# 2014 Value Electronics Flat Panel Shootout



## lcaillo

Robert will be posting links here for the current event. The other thread will be closed to assure that any new discussion occurs in one thead.


*10th ANNUAL FLAT PANEL SHOOTOUT AT VALUE ELECTRONICS IN SCARSDALE, NY*

Video Experts Along with the Attending Audience Will Evaluate the Newest Flagship HD and 4K Ultra HD Panels To Answer The Question: Which Manufacturer Makes the Best TV?

Schedule:
Day One, Saturday, August 16, 2014 6:00 PM EST
Day Two, Sunday, August 17, 2014 3:00 PM EST

Place:
Value Electronics 35 Popham Rd, Scarsdale, NY 10583

Phone:
Direct 914-723-3344 or 800-789-5050

Want to help us determine who makes the best TV for 2014... Join us on 8/16 or 8/17 and get an exceptional professional video education and meet our panel of experts, headed by Kevin Miller, DeWayne Davis and David Mackenzie. You will also meet and hear our two Keynote special guest speakers, Joe Kane and Dr. Larry Weber. 

To attend in person email Robert Zohn: [email protected] and put in the subject line, 2014 TV Shootout Request.

Can't attend in person, watch the event on our live on our dedicated Livestream channel. 


The Online live feed will be broadcast in HD and will allow viewers to submit questions which will be moderated by our staff a/v techs and select questions will be read out loud for our panel of experts to answer in realtime.

TVs included in our Tenth annual TV Shootout, Saturday, August 16th and Sunday August 17th, 2014. Email us for an application to attend in person. Live webcast in HD is open to everyone worldwide.

4K 2160p models:

Samsung S9 Direct Lit LCD/LED w/local dimming 105" UN105S9W 

Samsung UN78HU9000 78" Edge lit local dimming

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=610529#ixzz3AZZHSU8i
​


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks Leonard. Here's the link to our moderated live webcast that begins at 6PM EST today, August 16th.

Hope many of Home Theater Shack members and visitors will watch on-line.

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/632436

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Fixed it and got it working


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## CHASLS2

Hope we see a OLED in action.


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## JimShaw

CHASLS2 said:


> Hope we see a OLED in action.


LG

55EC9300 curved panel OLED


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## CHASLS2

I better grab the popcorn and sit back. Hope DNice is there also.


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## JimShaw

CHASLS2 said:


> I better grab the popcorn and sit back. Hope DNice is there also.


From post #1

*
Want to help us determine who makes the best TV for 2014... Join us on 8/16 or 8/17 and get an exceptional professional video education and meet our panel of experts, headed by Kevin Miller, DeWayne Davis and David Mackenzie. You will also meet and hear our two Keynote special guest speakers, Joe Kane and Dr. Larry Weber. 

*


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## CHASLS2

JimShaw said:


> From post #1
> 
> *
> Want to help us determine who makes the best TV for 2014... Join us on 8/16 or 8/17 and get an exceptional professional video education and meet our panel of experts, headed by Kevin Miller, DeWayne Davis and David Mackenzie. You will also meet and hear our two Keynote special guest speakers, Joe Kane and Dr. Larry Weber.
> 
> *


I will be watching.


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## CHASLS2

Is there anyway to see the sshow without being forced to join facebook? It blocks the whole screen.


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## mechman

It's up and live now. :T


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## JimShaw

CHASLS2 said:


> Is there anyway to see the sshow without being forced to join facebook? It blocks the whole screen.


If you have a Roku, do as I am doing. Run it through Roku to the TV and I am not on Facebook


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## buzzard767

Almost time to start.....

Should be a big show.










J/K - This is how Im really doing it, piped into a Samsung LCD F8000









My puppy wouldn't miss it either.


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## B- one

I dare not watch the wife may dispose of me! The F-8500 is running strong so I can live with that for now


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## buzzard767

B- one said:


> I dare not watch the wife may dispose of me! The F-8500 is running strong so I can live with that for now


Maybe you need to goto WifeExchange.whatever

Mine just delivered....


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## B- one

buzzard767 said:


> Maybe you need to goto WifeExchange.whatever Mine just delivered....


Looks tasty!


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## buzzard767

B- one said:


> Looks tasty!


It_________ was.


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## mechman

Nice Buzz! I have to watch on break at work on a laptop. :crying: If I wasn't working, I'd probably be there.


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## buzzard767

mechman said:


> Nice Buzz! I have to watch on break at work on a laptop. :crying: If I wasn't working, I'd probably be there.


You missed it. My daughter from Eagan could have brought you over as she's here this weekend. C'mon over tomorrow - free beer then. lololol


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## JimShaw

Robert

_Excellent show_

Enjoyed every minute

Looking forward to hear Dr. Weber tomorrow



m


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## buzzard767

For VE: You need two mics. First, an area mic, live at all times and don't have it too close to any particular individuals. Secondly, the main mic, spring loaded for audio. Tonight's Shootout was stuffed with comments and a little profanity which was not appreciated, all due to a hot mic. I know, they're calibrators, not TV personalities, but....


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## mechman

buzzard767 said:


> You missed it. My daughter from Eagan could have brought you over as she's here this weekend. C'mon over tomorrow - free beer then. lololol


Don't tempt me Buzz!


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## buzzard767

mechman said:


> Don't tempt me Buzz!


Any time. We've talked about this before but I'd be happy to give you a free calibration next time I'm in the MSP area. My granddaughter demands that I be there often. 

Edit: I don't calibrate to put food on the table....


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## mechman

When you come over here let me know. I don't need the calibration (I've got all the gear) but I'd meet you for a beer any day. :T


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## buzzard767

What is the web url for the Sunday Shootout?


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## davidjschenk

Hi buzzard,

Same as yesterday's, on Livestream, IIRC.

Yours,

David

P.S.: We should be going live momentarily.

P.P.S.:: If anyone has questions or comments, I'm here to field them and pass them on to the presenters and calibrators.


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## buzzard767

David,

All I'm getting is yesterday's info. ????

Buzz


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## davidjschenk

buzzard767 said:


> David,
> 
> All I'm getting is yesterday's info. ????
> 
> Buzz


Hi Buzz,

We're not live yet, so it's just feeding you yesterday's news.

Verrry soon...

-David


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## buzzard767

Thank you. Much appreciated.


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## davidjschenk

We're up now.


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## davidjschenk

Annnnnnyyyyyy moment now, we might officially begin....

(twiddles thumbs)

-David


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## davidjschenk

Here we go.


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## mechman

I'm not getting the feed...


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## davidjschenk

mechman said:


> I'm not getting the feed...


On Livestream??

UPDATE: Yeah, it went *clunk*. They're bringing it back up.


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## mechman

Had to reload. It's working now. :T


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## buzzard767

I never should have bitched about Kevin's hot mic yesterday. I think they tried to fix it and wound up with a streaming mess.


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## davidjschenk

buzzard767 said:


> I never should have mooed about Kevin's hot mic yesterday. I think they tried to fix it and wound up with a streaming mess.


Can you not hear them? If it's too quiet, let me know.


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## buzzard767

They had multiple audio signals and we couldn't understand a word. It's fixed now.


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## davidjschenk

Oops...me battery is going. I might have to power down for a bit.

-David


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## lcaillo

The presentation by Joe Kane was very helpful in better understanding how to contextualize developments in image capture, distribution, and display. As always, he is thinking ahead of the market and hopefully the industry, in general, is starting to get what he is saying. From my experience, it seems more so now than ever in the past, based on what I hear from many angles, film prodcutions, broadcast, consumer, etc.

I highly recommend watching it once the video is available.


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## lcaillo

Thanks, also, to Robert for the kind words and love for the forums, and to Kevin Miller and everyone else who puts so much work into this event. I can't wait for the results and comments from those attending.


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## mechman

The avs people in chat are extremely annoying!

EDIT: I shouldn't generalize like this. I do know some of the people in there from avs but I am generalizing. I do apologize to the avs people in chat who are not annoying. I think that this is a function that could, and should, be shut off in the future.


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## JimShaw

Really liked watching the 2014 Shoot-Out

Robert has spent a ton of money to bring this to us each year. I hope he gets a lot of sales for all of his effort.


