# DIY Newbie Questions



## azjimmy (Jun 5, 2006)

Ok, so my wife and I are a DIY newbie’s when it comes to speakers. I’ve been reading a lot online for the last few weeks and have some ideas and questions that I’d like to pose to some of you “DIY Pros”.

I just purchased the “Speaker Builder’s Bible” from MadiSound. Any other resources or books that you would suggest? I don’t have an engineering degree, but I do build aircraft engines, so technical articles don’t scare me too much.
I have some woodworking tools (circular saw, brad nailer, hand drill, clamps etc). I know I’ll need some other equipment, so which would be the better to get first, router or table saw. Is a Rotozip/Dremmel a good replacement for a router to cut baffles? Soldering iron for the crossovers etc?
The first design I want to tackle is a center channel. I was thinking of doing a redesign of my current CC (JBL S-Center II) with a WMTW like BrianB has on his page, using the old OEM drivers as a start. Any ideas on how to get some of the specs on the OEM drivers to use in WinISD? I would like to save a bit at the start by re-using my current drivers. Or should I just start with divers from PE and go from there?
I would like to eventualy do a whole 5.0 system. Does using the WMTW suggested above limit the type of speaker for my mains? Should I go a bit more simple to start and then move up?
 We have always wanted to start a DIY speaker project, but I haven’t had the time until now. I am looking at surgery coming up soon and a long recovery time following that. I think doing something like this could be therapeutic. All your help is greatly appreciated.
Jim​


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Jim,

I jumped into DIY last year myself. It was a lot of fun and would suggest it for anyone. As someone who doesn't know that much either and has gone through the process, I might be able to help you more than most -- well, at least I hope so!

Anyway, to answer your questions:

1) The book that I think gets the most "play" is the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason. A new version JUST came out. As a result, the previous version is on sale at Madisound for $11. Someone said that there are 42 more pages, mostly about baffle size and shape, although, I'd expect that some of the designs they have in the book are new too. I like to think of myself as a fairly intelligent person, but I have to say, my first read of the book (well, I've only read about half) was pretty tough. Now that I've gone through the process, and gotten a little more forum reading in, it makes more sense, but there is still a little bit of mystery involved. Also, depending on whether you go with building from the ground up or going with an existing kit, you may not need anything anyway.

2) Hmm, this is a tough one. Well, how about this -- you will NEED a router (preferably a plunge router), but trust me on this one, a table saw will be EXTREMELY helpful. And, unfortunately, the rotozip/dremmel devices I don't think get the job done. If you're going to be building with MDF, I've heard that the bits get gunked up pretty fast and I think there will be some issues when you get to the point where you flush mount your drivers. Which brings me to the Jasper jigs -- these are (almost) a must for flush mounting a driver.

3) Well, if you're going to be using the old drivers, you could just measure the volume of the current box. I'm not sure how much you're going to get out of that though unless you just want to practice making a box. However, to answer your question, I wouldn't be surprised if the T/S parameters are unavailable. Given all that, I'd suggest going with new drivers.

4) My suggestion here would be to pick a "kit" or "design" already out there and build the center first to see how you like the whole process and if you'd like to continue with the rest of the speakers. Actually, I'd be inclined to jump in and do the front 2 speakers, but can TOTALLY understand wanting to start small. Anyway, you'll want to keep the sonic signature of your front three speakers as similar as possible, so the drivers used will make a huge impact on what you should build for the rest of your system.

In item "4", I've suggested going with a "kit". The specific reason for that has nothing to do with the box design/enclosure and EVERYTHING to do with the crossover design. EVERYTHING I've read, been told, heard, etc about crossovers has suggested that a degree in quantum physics and a PHD in Witchdoctorey are required to do this part with any degree of competence. Obviously, I exaggerate, but this part is supposed to be wickedly hard entailing elements that are part science, part art and part luck. Oh, and potentially expensive. If you decide to change one piece of the crossover, you might have change EVERYTHING in the crossover because of how everything interplays. This is the area that is currently stopping me from designing from the ground up. Now, if you're feeling frisky, I'd say go for it. I'd LOVE to see how it's done by a newbie. So for purely selfish reasons, I'd love to see you go for it; however, if you're more interested in a proven result, go with a kit.. which is what I did.

