# Power Cords for HT



## Joe11554 (Oct 15, 2014)

I know this is a controversial subject and am not trying to stir up anything. However, after using stock power cords for years and I like to try some aftermarket power cords to see what kind of impact, if any, they would have on my system. Not being knowledgeable about power cords I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction. My equipment consists of the following equipment with (PC) indication what needs a power cord exists:

Electronics
Krell 20i CD player (PC)
Innous Zenith MK3 music Server (PC)
Bryston SP3 Pre/Pro (PC)
YBA 2 Amplifier for Primary Gen V Speakers (PC)
2 YBA 2 Amplifiers (for surround and center) (2PC)
Torus AVR20 (toroidal Isolation Power transformer) (PC)

Speakers
Genesis Advanced Technologies V Speakers with external servo-amp (PC)
Genesis Advanced Technology 4/8 subwoofer with internal servo-amp (PC)
Genesis Advanced Technologies Surround Speakers (3 )

Since I have a requirement for 9 power cords, I will start with a couple of PC and then add more as finance allows if I feel its worthwhile. What pieces of equipment would provide the biggest bang for the buck? Roughly how much money does it take to start hearing true benefits and what is the price point for diminishing returns from a new power cord? Are there certain brands that offer more value so I can keep costs down?
Thanks
Joe


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## Joe11554 (Oct 15, 2014)

Since music is important I presume this is where I would see the biggest benefit from after market power cords when compared to HT


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

It's highly unlikely there will be any difference, but if there was music is probably where you would hear it. Most movie soundtracks are geared toward bluster with finesse of little importance. Music is frequently the opposite however.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

For me diminishing returns starts when you buy a new power cord. Improvements will come from speakers MUCH more than from electronics.


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## Joe11554 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thanks Guys. I am happy with my speakers and electronics and was just looking for ways to maximize performance.


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## SIY (Sep 18, 2009)

The aftermarket audio power cable business is a total scam. You mentioned that you didn't know much about power cables, and that's exactly what they're counting on. Don't enrich con artists.

If you want an upgrade, look at room treatments, room correction software, and additional subwoofers.


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## SoundManDale (Oct 31, 2013)

What is the feed from the power panel to the outlet? 14/3 Solid Romex,  12/3 Solid Romex ? what is the distance, what is the feed to the panel? If you have a cable supplied by the OEM I assume it suplys the required current. That's all you need. Changing the last 6' will not cause a observible difference unliss you switch to 24 gadge or something that starts a fire.


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## shene (Aug 3, 2014)

Joe11554 said:


> I know this is a controversial subject and am not trying to stir up anything. However, after using stock power cords for years and I like to try some aftermarket power cords to see what kind of impact, if any, they would have on my system. Not being knowledgeable about power cords I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction. My equipment consists of the following equipment with (PC) indication what needs a power cord exists:
> 
> Electronics
> Krell 20i CD player (PC)
> ...


My first move would be to be sure the equipment, especially the amps, have their own 20 amp circuit breaker. That would be 12 gauge wire from the main box to the location of your equipment. To run all your stuff off of a 15 amp breaker with 14 gauge wire, then put expensive fancy 10 gauge ish wire from a power cable seems kind of nuts. Now, once you have a 12 gauge to your equipment I would likely put a hefty wire to the amps first. I do not know how much power you are running or the speaker efficiency so I really cannot say much about the wire needed. Personally for me it is all in the speakers. Any transducer (changes electrical to mechanical like a speaker or changes mechanical to electrical like a phono cartridge) are the most critical things of all. In todays world maybe a good DAC and optical cable from or to the DAC. I do have some stuff that is wiring related but I really do not think it is anything to go nuts with. Get speakers that you like and a cartridge you like and go. I did get a PS audio Gain cell than has a dac and I think it sounds better than my Dacs in the Marantz cd player or my Oppo 205 cd player. Just early impression. I did make a few power cables and it starets with the end connectors costing about $50 a cable. Then cable for $8 a foot maybe. That makes you a cable sold complete for about $280 for under $100. To pay more than $100 for a power line is not worth while to me at least.


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## DEANO222 (Aug 20, 2013)

Joe11554 said:


> I know this is a controversial subject and am not trying to stir up anything. However, after using stock power cords for years and I like to try some aftermarket power cords to see what kind of impact, if any, they would have on my system. Not being knowledgeable about power cords I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction. My equipment consists of the following equipment with (PC) indication what needs a power cord exists:
> 
> Electronics
> Krell 20i CD player (PC)
> ...


I agree with the getting two dedicated lines from your breaker box, one for your stereo/ av gear preamp stuff and one for your power amps try Pangea 9se 7 gauge on your power amps cheap but quite good or try a heavy gauge 10 AWG Voodoo . Get all your computer gear off the dedicated lines use an isolated transformer with your switched mode stuff so the hash doesn't come back onto your a.c. lines. Where possible use linear power supplies on every bit of Computer equipment in your house. The noise floor will be beautifully low and your enjoyment will be improved. 
My brother comes to my house and always says how do you get it so quiet, that is how my friend . Don't listen to those experts who wouldn't spend a penny because science says you can't hear it that's their loss.


