# Klipsch Reference Owners???



## Kipp Jones (Oct 19, 2006)

Who else is an owner? I am running Klipsch RF-7s with an RC-7, 4 RS-7s and an SVS PB2+. Killer sound system driven by a Pioneer Elite 49TXi.


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## rcarlton (Apr 29, 2006)

I don't own Reference speakers. Did have Legends. They were very nice. But, I was seduced by the sound of the Heritage speakers. No going back now.


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## Kipp Jones (Oct 19, 2006)

^


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I came oh so close to picking up the Klipsch line of speakers, but it didn't work out. I would have had a set of their new line in the HT room as a demo. I still may one day pick up a set.


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2006)

I run a set of the Klipsch Reference Bookshelves with matching center and rears. Paired with 2 x SVS PB12+ .

Best sounding system for movies I've heard. Really dynamic due to the horn design and crystal clear at the same time.


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## mdrums (Jan 1, 2007)

See my pics I put in my profile...All Klipsch Ref 7 system and 2 SW15's custom installed in a scoop cab.
I matched these up with the very warm and natural sounding McIntosch a/v pre amp and McIntosh amps.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2007)

I just bought the Klipsch THX 7.1 system less the subs! They are amazing for both movies and stereo. They replaced my Paradigm studio's V1 system.


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## zamboniman (Dec 24, 2006)

Mini Ref 7 in my theater.. Mini being I went RB-75's for the R&L and RC-7 for C. Then I compromised a bit on the surrounds for cost and space reasons. I went with the little RB-15's to round out 7.1. They actually hold their own quite well. 

Although a little part of me wishes that I just went with the THX setup at the time, my bank account loves that I didn't. I couldn't resist the smoking deal that I got them all for. 

In the end they sound great.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2007)

Had a Def-tech surround setup and replaced the mains with Klipsch RF-5 towers. I loved the sound so much, I bought two RF-7 towers as the models changed in 2006 and saved $$....so the RF-5 pair are at the surround position!!....I still have my smaller RC-35 in center and an RSW-10 sub...Planning to change to the RC-7 center next and then....I can't take my attention away from the SVS subs!!....I think that will be the ultimate set-up....maybe the SVS PB12-plus.
Power by a Yamaha RX-V2600.


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## alan monro (May 9, 2006)

Kipp. I have a 7.1 systym 3/rf25 front 4/rs side and back .dont realy need to use the sub the speakers are so magic. You would never need to upgrade are your speakers are next to perfect.good choice.kind regards alan


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## robk_11 (Feb 4, 2007)

I've had Klipsch RF3's, RFC, KSW 12, and RS 3's for the past 3 years. I am finally starting my basement HT and can't wait to put these guys in their new home!!!:daydream:


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Rob, I also owned those speakers (3 ll's) and loved them. Make sure you set them up properly with your receiver and listening position. If your basement is very "alive" you might want to consider some room treatment. Welcome to the Shack and have fun. Dennis


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## robk_11 (Feb 4, 2007)

Thanks Dennis. I have been finding some good advice on here about room treatments and everything else. I am taking on the HT DIY style on all fronts. I am looking forward to learning as i go and not making too many mistakes!!


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2007)

I have 
RF-82's for the mains, RC-35 for center and RS-35's for side and rear.

I love them!:bigsmile:


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## Egil (Mar 5, 2007)

I was Klipsch'd a couple of years ago, when I bought some SP1s. 

Now I have RF5s, RC7, RS25 and some Tannoy Speakers in a 7.1 configuration. Im subless atm, but used to have a SVS PB12U - which is a fantastic sub btw..  

A friend of mine has a pair of RF7s driven by a MCintosh MC275 (tube amplifier), and that is my 'dream stereo-setup' atm.. Simply amazing!


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2007)

I don't have the reference series, but I do have Legends in my home theater and love them. Klipsch makes a great speaker at a reasonable price point. It would be hard to find another speaker that could fill my 6300^3ft room so easily.


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## Harold Dale (Jun 26, 2006)

I've got Klipsch RF-62 fronts and RC-62 center still working on sub and surrounds.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2007)

In order to have a visually inconspicuous system, I recently acquired RB-81 fronts, RC-62 center and JL Audio f113 Fathom sub and now need to replace my in-ceiling surround speakers. Any input appreciated regarding choosing the right speakers to complete my set-up.


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## htnut12 (Mar 5, 2007)

Synergy all around with new in wall reference 5's for the surrounds. DIY IB subwoofer.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2007)

I am running RF-3's up front with a RC-7 as center. I am using RS-3's as surrounds on the side and a RC-3 for a rear surround. The bass is coming from a RSW-10. I am using a Denon 3805 receiver and a Denon 1910 DVD Player.

I am loving it!!!!!!!:bigsmile: Wish I had the RF-7's thoughraying:


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2007)

JcarD said:


> In order to have a visually inconspicuous system, I recently acquired RB-81 fronts, RC-62 center and JL Audio f113 Fathom sub and now need to replace my in-ceiling surround speakers. Any input appreciated regarding choosing the right speakers to complete my set-up.


How is the JL Audio Fathom f113. I hear it's absolutely rediculous!!:raped:


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## eddthompson (Aug 19, 2006)

Having sold my entire home theatre, im slowly rebuilding it. Ive just picked up some RF-3s with RB-3s as rears and an RC-3 center. I probably over payed for them but they were local, and i dont think i could have had better for the same price.

Im running them on an older Dolby Digital pioneer, it doesnt even have dts, but it was free :bigsmile:

So far very impressed with them, very dynamic, the high efficency helps considering the amp im using. The clarity is excellent, speech is very inteligable even at low volumes. The treble is quite forward, but thats fine by me, my hearing has been slightly marred by ear infection after ear infection so they sound pretty balanced and dont seem to suffer from simbalance.