Best of luck.

JCD


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## FlashJim (May 6, 2006)

A table saw isn't needed. It's VERY nice to have, but it's not a must have. I just completed this with a circular saw.











Get a fullsize router of at least 1 1/2HP. You don't have to have an expensive one. A older used one with a plunge base would work great. If you want to buy new and buy just one, look at the Bosch 1617 kit or Porter Cable 895PK (the one I have). They give you both bases and enough HP to do most anything you want.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Good questions Jim...

I've been contemplating getting a router myself.... here's what I found on the units that FlashJim has recommended...

*Porter-Cable 895PK 2-1/4 HP Fixed Base, Plunge Base Kit with Height Adjuster*
List Price: $329.00
Amazon Price: $269.00 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping. 










Availability: In Stock. Ships from and sold by Amazon.com.

Special Shipping Information: This item normally requires a shipping charge, but is eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping today.

Mail-in Offer: Get a FREE Porter-Cable 342 Quarter Sheet Palm Grip Finishing Sander when you purchase this item.

Special Offer: Take $25 off your purchase of $199 or more of any items in our Tools & Hardware Store by using promotional code HI25SUMR at checkout.

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Final price $244 shipped and you get a free palm sander.

*>>> OR <<<*


*Bosch 1617EVSPK 2.25 Horsepower Electronic Variable Speed Plunge and Fixed Base Router Kit*
List Price: $410.00
Price: $219.00 & this item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping. 










Availability: In Stock. Ships from and sold by Amazon.com.

Special Shipping Information: This item normally requires a shipping charge, but is eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping today.

Special Offer: Take $25 off your purchase of $199 or more of any items in our Tools & Hardware Store by using promotional code HI25SUMR at checkout

Final price $194 shipped.






What kind of bit is used to cut holes? Or should I ask... what are the bits that most speaker building projects will use?


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## FlashJim (May 6, 2006)

I bought mine from Coastal about two years ago and they still have the same price ... $269 - $40 instant rebate. I think it was about $235 shipped. Plus you get the sander that Sonnie mentioned.

Coastal Tool deal

Without a doubt, spring for the Jasper Jig. I love it. You could make your own to save a little money, but why bother? I use a Woodcraft (cheap but good) straight 1/4" bit with the jig. You'll also need a good flushtrim bit and roundover bit set. Buy good quality bits as you need them instead of buying a mediocre set. Whiteside, CMT, Amana, etc. are good brands. Check out Holbren.com for the best prices on Whiteside as well as their good quality house brand.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Which do you think is the better router? Is the $40 savings worth it for the Bosch unit? The only thing I didn't like about it was those wooden handles... not sure if that's a biggy.


Somthing like this kit looks like all you'd need...










1/4" Straight
1/2" Straight
3/8" Radius Round Over
3/8" x 1/2" Rabbet
3/8" Radius Cove
45 degree Chamfer1/2" Flush Trim

Price: $77.00


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## khellandros66 (Jun 7, 2006)

My few questions are,

What type of speakers, like floorstanding or MTM, etc.

If it were me I would do the Dayton WTMW and TMWW and the Nat'Ps for the rears with either prebuilt wall mounting hardware or adding so extra way to properly couple them to stands.

As far as a sub goes you want it simple then I would suggest a pair of;

Sound Splinter RL-P 12in D2
O-Audio 500w RMS BASH with PEQ (you can easily and safely give a 2dB boost at 20Hz)

Build your own 1.0cu^ft Sealed Enclosures for each one

My $0.02

~Bob


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

If it is your first try at DIY and you do not have access to good design software and measurment equipment than your chances of designing an good sounding speaker are small.The crossover is the most critical part and by far the hardest to design.To do it right you need to be able to take accurate frequency measurments.You can use the best drivers available but if the crossover is not properly designed then you will not get the best out of them.
So you would probably be better off trying a design that has already been worked out.Here is some links to some excellent designs. http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/ http://www.zaphaudio.com/ http://www.rjbaudio.com/projects.html


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## FlashJim (May 6, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> Which do you think is the better router? Is the $40 savings worth it for the Bosch unit? The only thing I didn't like about it was those wooden handles... not sure if that's a biggy.


