# Sticky  Are projectors still a secret?



## Instal

I was wondering if you all think that projectors are still widely unknown to the general public? Do you think that if more people knew about them that they would but a projector over a TV? Also would that have a positive or negative effect on the industry and it's customers?


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## Harold Dale

Well I think majority of people know about them. But I also think that most of them think they are either too expensive or too complicated and what not. Not to mention that most people would not replace their TV with them because of daytime viewing and what not. But they are getting much more popular and we are seeing some pretty low prices on newer projectors now. I was extremely surprised to see 1080p FPTV's for under 3 grand so soon.


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## Instal

Ya 1080p for $3000.00, it wasn't more than 3 or 4 years ago that you would pay $10,000 or more for a 1080p projector. Remarkable isn't it. Now if only all the other cool components would come down as much we would all be very happy HT nuts!


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## rumonkey2

I initially thought "all in ones" would make pjs become more mainstream, and perhaps they have. It doesn't help that the big box stores do little, if anything, to let the general public know whats out there and how they are much more affordable than even 1 year ago...
And still, TOO LARGE a % of the general populace knows too little about even the basics of display technology...so a front pj would be an extreme "extravagance"...


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## Instal

That's kinda what I thought too. But lets say that more people did know about them and they were as prevelent as TV's are today, how would that change how you feel about being a PJ owner? I have to admit with a smidge of shame that I would miss the feeling of belonging to a community that has made a discovery that few know about. What would I do without that smug smile when someone is telling me about their new TV with the "massive" 50" screen? Then to be able to enjoy the look of dismay when you explain that you could fit four of those on your screen. Am I petty and shallow? Perhaps, but it is a guilty pleasure that I would surely miss, and I'm sure I'm not alone!


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## gsmollin

The front projector requires a fair amount of work to set it up correctly in a home theater. Most people think its a big deal to plug in all the cables on their new plasma TV; they are not about to start surveying a room for a projector ceiling mount. I was surprised by the amount of work I had to invest to ceiling mount my pj, and I'm pretty capable. It was still several days work to design the pj mounting attachments, survey the pj mount, install signal boxes in the wall, run cables between the rack and the pj, run electrical service, hang the screen, mount the pj, and aim it. Compare that with put the set down along this wall and plug an HDMI cable into it.

I predict you will remain smug and shallow.


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## Instal

I think you nailed it GS. After even beginning to hear about the amount of work necessary to to get a PJ up and running, most people will say "screw that". However I do believe that there is a small percentage of people that would go with a PJ if they knew this basic fact. There is nothing you can't display on a TV that you can't display on a projector. When I describe my home theater to those that are unfamiliar the question I allways get is "what can you watch on it". It seems they think that it is very specialized or good for only one source. Remember most people don't go any further than thier local brick and mortar for thier home entertainment needs and as rumonkey said they do not do PJ's any justice at all.


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## gsmollin

I heard that. I couldn't get anyone to demo a projector that cost less that $4000, and that was only one. Projectors in show rooms were $10,000 - $36,000. The same high-end showroom had a dozen HDTV sets for less that $4000, including rear-projection sets. 

I don't know why this is true, but I was told that the markup on projectors was very low. The store would only make money on the installation. The average buyer of a <$3000 projector is not going to spend $1500 on an installation; he will DIY. The average $36,000 projector buyer is getting the full home installation treatment. Actually, the $36,000 projector was a Runco, and they are always professionally installed.


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## polygonkilla

I think they are a BIG secret - I've always dreamed of having a PJ but I thought they were just too
expensive. One day I just started browsing in some of these Home Theater forums and I noticed that
people were fixing up their basements for HT, so I looked for what PJ they were using. I figured that
the PJs would be like $7000 - $10,000 but when I looked up the prices some of them were like $1200.
I was floored - that you can get an HD PJ for so cheap. So now I'm a Happy owner of a Sanyo Z5
and could not be happier


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## Instal

That is pretty much what happened to me as well. A friend of mine showed me a Sony VPLHS1 that was $4000.00 Cdn at the time. Pretty expensive but within range so I went for it. I had no idea I could have a 100" picture for that kind of money. For that matter I really didn't know I could have a 100" picture!Two years later I also have a Z5 which I paid half as much for and it is twice the pj. I think if you are not a techy person or luck into the info you will not even know they exist. The brick and mortars aren't going to try to push them as it is too tough a sale to educate a customer from scratch. They would much rather just give them what they expect.


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## Fred33

This true with all technology... the initial "prototypes" are going to be expensive, but as the need is created so the prices usually drop over time.


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## gsmollin

I think most people just don't want a front projector. They want a flat screen TV. Front projectors have been the beneficiaries of rear projection TV sales, because those are what have been the market force. Now with the drop of RPTV sales because flat screen prices have dropped, we may see stagnation in the FP market as well.


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## MatrixDweller

Projectors are too cumbersome for a Big Box retailer to sell effectively. A tube/panel TV takes up 5 sqft where as a projector needs to be back a good 10 feet from a big screen in a dark room to be shown effectively. 

The good audio specialty stores have dedicated rooms to do this and showcase other HT gear. Of course they don't normally swap out the projector unless you are really serious about buying and set up a viewing time.

I ended up buying an Epson 550 LCD projector off Ebay for $500 (a steal) and $50 for shipping. I built my own screen out of laminate for a cool $70. Nowhere could I get the PQ and screen size for $620 or quadruple that in a flat panel.

It is more complicated to set up and I do agree that many people don't know what the scoop is about projectors. My parent's thought it would be something like an old slide projector. They were flabbergasted when they saw it in action for the first time. In fact most people who've watched a movie on my system are blown away at first. Most people I know haven't actually seen a HT projector in action.


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## Bob_99

For myself, the lack of a dedicated room means several windows to deal with, plus the room doubles as a living room and in addition because of a supporting post, mounting a projector would be problematic at best. The short version, some of us aren't fortunate enough to have a suitable environment for them.

:sad:

Bob


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## tonyvdb

The big drawback of using a projector for a TV is that most households use the TV at least 3 hrs a day and given the cost of the projector bulbs it is not cost effective as a TV.
Strictly for movie watching is another story as then most projectors are only on about 6hrs a week substantially lengthening the bulb life.


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## Bob_99

Tony makes a very good point and I wonder if people with projectors can tell us what affects the bulb most: the number of hours that it's on or the number of times that it is turned on and off. As I recall my electronics, the current surge for a lamp is the most stressful time but I'm not sure that's true with new technology.

Bob


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## tonyvdb

I know for a fact that turning on a projector before its been off for at least 2hrs is very hard on the bulb. In our house the TV gets turned on and off many times a day and that would be very hard on a projector.
Bulbs cost around $300-$450 each and last around 2000hrs so used as a TV this could be less than a year of use. Plus the heat generated by the projector and you who live in Hot climates this could also shorten the lifespan.


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## gsmollin

The bulb problem is real, but also there for rear projection sets and those have been very popular. Front projectors are not TVs. They can't be kept on, just for company, in a bright room. They are home theater.


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## Mike P.

The cost of bulbs is no longer an issue for a lot of people. There is a growing number of people who do DIY projectors. A spin off of the DIY projector community is projector bulbs being sold for $40 to $60 dollars, depending on what model of projector it is and what type of bulb it takes. If you're willing to do a little work by taking the light engine apart and replacing the bulb,you can save big money. The bulbs are being stocked here.
http://www.diypro.us/
Any questions regarding a specific projector can be asked here.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59091&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
"ywh" is suppling the bulbs from China and the store is run by another member in the U.S. by the name of "18wheeler"


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## Bob_99

I don't wish to sidetrack this thread, but I found this interesting because it made me more aware of a line separating true (dedicated) home theaters (if I can use that description) versus setups that you can casually watch HD TV. 

Bob


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## wbassett

gsmollin said:


> The bulb problem is real, but also there for rear projection sets and those have been very popular. Front projectors are not TVs. They can't be kept on, just for company, in a bright room. They are home theater.





Bob_99 said:


> I don't wish to sidetrack this thread, but I found this interesting because it made me more aware of a line separating true (dedicated) home theaters (if I can use that description) versus setups that you can casually watch HD TV.
> 
> Bob


I don't think they are a secret myself and agree with the various posts, but Bob and gs nailed it if you ask me... I think there is a big misconception about them. As good as they can be, a projector isn't going to look like an HDTV or can be used as a TV and I think that's what some people expect. There certainly isn't anything wrong with watching cable or satellite programming on a projector, but it's not the same as a dedicated HDTV set, at least in my opinion.

Projectors are a bit softer and more film like and some people just don't like that. They want the big bright over saturated look of TV and I know some that swear projectors look horrible by comparison. It's just a difference in viewing tastes to me.

Then the bulb issue... projectors eat bulbs much faster than RPTV's (CRT projector guys have it made in this area) plus as the bulb ages the picture brightness drops off, adding to the mind set that they are dimmer and more of a pain. We have a 55" SXRD HDTV in our living room as well as the 106" screen for the projector. For casual viewing or certain movies we use the 55" set, for big epic movies we use the projector.

I was seriously looking at the 70" JVC HDTV and possibly thinking of just dumping the projector altogether, but still liked the film like look and larger size the projector had to offer. I think we'll be seeing some 80" HDTV's at reasonable prices soon and that's going to have an impact on the projector market for sure... brighter more vibrant images, easier to install, ability to be watched any time...

