# Need a 10" or 12" sealed sub recommendation for listening to music: Rythmik F12 vs others?



## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Folks,
Hello to all - after a long time.

I'm based in Bangalore, India and need a 10" or 12" sealed sub recommendation available in India.

I'm considering the Rythmik F12 vs other subs (Neumann KH750, SVS SB1000 Pro etc) and would like to hear from you all (in light of my criteria detailed below)
1. Which other subs should I consider other than these two?
2. Which is the best sub in the 10"-12" sealed category for my budget of US$1000?
3. Which of these should I go for (in light of the below factors) and why?

It would be predominantly for music and I would prefer those with XLR input but need not have DSP, master/slave or bass management.

Here are the details that may be relevant for you all to make a recommendation (I did read the sticky and FAQ):

Location: Bengaluru, India
Video: LG 70" 70UH6350
Audio: Marantz AV7705 connected via XLR to 5 channels of Neumann KH310
Sources: Streaming + Downloaded content on HDD - Played via a PC

1. Budget: US$900 to $1000 (excluding delivery and customs). The two options I have shortlisted are available at about $1350 to $1400 (including delivery and customs)
2. Size requirements/limits: 10" or 12" sealed sub -
3. Room dimensions: L 28' x W 10.5' x H min 8' - max 10.5" (sloping roof like an Attic space)
Acoustics: Walls and Ceiling: treated with 2" Rockwool and 1/4" carpets, Floors: 1/2" Carpet+Felt backing over marble flooring, Windows and doors: curtained by dual layer pseudo-leather curtains
4. Primary uses: 80% Music, 20% Movies or TV shows
5. Listening habits: Won't be listening at really high volumes, need not be too high on SPL, needs to be tight and controlled for music.
6. Appearance requirements: Interested in function over form. Sub need not be huge or compact - moderate sizes would be perfect. Won't be paying for fancy finishes or brand names etc.
7. Timeframe: In the next few months - not in a rush but wont take forever either

After reading various threads and mulling it all over the past few months, the list is now down to:
1. Neumann KH750 DSP:
Driver: 10" Ultra long excursion woofer with Extremely Linear Force Factor
Power: 256 W
Max. SPL in half space at 3% THD at 1m (averaged between 50 Hz and 100 Hz): 105.0 dB SPL
Frequency response: 18 - 750 Hz (+3 dB)
Pros:
1. comes highly recommended by musicians and studio professionals
2. may be the paper woofer would match well with my existing 5.0 setup of Neumann KH310
3. the overhead of customs and transportation is just 10% over the base price

Cons:
1. seems to have been designed for small rooms,
2. wondering if the 10" driver / amp would be sufficient for my space and listening needs
3. it has 3 features I probably dont need: DSP, 2.1 bass management and Digital Input (and therefore it seems to be costing more than other comparable 10" sealed sub with similar power and input options)

2. Rythmik F12 (Matte Black with A370XLR3):
Driver: 12" black/silver anodized aluminum high excursion driver
Power: 370 W with Direct Servo technology
Maximum SPL: 105.0 dB
Frequency response: 18 - 750 Hz (+3 dB)

Pros:
1. Comes highly recommended online from supposed audiophiles - but have not seen much feedback from music/recording professionals
2. Has all the features I need and nothing I don't.

Cons:
1. wondering if the Aluminum woofer would match well with my existing 5.0 setup of Neumann KH310
2. wondering if the Direct Servo technology is a boon or a bane
3. after my best negotiations the price is still 45% over and above the US retail price ...
this works to about 10 to 15% higher than the usual markup here for other imported subwoofers bringing the cost to about 5% more than Neumann after factoring in everything

Thanks in advance for all responses and recommendations.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

The Rythmik. Cone material irrelevant at sub frequencies. The servo is what allows it to perform so well (lower distortion at lowest frequencies) and go well below 20hz, a true "sub". My bought in 2004 pair of Rythmiks still work flawlessly. All others subsequent, no issues. Good enough that I incorporate Rythmik into my products as requested/needed (so I come in with that bias).
With regards to mark up/difficulty obtaining etc, outside my scope, but of course relevant.

cheers


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

When you say you incorporate it in your products - what do you mean?

and while it is clear that Rythmik servo tech is very popular - a lot of the online talk sounds like Apple fan clubs...