The set did come with a KSW10, which, is surprisingly acceptible, at least untill i build my own sub down the line.

Cant see me getting rid of these. 

Now, all i need is some klipschhorns for the 2 channel setup, mark me down as a convert.

edd


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm currently looking at some RF-82's... if I can get them at a good deal, I may pull the trigger and give them a try.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

I've got 4 x RB-81's a RC-62 and a RW-12d. All powered by a Denon 3805 with an HD-A2 HD-DVD player.

I'm thinking about either getting 2 more 81's, a pair of RS62s or RF82's to make it 7.1 in my new HT. The RF82's would make for better 2-channel and might add a bit of oomph to the front during movies. The RS62 might fill out the side surround field better. Then again matching RB-81's all around would be nice. It's a hard decision.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2007)

RB 81's are nice speakers. The RF's will only increase bass output over the RB's, but the sub is handling those frequencies anyway. Have you thought instead of upgrading the sub? I've never heard much of an advantage to 7.1 over 5.1. I find that most movies that are put out are pretty weak in the rear channels anyway. That's just my opinion.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

I am considering a sub upgrade sometime in the future. I like the SVS PB13–Ultra or the PB12-Plus/2. They seem to be highly rated and cost effective. A Velodyne SPL-1200R would be nice too. I'm not sure if my budget will let me go that high. 

I've considered getting a second RW12d also. The RW12d is not the best sub on the planet, but I know somebody that gets me dealer cost on Klipsch.


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

The newer Klipsch subs are good and if you get a good price for one, go for it. The SVS's are world class and can be compared dollar for dollar with any sub in existance. I love my SVS PB12-Plus/2 with the new woofers. There is something about hearing and feeling that low bass that makes the movies for me. Keep us posted. Dennis


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

I've been running a pair of RF-3s for a while... I absolutely love'em to death... only problem is I now want to add the RC-3 for a center speaker, and can't seem to find one anywhere...

Anyone know a good source? PLEASE?


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

I've seen a few on Ebay. You'll have to check periodically. Craigslist or Audiogon might have some now and then too.


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## Jack Dotson (Aug 25, 2007)

No one has the RF-83's?

I can't even find a dealer to audition them. I read they're fantastic for HT, but not nearly as good as the Heritage's for music. Since I couldn't auditon I took the plunge for a new pair of Cornwall III's a few months back, but still wish I could have heard the 83's.

There not nearly as wide and would have been a nice fit in my living room. Still may end up with a pair down the road. My wife would be happier, that's for sure. :bigsmile:


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Never underestimate the power of the WAF


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## KlOut (Dec 15, 2007)

I have the RF-83 system (minus sub). I'm powering it with a Denon 3803. For some reason that combo seems a little under powered in my 12 x 27 room. Hoping that an upgrade to the Onkyo 905:jump:, and an upgrade to the 12.3 woofers (from 12.1) in my dual SVS 20-39 CS will be all I need to get that ear to ear I so seek:bigsmile:. 

I did recently take advantage of the winter sub sale at Outlaw. Picked up a LFM-1 EX, and although I have not calibrated it yet, it seems to easily outperform the dual SVS's (never could get them to sound right in my room no matter how many dozen times I've moved them around:scratchhead:. Hopefully the 12.3 upgrade will hook me upraying. I also intend to learn as much as possible on this wonderful forum about the BFD & other room tweeking tools!


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## bmplockmonster (Dec 19, 2007)

i just switched from polk lsi15&center to thr rf-63's rc-62 and rb61 for surrounds and i can't believe how much happier i am!!!


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2008)

I have a Denon 3805 powering RF-3's and an RSW-10, and on stereo mode it seems to be a bit bright for me. I have the treble at +1 and bass at +2. Just wish it was warmer sounding.

I know that a different receiver brand would change the sound like integra, NAD, Macintosh, etc.... but I don''t want to spend the money.

I have it running with an optical digital cable. Should I use analog interconnects or an digital coax??

Thanks for the help guys!!!


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## bmplockmonster (Dec 19, 2007)

i dont think cables will make the sound any warmer,try turning the treble down to 0 or -1.


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## risky (Jan 27, 2008)

I'm running rf83', rc64, rs62's and rsw 12 sub. I powered them for awhile with a rx-v2400 which seemed to work alright for HT. Two channel the rf83's seemed to be short on power, after doing some research on klipsch forum I found out the 83's have a real low impedence dip somewhere around 2.3 ohms. I 'm now using the rx-v2400 as a pre pro and using an outlaw 7500 for power. The difference was night and day.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

I had a Denon 3805 matched with Klipsch RB81's and a RC62. I wouldn't say it sounded bright at all. When I up/downgraded to a 2808ci I found that the center channel became bright. I attribute that to the fact the the 3805 has AL24+ processing on all channels whereas the 2808 has it on FR/FL only. The AL24+ processing smooths things out and makes things sound more real (as if played from vinyl).

AL24 processing is not applied to an analog signal but is on any PCM signal. You might want to check to see if the AL24 is kicking in. You might have to adjust or change your source. I know that different disc players sound different and Klipsch speakers are very revealing. I had a Samsung universal disc player (HD841) that sounded pretty nice even though it was cheap. My HD-A2 does not sound as nice to me playing CDs. Both outputting through optical PCM bitstream. 

Some causes of poor sound quality could be:
1) A source could possibly have time shifting errors or jitter that could cause aliasing of the signal. AL24+ is supposed to smooth aliasing and digital signals in general, but a signal that is really bad might be beyond repair.
2) The plastic in an optical cable can degrade over time and dirt can accumulate in the ends. It is a digital signal, but missing data can become audible as aliasing.
3) An optical cable that is coiled too small can cause a lot of reflections within the cable and could result in missing data.

