# Would like to move to a seperate processor



## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

Hello gang,
I presently have a Denon 4520 and I am in the process of building a new theater room. I told my wife the other night that I will be pulling all my equipment from our living room theater into the new room and she said, what about my system? She wants a system in her living room! The woman has been great with my home theater sickness. She has also become hooked herself and loves it as much as me.

So my thoughts are to leave the 4520 for the living room and set up some stuff I have sitting around for her and maybe go a new route and get some new separates for the new theater. What can I actually gain over the 4520 by going with a new separate processor? I have looked at numerous processors and the new XMC-1 from Emotiva looks to be a good unit. I know people have bad things to say about Emotive, but I have also heard good and I have an XPA-3 myself and seems to be fine to me. The only problem is that I tried to pre order the XMC 1 and I was placed on a list and was unable to order it. Does anyone know how long it is going to be until it is released or able to pre order? Any updated news on it? 

I know there are many other processors and would love to hear if anyone has any suggestions or what they are using. I would like to keep it under $3K and I don't want Audyssey. I don't even use it anymore on my 4520.

Thanks for any suggestions.


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## vidiot33 (Dec 12, 2013)

It's probably not what you want to hear, but I've gone from a receiver to separates and back to a receiver, and the only effect the separates had was to complicate my setup. I've been doing home theater for 30 years now, and in my personal opinion, separates are over rated. The Emotiva sounds like a good kit, but there were significant issues with their last processor, and this one has been plagued by delays. There also implementing HDMI 2.0, which could also bring issues. I love Emotiva amps, but I would wait for some reviews (pro and user) before jumping in...


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Before figuratively trashing the 4520, check out Sonnie and Sound and Vision's review.

Note this final comment by Sonnie:



> Summing It Up
> 
> In conclusion, I am thoroughly impressed with this unit. It has about all the features you could ask for in a receiver/processor and ample power to accommodate most any speaker system. *I initially intended on reviewing it and then selling it, but instead I have already sold my Onkyo 5508, XPA-3 amp and XPA-1 monoblocks. I keep thinking to myself that the 4520 seems to be a little on the pricey side, but if you consider what any other processor with the same features would cost you and then add the expense of amplification, the 4520 price actually sounds like a bargain.* I think the most surprising part of my experience with the 4520 has been its ability to drive my MartinLogan speakers effortlessly. I had almost given up on ever trying receiver power because I have always read and heard that the Prodigy’s pretty much needed at least 300 watts of good clean power to perform their best. I will have to disagree with the naysayers, as I find it hard to get any better than what it is right now with the 4520 the only power amp source in my system. Excellent job Denon!


 And check out Sound and Vision's five and seven channels driven bench tests on the 4520. In my opinion, very nice.

Yes, the XMC1 plus the XPA-5 is a head turner and the XMC-1 is suppose to have a copy of one of the finest room correction software installed but for our purposes, the 4520 is all we need and I love what XT32/SubEQ HT does with the acoustics in our room.

We're running a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs which easily hit full reference. Four Triax subwoofers would be a bit much for our needs

Why are you hating on Audyssey XT32?


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

With a budget of 3k I would hate to see you go to a high end AVR that has a lot of features that youll never use... That is my main complaint with high end AVR's... Many of them are not the right application for dedicated High end Home Theater imo . Obviously some prefer them . With separates your usually going to aviod alot of bells and whitles that you dont need ... and separate amps give you a much wider range of power to choose from...

If I had my choice it would probably be the EMOTIVA separates simply because I know that they stand behind there products 100%... I have the XPA 3 driving my #1 clients custom built HT speaker system and its been absolutely the right choice for that application... very impressed with them as a co. so far ....

That being said , what kind of speaker system will you be driving ??


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies guys. I will be running a full JTR 212HT's with 4 JTR single slanted 8's. I also have 2 PSA Triax subs. I actually thought about keeping the 4520 and just using my XPA-3 to power the front stage and call it a system. But as of late it seems that everyone is going to balanced separates. I also don't get the prices? I mean what is the deal with the 8801 costing almost twice of the 4520? I have heard from a guy that has owned both and told me there is no sound advantage to the 8801. I mean with a good amp your looking at like 6K for the same thing as the 4520. My JTR's are efficient enough that the 4520 can run the whole set but I was looking to add something new to my rack.


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

RTS100x5 said:


> With a budget of 3k I would hate to see you go to a high end AVR that has a lot of features that youll never use... That is my main complaint with high end AVR's... Many of them are not the right application for dedicated High end Home Theater imo . Obviously some prefer them . With separates your usually going to aviod alot of bells and whitles that you dont need ... and separate amps give you a much wider range of power to choose from...
> 
> If I had my choice it would probably be the EMOTIVA separates simply because I know that they stand behind there products 100%... I have the XPA 3 driving my #1 clients custom built HT speaker system and its been absolutely the right choice for that application... very impressed with them as a co. so far ....
> 
> That being said , what kind of speaker system will you be driving ??


