# Upgrading with audio quality as a priority



## kcbluesman (Nov 24, 2013)

I'm trying to get some input regarding plans for an upgrade to our home theater system. Minimally, we will be replacing our AVR and our television. Audio quality is a big priority, as is the ability to accommodate analog input. My working assumption is that I should avoid AVRs or preamp/processors which convert analog input to digital. Is this a good assumption? And if so, how do I tell which ones do and and which ones don't? It doesn't seem to be addressed in specs.

Are there any other key considerations that I should be aware of, given my objective of building a system that's as good at music -including content from analog sources (a turntable and a DAC) - as it is with digital content? And, are there any manufacturers who focus on customers with my objective (that is, an emphasis on audio quality and support for analog sources)?

Here are the existing components I intend to keep in the system:


Rotel 1075 three channel power amp 
Rega Planar 3 turntable 
Sony BDP-S1000ES DVD/Bluray player 
Pioneer Elite DV45, operating as CD transport, paired with Maverick D2 DAC

We use existing system for movies (DVD/Bluray), music and occasional gaming. We would like to be able to use Netflix and other Internet-based content services in the future...this is a separate topic for me to get educated about. We will not be using cable or similar terrestrial content services, but will be acquiring HDTV content from local over-the-air stations.

Thanks in advance for any guidance or advice you can provide.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

With the exception of your turntable all your sources are digital to begin with. 

A good DAC (internal or external) will provide great sound quality. To this end you may want to look into oppo as your blu-ray source. The 105 has a wonderful DAC and you can use it to decode another source. 

You may also want to look into an integrated amp and an AVR with pre-amp out or processor with 3/5ch amp. Doing this you'll be able to ensure you have a clean signal path for two channel listening with higher quality analog audio and still be able to enjoy surround sound. 

All of this said most good quality AVRs will prove vertically indistinguishable from other solutions when playing back high quality recordings.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Typically your bottleneck in sound will be the speakers and material you're playing. 

Marantz PM integrated are wonderful though there are many other options out there.


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## kcbluesman (Nov 24, 2013)

> With the exception of your turntable all your sources are digital to begin with.
> 
> A good DAC (internal or external) will provide great sound quality. To this end you may want to look into oppo as your blu-ray source. The 105 has a wonderful DAC and you can use it to decode another source.
> 
> ...



While I appreciate your response, it doesn't seem to reflect my objectives, or that you looked at my current equipment.

I will definitely be keeping the Pioneer as a CD transport, combined with the Maverick DAC (which of course will appear as an ANALOG input to the HT system). I will also be keeping the Sony DVD/BluRay player. I can't figure out how the Oppo would be an improvement...other than being one player instead of two. If I use its DAC when playing CD's, I still have an analog signal for input to the HT system, don't I?

And, I intend to keep my existing Rotel three channel amp. If I end up going with an AVR, I will use the Rotel to power the fronts and center, and the AVR for the rears. If I end up going with a preamp/processor, I will need to get a second power amp for the rears. Not sure why you suggested replacement of the Rotel.

This gets us to the gist of my questions. Are you effectively saying that neither an AVR nor preamp/processor are suitable for high-quality 2-channel audio? And if so, why is that? I can guess that this would be the case for units which convert analog inputs to digital, but don't some AVR's and preamp/processors provide an analog signal path? Or does this approach have a weakness as well (and if so, what is it)?

Not sure why I would consider a 2-channel integrated amp in the equation. This is virtually the same as running two different systems, other than letting me use the HT fronts as the stereo main speakers. But it would not allow for use of the subwoofer.

My fundamental objective is to have ONE system for both music and HT in this particular room. We have seven two-channel systems throughout the house already...but for the space with the TV, we really want to have one integrated system that can do everything (without sacrificing audio quality).

Frankly, my current HT system sounds great operating in two channel (actually, in 2.1). It's just that because of its age, we are having trouble finding a new TV that can connect to it! The receiver is an ancient Technics, and it is "surround ready"....no onboard surround processors. That's been ok for us to date, since we use the Sony player for processing. But since we also want to be able to start getting content from Internet sources, I assume that we will need a way to process it as well....which means an AVR or preamp/processor, correct?