There are other factors and generally a better rated player will sound better. If you could borrow a Denon 2930, 3910 or similar you would probably notice a big difference. Using Denon Link III from the player might also give an improvement. You could also try popping a HDCD in your player as the 3805 can decode that.

I have heard that coaxial digital can differ in sound from optical and can eliminate some of the problems you can encounter with an optical cable. Although it can introduce other problem. It can't hurt to try a coaxial cable out. Let us know the results.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2008)

KlOut said:


> I have the RF-83 system (minus sub). I'm powering it with a Denon 3803. For some reason that combo seems a little under powered in my 12 x 27 room. Hoping that an upgrade to the Onkyo 905:jump:, and an upgrade to the 12.3 woofers (from 12.1) in my dual SVS 20-39 CS will be all I need to get that ear to ear I so seek:bigsmile:.
> 
> I did recently take advantage of the winter sub sale at Outlaw. Picked up a LFM-1 EX, and although I have not calibrated it yet, it seems to easily outperform the dual SVS's (never could get them to sound right in my room no matter how many dozen times I've moved them around:scratchhead:. Hopefully the 12.3 upgrade will hook me upraying. I also intend to learn as much as possible on this wonderful forum about the BFD & other room tweeking tools!


As Risky says, RF-83s have low impendance. And in your case you have the worst receiver for the RF-83s.

When I was auditioning my RF-83s, I listened to them with Yamaha 3800, Onkyo 905 and Denon 3808.
With the Yamaha and Onkyo they sounded amazing - tons of detail and very dynamic.
When I switched to the Denon, it they sounded like cheap speakers - gone was the detai and the dynamics. I also had to turn up the volume almost to full to get reasonable sound level.

The Denons are not capable of driving the low impendance RF-83s. You need to start looking for another receiver or better yet use the Denon as a pre and get an amp with the most power you can afford.

The RF-83 system (RF-83, RC-64, RS-62) love power, despite their very high efficiency.
I have the Onkyo 905, a 140 w/ch receiver which works great driving the RF-83s.
However, due to RF-83s very low distortion, they play very clean and I find myself listening to them at louder levels then you would imagine, reaching -3 to 0 dB level on the receiver.
I do not turn it up more, as I do not want clipping.

As soon as I finish my home theater (another 3 weeks) which will have sound treatment, I will be adding a D-Sonic Magnum 2500 amplifier, which is 500 w/ch accross LCR and and 250 w/ch accross the 4 surrounds. Then the system should realy sing.

All that power is not for exagarating the volume levels, but more for the dynamic peaks. If you do the SPL calcs, you will find out that to be able to reproduce sound at close to THX reference levels and still have power reserve for the dynamic peaks found in films (20 to 40 dB), you need at least 250 w/ch, even with the super efficient RF-83s.

Those with speakers with lower efficiency (less than 94 dB/watt) are really fooling themselves if they think they are getting full reproduction of movie soundtracs. Doing the SPL calcs anyone can see that the normal receiver will be clipping like crazy.
However, they have probably never heard clean, uncliped, reproduction and thus have no clue what it sounds like.

There is no such thing as too much power !!!


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## Canadian_Dude (Jan 24, 2008)

I have a pair of RF-82s and I will eventually get the RC-62 and 2 RS-52s when I get the cash. I love the sound of these speakers, even in my horrible tiny room they sound great. I decided to get an Epik sub instead of RSW-10D because I think they look meaner and should perform much better.


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## TiEcs (Feb 7, 2008)

I recently upgraded from RF35, RC35, RB25, RW12 to the newer RF83, RC64, RS62, RT12d set.

My Denon 2106 will be leaving once my Onkyo 905 will be delivered.
Never heard the 905, but the 875 sounded already super on the RF83.
Hopefully the 905 will do even better (must be :bigsmile


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

That's greatto hear about the Onkyo 875 sounding nice. I'm tossing around whether to get the Denon 3808 or the 875. I'm thinking the 875 has better audio for the buck. The only things that had me sitting on the fence was the network capability and the GUI. I can always buy a network streamer separately and the GUI isn't that bad on the Onkyos.


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

Despite what some here may say your 3805 is a great receiver. It is more than capable of running your speakers. If you hear clipping then there is something wrong with it. I would definitely set your bass and treble controls to flat and play around with the auto eq to see if you can find the sound you're looking for. Klipsch can sound bright and forward to some listeners and really are a love it or hate it speaker. Try running the eq with the mic in different positions and if you can add some room treatment or even move the listening position. I was amazed at how much better my system sounded when I changed the wall that my system was on. Good luck and keep us posted! You have an awesome receiver and great speakers!



Dionyz said:


> As Risky says, RF-83s have low impendance. And in your case you have the worst receiver for the RF-83s.


The Denon is fine if not great for low impedances. I have run low impedence loads on mine for years at levels above reference with no clipping. Several other members could attest to this as well. Don't forget, an amp that is not clipping is not out of current.



> When I was auditioning my RF-83s, I listened to them with Yamaha 3800, Onkyo 905 and Denon 3808.
> With the Yamaha and Onkyo they sounded amazing - tons of detail and very dynamic.
> When I switched to the Denon, it they sounded like cheap speakers - gone was the detai and the dynamics. I also had to turn up the volume almost to full to get reasonable sound level.
> 
> The Denons are not capable of driving the low impendance RF-83s. You need to start looking for another receiver or better yet use the Denon as a pre and get an amp with the most power you can afford.


I would think that there was a problem with setup in the room. The Denon if setup properly and not connected to a bad switch in the room should have held it's own against the others. Onkyo is a great receiver but the difference should not be dramatic... at the very least db levels should have been exactly the same all things being equal.

Again... any amp not clipping is not out of current and is driving the load without issue.



> The RF-83 system (RF-83, RC-64, RS-62) love power, despite their very high efficiency.


