# I need a little Audio Help....



## mikef (Jan 10, 2012)

Here is my thread about my set up..... I think I am leaning towards the Epson 8350 projector.... Now I need Audio Help. I want an easy to use basic entry level set up. I read here and think the Onkyo 609 or 709 might be good for me.... I am going to hook up a HD Direct TV Receiver, Blu Ray player and probably and Xbox 360.... Thats it. Nothing fancy. I am going to have the installation done by a professional.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-projectors/53757-newbie-forum.html

There is a rough drawing of my room on page 3.....

What do you guys think and recomend? I am new to this so be easy on me. I am looking for a basic 5.1 surround sound sytem I think....


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## ru4au (Dec 7, 2011)

What are the speakers? How much are you wanting to spend on the reciever? The Epson looks really nice great reviews I have not seen one but I was really considering buying one (just wasnt in my budget) it seems to be a very solid unit.


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## mikef (Jan 10, 2012)

I havent got to the speakers yet..... Hopeing to get some input here.

As far as budget.... I only want to spend what I have to. There really isnt a budget. But I dont want anything crazy. I just want an entry level easy to operate system. I am guessing about $2k for the audio portion.


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## ru4au (Dec 7, 2011)

Speakers:
http://www.svsound.com/systems/prod...ypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=25&category_id=3

or 

3 of these 

http://emotiva.com/erm62.shtm

1 pair of these

http://emotiva.com/erd1.shtm


subwoofer

http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/empire.html


Receiver

http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...Channel-3-D-Ready-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

For your needs the 709 would probably do all you need....I still like the 809 I think its around $649

both speaker systems should sound outstanding


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## ru4au (Dec 7, 2011)

Thats $2050 for the emotiva or $2250 for the SVS with the 709 for both


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

http://www.amazon.com/Energy-CF-30-Floorstanding-Tower-Speaker/dp/B001SAJ1VA 

A pair of those for the fronts

Something low cost for the surrounds. 

and an SVS sub. For 2k you could get a really nice sub.


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## ru4au (Dec 7, 2011)

with the $200 promo code and free shipping

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882780078

this seems like a very nice deal $300 to your door


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

mikef said:


> What do you guys think and recomend? I am new to this so be easy on me. I am looking for a basic 5.1 surround sound sytem I think....


Hey!

I recommend starting with a quality receiver. Perhaps the Marantz SR6005?!
Next I recommend two to four 12" vented subwoofers for an even frequency response. Perhaps two Rythmik FV12s! 
Next you will want a pair of quality stereo mains to anchor everything. Maybe the Infinity Primus P363 if the budget's smaller, or step up to something really good like the KEF Q900s if the budget's a bit bigger!
It will be your choice whether to add a matching center or not. Don't feel locked into buying a center if it doesn't fit your budget - a phantom center can work pretty well too!
Finally, don't spend a world on surround speakers; but getting four instead of two isn't a bad idea because in my experience it gives better envelopment.


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## mikef (Jan 10, 2012)

This is what my installation guy recomended.... What do you guys think?

Denon AVR-1912 7.1 Channel A/V Home Theater Receiver = $550.00
Klipsh CDT-3650-C Pivoting In-Ceiling Home Theater Speaker = $900.00
Klipsh R-1800-C In Ceiling Home Theater Speaker = $400.00


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## mikef (Jan 10, 2012)

This is the new proposal from my installation guy. He forgot a subwoofer on the first proposal.... Is this a decent entry level set up? Which is the better set up? Thank You.

Dennon AVR-1712 = $ 400.00 (7.1 Ch. 90 Watts per Channel Receiver)
Epsidoe ES-300-IW-6 = $ 1,225.00 (6" in Wall Speaker System)
Epsisode C3-SUB-IW-BLK = $ 350.00 (10" Powered 150 watt Sub Woofer)


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

mikef said:


> This is the new proposal from my installation guy. He forgot a subwoofer on the first proposal.... Is this a decent entry level set up? Which is the better set up? Thank You.
> 
> Dennon AVR-1712 = $ 400.00 (7.1 Ch. 90 Watts per Channel Receiver)
> Epsidoe ES-300-IW-6 = $ 1,225.00 (6" in Wall Speaker System)
> Epsisode C3-SUB-IW-BLK = $ 350.00 (10" Powered 150 watt Sub Woofer)


I think his subwoofer suggestion says it all, your room is fairly large and that sub is probably not going to cut it. The _only_ reference I could find to how low the EPISODE - C3 10" sub will go indicates only 35 Hz, no reviews at all. Good subs make or break a surround sound system, second only to maybe speakers when it comes to impact and performance. Since you have a somewhat open budget, and a good sub will not be any more complicated to use than a weak sub, I would step your budget up to $500 and get a sub that will perform down to 20Hz. See posts above for some better options. Also, going in-wall speakers are not the best performance, especially for the money you are spending, do you have to go with in-wall speakers or will your room allow for more traditional speakers? Hopefully your installer is not rushing you and you are willing to take your time and look at all your budget has to offer, IMO his equipment suggestions arent doing you any favors thus far.


