# Sherwood Newcastle R-972



## Matteo (Jul 12, 2006)

Hi All,
I am just finishing completely setting up my theater room with my new Sherwood Newcastle R-972. Up to this point it has been a mix of boxes, paint and tools that I would push in the corner while I enjoyed the movie.
I had a problem with the R-972 when I tried to use the Trinnov EQ. The receiver was not finding all of my speakers and was causing all of the sound to come from about a 25 degree angle left of center. I updated the software and recalibrated and am happy to say it sounds wonderful. Does it sound better than the Onkyo 807 I have? It seems to, but I still am in the early stages of setup. One thing I noticed is that it tamed my bass down a lot, so tomorrow I will be uploading a +6dB hex code to boost it back a bit and playing with my Behringer 2500. I can't wait to see what it does.
As far as my speakers, they really have never sounded better. I am using the Atlantic Technololgy 6200's, with the center one behind a sound/perf screen. I don't have it fully mounted in the wall so it is sitting on the cabinet at the bottom and behind the screen. I think I will set it on a box tomorrow about 2 feet below the screen and see what Trinnov can do with that, just for fun.
I do notice that dialogue is very clear and the room has really "opened" up. It is a very immersive experience. I will update you more as I play around, but I thought since this is a newer receiver I might post a bit on it for anyone interested and let you know to update it if you get one without a current update. Sunday is 15 hours of the extended versions of Lord Of The Rings, no breaks, no whining, no fear. So it begins...


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Looks like a great receiver matt, I know Trinnov is getting some very good feedback and is featuring more and more in AV kit, I believe ADA are using it in there high end processors, so must be a worthy addition and look forward to some more feedback from yourself :T


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Matt, very cool you got a 972. I really love the combination of Reon and Trinnov Room EQ. It is a model which I have seriously considered purchasing myself.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Matteo (Jul 12, 2006)

Well,
I was fretting over my bass for awhile. My IB sub really is massive and will turn you into jelly if I crank it up. I wasn't feeling bass at all in position 2. Trinnov allows three different positions for setup. So, I switched to position 1, and boom, suddenly my bass returned with oomph and the speakers still sounded wonderful. I checked my results for position 2, and the bass had not been recorded by the mic. I tried to calibrate position 2 again, and the same thing happened. Without making any changes to my system or moving the mic, I tried to calibrate the position 2 (back row, center seat, on the riser) to Trinnov's position 3. It worked great. There must be a glitch that will not allow Trinnov #2 to pick up my bass. I will have to contact Sherwood on Monday. 
So as it stands, I have 2 positions calibrated in my room, which is fine. I have it set at front row center, and back row on the riser center. In reality, my 2 favorite positions are the only ones that really matter. Everyone else thinks the system sounds great no matter where they sit. Have a day full of tweaking ahead of me. Think I better get some coffee brewing. Later.


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## KrazyK (Feb 28, 2010)

Matteo,

I also own a R-972. I just purchased it before Christmas. I haven't done the 3 listening position set-up yet because I usually sit in one spot anyway! However I did have to go through the Trinnov set-up a couple of times. I'm not sure if you noticed the manual tells you to put the sub at half volume and put the cross-over to max. This is because the Trinnov uses an active crossover. After that you can adjust your volume to desired levels. I was wondering if you have tried copying you Trinnov settings into a manual configuration and then tweaking it from there? I'm hoping to try this when I have more time with a sound analyzer. I can't be happier with the extended sound field this receiver has though! Trinnov has been quite impressive. One other question? I was also wondering if you have listened to FM for extended periods? My receiver looses all FM signal after about 40 minutes. I've ordered a replacement. It's probable a bad cold solder joint from Korea. I'll let you know if I find anything else.
Thanks,


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## Matteo (Jul 12, 2006)

Hello Karl,
Sorry about the FM issue. I have listened to the radio all day on it and have not had any issues. I bought some insulation to start my room treatment but am having a difficult time setting up my sound card. Worked great before, so I must be missing something small. Yes, I like the idea of copying the settings and tweeking a bit. After I insulated the entire front wall behind my screen it sound just a bit dull, so I wanted to try some measurements. It could be that I flattened out my response curve a little and just don't like the sound quite as much. I will let you know as I play more. I do like the surround effects and it is amazing while watching movies. I swear I can't localize one single speaker anywhere. It feels as if the all the walls are great, big speakers. 

