# What is reference for Audyssey?



## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Does Audyssey set levels at a different point than 75 dB? I ran it yesterday in my Onkyo-3009 and got mediocre sound.

I finally upgraded my Yamaha RX-v1800 with an Onkyo TX-NR3009. I've been lusting after these and the Integra versions of these receivers for years now. I was able to get a new in box version for a great price and jumped on it. 

Here she is resting in my custom DIY cabinet












I ran Audyssey yesterday (both the quick and full routines) and was pretty underwhelmed with the sound of the room. Alot of the omph of the movies (Prometheus opening scene, Optimus's voice in Transformers 1 was just missing. 

So for giggles I got out my RadioShack SPL and checked levels to reference (75 dB). When I double checked Audyssey's settings for the levels they were way off. Here's what Audyssey set to get my channels to reference vs what the RadioShack SPL set

No code has to be inserted here.

* - I just re-leveled the subs by using their volume controls so they now measure 75dB at 0dB setting in the receiver at Reference Volume.

My only thought was maybe Audyssey was trying to set level to a different mark than 75 db. Nonetheless the room sounds better with the RadioShack SPL settings. Audyssey distances were pretty close though. Except for the sub, but I'm sure the BFD threw it off there.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Not sure - hoping someone else can chime in with their thoughts here as I am working on my room right now and I am very interested in what Audyssey is doing...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

May I ask first when you ran Audyssey, did you have the mic placed on a tripod at ear level pointing straight up in the listening position? Did you messure more then one location?


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> May I ask first when you ran Audyssey, did you have the mic placed on a tripod at ear level pointing straight up in the listening position? Did you messure more then one location?


Yes, when I first ran it in Full mode. I placed the Audyssey mic on a tripod and adjusted it to the same height my head is in when seated. For full mode I measured 3 positions. 

Dead center between seating position 1 and 2
Seating position 2
Seating position 3

Still got crazy results

For running Audyssey in quick mode, it only does one position and I used the center position between the listening position 1 and 2. Still got crazy results. Like I said distances were close, but levels were way off if Audyssey is trying to get to 75dB at reference.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Is the radio shack meter set with "C" weighting on?


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Yes, with C weighting on.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Are you pointing the SPL meter at the speakers as you go around the room or pointing it up?


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Pointing straight up. 

No I do not aim it at the speakers as Audyssey does its work. Same thing with RS SPL meter, straight up, no turning or aiming at each speakers.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I think (I may be wrong) but you need to point the RS meter at the speakers you are tuning, unlike the Audyssey mic as its tuned differently.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

No I think so. Every manual and training I've seen has the spl meter pointing straight up. Once I saw it tilted forward 45 degrees. But never aimed at each speaker.


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## primetimeguy (Jun 3, 2006)

Yes Audyssey calibrated to 75db. I would trust the Audyssey mic more than the SPL meter. But also keep in the mind that moving the SPL meter even an inch or two could give different results. And when using your receiver test tones, those are not passed through Audyssey to any correction being done by Audyssey is not accounted for in your SPL measurements. So I'd leave things at Audyssey settings or validate with a test disc of some sort with tones that would pass through Audyssey.


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

mpompey said:


> Yes, when I first ran it in Full mode. I placed the Audyssey mic on a tripod and adjusted it to the same height my head is in when seated. For full mode I measured 3 positions.
> 
> Dead center between seating position 1 and 2
> Seating position 2
> ...


Hi,

Do you fell like in an interogation yet:bigsmile:

Are you keeping your position grouped together? 24 inches or so apart?

cheers


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

yoda13 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Do you fell like in an interogation yet:bigsmile:
> 
> Are you keeping your position grouped together? 24 inches or so apart?


A little bit, but I'm trying to remember folks are trying to help. And that people don't think that I'm specifically an idiot. So I'm trying to keep my snarky comments to myself for fear no one will help me. I'll have to post a picture of my seats so folks can get an idea.

To answer your question specifically, the seats are already 24" apart when I do the measurements.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

primetimeguy said:


> Yes Audyssey calibrated to 75db. I would trust the Audyssey mic more than the SPL meter. But also keep in the mind that moving the SPL meter even an inch or two could give different results. And when using your receiver test tones, those are not passed through Audyssey to any correction being done by Audyssey is not accounted for in your SPL measurements. So I'd leave things at Audyssey settings or validate with a test disc of some sort with tones that would pass through Audyssey.


That's a good idea. I'll re-run it again tonight when the boys are asleep and the house is a little quieter. I have an AVIA and DVE DVD on my shelf that I can run through it.

