# At what cost is DIY > Bought



## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

I am intrigued by DIY speakers. All of the options, shapes, finishes, presumed value interest me. Unfortunately, I am just starting out and have zero tools or experience. I do not have any cabinetry experience or wood finishing experience. I do not own a table saw, router, clamps or anything.

For someone like me, who is intrigued but completely unexperienced. What range of DIY cost becomes a better value than bought speakers? Would the flat packs be my best place to start? Something like Overnight sensations or something from Parts Express.

Or will it be a learning curve where it might be a few builds before I create any value over buying the speakers?

Did anyone else come at this hobby like me or did you all have some tools/woodworking experience before hand?

Thanks for all the replies. I really enjoy following the build threads.


----------



## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

I would say that generally speaking that DIY is cheaper.

Flat packs are a great way to go. Here are some great kits w/flat packs:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/speaker-kits/small-kits.html

I had some wood working experience and my tool collection is always growing. You can build almost anything as long as you have a router and a table saw.

I love flat packs - since they are generally CNC machined. Hard to beat the precision.


----------



## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

>>Or will it be a learning curve where it might be a few builds before I create any value over buying the speakers?

I don't think it takes a few builds to create any value over buying.

But by the same measure, there are lots of commercial speakers that have a high performance to value... but I think it takes some digging to find those that are a bargain.

Many low-end commercial speakers have rather poor/mediocre drivers that are easy to beat.


----------



## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

I came from a similar background as you, the only tools I had were from some home improvements I had done. The initial investments in tools for DIY was small, just a portable craftsman table saw and a router with circle jig. After my first DIY venture I was hooked and now my tool collection takes up half of my garage.

The flat packs Jim pointed out from diysoundgroup.com are an excellent start. I built a pair of there Anarchy flat packs as I wanted to try a tapped horn and the quality was exceptional.


----------



## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

I built a pair of Anarchy flat packs too - and was impressed.

The precision was better than my cutting skills! Panels fit like a glove.


----------



## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

Jim and Mike,

Thanks for the responses. Is there a list available anywhere of currently available flat packs?

I know of the diyaudiogroup and partsexpress but not much more.

I think a flat pack would be the best place for me to start.

Thanks


----------



## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

Sphinx said:


> Jim and Mike,
> 
> Thanks for the responses. Is there a list available anywhere of currently available flat packs?
> 
> ...


Erich of DIY Audio Group seems to be the go-to person for flat packs right now - he has them for a few different designs. I've asked him about flat packs for larger speakers - but shipping can end up being substantial. If you browse his site, there are 3-4 flat packs (same as kits): http://www.diysoundgroup.com/flat-packs-1/small-flatpacks.html

I know he's been working to get more packs available via Parts Express.

Parts Express has some great finished cabinets, but they cost some money.


----------



## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

diysoundgroup is supposed to have a lot more flat packs within the next couple of months from what I have read. He is also planning on having flat pack kits for his SEOS speaker designs which I am planning on making my first speaker build, to this point I have only built subs.


----------



## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

Zeitgeist said:


> I built a pair of Anarchy flat packs too - and was impressed.
> 
> The precision was better than my cutting skills! Panels fit like a glove.


The precision trumps my cutting skills as well. I wish I could afford a CNC but with the prices Erich makes the flat packs available for it doesn't make sense.


----------



## fbov (Aug 28, 2008)

Sphinx said:


> I am intrigued by DIY speakers. ...have zero tools or experience. I do not have any cabinetry experience or wood finishing experience. I do not own a table saw, router, clamps or anything....
> What range of DIY cost becomes a better value than bought speakers? ....


DIY is a very broad concept, from kit assembly to clean sheet design. Here are examples of options, recommended but not exclusively so. There are a lot of good sources. 

There is a price tradeoff if you want to avoid woodworking, in that many kits are available with pre-cut baffles and pre-finished enclosures. Here's one that was a particularly good deal last week at $250.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-970

You don't need any power tools to build kits like this and get a professional finish. 

The next level is a pre-cut kit, like Erich's flatpacks (I'm a customer, very high quality) or this:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-702

This will require a lot of sanding, paint or veneer, etc., but no power tools beyong a sander, and it looks as good as the time you put in (see below)

From there, tools start to get expensive. You can get precision cuts at some woodworking lumber yards, and questionable precision cuts at HD/Lowes. You will need a router as it's not possible to do a good job recessing drivers without one. Your time investment goes way up, and you start to save a little money. 

However, you will always pay more for DIY at the low end. To my mind, it's when you start using high quality drivers and XO components that you achieve a price break, but only if you match the exquisite finish found on high end speakers. The only real cost advantage to DIY is that you don't count the cost of your labor. The more labor that goes into a speaker, the greater your opportunity for savings. 

HAve fun,
Frank


----------



## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

Thanks Frank,

I am not against getting the tools, just stated that I do not have any currently and the initial outlay would need to be factored in.

As you have used the flat packs from Erich and recommend the PE kits, do you think that those packages for <300 are better than some of the commonly recommended speakers in that range such as, but no limited to the Primus P153, Cambridge S30, Energy RC30, Polk M30/40, and other entry level offerings?


