# Samsung 2013 PNxxF8500, 51", 60", and 64"



## Robert Zohn

New dedicated Samsung plasma site with lots of detailed technical information, prices and launch dates.

Let's start discussing Samsung's breakthrough PDP and video processing technologies.

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Robert

I saw a video of you, while your were at CES this year. The video was while you were at the Samsung display looking at the plasma F8500. You seemed excited about the PQ of the set. In fact, if I remember correctly, you mention it was the best PQ that you have seen. But that statement was to the Samsung rep. Maybe, you were just being nice to keep him happy????

Question:
How would you compare the PQ between the ZT60 and the F8500. I can't wait until you get them under your microscope.


m


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## Robert Zohn

Hi Jim, 

That's what the Samsung reps said to me as well. I was not being nice, I truly like the display. Samsung development engineers designed the 2013 F8500 PDP from the ground up. The image quality is stunning and it even look good when powered off. 

Of course, at CES they were showing what Samsung called Beta production units so we'll have to wait till the end of March for me to have an actual production unit. I'll thoroughly test the F8500 with a couple of my favorite calibrators and report back here with our findings.

And of course, it will be in our Flat Panel HDTV Shootout event for the world to see how it stacks up against all of the very best 2013 displays.

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> I was not being nice, I truly like the display. Samsung development engineers designed the 2013 F8500 PDP from the ground up. The image quality is stunning and it even look good when powered off.
> 
> Of course, at CES they were showing what Samsung called Beta production units so we'll have to wait till the end of March for me to have an actual production unit. I'll thoroughly test the F8500 with a couple of my favorite calibrators and report back here with our findings.
> 
> And of course, it will be in our Flat Panel HDTV Shootout event for the world to see how it stacks up against all of the very best 2013 displays.
> 
> -Robert


Yes, I heard the rep say that. 

Waiting until March to finally arrive is like a small kid waiting for Santa Clause, just too much excitment


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## BruceW

Thank you for the link.. Its really nice..


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## Robert Zohn

Just got permission to list all specs and prices for Samsung's 2013 flagship PDP F8500 series.

Here's the link to the prices and here's the pdf data sheet.

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## realzven

Thanks Robert for the links, when is your first review ?


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## Robert Zohn

realzven, don't tell anyone, but Kevin Miller and I are doing a full review the week of March 18th. jk, please go ahead and tell the world.

-Robert


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## realzven

I can't wait your review


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## Robert Zohn

I'm getting excited to get my hands on the F8500 series PDP. The big advancement for the F8500 is it's ability to deliver a significantly brighter picture and lower MLL. 

From my CES private viewing and discussions I'm anticipating the peak luminance to be 120 fL in Cal Day with no clipping. And the MLL to be as low as .0010fl or lower in Cal Night with no crushing.

We'll soon know the answers on this and much more.....

-Robert


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## realzven

Thanks for the great info you provide


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## realzven

Robert Zohn said:


> realzven, don't tell anyone, but Kevin Miller and I are doing a full review the week of March 18th. jk, please go ahead and tell the world.
> 
> -Robert


Robert, it's March 18th


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## Robert Zohn

For the F8000 calibration Kevin was not available, so we had Ed Johnson do the calibration and help with the evaluation. 

The F8500s did not have enough hours on it to do a proper calibration so Kevin Miller is doing it this weekend on our 51" and 60" F8000s. Just want to see if one size perform differently that the other.

-Robert


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## realzven

Thanks Robert, keep us updated


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## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> I'm getting excited to get my hands on the F8500 series PDP. The big advancement for the F8500 is it's ability to deliver a significantly brighter picture and lower MLL.
> 
> From my CES private viewing and discussions I'm anticipating the peak luminance to be 120fl in Cal Day with no clipping. And the MLL to be as low as .0010fl or lower in Cal Night with no crushing.
> 
> We'll soon know the answers on this and much more.....
> 
> -Robert


I think the only TV that might move me away from a 65F8000 is the F8500. Time will tell!


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## Robert Zohn

We set-up and started breaking-in a 51" and 60" F8500 last Friday afternoon. Kevin Miller will be in this Saturday to calibrate and do an evaluation report on both sizes. We wanted to see how much variation their is in the panel sizes.

We'll do the same with all of the flagship series from every display that will be selected as a finalist for our 2013 Flat Panel Shootout.

Let the games begin! :boxer:

-Robert


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## Ken Ross

JimShaw said:


> I think the only TV that might move me away from a 65F8000 is the F8500. Time will tell!


I'm with you Jim. Let's not forget the ZT60. But if I were betting, I'd say the F8500 trumps the Panny. We shall see.


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## Ken Ross

Robert Zohn said:


> We set-up and started breaking-in a 51" and 60" F8500 last Friday afternoon. Kevin Miller will be in this Saturday to calibrate and do an evaluation report on both sizes. We wanted to see how much variation their is in the panel sizes.
> 
> We'll do the same with all of the flagship series from every display that will be selected as a finalist for our 2013 Flat Panel Shootout.
> 
> Let the games begin! :boxer:
> 
> -Robert


OK Robert, you don't get away that easily buddy! What are your uncalibrated initial impressions? A little birdie that delivered my BDI said it was awesome.


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## Robert Zohn

Okay, I let a little snip-it out. We received the 51" and 60" F8500s last Friday and we've been running break-in slides ever since. In between we'll all viewing video content and doing comparisons as we have the 51" F8500 butt next to the 55" F8000 and VT50 and here's a few comments on what we are seeing.

The F8500 is the best of the lot. 



The F8500 is clearly blacker (without crushing)


Brighter than the VT50, but not the F8000


The F8500 has better color accuracy and color saturation than the VT50 and F8000.
The F8000 is still the brightest of the group. One attribute that I can't understand why, but the F8500 appears to deliver a sharper image. I would imagine that is due to the more saturated colors, but we'll know more on this once Kevin Miller does his evaluation and calibration.

Kevin will be evaluating and calibrating the 51" and 60" so we can determine if there are any variances between screen sizes of the F8500. The 64" F8500 has only been released to Amazon and a handful of large direct dealers. My 64" F8500 allocation is due next week.

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> Okay, I let a little snip-it out. We received the 51" and 60" F8500s last Friday and we've been running break-in slides ever since. In between we'll all viewing video content and doing comparisons as we have the 51" F8500 butt next to the 55" F8000 and VT50 and here's a few comments on what we are seeing.
> 
> The F8500 is the best of the lot.
> 
> 
> 
> The F8500 is clearly blacker (without crushing)
> 
> 
> Brighter than the VT50, but not the F8000
> 
> 
> The F8500 has better color accuracy and color saturation than the VT50 and F8000.
> The F8000 is still the brightest of the group. One attribute that I can't understand why, but *the F8500 appears to deliver a sharper image. * I would imagine that is due to the more saturated colors, but we'll know more on this once Kevin Miller does his evaluation and calibration.
> 
> Kevin will be evaluating and calibrating the 51" and 60" so we can determine if there are any variances between screen sizes of the F8500. The 64" F8500 has only been released to Amazon and a handful of large direct dealers. My 64" F8500 allocation is due next week.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> -Robert


I like a sharp picture. That is why I want the 65F8000 BUT if what you are saying, *"the F8500 appears to deliver a sharper image." * I might have to rethink my next purchase


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## Ken Ross

So Robert, is I know Samsung claimed the 8500 would be "LED Bright" and I wonder if it's a question of the out-of-box settings? If you raised the cell brightness settings, would that make it more competitive with the 8000 in terms of brightness?

It seems that 10 is the default setting and I'm wondering if a bright room setting might tolerate a brighter setting without clipping? Are you finding the whites truly white like we get on an LED as opposed to a milky white that many plasmas exhibit?

It's good to hear about the sharpness though. Generally we don't associate plasmas with that LED sharpness.


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## Robert Zohn

The factory default cell brightness setting in the movie mode was set to 18 and the max. setting is 20, which increases the brightness about 5% to my eye.

In the Movie mode the F8500 is significantly brighter than the VT50, which is in the THX Bright mode. And the whites are much whiter and brighter. However, it's not as bright as the F8000, which was calibrated at 56fl in the Movie mode.

Let's wait for this Saturday's calibration and evaluation to make a final judgement. 

Regarding what appears to be a sharper image on the F8500 vs, the F8000 and VT50 it's not traditional "sharpness" that I am seeing. To me "sharpness" adds noise and I do not see any noise, this is a more defined looking image with more detail. So maybe sharpness is not the best word, detailed is a better explanation. 

Hope this helps.

-Robert


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## surfmlb

Robert,

Sounds great! I'm sure I will be happy coming from an 8G Kuro  I should have my PN51 tomorrow that I ordered from you according to shipping. Thanks again


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## Ken Ross

Great info Robert and very encouraging. I like the much whiter whites as you know. This sounds like a winner.

If you had to guess, how much brighter is the 8000 and, do you see the effects of ABL with full screen whites on the 8500 to the extent that we do on a traditional plasma?


