# Suggestions for 16' x 19' Room



## John D.

I'm just now getting into HI-Definition. Last week I purchased a Vizio M550NV, and Direct TV will hook me up to HD tomorrow.
I probably will get a PS3 slim or wait on the new OPPO. I have budget of 1500.00 for Receiver and 5.1 speakers. The room
this equipment is going into is 16' X 19' with carpeting and windows on 2 sides, sliding glass on one of the two window walls,
if that makes a difference? I would appreciate any recommendations for a mid-level system in this space. My equipment profile
gives my preferences for 2 channel audio system in another room. I might consider going up a little more in price if worth while.

Thanks,
John D.


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## GranteedEV

800 for this
plus 800 for this

And don't waste money on exotic cables and interconnects!


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## Alan Brown

Such a low budget will only allow a low-level system. There are many options in equipment at that level that will perform adequately on such a budget. Good luck!


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## John D.

Alan Brown said:


> Such a low budget will only allow a low-level system.


What do you consider an adequate budget for this size room?


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## GranteedEV

John D. said:


> What do you consider an adequate budget for this size room?


While I don't think the system i posted earlier is "low level" (it's just on clearance), i will say that around 1000 budget for a sub or two, around 1000 for a receiver, and around 2000 for 5.0 speakers is more likely to get you an excellent HT. 

I still don't think the system I listed will dissapoint you though.


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## Alan Brown

There are too many complex unknown variables for each person for someone else to say definitively without an extensive interview and site inspection. It's naive to think there are pat answers without these preliminary requirements. Buyer's remorse is frequently the result of hasty recommendations. The more you spend, the better the performance and features will be. I encourage my clients to decide how much of their financial resources they consider worthwhile to dedicate to their home entertainment life style. Zero in on that first, then go shopping or seek further advice from professional system designers experienced in tailoring equipment to the user's unique set of requirements. Keep in mind that the audio portion of motion pictures comprises 50% or more of the emotional experience.


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## eugovector

$1500 is an excellent pricepoint for an entry level system. Of course, if you can spend a little more, you can get more bang for more bucks. However, the following:



> The more you spend, the better the performance and features will be.


...is not universally true; you still have to buy value. $1500 in emp/marantz will trump $3000 in Bose.


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## Alan Brown

There are always exceptions to general rules of thumb. Cinema sound has very dynamic requirements to reproduce correctly. Most consumers don't take into account those requirements. As those dynamics are compressed and/or distorted, so will be the emotional impact of the motion picture experience.


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## GranteedEV

Alan Brown said:


> There are always exceptions to general rules of thumb. Cinema sound has very dynamic requirements to reproduce correctly. Most consumers don't take into account those requirements. As those dynamics are compressed and/or distorted, so will be the emotional impact of the motion picture experience.


The F300 tower I posted is virtually identical to the RBH TK-5CT with only ever-so-subtle sonic differences resulting from different driver material (but still optimized for performance). Those things retailed for 950 a pair in brick and mortar establishments, and even the internet direct version still retails for 800 dollars. The only reason that you can get the whole 5.1 set is because they've been clearing out the line (hence why they only have the rosewood veneer)

Maybe they won't do a full reference level with perfect dynamics, I won't make the assumption they will. But they won't sound poor at all or take away from the cinematic experience. I mean i'd love to have some truly amazing dynamic speakers, like JTR Triple 8s (3000 a pair, never mind ), Seaton Catalysts (7000 a pair IIRC), RBH T-30LSE (15000 a pair), etc powered by some XPA-1s or ATI or denon separates amps but realistically speaking, speakers are a law of diminishing returns and 1500 for a set if you shop properly / settle for aesthetic mediocrities (IE rosewood veneer on the EMPs, cosmetic scratches on the refurb marantz), while still a bit low, is still a lot better than what the average person will end up with as they go into best buy with more money than that. Speaking of those JTRs, they basically prove that you can't make a raw correlation between dynamics and price - the threads over on avs basically show them being far more dynamic than some absolutely high end Revel Ultima Studio speakers - speakers that cost 5 digits! I don't know if I would personally drop 9000 dollars on a 5.0 set of speakers just so the blasts in open range sound amazing. I do know that i wouldn't switch from my ~2000 dollar 7.0 set of speakers (not including a sub or receiver mind you) to anything less expesive than saidg JTRs for HT (Although for music listening, a pair of salk songtowers might be nice)... as the difference isn't that big. Then again, my personal towers handle dynamics better than more expensive speakers.

Reference level ain't everything either - most of us listen at quiet levels and "turn it up" to around 6 db below reference level anyways which can open up dynamics/headroom. Some people on this board with impressive systems have said they'd still be happy with some behringer 2030ps and a dayton 120 - which I don't think is as good as the system I listed - and is still a very good system. 

But yes, if the OP wants to multiply his budget two- or five-or- ten-fold, I can definitely help him choose a much more incredible setup. And if he wants to multiply it 50-fold, we can even throw in some Thigpen rotaries crossed with quad tapped horn subs, 40000 speakers, professional acoustic treatments, acoustically transparent screens, etc. And after that, all of us with "mere" 5000 dollar speaker systems would be left jealous at our lack of dynamics, lack of precision, less enveloping soundstages, less precise imaging, imperfect signal to noise ratios, etc. 

There's different tiers, and there's great and awful choices in each and every one of them. I agree his budget is a bit on the low side, but that doesn't mean he'd be getting into something unimpressive. It's still a bigger budget than the average person who thinks 450 dollar HTIBs are too expensive for "some cheap sound effects". It's a nice enough budget to get started into true home theater before dreams about aformentioned thigpens become a reality.


