# TRIO12 Butt Kicker Is time, is now!



## mwmkravchenko

So after a few weeks hiatus and many an attempted fold and shagrin or three and guess what. I have worked out a fold for the beast. 

So what we have is this. A box. Really!

Ok I'll play nice. A box that is 23" deep and 14" wide. And 84 inches tall. Or look at it this way. 84 inches wide and 23 inches tall by 14 inches deep. Oh yes it is not to small. But this is what I have simulated to death.

So this is the quick and dirty version of the drawing. I know it is not to legible but that is how the ball bounces it will be changed a bit when I actually get to do the testing. Usually a reflector or two will help smooth out some of the ripples. 

The simulated SPL is for 1 watt. This horn uses one driver. One TRIO12. Si this is not to bad for a corner loaded horn. It free space you will get closer to 99 db/ watt. Still not shabby. So give a week or so and I'll have this built up and then we shall see.

Mark


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## Mike P.

Where does the sub mount?


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## mwmkravchenko

How come you always ask good questions?

Behold my ignorance in not drawing in a woofer! But now you have a slightly deformed woofer right where it should be. So about that!

Mark


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## Mike P.

I kinda figured that but I just had to ask to make sure.


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## knobert

any progress???


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## mwmkravchenko

Something called making a living is getting in the way once again.

Now I have deadline. On June 19th a bunch of us in Ottawa are getting together to do a DIY audio show. So I have to have a show stiopper! I also need to make the tower of power. At least I have the surrounds already made.

I have a huge wall unit to make for a gentleman and then I can fit in the rest of the work on this one. I have it all laid out as I have posted. I have it drawn to scale on the proper sized pieces of OSB and I have the horn path pieces cut to width but not all to length. Making money comes first. The fun comes second. 


Mark


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## knobert

ok just checking........... keep us updated on your meet and greet


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## mwmkravchenko

I will keep you updated.

Somethings will be happening sooner than later.

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

All cut out!

Should be assembled tomorrow.

Testing will be most interesting.

Has been highly modified from the original speca and yes it is bigger. But Real corner loading will get you 100db/ watt at 20hz. 50 watts will get you 125 db. So you get what you build. Bigger is better sometimes.

The size is....

Big! 16.5" x 32" x 92"

It will be at the DIY Ottawa meet on Saturday the 19th of June. Check out the posting if you want to see it hear it.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/ever...mbers-around-ottawa-canada-4.html#post2213190

I'll post build pics of the prototype ASAP

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

Well there is a new Hornresp version. The current design checks out very very well. I ran an impulse test in the simulation and almost fell off of my chair. So I ran it again and at higher power levels. A sub that can do this will be indeed a butt kicker. Almost no ringing. Better impulse response than a sealed cabinet. THat is due to a couple of things. My quest at the beginning was for a certain size. I kept trading off size for ultimate performance. THen it hit me. A box this size is not going to be for everyone. This is a tour de force subwoofer. One that should be used to greatest effect. So some tweeking and You get a box that is still managable yyou can get it into and out of a home without removing doors and windows. But you get bass that blows your socks off. Without killowatt amps and such. THis box with 250 real watts will be possitivly miond blowing. at 20hz I simulate 3% efficiency loaded into 1Pi space which I consider the closest thing to a real life corner loading. THe design faithfully follows the contour of the simulation. The fold is almost zero waste. I have 14 liters or 1/2 cubic foot of wasted space. No easy feat. I folded it four times yesterday afternoon.

So breakfast and off to the shop. Gotta listento this monster. TO bad PL Premium takes a day to dry! THe odd screw will help this out a bit. May just maybe I will be able to listen in the shop this evening.

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

So some work and I give you guys some pictures.

I will be giving it a whirl in the shop tonight. :hsd:

Mark


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## Mike P.

Looking forward to the SPL numbers!


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## knobert

Sweet can't wait for the inital testing!!


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## mwmkravchenko

Well gents she is all buttoned up.

5 tubes of PL Premium and four sheets of OSB later and I have a bouncing baby subwoofer. I ran out of adhesive twice! But by tomorrow morning it will be solid like rock. And I will finally get to listen to the beast. I hates waiting! :hissyfit:

Mark

http://s407.photobucket.com/albums/pp160/mwmkravchenko/Horn Subwoofer/


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## mwmkravchenko

A bit oh brain damage on my part.

