# The Onkyo or the Denon?



## Toby Jack (Feb 5, 2010)

I'm ready to up the watts from my current Harmon Kardon AVR1600. The two candidates are the new Denon AVR-591 with 125 watts per channel and the new Onkyo TX-SR508 with 80 watts per channel. I know that some manufacturers exaggerate power ratings but I think Denon fairly honest. Some of the features offered by the Denon are Audyssey Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ. I'm so sick of commercials blasting me out of my chair. Does anyone have any experience with Audyssey features? Care to share?

My only concern is that I might be losing some of the fines offered by the Harman Kardon. If any Denon/Onkyo AVR owners would like to share about not only movie performance but the quality of music playback as well, I would really appreciate it. Thanks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Toby Jack said:


> I'm ready to up the watts from my current Harmon Kardon AVR1600. The two candidates are the new Denon AVR-591 with 125 watts per channel and the new Onkyo TX-SR508 with 80 watts per channel. I know that some manufacturers exaggerate power ratings but I think Denon fairly honest. Some of the features offered by the Denon are Audyssey Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ. I'm so sick of commercials blasting me out of my chair. Does anyone have any experience with Audyssey features? Care to share?
> 
> My only concern is that I might be losing some of the fines offered by the Harman Kardon. If any Denon/Onkyo AVR owners would like to share about not only movie performance but the quality of music playback as well, I would really appreciate it. Thanks!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hello,
The Denon you are looking at will not come near to outputting 125 WPC All Channels Driven. Even Denon's 1500 Dollar AVR-3310 does not come close to meeting its rated power. It used not to be this way with Denon, but their recent offerings have offered many more Features, but have truly skimped on the Power Supply.

The Onkyo 508 more than likely will not meet its specs either All Channels Driven either. In truth, it is quite rare to find AVR's that do meet their Rated Specification. Onkyo's TX-SR805, 875, 876, 905, and 906 all came unbelievably close and in Stereo offered more than double the Specs.

In truth, the 2 AVR's you are looking at will probably not really offer you any meaningful upgrade in power.
I am a huge fan of Audyssey MultEQ and do think it is an excellent feature however.

What is your max budget? And also, what kind of Speakers are you using?
Cheers,
JJ


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## Toby Jack (Feb 5, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> The Denon you are looking at will not come near to outputting 125 WPC All Channels Driven. Even Denon's 1500 Dollar AVR-3310 does not come close to meeting its rated power. It used not to be this way with Denon, but their recent offerings have offered many more Features, but have truly skimped on the Power Supply.
> 
> The Onkyo 508 more than likely will not meet its specs either All Channels Driven either. In truth, it is quite rare to find AVR's that do meet their Rated Specification. Onkyo's TX-SR805, 875, 876, 905, and 906 all came unbelievably close and in Stereo offered more than double the Specs.
> ...


Those two units interested my because they are in the sub $400 arena which, unfortunately, is where I have to stay for a while. I am running Boston Acoustics Classic Series CS 26 bookshelves (L & R) and a CS 225C center channel. My rears are Proficient 4"-woofer satellites that I care less about for the time being.

So you're saying that other than the new Audyssey features, the Denon & Onkyo wont offer much more in the way of power or quality?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Toby Jack said:


> So you're saying that other than the new Audyssey features, the Denon & Onkyo wont offer much more in the way of power or quality?


Jack is 100% correct in his assesment, I dont really think that you will get any benafit going with either of the receivers you have listed. You could go with this Onkyo 706 as it would be much better for your needs an has a decent power output and is THX certified.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Toby Jack said:


> Those two units interested my because they are in the sub $400 arena which, unfortunately, is where I have to stay for a while. I am running Boston Acoustics Classic Series CS 26 bookshelves (L & R) and a CS 225C center channel. My rears are Proficient 4"-woofer satellites that I care less about for the time being.
> 
> So you're saying that other than the new Audyssey features, the Denon & Onkyo wont offer much more in the way of power or quality?


