# Sub for music



## bob_m (Feb 13, 2012)

Hi All,

I am looking for a new sub-woofer to replace my now defective ACI Titan which I built from a kit many years ago. I am looking for a music solution first and listen at low to moderate levels. My room is 12 x 20 and my mains are NHT Classic 3’s. I was thinking about these three:

PSA 15s
Rythmik 12 or 15 built from Kit
SVS SB-1000/2000

Form all my research I assume I cannot go wrong with either especially at the listening levels I generally use. I should also look at some of these of sealed Dayton kits folks are building over in the DIY forum but figured the Rythmik is a proven design should I go that route. Another sub I looked at was the NHT B12 (great reviews for music) but NHT is currently replacing that model and the new one will not be available until to latter in the year. 

I really like the down firming design of the PSA 15s so I am leaning that way if I don’t build a Rythmik from kit where I can use the same design. Too bad Rythmik dropped their down firing production sub. I remember reading a comment from JMan where he indicated that the Rythmik may have a more relaxed mid-bass compared to the SVS or PSA. That may actually be similar to the ACI titan that I am accustomed so I am keeping that in mind as well. 

Curious as to anyone thoughts. 

Thanks Bob


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I would not concern yourself with the term "musical sub" as if the sub is built well it will do very good at music as well as movies. I do agree that a sub for music only will not need to dig as deep but that said there is no better design that a sub that can.
SVS subs are well known to deliver smooth even bass across the frequency range. I would not worry about the debate over down firing vs front firing as again if built right it matters not. Bass is non directional and you don't nessisaraly want the floor to transmit the bass.


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## bob_m (Feb 13, 2012)

Agreed on both of your points. I only like the down firing design because of aesthetics, not because of perceived sound quality differences. Thanks


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

All good subwoofers for sure, but you might want to consider the Rythmik options first. Detail is in abundance, but perhaps the biggest thing would be the customizations possible with the various amplifier settings. Through those you can tailor the sound to be pretty much whatever you'd like it to be, and for critical music listening in particular that's quite advantageous.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Consider the HSU subwoofer also. ULS-15 MK2 is a great sealed sub that would be a stellar performer at music. I know my HSU does great but the ULS version is a smaller cabinet and higher midbass output.


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## Insearchof (Oct 21, 2014)

I'd go the Rythmik route. If you decide not to build, the LV12r can be adjusted to suit your tastes. 
For music I generally use one setting and for movies another. Imo, It is detailed and defined for music for sure. 
Some of the Hsu offerings also allow you to tweak according to your requirements (music vs HT) although I don't believe they have any with the servo control.


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

What about the RELs I have two Strata 5s and they are fantastic, and down firing though they don't make them anymore, cant comment on the others or other RELs.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Rythmik also has a cheaper "L" model. The Amp does not have the advanced options as the "F" models but you get the same Sound Quality.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/L12.html $570
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F8.html


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## bob_m (Feb 13, 2012)

I was actually looking at Rel this morning. I also noticed that PSA offers a bundle price for the anti-mode which may help with auto EQ but I don't believe you can customize the correction like you can with the Rythmiks. 

Jim, do you think you will be getting a PSA 15s in for review soon? 

Thanks -Bob


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Rels are known for good sounding subs. They are pricey though. HSU are known for good sounding subs but there are Rythmik, PSA and SVS are the other three that ring a bell. 

I have heard some Rels before out of the above have only experience with my HSU and I find it to be adequate enough for my needs. Very seamless integration into my system and packs one of a punch.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

REL subs are over priced. I've heard one and was not impressed considering what it cost. You can get more bang for buck going with HSU, SVS, or some of the others mentioned.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

bob_m said:


> Jim, do you think you will be getting a PSA 15s in for review soon?


Tom and I have actually been discussing another review, but it wouldn't be on any of the sealed units (I've already evaluated two of them). Thus far it seems as though the V1800 is the likely candidate. Until something ships I won't know for certain though.


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## bob_m (Feb 13, 2012)

Talley said:


> Rels are known for good sounding subs. They are pricey though. HSU are known for good sounding subs.


HSU has been around for a long time. I remember reading about those cylinders and folks raving over the deep bass. Also, nice HT build, you did a great job. BTW, do you miss your NHT's? I have the threes in the main room but have the zeros in a zone 2. -Bob


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

With my two RELs no EQ was required + go down to 9hz measured in my room, with careful placement.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Phillips said:


> With my two RELs no EQ was required + go down to 9hz measured in my room, with careful placement.


