# Looking to upgrade my system



## Guest (Jul 9, 2007)

Hi Guys,
This is my first post so please go easy on me. I did not know where else to post this so I put it here. If need 

be, please move it to the relevent section or let me know how to do it. Anyway here goes:

I'm not exactly new to home theater, as I have been tinkering into it for about 10 years, but this time i need 

some good advice. Anyway, I am thinking about purchasing new speakers and a new receiver for my HT. I 

also have a HTPC that I will attach to it. 

My current setup is:
HTPC
Toshiba 5 DVD carousal
YAMAHA 90w x5 channel receiver
Technis Dolby Digital and DTS decoder/processor
Pioneer Receiver 60w x4 prologic (using in stereo mode to powere passive woofers)
Audiosource- 5 speakers (really cheap craptacular)
2x Optimus passive 12" woofers

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The system I am looking to upgrade to must be 7.2 (2 subs unless 1 would be enough)

I plan to keep these speakers/setup for about 10 years.

My Budget is about $2000-$2500 (could go to $3000 if REALLY necessary, but rather not.)

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The receivers I was looking at are Harmon Kardon or Yamaha

Questions on these:

1. Which one would be good for my room/setup? I want to spend between $400-$675 on the receiver.

2. I know that HKs have lower rated power than the equivalent yahama models but some people state that 

even then.. the HKs play just as loud and yet "cleaner". is this true..?

3. I like Yamaha's CINEMA DSP Tri-Field but I heard Harman Kardon's Logic 7 is good too. Which one is better 

for DSP ?

4. I think about 75-100 watts per channel RMS is plenty for my room. Should this be enough?

5. I can only buy a receiver that has 8 channel input for my HTPC. Do receivers use the DSP surround fields 

for the 8 input channels..? (The current yamaha i have bypasses this for 6 channel input.)

6. As you can see in the diagram... there is nothing but a window behind the couch. How/where would I put 

the rear speakers in the 7.2 system.

7. The subs I am looking at are WAY MORE powerful than my current ones. The ones I have are located 

underneath the end tables. They already rattle the end table glass occasionally during peak explosions. Will 

more powerful subs have a chance to actually BREAK the glass..?

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Originally I was going to go all Klipsch and a Harmon Kardon receiver, as my local BestBuy salesman will give 

me a major deal but I am thinking that there might be better deals to look at on the internet.

Here is the original Klipsch and Harmon Kardon deal at BestBuy..

Harmon Kardon 
AVR-247 7.1-Ch. A/V 50wx7 Home Theater Receiver 

AND

Klipsch:
Synergy III 4" 2-Way Center-Channel Speaker
Synergy III 6-1/2" 2-Way Floorstanding Speaker (Front pair)
2x Synergy III 4" 2-Way Dual-Tweeter Surround Speakers (Pair)
2x SUB-12 (12" 650W Powered Subwoofer) (Pair)
or
Synergy III 4" 2-Way Center-Channel Speaker
Synergy III 6-1/2" 2-Way Floorstanding Speaker (Front pair)
1x Synergy III 4" 2-Way Dual-Tweeter Surround Speakers (Pair)
1x Synergy III 5-1/4" 2-Way Bookshelf Speakers (Pair)
2x SUB-12 (12" 650W Powered Subwoofer) (Pair)

I would get all this at BestBuy for about $2500 including 4 year services plan on everything. 

It would be about $2300 if I replace the (Synergy III 6-1/2" 2-Way) Floorstanding Speakers with (Synergy III 

6-1/2" 2-Way) Bookshelfs. 

What do you guys think?.. Are the above BestBuy prices good deals..?

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Online is a whole other can of worms!!

For Online-

The Receivers I am looking at are:

Harman Kardon-
AVR 247 50x7(same as the Bestbuy offer but cheaper)
AVR 630 75x7
AVR 635 75x7
or any other HK model you guys might suggest..

YAMAHA-
not sure which model yet.. any suggestions..?

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The speakers I am currently looking for online are:

7 Speaker-

Bic America Acoustech:
Cinema Series HT-65 (Center)
Cinema Series HT-75 Pair (Front Towers 1 pair)
Cinema Series HT-63 (Surround SIDE 1 pair)
Cinema Series HT-63 or BIC Acoustech HT-64 ((Surround REAR 1 pair)
(no sub)

..or...

SVSound:
SCS-01 (Center)
SBS-01 (Front, SIDE, REAR 3 pairs)
(no sub)

..or...

AV123:
x-cs Center/Main/Surround Loudspeaker (7 identical speakers)
or
x-cs Center/Surround SIDEs & REARs (5 speakers)
x-ls Bookshelf Loudspeaker (1 pair)
or
x-cs Center/REARs (3 speakers)
x-mtm Tower Loudspeaker (1pair)
x-ls Bookshelf Loudspeaker SIDEs(1 pair)
(no sub)

..or...

