# Newbie seeking advice for HT upgrade



## rkcp (Mar 26, 2010)

Hi All,

I am new member of this forum. I live in Luxembourg in Europe. I started my HT experience couple of years back with a KEF KHT 3005 sat sub set up paired with a Yamaha RX-V861 receiver. I have been quite happy with it but now have the upgrade bug. I recently upgraded my sub to a SVS PC-12NSD. I used feedback from this as well as other reviews where SVS enjoys a stellar reputation and I was very happy with the upgrade (though I feel that I am not using the sub to its full potential for some reason)

Now I have a budget of another 1,500 EUR left to spend on upgrading the above set up further during this year. I was wondering what will give me the best bang for my buck for this budget.

I have tried to do whatever research I could over this forum as well as others but it is a bit overwhelming for the newbie - the amount of options and choice out there is almost endless and so this post with my specific questions. My apologies in case these have been addressed elsewhere.

1. I now have two sub-woofers, the original KEF HTB-2 sub-woofer which came with the 3005 and the PC-12 NSD to which I upgraded. I am using only the PC-12 as I have read that it is difficult to set up and calibrate two subs of different capability in an HT. I tried connecting both subs using a Y-splitter and letting Yamaha's YPAO auto-calibrate, but was not happy with the result - the sound to my ears seemed muddier and seemed to loose clarity with the two subs. So I went back to using only one. One possible upgrade that I can think of in the above context is to get either one of the higher end AVRs from Onkyo (probably the TXNR1007 is is the one I am looking at) which has both Audyssey Multeq XT as well as two sub-woofer pre-outs for which levels and distance can be set independently. The other option is to go for SVS AS-EQ1 sub EQ which has had great reviews for setting up and integrating the subs properly. Price wise I can probably get a Bstock NR1007 for the same price as an AS-EQ so the AS-EQ seems like a lot to pay for just sub equalisation. 

2. The other upgrade that I have been thinking of is to change my front two speakers to floorstanders. My main use of the HT is 60% movies and 40% music - mainly from my i-pod through the Yamaha's i-pod dock (mp3 / AAC ripped at 320 kbps). I usually listen to music in multichannel mode with Yamaha's compressed music enhancer as this sounds the best to me. For my listening habits, I was wondering if, floorstanders would be a mismatch as most of the reviews and posts talk of the impact o floorstanders on 2 channel music listening. I am not sure what kind of impact it would make to HT or multichannel music especially as I intend to continue to use my KEF eggs to do surround and center channel duty in a 7.1/2 set up if I upgrade to the floorstanders. Will it make the system sound mismatched or can it be made to sound better thorough calibration (auto or manual)

3. The other question that I had was about AV receiver choice. I am happy with my Yamaha - it seems to have more than enough power for my current set up (I stay in an apartment and have small kids, so I rarely play anything above -15 volume levels. The only reasons to upgrade would be for Audyssey Mult XT room correction and the new heights / wides Dolby PL II z / Audyssey DSX etc. Also since I have two subwoofers now (as explained in point 1 above), I would like to have two independent pre-outs. The Onkyo TXNR1007 has all these at an unbeatable price. What I would like to know is if anybody has experience with using the Audyssey Multeq XT with two subwoofers and what was the experience? Is it a worhtwhile upgrade or is the money better spent on upgrading speakers as per 2 above? The other debate that I have been having is on the receiver itself - whether to get a Denon 4310 or an Onkyo? Onkyo is the best value for money, but the Denon does seem to have fewer problems / complaints on this and other forums and I read somewhere that Denon's implementation of Audyssey room correction was better and was more flexible - but the price is a killer - it is 50% more expensive than Onkyo here in Europe!!

So these are the options that I am considering - again my apologies in case the questions are foolish / don't make sense to you guys - I am very new to this as you probably can make out and any help from especially from people who have made similar upgrades from a sub sat configuration would be greatly appreciated.

My thanks in advance and this is a great forum for all HT enthusiasts

Regards / Ravi


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

rkcp said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am new member of this forum. I live in Luxembourg in Europe. I started my HT experience couple of years back with a KEF KHT 3005 sat sub set up paired with a Yamaha RX-V861 receiver. I have been quite happy with it but now have the upgrade bug. I recently upgraded my sub to a SVS PC-12NSD. I used feedback from this as well as other reviews where SVS enjoys a stellar reputation and I was very happy with the upgrade (though I feel that I am not using the sub to its full potential for some reason)
> 
> ...