----------



## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I started speaker building when i was 14 yrs old and the only tools i had were my fathers Skill saw, a nice aluminum straight edge for cutting even lines, and a recipracting saw for cutting holes, oh, and a drill. As time went by and my skills improved and learnd new techniques my tool collection grew to everything i need to do the job precisley. After you've been bitten by the DIY bug there is no going back and that is where you'll sart collecting all of what you need to do a good job.:T


----------



## kwalikum (Oct 31, 2011)

Hi, not to take this thread in a direction unintended by the OP, but what about buying used? You can pick up some great deals on ebay and "used" doesn't have to mean decades old and abused, nor is newer always better. Seems to me a lot of DIY kits are more expensive than similar second hand stuff, altho quality comparisons can be difficult...


----------



## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

You are fine. I had thought to put bought/used in the title. My SVS sub was bought used and was a great value. I am not sure a DIY sub for the price I paid would have be able to compete.

I think the value of similar price diy speakers to used speakers comes from sense of accomplishment, custom finishes, size, shape choices, and get it done when you want. Whereas, you have to find or wait for that deal on ebay or craigslist or garage sale, even if the sales are great.


----------



## Jstslamd (Nov 30, 2010)

If its puts the tritrix kit into perspective. Here is what mine turned out looking like. They are covered in the cherry vinyl from PE and paint with rattle can gloss black paint ( after many coats of high build primer) the grills are something I added to them. Just a little food for thought. They also sound as good as the look.


----------



## vann_d (Apr 7, 2009)

I believe DIY subs have an advantage over speakers. For instance, can you find anyone that sells a 7.0 cubic foot sub with 15" driver tuned to 15 Hz for $400? I think not. This is the DIY reality.

W.R.T. speakers, I don't know. I was able to get a pair of Klipsch RB-82 for $500 from Ultimate Electronics. That is pretty good value. The Infinity Primus line is a of a value as well.

For speakers, I think the DIY value comes in when you have less concern with aesthetics and more concern with performance. Most "high end" speakers spend a of a lot on fit and finish. If you are ok with a duratech finish and a no-frills cabinet design, you can stuff some seriously good drivers in an enclosure (from a proven design, of course) and come out way ahead. I'm leaning towards 4pi's for my next speakers. They should be on par with those costing thousands. (I am also partial to high efficiency, btw)


----------



## tshifrin (Nov 24, 2011)

For me, the other big advantage (besides the solid value of the finished product) to building something like the Tritrix and the OS is to follow the designer's decisions and learn the basics of speaker design. Personally, my goal in this is to understand the practice, and design it myself; but rather than reinvent the wheel, I follow the established designs to learn how best to approach it for myself. You can buy and build kits to have better speakers for less money than commercial, but by reading stuff like Alden's "Speaker Building 201" and following the designer's thoughts in achieving a proven result, you can also understand the design behind the product.

Tom


----------



## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

Tom,

I have checked a few books from the library to get used to some of the terminology. The book you mentioned wasn't a choice. I might have the library request it from somewhere else. I am waiting for Dr. Toole's book to arrive, hopefully in the coming month.

Vann_d,

I think there is great value in the feeling of accomplishment, sense of learning that you would get from building a speaker also. I might build a sub if I don't find a good deal on one. I have a post in the SPL subforum with some graphs of my current room response - very peaky. I second sub would greatly help.

Anything I learn from staining/finishing will help with kitchen or bath remodels also.


----------



## tshifrin (Nov 24, 2011)

I found Alden's book just right for the absolute beginner; starts with some physics of sound, carries you through the math, and very well organized. The best recommendation I can give is, the book demystified the Qs. It's not very expensive, and PE sells it discounted; I go back to it every week for some issue or other.
My current read is Dickason's "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook," also highly recommended, but he assumes you know the basics.
Building a sub is one of the highest value things you can do; you can build a sub for around $500 all-in that will compete with commercial products costing thousands. Learn the basics, download WinISD, play with the numbers; you'll come up with a winner!

Tom


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Even a budget setup for building speakers requires a solid amount of tools. 
Router
Skillsaw
and
Drill

If you get the right blades you don't necessarily need a sander. A forrest woodworker blade makes smooth cuts. 

A self clamping straight edge can be found at woodcraft or rockler and is fantastic for making cuts. 

You will also need a lot of clamps. At least six per gluing step. A couple small ones to hold material for the drill and router are a good idea too. I recommend a straight drill guide if you are using a jasper jig. It lets you top the bit before you poke through the backer board and gives you a dead straight hole. 

I suggest you build a pair of plywood shelves before you build a speaker. They are more forgiving and will help you learn your tools. With proper experience DIY audio is definitely a worthy hobby.


----------



## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

lsiberian said:


> Even a budget setup for building speakers requires a solid amount of tools.
> Router
> Skillsaw
> and
> ...


:T:T You've nailed it on the head with all the tools needed to do the job correctly. 