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## ru4au (Dec 7, 2011)

I agree with TypeA there are a ton of choices out there that you could use that would probably give you better sound and response and your sub response is critical.... If he is like most people with a business your installer is going to push you to a product that he sells...Not that he is not an honest or a nice guy but he is in business to make money and the speakers he is selling you I am sure he will be making a profit on. Take your time research your product listen to all the people offering information including the installer and then make your most educated decision. I personally like conventional speakers vs in wall speakers but everyone has personal preferences.


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## ru4au (Dec 7, 2011)

As an example:

5 of these
http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...ACOUSTICS-HSi-275-6.5-LCR-Speaker-Each/1.html

1 of these
http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...Channel-3-D-Ready-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

and you essentually have the same system for $600 and you have a ton of money for a sub....You can spend $750 on a sub and still come in way under his budget....now I'm not saying this is what I would buy....personally I would opt for a more high end receiver and conventional speakers not in wall....but this was just to give you a comparison of whats out there


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## ru4au (Dec 7, 2011)

This is a very nice system 

http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...Channel-3-D-Ready-Network-A/V-Receiver/1.html

$319 shipped

3 of these

http://emotiva.com/erm62.shtm

$600

1 pair of these

http://emotiva.com/erd1.shtm

$249

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk4.html

$659

This comes out to $1827 and should sound absolutly outstanding

Coming from a car stereo background I cannont see how a speaker without an enclosure can sound anywhere near as good or have the response of one that does....the enclosure a speaker is in is just as important as the speaker that goes into it 

Good luck to you and Happy Hunting


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

mikef said:


> This is the new proposal from my installation guy. He forgot a subwoofer on the first proposal.... Is this a decent entry level set up? Which is the better set up? Thank You.
> 
> Dennon AVR-1712 = $ 400.00 (7.1 Ch. 90 Watts per Channel Receiver)
> Epsidoe ES-300-IW-6 = $ 1,225.00 (6" in Wall Speaker System)
> Epsisode C3-SUB-IW-BLK = $ 350.00 (10" Powered 150 watt Sub Woofer)


I have never heard Episode speakers. If online-type suggestions aren't in the picture for you, then I recommend listening to them carefully and deciding for yourself whether they're speakers you can live with. 

take a notepad, 

- When "s" and "sh" sounds are made, do they sound exaggerated ie "sssssshh", or do they decay immediately without distracting you?
- when a person speakers aggressively, does it still sound smooth/natural or do you want to cringe?? Do you find yourself searching for the remote to turn volume down?
- when people whisper, is dialogue intelligible or do you find yourself searching for the remote to turn it up
- when there's a lot of stuff going on at the same time, do they keep their composure or would you rather go back to recordings with very little going on???
- when you listen to music, do you ever feel like the speaker is a distraction? Throw on some brass and see if it sounds natural, subdued, or overbearing. Speakers that can do french horns well, can do much else well.
- when there's bass, does it seem artificial and "speakery"? Or is it balanced and again, natural?
- do you ever feel you're hearing the tweeter distinctly from the midbass? 
- is the audition room representative of the final listening room, or is it heavily treated? Does the sound change negatively if the treatments are removed?
- when listening to instruments you like to listen to, does it sound like a real instrument, or does an aspect of the speaker take over trying to sell itself? 
- when you turn the volume up to as loud as you would choose to listen at your distance, are the speakers crying uncle or does it feel like you could even turn it up more???
- is the subwoofer drawing attention to itself? Because it should not, ever, do so. If so, it may be a setup error or it may be something else.
- when you move around to a different seat, do you notice the bass character changing? Are you sure one sub is enough?
- does the sub seem to bow out of the picture when you turn the volume up to the loudest you would listen? Or is the sub able to keep up? Do the mains keep up? 
- Bring a movie with lots of low bass content. Do you feel it or is just some boring rumble? Is a 10" driver really enough for your room?
- at the end of it all, put your hand on the receiver. Is it warm? Is this something you feel comfortable with?

And you ought to do this not only with the speakers in YOUR budget, but speakers WELL OUTSIDE your budget. Audition everything the dealer has to offer. If the lesser speakers commit too many sins of commission, look elsewhere. If the lesser speakers are more similar than not to the higher end stuff, and the higher end stuff is something you could live with, then put some serious thought into it! Just test driving a Mercedes shouldn't scare you away from a Volkswagen, but it should give you a better perspective on what positives you would expect out of even that mid-tier car.

