# Choosing a home theater system for a small 12x14 crowded room



## Gemseeker

Hi, 
I'm slowly upgrading my ancient equipment. First came the Panasonic BMP BD60 Blu-ray player, then the Samsung LN40B650 TV. I got an HP E-140f computer with an i5 processor, 1TB memory and 8 GB RAM to stream Hulu and Crunchyroll (anime). 

Since my last TV was a tube TV, now I need a sound system, something I've never had before. I'm not into gaming, and base vibrations give me terrible migraines, although I LOVE music and agree that music doesn't sound right if you can't hear the deep notes-I just have trouble with the vibrations. However, I seriously want a 7.1 surround sound system. 

So. The choices are overwhelming. The room I live in (an apartment; I have neighbors I don't want to bother) is not only small-12x14 feet-all the walls have bookcases lining them, as my room is a combination bedroom/library/den. So my room is, in effect, actually a few feet smaller.

I've been doing some research online. Acoustics-wise, the bookcases may actually improve the acoustics, as I have the books pushed back to make room along the front for various resin/plastic figurines, which ought to act to reduce echoes, is that right?

Also, my room has wall-to-wall carpeting, a twin bed, a small Laziboy recliner (cloth-covered, not leather, if that makes a difference) and a flat-topped particle-board computer table with 23" flat-screen monitor. There are two windows (one opposite the door, the other on the wall between that window and the door-wall), covered with heavy lined drapes that do not reach the floor (the bottom 2 1/2 feet are bare wall, to allow for fresh air due to severe allergies). 

The effect of all this wall-covering stuff and furniture is that you notice an immediate sound-muffling quality when you step through the doorway, which is a plus in my book since it means it acts as a buffer between me and my apartment neighbors. 

I want a 7.1 surround sound, which I think will work as the seating is approximately in the center of the room. 
I have no experience and not much inclination to fiddle with wiring, so I was thinking of going with a Home Theaters in a Box, HTiB, if I can get something of decent quality. Since it's a small room, with (I think) good acoustics(?) I won't need an extravagant system, right? Also, I'm paranoid about reliability.

So how should this affect my choice of home theater components? Any words of advice will be welcome! onder: 

Gemseeker


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## bxbigpipi

I have the onkyo hts 7300 7.1, and it does a fabulous job! Wires are color coded and it sounds amazing!!


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## bxbigpipi

How much are you looking to spend?


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## rab-byte

I work for MHT so I'll list stuff I know we carry. 

DefTech pc600 (5.1) package add DefTech pm800 for front LR

Marantz slim AVR

That would be a good starting point. 

If you went 5.1 you could step down the AVR and drop the 800s. That would come in at about 1200. 

Now that's just shooting from the hip. There are far better sounding systems out their but 1 your room is small and 2 I don't know your budget. 

If music is first surround second I might suggest simply going to a store with some CDs and listening to your options. Once you pick your stereo sound work with the salesman to help select good matches for your surrounds and center.


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## Jon Liu

Welcome to the Shack! It is generally better to have a good 5.1 system rather than a mediocre 7.1 setup. But again, this is all dependent on your budget. I think the more you can spend the better, but at a certain point diminishing returns starts to drastically kick in. Of course, this is not really applicable until you get to the higher end stuff. Still, let us know how much you want to spend and we'll help you out further!


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## TypeA

Welcome to Home Theater Shack


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## gdstupak

It doesn't matter how good your room accoustics might be, an entry level sound system will still sound like an entry level system. If you want decent sound you have to buy a decent sounding system.
Since you LOVE music and live in an apartment not wanting to disturb neighbors, I would suggest buying big bookshelf speakers, or small tower speakers and skip the subwoofer. 
The only way I would recommend using a subwoofer in an apartment is if you use small bookshelf speakers that need a sub to play the bass properly. If not using a subwoofer, you can set your AVR so that all LFE (the signal normally for the sub) will be routed to your main speakers.

