# Which Drivers?



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

If it happens or not, its yet to be seen. However, if I dive into building my own loudspeaker, what dictates power handling on each individual driver? I am planning on building a 4 ohm 3 way speaker that will be very dynamic from the highs to the lows (30-40 hz).

And yes I still have plenty more questions and research.


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## mechman (Feb 8, 2007)

bump


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

Audiodreamer said:


> , what dictates power handling on each individual driver? I am planning on building a 4 ohm 3 way speaker


`
How loud you plan to play your system basically determines how many watts each driver will need to handle.
In general, your woofer wattage will determine how much power your mid range and tweeter will need to handle. The exception is that the midrange and tweeter will be protected by the x-over and don't need the same wattage rating as the woofer.
In other words, a 100 watt woofer needs only a 50 watt mid range and a 25 watt tweeter.
Your selection of drivers is VERY important at this stage of planning. There must be a close relationship between the spl levels and also the frequency response curves of each driver.
How did you decide on 4 ohms for the system?


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## maxserg (Dec 11, 2008)

A question that means that you have alot to learn a bout speakers:doh:

Ohms are not a target, (matching efficiency/freq response/impedance/dispersion at x-over frequency/break-up/budget/passive vs active/room size/accoustic treatment/music genres or music only or cinema or both/swubs???/listening distance/listening level((DB)), the question could be more detailed). Please define more your target.:blink:

my 2 cents


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

maxserg said:


> A question that means that you have alot to learn a bout speakers:doh:
> 
> Ohms are not a target, (matching efficiency/freq response/impedance/dispersion at x-over frequency/break-up/budget/passive vs active/room size/accoustic treatment/music genres or music only or cinema or both/swubs???/listening distance/listening level((DB)), the question could be more detailed). Please define more your target.:blink:
> 
> my 2 cents


You'd be right, if I new it all, or everything I 
needed to know I am quite sure I would not have started the original thread. 

It is all about gaining knowledge and with the knowledge an understanding, and hopefully I would have some speaker wisdom. 


So as I said it might not happen, but where there is a will there is a way. 

I do hope and desire to learn those things that are relevant to a DIY loudspeaker.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

To me I think that a great speaker is going to be great regardless of what information is being pushed to it. 

If I was buying a speaker and sounded good with rock, but not jazz, then why?? 

So the goal would be for music, because that to me is where I think the greater diversity of sound may be. 

Frequency for music, I have heard doesn't get much lower than about 30-40hz, other than maybe a pipe organ. What's the highest freq that people claim they hear?

Most of the time no more than 80-90 db, but there may be those occasions that you want it louder.


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## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

Audiodreamer said:


> Most of the time no more than 80-90 db, but there may be those occasions that you want it louder.


`
Good, 80-90 db brings you to the 6.5 to 8 inch woofer group area and there are MANY available brands. You can buy cheap $20 or expensive $200-$500.
This 6.5 to 8 inch size woofer has limitations in the lower register. Most will be limited to around 60-70Hz.
You can put 2 woofers in one box in an "Appolito" alignment and get more volume if you need it. That alignment puts the tweeter between the two woofers in a special way. The Appolito advantage is one of greater control of "phase" and "distortion". There are several actual Appolito kits available. 
A 6.5 to 8 inch woofer will usually have useable frequency response into the 1500Hz area or higher. That allows for a cross over with many tweeters and a smooth response for both with the right X-over circuit.
There are many places to buy speakers both woofers and tweeters (drivers). Two sponsors on this site that have a good selection are Parts Express and Madisound.
Audiologists tell us we can hear 20-20,000Hz when we're young. If you've been around loud noises or long sustained noises you probably can't hear to 20,000Hz any longer. Your ability to hear high frequency deteriorates with age also. Many enthusiasts still think they can hear to 20,000Hz, they haven't tested themselves lately. My 9 year old grandson was able to hear 20,000hz last summer when I tested him, my upper limit had dropped to 10,000Hz. I'm 70.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

maxserg said:


> A question that means that you have alot to learn a bout speakers:doh:
> 
> Ohms are not a target, (matching efficiency/freq response/impedance/dispersion at x-over frequency/break-up/budget/passive vs active/room size/accoustic treatment/music genres or music only or cinema or both/swubs???/listening distance/listening level((DB)), the question could be more detailed). Please define more your target.:blink:
> 
> my 2 cents


To add, budget shouldn't be an issue, because if its right, price wouldn't stand in the way, even if it takes longer to accomplish. 

