# In need of a little acoustical advice. Room layout included.



## Guest (Jan 24, 2007)

Hi, I have recently built a dedicated theater room which I enjoy tremendously, but I would really love some input and advice on some things that I could do to make my listening experience even better. I have included the floor plan for the room in this thread, so as to give you a better idea what I am facing when trying to improve the sound quality in this space. The layout isn't ideal, but it was all I had to work with in my budget. 

My biggest issue is that I have far too little bass in the room for what I was expecting when I purchased my sub. The Velodyne is rated at 1000 watts with a 15" woofer, so I am a bit surprised that I am not getting the response I expected. This could be a very general question, as I am new to this whole level of critical listening, but I "feel" something is off. After reviewing the room and equipment, if anyone has any opinion or comments to make on this issue , or my system in general, please feel free to share it. I appreciate any advice or constructive criticism. All are welcome. Thanks!

My Room










My Equipment

Infocus IN76 DLP Projector
92" Screen Innovations Fixed Screen
Harmon Kardon 635 A/V Receiver
Control4 Home Theater Controller
Sony DVP-CX995V 400 Disc DVD Changer
Pioneer PD-F1009 301-Disc Changer 
Bell ExpressVu 9200 / 9220 Dual HDTV Tuner PVR
Xbox 360 (patched into home network)
Athena Audition AS-B2 Speakers (1 pair)
Athena Audition AS-R2 Bi-pole Surrounds (1 pair)
Athena Audition AS-C1 Center Channel Speaker
Velodyne DLS-5000R Subwoofer
Furman Elite 15 Power Conditioner (Components)
Furman AC-215 Compact Power Conditioner (Projector)


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2007)

delete


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Hi George and sorry for the inconvenience... undoubtedly you missed this part of the PM we sent you after registration...



> *THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT PRIVATE MESSAGE - - - PLEASE TAKE A MOMENT AND READ IT COMPLETELY! THANKS!*
> 
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I have upgraded your account... you can edit your post and include a link/URL if you so desire now.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2007)

Oh thanks! I just sent an email requesting this. Sorry for the memory lapse. I read the warning, when I first logged on, but after I wrote my post, it never occurred to me as I hit send. :coocoo:


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

Hi George,
Have you used an SPL meter to set the balance between speakers and sub., or just the Receivers auto setup?
Are you using bass traps? do you have any acoustic treatments?..
A little more info. would help in sorting out your problem..


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Gee George... you wrote a lot for it not to get posted... I hate that. We may have to look at an alternative for slowing down spammers. I know a lot of members may forget.

Are you familiar with REW (Room EQ Wizard)? I think the first thing to do would be make sure your levels are correct, as Prof. suggests. Then I think you should download the latest version of REW and let's measure your response. We may very well see the problem and be able to address it better.


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## BoomieMCT (Dec 11, 2006)

Is this room above or below ground? I'm a big believer in the value of room treatments and proper EQ'ing. I'm going to quote from bpape from another thread as to the methodology to address your problem.



bpape said:


> - Deal with what you can first via placement of seating, speakers and sub.
> - Treat the room to deal with modal issues and to bring overall decay time into place using broadband treatments
> - Use tuned absorbers if feasible to deal with narrow, more stubborn issues
> - Use EQ to deal with the last few peaks in response.
> ...


Have you tried moving your sub around? Moving it closer or further from the wall? Moving to a different corner? A Velodyne DLS-5000R should rock that room like no one's business.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2007)

Prof. said:


> Hi George,
> Have you used an SPL meter to set the balance between speakers and sub., or just the Receivers auto setup?
> Are you using bass traps? do you have any acoustic treatments?..
> A little more info. would help in sorting out your problem..


I have used the auto setup and my home theater guy did check the levels a few months ago and said it was good... but I still don't feel that punch I hoped I would. My bookshelf speakers are setup as LARGE as well as my rear bipoles (which seems a bit strange as they have small 5" drivers), I am going out to buy my own Radio Shack SPL meter and try the REW software with it. Hopefully the stats that I get from that will give someone with good knowledge of the software a good idea where the room/or equipment setup is lacking.

I haven't any bass traps or sound absorbers, although I have seen a few good diy projects that will be wife friendly in the looks department.  Although I am unsure where to begin placing them.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2007)

BoomieMCT said:


> Is this room above or below ground? I'm a big believer in the value of room treatments and proper EQ'ing. I'm going to quote from bpape from another thread as to the methodology to address your problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you tried moving your sub around? Moving it closer or further from the wall? Moving to a different corner? A Velodyne DLS-5000R should rock that room like no one's business.


