# Expert help need pronto!



## rowe2424 (Nov 12, 2009)

hello all,
this is my first post and i have come for expert advice and i believe this is the place for it.
I will be upgrading my HTB that sounds like a milk pans soon and this is what i have selected. I want to keep the price under US $1000.

*Choices*

*Floorstanding Left & Right* = Bic America Dv64 6.5 http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-Venturi-Speaker-Single/dp/B00011KLOI/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1372187092&sr=8-3&keywords=bic+america

*Center* = BIC America DV-62CLRS http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-DV-62CLRS-Channel-Speaker/dp/B00009WBYL/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1372187092&sr=8-7&keywords=bic+america

*Surrounds* BIC America DV62si http://www.amazon.com/BIC-America-DV62si-Bookshelf-Speakers/dp/B00006JPDI/ref=pd_bxgy_e_text_y

*SUB 1* = Theater Solutions SUB15F http://www.amazon.com/Theater-Solutions-Surround-Powered-Subwoofer/dp/B007NZKNVQ/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=419CPRZ90JL7&coliid=I3L4XJMZSQK98K

*SUB 2* = Klipsch RW12D http://www.amazon.com/Klipsch-RW12D-12-inch-Reference-Subwoofer/dp/B000UVWIO0/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=419CPRZ90JL7&coliid=I3PRD7TW3W1NU4

*Reciever* = Onkyo TX-NR616 http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR616-7-2-Channel-Certified-Receiver/dp/B0077V88W2/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=3AS5VF4NBNGPK&coliid=I2JN3GST16CQD1


I would like to know how do the front, center and surrounds sound together, and which of the two subs will compliment them better? I like the klipsch but the Theater Solutions has great reviews.

Also, any recommendations for a 5.1 set with receiver fitting my budget are welcomed.


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

rowe2424 said:


> hello all,
> this is my first post and i have come for expert advice and i believe this is the place for it.
> I will be upgrading my HTB that sounds like a milk pans soon and this is what i have selected. I want to keep the price under US $1000.
> 
> ...


those fronts should do just fine. they're all tone matched and are decent speakers for the price. sub wise. it doesn't matter WHAT sub you get, as long as you dial it in it will blend well

the klipsch is an ok sub for that price, but if you're spending almost $400 on a sub ... just save up a $100 more and get the SVS-PB1000... the different is night and day

also the 616 is a great receiver. will do wonderfully well


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## TheLaw612 (Jan 17, 2012)

Save a little on a receiver and buy it refurbished from Accessories4Less. They come with a warranty with the option to buy an extended warranty. There are many forum members who have purchased from them. 

Maybe something like THIS Denon 1712 since it has Audyssey MultiEQ XT which the Onkyo 616 does not. It is 7.1 but if you don't need that and want networking then get the 1713.

That will allow you to spend more for a better sub which is a must. Go with Mike's suggestion for the SVS PB-1000 for $500 shipped. I doubt there is a better sub out there for $500 or less.

The BIC speakers will be great but I'll also throw in the Andrew Jones Pioneer's as a suggestion as well.


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## rowe2424 (Nov 12, 2009)

TheLaw612 said:


> Save a little on a receiver and buy it refurbished from Accessories4Less. They come with a warranty with the option to buy an extended warranty. There are many forum members who have purchased from them.
> 
> Maybe something like THIS Denon 1712 since it has Audyssey MultiEQ XT which the Onkyo 616 does not. It is 7.1 but if you don't need that and want networking then get the 1713.
> 
> ...


First off, thanks for your reply. I personally want a 7.2 receiver and that is why i looked at the onkyo 616 but for that last two days i have seen so many reviews saying that the onkyo 616 has some firmware issues and something about the audio cutting off and starting back with out any reason. I am looking towards Denon A/V receivers but it is a bit overwhelming. As to the sub-woofers, i know of the SVS PB-1000 but i am of the view that Klipsch SW-110 or the SW-112 are better but i have no on experience with them. 

:dontknow:So i am back to square one regarding my a/v receiver and my sub-woofer choices.


