# Audience's A3; new true full range loudspeaker.



## Mike Cason

*SpeakerHobby.com is proud to announce the distributorship of Audience's new A3 "true" full range loudspeaker driver!* 

Audience is the company that builds the AuriCap high end capacitors and have other lines of fine audio products as well. 

I met the owner and we talked about making this driver they use in their speaker systems available to the DIY market.

Do you want to build a full range loudspeaker without a crossover? Then this is the driver to use! 

Crossovers seem to be one of the DIY'ers most difficult task to handle when building a 2, 3, or 4 way system. I know this first hand because I've been building loudspeakers for over 14 years. The lack of a crossover eliminates the resistance of the components used in the crossovers and potential mistakes in the crossover's design. This allows the drivers to perform to their full potential.

The A3 3" driver has a usable xmax of 12 mm p-p and a mechanical xmax of 15. This is one of the most versatile drivers available to date. Presently being offered with a 16 ohm voice coil, you will parallel two drivers for an 8 ohm load. You can use a pair of these drivers for your home theater center, side surrounds, and center back speakers. Build them into your wall between the studs, in the ceilings, or even install a pair of them in the wall cavities on each side of your boat's main salon or staterooms!

Series and parallel the drivers to get the desired ohms you want to present to your amplifier and simply choose how large you want to build yours; 4, 8, 16 or 24 driver line arrays! 

The 3 inch Audience A3 driver cones are made of an aluminum magnesium composite. The total moving mass of each driver is 2.5 grams, and with a massively oversized motor structure they are exceedingly fast and exhibit rise times similar to electrostatic loudspeakers resulting in ultra high resolution sound reproduction. The drawback with electrostatic loudspeakers is that while very defined they have limited dynamic range. The Audience A3 drivers, drivers being dynamic drivers provide the best of both worlds; high resolution plus dynamics. The 8 driver system, for example, can play at 123db continuous at distortion levels that one would normally associated with quality amplifiers. The result is stunning high resolution distortion free reproduction of sound.

The Audience A3 is a breakthrough full range loudspeaker driver design comprised of a patented motor structure, patent-pending suspension and patent pending basket. The A3 has an exceptionally flat response from 40Hz to 22Khz, and -20 at 20Hz with very high power handling and dynamic range. The A3 is built like a high power sub woofer driver using a large neodymium motor structure, big voice coil and suspension venting. The A3 is ultra responsive at 2.5 grams total moving mass providing state of the art resolution and dynamic range. The A3 sports 12mm of usable excursion with less than 1 dB compression at levels up to 95 dB SPL.

I've provided a couple of videos from the 2008 CES (Consumer Electronics Show) in Las Vegas.

The first clip is an interview with John McDonald, the owner of the company describing some of his background, Audience, and the direction Audience is headed: 
http://live.audiogon.com/events/the2008/vids/Audience_intv.html

The second clip has Roger Sheker, the chief engineer describing the 8 driver loudspeaker design they sell. 
http://live.audiogon.com/events/the2008/vids/Audience_tech2.html

Roger explains that the speaker in the video is capable of 70hz on the low end. These are their ClairAudient line source array speakers but they are using their previous driver, the Bandor. The new A3 drivers will get you down to a flat response of 40 hz and -20 at 20Hz.

The list price for the A3 full range driver is $170 ea. For 8 or more drivers, I can discount them to $150 ea. Orders for 4 or more drivers, I will pay for your shipping to the lower 48 states. 

Here is a link to the specifications of this fantastic loudspeaker driver:
http://www.speakerhobby.com/A3StatsGraph.pdf

Please visit my website for ordering information and find some useful tips on how to build your cabinets using the A3 drivers. More information will be added about the A3 driver, and updates on upcoming drivers with different voice coil configurations will be added as soon as they become available.

Thank you,
Mike 

http://www.SpeakerHobby.com


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## Mike P.

*Re: Audience's new true full range loudspeaker.*

Interesting speaker. Is there a recommended cabinet size for it?


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## Pinhead-227

*Re: Audience's new true full range loudspeaker.*

T/S parameters available?

Edit: Nevermind, it's all in the PDF.


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Audience's new true full range loudspeaker.*



Mike P. said:


> Interesting speaker. Is there a recommended cabinet size for it?


Very simple. 2 liters per driver, ie 4 cu. liter for two and so on. When building a line array you would keep four speakers per cabinet ie dividing your cabinet with 3/4" dividers. Keeping only 4 drivers per cabinet eliminates the pipe affect, or standing waves. A 3/4" cabinet material is recommended. A sixteen driver cabinet would have four compartment, 4 drivers, and 3 dividers. Keep them all sealed and simply series and parallel them to get your desired 4 or 8 ohm load. NO CROSSOVERS NEEDED! Recommended box size: 4 Liters. No internal bracing is required. Lining two walls with about a handfull of real wool is recommended.

I should have my first driver order in on Tuesday or Wednesday and I'll get some good close up photos of them posted. 

At the CES show the owner and engineer were told several times that that is the finest small full range driver that the CES participants have ever seen. The frequency range is unbeleivable in a driver that size! 

I've included a photo of their 8 and 16 driver versions. Cost for a pair of the 8 driver finished speakers is $23,000, and their 16 driver speaker sells for $35,000. The 24 driver pair is $47,000. There is quite a savings for the DIY'er to build their own. :jiggy:


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## Mike Cason

*Re: The A3 and XBL technology*

Audience is proud to announce that they have licensed the XBL2 technology and is used in their build and design of the A3 loudspeaker driver, with 3 patents pending.

Coupled with the super powerful N45SH neodymium magnetic material used in this amazing driver's motor, you can only expect the best in the high end audio quality that Audience is so well known for.

XBL motors are useful for all audio transducers. While many applications have been focused on woofers, the advantages are also applicable for midranges and tweeters. In fact, the low inductance and moving mass of this motor are extremely beneficial in wideband transducers. Typically, XBL will halve the inductance of a comparable excursion overhung motor, which can result in adding a full octave of extension on the high end. Add in the lower moving mass from the short coil, and the driver designer has a greater degree of flexibility in driver creation.

Compared to the overhung designs, the shorter coil length means more mechanical clearance in the motor and higher tolerance of rocking, meaning dual spiders are not required for high excursions. Combine this with a flatter BL curve, lower inductance, and lower moving mass and the advantages of XBL over overhung topologies are readily apparent.

The A3's surround; patent-pending, is uniquely s shaped allowing for the surround to provide large excursions without shrouding the cone and with uniform resistance in both directions. The A3 spider was designed with special materials and design that provide for large linear excursions and is of a size usually associated only with much larger drivers.

"Our intent and design goal was to do a design suitable for multiple driver use so we weren’t limited with dynamic range or power handling; we just add more drivers".

Mike


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## Mike Cason

*Re: New Driver Photos*

I just received my order of drivers in today. I feel like I've received an order of Swiss watches. These loudspeaker drivers are a remarkable work of art. Look at the extra large pole piece venting! The neodymium magnets are much larger than I expected for a driver this size. Audience has put a lot of research and design work into this driver.

I'm posting a few pics today and hope to have some modeling done with both two and four drivers and will post my results with the next few days. I will also provide an updated chart for multiple driver use.

Thanks,
Mike


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Update on the A3 driver*

Audience just received this driver in December and I was one of the first to get an order of these drivers so we will be working together to keep you informed with recommended enclosures and specifications as tests are underway at this time. We now have an OEM speaker builder who has purchased a quantity of these drivers and have sent a few of them to a University in Canada for immediate testing for recommended box enclosures and performance graphs even though we have our own graphs suggested enclosures that we have received from our main speaker designer. 

My ealier post for the 2 and 4 liter sealed enclosure is for a wall mounted sealed enclosure to eliminate baffel step problems.

Please follow my posts as our test results keep coming in. Vance Dickason has our drivers and is working on providing us his report on this driver as well. Audience feels that this is the finest full range speaker that is available in any market at the present time.

The following A3 frequency response is based on a 6L per driver enclosure and port tuning to 45 Hz:


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## Sweeney

*Re: Audience's new true full range loudspeaker.*

Hello, your thoughts on a open baffle dipole line array.

Thank-You, Lee


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Audience's new true full range loudspeaker.*



Sweeney said:


> Hello, your thoughts on a open baffle dipole line array.
> 
> Thank-You, Lee


These drivers could easily bottom out using an open baffel line array. You would not have the suspension a sealed or ported cabinet would offer. These have the very powerful neodymium magnets that were originally designed for a 6" driver.

