# Which would be a better TV for $1000?



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Okay, I don't know much about the ins and outs of high def, so maybe you guys can clue me in.

I've been half-heartedly shopping for a decent used 50" plasma TV and have noticed that the prices on 1080p's have come way down. 

The question: Which would be a better buy: A used Pioneer PDP-5070HD (top rated by C-Net and other reviewers) with 720p resolution for $900-1000, or a new Samsung PN50B550T2F 1080p for about the same price? Or maybe a Samsung 720p model for a few hundred less?

We'll be using it with a DirecTV HD-DVR, if that makes a difference.

Also - how do these TVs do with standard rez programming? Most of the flat screens I've seen, it's practically unwatchable - looks like VHS. Why can't they do standard def at least as good as a standard def display? :huh: At least that's watchable.

Regards,
Wayne


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## tonyvdb

Personally, I would go with a display that can do 1080p particularly if you plan to watch allot of HD material. 
The main reason the new displays dont do well with SD material is simply they have one native resolution. CRT displays had the advantage of simply changing the resolution to fit the incoming signal LCD, DLP, and Plasma can only do one resolution and have to "upconvert" the signal to fit the amount of lines that are available and some do an ok job and others fail badly. The one thing to do particularly with SD material is do not run the sharpness above 35% and keep all the noise reduction and other filters off as this usually just makes the picture look even more blockey and un-natural.
How far back do you plan on sitting from the display also plays a big part in how good (or bad) the SD material looks. If you sit close (less than 8' a 50") is not going to look all that great with SD video.


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## davidburn

I just recently purchased a Samsung ps50b550 1080p 50" plasma and it displays sd material good but not if you sit to close, but with full hd material its exceptional. I still think that large lcd are a better allrounder for any material, pc, sd and hd. But still very happy with my 50" Plasma.


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## eugovector

The 720 vs 1080 question is also heavily influenced by how close you sit, so, how close will you be sitting Wayne?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

We're sitting 10 ft. away. My son, who's a professional installer, also says the 1080p would be better for the money, so I guess I'm leaning that way. He has a 720p that looks just fine to me with DirecTV. I think he said that that 1080i and 720p look about the same? I think DirecTV is mostly one of those...

However, the reviews I've seen of a few $1000 50" plasmas say they don't do blacks that well. So I dunno...

This also concerns me:


> CRT displays had the advantage of simply changing the resolution to fit the incoming signal LCD, DLP, and Plasma can only do one resolution and have to "upconvert" the signal to fit the amount of lines that are available and some do an ok job and others fail badly.


Does that mean that 720p programming from satellite on a 1080p TV will look worse than it would on a 720p TV?

Regards,
Wayne


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## tonyvdb

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Does that mean that 720p programming from satellite on a 1080p TV will look worse than it would on a 720p TV?
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


I am fairly sure that all HD programing is in 1080i. I dont think Dish or any other satt provider does 720p anymore.


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## SteveCallas

I'd go with the new Samsung - 1080 over 720 is nice, but more important to me would be that I'd have a newer set with more HD inputs, better processing, and a warranty.

Used is great for audio equipment and media, but I have and will always go new with display equipment.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Another concern:


> CRT displays had the advantage of simply changing the resolution to fit the incoming signal LCD, DLP, and Plasma can only do one resolution and have to "upconvert" the signal to fit the amount of lines that are available and some do an ok job and others fail badly.


Does that mean that regular (non-blu ray) DVDs will look better on a 720p set than a 1080p?

Regards,
Wayne


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## tonyvdb

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Does that mean that regular (non-blu ray) DVDs will look better on a 720p set than a 1080p?
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


No, DVDs will look great on a 1080p display just as good as a 720p display. The big problem is that SD material is not even as good as a DVD movie. Most SD shows are 250 lines of resolution blown up to 50" is bound to show allot of imperfections where as DVDs are 480 lines with little compression and much better quality to start with. It does not really matter how much the image has to be upconverted the process just makes the quality look poor on large displays.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

K - thanks for all the info!