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

rowe2424 said:


> First off, thanks for your reply. I personally want a 7.2 receiver and that is why i looked at the onkyo 616 but for that last two days i have seen so many reviews saying that the onkyo 616 has some firmware issues and something about the audio cutting off and starting back with out any reason. I am looking towards Denon A/V receivers but it is a bit overwhelming. As to the sub-woofers, i know of the SVS PB-1000 but i am of the view that Klipsch SW-110 or the SW-112 are better but i have no on experience with them.
> 
> :dontknow:So i am back to square one regarding my a/v receiver and my sub-woofer choices.


let us know what receivers in the Denon line you're looking at and we can help you out

and noooooooooooooooooo the SW-110 or 112 are NOWHERE as good as even a single PB-1000, I've had experience with all 3 and the SVS toasts them. the Klipsch's don't dig as deep and sound muddy. (the SW-112 is about as POWERFUL as the SVS but it suffers from the muddy bass syndrome that most Klipsch subs seem to suffer with on the low end of the price spectrum)


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## rowe2424 (Nov 12, 2009)

Mike Edwards said:


> let us know what receivers in the Denon line you're looking at and we can help you out
> 
> and noooooooooooooooooo the SW-110 or 112 are NOWHERE as good as even a single PB-1000, I've had experience with all 3 and the SVS toasts them. the Klipsch's don't dig as deep and sound muddy. (the SW-112 is about as POWERFUL as the SVS but it suffers from the muddy bass syndrome that most Klipsch subs seem to suffer with on the low end of the price spectrum)


These are some that i am looking at. One is an Onkyo and the rest are denon.
*Denon*
Denon AVR-1912, Denon AVR-X1000, Denon AVR2312CI, Denon AVR-2313CI and Onkyo TX-NR809. What do you think. Also, can i hook up two sub-woofers to a a/v receiver that only has one sub-woofer pre-out and if so how would i do that?

All the receivers form Accessories4less.com seem to be refurbished. I am worried about the quality and how long they will last? I live in the Caribbean and if something goes wrong in a few months and i have to send it back that will be a GIANT pain in the butt for me. I don't want to go through that stress.


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

rowe2424 said:


> These are some that i am looking at. One is an Onkyo and the rest are denon.
> *Denon*
> Denon AVR-1912, Denon AVR-X1000, Denon AVR2312CI, Denon AVR-2313CI and Onkyo TX-NR809. What do you think. Also, can i hook up two sub-woofers to a a/v receiver that only has one sub-woofer pre-out and if so how would i do that?
> 
> All the receivers form Accessories4less.com seem to be refurbished. I am worried about the quality and how long they will last? I live in the Caribbean and if something goes wrong in a few months and i have to send it back that will be a GIANT pain in the butt for me. I don't want to go through that stress.


the 809 is a personal favorite of mine, but the AVR2312CI is a good one. either one should do you well. I've played with the 809 a fair chunk so I've had a bit more personal experience with it.

and yeah, the living in the Caribbean could be an issue or returning. as for refurbs, most refurbs from Onkyo or Denon will be just as good and long lasting as their new sisters and brothers. but if you're not comfortable with that then that's fine too, whatever gives you peace of mind..


as for 2 subs to one pre-out. easy peasy. use a Y adapter (2 female inputs and one male output) and voila. It's how I wired in my THT's


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

The 809 is a wondwerful receiver with plenty of power and features such as dual sub outs, they are independant of each other, in other words the same signal is output from each pre-out. If you go with a receiver with one sub output get a y adapter like this.
http://www.cablewholesale.com/produ...c=1&zmap=381&gclid=CNSZ-orQhbgCFQyg4Aod-VoACA
Another thought would be the Onkyo TX-NR709, very similar to the 809 with less power, both the 809 and 709 have pre-outs also if you ever decide to use out-board amplification, very useful feature. They tend to run a bit hot, that is easily remedied with this or place in a well ventilated space, I have three Onkyos and the 702 is still working flawlessly after eight years, no problems with any of them. Some (many) may disagree with Onkyo but I have very good results with them.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103073
Cheers Jeff


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

There is an Onkyo 809 with less than 20 hours on it for sale in the classified section of this forum, asking $450 but I think the guy just lowered the price, there you go my man.:T


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## rowe2424 (Nov 12, 2009)

Mike Edwards said:


> the 809 is a personal favorite of mine, but the AVR2312CI is a good one. either one should do you well. I've played with the 809 a fair chunk so I've had a bit more personal experience with it.
> 
> and yeah, the living in the Caribbean could be an issue or returning. as for refurbs, most refurbs from Onkyo or Denon will be just as good and long lasting as their new sisters and brothers. but if you're not comfortable with that then that's fine too, whatever gives you peace of mind..
> 
> ...


I have two more a/v receivers for you to give your view on. They are the Denon AVR-E400 and the Yamaha RX-V573. Also how is this sub-woofer Acoustech H-100? I know it isn't a SVS but what quality is, is it tight and heavy as a sub-woofer should be?