Therefore I would like to be more objective: can any one point me to the measured comparisons of the distortion of a F12 with other subs - in the same room with all other parameters being the same?

or is "fast and tight" etc a subjective measure of listener bias?


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

intgenx said:


> When you say you incorporate it in your products - what do you mean?
> 
> and while it is clear that Rythmik servo tech is very popular - a lot of the online talk sounds like Apple fan clubs...
> 
> ...


The terms fast and tight are subjectively used by audiophiles and have no meaning. Any sub can sound bad and boomy if put in the wrong area of the room be it ported or sealed. I own the ported version, the LV12R which was replaced by the LV12F..exact same subs except the port has been moved from the back to the front. I dialed that sub in perfectly for music and you cannot tell that its a ported sub. Today 's ported sub sound just as articulate as their sealed counterparts. You cant go wrong with either SVS or Rythmik but I too would choose the Rythmik over the SVS as it plays louder and deeper and little more controlled then the SVS.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

intgenx said:


> When you say you incorporate it in your products - what do you mean?
> 
> and while it is clear that Rythmik servo tech is very popular - a lot of the online talk sounds like Apple fan clubs...
> 
> ...


I make loudspeakers, link in signature.
I don't pay any attention to online fanboyism.
Rythmik Audio F12G Direct Servo Subwoofer In-Depth Review
Rythmik L12 Subwoofer Review
CEA-2010 results
Fast and tight are subjective prose by non-technical folks. The source/room response at listener determines SQ. Multiple subs are better than one. They don't have to be the same. One Rythmik can extend bass > 20hz with plenty output for most small - medium rooms, additional one or two well placed dirt cheap subs can provide spatially averaged smoothing, i.e "fast, tight, smooth" etc bass at more than just one spot...if that matters.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Thank you so much for those details... I have read all the links... Thank you again...
would you do me a favor and take a look at the specs of the Neumann KH750 and the controls there on and see how it compares to the Rythmik... I'm still torn between the two.


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## Da Wiz (May 8, 2019)

Hsu Research VTF-3 Mk 5 HP (if available in India). Under $900 in US (plus shipping). Reproduces 10 Hz with POWER in my room (can't hear it, but it moves air like a fan!). Powerful bass at 16 Hz. Excellent pitch differentiation. 2 Ports with 2 Port Plugs of solid closed-cell foam. Allows you to run with 2 open ports, 1 open and 1 closed port, or 2 closed ports (sealed box). So you can have 1 subwoofer with 3 possible acoustic alignments. This means if sealed box is not the best option for your room, you can experiment with 1 or 2 open ports. The large size of this sub means that it has very substantial bass output below 20 Hz even with both ports closed.


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## Hoosierdaddy (Oct 28, 2012)

Da Wiz said:


> Hsu Research VTF-3 Mk 5 HP (if available in India).


This sub is a BEAST! Either The Hsu or The Rythmik would be a great choice.

As far as The Neumann is concerned, I have no personal experience with it, so I could not offer an opinion on it's performance. I will say I trust the company's reputation. They make some of the finest microphones and studio monitors in the world. They claim a minus 3 dB point of 18 Hz. Which would be truly amazing performance for a 10" driver. The question would be, is it capable of delivering 18 Hz with any kind of power or slam. I'm not saying it isn't possible mind you. I have heard 10" car subs which delivered 18 Hz with tooth rattling authority. But usually in multi driver arrays.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Excellent amount of information in your post @intgenx. That helps us a lot when trying to make recommendations and suggestions.



intgenx said:


> I'm considering the Rythmik F12 vs other subs (Neumann KH750, SVS SB1000 Pro etc) and would like to hear from you all (in light of my criteria detailed below)


Those are all likely to be good choices, but the Neumann has a disadvantage; driver size. Your room is around 2700 cubic feet which is probably pushing the limits of a 12" sealed subwoofer, so for sure a 10" is going to struggle. Unless they offer something with a larger driver the KH750 may not be a good choice.



intgenx said:


> 1. Which other subs should I consider other than these two?