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## buzzard767

Thanks for the audio fix, Robert. It was much better than ever before.


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## davidjschenk

Okay, I _just_ got home and am completely wiped out, but I have a ton to say about this latest shootout, so I'll start posting on it tomorrow. For now I'll just give my most general take-away from the event: the flat panel TV industry is in the throes of a transition/upheaval for which it was not adequately prepared, and the short-term revenue they need in order to make that transition smoothly ain't comin' in. They don't know what to do.

G'night,

David


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## tele1962

Thanks to Robert and all the gang for what was a great event.:T:clap:


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## mechman

davidjschenk said:


> Okay, I _just_ got home and am completely wiped out, but I have a ton to say about this latest shootout, so I'll start posting on it tomorrow. For now I'll just give my most general take-away from the event: the flat panel TV industry is in the throes of a transition/upheaval for which it was not adequately prepared, and the short-term revenue they need in order to make that transition smoothly ain't comin' in. They don't know what to do.
> 
> G'night,
> 
> David


Can't wait to hear more from you about this David! :T


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## NYPete

I was at the shootout, and want to thank Robert and his family for once again exhibiting their terrific hospitality and doing a great job making everyone feel welcome, and for performing an important service to the entire industry and hobby. Also thank you to the calibrators for all their work setting these TVs up all week for this event. Lots of great information and conversations, both formally in the presentations and in side conversations all throughout the event.

I have many impressions and thoughts, but for now I will give a couple overriding impressions. 

Despite some shortcomings, it is clear to me that the plasma (still) and the OLEDs are in a whole different class as far as realized and potential picture quality goes compared to the LCDs. 

Putting the Samsung plasma aside, the LG OLED is a terrific buy and a steal if you need a TV in that size range in the next few months. I am excited to see their flat OLEDS, and 4K OLEDS coming out in the remainder of the year. 

Overall, I was disappointed with the UHD LCDs. I was hopeful that they would be much better. In a bright room, they can deliver some excellent pictures, but in the dark they are still nowhere near the OLEDs and plasma. The Sony 85X950B had the best black levels of the LCDs, but pretty significant blooming which hurts the good black levels on film scenes involving lots of dark content such as the Harry Potter Deathly Hallows scene. Of course, if you are looking for a real big TV near or over 80 inches, LCD is what you are getting, and there is something to be said for size if you can fit it and can afford it. Just here in this competition, we are concerned with performance regardless of price or size (reasonably).

On most curved TVs, the curve is subtle and kind of a gimmick, but on the 105" Samsung, it is significant and does add a feeling of immersion. Of course, you have to sit close and only 1 or 2 people can be in the middle, but it was kind of cool on a TV that big. I don't like that everything has to be scaled on this TV because of the unique shape. I'm not even sure this TV should have been in the competition. I understand that the shootout has always been for best TV not taking price into account, but even aside from price, even the Samsung guy admits this TV is not in their "consumer" line and is more of a special project. In the shootout it was over on the side and seemingly somewhat ignored by many, and that was exacerbated by the fact that everything was scaled and test patterns and real material was partially cutoff on this screen, and it seemed to have the hardest time hanging onto the HDMI handshake so had no signal more often than the others.

The Samsung plasma was disadvantaged by being up so high, but this really only affects people standing in the front or sitting in the front row. By the second row back, I don't think this was much of an issue and I expect it to do very well in the scoring.

I will admit that I will be surprised if the two OLEDs and the plasma don't finish in the top three in the shootout, unless people gave the LCDs points just for being large, which should be put aside just as price should be put aside for judging.


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## davidjschenk

Hi everyone,

I've had _some_ sleep and I'm greedily shlurping my Peet's New Guinea Highland coffee, so I'm almost human now. Accordingly, let's get into it (further disclaimer: I have several very busy work days in front of me, so I quite doubt that I'll be able to post everything by the end of today):


First off, the whole weekend was a gas. Hanging out with the Zohn family again was, as always, an absolute joy. It did make me feel like an "old guy" to see that Katie, their youngest daughter, is starting her final year of college. I remember her from when she was just fifteen, and that feels to me like only a short time ago. So yeah--I'm gettin' long in the tooth. The Zohn house was a madhouse of activity, as they had me crashing in the basement, David MacKenzie (sp?) sleeping in a guest room, furniture from the store stored in the house during the shootout, and people working at the shootout coming and going all the time. It was wonderful.

*Saturday*
The Saturday event was a real eye-opener for me with Joe Kane's presentation; I learned an enormous amount from him (as always), and I also learned a great deal from sitting down and talking with one of the Sony tech guys, an altogether charming gentleman named Pablo, who is extremely sharp, informed, and fully committed to the videophiles' collective dream of the perfect flat panel TV. The manufacturers' presentations were 90% marketing ("sales-speak," if I may adapt a term from 1984), but that was expected. The calibrators' presentations were much more informative, but boy, did they struggle to get those TVs to behave. The panels on the wall were switching on and off like strobe lights at a discotheque the whole night, and that, I'm told, had everything to do with the move to 2160p/4k resolution on some but not all panels. Saturday saw the whole wall of panels continuously struggling to re-synch; that's what you were seeing with the TVs turning on and off. They fixed that for Sunday by just reverting to 1080p for all the presentations.

From Joe Kane I learned especially that the bit-depth problem has finally become so pressing that the industry cannot continue to deliver real PQ improvements until they honestly address it. Even more urgently, the data pipeline will have to be increased much more dramatically than anyone in the industry has publicly acknowledged.

From Pablo I learned that there _might_ (_might_, mind you) be a way for an upgraded HDMI system to accommodate those greater data demands. In principle, he hypothesized, it should be possible to make HDMI 2.x connections modular in largely the same way that DisplayPort is, thereby enabling full 4k video throughput at a much larger bitrate and without all the curses and burdens of 4:2:0. If that could be made to work, it would have some serious practical advantages:

People are already familiar and comfortable with HDMI; they know how to use it.
By its design HDMI is largely idiot-proof (but I don't know if it would stay that way if it went modular).
All our other home theater equipment already has HDMI compatibility; it shouldn't be necessary to buy a brand new AVR to go with the new UHD TV and media player (but that is pure conjecture on my part).
The industry already has the manufacturing facilities to crank out copious quantities of HDMI cables.

I also learned from him that Sony absolutely, positively has *not* written off OLED. They're not selling such panels yet, but that's because they're persuaded--and I agree with them--that the technology isn't ready yet. It has too many remaining kinks in it, it is still too expensive (assuming one intends to implement it correctly), and the simple truth is, no one in the industry really knows where the market is headed right now. In the coming years I am going to keep a very close eye on Sony, as they have committed themselves to working in the high-end market and delivering what the really fussy people in both audio and video want. The color reproduction on their XBR950 was flatly superior to anything else up on that wall. Samsung and LG need to take a hard lesson from what Sony has done there, or they'll get left behind.

Just from the contents of the wall at Value Electronics I learned that Samsung truly has taken over the flat panel TV market. They own the joint now (though both Vizio and China pose a big, big market threat in the coming years). On Robert and Wendy's wall there was one LG product, two Sonys, and _five_ Samsungs (including last year's plasma way up at the top). Regardless of anything Sony and LG do now, they face a basic problem of numbers.

I also learned this: for years now, plasma technology has been the unmatched PQ king--we all know that. The king is dead, and we all know that, too. But no way can anyone yet add "long live the king." As things stand, neither locally dimmed LCD nor OLED are up to that task. OLED obviously has the potential to do it, but they just aren't there yet. Both the LG and the Samsung OLEDs had color tracking problems, viewing angle problems, white balance/gamma problems, lingering motion resolution issues, and price point struggles. I'll note that LG absolutely kicked the snot out of Samsung on the price point problem: $3500 vs. $9000, same size, same basic panel tech. I'll say much more on this in my Sunday write-up. $3500 is actually a sensible price for a 55" TV. $9k manifestly is not.

Oh, and one general, deeply felt criticism I have of the entire industry: the viewing angle problems have become just absurd now, and those ridiculous curved screens *only ever make it worse**.* The manufacturers' companies are not mine to run, but I strongly encourage them please, please to stop shooting themselves in the foot with such stupid, stupid, breathtakingly stupid marketing ploys, presumably cooked up by overpaid and under-informed Armani-wearing know-it-alls in the marketing departments. Increasingly, I have no respect for what those marketing people do. None. They think we're stupid; they think they can metaphorically jingle their key chains in front of us, and we'll be amused and distracted by that and go buy their frantically hyped junk. They're wrong.