Hello,
I would strongly recommend looking for a used Onkyo TX-SR805. Made in Japan, THX Ultra2, Audyssey MultEQ XT, Burr Brown DAC's, weighs 51 pounds, and much more. At it's original MSRP of 1099, it honestly was the greatest value in AVR's in the HDMI era. The replacement TX-SR806 weighs 14 pounds less, uses cheaper DAC's, uses the less powerful MultEQ and not MultEQ XT, and as is with all Onkyo AVR's since the 05 Series, is now made in Malaysia.

In my opinion, the 805 would represent a major upgrade. When Bench Tested, the 805 output over 100 WPC All Channels Driven. If you could up your budget, the TX-SR876 is available refurbished for around 800 Dollars and offers all that the 805 offers and adds top tier Video Processing, ISF Video Modes, more HDMI Inputs, etc.

I would look at Audiogon, Ebay and Craigslist for the 805. If interested in refurbished Models, Accessories4less has unbeatable prices on Onkyo. You could get the 899 MSRP TX-SR706 for close to your stated budget. The 706 offers THX Select2 Plus Processing, preamp outputs, Audyssey MultEQ, and more. It is far less powerful than the 805 or 876 however. But still much nicer than the Models you are considering.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Toby Jack (Feb 5, 2010)

Interesting. Thank you for all your knowledge. I guess when comparing AVRs, weight is an important consideration. Is there a particular resource you have for sifting through the marketing crud to find true specs for HT products?


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I would strongly recommend looking for a used Onkyo TX-SR805.


If you like the HK interface but just want more power pair a behringer A500 with a HK 254. 

If you don't like the receiver and want to upgrade it. I'd suggest the 705 or 706 because it has all the features and typically costs around 315 on the market now. The 805 used would be a great score, but you better have the rack for it. It's a monster receiver that needs good air for it's massive power supply.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
An integral reference for ascertaining an AVR's true power rating is reading the Bench Tests of them. Magazines like Home Theater, Sound & Vision, and Ultimate AV provide Measurements of how an AVR performs in multiple configurations.

Moreover, weight is indeed a good indicator when looking at Class AB AVR's. The vast majority of AVR's are still Class AB, but there have been some inroads made by Class H, Class D and other AVR's that consume less energy. These newer Amplifier Topologies usually weigh less than AB. For example, Pioneer's Elite AVR's use Bang & Olefson's ICE Amplifier Modules which are not Class AB.

Unfortunately, the majority of AVR's you see at Best Buy do not come close to meeting their rated power. In truth, it is usually the upper tier AVR's which come close to or exceed the specs.

All of this being said, very few really need 100 watts constantly to 5 or 7 channels. It is nice during high impact scenes in Movies to have the current and power to really have a Cinematic experience. Most AVR's which are THX Ultra2 do come close to meeting their specs and is again why the TX-SR805 is so special is that it has power and features comparable to AVR's which cost 3-4 times its MSRP.
Cheers,
JJ


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Jungle Jack said:


> All of this being said, very few really need 100 watts constantly to 5 or 7 channels. It is nice during high impact scenes in Movies to have the current and power to really have a Cinematic experience. Most AVR's which are THX Ultra2 do come close to meeting their specs and is again why the TX-SR805 is so special is that it has power and features comparable to AVR's which cost 3-4 times its MSRP.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I'm building a reference speaker pair and the rated wattage for the woofer's is 125 watts, so your assessment is spot on. A receiver even better than the 805 was the Yamaha R-VX2600. Yamaha went all out on it and left no stone unturned. However finding them is pretty rare compared to the 805. 

Unfortunately these kinds of gems aren't being made now. The economy really forced a downgrade in receivers.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Toby Jack said:


> Interesting. Thank you for all your knowledge. I guess when comparing AVRs, weight is an important consideration. Is there a particular resource you have for sifting through the marketing crud to find true specs for HT products?


