# Are there sound differences with subs?



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

I currently have an RCA one thats 10 years old and delivers up to 200 watts. I was wondering if there is any difference on how it sounds between brands/features?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Oh Absolutely! There is a huge difference in subs available now particularly if you start looking at subs that start around $500 and up.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

What kind of difference aside from the wattage?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

well for starters much better depth, going below 20Hz at a reasonable level is important for movies. That RCA would likely not even hit 30Hz. Amp design has also improved a fair bit and so has the design of the enclosure.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Just like one would expect there to be differences in sound between loudspeakers of different brands/designs/features/price there are differences in sound between various subwoofers. I could tell the difference immediately going from a 10+ year old Acoustic Research S112PS sub to a new Rythmik F12. The quality and extension of the bass is so much better and deeper, respectively.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

How can I know if it is capable of doing lower than 20Hz?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Your RCA defiantly wont go below 30Hz, Generally you would need to go to the manufacturers website to find out but unless you get into something that costs over $500 your not going to even come close.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

How come the ones I have looked at like Velodyne or even other brands its range is 20 or 34 plus but I dont see anthing under 20 Hz on specs.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Epik Legend and Empire
Rythmik, various models
SVS, various models
Elemental Designs, various models
Velodyne Digital Drive
Martin Logan Descent and Depth
REL, various models
HSU, various models
...too many others to list I'm sure!


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> How come the ones I have looked at like Velodyne or even other brands its range is 20 or 34 plus but I dont see anthing under 20 Hz on specs.


If you didnt find anything under 20Hz you might not be looking hard enough, my subs are rated at 18Hz and run about $500 each, heres the specs:

http://hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk3.html

Dont get too hung-up on getting below 20Hz. As long as you are getting close (30Hz isnt) to 20Hz and review measurements are verifying meaningful output to 20Hz, youre good. So how do you know what manufactures have those "review measurements are verifying meaningful output to 20Hz" and youre not just going by what the manufacture's published specs are? This kind of performance has been established for certain manufactures and these are some of the finest: 



> Epik Legend and Empire
> Rythmik, various models
> SVS, various models
> Elemental Designs, various models
> ...


I love my pair of Hsus' (pronounced shoes) but frankly youll find great performance in any manufactures in the list above


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

For example this SVS PB12 nsd has a frequency response of 18-150 Hz and for the money is very hard to beat.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Matter of fact, Marshall (eugovector) just got the PB-12 NSD and did a review of it. Go here to see it.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

can you get the same thunder effect by turning up the sub volume regardless of brand and if its under 20hz or not?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> can you get the same thunder effect by turning up the sub volume regardless of brand and if its under 20hz or not?


No, as a matter of fact you will damage a sub if you force it to do something it is not rated to do.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Here are the specs for my RCA sub....200 watts rms, 4 ohms at 1 % thd. Crossover 50hz-200 hz variable. Frequency response 36hz-200 hz. Is this ok or should it be better? It is 10 years old.


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

asere said:


> Here are the specs for my RCA sub....200 watts rms, 4 ohms at 1 % thd. Crossover 50hz-200 hz variable. Frequency response 36hz-200 hz. Is this ok or should it be better? It is 10 years old.


Whether it is ok or if it should be better are subjective questions with subjective answers; actually, more subjective questions. Do you like it as is? Are you willing to invest in making it better? 

The objective truth is that when the audio engineers mix the sound to be put on your movies they include frequencies that your current system cannot recreate. I like those frequencies, as do most of the members of this forum.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

I hear what you guys are saying about frequency under 20hz is better for movie watching however what is the volume knob on the sub for other than make the bass louder? By turning up the sub volume won't it still give you the rumble effect as a high end sub or one that does below 20hz?


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

asere said:


> I hear what you guys are saying about frequency under 20hz is better for movie watching however what is the volume knob on the sub for other than make the bass louder? By turning up the sub volume won't it still give you the rumble effect as a high end sub or one that does below 20hz?


Yes and no. Mostly no. Look for a frequency response chart for your model, If you can find it. I highly doubt the RCA is capable of producing 20 hz at all. As for using the volume knob to give you more low end, that will cause more problems. You would have to raise the volume 8-10 dB to get the right level at 30 hz, which would mean that 40 hz is going to be 8-10 dB too loud. You could add a decent eq to fix that, but the money would be better spent on upgrading the sub.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> I hear what you guys are saying about frequency under 20hz is better for movie watching however what is the volume knob on the sub for other than make the bass louder? By turning up the sub volume won't it still give you the rumble effect as a high end sub or one that does below 20hz?


Are you sure you dont work for Bose? Sorry little joke and I couldnt resist. To answer your question, there is no substitute for frequency response.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

You guys have really helped out thanks!


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## CdnTiger (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

You could also check out Chase Home Theater, a new HTS sponsor. They've supposedly got some good subwoofer value products, and the owner has posted lots of material on their website to educate the masses.

As an aside, simply turning up the sub's volume to get lower frequencies to be audible would likely just cause "one note bass", which means the dominant frequency would overpower everything else in the sub's range and you won't have gained much, if anything. A better sub will be able to play all frequencies in it's range at the same level and with much more clarity.


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

If you want more specific suggestions, you could tell us your budget and what it is that you listen to. You will probably get more for your money from an internet direct manufacturer.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

I like to watch movies more than anything. My budget would be around 300 bucks, however I know it is imposible to find a sub that does less than 20hz for that price range. Also do all subs have a volume knob?


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

they all have volume knobs as far as I know. it is possible to get a sub that plays below 20hrtz but not loudly. A sealed sub with room gain could go very deep. You could try used.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> I like to watch movies more than anything. My budget would be around 300 bucks, however I know it is imposible to find a sub that does less than 20hz for that price range. Also do all subs have a volume knob?


A few people have raved about the Dayton sub for its price point and power - Jack has suggested this to many people with a sub-$300 budget. On the downside, it does only go to 25hz, but if you extend your budget @$50, you could actually get 2.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

If you can do $350, the Elemental Designs A2-250 will provide sufficient low end output for most rooms.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

The specs for my current RCA sub 12inch woofer....200 watts rms, 4 ohms at 1 % thd. Crossover 50hz-200 hz variable. Frequency response 36hz-200 hz.
If I get the Velodyne model DEQ 8R which is only an 8 inch woofer with a frequency respose of 17-240hz and a low pass crossover of 40-120hz will it be more boomy than my current 12 inch sub?


