# PB12-NSD good as 20-39 PCi



## Guest

Well my birthday is in September and I'm going to celebrate by upgrading my Dayton 10" sub to something better. I've decided on SVS and am really excited about getting something ordered. 

My room size right now is 20x30x10. I know, it's huge. I say "right now" though because I'm in the military and am going to move in a year, so I can't really buy just based on this house. I'm considering either the 20-39 Pci or the new PB12-NSD. My wife approves of the 20-39 so that's pretty tempting. But the PB12 is smaller, and I'm gradually getting pulled towards it. My question is - do you think the PB12 will live up to the 20-39? Will it do a decent job in my big room? If you had the choice, what would you get? 

Thanks,
Casey


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## Ron Stimpson

Casey,

Having "PCS'd" more times than I care to recall (though fewer times than most) I'd highly recommend you go for one of our "PC" (Powered Cylinder) subs. 

This are much lighter, and easier to move and fit into sometimes tight quarters than their box brothers. That's a big rooom, I'd go for the 25-31PCi if you can't step up to the 20-39PC+ (which will more than keep up with the PCi above 25hz but have quite a bit more depth to fill all that space too. If you know for sure you are going to have smaller quarters down the road, you might go 20-39PCi now but I always buy for today's certainty, not tomorrow's "maybe".

Just e-mail or fax us a copy of your LES if you are active duty and we'll float you a 10% discount too. We aren't able to do that for everyone but those in uniform today get what we can give.

Ron
SVS


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## Guest

Thanks Ron for answering all my questions via email! I can't wait to order an SVS sub.


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## Sonnie

So what did you decide to get Casey?


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## MrPorterhouse

I gotta tell ya, that PB12-NSD is a fine looking sub. I haven't gotten the chance to hear one yet, and I'm all excited to do so. With the PB10 being pretty much a legend in subs, the PB12-NSD must be just amazing.


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## Ron Stimpson

Oh it takes the PB10-NSD concept to the next level for sure. The "old" PB12-NSD was no slouch. Honestly we'll lament the loss of the stout "classic" SVS downfiring cabinet, but the added depth and efficiency of the twin-braced "New PB12-NSD" can't be denied. I've heard it. The PB10-NSD's big brother is nearly here and he's going to just _*stun *_middle market customers.

Toss in the long-in process return of our exclusive take on Cream White and Sterling Silver for better integration with matching SBS-01 speakers and we're confident the high value crowd will snap them up with gusto.

Just a few words of warning on the new PB12-NSD (we're wrapping up FR charts and other stuff for the website as I write this for pre-order pages). Don't count on the same old SVS prices for long. _Every _single material cost we've got: oil, steel, copper, aluminum, plastic, and all manner of shipping on any supply item has gone up, several fold in some cases.

We've long taken the hit and smoothed over these costs with greater efficiency, vertical integration (making woofers in-house), and larger volumes here and in our burgeoning export markets. In fact, we're in our 7th year of shipping product now and we've never raised prices. Never. Not once. Pretty shocking if you think about that (and what if anything else in your life falls into that category. It's a short list I'm sure).

That's going to be changing unless someone discovers an oil field in Ohio soon. Recent revelations of even tighter supplies (read higher prices) due to oversights in Alaska oil transport finally pushed us to revisit thinning margins at each end of our pricing spectrum.

The net result is simple, after 7 years of holding the line, prices will be going up. If we announce a price it's always going to be with the proviso that it's what we can support for a discreet period of time. And we're pouring more money into expansion than ever, the MTS-01 line alone, along with new woofer production is racking up hundreds of thousands in operating budget. But investments you can bank on. Increased material costs have to be accounted for on the bottom line eventually. You don't invest or bank on $3.50/gal fuel, you pay more and pass that cost on at some point. 

Just a word to the wise to those "insiders" hanging out here. There's no whining or sniveling at SVS, just hard math going on and the numbers speak volumes. Our core customers deserve to know this is coming, thus this post. While we aim to be the price/performance leader in every spectrum of product position in our line, at some point you have to account for higher costs on virtually everything if you refuse to compromise on service, quality or performance. 

And everyone knows those sorts of compromises aren't acceptable at SVS.

If we were importing turnkey commodities (say DVD players at $49, re-badged speakers or subs from some Chinese conglomerate, etc) it'd be different. If you are manufacturing in the USA, or anywhere really (even China), you _will _be presenting consumers with higher prices, or... making some compromise someplace else.

At least on roll-out of orders, the New PB12-NSD will offer improved performance, color choices and sleek new styling. It will not offer the same price for long probably. Anyone in manufacturing that's reading this already is mouthing the words "been there, done that". Raising prices "isn't our bag, baby", but we'll be doing it when and where we have to to account for the effects of costs which started a couple of years ago actually. 

Ron
SVS


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## Guest

Sonnie,

After talking to Ron I'm probably going to get the 25-31 PCi. Ron really helped me out and advised that for my large room size, the 25-31 PCi is more capable of filling it. 

By the way, thanks for the heads up on prices Ron. I think it's only fair and it is crazy to think that you haven't raised prices in 7 years!