Here are 2 examples of systems with a lower and a higher price point, let us know what kind of budget fits you:

1. (more expensive) PSB
_main speakers_SB Image B6 bookshelf speakers $439/pr (the Image B6's are near the bottom right side of this website http://www.saturdayaudio.com/picturepages/psb_bstock.htm ).
_surround speakers_SB Image B4 compact bookshelf speakers $264/pr (the Image B4's are on the same website directly under the Image B6's).

2. (less expensive) Pioneer
_main speakers_ioneer SP-BS41-LR bookshelf speakers $170/pr ( http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS...S6DE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332915332&sr=8-1 ).
_surround speakers_ioneer SP-21-LR bookshelf speakers $80/pr ( http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS...WZE4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1332915524&sr=8-2 ).


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## drdoan

Welcome to the Forum. Have fun. Dennis


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## Gemseeker

I have no set limit, but although quality and reliability are important, but I don't want to spend crazy amounts of money, either. I would not feel comfortable spending more than $400 or so. 

I will be using this system 85% movie, 13% music, 2% audiobooks, more or less. 

Thanks for responding


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## Gemseeker

n


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## Gemseeker

rab-byte
Thanks for getting back to me. I'm only looking to spend roughly $400, as I will mostly (85%) be using this system to watch movies. 

I was looking at 7.1 partly because I'd heard that 7.1 systems were supposed to have a higher average build quality than the average 5.1 system, and partly because of the increasing numbers of 7.1-tracked blu-ray movies being sold. I don't want to have to upgrade again for at least ten years. 

My favorite movie has someone rolling a wheeled chair from one side to the other, behind the listener. Would this sound right with 5.1?


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## Gemseeker

John Liu, 
Thanks for answering. As to whether I should go for a 5.1 or a 7.1, I'm thinking future-proofing here. 

Also, my favorite movie is in 7.1. For example, there are explosions with various glass and metal bits hitting all around you and another scene with someone rolling a wheeled chair from one side to the other, behind the listener. Would this sound right with 5.1? 

My budget's in the $400 price range, give or take $100, counting wire and tools, etc.


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## Gemseeker

Hi, gdstupak,

CAN I skip the subwoofer? I know when I turn the base down in my car it sounds weird sometimes. I'm always adjusting it up or down to match songs that have lots of treble or base, but sometimes I seem to have the choice between vibrate or off, no in-betweens. 

Would no subwoofer make the base sound wrong? (Not that I would mind spending less money, mind you, and certainly I'd be happy to not have to trip over the thing in my moderately cluttered room...)


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## gdstupak

I can't say that I've ever heard that a 7.1 system has better build quality than a 5.1. Usually the 7.1 just adds 2 more of the same surround speakers.

8 speakers for $400? If you can find a 7.1 set for that price just go ahead and get it because even if you had to decide between 2 or 3 different sets, I assume they would all sound like $400 sets, not good enough to tell any difference between them.


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## gdstupak

Gemseeker said:


> Hi, gdstupak,
> CAN I skip the subwoofer?


Good main speakers should be able to play bass appropriately. I suggested skipping the subwoofer because you didn't want to bother neighbors. A proper subwoofer plays very low frequencies that travel through walls even at very low volumes.

With a budget of $400 for a 7.1 system, you won't get good, proper mains, nor will you get a proper sub. So I'm not sure what to recommend

Not having low bass and sub bass doesn't sound wrong, it just won't sound full and exciting.


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## gdstupak

Gemseeker said:


> My favorite movie has someone rolling a wheeled chair from one side to the other, behind the listener. Would this sound right with 5.1?


If set up properly with proper equipment, it should sound great with 5.1.
Would it be noticeably different and better with 7.1?...Maybe, maybe not.

I have been very pleased with 5.1 from 1995-2009. Then when I had the money to upgrade, I added speakers for a 7.1 set up. I never did an A/B comparison between the two different set ups. I don't know if it's any different or better, but I always use the 7.1 because I do have it and I tell myself it should be better.

