# Poured concrete Basement sound proofing advice needed



## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

I'm finishing a portion of my basement that will include a home theater. Before I learned anything about sound isolation or how far I wanted to take it, I rough framed the walls & installed and wired recessed lighting. I also installed and wired my electrical boxes and circuits. This was all done before I read about sound isolation techniques I'll want to incorporate to keep the sound from disturbing anyone (including the two dogs) who may occupy the floor above. Luckily I had time to read a bit when I had to take an unexpected break to have knee surgery. While I rehabbed, I decided I wanted to do this right the first time so I read up and learned that I'd need to decouple the already framed walls from the floor joists. I also learned that I should build a double wall to essentially decouple an existing wall enclosing my staircase into the basement. I also realized my idea to use an insulated and open slatted ceiling was out the window and that I'd likely need 2 layers of 5/8" drywall sandwiched with "green goo" to keep low frequency from transmitting. If my working knowledge is flawed, please correct me because based on what I've read (learned?), this is what I believe to be true so far.

Here are my questions;
I know I to have to decouple the top plate of my existing framed walls from the floor joists. Can I simply notch out enough room to wedge 1/2" rubber pads or rubber "U" channels at each contact point? Do the bottom plates of my existing walls need to be decoupled from the 4" poured concrete floor as well? I'm counting on that not being a problem since the concrete slab has about 12" of stone below that as well. Additionally, my foundation walls are 10" of poured concrete so once the framed walls are effectively decoupled from the joists above, will it still be necessary to use decoupling clips and or 2 layers of 5/8" drywall on the walls? Will I need outlet backer pads? What treatment is suggested to prevent heating duct work and cold air returns from transmitting sound and/or low frequency?

Lastly, will I need to build enclosure boxes for my recessed light cans? I've seen this recommended but if the ceiling and walls are already decoupled, how much is this going to affect the final isolation capabilities? Granted, the "weakest link" theory comes to mind so if this remains a critical link could I used Mass Loaded Vinyl and insulation instead of boxes? On that note, could I attach a layer of MLV (what weight?) directly to the floor joists above then use 1 sheet of drywall to achieve comparable results to 2 green goo sandwiched sheets of 5/8" drywall? Am I correct in assuming that whether I use MLV and one 5/8" sheet or 2 layers of green goo sandwiched drywall I will still need decoupling clips or a similar product for the ceiling? Lastly, what products are recommended and does anyone have suggestions as to who is the least expensive online source to purchase the recommended decoupling clips, rubber channels, green goo, MLV, etc?

I really need to get this project moving ASAP so any advice I can get from those who have conquered this ground before me, would be greatly appreciated to say the least.
Thanks in advance.
Mick


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## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

That's a lot to discuss in one post. I'll get the ball rolling by calling out a few basics. Yes for best results you should decouple your walls from the ceiling joists, although I'm not sure how you would do that once your walls have been built, other than by adding a new stud wall inside the existing ones. You do not need to decouple the walls from the floor. The simplest option at this point is probably to just put a clip and channel system on all walls and ceiling, and screw the two layers of drywall with green glue to that. That will provide decoupling to all those surfaces, eliminating the need to decouple the walls from the ceiling, or to make a double stud wall. It's not quite as effective as fully decoupled framing, but it's still very good and probably the most common decoupling method.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

If you hang the walls 1/2" short and tie them with DC-04 clips, the only places you'll need RSIC and channel is the ceiling. 

Any holes you cut in the room for cans or whatever need to be boxed. Or better yet, build soffits after the room is drywalled and put downlighting in there and uplighting in crown molding. That way you don't have any holes.

Put outlets in columns again built after the room is drywalled. Again, no holes.

Bryan


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

Thanks for getting things started guys. It looks like I'll be doing some re-work with my framing because the only way to decouple the existing walls is to start pulling studs one at a time and cutting them 1/2" shorter to accomodate the clips that Bryan suggested.

Thankfully, I used screws instead of nails so it won't be too bad. I was already thinking about switching to limited wall lighting to avoid having to box every can so as suggested, I may end up going with a soffit to use some of the cans. No matter what, it looks like I'll be removing all of my lighting. I'll also have to figure out how best to run/hide my rear speaker cables and HDMI's but that shouldn't be a big deal.

I expect I'll need to use DC-04's on the framing required to isolate the heating duct and cold air return runs but do I need to do anything to isolate the steel beams and support columns which are directly coupled to the floor joists above?
Thanks again Guys.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Just box around posts and beams but hang the boxing from clips/channel on the ceiling. 

Cabling can also be routed in the soffits and dropped down into columns for surrounds.

