# Elac Subwoofers - S10EQ and S12EQ



## wgb1202 (Feb 14, 2017)

Anyone have any experience with them? A search of this forum using "ELAC" produced no results.

I'm looking for a sub to pair with my KEF LS50W speakers. My room is small (10'x12'x9') and I have DIY soffit traps around the wall/ceiling junction along with "superchunk" traps in the front corners.

I was initially considering an SVS SB-1000 but the auto-EQ of the Elacs has me curious. This is a music-only setup and with the small room space is at a premium.

Bill


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

There is no comparison, the Elac S10EQ has a frequency response of only 28-150Hz and the S12EQ is only slightly better at 25Hz. The so called auto EQ is just an APP on the phone that alows for some adjustment but nothing ground shattering. 

The SVS sb1000 would out preform the 10" sub in a heartbeat and sound much better for music. The S12EQ is slightly better in regards to weight of the cabinate but I do still wonder if its really a better all around sub.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

+1

The Elac speakers designed by Andrew Jones are quite nice, but the subs not so much. Along with the SB-1000 there are a few SB12-NSD's still available, so that one might be worth considering as well.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> There is no comparison, the Elac S10EQ has a frequency response of only 28-150Hz and the S12EQ is only slightly better at 25Hz. The so called auto EQ is just an APP on the phone that alows for some adjustment but nothing ground shattering.
> 
> The SVS sb1000 would out preform the 10" sub in a heartbeat and sound much better for music. The S12EQ is slightly better in regards to weight of the cabinate but I do still wonder if its really a better all around sub.


I cannot comment on your conclusions because I have no personal experience with any of these subs. However, the app is more sophisticated than you credit it. The autoEQ is based on measuring the back EMF of the driver in the cabinet and loaded by room modes in its particular position in the room. Whether it works or not, someone will have to test it........................

*EDIT: * The comment below from wgb1202 is correct. My note above is based on Andrew's description of how one tunes the *in-wall *subs since they are shipped without back-boxes.


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## wgb1202 (Feb 14, 2017)

tonyvdb said:


> There is no comparison, the Elac S10EQ has a frequency response of only 28-150Hz and the S12EQ is only slightly better at 25Hz. The so called auto EQ is just an APP on the phone that alows for some adjustment but nothing ground shattering.
> 
> The SVS sb1000 would out preform the 10" sub in a heartbeat and sound much better for music. The S12EQ is slightly better in regards to weight of the cabinate but I do still wonder if its really a better all around sub.


My understanding of the way the app works is that you measure the sub in the near field where room modes/gain are non-existent. Since the anechoic frequency response of the sub is known those near field measurements are then "adjusted" or "accounted for" given the inaccuracies of the mic being used. You then take another measurement at the listening position and the app adjusts the EQ to sound as close to that target response it ships with from the factory as possible (not perfectly flat due to real-world room modes).

Andrew Jones gave a very thorough response to some of the same concerns over on AVS and it does make sense, given all that I've read from Toole and others at Harman who have done a lot of solid research over the last decade or more.

I'm sure the SVS is a strong performer, I use a PC+ in my theater system, but the ease of the plug and play options the Elac offers at such a low price point make it very appealing.


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## wgb1202 (Feb 14, 2017)

theJman said:


> +1
> 
> The Elac speakers designed by Andrew Jones are quite nice, but the subs not so much. Along with the SB-1000 there are a few SB12-NSD's still available, so that one might be worth considering as well.


Have you spent some time with the Elacs? What about them didn't you like?

Thanks for the heads up on the SB12-NSD.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

I'm not really a fan of unnecessary, and those subs have a few such items. That's surprising given Andrew's stock in trade is not to waste time or money on things with dubious value.

If Elac wanted to create an app to control the subwoofer that's probably a good idea, seeing as how the world is filled with people who suffer withdrawal if they put their phone down for more than 5 minutes. That gives those folks another thing to fiddle with. But be smart about it and do what SVS did; make it in addition to normal controls, not in lieu of. Why deliberately cut off market share when you don't have to?

