# Another new guy with questions



## dkeller

Hello experts,

Yes, another new guy here with some basic questions. I'm finally getting around to finishing our basement and plan to have one end of the big party room as a home theater. The total room dimensions are about 14' x 45' and I plan to have the theater couches at about the 18' mark leaving the rest for the bar and pool table. Basic requirements are to have a 5.1 system (or maybe 7.1) push the "theater" portion of the room (roughly 14' x 18' area) and have some type of B channel that can push basic/low-volume music to other zones of the house (bar, patio, garage, kitchen). Another requirment is for the AVR to interface seamlessly with an iPad (my wife is an Apple freak) so that everything can be controlled via the iPad no matter where you are in the house. Total budget is $4-5k, which will need to cover an AVR, projector, speakers, sub, and wiring. So, there you have the basic requirement. 

A good friend just got the Denon AVR-991 and Epson Home Theater 8700UB and loves them. The Denon reviews are excellent and they're already sleeping with Apple, so that's a plus. Looks like about $700 for the Denon (or similar) AVR and the projector will be roughly $2k. That leaves me with plenty of budget space for the speakers, sub(s), and some type of BluRay device. Now is where I need you experts to chime in:

- Thoughts on the Denon and Epson choices?
- Recommendations on speakers, sub, layout, etc. for both the "theater" room and the other rooms I need speakers in? [just to reiterate, I'll need 5+sub for the theater and then decent "pairs" of speakers for other locations in the house (bar, patio, garage, kitchen)]
- Speaker wire requirement?
- BluRay recommendation?
- Things I'm forgetting?

Thanks, 
New Guy


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## eugovector

Denon and Epson are both good choices.

Without seeing a basic floorplan, exact placement recommendations will be hard to make, but here'es that standard layout: http://www.dolby.com/consumer/setup/speaker-setup-guide/index.html

Speaker wire, monoprice, CL2 for inwall, and choose your gauge accordingly: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable

Blu-ray: i'm an HTPC guy myself. Bluray, Netflix, hulu, and anything/everything else for ~$400. If you want a stand alone player, don't break the bank. Oppo for bigger budgets, anything sub $100 for lesser.

Anything else: Acoustic Treatments. More than 1 sub to fill that big space.


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## Andre

Hello dkeller welcome to the shack.

Your requirement for wireless interface with an IPAD anywhere in the house will be your challenge, as far as I know the only whole home audio product that is made for the IPAD is the Xantech MX88 which will run you about 1k. Have a careful read on that product see if it does what you want and what other "accessories" will be required.

As for Speakers: "only listening will tell", go out and let us know what brands you like the sound of and which you don't. You may like a certain type of tweeter (Soft dome,metal, ribbon..etc)

I am partial to the cylindrical SVS subs myself, they are not fussy with placement, don't weight a ton and sound great.

Bluray is OPPO Digtal all the way.

Wiring...Bulk I found a Belden dealer in my area and bought high spec wire for cheap.


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## dkeller

Here's the basic floorplan of the basement room that I'm trying to fill. Diagram has basic dimensions on it.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Welcome to HTS. Denon and Epson and quire popular choices and what is great about recent Denons in that you can directly connect an iPod to the AVR without the need for a Dock which was the status quo for many years. The newest Onkyo AVR's also offer this feature.

While I have owned more Denon AVR's than any other Brand over the years, I have not purchased one since they were sold to a conglomerate that also includes Marantz, McIntosh, Snell, and others (D&M Holdings) While I love their Flagship Models, the 1000-2000 Dollar AVR's have been on a major diet when it comes to Amplifier Sections.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

Andre said:


> Hello dkeller welcome to the shack.
> 
> Your requirement for wireless interface with an IPAD anywhere in the house will be your challenge, as far as I know the only whole home audio product that is made for the IPAD is the Xantech MX88 which will run you about 1k. Have a careful read on that product see if it does what you want and what other "accessories" will be required.
> 
> As for Speakers: "only listening will tell", go out and let us know what brands you like the sound of and which you don't. You may like a certain type of tweeter (Soft dome,metal, ribbon..etc)
> 
> I am partial to the cylindrical SVS subs myself, they are not fussy with placement, don't weight a ton and sound great.
> 
> Bluray is OPPO Digtal all the way.
> 
> Wiring...Bulk I found a Belden dealer in my area and bought high spec wire for cheap.


Andre,

I'm a little surprised by your comment about the iPad interface challenge. After reading about the fact that Denon and Apple are sleeping with each other, I figured that the iPad interace would've been solved. Since the Denon can connect to the network (as can the iPad via wireless), is it a bad assumption that the iPad can interface and subsequently control the AVR?

Thanks, Dallas


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## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Welcome to HTS. Denon and Epson and quire popular choices and what is great about recent Denons in that you can directly connect an iPod to the AVR without the need for a Dock which was the status quo for many years. The newest Onkyo AVR's also offer this feature.
> 
> While I have owned more Denon AVR's than any other Brand over the years, I have not purchased one since they were sold to a conglomerate that also includes Marantz, McIntosh, Snell, and others (D&M Holdings) While I love their Flagship Models, the 1000-2000 Dollar AVR's have been on a major diet when it comes to Amplifier Sections.
> Cheers,
> JJ


JJ,

Thanks for the input. I've spent a lot of time on the site over the weekend and it looks like a wealth of knowledge and expertise from you and others. I look forward to all the input to help me fine tune the best system for our house. Although I'm not 100% sure yet, it sounds like there aren't many negatives with the Denon/Epson combination for the main HT components. Once I get past that hurdle, i'll need to solve the speaker situation.

Thanks, Dallas


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## Jungle Jack

Dallas,
Please believe that we will be here for every step of this exciting process. The number of speaker choices is truly mind numbing, but it would be good "homework" to go Audition some Speakers whenever the opportunity presents itself. You never know when you will be in the vicinity of an AV Store and it would definitely be helpful to get a baseline of what Speakers appeal to you.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

JJ,

Yes, this is an exciting process that's full of choices. I will hit the next AV store I see to get an idea of what suits my ear. More to follow.

Thanks, Dallas


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## Jungle Jack

Dallas,
I look forward to reading your findings. Also by doing so, it will also help us in recommending Internet Direct Companies that offer a similar Design, but are priced far less.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

Andre, JJ, and others,

Digging into the iPad control issue a little more and found the following on Apple's website reference Denon/Apple:

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/denon-remote-app/id388608880?mt=8#

Apple makes it sound like they now have an iPhone app for controlling the Denon AVRs, but one of the reviews makes it sound misleading and describes the app for the iPhone only with no corresponding app for the iPad. Having both an iPhone and and iPad, it sounds a little strange that the app would not work with both pieces of hardware.

Any experience out there with the new Denon/Apple features and interface?

Thanks, Dallas


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## Jungle Jack

Dallas,
Here is one for Onkyo that might even be more encompassing:http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/onkyo-remote/id417695144?mt=8

I have used an iPod with a Denon several times and must attest it is an fairly elegant interface. I must say that I am looking forward to Thursday when my Onkyo TX-NR3008 arrives as my HTC EVO 3D is actually DLNA Compatible and should show up similar to the way that Homegroup works on Windows 7. I am loving the idea of a Wireless Connection.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

JJ,

You'll have to let me know how the interface is with Apple on your new AVR. From reading the different reviews on the Apple website, it sounds like you can get some basic functionality between an iPhone/iPod and the AVR (Denon, Onkyo, and Marantz) but using an iPad for control isn't an option yet. That's very surprising, but maybe I just haven't done enough research. If these guys could solve that issue and provide a smooth iPad interface for controlling your AVR (and all that's plugged into it), they'd be Billionaires!!

Cheers, Dallas


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## dkeller

Doing a little research late last night and ran accross an app called iRule which describes itself as a Universal Remote for the iPad, iPhone, iPod Touch, etc. Will be curious to see if anyone has run accross it.


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## Andre

Well I guess I am learning something new. I always thought all you could do was sit you Ipod in the doc and play your Itunes. I had no idea that an Ipod/Iphone could control your system via wifi. Honestly I thought that was in the realm of Control4 stuff.


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## Jungle Jack

dkeller said:


> JJ,
> 
> You'll have to let me know how the interface is with Apple on your new AVR. From reading the different reviews on the Apple website, it sounds like you can get some basic functionality between an iPhone/iPod and the AVR (Denon, Onkyo, and Marantz) but using an iPad for control isn't an option yet. That's very surprising, but maybe I just haven't done enough research. If these guys could solve that issue and provide a smooth iPad interface for controlling your AVR (and all that's plugged into it), they'd be Billionaires!!
> 
> Cheers, Dallas


Dallas,
My iPod was stolen from my Car a few Months ago and I have not bothered to replace it. I just got my Onkyo TX-NR3008 today which is a day earlier than Fedex told even yesterday that it was coming. This concludes an almost 2 Month odyssey from my TX-NR3007 first going in for Service at a local Authorized Repair Center to getting a Brand New A-Stock 3008 to replace my B-Stock 3007. The story is so insane that it will take me some time to put it together in a cogent manner, but I will get around to telling the entire twisted tale.