I did not vote on Saturday because the room was much too crowded for me to walk around and get an honest look at each TV from the proper viewing angle. (Seriously--viewing angles should not be presenting such problems on premium TVs!)

Another reason why I say the industry doesn't know what to do in the wake of plasma's death is revealed by the prices on all these TVs. The cheaper ones Samsung and Sony had to offer were, to my mind, prohibitively expensive. The top-of-the-line ones were waayyyyyy off in la-la-land. Samsung actually wanted ~$120,000 for a 105" curved-screen TV that honestly doesn't deliver that great of a picture. In which alternate universe does this make sense??? Sony's XBR950, which was impressive in many ways but also had real flaws in its implementation of local dimming, was ~$35,000 MSRP. Again, which brand of hashish should I smoke in order to start thinking that that's a cost the burden of which I could reasonably, rationally assume?? It'll have to be really good hash, man. Premo.

So how did they get into this pickle? On Sunday I learned from an anonymous source that China pressured all the companies into selling panels with the increased screen resolution because the higher-resolution panels are cheap and easy to manufacture, so in theory it ought to goose sales margins in the short term. So now that stuff is getting marketed as "UHD" or "4k" (but see Joe Kane's presentation on why quadrupling the resolution alone actually does little for the perceptible picture quality (unless you nose is against the screen)). But in order to justify that increased resolution, manufacturers had no choice but to move to much, much larger screen sizes, which gets very expensive very quickly. And so now here they are sending to market eighty-odd inch TVs priced well over what I paid for my car. Good luck, fellas--glad I'm not in your position this year...​

So that's it for my Saturday write-up. Sunday's stuff will be along in due time.

-David


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## davidjschenk

One quick add-on for the Saturday segment: NYPete is absolutely right about the LCDs vs the OLEDs and plasma. Except for the XBR950, no LCD could compete, and the XBR's local dimming flaws were too extreme for it to stay in the race, either (though I think Sony easily ought to be able to fix that for their next model).

Yours,

David


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## NYPete

David, it was good to see you again at the shootout Saturday.

On the price issue, after the shootout I had a hard time in my mind grasping the wildly different prices, and the humongous prices of some of these TVs. I mean Pioneer had to stop selling Kuros because people wouldn't pay $5000 for a TV anymore, but now they will pay $10,000 or $25,000? Not to mention the Samsung 105" at $120,000. The TV sizes are bigger than the Kuros, but come on.

To help myself I tried to see how the manufacturers are pricing the TVs normalizing the size to a certain extent. I looked up how much each of the LCDs is being sold for in 65 inch size, which seems like a nice normal big size TV to me, and common to almost every line of TVs. Maybe this info is useful so I'll post it. I just did a quick online search and mostly relied on Amazon as a good barometer of the price you could buy these TVs for today in the US. They might be cheaper or more expensive at other retailers, but this is for a ballpark idea.

Samsung UN65HU9000 is going for $4300 ($5000 MSRP)
Samsung UN65HU8550 $3000 ($4000 MSRP)
Sony XBR-65X900B $4000 ($5000 MSRP)
Sony XBR-65X950B $8000 ($8000 MSRP)

The Samsung PN64F8500 is going for $3100 ($4400 MSRP).

The LG 55EC9300 at the shootout is $3500 ($4000 MSRP). This OLED is 10 inches smaller than the 65 inch models above.

Reports are that the LG 65EC9700 4K UHD OLED will go for $7000 ($9000 MSRP).

Now there are problems here because we now know on the Sony X900B line, the 79" has an IPS panel and the 65" has a VA panel so they will look quite different. Also the Samsung UN85HU8550 is direct lit while the smaller sizes are edge lit, so you can't judge the 65" picture quality based on the 85" TV. But it at least in my mind helps me see where the manufacturers are pricing these TVs as a model line and against the competition.


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## Andre

Plasma dead? Na I bet its just moved markets, someone will build a 1080p reminiscent of a Panasonic Kuro in a small boutique style high end way and there will be a new genera the same as Vinyl vs Digital.

Long live the King


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## davidjschenk

Hi NYPete,

Absolutely, all you say is right, true, and wise; I've nothing to contest there. The issue, though, is that at the smaller sizes it becomes impossible to rationally justify moving from 1080p to 4k. Suppose I get me a top-of-the-line 65" UHDTV from any of these guys. Where do I put my couch?

You see my worry?

Yours,

David


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## mechman

David and NYPete,

Thank you both for your impressions from the Shootout! I couldn't draw too many conclusions regarding the panels via the livestream feed so it's good to hear yours. I think that Joe Kane's presentations were probably the best of the show.

Nice job Robert and family!! And thank you!!


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## Andre

davidjschenk said:


> Hi NYPete,
> 
> Absolutely, all you say is right, true, and wise; I've nothing to contest there. The issue, though, is that at the smaller sizes it becomes impossible to rationally justify moving from 1080p to 4k. Suppose I get me a top-of-the-line 65" UHDTV from any of these guys. Where do I put my couch?
> 
> You see my worry?
> 
> Yours,
> 
> David


If you buy a top of the line TV, you may have to sell your couch which will solve you problem


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## davidjschenk

Andre said:


> If you buy a top of the line TV, you may have to sell your couch which will solve you problem


Heheheheheheheh...

"Couch"?? House.

And yeah, that'd solve a lot of problems, but it'd generate a few new ones.

Yours,

David


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## Andre

davidjschenk said:


> but it'd generate a few new ones


As long as one is not your wife renting out your side of the bed to pay for it your golden :T


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## ConnecTED

mechman said:


> David and NYPete,
> 
> Thank you both for your impressions from the Shootout! I couldn't draw too many conclusions regarding the panels via the livestream feed so it's good to hear yours. I think that Joe Kane's presentations were probably the best of the show.
> 
> Nice job Robert and family!! And thank you!!


Dr. Weber, it was so nice listening to him, he talked immediatelly about the 8K Plasma, looooool, for introduction.


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## JimShaw

Help me remember:

What was it about the LG OLED that was causing some problems?



m


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## davidjschenk

WARNING: what is to follow is BIG, so it'll likely require two posts.

-David


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## davidjschenk

Hi again everyone,

Okay, so what about Sunday, right? Sunday was awesome. I was a little sleep-deprived (remember the house was both crowded and busy), but I got to the store nice and early, got my computer set up, got one of the comfy theater chairs to sit in, and generally had a nice time of it. The room was not quite as crowded as on Saturday, which also helped, and both Value Electronics and the various presenters had the kinks out of their presentations, so everything went a lot more smoothly.

Before I forget: thanks more than I can say to Robert, Wendy, Jeff, Lianne, and Katie Zohn all of Value Electronics for putting this whole thing together, for putting me up, for putting up with me, and for making the weekend one of the most enjoyable I've had in a long time. Thanks in abundance to each and every old friend I got to see there and each new one made; I've been out of the loop for way too long, and I so missed this beautiful hobby of ours. Thanks in equal abundance to the manufacturers for working hard to step up to the plate and deliver the best TVs they judged possible in such an uncertain and roiling market. Very special thanks to the Sony and Samsung reps who where willing to sit down with me one-on-one, answer my questions so clearly and honestly, and even listen to my obviously half-informed attempts at advice for future improvement. I remain convinced that Sony really can make something happen here with their local dimming technology if they just make sure they use _fast_ LEDs and make sure those LEDs never turn all the way off. That along with some software improvements in smoothing the transitions between various zones could punch the ball right through the goal posts. Oh--and Kevin Miller is right on: *please*, Sony: give calibrators full and fully functioning CMS controls and blue-only, red-only, and green-only screen capabilities. For the amount of money on offer, all these things are owed.

