# NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelity for my setup?



## ndurantz

Hi All,

I have a NuForce Icon doing my music processing from my Mac Mini fed into a pair of Orb Mod 1's and a Mirage Omni 8 sub. I just found out that NuForce is bringing out an Icon 2 which bumps from 16/44 & 15 WPC to 24/96 & 30WPC. Here are the links:

Icon - http://www.nuforce.com/hp/products/icon/index.php

Icon 2 - http://www.nuforce.com/hp/products/icon2/index.php

Here is my question:

If most of my rips are Apple Lossless from CD, I am not going to see any gain in fidelity in upgrading to the Icon 2, correct? I would only notice a difference if I had some HD digital tracks?

Along with that, if I have an Oppo 980H hooked up to the Icon via RCA cables, I won't see any improvement there either because the Oppo has already processed the SACD or DVDA to analog output internally?

I would enjoy the doubling of the WPC as the NuForce is a little polite in the sound currently.

Hope that make sense. Anyone feel free to chime in and help assure me I am understanding correctly. Thanks!


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## JoeESP9

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

The 24/96 in the Nuforce 2 means it can work with files that have sampling rate/word lengths as high as 24/96. It doesn't upsample to 24/96. You would still be playing files that are 16/44. If you get any high resolution (HD) files (24/96) it would work with them and your current files. Your current files and any future files captured in Apple Lossless from standard Red Book CD's are and will continue to be 16/44. There would be no increase in fidelity from them. Any increased fidelity would come from saving and playing 24/96 HD files which can't come from a CD. 

Nuforce says the Icon 2 is 24 WPC. Going from 15 to 24 WPC is not much of a change.

AFAIK: Apple Lossless doesn't work with 24/96 or any other HD file format.


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## ndurantz

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

Thanks, Joe. You confirmed some of what I was already thinking and provided some additional insight.

While it may tip my hand to my "audiophile in training" status, am I correct in thinking the Oppo is already processing the 24/96 prior to output, so the NuForce is just amplfying the signal and I wouldn't gain anything by upgrading?


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## jackfish

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

While that unit has only a modest increase in output over the previous version, both the Icon and Icon 2 have preamp outputs so you could use a separate power amplifier with it in the future. If you are going to stay with your current resolution for digital music files yet need a bit more power you could consider adding a power amp, perhaps the Emotiva UPA-2.


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## JoeESP9

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*



ndurantz said:


> Thanks, Joe. You confirmed some of what I was already thinking and provided some additional insight.
> 
> While it may tip my hand to my "audiophile in training" status, am I correct in thinking the Oppo is already processing the 24/96 prior to output, so the NuForce is just amplfying the signal and I wouldn't gain anything by upgrading?


Where are you getting 24/96 music files from? There are none on regular CD's. I believe your Oppo plays SACD's but they are Bitstream. AFAIK your Oppo also plays DVD-A disks. They are 24/96. If you're using the analog out from your Oppo it's all a moot point. You could play DVD-A's and use the digital out from the Oppo into your DAC. Of course, this works only if your DAC does 24/96.

I agree with jackfish about adding an external power amp.


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## ndurantz

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*



JoeESP9 said:


> Where are you getting 24/96 music files from? There are none on regular CD's. I believe your Oppo plays SACD's but they are Bitstream. AFAIK your Oppo also plays DVD-A disks. They are 24/96. If you're using the analog out from your Oppo it's all a moot point. You could play DVD-A's and use the digital out from the Oppo into your DAC. Of course, this works only if your DAC does 24/96.


Yeah, I was speaking to the 24/96 fidelity with regard to the SACD & DVD-A discs. The Oppo does both SACD and DVD-A and I am using the analog outs into the NuForce Icon, so you confirmed my thinking that upgrading is a moot point in most (if not all) regards. ALTHOUGH, I have heard of folks ripping hi-res formats into 24/96. I have Audio Hijack Pro, which lets me rip any source into 24 bit AIFF, but the sample rate only goes to 48. Not sure how an AIFF rip at that sample rate would compare to the sound of SACD or DVDA outright since I can't go up to 96. Maybe something I will try prior to upgrading.