With all respect, this statement is self contradictary. An efficient speaker will take less power for a given level of output. If you're referring to the fact that you like to listen at reference levels, then yes they do like to be played loud and is a big reason people buy Klipsch. However a high sensitivity speaker will require much less power for a given level of playback, hence less need for a gigantic amp. A Denon, or a cheap Sony will drive Klipsch to reference without clipping...



> I find myself listening to them at louder levels then you would imagine, reaching -3 to 0 dB level on the receiver.
> I do not turn it up more, as I do not want clipping.


With your amp and your speakers you would be fine going beyond reference if you wanted to. Many of us listen at those levels from time to time.



> All that power is not for exagarating the volume levels, but more for the dynamic peaks. If you do the SPL calcs, you will find out that to be able to reproduce sound at close to THX reference levels and still have power reserve for the dynamic peaks found in films (20 to 40 dB), you need at least 250 w/ch, even with the super efficient RF-83s.


105db is the max peak level in film. This is a digital 'wall' and cannot be exceeded other than buy cranking your volume higher. Even moderate amps can drive most modern speakers to reference without clipping. Again, an amp not clipping is doing just fine... it is not out of current or anything else.




> There is no such thing as too much power !!!


But there is such thing as enough. Why buy 500 watts if you'll only ever use 100? There is nothing scientifically beneficial about running a 500 watt amp at 100 watts over a smaller amp that is not clipping. 

From experience, I run 4 ohm nominal speakers that dip below 3 ohms and have an 87db sensitivity and have run them with both a 125 watt separate amp and a 140 watt Denon receiver. I've exceeded reference levels for extended periods of time with both amps and never run out of power...


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## bmplockmonster (Dec 19, 2007)

i use my rf-63's w/ an onkyo 805 and an outlaw 7500.these speakers are absolutely amazing!i have tried them w/o the outlaw andjust the onkyo to see if these speakers would sound the same,being so sensitive.there is so much more detail and seperation in music when using the ex amp.i bought the amp for some polk lsi15's which are very power hungry at 86db into 4ohms.they NEVER did sound right to me.i kept blowing out the highs becouse i was turning them up to loud as they were not giving me what i was looking for.as for the klipsh,the never get turned up as loud as the polks(+15 sometimes on the polks as opposed to +5 on the klipsh at max)theres more to amps than just watts is my long and drawn out point.my 805 sounds much better w/ the klipsh than w/ the polks, but not nearly as nice as w/ the external amp and the klipsh.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2008)

thxgoon

It continues to amaze me how it always seems to be a set-up issue when people see poor performance for Denon receivers with the Klipsch speakers. If set up is an issue it would also happen with Onkyo and Yamaha. 

FYI - my listening tests were done with all 3 receivers in pure/direct mode, which means ALL set-up tweaks are by-passed. If Denon does not by-pass all tone and cross over adjustments in the pure/direct mode, then it is BAD design.

Quote:
The RF-83 system (RF-83, RC-64, RS-62) love power, despite their very high efficiency. 
With all respect, this statement is self contradictary. 

With respect to this statement it is not contradictory at all. The RF-83s do get louder as they should. However, as I stated, the bass and percussion gets more controlled and life like at higher volumes. Go listen to RF-83s and you will hear what I am saying.

Also, not every receiver can supply the what the RF-83s need. Denon 3808, in my listening experiece, definitelly can't - it ran out of volume before getting to a comparable level as the Onkyo. I also suspect the Sony would have trouble, as I heve heard that their amp sections are quite weak (can't confirm as I have never had an interest in Sony receivers)

Quote:
Even moderate amps can drive most modern speakers to reference without clipping. Again, an amp not clipping is doing just fine... it is not out of current or anything else.

Please do your math. The 105 dB THX level is for average peaks. Gun shots and explosions can be another 20 to 40 dB above this. Thus to have realistic reproduction, the speaker-amp combination, IMHO, need to be able to reach 115 to 125 dB maximum (not average) peaks. Thus see the following table for a 86 dB/watt sensitive speaker and you can see it can't reach those levels.

dB	watts
86	1
89	2
92	4
95	8
98	16
101	32
104	64
107	128
110	256
113	512
116	1024
119	2048
122	4096
*125	8192*

It is also possible you do not recognize clipping if you have never heard an unclipped dynamic sound. Many receivers and amps have soft clipping circuits that round off the peaks, thus you do not get the full dynamic response. People can get accustomed to this and don't even know what they are missing unless they have heard what an unclipped soundtrack sounds like with a powerfull amplifier.

For the RF-83s the table is as follows

dB	watts
100	1
103	2
106	4
109	8
112	16
115	32
118	64
*121	128*
124	256
127	512

So it it looks like you can get to about 120 dB with a 140 watt/ch receiver.
However, you can't ignore the fact that these speakers dip down to about 3 ohms.
At 3 ohms, the receiver/amp has to be able to supply almost 4 times the wattage.
Thus if the receiver/amp does not have a robust amplifier section, it will never get there.
Denon can't, despite the manufacturers claims. Others have confirmed what I am saying.

However, at the end of the day it comes down to your taste and your expectations.
If you are satisfied with the sound you are getting from your speaker and receive/amp combination, then I a glad for you.

Sound is a very subjective and personnal thing.
Far be it for me to tell someone else what to choose.

I am strictly describing *my personnal experience* and pointing out the physics of sound reproduction for those that care and can hear the difference.

p.s. Calibration levels and listening levels are different. 
i.e. Calibration level for subwoofers is typicaly 75 dB. However, no one listens or is satisfied at this level. 
The true afficionados of good bass are not happy unless their sub is belting out at least 105 dB peaks in the 15 Hz to 25 Hz range (I use Epik Conquest to get faithfull bass reproduction)

The same way THX calibration may be at 85 dB. However, movie theaters have the sound level well above this, which also means the peaks are above 105 dB. At least that is the case at Warren theaters, which are always state of the art.