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## pitchman

Robert, you already had me plotting about ways to sell off my UN60ES8000 for a new UN65F8000, but now after reading your initial reaction to the F8500 models, I am forced to rethink my plans and my strategy. :help: Wow! This TV sounds awesome! I've never been much of a plasma person, but I have a feeling that's going to change before the end of 2013. If the 3D on the 64" model proves to be comparable to its Sammy LED brethren, then I'm all in.


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## dsskid

This is going to be one hellova shootout this year.


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## Ken Ross

Very nice review. I skimmed through it, but I'm struggling a bit to determine what dimming controls they engaged. The black levels although nice, were not great and I'm not sure if they could have been improved by engaging settings that had not been activated. It seemed that each time they said the black levels were nice, they had a caveat thrown in to pour some cold water on it:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ue55f8000-201303212755.htm


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## ljm

that review is not for the F8500 plasma...... did i miss something!?


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## polakis

Wrong review, wrong thread...


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## surfmlb

Robert, I got my PN51F8500 today. Thank you!!What a great set. You guys are awesome to deal with. I have a lot of pics on the other site


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## Robert Zohn

Hi surfmlb, thanks for the kind words! I'm enjoying our store demos very much as well. Every year display technology leap frogs, this year Samsung's F8500 is like a bull frog on steroids! Great big technological jump forward.

Kevin Miller is calibrating our 51", 60" and 64" F8500 tomorrow. I'll send you some great calibration settings this weekend.

Enjoy your beautiful display for many years to come!

-Robert


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## dsskid

Robert Zohn said:


> Hi surfmlb, thanks for the kind words! I'm enjoying our store demos very much as well. Every year display technology leap frogs, this year Samsung's F8500 is like a *bull frog on steroids*! Great big technological jump forward.
> 
> Kevin Miller is calibrating our 51", 60" and 64" F8500 tomorrow. I'll send you some great calibration settings this weekend.
> 
> Enjoy your beautiful display for many years to come!
> 
> -Robert


I haven't heard that phrase since the Kuro days....is that a hint Robert?


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## surfmlb

Robert Zohn said:


> Hi surfmlb, thanks for the kind words! I'm enjoying our store demos very much as well. Every year display technology leap frogs, this year Samsung's F8500 is like a bull frog on steroids! Great big technological jump forward.
> 
> Kevin Miller is calibrating our 51", 60" and 64" F8500 tomorrow. I'll send you some great calibration settings this weekend.
> 
> Enjoy your beautiful display for many years to come!
> 
> -Robert


Oh I will  and I am already sending referrals your way. I appreciate the settings from Kevin. I'm sure they will be fantastic. :bigsmile: Tell Wendy I said hello and was a pleasure dealing with her as well.

Thanks, Joe Costa


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## Robert Zohn

dsskid said:


> I haven't heard that phrase since the Kuro days....is that a hint Robert?


I think you may have been to too many Shootouts. 



surfmlb said:


> Oh I will  and I am already sending referrals your way. I appreciate the settings from Kevin. I'm sure they will be fantastic. :bigsmile: Tell Wendy I said hello and was a pleasure dealing with her as well.
> 
> Thanks, Joe Costa


Thanks Joe, will so. You stepped up to a great panel and did so before the reviews started to come out. 

Kudos to you!

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

Kevin just left after a very long day evaluating and calibrating the 60" F8500. We have the 51", 60" and 64" but the 64" does not have enough hours on it and we ran out of time so no work was done on the 51".

The report is preliminary as much more work needs to be done to do a proper evaluation, but here's what I can share at the moment. Hopefully we'll have more technical information by tomorrow evening and we scheduled next Friday to evaluate and calibrate the 64" and 51".

Here's some information and measurements from the PN60F8500:

After calibrating the movie mode (we found the Movie mode to be the best for night calibration) for night performance the MLL is 0.001, Peak luminance is 41.8fl

Gamma was easily set to 2.5 and was as flat as a pancake, very excellent results.

In Cal Day the peak luminance was set to 66fl.

3D performance was excellent and through the glasses the luminance level was 17.5fl, very acceptable for 3D.

We very carefully compared the picture quality of our perfectly calibrated 65" VT50 butt next to the F8500 and to the eye they looked very very similar. The F8500 is a little brighter, but colors looked almost identical as did the detail, black level and color saturation. 

With the Samsung F8500 in Cal day and the VT50 in ISF day the Samsung was much brighter and held its black level. 

Just wanted to give you some interesting preliminary facts. Stay tuned for more as we do more evaluation.

-Robert


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## ljm

thank you robert... sweet news!! very much appreciate the preliminary report


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## dsskid

Robert Zohn said:


> Kevin just left after a very long day evaluating and calibrating the 60" F8500. We have the 51", 60" and 64" but the 64" does not have enough hours on it and we ran out of time so no work was done on the 51".
> 
> The report is preliminary as much more work needs to be done to do a proper evaluation, but here's what I can share at the moment. Hopefully we'll have more technical information by tomorrow evening and we scheduled next Friday to evaluate and calibrate the 64" and 51".
> 
> Here's some information and measurements from the PN60F8500:
> 
> After calibrating the movie mode (we found the Movie mode to be the best for night calibration) for night performance the MLL is 0.001, Peak luminance is 41.8fl
> 
> Gamma was easily set to 2.5 and was as flat as a pancake, very excellent results.
> 
> In Cal Day the peak luminance was set to 66fl.
> 
> 3D performance was excellent and through the glasses the luminance level was 17.5fl, very acceptable for 3D.
> 
> We very carefully compared the picture quality of our perfectly calibrated 65" VT50 butt next to the F8500 and to the eye they looked very very similar. The F8500 is a little brighter, but colors looked almost identical as did the detail, black level and color saturation.
> 
> With the Samsung F8500 in Cal day and the VT50 in ISF day the Samsung was much brighter and held its black level.
> 
> Just wanted to give you some interesting preliminary facts. Stay tuned for more as we do more evaluation.
> 
> -Robert


thank you for the report Robert. It looks like the Kuro has been equaled. Great news.


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## JimShaw

m

*Now, I am confused on which to get...


65F8000 or 65F8500, 65F8000 or 65F8500, 65F8000 or 65F8500

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????*




m


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## Ken Ross

Robert, any thoughts on the behavior of the ABL during brighter scenes and how it may compare to the ABL of say the VT50? Just wondering if it's less aggressive.

Things sound excellent so far.


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## sheshechic

Hi Robert. Can you tell us if any IR was seen and if there was noticeable buzz?


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## Robert Zohn

Ken Ross said:


> Robert, any thoughts on the behavior of the ABL during brighter scenes and how it may compare to the ABL of say the VT50? Just wondering if it's less aggressive.
> 
> Things sound excellent so far.


The ABL is tamer than previous models from all manufacturers, but still there.

Thanks Ken! -Robert



sheshechic said:


> Hi Robert. Can you tell us if any IR was seen and if there was noticeable buzz?


We ran the panel for 100 hrs to stabilize it and there is no IR. 

I can't comment much on the panel buzz as my golden ears are now in there golden years. But I did have one of my respected techs do the buzz test and he hears the panel buzz, but says when the TV volume is set to 9 (which is very low) the buzz goes away. The buzz is very directional, the sound-wave footprint is very narrow; directly in front of the panel between 6' to 12'. (move 1' of center and it's gone)

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

I see some talk on AVS Forum about ABL and here's what I'm told; The new cell structure led to far more electrical efficiency. So in my words, more light output with no additional current. 

We can also take note that the F8500 did not win the highest energy star rating so I suspect a larger power supply, which can handle higher peak demands without limiting the power and therefore reducing the effects of ABL.

Sorry I can't post on AVS Forum to directly answer this and the many more posts that would benefit by my replies.

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> Sorry I can't post on AVS Forum to directly answer this and the many more posts that would benefit by my replies.
> 
> -Robert


I am posting in AVS for you in your name.

I'll probably get banned


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## Robert Zohn

I just posted a photo album on *my F85000 site* that shows the calibrated 60" F8500 next to the calibrated 65" VT50. 

Enjoy!

-Robert

P.S. Just noticed the photos show a glimpse of our new store in the background. We set the panels up in our dedicated demo theater but left the drapery open.


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## Ken Ross

Very nice Robert. This sure looks to be a winner big time! Let's see, 3-4 weeks to the move, can you put a 64" aside for me?

I'll try to get up to see you this week to see the panel. 

I bounce back and forth. First plasma ala Kuro, then LED ala Elite and back to plasma ala Sammy. Whod'a thunk?


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## Robert Zohn

Wise choice Ken. All of these are outstanding panels, but at this time the F8500 is unquestionably the very best available. 

Kevin Miller will be posting his F8500 review with calibration charts on TweakTV tomorrow. 

Looking forward to seeing you again soon.

-Robert


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## surfmlb

Robert,

Thanks for all the great information. This set is outstanding. I would think you would have them all sold by now. Looking forward to some calibration settings. I cant imagine it getting better then what movie mode setting has to offer now. Why can't you post on AVS? Just curious. Thanks again for getting me the PN51F8500 so quickly and unharmed. :clap:


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks Joe! Happy to share our calibration settings with you.

I had a falling out with the previous owner and very sadly I got banned. 

