# Trying some of Wayne's Soundstage Enhancement Tricks



## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

Wayne's thoughts on optimizing the rear wave of a dipole speaker to enhance the imaging make a lot of sense to me. So, I spent some time yesterday messing around adding reflective panels behind my ESLs to see if I could better optimize the sound. Because I'm still monkeying around with the ESL toe-in angles, I wanted something easily and quickly adjustable. 

Here's what I started with.








I mounted a couple of cabinet hinges to the edges of the hardwood trim on my built in entertainment center. They are pretty solid little hinges and hold steady at whatever position you put them in.








I bought a couple of 1"x12"x4' black veneer shelf boards to use as reflective panels. These are the same boards I used for the bases under the ESLs to help with isolation. 















The current speaker toe-in angle is 10 degrees. Once I had the panels mounted, I placed a mirror flush against the reflective board and I shot the laser from the center of rear of the ESL panel into the mirror and adjusted the angle of the hinged board until the laser spot hit my LP. From my measurements, the reflective panel's angle is 16 degrees. Repeat for the right channel.















I made it all the way thru Bob James Playin’ Hooky and partly thru the Robinhood: Prince of Thieves soundtrack last night and felt the detail was just spectacular. Some of this could be psychological but I believe I’m hearing clearer separation of instruments and more dynamic sound in terms of transients. I’ve got the angles marked, so I'll give it a few days and change the angles and see if there's a difference to me. I also want to try some absorption between the panels as Wayne suggested to see if it makes a difference for me as well. It's pretty cool all the tweaks you can make to change the sound. Hopefully, in the near future I can take some measurements and get some thoughts on the graphs.









BTW, Wayne should change his id from AudioCrraver to *THE Magician*.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

Although I do play music with my subs integrated, my other big change this weekend was a little more more for HT performance than music. The Halo P5 allows me to null out HT bass mgmt when listening to music only so I can mildly blend the subs in without them taking over. When not in HT Bypass mode, the P5 is out of the equipment loop and my audyssey settings are active. So, again, in an effort to optimize, I tried relocating both subs, moving one outside of the right channel main, kinda-sorta corner loaded (as much as I can corner load anything in this room), and, moved the second V1500 nearfield, which is about 3' from my LP. 








Wow, that was no small change. If you’ve looked at any of my other “help needed” posts over the past couple of months, you know I have 7,200 cu. ft room. I just can’t tell you how pleased I am with these two PSA v1500’s. They do a very good job pressurizing this room complete with precision and slam. I watched Lone Survivor again and during the chopper scenes, you feel air from the blades whooomp, whooomp and the RPGs hit you like a crack of lightening. 

BTW, a side benefit from the sub moves is I can give the wife an opportunity to put some female junk like ivy, baskets, etc. around the equipment rack to try an appease her some. Expect to see some fake potted plants in some future post. Do they make acoustic absorptive fake plants? Anyway, lets call it a win-sorta win deal.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

You are brave.:T Pay special attention as you listen to the imaging detail closer to the speakers, that is where the imaging benefits the most from the changes you are making. Keep us posted.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Wayne has does an awesome amount of work here presenting the details of his journey and he is spot on. One thing I have learned recently is the importance of Symmetry, all else being equal, the left speaker if possible, should "See" the same thing as the right speaker and vice-verse. By see, I mean for example, if there is a soft cushy footstool out 3' from the left speaker, there should be something similar out from the right. This works also with rear walls, side walls and front walls. This is where absorption, deflection and diffusion properties need to be very well controlled. 

Speaker and sub-woofers do their thing wherever they are placed, as you understand, it is our job to make everything around the speakers and sub-woofers work for us, the listener. :T


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Wayne is the expert...I'm curious to follow along on this one!


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## arkiedan (Oct 20, 2013)

There! Now you've done it! Now I've got to build a couple reflective panels to position behind my Motion 12s. I thought I couldn't possibly be happier with these speakers but now..........well.........I gotta try this! 

old, old arkiedan lddude:lddude:


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I forgot to mention, beware of your high back recliners. They will kill surround and ambient information presented by the front two speakers, big time.
So listen in low back chairs and see if you hear the difference.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Savjac said:


> I forgot to mention, beware of your high back recliners. They will kill surround and ambient information presented by the front two speakers, big time.
> So listen in low back chairs and see if you hear the difference.


I am agreeing with this more and more. My LazyBoy recliner is about to get rep!aced for that reason.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

My uncle is an expert and he without a doubt says everything has to be perfectly aligned, leveled, plumed, toed all at the exact same angle to within .1° and 1/64th of an inch.

100% most crucial part of setting up your system.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Tally I would tend to agree that things should be well aligned and in good order, however, in real life it is oft times hard to get a room/system set up that carefully. Remember we move our heads, our bodies, we look around, close our eyes, open our eyes, eat some popcorn, take a drink....etc, all of which would through those measurements off by a huge margin. 