Get the Bosch. They have top notch tools and that router is ranked VERY high. The knobs aren't a big deal in the least. Most people consider it a plus just for asthetics. 

I have the Bosch Colt which is a 1hp palm router. I used it to flush trim all of the laminate, oak fillers on the top and the oak on the front of my sub. I used my Porter-Cable to roundover the edges.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Thanks Jim.... I'm gonna order it. 

Thanks Jim :scratch: ... for creating this thread. You made me spend money... :spend: (I wonder if that spending emoticon can be sped up... it's seems too slow to fit the situation at times).


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Granted, with unlimited funds or a continuing long term/major interest in woodworking, I'd probably get the Bosch or Porter Cable units. However, if neither category fits Az, why not get the Ryobi 2hp plunge router from Home Depot. Cost is only $99.

Also, the best place I've found for router bits was here.

I don't even have a router, but I'm thinking about getting the 25th anniversary edition.. 

JCD


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## FlashJim (May 6, 2006)

If budget is an issue (when isn't it?), seriously look at refurbished tools. Everyone I know in the woodworking world buys refurb when they can. The tools are most of the time still brand new. They aren't worn out tools that are rebuilt.

Bosch 1617 kit refurbished for $139.95 shipped free until 8/20 

This is the deal *I* would get if I was in the market.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Wow! That's an awesome deal. Yep, that's what I'd be plunking my money on too..

JCD


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## Exocer (Apr 19, 2006)

My first router was refurbished and still works extremely well. Ryobi 2hp plunge router. I can't recommend it though, no dust collection feature 

The WTMW design is a perfect match for the TMWW speakers. Modula MT's for surrounds. Try and stick with the same tweeter all around


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

COP Bosch was out of the $139 model so I went with the variable speed model we mentioned above and got it for $179 shipped... will be here Monday to collect some dust for a while.


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## FlashJim (May 6, 2006)

Exocer said:


> The WTMW design is a perfect match for the TMWW speakers. Modula MT's for surrounds.


That's what I have planned.  I have the drivers for the CC and mains so far.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I still need to get a bit set...

How about this one:












* 3 Cove (1/4", 3/8", 1/2"),
* 2 Flush Trim (3/8", 1/2")
* 3 Dovetail (14º-1/2", 5/8" & 9º-3/8")
* 1 45º Chamfer, 2 Roman Ogee (5/32", 1/4")
* 6 Round Over (1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 5/16", 3/8", 1/2")
* 5 Straight (1/4", 5/16", 3/8", 1/2", 3/4")
* 1 Rabbeting (3/8"), 3 Round Nose (1/4", 3/8", 1/2")
* 1 Bevel (25º), 1 Slot Cutter (1/4")
* 1 V-Groove (1/2"), 1 Panel Pilot (3/8")
* 1 Allen Wrench and 1 bearing to convert Round Over bit into Beading bit, and wood storage box. Available in 1/4" and 1/2" shank. FREE SHIPPING! 

MLCS 30 PIECE ROUTER BIT SETS

1/4" Shank Carbide Tipped Set
Wooden Storage Box Included
Item #6069 ....Sale $99.95


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

azjimmy... if you want us to move these posts about these routers over to another thread we can. Hopefully it's helping you determine some of the tools you can use though. But, we don't want to steal your thread if they are not pertinent to your original post.


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## FlashJim (May 6, 2006)

Maybe start a "Tools for DIY" thread.

Take a close look at the individual bits in a set. Will you honestly use them? I find that you get more bang for your buck if you buy sets like roundovers, rabbet, straights, etc. instead of the "master" type set. Buy the best quality you can for the highly used bits like the straight bits or roundovers. You can go lower quality for the lesser used profiles. The difference is the carbide edge. Higher quality bits have thicker and harder carbide. This will wear longer, especially in bit killing MDF.

With that said, my current roundover set was bought for $19 at Harbor Freight. Yep, the same roundovers I used on my sub.  

It's not the tools, it's how ya use 'em.


