# Need help on a Denon Receiver & Klipsch Speakers



## JSampson (Nov 6, 2010)

Well it's been a while since I have been on this site. There was a point in time when I was researching and researching my tail off for months at home and at work. I was obsessed. Well, I have lost ALOT of what I had learned and all of my bookmarks since then. So I need help.

One thing I know, is I am in love with Kplisch. I have always wanted a Klipsch speakers and noted that I wanted the following:

Front Floor Speakers: Klipsch RF-82 II - $600
Center: Klipsch RC-62 II - $400
Rear Surround: Klipsch RS-42 II - $215
Subwoofer: ??? 

Since 2010, I have thought about buying a subwoofer I used in my truck that alot of people use in their home theater system. Originally, I was going to use both of the subs from my truck, but unfortunately, the screws stripped out of the box and the subwoofers fell out and were halfway sitting on the floor of the cab of my truck. So I'm thinking about buying a TC Sounds TC2+ 12" subwoofer. They are excellent for both car audio and home theater use. They dig down low and have EXCELLENT Sound Quality. I'm not sure if anyone on here has heard of them or used them. They are rated for 500wrms, so I would have to find a pretty expensive amp. I guess this would have to be a project later on down the road and would just have to buy a 10 or a 12 to get me by for now. 

As for the rear surround speakers, I like the idea of 2 drivers on one speaker enclosure per side like the Reference Series has a driver on one side of the box and another driver on the other side. This eliminates having to aim the speakers. The speakers would butt up against the corner of the room up high with both drivers firing in the right direction so everyone in the room can hear them on my 20ft monster sectional suede couch


Cost of Speakers: $1215
Denon Receiver: $899
Cost of Subwoofer: Unknown

Total Cost without Subwoofer: $2144

So I am a bit over budget, but these are my dream speakers. :-(

So I believe that was 3 years ago. I am... well I hate the word as it's so negative, so I wont use it.. I'll use the word... not working... Due to medical reasons from a car accident several years ago where my injuries have begun to affect me now as the injuries have taken their toll on me

My uncle, who has plenty of money, but has no idea how much this sort of technology cost, wants a home theater system for his man cave. So I just so happened to have my entire home theater system with me in my Nissan Armada as I was moving everything to my storage. I decided to set it up in his house to see how he liked it. The receiver is great, the speakers aren't and the subwoofer is above good. 

It consist of:

Denon AVR-700
Speakers are from a HTIB I got 7 years ago for about a grand. They are Panasonic speakers. Front's are floor standing with a stand and the other speakers are bookshelf type speakers for the front and rear and then the center channel, but gets the job done.
Subwoofer is a Pioneer 8" powered sub and sounds pretty great for an 8" sub and is enough for him.

So he really likes it and wants to buy it. I'm trying to come up with a figure. I know I can squeeze out more money out of this system than it's worth. I know he's family, but he has no bills and can afford it, but I don't want to go too far with it. So I'm trying to sell it so I can upgrade my Home Theater System to a new Denon Receiver and Kplisch speakers. I'm thinking roughly $1800 including the professional installation I did, 100ft of very expensive OFC speaker wire, HDMI cables. He didn't have High Definition, so I called his cable company, requested an HD Box and got HD service AND actually reduced his bill by $12 a month. So he got an HD Box for free, HD Service for Free and $12 a month of his bill. So he's saving over $40 a month on his bill; $480 a month. 





Ok, sorry for that write up. Probably useless

So I have roughly a $1500 - $1800 budget

I want a Denon Receiver. I want a Denon AVR-X4311CI. I found one on Ebay with a Warranty for $889 - Free Shipping. Is it worth it for the Denon X4000? Do I really need it? Or should I just go with the X3311CI? (The X3000 has only 105w per channel as the X3311CI has 125w per channel) I like the X4311CI, because it has 140w per channel and the MSRP is the same as the X4000 with only 7 channels and 125w per channel. 

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Prod...033AV3311C&compareItems=01|033AVX3000&g=10420

So I guess that leaves me with $1000 for speakers.

Kplisch has a Reference Line that I suppose fits into that category. I'd prefer to pick out my own subwoofer as I want a 10" or a 12", maybe a 15" subwoofer with alot of power. The Pioneer subwoofer I have is pretty good so I could go with a 10" Pioneer powered subwoofer.

