# Sick of small speakers!



## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

I've been using 5 Behringer B2031P speakers for my HT for the last year or so. Great speakers that measure well and sound/image well to boot. No complaints about them in general, but I've noticed that I simply don't have dynamics like a theater does--they lack that "jump" factor. My assumption is that they are simply running out of steam when compared to larger speakers.

I'm a miser. No 2 ways about it. I hate to part with my money, but I have decided to do so. So, I'm looking for some cheap towers that measure as well or better than the Behringers.
Here's what I've found:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/infinity-primus-360-loudspeaker-measurements (only the new version)
http://www.audioxpress.com/reviews/media/rich3244.pdf (these are on sale at several places for $200(ish)/ea)

Any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Dan


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The Infinity Primus's are fantastic values for the money. I greatly prefer them to the Behringers. If wanting more Power, the Active JBL Monitors that are available for 200 Dollars each are awesome and you would not have to worry about Amplifier or AVR Power with them.
Cheers,
JJ


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

That may be the JBL I'm currently using for my center speaker. Most pleased with it! Sounds clearer than the Behringer and has measurably flatter/smoother response and lower diffraction. I believe it has a baffle step issue around 600Hz, but nothing really to worry about. 









To go with my 3600 I bought an HK3490 to power the front mains, and I'll leave the rears powered by the 3600.
A guy that goes by "Tank, Tank" posted these on the 3490:


















Not as much detail as I'd like to see, but I think it should do the trick to power some speakers and take a load of the other receiver.

I just ordered 2 Primus 363 and 2 Classia 336. Couldn't wait.:dontknow:

They just looked like they'll do the trick with more dynamics than the Behringers d/t more drivers.
Now the question is, "should I go for 7.1?"

Thanks Jack!

Dan


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Dan,
Congrats amigo. You got yourself some excellent Speakers that will provide you with years of Sonic Bliss.
I really look forward to reading your findings.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2011)

If you cross your mains at 80hz, what advantage will foor speakers give? Unless I guess you run the fronts full range.

These are more efficient, so they will play louder using the same AVR. http://www.infinitysystems.com/home...LS&ser=PRI&Language=ENG&Region=USA&Country=US

Not sure what the "jump" factor is, but I've only seen horn tweets used in theaters, and horns create a kind of in your face sparkle sound. Klipsch delivers that, but the good ones are not cheap. My main complaint about them is, I like that sound for HT, but not for music, so for my taste, they are only useful for theater. If that is what your after, you might like them. They are a little more efficient then the Infinity's. Something like this should move you, but cost more. http://www.klipsch.com/rf-62-ii-floorstanding-speaker

These seem to be a little horn loaded. http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-NS-333...?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1311968970&sr=1-31

Not sure you could find a store that would have all of them to demo. Fry's maybe...


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Generic said:


> If you cross your mains at 80hz, what advantage will foor speakers give? Unless I guess you run the fronts full range.
> 
> These are more efficient, so they will play louder using the same AVR. http://www.infinitysystems.com/home...LS&ser=PRI&Language=ENG&Region=USA&Country=US
> 
> ...


Hello,
If your AVR has a Pure Direct Mode where the Crossover and all other Digital Processes are taken out of the loop, having Speakers that can play below 80hz makes a big difference. Moreover, while the Crossover is set at 80hz, it is not like a brick wall. Some of the Frequencies below 80hz will be reproduced.

Also, 80hz is fairly low when you think about it. With most little Satellite Speakers only capable of playback down to 150hz, 80hz is lower than you might presume. Also, should you not like the way your HT sounds when all speakers are crossed over to 80hz, having Speakers capable of going lower gives you added flexibility.
Cheers,
JJ


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Thanks Jack! I hope you are correct. I'll do my usual measurements and see how they compare.

Generic, by jump factor, I mean dynamics. The B2031P always seemed to lack dynamics when compared to larger speakers and I have no decent explanation why. It could just be my own visual bias e.g. small=small. Or it could be cone surface area or thermal capacity. It could be partly that large speakers are operating a little more like a line source... I just can't say, but it has always seemed that way to me. Don't get me wrong, I love the B2031P, they are excellent at their price point and good at any price point. I just want to see if bigger does equal a bigger sound. I used to own the predecessor Klipsch--the KG5.5, those could be painful on some material, but they definitely sounded big. Hopefully the newer version is more tamed.

