# Long term listening test / Floorstanding speakers



## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Greetings - I have decided it's time to have fun in the world of testing out products, and this time, it's going to be in floorstanding speakers. 

As of now, we have a pair of Klipsch LaScalas and a pair of Martin Logan Electromotion ESL Hybrid Electrostats, with a pair of Axiom M100's and a pair of M50's on order.

The Klipsch retail for $7000 per pair, and are quite the revealing loudspeaker. Those who have not heard a pair of Klipschorns or LaScalas are missing out on something special. 

Sam Tellig, famed audio critic, tested the LaScalas here: Sam likes him some LaScalas

The Martin Logans can be found here:  Martin Logan Electromotion ESL

The Axioms will be delivered at a later date, and we will start discussion at that point.

The first speaker "up" will be my spending several weeks listening to the Martin Logans in a simple two channel set up.

The front end is a Denon Universal player with a Marantz 7008 receiver. All processing is turned off. No subwoofer is being used. It's just a straight, two channel set up.

The reason I finally selected the Marantz is it delivers 148 WPC into 8 ohms and 216 WPC into 4 ohms, as measured by Sound and Vision here: Bench Test on Marantz 7008. 

In addition, the Marantz has preouts on all channels, and for later tests has full Audyssey XT-32 processing with sub eq which can independently eq two subwoofers. 

It also allows one to bypass Audyssey on the mains, should one wish to have a sub in one's system, properly eq'ed, but without processing in the Left/Right speakers.

All speakers being tested are being purchased by me, no manufacturers "giving" free product for evaluation. I have contacted several manufacturers, and am waiting on responses for other speakers to be added over the next few months. 

I will do the best I can to convey to relative "sound qualities" of each loudspeaker. More later, as some serious listening will start this week.

*Speakers by Brand and Model, including post numbers where one can find them:*

1. Martin Logan Electromotion ESL Hybrid's can be found in posts #4, 5 and 6
2. Axiom M50 can be found in posts #39, 40 and 41
3. Axiom M100 can be found in posts #43, 44 and 45
4. Legacy Audio Signature SE can be found in posts 46, 47 and 48

These notes will take place over the next 3 to 4 months, and the reason for the dedicated three pages per speaker is to allow an easy place for the summary notes on each speaker. There will also be the more frequent updates throughout the thread. Hopefully, this will work for both the occasional reader and the more avid forum members.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Subscribed.


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## Serenity Now (Mar 28, 2014)

Me too.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Martin Logan Electromotion ESL (ML) Page:

The Martin Logans arrived three weeks ago, and have been getting some "burn in" done on them since. Today, with the arrival of the Marantz 7008 receiver, is the first "serious" listening session. Until otherwise noted, each listening session will be with just the receiver. Later on, we will add a dedicated power amp.

*Roger Waters "In The Flesh" SACD*

This SACD has been a favorite test disc of mine for 11 years now. It's not the best sounding disc, but there is so much going on with it that I have found it a valuable tool for evaluating speakers. There are many tracks with background voices in them (particularly "The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking" and "Amused to Death"), and this is one of many of those tools. Compared to other speakers I have had here, the ML's are about average in terms of delineating these background voices. Average does not mean bad in this sense - it means that there were speakers which were more clear than the ML's, and others were less clear.

Macro Dynamics are less than average on the ML's with this disc set - "Money" and "Another Brick in the Wall" do not come across with a lot of impact, and these are two songs that are meant to rock, not soothe. 

On the up side, Micro Dynamics are average overall - the bells in "Time" are clear and never harsh. 

Soundstaging is deep - during "Perfect Sense", the voice of "Hal" from "2001: Space Oddity" starts REALLY deep - well behind the performers - and then projects out into the audience. He also moves nicely from left to right as he emerges. The projection out is not as strong as the depth, but overall it gives the goose bumps one expects. 

While the ML's were not a revelation with "In The Flesh", they overall are about average with my experience with this disc, and this IS a rock disc, not necessarily the typical music for which one purchases modestly price Electrostat hybrids.

Next up will be a disc from Diana Krall: "Live in Paris".

*Diana Krall Live in Paris*

We can start here - the ML's love jazz and orchestra. There is nothing that jumps out of one on this disc, but it does have a lot "going on" that makes it a fun listen. Krall's voice comes through the ML's with excellent clarity and a lot of that "you are there" quality. When her voice that that "appealing cracking", it's palpable. When she whispers, it's clearly audible. Instead of being a disc that jumps at you, Krall makes you want to lean into the performance, and the ML's do this quite nicely.

Stand up bass is rendered as I hear it from a love jazz band at our club ... it's fast, clean and makes you move your feet without thinking about it. I am used to this live, but most speakers don't present this well. By most, I mean speakers under $3000 per pair. The Klipsch LaScalas soar with this disc, even more so than do the ML's - but they are also $7000 per pair, and were once a class "A" Stereophile speaker (limited bass response).

The ML's strength in microdynamics REALLY shines here - the brushes by the drummer - the background noises of the audience. All that was missing was a single malt scotch and a cigar. 

The ML's have made this disc one I want to hear again - and one can't ask for much more from a speaker than that, especially for $2500. 

*Tony Bennett Unplugged Live:*

This disc starts off with drums, piano, stand up bass, and Tony crooning. The ML's immediately deliver to one both Tony's age ... and his incredible singing voice. Yes, you hear some crackle from him that wasn't there 35 years ago, but I challenge any singer to match how this man can still hit the notes he does in his 5th decade performing. The man was 68 when he made this disc ... impressive. 

The sound mix on this disc features Tony "front and center", and the ML's put him out front, right where he belongs. On "Fly Me To The Moon", Tony walks towards the back of the stage, and the ML's deliver this space wonderfully... then he comes forward again, and one can "see him move". 

"Speak Low" starts with a single person snapping fingers, and quickly goes to several, and it sounds like several distinct people snapping, with Tony's voice coming through like silk, the stand up bass crystal clear. With the ML's, one knows it's going to be a great show. You hear everything ... his draw of a breath, the air of the hall. 

