? They are already installed in the osb as you would normally in a drywall wall with the boxes on the studs.
Also, should I bother to caulk the osb seams throughout the room prior to installing the drywall?

Nice boxes Brian. What's the white insulation you used? I can build a couple of those and get up in the shop rafters which are just above my decoupled ceiling, push aside my pink insulation, and probably put them over the light outlets. As my 2x4 joists are totally decoupled from the shop rafters but the light boxes (outlets) are attached the them, the joist would have to become one side of the box. Gets a bit complicated so as I type, I'm thinking the putty would be much easier if I can find it. By the way, does it matter that the insulation comes up from the ceiling and sits in between the shop rafters, touching them? I figure the insulation won't be transmitting any sound, would it?

Cheers,
Tristan


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## bbieger

*Re: Green glue*

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bbieger

*Re: Green glue*

Wow that is pricey sheet rock!! My 5/8 was around $8 a sheet. Don't rest the drywall on the carpet you'll never be able to replace the carpet in the future. Give yourself a 1/4 inch off the carpet and cover the gap with your baseboard. Ideally take the carpet out but probably not a big deal. Seal osb? No.

Your outlet boxes will need extention boxes if your putting two layers of drywall up. If only one that not a big deal. Not exactly to code but just make sure your wires are nice and pushed into the box - not touching drywall and you will be just fine.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bpape

*Re: Green glue*

:T :wave:
Bryan


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## Tmac

*Re: Green glue*

Yeah, I wish I had your prices :hissyfit:

You're absolutely right about the baseboards holding down the carpet. I had thought of that before but completely forgot! Thanks for that.

What I'm worried about with the outlets is the holes in the drywall for sound, as with the 2 light outlets in the ceiling. I was planning on getting longer screws for the plugs as they would be extended from the boxes as you mention. No, not to code but I agree there shouldn't be any problems that way. I'm just wondering how I can 'seal' them to stop the sound waves escaping without having to remove the panels of osb to putty or 'box in' the outlet boxes. If I were to have to do that, I would then get the extended boxes to fit with the 5/8 drywall--I'm just doing one layer sandwiched to the osb. 
So you think not to seal the osb? From my reading a sealed room is of utmost importance, but I guess withe the GG and then drywall, I can caulk the drywall seams in the end instead. The 1/4" gap between my floating floor and the osb walls is already sealed so I suppose I'm ok not caulking the bottom of the drywall.
I also realize now the fan I have vented to the outside through the room wall and then through the shop wall should have just been vented into the shop itself :doh: Not sure what to do with that now. I might just completely remove it as I can always just open the door for a bit during band rehearsal breaks to bring in fresh air. Will have to think about that one. 

The main thing is that I don't want to defeat the purpose of adding the drywall by having outlets/fan/light outlet holes that aren't sealed. Do you think those will really make a huge difference--enough to negate the drywall & GG expense/effort?

Cheers,
Tristan


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## bbieger

*Re: Green glue*

On the OSB, your laying sheet rock over the top of it so there is going to be (virtually) no way for the sound to effectively travel through the cracks in the OSB. But hey,it can't hurt to buy a jumbo tube of caulk or construction adhesive and seal them. (BTW, the big tubes of caulk and adhesive are much cheaper than the standard size).

On the light boxes, if your worried about the small crack in your outlet boxes, what do you think a 6" hole would do? It pretty much defeats the purpose of your ceiling dampening efforts. The insulation you see on my boxes is just a layer of 1/2 drywall. You could use 5/8 as well but I had a bunch of 1/2 scrap. really easy to install the drywall in the box. Just cut the drywall into long strips to fit the side of the box, apply adhesive to the inside of the box, place the long piece of drywall in there, and then score and snap the drywall to the correct depth. I built 18 boxes in 2 hours. (even though I only needed 16 LOL, kind of got in a rythmm) 
If your going to replace your can lights, the new ones will have a circuit box in them so just remove our existing junction boxes. This is probably preferred as the new lights will allow you to access the junction boxes after install, not sure about our existing ones. Note..my can lights are not screwed to anything, they are just snuglly pressed into my boxes. In your case, since you have access from above right? You can put a little adhesive on the bottom of the light and glue it to the drywall to prevent them from rattling. The new can lights also have press in connectors for the wiring which makes things go really fast.

