# Upgrade RXV-375....AVR or Separates, suggestions



## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

I currently have an RXV-375 that I have been using for about 6 months. It is the first AVR that I have had in quite a few years, and was basically an impulse, unexpected purchase with no research.

Should I choose to upgrade, there seems to be a vast sea of options not only in AVR's, but also in the choice of wether to go the AVR route or with a separate amp and processor.

I am open to suggestions for AVR's, and what reasons would influence anyones suggestion.

As far as separate components go, the reason I am thinking about this, is it would seem that one could purchase a somewhat permanent 5 or 7 channel amp, pair it with a current processor, then upgrade the processor as technology advances without having to replace the more permanent amplifier. Does this seem like a good train of thought? If I go this route, I am totally lost as to what to consider, so definitely open to suggestions to look into, again, with some input as to why you might recommend a particular type.

Use: 5.1 living room home theater/stereo setup.
Equipment: HSU HB1.2 and HC1.2 for L, R, and C. Surrounds to be ordered soon, possibly fluance bipole design.
Sub: PB2000, small possibility of pairing this up with a second sub in the future.
Sony 5100 Blu Ray
Apple TV
Older Panasonic 50" Flat Screen

Budget: $1,000-$1500

Thank you all for any help and suggestions.:help:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The challenge with a budget like that is your limited in what pre pros that are available. For $1500 you can get a great receiver that not only has all the best features but plenty of power to drive most speakers. 
Many receivers have pre outs allowing them to have external amps hooked up to just two speakers or all 7 or 9 channels. 
Have a look at accessories4less
http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...iver/Home-Audio/Home-Theater-Receivers/1.html


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

From your listed equipment, it looks like you only need the basic connections. Namely a couple of HDMI inputs. AVR's now days will have plenty of those. The next best feature is the room correction software. I like to recommend Audussey XT32/Sub EQ. By the time you get to this class of AVR, your bases are pretty much covered. And Tony's right about the power. Get external amps later if you get a huge room or really hard to drive speakers.


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## JDEaston (Dec 30, 2011)

I like your idea, and I also follow the same train of thought as you when it comes to separates. If you have the amplification you need, you can always upgrade the preamp as needed. Keep in mind though a really nice preamp will cost about the same as a nice receiver with built in amplification.

I have never used separates, so I can't speak for any qualitly differences. I do however like the idea behind them. with your budget though, I agree with others that it would be best to buy a receiver with preouts for now. 

Once you have an avr with preouts you can save up and buy the amp(s) you would need if you decide to purchase a preamp when it is time to upgrade the avr. You could buy a nice age with preouts for 7-800, the left over money in your budget could go towards adding an amp(s) in the future if you feel the need. Then once its time to replace the age you could just buy a preamp and you would have true separates, if that's what you want.


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## padgman1 (Feb 13, 2013)

So, Bear, to take all of the above suggestions together, here's what you can get at Accessories 4 less - keep in mind all of these AVR's are refurbished, but all will have a 1 year warranty and AC4L is an authorized dealer for all...........

Denon X4000 $888.88

Marantz SR 7008 $1399.99

Onkyo Tx-NR929 $888.88


All of these AVR's have >100W/ channel, have Audyssey XT32 along with all of the features most people would use in an AVR..........

Good listening............


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## TheLaw612 (Jan 17, 2012)

As mentioned above I'd go for the Denon X4000 for AC4L for ~$900 so you can have XT32 and Sub EQ to really get your PB2000 dialed in. If you choose to get a second PB2000 then it will be even more worth it to have the X4000.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> Budget: $1,000-$1500


To me, your budget is your answer as Pre-pros and five channels worth of decent amplification in my opinion is going greatly exceed your budget.

With the above "Debbie the Downer" opinion, my recommendation is a Denon AVR-X4000.

It's within your budget. Has a full set of Pre-Outs. Should you want to add outboard Amps at a later time and date, you can. It has Audyssey XT32 w/SubEQ HT for dual sub EQ'g and receives rave reviews for the robust output of the amplifier section from those who have purchased and used the X4000.

In my opinion, the X4000 is a win, win, win purchase, that fits nicely into your budget.


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

I agree with the others. With the budget you have set, you would be much better going going for an AVR up front.
Most of the AVRs at that price point will have pre-outs, so when you're ready you can add a nice power amp to the equation.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

There are many people who can't here the difference between teh results of Audyssey and other room correction facilities. I would not limit your choice to receivers that just use Audyssey. I would also take a serious hard look at Yamaha's Adventage series of a receivers. Yamaha's reputation for bullet proof reliability stands over any other brand. They have a solid power supply feeding a soldi amp section and their pre-amp sections have some of the best S/N ratios out there easily putting some boutique brands to same.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

3dbinCanada said:


> There are many people who can't here the difference between teh results of Audyssey and other room correction facilities.


I'm a layperson, with only experience as my qualification and nothing more.

Audyssey has several quality levels and the best being XT32/SubEQ HT. Just asking and having a conversation, are you posting about XT32, XT or EQ levels of Audyssey? In the case of the X4000, it comes with XT32/SubEQ HT and hopefully the individual will at some time and point have the money to integrate a pair of subwoofers into their sound system so they can take full advantage of what XT32/SubEQ HT has to offer.