If I had to start from scratch today with a low budget, I would start with a smaller set up of a 2.1 or 2.0 or 3.0 with better speakers. Then I would add more speakers as I got the money.


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## Gemseeker

Oh, and one more thing: the distance from my TV stand to the bottom of the TV screen is only about 6¼ inches. I didn't realize they'd make speakers bigger than that, but I can't do what some people do and start drilling holes in the walls of my apartment to mount it over the TV. 

I plan to get speaker stands or use bookcases for the side speakers.


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## gdstupak

If you can deal with 5.1 right now, instead of 7.1, I would highly recommend this Pioneer set for $399:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Speakers/Home+Theater+Speakers/SP-PK21BS

The sub in this system probably wouldn't play the lower sub frequencies very loud and you could keep the sub's volume down a bit.

Although this center speaker is probably too tall for you, unless you can find some way of putting the center speaker above the TV without drilling holes.

OR

If you wanted to get bigger main speakers and skip the sub, you could get these Pioneer tower main speakers and surround speakers (skipping the sub would bring the price down):

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Home-Theater-Systems/SP-PK51FS


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## Gemseeker

Hi,
I took a look at the Pioneer sets you suggested. I do not have the floorspace for tower speakers; my TV is squeezed in between a bureau and a window. For the PK 21bs-where did you find out how tall the center speaker is? I didn't see a specs sheet. 

I am of two minds about having a subwoofer. I don't want to disturb my apartment neighbors, and when visiting a friend's house I used to get migraines and this weird irritated-skin feeling on the back of my neck when we watched TV with his subwoofer on, but when he turned it off I could definitely tell that the deepest notes were missing. Music I was familiar with didn't sound right at all. My old tube TV had better sound than I ever thought! But since I never had headaches from watching the tube TV, that means it's possible to hear very deep notes without being forced to feel them as well, right? 

From the reading I've been doing, it seems the basic assumption is that even for a small room like mine, (I measured-with all my bookcases it's 10x11) that people are going to want to blast their TVs. Well, my Samsung TV's volume goes up to "100" units. I've never been able to watch it louder than 22, and even THAT was uncomfortably loud during certain scenes. 

I certainly don't need a home theater for the power-just that magical surround-directionality. And the crispness that might mean I don't have to watch mumbling American actors subtitled like I do now. Even my computer's $10 powered speakers sound great when compared to my TV, even if they can't play the deepest notes and have only a 6-foot cord between them. Are you sure there aren't any decent 7.1 (or 5.1, I guess) sets out there for those of us who truly do not need a very powerful setup and already have a blu-ray player that does Dolby HD Master Audio?


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## Jon Liu

5.1 systems done right definitely can sound better than a 7.1 system done wrong. That said, a proper 2-channel system done right can even sound better than a mediocre 5.1 or 7.1 setup. It's all about taking the time to find the proper placement for the speakers. Of course, 7.1 done right can improve the sound, very much so. I've spent most of my life upgrading my home theater experience, and I think what you're asking for is a good "Starting Point." It's just hard with a small budget to be able to suggest something that is going to give you that "magical" experience, but a definite starting point is definitely something we can suggest.

Here are some other suggestions:

Onkyo SKS-HT540
Onkyo SKS-HT870
Sony HT-SS360


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## TypeA

Owners have gushed about the Martin Logan systems. I would break that budget and spend $300-$400 on their 5.1 system and $200-$300 on an AVR. Perhaps someone can recommend a good AVR in that price range but I dont think you can go wrong with the MLT-2 as speakers.

http://www.amazon.com/MartinLogan-M...2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1333941467&sr=1-2

I recommend the MLT-2 just because of its extensive reviews but you can save $100 and go with the older MLT-1.

http://www.amazon.com/Martin-Logan-...1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1333941467&sr=1-1

Neither system will be real powerful, should be the perfect dimensions for your small room and tight install spaces.


