# New multi zone system with in ceiling speakers... help!



## Daniel_S (Apr 2, 2015)

Hello, I'm new to the forum and new to home theater in general, so apologies if I sound like a newbe but I am.
I'm planning my next apartment's new system, the place is under construction still so I wont have real pictures for a while but here's my thought, and please be as honest as you'd like!
Below you can see the blueprint and a terrible paint sketch of my idea, I'm thinking a 7:2 system (or a 5:2 if you guys think that I cramped too many speakers on the lounge area) all with in ceiling speakers, normal sub and a projector and a retractile projector screen. 

A couple of issues that I'm sure you'll comment on, the window behind the couch will be sorted with blackout blind, the door behind the screen is an issue since it's a guest bathroom, my though is not to use it when the screen is down of course, there are 4 other bathrooms in the apartment so we should be fine, would I regret that? 

In terms of equipment, here's what I'm thinking, and this is taken out of thin air so feel free to comment/criticize:
Receiver: Onkyo TX-NR636 

Projector: either an Epson 5030UB or a 3020, the latter is almost half the price of the first, what's your experience, the distance between the projector and the screen would be approximately 3 meters (10 feet)

Speakers:
here I'm completely lost, I was looking at the Polk Audio RC80i for the back, surround and front speakers, can they all be the same? I have no idea about the central one or the sub (the subwoofer would be on the floor, on the side of the couch).
For the second zone, I was thinking Polk Audio 80 F/X RT, does that make sense?

Total budget would be something around 3-4000 USD


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

ZONE 1

Just a comment.... It looks like you're placing *Surround Back* (SB Left and SB Right) over the couch where you will sit. And *Surround Left* and *Surround Right * above and forward of where you sit. 

Generally, Surround L + R are slightly behind listeners. 

What do others think? I don't have in-wall/ceiling speakers.

ZONE 2

My personal preference would not put Left and Right on opposite sides of where I'm sitting, listening.... Too much of a distraction. I would try to put them both near a wall, so that the Left + Right source is localized in a way the ear will find natural.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ok. Just a couple things. As chromejob said, surrounds should be slightly behind, and if the couch has to be against the back wall I'd go 5.1. Imo, it's not enough room for the speakers to work properly. I'd also move the L/R more in line with where the center is.(forward). Are in ceiling speakers an absolute? Performance is a compromise at best IMO, and I would really try to go more conventional.(maybe in wall?) At least with the front 3. I have some polk rc85i in another part of my house, and they are very nice. For what they are. A better place for the sub would help a lot too, but it looks like options are slim. 
Welcome!


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

I would highly recommend NOT going with ceiling speakers for the front three. They are so severely off-axis that you will get severely-reduced upper-frequency information from them. 

To get an idea what I’m talking about, imagine what a regular speaker in the room would sound with a heavy blanket thrown over it. The highs are what give the audible clue for imaging, such as when a sound pans from left to right. Without it you aren’t going to be able to tell what speaker a sound is originating in. IOW, you won’t be able to tell if the sound is coming from the right, left or center speaker. It’s just going to be a wall of muffled mush across the front channels. The only highs you’ll get will be from the back speakers overhead, which is going to sound really weird, unnatural and distracting.

In-wall (i.e. facing the seating) would be a much better option if you can’t do traditional speakers.

I agree with willis, with the couch against the wall you want a 5.1 set up. 7.1 only works when the back pair are behind the listening position.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Daniel_S (Apr 2, 2015)

Hello, thank you for the valuable tips. 
I can probalby have wall mounted speakers for the surround speakers, and might be able to pull off a in-wall for the L and R, however, if I put an in wall central speaker it will end up behind the projector's screen, wouldn't it be a major issue?

for zone 2 I'm flexible, I wanted to with in-celining to keep the sound system discrete. 

What do you suggest regarding the equipment receiver/speakers/projector?

thanks!!!


