# LTS and Ultra 16 (Not Official) - speculation



## ShaunH (Sep 15, 2009)

So first as you must have noticed this is just fun speculation and is in no way official. Its all for fun. And to get everyone thinking about the the LTS and other possibility.

So first off.

The LTS will be SVS high end line. And I think we can all agree that they will probably be a three way design. Feature soft dome tweeters and non metallic mids and woofers. 

I'm guessing either SEAS excel, Scan Speak, or Morel drivers. Possibly a large midrange and a couple big woofers maybe 2 8's? Will they use the same tweeter? 

I also had a thought what about having woofers or mids done in house or using the foam glass composite (polymethacrylimide) either in house or OEM by someone like Scan speak. 

And with more veneer and the arch like the MTS speakers. 

Tom V. mentioned here on the shack at the time in 07 the drivers for a LTS speaker was around 1000 dollars per speaker.

And before we all get to excited how do you think the current economy will or has changed the LTS design? 

To change gears a little bit here.

I've posted it around the net a bit.

SVS is developing the new Ultra 16 underhung neo motor woofer. For the upcoming Sealed SB ultra 16

I'm wondering why not use it in a large ported sub. 2500-3000 dollars or so to compete with the big subs from ED, Epik and others.

Especially sense the PB Ultra 13/2 which was in the design faze was seemly put on the back burner as was a powered PB plus/4.

SVS needs that insane sub to cap of its line. They could even offer it in an SS style cylinder. 

The issues would of course be weight, size and cost. But if there is a market for conquests big ED's and so on then SVS can sure compete in it. They would probably be special order but I can see a market that would appreciate them. I'm sure all mentioned items would be limited quantities.

They would be a great option for the LTS. 

So feel free to add your speculations. :bigsmile:


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

I personally am very eager to see what is in store with the Sealed Ultra 16. For a long time, I used my PB13-Ultra in sealed mode. In my previous place, the sealed provided the flattest response without correction.

I really like sealed subwoofer designs. I think the quality of sound suffers quite a bit with ported enclosures (not always the case, but in general).

I don't think SVS is worried about competing with the bigger, single enclosure subwoofers. At what point is it too big? When does it benefit to go with a massive single sub enclosure over a dual sub set up? I don't really know, but this is all my speculation.


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

The MTS already uses what many would consider the best dome tweeter available, so I can't see how the LTS can use a better dome tweeter in a "simple" 3 way. Odds are they will try a line array with ribbons, a dipole, or something else exotic.


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

I don't know what is in store for the LTS line, but I know SVS has always put out a fantastic product, so I know the LTS, their flagship speaker line will not disappoint.

I would love to see more line array speakers, too.


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## ShaunH (Sep 15, 2009)

SteveCallas said:


> The MTS already uses what many would consider the best dome tweeter available, so I can't see how the LTS can use a better dome tweeter in a "simple" 3 way. Odds are they will try a line array with ribbons, a dipole, or something else exotic.


I don't know Steve. I don't see svs changing its speaker philosophy to something that out there.

They may not need to update tweeter but instead add some top of the line mids and woofers.

I mean lets look at whats come before, simply stylish boxes with high end drivers, in realistic proven designs, using non metallic drivers. 

I admit I've never heard ribbon tweeters or dipoles. 

I've heard Martian logins but I don't see SVS going that way.

A little offtopic, Steve what speakers are you running now? 



Jon Liu said:


> I don't know what is in store for the LTS line, but I know SVS has always put out a fantastic product, so I know the LTS, their flagship speaker line will not disappoint.
> 
> I would love to see more line array speakers, too.


Hmmm I never heard line arrays so I have line of reference to what they would sound like.

Another thought a little out there. Maybe active crossovers?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I would like to see speakers with an array of ribbons... and I would like to see a sub with 18's. :flex:


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

ShaunH said:


> A little offtopic, Steve what speakers are you running now?


I use all Boston Acoustic Reference speakers with VR3s as my mains.



> I don't know Steve. I don't see svs changing its speaker philosophy to something that out there.
> 
> They may not need to update tweeter but instead add some top of the line mids and woofers.


It would seem a bit odd to use the same tweeter in the mid line and upper line of speakers. I think they picked too good of a tweeter to use in the MTS line to be honest....they really can't one up it with any other dome tweeter I know of.


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## snowmanick (Oct 16, 2007)

SteveCallas said:


> It would seem a bit odd to use the same tweeter in the mid line and upper line of speakers. I think they picked too good of a tweeter to use in the MTS line to be honest....they really can't one up it with any other dome tweeter I know of.


