# Speaker toe-in



## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm curious as to how everyone else views speaker toe-in. With the recent upgrade of my front L/R speakers I've been experimenting with toe-in. I normally toe them in so that the horns are pointed at the MLP. I've been researching this and it seems speaker and room dependent and consensus is adjust until they pass the ear test. Particularly interested how other Klipsch Reference owners aim the horns.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey! As you know, I'm not a klipsch owner, but there used to be a good rule of thumb. When seated in the LP, you should just barely be able to see the inside panel of the speaker. Also, the way I did mine was with a piece of cardboard leaned on a chair, 2 or 3' (can't remember now) behind the LP and a laser level on my mains, I toed them to hit the same spot(center) on the cardboard. Incidentally both methods in my case work out to about the same angle. It may depend some on how far apart they are, and as always, season to taste. Those two methods are just good starting points. I think its kinda like I say, ask 10 guys how to build a house, you'll get 10 answers. Interested to see how many you get.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Thanks for the reply Willis! I'm sure opinions will vary and the overall consensus will be adjust until it sounds good to you. Let's see what Charlie, Brandon, and Tom say as I know they are Reference "horn" owners.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Oh and non Reference owners are invited to weigh in as well…


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I've got to question how much toe in a lot of people use. It's very dependant of the type of tweeter. Even horn tweeters have very different designs. My EVs use a horn type design and it is recommended to use no toe in at all with them.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lol, I'm waiting for them to chime in too. My old cerwin Vegas had horns, and a pretty wide pattern, but nothing like those 7's. You might be able to go wider without collapsing the center image? Curious to hear from the guys.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> I've got to question how much toe in a lot of people use. It's very dependant of the type of tweeter. Even horn tweeters have very different designs. My EVs use a horn type design and it is recommended to use no toe in at all with them.


 Good point Tony and the no toe-in thought has led me to start the thread. This weekend I'm going to try that and see if I hear a difference.


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

I don't have much toe-in at all, as I find it works better for the other listening positions. I have what I'd call a 1 inch toe-in. As in, if you were to measure the distance of my speakers from the wall you'd find the outside rear corner 1 inch further away from the wall than the inside rear corner.
No horns, silk dome Vifa D27.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yup, the imagining with mine straight on is really good so I simply don't see the need to toe them in. I wonder if the reason they image so well is that they use a 2" super tweeter that can handle 25watts rather than the norm 10watts or less.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

Mine are pointed pretty much right at me. Never really played around with them to much as it sounds good and there heavy to move by yourself at least safely,i need my back, but have been thinking of having the guy from a little shop by me come over and go threw the audio part of our system I have a calibrated display after all why not the rest of the system as our AVR allows for it and I would like to see if it makes any difference.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

nova said:


> I don't have much toe-in at all, as I find it works better for the other listening positions. I have what I'd call a 1 inch toe-in. As in, if you were to measure the distance of my speakers from the wall you'd find the outside rear corner 1 inch further away from the wall than the inside rear corner. No horns, silk dome Vifa D27.


 99% of the time I only have 2 listening positions to worry about. I just need to focus on optimizing for the wife and I and think I'll try straight on. Maybe start there and move them in small increments? I wish I had one of those golden eared audiophiles nearby!


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

B- one said:


> Mine are pointed pretty much right at me. Never really played around with them to much as it sounds good and there heavy to move by yourself at least safely,i need my back, but have been thinking of having the guy from a little shop by me come over and go threw the audio part of our system I have a calibrated display after all why not the rest of the system as our AVR allows for it and I would like to see if it makes any difference.


 Mine are sitting on hardwood floors so slight movements are no big deal. At almost 90 pounds per speaker I wouldn't want to deal with moving them on carpet especially if the spikes were installed. When you say have your audio calibrated what exactly do you mean? Does your AVR not have built in room correction?


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

JBrax said:


> Mine are sitting on hardwood floors so slight movements are no big deal. At almost 90 pounds per speaker I wouldn't want to deal with moving them on carpet especially if the spikes were installed. When you say have your audio calibrated what exactly do you mean? Does your AVR not have built in room correction?


Yeah we're on carpet and spikes here! Built in room correction on our unit is multeqxt,I just "think" he maybe able to do better as he has the equipment to work our AVR as it's designed for custom installers I once again "think" they can do more with his equipment I could be wrong(never happens:gulp and he's a nice guy and won't about it which is nice.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

I would expect the toe in to be pointing at the outside edge of the PLP chair's headrest. Should be the best starting place. Optimizing for your wife's LP will change that however. How far apart are both chairs?


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Tonto said:


> I would expect the toe in to be pointing at the outside edge of the PLP chair's headrest. Should be the best starting place. Optimizing for your wife's LP will change that however. How far apart are both chairs?


 Maybe 3' here's a pic…


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Here's another pic of the room with additional and less important seating positions.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

One last view of my seated position and current speaker placement/toe-in.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

I think I would still treat it as one chair with the outside corner of each headrest.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I am like Nova. I found that just a small amount of toe in works well to give me a wider soundstage. I have large speakers also. Cerwin Vega XLS-215's.


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## gadgtfreek (Oct 13, 2014)

My RF82ii's are about 9 feet apart and 10.2 feet from the MLP. I have a slight toe in and found it to be the best sound. I sit on the right, and the wife is on the left, each speaker is aimed at the inner arm rest basically so they cross behind us, not toed in so far as to aim at the MLP between us.

