# Mini-Dsp - Let's break it down



## pdxrealtor

I am looking, and have been looking, to purchase a 2x8 or 4x10. Going for sub use only, and only going for the 2x8/4x10 units for their higher input voltage capabilities. 

I'm leaning towards the 4x10 for it's 4 selectable settings that can be changed via remote control. 

I would be running one sub line (unbalanced) out from my Pioneer AVR into the mini. Then using the appropriate (4 out) 48 KHz plugin for the best <10 Hz optimization. 

What concerns me is the fact that the MiniDsp specs are wonky at best. In reality all I need is the 2x4 (1 in 4 out) but the input voltage is limiting. Very close to clipping once a person adds 15+DB of boost down low. 

I was lucky and got the help of a knowledgeable person. Here is his assessment after reading the spec sheets on the 2x8 / 4x10 and their voltage ratings. 

The conclusion was it can be either 4 volts or 8 volts, but not both. 

I've gone round and round with MiniDsp and they can't answer the question with clarity. 

Does anyone know if the Mini-Dsp 2x8/4x10 has an input limit of 4 or 8 volts? 

_______________________________________________________________________

I just looked at the input voltage spec of the 2x8 and it is contradictory. I'll explain why below.

A balanced line-level input uses a circuit called a differential amplifier (diff amp), usually implemented with an IC op-amp and four resistors. I'm going to do a little math on this thing, because it's the only way I know to explain it without being ambiguous myself. In typical operation, the diff amp takes two input voltages that vary with time, neither of which is zero. Let''s name these voltages as follows:

Let input voltage #1 be called v1(t)
Let input voltage #2 be called v2(t)

The output voltage of the diff amp is a single ground-referenced voltage that is applied to the input of the A/D converter chip. Let this voltage be named as follows:

Let the diff amp output voltage (= input voltage to the A/D) be called vO(t)

Now let the gain from input 1 of the diff amp to the diff amp output, with input 2 grounded be called A1. Also, let the gain from input 2 of the diff amp to the diff amp output, with input 1 grounded be called A2. In linear operation, superpositon applies, which means vO(t) is determined by a simple formula:

vO(t) = A1 * v1(t) + A2 * v2(t)

We're almost there. To get a formula that has a better relationship to reality, we must make a change of variables. We define the difference-mode voltage vDM(t) as the difference between v1(t) and v2(t), and we define the common-mode voltage vCM(t) as the average of v1(t) and v2(t). In formulas, it looks like this:

vDM(t) = v1(t) - v2(t)
vCM(t) = 0.5 * (v1(t) + v2(t))

Now we can calculate vO(t) in terms of the difference-mode and common-mode input voltages. I'll skip the math in between and go straight to the result:

vO(t) = (A1 + A2) * vCM(t) + 0.5 * (A1 - A2) * vDM(t)

Now, here is the trick: If we design A2 so it's equal to the negative of A1, then by the formula above, the signal vO(t) applied to the A/D depends only on the difference between the two input voltages (the difference-mode voltage vDM(t)) and all dependency on the average of the input voltages (the common-mode voltage vCM(t)) disappears! This is called common-mode rejection. You may have heard of that term.

In a typical input diff amp of a balanced system, A1 = 1 and A2 = -1, giving:

vO(t) = vDM(t)

This follows from the longer formula above, with A1 = 1 and A2 = -1.

So, how does this relate to the miniDSP input voltage spec? (finally!). Well, the 2x8 spec says the maximum balanced input voltage is 8 Volts RMS (= 20 dBu). But remember, a properly-designed diff amp responds only to the difference-mode voltage at the inputs, and rejects the common-mode voltage. So this 8 Volt RMS balanced input voltage in a typical balanced system is achieved by having two equal-amplitude 4 Volt RMS signals at the input that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. But there's another way, and that is to make one of the input voltages zero, and the other 8 Volts RMS. That also gives the same 8 Volt RMS difference-mode input voltage.

The conclusion? If the 8 Volt RMS balanced maximum input voltage is correct, then that means the maximum unbalanced input voltage is also 8 Volts RMS (because the diff amp only responds to the difference of the two input voltages, and within limits, it doesn't matter how that difference is achieved). But the spec says 4 Volts RMS! 

Now there is one caveat, which deals with an unspecified parameter that relates to nonlinear operation: the maximum common-mode input voltage. From the math above, the common-mode input voltage is the average of the voltages at the two inputs, For a fully balanced system, the average of the input voltages is always zero for all time, because the two input voltages are negatives of each other. For a single-ended input signal of 8 Volts RMS, the common-mode input voltage is 4 Volts RMS (the average of 8 and zero). In a proper design, with a typical op-amp, the circuit will be safe with this common-mode input voltage.

So if all is well, it looks like the 2x8 has 4x the input voltage capability of the 2x4 (8 Volts RMS vs. 2 Volts RMS), assuming the 8 Volt RMS balanced maximum input voltage spec is correct.

Sorry for all the math, but if you take the time to understand the above, you will know more than miniDSP tech support and the people who wrote the miniDSP specs.


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## NBPk402

Are you sure you need that much boost? I would think that if you need that much boost you might be better off getting a different sub. Don't forget you may be exceeding the capability of the sub at the frequency you are trying to boost by that much. Have you tried moving the sub to a different position... As maybe you have a room null causing that much of a loss at that frequency.