P.S. I've always wanted that self clamping straight edge your talking about then i bought a nice Powermatic tablesaw so no worries about straight cuts anymore. I do however wish i could afford Forrest blades, i however use Freud cutting blades for all my projects with great results.:T


----------



## johnnyrichards (May 3, 2011)

Commercial loudspeakers seem to be pushing the envelope every year on budget offerings. I design a lot of budget speakers, not out of any sense of trying to get high-end out of a little coin but just because it is a fascinating process with lots to learn.

That being said, to do DIY from the ground up requires a not insubstantial investment in tools, measurement capability, and a whole box of caps, coils, and resistors. I figure I have over $2,500 in the tools and prototyping components that I use on each design. It takes a long time to amortize that cost out to where a couple $20 woofers and tweeters are competitive with a Primus 160.

There is a rule of thumb talked about from time to time in DIY circles that a well-executed DIY design should compete with a commercial design costing 10x the sum of its drivers and crossover. This does not include cabinetry. This ROT is probably not accurate, as the inverse rarely holds true. No DIY'er can duplicate, say, a Primus center channel for $20 worth of drivers and crossover components.

This is where the multitude of flat packs are bringing DIY back around to a very high entry level value. Using "proven" designs and taking advantage of the manufacturing ability of CNC machines it is now relatively affordable to build your own speakers. The Tritrix kit from PE is a good example of this. Not a world class speaker, but at least as good as most any commercial offering in that price range. 

There are other -better- reasons to DIY, though. It_ is_ a lot of fun.:bigsmile:


----------



## fbov (Aug 28, 2008)

Sphinx said:


> Thanks Frank,... (is DIY) better than some of the commonly recommended speakers in that range such as, but no limited to the Primus P153, Cambridge S30, Energy RC30, Polk M30/40, and other entry level offerings?


Can't say, since I haven't heard the commercial offereings. One downside of DIY is you don't get out to listen to commercial speakers if you're heavily involved with your own designs/builds. Conversely, DIY get togethers are a great place to learn about what makes speakers sound as they do. 



Sphinx said:


> ...The book you mentioned wasn't a choice. I might have the library request it from somewhere else. I am waiting for Dr. Toole's book to arrive, hopefully in the coming month.
> ....


Alden's and Dickason's books are focused on loudspeaker design while Toole talks more about loudspeaker requirements than how to achieve the desired result. Toole summarizes what he's learned during a career in audio research, understanding what makes for a pleasant listening experience. His book tells you about your ears, the listening room and what to look for in a speaker that folks think sounds good. He tells you nothing about how to design that speaker, but rather the listening environment in which to use it. 50 pages on getting the bass right. A very good reference because he addresses common practice and rules-of-thumb, to show you what actually works and what doesn't in a home listening environment. 



johnnyrichards said:


> Commercial loudspeakers seem to be pushing the envelope every year on budget offerings. ...There are other -better- reasons to DIY, though. It_ is_ a lot of fun.:bigsmile:


Johnny's got a good perspective, based on a lot more experience than most.

Have fun,
Frank


----------



## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

I think my first foray into DIY will be a flatpack speaker pair on the inexpensive side of things. I will use these as garage or basement speakers or possibly kitchen or bedroom if I get get a good looking finish on them.

I am approaching this as a hobby, not as a way to save money on performance. However, if I could eventually get to both, I would be very pleased.

But along the lines of the title, if I ordered the overnight sensations for ~ 150 all materials considered, do you believe it would keep up with or beat out things like the Polk Monitor 40s, Pioneer BS41s, Infinity primus P153s or so on? These entry bookshelf speakers often go on sale at Newegg, Crutchfield, Vanns, so on.

I didn't know if, as someone stated before, the real value of DIY is you can control the labor/finish cost and build incredibly high performance speakers without the cost of curved cabinets, high gloss finishes or name brand.


----------



## isaeagle4031 (Feb 5, 2011)

If you build any of the kits available from DIYSoundgroup, trust me you will not be relegating them to garage use anytime soon. What Paul was able to coax out of these little things still amazes me. Also look over at Madisound.com and meniscus.com for kits. meniscus does not have cabinets available at this time, but it is worth exploring. I've built quite a few of the kits now, generally making my own cabinets. I've use the OS cabinets from Eric and they are top notch. Now I am starting to assemble the parts and pieces needed to fully design, test, and build my own designs.


----------



## johnnyrichards (May 3, 2011)

I know a couple of you guys


----------



## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

sub_crazy said:


> diysoundgroup is supposed to have a lot more flat packs within the next couple of months from what I have read. He is also planning on having flat pack kits for his SEOS speaker designs which I am planning on making my first speaker build, to this point I have only built subs.


Why type of packs have you heard that are coming soon? 

Is soon spring, 2012, or what?

I see on his website that the SEOS waveguides are in for preorder, but no flatpack yet.


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

johnnyrichards said:


> No DIY'er can duplicate, say, a Primus center channel for $20 worth of drivers and crossover components.:


I actually could do it for cheaper than the Primus(harman parts) :R 

I'm not a fan of the tweeter but the woofers are fantastic.