Hi, Boomie. Thanks for the response. My room is inthe basement with concrete up to 2/3 of the wall behind the drywall. I haven't moved the sub too much yet, just where the theater guys placed it, but now I want to tune it to my ears..


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## BoomieMCT (Dec 11, 2006)

George said:


> My bookshelf speakers are setup as LARGE as well as my rear bipoles (which seems a bit strange as they have small 5" drivers)


Have you tried setting them as SMALL? Set as they are, your reciever might be trying to send low frequency information to the bookshelves that it should be sending to the sub.

Also, basement rooms (like mine too) are notorious for having nasty axial modes. Treatments will go a long way there.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

George said:


> My bookshelf speakers are setup as LARGE as well as my rear bipoles (which seems a bit strange as they have small 5" drivers), .


I think that might be your problem...
I tried setting my bookshelf speakers and side dipoles to LARGE at one time and found that the bass was almost non existant, particularly the mid to lower bass..
I finished up setting them all to SMALL, with a crossover to the sub at 90Hz..


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## basementjack (Sep 18, 2006)

When you say it doens't have that punch you expected, can you elaborate on what you mean by that?


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## adogand6kids (Jul 29, 2006)

George,

When you set your speakers to large, the processing in your receiver sends the full audio signal to your speakers (everything from 0 Hz to 20 kHz). This may be why your sub is not "rocking" your room. If you set your speakers to small, then the bass management function of your receiver will send all audio signals above the "cutoff level" to your speakers and all audio signals below the cutoff to your sub. Depending on your receiver, you either get to select the cutoff level, or some receivers have only one set cutoff at 80 Hz. Set all your speakers to "small" and if you get the choice of setting a cutoff, set it to 80 or 90 Hz. Then buy a RadioShack or similiar SPL meter. Use the SPL meter (located at ear height at the main listening position) to match the levels of all your speakers. Then use it to set the level of the sub. I personally recommend setting the sub level so the sub test tone reads about 3-5 decibels louder on the SPL meter than the comparison test tone (usually the left front speaker). This is done to compensate for the fact that low frequency sounds just "sound quieter" than high frequency sounds. After you get that done, if it still doesn't sound right, then send us a diagram of how you have all your components connected and try taking some room measurements with REW.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2007)

BoomieMCT said:


> Have you tried setting them as SMALL? Set as they are, your reciever might be trying to send low frequency information to the bookshelves that it should be sending to the sub.
> 
> Also, basement rooms (like mine too) are notorious for having nasty axial modes. Treatments will go a long way there.


Yes, this is my fear. I was confused as what to do about the LARGE/SMALL setting as I was getting different advice from manufacturers. Athena said that the bookshelf speakers should be run as large as they are capable... so they say. 6" drivers did make me wonder. And the auto EQ on the Harmon set them as large as well. BUT it didn't make any sense to me for the speakers to be set that way. 

My next step is going to be locating a SPL meter from Radio Shack aka "The Source". I went to one store today to buy it, but the guys at this particular one near me, hadn't the foggiest what I was talking about. Anyhow, there is one downtown where I have actually seen them on display, and will attempt to go there tomorrow and start the tests. I will go this route and then perhaps on to some treatments if need be.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2007)

Prof. said:


> I think that might be your problem...
> I tried setting my bookshelf speakers and side dipoles to LARGE at one time and found that the bass was almost non existant, particularly the mid to lower bass..
> I finished up setting them all to SMALL, with a crossover to the sub at 90Hz..


That is what I am finding for sure. I am going to do the setup setting them all to small and then do the EQ manually with an SPL meter.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2007)

basementjack said:


> When you say it doens't have that punch you expected, can you elaborate on what you mean by that?


Hi, I would describe punch as thuds in movies/music that you can feel in your chest. My best analogy I can think of off the top of my head is I felt it in the movie theater while watching Resident Evil 2, when the "Nemesis" character is walking toward the police station. It was a resounding thud with each step. But upon watching it at home with my setup, I found the bass in this one spot that I remembered severely lacking. Almost non existent. I kept waiting for that "punch" but it did not come.

