# High End CD Changer (Carousel) Options?



## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Aside from the usual suspects -- Denon, Marantz, Sony, Onkyo et al -- are there any higher end options for carousel type CD changers on the market...something along the lines of NAD, Rotel, etc?


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

CD carousel storage devices (150+ discs) do not have very good transports and DACs (some don't even have DACs). I think Sony is the only producer of a 400 disc player. That leaves the 5-disc carousels, and beyond those you mention Rotel did or does make the RCC955. http://www.rotel.com/NA/Products/ProductDetails.htm?Id=127&Tab=1&Pic=1

NAD made the 5170 (six-disc), 505, 515, 517, and 523. The problem is generally you will get more vibration in such a system which is not condusive to high fidelity. However, some of these changers are pretty good, the Sony SCD-CE595 SACD 5-disc changer had gotten good reviews. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0205/sonyscdce595.htm

Higher end companies stick with single disc transports paired with good DACs for intended sound quality.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

If a CD player or Carousel has an analog output it has to have a DAC. The only "players" I'm aware of with no DAC are classified as transports. They tend to be rather expensive and are for the most part single CD players only.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

Nothing I know that still exists. I think Nakamishi had one many moons ago.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

jackfish said:


> http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0205/sonyscdce595.htm


"Sure enough, it's an SACD player. So I surfed over to the Best Buy website to double check the price and availability. Sure enough, it's cheap and available. Well, lucky me, I just happen to have some Best Buy Bucks (a $100 gift card) staring me in the face that I got as a Christmas present. Knowing this player is only $149 made the decision (impulse actually) that much less painful. So looked over at my lovely wife, opened my mouth to say "I'm off to buy an SACD player." and then I came to my senses. I just said, "I'll be back in a few" and slid out the door."
:rofl:

Good read, thanks for sharing.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

JoeESP9 said:


> If a CD player or Carousel has an analog output it has to have a DAC. The only "players" I'm aware of with no DAC are classified as transports. They tend to be rather expensive and are for the most part single CD players only.


Some CD carousel storage devices are essentially computer CD-ROMs that house 150+ CDs. They have no DAC and rely on a computer to play a music CD. Hence, the transport in them is usually about the same quality as found in a computer.

TypeA, I hope you enjoy your Sony SACD player!


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

jackfish said:


> CD carousel storage devices (150+ discs) do not have very good transports and DACs (some don't even have DACs). I think Sony is the only producer of a 400 disc player. That leaves the 5-disc carousels, and beyond those you mention Rotel did or does make the RCC955. http://www.rotel.com/NA/Products/ProductDetails.htm?Id=127&Tab=1&Pic=1


I was not talking about the carousel "jukebox" type changes that hold the 150 plus discs -- strictly the revolving, five or six tray carousels. I only mentioned Rotel as an example of the level of performance I was looking to expect in this purchase -- these machines are still made by Sony, Denon, Marantz and Onkyo, but I was looking for a "higher end" pedigree this time around, and was not sure if Rotel-type boutique brands still made any five/six disc carousels...

That Rotel indeed seems interesting -- but I am not sure if that's part of their current lineup. 



> NAD made the 5170 (six-disc), 505, 515, 517, and 523. The problem is generally you will get more vibration in such a system which is not condusive to high fidelity. However, some of these changers are pretty good, the Sony SCD-CE595 SACD 5-disc changer had gotten good reviews. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0205/sonyscdce595.htm
> 
> Higher end companies stick with single disc transports paired with good DACs for intended sound quality.


I realize why high end companies make the single disc transports and such; for my applications, it must be a carousel five or six disc changer. I'd like to stay away from Sony audio if I could, even the ES stuff, and I don't need SACD capability. I was actually thinking of this to complement the stereo receiver in the same system:

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=DX-C390&class=Compact Disc&p=i

What do you think? It looks like it's built like a workhorse, and I dig the blue LED that lights up the trays in the dark. I realize this isn't terribly high end, but they do make some solid stuff...

I think there's an Integra version of it also...


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Andre said:


> Nothing I know that still exists. I think Nakamishi had one many moons ago.