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## teop (Nov 29, 2017)

While we are on the subject of power lines from breakers, you might want to try those cryo mcb/circuit breaker upgrades.


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## DEANO222 (Aug 20, 2013)

teop said:


> While we are on the subject of power lines from breakers, you might want to try those cryo mcb/circuit breaker upgrades.


I would definitely look at a separate ground for the dedicated lines I don't know anything about cryogenic stuff so I defer to you to justify your own statement


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## GEO (Mar 10, 2008)

They will make no difference, if your requirement is well designed. Would you change what is in your wall? Upgrade the outlets? Change the AC wiring inside of each piece of equipment? What about the PCB traces?

It appears your's is so save your money and purchase new vinyl or something that you can enjoy.



Joe11554 said:


> I know this is a controversial subject and am not trying to stir up anything. However, after using stock power cords for years and I like to try some aftermarket power cords to see what kind of impact, if any, they would have on my system. Not being knowledgeable about power cords I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction. My equipment consists of the following equipment with (PC) indication what needs a power cord exists:


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## DEANO222 (Aug 20, 2013)

GEO said:


> They will make no difference, if your requirement is well designed. Would you change what is in your wall? Upgrade the outlets? Change the AC wiring inside of each piece of equipment? What about the PCB traces?
> 
> It appears your's is so save your money and purchase new vinyl or something that you can enjoy.


Can I ask have you ever tried an aftermarket power cord , RCA or XLR cables ?


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## Joe11554 (Oct 15, 2014)

I have both a 15 amp (14 gauge wire from garage fuse box - 45 feet) and 20 amp (12 gauge wire from Meter fuse box -35 feet)) dedicated line (solid Romex) to the wall behind my equipment. the 20 amp circuit feed a Torus Power isolation transformer AVR 20 amp. At this time the 20 Amp circuit being used for all equipment. I tried the 15 amp line but have a ground loop hum which I am going to use a Ground Zero Star Ground system to hopefully eliminate . The ground is the standard house ground from the fuse box but can look into a dedicated ground if necessary and if it doesn't violate any country ordinance.

I am presently using the cheap Home Depot outlets which I know I have to replace. 
IMO, although 25 years old the Genesis Advanced Technologies V speaker are very good speakers and since they have their own dedicated servo amp for the base, I do not need a lot of power for the mids and highs. 

I do not feel comfortable changing out wiring within the equipment. What is a PCB Trace?


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## Joe11554 (Oct 15, 2014)

Dean,
Yes for both kinds of interconnects and I do hear considerable difference. The only premium power cord I have came with my YBA amplifier.
Are you telling me the difference in power cords are similar to the difference in interconnects.


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## DEANO222 (Aug 20, 2013)

Joe11554 said:


> Dean,
> Yes for both kinds of interconnects and I do hear considerable difference. The only premium power cord I have came with my YBA amplifier.
> Are you telling me the difference in power cords are similar to the difference in interconnects.


No of course not just glad you least admit there is a change in sound from cables in general , not looking for an argument.


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## AEIOU (May 3, 2011)

Joe11554 said:


> I know this is a controversial subject and am not trying to stir up anything. However, after using stock power cords for years and I like to try some aftermarket power cords to see what kind of impact, if any, they would have on my system. Not being knowledgeable about power cords I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction. My equipment consists of the following equipment with (PC) indication what needs a power cord exists:
> 
> Electronics
> Krell 20i CD player (PC)
> ...


The thing is, it's you money and you can spend it any way you like. Diminishing returns? Mosty. Like a few others have said, you'll get the best improvement if you install dedicated power lines to your equipment. What good is it if the last 6ft of power cord is kilobuck expensive but the other 70 feet all the way back to the main breaker panel is standard residential. So, if you plan on upgrading your power cords, at least upgrade the Outlets, replace the standard Duplex Receptacles with something much better.


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## Joe11554 (Oct 15, 2014)

DEANO222 said:


> No of course not just glad you least admit there is a change in sound from cables in general , not looking for an argument.


No Argument, I really meant can the change in power cords be as distinctive as the change in interconnects.!
I find significant differences between standard and high quality interconnects.


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## Joe11554 (Oct 15, 2014)

AEIOU, 
I was away from this technology for the past 25 years and only now, upon retiring can I get back into updating areas of my system that justify the expense. 
I ask what may be basic question because to me this is either new technology (ie music servers) or thing I could not afford to consider 25 years ago. 
I can see that it may not be cost effective to spend big bucks on power cords, but is it worthwhile to make your own, buy used or new relatively inexpensive cords such as Pangea? 

Of course this is after getting new outlets, of which I am open for suggestions as to what types or brands.