Dispersion??? Whatever it takes to have tonal clarity. 

Distance- right now about 12'

Very efficient and flat throughout freq range of 30- 30k. 

Passive or active? I don't know. 

Somewhere between 100 sq ft and 500 sq ft.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I'm back! I still, because of my nature, want to build my own loudspeaker. Since I have only recently DIY'ed my subs, I have no frame of reference, for all things involved.

I do know that I would like these to disperse as uniformly as possible at all frequencies. 

For those that have done this or have a wealth of knowledge, I guess I might be dependent on you.

When selecting drivers, will I be fine when selecting drivers that the, sensitivity level be as high as possible (how important?) and as close as possible to each other?

I think that I know when selecting drivers, that I need to choose a midrange that will (for a 3-way system), that will have a low end around 500hz and a high end around 2k. Maybe right maybe wrong. If I am right then my tweeter should have a low end a little less than 2k. Inverse for the woofer.

With the hopeful aid of some software will build the crossovers. I have been doing research, but still have questions.

Would there be any benefit to having dual tweeters, and midrange?
If so how would they be wired, series or parallel?
Would tweeter, and mid, or set of need their own enclosure within the speaker cabinet?

Cabinet design, is another issue I am thinking if I can muster up, I would be attempting a trapezoidal design.

These speakers would be primarily for musical enjoyment, although maybe used for all. 
With music in mind I definitely want to have good low end, but like I said earlier uniform dispersion across all frequencies.

I know that there are plenty of issues, and as anyone chimes in I am sure they will be brought out.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

So many ways to go about this. First off how big of a cabinet do you want for your L/R speaker?

I have had many 2/3ways and they all varied from small to large. I would suggest deciding your limitations and going from there. I would put most of my money in the midrange driver if designing a 3way.

And being your first build why are you wanting a 3way? Why not a 2 way?


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

To answer the first. My current footprint is 8" x 11" 35" tall. I am envisioning no more than 12 wide, 12 deep 48 tall. 

My current L/R, being def tech bp6's are 2 way. I don't feel the bass is where I would like it to be. If I can get the sound I want from a 2 way then that's the way to go, otherwise a 3 way. 

I like my rock music, and anything else that entertains me. Developing a trend for blues rock


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

You could always build a design that is already made, such as the SEOS Fusion10, and just assemble. Only thing you need to do is glue together and screw in drivers. But that is about 14.5" wide. It would provide PLENTY of SPL but may lack the bass you want. I say may though because I like lots of bass. If you have a sub then you would be plenty happy with these speakers.

Or you could try and design your own. If you do this then you would have to go active crossover. Which then means you need to have more amp channels to power the speakers. SO if you had a 3 way you would need 3 channels from an amp for one speaker. The above suggestion has a passive crossover and you could just use an AVR or 2 channel receiver.

There are a LOT of designs out their that are easy to build. You just buy the package of parts and assemble. With your width you are limited to a 10". But a 10 will still have some authority and punch. And if you want to spend more and doing something that has LOTS of impact then look at GR Research.

Or design your own and slowly get what you want. 2way design with built in 10" subs. Or a 2.5 way with extra 10's for kick. Hard to suggest where to start for you.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I do have 2 DIY subs. They IMO seem to do what I want as far as movies are concerned, but again IMO are not as great for music. Maybe they are not thoroughly broke in.

