# GIK Acoustics DIY Acoustical Panel Build Thread



## AudiocRaver

*DIY Panels from GIK*

A funny thing happened at RMAF. I was talking with Glenn and Shelly from GIK about their new DIY panel kits, and commented that they were exactly what I need to finish my front wall. Then Glenn offered to send me panels for the purpose if I would review them.

Naturally I said YES!

They just arrived. I will chronicle the experience.


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## DqMcClain

Just checked out the GIK website for info on these... There's about a 100% chance I'll be buying those frames for my HT. Can't wait to hear your review!


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## NBPk402

Do you know if they are going to be offering the diffuser slats(Alpha Series) as a kit too?


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## tboooe

I assume you are referring to the DIY frames? I just checked the GIK website and it seems they are not offering the Monster Bass Trap frame? At only 4" thick the DIY frame is not quite thick enough for me to use it as a bass trap. Too bad.


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## DqMcClain

tboooe said:


> I assume you are referring to the DIY frames? I just checked the GIK website and it seems they are not offering the Monster Bass Trap frame? At only 4" thick the DIY frame is not quite thick enough for me to use it as a bass trap. Too bad.


From what I saw, that's the way it looks. There just might not be any convenient way to make a bass trap as a flat-pack item... OR maybe we're just talking ahead of the release of that item. That would be nice.


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## Todd Anderson

Popcorn is ready.

Let's get this going! ;-)


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## AudiocRaver

What I was sent is 4 of the 2 ft x 4 ft x 4 in frames, plus fabric to cover them with (Guilford of Maine - Aquamarine), plus 6 pieces of Knauf board. The Knauf board comes 6 to a package, they would normally be used 2 per panel, but there was discussion about the extra shipping cost and I am only going to be using 4 of them anyway, thus the 6 pieces instead of 8.

Although my traps are not going to be official "Bass Traps," as you will soon see, the final result will have some bass-trap-ISH characteristics.

I will get some photos loaded today.


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## AudiocRaver

The primary purpose of the front of room panels in my room will be:

Eliminate reflections that disrupt soundstage and imaging (SS&I).
Optionally include controlled diffusion. 
Dampen LF reflections and standing waves that involve the front wall.


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## Savjac

Anxiously awaiting the photographs, as Todd mentioned, popcorn in hand.


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## Tonto

Hello Jack, haven't heard from you in a while! Glad to see you posting again. How have you been? Seems like the last thing I remember, you were toying around with some surround speakers for your room. How did that ever go?


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## Savjac

Tonto said:


> Hello Jack, haven't heard from you in a while! Glad to see you posting again. How have you been? Seems like the last thing I remember, you were toying around with some surround speakers for your room. How did that ever go?


Thank You for the welcome back, I will be posting again. Indeed I was toying around with speakers in the room but once we spent all that dough on a fence, tires for my car and repair of my wife's suv and some further medical bills, I kind of lost my mojo. So I stopped on the surround stuff and even the home theater room. I am still watching and listening but have done very little to the room. I hope to get back full steam as several issues have come to mind. I will start proper threads in due course.

As far as this topic, I have been experimenting with some raw knauf sections to see what would happen as without thee framework they are kinda easy to move. Placing panels behind the speakers and in corners really helps with taming bass but might otherwise deaden my room too much....we shall see.


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## Tonto

You are very welcome Jack, & again, it is good to have you back. Hope the medical bills we not serious. As far as progress goes, mine has pretty much come to a halt as well. But I will get there eventually.

I have come to believe that a good amount of diffusion is just as important as absorption. If not more so. I think it was Talley that started me researching the absorption vs diffusion patterns. You will need at least 4 feet between it and the plp to be effective.


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## AudiocRaver

First, proof of concept. This is ugly, I will warn you.

Dennis - Tesseract - has seen it and heard it, and we have discussed it and he does not agree 100% with certain aspects of the approach. I respect his views and experience immensely but it has become an _Agree To Disagree_ situation. I personally have no problem with that, and expect others might disagree with parts of the approach as well.









What you see is UltraTouch Denim Insulation by Bonded Logic, made from recycled denim for general insulation purposes and for sound absorption and insulation. It is easy to handle, NO ITCH! It is easy to cut or tear by hand. It is quite dense and has good acoustical absorptive properties, although its dense, fairly flat surface is not without some reflections at mid and high frequencies.