I would tape and mud your drywall seams...its a fire thing and will not take much effort at all. Probably faster and cleaner than trying to caulk or seal them. 

You could probably insulate the fan duct and be just fine. There area bunch of threads that deal with dampening vents. If it fllex pipe, then your probably fine with cramming some pink around it and calling it good. I have a solid duct running above my HT. My HVAC buddy would not let me replace it with flex so I covered it with sound dampening mat like they commonly use in cars. similar to "dynomat". It isn't talked about much on the forum but it really deadens the pipe. Before the mat..DING DING when you tap on it. After the mat..thud.

I don't get the situation with your outlet boxes. Are they sticking through the OSB and open on the other side? I would cram a bunch of moddeling clay in the back of them and call it good. 

I found that it is fairly easy to go overboard and obsess about every little detail. I think one of these days I'll create an audiophile graph of diminishing returns but it may get me banned from the forum 

Have fun!


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## Ted White

*Re: Green glue*

Nice rundown!


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## bbieger

*Re: Green glue*



Ted White said:


> Nice rundown!


that's what happens when you "work from home" two days a week. :huh:


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## Tmac

*Re: Green glue*

bbieger, thanks for all the advice! 

I just got my drywall and now have to order the GG as I can't get it retail here. Now that I realize how heavy the 5/8 is, I'm hoping my 2x4 ceiling joists have enough strength to hold it with the 1/2" osb that's already there. I do have 1x4 strapping as well, but the joists are only on 24" centers spanning 9'4". At 70lbs per sheet it'll be an extra 280lbs up there. Around 500lbs total.

I've taken some photos of the room so you can get a better idea what I'm up to. The outlets are there to see, as are the ceiling lights/boxes and the fan. Note I'm planning on putting in track lights. Also, in the roof pic you're looking at the shop rafters with the insulation coming up in between them but it is actually sitting on the room ceiling which is clear of the rafters by about 2". The room 2x4 joists run perpendicular to the rafters. One layer of r12 between the room joists and r22 on top of that between the shop rafters. There are 2 thermo windows, one on the inside and one on the outside. 4 layers of glass. One slider is missing as I broke it and am having it replaced.

What do you think?


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## Ted White

*Re: Green glue*

Looking good. Have you sealed the backs of the outlets and junction boxes?


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## bbieger

*Re: Green glue*

your really really close to the load bearing capacity of 2x4 rafters. Like a 1.5' off the recomended span for 24" OC spacing. Bottom line, you will be ok but I wouldn't go jumping around on top of the rafters once the drywall is installed or you may very well create a cutom "star ceiling" or ore specifically,a black hole.


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## Ted White

*Re: Green glue*

I agree. I didn't notice them. 

Black hole... :gulp:


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## Tmac

*Re: Green glue*

Yeah I was thinking it would be close to max load on the ceiling. Thanks for the 'ok' :sweat: 

No, I haven't sealed the outlets or junction boxes. That's my dilemma I was discussing earlier. Do I pull off the osb to expose the backs of the outlets to seal them with putty or can I cram putty into the box itself? Probably not as it wouldn't be close to code. It will be a pain to have to pull off the osb. For the light boxes I could crawl up on top and put in mdf boxes but again they are nailed to the joist and the measured holes in the osb are cut perfectly in that position so the joist would have to become one side fo the box. Too much trouble I think so I need another solution. 
Not sure what's the best thing to do there.

I also wanted to ask what you recommend for acoustics, as in bass traps and diffusers. I've seen various ways to build effective traps which would fit my limited budget using 1x4 frame filled with Roxul safe'n sound insulation which is easily available here (but not cheap), and wrapped in fabric. These I'd use in the corners, but what about the ceiling/walls?

I called up Shoemaker Drywall which is the supplier for GG here in Western Canada and they want $222 for 1 case of GG. They'll cover the shipping (how nice). So that's a no-go for me unless I can get better pricing elsewhere. Any ideas? Would using the Lepage acoustical sealer do *anything* at all? I know it's a completely different animal all together but I may have to go that route.


