# How does one know when they have enough subwoofer?



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

Just your personal opinion, how does one know when they have enough sub for their room?


----------



## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

Most of our members will say that there are never enough subs

Seriously, it all depends on your expectations for low frequency extension and output. From an acoustic standpoint, more than one sub located in different places in the room will smooth out frequency response since each will excite the room's modes (resonances) differently.

Then there is the question of output. A second sub adds 6db of output, which means that you can either play them louder or have less distortion at the volume that you listen to now.

If you feel that your existing sub(s) run out of steam at your playing volume or you can hear distortion or cone noise, then one or more additional subs will help your system.

I have four Hsu ULS-15s in my system along with an older Velodyne. I did that mainly to better match the output capability of my Klipschorns along with providing flatter in-room frequency response.

Many people ask if it is better to buy one good sub instead of two or more lesser subs. Most of our members will advise to buy the best sub you can first, then plan to add another matching one if you need more output and if funds become available later on.


----------



## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

jimmy bobarino said:


> Just your personal opinion, how does one know when they have enough sub for their room?


When you are satisfied with the sound. For me it was two 18" ported subs and two 15" ported subs.


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Are you sure you don't need a couple more, Mike?


----------



## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

When you stop wondering "what if".


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I've got 4500cubic feet of space to fill and my one SVS PB13u can't fill it. I need another one :spend:


----------



## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

The demarcation line is where your friends think the system is awesome and your wife's friends think it's ridiculous. :T

For some, HT becomes an obsession and they end up spending 90% of their time and money chasing the last 10%. That's a good indication you're done, once you hit a point of diminishing returns. For each person that's different though, but ideally you want sufficient reserves to handle every dynamic swing in the soundtrack you're likely to encounter at your preferred volume level. Speakers and subwoofers will always distort before they reach their respective limits, so for the best sound quality you generally don't want to push something beyond 75% of it's capacity. Usually the audible distortion will remain under control until around that point.


----------



## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I guess there is no right answer to the question.
I have an open floor plan home and all the doors to the rooms are always open so when it comes to pressurization the sub is looking at the whole house ~15k^ft and I am satisfied with a single Outlaw LFM1+ With the primary listening position being ~12ft away.
While we can feel the sub there is no kick in the chest sensation so many people crave.
Contrast that to Tony, who has a much more capable sub than mine and he feels like 4500^ft is to much for it to handle.
Then the others that have responded have 2 - 4 monsters that make them happy.
It all depends on what you like, budget, and how many boxes you are willing to have in your room.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

theJman said:


> The demarcation line is where your friends think the system is awesome and your wife's friends think it's ridiculous. :T


:bigsmile: LOL so true :T


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

The first five posts in this thread from another forum will hopefully sum up and put in perspective, an answer for you.


----------



## Basshead81 (Apr 9, 2013)

If you have a sub system that can play reference playback cleanly then there is no need to for more bass unless you want bragging rights or permanent hearing damage.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Mike P. said:


> When you are satisfied with the sound. For me it was two 18" ported subs and two 15" ported subs.


That ain't what you told me... you said it was when your false teeth started rattling and fell out. :whistling:


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Basshead81 said:


> If you have a sub system that can play reference playback cleanly then there is no need to for more bass unless you want bragging rights or permanent hearing damage.


We have a reference capable system and have it purposely dialed back as reference is too loud for the wife and her family. As Basshead81 commented, once the system is full on reference capable, there's no need for more unless wanting bragging rights. Other than for entertainment purposes, I don't see a need for a system capable of 140dB which is as loud as a 747 on takeoff.

Once one has gone reference capable, expectedly they won't go back but being reference capable doesn't mean one plays all the movies, all the time at full on reference. To understand, reference playback is speakers at +85dB and subwoofers at +95dB with each having +20dB headroom so at peak moments, one will have clean sound but that doesn't mean one is constantly running their system with speakers at +105dB or their subwoofers at +115dB.

In my opinion, a properly dialed in subwoofer system is going give one the theater sound experience and when called for, all the the tumble, rumble and roll that draws the viewer into the movie as opposed to leaving them on the outside, looking in.


----------



## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

lcaillo said:


> Are you sure you don't need a couple more, Mike?


I just need to upgrade my amps. :bigsmile:



Sonnie said:


> That ain't what you told me... you said it was when your false teeth started rattling and fell out. :whistling:


That hasn't happened. Yet. :blink:


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> The first five posts in this thread from another forum will hopefully sum up and put in perspective, an answer for you.


Interesting thread, I had somehow missed that one. I especially found interesting his findings regarding the very near field placement. So, I had to give it a try. Moving both my subwoofers to the sides just behind the couch. This does give a much more tactile experience, even at the same volume. It would seem the way to go in a large room, rather than trying to fill the room, would be to go near field.

Unfortunately, I think this still leaves my question unsolved... It just gives me more ideas. :scratchhead:


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

I think that scoring is interesting, in a car audio who has the most perspective. I just don't really care once I get to a point where I can enjoy movies. I don't need to have the paint crack on the walls. The way I know that what I have is adequate is when I feel the bottom on a movie that needs it, but don't think about the audio system as much as the movie. If I never get the nagging feeling "that could have had more impact" I have what I need.


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

theJman said:


> For each person that's different though, but ideally you want sufficient reserves to handle every dynamic swing in the soundtrack you're likely to encounter at your preferred volume level.


This was the train of thought I was on before posting this thread. My confusion was, how do I know if I am able to handle these dynamic swings. It's kind of like how do you know what you're missing if you don't have it. Using REW, I could tell that I was starting to get compression around 60hz @ 90db(now 100db near field). The tricky part seems that music being dynamic it's hard to tell what one's preferred level is and if one is missing anything at that given level.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

For music one decent sub is usually plenty. There is hardly any frequencies below 30Hz in music. Movies is where a single sub will struggle in a larger space because many movies have lots of LFE in the 15hz range.


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> When you stop wondering "what if".


Like that's even possible. :rofl:


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

jimmy bobarino said:


> Unfortunately, I think this still leaves my question unsolved... It just gives me more ideas. :scratchhead:


First things first, the section on nearfield placement is da bomb. Placing one's subwoofers nearfield, according to his testing data, gives the user a +10dB advantage over a subwoofer placed on the other side of the room and yes, gives one the inexpensive advantage over trying to fill a large room with bass. Very nice.