Casey


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## khellandros66

He should also consider the SB-12, what if he prefers that sound too. Ron, how would it fair in his currect room??

~Bob


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## Ron Stimpson

Bob,

That sub would fare pretty well but while it's frequency response is pretty close to the 25-31PCi (with the new NSD woofer) the powered cylinder will have quite a large enclosure volume and efficiency edge (big ported subs are just going to outgun small sealed subs, there's just no way to get around that in any sort of reasonable price).

So if you have a big space, and you want the most cost effective solution the bigger vented subs will be your best choice still. The fact the cylinders are relatively light and don't take up much floor space, means they'll remain viable alternatives where tight locations (but not visible size) are concerns.

Ron
SVS


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## khellandros66

Ron, I was actually very tempted to go with the 20-39PCi but choose DIY. I think when the next time comes around I will just go ahead with a cylinder from you guys. 

~Bob


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## MrPorterhouse

I was considering DIY as well, but the designs I like were strikingly similar to the PB12-NSD. So, now it comes down to whether or not I want to do the work myself or buy one already made. I'd probably put some more amp into it and go a little bigger with the enclosure, but still very close to the PB12-NSD. After you add up the cost of driver, amp, enclosure materials, and finishing, you'd be within the cost of the PB12 or very close. It would then come down to parts I could find on sale and whether or not I'd need *more* than the PB12-NSD.


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## Ron Stimpson

DIY is a GREAT way to get great bass, and has rewards that go way beyond mere audio. 

However, having built quite a few subs, I can say without question there is no way I'd be able to match the quality of the materials and slick fit/finish of our products today. Not boxes or cylinders. And with ever more exclusive designs in woofers and cabinets etc, and just insane levels of refinement of our BASH amps (which are based on standard amp platforms but heavily modified and refined for our use) there's more and more of a challenge to match final designs even if you are an expert in subwoofer design. 

Don't do DIY because you want to try and outgun a particular sub we sell for a bit less money. If you value your time at all, the math is against you there. Do it for the satisfaction of making something from the hours or research, parts sourcing, then plenty of dust and sweat it'll take to make it all look good and work good.

No OEM appreciates the personal satisfaction you can get from DIY more than SVS does, but you have to be realistic about what you are going to achieve, or even why you are doing it. Making a better sub for less money would be way down the list of most guys that have done it more than once.

Ron
SVS


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## Chrisbee

Ron

While you may have built much of your your present customer bass on offering exceptional perfomance for the money. There are many potential customers out there who would take you far more seriously if you just added a nought to all your product prices and reduced their performance by half. It seems to work for (some) other AV companies!


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## Manic Miner

Hehe, I know for a fact that it would make some people take SVS more seriously. 

I think SVS should build a 'price no object' model using exotic and hard to get materials like for example pressed swallow nests for cone material, and ports from hollowed out teak logs. Use lots of abbrevations for even the simplest of controls and functions, and even better trademark every abbrevation. 

For example wich one sounds better: SVS: 1 band PEQ, or Infinitys version: R.A.B.O.S.™

They are indentical in function, but yet I've seen people go bananas over R.A.B.O.S.™ telling that it performs miracles, I've heard nothing of the kind about the 1 band PEQ yet 

Build it and they will come...


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## Chrisbee

Manic Miner said:


> They are indentical in function, but yet I've seen people go bananas over R.A.B.O.S.™ telling that it performs miracles, I've heard nothing of the kind about the 1 band PEQ yet



Well, at least they didn't call it R.A.M.B.O.S!


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## Manic Miner

Hehe, if they did I would never ever have sold my Infinity Kappa Sub. I for one am not ashamed to say that I'm excited as a kid about both Rambo 5 and even more so; Balboa -> "You dont have his skill, you dont have his speed.. we need power!"

And when the title of the theme song is "Still Here" you sort of know what you're going to get


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## Chrisbee

Manic Miner said:


> I for one am not ashamed to say that I'm excited as a kid about both Rambo 5 and even more so; Balboa -> "You dont have his skill, you dont have his speed.. we need power!"
> 
> And when the title of the theme song is "Still Here" you sort of know what you're going to get


You mean they made more than one? :holycow:


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## Manic Miner

They sure did! Once you have a working receipe there is no point in holding back! 

The kid in me is still hoping for the two ultimate showdown movies: Stallone VS Scwarzenegger and Segal VS Norris.

Van Damme should probably go up against the other well known balletdancer from the 80's; Rudolf Nureyev 

Now how was this related to SVS again?


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## Chrisbee

I went to hide behind the sofa when you mentioned Infinity!


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## Manic Miner

Relax Chris  Infinity subs do not bite, neither do they slam or do anything else physical. They are mostly harmless unless you push them to hard, then they will make frightning noises


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## Chrisbee

Manic Miner said:


> They are mostly harmless unless you push them to hard, then they will make frightning noises


I'm going back behind the sofa! :surrender:


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## Manic Miner

Hehe. you can come out again, the Infinity is gone and it's never coming back! 