Next question (with any luck, the last ): Is 50" to large for a 10-ft distance?

Regards,
Wayne


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## tonyvdb

I have a CRT RPTV in our livingroom thats equivalent to a 48" 16x9 image it does 1080i and I sit 12' away and it looks great. I would not go larger than 50" at 10' but personally I think your ok with that distance.


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## lcaillo

tonyvdb said:


> I am fairly sure that all HD programing is in 1080i. I dont think Dish or any other satt provider does 720p anymore.


That would be incorrect information.


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## lcaillo

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> K - thanks for all the info!
> 
> Next question (with any luck, the last ): Is 50" to large for a 10-ft distance?
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


Absolutely not too large. I have been selling, installing, and servicing sets for nearly 30 years and very rarely do people want to go smaller rather than larger. My suggestion is get the largest set that you can afford and fit into your location. Also, get the higher resolution. Remember, with movies, you will be using only part of the screen if you watch in OAR, and the same for 4:3 material. 

The Samsung PDPs that I have seen recently have been quite good, though I still have questions about Samsung and build quality in general. I would probably get the Samsung 1080 set and shop for an extended warranty.


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## SteveCallas

Wayne, I have a 52" and I sit 6.5' back. Definitely not too large....if anything, a 65" would hit the spot.

I'd say a 50" at 10' is too small :no:


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

SteveCallas said:


> Wayne, I have a 52" and I sit 6.5' back. Definitely not too large....if anything, a 65" would hit the spot.
> 
> I'd say a 50" at 10' is too small :no:


LOL – love it! However, we would like to be able to see out the back window! 



lcaillo said:


> tonyvdb said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am fairly sure that all HD programing is in 1080i. I dont think Dish or any other satt provider does 720p anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be incorrect information.
Click to expand...

LOL –don’t leave us hanging, Leonard! IIR when I was poking around on the Web some months back on this topic, 1080i for cable and sat is what I was seeing. So what is the right answer then?

Plus, that leave my original question begging for an answer:


> CRT displays had the advantage of simply changing the resolution to fit the incoming signal LCD, DLP, and Plasma can only do one resolution and have to "upconvert" the signal to fit the amount of lines that are available and some do an ok job and others fail badly.


So - does that mean that 720p programming from satellite on a 1080p TV will look worse than it would on the “correct” 720p TV?

Regards,
Wayne


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## lcaillo

The correct answer is, as usual, it depends. Some networks broadcast 720p and some 1080i. Of course, lots of stuff is still upconverted HTSC, which is usually 480p. Some movies may be broadcast on the sats as 1080p.

You can set nearly all satellite receivers and cable boxes to upconvert and output everything at 1080i, but this is often inferior to the scaling in most displays. 

With a 50" at your distance, you may not see the difference b/w 1080 and 720, but I would still get the higher resolution set. At that distance I think the difference is still enough to matter, though for many it would make no difference.


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## eugovector

This article really should be a sticky somewhere: http://carltonbale.com/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/

Wayne, read that regarding size vs. seating distance vs. resolution. At 10' and 50", 1080p would likely be a waste of money.


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## SteveCallas

Right, you definitely won't discern the difference in detail at 10' on a 50" - but again, I'd still get a brand new set as opposed to a used one. More HD inputs, better processing, better life expectancy.


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## eugovector

Right, I'd opt for the Samsung 450, a 720p panel which should save you a hundred or two. Bought my dad the A450 (replaced by the B) for last Christmas at $900 and have been very happy with it.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Wow, great article Marshall - thanks a million!

In addition, I came across this discussion thread on the 720-1080 topic. Here are a few teaser quotes:

_” I pretty much had the same experience in Best Buy... was set to buy a 1080P Panasonic rated #1 by Consumer Reports... UNTIL I saw the Pioneer 5080HD's picture side by side with the Panasonic's. Both were displaying feed from a Blu-Ray HD-DVD player. NO comparison far as I was concerned....Pioneer had the better picture by far...”