My goal was the best triangle I could do, but then I found they needed a little toe in. I will be setting up RF7ii's this weekend and will be curious if they require the same.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

tcarcio said:


> I am like Nova. I found that just a small amount of toe in works well to give me a wider soundstage. I have large speakers also. Cerwin Vega XLS-215's.


 You're not kidding about those Cerwin Vegas being large! 54" tall and 130 lbs. those are massive.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

gadgtfreek said:


> My RF82ii's are about 9 feet apart and 10.2 feet from the MLP. I have a slight toe in and found it to be the best sound. I sit on the right, and the wife is on the left, each speaker is aimed at the inner arm rest basically so they cross behind us, not toed in so far as to aim at the MLP between us. My goal was the best triangle I could do, but then I found they needed a little toe in. I will be setting up RF7ii's this weekend and will be curious if they require the same.


 That's pretty much the same distances and setup I currently have. You're going to love the 7's! I start vacation this Wednesday and plan on really fine tuning things. This thread has been helpful to give me an idea what others do in regards to toe-in.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

I've always toed mine in because they'd otherwise fire into some type of furnishing. In the case of my modest HT, there are LP crates in the way. But they block mostly the bass drivers, which have an omni pattern; so I'm not sure how that would affect the sound. Midrange is more directional and those drivers would bounce sound off the top off the crates if pointed with no toe-in. 

So what I mean to say is that I've toed-in out of habit. Time for some experiments! :nerd:


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

JBrax said:


> You're not kidding about those Cerwin Vegas being large! 54" tall and 130 lbs. those are massive.


Yes they are so I don't move them to often....


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## mr1960 (Apr 20, 2015)

I have found that on my little Klipch B10s angle means not a lot. What I mean is what suits your ears that evening.


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## dgmartin (Oct 29, 2011)

The best toe-in is both speaker and room-dependent. It depends on the speaker directivity and its placement in the room with respect to the room boundaries, reflective objects and the listening position(s). 

With regards to the speaker, you would like to sit at the angle (wrt speaker axis) that yields the flattest response, or the one you prefer. There are two ways of listening to the same off-axis angle: aimed straight (inboard side of the cabinet visible) or a strong toe-in (outboards side visible). 

With regards to the room, toe-in can help getting a wider coverage if the speakers are aimed in front of the LP. Toe-in will also help minimizing the early reflections from the side walls - this normally helps with speech intelligibility, imaging etc... but might loose in spaciousness, sound stage width. In you setup you also need to be careful with the flatscreen's reflections, which might limit the achievable toe-in.

As you see this is about tradeoffs and preferences but I hope you find the above helpful.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

dgmartin said:


> The best toe-in is both speaker and room-dependent. It depends on the speaker directivity and its placement in the room with respect to the room boundaries, reflective objects and the listening position(s). With regards to the speaker, you would like to sit at the angle (wrt speaker axis) that yields the flattest response, or the one you prefer. There are two ways of listening to the same off-axis angle: aimed straight (inboard side of the cabinet visible) or a strong toe-in (outboards side visible). With regards to the room, toe-in can help getting a wider coverage if the speakers are aimed in front of the LP. Toe-in will also help minimizing the early reflections from the side walls - this normally helps with speech intelligibility, imaging etc... but might loose in spaciousness, sound stage width. In you setup you also need to be careful with the flatscreen's reflections, which might limit the achievable toe-in. As you see this is about tradeoffs and preferences but I hope you find the above helpful.


 Thank you for the response. That's some good info you've provided.


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## chrisletts (Oct 16, 2014)

_"consensus is adjust until they pass the ear test"_

Exactly so - Manufacturers advice for my KEFs is 'little or no' toe-in. I have found that applies really only to ideal conditions where speakers are equidistant from walls, and in the optimum position. Being a living room as well as listening room such a position is not possible, and after vast amounts of experimentation I actually have them significantly toed-in for best sound.


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## GCG (Aug 22, 2013)

Ear test for me. I play the a good centered two channel source (piano is good). I play and adjust till the center image is well defined, adjust out till it just goes away, and then slowly back again til it 'just' comes back. That usually works.


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## smurphy522 (Sep 21, 2010)

As some have mentioned it likely matters as much of the speaker (tweeter) design as it does the room design (or actual speaker placement in relation to the side/back wall). Having said that I have my L/R mains positioned in a way that they measured the same distances from the side walls and are toed in 1.5" from the back wall parallel plane. I simply decided how much distance I wanted the speakers to be from the back wall and then cut out a cardboard trapezoid 1.5" longer on one side. I have it set aside in the media room to use when I move them out for cleaning or other.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I appreciate all of the good feedback. I'll be rereading this thread come Wednesday night.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

WHAT! you did not memorize every word we said? LOL


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> WHAT! you did not memorize every word we said? LOL


 Umm…not yet but still studying.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

IMO of course, my Klipsch horns have to be pointed straight into the room or toed in no more than 10degrees from straight. For me, the titanium tweeters seem to be a touch hot when toed in more than the above recommendation YMMV
Straight ahead they sound good with a wide soundstage and some pretty good depth.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Savjac said:


> IMO of course, my Klipsch horns have to be pointed straight into the room or toed in no more than 10degrees from straight. For me, the titanium tweeters seem to be a touch hot when toed in more than the above recommendation YMMV Straight ahead they sound good with a wide soundstage and some pretty good depth.


 I plan on trying straight ahead and toeing in incrementally to find the sweet spot. Big night tomorrow!


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