# Onix Rocket RS1000 Ninja Elite Upgrade



## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

*Onix Rocket RS1000 Ninja Elite Upgrade (Removal of old SIG XO)*

Greetings!

Finally got around to gutting my old Onix 1000's. Prepping for my new Ninja Elite Upgrades to arrive. My old XO's are finally ready to be sent off for the Ninja to work his magic! Getting a cabinet overhaul as well. 

Can't wait!!!!!




















Here are some more pictures of the removal for your enjoyment.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dwayland/sets/72157625577919782/



More pictures when the upgrades arrive!

Cheers,

Derek


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## Mike_WI (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks.
Interested RS1000Sig owner here watching...

I always thought it would be easier to have a high quality XO and cabinet damping put in BEFORE the speaker was built!


Mike


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

Mike_TX said:


> Thanks.
> Interested RS1000Sig owner here watching...
> 
> I always thought it would be easier to have a high quality XO and cabinet damping put in BEFORE the speaker was built!
> ...


While I have always been pleased with these, after hearing the new ACA Trinity LCR's, I had the itch to add a touch of high end to these big guys.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

> I always thought it would be easier to have a high quality XO and cabinet damping put in BEFORE the speaker was built!


Those stock XO's don't look _too_ bad. 



> While I have always been pleased with these, after hearing the new ACA Trinity LCR's, I had the itch to add a touch of high end to these big guys.


I am looking around at speakers too, getting bored with my 602S3's. Have fun with the upgrade, Dwayland!


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## 1BionicEar (Apr 14, 2008)

I was also thinking that the the crossovers didn't look too bad. You would hope so on a product at this price point.

On the other hand, those pointed nipple tweeters look fabulous. "thumbsup:


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

1BionicEar said:


> On the other hand, those pointed nipple tweeters look fabulous. "thumbsup:


Yeah, it was pretty chilly in the house today. ;-)


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## Mike_WI (Feb 26, 2009)

What is the woofer/sub section like (pics)?

Mike


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## woofersus (May 6, 2008)

tesseract said:


> I am looking around at speakers too, getting bored with my 602S3's.


Maybe we can get some ACA Trinity's out your way for a gtg/demo sometime soon...


I'm curious to see how much of a difference the Ninja upgrades make for you Derek. Thanks for documenting the upgrade.


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

Mike_TX said:


> What is the woofer/sub section like (pics)?
> 
> Mike


The powered driver is fully enclosed within the cabinet, so it was easier to simply de-solder those connections from the network, hence no removal of the driver.


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## etcarroll (Mar 17, 2008)

You didn't opt for the Blackhole dampening material in the sub chamber? I put it in mine along with the no-rez in the upper chamber.


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## etcarroll (Mar 17, 2008)

Mike_TX said:


> What is the woofer/sub section like (pics)?
> 
> Mike


Mike -

It's just a seperate chamber with the driver shooting out the side of the box, take a look at very last post in my thread on performing the upgrade. Not a great pic, but something.

Gene

http://www.ninjasreview.com/forum/showthread.php?574-RS1000k-Classic-to-Ninja-Master


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## Mike_WI (Feb 26, 2009)

etcarroll said:


> Mike -
> 
> It's just a seperate chamber with the driver shooting out the side of the box, take a look at very last post in my thread on performing the upgrade. Not a great pic, but something.
> 
> ...


Thanks.
I didn't read your full thread, but how noticeable was the upgrade(s)?

Mike


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

etcarroll said:


> You didn't opt for the Blackhole dampening material in the sub chamber? I put it in mine along with the no-rez in the upper chamber.


I will be replacing the material in the powered driver chamber as well, I just didn't need to fully remove it yet. Waiting on the goods to arrive.


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## etcarroll (Mar 17, 2008)

Mike_TX said:


> Thanks.
> I didn't read your full thread, but how noticeable was the upgrade(s)?
> 
> Mike


Well Mike, I bought the upgrade under the assumption BD music disks were going to be the media type that supplanted redbook cd, where SACD, DVD-A and others had failed. As that never happened, I began building a dedicated 2 channel system after the upgrade, so I really never used them as I thought I would.

With that said, I found upgrading my center had a more noticeable impact than the L and R mains did for HDTV and Movie watching.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

woofersus said:


> Maybe we can get some ACA Trinity's out your way for a gtg/demo sometime soon...