I'm building a 20 liter ported cabinet tuned to 45hz with 4 drivers. 2" port by 4.25". 4 ohms, all parallel wired and no crossover. I'll show some more pics as I make some progress. *Update*: [Further factory tests proved that 5 liters per driver is too small. That number was raised to 6 liters per driver.] 

The sound reproduction is supposed to be unreal with this new driver and the XBL2 technology. I'm so anxious to get the first one finished. I'm used to my large loudspeakers, so I'm anxious to be able to have a smaller speaker that can reproduce true high quality music in a smaller package.

We ran the numbers and they model very well with my design. A small handfull of real wool is recommended to add as well as lining the cabinet with a good dampening material. Adding and subtracting a small amount of wool is the tuning secret to these cabinets. According to Audience, wool has a sonic property unlike that of the conventional polyfil found in most speaker builds. I have some Romney loose wool ordered for the extra dampening. I'll be using the better 3/4" Sonic Barrier dampening material on the side walls. If this one gives me the results I like, I'll build a sister for her.

Here is the link to the specifications and output ratings for the ClairAudient speakers with the multiple drivers in their line array:
http://www.audience-av.com/loudspeakers/specs.php
Mike


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Cabinet design*

I'm still working on a design to take advantage of these great drivers.

I wasn't pleased with my first cabinet and the Sonic Barrier was way too much dampening for these drivers. It took away a lot of mids and bass. After a couple of cabinet modifications, I decided to 86 them and start over.

I've ordered two new cabinets from Parts Express. 
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-753

It is 1 cu ft (28 liters) but I'll add enough extra bracing or fill material to reduce the volume from the 28 to 24 liters recommended by Audience. 

In addition to increasing the volume of my original design I'll be adding two 1" ports directly behind the drivers to eliminate baffel step and will fill the cabinet with a handful of loose "real wool" per driver and will not use any other dampening material. 

I expect some fantastic results after all of this testing. I'll be using 4 drivers in these cabinets as well.

I'll post my results when my final driver order gets in and I can get them built.

Mike


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## planet10

*Re: The A3 and XBL technology*



Mike Cason said:


> The A3's surround; patent-pending, is uniquely s shaped allowing for the surround to provide large excursions without shrouding the cone and with uniform resistance in both directions.


Do you have any bigger pictures that show the surround in detail. In the small pics you posted it looks no different than some of the surrounds made by Radio Speakers of Canada in the '70s.

dave


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Audience's new true full range loudspeaker.*

Hi Dave,

Those are the closest pics I could take with my digital camera. In one of the pics I display in a previous post, you can see one of the rolls of the surround from the backside. If you need a more detailed pic or cutaway view of the surround, I will try to get one from Audience for you. The pink noise break in shows their great cone excursion.

I've just finished up this four driver array. The cabinets are now 24 liters, have 2-1" ports, and the cabinet walls lightly lined with real wool. I used Audience's Auric hook up wire for optimal sound quality. They are very detailed in sound out of the box with no break in. They have a very high quality sound for such a small full range loudspeaker. 

I have them in my shop to finish running Linkwitz's pink noise CD for break in for 48 hours and then will take them into the home and set them up with my home theater with my NAD AVR. I'll know better how they integrate with the system, both in home theater and stereo modes.

Let me know if you need more details from the manufacturer.

Thanks,
Mike


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## planet10

*Re: Audience's new true full range loudspeaker.*



Mike Cason said:


> ...If you need a more detailed pic or cutaway view of the surround, I will try to get one from Audience for you.
> 
> Let me know if you need more details from the manufacturer.


Yes that would be good. As much as i'm a cheerleader for Dan Wiggin's work, i hate to see a patent granted for something that has already been done, and it would be nice to see the detail that makes this surround unique.

As these are not a true line source I'd also like your take on the combing issues, althou with 4 units it, in theory, shouldn't be as bad as the longer lines.

dave


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Audience's new true full range loudspeaker.*

Dave,

Concerning any combing issues, I don't notice any. If the drivers had more spacing between them, then there might be a combing issue.

In regards to the patent, I'm sure there aren't any issues with this design. I have forwarded your concern on to Audience for their review though. I'll see about the surround detail if they are willing to release it. Not all manufacturers are willing to give up their critical design information. If I designed something, I don't know if I would do that either.

Mike


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## DanWiggins

*Re: Audience's new true full range loudspeaker.*

Hi Dave,

There are two very distinct features of our RevSurround design, which are quite novel (and make the surround operate in a much more linear - and better terminating - manner):

1. The angle of attachment at the cone and the basket is 90 degrees or less; the sharp angle is important, and is a distinct difference from that shown by the speaker you picture.

2. The area of the two rolls is equal; the diameter of the inner (negative) roll is equal to the area of the outer (positive) roll. This means the diameter of the two rolls is necessarily different.

These two reasons are why the design is unique, and is currently patent pending.


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## planet10

*Re: Audience's new true full range loudspeaker.*

With only 4 drivers, if you get far enuff away, it shouldn't be a big problem. Most of the 4 driver arrarys (not many) are using 2" drivers and some of those allow for turning off the outer 2 above a certain frequency.

With 3" driver spacing, lambda ~ 4500, Griffins paper indicates that the array will transition from a virtual line array to individual point sources and will start combing above this. You need to get into the far field to avoid the worst of it (about > 10 ft for your 4 driver array)










Griffin paper
http://www.audiodiycentral.com/resource/pdf/nflawp.pdf
and Taylor's earlier paper
http://homepage.mac.com/planet10/TLS/downloads/taylor-line-array.pdf

I'm really interested in hearing these, but i suspect they will be their best used 2 or 4 at a time, or in novel ways that minimize the combing.

dave


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## planet10

*Re: Audience's new true full range loudspeaker.*

Thanx Dan. At least the 2nd is different than anything i've seen.

dave


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Finished 4 driver array*

I'll have some "ear test results" this week although they sounded fantastic in my shop with a very cheap receiver. I won't be able to get some graphs done until my friend with his REW gets his microphone and new board. What an awesome driver!


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## Mike Cason

Well, I have them in the home and hooked up to my NAD receiver and was astounded by their clarity and presence. They really shined in the midrange and upper frequencies. I used my subwoofer assist with only four drivers per cabinet and the imaging and music reproduction is fantastic.

Audience, and myself now, recommend that a two or four driver cabinet should be sealed, losing a bit of the low end, but suppliment these speakers with your subwoofer and you will be very pleased. You will be able to increase your spl as well.

I have them sitting next to my large mains in my system they have better clarity than my big mains with the Scan Speak dual midranges and HI VI RTII tweeters in the midrange and upper frequencies. My main's low end is of course better.

These would be an ideal speaker for home theaters with limited room to place speakers too, but yet still able to enjoy very high quality audio. I would recommend a minimum of four drivers for the mains, and the surrounds to have at least two drivers. The more drivers, the higher SPL and better presence will be noticed with less chance of overexcursion. 

The following A3 frequency response is based on a 6L per driver enclosure and port tuning to 45 Hz. I built my pair using their original ported build specs and the following response graph should apply to my cabinet x 4 drivers. I need to verify with Audience how many drivers they used when modeling this graph.


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## Mike P.

How many drivers does the above graph represent?


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## Mike Cason

Mike P. said:


> How many drivers does the above graph represent?


Hi Mike,

Good question. I revised my last post and will contact the engineer Monday and see how many drivers they had figured with this model and if they have a different response graph for 4 drivers, I'll re-edit my post and post their test results. Hopefully Wayne will get his REW set up so I can post an actual test on them.

Thanks for catching that.
Mike


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## Mike Cason

Mike,

This graph reflects a single driver, the 6 liter per driver ported cabinet, and tuning to 45hz.

This link is to the T/S parameters of the A3 driver:
http://www.audience-av.com/parts/specificatons/A3StatsGraph.pdf

They haven't run any graphs on multiple driver ported line arrays with the new A3s.

Audience has been using the Bandor drivers in the past and have recently switched to their new drivers and are recommending going with sealed cabinets. Ported cabinets allow the drivers to unload quickly at the lower frequencies thus reducing output in dBs. This also reduces the chances of reaching maximum xmax quicker at the low frequencies.

Here is a comment I received from the owner of Audience:

"I agree in that we need to offer suggestions for a range of applications and these suggestions do need to be tested. It’s all about which tradeoffs you are willing to live with. I really do think the critically damped sealed box offering the best power handling and limited bass would be killer for the home theater crowd. This design should offer the best clarity, articulation and intelligibility all around. It could very well be the best sounding setup for use with a sub in any application. I will follow up on this as I do want to hear what can be done." John McDonald 

You can model out the drivers with your software using the parameters in the PDF file. 