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## pdxrealtor

ellisr63 said:


> Are you sure you need that much boost? I would think that if you need that much boost you might be better off getting a different sub. Don't forget you may be exceeding the capability of the sub at the frequency you are trying to boost by that much. Have you tried moving the sub to a different position... As maybe you have a room null causing that much of a loss at that frequency.


No it has nothing to do with subs or location. 

In the past I've only used the tool for response shape fine tuning. Playing around with house curves, hard knee curves, low shelf filters, etc. I try not to pass 9 db of total boost (seems to work good in 3db increments at different frequencies), but also add in some cuts. If I add 9 and take 9 out the net is zero, and I'm still very close to clipping on the 2x4 balanced board w/ jumper @ 2volts. 

Add in 9 and take out 0 and you've lost 9db of headroom. 

I've been reading a little bit about L/T circuits and a boost of 12 db doesn't seem like much. Add in any pre L/T frequency shaping and it could add up quick. 

I won't boost a true null, as it doesn't seem to work. :gulp: With my last six subs I could get acceptable response with just delay adjustments, leaving me with a good base to fine tune the curve to my liking. 

I moved on to four subs, four cabinets, and four channels for ultimate flexibility in tuning. Haven't got them fired up yet, but, I am expecting to be in the same situation of using level and delay tweaks to get a fairly decent base. 

I mainly just want to understand the tool I'm using. Is it 4 volts of input or 8 volts of input. The guy who has helped me out with the above analysis says it can't be both. 

I finally got some traction on the mini-dsp forum and I'm pretty sure I have the correct answer and I understand it. But would still like further discussion on the matter to better understand.


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## jtalden

Either the unbalanced or the balanced DSP units should work just fine.

Most all SW amps have a level control that changes the sensitivity to the input signal.

If you are clipping the DSP with the initial setting then you can just turn up the level control to increase the sensitivity of the SW amp. It will then require less voltage to reach a higher SPL. The DSP will pass the lower voltage without clipping.

If you make that change then the SW level control in the AVR or Pre-Pro will need to be turned down the same amount to compensate for the change. That way the relative level between the Main speakers and SW will remain unchanged.


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## pdxrealtor

jtalden said:


> Either the unbalanced or the balanced DSP units should work just fine.
> 
> Most all SW amps have a level control that changes the sensitivity to the input signal.
> 
> If you are clipping the DSP with the initial setting then you can just turn up the level control to increase the sensitivity of the SW amp. It will then require less voltage to reach a higher SPL. The DSP will pass the lower voltage without clipping.
> 
> If you make that change then the SW level control in the AVR or Pre-Pro will need to be turned down the same amount to compensate for the change. That way the relative level between the Main speakers and SW will remain unchanged.


Right right. I agree 100%. What you describe is gain structure. 

What I am after is what the actual specs of the mini-dsp units are. If not for anything more than to understand exactly what the specs are of the piece of equipment I just spent 500.00 on.

Better put is I am trying to understand how the actual stated specs work. What configuration options do I have? Can I take a 2x8 board and use a line converter box on my sub out (convert from unbalanced to balanced) to gain 4 volts of input headroom? 

No one on the MDSP forum or the devteam via email could explain it so I could understand it. I'm in no way saying I was not a hard one to explain things to. Because of this fact I sought help from someone who is knowledgeable in electronics. That is his 'help' to me above in my first post. He's saying it doesn't make sense. There can't be a 4 volt and 8 volt spec based on whether the connection at the same location (phoenix terminals) is balanced or unbalanced. 

Since I posted this here, I also posted on the mini-dsp forum in another attempt to get some information. That paid off as a very kind, and patient, forumite explained it so I think I understand it. He also said things that none of the other mini-dsp 'team members' have said it in the past. They are so quick to point to spec sheets in an attempt to answer questions but their spec sheets are confusing to even some of the more educated so how is a guy like me supposed to make sense of it? 

I'm still trying to get in touch with the writer of the above material to get his take. And I'd also like to get a bit more info from the 'forumite' , but I think he was scared away by a problem poster over there who likes to answer people's questions by pointing them to spec sheets.  Too bad he can't convey his words in constructive manners to help the truly 'un-educated', because he seems to know a lot about the mini-dsp.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Well, be sure and get back with us here and let us know what you find out. :T

Regards, 
Wayne


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## jtalden

Your questions are not clear to me and maybe that is the problem with getting clear answers? I will offer some comments to your questions in a very general way. They well may not help as I am unclear if there is any real problem you are concerned with. I do not own the MiniDSP so my comments are based on general knowledge and my experience with the Behringer DCX. 



pdxrealtor said:


> ... Better put is I am trying to understand how the actual stated specs work.


I would expect the MiniDSP to be designed as unity gain; x Volts in = x Volts out. If filters are applied then it applies their effect on the Voltage at those freqs. There will also probably be an input and output gain control so some modest gain structure adjustment could be applied. It is not intended to convert from consumer level to pro level as that is ~+12dB. Adding that much gain on on top of any significant boost filters is likely to overload it. MiniDSP's expectation is that the control of the gain structure is handled in the other units such that there is at most a modest gain or cut in the MiniDSP.



> What configuration options do I have?


?? To solve what problem; Noise, Overload of the MiniDSP, or ?? Are MiniDSP's connection instructions not clear?



> Can I take a 2x8 board and use a line converter box on my sub out (convert from unbalanced to balanced) to gain 4 volts of input headroom?


A Line converter box does not gain 4V of headroom for a MiniDSP (or anything else). It will just boost an unbalanced input V ~12dB and convert it to a balanced signal. It is not clear to me why you would think about adding another box. 

