# sub dilemma



## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

Hey guys needs some advice on what to do. I purchased a lava lsp 12 for 288. I like the sub, but I was wanting a little more punch. I was thinking about getting another one to maybe help balance out the room because it sounds better at different listening locations(I am limited to it facing me). I see that outlaw has the lfm 1 plus on sale for 499 with free shipping. So my question is should I return the lava and get the outlaw or get another lava to balance out room response? My room is 17x15 with vaulted ceiling that opens into a 15x11x8 kitchen.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

With only one sub you will have nulls at various spots in the room. My suggestion would be to grab another sub and do some testing/positioning at different spots in the room to find out what works best.:T


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

I would return the Lava. Subs are meant to dig low, something the Outlaw does better. Then save up for a second LFM 1, wouldn't you rather have two of those instead? :bigsmile:


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## TheLaw612 (Jan 17, 2012)

I've got to agree with tesseract. Return the Lava and grab the lfm plus. It has more output and digs a lot deeper with more quality bass. My buddy has the Lava and while it's a good budget sub, the lfm plus is much better and of you can afford to get it, go for it.


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## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks guys for the input. Would a second lava do more to deal with nulls in the room. Or would the outlaw, because of the increased output, eliminate alot of them?


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

park41 - You have a pretty big space to fill. Given a choice, I wouldn't even try to fill that space with two Lava's. The Outlaw will give you at least twice as much output below 30 Hz, probably more. I recommend getting one now and save for a second one next time the sale hits.

Have you measured your room response? If so, where do the problem nulls lie?


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## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

I haven't done any measurements. I have the sub too the right of my av stand, which is also at the lowest point of my ceiling. The bass is good there, I also tried the sub to the left of my stand, which is toward the tallest part of my ceiling and the bass decreases, which I guess makes sense. I also have the sub gain at the 1o clock position in order to get any thump out of it. Is the this running the sub hot?


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

1 o'clock is at the edge, but as long as the sub driver isn't making untoward noises and the amp remains a reasonable temperature I think it will be fine.

You may be pushing the gain in an attempt to get bass that isn't there, the Lava rolls off pretty heavily below 30 Hz. The Lava sub is decent for the price, but an Outlaw it is not. I would rather have one LFM-1 than two LSP12's.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

I have to disagree, I would rather have 2 Outlaw LFM-1 subs over 2 Lava subs but if the choice is 1 Outlaw over 2 Lava's then I would go with the 2 subs every day. 

While I agree that a sub that goes low is preferable your not going to get a bottom dweller at under $500 unless you go DIY. I don't see were the specs of the Outlaw demolish the Lava and if there are comparison reviews then please point them out. 

The truth is you are going to get more even response at the MLP with multiple subs 9 times out of 10 than with a single sub.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

park41 said:


> Thanks guys for the input. Would a second lava do more to deal with nulls in the room. Or would the outlaw, because of the increased output, eliminate alot of them?


Increasing the output at a single location does not deal with room nulls. A 6db dip at 40hz will still be there regardless of what sub you use. There may be a location in your room that has a better response, only moving it around the room and testing will tell you that. Multiple subs usually help a lot but placement is still key to get good room response.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

sub_crazy said:


> I have to disagree, I would rather have 2 Outlaw LFM-1 subs over 2 Lava subs but if the choice is 1 Outlaw over 2 Lava's then I would go with the 2 subs every day.


The Lava is being pushed to it's limit. Since park41 can return the Lava, why not get a more capable sub and save for another?



> While I agree that a sub that goes low is preferable your not going to get a bottom dweller at under $500 unless you go DIY. I don't see were the specs of the Outlaw demolish the Lava and if there are comparison reviews then please point them out.


Not a comparison, but should make the point.

LSP12:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-reviews/37245-lava-lsp12-subwoofer-review.html
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/lsp12-subwoofer

LFM-1 Plus:
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/outlaw_lfm1.htm




> The truth is you are going to get more even response at the MLP with multiple subs 9 times out of 10 than with a single sub.


Not necessarily, a single sub can be EQ'ed flat at the MLP, too. Dual subs that are not properly integrated can exacerbate problems. 

The OP wants to smooth the response across several listening positions, which is the main benefit of multiple subs. It sounds like he needs more output down low, too.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

tesseract said:


> The Lava is being pushed to it's limit. Since park41 can return the Lava, why not get a more capable sub and save for another?


I actually have a Lava, I did win it in the contest but can honestly say that it is a capable sub for it's price of under $340. Sure it doesn't compare to my 18" Mael-X or the 21" either but those drivers cost more than Lava by-itself. I honestly am impressed by the Lava and I am not just saying that because I won one.