9Hz, but at what level though? I would be surprised if a 21" driver could do that with appreciable output, and I know REL doesn't make anything even remotely that large.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

bob_m said:


> HSU has been around for a long time. I remember reading about those cylinders and folks raving over the deep bass. Also, nice HT build, you did a great job. BTW, do you miss your NHT's? I have the threes in the main room but have the zeros in a zone 2. -Bob


I have my NHT... two are being used in my office for my wife hooked up to a cheap $250 denon with airplay. The other three are going in my living room as a center/l/r setup for my main TV w/ my x4000 that I don't use anymore.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

theJman said:


> Tom and I have actually been discussing another review, but it wouldn't be on any of the sealed units (I've already evaluated two of them). Thus far it seems as though the V1800 is the likely candidate. Until something ships I won't know for certain though.


Hopefully a v3600i or a T-18 HT! One can dream right


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

theJman said:


> 9Hz, but at what level though? I would be surprised if a 21" driver could do that with appreciable output, and I know REL doesn't make anything even remotely that large.


Yep down to 9hz they were measured at 80db. 
This was with careful placement and calibrated


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

I'm not a fan of REL. They make really nice looking cabinets for their subs but I find their price/performance ratio very lacking. They are very peaky in their response and generally do not dig very deep.


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

For music, Rythmik would be a great choice. The servo technology greatly reduces distortion and they are very nuanced and detailed as well as being "fast" and responsive. Rythmik is also a great company in terms of their customer service.

bob_m said:


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## speakerman49 (Feb 24, 2016)

Musical sub? That has been a life-long dream of mine for as long as I can remember. Honestly, have owned many subs from the likes of Hsu, SVS, Outlaw, Paradigm, Mirage, Velodyne, Acoustic Research, and etc. just to name a few. Of these mentioned, the Hsu VTF3.3 was the MOST musical sub of the bunch. However, that was until I purchased a B-stock PSA S1500. That being said, I highly recommend that the OP take a MUCH closer look at the S1500. The deal Tom V. gave me on it along with an anti-mode 8033 S II was incredible to say the least. Furthermore, Tom V. answered ALL of my questions and is a straight shooter. Right now, I have plans to order another S1500 OR maybe even (2) of them. Yes, the S1500 is that good! Especially, for musical applications. Listening to Pink Floyd's The Wall as we speak. Sounds *AMAZING*!

Cheers,

Phil


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Phillips said:


> Yep down to 9hz they were measured at 80db.
> This was with careful placement and calibrated


You have some serious room gain going on or your doing the readings wrong, not a chance the REL will dig that deep. Even their top of the line G1 is down -6dB at 15Hz


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Phillips said:


> Yep down to 9hz they were measured at 80db.
> This was with careful placement and calibrated





tonyvdb said:


> You have some serious room gain going on or your doing the readings wrong, not a chance the REL will dig that deep. Even their top of the line G1 is down -6dB at 15Hz


I think the better question to ask is "when 9hz is at 80db, what level is the rest of the system?"

I would say my sub is only good down to 22hz but it can also play 9hz at 80db but the other bass is much louder. The magic of sealed subs.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

That was my question too. 


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

The person that took the measurements used good measuring gear including calibration.

Took a lot of setting up until they both locked into the room, this is the key using the high level connection.

They are at 80db with the rest of the system at 75db.

These are fantastic musical subs set up properly, they are setup different from others so some people might get it wrong, I am more than happy with these.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

You cant defy physics, a 12" driver simply cant produce 9Hz Even my PB13U wont go that deep at any usable level and its twice the size of the G1 and ported.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> You cant defy physics, a 12" driver simply cant produce 9Hz Even my PB13U wont go that deep at any usable level and its twice the size of the G1 and ported.


That's why I expressed surprise as well. I honestly don't see the REL doing it unless Mr. Einstein changed something with physics.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

theJman said:


> That's why I expressed surprise as well. I honestly don't see the REL doing it unless Mr. Einstein changed something with physics.



Or a pair of them were fashioned into headphones?


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

These were measured with different measuring tools also different days with the same result.

With the two of them placed in both front corners with a low crossover.

I am not arguing I thought the same, but I will take it.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Do you have a screenshot? Or something to illustrate?


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

I can ask if there is a record


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

That'd be cool. 


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

Hi supplied graph, different levels were used

Each sub level was set in the 30s out of 100.


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

Hi supplied graph, different levels were used

Each sub level was set in the 30s out of 100.

Try this again


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Is that your mains included? Something is not right with that graph.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> Is that your mains included? Something is not right with that graph.