I don't think it would be necessary to top the tweeter personally. A fully veneered enclosure, 3 way design for both towers and center with a wall mountable surround using proven components (drivers and XO parts) would be a very solid speaker. As mentioned perhaps they go bigger with the bass drivers to dual 8's. If hey want an easier to differentiate product they could do a three way stand mount monitor as well.

As for the 16" ported, I would love if they came out with something like that. I recently read a post by someone at SVS (sorry for the lack of a reference here) discussing their surrounds and cone size. The post stated that due to the surround on the 13Ultra the cone size is very similar to many 15's on the market, following a similar line of thought a 16.5" driver may well be similar to a typical 18" drivers. Sure the needed box would be very large but SVS hasn't been overly shy of making enclosures the size they need to optimize their products in the past. Add to that the many very high end sub's coming out from the likes of Rel, Revel and Paradigm, there may just be a market for very powerful, very large high end subs that are not merely large black boxes. A ported 16.5" HO, high excursion, veneered, ported sub with a 1000 watt amp with internal DSP, I can see that selling.


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## ShaunH (Sep 15, 2009)

snowmanick said:


> I don't think it would be necessary to top the tweeter personally. A fully veneered enclosure, 3 way design for both towers and center with a wall mountable surround using proven components (drivers and XO parts) would be a very solid speaker. As mentioned perhaps they go bigger with the bass drivers to dual 8's. If hey want an easier to differentiate product they could do a three way stand mount monitor as well.
> 
> As for the 16" ported, I would love if they came out with something like that. I recently read a post by someone at SVS (sorry for the lack of a reference here) discussing their surrounds and cone size. The post stated that due to the surround on the 13Ultra the cone size is very similar to many 15's on the market, following a similar line of thought a 16.5" driver may well be similar to a typical 18" drivers. Sure the needed box would be very large but SVS hasn't been overly shy of making enclosures the size they need to optimize their products in the past. Add to that the many very high end sub's coming out from the likes of Rel, Revel and Paradigm, there may just be a market for very powerful, very large high end subs that are not merely large black boxes. A ported 16.5" HO, high excursion, veneered, ported sub with a 1000 watt amp with internal DSP, I can see that selling.


I was thinking I wonder if they could fit a single 10 inch woofer into something reasonably sized?

They could use a more expensive tweeter but I only seeming them do this if it sounds better.

A true full range floor stander capable down to the mid to low 30's would be pretty interesting.


As you said everyone is trying to make top quality subs. And SVS has fallen off the very high end a bit.

The SVS PB Ultra 13 is one of the best subs out there. And its rather reasonable. I'm sure SVS could step it up.

It just seems like a shame to leave all the radical subs in the past. I keep seeing stuff about the conquest and A7-900 and I think why isn't SVS kicking right along with them.

I think ever sense Tom V left and the economy turned to . SVS has become a lot more cautious with its designs. Not this is a bad thing but the truly outrageous desgins don't seem to be in anymore.

I understand the price and weight are an issue but if people will by conquests I'm sure SVS could do something competitive as well.

I don't think we will ever See a Powered B4/plus or a PB Ultra 13/ 2 (both where in the designs faze) But it would nice to at least see a large ported 16 ultra sub and maybe an SS tube version.

SVS could again be competitive on the high and every where else.

Besides the LTS speakers need a over the top sub to go with them.

I just hope SVS hasn't totally lost its rebellious lets build crazy big high performance stuff because we can attitude.

We don't want SVS to become mainstream and boring... shudders. I seem to be getting that vibe as of late. I hope I'm just being paranoid. 

We don't want SVS becoming the next big box audio brand.


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

More expensive tweeter? Again, the ScanSpeak 6600 tweeter they are using is the best commercially available dome tweeter - it retails for common folk like me and you at $220. It digs extremely deep and is very, very low distortion. The only real way to one up it is to find a way to get the same performance at a lower cost.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I dont think we will ever see the likes of the SVS B4 again and IIRC they did not sell many of them anyway, most of the people to consider a sub that size would rather head the IB route or DIY sub builds atleast, the way SVS has gone now with there designs IMO is the best to date and best sounding also, I never liked the old PC/PB+ range, lots of bass but not controlled enough for my liking, but with the new Ultra they have hit the nail on the head and got it just right, when you consider the pricing of these subs there is not really that much that can touch them tbh...and I really like the idea of SB16Ultra, I have always prefered sealed designs which have always worked best in my rooms, the PB13Ultra being the only exception for a ported sub.