Matteo


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

That's great about the 972. I have been interested in Outlaw's preamp version of this for some time and it's good to start getting some feedback.

The Trinnov seems to be living up to the hype, with a bit of a learning curve


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## Matteo (Jul 12, 2006)

Just an update. With my first setup I had some issues with the Trinnov. It will EQ whether I am setting my surrounds for dipole or bipole, but seems to take more measurements with the bipole, like it can't get a good signal. After initial EQ, I was very happy with the surround and L/R speaker, but the center seemed to be a little flat, or dull. I tried everything, and nothing would help. A few days later my right speaker sounded like it had blown the tweeter. After some messing, I found it was not my speaker, but the right receiver channel, the rca output. I called Sherwood and they instructed me on a few things to try. I ended up resetting the receiver and redoing the EQ. Now it sounds wonderful with no blown speaker sound. It really is a breathtaking receiver, once you get the kinks out. I figure that it is a new technology in a very reasonable price range, so a I can live with a few quarks. I did compare it to an Onkyo 807 I had on hand. Since I had torn the whole thing apart, I hooked up the Onkyo, EQ'd it, and listened. Though the Onkyo was good, the Sherwood was better. Voices clear on both, but the Sherwood shines with making my speakers disappear. It is hard to localize the speakers. I described it before as if it sounds like all the walls have millions of speakers in them and the sound comes from everywhere. Much more realistic. Very intense surround. Also, imaging is super. Very happy with it, if you can' tell. 

Matteo


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## KrazyK (Feb 28, 2010)

I should be getting a new receiver soon to fix my FM issues. I too have acoustic treatments in my room. I would run your set-up again to take the softer acoustics into account when Trinnov does its algorithm. I haven't had time to copy my settings and tweak them yet; but I plan on it. Let me know if Trinnov fixed the softer wall; I plan on making some changes to my front stage as well. Your comment about localization with this receiver is an understatement. I was blown away by the imaging from Trinnov. Happy listening!


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

Cool. Thanks for the updates guys! Maybe that Outlaw preamp (same guts as the Sherwood) is still in my future :daydream:


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## Matteo (Jul 12, 2006)

Anthony,
Does the Outlaw use the Trinnov? 

matteo


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

it's still Vaporware, but supposedly Outlaw designed the R-972 for Sherwood. The agreement was that Sherwood would get to do a full release for a month or so, then Outlaw would release the 997, which is s pre/pro version of it (with the same guts, processing, etc -- except the the amp section).


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

Update: Outlaw has officially cancelled production of the 997. The delays at S/N and their common development partner have made it near obsolete, so they are holding off to make a 1.4/3D compatible pre/pro.

More details to follow in a separate thread, or the News section of this site.


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## xjr15 (Mar 15, 2010)

Question for Matteo( or for anybody who knows the answer ) referring to his Sherwood Newcastle R-972 Receiver:

In Matteo's post on 1/30/10:
" I checked my results for position 2, and the bass had not been recorded by the mic. "

I own a 972 and have had weak bass with my unit. 
My question is : How did you know that "the bass had not been recorded by the mic"?

Thanks!

xjr15


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## Matteo (Jul 12, 2006)

Sorry for the delay in response. 
After taking measurements you will see a table with the results listed. If there is a dash (-)under the speaker, it means it wasn't recorded. My bass read "0" under distance, but still worked. I have my sub built into the floor, so I assume it is impossible to get a good distance on it, as it is spread over 12 or so feet. As long as there is some number, you should be fine. If it doesn't work, try turning up the bass louder to get a reading.


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## xjr15 (Mar 15, 2010)

Matteo said:


> Sorry for the delay in response.
> After taking measurements you will see a table with the results listed. If there is a dash (-)under the speaker, it means it wasn't recorded. My bass read "0" under distance, but still worked. I have my sub built into the floor, so I assume it is impossible to get a good distance on it, as it is spread over 12 or so feet. As long as there is some number, you should be fine. If it doesn't work, try turning up the bass louder to get a reading.