There are quite a few manufacturers still making the changers, but I was hoping to go a bit beyond the Denons, Sonys, etc. I think I remember Nakamichi's deck...still nothing like their tape decks, eh?


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

JoeESP9 said:


> If a CD player or Carousel has an analog output it has to have a DAC.


Correct. The digital-to-analog conversion is being performed within the player/changer, and sent out via analog connections, as opposed to a digital connection, whereby the raw stream is being sent to a processor on the other end of the loop (preamp/integrated amp/stereo receiver) to do the internal conversion.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

As far as I am aware there is not any if at all a high end CD carousels, it might be worth looking into purchasing a good transport and then purchasing a seperate higher end DAC, something like the Benchmark 1 DAC is a good point of reference.

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac/dac1


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

For $165 the Onkyo DX-390 looks hard to beat. It is feature rich, sporting a Wolfson Microelectronics 192 kHz/24-Bit DAC and a transport independent of the carousel. You can improve upon it with an outboard DAC at some time in the future.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Osage_Winter said:


> I was actually thinking of this to complement the stereo receiver in the same system:
> 
> http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=DX-C390&class=Compact Disc&p=i
> 
> What do you think? It looks like it's built like a workhorse, and I dig the blue LED that lights up the trays in the dark. I realize this isn't terribly high end, but they do make some solid stuff...


Im following replies to this option closely, hopefully lots of folks here will respond. Not fond of the size of the unit (I might skip a carousel if it comes to that), but then Im _also_ not fond of paying almost $500 for a Oppo just to get the best cd performance. Great thread btw, going back several pages in this section theres not much suggested for good cd players, except the oppo... :nerd:


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

What about the Emotiva ERC-1?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

If you check out eBay you may be able to find an Yamaha CDC805 5 disc carousels in good shape. I still have mine after all these years (early 90's) and it still works flawlessly. It got top marks in the consumer reports for build quality and the DACs are better than what most if not all players use even today. It also employ's a nice sized power transformer that apparently helps dramatically improve the sound quality. It weighs a fair bit as well for a CD player.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

jackfish said:


> What about the Emotiva ERC-1?


Unbelievable value and a fine piece of gear, but at $400+ its in the price range of an Oppo. Is going with a huge carousel from Onkyo, for less than half the clams, going to make all that difference? Id like a cut above my pana bd55 blu ray without breaking the bank, should I be spending $400 to do so?


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

recruit said:


> As far as I am aware there is not any if at all a high end CD carousels, it might be worth looking into purchasing a good transport and then purchasing a seperate higher end DAC, something like the Benchmark 1 DAC is a good point of reference.
> 
> http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac/dac1


Thanks, Recruit; I believe you're right with regard to high end options, unfortunately...just figured I would continue asking (save for used, of course)...

People (not on this site) keep guiding me back to Marantz's replacement for the model I have now, the 4003, but I do not want to give them another chance in this category.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

jackfish said:


> For $165 the Onkyo DX-390 looks hard to beat. It is feature rich, sporting a Wolfson Microelectronics 192 kHz/24-Bit DAC and a transport independent of the carousel. You can improve upon it with an outboard DAC at some time in the future.


Thanks Jack...

I appreciate your feedback about this model; are the Wolfson DACs what you would call fairly premium in this changer? Do you definitely think it is a quality piece? This is the model I referenced on their site, yes?

Crutchfield has it for $199 if I'm not mistaken...BTW, where did you see it for $165? 

Of course I have a budget, but I'd be willing to spend more than 200 bucks on a new changer...that's why I was wondering if there were any higher-tiered options out there. Do you think the Integra version of this changer would be any "better"?

Like most Onkyo/Integra comparos, the specs and build appear to be nearly identical:

http://integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=CDC-3.4&class=CD&p=i


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

jackfish said:


> What about the Emotiva ERC-1?


This is a CD changer?

Edit: Just checked on the site; it's a single-disc unit; I think I'm getting confused because there seems to be two conversations going on in this thread...


