# Separate Components vs. a Receiver?



## Oleson M.D. (Feb 3, 2010)

Okay...I grew up surrounded by music, playing in several bands in junior high, high school, and college.
My music teacher was very much into building audio kits, Dynaco.

In my adult years, I still play musical instruments, and attend concerts on a frequent basis.

So, that was my intro to stereo. Separates. Pre-amp, power amp, and tuner. That is still my philosophy today, that separates will achieve a level of sound quality that an all in one reciever will not match.

Example...my theater has all separate amps for all channels. A B&K mono-block for the center, with B&K plus Emotiva stereo power amps for the remaining channels. Note: we would have had all B&K, but they went out of business, dang it!

As you know, our AV processor is the Yamaha CX-A5200.

I am willing to wager that the sound with the above audio components will surpass the quality of a single receiver, especially when passages require a lot of reserve power (headroom).

This thread is closely related to another one here, can you hear the difference between amps? We all know how different speakers are.

Am I wrong? Am I right?

What say you?


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

Oleson M.D. said:


> Okay...I grew up surrounded by music, playing in several bands in junior high, high school, and college.
> My music teacher was very much into building audio kits, Dynaco.
> 
> In my adult years, I still play musical instruments, and attend concerts on a frequent basis.
> ...


I disagree with your assessment with the provision that you stay well within the power envelope of the receiver. Blind listening tests would reveal that truth really quickly.


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

The key is to stay within the power of your receiver. Receivers now adays usually are rated at x amount tperchannel,but when you look closer you will see it is for stereo only, and even then some are not even from 20-20. Irun seperate amps for every channel even with 114db horns. I do not need the power, but I also get better separation with mono amps.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk


----------



## Oleson M.D. (Feb 3, 2010)

ellisr63 said:


> The key is to stay within the power of your receiver. Receivers now adays usually are rated at x amount tperchannel,but when you look closer you will see it is for stereo only, and even then some are not even from 20-20. Irun seperate amps for every channel even with 114db horns. I do not need the power, but I also get better separation with mono amps.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk


Yes. Separate power amps for all channels, with massive toroidal transformers/power supplies, and being in the 150-250 watt per channel range (2 channels driven), will exceed most (if not all) receivers in capability, headroom, and avoiding clipping when those huge spikes in power demand occur.

Plus the other factor is I still have some of that 70’s teenager left in me, where looking at a huge rack of audio gear installed is somehow satisfying.


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

*Spoiler* 








ellisr63 said:


> The key is to stay within the power of your receiver. Receivers now adays usually are rated at x amount tperchannel,but when you look closer you will see it is for stereo only, and even then some are not even from 20-20. Irun seperate amps for every channel even with 114db horns. I do not need the power, but I also get better separation with mono amps.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk



Most manufactureres of mid to high level models rate full bandwidth in 2 channels. I know for a fact that Yamaha does. However, we are straying from the topic. There will be no difference in sound quality between an AVR and separates given that you dont exceed the AVRs power output. So in a small room with fairly efficient speakers, seperates hold no advantage over an AVR.


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

Oleson M.D. said:


> Yes. Separate power amps for all channels, with massive toroidal transformers/power supplies, and being in the 150-250 watt per channel range (2 channels driven), will exceed most (if not all) receivers in capability, headroom, and avoiding clipping when those huge spikes in power demand occur.
> 
> Plus the other factor is I still have some of that 70’s teenager left in me, where looking at a huge rack of audio gear installed is somehow satisfying.


I understand the kid thing believe me. But that in itself is no measure of sound quality. BTW, who doesnt mind looking at a nice rack....fillled full of audio gear.


----------



## Oleson M.D. (Feb 3, 2010)

3dbinCanada said:


> I understand the kid thing believe me. But that in itself is no measure of sound quality. BTW, who doesnt mind looking at a nice rack....fillled full of audio gear.


One benefit this time of year to having separates...all of those amps generate enough heat to actually raise the temperature in my theater by several degrees. And we do have small cooling fans installed for each amp.