I've heard rumblings of a GTG here someday. Keep me posted, I might actually have some CHT subs by then I could bring.


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

Ninja XO & NoRez in the house! :whoopie:

Just in time for a little weekend project... Pics to follow...


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

1. Drivers and amp re-removed (L/R)
2. Old dampening material removed (L/R)
3. Internal glue remains scraped away (L/R)
4. Cabinet cleaned (L/R)
5. Black Hole installed in driver cabinet & old poly re-stuffed (L/R)
6. Amp re-installed (L/R)
7. Ninja Elite (w/Platinum Sonicap Capacitors)XO installed (L/R)

So far the only issue I had was that one of the Sonicaps was making it impossible to fit the XO into the driver opening, so out came the Dremel. (The CAP in the 1st picture on the top left gave me some trouble.)

Next:
1. No-Rez install
2. Driver re-install/re-solder (I just hope I can make sense of my labeling.) :saywhat:

Here is a link to some more pictures, not many, but a few. Below are some of the more interesting pictures. Sorry I didn't get more, but I was sharing the camera between, 3 other kids this afternoon... http://www.flickr.com/photos/dwayland/sets/72157625877583062/show/



















Out with the bad memories.....


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

It's 2am and I am having a little listening session... Just me and the dog... The kids have a make up school day today, so I can't crank it up too loud just yet. So far, I am very happy!!!!!

More pics.... NoRez inner cabinet pictures


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

Just ran Audyssey and it states that my front L/R's are out of phase. Checked all of my external wires and everything it good. I am "pretty" sure I soldered everything correctly when I re-installed all of the drivers, but perhaps I missed one. Or, could it be that the new XO simply just "sounds" out of phase to Audyssey?

To my own ears, they don't "sound" out of phase....

Hhhmmmm.....

Guess I will have to check all of the internal drivers again... Time to start unscrewing, again.....


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## rsa (Dec 9, 2008)

dwayland said:


> Or, could it be that the new XO simply just "sounds" out of phase to Audyssey?


I think that's your answer. This isn't the first time I've heard reports of that Audyssey warning with RS850/1000's. Here's an example by one of our own. I want to say that the 4" driver is wired backwards deliberately, but... :geezer: 

You could always ask Danny on Audio Circle. He designed the crossover.


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## Mike_WI (Feb 26, 2009)

*Ignore Audyssey "out of phase" for RS1K's*



dwayland said:


> Just ran Audyssey and it states that my front L/R's are out of phase. Checked all of my external wires and everything it good. I am "pretty" sure I soldered everything correctly when I re-installed all of the drivers, but perhaps I missed one. Or, could it be that the new XO simply just "sounds" out of phase to Audyssey?
> 
> To my own ears, they don't "sound" out of phase....
> 
> ...


My unmodified RS1000Signatures also get an "out of phase" signal from Audyssey.
Ignore it.
Some speakers are setup that way.
It has to do with various ways to achieve crossovers with multiple drivers.
I'm sure there are theoretical reasons why that isn't ideal that are beyond me...

Mike


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## Mike_WI (Feb 26, 2009)

*Polarity for av123 RS1000's*



rsa said:


> I think that's your answer. This isn't the first time I've heard reports of that Audyssey warning with RS850/1000's. Here's an example by one of our own. I want to say that the 4" driver is wired backwards deliberately, but... :geezer:
> 
> You could always ask Danny on Audio Circle. He designed the crossover.


Ha!

I should have read your post and link before posting.:embarass:
Right on!

*Polarity for av123 RS1000's (7-10-09)*


> *System *
> (full notes in post #1 of signature link)
> *Receiver: *Denon 5308CI (FW updated 2/6/09)
> *Mains:* av123 Rocket (Onix) RS1000 Signature
> ...


Responses:

*J_Palmer_Cass*
(bold added)


> I don't have Audyssey, but I do have 3 way "large" mains and 2 way center and surround speakers.
> *Bottom line is the 3 way mains must be wired in relative reverse polarity as compared with the 2 way speakers. *
> 
> I tested my speakers relative polarity the old fashioned way - pink noise and TrueRTA.