I was actually looking at the Outlaw 975 with a good Outlaw 7000 series amp. Looking at around $2500 for something like that. I am looking for the best possible sound and easiest set up for HT, I don't care about music. I really love the XMC1. I am willing to give it a gamble. Being delayed says they are making it right! 

Sorry guys, for some reason my multi quote is set to off and I have to answer each post individually. Not ignoring anybody's post.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Reefdvr27 said:


> But as of late it seems that everyone is going to balanced separates


I can assure you that is not the case, in the last 8 years the quality of the mid to upper end receivers that have pre outs can deliver the same quality of sound as a pre/pro. In many cases even better due to auto room correction like Audyessey. You won't gain anything by replacing you Denon with a pre pro and will actually loose features.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

Denon AVR-X4000 + Emotiva XPA-5

Well-equipped (incl. Audyssey MultEQ XT32 w/ Sub EQ HT), lots of power.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

eljay said:


> Denon AVR-X4000 + Emotiva XPA-5
> 
> Well-equipped (incl. Audyssey MultEQ XT32 w/ Sub EQ HT), lots of power.


He already has the 4520 so the x4000 would be a step backwards


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> He already has the 4520 so the x4000 would be a step backwards


He won't be using the 4520 in his new set-up, and he's looking for alternatives. This is an alternative.

That said, I missed the part where he said he doesn't want Audyssey. That rules out the X4000 or another 4520.


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> I can assure you that is not the case, in the last 8 years the quality of the mid to upper end receivers that have pre outs can deliver the same quality of sound as a pre/pro. In many cases even better due to auto room correction like Audyessey. You won't gain anything by replacing you Denon with a pre pro and will actually loose features.


I agree. I actually love my 4520. The new XMC 1 is tempting, just alone with Dirac


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Curious as to why not Audyssey?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Without any reviews of an actual XMC1 I would be very hesitant. The previous emotiva's had lots of issues.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

The problem I see with the Emotiva separates is no Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and Sub EQ HT. That's a pretty big hit, really no upside. 

You might consider keeping the 4520 in the "main" system and putting an X4000 in the wife's room. It has all the same core technology as the 4520 with just under 1dB less power on a per-channel basis. 

Oh, and the difference between the XPA-5 and the 4520 is 1.2dB power on a per-channel basis. You'd need the XPR-5 to do a 3dB difference. 

There's nothing to be gained from balanced interconnects if all your gear is located in the same rack.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

RTS100x5 said:


> With a budget of 3k I would hate to see you go to a high end AVR that has a lot of features that youll never use...


The good news, you can ignore all these features and you won't be harmed. The 4520 is approximately $2k. With that in mind, we purchased the 4520 for it's amplifier section, XT32/SubEQ HT and it's switching capabilities and nothing else. I was quite happy purchasing the 4520 with all it's extra features that we won't use, just to have the Pre-Pro and amplifier in a single box; simplicity.

The Pre-Pro in the 4520 is suppose to be a scaled down version of the AV8801 and the amplifier section is as good as the McIntosh amplifiers. Just saying, based on research, in short, the 4520 is a flagship AVR, well worth owning......even if just for it's combined Pre-Pro, amplifier and room correction software.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Reefdvr27 said:


> .....but I was looking to add something new to my rack.


There's the problem, you're collecting.

...

In my infinite ignorance, for Home Theater purposes, assuming enough speaker channels, based on Sound and Vision bench test data, the 4520 is about as good as it gets and upgrading from the 4520, it just gets more expensive. We have a 3,300^3 listening venue and +/-0dB MVC, reference level sound is not a challenge. The top of the amplifier doesn't get more than warm to the hand as it never gets hot to the touch.

(and if I ever cash a big winning lottery ticket.......just for giggles, I might upgrade the speakers but in truth, I'm tickled with our speaker subwoofer system)

Again, in my infinite ignorance, our current matching universal Blu-ray player, coupled with our speaker/subwoofer system and the 4520, we have the perfect Home Theater system and to buy more gear, I'd be doing so, just to spend money.

(yes, in it's own way, it's a bit depressing to realize, no new gear. the thrill of the hunt is gone. life's purpose has been achieved. now? it's the electric reclining easy chair/love seat combo, the wife, time to relax with lots of sports and Blu-ray movies to entertain us)


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

Reefdvr27 said:


> I was actually looking at the Outlaw 975 with a good Outlaw 7000 series amp. Looking at around $2500 for something like that. I am looking for the best possible sound and easiest set up for HT, I don't care about music. I really love the XMC1. I am willing to give it a gamble. Being delayed says they are making it right!
> 
> Sorry guys, for some reason my multi quote is set to off and I have to answer each post individually. Not ignoring anybody's post.