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## callas01

John D. said:


> I'm just now getting into HI-Definition. Last week I purchased a Vizio M550NV, and Direct TV will hook me up to HD tomorrow.
> I probably will get a PS3 slim or wait on the new OPPO. I have budget of 1500.00 for Receiver and 5.1 speakers. The room
> this equipment is going into is 16' X 19' with carpeting and windows on 2 sides, sliding glass on one of the two window walls,
> if that makes a difference? I would appreciate any recommendations for a mid-level system in this space. My equipment profile
> gives my preferences for 2 channel audio system in another room. I might consider going up a little more in price if worth while.
> 
> Thanks,
> John D.


Id sell you my Energy speakers, 5.0 for $500, then you could swing into Hsu Research in Anaheim and get a VTF-2 MKIII sub for $550, for a receiver I would suggest you look at www.accessories4less.com and get yourself either a Marantz 6003 or an Onkyo 707/708. That would be a killer way to get into HT and be well inside your budget. I would be willing to let you come buy and audition also.


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## bambino

GranteedEV said:


> Then again, my personal towers handle dynamics better than more expensive speakers.
> 
> There's different tiers, and there's great and awful choices in each and every one of them.


Your personal towers handling dynamics better then more expensive speakers would be your opinion not fact and yes there are several different tiers of brands, price, quality, etc but it is also a matter of personal taste:T
What sounds good to one person may sound aweful to another.


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## Dale Rasco

If I understand you correctly, you are looking for a system that includes speakers and receiver for $1500 that will work in a 16X19 room. I would suggest going with a more expensive receiver and get a set of speakers that can be replaced as you start to figure out what you want your system to do. The reason I say this is because the learning curve on a managing a receiver takes more time than it does on learning how to plug in speakers. In one 18 month period I went through 4 receivers and 3 sets of speakers because I started on the low end of everything, and I didn’t know about Home Theater Shack yet. Once I finally got a receiver that could produce the sounds I liked at the volume I like, I could focus on speakers and subs. Since I was still green at the HD stuff I went through a Sony, a Yamaha, a Denon and finally my Pioneer SC-05, but that meant I had to learn how to operate all four receivers and each one had its own interface, and issues.

If I absolutely only had $1500 to spend, I would go with this:
Onkyo TX-SR707 for a receiver paired with an SVS 5.0 SBS-02 surround system and an Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Compact. However, if you can find an extra $250 in your budget, I highly recommend stepping up to the Onkyo TX-NR-808.

I hope this helps.


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## Andre

Hello John,

Your in a higher population area, have you looked at private sale used equipment? Everyone is different you could be sat down in front of a set of the JTRs above and find you hate them and prefer the sound of 20 year old KLH's you never know. 

Spend some time and go out and listen to different brands even the very expensive ones so that you have a wide base. Bring your own movie/music that you have listen too a few times and listen to the same chapter/song for each system. Yes, the room the speakers are displayed in will make a difference take that into consideration when your taking your notes. 

Its all part of the hobby. Once you have done your auditioning here is a great place to get opinions on items you may be on the fence about. i.e. you could have fell in love with the Revels but can't afford them, knowing what came in 2nd, 3rd as your favorites would alow the fine people here at the shack some ammo to ponder what could possibly satisfy you within your budget. Could be a DIY build would be recommended which you may or may not have thought of.


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## GranteedEV

bambino said:


> What sounds good to one person may sound aweful to another.


Well that part is more or less a matter of speaker philosophy. I'm of the opinion that if a speaker is good at its function, it's a good speaker. I think there's a lot of good speakers out there - and neutrality is a common trait among them, even if they all have their subtle differences. Neutrality may not impress some people, but in my opinion, a speaker _shouldn't_ do the impressing, the source material should, and the speaker's function is to present that source material as it was intended. There's MOST certainly a search for the "speaker that accentuates the best parts of a song" but this shouldn't be confused with a search for a "good" speaker.

The best example of this is John Salk's own "propaganda" for the flagship $13,000 tower:



Salk Sound said:


> When we set out to design the SoundScapes, our goal was to produce an extremely neutral speaker that imparts no sonic signature of its own. It simply passes on the signal it is fed - nothing more, nothing less. In that regard, it has no particular sound of its own. All you hear is the music.
> 
> In short, the SoundScapes do nothing special...and that is the most special performance attribute of all


Whether or not that's the "best speaker" someone will ever hear, you can just look at measurements and design goals and know that's a good speaker. On the other hand, there's also speakers out there in every price range that can "sound good" to one and poor to another because they _don't_ strive for neutrality. This is where subjectivity is more significant. I do enjoy some speakers in this respect mind you. It can get fun to "listen to the speaker". Those aren't what I would ever _recommend_ though... i would always recommend speakers that are neutral as possible in their price range because that is the _primary function_ of a speaker. An accurate speaker is _always_ a good speaker. An inaccurate speaker can be an enjoyable speaker too, but it's inaccurate speakers that become "love it or hate it". An accurate speaker should be a second thought after the source material. It's certainly possible for a speaker to be _more_ accurate than another but you can go as cheap as a Behringer 2030p for "accurate enough to do most source material justice". The issue is that the majority of sub 1000 dollar towers, and sub 600 dollar bookshelves don't strive for accuracy at all... that is why one person's "great sounding speaker (ie a satellite with am 10db a lower treble bump, and 7 db upper midbass bump, generally missing anything above 10khz) can be another person's "no highs no lows just bose"... simply because accentuating certain frequencies impess some people. 

In my opinion if any neutral speaker is too "boring"... it's because someone is listening to boring source material, plain and simple, as dissapointing as that may sound.