In addition, their EQ system seems to bring almost no value, just cost. Except for the most basic AVR, you're going to get some type of sub EQ with your sound processor. That makes Elac's all but superfluous. Their variant may be better than the base sub EQ with really inexpensive receivers, but it's very unlikely those same people are going to be buying an Elac sub because they're priced high relative to the competition; if you bought an inexpensive receive it's almost a guarantee the same budget restrictions will be applied to the sub. And it uses the phones mic for sampling? That's probably a $2 OEM part, restricted by a tiny aperture no less. How accurate can it really be?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I agree Jim, another point is once "you set it, forget it". Ive had my PB13u set in my theater room for 8 years now and set it up, made the correct adjustments over a few days and have not touched it since.


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## wgb1202 (Feb 14, 2017)

theJman said:


> I'm not really a fan of unnecessary, and those subs have a few such items. That's surprising given Andrew's stock in trade is not to waste time or money on things with dubious value.
> 
> If Elac wanted to create an app to control the subwoofer that's probably a good idea, seeing as how the world is filled with people who suffer withdrawal if they put their phone down for more than 5 minutes. That gives those folks another thing to fiddle with. But be smart about it and do what SVS did; make it in addition to normal controls, not in lieu of. Why deliberately cut off market share when you don't have to?
> 
> In addition, their EQ system seems to bring almost no value, just cost. Except for the most basic AVR, you're going to get some type of sub EQ with your sound processor. That makes Elac's all but superfluous. Their variant may be better than the base sub EQ with really inexpensive receivers, but it's very unlikely those same people are going to be buying an Elac sub because they're priced high relative to the competition; if you bought an inexpensive receive it's almost a guarantee the same budget restrictions will be applied to the sub. And it uses the phones mic for sampling? That's probably a $2 OEM part, restricted by a tiny aperture no less. How accurate can it really be?


Jim,

It seems you're dismissing the Elac subs based on a lot of assumptions but no experience. Also, as noted in my original post, I'm looking for a sub for a music only system. Not only that, but it's an nontraditional music system in that both preamp and power amp (and DAC) are built into the speakers so I have no type of sub EQ built in. The closest thing I have to that is utilizing the new parametric EQ facilities built into the latest version of Roon. That would require making measurements with my UMIK-1 and REW, manually trying to dial in the sub, manually trying to make good EQ adjustments and hoping I got it all right.

The set-it-and-forget-it approach that Elac's taking is much more attractive, assuming it produces good results.

Are there any other sub makers out there providing anything similar to Elac at the price point? Or a combination of sub & other auto-EQ device?

Bill


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

$700.00? Not for an elac.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Bill, dont forget that the Elac sub uses the built in mic on the phone as Jim already pointed out. That there is already a bad idea as they are not by any stretch of the imagination good quality or sensitive enough to take the kind of readings that are needed to auto EQ a sub.

REW is a much better tool and you would find that your results would be much better using the manual adjustments of a Sub like SVS. There is no such thing as a "music only sub" or "musical sub" if the sub is built well it will handle music just as well as movies.


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## wgb1202 (Feb 14, 2017)

I'm confident in using the phone's mic because of the method Elac is using.

I will admit that my biggest concern is that there are NO physical controls to fall back on. I'm tied to an app that may/may not be supported some years down the line.

And the SVS' are nicer looking IMO.

Bill


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

wgb1202 said:


> I'm confident in using the phone's mic because of the method Elac is using.


Now whose making assumptions?

You may very well fall into the market segment that Elac was targeting; no sub processing and willing to pay extra to get it. If the product fits your needs than you know what to buy, but your arguments for the value of those features only applies to people in your situation. For the vast majority they simply won't.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

There's definitely a targeted demographic for this. People want convenience and that's great. I just can't believe that the mic in a phone can do justice to this. , even some spl meters use correction curves. Plus phone mics are contoured for human voice. The software may be pretty good but I just don't believe in the hardware.


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## wgb1202 (Feb 14, 2017)

Maybe he explains it better than I do in regards to using the mic on a smartphone:






Again, the thing that worries me is the lack of physical controls due to unknown future support of the app.


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## pageman99 (Apr 8, 2017)

I'm sorry folks but most of you have no experience with either of these subs and have no business talking about them other than to perhaps quote facts, figures and reviews. (Ok, ok, it's what we do here and I'm occasionally just as guilty  )

I happen to have an SB2000 and an Elac 12EQ right now that I'm auditioning for the HT that I'm putting together. But I mostly listen to music. My main stereo rig is in another area of the house and uses PSB Synchrony One full range speakers that don't require a sub and sound terrific, though not perfect (is there such a thing?). That's my base line.

