# Ideas for front mains



## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Hey guys, been working on a design for a sub which I posted over in the soundsplinter thread under optimum enclosure, and here is my first idea on my mains, let me know what you think, will this design sound good, figuring the enclosure size, port size etc. I'm thinking aprox. 48" tall, (38" not counting the metal stand) and 24"to 30" wide, and 17" deep, initially will be loaded with the Dayton aluminum cone drivers, I'll have to study up on X-overs also. thanks everyone!
Added a couple more traditional designs.


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## Guest (May 29, 2007)

Comb filtering and phase issues galore!

Research what these concepts mean and you understand why line arrays have become so popular.

Sound doesn't behave in the ways we commonly expect.

Sorry!


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## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

They look fantastic, but I would say from an accoustical point of view they are too complicated. I would definately be keeping the curves and flow, but try to reduce the number of drivers and keep them in line and on one flat baffle. If this makes sense.

Cheers

DrF


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm with the other guys.. looks cool, but there are a ton of issues with the accoustics.

haven't even looked at the internal volume issue either -- you should plug your driver's T/S info into something like WinISD to see if you've got the right volume and port size.

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Thanks for the info guys! maybe If I reduce the amount of drivers and do a rectangular enclosure inside the curved one to even things out, I was looking at the 5 1/4" and the 7" drivers for this, if I reduce the 
5 1/4" s to 2 or 3 and lose one of the 7" s and a tweeter,would that be a better set up?
When I nail down the number of drivers Ill figure the enclosure volume and try to learn alittle about the X-overs with some help from you guys! Thanks a ton!!:hail:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I have to say that is some serious creativity there... although it would probably sound worse than my singing (believe me... that's pretty bad... :raped: )


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Please take this for what it's worth -- just the advice of someone who's dabbled in DIY, but will never claim to be an expert.

First, the biggest issue to me isn't the number of drivers, rather it's the orientation of the drivers. You'll want them in a vertical line. My general rule of thumb is that, all other things being equal, more drivers is better. The main reasons for this vertical orientation have been listed above already.

If you decide to go with the curved box, I don't think you need to worry so much about building a rectangular box for the interior volume unless the speaker is really shallow. That being said, I'm not entirely sure if there aren't any issues involved -- resonance issues would be something to investigate. Just for reference, of the "normal" shapes, sphere's are actually the "best" enclosures -- and I *think *pyramids of a minimum angle come in second with rectangular boxes third. 

One other issue you'll need to investigate with a curved enclosure is the baffle step compensation you'll need for your speaker. Edge diffraction may be another issue to look into, but probably not more than a "normal" speaker. Finally, just building an enclosure like that is going to be pretty difficult to make look good. Not saying it can't be done, but I know I don't have the skills to pull that off. 

The last issue I want to address is the crossover. Building a two way crossover properly is difficult/time consuming/potentially costly. It requires a lot testing, measuring, etc. Going with a three way crossover, especially for a beginner, is nigh impossible. Unless, of course, you go with an active crossover -- which, of course, means you'll need to buy a lot more amps. I'm building a 2 way line array right now and I'm WAY too chicken to try and design a proper crossover for this speaker (I'm going active). Like I said above, I'm not an expert, but I've been dabbling in this DIY stuff for a little while, but this area is way to technical for me.

And please don't assume I'm trying to counsel you out of designing your speakers from the ground up --- I just would hate for you to spend a lot of money on a lot of drivers/crossover parts and spend a lot of time building a speaker only to discover you don't like the end result. I really enjoy the whole process and would LOVE for you to try your design -- I just wanted you to be aware of some of the issues you will need to address if you want it to sound as good as it looks.

JCD


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

One other issue I thought I'd bring up was your driver selection. I didn't actually look at the specs, but it looks like you may have too much overlap and not enough coverage with those drivers. I'd expect something in a three way design to go with a tweeter, a 4-5" mid and a 10-12" bass driver. From what I've gathered, look at the FR charts for the drivers. What I'd look for is for the drivers to have a minimum of 2 octaves where they overlap on a (relatively) flat response.

For example, if you have a tweeter that has a frequency range of, say, 2,000Hz-25,000Hz, I'd like to find a mid that is flat up to 8,000Hz and then pick a crossover of 4,000hz.

Just more stuff for you to ponder.. :nerd:

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> I have to say that is some serious creativity there... although it would probably sound worse than my singing (believe me... that's pretty bad... :raped: )


LOL,`come on, you couldn't be that bad:rofl:


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Hmm, Some serious issues here, but i'm not ready to give up yet, I'll look up the specs on the drivers tonight, (it's 6 am, I'm off to work), and go back to the drawing board on driver placement, As far as x-over, is there no kit out there that would fit the bill? (I'm totally un schooled in this) I know in car audio it was fairly easy to buy a cross over and match it up to a three way system and get a good result, Man, if this is so problematic, then my center channel design is going to be a night mare! Talk to you guys later!


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Did some redesigning, box size would be roughley 48" high, 20" wide, and 10-15" deep, Been reading on the line arrays and I'm understanding more now, thanks thylantyr! well gots to get some shuteye, see ya's! opp's my port moved in the drawing, sorry.