Bryan


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

First, a belated thanks to Bryan for his last post. That being said, I've spent the past couple of weeks or so looking into decoupling clips for the ceiling and was hoping for a few expert opinions to either backup or debunk my findings. It looks like the Pliteq GenieClip and Green Glue's Whisper Clip are both good options. Does anyone have experience with either? The GenieClip looks to have a better design to me but they have almost identical STC ratings. I'd like to keep as much low frequency as possible in the basement so is either one better than the other in that regard or should I be looking at another product altogether? As always, any help is greatly appreciated.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

I used the Whisper Clips. I guess the best thing I can say about doing clips / channel and 2 layers is that I had to install an intercom so that my wife could get my attention as yelling from the top of the stairs was not working. :bigsmile:


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## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

Ted White at the Soundproofing company told me if he were to build a home theater again he would use the cheap IB-1 clips because they are cheap and the difference between them and any other clip is hardly noticeable. I don't know how much the more expensive ones are but IB-1s are $2 each. The fact that I had just spent a third of my budget on moving my furnace and ducts surely entered into my decision, but generally when Ted speaks, it's best to listen.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

Lots of good info on HTS so processing it all is a chore but it sounds like a floating joist system will give me the most low frequency transmission loss and at a lower cost than resilient clips and channel. I've looked all over for a video, sketches or a step by step instructions on how to construct a floating joists system. Anyone know of a good source where I can see detailed pics, videos, instructions, etc?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Separate joists can work well. To really get the benefit totally, you would want to isolate the walls from the joists using something like the DC-04 clips. Whether or not you can actually do it depends on orientation of floor joists, any beams in the way, HVAC, plumbing, and electrical in the joist cavities that might cause an issue, etc.

If none of those are problems, you simply set new joists on top of your walls between the other ones and bracket them into place. They do not need to be as thick since they are carrying a dead load rather than a live one that the floor above would have to. Still, you want to watch the span rating.

Bryan


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

bpape said:


> Separate joists can work well. To really get the benefit totally, you would want to isolate the walls from the joists using something like the DC-04 clips. Whether or not you can actually do it depends on orientation of floor joists, any beams in the way, HVAC, plumbing, and electrical in the joist cavities that might cause an issue, etc.
> 
> If none of those are problems, you simply set new joists on top of your walls between the other ones and bracket them into place. They do not need to be as thick since they are carrying a dead load rather than a live one that the floor above would have to. Still, you want to watch the span rating.
> 
> Bryan


I have a lot going on in this area. Heating runs, cold air returns, Gas lines and steel support beam. I need to see if I can work all around all of these obstacles.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

After reading some of your posts, my construction plans have evolved a bit. Here's where I'm at:
If I hadn't mentioned it before, my room is approximately 27' x 17'. I framed all of my walls and wired all of my outlets and light cans before discovering the world of soundproofing. It was a blessing in disguise when I had to put construction on hold for the last year because it allowed me to educate myself. I've learned quite a bit since that time thanks to many of you here at the HTS. Now I need to find out if the experts who have been kind enough share their knowledge with me feel that I'm ready to start buying supplies or whether I need to tweak my plans further.

Up until a few days ago I considered using resilient clips and channel to hang the drywall from the existing floor joists but when it came to my attention that this may not be the best option for subwoofer low frequencies, I wanted to address that. Some of your suggestions and other information I came across suggested that using the rwar and floating joists combo is not only far less expensive but much more effective for low frequency which is my main concern. That being said, I'm now considering rwar and floating ceiling joists to decouple and maximize my ability to isolate the lowest frequencies from the living area directly above the home theater. It was suggested that I need not double the two walls in front of the 10" poured concrete walls as long as I use IB3 or similar isolation clips every 4 feet to decouple these single walls from the floor joists. Because it will require far less clips (and contact points) than it would to hang resilient clips and channel, I'm thinking less is better here.

I have the lion's share of my HVAC runs in this area. Should I wrap them with an acoustic mat or MLV product before enclosing them? I know I'll need boxes for my light cans which can also be mounted with IB3's and I'll use putty pads for the outlet boxes. I'll insulate between the ceiling joists and walls. I understand that 2 layers of 5/8 gypsum and green glue is typically used but with the use of floating joists is there really much additional gain using a 2nd layer of 5/8" or 1/2" sandwiched with green glue? 

Lastly, I happen to have some full sheets of 1/2 OSB on hand and was wondering if they are better or worse than gypsum for sound transmission? I was thinking of using them on the backside of a few walls facing into the unfinished part of the basement instead of gypsum just to use them up. Any thoughts?

I need to get back to the construction phase ASAP but want to make sure I'm not missing anything before I begin. I have a second chance to get it right because nothing I've already done is too difficult to rework. I won't have that luxury again so please weigh in with your thoughts.
Thank you.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

A really impressive plan, it will be fascinating to watch and learn.:sn:


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

AudiocRaver said:


> A really impressive plan, it will be fascinating to watch and learn.:sn:


:sweat:The pressure is on. Now I'll have to snap a few pics as I go. lol


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## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

mtrunz said:


> It was suggested that I need not double the two walls in front of the 10" poured concrete walls as long as I use IB3 or similar isolation clips every 4 feet to decouple these single walls from the floor joists.





mtrunz said:


> I understand that 2 layers of 5/8 gypsum and green glue is typically used but with the use of floating joists is there really much additional gain using a 2nd layer of 5/8" or 1/2" sandwiched with green glue?


There are four elements of soundproofing: Decoupling, Absorption, Mass and Damping. Clips or floating joists for the ceiling, and IB3 clips on exterior walls introduces decoupling. Two layers of drywall and green glue introduce mass and damping. Take a look at this for the ceiling and this for the foundation walls.

What the foundation walls article doesn't talk about is a "compromise solution" which I worked with Ted to come up with to avoid adding cost and width to my foundation walls. I'm going to be using a soffit to plug the gap behind the drywall on the foundation walls like this:




mtrunz said:


> Lastly, I happen to have some full sheets of 1/2 OSB on hand and was wondering if they are better or worse than gypsum for sound transmission? I was thinking of using them on the backside of a few walls facing into the unfinished part of the basement instead of gypsum just to use them up. Any thoughts?