The HT uses Elac Uni-Fi UF5 towers, a PSB Synchrony One center (which cost more than the towers, and that's another story ), and a pair of older Sony 155 bookshelf speakers for the surrounds.

I've had the SVS2000 for over a month now and I've had a of a time dialing it in. Nice sub that goes low, but I've concluded it's just not up to my expectations for music. Not its fault, it's terrific for music, but it relatively inexpensive compared to the PSB's that I'm comparing it to. Let me stop here and explain that when I made SVS aware of my situation, they were terrific, telling me they would sell me an SB13 Ultra (which my budget wouldn't even let me consider) at a spectacular price and let me keep the SB2000 beyond the trial period for comparison. And I quote Gary their president, "We just want you to be happy." Kudos for this world class attitude.

So I disconnected the SB2000 and connected the Elac 12EQ. The app took a bit of fiddling to connect to bluetooth (not its fault, I didn't watch the youtube video on connecting). Unfortunately, the manual didn't have the link so that took a bit of research to learn about. I used my Samsung phone and followed the directions. This app is terrific, I accomplished in 2 minutes what I couldn't get done in a month experimenting with the SB2000. I tried various manual adjustments to improve the Elac's automatic equalization, but ended up going back to the automated settings. Now this is a bit unfair to the SVS because the Elac sub is voiced to match my Elac towers. And I'm fussy about my sound and not very good at doing manual equalization. I rely on MCACC on my Pioneer Elite SC-72, while only making a few adjustments to balance volumes at my listening position, never touching equalization, phase, etc. 

Bottom line is I like the sound of the Elac sub which is priced in the same range as the SVS (there's a couple bargains from Amazon marketplace from time to time if you watch for them), even though it's still breaking in, and I'm not convinced yet it will be as clear and seamless as the PSB towers (yes, I know, apples and oranges), but if you don't have high expectations, how can you even aspire to them?

Will the EQ12 be as good as the SVS Ultra? More apples and oranges as the Ultra is 3 times the price at retail, but that's a separate issue from what we are talking about here. But I will say, I'm wishing the SVS had an automated app. I can't emphasize enough just how wonderful it works, and how much aggravation and time it eliminates.


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## wgb1202 (Feb 14, 2017)

@pageman99 thanks for sharing your experience. The only thing holding me back from pulling the trigger on the Elac is I worry about Elac's future support of the app. As people change phones and operating systems progress will Elac commit to the constant maintenance updating that will be required.


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## pageman99 (Apr 8, 2017)

Valid point, and there is no ready answer. I've been involved in a few software startups and the best answer is to make the software as independent of the operatin g system as possible. Sometimes that's possible, sometimes not. Worse we have no way of knowing.

I will say this, given how convenient the setup was compared to traditional fiddling with knobs, this type of setup will be with us for a long time, imo. I also note that the new line of upscale subs from Elac has the same EQ software as the Debut line. I would say that all the subs use the same sw, so I don't think support will be an issue. That is, as long as Elac is active in our market, and they've been around a long, long time. Yet knobs need no support. 

Pick your poison. Convenience vs the risk of becoming an orphan.

Btw, My Samsung Edge just upgraded to the newest version of Android and the app worked fine.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

pageman99 said:


> I'm sorry folks but most of you have no experience with either of these subs and have no business talking about them other than to perhaps quote facts, figures and reviews.


Although you make a point and are somewhat true you don't have to hear a sub to be able to make a knolagable statement on the subject.



> I accomplished in 2 minutes what I couldn't get done in a month experimenting with the SB2000. I tried various manual adjustments to improve the Elac's automatic equalization, but ended up going back to the automated settings. Now this is a bit unfair to the SVS because the Elac sub is voiced to match my Elac towers.


Again, now your making comments that cotradict the statement that you made at the top of your post. The flexibility of the parametric eq on the back of the SVS would accomplish more than the Elac if used correctly. Did you ever try using REW available here at the HTS? 
On your second point about the Elac being voiced to your sub and Vic versa is also not true at all. There is no such thing regarding a properly designed sub. Voicing is irrelevant.


