# 2-3 year finsh Line Array



## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Ok so after looking at countless threads of all different speakers and then settling on just buying something. But after the local Klipsch cinema dealer told me the price INCLUDING shipping I wanted to cry.

SO I started to rethink other builds. And after seeing what the costs will be I figured I will just very slowly buy all the parts for my ULTIMATE end all speaker builds for me. 

I love to watch others build on DIY speakers but only want to build one more time and then just be happy and not want to upgrade. SO after seeing what my little LA can do from BFM I have decided to just build another monster line array. I am going to also play around with my SLA I have already and see what more I can do with it.

After chatting to Thylantyr a lot lately I am really excited about building a line array like his/louder. He has given me lots of advice on what I can do and what not to do that I feel I am becoming a burden asking him millions of questions.

So for now I will just start my own thread and hopefully others can help me from here. 

I will be using these for the highs:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-735
I think Thylantyr suggested 16 per cabinet but I will worry about that later.

I do want to know what software should I use to model these drivers?

I know PE has a sale on some Sony 5 1/4 speakers for about $1 each but I tried to model them in Win Pro but didn't have the Sd so I couldn't. .......OK they are no longer available anymore.

Well either way I know finding a buyout driver will be the cheapest part. But trying to model with out the Sd I am not sure how. I will have to see what size driver I can get away with but Thylantyr has told me that I should try and use the 4" drivers so the planars dont have to go so low. But then there are always a few other 4-8" drivers that can play higher so its just a matter of finding something and modeling it. PLUS I wont be spending more than about $20 per midrange driver.

So with the Planar and midrange driver I was thinking about just a 2 way design but after finding some other 15' for not too much money I was thinking also of maybe a four column 2 channel array. I can get four 15's for about $600 or four 12's for about 600. I would use four or five speakers per side. But I am not even sure the 15's I know of can do anything down low.(Clones from Sanway) The 12's I know of can.(Bob crites)

So for now what do I use to model?


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

Get Passive Crossover Designer 7 and the Response Modeller intended to go with it.

I have no experience with line arrays but I've dabbled in multiple conventional DIY fullrange projects.

Usually you can get a decent approximation on Sd from the dimensions of the speaker. For example: often the outter edge of the surround lands just outside the cutout diameter. So, guess a width on the surround, subtract that from the cutout, and then compute an Sd. It'll be in the same ballpark for any given size of driver, anyways. You'll see that slightly changing Sd doesn't have a massive impact on how the speaker models. Guessing Sd is probably less worse than the wide variation of parameters between published and actual values from some driver manufacturers.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Wow......it will take me quite some time to get my head around that one. I will try and see what I can do.

I did use Win Pro for some 6.5" drivers I saw and it did work for that. I could just try and model a few different ones and see how it goes and then try the 3.0 excel software.

Can anyone tell me if 10 of these in 20cuft will do much down low? I was thinking a 35hz tune or something and see how low they can go. But we are just talking about little pro drivers and 5mm xmax.

Resonance Frequency	Fs	42	Hz
DC Resistance	Re	5	Ohm
Mechanical Factor	Qms	5.9	
Electrical Factor	Qes	0.26	
Total Factor	Qts	0.25	
BL Factor	BL	22.1	T-m
Effective Moving Mass	Mms	80	g
Equivalent Cas Air Load	Vas 164	dm3
Effective Piston Area	Sd	855	cm²
Max. Linear Excursion	Xmax	5	mm
Voice-coil Inductance @ 1KHz	Le1K	1.3	mH
Half Space Efficiency	Eff	4.5	%
That is a 15" clone. I think there must be a spec wrong or something because there is zero curve to the excursion response. Either that or I messed up which is probably the case. I looked at the 18" clone and the same thing happens with the excursion.