I know for a fact the differences aren't because the tripod moved. Because my tripod has a quick swap attachment that I use for RadioShack SPL, YPAO mic, & Audyssey mic. And yes I did use the Audyssey mic and not the Yamaha YPAO mic.


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

mpompey said:


> A little bit, but I'm trying to remember folks are trying to help. And that people don't think that I'm specifically an idiot. So I'm trying to keep my snarky comments to myself for fear no one will help me. I'll have to post a picture of my seats so folks can get an idea.
> 
> To answer your question specifically, the seats are already 24" apart when I do the measurements.


You're right, no thinks your an idiot , we just don't know your level of knowledge.










Once we know you're following this, we can move on to other things.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

I did it exactly like 1-> 2-> 3.

Later tonight I'll try adding 4 -- 5--6 to the setup and see what happens. I'll also run AVIA to check the sound through the EQ settings. I've been researching the Audyssey thread on AVS as well. And my assumptions about the sub distances being messed up by the BFD were correct.

Many of the users mentioned there of being used to overly high and overly bass emphasized soundtracks and that when first presented with a flatter FR of Audyssey things felt "off". But after a week or so of listening they appreciated the flatter FR curve. That may very well be my situation. And if the receiver level tones aren't being run through the EQ that might be part of the problem when I double check via SPL meter.

I'm curious as to how AVIA will sound running through the new settings. Right now my boys are playing jousting each other with their rolling desk chairs. And my wife is talking to me about something right now. So getting everyone to be quiet while I re-calibrate that room is pretty much out of the question for the next 2 hours or so.

Oh well, I can wait. That's what Rum and Coke is for right?


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

mpompey said:


> I've been researching the Audyssey thread on AVS as well. And my assumptions about the sub distances being messed up by the BFD were correct.


I haven't read what your assumptions, but I think it's to correct phase. I stand to be corrected on this. When I was running MultEQ, by subs distance was always like 5ft off.



> Many of the users mentioned there of being used to overly high and overly bass emphasized soundtracks and that when first presented with a flatter FR of Audyssey things felt "off". But after a week or so of listening they appreciated the flatter FR curve. That may very well be my situation. And if the receiver level tones aren't being run through the EQ that might be part of the problem when I double check via SPL meter.


I agree with this. I now use a different receiver with an also highly praise room correction in which I can actually see the graphs. When I was done moving and tweaking my subs around to get the flat response from 20hz to 100hz, took me another week for my ears to accustomize, I wouldn't change it for anything else now.




> That's what Rum and Coke is for right?


amen:hail:


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## robsong (Apr 3, 2010)

Hi mpompey,

Your 3009 has Audyssey MultEQ XT32 so do 8 positions when calibrating. If you need more help I can send you the Audyssey Setup Guide if you like.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Calibrating now, will add 7th and 8th position to routine


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

I am doing some Audyssey testing right now for a writeup. Here is something you might try, just to see what it tells you.

Running Audyssey with multiple locations always gives a compromise setting that is never as good as the ideal at the primary listener location (LL). Depending on the room, the sacrifice can be a little or a lot. Try running it through the minimal 3 times, with the microphone at the prime LL all three times, just to hear how it could sound at that location ideally. That is the best sound you can hope to get with it. With that setting, you can then listen in the other locations and hear how much variation you are dealing with. Now you have a baseline for your expectations.

Also remember that Audyssey is striving for flat. If you had any LF emphasis before, Audyssey will sound weak in the bass.

Want to see what Audyssey accomplished? Without moving the mic, plug it into a laptop's mic input with REW (having run the sound card calibration), run the laptop output to your receiver, and run a plot. It works great. (This assumes you have REW experience. If not, it might be time to learn.) Now you can see exactly what Audyssey just accomplished. Now move the mic to the other LLs, run REW plots there, and see now much variation is involved between LLs. That will tell you how much Audyssey will be compromising when you run it with multiple LLs moving the mic around.

A few things you can try that can tell you a lot about what Audyssey is doing.


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## primetimeguy (Jun 3, 2006)

I disagree with running 3 measurements in the exact same location. Your ears are 6 inches or more apart and you more than likely shift your head while watching/listening. Also, multiple positions give a better picture of what is really going on in the room vs a point measurement. But I do agree with the idea of taking multiple measurements maybe 6" apart in the main listening position if that is your primary seat and want the best response in that location vs across multiple seats.

And like was mentioned, if you don't like the "flatness" of audyssey, simply bump up your sub a couple db or engage DynamicEQ which increases bass, high freq and surround levels based on volume level....so a smart loudness control.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

A few more thoughts.