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

johnnyrichards said:


> This is where the multitude of flat packs are bringing DIY back around to a very high entry level value. Using "proven" designs and taking advantage of the manufacturing ability of CNC machines it is now relatively affordable to build your own speakers. The Tritrix kit from PE is a good example of this. Not a world class speaker, but at least as good as most any commercial offering in that price range.
> 
> There are other -better- reasons to DIY, though. It_ is_ a lot of fun.:bigsmile:


The minidsp and chip amp movement make DIY design much simpler and easier for us. It also allows us to use an active crossover. 

What is this flat pack craziness? That sounds like no way to get the smell of sawdust in the air.


----------



## hgoed (Mar 22, 2010)

My experience with DIY is that it is more expensive. I started from scratch, with no tools and no skills. To get away with fewer tools, one would need considerably more skill. People also don't tend to calculate the cost of trial and error and the fact that once one builds something themselves, they're more likely to modify it or try something new.
To learn any new skill is more expensive than to rent it. I pay about $100 semi-annually to go to the dentist, which is much cheaper than paying $100000 to go to dental school. That'd be an awkward DIY anyway.


----------



## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

Sphinx said:


> Why type of packs have you heard that are coming soon?
> 
> Is soon spring, 2012, or what?
> 
> I see on his website that the SEOS waveguides are in for preorder, but no flatpack yet.


I have read there are plans for flat packs that go with the SEOS which I really want but he already has a selection of about 6 that you can already order and another 6 that are coming soon on his flat pack page. For the prices I might be able to start selling off tools and regain half my garage back, his flat packs are really that good. 

I have hear that within the next month or 2 we should really start seeing a lot of flat packs, perfect timing for spring and summer builds.


----------



## isaeagle4031 (Feb 5, 2011)

hgoed said:


> My experience with DIY is that it is more expensive. I started from scratch, with no tools and no skills. To get away with fewer tools, one would need considerably more skill. People also don't tend to calculate the cost of trial and error and the fact that once one builds something themselves, they're more likely to modify it or try something new.
> To learn any new skill is more expensive than to rent it. I pay about $100 semi-annually to go to the dentist, which is much cheaper than paying $100000 to go to dental school. That'd be an awkward DIY anyway.


This can also depend on your price point. There are many established DIY designs that can easily compete with commercial offerings. It can take some research and time. Using a well-known, well-regarded design helps to relieve much of the trial and error. The Overnight Sensation is just one example. It is going to be very hard if not down right impossible IMO to find a commercial offering that does what these do at the price point. The icing on the cake is being able to finish them to your own taste and decor. Try that with a commercial design and see how much the price ticks up. 

I can't compare speaker DIY to a dentist, but I can compare it to the basics of my auto mechanic. Using some basic hand tools, I can perform the majority of my own maintenance. Then I can rely on his expertise when I am over my head without going to school to learn it.


----------



## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies. I have been following a few of Erich H of DIY Sound Group threads on other forums. It appears he will soon offer some new flat packs/ speaker kits. My birthday is coming up in April, if the new designs are not ready by then, I think I will order the OS kits and get my feet wet.

According to the website, some designs from Zaph will be available along with standard cubes for subwoofer sealed enclosures. The big push now is for the SEOS waveguide kits.

Has anyone built Econowaves? These seem to be a development off of those designs.


----------



## johnnyrichards (May 3, 2011)

I feel obligated to point out that the Overnight Sensations and Nano Neo are, like every other speaker at any price, not universally held in high regard. They each have their detractors. Herein lies a major hidden cost of DIY that many hardcore adherents rarely speak of - you may not like the design you choose to build. If at all possible (and that is difficult with DIY) schedule an audition. There are no 30-day in-home trial periods, no "satisfaction or your money back", and resale on DIY speakers is abysmal. You may be stuck with a speaker you are non too fond of. 

However, there are various DIY events across the country, and invariably a version of Overnight Sensations will show up. The DIY community is always glad to have more sets of ears in attendance, and even though ten minutes is not enough time to really get to know a design it should be enough time to get a handle on its major characteristics. 

Food for thought.


----------



## johnnyrichards (May 3, 2011)

I heard a version of the E-wave at a DIY event. Very loud. Interesting soundstage. I wouldn't go so far as to call them "revealing", but that isn't the point of the E-wave


----------



## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

johnnyrichards said:


> I feel obligated to point out that the Overnight Sensations and Nano Neo are, like every other speaker at any price, not universally held in high regard. They each have their detractors. Herein lies a major hidden cost of DIY that many hardcore adherents rarely speak of - you may not like the design you choose to build. If at all possible (and that is difficult with DIY) schedule an audition. There are no 30-day in-home trial periods, no "satisfaction or your money back", and resale on DIY speakers is abysmal. You may be stuck with a speaker you are non too fond of.
> 
> However, there are various DIY events across the country, and invariably a version of Overnight Sensations will show up. The DIY community is always glad to have more sets of ears in attendance, and even though ten minutes is not enough time to really get to know a design it should be enough time to get a handle on its major characteristics.
> 
> Food for thought.


I have yet to really read anything negative about the Overnight Sensations. It's one of the best reviewed DIY designs that I've read about. I totally agree that every speaker has it's strengths and weaknesses - no speaker is ever universally liked or hated.