I'm a big proponent of REW to the point of being accused of being a REW zealot and I am more than happy to post, that is a fair assessment of my attachment to REW. With benefit of an up-and-running freeware copy of REW, one can physically see the benefit room correction software brings to the table. Without a room analyzing program such as REW, one is flying blind as to the benefit of one program over the other. If one has a huge suck out in an area such as the 40hz to 80hz range, the mid-bass slam we all strive for is gone and yes, when these dips, nulls and peaks are corrected for, it's a safe bet that most, if not all can hear the difference.

Opening myself up to criticism, I only have personal experience with Audyssey. Yes, there are better programs than what Audyssey has to offer but it's going cost the consumer a lot more than the cost of a X4000. My understanding, if one has the money and insists on separates with room correction which is held in higher esteem than XT32, I would recommend looking at the yet to be released Emotiva XMC-1 and an appropriate set of amplifiers.

The point of my above, within the constraints of the stated budget, I'm trying to qualify my comments, show support for the X4000 recommendation, benefits found in using Audyssey XT32/SubEQ HT and via REW, physically show how one can empirically see the benefit of any particular room correction program. As to the ability of one to hear differences, in my opinion, that's going be up to the skill level and accuracy of the individual effecting the room correction software.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> I'm a layperson, with only experience as my qualification and nothing more.
> 
> Audyssey has several quality levels and the best being XT32/SubEQ HT. Just asking and having a conversation, are you posting about XT32, XT or EQ levels of Audyssey? In the case of the X4000, it comes with XT32/SubEQ HT and hopefully the individual will at some time and point have the money to integrate a pair of subwoofers into their sound system so they can take full advantage of what XT32/SubEQ HT has to offer.
> 
> ...


There are also a growing number of people who turn off Audyssey in preference for the the unprocessed sound. My point in all of this is Audyssey is not the end all to be all and the OP should be exploring all of the AVRs on the market except for maybe ONKYO who's QA and customer service is dismal beyond reproach.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

3dbinCanada said:


> My point in all of this is Audyssey is not the end all to be all and the OP should be exploring all of the AVRs on the market except for maybe ONKYO who's QA and customer service is dismal beyond reproach.


...:T

Onkyo is out. Alternatives to Audyssey should be considered. Within the OP's stated budget, Pre-Pro vs an AVR with a full set of Pre-Outs, do you have any recommendations the OP can look at? Would you recommend the current Yamaha equivalent to your Yamaha RX-V1800? Would a Yamaha RX-A2030 be a good choice?

...

I'm quite sure if one were to make phone calls, they could work a better price. At "Accessories4less," a refurbished unit can be had for $1,100.00USD. And the OP could start saving up for a killer set of Emotiva amplifiers.

...


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

3dbinCanada said:


> There are also a growing number of people who turn off Audyssey in preference for the the unprocessed sound. My point in all of this is Audyssey is not the end all to be all and the OP should be exploring all of the AVRs on the market except for maybe ONKYO who's QA and customer service is dismal beyond reproach.


I would not characterize Onkyo's QA and customer service as such. There are many here and elsewhere that are very happy with Onkyo, myself included. While I have always been a Yamaha fan from a reliability and service perspective, and been the one to criticize Onkyo as not being as good in those respects, one much keep that kind of criticism in perspective. Onkyo has some great products in terms of value, and when we talk about reliability differences, we are talking about a very very small percentage of units that fail. Onkyo sells many more AVRs than others, however, so you hear about the problems more. They did have a period where the HDMI boards failed more than most, but all brands have similar, if not quite on the same level.

If you have personal experience with a product that is bad, please post it. We don't pull any punches, but we also do not allow bashing of any brand. Sweeping statements like the obove is on the edge. Again, post your facts and your opinon, but let's be reasonable and fair with all brands.

Also, with respect to Audyssey, my experience is that very few people who use it carefully are turning it off in preference to the unprocessed sound. In fact, in many systems, even very expensive ones, it can be a significant benefit. Certainly, in some systems, particularly those with complex room acoustics problems, it may not work as well, but even in those cases, perhaps requiring the pro product, you can usually find some significant improvements. Again, this from someone who for years would not use any processing at all.

Times have changed. AVRs perform better than ever and are more reliable than ever. Signal processing has evolved to the point where it is certainly worth considering in almost any system.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I would recommend going with an AVR over separates too.
The theory of getting a great amplifier and just switching the processor out as technology changes looks good on paper, but the reality is processors cost as much (usually more) than a mid/top tier AVR.
In the home environment it is rare that a mid/top tier AVR does not have adequate amplification built in. HiFi/HT nuts love gadgets/gear (myself included) and adding an amplifier to the system can bring satisfaction on many levels...I am not convinced by any means that improved sound quality actually occurs with the addition of an amplifier though.

When it comes to room correction I am on the fence.
I read many instances of people using room correction for watching movies and using Pure Direct mode for listening to music.
If the EQ is actually doing what it is supposed to do wouldn't it make sense music would sound better with it on ?
My AVR has a correction mode that leaves the front L/R speakers flat and applies phase correction and frequency EQ to the rest of the speakers to match them to the front mains, that is the mode I prefer for everything.
I lean towards the Denon and Pioneer products, but any of the major brands is a good choice.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Has bear123 abandoned his thread as there hasn't been additional input that I can find since the OP on 21Feb14 and it's now 02Mar14.

...

Are you there Bear123?