Will HDTVs reach a size where it's a death call for projectors? Nah. Projectors will change in their uses and size will go even bigger. I can't wait for the technology that's coming that will reduce bulb prices or even eliminate the need for replacement altogether (laser projectors). The big HDTV may replace a projector in the living room, but that same projector may find a new home in the bedroom, or as an outdoor theater, pool theater... the possibilities are endless. Once place I never see HDTV replacing projectors though is in dedicated HT setups. There projectors are still king, but that's also what they were really made for, not just a 'big' TV.


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## gsmollin

There is one real advantage for a front projector- it's small size. The screen is a passive device, and can be rolled up into the ceiling when not in use. If the walls are white enough, it can be just a wall. Now imagine trying to sell a 100 inch big screen TV to your wife. It is absolutely huge, jet black, and takes over the room decor. This is one really good thing about a front projector. I know it made my HT possible. I have no place to put such a large screen, but the roll-up screen works great. When it's up, there is a book case, and a small screen TV behind it.


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## Anthony

Same here for me. The 55" HDTV was taking up way too much room in the HT, and I knew nothing larger would work in the room. When it was time to upgrade, the projector made it possible to go bigger without intruding more.

It even made speaker placement easier and the sound better (no more weird cavity effects off the RPTV enclosure).

Happy Sanyo Z4 owner!


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## Richard W. Haines

The only reason I got into DLP projection was because I saw it demonstrated at a film collector's house.
I thought the quality was superior to 16mm but not as good as optimum 35mm (camera negative print
or dye transfer Technicolor print) but much better than the high speed print shown in megaplexes
so I took the plunge. None of the stores near have any type of demonstration of the technology
which is one of the main problems. No one is going to purchase a DLP unless they've seen it in
operation which is especially important due to some people's problem with rainbow effect distortion.
On top of that none of the retail stores in my area have sales personnel that don't have any knowledge
of electronics. The most they can do is check you out when you pay. You have to do all of your
own research on line or with other people who know something about it like this site which is another
problem in expanding the consumer base. 



Another problem is that DLP's had a lot of bad press when they were introduced in cinemas because they didn't prove to be reliable. Heat build up in the machines when they were in constant use so they defaulted and shut down and the managers had to switch back to 35mm projection. This happened at some trade screenings of Hollywood movies. As it turns out, DLP's work great for home theaters since they aren't in use for ten hours non-stop but anyone who saw problems in cinemas might be reluctant
to invest in the format even though it's a much higher end machine that they used (professional
DLPs are in the $100,000 range).


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## Anthony

Richard W. Haines said:


> As it turns out, DLP's work great for home theaters since they aren't in use for ten hours non-stop but anyone who saw problems in cinemas might be reluctant
> to invest in the format even though it's a much higher end machine that they used (professional
> DLPs are in the $100,000 range).


While not a common occurrence, my LCD projector is sometimes on for 12 to 14 hours in a single sitting (but not every day). Sundays during football season come to mind. 

So not all home projectors are babied!


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## E-A-G-L-E-S

Bob_99 said:


> For myself, the lack of a dedicated room means several windows to deal with, plus the room doubles as a living room and in addition because of a supporting post, mounting a projector would be problematic at best. The short version, some of us aren't fortunate enough to have a suitable environment for them.
> 
> :sad:
> 
> Bob



Ahh, another victim of untruths. I own a Marantz PJ and it is my only display and is used for all viewing. Weekends I watch football all day both days. My HT is my living room as well. I have a floor to ceiling double window, front door with top pane glass, and a skylight. Then movies and a little bit of HD programming at nights. How many people do daytime viewing other than on the weekends?
Sure it looks better in the dark but is totally watchable in the daytime. Especially if I run the iris wide. 
And I've never had to take it out of Eco lamp mode.


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## E-A-G-L-E-S

wbassett said:


> As good as they can be, a projector isn't going to look like an HDTV or can be used as a TV and I think that's what some people expect. There certainly isn't anything wrong with watching cable or satellite programming on a projector, but it's not the same as a dedicated HDTV set, at least in my opinion.
> 
> Projectors are a bit softer and more film like and some people just don't like that. They want the big bright over saturated look of TV and I know some that swear projectors look horrible by comparison. It's just a difference in viewing tastes to me.



I just don't agree with that. My PJ BLOWS my best friends 720P LCD t.v(Sharp Aquos), blows it away bad.
This PJ looks 95% as good as my 1080p rptv dlp(sammy) and instead of 50" it's 110".
-JMO

This is true, if the buyer doesn't understand or appreciate a real picture and wants fake crayloa colors they would be unhappy, but not hugely. It's not like these things look like plasma with a white filter over it...
-again jmo


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## E-A-G-L-E-S

Richard W. Haines said:


> As it turns out, DLP's work great for home theaters since they aren't in use for ten hours non-stop but anyone who saw problems in cinemas might be reluctant
> to invest in the format even though it's a much higher end machine that they used (professional
> DLPs are in the $100,000 range).



Maybe they've come a long way then, as I ran my Mitsu HC1500 for 10+ hours a day forsix days straight before selling it for my current Marantz. Since then I have put 10+ hours straight on it every weekend.(both days) Haven't had one issue.

Also, if you think ahead companies like 'Mack' have a warranty for replacement lamps making them 'just as' cost effective as RPTV's. Mine was $85 for TWO lamps.


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## Richard W. Haines

I can't answer for LCD projectors. I just know that DLPs have had problems in cinemas which
is why they weren't universally installed after claims that they would replace film prints. It didn't
happen and it doesn't look it's going to happen for quite a while due to their cost and reliability
in the field. I'm not even sure that cinemas will last in the long run. There are too many
screens right now given the limited amount of product and weekly attendence is very paltry
compare the past with an occasional blockbuster exception. Most megaplexes survive solely
on concessions and commercials which is a shaky position to be in. At the very least,
some of the 37,000 screens will fold. When attendence was more than half
of the US population in the forties', there were only 20,000 screens and that seemed to be
the right number until the nineties when the megaplexes began their major expansion.



Back to the original discussion, I don't think projectors are a secret (most retail stores carry them) as opposed to the problem that they haven't figured out how to market them to consumers. Most of the demos they have in stores are for large screen monitors with a comfortable chair and surround speakers. No one has a darkened screening room to visit to see a projected image on a large screen 
to sell the concept of a home theater.


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## E-A-G-L-E-S

Yeah, it does seem the theaters are going away slowly.
But I think instead of selling the "HT", they should sell as big screen alternative to t.v.'s.
-jmo


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## Richard W. Haines

Or a big screen alternative at home rather than going to a cinema at all. I agree the "Big Screen"
concept is a good sales pitch but they have to have something impressive to show. I remember when
HD DVDs were introduced, they were showing "Apollo 13" as the demo. Bad choice. That movie was
in the sub-standard 'Super 35' format which means they shot they exposed the entire 1.33 frame
in the camera (like a TV show) then cropped the tops and bottoms off and blew it up to the anamorphic
scope 2.35 x 1 format. In short, the movie was a grainy blow up image that looked even grainier on the HD monitors they were using. The same applies to selling the 'big picture' concept of a video projector.
They need to demonstration with something like "Lawrence of Arabia" or "Star Wars" or "The Searchers"
and other movies that have excellent cinematography that is enhanced in the digital domain which
projected onto large screens.


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## E-A-G-L-E-S

Yeah, if 99.9% of your sales force has no knowledge about PJ's that right there will kill alot of possible potential customers. Because they will do things like you just described. 
I like being part of the PJ group, but would love if they got more mainstream because that would rive prices even lower even more quickly.

Now imagine going to BB or CC or the like and they had a 100"+ screen set-up even slightly properly anywhere near the t.v.'s and their prices are the same. That would be a great day - imo.


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## MatrixDweller

Richard W. Haines said:


> When attendence was more than half of the US population in the forties', there were only 20,000 screens and that seemed to be the right number until the nineties when the megaplexes began their major expansion.


Some other facts: 
- The US population has more than doubled since the 1940's (130M to 300M). 
- The average theater from the forties would have had more seats per screen than todays average. 
- TV's were pretty much useless during WWII due to little or no broadcasting, expensive cost of a set. TV didn't really pick up until the late forties. This meant more people in theaters to watch movies, news reels, etc.
- Theater attendance is directly proportional to the quality of home entertainment devices. As TVs and its programming improved through the 50's and beyond, movie theater attendance declined. 
- With every new home media invention that catches on, theater attendance declines. VHS Beta had a slow start as movies tended to take a very long time to be released on tape (years rather than months). As the video market took off the release times improved. DVDs today are released typically 6 months or less after it was released in theaters. Many people just wait for it to come out on video rather than see it in the theater. This was not really an option 25 years ago if you wanted to be up on the latest movies.
- Home theaters are the next evolution in the game. DVDs Dolby Digital and DTS made this more enjoyable, and less expensive projectors and LCD and Plasma displays bring the other facet the theaters had the advantage in (screen size).
- Theaters will close completely once it becomes more profitable to release straight to video. Theatrical releases still bring in millions and generate hype plus there is a stigma attached to the direct to video movie so theaters won't close any time soon.
- There will still be a need for high end presentations of movies. Even if theaters change as we know them today they will still be around in some form. Not everyone can afford a deluxe system. Theater technology will have to offer things not available or affordable in home theater technology.