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## azjimmy (Jun 5, 2006)

Wow, you leave a thread for a day...:scratchchin:
Thanks for the replies. JDC and FlashJim, I have followed your projects with much interest since I came here back in June. It is because of them and BrianB’s work that I have gotten the bug. Thanks for the advice. I've been cruising the PE Projects page and numerous other sites for the last day or two, trying to digest all this



JDC, 
I was really impressed with your Usher 2.5 build. I am amazed with the quality for your first time. Nice skills. I was thinking about what you said about the drivers from my old center. My wife and I were hoping to maybe try a larger box and use the speakers and crossovers. I have hated my center for the last year or so. It’s plastic and sounds like it. The JBL Studio series is a great line, but the plastic center is lame. I figured that if it came out half decent, I’d move it to the bedroom and do a serious DIY for the main system (mains and center).


FlashJim, 
That sub you did with just a circular saw is nice. I am inspired. All the work I’ve done has been with only a circular saw as well, but my DIY audio rack was just squares. No large countersunk holes or rounded edges. Looks like a router is in order. I’ve always wanted one anyway so this will be the excuse. Thanks for the heads-up on the refurb. I never have a problem with refurb products. I think that sometimes they’re better than off the shelf items, since they are completely gone through, unlike production runs, which are only spot inspected.


F1-
I don’t have access to some of the tools you mentioned, but I do have WinISD and TrueRTA, a Behringer ECM8000 and of course REW. My intentions were to start with a proven design. I am a little too bull headed to just buy a complete kit and slap it together. I prefer to gather parts and work them together, even if it’s from a list and a blueprint. Eventually, I want to get to the point that I can experiment with my own design, but I am looking for a smaller start-up cost. Build tools first, measurement tools second.


Sonnie,
I’ve always liked spending money, especially when it’s someone else’s. :devil: I don’t mind the router discussion being included. It’s just part of the organic nature of threads. All of this info is helpful and also of use to the next newbie who comes along. I think a DIY tool thread is a great idea too. A place to share deals and ideas, as well as stuff made in the garage from yankee ingenuity.(My apiologies to all you "Down in Dixie") 
BTW, did you ever work out your new mains and center, or has that changed?


Khellandros,
I was thinking of doing something likehttp://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speakers/112-diy-software-2.html#post1604this. (MTMWW for the towers and MTMW for the center.) I like to push my self and stretch my skills. It might be a bit overkill for my room, but a little overkill never hurt anybody. The whole thing may change though as I read up more on the subject. I like the idea of the D’Appolito design, but I’m not sure if it will do well in my room. When I come to the actual build, I will probably ask for more advice on that.


Thanks everyone for all the info. Keep the tips and suggestions coming.
Jim


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2006)

I wish I could offer some helpful advice, but the truth is, I'm too **** lazy to do DIY projects. I did build my own screen for my FP, but that's the only DIY project I've done, in terms of home theater that is. :dontknow:


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

There are three places I would look at for a kit. 

Zalytron -- has several kits available in all costs and many different styles. I'd say their prices are the best; however, the guy you order from can be a little bit, hmm, gruff. Also, the web design is just atrocious and can't be ordered from as I recall. 

Madisound -- They have many of the "standard" kits out there as well. Much better customer service, wider range of products (compared to Zalytron) as well.

Parts Express -- The 300lb gorrilla of the group. HUGE selection of EVERYTHING related to this project of yours, although, not too much in the high end. Prices are "ok". You can get better prices from Zalytron or Madisound if they carry the same product. The only one of the three that carries Dayton drivers.

All of these places will sell kits that include only the drivers, crossover parts and schematics for enclosure and crossover. I'm not sure if you were looking for more "independence" or not, but I think the first project will be a good stretching of your abilities with one of these kits. It was for me at least.

Of course, all of the DIY projects in the pseudo public domain can be just as good or maybe even better. The kits from many of the above were designed by "real" professionals, such as D'Appolito himself. What does this mean? Don't really know, but there it is.. :dontknow: 

As for your center -- if you decided to upgrade past the plastic box you have, I'd suggest you build something as similar (size/shape/layout) as possible in MDF. The driver layout and crossover included are all tied to the enclosure size and design. I would expect that an upgrade to MDF should definitely improve the sound of your speaker. I think that would make for a great warm up to the more serious L/R speakers you eventually build.