-Robert


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## realzven

Thanks Robert to the great info you provide


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks realzven, Photography, Cinema-photography and a/v is my lifetime passion. I enjoy sharing and supporting my hobby with all who are interested.

I want to comment on what I have been reading on other forums about my work and Kevin Miller's evaluation and calibration. 

First, regarding the photography. I took all of the photos; the displays are in line at the same angle and distance. The VT50 and F8500 were both perfectly calibrated by Kevin Miller. The only variation is that the VT50 has 250 hrs and the F8500 has 120 hrs of break-in.

Also, I'd like anyone who takes information and or photography to please credit Value Electronics and me for the content. Also if you take the information from a forum credit the forum. Anyone is welcome to use my data, but please credit the source.

Finally, regarding the buzz, all plasma displays buzz. It's a normal anomaly and they all buzz exactly the same within a very slim 5% tolerance. 

The buzz is caused by the oscillation of the PDP. Larger panels buzz louder as well as bright scenes that excite the panel. The panel oscillation creates a sound wave that has a very narrow footprint aimed directly in front of the panel. The sound wave can be best heard between 4' and 12' directly in front of the panel. When you move as little as 1' left or right the buzz is almost gone. Also a room with background ambient noise or when the audio volume is set to a normal listening level no one can hear any buzz.

Most folks lose the ability to hear the PDP oscillation frequency after the age of 35, however, a very small population can hear the fq up to about 45 years old.

Hope this helps clear up a few items. And I suggest those truly interested in learning more about the F8500 and all other displays to join this fine forum so we can discuss this openly and easily for all to learn.

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## Slickman

Hi Robert I'm new to the forum, I'm sure you've seen me over on another forum where I posted a picture from your site. I've since edited the original post to give credit for the photo, I do apologize for not giving credit initially. Anyway I'm glad to be a member of this forum now and look forward to hearing more about the Samsung F8500 plasma. Thanks!


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## Robert Zohn

Hi Slickman. Welcome to HTS! Very glad you joined and thanks for the very nice first post!

You have the HTS and my 100% dedication to make your a/v experiences the best possible.

Best,

-Robert


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## polakis

Hi Robert. I am new to the forum too. I live in Athens Greece. I own a 64E8000. And yes it buzzes but its not disturbing. I plan to sell it though and buy the new 64F8500 because i am amazed from all these positive reviews. It seems to be the top tv of our time (maby except ZT60 but its way more expensive and only 60" here in Greece) and i cant miss it...

One question. The black pop off and on when the screen goes complete black still exists like the 64E8000? Especially during end credits?


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## Ken Ross

Robert Zohn said:


> Thanks Joe! Happy to share our calibration settings with you.
> 
> I had a falling out with the previous owner and very sadly I got banned.
> 
> -Robert


And with that, AVS lost a valuable contributor.


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## Ken Ross

Robert Zohn said:


> T
> Most folks lose the ability to hear the PDP oscillation frequency after the age of 35, however, a very small population can hear the fq up to about 45 years old.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> -Robert


One of the few 'benefits' of aging.


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## Slickman

Any word on exactly when the TweakTV review is being posted?


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## tomboyter

Hi Robert,

Thanks again for all of your efforts to inform, all of us appreciate you and we hope that you know it and will continue your good work. I have not heard anyone say anything about the reflectivity of the F8500 screen and its suitability for rooms with windows in front and on the side...do you think that the anti-reflective coating solves the problem or can you compare it to the F8000 LCD in this regard? TIA, Tom Boyter


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## Robert Zohn

Kevin Miller's review is up.

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

To me the reflections are quite similar to the VT50, but the F8500 is significantly brighter so the reflections are not as noticeable. 

So with both panels powered off they reflect about the same, but when content is running you don't notice it as much on the F8500.

-Robert



tomboyter said:


> Hi Robert,
> 
> Thanks again for all of your efforts to inform, all of us appreciate you and we hope that you know it and will continue your good work. I have not heard anyone say anything about the reflectivity of the F8500 screen and its suitability for rooms with windows in front and on the side...do you think that the anti-reflective coating solves the problem or can you compare it to the F8000 LCD in this regard? TIA, Tom Boyter


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## surfmlb

Do you know if the Mar 19, 2013 Firmware update was installed. Samsung says 
- Picture quality is improved.

- Performance is improved.

- Some bugs is fixed.


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## Robert Zohn

Yes ^^ we always force the latest FW updates before calibrating.

-Robert


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## Ken Ross

I guess this is what confuses me the most in Kevin's review (which is very nicely done):

"While the Samsung is slightly lower in its black level, and may even get lower with more break-in time, the luminance of the white squares of an ANSI checkerboard pattern do not measure as bright as they did on last year’s Panasonic TC-P65VT50, which brings the contrast ratio down on the Samsung. This is odd considering I set the peak light output at the beginning of the calibration on the Samsung to 40 fL, and the Panasonic only achieved 33 fL in the Night mode calibration."

Kevin does go on to say the issue is relatively minor, but I wonder what's causing this?


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## Robert Zohn

It would take a very astute ^^ gentleman to spot this. We're not sure ourselves. We're going to remeasure the on screen ANSI with our calibrated VT50 this Thursday to confirm our initial readings. 

You are one sharp dude.

-Robert


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## Ken Ross

Thanks Robert. Not that astute, just read his review carefully.


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## surfmlb

Robert,

How come I don't see a 2013 Samsung listed on your home theater equipment list? :scratch:


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## Robert Zohn

I need more rooms in my house 

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Robert

I have never owned a plasma and the 64F8500 has my interest. If I go plasma this time, it will be my first. From reading about IR and burn-in, I get nervous.

My wife loves watching HGTV all day while she is working in the home. On HGTV there is a logo that is displayed on the lower right of the picture and it will be there all day virtually everyday.

In your opinion, under this situation, would it be better for me to stick with an LED vs Plasma?


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## JimShaw

Robert

One more question:

Regarding having you calibrate before shipping.

Is it better to calibrate a TV in its own environment ?

If not, do you need to know how dark in the evening or light in the morning/afternoon the room is for calibrating?


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## Robert Zohn

Hi Jim, Regarding plasma susceptibility to burn-in, I suggest a good long break-in to stabilize the panel. However with that said it is a small concern with the same logo stagnate for long periods every day.

LCD/LED can get static images burned-in, but it takes longer extended static images to permanently damage a LCD/LED panel.

The main advantage in getting the display calibrated in your home is that your equipment is attached to the display so the calibrator can make all of the best possible adjustments to the source devices to ensure they are passing the best signal.

We do discuss the daytime and nigh time ambient light conditions. However, this issue does not mean much as it varies so much based on the season, time of day and weather conditions. So typically we calibrate the panel to be a bright as possible for Day and as black as possible for Night, of course, without clipping the lightest shades or crushing the deepest shades.

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Robert

I thank you for your knowledge.

I'm hoping to see the 51F8500 tomorrow but because of my concerns, it will probably be the 65F8000 this year and if that is the final decision, I would want you to pick out the perfect 65F8000 and calibrate it to perfection. Oh, the pressure we fanatical videophiles apply.


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks Jim. Actually I forgot to mention the benefits in letting us take care of the calibration is having the display properly aged to stabilize the panel and the quality assurance.

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> Thanks Jim. Actually I forgot to mention the benefits in letting us take care of the calibration is having the display properly aged to stabilize the panel and the quality assurance.
> 
> -Robert


I know. That is why I want you to look it over. If I go with the 65F8000, I am worried about last year's 65ES8000 problem, BANDING


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## polakis

Robert if you had to choose a tv for this year which would it be? 64F8500, ST60, VT60 or ZT60?


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## Robert Zohn

Hi polakis, it's hard to say as we have not seen the VT60 or ZT60 production units. All I've seen are hand made prototypes at CES in private meetings off the show floor and in the exhibit booths. 

I can say the F8500 is as near perfect in the following attributes:


excellent black level
exceptional peak luminance
near perfect color accuracy
great color saturation
flat gamma
exceptional video processing
exceptional 3D, due to it's ability to deliver very high luminance
excellent design and build quality
excellent feature set
great remote and Smart interface menu
quad core fast processors
great value

Hope this helps.

-Robert


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## polakis

Thanks Robert. One more question. I own a samsung ps64e8000 plasma non calibrated. Is it worth it to sell it and buy the new 64f8500?


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## Robert Zohn

I can't make that decision for you, but the F8500 is a very big jump in overall picture quality from the E8000.

You would easily see the picture quality advantages on the F8500.

-Robert


----------



## ljm

Robert Zohn said:


> I can't make that decision for you, but the F8500 is a very big jump in overall picture quality from the E8000.
> 
> You would easily see the picture quality advantages on the F8500.
> 
> -Robert


after reading all the forums :rubeyes: and new prof. reviews i was getting very nervous about my order for f8500... thank you so much for your last couple posts :sweat: it was just what i needed to ease my building anxiety! i can now rest easy and look forward to getting an awesome tv. thank you so much for all the valuable info.. very much appreciated :bigsmile:


----------



## dvrw2

About Black Optimizer, I think this Samsung's patent (can't post links) describes the mode of operation. 