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## AEIOU (May 3, 2011)

Joe11554 said:


> AEIOU,
> I was away from this technology for the past 25 years and only now, upon retiring can I get back into updating areas of my system that justify the expense.
> I ask what may be basic question because to me this is either new technology (ie music servers) or thing I could not afford to consider 25 years ago.
> I can see that it may not be cost effective to spend big bucks on power cords, but is it worthwhile to make your own, buy used or new relatively inexpensive cords such as Pangea?
> ...


Yes, it is worth it to use good power cords. Yes, absolutely make your own or buy used, save some money. Yes, I have upgraded power cords on some of my equipment, but only to the Gauge that is required by the current draw for that particular piece of equipment. Your're not dealing with a complex musical signal or complex impedances here, it's 115VAC 60Hz. If anything, make sure your power if clean, filtered and no DC or noise and you'll reap the most benefits.


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## AEIOU (May 3, 2011)

Joe11554 said:


> I know this is a controversial subject and am not trying to stir up anything. However, after using stock power cords for years and I like to try some aftermarket power cords to see what kind of impact, if any, they would have on my system. Not being knowledgeable about power cords I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction. My equipment consists of the following equipment with (PC) indication what needs a power cord exists:
> 
> Electronics
> Krell 20i CD player (PC)
> ...


Many of us have already told you the truth, but you decline to believe it. In such a case as yours go ahead and buy a bunch of expensive power cords, reduce your anxiety and enjoy the peace of mind that comes from knowing you have the best power cords.


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## Joe11554 (Oct 15, 2014)

Thank you everyone for your assistance. I will get back to you if I have further questions.


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## DEANO222 (Aug 20, 2013)

Agree a big power amp that draws heavily needs 10 AWG make your own just make sure there are no stray wires


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## shene (Aug 3, 2014)

You might try a pair of interconnects from BlueJeans Cable. If you find that you really like them great. If you don't like them as much as those that you hear a significant differenc you would likely be out less then $50 with shipping. If that is too much to risk, you can just get a few feet of their cable types and a couple of pair of rca connectors.


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## GEO (Mar 10, 2008)

That tells me a lot. A PCB trace is a printed Circuit Board trace.



Joe11554 said:


> I have both a 15 amp (14 gauge wire from garage fuse box - 45 feet) and 20 amp (12 gauge wire from Meter fuse box -35 feet)) dedicated line (solid Romex) to the wall behind my equipment. the 20 amp circuit feed a Torus Power isolation transformer AVR 20 amp. At this time the 20 Amp circuit being used for all equipment. I tried the 15 amp line but have a ground loop hum which I am going to use a Ground Zero Star Ground system to hopefully eliminate . The ground is the standard house ground from the fuse box but can look into a dedicated ground if necessary and if it doesn't violate any country ordinance.
> 
> I am presently using the cheap Home Depot outlets which I know I have to replace.
> IMO, although 25 years old the Genesis Advanced Technologies V speaker are very good speakers and since they have their own dedicated servo amp for the base, I do not need a lot of power for the mids and highs.
> ...


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## GEO (Mar 10, 2008)

Frankly, I don't know what that is.

This is going to be long and will no doubt upset some people. If you flame me, we will all know I am correct and you are not. If you ask me sensible questions, I will try my best to provide a honest and unbiased answer. Science and facts have no bias.

However, all interconnects are after market. Changing out a properly designed power cord is not worth the expense and hassle. Neither will it improve anything.

Let's get real here. You can not "improve" the sound that is on your recorded media.Sure, throwing an EQ into the system will change the sound, possibly in the direction you like. More bass, flatter mids..... I guess that is an improvement. hah!

A recording consists of audio to electrical transducer, connected to a mixer, often through many stages of sound modifying equipment interconnected with what are commonly called snakes. Mogami is often the snake of choice in a recording environment. They are really nothing special. The modified sound is then recorded on to some storage medium. The sound is now fixed.

At home you may play it back from analog storage medium, or digital. The former's quality will be determined by the mechanical to electrical transducer. That is an important part of the playback system. And vibration can have a negative impact on the transducer's capability to convert the mechanical energy to electrical energy.

If it is the latter, the approximated, sampled, sound is what you get. The laser reads pits in a plastic covered metal disk, often made of aluminum. Vibration or a special green magic maker on the edge of the disk will have NO effect. It's ones & zeros, period.

Whatever interconnects you use, unless they are pure ****, will not make the sound any better. Plus, are you going to change the wiring in your tonearm, speakers and equipment? However, there is another transducer that will also have a major impact on the reproduced sound. That is your speakers, an electrical to mechanical transducer. We normally chose speakers that "talk" to us. Hopefully they will sound as good at home as in the store. Some choose speakers and other pieces of their equipment based on cost. The more it cost, the better it must be, right? Again, I'm not talking about **** here. Those people tend to listen to and talk about their expensive equipment, not listen to the music.

Much of the popular music that is recorded today is very compressed so there is no dynamic range so it can easily be played loud. Why spend big bucks just to play it loud?