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## pageman99 (Apr 8, 2017)

tonyvdb said:


> Although you make a point and are somewhat true you don't have to hear a sub to be able to make a knolagable statement on the subject.
> 
> 
> Again, now your making comments that cotradict the statement that you made at the top of your post. The flexibility of the parametric eq on the back of the SVS would accomplish more than the Elac if used correctly. Did you ever try using REW available here at the HTS?
> ...


Sorry, but I suggest you download the Elac setup software app and run it in demo mode and tell me how it isn't moire powerful than the three knobs on the back of the SVS which only adjusts volume, phase and low pass filter cutoff frequency while the Elac has a complete equalizer tool as well as low pass, phase and volume. 

As far as voicing, are you telling me that if Barbara Streisand and Tony Bennet sing the exact same note that their voices will sound exactly the same? The same applies to voicing of subs, they all have their own character.

And your own example just made the point that while one can make intelligent statements (which I readily agree with) about a sub (or any other part of a sound system), that only applies to quantitative differences, not qualitative differences. Now lets get back to the original topic and try to help the original poster with useful information.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

pageman99 said:


> As far as voicing, are you telling me that if Barbara Streisand and Tony Bennet sing the exact same note that their voices will sound exactly the same? The same applies to voicing of subs, they all have their own character.
> 
> And your own example just made the point that while one can make intelligent statements (which I readily agree with) about a sub (or any other part of a sound system), that only applies to quantitative differences, not qualitative differences. Now lets get back to the original topic and try to help the original poster with useful information.


tonvb is actually correct; subwoofers are not voiced to match speakers. They may share aesthetics, but competently engineered speakers and subwoofers will work in a mix-n-match scenario. Paul Jones is definitely a competent engineer, so there's no way he would have done otherwise.

With regards to your "intelligent statements" and "useful information" comments... you should perhaps heed your own advice, as your combative and argumentative tone are not doing the OP - our yourself - any favors. Please make sure all your posts are aligned with the forums rules.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

pageman99 said:


> As far as voicing, are you telling me that if Barbara Streisand and Tony Bennet sing the exact same note that their voices will sound exactly the same? The same applies to voicing of subs, they all have their own character.




This topic maybe for another thread but this statement is not true. If you can hear Barbara Streisand through a subwoofer, the setup is completely wrong. You may hear Tony Bennett, but almost 100% of his voice will be coming from, and effected by the voicing of the speakers. Even a great deal of instruments that are in the subwoofer frequency range are actually heard in the upper harmonic ranges. Unplug your mains and just listen to your sub alone. You might be surprised. The truth is, subs aren't voiced. They DO have characteristics of their own compared to others but they're related to damping, Q factor, extension and output. 
As for the software, it looks pretty powerful in the demo, and even quite effective. I've even read a few fairly nice reviews of the system. Many of us however prefer the tried and true and because of that, it seems dubious that real subwoofer setup can be reduced to two measurements and a couple button pushes. My personal opinion is that the microphones in phones and tablets are just not accurate enough and maybe I'm all wet, but I will still trust the hardware that I know is built for the job. I also think deleting the manual controls is a poor decision, and for 800 bucks, I'll keep shopping... 
but that's just me.


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## pageman99 (Apr 8, 2017)

I wasn't speaking in terms of engineered voicing of speakers, simply in terms of the inevitable difference in voice brought on by different damping factors, voice coil inertias and so on resulting in different timbres.

I would guess Andrew Jones, while designing for a broad application base for mixing and matching, would nevertheless have preference for a particular range of timbre, hence even unintentionally or not, voicing for a similar sound to the Uni-Fi and Debut lines which I can attest to being quite similar as I auditioned both for about a month before deciding on the UF5's. All speakers are voiced differently, with different designers having different preferences.

