# To Sub Floor Or Not To Sub Floor



## studlygoorite (Feb 19, 2010)

Ok the situation is this,

I love bass, I had two Paradigm 15" Servos and they couldn't please me. I got rid of them and purchased a Paradigm Sub 2 hooked up to 240v and it didn't please me until I moved it into a corner and it came alive. I want to add to my bass by maybe adding a little reverb. My room is 21'X16' and has a concrete floor that I have carpeted wall to wall. Three of the four walls are drywalled concrete and I had a flood and have a chance to put in a sub floor before the insurance company does their thing. If I put a sub floor in it will only be 1"X3" strapping with tongue and grooved 1/2" plywood drilled into the straps. Question is, will this be worth it? I have ordered a Velodyne SMS-1 Sub EQ so it can help. Any ideas/suggestions, I don't have much time.

Thanks, John


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Welcome to the Forum. Why do you want a sub floor? It could cause some resonance problems. Others will have to add their input. Have fun. Dennis


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## studlygoorite (Feb 19, 2010)

Hi, I have been looking for that kick to the chest with loud music for a long time now. I was surprised to see that even spending 9,000.00 on a sub that I did not get it. I was then informed that maybe my taste is such that I like distortion in my bass as I have been told the distortion would cause the kick that I need. The Paradigm Sub 2 is a low distortion sub and this is why I am told it lacks the kick. I thought maybe some reverb would help create a louder, chest pounding, bass but I am not sure if it would be worth all the work. I will have thick underpad and expensive wall to wall carpet on top of the concrete floor with or without the sub floor. With the sub in the corner I do get a nice punch but wondered if I could get even more with the sub floor. A Velodyne SMS-1 EQ is also on the way.

PS: As mentioned, if a sub floor would help I wonder if just a 1"x3" strapping with the 1/2" plywood on top would do as that is as thick as I would go.

PSS: Dennis, I notice you have WOW after your description of your sub eq, maybe with mine it would be enough, it's still in transit to my place and I have never owned one.

John


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## Jstslamd (Nov 30, 2010)

I would like to say maybe a nice dual diy sub set up would give you what you want.


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## studlygoorite (Feb 19, 2010)

Jstslamd said:


> I would like to say maybe a nice dual diy sub set up would give you what you want.


With the sub floor or without?


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## Tooley (Jan 2, 2011)

Did you buy the PBK?


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## Jstslamd (Nov 30, 2010)

I don't believe that creating any resonance issues will give you what your to achieve it will just make for annoying sounds that you will try to eliminate later on. I think what your really looking for is a very full type of sound from your subwoofer. In my head what your describing is a large woofer in a sealed enclosure. The raw high powered kind of punch roughly in the 60 to 70 hz range( I 
may be mistaken). I have just recently made the trasition from mobile audio to home audio and it's a completely different animal so tame but in a car a seal 15 inch sub as long as the enclosure is built correctly and everything is tuned properly the feeling of a bass drum at a fast pace will make you feel like your insides are floating. In my opinion it's all about air movement. Two high powered 15 or 18 in subs put in a properly built sealed enclosure will give you exactly what you want. Sorry if this was tough to follow and hopefully I stayed some what on point. In conclusion no I wouldnt put down a sub floor.


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## Jstslamd (Nov 30, 2010)

Read a few diy posts on sealed enclosures using something like tc sounds lms-r's or axis woofers they seem to bring nothing but smiles.


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## Jstslamd (Nov 30, 2010)

Let us know how you make out.


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## studlygoorite (Feb 19, 2010)

Tooley said:


> Did you buy the PBK?


Yes PBK came with my sub.


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## studlygoorite (Feb 19, 2010)

Jstslamd said:


> I don't believe that creating any resonance issues will give you what your to achieve it will just make for annoying sounds that you will try to eliminate later on. I think what your really looking for is a very full type of sound from your subwoofer. In my head what your describing is a large woofer in a sealed enclosure. The raw high powered kind of punch roughly in the 60 to 70 hz range( I
> may be mistaken). I have just recently made the trasition from mobile audio to home audio and it's a completely different animal so tame but in a car a seal 15 inch sub as long as the enclosure is built correctly and everything is tuned properly the feeling of a bass drum at a fast pace will make you feel like your insides are floating. In my opinion it's all about air movement. Two high powered 15 or 18 in subs put in a properly built sealed enclosure will give you exactly what you want. Sorry if this was tough to follow and hopefully I stayed some what on point. In conclusion no I wouldnt put down a sub floor.


