# Linux HTPC



## toecheese

This  looks interesting. $300 is a little steep for a case and motherboard, but gives turnkey installation.

(going to revise this statement, that it is more of a deal, because it also includes a power supply among other tidbits)


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## Steve Williamson

I've never found a built in graphics that will handle full HDTV streaming, I have built several HTPC's and at the risk of sounding MS/Intel biased, it wasn't until I got a Viiv certified system that I was happy with the perfomance and reliability.

The system in the link does not even have a combined HTPC software, rather a miss match of freely available viewers, I hope who ever buys this setup has a degree in linux systems to set it up:scratchhead:


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## toecheese

I agree that Linux can be painful (I'm setting my linux server to be a media server, as well as a development server, web server, vpn server...).

In this case (ha!) they claim to be turnkey. Buy a TV tuner card, stick in the disk and go. 

I agree that onboard video is typically lame- but I'm not sure in this one. AMD with the AM2 chipset is very modern, and the nvidia drivers are excellent. If your experience with intragrated graphics has been of the Intel sort, I would understand, since their 'extreme' graphics was egregious by their marketing.

I am intrigued by this setup. One thing I'd like to make sure is that I could dual-boot it into windows as well 

Considering that I've seen just cases for $200, getting a barebones system for only $100 more is a deal.


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## toecheese

Here's an article on the integrated video card: http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2626


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## khellandros66

Once you you have Fedora loaded you can use their boot loader to istall Windows and other Linux systems on it. 

I have Suse on this machine and must say that I am more then impressed by it. I would like to buy this bare bones piece at some point. I think it would do well to use one of the new 750GB Perpendicular drives. Along with a nice Pioneer slim burner 4GB DDR2, and nice Dual Core AM2 processor.

For $300 this is an awesome find and I thank you Toecheese for posting this.

~Bob


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## Bruce

Steve Williamson said:


> I've never found a built in graphics that will handle full HDTV streaming, I have built several HTPC's and at the risk of sounding MS/Intel biased, it wasn't until I got a Viiv certified system that I was happy with the perfomance and reliability.
> 
> The system in the link does not even have a combined HTPC software, rather a miss match of freely available viewers, I hope who ever buys this setup has a degree in linux systems to set it up:scratchhead:



Here is additional info on the barebones system from LixSystems referenced above, as they also sell complete turn-key systems:

Complete linux FC5 DVD Install for ASUS A8N VM-CSM motherboard

This is an nvidia 6150 based solution (onboard) with both DVI and VGA output on the mb backplate and if you go check nvidia's website you will see that this onboard solution is almost as good as a separate 6600 PCIe video card. It includes MPEG2 hardware decoding and is really great at smooth 720p HD video display without problems (IIRC that's at a resolution of 1920x1080).

Intel has never had anything but garbage for onboard video (still has only garbage) so I'm not surprised at your experience if all you build is Intel.

I'm currently building a network of linux-based MythTV backend/servers and frontend/clients. My first frontend client is a 6150-AMD 939 based MSI K8NGM2-FID mATX and the first backend is a AMD 754 ECS nForce3-A with (2) 320Gb drives.


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## Steve Williamson

Bruce said:


> This is an nvidia 6150 based solution (onboard) with both DVI and VGA output on the mb backplate and if you go check nvidia's website you will see that this onboard solution is almost as good as a separate 6600 PCIe video card. It includes MPEG2 hardware decoding and is really great at smooth 720p HD video display without problems (IIRC that's at a resolution of 1920x1080).
> 
> Intel has never had anything but garbage for onboard video (still has only garbage) so I'm not surprised at your experience if all you build is Intel.
> 
> I'm currently building a network of linux-based MythTV backend/servers and frontend/clients. My first frontend client is a 6150-AMD 939 based MSI K8NGM2-FID mATX and the first backend is a AMD 754 ECS nForce3-A with (2) 320Gb drives.


A 6600 is the minimum I would recommend for HD playback and if the 6150 is nearly as good it will not cut it with current or planned HD formats.

I never stated that I only had Intel experiences, I have an AMD based HTPC sat next to me in my office, and two more around the house. I agree that Intel have had awful onboard graphics, but so have AMD so far, both companies are starting to address the problems with the latest chipsets. I have yet to try the 950 series.