We have to get all things close to correct, if possible very close, however not many things are perfect and proper. Sound-staging depends as much on the equipment and recorded media as it does on the setup in the room. Perfect measurements cannot overcome bad recordings and/or equipment and as such, because we rarely have perfect rooms, perfect equipment and perfect recordings, this issue becomes so very complex. But when all does come together, we can be transported to a recording site. Even the fake recordings that are made in a studio are wonderful to become a part of. 

So your uncle in theory is correct, but in the real world, we try out best to do that, but falling short can still present a wonderful sound space into which we can partake. :T


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## kevin360 (Oct 4, 2012)

...and now for some less popular comments, most of which will have to be teased out of a :rant: about the dynamic nature of life (mine, in this case).

There are many factors to consider with one's listening chair, and comfort is certainly a critical one. If you aren't comfy, you aren't really going to fully enjoy the experience – just part of the witch's brew bubbling in our brains. Too high is one consideration, and so is reflectivity – I keep a thick blanket covering the back of my leather seat.

Ah, ESLs – one day, I will return to planars and it will probably be a pair of electrostatics (may just keep the 3.7s). I learned a few lessons in the dozen-odd years I enjoyed Magneplanars. Recent events forced a reconfiguration, which is a mixed blessing. In the stead of my 3.7s are a pair of Def Tech Mythos ST, which are of the MTM over a bass unit design. The new speakers are significantly closer to the front wall, as is my seat. A Mythos 10 in the center and a pair of Mythos STS in the rear fill out the new arrangement. The pair of Def Tech Reference subs didn't move much. For HT and multi-channel music, the new setup is _phenomenal_. 

I adored the 3.7s for glorious music, in stereo – I will miss them. After years of experimentation, I tried something I thought was nuts...or, an approximation of it – Limage, as it's called. I had already found that they got better and better as I pulled them away from the front wall - just needed to orient them in an unconventional manner. A reflection off the front wall which arrives within ~20ms of the direct sound will invariably produce comb filtering of some degree. On the other hand, the interactions of those same reflections increase the salience of directional cues. As with all things, the benefit has its cost. Sound is also a lot messier than our laser sharp rays of reflected photons. Anyway, 9'3” was the best my cables could do, and the Maggies sounded better at that distance than anything less – just sayin'. Alas, I no longer have such a generous space to dedicate to the cause, hence the radical shift. 

On a side note, my screen got bigger. Well, I perceive it as larger because I sit 10' closer to it now. As with some things, the cost purchases a benefit...or three. It's been a long time since I had a center channel – wow! I also underestimated the impact of full-range rears. 

Not only did my dedicated room layout change, but I'll also be yielding the room in the house where my seriously suped-up MMGs are located. They will remain, so I will get to listen to them from time to time, but they will be my daughter's – in her little cave. I predict that she is going to fall in love. I discovered some surprising things about them over the years. One is that the symmetry of the surrounding room matters far less with a near-field setup (heretic!). 

Okay, on with the stoning. :hide:


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

No stoning today Kevin. I'm pretty new to all of this, just reading, trying this and that and learning as I go. But, you seem to be following the standard convention for planar set-up aren't you? I'd love to have the ability to have my mains 8-9 feet from the front wall but that isn't in the cards so I default to trying other options. 

Like many others, I have characteristics that ultimately are not changeable for one reason or another. Room dimensions/layout, construction, and even furniture options come to mind, all requiring compromises and trade-offs,...benefits and costs as you put it. We settle for a 90% solution because squeezing that last 10% out isn't practical for one reason or another. I can create and enjoy perfect symmetry but it comes at a cost, whether it be a financial, functional or an aesthetic one.

I sat on my little craftsman wheeled shop stool the other day and just slid back and forth a foot at a time from speaker plane to PLP and, yet again, had to conclude Wayne was right-- that ~6' seemed to create the best imaging. That's a non-starter for my room, as 9' is the best I'm going to be able to do without my wife up and deciding she is just finally going to have to shoot me in the head. 

Moving some of my gear out of the built-in entertainment center which was built especially for this gear; buying a new eq rack to put the aforementioned displaced gear, along with and a bunch of new gear, then it taking up so much room; buying 2 giant black boxes and having one in front and one right behind her seat; putting pillows and quilts in places that wouldn't normally have them (including over the aforementioned rack and gear... sans amplifier of course); screwing boards to the walls; and so on, has me near the end of the line placement, set-up, symmetry and option-wise.

