# 4 channel balanced line level mixer?



## tweeksound

I'm looking for a portable line level mixer with 4 balanced channels that has a stereo line level output.

I've looked all over and can't seem to find it. Perhaps it's so simple, no one thought to make one??

Any help is appreciated.

-Matt


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## brucek

Behringer sells a ton of these mixers. In fact most people here use the XENYX 802 Mixer for its mic preamp, but it still is a nice 4 input balanced mixer. They sell all sorts of these things at Behringer. ............ They're available on-line or at local guitar shops.

brucek


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## Otto

Yeah, I picked up a similar Peavey model a while ago. Works just fine. I think I picked it up from Amazon (probably through the Shack electronics store) for <$100.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

tweeksound said:


> I'm looking for a portable line level mixer with 4 balanced channels that has a stereo line level output.


Not sure I get the concept. Assuming that by “stereo line level output” you mean a low-level unbalanced output like consumer hi-fi gear has, why would you need balanced inputs for something like that?

That said, don’t know why the “baby” mixers brucek and Otto recommended wouldn’t work. Even though they presumably have high-level balanced outputs, their output level controls will get the signal down to the low-level you’re looking for, so compatibility with whatever you’re using downstream shouldn’t be a problem.

Regards,
Wayne


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## tweeksound

Thanks all!

I think my search terms were a little too narrow.

The reason I want balanced ins is the preamps I will be sending to it will have balanced outs and I've heard that with 1 specific one, the DAV BG1, if you don't send it to balanced ins, you can have some issues with quality. Not sure why, but there was a discussion about this issue on a forum and the manufacturer concluded it was true and recommended using balanced ins.
Plus I'm trying to get as best a S/N ratio I can and the added gain of balanced ins would help there as well.

Ideally, I just want a piece of gear that will accommodate all the finicky needs of the peripherals I'll use for location recording. High output boutique preamp with balanced outs and a 2 track digital recorder.

Balanced ins, and stereo out would suit this perfectly.
Once I get the preamps, today (if UPS stops being annoying), I will see if the difference that balancing vs. non balancing is as crucial as some users have said.

Then I'll be able to make a more educated decision on just the type of portable mixer That Will suit my needs best. 

Thanks for all the replies!


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## tweeksound

Oh ya, also , ideally, I would prefer to have no frills.
No EQ, preamps, extra channels, sends,returns, etc. etc...

I want the mixer to have as little effect on the audio as possible.

Basically just 4 balanced line ins -> 4 pan pots and attenuators (not boosters) -> 2 line level outs.
Balanced might be nice as well because I may have the lines run a long distance.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

You might want to post a question on the Tape-Op Message Board, a Forum for recording hobbyists and pros.

Regards,
Wayne


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## drf

tweeksound said:


> Oh ya, also , ideally, I would prefer to have no frills.
> No EQ, preamps, extra channels, sends,returns, etc. etc...
> 
> I want the mixer to have as little effect on the audio as possible.
> 
> Basically just 4 balanced line ins -> 4 pan pots and attenuators (not boosters) -> 2 line level outs.
> Balanced might be nice as well because I may have the lines run a long distance.


If you can't find one, let us know and I will design you one, I don't have the time build and test a prototype but I certainly have the time to do the mathes.


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## tweeksound

Thanks Wayne A. Pflughaupt and drf.
I have asked on a couple other recording forums with not much luck yet.

drf, when you say, design, do you mean write up a DIY schematic?
I'd love to be able to make my own mini line level mixer out of top notch parts and have it be exactly what I'm looking for.
I'd love to know more details on this.

How hard would it be to build? I build my own cables but have not made anything like this.
Could I just buy my own enclosure and solder all the parts together?

Thanks!


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## drf

How hard it is to do depends on your understanding of electronic design and your determination to do it right. Something like this could be done on vero-board (stripboard), which is easier, with similar results to one built using a custom fabricated PCB, the difference will be small but in favour of the the PCB. To actually design one is not hard. For the most part the work has already been done by the component manufacturers, all we need to do is take their suggested application and tweek it for our desired environment. 

Here is a simply balanced line driver/reciever unit

Using this as a foundation we can make a unit to whatever quality spec you want. All we need to do is add the main mixer and line level driver (unbalanced) and design a powersupply and case.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

What about this? All TRS balanced inputs, including two at mic level. TRS outputs that can be used balanced or unbalanced. Not cheap, but if you’re patient you can probably pick up one on eBay for a couple hundred or less.

Ashly LX-308 line level mixer

Regards,
Wayne


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## tweeksound

Thanks Wayne,

That look nice. I bet it would sound great too.
The only thing is, since it's for my live rig which I'll carry all around and use everyday I really need it to be as small as possible.