So I need some help on this. It's ok if the speakers aren't the newest model lineup. 

Sorry for the lengthy post.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

Couple suggestions.

First, it's tough to know the value of your old system and what to charge your uncle. IMO he's family so give him a deal.

Next, check out accessories4less.com. They carry lots of Denon receivers at a discount (factory refurb). Many of our members have had good experiences with the site. If I were going to go with a Denon, I'd choose the AVR-X4000 (or X2000 depending on budget). They have good power ratings and tons of features.

As far as subs go, check out our DIY sub forum here. You should be able to find several builds using TC Sounds drivers, and lots of suggestions for amps to use. Our DIY forum is great and you'll typically get much more bang for your buck with a DIY project if you have the tools. If you're going to buy something off the shelf I would suggest a budget of at least $500-$600 for a sub, based on what you have planned for speakers and receiver. SVS and Power Sound Audio subs are both great values.

Based on your budget I would recommend starting with one of the "RB" speakers from the reference series. The RF-82 would indeed be a great choice but would quickly blow through your budget.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Don't cheat your family... How would you like it if your dad sold you something for more than it was worth? IMO if you are going to sell it to a family member you should always give them a better deal than you could sell it for on the street, no matter how much they can afford. If you want to sell it for max cash then sell it to someone you don't know.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Really?? 
7 year old HTIB speakers and a AVR not listed on Denon's website and you're on here talking about gouging a unsuspecting relative?????
That's bad karma dude.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I would use the value my uncle uses: Never sell anything to family or rent (you never know what could happen). My Uncle used to have a ton of rental properties as well as cars for sale but he would never ever sell or rent to family for the sake of it falling back on him. 
I take that value to heart now as I know why his motto was as such, I wouldn't want some one from family to feal cheated. Guess what i'm trying to say is give the system to him for what he offers or less then half what you paid for it.
Just my thoughts and feelings.


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## jamesfrazier (Jul 24, 2011)

If your uncle is a smart enough man to have wealth, he will be a smart enough man to realize at least to an extent what he's getting; unless of course he has full trust in you and wouldn't second guess looking into what he's purchasing for what cost. Then that's just cheating an oblivious person, an oblivious family member.. Kinda sounds bad when you out it in perspective huh? I agree to everyone here, either sell it to someone else, or give him an offer you would expect from family..


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## JSampson (Nov 6, 2010)

Let me elaborate on my comment made about how much I am chargining him. I am selling him everything the same as I would anyone else, since I spent many hours installing everything. It was installed like a professional would have instald iice I m retinist an I am MECP Certified in Car Audio Installations. So whether charging him for the installation, I am selling everything to him at full price instead of selling everything to him at a discounted price + installation; which I spent from 10:00 at night to 5:00 in the morning, taking a few breaks, but everything from the professional OFC 14 gauge wires, expensive Monster RCA cables, HDMI Cables, etc... to setting up the Denon Receiver with using the Denon Microphone to set up 4 different seating/listening positions, advanced settings, EQ'd the speakers, setup his remote for all of his accessory sources, set up his XBox 360, XBox Live Account, Ethernet Cable ran from inside his house to his mancave, set up his VCR/DVD Combo (Why he wanted it, I have no idea) etc... 

So I did alot on this professional installation (no wires are visable also), plus the fact that I got him a High Definition Receiver, HD Service for free and lowered his bill as I stated above, which ended up putting a great deal amount of money by talking to his cable company for over an hour. Plus he has more than enough money to where I don't have to lose money just because he's family. I'm honestly not at all that close to him, but I'm still not overcharging him. Just wanted to make that clear.

So now that's out of the way, even though I'm not quite sure why it had to be pointed out to me, I still need help on my speakers, Denon Receiver and subwoofer on my budget. I still want Klipsch speakers; preferrably with floor standing speakers and for my rear surround speakers, I wana 2 way system where one speaker is on one side and the other speaker on the other side like the Klipsch RS-42 & the RS-52 surround speakers as seen here: 

www.klipsch.com/rf-42-ii-home-theater-system/details

or

www.klipsch.com/rf-62-ii-home-theater-system/details 

or 

www.kplisch.com/rf-82-ii-home-theater-system/details

I'm only looking for a 5.1 surround sound system in the meantime. Later, I will look into a 9.1 or 9.2 system.