In scenes with a high Average Picture Level (APL) - that is, scenes which have a high proportion of bright elements - the ABL will reduce the overall brightness output of the plasma panel to stabilize power consumption; conversely in scenes which have a lower proportion of brighter elements (low APL), the overall brightness of the scene is allowed to be higher. 

I think the Black Optimizer works with the same logic, analyzes the APL/grayscale frame by frame and adjusts Reset Time in 8 zones (subfields) to reduce the black level and/or rise brightness . 

Traditionally most plasmas worsens the black level of the ANSI test, but in 2012 models the black level was stable. My doubt is whether the black level changes because of the APL analysis by Black Optimizer, or simply because it worsens with white on screen. If it is because of Black Optimizer, scenes with another value of APL may have a better black values more relevant to the content that we see in everyday (sports APL has average 40%, 20% movies). In the 4x4 ANSI test, the APL is 50% (8x 0% IRE squares and 8x 100% IRE), rarely we see some content with APL so high.










Some movies examples:

























































It would be great if Kevin could test the ANSI with 10%, 20%, 30% and 40% APL. 

An example for an 20% APL: (4x4 checkeboard, 8 squares of 0% IRE and 8 with 40% IRE).


----------



## surfmlb

Robert,

There is a new firmware upgrade for the PN51F8500. You had told me you always force the latest updates before calibration. Do you know If it was actually done on the one Kevin Miller calibrated? I cant seem to get this one to upgrade.The image just has one file called upgrade.msd. There are a few others that can't get it to work either. The set PN60F8500 has the same exact file and was wondering If you guys did do the update because I don't recall him saying he did in his review. 

Thanks, Joe

Update: I tried the web chat support and was told I have the latest update which is 1015.2 Our TV's just don't show the .2 Not sure how accurate Chat tech support is but I did update TV when I first turned it on just not sure what version it had before I did.


----------



## polakis

Robert 

I noticed some posts in other forums about some problems with the F8500. They mentioned brightness pops especially in hockey games, floating blacks with black optimizer on and a wierd very thin horizontal band in the middle of the screen that appears mostly in white backround.

Have you noticed anything of these?


----------



## JimShaw

polakis said:


> Robert
> 
> I noticed some posts in other forums about some problems with the F8500. They mentioned brightness pops especially in hockey games, floating blacks with black optimizer on and a wierd very thin horizontal band in the middle of the screen that appears mostly in white backround.
> 
> Have you noticed anything of these?


You have also forgot about the "Fluctuation" people have been talking about.

I have personally sat in front of four different 64F8500's at four different Best Buys. I have played 2-3 Blu-rays and watched them on the sets. I have searched for every flaw that I could find for a total of over four hours and I have not seen one pop, not one floating black, not one band, not one fluctuation.

All I could see was a beautiful picture on a non-calibrated TV with skin tones and color better than my calibrated 55B8000.

For the life of me, I do not see what a few owners are talking about.


----------



## Robert Zohn

polakis said:


> Robert
> 
> I noticed some posts in other forums about some problems with the F8500. They mentioned brightness pops especially in hockey games, floating blacks with black optimizer on and a wierd very thin horizontal band in the middle of the screen that appears mostly in white backround.
> 
> Have you noticed anything of these?


After much viewing and evaluation I can now say I do see some very slight brightness fluctuation. On our three calibrated F8500s, 51", 60" and 64" sizes I was able to finally recreate the issue in one scene, but it's very slight and hard to see and only exists in very select scenes. I think we don't see it as our panels are very well calibrated and when the panel is properly set-up the brightness fluctuation issue is greatly minimized. In fact, it's non existent in our Cal Day mode.

I can not recreate any floating black level whatsoever. And no horizontal band or any other anomaly of any kind on any of our three F8500s or any of the dozen F8500s we have installed locally. 

I don't doubt anyone's experiences, but other than our 15 or so F85000s we have seen and no review has seen the last two issues you asked about.

-Robert


----------



## polakis

Thanks Robert. What about a non calibrated model?


----------



## Robert Zohn

I don't have any non-calibrated models on display. And on the dozen we locally installed my techs put in the calibration settings from our store demo units.

Kevin Miller did our store calibration and he put some general settings in his review. 

-Robert


----------



## polakis

Hi Robert. I'm reading in an other forum that Samsung has a new firmware coming soon, because of the brightness pops and floating blacks that many buyers mentioned. Is it true? Thanks


----------



## Robert Zohn

Yes, it's true^^ I've been working with Samsung to get a few items fixed and some enhancements. Things are progressing nicely. It's nice working with a company that are dedicated to making their products as great as they can be.

-Robert


----------



## polakis

Thats great thanks!


----------



## Matt Marceau

*Re: Samsung 2013 PNxxF8500, 51, 60, and 64*



Robert Zohn said:


> Yes, its true^^ Ive been working with Samsung to get a few items fixed and some enhancements. Things are progressing nicely. Its nice working with a company that are dedicated to making their products as great as they can be.
> 
> -Robert


Robert, Im wondering if you could describe what might be included in this firmware update. Other than fixing the brightness pops that happen on occasion, is there the possibility that the overall black level will be lowered? Dark Room setting with black optimizer seems to lower blacks on a 0IRE signal, but doesnt seem to effect contrast with actual content, at least thats what I noticed first hand. 

Having spent some time watching the set in Home Theater type conditions, it continues to impress me and is the first picture I have seen that makes me consider purchasing a new plasma after my 500m. Theres a clarity and brightness that is unlike anything I have seen from plasma.


----------



## floridaman

*Re: Samsung 2013 PNxxF8500, 51, 60, and 64*



Robert Zohn said:


> Yes, its true^^ Ive been working with Samsung to get a few items fixed and some enhancements. Things are progressing nicely. Its nice working with a company that are dedicated to making their products as great as they can be.
> 
> -Robert


Robert:

I discovered an issue with the Eco sensor settings that needs to be reported to Samsung. As you know the Eco sensor should be turned off and mine was always turned off. I continually noticed that my picture was always dim. I had the set calibrated with a Cal Day mode today and used Movie mode in place of Cal Night. After the calibration I noticed when switching the picture modes that the dimming would go away until you selected a mode. The picture would gradually get dimmer after selecting Cal Day mode and actually all the modes had this problem but it was more prevalent in the Cal Day mode. I was completely baffled and then decided to look at the Eco sensor setting to be sure it was off and it was. There is another setting below Eco sensor called cell light minimum. This option was greyed out and set to 0. You would think since the Eco sensor is off that the cell light setting would be a mute point. I decided to engage the Eco sensor and this allowed me to adjust the cell light minimum. I set it to 20 and then turned the Eco sensor off. Guess what, this eliminated the dimming issue. I finally got to see the bright picture that everyone is raving about on the forums. Basically if the Eco sensor is off and cell light minimum is set to 0 it behaves like it does when it is turned on. I am pretty sure this is a software bug. You might want to relay this to Samsung and Kevin Miller. I wonder if this is what was causing black levels to fluctuate.


----------



## Robert Zohn

*Re: Samsung 2013 PNxxF8500, 51, 60, and 64*



gmarceau said:


> Robert, Im wondering if you could describe what might be included in this firmware update. Other than fixing the brightness pops that happen on occasion, is there the possibility that the overall black level will be lowered? Dark Room setting with black optimizer seems to lower blacks on a 0IRE signal, but doesnt seem to effect contrast with actual content, at least thats what I noticed first hand.
> 
> Having spent some time watching the set in Home Theater type conditions, it continues to impress me and is the first picture I have seen that makes me consider purchasing a new plasma after my 500m. Theres a clarity and brightness that is unlike anything I have seen from plasma.


Floating blacks, brightness fluctuation, and the Cal Night gamma bump at 70% IRE.

-Robert



floridaman said:


> Robert:
> 
> I discovered an issue with the Eco sensor settings that needs to be reported to Samsung. As you know the Eco sensor should be turned off and mine was always turned off. I continually noticed that my picture was always dim. I had the set calibrated with a Cal Day mode today and used Movie mode in place of Cal Night. After the calibration I noticed when switching the picture modes that the dimming would go away until you selected a mode. The picture would gradually get dimmer after selecting Cal Day mode and actually all the modes had this problem but it was more prevalent in the Cal Day mode. I was completely baffled and then decided to look at the Eco sensor setting to be sure it was off and it was. There is another setting below Eco sensor called cell light minimum. This option was greyed out and set to 0. You would think since the Eco sensor is off that the cell light setting would be a mute point. I decided to engage the Eco sensor and this allowed me to adjust the cell light minimum. I set it to 20 and then turned the Eco sensor off. Guess what, this eliminated the dimming issue. I finally got to see the bright picture that everyone is raving about on the forums. Basically if the Eco sensor is off and cell light minimum is set to 0 it behaves like it does when it is turned on. I am pretty sure this is a software bug. You might want to relay this to Samsung and Kevin Miller. I wonder if this is what was causing black levels to fluctuate.


Thanks, I'll test my 51", 60" and 64" store demo displays and if I can reproduce this I'll immediately report it. If I can't reproduce it we'll find out why that is happening to your F8500.