*Sunday*
People started showing up a little after two, and by 3:00 the place was hopping. Value Electronics got the video and audio feeds all straightened out by 3:30, and we were collectively off to the races again. Joe Kane gave his presentation again, but he included further information that was not in the Saturday talk, so you can bet I paid close attention to everything he said. His example from photography to show why a high bitrate matters was, IMO, inspired. Dr. Weber's presentation was fantastic, and it made very clear why and how each of the three display technologies encounters hurdles and why some such hurdles are surmountable while others are not. My biggest take-away from his talk, though he never mentioned this, is the extent to which LG's OLED TV this year is able to do what it does by including some already-known strategies from LED-backlit LCD technology, a technology in which LG has been successful for a long time now. Samsung, by contrast, really tried to do something new with their OLED, and I admire what they've done very much, but I'm dead certain the price difference will kill them. Given the bad economy both globally and in the U.S., manufacturers simply must control costs, and the white OLEDs pushed through a screen of color filters do that much better than three distinct colors of OLEDs pumping the light out emissively. It's that simple. Mainstream America no longer has that 90s-style delusion of being wealthy when we're not, so you can't sell us stuff as if we were. I think LG read the market a lot better than everyone else this year. They're even slated to release a much larger 4k version of this OLED TV in a few months, and that's the one that Ken Ross was gunning for yesterday. Not to steal my own thunder for the paragraphs below, but I agree with him. Were I buying this year and I _had to_ buy something specifically from the wall other than the F8500 plasma, I'd grab that LG and not look back for a moment.

The manufacturers' presentations were largely the same, though a bit more informative, actually. The calibrators, I'm happy to report, streamlined their presentations considerably and really did a stand-up job yesterday. The actual audience test portion was a lot of fun and very informative, though it was hard to move around much with the place so crowded. I almost think for next year Robert & co. should have the audience queue up in some way and then walk clockwise (or whatever) around the room, thereby enabling every participant to get some proper quality time with each panel. After that it could become a free-for-all where folks just go where they wish and focus on whichever TVs most interest them. This way the room traffic could be rendered much more efficient.

Both before and during the test both Ken Ross and I were looking closely at the two OLEDs and I was looking hard at the XBR950, too (I don't remember if Ken had his eye on that one or not). The first and biggest thing we noticed is that the LG OLED did a much better job of handling off-axis viewing. When you go even just a little bit off axis on the Samsung OLED, the color balance and the gamma both get seriously borked. I mean, the gray ramps they had up there looked red and far from even in their transition from dark to bright. But as soon as we got both vertically and horizontally on axis, all that went away and Samsung's ramps actually were better than LG's. Really, though--you had to be dead center, which I should think is an obvious problem for anyone interested in buying an OLED this year. IIRC, one of the big selling points of OLED was supposed to be to absence of viewing angle problems, wasn't it? Well, that's not what we have with either of the ones on offer. LG's TV has definite viewing angle limitations, too, but they're nowhere near as extreme as Samsung's. For that reason alone I determined that, were I buying this year, I'd much prefer the LG OLED over Samsung's (regardless of price). The LG did have a very annoying problem to it, though: it had some of the most aggressive ABL I've ever seen. Seriously, it made recent plasma ABL that I've seen look half-hearted by comparison. It was sufficiently visually annoying that I resolved to ask them about it if Ken didn't (but he did). Both OLEDs handled black levels and perceived color saturation admirably, of course; here even the F8500 plasma could not hope to keep up. But on color tracking neither of them did so well, and the LG in particular went way off target in the color saturation charts. In real world content these flaws did not jump out at us immediately, but they were evident and sometimes very annoying. The industry in general, with the notable and admirable exception of Sony, has not paid anything approaching the attention to color accuracy that they have to black levels/contrast ratios, and I say that needs to change, pronto. If they want this kind of money from people, they owe their customers color reproduction technology that is not still derived from what they were using back in the 20th century. As best I can tell, there is just no defensible reason for color tracking to be as embarrassingly weak as it is. Like I said, the one exception to this is Sony, who has done strong work here for a long time, and that was evident yesterday. Sony allowed calibrators NO CMS controls of any kind on the XBR950 and only two-point grayscale controls. Armed only with that, the calibrators nonetheless got that thing to deliver the best, most accurate color I saw on any TV on the wall, and even the gamma was crazy near perfect. I mean, really--what excuse do Samsung and LG have for falling down so badly on this when they provide full CMS controls, blue-only screen capabilities, and TWENTY-POINT grayscale controls??? And even with all of that, the Sony still had better colors??? Look, that's just wrong. I say both LG and Samsung need to hit the drawing board on this.

But lest anyone think I have a hard-on for the XBR, I still say both OLEDs ended up delivering a much better picture, and black levels were NOT the reason why. The problem was the flawed implementation of local dimming on the Sony. I don't know if it was due to a decision by the calibrators or due to the way the panel works, but the 950 had its local dimming function set so that on a black screen the LEDs would shut all the way off, which I have said for years is just a disastrously bad idea. You don't just get uncorrectable blooming from that; you also get what I call "ghost images" from the relatively slow LEDs failing to keep up with motion-driven transitions in the LCDs. You watch the Star Destroyer first approach you in the Empire Strikes Back; There's a moon behind it. As that moon moves down the screen, the LEDs will be too slow in turning off, so you'll see a "ghost" of that moon chasing after the moon the LCDs show you. Anyone with a locally dimmed TV that turns LEDs completely off can get a copy of the DVD (or BluRay--I used a DVD) and test this. I tested it for almost a month before making my determination that the problem is real, that the slow LEDs are the culprits, and that stopping them from turning completely off is the only fix that really works. This strategy has the additional very considerable benefits of getting rid of all floating black level issues (assuming the TV has a reasonable number of discrete zones), getting rid of information loss ("black crush") in dark areas of the picture, and allowing manufacturers to get away with offering local dimming without using 300+ zones in order to make the picture acceptable. MY 46" UNB8500 has only 140 zones, and I never, ever have any of these problems, and stopping the LEDs from turning all the way off is the reason why. Sharp, I was delighted to see, apparently listened to all my screaming into the void of cyberspace and designed their Elites so the LEDs get very dark, but never turn fully off. And theirs are the best locally dimmed TVs out there. Their color problems are well known and very regrettable, but their implementation of local dimming technology has no peers. Sony, Samsung, LG, I beg you: learn from Sharp if you want to get this right. And while you're at it, study what they did with viewing angles, because they really nailed that one, too.

One last point on this before I forget it: Robert has publicly credited me with inventing the zone-count test. Strictly speaking, I don't think that's true. Wayyyyyyy back when, I bought one of the very first Samsung 81F locally dimmed TVs offered in the U.S. It had just 64 zones and a host of associated problems. (I have no idea what Vizio thinks it is doing trying to sell a "locally dimmed" TV with EIGHT zones and even trying to get that thing into the shootout!) I was, at the time, just beginning to learn to calibrate, and AVS was where I did it (back then they had much better troll control). It was between a bunch of us that we came up with the strategy of maxing out brightness, going into Dynamic mode, using a perfectly black desktop image from our computers, and then slowly dragging the white mouse across the screen to count the zones as they lit up and darkened in response to the mouse moving across them. Accordingly, I cannot take all the credit for inventing that test; I was part of its invention, but so were several other AVS members, and IIRC it was one of them, not I, who first made the suggestion. On the other hand, I can and do take full credit for figuring out that stopping the LEDs from shutting all the way off was the only way to effectively minimize the otherwise-troubling artifacts of local dimming. No one else came up with that one; that's my original contribution, and I stand by it. It took me a very long time--weeks and weeks of amateur calibration work--to figure it out, but it totally, totally works. Do you get perfect 0 black levels? No. Do I care? No. Because you still do get black levels that beat even the 9G and 9.5G Kuros and the VTs. Show me any other TV short of OLED that can make such a boast. And all the while, you quite get rid of these ridicuously annoying floating black levels (both locally and globally across the screen), black crush, LED ghosts, and all the rest. It's worth it, and the price paid in black levels is absurdly small. Using my C5 meter profiled to my i1Pro in a perfectly dark room, I got consistently measured MLLs of 0.00x fL and below. I actually often can get it so dark with the help of my iScan Duo that even the profiled Chroma 5 can't read any light, though I can just see it in a perfectly dark room. Anyone who finds those black levels insufficient in an LCD TV has gone monomaniacal and needs to just sell the thing and get an OLED, because even plasma will never make you happy, man.