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## aceinc (Oct 24, 2006)

Much better I think, but I believe you will want to scrunch the tweets together (maybe even trim the flanges flat on the top & bottom), and make mirrored pair cabinets, with the cabinet shown being the right hand cabinet. Also try to keep the center of the tweets at ear height.

Paul


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Some thoughts on the latest design..


I like the line up of the tweeters and mids -- but I agree, I'd scrunch them together as much as possible
Consider ribbon tweeters -- their dispersal pattern is ideal for line arrays
Maybe also consider more mids and less tweeters. Tweeters typically have a higher SPL -- plus if you're going with a ribbon, they're more expensive.
You may not need the woofer -- it's possible to find a mid that's going low enough that it won't be necessary. Also, with that many woofers, you could probably EQ the bottom part to get the bass your looking for -- you get a lot of headroom when you've got a lot of drivers like that, so the drivers collectively could manage to go lower without seriously degrading the sound
Re: Crossovers --you can buy a pre-fab'd crossover; however, this crossover doesn't take into account the electrical properties of the drivers themselves. You might want to consider reading this as a starter.
And if you can pull off that enclosure design.. that will be wickedly cool!

JCD


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## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

To pick out some points JCD made,

you really only need half if not less the number of tweeters than you have mids/woofers due to the Intrinsic nature of accoustics and transducers/crossovers.

If you build that design please post detailed plans and photos, I am interested in following this and maybe even building something similar.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

I sure will do pics and notes, I am checking into some alernative building materials due to the curve involved, we do alot of marine condtruction with a material called "Starboard" which is a very strong extruded resin that comes in colors, cuts and screws together just like plywood, but is very expensive, I probably can get it at cost though, as a 4x8 colored 3/4" sheet is nearly $300 retail, a friend made a dual 12" sub enclosure for his car with good results.
So, I think I'll try 3 ribbon tweets per side, drop the big driver, and see how it goes, we can always add more tweeters later if needed,
Let me know what you all think of the Starboard. later.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Mongrel714 said:


> I sure will do pics and notes, I am checking into some alernative building materials due to the curve involved, we do alot of marine condtruction with a material called "Starboard" which is a very strong extruded resin that comes in colors, cuts and screws together just like plywood, but is very expensive, I probably can get it at cost though, as a 4x8 colored 3/4" sheet is nearly $300 retail, a friend made a dual 12" sub enclosure for his car with good results.
> So, I think I'll try 3 ribbon tweets per side, drop the big driver, and see how it goes, we can always add more tweeters later if needed,
> Let me know what you all think of the Starboard. later.


I can't wait! I think it's great you're gonna forward with your project.

I also like it that you're leaning towards ribbons. I would have gone that route within my line array project except I wanted to work with a strict budget. I ended up going with a horn tweeter. That would be the other option I think you should consider should the ribbon's be too much. The other issue with the tweeters that I've heard -- that I have NOTHING to back it up with -- is that you should go with 1, or 3 or more -- just not two. I have been told that there is some really weird stuff that goes on when you have 2 tweeters as opposed to 1 or 3 or 4 or...

As for the resin -- not having seen/touched/etc it, I'd be inclined to say it should work fine. My understanding is you want to find something that is stiff, i.e., won't flex. If this resin doesn't flex, you should be good. I've heard concrete actually makes a very fine cabinent box from an accoustic standpoint. It's just difficult to "build" and can be a little heavy.. :neener:

Anyway, there's my 2cents.

JCD


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## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

JCD said:


> The other issue with the tweeters that I've heard -- that I have NOTHING to back it up with -- is that you should go with 1, or 3 or more -- just not two. I have been told that there is some really weird stuff that goes on when you have 2 tweeters as opposed to 1 or 3 or 4 or...


I heard the same thing many years ago, but buggered if i can remember where or why :scratch:

It may simply be an old wives tale about comb filtering, :dontknow:.

Mongrel, have you got a plan view for this enclosure? I would love to see it.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Thanks guys, great to see such enthusiasm for this project, really gets me fired up, I will be finalizing the plans and getting them together over the next week or so, then begging for help with the specs, lol, I really have to work on learning the software, :huh: thanks again for the inspiration!


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Ok guys, the resin board is out, $200 a sheet my cost, WHEW!!!!!, So now my plan is to use some 3/4" Birch, and for thoses of you with kids that skateboard will be familier with this, On the interior side, make 1/4" deep cuts horizontily spaced 1-1 1/2" all the way up the curved part of the enclosure, then assemble the enclosure, fill the relief cuts with wood filler or auto body filler, then coat the interior with fiberglass resin to keep it in place, which probably would not be a problem unless you were doing a sub enclosure this way, but I would want to be sure, I will get some more info together soon for this, This is making me want to get weird with my sub enclosure, but.. Nah we'll stay safe with that one, Talk to ya later guys!


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Wow, $200/sheet is a bit pricey!

Well, I for one can't wait for you to document the process!

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

thylantyr, Very cool Song! and a great name, :T I'm a fan of all kinds of music, but the majority of my old road bands were METAL!! so thank you for that.
sorry guys no plans yet, still working on them, the Florida sun is taking its toll on me and slowing me down, but, I did bring my amp rack home for a test fit, you can see the Onkyo reciever on the bottom, up top I'll mount the QSC RMX1450, the BFD, and have room for one more unit yet to be determined, There is 3" of space on the vent above the reciever, Cheers all.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Hey guys, give me your thoughts on these,

http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog_name=MCMProducts&category_name=3829626&product_id=53-840
!!
And if you would, please give me some ideas on drivers that have frequency ranges that would work with this tweeter, Keeping in mind I'de love to use the aluminum cone Daytons for the look, but its not a deal breaker, Good night!


