# The Official $1,000 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event



## Sonnie

This is... *The Official $1,000 Speaker Evaluation / Home Audition Event Thread*










*Introduction and Goals*

It is official... we will conduct a speaker evaluation and home audition of various selected speaker lines costing not more than $1,000 per pair. The event will be held on August 23 and 24 (Friday and Saturday) at my home in Luverne, AL.

The goal is to find a pair of speakers for my personal two-channel system, which will be setup within my dedicated home theater room. The speakers for this particular audition will be floorstanding in a non-sheen black color, so that they can be moved out of the way during home theater use and not be a viewing distraction.

There will be a *giveaway* associated with this evaluation, which will consist of a requirement to vote in the poll included with this thread, along with a comment explaining why you believe I will choose the speakers I choose. The speaker pair I ultimately choose will not be announced until November 1, 2013.

It was difficult to put a limit on the speakers at $1,000 (plus reasonable shipping). For another $100, we could have included several more speakers. For another $200, even more... for another $500 we could have filled the house up and would have never had time to evaluate all of them. Is $1,000 all I want to spend on speakers for a two channel system? Not necessarily, and I may buy other speakers costing more at a later date. At some point in time I hope to evaluate bookshelf/monitor speakers and cap the cost at $1,000/pair. I may also conduct a evaluation with speakers ranging from $1,000 to $2,000 (new or mint), which would be as an upgrade to the speakers I choose in this evaluation. I included used or demo speakers provided they were in mint condition and rated at least 9/10 mechanically and cosmetically... and provided the shipping was not excessive. In most cases I was able to get shipping included, and at maximum I paid $99 for the pair. 

While the ultimate goal is to find speakers for my two-channel rig, we want to also give you (the readers) insight on several speaker models within a reasonable budget figure, and show you how we will go about comparing them with one another. We will also be evaluating a couple of integrated tube amps from Jolida and Rogue, a tube preamp from Jolida combined with an Emerald Physics solid state amp, in addition to my current Denon 4520 receiver in Pure Direct mode. We will also be demonstrating custom interconnects and speaker wire from RAM Electronics, as well as testing a power filter/power cable combo from P.I. Audio. So we have quite a lineup of equipment, as well as we hope to have a LOT of fun listening to some really good music. As you can see... Home Theater Shack is not just about home theater, we are about everything to do with audio (and video). Home theater enthusiast enjoy two-channel music listening as well, although I have to admit, I use to care about it less than I do now. The older I get, the more I am finding music that I can really appreciate... as well as opening up to trying various new gear, such as tube amps, which I have never owned. Bottom line... there is a lot going on at this event and we truly hope you will enjoy this speaker evaluation round.

Before we get to the lineup of speakers that will be evaluated and auditioned, let's take a closer look at the equipment that will be used in the system.


*Associated Equipment*

*OPPO BDP-105 Universal Player* - The BDP-105 will be the primary source, and includes the newer ESS SABRE32 Reference Audiophile DAC's on the outputs. This unit was recently reviewed by Luther Ward (Wardsweb) of HTS: OPPO BDP-105 Universal Player Review.


*Denon DP-300F Turntable* - It is not a fancy turntable with a high dollar cartridge, but it will enable us to listen to some vinyl during the evaluation.


*Jolida Fusion JD-3502BRC Integrated Tube Amp* - A 60 WPC integrated tube amp with 6550 tubes. This is one of Jolida's newest models with several upgrades over their previous models. At the time of posting this thread, Jolida does not have this model up on their site, nor have there been any product reviews. I was able to obtain a really good deal on this unit thanks to Walter (underwoodwally) at Underwood HiFi... a sponsor here at HTS. If you are looking for great deals on some really nice brands of gear, look no further than Underwood HiFi. I don't know of anyone that discounts like they do, especially on the name brands they carry. This is one of the two integrated tube amps we will be using for the evaluation and auditioning.


*Jolida JD-5T Tube Preamp* and *Emerald Physics EP 100.2 Solid State Amp* - A rock solid combination to mix up the type of preamp/amp system powering the speakers. The Jolida preamp is a well respected remote controlled tube preamp and the Emerald Physics EP 100.2 is a 100 WPC (8Ω) fully balanced Class D solid state amp that is fairly new to the market. Again, thanks to a stellar deal from Underwood HiFi, we have this preamp/power amp system in the lineup for the evaluation.


*Rogue Cronus Magnum Integrated Tube Amp* - A 100 WPC (8Ω) integrated tube amp with KT-120 tubes. This has been a highly regarded and well reviewed integrated tube amp that will be used as the other tube amp in the evaluation/audition. We appreciate *Rogue* and their willingness to participate in this event.


*Denon AVR 4520CI Receiver* - A 150 WPC (8Ω) AV receiver that is currently used in my home theater giddy-up, powering my MartinLogan speakers. We felt like we needed a pure solid state take on the speakers, so this made the most sense without spending more money on another amp.


*RAM Electronics Custom XLR and RCA Cables* - "RAM-Flex" Stereo Cable with silver plated RCA connectors using Belden 1505F wire and sleeved with ViaBlue braid. We had RAM custom build these for us in 20', 6' and 18" lengths, including a 6' pair terminated with balanced XLR connectors. It seems a lot of readers are not aware that RAM, a sponsor here at HTS, will custom build just about any cable you can think of... just tell them what you want and they will fix you up. Their service is awesome, as is their quality. These are good looking, good quality cables that are very reasonably priced. RAM does not play around... you order up what you want and in a few days it is on your doorsteps. Compare RAM to places like Blue Jeans Cable and you will be saving money.


*RAM Electronics Custom Speaker Cables* - "Ram-Flex Custom Series" 11 AWG Canare 4S11 speaker cable sleeved with ViaBlue braid and terminated with gold plated locking banana plugs. These are also good looking high quality speaker cables that will not break the bank.


*P.I. audio group uberBUSS Power Filter* and *MPC/Power Cable* - I met Dave Elledge at the Lone Star Audio Fest when he was exhibiting his power filter in the GR Research room (GR Research is a sponsor with a forum here at HTS)... we all ate fried chicken together on Friday night of the show at a very inconspicuous restaurant. That was some of the finest country eating we have had in a while. We agreed to give his system a spin in our evaluation event and look forward to reporting the results.


*SVSound SB12-NSD Subwoofer* - As many of these speakers do not extend into the lower octaves, which I like to hear in my music listening, the SB12-NSD will be available to use as needed and when appropriate during the event. SVS has been a sponsor here at HTS since we started this gig and they have always produced stellar products.

*The Listening Room* 

Many of you reading this will be familiar with Cedar Creek Cinema, our dedicated home theater room that is a converted two car garage. The interior dimensions are 19.5' wide x 23.5' deep x 8.5' high. There is a 6" high x 4' deep stage across the front of the room, and a 12" riser in the back that is used partially as a ported enclosure for the rear subs. Our initial attempt at positioning the two-channel speakers will be based on the Cardas Room Setup & Speaker Placement Guide - Rectangular Room Setup. This means the front edge of the speakers will be approximately 8.75' from the front wall (or screen wall). Cardas calls this the "rear wall", as it is to the rear of the speakers, while I prefer to call it the front wall, as it is in front of me. Petty semantics. The Cardas placement will position the speakers approximately 5.5' from the side walls, which leaves about 8.5' between speakers. It will be difficult for the MLP to be 8.75' from the speakers to form that equilateral triangle, so we'll have to experiment for proper placement in relation to the given listening position, as I do not plan to give up my reclining comfort. The three front recliners are parked right up against the front wall of the riser and would be too difficult to move around.

Here is a layout of the room...

 

There are some who will inevitably ask why I do not simply enjoy the MartinLogan Prodigy speakers as my primary two-channel listening speakers. They actually sound pretty good where they are, but would sound much better if I could get them out from the wall and moved closer in toward one another... and basically be able to better experiment with the placement. They are currently positioned so that they clear the sides of the rather large 125" projection screen. They sound wonderful for movies, with an enormously wide sound, yet imaging is dead on with two-channel music. Maybe that does not do justice in describing what you may want to hear, but I am very pleased with the sound for movies. These ML's also have spikes and are heavy... meaning these are not the kind of speaker you want to be moving back and forth from movie placement to two-channel placement. Regardless, if I used them, then I would not really need to do this speaker evaluation and I would miss out on all the fun we are going to have... who wants to spoil that? Not me!


*The Speakers*

I chose these speakers mainly because I wanted to experiment with various speakers that have some type of unique build design or a unique type of driver, versus the traditional column speaker with traditional stacked dome drivers. This is not to insinuate that these particular unique designs are going to necessarily produce the best sound or that traditional stacked dome speakers are inferior. I chose some of them because I have always wanted to hear them and now is as good a time as any. Others I chose because they were recommended by someone here on the forum and it worked out to be able to get them here for the event. As previously eluded to, all of these are floorstanding and black, either new or mint condition used, and can be purchased for $1,000 or less (at the time of this evaluation) plus minimal shipping.


*Klipsch RF-62 II* : The horn speaker that I hear people say that you either love or hate. I did own a pair of Klipsch Forte speakers back in the early 90's, but I have no idea how they sounded. As best I can remember, they sounded pretty good, but that was then and this is now. The RF series is much newer and I have wanted to give them a shot in my home theater room for a long time, just never have. At least I will now get to experience these in a customized two-channel setup.


*Vandersteen 2Ce* : These are just flat out highly regarded among two-channel enthusiast... and they have held their own in many reviews. They are no doubt the oldest of the bunch, but they are in absolute mint condition and look like they are almost new. There are plenty of these available for under $1,000... although the black is harder to find. I was able to score these trade-ins through a dealer on Audiogon.


*MartinLogan Motion 12* : These were going for super cheap on Newegg at one time, but those deals are no more. Still they are pretty easy to find for under $1,000 shipped. I was able to pick these up from a fellow who use to work for the ML distributor in my area. He still had them in an unopened box. I have heard good things about this new motion line from ML, and being a current ML owner, I am anxious to hear them, although I am not expecting that electrostatic sound that cost quite a bit more.


*HTD Level THREE* : These are speakers I have looked at many times online, but just never had the opportunity to hear them. They look really nice in person and I am told they are along the lines of Klipsch as far as that love/hate relationship. Jim Wilson reviewed the Level TWO System that we recently gave away here at HTS, and he was very well pleased with them, although they are quite different from the Level THREE model.


*Magnepan MG 12/QR* : I have always wanted to hear what the avid Magnepan owners call "Maggies". I am told that the MG 12's may not be enough Maggie for me and to really get a sense of how good Magnepan is, I will probably want to step on up in model class. I was able to get these MINT MG 12's in all black from Alan at Audio Waves in Trinidad, CA., at a really good bargain. He got these in on trade and says they are the cleanest he has ever seen on the used market. They indeed look very nice.


*Arx A5* : Jim Wilson reviewed the Arx A1b/A2b Speakers a while back and was impressed with these. The A5 is a nice step up and has been highly praised for its unique design. Jon Lane at The Audio Insider was very gracious in allowing the A5's to be a part of this evaluation and we are really looking forward to hearing these.


*Focal Chorus 716V* : At first glance these may look like the traditional dome driver speaker that I stated we were trying to avoid, but a closer look reveals the TNV2 Al/Mg inverted dome tweeter that is indeed a unique design. This is the company that designed and built the $90,000 Grande Utopia BE. Yeah we are a little over $89,000 apart, but let's see what the 716's have to offer.


*Tekton Model Lore* : Okay... so we do have one pair of speakers that somewhat fit the traditional dynamic speaker design, although Eric at Tekton has certainly created a intriguing speaker using a 10" bass guitar driver and the Audax Gold Dome Tweeter, which may seem a little bit like a strange combination. So maybe the Lore's are not your typical run of the mill dynamic speaker after all. 

*The Evaluation Attendees*

Who will be doing the evaluation? Naturally I will have to make up my own mind about what speakers I ultimately select for my own two-channel system. However, that does not mean that we are not going to have more evaluators to help keep me honest. It certainly would not be unusual for someone else to like another pair of speakers of their own choosing and different than what I like. So it is with great pleasure that I welcome *AudiocRaver* (Wayne), *lcaillo* (Leonard) and *Tonto* (Quenton) to my home during the evaluation. Wayne will likely be the primary evaluation write-up guy, but we will all have comments. I also plan to write-up a good bit towards the evaluation as well. So all in all, you definitely will not be short-changed when it comes to reading about the event. Perhaps you are considering a pair of these speakers for your own use... or maybe you are looking into a tube amp. We will no doubt give you the low down on what we hear.


*The Evaluation Outline* - (Tentative)

*Thu PM*


Setup Prep
*Fri AM*

First impression listen-through all speakers, minimum variables
0.5 hour per set
standard position using Cardas guidelines
standard toe-in (on-axis for dipoles)
standard room treatment
no sub
one tube amp
80 dB SPL
4 agreed-upon test tracks (each listener's favorite) - listener gets the PLP for his track, sharing allowed
 
First impression listen-through all amps
0.5 hour per amp
most "generic" speaker pair, standard position, toe-in, room treatment, no sub
4 agreed-upon test tracks (each listener's favorite) - listener gets the PLP for his track, sharing allowed
include 1 solid state amp for comparison
 
*Fri PM through Sat AM*

Detailed evaluation all speakers
1 to 1.5 hours per set
position & toe-in for imaging & soundstage, Cardas guidelines starting point
each speaker (L & R), 3 FR plots (6 in apart) with REW at PLP
tube amp "A" to start, others as time allows
4 agreed-upon test tracks, plus others as time allows
no sub
frequent ear breaks out of the room
 
Detailed evaluation all tube amps - Saturday morning first thing when ears are fresh
1 to 1.5 hours
1 speaker pair
 
*Sat PM*

Final speaker choices
with and without subs
 


*The Two-Channel Speaker Evaluation Giveaway Challenge Poll*

Here is one of the neat parts about this evaluation... if you can guess which speakers (via this thread's poll) I will choose for my two-channel system, you will qualify for the giveaway.

*Qualifications for the giveaway are as follows*:

You must be registered at the time of this thread posting.
You must have at least 25 posts at the time of the evaluation posting and chosen speaker announcement (To Be Announced - so don't waste time). (Members who currently have 25 posts already meet this qualification.)
You must vote in the poll within this thread and explain why you voted the way you did in this thread. You may change your vote within 24 hours of voting by PM'ing me.
Those members who meet these qualifications and vote for the speakers that I ultimately choose will be entered into the giveaway drawing.

So what will you win? $500 CASH! (PayPal Gift or HTS Company Check) This opens up the giveaway for any of our members living on planet earth to enter!

That's the Two-Channel Speaker Evaluation Giveaway Challenge!

NOTE: There will probably be another giveaway that will require voting in this poll, so voting has its advantages. :T

NOTE: Staff members not participating in the event may also vote, however they will not qualify for the giveaway.


*Conclusion*

To Be Announced!


*Image Note:* We are missing two speakers in the first image until they arrive. There is also a stand-in for the seventh speaker. The image will be updated as soon as the other speakers arrive and can be added.


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## Tonto

Hey Sonnie, 

What a great event, I'm really looking forward to it. Now I just need to figure out how to get to your house! It looks like I should go through Dothan & up to Troy & over to you. From Troy over I'm not sure the best path, any suggestions? You can PM me any specifics.


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## MrAcoustat

My vote goes to Magnepan MG-12s for music but for noise then it's something else.

Sorry i forgot to ask, is this for 2 channel or home theater ?????


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## Sonnie

Tonto said:


> Hey Sonnie,
> 
> What a great event, I'm really looking forward to it. Now I just need to figure out how to get to your house! It looks like I should go through Dothan & up to Troy & over to you. From Troy over I'm not sure the best path, any suggestions? You can PM me any specifics.


PM sent! Looking forward to seeing you here. :T




MrAcoustat said:


> Can't be there but my vote is there, dollar for dollar NOTHING beats a full range panel NOTHING.


I think that may be true to a point, but not necessarily dollar for dollar, otherwise there would not be people selling their maggies and buying dynamic speakers costing less... and everyone would own full panel planars. Keep in mind too that full panel does not necessarily translate to full range. Those lower end models don't extend quite as far as many of the dynamic speakers costing the same or less. That can make a difference in what people will buy. Bottom line... there are those who like them... and there are those who are not as fond of that sound. I like my MartinLogans, which are as close to full panel as I have heard, but there are several other type speakers that I have heard at the various audiofest, some costing less, that I would definitely consider trading for, however I am not quite ready to swap out my HT system yet. It may not be too long before I do though. I want to attend RMAF first and see what I hear there.

I would suggest voters keep in mind that this is what you think I will believe sounds the best for me, not what you believe will sound the best to you, although that may be all you have to go on.


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## Chudik

What a great adventure!!!
I did not listen most of these speakers, but heard many good things about couple of them and one of these pairs is in my system. However, I will definitely read this thread and especially the result.

*Sonnie*, I have a couple of questions:
1. I did not notice a speaker switch in your equipment. Are you going to use any?
2. Could you publish frequency responses of 2-3 finalists after you choose the ONE you will keep for yourself? I hope you will make the measurement with your great REW5 tool.
3. Are you going to test the speakers only in Pure direct mode or with using Audyssey XT32 as well using your Denon 4520 as a preamp?


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## MrAcoustat

Of course it's a question of tastes, the only full range panels lower than $1,000.00 are Magnepan Martin Logan are mostly 95% hybrids and to me that as nothing to do with full range panels small panels less bass TRUE but it's quality bass and i will choose quality over quantity ANYTIME but that's ME i agree they are not for everybody.


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## TheGovernment

I voted for the Klipsch. After setting up close to 100 HT's, The big maggies, although wonderful with music just are not great at higher volume dynamics that are needed for an HT. I've setup systems when the owners dropped the maggies upon hearing a proper HE speaker in a HT setting.
Klipsch seem to get a bad rap for being to harsh and seem to get looked over because of it but I think they will be the best of the bunch for outright dynamic punch for the movies, though I haven't heard every set of the speakers, I have heard so many types, you can't keep score. Nothing beats a good HE speaker in a HT setting. 
I run a full JTR setup and just knowing how much better eve my T12's at the time were better than my Paradimg sig 8's were was amazing, I personally will never own a non HE speaker in my HT again.

If for some reason I won a set, I'd like Sonnie to donate the speakers to a good local charity, kids center or some place that someone could maybe get interested in our awesome hobby.


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## mdanderson

I voted for the Vandersteens because they simply hold up over time and they have a great reputation.


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## Sonnie

Chudik said:


> What a great adventure!!!
> I did not listen most of these speakers, but heard many good things about couple of them and one of these pairs is in my system. However, I will definitely read this thread and especially the result.
> 
> *Sonnie*, I have a couple of questions:
> 1. I did not notice a speaker switch in your equipment. Are you going to use any?
> 2. Could you publish frequency responses of 2-3 finalists after you choose the ONE you will keep for yourself? I hope you will make the measurement with your great REW5 tool.
> 3. Are you going to test the speakers only in Pure direct mode or with using Audyssey XT32 as well using your Denon 4520 as a preamp?


1. No, we will not have a speaker switch. We do not want to set them up side by side... we need all of them to have their very own spot without any interference from other speakers. Some may need to actually share a spot too. We will work with each pair of speakers independently of the others... with the others out of the way.

2. Yes, we will at minimum publish primary listening position frequency response graphs. We may do some other measurements as well... and if we do, we will likely publish those graphs.

3. Most likely we will simply use Pure Direct mode when using the Denon 4520. Once we narrow it down to a couple of speakers, if we have time we may run Audyssey... if it makes sense and we think it is needed.

Things and procedures are subject to change once we get going, as this is the first time we have done anything like this before, so it is somewhat of a trial and error gig.


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## Josuah

I voted for the Vandersteens. I personally think the Magnepans could be better (although I prefer the more expensive ones) but from your choice of gear I suspect you might prefer the Vandersteens instead. Maybe the Tekton but I'm not as familiar with that brand.


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## gorb

I'm voting for the ARX speakers, mostly due to other people's reviews as well as photos of the drivers and cabinets that I've seen. They seem pretty robust, made with high quality parts and solid quality control. I unfortunately do not have experience with any of the speakers on the list though. The HTDs, Vandersteens, and Focals also interest me as well.