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## Richard W. Haines

MatrixDweller,

Some responses to your additional facts:

-The US population has increased primarily after the 1965 immigration reform act which began to 
change the demographics of the country. There was modest immigration combined with rapid acculturation prior to that. Since movies were origiinally designed for mass consumption, how do you appeal to a populace that no longer has a common identity to appeal to? In the forties the concept of 'multi-culturalism' was alien (pun intended) and everyone subscribed to the melting pot theory so it was easier to make a movie that would have mainstream interest. It's more difficult today
with multi-culturalism entrenched in the media. I don't subscribe to it but Hollywood does. 

-The average number of seats in the forties was about 600 for smaller theaters and upwards of
5000 for the movie palaces with Radio City Music Hall being the largest. The usurping TV medium
began for force the closing of the palaces in the fifites and sixties, however the neighborhood
theaters that were built to replace them still had an average of 600 seats and the drive ins could
accomodate large numbers too so the 20,000 screens just shifted from the large flat tops to the
ozoners. Even in the seventies and eighties, as multi-plexes were built and drive ins folded, the
number of actual screens (regardless of how many seats were in each theater) remained the
same so it would appear that 20,000 was the right number. I have no idea why they decided to
double the number of screens in the nineties with limited attendence and product available to
show. It didn't make any sense and is probably not sustainable. 

-Since the FCC decided to regulate and control broadcasting (as an extension of radio), TV was delayed for many years as they sorted out who and when stations should be able to operate. Had it been in the private sector from the beginning (like cable), it would've been introduced earlier. Once the networks
established themselves in the early fifties with the FCC, they fought any attempts to introduce 'pay TV'. Theater owners also tried to prevent non-regulated cable television from being shown with campaigns supporting 'free TV' even though broacast television was also competition.

-You're correct that home entertainment cut into theaterical attendence in the late forties and early fifties and in the seventies and eighties. However, theaters did fight back and increase attendence
in each era by introducing spectacular new technology that you couldn't get at home. 3-D, Cinerama,
CinemaScope, VistaVision and Todd-AO did increase attendence in the fifties to a sustainable level
after it was cut in half due to the boob tube. In the seventies, 70mm and six track stereo was re-introduced with blockbusters like "Star Wars", "Close Encounters" and "Superman". However, as VHS
and cable began to reduce attendence again in the mid-eighties through the nineties, rather than trying
to introduce new formats or improve presentation, cinemas cut corners in all areas which not only did
not increase attendence but continued it on it's downward spiral. Theaters that played 70mm grossed
better than those playing 35mm of the same title but the megaplexes refused to install the equipment
in the houses which was the last place for Showmanship.

-I agree with you that theatrical exhibition is essentially 'paid advertising' for the ancillary markets
of home video and cable although perhaps that term shouldn't be used any more. The ancillary markets
are the primary markets now. They're not really trying to 'put on a show' in the megaplexes or 'wow' you
but rather to hype the product so people have heard of it and are inspired to rent or purchase it on
DVD. There's certainly a lot more effort and showmanship put into the home video release than the
quickly cranked out and disposable release prints that are struck for quick play off and destruction.

-If they can find a way of hyping the product and bypassing theatrical, they will abandon it since it's
so expensive to make prints and advertise in this venue. There probably will remain some IMAX type
of theaters or other high end places but the 37,000 megaplexes will fold like dominoes as did the
drive ins and palaces. Whereas I still miss demolished Rivoli, Cinerama and Regency cinemas
I used to attend in New York City, I certainly won't miss the megaplexes since I haven't had any
memorable (good) experiences there and a whole lot of bad experiences.


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## Anthony

Great post. 

I wonder if getting rid of the "Straight to DVD" stigma can be lifted -- and if so, if that would be the death-knell for the cinema. At least for non-blockbuster movies. I think there will always be a cinema market for teen-y movies and ultra-mega-explosion fests.

I went to home cinema for the exact reasons you mentioned: I stopped having a good time at the cineplexes. Movies I was looking forward to were ruined by other people, bad sound, or bad prints (lip sync, reel changes, lighting problems, etc). 

So far, I do not regret the move. Movies in my basement are always the right lighting, volume, and people


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## Richard W. Haines

Anthony,

Steven Seagal has been doing straight to DVD releases and surviving. A lot of indies do it too.
Perhaps some major filmmaker/distributor will try a straight to DVD release combined with a multi-media publicity campaign as a test. That means taking out newspaper ads, getting interviews on talk shows and so forth as if there's a theatrical opening but instead selling to consumers directly in retail stores.
It would be a very risky proposal but if it worked, would have a real impact on exhibition and how
movies are marketed.


One of big problems of theatrical release is it's so astronomically expensive 
to make hard copies compared to DVD copies. In the range of $1000-$1500
per print for most movies and the prints don't look good. Top quality DVDs can be mass produced for a fraction of that
cost. Newpaper ads for films are charged at a higher column inch rate than
regular ads too. If the distributor doesn't at least break even in exhibition,
he recoups out of home video, cable and foreign sales which is why many movies don't make much (if any) profit for the filmmakers. However, if you don't go
theatrical there is a stigma attached, at least for the time being and you won't
make as much potential profit as if you went theatrical. It's a high risk/high
stakes business.


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## Scuba Diver

*First, this is the impression from most people. * This is what I have heard when I was in a AV store. One man came into the projector room and said under his voice. "It looks good hear because they have the expensive screen and high end audio but if you had this at home it would not look or sound that good. The screen alone will cost you $2000".

*Second, Poor Displays Drive Away Sales*
I think places like Sam's club that sell low end projectors under full lighting have people convinced that projectors do not provide clear pictures. Especially when they sell them next to the plasma and LCD TVs. 

*Third, Everyone wants a Plasma*
Plasma has been on the mind of every consumer since they first came out. Everyone wanted one. Everyone talked about the rich guy they knew that owned a flat screen TV and hung it on the wall. Now in the reach of every consumer the plasma is the TV that will be purchased. Once everyone has one and the novelty is completely worn off then Projectors will see an amazing increase of sales. That is my opinion.


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## thewire

Scuba Diver said:


> *Third, Everyone wants a Plasma*
> Plasma has been on the mind of every consumer since they first came out. Everyone wanted one. Everyone talked about the rich guy they knew that owned a flat screen TV and hung it on the wall. Now in the reach of every consumer the plasma is the TV that will be purchased. Once everyone has one and the novelty is completely worn off then Projectors will see an amazing increase of sales. That is my opinion.


Yep and wait until the paper thin screens technology picks up more. Then that will be the new coolest thing to have despite any limitations it may have. All the store has to do is just tape it to the wall and people will go bonkers.


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## MatrixDweller

If plasma and/or LCD technology becomes less expensive and the panel size increases to over 100" then home theater projects could become extinct. Unless projectors raise the bar. Typically the advantage projectors have is picture size and price, so if that goes away why would you buy a projector.

Another downside to buying a projector for the lay person is that you need to also buy a separate sound system. HTIB are cheap but built in speakers on the display are always nice and convenient. People like my parents can't figure out how to make standard connections on the back of their TV let alone a receiver w/ speakers.


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## E-A-G-L-E-S

MatrixDweller said:


> If plasma and/or LCD technology becomes less expensive and the panel size increases to over 100" then home theater projects could become extinct. Unless projectors raise the bar. Typically the advantage projectors have is picture size and price, so if that goes away why would you buy a projector.
> 
> 
> Another downside to buying a projector for the lay person is that you need to also buy a separate sound system. HTIB are cheap but built in speakers on the display are always nice and convenient. People like my parents can't figure out how to make standard connections on the back of their TV let alone a receiver w/ speakers.



1. I think you must have not seen some good quality PJ's. My Marantz looks every bit as good or better than any LCD flat panel I've ever seen and better than alot of DLP's and plasmas in PQ.

2. If you are happy with t.v. speakers I don't know what to say. Audio is half of HD. Speakers in t.v.'s(especially flat panels) are aweful and would totally ruin a good HD experience for me.

-jmo


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## tonyvdb

Keep in mind that there are many people who still have no clue that HD TV is as good as it is. I was just in an HMV store yesterday and the sales person asked me as I was looking at the HD DVDs "do I have an HD DVD player" I said "yes" and then he proceeded to say that he gets at least two people a day that return HD or Blu-Ray DVDs that have been bought form his store saying that "they did not work" and it turns out that they only have an standard DVD player.
I have a cousin who thinks that his Samsung Upconverting DVD player *IS* HD quality and wont be getting a True HD/Blu-Ray DVD palyer. And he wont listen to me when I tell him he is wrong.
The industry is not educating people on the advantages of Projectors/Plasma/LCD/DLP displays and High Definition video. I Just have a Sanyo Z2 and I will never go to a movie theater again because I have better picture quality and sound than any theater I have been to in my opinion and others who have been over. As a matter of fact I have two friends that have now started to build there own theater rooms because of the experience they had at my house.