I hope that helps explain a bit better what I mean.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2007)

adogand6kids said:


> George,
> 
> When you set your speakers to large, the processing in your receiver sends the full audio signal to your speakers (everything from 0 Hz to 20 kHz). This may be why your sub is not "rocking" your room. If you set your speakers to small, then the bass management function of your receiver will send all audio signals above the "cutoff level" to your speakers and all audio signals below the cutoff to your sub. Depending on your receiver, you either get to select the cutoff level, or some receivers have only one set cutoff at 80 Hz. Set all your speakers to "small" and if you get the choice of setting a cutoff, set it to 80 or 90 Hz. Then buy a RadioShack or similiar SPL meter. Use the SPL meter (located at ear height at the main listening position) to match the levels of all your speakers. Then use it to set the level of the sub. I personally recommend setting the sub level so the sub test tone reads about 3-5 decibels louder on the SPL meter than the comparison test tone (usually the left front speaker). This is done to compensate for the fact that low frequency sounds just "sound quieter" than high frequency sounds. After you get that done, if it still doesn't sound right, then send us a diagram of how you have all your components connected and try taking some room measurements with REW.


I will check out my manual again for these settings, thank you for the much appreciated step by step approach to doing this. It can be a bit overwhelming, so much to check. I hope no one will mind some inevitable questions once I start using the REW software. I am quite looking forward to using it though.


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## basementjack (Sep 18, 2006)

Ok George, I have some advice for you...

Ok first up, the large small thing...

I did extensive testing with my reciever to figure out what was going on, yours might be different, but these are things to look for...

Large/small is misleading.
It should be labled:
Do not use crossover/Use Crossover.
In Large, not only is the full 20-20 signal going to the speaker, but none of it is getting routed to the woofer - This became apparent to me when I'd play content and my woofer didn't turn on. 
It was even more confusing, becuase the .1 track in a 5.1 movie Does turn the woofer on.

(BTW, my reciever has a MAX mode, where the sub is always given the lower 100hz, even if the fronts are set to LARGE check to see if yours does too...)

ther other option is Small, but as I said, it should be labeled "use crossover" You might have huge speakers that go down to 35 hz, but you'd still want to cross them over and let the sub take over at some point.

There is a common belief that asking a driver to do 20-80 AND 80-xx is just asking too much of a driver, and that if you can route 20-80 to your sub, the 80-xx will improve as a result..

ok now on to the bass suggestion...
The phase of your subs must be in alignment with the phase of your front drivers...
if the phase is 180 degrees off, then the sub will cancel the fronts.
if the phase is 90 degrees off, then the output will be at 50% of max
if the phase is in alignment, then the output will be max


you tune the bass by putting on something that has some bass output that covers the crossover region - this could be a tone, but music with LF content works also...
with this playing, adjust the variable phase on your subwoofer until the bass is the loudest.
If you dont have a variable phase on your sub, you can achieve the same thing by adjusting the distance of your sub in the speaker setup of your receiver- distance is used by the reciever to set delay time, and delaying the signal is the same as adjusting the phase. the distance you end up with may be way off from reality (Ie it might show 27 feet when the sub is only 10 feet away) - this is ok. What is important is that you are aligning the signal so that the resulting pressure wave from all your front drivers is in sync.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

basementjack said:


> distance is used by the reciever to set delay time, and delaying the signal is the same as adjusting the phase. the distance you end up with may be way off from reality (Ie it might show 27 feet when the sub is only 10 feet away) - this is ok. What is important is that you are aligning the signal so that the resulting pressure wave from all your front drivers is in sync.


I concur...This was one area that I had problems with...The Receiver was setting distances different than the measured distance to the speakers, and it wasn't until I discovered that it's also taking into account time delay, that I ever got it to sound right..

I would also advise you to go into all your manual settings after the receiver has set them automatically, just to make sure everything is set right..

Another area to check is your spatial settings ie delays for fronts, relative to distance from the front wall, and delays for surround speakers..
With these set right, it can make a huge difference to the projected sound..

Good luck with it all...


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## Derek (Apr 29, 2006)

I would change all your speaker settings to small. Next try sliding that sub about 6 ft towards the couch. Get it out of the corner. 
What are the output settings on the reciever and sub? Are they both turned down low? Is one low and the other maxed out? 

I'd also get some absorbtion at the first reflection points. Your main speakers are against the walls which will reflect and cause a blurred image. Rigid fiberglass or GIK panels will help this immensely.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2007)

Derek said:


> I would change all your speaker settings to small. Next try sliding that sub about 6 ft towards the couch. Get it out of the corner.
> What are the output settings on the reciever and sub? Are they both turned down low? Is one low and the other maxed out?
> 
> I'd also get some absorbtion at the first reflection points. Your main speakers are against the walls which will reflect and cause a blurred image. Rigid fiberglass or GIK panels will help this immensely.