Back to the 3008, it is amazing that it plays Songs from my HTC EVO 3D wirelessly. I would imagine it would have been the same on my 3007, but not with my EVO 4G as it was not DLNA Compatible. So cool not to need a Wire and Dock. Same goes for all of the Songs on my Windows 7 PC thanks to Homegroup.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Andre

The Denon app sayes it can be controled by an Ipad

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/denon-remote-app/id388608880?mt=8


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## Andre

Ok soooo, if your watching a video on the internet via the Ipads browser can you also watch it on the big screen without the need of a HTPC?


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## dkeller

Andre said:


> The Denon app sayes it can be controled by an Ipad
> 
> http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/denon-remote-app/id388608880?mt=8


Yes, I know that the Apple site says it's integrated with the iPad, but in one of the customer reviews lower down the page, someone is complaining that the iPad interface isn't done yet.


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## dkeller

Andre said:


> Ok soooo, if your watching a video on the internet via the Ipads browser can you also watch it on the big screen without the need of a HTPC?


Not sure if just the AVR can handle that. I also have AppleTV and I know it can do this for me.


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## Andre

lol now I am asking questions....

For example let say you get the Denon and the IPad interface works. So via wifi you will be able to control your HT. It also looks like you can pre-amp out Zone2 and 3, So I take it you can be watching a movie and someone downstairs listening to the radio and another to ITunes on a networked computer.

Those two zones are not enough for me and I don't think its enough for you (Patio, Bar, Garage..etc). For that reason I can only see more amps and distribution equipment in the plan and its those pieces the I can't figure a relatively inexpensive route to IPad integrate.

Does that make sense??


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## dkeller

Andre said:


> lol now I am asking questions....
> 
> For example let say you get the Denon and the IPad interface works. So via wifi you will be able to control your HT. It also looks like you can pre-amp out Zone2 and 3, So I take it you can be watching a movie and someone downstairs listening to the radio and another to ITunes on a networked computer.
> 
> Those two zones are not enough for me and I don't think its enough for you (Patio, Bar, Garage..etc). For that reason I can only see more amps and distribution equipment in the plan and its those pieces the I can't figure a relatively inexpensive route to IPad integrate.
> 
> Does that make sense??


If I can just get the iPad controlling the HT and Zone 2, I'll be doing cartwheels. From my research this week, that sounds like it's still a hurdle. Getting a Zone 3 integrated into the AVR/iPad duo is probably a bridge too far right now, so I'll either have to have a Zone 2 cover all my other areas (patio, garage, bar, etc.) or use some other source for a Zone 3.


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## Andre

sigh...I was wring my hands like a mad scientist.

We have an IPad and 2 IPod touches. Currently I have an old Denon receiver hooked to up one of the Touches feeding an speaker switch which feeds 4 impedance matching volume controls (basement, Mastbed, Main floor, Patio). Basically everyone gets the same signal and you can either choose to turn it off or turn it up...

Since we have all our music in Itunes I would be Super nice to run Itunes mutiplicatively (each zone listening to what it wants) from the same song library, AND have each zone able to control just as if you were listen to the Ipod with headphones. Oh and no IPod is linked to a specific zone. i.e. I can take my IPod from downstairs, turn off the sound and walk outside and turn the music back on out there, while someones else walks downstairs and turns the speakers on to what they were listening too..

mUhahahahha...wait....in two years some geek will give us total home voice command...Star Trek strikes again...


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## dkeller

Now we're on the same page....that's exactly what I want to get to, plus have a single iPad control it all from anywhere in the house! I think it's a bridge too far right now, but from my research this week, they're definitely getting closer. 

For now, I'll probably need to set something up similar to your configuration with a speaker switch pushing multiple rooms (with their own volume controls) on the same "Zone 2" output from the AVR and just have the HT at 5.1 with the B channel pushing Zone 2.


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## Andre

That kind of confiuration is way beyond me. That is an HTPC running software I will never understand feeding a computerized multizone amp and the differentiate between multiple programs running simaltaniously on the HTPC. I know when to hire a pro.

However that is a champange wishes and caviar dreams sort of thing for now.


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## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Dallas,
> Here is one for Onkyo that might even be more encompassing:http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/onkyo-remote/id417695144?mt=8
> 
> I have used an iPod with a Denon several times and must attest it is an fairly elegant interface. I must say that I am looking forward to Thursday when my Onkyo TX-NR3008 arrives as my HTC EVO 3D is actually DLNA Compatible and should show up similar to the way that Homegroup works on Windows 7. I am loving the idea of a Wireless Connection.
> Cheers,
> JJ


JJ....simple question -- why the move up from the 3007 to the 3008? As I've been doing a lot of online reading the past couple days (mostly on the Onkyo, Denon, and Marantz), I'm probably more confused than ever and my once simple requirements have gotten fuzzy.


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## Andre

- whole house control solution effortlessly controled by and Iphone, Ipod, Ipad
- Ditribute to 8 zones
- party mode (all zones) or different songs simultanieously and independently
- playback of up to four independent ITunes sources (external host required)

http://www.savantav.com/whole_house_audio.aspx

wonder how much it costs....


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## dkeller

Andre said:


> - whole house control solution effortlessly controled by and Iphone, Ipod, Ipad
> - Ditribute to 8 zones
> - party mode (all zones) or different songs simultanieously and independently
> - playback of up to four independent ITunes sources (external host required)
> 
> http://www.savantav.com/whole_house_audio.aspx
> 
> wonder how much it costs....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebq3_XNRM0g&feature=player_embedded


yup....how much does it cost?!?! Of course, they don't even hint at a price...all they say is "contact one of our dealers". Definitely sounds like they've solved our little riddle, but at what price? I'm hoping that their solution becomes mainstream in the next 6 months and the cost plummets so that we peons can afford it.


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## Andre

I sent them an email and will act the high roller and see if I can get a guesstamit


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## Jungle Jack

dkeller said:


> JJ....simple question -- why the move up from the 3007 to the 3008? As I've been doing a lot of online reading the past couple days (mostly on the Onkyo, Denon, and Marantz), I'm probably more confused than ever and my once simple requirements have gotten fuzzy.


Hello,
In May, my 3007 stopped outputting Video over HDMI. After a great deal of issues at the local Authorized Repair Center in my area, Onkyo had mercy on me and replaced my 3007 for a brand new 3008.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> In May, my 3007 stopped outputting Video over HDMI. After a great deal of issues at the local Authorized Repair Center in my area, Onkyo had mercy on me and replaced my 3007 for a brand new 3008.
> Cheers,
> JJ


That's not a bad deal at all (other than the frustration of dealing with that headache for a few months). I've been reading up on the Onkyo products today and of course, they all sound mucho impressive. I'm still very much a novice at this, but the Onkyo TX-NR709 sounds like it can do a lot of what I need. Of course, every time I read the next review on receiver XX, I'm blown away by it as well. It's amazing how far they've come since I last bought one (about 7 years ago). I guess the bottom line is I've earmarked roughly $1k for a receiver and I'm trying to figure out the best bang for the buck.


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## Jungle Jack

dkeller said:


> That's not a bad deal at all (other than the frustration of dealing with that headache for a few months). I've been reading up on the Onkyo products today and of course, they all sound mucho impressive. I'm still very much a novice at this, but the Onkyo TX-NR709 sounds like it can do a lot of what I need. Of course, every time I read the next review on receiver XX, I'm blown away by it as well. It's amazing how far they've come since I last bought one (about 7 years ago). I guess the bottom line is I've earmarked roughly $1k for a receiver and I'm trying to figure out the best bang for the buck.


.
Hello,
99% of the frustration came from the local Authorized Service Center and not Onkyo proper. Regardless, while certainly nice to get the newer Model and to get an A-Stock as opposed to a B-Srock, I would have been far happier if the 3007 was actually fixed the first time I was told it was ready (AVR was not properly Tested before being Released) that occurred 9 Days after taking it in.

Bear in mind that all AVR's have issues. The ironic thing is that I purchased 2 other recent Onkyo AVR's which are both functioning flawlessly 3 years later as I sold both to friends who live in the same place I live.
Moreover, the TX-SR875 I kept for the vast majority of the time was a Refurbished Model as I sold the 805 I purchased brand new I sold within 6 Weeks.

If needing to keep it around 1000 Dollars, your money will be stretched much further if you include B-Stock AVR's. Unfortunately, there is not a genre busting AVR like the TX-SR805 available for a grand (THX Ultra2, Made in Japan, Audyssey MultEQ XT, over 100 Watts into 5 Channels, and more) while all 800 Series have not been so well equipped. Even the more expensive TX-NR1007 stayed THX Ultra 2 for one cycle before going back to THX Select and dropping 12 Pounds of weight all from the Amplifier Section. The TX-NR1009 carries this legacy of being THX Select.