I did a double blind test for a stereo mag in the mid 1970's for some speaker cable that was just being introduced and was supposed to be the cat's meow. Everything was controlled with witnesses and all that stuff. The attendees listened and wrote their comments. Often they asked to have it changed back and forth.. All witnessed and at the end signed off by everyone. they all said they could discern the difference. I never changed the cables once, which was verified by the witnesses. The speakers were fed with #12 zipcord. The new "better" cable just laid there, never touched. You should have heard the howling.

That my friend, was the effect of psychoacoustics. And there are many many vendors out there using that to pry money from your wallet as I type.

I'm an engineer and I've been involved in the audio world for over 60 years. And yes, my hearing is becoming lossy. But I still enjoy my music, and playing live music.

IMHO, the important takeaway I want to finally present is that this is a hobby. Enjoy it. Spend as much or as little as you wish. Don't belittle someone else's system. You might learn something there. Remember the term, psychoacoustics. And to be cognizant that physics always wins, be sure which side you choose..



DEANO222 said:


> Can I ask have you ever tried an aftermarket power cord , RCA or XLR cables ?


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## DEANO222 (Aug 20, 2013)

Yep your right you just denigrated every music playback system with your superior knowledge. I don't care different cables , including power cables bring about changes in the sound. Sometimes the enjoyment is the shiny new object ever thought of that.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

GEO said:


> Frankly, I don't know what that is.
> 
> This is going to be long and will no doubt upset some people. If you flame me, we will all know I am correct and you are not. If you ask me sensible questions, I will try my best to provide a honest and unbiased answer. Science and facts have no bias.
> 
> ...


This...


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## AEIOU (May 3, 2011)

GEO said:


> Frankly, I don't know what that is.
> 
> This is going to be long and will no doubt upset some people. If you flame me, we will all know I am correct and you are not. If you ask me sensible questions, I will try my best to provide a honest and unbiased answer. Science and facts have no bias.
> 
> ...


So, is your house so old that it actually still has fuses? A torus transformer is properly called a toroidal transformer, since you are an "Engineer" you should know that (look it up).


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## RichardTS (May 15, 2014)

DEANO222 said:


> I agree with the getting two dedicated lines from your breaker box, one for your stereo/ av gear preamp stuff and one for your power amps try Pangea 9se 7 gauge on your power amps cheap but quite good or try a heavy gauge 10 AWG Voodoo . Get all your computer gear off the dedicated lines use an isolated transformer with your switched mode stuff so the hash doesn't come back onto your a.c. lines. Where possible use linear power supplies on every bit of Computer equipment in your house. The noise floor will be beautifully low and your enjoyment will be improved.
> My brother comes to my house and always says how do you get it so quiet, that is how my friend . Don't listen to those experts who wouldn't spend a penny because science says you can't hear it that's their loss.


Ok, if you are running a 20 amp circuit with 12 gauge wire, any larger wire in the circuit is a waste of time.


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## AEIOU (May 3, 2011)

RichardTS said:


> Ok, if you are running a 20 amp circuit with 12 gauge wire, any larger wire in the circuit is a waste of time.


Not so much a waste of time as a waste of money. Don't forget though that with really long runs you are required to increase the Gauge. Anyway, a larger gauge of in wall Romex won't hurt anything, but there will be little if any difference.


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## Joe11554 (Oct 15, 2014)

GEO said:


> That tells me a lot. A PCB trace is a printed Circuit Board trace.


GEO,
I am glad that tells you a lot! Not all of us may have your vast wisdom, but at least we respect people and their comments without snide remarks. Keep the conversation open but think before you reply. Enough said.


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## gewiz44 (Oct 24, 2007)

My $.02 for what it's worth (2 cents). I have been a home theater enthusiast for over 40 years. I started with a reel to reel tape recorder and Pioneer receiver with ADS speakers and really enjoyed the music and sound. Then for a time got caught up in the tweaking stage to try to make it sound better. My focus turned from enjoying the music and sound to listening for problems or anything that might be “wrong” either imagined or real. I would “A,B” different speaker wire, patch cables, surge protectors, etc. In the process, I no longer was enjoying the music because I was always listening for what was or could be wrong. I finally came to the conclusion that it doesn’t have to sound like I’m sitting in the studio watching the artist making the recording. The job of audio and video manufacturers and their retail outlets is to make you unhappy with your existing setup and it has worked on me but sometimes it good to just step back and enjoy what you have without trying to find fault with it. Remember, your glass is half full too.


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## AEIOU (May 3, 2011)

gewiz44 said:


> My $.02 for what it's worth (2 cents). I have been a home theater enthusiast for over 40 years. I started with a reel to reel tape recorder and Pioneer receiver with ADS speakers and really enjoyed the music and sound. Then for a time got caught up in the tweaking stage to try to make it sound better. My focus turned from enjoying the music and sound to listening for problems or anything that might be “wrong” either imagined or real. I would “A,B” different speaker wire, patch cables, surge protectors, etc. In the process, I no longer was enjoying the music because I was always listening for what was or could be wrong. I finally came to the conclusion that it doesn’t have to sound like I’m sitting in the studio watching the artist making the recording. The job of audio and video manufacturers and their retail outlets is to make you unhappy with your existing setup and it has worked on me but sometimes it good to just step back and enjoy what you have without trying to find fault with it. Remember, your glass is half full too.