A lot of people use OSB as their first layer, behind the drywall. ALMFamily will likely chime in here, he did the first layer in his entire room with OSB. The one thing to keep in mind though is that you won't be able to use 1/2" OSB and 5/8" drywall side by side. You'll either need to do the first layer of an entire wall or ceiling in OSB, or use 1/2" drywall beside it.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

MrAngles said:


> A lot of people use OSB as their first layer, behind the drywall. ALMFamily will likely chime in here, he did the first layer in his entire room with OSB. The one thing to keep in mind though is that you won't be able to use 1/2" OSB and 5/8" drywall side by side. You'll either need to do the first layer of an entire wall or ceiling in OSB, or use 1/2" drywall beside it.


After talking with John at TSC, he suggested OSB or drywall would work fine for the first layer as they have pretty much the same STC rating. I chose OSB since I knew I would be screwing furring strips to the walls to allow for acoustic treatment on the wall covered by cloth and the OSB would hold much better than the drywall. Plus, should I chose to put anything else on the walls, I know I do not have to use anchors as I have the OSB back there to hold up.

That said, I would not use 1/2" OSB if you choose to do it. Using 5/8" OSB and drywall will provide much more mass and damping than the 1/2". You can always use the 1/2" to contruct the inner framing of your columns if you wanted.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

MrAngles said:


> There are four elements of soundproofing: Decoupling, Absorption, Mass and Damping. Clips or floating joists for the ceiling, and IB3 clips on exterior walls introduces decoupling. Two layers of drywall and green glue introduce mass and damping. Take a look at this for the ceiling and this for the foundation walls.


Thanks for the reply. I have looked at the Soundproofing Company website and read their tutorials. The information on the site is great but doesn't answer all of my questions. I was especially hoping someone could reply as to whether I need to apply MLV over the HVAC runs before I drywall.
Any thoughts?


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

I assume you are enclosing them with a soffit stuffed with insulation and wrapped with double layer? Also, are they swapped over to flex duct?

If so, you should be good to go - that is how I did mine and I do not hear a peep from them.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

ALMFamily said:


> I assume you are enclosing them with a soffit stuffed with insulation and wrapped with double layer? Also, are they swapped over to flex duct?
> 
> If so, you should be good to go - that is how I did mine and I do not hear a peep from them.


I'm still in the planning and supply ordering stage so I haven't done anything with the ducts yet. I was just thinking about swapping out the rigid for flex but I'll lose the damper doors if I do. Probably not a big deal as the two that would be lost are open all the way. Yes there will be an insulated soffit. Did you swap out just the round branch ducts for flex or the main trunk too? I don't want to get into swapping out the main trunk. What did you mean when you said you wrapped with double layer? Double layer of insulation on the duct work? Did you use any MLV at all?


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

mtrunz said:


> I'm still in the planning and supply ordering stage so I haven't done anything with the ducts yet. I was just thinking about swapping out the rigid for flex but I'll lose the damper doors if I do. Probably not a big deal as the two that would be lost are open all the way. Yes there will be an insulated soffit. Did you swap out just the round branch ducts for flex or the main trunk too? I don't want to get into swapping out the main trunk. What did you mean when you said you wrapped with double layer? Double layer of insulation on the duct work? Did you use any MLV at all?


I just swapped out the branch ducts that ran through the room. I started the swap where it branched from the main trunk.

Apologies - I meant I put an OSB and drywall layer on the soffits that enclose the HVAC. The only MLV I used was over the false soffits to make them useable for low end absorption and the rear wall to keep the surrounds lively.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

Hi ALM,
I definitely plan to double up on the drywall with green glue in between for the soffits. I have 2 duct branches that would need to be replaced. I'm not exactly sure what options are available for flexible ducting so I guess the next question is what did you use? Something similar to flexible dryer vent from the local Depot or were they insulated? Thanks.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Here is an example of what I used:

http://www.menards.com/main/heating...ted-duct-black-jacket-r8/p-1754597-c-9503.htm


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## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

mtrunz said:


> Thanks for the reply. I have looked at the Soundproofing Company website and read their tutorials. The information on the site is great but doesn't answer all of my questions. I was especially hoping someone could reply as to whether I need to apply MLV over the HVAC runs before I drywall.
> Any thoughts?


In my discussions with Ted and John at the soundproofing company this is what I got:

As long as the ceiling is decoupled double drywall, fiberglass insulation is put in between the joists, and the ducts aren't touching the drywall or channels that the drywall is attached to, ducts that run through the theater ceiling but do not actually vent into the theater will be fine with standard rigid duct. The mass, damping and absorption of that system will keep any sound from entering the ducts to any degree that would be a concern.

