# New Place, fresh start



## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Hey all. Been a while. Im moving to a new place and as part of it Im remodeling the main basement romm which will be sort of an underground studio apartment. Ive got the demo pretty much done and Ive settled on what I think will be the best layout. I plan to make an order with Monoprice for speaker wire (250ft of 12/2 in-wall), wall plates and a cable for my sub pretty soon and Im hoping to build the wall structures this weekend. 

So its a little late now, but hopefully I can get some input on things like acoustic treatments, speaker/sub placement suggestions, wiring hints. Whatever comes up.

So the room: Its a basement with two concrete block walls on what will be the left and front (screen) side. Between the front and right walls, there is an angles section with a door leading to the utility room. The right side has a fairly large brick fireplace and the rear has a closet and bathroom. 

I have it roughed out on sketchup if someone has a way of posting that....

Im not looking to spend a fortune, but I do want to create a space that will afford me the best performance I can afford out of my system. Im building wall frames along the blockwork to insulate and mount drywall. Im wondering if there are any tips I should follow for that. I plan to glue the studs to the block to make the walls as solid as I can. Good idea? 

I should stop typing now, Im a bit tired and rambbly, but Ill try to update this with some visual media this weekend. 

Thanks for any help and patience I can get....


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

You should be able to just attach the SKP in a post. Or, you can embed a .jpg snapshot of the room.

Bryan


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Oh, nice. Never had to post a sketchup before. Ill try it this afternoon. Thanks Bryan.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Okay, posting from my phone so ive just got a few pics to share. This is how the room sits now, i forgot to take pics when it was actually empty.









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The screen wall has a window in it which ill need to plug. Im struggling with the construction of the wall frames for the block walls. Since the blockwork isnt quite square so ill have to space the frame away fron the block. Would it be best to try to attatch the frame firmly to the block or should i float the studs away and have the walls freestanding? I only went for 2x3 studs sine they are going against the block. Mistake? 

Im also considering replicating the angled wall segment thats on the right so my front stage is symmetrical. Is it realistic to make a bass trap out of such a structure?

im trying to figure out rough sub placement so i can run an lfe cable in the wall. Im leaning towards just having the lfe come out the middle of the front wall for maximum flexability. Id also like to run a speaker cable for a future sono sub. Once i post the exact layout, id like to see how closely we can guess where im going to want to put the sub.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Just tie the wall to the floor and joists above a tad away from the wall so you can keep things square.

As for the other wall, symmetry between you and the speakers from left to right is very important.

Bryan


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

bpape said:


> As for the other wall, symmetry between you and the speakers from left to right is very important.
> 
> Bryan


You mean speaker to listening position? Of course i plan to keep that tyipcally symetrical, but the shape of that front stage is kind of odd. Are you saying you think itd be worth it to build another false wall on the left side?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

All of the above. You had asked if you should mimic the odd shape on the other side. I'm saying yes.

Bryan


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Hmmmm... ill take some measurements to see if i can with where the window is on that wall. How important would you say that would be to do? Id prefer to be able to jus center things around the full width of the room if its not a major deal. Would you suggest fulling it with batting or something to use it as a bass trap or damp any resonence in the empty space?

im also to the point where i need to decide what im doing with the ceiling. I can sheetrock it, but are tiles better?

thanks for your input, bryan.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Hmmmm... ill take some measurements to see if i can with where the window is on that wall. How important would you say that would be to do? Id prefer to be able to jus center things around the full width of the room if its not a major deal. Would you suggest fulling it with batting or something to use it as a bass trap or damp any resonence in the empty space?

im also to the point where i need to decide what im doing with the ceiling. I can sheetrock it, but are tiles better?

thanks for your input, bryan.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Heres an oafishly crude sketchup of the layout. The block walls are the left and front walls as viewed from this angle and the fireplace is the reddish blob on the right. The I beam visible in the pics is 13ft from the screen wall (the 14' 4" block wall).










Let me know if theres anything else i should include. Im trying to get an idea of how much treatment and where its going to be most effective as well. I dont think Ill be able to replicate the angled wall in front unless its really going to be important. Mostly because its not only a HT, so the space is a concern, among other things.

