# Only 2 Pieces Of The Puzzle Remain (TV/AVR)



## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Well, after a long 8 years of wonderful service, my old Mitsubishi CRT (WD-73909 - I think) has given me the blinking green light of death, or so that's what I've seen it called in other forums on the issue. It might be able to be fixed, but I've really just used it as an excuse to upgrade.

I'm currently looking at going with an 82 from Mits...the WD-82738. Now, I'm kind of going back and forth between that one and the 73 since I have heard the 82 may have some brightness issues since it has to cover sooo much screen space, but hopefully I can find out from someone here on how that is or if it's an issue at all.

That's the TV side of things. Given that I built my set up in 2002, HDMI wasn't anywhere to be found in the products I picked up (or was even considering) so now that everything comes with it (my PS3, 360, PC, and the new TV), I need to upgrade my receiver too.

I currently have a Denon AVR-4802 (spec sheet attached) and I'm looking at something from Pioneer, be it the VSX-1020-K or the VSX-33. But I am more than willing to take suggestions and change this idea based on people who know, rather than just guessing.

My speaker set up is Definitive Tech - again from 2002 in a 7.1 surround. Fronts are 2 BP3000TL's, the center is a CLR 3000, the sides are BPVX/P, and the rears are SM 450s.

I don't see that either Pioneer I am looking at would be wrong for the system, but I figured I'd ask the experts first before doing anything that might be damaging or under/over powered.

Thanks for the help!


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

I would go for the VSX-33 if I were you, I've always been extremely happy with the Elite AVR line. As for your TV, I've read nothing but great things about the 73" LaserVue -- can't say I've seen much about the 82.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Dave Upton said:


> I would go for the VSX-33 if I were you, I've always been extremely happy with the Elite AVR line. As for your TV, I've read nothing but great things about the 73" LaserVue -- can't say I've seen much about the 82.


Any reason to rule out any Denon units or even say an Onkyo one?

As for the LaserVue, I was looking at that and giving it thought, but the price kind of scared me off, unless you can find one under 4k.


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

I actually read your post as that you wanted to stick with Pioneer, my bad! If you're looking at a variety of brands I am a huge fan of the current Denon 3311CI model -or the Integra alternative (DTR-50.2). Both are a little pricer -- but great performers. Are you looking in a specific price range?


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Dave Upton said:


> I actually read your post as that you wanted to stick with Pioneer, my bad! If you're looking at a variety of brands I am a huge fan of the current Denon 3311CI model -or the Integra alternative (DTR-50.2). Both are a little pricer -- but great performers. Are you looking in a specific price range?


Sorry, I probably didn't word it right. I'm a bit of a brand loyalist, but wouldn't hesitate to pick something that works, is reliable, and cheaper than any brand I may have used before. I only looked at the Pioneer's because they seemed cheaper than the Denon's while offering pretty much the same features and I was willing to pay more for them over the Onkyo's because they seem to offer more.

I also provided my speaker specs because I wasn't sure if the AVR's I was looking at would work. The first time I bought all of this stuff, I had someone helping me go through and pick out what would work with what I wanted. Now, I'm on my own and really don't have a clue. I know there is wattage and ohms and all sorts of things to consider when it comes to sound and speakers. All of which, I think I am pretty clueless on.

I'll take a look at what you mentioned, so thanks for those recommendations. As for my price range, I'd like to keep my AVR under a grand or close to it. And my TV I'd like to keep in the same size rage (73 or more) but also under or close to 4K.

I really am appreciating all this help. You've been tons more helpful then other boards I've tried.


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

At that price range I'd say your shootout is between the Denon AVR 2311CI, the Pioneer VSX33 and the Onkyo TX-NR808. 

To break it down further lets start with output power - the Denon rates at 105 wpc, the Pioneer at 110 and the Onkyo at 135 (at 8ohms for all). They will all end up having similar output - though it's generally accepted that Pio's don't push as close to their rated output as Denons do. The Onkyo also won't probably reach that rating with all channels driven but the end result will be the Onkyo and Denon having similar levels of power output (the Onkyo may edge ahead slightly) and the Pioneer just behind. 


*HDMI 1.4 Input/Output:*

Pioneer: 6 In / 2 Out
Denon: 6 In / 1 Out
Onkyo: 7 In / 1 Out

*Feature Set:* 

Audio wise - almost a dead tie in all cases.

The Onkyo uses a Faroudja DCDi scaler while the Pioneer uses the Marvell and the Denon uses the ABT2010 -- what this all means is that you may notice the Pioneer and Denon look slightly better for SD upconversion (depending what's in your TV it may even be better).


Comparing weights the Onkyo comes in at 40.3 lbs -- the Denon is 23.8 while the Pio is 29.9.

This indicates that the Onkyo has much larger transformers inside - a good indicator it will come close to the rated power output. 



So, armed with all that information I'd advise to you search the internet for reviews, both positive and negative for each. Chances are one has a better overall opinion - then weigh your needs (feature set, power output, brand name, price/performance) and make a decision. Between these options I'm fairly certain you can't really go wrong, you might just be slightly more sure you made the right choice.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I highly recomend going with this Onkyo 3007 or even better this Onkyo 876. They are a far better receiver than any of the above mentioned and also has superior video upconversion and handling.


