# GR AV-1RS build



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

Thought I would start up this thread as my AV-1RS progresses. I can't really call this DIY because I am having Danny assemble the circuit and Elemental Designs build the cabinet. Kind of fun though to be able to coordinate the building of the speakers.

Here are pictures of the enclosures which just came in today. They are much heavier than I expected them to be. I haven't decided if I am going to paint them or veneer them. Anyone know how to join the corners when veneering? Other than that it would be pretty easy to veneer these.

What the **** happened to the add attachments button? :wtf:
Guess I will post pictures later...

edit: not sure what is going on with the pictures here, but I uploaded them here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/dvenardos/20090207Audio?authkey=I3vFGzSpwYw&feat=directlink

veneer pictures:
http://picasaweb.google.com/dvenardos/Av1rs?authkey=Gv1sRgCOXw3sL01YrGMg&feat=directlink

I used Band-It paper backed birch veneer the small pack was just enough to finish the pair:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000DZD07C

Progress update 7/5/09 (posted over at Danny's circle also):
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been working on a bunch of projects and finally got back to my AV-1RS.
Thought I would post some pics on my network assembly and post some first time builder comments.
I was almost done when I snapped the wire on the 20uf cap trying a little to hard to get the heat shrink tubing in place. :doh! 1:

I copied Danny's board from a post over at audio circle and started with the positive circuit because it is simpler in this configuration than the negative circuit because in the negative circuit you have to create a jumper from the 20uf cap to the .33 m inductor. The hardest part for a new builder is getting the wires twisted properly so that you can solder them together it definitely takes some skill especially if you haven't done any soldering in awhile. The inductors also act as a big heat sink so while the copper wire heats up fast I couldn't get the inductors hot enough to melt the solder, not sure what is the best way to wrap the wires including the inductors to make sure that you get a good solder joint with the inductor wire not heating up that much. I could of used a little more heat shrink tubing, didn't have any left over to do the connections on the binding cups and woofers/tweeters so I will have to pick some up.

Hope this is helpful to others.

Starting the boards:

























Positive circuit complete:

















One board complete:
I wouldn't recommend that negative joint with the jumper wire, cup terminal wire, tweeter terminal wire, and inductor that was not easy to twist because there was no small wire.









I wired this one to avoid all the wires in the negative junction in the other board but then broke the wire at the base of the cap. :doh! 1:









Both boards:


----------



## myaudiocd (Mar 5, 2008)

Looking forward to your pics. Love to see a good project!


----------



## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

dvenardos said:


> Here are pictures of the enclosures which just came in today. They are much heavier than I expected them to be. Anyone know how to join the corners when veneering? Other than that it would be pretty easy to veneer these.


Looks like thick MDF, 3/4 inch? I'm not sure what you mean about joining corners on veneer? You generally apply one face and finish it flush to the edge. Then you apply the adjoining face which will cover the first veneer edge (all .042 inches of it). The edge of this layer of veneer is sanded ( ever so slightly) at a 45 degree angle. 
Cutting out the round holes will be more of a challenge if you don't have a lot of tools...


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

django1 said:


> Looks like thick MDF, 3/4 inch?


Yep, good eye it is 3/4.


django1 said:


> The edge of this layer of veneer is sanded ( ever so slightly) at a 45 degree angle.


This is the part that I wasn't sure about how do you make it look like it is a solid piece of wood instead of pieces of veneer butted up next to each other.


----------



## woofersus (May 6, 2008)

I would imagine that since the veneer is so thin, as long as you were neat about it there wouldn't be much of an edge to deal with. Since it's real wood, when you sand the exposed edge, it should look pretty much like a solid piece - the grain and wood color will still be there once it's sanded to a nice 45 degree angle. The only better way is to bend/wrap the veneer, but that seems like it would be much more difficult.

I've been tempted to do something DIY for some time because I think it would be really fun to have something really unique and taylored to my tastes, but I wouldn't be willing to live with something that looked homade and I doubt my skills to make a really nice cabinet - especially since I'm not super fond of basic square boxes and curves are probably especially difficult. I anybody here is a master carpenter and wants to build colaborate with me on a sweet cabinet design let me know.  I have a friend who is accomplished enough with solidworks to make up detailed plans for whatever we want.

dvenardos - those are interesting looking enclosures. Is the idea to wall mount? Are they surrounds?


----------



## myaudiocd (Mar 5, 2008)

http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=113

he's prolly busy sanding....this is the speaker he's building, i think. Looks very nice.


----------



## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

dvenardos said:


> Yep, good eye it is 3/4.
> 
> This is the part that I wasn't sure about how do you make it look like it is a solid piece of wood instead of pieces of veneer butted up next to each other.


