# Help with imaging.PLEASE!!!



## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Hey guys i need suggestions...
I cant seem to get satisfaction with my fronts(klipsch rf-3II's) in my new basement theater room.
Ill try to list all the info that i can
My room is 22x22x8(i know the dreaded square) but in the room is a 4x8 bathroom in the left rear corner.the right front has a door that opens into a little under the stairs room and the left front has a 5 foot openening that leads upstairs.
so my front wall is actually about 13 feet wide ,so i set my tv in the center of this wall,av rack to the right of tv,then speakers.i have the speakers about 10 feet apart and my listening position is about 8.5 from front wall(this was changed when i read about the 38% rule)and made huge differences as far a bass response.ive actually after about 2 months got a very flat bass response.
My problem now is i cant get a wide enough sweet spot from the fronts,sounds great only if you sit in the center of the sofa.sit left and the left speaker is too dominate,sit right.ditto.
Ihave the yamaha rx-v1800 receiver and have run the ypao eq software as well as manually set the db levels with meter and test tones.
i also have added acoustic panels at first reflection points.
I worry that my problem is that the right front is about 2 foot closer to the side wall than the left front,due to the opening leading up the stairs.as i dont know how i can overcome this other than building a false wall,which i really cant get that indepth just yet.
I notice that when i run test tones with the mic at the center position to get 75 db on both fronts,then move mic to the left or right position i get about 72 db.
i have tried toeing in the fronts but that doesnt help.
with the first reflection panels i hoped that the ypao would combat this but still no luck,i have not tried playing with the distance setting in the receiver setup yet ,other than entering the actual distance but maybe fooling the timing by showing the left speaker further away might help?
Anyway my setup is...
Yamaha rx-v1800 receiver
Klipsch rf-3II fronts (i have read that these do have a narrow soundstage,but its usually overcome by toeing them in slightly)
klipsch rc3II center
klipsch cdt5800c surrounds
Hsu Vtf3mk3 ho with turbo sub
Hsu MBm12 mid bass module
this problem is only in 2 channel mode as i guess the center mask this when in 5.1 to some degree.

Any suggestions?
Thanks
Dean


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

First of all ... Welcome :wave:



jdeanmc said:


> ...the right front has a door that opens into a little under the stairs room and the left front has a 5 foot openening that leads upstairs...i have the *speakers about 10 feet apart *and my listening position is about 8.5 from front wall...
> 
> My problem now is i cant get a wide enough sweet spot from the fronts,sounds great only if you sit in the center of the sofa.sit left and the left speaker is too dominate,sit right.ditto.
> 
> I worry that my problem is that the right front is about 2 foot closer to the side wall than the left front,due to the opening leading up the stairs.as i dont know how i can overcome this other than building a false wall,which i really cant get that indepth just yet.


In my case I set up the sweet spot where I sit ... and let the other seats suffer a little :bigsmile:

I agree that maybe your problem is the speaker placement (one near door and the other near an opening) ... can you swap your room so both will have the same boundaries???

Also, I remember reading that your speakers need to be at the same distance from listening position to front wall (in this case 8.5 feet) ... try it and see if it helps :huh:

Hopefully somebody else can give other suggestions :yes:



> this problem is only in 2 channel mode as i guess the center mask this when in 5.1 to some degree.


Does your RXV 1800 has the "7 channel stereo"??? ... if it does, try it and see how it sounds.


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Thanks for the welcome
I really cant swap room as the surrounds are in ceiling,not to mention that i plan to add a projector and it will have to do on what is now the front wall.
I am planning on swapping positions with the a/v rack and right speaker maybe tonight so that i can move the front closer together,i have also had the suggestion from another post to move the much further apart?but i really cant do that as ill be in front of a door and in the middle of a walkway.
Thanks
Dean


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> My problem now is i cant get a wide enough sweet spot from the fronts,sounds great only if you sit in the center of the sofa.sit left and the left speaker is too dominate,sit right.ditto.


That's going to be a problem with any speakers. However, any channel-specific info in the channel farthest from the seating (i,.e., the right speaker from the left seat) should at least be audible. If not, your speakers don't have good enough dispersion. For an example of what I'm talking about, see the movie listening section of my review of the SVS SBS-01 speakers, which you can access from my signature.



> I worry that my problem is that the right front is about 2 foot closer to the side wall than the left front,due to the opening leading up the stairs.as i dont know how i can overcome this other than building a false wall,which i really cant get that indepth just yet.


Problems from non-symmetrical boundaries will typically show up on the speaker's lower frequencies, below ~500 Hz. The speaker with better boundary reinforcement (i.e., closer to them) will have better bass output (or perhaps a bit different response) below that point. Most imaging-related information is above 500 Hz.