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## Trick McKaha (Oct 7, 2009)

I have a different take on this, for what it is worth. I found it to be better to get the cheapest receiver that had HDMI switching and audio pre-outs, and then I got a decent (Emotiva) multichannel power amp. That gives me 200 watts per channel (at 8 ohms) for the 5 channels the Emotiva puts out, and about 110 watts on the remaining channels, using my older receiver as a power amp there. I never use video scaling on my receiver anyway - most TVs and projectors do a great job of that. Anyway, I mainly want to use HD sources and to have them go unaltered to the TV.

So, Yamaha, Onkyo, and Denon all have good mid level receivers with 7.1 audio pre-outs, and you can often buy one of those plus the multichannel power amp for less than the cost of the higher power receivers. I think this gives you more power and more flexibility for maybe less cost. Only thing you would be giving up would be fancy video up scaling. (Another reason I use outboard amps instead of just a receiver is because my speakers have active crossovers and require separate amp channels for the treble and bass. But even with conventional speakers, outboard amps have advantages.)

Lastly, the HDMI 1.4 spec is now being implemented in new receivers - might as well get that just in case you ever want 3-D. But if you won't care about 3-D for the next few years, it is probably a good time to pick up last year's models (with HDMI 1.3) used or refurbished cheap.

If it were me buying a new TV, I'd get 3-D.


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> I highly recomend going with this Onkyo 3007 or even better this Onkyo 876. They are a far better receiver than any of the above mentioned and also has superior video upconversion and handling.



Agreed, IF he doesn't want HDMI 1.4 -- If you're buying a receiver this year I don't see why you wouldn't want to get 1.4 - while those two are slightly better models (from Onkyo & they are from last year after all) it really does depend if you plan to use any 1.4 features or if you're trying to stick with a specific brand. I own Onkyo gear myself and I love it, but this is a personal decision.

Another big consideration is - how much SD content do you really watch? If you don't watch much SD content then upconversion is a moot consideration as well.

You can obtain a separate amp and a cheaper receiver as another option - you then need to consider whether having more advanced versions of MCACC/Audyssey or THX processing modes matter to you or not.


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

An example of the separate component approach as was stated earlier by Trick would be something like the H/K AVR354 or 355 with an Emotiva UPA7. It's hard to determine the best answer until we know what you care about, 3D, upconversion, sound quality/power.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Thanks again for all the help! This is wonderful!

So anyway, a bit more insight here as to where I am going.

Big Screen TV - I've been viewing a 73-incher for 8 years and I don't really see any reason I should go smaller than that if I don't have to. Plus, I game a ton and heard DLP was great for gaming, so there's that.

3D - Yes. I'm preparing for it anyway. Remember, I bought my older stuff on the cusp of DLP's and LCD's and just before the introduction of HDMI, so I totally missed out on the last 8 years of taking advantage of that tech. The biggest thing in DVD at the time was making sure I had a progressive scan player (Denon DVD-3800). Now, of course, I have the 360 and PS3 to do the movie work as well as the gaming. But yes, I am going for 3D. Given I get the Mitsubishi set (and that seems more likely every day), I'll be grabbing the 3D started kit that goes with it.

HDMI 1.4 - That's a yes as well. Especially if I want the 3D...at least, I think I need 1.4 for that, right?

SD Use - Minimal if at all. I own a TiVo Series 3 (first gen) and given my time spent with HD, I've noticed I use it ONLY for HD. In fact, just before I lost my TV, I was planning on switching my cable package to somehow ONLY get HD. 

So, there you go, and I am totally willing to answer any more questions if it helps in getting you guys the right info to tell me what to look for. I pretty much listed my set up in an earlier post, but I have never used a pre-amp. I honestly don't even know how to use one or how it even works. I know that may be HT 101, but for the last 8 years I've never had to concern myself with it. I guess my question there is....do I need a pre-amp?


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I am very partial to Denon so that is where i would stick my money.:T
At NexTag you can find them cheap from several trusted dealers.:clap:


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## Trick McKaha (Oct 7, 2009)

OK, 3D, you lucky.

When I was pushing using separate power amps, I still was thinking you would use a regular receiver, but just would get one with pre-outs that would allow you to bypass the receiver's power amp. That way you could get a good brand of receiver with relatively weak power output, and not be limited by it. So, my main recommendation about that is whatever receiver you buy, try to make sure it has pre-outs, and don't worry much if the power output of the receiver is low, because you could always amp it up with a seperate. And that way, you can get really good quality without frills at lower cost.

For 3D you need HDMI 1.4, so last year's receivers are out. You'll need a current model. Still, you might want to look for the least expensive Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, (or Pioneer?) receiver with HDMI 1.4 and 7.1 pre-outs. Then compare to their higher power models in that line, and see if you wouldn't rather just buy a separate power amp for an additional $800 instead. 

Here is more detail you might not need. Receivers now seem to not let you use the pre-outs on some channels and still use the receiver's onboard power amp for the remaining channels. So, if you use a separate power amp, you will probably need to do so for every channel of your surround sound system. On my previous Yamaha receiver, it let me use its pre-outs on the front channels, where I most needed greater power, and I could still use the receiver's power amp for the rear channels. Not on my new Yamaha. All or nothing there. So, I use my old Yamaha receiver's amps as a seperate, together with my Emotiva 5 channel amp, to give me all the amplification I need. I'm using a fairly new HDMI Yamaha receiver for audio processing and hdmI switching, but never have used its onboard power amps, which are fairly weak. If your new receiver has pre-outs, you can do this from the start or add on more powerful amps later if you want.