There are four columns of the stuff, basically propped up and held in place with boards and whatever. Each of these will be replaced by a GIK panel when the project is done. Notice that the four columns are standing at angles, the two on the left are angled toward the left and the two on the right are angled to the right. This is an important part of the design.

Outside of those columns of insulation are two custom reflectors which I suspect will be of no interest to anyone.:heehee:


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## AudiocRaver

I see that between Savjac and Tonto there is already some discussion about diffusion vs. absorption. Tesseract and I have had that discussion as well. This ain't the last we will hear of it, I am sure.

Here is my condensed view of the matter.

*
A certain amount of diffusion, which helps produce spaciousness, is a good thing, as long as it does not negatively impact soundstage and imaging (SS&I).
Where diffusion can not be controlled in a way that preserves SS&I, absorption is probably necessary.
Where there is a conflict between the two, SS&I wins over spaciousness.
*
These fun little rules of thumb that I live by are very certainly dependent on listener preference. However, listener preference is also very certainly dependent on personal experience.


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## Savjac

I do believe for the most part you are correct good sir.
However may I put forth a couple of thoughts herein ?

1) Personally I tend to use the word Soundspace in these discussions because for me, spaciousness, imaging and soundstage are all part of the soundspace being reproduced in our respective rooms. In working with one aspect of a Soundspace all other aspects should be included.

2)Whether diffusion or absorption is used, it should be done to bring the Soundspace into fruition as best as we know it.

3) I understand you point here and it is well taken and frankly I used to think the exact same way. Of late however, I keep going back to the Soundspace presentation as one entity that should encompass the three points you discuss, with no real emphasis on any one. 

You are simply correct that this is listener dependent. I look at a musical event that is presented as a whole both live and as reproduced in the home. I would never think of going to a live concert at say Orchestra Hall and saying the performance was good but that soundstage was not right. 

At least this makes sense to me. Its kind of like the image attached, there is just something missing from the original.



AudiocRaver said:


> I see that between Savjac and Tonto there is already some discussion about diffusion vs. absorption. Tesseract and I have had that discussion as well. This ain't the last we will hear of it, I am sure.
> 
> Here is my condensed view of the matter.
> 
> *
> A certain amount of diffusion, which helps produce spaciousness, is a good thing, as long as it does not negatively impact soundstage and imaging (SS&I).
> Where diffusion can not be controlled in a way that preserves SS&I, absorption is probably necessary.
> Where there is a conflict between the two, SS&I wins over spaciousness.
> *
> These fun little rules of thumb that I live by are very certainly dependent on listener preference. However, listener preference is also very certainly dependent on personal experience.


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## AudiocRaver

As always, Jack, I appreciate your perspective. I will add a couple more detailed thoughts that might clarify my own a little, and I believe are compatible with yours, too.

Crisp, sharp imaging, or the lack thereof, is highly dependent on the recording and mixing methods used for a given track. If image clarity and sharpness is not "in the mix," it is gone and cannot be recovered. A recording that was created with image clarity and sharpness in the mix can be reproduced in a listening room to be every bit as sharp and clear, with proper care.

Spaciousness is a little hard to define because it can come from different sources. It can include the sound of a concert hall that an orchestra is recorded in. Being part of the recording, one is kinda stuck with it. Depending on recording and mixing methods, that recorded spaciousness might or might not detract from the sharpness of the imaging in that recording.

Attempts to enhance a recording's spaciousness in one's listening room can be very pleasing and can do so without dulling or detracting from that image clarity, or approached differently, they can be very disruptive to image clarity.

My own listening preference leans toward tracks that have the sharpest, clearest imaging "in the mix" possible. There is a magical quality about such recordings when reproduced with that image clarity preserved. When I said, "However, listener preference is also very certainly dependent on personal experience," I was suggesting that many listeners might not fully appreciate that kind of experience because it is relatively rare and not easily achieved. I have seen a number of previously unappreciative listeners become ardent converts to that view after a brief exposure to it in a "properly" set up room. I still recall a post from a year or two ago where the individual emphasized how that kind of experience "really messes with your head." Those who have that kind of experience for the first time may or may not _go crazy for it_ like I have. My suspicion is that the majority of listeners, given that experience and an open mind free of conflicting agendas, will become ardent converts to it and will spend the rest of their listening days in pursuit of it. BUT, there are bound to be exceptions.


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## AudiocRaver

Here is the UltraTouch as found at the local Menards building supply store.


















Here are the materials received from GIK, still boxed up.