As far as answers to your question, look to the ULF rating scales in the second post. Look at each person's subwoofer gear set and decide, how important it is to push the SPL in your room. The beauty of the thread, it's allows everybody who has a subwoofer thing, to get a generalized idea of how well a particular set of subwoofers will be expected to perform in a room of a given cubic footage. With the first two posts, one's able to get an idea of what's what with what regarding their room, their subwoofer system, output and reference level play in a generalized comparison to everybody else's subwoofer system. Again, very nice.

How many cubic feet are in your room? How deep do you want your subwoofer system to extend at reference level play? How many Benjamins are you ready to throw away? Are you ready to set a real budget or a miserly budget that will assure you of disappointment?

From these answers, when compared to the rating scale, one can easily see how well they can expect their budgeted choices to perform. From there, one just needs to find the money and put the order in. Myself? My thinking (fanboy) is centric to SVS, PSA and Rythmik subwoofers.

We have a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs in a 3300^3 room. From the information posted in the first couple of posts, I can get a reasonable idea of how I can expect the two subwoofers to perform. I can attest to the accuracy of the thread as two of these subwoofers, dialed in using XT32/SubEQ HT, worrying if I can "easily" raise the roof, is no longer a consideration.

...:hsd:

In my opinion, the safest bet is to put together a pair of subwoofers that are capable of giving one, clean output at reference level play, down to 12.5Hz or 10Hz as in my opinion, that's where the financial line between budget minded and expensive, separates. More than this expectation, one is going have to step up to the likes of a pair of JTR Captivator S2s, or four/five PSA XS30s and expect to spend substantially more money. It really is a real world example of Abbott and Costello's "Who's On First?"

Hope the above helps clarify this issue.


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> We have a reference capable system and have it purposely dialed back as reference is too loud for the wife and her family. As Basshead81 commented, once the system is full on reference capable, there's no need for more unless wanting bragging rights. Other than for entertainment purposes, I don't see a need for a system capable of 140dB which is as loud as a 747 on takeoff.
> 
> Once one has gone reference capable, expectedly they won't go back but being reference capable doesn't mean one plays all the movies, all the time at full on reference. To understand, reference playback is speakers at +85dB and subwoofers at +95dB with each having +20dB headroom so at peak moments, one will have clean sound but that doesn't mean one is constantly running their system with speakers at +105dB or their subwoofers at +115dB.
> 
> In my opinion, a properly dialed in subwoofer system is going give one the theater sound experience and when called for, all the the tumble, rumble and roll that draws the viewer into the movie as opposed to leaving them on the outside, looking in.


I guess this would be the point when you know you have enough, unless you like your bass crazy hot. I guess my point was what is enough below reference. As reference is not cheap or easy to achieve and I don't believe most listen at those levels anyway. Not to mention I don't believe my mains are even capable of reference level. That was my other thought on figuring out how much subwoofer one needs, was to match the capability of the mains.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

jimmy bobarino said:


> I guess my point was what is enough below reference. As reference is not cheap or easy to achieve and I don't believe most listen at those levels anyway. Not to mention I don't believe my mains are even capable of reference level. That was my other thought on figuring out how much subwoofer one needs, was to match the capability of the mains.


What does your speaker set comprise of?


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> What does your speaker set comprise of?


Original Andrew Jones set powered by Yamaha RX-V3300.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Do you have any model numbers?

Andrew Jones speakers


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

beeman458 said:


> do you have any model numbers?
> 
> andrew jones speakers


sp51-fs51-lr
sp-c21
sp-bs21-lr


----------



## workingclass (Feb 15, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> From these answers, when compared to the rating scale, one can easily see how well they can expect their budgeted choices to perform. From there, one just needs to find the money and put the order in. Myself? My thinking (fanboy) is centric to SVS, PSA and Rythmik subwoofers.
> 
> Hope the above helps clarify this issue.


I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread..BeeMan I'd add to your list Seaton Submersive2


----------



## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

> How does one know when they have enough subwoofer?


When you don't want more or think you need more, you have enough.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

The AVR and speakers have more than enough to achieve reference level play but the AVR needs to be upgraded to current technology as from what I can see, the RX-V3300, while a beast, doesn't have HDMI capability, nor does it have bass managing, room correction capability nor the ability to play DTS-HD Master.

Regarding the receiver and my above, what say you?



workingclass said:


> I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread..BeeMan I'd add to your list Seaton Submersive2


I left the likes of Seaton off my list because in my opinion, it's price/performance characteristics don't make the Seaton line a value play when compared to SVS, PSA or Rythmik. Now to be clear, that's not a knock on the Seaton line. From all I've read, those who buy Seaton products are very happy with their purchases and at GTGs, Seaton subwoofers get nothing but rave reviews.


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

When you consider powering speakers similarly, the Seaton looks like a reasonable value.


----------



## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Although the Seatons have not been submitted to anyone for third party testing, I believe they do represent as good of a value as SVS, Rythimik, HSU etc. Considering I read from an owner that their Seaton exceeded his PB13 Ultra output by 8 dB across the board, thats a pretty big performance boost for the price. Probably = if not better than dual FV15HP's if that is the case. And considering you can add a 2nd for another $1200 or so becomes a strong value for duals. Most likely a better value than any of the previously mentioned companies.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Speakers or subwoofers?

...

In post #20, I qualified my comment with this statement:

"In my opinion, the safest bet is to put together a pair of subwoofers that are capable of giving one, clean output at reference level play, down to 12.5Hz or 10Hz as in my opinion, that's where the financial line between budget minded and expensive, separates."


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> The AVR and speakers have more than enough to achieve reference level play but the AVR needs to be upgraded to current technology as from what I can see, the RX-V3300, while a beast, doesn't have HDMI capability, nor does it have bass managing, room correction capability nor the ability to play DTS-HD Master.
> 
> Regarding the receiver and my above, what say you?