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## gdstupak

Gemseeker said:


> For the PK 21bs-where did you find out how tall the center speaker is? I didn't see a specs sheet.


The Pioneer center speaker, SP-C21, appears to be 7.9" tall according to Amazon. I guess that's too tall for your situation.



Gemseeker said:


> But since I never had headaches from watching the tube TV, that means it's possible to hear very deep notes without being forced to feel them as well, right?


I could be wrong but I highly doubt your old tv played very deep notes (at least what we would consider very deep notes). The lower the notes, the more it is felt rather than heard. I would consider very deep notes to be well under 50hz which is what a true subwoofer does best, these lower frequencies are definitely felt as much as heard. 
I would say the larger bookshelf speakers such as the aforementioned Pioneer SP-BS21-LR (plays down to 65hz... http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS21-LR-Watt-2-Way-Speaker/dp/B004MEWZE4/ref=dp_cp_ob_e_title_0 ), or even better, the SP-BS41-LR (plays down to 55hz... http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS41-LR-Watt-2-Way-Speaker/dp/B0045US6DE ) would cover the same frequency range as your old tv did.


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## Gemseeker

55Hz? That's nice to know for a point of reference. I just did a quick hearing test on another website-not professionally done, I know, but just to give me the idea of what notes under 55Hz sound like. The site went down to 30Hz, which sounded very quiet (through my $10 computer speakers, no sub), a deep, beautiful sound like what I imagine a gong sounds like. 

You said 'deep notes are what a subwoofer does best'-does that mean other speakers (like a 3.0 setup) will also send out notes in this range? Or close to it?

I'm planning to go out to listen to home theater setups-is there any kind of guide out there that will tell me what I'm to listen for? I understand that audiophiles have some kind of standard that most people don't know about, but that guides them as to their speakers of choice.


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## gdstupak

Gemseeker said:


> You said 'deep notes are what a subwoofer does best'-does that mean other speakers (like a 3.0 setup) will also send out notes in this range? Or close to it?


How low a 3.0 setup goes is determined by how good of main speakers you use (usually, the bigger the speaker, the bigger the sound and the lower they will play). Same for a 3.1 setup, the better the sub (usually bigger), the lower it will play.
But that's why I am advising using bigger bookshelf speakers without a sub. Good bookshelf speakers will still play the lower bass notes, but not too loud to disturb the neighbors.

A note about a speaker's frequency response. 
Those Pioneer speakers are rated down to 55hz. But that doesn't mean that they won't play lower than 55hz, you will still hear sounds below 55hz, they just won't be as loud as the frequencies played above 55hz.
Like your computer speakers. I don't know what your using, but I highly doubt the manufacturer's frequency response range is all the way down to 30hz, but they still play it loud enough for you to hear it.


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## rab-byte

A speakers frequency rang is a slope with extreme dips at the low and high points a subwoofer has those dips much lower in frequency the speakers and sub ranges should "cross over" at a point were the overlapping dips can compensate for each other.


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## Gemseeker

Oh, I've seen pictures of frequency-arcs on a graph. Now the word 'crossover' makes more sense. Funny how a visual image helps you understand something auditory, lol! 

In that vein, I put up some pics of my room to demonstrate my space issues. When I moved in, I used graph paper, taking into account natural sunlight and lamplight (for display purposes, as I have a rather large collection of figurines and such) along with light oak wood to give the room as wide-open a feel as possible. I'd like oak finish on my speakers, too, if at all possible. 

http://s638.photobucket.com/albums/uu105/EloquentQuill/My Room 2012/?themeSaved=3252416


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## gdstupak

Making room for a bigger, better center channel speaker:

Maybe something could be placed under your tv so that it will create a bit more space between the cabinet and the bottom of the tv.

Consider that the quality of the center speaker is very, very important since it carries a lot of the sound, and most of the dialogue. And the center speaker needs to acoustically match the other speakers for good surround sound cohesion. In other words, when voices and other sounds pan left and right between the left, center, and right speakers, the audio (timbre) should sound the same from speaker to speaker.