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## Bob_99

tonyvdb said:


> Keep in mind that there are many people who still have no clue that HD TV is as good as it is. I was just in an HMV store yesterday and the sales person asked me as I was looking at the HD DVDs "do I have an HD DVD player" I said "yes" and then he proceeded to say that he gets at least two people a day that return HD or Blu-Ray DVDs that have been bought form his store saying that "they did not work" and it turns out that they only have an standard DVD player.
> I have a cousin who thinks that his Samsung Upconverting DVD player *IS* HD quality and wont be getting a True HD/Blu-Ray DVD palyer. And he wont listen to me when I tell him he is wrong.
> The industry is not educating people on the advantages of Projectors/Plasma/LCD/DLP displays and High Definition video. I Just have a Sanyo Z2 and I will never go to a movie theater again because I have better picture quality and sound than any theater I have been to in my opinion and others who have been over. As a matter of fact I have two friends that have now started to build there own theater rooms because of the experience they had at my house.


I have always questioned how ready the general public will be when the US switches to HD in 2009. I think there may be opportunities for people who are knowledgable in HD to provide services for those who don't understand what is involved. Despite all the warnings, I think there are going to be a lot of people calling shops when they get up and find that their TVs aren't working. I also think the industry is trying but there are just too many people not paying attention.

Bob


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## MatrixDweller

Bob_99 said:


> I have always questioned how ready the general public will be when the US switches to HD in 2009.





Bob_99 said:


> Despite all the warnings, I think there are going to be a lot of people calling shops when they get up and find that their TVs aren't working.


Even if all broadcasts are done in digital after 2009 you'll be sure that the cable/satellite providers will have a converter box for those with analog TVs. Many providers are already digital so really it doesn't have much of an impact. The only people it's going to really affect is the ones that get their stations over-the-air via their antenna. I'm sure there will be plenty digital-analog converter boxes available to them when the time comes.


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## Bob_99

> I'm sure there will be plenty digital-analog converter boxes available to them when the time comes.


Yes, the converters will be available but I still think that a lot of people aren't paying attention and will not know to buy them. I may be wrong but from what I've seen of human nature, I tend to believe that a lot of people have to be hit over the head before they pay attention.

:dontknow:

Bob


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## thewire

Bob_99 said:


> Yes, the converters will be available but I still think that a lot of people aren't paying attention and will not know to buy them. I may be wrong but from what I've seen of human nature, I tend to believe that a lot of people have to be hit over the head before they pay attention.
> 
> :dontknow:
> 
> Bob


A store says that they will offer them to customers for around 40$ when everything goes digital and people need them. That should help out. Spread the word and people will understand.


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## MatrixDweller

E-A-G-L-E-S said:


> 1. I think you must have not seen some good quality PJ's. My Marantz looks every bit as good or better than any LCD flat panel I've ever seen and better than alot of DLP's and plasmas in PQ.


I didn't say the PQ on projectors was bad. It is pretty good on even modest ones. What I was implying was that if a 100" plasma, or some other technology rather than projection, was available for the same price and quality the convenience of a flat panel would win out.



E-A-G-L-E-S said:


> 2. If you are happy with t.v. speakers I don't know what to say. Audio is half of HD. Speakers in t.v.'s(especially flat panels) are aweful and would totally ruin a good HD experience for me.
> 
> -jmo


I wouldn't say that _I_ would be happy but many are happy with stereo sound coming out of their TVs. If that wasn't true then TVs wouldn't come with speakers or the speakers in the TV would be one of the main selling points.


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## E-A-G-L-E-S

MatrixDweller said:


> I didn't say the PQ on projectors was bad. It is pretty good on even modest ones. What I was implying was that if a 100" plasma, or some other technology rather than projection, was available for the same price and quality the convenience of a flat panel would win out.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say that _I_ would be happy but many are happy with stereo sound coming out of their TVs. If that wasn't true then TVs wouldn't come with speakers or the speakers in the TV would be one of the main selling points.



1. I agree completely, mistook what you were trying to say.

2. I have found that especially with the new FP's that people are finding the speakers to be horrible even compared to their CRT's circa the 90's. I have yet to meet one person who spent the money on an HDTV and was happy with the speakers. They might not have went out and bought speakers, but only if they didn't have the extra funds to spend.


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## <^..^>Smokey Joe

There are a few fundemental issues with new technologies which are obvious to some, not very clear to others and completely lost on a few.

Once there wasn't much choice, a CRT display of various sizes and projection CRT for the few. The situation was simple for the consumer, need a TV, go to store, choose one that fits the money in the wallet, walk out of the store with silly grin:bigsmile:

Now in the last few years the choice is imense, let alone the minor brand differences the types of different display technologies leave most in a state of flux with information overload.

When I first mentioned projection to my partner she thought I meant a like the old school reel to reel wobbly sound track. At that point she didn't get it.
Most people only understand projectors once they have seen one in action, set up reasonbly correctly.

Before anyone gets this far though, some hurdles need to be addressed.

The first major hurdle for the consumer, First you must ask the right questions.

The second major hurdle is, Do you know what you actually want?

The third major hurdle, the answer must fit the question being asked.

It could be argued that the response fits the seller not the consumer and here is one of the fundemental issues. 

The average person who frequents these types of forums tends towards the informed consumer and can go into a store and ask the right question, being informed that consumer also has a fair idea if the response is the correct answer.

You might think, what the is this guy on about?
Well Projection is a secret because it is easier to sell straight forward technology as LCD or plasma DTV's.

Projectors are more about the total experience of field of view and acceptence of an artificial reality than the technology itself. The technology is really a means to an ends, if it could be done easier you would do that instead.


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## BleedingStar

I know this is an old thread, and I apologize for bumping it... but on the cost issue... i paid $500 for my projector brand new, and admittedly it is an entry level... i still challenge anyone to find as awesome of a rear projected tv for $500. I personally think projectors are the CHEAPER route to go. The only downfall is daytime viewing.


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## Laserfan

BleedingStar said:


> I personally think projectors are the CHEAPER route to go. The only downfall is daytime viewing.


You resurrected this old thread, but I'm brand-new, so I'll bite: pjs HAVE gotten cheaper than standalones, but there are numerous ancillary issues associated with them that standalones don't have: screen type and size, fixed vs. electric/pulldown, throw distance/pj positioning, light blockage/traffic between pj and screen, possible keystoning, ambient light/reflections, location of sources vs. cabling to pj, etc. etc.

Most "normal" people, like my wife, just want to push one button to turn on the TV and get a picture with sound. It CAN BE almost that easy for a pj, but again you gotta spend more money e.g. remote-with-macros or HTPC-with-touchscreen ad nauseum.

My wife wouldn't even like the remote-with-single-macro-button idea, cuz she'd complain she couldn't find the right remote control! Or the right button on it! EMID! (everyone's mileage is different!)


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## Guest

A friend of mine purchased a sammy dlp tv and it looked ok for a rptv,
What I did was buy an entry level dlp 720p fp which i use on weekends which I 
use on the weekends and my projector looks so much better .


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## Blaser

This is a great thread that deserves to be a sticky. 

Just would like to mention projectors are not widespread as other display types are more versatile. They can be used with ambient light, the can be turned on and off without making calculations , no bulbs, relatively "plug and play", no installation skill required....whatever. But I honestly do not think it is a matter of picture quality. While it is true a flat panel will be much sharper and clearer than a FP setup, it often lacks the size & details that can be generated by a good FP. 
As opposed to common display types, a projector needs "attention and respect" when played, and it has its qualities and can create a special atmosphere no other display type can provide.
Getting back to the topic of that thread... For me the answer is definitely yes, projectors are unfortunately still a secret for most, but I guess this is changing slowly but surely :T


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## DougMac

I wouldn't have considered a projector if I didn't have a dedicated space to build a home theater. I don't think it's so much a secret as many realize, as we did, that the projector cost is only a fraction of the cost of going front projector. I'm going to use a HT receiver I already have, but after speaker upgrades and getting a blu-ray player, I'll be dropping an additional $2.5K in electronics. That's not chump change.

When we built our house five years ago, we planned in an area in the basement that's totally light controlled. We haven't felt we watched TV enough to shell out the money to finish out the area. I also feared if we did, we'd end up spending too much time in it just trying to justify going to the expense.

We're not typical TV watchers. We watch mostly rented movies and Turner Classic Movies, with some PBS thrown in. I think they're all perfect for the home theater, especially if TCM goes HD.

In addition, we plan to buy an LCD TV to watch standard TV fare to save on bulb expense. I understand it's pretty common.

When I was trying to decide about going with front projection, I just couldn't find a setup to demo. The first time I saw what I consider a good demo is when I temporarily set up my projector and projected on a wall primed with Kilz2. It wasn't anywhere close to a proper setup, but I was completely blown away with IQ. Can't wait to finish!

Doug


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## MatrixDweller

I had set up my projector before getting my HT done. I just projected it onto a wall to see how it would look. The wall was painted with a beige paint. Not nearly the idea surface or colour. My jaw still hit the ground when I saw the PQ from my HD-DVD player. The projector was nothing extravagent either, just an Epson 550 that only does 1080i max.

I've also tossed around the idea of getting a small TV for my HT to save bulb life, but figure that it's only $350 for a new bulb that will last for 2000-3000. 3000 hours would be 8.2 hours of use each and every day for 365 days. I'm not a couch potato so in total I probably watch at most 16 hours of TV and movies in a week but typically half that amount. So even if I split the difference and said I watched 12 hours a week that would mean I used about 600 hours of bulb life in a year. That would take me about 5 years to burn the bulb out. 

To buy a TV that would make me happy enough to watch HD cable on would probably cost as much as a new projector anyway (with a new bulb inside).