If I can't get a full set of Klipsch speakers on my budget, would it be ok if I spent my money on the center speaker and floor standing speakers and then buy my surround speakers and subwoofer on lower, budget series or mix it up with another brand in the meantime for the other speakers?

The surround sound setup I really want is the Klipsch RF-82 II Home Theater System with:
(2) RF-82 II Floorstanding Speakers
(1) RC-62 II Center Speaker
(2) RS-52 II Surround Speakers

Is the SW-115 Subwoofer worth the cost? I was happy with the performance out of the Pioneer 8" Home Theater Subwoofer I had for being an 8". It wasn't crazy loud, but it got the job done, for a small-medium sized room. I want to go with a 12" or a 15" subwoofer, but don't want to overpay for them. I'm a very experienced car audio installer and enthusiast, so I know in the car audio world; subwoofer quality and size makes a worlds amount of difference in sound quality and loudness (SQ & SPL.) In the HT world, is that the same case? As in is it as important for subwoofers as it is for HT as it is for car audio? I can see how there would be more leniency in the HT world, as long as I'm not spending several thousands of dollars on my HT setup. 

My car audio system consist of Focal Utopia 6W2 6.75" Component Speakers in the front, Focal K2P 6.75" Component Speakers in the rear and FOUR Sundown Audio SA-8 V.2 Stock SPL modified to handle 1000wrms, maybe more, from 600wrms stock power handling with different swapped out voice coils, swapped out the spider packs and added 2 more for more power handling and better low end frequency response off of 2 1800wrms amps. My Focals will be powered by two 4 channel amplifiers that will either be bridged for 360wrms x's for the Utopias and 280wrms -'s 2 for the K2P's or will ditch the passive Focal Crossovers and go active. All running off of JVC's flagship model KW-NT800HDT, which I haven't installed my new one yet (had to send my previous 800HDT, because it was damaged in a rollover accident. Was replaced for free! And its not refurbished. Love this Navigation, but I want to sell it so I can get Pioneer's flagship Navigation because it has a feature I want; Accepts Android Smartphones. It's the only one I'm aware of that doesn't accept iPhones ONLY. If interested, PM me.


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## jamesfrazier (Jul 24, 2011)

Check new eggs sale on the Klipsch synergy series. Don't know anything about them but they are cheap and available.


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## JSampson (Nov 6, 2010)

Thanks. I'll checkout NewEgg. I'm also looking at Ebay from a reputable dealer who has 99-100% Positive Feedback Rating or maybe a set of used speakers. I want to buy just the speakers and buy the subwoofer separetly, because I want to buy the subwoofer I want. 

I'm looking at their Synergy Series. I would have to ditch the fact that I want the RS-41 II or RS-52 II Surround Speakers. 

Does anyone have any experience with Klipsch's Reference Series or their Synergy Series? Unfortunately, I can't go demo this anywhere unless I find a good home theater place when I travel back to Dallas. Even then, I have found that demo rooms aren't EQ'd for each of the speakers on the switchboard if any EQ'ing has been done at all, it was probably EQ'd for one set of speakers and the other set of speakers on the switchboard are out of EQ'd balance. I'd have to find a good shop where they have a separate receiver for each Surround Sound Speaker setup



jamesfrazier said:


> Check new eggs sale on the Klipsch synergy series. Don't know anything about them but they are cheap and available.


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## flamingeye (Apr 2, 2008)

I had both types of Klipsch speakers that you machined and I personally wouldn't go for the synergy the reference series are the better performers by far


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## JSampson (Nov 6, 2010)

How much of a price difference is there between the two series? That's my deciding factor unfortunately. 

If it all comes down to it, I'll just buy the Klipsch Reference Series Fllorstanding RF-82 II speakers and the Reference RC- Center Channel and run whatever I can for the surround speakers and the subwoofer. 