Something this size would really be ideal.










I do live recordings, sometimes 2 or 3 a day, over a 60 mile radius for radio and I need my rig to be carried by just me in 1 trip from home to the gig and back.
It already includes 2 SM 81s in their cases, Marantz PMD 660 with power cord, FMR RNP with power cord, DAV BG1 with Power cord, 4 15' mic cables, 2 mic stands, and a 40' extension power cable. Plus a small kit of random adapters for any eventuality, aspirin, and Tums :bigsmile:And then, quite often, since I'm only 15' or less from my mics at any time, I need to have it all set up and break down very compactly and quickly. There have been times I've had to sit on the floor just a few feet from the performers because it was a packed room.

I'm gonna start looking for a larger flight case to replace my brief case and if I can find on that is reasonably sized and can fit a 1U unit I may just go for something like that.

Thanks again!


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## Guest

Hi all, new here.

I have two Behringer RX-1602 Eurorack Pro line level mixers in my home studio and they work pretty well for my needs, given my budget.

I know you said 4 channel and this is 16....or 8 stereo pairs, but the price is hard to beat for the extra channels.

Actually at the mo' only one is in use. I use it to monitor my gear as I dumped my mixing board in favor of mixing in the box. I run my G4 and my Intel Mac Pro Quad stereo out's into the first two channels, the Digi 002R L+R out's into 2 channesl as well as my POD into two, my Axon AX100MkII, my Behringer Bass V-Amp, the Numark USB trurntable and the Tascam DA-30 DAT player.

Some of these unit's outs go by way of a Behringer patchbay before they hit the mixer so I can access the signals for recording.

The out's go to my Event 20/20 BAS monitors.

One of my mute switches has become a little wanky...every now and then I lose a side and I just have to jiggle it on and off a few times and all is good...that is the only problem I have had in the several years I have had them.

http://www.audiomidi.com/RX1602-EuroRack-Pro--P4368.aspx


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## tweeksound

Hey Fumblyfingers, 
Sorry I missed your post.

Thanks for the recommendation.
I tried a Behringer Eurorack mixer 's line level ins and it De-stroyed my sound.
Not sure if this mixer is made the same way or what but it was really bad with the line levels from my preamps. It's own pre's weren't nearly as bad as I expected but certainly didn't touch my DAV BG-1 or FMR RNP. 

Also, I really need it to be as small as possible as I will be brining it to 1 or 2 live gig per day, 5 - 7 days per week. 
Most of the time I only have a small folding chair to put all my hear on at these events.
I try to be as minimalistic as possible.
If I get a chance to try one out, I def. will. If it reproduces my preamps outputs faithfully into a stereo input, I'll def. buy one.


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## Guest

tweeksound said:


> Most of the time I only have a small folding chair to put all my hear on at these events.


It sounds like maybe you do video interviews or smaller industrials/ film/video shoots. Been there done that in a different area of production. Fun stuff. I work on the show 24 as a rigger.

I am very curious, not to put you on the spot but how did the Eurorack trash your sound? I mean I am certain at that price it is not great and I need to get a better system. I record my own music using a Pro Tools system and stuff like Reason 4, Sibelius notation software and guitar synths and all....not home theatre. I am about to get Logic Studio which has surround mix capability.

I used to have a rather clunky large Studiomaster board and the real estate I gained going to the rack mount line level mixer, in my small home studio, was huge.

The thing is I assembled the whole deal from the ground up and with the exception of replacing the Studiomaster I have nothing really to compare to. The Behringer Eurorack seemed a big improvement to the old board which really colored the sound unpleasantly to my ear.

Anyway, just from an audiophile point of view, if you could tell me what to look for in the Eurorack that you found bad or negative I would appreciate it so I can look out for that also.

Thanks.


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## thxgoon

Fumblyfingers said:


> I record my own music using a Pro Tools system and stuff like Reason 4, Sibelius notation software and guitar synths and all....not home theatre. I am about to get Logic Studio which has surround mix capability.


Sorry a little OT but would you mind posting your impressions with Logic vs Pro Tools? I've been going back and forth for a while and I've used Pro Tools in the past, I just don't want to deal with all of the proprietary stuff...


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## Guest

I don't have Logic yet....BUT......it seems you get the equivalent of what would cost you a huge amount of money to get a comparable Pro Tools system, for a mere $499 for the Logic Studio software. Supposedly the Apogee converter is maximized for Logic and Apple...I am running a Mac. This converter is about $1200...so for $1600 you can have a very fine sounding system that has as many tracks as your computer can handle, fine plug ins and two extra softwares...the live performance one with the synths and guitar amp simulator and an editing software aimed more at two channel stuff like video sound editing and adding foley and stuff. 