Not hard to follow at all, I have always tried to get my house system to sound as good as my car system. I have craved more sound pressure since the beginning and thought my Paradigm Sub 2, with six 10" woofers and 9000 watts peak would do it. Now I am just trying to squeak as much out of it until I can afford another Sub 2. I was going to go with 4 Seatons but have had this too long to return and it does sound really, really good I just need a little more sound pressure. I can't find anyone that says a sub floor will give me better/louder bass so I am thinking of not puting one in and see what my new sub EQ can do for me. Thanks

John


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## vann_d (Apr 7, 2009)

The eq will generally cut overall output of your system with the benefit of smoothing the response. If you have plenty of headroom then you will get great results.

Of course if you customize the curve (as opposed to flat) then the eq may do what you're looking for.

The extra sub is not going to give you a whole lot of extra SPL BTW. I would look for a horn sub that goes 30-80 Hz or there abouts if I were you. It doesn't sound like you're looking for a HT sub (goes really low) but more of a music oriented sub (high SPL to 30 or so Hz).

My vote is no subfloor


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

I feel your pain, I had two ported 12" subs in my upstairs living room and the performance was fantastic. Moved them downstairs to a carpeted concrete slab (15' x 26') and it was like they died. They were replaced with a pair of 15" ported subs and a pair of 18" ported subs to get me where I wanted to be. From what you are stating it sounds like you need more woofage. As an experiment you can try your sub upstairs just to see what the difference is.


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## Jstslamd (Nov 30, 2010)

Hey mike correct me if im wrong but putting something like tile or hard wood floor would acoustically benefit his situation as opposed to carpet. I was always told that carpet can absorb sound waves somewhat or is that all ?


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

Carpet would adsorb high frequencies from a tweeter, not low frequencies from a sub.


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## Tooley (Jan 2, 2011)

When we build Theater Rooms with concrete floors we always do a sub floor.
1x3, 2x4, or drycore if we do 1x or 2x we fill the voids with rigid foam then top with ply 3/4 or 5/8.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

Tooley said:


> When we build Theater Rooms with concrete floors we always do a sub floor.
> 1x3, 2x4, or drycore if we do 1x or 2x we fill the voids with rigid foam then top with ply 3/4 or 5/8.


Any kind of moisture control under the foam?


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## Jstslamd (Nov 30, 2010)

Mike P. said:


> Carpet would adsorb high frequencies from a tweeter, not low frequencies from a sub.


I always wonder if what I said was right. Now I know the truth behind it. Thanks mike


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## Jstslamd (Nov 30, 2010)

Tooley said:


> When we build Theater Rooms with concrete floors we always do a sub floor.
> 1x3, 2x4, or drycore if we do 1x or 2x we fill the voids with rigid foam then top with ply 3/4 or 5/8.


R you using pressure treated firing strips
Or putting 4 mil plastic under it ?


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## studlygoorite (Feb 19, 2010)

Tooley said:


> When we build Theater Rooms with concrete floors we always do a sub floor.
> 1x3, 2x4, or drycore if we do 1x or 2x we fill the voids with rigid foam then top with ply 3/4 or 5/8.


Can you explain why you would do a sub floor?


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## studlygoorite (Feb 19, 2010)

Mike P. said:


> I feel your pain, I had two ported 12" subs in my upstairs living room and the performance was fantastic. Moved them downstairs to a carpeted concrete slab (15' x 26') and it was like they died. They were replaced with a pair of 15" ported subs and a pair of 18" ported subs to get me where I wanted to be. From what you are stating it sounds like you need more woofage. As an experiment you can try your sub upstairs just to see what the difference is.


I thought about a couple of mid subs but I still have my two Paradigm 15" Servos and tried them with the Sub 2 but I couldn't get the Servos to sound as good as the sub 2, although there was plenty of sound pressure then. Maybe when my Sub EQ arrives it will do a better job at blending them in and I will give all 3 another try. I am sure that if I put my subs upstairs there would be a big difference, that is what got me thinking about puting a sub floor in in the first place.