EDIT: assuming I do not build the extra wall section, would I be best off centering my front stage in the room (IE off center on that fron wall) or centering it on the front wall (and have my left surround speaker closer than my right, among other wierd stuff)? Which is the less flawed compromise?

Thanks again for your help Bryan. Youre the cats meow.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Made progress last night on the left wall. Had to work around some issues but itll be framed up tonight or tomorrow afternoon. 

Still trying to figure out the ceiling. Tiles/panels would cos mor but are easier and allow some access to wiring, etc. However im not sure im a fan of how much high-mid frequency absorbtion they display. I could however use some dispersion panels in a grid ceiling. 

Looked more closely at the angled wall segment and its not feasable to replicate it on the other side but if its going to cause major headaches it could be possible to get rid of it entirely. Though i really do like the idea of non parallel surfaces.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

I assume the other end of the room is out as far as being the front? 

If so, yes, I would center things to the room width and not to the front wall that's skewed to the left.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

bpape said:


> I assume the other end of the room is out as far as being the front?
> 
> If so, yes, I would center things to the room width and not to the front wall that's skewed to the left.


Yeah, the back wall has the room entrance and bathroom door so thats kinda stuck as the back. Centering in the room might limit my speaker placement and screen size. Would i be able to comprimise a bit on it? Is there anything i can do to mitigate the effects of that shape? Come to think of it, what are the effects of that shape? I assume it would steer the image a bit.

Once i get the walls done ill move the speakers in and do some testing to see what i can get away with i suppose.

sorry for all the questions, bryan, and i really apreciate the help.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

No problem. If you get the speakers out from the wall a bit the impact of the shape will be minimized.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Okay, i fully expect to have them at least three feet from that wall, so thats good news. Im just worried that if my screen is off center on that wall it will drive my inner symmetry nazi nuts. 

Another annoying issue im having is where to run the speakerwire for mt future sub. I want to wire it in now but im not sure where itll end up. Should i do some testing with my rsw10 prior to putting up the sheetrock to get an idea or should i just assume its going to end up somewhere in the front leaft area?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

If you're just going to do a jack in the wall, you can have the flexibility to move provided you don't mind seeing the wire. I'm assuming it will have to go on the left due to the door on the right. Could end up along a side wall also. If it were me, I'd wire it to the left of center on the front wall. You also may want to run 2 cables to allow the flexibility to run multiple subs if desired which can help smooth response.

Bryan


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

I was planning to run 12/4 wire to a two speaker jack fo DVC sub, but i could use it for two seperate subs as well. Im thinking ill be doing either a15 or 18" sonosub, so hopefully one does the trick!


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Made some progress this weeked: finished framing the walls, planned out much of the electrical and mouted the lighting cans. Since its going to be a bedroom as well as a theater, im running two electrical systems. The outlets on the theater side will be split circuit so the top is part of one of the theater circuits and the bottom is a regular bedroom outlet. There will be two 20a circuits for my gear and future expansion. There will be whole-house surge supression and both cuircuits will hopefully get line conditioners. Ill post pics of the lighting layout when i can, but there will be four lighting circuits; two for the recessed cans, one for accent lighting and one for the bedroom side. 

Along with the progress, ive come upon some issues and questions. First off its seeming like less and less of a good idea to just cover up the screen wall windo with a semipermanent plug. Thoughts on this? Do i need to build a screen frame, space it from the wall and have some kind of cloth partition across the fron wall to block the window and gap from view? Kind of at a loss...


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

No thoughts on the window? Maybe im not using enough acronyms. Hehe. 

Anyway, all the speaker wire including a double run of 12-2 for a dvc sub and an lfe cable for my current active sub are run. Pics this evening of the progress.

im also starting to think of the design of the equipment rack, which likely wont be anything super fancy, but will hopefully look good from in the room.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Gah! Double post.:crying:


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Why are you thinking it's a bad idea on the window? Remember that a plug not only blocks light, but also acts to help minimize sound coming in from the outside.

Bryan


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

The plug would have to be taped and mudded in place, so I wouldnt be able to detect any moisture issues until it was too late. Im not finding much info on the topic though. Is this a common practice? I need a flat wall instead of the window some how or other.

Hah! Bryan, youre the only one who cares!! 