I will begin to plan for an external amp. That Emotiva is pretty large (physically) and I like to keep my desktop system svelte, but balanced with quality. But then again, size pretty much goes hand-in-hand with power, so I will start to investigate a bit and see where I end up.

Thanks for the advice/insight!! :T


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## jackfish

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

Not as powerful as the Emotiva but the Parasound Zamp v3 is small and well regarded.


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## ndurantz

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*



jackfish said:


> Not as powerful as the Emotiva but the Parasound Zamp v3 is small and well regarded.


That is a nice looking unit. Now since I have a 2.1 set up, how would I incorporate the sub since I see no sub out on the amp? :scratch: I am still learning.


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## recruit

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

*mod comment* - chaps can we be careful when talking about ripping CD' or other formats as there are copyright rules in place.


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## ndurantz

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*



recruit said:


> *mod comment* - chaps can we be careful when talking about ripping CD' or other formats as there are copyright rules in place.


Of course. Thanks for the reminder. I guess I don't think twice about such discussions because I only rip music I own. I can't imagine stealing art of any kind, especially music.


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## jackfish

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*



ndurantz said:


> That is a nice looking unit. Now since I have a 2.1 set up, how would I incorporate the sub since I see no sub out on the amp? :scratch: I am still learning.


 There are RCA jacks to the right of the "In" RCA jacks with "Loop ->" pointing to them. Those right RCA jacks are an output of the input which can be fed to line in inputs of a subwoofer.


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## ndurantz

jackfish said:


> There are RCA jacks to the right of the "In" RCA jacks with "Loop ->" pointing to them. Those right RCA jacks are an output of the input which can be fed to line in inputs of a subwoofer.


Cool! Now would I just run one of those two out to the sub or would I need to connect both using dual to single connector RCA cable?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jackfish

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

Yes, a 2 male to 1 female RCA adapter with a single rca cable of appropriate length could be used.


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## JoeESP9

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

Many subs are configured so that only one RCA connection is needed even if there are two input jacks. Check the manual for your sub. If it has a single jack marked LFE use that one. You'll be using the crossover in your preamp so turn the crossover frequency control on the sub all the way up.


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## jackfish

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*



JoeESP9 said:


> Many subs are configured so that only one RCA connection is needed even if there are two input jacks. Check the manual for your sub. If it has a single jack marked LFE use that one. You'll be using the crossover in your preamp so turn the crossover frequency control on the sub all the way up.


The Mirage Omni 8 subwoofer has a single RCA input for a "summed" two channel or LFE input. The line "Loop" output of the Parasound Zamp is right and left channel and a 2 male to 1 female RCA adapter should be used to get its line output to a single RCA plug so that all desired program material is accommodated. In the OP's described system there is no crossover in the preamp so the speakers will have to be run full range, relying on their inherent rolloff, and the subwoofer's low pass filter would be engaged. With the Orb 1s that would likely be around 80 Hz.


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## ndurantz

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

Thanks for the input! JoeESP9 actually got right to what I was thinking as I have heard you can run just one RCA out into LFE and that would carry all the info needed. However, that always sounded odd to me.

So from what jackfish is saying, it depends on what is outputing the signal that determines whether you need to run both L & R outs into the LFE or if one will suffice?

Just to clarify I plan to use both outs in the set-up once the amp is added. I am just curious as to why sometimes running one channel out will work, while at other times (like this one) you need to use both.


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## jackfish

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

Some subs will take a single RCA cable from the receiver or preprocessor sub output, usually marked "LFE" or when there is a pair of sub input jacks sometimes one (usually the right) is marked "LFE" or the manual specifies the RCA jack that will accept the LFE input. My sub just has a pair of RCA jacks and my preamp has a single subwoofer RCA jack, so I use a 2 male to 1 female RCA adapter, and a single RCA cable. In your case, if you got a Parasound Zamp, you would be taking a right and left pair of full range outputs from the amp and "summing" them with a 2 male to 1 female RCA adapter into a single RCA cable going to your subwoofer which has a single RCA jack for line level input.


