# Looking for that fuller Home Theater sound



## Sean O (Nov 29, 2009)

I have not posted on here much but I read the wealth of information just about everyday. I have used these forums in order to build my ever growing (because we always strive for better) Home Theater.

Current set up:
B&Ws 683s Left and Right Front
B&W HTM61 Center
Klipsch Icon VB15 Surrounds (Picked them up from Best Buy for $100 dollars for the pair discontinued)
Elemental Designs A3-300 Newer LT.300 amp. No issues. Sub1
Klipsch SW450 Sub 2
Onkyo TX-NR809
PS3

The sound in 2ch stereo and 5.2 is better then anything I have ever had. The B&Ws are crystal clear and the bass is smooth and deep. That being said, I still feel like something is missing from that true theater sound that you get when at a movie theater. The only way I know how to describe it is a lack of "Fullness" to the audio. I have my cross overs set up to THX specs, 80hz. Many setups on this site have additional speakers in the front. I am wondering if this is what I am missing or something else. 

I apologize for being so vague, it is hard to describe. 

What would the community recommend I try or due?

(I have not Bi-Amped my B&Ws, will that make a difference?)


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

There can be a few causes to this, 
0ne: room acoustics
two: the possibility that because your surrounds are not matching to your mains and centre 
three: your sub placements are not ideal or the surround speaker placement is incorrect.
four: have you correctly run Audyssey? Mic placement is very important.
five: Because your subs are mis matched that can cause issues with the over all low end.

Bi Amping speakers rarely makes an audible difference.


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

+1 on the room acoustics. If you can make a sketch of your room and layout, post it on our Home Audio Acoustics forum. Lots of expertise there to help you sort things out, including ideas on how to make sure your subs are in the best place.

Even if you upgrade speakers later on, the room treatments will still be a big benefit.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

++1 to room acoustics. A properly treated room is half the battle.


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## iskra (Jan 30, 2012)

Acoustics for sure. I wouldn't bother with getting matched surrounds, makes for very little impact.

If you feel you need more depths, try some diffusers - ofcourse depending on your room and how far they will be from your listening position. You need abit of space between you and your diffusers, otherwise the sound will hit your ears at different times, which probably will cause a cluttered sound stage.

Otherwise, try to absorb and use the mirror method tp absorb the first reflexes and then try to dampen the room echo. 

I have quite a problem here, which is quite common. Ironically, the sweetspot is commonly the place where you get least bass. My sweetspot really lacks bass, which has a big, big, impact on the sound. Try reposistion the subwoofer. Do this by putting the woofer at the sweetspot, then just crawl around on the floor. Where you are most saticfied with the bass, thats where it should go.

If neither works, before investing in expensive electronics, try a few bass shakers ( shakers). I got Sinus Live Bass Shaker III (I believe they're called) driven my a very small and cheap stereo amp - Dynavox Spark II. You can drive them with just about anything, just go to a yard sale or fleemarket and get a cheap second hand one if you don't wanna buy a new one. I think my shakers goes down to about 30hz, if you want to get them even lower, you can mount weights (like gym weights) to get them even deeper. I have two in my 10 foot couch, and it's enough to almost move it.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

If you start considering diffusers, check out the diffuser video by real traps. Explains a lot. Best to have your listening position >4 ft from a diffuser.


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## trevorv (Oct 8, 2012)

In quality speakers Bi-amping and bi-wiring can make a huge difference. Remove the jumpers on the speakers and run two seperate lines. One for lows and one for highs. When you use those jumpers it transfers audio signal that could be going directly to your highs to your lows. If at all possible. I would run one amp to the highs and the other amp to the lows. Just my 2 cents.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

trevorv said:


> In quality speakers Bi-amping and bi-wiring can make a huge difference. Remove the jumpers on the speakers and run two seperate lines. One for lows and one for highs.
> When you use those jumpers it transfers audio signal that could be going directly to your highs to your lows.