Electrical today, by the way.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

How about a plug that is slightly smaller than the opening and then using foam weatherstripping to tighten it up but still allow a tiny amount of air through to help with the moisture issue - then cover with cloth.... Normally, we would make the face of the plug larger than the opening so it can also seal against the wall and then you'd add another layer to the wall to make it all flush.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Cans Up. Thats hard to photograph. 









Screen wall complete with unwanted window.









Left wall. Note the tripple stud below the steel I beam. The I beam doesnt go very far into the block on that side so I figured a little extra beef couldnt hurt. Also, this is where my left side surround will go, so why not make it solid?


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

What I had envisioned for the plug really wouldnt be as much a plug as just sheetrocking over the window. I would put up 2X2 in the gap, insulate and just go right over it so I can paint my screen on. If the use of the room changes, the sheetrock can be cut out and removed with relative ease. The method you describe sounds like it would work best with existing construction, correct?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Careful with those can lights. Realize that those are huge holes in your room that will act as excellent sound paths for sound to get upstairs. Boxing around them with MDF and only having a hole large enough for the romex would help that. 

Bryan


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

If you're going to paint on it, what you described is more stable and likely more appropriate. If it was just an unused piece of the wall, then any slight movement wouldn't be a big deal.

Bryan


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Thats a good point about the light cans. Ill explore that solution. Just wired them though. it. Lol.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

After a bunch of staring at the wall, ive decided that some sort of a false wall will be needed to take care of my window problem. This will also let me move my speakers further from the walls and give unlimited freedom of absorbsion on the front wall. Im now researching how i should build it and what sort of screen ill need to construct. 

Ive also come up with a nice looking solution to the funky fireplace wall. Ill try to get some pics up of that tonight. It will be part of the soffit system im working on for the I beam and will incorperate accent lighting.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

After a bunch of staring at the wall, ive decided that some sort of a false wall will be needed to take care of my window problem. This will also let me move my speakers further from the walls and give unlimited freedom of absorbsion on the front wall. Im now researching how i should build it and what sort of screen ill need to construct. 

Ive also come up with a nice looking solution to the funky fireplace wall. Ill try to get some pics up of that tonight. It will be part of the soffit system im working on for the I beam and will incorperate accent lighting.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Cut the pieces for the light can boxes today. Theyll need to be glued since the joists arent perfectly square. 

Im having a screen size crisis. This I beam is making things difficult. Id like to mount the PJ in front of the beam so I can build a hushbox into the soffit around the beam. this also lets me mount it closest to the ceiling. However, Im limited to about 11' of throw with a false wall. I *could* mount the pj behind the beam, but Id loose too much headroom, both with the image and the PJ itself. I could also mount it to the meam, but the same problems persist. Neither option allows use of a hushbox, either.:rant:


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Light can boxes are a huge pain since the joists arent all square or straight.

Working on the design of the soffit around the I beam and added cove lighting to the design. 

ADD is a real pain.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

If you build the boxes and then just tie them back physically to the joists, you're losing 1/2 the isolation. They need to be hung via isolation clips from the joists to physically decouple them.

Bryan


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

I understand they wont be isolated, but the physical dimensions of the lights wont allow me to make a complete enclosure. All i can realistically pull off is to put a three sided baffle around them mounted to the joists and meeting the sheetrock. My ceiling wont e isolated, so i think of this as replacing the sheetrock holes where the lights will protrude. Am i wasting my efforts here.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Not at all. You're still at least stopping direct access from sound from getting into the entire joist cavity and restricting it to just the box size. You're also adding mass which will help to reduce transmission. You're just not isolating it structurally.

Bryan


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Would you say i should insulate inside the boxes as well? I would imagine so. The cans are ic rated. I plan to gle the out of them as well since the joists arent straight and there are gaps. Plus i wouldnt want them rattling.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

You can use a little in there but I wouldn't fill it. The mass is primarily what's going to stop the sound transmission. Use just enough to damp things a little bit.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Well, remember that angled wall that was causing problems? I took it down. Had to come down so i could bouil a floating wall across the brick. This opens up my speaker placement options and uncrouds the screen wall. Im considering building a false wall to cover the window and maybe let me do a convertable scope scrfeen down the road. Amazing what an extra 32" does. The floor is all screwy in that area and i have to re-engineer my gear rack, but between the floating wall and the exra width i think is worth it.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

That extra space can definitely open up some additional options and give you a lot more flexibility.