Nevertheless, I know there are differences in 2, 2.5, and 3 way. I also know it is a gamble when building ones own, but I could luck out and get what I want.

My question would be If I was to build a 3 way and not a 2.5, why would I have to go active, versus passive xo?

I see commercially available speakers that are 3 way design, seem to be passive. 

When I say good bass, I would hope for a comfortable 40 hz


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Building your very own design can be very difficult to get the crossover correct the first time. It is easier to have an active crossover where you can dial in where it sounds best. Then adjust phase and other parameters if needed. When you build a passive crossover you will have to do a LOT of work to be able to do this.

SO you can go 2 or 3 way and have passive crossovers. If you build another proven design then passive works perfectly. Having subs also makes things easier. Just build a full range design that is ported around 45-60hz. That way you will be able to run full range, not make the 10" work hard and have plenty of headroom.

And what subs do you have?


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I have the SI 15 d4. I maybe understating them just a bit. I am sure I have plenty of bass when listening to music. It is probably me being naive enough to think that everything I listen to these 2 almost 3' x 2' x 2' cabinets should really be sounding off. 

I don't have any test equipment, so I don't really know what they are doing. 

I know from other threads, that when it comes to xo's, that it is very time consuming. 

I just know that with my current definitive bp-6's are okay, and according to a friend that has a lot of money tied up in audio, says for the money again for the money in his opinion are about the best. 
More money, there are better speakers. 

I want better for less or the same money. 

As with the subs, when I would check out a local retailer of B&W's, I believe what I built myself, is way better than what I heard there and less money. 

These definitive a are supposed to be pretty efficient. I do have a fairly large space to fill. I do feel as though I have to crank them up to 1/2 to 3/4 before they start sounding a little better. 
However I am wanting something a little brighter like some Focal's, that I have heard, but without sacrificing in the lower freq's. 

Hence the desire to build my own.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Any of the SEOS 10" designs and other designs out there have PLENTY of SPL. And used to own a pair of DT BP's. I would have to say that all of my designs that I have thrown together have sounded better to me. I am only comparing price of the BP's verse a budget for DIY. I used all active crossovers.

But most designs out there have a passive crossover you can build or buy. For music I really like ribbons. I like directivity for HT but CD's could work great for you or other. Just a matter of preference.

For subs I like to have my subs in a slightly higher q alignment. Better for music but not HT. But when using an L/T circuit you can have best of both worlds.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

When you said you like ribbons, were you referring to the tweeters?


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## dougc (Dec 19, 2009)

In regards to the SEOS waveguide designs, I am building this one using AE Speakers 12" mid-bass driver and the SEOS12/dna360. I have not heard nearly as many speakers as some of the guys on the forum, but I have heard my share. This design is my favorite so far.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

Where should I be looking for these and other speaker kits?


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Doug c had a link to his. There are lots of places for designs. It is a matter of which way you would like to go.

And yes I love ribbon tweeters. My favorite was the Beyma TPL-150. If I had it in a horn I would not have gotten rid of it. BUT I have other projects coming up soon.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I have never heard anything with the ribbon tweeters. But with what I have read about them, makes me want to do a build using them. Where should I be looking for this type of kit?

Regardless of what tweeters I actually use, I will be looking for a build with passive xo's. 

Also, will these kits coming with plans for cabinets? Since I have built the subs, I want to match the wood and staining. 

What's the easiest way to post pictures?


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

You can upload pictures directly to HTS or use another hosting site. I will have to look more into a single kit for the ribbons. I used my ribbons in a DIY from scratch build. The SEOS designs that Doug C is building have CNC baffles in the kits. Pretty much glue together wire and your done. Other kits are similar or require you to build a cabinet, But matching other finishes should not be hard.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

Okay, I've got some more questions. 

If I am going to use a software program to help design crossovers, if any will be needed, what special tools should I have for testing?

When selecting drivers as far as the parameters are concerned should the drivers be close to each other?

