# Electrostatic and Planar Speakers



## Candoo (Mar 19, 2009)

while I may not be able to afford a pair of electrostatic speakers. I have gone to local audio stores and auditioned them many times. the sweet clarify and the tingly highs. the crisp roll and sharp pokes. everything that makes electrostatic what it is.

I must say that I for one, have and will dream of the day that the tooth fairy leaves enough for a pair of these for me. hehe

I'd like to open this conversation up for comments and the like.

please share your experiences with electrostatic speakers and your dreams reguarding them.


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

*Re: electrostatic speakers*

I had some Magnapan speakers years ago. They were very hard to drive, but, had a great smooth sound. Not much in the low end, tho. Dennis


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

*Re: electrostatic speakers*

The Magnepan MMGs at $600 a pair are a great value and can build upon a foundation of a good subwoofer like the SVS SB12-Plus. You'ld be hard pressed to find a box speaker for $1300 a pair that would sound as good as this combo. I'd suggest good amplification for the MMGs with around 200 wpc @ 4 Ohms.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

*Re: electrostatic speakers*

That's if you have the room and the ability to place them properly. They can sound great in the right place, but placement is a big deal.


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## Candoo (Mar 19, 2009)

*Re: electrostatic speakers*

well as long as it's not stadium size. i would imagine a 18x20 room would be reasonably close to large enough. 

and yes $1300 for a pair isn't a bad deal over all. not when you compair the martin logan equiv.

most rinky dink AV receivers could't drive them properly from the sounds of it. you'd probably need a separate amp. hmmm

the ideas are endless........... but man the rewards.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: electrostatic speakers*

You really have to step up to get a pair that will not be hard to drive and will not be so finicky with placement. Something like the Martin Logan Purity's, which are fully powered, can be purchased off Audiogon for a couple thousand. The Vantages, which are very highly regarded, have powered bass and are easy to drive with a receiver... also not too picky with placement.

I had a pair of Ascent i's, an older model of ML's. While my small Denon receiver would not do them justice, my NAD receiver made them sing. These were in a very small, 11.5' wide by 19.5' deep room... and they sounded spectacular. They changed my entire outlook on great sounding speakers.

I have Spire's in the storage room, waiting on the HT room to get finished. I can hardly wait.

I will tell you this... now that I have owned electrostatic speakers, I will most likely never look back. I have not heard anything that can match the clarity, imaging, and the huge, very wide and deep sound stage that they can produce. They are truly amazing!


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## steverc (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: electrostatic speakers*

For $600 a pair I would look for a used pair of Magnepan MG3s. I've seen them for this low recently but I paid an average of $900 for the four pair that I have. 

My original theater was going to be 24' by 19' but due to extended unemployment I could not afford to remove and rebuild the space I had planed on, so my theater is only 22' by 15'. I don't have enough room to put the MG3s at the side of the seating area so I had to put them in the back corners. I have a pair of MMGs that I will put in the back center. The MG3s have much better low end than the MMGs they still won't rattle the furniture but the four 18" subs in the ceiling do rattle the siding out side my theater. As you can see in the pictures of my theater I used one of the MG3s on it's side for the center channel. This sounds great in the two center seats in both rows but is not nearly as loud at the end seats. When I find a good timber matched center speaker with better dispersion I will replace the one that is there now.

And just to set things straight since this started with a discussion of electrostatics, Maggies are not electrostatics. They have a similar sound but the highs are not nearly as bright/sizzling. I love what these speakers do for the human voice. I have not had any trouble driving these with any reasonably modern amp but I would go for at least 110 watts for the MG3s. The MMGs are much smaller and I had no problems driving them with 90 watts.