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

That Velodyne only does 32Hz -3dB which is no better than your current sub. While the DEQ 8R may be able to produce a 17 Hz tone, it cannot do so very loudly. Also, I don't believe most want bass that is "boomy" they want accurately reproduced bass.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

So am I better of with my current 12 inch woofer instead of the 8 inch even if my current ones does not go below 20hz?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

If your budget is only $300, yes your not really "upgrading" if you replace it with something in that price range.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

No, you would be better off getting a new sub that has the low frequency extension you want. For a mere $50 more than your budget the Elemental Designs A2-250 will get you there.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Someone sent me the link below for this sub. Can someone please look at it and tell me if its a good buy? It does not have a lower frequency response lower than 20 but does as low as 24.
http://www.amazon.com/Acoustech-H-10.../dp/B0006DNW6U


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

No, that sub is not very good quality those numbers posted for frequency response are not going to be very accurate.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Why are the numbers not very accurate? Can we say the same for any product even if others do less than 20hz?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Not for the price, If you want a sub that goes deep and sounds clean your going to have to spend more than your budget of $300 there is no way to get around that unless you find something used.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

On the manufaturer's website it retails for 499. Designed with the assistance of Hsu Research Engineering.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

I think at this point we have given you as much info as we can to help you make a good informed decision.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

I understand and it is not that I am questioning you I know you know better than I do I am just learning. Thanks for your help.


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

There are a lot of knowledgeable members here on this forum and their specialty is subwoofers. They recognize the attributes necessary to reproduce the "thunder" and loud low audio that makes movie watching an exciting pass time.
A 10" subwoofer will rarely be enough sub to satisfy someone who watches movies and expects the explosions and crashes and helicopter blades to sound as loud as the real thing.
The audio range 20Hz to 200Hz is only one capacity necessary to reproduce the subwoofer experience. You need POWER too, LOTS OF POWER, a thousand watts if you can afford it! Anything less will be a compromise.
Search this website for subwoofer discussions, there are many that will help educate you about the equipment and brands. Your RCA was just the beginning of your subwoofer journey. Enjoy. You might just become one of us DIYers.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

I had done some heavy research on bic (the maker of the this sub youre looking at) and was always amazed with all the gushing user reviews but non-existent pro reviews. From all indications they make good stuff, they have a very strong following, theyre sold internet direct only (usually indicates a good value) and in competition with klipish's entry line. Frankly, I want to see pro measurements in a review and not just subjective listening and users reviews on a product, kinda like _all_ the sub manufactures listed by jackfish on page 1. In _that_ list of manufactures their performance has been measured and verified, not just published specs by a manufacture. For what its worth heres a review from a site I personally never heard of, but again, its a subjective review with no measurements....

http://audaud.com/2004/03/component-review-part-1-of-4/

In the end it might not be a bad choice if your budget is drop-dead. Otherwise, spending $500 on a sub that has verified performance is highly recommended.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



TypeA said:


> I had done some heavy research on bic (the maker of the this sub youre looking at) and was always amazed with all the gushing user reviews but non-existent pro reviews. From all indications they make good stuff, they have a very strong following, theyre sold internet direct only (usually indicates a good value) and in competition with klipish's entry line. Frankly, I want to see pro measurements in a review and not just subjective listening and users reviews on a product, kinda like _all_ the sub manufactures listed by jackfish on page 1. In _that_ list of manufactures their performance has been measured and verified, not just published specs by a manufacture. For what its worth heres a review from a site I personally never heard of, but again, its a subjective review with no measurements....
> 
> http://audaud.com/2004/03/component-review-part-1-of-4/
> 
> In the end it might not be a bad choice if your budget is drop-dead. Otherwise, spending $500 on a sub that has verified performance is highly recommended.


According to that review asere should get the Acoustech H100, but I doubt it could hang with the likes of the subs on my previous list.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



jackfish said:


> According to that review asere should get the Acoustech H100


I got the impression that it was when compared to the klipsch sub.




jackfish said:


> I doubt it could hang with the likes of the subs on my previous list.


Same can be said of klipsch subs and iirc some of them are $500+


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Sorry I am still learning here. When it comes to subs I hear that the sub needs to match the speakers. In what ways?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> Sorry I am still learning here. When it comes to subs I hear that the sub needs to match the speakers. In what ways?


Thats false, subs do not need to match your speaker in any way. Speakers should match each other in tonal quality but subs it does not matter.


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> Sorry I am still learning here. When it comes to subs I hear that the sub needs to match the speakers. In what ways?


It isn't as critical to match a sub to your speakers as it is to match your speakers to each other. But...different subs do have different characteristics. Unless you spend more money where the sub will do everything well, you have to choose whether volume, accuracy, or size of enclosure is more important to you. I went from a ported sub (SVS PB10-NSD) to a sealed one (Epik Legend) and noticed a definite improvement in accuracy, lack of boominess, extension, and ability to disappear into the room. But I also lost some couch shaking effect in some movies.
To answer your question, it isn't so much about 'matching' sub to speakers but matching priorities, imo. 
So, if you want speakers that excel with music then you'll choose a sub that is musical. And so forth...


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

I am looking for one that is not boomy yet still be able to hear the effects on movies even at low volume. The current one that I have only goes down to 35hz so the avr volume and sub volume has to be increased. Room shaking sub I am not too sure I want now since I have one little one and another one due next month. My wife would not be happy with the room shaking lol.


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

The good thing about (ALL) subs is that they can be attenuated ie: turned down. They don't HAVE to be blasting at full power all the time. If the WAF thinks the sub is too loud, turn it down . . . . until she is out of earshot.
If a sub has a bulge in the frequency response range then that sub is not a good one. A sub should have, as near as possible, a FLAT frequency response. Your ear usually likes the FR to be flat. However, if your personal taste is to emphasize the BOOM BOX sound, that can be done with an extra piece of equipment called an EQ (equalizer). 
With today's equipment options, almost ANY response curve is possible. 
The Behringer iNUKE NU3000 amplifier even has an equalizer built-in so you can run a sub and "tune" it too. Very cool.
The field of audio equipment is in a state of change which follows the state of change in electronics and materials. Amplifiers used to be called "high" powered if they were 200 watts. Now an amplifier is "high" powered at 4000 watts!
Speakers used to be able to reach 15,000 HZ +- 6db now with new materials and technology speakers can reach 20,000 +- 3db and with very little distortion.
On the low end of the sound spectrum a sub driver used to be able to reproduce frequencies as low as 20Hz. Now there are giant 18-21" drivers weighing 70 to 80 lbs which can reach 5Hz AND at an astonishing 100dbs SPL.
The speaker boxes are no longer just empty boxes. engineers and scientists have found a way to fold sound waves inside the enclosures and install ports making the driver more efficient and more linear. Acoustical materials have been designed to tame unwanted reflections inside these Hi-tech enclosures.
Consumers individual homes now have "Theater" areas. Some owners have seating, huge screens, a wall full of speakers, and even a popcorn machine, making a trip to the local movie theater for entertainment, no longer necessary.
Your level of involvement in this awesome adventure depends on your willingness to get involved and to some extent your pocket book.
What are YOU gonna do about it?