But it should be said that the Kappa sub was responsible for making me buy a PB10. At the time I read a lot about how the PB10 managed to make the 'Darla' scene from Finding Nemo a physical experience. I took a quick look at the stats for the Kappa and compared them to the PB10 and deceided that the Kappa should also be able to deliver the same kind of experience.

So I popped Finding Nemo from in the DVD player and tried. I could hear each and every tap, but it wasn't a physical experience. So I increased the volume by 4db and tried again. I will never forget the noise the sub made! I dove over the coffe table and hit the 'off' switch on the receiver just in time to prevent the Kappa from self destructing.

The next day I placed an order for a PB10, and the rest is history


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## OvalNut

Too funny. My prior sub was a 10", 150w Infinity Servo Sub. ... eek, what a wheezing thumpbox. It didn't play notes, but it did make sounds.

I made up my mind to resolve what all the chatter was about real subs like SVS/HSU, etc, and purchased a 20-39 PC+. Talk about an "Ahah" experience... :sn: 

Once I got the concept, I soon traded that in for a PC Ultra, and my sub needs have been well fed ever since.:jiggy: 


Tim
:drive:


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## Chrisbee

Not so much a sob story as a sub story. :devil:

I like my stories with happy endings. :T


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## Guest

Well all my 25-31 PCi is its way and should be here Friday. Unfortunately (depending on your point of view) that's the same day me and the wife leave for Orlando for a short vacation. :sad: But I'll be back on Monday. Signature is required so I'm hoping the UPS guy doesn't leave the package outside my door all weekend like he normally does. Hopefully they don't do that with big packages. 

I can't wait to get this baby hooked up. I may need to take another day off from work next week. :devil:


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## khellandros66

Ron Stimpson said:


> DIY is a GREAT way to get great bass, and has rewards that go way beyond mere audio.
> 
> Don't do DIY because you want to try and outgun a particular sub we sell for a bit less money. If you value your time at all, the math is against you there. Do it for the satisfaction of making something from the hours or research, parts sourcing, then plenty of dust and sweat it'll take to make it all look good and work good.
> 
> No OEM appreciates the personal satisfaction you can get from DIY more than SVS does, but you have to be realistic about what you are going to achieve, or even why you are doing it. Making a better sub for less money would be way down the list of most guys that have done it more than once.
> 
> Ron
> SVS


Ron is absolutely right, if you have any doubts of going DIY, then buy an SVS.. After spending two weeks of time on my new enclosure (which still isn't pretty). I must say that yeah next time I just look to the guys who can get me both performance and cosmetics in one package.

~Bob


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## Guest

Well everyone I haven't been on here too much lately because I've been enjoying the sub. 

My first impressions: awesome! I can't believe I wondered if there would be a huge difference between my Dayton 10" sub and the 25-31 Pci. The bass goes much deeper and easily fills the room. The SVS has plenty of room to breathe too, as the gain is only set at 1/4 for my setup. I popped in a couple music CDs and could clearly hear lower bass that I hadn't heard before. I watched Finding Nemo and War of the Worlds and was amazed at what the sub could do. It really brought my entire home theather to a new level. It's crazy how much more realism is added in movies from having a good sub. 

While watching War of the Worlds, my wife was actually getting scared from the tripods because you could hear everything about them. She listened one of her new CDs, "Danity Kane" and when we were in the car later that night she mentioned, dang there's so much more bass on this song that you can't hear in the car now.. It's pretty cool when your wife notices something with your setup. 

Anyway, just want to say I'm one very happy customer! Thanks Ron!

PS: The sub looks great in my living room, I'll take pics later on..


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## Guest

Few pics...


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## Sonnie

Nice... glad you are liking it so well. I've actually never heard one of the cyliners yet... maybe one day. You setup looks good all around. :T


SIDE NOTE: "Go Advanced" and then use the little gemclip drop down menu in the tools bar above the message posting area... just to the right of the little white smiley face. Once you've uploaded the photos, place your cursor in the message posting area and then drop down the menu and click on whichever attachment you want placed where you had your cursor at.


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## Guest

Thanks Sonnie! I'll keep those steps in mind next time I post pics.


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## SteveCallas

> I for one am not ashamed to say that I'm excited as a kid about both Rambo 5 and even more so; Balboa


I'm super excited for both - Rocky Balboa will be the first movie to get me back out into the theaters since White Noise.....but come on man, it's Rambo 4, not 5  I'm a huge fan of both series - I always keep my Rambo II knife close at hand, just in case. Really wish part IV would have been based on him going back to target extremists, but I'll take any Rambo sequel over no Rambo sequel as long as he keeps it in line with the others.


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## lienly

if have choices, definitely get made in USA!:T no matter it's sub or Tee, quality should be better than made in CN!:spend: 

don't know if new SVS sub carried a 'made in USA' mark somewhere on body? really hope so!:hail: thus people can know it's not a cheap MIC sub.:dizzy: 



Ron Stimpson said:


> If we were importing turnkey commodities (say DVD players at $49, re-badged speakers or subs from some Chinese conglomerate, etc) it'd be different. If you are manufacturing in the USA, or anywhere really (even China), you _will _be presenting consumers with higher prices, or... making some compromise someplace else.
> Ron
> SVS


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