# Wood or concrete?



## Coytee (May 7, 2010)

I don't yet have a sub and the wood/concrete issue has crossed my mind.

Currently, my system is upstairs in the living room. The floor is made of wooden joists, 3/4" plywood and then another 3/4" T&G wooden floor. Given that I do not yet have a subwoofer, when my speakers currently play a low note you can still easily feel it because the floor vibrates. Adding a subwoofer to this right now would make it feel like the house is vibrating apart.

Once I move everything downstairs, I will be in a room with tile floor, over a concrete pad. The speakers (cornerhorns) will be in corners that are external load bearing block walls, finished indoors with drywall. One of the walls has dirt up the entire right side of it and the other half of this same wall has no dirt on it (I'm on a hill).

So, in general, I'm going from a springy upstairs room to an all concrete enclosure, except for the ceiling.

I'm beginning to wonder if I'll have much visceral impact from a sub in this room at all since nothing will shake.

I think upstairs, the floor vibrating is part of what reaffirms the feeling of something exploding. If the floor downstairs won't vibrate and transmit this energy to my chair.... is there sense in getting a sub?

Thoughts?


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2010)

Absolutely. You actually don't want a room to shake, as it can create distorted sounding vibrations. You will still hear and feel the sub to a point. If you really want to shake your sofa/chair, then look in to bass shakers.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

After adding a sub if your feel that your missing the tactial feeling for the base, you may want to investigate some transducers such as:

http://www.earthquakesound.com/quake10.htm

or if you don't already own some theater seating

http://www.berkline.com/ht/badmin/article.php?cid=104


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## Coytee (May 7, 2010)

The fireplace makes a REAL racket! There is a buzz in there that I can't find to get rid of. I had never thought of the tranducer things. Would those be used in conjunction with a subwoofer or would you need a sub at all if you use those?

If it matters, my main speakers are large horns and although I do not know their -3db point, I know we have a 32hz PEQ in the active crossover so they'll boogy down there. My 'small' speakers (center channel and rear surrounds) are Klipsch LaScalas.


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## jjmbxkb (Jun 1, 2010)

Yes by all means, get a sub or two! The clean sounding bass from high qualilty subs with strong midbass and low extension is what gives you the kick in the chest viseral impact. 

I believe many find the vibrations distracting, and would do everything dampening it. There are sub platforms for sale or people DIY their own to absorb the energy and clean up the sound. If you like to feel it, you may want to get a few buttkickers installed into the seats.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

it is possible to "feel" a pressure wave from a sub, though I have only experienced that in a car and it only "cool" for about 15sec...

You can "hear" a sub down to 20hz so your horns will give you base, however if they try sub base the everthing else suffers.

Tactile transducers can be set for transient impact, i.e you don't feel them all the time only when something dramtic happens (a bomb exploding nearby)


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## Coytee (May 7, 2010)

jjmbxkb said:


> The clean sounding bass from high qualilty subs with strong midbass and low extension is what gives you the kick in the chest viseral impact.


Just so we're on a similar page, I don't leave much to be desired when we talk about visceral impact 

If I got a sub I would probably cross them at 60hz or perhaps less if I was given the go-ahead. I want to keep as much punch in these as I can.


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## jjmbxkb (Jun 1, 2010)

Coytee said:


> The fireplace makes a REAL racket! There is a buzz in there that I can't find to get rid of. I had never thought of the tranducer things. Would those be used in conjunction with a subwoofer or would you need a sub at all if you use those?
> 
> If it matters, my main speakers are large horns and although I do not know their -3db point, I know we have a 32hz PEQ in the active crossover so they'll boogy down there. My 'small' speakers (center channel and rear surrounds) are Klipsch LaScalas.


While I was typing, there were many other responses, and we are all saying the same thing. You don't need need a sub to use tranducers, which are just like speakers, but transform sound energy into vibrations in your chairs. However, probably every transducer owner has sub(s).


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## jjmbxkb (Jun 1, 2010)

Coytee said:


> Just so we're on a similar page, I don't leave much to be desired when we talk about visceral impact
> 
> If I got a sub I would probably cross them at 60hz or perhaps less if I was given the go-ahead. I want to keep as much punch in these as I can.


I see, those are montrous. Now I see why you were wondering about subs. You probably don't need one.


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## Coytee (May 7, 2010)

Yes, they are monsters. I used to think my LaScalas were big... These are however, pretty efficient with the floor space.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

I would have never thought of putting those speakers in a room that size. I always though the premise for the corner horns was to expand the sound by using the wall as an expension of the horn itself, making a huge room sound smaller.


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## Coytee (May 7, 2010)

Andre said:


> I always though the premise for the corner horns was to expand the sound by using the wall as an expension of the horn itself, making a huge room sound smaller.


I'm not very technical but I would contend that you have the first part right and the second part wrong. Yes, on a traditional Klipschorn, the room walls are the final flair of the horn. They are required for the horn to dig down and perform properly. The Jubilee was designed to replace the Khorn and it has an enclosed back which the Khorn does not. The Jubilee can be 'near' the corner and perform just as well as the Khorn which must be TIGHT in the corner.