Were there any high definition, high fidelity integrated Home Theater Systems 40 years ago? I remember shopping in a variety of stereo stores way back then, but I do not recall seeing any large screen TVs or center channel and surround sound loudspeakers.


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## gewiz44 (Oct 24, 2007)

OK, I said "home theater enthusiast" I should have said in the beginning, home stereo enthusiast. That doesn’t mean that when large screen TV's and surround sound became available 15 to 20 years later that I didn't make the jump to Home Theater which I did. They did have “Fresnel lenses” to put in front of your TV to make it look bigger and plans for a box to project your TV on the wall so maybe that could be classified as “large screen”. For what it's worth I am currently using a Denon AVR-X4400h, Epson 5030ub projector, Sharp 80" TV, Oppo blu-ray player, HT 3500 surge protector, Klipsh etc. So I do upgrade once in a while. While it's not McIntosh and Bowers & Wilkens, it still sounds pretty good to me. Anyway, you’re missing the point. What I AM saying is that when you are listening for what is wrong with your set up, you’re not enjoying the program material you purchased to listen to and or watch on your set up. In other words, if you’re always chasing the perfect sound or video reproduction, you’re not enjoying the program. Be my guest, spend all the money and time you want to achieve that extra 2% of clarity or definition someone else might be bragging about. All I am saying is until the next big meaningful leap in technology, I would rather sit back and enjoy the blu-ray, music, or streaming material that I purchased the equipment to hear and watch it with.


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## AEIOU (May 3, 2011)

gewiz44 said:


> OK, I said "home theater enthusiast" I should have said in the beginning, home stereo enthusiast. That doesn’t mean that when large screen TV's and surround sound became available 15 to 20 years later that I didn't make the jump to Home Theater which I did. They did have “Fresnel lenses” to put in front of your TV to make it look bigger and plans for a box to project your TV on the wall so maybe that could be classified as “large screen”. For what it's worth I am currently using a Denon AVR-X4400h, Epson 5030ub projector, Sharp 80" TV, Oppo blu-ray player, HT 3500 surge protector, Klipsh etc. So I do upgrade once in a while. While it's not McIntosh and Bowers & Wilkens, it still sounds pretty good to me. Anyway, you’re missing the point. What I AM saying is that when you are listening for what is wrong with your set up, you’re not enjoying the program material you purchased to listen to and or watch on your set up. In other words, if you’re always chasing the perfect sound or video reproduction, you’re not enjoying the program. Be my guest, spend all the money and time you want to achieve that extra 2% of clarity or definition someone else might be bragging about. All I am saying is until the next big meaningful leap in technology, I would rather sit back and enjoy the blu-ray, music, or streaming material that I purchased the equipment to hear and watch it with.


No, I wasn't missing your point, I was just being flippant towards your comments. I've been an AUDIOPHILE since the mid '70s, though mostly unable to afford the equipment that I'd really like to own.


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## Joe11554 (Oct 15, 2014)

GEO, 
I understand what you are saying and couldn't agree more. I purchased my system back in 1994 and turned away from chasing audio equipment and just enjoyed the music my system presented over the years. This is my first venture back into stereo equipment since my original purchase and at the same time I am trying to incorporate a home theater system. I am a glutton for punishment. 

I have been asking questions is to see how the audio world has changed since the early 1990's. Fortunately, I am still very pleased with my 2 channel system and only recently did I incorporate a music server to get me out of the stone age. 

Personally, twenty five years ago I could hear differences between interconnects and speaker cables, so my questions about Power Cords is justified. I can clearly understand why some people belief that a few feet of AC cable can not drastically change your sound, but at the same time I can understand arguments that you can get small to moderate improvements in the right system or to the right ears. This may simply be due to proper wire sizing of your PC, better terminations or just tone control, who knows. But each person has the right to evaluate if there exists a cost vs performance gain, if any and then determine if it justifies the cost to them. 

Once I complete updating my system it will probably be, god willing, another 25 years before I upgrade again. The point is I am not chasing the holy grail, simply trying to upgrade my system and the first step towards that goal is asking question to update my knowledge so that I can make wise decisions without wasting my finances.


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## Joe11554 (Oct 15, 2014)

Oh, BTW
The "that tells me a lot" comment.
"The only fool is the one that doesn't ask the question about something when he doesn't understand it."
Joe


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## AEIOU (May 3, 2011)

Joe11554 said:


> Oh, BTW
> The "that tells me a lot" comment.
> "The only fool is the one that doesn't ask the question about something when he doesn't understand it."
> Joe


I've joined, supported the DIY community, in hopes of achieving my goal of owning better sounding equipment.