As someone familiar with the KEF 3005 series. I suggest you upgrade the front 3 channels and move the current L-R channels to surround duty. I suggest the Behringer 2030p for the front 3 speakers, but you can also look at getting KEF speakers. The Kef iQ5/50 series paired with the IQ2/20 series would net a nice front setup. Please note matching surrounds and fronts has not benefit since the sound hits your ear at a very different angle than the fronts do. 

The Behringers are an excellent value, but the KEF do look nicer.


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## rkcp (Mar 26, 2010)

Hi,

thanks for the advice. 

So you think my priority should be to upgrade the speakers rather than the receiver? The Behringer would not be acceptable to the wife, so I have to go with something that is more aesthetic. The KEF looks like a good speaker. I checked briefly online and the suggested center for the iQ50 is the iQ60C. I believe the iQ2C is discontinued. Any thoughts on the iQ60C? Can I get away with not upgrading the center channel (use the existing one from 3005) and upgrade only the L/R or will it be too much of a mismatch? If I upgrade the centre I will have no use for the current one.

Finally, I understand that the speaker choices are practically endless, but do you have any other alternative suggestions for the (L/R/C) that i might consider? i prefer floorstanders to bookshelf (I can't wall mount a bookshelf and with a stand the bookshelf takes up as much space and costs about as much as a floorstander)

thanks / ravi


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## rkcp (Mar 26, 2010)

Hi.

I was doing some online research on your upgrade suggestion (iQ50 (L/R) + iQ60c center) and I saw an alternative mentioned in about the same price range - Monitor Audio Silver RX6 + Centre which was highly regarded. What do you think of this? Any advantage / disadvantage vs the KEFs in your view?

What do you think of the SVS STS-01 towers and SCS-01 center which is also in the same ball park price wise in Europe?

thanks / Ravi


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Hi Ravi, The SVS STS-01s are a great choice along with the SCS-01 for a centre. I am not sure what the price would be in Europe but if you can get them and the price seems fair its a big step up from the other speakers mentioned so far. I also recommend a sub from SVS as for the price its tough to beat.


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## waldo563 (Apr 26, 2009)

rkcp said:


> Hi All,
> 
> One possible upgrade that I can think of in the above context is to get either one of the higher end AVRs from Onkyo (probably the TXNR1007 is is the one I am looking at) which has both Audyssey Multeq XT as well as two sub-woofer pre-outs for which levels and distance can be set independently.


Ravi,

Just a word of caution. Although I have the TX-NR807 not the TX-NR1007, the 807 has two subwoofer outputs but the level and distance are not individually controllable on that model. So you may want to verify whether the sub outputs are individually controllable on the 1007.
As for dual subs, I have 2 SVS PC12-NSD subs and I was concerned about how I would be able to equalize them. Surprisingly, I have had good luck using REW to dial them in at the same time using the same filters for both on the BFD. I would have expected the best results from individual EQ filters but I didn't have much success with that method.


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## rkcp (Mar 26, 2010)

Hi Tony,

Thanks for your advice.

It is interesting that you think that the STS-01 + SCS would be significantly better than MA Silver RX6 / KEF iQ50. From the specifications on the manufacturer's websites MA / KEF speakers seem to have better specs at least from a FR perspective. Also the impression that I got from various forum discussions was that the MA Silver RX6 and its predecessor the RS6 were very highly rated in this price class and I would have expected them to be (slightly if not significantly) better than the SVS entry level towers. I was considering the STS because of the convenience of ordering them and may be cost advantage if I can get B-stock. Also I recently bought an SVS PC-12 sub and was very happy with both the product and the service while the MA is an unknown quantity and there are no dealers in my area.

Have you had a chance to listen to both and why is the STS-01 superior to the MA / KEF in your view?

Thanks again for your help and my apologies if my questions are very basis, I just want to learn as much as possible before i make the actual purchase

Hi Lester,

Thanks for the heads up. I had a look at the user manual of NR1007 - In Page 13 it says as under

"PRE OUT: SW1, SW2
These analog audio outputs can be connected to a
powered subwoofer. You can connect the powered
subwoofer with each jacks respectively. Level and
distance can be set individually for each output."

which seems to be opposite your experience with the 807 - The manual could be mistaken - if there are any 1007 owners who have actually done this they would be the best people to confirm one way or the other.