While if using efficient Speakers and using a relatively small Room, the need for a powerful AVR is not nearly as acute. Many AVR's these days are really de-contenting the Amplifier Stage to remain profitable while still offering the latest HDMI Spec, Surround Codec Licensing, etc. This is to the point that AVR's like Pioneer's uber popular VSX-1020 only output 28.7 Watts into 5 Channels. Sadly this is not a shocking development.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> .
> Hello,
> 99% of the frustration came from the local Authorized Service Center and not Onkyo proper. Regardless, while certainly nice to get the newer Model and to get an A-Stock as opposed to a B-Srock, I would have been far happier if the 3007 was actually fixed the first time I was told it was ready (AVR was not properly Tested before being Released) that occurred 9 Days after taking it in.
> 
> Bear in mind that all AVR's have issues. The ironic thing is that I purchased 2 other recent Onkyo AVR's which are both functioning flawlessly 3 years later as I sold both to friends who live in the same place I live.
> Moreover, the TX-SR875 I kept for the vast majority of the time was a Refurbished Model as I sold the 805 I purchased brand new I sold within 6 Weeks.
> 
> If needing to keep it around 1000 Dollars, your money will be stretched much further if you include B-Stock AVR's. Unfortunately, there is not a genre busting AVR like the TX-SR805 available for a grand (THX Ultra2, Made in Japan, Audyssey MultEQ XT, over 100 Watts into 5 Channels, and more) while all 800 Series have not been so well equipped. Even the more expensive TX-NR1007 stayed THX Ultra 2 for one cycle before going back to THX Select and dropping 12 Pounds of weight all from the Amplifier Section. The TX-NR1009 carries this legacy of being THX Select.
> 
> While if using efficient Speakers and using a relatively small Room, the need for a powerful AVR is not nearly as acute. Many AVR's these days are really de-contenting the Amplifier Stage to remain profitable while still offering the latest HDMI Spec, Surround Codec Licensing, etc. This is to the point that AVR's like Pioneer's uber popular VSX-1020 only output 28.7 Watts into 5 Channels. Sadly this is not a shocking development.
> Cheers,
> JJ


So are you saying that if I bumped my receiver budget up to around $1500ish, then the Onkyo TX-SR805 would be the way to go? It's a pretty large room that I have to fill with sound (45' long x 18' wide), so I want to make sure it's got the juice for it AND be able to handle future growth with speakers (maybe pushing to other speaker pairs outside in the future) via pre-amp outs.


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## Jungle Jack

dkeller said:


> So are you saying that if I bumped my receiver budget up to around $1500ish, then the Onkyo TX-SR805 would be the way to go? It's a pretty large room that I have to fill with sound (45' long x 18' wide), so I want to make sure it's got the juice for it AND be able to handle future growth with speakers (maybe pushing to other speaker pairs outside in the future) via pre-amp outs.


Hello,
The TX-SR805 has been discontinued for over 4 Years. Unfortunately, all 800 Series since the 805 have been a decent bit less powerful. The 805 is the only 800 Series that is THX Ultra Rated with all 800's since being THX Select Certified.

Even the TX-NR1008/9 are THX Select Certified whereas the TX-NR1007 was THX Ultra Certified. At this point, only the 3008 and 5008 are THX Ultra Certified.

While some are not big believers in THX Certification, I will say that attaining THX Ultra is far more difficult than THX Select. An Ultra AVR is rated down to 3.2 Ohms for All Channels and Designed for Rooms over 3000 Cubic Feet.

At 1500 Dollars, you could get a TX-NR3008 brand new from Newegg. They even sell it usually for $1249 during the Weekends. If wanting to spend less, Accessories4less has B-Stock 3008's for 1099. The biggest downside is that it has a 1 year Warranty as opposed to a 2 year Warranty on A-Stock Onkyos. However, Extended Warranties are easily had for reasonable sums. All the same, if Newegg has the 3008 On Sale again for $1249, I would go ahead and get an A-Stock as the price is relatively close. 

I just got my TX-NR3008 6 Days ago and absolutely love mine. In truth, I am using my strictly as a Preamp Processor and am not using the Internal Amplification. This is only because MartinLogan Electrostatic Models are some of the most difficult to drive Speakers extant. The overwhelming majority of Speakers are compatible with the Onkyo.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

The 3008 sounds like overkill for my requirements. Obviously it can do the job, but I'm not sure I need all that capability. I'll be running a 5.1 surround with maybe a 2nd sub. AVR needs to be 7.1 capable so I can run a B channel for the 2nd zone.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I would at least look for an AVR that is 7.2 as it offers Dual Subwoofer Calibration where both are Calibrated individually. With the 3008, you would have gotten Audyssey MultEQ XT32 which also includes Sub EQ XT which is fantastic. However, MultEQ XT with Dual Subwoofer Calibration is still worlds better than using a Y Connector.
Cheers.
JJ


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## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I would at least look for an AVR that is 7.2 as it offers Dual Subwoofer Calibration where both are Calibrated individually. With the 3008, you would have gotten Audyssey MultEQ XT32 which also includes Sub EQ XT which is fantastic. However, MultEQ XT with Dual Subwoofer Calibration is still worlds better than using a Y Connector.
> Cheers.
> JJ


Very good point. Just did a quick search and it looks like Amazon has them for <$1300....well within my budget range. I was hoping to get away for about $1000, but I'm ok with going over that a little to make sure all my basic requirements are met and there's still room for growth. Compared to the -3008, what other receivers are out there in that class from Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, etc?


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## Andre

Denon 4311CI


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Andre nailed it. The 4311 is the only other current AVR that offers MultEQ XT32 with SubEQ. Many people who use AVR's as Preamps like myself go back and forth with these Models. The Denon offers a Preamp Only Mode where the internal amplifiers are taken off line while the Onkyo offers all of the THX Post Processing and weighs about 20 Pounds more and is THX Ultra2 Plus Certified.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

Ok, I feel like I'm finally getting somewhere. I seriously doubt I'll ever get to the point of using external amps, but it could be a possibility. The biggest requirement for the unit is to handle all the video distro, push good HT sound for movies/games, and push music to the entire basement and another zone. The more I think about a 9.2, the more it makes sense for me since I want to push a 2nd zone outside for music while the HT is doing a movie/game for the kids. My novice take on all this advice is that the Onkyo might be a better fit, but I'm not jumping to conclusions based on my limited knowledge at this point.

The other big requirement, which I seem to be striking out on, is the ability for an iPad to control the AVR and all its functions, wirelessly.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Denon has an iPhone Application that I could only assume would also work on the iPad. So if Apple Compatibility is the driving factor, Denon would probably be best.


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## dkeller

Based on the iTunes website, both Denon and Onkyo are in bed with them, but it looks like the integration is only with the iPhone right now, not the iPad. My hope is that the iPad wouldn't be too far behind. Excluding the iPad issue/want, would you recommend the Denon or the Onkyo for my basic reqs?


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
With Onkyo, you can directly plug in an iPhone now without needing a Dock and it now includes Album Art. In the past this required an attached Dock. However, I am not aware of an Official iPhone/Pad Application that gives you Remote Control via Onkyo. There is a 3rd Party App on the Android Market for controlling an Onkyo and my HTC EVO 3D offers DLNA Streaming so I can now Wirelessly playback all Music Files I have on my Phone.

With Denon there is an iPhone App that provides Remote Control support and you can connect your iPhone directly to the AVR. I would think the same applies for the iPad in terms of connecting to the AVR, but I have not had a Denon in a few years and have not had an iPhone since the 1st Generation so I am not positive about the Streaming ability of the iPhone/Pad.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

I've got another month or so before I need to slap some $$ down and make a decision, but if I had to pull the trigger today I'd probably go with the Onkyo 3008 over the Denon.


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## dkeller

Another question....what are some good online stores to look at wrt getting great prices on the 3008? I want to start keeping my eye on things and figure out the cheapest place to buy it.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
The absolute cheapest place to purchase a 3008 is Accessories4less where they are selling it for $1049. This is literally 50% off. It is a Factory Recertified AVR, but it does have a 1 Year Manufacturers Warranty. Brand New or A-Stocks offer a 2 Year Warranty. AC4L does offer a very low priced Extended Warranty. You can also go to ShopOnkyo an get a Onkyo Extended Warranty for 2 additional Years for $84 Dollars.

If not wanting B-Stock, Newegg will probably be the cheapest Authorized Dealer. It is often discounted down to $1,249 on Weekends. However, I believe it is more during the week. Purchasing from an Authorized Dealer is essential for having Onkyo honor the Warranty so I literally consider it compulsory.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

JJ,

Very good point about buying from an authorized dealer. I'm inclined to buy a new unit, so I'll have to keep an eye on newegg. It's showing at $2100 tonight, so definitely not a deal. Amazon is showing it for <$1300 but there's no telling if it's from an authorized dealer. Is there any way to confirm whether a seller is an authorized dealer?

If you or anyone else sees the 3008 at something less than $1300, please chime in on this thread!! I get an email notification when this thread lights up, so if someone sees a great price, post it on here!!

Thanks for your continued help and support on this mission!!!!

D


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
If Newegg is showing 2100 Dollars, they are sold out. Make sure not to look at the Price List from Google as you need to put the 3008 in Your Cart at Newegg to see the Discount due to them being an Authorized Dealer and not wanting to run into trouble with Onkyo. Also, 1 Call has it for around 1250 as well. I truly forgot about it until now. Again, go to the Website and put it in the Cart.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## dkeller

good intel...thanks!


----------



## dkeller

JJ and others,

I'm back after doing a little more homework on things. Stopped by the Best Buy today to listen to some speakers and start figuring out what sounds best for my ear. Listened to the B&Ws, Martin Logans, and DefTechs. I understand that the room/setup has a lot to do with it, but honestly the DefTechs sounded the best to me. The BB guru that was talking with me also said the DefTechs would be the most versatile considering my sound requirements for movies, games, sports, and music. Of those 4 things, pure music listening is probably the least important. Considering the fact that I'm putting a 7.2 system in, I'm not sure I need the DefTechs with a powered sub built into the tower, but I'm by no means an expert (as you can easily tell). Any opinions on the DefTechs or other speaker options that are versatile to meet my needs?