"I Left My Heart In San Francisco" showcases his ability to hit the notes, and again, the ML's make a palpable statement about both how great he still is, and his age... then it goes directly into "Steppin Out With My Baby", and with the ML's, it's hard to sit still. These are a really fine speaker - one might expect Electrostats to be "dry", but these are not. They are musical, toe tapping treats. 

"Moonglow" with KD Lang showcases the ML's talents with male and female voices simultaneously - you can see them looking at each other smiling while singing (remember, this is an SACD, no picture) ... the ML's create this picture. 

The Diana Krall DVD and this SACD will definitely be required discs for all the speakers that are auditioned, and look for some comparisons and contrasts between the speakers with both these discs.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Bookmarked for more about Martin Logans


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Bookmarked for Martln Logan system pictures


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

The opening post of the thread has been updated - each speaker will have three posts dedicated: two for the "review portion" and one for pictures. 

The Martin Logans have been updated for new review content.

AND ... three manufacturers have expressed an interest in participating, look for news on this over the next few days.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

This looks like it will be a good read. I really shouldn't follow these evals because they always plant the upgraditis bug! Thanks for doing this Craig.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Nice read Craig, glad to see you back in the saddle. About 18 years ago, I had the opportunity to get a pair of KHorns from a guy in Miami for $250! I kick myself to this day for not getting them. Looking forward to reading about the LaScalas (betcha nut'n touches em  ).

PS: Welcome home!


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Jbrax and Tonto - Thanks for the nice posts. This is SO much fun, auditioning these speakers. The experience at Chase Home Theater, if nothing else, has made me appreciate even more what these companies go through to deliver a fine product for a fair price. Having seen so many "agenda oriented" GTG's and reviews (on other forums) in the past 5 years, it has become abundantly clear we need more real independent reviews ... the staff here does a wonderful job with them.

Hopefully, this thread - and possibly one on subwoofers starting later this year - will in some small way help continue making HTS into the go to place for honest assessments ... and real world discussions ... on a variety of products.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

^^^ +1


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## theskins (May 10, 2015)

^^^+2, looking forward to Craig's review on these


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Enjoying your postings, Craig. Keep them coming!


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

LC - Thank you!

We have added another speaker to the mix - a pair of Legacy Audio Signature SE's ... the pair I am getting is the Black Pearl premium finish, and sell for $7785 per pair. Standard finishes start at $6995 per pair. 

I had a pair of what was then Legacy's top of the line speaker, the Model 1, purchased in 1988. When I reached out to Bill Dudleston, president and founder of Legacy, he suggested the Signature SE as a great choice for a real high end speaker that was still affordable.

The Model 1's were my favorite speakers for 12 years, and getting a new set of Legacy speakers is pretty cool.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

More speakers added to the mix, this is getting better, and I know you have a pretty good set of ears on your head, Craig.

The ML EM-ESL is one of my favorite speakers for the money. Looking forward to the Legacy review. At the recent AXPONA show, I spent almost 1/2 hr. talking with Mr. Dudleston about his latest active/DSP Wavelet Processor wonder, the V loudspeaker. The man is passionate about sound.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ooh! This just got a little more interesting! As said above. Thank you! And subscribed!


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## Rijax (Jul 20, 2006)

Tonto said:


> Nice read Craig, glad to see you back in the saddle. About 18 years ago, I had the opportunity to get a pair of KHorns from a guy in Miami for $250! I kick myself to this day for not getting them. Looking forward to reading about the LaScalas (betcha nut'n touches em  ).
> 
> PS: Welcome home!


I was just thinking about this last night. The absolutely best sound I ever heard from a pair of speakers was at Craig's house. He had set up a pair of Klipsch speakers (I forget the model) in the driveway of his house pointed at the backyard patio. No walls, no ceiling, no obstructions. At one point in the evening I wandered over and stood about 15 or 20 in front of those speakers and was DAZZLED by what I was hearing. It was perfection.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

That effect is pretty cool. And the best part is it works will all speakers! Removing the room is the whole point of treatments. The best my KSF 8.5's have ever sounded was in my backyard, with my sub, playing 70's rock & roll.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Craig, it's good to have you back as a regular forum member.
Well you have never really been a regular member.
I remember finding your reviews the first day I became active on this type forum.
Nice that you pick up doing the same thing.
I hope the forray into the ID home theater marketplace had some fun moments.
Looking forward to reading more.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I will probably get skinned for this but I am going to do it anyway.

What's the appeal of Diana Krall?
I have tried sampling several albums and concerts...I just don't get it.


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## Rijax (Jul 20, 2006)

chashint said:


> I will probably get skinned for this but I am going to do it anyway.
> 
> What's the appeal of Diana Krall?
> I have tried sampling several albums and concerts...I just don't get it.


Well. we're talking about personal taste (opinion) here and there is no "should" or "oughta" or "gotta" when it comes to personal taste. Speaking only for myself.

Firstly, IMHO she is a really good jazz pianist. 

Secondly, we live in the era of the vocal "belter." Being a "good" vocalist is virtually measured by how loudly and high one can sing. Ms. Krall, bucks the trend and sings, again IMHO, with warmth and passion. Being an old guy, and a one time professional musician/vocalist, that is something I really appreciate. Her live version of Joni Mitchell's "A Case of You" destroys me. 

Thirdly, again being an old guy, she sings a lot of songs I learned to love as a child and others I learned to love as a young adult. 

Fourthly, I find her physical appearance to be easy on the eyes.

So, that's my side of the story. There is nothing wrong with you seeing things differently.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Chas - The Krall DVD is in the mix for my listening sessions because it's one of the better discs for revealing detail in a loudspeaker. Her whispers to the other guys, her "draw you in" style of singing instead of (as Rijax stated so well) the "belting" style of singing. The brushes on cymbals ... there is just so much going on. 

We also do a lot of the "belting" style - the Roger Waters SACD has that with the female vocals on a lot of tracks. 