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

My family room is opened with the kitchen but the family room itself measures 17 by 14. I was looking at getting Epic, Rithmik, velodyne, Svs, or even Hsu. What size/brand is good based on the measurements I don't want boomy just good smooth movie watching bass.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> My family room is opened with the kitchen but the family room itself measures 17 by 14. I was looking at getting Epic, Rithmik, velodyne, Svs, or even Hsu. What size/brand is good based on the measurements I don't want boomy just good smooth movie watching bass.


Size/brand is recommended based on verified and true performance. As long as you are shopping off the recommended list found on page 1 you will get a "good" sub. Personally, I like down-firing as the driver is more protected and thats one less grill I need to maintain. Thats part of the reason I went with the Hsu subs (the other being the Rosenut finish) but, again, any of the manufactures listed on page 1 will do just as well as a Hsu.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

How important is having a subwoofer that comes with the mic to eq the sub to the room like for example the Velodyne DEQ 10R model has eq. Will Audyssey take care of the eq instead of having to use the sub's?


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

It depends on which Audyssey you're talking about. 
This Audyssey page compares the different levels of correction. The lowest form has no subwoofer correction.
http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/multeq


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## informel (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> How come the ones I have looked at like Velodyne or even other brands its range is 20 or 34 plus but I dont see anthing under 20 Hz on specs.


I have a Velodyne DD-15 and beleive me it goes below 20Hz. Also if you go with a better sub you may need some time to get use to it. See if your sub only goes to 35Hz and you have a note at 25Hz, you will only hear the second harmonic (50Hz), then with a more capable sub you will find that it sound diffrent because your sub will now reproduce the 25 Hz.

Also with more capable sub you will see that the special sound effects will be much more impressive.

The Velodyne DD-15 has an internal amp of 1250 W RMS, if you think this is a lot, you can look at peoples project here. Some of them have 4000 Watts, yes this is a lot, but reproducing the lower notes with authority requires a lot of power.

If I had found this forum before buying my Velodyne, I would have build my subwoofer, all the info is here to build one from start, a lot of them are better than the comercial ones, because in order to sell them, they try to make them as small as possible.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Below are the specs for the Elemental Design Brand sub. Is it a good buy? The specs look good however the sub is not attractive in my opinion for a family room. I wish I could post pics here. Maybe someone can google it. 


A2 - 300 Subwoofer
Item Status: Custom - Built to Order | Item: A2-300 
List Price: $1,025.00 
Your Price: $415.00 
Select Foot Style (More Info): Spike - Included Hourglass - $17.50 Extra
Select Finish (More Info): Matte - Included Gloss Black + $150.00 Bamboo + $250.00 Maple + $200.00 Cherry + $200.00 Walnut + $200.00
Quantity: 





Driver Size 12" 
Driver Quantity 1 
Driver Excursion 15.1mm 
Total Driver Linear Displacement 1645.92cm³ 
Room Tuning 20Hz 
Frequency Response (+/-3dB) 18-100Hz 
Amplifier RMS Power 200W 
Cabinet Type Vented 
Shipping Weight 69 lbs 
Internal Size 2.45ft³ 
External Size 3.70ft³ 
Width 18.00" 
Height 18.00" 
Depth 21.5" 
Vent Size 4" 
Amplifier Voltage 115V 
Included Crossover Yes 
Crossover Frequencies 40-160Hz 
Phase Switch Yes 
Line Level Input Yes 
RCA Level Input Yes 
Level Control Yes


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

The Elemental Design A2 is a good sub for the money. If thats all you can afford its probably your best option and would be better than your current sub.


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Elemental Designs

The A2-300 is a down firing (ported) sub. The round port is on a side of the enclosure. I think it IS a good buy but so are all the other models of ED subs. Why is this sub NOT attractive in your opinion? The ED subs are considered 1st class finished pieces? If you want a sub with the driver on the side then buy the A3S-250 or the A3-250. All the ED sub info is available online.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=2_41

Here's a list of the ED subs with some statistics.


A7 - 900 Subwoofer
Model : A7 - 900 Subwoofer
Subwoofer Driver Size : 18" x 2
Power : 1300W
Dimensions : W - 26.00", H - 49.5", D - 27.25"
Frequency Response : 15-100Hz
Weight : 395 lbs
Price : $2,500.00
View A7 - 900 Subwoofer


P7 - 650 Subwoofer
Model : P7 - 650 Subwoofer
Subwoofer Driver Size : 13" x 2
Power : 1300W
Dimensions : W - 15.0", H - 48.0", D - 15.0"
Frequency Response : 16-100Hz
Weight : 330 lbs
Price : $2,100.00
View P7 - 650 Subwoofer
A7s - 650 Subwoofer


Model : A7s - 650 Subwoofer
Subwoofer Driver Size : 13" x 2
Power : 1300 Watts RMS
Dimensions : W - 16", H - 38", D - 16"
Frequency Response : 16-100Hz
Weight : 215 Lbs
Price : $1,950.00
View A7s - 650 Subwoofer


A7 - 450 Subwoofer
Model : A7 - 450 Subwoofer
Subwoofer Driver Size : 18" x 1
Power : 1300W
Dimensions : W - 25.00", H - 37.00", D - 30"
Frequency Response : 16-100Hz
Weight : 300 lbs
Price : $1,650.00
View A7 - 450 Subwoofer


A7 - 350 Subwoofer
Model : A7 - 350 Subwoofer
Subwoofer Driver Size : 15" x 1
Power : 1300W
Dimensions : W - 20.0", H - 28.0", D - 24.0"
Frequency Response : 18-100Hz
Weight : 215 lbs
Price : $1,200.00
View A7 - 350 Subwoofer


A7S - 450 Subwoofer
Model : A7S - 450 Subwoofer
Subwoofer Driver Size : 18" x 1
Power : 1300W
Dimensions : W - 22.25", H - 22.25" - w/ Iso Feet 22.75", D - 22.25" - w/ Grill 23.5"
Frequency Response : 22-100Hz Un-eQ'd
Weight : 140 lbs
Price : $850.00
View A7S - 450 Subwoofer


A5 - 350 Subwoofer
Model : A5 - 350 Subwoofer
Subwoofer Driver Size : 15" x 1
Power : 500W
Dimensions : W - 19.00", H - 25.00", D - 24.75"
Frequency Response : 18-100Hz
Weight : 108 lbs
Price : $800.00
View A5 - 350 Subwoofer


A3 - 300 Subwoofer
Model : A3 - 300 Subwoofer
Subwoofer Driver Size : 12" x 1
Power : 300W
Dimensions : W - 18.00", H - 20.5", D - 21"
Frequency Response : 18-100Hz
Weight : 86 lbs
Price : $600.00
View A3 - 300 Subwoofer


A5s - 300 Subwoofer
Model : A5s - 300 Subwoofer
Subwoofer Driver Size : 12" x 1
Power : 500W
Dimensions : W - 15.5", H - 15.5", D - 17.25"
Frequency Response : 19-100Hz
Weight : 69lbs
Price : $550.00
View A5s - 300 Subwoofer