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

Oleson M.D. said:


> One benefit this time of year to having separates...all of those amps generate enough heat to actually raise the temperature in my theater by several degrees. And we do have small cooling fans installed for each amp.


?


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Oleson M.D. said:


> One benefit this time of year to having separates...all of those amps generate enough heat to actually raise the temperature in my theater by several degrees. And we do have small cooling fans installed for each amp.


My amps are all very cool running class D, and my Pro Yamahas have never even turned on the internal fans even when I have been cranking the setup for friends.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk


----------



## Oleson M.D. (Feb 3, 2010)

ellisr63 said:


> My amps are all very cool running class D, and my Pro Yamahas have never even turned on the internal fans even when I have been cranking the setup for friends.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk


All of my components are in a rack, with little air space. The B&K amps get warm pretty quick. The Emotivas never break a sweat, staying cool at all times.

My powerhouse (250 watt - 8 ohms, 500 watt 4 ohms) Sound Valves Mosfet 32 gets hot fast. But none of the internal cooling fans ever come on, as I have external fans running to circulate the air out of the rack into the room.

Off topic a bit, but this is some interesting info on my Mosfet 32B:

_Thank you for your review of our Sound Values Mosfet 32B amplifier. We have a bit more background-design info to share with you, however, regarding your "Cons" comment that the 32B "gets pretty hot".

True, the sides of our 32B do get "pretty hot". But it is important to compare apples with apples on this point. First, unlike a "typical" power amp design, the sides of the 32B ARE its heatsinks. Secondly, the hottest part of any "fin" type heatsink will be its thick section (i.e., nearest where the output devices are mounted). Conversely, the coolest part of the heatsink structure will be its fin section (i.e., at the end of the thermal path).

In our 32B, the fins are turned INWARD. And while this internal fins-forced air cooling design actually combines to produce more efficient cooling than a conventional heatsink, one must remember that the massive (thickest) section of the 32B heatsink is directly in the thermal path and is now turned outward . . so touching the 32B's sides is exactly like touching the inner heatsink area of a "conventional" amplifier. In this comparison, both amplifiers would doubtlessly seem "pretty hot" - because you are putting your hands very near the hottest part of the amplifier (i.e., where its output devices are mounted). Using this basis of comparison, we feel the 32B's heat generation is on a par with its comparably powered competitors.

Additionally, another reason the 32B might seem to run warm is its relatively high bias idle current. Biasing a solid-state amplifier harder into *Class A* operation helps reduce odd-order crossover distortions - a type of distortion which can be particularly fatiguing to listeners (even in minute amounts). While setting the bias lower allows an amplifier to "not work so hard", it may also have the effect of making a solid-state design almost unlistenable at low volume levels. We opted to run our 32B a bit harder for "sound" reasons.

One final note . . .Careful individual in-house matching-grading of all 32 mosfet output devices further helps the 32B to run at maximum thermal and sonic efficiency. Each amplifier is carefully hand-assembled, bench-checked, heat run for 48 hours, then rechecked before shipment. The result is a finished product with only 2 field failures to date - a record we are very proud of._

*John Peterson
President*


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

I wonder what they mean by sonic efficiency? Sounds like a marketing ploy term to me.


----------



## Oleson M.D. (Feb 3, 2010)

3dbinCanada said:


> I wonder what they mean by sonic efficiency? Sounds like a marketing ploy term to me.


I think it is in the context of temperature, and having the unit up to operating temp for the best performance. Like they claim with tube gear, it has to warm up for a period in order to sound best.


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

I can understand the necessity for warm of tube amps as you want to bring the plate up to temperature to boil of the electrons more readily. However, warm up time becomes a phallacy when it comes to solid state as their is no dependance on temperature to produce electron flow. Manufacturers who state that warm time is required for solid state are just promoting snake oil.