I will probably even watch some difficult action movies in two channel, just to get a feel for how much "subwoofer" bass a speaker can deliver. The Legacy Signatures, each with dual 10 inch sealed subwoofers, and getting an honest 250 WPC from the ADA-1000 amp that will be part of the final system should be very good on deep bass .. and the M100's, with triple 6.5's and tuned to 35 (ish) Hz should also do quite well. The 6.5's each have an X-max of 12 mm, and added together, it's like having an 11 inch vented sub in each cabinet.

Other discs that will probably see some time are some AC/DC ... Randy Travis (his discs are remarkably well recorded) and some of the sampler discs people have brought to GTG's.

Legacy also shows some excellent test track discs on their site, so I will be asking about those.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

She is very easy on the eyes ;-)
I think it's probably just the genre that I don't prefer.


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## Rijax (Jul 20, 2006)

Perfectly understandable. There are a few genres of which I am not fond.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Guys - After a few more days of some casual listening to the Martin Logans, it hit me that it's time to get a solid set of music and movie discs to use consistently for each of the speakers being tested. The Roger Waters Disc, for example, is going to be replaced by a re-master disc of "The Wall". Here is the line up:

1. Pink Floyd's "The Wall" remastered. Some of the best effects, soundstaging and a most difficult disc to get everything right. Micro and Macro dynamics to challenge any speaker. It is superior in every way to the Waters disc, especially for evaluating a speaker. 
2. Michael Stanley "The Acoustic Shows" live in Tangiers. Michael Stanley, his acoustic guitar, a group of great musicians accompanying him with piano, stand up bass, Jennifer Lee female vocals ... a lot of wonderful music.
3. Steely Dan 2 Against Nature - Probably the best recording from Steely Dan, and a great test for deep / tuneful bass.
4. Masters of Acoustic Guitar: 14 tracks of varied performances from folk to modern classical to blues. As one reviewer of this disc noted, it's hard to believe one instrument could make so much sound. Live guitar is a real challenge for any speaker.
5. Earth Wind and Fire - various tracks. 
6. Dire Straits Making Movies 
7. London Symphony Mozart Classics DVD Audio 
8. Diana Krall Live in Paris

The Legacy Signature SE's and Axiom M100's/50's are scheduled to be here in 2-3 weeks. This will take some time to put together - lots of break in needed to be fair to all speakers - then starting a rotation of 4 sets of tower speakers. 

All the notes from the Martin Logans will eventually be swapped out for the 8 discs listed above (Krall will stay intact). 

More tracks will be added - some of the more difficult movie scenes. The Pod Race scene from Phantom menace and the fight scene from Open Range come to mind - to ask two channels to handle those scenes without a subwoofer will be a REAL workout.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

INteresting. I was just going through my Dire Straits resordings and ended up with a couple of tracks from that disc for evaluations.


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## chrisletts (Oct 16, 2014)

_"Secondly, we live in the era of the vocal "belter." Being a "good" vocalist is virtually measured by how loudly and high one can sing. Ms. Krall, bucks the trend and sings, again IMHO, with warmth and passion"
_

I thought it was my age showing that I regard many of the current 'good' artists as no more than 'belters'
I agree entirely there's nothing to match an artist who can sing meaningfully at moderate levels..


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## Rijax (Jul 20, 2006)

chrisletts said:


> _"Secondly, we live in the era of the vocal "belter." Being a "good" vocalist is virtually measured by how loudly and high one can sing. Ms. Krall, bucks the trend and sings, again IMHO, with warmth and passion"
> _
> 
> I thought it was my age showing that I regard many of the current 'good' artists as no more than 'belters'
> I agree entirely there's nothing to match an artist who can sing meaningfully at moderate levels..


It's good to not be the only one. :bigsmile: A big, cross the Atlantic, hand shake.:T


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

chashint said:


> What's the appeal of Diana Krall?
> I have tried sampling several albums and concerts...I just don't get it.
> 
> I think it's probably just the genre that I don't prefer.


Bingo. Answered your own question.
It's an issue of preference, much like this speaker "test". 

cheers,


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

ajinfla said:


> Bingo. Answered your own question.
> It's an issue of preference, much like this speaker "test".
> 
> cheers,


AJ ... Soundfield looks quite intriguing, and definitely a product line worth exploring. :T


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

craigsub said:


> AJ ... Soundfield looks quite intriguing, and definitely a product line worth exploring. :T


I prefer them 

In all seriousness, preferences vary, so there is no one size fits all, as can be seen in the various approaches in just the few you've selected. Not to mention aesthetics, which most won't admit, plays a _huge_ role in any choice. Of course, sound in room matters too, but as Harmans tests have shown, looks matter!

cheers


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Good morning - Based on emails from both companies, it appears that the Legacy Signature SE's, Axiom M100 and Axiom M50's will arrive here in mid June. 

As mentioned in the first post of this thread, the intention here is to do the best I can in describing the relative sound qualities of each speaker. The new discs I ordered came in, and for fun, I fired up "The Wall" on the Martin Logans. The one easily noticeable performance characteristic is the bass, while tuneful, is not subwoofer territory bass. 

They did a pretty solid job with imaging and soundstage - and this will be explored further against the other speakers.

This is not a preference test, with scoring. The main goal is to give a fairly objective assessment of audible differences, and ultimately, I would like to expand this to more speakers over the next few months. Cataloging these first four (five if you count the LaScalas) will be quite the task, but once this is done, adding additional speakers, one at a time, will be fairly simple.

I have reached out to some companies which make towers in the $1000ish per pair range, and would really like to get more of those here. 

For most of us, auditioning speakers is a difficult task - there just are not dealers near by with product. $1000 per pair should buy some good performance. 

If this thread can eventually help people to at least try a pair of speakers in his/her own home, based on the notes here, then it will be a good thing.


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## AU26 (Apr 12, 2014)

Thanks Craig.