While the lack of return policy might be a downside -- The upside is total and complete flexibility to replace a cabinet with new drivers, re-use the same drivers in a totally different design and totally rebuild a crossover if desired. Unless you're building just one pair and that's all you want to do.....rarely does anything ever become worthless. 

I think many DIY builders (especially the "regulars" at the Parts Express Tech Talk forums) -- simply tweak their designs till they are happy - considering it "unfinished" until they are happy -- or reached the limitations of the drivers.

A commercial speaker is take it or leave it... And very few people are willing to spend the time to rebuild a cheap crossover in a commercial speaker to tweak it. It's more practical to start over.


----------



## johnnyrichards (May 3, 2011)

I DIY purely for the sake of DIY, I gave up long ago on the "saving money" aspect  We get wrapped up in tweak mode, and burn through $500 worth of crossover components to milk the last 10% out of $100 worth of drivers, for example. 

For the DIY'er who is building the OS, yes - it is much cheaper (especially with flat packs removing most tools out of the picture. How exciting is it these days!). For the designer, maybe not so much. Of course, with each successive design there is less need to buy a pile of parts for prototyping, so value goes up with each build. The builder continues to benefit from the designers outlay, though. Components, measurement rigs, on one budget subwoofer design I went through seven cabinets before settling. For the guy building that little subwoofer, it represents a tremendous value, of course  I burned through $80 worth of plywood to get to the point where a $10 buyout subwoofer, cheap Dayton plate amp and 8" PR seemed like a nice combo. 

That's all I am trying to say, is that DIY is a better value for the guy who is building than it is for the guy doing the designing.


----------



## Zeitgeist (Apr 4, 2009)

johnnyrichards said:


> Components, measurement rigs, on one budget subwoofer design I went through seven cabinets before settling. For the guy building that little subwoofer, it represents a tremendous value, of course  I burned through $80 worth of plywood to get to the point where a $10 buyout subwoofer, cheap Dayton plate amp and 8" PR seemed like a nice combo.
> 
> That's all I am trying to say, is that DIY is a better value for the guy who is building than it is for the guy doing the designing.



Now that is the real fun in DIY! I just tore down the cabinets for some of my subs - and I'm going to rebuild them. The designer definitely bears the brunt of the time and cost, that's for sure.

I think that there are some very excellent commercial products though. Some that are not worth the effort, money and time to try to reproduce. So there is definitely a time and place where commercial is the way to go. There are some examples at which it's expensive to DIY or buy commercial. And other times that DIY can be expensive for a "cheap project". 

Buyout drivers can be deceptively cheap


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Sorry, I missed this thread.



Sphinx said:


> I am intrigued by DIY speakers. All of the options, shapes, finishes, presumed value interest me. Unfortunately, I am just starting out and have zero tools or experience. I do not have any cabinetry experience or wood finishing experience. I do not own a table saw, router, clamps or anything.


Neither did I when I built a fine looking 300lb sub using cement blocks, spray paint, a dulled skilsaw, and a jigsaw. In retrospect I'd have loved to use a router more than anything.



> For someone like me, who is intrigued but completely unexperienced. What range of DIY cost becomes a better value than bought speakers? Would the flat packs be my best place to start? Something like Overnight sensations or something from Parts Express.


I think it depends. 

There's some high value commercial stuff out there at the low end that DIY won't match. Pioneer's speakers for example.

Overall though it seems there's an emphasis in DIY on natural sound reproduction, rather than on "pleasing" showroom sound.



> Or will it be a learning curve where it might be a few builds before I create any value over buying the speakers?


Start with a well chosen "someone else's design", and you'll be building speakers that would retail anywhere from 3-10 times what you paid. That doesn't mean it'll sound as pleasing to your ears, of course, as any speaker retailing at 3-10 times that.



> Did anyone else come at this hobby like me or did you all have some tools/woodworking experience before hand?


Not unless you count eighth grade industrial arts class


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Sphinx said:


> I am not against getting the tools, just stated that I do not have any currently and the initial outlay would need to be factored in.


Build yourself a subwoofer from scratch. As you go through it you'll learn to evaluate whether or not you need x or y for a speaker build.



> As you have used the flat packs from Erich and recommend the PE kits, do you think that those packages for <300 are better than some of the commonly recommended speakers in that range such as, but no limited to the Primus P153, Cambridge S30, Energy RC30, Polk M30/40, and other entry level offerings?


Probably, but not certainly. I think you should not approach this as trying to "beat commercial designs" but rather to make (accurate) speakers you can live with. DIY's not a competition and speakers, while very objective IMO - are still very flawed at the low-end to the point where it's really just a question of what flaws you subjectively prefer.

Are you DIYing just to save money on entry level stuff? If so it's probably not worth the hassle.
Are you DIYing to have great speakers you will love that can run with high end stufF? I think that's more worthwhile. The law of diminishing returns is less prominent in DIY vs Commercial. At the low end you're limited by various factors. Johnny Richards nailed it.



> I believe DIY subs have an advantage over speakers. For instance, can you find anyone that sells a 7.0 cubic foot sub with 15" driver tuned to 15 Hz for $400? I think not. This is the DIY reality.


