# Different Wire Gauge



## alexadams77 (Aug 4, 2007)

Right now I'm using 16 gauge Monster wire for my surrounds and 14 gauge for my mains/center. If I were to go to 14 gauge for the surrounds, would I notice a difference in sound? I only turn up my system about twice a month to reference levels, the rest of the time I'm listening at like -40 at best.


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

the two most important things to consider with wire gauge are power and distance.

You say you aren't running a lot of power to them, so a lower gauge is probably fine.

How long is the run to the speakers? If the wiring is 50' or more, I'd upgrade to the 14 gauge. If it's only 20' or so, 16 gauge is more than enough. If it's 100', I would even bump up to 12 gauge.

So your mileage may vary, but usually I put 14 gauge in as a minimum. It's middle of the road, allows for more power later, and is a LOT cheaper than 12 gauge. However if changing it out is a hassle, the 16 gauge is fine.


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## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

Gauge of wire only needs to be increased if you have a long run I highly doubt increasing the gauge will help at all unless you have a 50 foot or longer run. Also, next time you get speaker wire I would suggest saving some money and going monoprice or blujeancables as they both will be cheaper and perform as well as monster.


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## alexadams77 (Aug 4, 2007)

Changing out the wire isn't a problem at all, that's why I was just wondering. Based on the route the wire takes to my receiver, I'd say that I'm at about 50' or more.

Is there a big difference in sound with the different types of wires out there as well?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

alexadams77 said:


> Is there a big difference in sound with the different types of wires out there as well?


Short answer is No,
Monster will have you believe that there is a difference but Many people who have the right equipment to test say that they do not. Your paying for a name only. As long as the copper is good quality any brand will do, even RCA.


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## alexadams77 (Aug 4, 2007)

I'm pretty sure that when I bought this speaker wire (10 years ago) I was told that it was the best stuff on the market at that time.

I think that I might upgrade my main speaker wire as well. I bought it at the same time I bought the monster wire. It's............4 or possibly 6 wires (4 pos/4 neg) intertwined/braided together. It was supposed to be this new thing out at the time that would give you a better connection. I jumped on it, but I haven't seen anything like it since and the place where I bought it from doesn't sell it anymore either.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

The braided wire is actually not one one the snske oils but if you are getting something besides Monster I envy you. I was restricted to local wire (or told so) and it was my only option. I planned my theater and about the time I was done planning the construction crew was ready to hang up the drywall. I guess I could have sent them home and explained to my folks why ordering the 400ft of wire online was necessary. It is my own fault I got the Monster but there were certainly many factors out there against me. I let my fellow forum members down.


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## alexadams77 (Aug 4, 2007)

At the levels that I listen to my HT, I don't think that I'd be able to tell the difference between the different companies, maybe the different gauges of wire, but still I don't think that I would.


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## Big Worm (Mar 8, 2007)

alexadams77 said:


> Changing out the wire isn't a problem at all, that's why I was just wondering. Based on the route the wire takes to my receiver, I'd say that I'm at about 50' or more.
> 
> Is there a big difference in sound with the different types of wires out there as well?


If it is easy enough you could always try it yourself. That is what I would do.


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## alexadams77 (Aug 4, 2007)

I just really don't want to waste my money on different types of wire gauges. I think that I'm going to just do 14 or even 12 if it's feasible.


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## Scuba Diver (Sep 28, 2007)

12 is not very expensive. I guess it depends on if you want the fancy name on it. 200 feet of 12 is only 75.00. Thats not bad.


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## alexadams77 (Aug 4, 2007)

I didn't think that 12 gauge would be so cheap. I can do my entire system for that price. Where can you get the wire for that cheap?


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

Try Parts Express (they sell different brands, but the generic is just fine).

Bluejeanscable.com

Monoprice.com

I have an installer discount at PE, so obviously I buy all my stuff there, but the other two are perfectly okay.

Part Number 100-025, Dayton 12-2, 100' roll, $60 or 60 cents a foot
Part Number 100-021, Dayton 14-2, 100' roll, $45 or 45 cents a foot

Longer and shorter spools available. When I said it was much more expensive, I meant it (33% more for 12 gauge), but at shorter runs, it's not too bad. Oh, those cables listed are NOT rated for inwall -- that's a bit more.

good luck.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

It was my first attempt, but there's a nice link in the show notes for this episode: http://realht.info/EpisodePages/EP001.html


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Scuba Diver said:


> 12 is not very expensive. I guess it depends on if you want the fancy name on it. 200 feet of 12 is only 75.00. Thats not bad.


I bought some at The Home Depot up here in Canada for $90 Thats what I have my speakers wired with.