*audyssey (Chris K.):*


> It's not an error. It's a warning.
> If you check the wiring on the back of the AVR and the back of the speaker and it's fine, then hit Skip and move on.
> Audyssey does not switch polarity.
> It simply gives you a warning when it thinks it has detected a speaker out of phase.



Mike


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## Mike_WI (Feb 26, 2009)

*Pre/Post mods*



dwayland said:


> Just ran Audyssey and it states that my front L/R's are out of phase. Checked all of my external wires and everything it good. I am "pretty" sure I soldered everything correctly when I re-installed all of the drivers, but perhaps I missed one. Or, could it be that the new XO simply just "sounds" out of phase to Audyssey?
> 
> To my own ears, they don't "sound" out of phase....
> 
> ...


How does it sound?
Any subjective thoughts?
Any pre/post objective measurement differences?

Mike


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

Mike_TX said:


> How does it sound?
> Any subjective thoughts?
> Any pre/post objective measurement differences?
> 
> Mike


Haven't gotten to really listen yet.... Trying to get the kids off to school 1st. Snow make up day.

Thanks for the links and info regarding phasing. I know I soldered everything correctly and did not relish the thought of taking the drivers out again for inspection.

I can't really give a direct a/b comparison I'm afraid... In the month I have been without my 1000s, I have completely changed my electronics, so knowing if the change is from the XO or from the new power source will be hard to tell.


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## Mike_WI (Feb 26, 2009)

dwayland said:


> Haven't gotten to really listen yet.... Trying to get the kids off to school 1st. Snow make up day.
> 
> Thanks for the links and info regarding phasing. I know I soldered everything correctly and did not relish the thought of taking the drivers out again for inspection.
> 
> I can't really give a direct a/b comparison I'm afraid... In the month I have been without my 1000s, I have completely changed my electronics, so knowing if the change is from the XO or from the new power source will be hard to tell.


Roger roger.
Audio memory is notoriously short lived -- unless of course you are a professional audio reviewer and can remember back decades.

Any measurements pre/post?

Mike


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## 1BionicEar (Apr 14, 2008)

I also remember reading that some of the drivers were intentionally wired out-of-phase on some of the Rocket products. Trust your ears.


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

In both screen captures, the top graph represents the left speaker and the bottom, the right.
It's my 1st go at using this software, but the results make sense with my room. The right speaker is positioned closer to a corner with helps boost the dB in the 40-60 range.
Looks like a pretty flat graph though... 

FYI: The powered drivers were NOT in use during the tests and the speakers were calibrated to 70dB. Maybe someone can chime in with a more detailed description of my graph results. I am still reading the manual.

Pink Noise









Sweep


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## Mike_WI (Feb 26, 2009)

FR looks very flat.
Can you change the Y-axis to differentiate more?

Mike


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

Mike_TX said:


> FR looks very flat.
> Can you change the Y-axis to differentiate more?
> 
> Mike


Yes I can. I can get rid of the split screen which will expand the Y axis. I also ran it with "C" weighting on and after reading a bit more and messing around with the software a bit more today, it looks like using "A" weighting will give a more accurate representation of my rooms response.) Since I have a demo version of the software, I was unable to save my previous results, so I will need to run the tones again. I'll do it again tonight when all is calm in the house. Kids are in control of the theater at the moment.


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

The top two lines represent a "log sweep" at 1/2 resolution, of the left and right speakers. The bottom two lines are the baseline. IE (quiet room.) The mic is very, very sensitive and even picks up outside noise, hence the baseline is always jumping around.
Again, these measurements were taken with the powered drivers turned off.










A 1/1 (Smoothed out) curve of the previous "log sweep"









Pink Noise at 1/24 resolution(probably a bit to much):
Green=Left
Gray=Right
Blue=Both
Again, the bottom line was the current baseline "live" noise at the time of screen capture and can be used as a baseline. Looks like I have a drop in dB at 60 Hz to work out. :-(
I made this picture larger so you could see the colors better.


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## Fatcat (Aug 17, 2008)

Very cool thread.
It's making me wonder if it's worth "Ninjafying" my 850sigs. I went ahead and gave them the no-rez treatment a few years back. Just don't know how much more can be wrung out from switching the standard signature crossovers out for the Ninja ones. 
Food for thought.
Thanks for sharing your upgrade story Derek.

Best...Carlo.


