# SVS PC12 Plus overkill?



## Stealth3si (Oct 12, 2012)

Denon 1712
Front: Pioneer SP-BS41-LR
Center: Pioneer SP-C21
Rear: Pioneer SP-BS21-LR
Subwoofer: SVS 12 Plus

10' W x10' D x 9' H enclosed room with one corner opening up to 3' W x 2.33' D x 9' H area where door is.

is this too much? for the speakers that i won't get the msot out of the subwoofer?


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## gtpsuper24 (Jun 24, 2009)

No probably not. IMO its always best to buy a subwoofer more capable than what you really need. The SVS plus will play loud and will probably have more output than what the Pioneers are capable of. But you will level match the system anyway with the auto setup in the Denon. The SVS will give you great extension and very low distortion.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

I suspect the dimensions will be more of a problem then anything. That room is almost perfectly square, which is never good for bass. The sub itself should be fine.


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## Stealth3si (Oct 12, 2012)

really? man i hope i don't need to break down some walls to get the best out of it.

as for level matching the system with the auto setup in the Denon, will the sub be 'crippled' because of thatt? the speakers holding back the sub's true potential/performance?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

The speakers aren't an issue, the shape of the room is.

Low frequencies don't really like square rooms all that much, so it might be a challenge to get the sub properly tuned. That doesn't mean you can't make it sound good, it's just that the acoustics of square rooms don't really allow a sub to work as good as it would in a rectangular room. Proper EQ, room treatments, level matching, etc. all can help mitigate the issues, but physics will ultimately limit what you can do.


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## gtpsuper24 (Jun 24, 2009)

Didn't notice the room being square. I would say skip the Plus and look at a pair of SB12 NSD subs. A pair or more will help even the bass out and improve the freq response of the subs. A sealed room and being square will probably get you alot of room gain from experience. My room is sealed and my sub is tuned only to 25hrz but I get useable output well below that. So with duals, plus a sealed room you could get some great extension with those SB12s, plus improved freq response. 

If at all possible I would look into superchunk style bass traps like Gik Acoustics (tri traps) for the corners. That will also help tame some of the room acoustics issues in the midbass/upperbass.


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## Stealth3si (Oct 12, 2012)

due to my space limitations on the floor, i can only afford one subwoofer, that must be smaller than 17" in depth. the SB12 NSD fits but I can't have two. that leaves me with one SB12 NSD and the 23hz kinda turns me off.

Other than the PC12 Plus the other alternative I can think of is SVS PC12 NSD.

I do have Denon's Audyssey MultEQ XT feature for room calibration and IIRC it has sub calibration too. would that help tune the sub properly? Also, would the cost of buying an SPL meter be worth it to tune it easier if at all?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Does the sub have to be from SVS?


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## Ed Mullen (Jul 28, 2006)

Stealth3si said:


> due to my space limitations on the floor, i can only afford one subwoofer, that must be smaller than 17" in depth. the SB12 NSD fits but I can't have two. that leaves me with one SB12 NSD and the 23hz kinda turns me off.
> 
> Other than the PC12 Plus the other alternative I can think of is SVS PC12 NSD.
> 
> I do have Denon's Audyssey MultEQ XT feature for room calibration and IIRC it has sub calibration too. would that help tune the sub properly? Also, would the cost of buying an SPL meter be worth it to tune it easier if at all?


A single PC12-NSD is more than enough output in a 10x10 room. A single PC12-Plus is overkill IMO, but if properly calibrated and run in the 16 Hz mode (or even in Sealed mode) it would perform fine. 

If you have the height, dual stacked SB12-NSD would be a nice option in that room (even a single SB12-NSD would perform well). 

The deep extension ratings we show on the website are for quasi-anechoic at 2 meter ground plane. In-room extension will be considerably deeper with room gain considered, which will be significant in that size enclosed room. 

Audyssey MultEQ will help reduce excessive low-end due to room gain, so it's good you have a Denon equipped with Audyssey. As others have stated, a 10x10x9 room will be rather problematic in the modal band, and will probably have a large null in the center of the room. Below the modal/pressure transition frequency, it will not support standing waves, but will simply start to exhibit a lot of low-end gain, which Audyssey can control.


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## Stealth3si (Oct 12, 2012)

theJman said:


> Does the sub have to be from SVS?


at this point, I'm trying to wrap up my sub research, including other brands, like HSU and Rythmik, Jamo, Klipsch, etc. and I've settled on the SVS because of their customer service that I've heard. 

Just curiosu what sub brand were you thinking of besides SVS?



Ed Mullen said:


> A single PC12-NSD is more than enough output in a 10x10 room. A single PC12-Plus is overkill IMO, but if properly calibrated and run in the 16 Hz mode (or even in Sealed mode) it would perform fine.
> 
> If you have the height, dual stacked SB12-NSD would be a nice option in that room (even a single SB12-NSD would perform well).
> 
> ...


okay. I'm now seriously considering the dual stacked SB12-NSD, assuming they can be literally stacked on top of each other.


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## Ed Mullen (Jul 28, 2006)

Stealth3si said:


> okay. I'm now seriously considering the dual stacked SB12-NSD, assuming they can be literally stacked on top of each other.


Yes, they can be stacked. I recommend the black textured finish and not the gloss. A pair of felt-bottomed soft rubber furniture cups can be used under the feet to help spread out the load.