Regards / Ravi


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## rkcp (Mar 26, 2010)

Hi Tony,

Here are the links to the three speaker manufacturer's specs which I was referring to. Though I don't understand a lot apart from frequency response, the MA / KEF seems to be better spec'd on paper.

http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/products/silver-rx/rx6/specification
http://www.kef.com/gb/loudspeakers/Q-Series/IQ50
http://www.svsound.com/products-spks-sts01.cfm

On another subject, I saw from the signature that you have two different subwoofers in your HT - if you see my original post one of my questions was how helpful the Audyssey Mult EQ XT is in calibrating and integrating dissimilar subs - what has been your experience on this and is it worth upgrading my receiver only to get the Audyssey MultEQ XT or is it better to get the SVS AS-EQ1 (though it is a lot of money for only sub EQ). for me it will be either because i don't have the budget to get both. In fact, i might postpone the speaker upgrade and do the receiver first if you think that will give the most bang for the buck with respect to sound quality - but so far my understanding is that the speaker upgrade will give me the best results so i am planning to do that first.

Thanks a lot for your advice.

regards / ravi


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I have a friend who has MA speakers and likes them allot. Given that you can probably get MA or Keff locally I would go that route instead of SVS as shipping would be expensive to you from over the pond.
With regards to using two different subs the big issue is if one of the subs low end is not as deep as the other then in most cases the more capable subs lower end gets ignored in order to balance them both out. In my case the ADS is the lesser capable sub but still reaches down to 20Hz @98db and the compromise was worth it due to my space being quite large. Normally Audyssey will do the best it can but some tweaking was needed after to the adjustments on the back of each sub to get the response I wanted. I would go with just the receiver for now and see what you can do first. It may well be ok but from all reports the AS EQ dose a great job.


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## rkcp (Mar 26, 2010)

thanks, Tony.

SVS now has a European distributor and I got my SVS sub from them (L-Sound). So funnily enough it is easier and (probably a little cheaper) for me to get STS-01 in Luxembourg than MA / KEF. So in case you think SVS could be better, I can still go for it. 

As regards my two subs, one is the KEF HTB-2 which I replaced with SVS PC-12 which is rated only to go down to 30Hz which is quite a difference from SVS. So do you think I should not attempt to use them together at all? It seems like EQ will not be able to help much with this if I understood you correctly. It just seems a shame not to use the HTB-2 as it is nice little sub within its limitations.

regards / ravi


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I think the build quality of SVS is outstanding so for the money your getting a better speaker in the end. They use very high quality crossovers and drivers, The tweeters are some of the best available in the world. SVS specifications are much closer to real world numbers many other manufacturers (not all) fudge numbers to make them look better as well.


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## rkcp (Mar 26, 2010)

Ok. thanks, Tony. I will keep that in mind.

Regards / ravi


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## JBL Fan (May 1, 2010)

Ravi,


I've owned SVS and loved it - the real deal. I also made a living selling custom A/V for years. I can tell you this, the last thing you want is to come to work and get an angry phone call from a customer who just spent 15K and now the receiver doesn't work. 

I sold Yamaha only for this reason. Yes the Denon gear sounds good and Audessy calbration is nice - fine. But if reliablity is important to you - Yamaha is the way to go IHO and I've sold it all, from Lexicon to Rotel to Sony ES to Krell....

Hope this helps and best of luck


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## rkcp (Mar 26, 2010)

Hi

Thanks for that - I have owned a Yamaha for the past 3 years - it was my first AVR and it has given my absolutely zero trouble and the hi-fi shop who sold it to me advised the same - Yamaha's are rock solid in reliability. But i have read so many good things about Audyssey calibration that i wanted to give it a try - Reliability certainly is a worry - especially if i go for Onkyo which certainly is the leader in features / price but seems to be the last in reliability. But i am guessing i will get a 3 year manufacturer warranty and will probably be ready for another upgrade in 3 years.

i couldn't agree more on the SVS sub that i have now owned for 3 months. Still puts a smile on my face every time. though now that they have become so big, i am just a bit concerned that they will go the same way as the others - putting a price on the name rather than on what they put inside the speakers - hopefully not.

