# another sub matching question



## Capnemo (Mar 18, 2014)

OK, I have a fair amount of experience with two channel systems with and without subs, but am putting together my first HT system and need advice.

I have a used set of NHT Classic 4's with Classic 3 Center Absolute Zero rear channels. I am using a Yamaha
1030 Avantage HT receiver and using the biamp option to drive the Classic 4's. The room is 12x17x8, TV on the wider wall. The amp is rated I believe 110 wpc and does drive 4ohms at I believe 165 watts so there is some headroom there.

The sound is outstanding, but I had expected more from the bass. The Classic 4's have 10" drivers that deliver into the 30's. I have not one any tweaking yet, just used the YPAO mic setup so far.

Would a Rythmik LV12r/ Outlaw LV+/ SVS PB2000/ HSU VT3 be adequate, with crossover set around 40 hz?

I have searched a bit but would appreciate any advice. 

Thanks!


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

The standard rule, set all speakers to small and set all crossovers to 80Hz.

My familiarity is with the LV12R and the PB2000 and both would be an excellent choice. For overall output, even though an owner of a pair of Rythmik subwoofers, in your situation, based on what you posted, I'd go with the SVS PB2000. And for room smoothing purposes, (better sound quality), I'd keep an eye on buying a second one as soon as finances allow 

For home theater purposes, it's best to set the single subwoofer next to or behind the (MLP) main listening position to get the best room response and tactile sensation; feel the rumble. Setting the subwoofer next to or behind you gives you an ~10dB boost in tactile sensation.

If you haven't already, I would recommend the purchase of a Radio Shack digital sound meter and to download, install and get up and running, a freeware copy of REW so you can measure the acoustical response in your room, to the output of your subwoofer and speaker system. The reason being, subwoofer produced sound waves don't like to play and get along well with each other and getting a subwoofer properly integrated into the acoustics of a room, in of itself, is an upgrade in sound quality.

Hope the above helps.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

> =Capnemo;690139] ... The room is 12x17x8 ... The sound is outstanding, but I had expected more from the bass. The Classic 4's have 10" drivers that deliver into the 30's. ...
> 
> Would a Rythmik LV12r/ Outlaw LV+/ SVS PB2000/ HSU VT3 be adequate, with crossover set around 40 hz?


Yes. Although I'd also try crossover settings up to 80Hz and go with the one that works best for / sounds best to you.

Also, you have a smaller room, which means you could benefit from cabin gain, which means a sealed sub(s) - such as an SVS SB-2000, or a pair of SVS SB-1000s - might be a good option as well.


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## Capnemo (Mar 18, 2014)

OK thanks for the advice. I am wondering why set the crossover at 80z when my front R/L channels have 6" mids and 10" woofers that go to 35hz? 

If I am going to use the sub up to 80 hz, I will sell the Classic 4"s and pick up a used pair of Classic 3's for the front R/L channel, the only difference between the 4 and 3 being that the 4 has the 10" woofer, the Classic Threes deliver down to 50hz.

The Classic 4's are huge, IMHO the tweeters are too high off the floor for couch level listening and they are long, extending out from the wall well past the Classic 3 center channel speaker. Visually the TV is mount 4" off the wall, so the full range speakers stand well. it would be a much cleaner install with wall mounted Classic 3' s matching the center channel plane. it would also allow purchase of a pair of Classic 2's or Absolute Zeros for 7.1 vs my current 5.1 setup.

You answered my next question, i was wondering about moving the sofa out so the rear channels would be lateral and behind instead of coming from 90 left and right, and making room for the sub behind the sofa. 
Should work.

I appreciate the input.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Capnemo said:


> OK thanks for the advice. I am wondering why set the crossover at 80z when my front R/L channels have 6" mids and 10" woofers that go to 35hz?


My avatar is a manufacture's provided image. And as you can see, our speakers are quite capable of 35Hz output. They were purchased about 1994, just as the whole home theater/subwoofer thing was beginning. With the advent of subwoofers, THX recording standards, room correction software and the ability of AVRs to manage bass, for home theater purposes, speakers going <60hz for home theater purposes is an outdated/ineffective concept.