My numbers come up a little short using the calculators below.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/home-theater-blog/2013/3/22/spl-calculator

As for the AVR, I haven't seen the need to "upgrade". I see no need for HDMI, it does have bass management and using the acoustic frontiers acoustical measurement standard for stereo listening rooms I have been able to meet most of the standards based on frequency response. I would need to rent/buy a Blu-ray before DTS-HD Master would become an issue. Most of my content comes from streaming services.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Oh you really are missing out on what the uncompressed audio formats offer. The dynamic range is noticeably better on most movies.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

jimmy bobarino said:


> My numbers come up a little short using the calculators below.
> 
> As for the AVR, I haven't seen the need to "upgrade". I see no need for HDMI, it does have bass management and using the acoustic frontiers acoustical measurement standard for stereo listening rooms I have been able to meet most of the standards based on frequency response. I would need to rent/buy a Blu-ray before DTS-HD Master would become an issue. Most of my content comes from streaming services.


I based my comment on the specs provided in the manual: 87dB/2.83v/1m.

And I figure at 3m or 12' with room gain of six to twelve dB.

As to the rest of your above, if you're happy with with your room response, I'm happy for you. You're not going get the same sound quality using streaming services and your dynamic range will be compressed.

When I looked at the specifications for your AVR, I didn't see any mention of bass management. DSPs but not bass management. I must have missed it's mention.


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

No worries, at this point it is just splitting hairs and not really even relevant as I never listen at those levels.

I know I'm missing out on the dynamics of the the newer formats, but the convenience of streaming wins out.

An average evening consist of 1-2 hours of Pandora, followed by 2-3 hours of streamed tv shows. The worst part is Hulu Plus only uses 2 channel sound.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Base on the above, hopefully the thread I linked to will have given you enough information to answer your question regarding knowing when one has enough subwoofage.


----------



## TheLaw612 (Jan 17, 2012)

I personally will have enough "subwoofage" when I physically can't handle it anymore. 

However, my wife and my wallet tell me I have more than enough already. Also, I'm in a townhouse right now and I get along very well with my neighbors and I don't want to ruin that...


----------



## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

When this happens..:hsd:....sell one sub


----------



## Tom V. (Jul 12, 2012)

jimmy bobarino said:


> Just your personal opinion, how does one know when they have enough sub for their room?


 This guy might qualify..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvhsbop1FHI&feature=youtu.be

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Tom V. said:


> This guy might qualify..
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvhsbop1FHI&feature=youtu.be
> 
> ...


...:rubeyes:

Those look like a pair of those really nice PSA Triax subwoofers owned by Blackmambakila. Hi Tom, nice to see you making the rounds.

...:wave:


----------



## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

I have enough. I just need another one. Wait...does that mean I don't have enough?


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> I have enough. I just need another one. Wait...does that mean I don't have enough?


Naaaah. You have enough. It's like polish, you just want to improve on what you already have.

...:whistling:


----------



## TomC1315 (Mar 18, 2014)

Copy that!


----------



## koyaan (Mar 2, 2010)

When your ears start to bleed, you've gone too far.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

koyaan said:


> When your ears start to bleed, you've gone too far.


Has this point ever been empirically verified.

...


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

I just had an article pop up on my google now feed that suddenly put all the pieces together for me on when one has enough subwoofer. 

Basically, you take the material you normally listen to and and increase the volume in steps until you notice compression on your SPL meter. If this point on the volume level is above your normal listening level, you are all good, if it is below you are going to need more subwoofer. 

My concern with this approach was how do you know what frequency is playing the loudest. I could graph test tones and see what db I was getting compression at, but I wasn't sure how this translated to music. Then I realized I could use the RTA in REW to graph the max levels and would be able to tell how loud each octave actually was and at what level of volume they begin to compress.

So shockingly, my two little pioneer SW-8 subwoofers are actually loud enough to fill my 5000+ cubic foot living room at the main listening position at my preferred volume level with about 5db to spare on average.

Now the only thing I still can't tell from this is how much extension I'm missing out on when listening to music. Below is my RTA chart for the song Think by Kaleida.


This is where I turn to you if you have REW and are willing to play. Below is the youtube link to Kaleida - Think. Please graph the song at your preferred volume on your system for comparison.
Kaleida - Think

Let me know what you think of the song as well, or if you can't stand it or have another song on youtube that you believe better shows the bass extension in music please use it. I can chart it as well, I listen to just about everything.


----------



## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

jimmy bobarino said:


> I just had an article pop up on my google now feed that suddenly put all the pieces together for me on when one has enough subwoofer.
> 
> Basically, you take the material you normally listen to and and increase the volume in steps until you notice compression on your SPL meter. If this point on the volume level is above your normal listening level, you are all good, if it is below you are going to need more subwoofer.
> 
> ...


I think you're still missing a few pieces; a pair of SW-8's couldn't even put a dent in that much space, so I think you can dismiss that method as flawed. It's really not giving you accurate information. While everyone has different wants/needs those SW-8's are leaving a lot on the table. I would love to see the look on your face if you had something like the Salk subwoofer instead.


----------



## Tin_Ears (Aug 7, 2012)

When do you know you have enough subwoofer output? When the 5-10Hz SPL your system can reproduce makes you vomit and pass out.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I agree, two 8" subs would hardly scratch the surface even if they were in a space half that size. Your missing all the frequencies below 25hz with those.


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

How about if the space is 5400cf. Will one sub Kreisel dxd 12012 fill it?
I have one and feels tight but with my space what do you think?


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

asere said:


> How about if the space is 5400cf. Will one sub Kreisel dxd 12012 fill it?
> I have one and feels tight but with my space what do you think?


It's certainly is much more capable but I would say your still a little shy. I've got just over 4500cf and my PB13u is not enough either.


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> It's certainly is much more capable but I would say your still a little shy. I've got just over 4500cf and my PB13u is not enough either.


Oh no lol! I might get a B stock KK but even B stock it's around $1600.
Gotta save.


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

theJman said:


> I think you're still missing a few pieces; a pair of SW-8's couldn't even put a dent in that much space, so I think you can dismiss that method as flawed. It's really not giving you accurate information. While everyone has different wants/needs those SW-8's are leaving a lot on the table. I would love to see the look on your face if you had something like the Salk subwoofer instead.


I was actually expecting them to compress much earlier than they did myself. I'm not fooling myself either, as you can see from the graph below, these fall off before they even hit 30hz. The thing is, I don't watch many movies, this system is mostly used for music and television. So what I am trying to figure out is, if that extension that I don't have now is even needed for music. That is why i asked for the RTA samples, plus I thought it would be interesting to see others sound profile for comparison.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

I think you need more as the roll off on the left side of the graph is a bit too graphic. The same of the right side of the graph. It's adequate but it's not the best.