Your very best option is to simply look for a receiver with a weight over 40lbs if it says its power output is 100watts per ch and it only weighs 27lbs be very suspicious. The 805, 905 as well as the 875 and 876 were some of the best receivers ever made and still can be found but you pay a good bit over your budget but is well worth it. Your other options are also adding outboard amplification to a receiver that has pre outs (most over the $500 range do) this at least gives you the ability to add an external amp some time down the road is you so choose.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Your very best option is to simply look for a receiver with a weight over 40lbs if it says its power output is 100watts per ch and it only weighs 27lbs be very suspicious. The 805, 905 as well as the 875 and 876 were some of the best receivers ever made and still can be found but you pay a good bit over your budget but is well worth it. Your other options are also adding outboard amplification to a receiver that has pre outs (most over the $500 range do) this at least gives you the ability to add an external amp some time down the road is you so choose.


Unfortunately weight is only a partial clue of the receivers power output. In fact I'm sure some manufacturers prey on this idea by adding dead weight. For example Yamaha can get 7000 watts from a 33lb amp in the pro audio world. Unfortunately there is also no real way to know the overall ratings of every receiver out there because you'd need a valid sample size receivers of every model and a standardized test to know. These don't exist so you are ultimately stuck with word of mouth. Thankfully you came to the right place for that. :T


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

I have the Onkyo 805 and it is a VERY nice unit!! I really suggest saving a little bit more money and picking up an 805 on the used market. :T 

Looks like they are going for 500.00 +
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...?ie=UTF8&qid=1274935190&sr=8-1&condition=used

Matt


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

mdrake said:


> I have the Onkyo 805 and it is a VERY nice unit!! I really suggest saving a little bit more money and picking up an 805 on the used market. :T
> 
> Looks like they are going for 500.00 +
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...?ie=UTF8&qid=1274935190&sr=8-1&condition=used
> ...


the 705 is nearly as good as the 805 and goes for 315 now.


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## Toby Jack (Feb 5, 2010)

Not that customer reviews offer up much valuable information, but 119 5-star reviews for the 805 has got to mean something! 

From all of these posts I am sensing that Onkyo, in general, is held in higher regard than Denon for all of you Shacksters. Maybe that's not the case. Is there, however, a Denon that's comparable to the 805? I think Denon wins out for me in terms of aesthetics, considering it will be sitting on display.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

lsiberian said:


> the 705 is nearly as good as the 805 and goes for 315 now.


WOW, 315.00 for a 705!!! :T

Matt


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## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

Toby Jack said:


> ... Is there, however, a Denon that's comparable to the 805? ...


I've not looked in detail at all the features, but the Denon AVR-989/AVR-2809 is similar to the 805 in that it included Audyssey MultEQ XT at a very attractive price, something that Denon has limited to higher models in later years. It can be found used and refurbished. 

I opted for the Denon because of the reputation that they run cooler than the Onkyos, and I was concerned about ventilation where I was going to place it. On the Onkyo side, they do offer more flexibility in the choice of crossover frequencies, e.g., 50Hz, 70Hz, which Denon does not include. 

Bill


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## Matteo (Jul 12, 2006)

Save your money. Buy an amp to boost your power, or save your money for a few more months and put it on a better reciever that has the newer EQ and bling.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Matteo said:


> Save your money. Buy an amp to boost your power, or save your money for a few more months and put it on a better reciever that has the newer EQ and bling.


The 805/705 have the latest EQ(Audyssey MultEQ XT), more power, and pre-amp outs. 

Internally they are a better receiver than a lot of the more recent ones. This is because they were the last receiver batch made before the recession hit. 