I just thought of this. I know car audio and home theater speakers are different in a lot of ways, but I have a set of Focal Performance PS165 Component Speakers (Car Audio Speakers) that have passive crossovers, 6.5" midrange speaker and a pair of tweeters. I can build a couple of boxes and fit those into them. My question is, would it sound right? Also, would my Denon receiver be able to handle a 4 ohm load? I believe most HT speakers are 8 ohm right?




flamingeye said:


> I had both types of Klipsch speakers that you machined and I personally wouldn't go for the synergy the reference series are the better performers by far


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## JSampson (Nov 6, 2010)

Also, I was planning on using both of my TC Sounds TC1000 12's in a ported DIY Subwoofer a few years ago. Well they are gone.. SO..

I just bought a TC Sounds TC9 12" Subwoofer for my own DIY HT Subwoofer Project. I plan on using all of the power handling capabilities of 800-900wrms in a 2.5 cu ft net ported box. Not quite sure what to tune this to. I was thinking of 17-20Hz. Any thoughts on this tuning? Also can anyone recommend a quality amp that won't break the bank?


Specs:
Fs - 26.5hz
Cms - 187.8 um/N
Mms - 192.1 g
Qts - .321
Qes - .341
Qms - 5.562
Re - 3.156
BL - 17.2 T*m
Sd - 78.54 sq.in.
Sens - 87.71 1w/1m

Also, as my post above, was thinking of using my Focal Performance PS165 6.5" Components as my rear surround sound speakers (My concerns are the impedance. They are 4 ohm and not sure if the Denon's can accept 4 ohm's.)
Atleast till I can afford to get the RS-41 II, RS-42 II or the RS-52 II if I can afford the Center RC-42 II, RC-52 II or the RC-62 II and the Floor-standing RF-42 II, RF-52 II or the RF-42 II speakers. 

I know there is a great deal of price differences in the 5 different Reference Series Klipsch HT Speakers, but are they worth the price differences? Does one of them stick out more than the other; negatively and positively? 

I know I have alot of questions, but I am reading and researching to try to catch back up to my knowledge of Home Theater like I did in 2010. SO my last question is... What are your thoughts on Focal Home Theater Speakers? Are they worth the significant price increase? Are the tweeters a bit harsh like they are in car audio. I know Focal car audio tweeters are usually metal dome so they can be quite harsh to the ears and can have a significant increase in fatigue to the ears. I have to carefully EQ my Focal's in my vehicles when I install a new H/U or amplifier or just doing a new install in a new vehicle, like I am now. It takes me a little time to do it, but once I set it, I continually EQ them over the following month or two once I start to hear certain frequencies over time and notice certain things that need adjusting.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Original content deleted due to your follow up posts.
..........................................................
As far as reporting anything to the mods concerning off topic, I really doubt there will be much sympathy since everything here is in direct response to your first post.


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## seanpatrick (Apr 16, 2013)

*" I know I can squeeze out more money out of this system than it's worth. I know he's family, but he has no bills and can afford it"*

Unless your uncle interfered with you as a kid or something, this is a pretty unethical course of action. Not worth screwing people over - family or not - so you can make a buck.


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## JSampson (Nov 6, 2010)

I don't see how much I charge my uncle for the Home Theater Receiver, 2 floor standing speakers, 1 center speaker, two surround speakers all by Panasonic, sell him the Pioneer 8" Subwoofer, sell him all of the expensive wiring, expensive cables, installation time and setup time of roughly 8 hours. Not to mention, I spent well over an hour on the phone to get him free HD, free HD Receiver Box and his bill was dropped by $12 a month. That's saving him well over $50 a month.

So when I say, I can charge this system more than it's worth, it's because I will be charging him more than it worth, because I included the very expensive OFC (Oxygen Free Copper) 14ga wiring, 4 HDMI Cables, 6 different RCA cables and so on on top of the time I should be compensated for. That's what I meant. I'm not going to sell everything all bundled up at the price I would if I just sold it to him at a discount, because he is family, and he installed it. But since I did ALL of the leg work and then some, I'm going to charge full price and get a little bit out of my time for installing it. Like I said, it looks professional just like my car audio stereo's do. 

Now, please, get back on topic. Next time this is brought up by anyone.. I'm just going to report you for not staying on topic. What I do with my stereo is my business. It's that plain and simple. It doesn't cause a ripple in your life or anyone you know, so to be honest. Knock it off


Now lets get back on topic.

Yeah, I was defenitely put my effort into the 3 front speakers. That's where most of the sound comes from. I think I can get this subwoofer done pretty cheap compared to others I have seen. 