What else is available in your area? Most of the people reading this will be in the US and won't be familiar with the products in India. If you can provide some company names maybe there are other options available.



intgenx said:


> 1. Comes highly recommended online from supposed audiophiles - but have not seen much feedback from music/recording professionals


Real audiophiles recommend them as well. I've reviewed 4 Rythmik subwoofers - and for a few years owned a different model I hadn't reviewed as my personal reference subwoofer - and everyone one of them was legit.




Hoosierdaddy said:


> They claim a minus 3 dB point of 18 Hz. Which would be truly amazing performance for a 10" driver. The question would be, is it capable of delivering 18 Hz with any kind of power or slam.


"truly amazing" would be one way to describe it, "highly optimistic" could be another.  As you alluded to, without quoting an output level the -3dB point isn't very relevant. A single 10" driver in a small sealed cabinet can't really provide enough air movement to effectively hit 18Hz with any worthwhile output, a problem exacerbated by a good sized room like the OP has. Even with the significantly smaller cabin volume of a car what you almost certainly heard wasn't 18Hz output, but probably something at least 10Hz higher. Car SPL competitions don't typically chase very low frequencies, they go for all out volume instead. The sub-20Hz tones are extremely difficult to produce at volume so they tend to forgo those and concentrate on the higher octaves.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Thank you so much @theJman 
One of the dealers in India is offering a Dynaudio BM9S and the price point is better than Rythmik F12 or the Neumann KH750

Other options available in India include Sonodyne, Behringer, Alto, PSB, Yamaha, Genelec, KRK, Samson, Cerwin Vega, Focal, ADAM Audio, Focal


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

intgenx said:


> Thank you so much @theJman
> One of the dealers in India is offering a Dynaudio BM9S and the price point is better than Rythmik F12 or the Neumann KH750
> 
> Other options available in India include Sonodyne, Behringer, Alto, PSB, Yamaha, Genelec, KRK, Samson, Cerwin Vega, Focal, ADAM Audio, Focal


If JMan says a 12 sealed sub js going to struggle given your room size, you should seriously consider upping your budget and go for a ported sub espcially for Rythmik. I own both PSB and Rythmik ported subs in different rooms and I have them dialed in for both music and HT and you cannot tell they are ported. Audiophiles tend to cling on to old and outdated ideas and information which is no longer relevant in this day and age. The last thing you want to say or feel is , I wished I upped my budget a little bit more to get the bass response I want.

I have 2 old PSB subsonic6 in my second system pulling duty in a great room, I may buy a 3rd to even out the bass response even more in that room. Im ordering a 2nd Rythmik L12-F for my main system in the basement.

Whatever you do, dont go for a 10 inch sub no matter what the manufacturer claims.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Dynaudio makes very good products, probably overpriced for what you get but still nice. The BM9S has a 10" driver though so you're back to a subwoofer unlikely to satisfy your needs. At least they appear to be accurate with their spec's, quoting the -3dB point as 29Hz (which is reasonable for a small 10" sealed sub). While that might be alright for a lot of music genre's that simply won't cut it for HT. I would have suggested their BM14S instead but looking at the spec's shows maybe they aren't honest all the time; Dynaudio is stating a -3dB point of 18Hz for that one. For a 15" sealed that would be pretty solid - assuming the output level is good of course - but for a 12" it's not terrible realistic.

Sonodyne and Focal don't appear to have anything that would work. Yamaha and Cerwin Vega are not known for their subwoofers so you might want to skip both of those as well.