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## Tmac

*Re: Green glue*

So what's the best way to seal my junction/outlet boxes? Should I cram the inside of them with the modeling clay (plasticine) and then use a caulking around the edge next to the osb or drywall?


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## bpape

*Re: Green glue*

You can't really do the inside properly. You need to do not only the back but the sides/top/bottom too. By the time you do that, there won't be enough room for the actual wire and electrical device.

One other option.... You could just cut an access hole above each box say 6" and big enough to get your hand in. Then go back and patch the access holes up.

Bryan


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## Tmac

*Re: Green glue*

Thanks Bryan. I think I'll try to do the inside of one and see how it goes. I'll caulk first and then pack in some modeling clay but I'll leave enough room for the wires. It won't be perfect but it will hopefully help. With the ceiling, I can get up there and really pack around the outside of the junction boxes. Those are 4" holes so it'll really help to do that I think.
Now I just need to get some better pricing on the GG. I'm just going to go with 25% of the recommended amount as it will still give me a good benefit. If I can get a good price, I'll go with a case which would give me just under a tube per 4x8 sheet. 

Any other things to do based on the pictures above?


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## Sonnie

I have fixed you up with your own thread Tmac, since it relates to a lot more than just Green Glue... :T


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## Tmac

Ok thanks Sonnie.


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## bpape

Be VERY careful with modelling clay and any kind of tight fitting situation. There is moisture in any type of clay/putty/etc. that stays soft over time. Don't want to have a big short on your hands.

Bryan


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## Tmac

A good point. Thanks for bringing that up. Being a teacher I see the kids working with modeling clay all the time and in the plastic packaging I haven't seen any condensation. But I will be careful.

How should I caulk the outlets after I drywall? I don't have the longer outlet boxes so with the drywall they'll be recessed as they are flush with the osb now.

Anything else you notice that I should do Bryan?


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## Ted White

Acoustical sealant is all you'll need around the outlet / drywall intersection. Make sure the insulation is behind that box in the stud cavity. Or are you building backer boxes?


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## Tmac

I don't think I'll build backer boxes. My plan was to just seal with 50yr caulking and then pack in some modeling clay. We weren't too thorough with the insulation behind the boxes, but we'll see how it goes. I may end up pulling the sheating off where the plugs are and putting in extra insulation and packing the outside of the boxes with the clay. 

By the way Bryan, I think the stuff I'm planning on using is oil based.


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## Ted White

I'd stick with UL fire-rated putty pads considering the application.


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## Tmac

I don't think they're available here, but I'll have a look. The exhaust fan will be my weakest link to the outside I think though. I'm not sure how much difference the plug/light holes would make db wise but I'll definitely do something to them.


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## kpb

Hi Tristan,

I'm on Vancouver Island, too, and I know where you can get Green Glue locally (at least in Victoria). They also have the SilenSeal acoustic caulking.

Call WinRoc in Victoria at 250-391-1166. I think they have branches elsewhere on the Island if you're in Nanaimo or someplace.

You probably don't want to hear this, but they also have drywall cheaper than Home Depot. Regular 1/2" was $12 after tax. 

Oh, and if you want those clay pads other posters were talking about, I found them at Windsor Plywood in Langford (474-6311), but they were really expensive: $6 EACH.

Good luck,
kpb.


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## kpb

Another thought: If you see something called "acoustic caulking" in the hardware stores here, it is probably a black, tar-like substance that makes a huge mess. It is generally used for sealing vapour barrier to wall studs, and is definitely NOT the acoustic caulking people talk about on these soundproofing sites (there's absolutely no way you could plaster over the stuff, for example). The "SilenSeal" stuff I mentioned before is what you want.

kpb.


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## Tmac

Thanks a lot! Great news that I can get it locally!

I'll definitely head down and check it out. Yeah, I've been using the LP tar stuff in places where it wouldn't matter, but am not about to use it for exposed areas. I ended up getting 5/8 drywall in Duncan for $14 a sheet which I figured was a decent price (for the island anways).