Well, to my eye, veneer always looks like veneer. A solid piece of wood has face grain and edge grain. Typically when something is veneered you only have one type of grain on all faces. 
Now, this is something veneered from Ikea and it looks pretty good and is made as I previously described. But you can see that they took the trouble of using different types of veneer on the top and on the edge.







[/IMG]
I would think that bending the veneer over a 90 degree edge would be nearly impossible to do in any practical way. The x-ls encore got around this by rounding the edge. Veneering over a rounded edge would, in my view, require a master class in veneering or at the very least, great determination and plenty of time. I've done a fair amount of veneering and some cabinet making and would not attempt to make something like the x-ls encore without deciding to make a commitment to improving my skills. YMMV


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

myaudiocd said:


> http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=113
> 
> he's prolly busy sanding....this is the speaker he's building, i think. Looks very nice.


Yep, that's the speaker. 


django1 said:


> Well, to my eye, veneer always looks like veneer. A solid piece of wood has face grain and edge grain. Typically when something is veneered you only have one type of grain on all faces.
> Now, this is something veneered from Ikea and it looks pretty good and is made as I previously described. But you can see that they took the trouble of using different types of veneer on the top and on the edge.


That looks good and is what I am trying to achieve. I have never done any veneering, so this will be great experience.


----------



## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

Just in case you don't know, paper backed veneer is much easier too work with. You can get it "pre- glued", you apply it with an iron. Otherwise you need to glue it, generally with contact cement. The iron on variety works well if they have it in the species you want. Usually you apply oversize pieces and trim them once glued. The trimming is the part you want to read up on to make sure you use a good technique. It is not an overly challenging project if you have minimal skills and savvy. Good luck!


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

What do you guys think about this oak veneer stained dark?
http://www.veneersupplies.com/product_info.php?cPath=51_75_71&products_id=3736


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

bump, no one has an opinion about veneer? Who are you and what did you do with guys that usually hang out around here? :ufo:


----------



## rsa (Dec 9, 2008)

I think you should go with the Macassar Ebony...


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

rsa said:


> I think you should go with the Macassar Ebony...


Is that gold plated or what? :dizzy:


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

You can see my set and another in the factory at ed here:
http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=422

Update:
I am getting ready to veneer these ( I went with white birch which I will stain to match my floor) and my network and drivers are enroute from GR. I decided to assembly the network myself, so I will post pictures of the process.


----------



## cburbs (Mar 27, 2007)

Can't wait to see the progress. 

On a side note I have my boxes being built and Danny is sending the crossovers for the Neo2x.


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

added veneer pictures:
http://picasaweb.google.com/dvenardos/Av1rs?authkey=Gv1sRgCOXw3sL01YrGMg&feat=directlink

This is my first time ever veneering something. I used the iron on method:
http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips/ironon.html

I have some spots that aren't taking the stain. I think I will sand those spots before applying the second coat of stain. I am using minwax plantation walnut rub on, the veneer is birch.


----------



## persisting1 (Feb 8, 2009)

dvenardos said:


> added veneer pictures:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/dvenardos/Av1rs?authkey=Gv1sRgCOXw3sL01YrGMg&feat=directlink
> 
> This is my first time ever veneering something. I used the iron on method:
> ...


Wow looking good.

I'm still "scared" to veneer.


----------



## snowmanick (Oct 16, 2007)

Those are looking great. It is an interesting design idea that Danny came up with, I'm looking forward to the final install pics and your impressions.


----------



## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

Those are looking FANTASTIC, dvenardos! I gotta tell you, the A/V-1RS are REALLLLLLLLLLLY impressing me for surround speakers. It doesn't quite have much low end, but it outputs a massive sound and disappears completely!


----------



## quadman (Mar 7, 2008)

dvenardos said:


> What do you guys think about this oak veneer stained dark?
> http://www.veneersupplies.com/product_info.php?cPath=51_75_71&products_id=3736


Your link is to a walnut veneer.

My thoughts on staining are.... if it's a common, not particularly unique type of wood like Birch, Maple, Poplar, Pine and even oak.... stain away to your hearts content to get the hue/look you are after.

If it's a species that has a lot of color or character like Walnut, Cherry (which patinas and darkens over time naturally), Mahogany, Macassar Ebony, Rosewood, Koa, Zebrawood etc.... then I would NEVER stain them at all. I would just finish them with a clear lacquer or shellac and allow the natural beauty to be seen. The only thing I would even consider would be adding a bit of color to the lacquer or shellac to get a certain "hue" to the over all look. Like a touch of yellow/orange to give an "ambering" effect to a brownish colored wood to make it look aged or a touch of red like AV123 does to the rosewood on Rockets.