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## alexadams77 (Aug 4, 2007)

I think that I'll have to check out the Home Depot. I went to Future Shop the other day and the wire was over a dollar a foot! They didn't seem to have some "low grade" cheap stuff there.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

As Anthony said, don't forget monoprice, the first place you should go when buying cables or wire. 100' of 12 is $37 shipped, 200' is $65, 300' is $94. Also have 14, 16, 18 if you're not looking to overkill.

Edit: Oh wait, future shop...you're in Canada. Well, monoprice may still be your best bet, I'm just not sure what the shipping $$ would be (they do ship there though).


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## alexadams77 (Aug 4, 2007)

As long as the wire is made in the US, it should be worth the price. If not, then you have all the other taxes, tariffs and other fun stuff added on to that. I'll look them up and see what they have to offer and see how much it would be delivered.


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## alexadams77 (Aug 4, 2007)

Has anyone heard that all the speaker wire has to be the same size? Like the Mains and Center being both 12 ft (for instance) and the surrounds being both 20 ft?

I heard this when I first bought speaker wire a few years back from a local HT shop. I could understand having, for instance, LC 12 ft of wire and the RC 30 ft, but is there any logic to this?


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## avaserfi (Jul 5, 2007)

alexadams77 said:


> Has anyone heard that all the speaker wire has to be the same size? Like the Mains and Center being both 12 ft (for instance) and the surrounds being both 20 ft?
> 
> I heard this when I first bought speaker wire a few years back from a local HT shop. I could understand having, for instance, LC 12 ft of wire and the RC 30 ft, but is there any logic to this?


Don't worry so much about speaker wire. In the end all good speaker wire will work properly. The definition of good in this case is the appropriate gauge for distance run and it being copper! The speakers don't care if the gauges matter or not, what the brand is or anything. Just get the right gauge for the distances you have run and focus on aspects of the system that actually effect sound like acoustics, placement, speakers etc...


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> Like the Mains and Center being both 12 ft (for instance) and the surrounds being both 20 ft?


Electricity travels near the speed of light in a wire (modified slightly by the wires velocity factor).

This speed is approximated to about a nanosecond a foot. So, if one speaker wire was 50 feet longer than the other, then that signal would arrive about 50 nanoseconds later than the other.

Well, this is about 1000 times less than human hearing can even begin to detect, so don't worry about the lengths of your cables and phase differences.

brucek


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## alexadams77 (Aug 4, 2007)

So, as always, never listen to people selling you **** at HT Stores. For the amount of ** these people tell you, I often wonder how much stuff they really do know?

Since I'm up in Canada, would it be smarter to hit up Home Depot for the wire or order the stuff from the US? I'm pretty sure it'll be around $20 or so for shipping and these misc extra charges they conjure up at the boarder.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

alexadams77 said:


> So, as always, never listen to people selling you **** at HT Stores. For the amount of ** these people tell you, I often wonder how much stuff they really do know?
> 
> Since I'm up in Canada, would it be smarter to hit up Home Depot for the wire or order the stuff from the US? I'm pretty sure it'll be around $20 or so for shipping and these misc extra charges they conjure up at the boarder.


Well, pull up your order on monoprice and see how much that would be. Then, call home depot and see what they sell their wire for. Then you'll have your answer.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

alexadams77 said:


> Has anyone heard that all the speaker wire has to be the same size? Like the Mains and Center being both 12 ft (for instance) and the surrounds being both 20 ft?


In a perfect installation the speaker wire length and gauge should be the same for the front left and right speakers as well as the center (the rear channels should also be the same so if you run a 30' speaker wire to the right rear you should do the same for the left rear and so on). Put simply The reason for this is there is a slight and I mean slight delay and power loss the longer the wire is so if you have a 20' length on the right channel and only a 5' length on the left there will be a small delay on the longer length. This is the same for video particularly over component all three cables must be the same length.


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> This is the same for video particularly over component all three cables must be the same length


Mmmm, video bandwidth is about 1000 times higher than audio. Makes sense to maintain uniformity in a cable transmitting +20MHz signals, but it's not too important when the upper limit of the signal is 20KHz (as in audio).... 

brucek


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

brucek said:


> Mmmm, video bandwidth is about 1000 times higher than audio. Makes sense to maintain uniformity in a cable transmitting +20MHz signals, but it's not too important when the upper limit of the signal is 20KHz (as in audio)....
> 
> brucek


Fully agree with you, just trying to explain it in easy terms without getting technical.


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## alexadams77 (Aug 4, 2007)

I guess that I am being lazy and should just call and see for myself how much the wire is going to cost.

I haven't noticed a difference with the stuff I have now, so I'm sure I won't notice it when the new stuff comes either.


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

Rarely will the wire gauge make a huge difference in sound, especially for lower volume levels.

What happens when you move to larger wire is the speaker will sound louder IF the previous wire was too small. Basically, the small wire is too thin for the current (more resistance) heats up, and raises the resistance even further. So it limits the dynamics of the speaker a bit, but not much. Keep in mind, we're not talking about heating up the wire enough to start a fire. 