Owning ML ESL for more then a year and still exploring. Paired it with SVS SB-1000 Sub to eliminate hard working by ML ESL bus. Found that ESL are ideal for any vocal performance. Without equalizer ML ESL sounded a bit shy at HF end. Cheers from Australia.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

AU - Good point on a subwoofer with the ML's ... We have a few around the house, and as this process unfolds, adding a subwoofer into the mix with some speakers will make sense. The ML's do a lot of things right, for sure - my only issue now is there are no other high end speakers in the room against which to compare them, but that will be remedied soon. "The Wall" has so many subtle cues - and the ML's did a solid job picking those up. This is one area which will get a lot of attention between all the speakers. 

I have not noticed in lack of highs in our system with the ML's - but it's possible our rooms are the difference there. 

Adding a sub will be easy with the Marantz - I would guess a crossover at 60 Hz would free the ML's from deep bass duties, and one can still have a relatively inexpensive 2 channel set up.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

craigsub said:


> AU - Good point on a subwoofer with the ML's ... We have a few around the house, and as this process unfolds, adding a subwoofer into the mix with some speakers will make sense. The ML's do a lot of things right, for sure - my only issue now is there are no other high end speakers in the room against which to compare them, but that will be remedied soon. "The Wall" has so many subtle cues - and the ML's did a solid job picking those up. This is one area which will get a lot of attention between all the speakers.


Agreed, The Wall is a test of about anything one can find in audio. In The Flesh has some of the greatest dynamics I have ever heard. My room is very quiet and I can easily move from low to mid 50's into the mid 90 db range by the end of the cut. That is very special. Spacial cues are in abundance as is the clarity of the recording. Well chosen.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Savjac - Our listening room is also quiet like that, well, at least when no one else is home making noise ... addle:

I got the chance to listen to The Wall from start to finish last night, and Steely Dan's 2 Against Nature the previous night, and both are stellar discs for speaker testing. Sunday is supposed to be 50 and rainy, a good day to try out the Acoustic Guitar disc - if it lives to its billing, I will get the info regarding where to purchase it.

The BIG news - The M100's and M50's shipped on Friday, and the Legacy Signature SE's ship Monday. By next weekend, we should have 5 really good tower speakers in the house.

I don't know how many people know this, but Bryston and Axiom have been collaborating on speakers for about 4 years now - maybe longer with the research phase. There was a new tweeter developed, new crossovers ... upgraded woofers ... etc ... 

A lot of the Axiom speakers have a sonic "twin" at Bryston. The Bryston line up has been getting rave reviews by Absolute Sound, Stereophile, Soundstage ... etc ... 

It will be interesting to "hear" how the Axiom products can stack up to the ML's, Legacy and LaScalas, and what, if any, effect this collaboration with Bryston has had with their speakers. 

And maybe, after a few months with these speakers, AJ would like to have some of his speakers added to the mix.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Thanks Craig, I am looking forward to your thoughts on other speakers as most of us cannot change out so easily, we depend on you to help us out. 
Now I have to go listen to the Steely Dan disc.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

The Axiom M50's and M100's arrived today. The M50's are first up, and are playing some Steely Dan now to loosen them up ... some serious listening will start Wednesday night. The Legacy Signature SE's should be here by week's end.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

*Axiom M50 Notes:*

The M50's arrived two days ago (along with the M100's, but as promised, the M50's are first up). They have about 20 hours on them, and tonight is the first round with *Diana Krall*. The M50's are a pleasant surprise. I was expecting a let down after 6 weeks of listening to the Martin Logans, and they are anything but a let down. 

Krall's voice is as seductive as ever, the stand up bass clear, guitar work sounds wonderful, and even the light cymbal work by the drummer is coming through naturally. Where most speakers in the $1000 range are lacking is dynamics, but the M50's will easily play louder, without strain, that I will ever want to listen. On the flip side, they also get "quiet" in the way a much more expensive speaker would. I can't say the M50's are "better" than the Martin Logans - but they are making for a similar experience on the Krall disc. 

Neither the Martin Logans nor the M50's deliver subwoofer bass, but both do 40 Hz well, and both a comparably tight and musical. It is only the first night of serious listening, but so far, these are some very fine speakers.

*Pink Floyd's "The Wall"*: The M50's continue to play above their size and price class on The Wall. Yes, they lack hitting the deepest bass notes, but they do still provide a nice floor with their 40 Hz extension. More importantly, they get so many things right with this disc. The subtle voices in the background come through as more easily heard than with other small towers we have had here in the $700-$2000 range. The infamous helicopter gives a pretty big chunk of that "it's landing here" feeling. 

When the "girlfriend" is touring the apartment, one gets the feeling that she is going to another room when she offers the bath, and then back into the room with you when she asks "are you feeling all right". This listening style test is now about 2 weeks old (since the arrival of all the speakers), with a final date being the US Thanksgiving weekend. There is a long ways to go, but so far, these M50's are a real find.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Axiom M50 Page 2


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Axiom M50 page 3


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Guys - Some updates:

1. The Axiom M50's have had sufficient burn in, with the first post about them being in post #39. The opening post of this thread has been updated to reflect the location for the Axiom M50's notes. 

2. The Legacy Signature SE's arrived yesterday, and will be in the basement theater this weekend, when I can get some help moving them.

3. Legacy also sent their "Sampler II" CD, which is loaded with great tracks. The opening track is from Amber Rubarth, called "Novocaine". It's an excellent recording with a lot of audio cues in it, plus her distinctive voice. This disc has 15 music tracks, two pink noise tracks (one out of phase), and 5 other "test tone" style tracks and is already proving to be a reference level disc.

Many thanks to Legacy for sending this, even if it is a standard they do when one purchases products.

I will try to get pics of the 4 main speakers over the weekend. The M50's will be getting a lot of attention this weekend, then the M100's will start their burn in Sunday at noon. 

