# Is it okay to remove fiberglass fill from speakers?



## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

Earlier today I moved everything out of the HT room to do some painting in there which went off without a hitch, as I was moving the speakers back in I noticed some rattling in each one including the sub. My daughter left me some presents in the form of toys which where stuffed into the ports, no big deal in my mind I'll just open them up and retrieve the items. 

I opened the first speaker up and to my surprise they used fiberglass as stuffing there is nothing covering it to keep fibers from moving around which concerns me so I got suited up just to get some toys out of my speakers. I would like to remove the fiberglass and replace it with polyfill if I do this would it have an adverse affect on my speakers?

Thank You 

Tony.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

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I'm not sure about adverse effects Ares but that would concern me also, I know my Paradigms use a cotton type batting material that you find at the fabric store (not that i've been to one:whistling i wonder if you gave it a shot, save the fiberglass that you take out and if you notice a differance then you could reinstall it and put a sort of porus type fabric over the ports something like grill cloth:dontknow:.


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

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The other alternative is to buy some no-rez, that is considered the ideal cabinet deadening material.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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Bam your married we both know you been to a fabric store more than once , I could try and cover it with some fabric.

Dave I will have to check in to the no rez, one question how well does it work compared to glass, poly etc..?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

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Ares said:


> Bam your married we both know you been to a fabric store more than once , I could try and cover it with some fabric.


Ok you got me, thought i could slip that one by.:bigsmile:


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

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I have used both the fiberglass and the pillow stuffing and to my ears I cannot hear a difference. You could use some fishing line or string to keep the stuffing out of the way of the ports and drivers.

Matt

bambino do you take quilting classes? Come-on confess up. :bigsmile:


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

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Allright! Allright!...Only when my mom invites me to go on there quilt shop hops, just dont tell everyone. PLEASE.:rofl:


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

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Fiberglass is no longer considered a permanent health hazard. It will cause your skin to itch, and coughing if inhaled, but the association with asbestos due to its fibrous nature has been ruled out by long-term studies. You can ask your local commercial installer if you don't want to take my word for it.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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Hello Josuah,

Since you mentioned that it may not be considered a permanent health hazard so I went to look it up and this is what IDPH had to say about it.



> *Health effects from exposure to fiberglass can be different depending on the fiber size and type of exposure. Larger fibers have been found to cause skin, eye and upper respiratory tract irritation. There are other possible health effects:
> *
> 
> * A rash can appear when the fibers become embedded in the outer layer of the skin. No long-term health effects should occur from touching fiberglass.*
> ...


I'll leave the debate on whether it causes cancer or not to the scientists but as for the other issues this is something that concerns me since I have a three year old running around and it's not a risk I'm willing to take.
I read somewhere that if I change from fiberglass to poly that I would need to make sure that the poly measures the same density as the fiberglass or it will change the characteristics of the speakers is this true?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

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You could also spring for the harder to find, but closer to dense fiberglass, acoustic cotton ( the stuff made out of old jeans). Was the fiberglass fairly dense like oc403, or fluffy like the pink stuff?


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## tundraSQ (Mar 17, 2007)

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you can pull all the fiberglass out and replace it with nothing and i bet you would be hard pressed to notice a difference.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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eugovector said:


> You could also spring for the harder to find, but closer to dense fiberglass, acoustic cotton ( the stuff made out of old jeans). Was the fiberglass fairly dense like oc403, or fluffy like the pink stuff?


Hello Marshall,

I would say it's medium density but I did notice some fibers sitting in the port, I looked in through the port and saw the edge of the fiberglass is right there. I was thinking maybe I could screen the port to prevent any fibers from getting through.




tundraSQ said:


> you can pull all the fiberglass out and replace it with nothing and i bet you would be hard pressed to notice a difference.


I always thought that having some type of damping material helps with resonance and removing it would change the characteristics of the speakers.
​


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## tundraSQ (Mar 17, 2007)

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Ares said:


> I always thought that having some type of damping material helps with resonance and removing it would change the characteristics of the speakers.
> ​


not in a subwoofer.....pull it out and see.