I agree, give the XMC 1 a go... it wont take long to decide if it's everything they say it is... and they should pay for return shipping if your disatisfied

Yes the 8801 is a great example of an AVR that's goes more towards a system design for multiple zones than dedicated HT ....


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Without any reviews of an actual XMC1 I would be very hesitant. The previous emotiva's had lots of issues.


Onkyo has a boat load of issues and Ive been told not to bring it up.... just saying ... with all due respect :R


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

Some guys I talk to have quit using Audyssey so I have experimented myself and found that with music I like it off and with HT I am using Bypass L&R


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> There's the problem, you're collecting.
> 
> ...


No I would not say I am collecting. I am building a new room and I want to build it and be done with it and I also want some new equipment to go along with the new room. Once I get everything set up, I want to be done and I am not joking. I just want to be able to sit back relax and enjoy the room and movies. I am just getting tired of the constant researching and upgrading. I know there are people that never sit down and enjoy their theater, they are constantly in the rack fooling around and changing stuff month after month. I have been guilty of this in the past, but I have pretty much been set for the last year now with nothing new other than my 2 new Triaxes that finally were delivered last fall. 

I really like the Emotiva XMC 1. It says that it is future proofed and will be completely upgraded and not to mention it comes with Dirac. Also I like the fact that I could get a 7 channel amp and put 200+ watts to each speaker. I would like more headroom and I also think that the extra power will bring my speakers to life. The 4520 does indeed have a good amp(s), but I would prefer to have some extra power. 

I have thought about many things. I have thought that maybe I would buy a new 7 channel amp and run the 4520 as a pre amp. I have read a few critics reviews that the 4520 does lack in HT sound compared to other units in its class, so I would like to find another unit and give it a shot and see if there is something with more zing. I have also thought that maybe I would do the same and go with the Anthem 510 and run that as a pre amp. I believe the 510 has the same guts as the 710, but if I ran it as a pre amp, the 710 would not be nessesary. Now I am looking hard at the new XMC 1 or the Outlaw 975. As mentioned I don't need the bells and whistles, I want the best sounding unit as I can get. Sound is the key, they rest is useless to me. I want to be as plug and play as I can. I want to set it and forget it.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Reefdvr27 said:


> I have read a few critics reviews that the 4520 does lack in HT sound compared to other units in its class,...


Critics are a dime a dozen as are opinions. How do you like how the 4520 sounds? I've not read a negative review of the 4520 and bench tests show the amplifier section in the 4520 is the equal to a McIntosh amplifier. I understand wanting headroom but how much headroom above reference does one need?

Using the published sensitivity of our front three of 100dB, and to keep critics happy, backing the sensitivity of the speakers back to 92dB, we need 32w to hit reference at 1m and that's for a single speaker. When one adds the synergistic total of our five speakers into the equation, reference is easily obtained using no more than half of the output capability of the amplifier section of the 4520. As pointed out by others, the difference between the output of the 4520 and the Emotiva XPA-5, at the top end, is +1.5dB.

You have two Triax subs and we have two Rythmik FV15HPs and in our 3,300^3 room with normal side room openings, at +/-0dB MVC, full on continuous reference is not a problem. In my opinion, when it's louder than one feels comfortable listening to and the amplifier section isn't being challenged, then enough has been achieved. The point, just saying, if that's the direction you wish to go, do so but realize, for what you're kicking to the curb, you're not getting that much bang for the buck. In my opinion, based on reviews and personal experience, the 4520CI is that good of an AVR. That's not to say the XMC-1 plus complimentary Emotiva amplifiers aren't a head turner and if that's where you want to go and the budget is there, go for it.

Personally, I don't think you're going be happy unless you have the Emotiva processor and amplifier because this Home Theater Palace you're putting together is your flagship creation and a flagship creation is deserving of complimentary gear. Our gear hangs out in a Home Theater in our living room and we don't need Home Theater Palace level gear. You're creating a show piece and that has different expectations of the creator over some lug like me.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Reefdvr27 said:


> Some guys I talk to have quit using Audyssey so I have experimented myself and found that with music I like it off and with HT I am using Bypass L&R


You need to experience XT32 with SubEQ HT with a Pro calibration. Very different, and very, very good.