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

If I used the PT2B planer @ 2000-26.000 Hz, What freq mid driver should I use?


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Allright here we go, using 3-PT2B's per side as a start, will this X-over work, ( I cant do active right away) http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-146
Then my mid driver choices so far:

GW-4028/s 4" http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-373

GW-E1S 5" http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-050

DA 135-8 5 1/4" http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-330

Thanks again


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

O0


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

I like the idea of the http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-300 with the 4500 Hz crossover, http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-148 . This driver should handle the higher XO point and provide fuller, better transitioned midrange at that point.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Thanks for the input jackfish, I've looked at that, its a good looking speaker, So many choices, I've posted my preliminary plans, and now more questions, do I need to add up the enclosure specs of all drivers and build the enclosure accordingly? also adding the port volumes? I'm looking forward to your replys, looks like its coming together! later all


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

I don't have to squeeze the last bit of spl out of this system allthough it would be nice to have, I really want something that has a better sound than my little Onkyo mains and looks very good from the DIY standpoint, and I do wish to upgrade as I go, and, as many of you I'm sure, I will be building speaker enclosures as long as I can , I love this hobby, so building new enclosures won't be an issue with me, 
so, I have my drivers narrowed down to two choices , the Dayton aluminum cone which looks great and matches the original concept of this project visually, and the above mentioned Dayton paper cone which has slightly higher specs. 
As for the tweets I may just use the PT2's untill I can afford to get all the planer tweets I need, I can make the cutout for the planers and do a seperate baffle for the domes. I didnt know this would be so involved but I like the challenge!! Keeps the voices in my head down to a dull roar, LOL :scared:
Oh ya, i would like a ported design.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Hey guys, sorry Ive been away, works been hectic this week, I did manage to make a set of speaker brackets to hang my side surrounds, will be starting on my enclosures in the next few days, enlisted the help of one of our marine mechanics who has a nice set of gravity feed paint guns to lay down some laquer on these babys, can't wait to start! :bigsmile:


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Thanks for that rebutal, Seeing as this is a home theater set up, We'll be listening sitting down the majority of the time, and, I am leaving room for upgrade, the design is not concrete yet anyway. As for SPL, well, coming from an old roadband with 15000 watts of QSC power and standing in front of a marshall double stack for 18 years, I am a little deaf, so I tend not to turn it up tooo loud, at least not as much, huh? what did U say??:scared: Oh yea, I guess saying this in this forum is a nono, but I also had a blazer that hit 142 DB with 2 12" Fosgates and Hi fonics power.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Hello guys, its been awhile, been on a sub build, you can see the project over in the soundsplinter thread, I am about ready to start planning for my mains,but would like to stay within the design constraints of my sub, I have a prelininary design I'm working on and will post tomorrow, later!


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

First off I want to thank everyone who helped with information here, especially thylantyr, I've learned so much and still have a ways to go.
Looking at this new design, I'm not sure I like it as much as the original one in this thread, even though it does not match the sub, so what do you all think, match the sub or go with the orig design??
The sub as you can see still needs to be painted, but is shaking pictures off my wall.


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

That will be a nice set of mains!!!:drool::drool::wow:


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Rodny Alvarez said:


> That will be a nice set of mains!!!:drool::drool::wow:


So Rodney, I take it you vote to stick with the theme of the sub??:bigsmile:


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Mongrel714 said:


> So Rodney, I take it you vote to stick with the theme of the sub??:bigsmile:


:yes::yes::T

Black with the front silver(base/clear coat):yes::yes:


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

What program/software are you using to make the design?


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Rodney, I'm using Corel Draw for the general design, then Adobe Photoshop for the coloring / gradiets, 
And DS-21, I'm open to suggestions on the drivers, the planers were just a hold over from the line array earlier in this thread, I want these to sound as good as my budget can afford, I suppose I can put 4-500 dollars toward the drivers at this point, I realize X-overs are a problem, Ide lik to find a X-over pre made to start with that would suffice untill I know more about building them.
The Acendants are very cool looking, as far as the top baffle, that can be isolated from the main enclosure.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Guys, are there any decent 5-7" drivers that resemble the Sound Splinters? the only thing I've found so far are the Hi-Vi (?) that P X-press offers and I dont think they would fit the bill, any help would be appreciated!


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

By resemble, do you mean physically?

In any case, I'd take another look at Zaphaudio -- he has a listing of several drivers and their relative merits. The prices may be a little out of date, but they should give you an idea.

Also, you may not need to go so big. The line array I'm building right now is using these: Aurasound NS3-194-8E 3" full range paper cone. and a horn tweeter to handle the top 1.5 octaves. Note: I'll be boosting the bottom end to get a flat response down to ~80Hz. With so many drivers, I think you can manipulate the FR curve with less detrimental results than only one or two.

JCD


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Oh, and that sub is wicked looking!