Now re: dynamics. This is pretty cut and dry; it's essentially a function of low volume detail and power compression (which my speakers do very well, never mind price range). I'm sure there are measurements that can show a speaker having superior dynamics to another... how can you say that's just an opinion? Compression most certainly is a measureable artifact, and rolled off treble is easy enough to measure as well.


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## callas01

GEV, I have had people tell me my Dynaudio Excites are "boring". I think some people like warm or bright sounds, because that is what they expect a certian song or speaker to sound like. Or what catches their attention. The Excites are extremely neutral. I had someone say, you don't even hear them... and he didn't like that, I love that, they get out of their way and just let the music or movie play. I have heard them on T+A and Ocatve gear, I have heard them on Integra, Denon, Marantz, they always sound dynamic, but they don't add to the sound the way a B&W or Paradigm speaker does. Some people want to hear the speakers impression.

Like most Dynaudios, they are just there, they offer what is given to them, like Salk said,... however not everyone will like that.


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## Andre

One mans bliss is anothers blight, go further and listen to the sound of one hand claping on paper, plastic and metal. Once you recite the words of power (such as dark, boomy, neutral, bright, smooth, bloated, rich, full, round, linear, boxy and nasal to name a few) and aligned them to the what you hear you can acheive understanding, or total confusion if your like me. I like the cave man approach.

Grog listen, to bunch of rocks, grog finds one like best, Grog take that rock.


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## GranteedEV

callas01 said:


> Like most Dynaudios, they are just there, they offer what is given to them, like Salk said,... however not everyone will like that.


I think what people are refering to as ``boring`` isn`t the speaker - it`s the reality of the music being presented through it. Imagine if you walked into someone's house and turned their TV on and everyone's skin had a green tint to you. your first reaction would be to point out that fundamental flaw... not to say "i wish everyone's face were green in real life... that would be cool!" OTOH you change the channel and the skin tones remain the same, and the person next to you tells you "this really makes things look better, doesn't it"... wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the TV. You don't walk around with green tined shades on... do you? So why tint our music and movies? The only difference is, we're less familiar with the sound of instruments and specific voices than we are with things like the color of grass or the tone of skin. Do you want your TV to "pop" or do you want it to give you the picture close to what the director envisioned? So why wouldn't you do the same with your speakers? Just because people aren't _truly familiar_ with the music they love?

Now if people don't like the idea of hearing the music instead of the speaker, you will continue to get boom-and-sizzle type speakers in the under-1000 price range, which will continue to fuel the love-hate opinion of speaker brands, and continue to push the perception that you can't have a quality speaker under a certain price range, and continue the lazy sound engineering work done by "professionals" who feel a disconnect from the end user.

As a home theater forum, most of the people i'd assume care about accuracy. Accuracy ain't always pleasing, but it's always accurate, which means if something is designed to be pleasing, it will be nature be pleasing.



> One mans bliss is anothers blight, go further and listen to the sound of one hand claping on paper, plastic and metal. Once you recite the words of power (such as dark, boomy, neutral, bright, smooth, bloated, rich, full, round, linear, boxy and nasal to name a few) and aligned them to the what you hear you can acheive understanding, or total confusion if your like me. I like the cave man approach.


I hate to reiterate the same thing, as I`m not trying to argue with anyone, but another way to describe most of those descriptives is `distortion` of some sort. There`s plenty of speakers in every price range which have relatively little enough distortion that they present the original material. 



> Grog listen, to bunch of rocks, grog finds one like best, Grog take that rock.


You're free to feel that way... Personally, I feel that a speaker at its most basic is a tool... like a mirror. Circus mirrors with all their bends and twists have their novelty and can be fun, but i'm not going to use them to do my hair. And if i wasn't so familiar with what a regular mirror was doing, i can imagine myself looking at my reflection in a circus mirror and assuming that's myself. Our lack of familiarity with the sounds we hear through a speaker (and I won't claim to truly even know what true neutrality sounds like either...) leads us to think "wrongly" about the very material we hear through it.


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## Andre

I added "neutal" in with the rest for a reason. Who is to say what neutal is? Well the speaker adds nothing to the source. Well what if the source added something, or its a bad recording. Wait how do we know it was a bad recording? How do we know it was a good recording? Did it sound better in the studio or live? The CD is dirty, you forgot to use your green highlighter....etc How do you know if you have acheived the sound the director envisioned? Did he envision the sound in the studio? In a screening room? Then you would have to duplicate that environment, oh and his ears. Or he can come to your house with a rack of EQs and adjust it. Oh wait that is just one director, then next movie might need more tweeking.

You purchase for your enjoyment (and perhaps your immediate family). Listen find what you like and be happy.

Did you parents go out and audition many different speaker manufactures of comparible size cabinets? Or, did they like my first system (I won't say my parents as we wold be going back before stereo) buy the same speakers as the rest of the equipment.

I also happen to remember some Sony speakers with square drivers from the early 80s late 70s that for the time sounded fantastic and were stupid expensive.


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## GranteedEV

> Well the speaker adds nothing to the source. Well what if the source added something, or its a bad recording. Wait how do we know it was a bad recording? How do we know it was a good recording? Did it sound better in the studio or live?


-It's a good recording or a bad recording? At least you're hearing it the way they thought was appropriate. If they're going to sell you garbage, you shouldn't need a pair of speakers to dress it up in chocolate and whipped cream. Should you really be paying for a song that in reality wasn't ever all that good, just because it sounded pretty fun on some bad speakers?



> How do you know if you have acheived the sound the director envisioned? Did he envision the sound in the studio? In a screening room?