The Knauf board, six pieces in a carton.










The frame pieces. Notice they are routed to have the needed strength without extra weight.










The six Knauf board pieces out of the carton. They are medium dense and have smooth sides front and back.










The corner triangles for structural strength.










All laid out.










The box of frame pieces from GIK included screws for assembling the frames and nails for the corner pieces.


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## AudiocRaver

It was a sunny day in Lincoln Nebraska today, so I made some good progress.

Hmmm, looks just a little confusing in this view... BUT WAIT!...








Alright. Now we are starting to line up pilot holes for assembly. A very slight mismatch between hole spacings on end and side pieces only slowed me down a little. I am assured that GIK is refining that aspect of the design.








Here is the first corner screwed together loosely with the provided drywall screws.








And the first entire frame screwed together loosely. Note the composition board is easy to strip out if screwed too tightly or if mishandled, so I am proceeding with caution.








The Knauf board is 4 ft by 8 ft and the outside dimensions of the frame are 4 ft by 8 ft. GIK's instructions state that trimming of the Knauf pieces will be necessary.








Placing two sides along the inside edges of the frame and using the remaining 2 sides as guides for cutting, I found the Knauf board very easy to cut with a serrated bread knife. A few successive long slices is all it took.








You can see the two cuts partially done.








And the trimmed panel fits in the frame snugly. Nice!








Now I am contemplating just how to use the UltraTouch batting along with the Knauf, and how to use the provided fabric to cover it all. Contemplation time cannot be rushed. After chili with friends and some more contemplation time, the answer appeared. The mind is a terrible thing. Wait... The mind is a terrible thing _to waste_... and a wonderful thing to create with - yes, that's better. By that time it was dark. More tomorrow...


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## Tonto

Hey Wayne, nice job so far! Do you think it would be easier to turn the insulation sideways? Looks you could cut to fit perfectly that way.
Not to take over your project, just thinking out loud again!


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## AudiocRaver

You read my mind, or I read yours, Tonto. Another sunny day here, so outside making more progress.

Status: There were a couple of tiny splits starting in the shorter cross pieces where screws were inserted. I rubbed in a little wood glue and clamped while it dried, to strengthen the wood there.

Then I exercised my right to DIY-OCD and, with no disassembly, added wood glue to all exposed joints and potential split spots. One frame remains to be assembled, I will probably use a little glue in all the joints for that final frame.

When finished, two panels will be done the GIK way and two will be done my way with one layer of Knauf board and a layer of the denim material. The trick will be adding the thicker denim (5 inch thick but very squishy) to the 2 inch Knauf without pushing the Knauf board out of the front or causing it to bulge. A couple of vertical lengths of 1 x 2 (3/4 x 1.5 actual) will be glued & screwed to the inside of the frame to support it plus a couple outside the back to hold in place.

The two GIK-way panels will be appropriate for portable use. The other two will be heavier and will be semi permanent when installed. All 4 will be attached so their angle relative to the wall can be varied at will.


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## NBPk402

I am very curious as to how the denim works out... I have it stuffed in my soffits, and another bag or two behind my screen.


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## AudiocRaver

It has been an entire week since the last post. That is how slow I am at the upholstery attachment process. And only 1 of the 4 panels is done. Such is the world of DIY, you can get tripped up by the littlest thing.

No doubt there are a thousand guides for upholstery work online.:huh:

A finished frame with two trimmed Knauf panels in place.








A side view. You can see the two Knauf panel thicknesses in this photo.








Another side view.








On a couple of the frame end-pieces, small cracks appeared where screws were inserted. A little wood glue and a C-clamp took care of that!








With the upholstery cut into 4 pieces, one section was spread out and the first panel placed on it face-down.








Jo Ann's Fabric and Craft store had the upholstery tack strip. The _other_ local hobby & craft stores did not.








The tools and the process. This photo shows about a day's worth of work.


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## AudiocRaver

ALMOST DONE!

First I gotta admit that for me a DIY project ends up being a little like parenting. Four panels -- four kids. For the first panel, everything had to be perfect. By the time I was finishing the fourth panel, I just wanted it done and out of the way already! Write when you get work! But I digress...


The Wall. This wall has been through so many changes and transitions over the last four years, wish I had pics of every phase. I could make a fun time-elapse mini movie of the development process. All these will be forgotten, "_like tears in the rain," sniff..._ Seriously, it has been a university of acoustics design down here in the Vibratorium. And it is exciting to be having it draw close to fruition. Notice I did not say _done._ Nothing is ever _done_ down here.