The input screen I posted had a RCF driver pasted in place of the TRIO12. There is slight ripple on the low end with the TRIO 12 in comparison. But otherwise same box. Actually plays down to 18 hz in this simulation to.

Double checked it in AkaBak. And as always I am finding that Hornresp is working with a finer tooth comb than AkaBak. But they are in agreement on the fundamentals.

Have to track down an errant little glue block that I thought I had firmly in place. I should learn not to try to use small spacers in these boxes! The air compression that is capable from the TRIO 12 is amazing. Really packs a whallop.

So out come the chain saw and I will replace the block with a through brace like i did all the other areas. 

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

A bit oh knocking about and I fix the knocking about. Not enough bracing at the first section of the throat. So saw off the side and make some bracing. 

Any body can make a mistake. But fixing it. That's where the men are seperated from the boys.

I put in three single spot braces thinking that they would be enough. Well I was wrong. 

When I'm done it will be stiff enough. THe braces are gluing up over night and will be ready for tomorrow evening.

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

Fixed!

Hows that for stiff?

Should have done the throat like this in the first place. Just goes to show yah.

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

I'm guessing that you guys are waiting for measurements. Me to! 

But not tonight. As for tomorrow this box is going to be at the Ottawa DIY Audio show. Be there or be square!

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

Ok I admit it I couldn't wait.

Preliminary testing of the box in a bad place in the shop. As you see in the picture it is 3 feet off of the floor. It is six feet and four feet respectively from other walls. So I call this 1 and a half Pi. I'm getting 92 to 94 db/watt. Preety good when you consider the driver base line is 85.6 db/watt. So I'm getting proper loading of the horn and driver. Still grinning!

Mark


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## Mike P.

Sounds good so far. Have fun at the audio meet.


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## mwmkravchenko

A report from the DIY Ottawa event:

Well after a setup and tweak of the signal to the amp for the sub we were able to listen to quite a bit of different music. Some test signals provided by a gent who works for Paradigm and designs subwoofers and amps was demonstrating his Line source speakers. THe signals were reproduced with great authority and delineation inthe different sounds. They did not all meld together to form the typical subwoofer mush of low end oomph. They were clearly discernable as different very low tones. I had a quick chat with him and asked his opinion on how the sub performed. His comments were more dynamic and punchy than anything he was working on. 

Now bear in mind that we were driving the sub with a 30 watt amplifier!

We played a great deal of jazz and Pink Floyd. The sub works when called upon but is not omnipresent as so many subs are. If there is bass it roars to life otherwise it is quiet.

I kept some of the best tracks for the later part of the day.

I review classical music for a website so I have quite a large carefully groomed collection of the stuff.

So I played the second movement from Saint Saens third symphony. The recording is with Edo de Wart and Jean Guillou. Probably the best most dynamic available. When the opening of the second piece comes there are soft strings and then the organ comes in quietly but three octaves lower than anything in the orchestra. It literally lifted the room with waves of clean clear 32 foot pitched soft rumble. Truly an awesome effect. I have done this before with 5 pcs of 15" woofers and 400 watts. But this was cleaner and clearer with one 12 and 30 watts. My did I get a bunch of smiles! Worth all the effort. I'm out with my son's this afternoon and evening but I promise to do some proper testing this coming week. I already know how low it goes. It meets and beat 18hz. Depending on the room and location I can get a clean 16hz out of it. Now I'm interested in the maximum SPL and the wattage needed to get there.

I post a pic of the output on the RTA from the Berhriger * DEQ2496 Ultracurve Pro Digital EQ/RTA. *

The increments on the RTA at this level were 3db at the highest peak off of flat. That's down to 20 hz. The microphone was the ECM 8000. Measured about 4 meters from the mouth of the sub. I know that low end measurement is tmpermental in rooms and has to be properly averaged to be taken as gospel truth. This was single location one third of the way into a 30 foot long by 16 foot wide room. But it serves as a baseline for you guys to look at at any rate. Listening impressions from a seasoned low end listener like me put the response as spot on. I could count the beast at the low C on the Saint Saen's piece. I have run that through a RTA many times and know that at a couple of points the open stop that is used is a pretty clean sine wave at 16.8 hz. Sweet to say the least. So I amongst a zillion things to do this week I will try to sneek in some measurement time on the sub.


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## mwmkravchenko

Something has ocurred to me about the size of box and your significant other.

If she don't like you bringing in this box you may be in big trouble.

You see she has a coffin size enclosure to begin with!

