# Magnepan MMGs and subwoofer



## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Any ideas which subwoofer will mate the best with these?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Just about any good quality subwoofer would work fine, the likes of SVS are a good choice. If your receiver/Pre-pro does not have a good crossover adjustment make sure the sub has one and some eq adjustments. Subs dont have the same "need to match the mains" issue but all the same you still need to spend the money to get one that blends well.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Which subwoofers would allow sending only frequencies above 50Hz to the Maggies?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Do you need high level inputs and outputs on the sub or does the receiver you have have a sub output?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

For a sub with the High level speakers inputs and outputs the SVS PB12Plus is the best choice if you dont require them then I highly recommend the PB13Ultra But that depends on your budget. The PB12 NSD is also a good choice if the PB13U is to high.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

I would be using an integrated amp with no subwoofer output, so I would have to use the speaker high level connections and the subwoofer's crossover. This is for music only.

What about the HSU STF-1? I've also heard that the Martin Logan Dynamo 700 is good for music, as are some other small sealed subs.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

If this is strictly for music a sealed sub is also a good choice and there are lots of options however most do not have high level inputs that you require. HSU are also great subs and so are Elemental Design. The SVS SB12Plus gets lots of good comments but it also does not have high level inputs. I honestly think the HSU STF1 is a bit small you wold be better off to get a PB12Plus and you would get the best response, its a fantastic sub and is great for music.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Yeah, but the SVS SB12Plus is more than what the Maggies cost. Looks good though, with high level ins and outs. The room is a dedicated music room, about 11.5' x 15'.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

How about the PB12NSD? I have a friend who has one and its really good for the size.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I would actually recommend a sealed subwoofer for your Maggies. I am personally using a Martin Logan Depth with my Martin Logan HT and I absolutely love it. It, to me, strikes the perfect balance between music and HT.

The non "i" version of the Depth should be available for a grand or less. The only differences with the current "i" models are different cosmetics, slightly more powerful amplifier, and tweaked servo control.

When I called Martin Logan about adding a second Depth, I asked them if there was an issue to using a Depth and Depth i and the response was they were so similar that it was not an issue. The same applies with the Grotto as well.

With the Descent versus the Descent i, there are major differences. The Descent has (1) 400 watt amplifier while the Descent i has (3) 250 watt amplifiers. The Depth and Descent both feature 3 woofers spaced 120 degrees apart to reduce resonances.

Here is the Stereophile Review for the Depth:http://www.stereophile.com/subwoofers/804ml/
It really is a great subwoofer and is one of the most flexible Subwoofers to integrate on the market.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

What about the ML Dynamo 700 for $700?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The Dynamo really is not built to the same standard as the ESL Series. (Grotto, Depth, Descent) Nor does it have the same hookup flexibility.

You can sometimes find a used Grotto for 700 Dollars or less. It features the same 10" woofer as the 3500 Dollar Descent.
Cheers,
JJ


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## goonstopher (Mar 2, 2009)

what about these - known to be superior for music and as low as 649

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html



Or this for $700 shipped - hsu is known for its musicality 

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk3.html


Third option, never seen reviews but a good company

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_138&products_id=681


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I have only read good things about Rythmik Audio. I also like that it is both servo controlled and sealed.
That being said, I have never personally listened to any of their wares.

I have both listened to and am a huge fan of both eD and Hsu. Currently, Hsu has the VTF 3 on sale for 639 in the Maple Finish only as well. While both are ported, they are excellent all around Subwoofers.

I would still recommend looking for a used Grotto or Depth, but any of the ones you linked to should work well. Given the Speakers, I might go for the Rythmik because of it being sealed and servo controlled.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Due to the configuration I'd like to try http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ents/24863-new-two-channel-system-advice.html I would prefer a sub with an LFE input. I would love to find a used ML Grotto or Depth.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I went from a Paradigm Servo 15 to my current Depth and could not be possibly happier. As a fellow Panel Speaker owner, I really think it is worth it to hold out until you can find a Depth or Grotto at a good price.

When my Servo 15 failed, I started a hunt for a Subwoofer that was wide reaching. I came unbelievably close to purchasing an eD A5-350 Subwoofer, but eventually found a Depth available in my area for a ridiculously good price.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Now I'm always trying to save a few bucks here (sub) to spend a few more bucks there (amp) so now I'm looking for input on the Elemental Design A3S - 250 for $350. The Martin Logan Dynamo 10" is in closeout for $450. Both are sealed, the A3S - 250 has a more powerful amp. Hard to find any reviews on the A3S - 250 though.