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Yes I am here. I did lose track of the thread for a bit though. Lots of great information by everyone. Many of my questions and uncertanties have been answered, so thanks to all. It seems that the consensus, given what i am willing to consider spending, an AVR will be the best route to go. The Denon X4000 would probably be a top choice for me at this point. I very much like Yamaha and their apparent quality, but I just cannot forgive their inability to eq subwoofers. I feel like this is too strong of a cabability to pass up and easily outweighs any other relatively minor differences between brands. I am currently in the process of finalizing by first subwoofer purchase after nearing the end of my 45 day trial period with my current subwoofer. Expanding my budget here by a few hundred will put things on pause for a bit, but I have a good idea of where to head when the time is right. Thanks again to all!


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## JDEaston (Dec 30, 2011)

Bear123 said:


> Yes I am here. I did lose track of the thread for a bit though. Lots of great information by everyone. Many of my questions and uncertanties have been answered, so thanks to all. It seems that the consensus, given what i am willing to consider spending, an AVR will be the best route to go. The Denon X4000 would probably be a top choice for me at this point. I very much like Yamaha and their apparent quality, but I just cannot forgive their inability to eq subwoofers. I feel like this is too strong of a cabability to pass up and easily outweighs any other relatively minor differences between brands. I am currently in the process of finalizing by first subwoofer purchase after nearing the end of my 45 day trial period with my current subwoofer. Expanding my budget here by a few hundred will put things on pause for a bit, but I have a good idea of where to head when the time is right. Thanks again to all!


Not trying to sway you either way, I am sure the x4000 is a great avr. But in my honest opinion, though it just an opinion, is that external devises such as the minidsp eq subs much better than any room correction that avr's offer. 

Just throwing that out there because they are inexpensive but do a great job. I have always liked denon, marantz, and yamaha as my favorites, but I wouldnt choose any specific one of them based on room correction alone. There are to many external options that can be applied to any avr to make room correction the deciding factor in my opinion.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JDEaston said:


> Just throwing that out there because they are inexpensive but do a great job. I have always liked denon, marantz, and yamaha as my favorites, but I wouldnt choose any specific one of them based on room correction alone. There are to many external options that can be applied to any avr to make room correction the deciding factor in my opinion.


A miniDSP is what someone gets when they don't have decent room correction. 

A miniDSP is a stand alone product, which is added to the audio chain where as the X4000 in all inclusive. Just saying, miniDSP needs an AVR but an AVR doesn't need a miniDSP. And again just saying, based on personal experience, choosing an AVR with XT32/SubEQ HT and what all else comes with it like an excellent amplifier section makes for an excellent reason to choose an AVR.

I'm not knocking the miniDSP as it and REW are fast friends and unequivocally it's an excellent product that does what it's said to do but it behooves a consumer to choose the best AVR, with as many whistles and bells as needed so they can see what they can do with XT32/SubEQ HT and for what ever reason, if additional tweaking is needed, then opt for a miniDSP.


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## JDEaston (Dec 30, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> A miniDSP is what someone gets when they don't have decent room correction.
> 
> A miniDSP is a stand alone product, which is added to the audio chain where as the X4000 in all inclusive. Just saying, miniDSP needs an AVR but an AVR doesn't need a miniDSP. And again just saying, based on personal experience, choosing an AVR with XT32/SubEQ HT and what all else comes with it like an excellent amplifier section makes for an excellent reason to choose an AVR.
> 
> I'm not knocking the miniDSP as it and REW are fast friends and unequivocally it's an excellent product that does what it's said to do but it behooves a consumer to choose the best AVR, with as many whistles and bells as needed so they can see what they can do with XT32/SubEQ HT and for what ever reason, if additional tweaking is needed, then opt for a miniDSP.


In my experience a minidsp has been used to eq the lfe channel, not the entire room correction. It can be used in cojunction with an avr that has room correction, whether the avr's correction can 'correct' the sub or not.

In my experience, minidsp does a better job than any avr's room correction for the sub. Though I have not used anthem or rew yet. The minidsp and rew are well above average room correction software, of not the best. The OP asked for options, in my opinion, these are more than viable options to buying a top of the line avr when what it seems is all the OP needs is a good avr with preouts for amplification at this time.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JDEaston said:


> The OP asked for options, in my opinion, these are more than viable options to buying a top of the line avr when what it seems is all the OP needs is a good avr with preouts for amplification at this time.


Yes, he did, options regarding AVRs and separates. If one has an AVR with top of the line amplification, they don't need outboard amplifiers. I would recommend a Denon AVR4520CI for many reasons but doing so is outside the OP's stated budget. And over all, it's a tricky mix as one tries to economically go from an existing AVR to a Pre-Pro/outboard amplifier setup within the stated budget. To be encouraging, if one starts out with quality, they don't need to add appliances to make-up for any shortfall.

If one buys an AVR with XT32/SubEQ HT and a quality amplifier section, they won't need a miniDSP or outboard amplifiers. They won't need a huge equipment rack to hold everything and with a freeware copy of REW up and running, they'll be able to use the controls in the AVR and on the subs to fine tune anything not to their liking. Again, I'm not knocking the concept of miniDSP coupled with REW but in the same light, a quality AVR is a lot more than just a electrical box with room correction, amplifiers and Pre-Outs.

Just saying, on my part, enough has been said regarding the OP's original question.