Bryan


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

We got the floating wall which masks most of the chimney brick and the new wall section done yesterday. Im working on cable management and possibly begining construction on a diy slide out equipment rack today. 4 of the 6 light cans and their sound isolation boxes have to be moved since the screen center just moved a stud to the right.

Its a bit of a mess in there so i havent posted any pics yet, but ill get some up.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)




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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Quick question: if you look at the first pic in the previous post, youll notice that to the right side, below and right of the I beam, theres a wall section. This contacts the kitchen and sounds like a screen door. The qusetion is what i should use to seal bbretween the brick and the stud wall. I have butyle sealant and great stuff. Im also thinking about two layers of sheetrock on both sides of the wall and maybe resiliant channel for that whole wall. Also investigating what to do with the ceiling.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Oh Bryan! Lol. Im getting prepared for drywall and im trying to decide what type of soundproofing solution i should employ. The block walls shouldnt need anything right? The ceiling and small part of the fireplace wall that ajoins the kitchen are where i was planning to focus but the back wall meets the stairs and entry, so i guess something should be done there. The question is how does one finish a wall hung on reillient channel? Once i seal the corners can i tape them up like normal? Is it as effective to just double up on drywall with green glue and otherwise build normally? That way i can at least hang stuff on the wall. Speakers gotta go back there and such.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

SSo ive beenso ive been stalled out with distractions and issues for a while, but im hoping to start drywall in a week or so. The ceiling does need some soundproofing solution so i need to figure out my approach. 

With res channel, do i just seal the edges with silenseal and paint or do i still tape and mud in the corners? Can i hang my projector? How would i soffit the Ibeam? Would i be better off with double thick drywall insted?

i think ive come up with a solution for the front wall as well. I didnt want to permanently seal up the window, so i think ill build a plug and hang the screen off the wall, then basically have a curtain across the whole wall. That will let me treat the wall without worryingt about looks and give me a screen masking system all att once. Also it will hide the ugly baseboard radiator and all the wall plates.

something else im putting thought into is how im going to treat the room. I know im going to have bass problems but im limited in what i can do with traps by the cabinet in the front right corner, both rear corners are kind of tough too. Will i gegt much bennefit from doing wall/ceiling corners? Im planning on builing a hanging cloud and diffusor pannels as well and will probably need some help with placement. My biggest challeng with treatment seems to be the rooms aesymmetry.

Ill try to get more pics of the problem aeas tonight, hopefully that will help clarify what im having troubles with.

little bit of wiring left and ill start insulating soon.

und


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Sorry I missed your earlier post.

Be very careful with RC. It's really easy to short out with a couple wrong screw placements. Hat channel is a much better option IMO. 

Double drywall provides the mass to improve isolation and also lowers the resonant frequency of the structure which is a good thing. When doing double drywall, just caulk the joints but make sure you do the drywall in an alternating manner so that you have more of a Z shaped seam rather than a straight path. 

Build the soffit after the drywall is up to allow penetrations for HVAC, lights, wiring, etc. without putting holes in the sealed room envelope. Just make sure you have another channel to hang from where it's parallel to the soffit.

Same as above for the PJ. Have a couple extra pieces of channel to allow mounting only to the channel through the drywall.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks Bryan. Luckily i dont have any hvac to deal with, just hot water radiant which was the cause of m delays. I had to replace and relocate my radiators.

The soffit is to go around the I beam which hangs below the joists. I cant really visualize how i will maintain a sealed envelope while allowing the drywall to float in that area. Ill take some pics tonight to illustrate.

the area around the fireplace will be most problematic due to the way the kitchen is sunken 2' below the normal floor level. Ive also got the unevenness of the brick to deal with at joints with wall studs and such. Is great stuf or similar spray foam a suitable solution to these wider gaps where silenseal or butyle caulk wont close the gap?

also, if i do float the cieling with rs or similar, how should i seal arount my light can boxes withoy shorting the system? Would thick neoprene weatherstripping work?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Suspend the boxes around your can lights using isolation clips. Seal the face of the box to the drywall with caulk.

