# 5.x or 7.x for my small room?



## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

Have a look at the following rough drawing of my two rooms. Room 1 (the one on the left) is my current home theater room. I am (and most likely will) completely re-do my home theater in a year or two and also move it to room 2 (the one on the right). Room 2 will allow me to have a much larger TV/screen and also have my speakers placed symmetrically (right now in room 1 my surround speakers are not equally distanced from the main listening position).

Here is the rough drawing:










However, even though in room 2 I have the surround speakers facing the front wall in the drawing, I will angle them slightly towards the listening position while having them placed on the back wall. I cannot place them on the sides of the listening position because of the closet and door (on either end of the room). Secondly, even though it doesn't show, my seating will be at least 2-3 feet away from the back wall.

My question is, for room 2, can I have the left/right surround speakers placed on the back wall while being angled towards the listening position and also have the two back surround speakers (in 7.x) placed on the back wall facing the front wall? I think not because there simply isn't enough space and room behind the listening position.

Lastly, for room 2, I will flip the home theater arrangement. The front of the home theater will go where the surround speakers are and the back will go where the front speakers are.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Is the closet, floor to ceiling or is there room toward the top for side channels? If you can put side channels on the walls... I think you could go as far as 9 channels (with height channels). Are your speakers big or small?


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

The closet is almost floor to ceiling but the space above the closet is not concrete like the rest of the walls. When I knock on the space above the closet, I can hear an echo (which means it is probably hollow and won't support speakers). Plus, it would be too high to place speakers above the closet.

By the way, don't you need at least 6 feet of space behind you for 7.1?

As for speaker size, I am planning on getting the Seaton Sound Catalyst 12C for LCR, Catalyst 8C (or the new upcoming Calayst on-walls) for surrounds. Subwoofers will be two Seaton Sound SubMersive HPs. I will place the left and right 12Cs on a SubMersive HP so basically the two subwoofers will act as stands for the left and right front speakers.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

6' behind you would be nice to have the surrounds but i have seen the surrounds in demos before a few inches from the rear of a couch. The side surrounds could be up by the ceiling if they needed to be, and aimed downward... It might night be the preferred method but it would work.


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## totalcomfort (Apr 12, 2014)

I have a small room just like you are dealing with. I tried the 7.1 set up and just could not get the sound right.
I stayed with my 5.2 and have no regrets.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

totalcomfort said:


> I have a small room just like you are dealing with. I tried the 7.1 set up and just could not get the sound right. I stayed with my 5.2 and have no regrets.


+1 I think trying to fit the rear surrounds would only serve to cause difficulty, and a headache! Maybe front height instead?


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

Kain said:


> My question is, for room 2, can I have the left/right surround speakers placed on the back wall while being angled towards the listening position and also have the two back surround speakers (in 7.x) placed on the back wall facing the front wall? I think not because there simply isn't enough space and room behind the listening position.


For your room and seating location, I would stick to a 5.1-speaker set-up.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> +1 I think trying to fit the rear surrounds would only serve to cause difficulty, and a headache! Maybe front height instead?


It might even be a good candidate for 10.2... Dolby Atmos when it comes out for home use, or some other setup with 5.1 plus all height channels. :T


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

ellisr63 said:


> It might even be a good candidate for 10.2... Dolby Atmos when it comes out for home use, or some other setup with 5.1 plus all height channels. :T


This could be interesting, indeed. I'm already working that one out for my house. But at the rate I'm collecting gear, (to my wife's chagrin) I'll at least have enough to do the atmos thing in my "doghouse" theatre! Lol


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I have a room that is just a bit bigger than yours and I have a 7.1 setup. The difference is I use dipole/bipole/monopole surround speakers. I went with those type speakers because it gave me choices and turned out to be best for the sound I was looking for. You seem to have your speakers already picked out so in your case maybe go with 5.1 with a wall mounted speaker on the right side and a stand mounted speaker on the left where your closet is. You might find it woud give you the best sound from your surrounds. Here is some info I found helpfull on surrounds. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...k3HihQa_DeRNmUiZzzkcUnA&bvm=bv.66111022,d.cWc


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

In a 5.1 setup, can the surround speakers be placed on the back wall but angled towards the listening position rather than firing straight towards the front wall? Based on the following diagram, surround speakers in a 5.1 setup can be placed at a 110 degree angle.