Check out this surround set and their specifications. Frequency Response: 72Hz-24kHz +/-3dB, and they want only $2,000.00 USD.........ea.

...

It's a changing home theater world. Purchased about the same time, our surrounds are spec'd to 60Hz. 

The benefit one receives, by setting the crossover to 80Hz, most localization issues are taken care of and the oomph necessary to drive speaker based woofers into 35Hz, is taken off the AVR's amplifier and put onto the amplifiers found in the subwoofer being used.

And yes, agreed, after years of traditional thinking, it may take a lot more time to wrap one's thinking around this paradigm shift.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Redirecting bass below 80 Hz to a subwoofer that is placed to optimize low bass, is usually better than trying to provide this bass with speakers that are placed for proper imaging and such. And as mentioned, it takes the load off of the speakers and AVR or amp(s).


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## Capnemo (Mar 18, 2014)

OK, so there is nothing to lose byy selling the full range Classic 4's and replacing them with the identical (minus the 10" drivers) Classic 3's, for home theater use. The benefit is, they take up far less space (wall mounted and smaller boxes) and i can add another 2 channel for the same investment.

So...add "Presence" speakers above the L/R channels"? or side surround channels 7.1?


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Based on reviews found online, you'll do very well with a full set of Classic 3 and 2s. The Classic 3s are three-way speakers so you'll get full sonic benefit. There are two downsides to the classic 3s that I read about one should be aware of that are written about in the article linked below.

Stereophile

"The NHT Classic Three's voltage sensitivity was significantly lower both than average *and than specified, at an estimated 83dB(B)/2.83V/m. *However, its impedance was generally higher, dropping below 6 ohms only in the lower midrange and above the audioband (fig.1). *The minimum value was 4 ohms between 120Hz and 170Hz, but there is also a combination of 5.5 ohms and –46° electrical phase angle at 94Hz that will demand a goodly amount of current from the partnering amplifier.*

The point, one needs to make sure their amplifier will be able to easily able to handle 4 ohm transients and have enough oomph, to handle the wattage demands of reference level play. These are not very efficient speakers.

As long as one's receiver can handle 4ohm loads and doesn't expect to raise the roof, with expectations being in the +85dB to +96dB range, you'll be good. This is the normal movie theater playback range.

(it reads as if your sweet Yamaha 1030 Avantage will be able to easily handle demands of a 4ohm load)

What are your total, overall output expectations? Have you made any subwoofer decisions?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Capnemo said:


> OK thanks for the advice. I am wondering why set the crossover at 80z when my front R/L channels have 6" mids and 10" woofers that go to 35hz?


80Hz is merely the THX recommended setting, not something you should consider a mandate. If your speakers are able to achieve usable output down to 35Hz then there's no reason you shouldn't try 50-60Hz and see how it works (I personally like how things sound much better with my system set at 60Hz). You never want to drive speakers to the lowest they can go, because that will diminish headroom and negatively affect dynamics, so the goal is to always set the crossover higher than that point. Experimenting will allow you to get a better sense of what things sound like in your room and to your ears. Perhaps 80Hz will work best for you, but maybe not.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

theJman said:


> 80Hz is merely the THX recommended setting, not something you should consider a mandate. If your speakers are able to achieve usable output down to 35Hz then there's no reason you shouldn't try 50-60Hz and see how it works (I personally like how things sound much better with my system set at 60Hz). You never want to drive speakers to the lowest they can go, because that will diminish headroom and negatively affect dynamics, so the goal is to always set the crossover higher than that point. Experimenting will allow you to get a better sense of what things sound like in your room and to your ears. Perhaps 80Hz will work best for you, but maybe not.