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

I misread your post. Sorry. Your existing equipment I read as potential equipment. 

Are wanting 5.1 +2 for dedicated music or are you looking for 7.1? Little confused as I think the rotel is a 5ch amp. 

That said why not just rock out a good pre/pro?
Digital audio in from TV via optical or ARC, Netflix off blu-ray, cd through DAC, and TT via dedicated input. 

Marantz, Yamaha, and Onkyo offer good pre/pro options or go higher end if you want.

What speakers are you using?


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## kcbluesman (Nov 24, 2013)

My Rotel is an RB-993...three channel amp. I recently looked at a used 1075 (five channel), and had a brain spasm when I referenced it in my list of current equipment. 

When you ask if I want 5.1 + 2....I don't know what that means. For music listening, I want to be able to use my two main speakers plus the subwoofer...I would call this 2.1. For home theater content, 5. 1 is fine....I don't plan on adding another pair of speakers to my existing arrangement.

My mains are Boston A-70's. Center is Phase Technology PC3. Rears are built-in Phase Tech two-ways....I don't remember the model number.

As to your question "why not just rock out a good preamp/processor"....I don't know why, or why not. I'm here trying to learn enough to choose the best path to achieve my objectives. I assume you are suggesting that I go with a preamp/pro vs an AVR? If so, can you explain why? 

Also, is my assumption that for my analog inputs I should seek a unit - whether AVR or preamp/processor - which provides an analog signal path to the outputs? And if so, are there any downsides to such an arrangement (within the context of my objectives)?


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## onedayiwillbedone (Dec 20, 2011)

Honestly it seems all you need and maybe would want is a smart tv with an optical audio out and a good receiver. Any new receiver will be better fitted for music or movies than what you had. That includes two channel. A new smart tv seems like a good choice for watching netflix or amazon depending on your router and wifi if you have it. The only factor on a new receiver is the speakers you are using as well as how many channels you want for the future. There are a lot of options between 5.1 7.1 9.1 and 11.1.


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## kcbluesman (Nov 24, 2013)

> Any new receiver will be better fitted for music or movies than what you had



Thanks for the reply. Can you tell me why this would be the case, especially as regards music? This particular receiver has a surprisingly good phono stage plus inputs 5.1 analog from the Sony BluRay player.

As noted in my earlier posts, 5.1 is fine for multichannel playback. I have no interest in 7.1 or more.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Okay with a 3ch amp then an AVR will keep you from having a second 2ch amp a pre/pro would require an extra amp so in the internist of space saving then an AVR is a good fit. 

You'll have to look into what AVR has the best phono stage, I really couldn't tell you, though running phono with direct/pure direct should eliminate most of the signal path.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

I was recommending a pre-pro because I thought you had a 5ch amp. 

Beyond that usually preamps have higher end equipment in them but higher end AVRs stack up quite well. To get a phono in you'll be looking upper midrange and better for any AVR anyway.


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## onedayiwillbedone (Dec 20, 2011)

The newer receivers also have room correction. Maybe you also had an equalizer with your setup but if you did not then all you would have had is tone controls for treble and bass correct? Well the room correction on new units is amazing basically it sets crossover and eq for your speakers. Along with distance all through a mic that should be included. For movies especially blu ray the sound modes will be more accurate to what directors wanted you to here. It will just be more realistic. If i am incorrect on anything someone else here will set me straight. Thats why this forum is so great.


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## kcbluesman (Nov 24, 2013)

Would these bass management and equalization functions be available only for digital input (and for analog inpt that gets converted to digital in the receiver)? Is this the "downside" to using analog inputs and analog signal path?

Would I still be able to use the subwoofer, along with the two main (front) speakers when listening to analog input music? Any problems, issues or things I need to think about as related to using the sub for two channel playback with analog input?

Also, I'm still looking for comments, verification or repudiation regarding my working assumption that for best 2-channel sound quality I need an AVR or preamp/processor which supports analog thru-put.


