# Ken Kreisel DXD 2012 or JL AudioFathom F-112



## lesmor (Dec 30, 2009)

Hi Guys
I have both of the above subs on my shortlist to replace a pair of MK Sound MX 350 THX Ultra subs which I hope to sell soon
In the interim I am looking for as much feedback as I can find on the above subwoofers.

I am from the UK and it is no longer possible to demo the Ken Kreisel Subs although there is a 45 day buy or return option

It is possible to demo the Fathom F-112 but that would mean a 800 mile round trip to do this

They both seem to have a good following and so far I haven't seen any negative comments on them

Has anyone demoed both these subs and if so what is your opinion

Note: I am not interested in any alternatives

Thanks in advance


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Hi Lesmor, the JL Subs are very good indeed but they have been around for quite some time now and I used to talk regularly to the Sound Doctor to whom I was going to import an Fathom F113 many years ago now, he used to work for Ken and when M&K closed it's doors he set up his own business and started distributing JL Audio subs and other Sound Engineering type work.

My take on the 2 subs is that the KK DXD12012 is going to offer far more value for money in the long run let alone sound quality as the engineering that has gone into these subs is stunning and the bass on offer is Immense and will crush the 2 MX350's that you have now.

The JL Audio is good but expensive and you would need to be looking at least the F113 to be even close to performance of the DXD's, plus the design is that of at least 5-6 years old already.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

What you also have to remember Lesmor is that Ken Kreisel subs are not all about figures and the highest SPL scores on a chart, his subs are what you can hear in the room that is important and most of all its SQ


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## lesmor (Dec 30, 2009)

recruit said:


> Hi Lesmor, the JL Subs are very good indeed but they have been around for quite some time now and I used to talk regularly to the Sound Doctor to whom I was going to import an Fathom F113 many years ago now, he used to work for Ken and when M&K closed it's doors he set up his own business and started distributing JL Audio subs and other Sound Engineering type work.
> 
> My take on the 2 subs is that the KK DXD12012 is going to offer far more value for money in the long run let alone sound quality as the engineering that has gone into these subs is stunning and the bass on offer is Immense and will crush the 2 MX350's that you have now.
> 
> The JL Audio is good but expensive and you would need to be looking at least the F113 to be even close to performance of the DXD's, plus the design is that of at least 5-6 years old already.


Hi Recruit
Glad you caught the thread ,was hoping you might have some experience of these but didn't want to bring it 
up off thread on the KK owners thread

Not taking anything away from performance but the Fathom being an old design was one of my main concerns 
Also as you rightly point out 2 DXD-2012's inc the stacking kits would be about £1400.00 cheaper

Funny you mention the Sound doctor as I have been reading his white paper on setting up subs, some interesting theory, which for me so far does not quite seem to work, although I also have just bought his test disc which I have still to try.

My preference was for the KK but the Fathom was put forward by a dealer from the AVForum site and the seed was sown, hence my dilemma

Your view of perhaps needing a F-113 to match the DXD-2012 is very interesting because that changes the goal posts and cost difference immensely if that is the case then no contest it has to be the DXD-2012


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

lesmor said:


> My preference was for the KK but the Fathom was put forward by a dealer from the AVForum site and the seed was sown, hence my dilemma


Let me just say this, it was a bad seed that was sown if it came from there, Lol


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

It would be interesting to see what you think of the KK DXD12012 compared to your 2 MX350's, when I changed from 2 x Velodyne DD12's to a single MX5100SF it blew me away with its performance and the DXD12012 is better than the older bigger M&K 5100 design


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## lesmor (Dec 30, 2009)

recruit said:


> It would be interesting to see what you think of the KK DXD12012 compared to your 2 MX350's, when I changed from 2 x Velodyne DD12's to a single MX5100SF it blew me away with its performance and the DXD12012 is better than the older bigger M&K 5100 design


Given your experience of other subs and your DXD 808 I am certainly excited by the prospect of owning the DXD 2012
Unfortunately the market is slow as far as selling on my MX-350's I certainly don't intend selling at a giveaway price and keeping them and mixing with the KK just wont work unfortunately


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

lesmor said:


> Given your experience of other subs and your DXD 808 I am certainly excited by the prospect of owning the DXD 2012
> Unfortunately the market is slow as far as selling on my MX-350's I certainly don't intend selling at a giveaway price and keeping them and mixing with the KK just wont work unfortunately


No, your absolutely right, you do not want to be selling the subs at silly prices which AVForum members seem to expect if you choose to sell the subs on there forum, but there are other ways of selling and you may get the prices that you want for them, patience is the key


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## lesmor (Dec 30, 2009)

recruit said:


> No, your absolutely right, you do not want to be selling the subs at silly prices which AVForum members seem to expect if you choose to sell the subs on there forum, but there are other ways of selling and you may get the prices that you want for them, patience is the key


Well I suppose EBay is the obvious place but any suggestions would be appreciated


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

As I said it depends how patient you are, but you can use many other forms of selling, Hifi for sale is one, Gum Tree, Hifi Choice do a classifieds, and also other Hifi forums are much better sources for selling.


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## lesmor (Dec 30, 2009)

recruit said:


> As I said it depends how patient you are, but you can use many other forms of selling, Hifi for sale is one, Gum Tree, Hifi Choice do a classifieds, and also other Hifi forums are much better sources for selling.


Thanks for that recruit appreciated


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

lesmor said:


> Thanks for that recruit appreciated


Lesmor I was reading some of your comments on AVForums and I can assure you this, Ken Kreisel does not do things by halves, he does it properly and if the brackets you were getting are designed specifically to do one job, then they would be the finest and rigorously tested !