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## ndurantz

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*



jackfish said:


> Some subs will take a single RCA cable from the receiver or preprocessor sub output, usually marked "LFE" or when there is a pair of sub input jacks sometimes one (usually the right) is marked "LFE" or the manual specifies the RCA jack that will accept the LFE input. My sub just has a pair of RCA jacks and my preamp has a single subwoofer RCA jack, so I use a 2 male to 1 female RCA adapter, and a single RCA cable. In your case, if you got a Parasound Zamp, you would be taking a right and left pair of full range outputs from the amp and "summing" them with a 2 male to 1 female RCA adapter into a single RCA cable going to your subwoofer which has a single RCA jack for line level input.


So essentially what you are looking for on both the output and the input is some indication of LFE. For example, my Denon AVR 1909 has and LFE out and my Orb Super 8 sub has an LFE in, so one cable will do the trick. If there isn't a single output labled as such/described as such in the manual, then you need to run from both L & R outputs on an unused speaker channel to the sub LFE. Likewise, if you have L & R inputs on your sub with neither being designated as a "summed" input, you'll need to use both.

Did I get that right?


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## jackfish

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

That's about it, except "L & R outputs on an unused speaker channel" would only be used for a high level or speaker level input on a subwoofer if you are talking about speaker outputs or terminals on an amp or receiver. But I think you actually mean "L & R line level outputs." For line level signals it would be "L & R RCA jack outputs on an unused line level output." This would usually be a two channel preamp or subwoofer output. Good luck in your quest for an amp solution.


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## ndurantz

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*



jackfish said:


> That's about it, except "L & R outputs on an unused speaker channel" would only be used for a high level or speaker level input on a subwoofer if you are talking about speaker outputs or terminals on an amp or receiver. But I think you actually mean "L & R line level outputs."


Yes. You are correct. I misspoke. That is exactly what I meant. I really appreciate the dialog and wishes of luck.


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## ndurantz

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

Been a few months since I was on this thread, but wanted to pick the conversation back up. Of the two amps mentioned, both are a little out of my price range right now, so I am trying to figure out a way to "tighten" the bass for a little less money. Here is what I am thinking:

The Orbs are very efficient and probably don't need more than the 15 wpc to drive them to decent fidelity.

The sub OTOH is not as efficient (I would think) and therefore could benefit from some more power, but with that said I am starting to confuse myself. So I would like some more of everyone's excellent insight.

The power coming from the AC outlet a completely separate thing from the signal running through the channel, correct? What I mean is, I could add a line level amp to the sub channel and possibly see an increase in output/fidelity?

If I did purchase as separate 2 channel amp (as suggested on the previous posts), I could add a center channel if I wanted as I would be picking up two channels (2 on Nuforce and 2 on external amp) correct?


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## jackfish

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*



ndurantz said:


> ...so I am trying to figure out a way to "tighten" the bass for a little less money...The sub OTOH is not as efficient (I would think) and therefore could benefit from some more power, but with that said I am starting to confuse myself...What I mean is, I could add a line level amp to the sub channel and possibly see an increase in output/fidelity?


No, that subwoofer already has a 100 watt amplifier built in. You cannot simply add amplification to the line in input of the subwoofer, which is called line in because the input is supposed to be line level, such as that generated by a preamp.



ndurantz said:


> If I did purchase as separate 2 channel amp (as suggested on the previous posts), I could add a center channel if I wanted as I would be picking up two channels (2 on Nuforce and 2 on external amp) correct?


Adding a center channel in that way would not be advantagous as you would not have center channel program material in a stereo system.

What is it exactly you are trying to accomplish? Do you want a home theater or a stereo music system?


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## ndurantz

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*



jackfish said:


> No, that subwoofer already has a 100 watt amplifier built in. You cannot simply add amplification to the line in input of the subwoofer, which is called line in because the input is supposed to be line level, such as that generated by a preamp.
> 
> Adding a center channel in that way would not be advantagous as you would not have center channel program material in a stereo system.
> 
> What is it exactly you are trying to accomplish? Do you want a home theater or a stereo music system?


I guess where I am confused is what the additional amp (suggested earlier in the thread) will do for me if the sub won't benefit from an in-line amp. I know more power (under certain circumstances?) will improve fidelity as I noticed a difference on my HT set-up when I replaced my entry level Onkyo with a Denon AVR 1909.