Testing with steady sine tones is problematic. Mic movement of a few inches can give drastically different results. Not quite so bad at LF, but still hard to get good repeatability. Filtered pink noise is better if you can find a source. (Like REW on a laptop.)

Once you have Audyssey giving you its best ideal flat results, you can always adjust the AVR's Bass control for more LF if you want it. I personally agree with other posters, once you experience flat, it really grows on you. But personal taste rules, run it the way you like it. Get a good view of what you really have first, though. And always turn tone controls to flat when running Audyssey, it does not bypass them and they will offset your results.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Okay, guys just finished calibrating again. I went up to 8 positions based on the diagram I got from the Audyssey site as well as one of the replies to this thread. After doing Audyssey I took pictures of its results and then broke out my AVIA setup DVD. The results were amazingly close, I am thoroughly surprised. The distances of the speakers were all off by about a foot. You'll see in the details below.

Results of speaker level to Reference:

No code has to be inserted here.

Now the AVIA disc says that these should be reading 85 dB via their test tone. But I believe their disc ran 10 db hot. But I'm thinking of just leaving the levels where they are at. Also the AVIA disc doesn't have tones for Surround back speakers. I guess I need to get an updated one with back surrounds and IIz height channels.

Speaker Distances: Prior to running Audyssey I got out my tape measure and physically measured the distances to the speakers to compare to what Audyssey deduced. Here are the results (in feet):

No code has to be inserted here.

So I'm considering changing the distances to match actual room. Leaving the rest alone and seeing if my ears get used to it. 

What do you guys think?


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

primetimeguy said:


> I disagree with running 3 measurements in the exact same location. Your ears are 6 inches or more apart and you more than likely shift your head while watching/listening.


Beg pardon, I should have been more specific. What I actually do is 4 measurements, 2 for the left ear and 2 for the right, 8 inches apart. This mainly affects mids and highs, not the lows that you are concerned with, but I agree that as a practice it is the proper approach.



primetimeguy said:


> Also, multiple positions give a better picture of what is really going on in the room vs a point measurement


All due respect, in my opinion they tell you very little other than what Audyssey thinks is the best it can give you given the circumstances of the room, not what the circumstances actually are. And, as I said, the 1 LL experiment is intended only to let you know what your ideal is at that location, so you can know what compromises are being made. Understood it might be more detail than you want to get into, but when someone is having trouble getting good sound in a room with a tool like Audyssey, more detailed information might be just what they need.

Trying to be helpful.


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## robsong (Apr 3, 2010)

Do not change the distance setting of the subwoofer. The subwoofer / speaker time alignment blend is based on this setting. The distance between what audyssey has and actual is very close. Also what are your trim levels.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

robsong said:


> Do not change the distance setting of the subwoofer. The subwoofer / speaker time alignment blend is based on this setting. The distance between what audyssey has and actual is very close. Also what are your trim levels.


Okay, I'll put the sub distances back. What about the rest of the speakers should I put those back to what Audyssey thinks are my distances?

Here are my current trim levels

No code has to be inserted here.


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## robsong (Apr 3, 2010)

I would leave everything as is and just listen for a few weeks and the trims look good. This is from FAQ about Audyssey. Audyssey sets these different delays by calculating the time it takes the sound to travel from the speaker to the Main Listening Position (at the speed of sound of course) and setting an appropriate distance. For this reason, it is not advisable to change the distance settings unless you really know what you are doing.


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## primetimeguy (Jun 3, 2006)

AudiocRaver said:


> Beg pardon, I should have been more specific. What I actually do is 4 measurements, 2 for the left ear and 2 for the right, 8 inches apart. This mainly affects mids and highs, not the lows that you are concerned with, but I agree that as a practice it is the proper approach.
> 
> All due respect, in my opinion they tell you very little other than what Audyssey thinks is the best it can give you given the circumstances of the room, not what the circumstances actually are. And, as I said, the 1 LL experiment is intended only to let you know what your ideal is at that location, so you can know what compromises are being made. Understood it might be more detail than you want to get into, but when someone is having trouble getting good sound in a room with a tool like Audyssey, more detailed information might be just what they need.
> 
> Trying to be helpful.


I think we are both on the same page and just trying to help. Turns out these auto room correction systems aren't so auto.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Ok, I will go with everything here. At least until my M2s arrive and I have to this all over again.


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## robsong (Apr 3, 2010)

We are all here to help each other as will to learn together. If you need more info on Audyssey set up just PM.
Now time to watch Red Dawn. :bigsmile:


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

I'm watching Prometheus and eating some Ben & Jerry's.


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## primetimeguy (Jun 3, 2006)

mpompey said:


> I'm watching Prometheus and eating some Ben & Jerry's.