For ducts that vent into the room, insulated flex duct like ALM linked to is helpful in that you can introduce bends into it which diffuses any sound that may travel through the duct into the HVAC system and into the rest of the house. In addition to that though, you need to keep sound from going through the vent and right through the side of the duct into the wall or floor of the neighboring room, and for that you need a soffit muffler, where you basically enclose the duct on all sides with double drywall and green glue and fill it with insulation. Here's an article that illustrates how it works. It also talks about a dead vent, which is more complicated, but is another option to use, depending on the situation.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

MrAngles said:


> In my discussions with Ted and John at the soundproofing company this is what I got:
> 
> As long as the ceiling is decoupled double drywall, fiberglass insulation is put in between the joists, and the ducts aren't touching the drywall or channels that the drywall is attached to, ducts that run through the theater ceiling but do not actually vent into the theater will be fine with standard rigid duct. The mass, damping and absorption of that system will keep any sound from entering the ducts to any degree that would be a concern.
> 
> For ducts that vent into the room, insulated flex duct like ALM linked to is helpful in that you can introduce bends into it which diffuses any sound that may travel through the duct into the HVAC system and into the rest of the house. In addition to that though, you need to keep sound from going through the vent and right through the side of the duct into the wall or floor of the neighboring room, and for that you need a soffit muffler, where you basically enclose the duct on all sides with double drywall and green glue and fill it with insulation. Here's an article that illustrates how it works. It also talks about a dead vent, which is more complicated, but is another option to use, depending on the situation.


Great point - in my room, I did not have any vents open to the HVAC. I swapped to flex just because I figured as long as the ceiling was open to start, I may as well switch it over to eliminate the potential noise transference and give me a little piece of mind.

If you have them venting in the room, I would do it exactly as MrA described.


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## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

ALMFamily said:


> Great point - in my room, I did not have any vents open to the HVAC. I swapped to flex just because I figured as long as the ceiling was open to start, I may as well switch it over to eliminate the potential noise transference and give me a little piece of mind.
> 
> If you have them venting in the room, I would do it exactly as MrA described.


I will say that flex duct seems to be better in general. Rigid duct can make a creaking noise when you walk above it, and makes a whistling sound when air goes through it that is highly annoying to me.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Plus, it is cheap and easy to do yourself. Low cost option to give you some piece of mind - well worth the investment IMO.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

Thanks Mr A. I do need to add a short heating duct from an existing main branch stub outside the isolated room. It's almost a straight shot down at a length of about 8 feet to a register I'll add to the bottom of the back wall inside the isolated room. The entire main trunk that this branch comes off of is outside the room so it sounds like using insulated duct for this run with bends incorporated should suffice.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

MrAngles said:


> I will say that flex duct seems to be better in general. Rigid duct can make a creaking noise when you walk above it, and makes a whistling sound when air goes through it that is highly annoying to me.


Agreed. I'll probably replace the other two runs inside the isolated room as ALM suggested. One of the diverters makes a rattling noise that transmits into the upstairs living room so I won't miss that sound when it's gone.


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## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

mtrunz said:


> Thanks Mr A. I do need to add a short heating duct from an existing main branch stub outside the isolated room. It's almost a straight shot down at a length of about 8 feet to a register I'll add to the bottom of the back wall inside the isolated room. The entire main trunk that this branch comes off of is outside the room so it sounds like using insulated duct for this run with bends incorporated should suffice.


Your supply vent will be near the floor? Are you going to do double drywall on both the theater side and the outside of the wall?


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

MrAngles said:


> Your supply vent will be near the floor? Are you going to do double drywall on both the theater side and the outside of the wall?


It will be a double wall with the theater wall decoupled from the outermost (unfinished room side) wall.


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## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

mtrunz said:


> It will be a double wall with the theater wall decoupled from the outermost (unfinished room side) wall.


If the supply vent is going near the floor in a double wall, I think the only thing you need to make sure of is that the ducting doesn't touch the outer wall framing or sheetrock, in order to keep it decoupled. My supply vents will be in the ceiling, and I'm putting the return vent near the floor, in the wall shared by the mechanical room. I have double stud walls as well, but most likely I'll have flex duct go straight through the wall and into a muffler in the mechanical room that goes from floor to ceiling, kind of like a dead vent, but it will tie into the HVAC return at the top so it won't need an inline fan.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

MrAngles said:


> If the supply vent is going near the floor in a double wall, I think the only thing you need to make sure of is that the ducting doesn't touch the outer wall framing or sheetrock, in order to keep it decoupled.


Angles,
I'll use insulated flex vent with a couple of bends and that should suffice. I recently made contact with the man himself (Ted White) and he feels the floating joist system is best forgotten in lieu of the clip and channel method for the ceiling. I was surprised to hear him say that a floating joist system would be a much bigger expense than using clips and channel until he explained. He said that without a floor to load and stabilize the floating 2 x 8's, there would most likely be warping of the joists which would wreak havoc on the drywall ceiling over time even if I were to cross brace them.

He suggested that using engineered wood I beams will eliminate warping but they are pricy so that's where the increased expense comes in. He also told me that a floating ceiling will not be a significant enough upgrade in soundproofing to warrant using the wood I beams unless money is not a factor. Since it is a factor for me, I'll price everything out but it's most likely that I'll and go back to the clip and channel method to decouple the ceiling. Now I have to find the free time to price out my supplies........


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## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

Ah, yeah I-beams are more expensive. I always wondered also how you put insulation in between the joists without touching both the existing joists and the new joists and allowing transfer between the two.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

The insulation is flexible enough that it won't transfer vibrations.

Bryan


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

bpape said:


> The insulation is flexible enough that it won't transfer vibrations.
> 
> Bryan


You beat me to the punch Bryan!