Does someone know how the LFE input works on the A3S - 250? On the line input jacks it has a Right jack and a Left/Mono/LFE jack but no switch/selector. Does it automatically sense a single input to bypass the sub amp crossover?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
When you connect it to the LFE port it will bypass the internal crossover on the eD. eD has a stellar reputation and everyone I have listened to is excellent.

If choosing between the Dynamo and an eD, I would go with the eD. While I love ML's ESL Series Subwoofers, the Design Series (Dynamo, Abyss) really do not offer the same engineering and construction that makes the ESL Series special. In which case, the eD will offer better value and performance.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

JJ or anyone else actually heard the Elemental Designs A3S-250?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I have not listened to that particular model, but have listened to several other eD Subwoofers and they have all been truly stellar.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Wouldn't it be cool to get two eD A3S-250s and make stands for the MMGs to sit just above them? I'm not sure if 14 1/4" would be too high for the MMGs to sit, but for my listening position that would put my ears about at the midway point of the panels vertically. If one buys two A3S-250s they are $300 a piece. I doubt I need two though.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The advantages to dual subwoofers transcends loudness. It really helps to get the smoothest room response and best integration to your room. It is awesome that Onkyo's 007 Series allows independent Audyssey calibrations of dual Subwoofers.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

How do you think it would work building stands for the MMGs which place each of them fully upright directly above a A3S-250 sub? The panel could be aligned approximately with the voice coil of the sub's woofer for time coherence (probaably not critical for frequencies 50Hz and lower). It would be a similar configuration to several Martin Logans in the ESL line.

Update: I have asked eD about screwing into the top of the A3S-250 and mounting a 6" Simpson Corner Brace (A66) onto the subwoofer. The holes in these braces line up perfectly with the mounting bolts for the MMGs.

Update 2: eD returned my inquiry and said one can certainly screw into the sub but it would affect resale. To avoid damage to the sub they offered to make painted stands with felt pads that would go over the top of the sub for $40. I could then screw into that for the corner braces to hold the MMGs.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I found a Martin Logan Grotto for an amazing price:http://cgi.ebay.com/Martin-Logan-Gr...Subwoofers?hash=item2a0454e097#ht_2775wt_1035
479 Dollars buy it now is an awesome price. You could keep it a while and sell it on Audiogon for more than you paid for it.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Oops! Ended before I got to it. Thanks for watching out for me though!


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Here is another Grotto for a good price:http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1270168994&/Martin-Logan-Grotto-One-owner-
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Sold! But unfortunately not to me.

I'm still pursuing the double eD A3S-250s to reside under the MMGs. I'm currently in the process of selling a bunch of stuff off to begin buying the new stuff.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
eD are a fine solution. Though biased, I do believe dual ESL Series Martin Logan Subwoofers would be amazing.

It is only because you have Panel Speakers that I am advocating a Subwoofer that was designed with Panels in mind.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

$600 for two eD A3S-250s is very attractive considering my budget. However, finding a single used ML Grotto for around $600 is on my radar. Again, my room is small and this is for music only so the demands placed on a subwoofer for this implementation would be low. I'm convinced a sealed sub with servo technology would be the best match for the MMGs. The Rythmik F12 is in the mix as well.


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## smiledon (Feb 2, 2009)

Hi Jackfish,
I have a pair of SMGs so I feel qualified. IMHO you will not be crossing to the maggies at 50hz, but more like 70hz. to avoid a hole.
The smallest maggies work their magic with light ensemble jazz blues, Leo Kottke etc. I fear that most subs will pollute that floating airy sound. I would buy the mags only if they matched your music.
You shrink at the thought of a sub that costs more than the mmgs and I agree. Better to go to a bigger Maggie. That way you would retain coherence.
But even the big ones can be a touch bass light. I have a pal with MMG 3.6. he loves them with his opera and classical, but I could not have them in my jazz/rock system. Another pal has them with top ARC dual monoblock amplification and stereo Duntec subwoofers. They are great.