Thanks for replying. When I look at the Results for position 1, I do see data for my subwoofer, not blanks, but the data doesn't make any sense to me. I do see blanks for the rear surrounds, which is as it should be, since my setup is 5.1. For the subwoofer: the H angle is 90 degrees(?), the V angle is 0 degrees(?), the distance is 6.25 meters( actually the distance is about 10 feet ). The only thing that makes sense to me is the -6 dB point of 21 Hz. According to the level corrections( which must be wrong ), the subwoofer was raised 1 dB and the other speakers( small mini-monitors ) were all reduced in level from 17 to 20 dB. But maybe The signs are reversed and the sub was lowered 1 dB and sats raised by 17 to 20 dB. That would make sense, but it doesn't sound very good( no bass ).

I have only calibrated/set position 1. As soon as I can get time to do it I'm going to calibrate positions 2 and 3. Maybe the missing bass will reappear for those positions. But if not, I can live with position 1, with Trinnov Room EQ set to "None", and with the subw level tuned by ear, and with the Bass +6 dB target file( supplied by Sherwood in their R-972 firmware upgrade kit ) installed according to Sherwood's instructions.


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## xjr15 (Mar 15, 2010)

On my 972( which has the latest firmware, 1.34 ), I have found, like Matteo, that you cannot assume that all 3 Trinnov Positions are the same. They seem to have different initial states, because from precisely same mic position and speaker setup, different Trinnov Positions calibrate differently. So if you get an unsatisfactory calibration with Position 1, try using Position 2 or 3, and you may get lucky. I did.

With my 972, Position 1 gets the speaker mapping right, but gets the levels wrong( especially the sub, which is too far down ), Position 2 gets the mapping( geometry ) wrong, but gets the levels right, and Position 3 gets both the mapping geometry and the levels right. If the sub is underfed to the extent mine was at Position 1, none of the Room EQ options have much of an effect, as they are swamped by the over-bright level settings. With more accurate level settings, the Trinnov Room EQ is usable and audible, though you may still opt to turn it off.

The moral: if you can't get it right with one Trinnov Position, try another one. The different Trinnov Positions are supposed to be used for different seating positions, but in my unit only one Position( 3 ) works, so can only get a correct calibration for one seating position.


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## Matteo (Jul 12, 2006)

I agree the Trinnov is a little quarky, unfortunately, because once it is correct, I love it. XJR15, have you updated the software and installed the +6dB hex code for the bass? That really fixed any issues I was having with it, especially the bass. My positions 1, 2, and 3 all sound identical to me. They have some slight variations with results, but I mean slight, like less than a few inches of variation. They also sound the same, I can't tell a difference anymore. Again, I had to upgrade the software, load the +6dB hex codes and reboot the receiver twice, but now it works great. If you can, set you subwoofer at the lowest volume that Trinnov will pick it up at. Hopefully it will be somewhere like 30-50% volume. After calibration, turn up the volume manually. This should keep the mapping correct but give you the volume you are looking for. Good luck.

Matteo


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## xjr15 (Mar 15, 2010)

Thanks for the reply. When the calibration was done, I had the sub level set at the midpoint( 50% ). I also have all of the latest 972 firmware. I am also using the +6dB update( but before calibration I installed the Flat update, after calibration, I found it necessary to reinstall the +6dB update ). Following calibration, I also dialed the sub level control up by 3-5 dB. Having done some more listening to Position 1( weak bass ) and Position 3( normal bass ), I think that the problem with Position 1 on my 972 is that bass management is not being done by the 972 in that Position. If true, that means that if you are using floorstanding, full-range speakers in the front, it may seem to work for you, even though it is not operating as advertised. But if you are using small stand-mounted speakers with limited output below 100 Hz( as I am ), the bass will be conspicuous by its absence in that Position. Right now I am using Trinnov Position 3 with Trinnov Remapping but without Trinnov Room EQ, because I don't like the way Room EQ messes up midrange and treble on the very accurate speakers I am using( Paradigm Reference Signature S1 v.2( fronts and surrounds ) and C1 v.2( center ) ). Audyssey Room EQ had the same problem, doing pretty well on the bass but messing up the midrange and treble. I wish the Trinnov Room EQ curve that supposedly only equalizes below 300 Hz worked well, but it doesn't, at least not for me. The SVS/Audyssey Bass EQ box cannot be used with the 972. I am instead going to try a Velodyne SMS-1.