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## Daniel_S (Apr 2, 2015)

Here's a couple of better pictures for you to see what I mean... where should I put the center speaker? :sweat:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

It looks like the center of the screen is at the right side of the door opening. If you go on wall, get three of the same with matching brackets and mount the l/r where you show the in walls, and mount the cc below the screen. There will surely be studs there for the door framing. If not, add what you need. You could install 2x6 braces between the studs for the l/r brackets to mount to. You might have timbre issues, but that's probably what I'd do with the center even if you did go in wall. Zone 2, seems ok with in ceiling. Check out Beale street audio (???)for some in ceiling subs for zone 2. IMO in wall/ceiling should be considered last, but due to your tight confines, might be best.


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## Daniel_S (Apr 2, 2015)

Hello, excellent idea, thanks willis, the center is a little offset but I'm sure I wont hear the difference.

I feel wiser already, what a great forum!

Now to next question.. equipment, surfing around I've put together these two options, an expensive one and a cheaper one:

Expensive
L + R	​Klipsch R-5650-W	pair ​$700,00 
C	​Klipsch R-5502-W	1 ​$400,00 
surround	​Klipsch Reference RS-42 II	pair ​$360,00 
Subwoofer	​Klipsch R-110SW ​$550,00 

Zone 2 ​Boston Acoustics CS280	pair ​$240,00 

Receiver	​?? ​$500,00 

Projector	​Epson Home Cinema 3020 1080p, HDMI, 3LCD, Real 3D	1 ​$1.400,00 

Cheaper
L + R	​Polk Audio RC85i	pair ​$360,00 
C	​Polk Audio 255C-RT	1 ​$200,00 
surround	​Bose® 161	pair ​$320,00 
Subwoofer	​?? Klipsch SW-110 ​$300,00 

Zone 2 ​Boston Acoustics CS280	pair ​$240,00 

Receiver	​?? ​$400,00 

Projector	​Epson Home Cinema 3020 1080p, HDMI, 3LCD, Real 3D	1 ​$1.400,00 

What would you suggest? Also, I'm completely lost about receivers...

THANKS!!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ok! That's a list. For fronts I like the 5502 more than the 5650. Mounted vertically. 3 of them would only be 100more.(if I can add lol) Either way, I'd use 3of the same. The 42's look good for surround duty. If the couch could move off the wall some, it would help surround imaging, and calm the bass down. Speaking of bass, I'd also recommend a sub from an ID company like SVS, PSA, rythmik, HSU, or reaction audio. The klipsch sub rolls off to high(27hz listed), and would do ok for music. But for movies, it wouldn't go deep enough. Someone more qualified will have to talk about projectors, but I do know epson seems to be a good value, as well as BenQ. Receivers...I'm outta room.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

AVR. I would look at A4L. They offer great value with authorized refurbs. You can save roughly 50% or more. The real question is what kind of features are you after. AirPlay, room correction, built in streaming etc. Denon, marantz, Yamaha and Onkyo basically represent the short list. More to cover. Must sleep! Lol
http://www.accessories4less.com/mak.../receivers-amps/home-theater-receivers/1.html


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## NairbD (Nov 12, 2011)

For Receivers, I Have an Onkyo and I wish I had bought a Denon. For the Price/Feature Value, either is very hard to beat. HOWEVER, My Onkyo stopped working within the first 90 days and was repaired under warranty. Would have cost me $350.00 but repair that time was free. Worked well for nearly a year, then went bad again. This time I'm going to try and repair it myself. Repair guy told me almost all they see in their shop are Onkyo's, and even they have trouble getting parts for them. They recommended Denon. In fact the repair shop has stopped taking in Onkyo's because of the parts problem! They are a totally independent shop, affiliated with many companies to do warranty work and they don't SELL anything!

I concurr with the other posts re; speakers and placements. These guys are VERY helpful.


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

Airplay on my Yamaha is about as reliable as a bag of wet mice. Just FYI.