From what I can gather from reading this forum, and others around, the HTPC section of most HT forums contain people without the necessary skills of setting up a linux implementation. The system will have to support more than just free skinny OS's.

Oh. 720P HD is 1280 x 720, 1080P is 1920 x 1080 :reading: . The onboard graphics will not handle 1080P which the new range of projectors from Sanyo and Panasonic will serve out. The graphics is already outdated


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## Bruce

Steve,

I would guess there are hundreds/thousands of 6150 users who would disagree with you about the 6150s capability for HD capable display. 

I do not think a majority of people (hazard a guess at <.05%) even have 1080p displays at this time.

I think your absolute statements about the capabilites of a 6150-based htpc is misleading and does a diservice to many who would find it a perfectly good solution.

I don't remember saying it was a future proof technology, and I don't believe in that type of purchase criteria anyway, as many products are on a 6 month product cycle.

By the way, the nvidia specs do say it will do 1080i and 1080p and I know many people using it at 1080i with great results.

In case you aren't aware, there are many XP based htpc sw frontends, like medio, beyondTV, MCE2005, etc that run just fine and are even sold as complete turn key htpcs with 6150 graphics. I happen to think linux is a more mature alternative, but not for everybody.

In case you didn't know it linux is the OS driving most if not all of the settop boxes out there.

Maybe things are different in Austrailia, but my perspective is from the US market.


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## khellandros66

Steve,

I think you are confusin the raw power for 3D vs HD Video. Bare in mind that the 6150 chipset has advanced MPEG 1,2, and 4 video codecs built into it. The fact that it can share up to 128MB ram and in some of the boards now 256MB. There is alot more to what makes this processor a great HTPC chip. The memory controller and advanced caching system allow up to 2048x1536 video, now thats 1,072,128 pixels more then 1080p....

HERE is a link to the 6150s structure and capabilities.

~Bob


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## Steve Williamson

Bob, I understand where you are coming from, however, I stil have to disagree with Bruce.

There are differing types of HD, the 1080P that Nvidia are proclaiming is mainly WMV-HD, not the more intensive h.264 that blu-ray and HD DVD utilise. This can double the processing power required to play back HD smoothly.

To hazard a guess on most topics he is trying to prove is senseless, I will try to keep things factual. What bit depth are you quoting when you state 2048 x 1536? HD has to conform to 32 bit colour, not 24.

The link you quoted in your response Bob, does not show any benchmarks for the HD playback of any of the test boards, only 3D and encoding (which is primarily processor).

I don't think my statements are misleading, I have pointed out the pitfalls of different types of HD content, not generalised them into one category. If you are one of the (guess) .05% (and growing) users, then you will need something with more grunt, how many people don't own a tv that will show 720P or 1080i.

What does linux running settop boxes, or any other CE equipement have to do with HD playback, it has nothing to do with the OS, Codecs, Processor, GPU and memory matter.


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## Bruce

Steve a few points:

1) Disagreeing is fine, that's how we all learn.

2) Linux is the title of this thread, and linux is used to run most of the satellite/cable HD source devices, including PVRs. Seems quite appropriate from this perspective to use linux as an OS for an htpc to me. A networked/integrated client/server system (say 3 clients and 2 servers) that has 6+ separate PVRs, offers an integrated menu system (MythTV) for controlling recorded and live MPEG2/MPEG4 video, DVD disc playing, recorded lossless audio (and lossy), picture database, integrated TV-Guide, weather forecasts, and web browsing sure seems like a pretty complete htpc solution to me, don't ya think ?

3) Sorry, not everybody is like you and needs the uber HD resolution of the day. Many will be able to use a 6150 based solution with what they have today and will be able add a higher performance PCIe video card later if need be. That fit's your defintion for future proofing doesn't it?

3) When you say "I've never found a built in graphics that will handle full HDTV streaming," you aren't really keeping things factual, you're just giving an opinion. It is well known on all the htpc forums that Intel has never had (still doesn't have) an onboard video solution that anybody could use for an htpc.