S/he envisioned it as he must have heard it, through the types of +/- 0.5db reference monitors used in studios. Or how S/he heard it as it was performed live, which in turn is recorded by very expensive microphones and mixed extensively. If it sounds good through those types of monitors, then that means the performance was good enough to be reproduced on our humble systems. 



> Then you would have to duplicate that environment, oh and his ears.


Funny, this is a home theater forum that has a lot of people who have done room treatments well enough to make the interaction of a system not cascade with its environment. We're not talking about 100% reproduction or anechoic chambers. We're just talking about dead enough rooms that high frequencies don't bounce all over the place and low frequencies likewise. You know.. flat frequency response? To take that further - why do you think modern receivers have auto-EQ? As a novelty feature?



> Or he can come to your house with a rack of EQs and adjust it.
> 
> Oh wait that is just one director, then next movie might need more tweeking.


Um, that's not true at all. Conformity standards do exist for a reason, and they are exactly why it's possible for us to heard it without strong coloration. Small differences do exist between all speakers that still lead to all those adjectives you were throwing around. With measurements plenty of people are able to get their systems to +/- 3 db type response curves... where colorations are minor enough that they don't perceivably affect alter the original intension.



> You purchase for your enjoyment (and perhaps your immediate family). Listen find what you like and be happy.


Until you find what you enjoy is preventing you from enjoying something else because it's not designed with a different type of music or movie in mind?



> Did you parents go out and audition many different speaker manufactures of comparible size cabinets? Or, did they like my first system (I won't say my parents as we wold be going back before stereo) buy the same speakers as the rest of the equipment.


Actually, they bought based on what a 7 year old version of myself and an 11 year old version of my sister thought "sounded best" and probably begged for. They did end up buying the "matching" electronics set because sony had/has a rep for electronics, but it wasn't the equivalent of a modern "HTIB" type of deal. That was back in the day of stereo! Where having a CD player meant you were HI FI compared to a tape deck! (ironically enough... it probably means that today with the Mp3s...)


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## Andre

"Until you find what you enjoy is preventing you from enjoying something else because it's not designed with a different type of music or movie in mind?"

And how do you find that out precisely?


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## GranteedEV

Andre said:


> "Until you find what you enjoy is preventing you from enjoying something else because it's not designed with a different type of music or movie in mind?"
> 
> And how do you find that out precisely?


Technically, you probably don't. You're more likely to become bitter and old still listening to your precious tube amps paired with horn speakers, 1970s vinyls; and absolutely loathing music that doesn't play well on your system thinking it's the music's fault, when really your system is the one ruining what could be a great experience for you. And you think movies are "just made so that you can't hear what they're saying...hmph.." And then you sit down in your grandkids' car and hear barry white's "soprano" voice as they've got treble +25 or something and you are just confused at how all but your own speakers sound abysmal to you.


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## Andre

I believe we are butting heads. Must be a Calgary/Edmonton thing...

IF I had my 70s horns and played a movie with them and thought to myself…EWWWW that sounds horrid. I would not bury my head in the sand and blame something else.

HOWEVER, if I had a home theatre that I enjoyed and found the sound pleasing and someone else were to tell me it sounded horrid and I must do this that and the other thing to improve it. I would say PROVE it to My ears, if they can’t then whatever adjective they used to describe my systems is Their opinion and doesn’t matter in the least.


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## GranteedEV

:boxer::boxer::boxer::boxer: nah, I have nothing against deadmontonions.. y'all are our neighbors! :boxer::boxer::boxer::boxer:



Andre said:


> HOWEVER, if I had a home theatre that I enjoyed and found the sound pleasing and someone else were to tell me it sounded horrid and I must do this that and the other thing to improve it. I would say PROVE it to My ears, if they can’t then whatever adjective they used to describe my systems is Their opinion and doesn’t matter in the least.


Which brings us right back to the whole idea of unfamiliarity with real instruments and voices! 

It's easy to prove.

For example, you can be shown what an acoustic guitar sounds in your room like by playing the same guitar notes in front of you, and then comparing it with a _poorly reproduced_ recording of the same notes being played on the same kind of guitar. If it sounds totally off, do you tell yourself that you like the sound of your speakers better than the sound of that very thing which your speakers are trying to reproduce? Doesn't that show the potential for those speakers to negatively impact your perception of the effort and talent that may have gone into a song or a movie soundtrack? 

Things like instrument timbre, bass tightness, treble smoothness... they're definitely a lot harder to describe and comprehend than they are to experience. I'm actually convinced that even the worlds greatest loudspeaker still can't truly reproduce a *live, unamplified performance*. Whatever gets "close enough" that there's no inherent flaws is what I consider "good". My dream speaker probably isn't another person's dream speaker, but i know that if it is in fact "accurate" and the other person's dream speaker is also "accurate", the music can be enjoyed; yet the preferences of speaker may still be preserved. On the other hand, if the other person's dream speaker is inaccurate, their perception as a result changes, as does mine. 



> IF I had my 70s horns and played a movie with them and thought to myself…EWWWW that sounds horrid. I would not bury my head in the sand and blame something else.


That may have been hyperbole for hyperbole's sake, but would you not agree that you have at least some level of "belief" that what your speakers show you is truly reality? Your speakers are a tool capable of altering your perception, from "that girl's voice sure is annoying" (when it may not be at all in real life to your own ears!) to omitting/softening details like wind blowing during an emotional scene or making the dramatic flair of a pair of drums seem sound like a a door being banged on a couple times! That changes perception compared to intention.

More importantly, doesn't it intrigue you to get closer to the truth of things? Or are you complacent? That may be where occur differences lie... because my engineering background and mentality always has me curious about things.


