# Abolute vs. Relative



## James1960 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hey folks I'm kind of confused l have on Onkyo tx- nr708 110 watts 7.2 
Ever since l have had it l have the volume setting at the absolute setting with the maximum level output being 99
When l watch movies l have my volume at about the 35.to 40 range my speakers are fully capable of handling the power
But l seem to be missing some kick to my sound l have all my speakers set at 80 hz crossover l have B&W for the LCR
and mirage for the surrounds with 2 Velodyne subs l am wondering if l go back and change the volume setting to relative
would the volume be louder or the same as absolute l notice when setting is set to relative the max. Volume is -81dbs
when l increase the volume it goes backwards so that being said what is louder the volume playing at 35 with the volume setting at Absolute or the volume at -45dbs with the volume setting at Relative?
What's the difference? Will l be able to listen to my movies louder with the volume setting at relative?
Thanks


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Sound like you're system is not properly dialed into the acoustics of the room and the room is sucking life out of the overall output.

Our AVR has two volume scales. I use dBfs which goes from -79.5dBfs to +18dBfs. This is pretty much the forum standard when asking about room measurements. Theoretically speaking, +/-0dB is "SUPPOSE" to be reference level playback but that's going depend on the capability of one's playback system.

The other scale is a volume scale of 0 - 98. 98 being the maximum amplifier output. Output wise, it's all the same as 0 > 98 is pretty much the same as -79.5dBfs > +18dBfs or a range of 98.

As to listening to and getting the best out of one's system, that's going require downloading and getting a freeware copy of REW up and running so you can see and adjust the acoustics in your listening venue. Your not having a kick to the sound quality is probably due to sound waves interacting with each other in the room and by cancelling each other out, create a null or a loss of "kick."


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

How large is your room? Did you run the Audyessey setup before and have you used a tripod for the mic?


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## James1960 (Jan 11, 2014)

First of all my apologies l forgot to mention that one side of my living room is open to the dining room and l have one sub
just inside of that room l did run the audessy with the mic but without a tripod but the readings were all different for all the speakers so l set it up manually and it sounds a lot better lm thinking that the room that my system is in is not enclosed
So l know lm losing a lot of sound can l put a wall partition to block the open side of the room will that improve my sound
My house is pretty old and not made for these sort of things, l do have another home theatre system in another room that is lot smaller and is square in shape l have a denon 1603 avr 75 or 80 watts 5.1 and the sound is fantastic the room shakes maybe
That might be the problem with my main system in the living room the room is not enclosed maybe if l eliminate the second
subwoofer in the dining room it could make a difference
Thanks


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

James1960 said:


> First of all my apologies l forgot to mention that one side of my living room is open to the dining room and l have one sub
> just inside of that room


That's going make those watching the movie in the dining room happy but is definitely going take away from the listening experience in the living room.  What subwoofers do you have?

From personal experience, I have found one is best served with a subwoofer placed nearfield, behind the main listening position and a second subwoofer placed across the room, on the wall opposite the MLP.

Ad nauseam, I encourage everybody to download and get a freeware copy of REW up and running so one can measure and see how the acoustics in their room are playing and getting along with each other. Anybody who thinks they can skip this step (room measuring) are only kidding themselves because in the pure and simple, anybody who'd not measuring the acoustics in their room, is flying blind.

I checked out the Denon AVR1603 and it has Denon "Cinema Equalizer" but I didn't see any mention of Audyssey. If you can, I would recommend upgrading your unit to a current model such as a Denon AVR-X1000 that has Audyssey MultEQ XT....a minimum for room correction software purposes.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

James1960 said:


> just inside of that room l did run the audessy with the mic but without a tripod but the readings were all different for all the speakers so l set it up manually and it sounds a lot better


Trust me, you will get very good results if you use a tripod and place it in the correct spots. Setting manually won't give you very good results because there are several things Audyessey does that you can not do manually. 
You said yourself it does not sound very good particularly the lower end. Moving the sub into the room and placing it in a corner will very likely give you much better results.


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## James1960 (Jan 11, 2014)

I have two velodynes 10 &12 inches what l will do is move the sub from the dining room to the left opposite corner of my living
Room so that means l will have two subs on the same side of my system opposite of each other but facing in different directions they are front firing as to my denon in my smaller room l will be upgrading to another with hdmi audio support
L do like the denon very clean sound l was thinking of going for the x4000 anyways thanks for all of your help 
THX


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

James1960 said:


> ...what l will do is move the sub from the dining room to the left opposite corner of my living Room so that means l will have two subs on the same side of my system opposite of each other but facing in different directions


You're best served having one behind the MLP and one on the wall opposite to the MLP. Corner loading is an excellent idea as the corner reinforces the subwoofer and IIRC, gives you an extra +6dB output, at the lower end. This puts less stress on the subwoofer system and makes for cleaner sound.