Behringer and Alto make products that support the recording industry and live music reproduction like DJ's, they don't do 2 channel or HT.

The KRK S12.4 might work. It also has the alignment 3db mentions, ported. That will give more output and could prove beneficial given your circumstances. Like KRK, ADAM is another studio monitor type of company and their SUB12 could work. They suggest it's for near or mid-field though, so probably not the best choice for your situation. The SUB15 is likely a better option. You could go all out and get their SUB2100 if you really wanted to shake things up. Note that companies who make products for studios don't focus much attention on homeowners so some controls and features you'd expect on a sub designed for a residential environment won't be available on studio products. Genelec is another studio-focused company but they don't offer anything that would work.

What about JL Audio, are they available in your area?


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Thank you so much for the detailed response on each of those brands @theJman

and obviously PSB must be different from the PSA (Power Sound Audio) that I have heard mentioned a lot...
PSA, HSU dont seem to be available in India - but SVS and JL Audio seem to be - will look into those two...

I'm not sure if it is ok to post external ecommerce site links here - but here are some of the options available in India






Subwoofers - Home







shop.avenuesound.in













Buy Subwoofers Online at Best Price | Bajaao


Buy Subwoofers online at the best Price in India. Shop from a wide range of Subwoofers at Bajaao.com. ✯ Free Delivery ✯ Easy Returns ✯ Get Best Deals




www.bajaao.com













Sub-woofers


Buy Sub-woofers Online | Sub-woofers Prices in India | Sudeep Audio India



www.sudeepaudio.com


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

I totally missed PSB. I reviewed a 5.1 system of theirs about 3 years ago and the sub for that was the SubSeries 350. It was well built, had a nice appearance and was very precise but it lacked a bit of depth in my opinion. If you can get their SubSeries 450 that could be a good choice. It has a 12" driver with dual passive radiators so it actually works like a ported subwoofer. It's very small so it should fit into any decor.

That first link you posted shows Rythmik and since you're using it for 80% music one of those should be your first choice. They have several models that would work; G22, L22, E15, E15HP2 and F15. They're all listed as "special order" however so that means you might have more of a challenge to get those, but it would be worth the effort. I've reviewed four of their models - and even owned one of their subs as my personal reference unit for a few years - so I know those products well.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Velodyne, REL, SVS also seem available in India - should I consider those and if so which models?






Digital Drive Plus Subwoofer Series – Velodyne Acoustics







www.velodyneacoustics.com




Velodyne also has a Servo controlled sub - how does that compare to the Rythmik F12
and I like that they too offer the XLR inputs

and should I consider a wifi sub for flexibility in placement?
would there be a lag or synchronization issues with the mains being wired if the sub were wireless?

The REL that is within my budget is a 10" - therefore should I drop that from the running?

SVS is available but they are still selling the older SB1000/2000 with huge markups and the newer SB1000/2000 Pro isnt yet available.
If I do go with the SVS - should I go for the higher powered 2000?

BTW: Thank you all for all your responses @theJman @3dbinCanada @Hoosierdaddy @Dawiz and @ajinfla


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

If the only REL within your budget is the 10" version than you should probably skip it. The company is known for sound quality - so they do have a big market in music lovers - but I still suspect that will be too small.

I published an article on the original PB-1000 about 8 years ago and currently have a PB-1000 Pro in for review and from that I can tell you the Pro would be the model to go for. If they aren't available now, and won't be for awhile, than you might want to look at different manufacturers (the selling vendor likely has to clear existing stock of the non-Pro models before getting his allotment of the new Pro).

Velodyne was one of the original amplified subwoofers on the market and back then they were widely considered the best. Sadly the company drifted off course and lost their momentum and actually exited the market. I know the name and patents were bought by another organization who was going to bring them back, and I believe the Deep Blue line was their first product. It looked rather generic and nondescript though so it wasn't really much of a re-entry into the market. Looking at their website I see the MicroVee is listed, as is their flagship product the Direct Drive. The Impact series looks new to me, but to be honest when the company started fading I stopped paying attention to them.