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Thanks JCD, wait till its painted!! Ya, I did mean physically look like the S. Splinter, Alum cone no dust cap, I'm actually pulling away from the array project at the moment and going with a couple good drivers and a tweet per side, Ill do the Hmm.. or maybe a hybrid wouldnt be so bad right now.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Mongrel714 said:


> Ya, I did mean physically look like the S. Splinter, Alum cone no dust cap


Hmm.. that's a tough one. I can think of a handful of drivers out there that have an alumuminum cone, but they all either have a phase plug (e.g., some of the drivers from Seas) or they have a black dust cap (e.g., the on from Dayton). That may be a tough nut to crack.

In any case, I look forward to your future progress.

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

JCD said:


> Hmm.. that's a tough one. I can think of a handful of drivers out there that have an alumuminum cone, but they all either have a phase plug (e.g., some of the drivers from Seas) or they have a black dust cap (e.g., the on from Dayton). That may be a tough nut to crack.
> 
> In any case, I look forward to your future progress.
> 
> JCD


Thanks JCD, I checked out Zaph audio and learned alot, but there is only one driver that resembles my sub and it prob won't do the trick, no worries though, we'll find something here!


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm sure you will too.. it just takes time.

But to be clear, something like this is what you're looking for?








or would something like this be ok?









JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Heres a pic of what I'm looking for,actually this speaker looks pretty good on paper, please give me your thoughts on this and on having 3 mid bass and 1 tweeter, also which tweet, I would like to stay around 50-75 bucks apiece for tweets, here is what the outside dimensions will be on the enclosure.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Heres final design, the inside volume can be adjusted as needed, I've been reading alot at Zaph audio and will prob use one of his suggestions for drivers and X-over, I will prob build these before I paint the sub so I can do em all at once.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I was doubtful before about you being able to pull something like this off, but after seeing how your un-painted sub turned out, I'm eagerly awaiting the final product.

Just a note about using Zaph's design -- the driver/crossover design is specific to the box. Getting the internal volume is going to be important, but making sure that the width of your speaker matches the width of Zaph's design. His crossover should have some sort of BSC built in to it that will be wrong should the width be different. The ratio of the internal dimensions, and the related bracing, could also be important.

Just things to keep in mind. But like I said, I can't wait to see the final product.

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

JCD said:


> I was doubtful before about you being able to pull something like this off, but after seeing how your un-painted sub turned out, I'm eagerly awaiting the final product.
> 
> Just a note about using Zaph's design -- the driver/crossover design is specific to the box. Getting the internal volume is going to be important, but making sure that the width of your speaker matches the width of Zaph's design. His crossover should have some sort of BSC built in to it that will be wrong should the width be different. The ratio of the internal dimensions, and the related bracing, could also be important.
> 
> ...


Thanks JCD, I've never fooled with cross overs before so this will be a learning experiance, being as picky as I am I will prob have a few trys at it before its done, I'm sure I can mimic the internal volume, but the design will def be different as you can see from the overhead, but with everyones help, we can do it!


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

OH . . . . MY! Have you stirred up a hornets nest with THIS iteration or what!!?? LOL you're sumpin else kid.
If you thought there were issues with subs and how to get a consensus about getting from point A to 15Hz . . . . wait'll you make a semi final decision regarding mids and tweets and how to get "smoothly from 100HZ to 20, 000Hz.
Higher frequencies and their reproduction by todays sound devices leave you thousands of choices of speaker units and thousands of options putting them together as you have so eleoquently shown in your drawings. 
My first choice of course is your original idea drawing . But that has already started a flood of "you can't" responses. I think you CAN . . . . LOL. Go for it.

PS oh yeah, if your ear-sight has been damaged by playing in a band, tuning mids and highs will have to be done by spectrum analysis. And even then you'll have some guy that says, "I don't like that sound".


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

ISLAND1000 said:


> OH . . . . MY! Have you stirred up a hornets nest with THIS iteration or what!!?? LOL you're sumpin else kid.
> If you thought there were issues with subs and how to get a consensus about getting from point A to 15Hz . . . . wait'll you make a semi final decision regarding mids and tweets and how to get "smoothly from 100HZ to 20, 000Hz.
> Higher frequencies and their reproduction by todays sound devices leave you thousands of choices of speaker units and thousands of options putting them together as you have so eleoquently shown in your drawings.
> My first choice of course is your original idea drawing . But that has already started a flood of "you can't" responses. I think you CAN . . . . LOL. Go for it.
> ...


Ya, I expect the driver choices to be exciting, I am looking for a proven design and use the driver config from that, hopefuly that will make my life alittle easier.
And yes, I have a constant ring in my ears, Not a Pete Townsend problem, but bad enough, I definately protect the hearing I have left, thanks for your comments Phil:T


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Hey veryone, Hope you dont think I'm slacking here, been very busy at work, I am looking at a couple of designs on MTM type speaker projects to model my mains after, I think it would be much easier for my first attempt to use a proven design, here is a couple I'm looking at:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread/php4?t=11321
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/tritrix/index.cfm
Building a crossover from a diagram would help me to understand there construction much better than from scratch, I would model the enclosure from the projects above as close to original as posible of course working it into my design. I'm gonna stick to a low budget for my first try. let me know what you think:scratch:


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Thanks again thylantyr, you are a wealth of information, I like the drivers on that project, If you were doing this would you go with the 2.5 version crossover?? I'm working with his enclosure calcs for the tower enclosures but not getting them to come out right, but I'm rushing, got to get out the door, taking my Son to a wolf sanctuary today, talk to ya later.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Vas is recomended enclosure size, right??,


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

thylantyr said:


> I posted that because it's the same drivers with many different crossover designs, this gives
> you some flexibility if you want to experiment to see which ones sound best to you.