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## James1960 (Jan 11, 2014)

I will do that put it in the corner will watch the Hobbit 2 nite to test it out
THX


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

James1960 said:


> I will do that put it in the corner will watch the Hobbit 2 nite to test it out
> THX


To encourage, here's an image with the subwoofer behind the MLP and the other sub across from the MLP.

 

I'd have the one subwoofer directly in the corner but the chair got their first. 

Just to be fair, during movies, I run both subwoofers +10dB hot and the center channel +6dB hot from a flat graph. I run the MVC at -17.5dBfs.


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## Almadacr (May 5, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> To encourage, here's an image with the subwoofer behind the MLP and the other sub across from the MLP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't forget that it works in your room for you , his room its different and his listening options are different so what it works for you doesn't mean that works for him . 

There are so many things that he can do that this hobby goes from a trial and error to a optimization of his room and involves acoustic treatment and placement . 

You guys already gave good info and the OP needs to play around with settings and placement , well we all do it right ?


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Almadacr said:


> Don't forget that it works in your room for you , his room its different and his listening options are different so what it works for you doesn't mean that works for him .


Actually, it will but if you don't download and get a freeware copy of REW up and running, one will never know.

...

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=43669

"When using two subs, they can be placed in the front corners of the room close to the main speakers or one can be placed in the front and the other one in the rear."

Tests have been done showing that a nearfield placed subwoofer has a +10dB tactile benefit vs a subwoofer placed in another location. What I'm sharing is empirical as opposed to anecdotal.

"ALL ROOMS" will benefit with the placement of one sub nearfield. All rooms will benefit with the placement of subwoofers on opposite walls to the listening position. All rooms need to be measured to verify the brevity of what I'm sharing. Have you taken the time to download and get up and running, a freeware copy of REW?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

That is very misleading to say that it will. There is far more placement options that will work for subs than how you suggest. As a matter of fact I moved my sub out of the corner as it boosted the higher octaves of the bass frequencies and made it sound too boomy and became localized and REW confirmed that. 
Having a sub directly behind the listener can work but not in every case. Room layout, acoustics and size all play a big part in what you feel.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> That is very misleading to say that it will. There is far more placement options that will work for subs than how you suggest. As a matter of fact I moved my sub out of the corner as it boosted the higher octaves of the bass frequencies and made it sound too boomy and became localized and REW confirmed that.
> Having a sub directly behind the listener can work but not in every case. Room layout, acoustics and size all play a big part in what you feel.


It's not misleading at all. Place a subwoofer behind the MLP and one subwoofer on the opposite wall and after running room correction and using REW to dial the system in, take your measurements. Yes, agreed, there are many different locations one can place their subwoofers and to start with, placing one nearfield, to start with, is the best location of all.

This thread on another forum is a good thread to wend your way through and towards the end, you'll find empirical evidence regarding what I'm commenting on as to the benefit of nearfield placement and tactile sensation.

I don't wish to argue. If you have empirical evidence to counter what I'm posting, I'd love to look at what ever you have to link to.

My recommendation would be to place that Ultra of yours behind your MLP, run your room correction software and you'll feel what I'm posting about.

(a suggestion, when dealing with +/-3dB specification, it's helpful to viewers if one posts in 5dB increments)


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I think this graph of my sub in it's current location front and centre shows that more than me just saying so.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

No it doesn't. It shows you took the time to dial you system in but unless one of your subs is placed nearfield, you'll lose out on that wonderful tactile sensation. When I post of empirical evidence, I'm speaking of what I'm posting about, subwoofer placement, nearfield placement and measurements supporting these comments or information contradicting my comments. What I'm not posting about is an individual's results.

Working with you, my comparative graph doesn't show the benefit of nearfield placement either.



Are you using one Ultra or two. My comments regard a two subwoofer system and not a single subwoofer solution.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

No dialling in at all, just Audyessey XT nothing more at all.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> No dialling in at all, just Audyessey XT nothing more at all.


Just saying, running AVR provided room correction software (Audyssey) is part of the dialing in process.