So Samsung, LG, and especially Sony, I hope you guys are reading this. If so, please perform the tests yourselves and see what I'm talking about; get a Sharp Elite and see how it handles dark and mixed scenes. If need be, find yourselves an old Samsung UNB8500 like mine and test it. The Elites wisely won't let you shut the LEDs completely off, but the UNB8500s will, so they're useful for comparing the different results. If ever you have any, any questions at all about this stuff, please, please, please PM me either at highdefjunkies (my internet home) or at hometheatershack (my internet "second home," if you will). I would love to answer any and all questions the manufacturers' representatives and engineers may have for me and just to bounce ideas around for how to optimize it. I firmly believe that if local dimming is going to work, this is the way to make it work, and also this is the only way to make it economical, because you can get away with having just 200-ish zones on a 1080p screen (for 4k, the number does climb, I'm sure).

At last I come to my final paragraph (may all the angels of Heaven be praised with great praise). So which TV did I vote for as the winner last night? The plasma. Sorry LG and Samsung, but you guys have got to get both color reproduction and viewing angles firmly under control (and the ABL for LG).  Then and only then will your OLEDs get the nod from me. On motion resolution, I say both companies also have work to do, but not nearly as much. *COLOR ACCURACY* and *VIEWING ANGLES*; fix them or forever come in second and third at best in my book. So between all the TVs _from this year_ who gets my vote? LG hands down. The Samsung OLED was awesome on so many points, but its viewing angle problem totally killed it for me. Add the insane price difference to the mix and I say I'd have to be on heavy unprescribed meds to look at anything other than the LG OLED this year. After the two OLEDs the only serious new-this-year competitor to my mind was the XBR950, warts and all. Really, though, that F8500 plasma was still tops. Its viewing angles were superior, it wasn't curved (just dumb), and its colors were right there. All the other LCDs were, well, forgettable.

Yours,

David

Hah! Got 'er in just one post. So there you have it, folks.


----------



## davidjschenk

JimShaw said:


> Help me remember:
> 
> What was it about the LG OLED that was causing some problems?
> 
> 
> 
> m


Hi Jim,

Well, none that were enough to kill it, in my opinion, but it had clear issues with color accuracy and even the gamma curve (at least as D-Nice calibrated it, and he did say it was a trade-off), plus the ABL thing annoyed me plenty.

Yours,

David


----------



## ConnecTED

...


----------



## ConnecTED

''Congratulations to all the TVs participating in the evaluation event for their great technological advancements. This year was a close competition with many excellent contenders. We had a variety of flagship displays, both curved and flat panels, 1080p and 4K Ultra HD, as well as Plasma, LED, and OLED technologies.

Here are the results of the voting on the different attributes of picture quality and performance. OLEDs infinite black levels and contrast ratio won the attention of videophiles and enthusiasts. The King of TV for 2014 is LG's 55EC9300 OLED!''

From Value Electronics Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/ValueElectronics


----------



## NYPete

davidjschenk said:


> Hi NYPete,
> 
> Absolutely, all you say is right, true, and wise; I've nothing to contest there. The issue, though, is that at the smaller sizes it becomes impossible to rationally justify moving from 1080p to 4k. Suppose I get me a top-of-the-line 65" UHDTV from any of these guys. Where do I put my couch?
> 
> You see my worry?
> 
> Yours,
> 
> David


I agree David. 4K at 55" makes no sense to me. At 65", maybe the extra resolution is noticeable but as you say you need be pretty close. So in a real large TV where 4K will make a difference at normal seating distances, for now it is going to be LCD.

But, LG comes out with their 4K 65" OLED in less than a month according to Tim from LG at the shootout. They are scheduled to come out with a 77" 4K OLED by the end of the year. Will they be very expensive - yes. However, in just one single year 55" OLED went from about $14,000 to now a pretty good one (which won the shootout actually) for $3500. I don't think it is crazy to say there will be large screen 4K OLED at pretty reasonable prices (at least compared to the already high prices of the large screen LCDs at the shootout) in very short time.


----------



## davidjschenk

NYPete said:


> I agree David. 4K at 55" makes no sense to me. At 65", maybe the extra resolution is noticeable but as you say you need be pretty close. So in a real large TV where 4K will make a difference at normal seating distances, for now it is going to be LCD.
> 
> But, LG comes out with their 4K 65" OLED in less than a month according to Tim from LG at the shootout. They are scheduled to come out with a 77" 4K OLED by the end of the year. Will they be very expensive - yes. However, in just one single year 55" OLED went from about $14,000 to now a pretty good one (which won the shootout actually) for $3500. I don't think it is crazy to say there will be large screen 4K OLED at pretty reasonable prices (at least compared to the already high prices of the large screen LCDs at the shootout) in very short time.


Hi NYPete,

That's right on.

Actually, I was talking about this with Ken yesterday, and he said the 77"-er is supposed to be just $12k-13k, which is still cheaper than last year's 55"-er. The price drop LG is offering is more than just compelling; it's a shocker. That's why I say LG is the only one that correctly read the market this year. All the other manufacturers seem to be encouraging us to act like profligate millionaires.

$12-13k is more than I have to spend for sure, but I actually can see its justification for a 77" UHD OLED. I mean, let's just mentally compare that to $35,000 for an 85" locally dimmed LCD that, for all its strengths, cannot get its local dimming straight. I know what I'd choose.

Yours,

David


----------



## JimShaw

davidjschenk said:


> Hi Jim,
> 
> Well, none that were enough to kill it, in my opinion, but it had clear issues with color accuracy and even the gamma curve (at least as D-Nice calibrated it, and he did say it was a trade-off), plus the ABL thing annoyed me plenty.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> David


David

Thanks

I just read your final report and was a little discouraged in some way and encouraged in others.

Why discouraged? Because you personally picked my set as the winner (64F8500). This means I will probably keep it one more year vs getting an OLED this year.

Encouraged? Because I was really was considering the LG 77 and you gave me hope that it should be fantastic next time around.

Thanks David for all your hard work and long hours

.


----------



## davidjschenk

JimShaw said:


> David
> 
> Thanks
> 
> I just read your final report and was a little discouraged is some way and encouraged in others.
> 
> Why discouraged? Because you personally picked my set as the winner (64F8500). This means I will probably keep it one more year vs getting an OLED this year.
> 
> Encouraged? Because I was really was considering the LG 77 and you gave me hope that it should be fantastic next time around.
> 
> Thanks David for all your hard work and long hours
> 
> .


Hi Jim,

You're more than welcome, and thanks for the kind words. It actually was the most enjoyable weekend I've had in some time, and I've loved every part of the experience, even the writing.

Yeah, it's a judgment call on the F8500 vs. the 77" OLED, so please don't just go by what I've written. I'm an hysterically color-sensitive, motion-sensitive freak of a videophile who just has weird vision. I doubt many others are like that; certainly, those of us who habitually spend hours upon hours staring at NTSC patterns will see the color flaws, but saner sorts won't. Color irregularities drive me to distraction; my friends and family don't even see them after I point them out.

One thing I can guarantee you about that 77" OLED; it will visually pop at all times in ways that no plasma or LCD ever can. Both OLEDs had that variable in the bag, uncontested.

Please get a look at one of the 77-inchers before deciding, because I'd honestly consider it myself if I had the scratch. Personally I still think holding off is a good move, though; the whole industry is in transition and the technology seems to be in such a state of flux that I think waiting is wise. Also, LG did an awesome job of setting the bar for driving down prices while delivering on performance, so all the other manufacturers will have respond to that or get their lunches eaten. Accordingly, I expect prices to be substantially more aggressive next year.

Yours,

David


----------



## mechman

I find it a bit odd that the calibrators chose the Samsung OLED. :scratch: Huh. :huh:


----------



## davidjschenk

mechman said:


> I find it a bit odd that the calibrators chose the Samsung OLED. :scratch: Huh. :huh:


Hi mechman,

I couldn't tell you. My guess is they didn't factor in viewing angles, but perhaps Robert can coax one or all of them to come on here and elaborate on it themselves. No way would I have walked home with the Samsung, given its viewing angle issues; despite the ABL, despite the color flaws (which really do get to me), I'd have gone for the LG even if its cost were identical to the Samsung's--no contest, no hesitation.