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## Alan Brown

Andre said:


> One mans bliss is anothers blight, go further and listen to the sound of one hand claping on paper, plastic and metal. Once you recite the words of power (such as dark, boomy, neutral, bright, smooth, bloated, rich, full, round, linear, boxy and nasal to name a few) and aligned them to the what you hear you can acheive understanding, or total confusion if your like me. *I like the cave man approach*.
> 
> Grog listen, to bunch of rocks, grog finds one like best, Grog take that rock.


Thank you, Andre! The clarity is genuinely refreshing. There is certainly plenty of room for your type of thinking on this forum. There really isn't much use in arguing your kind of position versus those of us who value the pursuit of artist intent over subjective audience preference. Either philosophy is valid for the individual. It can be helpful to determine which camp a questioner happens to be inclined toward before making a recommendation. 

Many consumers don't even acknowledge that it's valuable and/or possible to achieve a substantial measure of authenticity in electronic reproduction of images and sound. They are like you, being happy to just grope, feel, and guess their way through much of life. We all have those interests that we approach superficially and intuitively. One of mine is wine. I like it, but don't bother studying it. Grog drink, not spend too much, depend on mate to pick what go good with mastodon steak.

I'm not happy with my home theater gear unless I can be assured that it will allow me to experience what the artist intended for his audience, with as little distortion, alteration, diminishment, or omission as possible. Yes, that includes controlling environmental conditions as well. But, this is one interest in which I invest a lot more care and intellect. It's also why I chose this field as my profession- there appears to be a shortage of home theater services providers with this philosophy.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"


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## callas01

GranteedEV said:


> I think what people are refering to as ``boring`` isn`t the speaker - it`s the reality of the music being presented through it.
> 
> Now if people don't like the idea of hearing the music instead of the speaker, you will continue to get boom-and-sizzle type speakers in the under-1000 price range, which will continue to fuel the love-hate opinion of speaker brands, and continue to push the perception that you can't have a quality speaker under a certain price range, and continue the lazy sound engineering work done by "professionals" who feel a disconnect from the end user.
> 
> As a home theater forum, most of the people i'd assume care about accuracy. Accuracy ain't always pleasing, but it's always accurate, which means if something is designed to be pleasing, it will be nature be pleasing.
> 
> Our lack of familiarity with the sounds we hear through a speaker (and I won't claim to truly even know what true neutrality sounds like either...) leads us to think "wrongly" about the very material we hear through it.


I played the trumpet and drums, but each instrument has its own flare, and its impossible to know exactly what that flare truly is. I think good speakers and good components get us a close as possible, but you never can get the full truth given we are dealing with electronics. And as you said, is the recording good or bad? Sure there are some good ones out there, but a live trumpet and a recorded one, do not sound the same.... I used to have to record my trumpet playing and listen to it.

Accuracy isn't always accurate, your right, and speakers or gear that tell us that is the best we can get. Listening to Incubis thru my Energys, the singer sounds fine, thru the dyns, you can hear the untrained voice and inflections in his singing and how terrible the recording is. 

Im definetly not rich, and yes, my speaker purchases are close to the $1k mark, I bought Dyn X16s because they gave me what many other speaker try to at $2k+. However I like having as little influence from the speakers as possible.


GranteedEV said:


> Which brings us right back to the whole idea of unfamiliarity with real instruments and voices!
> 
> For example, you can be shown what an acoustic guitar sounds in your room like by playing the same guitar notes in front of you, and then comparing it with a _poorly reproduced_ recording of the same notes being played on the same kind of guitar. If it sounds totally off, do you tell yourself that you like the sound of your speakers better than the sound of that very thing which your speakers are trying to reproduce? Doesn't that show the potential for those speakers to negatively impact your perception of the effort and talent that may have gone into a song or a movie soundtrack?
> 
> Things like instrument timbre, bass tightness, treble smoothness... they're definitely a lot harder to describe and comprehend than they are to experience. I'm actually convinced that even the worlds greatest loudspeaker still can't truly reproduce a *live, unamplified performance*. Whatever gets "close enough" that there's no inherent flaws is what I consider "good". *My dream speaker probably isn't another person's dream speaker, but i know that if it is in fact "accurate" and the other person's dream speaker is also "accurate", the music can be enjoyed; yet the preferences of speaker may still be preserved.* On the other hand, if the other person's dream speaker is inaccurate, their perception as a result changes, as does mine.
> 
> 
> 
> That may have been hyperbole for hyperbole's sake, but would you not agree that you have at least some level of "belief" that what your speakers show you is truly reality? Your speakers are a tool capable of altering your perception, from "that girl's voice sure is annoying" (when it may not be at all in real life to your own ears!) to omitting/softening details like wind blowing during an emotional scene or making the dramatic flair of a pair of drums seem sound like a a door being banged on a couple times! That changes perception compared to intention.
> 
> More importantly, doesn't it intrigue you to get closer to the truth of things? Or are you complacent? That may be where occur differences lie... because my engineering background and mentality always has me curious about things.


I agree with the bolded statement.


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## Andre

Oh well, I guess its just me..

I will listen to speaker A and B figure out which I like best then listen to C as compare the the favorite of A and B. Now the person that knows the sound that is closest to the was intended sayes "C your favorite?" "Yup I think those sound the best to my ears". "Ok, come and listen to these""WOW those sound great""Super, are you will to spend another $100""SURE, wrap'em up". 

On the other hand "Super are you willing to spend another $2k""Ah...no"...."OK then, in that case you have gotten as close to what was intended as possible, come back when you win the lottery".