OK, I have done some experimenting. After trying all suggestions, my system sounds very crisp, almost achingly so. Thank you all for the points and suggestions made. I think my room is the trouble; more exact my listening position. I took a walk around my room after the tweaking was finished, and this is what I find: the bass sounds AMAZING in every spot in the room except the main listening position in the center. How wonderful. If I want to watch my movies while circling the circumference of the room, my system sounds A-1. Now for anyone out there knowing what this is symptomatic of, please point me in the right direction. 

The bass response is shaking things in every spot except the center position where the main listening position is, rendering very lack luster and almost non existent low frequency. All the speakers are now set correctly, I manually adjusted each one according to its size and limitations as I did with the sub. Full frequency on the sub, but 80 Hz on the receiver. Actually changing the cross over has little effect on the frequency in the "dead" position. There is none to speak of.

Help... :rolleyesno:


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## LewisCobb (Jan 4, 2007)

George said:


> OK, I have done some experimenting. After trying all suggestions, my system sounds very crisp, almost achingly so. Thank you all for the points and suggestions made. I think my room is the trouble; more exact my listening position. I took a walk around my room after the tweaking was finished, and this is what I find: the bass sounds AMAZING in every spot in the room except the main listening position in the center. How wonderful. If I want to watch my movies while circling the circumference of the room, my system sounds A-1. Now for anyone out there knowing what this is symptomatic of, please point me in the right direction.
> 
> The bass response is shaking things in every spot except the center position where the main listening position is, rendering very lack luster and almost non existent low frequency. All the speakers are now set correctly, I manually adjusted each one according to its size and limitations as I did with the sub. Full frequency on the sub, but 80 Hz on the receiver. Actually changing the cross over has little effect on the frequency in the "dead" position. There is none to speak of.
> 
> Help... :rolleyesno:



Hi George - greetings from New Brunswick. I have been looking around for a SPL meter and can't find one at the "source". Did you get one at a real Radio Shack or the Source? 

On your bass issues - I'm no expert but it sounds (pardon the pun) to me like you are in a null position with some serious standing waves at bass frequencies in the room. Do a search and get one of the mode calculators (realtraps site has one) and see where the position of nulls appear in your room and if they coincide with the seating position. If that's the problem, I think the next step might be some bass trapping to lower the null/peaks and bring things more even across different seating positions. You should wait for the experts to chime in on this because I am just learning all this stuff myself......:nerd: 

Cheers,
Lewis


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## Derek (Apr 29, 2006)

I had a sneeking hunch, that was going to happen. I was hoping sliding the sub to ~1/3 the rooms length was going to help. Some folks will suggest EQing your sub, but my experience has been to EQ only after treating the room. First try moving the sub around (maybe half way up the wall or under the screen?) to see if this helps. Next I'd contact GIK and/or Realtraps for solutions. I have Realtraps and a friend has GIK. Both are excellent products that are well worth the money. You can also go the DIY route, but that is a little more hassle. Since you can't change the room dimensions, bass trapping is your best solution.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2007)

Hi Lewiscobb greeting from NS.  I cannot locate an SPL meter anywhere from the "Source". I prefer to refer to it as the "source of major inconvenience" now that they rid themselves of the Radio Shack brand. I did locate something similar at the local music store in their microphone/mixer section for about $75. Haven't purchesed it yet as I am holding out to find this rare RS meter.

As I have been reading more and more it does seem that I am in the null position in my room. Dead center. This mode calculator worked great when I plugged in my info, but I am unsure how that applies to "where" in the room those frequencies are hitting or dipping, since it is only a graph. According to the result this what I find:










I am very new to this to, so if something is glaringly obvious, let me know.. :duh:


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## Ethan Winer (Jul 21, 2006)

George,

> This mode calculator worked great when I plugged in my info, but I am unsure how that applies to "where" in the room those frequencies are hitting or dipping <

Exactly. My mode calculator is mainly to help people design a new room, where they have the luxury of establishing the dimensions. It's not so useful for evaluating an existing room. For that you need to measure using something like Room EQ Wizard.

I'll also mention that the frequency response at any given cubic inch location in a room is the sum of the direct sound from the loudspeakers plus _many_ reflections arriving from all over the place at different volume levels and with different amounts of time delay / phase shift. So it's impossible to predict accurately what the response will be. Hence the need to measure.