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## superchad

Instal said:


> That's kinda what I thought too. But lets say that more people did know about them and they were as prevelent as TV's are today, how would that change how you feel about being a PJ owner? I have to admit with a smidge of shame that I would miss the feeling of belonging to a community that has made a discovery that few know about. What would I do without that smug smile when someone is telling me about their new TV with the "massive" 50" screen? Then to be able to enjoy the look of dismay when you explain that you could fit four of those on your screen. Am I petty and shallow? Perhaps, but it is a guilty pleasure that I would surely miss, and I'm sure I'm not alone!


 Boy thats a bit of a shame if you ask me, any true enthusiast would champion as many as he knows to do exactly what he has done and not enjoy looking down his nose at others who have not yet or dont have the ability to do something similar. Anyone who comes over gets a pitch on how cheaply it can be doone and my offer to help as much as I can even scouting good deals on the internet. Maybe if more would try to grow awareness then the numbers would come down and we would all benefit from more affordable superior technology.


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## Blaser

Are projectors still a secret?

Yesterday, I invited 2 collegues (highly ranked engineers) from work at home. I tried my best to describe my room and equipment to them before we decided to get home. I focused on picture quality a lot. They told me they knew about LCDs, Plasmas... but letting alone cinemas, they only saw business projectors in action.

They stayed in my theater from 6 PM till midnight. They were BLOWN AWAY. But they told me they could expect everything in my theater but PQ. They told me they didn't guess a projector PQ could be that high.

They definitely discovered a secret


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## wbassett

I do think people know they are out there but I think the impression is that they are more exotic, expensive, hard to setup, and lower quality.

Projectors definitely are exotic and to many the only time they see or read anything about them is in the various Home Theater magazines, which I personally feel are sometimes a bit out of touch with the average consumer. I say that because when they do feature an HT setup, it is usually some celebrity or a high profile installation that exceeds what a person is ready to shell out.

Everyone I talk to has the impression that having a projector means a $50K project of building a dedicated room done by professional installers. So that definitely lends to the exotic perception.

What most don't see or read about is how more and more people are using projectors in multi-purpose rooms that aren't specially designed dedicated 'theaters'. 

Then there is the issue that they aren't nearly as easy to setup as an HDTV. I know of no one that comes home with a new projector and are watching it that night. No matter what the room setting, be it a dedicated HT room or a multi purpose room, a projector setup takes more planning than just buying a TV.

Next is cost. Again thanks to a lot of the print magazines people tend to only see and read about projectors that are either a brand new release or some top of the line (meaning expensive) unit. They may not be projector experts, but they do know that a screen is also required as well as mounts, cables, and time. Most people I know think it's more hassle than it's worth.

Image quality and screens- A big perception is that a projector just can't have a good image, at least nowhere near that of a stand alone HDTV. Depending on how things are setup; the screen, and the viewing conditions, that can be a very true statement. The biggest problem is that projectors do not handle daylight very well at all. They can be very surprising with even high levels of man made room lighting, but when it comes to mother nature and sunlight... well the typical setup doesn't usually live up to expectations. 

Part of this has to do with screens. Actually a good percentage of everything mentioned has to do with the screen. You can have one of the best quality and most expensive projectors made but in the wrong environment and with the wrong screen it will look bad. Not might, it will.

Screens are a whole other arena that has its own set of problems and stigma. Is a plain jane unity gain matte white screen that costs almost $2grand really better than a $500 matte white unity gain screen? The short answer is no. But it really isn't that easy. We have fixed frame screens, retractable screens, motorized screens, tab-tensioned screens... the list is almost endless. Some people simply do not want a fixed frame screen and others can't accommodate one, or in a multi-purpose room it could be a wife approval thing where she wants it out of sight when not in use. Retractable screens are relatively inexpensive, even for a good quality screen material and even an electric remote controlled one. The problem is most aren't tab-tensioned and they eventually will develop waves in the screen, which will ruin the viewing experience.

Some people turn to DIY, but even that has a stigma. At first glance DIY can often look like a bunch of nuts, and a total lack of standards throughout the online community makes it almost impossible to really get a good comfort level whether they actually work. They do, but again we come full circle to the comment that it all depends on the setting and how well everything is matched up.

I have written about this before and in reality most people are working backwards. It's not really their fault though. By backwards, let me explain- Typically a person sees a projector at a friend's house or in a store with a proper viewing room and they are blown away by the size. Big boys like big toys! Anyway, they look at the price and think 'Hmmm, that's not as much as I thought'. Some models are even a lot less than an HDTV, so visions and dreams start filling their head and they pull out the card and buy the projector. Granted that's not how everyone does it, the main point is at some time or another a person catches the projector fever but not knowing much about them, they usually buy the projector first and then think about the screen. 

That is where everything is backwards. I see a lot of people blow their entire budget on a projector without ever even thinking about a screen. Then they start to see that some screens can cost as much or more than what they spent on the projector. Worse, they may have purchased a lower lumen projector suited for a dedicated room and expect it to look good in a family room that has absolutely no light control. When this happens they usually aren't very satisfied with the experience and that's what all their friends hear. Then the perception and stigma grows and a lot of people flat out think projectors mean big image, but poor quality.

The very first thing a person needs to do is sit down and seriously evaluate what it is they want and expect. Part of this step is being totally honest about viewing habits. Will it be used during the day? At night with some, or even a fair amount of lighting on? What are the room dimensions? What is the color of the walls and ceiling and will that create a problem? Once it is determined what the range of viewing settings will be like then a screen type can be thought about. Basically that boils down to two types, gray screens or white screens. Those with lighting issues or that want to have some lights on will need at least a light gray screen. Those that want to watch during the day and can't stop all the sunlight from coming in will need a different type of screen as compared to the person that either has a dedicated setup or only watches movies at night with total light control.

From there, a person can then start looking at projectors and find one that will work well with not only the screen but also the room setting and their viewing preferences. Hence the reason I say things are usually done backwards... typically the projector comes first and the screen is an after thought.

*Then* we have to mount everything and figure out how to run the cables! Most people have no idea what all is involved with a projector, but they know it is a lot more work than taking something out of a box, plugging it in and firing it up. So with that I don't think projectors are a secret as much as I think they are viewed more like an exotic sports car. Most guys would love to have one, but think they are either too much work, or cost way too much. Well... what if I told everyone here that you can buy a Porsche that gets 32-34MPG and only spend around $4k? I'm dead serious about that, or buy a BMW for $2500... No gimmicks at all and I'm not being funny here. My point is if a person educates themselves first and then learns where to look and what to look for, projectors are not some exotic thing out of the grasp of us mere mortals.


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## wbassett

MatrixDweller said:


> I had set up my projector before getting my HT done. I just projected it onto a wall to see how it would look. The wall was painted with a beige paint. Not nearly the idea surface or colour. My jaw still hit the ground when I saw the PQ from my HD-DVD player. The projector was nothing extravagent either, just an Epson 550 that only does 1080i max.
> 
> I've also tossed around the idea of getting a small TV for my HT to save bulb life, but figure that it's only $350 for a new bulb that will last for 2000-3000. 3000 hours would be 8.2 hours of use each and every day for 365 days. I'm not a couch potato so in total I probably watch at most 16 hours of TV and movies in a week but typically half that amount. So even if I split the difference and said I watched 12 hours a week that would mean I used about 600 hours of bulb life in a year. That would take me about 5 years to burn the bulb out.
> 
> To buy a TV that would make me happy enough to watch HD cable on would probably cost as much as a new projector anyway (with a new bulb inside).


I have a multi-purpose room so we also have a 55" HDTV there for our casual viewing.

It was fun when I was shopping for the set. They guys in Best Buy knew I was going to be buying something that day and I let it slip I just got my annual bonus, so they were pointing me to the 60" plus sets and were surprised when I told them I only wanted a 55" or smaller. I explained why- so it wouldn't interfere with the projector screen, they understood but the fun part was when they started asking me questions!

Anyway, I hear what you are saying about bulb life and viewing. One thing to keep in mind is yes you can get 2000-3000 hours out of a bulb depending on the projector, bulb, and which mode you use... but you start losing image brightness fast once you hit the 50% life point. At first it's not much, just a slight drop in the 'punch', but it goes downhill from there.

You sound a lot like me as far as projector viewing habits, but some people out there treat it like a big TV and others only have a projector and the entire family uses it daily. I know of some people that went through a bulb in way less than a year. Projector bulbs also generate a lot of heat, and after a couple of bulbs all that heat can start having an effect on the optics in the projector. I agree though that with most people a bulb will last a long time, but I fully expect to have to buy a bulb for my projector long before I have to for my HDTV starts showing any signs of wear.


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## MatrixDweller

My wife's cousin came over on the weekend. He had just bought a 46" LCD HDTV for about $2500. He thought the PQ of my projector was great and asked how much I paid for it. When I said $500 for the projector and $70 in materials for the screen his jaw dropped. I think I got lucky on the projector, but even at twice the price it beat the pants off his LCD and at double the screen size to boot. 

One thing he said was that I needed a receiver and speakers though so it probably cost a lot more. I replied that a decent HTIB would probably cost no more than $800 and give way better sound than what comes out of the TV's stereo speakers. His jaw dropped again.