I agree with Jman here. 80hz is what thx recommends, and it does work very well, for most systems, and rooms. Especially if all components are thx certified. However, it's still just a guideline. I have 12s in my mains, and they're rated to 35hz. I won't run them full range, but when I cross them at 50hz, they really come to life, although I leave them at 60. They also have 92db sensitivity, and I can drive them easily. The best thing is to experiment a little. No two rooms are the same! 
For subs? Any that you asked about would work in your room, at just over 1600cuft. Personally, of those mentioned, I would start with SVS, HSU, or rythmik. All three have stellar reputations. Might wanna check out PSA too.


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## Capnemo (Mar 18, 2014)

I have had inefficient and hi impedance speakers in the past, so I chose the Yamaha, which has good specs at 4 ohms as well as full pre outs for future separate amps. The NHT's are sounding great with it, using the biamp mode for the L/R Classic 4's ( in 5.1). 

Tough deciding on the sub-amp, further complicated by no output chart for the Rythmik LV12r. And I had just come across the PSA website before Willis7469 brought it up ;(


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Capnemo said:


> Tough deciding on the sub-amp, further complicated by no output chart for the Rythmik LV12r. And I had just come across the PSA website before Willis7469 brought it up ;(


Currently, in my opinion, you have a nice speaker/AVR match. Where do you want to go with your subwoofer purchase? How deep into the performance weeds do you want to go? Do you just want bass to augment the speakers or do you want room filling, soul hopping bass that's guaranteed to light your fire? Do you just want bass or do you want bass that you can feel? Do you just want some boom or do you want to feel the rumble and roll?

To help you understand my position on the matter, three points:

I am not the voice of reason.

I am a subwoofer enabler.

Subwoofers are a perfect case where money can buy happiness. The more you spend, the happier you will become.

..:devil:

In my opinion, subwoofers are the most enigmatic of home theater purchases and pretty much, budget wise, the toughest to nail down. In a largish room (<3000^3) that has openings to a dining room and large kitchen area, with no sonic restrictions like that of an apartment or condo association, money is the problem and money is the solution. The point, one can buy a pair of BIC F12s and be happy but a pair of F12s have zero chance of the smile factor provided by two or three of the more expensive choices that aren't on your list.

Are you in a free standing home or are you in an apartment/condo association? If any, what kind of volume restrictions do you have?

(if it helps, i have been all over this dog looking for fleas)

Maybe some of the more experienced forum participants will weigh in on the above.


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## Capnemo (Mar 18, 2014)

Beeman, thanks for your continuing advice to this noob.

1). Fortunate home owner of a detached house, corner lot, no HOA's. Hoever I do want to remain a decent neighbor . Commonly 10 PM onwards is expected to be quiet which is fine as I normally retire with a book around 11 anyway.

2). The room turns out to be smaller than I thought, 1300 cubic feet. Door will be closed (currently open for strong enough wifi to my Roku but that will be addressed, closed for DVD/bluray). Also the window will be replaced soon and I will go with one of the more sound insulating versions if the double pane models, for added volume without disturbing the nearest neighbor. Currently am making a foam barrier to press fit for temporary sound barrrier. May also foam the exterior wall internally from the top , kits are available, just be certain to use the slow expanding variety so as not to blow out the sheetrock!

3) I want the total HT experience, sensation and sonucs. But I want as musical as possible, and oh yes of course
for cheap.....yeah I know, pick two of the three: low reach/output vs musicality vs budget value. So yes I will benefit from room gain. But I would like to have flexibility in using in a two channel system down the road (with a matching sub) just in case. But my living room is my main 2 channel system, and I have second in the kitchen/family room. And I only want to deal with one sub for the HT, and the room is likely small enough to pressurize. Hey, I never pretended to be reasonable!

Rythmik: Unfortunately I cannot find any dB output charts to compare the Rythmik against the others....crying shame because the LV12R might suffice. But stops at 19hz....who knows about gain in my room. Reportedly quite musical. Again I cannot find any output charts to compare, somewhere I saw a baseline of their subs +/- in relation to one model, but no chart to establish that baseline. Also, I had thought shipping was included in Rythmik direct internet pricing, but shipping of $61 appears when I plug in a sub on the order page.