Also unless you plan on blasting that sub and have your 3 year old breathing from the port tube at the same time you have nothing to worry about.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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The sub isn't an issue since for some reason PSB covered the fiberglass with some fabric but decided not to do the same with the speakers which strikes me as odd.


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## tundraSQ (Mar 17, 2007)

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Ares said:


> The sub isn't an issue since for some reason PSB covered the fiberglass with some fabric but decided not to do the same with the speakers which strikes me as odd.


maybe they figured there might not be enough internal movement to dislodge the fiberglass?


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2010)

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I've read that fiberglass works best in a sub, but I don't know why, or that is true.

The recycled denim insulation has about 30% better acoustic absorbing properties compared to fiberglass, so I've been wondering about that.

I've actually been working on some DIY acoustic wall tiles using my own worn out denim. They aren't done yet and it is time consuming, but I hope to have some measured results maybe next month.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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I thought the same thing but after seeing fibers in the ports they might have underestimated the internal movement.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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Generic said:


> I've read that fiberglass works best in a sub, but I don't know why, or that is true.
> 
> The recycled denim insulation has about 30% better acoustic absorbing properties compared to fiberglass, so I've been wondering about that.
> 
> I've actually been working on some DIY acoustic wall tiles using my own worn out denim. They aren't done yet and it is time consuming, but I hope to have some measured results maybe next month.


Hello Turner, 

If I may ask how are you making them? It maybe an option I would like to consider as well.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2010)

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Make at your own risk, as these are only a test. The overall goal is to just try and tame obvious reflections on a back wall.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

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Materials such as fiberglass, wool, dacron..etc have different effectivenesses at accoutical dampening. As I understand the stuff linked below is the best

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-317


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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Looks like your making a denim Bass trap looks cool Thanks Turner.

Hello Dre, 

See that is what I'm afraid of if the acoustic dampening is different between polyfill and fiberglass wouldn't I have to compensate for the difference between these two.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

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Fiberglass to Dacron you may just need a tad more, the accoutic fill from parts express, maybe a tad less. Will you hear the difference? Maybe, maybe not.

I would personally just leave the fiberglass in there, its not like its asbestos


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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Andre said:


> I would personally just leave the fiberglass in there, its not like its asbestos



True it's not asbestos but I'm more concerned for my daughter than either myself or my wife since she's three and if there is a chance it may harm her in anyway then that's a risk I'm not willing to take.

​


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2010)

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Ares said:


> Looks like your making a denim Bass trap looks cool Thanks Turner.
> 
> Hello Dre,
> 
> See that is what I'm afraid of if the acoustic dampening is different between polyfill and fiberglass wouldn't I have to compensate for the difference between these two.


Thanks, but they aren't bass traps. Just trying to tame the upper frequencies that can cause that echo sound in a room. A few on the sides and mainly on the back wall should help. I might try a few behind the speakers too.

I have a lot more to learn about room acoustics, but from what I understand, bass traps need to be really thick, and even have stuffed boxes that help trap the lower sound waves that are much harder to deal with.

Unless I have it wrong, the stuffing in your sub is to just simulate a larger box. I doubt that it would be thick enough to stop any of the bass from bouncing back to the back of the driver.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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I took some pics of one of the T45's so guys will get a better ideal of what I was talking about, just to clarify my worry is more with the T45's, C60 and the B15's then with the 6i since PSB has taken a great deal of caution by wrapping the fiberglass with fabric in the 6i.










Here you can see the fiberglass which are three 2" thick pieces rolled up which runs from the tweeter to the 2nd woofer.










Here is the inside of the box from the first woofers position as you can see there is nothing on the sidewalls and the fiberglass is in the back of the enclosure the port tube is curved.










Here's a closer look at the tube, if look down you can see some bracing and if you look really close you can see some fiberglass particles on the inside upper half of the tube wall.










Here is the port for the 2nd woofer as you can see there is some particles of fiberglass on the walls.










Here is the inside of the enclosure from the 2nd woofer's POV there is another roll of fiberglass and at the top it looks and feels like felt.










This one was just for kicks as you can see there is another brace just like the first one at the top of the enclosure also there is no fiberglass or any type of dampening to speak of.










