# Subwoofer decision long post



## sc351cobra (Jun 29, 2012)

Hi all as I said in my intoduction I am a old audiophile 65 years who is building a HT system.
I was using a pair of Reference 3A with Superema Base as the fronts Paragon center and JMLab
bookself rear. That worked well for a few years with a Denon receiver. For music I would unhook
the Denon and use my AR SP10 pre and D115 amp with analogue records. Never like the sound of CD.
When I realized I was no longer listening I past the equipment on and only listened to powered PC speakers
or the speakers in the TV.
I have decide that I would like a reasonable HT system. To this end a got a Emotvia UMP-1 processor and 
UPA-500 amp. I ordered Magnapan MMGW for the fronts to go with the wall mounted 55" Panasonic Plasma.
My plan was to use the JMLabs and Paragon and a old Velodyne ULD 15.
I got a 3.1 system working MMGW's Paragon ULD-15. No setup on the woofer just set it down and listen.
Wife and I sat down and stared watching Two Towers BR. The Velodyne may have been too loud but we were stunned. The movie was so much better with powerful base. 
We only got to enjoy this for a little while before the Velodyne started oscillating hated to turn it off. 
So now I am looking to replace the Vlodyne. After much reading but little understanding I am looking at the following Rythmik's 15" subs.
D15ES taller then I would like but a lot like the ULD15. Can you get it with 600watt amp?
E15 F15HP >38 cubic inches change the sound?
FV15HP bigger harder for me to move
Or a pair of 12 inch SVS or Rythmiks would be positioned under the MMGW's
Room is around 3500 cubic feet listening area 1500 opening to dinning room.
I would like to be able to reproduce the dragons wings with authority. 
Had this with ULD15.
Thanks for reading
Lonnie


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

First who says 65 is old?? I am 62.

Hsu ULS-15s would be a good match for your Maggies, I think. Sealed sub, great low freq extension and especially, nice and fast. Many others to look at as well.


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## sc351cobra (Jun 29, 2012)

Retirement is great miss the people thought. Leaning toward a servo woofer.
Lonnie


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

I have a Velodyne FSR-18 in addition to 4 of the Hsu ULS-15s in my HT (Hey, us old folks can't hear too good - need more subs). The Velo is nice and was my first real sub. But its output was not that great. Up to a point, OK. Then the servo kicked in and it would go no louder, by design of course.


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

hjones4841 said:


> First who says 65 is old?? I am 62.
> 
> Hsu ULS-15s would be a good match for your Maggies, I think. Sealed sub, great low freq extension and especially, nice and fast. Many others to look at as well.


+1 Although a well designed ported sub can sound great (I own a ported SVS), IMHO a sealed sub will be a better match. I use a sealed sub for stereo (2.1) and ported (with the sealed sub) subs for HT.


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Welcome to the Forum. Two subs can be easier to balance in most rooms. My SVS SB-13's are co-located in my front corner, and are very satisifying! I am much younger, as i turn 65 in Oct. Have fun. Dennis


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## sc351cobra (Jun 29, 2012)

A pair of sealed 12" from SVS are high on my list. I tend to think they would sound better in the 80-100 
range then a 15".The MMGW's are only good to 100 hz. On the other hand the 15" driver will move more air
in the 20-40 hz. I did get to watch about 1/2 of Lord of the Rings 2 Towers before my old Veladyne gave up the ghost. The result of taking it out of the system was that I have only watch 3D movies for the novelty (first 3D).
I do not want to watch movies without the great sound. A sub is a must even the wife wants me to make up my mind. The D15SE is would be the one if I had to buy right now. I feel the bigger driver would give better low bass.
The 12" would be much easier to move around and a pair would about the same cost as 1 D15ES.
Trying to make up my mind.
Lonnie


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

sc351cobra said:


> A pair of sealed 12" from SVS are high on my list. I tend to think they would sound better in the 80-100
> range then a 15".The MMGW's are only good to 100 hz. On the other hand the 15" driver will move more air
> in the 20-40 hz.