Does this mean placing them on the back wall but angling them towards the listening position will be acceptable? I've noticed that in a 7.1 setup, they basically must be placed on the sides whereas the back surrounds should be on the back wall.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yep! That would work great. I've done this before. All you need are brackets that allow for that type of articulation. You may want to mount somthing on the back wall for diffusion maybe though.


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

By the way, what percentage of Blu-ray Discs are 7.1? Aren't most of them 5.1? Will I be missing out by playing a 7.1 movie on a 5.1 setup?


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

The nice thing about having a 7.1 setup is that you can still play 5.1 in their original codec but have the 7.1 when you play a disc that has that codec. Just because you have a 7.1 system doesn't mean you have to play everything in 7.1.


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

Correct, but how much do you miss out on when you play 7.1 on a 5.1 setup?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Kain said:


> Correct, but how much do you miss out on when you play 7.1 on a 5.1 setup?


I would say not much. Don't mistake that as not being worth the effort though. The overall experience, while more enveloping is actually kind of subtle. I still feel that 5.x would best suit your room, and maybe augment with height channels. IMO, if the rears of a 5 channel system are setup right, it can be as engaging.(especially with bipoles in a tight space) And also IMO, putting rear surrounds almost over your head, would prove more distracting, than engaging. The human ear is very good at detecting where sound is coming from. That's why we spend so much time with placement.


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## |Tch0rT| (May 2, 2013)

Kain said:


> Correct, but how much do you miss out on when you play 7.1 on a 5.1 setup?


From what I understand whatever content that's in the rear surrounds gets mixed into the surround speakers. I have a similar sized room to your first diagram and I'm thinking of expanding from 5.2 to 7.2 in the future.


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

How is this setup for a 5.4?










Basically, I have 4 subwoofers in each corner of the home theater with the left/right front speakers and the left/right surround speakers placed on top of the subwoofers. The surround speakers will be angled towards the seating position. Even though I have not illustrated it, the front left/right speakers will also be slightly toed-in.

Lastly, could I fit in back surround speakers for a 7.4? I am assuming no because with a 7.x setup, the left/right surround speakers should be in front of the left/right back surround speakers (i.e. all four surround speakers in a 7.x setup should not be against the back wall).


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

Kain said:


> How is this setup for a 5.4?


Fine, since it is similar to what I drew a dozen posts earlier. With your seating so close to the back wall, it doesn't make sense to go with 4 surround speakers.


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

sdurani said:


> Fine, since it is similar to what I drew a dozen posts earlier. With your seating so close to the back wall, it doesn't make sense to go with 4 surround speakers.


Thanks. Would 4 subwoofers be too many for a room of this size? If not, is their placement also acceptable (even though I don't have any other option for placing them)?

Lastly, is it okay to have the surround speakers at ear-level (more so having the tweeter in the surround speakers at ear-level)?


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

Kain said:


> Would 4 subwoofers be too many for a room of this size?


Not at all. Multiple subs can help smoothen out the bass response in your room. You can always adjust the overall output of the subs to a level that is comfortable for you.


Kain said:


> Lastly, is it okay to have the surround speakers at ear-level (more so having the tweeter in the surround speakers at ear-level)?


That's fine, though I prefer my surrounds a couple of feet above ear level (less distracting, more enveloping).


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## jamesfrazier (Jul 24, 2011)

4 subs in a room that size may or may not benefit you. I would start with 2, one near the front of the room and one closer to your main listening position. If you desire more, add the other 2. As always placement is simply trial and error, 2 subs may give you smooth response through out all listening positions, test with duals and add as you need.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Kain said:


> Thanks. Would 4 subwoofers be too many for a room of this size? If not, is their placement also acceptable (even though I don't have any other option for placing them)?
> 
> Lastly, is it okay to have the surround speakers at ear-level (more so having the tweeter in the surround speakers at ear-level)?


You could move the 2 rear subs up to the sofa and have them positioned like end tables and add another sub to the rear wall. You best bet is to do the sub crawl and see where your best locations are and then put subs in those locations. Once you have done this I would get the REW software and fine tune it.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I would also start with 2 subs and go from there. I too( like Sdurani) like my surrounds higher, with the tweeters between 5 and 6 feet from the floor. My surround speaker mounts are pretty adjustable so I've been able to play with different angles. I'm thinking with a narrower room like that maybe 5'.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

And again, I personally would give up on rear surrounds.


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies.

Are the surround speakers in movies mastered with the thought in mind that they will be placed above ear-level? If yes, does placing them at ear-level "degrade" the surround effect intended by the sound designers?