After the M100's get a few days, the same treatment will apply to the Legacy speakers ... then look for some more comparative notes between them.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

*Axiom M100 notes*:

*Legacy Audio Test Disc*:

The first cut on this disc is from a singer with whom I was previously unaware. Her name is Amanda Rubarth, and the song is called Novocaine. It is a remarkable disc of her, her guitar, some violin, and subtle effects of footfalls, percussion on the guitar ... it is a tremendous disc. Amanda's voice is haunting (and this song has me ordering a couple of her CD's). My daughter, who has been in the performing arts for several years, including two years of opera training, stopped by the listening room, and she was quite impressed by both the song, and how good the speakers are. 

Her words: "Dad, you have had a lot of great sounding speakers, but with these, she sounds like she is here". 

The rest of the disc is also a treasure of deep bass funk, jazz and classical music, and the M100's made me want to listen to this disc several times, which I have. BUT ... keeping in mind this is a long term test, it was time for more music.

*Pink Floyd's The Wall*

As good as the Martin Logan ESL Hybrids and the Axiom M50's were on "The Wall", the M100's take this disc to a new level. The most remarkable aspect of the performance on The Wall was how well the M100's bring out all the subtle sonic cues from the background. I have heard this disc over a thousand times, and have never tired of it. There were voices in the background that I had never heard before (a side note on this ... the Legacy Signature SE's are in the bullpen, and I am looking forward to hearing what they do with The Wall). 

Bass is close to subwoofer ... and I mean LARGE subwoofer .. .deep. A subwoofer will add to the M100's, but as a full range speaker, they dig out the low stuff, with lots of slam. The Helicopter scene is "scary putting a smile on your face" good. The macrodynamic ability of the M100's is well beyond what one would expect, especially in a $2660 per pair speaker that can also delineate the subtle notes so well.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Notes for Axiom M100's


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Third page of notes for Axiom M100's


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

*Legacy Signature SE notes:*

*Legacy Audio Test Disc*

After 60 hours of burn in, the first song for testing was the same as it was with the Axiom M100's. After an initial listen with Legacy's, I did some back and forth between the Legacy speakers and the M100's for come comparisons.

Amanda Rubarth's voice was very clear, and her angst in singing Novocaine was quite clear. The guitar, violin and footfall effects were palpable, and the Signatures make for quite the musical speaker. Soundstage was a bit wider than with the M100's but not quite as deep. The percussive aspects of the Legacy's was very tight, and sounded natural. This is a great first listen for any speaker, and the Signature SE's made me want to get into more CD's ... 

*Pink Floyd's The Wall*

One of the first things one will notice on "The Wall" with the Signature SE's is how well they dig out all those subtle sonics of the disc. As with the M100's there were scores of times in which I found myself thinking "that's something I usually don't hear". The helicopter scene was delivered in a BIG way that most speakers just cannot do. On "Waiting for the Worms", vocals are lush, and the song brings out all the emotion the band intended. On "One of my turns", the Legacy's matched the M100's ability to mover her back and forth, left and right, as she is speaking. 

Bass is very good - deep and very tight. These are rated to 22 Hz, -3 dB, and they no doubt live up to this. The pair have quad 10 inch, long throw drivers in what would be a HUGE cabinet for sealed subs, and they get very close to subwoofer bass. Everything I have heard so far with the Legacy's is making these next 4 months to look like a lot of fun.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Page 2 of notes for Legacy Signature SE's


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Page 3 of notes for Legacy Signature SE's


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Hi all - it's time for an informal update. The first post in the thread has been updated to show the three pages set aside for each speaker pair, as a summary is done.

All four speakers have now arrived - plus the original Klipsch LaScala II's. We now have in ascending order by price: 

1. Axiom M50's @ $998 per pair direct from Axiom
2. Martin Logan Electromotion ESL Hybrids @ $2498 per pair from Authorized Martin Logan Dealers. They are also pretty easy to find on line if you don't have a local dealer - both One Call and Audio Advisor carry the Martin Logan line.
3. Axiom M100's @ $2660 per pair direct from Axiom. 
4. Legacy Audio Signature SE's @ $6995 per pair, with the option of ordering directly from Legacy or from select dealers across the USA and Canada.
5. Klipsch LaScala II's @ $7000 per pair available both factory direct or from Select dealers across the USA and Canada. One Call is also an authorized Klipsch dealer.

Our Martin Logans came from Audio Advisor, while the LaScala II's came from One Call. Thanks to both companies for superb service.

The Axiom M100's have spent the last 50 hours burning in, and we did some listening today. My daughter is studying music theater at the university level, with 2 years of opera training. She stopped by today and spent about an hour listening to various vocals and other tracks of unamplified music. 

She was very impressed with the Axioms - for someone with her training to comment that the "performers sound like they are here singing" is quite the compliment for a speaker. The M100's are in that "high end" speaker arena in which one hears detail one usually misses with other speakers. 

I am definitely looking forward to spending time with them - especially with a weather forecast of rain the next 2 nights.

The Legacy Signatures are standing by - and looking fantastic in the high gloss black pearl finish.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Am I missing something? I'm not able to view any of the notes. I'm viewing on my iPhone but am also able to see the full browser version.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Jbrax - the notes will be updated as the listening tests proceed. Right now, the Martin Logans have had about 20 nights of listening ... the Axiom M50's 2 nights, and we are just getting started on the M100's.

We are 2 months into a 6 month ... or longer ... process. Instead of listening for a few months and posting everything at once, we decided to do this "live".


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

craigsub said:


> Jbrax - the notes will be updated as the listening tests proceed. Right now, the Martin Logans have had about 20 nights of listening ... the Axiom M50's 2 nights, and we are just getting started on the M100's. We are 2 months into a 6 month ... or longer ... process. Instead of listening for a few months and posting everything at once, we decided to do this "live".


 Ah, I see. Looking forward to following your thread and thanks for doing it. Do you plan on keeping any of the speakers.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Jeff - I am definitely keeping the Klipsch LaScalas, the Axiom M50's, the Axiom M100's and will probably keep the Legacy Signature SE's. I say probably because they have not been hooked up yet.

The M50's are a $1000 small tower that plays a lot bigger than its size and price would indicate.

The LaScalas are perfect for our upstairs theater.