Regards / ravi


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## JBL Fan (May 1, 2010)

Hope it helps Ravi....

The only drawback to Yamaha is the manuals. Whoever writes the manuals for Yamaha should be excuted immediately - no trial. The Japanese translator clearly is drinking too much saki.

Good luck with your searches and if you're looking at speakers you may give the Studio series from JBL a look - great bang for the buck. Remember the rule of diminishing returns on investment and let your wallet be your guide 

More money does not guarantee better sound...


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

rkcp said:


> Hi,
> 
> thanks for the advice.
> 
> ...


Well the iQ20 is the same thing as the IQ2c. I don't like the horizontal driver configuration for center speakers. The iQ20 has the advantage of not using that design flaw.

The iQ50's are floorstanders, but he iQ30s are probably just fine if you have stands. I wouldn't suggest using the Center from the KEF set.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

rkcp said:


> Hi Tony,
> 
> Here are the links to the three speaker manufacturer's specs which I was referring to. Though I don't understand a lot apart from frequency response, the MA / KEF seems to be better spec'd on paper.
> 
> ...


Loudspeaker performance isn't measured solely by the manufacturer published specs(which are overly confident)A third party waterfall graph and off-axis plot would tell you a lot about the speaker. 80hz extension is all that is needed since below that direction audible perception fails to occur.


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## rkcp (Mar 26, 2010)

thanks for that.

i understand what you are saying about the manufacturer specs, and will keep that in mind when i do further research.

i did not understand your comment about iQ2c / iQ20c - i don't think they are available and the iQ60c is the center channel in the iQ series now as i understand. is the iQ60c different fundamentally from iQ2 / 20?

regards / ravi


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

rkcp said:


> thanks for that.
> 
> i understand what you are saying about the manufacturer specs, and will keep that in mind when i do further research.
> 
> ...


It seems they've discontinued them. The iQ60c is a very good center, but substantially more expensive. I think a you'd be great with a pair of iQ50s and an iQ60


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## waldo563 (Apr 26, 2009)

rkcp said:


> Hi Lester,
> 
> Thanks for the heads up. I had a look at the user manual of NR1007 - In Page 13 it says as under
> 
> ...


Ravi,

That's interesting...of course the 807 is a lower end model than the 1007 so it may not have that feature but I will look through the manual more thoroughly. It wouldn't be the first time I missed something and it would be nice to have that capability.

Edit: After looking through the 807 manual, I came across this, unfortunately:

PRE OUT: SUBWOOFER
These analog audio outputs can be connected to a
powered subwoofer. You can connect the powered
subwoofer with two PREOUT: SUBWOOFER
jacks respectively. The same signal is output from
each jack.

So that must be an additional capability that the 1007 has over the 807. Oh well, that's what I get for going with the cheaper model.


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## rkcp (Mar 26, 2010)

waldo563 said:


> Ravi,
> 
> That's interesting...of course the 807 is a lower end model than the 1007 so it may not have that feature but I will look through the manual more thoroughly. It wouldn't be the first time I missed something and it would be nice to have that capability.
> 
> ...


Hi Lester,

The language in the 807 manual is almost exactly the same as what is used in the Denon 4810 manual to describe its three subwoofer preout capability. Page 14 of the 4810 manual says

"The AVR-4810 can be connected to a maximum of three subwoofers.
The same signal is output from each subwoofer terminal."

i was wondering what this meant but now it is clear - I don't know what Denon were thinking doing this in their $3000 AVR - if you are offering three pre-outs, the least you could do for your customer is to give him the flexibility to use it in the way most people would want to. A big thumbs up to Onkyo for implementing the independent calibration of multiple subwoofers in all models from 1007 upwards - and 1007 retails for half (less than half on the street) vs the Denon 4810. I really wanted to get a Denon if / when i upgrade my AVR, but things like this makes me think that they are happy to coast along on their premium reputation and are not focused on giving the customer the best bang for the buck which seems to be what Onkyo does best.

Only issue with Onkyos seem to be the "perceived" low(er) reliability - what was your thought process when you decided to go for the 807? did you consider other brands / models?