That said, regarding making a huge room sound smaller..... the stage that these present you with is pretty awesome. I am always making open invitations to anyone that is interested to hear them to let me know. It's a valid invite. I'm in Knoxville and have open doors. Or, I can simply turn them up when you tell me to and you can stick your head out your front door and give a listen :scratch:


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

Is there any way you can borrow a sub (I mean, a good sub) and try both set ups???

You need a sub that can play below your speakers frequency response (I believe you mention 35Hz), so a sub that can play to 20Hz will be ok, then you can decide if you need a sub or not.

I agree with the transducers... I own a pair of buttkickers (1 on each row of seats), they add to the movie experience; is nice to have your seats move during a crash or explosions... sometimes with gun fire :innocent:


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Get a good sub, you can never have enough bass.:devil:


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## Coytee (May 7, 2010)

salvasol said:


> Is there any way you can borrow a sub (I mean, a good sub) and try both set ups???
> 
> You need a sub that can play below your speakers frequency response (I believe you mention 35Hz), so a sub that can play to 20Hz will be ok, then you can decide if you need a sub or not.
> 
> I agree with the transducers... I own a pair of buttkickers (1 on each row of seats), they add to the movie experience; is nice to have your seats move during a crash or explosions... sometimes with gun fire :innocent:


The transducers sound interesting. I highly doubt I could find a sub that would 'keep up' with the efficiency of these speakers anywhere near me. Some fellow owners of them have bought a pair of the Danley tapped horn sub woofers, I think the DTS10 and had rave reviews about them.

I'm primarily curious about how much vibrations will get lost in a room with concrete floors over the room with wooden joists.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

When i lived in the basement of my moms house with open brick walls and open joists to the floor above i never felt as i was loseing bass, i know she didn't appreciate it much when i was jammin but it always sounded nice down there while above that sounded like a trunk lid rattiling from subs. OOPS! Sorry mom!:devil:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

There is no replacement for a good quality sub. No mater how low your mains go or how expensive they are a mid to high end sub will go lower and be cleaner than just going with but-kickers and full range speakers alone.
In a room your size a nice mid sized sub would be all you need.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Once your do move the to the basement. Do you have a buddy with a sub? Just to see. Found these pics of a finished Jubilee HT

http://207.67.68.51/forums/p/106420/1072639.aspx


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## Coytee (May 7, 2010)

He's one of my buddies. Unfortunately for me, he lives in Kansas. (I wonder if he has a dog? :devil

The real problem as I see it and I will be the first to admit I might be wrong... is simply matching output. These things are rated around 108 db/1-watt as I understand it. There is in fact, a sticker on the bass bin that says 1,200 watts max (not that I have ever nor will ever experience that)

Point being, and I'll admit I'm being over simplistic with this comment to simply try to make the point black/white, I need a very capable sub. What if I mated these with a bose "bass module". Although I'm well aware that that isn't nearly the appropriate use for the bass module (unless you listen to bose?? ) but it will simply get drown out by the larger horns.

Now, we step up to a modest sub.... I would expect to have the same problem, no?

As a side comment, I have the larger brothers to these as well that I've used outdoors (a pair of MWM bass bins) and I asked Klipsch what would be the best way to use these subs outdoors.

His recommendation was FOUR of their largest subs. Not one, not two nor three, but FOUR of them. Granted this is for outdoors and there is no room gain.

I only say this to try to illustrate the rather large disparity of what I've been told. Using four of Klipsch's largest sub (KPT-884) to a moderate sub for a room this size. I'm mixing uses yes...but part of the point still remains I think, if you put a 4bbl carb on your Chevell SS 396 you better also have tires and a transmission that can "keep up" with that engine. 

Aside from all the which sub to use is my over-riding wondering of simply, what do I gain or lose by going from a wooden room (floor joists with solid log walls) to an all concrete room. If the concrete room doesn't "flex" at all, then in a sense, why bother with a sub at all????


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

To be very honest, I don't know what you would loose or gain sound wise. Find out to me is the whole point of this hobby. Listen to your favorite movie and song with the boys saturday morning, then move everthing to the new room. Listen again and chit chat over a few beers. Ideally one of these friends has a sub, doesn't matter if its a 12" Cerwin Vega for 1987, bring it in, hook it up. Play a bit of sound track, whatch faces, twick the crossover. More discussion, more beer. Move the sub around the room.

Too me thats a fun afternoon/evening

One of my questions would be, did the jublees sound less strained when you rolled off the bottom end.


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

Andre said:


> One of my questions would be, did the jublees sound less strained when you rolled off the bottom end.


I completelly agree with this statement... maybe they will sound better if they don't have to play below 80Hz.



> ...what do I gain or lose by going from a wooden room (floor joists with solid log walls) to an all concrete room. If the concrete room doesn't "flex" at all, then in a sense, why bother with a sub at all????


Is hard to say... but I think that wherever you use to cover the concrete will affect what you gain or loose.

If you use laminate floor, it will vibrate some because is floating (unless you glue it), tile or carpet will have different results :blink:


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