Frankly, I find your opinion a little too elitist, but that's OK because it's your opinion and NOT FACT.

nvidia 6150 and video card specs


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## Steve Williamson

1) Disagreeing is fine, that's how we all learn.

>>> Correct

2) Linux is the title of this thread, and linux is used to run most of the satellite/cable HD source devices, including PVRs. Seems quite appropriate from this perspective to use linux as an OS for an htpc to me. A networked/integrated client/server system (say 3 clients and 2 servers) that has 6+ separate PVRs, offers an integrated menu system (MythTV) for controlling recorded and live MPEG2/MPEG4 video, DVD disc playing, recorded lossless audio (and lossy), picture database, integrated TV-Guide, weather forecasts, and web browsing sure seems like a pretty complete htpc solution to me, don't ya think ?

>>> Linux is the title, the original thread mentioned a HTPC for sale, I merely mentioned that it was not complete and to run linux would take 3 years at night school, how long would it take to set up a system like the one you mention above? It takes me three days to find the right kernel version to use with a fax system

3) Sorry, not everybody is like you and needs the uber HD resolution of the day. Many will be able to use a 6150 based solution with what they have today and will be able add a higher performance PCIe video card later if need be. That fit's your defintion for future proofing doesn't it?

>>> Only if PCIe is still around, the amount of times I have had to change the motherboard to have the latest graphics card isn't funny any more.

3) When you say "I've never found a built in graphics that will handle full HDTV streaming," you aren't really keeping things factual, you're just giving an opinion. It is well known on all the htpc forums that Intel has never had (still doesn't have) an onboard video solution that anybody could use for an htpc.

>>> the statement that "I've never found a built in graphics that will handle full HDTV streaming" is factual, I haven't found one yet, Intel or AMD based, had I stated there are no onboard chips capable, that would be untrue, as I have not tried them all. Again I state that I have both Intel and AMD systems at my house.

Frankly, I find your opinion a little too elitist, but that's OK because it's your opinion and NOT FACT.

>>> Thank you, I am elitist, it is only because of people like me that keep buying the latest and greatest that you can pick up bargains like the 6150

If this keeps up, this thread will be longer than Tommy's theatre build :bigsmile:


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## Bruce

Steve Williamson said:


> 3) When you say "I've never found a built in graphics that will handle full HDTV streaming," you aren't really keeping things factual, you're just giving an opinion. It is well known on all the htpc forums that Intel has never had (still doesn't have) an onboard video solution that anybody could use for an htpc.
> 
> >>> the statement that "I've never found a built in graphics that will handle full HDTV streaming" is factual, I haven't found one yet, Intel or AMD based, had I stated there are no onboard chips capable, that would be untrue, as I have not tried them all. Again I state that I have both Intel and AMD systems at my house.


I just have to point out that in at least 5 of the htpc forums on which I post, the AMD + nvidia 6150 based mATX motherboard solution for htpc HD video playback is extremely popular and well thought of. Many more people DON'T have 1080p capability than do, but this will change over time (that's what the PCIe16 slot is good for). With onboard gigabit ethernet, SATA, and RAID this is an inexpensive all-in-one mATX solution, even if you don't think so. :bigsmile: 

There is also unanimous agreement that Intel has $hit for onboard video solutions (terrible HD video), even with today's NEW Core 2 Duo processors (which are good for htpc).

So it appears many consumers disagree with your characterization of HD video playback from the nvidia 6150. 
*The views of the Many outweighs the views of the One!!!*:bigsmile: 

By the way, I have no commercial connection or interest in what people use, I'm just a interested educated consumer.


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## khellandros66

Steve Williamson said:


> Bob, I understand where you are coming from, however, I stil have to disagree with Bruce.
> 
> There are differing types of HD, the 1080P that Nvidia are proclaiming is mainly WMV-HD, not the more intensive h.264 that blu-ray and HD DVD utilise. This can double the processing power required to play back HD smoothly.


The 6150 handles 32bit, and yeah it has no issues, I have a friend from my old forum/review site who built a Fedora box with the 6150
and from what he says on his new 42in 1080p LCD he has no issues with WMV-HD (720p,1080i), Quicktime HD, OTA ATSC or DVD. In fact he plans to add the BD-RW from Sony when he has a chance. This chipset in very underated as most assume that because its an onboard chip its junk or no up to par. It does have a 300Mhz/14bit RAMDAC which is faster then the ones from NSV and similar to ones in HD-DVR boxes. 