As far as combative, I apologize, but it's my natural state in discussions which I try to control but often fail. It's a result of having 9 siblings, all of us becoming overachievers in different fields, so we learned at an early age to be aggressive, or not be heard. Again, my apologies, but I mean no harm, and certainly no insult. I pretty much use the same name on all the boards where I contribute and have never had a problem other than having other users request a bit less forwardness, which I mostly respond to. Thanks for pointing this out.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Well, forgive my misunderstanding, but it seemed like that's what you were saying. Quote:
"Now this is a bit unfair to the SVS because the Elac sub is voiced to match my Elac towers."
While this statement is not true, I will concede to the differences in what we're both saying is, semantics. By that I mean, you're saying "voicing" and I'm saying tuning the sub to a certain Q, which is not timbre, and which has zero relevance to how the mains are voiced. A lower Q system will be well damped, and exhibit better driver control and generally better pitch definition and linearity. A higher Q system will be loose flabby and boomy by comparison, but neither version would have what's considered voicing. In any case, I agree Andrew Jones likely has a target goal in meeting budget and performance constraints while still striving for a good product. Being the oldest of 6, I understand competitiveness, but that's different than abrasiveness. I won't speak for the other guys but, for me, apology accepted. Hope you don't think I'm on a witch hunt.


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## pageman99 (Apr 8, 2017)

I'm sorry, but this will be my last post. What you are essentially saying is that all subs sound the same. Maybe in an ideal world, but this isn't an ideal world and all designers have to make design choices. And those choices affect the voicing of speakers AND even subs. 

I'm not going to get into the technical reasons beyond what I mentioned already. Wiki has plenty of info and links. You might want to start with damping. 

Have a nice day folks. I don't have time to spend arguing over points, I consider, rightly or wrongly, self evident. I came here to help someone out, no more, no less.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

First, apologies to my fellow shacksters. I didn't intend to take this thread into the rhubarb. Sorry. Second, I'm not saying all subs sound the same, quite the contrary, and as you suggested, I have mentioned damping more than once so not sure what that point was. Your lengthy post about evaluating and testing the elac and svs was well done and interesting, and I believe very helpful to the op. Maybe it seems I pulled something out of context and ran with it, and but I felt it was worth addressing. Again. Maybe its own thread would've been more appt. The guys here are a nice bunch, and I think most would say I fit that description. I try to be polite, and respectful so whatever tone you imagined when reading my posts(not speaking for others) was intended as friendly. However, if you want to go eat worms...
I'm done.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

pageman99 said:


> I'm sorry, but this will be my last post. What you are essentially saying is that all subs sound the same.


No, no one has ever said that. What we are saying is that "if" the sub is manufactured properly and its made by a reputable company it will preform well with any speakers. Out of the box no sub will be perfect with in room response but after fine tuning it properly and placing it in the correct location you will only be limited by its output ability. 
Saying its voiced to match certain speakers is no different than saying one sub is more musical than another. Neither are relevant if the sub is designed correctly.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I believe that subwoofers are not inherently designed to work with "Some" speakers and not others. That would entirely defeat the purpose of a subwoofer, which by definition is designed to work below the general frequencies of the mains and therefore would not be voiced to match....well anything.This is especially true considering the enormous range of speakers out there from mini monitors to full range monster speakers. 

Also all subs cannot sound the same, they are not all of equal value nor are they designed to all be the same, small, medium and large do not equate to having the same sonic sensibilities.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

I appreciate the first person/hands on opinion immensely. Thanks for your contribution, it was thoughtful and informative.

I've been wondering about the Elac speaker line in general since i read the CES Jan, 2016 review and a few months later read a Stereophile review all heaping praise on Mr Jones' entry level speakers auditioning on that day. Given, these are not the $35K Elac Concentro speakers but i wonder what physical attributes in the $250 price range speakers make these diminutive relatives sound so musical.

Is it voice coil materials choices, under hung/overhung, flat wound square wound, copper, aluminum, beryllium copper, magnet structure/materials, cabinet and cabinet damping materials... all driver and speaker voicing techniques to say nothing of crossover materials choices. 

The above info etc etc is only the beginning but i'm still not sure the Elac subs voicing is apparent or as important as the convenience of digital sound EQ even if only thru an calibrated mic, there is a noted improvement. Could the improvement be improved upon..., blah, blah, blah. Even if there is a notable voicing/sound characteristic attributable to the Elac Subs the real question is the synergy of speakers, source material and amplification..., sum effect after compromises...

With poorly designed, implemented and utilized in the real world electronic equipment there is technology enough to eq a system into presenting satisfactory musical quality but requires readjusting for every new bit of music, theater etc etc because the compromises are too great. These days we do not have this particular problem. Today, Home Theater and Home Stereo electronics are so well understood and implemented the real question is price point, aesthetics and convenience..., in my humble opinion.

I don't proof read..., sorry for the errors and/or readability


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