HSU Research
HC-1 Horn Center Channel 
HB-1 Horn Bookshelf Speaker (Front, SIDE, REAR 3 pairs)
(no sub)

Of these main speakers, I am leaning towartds the BICs the most as it has a very Klipsch like horn tweeter 

setup. Which ones do YOU guys reccommend?

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SUBs-

I want to spend about $1000-$1200 for a Subwoofer setup and would like to buy a pair for even bass 

disbursement (unless 1 is enough). Basically When the T-Rex in Jurrasic Park enters the scene... I want it to 

seem like it is in the room!! My room is not that big.. so I think I can achieve this in my budget.

The subs I am looking at are...

BIC Acoustech:
2x H-100 Subwoofer (only goes down to 24hz, would having 2 bring it down to 18hz ?)

..or...

HSU Research:
2x VTF-2 MK 3
or
2x VTF-3 MK 3 ( this would make the total price of 2 of these $1400 which is past my $1200 limit but I am 

still considering it.)
or 
1x VTF-3 HO with Turbocharger

..or...

SVSound:
2x PC Cylinder subs (I want them to be at least 12" subs...not sure which models though)
or
2x PB12-NSD
or
1x PB12-Plus/2

Of the Subwoofers. I am thinking leaning to either.. 
... a pair of BIC H-100s (cheapest) 
or a pair of HSU Research VTF-2 MK 3 
or a pair of SVSound PB12-NSD.

What do you guys reccommend ?

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I have attached a rough diagram of my living room area to give an idea of my room setup. 

The blue and gradient blue (stairs) areas are my living room space. The total square feet of the living room + 

stairs is.. 234.79 sq ft. The living room is open to the kitchen and foyer.

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Ok.. so there you have it!!
As stated before.. budget is $2000-$3000.. but want to stay around $2500.
-Which receiver is the best for my room/budget/DSP needs..?
-Which Speaker Combination is the best..?
-Which Subwoofers are the best for my needs..?

Thank you guys ahead of time..


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## Otto (May 18, 2006)

*Re: I really need somebodies HELP !!!*

Well, I'm having some real trouble making a nice post (lost it twice now), so I'll try this:

First, welcome to the Shack, thxcertified.

In general, I think you'll be OK with those receivers. You may want to consider one with an HDMI 1.3 input to process the new audio formats from HD-DVD/BluRay, but that may not be important to you.

I think you should run from your PC to your receiver with a digital connection, unless you need the 7.1 channel output for HD-DVD/BluRay processing that only your PC can do. If your PC is being used for music/DVDs, I would run a digital connection for audio. Your receiver will then definitely be able to apply DSP to the signal. Many receivers don't process the incoming 7.1 signals because your DVD player should handle that duty. 

I think you should only start with one sub. Two subs can actually be more difficult to integrate into the room. With the big subs you are considering, you will probably only need one. Plus, it's always easier to add another one later if you find you really want it. 

If a sub's frequency response is rated to 24 Hz, having two of them will just give you a 3 dB increase in output across the frequency range.  So it would depend on the sub's output level at 18 Hz. If one sub has no output at the frequency of interest, then adding more won't help. If it slopes off from 24 to 18 Hz, then adding more _may_ help. I would also consider a Behringer BFD (see the BFD links at the top of this page) for sub equalization.

I don't think you have any room to do a seven-channel setup. You're right, that couch is too close to the window to put any speakers _behind_ you.

Taking the two previous paragraphs into consideration, I'd suggest you start with a sweet 5.1 system and see how it goes. I would not insist on a 7.2 system in that room; if you find that 5.1 just isn't enough, you can add more later. That also allows you to spread your investment over more time, allowing you to buy better stuff now.

I don't know about the subs _breaking_ the glass tables. I guess it's possible, but I don't think these subs are going to fit under the table anymore! The SVS subs are very popular around here, I'd have a look at them.

As to which speakers, it seems like you have a good start on what you might like, and that you've done quite a bit of research. I think that you should go out and listen to as many as possible. To me, speakers have the greatest impact on the system's overall sound. I find that Best Buy isn't usually a good place to audition speakers (if they have a Magnolia center in the corner of that BB, it's a better place to listen to speakers, and they also have _nicer_ speakers back there). With many of these ID brands you listed, they have a 30-day money back period, and some will pick up shipping in both directions. In the end, it's up to you, of course, but if you're considering keeping these speakers for some time I think you should find something that suits your needs. Listen to material that you would normally use, be it music or movies. Listen at volumes you would normally listen -- make sure it doesn't get fatiguing after a while; some of the "brighter" speakers tend to do that for me.

Anyway, I think that's it for now.

Good luck and let us know if you have any more questions!