Yours,

David


----------



## NYPete

davidjschenk said:


> Hi mechman,
> 
> I couldn't tell you. My guess is they didn't factor in viewing angles, but perhaps Robert can coax one or all of them to come on here and elaborate on it themselves. No way would I have walked home with the Samsung, given its viewing angle issues; despite the ABL, despite the color flaws (which really do get to me), I'd have gone for the LG even if its cost were identical to the Samsung's--no contest, no hesitation.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> David


The shootout definitely does not factor in viewing angles. That is why Kevin and others are constantly telling people to get up and move around so you can view the LCDs and OLEDs straight on. So I'm sure their conclusion did not include viewing angles. Dead straight on, the two OLEDs are essentially equal in black level and contrast (the numbers bear this out - very close), they both had color issues I thought, and the Samsung had better motion resolution. On the color, the calibrators, especially DNice emphasized the color decoding issue of the LG quite a bit and it must have gotten dinged by them for that reason. I thought the Samsung OLED had some color issues, particularly on red. I haven't seen the calibration reports yet, which would be interesting - I don't think they released them yet.

Pete


----------



## davidjschenk

NYPete said:


> The shootout definitely does not factor in viewing angles. That is why Kevin and others are constantly telling people to get up and move around so you can view the LCDs and OLEDs straight on. So I'm sure their conclusion did not include viewing angles. Dead straight on, the two OLEDs are essentially equal in black level and contrast (the numbers bear this out - very close), they both had color issues I thought, and the Samsung had better motion resolution. On the color, the calibrators, especially DNice emphasized the color decoding issue of the LG quite a bit and it must have gotten dinged by them for that reason. I thought the Samsung OLED had some color issues, particularly on red. I haven't seen the calibration reports yet, which would be interesting - I don't think they released them yet.
> 
> Pete


Hi NYPete,

Ahhh--now that makes perfect sense. Had it not been for the viewing angle problem, I likely would've gone for the Samsung OLED.

Yours,

David


----------



## tele1962

Thanks David for the excellent report of this years Shootout, man I have been saying for years I have to get over there myself but up to now been unable................maybe next year.:justdontknow:


----------



## zibawal

how to get hold of Robert re order for tv


----------



## mechman

Did you try and pm him?


----------



## JimShaw

zibawal said:


> how to get hold of Robert re order for tv


 Call 800-789-5050 or email [email protected]


----------



## ConnecTED

''We have a correction to our early determination on the 2014 King of TV. LG's EC9300 OLED won in the most categories and in the most important categories, however, if all the categories are averaged for each TV, the F8500 comes out slightly higher overall. So this year we are declaring a tie between the LG EC9300 OLED and Samsung F8500 plasma, with the expert calibrators' top pick as the Samsung OLED! Congrats to the excellent Samsung, Sony, and LG displays competing in the event.''

Taken from ValueElectronics Facebook Page


----------



## NYPete

Cnet article on the shootout:

http://www.cnet.com/news/lg-wins-value-electronics-shootout-2014/


----------



## Robert Zohn

Here's Twit.tv's Scott Wilkinson's 1 hr.Podcast with Mark Henninger and me on our 2014 TV Shootout event.

http://youtu.be/-FKLY-ztAic

-Robert


----------



## Tonto

Mechman wrote:



> I find it a bit odd that the calibrators chose the Samsung OLED. Huh.


Is it possible they may have been influenced by the full access to color contols?


----------



## NYPete

I think the Samsung OLED did much better with motion handling than the LG OLED, and was one area that contributed to the experts picking the Samsung.


----------



## JimShaw

NYPete said:


> I think the Samsung OLED did much better with motion handling than the LG OLED, and was one area that contributed to the experts picking the Samsung.


My question is:

Since the LG and all the sets were placed under an extreme motion test, in the real world would anyone actually notice?




m


----------



## mechman

JimShaw said:


> My question is:
> 
> Since the LG and all the sets were placed under an extreme motion test, in the real world would anyone actually notice?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m


By some? Probably. By the majority? Probably not. 

However, I would believe that the majority would clearly see the viewing angle issues. That would be something that just about any consumer could pick up on at the store without any special content. And I think that it would probably be a lot more important to the consumer looking to invest in one of these displays. 

My Sony has issues with motion when running the test discs. Do I notice it when watching actual content? Rarely, if ever. However I notice it's viewing angle problems every time I get up and move about the room. 

Personally, I would place no more weight on motion issues as I would viewing angle issues. And from David's earlier post, it sounded like the viewing angle on the Samsung OLED was bad, the worst I've ever heard of. I have never seen a display that had the gray ramps change to colors off angle. To me, that's a serious issue. :dontknow:


----------



## JimShaw

mechman said:


> By some? Probably. By the majority? Probably not.
> 
> However, I would believe that the majority would clearly see the viewing angle issues. That would be something that just about any consumer could pick up on at the store without any special content. And I think that it would probably be a lot more important to the consumer looking to invest in one of these displays.
> 
> My Sony has issues with motion when running the test discs. Do I notice it when watching actual content? Rarely, if ever. However I notice it's viewing angle problems every time I get up and move about the room.
> 
> Personally, I would place no more weight on motion issues as I would viewing angle issues. And from David's earlier post, it sounded like the viewing angle on the Samsung OLED was bad, the worst I've ever heard of. I have never seen a display that had the gray ramps change to colors off angle. To me, that's a serious issue. :dontknow:



View angle issues would not be a problem for me. My wife and I sit directly in front of the TV,

I am guessing the motion also would not be a problem but I would like to see the LG 65 or 77, put it through a couple test Blus first.


----------



## NYPete

JimShaw said:


> View angle issues would not be a problem for me. My wife and I sit directly in front of the TV,
> 
> I am guessing the motion also would not be a problem but I would like to see the LG 65 or 77, put it through a couple test Blus first.


As mechman says, whether you see the motion issues depends on how sensitive you are to motion blurring, etc. I am generally not super bothered by motion resolution issues, and can live with moderate motion problems more than bad contrast ratio or undersaturated colors. I would need a more extensive test to say whether I would be okay living with the motion on the LG OLED, but my first instinct is no.

Anyway, I can say that at the shootout, on the girl swinging on a rope clip, which I believe is on the Spears and Munsil disk, the motion problems were very evident to me. The rope and to a certain extent the girl's striped shirt broke up, became blurry and had what I would call macroblocking issues on every single swing left or right. To me, the two Sonys and the LG were bad on this clip. All five Samsungs I thought did better with motion, including the Samsung OLED. So this isn't a test pattern, it is an actual video clip, but it is purposely one of the hardest things you might encounter in real material - a girl in a striped shirt swinging on a rope like a pendulum. Moving diagonal lines like crazy! I can't say if it would be evident on more common clips, but it was really easy to see on this clip.


----------



## davidjschenk

NYPete said:


> As mechman says, whether you see the motion issues depends on how sensitive you are to motion blurring, etc. I am generally not super bothered by motion resolution issues, and can live with moderate motion problems more than bad contrast ratio or undersaturated colors. I would need a more extensive test to say whether I would be okay living with the motion on the LG OLED, but my first instinct is no.


NYPete is exactly right; motion resolution issues are only issues insofar as you see them (like with phosphor trails), and it's the kind of thing where some people notice it and some don't. Of those that notice it, some are annoyed and a few aren't. I'm not very sensitive to it myself, but I admit the girl on the swing (which was a total torture test) made all the LCDs and the LG look pretty bad. When watching movie clips, though, I really didn't see much to complain about on the LG.

Yours,

David


----------



## buzzard767

The girl on the rope with the striped shirt is content from the FPD Benchmark Software disc (QVD-1002B). I don't know if this 2008 disc is still available but HERE is a good synopsis of it's content.

I use the rope, swing, and resolution patterns regularly for calibrating.


----------



## mechman

I have that disc Buzz. But I don't recall that particular scene. I'll have to break them out and check it out again.


----------



## buzzard767

It's fairly rare and I don't think it was ever for sale.


----------



## mechman

OK looking at it a bit more closely, that isn't the one that I thought I have. I was thinking of the IDT HQV disc.


----------



## vinnie97

JimShaw said:


> View angle issues would not be a problem for me. My wife and I sit directly in front of the TV,
> 
> I am guessing the motion also would not be a problem but I would like to see the LG 65 or 77, put it through a couple test Blus first.


