# Does wire, capacitors, or resistors make a difference?



## Danny Richie (Jul 12, 2009)

There are those that have been lead to believe that wire is wire and parts are parts and that if it measures the same then it sounds the same. And the objective verse subjective aspects have been debated to death. 

But, how would you like to find out for yourself? 

This is challenge that I put together a year or more ago over on AC. And I guess it ran its coarse over there. 

Here is what we did. We took a commercially available speaker that measured reasonably well then went into an replicated the stock crossover with an identically measuring crossover using much higher quality parts. And switches were put on the back of the speaker, as well as a separate set of inputs, for fast A/B comparisons. 

The speakers chosen was the Behringer B2031P "The truth!" The real truth was that it needed some help. 

Here is where you can find some info on them: http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B2031P.aspx

Okay, the new crossovers that are identical to the stock crossovers use Sonicaps, a Mills resistor and an Erse XQ air core inductor. We also used our high purity OFC wire that uses a solid core in polyethylene. Both networks measure exactly the same. 










One main switch is used to switch the crossover components in or out of the circuit from each network being used or not used. I later added a switch to each woofer circuit of each network to switch each entire circuit in or out. The crossovers are mounted inside and the three switches are mounted on the binding post cup. 

As you can see the cabinets have also been lined with No Rez to remove some of the coloration of the cabinet resonances that were masking some of the bass and lower mid-range. Some additional fiberglass insolation was used as well and install behind the woofer. 










There are tube connectors used for the upgraded network and the stock binding post are used for the stock network. 

Flip all of the switches up towards the stock binding post, and the stock binding posts and stock crossover is used. Flip all switches down, and the lower tube connectors are used with the higher quality crossover parts. 

Here is a pic of the back. 










I figured it would be better if the speakers were at least not being held back by zip cord speaker cables. The bummer is that the cables cost more than the speakers. :lol: So I had my good friends at Electra Cable make a nice set of speaker cables with dual ends. It has standard banana plugs for the stock crossover and the male studs that fit the tube connectors. Here is the custom made, 10 foot long pair of cables from Electra Cable. 










So you use one set of plugs or the other and not both at the same time. So switching is pretty quick. Move some connectors form one to the other and flick three switches. 

See Electra Cable tube connectors here: http://www.electracable.com/tubeconnector.htm

I am willing to let these be sent all over the country to various listening groups. Whoever is receiving them must be responsible for them though. So whoever that person is will need to contact me with credit card information needed for securing them while they have them. 

The next person or group in line will need to contact me to do the same. 

I will then forward shipping information to whoever has them and they (or that group) will be responsible for shipping them to the next auditioning person or group. 

So who would like to give them a try?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

So a widely known name in the studio monitor field is selling something with noticeable cabinet resonance, insufficient dampening and a cheap crossover network? That's a bit disconcerting, to be completely honest. I'm not really in the position to take you up on the challenge, but I do find the particulars that led you to this point somewhat disturbing.


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## Danny Richie (Jul 12, 2009)

> So a widely known name in the studio monitor field is selling something with noticeable cabinet resonance, insufficient dampening and a cheap crossover network? That's a bit disconcerting, to be completely honest.


Actually that's very typical, especially in these low price points. 



> but I do find the particulars that led you to this point somewhat disturbing.


That's odd. I did not post the particulars that lead to this happening. What about this seems disturbing to you?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Danny Richie said:


> That's odd. I did not post the particulars that lead to this happening. What about this seems disturbing to you?


The particulars, from my vantage point, were a a resonating cabinet, lack of dampening and a low-budget crossover. There was more?


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

I am not sure I understand your point either, Jim. Danny is offering up a chance to make a comparison and do an easy blind test. If the parts don't make any difference, and the response measures the same, why would it be disturbing? Now I do see too many variables to conclude where any differences are coming from, but his challenge seems reasonable.


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## Danny Richie (Jul 12, 2009)

> The particulars, from my vantage point, were a a resonating cabinet, lack of dampening and a low-budget crossover. There was more?