Can anyone tell me why so many reviews or the Klipsch RW12D say it is a good sub-woofer but either it has a broken speaker grill or loose port? The price on newegg.com meets my budget nicely $349 shipped and it looks so wicked.


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

rowe2424 said:


> I have two more a/v receivers for you to give your view on. They are the Denon AVR-E400 and the Yamaha RX-V573. Also how is this sub-woofer Acoustech H-100? I know it isn't a SVS but what quality is, is it tight and heavy as a sub-woofer should be?
> 
> Can anyone tell me why so many reviews or the Klipsch RW12D say it is a good sub-woofer but either it has a broken speaker grill or loose port? The price on newegg.com meets my budget nicely $349 shipped and it looks so wicked.


the Denon isn't bad but the Yamaha isn't that good of a value. competing receivers have more features for the same price point. 

yeah, the klipsch line had some issues with the RW series had some issues with broken drivers or loose ports. It's in the value line so they let QC slip for a while.

if you only have $350 to spend it's not bad, and the Acoustech H-100 is about on Par with the Bic F12...meaning it's probably the better of the value line of subs....

now the reason many of us suggest upgrading to an entry level HSU or SVS is because they are in a league all their own and I GUARANTEE you that in a year you're gonna start wanting to upgrade. the rule of thumb I've always lived by has been take the cost of your speakers, the receiver and your player. double that figure and that's about where you want to start spending on your subs. now of course none of us are trying to tell you what you SHOULD spend, just offer the advice since it's one of the most commonly upgraded items in your whole setup (I played the upgrade game for years and wish I'd just saved up for what I wanted originally instead of spending money on the lower end models and upgrading every year or so.)


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Out of the receivers listed the Onkyo 809 is in a much different class. It offers so much for the money it would be foolish to pass on it. As Mike said the SVS or HSU is in another level above the rest. The PB1000 would be very hard to beat even spending near twice as much at a brick and mortar store.


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Out of the receivers listed the Onkyo 809 is in a much different class. It offers so much for the money it would be foolish to pass on it. As Mike said the SVS or HSU is in another lever above the rest. The PB1000 would be very hard to beat even spending near twice as much at a brick and mortar store.


agreed, I'd have to concur that the 809 is the best bang for your buck of the receivers


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## rowe2424 (Nov 12, 2009)

Mike Edwards said:


> the Denon isn't bad but the Yamaha isn't that good of a value. competing receivers have more features for the same price point.
> 
> yeah, the klipsch line had some issues with the RW series had some issues with broken drivers or loose ports. It's in the value line so they let QC slip for a while.
> 
> ...


I know you and everyone else are not suggesting how much i should spend and i am very thankful for the advice. This is to be my first real HTS for my cinema/game room. I recently completed my water cooled PC rig and i am getting a 55inch samsung tv that is on the way, so i want this system to be just as cool. 

My choices of the a/v receivers, thanks to the replies i got and other threads have been narrowed down to the Onkyo 809, or the Denon AVR-2313CI and i will be keeping the Bic America speakers but i will add another pair of surrounds. I still have some doubts about the Onkyo however as i keep seeing reviews about various models having problems with the firmware and upgrading the firmware but i really like the multitude of features they come with.

Now regarding the subwoofer, i am now leaning towards building my own as i have just finished researching the SVS subwoofers and have found them to be way to expensive for the ones i want, like the SVS PB12 Plus and SVS PB13 Ultra but good god they look MEAN. The SVS PB100 is ok but a little on the small side and looks unassuming. From reading other threads, i see this is the place to look for help. I want my subwoofer to be either ported or with passive radiators so i have made these choices.

*Subwoofer without Passive Radiators* Dayton Audio UM10-22 10" http://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-UM10-22-Ultimax-Subwoofer/dp/B00ADR2CKQ/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_20

*Subwoofer with Passive Radiators* TC Sounds Epic 12" with one or two TC Sounds VMP 12" Passive Radiator

I have no dimensions yet but i do know i want the subwoofer to be square with great SPL, SQL and i would like it tuned to 20hz. The size can be big, i wouldn't mind. It is ease for me to get any wood i would need, cut, routed and sanded as i live very near a made to order carpentry place. 

What advice can any of you give me on these subwoofers and a proper box for either subwoofer build?

Thanks for all views expressed so far as they have been a huge help for me and i hope i am not too annoying with all my questions to any of you.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

You are correct, the SVS PB13 Ultra is a mean sub (I have one and its something you have he hear to believe) That said given your budget even DIY wont get you even close to the output of the PB13u. 
Dont let the small size of the PB1000 fool you, for the money it is very very good.