Interesting re: the Onkyo. What model?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

My onkyo is an 808 that had a board put in it they're honoring repairs through 2018(IIRC) even out of warranty. Mine was just past warranty. It's older so no AirPlay, but I use an airport express. Have to restart my phone once in awhile but mostly perfect.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

*AVR Zone 2 warning:*

I haven't researched AVR's in the last several years so maybe this isn't an issue anymore...

Many AVR's will NOT output digital sources to Zone 2. 
In other words, if you have all equipment connected to the AVR using digital connections (i.e. DVD player, BluRay player, CD player, Roku, cable box...), the AVR will NOT output any of these to Zone 2. 
If you want anything such as the CD player or Roku to be output to Zone 2, they must use analog connections.

_Digital Connections/Cables_: HDMI, Optical, TOSLink, S/PDIF, Coaxial Digital
_Analog Connections/Cables_: RCA (Composite), Phono


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

NairbD said:


> For Receivers, I Have an Onkyo and I wish I had bought a Denon. For the Price/Feature Value, either is very hard to beat. HOWEVER, My Onkyo stopped working within the first 90 days and was repaired under warranty. Would have cost me $350.00 but repair that time was free. Worked well for nearly a year, then went bad again. This time I'm going to try and repair it myself. Repair guy told me almost all they see in their shop are Onkyo's, and even they have trouble getting parts for them. They recommended Denon. In fact the repair shop has stopped taking in Onkyo's because of the parts problem! They are a totally independent shop, affiliated with many companies to do warranty work and they don't SELL anything!
> 
> I concurr with the other posts re; speakers and placements. These guys are VERY helpful.


Re: Onkyo problems WARNING OFF-SITE LINK


*Spoiler* 



http://www.hometheaterforum.com/ind...-HDMI-Issues/page__view__findpost__p__4154425




Here are some links:

http://www.onkyousa.com/Support/service_info.php#
https://repair.onkyousa.com/na/


// Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


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## NairbD (Nov 12, 2011)

WOW, If it's true that ONKYO will extend warranty longer, that would save me a real headache. I'll look into it at post my results later. Thanks a bunch! You guys are GREAT!


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

I can't vouch for what it covers, BUT having seen it recently, it seemed worth sharing. Good luck!

This fault sounds similar to an issue my Yamaha is having. Wonder if they share the same network chip....


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## NairbD (Nov 12, 2011)

Thanks Chromejob, I don't think mine is a network problem, It just wont play anything from any source, I'll follow your leads and let you know. Thanks again!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

NairbD said:


> Thanks Chromejob, I don't think mine is a network problem, It just wont play anything from any source, I'll follow your leads and let you know. Thanks again!


 sounds like an hdmi board. Mine would freeze up when using net/usb. It would start working if I unplugged it. Finally it just gave up. :-(


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## NairbD (Nov 12, 2011)

You're about the 5th person who told me to look at the HDMI board.... I'll let you know what happens with Onkyo.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

NairbD said:


> You're about the 5th person who told me to look at the HDMI board.... I'll let you know what happens with Onkyo.


 lol. Keep us posted!


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## NairbD (Nov 12, 2011)

Willis; Was just looking at your equipment list. We have similar tastes. I'll have to check my model # on the Onkyo but it's an NR 80something, (It's in storage until I can fix it). And I LOVE my old JBS's


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

I would suggest lowering the screen. It's wa-a-ay too high for seating that close to it. Then you could put the center speaker above the screen.

Regards,
Wayne


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## NairbD (Nov 12, 2011)

Nice post Wayne, I mounted my 70" above the fireplace, after the first week I had fairly severe neck pain. 
And I'm a Chiropractor! Some of us have to learn the hard way.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Daniel_S said:


> Hello, thank you for the valuable tips.
> I can probalby have wall mounted speakers for the surround speakers, and might be able to pull off a in-wall for the L and R, however, if I put an in wall central speaker it will end up behind the projector's screen, wouldn't it be a major issue?
> 
> for zone 2 I'm flexible, I wanted to with in-celining to keep the sound system discrete.
> ...