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

*Re: I really need somebodies HELP !!!*



Otto said:


> .....I think you should only start with one sub. Two subs can actually be more difficult to integrate into the room. With the big subs you are considering, you will probably only need one. Plus, it's always easier to add another one later if you find you really want it....
> 
> I don't think you have any room to do a seven-channel setup. You're right, that couch is too close to the window to put any speakers _behind_ you....
> 
> Taking the two previous paragraphs into consideration, I'd suggest you start with a sweet 5.1 system and see how it goes. I would not insist on a 7.2 system in that room; if you find that 5.1 just isn't enough, you can add more later. That also allows you to spread your investment over more time, allowing you to buy better stuff now.....


I agree, you can start with one sub and add another in the future if you need it :yes: If you want to feel the T Rex entering the room: What about a buttkicker??? :huh::huh: .....

Can you move the couch far from the wall???? ... I'm not sure (correct me if I'm wrong) but I think if you move it a little it will help. My seats are also close to the wall about one feet, and I like the sound.

If you start with a 5.1 system .... I suggest you to get a 7.1 receiver and use it as a 5.1 :yes::yes: ... in that case if later you want a 7.1 you don't need to get another receiver, just the speakers :T:T:T.


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: I really need somebodies HELP !!!*

Figure out the total cubic feet in your living room (length x width x height) and then contact SVS about what would be suitable sub(s) for movie reference playback. Then get back to here for more opinions. Looks like it may be a fairly big room to fill.


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## Blaser (Aug 28, 2006)

*Re: I really need somebodies HELP !!!*

Well.... about one sub vs 2 subs...I would say that in my case and in many others, 2 subs can help about some standing waves problems... and bass "distribution"

I would consider Dual SVS subs if room allows....Or dual DIYs if it's your game.


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## jawhn (Aug 3, 2007)

*Re: I really need somebodies HELP !!!*

My suggestions are to start with a 5.1 setup (less money and you won't notice much difference with your setup), 1sub (SVS and HSU), HK or Yamaha 7.1 (that way you can upgrade) receiver. Speakers are a VERY personal choice. Buy the best you can afford (and only ones that have a good return policy). There are many "internet only" companys that have GREAT speakers and good return policies (personally I would avoid BIC). LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN, before you buy!!!!!!! If the glass table rattles, insulate it or get rid of it! One more thing that I would suggest is a GOOD universial remote (Harmony is popular $100-150 and worth every penny). I have a Phillips Pronto, which I love, but it is more expensive and has a MUCH higher learning curve. And don't waste money on overpriced cables (MONSTER)!


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2007)

*Re: I really need somebodies HELP !!!*

thanks everyone for responding... you were ALL very helpful in my descion making.

Here is what i bought:

1. Used Harman Kardon AVR 7300 (this was the flagship model in 2005!!!) 110watts x7 full bandwith!!!

2. Infinity BETA series 360center (arrived yesterday.. HUGE!), 2x 40 BETAs for fronts, 4x BETA tripole surrounds. (should arrive today)

3. 1 SVS PB12–Plus/2 (Really Really huge... 150 lbs!!)

Funny story:

I received the SVS sub first. I was trying to get it to bottom out and I couldn't!! Instead, the cops showed up... and told me that i have to turn the bass down because get this..., "The people, in the apartments, across the ravine BEHIND you house are complaining because the bass is rattling their place!". I was biting my lip from saying, "WOW, that's awesome!!" I know it was not the neighbors complaining from MY street since they ALL work nightshift.

Anyway, I haven't even hooked up the HK and Infinitys yet but will today when the rest of the Infinitys arrive.

So.. Now I am having to get my basement finished and audio gear moved down there, in order to NOT get kicked out of my neighborhood!!.. one nice thing is that since i am finishing the basement and getting a front projector and screen... I don't have to worry about cramped space and get FULL 7.1 channels.

BTW: I don't think 7.1 matters that much for movies but since I am building a HTPC.. all the PC games support a FULL 7 channel output from analog outs from the sound card. So 7 channel DOES make a differnce for PC games. Somtimes when someone is talking behind me in a game, using a 5.1 setup, They sound like they are huge and comp[ing from BOTH side speakers. This is where rear stero speakers would make a difference!!

Thanks again for your sugestions and i will keep you posted..


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

*Re: I really need somebodies HELP !!!*

Let us know how you like those Infinity mains, center and surrounds. Those are now Infinity's flagship speakers, it would be interesting to know how you think they do as a complete HT loudspeaker system. You probably would have done just as well with the BETA 20s for your surrounds. With room acoustics you might be selecting the monopole configuration with the ES250s anyways. 

I've only heard the BETA 50s and thought those were pretty good.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: I really need somebodies HELP !!!*

Looks like you did quite well for yourself -- and that is a great story about the sub! That's definitely gotta put a :bigsmile: on your face everytime you think of it.

So, how did you find your way to the Infinity's? I always enjoy hearing the process -- what else they listened to, why they liked speaker x over speaker y, etc.

Finally -- when everything is setup, pictures. We need to see your new babies in their new home!

Congratulations.

JCD


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