Awww... A X-over training exercise, thank you Sensai, I will make the X-over easy to get to on the back so I can experiment with them, thanks.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

The drivers used in those designs (as well as the designs themselves) are all very popular and are supposed to offer some great sound. If you go this route, and want to incorporate it into the design you've come up with, just make sure that you section off the area behind the drivers with the proper volume and that the speaker is as wide as the design calls for. That last part is going to be pretty important.

That being said, I'd like you to jump a little further up the food chain for the design -- especially since you've said you're going with a proven design. If I didn't know you already had the wood skills, I might be inclined to say OK with the designs you've referenced, but you've definitely got the wood skills, so I say go for a something you think will be the final product. It's a lot of work to get these things completed, so why double it up? Unless of course you intend to use these "practice" speakers as a second set for your garage or something similar.

Just my opinion.

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

JCD said:


> The drivers used in those designs (as well as the designs themselves) are all very popular and are supposed to offer some great sound. If you go this route, and want to incorporate it into the design you've come up with, just make sure that you section off the area behind the drivers with the proper volume and that the speaker is as wide as the design calls for. That last part is going to be pretty important.
> 
> That being said, I'd like you to jump a little further up the food chain for the design -- especially since you've said you're going with a proven design. If I didn't know you already had the wood skills, I might be inclined to say OK with the designs you've referenced, but you've definitely got the wood skills, so I say go for a something you think will be the final product. It's a lot of work to get these things completed, so why double it up? Unless of course you intend to use these "practice" speakers as a second set for your garage or something similar.
> 
> ...


Thanks Jacen, I def will stick with my design, I've been working with the numbers on the extended low end version, but Im having trouble getting my design around the box design, and, I may be feeling the effects of a 16 hour work day here, but, the box dimensions do not come out to his recomended sizes, 1.2 cu ft, and 1.7 cu ft, the extended bass versions dimensions would have to be much larger to come out to 1.7 cu ft. making my enclosure way to tall, so plan b would have to use the shape of my box to reach the 1.7 cu ft mark, which would mean having a 5 sided box, (9" baffle mounted on the front corner of enclosure) as long as my volume is right and I stick with a 9" baffle, do you think it will sound decent?? Thanks again!


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

A few comments/questions:


How deep is your cabinent as is? It doesn't look very deep now that I take a good look at it.
I wouldn't worry about going with the extended bass version -- you've already got a wicked looking sub to handle that area of the audio spectrum. Stick with the 1.2f^3 version
I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the 5 sided speaker -- here is the answer I think you were going for: I'd use the same general shape as you have currently but change the dimensions slightly. Instead of being 16" wide, make it 9". Since I can't tell what the depth is, make it 13.5". In other words. I'd probably build the design you have around a box that is going to be 9"x22"x13.5". 
Also, I can't tell, but are the sides rounded? Sort of like a tube with a slice taken off the front?

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

JCD said:


> A few comments/questions:
> 
> 
> How deep is your cabinent as is? It doesn't look very deep now that I take a good look at it.
> ...


All right, I've got this thing close to where it needs to be, The RS180 drivers call for .88 cu ft ea totaling out to 1.7 cu ft, how critical is it to build the enclosure to that number? the interior enclosure itself would be 9"w x 11"d x 42.25"h, making the exterior enclosure roughly 19"w x 20"d x 66-72"h, which isn't bad, but I would like to get the enclosure down to 60" tall, and some what narrower, check out the drawing let me know your thought, :coocoo: cheers

Oh yeah, I ordered my drivers today!!


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

I have nothing to add here except that I love your unique design and enthusiasm! 

I have the last parts of my speakers on the way as well. I'm hoping to prototype this weekend (fingers crossed). I'm taking the opposite approach as you -- I picked drivers in a very boring (flat, open) baffle. I figure I'll come up with an aesthetically pleasing design later. Talk to me in a couple of years when I'm still listening to my unpainted boring MDF baffle 

Good luck and keep up the posts and pics!


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Mongrel714 said:


> All right, I've got this thing close to where it needs to be, The RS180 drivers call for .88 cu ft ea totaling out to 1.7 cu ft, how critical is it to build the enclosure to that number? the interior enclosure itself would be 9"w x 11"d x 42.25"h, making the exterior enclosure roughly 19"w x 20"d x 66-72"h, which isn't bad, but I would like to get the enclosure down to 60" tall, and some what narrower, check out the drawing let me know your thought, :coocoo: cheers
> 
> Oh yeah, I ordered my drivers today!!


You can still go for the 1.2 cu ft box that they recommend for the "standard" configuration. It'll go plenty low enough since you've got your sub and will probably give you better performance in the higher frequencies. That being said, it looks like you're within ~3.2% of the extended bass version, so I think you'd be OK with that. However, I still see an issue with the width of the ultimate cabinet. You're interior volume appears to be fine, but the actual width you're saying is 19". The problem you've got here is the crossover that was developed for speaker is taking into account a 9" wide baffle when they designed their BSC. So, I think you're OK with the volume you're using, but I'm worried about the baffle width and how it is related to the crossover.