On to the projector...I went to a projector warehouse and talked with one of their folks. Basically, I confirmed that the Epson 8700ub is a sweet piece of equipment. Looks like it'll run me about $2k online, but I haven't done serious homework on that yet. Based on my HT layout, it's right in the sweetspot for throw distance (17-19 feet) and will wind up having about a 135" diagonal screen. I know there are some different screen options out there (painted on the wall vs. fixed frame on the wall vs. hanging screen vs. etc) so I'm open to suggestions.

Also, back to the wife requirements (as you can tell from this thread, she's a true Apple lover)....I'm still striking out on the AVR wireless control via iPad, but I've come across the AirPlay capability. Looks like the Denons definitely have AirPlay, but does the Onkyo 3008 handle it? I can totally see the wifey wanting to sit out on the patio with her iPad surfing (just kidding) while picking/choosing music on the iPad and feeding those choices wirelessly to the AVR. If the 3008 doesn't have AirPlay, is it likely that Onkyo would bring that capability to the 3008 in the near future (via a s/w upgrade)? I mean, it is a networked AVR, so is it technically possible for them to update the 3008 s/w for AirPlay in the future? If not, I might need to reconsider the 3008 choice and maybe go with the Denon 4311.

Please chime in and advise...you've all been great so far and I REALLY appreciate the guidance!! At the end of the day, I just want to get it right and not have to worry about upgrading/changing things for a couple years.

Cheers, D


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
You could use the Airport Router that should allow you to stream iTunes to the Onkyo. However, given just how important Apple Support seems to be, it really would seem that the Denon would be the best choice.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> You could use the Airport Router that should allow you to stream iTunes to the Onkyo. However, given just how important Apple Support seems to be, it really would seem that the Denon would be the best choice.
> Cheers,
> JJ


JJ,

I know you've got more input than that!! You've been a stud WRT all your feedback and I need some good education on the speakers and other choices vs. the DefTechs that I heard today. While I did like the "sound" from them, I didn't really like the built in subs. Other alternatives? Other speakers I should go listen to? I truly appreciate all the help thus far!!!

D


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I am actually answering these Posts from my HTC EVO 3D and am actually out to Dinner on a Date. I am answering Posts much to hers and my friends annoyance. I have it setup where it does not read "Sent From my HTC EVO on the Sprint Network" or whatever it says. When I get home, I will try to elaborate.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I am actually answering these Posts from my HTC EVO 3D and am actually out to Dinner on a Date. I am answering Posts much to hers and my friends annoyance. I have it setup where it does not read "Sent From my HTC EVO on the Sprint Network" or whatever it says. When I get home, I will try to elaborate.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Wilco....enjoy the company and don't off the date!!! That's never a good idea, for a multitude of reasons!!! Same rationale for me which is why the Apple "requirement" is such a big deal for me. I could care less about it but the wife wants it. Have fun with dinner and your girl!! Peace out....


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Dkeller, this is now a 6 Page long Thread which there is no problem with. That being said, it seems that Apple Compatibility is the most important consideration when it comes to the AVR. This really makes the Denon the best choice for you. While the Apple Router or Apple TV could help to provide connectivity to a different Brand, the Denon will still provide the best integration.

As for Speakers, I personally am a huge fan of PSB. I would check out DMC-Electronics, Upscale Audio, and Saturday Audio as they all offer great deals on PSB. I also am a big fan of B&W, Focal, and Paradigm.

For what it's worth, Newegg is currently selling the 2100 Dollar Onkyo TX-NR3008 for $1149. This is only 50 Dollars more than what AC4L is charging for B-Stock 3008's. Without question, that would be the AVR that I would get. It does offer direct connection of an iPhone without a Dock.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Dkeller, this is now a 6 Page long Thread which there is no problem with. That being said, it seems that Apple Compatibility is the most important consideration when it comes to the AVR. This really makes the Denon the best choice for you. While the Apple Router or Apple TV could help to provide connectivity to a different Brand, the Denon will still provide the best integration.
> 
> As for Speakers, I personally am a huge fan of PSB. I would check out DMC-Electronics, Upscale Audio, and Saturday Audio as they all offer great deals on PSB. I also am a big fan of B&W, Focal, and Paradigm.
> 
> For what it's worth, Newegg is currently selling the 2100 Dollar Onkyo TX-NR3008 for $1149. This is only 50 Dollars more than what AC4L is charging for B-Stock 3008's. Without question, that would be the AVR that I would get. It does offer direct connection of an iPhone without a Dock.
> Cheers,
> JJ


JJ,

Thanks for all the feedback!! I think I might have the whole Apple piece solved via an app, and it's compatable with the Onkyo 3008. See this link for more if you're interested:

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/oremote/id393837174?mt=8#

It looks like it works with iPad or iPhone and there are a couple glowing reviews from 3008 owners. I'm keeping my fingers crossed! It's not Airplay (which the Denon has), but it looks to do the same thing. I also have an AppleTV, so that's another route I think I can go to solve the wife requirement.

So, with the Apple out of the way, I can get back to focusing on the speaker situation. Still lots of choices and learning for me in that department! From everything I've heard and read, speakers are a very personal taste so I'll try to listen to as many as possible. With a 7.2 system, I'll have to watch the budget a little, but it should be manageable. I think I'll have about $2500 to work with for the 7.2 speakers.

Also, now that I'm necking down my requirements & choices, I'll probably start a new thread (yes, these long ones get a little cumbersome) to get some final input from the crowd on here. If you think of any new great ideas for me, throw them my way! The Best Buy "Magnolia HT" consultant is coming to the house on Wed and that will probably open up a whole new can of worms (and questions) for me.

Cheers, D

ps. hope the dinner date went ok for ya!


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Just remember that a Consultant is going to naturally advocate whatever Brands they carry and more often than not the Brands where they personally make the most profit on.

At least for the Subwoofer, unless spending thousands, I would go with one of the Internet Direct Brands like HSU, SVS, eD, Epik, etc. For Speakers, these Brands also offer some excellent Models as well.

The PSB Image or Imagine Series would be a great choice and hopefully there is a Dealer near you as Paul Barton is one of the most gifted Speaker Designers out there.

If you could afford it, MartinLogan's EM-ESL is an amazing value at 2000 Dollars for the Pair. They offer almost all of the technology of the 4300 Dollar ML Vista for less than half the price. Also, there are some great values for used ML's on Audiogon. The problem with them is you really need to use an Outboard Amplifier to get the best out of them. 
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## dkeller

Totally understand about the consultants "pushing" their products. I doubt I'll buy any of my 7.2 speakers from Best Buy...I'll probably just buy the other speaker pairs from them for the other locations in the house (bar, upstairs, outside, etc.). I'll definitely get my subs via the internet...everyone says that's the way to go.

Looks like there are a couple of PSB dealers in the DC area, so I'll have to take a little roadtrip and listen to them. As expected, their website doesn't hint at prices. Any idea what their Image or Imagine series speakers cost?


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
If you go to DMC-Electronics.com, you can see prices on a number of PSB Speakers. Also, Upscaleaudio.Com has prices on PSB last time I looked.

Check out Ecoustics.Com it is a wonderful resource for links to Professional Reviews. Just enter whatever Brand you are interested in the Search Bar.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## dkeller

Very reasonable prices on the PSBs....definitely within my budget. I'll do some more homework on them and figure out which "line" of speakers suits my potential needs. Ecoustics definitely has plenty of reviews to read through.

Basic speaker question....with a 7.2 surround and 2 good subs, do I need mains with powered subs in them? I'm thinking not, but I'm an idiot when it comes to speakers (although I'm trying to correct that).


----------



## Jungle Jack

dkeller said:


> Very reasonable prices on the PSBs....definitely within my budget. I'll do some more homework on them and figure out which "line" of speakers suits my potential needs. Ecoustics definitely has plenty of reviews to read through.
> 
> Basic speaker question....with a 7.2 surround and 2 good subs, do I need mains with powered subs in them? I'm thinking not, but I'm an idiot when it comes to speakers (although I'm trying to correct that).


Hello,
You absolutely do not need powered Subwoofers in your Loudspeakers. Only Def. Tech and a handful of others even offer that. My Martin Logan Vantages do have 200 Watt ICE Power Amplifiers in to power each 8' Woofer, but it was done to make them somewhat more efficient and easy to drive. Even then, the Speakers are only rated down to 34hz so they are not even Subwoofers. Rather just Powered Woofers. Do bear in mind they retail for around 6000 Dollars and still drop down to 0.8 Ohms at the uppermost frequencies.

Even with them having Amplifiers built in, I still crossover all my Speakers to 80hz. The PSB's would be an outstanding choice. Ares, who is one of the Moderators here uses PSB Images and could not be happier.
When helping friends and family put together HT's, I have used PSB's probably 75% of the time if not more.