A3 - 250 Subwoofer
Model : A3 - 250 Subwoofer
Subwoofer Driver Size : 10" x 1
Power : 300W
Dimensions : W - 15.75", H - 18.5", D - 20"/20.75" With Grill"
Frequency Response : 18-100 Hz
Weight : 70 lbs.
Price : $450.00
View A3 - 250 Subwoofer
A2 - 300 Subwoofer


Model : A2 - 300 Subwoofer
Subwoofer Driver Size : 12" x 1
Power : 200W
Dimensions : W - 18.00", H - 18.00", D - 21.5"
Frequency Response : 18-100Hz
Weight : 69 lbs
Price : $415.00
View A2 - 300 Subwoofer
A3S - 250 Subwoofer


Model : A3S - 250 Subwoofer
Subwoofer Driver Size : 10" x 1
Power : 300W
Dimensions : W - 14.25", H - 14.25", D - 14.25"
Frequency Response : 25-100Hz
Weight : 35 lbs
Price : $350.00
View A3S - 250 Subwoofer



Model : A2 - 250 Subwoofer
Subwoofer Driver Size : 10" x 1
Power : 200W
Dimensions : W - 13.75", H - 13.75", D - 24.5"
Frequency Response : 18-100Hz
Weight : 58 lbs
Price : $350.00
View A2 - 250 Subwoofer


Trademarks .
© 2001 - 2010 Elemental Designs Corporation. All Rights reserved.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

I guess it is because I am used to the subs with a front grill on them.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> I guess it is because I am used to the subs with a front grill on them.


Do you want something that works or looks like you expect it to? Elemental Designs subwoofers offer great performance and a great value. Get one that fits your budget and enjoy! Wow, six pages!


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Take your time. There are lots of choices available in your price and size range. Read the reviews before you commit. Figure out first where your comfort level is and for sure decide how important a "front grill" is in your decision. I too like a front firing sub with a grill . . . . but I also like getting the most performance for my dollar. There is NOTHING more disappointing than spending money on a piece of equipment only to find that after a while you find you want something different.
Time spent now in researching will save you angst down the road.


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

If you're in a hurry, be wary of Elemental Designs. They make great subs, by all accounts, but there have been a number of reports of issues with them getting things out the door, lately, and quality control issues with the stuff they do manage to ship.

They seem to be good with making things right, eventually, but just bear that in mind if you have any sort of a timetable in mind. Of course, you could also have a super-easy no problem transaction... you never know. But I've seen just enough reports of issues that it has stuck in my mind a bit.


----------



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Yes I know what you mean, I called ED today and the subs are on backorder. The guy told me it takes up to 3 weeks to ship.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Bamboo finish huh? Interesting, very interesting. onder:


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## informel (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

just saw a used HSU VTF-3 on Ebay
spec frequency response is rated as 18Hz or 22Hz to 125Hz, +/-1dB,


----------



## informel (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



informel said:


> just saw a used HSU VTF-3 on Ebay
> spec frequency response is rated as 18Hz or 22Hz to 125Hz, +/-1dB,


forget it, it was sold for 395$


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Thanks for the Ebay info.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> I hear what you guys are saying about frequency under 20hz is better for movie watching however what is the volume knob on the sub for other than make the bass louder? By turning up the sub volume won't it still give you the rumble effect as a high end sub or one that does below 20hz?


That isn't a volume knob, it's a gain knob. In fact you should never just try to make the bass "louder". The bass level should be reasonably "matched" to the rest of the level. The point of the gain knob is for you to take a Sound Pressure Level Meter, and match the level of the subwoofer, to the level produced by your mains, on the same signal from your receiver. This also means that you need to start with capable mains because a lot of meaningful bass is in the region from 80hz to 200hz, which a subwoofer will rarely cover without giving away its location.

Beyond that, bass isn't just a "rumble effect". 20hz to our ears is actually quieter at the same sound pressure level as 40hz, which is quieter than 80hz. Our ears, and bodies however, perceive each of these frequencies differently. It's like the difference between a "kick drum" and a "snare drum" - it's not supposed to all "sound the same. If bass all sounds the same to you then you have a very poorly set up system unfortunately. 

Now getting lower in frequency without losing SPL is about being able to move air. Subwoofers move air by acting as pistons - that is, a driver cone moves in and out pushing air at a specific frequency.

What does this mean? It means that if you have a little 8" diameter subwoofer, and it's a poor unit like I suspect the RCA is, then it probably doesn't move in and out very much at all. Let's say it has 6mm of movement capability (.. which is like.. two, three times what I expect it to ACTUALLY be)

Let's do the imaginary math pretending that the woofer cone is a flat circle (it's actually not though)

8" diametrer means a radius r = 4" = 101.6 mm
the area of a circle is pi(r)^2

so pi (101.6m)^2 = 32429 mm^2

and now let's see how much volume is displaced by this imaginary 8" subwoofer with 6mm of xmax (one-way movement)

32429mm^2 x 6mm = 194574 mm^3 = 0.19 L of volume displacement.

Now your subwoofer is probably vented, but for a sealed system, what does the above mean?

Well, plug the numbers in!!!

And the above, is assuming you've got enough power (watts) to even move the driver (which gets less efficient at lower frequencies) enough at that frequency to even push it to its limits! 

Now take a look at my 18" sub with 33mm of xmax... it would displace about 5.4 L !!! It's very efficient overall (can produce about 90db SPL with only 2 or 3 watts of input!). However I'm feeding it with over 2000W. I can get it to over 115db SPL which is amazing and frightening.

How much SPL is that? It's a lot more. My system willa ctually reproduce 20hz at meaningful SPLs. It'll have more output at 30hz too. and at 40hz. And at 50hz. And at 60hz. Basically across the spectrum. And it'll likely do it with less distortion and more clarity!! The bass has more definition, more impact, and more depth.

As far as subwoofer recommendations go, i generally recommend you go at least 12" vented or 15" sealed in most rooms.. and the bigger the better.

Don't forget that the room also contributes greatly to how we hear bass, so one sub might not be enough to get a natural sounding response. I normally recommend two subwoofers where possible.

Now back to the topic of the gain knob - you're probably thinking - what's the point of having a subwoofer that can get loud, if the level is the same as the mains? Becuase that's how recordings already are. The bass is already sent a lot of energy. And yes, you need mains that can get very loud without hurting your ears, because recordings have a lot of dynamic range.

Movies, for example, expect your mains to be capable of at least 105db at the listening position (and that normally means around 112db @ 1m) and your sub to be capable of 115db at the listening position (again, capable is the key word - that doesn't mean it'll always be that loud, just when the movie calls for it).

Now the above are very difficult criteria to meet. If you can get even 7db below those requirements you'll be _very_ satisfied with your whole system.