-Robert


----------



## Airgas1998

*Re: Samsung 2013 PNxxF8500, 51, 60, and 64*

my 64"8500 does not have this issue floridaman is talking about. went through his procedure last night, with no difference in diming w/ eco on/off or cell set at 0 or 20.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Airgas1998, thanks for the reply. Is you F8500 calibrated and did you try the Cal Day mode?

-Robert


----------



## thelt2000x

Robert, thanks for all of the information you have provided to us in regards to the new firmware update. I do have a couple of questions. Do you think this will really fix the brightness pop issue for us 64" owners?? And do you have a ETA of this firmware?? 

Thanks


----------



## Robert Zohn

Hi thelt2000x, thanks for joining HTS. Yes, I believe this is the fix for all sizes of F8500 series PDPs. 

No scheduled release date at this moment, but I hope it's available before our May 10th Flat Panel Shootout event.

-Robert


----------



## polakis

Hi Robert. I just received the 64F8500 plasma here in Athens, Greece.

The PQ is outstanding. I have it in movie mode, cell 12, contrast 75. Its already bright for my dark living room! No pops or floating blacks in these settings.

I have one problem though. I also have a very faint horizontal line just above the middle of the panel, that appears in light backrounds like sky, snow etc. Is this the filter that others talked about? Should i return it? Is it a faulty set? Its very faint but visible by me...If i change it, the new will be the same?


----------



## Robert Zohn

I honestly don't know as I do not see it on any of my three demos units or any that we installed locally. I have read one or two folks that have also reported this, but again I have not seen it.

-Robert


----------



## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> I honestly don't know as I do not see it on any of my three demos units or any that we installed locally. I have read one or two folks that have also reported this, but again I have not seen it.
> 
> -Robert


I leave for my cruise this Wednesday and when I get back on April the 10th (when I should have been at your place) I want to order the 64F8500. But of all the so called problems that others have mentioned about this set: the floating black, pops, fluctuation, etc., etc., the only one that worries me is the small band that a few owners have mentioned.

Robert

When I order, with your QC and calibration, is this something you will take a serious look at the panel to see if it does or does not have that small band before shipping?


----------



## B- one

JimShaw said:


> When I order, with your QC and calibration, is this something you will take a serious look at the panel to see if it does or does not have that small band before shipping?


I was wondering how much this great service would cost currently looking for a new display sounds like a great service to offer.


----------



## JimShaw

B- one said:


> I was wondering how much this great service would cost currently looking for a new display sounds like a great service to offer.


Robert should discuss this. It might be different with different displays.

From what I have been told it is $500. This includes having VE go over your display, break it in, calibrated it by the guys that did the Shootout displays, shipping and delivered in side your home. 

For me, it is a good thing. I don't have to pay taxes which is about $280. So, for $220 more, I get to have it REALLY checked out, have it broke in, have it calibrated by an expert not some one from Best Buy and have the support of Robert who has some pull with Samsung, Panasonic, etc.

Here is a blurb from VE's web site

*Tell us you won't settle for anything short of the very best and add our q/c, break-in and then perfectly calibrate your panel.

One of our highly respected Shootout panelists will calibrate your panel for the ultimate day and evening performance*


----------



## Robert Zohn

JimShaw said:


> I leave for my cruise this Wednesday and when I get back on April the 10th (when I should have been at your place) I want to order the 64F8500. But of all the so called problems that others have mentioned about this set: the floating black, pops, fluctuation, etc., etc., the only one that worries me is the small band that a few owners have mentioned.
> 
> Robert
> 
> When I order, with your QC and calibration, is this something you will take a serious look at the panel to see if it does or does not have that small band before shipping?


Yes, plus a bunch more of unlikely but possible issues that can happen to any new complex electronic device. You will be assured that you are receiving a defect free very good sample. That has passed our q/c tests, a complete and proper break-in to stabilize the panel and the best possible Cal Day, Cal Night, Movie and 3D calibration in all 4 HDMI inputs.

-Robert


----------



## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> Yes, plus a bunch more of unlikely but possible issues that can happen to any new complex electronic device. You will be assured that you are receiving a defect free very good sample. That has passed our q/c tests, a complete and proper break-in to stabilize the panel and the best possible Cal Day, Cal Night, Movie and 3D calibration in all 4 HDMI inputs.
> 
> -Robert


I love it.

Thanks and we'll talk after I get back.

You have a great time at the Shootout.


Jim


----------



## joplin321

Hey guys do any of you know where to pick up a part for the optoma HD72 #75.83J01G002


----------



## JimShaw

joplin321 said:


> Hey guys do any of you know where to pick up a part for the optoma HD72 #75.83J01G002


You might want to ask in the projector threads


----------



## Matt Marceau

Robert, Ken had mentioned on another board that the new firmware update is looking to be a success. Did Kevin do any measurements on the panel again? What are your thoughts on the update?

Thanks


----------



## polakis

Robert we have many reports for the faint horizontal band just above the middle of the panel that appears in light backrounds like snow and blue sky. Not only in panning scenes but in still images also. Can you please ask your Samsung people if they are aware of the problem? Thanks


----------



## Robert Zohn

gmarceau said:


> Robert, Ken had mentioned on another board that the new firmware update is looking to be a success. Did Kevin do any measurements on the panel again? What are your thoughts on the update?
> 
> Thanks


I have a slightly more advanced update than what is coming in the next week. I have not tested 1017.2, but am told it fixes floating blacks, fluctuating brightness. The Beta firmware I have perfectly fixes the above issues and a few calibration enhancements we also asked for.

-Robert



polakis said:


> Robert we have many reports for the faint horizontal band just above the middle of the panel that appears in light backrounds like snow and blue sky. Not only in panning scenes but in still images also. Can you please ask your Samsung people if they are aware of the problem? Thanks


This is a very rare anomaly that has only been reported on a very few panels, in fact, I think it was three or less. I have to seen it on the 30+ we have sold.

-Robert


----------



## Airgas1998

Robert Zohn said:


> I have a slightly more advanced update than what is coming in the next week. I have not tested 1017.2, but am told it fixes floating blacks, fluctuating brightness. The Beta firmware I have perfectly fixes the above issues and a few calibration enhancements we also asked for.
> 
> -Robert
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very rare anomaly that has only been reported on a very few panels, in fact, I think it was three or less. I have to seen it on the 30+ we have sold.
> 
> -Robert


Robert, kudos to you and Samsung on a very speedy pace in getting the fw out for the above mentioned issues.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Thank you Airgas1998. I sincerely appreciate your kind remarks! I work hard to get all manufacturers to fix and enhance the picture quality and reliability of all a/v products.

These fixes and upgrades will help make our 9th Flat Panel HDTV Shootout evaluation a far more exciting event.

-Robert


----------



## polakis

Robert when the firmware will be available for us consumers?


----------



## Robert Zohn

If all goes as planned by the end of this coming week. The only way to get this upgrade, ver. 1017.2 is through and automatic download method. So be sure your F8500 is set-up for auto upgrades.

Please do not contact Samsung custom support they can not get you this upgrade and likely do not know about it.

-Robert


----------



## polakis

Thanks. Which option of auto update should i choose? It has 1 hour after standby, 2 hours, and some specific time options.


----------



## cdjocp

hey robert or anyone with knowledge on subject since you have had hands on with the f8500 how does it compare in your opinion to the sony hx950 was considering returning my sony and getting this tv your help and opinion is greatly appreciated thanks in advance.

How does PQ compare between the two to the eye.


----------



## Robert Zohn

polakis said:


> Thanks. Which option of auto update should i choose? It has 1 hour after standby, 2 hours, and some specific time options.


I suggest the fastest option.

-Robert



cdjocp said:


> hey robert or anyone with knowledge on subject since you have had hands on with the f8500 how does it compare in your opinion to the sony hx950 was considering returning my sony and getting this tv your help and opinion is greatly appreciated thanks in advance.
> 
> How does PQ compare between the two to the eye.


Not sure how they compare as I have not had them next to each other. Sony's HX950 is a very good display. The only issues I know of are screen uniformity and poor off axes viewing. 

When you have a good display I always suggest not changing unless you have a defect or want to upgrade.

-Robert


----------



## cdjocp

thanks Robert the main reason would be because of off axis viewing can't stand walking around and the pic washes out so bad so the pq on the f8500 is excellent


----------



## Robert Zohn

Agreed, if you have off axes viewing Samsung's F8500 is an excellent choice. It's the brightest of all plasmas available. 

-Robert


----------



## B- one

Hey Robert I was wondering we currently have a 73 inch Mits dlp it's our living room tv we are looking to get a new display after your shootout how do plasma and led displays compare to dlp like viewing angles and other things you could think of? The Samsung 8000 65 inch looks like a good bet for our needs with light coming in but we could block it if needed and go plasma was just waiting to see how they shook out in your shootout it sounds like it will be a good time. I look forward to your thoughts and can't wait for the event to happen.


