# the new digital format



## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

It would seem that the CD will soon go the way of the 8track and downloadable MP3 will become the new standard.

When I listen to Pandora I think it sounds very good perhaps the availability of so much music makes it sound so good.

Last week I installed some more DIY room treatments so this week I dusted off the turntable and played some records, oh the sweet sound of vinyl.

I just think it will be a sad sad day when the best you can get is compressed audio.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

We need to be careful about terms here. Compression with respect to analog was a different matter compared to compression of data. 

While I agree that it would be sad if we only had low bit rate MP3 available, this is really not the case. There are a wide range of resolutions available. If you consider what we actually listened to a couple of decades ago, the quality of data compressed audio these days is, in many ways, quite good. There are certainly things about vinyl that are appealing but much that was wrong as well. We can get pretty good results with digital these days, and if the most lame MP3 is the worst it gets, I say we have it pretty good.

And you can probably buy more vinyl now than you could ten years ago.


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

I guess your right. I am aware of HDtracks that sell remasters of many old classics in up to 24bit 192 kHz sampling. We are only talking about a handful of recordings. 

I think mostly I’ve become an old guy lddude:and can’t get with the whole MP3 thing. You are right about vinyl. As I was cranking up volume during a song that really jammed and no matter how clean it sounds when the music is playing when it get silent you hear all that background noise.

I think it’s also that I remember the rock album art of the 60 and 70s. It was like cool extras. Now one Ipod nano holds more music than a wall of records and there is no art at all.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Although I agree that downloading digital media is on the rise I dont think that CDs or DVD/Bluray are in any danger of going away any time soon. I know many people including me who still like to have the actual media in their hands. I like the fact that I can look at the insert and if my PC ever crashes I dont loose the music or videos that are in digital format.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2011)

To this day, I'm still a hands on media guy. I like vinyl, SACD, and quality CDs are fine. At the end of the day, I'd like to see lossless blu-ray music disk, or studio quality audio files available without the loudness wars. 

I'm one of the crazy ones that think that higher res formats sound better. You can demo some here. http://www.linnrecords.com/catalogue.aspx

As long as your sound card supports 24bit, 192K. You can demo their highest quality studio masters.

I suspect some day, my digital library will grow larger with high quality files.


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## NairbD (Nov 12, 2011)

I admit that I'm an "Old Analogue Guy" (use to Master vinyl) but I'm starting to appreciate digital for what it is...Much more lineal and potentially accurate, but digital compression as we mostly know it is "BAD" as an Audiophile. CD's today are mostly poor examples of what "Digital Audio" can do. We just need to demand it from both the Producers and the hardware suppliers!


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

What is "lineal"? Do you mean linear? How do you define accurate? Do you not consider the limited dynamic range and noise levels in recordings and transmissions of the analog era to be inaccuracies? Certainly there are advantages to analog, but IMO, the overal quality of music reproduction today is generally better than in the past. You don't have to listen to highly compressed MP3.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Now your getting in to loudness war argument. You can look at recent remasters of classic recordings, Sgt. Pepper is a good example, and see that we are losing dynamics in these recordings. It's not a problem with digital but rather a flawed view of how a recording should sound.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

rab-byte said:


> Now your getting in to loudness war argument.


I don't believe lcaillo was referring to the Loudness Wars, he can correct me if I am wrong.

Back in the day, when vinyl was king, compression was used to keep the needle from jumping out of the groove! Dynamic extremes, especially in the bass regions, simply had to be truncated to fit the format.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Folks, I read that there are more turntable manufacturers now than there ever have been before.

Flip side... I just got my tracking # for the "Wish You Were Here" SACD. 

Plenty of choices out there, HiFi isn't dead yet!


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Correct, Tesseract. This is the point. We have better choices than ever.