If your current amp has 7.1 analogue inputs, then you could use it as your power amp. Increasingly, newer mid range receivers do not have as good a power amp as older receivers had - that is what they compromise to add other features. It takes an awfully expensive receiver these days to have a very good power amp.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Again, cause I'm clueless on amps since I've never used one - can I get one of the 3 that Dave listed, so long as it has 7.1 pre-outs and then get an amp later down the line if I wanted?


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

That's correct, all those models that I listed are higher end and have pre-outs. That means that if at some point later you want to use it as a Pre/Pro (Preamp/Processor) you can just plug your new standalone amp/amps into those preouts and get a brand new sonic experience, the receiver will still do all the decoding/processing for you.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

This may come across as a stupid question, but is there really that big a difference in using an amp?

Like I said before when I bought my system originally, I was told I didn't need one since the speakers had powered subs built in and the Denon could handle everything else, but is the different really that noticeable?


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

With your current speakers you shouldn't notice much of a difference, another amp will give you headroom - which is great if you listen at reference level a lot, but otherwise I wouldn't say it's a noticeable increase unless you upgrade to higher end speakers in the future, at that point in time you can get a separate amp if you feel it's necessary.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Oh man, so now it's pretty much between those three you mentioned then. Currently the Onkyo is leading with the Pioneer in second and the Denon third.

But that could all change as the wind blows with how weird I am on making these decisions.


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

Let us know which you choose, and remember, search the internet for any reviews that are negative so you know of any known issues.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

No kidding! I wish I had done that before spending the ENORMOUS amount of money on the 73 crt I got back in 2002. Ugh.

Without doing the searching for me, does anyone who happens to see this have any thoughts on the Denon AVR 2311CI, the Pioneer VSX33, or the Onkyo TX-NR808?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

3D is not an issue regarding HDMI 1.4 or 1.3 receivers. Most 3D BluRay players have two HDMI outputs so you simply run one HDMI directly to the 3D display and the second for audio only to the receiver.


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## Trick McKaha (Oct 7, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> 3D is not an issue regarding HDMI 1.4 or 1.3 receivers. Most 3D BluRay players have two HDMI outputs so you simply run one HDMI directly to the 3D display and the second for audio only to the receiver.


Well, but from what I read, the lossless sound channels got moved to a different place in the change from HDMI 1.3 to 1.4. So apparently HDMI 1.3 receivers won't find the lossless sound if it is packed in the HDMI 1.4 format. It seems stupid to do that to the soundtrack channels, but the best information I have is that it is so. 

If someone knows more about this, I would like to understand why they changed the lossless sound spec while adding 3D to HDMI. It must be some engineering advantage - I won't believe they did it obsolete prior receivers.


**** Correction below. The 2 HDMI output Blu-ray players will send audio properly to 1.3 receivers.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Trick McKaha said:


> If someone knows more about this, I would like to understand why they changed the lossless sound spec while adding 3D to HDMI. It must be some engineering advantage - I won't believe they did it obsolete prior receivers.


I do know that the duel HDMI outputs in new BluRay players were designed for the direct reason so as not to have to upgrade the receiver so I think that your information is not correct but I can not confirm this.


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## Trick McKaha (Oct 7, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> I do know that the duel HDMI outputs in new BluRay players were designed for the direct reason so as not to have to upgrade the receiver so I think that your information is not correct but I can not confirm this.


OK. I went looking some more and it seems that the dual HDMI output players will have one 1.3 audio and one 1.4 audio/video. So, yes, it looks like that kind of Blu-ray player will allow easy enough upgrade to 3D without buying a new receiver.

The thing that won't work is to try to just put an HDMI splitter onto a single HDMI 1.4 output Bluray player. Then it would still be a 1.4 signal that would confuse a 1.3 receiver.


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

I would go with the Onkyo or Denon myself, since I've loved my Onkyo so far (805) I would purchase the 808 if it were me.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Dave Upton said:


> I would go with the Onkyo or Denon myself, since I've loved my Onkyo so far (805) I would purchase the 808 if it were me.


Yeah, the Onkyo seems to be what I will go with. It's fairly new though so I'm kind of giving it a bit of time for people to work out the kinks.


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> 3D is not an issue regarding HDMI 1.4 or 1.3 receivers. Most 3D BluRay players have two HDMI outputs so you simply run one HDMI directly to the 3D display and the second for audio only to the receiver.


That's correct - if you're talking about one 3D source - the real benefit to choosing a 1.4 AVR right now is that you don't have to run a cable to the display from each 3D device (and most STB devices don't have dual HDMI outs) - if I were going to go 3D right now I'd go for a 1.4 AVR so I could enjoy the HDMI switching capability. 

It's very much a personal preference, If it were last year and the HDMI spec hadn't changed I would buy last years AVR model no question, but the new spec would force me to go with the newer model.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The more Industry Articles I read, the better I feel about just purchasing another HDMI 1.3 AVR. Last Thursday, I picked up a TX-NR3007. While even at the greatly discounted price, I could have gotten a HDMI 1.4 TX-NR1008 for about the same price. While HDMI 1.4 covers more than the Full 3D Spec, it is the most important aspect.

I often have Friends and Family over to watch Movies and TV. The idea of sitting in a completely darkened room with everyone wearing 3D Glasses just does not sit well with me. I realize with Movies this is a good thing, but with TV Shows and casual viewing it just would make things strange. Saying nothing of the 150-200 Dollars for each additional pair of 3D Glasses you need as without these the picture is unwatchable.