And I'm almost as excited as you about you starting this project! 
You're much faster and innovative than I am with your designs! 
I've been working on my latest projects for ~2 months and I'm still not fully assembled!

JCD


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I thought of some other quesitons :gah: :
How much bracing did you include in your calculation? 
And how big of a port did you assume? 
And, finally, how much volume did you calculate for the back of the speaker?

So many questions..:dumbcrazy:

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

JCD said:


> I thought of some other quesitons :gah: :
> How much bracing did you include in your calculation?
> And how big of a port did you assume?
> And, finally, how much volume did you calculate for the back of the speaker?
> ...


Wow, thanks guys, I guess I am pretty excited about this, I've done alot of different projects in my life but none of them have gave me the feeling that DIY speakers have, after hearing how my sub turned out and realizing the quality of product you can achieve I'm just blown away, and seeing the look on un-suspecting listners faces when you shake their spleen loose doesent hurt either!:devil:, so thank you Anthony and Jacen, your comments mean alot.
First off, my speaker enclosure box size is: 9" wide, 11" deep, and, 42.25" tall, after I add the wood to the outside of that enclosure to give it the shape, it will be, 19" wide, 20" deep, and 66-72" tall. As for bracing, I figured 2 diff sizes, two full braces which would support sides, front, back @ 30.75 cu in, (4-2.5" x 1.5" holes in that one), and two side braces which would be a 2" x .75" piece running side to side @ 9 cu in. 
The port will be 6.5" x 3", which comes out to 45.9 cu in of course this depends on final enclosure volume. as for the back of the speakers I could not find any info on that, and in my exausted state these last few days I didnt realize I could figure that on my own, I will do that later tonight, (the heat and humidity here in S.W. Florida is extreme this year and is wearing everyone out whos in it).
I'm going to go with your suggestion and drop it down to 1.2 Cu Ft. which would have a 3" x 8" port, the designer said we could use a 4" port if I was using alot of power, I like that idea, do you think it would be an improvement? 
I've attached a design I'm working on for a friend at work for his car, (Shhhhhh! don't tell anybody I posted an car audio pic here!) hope you like it.
I'm also excited about putting together the X-overs, I've always been amazed by electronic parts and what they do, I've also found a DIY project for a clean box I'm going to try out, looks lijke fun!
Looking forward to your responce guys, Later.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

> I've done alot of different projects in my life but none of them have gave me the feeling that DIY speakers have, after hearing how my sub turned out and realizing the quality of product you can achieve I'm just blown away, and seeing the look on un-suspecting listners faces when you shake their spleen loose doesent hurt either!


That's awesome. I got sucked into this one just like you -- it looked like fun, I had a good time with my first job and I liked the results. Now I'm working on projects 2 and 3 and already thinking about project 4, so prepare yourself! This could be just the beginning.




> after I add the wood to the outside of that enclosure to give it the shape, it will be, 19" wide, 20" deep, and 66-72" tall.


Yeah, I think that's going to be a problem. The crossover is (i'm assuming) compensating for the loss in acoustical output below a certain frequency that is based on the width of the baffle. The actual "enclosure" (i.e., the 1.2cu ft) is important for the driver's performance, but the width of the baffle is going to dictate the point at which the acoustical output of the driver starts to fall off.

With a 9" baffle, the bass output will start to roll off at 3013Hz, have a 3 db drop off at 507Hz and end with a 6db at 188Hz. 
With a 19" baffle, the 3 points are 1427Hz, 240Hz and 89.21Hz. 

I think this is going to be particularly important with a 2.5 situation since it's crossover is dependent (usually?) on this BSC. If I'm not mistaken, the second woofer will start it's output to compensate for the BSC.



> I'm going to go with your suggestion and drop it down to 1.2 Cu Ft. which would have a 3" x 8" port, the designer said we could use a 4" port if I was using alot of power, I like that idea, do you think it would be an improvement?


I think you'll get better performance -- I certainly hope so since you're changing! as for the 3" vs. 4" -- I don't know. I wouldn't think so, but MAYBE you'll hear some chuffing at high volumes, but I seriously doubt it. Someone better at this stuff can hopefully chime in on this one.

Some other points -- I'd make sure the tweeter is at your ear level while sitting down. ~39"-41". The drivers should also be as close together as possible. 

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Heres the layout top and side view, the outside enclosure angles back from 9" to 19" there is a point coming out above it, but it angles up also as you can see on side view.
Ill follow your advice on speaker placement also, BTW Jacen, have you got any pics of your project posted? I'de like to check them out, G'night


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Hey All,
Got my woofers in today, you can really tell a difference in these and the **** they put in the cheapy enclosures.
Now on to todays question, Im working on my cross over design from Dr K's design 2.5 off of parts express DIY section, Im trying to get the working x- over from the schematic, I hope one of you cross over wizards will check my layout to see if it will work. 
Also, there is an inductor on there listed as 16GA STEEL 5.000mH I can't find a STEEL inductor anywhere, and a parts express tech said I could prob use a reg inductor, would this work?? Opps, I missed an inductor on my top diagram, just check the bottom one, lol.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Man, I hope someone drops in and answers your question, because I don't know either. My assuming is a regular inductor would be ok, but I just don't know for sure. Can you provide a link to the site where the schematic is located?