I had another audition Sunday with some friends and they were in awe how such a small speaker could sound so good. Standing up next to my huge mains, they held their own very well. We switched them from the A/B switching on the AVR and used the subs.

I'll post a REW or other graph when we can get one finished.


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## Mike P.

Thanks for the info. It will be interesting to see the results of REW on the quad ported setup you have.


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Audience's A3 under review*

I've just received word from Audience that the A3 driver is in the hands of two very prominent reviewers. We are waiting to hear from them soon and I'll be publishing a report or newsletter from them as soon as I get my hands on them. All I can say at this time is that the results are better than expected.

The A3 drivers are truely a very well designed product!

Mike


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## Bent

I'm quite interested in their finding as well. 
They shouldn't take long - as their schedules don't allow time to dally.


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## Mike Cason

Ok Brent,

Voice Coil's May issue has a great article posted about the test results performed by Vance Dickason. It is a great report. Due to copyright issues, I'm not allowed to post it but we have paid for a copy and as soon as I get it, I'll post it here or provide a link for you.


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## planet10

Mike Cason said:


> Ok Brent,
> 
> Voice Coil's May issue has a great article posted about the test results performed by Vance Dickason. It is a great report. Due to copyright issues, I'm not allowed to post it but we have paid for a copy and as soon as I get it, I'll post it here or provide a link for you.


But it is within copyright to post extracts for educational purposes. And given the purpose of Voice Coil -- to get industry adverts into the hands of OEMs -- audioXpress might be persuaded to post a pdf in their articles section http://www.audioxpress.com/magsdirx/voxcoil/addenda/index.htm, but then they may also be planning to republish the review in aXp magazine.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1841232#post1841232

dave


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## Mike Cason

Dave,

I've consulted with the owner of Audience early this morning and we don't want any issues, so our short delay in receiving our "paid for article" is worth the wait.

I've got 64 copyrighted photos of Elvis I took in Austin just before he died. I don't want anyone using or printing any of them for "educational purposes".

Thanks


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## Sonnie

Any word on the reviews?


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Audience's A3 review.....*

Hi Sonnie,

Your HT is looking great! You have a lot of hours in it now.

I'll check with Audience today and see if John has received it yet. He would normally get me that kind of information as soon as he receives it.

*UPDATE:* I've heard back from Audience and they are still working it up for us. As expected, I will be notified as soon as we get it. Thanks for your interest! 

Mike


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Vance Dickason and the Voice Coil Magazine review*

We finally received the review from Voice Coil Magazine and Mr. Dickason this afternoon. :bigsmile:

Here is a link to my website where you can view it.

http://www.speakerhobby.com/Voice-Coil.pdf

Thank you for your patience. :T

Mike


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## dyohn

After being alerted to these by Dan W. I purchased four and have been testing them and can verify that the published specs are perhaps a little conservative. They look like miniature subwoofers.  I am getting extension to 40Hz and nearly flat out to past 25KHz, and system sensitivity >90dbSPL at 1M. I'll post some pics of the little 2-driver 6 litre bookshelf units I built as well as some measurements as soon as I can. A very nice driver.


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## Mike Cason

dyohn said:


> After being alerted to these by Dan W. I purchased four and have been testing them and can verify that the published specs are perhaps a little conservative. They look like miniature subwoofers.  I am getting extension to 40Hz and nearly flat out to past 25KHz, and system sensitivity >90dbSPL at 1M. I'll post some pics of the little 2-driver 6 litre bookshelf units I built as well as some measurements as soon as I can. A very nice driver.


I've been anxious for the Voice Coil review by Vance to authenticate what I've been saying about these gems.

I just knew that after some of you guys started buying the A3s, you would see what a terrific driver these units really are.

Enjoy your project and "Let's see some pics!"

Mike


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## dyohn

I will post some pictures. I just have a set in a "test mule" plywood enclosure for now so I could see what these little guys could do, but I found that I like them and plan to build a set in real enclosures this summer. As I progress I'll document the build for anyone who cares to see it.


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## Mike P.

> As I progress I'll document the build for anyone who cares to see it.


Definitely. Looking forward to your build thread. :T


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## Mike Cason

dyohn said:


> I will post some pictures. I just have a set in a "test mule" plywood enclosure for now so I could see what these little guys could do, but I found that I like them and plan to build a set in real enclosures this summer. As I progress I'll document the build for anyone who cares to see it.


In my post #9, I had also built my test mule enclosures. I had actually planned to fine finish them and have a piano black finish if they turned out well, but after all the mods to the cabinets, it was time to start over. That's what this stuff is. Trial and more trial. 

Two things to remember, these drivers love a handful of real wool for dampening per driver, and you can change your box cu. in. with blocks of styrefoam for testing purposes.

We're all looking forward to hearing more from you. :T

I've recently reduced the pricing on multiple driver orders.

Thanks for keeping us posted,
Mike


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## Mike Cason

*Re: New review from Robert Harly posted AVGuide.com*

Robert Harley is the Editor of The Perfect Vision, and a senior writer for The Absolute Sound. His more than 600 published articles on home-entertainment systems have helped many thousands of consumers get the best performance for their money. 

Mr. Harley is one of the world's leading experts in field of consumer electronic technology. He has worked as a recording engineer, CD mastering engineer, and technical writer. Mr. Harley holds a degree in Recording Engineering, and has taught a college degree program in that field. He is a celebrated author who has published more than 600 articles on audio and home theater, including reviews of more than 350 products. His two books are considered reference works for the industry, with more than 100,000 copies in print in three languages. He has written or co-written several papers presented at international Audio Engineering Society conventions, covering topics as diverse as CD mastering technology and evaluating audio products through critical listening. 

Here is the link to his article that he wrote after visiting John McDonald at his home and listening to the A3 drivers:

http://www.avguide.com/blog/the-audience-clairaudient-loudspeaker—-20-year-dream-realized

Mike


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## Ricci

Mike Cason said:


> Ok Brent,
> 
> Voice Coil's May issue has a great article posted about the test results performed by Vance Dickason. It is a great report. Due to copyright issues, I'm not allowed to post it but we have paid for a copy and as soon as I get it, I'll post it here or provide a link for you.


Cool. I'll give it a read later. Do you have a subscription Mike? I keep talking myself out of getting one.


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## Mike Cason

No I don't subscribe. I would like to and have tried to get the free subscriptions for audio dealers and oem builders, but I don't meet their requirements. I get enough info off the web for the time being.

Thanks,
Mike


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Release date for the 4 & 8 ohm A3 drivers:*

I've received an update from Audience on the release date for the different voice coil configuration for the A3 drivers.

From Mr. McDonald:
"We should have samples of the 4/8 ohm in a couple of weeks, then a few more weeks to make and ship, so I would guess about 6 – 8 weeks total." 

Doing the math, that should put us in the September 1st date for these new drivers, give or take a week or so.

Mike


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## jamikl

*Re: Release date for the 4 & 8 ohm A3 drivers:*

I know somebody asked about using these in an open baffle setup and the reply was not very positive but how about if they are only to be used from somewhere between 200Hz and 600Hz upwards. Would two be OK or four in a + arrangement.
jamikl


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Release date for the 4 & 8 ohm A3 drivers:*



jamikl said:


> I know somebody asked about using these in an open baffle setup and the reply was not very positive but how about if they are only to be used from somewhere between 200Hz and 600Hz upwards. Would two be OK or four in a + arrangement.
> jamikl


I'm not sure of your question with a "+ arrangement". Let me know how you intend to use them.
Thanks,
Mike


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Release date for the 4 & 8 ohm A3 drivers:*

We haven't used them in an open array set up yet. I spoke with Audience today and they plan on experimenting with 8 of them in an open array config. 

I was told that if you cross them at your intended frequency of 200 to 600 and up, they should be fine. Mr. McDonald's final statement was "Since I have not experimented I cannot say for sure about 2 or 4, it is surely worth a try though." This would be an experimental project on your part and if they don't work as well as you would like, you could go sealed.