But at the end of the day you need to be happy, and by all means you can choose what ever sub manufacturer you want, I know from the years of having subs that Ken is the only man that really knows what I need for my audio nirvana and am happy to recommend him without hesitation because I will always get the way he reproduces bass via his subs :T


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## lesmor (Dec 30, 2009)

recruit said:


> Lesmor I was reading some of your comments on AVForums and I can assure you this, Ken Kreisel does not do things by halves, he does it properly and if the brackets you were getting are designed specifically to do one job, then they would be the finest and rigorously tested !
> 
> But at the end of the day you need to be happy, and by all means you can choose what ever sub manufacturer you want, I know from the years of having subs that Ken is the only man that really knows what I need for my audio nirvana and am happy to recommend him without hesitation because I will always get the way he reproduces bass via his subs :T


Hi Recruit
Disappointing that comments made on a UK website has to travel across the Atlantic to another unrelated Forum thread

No one admires Ken Kreisel and his products more than I do, I did a lot of research before I purchased my existing kit
I would not have bought what is now arguably, mis-sold rip off copies of 3 X S-150's 2 X SS-150's and 2 x MX-350's under the MK Sound banner which were advertised as products designed by Ken and used in Mastering studios world wide if I didn't.

You have said previously you can't understand why anyone would buy these but at the time there was no alternative as Ken had stopped production and foolishly I believed what I had bought was of the same design as originals

For the record my post in AVForums was in response to an owner having to improvise a top plate to close off an inverted DXD-2012, I was agreeing that I was not aware that when inverted the bottom of the sub was open ( which would be the same as my MX-350 if inverted) 

There is no option on LSound to purchase a proper top plate, but my remark about the cost of 59 EURO (78.00 USD) for a DUO stacking kit being excessive caused some to be offended
The respondent thought that spending the near 5000.00 EURO (6590.00 USD) for two subs they should be free, which I disagreed with, if you can afford the subs you can afford the brackets but 25.00 EURO would be a more acceptable price.
In usual AVForum style things became personal with stupid remarks re- using blu-tack etc
I closed by saying I would never consider stacking without buying the proper stacking kit

I am entitled to give an opinion even though others might disagree, it doesn't detract from the reputation of Ken and the desirability of his products.
I am sure the price being charged for the DUO stacking kit reflects the R&D in the design of the brackets
Regards
Andy


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

Hi Andy,

Unfortunately the WWW makes the world a whole lot smaller than it used to be and forums are just a way for people to voice opinions of products, it can also be a very useful place with lots of valuable information that can be shared quickly and affectively but there is also in the same token a lot of rubbish that does get posted as you have experienced, I can assure you do not worry about what is being said you have every right to voice your own opinion just like anybody else does and hopefully the right people can answer your questions and help you make the right decision about said products.

Cheers

John


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## richmag (Jan 17, 2012)

lesmor said:


> Hi Recruit Disappointing that comments made on a UK website has to travel across the Atlantic to another unrelated Forum thread No one admires Ken Kreisel and his products more than I do, I did a lot of research before I purchased my existing kit I would not have bought what is now arguably, mis-sold rip off copies of 3 X S-150's 2 X SS-150's and 2 x MX-350's under the MK Sound banner which were advertised as products designed by Ken and used in Mastering studios world wide if I didn't. You have said previously you can't understand why anyone would buy these but at the time there was no alternative as Ken had stopped production and foolishly I believed what I had bought was of the same design as originals.
> 
> Is this what you really think?


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## lesmor (Dec 30, 2009)

richmag;651326
Is this what you really think?[/QUOTE said:


> I think that MKSound products should have had the decency to be judged on there own merit instead of Plagiarising the life work of Ken Kreisel
> 
> All MKSound marketing uses comments and opinions about M&K products which are of an entirely different design
> All text and description and manuals of MKSound speakers are cut and paste from M&K speakers literature.
> ...


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## richmag (Jan 17, 2012)

I except that you are entitled to your opinion. 
Yes the new MK Sound offerings are fantastic and an improvement on the originals. 

MK Sound bought the rights to M&K, including historical rights. In effect they took over the company. 

Its no different,as I have said before, Ford now own Jaguar but they still advertise Jaguars history from day one and make Jaguars and have improved them no end. 

MK Sound are not an imitation. They bought ALL the rights, continued to manufacture and improve upon the original products. 

They are legally allowed to. 

Ken's new offerings are superb, I have heard them. I would be happy to own them. They are no better IMO than the MK Sound products. It's horses for courses but I think people need to get their facts right before loading the gun.


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## lesmor (Dec 30, 2009)

> Yes the new MK Sound offerings are fantastic and an improvement on the originals.


So if as you say they are an improvement I take it you owned M&K products and upgraded to MKSound?





> MK Sound are not an imitation. They bought ALL the rights, continued to manufacture and improve upon the original products.
> They are legally allowed to.


I am aware of the history and that they bought the rights

I am also aware that MKSound state in their sales literature that *these* are the speakers used my major studios and were used to mix King Kong ,Star wars pearl Harbour bla blah blah
That is what I object to, as it is false, the Historic M&K were used, not the new MKSound blatant Plagiarism IMHO


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## richmag (Jan 17, 2012)

No I didn't upgrade from the originals but I have heard them many many times. They have only recently changed the mk1's to mk2's so they were virtually the same speakers used in the recording studios with a better fit and finish compared to the originals. Anyways enough of that as it's been thrashed out sooo many times before. If you do go for the 12012's you will have a seriously good pair of subs that will outperform your more than capable 350's.


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