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## onedayiwillbedone (Dec 20, 2011)

After your speakers are hooked up and you run your room correction you will be set. You will be able to listen to stereo in 2.1. After room correction runs it will set your high pass and low pass filters for all speakers. So lets say your fronts are only good to 60 hertz then anything lower than that will go to your sub. It will be the same for all inputs and outputs will not matter if digital or not. There may be one mode called pure audio or direct that can bypass settings as well at least both of my avrs have it. As for your hangup on analog and digital it will not change or reconfigure your equipment on the audio side. All it will do is read the incoming signal and decode or play it as close to what the recorder intended. Both of my manuals state the AV reciever does not convert digital input signals to analog line outputs and vice versa within the audio. The only things that get converted or up converted is on the signal out to a tv. Some people have older video gear and a newer hdtv with hdmi so that signal is changed but it is in the video path not audio. I would say there are people that feel tube amps are the purest form for two channel music but i have never heard one of those systems so i could not say. You were planning on running your front three channels off a power amp as you had before and obviously you enjoyed it and seemed happy with it so you will be fine with just a new avr. You can take your equipment with you on your search and make sure you have the right connections or you can find specs on manufactures websites. Did you have a budget in mind? That will make a big difference my onkyo was purchased in 2007 for 900 at nfm and still running great, my integra was purchased in 2010 at independence audio for 600 and no problems with it either. Also my onkyo has a phono input and the signal in will not be converted to anything just played how it was intended to be manual says it is designed for a moving magnet type cartridge. In your search just be sure the new av has a phono in and any other connections you need hope this helps. There is a place in overland park but i can't think of the name you can do a quick search for audio video kc and find it. Fyi the person i like to see and speak to in independence is Mike Fulk he is very knowledgeable and has helped us out a bunch with some of our gear.


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## onedayiwillbedone (Dec 20, 2011)

Hey read the tx929 review thread it has a phono input, c if maybe this is what you are looking for. Might be more than you need, but always better to get more than not have enough in the future in my opinion.


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## kcbluesman (Nov 24, 2013)

> As for your hangup on analog and digital it will not change or reconfigure your equipment on the audio side. All it will do is *read the incoming signal and decode or play it as close to what the recorder intende*d. Both of my manuals state the AV reciever does not convert digital input signals to analog line outputs and vice versa.


Well, I'm not sure I have a "hang-up" about analog and digital. But it sure would seem that processing an analog signal thru an ADC and then back thru a DAC just to end up with an analog output again isn't going to do the sound quality any good. It appears from your note that some AVR's do this, and some don't. Earlier in this thread I got the impression that to use the bass management function, analog input had to be converted to digital. So this is NOT the case?

Also, confused about "reading the incoming signal and decoding"...with an analog 2-channel input, there is nothing to be decoded. 

If I am reading your post correctly, the "direct" or "bypass" function bypasses the bass management settings and lets all the speakers run at full range. I had thought from earlier posts in this thread that "direct" provided an analog signal path (bypassing the conversion to digital)? This is confusing!

As for phono input....it's not all that critical to me that the AVR or preamp have a phono stage....I'm certainly willing to consider an external phono amp if appropriate. Again, my concerns are about the effect on sound quality of converting my analog inputs to digital, and on getting an understanding of what I gain or lose from seeking to avoid this conversion. This really is the essence of what I'm trying to understand.

By the way...as regards tube amps; one of my 2 channel-systems is tube-based. I would not say that tube is "better" than solid state - just different. I certainly understand that my HT system is not going to be in the same league as my better two-channel systems when it comes to music. But I DO want it to be as good as it can be within the context of using an AVR or HT preamp/processor (rather than a pure two-channel system). Posters suggesting I just run two different systems are not getting my point....in this particular part of our home, we want ONE system that does both HT and music pretty well.

As for budget....I am not interested in going "top of the line"....I learned many years ago that returns on invesment decline quite quickly once you move past "very good" gear and into "very, very good", "great", and "exceptional" equipment. But at this point I care less about specific budget and more about getting an understanding of the features, functions and capabilities needed to meet my objectives.