Maybe it's time I realize it may all just be in my head, or come to grips that I'm at that 75-90% mark and the rest is diminishing returns. Afterall, I'm not giving up my Lazy Boy for nothing, too many hours invested breaking her in just right. Gotta have priorities...plus I'm afraid of bullets.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Real life kind of wins out most of the time. That includes practical room use, some sense of order and decorum, living in peace with a spouse or significant other, and of course deciding just how far to chase the diminishing returns. I even get tired of fiddling with this stuff once in awhile, but I always come back to it, call it a sickness, maybe it will be classified as an official psych disorder someday.

Then every once in awhile something amazing happens, & I get a big pay off. I am a bit of a hope junkie, too.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Haha too funny, wives do not want us dead, they want us in their Debt, its different. If you beg enough or should I say negotiate enough, all may turn out well, but then one day, the big request will come and you will have to go along with it, even if it is dressing like barney the purple...well I dont know what he is actually. How do I know ?? Dont ask. Never the less pretend like your wife is Mr. Potter from Bedford Falls and just go along with it until you are in a place of strength and pay her back proper.

As to the listening chair, I find I am in a different camp than many fine gents, probably 95% of other fine gents. A high back chair seems to rob the listener of the natural ambient cues in music that allow our ears to hear the sound unencumbered by the sound suction device built into a lazy-boy high back chair. It tends to get worse with a heavy blanket over the chair as the sound will get flatter than without the high back and blanket. 

Lets do a test, sit in the comfy listening chair and play a song that you know very well, and at some point, sit straight up with your head away from the seat back, I bet the sonic frontier changes a good bit. Sit back and it is probable that the sound will loose its sparkler and sound space abilities. Sit up away from the back again after a minute or tow and experiment. This might change your mind. 
Now what I said above is doubly true for movies with surround information. The back of the chair will block a good bit of the sound going on in the rear of the room as it seems to act as a wall in and of itself. Once again, watch and listen to something good and move your head away or get into a chair with a lower back or no back at at all and you will know the power of the soundtrack young Jedi.

Lastly, there is indeed a special place for that blanket, put it over a television display if there is one in the room. That giant hunk of finished glass or plastic is not a welcome component for music in 2 channel. It acts as a giant mirror and causes the sound stage to jumble a bit, so my opinion, when not watching movies and just listening to music, cover the screen. Try these ideas and let me know what you think.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

AudiocRaver said:


> Real life kind of wins out most of the time. That includes practical room use, some sense of order and decorum, living in peace with a spouse or significant other, and of course deciding just how far to chase the diminishing returns. I even get tired of fiddling with this stuff once in awhile, but I always come back to it, call it a sickness, maybe it will be classified as an official psych disorder someday.
> 
> Then every once in awhile something amazing happens, & I get a big pay off. I am a bit of a hope junkie, too.


Hope now that defines many of us, what a great word you bring up. Without Hope there would be little enjoyment on those days when things are not working right or you dont feel so well. As the band Klaatu once wrote....

So let us feel Hope
And feel the sunrise in our minds
To give Hope is to enlighten all mankind
Ah but lose Hope and life seems black as blind
When faith gives way to fear
When motivation disappears
All is lost if one abandons Hope


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

I love this place!!! Just can't stay away from this thread. Everyone is eloquently contributing entertaining and informative material with insights galore. Home theater tech talk and life lessons all dressed up in one amazingly enticing smorgasbord of activity! What a ride. Did I say I love this place?

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## kevin360 (Oct 4, 2012)

Compromises and trade-offs are just part of life for the overwhelming majority of us. The bare truth is that I sat down with pencil, paper and the various acoustics calculations in order to design a dedicated listening room...then friends goaded me into adding video. So, it became an HT room as well, but not fully blown. It was a trade-off and a compromise, but it was enjoyable. For speaker placement, I relied on the Cardas formula.

It sounded very good, but it wasn't perfect. I added the second sub. I moved my 3.6s (at the time) out a bit more - better, but not perfect. I added more acoustic treatments - especially bass traps (ASC). Eventually, I re-routed my speaker cables in order to get them (3.7s by this time) nearly 10' into the room - better still, but not perfect. Along the way, I played around with the various non-standard configurations - Rooze is one that is quite entertaining, effected by rotating the speakers ninety degrees from 'normal' (requires a very narrow tweeter - ESLs need not apply). I finally ended up with them as close to the side walls as I could manage with my ceiling shape (room above a garage) and perpendicular to the side walls (had to forfeit a bit of distance from the front wall in order to move them to the sides) - near as makes no difference, perfect. 

Well, life has a way of getting interesting. It did so this year, but it is entirely a list of first world problems (in the wake of a death in my immediate family). My 'dedicated' room now doubles as my bedroom - will be moving up there this weekend (practical room use). Something had to give. Rather than shackle the system I loved (Is it fruity to feel so strongly about an audio system?), I decided make some radical changes. Change is fun. I've boxed the majority of my former system, but I'm not exactly in a hurry to sell the stuff (and I might not do it). It's hard to predict the future. 