Here's the 18:
Resonance Frequency	Fs	30	Hz
DC Resistance	Re	5.3	Ohm
Mechanical Factor	Qms	8.8	
Electrical Factor	Qes	0.25	
Total Factor	Qts	0.24	
BL Factor	BL	26	T-m
Effective Moving Mass	Mms	170	g
Equivalent Cas Air Load	Vas 297	dm3
Effective Piston Area	Sd	1134	cm²
Max. Linear Excursion	Xmax	8	mm
Voice-coil Inductance @ 1KHz	Le1K	2.1	mH
Half Space Efficiency	Eff	3.1	%

Either way I was happy to find a few drivers that were not going to be EXTREMELY expensive to buy for me in OZ. The 18 seemed to look quite nice in the sim but something must be wrong. 20cuft for eight 18's and just looking at the lowest tune while staying in spec of Xmax.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

Have you applied running power in the signal tab of WinISD? As long as all of the info in the electro-mechanical parameters section of the driver editor are filled in, it should be able to simulate excursion and all of the other things.

Either of those drivers have very low Qts, meaning they will only work well vented. If you are set on 20cuft that's fine, just decide a range of cab sizes that will work then start modelling however many drivers in that enclosure... The first one you list has a pretty high Fs of 42Hz, a rule of thumb can be to not tune below Fs unless you have a hefty HPF in place to protect over-excursion. An HPF is often needed anyways though.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Yah so far it looks like I should just save the money and get quality drivers instead of clones. I know that the four 18's would be fine but after looking at what 8 of the AE TD15X/H's can do I think I just need to slowly buy those. PLUS I could use them in a 3 way design and be very happy without a sub.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

I might suggest saving you $$ until you have enough saved up to buy the whole thing at once. Seems like a lot of people have accumulated stuff over the years that either gets used, or doesn't. Having a clear cut set budget will also help the planning and design process, which I'm guessing is a while out?


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

The budget varies. I would buy a bunch of drivers from AE now but I still have to wait for my 21" subs to come. When thats done I will then be back to buying drivers again.

The midrange drivers are easy to look for because there are so many out there that are good. The highs I will really need to save for. They will cost more than my subs. AND when I plan for a budget it never really seems to stick with that.

PLUS with PE always having buyout sales and group buys its hard to figure budget at times. I wont be buying all at one though. I would slowly just buy four of this, four of that 50 of those. 

SO I understand what you are saying but it just never goes that way at most times. PLUS passing deals up sucks. Like the AE group buy.:doh:

And 2-3 years might be slightly off. I say that because that is when I will be starting my dedicated HT room also. BUT knowing me I will do whatever I can to finish the LA's before then and have a listen.

And if I do go with the BG Neo3 or the Beyma TPL-150 or other I will slowly be buying them and listening to them as I get them.

And I will be trying to maximize my current LA to get its max potential. Which means another power amp sim's and maybe a ported box if I can find the T/S for the speakers.


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## studiotech (Apr 27, 2009)

Whoa there dude. You gotta slow down and take a breath. You are all over the map with these possible plans. AE woofers down to PE buyouts? From a Neo3 all the way up to a Beyma TPL-150? I've used both and both are excellent, but different beasts for sure. Take your time, learn as much as possible before you jump into some serious $$$ committed in drivers. Lots of people around to help out, but get a good foundation for speaker theory and design first before you try a design, cool?


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

AE speakers are if I DO decide to do the 3 way. I have been playing with a few different ideas and one using the Dayton PT2, BG Neo3PDR, Fountek Neo Pro5i or the Beyma TPL. That being said it is just a matter of picking one. And its also a matter of if I want a 3 way or 2 way.

I know the Dayton will be awesome but seeing that it just cost $25 and now is $75 I am not sure if I want to stick with such an overpriced planar. I have seen many amazing designs that I think I would be happy with but they are very expensive. My ideas are cheap in comparison.

Fountek NeoPro5i x16 = $4800
Seas Revelator 7" x8 = $3760 before any discounts for both of them








But this is going to be out of my price range. Unless the title is 4-5 year project.

But that is what I would want in a more budget friendly kind of way.