----------



## Oleson M.D. (Feb 3, 2010)

3dbinCanada said:


> I can understand the necessity for warm of tube amps as you want to bring the plate up to temperature to boil of the electrons more readily. However, warm up time becomes a phallacy when it comes to solid state as their is no dependance on temperature to produce electron flow. Manufacturers who state that warm time is required for solid state are just promoting snake oil.


In this particular case, it's a moot point as the manufacturer has been out of business for decades. But my amp soldiers on faithfully, with the added benefit of warming the theater up on these chilly winter days.

The manufacturer never stated that a warm up time was required, just to be fair.

I guess it is just an old wives tale, but there are many audiophile types who swear that SS amps sound better after warming up. Not my position, just the position of a large number of hobbyists.

Read more here: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/do-solid-state-amplification-benefit-of-warm-up.302327/


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

Oleson M.D. said:


> In this particular case, it's a moot point as the manufacturer has been out of business for decades. But my amp soldiers on faithfully, with the added benefit of warming the theater up on these chilly winter days.
> 
> The manufacturer never stated that a warm up time was required, just to be fair.
> 
> ...


Steve Hoffman is one the biggest purveyors of snake oil so I wouldnt put alot of stock in his comments. He is absolutely dead set against DBT which makes me question his credability on this subject. If you want more accurate reading, look to Audioholics, Soundstage, and Stereophile.


----------



## Oleson M.D. (Feb 3, 2010)

3dbinCanada said:


> Steve Hoffman is one the biggest purveyors of snake oil so I wouldnt put alot of stock in his comments. He is absolutely dead set against DBT which makes me question his credability on this subject. If you want more accurate reading, look to Audioholics, Soundstage, and Stereophile.


I did not see any comments from Hoffman. Perhaps I missed them?

From the Stereophile forum: https://www.stereophile.com/content/warming-your-solid-state-amp


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

Oleson M.D. said:


> I did not see any comments from Hoffman. Perhaps I missed them?
> 
> From the Stereophile forum: https://www.stereophile.com/content/warming-your-solid-state-amp


Those are just people's opinion with no structured listening tests performed to reach their conclusions. One poster eludes bias changing when warmec up but that is not true, especially when the electronics are already at room temperature. It would make a difference if the components were sitting at or close to absolute zero


----------



## Oleson M.D. (Feb 3, 2010)

3dbinCanada said:


> Those are just people's opinion with no structured listening tests performed to reach their conclusions. One poster eludes bias changing when warmec up but that is not true, especially when the electronics are already at room temperature. It would make a difference if the components were sitting at or close to absolute zero


Correct. But in the end, they hear what they think they are hearing. Even if it is imagined, it is real to the listener, and that is really what counts.

Very subjective, certainly. But that is actually how audio gear, especially a speaker brand, is sold.


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

Oleson M.D. said:


> Correct. But in the end, they hear what they think they are hearing. Even if it is imagined, it is real to the listener, and that is really what counts.
> 
> Very subjective, certainly. But that is actually how audio gear, especially a speaker brand, is sold.


The audiophile is very gullible unfortunately and will purchase more on snake oil than fact. I actually selected a number speakers by measurement first, auditioned them and chose what I preferred.


----------



## NegativeEntropy (Apr 22, 2009)

I can’t disagree about the metric craptons of snake oil in audio, including much “high end” audio.

That said, check out the measurements ofthe AVRs and power amps on Audio Science Review. While the audibility thresholds for some items are up for discussion, a great many AVRs and power amps have very poor distortion measurements by a variety of approaches (from SINAD through IMD) that are likely to be audible.

In my own search for kit to outfit my under construction theater I did a lot of reading and set minimum thresholds for performance. These are moderate by many standards, but some of the kit, such as the Nad T758v3 that was on my short list, fail to meet them.


----------



## Oleson M.D. (Feb 3, 2010)

I stand by my original position of separates beating out a single receiver.
This is based on my personal experience, watching and listening to many movies in our theater. To achieve the correct and best dynamic range, from very, very low and barely audible, to explosive gunfire and room shaking bomb blasts, without overly taxing (i.e. clipping) the amplification is best done with separates.