The crux of the biscuit is that finding the last 10-20% often involves surprising turns. After lots of experimentation (which I find to be fun), I think I found that elusive quality, then a surprising turn reset the game.:laugh:

---

I'm a pretty tall guy and my head is fully above the top of the back of my seat. The blanket just squelches the reflections off the leather. Fortunately, I don't have a TV in the room. When I listen to music, the screen is rolled up in its box. Don't need a blanket for that problem. There is a window in the room, but it is covered with acoustic foam that is covered with a nice rug (nailed to a frame that I screwed to the wall), with a music theme.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I learn so much here Lou, you are right, a free post doctorate in audio/video addiction for which there is no escape once bitten....

Kevin, thats for your insight, very well spoken. My condolences for you and your family, I feel your pain as my Mom died last month as well and dagnabit, I miss her.
My room is HT and audion as well, but I have not figured out the best mix for both...and I dont have the change to go all out and do both in a way that I would like. You are right, first world problems.


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## kevin360 (Oct 4, 2012)

For sure, this is an awesome resource. I really do enjoy reading the tales and seeing the photos of what others afflicted with this passion have done (or plan to do). This world is littered with marvelously creative minds, and I'm nothing, if not an idea vampire. My membership here is much more recent than my membership at a couple other audio sites, and what brought me here was REW. I never even posted here until a speaker evaluation was brought to my attention on the planar asylum. Once I peered into some threads, I realized (though I wasn't surprised by the discovery) that there was much more on offer here than REW. 

I think it's impossible to strike an ideal balance between the demands of stereo and those of HT. It's interesting to compare the pros and cons of different equipment designs, especially speakers. Although my new setup does HT far better than the previous one did, it gives up less as a stereo than I expected it would. It kind of takes me back through the cobwebs of memory to a time when I thought Julian Hirsch had the greatest job on earth. I'll never have such a job (or its perks), but, looking back, lots of audio equipment has come and gone over the years...and I've thoroughly enjoyed the whole journey (even the processor craze of the late '70s / early 80s). 

It's tough when we lose people. The equipment is just stuff, although it is a means to a blissful end.:bigsmile:


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Savjac said:


> As to the listening chair, I find I am in a different camp than many fine gents, probably 95% of other fine gents. A high back chair seems to rob the listener of the natural ambient cues in music that allow our ears to hear the sound unencumbered by the sound suction device built into a lazy-boy high back chair. It tends to get worse with a heavy blanket over the chair as the sound will get flatter than without the high back and blanket.
> 
> Lets do a test, sit in the comfy listening chair and play a song that you know very well, and at some point, sit straight up with your head away from the seat back, I bet the sonic frontier changes a good bit. Sit back and it is probable that the sound will loose its sparkler and sound space abilities. Sit up away from the back again after a minute or tow and experiment. This might change your mind.
> Now what I said above is doubly true for movies with surround information. The back of the chair will block a good bit of the sound going on in the rear of the room as it seems to act as a wall in and of itself. Once again, watch and listen to something good and move your head away or get into a chair with a lower back or no back at at all and you will know the power of the soundtrack young Jedi.


I recently took some measurements with/without the thick blanket on the high back of my listening chair. There is comb filtering from the reflection off the back of the chair, which is a stiff fabric. The blanket gets rid of the high-frequency part of the comb filtering, but not the lowest, the wavelength is too long to be affected. So there is always a big dip, and the frequency and and depth shift as the head moves around. The higher, finer dips of the comb filtering, which really mess up imaging, are knocked out by the blanket, so the imaging seems better with the blanket in place. But the big dip almost becomes more noticeable with the blanket, attention is drawn to it, and that dip drains the life out of the the music. So I am not sure which is better, but I usually favor leaving the blanket in place, favoring the preservation of imaging information. Plus I lean forward a bit more, as Savjac suggests, to lessen the effect altogether.

I value the comfort of the high back, too, being a cat-napper, but am thinking about a lower back (shoulder level). Maybe a motorized headrest that moves into place as I fall asleep??? Or a contoured dentist-chair headrest behind the back of the head where it does not disrupt hearing??? Neither exists that I have seen. The serious listener ends up having to invent room treatments, custom reflection panels, and now listening chairs.

Another thought: Comfort is relative. When the sound is right, and we are talking here about ways to really make it *R-I-G-H-T,* I will put up with a lot - head in a vice, etc. - for its sake. And when it is right, it is a truly special experience.