The larger wire has a lower internal resistance and can handle the larger current loads, thereby allowing the speaker to get loud when it needs to.

The only time I noticed this difference was when I moved from throwaway lamp cord (18 gauge) to 12 gauge. Big improvement and I was hooked (this was over 10 years ago). I was worried when I "downgraded" to 14 gauge for my in-wall runs, because 12 gauge wouldn't fit in the conduit I ran. My worries were unfounded, the speakers sound great and I don't miss any of the music or movie.

So don't fret over it too much. When you feel the itch, I'd upgrade to 14 gauge all around and be done with it. If you want to put that off, you won't be hurting anything.

AC


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## alexadams77 (Aug 4, 2007)

I'm slowly revamping my entire HT and wire was on my list. I'll go 14 gauge for sure all around, but after reading some of the posts, I don't think that I need to make that change anytime soon though.


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## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

May be a dumb question, but why are you replacing the wire if what you already have is sufficient?

Any install I do that is not going to exceed 70Watts gets plan old Figure8 flex, The Aus standard for this is 7.5 Amps which is sufficient for about 100/150 watts (assuming you aren't trying to run it over a few hundred metres)


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## alexadams77 (Aug 4, 2007)

I'm re-doing my HT Room/Equipment/Speakers right now and figure I'd do things right this time. The wire run from my AVR to the surrounds is about 50ft and I'm using 16 gauge wire. One of the wires wasn't long enough, so I had to add to that piece as well.

My Mains need to be spread out as I sit 12' away from the speakers, yet the speakers are only 7' apart. The wire for the mains isn't long enough and I don't have any spare wire laying around. Since I need to buy wire for the mains, I figure that I'd buy wire at the same time for the surrounds.


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

No one has mentioned/asked what the speakers are. A minor increase in impedance due to running higher gauge wire means much more for speakers that might dip as low as 2 ohms than for speakers that drop to 8 ohms at their minimums. And in fact most of the gauges people have mentioned are thinner than what I would have used for those distances.

I am basically using 11awg to my subwoofers, mains, center, and left/right surrounds. Longest line is maybe 20 feet. I'm using 14awg to my rear surrounds at a distance of about 40 feet, but only because I wanted flat wire to run along the ceiling.

This is the mapping of gauge to distance that Secrets uses, and says that is the guideline for many including THX:

87' => 06awg
69' => 07awg
58' => 08awg
43' => 09awg
34' => 10awg
27' => 11awg
22' => 12awg
17' => 13awg
14' => 14awg
11' => 15awg
09' => 16awg
07' => 17awg
05' => 18awg

Of course, that's sort of infeasible for surrounds in many cases, and surrounds also tend not to have as much heavy duty work as mains or the center. And those numbers are most likely designed to be safe for speakers that are harder to drive.

If you've got 22 feet of 12awg copper wire, that's 0.035 ohms. If your speaker dips to 2 ohms, then the wire has a affect ~1.7%.

Alex is saying he'll use 50 feet of 16awg copper wire, which is 0.201 ohms. If his speaker is 8 ohms minimum, then that's only ~2.5%. But if his speakers dipped to 2 ohms, then that'd be 10%. If he went with 9awg copper wire, then it'd be back closer to ~2% with speakers dipping down to 2 ohms.

American Wire Gauge lets you do this calculation yourself.


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## Scuba Diver (Sep 28, 2007)

www.outpost.com Not sure if they sell it online. Fry's store if you have one around you. Don't go to the stereo department. Go to computers and look at the wiring you will find good low priced cables. Was just in the store today. It was selling for $80.00 for 250 feet. 

Ebay has had it on there for cheap. 

http://www.lenexpo-electronics.com/product.php?productid=16755

http://www.bestpriceaudiovideo.com/catalog/43/2142/?zmam=1962870&zmas=1&zmac=4&zmap=2142


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

brucek is right, for audio, given that the gauge is generally OK (12 gauge is good), then matching lengths is not important. Entirely different story for three 75 ohm impedance coax cables used for component video wiring -- they should be the same length due to the very much higher frequencies involved.


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## hddummy (Mar 9, 2007)

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

I go by this. Check it out.


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

I defy anyone to point out or show me an audible difference or audio measurement difference "coming from the speakers" by using different gauge wire, as long as the wire is 16 gauge or thicker for runs of 0-50'.
In my world it just don't happen.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

For a million dollars... :bigsmile:


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

ISLAND1000 said:


> I defy anyone to point out or show me an audible difference or audio measurement difference "coming from the speakers" by using different gauge wire, as long as the wire is 16 gauge or thicker for runs of 0-50'.
> In my world it just don't happen.