I guess it all depends on what sort of sound character you like, though, since I'm sure some of the speakers will sound very different. It's a hard question to answer


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## etcarroll

Another Vandie vote, they have a superb, warm sound, and when set up correctly they throw a fine soundstage. And when paired with vinyl they really shine.


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## macmovieman

Voted for Vandersteen 2Ce.


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## jmschnur

The ML line as evolved over the years. The Motion speakers make it possible to enjoy some of the clarity that Martin Logan is known for at a much lower price.

They are also excellent for surrounds in many applications.


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## hwkn

I voted for the Klipsch speakers because they're among the best speakers one can buy at that price imho.


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## moparz10

my vote is for the tekton model lore,having listened to their pendragon series at a friends home i was impressed and have continued to do some research on other models as the model lore,their thinking outside the box,still hand makng speakers that do a verry good job at reproducing the actual event.an upcomming internet company,these are some of my reasons why tetkon received my vote.
a few words and thanks to sonnie and HTS,while on my lunch break at work this (saturday) logged on to get my daily HTS fix i stumbled upon this event,read thru it and thought what a great idea,once i was done reading i then decided to check my e-mail and found i had been notified of this event via e-mail now i can't think of any other forums that do this.Thank you HTS and sonnie i sincerely hope you guys have a blast in testing and best of luck to all.


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## thatsnasty

hwkn said:


> I voted for the Klipsch speakers because they're among the best speakers one can buy at that price imho.


I voted as well, just because I'm a long time Klipsh fan, turned DIY.
Id love to know how some more "commercial" speakers with waveguides perform.


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## chashint

I voted for the Klipsch RF-62 to win.
For me this is just lobbing a grenade since the only other speaker I have heard out of the group is the Martin Logan Motion 12.
Between these two the Klipsch have better clarity and definition which I prize.
IMO at each price point Klipsch is very competitive and sounds good tomy ear.
Looking forward to reading the comments for each speaker.


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## Greenster

I love head to head comparisons. I am not familiar with any and am still very new to this stuff. I am going to do my research but it is fun to watch which ones you all like. I wonder which of you Sonny is more alike?
Thanks to making this forum fun.


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## botstein

I voted for the Klipsch. Like you said, people either love them or hate them - I think that you might love them.


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## paulster

I'm going to go for the Tekton Lores. Although I haven't heard this particular model my experience with a couple of their other models leaves me with little doubt that these will also punch firmly above their weight, so I think that's going to give them an advantage here.

I'm really looking forward to the results, whatever they may be though.


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## macmovieman

I would select a different speaker depending on the music I listen to...


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## rongon

I may not have the requisite 25 posts (I think I do) but I voted anyway. I think the Focal's will turn out to be an all-around, works great for anything type of speaker for you. While the Maggies may captivate you on small scale acoustic music, they take horrendous amounts of power to really wake up and sparkle, and I think they'll go flat with the tube amps on large scale orchestral music and loud pop music. I could be wrong and you'll prefer the Vandersteen's, or something else. The Focal speakers with inverted titanium domes I've heard over the years sometimes have a sizzly thing happening way up high, which might prove bothersome. It's hard to say. But I've found their drivers to be really "fast" and clear sounding, and they are typically quite sensitive too (always a good thing for HT or dynamic music). So that's what I guessed, and those are some reasons why. Enjoy the auditioning, it sounds like a lot of fun. I hope you find the time to give us detailed descriptions of all these speakers. Would be very informative. Thanks!

PS - Too bad used 'classics' can't be included in the shootout. I'd be curious what you would think of Snell Type C. I heard a pair of the Type Ci (Kevin Voecks' first re-do of the C) and thought they were really special. I'm lucky to have a pair of Type C (last design by Peter Snell) which I'm finding hard to beat.


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## tcarcio

I am choosing the A5's. I haven't heard any of the speakers in the shootout but it seems they are geared well for 2 channell listening and so I will give them some love.....


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## pharoah

i voted for the tekton lore.from what i keep hearing about those.they will be hard to beat in that price range.


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## macmovieman

I am very interested in seeing how the Focal's will rate at that price point.


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## NBPk402

I voted for the MLs... I think that ML makes great sounding speakers and will ultimately be the chosen ones (plus Sonnie has MLs already ). I used to own some ML Sequel ii speakers and I gotta tell ya I miss em!


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## afterlife2

I voted for the A5's after hearing great things about their speakers, especially since Jman liked them. He knows his stuff.


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## DjPerfectTrip

I picked Klipsch because it's what I have and I love them. I have no experience with any of the others, but I'm confident you will like the Klipsch speakers. Whether or not you will like them more than others is obviously going to be a matter of personal preference, but I think they have a great shot =^)


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## PoTee

I voted for the Vandersteen 2ce as everything I've heard about them has been good


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## theJman

The A5's do require a bit of attention with regards to aiming -- and benefit from a long break in period -- but if you give them their due they will reward you with very detailed and precise sound. Value wise, at least, I would be surprised if they don't come out on top; dollar-for-dollar they are hard to beat. Not only did I have the A1/A2 that were reviewed I also had a pair of A5's for a while, so I do have experience with those as well.


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## ilok

Klipsch RF-62 II, they work great with Audyssey


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## domwilson

I voted for the "maggies". They have an "airy" sound that blends well with the right sub. The sound is unobtrusive and tight. But will really sing when called upon to do so. I own a pair of MMG's and couldn't be more satisfied. The only downside to the choice will be placement. But for really great sound, people often make the necessary adjustments to achieve audio bliss.


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## Dwight Angus

I voted for the Lores. They have great bass extension


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## B- one

I went with the Lores,I really like there look. Hopefully Sonny likes the lightest speakers we don't need him in the hospital with back problems.


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## mjcmt

My vote goes for the Focal speakers because they are articulate, clear and dynamic. A great match with tube gear, but equally ate home with a HT receiver where the eq will give them a balanced yet dynamic sound. JM Labs is a great company.


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## jplesset

I'm not actually going to vote, as I've not heard any of the speakers under test. Heard Maggies maybe 25 years ago, and sold many.... I've not heard anything I wanted to replace my KEF 101/4x 10" sub system with.


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## 94vg30de

Voting for the Klipsch RF-62 II because I think you are going to to prefer the pattern control of the horn. As you say, people either like it or they hate it, but I think if you like it, nothing else will sound quite right to you. And you wouldn't be wrong for thinking that


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## gtpsuper24

I'm voting for the A5s but i'm biased as i'm an A5 owner. I agree with Jim the A5 is probably the best dollar for dollar speaker in the lineup. Definitely the bang for the buck leader, IMO.


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## MrAcoustat

*Hi Sonnie sorry for asking again but i want to know it is VERY important to me, will your testing be for a 2 channel setup or home theater. thank's*


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## JimShaw

I did not vote because I would not have a clue. I wish I did but my situation has never allowed me to get involved with towers.

My surround is in the family room. That room is also used for 20-25 friends twice a week. When we purchased our home, I made an agreement with my wife that I could do or spend anything for my surrounds as long as it was hidden. That to me was a great compromise.

I have 5 SpeakerCraft AIM8 Fives and 3 SpeakerCraft Time Fives along with 2 HSU 12" mid base and 1 SVS PB13-Ultra.

All hidden. Even the big SVS sub is not really noticed. It is under the table where the lamp is sitting 










Time Fives move out of the ceiling to aim at the perfect spot. Great used as Wides for in ceiling speakers










Makes everyone happy. Even though I would have loved towers, it is not in the future for me.

I will be reading this thread with excitement and a little envy.

Now, don't say I am PWed. One gets to a point in life where he finally understands that making a wife happy really does make the home happy.



m


----------



## ironglen

I vote for the Arx A5 as I think the planar tweeter will sound detailed while the overall speaker packs a lot of value at the price point.


----------



## paulster

MrAcoustat said:


> *Hi Sonnie sorry for asking again but i want to know it is VERY important to me, will your testing be for a 2 channel setup or home theater. thank's*


2 channel



Sonnie said:


> The goal is to find a pair of speakers for my personal two-channel system, which will be setup within my dedicated home theater room.


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## babyboy1984

I voted for Focal Chorus 716V because I had a chance to listen to them at my cousin house.They are way better than the Polk audio rti a5 I am having.:T


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## Sonnie

macmovieman said:


> I would select a different speaker depending on the music I listen to...


That is not a bad idea... and I have suggested somewhere that I may end up keeping two pair. :huh:



rongon said:


> I may not have the requisite 25 posts (I think I do) but I voted anyway.


You don't have to have 25 posts to vote, but you will have to have 25 posts before I announce the speakers I have chosen in order to qualify for the $500 cash giveaway. Of course you also have to vote correctly, and even I don't know the answer to that one yet.



rongon said:


> I'd be curious what you would think of Snell Type C.


I owned Snell B-Minors at one time... back in 1991. I actually had a full Snell 5 speakers surround system. You certainly don't see many Snell speakers around these days... especially in mint condition.



jplesset said:


> I'm not actually going to vote, as I've not heard any of the speakers under test. Heard Maggies maybe 25 years ago, and sold many.... I've not heard anything I wanted to replace my KEF 101/4x 10" sub system with.


I tried very hard to find a pair of KEF's that would work. I almost had a pair of Q900's, but could not get it worked out. There were some Q700's around, but not in black.



MrAcoustat said:


> *Hi Sonnie sorry for asking again but i want to know it is VERY important to me, will your testing be for a 2 channel setup or home theater. thank's*


Two-channel ... strictly 2-channel. :T

It has truly be enjoyable reading the responses, not that I expected anything less. What seems weird is that I have no idea how I would vote if I could vote... that is how unsure I am. I truly believe that every speaker has an opportunity to wow me or I don't think I would have included it... and one reason why I decided to drop a few of them from the line.


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## JBrax

I own and love my Klipsch rf-82 ii's and really think they excel for home theater. I do think that I would have chosen a different speaker for 2 channel listening though. So if the vote had been for home theater I would cast it for the Klipsch but I'm afraid for 2 channel the rf-62 ii's may not come out on top.


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## Sonnie

If anyone wants to change their vote, please let me know. We can accommodate that as long as you let me know within 24 hours of voting. You can only change it once.


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## MrAcoustat

Thank's for the answer.


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## Altoman188

My vote goes to Focal. I voted for these largely due to the fact that i have had the opportunity to hear them and they are incredible.
Also my first post and i thought this would be a fun thread to start in :T


----------



## Chudik

Sonnie said:


> 1. No, we will not have a speaker switch.


So, it won't be a blind test... Well... When I choose speakers for me I would not recognize a difference for the last two pairs without switching and knowing which one is playing. Both played well for my ears and the difference was so tiny...



> 2. Yes, we will at minimum publish primary listening position frequency response graphs. We may do some other measurements as well... and if we do, we will likely publish those graphs.


Thanks. I think it would be useful to show graphs for the worse that you listened and decided to get rid off immediately and for the last finalists. It's actually quite interesting. When I choose mine, I made some notes during listening and after that I've found explanations for my notes on the graphs.



> 3. Most likely we will simply use Pure Direct mode when using the Denon 4520. Once we narrow it down to a couple of speakers, if we have time we may run Audyssey... if it makes sense and we think it is needed.


Definitely, choosing the speakers must be done in Pure Direct.  However, such good equalization system as XT32 make very good job. May be not for this thread, but would be very interesting to compare sound of the chosen speakers with and without Audyssey with tube amps as well.


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## fixr

I say the A5's will rock your room in a way you'll find quite surprising!


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## Kobrakalla

I vote for the Focal Chorus 716V because I belive that is a very good allround speaker.


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## hyghwayman

Sonnie :thankyou:

I also received a email notice about this event and couldn't wait to kick my wife off the pc so I could read all about it. After a moment though I :surrender:to the fact it may be best to wait for her to finish playing her FB game :thud: 

With that being said, I casted my vote for the *Klipsch RF-62 II* speakers based solely on what I've read about the brand over the last 5 years. I wish I could be a fly on the wall as I've never heard any of these speakers in person and your getting to do it in your listening room - too cool. So I'll eagerly be awaiting the outcome of this speaker evaluation.


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## recepky

hi
I voted for *htd level three* because of some reviews I read about it, but never auditioned them. and I like their driver structure that looks like specially chosen for smooth transition between frequency distubution, from low end to hign end. 2" mid range dome will create the sound most of the speakers miss, I think.


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## pelliott321

I think this is monstrous undertaking that will be fruitful. I am always amazed that enthusiasts go to such lengths to pursue the hobby. Anyway....
Choosing a speaker to vote for is difficult. I owned Vandys 2ce's for along time before I got the Maggy bug and rebuilt a pair of Maggy llla's three years ago and still listening to. The openness of the Vandys led me to the Maggys.
Since I believe Maggys need a lot of work from stock to get to sound good. I feel most maggys except the latest .7 series of the 3 or 20 are really junky pieces of , very cheaply constructed, with minimum quality, I would have to vote for the Vandersteen. This speaker was an incredible value, well built, with quality components


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## lcaillo

What kind of work do you feel that the Magnepans need?


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## dschlic1

I have a klipsch F-30 7.1 speaker system. During the purchasing process, I auditioned four or five different speaker systems. The Kilpsch were the best of the lot. My usahe is 75% music and 25% home theater.


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## recepky

hi

I auditioned *magnepan mg12* in a very small room with a sub and without a sub 2 years ago what I remember about them is I didnt like them very much I dont know why maybe the missing bottom end =)


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## grasshopper1

I voted for the Focals. They produce stunning soundstage and delicious mids and highs for their price point. Paired with a good sub, these would be a great choice.


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## rongon

I have some experience with Klipsch RF-3, which is an older, similar model to the RF-62 in the evaluation. I only listen to 2 channel stereo. I listen to the music using a push-pull 2A3 amplifier, because I've never found anything that sounded better within its 6 watts per channel (class A) limits. Sure, if I really needed 50 watts per ch then I'd need a bigger beast. But it wouldn't sound as good. I don't know why, exactly, but I have my unproven opinions on the matter  I have some other reasonably good amps to compare them with, such as Hafler P1000, Dynaco Stereo 70 and Panasonic SA-XR57 receiver. 

I really wanted to love those RF-3's. My PP2A3 amp drove them superbly well. The reason I didn't choose the Klipsch for this shootout was because I believe the newer model will still have a similar fault, and that's in the high frequencies. The Klipsch Tractrix horns all use a square diffraction throat with sharp edges. According to Earl Geddes, Wayne Parham, Zilch, et al, these sharp diffraction throats are the cause of High Order Modes (HOM's), which cause harshness in the sound from reflections and multiple delays. The sound I heard in the RF-3's was a harsh 'spittiness' to the highs, which made frequencies in the 10kHz vicinity sound boosted. Everything had that sort of electronic sizzle riding over it. Otherwise, the speakers were spectacularly good for the little money they cost second-hand. I think the ceramic-metallic mid-woofers are really fine. Super-fast and detailed sounding. Great bass too. Something like a true 94 or 95dB/1W/1m sensitivity. My PP2A3 amp easily made them play really loud. I ultimately sold them to a friend who went on to add a pair of RB-5's and an RC-3 for 5.1. He raves about the setup for PC games and movies. (He doesn't listen to much music.) 

I found that with orchestral/classical music, the RF-3's gave a sort of movie soundtrack coloration to the sound. Everything sounded cinematic. Full, detailed, but somehow overcooked, or overblown. They did best with contemporary small group music, something like a Cassandra Wilson or Norah Jones album. Puts you in the club, so to speak. Like the best club sound system you could ask for. I imagine the newer RF-62's will have some nice refinements, but that Klipsch house sound is a sort of love-it-or-hate-it kind of thing. Personally, I love the detail and the high sensitivity, but I don't like the 'club sound' 'in-yer-face' aspect. 

Maggies are at the extreme opposite end of the spectrum. Super detailed and relaxed on orchestral and acoustic music, like 'you are there.' But super low sensitivity (I think 83dB/1W/1m or thereabouts). To get any dynamics at all out them you need massive amounts of current drive from the amps. BIG power supplies and lotsa watts. With louder (pop, rock, latin, etc.) music and with most amps Maggies usually sound 'sleepy.' But on the right music they sound utterly captivating. 

I've heard older Vandersteen models, and liked them. I don't know if the new ones have anything to do with the classics. So I don't know. I imagine the Vandersteen won't be a very high sensitivity speaker, so again, might be a problem for the tube amps. 

I once auditioned a pair of Martin Logan 'stats, many years ago, comparing them to B&W 801's (it was that long ago), driven by top-shelf Bryston amps. I really did not like the M-L's. Beamy, harsh upper mids. I also heard a pair for an extended time in a friend's man cave. These were really big M-L's, back about the year 2000. They were good, but nothing to write home about. I understand that the 'stat panels will take a lot of current drive from the amps, so once again, I wonder how they'll react to being driven by tube amps. Too bad there's not a Quad ESL-63 or something like that for comparison. What a lovely speaker that is. 

I don't know much about the other choices. 

So I'm sticking with the Focal. I know that's a high quality speaker, because I once tried to build a speaker with Focal drivers, and those were of very high quality design, materials and workmanship. They also were fairly high sensitivity (for a cone-and-dome design). Too bad I could never figure out crossovers. But that's another story... 
--


----------



## J&D

Another vote for the Vandersteen's. For two channel they should do very well but in this price range you have some interesting competition.


----------



## Sunlesstrawhat

I chose the Arx A5s because I have these towers and the tweeter and xbl2 drivers are amazing.


----------



## bibeed

I voted for the HTD Level 3. Mainly because I own the Level 3 bookshelves and Level 3 center channel speaker and they sound fantastic. I can only imagine that the towers are even more impressive. Although you would get them in black, the finish of my dark cherry bookshelves is really beautiful. Top notch Kapton ribbon tweeter as well, which have great resolution and brilliancy without being fatiguing at loud listening levels, as well as very wide horizontal dispersion. I suspect the Arx A5 could be similar, but I have not heard it or the other speakers on the list. I do know that I have been extremely satisfied with my HTD Level 3 bookshelves. Sounds like a fun time will be had evaluating all of those.


----------



## Horrorfan33

I think it will come down to the Klipsch and the Martin Logans...I chose the Logans to pull it out in the end..I have heard these pushed to the limits and was truly amazed by the rich, robust sound, especially for the money!!


----------



## rwmcfa1

voted for the Klipsch, just a guess.


----------



## carp

I voted for the Maggies. 

Tough call though... if this were for HT I would not have voted that way but since this is 2 channel (I assume all music?) that pushed me towards Magnepan. 

I haven't heard this model before but I used to own the MMG's and IMO they were one of the best deals in audio for only 600 for the pair. Now, I used them with subs of course because the bass is lacking. But the highs and the soundstage was great for such a cheap speaker.

I have since moved on to a high effeciency speaker (JTR Noesis 212's) and they are better than the Maggies in every way and it's not close but they should be considering the price.

Back to your comparison. I assume no subs will be used? If that's the case the Maggies have much less of a chance and I'm sure you know this already but Magnepans are so picky when it comes to placement. In my room I had to have them a minimum of 3 feet from the front wall and 4 feet was even better. 

Great idea, love the thread and I'll stay tuned for this for sure.


----------



## DjPerfectTrip

Nice, Klipsch took the lead =^)


----------



## jumiferriol

voted for the Klipsch.


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## ro7939

I picked Tekton Model Lore for several reasons. 

Because of the drivers employed, Tekton is likely the most efficient speaker of the bunch, the Klipsch being second. (I have recent Klipsch experience. Klipsch overstates sensitivity by 4-6 dB.) Sensitivity is critical because speakers tend to audibly thermal limit well below their maximum rated "RMS" input power. Some including myself specify 1/10th the RMS figure as the "1 dB dynamic compression" point. Even though speakers in this price category might typically safely handle "100Wrms" input power, they tend to audibly clip musical peaks beyond 1/10th their RMS power rating. 

Check the sensitivity specs and do the math (subtract 4-6 dB from Klipsch's ridiculous spec). Manufacturers routinely over state sensitivity because it's a critical spec that largely determines overall performance. Check the speaker's acoustic output at 1/10th it's maximum RMS power rating. 

The room *volume* is larger than average for music reproduction (volume is three dimensions, simple floor area is only two dimensions and misleading). The larger the room volume the greater is weighting for sensitivity.