(and yes, that's a very nice graph)

...:T


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## Almadacr (May 5, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> Actually, it will but if you don't download and get a freeware copy of REW up and running, one will never know.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


I am well aware of Frank ( BigDaddy ) Post's and sticky's ( BTW very useful and informative ) and he helped me several times with place acoustics and his bigger help was by helping on sub risers ( i was not a believer ) and notice the difference and we both agree that it's what best works for us in our own individual rooms .


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Almadacr said:


> I am well aware of Frank ( BigDaddy ) Post's and sticky's ( BTW very useful and informative ) and he helped me several times with place acoustics and his bigger help was by helping on sub risers ( i was not a believer ) and notice the difference and we both agree that it's what best works for us in our own individual rooms .


In the simple, my point is to share with a novice, the easiest/fastest way to set their two subwoofers up and without all the falderal, get the best out of them. There's always later time for the "falderal."

...

(Big Daddy never helped me)

...:rolleyesno:


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## Almadacr (May 5, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> In the simple, my point is to share with a novice, the easiest/fastest way to set their two subwoofers up and without all the falderal, get the best out of them. There's always later time for the "falderal."
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Well .... did you ask him ? His sticky's are really great and there's a lot of info there but for a novice i can agree with you it can be overwhelming :T .


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## James1960 (Jan 11, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> To encourage, here's an image with the subwoofer behind the MLP and the other sub across from the MLP. http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=14629 http://www.hometheatershack.com/gallery/file.php?n=14630 I'd have the one subwoofer directly in the corner but the chair got their first.  Just to be fair, during movies, I run both subwoofers +10dB hot and the center channel +6dB hot from a flat graph. I run the MVC at -17.5dBfs.


This is my new set up l placed the sub in the corner of my living room opposite the other sub but facing away from it


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Almadacr said:


> Well .... did you ask him ?


That would be my fault. I read what he had to post, took it to heart and added his input to all my other research on the matter. I never considered giving someone who I was reading a call for assistance.

As a consumer, I spend about a year and a half researching this dog looking for fleas. Now my dilemma is dealing with poor quality recordings, masquerading as quality recordings. Last night's movie was "Olympus Has Fallen" and it was a fail on many levels, one being the terrible dialogue track in the sound track.

The point, no amount of research and education will account for directors and sound engineers who let a poorly tracked sound track get published.

This film had fail written on it, on so many levels, it will be removed from our collection, never to be watched again. With the exception of the sound track troubles, my wife enjoyed the movie thoroughly, so my comments are personal in nature.

As to facing away, our sub too is facing away but subwoofer produced sound waves are omni-directional, so I'm of the understanding, that the direction of placement of the driver, is not consequential to the interaction of sound (acoustics) in a listening space.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

James, did relocating the subs give you an improvement in the sound? The first thing I would check is the phase of your subwoofers. If they have a phase control (either a continuous dial or a 0 / 180° switch) start with just one sub connected and dial it in first. Play some bass-heavy scenes and adjust the phase until it sounds the best.

Then connect the other sub and repeat the process. You might find that they are competing against each other if they are working out of phase. If the subs don't have any phase adjustment controls but do use speaker wire, you can simply invert the speaker wires at one end, which will wire them 180° out of phase.

After that I would experiment with placement and you should be able to make some improvements. The main speakers being in a cabinet might have some impact on the sound, but probably not major. 

One last suggestion, you might want to tilt your centre speaker up a bit at the front to aim it directly at your head when seated in your main listening position.


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## James1960 (Jan 11, 2014)

Owen Bartley said:


> James, did relocating the subs give you an improvement in the sound? The first thing I would check is the phase of your subwoofers. If they have a phase control (either a continuous dial or a 0 / 180° switch) start with just one sub connected and dial it in first. Play some bass-heavy scenes and adjust the phase until it sounds the best. Then connect the other sub and repeat the process. You might find that they are competing against each other if they are working out of phase. If the subs don't have any phase adjustment controls but do use speaker wire, you can simply invert the speaker wires at one end, which will wire them 180° out of phase. After that I would experiment with placement and you should be able to make some improvements. The main speakers being in a cabinet might have some impact on the sound, but probably not major. One last suggestion, you might want to tilt your centre speaker up a bit at the front to aim it directly at your head when seated in your main listening position.


After l moved my sub from inside the dining room to the living room on the opposite side of the corner l did hear a much bigger difference also both my subs are set with the phase at 0 but the idea with tilting the centre channel towards my limiting position sounds logical l will try that 
THX


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