The measurements on the speakers I bought look more like what I'm after.

Dan


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Having woofers near the floor also cooperates better with the boundary.

Dan


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> If your AVR has a Pure Direct Mode where the Crossover and all other Digital Processes are taken out of the loop, having Speakers that can play below 80hz makes a big difference. Moreover, while the Crossover is set at 80hz, it is not like a brick wall. Some of the Frequencies below 80hz will be reproduced.
> 
> Also, 80hz is fairly low when you think about it. With most little Satellite Speakers only capable of playback down to 150hz, 80hz is lower than you might presume. Also, should you not like the way your HT sounds when all speakers are crossed over to 80hz, having Speakers capable of going lower gives you added flexibility.
> ...


I thought the Behringer B2031P's were suppose to be pretty flat till 55hz, so even with roll-offs included starting at 80hz, they should be able to do the trick. 

They might be failing off axis if the room is too big, but I thought they had decent off axis measurements.

Not trying to dispute the OP, not liking them, but from some of the reviews I've read, I am a little surprised.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Dont blame you Dan. The Infinity 362s produced better spl than the wall-mounted 162s that replaced them in my theater. 

Youd really think that in a theater with decent dual subs spl performance on just the front left and right channels wouldnt be real noticeable, but it really is. Someday I might have a room big enough, and a budget flexible enough, to go back to towers on as many channels as possible, but until then Ill just have to settle for bookshelves...


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Generic said:


> I thought the Behringer B2031P's were suppose to be pretty flat till 55hz, so even with roll-offs included starting at 80hz, they should be able to do the trick.
> 
> They might be failing off axis if the room is too big, but I thought they had decent off axis measurements.
> 
> Not trying to dispute the OP, not liking them, but from some of the reviews I've read, I am a little surprised.


No, no, don't get me wrong.lddude: I think the B2031P are awesome speakers for their price/size. I'm quite sure I'm one of the big reasons why there is so much buzz around the web about thee things. I'm still happy with them, just want to move up to a full size speaker. Half the reason is that I'm sick of the floor bounce issue. Their off axis response is in the 'really good' territory after the cotton ball mod. Prior to then, they have issues. 

Just look under the "popular posts" section on my blog:
http://dtmblabber.blogspot.com/
B2031P topping the list.:boxer:
They get to 20Hz in my bedroom:








Won't let me post the graph for some reason!

Those are by all means great speakers and used to sell for a crazy cheap price. They are almost double what I got them for a year ago!

Dan


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Those Classia I just bought just returned to $860/ea. I got them for $250/ea. Guess I should have bought more. lol
Can't wait to measure them! Hope they do as well as the Primus. They had better for the cost difference.

Dan


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

Will be interested in your results - I have owned both, the Primus and Beta bookshelf speakers.


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Well, both measure great(primus/classia)! Both sound great. For some reason, I can't get any reflections on the second classia so I'm guessing something is wrong there. I tried it twice and got nothing. The impulse just won't look right, but the FR looks similar to the other one. Didn't try the others again--just not that important to me. They sound great and measure well. What more do you ant? 


















Note that the near field is by no means a great representation of the speaker's performance, but it does show polar performance where it's most difficult to get right--the treble.

If your interested, there's more on my blog, http://dtmblabber.blogspot.com/2011/08/infinity-classia-336bk.html

Dan


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Indeed. When I read the Stereophile Review of the Primus which included Bench Tests and it was amazing considering the price. And excellent for any speaker.
Cheers,
JJ


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks for the measurements


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

You are welcome Jim!

Jack, for HT or 2 channel music, I'm not sure anyone could do better than the Primus at anywhere near that price. The B2031P are nice, but in all honesty I'd say no match especially when you consider you have to buy stands. The Primus give you better dynamics, less diffraction/reflection issues, and a slimmer footprint.