Rum and coke gone?


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Nope plenty of both left. Just getting ready to make another one.


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## robsong (Apr 3, 2010)

Just finished watching Red Dawn with my jujyfruits. The movie was OK. Did you enjoy Prometheus with your new set up.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Actually I did enjoy it. After getting used to the new setup there were some nuances that I hadn't noticed before. Didn't know how much was real vs psycho-acoustics going on. But I guess this will grow on me.


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## robsong (Apr 3, 2010)

Just give it time and enjoy because you can always change your set up. If you need more help just post we are here to help each other out.


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

mpompey said:


> Actually I did enjoy it. After getting used to the new setup there were some nuances that I hadn't noticed before. Didn't know how much was real vs psycho-acoustics going on. But I guess this will grow on me.


Awesome! Glad you're enjoying it.

Also, you have a great attitude about it. Not many are as open to try suggestions as you are. 

cheers


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

mpompey said:


> Actually I did enjoy it. After getting used to the new setup there were some nuances that I hadn't noticed before. Didn't know how much was real vs psycho-acoustics going on. But I guess this will grow on me.


I, too, am glad to hear you are enjoying it. While the final arbiter is always personal taste, it is refreshing to hear a listener looking for something other than "More bass!" Hope it works out _great_ for you.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

AudiocRaver said:


> I, too, am glad to hear you are enjoying it. While the final arbiter is always personal taste, it is refreshing to hear a listener looking for something other than "More bass!" Hope it works out _great_ for you.


I guess I've done alot of changes in my room in a small amount of time. I was used to the way my room used to sound before the Onkyo and the Room treatments were all in. Prior to all this recent work, when I watched movies on the Yamaha RX-V1800, I usually watched them at around -25dB to -23dB. Anything higher than that just sounded too harsh. I leveled all my speakers with the receiver test tones of course, but anything more than -22dB just seemed unbearable. I guess that is listener fatigue. When I added the panels behind the front soundstage and left wall I could feel that it tamed the room. Because I could now watch a movie at the previous unbearable level of -20dB and it didn't feel too harsh.

Now that I've gotten the Onkyo and ran Audyssey I'm watching movies at -20dB to mabye -16dB, so of course I was concerned that the oomph that was previously there in spades at those levels in the Yamaha were missing in the Onkyo.

Watching movies at -20dB to -16dB, is that too high? Where do you guys have your volume at when you are watching movies?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I run my room at between -20 and -10 most times and sometimes even higher. Reference level is considered 0 on the receiver if the calibration is done correctly.


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

That confirms my thinking about where I'm running too. 0dB is too loud for my tastes. I went to my local boutique Home Theater Design store and in there 250K room they were running at - 14.5 on a NAD receiver/ pre-amp.


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## robsong (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm at -25 to - 15 on my Denon 4311ci.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm usually at -45


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

-28 is usually good for me.


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

I was between -16 to -12 on my Denon 2311, on my new MRX, -20 to -16


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## mpompey (Jan 5, 2007)

Thanks for all the responses, this is really helpful to know. 

In my mind I always think of 0dB as clipping.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

mpompey said:


> Thanks for all the responses, this is really helpful to know.
> 
> In my mind I always think of 0dB as clipping.


A couple of points of clarification, and beg pardon of this has already been covered. AND, please correct if I state this wrong.

We are talking about reference levels and it is easy to mix terms. 0 dB is clipping when talking about a 0 dB Full-Scale, or 0 dBFS, signal level - used more in electronics discussions. Dolby Reference Level is defined as the AVR gain setting that will give an 85 dB RMS SPL reading from a single front main speaker with an input of broad-band pink noise whose RMS value is 20 dB below clipping. The speaker setup trim values help make sure all the individual channel gains in a system support making this happen. (The sub channel has more headroom and ref level is supposed to be 30 dB below clipping.) In terms of listening volume, 85 dB RMS SPL is quite loud, and should, depending on how the sound track was mixed, be the loudest volume a movie gets to when your AVR is set to the reference level. At that level, the AVR has 20 dB of headroom for delivering peaks without clipping, so the SPL can get up to 105 dB Peak from a single front main speaker.

To add to the confusion, not all AVRs give the same kind of readout for volume/level. Some work with the Dolby reference and give an "85" readout when the volume level will be 85 dB RMS SPL during loudest passages. Others go 0% to 100%, and others go "minus infinity" to 0. So the AVR readout numbers can mean different things depending on their design and how the AVR and system gain were set up. It seems like the "85" readout for a "Dolby reference volume" would be the most useful, and probably the majority of newer AVRs work this way.

Just when we thought it was all getting clear...:huh:


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