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## JDEaston (Dec 30, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> Yes, he did, options regarding AVRs and separates. If one has an AVR with top of the line amplification, they don't need outboard amplifiers. I would recommend a Denon AVR4520CI for many reasons but doing so is outside the OP's stated budget. And over all, it's a tricky mix as one tries to economically go from an existing AVR to a Pre-Pro/outboard amplifier setup within the stated budget. To be encouraging, if one starts out with quality, they don't need to add appliances to make-up for any shortfall.
> 
> If one buys an AVR with XT32/SubEQ HT and a quality amplifier section, they won't need a miniDSP or outboard amplifiers. They won't need a huge equipment rack to hold everything and with a freeware copy of REW up and running, they'll be able to use the controls in the AVR and on the subs to fine tune anything not to their liking. Again, I'm not knocking the concept of miniDSP coupled with REW but in the same light, a quality AVR is a lot more than just a electrical box with room correction, amplifiers and Pre-Outs.
> 
> Just saying, on my part, enough has been said regarding the OP's original question.


Your right, everyone should just buy whatever avr uses xt/32 and not explore other options to see if they may be better. Seems to be your opinion, I just figured I would give the OP my view from experience, honestly I don't care what they choose, just would like for them to know all of their options.

As far as not needing extra amplification if you have a great avr, that's just an opinion too.. I don't disagree with that at all, but many in the home theater world would. Plenty of people that.own top of the line receivers use external amps. I would say about half of the ones that don't, have considered it.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

JDEaston said:


> Not trying to sway you either way, I am sure the x4000 is a great avr. But in my honest opinion, though it just an opinion, is that external devises such as the minidsp eq subs much better than any room correction that avr's offer.
> 
> Just throwing that out there because they are inexpensive but do a great job. I have always liked denon, marantz, and yamaha as my favorites, but I wouldnt choose any specific one of them based on room correction alone. There are to many external options that can be applied to any avr to make room correction the deciding factor in my opinion.


Well, I am quite value conscious and, as such, ordered a miniDSP for exactly that reason. A $225 receiver with ARC, and a $90 add on for sub eq = a lot of bang for my buck. Accomplishing for $300 what it takes most others $1100 or more to do is right up my alley. However, I have been unable to get the miniDSP to work in my system.:scratch: I will put some more effort in this weekend but so far I have a serious output issue that I cannot fix. I hope I can get it to work.


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## JDEaston (Dec 30, 2011)

Bear123 said:


> Well, I am quite value conscious and, as such, ordered a miniDSP for exactly that reason. A $225 receiver with ARC, and a $90 add on for sub eq = a lot of bang for my buck. Accomplishing for $300 what it takes most others $1100 or more to do is right up my alley. However, I have been unable to get the miniDSP to work in my system.:scratch: I will put some more effort in this weekend but so far I have a serious output issue that I cannot fix. I hope I can get it to work.


I'm confused. What $90 sub eq add on did you buy? Also what receiver did you with ARC for $225? By ARC your speaking of Anthem Room Correction, right? 

Those comments confuse me a little. But other than that, what problem are you having with the minidsp?


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

Bear123 said:


> Yes I very much like Yamaha and their apparent quality, but I just cannot forgive their inability to eq subwoofers. I feel like this is too strong of a cabability to pass up and easily outweighs any other relatively minor differences between brands.


I wish someone would tell my Yammy it can't eq the sub. 

I see this comment a lot and wonder if people haven't caught up with the capabilities of the current iteration of YPAO.
It may not eq down to 10Hz or anything silly like that, but from my experience it does a pretty good job.


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## jcwhammie (Feb 11, 2014)

littlejohn74 said:


> I wish someone would tell my Yammy it can't eq the sub.
> 
> I see this comment a lot and wonder if people haven't caught up with the capabilities of the current iteration of YPAO.
> It may not eq down to 10Hz or anything silly like that, but from my experience it does a pretty good job.


Agreed. My rx-a2020 eqs my dual sub's nicely. Plus it gives me the ability to manually tweak the results. It would be nice if it would allow adjustments below 31hz, though.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

littlejohn74 said:


> It may not eq down to 10Hz or anything silly like that, but from my experience it does a pretty good job.


I'm one of those people who care about EQg ability down to 10Hz. There's a lot of content in the <10Hz area. What's so silly about wanting this ability?


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

BeeMan458 said:


> I'm one of those people who care about EQg ability down to 10Hz. There's a lot of content in the <10Hz area. What's so silly about wanting this ability?


A lot of <10hz content ??
Really ?


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

chashint said:


> A lot of <10hz content ??
> Really ?


Surprisingly, yes. On another forum, there's a thread running where folks measure and post their results and if one is into bass, the OP lists the movies that have this <10Hz content in the sound tracks. Movies such as "The Incredible Hulk," "Battle: Los Angeles," "Pacific Rim" and "Getaway" are excellent examples of bass heavy movies that have better than <10Hz content. Our next bass movie will be "The Hurt Locker"

It's quite the active thread. To be able to take advantage of as much as possible, we have our system +/-3dB down to 11Hz where the graph begins to fall like a stone.

REW created measurements:

  

A couple have their systems +/-3dB to 5Hz. Just saying, they also have insane subwoofer systems that the majority here would not even try to replicate. Others are able to come close with the likes of a pair of PSA XS30s that gives the depth of extension but not quite the output at these low levels of extension. For us, sealed subwoofer systems with both, extension and output, are out of our budgetary ability but these systems are out there.

Being that it's a competing forum, I intentionally don't mention it's name but if you're interested, PM me and I'd be happy to share the thread title.


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> I'm one of those people who care about EQg ability down to 10Hz. There's a lot of content in the <10Hz area. What's so silly about wanting this ability?


Sorry.. I wasn't saying that it's "silly" as in stupid, to eq down that low. 

