# Reference Level Listening ?



## phillihp23 (Mar 14, 2012)

When someone says I listen to music at reference levels, what does that mean?

Are they referring to the volume? Depending on your reciever 0-100 or -dbs to +dbs. If so what volume is reference?

Are they referring to not adjusting channels to different volumes on different movies? For example not turning up the volume of the center channel on a particular movie for personal preference.

Thanks in advance for any information.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hi Phillip,here's a link to help a little I hope. 
http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-reference-level/
In short, with MV at -0(relative), you will be reproducing peaks of 105db, and 115db from the sub channels. These are the levels the sound engineers use to mix movie soundtracks. 
To my knowledge, music mixing has no such yardstick.


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## phillihp23 (Mar 14, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Hi Phillip,here's a link to help a little I hope.
> http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-reference-level/
> In short, with MV at -0(relative), you will be reproducing peaks of 105db, and 115db from the sub channels. These are the levels the sound engineers use to mix movie soundtracks.
> To my knowledge, music mixing has no such yardstick.


Good article..appreciate.

So, I have the Dennon 4520 like many on this forum. What master volume would be best associated with reference levels? I know there are some audio junkies on here that have an opinion for me?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

That would be -0 of you use the "relative" volume indicator. That's an indication of "relatively" how far you are from reference level. Most of the time I think ppl listen to levels between -20 and -5. That 4520 shouldn't have any trouble driving levels like that. ...your ears mileage may vary however. Lol


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## phillihp23 (Mar 14, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> That would be -0 of you use the "relative" volume indicator. That's an indication of "relatively" how far you are from reference level. Most of the time I think ppl listen to levels between -20 and -5. That 4520 shouldn't have any trouble driving levels like that. ...your ears mileage may vary however. Lol


I guess i have to change the volume display as it currently just counts up no -dbs or dbs on display
I usually play it on volume number 65 on a volume display scale of 0 to 100. Its comfortable and not crazy loud at all so I am sure I am far from reference level currently.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I could be wrong Phillip? But I think MV 100 is the same as -0(can't remember). That would put you about 35db below thx reference. Or -35 MV relative. 
Here's a much more worthy explanation. 

http://forums.audioholics.com/forum...play-0db-reference-level-how-all-related.html


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Reference level equaling 0 on the volume control is only valid if the volume level from the media player matches the level used during calibration.
The volume level on the media itself will also affect this.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

chashint said:


> Reference level equaling 0 on the volume control is only valid if the volume level from the media player matches the level used during calibration. The volume level on the media itself will also affect this.


Good point. Media is really inconsistent. However it seems like modern music recordings use an "all levels up" with a dynamic window of 5db. I dislike this very much. On movies, I find dynamic peaks and valleys are still in place but overall volume levels can vary from mix to mix.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

I calibrate using a level meter (if you don't want to spend the money you can get an App for that..)

At the main listening position I put the volume during and action sequence to 80db


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## phillihp23 (Mar 14, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> I could be wrong Phillip? But I think MV 100 is the same as -0(can't remember). That would put you about 35db below thx reference. Or -35 MV relative.
> Here's a much more worthy explanation.
> 
> http://forums.audioholics.com/forum...play-0db-reference-level-how-all-related.html


Hypothetically according to the article those using a absolute volume display, 80 on a scale 0-100 would be 0 db or reference level. And those using a relative volume display, 0 would be 0 db or reference level.


I say hypothetically because this theory is all dependent on the volume display and what it is set on when calibrating. That volume display setting then becomes the volume display to use for "reference level" listening in the future (0 db). 

So much more complex than I thought it would be. so I listen around 65 on a absolute volume display and it is very comfortable and clearly not reference. I think "in general" after conducting Audyssey calibration that my 0 db "reference level" would be 80 on a scale 0-100 give or take a few.

Thanks all for contributing to my question. I got more than i bargained for...:neener: "I" have determined for peace of "my" mind to call 80 on my display "reference level" :yikes:


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

When I hit reference level my Integra avr it actually displays it on the screen. I never go that high except to show off certain scenes it's to painful.


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## phillihp23 (Mar 14, 2012)

B- one said:


> When I hit reference level my Integra avr it actually displays it on the screen. I never go that high except to show off certain scenes it's to painful.


