# center channel



## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Hey guys !!

I want to know if I build a center channel using the components out of a VR2 tower would it make a diffrence?
I have VR3s mains, VR920 center and VRX surrounds.


I can purchase the parts for the VR2 or buy the complete speaker, either way I have to build the box because the tower is to tall to be place in front of the screen.

I have 24" from the floor to the bottom of the screen.

which way should I build it, like a tower or a center channel?

how wide the box needs to be if I build it like a tower?


THANKS!!!!

VR2










8 ohms
Frequency Response (3dB)
41Hz-20kHz
Bass Unit
Dual 6-1/2" (165mm) copolymer
Midrange
4-1/2" (115mm)neodymium copolymer
Crossover Frequency
400, 2800Hz
Dimensions (HxWxD)
38 x 9 x 11-1/2" (966 x 229 x 293mm)
Sensitivity (1 watt (2.83v) at 1m)
93dB
Tweeter
1" (25mm) VRH.O.™ anodized aluminum dome with AMD™

My current center speakers is a Boston VR920









Frequency Response (±3dB) 55–20,000Hz
Recommended Amplifier Power 15–250 watts
Nominal Impedance 8 ohms 
sensitivity [1 watt (2.83v) at 1m] 90dB
Bass Unit dual 51⁄4 x 71⁄2" (135 x 191mm)
Midrange – 31⁄2" (89mm)
Tweeter (metal dome) 1" (25mm)
Crossover Frequency 300, 2,700Hz
Dimensions (HxWxD) 6 3⁄4 x 27 1⁄8 x 10 1⁄4"
(172 x 689 x 261mm)


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## brent_s (Feb 26, 2007)

I don't think I'd do it.

If BA did their job correctly, the crossover in the VR2 is optimized for that baffle size and driver orientation/spacing. Similarly, your VR920 should have been optimized for its orientation. 

Using a speaker designed for vertical placement horizontally can sound ok on axis, but moving off to the left or right will generally quickly degrade the quality as you introduce comb filtering and lobing.

-Brent


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Rodny Alvarez said:


> I want to know if I build a center channel using the components out of a VR2 tower would it make a diffrence?


If it uses better drivers than your current CC and it if uses the same drivers and crossover config of your towers it will be likely be a better voice match with them.


> which way should I build it, like a tower or a center channel?


Either way will work but stricltly for looks I would use the same driver layout as the VR920 but the crossover may need tweeking if this is done.


> how wide the box needs to be if I build it like a tower?


the width of the box should not be changed much as the crossover has been optimised for that width.iYou can however change the height and depth but keep in mind that the enclosure needs to have the same internal volume if you intend to have the same bass extension as originally intended.


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

brent_s said:


> Using a speaker designed for vertical placement horizontally can sound ok on axis, but moving off to the left or right will generally quickly degrade the quality as you introduce comb filtering and lobing.
> 
> -Brent


Good points but this is more of an issue when using an MTM that crosses over at 2k ish.If he built it with the tweeter above the mid and placed the woofers close to either side then lobing should not vbe an issue as the woofers crossover to the mids at 400hz.The wider baffle may accentuate the lower mids though.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

F1 fan said:


> If it uses better drivers than your current CC and it if uses the same drivers and crossover config of your towers it will be likely be a better voice match with them.Either way will work but stricltly for looks I would use the same driver layout as the VR920 but the crossover may need tweeking if this is done.the width of the box should not be changed much as the crossover has been optimised for that width.iYou can however change the height and depth but keep in mind that the enclosure needs to have the same internal volume if you intend to have the same bass extension as originally intended.



I understand that I need to build the box with the same air space and I think the drivers will fit vertical just like the tower, It would be deeper but not as tall (24" tall) 

The air space its about 1.5 to 1.75 cft, not really sure but I probably be able to get the exact internal dimensions from a tech @ boston or my body Sonnie :bigsmile:


(crossover may need tweaking) How can I do that if I build it like my cc ?

The width is 9", can I go 10" or 11"?

The port its on the rear, so how much room from the port to the wall?

Vertical or horizontal, which one is better? 

Thanks!!!:T


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I think it would work as long as you keep the front width the same and the volume for each driver the same by extending the depth. 

The question might be can you close the gap from top to bottom without any negative effects.


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## Geoff St. Germain (Dec 18, 2006)

If I really wanted to use the VR2 and had to make it fit below 24" I'd look at building an enclosure that was the same volume and width as the stock enclosure but is 24" high and the appropriate depth.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> The question might be can you close the gap from top to bottom without any negative effects.