BeeMan458 said:


> Critics are a dime a dozen as are opinions. How do you like how the 4520 sounds? I've not read a negative review of the 4520 and bench tests show the amplifier section in the 4520 is the equal to a McIntosh amplifier. I understand wanting headroom but how much headroom above reference does one need?
> 
> Using the published sensitivity of our front three of 100dB, and to keep critics happy, backing the sensitivity of the speakers back to 92dB, we need 32w to hit reference at 1m and that's for a single speaker. When one adds the synergistic total of our five speakers into the equation, reference is easily obtained using no more than half of the output capability of the amplifier section of the 4520. As pointed out by others, the difference between the output of the 4520 and the Emotiva XPA-5, at the top end, is +1.5dB.
> 
> You have two Triax subs and we have two Rythmik FV15HPs and in our 3,300^3 room with normal side room openings, at +/-0dB MVC, full on continuous reference is not a problem. In my opinion, when it's louder than one feels comfortable listening to and the amplifier section isn't being challenged, then enough has been achieved. The point, just saying, if that's the direction you wish to go, do so but realize, for what you're kicking to the curb, you're not getting that much bang for the buck. In my opinion, based on reviews and personal experience, the 4520CI is that good of an AVR. That's not to say the XMC-1 plus complimentary Emotiva amplifiers aren't a head turner and if that's where you want to go and the budget is there, go for it.


Agreed fully with the above. Just adding my personal comment: if I had unlimited $$$ that I was required to spend today, my personal choice would be the 4520CI, barefoot. If I were one of those guys that keeps gear in a rack to show off (in a separate room where cooling fan noise didn't matter), then I'd be adding some big and flashy monoblock power amps, but I'd also probably have to add a speaker processor for each so they didn't accidentally destroy my speakers and power sequencing so I didn't blow a breaker just turning the system on. It would be a huge rack-full of gear, and wouldn't sound any better than the barefoot 4520. Just for show, the audio equivalent of a flashy custom car that can still only go speed limit +10 without getting in trouble. But I'm not that guy. My stuff is all hidden from view, nobody visiting knows what gear I have unless I tell them. They usually ask, but I don't say anything unless they do.

The facts remain: audible difference in amp/AVR sound is debatable, the difference made with good system EQ is audible to everyone. You only get 3dB when you double power, assuming speakers can handle it, and only for a few seconds if they can't. And, listening at "reference" is listening pretty loud. If you can do reference with your AVR, with high resolution EQ, then the next improvements should be to speakers and acoustics. Unless, of course, someone wants to build a glitz-rack.

I recently did a cal for a client with a "glitz rack" in his HT. Full 7' high rack with tons of power amp. The cooling fans made such a din that I had to comment. He said he keeps the sub amps off when listening at low volume in the evening to keep the noise down. So much for separates.


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

Just to put it out there, I am not upgrading for looks, I would be upgrading or changing amps for pure sound. This has nothing do with looks or flash, I don't know how that got started. Nobody is going to be in my room but my wife and my kids, so nobody will see my stuff but me me. Also my room is not going to be that fancy. It originally was, but I cannot find a builder to do what I want, so I am just refinishing a room. It will still be nice, but certainly not one of these gorgeous theater builds. Down the road maybe. 

I think the 4520 sounds ok, I have never really been blown away with it, I mean everybody seems be in agreement that the 4520 is the best sounding AVR on the market? I think that is pretty scary if that is the truth. I can just say now that I believe the 4520 is going to strain with the the full weight of 7 speakers at reference or above reference. I have sent it into protect mode a few times in just 2 channel mode. I know one thing, if I were to keep it, it would have to serve as a pre amp. That would be fine, but I would be a bit nervous about amp noise with the unbalanced cables.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Reefdvr27 said:


> Just to put it out there, I am not upgrading for looks, I would be upgrading or changing amps for pure sound. This has nothing do with looks or flash, I don't know how that got started.


I posted the comment in a response comment to you, when I posted in reply:

"Personally, I don't think you're going be happy unless you have the Emotiva processor and amplifier because this Home Theater Palace you're putting together is your flagship creation and a flagship creation is deserving of complimentary gear. Our gear hangs out in a Home Theater in our living room and we don't need Home Theater Palace level gear. You're creating a show piece and that has different expectations of the creator over some lug like me."

My apologies if my comment created troubles and if you wish for me to amend any of my comments, PM me and I'll be happy to edit them to your satisfaction.



Reefdvr27 said:


> I can just say now that I believe the 4520 is going to strain with the the full weight of 7 speakers at reference or above reference. I have sent it into protect mode a few times in just 2 channel mode.


Based on your above, if playing at reference level and you're going into protect mode, something is wrong with the receiver's amplifier section.

Sound and Vision

"Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 108.8 watts
1% distortion at 121.7 watts"

"This graph shows that the AVR-4520CI’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 172.6 watts and 1% distortion at 190.7 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 237.5 watts and 1% distortion at 287.1 watts."