Unfortunately Tekton does not allow on-site visitors to hear their speakers, or I would have by now (I live only minutes away from them). In fact they did not reply to my email, and same for another person who emailed them. Even though I've not heard them, one person whose opinion I highly respect loves his Tektons (owned two models). Also, a professional reviewer (Andrew Robinson IIRC) favorably compared Tekton's $2500 flag ship to Wilson's $75k model.

I predict Tekton by good margin. I'm "long" on Tekton. 

Sorry I missed it in the setup if it's there: How closely will you match SPL and by what method? This is critical when comparing speakers, and fail if levels are not matched within tight window. I can't recall the maximum window height, but it might be as small as .1 dB. Humans almost always and immediately identify louder as better in such comparisons. 

Thinking more about this, maybe I should shut up. The Tekton is the loudest of the bunch, so if you don't control for gain the Tekton should be a shoe-in!

I heard and loved ML's smaller/smallest Motion series with Heil's folded ribbon tweeter (similar to the Arx tweeter). Later I heard a floor standing Motion tower at CES, and preferred the much smaller Motion. It's not uncommon to prefer the same company's smaller speaker over a similar larger model. 

BTW, as a "Scripturalist," one of the joys of this website is never seeing any form of the Savior's name used in vain. It's funny how other web sites encourage such misuse while disallowing other forms of alleged "hate" speech.


----------



## needspeed52

ARX5, truly an amazing speaker, used in both HT and stereo (two channel) listening, I'm from the camp that a good speaker should sound good in either application, I don't believe tha ARX5 was designed to be used in either application, it is just that good.


----------



## carp

needspeed52 said:


> ARX5, truly an amazing speaker, used in both HT and stereo (two channel) listening, I'm from the camp that a good speaker should sound good in either application, I don't believe tha ARX5 was designed to be used in either application, it is just that good.


Agreed, that's why I ended up selling my Magnepans. Not that they didn't sound good for HT, but they lacked dynamics that's for sure. 

I assumed he was just comparing music - if it's HT too, I would have voted differently.


----------



## ro7939

TheGovernment said:


> I voted for the Klipsch. After setting up close to 100 HT's, The big maggies, although wonderful with music just are not great at higher volume dynamics that are needed for an HT. I've setup systems when the owners dropped the maggies upon hearing a proper HE speaker in a HT setting.
> Klipsch seem to get a bad rap for being to harsh and seem to get looked over because of it but I think they will be the best of the bunch for outright dynamic punch for the movies, though I haven't heard every set of the speakers, I have heard so many types, you can't keep score. Nothing beats a good HE speaker in a HT setting.
> I run a full JTR setup and just knowing how much better eve my T12's at the time were better than my Paradimg sig 8's were was amazing, I personally will never own a non HE speaker in my HT again.
> 
> If for some reason I won a set, I'd like Sonnie to donate the speakers to a good local charity, kids center or some place that someone could maybe get interested in our awesome hobby.


Very interesting, and very OT. This is a music playback only contest, not HT.


----------



## grey9hound

Well, 
I would like to ask one question. I don't think i saw it anywhere here. What type or types of music do you listen to ? This would possibly affect your choice of speakers .


----------



## ro7939

DjPerfectTrip said:


> Nice, Klipsch took the lead =^)


Correctly voting for/predicting the winner in the upcoming neutral speaker comparison qualifies the voter as a potential winner of a $500 raffle. Specifically, the more a voter views this as a popularity poll the less likely are they to pick the winner, and hence disqualify his/her self from a chance to win $500.

This means: the less knowledge one has about all the contestants the greater is the likelihood one will miss the winner and disqualify one self from the $500 raffle. 

It's absolutely no coincidence that the two companies with the largest ad budget are 1-2 in polling. Voters are apparently voting as if this is a popularity contest. 

And that's fine by me!


----------



## ro7939

grey9hound said:


> Well,
> I would like to ask one question. I don't think i saw it anywhere here. What type or types of music do you listen to ? This would possibly affect your choice of speakers .


Oooooohhhhhh, very sharp question, and one I did not consider....anxiously awaiting reply!


----------



## Nerve8

Ha, after lurking for years, here is my first post I think...

I voted for the tektons. I have even pining or a set for a long time and based on the research I have on, I anticipate them having a good howitzer in this price range. Looking forward to "hearing" what the panel thinks...

Have fun!


----------



## needspeed52

ro7939 said:


> Correctly voting for/predicting the winner in the upcoming neutral speaker comparison qualifies the voter as a potential winner of a $500 raffle. Specifically, the more a voter views this as a popularity poll the less likely are they to pick the winner, and hence disqualify his/her self from a chance to win $500.
> 
> This means: the less knowledge one has about all the contestants the greater is the likelihood one will miss the winner and disqualify one self from the $500 raffle.
> 
> It's absolutely no coincidence that the two companies with the largest ad budget are 1-2 in polling. Voters are apparently voting as if this is a popularity contest.
> 
> And that's fine by me!


+1111111 Obviously the the two top votes are the most sold speaker, how many models in their line do they have, one can only guess. Coincidence, I don't think so. Sorry I don't want to get off topic but some of the other brands have a limited line and not much exposure except user and rare pro reviews.


----------



## JCharger13

While I have no Experiance with any of the speakers in this evaluation from what I have read the inverted Beryllium dome of the Focal is to die for. I realize these are not the same tweeters but do utilize the inverted design, this is the only reason that I voted for them. I did a little research on the others also but these Focals stood out in my mind for some reason. Maybe it's just a branding thing. Idk.


----------



## Red Horn

Vandersteen Audio is an often overlooked Tour de force that IMO excels with their "out of the box" design elements. Therefor my vote goes to the 2Ce.


----------



## DjPerfectTrip

ro7939 said:


> Correctly voting for/predicting the winner in the upcoming neutral speaker comparison qualifies the voter as a potential winner of a $500 raffle. Specifically, the more a voter views this as a popularity poll the less likely are they to pick the winner, and hence disqualify his/her self from a chance to win $500.
> 
> This means: the less knowledge one has about all the contestants the greater is the likelihood one will miss the winner and disqualify one self from the $500 raffle.
> 
> It's absolutely no coincidence that the two companies with the largest ad budget are 1-2 in polling. Voters are apparently voting as if this is a popularity contest.
> 
> And that's fine by me!


It's all just a guess anyways. I chose Klipsch because that's what I have. Unfortunately I didn't have the opportunity to listen to any others, but I love the speakers. It's all going to come down to preference anyways, so anybody's guess is as good as anybody else's.


----------



## ro7939

Tekton employs bass instrument woofer with rigid accordian type surround common to pro sound/high sensitivity drivers. Regular audio speakers have half-roll foam or rubber surround. 

Rigid surrounds take longer than average to "season," I read up to 600 hours! Yikes! I'm sure they won't get 600 hours but hope they get more than the average burn in time.


----------



## Jason_Nolan

I'm slightly confused. Why buy cheaper speakers for music when you already have ML Prodigy speakers? You don't like the sound?


----------



## schmidtwi

People tend to stay with what they know, so my vote is for the MartinLogan Motion 12's.


----------



## rongon

Re: Focal speakers -- Inverted *beryllium* dome? Wow. Really? That's like the beryllium diaphragms in the TAD compression drivers. Way expensive, and hi-tech appealing. 

I looked at the Tekton website, at the Lore speaker. I found something interesting. Take a look at the woofer in the Lore. -- http://www.tektondesign.com/images/lorewithgrills.jpg

Now take a look at this -- http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=290-495

That's the same design woofer that formed the basis for the Zu Audio Omen, etc. 
http://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/omen-dirty-weekend ($999 a pair)

Also used in the Fastlane Audio Drift kit, here -- http://mysite.verizon.net/res12il11/id119.html

Tekton claims 98dB/1W/1m sensitivity, but as you can see from the 10" driver's specs, the SPL rating is more like 93dB/1W/1m. I really doubt the Lore is all that much more efficient than the Focals, for instance. But I could be wrong. Tekton may have some magic they're doing, like Zu Audio claims to have done. I also notice that neither Zu Audio nor Tekton have response curves/graphs posted, which gives me pause. But commercial speaker mfg's often don't post those. (Tannoy does for their studio monitors...) 

I would really like to hear the Zu and Tekton speakers, playing classical music especially. Right now I'm fumbling around with a Drift kit in a pair of Klipsch KG4.5 cabs. I compare them to the Snell C's, later I'll check my work with measurements. But I'm only able to get a couple dB more level out of the Drifts compared to the Snell C's. The Snells are rated 90dB/1W/1m, so I figure the Drifts are about 92 to 93dB. I can't see how the Tekton's could be more than that using the same driver. 

But again, I could be wrong. 
--


----------



## mlundy57

Of these I vote for the Vandersteen 2CE for listening by the same person most of the time from the same listening position. The qualifier is because Vandersteens have a wide horizontal sweet spot but a narrow (6 inch) vertical listening window. Because of this, setting up the Vandersteens with the proper amount of backward tilt is essential. The amount of tilt is based on a combination of ear height and distance from the speakers. There is a chart in the Vandersteen manual giving the amount of tilt based on these two factors.

I have listened to Vandersteen 1C and 2CE Signature speakers and was favorably impressed. I own a Klipsch Reference Series II 5.1 system and much prefer the Vandersteens. Can't say much about the rest of the speakers in this test as I have never heard them.


----------



## OZZIERP

I voted Maggies they seem to be in more 2 channel rigs than any other brand I have yet to give them a demo guess I am still in love with my Paradigm Studio's so I quit looking.


----------



## admranger

I voted for the Vandersteen speakers. They're old, like me, so you just know they are good. :sn:

I first heard these speakers years and years ago and they are very clean and true, especially if you listen to a lot of piano music.


----------



## koyaan

The Vanderstiens are awfully good, but I've got to expect the Maggies to pull through in the end.
You've done a great job of choosing the best equipment available in this price range!


----------



## Sonnie

I continue to appreciate all the various responses. It is really making the anticipation of listening to these speakers more and more exciting for me. 




ro7939 said:


> Sorry I missed it in the setup if it's there: How closely will you match SPL and by what method?


I have a Galaxy 140 SPL meter... and a calibrated UMIK-1 mic that is used with REW. I suspect we will use both, as we do want to get volume level matched as closely as possible.




carp said:


> I assumed he was just comparing music - if it's HT too, I would have voted differently.


Music only for this two-channel gig.




grey9hound said:


> Well,
> I would like to ask one question. I don't think i saw it anywhere here. What type or types of music do you listen to ? This would possibly affect your choice of speakers .


I listen to a pretty good variety, but I am not much on just sitting and listening to country or classical. For music listening I like Melody Gardot, Norah Jones, Gabriella Cilme, Amy Winehouse, Adele, Duffy, Flim & the BB's, Spyro Gyra, Yello... and then I also like everything Pink Floyd, David Gilmour, Roger Waters... and Robert Plant, Led Zeppelin, U2, Steely Dan, Phil Collins... and I am sure there are others that are not coming to mind at this particular moment. I think that is a good variety though.




ro7939 said:


> It's absolutely no coincidence that the two companies with the largest ad budget are 1-2 in polling. Voters are apparently voting as if this is a popularity contest.


I noticed Focal is in the lead now. What is somewhat ironic is that other than the Tekton speakers, I have read and heard less about the Focal speakers than any of the others. When I hear Focal, I immediately think car audio... and it wasn't until just a year or so ago that I fully realized Focal manufactured home speakers. I probably knew it ... as in I have probably seen reference to them somewhere in the past, but it just did not register with me. 

OTOH... Klipsch are advertised like crazy and I have seen them everywhere.




Jason_Nolan said:


> I'm slightly confused. Why buy cheaper speakers for music when you already have ML Prodigy speakers? You don't like the sound?


I anticipated this question and I did elaborate on that in the initial post, which I will copy and paste here: 

_There are some who will inevitably ask why I do not simply enjoy the MartinLogan Prodigy speakers as my primary two-channel listening speakers. They actually sound pretty good where they are, but would sound much better if I could get them out from the wall and moved closer in toward one another... and basically be able to better experiment with the placement. They are currently positioned so that they clear the sides of the rather large 125" projection screen. They sound wonderful for movies, with an enormously wide sound, yet imaging is dead on with two-channel music. Maybe that does not do justice in describing what you may want to hear, but I am very pleased with the sound for movies. These ML's also have spikes and are heavy... meaning these are not the kind of speaker you want to be moving back and forth from movie placement to two-channel placement. Regardless, if I used them, then I would not really need to do this speaker evaluation and I would miss out on all the fun we are going to have... who wants to spoil that? Not me!_




rongon said:


> That's the same design woofer that formed the basis for the Zu Audio Omen, etc.
> http://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/omen-dirty-weekend ($999 a pair)


I actually called Zu Audio and explained what we were doing here and inquired about their Omen, but they were somewhat short with me and if they discounted us as valid. I was turned off by the attitude, although the guy may have just been having a bad day. So I thought I would just wait a while and maybe consider them later. In the mean time I found out about Tekton and gave Eric a call... what a difference. A refreshing energetic and positive voice sold me on wanting to give his speakers a shot. The first thing I noticed about them is that they were very similar in appearance.


----------



## RodK

I voted for the Vandersteens. I have not heard most of these speakers, but from what I have read I think the Vandersteens will eek out the win.


----------



## Sonnie

Chudik said:


> So, it won't be a blind test... Well... When I choose speakers for me I would not recognize a difference for the last two pairs without switching and knowing which one is playing. Both played well for my ears and the difference was so tiny...
> 
> 
> Thanks. I think it would be useful to show graphs for the worse that you listened and decided to get rid off immediately and for the last finalists. It's actually quite interesting. When I choose mine, I made some notes during listening and after that I've found explanations for my notes on the graphs.
> 
> 
> Definitely, choosing the speakers must be done in Pure Direct.  However, such good equalization system as XT32 make very good job. May be not for this thread, but would be very interesting to compare sound of the chosen speakers with and without Audyssey with tube amps as well.


Yeah... no blind testing will be done for now. If it comes down to two or more pairs being that close, then I will just keep listening until I can figure it out. If they are than close, it may not matter much.

We should have graphs and comments for all of the speakers evaluated.

As long as running the 4520 as a preamp with the tube amps does not end up effecting the sound of the tube amps in a negative way, using Audyssey shoudn't be a


----------



## bghudson

I think the Vandersteens because they are extremely linear and the companies quality control is second to none.


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## Jason_Nolan

Sorry. Thanks for the reply, although you had already explained yourself. Time is short these days.


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## chaluga

Why the wait until November to tell us the results ? That.seems to take the excitement right out of the shootout .


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## mtbdudex

Besides following the placement guideline what will you do to the existing room acoustic treatments?
Will your graphs also include ETC charts?

2 years ago I was at a HT meet and spent time in this sweet 2-channel room, size is 13.5' x 20' .
monoblock solid state amps, bass traps, diffusers/treatments at precise points, what's not to like here??









For others that may not know, that's Jim Salk, he's been making speakers for 10 years.
Very nice person, the red ones are his.....









The gear rack.....


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## OZZIERP

Yeah Song Towers most talked about from Salk have a great reputation as with all of his .


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## Jon Liu

I voted for the Vandersteens. I've heard a handful (not all) of the speakers and those are my choice among the picks thus far! I look forward to hearing the overall consensus, though! I love comparisons/evaluations like these!!


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## Quiltzig

I'm with the Maggies for the most seamless and natural sound especially on music. Once you get a taste for boxless speakers then you will forever hear the box with conventional speakers. 1.7's give the best glimpse of high end for reasonable outlay however.


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## MrAcoustat

Quiltzig said:


> I'm with the Maggies for the most seamless and natural sound especially on music. Once you get a taste for boxless speakers then you will forever hear the box with conventional speakers. 1.7's give the best glimpse of high end for reasonable outlay however.


100% Correct, think outside the box.


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## keithsplace

Wow ! Awesome, wish I could be on the panel, sounds like a blast..no pun intended.


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## rolyatnayr

I think the Magnepans will fit the bill quite nicely for 2 channel music listening. They'll also be unobtrusive when you fire up the theater, visually and audibly.


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## Paulcet

Voted for the "Maggies". Not that I know about these things.... But the novelty of them seems to make sense to me. More than other novelties I've seen, anyway.


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## keithsplace

I am going to wild guess this one, as my Hi-Fi budget is not what is used to be, and has wondered over to the live music production end of the GAS spectrum. GAS that's GEAR AQUISITION SYNDROM for newbies.
Once bitten, Twice taken back baby.
But my tastes for sizzle in the mid through highs, but not harsh or strained to get there, I love the ribbons, & electrostatics, anything that gives the music air, breath, tonal separation in the mids and highs. Probably because of a punctured ear drum at an early age, but Tympanoplasty surgery does sometimes work, or somewhat. But it works in my case although a hearing test would reveal a slightly humped gragh, say toward the speak freqs. Ok done with health class.

But I just lean toward that crispy vocal band and the open sound stage in the middle that leans me toward the HTD Level THREE's as my bet for the winner. That is why I say guess, I don't get to buy goodies in the 10 Grants area much, unless it's paying a bill down the road.


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## Sonnie

chaluga said:


> Why the wait until November to tell us the results ? That.seems to take the excitement right out of the shootout .


Yeah... you are right. We may bump that up to September or so. I wanted to give plenty of time for voting, but I do think we need to release the results sooner. I will change it to TBA and we will talk about it among the panel, since we all may have something to write.




mtbdudex said:


> Besides following the placement guideline what will you do to the existing room acoustic treatments? Will your graphs also include ETC charts?


You can look at the room layout in the first post and see the acoustic panels indicated in brown (other than the ceiling). I have panels on all walls, three each on the side walls, ceiling ... and will add corner traps up front from floor to ceiling, which GIK is shipping this week. I do not have any diffusion, as the room is treated more so for home theater... and MartinLogans as close to the wall as mine are, really need absorption rather than diffusion (according to the ML gurus who have tested it). If I could get them on out into the room, it might be different, but I can't due to the width of the screen. Of course the theater part sounds pretty incredible as it is.

With the evaluation speakers as far out into the room as they will be, I don't think boundaries will be a major concern, but this is not something I understand that well. I am not all that familiar with ETC graphs either, but I think Wayne understands most all of the acoustic stuff, so I will defer that portion to him. 

---

On another note... I have 4 pairs of speakers hooked up now breaking them in all at the same time. 3 pair are hooked to my Denon 4520 and the other pair on one of the tube amps.


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## JBrax

Anybody else having trouble reading the yellow Klipsch stats? Can't make it out on my iPhone?


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## cavchameleon

I wish I could come and listen to all these speakers, would be great to listen to that many in the same price range in a great room!

I chose the Focals only because I'm more familiar with their sound and most of the models I've listened to sounded great within their price ranges. They have a great reputation for making some awesome speakers (many out of range for most of us to afford).


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## Mike0206

I voted vandersteens. I'm hoping sonnie likes them to! Lol! Never been a big fan of klipsch speakers either and I'm sure I'm in the minority there but the Martin Logan's and focals would also be high on my list. Never heard the arx or htd speakers so couldn't vote for them. Quality of the components on both vandersteen and focal speakers are top notch. I like a more laid back sound anyways and I think the vandersteens achieve that in spades. I'm not in to extremely bright and in your face sounding speakers and vandersteens have a real easy going way about them. Not sure if that makes sense to anybody or not but that's my take.


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## MrAcoustat

Mike0206 said:


> I voted vandersteens. I'm hoping sonnie likes them to! Lol! Never been a big fan of klipsch speakers either and I'm sure I'm in the minority there but the Martin Logan's and focals would also be high on my list. Never heard the arx or htd speakers so couldn't vote for them. Quality of the components on both vandersteen and focal speakers are top notch. I like a more laid back sound anyways and I think the vandersteens achieve that in spades. I'm not in to extremely bright and in your face sounding speakers and vandersteens have a real easy going way about them. Not sure if that makes sense to anybody or not but that's my take.


You are a very good candidate for Magnepan, you like a more laid back sound that's what you did say RIGHT.:clap:


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## eecyclone

I voted for Klipsch because they are the brand I'm the most familiar with although these models are above my price range still.