I can image...I mean if i have to wear earplugs while watching a movie it is kinda pointless 
For kicks i turned my volume up to 80 on the absolute scale. I quickly turned it back down as it was insane.


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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

Keep in mind that you have to calibrate the individual speaker trim levels appropriately in order for reference level to be at 0. You place an SPL meter at the listening position, play the AVR's test tones in the speaker calibration menu, and adjust trims so that each speaker measures 75 dB.

_If_ you set it up this way, _then_ you will be at reference level at the listening position _for conforming movie soundtracks_ when the volume setup is for relative levels and the volume control is at 0 dB.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

I have found that since we built our HT I am listening at louder levels. I used to listen at -20 max with my La Scalas, and now with my new setup (JBL 2360a horns) I am listening at -10 for movies, and -20 for tv shows. I think part of the reason is the increased size of the room, and the other is the sound treatments (and soundproofing) allow me to listen louder without bothering my ears or others in the house.


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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

bkeeler10 said:


> Keep in mind that you have to calibrate the individual speaker trim levels appropriately in order for reference level to be at 0. You place an SPL meter at the listening position, play the AVR's test tones in the speaker calibration menu, and adjust trims so that each speaker measures 75 dB.
> 
> If you set it up this way, then you will be at reference level at the listening position for conforming movie soundtracks when the volume setup is for relative levels and the volume control is at 0 dB.


Forgot to mention that many auto-cal systems (certainly Audyssey) will do this as part of their setup process. It's still good to double check their work after they're done though.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

+1
I double check every time. It usually sets all 4 surrounds about 3db low in my system. Doesn't seem to matter what angle my meter is at either. I just bump them up to match. This doesn't effect audyssey, and seems to be common practice. 

Nice progress Ellis.


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## arkiedan (Oct 20, 2013)

*Re: Reference Level Listening ????????????????*

I've read dozens of explanations of "Reference Level" and, today, still don't know how it's attained or why. My problem with chasing this "standard" is that every device in my system outputs a different volume level. When streaming music and programming, increasingly common these days, every "App" varies considerably in volume and music apps vary from tune to tune. My Directv DVR, my Roku 3, my Oppo, my Blu Ray player and my turntable all output different volume levels. Using a sound level meter to equalize the devices would be okay but then there are "hotter" audio recordings or streaming stations that don't monitor the volume levels. Then the SPL meter would, again, be only marginally beneficial.

My Denon 3313 AVR is set at the relative volume indicator and I find myself listening at anywhere btween -4 db to - 30db, depending on the source device and material. The thing is; I listen to a comfortable volume level regardless of the readings on the AVR and the volume is completely dependent on my ears and the source material (which, again, varies greatly). So, I'm adjusting the sound level just as I did way back in the sixties, when I had no "reference level" on my amps or my receivers. According to my ears. 

All that brings me back to my original statement. How and why? If it's to have any importance there must be, I think, a way to auto-equalize all source material to a given volume, regardless of the source device or material. I don't see that in the near-future.

So for me anyway, I'll just do what I did fifty years ago. That is; if it's too loud I'll turn it down - if it's too soft I'll turn it up. Wagner up - Debussey down.

lddude:lddude:lddude:lddude:lddude:lddude:lddude:lddude:

JMHO,

old arkiedan


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

This is one of the better explanations
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/home-theater-blog/2013/3/14/thx-reference-level 

I personally think reference level is to loud.
There is a sizeable crowd that thinks they want/need/require sound reproduction the way the director intended and for those that want to chase it enjoy the journey.

As far as different media players matching output levels, well it hasn't happened yet and there is little reason to think it ever will.
DVDs and BDs play back at different levels on my BD player and when there are sound track options to choose from those play back at different levels too. So I am not even seeing standardization on the same disc.
I would like all sources to be normalized, if we switch from watching a BD to the cable box or the ROKU without turning down the volume a lot we get a real ear blasting.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

*Re: Reference Level Listening ????????????????*



arkiedan said:


> I've read dozens of explanations of "Reference Level" and, today, still don't know how it's attained or why.


How: For films, it's -20dBFS = 85dB SPL at the listening position. dBFS means dB referenced to digital "full scale", or the highest signal that can be obtained from a digital system without distortion. That level, when measured with a sine wave, becomes "0dBFS", so the level of a reference noise test signal is recorded at 20dB below that, or -20dBFS. 