Thanks for asking.
Mike


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## jamikl

*Re: Release date for the 4 & 8 ohm A3 drivers:*

Re the + arrangement - I meant two mounted vertically as close together as possible and the other two making the arm, one each sid fitting into the curved shape between the vertical ones as close as possible and then rolling the two outer ones off before the frequency becomes too high to avoid combing. I think it also called a diamond pattern.
jamikl


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## jamikl

*Re: Release date for the 4 & 8 ohm A3 drivers:*

thanks for the quick reply , jamikl


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## Mike Cason

*Re: Release date for the 4 & 8 ohm A3 drivers:*



jamikl said:


> Re the + arrangement - I meant two mounted vertically as close together as possible and the other two making the arm, one each sid fitting into the curved shape between the vertical ones as close as possible and then rolling the two outer ones off before the frequency becomes too high to avoid combing. I think it also called a diamond pattern.
> jamikl


I'm not quite understanding your total picture. If you could draw something out for me, scan it to a .PDF and send it as an attachment, email me at [email protected], I could give you a more educated answer and can also pass it through our engineering department. We're always looking for different ways to use our drivers.

Thanks,
Mike


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## Mike Cason

Audience is always working on new designs for the A3 driver. They have done it again with their 8 + 8 loudspeaker and here is Mr. Vade Forrester's comment in the Soundstage.com article:

We are very pleased to announce the first full review of the Audience ClairAudient Line Source Array loudspeakers by Vade Forrester in SoundStage.com. Following is Vade Forrester's closing statement:
"I've heard a number of speakers that go for six digits a pair, and some that cost more than ten times the ClairAudients' price. But I can't think of a single speaker I've heard that has combined all the strengths of the ClairAudient LSA8+8 so spectacularly. It may well be the most neutral speaker I've ever heard, and it puts everything together to present memorable, moving, magnificent musical moments. Absolutely glorious, and an easy Reviewers' Choice."

His review can be found at: 
http://www.soundstage.com/equipment/audience_clairaudient_lsa8_8.htm

These drivers are so incredible that more loudspeakers are being released by Audience. In addition to their conventional line array of from 2 to 24 drivers per cabinet, they have now introduced the 2 + 2, 4 + 4, 8 + 8, & 16 +16 driver configurations; all crossover free!

If you want to build your own high end loudspeaker, I have plenty of the A3s in stock to fill your needs. Please visit my website and check out my pricing. I offer discounts for quantity sales.

Thank you,
Mike


----------



## atledreier

VERY interesting!

I've toyed with the idea of going DIY for a while now. I'm a noob at speaker building (only subwoofers) and the crossoverless design appeals to me.

The downside is that I have to sell my current (and very much loved) Dali Euphonia MS4 and CS4 to get the balance so I'd have no fallback.. Kinda scary.

The MS4 and CS4 is a dual 6,5" ported 2,5way system. I want more slam and midbass from my new system. The Dalis have sweet mids and highs with a big and effortless soundstage.

How many of these babies would I need for a good LCR system?


----------



## Mike Cason

atledreier,

I'm providing a link to show you what to expect using more or less drivers. The + series are let's say four drivers in front and four in back; and so on. Baffel step is eliminated and the bass is improved with this configuration, as well as higher efficiency and output. You will still want to have your sub. I am using four of the RLP-15s that you have used in your build and they are fantastic. I drive them fairly hard at times.

http://www.audience-av.com/loudspeakers/specs.php

You have quite a nice set of Dali speakers. Off the top of my head, I would say go the 8+8 for the L & R to get you close or better than what you already have; and the 4+4 for the center. The chart in the above link will give you the watts, dbs, and efficiency for our ClairAudience speakers using the different quantity and configuration of the drivers.

If you will send me a pm with your email address, I'll do some more homework to compare the Dali setup with what we would suggest. Our engineer will be in tomorrow and I would like a second opinion from him as well. 

I appreciate your interest in our Audience A3 drivers. :bigsmile:

Mike


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## atledreier

Would you go with a 4 driver vertical array for the center as well? How would you do a 4+4 for the center? It would be very close to the floor, located under my screen...

Also, I have plenty of 1st reflection damping on my side walls. would it be better to go with a 16 driver array on the sides or 8+8?


----------



## Mike Cason

atledreier,

I just saw your new projector screen in your link. If you are using wide screen video format from your projector, can you buy a few inches from the bottom? Every bit helps to get the drivers up as close to ear level as possible.

Yes, definitely keep the drivers mounted vertically. A 2+2 may work very well for you, especially if you can get a little more room under the screen. That will buy you some room to raise it. You had some different options with your other display. With the 2+2 sealed cabinet, you can still have 113 db at 100 watts continuous power, and for a center speaker, that should work very well. I also saw all of your room treatment. Wow...

After seeing the treatment and the size of your room, my preference would be the straight 16 driver line array. 

Something about the A3 drivers which is very nice is that you toe in the L & R speakers to a 45 degree angle towards each other and the listening area, keeping them just in front of any obstacles that may be between them, the sweet spot is no longer just the center chair, but is much wider.

I'll get some information to the engineers so they will have it in the morning to get their opinions as well. I've got to attend a property probate court hearing for my friend tomorrow, but should be back from Galveston about this same time tomorrow and I'll let you know what we have come up with for you when I return. 

Thanks again,
Mike


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## atledreier

Awesome, thanks!


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## Mike Cason

atledreier,

I've already been in touch with the owner of Audience this morning and I was right on target with your setup using the 16 driver array to get that slam and soundstage you are looking for. Your Dali speakers have, according to the audio review in the link below, a fairly steady 88dB response across the entire frequency range. http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/1103dali/ I found this in another review as well.

The 16 driver A3 loudspeakers should be 96dB according to Audience. I'd drool with a pair of 16 driver A3 loudspeakers after having my 4 driver units in the HT for demo. Read the review posted earlier by dyohn. His drivers have exceeded his expectations and thinks the posted numbers are a bit conservative.

If you have been to my website and seen the pics of my main setup, I've got my center speaker tilted at least 18 degrees and sounds great. My prior TV was the Mit-Diamond rear projection and I built an 18 degree stand for it to point it down to the listening area. 

I'll be leaving for the Galveston trip asap but I'll be sure to check in when I return. 

If you decide to build these speakers, I've got some information you will need to know about internal cabinet requirement, dampening, & etc.

Thanks,
Mike


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## atledreier

I'm a bit concerned about the power handling and spl capabilities of a 2 or even 4 driver center speaker, though. The sensitivity is not much of an issue, I will just add power if needed. I like to demo my system at reference, and I need to build a system capable of that in all channels without worries. So how much SPL can I realistically expect from a 4 driver center channel?

Also, as always there's the issue of cost. Could I get away with say a three 12 driver units and use an AT screen?


----------



## Mike Cason

atledreier,

Ahh, you listen to yours like I listen to mine...sometimes beyond reference levels! :hsd:

I've been on the phone with the owner of Audience and the engineer for quite a while discussing your needs.

The four driver pair of speakers would get you 113 dB at 100 watts of power, which is probably not something you wanted to hear. Refer to the chart in the link.

You suggested using 3 speakers (LCR) with 12 drivers each which can be done, but your impedance may be around 6 ohms which is fine. Most amps can handle this. especially looking at the amps in your HT. Your center channel doesn't use near the power as your mains. It is mainly for vocals. My Rotel is rated at 4 ohms max and my center channel is 3.2 ohms and I have experienced no problems with two different Rotel amps.

If you are looking to place the center speaker behind the projection screen, a screen with the beaded cloth and very porous, I would suggest going the 8 driver line array center speaker. You would start to loose your highs at 10Khz which is fine for the center speaker because again, it is more for vocals. It should give you 121 dB at 200 watts and perhaps a bit more if you dial out some bass. With your treatment the line array may work out best for you behind the screen and your application. Having some of the sound being absorbed and blocked by the screen, the 8 driver may be a big bonus for you over the 4 driver. 12 drivers for the center speaker is overkill. 

I believe you were talking about this or similar type of screen when you mentioned the "AT" screen, which is a new term to us. I did a bit of research on the audio grade projection screens and couldn't find the AT.

Basing your wants for reference level listening, a pair of 12 line arrays could work very well with a 300 watt capable speaker with an approximate level of 123dB to 124dB output per pair. That is a whole lot of output! When I get a concert DVD or BluRay up to 120 dB, it almost hurts. That's where I listen to Roy Orbison with the Black and White album! If you feel comfortable with your treatment and not concerned about baffle step, then the line array would work. A 6+6 would eliminate the baffle step completely, both with the same outputs. You could gain some more on the low end with the +, but let the sub do the work for that duty and your drivers should produce more dBs as well by dialing out some bass. I believe you have the SVS sub and the Sonotube RLP-15 with the pink panther lining.

I recognize your user name, but after so many years in the forums, I can't place you....

Let me know if I can be of further help.

Thanks,
Mike


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## atledreier

I have two RL-p15 LLT sonotubes for subs, in a fairly small room (19sq m).