PSA: XS15 seems to lack in ultimate low end for HT per one review where is did not reveal the 16hz spectrum in a movie, but otherwise great. the XV15 gets comments like "not bad"musically,  other review was not as complimentary for music also listed at 21hz bottom end, seems unimpressive
For a 15" driver. XS $749 or $712 B stock. XV15 $799 and no B stock currently. I also hate their website comparisons as they use "room gain" estimates of which they have no idea whether those will be achieved or not, seems disingenouos of them to say the least.

SVS: SB2000 also seems to lack a bit for HT. Have not seen enough reviews or comparisons to know about the musicality of the PB2000, but plenty of 
output and reaches 17hz spec-wise. SB2000 B stock @ $649, PB2000 $799. (No B). PB2000 a real contender on paper but not much out for feedback.

Outlaw: LV+ has some chuffing but likely not far behind the HSU, go deep, decent output. If a B stock popped up @ $599 delivered I would likely take it. 

HSU: VT3 Mk4. Digs deep, 16hz, also sounds like it is decent with adjustments for music. Almost seems
to rob sales from their 15" model. Slightly better version of the Outlaw sub from what I hear. $669 sale+99
Ship, and for me sales tax est $54.

I will be passing thru Anaheim this week so could avoid shipping on an HSU, only tax to add to cost.
So I am leaning towards the VT3Mk4 on sale with tax @ est $723.

Rythmik 12 might be fine @ $599 + shipping, but I cannot find dB chart to compare output, also stops at 19hz.
The FV15 would have been maybe my first choice, but has been discontinued. And no output chart for the baseline reference sub.

Due to lack of specs on the Rythmic $599 + $61 shipping, it seems like it comes down to SVS PB2000 $799 delivered vs the HSU VT3 Mk4 picked up at 
$723.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Here's the rub, how much do you "want the total HT experience, sensation and sonucs."?

Based on all you posted above, the top dog that will get you where you want to go, is the XS30.

We have a Rythmik subwoofer system. For what it's worth, I'm a fanboy of Rythmik, PSA, SVS and Hsu. In this price range, although outside your intended budget, my opinion, the XS30 is what will put the indelible grin on your face and you won't have buyer's remorse, after getting it dialed in.

Just saying, anytime someone tries to save money on subwoofers, they find themselves wanting more and finally, they get caught up in the expensive whirlwind of upgraditis. If you don't want to go there, go with either the XS15 or the SB2000 but do so with the understanding that expectedly, you're not going have "the total HT experience, sensation and sonucs." Just saying, home theater is about output and depth of extension or if you will, rumble and roll. To be fair, a couple of devil's advocate links:

...:devil:

..."Unstoppable"

..."Pacific Rim"

...:devil:

It all depends on what you really want?

...

If you don't know about this site (data-bass), there are a lot of empirical measurements to be found that may give you some ideas. If you're ready to buy and you have a budget in mind while game for b-stock, give each of the manufactures a call. Many times they have b-stock but haven't had time to list it.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Capnemo said:


> Rythmik: Unfortunately I cannot find any dB output charts to compare the Rythmik against the others....crying shame because the LV12R might suffice. But stops at 19hz....who knows about gain in my room. Reportedly quite musical. Again I cannot find any output charts to compare, somewhere I saw a baseline of their subs +/- in relation to one model, but no chart to establish that baseline. Also, I had thought shipping was included in Rythmik direct internet pricing, but shipping of $61 appears when I plug in a sub on the order page.


Rythmik doesn't charge for shipping in the lower 48, so unless something changed just recently I don't think you have to worry about a charge for it.




Capnemo said:


> PSA: XS15 seems to lack in ultimate low end for HT per one review where is did not reveal the 16hz spectrum in a movie, but otherwise great. the XV15 gets comments like "not bad"musically, other review was not as complimentary for music also listed at 21hz bottom end, seems unimpressive
> For a 15" driver. XS $749 or $712 B stock. XV15 $799 and no B stock currently. I also hate their website comparisons as they use "room gain" estimates of which they have no idea whether those will be achieved or not, seems disingenouos of them to say the least.