With the EQ1 SVS is one of the best positioned sub makers in the market today offering solutions for nearly all needs and budgets, I always thought Velodyne had it nailed but they do not seem to be keeping up with the competition anymore, although the DD range are still good they are now an old design and of seriously needing an update...




ShaunH said:


> I was thinking I wonder if they could fit a single 10 inch woofer into something reasonably sized?
> 
> They could use a more expensive tweeter but I only seeming them do this if it sounds better.
> 
> ...


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## ShaunH (Sep 15, 2009)

SteveCallas said:


> More expensive tweeter? Again, the ScanSpeak 6600 tweeter they are using is the best commercially available dome tweeter - it retails for common folk like me and you at $220. It digs extremely deep and is very, very low distortion. The only real way to one up it is to find a way to get the same performance at a lower cost.


True I'm not familiar with any tweeters above it. So I couldn't say for sure any tweeters that would be better. But I'm sure there are possibly improvements that could be made.

But we must also ask if they don't upgrade the tweeter is that really a bd thing?

If the tweeter is as good as they and everyone claims. Then upgrading the mids, woofers and xo's and the cabinet should be enough to drive it out of the park.



recruit said:


> I dont think we will ever see the likes of the SVS B4 again and IIRC they did not sell many of them anyway, most of the people to consider a sub that size would rather head the IB route or DIY sub builds atleast, the way SVS has gone now with there designs IMO is the best to date and best sounding also, I never liked the old PC/PB+ range, lots of bass but not controlled enough for my liking, but with the new Ultra they have hit the nail on the head and got it just right, when you consider the pricing of these subs there is not really that much that can touch them tbh...and I really like the idea of SB16Ultra, I have always prefered sealed designs which have always worked best in my rooms, the PB13Ultra being the only exception for a ported sub.
> 
> With the EQ1 SVS is one of the best positioned sub makers in the market today offering solutions for nearly all needs and budgets, I always thought Velodyne had it nailed but they do not seem to be keeping up with the competition anymore, although the DD range are still good they are now an old design and of seriously needing an update...



As I've said anything larger than a PB ultra 13 (from a weight standpoint) will have to be limited quantities.

I do feel svs is trying harder to target the mainstream But to be fair I remember Tom V. mentioning a long time ago a very long list of things for R&D too do. Or the stuff we knew about.

I think they have hit most things on that list. Besides the LTS and the a powered B4.

Maybe I'm just being cynical. 

As to Velodyne Yes they aren't completive anymore. The Fathom can undercut them for smalled and sealed for a some what reasonable price. 

I've heard a DD12 and I wasn't impressed. But I'm also not one to need something super small and expect those trade offs.

The servo idea never impressed me I admit it. It seemed like the wrong way to go about overcoming distortion.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

ShaunH said:


> As to Velodyne Yes they aren't completive anymore. The Fathom can undercut them for smalled and sealed for a some what reasonable price.
> 
> I've heard a DD12 and I wasn't impressed. But I'm also not one to need something super small and expect those trade offs.
> 
> The servo idea never impressed me I admit it. It seemed like the wrong way to go about overcoming distortion.


I had 2 DD12's in my system previously but my big M&K easily out performs the Velodynes, and agree with your comments ref to the servo designs, it limits them and dont fully agree with the implementation of servos.

JLAudio seem to be doing good things with smaller boxes and the Fathoms are a good example, nearly bought an F113 and still may do that one day, Barry Ober has great knowledge and have had lengthy conversations with him ref to the Fathoms and all things AV, great guy 

I look forward to hearing the 16Ultra once it arrives !


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

recruit said:


> I look forward to hearing the 16Ultra once it arrives !


Me too, and I may even decide its my sub of choice if the DIY effort I'm going to build doesnt work out.


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## Sycraft (May 21, 2009)

Well there certainly are tweeters more expensive. Accuton makes ceramic (synthetic sapphire) tweeters costing in the $230-400 range retail. They also make a synthetic diamond tweeter that is almost $3000.

Now do they sound any better? I dunno. But you can spend more on a tweeter than the Scanspeak one that SVS uses.

However for them, the real questions isn't if something more pricey is available, or even if it sounds better, it is a question of if it sounds better enough to justify the price. SVS has made their name as offering extremely good sound for the price. They have never been the "Top dollar, anything goes, audiophile grade," company. Always their products have been good for the dollars.

