# Do you recommend 2 surge power strips?



## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

Is on surge protector power strip adequate? Or should I have one for AVR, BDP, & TV with a second one for subwoofers?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I would use two but if they are just the junky $20 ones then they really do not have any use at all.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Line Tony said, it really depends on the quality of the SP. I use one downstairs for my living room set up, but it is an APC S15 which can handle everything. In my HT, the sub is quite a distance away so I have one for it. I also have one for my PJ for the same reason.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

I agree with the above advice.

I recently added a Furman strip, the PST-8D, at about $90, because it includes sections with power noise isolation between analog and primarily digital gear. I had an elevated noise floor that was resolved with the Furman strip - my noise floor was improved by 10 dB (measured). _In some cases,_ that can be an additional benefit.

Bear in mind that there are few (meaning NO) universal solutions in this business/hobby, where a certain piece of gear automatically makes everything sound and work better. You have to look at specific problems and needs and determine what best fits/fills them.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

mjcmt said:


> Is on surge protector power strip adequate? Or should I have one for AVR, BDP, & TV with a second one for subwoofers?


I guess I would have to ask, "Do you want protection, noise filtering, or both? Some devices allow you to isolate different types of gear (say, digital from analog) and even incoming signals (like cable or antenna). I would advise against protection devices at the cheapest end of the scale. Some of these have been known to "lift" grounds, which can be unsafe! Staying with a name-brand should be a great help.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

I have a 5 yr old monster power hts1000 surge/filter strip. Plugged into it is a Yamaha a740 AVR, Yamaha bds677 player, Martin Logan Dymamo 300 sub, and Sony Bravio 46" LCD TV.
Should I separate the electronics with 2 separate surge/filter strips?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

To all the previous advice I would only add: follow the total power rating of the strip.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

mjcmt said:


> Should I separate the electronics with 2 separate surge/filter strips?


I wouldn't hurt. As long as its a decent one. I would have the receiver on one and the rest on the second.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> I wouldn't hurt. As long as its a decent one. I would have the receiver on one and the rest on the second.


Agree with the wise Tony. That potentially gives extra isolation to the more sensitive piece of equipment.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

Sounds good. Would you gentlemen recommend a power filter or filter w/ surge protection for the AVR? What's a good cheap one?

Is this too cheap?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...power strip&qid=1457139237&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

That's a decent one, noise filtering is always a plus.


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## witchdoctor (Feb 21, 2016)

mjcmt said:


> Sounds good. Would you gentlemen recommend a power filter or filter w/ surge protection for the AVR? What's a good cheap one?
> 
> Is this too cheap?
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...power strip&qid=1457139237&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1


Yes that is too cheap if you want better SQ. Try this one for 30 days, if you don't like it send it back. You can select with or without surge protection. This strip is ALL about SQ:

http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Double-Helix-MK1i-Power-Conditioning-Strip/productinfo/PSMK1I-ST/

If possible plug everything into this strip. If not use this one for your equipment and a different one for your subs.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I'm sorry but I've got to draw the line here, are you serious?!!
Don't even waste your time on that. Seriously, why recommend that when there is no proof that it makes an ounce of difference in the sound and does not even offer true protection and they recommend a breakin period??? :nono:


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

Wow... $240 for a power strip. I'm in the wrong business. I've been trying to sell beach-front property in Phoenix all this time.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I love the line "Every component connected to our Strip will unleash new-found clarity and realism as layers of AC grunge are peeled away" yikes 

The thing that really concerns me is the wire looks to be less than 16awg and that alone would be a caution for me. Any high draw device like a receiver or amp would need a much thicker awg


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

witchdoctor said:


> Yes that is too cheap if you want better SQ. Try this one for 30 days, if you don't like it send it back. You can select with or without surge protection. This strip is ALL about SQ:
> 
> http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Double-Helix-MK1i-Power-Conditioning-Strip/productinfo/PSMK1I-ST/
> 
> If possible plug everything into this strip. If not use this one for your equipment and a different one for your subs.


That costs more than I paid for my Yamaha bluray/sacd player, so I'll pass.
Is it an upgrade option to get the corroded copper plug on it.


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## witchdoctor (Feb 21, 2016)

tonyvdb said:


> I'm sorry but I've got to draw the line here, are you serious?!!
> Don't even waste your time on that. Seriously, why recommend that when there is no proof that it makes an ounce of difference in the sound and does not even offer true protection and they recommend a breakin period??? :nono:


I think actually auditioning the component in your own system is the only way to prove anything. I look forward to your post after you auditioned it. Otherwise you really don't have any idea how this would help or not other than making up stuff you _imagine_ would be true.