That's a lot of watts being driven into protection mode. Did you give Denon customer service a call to see if they can say what's what with the protection mode? In my opinion, I encourage everybody to buy what ever makes them feel all warm and fuzzy at night and if that's an Emotiva Pre-Pro and amplifier setup, that's the way you should go.


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> I did in a response comment to you when I posted in reply: "Personally, I don't think you're going be happy unless you have the Emotiva processor and amplifier because this Home Theater Palace you're putting together is your flagship creation and a flagship creation is deserving of complimentary gear. Our gear hangs out in a Home Theater in our living room and we don't need Home Theater Palace level gear. You're creating a show piece and that has different expectations of the creator over some lug like me." My apologies if my comment created troubles and if you wish for me to amend any of my comments, PM me and I'll be happy to edit them to your satisfaction. Based on your above, if playing at reference level and you're going into protect mode, something is wrong with the receiver's amplifier section. Sound and Vision "Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 108.8 watts 1% distortion at 121.7 watts" "This graph shows that the AVR-4520CI’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 172.6 watts and 1% distortion at 190.7 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 237.5 watts and 1% distortion at 287.1 watts." That's a lot of watts being driven into protection mode. Did you give Denon customer service a call to see if they can say what's what with the protection mode?


Get out of here, I was just wondering where the looks were coming from. No harm, I hope it it did not come off wrong.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Reefdvr27 said:


> Get out of here, I was just wondering where the looks were coming from. No harm, I hope it it did not come off wrong.


Not at all. Your comment read as if my comment was out of line. Just making sure I didn't accidentally step on toes. Everybody has their sensitivities and OTOH, everybody else is responsible for any toes they step on. Being this way makes for a harmonious forum. As long as you're good, I'm good and now you know who's talking smack.

...


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Reefdvr27 said:


> I can just say now that I believe the 4520 is going to strain with the the full weight of 7 speakers at reference or above reference. I have sent it into protect mode a few times in just 2 channel mode. I know one thing, if I were to keep it, it would have to serve as a pre amp. That would be fine, but I would be a bit nervous about amp noise with the unbalanced cables.


Ok, well, in that case I understand your interest in doing more than a 4520. The JRT's average 4 ohms, so they do spend some time below that (can't find a plot), which explains your shutdown above reference. They are 101dB/w/m speakers, though, so without recalling your room size, you're paying pretty loudly to get that to happen. They'll hit reference with flea-power, so you must have a very large room or play them really hot.

If you're nervous about unbalanced cables, then cave to your nerves, and balance away. Having worked with balanced and unbalanced for decades, and designed the actual interfaces, I'm not as nervous, so we're not in the same world.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> Based on your above, if playing at reference level and you're going into protect mode, something is wrong with the receiver's amplifier section.
> 
> Sound and Vision
> 
> ...


Could be something wrong with the AVR, but the JTRs average 4 ohms, so they may dip as low as 1 (I need to see that curve). Still, that's a LOT of SPL! Even at 100W at 10', that's 116dB SPL from the front 3! 

It needs to be pointed out that at no time in any soundtrack are all channels driven equally. It's an interesting test, but way out of reality.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> and bench tests show the amplifier section in the 4520 is the equal to a McIntosh amplifier.


Which McIntosh amplifier?
Links please.


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

Reefdvr27 said:


> The only problem is that I tried to pre order the XMC 1 and I was placed on a list and was unable to order it. Does anyone know how long it is going to be until it is released or able to pre order?


There have been people on the XMC-1 pre-order list since 2008. During those 6 years, its release has remained right around the corner. It will be released when it is released. 

Personally, I would hold off buying anything for the next few months, at least until CEDIA in September. Big changes coming to consumer audio.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

gazoink said:


> Could be something wrong with the AVR, but the JTRs average 4 ohms, so they may dip as low as 1 (I need to see that curve). Still, that's a LOT of SPL! Even at 100W at 10', that's 116dB SPL from the front 3!


Is it possible the AVR hasn't been set to 4ohm? Internally, one can set the AVR output to 8, 6 or 4 ohm.

Reefdvr27, I have to ask, have you set the 4520's internal setting to 4ohm?


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Apparently it is very difficult to bring a flagship processor to market.
I wouldn't choose be in the first wave to buy next year's new model from any of the major manufacturers that are just tweaking a established design much less be a beta tester for a new design.
But I am conservative when it comes to that kind of stuff, I just want my home appliances to work per the manual and be trouble free.
While I think an AVR is the best way to go I certainly don't think separates is a bad choice. 
In your case you are experienced and you want to try separates.
If you have the coin and are willing to put up with the initial debugging on the Emotivia that's all that really needs to be considered.
If you don't get what you want you probably won't be happy happy happy.