Good luck!!


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## mikef (Jan 10, 2012)

Wow.... Thank you for all of the help. I really apreciate it.

I have found a new company to do my work. They were suggested by a member here on the forum. I spoke to him yesterday and he seemed much more knowledgeable. He agreed with most of what is said here. He said that sub was not good enough. He is putting me together a peoposal and once I receive it I will post what he wants to do and get some feedback from you guys.

Thanks again.


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## mikef (Jan 10, 2012)

Oh yeah.... I do not want in wall speakers. This guy said NOT to go with the in wall speakers. He said go free standing. They are much much better....


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## mikef (Jan 10, 2012)

Here is a copy of the new proposal. I went to his place and got to see the exact set up in action. Not the exact audio. It looked great. I was impressed. I am new to this but I was not expecting that good of a picture with the lights on. What do you guys think? I think the proposal is good. The price seems fair. Any thoughts?


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## ru4au (Dec 7, 2011)

Things that stick out to me:
$1600 screen
$250 hdmi cable
no true subwoofer
I believe my system I quoted earlier in this thread smokes what he quoted you and it comes in about $700 less
Buy the equipment yourself let him run the wire...you will be much happier...buy a true subwoofer


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

mikef,
Have you said anything to the installer that might make him think that you're not interested in an outboard true subwoofer. Surely the recommended speakers will give good bass but there is a huge difference between having just good bass and having a true subwoofer experience with movies. There is a bit of work involved with setting up an outboard sub to get it integrated properly with the system, but to most of us here it is well worth it. Maybe you just don't care about it and that is fine.
If you are not sure of the difference and think you might be interested, you should try to demo the recommended speakers with and without an outboard true subwoofer.


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## mikef (Jan 10, 2012)

No I havent said anything to him...... 

In his first demo he had 2 - 12" subwoofers. The speakers he is suggesting to me only have 1 - 8" subwoofer each (2 total). I asked him about it and he said it would be fine and a seperate subwoofer is not necessary with this speaker set up. 

In the 2nd demo he didnt have a subwoofer. I couldnt tell the difference between the 2 set ups as far as sound..... My main thing is I wanted clear crisp voices. Currently I have a low dollar out of box home theater set I bgot at Best Buy. It is in my living room. It has plenty of deep bass but most of the time I have a hard time making out what they are saying..... I told him I dont want that.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Quite frankly, there's no excuse for a $7500 HT to not have a pair of 12" vented or 15" sealed subwoofers.

Speech intelligibility is most certainly important, but subwoofers will not impede on this. 

For starters I'd at least be looking at two to four of these:

http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/ported-box/pb12-plus

Next I would either

A) Get a matching tower as a center and put it behind an acoustically transparent screen
B) Save money and not get a center

Now you're spending $1600 on a screen. I'm no screen expert, but I'm hoping it's acoustically transparent as I stated above. Because you can get an AT screen near that price range IE from SeymourAV.

So I'd honestly imagine an ordinary screen to cost significantly less. And if getting an AT screen, there's no excuse for a horizontal center speaker, which is a compromised design. Strictly from an audio perspective, the center channel is the "make it or break it" speaker, and if you start with a compromise, then the whole system could be a compromise.

Also, I would spend a good deal less on surrounds. $600 on two surrounds to match $1000 on L/R mains just doesn't seem right to me. I spent $400 on four quality surrounds to match very similar tier mains and couldn't be happier.

The "8" subs" is just marketing ploy to make people think they're getting "two in one"; when there's plenty of excellent speakers with 8" woofers that dig deep, and they sound more coherent overall. A true subwoofer should cover the range from below 20hz to 100hz without a hint of distortion no matter how loud you choose to listen in your space. An 8" sub will neither reach this deep, nor cover this range without distorting the signal even at "everyday" levels.

As far as receivers go, I would recommend stepping up to something over $1000 MSRP (don't pay MSRP of course). The $600 MSRP receiver is likely to make some concessions in its audio circuitry for the same of marketable features.

$250 on any HDMI cable is absolutely unacceptable. That's about $240 more than you should realistically be paying. 

Overall, if you're paying almost $1000 on labour, you really _should_ be more frugal elsewhere. That $1500 projector for example, I saw on Amazon for $1350 with free shipping. Again though, i'm not up on the video portion of things. I'm just saying, that every dollar saved is a dollar spent elsewhere. If the installer insists on charging you more than you would pay on amazon, while still charging hefty labor costs, well, you need to communicate with them that you feel you're essentially paying $150 more on labor than the stated price.