Switching between a ZT60 and a 9800, the motion is only occasionally noticed to be slightly blurrier with pans on 24p content on the latter and thus I would gladly forgo the former for infinite blacks. When football season officially starts, I'll be testing it on the 9800 to see if there is any intolerable blurriness. The new forthcoming panels should be at least as good if not better with motion.


----------



## JimShaw

vinnie97 said:


> Switching between a ZT60 and a 9800, the motion is only occasionally noticed to be slightly blurrier with pans on 24p content on the latter and thus I would gladly forgo the former for infinite blacks. When football season officially starts, I'll be testing it on the 9800 to see if there is any intolerable blurriness. The new forthcoming panels should be at least as good if not better with motion.


Looking forward to your valuation


m


----------



## davidjschenk

JimShaw said:


> Looking forward to your valuation


Aye, a big +1 from me.

-David


----------



## mechman

I'll make it a +2! :T


----------



## vinnie97

Pressure's on now. :0 I need an HDMI switcher to get a better side-by-side impression...that'll be hard to wing right now unfortunately (must kill off some debts before I begin to entertain the 77" beast), so they may have to be consecutive comparisons.


----------



## vinnie97

Dad's over watching Notre Dame (the first broadcast sports witnessed on the set). Without an HDMI switch, the last thing I'm going to do is switch between the screens and compare so as to not irritate the esteemed guest (and I'd rather not feed one with component and the other an HDMI signal assuming the Dish STB will even output both simultaneously...).  I've disabled TruMotion, and I can say I have no motion complaints. Could there be some slight additional motion blur present on fast camera pans? Possibly, but I see no evidence of any screen breakup in motion nor do I notice any other artifacts, and the only thing I'm missing in the plasma at the moment is the greater screen real estate.


----------



## vinnie97

On the downside, even one half of the game with commercial breaks leaves behind scoreboard IR. It's no better on the ZT60 and is basically the unfortunate reality of emissive displays.


----------



## NYPete

vinnie97 said:


> On the downside, even one half of the game with commercial breaks leaves behind scoreboard IR. It's no better on the ZT60 and is basically the unfortunate reality of emissive displays.


Thanks for your preliminary impressions. Keep us informed on whether the IR gets better (less) over time. On the ZT60 did you notice it happening less and less as the TV ages?


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## vinnie97

Nope...even at nearly 3000 hours the ZT has been showing a great susceptibility to long-term IR, driving my OCD tendencies up the wall really. I guess I may be a good candidate for the Vizio R _if_ it ever materializes.  The grayscale scoreboard discoloration on the OLED while not gone is not visible on actual content, I'm happy to report.

Another disappointing facet about this comparison is that DISH suffers from blocky compression artifacts with fast motion, which distracts me from being able to properly compare. I guess OTA would be the best but I don't have an antenna installed atm.


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## JimP

vinnie97 said:


> On the downside, even one half of the game with commercial breaks leaves behind scoreboard IR. It's no better on the ZT60 and is basically the unfortunate reality of emissive displays.


We can always count on you telling it like it is.

My Panasonic VT50 is the same way. You put up the user menu for a few seconds and take it down and you see IR. Especially in the blues. On my Samsung F8500, its not anywhere close to being as bad.

How is the ABL? On scenes where the background is a bright white such as commercials, are faces unusually dark?


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## mvision7m

vinnie97 said:


> Nope...even at nearly 3000 hours the ZT has been showing a great susceptibility to long-term IR, driving my OCD tendencies up the wall really. I guess I may be a good candidate for the Vizio R if it ever materializes.  The grayscale scoreboard discoloration on the OLED while not gone is not visible on actual content, I'm happy to report. Another disappointing facet about this comparison is that DISH suffers from blocky compression artifacts with fast motion, which distracts me from being able to properly compare. I guess OTA would be the best but I don't have an antenna installed atm.


My ZT has certain areas of its screen that are highly susceptible to I.R. and others that hardly ever suffer from it at all. The top right hand corner seems to be the worst. During football season I cannot watch any games on FOX because they have that stupid FOX SPORTS screen bug up in that corner during the game and it's image hangs around on that portion of my set longer than I'm comfortable with after changing the channel. During other games that have the scoreboard either top center or upper left corner don't leave nearly the amount of I.R. that the upper right side gets. Lower right corner seems to be less sensitive than the upper right but still more than the upper center or left. Otherwise however, I love this t.v. And, I bought it from V.E.


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## vinnie97

Yea, Jim, I gave the F8500 a lot of grief at AVS, but it was clearly built more robust in the IR resiliency dept than the ZT. I was in energy saving mode yesterday (long story), and the ABL still didn't bother me on the 9800, lol. Keep in mind that the ABL was never a bother to me personally on the ZT60. It's a detail to which I'm not very perceptive fortunately. 

Mvision, that area where the FOX logo resides is actually in one of the hotter parts of the screen with a circuit board directly behind it. Unfortunately, content gets ingrained on the bottom part of my screen as well where it is relatively cooler. The Kuro I had was more resilient than this as well. 

The OLED only shows traces of uneveness where the scoreboard lied in the grayscale (which is where all the other nonuniformity of this panel manifests). White shows maybe a trace of it (1%). The colors are perfect as always. This was after 5 to 10 hours of pixel flipping, jogging, and full-screen Netflix content (with subtitle usage in that same area of the screen so could be a factor). As a result, I would be concerned about the cumulative effect of such content over time as I am with the ZT. This is only first gen tech from LG, so hopefully the new models will be more resilient. Fingers crossed.


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## davidjschenk

Awesome write-up, Vinnie; thanks much for posting it!

So for the LG's image retention, about how long have you seen it stick around? Is it still there, or have you managed to clear it out? And when it's happening, would you say it's as noticeable as, more noticeable than, or less noticeable than on your Panasonic?

Yours,

David


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## vinnie97

Happy to contribute any little bit I can. Happy to report the LG OLED's scoreboard IR presence has virtually vanished after mixing up the content (mainly full-screen Netflix). Still wouldn't buy an LCD anything over an emissive!

Oh, just saw your follow-up questions, two of which I already answered. What I saw was less noticeable than the Panasonic but only by a small degree (that which appeared on the ZT60 seemed to be visible across more of the color palette whereas the OLED only showed it in gray and minutely faintly in white). The rest of the season ought to be interesting.


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## davidjschenk

vinnie97 said:


> Happy to contribute any little bit I can. Happy to report the LG OLED's scoreboard IR presence has virtually vanished after mixing up the content (mainly full-screen Netflix). Still wouldn't buy an LCD anything over an emissive!
> 
> Oh, just saw your follow-up questions, two of which I already answered. What I saw was less noticeable than the Panasonic but only by a small degree (that which appeared on the ZT60 seemed to be visible across more of the color palette whereas the OLED only showed it in gray and minutely faintly in white). The rest of the season ought to be interesting.


Durrrr...yeah, you did already answer those first two. Sorry about that--I've been so spazzed out and distracted with school starting back up that I fear I'm reading some of these threads too quickly for my own good. _Mea culpa._

Well, so long as its IR is no worse than the ZT's, I'd say OLED is doing admirably at this point, then! I mean, this is only a second generation panel, so I have to think in future generations it'll be lessened substantially, and even just as it is, I've not heard or seen a single VT/ZT owner complain that their TV's IR is a deal-killer. So I'd say we can chalk one popular concern up as a qualified success for OLED, no?

Yours,

David


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## vinnie97

No no, I meant I inadvertently already answered them in my last post.  I should have added an "EDIT" to denote I had added to the above post (the second paragraph is an edit on my part).

The letterbox IR tendency is still greater on the OLED than the ZT60, but again I have a first gen TV technically. It seems later builds of the 9800 as well as the 9300 are reporting better resiliency there already.


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## davidjschenk

Oh--heh! I gotcha now.

So do you only see letterbox IR? Nowhere else? *crossed fingers*

Yours,

David


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## vinnie97

That's the most glaring issue. Outlines of that football scoreboard also were left if you recall (but cleared with varied use). Treating OLED like plasma is probably the wise path for now at least.


