# What's the best first purchase?



## Southern Gorilla (Sep 5, 2015)

As I posted in my introduction thread, I've been authorized by my Chief Financial Officer to begin building speakers for our new surround system. This is what we currently have. I know, don't be jealous. Clearly, that box doesn't have enough power to run five channels of decent drivers. And is there really any point to building a massive sub box to go with five 2.5" speakers? I'm also confused about the sub output. It says it has a preamp out... but it also says the sub is 100W. Which is it? Or does the 300W rating include a separate amp for the sub? The sad thing is that it is still far better than the speakers in the TV.

But if I buy the receiver first I know it would be more than our current speakers could handle. The receiver I'm looking at is rated at 140W/channel. I really don't want to buy a set of speakers when I know have plans to build new ones. It seems I have a chicken/egg sort of problem. Is it possible to get the receiver and find just a cheap set of speakers to get me by until I build the ones I want? Or would I have to leave the receiver in the box until the speakers are built? Or could I find an amp with line-level inputs to power new speakers with our old system until we buy the new receiver? Why does life have to be so complicated? I long for the good ol' days when all we had to worry about was being eaten by tigers.

The main thing is that I would like the first purchase to pay some dividends. It's hard to justify spending a few hundred dollars on a piece of equipment that's going to set in a closet for several weeks waiting for the next purchase to happen. It could easily take months for me to gather all the parts to build the speakers I want and get the cabinets built and the crossovers wired and... well, y'all know the routine. I'd really hate to have a $400 5.2 receiver staring at me the whole time. But I'd also hate to spend months building the awesomest 5.2 speaker system mankind has ever seen without having the slightest clue if it would pay off in the end.

Suggestions?


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Southern Gorilla said:


> As I posted in my introduction thread, I've been authorized by my Chief Financial Officer to begin building speakers for our new surround system. This is what we currently have. I know, don't be jealous. Clearly, that box doesn't have enough power to run five channels of decent drivers. And is there really any point to building a massive sub box to go with five 2.5" speakers? I'm also confused about the sub output. It says it has a preamp out... but it also says the sub is 100W. Which is it? Or does the 300W rating include a separate amp for the sub? The sad thing is that it is still far better than the speakers in the TV.
> 
> But if I buy the receiver first I know it would be more than our current speakers could handle. The receiver I'm looking at is rated at 140W/channel. I really don't want to buy a set of speakers when I know have plans to build new ones. It seems I have a chicken/egg sort of problem. Is it possible to get the receiver and find just a cheap set of speakers to get me by until I build the ones I want? Or would I have to leave the receiver in the box until the speakers are built? Or could I find an amp with line-level inputs to power new speakers with our old system until we buy the new receiver? Why does life have to be so complicated? I long for the good ol' days when all we had to worry about was being eaten by tigers.
> 
> ...


You could get yourself a new receiver, and a pair of speakers that could be used for the main channels now, and later use them for surrounds when you have more money...:T:T

Another option would be to look for a used 5.1 setup that has some speakers. Then you could build your new speakers as you go and replace the ones you don't want.


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

Agree with Ron, first build 2 small speakers that will end up as your surrounds. Buy a used receiver.

As for which speakers to build, it really depends on budget. I would say that 200$/pair for drivers and crossover parts will give your decent 2-way bookshelves. Enclosure cost is really depends on your tastes... 

Did you have any designs/budget in mind?


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## Southern Gorilla (Sep 5, 2015)

ellisr63 said:


> You could get yourself a new receiver, and a pair of speakers that could be used for the main channels now, and later use them for surrounds when you have more money...:T:T





dgmartin said:


> Agree with Ron, first build 2 small speakers that will end up as your surrounds. Buy a used receiver.
> 
> As for which speakers to build, it really depends on budget. I would say that 200$/pair for drivers and crossover parts will give your decent 2-way bookshelves. Enclosure cost is really depends on your tastes...
> 
> Did you have any designs/budget in mind?


