# Lip sync - audio lagging, how to delay video?



## Wooderson

Hi guys (and gals?)--

Googling lip sync will give you about 100 hits of pages talking about video processing requiring audio delay to match. And they'll all tell you about your AVR (or TV, or...) setting to inject audio delay.

I battle lip sync almost constantly. I can usually get synchronization with my HTPC player software (either MPC-HC or PowerDVD), but Netflix is constant hit or miss. Right now, my Sony KDL70R550A Netflix app is out of sync by ~80ms(estimated). It's enough to destroy the experience. The problem is that I need to delay *THE VIDEO* to fix it. I see mouths move before the sound comes out. I checked my AVR and TV settings to make sure I don't have any audio delay turned on.

Setup:
TV Netflix app
TV <-> Sony STR-DH540 HDMI1 (ARC)

That's all that matters for this question. The rest of the setup is trivial:
HTPC AMD Video Card HDMI -> Sony STR-DH540 HDMI2

I have seen this "need to delay video" problem over and over, but it seems like I'm the only person on the internet talking about it. Is there an AVR capable of buffering video enough to delay it by up to 100ms. And/or is there an AVR on the market with direct remote control access to adjusting lip sync (ie, +/- buttons right on the remote, not in the setup menus).

Is anyone else sick and tired of lip sync problems with basically everything? It drives me bonkers. Netflix on your Android pad with audio sent to stereo via bluetooth? Hah! If the industry can't get it right, can't they at least give us easy-access controls to fix it ourselves?? That's what's killing me. Netflix must get a zillion lip sync questions and there's still no way to slide audio/video relative to each other in the various Netflix players?? A little math shows that it doesn't take much RAM to buffer video for 100ms. That can't be the excuse.

Thanks for listening to my rant ,
--Myles

Search tags for google: How to delay video, audio lags video


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## Catsfield

I have an inexpensive Pioneer AVR where sound delay can be set up to 9 frames (25 frames per sec. PAL).
There must be others around with similar capabilities.


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## Wooderson

How do I delay video? Ie, how do I fix lip synch when audio is already lagging?


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## chashint

Deleted.


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## chashint

Fixed


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## davidjschenk

Hi Wooderson,

I've seen _very few_ solutions offered to your dilemma. The only one I know of for sure is on some of the fancier external video processors. For instance, on my DVDO iScan Duo, I have a setting that can either delay audio or delay video. The setting is called <Audio Delay>, but I can set its value to be positive or negative. If positive, it delays audio; if negative, it pushes audio ahead of video (i.e., delays video).

Really, though, the DVDOs and Radiances are the only places I've seen this, and they're not cheap. Sorry to be a bearer of bad news.

Yours,

David


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## Wooderson

Ok. Fixed. Now hopefully I can find some help.


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## Wooderson

Thanks David. This is what I'm finding too. Of all the hundreds, nay thousands, of AV gadgets on the market, I'm flabbergasted that nobody has a one-stop-shopping gadget to fix all lip sync problems for $50. Ideally, it would have multiple profiles (that could be switched with a Harmony, for instance, when switching AVR inputs). And the ability to delay video or audio.

Alternatives:
TV
Netlifx - Good video quality, 5.1 sound, lip sync really bad

HTPC, Windows8.1, lip sync is reasonably good for all players
Netflix app - Video quality is awful (750kbps max on test video), 5.1 sound
Chrome-based player - Video quality is awful, same as above, maybe worse, 2.0 sound
IE11-based player - Video quality is great (can achieve 1080p/3000kbps on test video), cannot play 5.1 audio, 2.0 PCM only

So I have no option for which everything works.

And for the TV Netflix app, there would be no way to delay the video since the video signal never leaves the TV except through the screen. I saw some reports of Netflix lip sync problems on the Sony forums, but the Sony reps just gave non-answers and they go unresolved. Seems everyone wants to blame the other guy (Netflix, TV, AVR) and nobody can provide full featured solutions.