There are some high end ($$$) AV receivers that are probably Ok. But for my money, separates rule. Remember that 70's teenager thing. More is always better. Bigger is always better.


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

Distortion levels of .5% is not audible so distortion levels lower than that is not improving sound quality. Most mid to high end models meet this spec easily so distortion is not an issue.


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

Oleson M.D. said:


> I stand by my original position of separates beating out a single receiver.
> This is based on my personal experience, watching and listening to many movies in our theater. To achieve the correct and best dynamic range, from very, very low and barely audible, to explosive gunfire and room shaking bomb blasts, without overly taxing (i.e. clipping) the amplification is best done with separates.
> 
> There are some high end ($$$) AV receivers that are probably Ok. But for my money, separates rule. Remember that 70's teenager thing. More is always better. Bigger is always better.


Separates have their place as do AVRs. To say one rules over the other is just a personal preference. I know for a fact that separates will do nothing to improve the sound quality in any 3 of my systems. Why? Because all 3 of my AVRs are loading even when pushing low 90s db.


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

NegativeEntropy said:


> I can’t disagree about the metric craptons of snake oil in audio, including much “high end” audio.
> 
> That said, check out the measurements ofthe AVRs and power amps on Audio Science Review. While the audibility thresholds for some items are up for discussion, a great many AVRs and power amps have very poor distortion measurements by a variety of approaches (from SINAD through IMD) that are likely to be audible.
> 
> In my own search for kit to outfit my under construction theater I did a lot of reading and set minimum thresholds for performance. These are moderate by many standards, but some of the kit, such as the Nad T758v3 that was on my short list, fail to meet them.


I was shocked when I saw their testing of Accuphase...absolutely horrible performance IMO.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

NegativeEntropy said:


> I can’t disagree about the metric craptons of snake oil in audio, including much “high end” audio.
> 
> That said, check out the measurements ofthe AVRs and power amps on Audio Science Review. While the audibility thresholds for some items are up for discussion, a great many AVRs and power amps have very poor distortion measurements by a variety of approaches (from SINAD through IMD) that are likely to be audible.
> 
> In my own search for kit to outfit my under construction theater I did a lot of reading and set minimum thresholds for performance. These are moderate by many standards, but some of the kit, such as the Nad T758v3 that was on my short list, fail to meet them.


All of the distortion levels indicated by the AVR manufacturer's are well below audible levels so your point is moot.


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

3dbinCanada said:


> All of the distortion levels indicated by the AVR manufacturer's are well below audible levels so your point is moot.


Except when they are not even meeting their specs, which is why people are buying their equipment.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

ellisr63 said:


> Except when they are not even meeting their specs, which is why people are buying their equipment.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk


What specs into particular?


----------



## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Power levels, and frequency response.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk


----------



## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

ellisr63 said:


> Power levels, and frequency response.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk





ellisr63 said:


> Power levels, and frequency response.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk


Ive never seen frequency response be an issue with even entry level AVRs. Power is a different issue and I rely more on independent testers snd publications than manufacturer specs. All of my AVRs exceed their power ratings for two channels driven, full bandwidth into 4 and 8 ohms. It gets tricky when running All Channels Driven (ACD) tests because you are actually testing the protection mechanism implemented by the manufacturer. Yamahas tend to be more conservative and will trip their protection circuit at lower power level outputs. Yet their 2 channel tests are far and above their advertised specs.


----------



## bennett89 (Dec 26, 2019)

> Steve Hoffman is one the biggest purveyors of snake oil so I wouldnt put alot of stock in his comments. He is absolutely dead set against DBT which makes me question his credability on this subject. If you want more accurate reading, look to Audioholics, Soundstage, and Stereophile.


Yep, there are a lot of great alternatives. I've been choosing between amplifier and receiver recently, ( watching here: https://theguruchoice.com/record-playеrs/best-receiver-for-turntable/ ), and the best budget model I've seen there was Sony STRDH190. Few days of different testing and I got it.


----------