Now the TPL I have never heard before and really dont know anything about it. It seems like it would be a monster in a LA but will have to wait on such things like that. PLUS they are by far the most expensive "tweeter," I have looked at. Even the Raal that I was looking at was cheaper. I know Raal makes some very expensive stuff but I was not looking at those.

So the PT2 looks like the obvious choice for the money but its just a bit irritating knowing that they were 25 not that long ago.addle:


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## looneybomber (Sep 20, 2006)

The Neopro5i is a fine tweeter, but the NeoCd2 is less than half the price. You could trim the top and bottom of the mounting flange to decrease the CTC spacing between the tweeters. Use a drill press to create new screw holes for mounting the tweeter.

When looking at woofers, those with truncated frames can be mounted closer together, reducing the CTC spacing, enabling them to be used with a higher crossover point. Peerless has some HDS mids with truncated frames (6.5" and 5.25") that may work well. Dayton has some too (5" and 6").

If you are planning on adding woofers (4 on each side), get in on the AE speaker buy while the prices are cheap. You have two days, and the TD15H's would work well in a ported box tuned to 25-30hz. They also work in sealed boxes, but going with the TD15S would be better.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Yah so far I have been just thinking of going with either the BG Neo3pdr or the Dayton PT2. I am leaning towards the BG.

I have been trying to sim quite a few different midranges anywhere from the Goldwood's to the PHL's. Will just have to wait and see how things go. Dont want to get to carried away with the midrange but the Revelators are definitely out of budget.

I hate to see it pass but I wont be able to get in on the AE group buy.:crying: I would love to but I am just finishing off my HTPC?media center and have two subs are there way that I still have to finish paying off. Sucks but oh well.

Things might change when I stop finishing up all these projects but soon they will be done and I will be back to collecting parts again. 

I figure I will buy a few BG's and mids to see how they sound and then just go from there. Whatever I like to my ear is what I will buy more of. Specs are one thing but I need to stop reading so many reviews and specs and just try a few and see what I think of them.


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## looneybomber (Sep 20, 2006)

Considering the number of drivers you'd have to buy, purchasing a few to listen to and later resell isn't going to break the bank. Purchasing 32 mids and tweeters (or however many) and finding out they don't sound good would be sucky.

I did that when wanting to build some 3-ways around the TD15h. I found out I like the neopro5i, but did not go through with the build. If you have deep pockets and think you might want to use high-end ribbons, I'll sell you mine slightly used...But unless you're considering spending a few grand on tweeters, don't buy it. It's like test driving a porsche when you can only afford a kia.

As for woofers/mids, check out the dayton offerings, although I will tell you I bought 12 RS-180's and I had a problem with 4 of them making mechanical noises, with a 5th making a slight intermittent noise. It's something I am still working on with PE.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

I have no idea which tweeter I will go with. If the Dayton PT2 was the normal $25 price I would buy enough to do all 5/7 channels. Not sure how many channels I will go with for now.

But I know I am going to try at least the Beyma TPL150, and maybe the Fountek. The Beyma I might be able to hear without having to buy one also. Either way I will try at least the Beyma and go from there. Might try the BG's also but I have a feeling if I hear the Beyma's first I wont want to hear anything else.

WIll just have to start depositing pay checks to Beyma. LOL

What cabinet size did you go with for your 15H looneybomber?


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Just saw your post on the AE group buy.
_That depends on the frequency response you want and how much room you have for enclosures. If you don't have a lot of room, go with the H; 6-6.5cuft and a 32-30hz tune._

I think after looking at a few quick volume calculators that I might be able to go around 5cuft per speaker. But maybe I should just try a higher tune as in 35hz.?

We'll see. I have a few other ideas but I think I will just stick with the AE stuff. I wish I could get in on the group buy but maybe John will have another one when I am ready to buy a few TD's from him.

I am just going to build once and thats it. I already know I will be building something that will be a monster in my HT room and will definitely take up most of the viewing wall. Which goes with my wall of sound approach.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

When looking at the AE TD18H it would appear that with a smaller box and the same tune the 18H is a monster compared to the 15X. The 18H extends lower and above 45hz it is no contest.