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

For anyone watching this thread in anticipation of pics and posts about my project to help with your own, I apologize for the delay. I have not been in the best of health this past month or so and unfortunately haven't been able to proceed with my project. I hope to resume as soon as possible and will certainly post anything new that I learn in the interim. I'll do my best to document my work and post pics once I'm able to but it may be a few weeks or more before I'm able to resume work.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Hope you are on the mend mate - updates can wait. Just get better!


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

ALMFamily said:


> Hope you are on the mend mate - updates can wait. Just get better!


That's the plan. Thanks for the kind words.


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## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

mtrunz said:


> For anyone watching this thread in anticipation of pics and posts about my project to help with your own, I apologize for the delay. I have not been in the best of health this past month or so and unfortunately haven't been able to proceed with my project. I hope to resume as soon as possible and will certainly post anything new that I learn in the interim. I'll do my best to document my work and post pics once I'm able to but it may be a few weeks or more before I'm able to resume work.


Sorry to hear that. I've learned the hard way many times (or maybe haven't actually learned at all) that it's better to relax and allow yourself to recover rather than keep working and drag an illness out for months.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

MrAngles said:


> Sorry to hear that. I've learned the hard way many times (or maybe haven't actually learned at all) that it's better to relax and allow yourself to recover rather than keep working and drag an illness out for months.


Hi Angles,
I'm learning that lesson as well. Just lost my job Friday so I thought I'd have plenty of time to hit the build but nothing ever works out the way we plan. The work will be there when I'm ready so it will get done eventually.
Thanks.


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## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

mtrunz said:


> Hi Angles,
> I'm learning that lesson as well. Just lost my job Friday so I thought I'd have plenty of time to hit the build but nothing ever works out the way we plan. The work will be there when I'm ready so it will get done eventually.
> Thanks.


 Last time I got laid off I tore out the overgrowth in the back yard, built a deck and got a ton of stuff done inside the house. Get well soon and best of luck on the job front.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

MrAngles said:


> Last time I got laid off I tore out the overgrowth in the back yard, built a deck and got a ton of stuff done inside the house. Get well soon and best of luck on the job front.


Yes it does my friend. My job loss is a direct result of our fine Government's failure to agree on meaningful budget cuts. When you read that the mandatory cuts that kicked in last week won't effect jobs right away, you'll know how full of manure they are. Anyway, many people have it worse than I do so I'm looking on the bright side in that it will allow me the time to heal then work on my basement at some point. All I can say is I'm getting too old for this finding a new job stuff.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

I'm finally feeling up to getting to work on the home theater but I have a long list of things to do. First, I have to de-construct some of the framing I built before I decided to decouple and isolate the room. It's going to be slow going in the beginning just to get the current framing decoupled. Some re-wiring will be required and all of my recessed light cans are coming out in favor of wall lights. I won't be up to spending long days on the project after just getting over being sick but hopefully, it won't be long before I can begin to make some real progress.

Anyway, I'm waiting to take delivery of the 150 PAC RSIC-1 clips I bought from an ebay user who was selling what he over ordered and didn't use. Great deal at just under 3.00 each. I still have to order 90 degree Genie brackets so I can decouple my framing from the floor joists as well as the resilient channel to hang my ceiling from. I will need to buy green glue to sandwich the ceiling layers and though I have 3 tubes of sealant (also unused ebay leftovers), I'm sure I'll need more of that as well. Last but not least will be more lumber and of course, all the drywall and insulation. The budget is tight since I lost my job so if anyone ordered too much of something on my list and would like to sell it at a discount feel free to PM me. 

The sad thing is that after the construction is done I won't have enough cash left to buy my remaining components which will include a 65" flat screen, at least one sub woofer and either all new components for 3 pair of 25 year old ESS AMT (Heil) speakers and a new center. I could buy new mains, center, front uppers and rears but the rebuilds will be more cost effective. All I can say is I'll cross that bridge when I get to it and hopefully I'll be back to work by then. For now, I'm content to finally get started. I'll do my best to report my progress once I start making some headway and I'll try to post pics as I move forward.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Glad to hear you are feeling better mate....

I am not sure where you are located, but I was able to find res channel locally which was much cheaper. Fortunately, I have a truck and was able to haul it myself.

When I priced lumber, I found Menards to be the cheapest, but I do not know if you have those out your way. You just have to be willing to sift through the pile a bit to find some decent boards.

Not sure if you are aware, but IIRC The Soundproofing Company does a 15% discount on orders that are phoned in - and I believe it applies to GG and sealant too....


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

ALMFamily said:


> Glad to hear you are feeling better mate....
> 
> I am not sure where you are located, but I was able to find res channel locally which was much cheaper. Fortunately, I have a truck and was able to haul it myself.
> 
> ...


I'm just outside of Niagara Falls, NY. We have no Menards here but I have a small lumber yard around the corner who delivers for free. They give me a neighborly discount which normally translates to the best price in town. Their lumber is always as good as if I hand selected it myself so I think I'm good on the lumber and drywall but I'll have to see if anyone carries the channel locally. I knew the Soundproofing Company (SC) offered quantity discounts but didn't know they do 15% for phone orders so thanks for the tip. Ted from the SC was kind enough to reply to my emails and answer some questions so I'd like to throw them my business.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

It appears that the great deal I got on the PAC RSIC-1 clips may be short lived. I chatted with a rep at Sound Isolation Company yesterday who told me that the Genieclip is 50% more effective for low frequency isolation than the RSIC-1. If this is true then I'll sell the lot of PAC clips when they arrive then bite the bullet and buy the more expensive Genieclips. I'm waiting to hear back from Ted White to tell me if the Genies are really 50% more effective. Just when I think I know exactly what supplies I need, I get a curve ball. Only one chance to do it right so I'll be patient and keep my eye on the prize. :dontknow:


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

OK. For starters, when you ask Ted White for advice, try not to confuse his company with one of his competitors like I did. Talk about feeling like an idiot......