I'm very pleased with them(and the Classia for that matter),

Dan


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I am so glad you are happy. I am a far bigger fan of the Primus's than the Behringers personally.
Cheers,
JJ


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

I concur. Shhh.  Unless you are doing near field work--then the b2031P would likely be better just d/t size. Too bad Primus are only available via web order now. No local place is distributing Infinity any more. Notice Infinity has also downsized their lines. I'm guessing the financial times have hit them hard and for no good reason. Their bargain offerings are as good as any if not better.

Dan


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## Altec Best (Oct 11, 2010)

Hey Dan I know what you mean those bookshelves just don't cut it for me either ! :bigsmile:


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Ha ha ha AB! I bet not.

You know with the price of stands, they really don't save you any money. 

Dan


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Dan, I have been lurking and I have to tell you I concur. I have been a monitor/subwoofer guy for many years.

I am sick of buying stands and tired of dealing with floor bounce nulls. 

I do love the imaging I get from monitors, but what a pain sometimes. Good thread. :clap:


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Wow! Thank you. I can't imagine ever going back now--and I couldn't really recommend it. The difference in dynamics is really amazing. I'm watching Blu-ray like crazy now, music and even NPR radio is more entertaining, and frankly I'm overjoyed with the purchase.

I also know what you mean about the imaging... Something I wasn't expecting and hadn't thought about. Everything seems to come with its compromise. This is one I'm willing to make.

Thanks Tesseract. Glad you like the thread. 

Dan


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## Mika75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Hi Dan, I know ur very good with measurements, so tell me, how did the room measure before compared to now?
From this recent experience have u found that dynamics aren't something that u can actually measure, but need to be experienced as above, subjectively?


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Well, dynamic ability can arguably be measured in a way and I bet I could do it if I spent the time to measure by means of compression and deviation from linear behavior. That's more than I want to do. 

I'll get some graphs up later I hope with the Infinity.

Here's my blog post with floor bounce and stand mount speaker/EZEQ room modifications:
http://dtmblabber.blogspot.com/2011/07/theater.html

More in there than I could quickly post.

Dan


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## Mika75 (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks, the blog tells all !


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## Altec Best (Oct 11, 2010)

I remember you telling me about my current project that you could hear them in Cali.So get ready to open your windows my dual 15" woofer project is getting close Oh Yeah !!! :hsd: :yay:


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Thanks Mika75! What would be absent no matter what is how things would change at different distances. The acoustic foam coffee table can help for one row of seating. A line of woofers should do better than that. With seating though, I'm not sure how well that would hold up.

None the less, I need to get some in room graphs up for the Infinity. I was going to throw them on the blog, but maybe this would be a good place as well.

All I can say is that it would be awfully hard for me to go back to bookshelf speakers even though my center channel still is. I love how the AVR sets my center to large with no low end filter--it a 5" 2-way JBL studio monitor. That little thing does go deep for such a small speaker. I manually put a 100Hz filter on it b/c I feel like it will bottom out on me if I don't during louder scenes. It audibly compressed during loud music passages where the Mackie HR624mk2 and Behringer B2031P were still going strong. Especially the Mackie. Those Mackie get LOUD for bookshelves. The JBL is a great little speaker, but it's not a big speaker. These Infinity towers hold up the best of them all at high dB. They are the best at that since my Klipsch KG5.5. Too bad those Klipsch sent me searching for a smoother/easier to listen to treble. That was well over a decade ago and this is my first tower since. These Infinity seem to be the sweet zone as far as compromises go for the money. I don't think they'll go as loud as easy as the Klipsch, but they still get as loud as I'll ever use in my HT.

Dan


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Altec Best said:


> I remember you telling me about my current project that you could hear them in Cali.So get ready to open your windows my dual 15" woofer project is getting close Oh Yeah !!! :hsd: :yay:



Awesome! You're making me jealous! I'll leave my windows open. 

Dan


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Some photos of these larger speakers:








Zoomed in a bit:









I'll likely get to measurements later. Most of that front wall is absorptive. I did leave the hallway open. ;^)

Dan


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