# Imaging



## derekbannatyne (Oct 7, 2006)

Hi, I use two channel audio when listening to my current DIY speakers, but they're not setup ideally right now. They're currently about 12ft apart from each other, but I sit much closer to one than the other. Once I get around to constructing proper stands for them and move them closer together, will the imaging improve? Thanks.


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## Phil M (Apr 19, 2006)

Derek, you should notice improvements. The key is to try and make the speakers dissapear, check out the Cardas guide to give you some ideas:

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

derekbannatyne said:


> Hi, I use two channel audio when listening to my current DIY speakers, but they're not setup ideally right now. They're currently about 12ft apart from each other, but I sit much closer to one than the other. Once I get around to constructing proper stands for them and move them closer together, will the imaging improve? Thanks.


I would think so. Another area you might address to improve the imaging of your speaers would be to add some accoustic treatments to your listening area. In particular, taming the first reflections I would expect to help. 

JCD


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Moving your speakers closer together and as JCD suggested adding some acoustic treatments should greatly improve stereo imaging.Symmetry is also important.If one speaker is closer to a wall or corner than the other then imaging will suffer.Ideally each speaker should be equi distance from room boundaries and the listener.


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

With all due respect to the others, getting your speakers a similar distance from you is what will improve imaging greatly. Stereo relies on your ears judging the delay and relative loudness between the signals arriving from each speaker. If your speakers are different distances from you then your ears just can't do their job properly.

It is better to have the speakers the same distance away from you whatever position they end up in the room with regards to the walls. They also want to be slightly nearer to each other than you are away from them. So if you listen at ten feet they want to be about 7-8 feet apart. If you listen from 15 feet then you want them 10-12 feet apart. Spread them too far apart and the image collapses back into the speakers instead of being spread out in front of you.

You could use short and wide concrete or clay pipes or even bricks or blocks as temporary speaker stands. Make sure whatever you use is completely stable with the speakers on top. You don't want your speakers doing a nosedive when you move around the room!


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

To clarify my ealier post: 

Of primary importance -- you should be equidistant from each speaker creating a triangle of some sort -- I've always assumed a perfect triangle is best, but have nothing "scientific" to back that up. The Cardas guide linked above looks to be a pretty good reference for that issue. My assumption (which may have been wrong) was that by derekbannatyne moving the speakers closer together, he created this "triangle". Another assumption made -- the speakers are not TOO close together.

In addition to being equidistant to the listener, I also would say that being at similar places in a room also makes a noticeable impact on the imaging, treatments or no. So, if one speaker is 2' from a wall, the other should be 2' from a wall.

To further improve the imaging, putting up treatments would be (my) the next step.

One issue that wasn't brought up was how much to _toe in _a speaker. This one I have to plead ignorance other than to play with different angles and see what sounds/images best.

JCD


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

F1 fan said:


> .Ideally each speaker should be equi distance from room boundaries and the listener.


Although I guess not clearly stated, the last line in my post was meant to suggest that the listener should be eqi distance from each speaker and each speaker should ideally be the same distance from room boundries.


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## derekbannatyne (Oct 7, 2006)

Thanks for all the responses! I just put some stands together today, which put the speakers at the same height and distance from boundaries. They're now about 1.5' away from the side and rear boundaries. The imaging has definitely improved, I can now clearly hear things coming from the center of the speakers instead of from the speakers themselves. The stands I constructed are just made of some 3/4" pine board and some 2x4s, $10 from HD.


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## Chrisbee (Apr 20, 2006)

I don't argue against trying to arrange the listening triangle to be reasonably symmetrical within the room boundaries. Placing a speaker near a boundary will lift the bass but it probably won't affect imaging very much. Imaging is largely a function of mid to high frequencies. The shorter the wavelength the better the ears are able to distinguish phase, time of arrival and intensity. The lower frequencies have such long wavelengths that it is difficult to distinguish the phase of the wave reaching the ears. Intensity of such long waves becomes a matter of room position relative to phase. LF directional information must rely heavily on harmonics to help the ears/brain make judgements of distance and direction. Trying to make such judgements about LF sinewaves is impossible. Those who say they can detect direction and distance of LF signals are hearing (and using) harmonics to make their judgements. If you can detect direction of LFs from your subwoofer then you are probably hearing and using harmonic distortion.


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

The two speakers should see similar acoustic envirements.If one speaker is placed close to a very reflective wall and the other is near an opening or an acoustically damped wall then the strong mid-hi frequency reflections from the one side will degrade the stereo image.Ofcoarse a properly placed acoustic panel on the reflective wall would improve matters.


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## Julien43 (Nov 26, 2006)

All of the above responses have some very good advice on setup and room treatment

I noticed that you DIYed your loudspeakers. Something that can be done to almost any design to make them image their best is to closely match the drivers and all the components in the crossovers.

I just thought is was worth mentioning 

Julien


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## F1 fan (Jul 6, 2006)

Good point Julien,if the two speakers have large response differences than imaging may shift to one side or the other.I used close tolerance components in my active crossovers to try and keep the responses of the two channels close.I didn't have the option of matching drivers but both SEAS and Vifa have a good track record as far as consistancy goes.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2007)

I've also found that placing large objects (ie. your stereo rack) between your speakers really affect stereo imaging. It's best to move your speakers out a bit in front of the rack(if rack is in the middle). 

Room treatmente will definitely help with the imaging as well by tightening up the image and making it more precise.


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

> I've also found that placing large objects (ie. your stereo rack) between your speakers really affect stereo imaging. It's best to move your speakers out a bit in front of the rack(if rack is in the middle).


Definitely, that's exactly what I was gonna say. The less you have between your speakers, the better it is for imaging, mainly in regards to depth.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2007)

I think above all don't be afraid to just move the speakers around to find the ideal placement within your room. You'll find that once you get the general placement correctly, the last few inches in movement will make quite a bit of difference. You have to be patient and listen to the setup for an extended time before making you adjustments.


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