I got the TC Sounds TC9 12" Subwoofer for $110 + $20 in shipping. I think $130 is a steal! I couldn't believe I saw it for that price as a Buy it Now. 

I have been looking at Parts Express for an amp, but there's not much selection in the wattage range I need without spending $500+ on the amplifier. It will have to be a pretty stout amp as the subwoofer is a Dual 4 ohm voice coil configuration. So it looks like I'll HAVE to run it at 8 ohm. If this was going in my truck, then I'd be running it at 2 Ohm. I'd like to find a good solid Class T Amp that will do 800wrms or more @ 8 ohm. Would be AWESOME if it had a Bass Boost (by decibels) along with a Bass Boost Frequency Knob (Adjusted by Frequency.) This is something I have with my subwoofer amplifiers in my truck. It allows me to set the Bass Boost Frequency at 30Hz and bump up the Bass Boost Knob to +10dB. So when 99% of subwoofers start to dive down in the 40Hz and below range, if I put the knob at the 30Hz Frequency, it will really hit the super lows in a car audio setup, when they typically roll off. It has a good Frequency Curve that can be tweaked with the Low Pass Filter. 

So I'd just like to know if there is a HT Sub Amp that has the Bass Boost Frequency Adjustment along with the Bass Boost Adjustment. 

Thanks!


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## seanpatrick (Apr 16, 2013)

JSampson said:


> So when I say, I can charge this system more than it's worth, it's because I will be charging him more than it worth, because I included the very expensive OFC (Oxygen Free Copper) 14ga wiring, 4 HDMI Cables, 6 different RCA cables and so on on top of the time I should be compensated for.


My apologies, I didn't realize you were taking into consideration the time you spent researching your gear for yourself, *AND* 14 gauge cables. Quite the deal!


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## JSampson (Nov 6, 2010)

Not sure why you are being condescending. No where did I say anything about my time "researching" anything. I said I spent a lot of time installing the HT system, setting up his XBox 360, his Xbox Live Account, setting up the Denon Receiver, remotes and EQ'ing all of the speakers, hooking up his wireless internet, running a CAT5 cable from his house to his mancave, which I also provided the CAT Ethernet Cable, the cost of the OFC 14 gauge wiring, the time for me to professionally install and hide the wiring, the cost of the HDMI High Speed cables, which cost me quite a bit. On top of that, me working with his cable company to get him free HD Service, Free HD Receiver while still upgrading his internet speed from 2Mb/sec to 6MB/sec all for free and lowering his bill $144 a year by taking off $12 a month. So by talking to his cable company for well over an hour and a half, I saved him over $350 a year and the 8 or so hours it took for me to install EVERYTHING mentioned above. So yes, it's a of a deal for a Denon Receiver and $800 set of 5 speakers and $350 powered subwoofer. So for $1800 top price I mentioned, yes, its a hell of a deal; even for a family member. The speakers are the top of the line versions of Panasonic's Home Theater Series speakers, which has floorstanding speakers, not bookshelf type.

I asked you to stop being off topic politely. How much I charge someone, who you don't even know or is even on the forum, is none of your business. Actually if I had my HT setup for sale on this message board, you would be breaking the rules by post dumping in my For Sale Thread. You are actually post dumping in my thread already. You aren't contributing to my thread or my questions. Do you just enjoy being an to people on the board in hopes to get their thread locked? How are you contributing to this forum at all? You don't even know what the speakers are, nor were you there to help me install the HT, TV, Cable Services, Internet Services, his monthly billing, XBox Live Account, running his Ethernet Cables, setting up his other components and so on, so how can you be bashing how much I'm charging. For all you know, these speakers could be worth $1300 and the subwoofer $500 and he'd be getting the installation, the Denon Receiver, wires, HDMI cables, RCA Cables, etc... all for free. I totaled everything up after researching how much they cost and I could actually sell this stuff for a little over $570 more without the 8 hour installation and the close to 2 hours on the phone with his cable,internet company and driving to his cable company's office to switch out the box way across the other side of the city. 