+1 Size/Aesthetics are deciding factors in design for commercial speakers/subs because they have to sell. Breaking away from that constraint is a big one.

Anyways, while all those flat pack kits are a great options, here's a speaker that I suggest:

http://meniscusaudio.com/mandolin-kit-pr-p-1244.html

Read through the documentation. Is that something that appeals to you?


----------



## CarinaTan (Mar 15, 2012)

Any tips on DIY speakers?


----------



## bigjbk (Jan 28, 2012)

A long time ago I built with the help of a buddy two 15
In bass bins(subs) and we with some research and planning built two subs that would perform admirably in any situation except a small room. The went deeper and carried the volumes we needed exceptionally. 
The key is planning. Take the time to learn
About your speakers limits , draft some designs and then practice on your materials. You'll be glad you did.

Now applying veneers, that's a different story...


----------



## johnnyrichards (May 3, 2011)

CarinaTan said:


> Any tips on DIY speakers?


If at all possible, audition before buying. Determine what you need, and determine a budget. Be honest with your woodworking and soldering skills. Ask questions of the original designer to find out why he did what he did, to find out placement, use with or without a subwoofer, etc.

Most (not all) DIY speakers are voiced for "accuracy", so if you have a lot of low quality albums in your collection a lot of DIY designs will leave you yearning for your Cerwin Vega 15" monkey coffins. Along the same lines, many DIY designers have an aversion to any kind of bump in the bass response. If you like all the aspects of a design but are nervous about bass response, contact the designer about alternative bass alignments.

Stick with "proven" designs with good documentation, especially about the compromise process. Remember that there is no such thing as a "no compromise" design, a good designer will cut the right corners and be capable of explaining himself in basic, laymens terms. If a design is published with information such as "I wanted to build a pair of speakers, look how pretty they are", then chances are very little thought went into the process. 

Or, do what I did and spend enough money learning DIY to buy a pair of Revel and have fun! Still have not built anything close to the quality of even the cheaper Revel, but I have learned a TON in the process. 

If you want to take the plunge and "Design It Yourself", here are a couple things I have written to put a little more perspective on DIY:

Advice for "newbies"

The above is a page I have on my site, and while it offers very little in the way of technical advice, there are a lot of things in there about some of the frustrations and other petty non-sense inherent in the hobby.

"The Budget Conscious Designer"

The above is kind of a synopsis on my design process, some of the compromises I will make, stuff like that.


----------



## tshifrin (Nov 24, 2011)

Thanks for those articles, Johnny Richards, and for taking the time to formalize those thoughts. As I move further into this fun DIY speaker building stuff, I'll keep your advice in mind.
I'll add one thought from my experience: this stuff sure is addictive! (It's all good...)

Tom


----------



## johnnyrichards (May 3, 2011)

Yep, like crack for the ears


----------



## Oktyabr (Jan 31, 2012)

Good thread with a lot of valuable input!

I'll second what several have said in that trying to get a higher value speaker from DIY than from a good "entry level" commercial build is very difficult to do. Take the aforementioned Infinity Primus for example, a speaker(s) that I have first hand experience with and one of my all-time favorites (cost no object). Seems that Stereophile liked them pretty well too! Mass produced, CNC'd cabs of MDF, vinyl veneers, drivers and crossover components bought in large quantities to save on unit cost, cheap grills with flimsy mounting pegs... No, I couldn't build an equivalent speaker to say, the Primus 365 tower for less money. But would I want to? Hey, if I'm doing it myself why not use heavier/thicker material to reduce cabinet resonances that the Primus line are occasionally criticized for (cha-CHING! +$$$$). Cheap non-polarized caps? Noooo... how about low tolerance Solen or Erse or Clarity, that might cost more than the rest of the speaker combined? Yup, more money. Real wood veneer? Absolutely! And while I'm at it how about gold plated binding posts, some nice carpet spikes and high quality internal wiring? Well, all of a sudden my Primus 365 knock-off costs at least twice as much as the one on sale from (insert online seller here).

Now on the flip side of that coin you very well might get 95% of the performance of a high end boutique speaker for a fraction of the cost. Google Jamo Reference DIY sometime. The Jamo R909 cost $7500... on sale. Could you build a pair that looked somewhat similar and had the same basic driver configuration for thousands of dollars less? Absolutely! In fact there are many people that have done, or are currently working on, exactly that same DIY project. Same can be said for something similar to the Linkwitz Orion, or Nao Note, both are quite spendy purchased "complete" but both also serve the DIY community by offering a lot of technical data, plans for less expensive versions, and partial DIY like flatpacks. I know of one guy that built a sort of Orion hybrid that he liked well enough to sell off his Wilson Audio Watt's ($5000+), and I'm fairly certain he didn't spend anywhere close to even half that amount to do so.

Last but not least you can't discount wood! My first three builds of DIY speakers were all "full range" models based on a single pair of drivers I have on hand. I've spent countless hours and at least a few hundred dollars in materials to basically make three different homes from one pair of drivers. The wife rolls her eyes every time she walks by a pair of "the silent ones".