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

gazoink said:


> Could be something wrong with the AVR, but the JTRs average 4 ohms, so they may dip as low as 1 (I need to see that curve). Still, that's a LOT of SPL! Even at 100W at 10', that's 116dB SPL from the front 3! It needs to be pointed out that at no time in any soundtrack are all channels driven equally. It's an interesting test, but way out of reality.


 I was pushing it good, way more than most humans can take. Not to mention the subs 7db hot


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> Is it possible the AVR hasn't been set to 4ohm? Internally, one can set the AVR output to 8, 6 or 4 ohm. Reefdvr27, I have to ask, have you set the 4520's internal setting to 4ohm?


Set to 4 ohm. Now from what I was told an article was published at Audiohaulics saying you should set your AVR at 8ohms regardless of 4, 6 or 8 ohm speakers.


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

sdurani said:


> There have been people on the XMC-1 pre-order list since 2008. During those 6 years, its release has remained right around the corner. It will be released when it is released.
> 
> Personally, I would hold off buying anything for the next few months, at least until CEDIA in September. Big changes coming to consumer audio.


The XMC-1 was announced in 2008? I think it is safe to say there is probably not 1 person left on the list from 2008.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Reefdvr27 said:


> set to 4 ohm. Now from what I was told an article was published at Audiohaulics saying you should set your AVR at 8ohms regardless of 4, 6 or 8 ohm speakers.


We're set to 8ohm but we have 8ohm speakers.

Okay, next obvious question, how is the sound quality if set to 8ohm?

FWIW, I found this review but no bench tests.

As to Emotiva, just got off the phone with sales and no release date for the XMC-1. I asked about any CES release and basically, when the XMC-1 comes into the warehouse, they're simply going start shipping pre-order sales as opposed to having some sort of enigmatic CES release. The XMC-1 will have a thirty day trial period. Another question answered, they don't have a seven channel XPA-7 in the pipeline. They do know that people want a seven channel amplifier but on this point, nada.

I think the above is a deciding factor. It could be December, it could be another year, nobody at Emotiva is saying. It's beginning to read like the 4520CI is the happening AVR/Pre-Pro and as you suggested, use the 4520 as the Pre-Pro and connect to amplifiers by Emotiva until the XMC-1 is released.


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> We're set to 8ohm but we have 8ohm speakers.
> 
> Okay, next obvious question, how is the sound quality if set to 8ohm?


 I just run it in the 4Ω. I messed around and found no audible differences with either.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Reefdvr27 said:


> I just run it in the 4Ω. I messed around and found no audible differences with either.


What is it about the sound quality of your 4520 that you're not liking? I'm sure there's something grabbing your attention. In our case, when listening to a movie with a quality sound track, we're in heaven and will finish the movie in stunned silence. Our misgiving, the system is so good, it exposes or reveals poor quality sound tracks for what they are, poor quality sound tracks.

(i'm just asking as I support your decision to go with the XMC-1 (separates) so you're future proof)

Quality sound tracks, in our opinion, make a huge sound quality difference and we find when presented with poor quality sound tracks, we immediately experience disappointment but we blame the sound track not the system.


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

Reefdvr27 said:


> I just run it in the 4Ω. I messed around and found no audible differences with either.



You need amps for your system


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Reefdvr27 said:


> set to 4 ohm. Now from what I was told an article was published at Audiohaulics saying you should set your AVR at 8ohms regardless of 4, 6 or 8 ohm speakers.


If you could find the article...because that makes no sense. The 4520 manual even tells you how to set it.


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

Setting the receiver to 4 ohms setting tells the receiver that you are driving a hard load so it will cut the amount of power it outputs to the speakers earlier.

Think of it like a car. It stops you from going faster like a govenor. 

So depending on the receiver you might have 120 watts at 8 ohms but it won't let you have more than 75 watts no mater how much you turn it up. 

I'll look for the explanation they gave


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

Here is a better explanation 
I gave the layman's version 

http://www.audioholics.com/frequent...hm-speakers-to-an-8-ohm-receiver-or-amplifier


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

The Audioholics article explains the reason for the thermal shutdown issue.


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## magic (May 23, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> The Audioholics article explains the reason for the thermal shutdown issue.


That's why I recommend that he should get a amp/ amps


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

gazoink said:


> If you could find the article...because that makes no sense. The 4520 manual even tells you how to set it.


Here is a clip from the article. Thanks for bringing that up Magic. 



> NOTE: Some Receivers have an impedance selector switch. In most cases we recommend the 8-ohm or more setting. The manufacturer puts them there for UL/CSA approvals as well as easing consumer concerns about driving low impedance loads. These switches step down voltage feed to the power sections which will limit dynamics and overall fidelity. Keep the switch set for 8 ohms regardless of the impedance of your speakers and ensure proper ventilation of the Receiver.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Reefdvr27 said:


> Here is a clip from the article. Thanks for bringing that up Magic.