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

I hope you know what you're getting into with a DIY subwoofer, there's a lot more than having an enclosure built and dropping some driver(s) into it. I'm not trying to discourage you from doing so by any means. I would still consider the 809 over the Denon, it's just me. I believe the Denon does not offer preamp outputs, correct me if I'm wrong, that to me is a priority, sure you will read many Onkyo failures but consider the amount of units sold, I have three and not a problem with any of them. As far as subwoofers, this is another area I would not skimp on, and then there is resale value. Right now PSA is the subwoofer company to be reckoned with IMO. I think the XV15 would be a wonderful addition to your setup. Customer service is second to none, before and after sale, made in the USA and a 5 year transferable warranty. I'm not trying to talk you out of DIY but unless you have some skills in doing so it end up costing more than an ID sub. Give PSA a look.
Especially this one.
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x/products/xs15-base
Cheers Jeff


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

rowe2424 said:


> I know you and everyone else are not suggesting how much i should spend and i am very thankful for the advice. This is to be my first real HTS for my cinema/game room. I recently completed my water cooled PC rig and i am getting a 55inch samsung tv that is on the way, so i want this system to be just as cool.
> 
> My choices of the a/v receivers, thanks to the replies i got and other threads have been narrowed down to the Onkyo 809, or the Denon AVR-2313CI and i will be keeping the Bic America speakers but i will add another pair of surrounds. I still have some doubts about the Onkyo however as i keep seeing reviews about various models having problems with the firmware and upgrading the firmware but i really like the multitude of features they come with.
> 
> ...


lol, yeah the PB-13 ultras are absolutely scary. 

now DIY is the way to go if you're good with a saw and decent at following directions...

I'd go with one of these
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-472

and an Inuke 3000 to power it with once channel (leaves you another channel to upgrade with down the road for a second monstrosity)

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-NU3...TF8&qid=1372563639&sr=8-2&keywords=inuke+3000

that will come pretty close to a PB-13 (not completely there, but pretty dang close tuned at 20hz)

if you wanna go as cheap as possible and don't mind the size, go with 2 of Lilmike's F-20's or Bill Fitzmaurice's THT design. I have 2 of those and the output is enough to frighten off a grizzly bear...although you lose anything below 22-24 hz due to the roll off of the horn.


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## rowe2424 (Nov 12, 2009)

Mike Edwards said:


> lol, yeah the PB-13 ultras are absolutely scary.
> 
> now DIY is the way to go if you're good with a saw and decent at following directions...
> 
> ...


It is true i said that size is not a problem but those horn subwoofers will be a problem also they do not look classy, they look like DJ boxes. So i have another addition to the subwoofer list for assessment from you all, it is this Earthquake sound ff12 the new version, which i have been told by Earthquake as being the same as the old version except for box size and port. http://www.amazon.com/Earthquake-Sound-FF12-Firing-Subwoofer/dp/B00A45JG9C/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=419CPRZ90JL7&coliid=I3FRVH8J53L2GL

So tell me what you think. I know it is no SVS and i think two of these in a 7.2 set up will be very good.


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

rowe2424 said:


> It is true i said that size is not a problem but those horn subwoofers will be a problem also they do not look classy, they look like DJ boxes. So i have another addition to the subwoofer list for assessment from you all, it is this Earthquake sound ff12 the new version, which i have been told by Earthquake as being the same as the old version except for box size and port. http://www.amazon.com/Earthquake-Sound-FF12-Firing-Subwoofer/dp/B00A45JG9C/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=419CPRZ90JL7&coliid=I3FRVH8J53L2GL
> 
> So tell me what you think. I know it is no SVS and i think two of these in a 7.2 set up will be very good.


the earthquake is a semi decent sub. about on par with the klipsch or BIC. decent entry level. if you plan on doing 2 of them like you mentioned that Inuke 3000 combo with the dayton 18 inch driver in a 8-12 cubic foot box would still whomp BOTH Earthquakes pretty easily for about the same price. + give you another channel on the inuke when you WILL (  ) want to upgrade to a second.

yeah, the horn's are MONSTERS. it's one of the only real downsides to them. but they do put out more output than you would believe (built 2 of them inluding amps for $700 and I can break 120 decibels at 22-24 hz). 

being that you said you wanted 2 of the subs in a 7.2 setup I'm not sure if you're sticking by your original $350 ish budget or not. 