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> If you check out eBay you may be able to find an Yamaha CDC805 5 disc carousels in good shape. I still have mine after all these years (early 90's) and it still works flawlessly. It got top marks in the consumer reports for build quality and the DACs are better than what most if not all players use even today. It also employ's a nice sized power transformer that apparently helps dramatically improve the sound quality. It weighs a fair bit as well for a CD player.


Thanks Tony; I appreciate the direction, but I'd rather buy new. I know Yamaha is still making changers though in their current lineup...nothing you'd recommend?


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Jack,

According to the research I'm doing on the Onkyo USA site, that changer doesn't seem to have Wolfson DACs as you said; where did you get your info? Just curious, because I'd like to read more about it...


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I think the problem we have is how " high end " CD changers go and what an individual considers to be high end? I mentioned a separate DAC as it then gives you the option to use a CD changer via a digital output then that signal could be improved upon by reducing any signal degradation giving the user more flexibility and a better sound.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

Well, I understand that; I was just curious as to whether or not there were self-sustaining CD changers "out of the box" made by manufacturers considered a bit "beyond" the class of your typical Denon, Onkyo, Sony, etc...


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I do not know of any apart from the brands you have already mentioned sorry


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

No worries -- thanks very much anyway, John. :T


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Osage_Winter said:


> Jack,
> 
> According to the research I'm doing on the Onkyo USA site, that changer doesn't seem to have Wolfson DACs as you said; where did you get your info? Just curious, because I'd like to read more about it...


From Vanns website:

Up To 6 Discs for Hours of Enjoyment
Music lovers rejoice! If you're looking for the ultimate in CD playback from an audiophile grade component, you will be impressed with high-precision VQA (Vector Quantizer Audio DAC Technology) and 128x oversampling. Those looking for convenience will thrill at the sight of 6-disc capability, 6 repeat modes, 40-track programming and no worries about interruptions to your music with the ability to change 5 discs while the last one is still playing. You will marvel at crystal clear playback enhanced by Onkyo's exclusive VLSC (Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry) for a smoother sounding audio signal and Direct Digital Path, a heavily shielded, high-quality cable to protect that same delicate audio signal from noise emitted by the surrounding circuits. Housed in a sturdy chassis graced with a brushed aluminum front panel, the DXC390 is ready to provide hours of uninterrupted music for the soundtrack of your life.

VLSC (Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry)
Conventional D/A conversion methods reduce digital pulse noise at the conversion stage but can't remove it completely. Previously only available on Onkyo's high-end components, VLSC employs a unique D/A conversion circuit to overcome this problem. Data is converted between the sampling points and these discrete sampling points are joined with analog vectors in real-time to produce a smooth output wave form. The result is a noiseless, smooth analog signal based on the digital source.

192kHz/24-Bit DAC with VQA (Vector Quantizer Audio) Technology
The DXC390 features a Wolfson Microelectronics 192 kHz/24-Bit DAC (digital-to-analog converter) specially designed for digital audio applications. Incorporating a novel multi bit sigma-delta design, this DAC boasts a 128x oversampling rate to optimize the S/N (signal-to-noise) ratio performance and provide increased clock jitter tolerance. Also incorporated is exclusive VQA (Vector Quantizer Audio) technology. This breakthrough provides a smoother and leveler signal up to and beyond 20 kHz for optimal sound from your CD collection.

Unique Design Concept
Change up to 5 discs while one is still playing with the DX-C390's exclusive 6-disc carousel design. Also, an elegant light is conveniently located above the loading mechanism for easy disc recognition when changing in the dark. And when you open the tray to put in your favorite music, you'll be amazed at the lack of sound with its exclusive ultra-quiet loading mechanism.

Exclusive Direct Digital Path
Unlike other CD players that use PC-board copper traces to transfer the digital audio signal, the DXC390 employs a high-purity, heavy-gauge, shielded cable to directly output the digital bitstream straight from the disc to the back panel. The result is a noise-free digital audio signal that is less susceptible to flux.

MP3 Playback
Instead of using your small computer speakers, you can play your MP3 files via the DXC390. That's up to 10 hours or more of music on a single disc, depending on the bit rate of the MP3 files. Play these back with Onkyo's exclusive VLSC (Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry) to bring out the nuances and clarity you would have never thought possible.

