# Inwall/onwall/inceiling speaker advice



## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

Hello,

We are planning to upgrade our HT equipment to 7.1 as part of a larger project. I'm looking for advice on inwall/onwall/inceiling speakers to replace our current speakers. I have about $5000 to spend, but my wife already said yes to 2 SVS PB13 Ultras so I'm not looking back. The rest of the budget is for the other speakers. These are some of the brands that local dealers carry: B&W, Klipsch, KEF, Energy, Paradigm. I've also looked at Def Tech, Axiom, and Infinity. The more I look, the more confused I am about quality and value.

My current set up is:
Infinity Beta 20 (LF & RF)
Infinity Beta C360 (C)
Infinity Beta ES250 (LR, CR, RR)
Infinity CWS 10 Sub (x2)
Sony STR-DA5ES
Sony HS-50?? Projector
Draper 100" FP screen
Sony PS3
Sony Directv HD Receiver
Monster HTS-2600 power center

Is there enough in my budget to build a good inwall/onwall/inceiling system? If I only went with 1 PB13 for now, and increased the speaker budget accordingly, would it make a big enough difference in speaker quality/value?

Here are pictures of the space. Thanks for your thoughts in advance.

kjl


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

We may be able to offer more help if we understood what you consider are the shortcomings of your present speaker setup and what you're trying to achieve by upgrading. Is the upgrade being driven by ascetics? I'm thinking the prescence of two honking big PB13's is going to pretty much overshadow any other appearance considerations.

My research led me to conclude that you pay a huge engineering surcharge for inwalls. In other words, because of the limitations imposed, you have to pay 2x-3x more for the same performance level in inwalls compared to more traditional enclosures. 

Doug


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

It is always better to avoid in wall/ceiling speakers due to the natural characteristics of in-walls. Placement become a huge deal where standard speakers are far more forgiving and usually sound better in the end even if you do it right with the in-walls.
As Doug mentioned getting two PB13's will be hard to miss so you would be better off with proper traditional speakers.


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

The reason for the change is aesthetics. We want a cleaner front wall so we are placing the components in a to be built in wall cabinet on the right wall (as you face the screen) and looking at inwall speakers. Honestly, I had not thought of just moving the components and leaving the speakers until now.? I actually really like my speaker set up except for the rear soundfield depth and the bass. I put our current system together by reading mags and online information. I want to do the same for this upgrade/change, but the price of "good inwalls with integrated backs and so on and so forth" has me hesistant to proceed and curious about alternatives.

As you look at the photo of the projector and rear speakers, we added the mounting soffitt to the original basement plan for my ES250s'. Its not structural and can be removed. I thought we could go with in ceiling speakers for the four surround channels. I also thought moving the rear centers back would improve the depth. It just occurred to me that without the components in front, we could move the couch a bit closer to the screen and improve rear depth.?

The theater area is 12 x 18 but the room is quite large at ~6500 cubic feet and the stairs are open to the floor above. Even though my Infinity subs seem strong, I know I'm missing "something" that folks on these pages describe in their HT experiences. I hope the Ultra can help with my feelings of inadequacy. My wife likes the rosenut and I've failed to mention posts from others that the Ultra is bigger than it looks:whistling:. Going to have to discuss that. Should I be posting the sub stuff in the sub area? Is there a way to post to both?

I hope I haven't written too much, but I want to be thorough because I really appreciate your thoughts. I like the ideas that have surfaced just by responding to your questions. For instance, maybe I do nothing but move the components and couch and add the Ultras???

Thanks again.

kjl


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

Hi Tony,

How do you get your system components to show in your posts? I listed them in my profile but I don't see how to display them.

Thanks,

kjl


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

kjlewie said:


> Hi Tony,
> 
> How do you get your system components to show in your posts? I listed them in my profile but I don't see how to display them.
> 
> ...


Hi,
you need to go into the "user CP" tab at the top of the web page and select the "edit signature" box. That will give you access to what you want. 
If memory serves me you have to have 10 posts before you can add a signature.