How close does a CTC spacing need to be for 400hz or even 500hz?

I guess that number would tell me how close the drivers need to be and that would tell me how many and what size I can go with. Seems like more 15's would be better but that would only be for a more seemless sound. Although a few 18's would be more than enough volume wise I wonder if there would be a huge gap sound wise?

Then again most of the time, if not all the time I would be sitting 10ft away at least from the speaker so I am not sure this would even be a problem.

Ok so 400hz is .85meters or roughly 33.5". SO is half wavelength ok for CTC spacing?


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## looneybomber (Sep 20, 2006)

Ya if you want to try the 5i, I can save you money from not having to buy new, but if you're trying the TPL150, there's not much of a need to get the 5i for reasons other than money savings. I've never heard the tpl150, but I assume it's awesome (look at that distortion graph!). Once I am done with my degree and have time to revisit my 3way lambda build, I want to also pick up a RAAL 140 and compare it to the 5i to see which one I want to use...oh and buy another pair of TD woofers since I sold mine.

I planned on using my TD15h's in the enclosure size you quoted me in, but I never made _that_ enclosure for them. I had a sealed 4ft box sitting around that I put one in and love it. Sure the bottom end wasn't there like I'd have in a 50% larger enclosure tuned to the low 30's, but the midbass and midrange was very nice.

Half wavelength CTC spacing or less is perfect. You won't notice any lobing.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

We'll see how things go for me here. I am just finishing my HTPC and the new subs should be here in a month or so. Then I have to start having small amounts of money go to the piggy bank.

I saw that Raal and they looked very nice also. I cant try to many tweeters because with the TPL150 it just gets too expensive. But after simulating the B&C 6MD38, I think, this might be the driver I will be using. I looked at the PHL1120 and that posted better simulations but only by a 1-2db at max. Most of the time the BC was right there in every area. PLUS for the money savings I could get a few more BC's and they are the same SPL wise.

BUT for now I am just sticking with 8 drivers for the mids.

And half wavelength CTC spacing makes 18H's doable.:hsd: :dumbcrazy:

The tweeters are the hardest part. Everything else seems easy to decide on with the help of Win Pro. Hopefully around Xmas I will be able to hear a TPL and BC together. It would only be a single one togther but then I can see if I want to order the other 100.:rofl:

Thylantyr has been a big help and with his knowledge and many many links I think I should have my ultimate last speaker build last me a very long time.

I forgot if John mentioned what the Apollo upgrade would cost? I think he mentioned on the 6" but dont remember if it was the same for the 18H.


Here is my inspiration:








and of coarse I have always liked the way this looks.









I was going to be using the DCX but wondered if it would be best to upgrade the DCX or use something else. I had been looking at a few things like the Ashley8800 but thats not going to happen at that crazy price. There is the EV DC ONE but I would need more than one for 5 or 7 channels.


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## looneybomber (Sep 20, 2006)

Picking the mids seems easy because you can model them with WinISD in various enclosures, but how do you know how they sound? That's one of the things Thy hits on - sure they graph/model nice, but your ears are the final judge.

I think Penngray on AVS tried both the PHL1120 and B&C 6MD38. I know he ended up using the 5i and 1120 along with a TD12s for his 3-way build. Depending on qty pricing, I'd look at the TD6's w/o the apollo upgrade. Now that the groupbuy is over, the upgrade is $100/speaker plus an additional $10-20 for the TD6 and TD18 since they use different motors than the TD 10,12,15. In a home line array, the apollo upgrade wouldn't make sense unless you won the lottery.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

looneybomber said:


> Picking the mids seems easy because you can model them with WinISD in various enclosures, but how do you know how they sound? That's one of the things Thy hits on - sure they graph/model nice, but your ears are the final judge.