Is there any particular sub I recommend? Well everyone else has covered the commercial subs front, but i'll recommend a DIY sub:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/creative-sound-solutions/51662-css-trio-12-loaded-horn.html


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Thanks for an excellent post - that clicked a few things in my head as well. :TT


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## CdnTiger (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

I'll also chime in and say thanks for the great post. I wonder how many people just getting started putting together their theatre system will start panicking, though. Given all the setup, calibration, and tweaking generally required to get the most out of a sub, some people may be just as well off buying a sub somewhere between the HTIB wannabe kind and what you recommend. If the sub/room/listening seat aren't set up to take advantage of the better sub, is it really all that beneficial?

Of course, the better sub allows one at least a chance to appreciate good sound, and if someone's found their way onto this forum, they've already proven they're in the minority that cares about such things...


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

With a good sub will you still be able to hear the rumble even when the avr master volume is at a low level?


----------



## CdnTiger (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

You will definitely hear more than you would without the sub! Obviously, you can still turn the volume down so far that the sub doesn't make a noticeable contribution. 

Maybe the correct answer is you'll be able to play at lower volumes and still hear the bass frequencies when using a good sub.


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

If you buy a self powered sub, you can turn UP the sub volume as you turn DOWN the AVR volume.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> With a good sub will you still be able to hear the rumble even when the avr master volume is at a low level?


No, because of how our hearing works. 

Our ears are 

1) Less sensitive as you go down in frequency
2) Less sensitive to undistorted bass

It's very difficult for us to perceive bass at low volumes. So a poor sub will actually _seem_ to have more "bass/rumble" but it won't be distinct, or powerful, or memorable. It's just be noisy. Lesser subs produce more distortion that we can hear plenty, than bass that we can hear less of. Most people are used to the sound of distorted bass from loudspeakers and poor subwoofers.

To really experience how cool true bass is, does require you to turn the volume up (because we need high SPLs to perceive low frequencies correctly) and no, the solution isn't to set the bass louder than the rest of the signal (technically, in movies the LFE channel already is capable of getting 10db louder). The point is to make it so everything is at its correct mixing level (to not compress the dynamic range. That means voices are pretty intelligibly loud, and the bass when it's there will be powerful and when the soundtrack wants to be loud, it WILL be loud. 

Setting up a system that sounds effortless at high volumes is the hard part. Most speakers produce so much distortion, whether you recognize it or not, that at high volumes your first thought is to turn things down. 

Overall you need very good main speakers, and multiple, excellent subwoofers, and perhaps some diffusion of reflections in the room. Without those things, you'll always be left wanting more.

It's not the correct approach to set up a system that sounds good at low volumes, because when movies are made they're not intended to be listened to this way. 

That doesn't mean a system has to be ear-splitting loud either.

It's all about balance and preservation of dynamic range.

Music is a problem, because more than 70% of what's released these days is dynamically compressed. That is, the bass isn't even louder than the rest of the song. That means, with most Top 40 music there's less physical impact / punch because you often have to turn it up to ear-splitting levels to get the desired SPL in the bass. 

Overall, I would never recommend someone upgrade their subwoofer, who doesn't already have excellent front Left / Right speakers. Those are the _anchor_s of a good system.

All of the above said, some AVRs will have processing modes like DynamicEQ which change the tonal balance to be more impactful at low volumes. Not something I'd really mess with but if you do have speakers that make listening at around -8 to -6 on the AVR cringe-worthy, then you might be inclined to use this feature.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

My in ceiling speakers are brand Proficient. The center is 6 1/2 two way, The tweeter is 1" Aluminum Dome with 125 watts and frequency response is 36hz-22khz and sensitivity 92 db. Impedance 8ohms. The L and R speakers are 6½" Polypropylene Woofers • Impedance: 8Ω 
• 3/4" Soft Dome Tweeters • Sensitivity: 90dB 1W/1m 
• Power Handling: 75 Watts • Diameter x Depth: 9¼" x 3-5/8" 
• Frequency Response: 45Hz - 20kHz •

How good/bad are these speakers?


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> My in ceiling speakers are brand Proficient. The center is 6 1/2 two way, The tweeter is 1" Aluminum Dome with 125 watts and frequency response is 36hz-22khz and sensitivity 92 db. Impedance 8ohms. The L and R speakers are 6½" Polypropylene Woofers • Impedance: 8Ω
> • 3/4" Soft Dome Tweeters • Sensitivity: 90dB 1W/1m
> • Power Handling: 75 Watts • Diameter x Depth: 9¼" x 3-5/8"
> • Frequency Response: 45Hz - 20kHz •
> ...


I don't know, but they're most certainly not capable of mating to a high quality subwoofer without distorting heavily. My best advice is to find a local High End Audio shop and audition for yourself any large high end Tower Speakers they have on offer, at high SPLs. Then come home and try those same volumes at home. An indicator of how loud it actually is vs how loud it seems, is to turn it up to a comfortable level, and then try to talk over the speakers to the person nearest yourself. Better speakers won't "sound loud" but you'll find yourself yelling to be heard. lesser speakers won't be loud but will seem loud... these kind of speakers take away the slam and impact in the bass.


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Energy's s10.3 has been on sale in the range of $200-$300 lately. Worth considering at least.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> With a good sub will you still be able to hear the rumble even when the avr master volume is at a low level?


Yes.


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

asere said:


> My in ceiling speakers are brand Proficient. The center is 6 1/2 two way, The tweeter is 1" Aluminum Dome with 125 watts and frequency response is 36hz-22khz and sensitivity 92 db. Impedance 8ohms. The L and R speakers are 6½" Polypropylene Woofers • Impedance: 8Ω
> • 3/4" Soft Dome Tweeters • Sensitivity: 90dB 1W/1m
> • Power Handling: 75 Watts • Diameter x Depth: 9¼" x 3-5/8"
> • Frequency Response: 45Hz - 20kHz •
> ...


I think these would be pretty decent for whole house background music, and depending on the room setup they may work for rears/surrounds. I would be awfully skeptical of using in ceiling speakers for LCR application. Your 3 fronts should be bookshelf or preferably towers. In wall for your fronts is a compromise that some find necessary, but in ceiling front/center does not sound like a good idea.


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> My in ceiling speakers are brand Proficient. The center is 6 1/2 two way, The tweeter is 1" Aluminum Dome with 125 watts and frequency response is 36hz-22khz and sensitivity 92 db. Impedance 8ohms. The L and R speakers are 6½" Polypropylene Woofers • Impedance: 8Ω
> • 3/4" Soft Dome Tweeters • Sensitivity: 90dB 1W/1m
> • Power Handling: 75 Watts • Diameter x Depth: 9¼" x 3-5/8"
> • Frequency Response: 45Hz - 20kHz •
> ...


IMO not very good. I have yet to hear a "ceiling" speaker that was anywhere near sufficient quality to be used in a Home Theater system. Your mains I would consider only minimal @ their specs of 8 Ohms 75 watts and 90db spl. What brand were those?