Another way I could have put it would be "..... or nothing crazy like that" implying that although YPAO eqs the sub its unable to eq the lowest of low notes.

Figure of speech :bigsmile:



BeeMan458 said:


> Surprisingly, yes. On another forum, there's a thread running where folks measure and post their results and if one is into bass, the OP lists the movies that have this <10Hz content in the sound tracks. Movies such as "The Incredible Hulk," "Battle: Los Angeles," "Pacific Rim" and "Getaway" are excellent examples of bass heavy movies that have better than <10Hz content. Our next bass movie will be "The Hurt Locker"
> 
> It's quite the active thread. To be able to take advantage of as much as possible, we have our system +/-3dB down to 11Hz where the graph begins to fall like a stone.
> 
> ...


Although there is "content" down that low I would question what percentage it makes up. I would also question how those extremely low frequency content got there. ie whether it was the intent of the studio or more due to the effect of the room.

I would have thought that trying to actively eq outside a driver's response range would be difficult.

PS. not trying to be confrontational... but more curious.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

littlejohn74 said:


> Figure of speech :bigsmile:


Yes, language can be confusing as in "Stupid Cat" being an endearing term.



> Although there is "content" down that low I would question what percentage it makes up. I would also question how those extremely low frequency content got there. ie whether it was the intent of the studio or more due to the effect of the room.


Some mixers put up a brick wall at 20Hz and some intentionally master the track down to zero.



> I would have thought that trying to actively eq outside a driver's response range would be difficult.
> 
> PS. not trying to be confrontational... but more curious.


No argument, just two guys having a conversation. As to a driver's response range, some of the manufactures design and have drivers made to their specifications so they can get that low. Power Sound Audio and Rythmik are two of the best who do this economically. Others, are more expensive, JTR Captivator S2s and some by Seaton Sound and Funk Audio but you're paying for furniture grade sound quality with the last two.


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## Viggen (Dec 31, 2008)

Denon - my 20+ year old AVR 3000 is still kicking along without a singe issue. Presently moved to garage duty......

Yamaha - wife has 3 AVR's from the late 90's to early 2000's with two of them experiencing a single amp channel that's not working. 

Integra - never been a fan of Onkyo, always preferred Denon however I wanted a pre/pro thus purchased a DHC 9.8 which did experience hdmi failure. They were excellent to deal with and the pre/pro was fixed quickly no charge to me. When it was out for service I decided to upgrade and have the newer DHC 80.3 which has been trouble free.

For me I totally think its worth the added cost going seperate amps and a pre/pro. Even with effecient speakers there is a huge difference in sq between a AVR power and seperate amps power. When difficult to drive speakers are used the difference is magnified..... At least that's how I feel. 

To me comparing a AVR to a pre/pro and seperate amps is like comparing a porsche 911 to a 911 turbo. If you can't tell the difference then go the cheaper route..... However if you can tell the difference and have the budget to do so then its worth the added cost. 

In that budget I would consider a used pre/pro and also used amplifiers. My pre/pros were purchased new.... Store gave me a great deal on them.... Speakers and amplifiers were all purchased used.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

JDEaston said:


> I'm confused. What $90 sub eq add on did you buy? Also what receiver did you with ARC for $225? By ARC your speaking of Anthem Room Correction, right?
> 
> Those comments confuse me a little. But other than that, what problem are you having with the minidsp?


Sub eq for $90 = miniDSP.

Yamaha RXV-375 was on sale for $225, it uses YPAO for automatic room correction. Hopefully I used this abbreviation properly. If not, sorry for the confusion.

My YPAO does exactly zero for sub eq. Was not aware that Yamaha's higher level receivers offered any sub eq, I thought it only went down to 60 Hz. If the high end models go to 30 that is still, in my book, an unacceptable weakness.

From the Audioholics review of the Yamaha RX-A2020:

"Speakers can be further customized with a built in parametric equalizer (PEQ). Although some PEQs allow adjustment down to 20Hz, Yamaha limits theirs to 62.5Hz. I am not sure why Yamaha does not allow manual or automatic (YPAO) EQ below 62.5Hz, but it is unfortunate as this cutoff remains a limit on the user’s ability to EQ a subwoofer."

I knew my receiver did not have sub eq capability. This article, along with other things I have recently read about YPAO, led me to believe none of them do.

My issue with the miniDSP is that it, at the least, is cutting my subwoofer output in half, even with no eq or filters of any kind and gain set to max. I can turn the sub gain all the way up, AVR sub trim to +10, and get barely adequate bass.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

I have an XS30 ordered and believe it will get me solid output down into the 14Hz range in my room. I don't think I will miss much of anything in the majority of movies with this capability. In the future, I may end up pairing it with an XS15 placed nearfield for room smoothing and of course to strengthen the low frequency output capabilities. Certainly not for max SPL, as the XS30 is capable of some ridiculous output. A bit less than the stout FV15HP down low, but quite a bit higher in the mid bass slam area. Now of course I might get lucky and end up with solid output down to 10 Hz, and I certainly wont complain if this happens, but I am not counting on it. My PB2000 was pretty solid down to 16 Hz in my room.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> I have an XS30 ordered and believe it will get me solid output down into the 14Hz range in my room. I don't think I will miss much of anything in the majority of movies with this capability. In the future, I may end up pairing it with an XS15 placed nearfield for room smoothing and of course to strengthen the low frequency output capabilities. Certainly not for max SPL, as the XS30 is capable of some ridiculous output. A bit less than the stout FV15HP down low, but quite a bit higher in the mid bass slam area. Now of course I might get lucky and end up with solid output down to 10 Hz, and I certainly wont complain if this happens, but I am not counting on it. My PB2000 was pretty solid down to 16 Hz in my room.