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

kjlewie said:


> The reason for the change is aesthetics. We want a cleaner front wall so we are placing the components in a to be built in wall cabinet on the right wall (as you face the screen) and looking at inwall speakers.
> 
> The theater area is 12 x 18 but the room is quite large at ~6500 cubic feet and the stairs are open to the floor above. Even though my Infinity subs seem strong, I know I'm missing "something" that folks on these pages describe in their HT experiences. I hope the Ultra can help with my feelings of inadequacy.
> 
> ...


Have you considered an AT Screen? You can buy the material for you size screen for ~$150 from Seymour (http://centerstagescreens.com/screens.asp) and build the frame. You could send off for a sample of the material to see if it would suit you with your projector. That would solve your clean front wall objective. 

Even with the size of your room, I think the Ultra will fill the bill, especially if you spring for two! I've got a PB12-NSD waiting to go into our dedicated HT. In the meantime, it's hanging out upstairs in a space roughly double your size. We were watching "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly" (great movie) last night. There are some scenes with some deep bass heartbeats. Even at moderate levels, it was rattling the spoons in the old spoon display case 20 feet away!

Doug


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## PT800 (Feb 19, 2008)

If you're happy with your Infinitys, then stay with those.
Keep away from in-ceiling speakers. There are good in-wall, but they are not cheap.
Adding a better sub will be the best solution.
One thing to improve your surrounds, would be mounting the L/R surrounds on the side walls and leaving the middle where it is. Like you have said, you can move the seating forward after you put the gear in the closet. So then you mount the side surrounds in line with the seating.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

I also think you'll have to compromise sound to get the hidden speaker aesthetic in your room. It looks like you have a great setup now, and to switch to an in wall front stage you'd only be gaining a tiny bit of room back. Will the new component cabinet be built into the wall as well? Otherwise, if you still have something out front, you may as well keep the speakers out in the open where they'll sound better. I can see moving to in wall or ceiling surrounds, because they aren't as critical (IMHO), but you'll still have a different sound than you have now, with the soffit (that I like actually).


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Have you considered Magnepan MC1 or the soon to be released MC2? I love mine but I would recommend auditioning a pair before buying because they do have a unique flavor. :bigsmile:

As far as a sub options you could always build a hidden LLT or an IB.

Matt

Matt


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

Doug,

I haven't considered an AT screen seriously because the one time that I mentioned it, my wife's response was, "so now we need a new screen and new speakers!?" Actually, I'm really warming to the idea of moving the components in wall and leaving the speakers, possibly mounting the center channel below the screen, to clean up the front wall.

I'd like to see pics of your HT when its finished.


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

PT800,

I plan to follow the advice here and make less radical/costly changes to a pretty good system. Moving the components, couch and adding Ultras are my basic plan now. I may play with the L & R surround locations. But, the side wall for the RS is about six feet further than the side wall for the LS. How big of a problem, if any, could this potentially be?

Why do you say "adding a better sub will be the best solution"?

Thanks for the help.


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

Owen,

Thanks for complement on the current setup. The new component cabinet will be built in to the right wall (when facing the screen). The DVD baskets and PS3 will be moved as well, leaving only the speakers up front. Seems like that would clean up the front without the costliness (sound quality and price) of in walls.

I tried to access your HT page, but was unsuccessful. I'd like to see it when its working.

Thanks for the help.


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

Matt,

Just took a look at the Magnepan website. I remember the S&V article about the MC1. They seem like awesome speakers but are out of my range.

What is an LLT?

Thanks for the help.


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

kjlewie said:


> Doug,
> 
> I'd like to see pics of your HT when its finished.


Here's some work in progress photos: http://picasaweb.google.com/dougbrucemac/HomeTheater

I'm further along, but my camera is at the Canon repair center. Framing is finished. Wiring will be finished tonight. I've gotten one estimate for drywall, but it was a joke ($4k for two rooms! :coocoo. I'm waiting for another estimate from a guy who came by last night. My wife has gone from "There's no way in **** we'll drywall" to "How long do you think it will take?"