Here another one from the same location but from a different angle, as you can see in the background there's the crossover and still no dampening material to found.

Thanks again Turner, 
Well that's a cool way then to control the echo and be green at the same time.


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

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I think in general, sticking more polyfill rather than less would be fine. I used polyfill in my builds. I don't know if anyone actually measures an exact amount of absorption when they are building speakers. As Generic mentioned, it is there to simulate a larger enclosure.

Why not just wrap the existing fiberglass in fabric so you don't have to worry about getting it exactly right?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

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I'm with you Ares on the not so much concerned for yourself as you are the little one, i wonder if PSB wraps the subs fill with fabric because there is much more turbulance in it as opposed to the towers:dontknow:. At any rate it would still be of concern to me as well so i've been thinking of solutions and thought maybe you could use somthing like cheese cloth to wrap the glass in the speakers in. I thought about the covering the port idea i mentiond earlier and thought that might really make a differance in the sound, I don't know the right answer but just some thoughts.:T


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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I can't believe it would be something as simple as that and I missed it completely:duh:, thanks Josuah now would it matter what type of fabric I wrap it in?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

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Ares said:


> I can't believe it would be something as simple as that and I missed it completely:duh:, thanks Josuah now would it matter what type of fabric I wrap it in?


WOW! how did he sneak that post in before me.:dumbcrazy:


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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bambino said:


> I'm with you Ares on the not so much concerned for yourself as you are the little one, i wonder if PSB wraps the subs fill with fabric because there is much more turbulance in it as opposed to the towers:dontknow:. At any rate it would still be of concern to me as well so i've been thinking of solutions and thought maybe you could use somthing like cheese cloth to wrap the glass in the speakers in. I thought about the covering the port idea i mentiond earlier and thought that might really make a differance in the sound, I don't know the right answer but just some thoughts.:T


Not sure about cheese cloth but it could work I also thought why not t-shirt cotton, that could be a reason why PSB wrapped the glass in the 6i plus there is another benefit that it has the glass is in the front half of the sub and both port tubes almost run the length of the 6i. No worries Bam your thoughts are always welcomed.:T


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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bambino said:


> WOW! how did he sneak that post in before me.:dumbcrazy:




I'm sneaky like a ninja.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

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:rofl:


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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I like the ideal of what Josuah suggested, to wrap the glass rolls in fabric since it would be easier and since it would be really cheap since the wife has yards of t-shirt cotton lying around the house which she uses to make pillows and such see Bam I to know something about going to the fabric store more than once. My question is would doing so mess with the enclosure's tuning?


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

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Maybe, maybe not. I take it you have had the speakers for a while, so you know what they sound like. Use the cloth, reassemble and listen. Who know, you make think they sound better.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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I was thinking of doing one T45 and leaving the other stock see if there would be any difference. Then I would go from there, I'm surprised I haven't heard from lsiberian he's really knowledgeable in this area.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

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Ares said:


> I was thinking of doing one T45 and leaving the other stock see if there would be any difference. Then I would go from there, I'm surprised I haven't heard from lsiberian he's really knowledgeable in this area.


Thats gotta be the best idea yet. Plus it gives you the oppurtunity to make another trip to the fabric store, LOL!:bigsmile:


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

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Bambino said, and I quote: "muslin is my fav fabric, it is like a coarse bed sheet and can be had in black from a fabric store, though I picked mine up at Joann's to cover my diy acoustic panels I'm working on" :rofl2:

I wouldn't recommend it on a port, but it should be good for containing the fiberglass.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

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ironglen said:


> Bambino said, and I quote: "muslin is my fav fabric, it is like a coarse bed sheet and can be had in black from a fabric store, though I picked mine up at Joann's to cover my diy acoustic panels I'm working on" :rofl2:
> 
> I wouldn't recommend it on a port, but it should be good for containing the fiberglass.