As far as the enclosure is concerned ( and the drivers ), what are the rules as far as driver placement, ie; if an MTM, distance between drivers, and distance from top to first driver? 
Should mid drivers be enclosed within enclosure, or even the tweeter?
What would determine if a tweeter is placed off center?

I am sure, as time moves forward, I will have more ????


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

You might jump over to PARTS EXPRESS.com (a Home Theater Shack sponsor) and look at MOREL woofers and mid range and definately go with the DAYTON PT2-C8 planar tweeter.... this is my latest project with those speakers and they also have DAYTON crossovers pre built as well ....
If you want to see the install its here

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-speakers/70542-home-theater-build-1-a.html


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

First,I will say these look awesome! I currently have speakers, and they are fine. I feel that I can have something better, and that, for the money it would be better to DIY. No I have never done this, but since I have speakers, I could hold out, if I struggled getting the crossovers right. No risk, no reward.

I still want to do a 3 way design, and I would also hopefully be including a center channel.

So I have many questions, and I think there are those with the knowledge to answer. Please check out post # 23.

I have been browsing PE and based on the last post I do believe this is the tweeter I would want to use.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pt2c-8-planar-tweeter--275-085

I have selected a mid-range. I am curious if this is a good brand and, if so, is it a good choice?
http://www.parts-express.com/goldwood-gm-85-8-heavy-duty-5-1-4-sealed-back-midrange-8-ohm--280-115

Now when it comes to a woofer, I am not so sure. I am basing things on efficiency and impedance. I have been looking at woofers that have had high power handling. These will be going in an enclosure that I am guessing around 48-54" tall and no more than 12 wide and deep. Most likely will be ported.

I am thinking about MTMW and possibly MTTMW.

Anyhow, thanks to all for your input and good intentions to talk me out of doing a 3 way design, call me glutton for punishment if I cant pull it off.

Also, I hope everyone can have a better and brighter 2014, over 2013!


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I had to take a second look at that mid range. I seen this one. FaitalPRO 6FE100 6" Professional Midrange Midbass Woofer 8 Ohm Brand:FaitalPRO| Model: 6FE100 

Would this be a better choice?

Edit: I am not sure what was up with that link. I'll try this one.

http://www.parts-express.com/faitalpro-6fe100-6-professional-midrange-midbass-woofer-8-ohm--294-1150


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

Audiodreamer said:


> I had to take a second look at that mid range. I seen this one. FaitalPRO 6FE100 6" Professional Midrange Midbass Woofer 8 Ohm Brand:FaitalPRO| Model: 6FE100
> 
> Would this be a better choice?
> 
> ...



Definately no on the Goldwood - The FatalPro also looks very cheap - point of reference are the connections terminals with that very cheap rivet point... Look at Usher , Morel , Dayton for midrange and woofers ...


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## sparkky1 (Feb 26, 2013)

What are the dimensions of the room, is it open to other areas or dedicated room ?


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

It is not dedicated. The room is just under 24' long x 18' deep. It has a cathedral ceiling to 12'. My setup is almost centered on the 24' span. The "sweet spot" is roughly 12' out, with about 6' behind. The left side opens up to the dining room. The 6' behind is basically an open entry hall from one end of house, to the other.


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## sparkky1 (Feb 26, 2013)

That's not a very small room with the ceiling, are you sure you could only spare 12" in width for the enclosures ? Why are you looking at 6" woofers for your LF mids ?


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

He did mention MTMW. SO he could use an alignment like that with 6" mids and a 10" for the lower end. More than likely I would use most of the volume of the cabinet for the 10".

So many choices. Were these going to be mainly for music?

Are you trying to keep costs very low?

I also really like the Fountek Neo ribbons. PHL or BC 6" mids, and a pair of 8's or single 10" from countless OEM's would work. I would spend most of my budget on the mid and tweeter. The lows can be done by so many budget friendly companies.

If you can tell us what you want your speaker to look like then we can give you some suggestions.

Also what AVR or receiver do you have? Does it have auto room eq?