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## gdstupak

Gemseeker said:


> I'm planning to go out to listen to home theater setups-is there any kind of guide out there that will tell me what I'm to listen for?


Earlier you mentioned wanting better speakers to get better, more intelligible dialogue. Find a movie that has poor quality dialogue and take that to the store to test speakers. See if any of the speakers help to make the dialogue more intelligible for you.
Another point is that you want to test the sound of the speakers, not the sound of the AVR (Audio Video Receiver). So make sure that the AVR is not coloring the sound with unnecessary processing (i.e. Audyssey room correction off, bass and treble neutral...). Most modern AVR's have a setting called DIRECT mode, this mode will automatically turn off most of the unnecessary processing, so turn on the DIRECT mode if possible.

This brings up another point, I have been suggesting a 5.0 speaker set that would cost approximately $330.
Would you still be willing to pay another $200-$300 for the AVR? 
Or are you definitely needing everything (speakers & AVR) for $400? 

If inspiration hits you while audio shopping at the stores and you do buy speakers and/or an AVR, do not let the salesman guilt you into buying overly expensive cables and wire (Monster brand). We can guide you through that process to keep it as cheap as possible.


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## phreak

gdstupak said:


> If inspiration hits you while audio shopping at the stores and you do buy speakers and/or an AVR, do not let the salesman guilt you into buying overly expensive cables and wire (Monster brand). We can guide you through that process to keep it as cheap as possible.


You can take your savings on cables and invest it in better speakers. No harm in getting a quote for the cables from your local retailer, but check back here before buying. You will be amazed at how overpriced some retailers are.


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## Gemseeker

gdstupak--I'm actually thinking of getting a different TV stand to bring my TV lower, not higher. I get a lot of headaches and having to crane my neck looking up at it compounds the issue. Of course, the shorter the stand, the wider (there's that space issue again!) and the less space for A/V components. And TV stands aren't cheap, either, even used ones. And of course, nobody seems to make them in oak-color...

And although I know about how speakers need to 'match' each other, timbrewise, how does one determine that?

I have no set price limit, but I don't want to pay any more than I have to, either. I do a lot of research before I buy anything expensive. In my experience, the best thing to do is look for the mid-to-high-end name brands and then buy their budget-priced items. I'm not looking for top performance as much as I am for stuff that won't break within 5 years. 

Everybody says 'anything is better than your TV's speakers'. The only other things I have had to compare them to are my computer's speakers and a friend's cheapo Philips TV and HTiB (with what even I can tell are badly adjusted speaker volume settings) and at four years old the TV has vertical lines (one light, one dark) on the right and left edges and shuts off on its own about once an hour. It's worth it to me to pay an extra hundred dollars at the outset to avoid issues like these.

I'm also less interested in bells and whistles for the AVR (I have my computer and Blu-ray player for that) and more interested in how many HDMI slots are available and in decent audio processing.

Finally, I have read about people buying their own cables at Radio Shack. 16 gauge, I believe, is the thickness of choice, yes?


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## gdstupak

Gemseeker said:


> And although I know about how speakers need to 'match' each other, timbrewise, how does one determine that?


The best way to guarantee timbre matching is to buy all speakers of the exact same model. Yes it would even be best to use the same model for the center speaker, but usually due to aesthetics and space, most people end up buying the 'matching horizontal center speaker.' 
In other words it would be best if all 5 main speakers were the Pioneer SP-BS41-LR (http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS4.../dp/B0045US6DE ). 
But I don't think these speakers are sold individually and because of space concerns of where to put a taller center speaker, most people will buy the 'matching horizontal center speaker' Pioneer SP-C21 (http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-C21-Watt-2-Way-Speaker/dp/B004MF4S0M/ref=pd_bxgy_e_img_b).
These horizontal speakers usually will not sound exactly the same as their vertical counterparts because the cabinet is different and the speaker arrangement is different. But it is the next best thing because they are made to work with each other usually using the same or similar drivers: such as the SP-BS41 main speakers, the SP-BS21 surround speakers, and the SP-C21 center speaker. 