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## onedayiwillbedone (Dec 20, 2011)

I must have misunderstood I was under the impression you wanted your rega planar 3 hooked up with this setup just wanted you to make sure anything you looked at had phono in. Yes after you run room correction your eq and low pass high pass filters will be set for all speakers. If you change the tone controls of trebele or bass they may default if you choose a direct sound mode but crossovers will remain the same. Your bostons are rated from 45hrz to 25khrz any low frequency's they cant reproduce will go to your sub. Your question on digital vs analog is actually a personal preference and there are benefits to both as well as downsides from what I can find. However with your dac and the hookups your cd player has you can experiment for what you like best. When I choose the word hang up it is because you wont actually need your maveric. It is a dac, so you may not need it anymore. The reason is your specs on your 45 are 192khz 24 bit dac your specs on the maveric are 96krz 24bit most all newer avrs will have 192khz 24bit dacs as well. Meaning dacs are built in already. You can hook up your 45 directly either analog through 2 channel out to 2 channel analog in on cd input or digital through optical input set to cd and see if you notice a difference. If you do just use what you prefer. Yes your speakers will still be set the same through room correction regardless of what you choose. Through every page I have looked at your question is like comparing chevy to ford since we all perceive good sound differently. I have a set of klipsch speakers I love and loved while demoing it was only after I listened to my paradigms that I realized they are good not great and when I heard a set of martin logans and top of the line paradigms I realized being better is just perception of what we feel is good music sound quality. Everyone of the newer receivers have the capability of producing great 2 channel sound. When i said decode i was just saying analog to digital signal input to sound. It was just the first term that came to my mind did not purposely try to confuse you lol. With any newer avr you find I would suggest HDMI from sony to avr, analog out to analog in on phono, try both analog and optical from cd player without the dac and see what you like. Keep your rotel for your fronts and center, HDMI from avr to new tv and order a optical cable from monoprice hooked to optical out from new tv to input on avr. Now all your sound will be through the avr and your 2 channel will still be 2.1 good luck and yes it seems like a complicated process but the end result will be worth it.


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## kcbluesman (Nov 24, 2013)

Again, I appreciate all of your comments...but I'm trying to get input on some specific questions that I've summarized below:

*First*, what are the pros/cons of converting analog input to digital and then back to analog again? This applies specifically to 2 channel analog input (in my case, from a turntable or phono preamp, and from an external DAC).

*Second*, can the bass management function - specifically, the variable high and low pass crossover function - operate correctly upon playback of 2 channel music without conversion of the two channel analog signal to digital?

*Third*, will I be able to incorporate the subwoofer when listening to two channel analog input? Even if the input remains analog thoughout the signal path to the outputs? And if so, are there any limitations versus doing so with multichannel input?

*Fourth*, what is the "direct" or "bypass" function? Does it bypass the digital conversion, or does it bypass the bass management function?

Thanks for looking up the frequency response on my Boston A70's...if I had known you wanted it, I could have given it to you. Not sure why it was needed, though. I have a pretty good grasp on the topics of crossovers, frequency response, equalization, etc. from my years of restoring, modifying and building speakers.

As regards my "hang-up" regarding digital conversion....yes, you are right, if I choose to use the internal DAC of the preamp or AVR, then I would not need the Maverick DAC. However, I don't want to be _forced_ into using the internal DAC. If I prefer the sound of the Maverick (with tube output, for example), I wouldn't think that converting it's analog signal to digital, then back to analog again, will be good for sound quality!! But this is precisely one of the issues about which I'm trying to get specific opinions and facts. 

Side comment...I've listened to many DACs - some 24/96 and some 24/192. For me, the sample rate is indistinguishable as a variable in sound quality. At least for now, I see 24/192 as an issue of marketing hype, and to some extent an effort by the industry to move people to new equipment and media.

Same exact issue as described above for DAC input as regards phono input. You did not misunderstand my intention to have a phono source. My point was that the availability of a phono input is not critical to me...I have several decent phono amps that I could use (in which case the input to the AVR or HT preamp will be line level, same as from the DAC). What I'm concerned about is the impact on sound quality of converting it to digital and then back again...or, alternatively, keeping it analog but losing features and functions as a result (features and functions about which I know very little, and understand even less...and therefore am unable to form an opinion about). 

At the most basic level, I'm trying to understand the trade-offs involved in using an HT receiver or preamp processor that converts analog input to digital versus one that does not (or one that makes it an option). I would assume the trade-offs revolve around sound quality and feature/function availability....but sure would appreciate it if someone could confirm this and, more importantly, provide specifics. 