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

Dionyz said:


> thxgoon
> 
> It continues to amaze me how it always seems to be a set-up issue when people see poor performance for Denon receivers with the Klipsch speakers. If set up is an issue it would also happen with Onkyo and Yamaha.
> 
> FYI - my listening tests were done with all 3 receivers in pure/direct mode, which means ALL set-up tweaks are by-passed. If Denon does not by-pass all tone and cross over adjustments in the pure/direct mode, then it is BAD design.


Granted I don't have any experience with Onkyo other than demoing at CC, but most receivers I know of don't bypass speaker size, distance and level settings in their direct modes. I also know a salesman who will go to great lengths to make a brand they don't like sound bad. 

Besides, If there is any speaker on the planet that will sound good with a bad amp, it is Klipsch! This is exactly why they were designed! 




> The RF-83 system (RF-83, RC-64, RS-62) love power, despite their very high efficiency.
> With all respect, this statement is self contradictary.
> 
> With respect to this statement it is not contradictory at all. The RF-83s do get louder as they should. However, as I stated, the bass and percussion gets more controlled and life like at higher volumes. Go listen to RF-83s and you will hear what I am saying.


Please explain to me how a more efficient speaker will require more power???? If the music had more dynamics, clarity and punch, but neither amp was clipping then it is not a factor of power. It is something else.

I've heard the RF83's, I sold them for years, along with Denon, Sunfire, Krell, and many other receivers (though never Onkyo) and they are without a doubt one of the easiest loads to drive. They are _designed_ to be. You are knocking a great receiver and lumping a blanket assessment across the entire brand based on one bad experience. I hardly call that scientific or objective. 



> Also, not every receiver can supply the what the RF-83s need. Denon 3808, in my listening experiece, definitelly can't - it ran out of volume before getting to a comparable level as the Onkyo. I also suspect the Sony would have trouble, as I heve heard that their amp sections are quite weak (can't confirm as I have never had an interest in Sony receivers)


Ran out of volume how... you kept turning it up and it stayed the same level or you were at +18 and it was quiet?




> Please do your math. The 105 dB THX level is for average peaks. Gun shots and explosions can be another 20 to 40 dB above this.


Wrong. As stated before the 105db is a digital 'wall'. Nothing can be recorded above this level. It is the loudest a calibrated system will get with a calibrated source. The only way to exceed this is by going above 0db on your receiver and cranking up the gain.





> For the RF-83s the table is as follows
> 
> dB	watts
> 100	1
> ...


At three ohms you'll need about 2.somthingX more power. You'd need 4X at 2 ohms. With years of experience in both home and pro audio, I can assure you I know what clipping sounds like. If that Denon you were listening to was driven into clipping by RF-83's, at anything below (or quite a bit above) reference, it was broken.



> Sound is a very subjective and personnal thing.
> Far be it for me to tell someone else what to choose


Yes please consider that before make statements like this:

_"And in your case you have the worst receiver for the RF-83s."_

Especially when there is no scientific data to back this up. Only a botched listening session.




> p.s. Calibration levels and listening levels are different.
> i.e. Calibration level for subwoofers is typicaly 75 dB. However, no one listens or is satisfied at this level.
> The true afficionados of good bass are not happy unless their sub is belting out at least 105 dB peaks in the 15 Hz to 25 Hz range (I use Epik Conquest to get faithfull bass reproduction)
> 
> The same way THX calibration may be at 85 dB. However, movie theaters have the sound level well above this, which also means the peaks are above 105 dB. At least that is the case at Warren theaters, which are always state of the art.


Calibration levels should always be the same. That is why they are _calibration _levels. The 75db calibration files are recorded at -30db, so that when a 0db signal comes along the speakers are now playing at 105db. Same with 85db calibration, -20 gives 85db so 0db gives 105, and -30db still gives 75db. They are all the same. And remember there is no such thing as a signal above 0db in the digital world. 

If things differ, then it is user settings based on personal liking. I'll be the first to admit that my bass response has a nice house curve and I generally have the subs about 3db high. I like it this way even though it is not 'calibrated'. And even though the rest of my system is calibrated, I usually listen at about -10db or so. These are examples of listening habits and personal settings, not differences in calibration.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

thxgoon said:


> Besides, If there is any speaker on the planet that will sound good with a bad amp, it is Klipsch! This is exactly why they were designed!


I wish that was the case. I tried out the Denon 2808ci and hated the sound in 5 channel mode. I find they are very revealing speakers.

I agree with Dionyz about Denon's power ratings. They may be fine for 2 channel listening and hit their rated Watts, but go into 5/7 channel and they dip way down. The Onkyo 875 meets their spec (a THX Ultra2 requirement I think) driving 5 channels and only dips down to 128W in 7 channel (according to Sound and Vision). The Denon 4308ci dips down to 111W driving 7 channels. Still not terrible, but not as good as the Onkyo. I'd like to see the ratings on the lesser Denon's (ie: 3808 and 2808) as they have less robust amps than the 4308. The 2808 in my opinion (please don't flame me over it) was very weak. I almost had to crank it up to -0dB to get the same output of my old 3805 at -35dB (10W difference between the 2 in manufacturers specs).

I agree with everything else you said thxgoon


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

MatrixDweller said:


> The 2808 in my opinion (please don't flame me over it) was very weak. I almost had to crank it up to -0dB to get the same output of my old 3805 at -35dB (10W difference between the 2 in manufacturers specs).


Wow, that's interesting. I wonder if they are calibrating the volume controls differently these days??? Weird, in either case though if there was no clipping present the sq difference isn't attributable to watts. Did you ever call Denon and ask them what was up?


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

I didn't call Denon. Maybe I should have sent them an email or something about it.