Seeing as how not even Emotiva will break loose with when the XMC-1 is going be distributed, can you buy some 8ohm speakers?

Even Chase or Chane is out as I was thinking some SHO-10s.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Ok, that explains the confusion. Audioholics is recommending the 8 ohm setting regardless of load because setting it otherwise "will limit dynamics and overall fidelity". This is typical of Audioholics. They make a sweeping statement like that without substantiation, testing, or really any proof what so ever. 

"Dynamics" and "fidelity" are nebulous terms for which the review provides no scale with which to quantify them. They provide no test data at all, no listening tests, nothing. It's an opinion based on something etherial that's not shared with readers.

There are no numbers you can put on "fidelity". "Dynamics" is different. That could mean the total dynamic range, or the degree to which some active element changes the dynamic range. The former would be defined as the range in dB from the onset of distortion to the noise floor, the latter would be defined as a change by an active compression element (not found in a basic power amp). 

But the reality is quite different. Looking at *AVR-4520 test data* we find that driving an 8 ohm load it hits .1% at 172.6 watts, and hits the same .1% driving a 4 ohm load at 237.5 watts. That shows that the amp is not a constant voltage device, but rather scales its output voltage downward _slightly_ when driving a heavier load. The actual output voltage at the .1% level for 8 ohms would be 37.2Vrms, for the same distortion at 4 ohms it would be 30.8Vrms. This shows the action of the impedance switch, but it does not show a reduction in dynamics. It does deliver more power to a 4 ohm load, by 1.4dB. If the amp maintained a constant maximum output voltage regardless of load it could drive 346 watts into 4 ohms, a difference of 3dB. 

But that's _not limiting dynamics_, and here's why: it doesn't take into account the efficiency of the load! In the case of our OP, he has 101dB/w/m speakers, which frankly is unusually high. The average for 8 ohm speakers isn't a figure I have in my head, but the mid to high 80s seems about right. Assuming 86dB/w/m, compairing the OP's speakers, the difference in speaker efficiency alone is 15dB. If we now take away the 1.5dB caused by the lowered maximum output of the amp driving 4 ohms, we have a 13.5dB difference. The rule of thumb: 10dB is an apparent doubling or halving of volume. 13.5dB is a huge and obvious difference, and THAT would change the dynamics, not a 1.5dB difference in amp output capability caused by a slight change in supply voltage. 

Dynamics, and "fidelity" are terms that can really only apply to the total system. 

I'm not going to bore anyone with trying to figure out what a limit to overall fidelity means, because again, it's a sweeping statement without one shred of backup. 

What I will say is that reducing an amp's maximum output power by over 100 watts to allow for a lower Z load, and reducing internal dissipation would be a very good idea for an AVR with 7 channels of power amp. Assuming that the front 3 are running close to max, that's a lot of extra heat that won't have to be dissipated. And yes, that's the advantage to separates. 

But it's 1.5dB less at the amp, and the speakers are highly efficient. It's NOT a dynamics or fidelity reduction, but clearly our OP likes it loud...really loud...so he needs separates. Probably should go for either stereo amps or mono blocks at whatever power/$$ he can manage. Those will be huge amps with large heat sinks or smaller amps with cooling fans.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

"Ok, that explains the confusion."

Being a layperson, I can only post the test results but I'm ignorant, so therefore, I can't argue with Audioholic's pronouncements.

My guess, the thermal limit switch isn't working within specifications as I'm sure Reefdvr has excellent ventilation. We have terrible ventilation and at full on 8ohm reference level play, after an hour or two of playback, the top or our unit gets hand warm and is not uncomfortable to touch; very warm but not hot.

The entertainment cabinet enclosure does not meet side/top/back clearance specifications but I added six two inch ventilation holes in the back of the enclosure and for flow through ventilation, leave the front door open a couple of inches during play.

if building a Home Theater, with the walls open, from scratch, one might as well go the Full Monte, put a bunch of breakers into the service box and wire the room with independent 20A or 30A service and buy some big Emotiva amplifiers to match the capabilities of the JTR speakers. If the budget is there, what the hey, might as well enjoy the project and the finished outcome.

Our Epic CF-3s/RC-64 II are very capable in what they can handle and output but they're not JTRs. Our system is easily a reference capable system but IMO, reference is too loud so I dial the MVC back to -17.5dB and jack up the two subs +10dB and the CC (dialogue channel) +7dB and both the wife and I are happy with the results.

The point, with a JTR system, bolstered by a pair of Triax subwoofers, enough has been achieved with the output capability of the 4520 set to 4ohm but as pointed out, the love is in the direction of separates. Maybe an Emotiva XPR-5 and a XPR-2 coupled to the Pre-Outs of the 4520 until the XMC-1 comes in?