I couldn't agree more with you wbassett. The setup for the average user would be daunting and not every guy/gal is a DIYer. This would tend to kill the sale for most people. 

I'd also like to add that after buying the projector, cables, screen and installation by a pro the costs would approach that of LCDs and Plasmas. You'd get a bigger screen however. But just like building a fire you sit close to a small one but need to sit back far with a bonfire.


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## wbassett

MatrixDweller said:


> I couldn't agree more with you wbassett. The setup for the average user would be daunting and not every guy/gal is a DIYer. This would tend to kill the sale for most people.
> 
> I'd also like to add that after buying the projector, cables, screen and installation by a pro the costs would approach that of LCDs and Plasmas. You'd get a bigger screen however. But just like building a fire you sit close to a small one but need to sit back far with a bonfire.


I honestly think the average joe can handle a projector installation, it just takes some planning and a little bit of self education is all.

Cables... ugh! I'd say a professional installation will far exceed the cost of an LCD or Plasma. We all know were to buy cables, and I only spent $40 on my 50' HDMI cable. I know some people that spent more than that for a 6' HDMI cable! And we also know that most (can never say all) pro installers probably use the same cables at the same price we get but charge much more. Cables are a source of quick profits when it comes to installation work and often make up for 'deals' and cuts made in other areas. 

I am definitely a projector fan and depending on whether we stay in the house we have now or move, I plan on building onto this house and making a dedicated theater complete with a lobby and games!

I got my first projector back in 1989 or so, it was a tank of a crt projector. A couple years ago I got back into projectors with a refurbished Sharp I paid around $400 for, and like you said, people were blown away at how it looked. I'm up to a 720p projector now and the image just keeps getting better and better looking! It 'almost' rivals my SXRD and when you throw in the size factor (106" vs 55") there is no contest. 

Still, we use the TV for casual viewing and the projector for big epic movies and events.


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## Blaser

I also use my TV for casual watching...but since my theater was completed I am most of the time watching movies. I like the atmosphere of a dedicated HT. Casual watching rate has gone down!


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## AverageJoe

wbassett said:


> I honestly think the *average joe *can handle a projector installation...


Absolutely! Take it from the horses mouth... It was a piece of cake.:T


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## Blaser

lol


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## skloong

Yes, Projectors are still a secret from where I now reside!
Most of the people`s preception is that projectors are costly, need to replace bulb after life span,image not sharp and vibrant as compare to LCD or Plasma TV, need dark area or a dedicate room,
setup cost with cabling and mounting high.
A point in case are, in outdoor night stall serving `teh tarik` or mamak stall they call it here,there is usually projection display of analog program by the local tv or channel tv station using a data projector. Most of the display are not clear and sharp. Thus the public perception is that projectors cannot provide good quality images as compared to LCD or Plama TV.
Currently, all TV station in my country is still transmitting analog program and have yet to go digital.
When I first set up my Home Theatre in my home, there is little information I could gather from my market place with regards to setting up a home theatre projector.Most retailers will try to push the expensive high end projectors such as Runco or low end data projectors.
It is no wonder the home projectors have still a long way to go despite the improved in technology and competitive pricing as compared to LCD or Plasma TV!
Loong


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## Instal

Bob_99 said:


> For myself, the lack of a dedicated room means several windows to deal with, plus the room doubles as a living room and in addition because of a supporting post, mounting a projector would be problematic at best. The short version, some of us aren't fortunate enough to have a suitable environment for them.
> 
> :sad:
> 
> Bob


Bob, you are not alone. I too have my projector (Sanyo PLV-Z5) set up in my living room with windows and an odd space to deal with. It is ture there would be nothing I would like more than a dedicated room but go without my 106" screen because of the lack of it? Never! There are few rooms that are impossible to get a projector to work in and the result in my opinion is worth the extra effort. But I am off topic. I originally posted this question a long time ago and I don't think anything has changed. Few people know about projectors and I think they are missing out big time.


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## GregBe

I love my projector...but I think the biggest reason people won't get them, is the same reason that tv manufacturers crank up the contrast on their sets. People will buy what pops. The only exposure most people get from a projector is either in a store (no light control) or at a sports bar (again no light control). In both of these scenarios, there is most likely a few flat panels set up next to them, or in the next room. By comparison, the front projector doesn't stand a chance.


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## skloong

LCD / PLASMA TV is the IN things now in my country and most family will buy one as the prices are down with keen competition! As for Home Theatre Projectors or data projectors the knowledge about them is still very low! Most people cannot tell the difference between the usage of home theatre from a data projector! As such, the dealers selling these equipments will readily push the LCD/Plasma TV as compared with the Projectors. Set up or installation for LCD/Plasma TV is much simple than the Projector as the latter required a certain distance from the screen known as Throw distance in order to determine the projection size of the image.Thus, one need a dedicated place to project the image as compared to the LCD/Plasma TV which does not need one.
Most home in the city does not have the privilege of a spacious room, thus to use a projection system is out of question.As such, projection system is still a secret to most people as not much people are using them as compared to LCD/ Plasma TV.


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## GregBe

skloong said:


> LCD / PLASMA TV is the IN things now in my country and most family will buy one as the prices are down with keen competition! As for Home Theatre Projectors or data projectors the knowledge about them is still very low! Most people cannot tell the difference between the usage of home theatre from a data projector! As such, the dealers selling these equipments will readily push the LCD/Plasma TV as compared with the Projectors. Set up or installation for LCD/Plasma TV is much simple than the Projector as the latter required a certain distance from the screen known as Throw distance in order to determine the projection size of the image.Thus, one need a dedicated place to project the image as compared to the LCD/Plasma TV which does not need one.
> Most home in the city does not have the privilege of a spacious room, thus to use a projection system is out of question.As such, projection system is still a secret to most people as not much people are using them as compared to LCD/ Plasma TV.


Good points, but I wouldn't rule out smaller rooms. My room is only 1500 cubic feet, and I have two rows of seating


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## Instal

superchad said:


> Boy thats a bit of a shame if you ask me, any true enthusiast would champion as many as he knows to do exactly what he has done and not enjoy looking down his nose at others who have not yet or dont have the ability to do something similar. Anyone who comes over gets a pitch on how cheaply it can be doone and my offer to help as much as I can even scouting good deals on the internet. Maybe if more would try to grow awareness then the numbers would come down and we would all benefit from more affordable superior technology.


Well I have been away for a while but it's good to be "back on the shack". I agree with everything you have said Superchad. The thing is that I have tried to spread the word about pj's but to no avail. After viewing my home theater they are impressed and enjoy the experience but find one excuse after another why they would not do it themselves, even when I have valid explanations to their concerns. It makes me realise why the box stores don't sell pj's. If I can't convince a friend who is seeing it for themselves what chance do they have? Please understand that my comments were meant more as a inside joke than a philosophy. I have helped many people with their home theaters and quite enjoyed doing so.


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## the_diyr

I built one from lumen lab with a 400 wat bulb it turned out nice but not practicle because it was huge and ugly.. I have a frien of mine that bought a projector from ebay (DONT:rofl but it was one of the ones with the 60.00 bulbs and has a built in tv tuner.. It says HDMI 1080 on the box .. He paid about 400.00 for it last year and he still hasn't had to use the 2nd bulb they sent for free..I was really impressed with this thing It looks like the oxpro projector.. The only thing is the fan is a little annoying.. I would say he watches this thing about 5 hours a day.. The picture quality with the lights on isnt to bad ( Stillnot as good as my RPTV :devil But too bad for me I dont have room for a projector in my den :hissyfit I would probably not buy a cheapy if I could help it but for a 1 time family night movie I would almost enjoy to have one like his..
I used to knock cheap china knock offs until I bought a fake Honda clone motor for my steam cleaner because the real 18hp honda thru a rod .. The china motor has been going strong for 2 years now.. So I may try a china projector one day when I have somewhere to put it... :dontknow:


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## lsiberian

I thought I'd toss my two cents into this thread based on my experience. 

How did I become a projector owner? 

In october of 2008 I had been watching Blu-Rays thinking about how to get a bigger TV because I wasn't satisfied with the size of my 27" Sanyo anymore. So I started looking at TVs and even the 32" ones were far out of my budget range. 

I thought how can I possibly get a bigger picture when I don't have enough to even buy a 32" tv. Then a light bulb went off. I could get a projector. So I started researching and discovered the Optoma EP719 that was used and only cost 150. It wasn't quite HD, but it was still 1024 x768 and probably better than the CRT or the 32" TV I thought about getting. 

So I pulled the trigger. I had to rearrange my room completely to put the projector on a rear shelf. I had to use books and key-stoning to get the picture just right, but once I got it right it was a huge upgrade. The picture is way better than my old tv and the size is 80" on my current wall for widescreen. The bonus is for 4:3 material I get even bigger. It also forced my wife to allow me to move the couch away from the rear wall when I moved into her place making for better acoustics. Now I did have to replace the lamp, but still I get a way better deal than any tv in my budget. 

It wasn't hard for me to setup or time consuming, but I'm an expert with Projectors. Still if your on a tight budget I'd be happy to help you with a low cost setup that would smash the old 27" tv. I can use it with a light on in the room and during the day with a curtain on the windows.