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## KrazyK (Feb 28, 2010)

Question for down mixing into stereo.
I'm using a pioneer elite blu-ray, Sony DVD player and x-box 360 through my R-972 wired 5.1 with bi-amped fronts. Both the 360 and Blu-ray are using HDMI through the receiver while the DVD is using digital audio. I use my receiver to play a lot of music both MP3's and CD's. I've noticed that when you down mix to stereo sound still comes from all 5 speakers; until you turn off Trinnov mapping in the quick settings. Can any one else confirm this? I prefer to listen to my music in stereo the way it was produced. I find it anoying to have to go into the main menu to get stereo. I haven't upgraded my firmware because I've been waiting on a replacement unit do to FM signal dropout. Is the stereo down-mix a fix in the new firmware or is it just another glitch with my unit?


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

KrazyK said:


> Question for down mixing into stereo.
> I'm using a pioneer elite blu-ray, Sony DVD player and x-box 360 through my R-972 wired 5.1 with bi-amped fronts. Both the 360 and Blu-ray are using HDMI through the receiver while the DVD is using digital audio. I use my receiver to play a lot of music both MP3's and CD's. I've noticed that when you down mix to stereo sound still comes from all 5 speakers; until you turn off Trinnov mapping in the quick settings. Can any one else confirm this? I prefer to listen to my music in stereo the way it was produced. I find it anoying to have to go into the main menu to get stereo. I haven't upgraded my firmware because I've been waiting on a replacement unit do to FM signal dropout. Is the stereo down-mix a fix in the new firmware or is it just another glitch with my unit?


Same for regular stereo, not just mixed-down from MCH. My belief is that the Trinnov remapping utilizes all the channels/speakers, regardless of the number in the original source format, in order to accomplish the remapping of the soundstage. Yes, I agree that it is a pain for stereo listening.


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## Matteo (Jul 12, 2006)

What you could do for stereo listening, at least I think it is feasible, is if you are going to use your Elite to listen to music, setup another input source, one that is empty (let's call it input #4), and call it "stereo". Turn off Trinnov to that input. Then when you listen to input #4 you have the stereo. So your Elite would be DVD input to number 1 input, but also through number 4, that you now call stereo. You would just have to push that input level to have a quick change. I hope that makes sense. You can also do this to test the different Trinnov EQ's if you want. Each EQ mode would be a different input, and since you can free-text label them, you could have inputs "flat", "Audiophile 2" and so on, for quick comparison. 
Matteo


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## KrazyK (Feb 28, 2010)

I'll try it thanks....


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## Matteo (Jul 12, 2006)

KrazyK,
What ever became of your problem?
Matteo


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## Matteo (Jul 12, 2006)

KrazyK,
What ever became of your problem?
Matteo


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## KrazyK (Feb 28, 2010)

I finally received a new unit from Sherwood USA. Everything has worked fine in the new unit until I recently noticed True HD audio cuts in and out. I'm in contact with them trying to resolve a fix. Apparently I'm not the only one with this issue. I've given up on this product. They are not willing to give me my money back so I'm back to dealing with Sherwood USA. I honestly love Trinnov and what it has to offer. I'm just not willing to have to deal with such a unstable product. I also find HDMI handshaking issues a constant headache with this product. I control my system with an MSC-400 and RS-232 so timing of turning things on etc. are always the same. However, the R-972 seems to have a mind of it's own when it comes to outputting audio and video through HDMI. I'm not sure yet what I'll purchase to replace the R-972. If they send me another new one it will be going on E-Bay in the new box. If I don't get another new one or a fix I'll probable take it out of it's misery the Canadian way?!? I'll place it on my driveway and take slap shots at it with hockey pucks. It will make for a great Youtube video!!!!!
I've about had it with all this Asian made cheap junk.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I know there have been a myriad of issues with the R-972. It is why in spite of it having both the excellent Reon HQV Video Processor and the Trinnov EQ, I have never recommended it to anyone.