Maybe my issue is I don't fully understand the physics of sound and electronics and that is causing two channel to be more confusing more me than a HT set-up.

What I want is to incrimentally, affordably increase the fidelity of my two channel system. I love music and want to hear the best representation of that within my budget. I know a lot of two-channel lovers would say ditch the sats and sub set-up and go with some nice bookselves or towers. While I would love to do that, the necessity of my home being "kid friendly" negates that option. Plus, in this situation, most of my listening is near-field, so I don't know that larger bookshelves or towers would help.

Oh and on the third channel - I do occasionally watch DVD's over my monitor via my Oppo. I thought as long as I had the channel free, might as well make it a 3.1 system.

Thanks as always for your thoughts and insight!


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## jackfish

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

The subwoofer has its own amplifier and will not and cannot benefit from an outboard power amp. What an outboard amp WILL do is allow you to take advantage of the full potential of your Orb Mod1 satellites speakers. The NuForce Icon only has 12 watts per channel. The Orb Mod1 speakers can use an amp with perhaps 10 times that amount of power (rated for amplifiers up to 110 watts per channel and have a sensitivity of 89dB/1w/1m). The NuForce Icon 2 only has 18 watts per channel so there is not a significant difference in output compared to the Icon. You could use the Icon as a preamp (its inboard amplifier would not be used) and use a power amplifier like the Parasound Zamp (45 watts per channel) which would drive your Orbs to significantly higher SPLs and provide more headroom. You would likely hear even more difference with an Emotiva UPA-2 with 125 watts per channel. But as far as getting more out of your subwoofer, all you will get is what it will provide by turning up the "LEVEL" dial.

You do not have a third channel "free" with a stereo system.


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## ndurantz

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

I really appreciate you spelling all that out for me. To make sure I understand:

1) The subs amp maximizes its output by matching its output capacity with the optimal level of amplification within the unit.

2) That is NOT the case with the Orbs as they need external amplification. Driving them with a more powerful amp would create more "headroom," which in turn can yield higher fidelity as space would be opened up for more nuanced sound reproduction. Is that kind of like what you body goes through when working out - once it is warmed up, it is capable of going faster, farther, etc. because you've opened the muscles up to perform at their peak levels?

3) So the signal for the sub would just be passed through the external amp at the line level and then amplified once the signal reached the sub, while the signal for the Orbs would be amplified w/ the external amp, correct?

Thanks again!!


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## jackfish

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

1) A powered subwoofer such as the Mirage Omni S8 takes line level input from a preamplifier, receiver or integrated amplifier and uses its own onboard amplifier to increase the output of the low frequencies it is configured to reproduce. This relieves the amplifier (your NuForce Icon or the Icon with an outboard amplifier like the Emotiva or Parasound) used for the loudspeakers handling the midrange and high frequencies (your Orb satellites in this instance) of having to amplify the low frequencies which generally place the biggest burden on an amplifier. The Mirage Omni S8 can also take speaker level input, which as I explain in 3) is what you will have to use if you want to use the Icon as a preamp with a power amp AND also use a subwoofer.
2) Yes, the Orb Mod1 with its 110 watt power handling rating and 89dB/1w/1m sensitivity will open up quite a bit with 10 times more power than the Icon.
3) I've been looking at the configuration of the Icon inputs and outputs and it appears that if the "Line Out" 3.5mm output is used with a 3.5mm stereo male to two RCA adapter to connect to a power amplifier for the satellites then the subwoofer would have to be connected with the Icon RJ45 speaker level outputs to the "High Level" inputs of the Mirage Omni S8 subwoofer.

http://www.nuforce.com/hp/docs/Icon Manual.pdf
http://www.miragespeakers.com/images/download/298.aspx

http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/nuforce_icon_e.html


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## ndurantz

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*



jackfish said:


> 3) I've been looking at the configuration of the Icon inputs and outputs and it appears that if the "Line Out" 3.5mm output is used with a 3.5mm stereo male to two RCA adapter to connect to a power amplifier for the satellites then the subwoofer would have to be connected with the Icon RJ45 speaker level outputs to the "High Level" inputs of the Mirage Omni S8 subwoofer.