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## witchdoctor (Feb 21, 2016)

mjcmt said:


> That costs more than I paid for my Yamaha bluray/sacd player, so I'll pass.
> Is it an upgrade option to get the corroded copper plug on it.


Well I don't know your budget so can't comment. But comparing a power conditioner and blueray player are apples and oranges. Power impacts every component in your system. If your _system_
costs for example $3K and this power conditioner provided a 10% improvement in SQ it is a good investment. It would have nothing to do with how much your blue ray player costs alone.


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## witchdoctor (Feb 21, 2016)

DqMcClain said:


> Wow... $240 for a power strip. I'm in the wrong business. I've been trying to sell beach-front property in Phoenix all this time.


I don't think this is the right forum to sell property, try craigslist.


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## witchdoctor (Feb 21, 2016)

tonyvdb said:


> I love the line "Every component connected to our Strip will unleash new-found clarity and realism as layers of AC grunge are peeled away" yikes
> 
> The thing that really concerns me is the wire looks to be less than 16awg and that alone would be a caution for me. Any high draw device like a receiver or amp would need a much thicker awg


The thing that concerns me is that people are biased. You need to audition.


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## witchdoctor (Feb 21, 2016)

mjcmt said:


> That costs more than I paid for my Yamaha bluray/sacd player, so I'll pass.
> Is it an upgrade option to get the corroded copper plug on it.


BTW, I saw the picture of your big TV and speakers. I think you should audition it, it would be worth it for your TV alone.


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## witchdoctor (Feb 21, 2016)

DqMcClain said:


> Wow... $240 for a power strip. I'm in the wrong business. I've been trying to sell beach-front property in Phoenix all this time.


You have Crown amps and a PJ? I would try and budget enough to audition this power strip. Remember, no like no pay, just send it back.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

witchdoctor said:


> Well I don't know your budget so can't comment. But comparing a power conditioner and blueray player are apples and oranges. Power impacts every component in your system. If your _system_
> costs for example $3K and this power conditioner provided a 10% improvement in SQ it is a good investment. It would have nothing to do with how much your blue ray player costs alone.


It's unlikely I spend $240 for a power strip, when my money could be better spent proportioned elsewhere. 
My system costs thus far are:
yamaha avr $320 new refurbished
yamaha bdp $200 new refurbished
def tech passive soundbar $250 used
martin logan subwoofer $140 new
sony 46" lcd tv (6 yr old)
I'd say $50-100 tops for a power strip


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I like APC, personally but Wayne's experience with furman makes me think you'd be happy with it in your system. Look at Panamax too. I wouldn't get too carried away though. I buy expensive shoes because they make me run faster. Oh wait...


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## witchdoctor (Feb 21, 2016)

mjcmt said:


> It's unlikely I spend $240 for a power strip, when my money could be better spent proportioned elsewhere.
> My system costs thus far are:
> yamaha avr $320 new refurbished
> yamaha bdp $200 new refurbished
> ...


In this context I agree. I use a Monster Power Strip in my desktop system that was better than a standard surge protector. Here is an example of a similar one:

http://www.amazon.com/Monster-PRO-9...qid=1457239668&sr=8-15&keywords=monster+power

or
http://www.amazon.com/Monster-PRO-8...&qid=1457240016&sr=1-2&keywords=monster+power

Furman is also pretty good:

http://www.amazon.com/Furman-Series..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=08S1HQT8AXNWCMZ8H53H

Both of these strips are selling at nice discounts and have tons of customer reviews to help with your research.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

witchdoctor said:


> You have Crown amps and a PJ? I would try and budget enough to audition this power strip. Remember, no like no pay, just send it back.


I think where we're disconnecting here is that they're charging an obscene amount of money for a product made of parts that are commonly available. OFC wire goes for about $0.40/foot for 12AWG, 2 conductor. They're claiming that adding a 25% faster rate of twist increases the efficiency of the shielding effect? Great. I'll strip my power cables' jackets and over-twist them myself. Fancy-pants insulation to decrease "dielectric absorption"? They're claiming to affect the incomplete discharge of energy stored in the jacketing of an AC line after that line is de-energized... and that it will produce a noticeable improvement in my sound quality. 

I'll keep my $240.