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## lcaillo

I have to chuckle every time I see this thread title. Projectors were the beginning of the whole Home Theater business. It was the Advent VideoBeam 1000 that started the whole thing. Many of the really successful dealers use projectors in a theater setting to excite people about home theater in general. IMO, any serious dealer that does not FEATURE projectors is really missing the greatest opportunity to create an impression. Unfortunately, we have seen 35 years of manufacturers and dealers missing the point.


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## tonyvdb

lcaillo said:


> I have to chuckle every time I see this thread title. Projectors were the beginning of the whole Home Theater business.


Thats really hitting the nail on the head, In my opinion a "home theater" is not a real home theater if it does not have a projector. Once you have one it would be very hard to go back to a flat panel display.


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## Bob_99

You guys are killing me here! I just purchased the Pioneer 141FD and was convinced that I couldn't get a projector in my viewing area but after reading some of these posts, maybe I should have tried harder. Especially since my wife (as I'm in the process of getting the area ready for the new display) volunteers to take everything off the wall and move any furniture that was against the wall (essentially giving me the whole wall). Now I'm going crazy second guessing myself.


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## lsiberian

Bob_99 said:


> You guys are killing me here! I just purchased the Pioneer 141FD and was convinced that I couldn't get a projector in my viewing area but after reading some of these posts, maybe I should have tried harder. Especially since my wife (as I'm in the process of getting the area ready for the new display) volunteers to take everything off the wall and move any furniture that was against the wall (essentially giving me the whole wall). Now I'm going crazy second guessing myself.


If it makes you feel better Projectors are more work. Tape measures and good climbing skills are often required. I also service my own PJ which means I have to take it apart to fix it.


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## tonyvdb

If you watch alot of TV a projector is not a good option as the bulb life is a factor most people dont count and in the end going to cost you more.


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## lsiberian

tonyvdb said:


> If you watch alot of TV a projector is not a good option as the bulb life is a factor most people dont count and in the end going to cost you more.


Not as much of a factor these days. Most bulbs last a long time with proper care. the Epsons usually come with spare bulbs and have a life around 4 -5 k hours. I watch TV all the time on my PJ.


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## tonyvdb

I know some people have gotten 3 to 5K out of bulbs but thats not the norm 2.5k is a lot more accurate particularly if you live in a hot climate. Some people even have failure at less than 2k hours.


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## lcaillo

Lamp life varies greatly with the projector and lamp. Some of the newer projectors are claiming 4K hours or thereabouts for lamp life.


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## Bob_99

lsiberian said:


> If it makes you feel better Projectors are more work. Tape measures and good climbing skills are often required. I also service my own PJ which means I have to take it apart to fix it.


It does. Thanks.

:T

Bob


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## lcaillo

It is not like you don't have a nice system, Bob. There is nothing wrong with a panel. And keep that wife, it sounds like she is a good one.


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## skloong

Projectors Technology have improved over the years and the sad things is the consumers are still ignorant about its capabilities! Prices for a 1080P projectors have dropped dramatically and becoming affordable but yet consumers still not aware of it!
Reasons being 1) consumers knowledge about projectors is low. a point in case, can`t tell a difference between a data projector and a home theatre projector and its usage!
2)Home space such as a room is required and most home in the city is not spacious and thus projection usage for home theatre is a problem.
3) Constant commercial advertising with regards to Plasma/ LCD TV and competitive pricing have induced consumers to buy them in place of projectors.
4) Beside the big screen which the projectors can offer the Audio setup is another cost factor to consider along the projection and thus not affordable to many.
5)The ideas of bulb replacement is another factor that turn consumers off in consideration of projectors.
Based on the 5 factors, consumers are still not ready for projection and it remain a secret to them.
With the progress of special effect in films such as Transformers and 2012, it is a loss not to see it in a big screen at home eating your favourite food which normally not allowed in the cinema!


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## Instal

tonyvdb said:


> Thats really hitting the nail on the head, In my opinion a "home theater" is not a real home theater if it does not have a projector. Once you have one it would be very hard to go back to a flat panel display.


As the author of this thread I thought I should add my 2c. If the measure of how much one enjoys something is not being able to bear the thought of losing it then my projector ranks #1 amongst my non sencient posessions. I have a couple of vehicles that I am very fond of but they dont give me near the enjoyment my PJ does. Could I go back to a TV and still think I have a home theater? No way. Even after years of owning a PJ I still get a grin and chuckle when that screen comes down. There is a feeling of "event" that happens when I fire up the Z5 that I cant see happening with a TV. No matter what I am doing with it, be it movies games or just TV it raises the enjoyment level exponentially. I feel sad for those that can't look beyond the downsides of PJ ownership that have been mentioned here. IMHO they pale in comparison to the advantages. Sorry Bob back to the doubts.


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## MatrixDweller

I whole heartily agree.

My wife wanted to buy me a LCD TV for Christmas this year. Years ago, before owning my projector, I would have been as giddy as a school girl at a Hannah Montana concert. In my opinion a 50" LED LCD is a step down from what I'm used to. Comparable to driving a Kia when I'm used to a Cadillac. My wife was shocked at my apathy towards the idea of a new TV.


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## lsiberian

MatrixDweller said:


> I whole heartily agree.
> 
> My wife wanted to buy me a LCD TV for Christmas this year. Years ago, before owning my projector, I would have been as giddy as a school girl at a Hannah Montana concert. In my opinion a 50" LED LCD is a step down from what I'm used to. Comparable to driving a Kia when I'm used to a Cadillac. My wife was shocked at my apathy towards the idea of a new TV.


Yeah, I love my PJ so much that I no longer check out TV's in stores. Don't get me wrong I don't put others down for having TVs and I wouldn't want some in my family getting a PJ because it is a lot of work, but for me I enjoy it all. Even the repairs.


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## lsiberian

skloong said:


> Projectors Technology have improved over the years and the sad things is the consumers are still ignorant about its capabilities! Prices for a 1080P projectors have dropped dramatically and becoming affordable but yet consumers still not aware of it!
> Reasons being 1) consumers knowledge about projectors is low. a point in case, can`t tell a difference between a data projector and a home theatre projector and its usage!
> 2)Home space such as a room is required and most home in the city is not spacious and thus projection usage for home theatre is a problem.
> 3) Constant commercial advertising with regards to Plasma/ LCD TV and competitive pricing have induced consumers to buy them in place of projectors.
> 4) Beside the big screen which the projectors can offer the Audio setup is another cost factor to consider along the projection and thus not affordable to many.
> 5)The ideas of bulb replacement is another factor that turn consumers off in consideration of projectors.
> Based on the 5 factors, consumers are still not ready for projection and it remain a secret to them.
> With the progress of special effect in films such as Transformers and 2012, it is a loss not to see it in a big screen at home eating your favourite food which normally not allowed in the cinema!


I'd disagree that a lot of homes are too small for a projector. All you need is a white wall and light control. If you watch only at night a simple curtain could be enough. Nice thing with a projector is you can stow it away. You can't do that with a large tv. For audio all you need is a pair of good speakers and an amp. 

The simplest setup would be a pair of active monitors and a PJ use your laptop to play the movies and you got it made.


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## tonyvdb

lsiberian said:


> I'd disagree that a lot of homes are too small for a projector. All you need is a white wall and light control. If you watch only at night a simple curtain could be enough. Nice thing with a projector is you can stow it away. You can't do that with a large tv. For audio all you need is a pair of good speakers and an amp.
> 
> The simplest setup would be a pair of active monitors and a PJ use your laptop to play the movies and you got it made.


Not really true Projectors need at lest 10ft of throw distance in order to make an image large enough to be an advantage over a display.


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## Instal

MatrixDweller said:


> I whole heartily agree.
> 
> My wife wanted to buy me a LCD TV for Christmas this year. Years ago, before owning my projector, I would have been as giddy as a school girl at a Hannah Montana concert. In my opinion a 50" LED LCD is a step down from what I'm used to. Comparable to driving a Kia when I'm used to a Cadillac. My wife was shocked at my apathy towards the idea of a new TV.


If she was going to give you the green light for a new TV it might be time for that new PJ instead or some audio? Don't let that opportunity slip away they are few and far between at my house!


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## Instal

lsiberian said:


> I'd disagree that a lot of homes are too small for a projector. All you need is a white wall and light control. If you watch only at night a simple curtain could be enough. Nice thing with a projector is you can stow it away. You can't do that with a large tv. For audio all you need is a pair of good speakers and an amp.
> 
> The simplest setup would be a pair of active monitors and a PJ use your laptop to play the movies and you got it made.


I think you are correct for the most part. There are sooo many people that think they cant have a projector that actually can. This brings up a thought, I wonder how many people consider a PJ then go to their local brick and mortar and actually get convinced not to by their local know nothing sales reps? Once these people hear the down sides from a "professional" they then spread negative info thereby helpng keep PJ's a secret.


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## lsiberian

tonyvdb said:


> Not really true Projectors need at lest 10ft of throw distance in order to make an image large enough to be an advantage over a display.


That depends on the projector and your definition of an advantage. As I said you can't stow away your tv in the closet like you can your projector so in some minimalist rooms it mike actually work better. I'd also suggest a projector to apartment dwellers since they are very easy to move. TV's are not as simple.


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## tonyvdb

I see your point, but projectors dont like being bounced around and the bulb life could defiantly be shortened by constantly setting it up and putting away. I dont know of a projector that can throw an image larger than 72" at less than 10ft.