As for the success of my first dabble in to DIY, trust me when I say that the end result would NOT have been as good had I not had a professional cabinent maker helping out. At the VERY least, there would have been several bad cuts, cutouts, unusual physics bending "right" angles, etc. :joke: 

JCD


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

azjimmy said:


> Sonnie,
> I’ve always liked spending money, especially when it’s someone else’s. :devil: I don’t mind the router discussion being included. It’s just part of the organic nature of threads. All of this info is helpful and also of use to the next newbie who comes along. I think a DIY tool thread is a great idea too. A place to share deals and ideas, as well as stuff made in the garage from yankee ingenuity.(My apiologies to all you "Down in Dixie")
> BTW, did you ever work out your new mains and center, or has that changed?


I think we may start up a DIY forum for all this stuff. We have a lot of threads on DIY already. 

I'm using the SVS SBS-01 system right now and really liking it. I'm on the fence line right now with doing anything else. The money I had set aside got swiped up by other things before I knew it. Hopefully some things will work out soon.


Good links Jacen!


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## azjimmy (Jun 5, 2006)

Thanks Jacen.
I have a few ideas about my CC redesign along the same lines as your suggestions. I think we'll try to tackle that first and if it comes out too rough, I have no problem relegating it to the bedroom. All our first time projects come out a bit rough and we always go back and tweak or change something from the lessons learned. We did out component rack and DVD rack twice. First time with inexpensive Melamine to test it out, then with maple plywood once we found out we weren't totaly incompetent.:sarcastic: I still have all my fingers so we didn't do too bad!
Thanks for the site suggestions. I agree that the Zalytron site is terrible to navigate. The Madisound site is great. I've got the Speaker Design Cookbook on the way. When we do the deed, I think we'll go with blueprints and drivers/crossover components. I really want to make the MDF-dust fly, and verneering looks like a cool challenge.
This whole thing has grown out of the speaker upgrade-itus I've had for a while now. I've listened to Paradigm, Axiom, JBL, Mirage, DefTec, the list goes on. Every time it always comes down to "I wonder how much better I could do?"
The down side is that you can't listen to them pre-build. Kinda scary, especially when your on a budget. 
I guess the first step is going to be to come up with an enclosure design for the old CC. Time to get the old hex-wrench out and start tinkering and see what I come up withonder:
Jim


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## azjimmy (Jun 5, 2006)

> I'm using the SVS SBS-01 system right now and really liking it. I'm on the fence line right now with doing anything else. The money I had set aside got swiped up by other things before I knew it. Hopefully some things will work out soon.


Sonnie,
Bummer, but from what I have heard the SBS-01 is a nice little system. Is that in your main room?
I've been waiting patiently to see what Tom and Ron come up with for the MTS system too. I was thinking of upgrading to that system when it came out, but the whole DIY thing keeps calling.

I agree that a whole DIY section would be a good idea. Maybe not just speakers, but cables, furniture, etc as well.

Jim


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

azjimmy said:


> Sonnie,
> Bummer, but from what I have heard the SBS-01 is a nice little system. Is that in your main room?
> I've been waiting patiently to see what Tom and Ron come up with for the MTS system too. I was thinking of upgrading to that system when it came out, but the whole DIY thing keeps calling.
> 
> ...


Yeah... the SBS-01 sounds big... and yes, it's in my dedicated HT room. I've been very pleased. I'm kinda looking forward to the MTS system as well. I'm probably gonna hold out doing anything until I get a chance to hear them on at least a trial basis. As much as these SBS-01's have impressed me in the HT setup, I can't help but to believe the MTS system will be very nice as well.

I'm pretty sure we'll get a DIY section going shortly (maybe even in the next 24 hours if I have time). We'll probably lump everything together initially and if we get heavy in more than two areas we can split it up later on. We can definitely have a sticky thread for recommended DIY tools and also a good discussion thread on the same. There might be a better way to break it all down... we'll just have to experiment and see what's all the members like the best.


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## azjimmy (Jun 5, 2006)

Thanks Sonnie,
This is just what I was thinking about...:T
Jim​


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