--Ethan


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## LewisCobb (Jan 4, 2007)

George said:


> Hi Lewiscobb greeting from NS.  I cannot locate an SPL meter anywhere from the "Source". I prefer to refer to it as the "source of major inconvenience" now that they rid themselves of the Radio Shack brand. I did locate something similar at the local music store in their microphone/mixer section for about $75. Haven't purchesed it yet as I am holding out to find this rare RS meter.
> 
> As I have been reading more and more it does seem that I am in the null position in my room. Dead center. This mode calculator worked great when I plugged in my info, but I am unsure how that applies to "where" in the room those frequencies are hitting or dipping, since it is only a graph. According to the result this what I find:
> 
> ...



George - 
I had no idea you were so close to me :bigsmile: I am usually conversing with fellows on the opposite side of the planet on these forums. I think the answer will be to try and hold off until you can get the "real" RS SPL meter as there are calibration files that are floating around for this unit when you download and start using REW (or you drop some money on the ETF program). I have not used either but I am slowly reading and "learn'n up" on this stuff myself.

Our company sells a lot of stuff to the USA and one of our sales guys is always down there on business. I might have him pick up one of these SPL meters for me on his next trip. If you want to piggyback on this, send me a PM with your e-mail and we can "jaw" more about it. The downside is it's not going to be in the next few days but possibly in the next month.

Hey - I just realized that you might be able to help me with something. I'm coming to Halifax on Sunday (tomorrow) and might be there on Monday as well. I'm interested in visiting any furniture shops that might carry the Berkline home theater seating products as I'd like to sit on some and see what they feel like. I'll be ordering from one of the sponsors on the avs forum when I get them, but I'd like it to be a somewhat less than "blind" purchase. Let me know who the major furniture fellows are in the area down there and I'll make a circuit when I am in town.

Cheers,
Lewis


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2007)

Lewis, the major theater chair retailers that I went to in Halifax were at Worldwide Furniture where I purchased mine. The Elan chairs are made in Montreal and we liked the comfort and the microfibre material. I am not sure of their other products. There is La-Z-Boy, but that will only be their brand of theater seating. Try "Gallery 1 " on the Dartmouth side, and for more brand name theater seating there is a HT company in the Bayers Lake Industrial Park called Fidelis that may be able to help you out as well.

Best of luck. The Home Theater train has really yet to hit this city, so the choices are not that diverse.


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## LewisCobb (Jan 4, 2007)

George - thanks for the tips. We're in the same boat in NB - and probably further behind as far as ht seating. There is a Sears Home store in Moncton that has carried the Berkline 088 style from time to time, as well as Palliser and I think the Elan ones as well. I'll have a gander around the shops that you mentioned tomorrow morning (I'm actually in Halifax now - Sunday night)

Cheers,
Lewis


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2007)

Well, I have given up finding the RS meter as I have been reading the HK 635 has a automatic built in parametric EQ that you can't access unless you run the EZSetup routine. I ran my machine with EZSet/EQ the first time fully auto with -28 dB and around ear level. Then set the speakers all of which were set to LARGE, to SMALL. pushed up the sub volume a bit and checked the rest of the settings and all seemed good. The result was ear splitting high range with no bottom. So back to the drawing board, ran EZSet/Eq about half way from ear level to recommended (3ft above ear) (using a tri-pod) and the result although it set all speakers to LARGE the overall sound was more true and natural. The Receiver seems to be able to do what I cannot manually, and just makes it work...better. 

I will certainly be buying some acoustic panels in the future and I am sure that will bring my bass issues to a close. I have had an estimate done by Auralex and they have suggested placement and a package for me based on my layout. A bit pricey but it will likely do the trick.


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## LewisCobb (Jan 4, 2007)

Hey George - I forgot to send you a note after I got back from Halifax last weekend. We got to all the places you suggested and although I did not find the berkline series anywhere, I did get to see a few other chairs that I had not seen before. I'm off to Atlanta in a couple of months to a trade show for work and we are driving, so I am going to scare up a few places to drop in along the way. I figure by the time that I get back I will have seen everything possible.

Cheers,
Lewis


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2007)

Sounds like a great road trip. 

Hope you find your chairs soon, I knew Halifax didn't have a huge selection but I tried to point to the most likely places that would. 

Have fun on your trip!


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## CdnTiger (Feb 16, 2007)

In case you guys are still looking for a RS meter available in Canada, check out this link: http://www.sonicboomaudio.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=538

These guys are the Canadian distributors for SVS Subwoofers and are the only place I know of in Canada you can get them from (although I'm still living with my ancient second hand meter until I figure out how to get REW working with my system) :doh: 

Hope you get your bass issues sorted out.


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## CdnTiger (Feb 16, 2007)

Oops! Sorry about breaking the forum rules! And I just finished reading another thread where this EXACT issue came up... :whistling:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

You are okay with that link... :T


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