# Thinking about EQ for my sub... but I am totally lost



## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Hey All...

I just spent the last hour + reading about the Behringer Feedback Destroyer DSP-1124P.

My head is spinning just a bit (well, maybe a lot).

Basically, my situation is this: I have a 7.1 set-up. (Polk rtia3 fronts, Polk csia6 center, Polk FXia4 surrounds, Polk RTi4 Rears) and an Energy s10.3 sub. The main speakers in the set-up are all new. Set-up was taken care of by my Elite's MCACC. LFE is managed by the AVR with a x-over set at 80Hz

I am having a really hard time getting my sub to blend. I've done the sub crawl... just about everything I can think of... and I am getting a really boomy-disjointed sound. The sub sound has no crispness... it's very loose and distracting and just plain boomy!

Someone suggested I look into EQ for my sub... explaining that EQ will allow me to flatten the response and get rid of that boomy-ness in our listening position.

It looks like the BFD is a popular choice. What I can't figure out is:

What equipment/software do I need to make this all work???

I do not own a PC... I have a MacBook Pro, though. Is this a problem? Does a BFD need to be hooked-up to a PC in order to input settings?

Could someone with some knowledge give me a quick-run down of all the BASIC equipment/software I will need to use a BFD???:innocent:

It would be greatly appreciated.... I'd like to be able to do this right without spending a fortune (or buying a new sub)... and, for a relative novice in HT... this stuff can be REALLY confusing.

Thanks,
27dnast


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

I used to have a Pioneer Elite SC-05 and the problem that many face with the MCACC is that it doesn't EQ below 40Hz which leaves a large amount of "boominess" in the sub 40 Hz range. I implemented the DSP-1124 into my setup and it worked fairly easy. You DO NOT have to upload the settings via the midi connection, each frequency can be modified manual on the Behringer itself. You would only need to have a capable sound card and sound meter/mic to get acurate results from REW and then find the spikes and lulls and adjust accordingly on the Behringer. 

I know my response isn't very detailed, but it can be done quite easily and effectively without using the midi connection between the PC/MAC and the Behringer. The setup and process is documented very well in our REW section of the forum and there are plenty of us that would be more than happy to help walk you through it!

Thanks,
Dale


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

When you say capable sound card... does my MacBook Pro count????

Can I run a line from a Radio Shack SPL to my MacBook Pro and have the REW software do it's thing?


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

27dnast said:


> When you say capable sound card... does my MacBook Pro count????
> 
> Can I run a line from a Radio Shack SPL to my MacBook Pro and have the REW software do it's thing?


Unfortunately internal sound cards do not work very well due to some limited functionality. There is some great information in the REW forum http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/ . There are plenty of threads about running REW on the MAC. The Radio Shack SPL works fine and there are calibration files already in the REW forum for that as well. The biggest problem with internal soundcards is the lack of a proper "line-in".


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Okay... I'll read-up on the forum...

Just to check, though, before I start more reading:

Am I heading down the right road? Am I correct in thinking that the boomy-ness problem that I am trying to correct can be controlled by EQ-ing?


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

The boominess is probably a combination of sub placement, EQ and room acoustics. IMO, the EQ is going to give you greatest results and then you can add acoustic treatments if necessary. You are definitely headed down the right road. I found a sound card that should work for you as well, but I would do some checking in the REW forum for others that have success with it or with a different unit.

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-UCA202-Audio-Interface/dp/B000KW2YEI/ref=dp_cp_ob_e_title_3


Let me know if you have any other questions!


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Thanks... appreciate it.

One other question.... some of the BFD units can be had for less than $50 used. Do you see any problem with getting a unit that is used but in good condition (Do I need a manual??? Looks like the documentation on the forum is really substantial).


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## Svendsen (Feb 4, 2011)

27dnast said:


> When you say capable sound card... does my MacBook Pro count????
> 
> Can I run a line from a Radio Shack SPL to my MacBook Pro and have the REW software do it's thing?