Luckily, after he kindly informed me of my error, Ted was more than gracious and once again set me straight on how to proceed. His valued opinion was that using the Genie or Whisper clip instead of the PAC RSIC-1 clips I already have is certainly not value added since mass trumps the type of rubber used in your isolation clip.

In a nutshell, the customer service rep I spoke with from one of Ted's competitors may have been embellishing just a bit when he claimed the Genie clip would provide 50% more low frequency isolation than the RSIC-1 clips. Technically speaking, it may or may not be a better performing clip but I learned that since the type of rubber used in the isolation compound is virtually insignificant, it doesn't add much if any actual performance gain to the final isolation system. 

What does this mean to those doing research for their own sound isolation project? I'd answer that by saying my own journey to do the same illustrates the need to take your time learning which isolation system components will truly benefit your particular build rather than falling for a sales pitch or buying the most expensive components. And most importantly, when getting advice from Ted, do as he suggests. He's one of the good guys and his advice is all about the science of sound isolation. It has nothing to do with making a profit. Well, that's what I learned and I hope that documenting my build will help the next person who is looking to do the same.

The bottom line for me is that after all the setbacks this past year, the delays are now behind me and I'm finally ready to order my supplies and get to work. A big thank you to Ted and several HTS members who not only encouraged me to move forward but who gave me some great advice to help me get to this point. I can't wait to get my supplies and get started. I just hope to have some cash left for electronics after the build. :spend:


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

The decoupling clips I ordered from the Soundproofing Company came in this past week along with several pdf manuals that I took the weekend to read through. Ted and John are super guys to deal with and the manuals they included will be invaluable to my build. I need to spend an afternoon moving out the stuff that has accumulated in my work area and then it's time to get to work on my build before the ground dries up enough to force me into yard work mode.

Mr. Angles build thread got me thinking about investigating the use of a projector as opposed to the Panny 65" Z series plasma I had planned to buy. I fully expect to be up late many nights researching this but so far the JVC DLA-X55R looks like a great option if it weren't for the expense. I might have to start playing the lottery or start selling off some stuff on ebay before I can even consider it. If anyone has suggestions about similar quality projectors feel free to chime in.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Any idea of a rough budget if you do decide to go the projector route?


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

That's a tricky question ALM. It really depends how much cash is left after my build but that's the catch 22 because I'd like to know which way to go before I finish the build but in all reality I'll probably accommodate both options during construction so I'm covered for any future changes.

Back to your original question; Since I'm currently unemployed the growth rate of my HT fund is at zero. The Panny plasma I was anticipating is probably going to be in the $3,000.00 range so to keep it in that range it looks like the favorites are the Epson 5020, Sony VPL-HW50ES or the Panasonic PT-AE8000. In all honesty I'd rather be a level up from those models which I've only just begun to explore. One early contender that I might be able to justify breaking my budget for is the JVC DLA-X55R but at around $4,500.00 I'm pushing it really hard. I'd probably have to be back to work and hope to catch it on sale. There may be others that perform as well or better than the JVC for less but like I said, I have only begun to explore those models. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

mtrunz said:


> That's a tricky question ALM. It really depends how much cash is left after my build but that's the catch 22 because I'd like to know which way to go before I finish the build but in all reality I'll probably accommodate both options during construction so I'm covered for any future changes.
> 
> Back to your original question; Since I'm currently unemployed the growth rate of my HT fund is at zero. The Panny plasma I was anticipating is probably going to be in the $3,000.00 range so to keep it in that range it looks like the favorites are the Epson 5020, Sony VPL-HW50ES or the Panasonic PT-AE8000. In all honesty I'd rather be a level up from those models which I've only just begun to explore. One early contender that I might be able to justify breaking my budget for is the JVC DLA-X55R but at around $4,500.00 I'm pushing it really hard. I'd probably have to be back to work and hope to catch it on sale. There may be others that perform as well or better than the JVC for less but like I said, I have only begun to explore those models. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts.


As a Panny 7000 owner, I can tell you that it presents a fantastic picture IMO. As an added plus, the auto format swapping is very handy. I can only guess that the 8000 would be better. There are a couple people here who have purchased that model that have both spoke glowingly of it.

That said, it is my first projector so I have not seen a JVC or Sony yet - and I know JJ always speaks well of those two lines. When I attended AXPONA, one of the seminars used a JVC for projection and I must admit, the picture was stunning and I am certain that was right out of the box. Of course, it was a $12,000 unit... :bigsmile:

Perhaps a used / refurb model of the X55R might be closer to your target...