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## gewiz44 (Oct 24, 2007)

AEIOU said:


> No, I wasn't missing your point, I was just being flippant towards your comments. I've been an AUDIOPHILE since the mid '70s, though mostly unable to afford the equipment that I'd really like to own.


It's just a suggestion, not a mandate. I am the same as you, "mostly unable to afford the equipment that I'd really like to own". My first reel to reel was a Nerelco portable and I worked my way up to a used ReVox. What I have done is research equipment and specifacations then look on ebay, craigslist, and offer up for used equipment that came close to what I want at a price I can afford. I'm sure you have nice equipment that looks and sounds good. I hope you can enjoy it until your able to afford somthing better.
Regards,


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## Joe11554 (Oct 15, 2014)

Why not if you have the capabilities. Bet you save a lot of money, but I would not disregard the used market.
I don't have the electrical knowledge to feel comfortable such as what is presented in that forum.
good luck
joe


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## gewiz44 (Oct 24, 2007)

You will find a lot of good advice here. I built a DYI subwoofer 8 or 9 years ago and found the help of the members here highly valuable. There is a lot of knowledge and good advice available here. I'm sure they can offer or refer you to the answers you need. This is a good resource for all of us.


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## Joe11554 (Oct 15, 2014)

Agreed, I find the people most helpful and very knowledgeable.
For used equipment I have used audiogon.com, Canuckaudiomart.com and usaudiomart.com.
Considering the exchange rate of $1 USA to $0.75 Canadian, you get an instant 25% discount on canuckaudiomart.com.
I never had any problem with purchasing on any of these sites, but I is always possible.
Joe


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## gewiz44 (Oct 24, 2007)

Good idea but depending on the piece of equipment and weight, the shipping could be excessive. (just like eBay).
Regards,


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## RichardTS (May 15, 2014)

I have followed this discussion from the beginning and note that the folks who hear a difference in wire vs the ones that don't are arguing the exact same points as were argued in the '80's. So let me tell you a little story.

In the '80's I was a very hard core esoteric equipment audiophile. I had had Magnepan speakers followed up with Emminent Technology LFT-VIII's. I was using an Electrocompaniet pre and power combo that cost about $4,600 together in the '80's (how much is that in today's dollars?). I had and still have a SOTA Sapphire turntable with a Kiseki Purple Heart MC cart and matching Kiseki arm. The vinyl playback combo was worth $2,500 in 1980 dollars. I had numerous high end interconnects and speaker wire. Hell, I even have pure (99.9999%) silver Van den Hul tonearm wiring from the cart to the preamp. I have no idea what I spent in wire. And I still was not in audio nirvana even though every single person who listened to my system commented that it sounded great.

Fast forward to 2009. My local Klipsch dealer was willing to sell me two Lascala II's for a song. Now like everyone hears regularly that horn speakers sound, well, like horns and in the high end community Klipsch is just not considered good at all. So I bring the Lascalas home, run Audessey on them along with the 12" sub and sit down to listen to some music.

Guess what? It was the absolute best sound I have EVER had in my house. For all you hard core esoteric audiophiles pay close attention to the next statement:

For years and years I was in search of that last nuance and spent a ton of money trying to get it. The Lascalas simply sound like great big live music the likes of which none of my other speakers can or could ever touch. They image every bit as good as the Emminent Technology's. They take little or no power and distortion is non-existent. They sound wonderful at any volume and just get better the more you turn them up(until they overpower the room). I no longer search for better equipment; I JUST LISTEN TO THE MUSIC NOW!

And I have 14 gauge Home Depot speaker wire running from my remote receiver location through walls and attic to my living room. The runs are about 40-50'. None of my equipment has special power cables; just the one that came with the unit. Why do I use wire like this? Because Paul Klipsch recommended 18 gauge LAMP CORD for Klipschorns! I use 14 only because of the run length.

Until you experience something like this you will just continue your search and spend a lot of money doing so. End of story.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

RichardTS said:


> I have followed this discussion from the beginning and note that the folks who hear a difference in wire vs the ones that don't are arguing the exact same points as were argued in the '80's. So let me tell you a little story.
> 
> In the '80's I was a very hard core esoteric equipment audiophile. I had had Magnepan speakers followed up with Emminent Technology LFT-VIII's. I was using an Electrocompaniet pre and power combo that cost about $4,600 together in the '80's (how much is that in today's dollars?). I had and still have a SOTA Sapphire turntable with a Kiseki Purple Heart MC cart and matching Kiseki arm. The vinyl playback combo was worth $2,500 in 1980 dollars. I had numerous high end interconnects and speaker wire. Hell, I even have pure (99.9999%) silver Van den Hul tonearm wiring from the cart to the preamp. I have no idea what I spent in wire. And I still was not in audio nirvana even though every single person who listened to my system commented that it sounded great.
> 
> ...


Agreed totally. 
If you want to change your sound. It’s almost completely in the speakers.