:scratch:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

The spacing between the drivers.


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Rodny Alvarez said:


> (crossover may need tweaking) How can I do that if I build it like my cc ?


 The original crossover was optimised for the 9" baffle width.If you where to configure the the drivers as in the VR920 the width of baffle would be quite a bit wider.This could result in the lower mids and upper bass getting some added boost do to the bigger horizontal surface area.If one was inclined they could try and rebalance the response with a crossover change.However if you where to build the vertical version and placed it very close to the wall behind you would also get the same accentuated lower mid upper bass as well.So positioning in relation to the rear wall will have an affect,maybe even more so than the differences between the horizontal or vertical config.




> The port its on the rear, so how much room from the port to the wall?


Atleast the distance equal to the ports diameter.You could also locate the port on a side if you wanted to get it closer to the wall.



> Vertical or horizontal, which one is better?


IMO :bigsmile:if it will be placed close to the back wall then I don't think there will be a signifcant difference.If it will be out from the wall 2' or more then the vertical design woiuld be the best bet.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> The spacing between the drivers.


OK!!

I think the vertical setup its better that way I don't have to fix the crossover.

Do I need to angle the box so the tweeter and mid range be firing at ear level?

What will happen if the bottom driver is close to the floor?

I measure the external dimension just to give me an idea on the air space and is 1.58cft (38 x 9 x 11-1/2" ) if I change it to 22x9x19-1/2 the volume is 1.60 cft.


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Rodny Alvarez said:


> Do I need to angle the box so the tweeter and mid range be firing at ear level?


Yes. 



> What will happen if the bottom driver is close to the floor?


It will get abit of reinforcement because of its close proximity.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

F1 fan said:


> It will get abit of reinforcement because of its close proximity.


Is this something to worry about ?


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Rodny Alvarez said:


> Is this something to worry about ?


No.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Thanks Fred!!:T


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Rodny Alvarez said:


> Thanks Fred!!:T


Your welcome Rodny and good luck on your project. I know that with your skills building the enclosure will be a piece of cake.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

This is one idea....


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)




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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Geoff St. Germain said:


> If I really wanted to use the VR2 and had to make it fit below 24" I'd look at building an enclosure that was the same volume and width as the stock enclosure but is 24" high and the appropriate depth.


Me, too. No good reason for a horizontal center channel speaker if you can do better.

Kal


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

:T


Rodny Alvarez said:


> This is one idea....
> 
> 
> View attachment 4840


I like this one.I assume for clarities sake you don't show any internal bracing.:bigsmile:


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

F1 fan said:


> :TI like this one.I assume for clarities sake you don't show any internal bracing.:bigsmile:


I don't know the internal setup of the VR2, so when I open one I will know how many dividers and braces to use!:bigsmile:
I think the best choice for me is to buy the VR2 complete, I'll take out all the guts and trash the box.


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

At the very least the midrange will likey have its own sealed enclosure.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Do I need to angle the 6 1/2's or can I just angle the midrange and tweeter only?

:bigsmile:


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Rodny Alvarez said:


> or just angle the midrange and tweeter only?
> 
> :bigsmile:


That should be fine as they are the important ones.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

The VR2 should be here in about 2 weeks. 

I think its going to be something like this.......


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Boston Acoustics should hire you to design their center speakers... :T


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Random stuff:

You're going to recycle the crossover of the tower speaker in your center speaker? If so, you probably shouldn't angle the baffle as you have it. That crossover is specific to a flat front baffle. As such, it phase aligns the drivers. I would just angle the whole box.

You're going to have the speaker laying on the floor? I'm not sure how well that's going to go -- Fred doesn't seem to think it'll be an issue, but I'm worried they might boom a little..

JCD


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

As usual you bring up some good points.


JCD said:


> You're going to recycle the crossover of the tower speaker in your center speaker?


He is.


> If so, you probably shouldn't angle the baffle as you have it. That crossover is specific to a flat front baffle. As such, it phase aligns the drivers. I would just angle the whole box.


With the crossover between the midrange and woofers occuring at 400hz I don't think it will matter.The wavelength at 400hz is roughly 35" so the relatively small change in distance should not affect the phase relationship between the woofers and mid.



> but I'm worried they might boom a little..