I'd try to snipe this tomorrow on Ebay 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Onkyo-TX-SR705-...wItem&pt=Receivers_Tuners&hash=item4aa18b4f36 

It is the best receiver Onkyo has ever made IMO. I like it better than the 805 because it doesn't have as many heat issues while still having the top EQ system and good internals. I owned this receiver once and wish I'd never sold it.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Just keep in mind that the 705 and 805 do not support HDMI 1.4. As long as you are ok with that, I would grab that 705. 

Matt


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

mdrake said:


> Just keep in mind that the 705 and 805 do not support HDMI 1.4. As long as you are ok with that, I would grab that 705.
> 
> Matt


That is a problem we will face in the next few years.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I've got a Denon 3808ci and it's rated at 130 watts but i know it's not putting out near that with all channels driven, it is an awesome amp from my perspective but like the other folks have been saying, reviews and sometimes weight of a product are good indicators of quality. I was reading an article that Marantz is one of the only companies that try to stay in the 70% rating with all channels driven which is strange because Denon and Marantz are sister companies.

To me it sounds as if picking up one of the Onkyo's that the folks have been talking about would be your best bet. I know that my nextAVR will be an Onkyo.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The 705 would be a fine choice, but while the 805 does run hotter, the 805 offers a sizable amount more power. The 805 used the same chassis as the 875 and 905 and same Amplifier section as the 1700 Dollar TX-SR875.

While many have commented on heat issues with the upper level Onkyo's, very few have actually shutdown or failed. And while in full disclosure I have never used the Amplifiers in my 875, it still runs warm and I had it setup in a BDI Rack with such tight clearance that I had to remove the feet of it to make it fit. I did this for over a year with zero issues. Eventually, I dragged out an old B&O Rack and setup the 875 where a TV would reside otherwise on the top of the Rack.

Again, the 805 really was special. I highly recommend going to Ecoustics.com and doing a Search for the TX-SR805. The Professional Reviews were beyond complimentary,
Cheers,
JJ


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## Toby Jack (Feb 5, 2010)

I noticed something really odd when reading the bench test of the newer Onkyo TX-NR807 at hometheatermag.com. There was a *huge* difference in power output between 5 & 7 channels. Actually, here is the report:

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1% distortion at 105.5 watts 
1% distortion at 122.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1% distortion at 29.9 watts 
1% distortion at 33.0 watts

Any clue as to why this is?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Toby Jack said:


> I noticed something really odd when reading the bench test of the newer Onkyo TX-NR807 at hometheatermag.com. There was a *huge* difference in power output between 5 & 7 channels. Actually, here is the report:
> 
> Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
> 0.1% distortion at 105.5 watts
> ...


There was the same huge gap when they tested the Denon 4810. Was wondering the same thing and kept waiting for a correction in the next months issue but it never came. :scratch:


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
With the 807, it has been discussed in other Forums that when performing Bench Tests into 7 Channels, that the 807 incorporates a current limiting circuit to maintain stability.

The 807 is THX Select2 and actually is a decent bit less powerful than the Ultra2 Certified 805. The 805 actually passed the 7 Channel Test if memory serves.
Cheers,
JJ


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> With the 807, it has been discussed in other Forums that when performing Bench Tests into 7 Channels, that the 807 incorporates a current limiting circuit to maintain stability.
> 
> The 807 is THX Select2 and actually is a decent bit less powerful than the Ultra2 Certified 805. The 805 actually passed the 7 Channel Test if memory serves.
> ...


Yeah but 7 channels continuously driven is an unnecessary case to pass. This happens so rarely it's not worth the effort.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Agreed. I actually meant to point out that out as well in respect for the need of that much power into 7 Channels continuously.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jbcrete2 (Dec 31, 2008)

A few words about the Denon...The owners manual is a nightmare to get your head however help is available on the net. Check out "Batpigworld" for Denon in plain English...


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

jbcrete2 said:


> A few words about the Denon...The owners manual is a nightmare to get your head however help is available on the net. Check out "Batpigworld" for Denon in plain English...