I suspect the audio portion of my 7.1 system, which I paid about $3200 on total, would vastly outperform this $2400 5.0 system. Admittedly I set everything up manually, so I understand how much of a hassle the labor can be. But in retrospect I don't feel I did $800 of work either. A bit of drilling here, a bit of wire-fishing there, but that's about it. Cheap cable raceways from home depot made a big difference BTW. If you want the labor done, it's understandable. But don't compromise the system as a whole _just_ for the labor - my opinion only.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Mikef,
I read through this thread and felt the the need to chime in. The first thing I would do before proceeding forward with this project is read and educate. After that I would read some more and educate further. Every piece you purchase should work in unison and at this price point contain NO weak links. You are talking some serious money here and to be honest when all is said and done you should have a fantastic setup. Take a step back, read through all of the threads here and go forward at a later date with a good working knowledge of what it is you are buying.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

mikef said:


> In his first demo he had 2 - 12" subwoofers...In the 2nd demo he didnt have a subwoofer. I couldnt tell the difference between the 2 set ups as far as sound.....


There should be a huge difference. If not, then either the system is not set up correctly, or proper test material was not used to show what the subs add, or your senses (hearing and feeling) are duller than normal.

Again, the subs should not hinder voice intelligibility at all. Usually the sounds that do compete with the voices are standard loud action sounds coming from the main speakers. Proper speakers and proper set up and proper room acoustics are the biggest factors for getting the best clear crisp voices.

I also completely agree using all 3 of the exact same speaker up front, bypassing the "matched center speaker" is best, if possible.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

gdstupak said:


> There should be a huge difference. If not, then either the system is not set up correctly,


It's my experience that when subs are set up correctly, they'll never intrude upon the source content. They'll lay in waiting like a Cheetah ready to pounce when the source material asks for it. Even on music content, they'll just make everything more lifelike without ever showcasing that they are in fact "subwoofers"!

Sometimes poor placement and very large areas can lead to a reduced perception of bass though. The room is a huge culprit with bass performance, and if you're sitting in the wrong spot for the wrong placement, you can end up missing out on the whole experience! 



> or proper test material was not used to show what the subs add,


This is my suspicion. If I want to demonstrate my system I'll bust out Inception :bigsmile:



> Again, the subs should not hinder voice intelligibility at all.


And if they ever presumably do, they're very poorly setup. And often this is the case more than anything with "built in" powered subwoofers IME.



> Proper speakers and proper set up and proper room acoustics are the biggest factors for getting the best clear crisp voices.


+1


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

GranteedEV said:


> .. they'll just make everything more lifelike without ever showcasing that they are in fact "subwoofers"!


I don't know how many times I've read that a subwoofer shouldn't be noticeable, that if your watching a movie and something makes you notice that your subwoofer is active means that it is set up improperly. Not in my experience, my system is eq'd pretty flat and many times throughout many movies I notice my subwoofer because my couch literally shakes and my eardrums will feel the pressure, and I'll say 'wow that was some good sub action.'
How much and how often it happens depends on the source material.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

gdstupak said:


> I don't know how many times I've read that a subwoofer shouldn't be noticeable, that if your watching a movie and something makes you notice that your subwoofer is active means that it is set up improperly. Not in my experience, my system is eq'd pretty flat and many times throughout many movies I notice my subwoofer because my couch literally shakes and my eardrums will feel the pressure, and I'll say 'wow that was some good sub action.'
> How much and how often it happens depends on the source material.


If you're noticing the bass in the film, that's one thing. You should certainly notice sub-bass, but it shouldn't stand out or dominate for example, on music content. IE it shouldn't be a "separate entity"; just an extension of the source material.

If you're noticing the _subwoofer_ itself, it could be a phase error.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

The bass should accentuate and accompany the movie. I don't think you should be able to identify the location or placement of the sub. I don't have the greatest sub but I do think Auddyssey helped maximize it's potential.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Right, you shouldn't notice the location of the subwoofer unless it is playing content above ~80hz.
When I say I notice my sub it's probably because I am very familiar with my system and I know the freq range of my mains and I know the freq range of my subs so when I hear and feel certain effects from movies/music, I know that sound is coming from the mains or the sub. If I didn't know there was a subwoofer above my head in the ceiling, I would probably think that low rumbling was coming from my mains in front of me.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Wow, subs in the ceiling? I'd like to hear that setup.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Over the summer I installed an infinite baffle (IB) type enclosure in my ceiling that has (2) FI IB 18" subwoofers.
I was very pleased with my old standard outboard subs ((1) HSU & (1) home made 15"), but this new IB set up is way better, very much worth the work. 
The central location of the sub in the room gives a very evenly dispersed and flat freq response. I am not an advocate of placing subs near walls which in my experience causes uneven coverage and causes uneven freq response (boosting of certain freq).


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