Could you elighten me a bit on "high level" inputs vs. "line level?" It seems that most I know stay away from "high level" inputs. Is there are reason for that? Do you know of a good article or post that educates me on the difference? Or, as you have been so kind, continue to educate me? Thanks!


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## jackfish

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

There may be additional distortion from the amplifier when using speaker level inputs. However, with a subwoofer this might not be noticable. One could also split the line out signal to accommodate both the amplifier and subwoofer which usually doesn't diminish the signal significantly (impedance issues may be present). In your instance there would be a few adapters involved but it would work.


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## ndurantz

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*



jackfish said:


> There may be additional distortion from the amplifier when using speaker level inputs. However, with a subwoofer this might not be noticable. One could also split the line out signal to accommodate both the amplifier and subwoofer which usually doesn't diminish the signal significantly (impedance issues may be present). In your instance there would be a few adapters involved but it would work.


Am I right in thinking if I split the line out signal (3.5 to 2 RCA) one channel would need to be split again and run to the ext. amp with the other being run to the sub?

Hmmm....if it were up to you, what would you choose? Please know I am not holding you to anything, just value your opinion.


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## jackfish

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

If you already have the Icon RJ-45 speaker wire you could try the subwoofer high level inputs, otherwise You could try these inexpensive adapters.

*One 3.5mm stereo male to two RCA female adapter to insert in the NuForce Icon "Line Out" jack* http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=240-137

*Two - RCA one male to two female splitter adapters* http://www.macconnection.com/1/1/33...cable-male-2-female-shielded-6in-255-010.html

*A regular two RCA male to two RCA male cable to go to the power amplifier.*

*One RCA female to two RCA male* http://www.summitsource.com/steren-...t-jack-plug-connector-part-255025-p-8373.html *AND a single RCA male to male cable* http://www.antonline.com/p_254-120BL-GA_623353.htm?gclid=CJOu08_w86QCFWQz5wod3hL8jg *to go to the subwoofer "Line In" jack*


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## jackfish

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

I talked to NuForce and they say the headphone and line out jacks of the Icon send out the same signal (voltage and impedance) so one could use the line out for the subwoofer and the headphone jack for the power amplifier.

You could use this adapter for the NuForce Icon line out to the subwoofer http://www.audiogear.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?key=Adpt-RcfMsm&preadd=action which has a 3.5mm stereo male plug and sums it to a single female RCA jack with the addition of a single RCA audio cable you would be connected to the subwoofer.

And a single 3.5mm stereo male to two RCA female could be used in the NuForce Icon headphone jack with a regular stereo RCA audio cable to the power amplifier.


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## ndurantz

*Re: NuForce Icon 2 - Increased fidelit for my setup?*

Wow. That was really cool of you to check with NuForce for me - appreciate it. I guess my only conern about using the headphone jack would be I would then be without a headphone jack if the amp didn't have one.

If I did do that set up, I was thinking of maybe a smaller integrated amp like the Rotel RA-02 or the NAD C 315 BEE b/c I could then hook up other gear and maintain the headphone input. I know I could likely get more power for the same price with a straight power amp, but thought the integrated amp may be a little more versatile. Any thoughts on a straight power amp vs. an integrated amp?


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## jackfish

How would you use the NuForce Icon with an integrated amp like the Rotel and NAD? I think you would be replacing the Icon rather than supplementing it.


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## ndurantz

jackfish said:


> How would you use the NuForce Icon with an integrated amp like the Rotel and NAD? I think you would be replacing the Icon rather than supplementing it.


DAC functionality for my Apple Lossless files via iTunes as my Mac Mini is my main source in the stereo set-up. I was thinking I could run the line out into an input on the rear of an integrated amp and then run line out from the integrated amp to the sub with the L & R mains hooked up to the integrated amp. That way, if I wanted to upgrade my DAC down the road, I could fund part of that purchase by selling the NuForce. In the meantime, it could serve as a satisfactory DAC/headphone amp.

I wish I would have understood 2 channel stereo more from the beginning. I would have probably set it up w/ a higher end DAC and integrated amp originally.

I guess the trade off is the power and some functional redundancy. Thoughts?


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