# Looking for suggestion on surrounds



## wbroshea (Oct 9, 2012)

I am looking for some suggestions on a project that has only taken form in my head so far. I currently have Klipsch RF-83s and the RC-64 as my front sound stage. I recently preordered two of the 18" Stereo Integrity Subs. I am going to shortly be building enclosures for those two subs and will have some leftover MDF. So I thought why not really tick the wife off and build some surround speakers with the leftover MDF. :T 

I am looking for suggestions on what drivers to use for surrounds and of course then the crossover. My initial thought is to make a three way design (im sure it is overkill but it would be fun) using some drivers I found on parts-express. I would use the Dayton DC28f tweeter, the visaton FRS8 3" midrange (I also liked the response curve of the tang band w3-1053sc and of course the price) and the visaton w170s 6.5" woofer. I am absolutely certain there are better drivers out there but I am trying to go the best bang for your buck route. My initial idea was a 3-way crossover at 4000hz and 500hz. 

I am open to all ideas including driver selection, driver sizes, better values, whether the drivers would work together, crossover points, whether it should even be a three way speaker, just about anything you can think of. The beast of crossover design will come after I have nailed down the driver(s) (I guess I could even do one of those full range drivers and use it as a single driver for the surrounds, not even really sure if that would work). Thanks to any help you can provide.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

wbroshea said:


> So I thought why not really tick the wife off and build some surround speakers with the leftover MDF. :T


I can't offer much advice on the speaker drivers, but this part of your plan sounds pretty risky :gulp:. Just convince her you're saving money by using scrap material :whistling:


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Dayton has some good driver's I've used them several times and have yet to be disapointed. As far as designs go id stick with a simple 2-way system. If your familiar with building crossovers I'd go that route otherwise the Dayton ones aren't bad either. :T


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## wbroshea (Oct 9, 2012)

Which Dayton series would you recommend? I looked at the reference series but with mid and woofer each being $10-20 more and that reference tweeter being $30 more, I just wasn't sure it was worth it. Although if I go with a two system it would save on drivers not to mention the crossover. In a two system which driver (tweeter, mid, or woofer) does one usually eliminate? 

Oh and I can guarantee it is a very risky plan from the wife perspective. She'll be ticked, listen to them and say they make no difference, then a year later after using them she will think of them as indispensable. That's how it was with HDTV, DSLR camera and countless other tech toys of mine.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I really think there Referance line is worth it but you would also be happy with the regular lineup. As far as what to eliminate would be the midrange. Also keep an I on the sensitivity ratings as well as frequency response, you want the drivers to mesh well.:T


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

3-Ways are definitely overkill for use as surround, I would also say that Dayton Reference are overkill for surrounds unless budget is not important.

Have you designed a passive crossover before and/or do you have any idea what you are doing besides just picking out drivers? You are more or less on the right track with crossover points, the midrange in a 3-way should cover three octaves which your 500/1k/4k would.


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## wbroshea (Oct 9, 2012)

Well I fully admit that I am new to this and so no I have never built a passive crossover. The physical wiring of the circuit should be no problem as I have experience in electronics (albeit mass spectrometers, but connecting the physical parts and soldering shouldn't be to big of a deal). However, determining the appropriate size of the caps and inductors is another matter. I have used the calculators i found online for the three way, however i would prefer to use some of the free software online such as passive crossover designer. The problem is it wants the response and impedance data which I can't find for the original drivers that I had chosen. Any idea where I would find those? Maybe ask the company since they have the response curves surely they have the raw data. 

Anyhow, my understanding was that all of the crossover discussion should come after I have determined my drivers so that the crossover would be tailored to my specific drivers. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong or if anyone knows where to get the raw response data I would need for the drivers. Oh and not to mention any more driver suggestions. 

Thanks for all the responses so far. I really appreciate it.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

> Anyhow, my understanding was that all of the crossover discussion should come after I have determined my drivers


Well, yes and no. The thing is - the driver selection itself _is_ a major part of the crossover design because they're not separate entities. My advice is to build something that already has been designed. Designing a complete loudspeaker is not only a big investment in time, but also works best if you can measure the system yourself. Sims can only get you so far especially if you're not using reliable data. If you don't want to buy the equipment, then don't try to design it yourself. Just my opinion, YMMV.

BTW I think this Piccolo Kit would make a very, very good pair of surround speakers. The low frequency, 4th order crossover ensures a wide vertical coverage and even power response, and the drivers are very very good. In a sealed box it should be right in with THX spec too.


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## wbroshea (Oct 9, 2012)

Thanks for the link. I had no idea that website even existed. The kits seem to be competitively priced as well. It actually has me thinking of selling my front stage to buy kits to make an entire matching system. I was leaning towards the statements. Might be interesting.

Out of curiosity, what equipment is needed to make my own measurements? A link to a good read on the subject would be great.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

wbroshea said:


> Thanks for the link. I had no idea that website even existed. The kits seem to be competitively priced as well. It actually has me thinking of selling my front stage to buy kits to make an entire matching system. I was leaning towards the statements. Might be interesting.


That would be pretty awesome! Statements + Statements Center up front with piccolo surrounds 



> Out of curiosity, what equipment is needed to make my own measurements? A link to a good read on the subject would be great.


A Microphone Preamp (IE M-Audio MobilePre) + A Calibrated Measurement Microphone (IE Cross Section Labs Dayton EMM-6) + Microphone stand
A woofer tester (IE Dayton DATS)
A laptop with a sufficiently quiet fan
Measurement software (Well, there's free stuff out there like ARTA)


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## wbroshea (Oct 9, 2012)

Ok. So I have decided to take the advice those in this forum and am looking for a surround kit where I can build the cabinet. The crossover designs for the kits are fare more complicated than I could ever come up with. I know complicated doesn't necessarily mean good, but it certainly means whoever designed it spent much more time with it than I am really willing to do, at least for now. I really like the piccolo which was already recommended, however in my never ending search to maximize my dollar, I have begun looking at all my options. My questions is what type of speaker would be appropriate for surrounds? Can I use an MTM or does it need to be an MT. What about dipole/bipole speakers, would those be better? I ask because I really like the rs722 pack from dayton or the MTM 7 from Occam. I know the dispersion may be a problem but maybe that can be solved by my positioning. If MT is the way to go, I dont think I have seen any that I like better than the Piccola.

Since that question probably varies based on their location in the house, I will fill you in. The speakers will be placed on a stand at ear level to the listening position, assuming that is best. The height can be varied and they will be approximately the same distance from the primary listening position as the mains and center. Which would put them anywhere from 6" to 2 feet from the wall depending on the ideal location of the surrounds in a 5.1 system. I have seen some say exactly left and right of the listener and I have seen 15 degree angle behind the listener. I will just have a listen and decide what I like best I guess. And of course don't forget. This room is wide open, so I have no real hope to "fill" it. Just want it to sound decent. Thanks for any opinions.


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