Probably not the best way to do it - but it's what I do - and it works ok. Btw I have the sc-07 and I also miss sub eq - and I also think the pioneer elites offer way to few possibilities for x-overs - I would take a minidsp over the BFD any day - much easier to tweak - and it connects to a mac or pc through usb.

Best regards


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

27dnast said:


> Thanks... appreciate it.
> 
> One other question.... some of the BFD units can be had for less than $50 used. Do you see any problem with getting a unit that is used but in good condition (Do I need a manual??? Looks like the documentation on the forum is really substantial).


I don't see any issue with getting a used unit if you can find one. You shouldn't need the documentation, as you said, it is a very documented device on the forum and if all else fails I will scan and email you a copy of mine. :T


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

ok.

In terms of taking the frequency measurements manually vs using the software... for my application, would it be cheaper/quicker to do it manually?

I see there is a downloadable spreadsheet for manual.

If I go with the software... do I understand that I can simply plug in a midi cable from the hdmi sound card (plug that into the EQ) and have it transmit the calibration information??


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

27dnast said:


> ok.
> 
> In terms of taking the frequency measurements manually vs using the software... for my application, would it be cheaper/quicker to do it manually? I see there is a downloadable spreadsheet for manual.


It would be cheaper, but it would definitely take a lot longer and is a much more arduous task.




27dnast said:


> If I go with the software... do I understand that I can simply plug in a midi cable from the hdmi sound card (plug that into the EQ) and have it transmit the calibration information??


You would have to have a midi device that directly interfaces between the Mac and the DSP1124, the soundcard would not do it.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

Dude it took me a week to get REW and the BFD working correctly but now it sounds awesome. Put in the effort and you will be happy.


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## Mpray1983 (Jun 22, 2011)

I think your "boominess" problem is because you have a little tiny sub in probably a huge room. How many cf is your room? Equalization won't fix lack of output and power. Equalization works better when you are taming highs rather than boosting lows.


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## Theresa (Aug 23, 2010)

I was thinking the same thing.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Mpray1983 said:


> I think your "boominess" problem is because you have a little tiny sub in probably a huge room. How many cf is your room? Equalization won't fix lack of output and power. Equalization works better when you are taming highs rather than boosting lows.


The room is not that big... 1490 cubic feet... all enclosed.


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

MCACC does not EQ below 40 Hz so there is a greater possibility that the boominess is a result of untamed lows. This does not mean that you will not want to eventually put in dual subs, but for the room you have, your sub is plenty for the bottom end.

There is also a very good thread on MCACC HERE if you are interested in fine tuning it a bit. It has some very detailed steps to further cut down on reverb, etc. I found it extremely valuable when I had my SC-05.


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Also, are you setting your speakers to "small" and the crossover to 80hz within MCACC?


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Dale Rasco said:


> Also, are you setting your speakers to "small" and the crossover to 80hz within MCACC?


Yes, speakers are set to small and x-over is set to 80hz

I have some extra psw-10's. Someone recommended that I wire them speaker level to the front L and R speakers... X-ing over at about 60 or 70 hz and setti g those two speakers to large (setting each woofer next to the L and R stands. Then, running my s10.3 off the LFE managed by the AVR x-over at 80hz.

Thought that might help even things out a bit.

Oddly, if I run both psw-10s off of the LFE, all speAkers set to small and x-over set to 80, with the psw10's positioned about 2 feet from the front wall, firing across the room at eachother... The bass is not boomy and sounds half decent. ???????


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

That makes sense because the source is no longer coming from a single location. If anything, split the subs off of the LFE using a splitter rather than connecting them to the fronts. I would guess that the lack of boominess is a canceling out of some sort. It would really tell a lot more to what is going on if you could get some readings. The Energy sub has 200 watts of continuous power and 800 for peak which is plenty of power for your room. Is the room square/rectangle or does it have any mis-shaped walls?


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

I may have posted my last response too soon without asking an important question. When you connect the PSW-10's, are you disconnecting the Energy?