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## NairbD (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes, of course I meant "Linear". I just washed my mouth out!:huh: sorry.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

We thought so. I just wanted to be sure that there was not some new signal processing concept that I was not familiar with. :scratch:


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

tesseract said:


> I don't believe lcaillo was referring to the Loudness Wars, he can correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Back in the day, when vinyl was king, compression was used to keep the needle from jumping out of the groove! Dynamic extremes, especially in the bass regions, simply had to be truncated to fit the format.


True but not the case now however, still year after year we are getting less and less dynamics not more. It's a big issue and goes right to the heart of good audio. 

Start with a quality recording.


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## NairbD (Nov 12, 2011)

Actually "Compression" in the old analogue sense was used extensively, and primarily on "Rock" recordings mostly for the psycho-acoustic phenomenon of making the recording "sound" louder...Narrowing the dynamic range allowed the recording to have less quiet passages and more Loud passages to pass thru the radio stations limiter with less peak attenuation. Vinyl disks were quite capable of producing extremely wide dynamic ranges. the only inherent limitation was length.. We use to cut records at between 350 and 400 LPI (Lines Per Inch) for an album for example. Loud Bass passages, required more space if their volume was loud because of lateral excursion (left to right movement of the cutting stylus).... any out of phase information contributed to the up and down excursion this would make the lines or "grooves" appear very wide and very narrow as the stylus moved up and down. This could cause the playback needle to jump out at loud out of phase passages.

This, in my opinion, also contributed to excess "Popping" noted in some vinyl cuts. Now with digital media neither volume nor amount of bass content is a serious limiting factor. This is why Subwoofers and LFE (Low frequency effects) are so prevalent in motion Picture sound tracks today.

I'm open to opposing comments on this however.

Reminds me of the joke: "How many grooves on a record?"....Two, one on each side! lddude:


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks guys, this has made for some interesting discussion. What got me started on this a week ago I heard a talk show state that in a year the CD my die. I know of no one that buys CDs. I'm nowhere near the consumer I once was.

Do you guys know about HDtracks. I was looking into their recordings but have not been able to find any statements as to the quality and mastering source. If they are not working off the studio master for all we know they are up converting CDs.


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## NairbD (Nov 12, 2011)

Interesting post Ghost Rider. I agree with you about CD's. the end is near unless they "UP" the bit rate. I left the Audio business in 1975 because I could see the handwriting on the wall back then (I was a Mastering engineer for a Vinyl record company) and left the business entirely. After pursuing an entirely different carrier for the past 35 years, I'm trying to get back into Audio but the learning curve is VERY steep for me. I hope to use this forum as a starting point. I know nothing yet about HDtracks, but I hear that Blu-ray is far superior regarding sound quality. we'll see what happens down the road. :scratch:


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

The thing that gets me is that most people don't care. So high quality recordings, do to the power of the market place may are and will likely continue to be like laser discs. A relatively small costumer base to buy the high-end product so the price will be high and the amount of recording available will be small.


nairBd bru-ray does offer the option for far higher bitrate recordings but even DVDs will hold a little more than an hour of uncompressed 2ch 24/96 audio. So by today’s standards BD is overkill


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## redsandvb (Dec 2, 2009)

My 2cents...

If the big 'ol record companies want to get rid of CDs, I wouldn't mind...as long as they offer DRM free lossless files made from their masters (dynamically compressed as they are) and not from decoded mp3s, etc. I'd like the ability to take what I buy and if need be convert to any format, any time, etc.


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## typ44q (Apr 7, 2008)

I agree, I do not have a problem with getting rid of CD's as long as equivalent quality (or better) downloads are available. Currently I have all of my music ripped in FLAC lossless and play it through a logitech Duet. The only time I will use physical media is for SACD and DVD audio


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## ghost rider (Dec 29, 2010)

Well I was playing around today and I remastered an old LP in 24/96 PCM in wave format. I really like it. I would like to know what you guys think. I cut one track its 153 mb and 4:39 min. If anyone wants to check it out PM me with a email address.


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