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## lsiberian

tonyvdb said:


> I see your point, but projectors dont like being bounced around and the bulb life could defiantly be shortened by constantly setting it up and putting away. I dont know of a projector that can throw an image larger than 72" at less than 10ft.


The Panasonic PT-AE4000U can throw that size at about 7 ft. The other mainstream LCD could handle this as well. 

I've not seen many apartments with a living area smaller than 10feet either. We are speaking in most terms here and the bulb will be fine as long as your careful with it. 

One could also put one of the LCD projectors on a rear shelf and use lens shift to setup the image. TVs have their advantages, but if you want a big screen projectors are a pretty good option for the technically inclined.


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## Anthony

Since we moved, I had to put my projector in a less than ideal room. It's putting up about a 60" image on a wall about 8' away. Because the image is so small, the fact I don't have light control in the room didn't matter! I can watch football on a sunday afternoon with light through the windows and it still looks great. This is a Z4 with a bulb at the end of its life (about 4k hours). I'm just putting in on the wall now (which is about to get the painted screen treatment from our other forum).

So there's no installation where a projector absolutely can't be used. You just have to be creative


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## neginfluence04

so whats the average life expediences of a DLP i use mine for gaming maybe 4 to 5 hrs per day


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## Anthony

Depends. Lumens, manufacturer, smart lamp driver (cuts actual brightness of the bulb instead of dimming panels), cooling, etc.

2000 Hrs is a good middle ground. But mine is almost double that now. Some people get well more than that. Originally I planned on replacing every 18 months. I'm a little over 3 years now (I'd have to check the receipts  ) and on the original bulb. As always, your mileage may vary.


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## Gremlin

Hi guys, saw the thread light on and couldn't help but pop in.

Here in Australia the idea of PJ's being a secret society is becoming more of an urban myth these days. With the current low pricing of PJ's and some very heavy and aggresive advertising from Home Theater centres, PJ's are gaining more acceptance by the day.

Although what has really had an impact here in Australia comes from an unlikely source, our local building industry. You only have to take a trip to any one of the many 'New Display Home' villages and you'll find just about every house has a room which doubles as a games/HT room with a PJ running. It's the Wow factor for sure but it's bringing awareness of PJ's to the forefront. People may not want the house as they are only just out there tyre kicking, but they see the PJ using a blank wall and think "I can do this" and thus another convert is born. Sure a lot of them won't understand the need for calibration etc but most average Joe's are just happy with the plug and play idea and will be happy with it.

Which begs the question, is it poor marketing from the manufactures or the distributors??? From what I've seen in here there are no shortage of converts all ready to spread the message.


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## Instal

Very interesting Gremlin. I haven't been condo shopping here in Victoria so I can't say if that is happening here or not but what a great idea for a wow factor. It seems to me that the manufacturers could do more to promote their PJ's but for some it would compete with their TV sales so I wonder if it is not persued as agressively fr that reason?


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## Gremlin

Instal said:


> Very interesting Gremlin. I haven't been condo shopping here in Victoria so I can't say if that is happening here or not but what a great idea for a wow factor. It seems to me that the manufacturers could do more to promote their PJ's but for some it would compete with their TV sales so I wonder if it is not persued as agressively fr that reason?


On a different topic Instal, have you a full HT system or are you in the process of either a] buying one or b] updating yours?


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## Instal

I guess you would say I have a full HT system. I currently have a Sanyo z5 on a 106" screen with a Harmon Kardon AVR 525 7.1 to Klipsch RB81 speakers. I was considering updating the PJ to the Panasonic 4000U but the pricing in Canada is nothing short of highway robbery so I'm undecided.


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## MatrixDweller

Instal said:


> I was considering updating the PJ to the Panasonic 4000U but the pricing in Canada is nothing short of highway robbery so I'm undecided.


I agree. There are a lot of electronics that are sold in the USA for 25-50% less than they are sold in Canada. Onkyo receivers are a major one. 

All you need to do to get around it though is take a vacation, if you do take regular vacations, in the USA for a week and then you can bring back $750 duty free per person. So $1500 between you and your wife and add more if you have kids. Go through an obscure border checkpoint and half the time they don't even care as long as it's not alcohol, tobacco or firearms.


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## Instal

Just wanted to see my only ever sticky hit 100!:R


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## MatrixDweller

Glad to see I'm good for something. :flex:


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## Instal

MatrixDweller said:


> Glad to see I'm good for something. :flex:


Thanks matrix, the weird thing is that my counter showed 99 when I made that post so I thought mine was #100 but I look at it now and yours was # 100. Im confused:huh:. Any way thanks for the info and the #100!


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## David M

In 5 pages of secret projectors, no one mentions CRT projectors. 
With them, you can vary the sizes even up to 35 feet diagonal.
One can make the color pop or be muted at will.
There are no "bulbs" to go out every 2000 hours (once a year); there are CRT's that last 15,000 hours if you're careless and over 22,000 hours if your careful. Careful in this case means just keep the overall brightness down somewhat.
Very good 8" pjcrt's are less than $1000 and can handle 1280p while very good 9"ers are about $7k and can do 1080p easily. HTH.
7" crt's are under $500 but they are mostly good for 1024x768.

New Guy


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## chadnliz

David M said:


> In 5 pages of secret projectors, no one mentions CRT projectors.
> With them, you can vary the sizes even up to 35 feet diagonal.
> One can make the color pop or be muted at will.
> There are no "bulbs" to go out every 2000 hours (once a year); there are CRT's that last 15,000 hours if you're careless and over 22,000 hours if your careful. Careful in this case means just keep the overall brightness down somewhat.
> Very good 8" pjcrt's are less than $1000 and can handle 1280p while very good 9"ers are about $7k and can do 1080p easily. HTH.
> 7" crt's are under $500 but they are mostly good for 1024x768.
> 
> New Guy


 True very true but those units can be too large for some rooms and families, they need at times the use of a profesional to service them and also sometimes you have the added expense of a doubler. The do amaze at times with outstanding image. The LCD/DLP models do an admirable job, can cost much less and are both small and easy to own. Very cool pros and cons that makes this all interesting!


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## MatrixDweller

The same went for CRT HD sets. They had contrast ratios of a million to one, a better color gamut and a very long life span. I have one myself. Unfortunately the shear weight and size of them were too much. A 30" HD CRT weighs more than 100lbs and they just didn't make them any larger than 34"-36". There were some that were slimmer, but the tradition CRT was just too bulky.


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## chadnliz

MatrixDweller said:


> The same went for CRT HD sets. They had contrast ratios of a million to one, a better color gamut and a very long life span. I have one myself. Unfortunately the shear weight and size of them were too much. A 30" HD CRT weighs more than 100lbs and they just didn't make them any larger than 34"-36". There were some that were slimmer, but the tradition CRT was just too bulky.


I have a Sony XBR WEGA 34in 1080I set and its a beast, big heavy beatiful picture making beast!
I paid nearly $3000 for it in 2003 and its still going strong and hasnt not been bested by anything I have seen to date.


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## Bob_99

chadnliz said:


> I have a Sony XBR WEGA 34in 1080I set and its a beast, big heavy beatiful picture making beast!
> I paid nearly $3000 for it in 2003 and its still going strong and hasnt not been bested by anything I have seen to date.


I believe I had the same unit (KV-34XBR910) and I found the picture outstanding, especially in 1080i. It eliminated my need to upgrade to a flat screen for the longest time. I finally gave in when I saw the 60" displays especially the Pioneer 141fd which was vanishing quickly. I also agree that CRTs are still the best in some specs.

Bob


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## MatrixDweller

Standard def content still looks good on HD CRTs too.

Another drawback though is that you can get screen burn from playing video games or viewing 4:3 content with black bars on the sides. I have yet to see that however on mine.

I still prefer my projector over the HD CRT TV. That could also be because it's 92" vs 30" and has a room built around it. I'm sure if I had a 92" CRT panel it would look better, but it would take up a whole room, need a cooling system and special footings under the foundation to hold its weight.


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## tonyvdb

CRT RPTVs are also in the same league, beautiful HD picture! Our livingroom 53" Sony has a spectacular HD picture for its age, The Olympic footage is just amazing. As long as you manually keep the convergence in tune (about once every 3 months I adjust it) It looks better than any LCD or Plasma I have seen in the stores.


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## gsmollin

If HT projectors are still a secret, then CRT HT PJ are still a riddle wrapped in an enigma hidden in a secret.


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## MikeZas

I remember how beautiful my neighbor's Sony CRT was... too bad they had to design a room around it


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## MasterCATZ

I just wish I tried Projecting onto my wall before I put holes in it to install the Projector Screen ... which hasn't been used since it was installed because the plaster wall looked better
( at lease it does not have stretch marks ) tho I do miss having the black border to stop the bleeding 

on the bright side at least this was done in my bed room ... so I knew I didn't have to put a screen up in the living room


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## chmcke01

I think they still are a secret for the majority of people. You can now get a 720p projector for under $500 and even a 720p 3D projector for just about $550. Despite this fact people still spend the same money or more on 55" 720p TVs or smaller (like 42") 1080p TVs. I have heard several people say that it would be cool to have a projector as if it was some out there goal. I only know one person who has a projector and they have only had it about a year. 

However, I think that with new cheap, HD, short throw projectors more and more people will realize they can take advantage of what projectors have to offer without needing a dedicated home theater.


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