I've tried using optical audio out of the TV instead of ARC, but I can't get 5.1 unless I use ARC.

Achieving 5.1 sound when streaming is one of the holiest of grails.

I wonder why none of the STB's (Roku, Chromecast, etc) allow video delay. That's where this issue should be fixed. At 8000kbps, it only takes 100KB of RAM to buffer 100ms of video (less actually since some of that 8Mbps is audio). That's not a lot of RAM.


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## davidjschenk

Wooderson said:


> Thanks David. This is what I'm finding too. Of all the hundreds, nay thousands, of AV gadgets on the market, I'm flabbergasted that nobody has a one-stop-shopping gadget to fix all lip sync problems for $50. Ideally, it would have multiple profiles (that could be switched with a Harmony, for instance, when switching AVR inputs). And the ability to delay video or audio.


I wondered about this at length once, too, and a good friend explained it to me in one of our late-night conversations. His claim was that the all the fancy video processing in modern flat panel TVs generates a noticeable video delay, so AVR manufacturers routinely put in an audio delay option to correct for that. But because its comparatively rare for video to outrun audio in the output, they don't include video delay capabilities.

If you can find a used Radiance or DVDO that's affordable for you, that likely will be your best bet. Otherwise, I don't know what you can do.

Sympathetically yours,

David


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## Wooderson

Some more info. When using the TV speakers, Netflix A/V is in sync. So it's ARC + my Sony AVR that's causing the audio delay. I wonder if the speaker distance setting is causing some delay?? I'll check that. Next is to test out my Chromecast and see how it works.

I found a thread on AVS that pinpoints the video quality issues on PC based players. I'm seeing the same as this guy. So PC-based solutions are out. I can't stand fuzzy-vision.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/184-v...est-possible-netflix-streaming-device-44.html


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## gazoink

The lip-sync issue is fundamentally caused by video processing delay, so there's no need for a device to further delay the video. It would never be a $50 device, involving essentially a 1080p uncompressed frame-store device.

I would agree that it's related to ARC from the TV, possibly the TV trying to correct for lip sync, plus the AVR doing it too, throwing things off. See if the TV has a way to shut off its lip-sync, then deal with it in the AVR. You might try a set-top box or disc player with a Netflix app and let the AVR straighten things out. Some AVRs, (the Denon X4000 for example) lets you set lip-sync audio delay for each input independently. Not sure if your Sony would do that or if lip-sync correction is global in that unit.

Speaker distance settings won't affect lip sync. They are there to match up arrival times for your LCR speakers, and the distance correction is typically less than a couple ms.


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## Wooderson

Some more info. When using the TV speakers, Netflix A/V is in sync. So it's ARC + my Sony AVR that's causing the audio delay. I wonder if the speaker distance setting is causing some delay?? I'll check that. Nope, didn't do anything. Next is to test out my Chromecast and see how it works.

I found a thread on AVS that pinpoints the video quality issues on PC based players. I'm seeing the same as this guy. So PC-based solutions are out. I can't stand fuzzy-vision.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/184-v...est-possible-netflix-streaming-device-44.html

Update: I can't find anything to bring the TV-Netflix + ARC in line. Good news though. Chromecast plugged into one of the AVR's HDMI inputs looks like it's ticking all the marks. Lip sync is pretty good. Probably off by ~10 or 20ms (audio lagging again), but bearable. Bit-rate is as good as the TV. Machete Kills, for example, is very detailed video and 5.1 sound. And for some reason, the lip sync is dead on (AVR display reads Dolby D +). I've been watching Damages. Even though the details on Netflix sas 5.1, it's only 2.0. Maybe the lip sync is worse for 2.0 source material?? But still, the sync is good enough.

So I have a solution that works. I imagine a better AVR would not have a problem with so much audio delay. This cheapo Sony AVR has given me many many headaches. I can't wait to get rid of it. But I'm holding out for an AVR that can delay video .