With two panels completed, time to add treatment to the wall itself. Since the GIK panels are destined to stand at an angle relative to the wall, I long ago decided to add some batting to the wall itself behind the panels. The second layer on the wall itself will add to the bass absorption. Rather than killing specific room modes, like we do with a tuned trap, the goal is mainly to dampen out the vibrations at those frequencies so the bass is tighter and SS&I improved. The Proof of Concept had already shown this to be a very effective strategy. Here are the two already finished panels, ready for the next step.









A simple framework will hold the batting in place. The vertical wood pieces will clamp it against the wall, letting it fluff loosly at middle and ends.









Working on getting the batting into place.









The wall frame and batting as planned.









The vertical clamping bars did not quite snug all the way down, that would have been too tight. Not to worry, though, that bating is not going anywhere.









Getting ready for a listening test with the first two panels.









I have ordered an additional yard of the same fabric from GIK to dress up the wall frame. It will look much nicer! With the batting in place on the wall, the two finished panels were set up for a quick test. The song that had been going through my head - _Sleep Is Wrong_ - Sleepytime Gorilla Museum - was first played. Sounds good! But - _So Far Away_ - Dire Straits - and - _Black Hole Sun_ - Soundgarden - were far better demo songs for the effectiveness of the treatment. Scuse me, gotta pause to wipe a few tears...


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## AudiocRaver

Last two panels. These would each hold a layer of the Knauf panel and a layer of the much-thicker UltraTouch batting. A couple of slats were glued into place for support so the UltraTouch did not push the Knauf panel through the front.









Moving quickly now, stapling the fabric into place more simply than before, the upholstery support strip was nice but took forever.









Horizontal strips of the batting were cut.









All three pieces in place, they fit just right.









Backside of a panel the GIK way.









Backside of a panel the _OTHER_ way, with thicker UltraTouch layer added. Not near as pretty. Oh, well. The left-over upholstery strip ended up acting like suspenders, holding the batting in place. And the finger is holding the camera in place - oops!









Closeups.
















A comparison of the two approaches, rear view.









All in place and ready for another listening test. The slight lean-back gave a very slight improvement in SS&I. There ARE small reflections coming off of the front of those panels. The horizontal and vertical angles are chosen to direct those reflections away from the LP. The result? Nirvana! My phone will be on _silent_ for a few days, don't bother me!


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## Tonto

Is this the front wall, & between the front speakers? Sorry if you states this earlier, don't remember. Can we see a pic that's wide enough to see the speakers in it?


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## NBPk402

Looking great Wayne! When I made mine I used Roxul (4" total thickness per panel), and used 1"x4" for the frame. I then made a ledge for the rear of the panel so when I pushed the Roxul in it went flush to the rear. I also picked up some cheap cotton material from Jo Annes, and stapled that to the rear of the panels to keep everything nice and sanitary. My panels ended up with the Roxul sticking out the front a bit, but it gave me a rounded/angled corner which works out well in my situation...plus it sits flush against the wall. Now I know some people suggest spacing the panels out from the wall to make them more effective, but I didn't. Have you tried that to see how it effects the sound? I also found that Redwood works better than Pine (IMO) as it is lighter, and safer for first reflection panels hanging over your head.  In hindsight I would make all my panels from Redwood (currently only the ceiling ones are redwood), but we learn from our DIY projects. 

Are you going to test out to see if the holes on the side of the panels make a difference vs solid sides?


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## AudiocRaver

Tonto said:


> Is this the front wall, & between the front speakers? Sorry if you states this earlier, don't remember. Can we see a pic that's wide enough to see the speakers in it?


OK, it's a little embarrassing to show that much of the turmoil of the room, but here it is. The speakers are the older MartinLogan ESLs, on the left and right sides of the picture, in what I consider a mid-field configuration, partly driven by the room and partly by personal preference. Dimensions: A=LP-to-speaker-plane=45in; B=center-to-center-of-the-electrostatic-panels=67in; speaker-plane-to-wall=64in; C=LP-to-wall=109in; the width of the front wall being covered by the leaning GIK panekls is about 5.5 ft.








And of course a BIG thanks to GIK for the great kits and the great design.