If you have an unbalanced SW output and select a balanced MiniDSP then that does add 6dB of headroom within the miniDSP, the cost of which is probably 6dB of additional noise. The additional noise shouldn't be an issue for a SW application however so that is an option. There is no obvious need for the additional headroom in my mind as the unbalanced MiniDSP should be designed to work well with the unbalanced source including a SW. 

If you have an unbalanced source unit and are concerned about overload of the unbalanced MiniDSP then that is the question you could ask. Are there users that have run into this problem? Under what conditions? I would think most all SWs have enough gain control to handle this. That is the purpose of that control and that is where the adjustment must be made. Those that have a problem in this regard should be able to solve it that way. 

There are always special cases, but you have not offered anything to suggest you have a special case so it is difficult to help.


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## pdxrealtor

jtalden said:


> Your questions are not clear to me and maybe that is the problem with getting clear answers? I will offer some comments to your questions in a very general way. They well may not help as I am unclear if there is any real problem you are concerned with. I do not own the MiniDSP so my comments are based on general knowledge and my experience with the Behringer DCX. I would expect the MiniDSP to be designed as unity gain; x Volts in = x Volts out. If filters are applied then it applies their effect on the Voltage at those freqs. There will also probably be an input and output gain control so some modest gain structure adjustment could be applied. It is not intended to convert from consumer level to pro level as that is ~+12dB. Adding that much gain on on top of any significant boost filters is likely to overload it. MiniDSP's expectation is that the control of the gain structure is handled in the other units such that there is at most a modest gain or cut in the MiniDSP. ?? To solve what problem; Noise, Overload of the MiniDSP, or ?? Are MiniDSP's connection instructions not clear? A Line converter box does not gain 4V of headroom for a MiniDSP (or anything else). It will just boost an unbalanced input V ~12dB and convert it to a balanced signal. It is not clear to me why you would think about adding another box. If you have an unbalanced SW output and select a balanced MiniDSP then that does add 6dB of headroom within the miniDSP, the cost of which is probably 6dB of additional noise. The additional noise shouldn't be an issue for a SW application however so that is an option. There is no obvious need for the additional headroom in my mind as the unbalanced MiniDSP should be designed to work well with the unbalanced source including a SW. If you have an unbalanced source unit and are concerned about overload of the unbalanced MiniDSP then that is the question you could ask. Are there users that have run into this problem? Under what conditions? I would think most all SWs have enough gain control to handle this. That is the purpose of that control and that is where the adjustment must be made. Those that have a problem in this regard should be able to solve it that way. There are always special cases, but you have not offered anything to suggest you have a special case so it is difficult to help.


This is all regarding input. I have no questions on output voltage, as it is plenty to drive my amps. But feel free to discuss that too. 

It's also no secret that their documentation is poor and even some of the smartest guys cant make sense of it. So, half of my post was really not a question but more an attempt to start a discussion about this box that has so much potential. 

One electronic engineer says input volts cant be both 4 and 8 volts based on connection type, it must be one or the other. (See post 1) Another says it can be both. Mini dsp cant explain it to me, and it vey well could be because I don't understand enough to ask the question in the right way. But! Look around..... Half the users of the mini dsp are as uneducated as me in this area. 

SO -- Assuming it can be both....... 

2x8 / 4x10 mini dsp spec is 4 volts unbalanced or 8 volts balanced, at the phoenix INPUT terminals. 

Question - if I convert my unbalanced connection to a balanced one, using a converter box, will I now have 8 volts of input headroom. 

If not, why? If so, how? The spec clearly states 4 volts unbalanced, 8 volts balanced. 

Question- what do you think? Can the INPUT voltage LIMIT double if using a balanced line? How can it be halved if using an unbalanced line. 


Info- 
My AVR puts sub output is over 10 volts at 80% max volume and sub trim maxed using a 60 hz tone -3dbfs. Dialed back to 'normal' (sub trim -7 MV 0) listening levels still clips the inputs on the 2x4 mini-dsp in rare instances, which has a spec of 2 volts input with proper jumper configuration. How rare Im not sure since their level meters are hard to read. I have a feeling the clip indicators were going off on my amp because the mini was being clipped on the inputs, sending that signal right down the line. Thats kind of irrelevant and I wont go into what makes me think that, but.none the less. 

The mini dsp level controls do nothing to lower the input voltage until after the ADC, by that time its to late. The signal is clipped and goes right down the line through the dac and onto the amp.


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## jtalden

RE max input V for a MiniDSP:
All the "consumer" audio equipment that provides both balanced and unbalanced inputs are designed to accept a standard consumer level signal on the unbalanced (RCA) input and 2x that (+6dB) on the balanced input.

You stated that the MiniDSP specs an input max of 4 V (rms or peak or p-p?) and the unbalanced input is 8 V so that is consistent with all others I am aware of.

If you are inputting an unbalanced signal into the balanced block then 8 V is still the max input rating assuming the connection is across the ± signal terminals. Some units allow it to be applied across the positive and the signal ground in which case the max input is again 4 V. So it depends how it is connected. 

I think this answers your direct question concerning max input V.

Concerning your comments on your initial problem with the 2x4 unbalanced version:
I'm sorry to continue on with this, but your problem would seem to be unusual.

Your AVR output capacity comments would not seem to be relevant. The AVR output is dependent on the input level of the SW amp needed to provide the SPL output. The higher the gain of the SW amp the lower the input voltage requirement. 