Why: In a theater, 85dB SPL is a good average level for dialog, though some dialog can be lower. It's also a good "average" level for the modern digital soundtrack because there's 20dB of "headroom" above the average for high impact sound effects or music cues, which can hit the max of 105dB SPL on a short term basis. 

All motion picture soundtracks today have been mixed to this 85dB SPL reference level since the introduction of Dolby Stereo in the 1970s. Prior to Dolby the dynamic range of optical film sound was so small there was simply no way to get 85dB reference and have 20dB of headroom. Magnetic tracks were better, but still couldn't do that much. So the reference 85dB and maximum SPL figures didn't make sense until the inclusion of Dolby A-type noise reduction (still never could hit the 105dB SPL, btw!), and subsequently Dolby Digital. However, 85dB for the average theatrical level has been around for a long time, pre-Dolby.

Theaters too are calibrated such that a test film or test digital track with reference band-limited noise measures 85dBC SPL at a mid point in the theater.

At home, it's well established that 85dB SPL is too loud for reference. Most people play their systems 10dB of more below that. It's a phenomenon of sound systems in small rooms in close proximity to the listening position. If you're playing a soundtrack while watching an SPL meter, and you're at theatrical reference, you still may never see a 105dB SPL peak because the meter's response is too slow, though actual peaks might hit 105. 


arkiedan said:


> My problem with chasing this "standard" is that every device in my system outputs a different volume level. When streaming music and programming, increasingly common these days, every "App" varies considerably in volume and music apps vary from tune to tune.


Yes, but you're actually not chasing a standard, since there's no industry reference level in music other than 0dBFS. To make it worse, most apps that stream have a volume control in them somewhere which essentially moves the reference level with its position. You could determine the best app volume setting experimentally. The put that thing in for convenience, it ends up messing up levels badly. Wish it could be bypassed!


arkiedan said:


> My Directv DVR, my Roku 3, my Oppo, my Blu Ray player and my turntable all output different volume levels.


When playing movies, the DVR, Roku, Oppo and BDP should match, assuming they send audio to the AVR with a bitstream via HDMI, Optical or Coax, everything but analog. Where they possibly won't match is if the material isn't a movie, like TV or music. Then you could have quite a bit of difference, but again if the source material is identical, each source should send the identical bitstream to the AVR. If you can try the same movie material on all three, your Denon has a way to adjust audio levels on a per-input basis to cure this kind of thing, but if you send the bitstream to the Denon, it really shouldn't be there...except for TV and music, which you can't correct for.

The turntable is all analog, and there is actually an industry reference level of 0dB (peak lateral velocity of 5cm/sec for a 1KHz sinewave), but it's an average reference above which peaks can fall. If you could find a test record, you could set that too. However, modern music is mastered so much more loudly than vinyl, even if you matched reference levels it won't match well, except for classical music (you mentioned Debussey and Wagner) which comes closer to reasonable mastering levels.


arkiedan said:


> Using a sound level meter to equalize the devices would be okay but then there are "hotter" audio recordings or streaming stations that don't monitor the volume levels. Then the SPL meter would, again, be only marginally beneficial.


Yes, this is a problem. But no much worse than any listening we've ever done. Even radio listening can prompt a tweak on the volume control. But that's why we have them.


arkiedan said:


> My Denon 3313 AVR is set at the relative volume indicator and I find myself listening at anywhere btween -4 db to - 30db, depending on the source device and material. The thing is; I listen to a comfortable volume level regardless of the readings on the AVR and the volume is completely dependent on my ears and the source material (which, again, varies greatly). So, I'm adjusting the sound level just as I did way back in the sixties, when I had no "reference level" on my amps or my receivers. According to my ears.
> 
> All that brings me back to my original statement. How and why? If it's to have any importance there must be, I think, a way to auto-equalize all source material to a given volume, regardless of the source device or material. I don't see that in the near-future.


There are a couple of handy solutions, each with limitations. As mentioned, you can compensate for source level differences in the AVR, so long as you do so with identical test material, and realize there will be some difference not caused by the device. 