Gemseeker said:


> I'm not looking for top performance as much as I am for stuff that won't break within 5 years.


When treated properly, as you seemly will do with lower volume levels, standard speakers are pretty hard to break and can last you 20-30yrs. Most people buy new speakers simply because they find out that they didn't (or couldn't afford to) buy good speakers from the start. They upgrade. 



Gemseeker said:


> I'm also less interested in bells and whistles for the AVR... and in decent audio processing.


As the quality of AVR's goes up, so does the price, and automatically there will be extra bells and whistles thrown in there. There really aren't any very good receivers out there that I know of without the bells and whistles. 
One important feature I would highly recommend to you is having an AVR with Audyssey, this automatically sends out test frequency audio to all speakers and will automatically setup their distance and volume, but the most important part is the room correction feature which will automatically equalize the speakers to sound better (there are several different levels of this, but I think the lower Audyssey 2EQ might work well enough for you if not using a subwoofer, also much cheaper, these quality AVR's can be bought for under $300 refurbished).
This Onkyo has the base Audyssey 2EQ, $270... http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...hannel-3-D-Ready-Home-Theater-Receiver/1.html
This Denon has Audyssey MultEQ which is a step up from the basic 2EQ, $240... http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...-7.1-Channel-A/V-Home-Theater-Receiver/1.html 



Gemseeker said:


> Finally, I have read about people buying their own cables at Radio Shack. 16 gauge, I believe, is the thickness of choice, yes?


I buy my speaker cable from Radio Shack ('lamp cord'). The gauge of wire needed is determined by the length of the wire run. 18ga would probably be fine in your situation, but 16ga is a good all-around size to use.
My audio/video cables are from Monoprice... http://www.monoprice.com/


****Here is another shameless plug for the Pioneer speakers.
Read this article by Scott Wilkinson. And don't just stop at the end of the article, go on to the bottom to read the comments section, especially taking note of Wilkinson's comment that there is no need to recommend $1500 speakers when these cheaper Pioneer's are just as good.****
EDIT: I forgot to put a link in for the article...http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-speakers-marantz-sr7005-avr


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## Gemseeker

You included a link for the Onkyo 608, the only newer model that wasn't recalled. It sells refurbished, separately, for only about $50 less than the newer 7.1 systems on Amazon (which would ordinarily be a no-brainer except for the recent spate of recalls), so it makes sense to me to look at Onkyo sets. Which sites do you recommend for having the best reviews? I'd like to see how the new 5500 series is doing.

Do any companies besides Onkyo ever prematch their home theater components (the full versions, not cheapie ones) and sell them a bit more cheaply as sets? Or sell compatible components together at certain-time-of-the-year-sales? You'd think every company would, if only to remain competitive with Onkyo. Is there some reason only low-end companies do this? I'm certainly open to other name brands, especially if I could find something with oak-colored sides and a more aesthetic look than just big black boxes.

Oh, and sorry to be a pain, but apparently there are no dedicated home theater stores in my area, only big box stores that are useless for careful listening. Do you know of any sites that have comparisons of different name brands of speakers and which type of listening each is best for? I'd imagine some are better for bass/rock/video games/action, and others for instrumental music/harp/piano/hammered dulcimer (my faves), and still others for TV shows/movies/dialogue. 

I recently read a review that said their Polk speakers began to hurt their ears after a short time, due to being too sharp (?) I had a really bad migraine last night-the worst I've had in over a year, and it really made me realize how careful I've got to be to avoid triggers. 

Thanks so much for the help! ^_^


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## rab-byte

Gemseeker said:


> Oh, and sorry to be a pain, but apparently there are no dedicated home theater stores in my area, only big box stores that are useless for careful listening...
> 
> Thanks so much for the help! ^_^


The trick to listening in big boxes (if they have a studio room) is to go early on a weekday when there is less traffic in the store and bring your own test discs. Also don't be afraid to ask for the remote so you can adjust the AVR setting to a specific set of speakers. 