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

I tried running one psw with the energy.... Didn't seem to help. They aren't very strong subs... Only go to 35 hz. I wonder what would happen if I stacked the PSWs on one side and put the energy on the opposite side... Wonder if the same kind of effect would happen (meaning relatively good bass).

Is it possible to use one EQ for multiple subs???

As for the room. It is rectangular. But it isn't a perfect rectangle. The front right has a wall area that sticks out about 1 1/2 feet and so does the back left part of the room (duct work).... There is also some duct work that juts out across the front of the room (on the ceiling) from the front right jut-out and stretches down the ceiling of the left wall to the back left part of the room.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

I think I found a huge error in my set-up. I read the MCACC thread you referenced... 

Since my speakers are new (and replacing old ones), I hadn't run MCACC in years. After setting up the speakers, I ran Auto MCACC... when it was complete it set up speakers to large (although I do believe the X-over was set at 80 Hz... but I ***think*** that any speaker set to large bypasses the x-over)

I simply went in to the manual speaker set-up and changed the speakers to small and went on with my business.

After reading the MCACC thread, I began to realize that this is/was a huge error and that I didn't run MCACC properly.

I wonder if this error is causing the sub to perform so poorly? Only because the AVR thinks it's pumping a large portion of the LFE to my mains?????

Hmmm....

Probably not the end all be all to all my problems, but this may account for why my sub is blending so poorly with the mains AND my bass is all loose and muddy.

Do the MCACC results (and internal tweaks) have the power to make a set-up sound really ??


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm sorry, but what model is your ELite? Sorry but I was on the road all day driving from Orlando to Houston...


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

Earlier in this thread there was a question about buying a used BFD for ~$50. I bought my new DSP1124P from B&H Photo for $99. That included free shipping. For that kind of money buying new and getting what goes with it makes sense.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Set all of your speakers manually to small and SW to yes.
In the Auto MCAAC menu select 'Keep Speaker Setting' and run the calibration.
The MCAAC saves three different types of calibration (usually in memory 1,2,3 as the default locations).
Each cal is specifically weighted for different purposes and each one sounds different, try listening to all three to see which you like best.
If you are still unhappy, I would recommend using the SPL meter and manually graphing the response before spending money on any EQ device.
You may or may not have significant problems.
A few others have suggested it may just be that your sub is not very capable, I would not discount that possibility.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Dale Rasco said:


> I'm sorry, but what model is your ELite? Sorry but I was on the road all day driving from Orlando to Houston...


It's an elite vsx23-thx


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Yes it can have a substantial impact on the results. I recommend running the whole MCACC process over from scratch, you may even want to go as far as to do a factory reset on the unit. Once the initial setup is complete, follow the instructions from the MCACC process I linked earlier step-by-step. After that is done, use your SPL to confirm that all of your levels measure 75db for each channel. 

If after that you still hear a problem, I suggest getting the measurements recorded for the sub and post them here.

I need to correct my earlier statement, I did not mean to suggest that it isn't the sub that's an issue, I just feel that it is way too early to throw out: "you need a new sub".


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

I factory reset the AVR and ran it from scratch... including a memory preset dedicated to multiple seating positions.

It has gotten a LOT of the bominess under control. Sounds way better. I see there are some ways for me to further tweak the sound... I know I'm throwing a lot out there, so I apologize, but, in the manual it talks about:

1)Acoustical Calibration EQ Professional (for further management of boominess)
2) X-Curve (which adjusts the tonal balance of movie sound tracks based on room size)

Have you ever dabbled with these????

Also, MCACC doesn't adjust the dB's of speakers to 75dBs... it is more or less 80 dBs (maybe a tad higher). I know that 75dBs technically allows you to know that when your volume dial hits zero you are at reference level (correct). Can I just leave the channel levels at the MCACC calculated levels and calibrate my sub to that level using the corrections? If the answer is no... if I go into the manual set-up and recalibrate all of my channel levels to 75 dBs, does that mean that all of the other MCACC calibrations are off (and that I have to re-run everything?)???