> No direct comparison reviews, but plenty demonstrating the large difference in low frequency output. Here are but two.
> 
> http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/lsp12-subwoofer
> http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/lfm-1-ex-review


But that is the EX which is $649, not the plus version which the OP is interested in on sale for $499. 




> Not necessarily, a single sub can be EQ'ed flat at the MLP, too. Dual subs that are not properly integrated can exacerbate problems.


You can't get rid of a null with EQ, you can try but your actually causing more problems by trying to boost a null. A null is room associated and if your sitting in the null then you must find a new location in either the MLP or the sub it-self to properly get rid of a null. 



> The OP wants to smooth the response across several listening positions, which is the main benefit of multiple subs. It sounds like he needs more output down low, too.


If he wants to spend the extra money then by all means I think the Outlaw would be a better solution. I just think for his particular problem that adding an second sub would help fix the problem at hand than just replacing a single sub with a more powerful one. His problem is that he has a null at his MLP and a more powerful sub will not alleviate that unless he experiment's with different locations for the sub. If the OP's budget is only about $600 I still contend that a second Lava would be better than a single Outlaw. If he can stretch his budget to $1000 then I agree with you the Outlaw would be the better choice. , if he can stretch his budget to $3000 + some DIY labor than a pair of LMS Ultra 18" and a clone amp will demolish nearly any sub out there.

I don't want to seem like I am being stubborn, the OP just mentioned getting rid of nulls in his room and the solution to that is not a more powerful sub in the same location.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

Now that I think about it there is no reason the OP can't add a Outlaw LFM-1 to his Lava sub, they don't necessarily have to be the same sub to work together. The best solution is always the same subs but I have been able to integrate different subs with no problem. Actually one of the best sub demo's I had was right after I moved the only 2 subs I could get up and running right away was the Mael-X 21" sealed and the Lava LSP12 since it was the only commercial sub I had on hand at the time. Sure the 21" is what shook the floor but the Lava did add some nice mid-bass to the mix in my big 28' X 14' room. 

The OP would be saving $210 by mixing subs and would have better integration with the room and a lower overall response. If he has the extra $210 than by all means, send back the Lava and get a pair of Outlaw subs.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

sub_crazy said:


> But that is the EX which is $649, not the plus version which the OP is interested in on sale for $499.


Thanks, I caught that and edited, must have been while you were typing your response.



> You can't get rid of a null with EQ, you can try but your actually causing more problems by trying to boost a null. A null is room associated and if your sitting in the null then you must find a new location in either the MLP or the sub it-self to properly get rid of a null.


The OP reports good response at the MLP, depending upon where he placed the sub. Agreed, EQ'ing a sharp null is futile.



> I don't want to seem like I am being stubborn, the OP just mentioned getting rid of nulls in his room and the solution to that is not a more powerful sub in the same location.


No problem, we are just discussing different points of view. Ideally, I am suggesting two identical subs. I just feel that if you are going to go this far into the hobby, by adding multiple subs, go for the gusto and get a solid LF foundation.



> Now that I think about it there is no reason the OP can't add a Outlaw LFM-1 to his Lava sub, they don't necessarily have to be the same sub to work together. The best solution is always the same subs but I have been able to integrate different subs with no problem. Actually one of the best sub demo's I had was right after I moved the only 2 subs I could get up and running right away was the Mael-X 21" sealed and the Lava LSP12 since it was the only commercial sub I had on hand at the time. Sure the 21" is what shook the floor but the Lava did add some nice mid-bass to the mix in my big 28' X 14' room.
> 
> The OP would be saving $210 by mixing subs and would have better integration with the room and a lower overall response. If he has the extra $210 than by all means, send back the Lava and get a pair of Outlaw subs.


This might be feasible, but I think we agree that dual Outlaws would be best. If the OP is happy with the sound of the single Lava, and money is a consideration, adding another LSP12 would save the most and be the way to go.


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## park41 (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks for info, you've given me alot to think about and taught me some things. Also , the lava I have tends to vibrate things pretty well, including pictures air return vent and metal over fireplace. Would something like a subdude or any other isolator help in reducing these vibrations?


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

My listening room is over suspended flooring, vibrations travel through the floor, into the walls and throughout the house. SubDudes under my subs helped reduce this greatly.


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## Driver_King (Sep 19, 2009)

Isolating and raising a subwoofer off the ground is one of the most underestimated tweaks you may do to improve the overall performance of the subwoofer. Quite frankly, if you're still at odds between dual vs one sub, I personally would recommend dual subwoofers first. It wouldn't be horrible to consider, once you save the money to buy a better subwoofer (or two) to replace the dual subs you have. Dual subs, when appropriately integrated, can easily provide a greater improvement over a single subwoofer's improved bass extension, in most cases, when nulls are playing into the issue.


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