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

I know it is hard to find a place to view those units - perhaps putting a feeler out to the community to see who in your area might have one of those units that you could swing by for a visit. Too bad you are in NY - you would be more than welcome to check mine out.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

ALMFamily said:


> As a Panny 7000 owner, I can tell you that it presents a fantastic picture IMO. As an added plus, the auto format swapping is very handy. I can only guess that the 8000 would be better. There are a couple people here who have purchased that model that have both spoke glowingly of it.
> 
> Perhaps a used / refurb model of the X55R might be closer to your target...


I know Angles has the Panny 8000 and seems to be very happy with it. The pics he posted on his build look awesome which is what made me decide to explore projectors in the first place. It's certainly a very good performer. With auto swapping and some other nice features it's a great value. I'm sure I'd be happy with it but since there are very few projectors I can see in person before ordering, I analyze these things to death and when you start comparing reviews and see the black levels in that price range are very good but not great, it makes me want to jump up a level. I agree with you that looking at refurbs may be the ticket if I were to jump in.


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## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

I didn't do a lot of research when I got mine, I wasn't going to spend more than $3k, ALM recommended the 8000 and I'm a fan of Panasonic in general, so when I read that that it had around the best black levels in the price range and lens memory for constant image height, I was sold. I'm sure the X55R has a better image, but I would doubt (without any experience to back it up) that the picture is 50% better, justifying the price difference.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

I know Luther has one as well and has posted some pics. Sonnie also has one. Have you checked out the owner's thread for the 8000?


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

MrAngles said:


> I didn't do a lot of research when I got mine, I wasn't going to spend more than $3k, ALM recommended the 8000 and I'm a fan of Panasonic in general, so when I read that that it had around the best black levels in the price range and lens memory for constant image height, I was sold. I'm sure the X55R has a better image, but I would doubt (without any experience to back it up) that the picture is 50% better, justifying the price difference.


I'm sure you're right about the quality vs price and I too am a huge Panasonic fan so based on the ratio of performance vs value that it represents, the 8000 is a strong contender for sure. One projector I've already crossed off the list is the Sony 4K model. The picture is reportedly phenomenal but at over $20k, I've decided not to take out a 2nd mortgage to buy one. :rofl2: 

On a more serious note, my usual research process is to identify and compare contenders before I rationalize. Rationalizing is always the final stage where I come to my senses before laying out the cash. Sometimes I go for what I want instead of what is most practical but either way, I'm always hopeful that there's a deal out there waiting to help sway me in one direction or the other.

The reality of the situation as it stands today is that once my build is completed, I won't have enough cash left to buy the rest of my electronics right away. I already have my receiver and speakers but I'll have to choose between a sub and a TV/projector then save for the other so I could actually end up with a blank wall where the TV/projector belongs until I get back to work but I'm in denial for now so I'll keep exploring. Woesrt case, I can always listen to some tunes and make shadow puppets on that big, blank wall.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

I probably missed it, but what speakers are you using? I would be tempted to go video first and run the L/R full range.


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## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

ALMFamily said:


> I probably missed it, but what speakers are you using? I would be tempted to go video first and run the L/R full range.


Either that or borrow a tv from somewhere else in the house. At one time I had a 20" tv sitting on top of a center channel that was wider and half as tall as it. It was still impressive, but in an entirely different way than a large projection screen is.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

MrAngles said:


> Either that or borrow a tv from somewhere else in the house. At one time I had a 20" tv sitting on top of a center channel that was wider and half as tall as it. It was still impressive, but in an entirely different way than a large projection screen is.


What, you guys don't like my shadow puppet idea? Well, I do have a 32" CRT (no HDMI) the kids used to use for video games that I could revive. It would be sad but possible.

ALM,
I don't think I ever mentioned what speakers I'll be using. I used to have a home based audio/video store back in the 80's and I was an authorized distributor for ESS speakers. I have a pair of AMT-1D's for my fronts. Each has a massive top mounted Heil transformer that still produce some of the finest, open and crystal clear sounding mids and highs I've heard in addition to the 12" woofer and rear firing passive radiator. They're never going to perform in anywhere near the same neighborhood as the SVS sub I plan to buy but they'd hold their own in the bass department for awhile if I had to wait on a sub.

My front uppers and rears consist of 2 pair of ESS PS-820's which use a smaller Heil transformer and an 8" woofer/rear firing passive radiator combo. Since these are all vintage 80's speakers I've budgeted to replace all the drivers, passive radiators, crossovers and Heil diaphragms so they sound like new. The cost to do this is money well spent since replacing them with something of similar quality would easily cost thousands. I'll still need an ESS center channel to match the others but I do have a Boston Acoustics center that can be temporarily pressed into service if need be. The speakers will all be driven by an Integra 80.2 A/V receiver. 

I do have options that would allow me to put together a makeshift HT until all the pieces fall into place so I won't really need to make shadow puppets unless I want to. I hope that if I'm wise with my budget I might be able to pull off a TV or projector then just wait on the sub. Maybe I'll be able to catch a deal on a return or scratch and dent model from SVS before too long. Ironically, the reason I decided to spend all this time, money and effort on the soundproofing was so I could get that killer sub but who plans to get laid off from your job? It would really stink to have to wait but keeping things in perspective, there are far worse things to endure than waiting to complete a home theater. I'm just happy I have my health back and can finally begin putting this room together.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

mtrunz said:


> What, you guys don't like my shadow puppet idea? Well, I do have a 32" CRT (no HDMI) the kids used to use for video games that I could revive. It would be sad but possible.
> 
> ALM,
> I don't think I ever mentioned what speakers I'll be using. I used to have a home based audio/video store back in the 80's and I was an authorized distributor for ESS speakers. I have a pair of AMT-1D's for my fronts. Each has a massive top mounted Heil transformer that still produce some of the finest, open and crystal clear sounding mids and highs I've heard in addition to the 12" woofer and rear firing passive radiator. They're never going to perform in anywhere near the same neighborhood as the SVS sub I plan to buy but they'd hold their own in the bass department for awhile if I had to wait on a sub.
> ...