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## rab-byte

Your question peeks my internist. Are you getting audio prior to video, sound starts before picture catches up? If that's the case it sounds like the app it bad. I'd use another conduit for playback... Say a BDP or game system. If it's that audio is too far behind then it's defiantly an issue with HDMI-Sync. This may also require using an internal app or using an optical cable with your avr. 

Don't really understand why CEC has to be on for ARC to work. Go figure.


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## Wooderson

Lips move first, then sound follows. And it's even happening, to a lesser degree, with my Chromecast plugged into one of the AVR's HDMI inputs.

This actually makes sense. If the TV+ARC or Chromecast present the audio/video in sync to the AVR and the AVR delays the sound (which it shouldn't do, or should do very very little of) like this bargain-basement Sony AVR is doing, then bam, you get lip sync that simply can't be fixed. *Unless* the producer of the stream gives me the ability to have the stream packets stitched together with a settable video lag built into it.

It's amazing to me how many people here and on the internet don't want to accept that I have an audio lag problem. So far rab-byte ("Are you getting audio prior to video?"), gazoink, and Catsfield have all responded with the mindset that my audio is leading (therefore delaying audio will fix it). The rest of the internet is this way too. I can barely find anything related to the need to delay video. It's almost enough to make me think I'm going crazy and everyone else is right (that it's impossible for audio to lag).

To gazoink: I don't think the solution would be to buffer raw frame data. The player app needs to be able to deinterlace the stream (but not decode), buffer the video component, and stitch it back together with delayed video. Then feed it downstream to the decoder. The solution probably lies somewhere in my musings in the next paragraph.

FWIW, the LAV audio decoder that I use with MPC-HC can set the audio delay to a negative number. And it actually works. I would love to know the plumbing behind the scenes that makes that possible. Does it somehow communicate with the splitter or video decoder to buffer the video? Or is there some nominal delay built in that they can remove? Maybe the audio decoder reports it's delay to the player, and likewise with the video decoder, so that the player can attempt to synchronize them? So then audio delay can be decreased? All speculation...

I can't get 5.1 via the optical output of the TV. It's a pretty well known problem. So that's out. I'm stuck with ARC (or with my Chromecast and a little bit of audio lagging mis-sync).

I appreciate everyone's responses. Google searching has gas-lighted me into thinking I'm the only person in the world with lagging audio. So it's nice to have some ears to air out my frustration to :wave:. The final solution may be to construct a trebuchet to launch this Sony AVR with. My reasoning was that a Sony AVR would be most compatible with a Sony TV. HAH!!


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## rab-byte

Try turning frame interpolation off.


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## willis7469

Hey Wooderson! If you launch that thing, please include a video! Can/have you set the AVR to video pass through? Maybe the sony is adding processing. I agree with rab-byte, in killing interpolation. I would kill all the video processing you can. Does your tele have a game mode? I think they use the least picture processing so the player has less latency issues. If it works(or helps a little) you should be able to adjust the picture you your liking. I'm probably grasping at straws, but I feel your pain, and sometimes it's easy to overthink stuff. :devil: whisper ...launch it launch it launch it...


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## rab-byte

Your EDID info from the display includes an audio delay profile for HDMI sync. 120/240hz can introduce different delay. Adjusting your video processing may be the way to correct this issue.


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## Wooderson

I don't use any video processing. None. Zero. But, and maybe I don't understand, why am I getting more advice to speed up my video (less processing)? I need to *delay* my video. If anything, the advice should be to turn some on (like maybe some low-level noise reduction could be non-noticeable). But doesn't matter. I tried that already. No change I could notice.

Let's try again: I need to either speed up my audio, or delay my video. Let me put that another way: I need to delay my video, or speed up my audio. Put another way, my audio lags. Put another way, my video leads.