----------



## quadman (Mar 7, 2008)

dvenardos said:


> added veneer pictures:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/dvenardos/Av1rs?authkey=Gv1sRgCOXw3sL01YrGMg&feat=directlink
> 
> This is my first time ever veneering something. I used the iron on method:
> ...



Birch is not a very easy wood to stain. It does NOT take stain evenly at all. What needs to be done on things like Birch, Poplar and Pine, is a pre-wash coat prior to staining. I usually use a 50/50 cut of dewaxed shellac and denatured alcohol. Apply at least two coats of the wash, then use a gel type stain (like you have in that particular minwax product). You will get a VERY even coat of color and not have the blotches. You can then "tone" the color by adding dye or toner (just like is used to tint paint) added to some regular shellac. Apply several coats of the shellac/toner until you get the desired look you want, then finish off with catalized laqueur or varnish (polyeurathane) of choice.

It may seem a bit daunting, but shellac is EXTREMELY easy to use, dries in an hour or less and can easily be completely removed by wiping with denatured alcohol (even after it dries), if you somehow "get it wrong" or want a different look.

But the real key to a beautiful finish on something like Birch, is the one to several coats of the 50/50 (shellac and denatured alcohol) wash coat before ever applying any type of stain. Sanding will be of no use in getting those spots to take the stain any darker. 

And, FWIW.... the mass market wood "pre-treaters" like from Minwax, are basically junk. It's MUCH easier to mix your own. That way, you can experiment on scrap from your project to get the right mix of shellac to denatured alcohol that's going to give you the results you are looking for. The key to a great looking stain job? Practice, practice, practice on scrap until you get it just right for that project.


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

Thanks for the comments guys and for the tips quadman.
I used Band-It paper backed birch veneer, the small pack was just enough to finish the pair:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000DZD07C


----------



## quadman (Mar 7, 2008)

dvenardos said:


> Thanks for the comments guys and for the tips quadman.
> I used Band-It paper backed birch veneer, the small pack was just enough to finish the pair:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000DZD07C



No problem.... before you go any farther, go over to Lowes or HD and pick up a cut piece of Birch plywood and experiment on it. It should work up similar due to the plywood also using a veneer face.

Or, for a nice bottle of wine, send me the pieces and a pic of what you are wanting and I'll fix it right up for you. Although, it won't be perfect since it's already had some stain applied, I can work with it and get you a nice beautiful finish.


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

Hey, thanks for the offer. :toast:
I have got some scrap veener and some birch plywood here that I can play around with. I am actually really happy with it so far. It has that cool rustic look to it and definitely doesn't look off the shelf. I just want to work with the couple of spots to get them a bit darker, but so far I like it a lot.


quadman said:


> No problem.... before you go any farther, go over to Lowes or HD and pick up a cut piece of Birch plywood and experiment on it. It should work up similar due to the plywood also using a veneer face.
> 
> Or, for a nice bottle of wine, send me the pieces and a pic of what you are wanting and I'll fix it right up for you. Although, it won't be perfect since it's already had some stain applied, I can work with it and get you a nice beautiful finish.


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

quadman said:


> I usually use a 50/50 cut of dewaxed shellac and denatured alcohol.


It looks like this would be the product to get although it appears to be hard to find:
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=72
This one seems to be everywhere:
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductID=31


----------



## Jason Brent (Mar 28, 2009)

Do any of you guys have pics of these guys installed in your rooms?

I'm guessing that you would use the Dolby recommendations of 90-110 degree placement relative to the seating position is good?

And lastly, those with experience...do you think this would be a better solution for surrounds in a 5. setup with rockets over the rss 300's??


----------



## cburbs (Mar 27, 2007)

Jason

I think this may help you - 

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=63659.0


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

Add progress update with network pics to original post.


We need to get this moved to the DIY section.

edit:
After looking at one of the Ninja's networks I see how bad my wire wrapping is, but figuring out how to do that properly was definitely the hardest part for me. :embarass:


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

Wired and working. :thumbsup:


----------



## The Ninja (Feb 11, 2009)

:biglaugh:


----------



## cburbs (Mar 27, 2007)

Now that you have had these for a while what are your impressions?


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

Okay, I am embarrassed to admit that I have these set out to mount on the wall this weekend. :embarass:
I have this story about how I bought wire from Jethro to run new inwall cable and it got lost in the mail, and then...


cburbs said:


> Now that you have had these for a while what are your impressions?