Steve
http://www.kn7f.com/Theater/Finished/


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## Jeff Aguilar (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: electrostatic speakers*

Once you experience electrostatic speakers, it's hard to want to listen to anything else. I once had a pair of Martin Logan Aerius i speakers, and I ran a small tube amp with them. I think it was about 35 watts a channel. They really needed more power, so I upped the watts to 100. Those tubes made the ML sing. I do miss the sound! They were incredible. I now have a dedicated theater room and downsized the speakers and amps. I long to hear tubes with ML again someday! One day I will invest in them again. But, once you experience that sound, you cannot help but always come that to everything else you hear! Dangerous thing you did by going to audition them!

Jeff Aguilar


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## Dagoods (Jun 17, 2008)

*Re: electrostatic speakers*

Guys dangerous is a good description! I was in my local shop on Wednesday and saw a pair of Maggie MG 1.6''s and tonight they are sitting in my HT. All I can say is they are amazing! 

All I went in for was a motor upgrade kit for my Rega. 

I can't stop listening to them tonight.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

*Re: electrostatic speakers*

Just to avoid confusion, the Magnepans are not an electrostatic speaker. The are a planar magnetic. The use a magnet to move the diaphram, not electrostatic drive like electrostatics.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I updated the thread title to add "Planar" speakers.

Planar speakers would include electrostatics, ribbons, etc.


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## reed.hannebaum (Apr 21, 2006)

About a year ago I bought a pair of Magnepan MG12/QR. These 2-way planar speakers are quite amazing. I am driving them now with a Jolida 1501A tube hybrid amp (Sovtek 12AX7LPS); which is a marriage made in heaven. At 100W/ch the Jolida has no trouble at all driving these guys. 

As everyone says, Maggies are a little weak in the bass and are dificult to locate, but when its set up right the sound can be hugely rewarding. Female voices are right in the room with you. The sound stage is vivid and 3-dimensional. Instruments are clearly delineated even in complex orchestral arrangements. Of course all of this depends on the quality of the source material. With the maggies I can easily tell the difference between a mediocre and a very good recording.

Though the box speakers in my HT system really sound great and are quite musical, when I truly what to hear great sound I will turn on my 2-channel system and let those maggies sing.


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## bh48 (Mar 21, 2009)

Maggies are wonderful speakers -- But even the 3 series need a sub for the bottom end. Be sure to high pass the mains. When I changed from running the mains and sub in parallel to running them crossed over was when the magic happened.


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## Dagoods (Jun 17, 2008)

bh48 said:


> Maggies are wonderful speakers -- But even the 3 series need a sub for the bottom end. Be sure to high pass the mains. When I changed from running the mains and sub in parallel to running them crossed over was when the magic happened.


I agree. I am running 2 Outlaw LFM-1 EX's with my 1.6's. Plenty of bass when needed.


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## Jeff Aguilar (Apr 11, 2006)

I have never really listened to the Maggies. How would you compare them to the ML? I know that everyone has a strong opinion when it comes to these two technologies, but I am curious what the differences are. When I had my Martin Logan's, I needed a sub.

Jeff Aguilar


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## Dagoods (Jun 17, 2008)

Never had a chance to hear the ML's so I could not say. Honestly I think the bass from the Maggie's is pretty good. Most of the time I don't run the subs with them for music.


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## WmAx (Jan 26, 2008)

The main benefit from this type of speaker is the lack of box/cabinet panel coloration and internal cavity coloration that results from the overwhelming majority of box speakers.

I believe many people get used to this lack of specific coloration, and some people may even like the unique rear radiation reflected contribution that most of these speakers provide, and then find most box speakers to be sub par in comparison. But, a box speaker can be every bit as good, and even superior: it is simply a very rare occurrence that a box speaker is produced/engineered to such standards. Also, don't presume that money will solve this problem instantly. Even if you have heard 15k-20k box speakers that are 'highly regarded', it is not a very high probability that the cabinet is built/designed to be neutral just because of the price. Then there is the issue of the back firing acoustic energy common on most ESL speakers.....

-Chris


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## Candoo (Mar 19, 2009)

this has turned into a great thread. and thank you all so much for participating thus far. 

I cannot wait too own mIy first pair of electrostatic speakers.
I sitll remember how it all started.......