Oh, and I've posted the beginnings of my project here.

JCD


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

They probably mean steel core inductor. They are still wire wound, but the center is a metal core instead of air. Because of that they are much smaller. Metal core inductors can saturate, meaning that the core can't take any more magnetic field and the relative inductance changes. Air cores can't saturate, so they hold their nominal value regardless of the power going through them.

One thing not mentioned is the DC resistance that crossover design is expecting. All inductors have an internal resistance, due to the massive length of wire involved in making them. Ideally, you want as low as possible, but sometimes you can use that resistance to your advantage, for instance if you want to "pad" that crossover section down a bit you can use an inductor that has a slightly higher internal resistance.

But since this is your woofer section, I imagine you won't want need any padding. In that case, use the largest gauge you can afford (larger gauge -- smaller number -- less resistance). 18 gauge at a minimum, 15 gauge ideal. However, for 5mH that will be a VERY expensive inductor. $30 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=255-442&DID=7

Here's an iron core of the same value for $32
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=255-820
(it's probably designed to avoid the saturation problem, but would still have some distortion issues -- that is less of a problem with the bass section of a speaker)

Much cheaper, but probably has more distortion than the two above:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=255-116

Here's the steel laminate inductor at 5 mH. I hate that they don't mention the DC resistance. http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pr...d=870&osCsid=7994766ba23d48980b6205b11a62e699

So, enough information to be dangerous. Air core is the only way to avoid distortion and saturation, however the better ferrous, iron, or steel core inductors are designed to avoid all that as much as possible. The steel core is definitely the best bargain, but I would contact Madisound and make sure the DCR is less than 0.25 Ohms.

I hope this helps. Good luck with your build.
AC


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Jacen, your project looks awesome, Bet it sounds as good as it looks, The link for the project and crossover is: http://www.rjbaudio.com/RS180MTM/rs180-rs28-mtm.html 
It is the 2.5 version x-over I'm looking at, Hope you can check that out Anthony and let me know what you think!
Now for some pics of my new babies, these speakers sound clearer in this test box than my speakers I'm running now! (Onkyos) running full range at low volume I can hear cymbals and high notes,(listening to Dream Theater, they always have neat little added things in there music) I didnt have a wooden box handy to test the speakers as Parts Express suggested so this works fine, and no scratches.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Those sure are purty.. it's just like Christmas, except, you got what you wanted! :bigsmile:

As for the STEEL inductor.. you know, I'd consider going to the source. Only because he lists it on his website, I'll post his e-mail address here: [email protected]. Maybe he'll respond to an e-mailed question.

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

JCD said:


> Those sure are purty.. it's just like Christmas, except, you got what you wanted! :bigsmile:
> 
> As for the STEEL inductor.. you know, I'd consider going to the source. Only because he lists it on his website, I'll post his e-mail address here: [email protected]. Maybe he'll respond to an e-mailed question.
> 
> JCD


Waiting on an answer from the gentleman!:help:


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Hey guys, started cutting wood for my mains!


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm totally excited!!! I can't wait to see how these guys turn out!

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Wow, thanks Jacen, your excitement inspires me to finish these!


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Worked on the interior enclosure today, One is neary done, front baffle is not attached yet, still have to add bracing and cut tweeter hole.

heres a pic of an old workhorse saw, been underwater twice, hard telling how old she is.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm lookin' forward to seeing the finished product as well... :T


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Thanks guys, I'm getting geared up to paint the sub also, The wife is getting tired of the big wooden box in her living room!


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Mongrel, good progress! I can't wait to see the sub painted, that is a really cool idea. I'm sure these are going to look killer once you're done and have them all set up.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Hey guys, sorry for delay in posting, my job is holding me hostage and will for the next couple weeks, I'm filling in for our sales manager while hes on sick leave as well as doing my job too, so we'll get done what we can! later all.
And thank you for the kind comments Qwen!!


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## Fred33 (Sep 4, 2007)

Very cool designs... Keep posting the pictures. I love to see the progress on everyones projects.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Hello all, well we have a little progress here, I Ordered a couple parts express crossovers and some less expensive tweeters untill I get the permanent crossovers built, and I have to say I'm very surprised at how great they sound, crossed over at 3,500Hz the RS180-s drivers, the tweeters which are dayton 1" titaniums, not sure on the model, sound fantastic, I can't wait to finish with the real components, these x-overs and tweeters will end up in the big "Sharp" enclosures you see in the pics below, we're replacing the drivers in them for my son, well the x-over wont, have to have a 3 way.
Here are some pics, this is just temp paint on the enclosure, the sides and back will not get paint as they will be covered by the rest of the cabnet, also a pic of my new toy, my old Toshiba finally bit it so I moved up to a 17" screen, only draw back is win Vista, I like the way it looks but hate the way it acts, kinda like all the women in my life, lol, Talk at ya later.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Has anybody ever tried to do a split center channel with each side angeled like this? what are the pros and cons?


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

Lookin' good so far.

As for your center design. I would stick with one tweeter in the middle. Otherwise, you will get a wicked comb filtering effect that will sound really weird. But the sloped sides could widen up your dispersion pattern a bit for the woofers (not that they need it much).