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

I have a 6.1 set up because teh width of my room is just slightly larger than 10'. The difference between 5.1 to 6.1 is almost negligible. I only went to 6.1 because I found a used single matching speaker for cheap.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Kain said:


> Thanks for all the replies. Are the surround speakers in movies mastered with the thought in mind that they will be placed above ear-level? If yes, does placing them at ear-level "degrade" the surround effect intended by the sound designers?


I don't know this for a fact, but it seems to me since theaters have their surrounds up high, this is what the engineers have in mind. As far as "degrading" the effect, this is a tricky question, and I can only say that in my own experiences, (similar to what Sdurani said) the envelopment is greater, and the overall experience is better, than when placed at ear level. Also, ambient sounds, and the effect of being in a "space" is also less effective when the surrounds are placed lower.


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

Which do you think would be the better choice (based on the room layout I posted in post #18):

1. 4 subwoofers with the left/right front and left/right surround speakers each placed on a subwoofer. All speakers at ear-level. Center speaker on stand.

2. 2 subwoofers with the left/right front speakers each placed on a subwoofer. Surround speakers placed on stands positioning them above ear-level. Center speaker on stand.

Basically, 4 subwoofers with all speakers at ear-level or 2 subwoofers with LCR at ear-level and surrounds above ear-level.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Kain said:


> Which do you think would be the better choice (based on the room layout I posted in post #18): 1. 4 subwoofers with the left/right front and left/right surround speakers each placed on a subwoofer. All speakers at ear-level. Center speaker on stand. 2. 2 subwoofers with the left/right front speakers each placed on a subwoofer. Surround speakers placed on stands positioning them above ear-level. Center speaker on stand. Basically, 4 subwoofers with all speakers at ear-level or 2 subwoofers with LCR at ear-level and surrounds above ear-level.


Well, I have to be brief, as I'm in the fly, but in short, I would choose 2 subs+better speaker placement. (LCR at ear, surrounds up). Ideally i would probably choose 4 plus better placement. But in the size of that room, I think 2 subs might be the best choice. Maybe even put em in the rear corners. (Mine are)
(To over simplify I'll say)
Sometimes less is more.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

I would not place your speakers on top of your subs. Stands are made to get speakers to the right height but also to give them a stable platform... When you put them on top of a sub you will be getting the vibrations from the sub.

As far as sub locations... JBL did a study and found that a good location is in the center of the wall when you are running 2 subs or 4 subs. For example... If you run 2 subs you would center one on a wall and center the other on the opposing wall. If you run 4 you would center the subs on each wall.


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks for the replies.

I'll be using the Seaton Sound SubMersive HPi+ for the subwoofers. The SubMersive HPi+ is a completely inert subwoofer. Absolutely no vibrations or movement due to the layout of the drivers.

One more question. Someone stated in my thread on the AVS Forum that in a 5.x setup, the surround speakers should not be at an angle greater than 120 degrees. Is this true? He said that when the angle is greater than 120 degrees, the sense of spaciousness is decreased. My question is that in an IMAX theater (which I think are all 5.1), the surround speakers are basically on the back wall slightly toed-in. Isn't that angle far greater than 120 degrees?


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

ellisr63 said:


> JBL did a study...


...of sealed rectangular rooms. 

I'm not sure the Harman study applies to the OP's room because he's posted two different drawings: the first showing a large opening (archway?) to the terrace and a second drawing showing a sealed room. If the room really is open, then the subwoofer placement recommendations won't have the intended effect.


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

sdurani said:


> ...of sealed rectangular rooms.
> 
> I'm not sure the Harman study applies to the OP's room because he's posted two different drawings: the first showing a large opening (archway?) to the terrace and a second drawing showing a sealed room. If the room really is open, then the subwoofer placement recommendations won't have the intended effect.


Yes, there is a terrace that I did not show in my second drawing because there is a "heavy-duty" sliding door for that opening. When it is closed, very little sound escapes.


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

Kain said:


> Yes, there is a terrace that I did not show in my second drawing because there is a "heavy-duty" sliding door for that opening. When it is closed, very little sound escapes.


That's sealed enough. 

In that case, I would follow Ron's advice and place subs at the midpoints of the front and back walls. That should help address your room's first length and width modes at 47Hz and 51Hz, respectively. Gives your receiver's room correction a head start.


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

sdurani said:


> That's sealed enough.
> 
> In that case, I would follow Ron's advice and place subs at the midpoints of the front and back walls. That should help address your room's first length and width modes at 47Hz and 51Hz, respectively. Gives your receiver's room correction a head start.