I was in Best boy one day (yes best buy) and we all know that Bust Buy is rarely a best buy. anyway. I decided to wonder back in that littel room they have way in the back. with the "really over priced high end stuff" in it.

there they sat Martin Logan Purity's I slowly turned the knob on the nearby reciever and slowly began to hear the clearity creep into my ears. untill BAMMMM the smooth bass of a deep voice from the lower poriton of the cabinet came to life and brought the clarity and smooothness too complete fullness in my ears.

the further i steped away from them the more they dissapeared. There were not far enough apart for proper seperation however my moving back helped with that.

i left there with one thought in my mind. that one day. somehow I would live with sound like that and it would not just only during breif visits when my wife can drive me there to visit them.

some folks go on and on about bass and while bass has it's place hehe.

I personally am all about realness the ideal soundstage where the speakers dissapear and the room opens up and your tranplanted into a world created by an artist.

once again thanks for sharing in my thead.


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## bh48 (Mar 21, 2009)

I was researching subwoofers and came across a review of an ACI sub which stated that "when mated with Maggie MMGs and properly set up, the Force subwoofer provides a very high value music system. For less than $1500 you get great sound from 20 to 20kHz."


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## auplater (Jan 2, 2007)

Built these in 2005, haven't looked back since... BG RD 75's with 4 sonosub EBS's to manage nass and infra modes in room for HT and critical listening

















Beat anything I've heard in 40 + years of audio wide soundstage, great imaging, articulate.... and I've heard alot of speakers/systems

John L.


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

I love my LS-9's that use 9 separate planar tweeter/mids. They are crossed over at 800Hz to twelve 6.5" cone drivers. Planar and electrostatic speakers are certainly sweet!


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

Oh and auplatar, welcome to the Shack! Very nice looking speakers, too!


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## auplater (Jan 2, 2007)

Thanx for the welcome, Jon...

here are a few more shots... plus a preliminary ARTA plot when I was upgrading the xover... in room, probably good down to 200 hz or so

































I'm still tweaking things, and currently re-doing the cabinet finish...

John L.


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

Very nice! Keep us informed on your tweaking progress! I do want to get more into DIY stuff, myself.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Auplater, that is a very impressive setup indeed. Looks like you also have a Sony SXRD display. I absolutely love mine and have yet to see a display to make me want to upgrade. Though I must say that Pioneer's 9G Kuro's are awfully tempting.

I will second the merits of Electrostatic Speakers. I am running a 5.1 Martin Logan setup consisting of Vantages (main), Stage (center), Vista/Montage (surround), and Depth subwoofer. I have been alternating the Vista's and Montage for the Surround channel and using one or the other on a secondary setup. I have been quite pleased.

I will say even with semi active speakers like my Vantages that outboard amplification should almost be considered compulsory. While relatively efficient, they still present a daunting load to a partnering amplifier (around 1 ohm at 20 khz) Granted there is hardly any musical information that high, even at lower high frequencies, it is a taxing load. If not using enough current, the result is often rolled off highs. Tis such a pity as the highs and midrange is where Electrostatic Speakers shine.

I am also quite fond of Magneplanar's. My younger brother has 3.6's in a bonkers 2 channel setup with Rogue Tube Monoblocks and a Rockport Turntable. It is an amazing system. The punk also has dual Ascent i's, Theater i and Descent i in a HT setup.

I must say there is something to be said of the Ascent i generation of Martin Logan's. This was the last generation before ML was sold to ShoreView. While the current generation is quite good, they are tiny compared to the Prodigy, Odyssey, Ascent, Aeon generation. Even my brothers Ascent i's are much bigger than my Vantages. And the Prodigies are monster masterpieces. 133 pounds on sonic bliss. 