----------



## Robert Zohn

B- one, thanks for asking. Samsung's F8000 is the best edge lit LED display I've ever seen. Although I must say I'm looking forward to getting LG's 60" LA8600 on our Shootout wall. The only issue with any LED panel is off axes viewing, but your DLP, which was the best large screen DLP display suffers somewhat from degraded off axes viewing.

In your application I suggest carefully considering Samsung's F8500 plasma as it's by far the brightest PDP and delivers an outstanding image quality in all ambient light conditions.

Our new store is much larger so we can accommodate up to 50 participants per night so we still have some seats available and if you can possible make the Flat Panel Shootout evaluation we'd love to have you attend.

For all who can't attend we're about to sign-up again with Livestream for our moderated HD live webcast. So no excuses for anyone to miss this event.

-Robert


----------



## B- one

Robert Zohn said:


> B- one, thanks for asking. Samsung's F8000 is the best edge lit LED display I've ever seen. Although I must say I'm looking forward to getting LG's 60" LA8600 on our Shootout wall. The only issue with any LED panel is off axes viewing, but your DLP, which was the best large screen DLP display suffers somewhat from degraded off axes viewing.
> 
> In your application I suggest carefully considering Samsung's F8500 plasma as it's by far the brightest PDP and delivers an outstanding image quality in all ambient light conditions.
> 
> Our new store is much larger so we can accommodate up to 50 participants per night so we still have some seats available and if you can possible make the Flat Panel Shootout evaluation we'd love to have you attend.
> 
> For all who can't attend we're about to sign-up again with Livestream for our moderated HD live webcast. So no excuses for anyone to miss this event.
> 
> -Robert


I will keep my options open for now there's no way I could get out for the shootout but would love to any special way to find it online I only work off my iPhone but at least it's a free work perk the deal with the tablet could be nice bigger screen and buttons.


----------



## thelt2000x

Robert,

Was the update that was pushed out today on Samsung's website supposed to be the one that fixed the brightness pops?


----------



## Robert Zohn

I can't confirm ^^ that, but I believe yes. 

-Robert


----------



## thelt2000x

Robert,

Sorry about the question earlier. It was probably not detailed enough. This update was a manual update off of the website. Version 1101. It was for plasma and LCD LED. What you thjnk.? Think there will be another one just for the 8500?


----------



## Robert Zohn

I honestly don't know. I was expecting ver. 1017.2 so I don't know what this fixes. I'll send an email to my contact at Samsung and post what I find out.

-Robert


----------



## thelt2000x

Hey Robert. Any good news on the firmware update?


----------



## Robert Zohn

I believe the website download fixes the fluctuating brightness and floating blacks.

-Robert


----------



## Airgas1998

Robert Zohn said:


> I believe the website download fixes the fluctuating brightness and floating blacks.
> 
> -Robert


I wish Robert, but no it doesn't fw1101.2 is what's out there and it is also valid for their lcd/led line up.


----------



## thelt2000x

Airgas1998 said:


> I wish Robert, but no it doesn't fw1101.2 is what's out there and it is also valid for their lcd/led line up.


This is very very disappointing. I am glad I returned my set. I was almost going to keep it because of the supposed firmware fix but thought better if it. If they do fix this problem I will get another....until then...no dice.:foottap:


----------



## Robert Zohn

I am 100% sure the fix is either in 1101.2 or is coming very soon. I personally tested it and can tell you it works.

-Robert


----------



## thelt2000x

Robert Zohn said:


> I am 100% sure the fix is either in 1101.2 or is coming very soon. I personally tested it and can tell you it works.
> 
> -Robert


I am hoping the latter because the 1101 update did not fix anything.:sad:


----------



## Robert Zohn

Thanks I just found out the same from Airgas1998. 

I have a call into my Samsung engineer contact and I'll find out when the next update will be released. I have the firmware that fixes that and a few other small items mostly dealing with calibration. So I know it's soon to come.

-Robert


----------



## thelt2000x

Robert Zohn said:


> Thanks I just found out the same from Airgas1998.
> 
> I have a call into my Samsung engineer contact and I'll find out when the next update will be released. I have the firmware that fixes that and a few other small items mostly dealing with calibration. So I know it's soon to come.
> 
> -Robert


Thanks for all the info Robert!


----------



## polakis

Thanks for the info Robert. The new fix will come in European model also? Can you ask the Samsung tech guy? Thanks


----------



## Damien Inferno

Hi Robert,

I just installed the just posted May 4th firmware update 1102.2 from the samsung website. It says:

This firmware is for TV Model(s): PDP F8500

The version is 1102.2

This firmware update will improve the following:

- Improves picture quality.

- Supports more MSO in OnTV feature.

- Enhances Voice Recognition feature.

The first thing I did was play the rangers hockey game on my directv dvr.
Im sad to say im still seeing brightness pops........................
I really hope this isn't supposed to be the one we have all been waiting for
Look forward to hearing the info you get from Samsung.


----------



## thelt2000x

Damien Inferno said:


> Hi Robert,
> 
> I just installed the just posted May 4th firmware update 1102.2 from the samsung website. It says:
> 
> This firmware is for TV Model(s): PDP F8500
> 
> The version is 1102.2
> 
> This firmware update will improve the following:
> 
> - Improves picture quality.
> 
> - Supports more MSO in OnTV feature.
> 
> - Enhances Voice Recognition feature.
> 
> The first thing I did was play the rangers hockey game on my directv dvr.
> Im sad to say im still seeing brightness pops........................
> I really hope this isn't supposed to be the one we have all been waiting for
> Look forward to hearing the info you get from Samsung.


:sad:


----------



## Robert Zohn

No worries, the fix is coming soon.

-Robert


----------



## Damien Inferno

Robert Zohn said:


> No worries, the fix is coming soon.
> 
> -Robert


Thats good to know Robert. I was really thinking 1102.2 was the fix because it is especially for the F8500 and also because its the second update released in a week.


----------



## thelt2000x

Robert Zohn said:


> No worries, the fix is coming soon.
> 
> -Robert


So there will be another update Robert? If so, there is still hope!!:bigsmile:


----------



## Robert Zohn

Okay boys, download ver. 1103, which has just become available and your fluctuating brightness with be nothing but history.

Enjoy!

-Robert


----------



## polakis

Great news Robert. Can you ask your tech guys if a Europe update will come also? We have the pops in Europe too...


----------



## Robert Zohn

My contacts are Samsung USA. But, I asked and all they promised is that they will send there findings and FW to Samsung EU. 

-Robert


----------



## polakis

Robert Zohn said:


> My contacts are Samsung USA. But, I asked and all they promised is that they will send there findings and FW to Samsung EU.
> 
> -Robert


Thanks alot Robert! Great news for us European owners! I hope we get the firmware too!


----------



## B- one

Robert Zohn said:


> Okay boys, download ver. 1103, which has just become available and your fluctuating brightness with be nothing but history.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> -Robert


Great news just in time for the shootout I'm waiting patiently it will be hard to part with the money but I'm sure it will be worth it!


----------



## polakis

I just sent an email to Samsung Greece in order to inform their
europe central to bring the new
Firmware in Europe/Greece.. I hope they will...


----------



## Robert Zohn

I think I can help ^^ with this. 

-Robert


----------



## dvrw2

Robert...

If I can ask you a favor... please ask them to enable the CalDay mode in service menu for European models. That makes a big difference in brightness for bright rooms and also in 3D.


----------



## Damien Inferno

Hi Robert,

I just wanted to say the 1103 update has been spectacular! Besides completely stopping the brightness fluctuations in all 2D content blacks seem deeper and the picture itself is much sharper and better. The Samsung engineers are amazing to say the least. Unfortunately though there are still brightness fluctuations that can be seen when viewing 3D content. Another problem is that there is a lag when playing video games. With the exception of these 2 problems this tv is perfect and by far the best ive ever owned. Anyway I hope you can report these issues to your contacts at Samsung and I hope you have a great shootout! Thanks also for all you've done in helping make this tv better than ever too! 

Edit: I can confirm the May 10th firmware update 1103.1 did not eliminate the 3D brightness pops.


----------



## polakis

I just received an answer-email from Samsung Greece concerning the latest firmware fix for brightness pops. They sent me to the Greek Samsung download site which has the new firmware for us 1004.7

I think its the one that UK already released some days ago, right? I will install it ASAP. They also told me that they are aware of the new USA firmware that was released 2-3 days ago, and the same firmware will come to us europeans too! They told me to wait and soon it will be available!!!


----------



## endlessender

Hi Robert,

I'd like to echo what Damien Inferno has said. The F8500 has a pretty major problem IMO with full screen brightness fluctuations in 3D. I'm wondering if you have discussed this with Samsung or if you can provide nay information at all about this issue. 

:help: I've asked Samsung repeatedly via phone about this but to absolutely no avail. I would so very much appreciate any insight you can offer. It's a really problem that tarnishes an otherwise incredible display. 

I know some don't care, but more and more 3D films are appearing daily and the real marquee films I tend to watch are in 3D. This doesn't seem normal for a TV of this caliber and Samsung should absolutely 100% be made aware of such an obvious problem.

I would be forever grateful if you could use whatever influence you have to at least make Samsung aware of this problem. Id be even more grateful if you could relay any information you might come across.