I don't know if there's any new tech in the DD series but if there is that could be worth checking out. Those were very highly rated; they were extremely expensive, but excellent performers. If it's the same product they sold 10 years ago it would still be a very good subwoofer, but I wouldn't pay a premium price for it. Those would be at least one generation behind - maybe two - so to me it would only be a worthwhile investment if the cost was low.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

I think Rythmik F12 is out of the running temporarily because the local dealer has increased his price by about $650 after I accepted the earlier negotiated price.


That works out to a margin of $1010 over and above the US base price...

For just a bit more I could possibly take a much deserved vacation and also visit Rythmik at Cedar Park, TX 78613


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

intgenx said:


> I think Rythmik F12 is out of the running temporarily because the local dealer has increased his price by about $650 after I accepted the earlier negotiated price.
> 
> 
> That works out to a margin of $1010 over and above the US base price...
> ...


Rythmik is an internet direct company...why not order from them directly? Between PSB and REL, i would go with PSB anyday as their performances are equal to REL but with PSB costing significantly less than REL.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

I'm based in India and Rythmik has officially authorised a distributor

The usual markups for imported electronics like TV or speakers in India is 30 to 40% at the most including all taxes, duties and transportation. A 101% markup feels like price gouging. I wonder if Rythmik HQ or Brian would have something to say about this.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Brian may not be aware, it might be worth asking him.


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## Ibjb74 (May 5, 2021)

I'm shocked no one has mentioned what I believe to be the absolute best bang for your buck sub on the market the RSL Speedwoofer 10s. Just Google the Roger's Soundlabs 10s and look at the review after review after review. Sound and Vision says when comparing their reference subs the 12-inch SVS PC-Ultra ($1,199 in 2004) and the 15-inch Hsu Research VTF-15H MK2 ($899), "the pair of these **** near matched the audible and tactile impact of either the Hsu or the SVS when used alone. Were there limitations to what they could do? Sure—the Speedwoofer pair couldn’t go quite as deep as the big boys, especially when playing some organ samples that dip below 20 hertz. But, truthfully, it’s rare to find bass this deep, and given the difference in cost and size between the Speedwoofer and my reference subs, that’s a pretty reasonable trade-off. The price is $399ea or $79for a pair and I'm here to tell you I've owned 7 different subs over the past 5yrs, 3 12" subs, 1 10" sub, 1 dual 10" (dual active driver) sub, one 8" sub and 1 dual 8" (also dual active) sub and the only ones I've kept and refused to sell is the Speedwoofer 10s and the jamo D4 (dual 8s). You probably won't find the jamo for sale anywhere but I'm sure you can order the RSL from just about anywhere. Hope that helped.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

The OP is in India, a place RSL doesn't ship to.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

I love the alternate suggestions ... especially considering the huge cost differential - since it looks like the Rythmik F12 is shooting well past my budget of $1350...


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

I will somehow find a way to import into India the best sealed 12" sub (preferably with XLR input)...
The US price point has to be below at or below the Rythmik F12 (that is < US$1000, and my total budget including taxes, customs duties and transportation is about $1400)
Therefore please keep the suggestions coming...

Also I heard that the balanced input is irrelevant as the signal is unbalanced within the amplifier anyways... therefore do I really need a balanced input (although the ones with balanced input do allow me flexibility of placement later - if I have to place it far away from the AV processor and they do look more professional and the studio look is more to my liking than the ones designed to look good for the home)


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

Why are you stuck on the idea of a sealed sub?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

intgenx said:


> I will somehow find a way to import into India the best sealed 12" sub (preferably with XLR input)...


If you have a method of importing products that goes around standard distribution channels than RSL does become a viable option. It's a very good subwoofer, especially for the price, so it's one to seriously consider. When they're back in stock, of course.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

3dbinCanada said:


> Why are you stuck on the idea of a sealed sub?