PSB's do amazingly when Bench Tested and I honestly have never read a Review that was not complimentary. It is a Speaker I can wholly recommend to folks even if they have not had a chance to listen to them. They are relatively easy to drive, are quite accurate, and are capable of high SPL's. In addition they excel in both Music and HT.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> You absolutely do not need powered Subwoofers in your Loudspeakers. Only Def. Tech and a handful of others even offer that. My Martin Logan Vantages do have 200 Watt ICE Power Amplifiers in to power each 8' Woofer, but it was done to make them somewhat more efficient and easy to drive. Even then, the Speakers are only rated down to 34hz so they are not even Subwoofers. Rather just Powered Woofers. Do bear in mind they retail for around 6000 Dollars and still drop down to 0.8 Ohms at the uppermost frequencies.
> 
> Even with them having Amplifiers built in, I still crossover all my Speakers to 80hz. The PSB's would be an outstanding choice. Ares, who is one of the Moderators here uses PSB Images and could not be happier.
> When helping friends and family put together HT's, I have used PSB's probably 75% of the time if not more.
> 
> PSB's do amazingly when Bench Tested and I honestly have never read a Review that was not complimentary. It is a Speaker I can wholly recommend to folks even if they have not had a chance to listen to them. They are relatively easy to drive, are quite accurate, and are capable of high SPL's. In addition they excel in both Music and HT.
> Cheers,
> JJ


JJ,

Been reading through multiple reviews on the PSB Image series and all are glowing. Very good product that's right in my $$ range. I also spent some time surfing through a few different audio sites with threads talking about PSBs matched with Onkyo. A few folks (no idea how smart/dumb these guys are) speculated that the PSBs aren't very efficient speakers and the Onkyo doesn't have enough power for such speakers. Any validity in those comments or are they just blowing smoke? I can't imagine the Onkyo 3008 not having the amps/juice for a set of speakers, but again, I'm very much a novice at this game.

Cheers, D


----------



## Jungle Jack

dkeller said:


> JJ,
> 
> Been reading through multiple reviews on the PSB Image series and all are glowing. Very good product that's right in my $$ range. I also spent some time surfing through a few different audio sites with threads talking about PSBs matched with Onkyo. A few folks (no idea how smart/dumb these guys are) speculated that the PSBs aren't very efficient speakers and the Onkyo doesn't have enough power for such speakers. Any validity in those comments or are they just blowing smoke? I can't imagine the Onkyo 3008 not having the amps/juice for a set of speakers, but again, I'm very much a novice at this game.
> 
> Cheers, D


Hello,
The 3008 would have no problems driving the PSB Images. PSB's are not Klipsch efficient, but were Designed with AVR's in mind. Ares is using a Pioneer AVR with his Images if memory serves and it sounds great.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> The 3008 would have no problems driving the PSB Images. PSB's are not Klipsch efficient, but were Designed with AVR's in mind. Ares is using a Pioneer AVR with his Images if memory serves and it sounds great.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Gotcha. I'm going to try and go listen to the PSBs this week down in DC just to confirm they are to my liking. From reading the reviews, they sound like they're a good match for my style, but I'll let my ears make the final decision. They're also within the budget...always a good thing!! As for the AVR, I'm still leaning toward the 3008. It seems to meet all my basic requirements and it's MUCH cheaper than the Denon 4311ci. From different owners threads, it sounds like it has a couple of warts (runs very hot, has audible popping sound when changing inputs, massive size/weight) but I'm not aware of any AVR out there without warts and downsides.


----------



## dkeller

JJ,

Another question for ya (yes, I'm full of them)...since it sounds like you're very familiar with the PSB products and the Image line specifically, would you recommend the S50s for the 4 surround speakers (I plan to put a 7.2 setup in) or go with something a little smaller like the B4 or B5 bookshelf speakers? The S50s look awesome, but I wonder if they're overkill for the surrounds (they're also a lost more expensive since I need to purchase 4 surrounds). Also, how are the PSB subs? If I go with the PSBs all around the walls, should I also stick with dual PSB subs or go with some of your other sub recommendations that you've thrown my way (HSU Research VTF-2 MKIII or the SVS PB-12NSD)?

As always...thanks!!

Cheers, D


----------



## Jungle Jack

dkeller said:


> JJ,
> 
> Another question for ya (yes, I'm full of them)...since it sounds like you're very familiar with the PSB products and the Image line specifically, would you recommend the S50s for the 4 surround speakers (I plan to put a 7.2 setup in) or go with something a little smaller like the B4 or B5 bookshelf speakers? The S50s look awesome, but I wonder if they're overkill for the surrounds (they're also a lost more expensive since I need to purchase 4 surrounds). Also, how are the PSB subs? If I go with the PSBs all around the walls, should I also stick with dual PSB subs or go with some of your other sub recommendations that you've thrown my way (HSU Research VTF-2 MKIII or the SVS PB-12NSD)?
> 
> As always...thanks!!
> 
> Cheers, D


D,
While I have not listened to the S50's yet, I do agree that they look like fantastic Speakers. Provided you do not have any budgetary issues with going with them, I would go with them.

I like PSB Subwoofers, but would personally go with the HSU Research VTF-2 MKIII or an SVS PB-12NSD instead. The Internet Direct Companies offer unbeatable value when it comes to Subwoofers.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## gtamayo

JJ: just being curious... you don't recommend the yamaha A3000 which is only $500 more , because.....? They won't drive the PSBs?

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I am a huge fan of the A3000. Moreover, now that it is being discontinued as the 3010 has been released, Newegg is offering a 500 Dollar Gift Card with the Purchase of the A3000. In addition to awesome Video Processing, the Yamaha is the only AVR which offers Passive HDMI Switching. That is you can switch HDMI Sources when the AVR is on Standby.

However, with the 3008 being available for 1150 from Newegg, it truly is an awesome deal. There have been some x08's that have had issues stemming from a bad batch of Serial Cables, but Onkyo is covering this issue regardless of where you purchased it from, and past the 2 Year Warranty should it occur. The best thing about the 3008 is that it offers Audyssey's amazing MultEQ XT32.

***The TX-NR3008 is now being sold for 1449***** They had it down to $1,149 during the Weekend which is just an insane price..

Cheers,
JJ


----------



## dkeller

I've been watching the 3008's price on Newegg for about 3 weeks now. Very consistent....$1449 M-F and then it drops to $1149 on the weekends.


----------



## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> D,
> While I have not listened to the S50's yet, I do agree that they look like fantastic Speakers. Provided you do not have any budgetary issues with going with them, I would go with them.
> 
> I like PSB Subwoofers, but would personally go with the HSU Research VTF-2 MKIII or an SVS PB-12NSD instead. The Internet Direct Companies offer unbeatable value when it comes to Subwoofers.
> Cheers,
> JJ


JJ,

Starting to look into the sub choices. Of the 2 you've mentioned, what are the pros/cons of each and what's the price I can find them at (and where) online?

Thanks, D


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Both Subwoofers are Internet Direct and are only available at their respective Websites. The PB-12NSD is no longer available. It is now the SB-12NSD and it is a Sealed Design with a 400 Watt Subwoofer. The VTF-2 MKIII is a Ported Enclosure, but includes Plugs that will make it quite close to being Sealed, but with lower output. The VFT-2 MKIII is available for $509. You could actually afford the VTF-3 MKIII for the same price as the SVS and even better the new VTF-3 MKIV that is a complete redesign and even offers 1400 Watt Peaks for 699. They also offer a beautiful Wood Finish of the Subwoofer for 799.

The SB-12 really looks like a fantastic Subwoofer. However, if not ready to spend that much, the VTF-2 MKIII is an excellent value at 509. If you can afford the SB-12, I think I would actually go with the new VTF-3 MKIV.
JJ


----------



## Ares

JJ mentions my name and I'll show up....eventually, I agree with JJ that the Images are not as efficient as most Klipsch speakers but they aren't power hogs either. I'm running my setup with a Denon 1910 which is "90wpc" and have no problem hitting ear splitting dB's , if I remember correctly the recommend minimum for the Image line was 50wpc. In regards to PSB subs their specs are on the conservative side and do perform better than their published specs but as you go up in RMS watts their prices go up fast, I bought the 6i last year which was $699MSRP but was able to get a B-stock for $400. So for the best boom for your buck I would look at the subs JJ has mentioned.


----------



## dkeller

Ares said:


> JJ mentions my name and I'll show up....eventually, I agree with JJ that the Images are not as efficient as most Klipsch speakers but they aren't power hogs either. I'm running my setup with a Denon 1910 which is "90wpc" and have no problem hitting ear splitting dB's , if I remember correctly the recommend minimum for the Image line was 50wpc. In regards to PSB subs their specs are on the conservative side and do perform better than their published specs but as you go up in RMS watts their prices go up fast, I bought the 6i last year which was $699MSRP but was able to get a B-stock for $400. So for the best boom for your buck I would look at the subs JJ has mentioned.


Ares....thanks for chiming in. Glad to hear a positive thumbs up for the PSB line. I'm going to a shop next week to listen to the PSBs, so hopefully they have everything I want to listen to. As for the sub, I probably will go with one of JJ's two recommendations. With the size room I have to fill with sound, I'll likely go with a 7.2 setup.