Another major issue with the current 3D Spec is the reduced Brightness. Even at Movie Theaters, 3D Movies are played back at 3-6 Foot Lamberts (fL) whereas 2D is played back at around 15 (fL) This is a major reason why Christopher Nolan is not planning to Film the next Batman in 3D and is hoping to Film the Movie in Imax. Even worse, many of this Summer's Movies were originally Filmed in 2D and added 3D in Post Production. Clash of the Titans, which was originally 2D received a great deal of negative Reviews for how poorly the 3D Presentation was. Even huge supporters of 3D like Dreamworks Co-Founder Jeffrey Katzenburg panned the Film as it might turn more people off 3D when done poorly.

The great thing about this Hobby is that you have a great deal of choices. While I might not have any interest with 3D as it stands, I am happy for those who are enthusiastic about it.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

I wouldn't say I'm enthusiastic about it, but currently, having to get a new TV and AVR with having the means to do so, I'm just going to grab the 3D kit while I'm at it (not to mention grabbing a new Harmony remote to complete the package).

The other problem I find myself running into is a stand to sit the TV on. It currently looks like I'll need a stand around 16 inches high. But I think I'm going to do some measurements and hang up some wrapping paper as a simulation to get a better idea of how I'll be viewing the screen at different heights.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Oh boy.

So my AVR is pretty much set for the Onkyo, but then I got offered (what I think is) a pretty good deal on a 75-inch LaserVue including the 3DC-1000 Starter pack.

However, I haven't been able to find much info in the way of reviews on the LaserVue. Anyone have any thoughts on it?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
LaserVue is a very compelling technology. You get a huge Screen and do not have to be concerned about Ambient Light like you would with a Front Projector. Even better, unlike most Microdisplays, you do not have to worry about replacing a Lamp. That is huge.

The biggest issue with LaserVue was the price and that some insist on having a Panel. If you can get a great deal, having a 73" Display really makes for a true HT.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm not big on panels, or hanging a set on a wall or anything like that. Price was my only concern with the LaserVue.

I'd been pretty much set to pick up the WD-82738, but was always kind of skeptical that the same lamp used to light the 65 or 73 wouldn't have enough power to evenly light an 82. Still, I wasn't going to be sitting far away plus I would have a direct view of the screen so no worries on angles or anything like that.

Then comes this offer on the LaserVue, the 3D starter pack, and a 6 year warranty - no I'm rethinking that decision to go with an 82.

Has anyone been able to look at these out in the wild?


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

I've seen the LaserVue in a showroom now, as of last week. It was a beautiful display, and if I was looking for a large screen without going the PJ route, that would definitely be my choice. Gorgeous color reproduction.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm almost ready to bite. It's like standing on the edge of a bungee jump. You know you're going to have fun and enjoy it, but you have to actually make yourself jump first.

For about $6900 (shipping included), I get the LaserVue L75-A91, 3DC-1000 Starter Pack, Onkyo TX-NR808, 6 Year total coverage warranty on the TV, and 4 Year total coverage on the AVR.

That's a good deal, right? I'm telling myself it is, but other opinions would be nice.

Anyway, finally found a place in town with an 82 and a LaserVue on display (not sure of the models, but I'll ask when I get there) so I'm heading in to see those. Anything I should look for or ask about?


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

Take a look at the larger non LaserVue if they have it, you will get a great perspective on the differences. Let us know how it goes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

The LaserVue was beautiful. And the 3D on it was astonishing (first time I'd seen 3D outside of a theater).

While the LaserVue was the L75-A91, the only 82 they had on the floor was the 2009 model. It was big, but it couldn't match the color of what the LaserVue was putting out. 

Then we started talking price and it got bad. We talked about my deal above and what he could offer me and then it got into a war over who's warranty was better. My deal above isn't from an authorized Mits dealer, and that's why he can price the set so low. But on this issue of the warranty, he blasted the one I had from my original offer and said they weren't worth it...that it was a scam, etc.

Anyway, I still think I'm going with the LaserVue, I just now have to figure out who to go with.


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

I think you're going to be very happy either way. Consider buying your TV from the dealer who gives you the lowest price (regardless of status) and get your warranty after market from clevelandplasma.com - he sells Mack warranties at affordable prices: 4 years for a TV under 7500 for 475.00. See Here


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Yeah, I think I have talked myself out of the extended warranty. I never needed it on any of the stuff I bought back in 2002, and even when I did it was 8 years out so it wouldn't have mattered.

Looks like the puzzle's complete. The Mitsubishi LaserVue L75-A91, 3DC-1000 Starter Pack, & The Onkyo TX-NR808.

Whew....glad that's over.

I'll get some pictures up after it's all said and done.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

I know you seem to have decided on the Onkyo, but I have to say that IMO separates are worth it... simply because you're saving yourself money in the long run.

In essense, even something like an Emotiva UPA-7 amp will outperform the amp section of any receiver maybe under the 5000 dollar range (maybe some slight hyperboly, but you get my point)... and that amp alone is...700 dollars. A bit high end compared to what you say you need, but I think in the long run you're better off...

With that in mind, you can spend the rest of your money on a prepro that suites your needs without being worried about power at all. The problem with recievers is that you'll either get a budget reciever with a few features but a watered down amp section, or a receiver with a highly rated amp section that kind of lacks features. Now higher end/some brands of receivers share a good mix of both but there's no real dedicated advantage, is what i'm trying to say. The only real benefit is that you've got one electronic instead of two.

The benefit of separates is kind of like this:

8 years ago you bought a receiver, and now you have to buy a new one.

imagine if

8 years ago you bought an amp and preamp

now you just would have to buy a new preamp, and keep using the great performance of your older amp.