I like the sound of sealed subs - especially as the bulk of my listening is music and I'm not an SPL freak. 
I do have a locally made ported sub... not too thrilled with the port.
My main speakers are also sealed 3 way active.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

With regards to sound quality the RSL is up there with sealed subwoofers so it might still be worth considering.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

intgenx said:


> I like the sound of sealed subs - especially as the bulk of my listening is music and I'm not an SPL freak.
> I do have a locally made ported sub... not too thrilled with the port.
> My main speakers are also sealed 3 way active.


Not all ported subs are equal nor do they sound the same. I have an entry level Rythmik LV12-R which is their entry level ported sub and it will go toe to toe in terms of sound quality and bass articulation with any sealed sub in its price class. Its just that tight.

Now if the F12 is out of your price range, go to the L12. 






Rythmik Audio F12G vs Rel T9i - Speakers • Canuck Audio Mart Hifi and Audio Forum







www.canuckaudiomart.com


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Martin Logan 1100x definitely would be a great option but it works out to be about USD 1800 here and my budget was USD 1350 (the price I had negotiated earlier for the Rythmik F12 which now they have increased to USD 1500 and as a result of the unpleasant experience with the local dealer, I have decided not to go for it)

Any other suggestions?

if not..

The Neumann KH750 is USD 1350 and still within my budget and have bought my other 5 Neumann KH310 speakers from the same dealer.

Other than it being a 10" and me not really keen on the biggest SPL...is there any other reason I should not buy this?

My sound treated room is 28 x 10 x 10... Although the listening area is only the middle 6 feet.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

intgenx said:


> Martin Logan 1100x definitely would be a great option but it works out to be about USD 1800 here and my budget was USD 1350 (the price I had negotiated earlier for the Rythmik F12 which now they have increased to USD 1500 and as a result of the unpleasant experience with the local dealer, I have decided not to go for it)
> 
> Any other suggestions?
> 
> ...


Do you have any PSB dealers your way?


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

I have ordered the Neumann KH 750.



If any of you are interested do let me know if I should post a review (not that my opinion will carry much weight as I have not really heard, measured or compared too many subs)



I would have liked to order the Martin Logan Dynamo 1100x, but it was 25 percent over my budget.



Seriously considered the Arendal 1723 Sub1S, Rythmik F12, SVS SB2000 Pro, but dropped them either due to negative sales experience or being over budget or the fact that they are made in China.



Unfortunately in India, most products sold don't have a decent return policy or try and buy schemes. Amazon or Flipkart (Walmart India) and a few other online sellers do allow returns but such specialized equipment are extremely rare on these platforms.





Thank you everyone for all your suggestions and discussions on my post.

Wishing you all a lifetime of great audio visual experiences.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

I would encourage you to post your opinion. Owner experiences help others who might be looking at the same product.

Are you sure Neumann is not made in China? Most home audio equipment is made partially or entirely there so it's likely at least some part of that sub is as well.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Ok .. will post a review and pics once fully setup. Should it be a different thread?

I believe Neumann KH 750 is designed in Germany and made in the Czech Republic. It is possible that some or most of the electronics are from China... But at least it doesn't carry a "made in China" tag.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Thanks folks... will post my reviews and pics once it arrives and gets set up.



My bass management is being done in the AV processor.... Marantz AV 7705. Room EQ will also be done by the same.


Will try to test both without any EQ and after the EQ.



I hope the sub won't seem a bit under powered... Considering 5 nos 8 inch woofers and a lone 10 inch to carry the 20hz to 80hz load and all I hope for is that the SPL is sufficient for the listening area which is just the middle 7 feet of a 28 foot long room.

BTW:

Should I set the sub crossover to 60hz, 80hz or 100hz?

My 5 speakers are rated to go as low as 34hz. In fact I hadn't planned on buying a sub since I figured the speakers go low enough but I later found them clipping often in bass heavy music like hip-hop. Therefore decided to go in for a sub to give the speakers more head room (or rather tail room in this case ).


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