Happy listening.


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## J&D

Since you have few options locally to audition speakers and equipment I would recommend staying with many of the forum sponsors here that offer internet direct and discount pricing as well. Accessories4less is excellent to deal with. In fact I just installed a Denon 2312CI for my sister last weekend purchased as a refurb from them. For $499 shipped this AVR has most everything most people are looking for and has a solid audio section including the amps.

As for speakers I searched many options when looking 6 years ago and finally decided on an Aperion setup. I was able to audition several of the big names including B&W, Paradigm, Polk LSi's, Canton, Kef, Infinity, Mcintosh and a few others. I narrowed it to a couple that I liked and could take home with me to demo. Just for comparison sake I ordered the Aperion's to compare as well frankly thinking that they would not compare to the higher end speakers. I ultimately decided that although there was one particular speaker I liked best it was not worth 4x the price of the Aperion 633T's and 634VAC center. Many people rave about their new Verus lineup. The great thing about them is you can order and audition them in your home risk free as I did.

Good luck in your quest,
JD


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## gdstupak

Gemseeker said:


> Do any companies besides Onkyo ever prematch their home theater components (the full versions, not cheapie ones) and sell them a bit more cheaply as sets?


Usually when sets are bundled together, something in the set is going to be 'cheaper' than the other parts to save money. Even though the Onkyo AVR/speaker packages are usually recommended and do sound good, it's usually the speakers that are the 'cheaper' part and some reviewers say you can buy noticeably better separate speakers for just a few dollars more.

This quote is from pg. 2 in the 'Performance' section of an Onkyo HTiB review: http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-ht-s9400thx-home-theater-box
"_While the HT-S94000THX may well be the best in it's class, it's not the best you can get for the money. Onkyo still wins with the TX-NR609 AVR, which is one of our favorites here at Home Theater magazine. At $599, it's one of the best AVRs in its class,.... You can pair it with the top-rated $528 Pioneer SP BS41 5.1 speaker system (reviewed here) for essentially the same price as the HT-S9400THX,...
In the final analysis, the real problem with this system [the HT-S9400THX] is the speakers. As I mentioned previously, they are inexpensively made, and their light weight suggests there isn't much to them. While they use high-quality drivers, that makes little difference if those drivers are placed in imperfect enclosures. _" 




Gemseeker said:


> Do you know of any sites that have comparisons ... I'd imagine some are better for bass/rock/video games/action, and others for instrumental music/harp/piano/hammered dulcimer (my faves), and still others for TV shows/movies/dialogue.


A proper speaker should not sound better for any certain genre. A proper speaker should just replay exactly how an audio track was recorded, it shouldn't add to or change the sound in any way. Reviewers use several words to describe this...neutral, colorless, transparent...
One of the speaker's criteria for colorless playback is having as neutral, or flat of a frequency response as possible.

(My mom got heavily into playing hammered dulcimer several years ago and goes to all these jam sessions and music clinics around Tenn., the Carolinas, and Virginia. She had a huge hammered dulcimer custom made by some big-time dulcimer guru in the area that was several thousand dollars.)

Oh, and about listening at big box stores. It was easy for me to whittle down the competition inside a big box store. There was such a big difference in sound between different speakers, I could still hear the difference while out in the main shopping area.


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## TheUnscented

I was all set to purchase some Polk audio 85Rs for about $150 pair (x 3 pairs) plus matching sub and center channel. Some guys at AV Forum really like Monoprice as a source for hardware. They had similar spec (kevlar cone) speakers for about $50 per pair. The reviews are very, very high. Nobody thinks they're perfect but great deal for the money. I bought three pair, center and sub for less than $300 but haven't installed yet. We'll see.


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## Gemseeker

Hi, all! Over the last few months I've managed to find a few places to do some test-listening. 