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## witchdoctor (Feb 21, 2016)

DqMcClain said:


> I think where we're disconnecting here is that they're charging an obscene amount of money for a product made of parts that are commonly available. OFC wire goes for about $0.40/foot for 12AWG, 2 conductor. They're claiming that adding a 25% faster rate of twist increases the efficiency of the shielding effect? Great. I'll strip my power cables' jackets and over-twist them myself. Fancy-pants insulation to decrease "dielectric absorption"? They're claiming to affect the incomplete discharge of energy stored in the jacketing of an AC line after that line is de-energized... and that it will produce a noticeable improvement in my sound quality.
> 
> I'll keep my $240.


I think you made your mind up before you even tested the component. You have no way of equating the value without an audition in your own system, period. You have no idea how your own mods would sound let alone a component you have never auditioned. You are hanging on to your money like it is a victory but IMO listening to high quality components with low quality power is a loss. Not even taking a risk free audition makes it an absolute loss because you have no other way to equate the value. No like no pay= no harm done right?. No try=no clue, get it?

If you think $240 is obscene you obviously haven't listened to many similar components costing 10 x more like this one
http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...nditioner/a-secrets-power-conditioner-review/

As for your engineering expertise do you even know who the owner of Mapleshade is so you can talk and compare notes before you decide what his tech is about? Try googling Pierre Sprey and call him at his recording studio about how he makes his products before you start posting misinformation here please.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Please read our posting rules very carefully. It is perfectly OK to differ and to argue a point, but let's be clear that we do not allow personal attacks nor vendor bashing, and some comments here are pushing that limit. We are here to post in a collaborative and friendly manner to share experience and understanding. One is always welcomed to his/her own opinion and relating personal experience is fine. We should not confuse opinion and personal experience with facts, however.

Show a little more humility and sensitivity for the views of others. Make your point, state your evidence and experience, but don't confuse what you believe with facts, and don't assume that what you believe is useful to others.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

*To recap* I like the idea of *2* separate surge protectors. I'm thinking one for the AVR and BluRay player. While the other for subwoofer, TV, and powered (wall wart) HDTV antenna for over-the-air HD broadcasts.

This model is popular w/ the computer/office community. Are two of these adequate for HT? And does it offer emi/rf filtering?
http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Is...&sr=1-30&keywords=tripp+lite+surge+suppressor

Or are two of these a better choice? Does it offer surge protection?
http://www.amazon.com/Furman-SS6B-P...sr=1-1-spell&keywords=fruman+surge+suppressor


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

In the price range your looking at either will work about the same. I personally like Triplite products but Furman makes great stuff also.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

lcaillo said:


> Please read our posting rules very carefully. It is perfectly OK to differ and to argue a point, but let's be clear that we do not allow personal attacks nor vendor bashing, and some comments here are pushing that limit. We are here to post in a collaborative and friendly manner to share experience and understanding. One is always welcomed to his/her own opinion and relating personal experience is fine. We should not confuse opinion and personal experience with facts, however.
> 
> Show a little more humility and sensitivity for the views of others. Make your point, state your evidence and experience, but don't confuse what you believe with facts, and don't assume that what you believe is useful to others.


I apologize for flirting with the wrong side of this policy. 

All of the points I chose to debate are taken directly from product descriptions published on the vendor's website. I chose to debate those claims based on research of the principles on which they are based, i.e. skin effect, dielectric absorption, twist rate, etc. I realize that the tone of my assertions is far too casual. 

So, with that in mind, I shall illustrate my concerns with their claims below. 
*Skin Effect* - this is the tendency of AC currents in solid conductors to flow near the surface of that conductor as a result of magnetic eddy currents. Essentially, a solid wire becomes a tube and the efficiency of the conductor is reduced. This effect is frequency and resistance dependent. Higher frequency results in stronger skin effect, as does higher resistance. In copper at 60Hz, the skin depth (the cross-sectional area in which the skin effect occurs) can be shown to be about 8.5mm. That is to say that a conductor would have to be more than 17mm in diameter before the skin effect starts to produce a "hole" in the middle of the wire. #0000 wire is 11.684mm, for reference. In essence, for every commercially available copper conductor being used for AC transmission, the Skin Effect is zero. 

*Twist Rate* - Twist rates are specified in multi-pair cables for a number of reasons. The short version is that if multiple pairs of conductors have identical twist rates (or pitch), it follows that two discreet conductors will be adjacent repeatedly. It is then possible for cross-talk between those two conductors, which is not introduced into their balanced pair. In this case, the common mode rejection is negated because noise is not introduced equally into both conductors in a single pair. As a result of this phenomenon, multi-pair cabling often specifies differing twist rates for individual pairs. Any two conductors may end up adjacent one another, but not repeatedly thus reducing the possibility of cross-talk skirting around the common mode noise rejection of differential amplification. Commonly practiced methods of AC filtering already address this issue. 