----------



## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Both Subwoofers are Internet Direct and are only available at their respective Websites. The PB-12NSD is no longer available. It is now the SB-12NSD and it is a Sealed Design with a 400 Watt Subwoofer. The VTF-2 MKIII is a Ported Enclosure, but includes Plugs that will make it quite close to being Sealed, but with lower output. The VFT-2 MKIII is available for $509. You could actually afford the VTF-3 MKIII for the same price as the SVS and even better the new VTF-3 MKIV that is a complete redesign and even offers 1400 Watt Peaks for 699. They also offer a beautiful Wood Finish of the Subwoofer for 799.
> 
> The SB-12 really looks like a fantastic Subwoofer. However, if not ready to spend that much, the VTF-2 MKIII is an excellent value at 509. If you can afford the SB-12, I think I would actually go with the new VTF-3 MKIV.
> JJ


JJ,

Both subs look extremely solid. The SVS (although a little pricier) might be better suited for me, mainly because the wifey doesn't want 2 huge subs sitting in the basement and the SVS volume is nice and small. Anything I should know on the cabling for subs? Also, based on my readings, I should generally look into having one sub in the front of the room and the 2nd behind the seating area. 

D

D


----------



## dkeller

JJ and others,

More questions as I research things....yes, I'm slowly working my way down the list of requirements. Topic this time is Blu-ray player. Looks like I should either drop serious cash (~$500) on an OPPO player or go the inexpensive route with a $100 BR player. I have no interest in 3D, so what are your recommendations on a player. We'll definitely be watching BR movies on the new set-up in the basement, but we aren't the type of family that sits around watching movies 3-4 times a week...more like a couple times a month.

D


----------



## Ares

Most mid-level and entry level BDP's have most features that someone looks for Netflix, Vudu, Hulu, etc. If you have a large collection of DVD's then looking for a BDP that offers the best upconversion would be a factor as well. Load times might be a factor for you if you suffer from the same disease I do called impatience but from your post above anything from the $100 to $200 range would serve your purpose, if you can provide more details in what features your looking for we could narrow it down to a couple of BDPs.


----------



## dkeller

Ares said:


> Most mid-level and entry level BDP's have most features that someone looks for Netflix, Vudu, Hulu, etc. If you have a large collection of DVD's then looking for a BDP that offers the best upconversion would be a factor as well. Load times might be a factor for you if you suffer from the same disease I do called impatience but from your post above anything from the $100 to $200 range would serve your purpose, if you can provide more details in what features your looking for we could narrow it down to a couple of BDPs.


Let me do a little HW on the features that I actually need and I'll get back with you guys. We don't even own a BR movie right now, so all of our DVDs are "old school". Outside of being able to play all our older DVDs, interacting with a modern AVR (Onkyo or Denon) and projector (likely Epson 8700UB), and performing typical network interaction (Netflix, etc), I'm not sure what functions I'd be interested in.


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
If not interested in 3D and starting out, allocating 500 Dollars on a BDP might not be the best idea. With the prices of BDP's plummeting, I would just look for a Panasonic with Netflix and Hulu at the cheapest price you can find.

While I absolutely adore my OPPO, it costs significantly more than most other BDP's and you can easily find a really decent one for 1/5 the price.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Speaker Fidelity

Hi - I have almost the exact situation. I am almost finished, just need the carpeting (with very heavy padding). 

I have the 8700ub. I guarantee that you will love it if you can get the room black. Buy curtains that will. I suggest that you buy projector local so that when you have questions, you will be able to ask someone for help. 

Here are some other considerations:

- Heavy carpet and heavy pad
- Double subwoofers
- Wire is not important, get the heaviest gauges that you can afford. At least 12 gauge is mandatory. 
- I am not in love with integrated amplifiers. You have no flexibility at a later time. Denon is great if you feel that you have to go the integrated way. I would rather buy used (less than 8 year old) equipment then new integrated. This is just me. 
- You must consider acoustic wall treatment. Not at first, but have a couple of dollars in your budget. Home made stuff is fine if you are handy. Google acoustic panels - you will get a ton of info. YouTube has some good projects for this. 
- Get a sound meter - you need to set up the system right. Radio Shack is fine. I add at least 3 dB to the rear channels. You are interested in spatial effect, not true accuracy.
- Consider a stage - 2X6 about 4 feet deep (or more) filled with fiberglass. Also, consider double 3/4 ply for the floor. Raising your speakers to ear level or slightly above makes a moderate difference
- I would look at PSB or NHT. Both are great, I prefer PSB. Canadians make great speakers. Don't get any Asian speakers. Get the best CENTER channel that you can afford. It carries a lot of the work load for movies. If you are an audiophile, put your money into the front pair. It really makes a difference.
- Room acoustics are really important - I guess I said that already, but it really is! Again, save some money for LATER improvements because you will be blown away by the original sound. When you become accustomed to the system, you can then discern small (but important) differences in sound interference. 
- Drop ceilings are great and do make a difference over sheet rock. 
- Theater chairs are great - check for sales - I got mine at Macy's (4 connected chairs) for under $2,000. 
- I put a bar behind the chairs to allow for an additional 4+ people. You can use Home Depot kitchen cabinets with a Formica counter top.
- When you can afford it, get a power conditioning box. You want to protect your investments and clean up the utility company's power. I have Monster and have been satisfied. 
- Consider running a dedicated power line to your components. Use shielded cable if you know how to do it. Use hospital type outlets. Run 10 wire if you know what you are doing, run 12 wire with a 20 amp circuit if you are courageous but don't want to work with stiff wire. You can run the projector on the same dedicated line. 
- Remember your cable line. Use the highest quality - it doesn't' cost that much more. Try a "home run" from the incoming cable. Don't split it at from a point beyond the first junction. Use a good ampifier to split the cable. It does not cost very much. 
- Eventually get higher quality interconnects. Get minimum quality to start. Again, you can't tell the difference at first and you will enjoy upgrading.
- Do the cheapest improvements first. Save the expensive improvements AFTER you have characterized the sound. Wait about 6 months. Don't let the store talk you into sophisticated upgrades. You will NOT tell the differences at first. You may tell the improvements later. 

This should keep you busy. The fun of this high fidelity stuff is to improve incrementally so that you enjoy the changes. Again, the stores make their money on all of the peripheral junk that they want to sell you. Don't let them suck you in. Do it later and have fun. 

Again, room acoustics are really important. After you install all of the equipment, enjoy improving your room. That is the first improvement that I would make. Don't do it at first. In fact, don't do any sophisticated improvement at first. 

Put your money into electronics and speaker first. 

Good luck and enjoy.


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
That is a fantastic Post right above that I agree with completely. Especially about the CC.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## dkeller

Yup....I agree. That is incredible feedback and is exactly why I've been surfing this forum for a few weeks now!!!

Some of the excellent points that I'll jump ALL over as I evolve my design:

- heavy padding/carpeting
- REALLY good center channel (JJ told me the same thing!)
- double subs (from research, it looks like they should be placed roughly on opposite walls between the mains and rears)
- acoustic treatments once I've settled in to the true sound of my system/basement
- PSB speakers (I'm going to listen to them this week at Gramophone)
- power conditioning....hmmm, I'm still on the fence on this. I live in northern VA, in a new house, and we have very little power issues. Everything is buried and in fact, we had a major T'storm roll through today, with lightening strikes VERY close by (<1 sec flash to bang) and the house never even flickered. All that being said, I still haven't ruled out some type of conditioning and/or surge protection.
- dedicated power line for the electronics....most definitely in the plan
- cable line....holy cow, with all my focus on speaker wire, HDMI, cat6, etc, I almost forgot about the simple ole cable wire!! We have a central junction box for all the cable lines in the basement, so it should be simple to only have a single junction between the wire coming into the house and the AVR & DVR.

Major kudos for that post!!! As I go through this process, I hope I learn enough to give that kind of constructive feedback!


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## Jungle Jack

Dallas,
You are well on your way to having a fantastic HT. Better yet, you are going to save thousands by purchasing equipment the right way and most importantly getting excellent Components.

I look forward to seeing your Thread come to life as a Home Theater. You are on an excellent path and I really think this investment will provide you with years of enjoyment.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Dallas,
> You are well on your way to having a fantastic HT. Better yet, you are going to save thousands by purchasing equipment the right way and most importantly getting excellent Components.
> 
> I look forward to seeing your Thread come to life as a Home Theater. You are on an excellent path and I really think this investment will provide you with years of enjoyment.
> Cheers,
> JJ


JJ,

Thanks for the encouragement!! I'm definitely better educated than I was a month ago, but I'm still just a wee grasshopper. I'm really looking forward to hearing the PSBs (and other speaker set-ups at Gramophone) this week and then tweak my design/req't/needs. I'll keep you posted with my thoughts and follow-up questions/problems.

D


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Have you already purchased the TX-NR3008? I cannot remember whether or not you have. Stock on A-Stock units is really starting to get low as the prices have gotten so low. Already, the 5008 is next to impossible to find A-Stock. If you have not done so already and this is the AVR you want, I highly recommend picking one up this Weekend when Newegg is selling it for $1149 as opposed to the $1449 price during the Week.

I would actually call Newegg to make sure that their Stock is still good. Otherwise, 1-Call is selling the 3008 for almost the same price as Newegg's Weekend Price everyday.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

I haven't bought it yet, but I'm 75% sure that the 3008 is going to be the one. I sorta wanted to settle on a speaker selection before committing to a specific AVR. I plan to go to 2 different speaker shops later this week, so hopefully I'll have things nailed down and will pull the trigger on the $1149 weekend price.


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## Jungle Jack

dkeller said:


> I haven't bought it yet, but I'm 75% sure that the 3008 is going to be the one. I sorta wanted to settle on a speaker selection before committing to a specific AVR. I plan to go to 2 different speaker shops later this week, so hopefully I'll have things nailed down and will pull the trigger on the $1149 weekend price.