I would expect you to get single digits with a XS30. The problem, the output of the XS30 drops off like a stone at the lower octave. With room gain, you can get up to +12dB in the lower octaves and without a doubt, the XS30 is a monster in the upper octaves.










If looking to full on reference level output, the problem is output in the lower octave.

Disclosure: I'm a fanboy of the XS30 but for reasons of output in the lower octave, went with a pair of FV15HP.

I hope you can find the money for a second XS30.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Yeah I know sealed needs room gain to support sub 30 Hz output. I think that my room size may be ok even though I do have some openings...its really tough to say. According to dimensions, I should start getting gain about 33Hz in my room. So hopefully by the time I dip below 20Hz it will still get some authoratative output. Bee, I think I would have gone Rythmik over the XS30 if I were you as well, your room is just too large and open to get enough gain. 

In my case, again, I am hoping room gain boosts my low end, but I am not *counting* on strong output below 14 Hz...I didn't base my buying decision on it. That way I won't be disappointed if i don't get it. If I do, even better  Another reason I felt the XS30 was the superior choice for me is that it was cheaper than comparable alternatives(FV15HP, PB12 plus, SB13 ultra), and has superior mid and upper bass output to those options, which will complement my setup better. I have bookshelf speakers, so I think the very high output in this area will synergize well.

Unless I discover a way to make one work as an end table(which is doubtful) if this placement would even work well, the most likely candidate will be an XS15 for room smoothing, as it has to go nearfield in a very limited space. Also, just not willing to spend another 1150. The XS15 should have a similar FR and has the same shallow low frequency rolloff. Would like to stay cheaper, but I think this would be the best option outside of a matching dual.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> Would like to stay cheaper, but I think this would be the best option outside of a matching dual.


The sooner one gives up on the idea of not spending money on their subwoofer system, the sooner they can get what they really want, depth of extension with lots of output.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> The sooner one gives up on the idea of not spending money on their subwoofer system, the sooner they can get what they really want, depth of extension with lots of output.


I think the extra money I spent on the XS30 will give me what I want. I think I could have been happy with the PB2000, but the XS30 represented a better value for a long term addition to my setup. I wanted the XS30 more than I wanted my money. At this point, I want my money more than I want to add any more subwoofer, other than for smoothing 

I'll let you know how it measures hopefully next week.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> I'll let you know how it measures hopefully next week.


I'll eagerly look forward to your first impression comments and any graphs you have to share.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Hopefully it will top the 10 Hz output that my Polk manages.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> Hopefully it will top the 10 Hz output that my Polk manages.


:yikes:

You have a Polk sub that does 10Hz?

:yikes:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

BeeMan458 said:


> :yikes:
> 
> You have a Polk sub that does 10Hz?
> 
> :yikes:


Agreed, the best polk sub they make is the 10" microPRO 3000 and its lowest output is 24Hz.


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## jcwhammie (Feb 11, 2014)

Bear123 said:


> Hopefully it will top the 10 Hz output that my Polk manages.


I've seen your measurements for the polk on the other forum. It's a pretty sweet bump at 10hz! A tad quiet from 14hz-35hz, though.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

My priorities in looking at an AVR is reliability and customer service and no other AVR manufacturer has enjoyed as much success in both of these aspects as Yamaha. The next thing I look at is the amp and power supply sections. Here most mid level and up AVRs do reasonably well in that department. The last thing I will look at is RC. Room correction is not that important to me. Sure its nice for HT but I also use my system as a 2 channel system when listening to music which is 50% of its use. When in two channel mode, all DSP gets turned off and I run pure direct driving my towers full range. Dam it sounds good. I want to hear as much as possible, unprocessed sound coming out of my main speakers when listening to two channel sound. 

Lets examine the HT soundtrack for a moment. How many of you actually heard in real life the sound affects portrayed in movies such as exploding planes, sinking ships, a phasor cannon or the force? These things that occur in the movie soundtracks are imaginary and not real based on the producers mind. (Don't get me wrong I enjoy every second of their imagination) I've heard a number of explosions in real life and none of them sound like what's being portrayed and emblished in the movies. So is it that important to eq your sub against something that is not real? 

It really boils down to its intended use. In my scenario, Audessy will offer me no additional benefits that YPAO can't cover off. It does a great job on my speakers, and leaves the sub alone and I enjoy every uneq'd explosion that my sub offers. When I listen to my system in 2 channel mode, I turn off YPAO and listened to the music through my speakers which were purchased without EQ being used. I want to hear music through my speakers, not through room correction.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

3dbinCanada said:


> MSo is it that important to eq your sub against something that is not real?


On many different levels, it is. There are two worlds out there. The one that revolves around music and the one that revolves around Home Theater. In my opinion, these are two completely and separate realms and I do not mix the two genres. If one is worried about music, even if regularly working with sound tracks that include the output of a double-bass guitar (31.5Hz), for the most part, issues surrounding EQ'g a room for proper sound integration into the acoustics of a room, very much apply. 