Your comments about sound quality being highly subjective and personal are certainly correct. However, I also believe that there are fundamental factors that contribute to sound quality. For example, although I'm open to believing that conversion of analog input from my TT (to digital, and then back to analog again) MAY improve its sound quality - or, at worst, have no effect on it, good or bad - my current assumption is that conversion is most likely to detract from sound quality.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Any EQ that doesn't have manual dials/knobs/sliders is likely do via a digital pre-amp regardless of how the signal is coming into the AVR. 

128/24 is the standard now because it can do a better job then 96/24 but like all things audio differences are incremental and numbers do not tell the whole story. 

Direct/pure direct/analog direct... shuts off unneeded parts of the AVR board, IE video or EQ, providing less noise/power draw/and processing for the incoming signal. Some will bypass EQ some won't.


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## kcbluesman (Nov 24, 2013)

Man, I feel like I'm in a bad dream here!

I keep asking the same things, but getting answers to different questions than I asked (or at least that's how it seems to me). But ok...I'll try to get what I can from the most recent post.



> Any EQ that doesn't have manual dials/knobs/sliders is likely do via a digital pre-amp regardless of how the signal is coming into the AVR.


Can you elaborate a bit on this? I honestly have no idea what you are saying, or how it ties to what I've asked. Are you saying that equalization is a DSP function, and therefore can only work if the signal is first converted from analog to digital? What is a digital pre-amp? Are you using the terms equalization and bass management interchangeably? 



> Direct/pure direct/analog direct... shuts off unneeded parts of the AVR board, IE video or EQ, providing less noise/power draw/and processing for the incoming signal. Some will bypass EQ some won't.


On this one, I don't even know what to ask! Are you saying that using the "bypass" to keep the signal path analog *may* result in a loss of the "equalization" function? By that, do you mean bass management? Or all equalization functions?



> 128/24 is the standard now because it can do a better job then 96/24 but like all things audio differences are incremental and numbers do not tell the whole story.


This I understand. I want to meet the person who can reliably differentiate between 24/96 and 24/192 in a controlled environment with the same recording. I am surprised, however, about your comment that 24/128 is now the "standard". 128K is not a very common sampling rate. For what devices is this now the standard?


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

kcbluesman said:


> Man, I feel like I'm in a bad dream here! I keep asking the same things, but getting answers to different questions than I asked (or at least that's how it seems to me). But ok...I'll try to get what I can from the most recent post. Can you elaborate a bit on this? I honestly have no idea what you are saying, or how it ties to what I've asked. Are you saying that equalization is a DSP function, and therefore can only work if the signal is first converted from analog to digital? What is a digital pre-amp? Are you using the terms equalization and bass management interchangeably? On this one, I don't even know what to ask! Are you saying that using the "bypass" to keep the signal path analog may result in a loss of the "equalization" function? By that, do you mean bass management? Or all equalization functions? This I understand. I want to meet the person who can reliably differentiate between 24/96 and 24/192 in a controlled environment with the same recording. I am surprised, however, about your comment that 24/128 is now the "standard". 128K is not a very common sampling rate. For what devices is this now the standard?


I'm on an iPhone sorry about typos and autocorrect. 

Bass management is a subset of equalization.

The ADC/DSP/DAC for audio and the one/s for video are part of your pre-amp section in an AVR. So yes your analog signal path does take a detour into digital in order to apply info like crossover and filters to the content then direct that data to the right signal path. 

No, I'm saying depending on your AVR you may end up bypassing EQ when utilizing a direct mode. You're still dealing in some small way a digital system. 

I'm not an audio engineer or an electrical engineer so I can't get too technical but my understanding is any digital AVR is going to do all it's work in the digital arena.


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## fmw (Aug 11, 2013)

In your shoes I would sell everything except the turntable and blu ray player. I would look for an AV receiver that has a phono input and put that in place. If nobody makes an AVR with phono, then you will need to pick up a separate phono preamp. The sound quality will probably be better thanks to the room calibration software and you will have all the modern connectivity features.


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