A pair of SB12-NSD in a 10x10 room would be pretty insane. :hsd: We discount the pair pretty heavily compared to the singles price, and shipping is free too.


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## Stealth3si (Oct 12, 2012)

gtpsuper24 said:


> If at all possible I would look into superchunk style bass traps like Gik Acoustics (tri traps) for the corners. That will also help tame some of the room acoustics issues in the midbass/upperbass.


any particular budget alternatives and recommendations? those are quite expensive -- $129 for one really? wow...


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## Stealth3si (Oct 12, 2012)

Ed Mullen said:


> Yes, they can be stacked. I recommend the black textured finish and not the gloss. A pair of felt-bottomed soft rubber furniture cups can be used under the feet to help spread out the load.
> 
> A pair of SB12-NSD in a 10x10 room would be pretty insane. :hsd: We discount the pair pretty heavily compared to the singles price, and shipping is free too.


How would I plug two subs to one receiver, Denon 1712? it has one sub out. do i use a rca splitter or daisy chaing gang the subwoofers?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Stealth3si said:


> at this point, I'm trying to wrap up my sub research, including other brands, like HSU and Rythmik, Jamo, Klipsch, etc. and I've settled on the SVS because of their customer service that I've heard.
> 
> Just curiosu what sub brand were you thinking of besides SVS?


There are myriad quality subwoofer brands, so other choices abound. However, if you've already settled on SVS that's fine - they're one of the quality brands.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Stealth3si said:


> How would I plug two subs to one receiver, Denon 1712? it has one sub out. do i use a rca splitter or daisy chaing gang the subwoofers?


An RCA Y adapter would be fine, and is what most people use.


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## Stealth3si (Oct 12, 2012)

theJman said:


> An RCA Y adapter would be fine, and is what most people use.


Thanks. I think i'm going with a single sub instead, probably the PC12-NSD. and i'll try to use rca y adapter on the sub first and if it gives auto function issues i'll ditch the adapter.


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## HTip (Oct 10, 2011)

Not to worry you, but Jim (theJman) has a point. You will have a hard time getting any sub to work well in your room. I used a room mode calculator (http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm) to determine where you might have a problem. Your room has issues below 160Hz.

One passage from the explanation (http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModeExplanationReferences.htm)



> To see a really bad room, try (10 foot by 10 foot by 10 foot).
> To see a less bad room, try (10 foot by 10 foot by 9 foot).


:sweat:


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## Stealth3si (Oct 12, 2012)

HTip said:


> Not to worry you, but Jim (theJman) has a point.


heh, you'll have hard time getting me not to worry, even on a good day.



HTip said:


> You will have a hard time getting any sub to work well in your room.


Just to be sure, I understand "work well" as producing accurate bass? or am I missing something?

What would I need do to make a single PC12-NSD work well? Or, rather, what do I do to let it work poorly?



HTip said:


> Your room has issues below 160Hz.


So, what are the issues practically? If you're thinking of audio numbers or technical data, can you translate them into what an average movie viewer would acoustically experience and perceive as movie bass?


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## HTip (Oct 10, 2011)

Stealth3si said:


> Just to be sure, I understand "work well" as producing accurate bass? or am I missing something?
> 
> What would I need do to make a single PC12-NSD work well? Or, rather, what do I do to let it work poorly?
> 
> So, what are the issues practically? If you're thinking of audio numbers or technical data, can you translate them into what an average movie viewer would acoustically experience and perceive as movie bass?


One of the problems with accurate bass response is standing waves. They could even out (lack of bass at that point in the room) or amplify (too much bass) at that particular frequency. A square room has more (chance of) standing waves, either from the floor/ceiling or the walls.

Translated into practical situation you can think of explosions in movies that are way too loud relative to the rest of the sound or way too soft. Bass response is also not tight (muddy) with a lot of reverb.

It probably doesn't matter what subwoofer you place. Without the proper acoustic treatment (such as bass traps) of the room you probably won't be satisfied with the result. But it also depends on your taste and experience with sound production.

If you look at my build thread ("How it was made" in my sig) you can see some measurement which reflect my problems in the various stages of the construction. My reverb times (RT-60) in the initial phase where really bad and it took quite some treatment to get to what I'm able to experience now. I have a special ceiling with acoustic tiles (handles everything above 250Hz) and a projection wall with bass traps and other absorbers (50-250Hz). In the back of the room I have a RPG bass trap which covers the really low frequencies (35-50Hz). And still I have a "problem" with 45 en 160Hz, but I can't do anything more about that. To be honest I don't think anyone will notice.

Furthermore my sub is isolated from the floor and the rest of the room (Auralex Gramma) and has built-in DSP and EQ. That with good setup (placement, phase, timing, level, EQ/DSP) puts a smile on my face everytime I'm in the room. :hsd:

I hope you can also enjoy the bass response and your room from your new SVS sub.


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## HTip (Oct 10, 2011)

Have you made your choice yet?


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## Stealth3si (Oct 12, 2012)

I went with the PC12-NSD.  haven't set it up yet but I intend to open a thread on how to use REW with a Art pre dual + Dayton audio mic to find measurements I can use to verify post-audyssey calibration and find problems where I can use acoustical treatment.


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