Thank you for your time and for hosting a most excellent shootout.

Sincerely.:help:


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## endlessender

Re-posting this here in case it is of any use to F8500 owners: (hope I'm not violating TOS in doing so)


Hi Robert,

I cant tell you how much appreciate your willingness to hep out here. Let me provide some detailed information on reproducing the problem. I have also included a BD title below with detailed descriptions of exactly where one can see this behavior. Just a couple general notes first:


 The "pops" I'm describing are (in almost all cases) a one step brightness _increase_ that seems to change hue somewhat as well.
In general the problem shows on scenes that tend to be somewhat monotone and/or indoors.
In the vast majority of cases, it happens directly after a cut where the scene changes. 
Cinema Smooth must not be enabled, otherwise the problem does not present itself. The problem is best scene with Motion Judder Canceller set to "Standard" (Off and Smooth will also work but sometimes the pops manifest at slightly different times or intensity)
 Dynamic Contrast on High seems to keep a percentage of the pops from happening, but some are still apparent even with this setting engaged. It does change the behavior though. For instance, Chapter 1 in the BD title below is fixed with Dynamic Contrast on High but not Chapter 5.
 Decreasing contrast settings to something like 70 or so seems to reduce or eliminate the pops.

Here are details as to where one can easily view these brightness pops.

BD Title: Prometheus 3D
Chapter 1:
@2:47 Mist from waterfall toggles bright/dark
@3:16 = full screen brightness change when figure's face shows on screen (this is arguably the prime example)
@3:22 = full screen brightness change apparent if you look at the water in background
Chapter 2
@6:06 = full screen brightness pop right when "Isle of Skye" shows on screen
Chapter 5
@15:14 = full screen brightness pop
@15.43 = full screen brightness pop
@15:46 = full screen brightness pop
@16:06 = full screen brightness pop
@17:03 = full screen brightness pop (very slight)

The problem also manifests rather regularly in Tangled 3D, Brave 3D, and (i'm told) Alice in Wonderland 3D

I hope this information is of use to somebody. As you can see, it's quite prevalent, especially in some titles.

If there is anything more I can offer please don't hesitate to contact me via PM or otherwise. I'm more than happy to offer whatever information I can for Samsung to be able to identify and hopefully eradicate this issue.

My sincere thanks again.


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## polakis

Robert how can i check the manufacture date of my 64F8500? Is it somewhere in the back of the tv?


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## tomboyter

I do sincerely hope that Samsung will continue the effort to eliminate this last apparent "glitch" and not just say now that the Shootout is over we can rest on our laurels....well deserved laurels though they are !


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## endlessender

tomboyter said:


> I do sincerely hope that Samsung will continue the effort to eliminate this last apparent "glitch" and not just say now that the Shootout is over we can rest on our laurels....well deserved laurels thought they are !


Agreed. i was concerned about the same thing.

I have reason to believe they are actually actively working to fix this issue.


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## Robert Zohn

Just launched a new promotion.

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> Just launched a new promotion.
> 
> -Robert



That is something. Great deal. I should have purchased tomorrow the 17th vs the 15th.:crying:


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## B- one

The remote that's not included would be a great option yes I know we all have fancy remotes but I'm not sure about the swipe pad remote that comes standard. Haven't heard if Robert got a supply of them in but he did mention he might.


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## Robert Zohn

JimShaw said:


> That is something. Great deal. I should have purchased tomorrow the 17th vs the 15th.:crying:


Orders that have not shipped yet and new order that are placed today can have a choice of the free Galaxy 7" tablet or any of the three new items at no charge. Jim take another look at our website home page and send me an email with your choice.

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> Orders that have not shipped yet and new order that are placed today can have a choice of the free Galaxy 7" tablet or any of the three new items at no charge. Jim take another look at our website home page and send me an email with your choice.
> 
> -Robert


No need, I am extremely happy that way things are. 

I am now getting excited. The size of the set is bigger than the cabinet is to go into. A 55" is in side right now. So, I have to build a wall inside the cabinet and attach an articulating TV mount to it.

The mount will hold the TV on the out side of the cabinet with the TV pushed up against the cabinet.

It will look good and most important, I have my wife's blessing.

Isn't it amazing what we will go through to go BIGGER?


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## B- one

JimShaw said:


> No need, I am extremely happy that way things are.
> 
> I am now getting excited. The size of the set is bigger than the cabinet it is to go into. A 55" is in side right now. So, I have to build a wall inside the cabinet and attach an articulating TV mount to it.
> 
> The mount will hold the TV on the out side of the cabinet with the TV pushed up against the cabinet.
> 
> It will look good and most important, I have my wife's blessing.
> 
> Isn't it amazing what we will go through to go BIGGER?


Have you picked your mount yet?


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> Have you picked your mount yet?



Yes I did.

It is sitting on the floor waiting.

I purchased it on Ebay with the mind set that I did not know what set I would end up with. Therefore, I bought something that would have worked no matter what I chose. The mount will hold up to an 80" TV weighing up to 250 lbs and extend to 25".

It is an OmniMount ULPC-X


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## B- one

JimShaw said:


> Yes I did.
> 
> It is sitting on the floor waiting.
> 
> I purchased it on Ebay with the mind set that I did not know what set I would end up with. Therefore, I bought something that would have worked no matter what I chose. The mount will hold up to an 80" TV weighing up to 250 lbs and extend to 25".
> 
> It is an OmniMount ULPC-X


That's nice


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## B- one

JimShaw said:


> Yes I did.
> 
> It is sitting on the floor waiting.
> 
> I purchased it on Ebay with the mind set that I did not know what set I would end up with. Therefore, I bought something that would have worked no matter what I chose. The mount will hold up to an 80" TV weighing up to 250 lbs and extend to 25".
> 
> It is an OmniMount ULPC-X


That looks like a beast! I want something like that with our new tv I want to put my center channel on some bookshelf speaker stands and pull the tv right out over the top I think having the center up will be much better than the 12 inches off the floor it is currently.


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> That looks like a beast! I want something like that with our new tv I want to put my center channel on some bookshelf speaker stands and pull the tv right out over the top I think having the center up will be much better than the 12 inches off the floor it is currently.


Doesn't look like you need something as heavy duty as the one I had to get.

Monoprice has some mounts I have heard are pretty good and won't destroy one's bank account

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10828


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## B- one

We have the new set and its amazing. Great step up over our Mitsubishi dlp. Can't believe the great picture.


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> We have the new set and its amazing. Great step up over our Mitsubishi dlp. Can't believe the great picture.


*LOVE IT?*

I just finishing making the wall the mount will go on. Now I have to wait 24 hour for all the glue to dry. Tomorrow, I will mount the TV and turn it on.


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## B- one

Yes we love the new display. Very happy and thankful for Robert and the team at Value Electronics they made it easy. Luckily we bought a stand for our display and now we just need to wait for our shelf to be finished to get the center channel going again.


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## JimShaw

I finally got the F8500 installed. Watched about 2 hours of regular TV and a Blu-ray.

WOW! I am extremely happy. The PQ is sharp and clear, the skin color seems to be perfect, the black is *BLACK *which helps bring out the colors around it and the uniformity of the colors across the panel is amazing and the color across the set has a deep, rich look.

I once was an LED lover. Now, I have been changed to a plasma fanatic.


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## B- one

Netflix looks awesome as well. I was very pleased how much better it looks compared to our dlp tv.


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## polakis

To the new owners. Do you have the faint horizontal band issue just above the middle of the panel that appears in light colour backrounds like white, blue sky etc? Thanks


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## B- one

polakis said:


> To the new owners. Do you have the faint horizontal band issue just above the middle of the panel that appears in light colour backrounds like white, blue sky etc? Thanks


I have yet t see it just see a great picture. Is it possible the issue could be fixed with a proper calibration?


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## JimShaw

polakis said:


> To the new owners. Do you have the faint horizontal band issue just above the middle of the panel that appears in light colour backrounds like white, blue sky etc? Thanks


The only time I saw something is after installing the set on a mount. The set was not turned on and I was lightly cleaning the panel. If I looked hard, close up and far off to the side, there is a slight, something but I have to really be trying to see it.

Other than that, nothing.

Never with the set on.



m


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## dvrw2

B- one said:


> I have yet t see it just see a great picture. Is it possible the issue could be fixed with a proper calibration?


Do you know what firmware version you're running?


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## B- one

dvrw2 said:


> Do you know what firmware version you're running?


1104


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## dvrw2

Thank you!

I thought your plasma come with a new firmware. I'm interested in it but 3D brightness pops bother me. I hope that Samsung solves the same way as resolved in 2D.

Robert, can you give us some hope with this?


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## JimShaw

dvrw2 said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I thought your plasma come with a new firmware. I'm interested in it but 3D brightness pops bother me. I hope that Samsung solves the same way as resolved in 2D.
> 
> Robert, can you give us some hope with this?


About two weeks ago, I received my 64F8500 from Robert. Before sending, he updated to the newest firmware. I don't have any floating black, pops, buzzing, etc.

Regarding pops, Yes, I don't have any but I also don't watch hockey and that seems to be where it happened, panning on ice.