By AT screen I just meant Acoustically Transparent.

I'll read up some more. I sat listening to music last night, which I haven't done in a while since it's summer, and I felt upgradeitis sneaking up on me.. 

I drive my speakers with the receiver right now (Denon AVR 4308). Whilst it's a capable amplifier, I can't shake the feeling that my speakers could need more power. I used to use the NAD M25 bi-amped on them. I might have to go back, or get som eproper power to them, an EP2500 or something similar.


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## Mike Cason

atledreier said:


> I have two RL-p15 LLT sonotubes for subs, in a fairly small room (19sq m).
> 
> By AT screen I just meant Acoustically Transparent.
> I thought that was what you were referring to.
> 
> I'll read up some more. I sat listening to music last night, which I haven't done in a while since it's summer, and I felt upgradeitis sneaking up on me..
> I had that feeling for years. That's why I have what I have now.
> 
> I drive my speakers with the receiver right now (Denon AVR 4308). Whilst it's a capable amplifier, I can't shake the feeling that my speakers could need more power. I used to use the NAD M25 bi-amped on them. I might have to go back, or get som eproper power to them, an EP2500 or something similar.


I highly recommend the Rotel RMB 1095 5 x 200 like I'm using. They have lots of power with plenty of headroom. I had the 100 watt before and it performed very well. I felt the need to upgrade that one too. These are incredible amps. Available at Audiogon for about $1,200 USD. I've got the latest flagship NAD T-785 receiver 7x120 but wanted more true power and punch. I don't know if I would use a pro amp for my mains; especially mains with this quality of drivers. They do work quite well for subwoofers with equalizers.


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## Mike Cason

atledreier said:


> I drive my speakers with the receiver right now (Denon AVR 4308). Whilst it's a capable amplifier, I can't shake the feeling that my speakers could need more power.


Your Denon may work very well with these speakers when they are finished because they are going to be so efficient. I would complete them first and let them break in, usually about 48 hours, and then look at upgrading the amp if needed. If you have to crank up the Denon to near max, then you will have a good chance of clipping. We sure don't want that.
Mike


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## Mike P.

> I don't know if I would use a pro amp for my mains; especially mains with this quality of drivers. They do work quite well for subwoofers with equalizers.


I'll second that. Pro amps aren't known for their quality sound in the upper ranges, they do well for subwoofer duty where it is a lot more "forgiving".


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## atledreier

Yeah, Like I said, I'll add power as needed. 

I will try a few things first as it's a HUGE financial leap for me. I've been upgrading slowly over the last 15-20 years to be where I am today, and then going DIY I can't just sell the stuff and expect any return on the investment if it don't work out. I want to make sure I have exhausted all other options before I take the plunge. And then selling the Dali set I have won't be easy in today's market...

Maybe I should try building a cheaper array just to see if I can get near the capability I need and if I like the arrangement without having to ditch the Dalis... Or maybe trying a smaller array like you did, Mike.


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## Mike Cason

atledreier,

I don't know how I missed this last post! The notification never came through...... 

For reference level listening, I don't think four drivers aren't going to be enough. I think you would need a minimum of the 8 driver array for the mains and that you would be quite happy with them. As far as the center speaker, four should put you right on target. During my discussion with Mr. McDonald the subject came up about having the four drivers horizontally in a cabinet so you would have room to set it on your existing TV stand plus you wouldn't have the expense of buying the AT screen. You wouldn't lose that 10k and up on the center with the AT screen either.

Audience hasn't tried it that way yet.

I will also contact our design person who holds the patent on the XBL2 technology for you to get his take on this.

I agree with you on the Dalis. I've been building speakers for several years and I would be hesitant to get rid of something I know I liked before going to a whole new program. Plus, there is the time issue of building your new speakers. To build them right is going to take a bit of time so you would probably want your Dalis in place until you're finished. My whole system was almost sold and shipped to England, but I backed out at the last moment. Once you are done and want to sell them, Audiogon should work well for you.

Thanks Mike....:T


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## atledreier

I am a litte concerned with the center speaker to be honest. four of these tiny things just seems too small cone area. Maybe you could try the 4 driver array and see what it's like. And if I build a system now it's going to have to do reference with ease. I hate strained sound, I need effotlessness, and.. well, it's probably in my head, but 4 3" drivers just seem too small. Modern movies see alot of action in the center channel, and I'm hoping to cross them over at around 80Hz, that seems to be the sweetspot for my subs.


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## Mike Cason

I've been writing an email to our builder right now when your message popped up. I'll ask him about 3 8driver line arrays with the AT screen for his take on this. Yes, 8 would certainly be better.

I'll get back with you as soon as I hear from him. The email should be going out in a couple of minutes.

Oh, by the way, don't let those little cones fool you, they are awesome!

Thanks,
Mike


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## atledreier

I am aware that they are awesome, and I don't doupt their capabilities, but it's still physics. My 6,5" cones in my Dalis are awesome too..  There's a limit to how much noise a 3" driver can make with low distortion.


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## Mike Cason

atledreier,

I just heard back from the builder and patent holder of our speaker design. Horizontal is out of the equation. It will not work.

Your concern about the four drivers was a good one. Below is the reply we just received from him:

*The center channel should have MORE capability than the left and right; of the total energy delivered to the L/C/R speakers, fully 50% of the energy goes to the center. It does most of the heavy lifting, and it’s usually the most compromised speaker!

I would definitely do at least an 8 driver array, and it should be high-passed at 80 Hz as well, if he really wants reference levels. Reference (THX Ultra) means 105 dB SPL at the seats, and that can be 115 dB SPL at the array (10 feet away). That’s making each driver push 97 dB (18 dB for the number of drivers), so each one would get 40W delivered. Below 80 Hz, they just will run out of steam.*

Here are the specs on a single A3 driver: 
MUSIC PROGRAM POWER HANDLING Pmusic 40 Watts
MAXIMUM PEAK POWER HANDLING Pmax 60 Watts

I'm running a 200 watt center channel speaker in my system and it does seem to get the most activity!

I hope this clears up some of your questions and concerns.

Mike


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## atledreier

Yes, thank you!

So really I want to go at least 8 each for the LCR. What's the practical SPL I can expect with around 300W to 8 drivers, in room?


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## Mike Cason

You should expect 121 db at 200w according to Audience's specs. In order to step up to 300 watts, your will need to look at least a 12 to 16 driver line array. I'm running 200 watts through a Rotel RMB 1095 and it will hurt your ears when you reach near the full headroom. My living room is about 20' x 24' with 9' ceilings. You have a much smaller room. Here is a link to their chart again:

http://www.audience-av.com/loudspeakers/specs.php


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## Mike Cason

SpeakerHobby.com is now offering a quantity price for 8 or more drivers at $150 each. I would like to see those who want to build a fine speaker more cost affordable. I will absorb the shipping for orders of 4 drivers or more.

http://www.speakerhobby.com/audience_pricing.htm

Mike


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## harleyhualer-sc02

So why wouldn't the horizontal work?


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## Mike Cason

harleyhualer-sc02 said:


> So why wouldn't the horizontal work?


I set up one of my 4 driver cabinets in the horizontal position this past weekend to test that out. I was surprised how well it did sound. I've just sold a few dozen drivers to a customer in NY and he is going to build a 16 driver horizontal array, pointed up towards the listening level of his Berklines. We think it will work and has enough drivers fill the need. The driver array will be about 48" wide. It may be a while before he is through, but I'll certainly post his results.


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## Mike Cason

I noticed that our A3 driver has a QTS of .36 which is ideal for a passive radiator design. Because I am now selling the 5.25" Peerless Tymphany passive radiator, I suggested their use to our engineer at Audience and he ran a graph shown below along with his comments. He's very excited with the results. We are looking at using them with our Audience woofers.

Here is a graph showing what a Pr will do with 2 A3’s(in red and without the PR’s in gray). 
This is a 5db boost from 75-100Hz! (Note- This is just a preliminary software test result.)


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## Mike Cason

*Re: My demo pair has sold.*

*Sold*I am offering my demo pair of Audience speakers for sale. 

The speakers only have 2 to 3 hours of time on them as I built them for demo purposes only.

Thanks,
Mike


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## dyohn

Wow! That is an excellent deal. Somone should grab these!


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## bill13

Questions about hobbyist design using Audience A3 speaker array application (question for Mike, or?) :

I noticed in the recent 'Voice Coil' magazine test (Vance Dickason) of the Audience A3 driver, that there is a pronounced 6 dB resonance peak at about 8 kHz (and also, a 2nd, bigger, (inaudible to most people) resonance between 10 and 20 kHz). 