My advice bring it in one piece at a time and build it up slowly. Pick days she out and about. Then hide it behind a wall. You may need a stock pile of food and water. But believe me you will be in bass heaven!

Mark


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## Creative Sound

Hi,

I have been following this with interest for some time and only wish I was closer to hear this "monster". Maybe I can find someone locally to build one for me.

Congratulations and Thanks Mark for your work.

I will be adding an item on the website to sell the driver, plans, etc. as a kit shortly. If someone can't wait let me know and I'll see what can be done.

Bob


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## mwmkravchenko

Well I'm guessing everyone is waiting for measurements. Me to!
It has rained everyday this week as well as this weekend. It is even raining today. 

So when the grass dries up I will measure the beast.
Ihave been studying Illka's methods of sub testing. I will use much of what he sugests. The only difference will be the distance of a number of tests due to the horn mouth.

I'll detail the methods and results.

Sorry for the wait but can't fight the weather.

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

Guess what it didn't rain to much today.

Maybe tomorrow I can do something or the other.

I contemplated doing indoor SPL but there are just to many things to break inside a house at these volumes. Maybe some elctrical testing and such. I have to work the weekend to so this is not going to be to easy.

Things you have to do to have some fun eh!

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

Well the weekend is chock full of work. No time to do anything on the speaker. But the good news it is not raining yet. I have a plan. This week I'm actually starting a new job that actually has start and stop times. No more working for yours truly. I'll be home at 5:45 every night. A nice change in pace. I can take the sub and measure rain or shine under my sun room. I will have to adjust the SPL figure accordingly but it will still work. And that location is dry all the time. THe sun room is off of the second story and there is a patio underneath it at ground level.

Should have thought of it a while ago. It is a 1 pi space so the numbers will have to be jimmied to show corner loading ( .5 Pi space ). I will also have a bit more fun doing a true summation of the horns output off of the mouth . BUt I do have about 3 meters to play with. So it will be decent.

Tom Danley measures at 10 meters and 100 watts to get a good feel for what a horn will do. His applications are for more or less 4 Pi loadings in arenas and stadiums. Any home use of this sub will be at 1 Pi ( wall, floor, ceiling ) or .5 Pi ( wall, floor, ceiling, corner junction ) So we will still have reliable specs to play with.

Mark


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## Mike P.

Looking forward to the measurements.


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## mdrake

This is Awesome!! I can not wait to hear your impressions! :T 

Matt


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## mwmkravchenko

Hey Matt

I checked out your pics.

Wow!

You could make use of this puppy for sure. That is if you want to replace the monsters you already have. 

Impressions are easy. I spent a whole day listening to this sub. 

In a nut shell it acts bottomless. The box is very efficient when in a corner. Almost 100 db/watt. So if you have a decent size amp you can easily hit peaks of 120 db at 20 hz with 100 watts. That is oh so much fun. Most subs have areas where they start to run out of steam. They get congested sounding or muddy. Like stirring up the mud in a clear stream. You could see the bottom before but now it all gone. Not this sub. The only drawback it has is that if you drive it loud and proud below what it is designed for you can run into over excursion problems. But tha is also true of any vented box system to. The good thing is that you can use this sub clean and clear down to 16hz and then some. The ultimate low end I will have to mesure. I know from some of the material I listened to that the sub can do a very clean and loud 16.8 hz. 

The other thing I always notice in using horn subs is that they are tunefull. They carry a tune in the low end that you can follow all the way down. There is the definite wall of sound. But there is tecture and delineation to the bass that I never seem to get with anything else. You can follow a string bass easily in Jazz or the pedals being played on a pipe organ. They are not a big mush that sounds low and impressive. They are low and impressive. And there is punch and bite to the music. That I like alot. 

When I played in an orchestra I played french horn. So most of the time I was in the back row very close to the percussion. The wham of a concert bass drum is pretty intense when your that close. Pop in a good Telarc symphonic spectacular CD and you will know what I mean. With the horn loaded sub it is as close to being there as I have ever experienced.

The only caveat I have is this. There are a whole bunch of recordings out there that have what I call manufactured bass. Done in the studio for pop music. Some of it is astonishing. Enya has some freaky stuff way down low on some of her recordings. But by and large most of it sounds pretty obvious as higher harmonics of a low note that just is not there. As with all components in a sound system. The better you get the more ruthless the system becomes. It's kind of like getting to know your recordings all over again. You will find some surprises.


Mark


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## Mike P.