Let say you have done all your auditioning and found a set of speakers you really like the sound of (they even cost you a bit more). And you decided to research them online and all the reviews tell you that they are horrid (right up to the hardcore elite stereophiles) and they all recommend this other speaker instead. So you go out and listen to it and can't stand it, do you:

A. Believe everyone else and their graphs, readings, waterfalls, figure your hearing is ascew and you will learn to enjoy them or,

B. Buy the speakers you like.

IF you choose A you will eventually get used to that speakers sound, If you went back and listened to the other set at that time you would still hear a difference. Would you change your mind as to which is better? Maybe, Maybe not.


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## GranteedEV

When you're at a hi fi shop, you're listening to speakers. 
When you're at home, you're using speakers to listen to movies and music.

There's a big difference. Human nature is such that even a 1-2 db tweeter level boost is enough that it would instantly alter our preference - i'd wager based on my auditions, that paradigm is guilty of this - there's an instant wow factor. The question however isn't which speaker impresses me with how it's designed to impress me. It's which speaker presents me with the goods. So yes - i would, and have in the past - chosen the speaker with the better FR graphs, the better perception as neutral, the more neutral design concept, however you want to word it. 

It sounds silly when you word it like "choosing something someone else likes over something you yourself like". But it's NOT about "like" - it's about function. I'd "like" to have mcdonalds every day because of how good that big mac tastes. But you gotta eat your vegetables too. Likewise, the speakers themselves aren't the indulgence, it's their ability to bring to us the movies and music. Transparency gives them a better ability to do this. 

The issue is that a speaker doesn't produce something - it reproduces. That is the key. I don't want a hard cover copy of a book if it's missing a chapter, even if i "like" it better than a soft cover copy. I don't want a 2D to 3D converter on my TV, even if I "like it". I don't want a calculator that calculates wrong, even if it's got a color screen. I don't want an education historic documentary to be replaced with the Quentin Tarantino version. Okay that last one's true.

So... I feel like we're just going around in circles so let's leave it here. Cheers.


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## Alan Brown

"It's all about the art." Joe Kane


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## callas01

I think people should get whatever they like the best... with dynaudio, people may not like that they are so revealing of the truth of what they are listening to. Others may like the way a speaker makes their music sound. Some may like that a speaker is Bright, one may like that there is tons of Bass.

There is no right or wrong in speaker selection... hey if a $3000 Bose system is what sounds best to you over a $3000 pair of Amphion Prio 520s, then by all means by the Bose system.

I think you are taking it a little personal... and there is no reason to.


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## taoggniklat

GranteedEV said:


> *snip*
> 
> The best example of this is John Salk's own "propaganda" for the flagship $13,000 tower:
> 
> 
> *snip*


Btw, it is Jim Salk. 

I will admit, I was impressed with the Soundscape 12's. Too bad I don't have $12k for them. :spend:


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## GranteedEV

taoggniklat said:


> *Btw, it is Jim Salk.
> *
> I will admit, I was impressed with the Soundscape 12's. Too bad I don't have $12k for them. :spend:


DOH! And yeah, if i _even_ had a pair o HT2-TLs I think I'd be happy for the rest of my life(okay not completely lol). Check out that Red Gum veneer... gorgeous!


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## John D.

Original poster here,

After reconsidering my budget for speakers and receiver, I have decided to raise it to $3,000.00-3,500.00 
Has anyone heard these new Definitive Technology BP8040 Super Towers? I have a pair of the original BP20's in my 2 channel system, and still like them a lot. I'm still trying to decide on a set of home theater set of speakers for my den. They will be hooked up to a new 55 inch Vizio and an OPPO BDP-93 Blue-Ray player. I'm considering an Onkyo TX-NR808 or Denon AVR-1911 receiver. I eventually will fill in the center channel and rear speakers. For right now, I'm starting out with the LR Speakers and Receiver. I've looked high and low for reviews on these speakers, and can't seem to find a one.


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## eugovector

I'm not a huge fan of Def Techs. They're great for expanding the soundstage of a stereo setup, but I prefer monopoles for my fronts in a home theater environment. But, if you like them, you should stick with them. I might just audition a few monopoles. 

Will you be getting a separate sub?


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## John D.

eugovector said:


> I'm not a huge fan of Def Techs. They're great for expanding the soundstage of a stereo setup, but I prefer monopoles for my fronts in a home theater environment. But, if you like them, you should stick with them. I might just audition a few monopoles.
> 
> Will you be getting a separate sub?


Part of the reason I was considering these BP8040 Super Towers is because they have a sub in each speaker.

http://www.definitivetech.com/Produ...h=Floor-Standing Speakers&productid=BP-8040ST


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## John D.

John D. said:


> Part of the reason I was considering these BP8040 Super Towers is because they have a sub in each speaker.
> 
> http://www.definitivetech.com/Produ...h=Floor-Standing Speakers&productid=BP-8040ST


What do you guys think of these speakers w/ subs in each unit? They make a pretty convincing case of all the speakers in each unit being matched and balanced.


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## GranteedEV

John D. said:


> What do you guys think of these speakers w/ subs in each unit? They make a pretty convincing case of all the speakers in each unit being matched and balanced.


While I love the idea of true active 3-way speakers, I'm not a fan of "built-in sub speakers". I'd rather get an easy to drive passive 3 way and pair it with a sub. Personally I feel tower only needs to extend down to ~60hz and have the smooth rolloff of a sealed box or transmission line below that, and crossovers should be designed with output in mind (350hz and ~3800hz are imo good XO points in a 3 way tower). In a sense the Def Techs do some things right but the execution is just missing something.