What is your graph like with all speakers connected?

We're the opposite of you as we're in it for sports, broadcast television and lots of movies.


----------



## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

jimmy bobarino said:


> I was actually expecting them to compress much earlier than they did myself. I'm not fooling myself either, as you can see from the graph below, these fall off before they even hit 30hz. The thing is, I don't watch many movies, this system is mostly used for music and television. So what I am trying to figure out is, if that extension that I don't have now is even needed for music. That is why i asked for the RTA samples, plus I thought it would be interesting to see others sound profile for comparison.


I would turn the volume up 5 dB and re-sweep. Keep doing that until you notice compression(the shape of the graph does not stay the same at all frequencies). This is when you are out of headroom. If your graph looks good up to the volumes you normally listen at, I would say you are good to go for music, you are plenty low enough for that. It will still sound good on movies, obviously better than no subs, but if you want full LFE reproduction at some point, shoot for 16Hz.


----------



## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

asere said:


> How about if the space is 5400cf. Will one sub Kreisel dxd 12012 fill it?
> I have one and feels tight but with my space what do you think?


For movies, I would think two very strong ported subs would be pretty good, like the PB13Ultra, Rythmik FV15HP, or PSA XV15se. Four KK 12012 would be needed to even come close to the aforementioned duals. You likely are not getting much room gain in a space that size to assist a sealed sub with low end output.

5659/(longest room dimension in feet) = the frequency in Hz below which you can expect room gain to augment output.

So if your longest room dimension is 30', room gain will begin for you around 565/30, which = about 18Hz. From this we can surmise that any room with a longest dimension greater than about 20' will not provide a lot of gain for sealed subs to be viable for HT without LOTS of excursion and LOTS of power.


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> I think you need more as the roll off on the left side of the graph is a bit too graphic. The same of the right side of the graph. It's adequate but it's not the best.
> 
> What is your graph like with all speakers connected?
> 
> We're the opposite of you as we're in it for sports, broadcast television and lots of movies.


Here are the subs with mains.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Based on the above graphs, based on using "my two little pioneer SW-8 subwoofers" for subwoofers, you definitely would benefit upgrading your subwoofer system to a pair of 15" subwoofers.


----------



## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

asere said:


> How about if the space is 5400cf. Will one sub Kreisel dxd 12012 fill it?
> I have one and feels tight but with my space what do you think?





tonyvdb said:


> It's certainly is much more capable but I would say your still a little shy. I've got just over 4500cf and my PB13u is not enough either.


+1

Dual 12012's would make a noticeable improvement, but it may still might not be able to fully satisfy all your needs. Of course, that is highly dependent on what you're looking to achieve. If this is purely a 2 channel music rig then you'll be fine with a pair. If you watch mostly TV and movies just on occasion you'll still probably be good with a pair. If you watch a ton of movies at reference level then your room will be a bit difficult to overcome for just two.


----------



## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

jimmy bobarino said:


> I was actually expecting them to compress much earlier than they did myself. I'm not fooling myself either, as you can see from the graph below, these fall off before they even hit 30hz. The thing is, I don't watch many movies, this system is mostly used for music and television. So what I am trying to figure out is, if that extension that I don't have now is even needed for music. That is why i asked for the RTA samples, plus I thought it would be interesting to see others sound profile for comparison.


To steal a metaphor... perception is 9/10th's of reality, so if you're satisfied with them then perhaps that's all you really need. I was only half kidding though when I said I would love to see the look on your face if you dropped a really powerful subwoofer in that room. I think you'd be alarmed by how much you're missing now.

Note that it isn't just the frequency response you need to consider, it's the output as well. Your graphs indicate solid output to about 75dB. That's really very quiet in the grand scheme of things, which indicates to me you have little to no reserve for dynamic swings. Depending upon the type of music you listen to a subwoofer that runs out of steam by 30Hz may not suffice. I know the type I enjoy has strong content into the 20's, all of which would be rendered mute by the SW-8's.


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

I think I caused some confusion with the graphs, the 75db was just used to not disturb the cat. So I figured I'd go ahead and run some max level graphs to show when the compression is occurring, but then I noticed the bump at 60hz which seems to be caused by the front left corner. Even when the mains are crossed at 90hz the front left will still have a bump at 60hz. This got me thinking, why fight it. What happens if I run the fronts large and let them help take some load off of the subs, since they seem to be maxing out in the low to mid 90db range for the frequency range they can actually produce. Plus it seems like a lot of music has a lot going on in the 60hz range anyway.

So this is where it starts to get interesting. I find that running the mains large they are about 5db stronger at the same volume at 60hz and don't begin to compress until about 105db. Sure they drop off like a rock below that, but they seem to do so cleanly. Looks like I found myself some headroom. So I figured I would see how this translates to music. I replay Kaleida - Think at a volume of -35 vs the previous -30 and am now hitting almost 100db at 60hz vs 95db, meaning I just picked up 10db in that range. What was surprising to me was I thought this would sound very bass heavy, but it didn't. 

I think the only way to find out what I'm truly missing is to take advantage of SVS's trial program and 
experience it first hand.

Graphs to follow below, because who doesn't enjoy a graph.


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

This is the subs with small mains.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

That is an excellent idea! I think you'll be very surprised. ...and pleased.


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

Now here something interesting happens. On the loudest sweep it appears the subs are compressing heavily and just can't keep up. But you'll see on the next graph with Bass Extension on they seem to be able to give a little more.


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

Now this is with bass extension on, which gives it a +6db boost around 60hz and then cuts some below that.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

If I understand your graphs right it looks like 40hz where they start to roll off. I'd venture to say that's from the high pass filter, to protect the driver, and about where the cabinet is tuned, so that's why the steep decline below there too. I'm not sure how to interpret compression exactly, but if I'm close, it looks like when you start pushing them, 40 is clipped harder. By design I'm sure. As far as the bump at 60, I'd be happy to see that knocked down. I'm not sure of your music preferences but there is a lot going on at least down to 30, and plenty of music with content that's lower. I think a bump at 60 would be annoying and boomy. Linearity in low frequencies is awesome when you experience it. It's exactly the reason for SVSs success. (And the other sub guys too!) I think you actually gave the best advice so far to call SVS!


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

The ten dB hump tell me you're not getting even bass.