I would agree that the manual is a handful but (not to put anybody down) any competant person with some knowledge of HT equipment can figure it out relativly easy. And the OSD is a dream come true but like the manual can also be a handful untill you familurize yourself with it. Just like any new product theres a learning curve. :scratch::sn:


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

A quick note on the Onkyo heat debate. I have a launch 875 (I actually pre-ordered before general release), and the heat has never been an issue. Its running as happily today as it ever has. Ive also noted the heat it produces differs little between idling or running a movie at higher volumes.

Power rating wise. Its rated at 200 watts, but produces 140 per channel, 5 channels driven. My speakers are 8 ohm, so cant comment on heat with lower impedance loads.


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## Toby Jack (Feb 5, 2010)

Moonfly said:


> A quick note on the Onkyo heat debate. I have a launch 875 (I actually pre-ordered before general release), and the heat has never been an issue. Its running as happily today as it ever has. Ive also noted the heat it produces differs little between idling or running a movie at higher volumes.
> 
> Power rating wise. Its rated at 200 watts, but produces 140 per channel, 5 channels driven. My speakers are 8 ohm, so cant comment on heat with lower impedance loads.


Is your entertainment center/rack open and exposed (for lots of air flow)? Only reason I ask is because mine would be behind closed doors with a medium-sized slit in the rear for cabling.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Toby Jack said:


> Is your entertainment center/rack open and exposed (for lots of air flow)? Only reason I ask is because mine would be behind closed doors with a medium-sized slit in the rear for cabling.


Problem with enclosed cabinets is that they function like an oven. Electronics need air flow. I suggest putting some fans on the back to get you that air flow you need.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Toby Jack said:


> Is your entertainment center/rack open and exposed (for lots of air flow)? Only reason I ask is because mine would be behind closed doors with a medium-sized slit in the rear for cabling.


There is room for air to move around the amp, and I would never enclose it. No matter which amp you choose, you want to allow air to move over it. lsiberian makes a good point about adding fans, and as long as you do that I would still be happy with either the Denon or Onkyo in your rack.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Let's go with the Denon or Marantz. 

I'm just not comfortable with an 805 in your rack.


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## Toby Jack (Feb 5, 2010)

lsiberian said:


> Problem with enclosed cabinets is that they function like an oven. Electronics need air flow. I suggest putting some fans on the back to get you that air flow you need.


Fans blowing into the enclosure or out of it? (The receiver that is)


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

You could simply put them into the cabinet, but with any airflow to work, you need air in and air out. Personally, I would have a fan blowing air out of the cabinet at the top (heat rises), with a small opening for intake at the bottom (where air is cooler). Putting a fan on your amp will do little if the amp is inside a closed cabinet, and it will only serve to move warm air about rather than doing any actual cooling, which is why any fans should be added to the cabinet and not the amp. The added benefit will be the air being moved will benefit all components, not just the amp, and it will help reduce to heating effects other components will have on the amp.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

lsiberian said:


> Let's go with the Denon or Marantz.
> 
> I'm just not comfortable with an 805 in your rack.


But comparing the same priced Denon or Marantz to the 805 is like comparing a Suzuki swift to a Cadillac. If you can get one I would snatch it up very fast and never look back. I would even consider just placing it outside of the rack regardless to how much you want it hidden its just so much better of a receiver than anything even close to the price.


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## tnbug (Jun 25, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Jack is 100% correct in his assesment, I dont really think that you will get any benafit going with either of the receivers you have listed. You could go with this Onkyo 706 as it would be much better for your needs an has a decent power output and is THX certified.


If a tv has THX mode do you need a receiver with THX as well?
Thanks.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

tnbug said:


> If a tv has THX mode do you need a receiver with THX as well?
> Thanks.


If you want to take advantage of the THX surround modes then yes you do have to have a receiver that is THX certified. The display will not have any modes that you can use through your receivers speaker system.


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