Just snake oil 


> If at all possible. I would run one amp to the highs and the other amp to the lows. Just my 2 cents.


It can make a difference if done correctly, I know many people who have tried this including myself and it made no audible difference. Usually if it did this is just an indication that you did not have enough power to drive them in the first place or the wire AWG was to small.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Hey Sean O,

I’m going to assume that acoustics isn’t your issue, since you didn’t describe your concern as a problem with reverberation or echo, but a lack of “fullness” in the sound. When people who aren’t necessarily audio-technically-inclined use that term, what they typically mean is one of two things: 

1) The sound is kind of “thin” and lacking in lower midrange and /or upper bass. If on further listening you feel this is the case, then either your room is really large, or Audyssey has given you response that is too flat. You might need an increase in the frequencies mentioned. Information on your total listening area size (cu. ft., including any areas or rooms that might be open to the room where the system is) and a full-range REW measurement would be helpful.

2) They aren’t getting a full (read adequate) surround-sound experience. A primary difference between actual theaters and home theaters is that the former typically have optimal rear speaker placement. You didn’t give us any indication of your room layout or speaker placement, but IMO surround sound sounds better with when the speakers are behind the viewers. If not, at least make sure the rear speakers are far enough away so that you can’t easily localize them.

Regards, 
Wayne


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## trevorv (Oct 8, 2012)

Tonyvdb,

It is not snake oil, at least in my own experience. We install many high end HT's and 2 channel Tube systems. In just about every case the speakers produced much better bass and midrange with bi-wiring. The sound stage also opened up as well. With using quality speakers use quality cables and components. Some speaker crossover networks are designed to be bi-wired. I feel it would make a difference to his sound. 

A quote,

"There is no physical reason why bi-wiring should improve a speaker's sound."

I've heard this sentiment repeated over the years by some very reputable sources. So why do many respected manufacturers continue to build speakers with two separate sets of input terminals explicitly for that purpose (that is, connecting a loudspeaker to an amp or receiver using two pairs of wire rather than the usual one)? Bi-wiring doesn't increase the power going to the speakers - it just doubles the number of cables connected to them. So what's the point?

According to many audiophiles and speaker companies, the answer's simple: it's the sound.

I decided to see (or rather hear) for myself if there was anything to this bi-wiring. Starting with a pair of four-way floor-standing towers I have at home, I disconnected the metal jumpers that joined the two sets of positive and negative terminals on the back of each speaker. Then I hooked up my two matching pairs of speaker wires between the speakers and my receiver. Once connected, I fired up the system to hear the results.

I was impressed.

Bass definition had clearly ratcheted up a couple of notches. Individual bass notes were much easier to distinguish, and they seemed to have taken on a fuller and rounder tone. High frequencies also improved greatly. The somewhat harsh brightness that I had always attributed to my speaker's metal dome tweeters disappeared - replaced by a smoothness and warmth I hadn't thought them capable of.

I performed the same experiment on a pair of high-quality two-way bookshelf speakers that I own. The results were similar although a bit more subtle.

The bottom line - even though I can't explain exactly why, bi-wiring worked surprisingly well in my system. If you have speakers that are compatible with a bi-wired connection, I would highly recommend that you give it a try. Happy listening.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Sean O (Nov 29, 2009)

I hope that this helps.


LM Pic 1








LM Pic 2








LM Pic 3








LM Pic 4


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

For some reason your links didn’t show up, but here they are:


LM Pic 1
Image: http://s11.postimage.org/5rzz8yg9t/LM_Pic_1.jpg 
LM Pic 2
Image: http://s11.postimage.org/d996o65sx/LM_pic_2.jpg 
LM Pic 3
Image: http://s11.postimage.org/gu527each/LM_Pic_3.jpg 
LM Pic 4
Image: http://s11.postimage.org/80e5qandt/LM_Pic_4.jpg 

Image: http://s9.postimage.org/4mdzksyod/LM_Layout.jpg

I do see a couple of potential problems. The first is that you appear to have mismatched subwoofers that are poorly located. It’s a common situation that when people upgrade their sub, their thinking is that two subs are better than one. However as this post shows, mismatched subs can actually perform worse combined than one good sub optimally tuned and equalized for the room. 