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## dvrw2

Great, Jim!

Do you know what firmware version you're running?


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## JimShaw

[img][/img]


dvrw2 said:


> Great, Jim!
> 
> Do you know what firmware version you're running?



Sorry, I don't.

All I know is it was the latest update and I also think the last


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## Ken Ross

1104 is the latest firmware and with that version you should see no popping whatsoever. 

I too have not noticed floating blacks. On some other forums the issue seems to be raised almost exclusively by non-owners. Owners don't seem to complain about it at all.


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## JimShaw

Ken Ross said:


> 1104 is the latest firmware and with that version you should see no popping whatsoever.
> 
> I too have not noticed floating blacks. On some other forums the issue seems to be raised almost exclusively by non-owners. Owners don't seem to complain about it at all.


Thanks, Ken

I did not know the number. B- one thought it was 1104. I wasn't sure.

Yes, I agree with you. The most complainers were from those that were non-owners.


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## Robert Zohn

For the next three weeks prices are temporarily reduced on the 51", 60" and 64" F8500 PDP series.

-Robert


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## B- one

I should have waited that's a great sale.


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> I should have waited that's a great sale.


In TV sales, no matter when you purchased, if you waited a little longer, it would have been cheaper.




n


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## B- one

JimShaw said:


> In TV sales, no matter when you purchased, if you waited a little longer, it would have been cheaper.
> 
> n


You must admit that's a great sale. That's all I'm saying.


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> You must admit that's a great sale. That's all I'm saying.


You better believe it. If I had not already purchased, I would be calling Robert right now.


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## pitchman

Robert Zohn said:


> For the next three weeks prices are temporarily reduced on the 51", 60" and 64" F8500 PDP series.
> 
> -Robert


Any idea when Samsung will have another temporary price reduction like this? I really want one and am ready to pull the trigger, but have just been sitting back waiting for the next big sale. I hope there is another before the new year...


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## B- one

pitchman said:


> Any idea when Samsung will have another temporary price reduction like this? I really want one and am ready to pull the trigger, but have just been sitting back waiting for the next big sale. I hope there is another before the new year...


I would pm Robert or just call Value Electronics. We got our set from him and used there quality control and break-in service and its been great. Minus the discount a few weeks after purchase but it happens. I signed up for something at Samsung and they are always announcing deals via e-mail. And I do mean always.


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## Tom Riddle

For those of you that had your sets calibrated, was it calibrated with the Black Optimizer on or off? Anyone know how it was calibrated at the VE Flat Panel Shootout?


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## JimShaw

Tom Riddle said:


> For those of you that had your sets calibrated, was it calibrated with the Black Optimizer on or off? Anyone know how it was calibrated at the VE Flat Panel Shootout?


*Ken Miller (a calibrator at the Shootout) calibrated my 64F8500 and I had the same question. Following are my questions and his response by e-mail*
*
I hope this helps*

-------------------------------------------------

Kevin

A quick question.

You calibrated my 64F8500 and I am amazed how beautiful the PQ is and I thank you.

I noticed that the Black Optimizer is off. Should it stay off? Members of a forum say it should be turned on for a darker black but if it was turned on, would that interfere with your calibration of the set?

------------------------------------

Hi Jim,


No that is not right. I definitely cibrsyed it with Black Optimizer set to Dark Room. Are u in input 1? It could be when I copied to the other inputs that its off there. Please let me know. Thx'


Best

Sent from my iPhone 
Kevin Miller

---------------------------------------------------------------


From: Kevin Miller
Date: 8/7/2013 9:56:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Optimizer

Hi Jim,


Set it to Dark Room. Not sure what happened there.


Best

Sent from my iPhone 
Kevin Miller
ISFTV: www.isftv.com
TweakTV: www.tweaktv.com

--------------------------------------------


Kevin

I went in and changed to Dark Room in Movie Mode and that also changed to Dark Room In Cal-Nighi and Day also while watching Blu through HDMI2. Then I went in to watch regular TV and changed to Dark Room and that changed all the Modes to Dark Room also.

That is where everything should be, correct?


Jim


-------Original Message-------

--------------------------------------------------------------

From: Kevin Miller
Date: 8/7/2013 4:12:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Optimizer

Hi Jim,


You should be good to go!


Best

Sent from my iPhone 
Kevin Miller
ISFTV: www.isftv.com
TweakTV: www.tweaktv.com


-----------------------------


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## Tom Riddle

Thanks Jim! That definitely answers my question!


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## JimShaw

Tom Riddle said:


> Thanks Jim! That definitely answers my question!


Glad to help. That's what this forum is all about


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## Tom Riddle

That couldn't be more true. If it weren't for all I've learned on these forums, I would have sharpness set at 100 with a healthy dose of edge enhancement engaged on Dynamic Mode searing my retinas.


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## Tom Riddle

It doesn't appear this page gets much traffic anymore - not sure why since this is the last of the great plasmas. If you have been waiting to purchase a F8500 in anticipation of the H7000, the wait is over. The. H7000 has been scrapped and the F8500 should be purchased soon. I can only imagine that the price will continue to climb.


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## Widamere

When will the 2014 models come out? And, will VE have a shootout again in '14??


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## JimShaw

Widamere said:


> When will the 2014 models come out? And, will VE have a shootout again in '14??


Yes, generally in May and possibly June.

I think it depends on when all the sets can come together.

Last year, if I remember correctly, it was about mid May


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks Jim, you are correct and beat me to the reply. However, this year we're delaying our 2014 evaluation event to include several of the models that are launching later in the summer. No exact date at this moment but it's likely July 12 - 13.

The two late arrivals that we are waiting for is LG's 65" or 77" 4K OLED and Toshiba's 65" 4K full array locally dimmed LED, model 65L9400.

Hopefully we'll get confirmation of these last two displays from Toshiba and LG this coming week so we can lock in our 2014 Shootout event date.

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> Thanks Jim, you are correct and beat me to the reply. However, this year we're delaying our 2014 evaluation event to include several of the models that are launching later in the summer. No exact date at this moment but it's likely July 12 - 13.
> 
> The two late arrivals that we are waiting for is LG's 65" or 77" 4K OLED and Toshiba's 65" 4K full array locally dimmed LED, model 65L9400.
> 
> Hopefully we'll get confirmation of these last two displays from Toshiba and LG this coming week so we can lock in our 2014 Shootout event date.
> 
> -Robert


Robert, thanks the update.

I am looking forward to hearing what you have to say regarding the LG 77"

I actually have it already mapped out on the wall with blue tape and hopping it is hang-able and the height is close to my guess.


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## Widamere

I have the Sharp Elite 60" and am considering getting one of the Sammy's. We have a 55B8000 upstairs, and I still prefer the 'clarity' of that picture.....but the flash light effect just ruins the PQ for me. I am interested in either the plasma 64" 8500 or the 65" F8000 LED


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## Robert Zohn

Jim, me too. This is my personal favorite TV for 2014. 

Widamere, from your short list I would suggest Samsung's F8500 PDP. 

-Robert


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## Widamere

Thank you sir. I do worry, is burn in really that big of an issue? I watch a lot of sports, so the area(s) were the scores and what-not are, will those "burn in" and be an issue when watching movies? Thanks for your time!!

Mike.


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## Robert Zohn

Mike, a good 200 hour break-in will help stabilize the panel. So leaving the TV on for the first 10 days 24/7 with break-in slides is always recommended. You can use the TV during the break-in period and just switch back to the break-in slides without powering the TV off. Some of our clients opt for our q/c, proper break-in and professional calibration.

Here's the HTS break-in thread I created that explains the process and it has the link to the best break-in slides.

Also watching mixed content will help avoid burn-in on the screen.

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Widamere said:


> Thank you sir. I do worry, is burn in really that big of an issue? I watch a lot of sports, so the area(s) were the scores and what-not are, will those "burn in" and be an issue when watching movies? Thanks for your time!!
> 
> Mike.


I can answer that question with authority

Burn in was my BIG worry going plasma because my wife has







program on almost 8 hours a day. I was considering the Samsung's F8000 or the F8500. I went ahead, took a chance and purchased the 64F8500 from Robert and watched the set closely for months.

I have had the set for about nine months now. There has been not one problem with burn-in or IR and my set runs almost 16 hours a day with a ton of stagnate logos on the screen.

I have found no problems at all.


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## Widamere

Very cool!!!! Thank you both for your time!!! I just may OMW to plasma :T


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## JimShaw

Widamere said:


> Very cool!!!! Thank you both for your time!!! I just may OMW to plasma :T


If you decide on the plasma, you might do as I did. I ordered from Robert and then had him break the set in and while doing that, had him watch and listen for dead pixels, strange noise, etc. Then I had Robert calibrate the set.

I don't know where you live but I pay 8% tax in my area. Because I ordered it from Robert, there was no tax. What that did for me was to have Robert send me a TV that was hand picked, broke in and calibrated for about $100 more that if I had purchased the set from my area and paid local tax.

Best $100 I have ever spent


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## B- one

I agree with Jim, great service for the price it just adds peace of mind to the process.


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