Bryan


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Kinda too late for that, after all the work it was to put those boxes in wrong, im not pulling them down to do it again. Theyre kinda stuck. Lol. I dont want to build everything else to a higher level than these boxes will allow and have them ruin all the efforts. Will i still be able to get good results with what ive built or is it going to completely nullify whatever else i do?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

You're still minimizing the contact area so there is still benefit to isolating the ceiling. You can do some weatherstripping that's compressed but not too tightly.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Thats doable. 

Did you have any thoughts on what i should try to do around the fireplace? Im also worried about the equipment rack and the stairs above it. I was thinking i could basically do the same thing to the underside of the steps as the cieling. Anything else i should try? I doubt the equip rack is going to be perfectly sealed.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Also, i know itst pricey, but greenglue seems to have the ease of use and reliable performance to make up for it. Considering the limitations of the less than ideal light boxes, would it be worth my money to use GG in conjunction with isolatin the drywall or could i just pick one. Budget is pretty constrained, so im just trying to get what i can out of as little [email protected] as i can get away with.

thanks!


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Insulating today i realised something: since im doing a curtain across the front wall to cover the window, six outlets and the radiator from view, drywall isnt an aesthetic neccesity. I was discussing the treatments typically employed in an HT with my roommate and it occured to me! Tthe front wall is dead right now. Not broadband i understand, but it seems i could just skip the drywall and cover the insulation with a light cheap fabric to hold it in place and allow it to keep the front wall pretty much dead.

Does this make sense or am i letting my cheapness go too far?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

From the standpoint of absorption, it's fine. From the standpoint of 
isolation, you're losing most of the mass on the front wall. Remember that 
sound getting in is going to impact the overall ambient noise level in the 
room which is the limiting factory for dynamic range capability of any given 
system.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

The front wall is cinder block, but I agree, there wouldnt be anything to stop noise leaking through the ceiling. I just cant ignore how much it would cost to accomplish the same amount of absorption once the wall is covered.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

I'm also concerned with stopping sound getting into the room, not just getting out of the room which has no impact on internal sound in the room.

All a matter of priorities. Personally, I'd definitely drywall and then add absorption on the front of that. The drywall wall will provide isolation as well as giving a small amount of bass control via acting as a sort of membrane absorber.



Bryan


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

In my case; both directions of sound isolation are of more or less equal importance. I wasnt aware a drywall wall could help with bass control. Is this only with RC or will i get the same effect with direct attatchment to the studs? The reason i ask is that i was only planning on doing the ceiling and right side walls with rc and/or double drywall and green glue. 

Thanks again bryan!


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

With double drywall, green glue, clips, channel, etc. - if you're not going to do all the surfaces, don't bother with any of them. Sound will find the least isolated path and get through. Even walls next to concrete foundations require it. Sound will flank through the drywall, up between the studs and the concrete, and up through the floor above.

The drywall whether on a channel (don't recommend RC BTW) or on a stud acts like a membrate which will absorb over a narrower, more tuned range as opposed to a broadband absorber where you are counting on gas flow being impeded and turned into heat.

Bryan


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Update pics! Not much to look at, but what the .



















so thats the beab and its interface with the joists. Not sure if this helps explain my issues or not.


Heres the part of the wall that adjoins the kitchen. There are gaps in the brick through which you can see light. I filled the gaps on the inside with greatstuff since i couldnt get acoustical sealant in there. It cut the amount of sound comming through almost entirely. I still plan to do an extra layer of drywall on the kitchen side as well as seal the edges of both layers with silenseal. 









Front wall and ceiling fluffy pics today.



Heres the


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

Alright, that info does change things a bit. Why was it you dont like res channel? Ill have to do some further cost assessment. Ill definately try to seal the room off as well as possible whatever route i tak, i imagine that would be helpful with upper frequencies. Im mostly worried about lower frequencies at this poit due to my sub plans. :yikes:


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Low frequencies is exactly why you need the additional mass on all the walls. That and the decoupling are what stop bass transmission.

The RC is very very easy to short out all your work with a few misplaced/too long screws. RSIC-1 or RSIC-V and hat channel perform better and are pretty much impossible to mess up unless you're trying to put up drywall with 3" screws...

Bryan


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