Where it all started was back on AC with a fellow deep in the objective camp. By that I mean a guy that believes that if something measures the same then it sounds the same. And expensive capacitors and wire is all snake oil... I am sure you guys have seen the on line debates on this stuff. 

So I said okay, let's take an inexpensive, commonly available speaker, and use it as a base for comparisons. And this particular guy also owned a pair of these same Behringer speakers and thought that they had to be as great as great can be because they had a pretty good on axis response. So they looked like a good choice. 

Then a buddy of mine, Rich Hollis, bought the speakers and sent them to me. And the whole comparison thing was set up. 

You can see one of the original threads on it here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87808.0 It had a provocative title to get everyone's attention. :gulp: There was also some bantering and carrying on as if everyone in the discussion had something to loose. Some people get real worked up over this stuff. I don't really get too worked up over any of that stuff. Most of the guys that get the most worked up and that are most assured that all that stuff makes no difference are usually the same guys that have never listened for themselves. So it only seemed right that they at least have the opportunity to listen for themselves. 

And so what it did was allow a lot of people to hear for themselves what type of difference things like this can make. Granted a lot of things were changed besides the crossover including upgraded connectors, and wire. But most in what the so called "Nay Sayer's" camp didn't believe that any of that stuff made a difference anyway. 

So it was a bit of a learning exercise.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

lcaillo said:


> I am not sure I understand your point either, Jim. Danny is offering up a chance to make a comparison and do an easy blind test. If the parts don't make any difference, and the response measures the same, why would it be disturbing? Now I do see too many variables to conclude where any differences are coming from, but his challenge seems reasonable.


Actually, I don't think anything about his challenge is the least bit unreasonable - it's rather generous of him to do something like that. I suspect the outcome is preordained though, otherwise I'm not sure he would be doing it. I could certainly be wrong, but my guess is the audible differences will be rather obvious, and that his modifications wound up making the speakers sound better. My point was just one of surprise, that a few modifications like what Danny did could potentially lead to noticeable improvements in overall sound quality. I've always found Behringer to have a pretty solid reputation.

Of course that's purely conjecture on my part, because I've never heard those speakers, but it's pretty apparent he knows a thing or two about how to design them. :TT I'm certainly not attempting to refute anything, so don't think that. Truth be told, I'd strongly encourage anyone who has even the slightest bit of curiosity to take Danny up on his offer. It's certainly a very unique opportunity, one not likely to come along too often (if ever again).


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## HAL (Sep 22, 2009)

Hey, those look like a pair of speakers I know! :T


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## Danny Richie (Jul 12, 2009)

Actually Jim the outcome of the A/B listening test did have some variables that effected the results. 

I'd say that about 98% reported differences from subtle to immediate night and day. 

The system has a lot to do with it. One guy with a inexpensive CD player and receiver using cheap wiring noticed no difference. And that is not unexpected. If the rest of the system is coloring the signal that much then it just makes hearing differences in things like this much harder. 

The guys that reported hearing difference in the first few seconds of switching had fairly high end systems. No surprises there. 

Another factor is how one listens when comparing. I have conducted A/B listening test several times. And it is easy to skew the results by how the comparisons are made. For instance if I play an entire song for a small group of people using a system that they have never heard and a song that they are not real familiar with, then the memory retention is just not great enough to recall differences for that long of a sample. But if I play an intro over and over a few times and let everyone really memorize the subtle details. Then switch... Well then the differences are readily apparent, and apparent to everyone. 

So some people giving this a try could be learning more about their own system than anything else.


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## pharoah (Jul 21, 2012)

i defo think the quality of crossover parts.can have a direct impact on the quality of the sound.i know this from recapping vintage speaker crossovers.


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## Danny Richie (Jul 12, 2009)

HAL said:


> Hey, those look like a pair of speakers I know! :T


Yeah thanks for making this happen by sending me the speakers. 

So who wants to give these a listen?


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

I'm using 2030p's for my LCR speakers and I would love to hear the difference in sound quality between the standard crossover and high end crossover..But I'm on the other side of the world so it wouldn't be practical..