The lingering question remains: Why is the sync bang-on when I use the TV speakers, but audio lagging by ~80ms when I send ARC to the AVR? I guess this is a bug that there's 0% chance Sony would ever acknowledge, much less fix. "Try using a static IP address" is some of the junk I've seen on the Sony TV forums. Come on, that's not even trying. There's even one guy on there who says he works in TV broadcasting, jumping up and down screaming about lip sync, telling them exactly what's wrong, and the responses seem like they're coming from a common tree squirrel instead of actual human people.

I think the fact that it works with the TV speakers means Sony is washing their hands of it. In a perfect world, the AVR accurately measure and communicate it's delay back to the TV so that the TV could adjust the video/ARC skew to compensate.

And the grand-daddy question of them all is why is there not a standard for microphone-based lip-sync auto-fixing for all applications (bluetooth, etc)??? The industry either needs to give us this capability, or at least the ability to fix it manually (in such a way that I can fix each signal stream [HTPC, BD drive, STB, dish/cable] once and forget it). :rant: :rant:


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## willis7469

Sorry woods, I can't read today. Fwiw, I'd still like to see you launch that thing!


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## rab-byte

I feel your frustration. Troubleshooting unique issues can be arduous at times. 
What content has this lag? 
Are you getting the same issue off of OTA/Basic Cable? 
Are these issues present on other sources like your had cable box or BDP?
If you run your BDP straight into your TV do you get audio lag when using ARC?
What about other streaming (YouTube/Amazon)?


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## rab-byte

I ask because this might help identify if the issue is your TV, the TVs netflix app, your network speed, or the AVR.


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## Wooderson

Just about everything I do in A/V here in my TV room has some amount of lip-sync trouble. I just try to ignore anything < ~10ms (ie, DirectTV). But for the purposes of this thread, let's just concentrate on Netflix streaming.

Can someone explain why bandwidth could cause lip sync problems? Don't stream packets show up with the audio and video interlaced together? How could a slow connection cause a static skew between them? Besides the point. I speedtest at around 18mbps. Even though Netflix hasn't paid the AT&T piper, I can still get 5Mbps streams.

2009. Yeh, we've so totally whooped lip sync 5 years later (that's my sarcasm again).

http://www.tvtechnology.com/audio-b...rprinting-helps-detect-lip-sync-errors/204124

What people don't seem to get is that it can only be truly fixed at the end of the line. There must be a feedback loop at my eyes/ears. Ie, a cheap light sensor / microphone. I turn out the lights in the room and then the equipment (ie, a Netflix player software) plays an intended synchronized beep and flash. The combo-sensor measures the skew and feeds it back to the equipment which then compensates. Sounds cheap and simple to me. And phones/pads already have all the equipment *already built in*! So why can't I lay in bed watching my Nexus 7 and send the sound to a bluetooth receiver hooked to the audio system in my room, without the > 1000ms lip sync skew I get? And guess what? In that scenario, somewhat obviously, here we go again, let's all chant together: "The audio lags the video".

Ok, so that's just some fun ranting. Let's focus back on Netflix with my normal watching setup (hardware outlined in OP).

For youtube (via Chrome web browser) on my HTPC hooked into AVR, lip sync is pretty much dead on (I was a little shocked actually).






But recall, all Windows-based Netflix players (I don't know how to invoke the HTML 5 player; Silverlight is used in both Chrome and IE), the lip sync is pretty much perfect.

@Willis: After all the work I'm putting into my new pair of SI-18 sonosubs, I don't think I have trebuchet construction in me. Maybe I'll just tie it to the back of the car and drag it around the neighborhood for a while.


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## willis7469

I truly wish I had any kind of reasonable solution for you. I haven't embraced a lot of the things your doing yet, so I've not researched, nor do I have much experience with them. Best of luck!
I'm still laughing my A off at your last comment. My wife thought I was possessed! Those sono's gotta be close. ???


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## Yves Smolders

Got the same problem. Seems to be dolby digital plus related. In stereo mode there is no delay. Got video ahead issue on Chromecast as well as on a Samsung BD player. Stereo? No problem!


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