What willis7469 posted.

By going large, you're getting double bass and you're getting bass through your mains and the LFE channel. One wants all the <80Hz going through the LFE channel so location issues are not an issue.

Use the Spectrogram feature. In color, it will graphically expose what's being shared above. Unfortunately, the graph tells me you're creating a one bass note system where the 50Hz to 70Hz frequencies are going override the rest of your bass because they're twice as loud as the rest of the graph.


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> If I understand your graphs right it looks like 40hz where they start to roll off. I'd venture to say that's from the high pass filter, to protect the driver, and about where the cabinet is tuned, so that's why the steep decline below there too. I'm not sure how to interpret compression exactly, but if I'm close, it looks like when you start pushing them, 40 is clipped harder. By design I'm sure. As far as the bump at 60, I'd be happy to see that knocked down. I'm not sure of your music preferences but there is a lot going on at least down to 30, and plenty of music with content that's lower. I think a bump at 60 would be annoying and boomy. Linearity in low frequencies is awesome when you experience it. It's exactly the reason for SVSs success. (And the other sub guys too!) I think you actually gave the best advice so far to call SVS!


All the graphs above are with subs on, although it may not look like it.  

As for the bump, I would agree, it was more of an experiment to see what the capabilities were. I was actually surprised the mains did as well as they did on their own.

Below is the mains with no subs.


----------



## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Again, as it seemed to get glossed over and then stated incorrectly by another, there is very little in music below 40 Hz. Unless you are listening to pipe organ music, or exceptionally low electronica(most of even this is over 40Hz), 99%+ of the time, you are not missing anything with music if you are solid to 40 Hz. If you are listening loud enough to start to see compression, upgrading subs will be helpful.  Bigger and better subs will also likely reduce distortion, and filling in the bottom end below 40 Hz for the rare pieces that dig that low might be beneficial. Then there is the issue of movies. If you occasionally watch an action film, do you want to experience what is there, or miss half of it? I demo'd WoTW pod scene for a friend who had seen the movie before and thought Bose was high end. He sat there with his jaw on the floor the whole time..said he felt like he was watching a new movie he had never seen before.


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

That scene will definitely let you know if you've got a decent subwoofer. If memory serves me correctly that movie was the demise for my Klipsch rw-12d and ushered in was my SVS.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> ...that movie was the demise for my Klipsch rw-12d and ushered in was my SVS.


Aaaaah, the death of the much vaunted RW-12D. 

(we upgraded from three RW-12Ds)


----------



## Tin_Ears (Aug 7, 2012)

Did you try testing with the port(s) plugged?


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> Aaaaah, the death of the much vaunted RW-12D.  (we upgraded from three RW-12Ds)


That was before I took the time to educate myself on real subs. The cerametalic woofers did match my reference series speakers nicely but the port chuffing drove me CRAZY!


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> That was before I took the time to educate myself on real subs.


And it was an expensive education indeed.  And once one arrives, there's no going back.

I thought our RW-12Ds were totally cool. And then I read about better.


----------



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> And it was an expensive education indeed.  And once one arrives, there's no going back. I thought our RW-12Ds were totally cool. And then I read about better.


Exactly what I did as well as discover HTS. Internet!


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> Internet!


Funny thing about this thing called "Internet"; the internet saves you money, all-the-while helping encourage you spend your money.

(yeah, but look at all the money I saved)

...


----------



## jimmy bobarino (Mar 13, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> By going large, you're getting double bass and you're getting bass through your mains and the LFE channel. One wants all the <80Hz going through the LFE channel so location issues are not an issue.


Can you explain this further?


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

jimmy bobarino said:


> Can you explain this further?


You're getting bass through your mains and the LFE channel.

The rule of thumb is, all speakers set to small, the speakers crossovers set to 80Hz and the LFE channel set to 120Hz.


----------



## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

BeeMan458 said:


> And it was an expensive education indeed.  And once one arrives, there's no going back.
> 
> I thought our RW-12Ds were totally cool. And then I read about better.


I agree. The RW-12s make a lot of sound, but it is not very accurate. I have them in two systems - one in a downstairs den and one in the master bedroom. I bought them when Newegg had them on sale for $299. Not bad for that price.

The HT has 4 Hsu ULS-15s which I like a lot. As my wife and I get older we watch more TV in the bedroom. So, I have on order another ULS-15 for use in the bedroom system - should be here this Friday according to tracking number. That should tighten up the bass a lot. And I agree about the comment on port chuffing.

Going back to the original question... How many subs you need depends on primarily one thing and that is how loud you want to play your system. I have very high efficiency mains (Klipschorns) and the 4 ULS-15s do a nice job of matching their output capability.

Secondary in the question of how many subs is smoothing of freq response by adding more subs. A lot has been written about that already.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

hjones4841 said:


> Secondary in the question of how many subs is smoothing of freq response by adding more subs. A lot has been written about that already.


Oh sure, ducks the easy questions. 

...


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

My sub does an excellent job with a 5500cf room. Maybe because I watch movies at moderate levels like around -15 to -25 however, I am always curious to find out how a second sub would sound loud or not


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

asere said:


> My sub does an excellent job with a 5500cf room. Maybe because I watch movies at moderate levels like around -15 to -25 however, I am always curious to find out how a second sub would sound loud or not


To not have a second subwoofer in a room that size, is to deny yourself the benefit of subwoofers. You'll never know how much you're missing until you dial a second subwoofer into the acoustics of the room.

Additional subs smooth response but any increase in SPL is done on the backside of the equation as in, it lets one turn it up louder but does nothing but smooth modes at lower volume.

Do you have a freeware copy of REW installed an operating so you can measure and display the acoustics in your room. If not, you're flying in the blind as to sound quality. Just saying, nobody can EQ by ear. Just saying again, nobody can tell how good their system is or isn't without room measuring capability. And if you have REW, you know this and if that is the case, ignore my above as your already know all of what I'm posting.


----------



## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

For me, the answer is going to be when my dual PSA XV15se's arrive and get placed into our main living room. No dedicated theater so dual Captivators is not an option 

However, I do see a Buttkicker being added to get some extra shake and rumble for times when the volume must be kept low. My whole house shakes watching movies at -15.