Regards / ravi


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## waldo563 (Apr 26, 2009)

rkcp said:


> Only issue with Onkyos seem to be the "perceived" low(er) reliability - what was your thought process when you decided to go for the 807? did you consider other brands / models?
> 
> Regards / ravi


Hi, Ravi

Previous to the 807, I had a Denon AVR-1910 which I was pretty happy with except I wanted pre-outs and more power. Before the 1910, I had always bought Onkyo and, until I got my 606, had been pleased with my purchases.
With the 606, I had a "hum" with 1080P HDMI input that seemed to be tied to the Audyssey Dynamic EQ and my room acoustics which Onkyo was unable to or uninterested in resolving and that along with the persistent high operating temperature is what prompted me to switch brands.
When I was shopping for my current AVR, the only other brand I considered seriously was Denon. Ultimately, I ended up choosing the Onkyo based on the feature set for the price. Although generally satisfied with the 807, I have had some annoying issues with the Network Radio feature that remains unacknowledged by Onkyo even though it appears to be documented on several forums.
Although the Onkyo models still seem to give you the best "bang for your buck". There are several issues which will have me considering other brands such as Denon, Yamaha, and maybe Pioneer.
However, at this point my next component purchase wil most likely be an outboard 2 or 3 channel amplifier such as the Emotiva XPA-2/XPA-3 models rather than another AVR.
In my opinion, Onkyo is experiencing a degradation in quality and reliability in the rush to be first to market with new features.


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## rkcp (Mar 26, 2010)

Hi Lester,

thanks for your feedback on the 807. it pretty much confirms my impression also from the various forums on the net. hope onkyo is listening to the market and improves its reliability and customer service. at this moment it seems that if you go for onkyo you are taking a risk whether the unit you get will work properly or not and i think there is nothing more frustrating than getting a shiny new piece of electronics and then having to run behind the manufacturer to honor its warranty.

regards / ravi


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I've owned my Onkyo 805 for almost 3 years now and not had one issue and I even updated the firmware myself without issues. There are many members here at the Shack who have Onkyo products and i know of only one person who had issues with them. There are many people who dont like Onkyo because they offer so much for so little Denon and Yamaha also make good products and also have there own issues, Yamaha has problems with passing HDMI through their receivers due to handshake issues. Denons also have their problems. If your going to spread negative comments about any certain products make sure that they are true and not just people making things up. 
Heat produced by receivers is always an issue and they must be allowed to breath.


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## rkcp (Mar 26, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> I've owned my Onkyo 805 for almost 3 years now and not had one issue and I even updated the firmware myself without issues. There are many members here at the Shack who have Onkyo products and i know of only one person who had issues with them. There are many people who dont like Onkyo because they offer so much for so little Denon and Yamaha also make good products and also have there own issues, Yamaha has problems with passing HDMI through their receivers due to handshake issues. Denons also have their problems. If your going to spread negative comments about any certain products make sure that they are true and not just people making things up.
> Heat produced by receivers is always an issue and they must be allowed to breath.


Hi Tony,

I was merely commenting on the feedback from Lester and not "spreading negative comments about certain products " - do you mean to imply that the negative feedback from lester based on his specific experience with the 606 and 807 is not true / valid? just as you seem to have had a positive experience with Onkyo, lester and many others have commented about negative experiences with Onkyo - and the negative feedback does seem to be much higher than the other major brands. this could be due to the fact that onkyos sell more due to the value that they offer in terms of price / features and people with negative experience tend to post more than those with positive experiences. i would love it if i could buy onkyo products without having any reliability concerns because they offer the best bank for the buck by far, as I have stated before in my previous post. Unfortunately i do have concerns based on what i have seen on this and other forums and that is merely what i was expressing. i don't see any reason for you to get offended (as it seems from your comment) or to imply that people who have had negative experience with onkyo products are "making things up".

regards / ravi


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

rkcp said:


> Hi Tony,
> 
> i don't see any reason for you to get offended (as it seems from your comment) or to imply that people who have had negative experience with onkyo products are "making things up".
> 
> regards / ravi


No offense taken, I have just read so many posts on forums that simply bash one manufacturer and find many people have no actual evidence to back them up other than what others have said. I remember the fear mongering of "many Onkyos bursting into flames" story that was floating around the net two years ago and not one person I could find could actually confirm that this actually happened.

I also do not believe that Onkyos have any more issues than any other manufacturer. The only complaint I can confirm with Onkyo's in general is the difficulty in upgrading firmware on older models before the x06 series and issues with streaming from the PC.


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