That's not to say receivers suck... Although I'd probably go for a Marantz, Harmon/Kardon, Sherwood Newcastle, Denon, or Pioneer (that order of personal preference) over an Onkyo or Yamaha. I just think that you're saving yourself money in the long run, and getting more value in the short run. Simply because emotiva amps kick moo baby moo of a lot of for what you pay. But I'm telling you from personal experience that once a new receiver feature comes out you'll have to buy the whole thing again isntead of just the "features" section (in the last 5-6 years we've had the emergence of...

1080p upscaling
HDMI Lipsyncing
Dolby True HD
DTS Master Audio
3D Video
etc... every year they seem to tack "something" new in to make you regret your 2000 dollar receiver purchase!

None of the above have much to do with which amp you use. It's all preamp/prepro!


Anyways back to receivers... have you looked at the Marantz SR5005?

Now re: the TV.

My recomendation before you bite the bullet is to get in touch with a professional ISF calibrator and find out how well the laservue gets to truly deep black levels and true NTSC colors. If all you hear is glowing praise, you'll know it's the right choice! I'm not saying it isn't a great TV or even the best at that size, i'm just saying that you don't want buyer's remorse when you get to calibrating it and find something like a red push bothering you. THings like 3D etc might be cool, but at the end of the day, black levels and ability to calibrate into truly accurate colors IMO are the end-all-be-all when you're dropping money on displays.

EDIT: Yikes.. my whole post is pointless... I didn't register that you already bought it 

In that case... it should be fine...just enjoy!


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Actually, it isn't yet pointless (and isn't pointless at all for any lurkers out there). The TV is a done deal, but I have yet to bite on the sound aspect of the build.

I'm still on the Onkyo side of things, but I am now looking at their Integra line. Still, I don't know what I should go with. And I'm now entertaining this idea of amp/preamp/proamp....

Ugh...for someone who has only dealt with an AVR, all these new factors are making the equation confusing.

I need an amp, right? But what's a preamp for? What's a proamp for? If I go this route, what kind of AVR should I be looking at? Is it even called an AVR when using separates?

Hopefully from this post, you can get a good sense of how uneducated I am here on this topic.


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

Instead of an AVR (Receiver) which is a Pre/Pro with amplification you'd just by a Pre/Pro. Pre/Pro stands for Pre-Amp/Processor - so this would be something in the Integra line such as any of the following: http://integrahometheater.com/prod_class.cfm?class=Preamplifier

Along with this you'd buy amplifiers that are fed a signal by your integra prepro. You can either get monoblocks (one amp per channel) or a combination of multichannel amplifiers. Typically the best bang for the buck will be with a multichannel amp from a company like emotiva.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Hey Dave...thanks for the quick lesson. It's not near as confusing as I was thinking it was going to be.

Learn something new everyday, right?

Now, lets go down this road for a bit:

I can't find prices on the Integra line, but generally, what would I be looking at spending for both?


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Psykoboy2 said:


> Ugh...for someone who has only dealt with an AVR, all these new factors are making the equation confusing.
> 
> I need an amp, right? But what's a preamp for? What's a proamp for? If I go this route, what kind of AVR should I be looking at? Is it even called an AVR when using separates?


-It's actually pretty simple, let me explain to you

Think of an amp as a car's engine. It's where the power is, the thing that really gets those wheels 
(speakers) moving. Or think of it as a computer's graphics card sending a video signal to a monitor

A preamp is a simple device that takes an analogue signal and re-sends it to the amplifier. The advantage of this is that it can often improve audio quality, and more importantly allows you to connect multiple devices to the amplifier. Maybe call it the transmission for a car. It's a valuable device - a preamp can take the weak low-voltage signal of something like phono or an ipod, improve its voltage while still keeping the sound clean, and then send it to the amp. If you were to send the ipod signal straight to the amp, you'd find it struggle to put out high volume levels, and they just wouldn't sound right, either - a 100W amp for example may only limit its own output to 30W if driven by an ipod instead of a preamp. Preamps AFAIK are also where a lot of coloration, soundstage, channel-cross talk, noise floor is determined.

Now think of a preprocessor as the preamp, plus many of the finer things that every car still needs, a transmission, brakes, steering wheel, suspension. You can't just drive an engine, right? Or in computer terms, think of it as a computer's CPU, Ram, Motherboard, hard drive, etc. 

If you've got devices like an oppo BD-83 that sends out an analogue signal after processing a digital signal, then you may not need the "features" of a prepro - your blu-ray player is doing the so-called preprocessing. You just need to hook it up to enough amp channels. The problem is that all the other devices in your home theater (IE PS3, Xbox, Cable Box, Satellite Receiver, etc) are not hooked up to the amplifier now, and you're stuck using your TV speakers for everything.

That gets kind of complex, which is where prepros come in. Especially these days with HDMI, you can send just the digital signal over to the pre-processor, and have it do the conversion into analogue there. This lets you use a normal Blu-Ray player _without_ 8 analogue out lines (example - playstation 3). Prepros also handle more complex algorithms like room management, video processing, compressed audio processing etc, surround processing. These features are kind of useless for dedicated 2-ch in a well treated room, so just a pre-amp might suffice for that, but for HT, a 5-or-7.1 ch prepro is necessary. You can hook this up to as many different amps as you like, so if your main 2 speakers are power hungry compared to the other 5, you can have stronger amps for the main too. Like a pair of Emotiva XPA-1s for the mains, combined with an Emotiva UPA-5 for the other two. Now when your prepro is dated, you can basically sell it or something, and continue to use the same amps. Emotiva in fact gives you a pretty nice discount on their prepros if you've bought an older generatiion prepro from them. 