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## Da Wiz (May 8, 2019)

Much depends on HOW YOU LISTEN. Contrary to what everybody thinks, there are MANY ways people listen to music and lots of us are NOT listening to the same things or in the same way. Example: I knew, for a while, a guy who was a jazz musician and he manufactured with his own hands, one at a time, pre-amps and amps. He was very very good at it. Somehow we got to listening and talking about cables and power cords and I had some with me and he said he hadn't heard any differences with his setup. So we changed something, don't recall what it was now, this was in the mid-1990s. He said he didn't hear a difference, I said the cable I brought had a warmer sound than what he was using. He swore nothing was different so we listened to 2 more different kinds of music, but all jazz. Nothing. Impasse. I heard something, he didn't. So I asked to to explain to me exactly what he was listening to while judging and he said he was listening to the communication between the musicians, how one setup a solo for the next guy and so on through the recording. How the ensemble played together, and how, when they were playing together, they would call and reply to each other. I'm sitting there flabbergasted. It had never occurred to me that anybody was listening to music like that. Then he said: "Why were you being so still with your eyes closed?" And I said because having my eyes open is distracting, I can't focus as much on the music. My brain uses a lot of processing power on vision, but when I turn my vision "off" (close my eyes), my hearing and focus on the music is almost like using a microscope on the music. I would listen to the QUALITY of the acoustic bass, the chest-thump from kick drums, the sounds of the body of each instrument combining with the notes, the fingering of buttons and levers on horns, reed sound, violin bow interfacing with strings right up close. Resonances of instrument bodies, tone, color... NOTHING the other guy was listening to.

If you don't listen the way I was listening (and that is FINE, if you enjoy music listening YOUR way, more power to you), you aren't likely to hear the same things I hear. When I turn on a movie with 12 channels of sound... my brain literally listens completely differently and NONE of the differences I hear with power cords and interconnects make a worthwhile change. I don't know how much brain power vision requires, but I suspect it is a lot more processing power than what is assigned to hearing. So when your eyes are open, hearing is less "focused" in my opinion. So... if you listen to music in a dark room with your eyes closed and imagine each instrument being played and how every note sounds individually and together and how big or small the recording space is or what that rumble is way in the background (some recordings I have made in a church after midnight in NYC have low frequency rumbles from the subway trains going under the church)? That's not how a lot of people listen and I would suggest, that if you aren't listening that way, don't bother with spending a bunch on cables and a $3000 DAC instead of a $200 DAC, etc. I believe the differences are real, and it is also true that what we know about signals in wires for music is incomplete. But CERTAINLY, you will never convince anybody who listens to music as just entertainment with eyes open and not focusing on anything but lyrics and melody (or how jazz musicians "talk" to each other) that cables will make a meaningful difference for them. When you aren't the sort of listener who focuses on subtle details, individual instruments and details of each note (was that a violin, or a viola? Steel, bronze, or gut strings on that guitar?), and you never focus on the size of the apparent space in the recording (left-right, sometimes front-back, and rarely high/low, live recordings of acoustic instruments in performance spaces are best for that, but some studio recordings have it too, and sometimes it is artificial but still adds interest to the music) and you are in a dark room with eyes closed and zero distractions that cables and wires will enhance their listening experience. You just aren't listening the same way (that is not good or bad, it just is what it is). So there's really no sense arguing. I hear incredible detail in good stereo recordings and I love finding every little nuance of sound over 6 or 12 listens over time. I don't focus all that much on specific lyrics, but more on the quality of the voice and how it combines with instruments. When I listen to music, within a few seconds I can go into a state where my wife thinks I am asleep, but if she walks across the room in front of me, I can "see" her outline in the soundstage of the music and more than once I've called out her name while she was trying to prove I was asleep by sneaking around while I was listening to music. Those were the few times in my life where I understood what blind people say about being able to build moderately useful "pictures" in their heads of the spaces they are in. In spite of being blind, they can sense directions in the building, large openings, generally have a fairly good idea of how big the space is, and how close or far people are. I never used to understand how that could happen until I experienced it for myself while in that music listening meditative state.

All that said, I've never seen ANY power cord change the video image quality on any digital video display from as far back as 2006 until today (and I've used more than 100 different new video displays in that time period. But change to stereo music and close eyes... whole different story. I like listening to music with AuroMatic processing (the upmixer that comes with Auro-3D). In fact, I like AuroMatic more than stereo music now because I can get music into 12 channels and all that extra information in the room keeps me from getting into that analytic mode and I can just let the music go... and I do that often because there are just times I want to relax without being focused on details.


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## RichardTS (May 15, 2014)

I agree that people listen differently because I used to listen differently when I was an all-in audiophile. I am also a musician and believe that is why the Lascalas were such a treat to me. Because musicians not only listen totally differently but even more critically than do audiophiles. 

A musician in an orchestra must do many different things all at the same time. And every one of these things require listening. A wind instrument player must dynamically correct for tuning (musicians call this intonation) continuously while playing. At the same time they must a) listen to all the other musicians, b) listen to their own attack and tone, c) ensure that their attack and tone is in sync with the other musicians, d) count, e) watch the conductor for cues and f) read music. Note I said at the same time. And they cannot close their eyes while doing so. Musicians do not have the luxury of cutting off one sense to enhance another.