The M100's are possibly even more detailed and nuanced than the LaScalas, and are a true high end speakers - they will end up in our family room with the VP-180 center channel and the M50's

The Legacy Signature SE's, assuming they perform well, will be in our basement high end two channel system.

And the Martin Logans? My son has his eyes on those. 

This fall, I am also planning on a subwoofer version of this test, with an Axiom EP800 already here, and would love to compare them to a pair of SVS SB-13 Ultras in a good listening environment. 

Our three rooms are as follows ...

Basement high end room ... 44 x 14 feet. Very quiet room, great for two channel. Legacy speakers are planned here. 

Upstairs Theater room ... 25 x 24 feet. Started life as a two car garage, now is a second "family room" - a light controlled theater room. This is the LaScala room, and where a subwoofer test would be done. 

Family room ... 27 x 24 feet. The hardest room to "drive". Lots of glass, open areas to other rooms ... etc ... the M100's will live here.

None of the speakers are manufacturer's loan. All were paid for as all of us "normal customer" types have to do.


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## AU26 (Apr 12, 2014)

Same here.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Ok If you let me move in, I will cook and clean for the next 6 months as long as you dont have more than 3 cars. Deal ??


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## Fatcat (Aug 17, 2008)

Hey Craig,

So happy to have (and read) you doing a new long term speaker, and potential subwoofer, review. It's easy to tell that you are having fun doing this and the format is a nice change of pace from the usual short term, typically stuffy online review. Thanks for taking the time, and the expense, to do this and I'm looking forward to reading the rest of your listening notes as they get posted. I haven't had a chance to hear any of these speakers yet myself so it'll be interesting reading for sure. 
Years ago, when I lived in California, Legacy Audio had a multi-city tour going on of their complete speaker line at the time. I attended the Pasadena showing where they had pairs of all their speakers set up in an auditorium and attendants could ask to hear different models play. The various pairs were switched via some sort of switchbox so people could make on the fly comparisons. I remember coming away underwhelmed by the whole thing because nothing sounded great to me. But it always bugged me that none of the speakers were really set up, I believe, to show off their true potential. As such, I'm really curious to hear your take on the Legacys. 

All the best....Carlo.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Jack - I would not torture you by letting you move into the man cave, but you will be welcome to visit. We will be having a GTG this fall.

Carlo - You are going to attend the GTG and get to hear them for yourself. The Legacy Signature SE's sure are one good looking loudspeaker! 

And yes, this is fun. :sn:


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

The Axiom M50 and M100 notes have been updated. The M100's have completed the break in period, and the Legacy Signature SE's will be moved into the system for break in over the weekend. 

Once this is done, the speakers will start the rotation over the next few months. As always, thank you for participating.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Craig, it might be a good idea to put links to the individual eval posts in the first post so people can navigate to them easier.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Jim - I have this on the bottom of the first post, which allows for three posts of notes/pictures per speaker. I was going to do a link to a post, but it would only bring up one individual post if done this way. Hope this makes sense. 



> Speakers by Brand and Model, including post numbers where one can find them:
> 
> 1. Martin Logan Electromotion ESL Hybrid's can be found in posts #4, 5 and 6
> 2. Axiom M50 can be found in posts #39, 40 and 41
> ...


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

craigsub said:


> Jim - I have this on the bottom of the first post, which allows for three posts of notes/pictures per speaker. I was going to do a link to a post, but it would only bring up one individual post if done this way. Hope this makes sense.


Since all of them aren't consecutive posts I can see where it might be confusing for some folks. Given that, you would probably have to add a link to each of those posts for people to easily follow.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Guys - The Legacy Signatures have been burning in Since Thursday night. I did some light listening today, and some fairly quick comparisons to the M100's. Both speakers have that "large, powerful, deep" speaker sound, and it's going to be fun doing some comparisons between the two.

Over the next few days, we will be getting some pictures of all four speakers lined up, so you know we really have them here, and then some comparative listening will be done between different models.

All four speakers are good, accurate reproducers of sound, with the M50's being the biggest surprise of the bunch.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Here are the four speaker pairs lined up ... working from the middle to the outside, we have the $998 Axiom M50's, the $2499 Martin Logan Electromotion ESL Hybrids, the $2660 Axiom M100's and the $6995 Legacy Signature SE's:


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## Fatcat (Aug 17, 2008)

That is a very pretty assortment of boxes you have there. Is the M 100's grill divided into three sections or am I imagining that?

Best....Carlo.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Carlo - it's in three pieces, and magnetic. It looks "old school cool" in person ... there is a hint of 70's era JBL in the M100's. 

The Legacy Signatures and M100's are in the system now, and some comparative listening will be done over the next 2 weeks, then the Martin Logans and M50's will be swapped in.

This is, of course, when I am not working or golfing. It is summer. :bigsmile:


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Thanks to Legacy's test disc, level matching was pretty easy between the Signature SE's and the M100's. The Signature SE's are actually 2 dB more "efficient" than are the M100's, even though both are rated at 88 dB / one watt / one meter (more accurately 2.83 Volts), and both are 4 ohm speakers.

Soundstage measured the M100's at 87.5 dB, so the Legacy Signature SE's are a bit higher than rated.

Neither is a difficult speaker to drive - the Marantz receiver on its own plays either much louder than I can stand listening to, no worries there. The Marantz also changes volume in 0.5 dB increments, so level matching is easy. I can now swap between speakers in about 30 seconds. 

Give it a few days, and I will try to have some comparison notes between them. For now, both are such good speakers, and a step up from everything I have had here but the LaScalas, in terms of clarity.


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## AU26 (Apr 12, 2014)

It's summer and wrong timing to test anything apart from golf and surf.
Winter time (like it is here now) is right time to do any kind of testing: wine, cheese, speakers,..... and so on.

Happy sunny summer time.

Cheers from Australia


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

AU26 ... This was actually part of the plan. By the time this process is done, it will Autumn here. At that time, a new thread will be opened, and all the pertinent information on each speaker will be compiled in this thread in an easy to read format.