There are nice aspects to the current generation. The Xstat panel really sounds great and the active woofers of the Vantage, Spire, and Summit X does make for an easier load on partnering amplification.
In addition, the aluminum framing is definitely a plus. However, the much smaller panel sizes is not.
ML marketing leads you to believe that thanks to the Xstat panel, the soundstage and dispersion is similar or better. However, I am not so sure.
Cheers,
JJ


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## BrianAbington (Mar 19, 2008)

as I said in sonnies thread recently I too had a chance to experience the ML purity's at a BB in denver. I was pretty set on some Def Tech BP towers, and I have never had my mind instantly changed on anything in my life until I heard the ML's. Now I am set on ML's for an eventual home theater, price allowing of course.


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## deafbykhorns (Oct 9, 2009)

Quads are the best I've heard for nearfield.
Soundlabs had the best bass without using a sub


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## fabulousfrankie (Apr 17, 2007)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Auplater, that is a very impressive setup indeed. Looks like you also have a Sony SXRD display. I absolutely love mine and have yet to see a display to make me want to upgrade. Though I must say that Pioneer's 9G Kuro's are awfully tempting.
> 
> I will second the merits of Electrostatic Speakers. I am running a 5.1 Martin Logan setup consisting of Vantages (main), Stage (center), Vista/Montage (surround), and Depth subwoofer. I have been alternating the Vista's and Montage for the Surround channel and using one or the other on a secondary setup. I have been quite pleased.
> ...


I've had the chance to A/B/C the Vista, Vantage, and Ascent i in the same room, same placement, and run by same equipment. It is my opinion the Xstat is far superior to the GenII panel in the Ascent i. The Ascent i had fuller low end than the Vista but not as clean or coherent mid and top end. The Vantage is just a far superior speaker IMO regardless of its size.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I am glad you had the opportunity to demo all of them in the same room. That is a rare treat. 
As I said, I am quite happy with my Vantage, Stage, Vista/Montage, Depth setup. It was shocking, initially, to see how much smaller they are. But in the end, I ended up purchasing current generation ML's.

I still entertain notions of switching to an all Thiel setup, but probably will not happen anytime soon. I really am quite pleased with my current speaker array and am shocked at how loud they play.
Cheers,
JJ


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## fabulousfrankie (Apr 17, 2007)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I am glad you had the opportunity to demo all of them in the same room. That is a rare treat.
> As I said, I am quite happy with my Vantage, Stage, Vista/Montage, Depth setup. It was shocking, initially, to see how much smaller they are. But in the end, I ended up purchasing current generation ML's.
> 
> ...


I used to work at Tweeter so I just put them all in a room and compared with some of the guys there. I think I'll have a hard time getting used to non dipole speakers from now on. I have Summit/Stage/Scripti and Source/Vignette/Passages.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
A fellow Loganista. Awesome rig you got there. Are you using a subwoofer with your Summit/Stage/Script setup? I really love my Stage. And I was tortured whether or not to get the Summit's or Vantages.

Sonnie runs Prodigy/Theater i/Ascent i/ and some awesome subs in his HT. We really are blessed to have 5 channel Martin Logan sound.

The myth I often come up against is that Martin Logan's cannot do HT at high SPL's. Nothing could be further from the truth. Especially when augmented with a high quality subwoofer.
Cheers,
JJ


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## fabulousfrankie (Apr 17, 2007)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> A fellow Loganista. Awesome rig you got there. Are you using a subwoofer with your Summit/Stage/Script setup? I really love my Stage. And I was tortured whether or not to get the Summit's or Vantages.
> 
> Sonnie runs Prodigy/Theater i/Ascent i/ and some awesome subs in his HT. We really are blessed to have 5 channel Martin Logan sound.
> ...


No sub right now, just a Buttkicker. I had a Adire Tumult sub but I sold it because I'm in an apartment. Hopefully I'll be getting a house in a few months(my system is kinda wasted here for movies). I've been thinking of moving my bedroom sub since I only watch TV at night there.