It is possible that you have some collection of equipment that either; does not have enough SW amp gain available to drop the required voltage in the AVR/MiniDSP to an acceptable low level, or when the gain is raised that much then the AVR SW offset level cannot be reduced far enough to balance with the level with the main speakers. I think this should be pretty rare, but maybe not and it may in fact be your case. Did you really turn the SW gain to maximum and adjust the AVR SW offset level down as needed? If so, which of the two problems did you run into? What was the other equipment (AVR, SW and mains)? The information may be useful to others who are looking for help with this problem.


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## pdxrealtor

> RE max input V for a MiniDSP:
> All the "consumer" audio equipment that provides both balanced and unbalanced inputs are designed to accept a standard consumer level signal on the unbalanced (RCA) input and 2x that (+6dB) on the balanced input.


You lost me. Let's use the DCX for example, or any device that only accepts balanced inputs. Let's call the rating 10 volts RMS max in. Now let's say I have take an unbalanced line and jump - and S, as is typically done. 

Question: does that change the input volt rating? 



> You stated that the MiniDSP specs an input max of 4 V (rms or peak or p-p?) and the unbalanced input is 8 V so that is consistent with all others I am aware of.


If I did state that it was a typo- apologies. The mini-dsp specs a phoenix connector MAX INPUT VOLT RMS as 4 volts unbalanced, and 8 volts balanced. This is VOLTS RMS. If using unbalanced the instructions state to jump - and S. 

That would seem to contradict what is consistent with all the others you are aware of. 



> If you are inputting an unbalanced signal into the balanced block then 8 V is still the max input rating assuming the connection is across the ± signal terminals. Some units allow it to be applied across the positive and the signal ground in which case the max input is again 4 V. So it depends how it is connected.


Again they instruct an unbalanced connection to be connected as + and S and the S and - be jumped. I don't know what would happen on the mini-dsp board (2x8 or 4x10) if you connect unbalanced to +/-. 

I know that on the OUTPUT of the mini-dsp I myself have to float the S (float pin 1) because as far as I can tell their boards are grounded to the PCB, not the chassis. This creates, in my system, a hum. So, I have no idea what affect floating pin 1 would do on the INPUT RE: voltage limits. These are the kind of things I'd like to know. 



> Concerning your comments on your initial problem with the 2x4 unbalanced version:
> I'm sorry to continue on with this, but your problem would seem to be unusual.
> 
> Your AVR output capacity comments would not seem to be relevant. The AVR output is dependent on the input level of the SW amp needed to provide the SPL output. The higher the gain of the SW amp the lower the input voltage requirement.


No worries- that's why we are here. To discuss and help everyone understand. 

When one has to lower the output of the AVR to max to barely clear input voltage limitations of the mini-dsp it does not matter what the sub amplifier does. As long as it can still reach max voltage needed to fully power the subs. 

I have a Pioneer AVR. SC-1522k. Onkyo's are known to have high output voltage too. Many are clipping and have no clue at all. How many times have you read of guys running 10DB hot? Even without boost, dialed back to minimum sub out to get the proper INPUT voltage to the mini dsp doesn't matter much if you like to turn it up 10db. Add some boost into that scenario and you've got problems with an AVR that puts out high voltage.

Mini-dsp suggested I put a potentiometer on the sub line in to the mini-dsp. That's great. How about they offer the option to purchase one. Or put out an app note on their website. I don't know, it just seems to me at least, that's a hokey suggestion for a consumer product. :huh: 



> It is possible that you have some collection of equipment that either; does not have enough SW amp gain available to drop the required voltage in the AVR/MiniDSP to an acceptable low level, or when the gain is raised that much then the AVR SW offset level cannot be reduced far enough to balance with the level with the main speakers. I think this should be pretty rare, but maybe not and it may in fact be your case. Did you really turn the SW gain to maximum and adjust the AVR SW offset level down as needed? If so, which of the two problems did you run into? What was the other equipment (AVR, SW and mains)? The information may be useful to others who are looking for help with this problem.


Most I answered just above this quote. I will add though, you cannot lower the voltage with the mini-dsp, any of them. The input levels attenuate AFTER the ADC, so the signal is already clipped by the time the voltage is lowered. This can be referenced here - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/minidsp/230470-signal-level-minidsp-x-over.html 

I hope I addressed all your questions.


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## jtalden

pdxrealtor said:


> You lost me. Let's use the DCX for example, or any device that only accepts balanced inputs. Let's call the rating 10 volts RMS max in. Now let's say I have take an unbalanced line and jump - and S, as is typically done.
> 
> Question: does that change the input volt rating?


Yes, with the input connection to the DCX as you stated the input rating is the half the value of its balanced rating. So if for example we say it's rated at 10 Vrms balanced then with the connection you cited (+ and S) the input rating would be reduced to 5 Vrms. We would be using 1/2 the input circuit instead of using the full circuit. 



> If I did state that it was a typo- apologies. The mini-dsp specs a phoenix connector MAX INPUT VOLT RMS as 4 volts unbalanced, and 8 volts balanced. This is VOLTS RMS. If using unbalanced the instructions state to jump - and S.
> 
> That would seem to contradict what is consistent with all the others you are aware of.


I don't understand. Oops, yes I do - my typo. I see now my intended statement got reversed. I intend to repeat your original statement; 4 V for the unbalanced and 8 V for the balanced. Sorry about that. There is no contradiction.