I'd like to be in the theater by July 4th.

Doug


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

Awesome looking theater/bar - 12 foot ceilings in the basement - very nice. The AT screen looks great. Can't wait to see the finished product. I am glad I got to see the intermediate pics though, becaue they led to a few questions.

Would you describe the in wall component space in a little more detail? How many components are you building for and what will the finished product look like (front and back and internal dimensions)? I plan to built the same thing but my current design is a little aggressive for my skill level and needs. Initially, I planned to build a side by side cabinet with enough slots for 8 components and four DVD drawers below (apprx 4' x 4'). I dropped the drawers from the plan as out of my league and, similar to your dry wall bid, too expensive from the pros. I like what you have framed and I know I can build it.

What are your room dimensions? It looks fully enclosed. Is this necessary to achieve ref level "pressurized" bass? Not sure of the correct terms here.

What kind of gear will you use?

kjl


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

Very nice HT and DIY sub. What size in the driver? How much does the sub weight?


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

kjlewie said:


> Owen,
> 
> Thanks for complement on the current setup. The new component cabinet will be built in to the right wall (when facing the screen). The DVD baskets and PS3 will be moved as well, leaving only the speakers up front. Seems like that would clean up the front without the costliness (sound quality and price) of in walls.
> 
> ...


kjlewie, it sounds like you're going to have a very nice, clean arrangement after. I know you have to keep your wife's opinions in consideration as well, but I really lke having the speakers up front and visible, and I think they can look even better in a setup like your future one where there's less clutter and wires etc. up front. Something about just speakers and display seems so clean and nice, and makes me happy. 

My page should be up, it worked OK for me just now, but it really is a pretty modest setup (I don't even have HD yet!).


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

I got to your webpage earlier today. Very nice HT and DIY sub. What size is the driver? How much does the sub weight?


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

kjlewie said:


> Hello,
> 
> We are planning to upgrade our HT equipment to 7.1 as part of a larger project...


What about building a false wall to hide speakers and bring screen a little to the front :yes:

Take a look at this two threads ... I like what they did in the front :yes:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...-tanner-ridge-cinema-construction-thread.html and http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...construction/8587-blaser-ht-build-thread.html

If you're happy with your sub (or even if you get the new SVS PB13) ... a good addition to supplement your subs will be a Buttkicker LFE ... you'll be :yay: watching movies ...


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

kjlewie said:


> I am glad I got to see the intermediate pics though, becaue they led to a few questions.
> 
> Would you describe the in wall component space in a little more detail? How many components are you building for and what will the finished product look like (front and back and internal dimensions)? I plan to built the same thing but my current design is a little aggressive for my skill level and needs. Initially, I planned to build a side by side cabinet with enough slots for 8 components and four DVD drawers below (apprx 4' x 4'). I dropped the drawers from the plan as out of my league and, similar to your dry wall bid, too expensive from the pros. I like what you have framed and I know I can build it.


I bought a Raxxess 20 space rack (http://www.raxxess.com/product.asp?ID=209) and the optional smoked glass door. The rack was ~$90 and the door was ~$120. I'm building a table in the closet on which it will sit. The table will have storage underneath the rack. I'm building the table larger than the rack's footprint. This will give me room to pull out the amp, make connections, then slide it back in. I'm also building two panels flush with the back of the rack, rack height. One side will have power outlets. The other side will have connections for speakers, Ethernet, component and HDMI to the projector, satellite antenna cable, subwoofer cable, etc. The sides will be removable to allow access. All cable runs are through conduit to allow change/upgrade. The power to the rack, projector and sub will be on the same dedicated circuit.



kjlewie said:


> What are your room dimensions? It looks fully enclosed. Is this necessary to achieve ref level "pressurized" bass? Not sure of the correct terms here.