Hah! It had never occurred to me that I didn't need all the speakers right away. So I could easily get the receiver I want (possibly even used) and a couple modest bookshelf speakers to get me by for a while.

I don't have a set budget in mind really. I figure I can build the system over time as money allows. At the same time, I certainly don't have the funds to compete with some of the folks here. But if I'm going to build something I want it to be something more than I could afford to simply buy. I'm quite interested in the design laid out here. I'm guessing the rear channels don't have to be full-range. So that saves some money. I'm still fuzzy on the subs. There's way too much confusion, hearsay, and contradiction as to which enclosure works best for HT subs. Maybe I'll just use one of each to cover all the bases. :bigsmile:


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Accessories4Less.com will be a great place to shop for a used/refubished AVR (think warranty). And as far as confusion, for HT ported is the way to go. Don't think you'll find any disagreement with that here. Great DIY sub forum here as well with plenty of expert advice.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

www.accessories4less.com has some nice deals on speakers and receivers. They would definitely get you by until you get your own speakers built. Like these... http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...maha-natural-sound-speakers-black-each/1.html Also they have good deals on receivers. http://www.accessories4less.com/mak.../receivers-amps/home-theater-receivers/1.html I have bought 2 receivers from them and I was very satisfied. Their customer service is excellent also which is a plus. This is just a suggestion but allot of people have started out like this. Good luck with whatever you decide. :T


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Have you checked out these speakers for a possible build? http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-speakers/121641-harrys-ob-home-theatre-set-speakers.html

Open baffle would mean no cabinet box... I have never heard a setup like this, but i really like the idea.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Tonto said:


> Accessories4Less.com will be a great place to shop for a used/refubished AVR (think warranty). And as far as confusion, for HT ported is the way to go. Don't think you'll find any disagreement with that here. Great DIY sub forum here as well with plenty of expert advice.


Ha, I should read all the posts before I post. Good advice.......


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## Southern Gorilla (Sep 5, 2015)

Tonto said:


> Accessories4Less.com will be a great place to shop for a used/refubished AVR (think warranty). And as far as confusion, for HT ported is the way to go. Don't think you'll find any disagreement with that here. Great DIY sub forum here as well with plenty of expert advice.


 Cool site. They don't carry the brand I was looking at. But they do have plenty of other options. Yes, there is disagreement over subs here too. I've seen ported, sealed, IB, bandpass, even a rotary sub all being discussed. The one consistent thing I've noticed, in all the audio forums I've searched, is that the fancier cabinets all seem to be built to get smaller drivers to act like bigger drivers. This leads me to believe that in audio, just like in automobiles, there really is no replacement for displacement.

The first problem I have to overcome is my wife's perception. She genuinely thinks the speakers with our current system are fine and the processor is the problem. I'm not sure how to convince her that an array of 2.5" speakers is not an adequate setup for movies. We'd have to be better off getting this set along with one of these. I know that's bargain basement stuff. But it would still be better than what we have. And if our box really does put out the 300W it's rated at then we should get decent performance from those speakers. And the woofers in those are bigger than the "sub" that came with our system. Plus, those speakers would also perform better when we do upgrade the receiver. Am I wrong? My wife is right that our processor is junk. It's too outdated to work with our TV, it doesn't even have HDMI. But I don't see how hooking a fancy new receiver to these tiny 2.5" drivers would make a noticeable improvement. We could keep the 2.5s for the rear for now, and the sub. Then get the new receiver, then build the new subs, then the main speakers, then the rears. Does that sound like the right order?

I can't say I'm a fan of the open baffle idea. I really can't see how it's productive to leave the back wave of the driver open to the listening area. Seems kind of like trying to take a bath with the drain unplugged.

I am very thankful for all the help and suggestions so far. Things are getting clearer by the minute.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

It sounds like your wife really wants small speakers... I sold a set of 6 Celestion 3s to a friend years ago and they sound great. Here is a pair on eBay... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Celestion-3-Bookshelf-Speakers-/391227940377?hash=item5b17009e19

These were highly recommended when they were made as one of the best small speakers you could buy.