So I don't understand why you don't understand this. Even if I was overcharging him, which I'm hugely undercharging him just in equipment alone for the total cost, what is it to you? For all you know, he could have been a complete A-Hole to me my entire life. You don't know my family, nor do you know me, so I'm going to ask you again nicely one more time, if you don't have anything, on the subject, then please don't post in my thread/s. Like I said, I don't get where you are getting the whole, my cost of me researching stuff for myself. I don't know where you got that from. 



seanpatrick said:


> My apologies, I didn't realize you were taking into consideration the time you spent researching your gear for yourself, AND 14 gauge cables. Quite the deal!


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## jamesfrazier (Jul 24, 2011)

He's apologizing, simple as that. No need to continue an already closed argument.


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## JSampson (Nov 6, 2010)

jamesfrazier said:


> He's apologizing, simple as that. No need to continue an already closed argument.


I originally read it as an apology. Then I re-read it. He's being sarcastic. It's clear when he mentions about my time spent "researching for myself and the 14 gauge wiring." And he quoted only a few sentences of my entire lengthy post when I said the word "overcharge."

It's pretty clear. But i'd rather be done with it, let alone not have had stupid off-topic posts having to explain myself. Now this thread is full of this topic. Much like this one myself.


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## JSampson (Nov 6, 2010)

Anyways, I finally did the research on the prices I spent and the prices on the Denon receiver, my flagship series line of the Panasonic Home Theater speakers I bought several years ago and the powered HT subwoofer I bought. 

I spent $2643 just in those three things alone. 

I came up with a price to sell him, for this alone: $1647-$1997. So I'm going to offer him to sell everything, plus all of the expensive 14ga OFC wiring, HDMI cables, RCA cables, etc... for an even $2100. He might haggle with me and probably end up at an even $2000. I'm fine with that I guess, even though the extras cost me over $300. All of the labor and what I saved him on his cable/internet bill with free upgrades will be a Christmas present. LOL

So my subwoofer will be here on Tuesday. I have figured out I either need to run each Dual 4 ohm Voice Coil off of one plate amp each or I have found a couple rack amps around $300-$400. All in all, I'll have a bad Subwoofer setup for around $400 with the TC Sounds TC9 12" Subwoofer that can take 800-900wrms. Just need to figure out what kind of tuning I am going to design the port with. Still don't know as I'm not sure if I want to drop down to the teens or keep it in the low 20's. It has an Fs of 25Hz. I think what's going to matter is which Reference Series of the Klipsch Floorstanding speakers I can afford, whether it be the RF-42 II, RF-52 II, RF-62 II or the ultimate RF-82, while still being able to afford the Reference Series Center speaker, depending on which one. I'm not sure if I want to spend the cash on my front stage and get the rear Reference Series Surrounds later or get everything all at once, while having to get the lower end of the entire Reference Series together. 

Anyone have any recommendations on this debacle I'm in?


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## jamesfrazier (Jul 24, 2011)

I say spend quality money on your mains, and add on as you can. You would hate to buy the lower quality gear and wish you would of gotten more. 2 quality fronts and a good sub will still sound excellent.. Plus you have more too look forward too as you continue to add to your set up.


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## JSampson (Nov 6, 2010)

That's true. Thanks for the input. And when I said lower end equipment, I was referring to going with the RF-42's instead of the RF-62 or RF-82. It will still be the high end Klipsch Reference Series no matter what. It's just that it might be a while till I get my rear surround speakers. I suppose I could buy some lower series Klipsch speakers for the rear. I ultimately want the Reference Series with a speaker and horn on each side and those are costly.

I'm also not sure if I want to stay with my favorite brand of car audio speakers or not; Focal. Anyone have any experience with both Focal vs. Klipsch? I haven't quite explored the prices on Focal or not. My best friend of mine, use to install full blown Home Theater and Home Cinema's in multi-million dollar houses. He installed a home theater cinema in Michael Young's house in Richland Hills (Dallas. Texas Ranger outfielder). Well... he has always preached about SpeakerCraft. I'm not sure if he was saying they were some of the best or they were some of the best for the price. Maybe that they were cheap, but performed way past their price. Unfortunately, I can no longer speak to him anymore, so I can't ask him. It sounds low-end to me. Never heard of them till he talked about them.





jamesfrazier said:


> I say spend quality money on your mains, and add on as you can. You would hate to buy the lower quality gear and wish you would of gotten more. 2 quality fronts and a good sub will still sound excellent.. Plus you have more too look forward too as you continue to add to your set up.


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