Depends on how much and how low of bass the speaker is using. Damping factor plays a big part in letting the power amp control the speaker cone accurately especially for the lower frequencies. It does not take very much extra resistance in the wire to affect the damping factor for an amplifier that has a very high one. Small satellite speakers crossed at 120 Hz may not really need 12 gauge wire.


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

A million dollars!!! . . . . . uh . . . . no . . . . how bout a buck two eighty?
And don't forget, I'm old enough to remember when Mr. Bell first banged some copper into threads to make the first wire . . . .


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Ah shucks... I thought maybe you were ready to make one of those Jame Randi offers. :whistling:


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

ISLAND1000 said:


> I defy anyone to point out or show me an audible difference or audio measurement difference "coming from the speakers" by using different gauge wire, as long as the wire is 16 gauge or thicker for runs of 0-50'.
> In my world it just don't happen.


You could probably easily do it with some electostats, and 16awg 50' of wire. They can easily drop below 2 ohms at some points. That's why they're notoriously hard to drive. I don't have electostats, or 16awg wire.


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

It would be great if people would do some real listening tests using different cables, bi-wiring, bi-amping, etc. Most of the stuff out in cyberspace is based on theory, or prejudice. My biggest problem with "high end" speaker wire and such like is: "is there really that much of an improvent based on price?" . My guess is that doubling the price does not improve the sound by two. Dennis


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Your guess and observations are pretty much correct IME. There is not much relation between performance and price in many cases, and there is far to much chatter based on limited information, marketing hype, hearsay, personal bias, and assumptions. Those who have kept an open mind and done some real experimentation usually realize that there can be significant differences, but they bear little resemblance to the marketing that accompanies the product.


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

You can buy exotic high end cables that change the sound by making the signal worse.  Audio's all subjective!


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Audio should be objective, but very few are willing to do the science to get past the subjective perspective. Listening and enjoying are subjective.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

It isn't like buying a movie that one never watches more than blue moon. I think impulse buyers :spend: are the people that need some guidance, not the people with expensive cables. It is also important not to confuse the words expensive and exotic. High end cables cost more to make and therefore will always cost more than one that is made (not specifically meaning anyones) with average quality materials. It is however one of the last things that will improve a system.


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

I don't have the capacity, I can't resist so I yield . . . . to . . . . "thewire".


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## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

And Island1000 charges up with another shocking electrical joke!! but I am a Faraid you'll have to do better than that.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Now this thread is finally starting to get me amped.


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

:clap: Hyeh Hegh


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Actually after a little bit of research I find that these work best once you cut the ends off, force all the strands *that you can *into a spade lug and solder.










:bigsmile:


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

I'd like to see you squeeze those ends into a connector!! Dennis


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## drf (Oct 22, 2006)

lcaillo said:


> Now this thread is finally starting to get me amped.


If ohmly I could keep up.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

ISLAND1000 said:


> I don't have the capacity, I can't resist so I yield . . . . to . . . . "thewire".


onder:.....Get em spike!


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

That was intended to be a joke yes.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

bobgpsr said:


> Actually after a little bit of research I find that these work best once you cut the ends off, force all the strands *that you can *into a spade lug and solder.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why cut the ends off... those look like good spade substitutes there... just clamp-n-go! :whistling:


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

thewire said:


> That was intended to be a joke yes.


 :innocent: Yes, I was in a strange mood and it just happened. If I must apologize I do. But when you hold me to task, consider how these other individuals have jumped on the opportunity to "shake a buzzer" so to speak . . . . . aren't they too to be held to the same standard? We're such a fun loving group here and even though we daily handle some of the worlds most intricate and important subjects and answers, we should be allowed an unseemly outburst occassionally don't you think? :neener:


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

ISLAND1000 said:


> :innocent: Yes, I was in a strange mood and it just happened. If I must apologize I do. But when you hold me to task, consider how these other individuals have jumped on the opportunity to "shake a buzzer" so to speak . . . . . aren't they too to be held to the same standard? We're such a fun loving group here and even though we daily handle some of the worlds most intricate and important subjects and answers, we should be allowed an unseemly outburst occassionally don't you think? :neener:


the timing was good for an outburst


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

Whew! Thanks.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2008)

Another item you might consider is the use of solid core wires, but if your minimizing cost I'm not sure where to point you for the most affordable options. 

I would totally agree with the posters on page one (both that longer runs demand a better shielded and thicker cable to reduce interference and resistance) and that buying brand name doesn't necessarily guarantee a great product.

For example, I remember reading reviews of solid core stuff several years ago when Kimber Kable first came out with their braiding strategy where reviewers would go to Radio Shack and purchase solid core wire, braid it, and see what results arrived. turns out they didn't necessarily like it better than the high priced versions, but for the money, they were convinced it was still better than several name brand items (think Monster) selling for more. 

I hope this information helps your decision and good luck in your application!


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