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## 3dbinCanada

I'm curious to know why PSB wasn't included in this mix. Few speakers can match their dynamics and linearity sounding good in both low and high level SPL .

If these speakers are two be used in a dual purpose role, ie HT and 2 channel, it will be a toss up between the Focals and the Tektons. If its strictly 2 channel, then the Vandies get my vote


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## Owen Bartley

Sonnie, that is a serious weekend you have ahead of you! I am definitely jealous of all the gear you get to audition, and the full-on audio weekend you have set up.

I think I'm going to choose the Focal Chorus 716V for you... I just have a good feeling about them. And I might be slightly swayed by how in awe I was of the Grande Utopias when I saw them at an audio show here a few years ago. I was torn between these and the Maggies, but I think that these will work better in your situation and will be easier to tuck away. Also, with those Maggies, if you do like them, it will only be a matter of time before you give in and upgrade to the full size. I think that is inevitable. 

Good luck, have fun, and I hope you find a winner!

_Edit: Hey, my vote tied the Focal with the Klipsch! (I replied and voted before I read other peoples' thoughts)_


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## MrAcoustat

3dbinCanada said:


> I'm curious to know why PSB wasn't included in this mix. Few speakers can match their dynamics and linearity sounding good in both low and high level SPL .
> 
> If these speakers are two be used in a dual purpose role, ie HT and 2 channel, it will be a toss up between the Focals and the Tektons. If its strictly 2 channel, then the Vandies get my vote


The answer to you're question was already asked and responded POST- 45 

MrAcoustat wrote: View Posts - 3 - 40 - 45 - just wanted to be SURE 
Hi Sonnie sorry for asking again but i want to know it is VERY important to me, will your testing be for a 2 channel setup or home theater. thank's

Answer: Two-channel ... strictly 2-channel.

Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...tion-home-audition-event-5.html#ixzz2cQ5pdl6o


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## jeffrobinson

I predict the Martin Logans. “What does he do, Clarice? What is the first and principal thing he does, what need does he serve by killing? He covets. How do we begin to covet? We begin by coveting what we see every day.” Dr. Hannibal Lecter


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## MrAcoustat

jeffrobinson said:


> I predict the Martin Logans. “What does he do, Clarice? What is the first and principal thing he does, what need does he serve by killing? He covets. How do we begin to covet? We begin by coveting what we see every day.” Dr. Hannibal Lecter


Come on Jeff, making a prediction after 273 votes are in, is not very fair.


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## Mike0206

MrAcoustat said:


> You are a very good candidate for Magnepan, you like a more laid back sound that's what you did say RIGHT.:clap:


I've only heard Maggie's once and it's been several years. It's possible when I listened to them my taste in sound was a bit different. That's maybe the reason they didn't stick out in my mind. I may have to revisit the Maggie's in the near future. Until then, got to stick with the vandersteens. Lol


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## MrAcoustat

Mike0206 said:


> I've only heard Maggie's once and it's been several years. It's possible when I listened to them my taste in sound was a bit different. That's maybe the reason they didn't stick out in my mind. I may have to revisit the Maggie's in the near future. Until then, got to stick with the vandersteens. Lol


Panels are NOT for everyone, BUT 95% of those that do like them will never go back to boxes, i have been an audiophile for more than 40 years and with Acoustat electrostatics for the last 30 of those years, one thing is certain i will leave this world BEFORE my Acoustats.:wave:


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## DjPerfectTrip

^^^Those things are crazy big =^o


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## jeffrobinson

Size queens... :rolleyesno: Kidding :joke:


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## MrAcoustat

DjPerfectTrip said:


> ^^^Those things are crazy big =^o


Those are the baby of the family, here is the father ( Acoustat DIY Spectra 8800 )


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## mltoront

My vote goes for Vandersteen 2Ce. Shopping for my first speakers back in 1988 with about a grand to spend I narrowed my choice down to the Vandersteens and a pair of 3A MMs.I bought the 3As MMs ,but now that the 3A cost about 3 grand and the Vandersteens still cost the same,...I'd probably go for the Vandersteens today.


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## DjPerfectTrip

MrAcoustat said:


> Those are the baby of the family, here is the father ( Acoustat DIY Spectra 8800 )


 I'd be curious to hear those.:blink:


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## Evoking1230

Without actually hearing the others, Im going with Klipsch RF-62 II, only because Ive heard them in person before. But theres always the possibility one of those are better.


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## Sonnie

3dbinCanada said:


> I'm curious to know why PSB wasn't included in this mix. Few speakers can match their dynamics and linearity sounding good in both low and high level SPL .


There are sooooo many I could have chosen, but we only have room for a few. I owned the PSB Image 6T's for HT and liked them really well, but never tried them in a two-channel setup. I guess simply because I had owned them previously and they fall into that more "traditional" speaker design, I passed on them. I believe the 5T's would have been the ones to try, IIRC. Maybe at a later date we will snag the higher end model for the $2500 speaker evaluation. :bigsmile:


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## BD55

I voted for the Klipsch set. Of the very few quality speakers I've heard, this is the only one of the bunch I can say I've heard, and to my untrained and inexperienced ear, they sounded great.


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## thejet95

My vote is for the Focal Chorus 716V. These are beautiful, and the dual 6.5 inch woofers will give a clean, tight, bass sound. Focal knows there stuff!


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## Tubaman

:T

Greetings!

You have a great set of choices and some excellent listening ahead of you. An old trick I learned when trying to evaluate speakers is to put a pair of over ear ear muffs (rating between 24dB and 29dB of protection is best) on for about 15 minutes before you start your listening session. This will give you a bit of a "clean palate" to start each session with and the isolation is also effective for allowing an easier refocusing of effort and energy.

The speakers I think you will is the Vandersteens. 

My reasoning is simple. They are not flashy or showy. When I have listened to them, I found them to be very neutral and not tiring to listen to. They didn't seem to require active energy to enjoy their presentation. Rather the sound just seemed to come out naturally and make you a piece of the furniture in the room.

Some of the speakers on your list have aggressive qualities and others have a distinct signature to them (e.g. a very forward high mid range projection). I didn't find much of that at all with the Vandersteens. In fact they may be described as somewhat boring and vanilla. For accurate and uncoloured listening, that is a label I tend to like.

Best of luck!

Allan - A Canadian Tubaman


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## lambeau

My vote is for the tekton lores . Very sensitive speakers and works well wirh tube amps and can also be driven hard with a solid state amp. Pro grade drivers can make it sound live as if you are there . No horns for two channel music .


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## JeffB

I think all Klipsch speakers have too much energy in 1k-3k band. I can't stand them.
I also don't like a lot of ribbon speakers. I auditioned Magnepan 1.7s and if you try playing Judas Priest at even slightly loud levels they sound terrible. Perhaps they were paired with the wrong amp, but I expect a dealer to figure that out. I don't like any of the Martin Logan Motion series. I once auditioned a Vandersteen model. I forget which one, but one of the least expensive ones. I wanted to experience the 1st order cross-over and see if made some really noticeable improvement. They seemed just ok, nothing special, nothing to make me think 1st order is the only way to go. Of all the speakers I have heard in recent memory a Focal bookshelf was one of the best sounding. I could have almost bought it, but it seemed to lack that really special sound that I am looking for. Nonetheless, for this thread, I have to go with Focal based upon my listening experiences. I have not heard the Arx A5, but that ribbon tweeter would make me cautious. I will say the folden ribbon in the Golden Ear Aon bookshelf is really good, but the bass tone of that speaker was odd. I haven't heard the HTD Level Three. I haven't heard the Tekton's. I would imagine the Tekton's having really good dynamics with the 10" driver, but lacking midrange detail. With my experience midrange detail goes up with smaller drivers at the expense of bass and dynamics. I am surprised there aren't more 3 way designs, but perhaps the extra cross-over effects the sound too much.


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## ovillegas

I vote for the Klipsch. The only ones I heard  Also, I'm a fan of Klipsch for the value. So if you chose that, I would expect some kind of quality for the money explanation.


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## powerlifter405

I just recently received my ARX5 and A1b's and both the wife and I are really impressed w/ them. I would have dealt w/ something reasonable but the wife would not have tolerated muddy sloppy bass or bright ear splitting highs. 

I've only had a few towers, pre-90's Sansui, MTX, Sony and Pioneer in my home and they all had different attributes. I know technology is newer but w/ my horrible hearing the Arx have been wonderful. I can hear dialogue in movies and music is clear and precise. The highs are hard to describe, they get louder w/ volume but never become piercing like my old Sansui's or the Klipsch i've heard. They fill my 40x18 w/ nicely. W/ a room that large a large sub would be helpful for movies but the A5 fill the room well and even w/ my 2113 maxed out, the sound reproduction is as clear and concise as the source. 

I'm no audiophile by any stretch of the imagination but I enjoy a good jam session and the A5 deliver. What's even more impressive, the first 2x8 hour stretches of music were all internet-classical and the wife was amazed. The A5's slowly graduated to a pandora mix of Slayer and Judas Priest. It handled the double bass in a rapid and solid manner, the screams of Halford came through clearly and the speed riffs of Terry King w/o issue or complaint. 

We listen to our new stereo setup daily and in just a first few days the sound has matured nicely and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them to someone else.


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## typ44q

My vote was for the Focal Chorus 716V, I have heard their smaller bookshelf speakers and was very impressed with them and can imagine that these sound even better. I was a bit surprised to see them with the most number of votes.


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## ButchP

The rules say that I have to explain how I voted, but don't really say how or where to proffer my explanation. Hope this suffices.
I'm going with the Vandersteens because I think that planar speakers are not well suited to the room conditions you've described. Being omnipolar, They depend heavily on room placement and are more dependent on location within the listening space to reinforce their presence than cone speakers. If your regular theater speakers are to remain in-place while your 2 channel ones are moved in and out, you may find that with the front wall occupied by your theater rig, placing and moving planar speakers could present some problems. If you were going to use tube amps I might give the Klipsch more attention but horns don't work for me in combination with solid state amps. The Focal speakers have a tweeter that sounds to bright and metallic for my tastes.
I have no personal experience with the Arx, Tekton, or HTD brands. May I reserve the right to change my vote after gaining some education/personal experience with those?


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## ButchP

I wish you could have included a couple more speakers in your audition. But these 7 seem to cover a lot of different ways to design a $1K speaker.


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## Nachmanowicz

+1 for the Vandersteen. It's been out there for quite a while and I believe is a perfect choice for a stereo setup. They're bass rich, very colored and such an all arounder, I can't think of anyone going wrong with 'em.


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## osv

i'm down for the vandersteens, they are classics that never grow old.


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## Sonnie

ButchP said:


> The rules say that I have to explain how I voted, but don't really say how or where to proffer my explanation. Hope this suffices.


From the qualifications in the first post:

_Qualifications for the giveaway are as follows:


You must be registered at the time of this thread posting.
You must have at least 25 posts at the time of the evaluation posting and chosen speaker announcement (To Be Announced - so don't waste time!). (Members who currently have 25 posts already meet this qualification.)
You must vote in the poll within this thread and explain why you voted the way you did in this thread. You may change your vote within 24 hours of voting by PM'ing me.
_



ButchP said:


> May I reserve the right to change my vote after gaining some education/personal experience with those?


I did state earlier that you can change your vote within 24 hours of voting. I have now added that to the qualifications. However, I don't suspect that will give you time to have "personal experience" with them.

Of course you also need more posts before being qualified. As do several others who have voted with less than 25 posts. Which is fine, 25 posts is not required to vote... only to be entered into the giveaway upon getting the vote right.




ButchP said:


> I wish you could have included a couple more speakers in your audition. But these 7 seem to cover a lot of different ways to design a $1K speaker.


8 is the number.... and that is quite a few for only two days and 4 individuals, when we also have four different amps.


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## tonyvdb

I voted for the Focal Chorus 716Vs as I think they have a design that will give very clean lows and the tweeter stile should give very rich highs that will lent its self to great imaging. I also really like the looks of these speakers as they would fit nicely in a livingroom that would most likely get the WAF in play.


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## admranger

I have to say that I am extremely intrigued by this comparison. It looks like a *massive* project, but one that would be a of a lot of fun to do. Of course, what works here may not work for me, as I have side walls to contend with... Any chance you can see which of the 8 speakers are less effected by side walls? :bigsmile:

After doing some more reading, I think it will be interesting to see how the Tekton Lore speakers do. Probably too big of a footprint for me, but still an interesting speaker.

Unfortunately, my space and WAF are both very limited :sad: so finding just the right speaker is a multidimensional puzzle. I need the narrow and deep format, which, unfortunately, precludes the Vandersteens... I have been looking for replacements for my B&W LCR6 speakers that occupy the, you guessed it, L, R, and C spots in my 5.2 system.

Good luck with the test!


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## chaluga

admranger said:


> I have to say that I am extremely intrigued by this comparison. It looks like a *massive* project, but one that would be a of a lot of fun to do. Of course, what works here may not work for me, as I have side walls to contend with... Any chance you can see which of the 8 speakers are less effected by side walls? :bigsmile:
> 
> After doing some more reading, I think it will be interesting to see how the Tekton Lore speakers do. Probably too big of a footprint for me, but still an interesting speaker.
> 
> Unfortunately, my space and WAF are both very limited :sad: so finding just the right speaker is a multidimensional puzzle. I need the narrow and deep format, which, unfortunately, precludes the Vandersteens... I have been looking for replacements for my B&W LCR6 speakers that occupy the, you guessed it, L, R, and C spots in my 5.2 system.
> 
> Good luck with the test!


I went from b&w lcr6 to tekton Oriel 10 which are very close to lores. It was a huge upgrade for me. Much more dynamic , and way for engrossing for movies.


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## Buggins

I was hovering between the ML's and the Focals, and I think I gotta vote for the Focals. I have yet to hear a Focal speaker that didn't sound incredibly rich and clean, even running on sub-par gear.


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## fokakis1

Magnepan MG12 + SVS 12 = 2 channel music:bigsmile:


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## ButchP

Thanks. I look forward to seeing your review comments.


----------



## PC509

I voted for the Focals. Just from what limited experience I've had with them, I loved the sound (and am looking forward to your review to see if I should try a set for my HT). That, and I have little to absolutely no experience with some of those others. I don't think I could vote on name alone. So, I had a few choices (by listening to other models within the brand) to choose from.  Went with the Focal. 

Have fun in your testing!


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## ericzim

I voted for the Martin Logan Motion 12 set by spec. I feel that they will represent the better sonic capabilities where they will be placed in your environment. However you choose just have fun with your testing and let your own ears decide.


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## Infrasonic

While I haven't heard any of the speakers in this evaluation my vote is for the Tekton Lore's which are probably the underdogs in this test since most people probably haven't heard of them. From the reviews that I've read they should put up quite a fight against the other big boys.

Whatever happens I'm really looking forward to hearing your impressions on all of these speakers.


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## phillihp23

Voted Vandersteen 2Ce . Why...they seem to have a long term reputation, they are less likely to be lister subjective (love/hate), a balanced speaker.

Have never listened to a pair, just from what I have heard or read about them.


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## keithsplace

These are all way kewl posts, listening to who likes what. Guess that's why there are apples and oranges.


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## mlundy57

keithsplace said:


> These are all way kewl posts, listening to who likes what. Guess that's why there are apples and oranges.


It gets even more complicated when you remember these are people's selections based on the group of speakers selected and for the specified use, e.g. 2-channel listening, not necessarily what folks would choose for their their own use. For example I chose the Vandersteens for this use in this size room. However, I can't use Vandy's myself. 

The only room I have large enough to get them far enough out from the walls to image properly is our main living room. This system is primarily HT that has to accommodate the whole family when they are over. This means folks who range in height from 4'8" to 6'4" and sitting on furniture of varying seat heights. The narrow, 6", vertical listening window of the Vandersteens would pose a problem for this use. 

Then, while I do have a room set aside just for me for reading, listening to music or watching movies my wife doesn't want to watch, the Vandys won't work here because the room is too small (originally a child's bedroom) to get the speakers far enough away from the walls.

So even though I think he'll like the Vandersteens best, it doesn't mean I can have a pair of them. :sad:


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## Quiltzig

Mr Acoustat - I Love that comment " Think Outside the Box" - must remember that.
One of my current systems uses Magnepan 3.7R with twin REL G1 subs (corner loaded) and it sounds very nice, effortless and transparent with a huge soundstage. The other system used Infinity IRS Betas, which are a combo of box for the woofer towers and dipole for the planar mids & tops. It has certain qualities that make it a joy to listen to. Like most guys I guess my ideal speaker system would be a combination of the sounds & qualities of several brands & types that I have heard over the years.... now if we could have that Infinity IRS V soundstage and bass extension with the size & wife acceptance of a Proac Tablette and do it all for $1k.... dream on methinks...


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## Sonnie

admranger said:


> Any chance you can see which of the 8 speakers are less effected by side walls? :bigsmile:


It may be possible with REW... Wayne would probably know more about that than I would though. I will find out.




keithsplace said:


> These are all way kewl posts, listening to who likes what.


Yep... I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them all. This has turned out to be a whole lot more fun that I anticipated. I think we'll definitely have to do more of these. :T


----------



## MrAcoustat

Quiltzig said:


> Mr Acoustat - I Love that comment " Think Outside the Box" - must remember that.
> One of my current systems uses Magnepan 3.7R with twin REL G1 subs (corner loaded) and it sounds very nice, effortless and transparent with a huge soundstage. The other system used Infinity IRS Betas, which are a combo of box for the woofer towers and dipole for the planar mids & tops. It has certain qualities that make it a joy to listen to. Like most guys I guess my ideal speaker system would be a combination of the sounds & qualities of several brands & types that I have heard over the years.... now if we could have that Infinity IRS V soundstage and bass extension with the size & wife acceptance of a Proac Tablette and do it all for $1k.... dream on methinks...


How about this.?????


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## Quiltzig

Planar speakers are generally less affected by side wall reflections as they have a null at the sides, and as they produce sound from both the front and rear they tend to energise the room more evenly which also reduces "hot spots" off side walls.


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## Quiltzig

Yeah, those are what I am searching for. In the meantime, in the meantime the smaller IRS Betas are doing me just fine..


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## MrAcoustat

Quiltzig said:


> Yeah, those are what I am searching for. In the meantime, in the meantime the smaller IRS Betas are doing me just fine..


I'm sure Gary would be happy to build you a pair.:rofl:


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## Quiltzig

Here's the current rig


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## Quiltzig

Yeah I'm sure I could get a new pair of Genesis ones, but then I'd have no house as the divorce would be imminent ! Will keep on the lookout for a used pair of IRS and see what pops up.


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## MrAcoustat

Quiltzig said:


> Here's the current rig


Where are the photos ?????


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## Quiltzig

Dunno where the photos went, thought I should be able to post them after having 5 posts, but maybe I am linking things wrongly, will read up on it & sort it out


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## chaluga

Sonnie said:


> Yep... I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them all. This has turned out to be a whole lot more fun that I anticipated. I think we'll definitely have to do more of these. :T


I think everyone is always interested in how there speakers compare. For those about to buy it gives you one more piece of info. Would be cool to do one for subs , and maybe one for a 1500 dollar receiver and 1500 dollar seperates.


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## Quiltzig




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## Quiltzig

Let's try this link;
http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/Quiltzig/media/IRSBeta002_zps7ecb6d5b.jpg.html


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## MrAcoustat

Quiltzig said:


> Let's try this link;
> http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/Quiltzig/media/IRSBeta002_zps7ecb6d5b.jpg.html


Nice system Quiltzig !!!!!


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## Quiltzig

Here is the signal end of things;

That did not work, so as you can see - I am not that good at this sort of thing.. should stick to my music !
http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y448/Quiltzig/GearRack001_zps32655a1c.jpg


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## skyronne

Great contest. I've read a decent bit concerning these speaker sets. I've got to admit that I am biased. I have a set of RF-62s at home and couldn't be any more pleased. Granted this means I'm one of those "happy with the horn" fans of the Klipsch technology. Haven't heard the other but then again I feel no reason to either.