 It will get some boost from the floor but will it be boomy?hard to say, the only way to know is by trying it in that location.I guess if it was a bit bass heavy he does have the option (if he is not already planning to) to use his bass mangement and allow his sub to handle the bass duties.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

All the speakers are set to small on the receiver and the sub crossover set to 80hz.
I don't think the angle its going to be that much.
I cant wait to start the project, the mains and the center will be bi-amp, 125 watts + 125 watts:bigsmile:

Thanks!!:T


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I figured you'd already have this done... :dontknow:


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

It takes about two weeks for the speaker to arrive:crying:, hopefully the week after thanksgiving!


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## Wildcard26 (May 22, 2007)

I can't wait to see how this project turns out since I have this new found interest in CC. Keep us posted please with pics.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

The speaker arrived today and it's already in pieces, I will start on the project next week, here are some pics of the VR2.........


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I can't believe you gonna put it off until next week. :whistling:


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## Wildcard26 (May 22, 2007)

Looks like a murder scene...  Can't wait for the out come.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

I have a question about the width of the cabinet, the original is 9" wide and I want to know if 10" would make a difference??

Thanks!!:T


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

F1 fan said:


> Atleast the distance equal to the ports diameter.You could also locate the port on a side if you wanted to get it closer to the wall.


 So placing the port on the side its OK???


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Rodny Alvarez said:


> So placing the port on the side its OK???


Sure as long as it has clearance from the opposite side approximately equal to its diameter.Also it should if possible have the same clearance from the bottom,front ,back panel ,braces etc.

Increasing the width by an inch should be fine especially so if you plan to round over the edges of the front baffle.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

The front baffle has a small lip on the sides (1/2") for the grill to be flush, do you think this would be a problem?
I want to build the cabinet where it will look similar to the towers! 

Thanks!!


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Rodny Alvarez said:


> The front baffle has a small lip on the sides (1/2") for the grill to be flush, do you think this would be a problem?


Yes if used without the grille in place.A protruding edges like that can cause diffraction problems with the tweeter.I suspect they have mounted the tweeter or contoured the grille(or both) in such a away as to avoid this.
Oddly it appears from the pic's that the midrange does not have its own enclosure?:huh:


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

The 4" midrange had an enclosure it was a 4" pipe that I removed.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

I started the box today and decided not to angle the box, the front panel will be dual 5/8", I was going to use veneer but change my mind and it's going to be texture and black paint.:bigsmile:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Looking good like it should... :T


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## Geoff St. Germain (Dec 18, 2006)

Looks good. Are you going to recess the drivers? The frame shape makes doing it a lot more work than circular frames.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Geoff St. Germain said:


> Looks good. Are you going to recess the drivers? The frame shape makes doing it a lot more work than circular frames.


Yes!!
My plan is to make a template so I can use the router.

Thanks!!:T


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## Wildcard26 (May 22, 2007)

Let me get this straight please, this is is an upright Center Channel, like just a smaller version of you mains? Nice job, I would like to see it in place and about reports on this.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Wildcard26 said:


> Let me get this straight please, this is is an upright Center Channel, like just a smaller version of you mains? .


 Yes!!

The original tower 1.5cft and the one I'm building has 1.65 but I have more braces and build a box for the 4" and tweeter, the factory had a 5" x 8 pipe for the 4" enclosure:thumbsdown:, the front will have two pieces of 5/8.:bigsmile:


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## Wildcard26 (May 22, 2007)

Ok now I get it. Would the fact that it's upright make it perform better? I really want to see the whole thing together when you are done.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Wildcard26 said:


> Ok now I get it. Would the fact that it's upright make it perform better? I really want to see the whole thing together when you are done.


The short answer is "Yes".

The long answer is here..

JCD


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

I'm thinking on using black ash veneer on the box, where can I get some veneer or the imitation(vinyl) 
Thanks!!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

You might want to ask that in a new thread so that it gets more attention. :T

With the discovery of the cardboard you told me about on the phone today, I think I would check the VR3's out... if they have it too, you may want to rebuild those cabinets... then just paint them all like you did my Behemoth. :bigsmile:


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Some places I've found veneer on the internet..

Link 1
Link 2 -- Also has some articles on how to..
Link 3
Lnk 4
Link 5

I haven't used any of them as I've got a friend who gives me some from projects he's working on (he's a cabinent maker).