I think the factory Audience A3 PDF driver spec may also show resonance peak(s) -- perhaps not so apparent if you listen well off-axis?.

I wonder if Mike's demo speakers (use four each A3 drivers in a cabinet) include a notch filter (inductor-capacitor) to reduce brightness in the treble? Is a series inductor used to boost bass region relative to upper frequencies? 

Also, I wonder if Audience's new commercial speakers, that use A3 drivers, include any passive networks to shape the speaker's frequency response.

-- Just wondering Can I possibly consider using Audience's new, or about-to-be-announced 5" or 6" woofers in the same enclosure (sealed or vented?).

It would be nice if I could talk to an Audience engineer about how to passively filter the Audience A3 line array frequenct response, but I don't have any contact info for the Audience company people... assuming they have the time to talk to us speaker hobbyists.

Thanks, 

Bill


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## Mike Cason

bill13 said:


> Questions about hobbyist design using Audience A3 speaker array application (question for Mike, or?) :
> 
> I noticed in the recent 'Voice Coil' magazine test (Vance Dickason) of the Audience A3 driver, that there is a pronounced 6 dB resonance peak at about 8 kHz (and also, a 2nd, bigger, (inaudible to most people) resonance between 10 and 20 kHz).
> 
> I think the factory Audience A3 PDF driver spec may also show resonance peak(s) -- perhaps not so apparent if you listen well off-axis?.
> 
> I wonder if Mike's demo speakers (use four each A3 drivers in a cabinet) include a notch filter (inductor-capacitor) to reduce brightness in the treble? Is a series inductor used to boost bass region relative to upper frequencies?
> 
> Also, I wonder if Audience's new commercial speakers, that use A3 drivers, include any passive networks to shape the speaker's frequency response.
> 
> -- Just wondering Can I possibly consider using Audience's new, or about-to-be-announced 5" or 6" woofers in the same enclosure (sealed or vented?).
> 
> It would be nice if I could talk to an Audience engineer about how to passively filter the Audience A3 line array frequenct response, but I don't have any contact info for the Audience company people... assuming they have the time to talk to us speaker hobbyists.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bill


Hi Bill,

We use no notch filters in the line arrays. The new releases also are crossoverless. You will be amazed how seemless the lower and upper frequencies work together with these drivers without any filtering.

The latest change that may be going into some of the ClairAudient loudspeakers may be with at least a single passive radiator. THE SHOW in Las Vegas had one as a demo with a single passive radiator, but they are not in production yet.

You will need to make a separate cabinet/divider below the line arrays for the new woofers. I still don't have a release date for those yet. It could still be a couple of months out. The company had another meeting with the XBL^2 motor builder, Dan Wiggins, a week or so ago again to continue working on their design criterea and expected results. During my discussions with the engineer via emails, the woofers modeled out very well using the passive radiators, but their final build recommendations are TBD whether they will be recommending sealed, ported, or passive.

Here is their phone number if you want to try to get with Roger Sheker, the engineer. The owner also works hands on with the engineer as well as Dan Rosca in Sales. 1-800-565-4390. 

Audience has an interactive forum too: 
http://www.audience-av.com/parts/BulletinBoard/

Thanks,
Mike


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## bill13

Mike, 

Thanks for the info.

The Audience A3 driver for DIY speakers looks very interesting - especially with the great Clairaudient speaker reviews from audiophile pros. 

I wonder if Audience uses any passive frequency shaping networks inside their array cabinets -- would like to discuss such things with the Audience people. I wonder how the 8 kHz peak is handled in the array -- maybe the array configuration does some kind of inherent acoustic filtering? 
That's why 2 drivers sound better than one driver(?), etc. (in addition to more radiating area).

I feel that adding a couple of extra, say, 5" or maybe 6" Audience woofers on the rear, or perhaps the side(s) of a cabinet might be a great (less expensive) alternative to adding extra A3 drivers firing to the rear (woofer trebles should be greatly attenuated far off-axis away from the listener). 

Separate internal enclosure partitions for the small woofers, and for the A3 driver array -- when all these drivers are mounted in the same cabinet! 

This mounting of added small woofers should alleviate the baffle step-response -- similar to the way Audience commercial speakers which use added rear-facing drivers (as in the Clairaudient 4+4, 8+8, etc.) Or maybe can use other candidate woofers that roll off more-or-less smoothly in the highs .. would take some testing to evaluate. Acoustic Foam might be used to cover the 5" or 6" woofer cones to further reduce undesired treble output.

A concern might be that, without internal cabinet partitioning, the larger woofers cause added (excessive?) low-bass acoustic pressure inside a sealed, or ported cabinet that conceivably might interfere with the A3's diaphragm linear motion & thereby ruin the A3's array's output .. perhaps an interesting experiment. :scratch:


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## Mike Cason

bill13 said:


> Mike,
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
> The Audience A3 driver for DIY speakers looks very interesting - especially with the great Clairaudient speaker reviews from audiophile pros.
> 
> I wonder if Audience uses any passive frequency shaping networks inside their array cabinets -- would like to discuss such things with the Audience people. I wonder how the 8 kHz peak is handled in the array -- maybe the array configuration does some kind of inherent acoustic filtering?
> That's why 2 drivers sound better than one driver(?), etc. (in addition to more radiating area).
> 
> I feel that adding a couple of extra, say, 5" or maybe 6" Audience woofers on the rear, or perhaps the side(s) of a cabinet might be a great (less expensive) alternative to adding extra A3 drivers firing to the rear (woofer trebles should be greatly attenuated far off-axis away from the listener).
> 
> Separate internal enclosure partitions for the small woofers, and for the A3 driver array -- when all these drivers are mounted in the same cabinet!
> 
> This mounting of added small woofers should alleviate the baffle step-response -- similar to the way Audience commercial speakers which use added rear-facing drivers (as in the Clairaudient 4+4, 8+8, etc.) Or maybe can use other candidate woofers that roll off more-or-less smoothly in the highs .. would take some testing to evaluate. Acoustic Foam might be used to cover the 5" or 6" woofer cones to further reduce undesired treble output.
> 
> A concern might be that, without internal cabinet partitioning, the larger woofers cause added (excessive?) low-bass acoustic pressure inside a sealed, or ported cabinet that conceivably might interfere with the A3's diaphragm linear motion & thereby ruin the A3's array's output .. perhaps an interesting experiment. :scratch:


I've answered your questions in an email, but because you posted them here, I'll post again for the forums.

I don't think adding the woofers to the rear will do anything as far as BSC. Audience's large flat surfaces with rounded corners and flush mounted drivers, or the rear firing A3 drivers in a 2 + 2 or 4 + 4 loudspeaker seems to be their best answer for any BSC concerns.

Adding woofers to the internal A3 compartment will severly interfere with the performance of the A3s. A single cabinet can be used to add any woofer(s), but it must be completely sealed off from the A3s with a sturdy divider.


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## bill13

Someday, I might try Mike's (SpeakerHobby.com) great idea for using passive radiators (maybe Peerless 830880 5.25") with an array of four front firing Audience A3 drivers, etc. 

A passive-radiator prototype Audience "2+2" was demo'd at the 2010 Show. 

Incidentally, was thinking about a inexpensive way of adding rear-firing mid -woofers for BSC (Baffle-Step-Compensation) --add separate interior baffle partition inside the cabinet) as an alternative to extra rear-firing A3 drivers. 

The 5" Zaph Audio aluminum cone driver, ZA14W08, (use half as many of these rear/side mounted 5" drivers for BSC as the number of front-firing A3s). 

However, there may be a "showstopper" to this: The mid and upper bass CSD (spectral decay) of the more massive 5" driver may not be as good as the Audience A3 (2.5 gm moving mass spec). This CSD of the 5" driver might just "muddy-up" the overall sound quality for which the A3s are known - even though the 5" drivers would be rear-firing to attenuate the trebles. 

Perhaps the only way to ever be sure is to construct an experimental speaker and do measurements and most of all, listen. If the sonic clarity is relatively unaffected, then it's a good thing to pursue. I guess if a passive radiator for an A3 array doesn't reduce sound quality, then maybe a good 5" rear firing driver for BSC might not be too bad? Sometimes we hobbyists learn the hard way -- by trial and error -- lots of errors on the path! Oh well... 