Just get a AT Screen. :T


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

NairbD said:


> Nice post Wayne, I mounted my 70" above the fireplace, after the first week I had fairly severe neck pain.
> And I'm a Chiropractor! Some of us have to learn the hard way.


We did the same with our 47" but we are sitting 14' from it so we don't have a problem. Have you seen the new FP mounts that extend outward and then down for fireplace installs?


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Chromejob said:


> I can't vouch for what it covers, BUT having seen it recently, it seemed worth sharing. Good luck!
> 
> This fault sounds similar to an issue my Yamaha is having. Wonder if they share the same network chip....


I know someone in another forum that bought a Onkyo used and had a HDMI board problem, and Onkyo covered it.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Daniel_S said:


> Hello, excellent idea, thanks willis, the center is a little offset but I'm sure I wont hear the difference.
> 
> I feel wiser already, what a great forum!
> 
> ...


If you went with an AT screen you wouldn't even see the speakers. :T


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

ellisr63 said:


> We did the same with our 47" but we are sitting 14' from it so we don't have a problem. Have you seen the new FP mounts that extend outward and then down for fireplace installs?


 good call on AT. I have seen the fp mounts. Just plain Genius. I think they should be included in every home build with the plan being for the TV above the fireplace.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

NairbD said:


> And I LOVE my old JBS's


 curious, what do you have? I have to say, I do love mine as well. Only a few times I've ever thought of replacing them. I know there're others out there, and I have them on my list but...
Interesting bio. (It says you have an 807 lol)


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## NairbD (Nov 12, 2011)

AH, an NR 807, what a great Idea, I should have checked my own Bio...Thanks. As for my speakers; I bought my JBL's in 1974. 8" extended range woofer/mid and a 075 (Bullet) Tweeter. They were bought individually and from the "Professional Catalogue". not sure if Harmon has them any more, I know the 075 are no longer made... a real shame as these things go up to 45K. I measured 12K to 40K within about 2db. I've seen them on EBay for &150.00 (I think I paid $75.00 ea. originally)
The 8" handles bass so well that my Polk Audio 10" Powered sub seems nearly redundant for music but nice for Theatre.(Thinking about getting a "Butt Kicker" for the LFE to attach to my couch !). I built the Cabs. The crossover is also JBL stock, I think... I'll look for the model ##'s if your interested. I don't know your musical taste, mine is quite varied but I prefer a clear, airy and present top end rather then the "Boomy" bass most people seem to enjoy today. My JBL's provide solid, thumpy bass without the "BOOM". My friend stored my system in his warehouse for several years while I was "absent from audio". He is a FOH engineer for touring music groups. One of his clients (Neil Young) wanted a concert sound system that could handle 35-40Khz (Young is somewhat of an audiophile), so my friend "borrowed" my 075's and connected them to his massive FOH system. CSNY were happy, my friend was happy but when he put them back in my cabs, they didn't work...he thought he blew the voice coil. I took a look and I had done some "creative wiring" inside the cab so I could bi-amp, change phase etc. He just simply wired them wrong and the worked great after we reconnected them properly. Like all of us, I guess, we're always looking for the newest and best of everything. IF I get new speakers - (Paradigms ?) I would NEVER give up my JBL's...just to hard to beat by old OR modern standards, I'm an old analogue guy and I'm still learning however.


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## Daniel_S (Apr 2, 2015)

Thank you guys, I didn't even know AT screens existed, off to shop now!


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

Wow. 40 yo speakers that still hold up. Beats my 20somethings...!


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## NairbD (Nov 12, 2011)

Yes AT screens are great for your purposes. As far as amps and receiver go, look into "Emotiva" and Marantz too.

Brian


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