But if you are trying to keep with an aesthetic, I don't see much harm in sloping the sides back a bit.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

> As for your center design. I would stick with one tweeter in the middle. Otherwise, you will get a wicked comb filtering effect that will sound really weird.


Or put the tweeters on the ends, could be enough separation to reduce/eliminate comb filtering.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

It's really tough to design a functional center channel to match the other speakers, I've thought about just making a short version of the tower, but nixed that idea.
Could I use a smaller driver say a 5" of the same series, or should I stick with the 7"? The enclosure would end up quite large using the latter. I hope to have the right side main put together this weekend, Im gonna experiment with some polyurethane and laquer and see which will work better, catch yoos guys later!


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Mongrel714 said:


> Could I use a smaller driver say a 5" of the same series, or should I stick with the 7"? The enclosure would end up quite large using the latter. I hope to have the right side main put together this weekend, Im gonna experiment with some polyurethane and laquer and see which will work better, catch yoos guys later!


Ok, the right anwer is -- no. No matter if it's in the same manufacturer/line or not, different drivers will sound different. My opinion is that it's CRITICAL that the front LCR all sound the same, or at least as close as possible. Imagine someone talking while panning from left to right.. the timbre/tone will change when they move from the left speaker to the center and then again to the right speaker -- with that, the illusion is lost.

Now, maybe you can get it close enough that you won't notice.. but, I'd play it safe and go with the same drivers if at all possible.

I just finished my sub and I used Polyeuro.. as soon as tax season is over, I'm going to post the process with all the relavent photos. Hopefully by then I can even get REW to work on my laptop (I think my laptop is junk though -- maybe I can get my desktop to work though) so I can post some measurements as well. Anyway, the whole point of the paragraph is that you can see how the Poly looks. Not that you probably don't already know already.

Good to see you're making progress again.

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Hello Jacen, thanks for the quick answer, I see what you mean, The top of my entertainment center is 7' long soo...at least I have room for a large center channel, I've been working 50+ hours per week, been to wore out to do anything at home, but the need for sound is outweighing being tired,lol, now that I've heard how well its going to sound I cant stop till it's done! later.


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

I was looking at several different Parts Express Dayton Ref drivers for my project. Even though they were all the same series, the frequency response curves and onset of cone breakup (or other distortions) were different for each size. So just FYI, even if you go to a different size driver the timbre will be different or a bit of distortion in one that was not present in others.

As for exact matching, I am amazed how my open baffle center is matching my magnepans. I can only hear the difference in pink noise, music and dialog pan seamlessly. If I hadn't heard it myself, I wouldn't have believed it. So it is possible to voice a slightly different design to match others; but I think a little luck was involved as well (in my case).

Best of luck to you!


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## thekl0wn (Jul 5, 2007)

Project is looking good... I love the "outside the box" look of it!


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

thekl0wn said:


> Project is looking good... I love the "outside the box" look of it!


Thanks, it's definately taking some "outside the box" fabrication techniques, and a real learning experiance.


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## Doug Plumb (Mar 16, 2007)

I think the big advantage of home building speakers is that you can make a diffraction free (relatively free) enclosure.

To solve the Xover problem use an electronic crossover such as one from Behringer.

RPlusD software is built for home builders of loudspeakers that recognise the advantage of electronic crossovers in creating complex filters easily.


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

I'm gonna stick with the same drivers, I don't want to chance it!! I can't wait to get my center channel done now.


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## Doug Plumb (Mar 16, 2007)

You should be able to stick with your drivers and make a great speaker. Driver quality is not that important.

What matters is baffle acoustics, the box and the crossover. The crossover is tricky thats why you should use an electronic crossover. The electronic crossover is both better and far easier. You just need two more power amps.

You can use RPlusD to set the crossover correctly using methods better & unlike other software.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Umm.. it's been a while.. any news? :nerd: 

JCD


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

hey guys, sorry for the delay, ran across a couple good deals, bought a 660 yamaha Raptor for $150 from a friend, he blew the motor after a rebuild and just got sick of it, we've got a yz250 in it untill I get the 660 rebuilt, also got a couple killer go carts, one I just got running for my sons birthday, allthough he likes my Raptor better! with my sons birthday and Christmas coming up Ive had to slow down somewhat, But I've still got alot to do finish wise so we'll get something done here soon!


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

Uhhhhh . . . . . wait a minute . . . . . I don't see where it . . . . . what is the fs of that one with the four wheels?


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## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

Is this what happens when an audiophile has a midlife crisis? he stops building speakers and goes out buying motorbikes and go-carts?


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## jwhite8086 (Feb 4, 2007)

That Rollcage on the gocart may make a great open baffle setup, or even better a SLLT you can drive


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## Mongrel714 (May 23, 2007)

Hmmm, not a bad idea.... wonder what kind of power I can hook up to get a sub on that cart??? lol, my life is one big crisis so I fill it up with many hobbies, I'm trying to figure out what I can do with those wasted hours when I sleep!:snoring::rofl:, 
But seriously, I have my sons cart running now, getting ready to move into a new house, and I think I'm doing a new entertainment center for our equipment, and finishing my mains and center speaker, we'll have a two car garage now, read: one car and workshop. 
Also going to re-design my sub, just not doing all it was made to do...but thats another thread, cheers! and Happy New Year to all.


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