KrazyK, I truly am sorry that you too have had major issues with your R-972. I have followed several Threads about this AVR and the overall news is distressing to put it mildly. 

HDMI has proven to be a very difficult function for many CE Companies to implement properly. Especially smaller ones without the R&D and QC Testing that the large Companies have. Regardless, even if a unit is very promising as is the case with the R-972, if it is not stable it should not be brought to market. I am pretty sure this is part of the reason behind Outlaw Audio not releasing their long awaited SSP which also was to offer Trinnov and I think even Reon as well.
Cheers,
JJ


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## xjr15 (Mar 15, 2010)

I had the problem with audio dropouts with my 972's TrueHD decoder, but I got around it using the bitstream-to-PCM output conversion on my Oppo BDP-83.

I have never had any HDMI handshaking issues with my 972. I have a very simple setup for optical disc playback. From disc player to TV there are only 2 HDMI cables: one from the Oppo to the 972 and one from the 972 to the TV( Pioneer Elite Kuro Pro-111FD ). For cable TV, I connect the cable box directly to the TV with another HDMI cable; the cable audio is Toslink( or coax, I don't remember ) to the 972. I have been using the 972 for about 4 months so far without HDMI problems.

I love my R-972 and would recommend it but for bad experiences others have had with it. It has taken out speakers with loud noise bursts; I got a private email from a user on avs some months ago who had that happen. In my experience with the 1.34 fw, on some CDs, when listening in Stereo mode, in the transition between tracks, just for a fraction of a second the next track will start VERY LOUD but it self-corrects almost immediately, and if I restart the track manually, I don't usually get the high level. Since it's very brief, no harm is done, but it can be disconcerting.

But the Trinnov really shows how critical speaker placement( including speaker direction with respect to the listening position, not only horizontal and vertical angle ) is in surround setups if you want to hear the sound field as intended by the artists/engineers/producers. Probably very few surround music setups are correct; Audyssey doesn't cut it, and with manual setup you can't control all of the variables. The Trinnov remapping does work in its R-972 implementation and the difference it makes can be big. Many people think that the _Pet Sounds _DVD-Audio( and later Dolby special issue ) has a lot of vocal imaging in the surrounds; not so with the Trinnov; there is some side/rear vocal imaging, and a lot on at least one of the a capella extras, but the surround use is subtle on most tracks. Another example is _Dark Side_, which has plenty of side and rear imaging with Trinnov engaged. People don't like Guthrie's mix and I had a similar reaction until I heard it with Trinnov. I would say that if you haven't heard it through a Trinnov Optimizer, you probably haven't heard it.


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## xjr15 (Mar 15, 2010)

"I've about had it with all this Asian made cheap junk."

There is also a lot of American-made and European-made "cheap junk" to avoid. And there is also lots of tweako _expensive_ junk available for misinformed 'audiophiles' with deep pockets. Many companies cater to this demographic, the worst example being expensive power cords and cables, but there are so many others. One that makes me laugh is charging double the price for a disc player with 'audiophile' DACs, for those 'discerning' listeners who can 'hear the difference'; any measurable difference between the 'audiophile' DACs and the DACs in almost any good( inexpensive ) receiver is almost certainly inaudible, but that's a _dangerous thought _that dare not be spoken( or tested ).


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

HDMI is the thorn in most manufactures sides, or at least getting it to work properly


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## xjr15 (Mar 15, 2010)

I must be lucky because I haven't had any problems with HDMI. But, then again, I don't have an elaborate multiroom setup using half a dozen HDMI inputs and/or outputs. I wonder what will happen when 3D hits big( if it ever does )?


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

xjr15 said:


> I must be lucky because I haven't had any problems with HDMI. But, then again, I don't have an elaborate multiroom setup using half a dozen HDMI inputs and/or outputs.


Same here.


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