It's not disingenuous because that's actually how the physics of it work. AAMOF, when designing a sealed subwoofer you're _supposed_ to account for it, so PSA is doing exactly what they should be. All the top-tier companies do the same thing, SVS included.

In a small room such as yours mid-teens is not an unreasonable expectation. The PSA subs are geared more toward the HT crowd, and for those who enjoy loud volume, so what you've read about them being less than the ultimate for music is probably correct (the 'not bad' comments you reference).




Capnemo said:


> SVS: SB2000 also seems to lack a bit for HT. Have not seen enough reviews or comparisons to know about the musicality of the PB2000, but plenty of output and reaches 17hz spec-wise. SB2000 B stock @ $649, PB2000 $799. (No B). PB2000 a real contender on paper but not much out for feedback.


The SB2000 should be very solid in the low bass, probably into the upper teens due to room gain. While generally not as musical as a Rythmik, SVS are known for some very precise bass.




Capnemo said:


> HSU: VT3 Mk4. Digs deep, 16hz, also sounds like it is decent with adjustments for music. Almost seemsto rob sales from their 15" model. Slightly better version of the Outlaw sub from what I hear. $669 sale+99 Ship, and for me sales tax est $54.


The HSU I can't comment on because I've never had the opportunity to hear one. The comments I've read seem to imply it's a nice subwoofer though.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Nemo, Beeman has given some good pointers to consider, so I'll not pile on too much. Just wanted to echo the upgraditis thing (man I hate that)! If you can stretch your budget a little, the rewards will be great. This is like, I've never heard anyone say "I wish I bought a smaller display". 
I am also a fan of SVS, and especially their cylinders. One of mine is a "plus" cylinder, and one a DIY copy. Anyways, they are a little beyond your "number", but they are tuneable for different levels if extension, and can be used as sealed. This provides a lot of versatility. (The boxes can be tuned also). I just had a couple minutes and thought i'd drop some more for you to chew on! I'll check in later. 
Will


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

+1 on the SVS PC12-Plus being special.


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## Capnemo (Mar 18, 2014)

Whoa, the Jman speaks . Hats off and thanks for the input!

But I am still curious...on PSA's XV15 comparison chart, they show the XV15, the PB2000, and the VTF3 all at 14hz including
room gain (conveniently they do not mention how many ports sealed/open on the VTF or the Q setting). The XV15's raw specs out at 21hz, the PB2000's to 17hz and the VT3's is at 16hz without room gain, but they all are 14 hz with room gain?
Plus the HSU VTF 15 is spec'd at16hz, but on the PSA chart with with room gain only reaching 21hz...Unbelievable!?

So you can see how a neophyte like mysef might look askance at their comparison. Or, are manufacturers claims
like power amps, there is no real standard unless defined?

That Data-Bass site helps a lot....no Rythmik LV12r listed but... I can extrapolate that the VTF3 is similar or likely a tad better than the Outlaw LF1-Ex.
Can also maybe assume that the PB2000 s a tad better than the PB12 NSD. No PSA's listed ;(

And if one can extrapolate that a Rythmik LV12 R is at or below the F12 (and with less reach low down?) the F12 is -9dB to th f15HP spec'd on the Data-Bass site chart.

As the Outlaw LF Ex is rated Bassaholic Large Room that would likely apply to the VTF3, making those two top of the heap for 12" subs, although likely not as musical as the Rythmik. Keep in mind my room is 160 square feet or 1344 cubic feet not 5000, which places it in the Bassaholic Small Room category.

PSA XV15 "nearly" reached the Bassaholic Extreme rating, and achieved Large Room rating easily.

The XS30 is too enormous, not to mention heavy (248lb?) not to mention beyond my budget.