Pro Tools LE 003 Rack comes in around the same if you also get the $500 48 track Producers Toolkit but has many less features. Pro Tools LE maxes out at 32 tracks, you have to get the toolkit to get the extra 16 tracks and some plug in's and other features. 


That said I like my Pro Tools a lot. I feel however that at some point my 002R will become obsolete and unsupported and I will be faced with another expensive upgrade...I am done with that.

More importantly I want to eventually write some sort of music for film and dabble with surround mixing. Pro Tools you have to go the HD system for that...very expensive....very!

I want to get Logic Studio and start integrating it, learning the program while continuing to record music into Pro Tools.

Logic comes with all sorts of loops and stuff to get going. I just do not like the look of it...that is what is topping me so far...it had a very dark Goth look to the interface.


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## tweeksound

> It sounds like maybe you do video interviews or smaller industrials/ film/video shoots. Been there done that in a different area of production. Fun stuff. I work on the show 24 as a rigger.


Good guess. I do sound for video occasionally, but this rig is mainly for live jazz, folk, orchestral, acoustic music, and speech for an AM radio show here in Concord NH called Performances and Lectures. Also, I record performances and recitals at the music school down the street from me.
And it's third job is for my business Mahogany Audio (mahoganyaudio.com) where I record conferences, seminars, lectures, and podcasts for businesses.

It would be ridiculous to take my 40 lb 24 track digital console out every day, so I built (and am still building) a portable live rig.
I can only use 1 of the 2 stereo pres I've got at a time until I find a line level mixer that can handle them both.



> I am very curious, not to put you on the spot but how did the Euro rack trash your sound?


It's own preamps were fine for a $100 mixer but the line ins did not accept my preamps for some reason.
They were both horrifically noisy and there was this static sound as well.
The signal to noise ratio was literally close to 1:1!

There was obviously something wrong and this was not normal.
The pre's on those channels worked fine. it was just the line ins that had trouble.
That's why I say, if I get my hands on the line mixer you spoke of, I'd love to try it out.


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## tweeksound

Basically what I'm saying is... If you had the same issue I was having, you'd know it :0)

The Behringer pre's are no where near my DAV and RNPs but they are quite a bargain for $100 if you have a need for em.

I'm actually looking to audition the Behringer AD 8000 analogue converters w/preamps.
Cheap as can be but I've heard good things and it will be a good back up if I need to record. 24 tracks at once.


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## tweeksound

You readin this Jay?

Register and get involved if you 've got time!


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## tweeksound

Well, I've found a transparent line level mixer that I like. It's teh Korg keyboard mixer! It's got 8 channels but I only need 4 maybe 5 right now when using my RNP stereo pre and my DAV stereo pre. That plus the line out of a lav mic gives me 5 channels as is. I go direct to 2 track and I can pan the individual channels as I record between the 2 tracks of the Marantz. 

I've been doing jazz bands 3 or 4 nights a week, classical recitals and concerts 1 or 2 times a week and conference, lecture, and seminar recordings 2 to 4 times a week. Now for these quick and easy live recordings I can have 4 channels of top quality boutique preamplifcation without lugging my huge 24 track around. 

Tomorrow night I'll do a jazz concert where I can have 1 mic (LDC) on the bass, 1 on the electric guitar amp (SDC) one on the drums (SDC) and one on the piano (SDC)! 
I'm looking forward to more detailed and present micing options!!!

Thank you to everyone who's helped me out in this.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Having trouble finding that mixer. Got a link for those of us with inquiring minds? 

Regards,
Wayne


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## tweeksound

Right, Its actually quite old and no one seems to have it anymore. Its the Korg KMX-62. A friend of mine has had it sitting around for 10+ years. It's made to have several keyboards (4 stereo or 8 mono) going in and then out a stereo line to the amp. My Dav BG-1 preamp has a nifty little feature where you can copy channel 1 to channel 2s output with the press of a button so I took ch. 1 directly into the ADC of my studio and then ran ch. 2 to the mixer and then out into ADC 2 and recorded them.

They didn't cancel completely after phase reversal but during a blind comparison I could not hear a difference in quality or noise floor. I'll do the test again where I'll make sure Ch1 and Ch2 from the DAV cancel and then have the same length of cable run on both to be sure to isolate just the effects of the mixer on ch.2.

Never the less, I used it last night and am VERY pleased with the results. I'll post some examples for folks to hear. The thing with my DAV and RNP pres is the RNP's gain is in 6dB increments and the DAV's is in 3 dB increments. The mixer allows me to get finer levels and it really adds flexibility to my work flow.
There are even VCA buttons on each channel that act as silent mutes!


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## tweeksound

I'm Sorry, for some reason I got it in my head that it has 8 channels. It's actually only 6.


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