It would be nice to find out what the in room SPL numbers are for 20 hz and below for the HT crowd.


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## mwmkravchenko

Have to work three more evenings and I will be free to measure what ever you guys want. Now I'm vegetating. I came in 30 minutes ago from working all day. I needs some sleep!

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

I have been thinking about posting this little blurb. It has been posted on diyaudio but it would also be of great use here. Hope you guys find it interesting.

Measurements will happen after tomorrow. I will be delivering the wall unit that has been taking up all my time that I have had to spare. Footloose and fancy free.


The distortion in most subs is due to driver nonliterary pushing them so hard that they are no longer in control of the motor structure design. The ways to get around that are rather simple. Use more drivers. But to have any appreciable difference we have to remember that to drop an octave in bass we need four times the volume of air moved to keep the SPL equal. You need quite a few woofers. The second solution is to provide a better acoustical match between the driver and the air in the room. This is the method that is being discussed in this thread. I don't recall seeing a figure of actual box gain over raw data from Patrick's posts. But in the horn I'm fooling with the gain is between 8 and 10 db over the raw driver. That is an increase of efficiency of just over and around four times that of a driver on it's own mounted in a conventional enclosure. So the driver in a horn has to move one quarter the amount of air to get the same sound pressure level of that same driver in a vented enclosure. 

Gain? Well the distortion is cut down dramatically. More than the 1/4 you would think. If you use a driver that has a very linear motor structure like the XBL type in the TRIO12 you are getting great control of the driver over a far longer stroke. A stable BL is very important in keeping all forms of distortion low. The BL is the number of turns of wire in the voice coil that are saturated by the magnet and motor structure. It is the best measurement of how in control the cone remains at any position. It is also a curve that most manufacturers will not provide. 

No matter how much power you throw at a driver it is only a repulsive force from the existing motor structure. So the inherent linearity of the driver itself is very important. The other very interesting thing about drivers and actual speaker boxes is that the more power we push into the driver the more they heat up. Then the voice coil parameters change drastically. If we can create an enclosure where the driver is better coupled to the room we are in the required power is greatly diminished and the resulting sound from the driver/enclosure system is cleaner. There is no warmed up voice coil that is now two to three tikes the resistance of one at room temperature. The amplifier does not have to try and push gobs of power into a voice coil that is literally compressing the power instead of tracking it. Nope we can get a driver that will track the music signal and produce what we are after. The idea that we can take a driver and push hundreds of watts into it and get a louder response is more a myth than reality.

Here is the power versus SPL progression

Base line 90 db one watt.

1-2-4-8-16-32-64-128-256-512-1024-2048 watts 

90-93-96-99-102-105-108-111-114-117-120 -123 in db 

These are all increments which increase the sound level by 3 db. 

This is a power output progression showing the power required to raise a signal 33 db. So from about 90db to about 120 db. 

There are no drivers that can sustain this amount of power input. Not even pr sound drivers. Those with 4 and even 6 inch voice coils can take a steady 1000 watts and peaks of 1500 to 1800 watts. So the usual answer when you want to get louder is to use more drivers. Every doubling of drivers will take you back a notch in power requirement. So 2 drivers could produce 123 db with 1024 watts. 4 drivers 512 watts. Etc.

The greatest magic in getting things louder happens below 128 watts. Between 128 watts and 2048 watts there is a 12 db rise in sound pressure level. A little over twice as loud acoustically. 
From 1 to 128 watts there is a 21 db increase from a 1 watt level in sound pressure.

Now lets examine the same requirement in getting this loud with the horn subwoofer.
If your bass line power is say 96 db then you get this funky thing happening

96-99-102-105-108-111-114-117-120- 123 in db
1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 - 32 - 64 - 128 - 256 in watts to get to that level of db.

You get very loud with not so much power when you drive a woofer in a horn. The not so much power enables greater ability to generate peaks without there being compression electrically in the driver itself or mechanically from there being no more stroke for the cone.

Trade off?

Big box. The one in the picture is the 23 foot horn it is 16.5 " x 32" x 92". Only addicts may apply! But once you hear one of these brutes all other sub-woofers sound.....neutered is the best term.

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

I just thought I would tease you guys with what has been taking up the precious measuring time. I work as a cabinet maker to make a living. It pays the bills in between the fun jobs like making loudspeakers. 

This unit is 7 feet high by 2 feet deep by 14 foot 6 inches long.