An A/V Receiver is justa device that has a preprocessor _and_ an amplifier-section. Like a computer with integrated graphics instead of a dedicated graphics card, and in order to fit that graphics chip in, they may have skimped out on the RAM. No, dedicated separates aren't called AVRs, although they basically serve the same function in one chassis instead of two. On that note though, some AVRs have analogue pre-outs, such that it CAN serve as a preprocessor (although probably not as effectively as a good dedicated one) and you can connect, say, a 75w x 7 receiver to a trio of outlaw 200w monoblocks, giving your front soundstage more power. The advantage of that would be that now you might have 90w x 4 going into your rears. Make sense? BUT - when you go to upgrade, you'll find that you again need to find a receiver that can pump out 90w x 4. Whereas the former example doesn't hold that caveat. So when you're shopping again, whereas you could be shopping for an 800 dollar prepro, you're instead shopping for a 1600 receiver with the same features. (Note: a lot of dedicated separates do tend to be higher end, i'm using the emotivas as my reference for prepro prices... still, denon has a prepro for 7000 dollars alone, to go with its 7000 amp)

My point is, if you wanted to switch an automatic transmission car to manual, what's better, getting a quality stick shift installed or buying a new car altogether?

As for a proamp, it's not something you need. Like the name suggests, a pro-amp is an amplifier used by professional musicians/bars/concerts. It's basically just a very powerful amp that has a few differences(it's professional grade after all)... in car terms think of it as a formula 1 or nascar.. not exactly something you need or probably even want in your home. That's not to say they have no home use - especially if you're building a powerful passive subwoofer, they pump out the type of wattage a subwoofer plate amp just can't manage. But whereas in home usage something like 250w is usually overkill, these pro amps are dishing out anywhere from 1000-8000 watts! a pair of 21" Subwoofers would love that sort of power, after all. When I'm done building it, my 18" Maelstrom-X LLT will be powered be a (probably fan-modded) pro-amp, actually.


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

The DHC-40.1 has an MSRP of 1200 dollars, your amplifier will run you around 700-1000. Keep in mind that you don't necessarily need an Integra pre/pro - you could always use a lower end AVR as your Pre/Pro if it's more cost efficient. You'll just have a slightly less feature-filled preamp and the output won't be quite as clean (not that this will be an audible difference).


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Wow guys! Thanks for the explanations. I really appreciate the lessons on this new stuff (new to me anyway).

Now, given the power of the speakers I have (mentioned in the original post with a link to the product page so you can see their specs), do I really need to go this route or would an AVR suffice? I get that an AVR will still do the trick, but if an amp isn't going to give me anymore than a AVR would, then I can't much see a reason to spend the extra money.


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

An AVR will power your current speakers perfectly - the argument of course (as another posted mentioned earlier) is that your next speakers may not be so easily powered by an AVR. While you would have to buy an entirely new AVR or Pre/Pro and Amp later, if you move to separates now (Pre/Pro + Amp) you can reuse that amp down the road and just upgrade your Pre/Pro.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Psykoboy2 said:


> Wow guys! Thanks for the explanations. I really appreciate the lessons on this new stuff (new to me anyway).
> 
> Now, given the power of the speakers I have (mentioned in the original post with a link to the product page so you can see their specs), do I really need to go this route or would an AVR suffice? I get that an AVR will still do the trick, but if an amp isn't going to give me anymore than a AVR would, then I can't much see a reason to spend the extra money.



Well, your speakers are rather sensitive and high impedance, which are good things. An amp will let your speakers have better dynamic range without clipping, but any decent receiver should be able to get reasonable listening volumes out of it.

On that note though, you usually want a solid ~20 db over your listening volume of headroom so that if a movie or song has a loud sequence, your amp won't clip. IE if you're listening at 85db (reference level) you want to be able to hit 105 db cleanly. Try to make it so you can always hit that specific number cleanly - yes it's rather loud but it's reference volume, which means that if you set your receiver or prepro volume to zero (what's going into it is what's actually coming out) you'll at no point experience limitatings on power.

On that note, a measurement of how far you are away from each speaker is vital. I can't really tell you how much wattage is enough without that. But if I were to theoretically place your speakers into my room at the my distances, the power each would require to hit 105db cleanly without factoring in room gain is:

BP3000TL at 12 feet away from sweet spot each
91db sensitivity
12 feet away
So in order to hit 105 db cleanly I want 170 watts at 0.05% THD (true harmonic distortion is an important thing to look at, if an amp or receiver is rated at 100wpc at 1% THD for example there will be audible distortion)

^ That's in stereo, your power needs do drop a bit when you factor in the other channels since they also add volume.

C/L/R3000 at 13 feet away from sweet spot
91db sensitivity
13 feet away

This is a bit tougher, since it's your center channel, it's essentially a mono channel with no real re-enforcement from the sides. In general IMO it's good to give your center channel the exact same amplification your L/R sides are getting. If you weren't factoring other things in, you'd possibly want like 400 watts into this but that's getting ridiculous. Go with 170 watts, it's should be more than enough.

BPVX
90 dB sensitivity
7.5 feet away 

You probably want about 85 wpc to your sides

StudioMonitor 450
90 dB sensitivity
6 feet away

about 55 watts of power

So really, in my room at least, the fronts are what would benefit from real amplification, and a receiver would certainly suffice for the rears. 