A thought about diminishing returns. So much of what we do in audio ends up being a lot of trouble for a tiny bit of improvement. This soundstage work can really defy that principle, though. As Kevin360 put it, the prize can seem almost in reach and then somehow it slips away. But on a good day, it gets a little better and a little better and all of the sudden - - - *BLAMMO!!!* - - - BIG payoff! - the stars align and something astounding happens and your audio world is transformed and you can't leave because you're afraid you might find out you were dreaming. But it is just as good the next day. And the wife wonders why all the sudden you are listening for 6 hours at a time instead of 45 minutes, and you try to explain and she gives you the "yes, dear" eye roll. Just be thankful, make a note to get her flowers and some Amazon bucks, and go listen some more.

Edit: And try to figure out how to reproduce it.

My first big soundstage BLAMMO happened over a year ago, pretty much by accident, and I have been trying to figure it out ever since. I _think_ I am getting close. But I have thought that before, too, and been disappointed. Being the hope junkie that I am, I endeavor to persevere.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Two recent recent process refinements.

The first is specific to dipoles (electrostatics, Maggies, open-baffle, etc.). Take a couple of large, thick towels (or small blankets) and drape one from the top of each panel so they cover the rear surfaces. Now you have sound at the LP from the front and very little from the rear. Check imaging, alignment, make sure everything is perfect listening to only the front wave. Then switch the towels to the front so you hear only the reflected rear wave at the LP, checking again for imaging, balance, making sure everything is perfect going on behind the speakers. (I will probably try it when setting up any kind of speakers, covering sides and rear to hear front wave only, from now on.)

Then remove the towels, and _voila, c'est ca,_ if all was done properly the front and rear waves should come together and integrate into a soundstage beautifully. It is all a matter of reducing variables so it is easy to tell what you are dealing with and where the problems might lie. It is simple and can really help you get to a good result faster.

The other is just a reminder. While finishing a setup recently, sitting down to listen, the sound stage and everything should have been top notch. They were close, but still seemed a bit jumbled. I realized I had not looked at undesirable early reflection points. Looking around the room, I identified five different reflection points that needed attention. One was a typical sidewall first reflection. Two were from the ends of bookshelves, one was covered and the other had a board leaned at an odd angle against it to change the reflection angle. Two were computer monitors, thank you Savjack. It seems like the fastest approach is assume the surface is a problem and quickly give it a temporary treatment with a blanket or towel or whatever, and see if it makes a difference. If it does, then worry about a more permanent solution.

The soundstage simply crystallized, imaging tightened, those 5 little treatments made a huge difference. Every reflection matters. If it is not a "good" one, it is "bad" and needs to be absorbed, diverted, or diffused. Which one? That is an entirely new discussion.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Using towels to dial in electrostatics is something I had never heard of, what a good idea. Thanks Wayne.
I plan on going back to the Martin Logans just a soon as I sell the old stuff in the room, I am very excited about the research you have done and am looking to give it a go.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

In reference to the listening chair, there are some low back lounge chairs out there and I have found one that it very comfortable...to me of course. It helps me sit straight - ish and sits pretty well. They are not that expensive as the one I bought was an experiment, now I will look for a good one.










http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EHZDFHE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Good find on the chair. 1 thing to be aware of is that an ear height of 36 inches seems to be standard for many speaker designs, so a "proper" listening chair holds the ears at that height.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

AudiocRaver said:


> Good find on the chair. 1 thing to be aware of is that an ear height of 36 inches seems to be standard for many speaker designs, so a "proper" listening chair holds the ears at that height.


Interesting to know of the 36" thought. I have followed that the ideal listening height is to have the listener's ear level with the midpoint between the mid-range and tweeter. In the case of two-way speakers, the listener's ear should be half way between the tweeter and the closest woofer.

The height of the speaker can be changed or angled as needed if the chair remains a constant, however, you really hit the nail in that one should focus on the needs of the speaker and purchase furniture accordingly. 
When it comes to the ESL speakers I am sure that one must experiment which you have done to the max as I don't remember specifics in the owners manual.

Thanks Wayne for the suggestions.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Savjac said:


> Interesting to know of the 36" thought. I have followed that the ideal listening height is to have the listener's ear level with the midpoint between the mid-range and tweeter. In the case of two-way speakers, the listener's ear should be half way between the tweeter and the closest woofer.
> 
> The height of the speaker can be changed or angled as needed if the chair remains a constant, however, you really hit the nail in that one should focus on the needs of the speaker and purchase furniture accordingly.
> When it comes to the ESL speakers I am sure that one must experiment which you have done to the max as I don't remember specifics in the owners manual.
> ...


It is not a standard or anything I have seen published. Just whenever I have measured it on a fixed tower, that is almost always about what it comes out to.

Also, ear even with mid driver has usually given best imaging, for me anyway, not sure why.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

AudiocRaver said:


> It is not a standard or anything I have seen published. Just whenever I have measured it on a fixed tower, that is almost always about what it comes out to.
> 
> Also, ear even with mid driver has usually given best imaging, for me anyway, not sure why.