That's very true. Stuff like backwaves off the cone reflecting back through the speaker cone is a thing modelling leaves out, for example. To my limited experience, I'd say plan on having the midrange chambers mostly or fully filled with quality absorption material.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

I intend on buying enough parts in the beginning to just make a 3way design. Then if I like everything I will just expand from there. The TD6 was nice but I dont know if I am going to be able to go and try them out. They are more expensive then the rest of the speakers I was going to try. I would probably try the revelator also if I bought the TD6.

BUT I really liked what I could do with the BC and price wise it seemed perfect. Not too crazy in price considering I will need 16. PLUS when figuring everything out if I went with the PHL1120 or TD6 it would just take me a lot longer to complete.

That being said I will hope the Beyma and BC sound great together then I wont NEED to try the PHL or AE TD6.

I just hope that there will be another group buy in the future. Maybe a year or so from now. Would definitely help things on the budget side.

And for me I would love to get the apollo upgrade on the bigger drivers but without it I would be fine. I only thought of the Apollo upgrade just for longevity. Thats the only reason I would get it. And I dont have to worry about that yet so I look more into in the future.


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## aceinc (Oct 24, 2006)

Based on my limited understanding, building a 3 way and attempting to extropolate to a line array may cause you to over spend. The reason I say that is because I believe that in addition to the nearfield experience you get with full line arrays, you also get a substantial reduction in distortion due to requiring each driver to carry less of the load and work well within their comfort zone. This is one reason why people get good results with cheap speakers.

For choosing drivers you may wish to visit http://www.zaphaudio.com/ and look at his driver tests, choose the driver(s) that have the lowest distortion, meet your other criteria and fit within your budget.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

I have been slowly looking at different midranges and just simulate all the ones that I think would be suitable. SO far the B&C 6md38 is a monster and exactly what I want. I had compared it to the PHl series and a few other higher end ones and for me I dont get any thing more for price with the other drivers.

Now when it came to just simulations it was hard to find something that beat out the B&C midrange. I found a few that could outdo the BC but also cost a lot more. That being said I could just add more BC mids and equal the SPL of the more expensive PHL and other and actually save myself money sticking with the BC.

Now the highs will be the toughest challenge. I have really wanted to test the Beyma TPL150 but not sure I can wait long enough to actually have 8 of them per L/R. PLUS the price.......wow. SO I figure I will buy the BC's for the mid and will buy one of the TPL's and a few of the BG Neo3PDR's for testing. I will mainly be doing some listening tests.

I in the end might have to go with the BG's because of the price mainly. I would love to do the Beyma but just looking at price I am not sure I can. But I will wait till I hear it. Once I hear it I can make a decision.

BUT I have a feeling I will like the Beyma. If thats the case I will just build a 4 ribbon design for left and right. Then when I eventually save up enough I will finish the LA.

Next year is the plan to at least start buying parts. For now its just simulate and sim some more.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

And after further review.....Zaphaudio suggests the BG Neo3 is a good choice.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

When simulating a woofer what excursion should you limit the driver to if it also needs to play up to 350hz?

I know I would not want the same driver playing 20hz while trying to play upper frequencies so I wondered would a Hpas at the woofers Xmax down low be fine or is there something else I am missing.

Still have a few months to go before I can buy some components but think I will be using some clones for the bass drivers. They are cheap and will hold me off until I can afford some AE's. Although with a bunch of them I might be happy and just call it a day.

BG's are out because after chatting more with Thylantyr the max SPL out of them will not reach my goal and to even use them to full potential just means a lot more amplifiers. So I am back to the Fountek and the Beyma TPL150. And they reach about the same SPL max. So they are good for my goals but since spending so much money I am just going to try the TPL's first.

I will just buy a pair of mids, TPL's and 15's. Then here what they sound like. After that I think I will just have to settle on a pair of all the above for each channel for a while. Those TPL's are steep in price so the rest will have to follow in the months/years to come.

Then if everything goes well I will just move the small setup to the surrounds and build the monsters up front.

Everything simmed so far looks great I just have to save the rest and stop looking at numbers.

I need to find a group buy on Beyma stuff. Then that would make things a lot easier.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

I dont feel like starting a new thread so I will ask here.