Tools too, can be purchased used! In the last year, from careful garage sale hunting and a little craigslist, I've bought a 10" table saw, two routers, two skilsaws, a planer, an air compressor, a nail gun, and a belt sander for less than $500. Oh, and I think my clamp collection is up around 30 now as well, all purchased used.


----------



## Jstslamd (Nov 30, 2010)

I wish I had good garage sales like that in jersey. Nothing but junk if you can even find these sales.


----------



## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

Thanks for straight talk post Oktyabr. I have looked at CL a few times but still am not comfortable enough to know what tools are good and what would be worth the cost new. I agree with your analysis of budget offerings being hard to beat because of economy of scale and assembly lines. Unfortunately for me at the moment, I think I am in the gray range between budget and just starting to see value.

The more I look into all of this, the better grasp I have of design compromises. Now that I have spent some time researching, all of the marketing speak, plastic 4" enclosures and huge wattage power speakers just make me shake my head. Also, I must be wired differently because when I am about to spend hundreds of dollars, I first check around other stores and sites to find out what is available; I do not just buy what the salesman tells me is good or buy based on specs I can't explain to someone else.

Jstslamad,

I am with you on the lack of finds. Many of the used products I come across theatre/research/power/dynamics/sound (combine any audio terms) white van speakers. That or people who think best buy MSRP is a hard rule and used is 10% of MSRP firm.


----------



## Oktyabr (Jan 31, 2012)

You guys on the East Coast are in prime "vintage" territory. Some of the best speakers of the 70's and 80's were (and in some case still are) built there. Acoustic Research, Snell, Advent, KLH, Dahlquist, and more. The last couple of pair of used vintage Snell I was after were all "living" not 300 miles from where they were built and shipping to my side of the country (with proper packaging) more than doubled the price. Cheap power tools on the left side, maybe, but you guys can listen to more classic speakers for sale in a single day than I can in a typical year here.


----------



## Oktyabr (Jan 31, 2012)

Sphinx, you know you can always just do something open baffle. Most lumber yards can get you the cuts you need to a close enough tolerance... a jigsaw for cutting holes, a pencil, and some good wood glue and all you need then is the drivers!

Not the perfect match for many rooms and the cosmetics are sometimes just tolerable but for bang-for-buck in a just getting your toes wet DIY sort of way it doesn't get much simpler than a single, full range driver stuck in a flat piece of wood. :bigsmile:

That's actually my next project. A spin off of MJK's Goldwood 18" woofer in an H-frame with a full ranger in a small baffle up above it. Super simple to get going with and the reviews have all been good enough that I just had to see what all the fuss was about.


----------



## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

I need to work on my skills with a circular saw before I get too crazy. I cut some shelves out of particle board this weekend and was off +/- 1/8" in some places.

Any advice on how to secure your wood that you cut to counteract the torque from the saw?

Any advice on how to create/which to buy for a guide for making longer straight cuts?


----------



## Oktyabr (Jan 31, 2012)

Sphinx said:


> I need to work on my skills with a circular saw before I get too crazy. I cut some shelves out of particle board this weekend and was off +/- 1/8" in some places.
> 
> Any advice on how to secure your wood that you cut to counteract the torque from the saw?
> 
> Any advice on how to create/which to buy for a guide for making longer straight cuts?


Most lumber yards can sell you an aluminum guide. I bought one that comes in two interlocking halves which add up to a full 8" (96") when fastened together. Pretty cheap way to guarantee a straight cut, even over full sheets. Part of the biggest problem with circular "skilsaws" (maybe called that because it takes a while to develop the skill needed to use it well?) is that you get what you pay for. A cheap one with a very flimsy "foot", the part that rides against a guide, is that they are very sensitive to mistreatment and can come out of alignment very easily. If you drop it on the floor once, for instance, it's probably not going to saw very true against a guide anymore. You can double check it with a tape measure, just measure the front of the blade to the edge of the shoe and compare to the same measurement from the backside of the blade. 

Getting over torque is where nothing is better than a little practice. Take your time, let the teeth cut the wood, don't try to push it into the cut too much. I think I also find a good worm-drive skilsaw a little easier to work with and thus easier to "freehand" cut (without a guide) accurately. One with a laser can be even better and for not much more money but again, it's one of those things that's sensitive to tossing around or dropping on the floor.

Most of all spend a few dollars on a really good blade. Something with carbide teeth and "fine cut" will turn out the nicest edges but the "fine cut" can also flex more than a rougher cut blade and start turning away from the line you want to cut. Practice, practice, and more practice... or buy a good table saw.

I will usually either have the lumber yard cut down a 4x8 into more manageable size or I'll only use a skilsaw to get the sheets cutdown at home into something small enough that I can control them easily on my table saw... in these cases +/- 1/8" is perfectly acceptable, at least for me.

Another tip! Google sketchup or similar software is a real aid in making the most of your sheets. You can easily use it to make up a "cut sheet" to maximize your wood usage. Here is an example of one I did for my current project:


----------



## Sphinx (Feb 29, 2012)

Your sketch does not include the portion of the wood that is chewed up and lost. Do you normally account for that or ignore it?

I will have to look into a guide. And a Tsquare.