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## Southern Gorilla (Sep 5, 2015)

ellisr63 said:


> It sounds like your wife really wants small speakers


 It turns out I misunderstood her position. She thinks the speakers are fine for now because the sound isn't her primary complaint with our current system. Her main issue is that we can't connect everything properly. The surround box only has coax, RCA, and antenna connections. It's exactly the sort of primitive hardware you'd expect to see on a box with a built-in VHS. I think our Wii is similarly barbaric. So we only get the full potential from our TV when we watch cable. And we only get surround sound when we watch DVDs. We need a way to connect all the sources to get full hi-def picture and surround sound. The current box simply will not let us do that. So she is right, even the best speakers we could afford would be wasted on this system except when we watched a DVD. But I'm still right that a fancy new box would be wasted if we connected it to the miniscule speakers we have. So it looks like there's no cheap way to begin. We'll have to get the receiver and speakers at the same time to see any real benefit.

Of course, the catch is that receivers don't come with built-in players these days. So we'd also have to upgrade to Blu-Ray. And then I'm not sure we'd want to continue streaming Netflix over the Wii if it can't connect properly. So I'm sure that would be another sort of box to get.

Man, do I miss rabbit ears all of a sudden.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Southern Gorilla said:


> It turns out I misunderstood her position. She thinks the speakers are fine for now because the sound isn't her primary complaint with our current system. Her main issue is that we can't connect everything properly. The surround box only has coax, RCA, and antenna connections. It's exactly the sort of primitive hardware you'd expect to see on a box with a built-in VHS. I think our Wii is similarly barbaric. So we only get the full potential from our TV when we watch cable. And we only get surround sound when we watch DVDs. We need a way to connect all the sources to get full hi-def picture and surround sound. The current box simply will not let us do that. So she is right, even the best speakers we could afford would be wasted on this system except when we watched a DVD. But I'm still right that a fancy new box would be wasted if we connected it to the miniscule speakers we have. So it looks like there's no cheap way to begin. We'll have to get the receiver and speakers at the same time to see any real benefit.
> 
> Of course, the catch is that receivers don't come with built-in players these days. So we'd also have to upgrade to Blu-Ray. And then I'm not sure we'd want to continue streaming Netflix over the Wii if it can't connect properly. So I'm sure that would be another sort of box to get.
> 
> Man, do I miss rabbit ears all of a sudden.


 Have you though about cutting the cable for tv..or do you watch more then the local channels? We cut the cord over a years ago, and we installed a rooftop HD antenna. We use Amazon for our streaming of movies, and music (that we don't have already). You can get a new Sony Bluray for around $50. 

If I was you I would pick up a AVR for now (around 100wpc) along with an inexpensive pair of speakers (like the Celestions (used)), and get all your pieces hooked up and working. Then once you have everything working pick the speakers you want to buy or build. Once you have the Speakers you want for the front (I would get or make 3 identical ones), and then move your old speakers to the rear. Once you have 5 speakers i would look for a sub.:T:T


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## Southern Gorilla (Sep 5, 2015)

ellisr63 said:


> Have you though about cutting the cable for tv..or do you watch more then the local channels? We cut the cord over a years ago, and we installed a rooftop HD antenna. We use Amazon for our streaming of movies, and music (that we don't have already). You can get a new Sony Bluray for around $50.
> 
> If I was you I would pick up a AVR for now (around 100wpc) along with an inexpensive pair of speakers (like the Celestions (used)), and get all your pieces hooked up and working. Then once you have everything working pick the speakers you want to buy or build. Once you have the Speakers you want for the front (I would get or make 3 identical ones), and then move your old speakers to the rear. Once you have 5 speakers i would look for a sub.:T:T


Most of our viewing is non-local channels. So cutting the cable would be a loss. However, it is a loss we often consider since we lived untethered for some time previously. But the savings wouldn't be huge since we'd still have internet.