Excellent guideline. I sit at about 39" - 40" depending on how much I slump :innocent:
I am gonna try sitting a bit lower per your guidelines and see how that works. I have not really tried that before, so Thank You.


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## kevin360 (Oct 4, 2012)

Tall and slender, the planar speaker is quite the temptress, but she is a cruel mistress. If one discovers the depths of her delights, he will find himself ruined for less optimal setups. Arguably, the greatest nemesis in the reflection arena is inadequate time delay. 

As sound travels roughly a foot per millisecond, and the direct wave must arrive 10ms ahead of the reflected wave for effective precedence, a bare minimum of 5' should be between one's dipoles and the wall behind them. It takes yet another 10ms for the perceived comb effect to diminish acceptably, and even 10ms more delay until the reflection completely stops coloring the tone of the direct sound. 

Who has 15' to dedicate to the cause? If one eradicates those reflections, the planar magic is lost as their spaciousness collapses. Fortunately, we can capture a bit here and scatter a bit there for an acceptable compromise, but a compromise nonetheless. Real life imposes demands upon us all. 

The storm of activity which has been my life the last couple of months is beginning to wane and I'll soon have time to work at optimizing my new setup. My brain is still adjusting to, more than anything else, I think, the non-ribbon tweeters. 

The top of my seat back is just above my shoulders, as long as I don't slump. Sometimes, I do slump. Sometimes, I recline fully. Sometimes, I have a nap.

(EDIT: Freudian slip - typed 'lust' instead of 'just' in the sentence after mentioning those glorious ribbon tweeters)


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

kevin360 said:


> Tall and slender, the planar speaker is quite the temptress, but she is a cruel mistress. If one discovers the depths of her delights, he will find himself ruined for less optimal setups. Arguably, the greatest nemesis in the reflection arena is inadequate time delay.
> 
> As sound travels roughly a foot per millisecond, and the direct wave must arrive 10ms ahead of the reflected wave for effective precedence, a bare minimum of 5' should be between one's dipoles and the wall behind them. It takes yet another 10ms for the perceived comb effect to diminish acceptably, and even 10ms more delay until the reflection completely stops coloring the tone of the direct sound.
> 
> ...


I have worked with an eighth millisecond relative delay between front and rear waves and gotten really good results with it. Right now it is closer to 10 milliseconds, and yes that is definitely an improvement.

Going out on a limb here, I am going to say that the rules we often hear about precedence and perception of time delays were written under test conditions and circumstances that simply did not try to cover the kind of detail we are perceiving in terms of the sound stage and imaging. I dare say, it is highly doubtful that the test subjects had experience listening for the kind of detail we do in a really refined soundstage with precise imaging. The trained ear becomes capable of far more than the statistically sifted general population necessary for those types of studies.

No doubt, there are those who will drop big, important names and quote studies, and say I am crazy, and my response will be come on over and I will demonstrate it for you. Yes, we are talking incredibly fine increments of detail here, but that is exactly the stuff that a refined soundstage and imaging experience is made of.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

AudiocRaver said:


> The trained ear becomes capable of far more than the statistically sifted general population necessary for those types of studies.
> 
> No doubt, there are those who will drop big, important names and quote studies, and say I am crazy, and my response will be come on over and I will demonstrate it for you. Yes, we are talking incredibly fine increments of detail here, but that is exactly the stuff that a refined soundstage and imaging experience is made of.



Perfectly said, this statement covers audio in general, and NO you are not crazy, I have been hearing the minor and major differences for years and love it.,its actually addictive and once heard it can never be unheard.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

I'm just thankful the OP had the brilliance and insight to start this fascinating thread so we could explore and enjoy so many fine subjects, from science to psychology to acoustically-acceptable recliners. It's a shame though that he has little more to contribute to the discussion other than to suggest to other audiophile-wannabe friends to choose the lowest torque setting on the drill when you screw the boards to the wall.onder:

In due time learn will I...now, carry on you audio Obi-Wan's and Yoda's


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> Perfectly said, this statement covers audio in general, and NO you are not crazy, I have been hearing the minor and major differences for years and love it.,its actually addictive and once heard it can never be unheard.