This will be about the time people north of the equator are thinking about being inside all winter.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Can you add a second picture of the speakers naked? :waiting:


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Blacklightning - I will try to get some more pictures done over the next week. 

I also noticed that the forum will not allow editing of posts once they pass one month old. This will make it impossible to do the write ups as originally planned, but that's not that big of an issue. When we get to October, which will happen sooner than I care to think, a new thread will be opened with copy/pastes of all the details as posted here.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

craigsub said:


> I also noticed that the forum will not allow editing of posts once they pass one month old.


Yea, that's been a problem for as long as I've been a member. Wish they would change it.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Savjac said:


> Ok If you let me move in, I will cook and clean for the next 6 months as long as you dont have more than 3 cars. Deal ??


I want Craig to adopt me so I can live there and play with all the toys all the time.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Charlie - This is a lot of fun, but my kids would tell you it's too much work here. lddude:

I finally got some notes up about the Legacy Signature SE's, too. 

Tonight I did some back and forth between the Legacy's and the Axiom M100's. While both are excellent speakers, there are some differences between them that would definitely bring "preference" into play.

On several tracks - from Amanda Rubarth, Michael Stanley "live and unplugged", Pink Floyd and Dire Straits. One trait between the two is starting to take shape ... The Legacy's sound is more "in the studio" while the M100's sound is more "live on stage". With the Legacy's, it's easier to pick the sounds as coming from the speakers, while the Axioms tend to disappear more and give that "wall of sound" of a live performance. On the other hand, the Legacy's tend to be a little more articulate in the mids - just as a studio performance would sound versus a stage performance. 

As of tonight, both speakers have about 80 hours of break in. It will be interesting to continue to explore these differences as the speakers get to the 200 hour mark for break in.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Good morning - It's time for another update. Over the last few days, a lot of listening has been done between the Legacy's and the Axiom M100's. 

The music tracks involved have been quite the variety from the Legacy Disc, Uriah Heep Live (1973 - a really cool disc), Diana Krall Live from Paris DVD, Michael Stanley Live From Tangiers CD: link, Pink Floyd's "The Wall" (of course), Steely Dan's 2 Against Nature and Aja and a compilation of Mozart. 

Both the M100's and the Signature SE's make for some excellent listening. This trait mentioned earlier of the M100's sounding more like the performers were on stage while the Legacy's sound more like the recording studio has become more than a possible trait - it's something even casual listeners are noticing.

In 1988, I purchased the Legacy Model 1's from Bill Dudleston. Back then, when a call was made to Legacy, Bill answered the phone. He was genuinely excited about his loudspeakers, selling them direct to the consumer. He offered an in home trial period LONG before other companies thought of this.

Moving 27 years into the future, when emailing Legacy, Bill answered, and we had a terrific conversation. He had a passion for music, and for making accurate speakers in 1988 and he still does. 

The Signature SE's remind me a lot of the Infinity IRS Sigmas (a $10,000 per pair speaker 15 years ago), but with the ability to handle macrodynamics much better than the IRS did. The IRS Sigmas had a hard time with making music that "rocked the house" even with a McIntosh MA-6900 powering them. The Signature SE's will play louder than I can stand even with the Marantz receiver.

Bass is deep and tight, vocals are crystal clear, and imaging is precise. Every instrument comes through the Legacy's sounding like the instrument should. 

In contrast to the Signature SE's, the Axioms give up a little in how clear the vocals are, and the bass is not quite as deep. The Axioms DO deliver a wider and deeper soundstage - and bring this whole experience of "listening to the performance on stage" to life.

For example, on the "playground scene" from The WALL ... where the guy is threatening no pudding if one does not eat one's meat, the Axioms place the children in the background outside the side walls (there is a joke in there somewhere), where the Legacy's have the children coming from the speakers.

On Amanda Rubarth's Novocaine, each lyric is amazingly clear on the Legacy's, while the Axioms require more of one's attention. The Axioms have more depth and width of sound stage, which again extended outside the speakers. 

The Michael Stanley Live at Tangiers disc has become a standard bearer over the last couple of weeks, and both speaker pairs were "doing their thing" while switching back and forth. 

The Legacy's were intimate, making one want a scotch and a cigar. The Axioms were "live", making one want to give a dirty look to the moron three rows back thinking it was ok to fire up a joint. 

Both speakers can handle pretty much anything you throw at them, and there will be more details coming after more listening sessions. The next experiment is going to be blocking a port or three on the Axioms to see what effect this has in the bass department.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

This might sound surprising coming from the techie guy that I am, but I really enjoy the descriptions of the FEELING you get when listening to the different speakers. Ultimately that is what we listen for, not to objectify the sound. 

But you can keep the cigar, pass me the scotch, and well, let the guy in the back light up, because I am listening to the Axioms...we were impressed when we evaluated them. The did have that magic that lets you get lost in the performance.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

LC - The tech side is what makes the magic side happen. And speaking of your tech side, we are working on something special here: I am getting a quote to build for me a customer switcher which will work at the pre-amp level.

What will happen is there will be a 4 channel amp receiving dual stereo signals from the switcher ... A and B for speaker pair one and C and D for speaker pair 2. 

AB and CD will each have its own volume on the back of the switcher. This would allow us to switch back and forth with level matched output from each speaker pair.

Add into this a screen made of speaker cloth that the speakers are behind, and we will be able to do some excellent blind tests here.


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## AU26 (Apr 12, 2014)

Uriah Heep Live 1973, oh it was long time ago. I think it was Garry Thain (I think) bass section that was very pleasant part of it. Don't remember when was last time that I heard of Uriah Heep.

Cheers from Australia.


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

Ok....Here's my question...Are the La Scala's in house yet?!!!! I'm saying this because your several of your selections are pretty high sensitivity models (the Legacy's and the Axioms). I can't wait for your impressions on them.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

The LaScalas have been here since August, 2014. They are in a different room - on the main level of the house. Sometime this fall, if there is interest, I could lug the M100's up to this room to do some comparisons between the two speakers directly. 