Now this brings us to another point. It is my experience that musicians are not generally audiophiles. Why? Because I believe that they fill in the blanks where stuff is missing and they throw away the superfluous stuff that is irrelevant to the music. It has been said (and only musicians can appreciate this) that symphonies were not written not for audiences but for the musicians in the orchestra because they are the only ones who can truly appreciate the composition. This is because they are in the middle of the music experiencing it in a way the audience cannot. Sort of like a 100 channel surround system.

All of this leads us to why certain speakers appeal to musicians and others do not. Speakers are generally either musical or accurate. It is very difficult to have both in a speaker. For me Lascalas do the music very well because they make the sound ‘big’ like a live orchestra. My Emminent Technology LFT VIII’s were very accurate and imaged exceedingly well. But the sound was ‘small’ and did not adequately convey the live music experience to the listener like the Lascalas do. This is very difficult to describe but very real. In short the Electrocompaniet slogan applies - “If music matters”. And that, simply, is what I was trying to say in my original post. I have graduated from focusing on the sound and clarity of individual instruments on the soundstage to the size and impact of the music itself.

But different folks like different things and that’s what makes this hobby fun.


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## DavidMW (Mar 20, 2008)

RichardTS said:


> For years and years I was in search of that last nuance and spent a ton of money trying to get it. The Lascalas simply sound like great big live music the likes of which none of my other speakers can or could ever touch. They image every bit as good as the Emminent Technology's. They take little or no power and distortion is non-existent. They sound wonderful at any volume and just get better the more you turn them up(until they overpower the room). I no longer search for better equipment; I JUST LISTEN TO THE MUSIC NOW!


Back in the 90's I picked up my brother in laws Klipsh Heresys. Not nearly as wonderful as the Lascalas, but when I played them for my wife I asked her if she could hear more than what she heard using headphones. It was clear and she could hear it. In the following years I can't tell you how many times I would be out of the room and hear a piano being played. Not a recording of a piano, but a real piano (there was also a real one in the room). I have not found other speakers capable of this feat.


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## RichardTS (May 15, 2014)

DavidMW said:


> Back in the 90's I picked up my brother in laws Klipsh Heresys. Not nearly as wonderful as the Lascalas, but when I played them for my wife I asked her if she could hear more than what she heard using headphones. It was clear and she could hear it. In the following years I can't tell you how many times I would be out of the room and hear a piano being played. Not a recording of a piano, but a real piano (there was also a real one in the room). I have not found other speakers capable of this feat.


And that’s exactly why I have them. One of Paul Klipsch’s favorite demos was a recording of a car door closing. I guarantee you would think a car was right in the room. Besides that music just sounds like music.


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## gargmukul121 (Nov 11, 2020)

I am happy with my speakers and electronics and was just looking for ways to maximize performance. get-mxplayer.in


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## shene (Aug 3, 2014)

Joe11554 said:


> I have both a 15 amp (14 gauge wire from garage fuse box - 45 feet) and 20 amp (12 gauge wire from Meter fuse box -35 feet)) dedicated line (solid Romex) to the wall behind my equipment. the 20 amp circuit feed a Torus Power isolation transformer AVR 20 amp. At this time the 20 Amp circuit being used for all equipment. I tried the 15 amp line but have a ground loop hum which I am going to use a Ground Zero Star Ground system to hopefully eliminate . The ground is the standard house ground from the fuse box but can look into a dedicated ground if necessary and if it doesn't violate any country ordinance.
> 
> I am presently using the cheap Home Depot outlets which I know I have to replace.
> IMO, although 25 years old the Genesis Advanced Technologies V speaker are very good speakers and since they have their own dedicated servo amp for the base, I do not need a lot of power for the mids and highs.
> ...


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## shene (Aug 3, 2014)

You do want a nice stable power supply feeding the electronic circuits. Much of that is provided by a good power supply, capacitors and diodes, in youtr equipment. Some people want support fot that and use a power regenerator or other bigger package of caps in the power sourse in front of the equipment to be sure there is no dip in dc power due to some sags caused by big draw. A regenerator does provide more filtered power and bigger capacitor banks. So if you do not have a 10 gage wire from your main circuit box, you can store some ahead of the equipment and use a very low resistance wire from there to your equipment. To try to do this from a normal wall circuit with a 14 gage wire to the receptacle is kind of nuts but if you have a nice power reservoir that can buffer dips, it is not crazy to have a bigger gage wire from that reservoir to your equipment. Depending upon the quality of the equipment internal power supply it may or maynot make much if any difference. Even so it is getting to deminishing returns. Speakers you really like and a good amplifier a decent preamp both with strong power supplies have the biggest impac. Again the biggest thing is transducers, source components like phono cartridge and speakers. If you have a problem with the sound look into some room treatemnt. Sometimes tweaks like expensive cables do make people feel good evenif they are not having much real impact on the sound.


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