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

Fatcat said:


> Very cool thread.
> It's making me wonder if it's worth "Ninjafying" my 850sigs. I went ahead and gave them the no-rez treatment a few years back. Just don't know how much more can be wrung out from switching the standard signature crossovers out for the Ninja ones.
> Food for thought.
> Thanks for sharing your upgrade story Derek.
> ...


Me pleasure, glad you are enjoying it.

I am sooooo happy I upgraded. Sooooooo much better than selling, taking a hit, dealing with shipping etc.... Makes good financial sence to upgrade internally before even thinking of upgrading.

I truly feel like I have a pair of brand spanking new speakers! So good in fact, I am going to destroy the boxes!!!! And I NEVER destroy boxes... That should tell you just how satisfied I am. :cloud9:

Derek


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## se-riously (Mar 6, 2009)

Fatcat said:


> It's making me wonder if it's worth "Ninjafying" my 850sigs. I went ahead and gave them the no-rez treatment a few years back. Just don't know how much more can be wrung out from switching the standard signature crossovers out for the Ninja ones.


If you're running your 850's along with Bigfoot, I would suggest Ninjafying Bigfoot first, since it's the hardest working speaker in a HT environment.

For those on a budget, you can get maximum bang-for-buck from the 850 Sigs by doing the DIY No Rez (industrial floor tiles w/ open cell foam). Per Danny, this takes you to 80% of the effectiveness of No Rez at a only 20% of the cost of the real thing. The cost savings alone with pay for most of the replacement caps in an Elite kit. If you're on a really tight budget, upgrade the caps in the tweeter circuit before the others.

Derek - I forgot to ask. Did the No Rez kit from the Ninja include pieces for the midrange/tweeter chamber? The instructions online suggest that the existing material in that chamber remains untouched.


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

se-riously said:


> Derek - I forgot to ask. Did the No Rez kit from the Ninja include pieces for the midrange/tweeter chamber? The instructions online suggest that the existing material in that chamber remains untouched.


You are correct. No changes to the upper chamber.


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

Question: Any marked benefit to stuffing and I mean really jamming, the entire speaker with polyfil, even though I now have no-rez installed? Just wanting to make it as inert as possible.


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## Fatcat (Aug 17, 2008)

Very high praise indeed Derek. Now you really have me thinking about the upgrade!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think stuffing the speaker with poly-fill won't affect the inertness of the speaker but it may change it's tuning, yes? Although adding more to the closed powered woofer chamber might help you with low end. Probably need to experiment with that to really see what difference it would make.
@ se-riously, I sold my Bigfoot over a year ago and I had done a sig crossover upgrade and No-Rez to that as well. I made a DIY center channel speaker from plans off the Zaph Audio website/blog and it works much better IMO that the Bigfoot ever did.

Best.....Carlo.


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## se-riously (Mar 6, 2009)

Derek - I remember either Danny or Sean mentioning that a light stuffing of polyfill, post No Rez, is just fine so long as it doesn't block the ports.

Carlo - I'll consider DIY someday, but the WAF of the Rockets sets the bar pretty high in terms of fit and finish.


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## etcarroll (Mar 17, 2008)

Especially if you have the original, or classic Bigfoot. I did, it was very sibilant. Upgrading the Ninja Master was a huge improvement for the center speaker.



se-riously said:


> If you're running your 850's along with Bigfoot, I would suggest Ninjafying Bigfoot first, since it's the hardest working speaker in a HT environment.


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## Fatcat (Aug 17, 2008)

se-riously said:


> Derek - I remember either Danny or Sean mentioning that a light stuffing of polyfill, post No Rez, is just fine so long as it doesn't block the ports.
> 
> Carlo - I'll consider DIY someday, but the WAF of the Rockets sets the bar pretty high in terms of fit and finish.


I agree with you on the WAF. My ebony big foot was gorgeous but as it sat inside a cabinet you never really got to appreciate it's looks. One of the reasons I went with DIY center design that I did was that it fit in a Parts Express pre fab 1 cubic ft enclosure as I have no woodworking skills to speak of! And since I chose the sealed version of the design I think it's a little more tolerant of being placed in a cabinet than the ported Bigfoot was.


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## dwayland (Jul 3, 2008)

All this talk about center channels is making me wish I had one again... :scratchchin:

Hoping to aquire an ACA Trinity in the very near future....


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