Plug your own distances into this little applet:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

For a better indication, since you can fill in some other factors (near-wall, actual distance)

However pay very careful attention to your receiver's actual output.

Just because it might be rated 130 watts doesn't mean that's what you want. there might be a 90 watt receiver out there getting more clean power to each channel. 

The key is to look at

-actual power ratings in 7 channel mode - see if there's an audioholics review of your receiver. whatever its rating is may be for 2 channel mode or measured "individually for each channel". All Channels Driven is the wattage you should look for.

-THD - True Harmonic Distortion - you want that wattage rating at like 0.01% THD. Companies that rate their wattage at 1% THD for example are marketing more than their amp or receiver is capable of. 

Also on that note, you may also want a subwoofer capable of 115 db (10 higher than speaker reference volume) although people often go -10db with their sub volume so as not to shake the neighborhood.


Now specifically for the receiver you've been eyeing - The Onkyo TX-NR808

It's rated like this

135 W + 135 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.08%, *2 channels driven*, FTC)

So the THD number is a bit high, but we'll just ignore it. IN stereo, you should be able to hit 135W. In 7 channel, well that depends on what percentage of power is

1) Going to which speakers in a given movie. You're not listening to multi-channel audio here - at any given time there may only be one or three speakers even receiving a signal.
2) Going to all speakers. There's dynamic sequences which may ask your receiver to indeed send a very loud signal to all seven speakers. These sequences are where your receivers amp is expected to come into play.

I don't know how Onkyo receivers rate in 7 channel. With the case of my marantz receiver, they generally put out ~60% of their rated 2-ch rating into 7 channels. assuming (which is tough to truly do without measurement tools) that this is the case, the onkyo is then probably putting out maybe 75wpc into 7 speakers

maybe that's enough for you.

If you do decide to go the receiver route, I don't think you would regret getting a trio of outlaw or emotiva 200watt monoblocks to for the fronts. on that note you might even want a weaker power rating receiver to save money.

But alas, that brings me right back to recommending something like the Emotiva UPA-7 with a dedicated prepro. When it says 125w x 7 @0.1% THD, it means all 7 channels driven. Which is an upgrade over the onkyo. You're definitely getting more power to your receiver with that emotiva IMO, though - and they've got other amps in different categories. But IMO that 7 channel amp would give you more headroom to avoid any distortion in loud volume peaks. And they've got more powerful stuff too that sounds even better . Now headroom isn't the only thing an amp provides. A better amp will give you a more 3D sound stage and possibly bring a new life to your speakers' dynamics and get them more subtle details. Multiple mono block amps also will give you better channel separation - each speaker is being powered by a dedicated power supply and there's no slight amounts of electricity being run into the wrong channel - known as channel cross-talk (See if you can find a used Emotiva MPS-2... that thing is a monster).

Still, that receiver isn't bad at all, mind you. The chances of you even listening at reference volume might be low. The chances of you ever replacing your speakers with higher end, 4 ohm, 85 db sensitivity speakers may also be low. But IMO it's always better to have all your bases covered. That's just my opinion though. Plus onkyos are traditionally heat-machines.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Well, I'm convinced. I'm going for the Emotiva amp (UPA-7).

Now it's just a matter of finding either the right Pre/Pro or a good AVR that has pre-outs (I hope I am using the terminology correctly).

I've read suggestions for the Yamaha RX-V667, plus the ones mentioned here. What are some good suggestions you guys have for this department. That amp looks to be costing me $700 as it is (since I can't find any dealers online anywhere) so I'd like to keep this search in that same range or lower.

Also, keep in mind it needs to be 3D capable, which I think means HDMI 1.4a, if I'm not mistaken.

One last thing: Thanks so much for the help on this. I've been impressed and overwhelmed at the kindness and the amount of information you guys have given me. I'm on other forums, yes, but this place has been more helpful than all of the other combined. Really appreciate it.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

You know....I just realized most of my questions have been answered previously in this thread from a month ago when my mind was nowhere near going the route of an amp.

Man, it's weird how things like this change from the beginning. I wasn't at all looking at the LaserVue until a price I was happy with was thrown at me (complete with the 3D gear thrown in). Was all set on going with just an AVR and now I'm shopping for Amps and Pre's....and I'm using the lingo to boot!! (hopefully correctly).


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Psykoboy2 said:


> Well, I'm convinced. I'm going for the Emotiva amp (UPA-7).
> 
> Now it's just a matter of finding either the right Pre/Pro or a good AVR that has pre-outs (I hope I am using the terminology correctly).


Don't jump into the UPA-7 if you are getting a receiver, you have to make the two choices together. If getting an emotiva amp, a trio of UPA-1s or a single XPA-3, with your receiver powering the surrounds, is likely going to better bang-for-buck simply because it's probably your fronts that are going to benefit from the extra power unless your surrounds are rather far away.

My AVR Recommendation is the Marantz SR5005, either find a dealer near you (go to the marantz site) or if you're okay with online orders, outlaw audio's website is selling them.

However If you do decide to go the "pure" dedicated separates route (true 7 channel amp with a pre/pro), then my Pre-amp/processor recommendation would be the upcoming AV7005 from the same company, however i'd wait a couple months until accessories4less has a refurb/b-stock up, you might be able to get it for around 900 dollars, and that's something that IMO will be competing with 4000 dollar prepros in terms of feature set. 

I hate to sound like a Marantz fanboy, I really do like plenty of other brands, but something about marantz is just "right" to me.