“Do not be overly concerned with contrast ratio numbers. They are not standard government numbers, but generated by each maker & subject to being abused or misrepresented. When the Pioneer just looks more impressive, that is what counts. 720 done extremely well can be nicer than average, so-so 1080.”_

Between this and the size/distance factor you guys brought up, I’m leaning real heavy towards that used high-end 720p Pioneer vs. the cheap 1080p Samsung. It's only a year old...

Regards,
Wayne


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## tonyvdb

Just keep in mind that most displays in stores are not calibrated and usually in "torch mode". A side by side comparison in that environment may not be the best way to judge them.


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## eugovector

No doubt that is true (in fact, Box stores should have to post disclaimers to that effect), but the pioneer should still outperform the Samsung in everything but resolution.

Would it be worth the extra $$ over a new 720p Samsung however? That question I can't answer.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Good point about in-store comparisons...

I think I'm going to go have a look at that Pioneer. What should I be looking for? With CRTs, I used to look for specific shades of green and red that I knew a poor-quality TV couldn't duplicate, natural-looking whites (i.e., pure-white looking, not with that pale blue hue), and natural-looking flesh tones in faces. I guess that's a good place to start with an HD set, too?

Regards,
Wayne


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## tonyvdb

Colors in general are a good start, I find most LCDs tend to be very harsh in that area (maybe its just me but our 32" LCD needs the "color" to be toned down from the factory setting in order for it to look natural).
Leonard made an interesting comment about Samsung and I would want to trust his opinion that there seems to be some issues with reliability with them lately.


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## BruZZi

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Between this and the size/distance factor you guys brought up, I’m leaning real heavy towards that used high-end 720p Pioneer vs. the cheap 1080p Samsung. It's only a year old...
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne



FYI: The Pioneer PDP-5070HD (7G) has a very poor black level. So if you like to watch TV in a very dim/totally dark room then this model isn't the best recommendation.

.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Yeah, I've seen that complaint at the AVS Forum threads. Kinda strange, considering C-Net rated the blacks as good. I think some have said it's less of a problem with the brightness levels dialed down (which is typically what I do anyway), and fortunately we don't typically view in a completely dark room. That's something I'll keep an eye out for, though - thanks...

Regards,
Wayne


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## BruZZi

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> I think some have said it's less of a problem with the brightness levels dialed down (which is typically what I do anyway), and fortunately we don't typically view in a completely dark room.



Ambient light (bias light is the best...) will increase black level perception. So it shouldn't be much a problem.

But current models have way better black levels.

For comparison...

Pioneer (7G): 0.040 fL (I think)
Pioneer (8G): 0.005 fL
Pioneer (9G): 0.001 fL

Panasonic (12G): 0.008 fL
Panasonic VX100 Models: 0.005 fL

Samsung "B" Plasmas: 0.012 fL


.


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## eugovector

Bruzzi: Good specs, where did you get those?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Wow, I have no idea what those numbers mean, but that is a huge difference! Could have sworn that I've been hearing for years that plasmas have the best black levels - did I imagine that, of has the bar been raised?

Regards,
Wayne


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## eugovector

Ft Lamberts = Measure of light output, basically measures how dark the screen is with a black signal so .040 fL is more "grey" than .012 fL.

Of course, with a poor contrast ratio, you'll be pumping up your brightness and you'll never hit the "black" that the set is capable of.

This is an important spec, but on it's own, only tells you that a set should be able to produce better blacks, not that it will.

That being said, that spec on the pioneer is disappointing, but I'd like to know the source.


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## BruZZi

eugovector said:


> Bruzzi: Good specs, where did you get those?


Ultimate Audio Video Mag is a great source:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/


There's a bunch more sources (including professional calibrator reports from forums like AVS).


.


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## eugovector

BruZZi said:


> Ultimate Audio Video Mag is a great source:
> 
> http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/
> 
> 
> There's a bunch more sources (including professional calibrator reports from forums like AVS).


I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I'm still not seeing the minimum brightness specs, even in the test portions of the review. Am I missing a list or database somewhere?


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## BruZZi

eugovector said:


> That being said, that spec on the pioneer is disappointing, but I'd like to know the source.