Un-hear this! I am crazy (and certifiable to boot). Why? I am seriously considering-- nay, have already begun--disassembling my two channel rig. FWIW, I did try a subset of Wayne's Rules, but I'm fighting the room, which swamped all gains. In the end, I set out to accomplish more than I dreamed, and dreamed to accomplish more than I could. I feel I brought the system to the highest level of performance it and I were capable of. I've made myself crazy-happy with music, and educated other audio buddies in the process. My job is done here. Time to move on to the next insane, challenging hobby (home theater). Besides, my wife would like to reclaim the home (my equipment and I have taken over much more than the lions share). Time to infuse a sense of harmony in our lives. Start over. Become one with the theater-verse. Square One... Get rid of high back chair!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

We are all having a bit of "serious fun" exposing our levels of certifiability to each other... well, here goes with my latest:

I have recently attached panels to the front wall, each with 3 anchor-mounted long-threaded screws, 1 top and 2 bottom, so any angle can be achieved and any spacing from the wall. Monday night & Tuesday I was "dialing in" the distance and angle with mirror and laser distance meter, had decided to see how close I could get it by ear, without impulse diagram measurements. It involved a little trial & error, got it sounding close, meaning the delayed arrivals of the rear waves were very close, could tell by the sense of impact and the imaging tightness and integrated (front and rear) soundstage clarity, continued to move just the right panel to find the peak of goodness - first by turning all three nuts on that side a full turn at a time to not mess up the aim, so that worked out to 1 mm movement increments - then down to 1/6 turn at a time - then just turning the top one 1/6 turn at a time - do I qualify for insanity yet?

There are a couple of tracks where a single syllable of vocal echo hangs out in space by itself for a half second, like a little 3-d blob of sound, and I remember once hearing it so sharp and clear it was as though an outline had been drawn around it, so that was what I was trying to reproduce. My final move of that top nut was down to 1/12 of a turn, and there it was, that echo was etched in space. There was/is as much impact as with any horn system I have heard, plus dipole spaciousness, plus image clarity as good as I have gotten, and with the right mix a clear separation of all the sounds in the soundstage.

Doing a few calculations, with the final adjustments - being able to hear the difference in image clarity of that echo - moving the reflection point on the panel about 1/24th of a mm, that works out to a change in the delay time of that side vs. the other of less than 0.2 uS. Feel free to check my math, I did it several times, but it still boggles the mind that we can hear the effect of that fine a change under the right conditions.

The studies about precedence state that the delayed sound appears to come from the direction of the first sound, with a possible "change of timbre." "It might sound a little different." All of the fine detail we experience as imaging and soundstage and detail and cohesiveness and impact and clarity and spaciousness - chalked up to a "change of timbre." All due respect to those important studies, of course, they were simply not intended to cover what we are hearing in the refined soundstage experience.

Good thing you guys don't know where I live, 'cept for Tesseract, so hopefully I am safe from being put away as a lunatic, at least not this week. The problem, of course, is now I can't shut the system down and get anything else done.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Time to move on to the next insane, challenging hobby (home theater). Besides, my wife would like to reclaim the home (my equipment and I have taken over much more than the lions share). Time to infuse a sense of harmony in our lives. Start over. Become one with the theater-verse. Square One... Get rid of high back chair!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using HTShack


I just can't get overly excited about HT and I don't really know why. I don't believe I'm any kind of stereo purist as I do enjoy being immersed in a good movie. But given a choice, my default is always music. Maybe it's just because alot my gear is still new to me, and this kind of sound is still new to me, hence it's just a new experience all the way around. Perhaps when the shiny-ness wears off I'll be inclined to paint the walls red, hang a projector from the ceiling and add the 150" motorized screen along with another lazy boy recliner but with the all-important cupholders. That does sound kinda fun now that I say it out loud. just curious, will we need to laser align the projector optics...


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Talk about attention to detail, Wayne you have done the deed and I am sooo jealous. I wish I had your tenacity as I am sure, once dialed in, sonic wonderfulness hits your ear/brain interface and a smile develops. I do wish I knew where you lived, I bet a visit would be something else.

Now all you need is to experience tubes and the sound-stage they can make, you might go over the top once again. :R

I can get very close to an excellent soundstage, but its those last little "You are there" moments that I have been missing. I recently purchased the proper mic, SPL meter and REW and will start working on my room this weekend in an attempt to get things as good as I possibly can. Again, Thank You for doing this work and reporting it back here.

Oh and may I know which laser measurement tool you use, I think I will get one of those as well.


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## 480dad (Jan 22, 2015)

AudiocRaver said:


> first by turning all three nuts on that side a full turn at a time to not mess up the aim, so that worked out to 1 mm movement increments - then down to 1/6 turn at a time - then just turning the top one 1/6 turn at a time - *do I qualify for insanity yet?*
> 
> My final move of that top nut was down to 1/12 of a turn, and there it was, that echo was etched in space.
> 
> - moving the reflection point on the panel about 1/24th of a mm, that works out to a change in the delay time of that side vs. the other of less than 0.2 uS.


Do you sometimes hear little voices? and if so, do you ever answer them?

Actually, I think someone needs to put your ears in the smithsonian!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Wayne. You are insane. ...in the membrane. 
In the absolute best way. And people think I'm crazy for suggesting they can't put all 5 satellites from the htib on the entertainment center with the TV! I love this thread. It's got me tweaking my stuff again, and most of all(when I have any time whatsoever), listening.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Little voices? Doesn't everyone hear those?