Distance from the back wall is crucial, especially if it is hard. Accurate to the inch!!! Soft back walls almost never sound bad but perhaps miss the best effect. 
Just my pennies worth.
Phil


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Jackfish, I really think the Grotto would be a fantastic choice. Keep your eyes peeled on Craigslist as well. You might find a Depth for 7-800 if you are lucky. Depth's sell in a hurry on Audiogon for 900 to 1000. Depth i's sell for 1500 in no time there. Grotto do show up for around 600 every now and then.
Truly worth holding out for.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

I got a pair of MMGs in excellent condition, they arrived yesterday. As I learn more I'm inclined to consider Peter Gunn's Magnestands before getting a subwoofer. http://www.indiespinzone.com/mag/mag7.html Sure they will add almost $2000 to the cost of the speakers but the benefits sound like they will be worth it. Remember, my room is only 11'6" feet by 15'9" and just going to a bigger Maggie is not the solution it was once thought to be.

If I do add a sub it will either be an Epik Empire or Rythmik F12G.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

I purchased a B-stock Emotiva USP-1 and a used Emotiva ERC-1 today. I'd like the Emotiva UPA-1 monoblocks and may wait to see if any B-stock come in over the next several weeks.


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## eHum (Mar 4, 2007)

Jackfish, I browsed the thread. Here are a few comments that I hope will help:

- I hope you discovered the MUG at the asylum. I've owned my MMGs for about 2 years, love them.

- I left the search for a subwoofer solution for last. This, largely because on most music I can live without it. Lucky, I guess, but careful initial placement paid off. With some music, people sometimes think I am lying when I say that my current subw is turned off.

- In my search for one or two suitable subs for music I, too, arrived at the conclusion that the Elemental Design you liked could really do the trick. Their variable phase adjustment is a big plus for me. This was last December. Things are a bit tight right now so, that will have to wait.

- In the meantime, I placed my 10" Velodyne (low-price, vented) in the middle between the MMGs. Lost the deepest bass for movies that I had from corner placement. OTH, I gained a tremendous improvement in coherence. If this subw can do this, the Elemental Design sealed 10"ers with variable phase adjustment could be the bargain of the century. 

- Also discovered that the MMGs, crossed at 100hz, yield added mid/high clarity. This is not typically endorsed by the "experts". But then again, I grew up in a classical music environment. I don't crave "impressive" sound over accuracy. (Yet, they do sound impressive.)

- My MMGs are bi-amped, braced (not framed, as such) with wood, and standing straight 4ft from the back wall. Room 12x24. On good CD recordings, the combination of 3D imaging, wide & deep staging and overall clarity is impressive. On good orchestral music SACDs, these MMGs do the above even better and also reveal amazing tweeter performance for not being true ribbon tweeters.

- SACDs , however, pose my biggest problem with regard to the bass management...that's why I am lurking around....but that's another story.


Lastly, for the money you are talking about, I'd seriously look at the new Magnepan 1.7...after spending some tweaking time and enjoying your MMGs, of course! That's my own plan.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

I now have the Emotiva USP-1, ERC-1 and UPA-1 monoblocks in place with the Magnepan MMGs. I took an Acoustic Research S112PS subwoofer I had laying around and incorporated it into the system. I first tried a 50 Hz low and high pass filter, but have currently settled on 80 Hz as sounding better. For a cheap ported sub it is doing a pretty good job, but I'm sure I would notice a substantial difference with a Martin Logan, Epik, Rythmik, Definitive Technology or sealed Elemental Designs subwoofer. Last night for fun I put in Steve Stevens Flamenco A Go-Go and cranked it up on the Cinecitta track. Incredible! The cheap AR S112PS sub was quite convincing with the MMGs I thought.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Jackfish, so glad to read that your MMG's and the rest of your system is sounding great. Magneplanar simply makes wonderful Speakers.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Now that I've settled in to my Emotiva stack, Magnepan MMGs and cheap subwoofer I got to thinking that it might have been an elegant solution to get an Emotiva XPA-3 instead of the pair of UPA-1s and build a 1.5 cu. ft. sealed passive subwoofer (GR SW-12-04) with an L-pad. I'd run the subwoofer off one XPA-3 channel (300 watts into 4 Ohms) through the LP jack of the USP-1. Just a thought to save some money.


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## Omega (Apr 21, 2010)

For MMGs you will love NHT U2 subwoofer. Its a modular setup that comes with 2 acoustic suspension enclosure and a separate mono amp and an active crossover. You can also buy another amp for a stereo setup. There is a memorial day free shipping going on these days...


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