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> To not have a second subwoofer in a room that size, is to deny yourself the benefit of subwoofers. You'll never know how much you're missing until you dial a second subwoofer into the acoustics of the room.
> 
> Additional subs smooth response but any increase in SPL is done on the backside of the equation as in, it lets one turn it up louder but does nothing but smooth modes at lower volume.
> 
> Do you have a freeware copy of REW installed an operating so you can measure and display the acoustics in your room. If not, you're flying in the blind as to sound quality. Just saying, nobody can EQ by ear. Just saying again, nobody can tell how good their system is or isn't without room measuring capability. And if you have REW, you know this and if that is the case, ignore my above as your already know all of what I'm posting.


I have REW installed and have read on how to use it but seems complicated. It asks for a video card that I am not sure my PC has and I definitely do not know how to read the graphs.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

asere said:


> I have REW installed and have read on how to use it but seems complicated. It asks for a video card that I am not sure my PC has and I definitely do not know how to read the graphs.


Getting up and running is a "BIG" pain but once up and running, it's all point-n-click. As to what it's asking about, it's asking about your sound card so REW can calibrate the card.






Stop by the REW forum.

I've not been there but I'm know those who hangout, will be more than happy to give you step-by-step instructions on how to get up and running and will be just as happy to help you with follow-on question. That's half the fun of these forums, all the helpful people.

Once up and running, reading the graphs will become easy.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> My whole house shakes watching movies at -15.


......:T...:bigsmile:

(gee, I wish our house would shake)

...


----------



## charlieblue (Aug 17, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> Do you have a *freeware *copy of REW i


? 

is there a non freeware version, that I am not aware off?

or do you have (inside ?) info for what's to come?


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> Getting up and running is a "BIG" pain but once up and running, it's all point-n-click. As to what it's asking about, it's asking about your sound card so REW can calibrate the card.
> 
> This YouTube video may be found to be helpful.
> 
> ...


Wow! I just saw the video. It is very informative thank you!
It does get complicated when it talks about the graphs. I will definitely be asking questions when its time to do it.
I will also start with my SPL meter for the mic since I do not want to spend more money on a Beringher mic in case REW gets too crazy for me to continue.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

charlieblue said:


> ?
> 
> is there a non freeware version, that I am not aware off?
> 
> or do you have (inside ?) info for what's to come?


Now it's my turn to be confused. My understanding, freeware is a generic term for software that one can download and install for no charge: free software or freeware.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

asere said:


> I will also start with my SPL meter for the mic since I do not want to spend more money on a Beringher mic in case REW gets too crazy for me to continue.


The measuring microphone is good to 5Hz and 10Hz where as the sound meter is guaranteed to 30Hz.

I can assure you, getting past the first couple of steps will be monumental as there's nothing intuitive about the setup. Huge pain. I'm being honest. But once you're past the calibration stage, forever, it's all point-n-click.

As to the graphs, it's the same thing. Once past the newness of it all, they're a piece of cake to read and understand.


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> The measuring microphone is good to 5Hz and 10Hz where as the sound meter is guaranteed to 30Hz.
> 
> I can assure you, getting past the first couple of steps will be monumental as there's nothing intuitive about the setup. Huge pain. I'm being honest. But once you're past the calibration stage, forever, it's all point-n-click.
> 
> As to the graphs, it's the same thing. Once past the newness of it all, they're a piece of cake to read and understand.


Thanks once again. I'll do my best lol!


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I agree bee. The learning curve is steep but once you get it, it's pretty simple. I've only done about 2dozen sweeps, and like you, I used my RS spl meter, with the calibration file loaded. This makes a difference to be sure, however, it's not the same IMO as a calibrated mic. I did this about the same time I bought a behringer 1124 to EQ my subs. Then I saw somebody talkin about minidsp, and a umik. Sold! Now I'm trying to sell the 1124, and some odds N ends to finance. Rew is the best, and it's free. That makes it the 
best-est!


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

...^...

As long as up front, you know it's going be frustrating, you'll do fine. Once past the initialization phase and you get to the point-n-click phase, for the next month or three, REW is going become your best home theater toy because it's going provide you with a boatload of fun times. You might even enter the delusional phase where you convince yourself you know what you're doing.

...


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Rofl
I've been in that phase for a long time! ...oh wait, that's somethin else.


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Bear123 said:


> For me, the answer is going to be when my dual PSA XV15se's arrive and get placed into our main living room. No dedicated theater so dual Captivators is not an option
> 
> However, I do see a Buttkicker being added to get some extra shake and rumble for times when the volume must be kept low. My whole house shakes watching movies at -15.


I would get a	buttkicker but I would have visible wires from system to the couch.
That won't be very practical in a family room with kids.


----------



## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

asere said:


> I would get a	buttkicker but I would have visible wires from system to the couch.
> That won't be very practical in a family room with kids.


No way to route underneath? If not, they make wireless kits(although you still have to have access to power)

http://www.parts-express.com/buttki...w-amplifier-cables-and-mounting-kit--300-9441


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Bear123 said:


> No way to route underneath? If not, they make wireless kits(although you still have to have access to power)
> 
> http://www.parts-express.com/buttkicker-bk-kit-4-wireless-transducer-kit-with-300w-amplifier-cables-and-mounting-kit--300-9441


Thanks for the link. I could route underneath since I have carpet but soon going to get wood or tile so why bother.


----------



## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

No basement then?


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Bear123 said:


> No basement then?


No basement :-(


----------



## charlieblue (Aug 17, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> .
> .
> 
> Do you have a freeware copy of REW installed ...





BeeMan458 said:


> Now it's my turn to be confused. My understanding, freeware is a generic term for software that one can download and install for no charge: free software or freeware.


Yes, talking about REW, freeware is what comes to mind...
That's why I was puzzled to read you specifying "freeware copy", I read it as if some other type existed.. Obviously not, :whew: 
But then again, with the changes going on at HTS, one may wonder.. Anyhow, no harm in asking, right ?


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

charlieblue said:


> Yes, talking about REW, freeware is what comes to mind...
> That's why I was puzzled to read you specifying "freeware copy", I read it as if some other type existed.. Obviously not, :whew:
> But then again, with the changes going on at HTS, one may wonder.. Anyhow, no harm in asking, right ?


I mention "freeware" as many people aren't aware of REW's existence in cyberspace and to encourage them to look into REW, I mention that it's "freeware."