The HT space is roughly 16x18, with the refreshment area to the side roughly 8x10. It is fully enclosed. I've read that a sub acts differently in an enclosed space. I've heard it descibed as loading up the room. I'll leave it to the better informed to fill in the technical details.


kjlewie said:


> What kind of gear will you use?
> kjl


This will be a practical man's, not an audio/videophile's HT. 

Projector - Optoma HD70
Screen - Seymour AT DIY*
Speakers -
L/C/R - Ascend Acoustics CMT 340 SE's (vertical center)
Surrounds - Ascend Acoustics CBM 170 SE's
Surround Backs - Ascend Acoustics HTM 200 Classics
Subwoofer - SVS PB12 NSD 

Satellite - Dish Network HD Tuner*
BD Player - PS3*
Other Gamer - Wii*
DVD/DVD Audio/SACD Player - Oppo DV980H* 

AT Receiver - Panasonic SA-XR57K 
I was fascinated by the concept of digital amps. This unit was on sale for $239. I found out Panasonic has discontinued this item, so I bought it. I've been pleasantly surprised. There's only one HDMI in, so I may purchase a 4x2 HDMI switcher (see below).

The added bonus is that the XR57 has A&B main outs that can be switched to allow bi-wiring. It so happens that the Ascend 340's can be bi-wired, the connection between the high and low side of the crossover is an external, removable strap between two sets of binding posts. Even if there's a debatable advantage to bi-wiring, I'll be driving L&R with 200 watts a side. More headroom never hurts. I'm running two sets of wire to the fronts.

As a reality check, I may A/B with my NAD T762 when everything is set up.

HDMI Switch - Accell Ultra AV (http://www.accellcables.com/products/switchSplitter/4_2_Switch/4x2Switch.htm). I'm getting a 4x2 to allow me to send HDMI out to a nearby den/office space. The thought is we could buy an LCD for SD watching to save the projector bulb. The problem is for the size TV we want, we could buy two bulbs for the projector. Based on our viewing habits, I calculate we'll get >2 years from a bulb. Since we watch mostly movies and the PBS shows we watch are in HD, we may end up in the HT for all viewing. We'll see how it goes before plunking down money for another TV.

* - Yet to purchase.

I'm also considering getting an IR repeater and mounting the sensor in the ceiling above the couch. That way, I just aim the remotes straight up. This way, I can keep the door to the equipment rack closed and my remotes will still function. It will also allow me to add another sensor in the den/office when we get an LCD to watch SD programming.

Hope this helps and good luck on your project.

Doug


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## PT800 (Feb 19, 2008)

kjlewie said:


> PT800,
> 
> I plan to follow the advice here and make less radical/costly changes to a pretty good system. Moving the components, couch and adding Ultras are my basic plan now. I may play with the L & R surround locations. But, the side wall for the RS is about six feet further than the side wall for the LS. How big of a problem, if any, could this potentially be?
> 
> ...


Most HT receivers have independent distances settings for each channel. So even though your side distances are different, by quite a bit, you input those separate distances in the speaker distance menu.
If you are happy with your Infinity speakers, upgrading the sub will provide you with a more satisfying bass. As opposed to buying all new speakers, which would cost you more.


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

Very helpful information. Thanks a million Doug:clap:. I have a small request. Please get your camera fixed so you can post more pictures:waiting:. The in wall rack is exactly what I want to do. If you can provide more build pics, tips and advice, I'm all ears:help:. Are you stacking your components or adding shelves to the raxxess cabinet? If your rack is going to sit on a to be built table, will it not be connected to the wall? Or, will it be connected to the wall with the table for support?

With movies, sports and HD we use the projector quite a bit. We've had it for four years and we're still on the first bulb, probably getting close to time for a new one, though.

Nice idea for the IR repeater. I have a Harmony 880 that works through the dark glass in my setup but it's not flawless.

Thanks again for the info.

kjl


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

kjlewie said:


> I got to your webpage earlier today. Very nice HT and DIY sub. What size is the driver? How much does the sub weight?