Don't let driver size be the deciding factor. I have progressed though the years, going from 10", 12", 15" and now dual 18" subs which are crossed over to the mains at 90 Hz.

I once thought that larger subs are "slower", but that is a myth. In fact, a larger driver doesn't have to move very far, therefore it returns to rest and is ready for the next hit sooner than a smaller driver that needs more excursion to move the same amount of air.

"Slowness" or "boominess" are most often attributed to a sub's location in the room relative to the main speakers and the listening position. Proper location and fine tuning with signal processing such as crossover settings, speaker distance, and EQ help dial in the sound.


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## popalock (May 19, 2012)

sc351cobra said:


> The 12" would be much easier to move around and a pair would about the same cost as 1 D15ES.
> Lonnie


Lonnie, understand sub placement is very important, but once you have found that sweet spot you shouldn't have to do anymore moving.

Is there a reason you keep mentioning that that "X" will be easier to move? 

I ask because I want you to focus on the satisfaction of curing your LF itch, not to focus on having to lug a piece of equipment around.


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

tesseract said:


> Don't let driver size be the deciding factor. I have progressed though the years, going from 10", 12", 15" and now dual 18" subs which are crossed over to the mains at 90 Hz.
> 
> I once thought that larger subs are "slower", but that is a myth. In fact, a larger driver doesn't have to move very far, therefore it returns to rest and is ready for the next hit sooner than a smaller driver that needs more excursion to move the same amount of air.
> 
> "Slowness" or "boominess" are most often attributed to a sub's location in the room relative to the main speakers and the listening position. Proper location and fine tuning with signal processing such as crossover settings, speaker distance, and EQ help dial in the sound.


+1 I've found that the sub's crossover setting is VERY important. Many people use 80Hz without a problem, but I use <50Hz when I can; it really seems to get rid of the "bloated boom." This _will_ vary from room-to-room and with the associated equipment, of course.


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## sc351cobra (Jun 29, 2012)

popalock said:


> Lonnie, understand sub placement is very important, but once you have found that sweet spot you shouldn't have to do anymore moving.
> 
> Is there a reason you keep mentioning that that "X" will be easier to move?
> 
> I ask because I want you to focus on the satisfaction of curing your LF itch, not to focus on having to lug a piece of equipment around.


popalock I mentioned that because I can not move a 90lb speaker without help. I have decided that a pair 12"
sealed subs is out. I will start out with 1 15".


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## sc351cobra (Jun 29, 2012)

wgmontgomery said:


> +1 I've found that the sub's crossover setting is VERY important. Many people use 80Hz without a problem, but I use <50Hz when I can; it really seems to get rid of the "bloated boom." This _will_ vary from room-to-room and with the associated equipment, of course.


wgmontgomery I have not found this to be a problem in the past. Had Infinity Servostatics with a 18" servo controlled crossed over at 100Hz it never seemed bloated had the system in a couple of different rooms.
I did have a system in this room with 8' ribbons 300Hz up dual 8" 80-300Hz dual 15" 80Hz down with no bloat or boom but the room was only 12' wide for the first 13' the opened up 18' wide by 12'. 
I am a little worded about that with the MMGW's they only go down to 100Hz and I am hoping that the Rythmik D15 will work that high. The wife and I have talked that over if it's 2 much to ask of the D15 Magnepan has the DWM sub. A pair of them working down to 40Hz then the D15 should fixes that.
Right now I'm hoping that the D15 is all I need for movies. 
Lonnie


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## popalock (May 19, 2012)

sc351cobra said:


> popalock I mentioned that because I can not move a 90lb speaker without help. I have decided that a pair 12"
> sealed subs is out. I will start out with 1 15".


Lonnie, if you get what I want you to get... I will travel to come help you move them around. I understand it's rough to move heavy kit...