Uh oh.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

I still cannot get over the fact that what got this chase started over a year ago was when I first set up the speakers in this room, I got that quality of imaging and soundstage totally by accident, just set them down, turn them on, and there it was. A fraction of a millimetre either way, & I never would have known it was possible. THAT is actually quite spooky.

Part of what makes the soundstage work so addictively engaging, I think, is the fact that it involves not just the auditory, but also visual and kinesthetic senses. We are able to see precisely where a voice or instrument sits in the soundstage, and can feel kinesthetically the spatial relationships between the different sounds. Kind of a triple whammy. The payoff, when it all lines up, is huge, like walking around with 20 / 100 vision and having someone hand you perfect corrective glasses, and the world is suddenly crystal clear. It is especially fun to hear a recording that is fairly dense, a bunch of horns or voices for instance, that used to sound kind of mashed together, and realize that each one stands completely alone in the mix, every one of them razor sharp. And for some reason, the three-dimensional entities, like a little echo with some reverb that was mixed to occupy a certain area in space, when one of those pops up completely alone and surrounded by stark silence, my personal sonic processor does a little somersault everytime. There is one little echo blob on one track that is coming from slightly behind my right shoulder. I do not know how on earth that is happening, but it gets a big smile every time.

Perhaps a slight downside is having to surround the set up with crime scene tape and warnings for no one to touch or breathe up on anything, for fear something might get nudged or jostled. A small price to pay.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Wayne, I'm just curious, when you're talking about adjustments of fractions of a mm, how much latitude do have at the LP for sitting in the right place? Or is it more like a rifle, in that if you fire it at a target at say 10' distance and miss the bullseye by one inch, is its trajectory off say 10" by a target distance of 100'. Conversely making the sweet spot window larger by the time it reaches the LP. Not sure if I asked that in a clear enough fashion. 30 min is up. Back in the funny farm....


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Wayne, I'm just curious, when you're talking about adjustments of fractions of a mm, how much latitude do have at the LP for sitting in the right place? Or is it more like a rifle, in that if you fire it at a target at say 10' distance and miss the bullseye by one inch, is its trajectory off say 10" by a target distance of 100'. Conversely making the sweet spot window larger by the time it reaches the LP. Not sure if I asked that in a clear enough fashion. 30 min is up. Back in the funny farm....


A very good question. For some reason, even with that level of precision required in matching the timing of the reflections, it seems to be relative to the timing of the front wave mainly, and some shifting left or right is possible without really throwing it off. I do not totally understand how that works. The soundstage shifts a little bit with you, but does not fall apart. Same for shifting forward or back slightly, the clarity might reduce slightly, but does not come apart at the seams.

I will qualify that with another couple of details. The current setup involves an experimental alignment where the ESL panels are tilted more straight up and down than they normally sit. The purpose was to try to get the ears and the front and rear perpendicular radiation points on the ESL panels and the reflection points on the wall mounted panels along with the reflected waves traveling from there to the ears all in the same plane to see if that would give the soundstage more horizontally-focused energy and a more natural horizontal presentation. I think it does a little, but now the ESL sweet area is not being utilized and there is greater sensitivity to head movement than usual with the ESL sitting as they are typically set up. With the ESL set with the normal amount of tilt, the front wave tends to come from the lower sweet area and the rear reflected wave from higher up the panel where there is another pretty good sweet area, as luck would have it, or maybe those MartinLogan guys are a lot smarter then we already give them credit for, but anyway that setup allows for quite a bit of latitude in seating position. The soundstage will always shift a bit with head movement, but stays very clear and consistent, which is the main thing. This version of the soundstage also has a lot more vertical spread, which is fun in itself. The three-dimensional sound stage is spread out and provides more spacial detail, whereas the more focused soundstage has slightly more impact, a trade off and it is hard to say which is more pleasing. The three-dimensional soundstage has plenty of impact, believe me, so I probably lean that way. Plus the benefit of having more LP leeway probably tips the scales that way.

Back to your question, with the more typical ESL setup, which I will be going back to shortly, once I can force myself to move anything, there is a fair amount of latitude, except for the expected slight shifting of the center point with head movement. Hope that all made a little bit of sense.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

AudiocRaver said:


> ...Back to your question, with the more typical ESL setup, which I will be going back to shortly, once I can force myself to move anything, there is a fair amount of latitude, except for the expected slight shifting of the center point with head movement. Hope that all made a little bit of sense.


To add to your kudos, Wyane, I'd like to share the following passage from Art Noxon's _Home Theater Acoustics - Vol III_:
"To the literal reader, words create reality. But to the engineer and scientist, reality exists independently from words. Just because someone can dream up a sentence that seems to make sense doesn’t mean that it physically does make sense."


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