Measurements of the Pioneer PRO-940HD (7G):

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/207pio940/index4.html


Its peak contrast measured 1,568:1 with a white window (64.27 foot-Lamberts peak white/0.041fL video black) and 561:1 with full screen white (22.99fL/0.041fL)—

.


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## BruZZi

eugovector said:


> I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I'm still not seeing the minimum brightness specs, even in the test portions of the review. Am I missing a list or database somewhere?


Check out "Measurements." 

They don't post peak brightness / black level for all models reviewed.



*Pioneer Elite PRO-111FD (9G):*

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/808pio111/index7.html


Contrast & Resolution

Peak white level

* Full screen: 18.5fL
* 100 IRE window: 37.8fL

Black level: 0.001fL
Peak contrast ratio: 37,800:1



*Pioneer KURO PDP-5080HD (8G):*

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/907piokuro/index4.html


I measured a peak contrast ratio of 5,014:1 (40.11 foot-Lamberts peak white, 0.008fL video black) with a peak white window pattern.




*Panasonic TH-65VX100U :*

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/panasonic_th-65vx100u_plasma_monitor/index8.html

Peak white level

* 100 IRE window: 31.51ft-L
* Black level: 0.005ft-L

Peak contrast ratio: 6302:1




.


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## eugovector

Got it, so the performance of this set is inferred from others in the series. Probably a safe bet. And good to know that they test it with a variety of patterns to better get at real world performance.


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## BruZZi

eugovector said:


> Got it, so the performance of this set is inferred from others in the series. Probably a safe bet. And good to know that they test it with a variety of patterns to better get at real world performance.



There are always variations between models but they are basically close. One surprising exception (for black level) is the previous generation Panasonic Plasmas. On these models, black level measurements range from 0.014 fL to 0.009fL. I think it was D-Nice who posted that info somewhere at AVS Forum.

..


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## mrstampe

Hey Wayne,

It's been too long since the last Houston get together. We should do it again soon. 

I bought the Samsung PN50*A*550 -- not the PN50*B*550 -- about 18 months ago. It has outstanding warmth of colors, deep blacks and is plenty bright for my application (albeit a relatively dark room). The issue I've had with it over the past few months has been a cycling on-and-off problem and freezing up. There are spot reports of this across internet... maybe just a small subset of Samsungs, or maybe limited to A550s. My PN50A550 Thread All things considered, it's still one of the nicest 1080p flat screens I've seen near that price point.

Good luck with your search!


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## SteveCallas

Not to start a LCD vs plasma thing going on here, but in response to what you should look for, I would make sure you are satisfied with the vibrancy and whites of the picture. Blacks are very important, but so are pure whites without any dinginess. Also make sure you can't see your own reflection in the display under your normal lighting conditions - that would drive me nuts.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Yeah, I've seen the reflection thing mentioned, as well as first-hand in the stores (which are typically brightly lit). We're coming from a CRT with a glass screen - it won't be worse than that, will it? If not, we can live with it...

Regards,
Wayne


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

mrstampe said:


> Hey Wayne,
> 
> It's been too long since the last Houston get together. We should do it again soon.
> 
> I bought the Samsung PN50*A*550 -- not the PN50*B*550 -- about 18 months ago. It has outstanding warmth of colors, deep blacks and is plenty bright for my application (albeit a relatively dark room). The issue I've had with it over the past few months has been a cycling on-and-off problem and freezing up. There are spot reports of this across internet... maybe just a small subset of Samsungs, or maybe limited to A550s.


Hey Mark, nice to hear from you! And thanks for the comments - you've helped confirmed my usual reservations about going with a "price leader," no matter what the category: I'm usually worried about its long-term reliability compared to something mid-line or upper-mid-line.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I would actually recommend Sony's last generation SXRD RPTV's the KDS-A3000 Series. These displays were critically acclaimed and several ISF techs still use them for their personal display.

Almost perfect color decoding out of the box, 1080p/24, 120Hz processing, and much more. I absolutely love mine and the only thing I would replace it with is a 9G Kuro.
Cheers,
JJ


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