Thanks for indicating that this was rms. It does not change the principal involved. I just wanted to get a sense of whether it is similar to other specs I have seen and I do think this is pretty typical for consumer gear. 



> Again they instruct an unbalanced connection to be connected as + and S and the S and - be jumped. I don't know what would happen on the mini-dsp board (2x8 or 4x10) if you connect unbalanced to +/-.
> 
> I know that on the OUTPUT of the mini-dsp I myself have to float the S (float pin 1) because as far as I can tell their boards are grounded to the PCB, not the chassis. This creates, in my system, a hum. So, I have no idea what affect floating pin 1 would do on the INPUT RE: voltage limits. These are the kind of things I'd like to know.


I think both input connections options can be used on most consumer units. I believe it is more commonly recommended to connect to the ± terminals and allow the S to float. If one type is not shown by the manufacturer as an option however I would confirm with them or make sure that others users are successfully doing it with that unit.

For general information about connections schemes including unbalanced to balanced just google "Rane Notes".

Now concerning the 2x4 and your initial problem:


> ...I hope I addressed all your questions.


Well I think I understand that you have indeed tried it with the AVR SW offset at or near the minimum level setting possible in the AVR. At this setting you still have enough gain in the SW amp available, but are still clipping the 2x4 MiniDSP if large filter boosts are applied. If that is correct, at least, I now understand the issue.

MiniDSP suggested a pot at the 2x4 input and that would reduce the level at the input. More gain would still be needed then at the SW amp and it sounds like that may be possible for you. That would then seem to be one viable solution. An RCA 10dB attenuator from someplace like Parts Express should also work then and be more convenient.

If the 2x4 is rated at 2Vrms and the 4x8 is rated at 8Vrms balanced then using the balanced ± input connections in a 4x8 will provide an extra 12 dB of headroom in the MiniDSP. So your intended move to that unit should also be enough. [Still assuming there are no special reasons not to use the ± connection scheme.]


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## HifiZine

pdxrealtor said:


> Mini-dsp suggested I put a potentiometer on the sub line in to the mini-dsp.


Actually. I think *I* suggested that, not miniDSP. However, it is an example (a fairly straightforward one, if you don't mind my saying) of how to deal with gain structure issues - increase or decrease gain as necessary according to your devices in the chain.


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## pdxrealtor

HifiZine said:


> Actually. I think *I* suggested that, not miniDSP. However, it is an example (a fairly straightforward one, if you don't mind my saying) of how to deal with gain structure issues - increase or decrease gain as necessary according to your devices in the chain.


Not saying you didn't suggest that, but mini dsp has suggested it more than once to me.


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## pdxrealtor

jtalden said:


> Yes, with the input connection to the DCX as you stated the input rating is the half the value of its balanced rating. So if for example we say it's rated at 10 Vrms balanced then with the connection you cited (+ and S) the input rating would be reduced to 5 Vrms. We would be using 1/2 the input circuit instead of using the full circuit.


So the MAX Volt RMS spec doesn't _*technically *_change based on +/S connection or a +/- connection. But the headroom is halved if not using both legs? 




> I think both input connections options can be used on most consumer units. I believe it is more commonly recommended to connect to the ± terminals and allow the S to float. If one type is not shown by the manufacturer as an option however I would confirm with them or make sure that others users are successfully doing it with that unit.


Now you've got me wondering how one could hook up a S to - if the source is unbalanced. Doesn't the - leg of a + / - / S (balanced) connection need a signal? S is just ground and therefor has no signal. Is that right? 

I searched real quick on hooking up unbalanced lines to a DCX and sure enough the voltage is halved because typical hookup is +/S and jumping -/S. 

This is also how most if not all RCA to XLR pre-made cables are made. + to pin 2, S to pin 1 and 3 (jumping S and -). 



> For general information about connections schemes including unbalanced to balanced just google "Rane Notes".


I've not managed to make it through that entire document, only some of it. It's a long read. Especially when one doesn't even understand the very basics. 





> Now concerning the 2x4 and your initial problem:
> 
> 
> Well I think I understand that you have indeed tried it with the AVR SW offset at or near the minimum level setting possible in the AVR. At this setting you still have enough gain in the SW amp available, but are still clipping the 2x4 MiniDSP if large filter boosts are applied. If that is correct, at least, I now understand the issue.
> 
> MiniDSP suggested a pot at the 2x4 input and that would reduce the level at the input. More gain would still be needed then at the SW amp and it sounds like that may be possible for you. That would then seem to be one viable solution. An RCA 10dB attenuator from someplace like Parts Express should also work then and be more convenient.
> 
> If the 2x4 is rated at 2Vrms and the 4x8 is rated at 8Vrms balanced then using the balanced ± input connections in a 4x8 will provide an extra 12 dB of headroom in the MiniDSP. So your intended move to that unit should also be enough. [Still assuming there are no special reasons not to use the ± connection scheme.


I was looking at those inline attenuators but most of them neuter <20 hz response. 

There you suggest using the + / - inputs again. If the + is allowing 4 Volts and the - is allowing 4 Volts that must mean the S is passing Volts??


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## jtalden

pdxrealtor said:


> So the MAX Volt RMS spec doesn't _*technically *_change based on +/S connection or a +/- connection. But the headroom is halved if not using both legs?


?? What do you mean by "Technically"? I would guess that Pro units are generally only spec'ed on a balanced usage, the way they are designed and intended to be used. The unbalanced +/S hookup is a workaround and thus not spec'ed. If we only use half the input circuit we can only expect it to tolerate half the input voltage.