In my opinion, the first and foremost consideration is the proper integration of a subwoofer into the acoustics of a room because subwoofer produced sound waves don't play and get along well with each other. Because of this point, due to room acoustics, humps (reinforcement) and cancellation (nulls) are created which takes away from the evenness of sound quality and robs the listener of much that's in the sound track. It's not uncommon at the main listening position to have a huge suckout of 20dB which is a quarter of the energy of the surrounding octaves. And it's also not uncommon to have this suckout occur in the mid-bass range of 50hz to 80Hz which steals the chest thumping impact bass. Quite often, one may have three or four sound quality stealing nulls or mid-bass humps which create one note bass because a ten or twenty dB hump, overpowers the rest of the bass track because the hump is four times as loud as the rest of the bass track. The only way to hear what the director and sound engineer intended, is creating a flat response graph.

Skywalker Sound Check out their dubbing stages.

Higher frequencies are not impacted in the same fashion as are the lower frequencies (<120Hz) reproduced by the LFE channel. None of which deal with bass management issues and/or bass localization issues.

Real or fake, how the sound is produced is not the priority as it's doesn't matter real or synthetic because it's considered a sound effect. Replicating what the producer and sound engineer have mastered into the sound track is everything as they do so with the intent of creating emotional response to affect the viewer's response to what they're seeing on the screen.

If one takes EQ'g out of the equation, then what the director and sound engineer has taken the time to create is destroyed and the viewer loses out on much of what the movie is about, sight "AND" sound.

A suggestion, have you taken the time to download and install a freeware copy of REW? Doing so will allow one to see the acoustics of their room and physically show the individual how much of their sound quality they're being robbed of.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

BeeMan458 said:


> On many different levels, it is. There are two worlds out there. The one that revolves around music and the one that revolves around Home Theater. In my opinion, these to two completely and separate realms and I do not mix the two genres.
> 
> The first and foremost is the proper integration of a subwoofer into the acoustics of a room because subwoofer produced sound waves don't play and get along well with each other and because of this point, due to room acoustics humps (reinforcement) and cancellation; nulls are created which takes away from the evenness of sound quality and robs the listener of much that's in the sound track.
> 
> ...


No offense but judging from your response, you are pro pro audessy and everything else doesn't count. 

I've owned 5 different homes ( yeah I must have gypsy in me somewhere ) with 5 different room shapes and sound characteristics and all of them without auddessy. And I've been estatic with the results in all all them. I did have to experiment with placement initially in all of them but I achieved the results I was after. Judging from the smile on my friends and my family faces, I think I got what the director intended in spades.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

3dbinCanada said:


> No offense but judging from your response, you are pro pro audessy and everything else doesn't count.


I'm pro-REW and I'm pro-EQ'g as nothing in my above that you quoted forward mentions Audyssey. Just saying, in my opinion, how one gets to a flat graph, doesn't matter but getting to a flat graph, does matter.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

3dbinCanada said:


> I want to hear music through my speakers, not through room correction.


Not to start an argument but that statement says a lot. Your speakers or any speakers for that matter will not produce sound in a room as the director intended without some EQ and or a lot of room treatment. Your room will affect how the sound reproduced by your speakers is going to sound. 
I agree that if your happy with how it sounds thats the main thing but I can promise you that it is not sounding as the producer intended running it without good room correction.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> Not to start an argument but that statement says a lot. Your speakers or any speakers for that matter will not produce sound in a room as the director intended without some EQ and or a lot of room treatment. Your room will affect how the sound reproduced by your speakers is going to sound.
> I agree that if your happy with how it sounds thats the main thing but I can promise you that it is not sounding as the producer intended running it without good room correction.


My question to you is (I enjoy this debate so please don't take the question the wrong way  ) ..when you purchased your speakers, did you audition them with or without room correction. You will notice my homemade acoustic panels in my HT pictures.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> :yikes:
> 
> You have a Polk sub that does 10Hz?
> 
> :yikes:


Boom


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

jcwhammie said:


> I've seen your measurements for the polk on the other forum. It's a pretty sweet bump at 10hz! A tad quiet from 14hz-35hz, though.


Pfft.....your just jealous of the 38-60Hz flatness!

Sadly, I boxed up the PB2000 today and dropped it at Fedex, the shakes are starting already...wife was actually quite disapointed as well!(I think she's becoming a back seat audiophile, not that she would admit it)


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> Boom


Is the above graph intended as humor?

...:scratch:


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> Sadly, I boxed up the PB2000 today and dropped it at Fedex, the shakes are starting already...wife was actually quite disapointed as well!(I think she's becoming a back seat audiophile, not that she would admit it)


Why are you sending the PB2000 back?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

3dbinCanada said:


> My question to you is (I enjoy this debate so please don't take the question the wrong way  ) ..when you purchased your speakers, did you audition them with or without room correction. You will notice my homemade acoustic panels in my HT pictures.


I bought the best speakers I could afford (my Mission 765s), my audition was done in a boutique hi-fi store in a proper auditioning room with correct room treatment. My EVs were given to me, and are about as flat a respnce as a speaker can do (were rated to be among the best studio monitors made at the time) 
If your room is not rectangular and has lots of oddly placed furniture your speakers will not produce the intended sound at the listening position unless you go crazy with treatment.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Bear123 said:


> Boom


http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/attachments/home-theater-receivers-processors-amps/47278d1394220695-upgrade-rxv-375-avr-separates-suggestions-psw110.jpg
Ummm, The scale is way off on your reading but its clear it only goes down to 32Hz with any real output.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

tonyvdb said:


> http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/attachments/home-theater-receivers-processors-amps/47278d1394220695-upgrade-rxv-375-avr-separates-suggestions-psw110.jpg
> Ummm, The scale is way off on your reading but its clear it only goes down to 35Hz with any real output.