If you don't mind managing your music in a bit of music software like iTunes, you can actually even out the wild levels by using the built-in SoundCheck feature, which scans each track and establishes a play level for that track an attaches it to the track file as metadata (the actual audio is not modified). This is similar to the metatag ReplayGain, which works the same way but is more universal outside the iTunes world. The net result is even levels during playback. In the iTunes world, if you use SoundCheck or ReplayGain then stream to your AVR through AirPlay, you'll get the gain adjustments. You can do bit-perfect rips to ALAC, and still get Soundcheck to handle the gain tweaks. Make sure it's turned on in the preferences.

iTunes Radio has SoundCheck turned on by default, so stations in iTunes radio are already level-matched.

SoundCheck and ReplayGain do not alter program dynamics, they're just a meta-tag that adjust playback level statically, and can be turned off at any time, since the actual audio has not been altered.



arkiedan said:


> So for me anyway, I'll just do what I did fifty years ago. That is; if it's too loud I'll turn it down - if it's too soft I'll turn it up. Wagner up - Debussey down.


Turn the Debussey up too. Fêtes, man, Fêtes!


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Turn it up until you like it or your wife yells at you to "turn the S#$$ down!!!", in which case back it off 3 notches and your good.:T

No really, many say that reference level is 80-85 spl at the listening point, HOWEVER, you may not like that or want more, the whole point of this exercise it to create an HT customized to suit you and your family


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Andre said:


> Turn it up until you like it or your wife yells at you to "turn the S#$$ down!!!", in which case back it off 3 notches and your good.:T


My wife usually asks me to turn it up 3 notches.


Andre said:


> No really, many say that reference level is 80-85 spl at the listening point,


"Many" would include THX, Dolby, and SMPTE, but who's counting. They seem to agree 85dB SPL is the reference level.


Andre said:


> HOWEVER, you may not like that or want more, the whole point of this exercise it to create an HT customized to suit you and your family


THX would say the whole point is to experience the content "as the creators intended". It's just that in a small room with speakers 10' or so away, 85dB is too loud. The usual correction is -8 to -10dB. I personally play at reference rarely, but sometimes, and the hard part is building a system that will actually play at reference +20dB, full spectrum, without distortion. And for the sub, you have to add 10dB per THX. Very hard to do at 20Hz! And if you did, someone, possibly the wife, may want those 3 notches back down again.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

+1
While I do appreciate the "reference level" in the home capability. At the end of the day, it's not a benchmark too many get excited about. Ie: if it distorts before being loud enough to deliver what you want, you need different gear. If not? Turn it up some more! Lol 
Unless your selling tickets for screenings, enjoy!
That's not to say however, that using thx reference standards to build your system around is useless either.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> That's not to say however, that using thx reference standards to build your system around is useless either.


Well, that's a relief! Some of us have spend considerable time, energy and money to become THX certified! Glad to hear it's not a total waste. 

Unfortunately, THX, which started as a set of specifications, now is unrecognizable as anything specific, and people don't really know what THX is. Their own trailers have contributed ("Let's see/hear it in THX!"). The first goal of THX when it was invented was to create an method that the full impact of creative content could be consistently presented to the theatrical audience. This meant improving, then standardizing both dub stages and theaters, ultimately matching them. When "Home THX" was introduced, its goal was to scale that experience to the home, with again, a match to the dub stage. That's still one of their goals, but the need to show profit clearly got in the way. THX now means too many things, and thus means very little to the consumer. Reference levels included. 

It's still the only way to completely experience all the creative content as it was intended. Just as looking at a painting in diffused light from a north-facing window lets you experience it the way the artist did when it was created (assuming he had a north facing window in his studio). But just as paintings can look good in many different light conditions, film sound can sound good on different systems, so long as you don't have the "cool fluorescent" audio system where everything sounds greenish.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

gazoink said:


> THX would say the whole point is to experience the content "as the creators intended". It's just that in a small room with speakers 10' or so away, 85dB is too loud. The usual correction is -8 to -10dB. I personally play at reference rarely, but sometimes, and the hard part is building a system that will actually play at reference +20dB, full spectrum, without distortion. And for the sub, you have to add 10dB per THX. Very hard to do at 20Hz! And if you did, someone, possibly the wife, may want those 3 notches back down again.