> Now you've got me wondering how one could hook up a S to - if the source is unbalanced.
> 
> Doesn't the - leg of a + / - / S (balanced) connection need a signal? S is just ground and therefor has no signal. Is that right?


"S" is the mid point of a balanced circuit. Do not think of S as "ground" and maybe it will not be as confusing? We shorted the -/S together so that "-" has a signal. The signal it has is the same signal that S has, that is the "-" signal of the unbalanced input signal. We are just disabling the negative half the balanced circuit by connecting its "-" to "S". Also keep in mind that the "-" of an unbalanced circuit is a signal connection, i.e., the "-" side of an AC signal. 



> I searched real quick on hooking up unbalanced lines to a DCX and sure enough the voltage is halved because typical hookup is +/S and jumping -/S.


That's correct. That is what my owners manual says to do. I used it that way for a couple of years before changing to the more conventional +/- connection.



> This is also how most if not all RCA to XLR pre-made cables are made. + to pin 2, S to pin 1 and 3 (jumping S and -).


?? All the ones I bought were 1S/+2/-3 and I thought that was typical. 1S/+2/-3 is the way Rane Notes has their recommendation. It's a lot of work to convert them so when I got 18 new cables wired that way I just used them as is. 



> I was looking at those inline attenuators but most of them neuter <20 hz response.


?? I have never investigated them. I would expect it is a simple voltage divider. 2 resistors chosen to drop the voltage by 10 dB. As long as the resistors are not undersized for a line level signal (a trivial requirement) there should be no issue But again, I have not looked into them. It would be a relatively simple effort to test them using REW so maybe someone here has done that. 



> There you suggest using the + / - inputs again. If the + is allowing 4 Volts and the - is allowing 4 Volts that must mean the S is passing Volts??


S is just the shield and the midpoint of the balanced circuit. Sometimes it is connected to chassis ground as well as the shield. In a balanced application you can just think of it as carrying no signal. It is instead connected to the cable shield to protect against noise that may be introduced due to longer cable runs near electrical noise sources.


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## pdxrealtor

This from a post over on the mini-dsp forum. Not sure if this helps anyone. Wayne??? 



> *To the other engineers asking for more details, the internal voltage on the board is +/-15V via DC-DC flyback stage for a split rail supply to the op amps.*



This is the reason I say technically 8 Volt max spec. I got this info from an EE who says it's not possible to get 4vrms or 8vrms based on a balanced or unbalanced connection. 

*



I just looked at the input voltage spec of the 2x8 and it is contradictory. I'll explain why below.

A balanced line-level input uses a circuit called a differential amplifier (diff amp), usually implemented with an IC op-amp and four resistors. I'm going to do a little math on this thing, because it's the only way I know to explain it without being ambiguous myself. In typical operation, the diff amp takes two input voltages that vary with time, neither of which is zero. Let''s name these voltages as follows:

Let input voltage #1 be called v1(t)
Let input voltage #2 be called v2(t)

The output voltage of the diff amp is a single ground-referenced voltage that is applied to the input of the A/D converter chip. Let this voltage be named as follows:

Let the diff amp output voltage (= input voltage to the A/D) be called vO(t)

Now let the gain from input 1 of the diff amp to the diff amp output, with input 2 grounded be called A1. Also, let the gain from input 2 of the diff amp to the diff amp output, with input 1 grounded be called A2. In linear operation, superpositon applies, which means vO(t) is determined by a simple formula:

vO(t) = A1 * v1(t) + A2 * v2(t)

We're almost there. To get a formula that has a better relationship to reality, we must make a change of variables. We define the difference-mode voltage vDM(t) as the difference between v1(t) and v2(t), and we define the common-mode voltage vCM(t) as the average of v1(t) and v2(t). In formulas, it looks like this:

vDM(t) = v1(t) - v2(t)
vCM(t) = 0.5 * (v1(t) + v2(t))

Now we can calculate vO(t) in terms of the difference-mode and common-mode input voltages. I'll skip the math in between and go straight to the result:

vO(t) = (A1 + A2) * vCM(t) + 0.5 * (A1 - A2) * vDM(t)

Now, here is the trick: If we design A2 so it's equal to the negative of A1, then by the formula above, the signal vO(t) applied to the A/D depends only on the difference between the two input voltages (the difference-mode voltage vDM(t)) and all dependency on the average of the input voltages (the common-mode voltage vCM(t)) disappears! This is called common-mode rejection. You may have heard of that term.

In a typical input diff amp of a balanced system, A1 = 1 and A2 = -1, giving:

vO(t) = vDM(t)

This follows from the longer formula above, with A1 = 1 and A2 = -1.

So, how does this relate to the miniDSP input voltage spec? (finally!). Well, the 2x8 spec says the maximum balanced input voltage is 8 Volts RMS (= 20 dBu). But remember, a properly-designed diff amp responds only to the difference-mode voltage at the inputs, and rejects the common-mode voltage. So this 8 Volt RMS balanced input voltage in a typical balanced system is achieved by having two equal-amplitude 4 Volt RMS signals at the input that are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. But there's another way, and that is to make one of the input voltages zero, and the other 8 Volts RMS. That also gives the same 8 Volt RMS difference-mode input voltage.