----------



## charlieblue (Aug 17, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> I mention "freeware" as many people aren't aware of REW's existence in cyberspace and *to encourage them to look into REW*, I mention that it's "freeware."


Got it! :T


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

chashint said:


> I guess there is no right answer to the question.
> I have an open floor plan home and all the doors to the rooms are always open so when it comes to pressurization the sub is looking at the whole house ~15k^ft and I am satisfied with a single Outlaw LFM1+ With the primary listening position being ~12ft away.
> While we can feel the sub there is no kick in the chest sensation so many people crave.


Yeah here I am saying I have around 5500 cf of space but I also need to consider openings to other areas of the house where the sub waves travel like to my former living area and hallway to other rooms.
Since I don't have a dedicated room maybe two subs won't cut it.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

asere said:


> Yeah here I am saying I have around 5500 cf of space but I also need to consider openings to other areas of the house where the sub waves travel like to my former living area and hallway to other rooms. Since I don't have a dedicated room maybe two subs won't cut it.


If you set them up right, you can get good results. My L/R, kitchen area is about 7200cuft, plus a foyer/workspace of about 14x22 that has a 12' opening into it. It took a lot of fussing, but it's pretty good now and will definitely shake your guys on the couch. I'm also currently working on financing minidsp/umik. And maybe 2 more sono builds. 1/2 for peace of mind(headroom) and 1/2 for performance. (More gut rattle). Fwiw, the only buttkicker I'd consider, resides in my garage. 
Two subs might not do it for you but, they just might.


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

How about if your sub has two 12 inch drivers. Can that be considered having 2 subs ;-)


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

asere said:


> How about if your sub has two 12 inch drivers. Can that be considered having 2 subs ;-)


Works for me! My mains have 12s in em. What should I call that?


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> Works for me! My mains have 12s in em. What should I call that?


Call it awesome!


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

asere said:


> Call it awesome!


I will take that!


----------



## rrskda (Apr 22, 2014)

For me I'm going to bet that "enough" is an ever increasing variable, satisfied briefly by a new shiny sub, its seemingly great performance soon becoming merely adequate. I only hope that by the time that happens I've got the funds to satiate the hunger for more...


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Just saying, if one buys a pair of reference capable subwoofers a few attitudes would change.

We watched "Hannah" last night. It's not a movie you'd expect to challenge your subwoofers. I've never had a sound track challenge our subs the way this sound track challenged our pair of subwoofers.

In response to the philosophical question; when your subwoofer system is challenged and you can't afford anymore. We would have to step up to a pair of JTR Captivator S2s to best what we have and our budget won't support this sort of bass heavy luxury. So, based on my above, we know that we have enough subwoofer.


----------



## Basshead81 (Apr 9, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> Just saying, if one buys a pair of reference capable subwoofers a few attitudes would change.
> 
> We watched "Hannah" last night. It's not a movie you'd expect to challenge your subwoofers. I've never had a sound track challenge our subs the way this sound track challenged our pair of subwoofers.
> 
> In response to the philosophical question; when your subwoofer system is challenged and you can't afford anymore. We would have to step up to a pair of JTR Captivator S2s to best what we have and our budget won't support this sort of bass heavy luxury. So, based on my above, we know that we have enough subwoofer.


Hey Bee you can build a Pair of 18's using the UXL-18 driver. Double Wing sold his S2 to fund 4 UXL-18's in flat pack sealed enclosures. He said 2 of them had 2-3db more output then a S2and sound quality was on par. I am guessing you could build a pair with a high end amp (IPR 7500) for less then dual FV15HP's. That would be the only way to upgrade from the Rythmiks without getting at the S2 price point. However I am betting dual FV15HP's are serving you well.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Basshead81 said:


> Hey


Hey. 



> Bee you can build a Pair of 18's using the UXL-18 driver. Double Wing sold his S2 to fund 4 UXL-18's in flat pack sealed enclosures. He said 2 of them had 2-3db more output then a S2and sound quality was on par. I am guessing you could build a pair with a high end amp (IPR 7500) for less then dual FV15HP's. That would be the only way to upgrade from the Rythmiks without getting at the S2 price point.


Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not going upgrade to S2s. To improve on the FV15HPs, that's what I'd have to go to but we don't use all the FV15HPs are capable of. And yes, absolutely, the FV15HPs are serving us very well. My days of building anything, other than repairs around the house, are over. My idea of DIY, is tightening the handle on the bathroom faucet with a philips head screwdriver. In my younger days, I replaced water heaters on a professional basis. Our water heater needs to be replaced and I'm sure the plumbing company will do an excellent job.


----------



## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

This might not be the best place to ask but if I'm after getting flat performance to 16Hz in a music only system to a MAX of 95db (I really only listen at 75-85db's). How many Rythmik F12's would I need for my 1900 cubed sealed room (13'x16'x10'feet)?


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

The answer is always two.

Two lesser subs perform better than one better sub, a scale higher. So the answer is, two F12s.

And to help you see the acoustics of your room and better help you integrate your new subwoofers into your sound room, if you haven't already, download and install a freeware copy of REW.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

BeeMan458 said:


> The answer is always two.
> 
> Two lessor subs perform better than one better sub, a scale higher.


Incorrect, you will gain nothing below the lesser subs frequency response no matter how many of those subs you put in a room. So if the one better sub has a frequency response of 10-140Hz and two lesser subs are rated at 23-140Hz you still only have 23-140Hz just at a higher db output in that frequency range. One better sub placed correctly is always better particularly if your looking for deep extension down into the 10 to 15Hz range.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

+1 especially in that small space. ...exception possibly being smoother response.


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Incorrect, you will gain nothing below the lesser subs frequency response no matter how many of those subs you put in a room. So if the one better sub has a frequency response of 10-140Hz and two lesser subs are rated at 23-140Hz you still only have 23-140Hz just at a higher db output in that frequency range. One better sub placed correctly is always better particularly if your looking for deep extension down into the 10 to 15Hz range.


Yeah it makes perfect sense.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> +1 especially in that small space. ...exception possibly being smoother response.


It doesn't matter, small space or large. It's about smoothing room modes and in my personal experience and that of many here, a room comes alive with the addition of a second subwoofer and no single subwoofer can match this experience.



asere said:


> Yeah it makes perfect sense.