Come on Glen i thought we weren't gonna tell everyone which one is my favorite fabric:foottap:. How'd you know what Muslin is any ways?:heehee:


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

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bambino said:


> Come on Glen i thought we weren't gonna tell everyone which one is my favorite fabric:foottap:. How'd you know what Muslin is any ways?:heehee:


I was checking out fabrics for acoustic panel material and it came down to burlap, which has nice texture but a bit 'dirty' with lint, and muslin which is less coarse but seemed 'cleaner', so I picked some up. It is maybe 180 thread count, so not as smooth/sheen as a nice bedsheet. I actually sew a little bit:doh: I recently made a couple pet-beds for our new pit-bull from the shelter along with an extra thick comforter thing as he is already getting cold at 72 deg!

Anyways, the muslin is pretty cheap and I think fine enough to contain the fiberglass, plus it's black in case he runs the speaker without grills :T


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

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If you want burlap just PM your address and i'll send it to you we get burlap bags in at work all the time that the drivers hold there chains in for tieing down chassis.:sarcastic:
As far as bed sheets go i must have have 500 count or higher or i just don't get the beauty rest i need.:whistling:

OK, now back on topic, what did you ever figure out Ares?


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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I tried using the t-shirt fabric to cover the port of one of the T45's and the other left stock and then used a rubber band to hold it in place, well it didn't workout to well. Played some music in 2ch mode no sub, music chosen to play Duffy's Warwick Ave Wav. which is on my PS3's HDD now there was a clear difference between the two speakers, now the screened T45 made Duffy's voice for lack of a better word.. soulless here voice had no presence.

So after that failed attempt I thought why not try what Josuah suggested earlier and wrap the glass, went to go get some more t-shirt fabric and saw that my wife and her sewing club was using it Hmmmm what to do now. Looked in her sewing storage closet to try and find something and I came across some poly-batting I thought why not, got to work and one thing lead to another and this is how it ended up.










First woofer position as you can tell the glass is wrapped and the sidewalls lined and the port tube is wrapped, also the port tube opening is clear of any poly as well as a little section of the sidewall. (¼" Poly-Batting used)










2nd woofer's position some more wrapping and lining, if you look in the back you can see a cleared section the crossover sits underneath the bracing and wasn't to sure if I should cover that with poly. Many are wondering if removal of the glass was an option well it was til I found out they glued it really well to the walls so wrapping it was the easiest option at that point.

Now that one was done time to test it and make sure it doesn't sound horrible, same music but this time with a different result. The stock T45 sounded a little off to me not in a bad way, it seemed that the mid-range was slightly more present in the stock and adding the poly seem to tame it a little, which sounded more natural to me if that makes sense. I'm not sure how to explain it better than that but it accomplished what I wanted with an added benefit, I did the B15's and the C60 the 6i was left stock might consider doing something in the future but before that I will ask and show pics to get your guys opinions on what would work. Sorry about not taking pics of all the speakers being done, got caught up into the project that went into the wee hours since I started kinda late.:yawn:


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

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Glad to see everything went good, sounds like better then expected can't beat that.:sn:
Maybe you should put a comment into PSB about how you improved upon there design.:bigsmile:


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

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it worked....I was going to suggest old tube socks next...


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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bambino said:


> Glad to see everything went good, sounds like better then expected can't beat that.:sn:
> Maybe you should put a comment into PSB about how you improved upon there design.:bigsmile:


They may think I'm nuts for doing this, plus the slight improvement was an unintentional one but hey I'll take it, Thanks again Bam for your help. 





Andre said:


> it worked....I was going to suggest old tube socks next...


I'm glad it did on a side note if for whatever reason I need to pull the batting out I can since it's not glued into place. The sub may be on the hit list next so don't be surprised to see me asking for your guys help in the future, Thanks again Dre for yor your help.
​
​


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

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Ares said:


> I opened the first speaker up and to my surprise they used fiberglass as stuffing there is nothing covering it to keep fibers from moving around which concerns me so I got suited up just to get some toys out of my speakers. I would like to remove the fiberglass and replace it with polyfill if I do this would it have an adverse affect on my speakers?
> 
> Thank You
> 
> Tony.


Late to the party, but I'm surprised no one has linked this yet: Acoustic Material Absorption Coefficients.

Replacing the glass with poly of a similar density isn't going to make a huge difference.


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## Ares (Nov 23, 2009)

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Thanks AX9 and no worries.


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