Looks like the HSU vs the PSA XV15, the latter having more headroom and output, the HSU being tunable and likely more musical, and possibly being tuned to dig a little deeper unless the PDA chart shows it adjusted for maximum depth vs maximum output.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Capnemo said:


> The XS30 is too enormous, not to mention heavy (248lb?) not to mention beyond my budget.


FYI, it's 111lbs and when they have b-stock in stock, they're $1,092.00 USD which is a bit more than the up to $800.00 you've mentioned regarding the XV15.

Good luck with what ever you choose as in the end, you're the final arbiter.

...:T


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Looks like for $723.00, est. my choice would be the HSU. It's tunable, has the lowest cost, your close to Anaheim(?), everyone fawns over its capabilities, and being slightly under budget, you'll be able to save for all the Sheetrock you'll be replacing! (Or a 2nd sub) 2), repeat all the above. I wouldn't worry so much about the numbers either, and focus maybe a little more on the overall experience. If you did a triple blind listening test, I think you'd find the differences more subtle than you think. Especially in your given room size. And, if you really don't like it, you can bring it back. Seems like the least amount of risk to me. ...and 3) repeat above! 
Will


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

In a room the size of yours I would strongly suggest you consider sealed. That design plays very well in smaller spaces.



Capnemo said:


> But I am still curious...on PSA's XV15 comparison chart, they show the XV15, the PB2000, and the VTF3 all at 14hz including room gain (conveniently they do not mention how many ports sealed/open on the VTF or the Q setting). The XV15's raw specs out at 21hz, the PB2000's to 17hz and the VT3's is at 16hz without room gain, but they all are 14 hz with room gain? Plus the HSU VTF 15 is spec'd at16hz, but on the PSA chart with with room gain only reaching 21hz...Unbelievable!?
> 
> So you can see how a neophyte like mysef might look askance at their comparison. Or, are manufacturers claims like power amps, there is no real standard unless defined?


The numbers, charts, graphs, claims and rhetoric thrown around can confuse even the experienced, let alone someone new to it all, so what you're feeling is pretty normal. For sure, weeding through the claims to uncover the truth can be an arduous task.

If the 'comparison chart' you're referring to is the PSA Value Factor I can't really speak to that because I have no idea how they derived the information. Knowing Tom and Jim I imagine their is objective data behind it - because the two of them are about as honest as you're likely to encounter - but beyond that I can't say.




Capnemo said:


> That Data-Bass site helps a lot....no Rythmik LV12r listed but... I can extrapolate that the VTF3 is similar or likely a tad better than the Outlaw LF1-Ex. Can also maybe assume that the PB2000 s a tad better than the PB12 NSD. No PSA's listed ;(


The XV-15 has been tested by Josh, so you can get some info about that one.




Capnemo said:


> As the Outlaw LF Ex is rated Bassaholic Large Room that would likely apply to the VTF3, making those two top of the heap for 12" subs, although likely not as musical as the Rythmik. Keep in mind my room is 160 square feet or 1344 cubic feet not 5000, which places it in the Bassaholic Small Room category.


IIRC, the Outlaw was making quite a racket because of port compression (also referred to as 'chuffing'), so that's worth considering if you plan on cranking the volume. I believe Josh concluded the tuning wasn't setup correctly, something to keep in mind.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

theJman said:


> For sure, weeding through the claims to uncover the truth can be an arduous task.


Don't know where you get this from.......it only took me a year and a half to work through all the tall weeds.

...


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## Capnemo (Mar 18, 2014)

theJman said:


> IIRC, the Outlaw was making quite a racket because of port compression (also referred to as 'chuffing'), so that's worth considering if you plan on cranking the volume. I believe Josh concluded the tuning wasn't setup correctly, something to keep in mind.


That's why the VT3 Mk4 is attractive, it's the same driver and amp in a better tuned/ better vented cabinet.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Capnemo said:
That's why the VT3 Mk4 is attractive, it's the same driver and amp in a better tuned/ better vented cabinet.
And you can seal it! Like Jman said, small room, sealed sub= lots of potential. You wouldn't have to, but it never hurts to have options.


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