JCD


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## 1Michael (Nov 2, 2006)

I can recommend tapeease.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Thank you guys!!!!!:T


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## Jason Schultz (Jul 31, 2007)

Hi Rodney
Your cabinets look good and solid. I was wondering if those dimensions produce any resonances inside the cabinet. I've made a few cabinets over the years and I always found it a challenge to make a dead sounding box. when my cabinets were nearly completed I used to stick my head inside the woofer hole and sing up and down the scales to detect any audible resonance (Neighbours who could hear me thought I was a nut case) there would always be some resonance no matter how I filled the box .I used trial and error approach- very frustrating but eventually I got it right. sorry this could be a seperate thread. But making a dead box is worth the effort because no sound is reflected back into the cone to muddy the sound.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Jason Schultz said:


> I used to stick my head inside the woofer hole and sing up and down the scales to detect any audible resonance


First of all... his head is way to big... :R :dumbcrazy:

Secondly... he cannot sing...  :thud:

:rofl2: :rofl: 

Just couldn't resist. :devil:


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> First of all... his head is way to big... :R :dumbcrazy:
> 
> Secondly... he cannot sing...  :thud:
> 
> ...


:boxer:


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

I haven't have time to put my BIG head inside and sing:bigsmile:,


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## Wildcard26 (May 22, 2007)

So, what's the up date on this project. I would really like to see how it came out and it in place, if you don't mind. I would appreciate it thank you.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

To much work!!:gah:

I'm going to finish the project:yes:

I will post as soon as I work on it:T


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Anybody use this product??

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=261-610

Thanks!!!:T


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I haven't used that --probably a bit of an elitist as I've only used veneer in the past.

That being said, I'm just going to paint the MDF whenever I can find the time to finish my line arrays.

JCD


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## Wildcard26 (May 22, 2007)

I used this. Good product. The Cream coloured on seems to have a fake wood grain print. The Black would produce some good results. I used Red Maple and I can't say I did the best job but this was the result.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Your speakers look pretty good!!:T

I think I'm going to order the material, my Boston's have a similar finish(fake black ash), if it doesn't work I just paint the center:bigsmile:


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## Brian Bunge (Apr 21, 2006)

I've used the black ash vinyl for a customer once. It doesn't look too bad once you actually apply it to the cabinet.


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## Wildcard26 (May 22, 2007)

It's very strong and easy to work with. The Sub on top is my Dad's and he had fun with it. My Sub if you can see it in the left corner just has the top covered as an afterthought and still came out great.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Brian Bunge said:


> I've used the black ash vinyl for a customer once. It doesn't look too bad once you actually apply it to the cabinet.


Thanks Brian!!!

I ordered this morning, should be here by Friday :T


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## Brian Bunge (Apr 21, 2006)

Cool Rodny. Let me know how you like it. We actually used it on 6 line array cabinets for a guy in Atlanta, of all things. He just wanted a cheap black finish over the MDF and he paid for the stuff so we put it on there. Just make sure you have all the dust off of the cabinets because small clumps can get stuck to the back of the vinyl and telegraph through to the outside.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

when I talked to the girl at parts express I told her that want it deliver it to the shop not house, came home tonight and there was the vinyl:gah: and its not the black ash:hissyfit: regular texture:wits-end:, so I don't know what I'm going to do, use that one or call them so they can send me the black ash.



here are some pics of the progress I made today................










































I cut the factory grill and super glue a piece of wood on the end:bigsmile:








It will be covered with speaker grill cloth!


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## Wildcard26 (May 22, 2007)

I like it, I just like it...I don't care what it's covered with....Can't wait to see it.....Almost feel like it's my project....Better go start work on my evil twin to my Sub, driver was ordered but has not arrived yet.......Great work Rodny.


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## Brian Bunge (Apr 21, 2006)

Rodny,

Well, that sucks! That's why I always just order my parts through the website. Only once have I been sent the wrong part and that was just the wrong binding posts in a big order.

I love the cabinet though. Wow. Just wow. I've got to ask a dumb question though. With your superior cabinetry skills, why aren't you building some of the excellent DIY designs you there? You would get SOOOO much for your money.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Thanks!!

I've been thinking about building some WWMT and WMTW for my room.

I have a template for the curve cabinets, they are so pretty:daydream:

:spend::spendo you know of any other design that it wont cost so much:bigsmile:, Craig @ selah audio charge me $1100 for the kit with the seas tweeters, I don't know if I want to spend that much for now.