The silenseal stuff is probably great, but a lot of people just use 50yr caulking so that's what I got. We'll see how it goes. 

Again thanks! Just what I was hoping for :whistling:


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## kpb

I think $14 for 5/8" is pretty good for Vancouver Island, so you did okay there.

By the way, there is a Winroc in Victoria, and another one out in Langford. If you're coming down from Duncan, Langford will be a bit closer. The Winroc website has a branch locator (I was going to post a URL, but as a new member of this forum, I can't post a link. Go to the winroc site and look from there). It shows two other Island locations: Campbell River and Courtenay, so depending on where you're coming from, you might want to head north instead of south. You should phone ahead about the Green Glue--they get frequent shipments, but they're often out of stock for several days at a time.

What is "50-year caulk"? Where do you buy it?


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## Tmac

Ok I'll call ahead then before I head down. Langford is only 30min from me. Thanks!

50yr caulk is just an acrylic caulking that is rated for 50yrs. It will say this right on the tube. I just got the DAP brand. Their other cheaper stuff is "DAP Alex plus" but I have found it to crack after a while. 

I finally found some polymer clay at a reasonable price so I think I've got enough now to do all my outlets and light boxes. Then it's GG and I'm ready to start the drywalling!:bigsmile:


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## bbieger

Did you find a place to rent a drywall lift? In addition to the ceiling, you can use them to hang your first row of sheetrock..which is typically the upper row.

What did you ever do about the lights? Also, you should seal up that gapping hole where your exhaust fan is. In fact, you should take a day to seal ALL the penetrations in your living space from lights, fans, outlets, and the top plate in your attic where all the wires penetrate. A can of fireproof foam and a couple hours is all you need. It makes a world of difference. 

Not to tack on another thing to the to do list but it gets cold up there and all those penetrations are a huge loss of heat. I didn't think so until I went in the attic and so all the black filth on my insulation around my light boxes... warm air squeezing through a tiny crack and carrying all the dust etc.

ok, now I'm OT. make sure to post some pictures!


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## Tmac

Thanks for all the suggestions!
Yeah, the gaping hole was a measuring mistake (measure twice, cut once right?!) and I plan on sealing that tight. I have a can of foam and a tube caulking for sealing/insulating and I will do that as I putty the outlets and junction boxes. I will definitely be going around the shop itself and sealing it up. There are tons of big gaps in the exterior existing shop walls where the roof meets them that have insulation crammed in them. I'll also need a little siding for some of those exterior spots.
As far as the lights, I'll be installing track lighting so I'm just going to seal up the junction boxes and then putty them.

The local Home Depot rents drywall lifts but I'll call around first and get some prices. A must I think though as I already have a bad back. 
I will post pics as it comes along!


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## Ted White

Please don't think that the lowest cost for supplies is necessarily locally. Also, look at what the fellow at the sales counter may know about the details of the application. You may want to look at suppliers that have answered the detailed acoustic questions many times before. You'll have a lot of questions once you start. People tend to think all questions have been answered prior to purchase.


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## Tmac

Hi Ted,
I definitely agree. Shopping local is convenient but not necessarily the best for prices. 

Living on an island has it's limitations. I researched prices at shops up to 2hrs from my home and went with the best value. We have no real 'soundproofing' stores here so these forums, internet research, and phone calls to out-of-town soundproofing stores are the best bet. 

As far as the green glue supplier problem, thanks again kpb for finding winroc in Victoria. I picked up some yesterday! At $18/tube, I'm going with only 25% coverage (1/2 tube per 4x8 sheet) which according to the tests done by the GG company, should still give a good benefit. 

*Questions:*

Does anyone have any idea how much I'll be reducing db levels with the osb-25%GG-5/8 drywall system? What's the real difference between, say, an stc of 51 vs 53?

Will bass traps reduce the bass guitar and bass drum levels outside my room? What else can I do about lessening lower frequencies *outside*?


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## Ted White

Tmac said:


> As far as the green glue supplier problem, thanks again kpb for finding winroc in Victoria. I picked up some yesterday! At $18/tube, I'm going with only 25% coverage (1/2 tube per 4x8 sheet) which according to the tests done by the GG company, should still give a good benefit.
> 
> *Questions:*
> 
> Does anyone have any idea how much I'll be reducing db levels with the osb-25%GG-5/8 drywall system? What's the real difference between, say, an stc of 51 vs 53?