The conclusion? If the 8 Volt RMS balanced maximum input voltage is correct, then that means the maximum unbalanced input voltage is also 8 Volts RMS (because the diff amp only responds to the difference of the two input voltages, and within limits, it doesn't matter how that difference is achieved). But the spec says 4 Volts RMS! Retardedness.

Now there is one caveat, which deals with an unspecified parameter that relates to nonlinear operation: the maximum common-mode input voltage. From the math above, the common-mode input voltage is the average of the voltages at the two inputs, For a fully balanced system, the average of the input voltages is always zero for all time, because the two input voltages are negatives of each other. For a single-ended input signal of 8 Volts RMS, the common-mode input voltage is 4 Volts RMS (the average of 8 and zero). In a proper design, with a typical op-amp, the circuit will be safe with this common-mode input voltage.

So if all is well, it looks like the 2x8 has 4x the input voltage capability of the 2x4 (8 Volts RMS vs. 2 Volts RMS), assuming the 8 Volt RMS balanced maximum input voltage spec is correct.

Sorry for all the math, but if you take the time to understand the above, you will know more than miniDSP tech support and the people who wrote the miniDSP specs.

Click to expand...

*


> ?? All the ones I bought were 1S/+2/-3 and I thought that was typical. 1S/+2/-3 is the way Rane Notes has their recommendation. It's a lot of work to convert them so when I got 18 new cables wired that way I just used them as is.


It's not possible to have an RCA connect to and XLR as you mention above. RCA only has two cables so on the XLR end you must jump one of the wires to a pin, or leave it open. Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying?


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## jtalden

pbxrealtor,
It is probably just best to discount all my above comments.

I finally did some testing and it is clear I was wrong on the input headroom issue and confused in some spots regarding some the connections schemes I have used. 

Sorry for the misdirection.


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## pdxrealtor

jtalden said:


> pbxrealtor, It is probably just best to discount all my above comments. I finally did some testing and it is clear I was wrong on the input headroom issue and confused in some spots regarding some the connections schemes I have used. Sorry for the misdirection.


 Mind sharing what testing you did?



I asked about your suggestion of connecting an rca + / - and was told it could work with a 1:1 center tapped transformer. 

This from another EE who seems to think the input limits do change with balanced vs unbalanced (on minidsp).


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## cowboyup

pdxrealtor said:


> Mind sharing what testing you did?
> 
> 
> 
> I asked about your suggestion of connecting an rca + / - and was told it could work with a 1:1 center tapped transformer.
> 
> This from another EE who seems to think the input limits do change with balanced vs unbalanced (on minidsp).


Interesting :nerd:


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## pdxrealtor

cowboyup said:


> Interesting :nerd:



lol... at this point I'm just trying to learn. I'm sure the 4 volts, or 8 volts, of input headroom on the 4x10 unit I ordered will serve my purpose just fine either way. 

I have no idea what the hell a center tapped transformer is, but thought Jtalden might.


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## jtalden

Cables,
I was wrong about my current RCA/XLR wire connections. They indeed have XLR pins 1 and 3 shorted and connected to the shield of the RCA; confirmed with my DMM. They are Monoprice 4775 and 4783 series, a twisted pair with shield. Monoprice specs are consistent with this wiring.

At this point I am not clear as to how my older cables were wired. I only know for sure that they did not work properly until I rewired them. I was thinking that there was a discrepancy in the 2 wiring schemes that worked, but I am not really sure about that now. 

Headroom:
Well this is even more confusing for me. The following is mostly all guesswork on my part. 

I ran a loopback test on my audio interface. It’s a Focusrite Pro14 (balanced I/O). When I converted the input connection from balanced to unbalanced I got the expected -6dB output voltage drop. REW reported the “headroom” as being +6dB so the inference is that it accepts the same max input level in either mode. That got me thinking (always dangerous).

The problem is that the Headroom reported in REW is an indicator of the digital Full Scale (FS) level which I would not expect to change as it is just a digital level. It just assumes that the signal can be provided by the analog input circuit preceding it. It has no way to know what the headroom capability of that circuit is. 

Since FS is defined by the ADC, wouldn’t the input circuit just be sized by the designer such that no overload occurs in either mode? In other words, if necessary, size the input circuit so that half the input circuit provides enough headroom to drive the ADC to FS.

If this thinking is correct then the Headroom question becomes a moot point. It does not really matter if a basic balanced analog circuit loses 6dB of headroom when - and S are shorted. The overall unit will still have FS capability in either mode. That would seem to be the logical way to design it.

This is all guesswork on my part, but now I don’t see how either answer to the initial question provides any help regarding the headroom capability of a MiniDSP. 

We could say; I'm in over my “head” with no “room” to spare.


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## pdxrealtor

jtalden said:


> Cables,
> I was wrong about my current RCA/XLR wire connections. They indeed have XLR pins 1 and 3 shorted and connected to the shield of the RCA; confirmed with my DMM. They are Monoprice 4775 and 4783 series, a twisted pair with shield. Monoprice specs are consistent with this wiring.
> 
> At this point I am not clear as to how my older cables were wired. I only know for sure that they did not work properly until I rewired them. I was thinking that there was a discrepancy in the 2 wiring schemes that worked, but I am not really sure about that now.
> 
> Headroom:
> Well this is even more confusing for me. The following is mostly all guesswork on my part.
> 
> I ran a loopback test on my audio interface. It’s a Focusrite Pro14 (balanced I/O). When I converted the input connection from balanced to unbalanced I got the expected -6dB output voltage drop. REW reported the “headroom” as being +6dB so the inference is that it accepts the same max input level in either mode. That got me thinking (always dangerous).
> 
> The problem is that the Headroom reported in REW is an indicator of the digital Full Scale (FS) level which I would not expect to change as it is just a digital level. It just assumes that the signal can be provided by the analog input circuit preceding it. It has no way to know what the headroom capability of that circuit is.
> 
> Since FS is defined by the ADC, wouldn’t the input circuit just be sized by the designer such that no overload occurs in either mode? In other words, if necessary, size the input circuit so that half the input circuit provides enough headroom to drive the ADC to FS.
> 
> If this thinking is correct then the Headroom question becomes a moot point. It does not really matter if a basic balanced analog circuit loses 6dB of headroom when - and S are shorted. The overall unit will still have FS capability in either mode. That would seem to be the logical way to design it.
> 
> This is all guesswork on my part, but now I don’t see how either answer to the initial question provides any help regarding the headroom capability of a MiniDSP.
> 
> *We could say; I'm in over my “head” with no “room” to spare.*


Well now me and you are in the same boat! 

It's very confusing to me, and at this point I'm just trying to learn. I'm hoping I can get the EE who wrote the long piece with all the math to join the conversation. We could all learn from it.


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## billt

Actually, if you look at the miniDSP 4x10 user manual (which I can't link to, but is easy to find) the specification is quite clear.

The RCA unbalanced input has a maximum input of either 2V RMS or 0.9V RMS depending on jumper setting, the RCA unbalanced output has a maximum output of either 2V RMS or 0.9V RMS depending on jumper setting. 

Using the balanced connectors in unbalanced mode runs at a maximum input / maximum output of 4V RMS.

The difference between 4 and 8V is simple. Each signal wire on the balanced inputs will have a maximum 4 volt signal, but they are out of phase, so the differential voltage between the + and - inputs is 8V. Operated unbalanced only uses one input, so the differential signal is 4V.

As these are digital devices there is no headroom. If you exceed either input or output voltage it will clip.

I wouldn't describe the minDSPs as consumer devices by any stretch of the imagination. Adding a pot at the input to control excessive level from other equipment I would expect to be second nature to a user of these things.


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## cowboyup

billt said:


> Actually, if you look at the miniDSP 4x10 user manual (which I can't link to, but is easy to find) the specification is quite clear.
> 
> The RCA unbalanced input has a maximum input of either 2V RMS or 0.9V RMS depending on jumper setting, the RCA unbalanced output has a maximum output of either 2V RMS or 0.9V RMS depending on jumper setting.
> 
> Using the balanced connectors in unbalanced mode runs at a maximum input / maximum output of 4V RMS.
> 
> The difference between 4 and 8V is simple. Each signal wire on the balanced inputs will have a maximum 4 volt signal, but they are out of phase, so the differential voltage between the + and - inputs is 8V. Operated unbalanced only uses one input, so the differential signal is 4V.
> 
> As these are digital devices there is no headroom. If you exceed either input or output voltage it will clip.
> 
> I wouldn't describe the minDSPs as consumer devices by any stretch of the imagination. Adding a pot at the input to control excessive level from other equipment I would expect to be second nature to a user of these things.


:nerd:


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## pdxrealtor

billt said:


> Actually, if you look at the miniDSP 4x10 user manual (which I can't link to, but is easy to find) the specification is quite clear.
> 
> The RCA unbalanced input has a maximum input of either 2V RMS or 0.9V RMS depending on jumper setting, the RCA unbalanced output has a maximum output of either 2V RMS or 0.9V RMS depending on jumper setting.
> 
> Using the balanced connectors in unbalanced mode runs at a maximum input / maximum output of 4V RMS.
> 
> The difference between 4 and 8V is simple. Each signal wire on the balanced inputs will have a maximum 4 volt signal, but they are out of phase, so the differential voltage between the + and - inputs is 8V. Operated unbalanced only uses one input, so the differential signal is 4V.
> 
> As these are digital devices there is no headroom. If you exceed either input or output voltage it will clip.
> 
> I wouldn't describe the minDSPs as consumer devices by any stretch of the imagination. Adding a pot at the input to control excessive level from other equipment I would expect to be second nature to a user of these things.


Sorry for the late reply on this. I understand the basics as you've pointed out above. But when you ask and EE you get different answers. 

There is a much better discussion going on here - 

http://www.minidsp.com/forum/hardware-support/9935-minidsp-2x8-and-4x10-input-voltage?limitstart=0


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## pdxrealtor

Everyone - thanks for participating. And an extra special thanks to a guy named Andy, who was kind enough to _try_ and explain things to me and the various communities more than once. 

It got real technical. But some great questions were answered and done so with what I think are excellent answers. I've yet to get confirmation all the tech jargon is on the up and up, but I've been trying to get these answers out of MDSP for months so to see the words they used and the way they responded this time was a nice change. 

It turns out his (Andy's) questions on the Mini-DSP forum got devteam do some research and they in fact have verified, revised their spec to 8 volts on a differential input, confirmed operation, and on top of all that explained it. 

So - check it out. Start at this post if you care to learn some good tech info on the MDSP 2x8 / 4x10 etc...

http://www.minidsp.com/forum/hardware-support/9935-minidsp-2x8-and-4x10-input-voltage?start=42#13571

Cheers! :T


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## pdxrealtor

And their spec sheet is officially updated - 

http://www.minidsp.com/images/documents/Product Brief - miniDSP 4x10 HD.pdf


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