How do you measure for bracing. I am wanting to make braces for my subwoofer cabinet but I want them to go together. SO that the vertical braces go into the horizontal braces. Like a cross. I have never done this before and I am sure I could figure it out but wondered if it could be explained so I dont wastes any plywood or MDF.


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## maxmercy (Apr 19, 2008)

chrapladm said:


> I dont feel like starting a new thread so I will ask here.
> 
> How do you measure for bracing. I am wanting to make braces for my subwoofer cabinet but I want them to go together. SO that the vertical braces go into the horizontal braces. Like a cross. I have never done this before and I am sure I could figure it out but wondered if it could be explained so I dont wastes any plywood or MDF.


Rout or dado in a slot in each brace's centerpoint halfway through so they fit together. You can add gussets to this joint if necessary. Kind of like THT mouth crossbrace...really get cute and rout slots into the sides for the braces to fit into, and gusset them if needed.....

JSS


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

SO is it just a matter of measuring half on one brace and half on the other brace to get both braces flush?

I will be going crazy with the braces because I really like the way it looks on others builds. Very professional B&W style. Just my opinion but I love the look even though no one will see it.

But this will be my first attempt.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Ok so months are starting to fly away and next thing I know I will be buying some components.

Does anyone know if the Beyma TPL-150H's horn can come off and be just a regular 150?

I was thinking of buying a TPL-150H but if I build an array with them I wondered if I could take the Horn off.

Another question is there anything wrong with making a MTM with the 150H?

I was originally thinking of using a AE15M under the 150H but I have really liked the idea of the speaker not being huge with a 15 on it. PLUS the dual 6's from BC, simulation wise, equal the 15M from 300hz, crossover point, and on. 

I will just be using my sealed subs up to around 300hz. I know its not the best and will sound bad but its what I am going to do for a while. Eventually I will have an 18" for the lowend to 300 hz.

This is what my mains will sort of look like. MTM on top of a bass speaker making the 3 way.









I thought of trying the Raal ribbon like that in the pic but am too worried about fragility. I know the TPL will be fine.

I know the TD18H is the way to go but not sure I will mess with those or not. The 18H probably sounds the best but I really like how the 18sounds 18LW2400 simulated. But that is way down the road also.

I am also going to buy some BG Neo10's and 3pdr. I have heard good things about the Neo 10 and wanted to hear what it would sound like when used with the BG 3PDR. But I do like the look of these speakers also for a surround using the BG neo3. 








If I used this design I would just use a full range 6" like the AE TD6, if it comes out, PHL or just stick with the BC stuff. 

BUT if I like the Neo 10 then I dont know what I will do. Another 3 way design I guess for the surrounds also. 

I know that when I try all these different drivers I will keep them all and just use them for different speakers. Unless I really dislike them. I have a feeling I will like them all. The only problem is I will have to use a LOT of active crossovers. Which means alot of amplifiers.:gulp:

But hopefully I can figure out what crossovers I like and just build some for the surrounds. Then I can use the AVR to power the surrounds.

Sorry for the mass of info but thats how my mind works and I have been simulating for a long time on my subs and mains and getting restless.


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## aceinc (Oct 24, 2006)

Regarding bracing, I like using 3/4" material of choice, dimensioned to fit inside the cabinet, and cut four holes as though you were mounting four flush mount speakers. This braces all four side walls.

If I build another sub, I am going to use at least two drivers opposed or facing each other to cancel vibrations.

Paul


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

My subs dont like small boxes and I am not willing to go bigger than 6cuft for one. And when I was thinking of a dual opposed it needed to be at least 12cuft for .834 Q so thats a bit big for me. PLUS the depth would have to be 24" and I would like to keep these shallower if I can. So I will be going with single driver per cabinet sealed. 

If I was using smaller subs I would go dual opposed. If I was using 15's or possibly 18's then I would go dual opposed. But remember I have 21's on there way.

I cant wait to get started on these builds.But I have to wait for the 21's and the rest of the funds for the multiple different drivers to use.:spend::rant:


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