----------



## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

The used route to get tools is an excellent one. I picked up a used Dewalt 621 plunge router and love it for cutting the driver cutouts since it has integrated dust collection which is EXTREMELY useful especially with MDF. I wound up finding a used Dewalt DW616PK  for a killer price and picked that up as well since the plunge base also has integrated dust collection and have then both mounted on to separate circle jigs for large and small cutouts. I have had both for a few years now and they both work excellent even though they were both used. 

You can get killer deals on used tools but try and only stay with the good brands like Dewalt, Makita, Milwaukee and the like, maybe you will get lucky and even find some Festool.......drool. The higher end tool lines tend to make tools that last so that is why I don't have a problem buying them used. I have even bought some used tools off of ebay and have had excellent results.


----------



## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

Hitachi and Bosch are also excellent Mfg's of tools I forgot to bring up. I know some will say Hitachi is at the lower end but I have had 3 tools by them and they are all excellent and have never gave me any problem whatsoever. 

Try buying some clamps used as well. I like the older Jet brand clamps with the Sumo Grip handles which make it easier to get a hold of. The were some older Columbia brand clamps that also had Sumo Grip and they have to be made by the same company as aside from color they are built the same.

I got lucky with clamps, found an auction on ebay for about 30 clamps, all new with tags for about $140. The clamps were all Jet, about 3 Irwin and about 3 Columbia but they were the Columbia clamps that are virtually identical to the Jet clamps. I actually asked my friend if they needed some clamps as the price was really cheap but luckily they all declined. I have actually used all of those clamps on projects which I never thought would happen and have even added more since that time.


----------



## Oktyabr (Jan 31, 2012)

Sphinx said:


> Your sketch does not include the portion of the wood that is chewed up and lost. Do you normally account for that or ignore it?
> 
> I will have to look into a guide. And a Tsquare.


Yes, I account for it. It's part of planning the cut sheet. In this case I cut from the bottom of the sheet upwards, passing on that loss (about 1/8") to the remainder each time. Each lateral cut across the width of the sheet is at an accurate measurement. I could have just as easily planned on 18" top baffles and left a "dead zone" of about a 1/2" at the top of the sheet but went this way instead. This should have given me those top panels, indicated as 18 1/2", an actual size of just over 18", which I would have been fine with, but in actuality the sheet I bought was oversized about 1/4" in each dimension as well.

Is there a way to get Sketchup (the software I used) to actually compensate for a given line thickness, like the thickness of the cut? I don't know but it might be handy.

This is one of the places a table saw, or a VERY good clamp and guide system for a skilsaw is worth the extra investment. In the case of the example I've provided I always do my lateral cuts, across the sheet first. Now I've got to make six more cuts to section out the bottom portion at approximately (within 1/8") 16" wide, each. Once you have the table saw set for 16" (more or less, depending on your accounting for the saw blade and the actual size of the sheet) I then do ALL my 16" wide cuts so they are all exactly the same. If one is +/- 1/8", they all are... exactly the same. In an flat, open baffle, exact precision isn't all that essential. Getting four sides to a box to match a perfect 20 in.sq. baffle that goes inside those walls, like the "H-frame"s I'm building, or building any other conventional box will usually require if not perfect precision pretty close to it...

With practice and patience (remember, measure twice, cut once! And allow for the blade.) you can get cabinets down easily to 1/16" precision and a little sanding, a planer, or a flush cut router bit can square up even that.

Oh, and on the topic of clamps!!! The "squeeze grip" style that you will see more often than not these days are a convenience, not a superior design. Especially if you are using any sort of stock that might have a bit of a warp in it, or one of your long cuts wasn't quite perfect, the old fashioned screw clamps and some great wood glue can make your project much straighter looking than it might otherwise have been. The squeeze clamps are just too tough ("tough" is relative, in this case I'm 240lbs and do heavy construction for a living) to get that much pressure on and after I had one fail in the middle of the night, ruining one of my glue runs, I've started to favor the old screw style much more.


----------



## Oktyabr (Jan 31, 2012)

I also want to note that I personally prefer working with birch ply vs. MDF. I know there are reasons for using MDF but unless the gains are really there, for a particular design, I don't see the value. It costs as much as the birch ply I buy, is rarely in stock, and the dust can be a real nightmare, even with a shop vac and a dust collection system. 

On the topic of ply, the "shop" grade birch ply I buy typically has one "good" side and one "not so good" side. This is in reference to the quality of the outer most ply, basically a veneer. If you go shopping for birch ply be sure you make a note of if it is one sided or two and if it is one sided be sure you understand the right way to saw it (depends on the saw but usually the blade should cut *down* into the "good" side) to keep a clean edge. I also make sure to load and store my "one sided" ply always with preserving the good side as much as possible and preventing scuff marks, scratches, etc. Before I cut up a sheet I also make sure I label the parts by marking them on the "not so good" side.


----------



## Jstslamd (Nov 30, 2010)

You can simply clap your wood to whatever you have it sitting on and set your blade depth so that your not cutting far through whatever that may be. As far as a straight edge you can buy a simple aluminum straight edge and c-clamp set from home depot for right around 20 bucks. They are worth their weight in gold.


----------