Sure it would but if you reread what I posted, that's not what I posted. I'd be a total ignorant to post what was agreed on. It sure would help if people took the time to read and comprehend what I post before responding and when they do respond, respond within the context of what I posted.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> It doesn't matter, small space or large. It's about smoothing room modes and in my personal experience and that of many here, a room comes alive with the addition of a second subwoofer and no single subwoofer can match this experience. Sure it would but if you reread what I posted, that's not what I posted. I'd be a total ignorant to post what was agreed on. It sure would help if people took the time to read and comprehend what I post before responding and when they do respond, respond within the context of what I posted.


well bee, this is a little tricky. You are right about two subs smoothing response, and the room coming alive. I've also experienced both of these phenomena. But tony is also right about a single more capable sub digging deeper. Even 16 subs in that room that roll off at 25hz(arbitrary) won't dig deeper than one of the same. My comment about size was to try and point out that if he needs the buy one now, one later plan, he'll be fairly satisfied,as opposed to of he were in a 9,000cuft cavern. don't know if I ever saw his budget but if I had X dollars, I'd go for the most capable, with the hope of a 2nd in the future. So I'd say it'll depend on money vs extension.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> But tony is also right about a single more capable sub digging deeper.


The flaw, that's not what I posted. Please reread what I posted and you'll see I purposefully added limiters to my comments. It hard to have a rational conversation with folks when they are intentionally responding to something I didn't post.

As to budget, this is the question I responded to: "How many Rythmik F12's would I need for my 1900 cubed sealed room (13'x16'x10'feet)?"

Unequivocally, I stand by my comment; two; always two.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Two lessor subs perform better than one better sub, a scale higher. 
Is this what you're referring to?
I apologize if it seems I'm coming at you, but I am not following this statement.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Two lesser subs perform better than one better sub, a scale higher.
> Is this what you're referring to?
> I apologize if it seems I'm coming at you, but I am not following this statement.


What I'm failing to communicate, two lesser subs will perform better than a single subwoofer, a single class higher. And, always buy subs with the attitude that in the end, one expects to have two, not a single subwoofer system. It's not about budget, affordability or output but instead, is about quality or evenness of output.

If someone buys a single large subwoofer that puts the possibility of a second subwoofer outside their budget capabilities, then they've harmed the quality of the output of their subwoofer system but if they pull back and purchase a single subwoofer, that's a single class lower, with a near term eye on a second one, then in doing so, they'll have raised the quality level of the output of their subwoofer system. And if they take the time to download, install and get a freeware copy or REW up and running to help dial their system in, they'll get an even better sounding subwoofer system.

As an example, I'd rather see a person buy two SVS PB-2000 subs than a single PB12-Plus subwoofer. I'd rather see one buy two PSA XV15se than a single XV15Fse. More money, better quality subwoofer output.

Two lesser subs vs one better sub.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> What I'm failing to communicate, two lessor subs will perform better than a single subwoofer, a single class higher. And, always buy subs with the attitude that in the end, one expects to have two, not a single subwoofer system. It's not about budget, affordability or output but instead, is about quality or evenness of output. If someone buys a single large subwoofer that puts the possibility of a second subwoofer outside their budget capabilities, then they've harmed the quality of the output of their subwoofer system but if they pull back and purchase a single subwoofer, that's a single class lower, with a near term eye on a second one, then in doing so, they'll have raised the quality level of the output of their subwoofer system. And if they take the time to download, install and get a freeware copy or REW up and running to help dial their system in, they'll get an even better sounding subwoofer system. As an example, I'd rather see a person buy two SVS PB-2000 subs than a single PB12-Plus subwoofer. I'd rather see one buy two PSA XV15se than a single XV15Fse. More money, better quality subwoofer output. Two lessor subs vs one better sub.


Well my friend, this might be where we agree to disagree. IMO, by purchasing a lesser sub with the hopes of a second lesser sub, what they'll have in the end is buyers remorse. A second sub doesn't contribute that much to overall output as much as it does a smooth graph. I feel like 2 pb2000's vs a single plus could almost be a wash(output wise). By more capable, I was thinking of something that separates farther, like an ultra cylinder vs 2 pb200's. I'm also thinking of a more typical layout, as opposed to the second one(like in your case) immediately behind the couch. (Full particle velocity) I don't think too many rooms/WAFs work with that.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Well my friend, this might be where we agree to disagree.


I was giving a response to a recommendation and in our case, was responding to your request for a clarification.

As to adding to output, absolutely output is unequivocally and synergistically added to as a second sub adds +6dB through co-location and depending on placement, can add an additional +3dB for a second corner location and tests have shown as well as a second sub will support the left side of a graph and improve on cabin gain, which will improve depth of extension. A nearfield placed sub adds +10dB worth of tactile feel. As I'm sure you know, a second subwoofer is more than a pretty face.

In my comments, I do try to place limiters so as to prevent any misunderstandings but being such a poor wordsmith, much of the intent of my comments is missed.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> I was giving a response to a recommendation and in our case, was responding to your request for a clarification.


Understood. Thanx!
I think we just have different opinions about this situation, is all.


----------



## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> I'm also thinking of a more typical layout, as opposed to the second one(like in your case) immediately behind the couch. (Full particle velocity) I don't think too many rooms/WAFs work with that.


Well......gee wiz Wally...

...:bigsmile:

As to disagreements of opinion, the good news, nobody has to agree with anybody in order to get along.

...:T


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> Well......gee wiz Wally... ...:bigsmile: As to disagreements of opinion, the good news, nobody has to agree with anybody in order to get along. ...:T


Indeed!


----------



## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Blacklightning said:


> This might not be the best place to ask but if I'm after getting flat performance to 16Hz in a music only system to a MAX of 95db (I really only listen at 75-85db's). How many Rythmik F12's would I need for my 1900 cubed sealed room (13'x16'x10'feet)?


Since your question diverges from the intent of this particular thread it would be best to start a new one specific to your situation. That will ensure all the answers are relevant to your needs. And I promise to police it so there's no more fisticuffs...


----------



## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

theJman said:


> Since your question diverges from the intent of this particular thread it would be best to start a new one specific to your situation. That will ensure all the answers are relevant to your needs. And I promise to police it so there's no more fisticuffs...


I'll do that went I'm close to buying. I just like being reassured over and over again that my future Sub choice is the correct one.


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Good idea.


----------