Thanks kjlewie! The driver is an old school Adire Tempest 15". I built it before these crazy high excursion drivers were widely available, but I'm still quite happy with it. I've never weighed it, but it's fairly heavy... not so much that I can't move it with another person if I have to, but it doesn't walk at all.

...as much as I am happy with it, I do have a lot of sub envy over the projects on the forums. Lol.


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

kjlewie said:


> I have a small request. Please get your camera fixed so you can post more pictures:waiting:.


It should be in next week. Canon says it's an extremely rare problem; the lens would not release from the Rebel xti body. I tried to get them to fix it for free by claiming it's a design flaw. They threw me a bone and took 20% off the repair cost.



kjlewie said:


> Are you stacking your components or adding shelves to the raxxess cabinet? If your rack is going to sit on a to be built table, will it not be connected to the wall? Or, will it be connected to the wall with the table for support?


I'm using rack shelves for everything but the receiver, which will sit on the bottom of the cabinet.

The front support for the table will be attached to the storage room wall. The cabinet will be screwed to the table. There will be trim around the cabinet on the HT wall, similar to the trim around the door to the HT. The cabinet will actually stick out in the room some. Since it will have a door, it will have to stick out enough to allow the door to open all the way while clearing the trim. The door is not flat, it's about an inch deep to allow knobs on equipment to clear. Therefore, the front of the cabinet needs to be at least 1 3/4 inch out from the wall.

This weekend's agenda is to build the table. It looks like there'll be no construction photos, but I'll post as soon as my camera returns.

Doug


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

Those build threads are awesome. Once I started reading, I couldn't stop:reading:! The warm glow of the laptop at 1:00 AM didn't seem to bother my wife one bit. Thanks for the links.

I'm a little unsure about how to picture a false wall front without side walls to the left and right. I did a search and could find nothing. Do you have any more links or examples?

The look on my wife's face when I mentioned the Buttkicker, specifically when I said, "I'll rip open the bottom of the couch and screw the things in...:yikes:". That was great. I think I need to find someone with the buttkicker already installed so she can experience it. Then, I can begin the delicate negotiations.

Thanks for the help.

kjl


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

Based on the suggestions and ideas I''ve received, here is a Sketchup of the changes I plan to make to the HT. I think the front wall will look much cleaner - thanks for the help. Any additional thoughts would be appreciated.

Does anyone have any thoughts on acoustic treatments that I can plan to add over time? I included a coupe of additional pics to show the volume of the space for those that understand the acoustics (not me).

I think this thread should be in a different area now that we are no longer discussing in wall speakers. Which area would be better suited and how do I move it?

Thanks,

kjl


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

kjlewie said:


> I'm a little unsure about how to picture a false wall front without side walls to the left and right. I did a search and could find nothing. Do you have any more links or examples?


Sorry I don't ... 



> ... The look on my wife's face when I mentioned the Buttkicker, specifically when I said, "I'll rip open the bottom of the couch and screw the things in...:yikes:". That was great. I think I need to find someone with the buttkicker already installed so she can experience it. Then, I can begin the delicate negotiations.


I found this online ... http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Buttkicker-LFE-Kit?sku=421340&src=3WNTWXX&ZYXSEM=0 ... it seems a good deal, you can check about their return policy before ordering one, then try it ... and if you don't like it send it back :bigsmile:

I know you won't be disapointed with this purchase ... I don't regret getting mine (I ordered one first and a week later I got another for the second row :bigsmile


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

Thanks again and good luck with your project.

kjl


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

kjl, I think you're on the right track with the curtains behind your speakers to deaden a bit of front wall reflection. As far as any further acoustic treatments, I'd just wait and see how everything sounds, and then decide if there are any problems you want to fix. I think usually if you have a large opening on one side, you want to deaden the wall on the other side to try to match, but it looks like your opening is at the rear, so you should be good. That's my only thought right now.


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## kjlewie (May 24, 2008)

Hi Doug,

How is the progress on your project? Any more pics to show? I'm pretty interested:nerd:.

Thanks,

kjlewie


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