Another issue with twist rate is the possibility of interaction between the twist rate and the frequency of the signal being transmitted. At high frequencies, it is not impossible for a twist rate to exist in such a fashion that it can interact with an integral multiple or fraction of a 1/4 wavelength of the frequency in question. The result can be variations in impedances, odd reflections, and resonances along the cable. Altering or varying the twist rate can reduce this effect. In AC transmission of 60Hz, the wavelength in question is around 5000km (499654.3m in a vacuum). The effect of a minor change in pitch over a length describable in tens or hundreds of feet is negligible. 

*Dielectric absorption* - In capacitors, this is the tendency of a dielectric material to not completely discharge when briefly discharged after being charged for extended periods. Basically, the dielectric material absorbs and retains some energy. Depending on the material, the amount absorbed can be 1% -15%. In the case of capacitors, this can result in odd behavior in circuitry or in extreme cases electric shock when handling individual components. 

In the case of AC transmission, the air space between the conductors and the permittivity of said airspace are key factors in the capacitance of the lines along with the specific material used for insulation. Given that a power cable is typically constructed of several individual conductors which are insulated and an outer jacket, atmospheric conditions are at the very least constant. The thickness of the insulation and its composition then become the variables that are in play when considering the cable's capacitance. Thicker insulation equates to less capacitance, as capacitance is proportional to the surface area of the two conductors, and inversely with the distance separating them. As insulation thickness increases, the effective surface are decreases as the distance between conductors increases. 

Dielectric absorption is proportional to capacitance. The smaller the capacitance, the less residual charge there will be left in the capacitive load. 

Incidentally, increasing the twist rate of the cable will increase the amount of surface area proximity, and decrease the space between conductors... thereby increasing capacitance as illustrated above. 

Those are the major selling points of the AC cables listed on the website in question. Each of these effects is real, but for situations far outside of the application in question, which is transmission of power over short distances. I also take issue with the "30 Day Money Back" period. When taken in conjunction with the break-in period of 50-100 or 150-300 hours (depending on the product in question), it is entirely feasible for the break-in period to extend past the 30-day return window. If one attempts to break these cables in using the prescribed method (music only, preferably with strong transients) and they spend 4 hours a day, 7 days a week doing so, the break-in period takes 37.5 days. 

If you want to clean up your power, start first with methods recommended many times over by several of this community's more prominent members: proper grounding, proper cable routing, and proper power load distribution. 

Since that last point speaks directly to the question asked by the OP, I'd say 2 separate power strips can't hurt, especially if you separate computer-controlled devices (AVRs, DVD/Blu-Ray, PCs, media players, signal processors, etc) from largely electrical devices (power amps). No sense in having a power amp trip a breaker and take down the rest of the system if it can be avoided for a little extra effort.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

witchdoctor said:


> I think you made your mind up before you even tested the component. You have no way of equating the value without an audition in your own system, period. You have no idea how your own mods would sound let alone a component you have never auditioned. You are hanging on to your money like it is a victory but IMO listening to high quality components with low quality power is a loss. Not even taking a risk free audition makes it an absolute loss because you have no other way to equate the value. No like no pay= no harm done right?. No try=no clue, get it?
> 
> If you think $240 is obscene you obviously haven't listened to many similar components costing 10 x more like this one
> http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/...nditioner/a-secrets-power-conditioner-review/
> ...


Yes, I did. I made up my mind based on the literature available on the website and my own estimation of the veracity of those claims based on researching the claims themselves. I've decided that the asking price is far past the worth of the parts and labor required to assemble them. Have I listened to components costing 10x that price? Nope. I also do not consider the exotic price to be reasonable, regardless of the materials an construction techniques involved. My approach to this hobby is really very simple: buy the cheapest gear worth owning. To that end, I build my own stuff as often as possible, and research to death anything I purchase. Turns out, I'm very happy with my system the way it is, and the upgrades I have planned follow the same philosophy. I expect them to yield similarly satisfactory results for money I'm happy to spend... money I'll have because I didn't drop it on a piece of equipment I feel has no value for my system.

As a sidenote: Witchdoctor linked the Furman M8x power conditioner... I've lost count of how many of those I own. Every time I move gear around and reconfigure things, another spare seems to turn up. They're solid, reliable, and cheap. Highly worth the investment.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

DqMcClain. Well done as usual. 


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