There is a LOT of room for improvement including addition of the sub.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



phreak said:


> Your 3 fronts should be bookshelf or preferably towers.


I'll add to that. Your three fronts should probably be capable of 100db SPL. To do so, especially in the lower midrange where high power demands will be centered, requires the ability to move air.

So you need surface area. A 10" woofer, or equivalent (2 X 8" woofers or 3 X 6.5" woofers) , is never a bad idea on main speakers covering the high energy range from 80hz to 300hz which a subwoofer does not cover. You also need adequate amplification for the main speakers.


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## CdnTiger (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Wow. That's a lot of oomph! :hsd:I don't dispute that these are laudable goals, but most "normal" people would see this, shrug their shoulders, and think "if that's what it takes for quality sound I'll live with my HTIB. It's not _that _bad."

My take is that there are plenty of very well respected speakers that don't move as much air as it seems would be "necessary", so keeping a person's interest, budget, WAF, neighbour noise concerns, etc. in mind should help to give them some ideas that they're comfortable with. 

IIRC, it takes double the amplifier power to increase the speaker's sound output by 3 dB. I'm not sure how much change in diaphragm area is required for the same effect. What would be the recommended number/size of woofers if the listener knew they wouldn't be allowed to listen at reference level (assuming speaker sensitivity is held constant)? Say, 94 or 95dB peaks instead of 100?


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



CdnTiger said:


> Wow. That's a lot of oomph! :hsd:I don't dispute that these are laudable goals, but most "normal" people would see this, shrug their shoulders, and think "if that's what it takes for quality sound I'll live with my HTIB. It's not _that _bad."


Right - and they don't bother with HT forums like this!



> IIRC, it takes double the amplifier power to increase the speaker's sound output by 3 dB. I'm not sure how much change in diaphragm area is required for the same effect. What would be the recommended number/size of woofers if the listener knew they wouldn't be allowed to listen at reference level (assuming speaker sensitivity is held constant)? Say, 94 or 95dB peaks instead of 100?


First of all, remember that 100db peaks is already 5db quieter than reference levels. 95db also means the dialogue levels will be at 70-75db instead of 80-85db. It also limits the LFE channel to 105db peaks and lower average levels. most people will find the bass from better subs to be anemic and dry at these levels. That's what i was alluding to. 

Either way, 95-97db at the listening position still requires some air moving ability. An 8" woofer, two quality 6.5" midwoofers, etc. This is what most people with decent use at best. A single 6.5" woofer still has half the surface area, and it's doubtful it has much throw. The in-ceiling driver is likely not even vented though i hope it is.

You can't forget about distance losses either. To do 95db you still need over ~102db @ 1m

A doubling of drivers will give 6db boost. It also means less distortion at the same SPL.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

The speakers are from here www.proficientaudio.com


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

I've researched the "Proficient" website and the equipment DOES look nice. I am NOT impressed with the data given. All of the wall/ceiling install equipment fails to make an enclosure for the speakers. In other words the speakers are operating in open air. They cannot be as efficient as the subwoofer or as efficient as other speakers in an enclosure specifically designed FOR the enclosure.
Although the speakers will output sound, the sound will NOT have a very good flat response curve and the speakers will probably have distortion if pushed for volume.
The subwoofer looks very ice. It has a 10" driver (speaker). The enclosure (box) is about 14" square. That is a SMALL box for a subwoofer and even without hearing it, I can tell you it will NOT reproduce a 32Hz note at a 100dbs SPL. The sub will equal the in wall/ceiling speakers but not much else. The system would be ok in a small room 10 X 12 or smaller but only as a starter system.


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## CdnTiger (Feb 16, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



GranteedEV said:


> Right - and they don't bother with HT forums like this!.


I don't think I can argue with that!



GranteedEV said:


> First of all, remember that 100db peaks is already 5db quieter than reference levels. 95db also means the dialogue levels will be at 70-75db instead of 80-85db. It also limits the LFE channel to 105db peaks and lower average levels. most people will find the bass from better subs to be anemic and dry at these levels. That's what i was alluding to.
> 
> Either way, 95-97db at the listening position still requires some air moving ability. An 8" woofer, two quality 6.5" midwoofers, etc. This is what most people with decent use at best. A single 6.5" woofer still has half the surface area, and it's doubtful it has much throw. The in-ceiling driver is likely not even vented though i hope it is.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation and points of reference. onder:


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

When watching action movies I don't really bring the avr master volume below 35db or I will wake up the family . So if the avr master volume is at 35 with a sub that does 20hz on the reference level does that mean the sub will be louder than my current one that does above 36hz?


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> When watching action movies I don't really bring the avr master volume below 35db or I will wake up the family . So if the avr master volume is at 35 with a sub that does 20hz on the reference level does that mean the sub will be louder than my current one that does above 36hz?


The time to watch action movies is while the family is _awake_, not while they're trying to sleep, unless you have a sound-sealed HT.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

I know its better to watch action movies while everyone is awake but sometimes with work and kids there is not much choice but watch them late lol!


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> I know its better to watch action movies while everyone is awake but sometimes with work and kids there is not much choice but watch them late lol!


Honestly, "rumble" is a product of low frequencies and high SPLs.

If your SPLs are low you won't get the intended effect of the LFE channel. It doesn't matter if you have Eight PB13Us or a Radioshack sub.


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

I can see you're a family man and care about the comfort of others in your family. Good! Now, how do we get you to your goal and level of enjoyment and entertainment with your home theater STUFF.
Obviously you gotta do a family work around. Only YOU can work that out. But the equipment stuff we can help. 
The kids will grow up and they too will want to watch, listen, and be excited by your music and video entertainment. You have time to pick out the right stuff. Start making your trips to the stereo stores and start looking and listening. All this talk in the forum can only STEER you in the right direction. THEN it is up to you to make an intelligent decision about what best suits your circumstances.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

ISLAND1000 said:


> I can see you're a family man and care about the comfort of others in your family. Good! Now, how do we get you to your goal and level of enjoyment and entertainment with your home theater STUFF.
> Obviously you gotta do a family work around. Only YOU can work that out. But the equipment stuff we can help.
> The kids will grow up and they too will want to watch, listen, and be excited by your music and video entertainment. You have time to pick out the right stuff. Start making your trips to the stereo stores and start looking and listening. All this talk in the forum can only STEER you in the right direction. THEN it is up to you to make an intelligent decision about what best suits your circumstances.


If we as members could nominate hall of fame entries/replies I personally would nominate this one #1! Awesome!