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> "Ok, that explains the confusion."
> 
> Being a layperson, I can only post the test results but I'm ignorant, so therefore, I can't argue with Audioholic's pronouncements.


 Whoa, you're not ignorant! Even Audioholics can't argue their pronouncements! The problem is _there were no test results._


BeeMan458 said:


> My guess, the thermal limit switch isn't working within specifications as I'm sure Reefdvr has excellent ventilation. We have terrible ventilation and at full on 8ohm reference level play, after an hour or two of playback, the top or our unit gets hand warm and is not uncomfortable to touch; very warm but not hot.
> 
> The entertainment cabinet enclosure does not meet side/top/back clearance specifications but I added six two inch ventilation holes in the back of the enclosure and for flow through ventilation, leave the front door open a couple of inches during play.


Good comments re: ventilation. I ran into someone who tried to drive a distributed system of 7 pairs of speakers, and that presented a 6 ohm load, but was lossy. Every mid-market AVR he tried shut down. It was not actively vented, but had average convection, reasonable space around it. We solved it with distributed amplification (moved the heat away from the AVR).


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

I am on the list now for the new Emotiva XMC 1. If i would have know I would not have had to commit to anything dollar wise, I would have gotten on that list months ago. Now I am at the back on of the list. Production is starting soon, so I am just going to wait it out till at least August. I really cannot imagine it is going to take that long to fulfill pre orders. I mean how many pre orders can they have? I am sure it is allot, but I really don't see it taking till December. It is not a cheap unit, so I just cannot see that big of a list or maybe I am wrong? Supposedly this product is coming out of the new plant in Tennessee, another thing that I admire about this unit is it is going to be made right here!!!! So I imagine it is up to date and production should move fast. As I said I will wait till August and in the mean time I will use the 4520 and see what comes up next.


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> if building a Home Theater, with the walls open, from scratch, one might as well go the Full Monte, put a bunch of breakers into the service box and wire the room with independent 20A or 30A service and buy some big Emotiva amplifiers to match the capabilities of the JTR speakers. If the budget is there, what the hey, might as well enjoy the project and the finished outcome.


I have already explained to the electrician that I want the electrical service beefed up. So it will be 20 amp.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

gazoink said:


> Whoa, you're not ignorant!


There's no shame in being an ignorant as all it means, is lacking the facts. You and others are so well educated on these matters that the best I'll claim to being is that of an incompetent old fool. And that's posted in a positive way.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Reefdvr27 said:


> I am on the list now for the new Emotiva XMC 1.


Congratulations on putting your name on the list. I do have to admit, that despite having a 4520 which I'm personally tickled with, without a doubt, the XMC-1 is a head turner.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Reefdvr27 said:


> I have already explained to the electrician that I want the electrical service beefed up. So it will be 20 amp.


If someone wanted to use 7 XPR-1 amps they'd need 7 20A circuits installed, one for each amp, with 20A connectors. 

This system will, of course, attempt to play a few peaks above the threshold of pain just before blowing the speakers.


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## rawsawhd (Apr 10, 2014)

Reefdvr27 said:


> I am on the list now for the new Emotiva XMC 1. If i would have know I would not have had to commit to anything dollar wise, I would have gotten on that list months ago. Now I am at the back on of the list. Production is starting soon, so I am just going to wait it out till at least August. I really cannot imagine it is going to take that long to fulfill pre orders. I mean how many pre orders can they have? I am sure it is allot, but I really don't see it taking till December. It is not a cheap unit, so I just cannot see that big of a list or maybe I am wrong? Supposedly this product is coming out of the new plant in Tennessee, another thing that I admire about this unit is it is going to be made right here!!!! So I imagine it is up to date and production should move fast. As I said I will wait till August and in the mean time I will use the 4520 and see what comes up next.


Here's an option and the route I took. Get the UMC200 for now, this will qualify you 25% off your next processor for life. Then get the XMC1 for $1500 and sell the old one with transferable warranty for a couple of hundred bucks... You get to try out some gear, and won't really be out any money..


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## Reefdvr27 (Aug 1, 2012)

rawsawhd said:


> Here's an option and the route I took. Get the UMC200 for now, this will qualify you 25% off your next processor for life. Then get the XMC1 for $1500 and sell the old one with transferable warranty for a couple of hundred bucks... You get to try out some gear, and won't really be out any money..


Thanks, I had actually thought about that same scenario. I will see where I am at when I am done my room next month. Maybe by then I will have an ETA of the XMC 1 or I may just go a different direction. I am watching all the Classys as well. Most stuff for sale is brand new anyway from the guys changing equipment every 3 months.


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