I can't see that changing with the LTS series, or any new subs. That means that whatever they choose, it'll have to be worth the money in sonic terms. It can't be a case of "This is a tiny bit better if you listen real careful." It needs to be something obviously worth the money.

A big part of the reason for that is because they are Internet only. Many people have a lot of apprehension about buying without hearing, and for good reason (I certainly do). That means when the speakers come in, they need to sound good, to justify their cost. After if they are barely, or not at all, better than what you can get locally, why would you go through the trouble of ordering them?

So who knows precisely what the LTS will be? Currently they are playing with some different designs. Makes sense, as you try some different things, see what works, what gives you the best value for the money.

They could well go with extremely pricey parts like the Accuton drivers, and then maybe you have $10,000-15,000 speakers. They could go with parts that are no different quality wise than the MTS, just a different build, like say a 3-way, mirrored driver tower like the Dunlavy SC-IVs. In that case maybe you have $3,000-5,000 speakers.

You don't necessarily have to buy better drivers to improve sound. The way the speaker is built can have as large an effect. So maybe they decide that the level they are at with the MTS speakers, which is pretty high end, is good enough and they just remove some of the construction constraints.

As for the lack of something like the B4, well I think the real reason is that it isn't as good as two subs. Neat idea and all, but it is entirely possible that 2 PC-13s will give you more bass, and a setup like that unquestionably gives you more flexibility. Doesn't make sense to have a special product if more of your normal products can fill the need at a lesser price.

Goes double now that we are seeing things like Audyssey on multiple sub channels and new formats that may have more discreet LFE channels.


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

The Accuton ceramic tweeter doesn't perform nearly as well as the ScanSpeak 6600. Even more expensive ScanSpeak tweeters don't perform as well as the 6600. See these test results. I'm not really concerned with which tweeter is the most expensive or uses the most exotic material, just which performs the best.


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## ShaunH (Sep 15, 2009)

Sycraft said:


> Well there certainly are tweeters more expensive. Accuton makes ceramic (synthetic sapphire) tweeters costing in the $230-400 range retail. They also make a synthetic diamond tweeter that is almost $3000.
> 
> Now do they sound any better? I dunno. But you can spend more on a tweeter than the Scanspeak one that SVS uses.
> 
> ...


God those drivers are stupid expensive I don't see anything like that in SVS future that seems fair to gimmicky.

I don't think svs would go that fair into diminishing returns 

I do think they will push what they can do in the price range. If the MTS are any indication.

I don't think besides veneer the actually cabinets are leaving anything to be desired interns of build quality.


And I had a thought. I just noticed on Epiks blog that they stopped making the conquest. And I think it makes sense seeing as its hard to keep the costs down on something like this. But it seems they a re design it. And while I was thinking through what this could mean,

I had a thought it make more sense for a big sub to have passive radiators instead of ports. So an PB ultra 16 with PRs instead of ports simply for the reason of size and shipability. Getting some high quality 18 PRs and paring them with the upcoming woofer and the new DSP amps seems like it might be actually feasible. Compared to trying to port a sub that big. But I'm sure it wouldn't be cheap. I'm guessing 2.5k to 3k, maybe more.


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## mjg100 (Mar 12, 2008)

The only thing that bothers me about the LTS is the time frame. These were first announced in November of *2006*. I consider them vapor ware until I see them for sale.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

mjg100 said:


> The only thing that bothers me about the LTS is the time frame. These were first announced in November of *2006*. I consider them vapor ware until I see them for sale.


I remember similar speculation with the SVS-EQ1 and people kept on saying it would never appear and it did :whistling:


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## mjg100 (Mar 12, 2008)

recruit said:


> I remember similar speculation with the SVS-EQ1 and people kept on saying it would never appear and it did :whistling:


My problem with all of this is: SVS made the announcement over three years ago. When SVS did that they were announcing an idea not an actual product.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Only time will tell, we shall see, they have always been excellent with there products based on VFM and the R&D has certainly given us some excellent subs, easily the best to date...I am interested in the 16 Ultra if that does materialise....


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## Smatchimo (Jul 1, 2008)

I've got a PB13-ultra but just two tiny 40w Genelec 8030A "monitors", it's about time to upgrade to my first 5.1 setup once I finish saving a few more pennies. 

Just curious, the LTS blurb on SVS's website mentions "strong recession sales of entry level products dictated a re-evaluation of what can be achieved and at what price the market will bear" .... How much more than the MTS 5.0 setup (~$2299 currently) do you think a LTS 5.0 setup will cost? Under ~$3500 or would you guess it will be considerably more than that?


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