I mean, there are furniture movers like this that I use to move everything in my house, but I understand your concerns.... I guess.


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## sc351cobra (Jun 29, 2012)

popalock said:


> Lonnie, if you get what I want you to get... I will travel to come help you move them around. I understand it's rough to move heavy kit...
> 
> I mean, there are furniture movers like this that I use to move everything in my house, but I understand your concerns.... I guess.


popalock I have to ask what are you hopiing I will buy? Funny you should mention the murniture movers the wife and I were talking about getting some.
Lonnie


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

You might want to take a look at that Velo. If it is oscillating you might just have a separated surround on the driver. That is not so hard to fix. It still won't have the output of other subs, but may be adequate for your needs.


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## popalock (May 19, 2012)

sc351cobra said:


> popalock I have to ask what are you hopiing I will buy? Funny you should mention the murniture movers the wife and I were talking about getting some.
> Lonnie


Lonnie, my name is Austin. Pleasure to meet you. 

Can I ask a personal question? Are you a grandfather? 

Nothing but humble intentions asking that...


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## sc351cobra (Jun 29, 2012)

popalock said:


> Lonnie, my name is Austin. Pleasure to meet you.
> 
> Can I ask a personal question? Are you a grandfather?
> 
> Nothing but humble intentions asking that...


Austin no problem but I'm sorry to say no grand children
Lonnie


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## popalock (May 19, 2012)

sc351cobra said:


> popalock I have to ask what are you hopiing I will buy? Funny you should mention the murniture movers the wife and I were talking about getting some.
> Lonnie


I want you to spend $1,900 and get an LMS Ultra, LG FP14000 Clone amp and DIYSoundgroup 4.5 cubic foot sub box (some assembly required).

Total overkill, but extremely satisfying none the less. It's not a terribly big box, but with the sub in the box it will weigh 150lbs, so those furniture movers would be essential. 

That's the top dog... It might not be something you are willing to entertain, but you would totally be the coolest Dad/Grandpa on the block!


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## sc351cobra (Jun 29, 2012)

popalock said:


> I want you to spend $1,900 and get an LMS Ultra, LG FP14000 Clone amp and DIYSoundgroup 4.5 cubic foot sub box (some assembly required).
> 
> Total overkill, but extremely satisfying none the less. It's not a terribly big box, but with the sub in the box it will weigh 150lbs, so those furniture movers would be essential.
> 
> That's the top dog... It might not be something you are willing to entertain, but you would totally be the coolest Dad/Grandpa on the block!


popalock strange you mentioned that I already have a 4.5 cabinet for a 18" driver. It had a Infinity servo driver in it. Couldn't find the amp driver on parts express


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## popalock (May 19, 2012)

sc351cobra said:


> popalock strange you mentioned that I already have a 4.5 cabinet for a 18" driver. It had a Infinity servo driver in it. Couldn't find the amp driver on parts express


Just drop that puppy in your current box, get the amp and you're golden!


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## sc351cobra (Jun 29, 2012)

popalock said:


> Just drop that puppy in your current box, get the amp and you're golden!


Can not find the amp


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## popalock (May 19, 2012)

sc351cobra said:
 

> Can not find the amp


The Clone is sold by Sanway and ships direct from China.

It can be had in both the 110v or 220v flavor. If you want more info let me know and I will PM you all of the details. 

If you want to research the amp, I suggest you go to the Lab Gruppen website and download the spec sheet for the original FP14000 amp. There are a few differences between the original and the Clone, but for the Clone being roughly 1/8th of the price, it is a trade off most are willing to make... =)


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## sc351cobra (Jun 29, 2012)

Made my choice ordered the Velodyne EQ-Max15. Took me over 2 weeks to decide 2 SVS 1 Rythmik D-15.
In the end I went right back to what I was going to buy before staring research. I was very happy with the ULD-15 and it was made before sub audible was even being talked about. 
Thanks


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