Problem is the "creators" didn't tweak their audio for YOUR room, but rather a "reference" room or studio. The sound they "intended" in your room could be 65 spl, really nobody know, worse each creator could have a different take on what their movie/song should sound like in your room. Personally I think you would give yourself an aneurysm trying to acheive it. And if you did you very best to approximate it and you don't enjoy yourself then what was the point in the first place:dontknow:


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Andre said:


> Problem is the "creators" didn't tweak their audio for YOUR room, but rather a "reference" room or studio. The sound they "intended" in your room could be 65 spl, really nobody know, worse each creator could have a different take on what their movie/song should sound like in your room. Personally I think you would give yourself an aneurysm trying to acheive it. And if you did you very best to approximate it and you don't enjoy yourself then what was the point in the first place:dontknow:


Actually, you have it backwards. In the film industry the creative environment and theatrical playback environments are standardized, insuring their efforts will be conveyed to the audience. Homes are unstandardized (though there is a very clear average), so there's simply no way to mix for your personal system, and no point in trying. The only thing that makes sense is to try to pull the home environment as close as possible to the creative one.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

guess we will have to agree to disagree.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

gazoink said:


> Well, that's a relief! Some of us have spend considerable time, energy and money to become THX certified! Glad to hear it's not a total waste. Unfortunately, THX, which started as a set of specifications, now is unrecognizable as anything specific, and people don't really know what THX is. Their own trailers have contributed ("Let's see/hear it in THX!"). The first goal of THX when it was invented was to create an method that the full impact of creative content could be consistently presented to the theatrical audience. This meant improving, then standardizing both dub stages and theaters, ultimately matching them. When "Home THX" was introduced, its goal was to scale that experience to the home, with again, a match to the dub stage. That's still one of their goals, but the need to show profit clearly got in the way. THX now means too many things, and thus means very little to the consumer. Reference levels included. It's still the only way to completely experience all the creative content as it was intended. Just as looking at a painting in diffused light from a north-facing window lets you experience it the way the artist did when it was created (assuming he had a north facing window in his studio). But just as paintings can look good in many different light conditions, film sound can sound good on different systems, so long as you don't have the "cool fluorescent" audio system where everything sounds greenish.


Very nice gazoink! My point was for the OP, and goin crazy in chasing a unicorn. Definitely not to downplay seeking reference. In fact one of the reasons I chose my AVR was its thx cert. i too reach for "the numbers" during playback, as long as i can while not damaging the WAF! I feel your right also, on what thx means anymore. Not much it seems. At least to normal consumers. ...now where's my "orange" speaker grills!


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## Jeff L (Jun 24, 2014)

The THX brand does have some play, I bought the receiver I have because it was THX certified. When Im alone I definitely watch at reference unless it mostly dialogue. Action movies I get the full treatment and for me it makes the movie. Im in my 40's so the WAF doesn't come into play:nono:, been married way to long to be hassled in the man cave. I should mention a full blown HT is only costing me a pool.:spend:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Jeff L said:


> The THX brand does have some play, I bought the receiver I have because it was THX certified. When Im alone I definitely watch at reference unless it mostly dialogue. Action movies I get the full treatment and for me it makes the movie. Im in my 40's so the WAF doesn't come into play:nono:, been married way to long to be hassled in the man cave. I should mention a full blown HT is only costing me a pool.:spend:


Pool doesn't sound bad. Mine cost 120' of lakeshore! Lol
My "cave" is too small, and full of drums and equipment. Someday I'd like to move our theater out of the commons, but til then...WAF sits at redline.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Andre said:


> guess we will have to agree to disagree.


Sure, why not.

Of course, I don't think you're going to get Gary Rydstrom to come mix his next film just for you in your HT...at least, the chances are kind of small.

But it's not as bad as all of that. Just because we may listen at 10 or 20 dB below refernce doesn't mean we miss something, because our rooms are mostly fairly quiet, and the average system is pretty flat (see AES paper 8310, "First Results from a Large-Scale Measurement Program for Home Theaters", T. Holman and R. Green, Nov. 2010). Perhaps a few details will be less obvious, and the emotional impact somewhat muted. 