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## colleyj

I notice the vandersteen's are not on stands, they need to be on sound anchor stands ideally. 
I don't know if you have heard of the book "get better sound" by Jim Smith but I have put into practice the recommendations from that book and have improved my system by easily 50%. I think that your test will not reveal any significant results without spending a good deal of time setting each set of speakers as per this book. It has taken me approx. 20 hours over a couple of weeks to get the room to work with the speakers and now I can truly appreciate what my vandersteens can do, without this work your test IMHO will not have an accurate result.


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## MrAcoustat

colleyj said:


> I notice the vandersteen's are not on stands, they need to be on sound anchor stands ideally.
> I don't know if you have heard of the book "get better sound" by Jim Smith but I have put into practice the recommendations from that book and have improved my system by easily 50%. I think that your test will not reveal any significant results without spending a good deal of time setting each set of speakers as per this book. It has taken me approx. 20 hours over a couple of weeks to get the room to work with the speakers and now I can truly appreciate what my vandersteens can do, without this work your test IMHO will not have an accurate result.


You are absolutely right BUT with the Sound Anchor stands they are no longer in the $1,000.00 bracket.


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## colleyj

MrAcoustat said:


> You are absolutely right BUT with the Sound Anchor stands they are no longer in the $1,000.00 bracket.


In that case I would take them out of the test. The stands are an essential part of the speakers, without them you will not hear 10% of what they are capable of. It would be like testing a set of bookshelf speakers and putting them on the floor. I have had Vandersteens for many years and think they are by far the best value in their price range but they require time and patience to get them set up correctly, this is impossible without the stands.

Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ion-home-audition-event-17.html#ixzz2cc3OnHok


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## MrAcoustat

colleyj said:


> In that case I would take them out of the test. The stands are an essential part of the speakers, without them you will not hear 10% of what they are capable of. It would be like testing a set of bookshelf speakers and putting them on the floor. I have had Vandersteens for many years and think they are by far the best value in their price range but they require time and patience to get them set up correctly, this is impossible without the stands.


There is no SPECIAL stands for any of the other speakers either i think that's pretty fair for ALL.


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## aackthpt

I'm going to say you'll pick the Vandersteen 2Ce.

I just wish you were listening blind, with near-instant switching, to one speaker only (mono).

If you were going to run sub(s) with them, and didn't have sidewall absorbers, I might predict differently.

Sonny, does the room have an absorptive ceiling cloud, or acoustic panel suspended ceiling or anything, or just bare drywall/paint ceiling?


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## JBrax

MrAcoustat said:


> There is no SPECIAL stands for any of the other speakers either i think that's pretty fair for ALL.


That was pretty much my thoughts after reading the post. I think people sometimes take it personal when their brand of speakers are being evaluated and just want them to show well. It's been said many times but the sound signature of every speaker is different and we all like something different. I've learned that with music some types are just a bit to forward with my Klipsch rf-82 ii's. If this evaluation were strictly home theater I would without hesitation vote that Sonnie would choose the Klipsch.


----------



## MrAcoustat

JBrax said:


> That was pretty much my thoughts after reading the post. I think people sometimes take it personal when their brand of speakers are being evaluated and just want them to show well. It's been said many times but the sound signature of every speaker is different and we all like something different. I've learned that with music some types are just a bit to forward with my Klipsch rf-82 ii's. If this evaluation were strictly home theater I would without hesitation vote that Sonnie would choose the Klipsch.


I for one being a LONG TIME ( 30 years ) panel fan know that the flimsy feet on the Magnepan are junk BUT again if you put something better it become's ANOTHER speaker BUT again the price changes MY original Acoustat 1+1s cost me $600.00 before MODS & STEEL FRAME i'm up to 3k BUT it is no longer the same speaker you know the old saying you get what you pay for well it's 95% of the time true.


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## needspeed52

I truly believe the ARX A5 is the speaker to beat @$750 the pair. All around excellent performer for both 2 channel and HT. I thought all good speakers were were supposed to be good for both 2 channel and HT, if they sound good in any one of the applications, I assumed they would be good for anything. :T


----------



## JBrax

needspeed52 said:


> I truly believe the ARX A5 is the speaker to beat @$750 the pair. All around excellent performer for both 2 channel and HT. I thought all good speakers were were supposed to be good for both 2 channel and HT, if they sound good in any one of the applications, I assumed they would be good for anything. :T


I've heard that before and years ago would have agreed with you. We all have different tastes but I can tell you that I personally love the forward, dynamic, and in your face sound of the Klipsch speakers in a home theater environment. Now with some of my music that sound still works for me but with other types it doesn't. With certain types of music I prefer a softer and more laid back neutral sound. I suppose that's why so many people have separate 2 channel setups.


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## needspeed52

JBrax said:


> I've heard that before and years ago would have agreed with you. We all have different tastes but I can tell you that I personally love the forward, dynamic, and in your face sound of the Klipsch speakers in a home theater environment. Now with some of my music that sound still works for me but with other types it doesn't. With certain types of music I prefer a softer and more laid back neutral sound. I suppose that's why so many people have separate 2 channel setups.


You're right my friend, we do have different tastes, I don't prefer anything (sound wise) in my face, I like to feel the force of HT rather than having it shot in my face, that's why I have subs, music from the A5s is everything but in your face, it seems to envelope the listener in a 3D setting, just my opinion of course and no malice intended with the in your face statement. Cheers :sn:


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## JBrax

needspeed52 said:


> You're right my friend, we do have different tastes, I don't prefer anything (sound wise) in my face, I like to feel the force of HT rather than having it shot in my face, that's why I have subs, music from the A5s is everything but in your face, it seems to envelope the listener in a 3D setting, just my opinion of course and no malice intended with the in your face statement. Cheers :sn:


No offense taken. Remember the Maxell commercials back in the day with the guy sitting in the chair and his hair is being blown back? Well that's the effect I like with my action movies. That's my home theater bliss and my setup works very well for that. To each his own…


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## chashint

The shootout will be a significant effort.
I hope everyone keeps this in mind leading up to the event and especially when the results are posted.

If anyone is of the opinion that any speaker is tested with an advantage or disadvantage then that person certainly can take it upon themselves do their own shootout and share those results. 

Even with purpose built rooms it can be a real challenge to get everything optimized.
IMHO no great lengths should be undertaken to get placement perfect. Identify how the room needs to be arranged for ese of use and work within those parameters for all speakers. 
In a real application very few people will have the luxury of being able to keep speakers 2-3 feet or more away from all walls and locate the primary listening position appropriately in the room.

I like the $1000/pr price point for the shootout. 
For some this represents a dream and to others it's below entry level.
At this price point though all of the speakers will sound pretty good and for most people should be something that is very enjoyable to listen to.
When compared to one another though each will reveal its flaws, and none will be the best at everything. 

When picking speakers you only have to please yourself and maybe your spouse and it does not matter what anyone else thinks.


----------



## JBrax

chashint said:


> The shootout will be a significant effort.
> I hope everyone keeps this in mind leading up to the event and especially when the results are posted.
> 
> If anyone is of the opinion that any speaker is tested with an advantage or disadvantage then that person certainly can take it upon themselves do their own shootout and share those results.
> 
> Even with purpose built rooms it can be a real challenge to get everything optimized.
> IMHO no great lengths should be undertaken to get placement perfect. Identify how the room needs to be arranged for ese of use and work within those parameters for all speakers.
> In a real application very few people will have the luxury of being able to keep speakers 2-3 feet or more away from all walls and locate the primary listening position appropriately in the room.
> 
> I like the $1000/pr price point for the shootout.
> For some this represents a dream and to others it's below entry level.
> At this price point though all of the speakers will sound pretty good and for most people should be something that is very enjoyable to listen to.
> When compared to one another though each will reveal its flaws, and none will be the best at everything.
> 
> When picking speakers you only have to please yourself and maybe your spouse and it does not matter what anyone else thinks.


Very well said.


----------



## mlundy57

MrAcoustat said:


> There is no SPECIAL stands for any of the other speakers either i think that's pretty fair for ALL.


Not in this case. Remember Vandersteens are designed to have a wide horizontal listening window but a narrow (6") vertical window. The center of this window is designed for an ear height of 33 inches. Therefore, if the ear height at the listening position is more than 33 inches the speakers have to be tilted backwards to align the center of the listening window with the actual ear height. The stands are designed to accomplish this positioning by adjusting the length of the front and rear spikes. 

Since all speakers are not designed the same, they cannot all be setup the same. An old saying comes to mind:

"There is nothing so unequal as the equal treatment of unequals"

If you really want an equal comparison, each speaker needs to be setup to preform at it's best.


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## needspeed52

JBrax said:


> No offense taken. Remember the Maxell commercials back in the day with the guy sitting in the chair and his hair is being blown back? Well that's the effect I like with my action movies. That's my home theater bliss and my setup works very well for that. To each his own…


Showing your age with the Maxell's, I remember them well as I watched that commercial a lot, I got what you mean now, all is good my man. :T


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## MrAcoustat

mlundy57 said:


> Not in this case. Remember Vandersteens are designed to have a wide horizontal listening window but a narrow (6") vertical window. The center of this window is designed for an ear height of 33 inches. Therefore, if the ear height at the listening position is more than 33 inches the speakers have to be tilted backwards to align the center of the listening window with the actual ear height. The stands are designed to accomplish this positioning by adjusting the length of the front and rear spikes.
> 
> Since all speakers are not designed the same, they cannot all be setup the same. An old saying comes to mind:
> 
> "There is nothing so unequal as the equal treatment of unequals"
> 
> If you really want an equal comparison, each speaker needs to be setup to preform at it's best.


If that is the case sir ALL speakers deserve to get the same treatment for MAXIMUM performance.


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## rha1211

I voted for the Vandersteen......Richard likes to put his money into the drivers.....Because there is no cabinet more money for the drivers.....


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## mlundy57

MrAcoustat said:


> If that is the case sir ALL speakers deserve to get the same treatment for MAXIMUM performance.


Maybe I'm not explaining myself well enough. Here's another example. If you wanted to evaluate two different pairs if bookshelf speakers, one 8" tall and the other 20" tall you would not want to put them on the same stand. This would put the tweeter of one of the pairs at ear height but the other pair's tweeter would be either too high or too low. The result would be that you would be listening in the sweet spot for one of the speakers but outside of it for the other. 

In this situation either the experience of listening to each speaker in it's sweet spot can be the same or the height of the stand can be the same, but not both. If I'm evaluating different speakers to decide which one to spend my money on, I want to hear each speaker from it's sweet spot. That's the only way I know I am hearing the best each speaker has to offer.


----------



## MrAcoustat

mlundy57 said:


> Maybe I'm not explaining myself well enough. Here's another example. If you wanted to evaluate two different pairs if bookshelf speakers, one 8" tall and the other 20" tall you would not want to put them on the same stand. This would put the tweeter of one of the pairs at ear height but the other pair's tweeter would be either too high or too low. The result would be that you would be listening in the sweet spot for one of the speakers but outside of it for the other.
> 
> In this situation either the experience of listening to each speaker in it's sweet spot can be the same or the height of the stand can be the same, but not both. If I'm evaluating different speakers to decide which one to spend my money on, I want to hear each speaker from it's sweet spot. That's the only way I know I am hearing the best each speaker has to offer.


I agree, but what's good for one is also good for the other, the best possible condition for ALL plain and simple.


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## chashint

If moving my head 3 1/2" up or down makes the speaker sound different then it is simply not something I would be willing to tolerate. 

It will be interesting to read the comments in regards to the vertical dispersion (or lack of) in regards to these speakers.


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## Sonnie

Keep in mind that I am looking for speakers that will accommodate my room, not speakers that I am going to have to accommodate the room for. I have a dedicated home theater room... I need a pair of two-channel speakers that will work in my current setup. I do not plan to have to move around my current acoustic panels or other speakers in the room just to get better sound. I need the speakers to work with what I have now. If I use spikes, I need the speakers to be easy to grab a hold of and move... otherwise they are going to be aggravating to walk over to the side of the room when I am not using them. However, if I can find a position for them that does not disturb my movie watching experience, I may very well leave them there. That would likely be the 3/4 positioning, where the speakers are about 5' from the front wall, 6.5' from the side walls, and 6' apart, then about 8' from the listening position. This would place the speakers just in front of the edges of the equipment cabinet, basically between the side of the cabinet and the main MartinLogan panels, but would not disturb the screen and I don't think would interfere with the performance of the ML's, at least not for movies. However, the Maggies would not work if left there, as they are too tall, yet they don't have spikes and are easiest to move, so it would not matter if they were not able to be left permanent. I think any of the others would be fine in that position, but again not a necessity if easy enough to move.




colleyj said:


> I notice the vandersteen's are not on stands, they need to be on sound anchor stands ideally


The "Vandersteen stands" came with the speakers, not Sound Anchor stands. We plan to listen with and without the stands. I noticed they have rollers, but I have not looked into what the purpose of the rollers are if they also have adjustable spikes. I suppose if you don't need the spikes, then you can use the rollers to roll them out of the way when not needed, which would be ideal for me.

My ear height is about 36-37" when seated, so the stands alone should get them up enough without any tilting.




aackthpt said:


> Sonny, does the room have an absorptive ceiling cloud, or acoustic panel suspended ceiling or anything, or just bare drywall/paint ceiling?


I have two panels from GIK that will be here tomorrow, which I plan to place on the ceiling. I do have some thick velvet covered panels up there for light reflection, not that they have a lot of absorption abilities, but it isn't just bare sheetrock.




chashint said:


> The shootout will be a significant effort.
> I hope everyone keeps this in mind leading up to the event and especially when the results are posted.
> 
> If anyone is of the opinion that any speaker is tested with an advantage or disadvantage then that person certainly can take it upon themselves do their own shootout and share those results.
> 
> Even with purpose built rooms it can be a real challenge to get everything optimized.
> IMHO no great lengths should be undertaken to get placement perfect. Identify how the room needs to be arranged for ease of use and work within those parameters for all speakers.
> In a real application very few people will have the luxury of being able to keep speakers 2-3 feet or more away from all walls and locate the primary listening position appropriately in the room.
> 
> I like the $1000/pr price point for the shootout.
> For some this represents a dream and to others it's below entry level.
> At this price point though all of the speakers will sound pretty good and for most people should be something that is very enjoyable to listen to.
> When compared to one another though each will reveal its flaws, and none will be the best at everything.
> 
> When picking speakers you only have to please yourself and maybe your spouse and it does not matter what anyone else thinks.


I don't think I could have said that any better if I'd thought long and hard about it for a month of Sundays. Very well said indeed. 

The good thing is we do have some placement flexibility. These speakers are going to able to be placed well out into the room in several locations, so we should be able to get good placement. Once I find the speakers I like... I may do more experimentation to improve the sound with those particular speakers, but it is unlikely that it would be drastic. I may buy free standing acoustic panels and experiment with the placement of those, as they can be moved out of the way during movies as well. But it sure won't be that I am going to fit the room to the speakers for the evaluation. We simply do not have the time for that much experimentation... and that is not what this is meant for. If we narrow it down to two pairs, then I may put more effort into optimizing things for each of those, but that will likely be done after the evaluation when I have more time. In that case, I will probably keep both pairs for a while. 

BTW... in case anyone is curious... if it comes down to two pairs and I can't make up my mind within a few weeks, then I'll just pick both pair and those voting on those two pair will be entered into the drawing. :bigsmile:


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## Sonnie

chaluga said:


> I think everyone is always interested in how their speakers compare. For those about to buy it gives you one more piece of info. Would be cool to do one for subs , and maybe one for a 1500 dollar receiver and 1500 dollar seperates.


Actually... the Denon 4520 Receiver, the Rogue Cronus Magnum Integrated Amp, the Jolida 3502 Integrated Amp and the Jolida Preamp/Emerald Physics Amp combo, will all have pretty close to the same street price. Not quite at the $1,500 mark, but all somewhere between $1,800 - $2,000.


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## Dino

To many variables to truly decide which you will choose but my decision is based on my preference for your environment. It always comes down to personal preference only you can decide which one you like, there is only the best speaker for your listening preference!

Happy Testing!


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## mtbdudex

colleyj said:


> I notice the vandersteen's are not on stands, they need to be on sound anchor stands ideally.
> I don't know if you have heard of the book "get better sound" by Jim Smith but I have put into practice the recommendations from that book and have improved my system by easily 50%. I think that your test will not reveal any significant results without spending a good deal of time setting each set of speakers as per this book. It has taken me approx. 20 hours over a couple of weeks to get the room to work with the speakers and now I can truly appreciate what my vandersteens can do, without this work your test IMHO will not have an accurate result.


How do you quantify your statement "improved my system by easily 50%"?

"room to work with the speakers" ; I 100% agree here, it's the room<>speaker interaction, and for each speaker it may be "best" in a different location/toe in that another.
So you took objective measurements, ETC charts, and used that to dial your placement of the speakers (location and toe in), along with appropriate placement of acoustic treatments?

Seriously, is this objective or subjective statement?

50% is a HUGE improvement........


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## admranger

Sonnie said:


> It may be possible with REW... Wayne would probably know more about that than I would though. I will find out.



Thanks for considering my request! I really appreciate it! :T


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## admranger

chaluga said:


> I went from b&w lcr6 to tekton Oriel 10 which are very close to lores. It was a huge upgrade for me. Much more dynamic , and way for engrossing for movies.


Thanks for the input. Time for Mr. Google to work his magic so I can do some reading on the Oriel 10's! Thanks!:T


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## keithsplace

Well now there's the rub.... which set ya gonna give away when it's over?:TT


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## chaluga

admranger said:


> Thanks for the input. Time for Mr. Google to work his magic so I can do some reading on the Oriel 10's! Thanks!:T


There isn't much to google . Its the same.as.the lore with a slightly different tweeter . Costs 150 less. I don't think there is any reviews. When I ordered in January there wasn't all the problems with production that there was the last four months . He seems to be getting better but don't expect grills. They may not be 98 db sensativity but they play very loud and clean
I watched iron man 3 tonight (bad movie) but it sounded awesome . Played at thx reference level and no sweat.


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## ALMFamily

I know I cannot win them, but I voted for the Tektons anyway. It was close with the Focals though...


----------



## sub_junkie

I'm going to have to give my vote to the Focal's. I personally haven't heard those ones exactly, but I have heard almost all of their speaker line up and have always been impressed. The imaging, clarity, and detailing of everything was a huge attraction to that brand for me. I have just a cheaper set of their speakers in my car and they sound pretty amazing; especially for the price.


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## cellarnoise

A friend and I conducted my own mini test a year and a half ago on speakers generally lower than this range. I had a pair of RF-62 II that I did not like before audyssey xt toned the horn down. If you use e.q. they may come out on top though, even though they still lack in bass imo, but the horns cover the highs great.

The speakers were compromised by having to fit in a limited location in my HT. One day of testing only 5 sets was exhausting. We had no equipment besides ears. Switching the sets and setting up.

Volume matching will be very important. Keeping speakers at the same ear level also, but not if that is how the will be used.

We found that after e.q. the sets that were best at the full range came out on top. Even Audessey XT evened up the field greatly.

We played classical symphonies, acoustic blues and guitar and various rock that we were very familiar with.

All sets were helped when we added a small sub in my poor room. I think I need to play with side wall treatments.

I bet you will be exhausted as two days of this is fatiguing on the critical listening ear....
Have fun.


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## Sonnie

I am exhausted just getting ready for it all. There has been a LOT to do.


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## mlundy57

Ahhh but the fun part is almost here


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## MrAcoustat

Sonnie said:


> I am exhausted just getting ready for it all. There has been a LOT to do.


Poor Sonnie what ever you choose, some will agree and some wont, but it's all in fun. ( but you better choose Magnepan )


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## Picture_Shooter

I never auditioned any of these speakers except for the RF-62 IIs and thats not saying much since I am not a fan of their tweeters as they seem to fatigue my ears for music. 

However since I am a huge fan of maggies (never heard the MG12 / qr's) but I think they will fill the room with sound as they don't seem to need a sweet spot to make them shine. 

Overall I think you have a nice selective choice of full-rangers, but my nod will go towards them maggies, but I am wondering if its straight 2-channel w/o a sub they may suffer some  .

Good luck Sonnie and I cannot wait to hear your selected choice.