Isn't 0dB on the volume scale the manufacturers reference level for that receiver? ie: 110W receiver rated at .05THD 2 channels driven would set their 0dB to that? Then in 5 channel mode the total output of power would go down per channel making it so that 0dB on the nob would seem quieter? Maybe you can explain to us how the dB scale on the volume scale actually works thxgoon since you are more of an expert than I am.


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

My Denon 2807 doesn't seem to have any trouble driving my fairly ineffecient SVS SB-01's to reference. It might be worth a call to Denon. There may be a problem. Dennis


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

MatrixDweller said:


> Isn't 0dB on the volume scale the manufacturers reference level for that receiver? ie: 110W receiver rated at .05THD 2 channels driven would set their 0dB to that? Then in 5 channel mode the total output of power would go down per channel making it so that 0dB on the nob would seem quieter?


The 0db setting on the receiver (assuming that the manufacturer calibrated it in this way, or any THX receiver) is considered 'reference level'. ie - the same level that the sound engineers used in the recording studio and the same playback level at a cinema. The number of watts that you're receiver is putting out at any given time is depended several other things, most notable the signal level and the load it is driving. When sound is recorded a master volume is set, usually 0db, being the highest level of sound that will be allowed. All other sounds are recorded at a reduced level relative to this. For example, with most dialoug this is around -30db or so. Meaning that the signal level/recording level of the dialog is 30 db quieter than reference. Then the system is calibrated so that a 0db or max level would result in an output of 105 db. Now that dialog that is recorded at -30 will have a playback level of 75db, and your amp will only be putting out the necessary number of watts to achieve 75db.

Another factor is your level settings. With Klipsch speakers the sensitivity is quite high so you would expect independent level settings to be around -5 to -10 depending on your speakers and assuming everything has been calibrated with a db meeter and the built in test tones. Now, your receiver is deducting said number of db from the volume level as well to insure the appropriate playback level.

Whether or not 0db results in max output of the amp will depend on 2 things. The size of the amp and the load it is driving. Obviously there is going to be a minimum power requirement to get to 105 db and that is usually under 50 watts using relatively efficient (>89db or so) speakers. So in the case of the Denon 3805 driving 95db efficient speakers, 105db is well under max output from the amp. If you wanted to go louder you certainly can and your Klipsch speakers will love you for it 

As for the 'all channels driven' spec there is lots of controversy surrounding the validity of this test. I am one to believe that the spec is farse because you will never actually see program material that will demad all 5 or 7 channels be driven at full output continuously. But say this did happen frequently in movies to make the spec legit, with 95db Klipsch speakers that only amounts to 10 watts per channel. 50-70 watts total output. Not much and well within reach of a 3805, a 2808 or a htib for that matter. This is why I think there is more to this story than power. Hope that helps:nerd:

Sorry forgot to answer your question about the 5-channel mode:

I don't know how the internal processing works for 5 channel stereo. I would think it would be as simple as summing the L/R to the center and doubling the L/R in the appropriate rears. This would result in a perceived volume increase. In theory though, your receiver should be as capable in 5ch stereo as any other mode and the amp should only be limited by the dynamic power with all channels driven. Incidentally, this is probably the only realistic use of the all channels driven spec, though in my experience the center gets muted quite a bit in this mode.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

Thanks for that goon. That's why I love this forum.

I sold my 2808ci a week ago. I got an amazing deal on it through a friend who works at a retailer so I managed to sell it for a nice profit. I'll be using that money to get something a little better. I was tossing around the 3808ci for a while and have pretty much settled on the Onkyo 875. I'm without a receiver right now and getting edgy. I won't be getting a new one for another couple weeks because the wife had found a way to spend my other savings :explode:.


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## justin.kerr (Jan 3, 2008)

I think it would be more accurate to say that the Klipsch RF-83 speakers are sensitive, but also difficult to drive. My old Yamaha receiver would get hot and shut off driving them at moderate levels, and even now my Cinenova will shut off, due to thermal overload protection kicking in. The low impedance dips, down to 2.8 ohms, get things heated up. :bigsmile:


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

From what I can see there are two concerns in this thread. 1 is that the speakers are very sensitive thereby requiring less power for a given output. The other is that they have a dip in impedance meaning that they are hard to drive. From what I gather based on the posts on this thread is that the latter overcomes the sensitivity resulting in a speaker that is actually harder on an amp than a higher impedance less sensitive one. Lets look at three senarios where each speaker is being ran at the frequency where it's impedance is lowest as I think we can all agree that that's when it's hardest on the amp and all have the same output

Speaker A (RF-83's)
100db Sensitivity - 2.8 Ohms - 1 Watt

Speaker B (same impedance but normal sensitivity)
90db Sensitivity - 2.8 ohms - 10 Watts

Speaker C (normal sensitivity and 'easy' impedance)
90db Sensitivity - 5.6 ohms - 5 Watts

So even if the Klipsch are running into low impedance territory it is relatively insignificant compared to the advantage of its sensitivity. From Ohm's laws a 10db advantage in sensitivity means 10X less power while half of the impedance only means 2X as much power. Speaker C is still 5X harder to drive than the RF-83's. 

Ohm's laws:

P=RI^2
and
P=IV
and V=IR

I'll leave it to you to apply the math as it's too much work to type it all out. 

Justin - I don't doubt that you have run your amps into protection. It is not _because_ you have Klipsch, it's a _good thing _you have Klipsch.