Honestly, I've been bitten by "bargains" so many times that I shy away from them. Not that I intend to gold plate everything. But buying the cheapest things available doesn't appeal to me. At least, not when I hope to keep those things for a while. I'll buy cheap speakers because I know I'll be replacing them. But I'll spend a bit more on equipment in the hopes it is more robust, more functional, and longer lasting. I'm looking at the Pioneer VSX-830 receiver, which is about $400. Hooking a $50 Bluray to that seems almost counterproductive.

How do you stream Amazon? How does Amazon compare to Netflix? Streaming is definitely a concern for us since we do quite a bit of it. Can any receiver with Wi-Fi stream?

Your suggested order for things makes sense. I think I'll go with the speakers I linked above though. Then I can take my time building fancier speakers while we enjoy the improved surround on the temporary system.

Another potential upgrade for the future is to add a projector system so we can have a bigger screen for movies. Our free flatscreen is decent enough for what it is. But we have more than once talked about upsizing. I think it's a 40" screen. We could simply trade it out for a 50-60" flatscreen. The current screen seems fine for regular TV though. So I think it would be nice to be able to switch between flatscreen and projector as we wanted for different purposes. It wouldn't have to be a fancy motorized screen setup either. A regular pull-down screen would be just fine. I'm sure there are plenty of folks here who do this sort of thing already. I'll be sure to search around for ideas.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Southern Gorilla said:


> Most of our viewing is non-local channels. So cutting the cable would be a loss. However, it is a loss we often consider since we lived untethered for some time previously. But the savings wouldn't be huge since we'd still have internet.
> 
> Honestly, I've been bitten by "bargains" so many times that I shy away from them. Not that I intend to gold plate everything. But buying the cheapest things available doesn't appeal to me. At least, not when I hope to keep those things for a while. I'll buy cheap speakers because I know I'll be replacing them. But I'll spend a bit more on equipment in the hopes it is more robust, more functional, and longer lasting. I'm looking at the Pioneer VSX-830 receiver, which is about $400. Hooking a $50 Bluray to that seems almost counterproductive.
> 
> ...


We have Amazon Prime which you can stream from newer Smart TVs, PS3, Xbox, and possibly even the wii. As far as the $50 Bluray (actually $55)... It is made by Sony and is considered to be a great BR player. Here it is... http://www.amazon.com/Sony-BDPS5200...8&qid=1441575131&sr=8-12&keywords=Sony+Bluray

I use an Oppo 103 BR, and i have to tell you the difference between using it and a PS3 is not much at all (other than the way you use the menu). Don't forget Sony is the one that came out with the format, and they know what it takes to get a great picture out of a BR player. :T

One idea I like for a setup with a Flat Panel and projector is...

Build a shadow box that is just a bit smaller than your projection screen, and put your FP in it, then use a pulldown screen in front of it when you want to watch using the projector.:T


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ron is totally right on the BD player. For the most part, what you get when spending more money is better gui, better remotes, more granular control and of course build quality(this should help it be quieter). Performance is much the same as long as the manufacturer is reputable. I scored a good one for my bedroom on a Black Friday deal for 50 bucks. (Sony s3100 149.00 retail I think. Decent not great) love my PS3 for the big system. Check eBay? Maybe you could ditch the wii? If you PM me, I have what might be a thing for you to use with your wii. It's a component cable set for wii that supports up to 1080i, and has an RCA stereo pair. This should allow your current avr to do pro logic surround with it at least. (It's not terrible, and better than TV spkrs. PM me and I'll send it to you if you think it'd be useful. Welcome to the shack!


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

Southern Gorilla said:


> This leads me to believe that in audio, just like in automobiles, there really is no replacement for displacement.


... at least you can boost a smaller engine to increase its output. Large speakers tend to be more practical than pressurized rooms. Ask what she prefers



Southern Gorilla said:


> I'm looking at the Pioneer VSX-830 receiver, which is about $400. Hooking a $50 Bluray to that seems almost counterproductive.
> 
> Your suggested order for things makes sense. I think I'll go with the speakers I linked above though. Then I can take my time building fancier speakers while we enjoy the improved surround on the temporary system.