-Mike


----------



## MrAcoustat

Picture_Shooter said:


> I never auditioned any of these speakers except for the RF-62 IIs and thats not saying much since I am not a fan of their tweeters as they seem to fatigue my ears for music.
> 
> However since I am a huge fan of maggies (never heard the MG12 / qr's) but I think they will fill the room with sound as they don't seem to need a sweet spot to make them shine.
> 
> Overall I think you have a nice selective choice of full-rangers, but my nod will go towards them maggies, but I am wondering if its straight 2-channel w/o a sub they may suffer some  .
> 
> Good luck Sonnie and I cannot wait to hear your selected choice.
> 
> -Mike


Don't worry Mike what you miss in QUANTITY you gain in QUALITY the bass from a panel is MORE natural but you are correct they are NOT for heavy rock or heavy metal they are simply for music.:heehee:


----------



## MrAcoustat

Picture_Shooter said:


> I never auditioned any of these speakers except for the RF-62 IIs and thats not saying much since I am not a fan of their tweeters as they seem to fatigue my ears for music.
> 
> However since I am a huge fan of maggies (never heard the MG12 / qr's) but I think they will fill the room with sound as they don't seem to need a sweet spot to make them shine.
> 
> Overall I think you have a nice selective choice of full-rangers, but my nod will go towards them maggies, but I am wondering if its straight 2-channel w/o a sub they may suffer some  .
> 
> Good luck Sonnie and I cannot wait to hear your selected choice.
> 
> -Mike


*Hey Mike the Klipsch are not the only ones in this group that have tweeters that are hard on the ears FOCAL is a french speaker and most french speakers are very detailed i guess many audiophiles love that because they are #1 and #2 up to now in the people's choice. :unbelievable: *


----------



## lcaillo

Picture_Shooter said:


> However since I am a huge fan of maggies (never heard the MG12 / qr's) but I think they will fill the room with sound as they don't seem to need a sweet spot to make them shine.
> 
> -Mike


I am curious about the comment that they don't need a sweet spot. I have lots of experience with planar speakers, including earlier Magnepans, and I have always found them to be quite critical about placement, and in some rooms the sweet spot is quite limited. In a large enough room you can get a good soundstage that does not completely collapse when moving out of the sweet spot, but the character changes significantly and differently with lateral vs depth seating position changes. Unipolar speakers that are more nearly point source can produce a much more robust soundstage with changing listening positions and less tweaking to the speaker location, IME.

That said, Sonnie will be the only one listening and will always be in the same sweet spot, and the magnepans may be a very good choice for him. I can't wait to see how the other speakers that I am less familiar with compare.


----------



## admranger

sub_junkie said:


> I'm going to have to give my vote to the Focal's. I personally haven't heard those ones exactly, but I have heard almost all of their speaker line up and have always been impressed. The imaging, clarity, and detailing of everything was a huge attraction to that brand for me. I have just a cheaper set of their speakers in my car and they sound pretty amazing; especially for the price.


I'm only familiar with Focal's products in the car audio line. Their tweeters are too, shall we say, energetic for my taste. Morels or Hybrid Audio Technologies have a tweeter that doesn't grab you by the throat like the Focal's do. Hopefully, Focal's home speakers have a gentler touch.


----------



## Sonnie

We played around with the Maggies quite a bit tonight and it took a while to find their sweet spot. I bet we moved them over a couple of dozen times. We also place acoustic panels behind them and then moved them out of the way... definitely better without the panels anywhere behind them. I would say where they are now is most likely the ONLY place they could be and be their best. This would suggest they are very peculiar about placement. Perhaps the MG12's are that much different and more finicky than the other Maggies. At least we finally found a respectable spot for their testing.


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## fschris

this may be a mute point... but I would like to know about what each speaker weights....


----------



## Sonnie

We will publish the specification of each speaker in the results thread.


----------



## fokakis1

Sonnie said:


> We played around with the Maggies quite a bit tonight and it took a while to find their sweet spot. I bet we moved them over a couple of dozen times. We also place acoustic panels behind them and then moved them out of the way... definitely better without the panels anywhere behind them. I would say where they are now is most likely the ONLY place they could be and be their best. This would suggest they are very peculiar about placement. Perhaps the MG12's are that much different and more finicky than the other Maggies. At least we finally found a respectable spot for their testing.


I am curious as to the optimal location you found for these as my room layout is almost identical to yours. I'll be staying tuned.


----------



## bkeeler10

My vote went to the Maggies. I have never heard them, but I haven't heard anything on the list either. However, I've read enough press to know that they are considered by many to be about the best value in this price range. Since you're using them for two-channel only (no home theater) and not terribly loud, my best bet is that you'll like them a lot.

Looking forward very much to the results, and hopefully a write-up of detailed listening impressions on each. And of course the giveaway! Thanks.


----------



## lcaillo

fokakis1 said:


> I am curious as to the optimal location you found for these as my room layout is almost identical to yours. I'll be staying tuned.


Sonnie is making measurements, speaker to walls, speaker to speaker, speaker to listener. He will be reporting on this as well as our impressions on all of the speakers.


----------



## fschris

lcaillo said:


> Sonnie is making measurements, speaker to walls, speaker to speaker, speaker to listener. He will be reporting on this as well as our impressions on all of the speakers.


how many beers are we into this when measurements are being taken ??  should we add a standard deviation of 4 beers ?


----------



## lcaillo

Nope. Bathroom runs are purely due to sweet tea.


----------



## Sonnie

If I were drinking beer, the speakers I listened to last would probably sound the best. :sarcastic:


----------



## Mike0206

Sonnie said:


> If I were drinking beer, the speakers I listened to last would probably sound the best. :sarcastic:


So long as the vandersteens are last then we're good! Lol


----------



## lcaillo

I feel somewhat comfortable with the Magnepans and Vandersteens as reference points. I have not heard the newest versions until this week, but have extensive experience with both in the past. The rest are completely new to me. This is turning into a really interesting challenge. Nice mix of technologies and capability in this bunch.

Keep in mind that this is first and foremost about Sonnie finding the best fit for himself, but Wayne and I are keeping notes and trying to keep open minds and Sonnie is challenging his own assumptions about what he likes. We will report both impressions and observations from listening and measurements (actual room responses, using the locations we find best for each product).


----------



## B- one

lcaillo said:


> Nope. Bathroom runs are purely due to sweet tea.


You guys should try Arizona lemonade with honey I think it's called golden bear. Good luck with all the speakers sounds like its a good time.


----------



## needspeed52

lcaillo said:


> I feel somewhat comfortable with the Magnepans and Vandersteens as reference points. I have not heard the newest versions until this week, but have extensive experience with both in the past. The rest are completely new to me. This is turning into a really interesting challenge. Nice mix of technologies and capability in this bunch.
> 
> Keep in mind that this is first and foremost about Sonnie finding the best fit for himself, but Wayne and I are keeping notes and trying to keep open minds and Sonnie is challenging his own assumptions about what he likes. We will report both impressions and observations from listening and measurements (actual room responses, using the locations we find best for each product).


Thank you Leonard for your contributions, I believe room placement will be critical in obtaining the best response from a couple of the pairs listed and equally important to the others as well. I never realized how important the room and placement is when auditioning any loudspeakers. I really like the fact that the speakers involved will all be well away from room boundaries (walls), enabling the speakers to play the room and not the opposite. I'm not familiar with all the speakers but do you think that some of them need the boundaries to get the most out of them, or will the speakers be placed according to manufactures recommendation, this question has probably been asked already, if so I apologize. Thanks again for all that you will be doing, as I believe this price range is a very popular and affordable point. 
Cheers Jeff :T


----------



## chaluga

lcaillo said:


> I feel somewhat comfortable with the Magnepans and Vandersteens as reference points. I have not heard the newest versions until this week, but have extensive experience with both in the past. The rest are completely new to me. This is turning into a really interesting challenge. Nice mix of technologies and capability in this bunch.
> 
> Keep in mind that this is first and foremost about Sonnie finding the best fit for himself, but Wayne and I are keeping notes and trying to keep open minds and Sonnie is challenging his own assumptions about what he likes. We will report both impressions and observations from listening and measurements (actual room responses, using the locations we find best for each product).


Will the results be in this thread or a new one ?


----------



## lcaillo

There will be a new thread for each speaker.


----------



## Sonnie

Actually it will be a new "Results" thread, with each speaker having its own post... beginning with an introduction to the process.

We are trying manufacturers placement (or vendor recommendations)... but in several cases we have found our own spot choices are better... and some drastically different.


----------



## lcaillo

What he said.

It must be the tea.


----------



## Sonnie

What's that you been mixing with the tea? I think Tonto musta snuck something in on his horse... mojo stuff.


----------



## Picture_Shooter

If it's not the tea you always can blame the water!


----------



## jmschnur

Real rooms have walls. Speakers are listened to in real rooms. So taking the walls out of the test seems to be not a good choice. Ease of optimization of a speaker in a real room could be a useful criteria .


----------



## chaluga

Sonnie said:


> Actually it will be a new "Results" thread, with each speaker having its own post... beginning with an introduction to the process.
> 
> We are trying manufacturers placement (or vendor recommendations)... but in several cases we have found our own spot choices are better... and some drastically different.


As soon as the results thread starts please put a link to it from here. I am lazy and want to see the results as soon as there up.


----------



## Sonnie

jmschnur said:


> Real rooms have walls. Speakers are listened to in real rooms. So taking the walls out of the test seems to be not a good choice. Ease of optimization of a speaker in a real room could be a useful criteria .


This is my "real" room and it is the only one I am concerned with. I would encourage anyone looking for speakers to get them in their own home in their own "real" room and have a listen. In this "real" room, everyone of these speakers sound their best out from the walls, yet we have not removed the walls, they are still here.




chaluga said:


> As soon as the results thread starts please put a link to it from here. I am lazy and want to see the results as soon as there up.


I will definitely do this. It may take us a few days to get it all written up because there is a LOT to write and a LOT to put together. This is soooo much fun.


----------



## jmschnur

What I meant was that if the best sound was 5' from the side walls , a number of room could not accommodate this. Thus my suggestion about using ease of optimization as a criteria.


----------



## Sonnie

Keep in mind this is not what works best for everyone and anyone, it's what works best for my room. When I am evaluating speakers for myself, I cannot be concerned with what optimization will work best for everyone else... that would not make any sense at all. I am not trying to find speakers that will work for others in their rooms.


----------



## jmschnur

Ok; understood. Could you give dimensions of your room and its wall coverings so others can make get a reasonable understanding of your results in the context of your room? 



Edit: Sorry I see it is in the first message. Large room. Enjoy your testing . I will be interested in your evaluations.


----------



## lcaillo

jmschnur said:


> Real rooms have walls. Speakers are listened to in real rooms. So taking the walls out of the test seems to be not a good choice. Ease of optimization of a speaker in a real room could be a useful criteria .


As Sonnie said, it is his room that we are working with. Everyone has different settings and different ability to maximize the position in the room. In this case, the room is dedicated and we can optimize each speaker to get the most out of it in this room. It would be unfair to each product and to Sonnie's purpose, and untrue to the passion of extracting as much performance out of a system that most of us share to do anything else.

So let's be clear about our process. There are four of us with very different tastes, systems, rooms, and experience evaluating 8 very good pairs of speakers. We have all done our best to commit to learning as much about each speaker's performance as possible in the short time we have. We selected 12 tracks with a variety of music and instrument and vocal types. We supplement those with other tracks of individual choice when we want to explore a particular aspect of a speaker. We start by finding the location in the room where each speaker produces the largest and most robust soundstage, worrying less about frequency response. Because we can get far from walls and Sonnie has ample room treatment available, the response is less important than the image. This is just the priority that we have chosen, largely because Sonnie is exploring the experience of a two channel soundstage and is intrigued by it.

After we find and agree upon the optimal position (after moving the speakers as many as a couple of dozen times) we mark that position and each listen extensively, typically for 20-30 minutes for each of us.

We are all taking notes on each speaker and will narrow the field to the top two or three candidates, then do more listening and testing. Before we move on to another speaker we are making six response measurements for each pair, left and right speakers from three positions.

Now about rooms. In any room, the optimum image will be produced with most speakers when they are far enough away from the walls to minimize primary reflections to a large degree. Yes, all rooms have walls, but all installations have to deal with their negative effects on imaging and soundstage. We are not trying to pretend that walls don't exist at all. We are fully recognizing that they play a role in the resulting sound and are optimizing the location of the speakers in the room. If that does not work for you, then you are welcome to perform your own listening tests under whatever conditions and with whatever priorities you choose. Many of these speakers are available for home trial, some even with free return shipping.

We will report on the relative ease of optimizing the location in this room. One should consider that in other rooms, the same experience may not hold true, or where speakers have to be closer to walls the speakers may behave differently. As in any discussion, the only correct answer is "it depends" as there are so many variables that no evaluation can suit everyone's needs. Put many experiences together, however, and patterns emerge. To the degree we can we will contribute to the general knowledge about these products and their behavior.


----------



## Sonnie

jmschnur said:


> Ok; understood. Could you give dimensions of your room and its wall coverings so others can make get a reasonable understanding of your results in the context of your room?


Yes... if you look at the first post you will see an image of the room layout and the dimensions. The treatments are marked. We have also experimented with GIK Monster Bass Traps parked in different areas around the speakers at varying distances and angles, but have found the speakers sound better without them. I believe the treatment we currently have is just right.


----------



## admranger

This appears to be a huge amount of work! I thank you for your efforts as clearly a lot of thought went into this.

Very much looking forward to the results. Great work!


----------



## JBrax

This thread is awesome and I can't wait for the write ups. If the voting was for sex appeal I think the Klipsch win hands down!


----------



## wssmith

Great thread! I'm currently looking to buy new speakers for a 5.1 home theater system and some music listening. I'm considering the Tekton Lore, ARX A5, HTD Level 3 and Emp Tek. Looking forward to the final results of the first three and hoping it will help with my purchase decision.


----------



## lcaillo

What are your impressions of these so far? Which have you heard?


----------



## wssmith

On the list, I've only heard the Emp Tek 55Ti, but that was at a housewarming party. The host showed them off and I thought they had a full/ live sound (probably not explaining that properly). I also gave a listen to Ascend Sierras and really enjoyed those, but they are out of my price range.

I was bitten by the "new speaker" bug only a few weeks ago and was visiting brick and mortar stores and only recently began considering ID speakers. I added Arx, HTD and Tektons based on price and user reviews which is why I'm so interested in this thread. I'll eventually order bookshelf speakers from two companies to compare. There are so many options out there that it's difficult to limit my selection to just two.

I should also add that I'm a beginner with all of this. I currently have a Denon AVR-X2000 receiver that I bought a few weeks ago. I also have Athena speakers (FS2's, center and bookshelf) that I bought on a whim about 8 or 9 years ago. The Athenas are not bad, but I definitely have heard better options at reasonable price points. Additionally, I have an old Acoustic Research S112PS sub that I hope to replace (looking at Hsu and Outlaw) without breaking the bank.


----------



## Picture_Shooter

wssmith said:


> On the list, I've only heard the Emp Tek 55Ti, but that was at a housewarming party. The host showed them off and I thought they had a full/ live sound (probably not explaining that properly). I also gave a listen to Ascend Sierras and really enjoyed those, but they are out of my price range.
> 
> I was bitten by the "new speaker" bug only a few weeks ago and was visiting brick and mortar stores and only recently began considering ID speakers. I added Arx, HTD and Tektons based on price and user reviews which is why I'm so interested in this thread. I'll eventually order bookshelf speakers from two companies to compare. There are so many options out there that it's difficult to limit my selection to just two.
> 
> I should also add that I'm a beginner with all of this. I currently have a Denon AVR-X2000 receiver that I bought a few weeks ago. I also have Athena speakers (FS2's, center and bookshelf) that I bought on a whim about 8 or 9 years ago. The Athenas are not bad, but I definitely have heard better options at reasonable price points. Additionally, I have an old Acoustic Research S112PS sub that I hope to replace (looking at Hsu and Outlaw) without breaking the bank.


Sometimes reviews could be very overwhelming and honestly from what I've experienced the best speakers is only to your ears.
So basically I take all reviews as a grain of salt and and once I get to decide which ones I want then I will purchase and demo / test them. 
Most companies has a very good 30 days to 45 day return policy. 

(Sent on Galaxy S4)


----------



## Sonnie

That is so true Mike. I have read several of the reviews on these various speakers before finalizing my choice of them. Now that we all have heard them, we definitely hear it differently than some or all of the reviewers depending on the speaker. All of us have heard things differently as well.


----------



## wssmith

Picture_Shooter said:


> Sometimes reviews could be very overwhelming and honestly from what I've experienced the best speakers is only to your ears.
> So basically I take all reviews as a grain of salt and and once I get to decide which ones I want then I will purchase and demo / test them.
> Most companies has a very good 30 days to 45 day return policy.
> 
> (Sent on Galaxy S4)


Definitely agree with you on that. I want to limit my options because the cost of shipping speakers can add up quickly. I'm certain I want to audition the Arx. My second option is still open, but leaning towards HTD Level 3's but I seem to change my mind by the hour.


----------



## Sonnie

We have kinda changed our minds every couple of hours here.


----------



## lcaillo

This is tough because all of these are speakers that could appeal to certain people and have a lot to like about them. For the selling prices, I think you get a lot compared to the speakers we had available when I was in the business of selling speakers 30 years ago. Once we start posting our impressions, take them in context. When you have to select among many good choices, you have to drill down pretty deep and a lot of it has to do with personal taste. I will try to post both the pros and cons of all of the speakers.


----------



## JQueen

Have any of the speakers been eliminated yet?


----------



## lcaillo

We have auditioned and measured them all. Next phase is to pick the ones that stand out as likely choices and listen again with a wider range of music. We will be closing the poll before we announce any selection or post any reviews.


----------



## fanuminski

This is a great thread and it piqued my interest enough to grab a bowl of popcorn
and start reading from the beginning. Can't wait to read the results. 
by looks alone, I leaned towards the Focal Chorus 716V. I would like
to see you get those tweeters dialed in and see how this relatively inexpensive
line performs.


----------



## Wolfgang

Can I ask what music you're listening to in the evaluations, and what particular aspects you're listening for in a given piece?

My apologies if that's a little tricky to answer - just curious...


----------



## Sonnie

The poll is now officially closed for voting. 

We have indeed eliminated 6 pairs of speakers and 2 pair remain. This is not to say in any way that the 6 pairs eliminated are bad speakers. They are NOT... they have all be enjoyable. Maybe one pair was a bit more disappointing than the rest, but overall, I could probably live with any of these speakers in my two-channel setup. With the freedom of speaker placement I have, we were able to get all of them sounding pretty good, so it came down to simply which ones could do things better than the other, even if there were only slight differences.

No doubt that room setup and acoustics could easily have an effect on which ones others might choose. Either way, if you are in the market, it makes sense to listen to several speakers for yourself with the type of music you like and choose which ones you like best.

I can tell you that it is unanimous on the final 2 pairs, which is somewhat of a relief that we are all hearing close to the same things. We all pretty much have our notes and after listening we compare them and they are eerily similar. I think on some speakers we heard a few things differently, but for the most part we were hearing ear to ear.

It is also very very close. I am not sure it could get much closer... and we all seem to agree it is going to be a difficult decision. We are now playing different music trying to see if we can find something that one does better than the other.


----------



## tonyvdb

Looking forward to the results, this is going to be very interesting


----------



## Sonnie

Wolfgang said:


> Can I ask what music you're listening to in the evaluations, and what particular aspects you're listening for in a given piece?
> 
> My apologies if that's a little tricky to answer - just curious...


It is mostly music I listen to on a regular basis, which is a vast variety of rock, jazz and female vocalist. We will list the particular songs we chose (most of them mine) when we post the results in a few days. During this last session we are all listening to various music, not the same 12 songs we listened to during the first round of the evaluation.

The first goal was to find the best position for imaging and sound stage... the broader and deeper the better. Then it was clarity and smoothness of the speaker with consideration for bass, mid-bass, midrange, highs... vocals... various instruments (guitar I like) ... and just pretty much everything. Which ones do what better. Two of these do all of it very well... they are very balanced speakers, and strangely enough they are the two most forgiving of placement.


----------



## Wolfgang

Thanks Sonnie. I look forward to reading the write-up.