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## Ken Ross

vinnie97 said:


> Nope...even at nearly 3000 hours the ZT has been showing a great susceptibility to long-term IR, driving my OCD tendencies up the wall really. *I guess I may be a good candidate for the Vizio R if it ever materializes.  * The grayscale scoreboard discoloration on the OLED while not gone is not visible on actual content, I'm happy to report.
> 
> Another disappointing facet about this comparison is that DISH suffers from blocky compression artifacts with fast motion, which distracts me from being able to properly compare. I guess OTA would be the best but I don't have an antenna installed atm.


Vinnie, you jest right? I can't see you going to LCD.


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## Robert Zohn

If the aspect ratio cropping bars are set to gray they will not leave IR. It does not look as good with gray masking bars, but the potential of IR damage is greatly reduced.

-Robert


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## vinnie97

^But then you lose that sensation of a floating window in complete darkness. 


Ken Ross said:


> Vinnie, you jest right? I can't see you going to LCD.


Sharp Elite class-beating performance could potentially do it, but the glaring absence of any options between 65" and 120" makes it a moot point right now anyway.


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## JimShaw

vinnie97 said:


> ^But then you lose that sensation of a floating window in complete darkness.
> Sharp Elite class-beating performance could potentially do it, but the glaring absence of any options between 65" and 120" makes it a moot point right now anyway.


In another month or two, both a 65" and 77" are arriving. I can't wait


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## vinnie97

The OLEDs, yes, and I'm anxious to have one of my own...I was referring to the lack of proposed size options for the Vizio R FALD with a higher zone count than the venerable Elite.


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## JimShaw

vinnie97 said:


> The OLEDs, yes, and I'm anxious to have one of my own...I was referring to the lack of proposed size options for the Vizio R FALD with a higher zone count than the venerable Elite.


Oh, sorry



m


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## Ken Ross

Just a nutty decision by Vizio, IMO, to have such hugely divergent sizes within their R series.


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## davidjschenk

Ken Ross said:


> Just a nutty decision by Vizio, IMO, to have such hugely divergent sizes within their R series.


Hi Ken,

True. Might it be born of a need to minimize left over glass in the factory? I doubt Vizio in particular would do anything here that was not somehow driven by its overriding desire to control costs.

Yours,

David


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## vinnie97

It's been theorized that they'll expand the offering next year. That is the only other TV on my short list at the moment, and it just moved up in priority...

LG's WOLED is wavering for me because I saw the Smart Menu icons imprinted in the letterbox portions of the screen earlier today when displaying a grayscale (also shows up on dimmer earth tone colors like darker shades of green, brown, etc. in regular content but not visible from beyond 4 feet away). It depresses me to acknowledge it, but the static appearance of them not giving way is looking more like burn-in and less like IR (similar to what was seen on a few demo units over the last year). I sincerely hope it's the immature IGZO backplane and not the OLEDs themselves. Another family member is using the TV, but the screen couldn't have been left up for more than 30 minutes at most. A power cycle and 20-minute rest did not help. It's as if the letterbox portion of the screen has undergone some kind of untoward metamorphosis (I can still see the letterbox delineation at the top of the screen especially, even though 50 some odd hours of full-screen Netflix have been observed since watching the last letterbox content). I'll continue to try to erase and run the thing into the ground and utilize either the included or ext. warranty to get a replacement for the latest model or manage to see it self-heal.. I'll be paying close attention to how the 9300 behaves along with the forthcoming models and suggest everyone be a little gun shy before jumping in headlong like me. Beyond 1000 hours is when the real test begins. On the bright side, the subpixels are holding up well (no more failures beyond the original 3). Motion during the Green Bay/Seahawks game was satisfying as well. Those are currently the least of my worries.


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## Ken Ross

Vinnie, Vizio FALD or not, I can't see you being happy with LCD in any form. 

Regarding your issues, could it be a result of your early production units? I say that only because others haven't been seeing this with later runs over at AVS (at least that I'm aware of).

I was looking at a 9800 yesterday at BB, and as it has been doing for many weeks, it was playing Gravity. I was surprised to see, when I pulled up the LG menu, it was extremely hard to see any evidence of the LB demarcation. Considering the unit runs with this movie from opening to closing, never showing full-screen content, I was actually pretty amazed.


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## vinnie97

Yes, yes, it could. I've exhaustively run Disney's pixel flipper for the last 10+ hours, and the icon presence is 90% gone. This is driving me batty, almost as much as the ZT60 and its IR tendencies. As far as me not being happy with a FALD (I've never had experience with one beyond fleeting showroom experience), that's possible...I got by with a cloud/MURA-laden edge-lit Samsung LCD for a year before discovering a real flat panel (Kuro), so anything's possible.


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## vinnie97

I'm still very much in the OLED camp. I am attempting to get into the service menu and conduct a reset since the letterbox portion of the screen seems so radically out of sync with the center. Need to get me a Harmony remote foyst.


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## Ken Ross

Vinnie, not sure what you mean by 'out of synch with the center' or what a reset would do for it.


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## vinnie97

The center does not behave like the letterbox areas (which are prone to stubborn IR whether in the form of brightness differences from letterbox viewing or actual image retention), so the compensation mechanism seems to be a primary cause. The fact that I had the panel switched out in April for another (due to 4 dead subpixels) might be exacerbating this issue. No reset was done. This relates to current and voltage as it pertains to different areas of the screen. I found this explanation at AVF enlightening/intriguing: http://www.avforums.com/goto/post?id=21111002#post-21111002


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## Ken Ross

Interesting read over there, Vinnie. But I got the impression that these were 'theories' and 'best guesses' as opposed to facts. Thoughts?

Also interesting to see the people that have had no IR. You see the same thing over at AVS. Weird.


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## vinnie97

Yes, very much so, and I still have a strong recollection of those Kuro owners who toiled with similar resets on their own panels...I'm inclined to trade up for a 9300 before I go down that rabbithole. The letterbox demarcation that occurs after one movie alone should work in my favor.


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## Ken Ross

If you're trading, you might as well wait for the 65" & 77" UHDs.


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## vinnie97

Well, I meant as a warranty replacement really. A 9300 wouldn't be out of place in the MBR, which was the original plan I had for the 9800.  I have other designs on the great room of course.


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## Robert Zohn

Well folks we're starting to put up our 2014 TV Shootout videos on our YouTube page. 

Check it out!

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

More segments of our 2014 TV Shootout are going up. Here's part 2 of Joe Kane's presentation. Joe reviles very important information about the future of 4K Ultra HD.

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

Dr. Larry Weber's 2014 TV Shootout presentation at our store was just uploaded. Check this one out to get a great education on the three display technologies.

-Robert


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## lcaillo

I second that recommendation. Watching it is time well spent.


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## Robert Zohn

Up next is Tim Alessi, LG's Director of Product Development. 

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

Here's Sony's presentation by Philip Jones. Philip's presentation is excellent!

-Robert


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## mechman

Thanks for this Robert!! I know I like to watch these at least a couple of times.


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks mech! We love sponsoring our annual event and this was our best year! The presenters are among the very best experts on video and we all learned a lot from their talks.

Check out Part 6, Samsung's Director of Quality Assurance Engineering, Mike Wood's presentation at our 2014 TV Shootout.

This is the last of the manufacturers presentations. The next segment is run by Kevin Miller and he speaks on contrast ratio and demonstrates how each TV performs with test patterns and real video content.

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

Part 7 just went up. This is the beginning of the TV Shootout were we turn the event over to Kevin Miller and our panel of experts to help us evaluate each TV. This segment covers each TVs performance in regard to high ambient light viewing and contrast ratio. At the end of this clip David Mackenzie reveals for the first time our local zone counter and announces how many local dimming zones we counted on each display.

An education well worth the the time to watch and hear. If you enjoy these segments please give us the thumbs up and make any comments you like.

Also feel free to discuss or ask questions on his thread.

-Robert


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## mechman

Well I'll give you a thumbs up!! :T


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks mech! :TT

Part 8 is up, Color Tracking, Color Fidelity, & Gamma.

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

Part 9 is available to view. This is the final 2015 TV Shootout video. We may publish the awards presentation and some final follow-up remarks.

Hope everyone watches Part 9 and enjoyed this year's TV Shootout event!

-Robert


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