I did a similar test decades ago, just replacing the ferrite core inductors in a commercial speaker with air core inductors..The difference was noticeable immediately..


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## Danny Richie (Jul 12, 2009)

> I did a similar test decades ago, just replacing the ferrite core inductors in a commercial speaker with air core inductors..The difference was noticeable immediately..


Yep, that can make a very noticeable difference. That's nothing compared to the differences in capacitors though. That is where the biggest differences come from.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

I can imagine that there would be some improvement with high capacitance capacitors..those related to bass crossovers.. but would the higher capacitance non-polarized capacitors make any difference?


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## Danny Richie (Jul 12, 2009)

Prof. said:


> I can imagine that there would be some improvement with high capacitance capacitors..those related to bass crossovers.. but would the higher capacitance non-polarized capacitors make any difference?


When doing an upgrade like this the capacitance doesn't get any higher. If it did then it would change the transfer function of the crossover. The values are left the same. And capacitance remains the same. 

Of all the things one can change, or the one thing with the greatest amount of variance to the performance or sound, is the capacitor. By far.

Inductors, resistors, and wire can also have a dramatic effect too, but not as dramatic as the capacitor.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

Yeah..Sorry I didn't put that very well! :R
What I meant to say was the BIGGER uF capacitors in the bass / midrange crossover..They can make a big difference in the sound quality..depending on the quality of the capacitors..but I wouldn't have thought that the different quality non-polarized capacitors would have made much difference!..Live and learn!


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## Danny Richie (Jul 12, 2009)

Prof. said:


> Yeah..Sorry I didn't put that very well! :R
> What I meant to say was the BIGGER uF capacitors in the bass / midrange crossover..They can make a big difference in the sound quality..depending on the quality of the capacitors..but I wouldn't have thought that the different quality non-polarized capacitors would have made much difference!..Live and learn!


Yes, even the larger value caps used in lower frequency ranges can have a dramatic effect on the sound. Most of those larger caps are slower discharging by their size alone. So by-passing them with a smaller cap can have a dramatic effect as well.


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## ron (Sep 19, 2012)

I agree with Danny that the type of wire, capacitors, and resistors used do make an audible difference. I have built quite a few GR Research speakers over the years using the stock crossover parts and with 
Sonicap and Mills resistors which are performance upgrades. In my opinion the performance upgrades do indeed
make an audible improvement especially when using the Neo 3 PDR magnetic planer tweeter. The upgrades allow for a cleaner, more detailed, and transparent sound quality. Also, the solid core high purity copper wire that Danny provides makes the sound cleaner in my opinion. I normally use the performance upgrade parts on all the GR Research speakers I presently build as well as Non-Rez sound danping treatment for the cabinet internal walls. These performance upgrades cost a little more but if you want the best performance from
your speakers it is worth.

Ron


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## Danny Richie (Jul 12, 2009)

I am surprised that no one here wanted to try the free demo.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Oh, I would love to Danny - I just don't have a room to do it in yet! I will be giving it a go when I have something set up to be able to do it.....


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

Do you offer free return shipping to Oz? :R


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## Danny Richie (Jul 12, 2009)

The offer is only good for here in the US.


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## bryman79 (Mar 1, 2013)

I’ve been babysitting these for a while now, so it's time to post some impressions. My listening sessions were spaced apart by a few weeks as I have less and less time for audio these days. The differences I describe below were more noticeable initially, and became less apparent during subsequent listening sessions.

The modified configuration seemed to be smoother and provide more depth, while the stock configuration was a bit grittier and more one-dimensional. Overall, the modified configuration was more involving and fun to listen to.

Note that A/B testing with this configuration was difficult since it requires you to stop the music, get up, flip three switches on each speaker, sit back down, and then resume listening. Improvements could be made by mechanically tying the three switches together, and further, by using a relay or some other means for allowing remote switching from the listening position.

-Bryan


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## Danny Richie (Jul 12, 2009)

Thanks Bryan, 

In addition to flipping the switches the speaker wire has to be pulled out and moved to the other inputs. 