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## bmplockmonster (Dec 19, 2007)

math doesn't lie


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## a1161979 (Aug 26, 2007)

Doesnt this assume that the amplifiers power supply can deliver power into those low loads? Presuming an amplifier with a well designed protection curcuit then surely speaker C will place less strain on the amplifier? Also when you say harder you mean wattage however in reality its the current requirement that constitues the strain on the amplifier


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Kinda true..... absolutely....... sort of.......
In real power terms, a high current requirement equals a high power requirement, assuming voltage is kept constant. In the case of an amplifier feeding a speaker, and I hope someone more more knowledgable than myself can confirm or deny this for me, I suspect we're dealing with a significant amount of reactive power... that is, in laymen's terms, energy that is sourced by the amplifier but not used by the speakers, which the amplifier then has to sink... you can see the amplifier's ability to do this (if your speaker cables are sufficiently large) by running a quick test: turn the speakers switch on your amp to off, and lightly tap the cone of your woofer... the sound you hear is effectively the mechanical resonance of the woofer... now turn the speaker switch back to on with no signal input, and tap the cone the same way, you should hear almost no sound, as the amplifier's error correction circuitry is nulling out the signal the speakers are sending back to the amplifier... at any rate...
This reactive power increases the effective load on your amplifier... further, Ohm's laws can easily be maniuplated to show that the most effective power transfer occurs when the impedance of the source equals the impedance of the load... the greater the difference between these impedances, the less efficient your amp will be working...
As a big fan of Klipsch products, I'm surprised to hear they dip down below 3 Ohms... perhaps someone could elaborate on the good/bad nature of this in speaker design...
Have you tried a different set of high quality speakers connected to this amp? just out of curiosity, and what about your airflow around the amp? Is it in a cramped cabinet?
Generally, if you have a speaker impedance switch on your amp, it's safer for the amp to set it to 4 Ohms even if your running 8Ohm speakers...


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

When you set an amp to the 4ohm setting it might be safer for the amp but it will put the amp into a low output mode so you will not get full power out of it, limiting the volume level. I would leave the amp in 8ohm mode, regardless of the speaker and if it shuts down due to the volume level while playing. it is time to get a better amp. 

Yamaha is known for redesigning their receivers from the ground up year to year, so one year a particular receiver will handle a 4 ohm load very well, while the next year it's replacement won't.

I have run 3, 8 ohm speakers in parallel from my Denon 1804 and now my 3808, I was testing out center channels and had the SPL at 75-80 for over an hour with out any problems.

If your amp is shutting down due to heat issues, try setting up a fan to blow on it while using it to see if it helps, if it does then you know it is a heat issue, if the amp still shuts down the there is another problem.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

jakewash said:


> When you set an amp to the 4ohm setting it might be safer for the amp but it will put the amp into a low output mode so you will not get full power out of it, limiting the volume level. I would leave the amp in 8ohm mode, regardless of the speaker and if it shuts down due to the volume level while playing. it is time to get a better amp.


Keep in mind, full volume levels of many amps are way too loud for most of our listening spaces... I find I usually run my amp at about 30% of full scale on the dial... I find it's sometimes beneficial to play with the gains of various sections to maintain the same general sound levels while making sure all frequencies are being properly excited...

At any rate, it's been a while, but I'm pretty sure that when I did the taste test on my own system with switching between 4 and 8 ohms on the receiver (8 ohm speakers) there was no sound difference...


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## acommonsoul (Jan 30, 2008)

What do you guys think of the RW-12D? I just picked one up the other day for about $500 on clearance. From what I have heard it sounds pretty good, but I would like to hear other people's opinions.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

I have a RW12d and like it. It can move a lot of air when it needs to. It doesn't go as low or as accurate as most SVS' but at $500 I think you got a really good sub. I wouldn't say they were worth the full retail price however. I managed to get the IR codes programmed into my harmony and it works, but the sensor is on the rear panel so I have to try and bounce the signal off the wall for it to work from my seated position. The front display doesn't glow when the remote is used either so there's no way of telling if it actually received the signal worked.


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## acommonsoul (Jan 30, 2008)

Thanks for the response...I was originally planning on purchasing the SVS psb-10, but I thought the deal on the Klipsch was too good to pass up.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2008)

I own the RF-63 and matched it with the RC-64 and i am very happy with the refrence line, it's powered with the Denon 2808ci.


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## nathometheatre (Feb 17, 2009)

This is my first post on this forum, as I too was looking for other Klipsch Reference owners. We have almost an identical system. My system is comprised of the RF-7's, RC-7, RS-7's (sides), RB-25 Rear surrounds and a SVS PB-Plus2. I'm currently driving them via my most recent purchase being the Denon avr-4308ci, and the Denon dvd-3800BDCI blu ray player. I've had my Klipsch & SVS for nearly 3 years now, and have no desire to change. The Denon is a great match for the Klipsch Reference 7 Series. My issue is, I currently have my surrounds (RS-7's & RB-25's) mounted at about 7' high pointing straight out. Being that the Klipsch are so directional, I have to turn them way up to blend with the rest of my speakers. I'm looking for different mounting options, but my space is somewhat limited so I have to keep them at the height their at. Any suggestions for different mounting options?


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Welcome Kevin. I use the RS-42's for my side surrounds. they are facing each other at about 7' and are directly to the side of my ears. I find that after Audyssey calibration, they sound great. Because I have SVSound SB-01's everywhere else, lower volume levels will cause the surrounds to be louder because of their efficiency. As long as I listen within a few db of Dolby reference, they sound great. Since I listen to mostly movies, I am a fan of dipole surrounds. Have fun. Dennis


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## alanbmx (Mar 13, 2009)

I have a 7.1 setup with RS-3ll's and I agree, even on Blu-ray I do not hear much from the surrounds


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## alanbmx (Mar 13, 2009)

I have RF-7 mains and love them :yay2:
rsw-12 sub
RC-3ll center
RS-3ll surounds
conected to a Pioneer Elite VSX-03THX
Also a Marantz CC4001 CD changer that has brought my CD collection to life, they now sound as full as I remember them on vinyl

Cannot say enough about the RF-7's


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

alanbmx said:


> I have a 7.1 setup with RS-3ll's and I agree, even on Blu-ray I do not hear much from the surrounds


Surround depends on the movie, regardless if it's bluray or DVD. One of my favourties is the canyon shootout scene in 3:10 to Yuma. The echoing is so realistic it makes you feel as if you're actually in a canyon.