On another note, I believe you just let slip that the two "finalists" are very forgiving of placement, while you've previously named one pair that are very tricky to place. We're down to seven...


----------



## Sonnie

heehee... oops!

I can't make up my mind. They both sound so good and so similar. I guess I will just keep both. :huh:


----------



## lcaillo

And I am the one everyone accuses of being a fence sitter. Not this time. It was hard but I did make up my mind.:hail:


----------



## Sonnie

Is that why you keep swapping speakers and listening to more music? :whistling:


----------



## lcaillo

Hey, they are both really impressive. Still, my mind is made up. My final test, Bad Sneakers by Steely Dan...I can hear the background vocal by Michael McDonald and the piano when Fagan harmonizes with it, both more clearly on my final choice.


----------



## Picture_Shooter

Awesome!! Please share which one the winner is? 




Sonnie said:


> The poll is now officially closed for voting.
> 
> We have indeed eliminated 6 pairs of speakers and 2 pair remain. This is not to say in any way that the 6 pairs eliminated are bad speakers. They are NOT... they have all be enjoyable. Maybe one pair was a bit more disappointing than the rest, but overall, I could probably live with any of these speakers in my two-channel setup. With the freedom of speaker placement I have, we were able to get all of them sounding pretty good, so it came down to simply which ones could do things better than the other, even if there were only slight differences.
> 
> No doubt that room setup and acoustics could easily have an effect on which ones others might choose. Either way, if you are in the market, it makes sense to listen to several speakers for yourself with the type of music you like and choose which ones you like best.
> 
> I can tell you that it is unanimous on the final 2 pairs, which is somewhat of a relief that we are all hearing close to the same things. We all pretty much have our notes and after listening we compare them and they are eerily similar. I think on some speakers we heard a few things differently, but for the most part we were hearing ear to ear.
> 
> It is also very very close. I am not sure it could get much closer... and we all seem to agree it is going to be a difficult decision. We are now playing different music trying to see if we can find something that one does better than the other.


----------



## bkeeler10

See now you're just messing with us. Consider me sufficiently teased. I can't wait to hear the final results. You had better pick my speaker, or else ...


----------



## lcaillo

Honestly, we are not teasing. Remember this is in real time. Sonnie is still listening and doing testing. None of us have completed our write-ups yet. I am working on that now. I don't want to reveal my selection until Sonnie has made his decision. At this point he is tossed up between two of the speakers which are surprisingly similar in sound and optimum location.

When we reveal our findings we want them to be in context, not just news in a vacuum. 

I have completed my testing and am typing up my notes on the speakers. I am trying to get it done so that Sonnie can publish it when he announces his decision. It will be rather brief and preliminary and may get some editing, but I want to get something out as soon as I can. And I am driving back to Gainesville and back to real life tomorrow.:rolleyesno:


----------



## bkeeler10

Naturally. Forgot to insert smileys on that last post (actually I'm on the app which doesn't do smileys sadly). I will patiently await the results ;-)


----------



## chaluga

My guess for the final two are the tektons and the focals


----------



## paulster

Tetons and ARX I would imagine!


----------



## gtpsuper24

I'm going to say Arx A5 is one of the final two left. From my experience they are very easy to place, great deep soundstage and really are a neutral speaker. The Focal might be the other.


----------



## JQueen

The Arx are fantastic speakers!!!!


----------



## chashint

Do you have a time estimate for the summary / review posts ?
Will each speaker get a write up on strengths / weakness ?

There is a big difference between listening to music and listening to speakers, have y'all had a chance to relax and do some listening for pleasure yet ?


----------



## Mike0206

chashint said:


> have y'all had a chance to relax and do some listening for pleasure yet ?


I would venture to guess that the whole weekend for them was for pleasure, albeit a lot of work but nonetheless pleasurable. I see what you mean though. Relax is the key word there.


----------



## Tonto

Well, this is my first post since the event. I can tell you that listening to these group of speakers was truely a special thing. I thought $1000 was on the low side for serious 2 channel speakers. I can tell you that at one point I actually leaned over & commented to Sonnie that this was making me look forward to the next shootout ($2000-$2500). Sonnne comented back "they're really gonna have to bring it to beat these." We were thinking exactly the same thing!

The biggest thing I brought away from this was just how important side by side evaluation is. These speakers sounded great. It was truely being able to follow them with the same material that made choosing possible.

The first speakers I listened to I felt were amazing, but after working thought more sets...I was able to find some that were just majical in the way they imaged & created fullness & width in the soundstage & just brought the music to life. I came late & had to leave early, but while I was there, I feel we really put our souls into the process. My choice is very clear, I know Sonnie is still dancing, but hey, he's gotta live with em. Either way, he's got a nice pair of speakers.


----------



## Picture_Shooter

So what's the verdict? 

Waiting....1.....2.....3......... 557... :d


----------



## admranger

lcaillo said:


> Hey, they are both really impressive. Still, my mind is made up. My final test, Bad Sneakers by Steely Dan...I can hear the background vocal by Michael McDonald and the piano when Fagan harmonizes with it, both more clearly on my final choice.


Since I was in the 4th row of the Vegas Steely Dan concert Friday night [/humblebrag], you've definitely got my attention! I wish they'd do a studio or live album with Keith Carlock at the drums. Ridiculous skills.

Can't wait to see the results!


----------



## lcaillo

I just got home and am still working on typing up my impressions. I left Sonnie and Wayne still tweaking with the room and playing with the sub and other product, making room measurements, etc. For all I know at this point they may still be experimenting so I am not sure when Sonnie is going to start posting his comments and decision.


----------



## hyghwayman

Waiting, waiting, WAITING :thud: this is the most tiring wait :foottap:

Glad to read the progression, it sounds like ya'll have been having a good time. Thanks for sharing :T


----------



## JQueen

I feel like I'm getting medical test results.. Waiting by the phone


----------



## Tonto

JQueen wrote:



> I feel like I'm getting medical test results.. Waiting by the phone


So sorry, guess I should not have teased yall like that, but I just couldnt' help myself!!! :devil:


----------



## tesseract

admranger said:


> Since I was in the 4th row of the Vegas Steely Dan concert Friday night [/humblebrag], you've definitely got my attention! I wish they'd do a studio or live album with Keith Carlock at the drums. Ridiculous skills.


Seen them a couple of weeks ago, and yes, Carlock is a BEAST!


----------



## Sonnie

I apologize guys, but it may be a few days or a week or so before we get the final results thread put together. There is an awful lot to present. We will be including quite a bit of info about each speaker. This was a very detailed and time consuming event that just plain begs of patience to present it properly.

I am actually still lingering just a little... even bringing a couple of other speakers back into the room just to make absolutely sure of what I was hearing. I think it is good to give some of these a second chance after my ears have had a bit of a break. My impressions haven't really changed thus far, but I want to make absolutely sure that every speaker has had the benefit of the doubt. 

Bear with us please.


----------



## Picture_Shooter

That is very understandable and I figure it would take more time then mentioned earlier.  

However..... would you be able to share with us which "2" speakers you are / were battling out with? :dumbcrazy::T





Sonnie said:


> I apologize guys, but it may be a few days or a week or so before we get the final results thread put together. There is an awful lot to present. We will be including quite a bit of info about each speaker. This was a very detailed and time consuming event that just plain begs of patience to present it properly.
> 
> I am actually still lingering just a little... even bringing a couple of other speakers back into the room just to make absolutely sure of what I was hearing. I think it is good to give some of these a second chance after my ears have had a bit of a break. My impressions haven't really changed thus far, but I want to make absolutely sure that every speaker has had the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Bear with us please.


----------



## Sonnie

I would like to, but I am afraid it would create a ton of questions and comments that I would need to respond to and that would take away my time to spend on preparing the results threads. Hopefully those questions will be answered within the results thread anyway. That needs to be my main focus for the next few days while I have a little bit of time.


----------



## chashint

Sometimes writing the report is as much work as doing the job.
Take as much time as you need it's even OK to take a short nap once every other night until the report is posted...


----------



## Sonnie

lol... like maybe a 20 minute power nap?


----------



## cuzed2

I vote for the Klipsch!
I had a lesser pair of RF35s and I loved them for music - nice response down to about 40Hz. Only reason I went a different direction was to scratch a speaker building DIY itch that I had.


----------



## cuzed2

cuzed2 said:


> I vote for the Klipsch!
> I had a lesser pair of RF35s and I loved them for music - nice response down to about 40Hz. Only reason I went a different direction was to scratch a speaker building DIY itch that I had.


Ooops - just realized I was probably a "day late and dollar short" getting this vote submitted...


----------



## Picture_Shooter

It sure got quite in here!!


----------



## Sonnie

Writing now... can't talk... :shhh:


----------



## tonyvdb

We need a big sign that can be hung on this thread saying "Do Not Disturb" :shh:


----------



## chashint

Or we need to pour on the encouragement.
:yikes:

:rofl2:

:neener:

:rofl:

:hsd:

:hail:

:clap:



:gah:

:mooooh:

:jump:

:surrender:


----------



## MrAcoustat

chashint said:


> Or we need to pour on the encouragement.
> :yikes:
> 
> :rofl2:
> 
> :neener:
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> :hsd:
> 
> :hail:
> 
> :clap:
> 
> 
> 
> :gah:
> 
> :mooooh:
> 
> :jump:
> 
> :surrender:


*Come back in a few weeks you should have the results.*


----------



## Picture_Shooter

tonyvdb said:


> We need a big sign that can be hung on this thread saying "Do Not Disturb" :shh:


Nah..... we all know better that Sonnie is not writing, he's rocking his CASA!!!

:hsd: :neener: :yikes: :rofl2:


----------



## DjPerfectTrip

Sounds like you guys had a good time. Can't wait to read about the results.


----------



## Sonnie

Oh yeah... it was a blast! As Wayne questioned... "And people do drugs for a high?"

This was a high indeed!

And yes... I just spent about two hours (out of the last three or so) writing... not even close to being finished.


----------



## hyghwayman

Sonnie said:


> Oh yeah... it was a blast! As Wayne questioned... "And people do drugs for a high?"
> 
> This was a high indeed!


:jump::jump::jump: I likes, just look at me name :heehee:


----------



## chashint

MrAcoustat said:


> *Come back in a few weeks you should have the results.*


A few weeks !!!
Now I know how my boss feels when he is waiting for one of my reports....LOL


----------



## a|F

Tic toc tic toc


----------



## admranger

Please take your time with the writeup. I'd rather have a top quality review later than something thrown together in a hurry (not that you'd do that). Besides, you need to step away from time to time to let things stew so you can add those little things that may be left out if the writing is rushed.

So, are you done yet? :neener:


----------



## Sonnie

Struggling... :huh:


----------



## hyghwayman

Sonnie said:


> Struggling... :huh:


:scratch: onder: 
Maybe firing up the grill and a cold drink would help :bigsmile:


----------



## wssmith

My wife appreciates the delay because she knows the results will prompt me to order speakers to compare!


----------



## chashint

Never let your wife monitor your hobby forums....just sayin


----------



## JQueen

Rule number 1- don't talk about home theater Shack(to the wife) everybody else you better talk about it 
Rule number 2- don't talk about home theater Shack(to the wife) everybody else you better talk about it


----------



## wssmith

Learned that lesson the hard way! I mentioned new speakers and she mentioned the new treadmill she wants. I'm trying to convince her the speakers are something the whole family will enjoy while a treadmill will eventually become an expensive clothes rack. Really want to compare the Arx to the HTD's or Emps. Looking forward to the Arx results!


----------



## Sonnie

It is taking a lot longer than we thought... we want to do well in presenting it and not just throw something out there. We appreciate the patience, even though I am pretty anxious myself to get it published.


----------



## Mike0206

Nice Sonnie! We will appreciate all the effort more so as well as the time involved in putting it together when it does get published. Looking forward to reading the extensive results!


----------



## Wooderson

I knew to give a few extra days before coming to look for these results. :crying:

Oh well, quality work takes time. We're all on the edge of our seats. Makes me wish I didn't like my Sonus Fabers so much that I can't really justify replacing them.


----------



## MrAcoustat

Wooderson said:


> I knew to give a few extra days before coming to look for these results. :crying:
> 
> Oh well, quality work takes time. We're all on the edge of our seats. Makes me wish I didn't like my Sonus Fabers so much that I can't really justify replacing them.


Seriously i don't think that there is a speaker in that bunch that can come close to your Sonus Faber, unless you have the cheepest model and even then.:heehee:

PS: Not to many $1,000.00 Sonus Faber speakers out there.


----------



## chashint

I would rather get the best effort write up so if takes several more days, it takes several more days.


----------



## Wooderson

Concerto L/R, Concertino in the center. I had the matching Concerto center channel, but it blew a tweater, so I bought a pair of used Concertino's from my buddy and stuck one in the center. The problem with owning really great speakers is that you no longer have an excuse to buy any more - at least at prices the 99% can afford.

I'm ashamed to say that I use(d) a pair of active Mackie/Tapco monitors for music in my bedroom. The built-in amps started buzzing in one of them, so I replaced it with my old college dorm room Onkyo amp (20 years old) and the other Concertino. I know it's blasphemous to have mismatched L and R, but I'm actually a little shocked at how good the setup sounds (along with the 8" sub in my sig). If there were a :blush: smiley, I would insert a few here. Ah, there is , so :blush: :blush: :blush: :blush:.

So yes, pretty much the cheapest Fabers, but still angelic Italian sound that I almost take for granted after having them for so many years (~12 years now).


----------



## chaluga

No matter what speaker I had I would want something different every 10 years or so. Just want a different sound. I enjoy the hunt for the next speaker


----------



## MrAcoustat

chaluga said:


> No matter what speaker I had I would want something different every 10 years or so. Just want a different sound. I enjoy the hunt for the next speaker


Not my case in 1984 i heard Acoustat's for the first time NEVER looked back panels NO BOXES i have been living OUTSIDE the box ever since, why mess with a good thing.


----------



## chashint

I tend to keep speakers for a very long time, but if you like to change up every 10 years or so that is certainly not excessive or frivolous.
There are lots of people on the various forums that apparently switch them out much more regularly.


----------



## Wooderson

Indeed, my wife was just telling me the other night that I should go out shopping for a new $1k+ pair of mains. She's more of a once every 7 years kind of gal.

Ok, that's enough sarcasm for the next few months. :liar:  :duck:


----------



## Wooderson

I'm going to pick a sleeper and predict a Tekton win. I would love to listen to the Pendragons.

http://hometheaterreview.com/tekton-design-pendragon-floorstanding-loudspeaker-reviewed/?page=2


----------



## KLH007

Where do the results appear, have they been published yet?


----------



## ALMFamily

KLH007 said:


> Where do the results appear, have they been published yet?


They are still putting everything together. I have seen some of the preliminary work, and I think everyone will be very pleased with all the time and effort our guys put into this.


----------



## MrAcoustat

Wooderson said:


> I'm going to pick a sleeper and predict a Tekton win. I would love to listen to the Pendragons.
> 
> http://hometheaterreview.com/tekton-design-pendragon-floorstanding-loudspeaker-reviewed/?page=2


*I will also make MY pick and will choose Magnepan MG-12 for 2 channel ONLY i would be surprised if it is there because if the winner is to be for Both 2 channel and home theater i would also not choose the MG-12s BUT for music i don't see ANYTHING better for $1,000.00 for ME - MYSELF - and I - *:wave::wave::wave:


----------



## Sonnie

We have the grammar/spellcheck setup for Thursday, so hopefully we are near the finish. This is quite detailed, but it should be worth it. It should be published by the weekend... hopefully... fingers crossed.


----------



## KLH007

Is there a discussion of the Jolida pre/Emerald Physics 100.2 combo in your conclusions, elsewhere, or can you give us a feel for how this new entry class D ( Hypex family) amp performs and sounds?


----------



## Sonnie

We ended up not using it at all... actually I sent it all back because we never had time to break any of it in and did not feel it would fair to test it against an amp that had 150+ hours on it already. We also ended up not having time to test amps anyway... the speakers took every minute of our time, which is one reason I want to dial back the number we evaluate to five in the next event. I wish it could have worked out, but it just didn't happen.


----------



## Tonto

Well guy's, it looks like party time is getting close. I'm finished with my reviews now. Will have to read through again for grammar/spelling. I bet Sonnie is close to posting the thread!


----------



## lcaillo

I have finished mine and am going back through and doing edits for clarity and grammar.

I know many are very curious to see our results. The amount of data collected and the amount of listening we did required a great deal of time to put together useful reviews with both the actual data and our subjective impressions. Thanks to Wayne (AudioCraver) for doing the bulk of the work. Just getting all of his data and observations together would be a daunting task, but we had four people listening who all had independent observations. We had to find a way to put it all in a format that is both informative and has enough context to be fair to all products, yet reveal what we found to be differences. Sonnie led us through the format and I think we have a good balance.

It was a very interesting experience. We were all present for most of the other's listening, and we did share observations, but no one pressed his opinion on the others. In fact, most of us were restrained about sharing too much of what we experienced until others had made notes and listened extensively. It was surprising how often our observations were similar. Of course, there were differences, as we all have different priorities and tastes.

We are very close to releasing the results. Thank you all for your patience. And I cannot wait for the next time we get to do this.


----------



## OZZIERP

Any plans to do this with AVR's?


----------



## lcaillo

No plans to do so. I doubt that we will, as the consensus is that differences within the power capability of a group of AVRs would be minimal. Maybe we could tack on a DBT of a couple of AVRs or amps. We intended to do so this time but just did not have the time. The next time we do it we will have a format to follow and a better idea of how much time it takes and we might be able to squeeze something like that in.


----------



## OZZIERP

Thanks as an installer I never get to AB the gear but I get to hear the different AVR/speaker setups.
I always wanted to run an AVR vs
AVR like Audyssey vs MCACC vs YPAO.
Did not mean to derail the thread but was not sure where to put this.
Love the speaker test and appreciate the time and effort you guys put into this for members to benefit from.


----------



## Greenster

Jeopardy music.......


Can't wait to read the results. Thanks for doing this. It makes the forum a fun place to visit.


----------



## Tonto

Your welcome, it was a lot of work/fun. It was an all day(s) thing, but before we knew it the day was over. I guess it helps when your doing something you enjoy, & doing it with people you like.

I don't know of another forum that has done anything like this. I kinda hinted to Sonnie that I hoped this would morph into an annual event. There seems to be a lot of interest in the shootout, I think people have a good regard for the forum & trust that we will call it like it is. I can promise you, we are calling just like we hear it.


----------



## Greenster

It is nice to know that you do not have any hidden addenda pushing your results.


----------



## lcaillo

Well, no hidden agendas, but everyone has biases and preferences, and different tendencies when it comes to sensitivity to details. In other words, while we tried to take out variables to make the comparison fair, there are always qualifiers to what we conclude, like the fact the we used a tube amp and placed the speakers for best imaging. Most people won't have either in their installation.

The agenda was not hidden, but it was getting the best fit for Sonnie's room. I just hope that people take the observations in that context and realize that speaker selection is a very subjective and personal preference. What surprised me was how similar the observations were, even though we come from very different places with very different experience and preferences going in.


----------



## Sunlesstrawhat

Sonnie said:


> We have the grammar/spellcheck setup for Thursday, so hopefully we are near the finish. This is quite detailed, but it should be worth it. It should be published by the weekend... hopefully... fingers crossed.


I'm looking forward to the results and have my fingers crossed as well for this weekend's publication.


----------



## Sonnie

Maybe late tonight? Maybe!


----------



## JQueen

Sonnie said:


> Maybe late tonight? Maybe!


And the crowd goes Wild!!!!!!


----------



## Picture_Shooter

Sonnie said:


> Maybe late tonight? Maybe!


:clap: :T :bigsmile: 


Lets hurry it up, I don't want to be this old lddude: when it's out.


----------



## chashint

I am pretty sure that once the article is posted it will ignite a firestorm. We will just have to wait and see if it's a brush fire or if it's scorched earth.


----------



## tonyvdb

Ill bet you it will appear in the HTS newsletter before its posted here so better sign up if your not


----------



## Sunlesstrawhat

Sonnie said:


> Maybe late tonight? Maybe!


Can't wait... thank you so much.


----------



## theJman

OK, since no one else has done it yet I guess I will...