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## Brian Bunge (Apr 21, 2006)

I know Rick does really good work. That being said, all the designs at HTGuide don't cost you any more than the price of the actual components. I don't know the actual costs, but I'm sure the TMWW design using a pair of RS225's, an RS150 and the RS28a, Seas 27TDFC or 27TBFC/G tweeters would come in well under $1K. After all, I've got about $1000 or so in just the components (not including cabinets) for my large 3-ways and their crossovers are much more complex.


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## Geoff St. Germain (Dec 18, 2006)

Brian Bunge said:


> I know Rick does really good work. That being said, all the designs at HTGuide don't cost you any more than the price of the actual components. I don't know the actual costs, but I'm sure the TMWW design using a pair of RS225's, an RS150 and the RS28a, Seas 27TDFC or 27TBFC/G tweeters would come in well under $1K. After all, I've got about $1000 or so in just the components (not including cabinets) for my large 3-ways and their crossovers are much more complex.


I just ordered all of the components for two pairs of the RS WWMT towers and it came to about $1200 shipped and it included some more expensive components than what is actually needed (like binding posts and binding post plates). With decent materials for the cabinet you should be able to build a pair for ~$750 I would guess.


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## Brian Bunge (Apr 21, 2006)

Sometimes I forget my dealer discount pricing too. That's saved me a few bucks in the past, especially on the Dayton drivers.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

My homeboy knows how to build stuff... he never ceases to amaze me. :T


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Awesome work.:T


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Geoff St. Germain said:


> I just ordered all of the components for two pairs of the RS WWMT towers and it came to about $1200 shipped and it included some more expensive components than what is actually needed (like binding posts and binding post plates). With decent materials for the cabinet you should be able to build a pair for ~$750 I would guess.


From where??:bigsmile:


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

OK!!

I end up using the texture material, call parts express this morning and the guy told me he was going to send me a roll of the black Ash at no charge:yay:, and told me to keep the one I have for free:jiggy:, so I used that one for now.

It has some minor imperfections but I will fix it when I get my other material.

Here some more pics....

Thanks for all the help!!!!!!!!!!!:T:T:T


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## Geoff St. Germain (Dec 18, 2006)

Looks awesome Rodny! Can you take a shot of it next to one of the full height towers?


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Geoff St. Germain said:


> Looks awesome Rodny! Can you take a shot of it next to one of the full height towers?


:T


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## Geoff St. Germain (Dec 18, 2006)

:T

Good stuff!


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## Bent (May 24, 2006)

Wow - a veritable silk purse from a sow's ear
(well, you get the idea)


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Bravo! Excellent! 

How does it sound? Can you tell a difference between it and the other center?


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Just one word...


Wow!

Awesome job.

Ok, that's three words.

JCD


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## Wildcard26 (May 22, 2007)

Love it man love it. I couldn't wait for this to be done but just a superb job. Now hows about a review.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Turn it on last night an JCD was right its boomy with the speaker so close to the floor, I have my 3sixty.2 hookup so I EQ the three main speakers, the center has some peaks from 100 to about 300 but I fix it with the EQ:bigsmile:, after eqing the center the sound and imaging is a lot better, it blends well with the mains, I would have to say that the speaker being vertical help the stage and imaging:yes:, but definitely the speaker being so close to the floor will affect the sound!!

I was thinking about plug the port to see if there is any difference, but I don't know if this would affect something else since I guess the crossover its design for a ported enclosure:dontknow:


I would play with it some time today or tomorrow.

I'm pretty exited abut building other speakers, I had fun doing this project, I don't have all the tools that I need so its time for some new tools:spend:, The vinyl was a little frustrating but is like anything else PRACTICE! PRACTICE! PRACTICE!:dumbcrazy:.

I would have to say that having the right tools will make the difference!!!!

:T


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## Bent (May 24, 2006)

Plugging the port shouldn't affect the sound at the crossover freq at all - the port is for the low end and the crossover engages at a higher frequency. I say plug the port and try it out.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Thanks Ben!!:T

Will do!!


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## Brian Bunge (Apr 21, 2006)

Yep, Bent is right! Plug away!

Looks great, BTW!

Oh, and I like the texture better than the black ash. You should re-finish your towers with it!


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## Jason Schultz (Jul 31, 2007)

Looks like an awsome home theatre Rodney. wish i could hear it.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Jason Schultz said:


> Looks like an awsome home theatre Rodney. wish i could hear it.


Thanks Jason!!!

Just get on a plane and come over!!:bigsmile:


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