John


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## studlygoorite (Feb 19, 2010)

vann_d said:


> The eq will generally cut overall output of your system with the benefit of smoothing the response. If you have plenty of headroom then you will get great results.
> 
> *Of course if you customize the curve (as opposed to flat) then the eq may do what you're looking for.*
> The extra sub is not going to give you a whole lot of extra SPL BTW. I would look for a horn sub that goes 30-80 Hz or there abouts if I were you. It doesn't sound like you're looking for a HT sub (goes really low) but more of a music oriented sub (high SPL to 30 or so Hz).
> ...


I was hoping that an EQ would do what I want as I have PBKed and ARCed this system but ARC and PBK are both automatic and there is no manual adjusting. My new EQ will let me do as you suggested, a customized curve and who knows, it might be what I need. 

John


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## Tooley (Jan 2, 2011)

Mike P. said:


> Any kind of moisture control under the foam?


The foam is a thermal break you don't need plastic.


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## Tooley (Jan 2, 2011)

Jstslamd said:


> R you using pressure treated firing strips
> Or putting 4 mil plastic under it ?


Pressure treated with sill gasket.


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## Tooley (Jan 2, 2011)

studlygoorite said:


> Can you explain why you would do a sub floor?


Adds a lot more warmth helps to level floors all concrete floors slope to the drain and also my a/v dealer wants me to do they say it is a huge benefit sound wise.
Last year we built 2 show rooms everything was the exact same except 1 had sub floor then carpet the other had no sub floor. Then they used there gear to test each room the one with sub floor sounded better and the numbers proved it.


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## studlygoorite (Feb 19, 2010)

Tooley said:


> Adds a lot more warmth helps to level floors all concrete floors slope to the drain and also my a/v dealer wants me to do they say it is a huge benefit sound wise.
> Last year we built 2 show rooms everything was the exact same except 1 had sub floor then carpet the other had no sub floor. *Then they used there gear to test each room the one with sub floor sounded better and the numbers proved it.*




Thanks Tooley


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

studlygoorite said:


> I thought about a couple of mid subs but I still have my two Paradigm 15" Servos and tried them with the Sub 2 but I couldn't get the Servos to sound as good as the sub 2, although there was plenty of sound pressure then. Maybe when my Sub EQ arrives it will do a better job at blending them in and I will give all 3 another try. I am sure that if I put my subs upstairs there would be a big difference, that is what got me thinking about puting a sub floor in in the first place.
> 
> John


With those three subs, you should be able to get what you need. Here is a quick guide detailing how to best setup three subs. It is recommended that one sub be placed above the center line of the room, but it isn't an absolute. 

http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

Between this and proper EQ, you should be good to go.


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## studlygoorite (Feb 19, 2010)

tesseract said:


> With those three subs, you should be able to get what you need. Here is a quick guide detailing how to best setup three subs. It is recommended that one sub be placed above the center line of the room, but it isn't an absolute.
> 
> http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/
> 
> Between this and proper EQ, you should be good to go.


Interesting read, thanks for this. Do you agree with the suggestion that a sub floor would be a good thing acoustically?


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

studlygoorite said:


> Interesting read, thanks for this. Do you agree with the suggestion that a sub floor would be a good thing acoustically?


I am not in a position to say. I have suspended flooring in my living room, the floor ripples when the ULF hits hard. Some say this isn't accurate, but it sure is fun! I am going to have to get Auralex Grammas and superchunk bass traps, my walls buzz outside the house and this disturbs my neighbors. I am sure it will also clean up the sound for me in the house. 

Your floor wouldn't be suspended, though, it would be pretty solid. Would your sub floor help prevent damage in future flooding? I grew up in a flood plain, never again! I live on a huge hill OUT of the local 500 year floodplain.


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## studlygoorite (Feb 19, 2010)

tesseract said:


> I am not in a position to say. I have suspended flooring in my living room, the floor ripples when the ULF hits hard. Some say this isn't accurate, but it sure is fun! I am going to have to get Auralex Grammas and superchunk bass traps, my walls buzz outside the house and this disturbs my neighbors. I am sure it will also clean up the sound for me in the house.
> 
> Your floor wouldn't be suspended, though, it would be pretty solid. Would your sub floor help prevent damage in future flooding? I grew up in a flood plain, never again! I live on a huge hill OUT of the local 500 year floodplain.


I am going to put drainage in my back yard this summer so I will never have to worry about my sump pump breaking down again. The sub floor I am thinking of going with would be solid, actually I have just decided, I am going to put it in as the insurance guys can't make it here until April 4th just to start replacing all the drywall. 

John


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