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## victor tubeman (Feb 3, 2010)

Hi,
I have used Martin Logans for 10 years plus,with very high quality amps for 2 ch and HT main system. Prodigy fronts,logos centre and Requests for rears and 4 subs revels and Genesis,which on movies sound sublime.The ML can go louder than any other electrostatics and Planars(with the exception of bass big soundlabs etc).What they can do that most speakers miss is low db range ie 30db to 55db,99% of speakers miss this information if room has low a noise floor.
Cheers Victor.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Victor,
That is a great setup you have there and not too different from the Founder and Owner of HTS Sonnie's HT Speaker setup. Prodigies are absolutely fantastic Speakers. THere is a faction of fans of the Logos who find it to be the best CC ML has produced
Cheers,
JJ


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## WmAx (Jan 26, 2008)

*Re: electrostatic speakers*



Jeff Aguilar said:


> Once you experience electrostatic speakers, it's hard to want to listen to anything else.


This is mostly because the majority of dynamic speakers are not very well designed/built, even the high cost ones. Even something as critical and basic as cabinet panel output is overlooked most of the time - and this is just one key thing that ESLs don't have to deal with as a large advantage out of the gate. However, a properly designed dynamic speaker system can exceed all electrostatic SQ properties with ease.

-Chris


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I find that is a assertion that is difficult to quantify as they are such different technologies. Yes, cabinet interactions can have a profound effect with Cone Based Speakers, but with a completely different way of reproducing sound, I do not agree that what makes Electrostatic and Planar Speakers special can be surpassed in such a definitive way.
Cheers,
JJ


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## WmAx (Jan 26, 2008)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I find that is a assertion that is difficult to quantify as they are such different technologies. Yes, cabinet interactions can have a profound effect with Cone Based Speakers, but with a completely different way of reproducing sound, I do not agree that what makes Electrostatic and Planar Speakers special can be surpassed in such a definitive way.
> Cheers,
> JJ


They may be different technologies, but the factors at play, relevant to audibility, are not so different. The defining sound of an ESL is the lack of resonances, linearity, back sound radiation and poor off axis response. In fact, it's easy to surpass the ESL with proper design/application using dynamic drivers, as you can replicate every aspect that makes the ESL sound special, and then surpass it's off axis response dramatically with ease. Off axis characteristics also play a huge role in percieved SQ. But the final sound you end up with is a sum of many different properties, and you optimize more using dynamic drivers.

I have studied the relevant perceptual research and applied it for years; this stuff is mostly basic to me, but I understand it is a complex issue and most can not understand thoroughly, as I'm sure most people are not nearly interested enough to devote years of study/application to the field as I have.

-Chris


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I am certainly not doubting your credentials as I hope you are not mine. I am painfully aware of Electrostatic Speaker shortcomings. That being said, I found the juice worth the squeeze. 

I know many people do not care for ESL's and some are outright dismissive. Regardless, I will never agree that all of what makes Electrostatic or Planar Speakers special can be engineered into dynamic drivers and the associated enclosure.
Cheers,
JJ


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## victor tubeman (Feb 3, 2010)

*Re: electrostatic speakers*

Hi,
Which electrostatics speakers have you listen too?If possible the dynamic speakers that you have compared.Low level detail only horn speakers can match(ie 25db to 45db range),above 105db ML are not really suited but with high quality system matching not much can come close.Depending on musical tastes.
PS, I have listen to wilsons Maxx 2,3 ,X1 ,Alexandria X2,focal Grand utopia EM,Dynaudio Evidence Masters,Gryphon Poseidon (best of the bunch) ,avantgarde Duo,Trios to name a few with the intention to buy.System matching very important at these levels and the room to house them.
Cheers Victor.


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## victor tubeman (Feb 3, 2010)

Hi JJ,
Thankyou for the kind comment,the logos has an advantage in larger HT,but I do notice a slight Timbre mismatch with prodigy,s partly amp related too ss amp centre,last upgrade for room will be tube amp for centre.I hope?
Cheers Victor.