Yeah that was probably a 75-80 dB sweep, the SPL was not calibrated, and obviously, the 10Hz comment is a bit facetious. And I think you are being to kind about 35 Hz


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> Why are you sending the PB2000 back?



Well, I am finalizing my initial subwoofer purchase. After much studying and research, my opinion is:

The XS30, for $350 extra will provide:

1) At least equivalent output around the PB2000's port tune 16-25 Hz.

2) Much deeper extension and higher output below this.

3) At least double the output above 30Hz, and even more by 80.

4) With my bookshelf speakers and modest AVR, I felt like this extremely strong mid and upper bass output would complement my overall system very well.

5) I believe this will be a subwoofer that I will be thrilled with for many years to come.

6) A dual 15" sub just seemed cool as hell 

7) I never have to worry about port noise or chuffing, no matter how hard I drive the sub. And I don't have to mess with all kinds of different tuning options and port configurations....it should give me gobs of low end output after room gain, and ungodly mid and upper bass output all at the same time.

8) It has a shallow roll off compared to many competing sealed subs, which I find important for extension, and upgrading my nearfield sub to an XS15 in the future seems like a solid upgrade path to me for smoothing and tactile effects.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> Is the above graph intended as humor?
> 
> ...:scratch:


Didn't you laugh?


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> Didn't you laugh?


I was afraid to.

...:sweat:

(didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings)



> The XS30, for $350 extra will provide:.........



You are going be so happy with the XS30 and I'd bet you'll get better than 10Hz. With a nearfield placed XS15, I'd be willing to bet the ranch that you'll be even happier.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> I was afraid to.
> 
> ...:sweat:
> 
> ...


Yeah, even with the pathetic little 40-60 Hz boost that I am getting from the Polk, you can feel the difference with it running alongside the couch. I imaging once I switch to a real sub here it will work quite well.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> Yeah, even with the pathetic little 40-60 Hz boost that I am getting from the Polk, you can feel the difference with it running alongside the couch. I imaging once I switch to a real sub here it will work quite well.


Please. As soon as you can disconnect that Polk PSW110, do. A suggestion, sell it and help make up for that extra $350.00 USD you're spending to upgrade to the XS30. There is absolutely nothing that sweet little sub is going add to the output of the XS30 other than to ruin the sound quality of the XS30. You know what happens when mismatched subwoofers are brought together.

I am so looking forward to testing the amplifiers of our AVR again tonight. Room correction ability aside, I love how it effortlessly reproduces sound at reference level play with lots of headroom so there's no distortion.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> Please. As soon as you can disconnect that Polk PSW110, do. A suggestion, sell it and help make up for that extra $350.00 USD you're spending to upgrade to the XS30. There is absolutely nothing that sweet little sub is going add to the output of the XS30 other than to ruin the sound quality of the XS30. You know what happens when mismatched subwoofers are brought together.
> 
> I am so looking forward to testing the amplifiers of our AVR again tonight. Room correction ability aside, I love how it effortlessly reproduces sound at reference level play with lots of headroom so there's no distortion.


Well, for sure I am going to do some sweeps with the XS30 once it is in room next week and play with phase and distance settings as much as possible. If I still have a horrible 15 dB null at 50 Hz(horrible 40-60), I am afraid I will probably keep the Polk running with the gain turned down to fill the 40-60. At moderate levels it will be better than the huge null(imo) until i upgrade it. Did you see my PB2000 graph with and without the Polk?


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Bear123 said:


> If I still have a horrible 15 dB null at 50 Hz(horrible 40-60), I am afraid I will probably keep the Polk running with the gain turned down to fill the 40-60. At moderate levels it will be better than the huge null(imo) until i upgrade it. Did you see my PB2000 graph with and without the Polk?


If you have a terrible null in the 40Hz to 60Hz range, you'd be wise to ignore my suggestion. :T With a single subwoofer, even one as grand as the XS30, at the MLP, there's every reason to believe you'll have some sort of null or dip to contend with. I think it's one of those "Murphy's Law" sort of things.

As to your comparative graphs, I don't recall seeing them. Doesn't mean I didn't see them. As you know, I "LOVE" looking at graphs. Can you post a link to your graphs? Especially comparative graphs like the ones you're describing.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Ignore the SPL, I did not have it calibrated when I did my first few sweeps, but this should illustrate the FR improvement.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

Woops here is the comparison:


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

Ya gotta love the improvement.

How about when you crank it for a movie? How well does the PSW110 keep up with the PB2000?

Tonight? We decided to test the amplifiers of the AVR, using a blu-ray copy of "Olympus Has Fallen." The theatrical sound track is suppose to have serious dynamic range and should be an excellent test regarding the ability of the amplifier section to keep up with the dynamics of the sound track.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

BeeMan458 said:


> Ya gotta love the improvement.
> 
> How about when you crank it for a movie? How well does the PSW110 keep up with the PB2000?
> 
> Tonight? We decided to test the amplifiers of the AVR, using a blu-ray copy of "Olympus Has Fallen." The theatrical sound track is suppose to have serious dynamic range and should be an excellent test regarding the ability of the amplifier section to keep up with the dynamics of the sound track.


Ooh I plan on snagging that one this weekend so I can use it to demo the new sub when it comes in. I heard the monument scene has some sick low frequency stuff.


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