A couple other amps you might want to look into besides the emotiva are

B-stock ATI amps (from Classic Audio Parts) - these things look amazing. it's what I want, personally.
Outlaw amps (from Outlaw Audio, the same website that's selling the marantz SR5005 btw)

iN FACT, i just went to the outlaw website, and noticed that if you order the marantz with some of their amps, they'll give you a solid discount. If I were you, I'd call them and ask them if they could work out a discount for

1x Marantz SR5005
3x Outlaw 2200

That would be an awesome combination. It's $1,849 as it is, but they might discount that if you ask.

On that note though, the default combos they do offer are great too...Like for 1500 dollars, they're offering an SR5005 with a 7125 (the outlaw equivalent of the UPA-7). 

I kind of also assume outlaw amps to be slightly better than emotiva amps because they are built in America instead of China, and more importantly they rate their powers are a lower THD as well (0.05 vs 0.1). The big advantage emotiva's got is simply and purely the slightly price, which is moot considering the savings on the aformentioned combo they're offering..


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Again, it's funny how these things change and how quickly too.

So I seemed to have leaned against getting the UPA-7 and decided to go with probably the XPA-5 or even the 3. Let it power my fronts and center (3) and my sides (5) and then let me AVR take care of the rest.

It took all of a day of just reading through other threads to kinda get the idea. I'm probably sticking with Emotiva on this....although I couldn't tell you why, honestly. I just...like it, you know?

On my AVR...man, this is a tough one. There's the Integra, the Pioneer, and I've started to creep into Yamaha territory as well. Still on the fence though. I'm sure if I kept looking at the Marantz, I'd probably be swayed that way too.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Psykoboy2 said:


> It took all of a day of just reading through other threads to kinda get the idea. I'm probably sticking with Emotiva on this....although I couldn't tell you why, honestly. I just...like it, you know?


Heh. At the end of the day, that's all that matters 
Re: AVR/Prepro:

Ask to play around with the menus a bit just to see what they're like. Often times these end up being the most frustrating /noticable things with anything these days moreso than sound or image quality. Which gives you more options to play around with, which has the most clear and understandable labels, etc. My guess is you'll probably end up with the integra.


Or get the marantz


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

After looking around some more, I think I have settled on the Denon 3311CI.

By that I mean I have placed it in my cart. Found a pretty good deal on it for $820. But I have until the 21st before that deal expires.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

The denon looks like a nice choice. Seems like your last receiver was a denon too


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

It was. Funny how I went all over with other brands and ended up back at home with a Denon.

Currently, I'm cleaning off the old space and making a nice big hole for when the TV (and hopefully the receiver) gets here next week sometime. Stand is set to be delivered on Monday. This is another of my favorite parts. Cleaning off the old shelf of things I just don't use anymore. Old gaming systems, DVD players, cable boxes...it's all stuff that at one point I used a ton and kept in place in the thinking that I may need it again, but after years of non-use, it's all going in boxes and making way for a nice clear, clean entertainment center.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Bought the Denon AVR-3311CI today from Electronics Expo who were willing to match the $10 lower price sold by World Wide Stereo (when using a coupon code). Are we allowed to talk price here?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Congratulations on your new AVR. And you can discuss what you paid for your AVR here. I hope you enjoy it and it provides you with years of enjoyment.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Well...in that case, I picked it up from Electronics Expo for $819 shipped. They regularly sold it at $829 shipped, but World Wide Stereo had a coupon code (ends the 21st) that brought it down $10 bucks less.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

Hey guys!

Just wanted to stop by for an update. Everything's been going great. After checking out the 3D I am now in the market for a 3D Blu-Ray Player. Since my AVR does HDMI 1.4 I don't need one of the very few players with dual HDMI out so I'm weighing my options on what's already available out there.

Anyway, here's a shot of the set up:


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

Looks great! I'm a big fan of the upcoming Oppo BDP93 if you can wait a little while, it will probably beat any competition currently out there. If you need something sooner, there are some good offerings from the usual big names but I'm really partial to waiting for the Oppo myself.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

I've seen that but the retail is soooo expensive. What am I getting for that price that I wouldn't be for some that are already on the market?

Or did I miss a spec, perhaps?


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## Dave Upton (Aug 4, 2009)

The Oppo devices load faster and have generally better performance. That said, if you're after something cheaper the Samsung and Panasonic offerings are both good.


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## nholmes1 (Oct 7, 2010)

Why not use the PS3 til you can decide, it now does Blu-ray 3D although with down sampled audio.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

nholmes1 said:


> Why not use the PS3 til you can decide, it now does Blu-ray 3D although with down sampled audio.


I have that. It's the audio problem that gets me to looking at stand alone players. I mean...I just put in quite a bit of money on my system and would like to get full use out of it when watching in 3D, you know?


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## nholmes1 (Oct 7, 2010)

I can agree which is why I said til you can decide on a new one, didn't see where you said you were using the PS3 now. Which Mits DLP did you get? Glad you are happy with your system.


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## Psykoboy2 (Aug 10, 2010)

nholmes1 said:


> I can agree which is why I said til you can decide on a new one, didn't see where you said you were using the PS3 now. Which Mits DLP did you get? Glad you are happy with your system.


Yeah, I actually never mentioned I was already using the PS3. My bad. Anyway, I went with the 75 inch LaserVue and it's working out great so far.


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## nholmes1 (Oct 7, 2010)

Excellent TV, get it calibrated and you will really be impressed!


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