Bill


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## Mike Cason

Here is a picture of the new 2 + 2 with the passive radiator that was displayed at THE SHOW recently. Mr. John McDonald, shown in the photo, is very proud of his new release. I think we will be seeing more of the passive radiators in Audience product sometime in the future. Our engineer told me that the 4 A3 drivers had this passive radiator really moving and was producing some great results.

Here is the engineer's report from the SHOW's display:

"What can I say but a heartfelt thanks! With the setup we had with the speakers nearly in the corners we were getting low bass that was quite impressive without messing up the rest of the sound. In room response was flat to 50Hz, went down from there and was quite usable to below 40.
The only problem was the large window behind was resonate around 90Hz and generated a peak. Muddied things up a bit. Every one of the reviewers were quite impressed."

Mike


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## DanWiggins

Hi all,

Note that the bump at 8.5 kHz really is NOT an audible issue at all; the response shown on the Audience site is unsmoothed - completely raw. Here's a graph showing the raw response, 1/2th octave, 1/6th octave (what you effectively hear) and 1/3rd octave:










As you'll note, the response is actually quite flat with even the 1/6th octave; when you look at the normal 1/3rd octave smoothing there is no hump at all. Additionally, subjective listening tests have not detected nor complained about this bump. Personally, I wouldn't sweat about it at all; it's innocuous, inaudible. You can try to tame it, but given that it's just 4 dB tall, and approximately 800 Hz wide (a Q of around 10), good luck getting the parts correct for your filter...


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## Mike Cason

DanWiggins said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Note that the bump at 8.5 kHz really is NOT an audible issue at all; the response shown on the Audience site is unsmoothed - completely raw. Here's a graph showing the raw response, 1/2th octave, 1/6th octave (what you effectively hear) and 1/3rd octave:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you'll note, the response is actually quite flat with even the 1/6th octave; when you look at the normal 1/3rd octave smoothing there is no hump at all. Additionally, subjective listening tests have not detected nor complained about this bump. Personally, I wouldn't sweat about it at all; it's innocuous, inaudible. You can try to tame it, but given that it's just 4 dB tall, and approximately 800 Hz wide (a Q of around 10), good luck getting the parts correct for your filter...


Thanks for your post Dan,

I have noticed no audabile spikes with my pair of 4 driver arrays and I've presented several types of music material to them. The music was seemless and smooth between all frequency ranges and none of my customers have reported that they have noticed any issues with this small spike as shown in the graph. 

Everyone has been delighted with the A3s and so far, their feedback to me indicate that the ratings and performance of the A3s may be a bit conservative, in their opinion.


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## bill13

A3 array speakers, and an alternative driver possibilty 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I bought Mike Cason's pair of speakers that use four each Audience A3 drivers per side in a Dayton curved 1 cu ft. cabinet. Mike reduced the internal cabinet volume for purpose of venting - for added bass response -- he added some plywood inside the cabinets. Mike's speakers sound great. 

The A3 drivers have exceptional 'palpable' mid-range clarity, and are extremely dynamic ! :fireworks1:

I haven't made any SoundEasy Lab measurements yet, but even though these A3 cabinets are ported, the bass doesn't seem to extend below roughly 100 Hz. 

I was astonished to find that adding my Velodyne DD-15 subwoofer in at around 80-100 Hz blended seamlessly with the A3s (sub is located immediately behind where I sit - & on the axis midway between the A3 array speakers). I plan to do interesting experiments with these A3 array speakers -- such as changing the detachable front panel & adding a 6.5" Excel magnesium woofer on the front, in addition to the four A3s. This woofer will roll out very low at say, 125 Hz max .. It goes without saying that much trial and error listening, testing, etc. is essential.

BTW, since many DIY hobbyists are looking for less-expensive alternative drivers to the Audience A3, the Fountek FR88-EX 3" aluminum cone driver is a most promising candidate, assuming that a bi-amp'd woofer below say, 125 Hz is added (remove cone excursion demands from the 3" drivers). 

Driver colorations are not as audible below about 125 Hz -- anyway, adding a woofer should be an extremely cost-effective tradeoff ! 

IMO, a simple 6 dB/Oct capacitor-resistor crossover at the input to the separate amplifier for the 3" drivers should be easily tolerated by the ear. 
Maybe the woofer could be rolled off at even a sharper rate above 125 Hz without detrimental results. Could even use digital low-pass filter (such as a Behringer digital crossover) for input to woofer amplifier. Of course, use a higher quality amp to drive the array of 3" drivers above 125 Hz.

The Fountek FR88-EX voice coil is underhung, & has only 1.86 gm moving mass as measured by Zaphaudio, This less expensive Fountek FR88-EX ($18.42 ea. for qty 20 at Madisound) looks like a 'best' where driver cost is the issue compared to the Audience A3. :dollarsign:

Zaphaudio did many tests of small drivers and concluded that the Fountek was the 'best performing' 3" driver tested (smooth frequency response, very low distortion, very good efficiency, aluminum cone, neodymium motor, high quality for the money). Tests seem to imply that the Fountek's sound might be comparable to the Audience A3, assuming a designer can live with the higher Fs around 100Hz, and the smaller 1.5mm Xmax -- but an advantage might be that the Fountek doesn't exhibit a treble resonant peak below 10 kHz. 

Bill


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## Mike Cason

I have just received another review from the 2010 CES in Las Vegas about Audience and their products. There must be something about these little 3" full range drivers that set themselves apart from the rest of the pack. I don't see reviews about little cheap drivers that the A3 XBL^2 gems get. Sure they cost more, but so does everything else that is built with quality in mind.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue47/cesjm.htm


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## bill13

I read the Mike's referenced Positive Feedback commentary on the Audience 2+2.

So far, the impression is that the "best" application of Audience A3 drivers is to mount half of the A3s on the speaker front baffle and the other half of the drivers mounted facing to rear/side for BSC (Baffle-Step Compensation) -- resulting in a relatively flat frequency response. 

Putting all the A3 drivers on the front baffle is only recommended when you place the A3 array speakers near room wall boundaries?

Bill


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## mdk2008

wow that looks like a sick driver! very impressive...Im glad they sound great in the set up yoru using...consider me jealous haha


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## bill13

An update to what I'm planning with DIY A3 arrays in Dayton curved cabinets that was purchased from Mike Cason 

I'm very impressed with the sound of these A3 drivers, but as currently employed, they sound a bit too bright.

After much deliberation of alternative ideas, good way to go is to another four rear/side facing Audience A3s per speaker, for BSC. This should effectively lower the trebles relative to the midrange, and give more bass power.

After all, Audience Inc. doubles the number of drivers by adding rear/side facing A3s in their "4+4", "8+8", "16+16" 'Clairaudient' family of speakers.

Putting the cabinets near room boundaries (walls) for more bass is not an option in my room.

Further improvement: can try fastening some DIY shaped material like foam/cloth padding to the sides of the DIY speakers' front baffles -- to acoustically extend the speaker's width from 9" to say, 15" in order to lower the BSC frequency -- achieve a wide, curved front baffle like in the Clairaudient speakers. However, afraid that this approach won't look good.

Electrically, I like the idea of making a custom (preferably passive) R-C network to be used at the inputs to the power amplifiers. Op-amps might have to be used if need more voltage gain, isolation of filter components, etc.) This custom passive/active network can be designed using "SoundEasy" or other circuit simulation program. 

This circuit can do several adjustments to the speaker's frequency response such as:
1. BSC 
2. High Pass filter starting at lowest frequency to limit driver excursion, and to protect the drivers.
3. Provide gentle roll off (contour) upper midrange thru trebles if desired - including the famous desirable psycho-acoustic dip at 3 kHz (see Linkwitz OB speaker website). 
4. Bass boost (fixed amount)
5. Use high-value ferrite inductors to add R-L-C notch filter in the network at amp inputs to compensate for A3 drivers' 7-8 kHz resonance(set filter Q = 10 approx.). I have a collection of such inductors up to 680 millihenry -- obtained from Mouser at other suppliers -- they are physically small. Hysteresis and other typical nonlinearities should not be a problem for this particular application (very small signal currents throught the inductors, very small frequency band effected, etc.).

Bill


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## Mike Cason

Bill,

I would love to come over and hang with you for a weekend....I would be absolutely impressed or totally lost with your apparant background and knowledge in audio. :bigsmile:

Have you thought about using a ready made equilizer like the Berringer Xover Pro or Feedback destroyer?

One of them may address some of the goals you are trying to acheive. They are cheap too.

Audience has been using different designs with the A3s since they got them, I think about 1.5 years ago, and the front and rear firing of them has been a new found treat, as well as the passive radiator option.

Good luck with your experimenting and keep me up to date. 