I just ordered a new SPL and a BFD unit - of course --- so they are on their way. Knowing my luck, they won't have as much impact as me correcting my MCACC mistake. But, I'm hopeful that it will further get the sub under control. I'm encouraged by the fact that I've read a lot of people *feel* that adding a BFD and properly EQ-ing their sub made a world of difference. Do you think I jumped the gun?

I know everyone is all excited about bigger and better - and of course I would go drop 1K on a sub if I had more $$$ to put into this hobby this year... but it's just not in my budget and considering I just bought 7 new speakers, I think it's going to have to wait. I don't think this energy sub is a slouch - there are about 4 or 5 professional reviews on the net that give it a thumbs up (doesn't tout it as a world beater... but all of them say it gives a quality, tight, sound for $500-$600 bucks, which is what it was going for 5 years ago). It *** hopefully*** can be further tamed.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I would not bother to reset the SPL manually to 75dB for each channel.

The output level of sources (X-Box, PS3, Blu-Ray players, DVD players, TV, Sat rcvr....) are not standardized and there is no standard for volume levels on media either so achieving 'reference level' at 0 on the volume control is a moving target to begin with.
If your intention is to achieve 'reference level' @ 0 on the Blu-Ray input you will need to use the BR as the source of the test noise.
This assumes the volume level of the test tone disc will be representative of the volume level a movie is recorded at.

If you run the test noise in the AVR for channel levels and find that the auto-cal did not correctly level match a channel you might want to correct that.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Have you tried putting the AVR in Direct or Pure Direct mode and seeing what it sounds like ?
Direct turns off some of the processing (manual is less than clear on the exact details).
Pure Direct defeats all the processing except channel level matching, speaker setting, and crossover (again the manual is not explicit).
This is just an experiment, I would like to read your description of the differences in sound when switching between Auto Surround, (skip the ALC), Direct, and Pure Direct modes.
Also if you are willing to spend the time on it, I would like for you to switch between the MCAAC memories and deacribe the differences you hear.
The manual will tell you how the EQ is weighted for each memory.
I prefer Auto-Surround, memory three in my system.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

chashint said:


> I would not bother to reset the SPL manually to 75dB for each channel.
> 
> The output level of sources (X-Box, PS3, Blu-Ray players, DVD players, TV, Sat rcvr....) are not standardized and there is no standard for volume levels on media either so achieving 'reference level' at 0 on the volume control is a moving target to begin with.
> If your intention is to achieve 'reference level' @ 0 on the Blu-Ray input you will need to use the BR as the source of the test noise.
> ...


So, I should pick one channel (with the AVR playing pink noise) and then level all of the other channels with that, yes?

For example, say MCACC set my front left to 80.5 dBs... I should run the pink noise test tones through the other 7 speakers and make sure they are all playing the pink noise at 80.5? Then check to be sure the sub is also playing at that level? (although, if I am correct, I need to use the cal. tables when considering the sub SPL readings... correct? So the actual sub SPL reading will be less than 80.5).


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

After running the MCAAC my experience is... all of the channel levels are set very close to each other.
When you run the AVR pink noise to check the speaker levels check all of them before making any adjustments and only adjust if one of the channels is out of whack.
If none of the channels match each other I think something went wrong in the cal.
It is important that the SPL meter be in the same location as the calibration mic was in when MCAAC was run.
If you did a multi point calibration I do nor know if the channel level is optomized for the main listening position or not.
Since the sub level is also set using noise you do not need to apply any offset to the SPL meter reading.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Don't be afraid of playing with the different settings.
That is how you learn what the AVR can do.
I refer to my manual every time I mess with the AVR, there is a lot of information in the manual, but it is organized and written such that you have to study the manual as a whole instead of just going to a single paragraph and getting all you need to know.
If you feel like you messed up the settings it does not take very long to run MCAAC again.
Actually running MCAAC a few times and checking the EQ and standing wave settings each time is a pretty good idea... if the mic does not get moved the EQ and the standing wave filters should always be the same.... I find it interesting that this is not always the case in my system.


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

*Got my first sub measurements...*

Dale -

I just posted my first sub measurements in the REW section:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/48333-first-room-measurements.html


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