If that matters, you can turn it up, but nobody's going to mix for something other than reference in someone's home theater, just not going to happen.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Andre said:


> Problem is the "creators" didn't tweak their audio for YOUR room, but rather a "reference" room or studio. The sound they "intended" in your room could be 65 spl, really nobody know, worse each creator could have a different take on what their movie/song should sound like in your room. Personally I think you would give yourself an aneurysm trying to acheive it. And if you did you very best to approximate it and you don't enjoy yourself then what was the point in the first place:dontknow:


I think you are making the same argument that many make regarding color calibration. The point is that there are standards and the only way to even begin to get close to what was intended is to adhere to them on the display (or room) end of things as much as possible. It is a matter of reducing the degrees of freedom in the system. Infinite degrees of freedom (or more accurately, arbitrarily many) yeild a result which is in no way predictable nor likely to resemble the intended product.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Sigh....all I was trying to say was an HT should be as enjoyable as possible to the owner. IF that means not adhering to a standard then so be it. I have chronic high freq tinnitus (i.e. I have a smoke alarm going off in my head 24/7), I have "adjusted" one of my systems settings to compensate for this. If a person finds 65 spl more enjoyable then 85 then should they just tuff it out in order to adhere to the standard?


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Andre said:


> Sigh....all I was trying to say was an HT should be as enjoyable as possible to the owner. IF that means not adhering to a standard then so be it. I have chronic high freq tinnitus (i.e. I have a smoke alarm going off in my head 24/7), I have "adjusted" one of my systems settings to compensate for this. If a person finds 65 spl more enjoyable then 85 then should they just tuff it out in order to adhere to the standard?


Nobody's saying that you are required to listen at reference. In fact, as I stated earlier, very few do. I totally agree that the HT experience should be as enjoyable as possible, whatever it takes. For some, that means experiencing the soundtrack the way it was created, for others, not so much.

In fact, there are many technologies specifically designed to let you experience more of what was intended, but a levels well below reference. Audyssey Dynamic EQ is a really good one which, if properly set up, restores the spectral balance of the mix when played below reference, and does so in a highly calibrated manner. Audyssey Dynamic Volume is specifically intended for low volume listening. 

But, it's also necessary to understand that no film soundtrack is going to be mixed specifically for the home, unless that's it's only release channel, and even then it's unlikely. Very few films have been remixed for the home market, and the few that have serve only to confuse the issue. TV sound is mixed for the home, and not usually mixed in a film-style calibrated dub stage either. Just know your own requirements, know what the material was mixed for, and adjust accordingly. 

And just understand, "reference" is a theatrical reference, well established and adhered to, but not well accepted in the home. The fact that it's a standard can work for you. For example, in our home theater control systems I program a "reference" volume button, but it's set for -10dB. It always returns the listener to the same level, which is a more acceptable 10dB below 85dB SPL. That wouldn't even be possible without the theatrical reference standard industry wide.


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## corradizo (Jan 19, 2014)

Ugh. So my thx certified onkyo tx-nr609 reciever should be at 85db at mlp when the dial is at 0db - by adjusting gains and subs should be at 95db at mlp?

When audyssey does it's cal all speakers read 73db with my umm6.

Is the audyssey onkyo mic off?

Pete


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

corradizo said:


> Ugh. So my thx certified onkyo tx-nr609 reciever should be at 85db at mlp when the dial is at 0db


Yes, when measured with band-limited noise recorded at reference. However, many test discs have their calibration noise at 75dB. Be careful, you have to know what you're measuring.


corradizo said:


> - by adjusting gains and subs should be at 95db at mlp?


Sort of, but again, you really need to know what you're measuring and how. Typical system cal noise is bandwidth limited to avoid errors caused by response anomalies at the extremes. You can't use that for sub cal. You need specific sub test noise to do it, and a meter able to do it. Again, many test discs use cal signals at 75dB. Read up first.

The +10dB sub offset is for higher maximum in the LFE channel, for impacts, etc.


corradizo said:


> When audyssey does it's cal all speakers read 73db with my umm6.


Depends on what test signal you're measuring. Audyssey gets it right, though. After cal, your reference noise test should play at its stated reference. That MAY NOT be 85dB, though, check your test disc or noise source to make sure you know what level to expect. 

We typically don't cal home systems with 85dB SPL noise because...you guessed it...it's too loud! However, after proper calibration with your volume control set to 0 (or 100, whatever), and if you played a real reference noise test signal it would play at 85dB. 


corradizo said:


> Is the audyssey onkyo mic off?