Oh, I was a big supporter of the shadow puppet idea! 

Who knows - when you get into the market for a sub, I might be in the middle of building one to replace my PB-13 Ultras! :bigsmile:


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

ALMFamily said:


> Oh, I was a big supporter of the shadow puppet idea!
> 
> Who knows - when you get into the market for a sub, I might be in the middle of building one to replace my PB-13 Ultras! :bigsmile:


Ha! I knew I wasn't the only shadow puppeteer out there! Did you say PB 13 Ultra's as in more than one? I hope you're not toying with me. I'd settle for one but man, I'd LOVE to have a pair. Keep me in mind if you decide to sell. :thumb:


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

mtrunz said:


> Ha! I knew I wasn't the only shadow puppeteer out there! Did you say PB 13 Ultra's as in more than one? I hope you're not toying with me. I'd settle for one but man, I'd LOVE to have a pair. Keep me in mind if you decide to sell. :thumb:


I have a desire to build a sub similar to the one just completed in the DIY forums - it looks like a long table and has 4 drivers in it. Of course, I have never built one but really have a desire to give it a try.

Right now, I am running 2 PB-13 Ultras and a PSA XS30 in the HT - but, if I do the build, the PB-13s at the very least will need to be moved.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

ALMFamily said:


> I have a desire to build a sub similar to the one just completed in the DIY forums - it looks like a long table and has 4 drivers in it. Of course, I have never built one but really have a desire to give it a try.
> 
> Right now, I am running 2 PB-13 Ultras and a PSA XS30 in the HT - but, if I do the build, the PB-13s at the very least will need to be moved.


I glanced at the massive DIY sub build. It looks like a cool project. So if you're using 3 subs, you have to have a huge room.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

mtrunz said:


> I glanced at the massive DIY sub build. It looks like a cool project. So if you're using 3 subs, you have to have a huge room.


My room is probably about average size - 14x19x7.5...


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

ALMFamily said:


> My room is probably about average size - 14x19x7.5...


Wow, that's a lot of SPL for one room! You da MAN. What's the rest of your system like?


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Right now, I am running:

Salk Songtowers with QWT tweeters
Salk SongCenter
Salk SongSurround I (4)
Emotiva XPA-5
Denon 4520ci AVR
Aragon Palladium Monoblocks (2)
OPPO 93
Panasonic AE-7000U
Yamaha YDP2006 (2)

I have been continuing to audition speakers - the Songtowers were a deal I could not pass up that I figured I could get my investment back out of. I am going to take a listen to some JTR speakers in the next week or so.....

Been happy with the system so far!


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

ALMFamily said:


> Right now, I am running:
> 
> Salk Songtowers with QWT tweeters
> Salk SongCenter
> ...


That's one sweet system. NICE!


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

I'm sorry for the delay in updating my build but it's been a rough couple of weeks. It's like someone doesn't want to me make any headway on the project. In the last 18 months, we lost my wife's dad and sister, I needed to have ACL reconstruction surgery, had a severe bout of diverticulitis then lost my job. Just as I got back to work on the HT build, my sister got sick and ended up in ICU. She passed away Sunday. Not only was she a great person and best big sis ever, she was one of my best friends in the world. I'm beginning to wonder if my build is cursed.

I don't want to dwell on my loss but wanted to apologize for yet another delay if anyone is looking for a progress report. I don't know how long before I'll get back to it again. Hopefully it won't be too long because the build will be great therapy. All I can say is give me a couple weeks then keep checking back.


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## MrAngles (May 1, 2012)

I am really sorry to hear that, man. It's hard to know what to say in times like this, but it definitely helps to have something to focus your energy on, because wallowing will become an endless cycle. My thoughts are with you and your family and here's hoping that you have better days ahead.


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## ewardjr69 (Feb 25, 2013)

That's tough keep your head up!


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

I am sure I speak for all of us when I say we are very sorry for your loss. Take care of you mate - we will be here when you are ready to get started again.


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

It's been hectic this past few weeks to say the least so to all who were kind enough to send condolences, thank you. What a great bunch of guys you all are. I'm trying to get back to my build but I now have 2 plus weeks of yard work to catch up on first. One thing is for sure; the work in my basement will certainly be waiting for me once I'm caught up. I'll post an update then. Thanks again.


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## Diesel 48 (May 11, 2010)

Sorry for your losses! I pray for better days ahead!


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## mtrunz (Aug 4, 2010)

Diesel 48 said:


> Sorry for your losses! I pray for better days ahead!


Deisel,
Thanks for your support. There has been many more estate issues to deal with than I had anticipated so that combined with the never ending yard work this time of year has kept me from getting back to the "dungeon". I suspect that I may not until we're well into fall but I will begin posting updates again when I get back to it.


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