1. if you HAVE to stick by your $350 ish budget the earhquake or 2 bic f12's will it for you. 
2. if you can expand it to $500 ish than the SVS PB-1000 is EASILY the no brainer. 
3. if you really do like the DIY route the inuke3000/dayton 18 incher is pretty much a "duh" for the price range.

but honestly if you have the budget for it and are spending $700 for 2 earthquakes then I'd go get an SVS PB-12 or HSU VTF-3 or something similar (or the DIY route, that all depends on your skills with a saw and if you want to put forth the effort). those subs you've expressed an interest in CAN NOT keep up with the big boys like the PB-12 or even the PB-1000 in terms of depth and clarity. the earthquake might in terms of output but a not all 12 inch drivers and few hundred watt amps are created equal. the Earthquake will give you a solid amount of SPL but by all accounts are very sloppy and boomy


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## rowe2424 (Nov 12, 2009)

Mike Edwards said:


> the earthquake is a semi decent sub. about on par with the klipsch or BIC. decent entry level. if you plan on doing 2 of them like you mentioned that Inuke 3000 combo with the dayton 18 inch driver in a 8-12 cubic foot box would still whomp BOTH Earthquakes pretty easily for about the same price. + give you another channel on the inuke when you WILL (  ) want to upgrade to a second.
> 
> yeah, the horn's are MONSTERS. it's one of the only real downsides to them. but they do put out more output than you would believe (built 2 of them inluding amps for $700 and I can break 120 decibels at 22-24 hz).
> 
> ...


So you are of the view that one SVS PB-1000 or one HSU VTF-3 is way better than two of the Earthquake FF12 or two of the Klipsck RW12D subwoofers right?

Now what about these subwoofers as other choices for a 7.2 setup:-

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470939031&pf_rd_i=507846
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1389517282&pf_rd_i=507846
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1389517282&pf_rd_i=507846

The price of the JBL is really good for me but i do not know about the quality of the subwoofer against the others meaning, would i need two JBLs to reach this new Klipsch sub or this NXG subwoofer that i was referd to by my aunt. She has two in her living room and she says it isn't like her Definitive Technology SuperCube Reference subwoofers in her theater room but she says it sounds really good. 

My view about the SVSs is that i would prefer to build my own for the same price if i have to go the SVS route and get more for my money and i am sure i can get some help from this site for some plans and i would do this after i buy some subwoofers for now. It will be my project for next year once i have the time.

I already have WinISD pro and have contacted TC sounds for some information on their Epic 12" subwoofer to input into WinISD as it is not in WinISD pro's database of subwoofers.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

rowe2424 said:


> My view about the SVSs is that i would prefer to build my own for the same price if i have to go the SVS route and get more for my money and i am sure i can get some help from this site for some plans and i would do this after i buy some subwoofers for now. It will be my project for next year once i have the time.


Just be aware that if you have never built a sub before you probably wont get anywhere near the quality or results that you want for the first couple tries. To get the quality of the SVS Im thinking it will involve more than one or two tries and then you will have spent much more.


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## rowe2424 (Nov 12, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Just be aware that if you have never built a sub before you probably wont get anywhere near the quality or results that you want for the first couple tries. To get the quality of the SVS Im thinking it will involve more than one or two tries and then you will have spent much more.


:crying: Two tries, crapping , that would be a waste but then again the experience is always good.


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Just be aware that if you have never built a sub before you probably wont get anywhere near the quality or results that you want for the first couple tries. To get the quality of the SVS Im thinking it will involve more than one or two tries and then you will have spent much more.


respectfully I disagree. if you follow someone's plans to the T then I see no reason why he couldn't achieve that. I made 3 subs for my first few subs and they all turned out flawless. It just takes time and attention to detail and following a tried and true design for a sub rather than just tossing something into Winisd


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Agreed to a point, but dont forget not many people have the proper tools to build one (for example a decent router, Table saw and clamps) so keep that cost in mind.


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## rowe2424 (Nov 12, 2009)

Mike Edwards said:


> respectfully I disagree. if you follow someone's plans to the T then I see no reason why he couldn't achieve that. I made 3 subs for my first few subs and they all turned out flawless. It just takes time and attention to detail and following a tried and true design for a sub rather than just tossing something into Winisd


This is what i thought and i am still hopping it is so, its just whom to get a design that suits my likes. If you can direct me to any threads that have designs i would be grateful Mike.


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## rowe2424 (Nov 12, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Agreed to a point, but dont forget not many people have the proper tools to build one (for example a decent router, Table saw and clamps) so keep that cost in mind.


I was not planning on doing any cutting or drilling, i planned to go with my plans to the local carpentry and pay them to do it and it is very cheap to do it as my buddy works there.


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