Included With Purchase
Full-function remote control.

Comparison Specifications
•6-Disc Capacity
•Carousel Changer
•CD-R/CD-RW/MP3 CD Playback Capability
•Optical and Coaxial Digital Outputs
•6 Repeat Modes (1 Disc, All Discs, Random, Programmed, Random Memory, Single Track)
•40-Track Programming
•192 kHz/24-Bit Digital-to-Analog Converter
•Full-Function Remote Control
Additional Specifications
•VLSC (Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry)
•VQA (Vector Quantizer Audio) Technology
•128x Oversampling
•Direct Digital Path
•Change Up To 5 Discs During Play
•Fixed Output
•Next Selection (Via Remote)
•4-Mode Display Dimmer
•Green Light for Disc Recognition
•Brushed Aluminum Front Panel

Dimensional Specifications
•15.0 lbs.
•17 1/8" x 5 3/16" x 17"

Onkyo DX-C390 Warranty Details
1 Year Parts and Labor

ADD TO CART PRICE at Vanns: $164.98


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Osage_Winter said:


> This is a CD changer?
> 
> Edit: Just checked on the site; it's a single-disc unit; I think I'm getting confused because there seems to be two conversations going on in this thread...


Sorry, TypeA and I where having a side conversation and I should have used a quote and addressed TypeA directly. My apologies.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Remember, it is not just the quality of the DAC chip that makes a difference in sound quality, it is also the circuitry supporting the DAC.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Sorry bout the confusion Osage, didnt mean to hijack your thread. Im also on the hunt for a better cd player than my pana blu ray player and the oppo and emotiva seem a little pricey (albeit a great value). Your thread seemed along the same lines (I wouldnt mind a changer) and I couldnt see starting another thread. Id love to see a sticky in this section for the currently recommended audiophile-grade gear, broke down according to price. From what Im gathering $400 is entry level for cd machines :gulp:


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

jackfish said:


> From Vanns website:
> 
> Up To 6 Discs for Hours of Enjoyment
> Music lovers rejoice! If you're looking for the ultimate in CD playback from an audiophile grade component, you will be impressed with high-precision VQA (Vector Quantizer Audio DAC Technology) and 128x oversampling. Those looking for convenience will thrill at the sight of 6-disc capability, 6 repeat modes, 40-track programming and no worries about interruptions to your music with the ability to change 5 discs while the last one is still playing. You will marvel at crystal clear playback enhanced by Onkyo's exclusive VLSC (Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry) for a smoother sounding audio signal and Direct Digital Path, a heavily shielded, high-quality cable to protect that same delicate audio signal from noise emitted by the surrounding circuits. Housed in a sturdy chassis graced with a brushed aluminum front panel, the DXC390 is ready to provide hours of uninterrupted music for the soundtrack of your life.
> ...


I think someone has their information wrong, or something just doesn't add up -- Onkyo says no such thing about the Wolfson DACs unless I am just not seeing it on their site:

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=DX-C390&class=Compact Disc&p=i

I don't know where Vann's got the specs from...:huh:


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

No worries, TypeA and Jack...thanks for clearing up the side conversation dilemma!


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Osage_Winter said:


> I think someone has their information wrong, or something just doesn't add up -- Onkyo says no such thing about the Wolfson DACs unless I am just not seeing it on their site:
> 
> http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=DX-C390&class=Compact Disc&p=i
> 
> I don't know where Vann's got the specs from...:huh:


They got their information from Onkyo. http://www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/product_info/pdf/dx-c390_leaflet.pdf Because you can't find anything directly from Onkyo on what kind of DAC they used does not mean someone has their information wrong, just that Onkyo omits that information in most of their literature.


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## Osage_Winter (Apr 8, 2010)

jackfish said:


> They got their information from Onkyo. http://www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/product_info/pdf/dx-c390_leaflet.pdf Because you can't find anything directly from Onkyo on what kind of DAC they used does not mean someone has their information wrong, just that Onkyo omits that information in most of their literature.


I didn't see that leaflet -- I was going _strictly_ by the USA website's specs, which mention nothing about the particular DACs used...


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