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## AudiocRaver

ellisr63 said:


> Looking great Wayne! When I made mine I used Roxul (4" total thickness per panel), and used 1"x4" for the frame. I then made a ledge for the rear of the panel so when I pushed the Roxul in it went flush to the rear. I also picked up some cheap cotton material from Jo Annes, and stapled that to the rear of the panels to keep everything nice and sanitary. My panels ended up with the Roxul sticking out the front a bit, but it gave me a rounded/angled corner which works out well in my situation...plus it sits flush against the wall. Now I know some people suggest spacing the panels out from the wall to make them more effective, but I didn't. Have you tried that to see how it effects the sound?


Yes, it does make the panel absorption more effective and primarily helps tighten up the bass and sharpen the soundstage. Standing the panels at the angle shown with the small amount of reflection going back to the speaker and not toward the LP makes a BIG difference in the image clarity and the sharpening of the soundstage. In my opinion, it is a major point of the design.



> I also found that Redwood works better than Pine (IMO) as it is lighter, and safer for first reflection panels hanging over your head.  In hindsight I would make all my panels from Redwood (currently only the ceiling ones are redwood), but we learn from our DIY projects.


Cool idea on the redwood, probably looks sharp too.



> Are you going to test out to see if the holes on the side of the panels make a difference vs solid sides?


Nope, bigger fish to fry. I _doubt_ it would make a difference.


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## AudiocRaver

Here is a rough diagram of the room layout, with dimensions.











I do need to take some REW measurements. I wanted to get a few before adding the batting on the front wall, then forgot. No way am I going to take that down just for a few measurements. I will get what I can.


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## NBPk402

AudiocRaver said:


> Here is a rough diagram of the room layout, with dimensions.
> 
> View attachment 132434
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do need to take some REW measurements. I wanted to get a few before adding the batting on the front wall, then forgot. No way am I going to take that down just for a few measurements. I will get what I can.


Funny that you mention that as I was just talking with a friend of mine earlier today, and we both agree that the front wall placement of acoustic panels made a bigger improvement in getting our setups sounding right than the first reflection panels did. In my friends setup he is listening in nearfield vs my 12' MLP.


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## Savjac

Wow, very interesting AudioCraver, thank you so much for sharing. It makes me want to get off my behind and do the same thing. 

:smile:


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## AudiocRaver

ellisr63 said:


> Funny that you mention that as I was just talking with a friend of mine earlier today, and we both agree that the front wall placement of acoustic panels made a bigger improvement in getting our setups sounding right than the first reflection panels did. In my friends setup he is listening in nearfield vs my 12' MLP.


Early reflections are your enemy, unless they are your friend.:laugh2:

If they

arrive from the same pan location as the direct wave (left-to-right pan), not significantly outside of or inside of the L & R speaker listening angle
arrive at the same delay time within a few microseconds vs the direct wave (example: L & R direct waves arrive at a carefully matched 12 mS and first reflected waves arrive at a carefully matched 10 mS +/- 10 uS or so later)
All will work together to create a killer soundstage, assuming "all else" is in order.


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## AudiocRaver

Savjac said:


> Wow, very interesting AudioCraver, thank you so much for sharing. It makes me want to get off my behind and do the same thing.
> 
> :smile:


I will be a bit of a pain and when you hear the result you will wonder why you waited so long.:sn:


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## NBPk402

AudiocRaver said:


> Early reflections are your enemy, unless they are your friend.:laugh2:
> 
> If they
> 
> arrive from the same pan location as the direct wave (left-to-right pan), not significantly outside of or inside of the L & R speaker listening angle
> arrive at the same delay time within a few microseconds vs the direct wave (example: L & R direct waves arrive at a carefully matched 12 mS and first reflected waves arrive at a carefully matched 10 mS +/- 10 uS or so later)
> All will work together to create a killer soundstage, assuming "all else" is in order.


I think what I should have said was that with the first reflection points covered(ceiling and side walls)...the front wall made an even bigger difference when it was covered(we were not expecting as much of a difference as it made).


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## AudiocRaver

I follow you, and can see how you would come to that conclusion. My own work has led to prioritizing the front wall, and still hitting the other early reflection points, but with simple foam square treatments, leading to the same result. I have done nothing with the ceiling and feel no need to, per the reasons given in this previous post (ceiling reflections are "SS&I friendly"). I have been very impressed by the improvement the GIK panels have given, along with the batting behind them on the wall. More on that later...

Edit: SS&I were already good, so one can easily wonder how much an improvement will be gained by treatments like were recently added. Then you try them, and ZOWIE! I am SO glad I did it!


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