The suggested electronics will continue to make sense with better speakers (up to a point). The first link to Lenard audio does not point to a particular design. Anyways I would stick to a well-documented 2-way design as a 1st build. I would not buy the cheap speakers you linked above.


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## Southern Gorilla (Sep 5, 2015)

ellisr63 said:


> We have Amazon Prime which you can stream from newer Smart TVs, PS3, Xbox, and possibly even the wii. As far as the $50 Bluray (actually $55)... It is made by Sony and is considered to be a great BR player. Here it is... http://www.amazon.com/Sony-BDPS5200...8&qid=1441575131&sr=8-12&keywords=Sony+Bluray
> 
> I use an Oppo 103 BR, and i have to tell you the difference between using it and a PS3 is not much at all (other than the way you use the menu). Don't forget Sony is the one that came out with the format, and they know what it takes to get a great picture out of a BR player. :T
> 
> ...





willis7469 said:


> Ron is totally right on the BD player. For the most part, what you get when spending more money is better gui, better remotes, more granular control and of course build quality(this should help it be quieter). Performance is much the same as long as the manufacturer is reputable. I scored a good one for my bedroom on a Black Friday deal for 50 bucks. (Sony s3100 149.00 retail I think. Decent not great) love my PS3 for the big system. Check eBay? Maybe you could ditch the wii? If you PM me, I have what might be a thing for you to use with your wii. It's a component cable set for wii that supports up to 1080i, and has an RCA stereo pair. This should allow your current avr to do pro logic surround with it at least. (It's not terrible, and better than TV spkrs. PM me and I'll send it to you if you think it'd be useful. Welcome to the shack!


I think we're going to hold off on the Blu-ray for now. Seems they are switching to 4K this year. I'd rather wait a few months til that becomes the standard and the price drops back down. We can keep our DVD player for a while.

We have an HDMI adapter for the Wii. But that doesn't help us connect it to the surround. The avr has just a single set of RCA inputs. We've searched around for component switches and whatnot to try and make everything work. But we've come to the conclusion that we have to get the receiver first. By the time we buy all the boxes necessary to connect everything to our current system we could have just bought the receiver that already has the necessary connections. So now I have to figure out if the 5.2 receiver I was looking at is the one I want or if there are more affordable options that have similar features.



dgmartin said:


> ... at least you can boost a smaller engine to increase its output. Large speakers tend to be more practical than pressurized rooms. Ask what she prefers
> 
> 
> The suggested electronics will continue to make sense with better speakers (up to a point). The first link to Lenard audio does not point to a particular design. Anyways I would stick to a well-documented 2-way design as a 1st build. I would not buy the cheap speakers you linked above.


 She wants the theater experience just like I do. She's a fan of spooky movies. So hearing all the creaks, scratches, and thuds that make those movies spooky is a main design goal. Plus we're big into sci-fi. I'm even considering those "bass shaker" gizmos to bolt under the couch for added impact.

The Lenard link was really about the crossover layout. I like the 4-way split. Technically, I think it would work out to be a 5-way since I'd add bigger subs for the really deep notes and cut the woofers at about 60 Hz. Yeah, it's a bit complicated. But I figure if I can rebuild an engine and assemble my own computer I can probably sort out the details of a speaker given time. I've always been a fan of jumping into the deep end rather than wading into the shallows.

Why not start with the speakers I linked? I know they're cheap and certainly not audiophile quality. But they still have to be better than the set that came with our surround system. They may eventually wind up being nothing more than external speakers for a sleep machine. So quality isn't a major concern. That being said... we will initially keep the speakers we currently have. At least until the new receiver blows them up.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

4k is still in its learning stage and will still be a while befor all the bugs are worked out. Getting a $70 bluray player now will be a huge step up for picture and sound quality from DVD. 
Your correct about the sub in that there is no substitute for displacement. "Bigger is better" but that said going with a internet direct company like HSU or SVS will get you a much better sub for the money if DIY is to much work for you.