Regards,
Wayne


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

Thanks Wayne,i believe you,ve helped me before with other issues on either the klipsch or avs forum sites.
Sitting at say the left position you can hear the right speaker just fine its just that the left is much stronger.So i think your telling me i really have no problem?
i was planning on moving the fronts a little closer tonight but i dont want to bother if its not necessary.
Thanks for the reply
Dean


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

You gave a pretty good description of your setup, but any chance to get a diagram? It'll make sure we've got the situation correct..

Also, how many accoustic panels do you have? You said you have them at the first reflection points, but is that one panel per wall? or two? or ?? 

What is the floor material? (i.e., carpeted or hardwood) What about furniture and it's relation to your sitting position?

Speakers have a natural sweet spot and some work better off axis then others, but the accoustics of the room are going to be the biggest factor IMO. 

JCD


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

the floor material is carpet,very thin not much padding,the previous owners used this basement room as en exercise room.the subfloor is concrete.this will be replaced probably in the spring.
I have two acoustic panels at first reflection points,one per wall and two basstraps on front wall
Note the listening position to front wall is now 13.5 feet from front wall(38 % or 8.5feet from rear wall)
also the hsu ho is now on the right wall about 3 feet in front of the door at the right front


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Move the speakers out toward the listening position more and toe them in. The Klipsch will, at best, have a tight sweet spot. You need to get the speakers farther from the equipment in the middle to enhance the image. Get that right, then deal with equalization. Then start thinking about room treatments.


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

The pic. doesnt show this but the fronts are about 15 to 16 inches from the front wall and as of last night i used a laser to "point" them,they are toed in to point directly at the middle of the center cushion,i also leveled them so that they are pointing exactly at ear level on the center cushion.This did improve but not eliminate problem.Also i have (2)panels at first reflection point's and (2)bass traps on the front wall.I do plan on adding one more panels to each side wall,for a total of two per side wall,i will have to put these almost side by side as the bathroom on the left rear wall restricts spreading them out,unless i move the currents panels further forward which would move them ahead of the reflection point.
Here is a more current diagram


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Like I said, move them out more. Get the most that you can in terms of placement of the speakers, then worry about additional tweaks. It could be that you have as much as you can get from these speakers.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm with lcaillo on this one.. I'd try moving the speakers out a bit more than you have them currently and see how that works.

Also, I think you may be able be more effective with the treatments you have. Specifically, the bass traps.. those don't seem to be where I thought they should be.

I also think you may need more panels. I experimented with a friend of mine once. We had set up a pair of speakers in my living room. Horribly reflective -- hard wood floors, windows, doors, blah blah blah. Anyway, We put an area rug between our listening position and the speakers and then laid out six 2'x4'x2" panels and two 2'x2'x2" panels around the room that I had recently made. The with and without was DRAMATICALLY different. With, there was great imaging. Without, there was one big wad of sound.

I'd suggest a post in our accoustics forum -- bpape is gonna be WAY smarter about that stuff than I am.

JCD


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

I am planning on building a few more traps,i just used up one box and quit,i have enough material for a few more,i just havent got anymore insulation yet.
Without just randomly scattering the basstraps around,where would you suggest they go,my biggest problem as you may can see from the diagram is that i have doors in almost every corner!!


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2008)

If all you wish is great imaging with Home Theater - try KEF speakers.

Mr. KIA :bigsmile:


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

The horns in the RF3's should give better than average off axis response. Did you do the YPAO in more than one location? How does it sound when you turn the auto-eq off?

Klipsch's manual for the RF3 II states that the speakers should be 6' to 15' apart, 24" from the front and side walls and 1 to 1.5X their width apart to your listening position. You probably don't need to toe in since you are getting good stereo imaging in your sweet spot. So in your case, sitting ~14 feet back (after moving speakers out a bit from the front wall) you would want them anywhere from ~7' to ~12' apart.

That is of course from their manual and other expert users such as the one found at Home Theater Shack could give better advise. Room treatments will help out a lot too as others have mentioned.


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## jdeanmc (Aug 26, 2008)

i have improved imaging considerably since last post.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
I do want to build a few more traps but for now moving the speakers about 12 feet apart AND slightly toeing them in made a dramatic difference,i notice considerable more seperation between the fronts and the center during movies its sounding great,i do still notice some right bias while watching regular tv programming but then i can change channels and everything seems fine?different channels different results,but overall with movies its fine now.
Thanks again


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Good to hear. 

Glad to hear the your experimentation led to a better result. 

I think a post in the acoustics subforum about placement for your as yet unbuilt panels would be a prudent move as I think improving the setup/acoustics of your system/room will give you the best results.

JCD


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