Hello,
I would act soon as the 3008 might become impossible to find from Newegg or 1 Call at these amazing prices. While other Online Merchants may have the 3008. It will not be from an Authorized Dealer which means no 2 Year Warranty and the ability to add 2 additional Years from ShopOnkyo.
JJ


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## dkeller

Is OneCall also an authorized Onkyo dealer?


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Indeed. 1 Call rarely sells things for a discount so the 3008 being On Sale there is a score. They will also provide you with better Post Sales Support than Newegg as they are closer to Crutchfield than a lowest cost E-Tailer.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
It looks like One Call has raised their prices back to MSRP, but it is worth asking. Amazon has it for $1299 with J&R handling the Shipment. I am almost positive that they are a Authorized Dealer.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I called Newegg, which is no easy task as they make it almost impossible to speak to a CSR. They are not expecting anymore 3008's until the end of September at best. I am guessing that will not be getting any more at all. It is unfortunate for those who waited as the $1149 Weekend Price was utterly insane, Amazon only has 6 3008's remaining so if interested, I would jump on that. 
Cheers,
JJ


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
And finally both Amazon and J&R are Authorized Onkyo Online Dealers. So that is the direction to go if One Call will not match the $1149 Price.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

Looks like I'm out of luck on the $1149. OneCall won't match it or even come close. Looks like the Amazon/J&R price tag is the best thing going now.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
With there only being 6 left, I would jump on it. Even at 1299 it still represents an excellent value and is from an Authorized Dealer. When I spoke to Newegg, they only got 9 3008' on July 19th so when they again showed availability, it was on a very limited basis.

You could also gamble and see if Newegg still offers the Yamaha Aventage A3000 with a $500 Dollar Gift Card. If memory serves, it still costs more than the 3008 from Amazon and the Gift Card cannot be used on the initial purchase.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

JJ and HTS gurus,

Finally got up to MD and listened to the PSBs.....awesome sound! They had both the T5 and T6, but didn't have a CC. For my ear, I thought the T5s actually sounded a little better. They also had the S5 surrounds....beautiful speakers! Still some homework to do, but if I had to make a decision tonight, I'd go T5 mains with the C5 in the middle. S5 for my back surrounds and probably the in-wall CW26 for the side surrounds. Still leaning toward dual SVS subs. How's that for a 7.2 set-up to go with a Onkyo 3007? Also, as I was looking at different PSB speakers on their website, I saw the CW260...interesting design!! Anyone have any experience with that in-wall??

Cheers, D


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## Jungle Jack

dkeller said:


> JJ and HTS gurus,
> 
> Finally got up to MD and listened to the PSBs.....awesome sound! They had both the T5 and T6, but didn't have a CC. For my ear, I thought the T5s actually sounded a little better. They also had the S5 surrounds....beautiful speakers! Still some homework to do, but if I had to make a decision tonight, I'd go T5 mains with the C5 in the middle. S5 for my back surrounds and probably the in-wall CW26 for the side surrounds. Still leaning toward dual SVS subs. How's that for a 7.2 set-up to go with a Onkyo 3007? Also, as I was looking at different PSB speakers on their website, I saw the CW260...interesting design!! Anyone have any experience with that in-wall??
> 
> Cheers, D


Hello,
I am so glad you liked the PSB's. I have no experience with the In Walls, but I am sure they are well Designed. The 3007 would be fine. If you could step up to the 3008, XT32/SubEQ HT really are worth the added expense.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I am so glad you liked the PSB's. I have no experience with the In Walls, but I am sure they are well Designed. The 3007 would be fine. If you could step up to the 3008, XT32/SubEQ HT really are worth the added expense.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I meant to say the 3008....sorry. I plan to get one through OneCall or Newegg this weekend.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I would get it from Amazon while you still can. Newegg sounds like they are not getting any more and there are no guarantees that One Call will go down to 1299 again so the Amazon (fulfilled by J&R Audio who are an Authorized Dealer) deal at 1299 is the safest bet. However, last I looked, there were only 6 left. I would do it now.
JJ


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## dkeller

I've got $1299 locked in with OneCall through Friday night, so if I don't find anything cheaper between now and then, I can always pull the trigger on that.


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## Jungle Jack

Sweet. At first, you said One Call was not budging. I am really glad you have a fallback plan. I also discovered a Store that sells Pioneer Elite SC-37 B-Stock for $999 and it is a fantastic AVR. I highly recommend reading Dale Rasco's Review here of the 37.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

Awwwww, man....now you're throwing another AVR into the mix just to confuse me!!


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Just giving you options. I think the combination of XT32 and SubEQ HT makes the 3008 tough to beat. Add in that it also offers 2 additional channels and there are definitely some major advantages to the Onkyo.

That being said, I would be remiss if I did not alert you to other excellent AVR's that can be found for great deals.
Cheers,
JJ


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## sga2

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I am so glad you liked the PSB's. I have no experience with the In Walls, but I am sure they are well Designed. The 3007 would be fine. If you could step up to the 3008, XT32/SubEQ HT really are worth the added expense.
> Cheers,
> JJ


JJ;

I'm very curious how Audyssey's SubEQ HT compares to the SVS AS-EQ1 (Audyssey)? I have dual subs and the 3007 (love it) with MultEQ XT for room correction. I am reasonably happy with the performance but I'm looking to help flatten the bass response with better processing (then, eventually, room treatments). I was about to purchase the AS-EQ1; however, given the low price point for the 3008 I was thinking it may make sense to spend the additional 550 bucks and get the 3008 instead and either sell or demote the 3007 to my living room. I can't find much info on SubEQ HT that allows me to compare it to the processing used by AS-EQ1. Both are by Audyssey and for all I know the AS-EQ uses the same processing that is now available on the 3008 (just with the on screen GUI). 

I am mainly concerned with the low end correction. In that regard, do you think my 3007's MutEQ XT plus the AS-EQ1 would be as good or better than the 3008's MultEQ XT32/SubEQ? I don't care at all about 3D support or - for the sake of my question - how XT32 compares to XT for mid and high frequency room correction. However, for the benefit of others any insight into that would be welcome as well.

Thanks!
sga2


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## Jungle Jack

sga2 said:


> JJ;
> 
> I'm very curious how Audyssey's SubEQ HT compares to the SVS AS-EQ1 (Audyssey)? I have dual subs and the 3007 (love it) with MultEQ XT for room correction. I am reasonably happy with the performance but I'm looking to help flatten the bass response with better processing (then, eventually, room treatments). I was about to purchase the AS-EQ1; however, given the low price point for the 3008 I was thinking it may make sense to spend the additional 550 bucks and get the 3008 instead and either sell or demote the 3007 to my living room. I can't find much info on SubEQ HT that allows me to compare it to the processing used by AS-EQ1. Both are by Audyssey and for all I know the AS-EQ uses the same processing that is now available on the 3008 (just with the on screen GUI).
> 
> I am mainly concerned with the low end correction. In that regard, do you think my 3007's MutEQ XT plus the AS-EQ1 would be as good or better than the 3008's MultEQ XT32/SubEQ? I don't care at all about 3D support or - for the sake of my question - how XT32 compares to XT for mid and high frequency room correction. However, for the benefit of others any insight into that would be welcome as well.
> 
> Thanks!
> sga2


Hello,
From everything I have read, SubEQ HT makes the 800 Dollar AS-EQ1 redundant. It really is fantastic and I was truly stunned at the difference it made with my 2 Subwoofers as they are different Models but the same Design. While my 3007 did well, the SubEQ and XT32 exceeded my expectations.
Cheers,
JJ


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## sga2

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> From everything I have read, SubEQ HT makes the 800 Dollar AS-EQ1 redundant. It really is fantastic and I was truly stunned at the difference it made with my 2 Subwoofers as they are different Models but the same Design. While my 3007 did well, the SubEQ and XT32 exceeded my expectations.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Thanks for the input. And it's available on accessories4less.com (factory reconditioned) for $1099.

If only the 3008 had the nifty GUI of the AS-EQ1...

Regards,
sga2


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Indeed. It is a shame that Newegg appears completely Sold Out of the 3008 as they were selling it Brand New for only $50 Dollars more on the Weekends. Amazon is selling it for $1299 as well.

AC4L is a great place to purchase an AVR and the folks there could not be nicer. It is nice to get an A-Stock when the price difference is $50 Dollars. 200 Dollars is another story though.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Indeed. It is a shame that Newegg appears completely Sold Out of the 3008 as they were selling it Brand New for only $50 Dollars more on the Weekends. Amazon is selling it for $1299 as well.
> 
> AC4L is a great place to purchase an AVR and the folks there could not be nicer. It is nice to get an A-Stock when the price difference is $50 Dollars. 200 Dollars is another story though.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I've never bought a factory refurb B-stock....anything to be concerned about with this path? Looks like A4L has a 5 year warranty add-on for $149.


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## sga2

dkeller said:


> I've never bought a factory refurb B-stock....anything to be concerned about with this path? Looks like A4L has a 5 year warranty add-on for $149.