Don't get me wrong we all understand you stance in that there are card far more capable and probaly handle multitasking of HD material better. I mean look at Matrox, NV Quatro, ATi AIW.. but also factor in the extra heat, power requirements and etc these card introduce. I just want everyone to know that by no means is the 6150 a underpar choice for HD material albeit, ATSC OTA HD,DVD, WMV-HD, Quicktime Pro, HD-DVD, or BD-RM/RW. Now Nvidia is planning a new chipset based on the 7000 series chip which will have a new onboard VC-1 MPEG 4 codec to run HD-DVD and BD-RM/RW ever the better.

~Bob


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## Steve Williamson

Bruce said:


> *The views of the Many outweighs the views of the One!!!*:bigsmile:
> .


You don't belong to the flat earth society do you, sorry to hear about Charles Johnson :boxer:


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## Bruce

Steve Williamson said:


> You don't belong to the flat earth society do you . .


Nope, Just an original startrek fan, thought for sure you'd catch that :rofl:


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## Steve Williamson

Vulcan then :nerd:


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## toecheese

Steve Williamson said:


> A 6600 is the minimum I would recommend for HD playback and if the 6150 is nearly as good it will not cut it with current or planned HD formats.
> 
> I never stated that I only had Intel experiences, I have an AMD based HTPC sat next to me in my office, and two more around the house. I agree that Intel have had awful onboard graphics, but so have AMD so far...]
> 
> I disagree- nVidia's onboard graphics have been at least on par with mainstream graphics cards. The nForce2 boards had GeForce4MX graphics- two years later, Intel Extreme came out and proved the only extreme was the absurdity of the name. The 6150 is supposed to be an excellent card, albeit not nearly has powerful as the latest generation of dedicated video cards.


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## Steve Williamson

toecheese said:


> I disagree- nVidia's onboard graphics have been at least on par with mainstream graphics cards.


Which mainstream graphics have they been on par with at the same time of release apart from the low end workstation cards?

No one cares about intels extreme, I wish people would stop bringing that chipset up :wits-end:


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## Bruce

Steve,

I think the issue is that Intel has never had, or doesn't have, and doesn't seem to have any near-term plans for any onboard graphics chipset that is worth using for an htpc system. 
Q.E.D.

I wonder if the mb makers will provide an nvidia solution for the Intel C2D soon ? 

I just don't have an interest in changing to DDR2 memory at the exhorbitant prices memory is up to these days. Got plenty of DDR dual channel kits and a few 939 mbs, which means for the near term I'm stuck with 939 or 939 X2.


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## toecheese

I was able to run current video games on an nForce 2 motherboard when it came out. As far as I know, Intel has never been able to do this- so the assertion that AMD-based boards (guess I need to separate that Intel makes its own processors and chipsets, while AMD has other vendors) are as bad as Intel was wrong.

Back on topic- but still disagreeing, I don't think it takes years of night school to set up a LINUX system. If you can build a PC, you can most likely get it to run. If you can't then, buy a Windows Media PC and be done with it.

This system I mentioned must be flying off the shelves, because they've raised the price twice since I posted it. I haven't pulled the trigger on buying it because... I have trouble opening my wallet until I"m fully satisfied on what I'm buying


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## Steve Williamson

Who made the assertion that AMD was as bad as Intel?


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## toecheese

Steve Williamson said:


> Who made the assertion that AMD was as bad as Intel?


Uh, you.




Steve Williamson said:


> . I agree that Intel have had awful onboard graphics, but so have AMD


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## Steve Williamson

There are differing levels of awful, Intel's are the worst of the awful range, AMD's are the best of the awful chipsets.


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## toecheese

Okay, I'll agree enough there.

So, I haven't bought this system yet- they've raised the price on it, so I'm going to wait for the next system. The dual-cores are very intruiging...


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## toecheese

Back to the arguement of embedded vid: Intel still sux0r.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35660


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