Granted, finding a speaker that will fit what I just suggested above is simply not all that easy. The closest thing I can think of is probably the Salk V3 at $4000/pr and even then I don't for sure know its crossover frequencies.

Well I guess there's the Revel F12 at around $1000 a pair. It's a ported box but besides that I think it would blend perfectly with a subwoofer and give lots of great sound and quality output.


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## Tufelhundin

Make sure you get a good sub, in HT a good sub can make or break a system. I'm partial to SVS, but there are others out there as well. Also, dont forget room treatment, a little $$ there can go a long ways. 

Room treatments are my next priority.....and should have been one of my first. As for the Oppo vs PS3, if you game then the PS3, I still game on PS2 and I chose the Oppo 83 and as of this time I feel its the best thing I have spent $$ on in my system.

Good luck and enjoy, for researching and piecing together a system is the fun part...for me at least.


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## John D.

GranteedEV said:


> While I love the idea of true active 3-way speakers, I'm not a fan of "built-in sub speakers". I'd rather get an easy to drive passive 3 way and pair it with a sub. Personally I feel tower only needs to extend down to ~60hz and have the smooth rolloff of a sealed box or transmission line below that, and crossovers should be designed with output in mind (350hz and ~3800hz are imo good XO points in a 3 way tower). In a sense the Def Techs do some things right but the execution is just missing something.


The more I think about this built in sub speaker, the more it seems like a novelty. If this was such a good idea, more mfg's would be doing the same thing.


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## John D.

Tufelhundin said:


> Make sure you get a good sub, in HT a good sub can make or break a system. I'm partial to SVS, but there are others out there as well. Also, dont forget room treatment, a little $$ there can go a long ways.
> 
> Room treatments are my next priority.....and should have been one of my first. As for the Oppo vs PS3, if you game then the PS3, I still game on PS2 and I chose the Oppo 83 and as of this time I feel its the best thing I have spent $$ on in my system.
> 
> Good luck and enjoy, for researching and piecing together a system is the fun part...for me at least.


This room has wall to wall carpet and floor to ceiling book shelves made of oak, adjacent wall has floor to ceiling storage cabinets made of oak at both corners. 
The Oppo BDP-93 has just been added, got it from the first batch made available. What type of room treatments are you considering?


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## Tufelhundin

John D. said:


> This room has wall to wall carpet and floor to ceiling book shelves made of oak, adjacent wall has floor to ceiling storage cabinets made of oak at both corners.
> The Oppo BDP-93 has just been added, got it from the first batch made available. What type of room treatments are you considering?




Basic bass traps & first reflection points. 


But for me personally....I need wall to wall treatment for I have a concrete basement with tile on the floor at this moment.

as I mentioned before tho.... a good sub is a must. You can build up with your speakers. I'm excited for you getting the Oppo...that's AWESOME!!!!

What ever AVR you get "my opinion only" it needs at least MultEQ-XT and preouts for an external amp in case you ever decide to go that rout. I have the Onk 1007 and I feel it was worth every penny for I do not plan on 3D, I use the Oppo for my video and I have an ASEQ for my dual PBU's.


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## GranteedEV

John D. said:


> The more I think about this built in sub speaker, the more it seems like a novelty. If this was such a good idea, more mfg's would be doing the same thing.


The idea of a powered bass section in a 3way by itself is very good , but you have to have line level input only and pair it with powered mids/highs as well. And 8" just isn't sufficient for a "sub" woofer. A loudspeaker wiith powered sub has to be active all the way through - a great example of this being the ATC SCM50SL. Either go all passive with a sub or all active, and really, still with a sub.

If you're interested in a passive full range tower, go old school with one of these babies:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/SB12.3/


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## John D.

OP here again

Well last night I pulled the trigger on a Onkyo TX-NR808, today I'm headed out to listen to some speakers.
As far as speakers are concerned, I've kinda got my eyes set on some PSB speakers. I will start with the fronts and center, 
with sub and rears coming in later. My question is about the Image T6 Towers and Image C5 center. Is this a good match for 
this receiver and room size? Any suggestions for listening to better speakers in this price range? 
My receiver should be here next week some time, looking forward to this all coming together.


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## bambino

The PSB's should be a very nice match to your AVR they are well built and i think you'll be more then happy.:T


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## Tufelhundin

Hey John just checking to see if you have received your Onkyo 808 yet and if their are anymore updates for your system. Also, I'm curious to hear your thoughts concerning the BDP 93.:T


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## John D.

Tufelhundin said:


> Hey John just checking to see if you have received your Onkyo 808 yet and if their are anymore updates for your system. Also, I'm curious to hear your thoughts concerning the BDP 93.:T


I received my Onkyo TX-NR808 on Friday. This thing was a little bigger than I thought I measured for, to fit in the lower shelf of my TV stand. As I went to slide it in to check the fit, it wouldn't go. I needed another 1/8th inch of clearance to slide it in. The feet on this unit were pretty thick, so I went to home depot and found exactly what I needed to replace the feet, it now fits like a glove. I had to order the PSB T6 towers, as they were out of stock, they had the C5 center in stock. I was told it would be a couple of weeks for the towers to come in. So, I'm hoping to have them by next week. I haven't decided on surrounds and sub yet, but I'm leaning toward a HSU Research sub. As for the BDP-93, I haven't used it much, other than to make sure it works. :bigsmile:


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## GranteedEV

John D. said:


> OP here again
> 
> Well last night I pulled the trigger on a Onkyo TX-NR808, today I'm headed out to listen to some speakers.
> As far as speakers are concerned, I've kinda got my eyes set on some PSB speakers. I will start with the fronts and center,
> with sub and rears coming in later. My question is about the Image T6 Towers and Image C5 center. Is this a good match for
> this receiver and room size? Any suggestions for listening to better speakers in this price range?
> My receiver should be here next week some time, looking forward to this all coming together.