No.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Just a quick example, the Spears & Munsil test disc has cal noise recorded at -30dBFS, should measure 75dB SPL, and if all that's true, if you set your volume to 0/100 you're calibrated for the theatrical level of 85dB SPL at -20dBFS.


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## corradizo (Jan 19, 2014)

What would REW look like to generate the right tones? I assume ASIO4ALL would provide the reciever the right signal level?


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

corradizo said:


> What would REW look like to generate the right tones? I assume ASIO4ALL would provide the reciever the right signal level?


REW, Generator, set for Pink Noise with the Speaker Cal option, RMS level at -20dBFS = 85dB SPL with volume at the correct position. One channel at a time, of course. -30dBFS would be the more typical HT 75dB SPL test signal.

Anything you have to do to get the REW output digitally to the AVR should be fine, assuming no processing in between.


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## corradizo (Jan 19, 2014)

I think I understand now! Thanks for explaining this in detail. I bet my recievers built in tones are at -30dbs. My REW/umm6 "meter" picks this up as 73db and I've corrected it to read 75db. What I really should do is push it to 85db per channel at mlp. 

Or the better way would be to use rew to provide the signal via hdmi and like you said with the -20db pink noise, i turn up the reciever to 0db/100 and then trim the gains per channel until i see 85db.

As for the the sub: Since my sub is pro amp powered, I leave the avr at 0db/100 gain trim to 0db in the avr, and turn the inuke gain up until I hit 95db at mlp. Hope my 2 15's can do that! So when people say "I run my sub 10db hot", they are really only trying to meet the THX standard? From there, they do a hard knee house curve essentially to the mains crossover point?

I'm having so many light bulb moments i may have to go to the tube gear section!

Pete


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

corradizo said:


> I think I understand now! Thanks for explaining this in detail. I bet my recievers built in tones are at -30dbs. My REW/umm6 "meter" picks this up as 73db and I've corrected it to read 75db. What I really should do is push it to 85db per channel at mlp.


No, your AVR cal tones should be 75dB. If they are, your volume control can be related directly to the real 85dB reference. No need to push anything.


corradizo said:


> Or the better way would be to use rew to provide the signal via hdmi and like you said with the -20db pink noise, i turn up the reciever to 0db/100 and then trim the gains per channel until i see 85db.


Yes, that would work, but there's a good reason AVRs use -30dBFS/75dB SPL cal tones. 85dB is LOUD! 


corradizo said:


> As for the the sub: Since my sub is pro amp powered, I leave the avr at 0db/100 gain trim to 0db in the avr, and turn the inuke gain up until I hit 95db at mlp. Hope my 2 15's can do that! So when people say "I run my sub 10db hot", they are really only trying to meet the THX standard?


The 10dB differential in LFE is a calibration adjustment to provide the potential of a peak SPL of at least 115dB from the sub. However, soundtracks are also mixed with this offset, so the net result of that 10dB extra gain in your LFE is you're dead on, not running hot because they mix it to that standard.


corradizo said:


> From there, they do a hard knee house curve essentially to the mains crossover point?


THX Ultra2 crossover point is 80Hz, the mains must go down to 80Hz, the subs must go from20Hz to 160Hz.
For Select2 the crossover is is 100Hz, the subs go from 35Hz to 160Hz. 

Ultra2 subs must produce 115dB SPL in a 3000 cu ft room, Select2 does the same in a 2000cu ft room.



corradizo said:


> I'm having so many light bulb moments i may have to go to the tube gear section!
> 
> Pete


Warm up those bottles.


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## phillihp23 (Mar 14, 2012)

I appreciate everyone who contributed to my question on reference level listening. You all gave great advice and reference articles. I learned alot from this conversation and that's why I love HTS.


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## corradizo (Jan 19, 2014)

Thanks for asking it! I was able to get my setup dialed in nicely. I started over tonight with audyssey. It set my my individual speakers to 71db which i thought was wrong. Its actually correct because as you start to crank the reciever in stereo for example you approach 85db when the disk is between -4db and 0db. This prompted me to dial in my sub at 71db when the trim is zero on the avr. Free headroom! So thank you!


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