Impossible to say without knowing the rest of the wall construction. STC 51 vs 53 isn't very audible. What did Winroc say when you asked them?


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## bbieger

I don't think bass traps will attenuate sound loss outside that much. Maybe a little but they are really desinged to reduce reverbaration and help accoustics. The best way for you to increase sound attentuation would be to increase the amount of green glue. Bass frequencies are the most difficult to reduce. Bottom line, do what you can afford to and don't look back. 

You will be stoked on the drywall lift for sure. Makes life sooo easy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ted White

True. Bass traps by definition are dealing with frequencies that remain in the room. If they have sufficient energy to leave the room, they won't be affected much by room treatments.


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## Tmac

Ok, thanks!
I'm almost done the drywall/GG. Dug deeper and went with 1 tube per sheet. Apparently I'll still get about 70% of the benefit vs 2 tubes per sheet, so that will work for me. I had 2 friends help so didn't need the lift :flex:
Interesting info on stc comparison Ted. Appreciated.


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## Tmac

Looking at my door in the photos above, how would I go about sealing it? I've got a 3/8" rubber exterior door jamb seal and a bottom sweep, but am wondering if there's something else that's found at the hardware store that would work better. The bottom of the door is reasonably snug against the carpet, but I could probably get the sweep in there too. It would make it quite tight. 
I'm also wondering if I should laminate some mdf or drywall with GG on the inside surface of the door. It's a solid core, heavy door but is obviously the weak point at the moment.


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## Ted White

The carpet can't be sealed to. You're only real practical option is to install an automatic door bottom. When closed, this device deploys a continuous Neoprene rubber gasket down to the floor. On the floor is a section of wood, typically. Nice looking threshold of Oak or Cherry. Something solid to the gasket to compress against.


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## bbieger

The mass of mdf and the dampening of the gg would help quite a bit but you should have a really stout jamb as that would be pretty heavy. What about a layer of dw and gg and a panel of 701? That would dampen quite a bit plus help room response. I'd probably go with whatever would be easier for you. Some could argue it's probably good enough with just solid door. 
If you have lots of dw scraps just use them instead of heaping them in the landfill
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tmac

I've got an extra sheet of drywall, but I'll probably return it for the $. But I do have some scraps that might work. I've got a sheet of soundboard too that I could cut to fit the door (2 layers) over the dw. It's mainly the jamb that is leaking sound I think. I'm going to remove the jamb I put in and install a heavier one. 
I read somewhere that double thermopane windows actually makes things worse. Can't see how--any comments? When I have one slider closed and then close the 2nd it definitely quiets things down so I would say it improves isolation.
Now I've got to build some bass traps to get the room more acoustic friendly.

Still have to finish caulking the dw seams and then mud time!

Ted, what's the ballpark cost for an automatic bottom door gasket? Could I find this at, say, home depot?


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## Ted White

Top end auto door bottoms are $80+. Not a home depot item. You will need a solid surface for it to engage to.

The jamb should be fine. Check that the drywall is running all the way to the jamb and seal it with a good 50 year latex caulk. This would all be behind the door casing if that's currently applied.


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## Tmac

I wondered if the auto door seal was beyond what I'd like to spend and it is. I picked up a exterior aluminum threshold seal that the door would contact and seal up against for about $8. I think I'll see if it does anything. 
As far as the jamb, I think you're thinking of the door frame. The jamb (nailed to the frame) is only about 1/4 x 1 1/2 so it's pretty thin. I didn't build a proper frame where you would notch out 2x6 for the jamb (where the door contacts when closed). So I got some 1x4's which I'm going to plane down to about 1/2" or maybe 3/8" and then rip them to come up flush with the frame on the far side. The door will have a much heavier jamb which I'll paint and then stick on the perimeter gasket. Hopefully that will take care of the seal problems.

What about double soundboard for dampening the door itself? If anything, it should help acoustics I'd think.


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