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

Well after working like a madman this past couple of days I'm happy to report that the dirty deed is done. I have a happy client and now after resting for a couple of evenings I will do the measurements. THis weekend for sure.

Mark


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## Henkjan

another impressive sub Mark :T and from what I read on the meeting thread, it performs as expected 



mwmkravchenko said:


> I'll post build pics of the prototype


and maybe a plan?


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## mwmkravchenko

Hi Henkjan

Thanks for the compliments.

Yes this sub really does kick some butt. As for the plans Bob will be the one handleing this.

I have to get some measurements up on the forum so the folks can see for themselves.

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

Well I finally got the time to go and get the sub. Adam came over and helped me get it out of the living room and we loaded it on the tractor. Yep that's me in the drivers seat. The evil grin gives it away. The box is about 200 lbs so not an easy carry. especially to the back yard. So the tractor is just the ticket. I'm setting things up as I type so should have some preliminary measurements soon.

The setting is about 1Pi. It is along a wall there is a ceiling over part of the horn mouth but not at any length. So it is effectively a 1 Pi acoustical environment. I will post all closest boundary measurements so that they can be correlated to some of the response info. If you want to equate what I will be measuring to a room placement. you can strap on 6 db right off the top. And if you have a truly reflective corner as in concrete basement you can add 12 db in theory about 10 db in real life as there are always some losses from ideal.

Now to hook up some wires and setup a microphone.

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

Allright here is a semi 4Pi measurement of this horn. I cannot do a true ground plane as it is really wet and I had to cut the grass before it started raining. Now I really have to cut the grass. Talk about possible comb filtering!


So I present the impedance plot which is a bit different than Hornresp. But still has the peaks at the right places. Me thinks there is a bit of a leak someplace on the horn as there should be the highest peak at 18hz as this is the Fs of this horn. The horn sat in a shed outside for about a month and things tend to dry out and do wierd things. I'll check it out a bit more this week.

The SPL graphs corelate pretty well with the simulations though.

So all in all even sitting inside as I am measureing a sub that is outside it still quite an experience. Still kicks some serious butt.

Note that there is no hocus pokus on the SPL graphs. I could use smoothing to make them look wonderfull. But the raw data is the stuff that is most useful. The one third octave is there to yank your chains! Marketing department types need not apply!

The ripple up around 80 hz is problematic only if you are not using this box as a subwoofer. If you are using it as a subwoofer this will be taken care of by a wonderfull thing called a crossover! Plus it is not that bad when you are listeing to it. It is a measurement artifact. Mic position should be on the ground and the peak would be much smaller.

Anyway. I present a box that sounds awesome and actually measures awesome.

1 watt SPL is still 94 db in a 1Pi space. So not all that bad. Not perfect horn loading but still 8 db of gain over the raw driver.

Put this into a real room and the low end will firm up even more. I'm pretty sure you guys know that just that it is not always stated.

Compare the measurements done outside to the RTA we did at the DIY Ottawa show. THen you can see what it will do when loaded into a corner in a large room. Those little dots are at 3 db intervals. So more or less flat +/- 3db at any rate. Remember that is in room. THe measurements are outside. Not a good environment for bass! But still good measurements.

Happy I is!

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

Wel just great I blew the fuses on the power amp on a short. Now just as I was going to run the sub through it's paces with ARTA. Well I'll see if I can get some fuses for tomorrow. 

So how come no comments????

Godd or bad I don't mind. Any sugestions to change or perform another measurement?

Mark


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## Mike P.

> Put this into a real room and the low end will firm up even more.


If you get a chance it would be nice to see what the low end would do in room with 200 watts.


​


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## mwmkravchenko

Hi Mike

No can do in my house. The room closest to the patio doors on the back are the bedrooms. THe house is a Bi-level with a 4 foot basement. I have tried this before and there is way to much shaking rattling and rolling to go that loud.

I did the same type of tests with the UHHORN2 and I had to have someone brace the bedroom door and it still vibrated and shook like a leaf in the wind. That sub pooped at32hz. This one poops at 16!

So what I can do is do true ground plane on the sub and we can strap on the requisite dbs. That is about the only way. I have tried in the shop and the garage. THe doors shake so violently that I cannot get a useable figure for the SPL. I'm not quite sure which is louder the sub or the metal shaking!

You builds the beast then you tries to tame it!

Yes it works but it is hard to measure.

Keep in mind the posted RTA is real in room response. And it was a large room. That is about the best I can do for now untill I can post a ground plane measurement.

Mark


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