All in all the switch doesn't take too long though. I couldn't make it any faster. 

Your descriptions are very much consistent with the norm. 

Thanks for the feedback. 

Anyone else want to give this a shot?


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## mlundy57 (May 21, 2013)

I'd be willing to give them a go. I'm in the Tulsa OK area.

Mike


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## Danny Richie (Jul 12, 2009)

mlundy57 said:


> I'd be willing to give them a go. I'm in the Tulsa OK area.
> 
> Mike


Okay, shoot me an e-mail on this or give me a call. 

[email protected]

940-592-3400


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## mlundy57 (May 21, 2013)

These speakers arrived via Fed-Ex a couple days age. Thanks Bryan.

I have set them up in the smaller upstairs room to begin with. In this location they are powered by a Denon 1912 AVR with a Sony BDP S-570 as the source. In addition to CD's, SACD's, DVD's and Blu-Ray discs I have music in uncompressed wav files ranging in resolution from 44.1Kz/16 bit to 192Kz/24 bit.

I have only listened to these speakers a little bit so far. My initial impressions are that, in this system at least, with the stock crossovers the drivers sound like they are playing through a veil, kind of subdued, muffled or held back. The modified crossovers sound more open, cleaner, clearer, and have more depth. This is most noticeable at low to moderate volume levels but still exists at higher levels. 

With some types of music, like rock, the differences are less noticeable. With instrumental and voice pieces the differences are much more apparent. 

After I listen to them in this location a while longer I plan on switching them to my 2 channel system. This system is powered by a NAD C372 stereo amp with a computer playing through an AudioQuset Dragonfly DAC as the source. J River Media Center controls the music which is in uncompressed FLAC files with resolutions from 44.1/16 to 192/24. 

Mike


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## mlundy57 (May 21, 2013)

I have now spent a few weeks listening to these speakers and comparing the different crossover networks in different set-ups. As I mentioned above, first I set them up in the smaller upstairs room. In this location they were powered by a Denon 1912 AVR (90 wpc in stereo mode) with a Sony BDP S-570 as the source. In addition to CD's, SACD's, DVD's and Blu-Ray discs I have music on a thumb drive for this unit in uncompressed wav files ranging in resolution from 44.1Kz/16 bit to 192Kz/24 bit. Speakers were connected with AudioQuest X-2 speaker wire with AudioQuest banana plugs. I was unable to use the Electra Cable B4 speaker wires that came with the speakers because the Denon AVR would not accept spade lugs.

In this system the stock crossovers sounded like the speakers were playing through a veil, kind of subdued, muffled or held back. The modified crossovers sounded more open, cleaner, clearer, and had more depth. This was most noticeable at low to moderate volume levels but still existed at higher levels. With some types of music, like rock, the differences were a little less noticeable. With instrumental and voice pieces the differences were much more apparent. I spent a number of listening sessions over multiple nights comparing the crossovers and the differences were consistent. The more I listened, the less I wanted to switch back to the stock crossovers. When I reached the point where I wouldn't switch back to the stock crossovers I knew this experiment was over, at least for this system.

Next I listened to them with the 2 channel system in my office. This system is powered by a NAD C372 (150 wpc) stereo amp with a computer playing through an AudioQuset Dragonfly DAC as the source. J River Media Center controls the music which is in uncompressed FLAC files with resolutions from 44.1/16 to 192/24. This amplifier would accept space lugs so I compared the different crossovers with both the Electra Cable B4 speaker wires and Blue Jeans Cable 10 White with locking banana plugs into the amp and Electra Tube Connectors to the speakers. 

The results were the same. The stock crossovers sounded subdued while the upgraded crossovers were much clearer and cleaner. Different amplifiers, sources, speaker wire, it didn't matter. With every combination the upgraded crossovers were clearly superior.

Actually being able to listen to and compare two crossovers with identical electrical measurements but different quality level components is the best way to answer this question for yourself.

Thanks Danny!

Mike


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