The reason I wanted to place the subwoofers in the 4 corners (well almost the corners, maybe 4/5th of the walls length) of the room is that I can place the speakers on top of the subwoofers. I might have an issue placing them at the mid-way points of the walls unless I get only 2 subwoofers and use the front one as a center speaker stand and place the back one in between the left/right surrounds.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Kain said:


> The reason I wanted to place the subwoofers in the 4 corners (well almost the corners, maybe 4/5th of the walls length) of the room is that I can place the speakers on top of the subwoofers. I might have an issue placing them at the mid-way points of the walls unless I get only 2 subwoofers and use the front one as a center speaker stand and place the back one in between the left/right surrounds.


I would not place your speakers on top of your subs. Stands are made to get speakers to the right height but also to give them a stable platform... When you put them on top of a sub you will be getting the vibrations from the sub.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I'm curious as to why you seem compelled to put your speakers on the subs.


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

The subs are dual-opposed Seatons, so vibrations aren't a problem. A friend of mine stood a nickel on his Submersive and it didn't fall over while the sub was pounding out the bass. 

However, using the subs as speaker stands assumes that where you're placing your speakers for best soundstage & imaging is also the best location for bass reproduction in the room, when that's often not the case.


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## Tin_Ears (Aug 7, 2012)

sdurani said:


> The subs are dual-opposed Seatons, so vibrations aren't a problem. A friend of mine stood a nickel on his Submersive and it didn't fall over while the sub was pounding out the bass.
> 
> However, using the subs as speaker stands assumes that where you're placing your speakers for best soundstage & imaging is also the best location for bass reproduction in the room, when that's often not the case.


I'm doing the same with mine. My smaller subs are opposed 8" in sturdy well-braced small boxes. Vibration isn't a significant factor. I see no reason not to use the subs as stands if in dual opposed configuration. Those are the small subs. The dual opposed 18's are mounted IB. Regarding image placement: Mine will run from 40-50Hz to approximately 200Hz so placement is necessary AT the mains. Okay... so these are low bass, not sub bass.


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

willis7469 said:


> I'm curious as to why you seem compelled to put your speakers on the subs.


Because, in my small room, I won't be able to place 4 subwoofers while having the speakers on stands. Using the subwoofers as stands will allow me to have 4 subwoofers.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I may have missed it,but what are you using for mains? I do understand your room size/placement issue, but optimal sub placement and optimal speaker placement are usually mutually exclusive. I wonder if you'd have better luck by corner loading as tightly as you can, and get the LCR setup optimized. Then you could EQ with a minidsp.(or something) Another thing I wonder is by placing on the subs, if you would have issues with diffraction off of the sub. I do agree however that your subs wouldn't vibrate your mains, but what about the mains cabinets interacting with the sub cabinets?


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

LCR: 3 x Seaton Sound Catalyst 12C
Surrounds: 2 x Seaton Sound Catalyst 8C
Subwoofers: 4 x Seaton Sound SubMersive HPi+ (all with amplifiers and none as slaves)
Pre/pro: Datasat RS20i

These speakers are designed to be placed on stands or in a wall baffle. Unless I am wrong, I am pretty sure they won't have any issues when placed on the subwoofers.

If I were to place the left/right front and surround (center will be on a stand) speakers on the subwoofers, that would result in almost corner placement for all subwoofers (more like 4/5th of the wall's length towards each corner). Isn't that actually good placement for subwoofers? The Harman White Papers for subwoofer placement states the following:



> One subwoofer at each wall midpoint is the best in terms of Std, Max-ave and Max-min but does not support low frequencies particularly well. Two subwoofers, at opposing wall midpoints, performs very nearly as well as four at the midpoints and gives a much better LF factor. One subwoofer in each corner also has good low frequency support, but does not perform quite as well as one subwoofer at each wall midpoint, in terms of Std, Max-ave and Max-min.


4 subwoofers in each of the corners results in the better low-frequency response than 4 subwoofers at the midpoint of the walls but not the smoothest "natural" overall response. However, that can be corrected through EQ if I am not mistaken.


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## Kain (Mar 2, 2009)

Someone showed me this on the AVS Forum: http://www.grammy.org/files/pages/SurroundRecommendations.pdf

It says the surround speakers in a 5.1 setup should be placed between 110 to 150 degrees. 150 degrees sounds like a lot. By the way, I measured the angle of my surround speakers based on my seating position and it seems it will be exactly 120 degrees.


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