I've only bought brand new (my 3007) from them and could not be happier with the transaction. I don't have any personal experience with B-stock from them but they are an authorized Onkyo dealer, provide a 1-year warranty on the B-stock items (and offer supplemental warranty as you're found), and I've heard overwhelmingly positive feedback from others on this forum who have ordered B-stock Onkyo AVR's from them. I have my finger on the trigger to get the refurb 3008 and am about to pull...

Regards,
sga2


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Factory Refurbs can be sourced from so many places that it is not even funny. While some indeed were Shipped DOA, some a Returns where the Dealer has the clout to simply send back Returns to Onkyo and all that is done is placing a New Remote, and Owners Manual, some were out in the field for a while and failed, some were pulled from the Manufacturing process, Reviewer Units, etc... I also think some are A-Stocks that are last years AVR and or were Overstocks and the Companies save by halving the Manufacturing Warranty to 1 Year. Almost every PR-SC885 was indeed an A-Stock for instance that was purchased from ShopOnkyo and I think AC4L

Regardless of the reason, I really do not think they are more prone to failure than A-Stocks. If anything, they have been more thoroughly inspected. I do think it is essential to have at least a 1 Year Warranty which AC4L offers on Marantz and Onkyo and Dakmart offers on Denon's. I also recommend spending extra and getting the Extended Warranty from the Manufacturer whenever possible. ShopOnkyo for instance offer 2 additional years for under 100 Dollars.

What I like about going with say ShopOnkyo is that you will never have to worry about how the Repair will be handled or if they decide a Replacement is in order if you are going to end up with a lessor Model due to depreciation and the like. Some 3rd Party Warranties are better than others and some really are excellent.
However, I do feel safer going with the Manufacturer or somewhere like Best Buy.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> It looks like One Call has raised their prices back to MSRP, but it is worth asking. Amazon has it for $1299 with J&R handling the Shipment. I am almost positive that they are a Authorized Dealer.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I just pulled the trigger on the 3008 from OneCall. $1299 final price. They're listing it for MSRP, but you can shoot them the $1299 price and they'll accept it. Plenty of extended warranty offers as well....I got the 4 yr for $90 more. Should have it in about a week. Now it's on to ordering the projector, speakers, and subs.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
D, that is awesome news and I really think you are going to love the 3008. Getting an A-Stock AVR that is still current for almost 50% off from an Authorized Dealer is a coup.

I would do a good amount of research about the 3rd Party Warranty One Call offers as some can really let you down when you need them the most. While shorter, I still think the 2 additional years offered by Onkyp directly is the safest bet. While it is only 4 years total, the Onkyo Extended Warranty is treated identically as the original Warranty. 

Case in point, when my B-Stock 3007 developed issues in May, at the end of a long and twisted road I ended up with an A-Stock TX-NR3008. In truth, I was initially going to receive a B-Stock 3008, but there were none available when it was decided that my AVR needed to be replaced and rather than make me wait longer I got an A-Stock 3008. A 3rd Party Warranty would never do anything like that, Best case, they would cut you a Check for the purchase price in the rare event something really bad happens. And even then, there is a chance they give you a depreciated amount should it happen say with 1 Month remaining on your Warranty.
And finally, make sure that the Warranty is for 4 Years past the end of the Manufacturers Warranty for a total of 6 or if it is a total of 4 Years. As Extended Warranties are huge profit makers for Retailers, just make sure that it is exactly what you and I hopefully expect it to be.

Now, Download the Manual (if you haven't already) and acclimate yourself with the AVR. It really is awesome and MultEQ 32/Sub EQ HT are fantastic.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

JJ and others,

Just did a price check on the SVS subs that I'm leaning toward (dual SB-12NSDs). They've dropped the price down to $649 each (they were $749 last week) and now have free shipping....so I'm looking at an outlay of only $1300 now versus about $1600 a week ago!! They're currently showing out of stock but that shouldn't stay that way for long.

D


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I would call SVS as sometimes the delays for being back in stock can be long. No doubt about the value as it will save you more than 300 Dollars when factoring in Shipping from last week.

You might also want to call HSU, Epik, eD, etc and tell them you are considering that Model and see what kind of deal they might offer you. It is quite common as all these Brands are often Cross Shopped.
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV

If you've got the room, you might find the ported svs subs to provide better extension and room flexible tuning modes than the SB-12, which is optimized for a smaller, sealed room with lots of gain.

I really don't feel sealed subs are always an efficient solution in larger rooms until you're dealing with large, high excursion 15 and 18 inch drivers fed thousands of watts. At your price point I would personally be leaning towards vented subs.


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## Jungle Jack

GranteedEV said:


> If you've got the room, you might find the ported svs subs to provide better extension and room flexible tuning modes than the SB-12, which is optimized for a smaller, sealed room with lots of gain.
> 
> I really don't feel sealed subs are always an efficient solution in larger rooms until you're dealing with large, high excursion 15 and 18 inch drivers fed thousands of watts. At your price point I would personally be leaning towards vented subs.


Hello,
That too was my initial leaning as well in that I thought that the HSU VTF-2 MKIII or a deal on the VTF-3 MK III would be a good call. Even better with the Plugs, you can get a semblance of a Ported Enclosure while still having the flexibility of really high SPL's when removing all the Plugs.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dkeller

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> That too was my initial leaning as well in that I thought that the HSU VTF-2 MKIII or a deal on the VTF-3 MK III would be a good call. Even better with the Plugs, you can get a semblance of a Ported Enclosure while still having the flexibility of really high SPL's when removing all the Plugs.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I guess it really comes down to "how much bass is enough", huh? Yes, it is a large room overall, but the movie seating area portion isn't that huge (18x20 or so). While I would love to have the HSUs and their more robust "push", I'm having to find a middle ground with the wifey req't to not have to HUGE subs sitting in the room. The SVSs have a considerably smaller footprint and should still push plenty of bass for me, right?


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## dkeller

BTW....got speaker quotes from both DMC and Saturday Audio this week. Saturday is much less (~$40-50 cheaper per speaker). They do charge shipping, but I'll still save about $400 with them. Latest configuration that I have on paper is PSB Image: T6 mains, C5 CC, CW-26 sides and rears (although I might go 160R for rears), and CW-160Rs for the bar. I really like the CW-260s also, but they are twice as much as the CW-26s, and considering they're only side/rear surrounds, it just isn't worth it $$ wise.


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## GranteedEV

dkeller said:


> I guess it really comes down to "how much bass is enough", huh?


Well, it's moreso a matter of "do you want the lower octave"?



> Yes, it is a large room overall, but the movie seating area portion isn't that huge (18x20 or so).


as long as it leaks bass energy into other areas, you have to treat the whole room as just that - very large. A large room will not give you much if any boost of the bottom end.



> While I would love to have the HSUs and their more robust "push", I'm having to find a middle ground with the wifey req't to not have to HUGE subs sitting in the room. The SVSs have a considerably smaller footprint and should still push plenty of bass for me, right?


Sealed subs do indeed have a smaller footprint. I guess it depends what kind of bass you want. Smaller sealed subs will do fine with lower midbass (IE 40 to 80+hz) but the bottom octave (20hz to 40hz) will probably find you limited, either by your amplifier or your driver excursion. Smaller rooms trap the bottom octave and lift the frequency response closer to flat for a sub like this. 

The dimensions of the SB-12 NSD are roughly 14 x 14 x 14 - definitley tough for a vented sub to match. At low levels it should probably have extension to ~28hz in your room although I expect its DSP to change the frequency response at high drive levels. A vented sub like the Rythmik FV12 might extend to around 20hz on other hand.


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## dkeller

I'm a novice at this, but I totally get what you're saying about losing the lower freqs with the sealed sub (SVS). I really appreciate the education! Would it help the lower end if the subs were moved toward the corners of the room? Based on what I've read thus far, my plan is to put them on opposite walls facing each other, essentially on the sidewalls midway between the front wall (where the screen, mains, and center channel are) and the side surrounds. I haven't wired anything yet (only the framing is complete), so I can pretty much put them anywhere at this point.


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## GranteedEV

dkeller said:


> I'm a novice at this, but I totally get what you're saying about losing the lower freqs with the sealed sub (SVS). I really appreciate the education! Would it help the lower end if the subs were moved toward the corners of the room?


Corner placement is playing with fire. It can sometimes boost output at some frequencies, but it might also seriously hurt your frequency response smoothness. I've never had good audible or measurable results from corner placement, at least not without seriously EQing down peaks (which tends to only work for one seat) and conversely, you can't EQ up dips. Now if you've got four subs to fill in four corners, you might get enough spatial averaging that corner placement works. I personally prefer to determine placement by randomly trying as many locations as possible until I get a good measurement with mostly narrow dips.


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## Almadacr

GranteedEV said:


> Corner placement is playing with fire. It can sometimes boost output at some frequencies, but it might also seriously hurt your frequency response smoothness. I've never had good audible or measurable results from corner placement, at least not without seriously EQing down peaks (which tends to only work for one seat) and conversely, you can't EQ up dips. Now if you've got four subs to fill in four corners, you might get enough spatial averaging that corner placement works. I personally prefer to determine placement by randomly trying as many locations as possible until I get a good measurement with mostly narrow dips.


You juat open is Pandora box , next he will be getting bass traps


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## GranteedEV

Almadacr said:


> You juat open is Pandora box , next he will be getting bass traps


:rofl2:

He better get enough of 12" thick rigid fiberglass to cover corners at least :spend:


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