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## sandbag (Aug 2, 2009)

My Maggie 3.6s are not weak in the bass. Driving with Carver Signature Series II wired current source to treble/mid and voltage for bass. The fastest most accurate bass I've heard.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I love Maggie 3.6's. My little brother just sold his to purchase a pair of Focal Towers in his 2 channel rig. He has a Martin Logan 5.1 system consisting of dual pairs of Ascent i's, Theater i, and Descent i. So he just wanted a change from having Panels in both systems.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
This is JoeESP9's post that I accidentally deleted:
have been a planar speaker fan since buying a pair of Magnaplanar MG-1's in 1976. I moved up the line with MG-2's and MG-3's. In 1984 I purchased a pair of Acoustat electrostatics. Since them I've had nothing but full range electrostatics. Currently I have four Acoustat electrostatics in my listening/HT room. They never fail to amaze me with the purity and clarity of their sound.
I believe that one of the things that I find so involving about electrostatic sound is the lack of any crossover in the midrange. My "stats" are without crossovers from 85Hz up on the fronts and from 100Hz up on the rears. For those who say ESL's don't play loud; my front Spectra 22's are rated to produce 110db at 20ft in a 15ftx22ftx8ft room. Off loading the bass below 85hz allows them to play even louder if I desire. Two 12" transmission line subs equalized flat to 18Hz fill out the low end quite nicely.

For those who have heard and liked Magnaplanars, you will love electrostatics. 

One caveat:
Magnaplanars, Ribbons and ESL's will show any shortcomings in your sources or amplifiers. Poor recordings of which there are way too many will show all that's bad in them. Planar speakers are not romantic or forgiving. However with good gear and a good recording nothing else comes close.

Most of the current Martin Logan line of smaller hybrid ESL's are not to my liking. I believe the crossover from esl panel to cone woofer is at too high a frequency. There is a discontinuity because of the differing dispersion patterns of panels and cones. With any panel the lower the crossover frequency to the woofers the better. For me anything higher than 100hz is unacceptable.


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## speakernut.801 (Nov 30, 2009)

Just my 2 cent's worth, I have both the mmg's and ML auries i speakers and I hooked them up to a classic Yamaha 2020 integrated amp and my brother an I A/B'd them side by side. The speakers had almost identical placements about 1/3 along the sidewalls of a 11 X 16 room. The surprising part was how close the percieved sound was from both of them. MMG's have only thier panels for bass, the auries i's have a 8" sealed bass unit, so they had better bass of course. We noticed the MMG's seemed a bit more natural voical range, while the ML's excelled in the upper register's. Both imaged very well with singers and instruments placed in very definate places in the sound field. Both units are power hungrey, needs abt 150 watts to really shine and "bloom". I keep switching them in and out as they both have very good sound attribute's. In all, it seems every speaker has it's own coloration, it's a matter of finding the one that is most pleasing to your taste's, like chocolate, vanilla or strawberry ice cream. That's the great thing about this audio hobby, there is always a new speaker, amp, cables, subwoofer, CD player, room treatment and so forth to try out, then share on these forum's for all the rest of us obsessed maniac's!


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

The tweeters in the lower priced Magnaplanar's including the "quasi" ribbon models have no where near the high end the true ribbon tweeters in the 3.6R's and 20.1's have. It may be the reason some say Maggy's have a rolled off high end. The true ribbons in the larger (more expensive) models sound much closer to an electrostatic tweeter. They are considered by some to be the best tweeters in existence.
Maggy owners should try listening to them from the back. The midrange and treble are more open with a more extended treble. The perforated steel plate is not in the way when listening to the backside. This doesn't have as much effect on the true ribbon model's tweeters. However, the midrange will still benefit. Some Maggy models have push pull diaphragms those models will not benefit from listening to the backs. Those models are mostly older discontinued models.

I should mention Eminent Technology. Their LFT-8 is comparably priced and sized to the Maggy 1.6Qr's and sound just as good although different. They are of course planar magnetic in their operation. Also, they include a cone type woofer like Martin Logan's.


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