Mike


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## bill13

Mike, The 'best' sounding multiband equalizer that I've heard is my old 1971 vintage Soundcraftsmen 20-12 Equalizer. Still works - it's a passive design using toroidal and ferrite-core inductors. Reviewers have reported that this equalizer was totally transparent when all the adjustment sliders were set to zero. 

I would only use multiband equalizers to get a rapid, vague idea of a how a boost/cut in each pass band might sound. I believe that the available filter Q (determines shape of each boost/cut curve) is usually a fixed value depending on the equalizer's number of adjustable bands.

I'm interested in placing a passive R-L-C circuit in front of the power amps to address the A3's roughly 6 dB resonant peak at the input to the power amp (with a high-pass RC to limit cone excursion). Placing passive correction components at the amp input still allows to amp to exert maximum control of the drivers (keep driving impedance low) - better than using big passive components connected to the driver array. 

Some may disagree, but making 'good' small frequency spectrum adjustments using a circuit at the power amp inputs, should not degrade the wonderful A3 full-range audiophile sound quality .. on the contrary would expect overall perceived improvement. 

For BSC and bass response, I still would pursue adding rear/side drivers, and a wide cabinet baffle (say, 15" front baffle width like in the Clairaudient speaker family). IMO, a better approach to developing speaker correction networks would be to use the inexpensive Behringer DCX-2496 digital processor which you can easily connect to your computer (RS232 serial) to graphically see, and hear, the effect of adding a notch filter, & spectral contouring, high-pass filter, BSC filter, etc. The Behringer is actually easy to use due to it's intuitive graphical computer interface. For example, notch filter Q can be dialed-in the result seen/heard simultaneously (The A3 resonant peak has a Q roughly = 10 -- I used my Behringer 2496 to very quickly visually estimate the required notch filter's Q, so far). 

Yes, the digital Behringer is a bit colored, but still very good to point you in the right direction - it's not just for crossovers. 

After you determine your desired overall corrective network response characteristics, you could use a crossover network simulation program to design an equivalent (passive) network to place at the inputs to your power amps (use SoundEasy BoxCad, or other simulation program). 

Bill


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## bill13

*Audience's A3: Make DIY 'heroic' closed cabinet, or an Open Baffle?*

onder:
I just received Feb 2010 issue of "Audio Express" in which nicely shaped, stacked, woofer and midrange laminated-layer boxes were featured on page 6. Heroic DIY dedication! :clap::clap:

The external shapes of these woofer & midrange boxes were a sort of truncated double pyramid. 

The shaped woofer enclosure was laboriously constructed by cutting & shaping & drilling 62 sections (62 laminated flanges) made from 22mm MDF. Clamps (25cm and 80cm) were use to affix the layers (flanges) for assembly/gluing. :huh:

Similarly, the midrange enclosure was made from 18 layers (shaped MDF flanges) glued together. The builder of these cabinets said that he used a table saw and a disk saw for cutting & a router was used to recess the drivers ... apparently, no CNC tooling was used. Four layers of matte, and two layers of gloss lacquer were applied for finishing.

For me, it was 'scary' to consider amount of DIY work evolved! :yikes: Or, have 'em built.:dontknow::spend:

If I can't find an easier, or cheaper, way to obtain sealed curved enclosures for my A3 arrays (curved cabinets roughly 15" wide like the expensive Audience 'Clairaudient' speakers), then might consider some kind of U-shaped open baffle {OB} approach where the A3 driver arrays will only be asked to cover say, at most, 100+ Hz on up. :T

Use enough A3 drivers to make up for some acoustic cancellation at the low end of the range. onder: I believe that the front-to-rear acoustic path length can be made long enough in an acceptably sized OB speaker to avoid too much cancellation from 100 Hz on up (OB's have 6 dB/octave roll off rate - see Linkwitz). 

Closed enclosure is probably best for an Audience A3 array, but OB may be good alternative. See Linkwitz OB speaker construction website for basic applicable OB acoustic theory.

IMO, open-baffle allows use of lightweight semi-flexible baffle wall-materials, (also, could do flexible constrained-layers) , promoting quick & easy prototype speaker construction. :T

Bill


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## bill13

*Audience's A3; DIY build two pairs of '4+4' for bedroom TV, & for computer monitor*

Update on what I'm doing with Audience A3 drivers these days. 

Building two pair of '4+4' in inexpensive Dayton rectangular 1/2 cu ft cabinets, for 1. bedroom TV system, & 2. for computer monitor system. 

Originally considered saving money by building '2+2' speakers (use half as many A3 drivers) in Dayton 1/2 cu ft rectangular cabinets & with 6.5" passive radiator(s), like the picture of the Audience Clairaudient prototypes at the 2010 Show(?).

IMO, the sonically preferred '4+4' configuration offers a boost in acoustic radiation efficiency and power handling/lower distortion -- and also, the bass output might be higher quality (passive radiators, and vented alignments, shift phase, etc.).

Plan is to use a very-different DIY variation of quasi-aperiodic loading in my DIY '4+4' Dayton cabinets -- idea is to reduce low-frequency speaker impedance rise compared to typical sealed-cabinet loading of drivers. 

Might also use a simple RC circuit at input to power amps -- this will be a custom arrangement compatible with my 'IcePower' based power amps. IMO, IcePower, a 'class D' technology, sounds great with the A3s -- incidentally, Audience's class D amp reportedly sounded better than another amp in the recent March Stereophile-sponsored Florida Show. 

BTW, I understand from Mike Cason that Audience Inc. has recently discontinued the original 16-ohm VC version of the A3, and in the future will be selling their dual-voice-coil version of the A3. Reportedly, none of the A3 parameters will change when both VCs are series-connected to get 16 ohm impedance -- hope they sound the same :dontknow:. 

So, I will be adding ("mix 'n match") some of the new dual VC drivers in with my older 16-ohm A3s for the DIY '4+4' speakers. 

Bill 

Read more: Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com - Reply to Topic http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=16344#ixzz0ivHtLYXJ


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## bill13

*Audience's A3; another update on DIY efforts*

Additional comments re my DIY "4+4" speakers.

Of course, My A3 drivers can be used for other DIY speaker designs -- if the 1/2 cu ft rectangular Dayton cabinets just can't be made to sound OK with added internal coatings and external dampening material(s) - the final cabinet appearance may not be as good as original naked cabinets, but still OK. 

Quasi aperiodic loading is expected to reduce back-pressure on drivers and the cabinet walls - less resonance excitation.

Rectangular Dayton cabinet was chosen over Dayton curved cabinet because have to mount four drivers on the back of the cabinet. 
BTW, I have a pair of 1 cu ft curved Dayton cabinets originally used for Mike Cason's array of four A3 drivers, but feel that these cabinets are just too big to fit in allotted room space, and size is a WAF consideration.

Optimism: My Monitor Audio 'Silver S1' cabinets have even a worse audible resonance than the rectangular Dayton 1/2 cu ft cabs when tapped - yet these MA speakers still manage to sound good. 

Also, VMPS speakers use interior borosilicate coatings (Acousti-coat) on MDF for apparently good results.

Yes, there are better enclosures. 
Before getting the Dayton cabinets, I did pursue alternatives including something like the nice Audience 15" wide, closed, curved cabinets - now made using {expensive} & laborious CNC machining, etc. 

Also initially considered an open-baffle configuration but the physical size is a problem -- if all else fails, may go back and pursue a better cabinet/more heroic bracing and so forth. 
For an OB, could use light weight constrained-layer materials (ref 1998 Audio Express article on 'student' OB)

My woodworking skills and equipment are marginal compared to (most?) other hobbyists. 
So the Dayton cabinets are a compromise -- 

If my DIY concept shows strong promise, maybe next year will spend the big bucks to hire a local skilled woodworker to make really good cabinets -- by then should have a better ideas how to improve cabinet width/shape, suppress resonances, improve BSC, and so forth.

Maybe in a year or two, would like to try/evaluate adding a RAAL ribbon in at say 6 or 7 kHz using some kind of optimum (coherent) group-delay ckt -- dare I say, 'crossover'. Adding a RAAL might not be so ridiculous with A3s, considering Vance Dickason in his recent VC mag review, suggested a 6kHz crossover if a tweeter were to be used with A3s. :dontknow:

BTW, the January 2002 and February 2002 issues of "Audio Express" had a great article about using layers of fiberglass in open-back enclosures ("The Infinite Box Concept") for enhanced bass response & rear-wave reduction, etc. The Feb 02 issue also had interesting 'panel dampening studies'.onder:

Bill


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