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## Southern Gorilla (Sep 5, 2015)

tonyvdb said:


> 4k is still in its learning stage and will still be a while befor all the bugs are worked out. Getting a $70 bluray player now will be a huge step up for picture and sound quality from DVD.
> Your correct about the sub in that there is no substitute for displacement. "Bigger is better" but that said going with a internet direct company like HSU or SVS will get you a much better sub for the money if DIY is to much work for you.


 So get a cheap Blu-ray for now and upgrade in a couple years... makes sense. Especially since we'd need a 4K TV as well.

DIY is pretty much the whole point. I need something to tinker on and it's cheaper to build a surround sound system than it is to build a car.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Do you have a pawn shop?


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## Southern Gorilla (Sep 5, 2015)

willis7469 said:


> Do you have a pawn shop?


 I'm sure I can find one in the vicinity. But secondhand electronics definitely scare me.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Southern Gorilla said:


> I'm sure I can find one in the vicinity. But secondhand electronics definitely scare me.


 that's a valid point. But you could score speakers that might not be super mega awesome, (they might though) could certainly be an upgrade. Even if temporary. Make sure you can bring me back if they're junk. BD too?


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

Southern Gorilla said:


> The Lenard link was really about the crossover layout. I like the 4-way split. Technically, I think it would work out to be a 5-way since I'd add bigger subs for the really deep notes and cut the woofers at about 60 Hz. Yeah, it's a bit complicated. But I figure if I can rebuild an engine and assemble my own computer I can probably sort out the details of a speaker given time. I've always been a fan of jumping into the deep end rather than wading into the shallows.
> 
> Why not start with the speakers I linked? I know they're cheap and certainly not audiophile quality. But they still have to be better than the set that came with our surround system. They may eventually wind up being nothing more than external speakers for a sleep machine. So quality isn't a major concern. That being said... we will initially keep the speakers we currently have. At least until the new receiver blows them up.


The Lenard link shows large speakers but, from the information I can read, the crossover design is over-simplified and lacks measurements. Like I said you will be better off building a 2-way that your could use for surrounds after. By building a well-documented design, I mean a design for which there are measurements, XO schematics available etc., you will be able to understand the function for each component, learn speakers acoustic measurements and be a better designer (or at least be capable of identifying capable designers) before investing big money and time on larger speakers.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Look in local classified ads, eBay, Craigslist etc...you can find great deals. Speakers are one item that you usually can get used and not have to worry about anything if they worked when you bought them. I just read on FB where a guy bought a pair of Klipsch La Scalas in mint condition for $150 (used is anywhere from $500-$2000 depending on the condition). Now the La Scalas are big speakers and may not be what you are looking for, but it is to show you the deals are still out there if you keep looking. :T


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Southern Gorilla said:


> But if I buy the receiver first I know it would be more than our current speakers could handle. The receiver I'm looking at is rated at 140W/channel.... That being said... we will initially keep the speakers we currently have. At least until the new receiver blows them up.


Those speakers should be able to handle an amp that is rated above 1000W/channel. 
Just because an amp has that much power doesn't mean that you have to turn the volume up and blow up the speakers. A 140W/channel amp is not putting out 140W/channel all the time. Keep the volume knob down and it will probably only put out a few watts. Turn the volume knob up and the amp output goes up.
If you listen, the speakers will warn you before getting to the point of blowing up.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

gdstupak said:


> Those speakers should be able to handle an amp that is rated above 1000W/channel. Just because an amp has that much power doesn't mean that you have to turn the volume up and blow up the speakers. A 140W/channel amp is not putting out 140W/channel all the time. Keep the volume knob down and it will probably only put out a few watts. Turn the volume knob up and the amp output goes up. If you listen, the speakers will warn you before getting to the point of blowing up.


 yep. +1


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