----------



## cburbs (Mar 27, 2007)

Well once you get them running let us know.


----------



## cburbs (Mar 27, 2007)

Any update on this???????


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

Saturday before any Christmas shopping.


----------



## cburbs (Mar 27, 2007)

Christmas shoppping - shouldn't you be done with that already?


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

Yes, and these speakers have been finished for months too. :snaggletooth:


cburbs said:


> Christmas shoppping - shouldn't you be done with that already?


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

Okay, Chad shamed me into finishing this project.
Building the speakers was fun, but rewiring my living room was not. When I bought my house there was no attic access, I created some to do electrical and low voltage rewiring, but access is still pretty limited. Hugh might be able to get around in my "attic" but it is pretty tough for me.
Damage done:
1) Foot through ceiling in closet access.
2) Bit dropped in wall (retrieved).

Not to bad considering...

I currently am listening as L/R mains, will be able to get some impressions as surrounds this weekend.

Some pics.


----------



## cburbs (Mar 27, 2007)

Hey thanks for the update...appreciate it.


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

Still breaking them in and running as mains.
Initial impressions:

Detail - Danny's speakers always seem to excel at this. They are not Neo speakers but the detail is excellent.
Stereo separation - very good. I was wondering how this would sound with omni directional surrounds, but you can definitely distinguish left/right channels.
Spatial orientation - You wouldn't want to run these as mains, they definitely sound like they are coming from "up there" but you can't locate the source as expected per the design.


----------



## madpoet (Jul 26, 2010)

Thanks for this thread... I keep eyeballing them myself


----------



## Cujobob (Feb 12, 2008)

I'm curious how they compare with a traditional design and what advantages they have as surrounds.


----------



## The Ninja (Feb 11, 2009)

If mounted at the correct distance from the ceiling, they are designed to present a flat response at the seating position. Your typical dipoles and such don't. 



Cujobob said:


> I'm curious how they compare with a traditional design and what advantages they have as surrounds.


----------



## madpoet (Jul 26, 2010)

Questions...would they work well as side surrounds as well or are they too diffuse?


----------



## The Ninja (Feb 11, 2009)

Side or rear surrounds - works well in either location.

Sean



madpoet said:


> Questions...would they work well as side surrounds as well or are they too diffuse?


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

Glad you found it helpful, that is what it is all about. :thumbsup:


madpoet said:


> Thanks for this thread... I keep eyeballing them myself


----------



## madpoet (Jul 26, 2010)

Just ordered my own set for rear surrounds. If I like them I'll go for a second


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

:thumbsup: Cool, feel free to post your progress in this thread.


madpoet said:


> Just ordered my own set for rear surrounds. If I like them I'll go for a second


----------



## k_t (Jun 20, 2008)

The Ninja said:


> If mounted at the correct distance from the ceiling, they are designed to present a flat response at the seating position. Your typical dipoles and such don't.


I assume that distance from the ceiling would vary with ceiling height? If I have 11 ft ceilings for example?


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

16" from ceiling to tweeter.


k_t said:


> I assume that distance from the ceiling would vary with ceiling height? If I have 11 ft ceilings for example?


----------



## madpoet (Jul 26, 2010)

dvenardos said:


> :thumbsup: Cool, feel free to post your progress in this thread.


Thanks, I will. I did order the pre-cut baffles (chickened out there) but I am intent on doing the rest myself.


----------



## cburbs (Mar 27, 2007)

I am bringing this thread back to life as I may have my Elt DPAs sold and I am thinking of going with these as the replacements.

I am just not sure on if I want to have them built complete with veneer or do the veneer or paint myself.

My issue is I don't know which route I want to go. Looking at veneer isn't easy as you may like the look of something you see online but how will it look on the actual speaker. 

I may need to see if there are any local Veneer shops here to see stuff in person.


----------



## rsa (Dec 9, 2008)

Depending on your décor, you might consider painting them to match the wall color. :hide:


----------



## cburbs (Mar 27, 2007)

rsa said:


> Depending on your décor, you might consider painting them to match the wall color. :hide:


We are in a rental for at least the next year so that doesn't help me at all.

I have the Rosewood Ref series right now with the rosewood Elt DPAs.

My GR Research N2x are just plain black as they were originally just sitting in a bookcase so I didn't care on veneer/color.


----------



## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

You will have to do a red tint to match the rosewood, plain rosewood is not red.


----------



## cburbs (Mar 27, 2007)

Is what I meant is I don't know which venner/paint to choose when I build my GR speakers. 

I was looking at this veneer - 










The other thing is I may have found someone local to build my speakers out.


----------