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



ISLAND1000 said:


> I've researched the "Proficient" website and the equipment DOES look nice. I am NOT impressed with the data given. All of the wall/ceiling install equipment fails to make an enclosure for the speakers. In other words the speakers are operating in open air. They cannot be as efficient as the subwoofer or as efficient as other speakers in an enclosure specifically designed FOR the enclosure.
> Although the speakers will output sound, the sound will NOT have a very good flat response curve and the speakers will probably have distortion if pushed for volume.
> The subwoofer looks very ice. It has a 10" driver (speaker). The enclosure (box) is about 14" square. That is a SMALL box for a subwoofer and even without hearing it, I can tell you it will NOT reproduce a 32Hz note at a 100dbs SPL. The sub will equal the in wall/ceiling speakers but not much else. The system would be ok in a small room 10 X 12 or smaller but only as a starter system.


Thats true. Thanks to all for the help!!!


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



JBrax said:


> If we as members could nominate hall of fame entries/replies I personally would nominate this one #1! Awesome!


LOL


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Is there a way to test at home how loud a sub gets with spl? To see how low the frequency response drops.


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

with an SPL meter. radio shack model 33-2055 perhaps.


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

You can down load various frequency clips from this website onto a cd and play them on your own equipment to test your system. Or hookup your computer directly to your AVR and download and play them direct.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



ISLAND1000 said:


> You can down load various frequency clips from this website onto a cd and play them on your own equipment to test your system. Or hookup your computer directly to your AVR and download and play them direct.


Where on the forum can I find the downloads?


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*

Test tones here: [LINK] click on the 'index.html' link there.


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## KalaniP (Dec 17, 2008)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



caper26 said:


> Test tones here: [LINK] click on the 'index.html' link there.


Real Traps has a free test CD you can download as well. I wonder how the two compare?

http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



ISLAND1000 said:


> I've researched the "Proficient" website and the equipment DOES look nice. I am NOT impressed with the data given. All of the wall/ceiling install equipment fails to make an enclosure for the speakers. In other words the speakers are operating in open air. They cannot be as efficient as the subwoofer or as efficient as other speakers in an enclosure specifically designed FOR the enclosure.
> Although the speakers will output sound, the sound will NOT have a very good flat response curve and the speakers will probably have distortion if pushed for volume.
> The subwoofer looks very ice. It has a 10" driver (speaker). The enclosure (box) is about 14" square. That is a SMALL box for a subwoofer and even without hearing it, I can tell you it will NOT reproduce a 32Hz note at a 100dbs SPL. The sub will equal the in wall/ceiling speakers but not much else. The system would be ok in a small room 10 X 12 or smaller but only as a starter system.


If my speakers are NOT efficient as the subwoofer is it worth investing in a good sub that can do 20 or less hz? I really do not watch movies at a real high volume so would investing in a sub with a nice frequency response of 20hz or less be better than my current sub that does only above 36hz. This would be having the avr master volume around the 30's and 40's. I guess what I am asking is if a better sub is only beneficial if you listen at high volumes?


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

asere said:


> If my speakers are NOT efficient as the subwoofer is it worth investing in a good sub that can do 20 or less hz? I really do not watch movies at a real high volume so would investing in a sub with a nice frequency response of 20hz or less be better than my current sub that does only above 36hz. This would be having the avr master volume around the 30's and 40's.


Having a good sub makes a world of difference. I had a Klipsch rw-12d and just upgraded to the SVS pb12-nsd. If your sub only goes down to 38hz you would would most certainly benefit from an upgrade.


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> If my speakers are NOT efficient as the subwoofer is it worth investing in a good sub that can do 20 or less hz? I really do not watch movies at a real high volume so would investing in a sub with a nice frequency response of 20hz or less be better than my current sub that does only above 36hz. This would be having the avr master volume around the 30's and 40's. I guess what I am asking is if a better sub is only beneficial if you listen at high volumes?


 That's a good question. 
Your system has some good things going for it. The mains and ceiling/wall speakers use the same drivers. That's a good thing even if they don't do an adequate job of producing clear undistorted wide frequency bandwidth sound. I'm guessing too that their frequency response is not the desired FLAT response. However, those speakers probably match the audio performance of the subwoofer. That too is a good thing.
What's missing in the system is higher highs, lower lows, and louder spls when the source material demands it.
This is the area of discussion so many consumers find themselves. To improve the system in all of the various performance categories costs money, lots of money, thousands of dollars if you're picky.
You seem like you are willing to start your improvement with the subwoofer. I agree. That's a good place to start. A better sub will play lower notes, more smoothly, with less distortion, and more volume. BUT you don't have to play the sub at higher volumes to experience it's better performance delivering a wider bandwidth, with less distortion, and with a smoother response curve.
The answer to your question, "I guess what I am asking is if a better sub is only beneficial if you listen at high volumes?" is NO.
A better sub has much more performance than just volume, as I have discussed above.


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## informel (Jun 21, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> If my speakers are NOT efficient as the subwoofer is it worth investing in a good sub that can do 20 or less hz? I really do not watch movies at a real high volume so would investing in a sub with a nice frequency response of 20hz or less be better than my current sub that does only above 36hz. This would be having the avr master volume around the 30's and 40's. I guess what I am asking is if a better sub is only beneficial if you listen at high volumes?


You will see a difference even with music, you will hear lower note on some songs that you thought was not there.

Also, the first time you will watch a movie with very low base, you and your wife will probably look at each other and say wow (or you won't say anything, but your face will speak by itself).

To convince yourself, try to borrow a sub from a local dealer or if you have friends that have a good sub, ask them if you could try it.

If you affraid of your main speaker not up the the task, then do not hesitate, get a good sub,it will help them.


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



> If my speakers are NOT efficient as the subwoofer is it worth investing in a good sub that can do 20 or less hz?


Yes. Most subs are different efficiencies than the mains in the system. Subs have their own design, amp, and driver. The gain, as well as Trim Levels in receivers are used to match the levels to the remainder of the system. It is TOTALLY worth the investment.



> I really do not watch movies at a real high volume so would investing in a sub with a nice frequency response of 20hz or less be better than my current sub that does only above 36hz.


This was already answered in an earlier post. At lower levels, you can raise the gain the amp to give you that ooomph.



> This would be having the avr master volume around the 30's and 40's. I guess what I am asking is if a better sub is only beneficial if you listen at high volumes?


 No, it depends on the content you want to listen to. ie, movies have really low frequency sounds.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> I really do not watch movies at a real high volume so would investing in a sub with a nice frequency response of 20hz or less be better than my current sub that does only above 36hz. This would be having the avr master volume around the 30's and 40's. I guess what I am asking is if a better sub is only beneficial if you listen at high volumes?


The experience of a true sub has almost _nothing_ to do with volume, it has to do with frequency. Keep in mind that these frequencies already exist, even at your moderate volumes, you just dont have a sub that produces those frequencies. Obviously we've already covered if its beneficial to hear those frequencies.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



KalaniP said:


> Real Traps has a free test CD you can download as well. I wonder how the two compare?
> 
> http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm


I downloaded to my PC the room eq wizard but how do I use it? I do have an spl meter but how to I connect it to pc? Also how can I test the frequency response by using only the spl meter without the wizzard software?