The LaScalas are an incredibly capable speaker, except for bass. They really need a subwoofer. That caveat aside, they are detailed, musical, and present a huge soundstage.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

It's time for a quick update - The last few days have been really hectic. My "day job" is working finance in the auto industry, and the end of the month is crazy, thus the lack of posts. 

Saturday was a rainy mess here, so I took the time to dial in an Axiom EP-800 subwoofer with the Legacy's and M100's. After playing around, a crossover of 60 Hz was set for both speakers.

The effect is remarkable - one thing I noticed about the EP-800 is how easy it is to integrate into a music system. 

By removing the bass below 60 Hz (and keeping in mind, this crossover means both the subwoofer and speakers are down 3 dB at 60 Hz, with a 12 dB per octave roll off - not a brick wall) from the main speakers and the amp section of the Marantz, the improvement in soundstage is noticeable, as is detail in every respect.

The bass quality in the EP-800 is the best I have heard, and this includes some very fine subwoofer systems from JL Audio, Velodyne and a host of ID companies, including our own. There will be more on this later, as more listening is done. 

For now - either the Legacy's (and I am sure Bill's subwoofers would have a similar effect) or the Axiom's combined with the EP-800 enter into "super speaker" territory in terms of delivering the goods.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Good morning all - It has been an incredibly busy week since the last update. The busy has been mostly business related with some bad golf thrown into the mix.

There has been little time for listening, but the listening sessions are still confirming that these are two remarkable loudspeaker systems. The level of detail is astonishing on both, as is that rare "musicality" that we all seek. 

This is the first time in years that I have had speakers that make me want to get out old discs and order new ones. They both remind me why I loved stereo sound for so long.

The "BIG" news is ... the switcher has been ordered. Before long, we will be able to do blind tests with remote control operated switching. Level matching will be done at the pre-amp level. 

I don't think any magazine outside Soundstage has this ability. This fall and winter will see a lot more done, as indoor season lends itself to this.

We will be adding two more pairs of speakers to testing in the fall - starting in October. If anyone has a suggestion .. or even wants to start a new thread with a poll, feel free. 

I would also love to have a small GTG style weekend with maybe 3 listeners to do some serious blind A/B testing. If there is enough interest, we could do 3 or 4 of these from November to April.


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## Fatcat (Aug 17, 2008)

Oh yeah, I'm in!


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

A quick update: I have received the pre amp level switch box. It's a pretty simple hook up. The system will be using 4 channels of an Axiom ADA-1000-5 amplifier. The box will allow for level matching, and instant A/B switching.

In regards to the four pairs of loudspeakers here, all are incredibly capable speakers, with the Axiom M100 impressing the most in terms of being as good a speaker from 32 Hz and up as I have heard. It compares favorably with the Legacy's, B&W Diamond 803's, Infinity IRS-Sigmas, Klipsch LaScala II ... and does so for less than half the price of any of those speakers.

As we move into fall, this whole test will be revisited, but under blind conditions.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

What switcher are you using?


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

The switcher was custom built for me, using the same parts that Bryston and Axiom (plus some other companies) are using at their respective facilities. I got the opportunity to use one at Axiom in both April and last week, and did so doing some blind tests. The NRC in Canada has long championed this type of blind listening. 

What was fascinating about the methodology for the tests I did was I had no idea what speakers were being auditioned. The speakers were set up, level matched, and I went into the listening room alone. No one else was in the room. No one could clue me into which speakers I was listening to. 

The results - notes and all - had to be turned in before the speakers were revealed. 

This unit is compact enough that it would be "doable" for me to bring it and the Axiom amp to a GTG to do such a test ... or we could use any amp as long as we have 4 identical channels.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

craigsub said:


> The results - notes and all - had to be turned in before the speakers were revealed.


That's the way to do it IMO. Did you pass??????? I have an inexpensive switch with individual volume controls that I'm planning to use for some less sophisticated speaker and amp A/B tests... when I have time. I'm curious to see the results of yours.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Peter Loeser said:


> That's the way to do it IMO. Did you pass??????? I have an inexpensive switch with individual volume controls that I'm planning to use for some less sophisticated speaker and amp A/B tests... when I have time. I'm curious to see the results of yours.


I don't know if one would say I passed ... but here were the general results ...

Test "A" ended up being two different bookshelf speakers, both with a small subwoofer assisting in bass. I did two separate sessions, and had no idea I was hearing the same set of speakers in first the ABAB and then in the BABA positions, which was done to ensure the position in the room was not the determining factor.

I found bass to be comparable with both set ups and with each listening session, and preferred the same speaker each time. 

Test "B" was a similar test, but with larger stand mounted speakers and no subwoofer. I again had the same preference for one pair of speakers in both listening sessions.

My results were also very consistent with 5 other listeners who had done the identical tests on days I was not even there.

That is the "thing" about a true blind test - you listen VERY carefully, and report on what you hear. It's intimidating. Think about it ... what if one ends up preferring a pair of Bose 301's to a pair of PSB Imagine B stand mount monitors? 

Back to the switcher - it's essentially two passive pre-amps in one enclosure. We can even do a blind test between two different subwoofers on the same main speakers. 

Based on some conversations with people, we may do a direct blind AB with the EP-800 and a pair of SB-13 Ultras from SVS. Just to make it even more fun, the mains could be the Martin Logan ESL's - I am looking forward to spending some time with the ML's, the Axiom amp, and crossing at 60 Hz to a good subwoofer.

It's highly likely this will elevate the ML's into an even more impressive performer.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

craigsub said:


> I don't know if one would say I passed ... but here were the general results ...
> 
> Test "A" ended up being two different bookshelf speakers, both with a small subwoofer assisting in bass. I did two separate sessions, and had no idea I was hearing the same set of speakers in first the ABAB and then in the BABA positions, which was done to ensure the position in the room was not the determining factor.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you were very consistent. I would have been intimidated too.

The Axiom/SVS comparison will be fun. Both are outstanding subs.


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