I know who the winner is. Ha Ha Ha! :banana:


----------



## Sonnie

So do I. :neener:


----------



## B- one

Sonnie said:


> Maybe late tonight? Maybe!


If someone isn't watching football.


----------



## Picture_Shooter

Sonnie said:


> So do I. :neener:


If ya do then spill it why don't ya?


----------



## lcaillo

chashint said:


> I am pretty sure that once the article is posted it will ignite a firestorm. We will just have to wait and see if it's a brush fire or if it's scorched earth.


I hope not. Controversy would be an easy way to stir up posting, but that is not what we are after. We really tried to give each speaker a fair listen and tried to point out what we found to like about each. And there was much to like in the group of speakers we chose.


----------



## lcaillo

Sonnie said:


> So do I. :neener:


Actually, Sonnie had so much fun with it that he is ready to move on to the $2500 speakers.:spend:


----------



## NewGuy3232

Just finished reading through this thread. One of the reviewers said the final two have similarities and its pretty obvious to me its the Magnepan and the Tekton Lore as the final two. With the Lore being the winner because of better bass.


----------



## NewGuy3232

Sorry to ruin the fun but after reading this thread I read the "$2,500 shootout thread" at the speakers section of this forum and this is what was posted by the reviewer.

_$2,500 Speaker Evaluation Candidates

We had soooo much fun doing the $1,000 speakers evaluation, we are going to have a $2,500 speaker evaluation... consisting of a maximum of 5 (five) speakers costing no more than $2,500. Likely we will stay in the cost frame of $2,000 - $2,500.

These are not necessarily for me, but we will have a voting poll and winning speaker like we did on the $1,000 event. I won't say that I ain't gonna keep a pair... you never know. They will have to be awfully good, no doubt. Just in case, we will stick with black in a non-sheen finish. We must be able to power them with the Rogue Cronus Magnum Integrated Tube Amp at about 100 WPC.

Tentatively I have on my short list the following:

MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL at $2,195 

Tekton Pendragon at $2,499 

Emerald Physics CS2P at $2,490 (thru Underwood HiFi with discount)

Those are just a few I am thinking about for now... nothing definite, but one thing we did learn is that even with two day there just isn't time for more than about 4-5 pairs of speakers. Maybe we do 5 this round and then have another round with 5 and then have two speakers go head to head. At any rate, we are going to limit the number of speakers to a max of 5 for this round. It will likely be on up in the Fall/Winter before we do this... possibly November/December or even January/February. Nothing like preparing ahead of time.


EDIT: Once we get up 10-12 nominees (or more)... we will have a poll to select the top 5 for this event.


Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...aker-evaluation-candidates.html#ixzz2eG6a4fYT_




Tekton is up again for the $2,500 shootout, its pretty obvious to me now the Lore as the winner.:neener:


----------



## lcaillo

NewGuy3232 said:


> Just finished reading through this thread. One of the reviewers said the final two have similarities and its pretty obvious to me its the Magnepan and the Tekton Lore as the final two. With the Lore being the winner because of better bass.


What do you find similar about these two? They are on the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of sensitivity. Of course, all of the speakers were much more similar than you would expect, considering the very different technologies, so maybe you hit the nail on the head. But I ain't tellin...gotta wait for Sonnie, and who knows, maybe he changed his mind since he has had all those speakers laying around his house since we left.


----------



## Greenster

I just want to read how each sounded. 


Post 


Please.


----------



## lcaillo

It is coming. There are many pages to edit, and lots of notes to look back over to review to make sure that we don't mix things up or mistakenly attribute something that we did not experience. There is much to read about each speaker. Lots of credit has to go to Wayne for his work on this. I just kinda went along for the ride and enjoyed myself.:yes:


----------



## NewGuy3232

Thanks for the review! Cant wait!


----------



## Sonnie

The Results are up... although there might be a few typo's here and there... bear with us, as we find them, we will fix them. It's just too much to get absolutely perfect! But it is UP... Posted... DONE! 

*RESULTS*


----------



## MrAcoustat

NewGuy3232 said:


> Just finished reading through this thread. One of the reviewers said the final two have similarities and its pretty obvious to me its the Magnepan and the Tekton Lore as the final two. With the Lore being the winner because of better bass.



If that is the case, again i will ALWAYS choose QUALITY over QUANTITY always and for ME Magnepan give's you true quality bass.


The winner is.


----------



## Mike0206

Read the results guys.........it's a great read


----------



## NewGuy3232

NO!!!! I just know that Sonnie changed the finalist after my post!


Thank you very much for the reviews and the time guys. Well appreciated! Fantastic job! :jump:


----------



## NewGuy3232

Why aren't the Tekton Lore's up for sale?


----------



## JQueen

It feels good to be in the 5%  had me worried when I started to read about it being damaged!!! Anyways congrats on YOUR choice of speakers for your 2 channel setup, all the speakers would be great choices for any buyers looking. For all involve in the write up/listening phase GREAT JOB!!!

Btw all the speakers that had to sit outside the room and wait for the new ones to be played were jealous


----------



## gtpsuper24

JQueen said:


> It feels good to be in the 5%  had me worried when I started to read about it being damaged!!! Anyways congrats on YOUR choice of speakers for your 2 channel setup, all the speakers would be great choices for any buyers looking. For all involve in the write up/listening phase GREAT JOB!!!
> 
> Btw all the speakers that had to sit outside the room and wait for the new ones to be played were jealous



It does feel pretty cool to be in the minority :T

I watched the development of the A5 on the TAI forum and waited close to two years to see it released and glad I jumped on them pretty much the same day they posted on the site to buy. 

I've had my A5s for a year or so and still enjoy pure 2ch with them. But HT is even better :bigsmile:


----------



## tcarcio

Just wanted to post here also and say you guy's did a bang up job, Congrats to the A5's and to whoever wins the cash. :spend:


----------



## Sonnie

Thanks guys... appreciate the kind words. :T



NewGuy3232 said:


> Why aren't the Tekton Lore's up for sale?


I did not purchase them, they were sent on the house for the evaluation. I was planning on buying them had they been the speakers of choice. I think Eric would sell them if you want to contact him. It would probably make him feel better about the results if someone did buy them. They are packed up and at my office ready to be shipped back to him. No labels yet.


----------



## NewHTbuyer

I didn't get around to voting, but I probably would have picked between the Focal, Arx and HTD. I friend if mine has some Lores, but I have not gotten over to hear them yet. One day soon....


----------



## chashint

lcaillo said:


> I hope not. Controversy would be an easy way to stir up posting, but that is not what we are after. We really tried to give each speaker a fair listen and tried to point out what we found to like about each. And there was much to like in the group of speakers we chose.


I don't think your review will be controversial at all, I do think there may be passionate responses to the results of the shoot out.
I don't recall which speaker it was that "needs" a special base or stand to accommodate a 6" vertical axis, but that generated quite a stir during the speaker candidate phase...LOL
It's odd to me that people are so defensive of their hobby 'stuff' but they are.


----------



## jmschnur

Interesting that the ML speaker came out so well in this price range.


----------



## needspeed52

With the A5s placement at 7' 6" apart and 6' 2" to the LP, this seems odd to me that the distance between the speakers is longer than to the LP.It was also mentioned that angled outward the HFR wasn't affected at all. Toe in at 18 o, correct me if I'm wrong but that is very little toe in, could some one give me an example what 18 o toe in would be like, is that almost firing straight forward or close to it, any thoughts on placing them just firing straight forward with no toe in? Thanks, and congrats gorb, I still wish it was me.:T
Cheers Jeff


----------



## AudiocRaver

You are correct, the A5's were firing almost straight forward. The wide spacing and aiming look a little weird from the listening position, but that is what worked.:bigsmile:

Although we did not try aiming the A5's straight forward that I recall, in my past experience working with toe-in angles to optimize soundstage & imaging, turning the speakers out beyond the optimum angle causes the soundstage to unravel in the center very quickly. Only a few more degrees (5 to 10) and it just starts to fall apart.

With the horizontal dispersion from those tweeters, we really did not hear - or measure - significant rolloff of the highs even at that odd angle.


----------



## Sonnie

jmschnur said:


> Interesting that the ML speaker came out so well in this price range.


I think we were all surprised at how well they did. Seriously... I had discounted them from the get go as thinking they would not be a contender. I learned a valuable lesson... don't discount any speaker until you hear it, although it is hard to do sometimes.




needspeed52 said:


> With the A5s placement at 7' 6" apart and 6' 2" to the LP, this seems odd to me that the distance between the speakers is longer than to the LP.It was also mentioned that angled outward the HFR wasn't affected at all. Toe in at 18 o, correct me if I'm wrong but that is very little toe in, could some one give me an example what 18 o toe in would be like, is that almost firing straight forward or close to it, any thoughts on placing them just firing straight forward with no toe in? Thanks, and congrats gorb, I still wish it was me.:T
> Cheers Jeff


Jeff... have you been to any of the audio shows? That is when I first realized the equilateral triangle was not always the best ... and that having the speakers a lot wider than the distance from the speakers to the listener is not uncommon. In one room at CAF, I believe it was the Classic room, those speakers were 28' apart with the listener only 8-10's from the front plane of the speakers... probably 16' or so from each speaker. The imaging was incredible. There have been several rooms I have been in that the speakers were much wider than the distance from speaker to listener and they sounded marvelous.

You can get an idea from this picture how much the 18 degrees is... the lines in the carpet are perpendicular to the listener. Notice some required more toe-in than others.


----------



## lcaillo

needspeed52 said:


> With the A5s placement at 7' 6" apart and 6' 2" to the LP, this seems odd to me that the distance between the speakers is longer than to the LP.It was also mentioned that angled outward the HFR wasn't affected at all. Toe in at 18 o, correct me if I'm wrong but that is very little toe in, could some one give me an example what 18 o toe in would be like, is that almost firing straight forward or close to it, any thoughts on placing them just firing straight forward with no toe in? Thanks, and congrats gorb, I still wish it was me.:T
> Cheers Jeff


With regard to toe in, my experience is that most speakers provide the largest soundstage when toed in somewhere between pointing directly at the listener to pointing straight toward the back wall. Usually more toe in than less, relative to pointing straight to the back wall, is better, but few speakers sound best aimed directly at the listener. This is strictly in terms of soundstage reproduction, not frequency response. Generally, I also find most speakers also sound better farther apart than the distance to the listener, i.e. not an equilateral triangle. There are so many variables with respect to the room, however, that these are not hard rules.

We tried lots of positions for each speaker, some of them with virtually no toe in, usually starting with an equilateral triangle directed straight at the listener. At each location we varied the toe in considerably. The goal remember, was soundstage.


----------



## Schorschi

my favourite is Magnepan 12

regards

Schorschi


----------



## narval

My vote Vandersteen 2Ce


----------



## MrAcoustat

Schorschi said:


> my favourite is Magnepan 12
> 
> regards
> 
> Schorschi


You are my kind of man, SMOOTH - SMOOTH - SMOOTH - yes a sleeper.


----------



## needspeed52

I take it then that 18 o is pretty well toed in then, or am I missing something?


----------



## mlundy57

18 degrees is very little toe in


----------



## AudiocRaver

lcaillo said:


> With regard to toe in, my experience is that most speakers provide the largest soundstage when toed in somewhere between pointing directly at the listener to pointing straight toward the back wall. Usually more toe in than less, relative to pointing straight to the back wall, is better, but few speakers sound best aimed directly at the listener. This is strictly in terms of soundstage reproduction, not frequency response. Generally, I also find most speakers also sound better farther apart than the distance to the listener, i.e. not an equilateral triangle. There are so many variables with respect to the room, however, that these are not hard rules.
> 
> We tried lots of positions for each speaker, some of them with virtually no toe in, usually starting with an equilateral triangle directed straight at the listener. At each location we varied the toe in considerably. The goal remember, was soundstage.


My own experience with finding a speaker's best soundstage falls right in line with Leonard's guidelines above. The equilateral triangle hardly ever does it, and rarely does the listener end up on-axis.


----------



## AudiocRaver

Schorschi said:


> my favourite is Magnepan 12
> 
> regards
> 
> Schorschi


I gotta tell you, I was knocked out by the Magnepans. They have something special going on. Wish I could spend more time with them to figure out what makes them tick.


----------



## MrAcoustat

AudiocRaver said:


> I gotta tell you, I was knocked out by the Magnepans. They have something special going on. Wish I could spend more time with them to figure out what makes them tick.


Now wait till you hear the 1.7s for $1,800.00 in the up to $2,500.00 shoot out, you can buy lot's of music for the $700.00 difference, All you need is GOOD JUICE.


----------



## Jon Lane

lcaillo said:


> With regard to toe in, my experience is that most speakers provide the largest soundstage when toed in somewhere between pointing directly at the listener to pointing straight toward the back wall.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Generally, I also find most speakers also sound better farther apart than the distance to the listener, i.e. not an equilateral triangle. There are so many variables with respect to the room, however, that these are not hard rules.





AudiocRaver said:


> My own experience with finding a speaker's best soundstage falls right in line with Leonard's guidelines above. The equilateral triangle hardly ever does it, and rarely does the listener end up on-axis.


It's really good to see these things discussed. So many other places were affordable gear is discussed, getting balanced, musical sound is rarely mentioned.*

The A5 - and all of our models - are designed with the toe roughly halfway between square to the room (no toe) and aimed at the listener. I happen to prefer a more closed triangle, however, with the speakers about three units apart and four units from the listener. Naturally, mileage varies.

Splitting the toe-in like that gets the tweeters close to their reference level all the way to the top of their range, but it allows them to be dialed down a little too by clocking them away from straight at the listener. 

This variable can be important so maybe start where you can just see the inside faces of each cabinet - each speaker fires just past you to the left and right. Please do experiment twisting them in and out together, listening for a point that's not too bright on one hand, and where the image is not too disembodied on the other.

(*is it me or have other forums reverted to conversations _not_ about listening and enjoying music? I could be wrong but bench-racing presumptions about technology doesn't promote musical enjoyment.)


----------



## theJman

Jon Lane said:


> (*is it me or have other forums reverted to conversations _not_ about listening and enjoying music? I could be wrong but bench-racing presumptions about technology doesn't promote musical enjoyment.)


Nope, it's not just you...

For the most parts forums are dominated by bench racers, people who conclude that numbers tell all. I'm not among them, which was what my recent post lamented regarding the science vs. the art of loudspeaker design. Imperceptible variations in measured response are debated ad nauseam far too often, with people seemingly oblivious to the fact that room acoustics are going to change the measurements anyway.

I definitely look at the numbers and use them as a barometer, but for the most part I let those fleshy things on either side of my head decide. My ears ultimately determine where I spend my money. I make no apologies for that either.


----------



## Jon Lane

theJman said:


> Nope, it's not just you...
> 
> For the most parts forums are dominated by bench racers, people who conclude that numbers tell all. I'm not among them, which was what my recent post lamented regarding the science vs. the art of loudspeaker design. Imperceptible variations in measured response are debated ad nauseam far too often, with people seemingly oblivious to the fact that room acoustics are going to change the measurements anyway.
> 
> I definitely look at the numbers and use them as a barometer, but for the most part I let those fleshy things on either side of my head decide. My ears ultimately determine where I spend my money. I make no apologies for that either.


That's a relief. The degree of misinformation is striking: $500 receivers are reference grade (so use them to run anything), tube amps are all "colored", constant directivity is the holy grail, no passive components can possibly affect sound, and so on.

(I tend to emphasize first arrival a lot more than reflections, so I cringe more than most at inadequate, unbalanced systems in expensive treated rooms. I've been involved in countless professional installations but have to admit that the best sound I ever heard was in the worst room I've ever seen. )

There's even a debate somewhere about the relative cost of the speakers in this get-together. Apparently that parameter needs to be dialed in to the dollar for some reason. I'd like to point out that loudspeakers have an approximate _acoustical_ size that may or may not conform to the price of other equivalent speakers in that size class.

But mostly, just listen, which is what happened here. HTS does the community a real service when it reports how to do audio, how to evaluate - with ears, - and how to parse the results, completely regardless how the cards fall on any particular weekend. These reports distinguish this community and they serve it well. Readers can vicariously hear back through your prose into each design and think, yup, that's probably how that _would_ sound, wouldn't it? 

I've always thought that everything has a sound and if you want to really get to know the gear, everything sounds exactly like what it is. Bench-racing isn't ever a substitute. Go hear something. There's zero risk and sound is the goal anyway.


----------



## Tonto

John Lane wrote:



> HTS does the community a real service when it reports how to do audio, how to evaluate - with ears, - and how to parse the results, completely regardless how the cards fall on any particular weekend.


Thanks for the kind words. You nailed it exactly. After all the hype clears, and your left with the sound, you realize that this is what it is all about. Picking a set of speakers that gives you that appreciation for your music. That breaths that "life" into it that just makes you want to listen.



> These reports distinguish this community and they serve it well.


I think that our readers can apprectiate that we did this evaluation in the way that represents what is really important (in our opinion). We love this hobby & try to bring our insights to them in an unbiased way. This is why I personally participate in this forum.


----------



## ALMFamily

theJman said:


> Nope, it's not just you...
> 
> For the most parts forums are dominated by bench racers, people who conclude that numbers tell all. I'm not among them, which was what my recent post lamented regarding the science vs. the art of loudspeaker design. Imperceptible variations in measured response are debated ad nauseam far too often, with people seemingly oblivious to the fact that room acoustics are going to change the measurements anyway.
> 
> I definitely look at the numbers and use them as a barometer, but for the most part I let those fleshy things on either side of my head decide. My ears ultimately determine where I spend my money. I make no apologies for that either.


Thanks Jim - you said what I was thinking a whole lot better than I could...

I personally find it fascinating that there is a belief out there that spending oodles of money gets you better sound. I can tell you - I have heard systems that are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars in the last year that I would not want to have in my home. On the flip side, I have heard system in the much more affordable range that I would dearly love to have....


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## lcaillo

The adage "you get what you pay for" is certainly not reliable. I prefer to say that you get what you pay for if you do your homework and you are lucky. Doing your homework takes much of the luck out of the equation.


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## MrAcoustat

lcaillo said:


> The adage "you get what you pay for" is certainly not reliable. I prefer to say that you get what you pay for if you do your homework and you are lucky. Doing your homework takes much of the luck out of the equation.


*For ME the adage ( you get what you pay for ) is reliable 99% of the time and yes there are exceptions, so is the adage ( when it's to good to be true, most of the time it isn't ) *


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## needspeed52

I just wanted to say THANK YOU to all who contibuted to this informative and detailed listening evaluation. I wasn't concerned which speaker would win, in my honest opinion I know the A5 is a winner for me, every day I am reminded of that when I sit back and enjoy what I'm hearing and not thinking to myself should I have purchased a more expensive model? I don't let these things get in the way of my enjoying what I have. Thanks again to all you guys for this remarkable adventure, looking forward to the next one.
Best Regards, Jeff


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## AudiocRaver

needspeed52 said:


> I just wanted to say THANK YOU to all who contibuted to this informative and detailed listening evaluation. I wasn't concerned which speaker would win, in my honest opinion I know the A5 is a winner for me, every day I am reminded of that when I sit back and enjoy what I'm hearing and not thinking to myself should I have purchased a more expensive model? I don't let these things get in the way of my enjoying what I have. Thanks again to all you guys for this remarkable adventure, looking forward to the next one.
> Best Regards, Jeff


We appreciate the feedback. Obviously we are having a good time with it. But we also approach it with a sense of responsibility to HTS members and other readers. We will certainly give you our best in November.

And congratulations on being an A5 owner.


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## needspeed52

AudiocRaver said:


> We appreciate the feedback. Obviously we are having a good time with it. But we also approach it with a sense of responsibility to HTS members and other readers. We will certainly give you our best in November.
> 
> And congratulations on being an A5 owner.


I expect nothing less from you guys, the service you provide is priceless to experienced as well as newcomers to this fascinating hobby, keep up the good work, believe me it is greatly appreciated. Now I have to start saving up for the next speaker class winner :spend:
Cheers Jeff


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## randy2112

What ever happened to the review? This tread was linked in the newsletter I got today...


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## Leonard Caillouet

I can't post a link because I don't have enough posts, but, look in forums_two-channel-audio.


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