Martin Logan Motion 4 bookshelf speakers - had the sharpest, clearest highs, deep notes present but not as sharp and focused. Ugliest-looking, to my taste, tall thin cheap-looking gray metal. Only go down to 70Hz, so I'd probably need a subwoofer.

Energy CB10 bookshelf - highs are duller than the Martin Logans. 

Klipsch KB -15 bookshelf- boomy deep notes, hissy highs

Polk Tsi 100 bookshelf-less emphasis on background/deep notes; not boomy

A 5.1 set of tiny little Paradigm that nevertheless had the best transparent 'you-are-there' sound. Sometimes the sub bothered me, though. Surprisingly small, little shiny black guys shaped like gumdrops.

Boston Acoustic a23 bookshelf speaker. Sounded fine, although the highs were not as clean and sharp as the Martin Logans, they were better than all but the Paradigms.  Only go down to 80Hz, although the larger a25s get good reviews and go down to 55Hz. 

Best Buy also had Definitive Technology speakers, but they were not hooked up so I couldn't try them.

I'd love the chance to compare more, but nobody except Best Buy has more than two choices to listen to. As expected, I prefer bright-sounding speakers best, although I'm wary of how people say bright speakers can make some music sound too harsh. 

Pricewise, the 5.1 Paradigm speaker set cost $1,000, and I got a quote of $1,150 for a set of 6 of the BA a25s plus the center channel. The Polks are $220/pair, or about $900 for 6 plus a center. And I still need a receiver! Not to mention possibly a sub. This is depressing. I'd rather not buy anything than buy something I won't be happy with, but a thousand dollars?


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## TypeA

Gemseeker said:


> Hi, all! Over the last few months I've managed to find a few places to do some test-listening.
> 
> Martin Logan Motion 4 bookshelf speakers - had the sharpest, clearest highs, deep notes present but not as sharp and focused. Ugliest-looking, to my taste, tall thin cheap-looking gray metal. Only go down to 70Hz, so I'd probably need a subwoofer.
> 
> Energy CB10 bookshelf - highs are duller than the Martin Logans.
> 
> Klipsch KB -15 bookshelf- boomy deep notes, hissy highs
> 
> Polk Tsi 100 bookshelf-less emphasis on background/deep notes; not boomy
> 
> A 5.1 set of tiny little Paradigm that nevertheless had the best transparent 'you-are-there' sound. Sometimes the sub bothered me, though. Surprisingly small, little shiny black guys shaped like gumdrops.
> 
> Boston Acoustic a23 bookshelf speaker. Sounded fine, although the highs were not as clean and sharp as the Martin Logans, they were better than all but the Paradigms. Only go down to 80Hz, although the larger a25s get good reviews and go down to 55Hz.
> 
> Best Buy also had Definitive Technology speakers, but they were not hooked up so I couldn't try them.
> 
> I'd love the chance to compare more, but nobody except Best Buy has more than two choices to listen to. As expected, I prefer bright-sounding speakers best, although I'm wary of how people say bright speakers can make some music sound too harsh.
> 
> Pricewise, the 5.1 Paradigm speaker set cost $1,000, and I got a quote of $1,150 for a set of 6 of the BA a25s plus the center channel. The Polks are $220/pair, or about $900 for 6 plus a center. And I still need a receiver! Not to mention possibly a sub. This is depressing. I'd rather not buy anything than buy something I won't be happy with, but a thousand dollars?


I think its hard to get decent performance below the prices youre finding. SVS is closing out their old model speakers so you might check out their site.


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## phreak

Paradigm/BA/Polk may be available used. Craigslist (or Kijiji in Canada) is your friend.


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## Gemseeker

Actually, I did check Craigslist. Only two or three listings caught my eye, and they were quite old and/or water damaged, from the pictures. Anybody know of stores that have especially good clearance sales or perhaps "the best time of the year to buy speakers/receivers" info.


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## phreak

Check out the SVS website, there are clearing out last years models


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