Second, in most rooms the best sub performance – output and extension – is realized with the subwoofer in or near the corner. Often you get a response peak with corner placement, but its easily equalized.

The next thing that jumps at me is your rear speaker placement in relation to your seating. They are way too close; I’m sure you’re able to easily localize them. The sound would be much more enveloping if you move the sofa well away from the wall, and mount the speakers 6-7 ft. up on the wall and angle them towards the seating.

Regards, 
Wayne


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## Sean O (Nov 29, 2009)

OK. Thank you everyone for your help. I used a little bit of everyone's suggestions. I moved the couch up closer to the TV and raised up the speakers in the rear. I moved my ED sub into the back corner. I then changed the crossover. Everything used to be the THX 80. My sub now goes up to 120 and my mains go down to 60. I also had some extra speaker wire so I Bi-Amped my front speakers. After all of this I ran the calibration software in order to get the correct speaker distances.

Everything sounds much better now. I used a clip from Transformers to test the before and after the switch. Thank you again for your help.


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

trevorv said:


> Tonyvdb,
> 
> It is not snake oil, at least in my own experience. We install many high end HT's and 2 channel Tube systems. In just about every case the speakers produced much better bass and midrange with bi-wiring. The sound stage also opened up as well. With using quality speakers use quality cables and components. Some speaker crossover networks are designed to be bi-wired. I feel it would make a difference to his sound.
> 
> ...


If I was a betting man, I would bet that if you'd open up your bi ampable speakers that all 4 binding post would be all going to 1 wire (probably 18AWG) to a single passive crossover.


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## trevorv (Oct 8, 2012)

Tonydb, all I can tell you as that I've been to the Monitor Audio plant in China where there assembled and to England where they are designed and there are 2 crossover networks in the Silver, Gold, and Platinum series speakers. When I was a Dynaudio dealer I went to Denmark and they had up to 4 crossover networks in their higher end speakers. I can't speak for all brands but my guess is if they are a quality brand with bi-wiring capabilities it has at least 2 crossover networks. Some brands do not because of different philosophies. Monitor Audio and others don't sell speaker wire so what's the conspiracy theory behind bi-wiring, if they sold wire I could see the correlation, but since they don't what advantage do they have other than improving the sound?

Whole House Vantage Lighting, SONOS music system, Mozaex Blu-ray server 12TB. Theater Cary Audio Cinema 11a, Cary Audio Cinema 11v, Cary Audio Cinema 5, Monitor Audio GX300's, Monitor Audio GX350c, Monitor Audio GXFX, B&G Radia BGX-S12B x4, BG Radia BGX-A2 x2, Mozaex Blu-ray player, Furman IT-Reference 15i, Samsung 7000 series plasma, Screen Innovations Back Diamond Screen, JVC Pro projector. Listening Room BG Radia FS-420's, BG Radia BGX-S12A x4, BG Radia BGX-A2 x2, Cary Audio SLP98 tube pre-amp, Cary Audio CAD120SMKII power amplifier, Cary Audio Xciter DAC, Furman IT-Reference 15i


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

trevorv said:


> ...there are 2 crossover networks in the Silver, Gold, and Platinum series speakers. ...and they had up to 4 crossover networks in their higher end speakers....but my guess is if they are a quality brand with bi-wiring capabilities it has at least 2 crossover networks.


So where is the physical switch on the speakers that would be needed to switch between these different crossover networks?
The crossover network inside the speaker has no idea whether you are using the jumpers or if you are using 2 sets of wires.

***EDIT*** Or did I misunderstand the statement? 
At first reading I understood it to mean that there were several different networks inside the speaker that would be changed depending on whether the speaker is being bi-wired or not. Now I think I understand correctly that all the networks are being used all the time.


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