You may also need to adjust your levels, even after the auto-calibration to suit your listening preferences. I had to turn up my surrounds about a dB so that they weren't drowned out by the front channels. My placement isn't ideal either. That's another thing to consider. Ideally they should be close to 90 degrees and no more than 110 from what the experts say. I find I get the best effect when my monoploes are at 90. Right now they're at about 115 :sad2:

I have RB81's for fronts and surrounds and a RC62 for my center. I've had them for about 3 years and love them. I've considered getting 2 pairs of RB61's and using them at 90 degrees to each seating row. Don't think budget or WAF permits though.


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## Zen Traveler (Mar 22, 2009)

*Re: Klipsch Reference Owners!*



alanbmx said:


> I have a 7.1 setup with RS-3ll's and I agree, even on Blu-ray I do not hear much from the surrounds


Fwiw, and as an introduction, I have a small (less than 2000, cu ft) Library Home Theater that has a limited LP but has _*tremendous*_ sound. 

I use RF-3 Towers as Surrounds in conjunction with my RB-75 Bookshelf speakers in the rear and I am amazed at how much quality information is being sent to the surround channels in both movies and Multichannel Music. 

I also followed a little of the discussion above and feel one of the reasons I get such good results driving a (pretty much) all Klipsch Reference Tower 7.1 HT is because of my Denon AVR 4806 THX _Ultra II _rated AVR's ability to drive speakers that do have a jagged FR with dips that go down to 3.2 Ohms, but are "8 Ohm Compatible." :T


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## Zen Traveler (Mar 22, 2009)

*Re: Klipsch Reference Owners!*

I see in my post above I failed to mention that along with those surrounds, I have RF-7s and an RC-7 up front along with dual RSW (12 and 15) Subwoofers. Fwiw, Klipsch is bringing back the RF-7s: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=559515&goto=newpost :yay2:


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

i have Klipsch rf-3II's in a 6.1 surround setup,love the speakers but have never been able to get the balance between the two to my liking.with movies its fine as i guess the center fills in, but on 2 channel audio everthing seems to come from the right speaker,i could just change the balance in the avr (yamaha rx-v1800)but then i worry this throws off everything in regards to fronts to center to surrounds etc...
i run ypao(yamaha's auto eq)and have also set up the balance with a rat shack spl meter,but still feel like the balance isnt just right.
i would like to get the toe in,distance from front wall etc spot on.any suggestions other than what im doing?
Btw right now i have the speakers about 14 inches from front wall tilted upward and toed in(suggestions i have seen before on the forum.in regards to these speakers)i do have REW
thanks Dean


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## Zen Traveler (Mar 22, 2009)

Hi Dean, how far apart are your speakers and how far away do you sit?


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Hi Zen
I currently am about 12-13 feet from front wall.i have moved speakers in every direction,but they're currently about 9 feet apart.i think(im at work,speaking from memory)i had them at about 12-13 apart but this seemed to make things worse.i.e.where they are now is the best ive been able to get but still not perfect.
Thanks Dean


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## Zen Traveler (Mar 22, 2009)

Hmmm... I don't know if I have a solution, but you_ may_ need a larger speaker up front. ;-) 

Right now I have RF-3s as side surrounds and prefer them over RB-75 bookshelf speakers (RB-75 has the same size tweeter and is voice matched to my RF-7s) and came to the conclusion it must be because of their narrower dispersion pattern. I sit within 3'-4' of either, in a 7.1 configuration and they are close to a side wall (sweet spot is in between a large front room and a smaller area behind the LP).

I don't listen to much 2 channel, but when I do the Denon AVR allows me to use the sub in Direct Mode and it sounds *Awesome*..Fwiw, if your sub is well placed maybe this is an option, if you haven't already tried it.


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

I have the Hsu vtf mk3Ho and Mbm12,with rew i think i have both subs in the best position(i am looking into removing the mbm12 from the mix though)i have calibrated both with REw and a BFD.
I have been on the lookout for rf-7 and rc-7 but 1 requirement is that i can drive to pick them up and there doesnt seem to be much in the north Alabama area!ive also considered Monitor Audio rs6 or rs8's
Aside from imaging ive also noticed over the past year ive somehow lost my "highs" to some degree.Cymbals seem "muted"maybe this is also part of my imaging problem?i dont know at what point the highs went away.i have traps at all first reflection points but wouldnt think ive overdone the traps,theyre only 2 inches thick ,2 panels on each side wall,none on front wall and 2 4"panels on rear wall.
Im hoping its more of a toe in- distance apart sort of problem as before i had to really cut the treble,now i cant seem to get it back?
Thanks Dean


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## Zen Traveler (Mar 22, 2009)

You are ahead of the game insofar as REW and BFD is concerned...I have the file downloaded and have purchased everything I need to set up REW and am waiting for time to hook it all up which hopefully will be this weekend. 

Insofar as losing your highs, I would check and make sure your bridges are in place and that your tweeters are working because i haven't heard of a tractrixs horn doing that without those conditions. 

Good Luck in finding a remedy and imho, I would consider upgrading your speakers if you are starting to expect more. Fwiw, the RF-7/RC-7 is a substantial upgrade to the RF-3/RC-3 if you have a beefier power supply (i.e., Ultra II AVR or separates) but I wouldn't run them on a lower end AVR. My 2 cents.


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## Blake90 (Mar 25, 2012)

I have Klipsch Reference Cinema 10's, RSX-5 L/R, RCX-4 center, and RSX-4 surrounds. My subs are BIC pl-200 and Klipsch rw12d. Receiver is Onkyo TX-SR805. 

Best sound I have ever heard.


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