Agreed. Not sure we'll ever get to the bottom though - that graph is showing a _spike_ at 9Hz which is just not physically possible given the driver configuration, even if you factor in the low output numbers.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Also the graph above 10kHz is way to harsh, his ears will be bleeding with highs that sharp.


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

It is legit he did it at different times and days with the same result, spike at 9hz

Mains included

All measuring tools are calibrated that were used.

The treble region looks better now.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> I would not concern yourself with the term "musical sub" as if the sub is built well it will do very good at music as well as movies. I do agree that a sub for music only will not need to dig as deep but that said there is no better design that a sub that can.
> SVS subs are well known to deliver smooth even bass across the frequency range. I would not worry about the debate over down firing vs front firing as again if built right it matters not. Bass is non directional and you don't nessisaraly want the floor to transmit the bass.





bob_m said:


> Agreed on both of your points. I only like the down firing design because of aesthetics, not because of perceived sound quality differences. Thanks


A little late to the (I don't like REL) party, but I would just like to mention I chose a down-firing PSA XV15 for the express purpose of enhancing floor-borne vibration. Why? I'm on a concrete slab, which eats bass for breakfast and then some! Does it perform better than a side-firing model in that regard? I'm uncertain.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

It looks sketchy to me from 80 on down, but despite my best efforts, I can't explain even though I know it's not possible. Jim, or Tony, any idea what could be going here? Just looking for insight on what to do with unexpected results, when I measure at home, or especially another's system. 


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Im not convinced that the calibration file is right. There simply is no physical way those readings are right.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> Im not convinced that the calibration file is right. There simply is no physical way those readings are right.


+1

Something is definitely amiss, but what I can't say for certain.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Phillips said:


> Hi supplied graph, different levels were used
> 
> Each sub level was set in the 30s out of 100.
> 
> Try this again


I think this graph is upside down or just plain incorrect as home subs just do not approach that level of low frequencies. Nope not possible imo.

I must say that I have a REL and it is brilliant for music as it blends in seamlessly with the mains, like the sub was never there. It will hit just about any note in the music scale but does loose a bit as the music goes below 25hz. Like many others here, I have played with many subs and the only other sub to do this same level of integration was a small Velodyne. Now having said that, one must realize that this is my equipment in my room and is not to be considered law. The REL is built to the 9's and reeks of build quality.
For movies, the REL does fall short of rattling the rafters but it does a good job in its designed parameters. As such, this would be recommended for music lovers primarily.


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## Phillips (Aug 12, 2011)

The multiple calibration files (for multiple mics) were done at different times by Cross Spectrum.

Results the same with these multiple mics and soundcards.

The frequency response has improved (not extension wise, still 9hz) by shifting the speakers.

Comment was made RELs sometime "grip" the room and results like this can happen with careful calibration.


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## RTROSE (Dec 24, 2011)

If the OP is still in the market I second, or is it fifth the nod to the Rythmik. You won't be disappointed going this route.

Regards,

RTROSE


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## lovinthehd (Mar 17, 2012)

I was just wondering what the OP ended up getting (or not), altho I did enjoy the side conversation. The Rels may actually, with right room for cabin gain and maybe some extraneous noise (HVAC, nearby road or industry or?) hit 80dB at 9Hz, not that you'd likely know it without a measurement mic. Would like to see more measurements (assuming they're setup well), particularly of the room on its own for a starting point as well as what happens when you turn the levels up from there at 9Hz.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

All this dismay about dual sealed subs hitting 80 dB at 9 Hz is just plain silly. Has no one here ever heard of room gain? 80 dB is extremely low output when one considers there might be 15 dB+ of room gain by that point. Any sealed sub with a shallow roll off is going to be capable of doing that in a smaller sized room...its really no big deal. Also, 80 dB at 9 Hz is completely meaningless. You aren't going to hear or feel it at all. This was a very low level sweep, I'm sure the REL's will hit their limits down their at a fairly low level. I think the REL's, setup properly, probably do sound good on music. But I also agree that they are geared towards audiophiles and are extremely overpriced for the performance. I think any of the I.D. $500-$1k sealed subs would likely match or exceed them in all performance metrics. Nothing magical about a sealed sub...put a decent driver in the correct size, decently built box, match it with the correct amp, maybe toss in a bit of eq and some limiting protection. Now, getting lots of clean output from a small package is where things get costly. Course, a nice looking sub can be important as well, but honestly none of this, other than attempting to get lots of output out of a tiny box, is very costly.


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## Jay Compton (Sep 8, 2016)

I am using two SVS SB2000's with good results in my room.


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