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> ... Also how can I test the frequency response by using only the spl meter without the wizzard software?


Test CD's have tones recorded onto them that play through the frequency range. I have several CD's that play tones from 20hz up to 20khz at 1/3 octave intervals. Each tone is played for 15secs. Each tone is recorded onto the CD at the exact same volume level, so in a perfect world with a perfect system, each tone will play back through your system at the exact same volume.

This is how to measure your speaker's frequency response:
--First step is to get an unaltered stereo signal to your speakers. This means in your AVR you need to turn off any EQ functions that alter the sound (i.e. Loudness,Re-EQ,Late Night Mode,Audessey EQ).
--The easiest test CD I have has the frequency range broken up into 3 separate tracks. The first track starts around 150hz and then continues down to 20hz. I play the 150hz test tone and with my SPL meter set up in the listening position, I adjust the AVR's volume so the SPL meter reads somewhere around 80db (do not touch the AVR master volume after this). 
--Now let the test CD play through the test tones and record the SPL's that the meter reads. Remember with a perfect system, every test tone will play at 80db, but now you will find out how far from perfect your system is.

Standard SPL meters are not highly accurate but this will give you a good idea of what your working with. For best accuracy you want to use a calibrated microphone with REW. There is an abundance of info on this site on the use of REW.

Here is a graph that I made using measurements from my SPL meter. These are measurements from 3 different speaker systems, none of them was using any subwoofer that is why there is such a fast drop off below 45hz.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...1d1297467116-bose-quality-frequency-chart.pdf


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



GranteedEV said:


> That isn't a volume knob, it's a gain knob. In fact you should never just try to make the bass "louder". The bass level should be reasonably "matched" to the rest of the level. The point of the gain knob is for you to take a Sound Pressure Level Meter, and match the level of the subwoofer, to the level produced by your mains, on the same signal from your receiver. This also means that you need to start with capable mains because a lot of meaningful bass is in the region from 80hz to 200hz, which a subwoofer will rarely cover without giving away its location.
> 
> Beyond that, bass isn't just a "rumble effect". 20hz to our ears is actually quieter at the same sound pressure level as 40hz, which is quieter than 80hz. Our ears, and bodies however, perceive each of these frequencies differently. It's like the difference between a "kick drum" and a "snare drum" - it's not supposed to all "sound the same. If bass all sounds the same to you then you have a very poorly set up system unfortunately.
> 
> ...


I have looked into building a sub myself however I do not know where to begin. What parts do I get? What will make it have a low frequency etc. Also by the time I am done with buying parts to build won't I have spent around the same as buying a commercial sub?


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

asere, head on over here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-subwoofers-general-discussion/

and start a thread. We'll be more than glad to discuss things with more detail


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## MikeBiker (Jan 3, 2010)

*Re: Are there sound differences with subs*



asere said:


> I have looked into building a sub myself however I do not know where to begin. What parts do I get? What will make it have a low frequency etc. Also by the time I am done with buying parts to build won't I have spent around the same as buying a commercial sub?


Just considering parts (driver, amp, MDF, paint, etc.) is is usually a lot cheaper to build your own. If you have to buy the tools that are required to do a decent build, then the cost would most likely be higher than buying a manufactured sub.


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

I just built my first one. You will get WAY more performance than buying a commercial sub when considering the $$$. The only thing you have to put in is the time. if you are not "handy" then don't bother; unless you have a friend that is willing to help you all the way who has wood-working skills. when I have a chance, i will be taking measurements on my MA sub which retails for $1,400, and comparing them with my DIY, which cost just over 700 i think. The 2nd best choice to DIY is internet direct (ID).


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

and as mike said...only if the tools are available to borrow


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

GranteedEV said:


> Honestly, "rumble" is a product of low frequencies and high SPLs.
> 
> If your SPLs are low you won't get the intended effect of the LFE channel. It doesn't matter if you have Eight PB13Us or a Radioshack sub.


Guys, this thread has been around for a long time since I asked a question about sub differences but I wanted to add that now that I have the Kreisel 12012 the system comes alive.
Now I have a question. How come with my previous receiver Denon 1611 I would get spl peaks at around 95db at volumes like -35 and now that I have the Onkyo 805 which has a better and excellent amp I get peaks at only 70-75db at lower volume like -15? This is with speakers and sub.The system has always been calibrated with Audyssey.
This was my observation from yesterday.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

The Onkyo is THX certified which calibrates to a reference level of 85db with 20db of headroom when the playback volume is set at 0. At -15 on the volume that equates to 70db playback level but peaks of 90db so that still sounds off. The Denon is not THX so maybe that makes up the difference? 

The Denon uses normal Audyssey Multeq, the Onkyo uses the more advanced XT version so that might make a difference as well.

I am assuming that your talking about the speakers and subs, if it is just your sub then turn up the volume on the sub since Audyssey usually never gets the sub volume right.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

*,*



sub_crazy said:


> The Denon is not THX so maybe that makes up the difference?


Agreeing with you, for calibration purposes, Audyssey and reference level playback levels, all is seen in the same light.

Differences come with speaker sensitivity, room acoustics and amplifier sections.....that and the 1611 has Audyssey MultEQ, IIRC, the lowest form of room correction software Audyssey has to offer.

And again agreeing with you, despite how good Audyssey XT32/SubEQ HT is, subwoofer calibration, my experience, requires REW and user intervention. And having a pair of subwoofers with PEQ capability, is always a good thing also.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

It could also be that the Onkyo 805 is driving my speakers more efficiently than the 1611 and requires a lower volume than -15db in order to get higher spl's peaks.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

asere said:


> It could also be that the Onkyo 805 is driving my speakers more efficiently than the 1611 and requires a lower volume than -15db in order to get higher spl's peaks.


Watts is watts but if your speakers are demanding speakers, yes, ohm wise, there could be a difference in reproducing demanding or difficult passages.

Just saying, side-by-side, without question (i'm a Denon/Marantz fanboy) the amplifier section of the Onkyo TS-SR805 is far superior to the Denon AVR1611.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> Watts is watts but if your speakers are demanding speakers, yes, ohm wise, there could be a difference in reproduction demanding or difficult passages.
> 
> Just saying, side-by-side, without question (i'm a Denon/Marantz fanboy) the amplifier section of the Onkyo TS-SR805 is superior to the Denon AVR1611.


I agree the 805 weighs like 60lbs to the 1611's 20lbs or so. The 805 is tough to beat even with modern receivers when it comes to the amplification power.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

asere said:


> The 805 is tough to beat even with modern receivers when it comes to the amplification power.


And I don't like this fact. 

...:neener:

The 805 is ~4 years older, yet has approximately 25%/33% more clean output than the Denon flagship unit we currently have, even thought we paid about twice the price of a new 805; AVR-4520CI.

Some things are just not right.

...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yup, its hard to justify replacing the 805 (I have one also) the bench tests on it are astonishing considering I payed $750 new back in 2008


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