Those PSBs T6's are a very nice deal. Although if I were going over the $1000 threshold I would probably wait out for the new Ascend Acoustic NRT Tower speakers or perhaps a pair of JTR Triple 8s. With the amplification I'd probably swing for SVS MTS-02s though.


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## Alan Brown

John D. said:


> I received my Onkyo TX-NR808 on Friday. This thing was a little bigger than I thought I measured for, to fit in the lower shelf of my TV stand. As I went to slide it in to check the fit, it wouldn't go. I needed another 1/8th inch of clearance to slide it in. The feet on this unit were pretty thick, so I went to home depot and found exactly what I needed to replace the feet, it now fits like a glove.....


Please check the Onkyo owner's manual for recommended clearances to provide adequate ventilation. Such a tight fit in your cabinet is asking for early failure due to excessive heat buildup. It can also result in poor performance. Improper ventilation is an oversight far too common in home entertainment installations. If you don't improve this issue, don't be surprised if the unit shuts off from thermal overload.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"


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## eugovector

Alan Brown said:


> Please check the Onkyo owner's manual for recommended clearances to provide adequate ventilation. Such a tight fit in your cabinet is asking for early failure due to excessive heat buildup. It can also result in poor performance. Improper ventilation is an oversight far too common in home entertainment installations. If you don't improve this issue, don't be surprised if the unit shuts off from thermal overload.
> 
> Best regards and beautiful pictures,
> Alan Brown, President
> CinemaQuest, Inc.
> A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate
> 
> "Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"



Ditto, fitting like a glove is not a good thing. Those hole in the top of your AVR aren't just there for decoration. You should have arleat an inch, if nor more, of space between the top of your avr and the stand, especially if there are ant kind of doors on the stand.


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## Tufelhundin

Glad to hear that you have received your Onkyo, but I have to go with everyone else's response concerning ventilation. I have a 603 and 1007 and they both run very warm. Onks are known for how warm/hot they can get. 

I'm sure your pumped with the PSB's being on order! As for the subs, I know HSU makes some good uns!


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## John D.

eugovector said:


> Ditto, fitting like a glove is not a good thing. Those hole in the top of your AVR aren't just there for decoration. You should have arleat an inch, if nor more, of space between the top of your avr and the stand, especially if there are ant kind of doors on the stand.


The fit like a glove comment was just a misnomer. Actually there is plenty of clearance all around. 
The TV stand is an open design w/ glass shelves that sit on steel beams. Once the ONKYO gets under the steel beam,
there is open space all around, including the top. Only an eighth of an less on the bottom. I hope that's not an issue, 
the original feet were 7/8 of an inch thick to begin with. I can always raise the unit back up to original clearance by
putting an eight inch back under the unit, once past the steel beam.


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## Tufelhundin

Good deal, you just never know on these forums and you never want to leave something unsaid that could actually help someone. I'm pretty pumped for you and your "soon to be system"! You should be pleased...very pleased. ;0)


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## John D.

OP here again, I just wanted to pop back in here and say thanks to everyone who had an answer to my questions, or made a suggestion. 
My system is finally hooked up and thanks to Audyssey it sounds great. This is what I ended up with.

:T

Vizio M55ONV - Razor LED LCD
Direct TV HD
OPPO BDP-93 Blue Ray 
ONKYO TX-NR808
PSB Image T6 Towers
PSB Image C5 Center
PSB Image S5 Surrounds
HSU Research VTF-1 Sub-Woofer


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## Tufelhundin

That's great to hear and thanks for coming back to let us know how things are sounding! It looks like you have an awesome setup, sad part is...there is no cure for the addiction.:rolleyesno:






















Soooooooooooooooo.....whats next?:R:rofl2:


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## John D.

OP here again. After having this system in place now for a few weeks, I just wanted to make a comment to those just getting into Home Theater. I initially came up with a budget of $1500.00 for receiver and speakers. All of the initial comments said that it was probably a little bit on the cheap side. I gave it some thought and did some homework and listening to speakers. In the end, I spent twice as much as I had anticipated. But, I'm so glad that I did. This setup really makes my day now! There's nothing worse than spending any amount of money and wishing you had something better. So, all I'm saying is think this out a little bit before you commit to an entry point system. :T


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## GranteedEV

John D. said:


> OP here again. After having this system in place now for a few weeks, I just wanted to make a comment to those just getting into Home Theater. I initially came up with a budget of $1500.00 for receiver and speakers. All of the initial comments said that it was probably a little bit on the cheap side. I gave it some thought and did some homework and listening to speakers. In the end, I spent twice as much as I had anticipated. But, I'm so glad that I did. This setup really makes my day now! There's nothing worse than spending any amount of money and wishing you had something better. So, all I'm saying is think this out a little bit before you commit to an entry point system. :T


Good to hear. It's truly never about the money spent, but the experience after you spend it. So when money alone dictates your decision the experience will suffer.. whether that's 50 dollars or 50 thousand dollars. When your pour your time, effort, and quest for high value into the process, you really end up satisfying yourself. I agree with you entirely.


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## vohiboy23

I have bought Planet Audio AC1000.2 that works great with 1000 watt 2 channel amp.


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## Anisha

I am reviewing these BP8040 Super Towers, the reasons why I am considering buying them is because they have a sub in every column. Can you say something about these columns? Award-Winning High Technology Speakers | Definitive Technology


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