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

Mainly, I will want these for music. I have the onkyo 809. Great for music, is the main thing. If i use for home theater, also, then so be it. When it comes to movies, I am more interested in the LFE's.

After a lot of info that has been given my way, If understand it all, I don't necessarily need a speaker that could handle 400 watts. Even If it is achievable (by me) and I had that much amplification and was going drive those speakers 100% for long periods, I am sure my hearing would not make it. If that doesn't make sense to anyone else, I think it does to me.

I have been doing a lot of research. I needed to know what all of these speaker parameters mean. Like what does the Qes and Qms mean, and what the numbers mean. I found that. 

Now I also know that even if I know all that I could possibly know, about speaker building, and I use a PCD software, and a box modeling program, and had the best drivers, that could be had, more than likely my attempt a 3 way build or even a 2 way, will probably be dismal.

I am torn, because, I really want to go with my own design, but at the same time, I want to have success. 
I don't necessarily know that I want to make a career out of building speakers.
I also, don't mind investing my time, into a project such as this either. 

I have seen some builds, and thought okay, this is the one, but I am just not that excited about doing what someone else has done.

I am obviously not an engineer, and I know that there is a boat load of info, and knowledge in speaker building.
I am a DIY'er. Can it really be that if I use the above programs, and ask a lot of questions before and during a build, that, I can have a speaker, that even if not perfect, will still sound decent and play loud??


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Wattage doesn't mean anything. 400watts to a speaker with 83db efficiency verse a 95db is a huge difference.

DIY is always fun if you have the patience. If not then build a design that is already done. I have built quite a few designs and made a few of my own. I was happier with my own designs, although I spent a LOT more on the components because it was my design. And I wanted to have success.

Having subs already makes the low end easier to achieve. SO MTM would work without the woofer below. Or if you want you can just use true midranges for your MTM sealed and then add the woofer section.

My design goals have changed each time I have heard a design. After failing and succeeding in some of my designs I have finally decided on what I like and what I don't. 

For simplicity of crossover you can always just apply simple Hpass and low passes on each component and then listen. You can use your receiver to help with EQ, and then listen again. Use your ears and then REW and you will be able to have success with some patience. Reliable components are key and then configuring it so they work best in their correct pass band.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

When choosing a tweeter, would you look for one that had an Fs below the rated response?
Or is that a big issue.

I am selecting some drivers, to do mock up and see how things play out in a crossover design software. In your opinion, is there one software over another that is easier over another, or one that is more accurate over another?


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

Also, I know that if I want to use a ribbon, it would cross really high. What is your experience, and for music,can it be said that a dome tweeter is better than a ribbon, or vice versa? Or is it that there is just a difference, and you either like it or you don't?


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Some ribbons are large enough to cross lower. I crossed my Beyma at 1600hz roughly. I think any type of tweeter can work well for music. Just have to work with it. I like crssing things are the 1000-2000 range for some reason. Just my ears. I tend to be able to hear when things are crossed over higher. But that isn't ALWAYS the case. Just a lot of the time for me.

Software depends on design. I use HornResp and PCD for most of my designs. There are lots of other programs out there that can work but I just use these for now. I am a beginner at both and always ask a lot of questions.

I have gone through quite a few different drivers trying to decide on which ones I wanted. Same with subwoofers.

I only look at a few specs anymore and then just simulate. I tend to try everything and just see how it simulates. Then go from there. Simulation, budget and aesthetics are taken into account before my decisions. And yet they still don't always work out.

Certain types of music have made me change my designs over the years.


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## sparkky1 (Feb 26, 2013)

I think with an untreated room of that size and with all the resonating that will be going on you might look into waveguides such as the seos 12 paired with a DNA-360 Compression Driver, it will aid with off axis imaging tremendously.You could look at the PI midhorn flat pack kit with eminence delta 10 and with that combo you would be golden to about 250hz, if you use Wayne's horn, he would probably share his passive network with you for the mid/top at which point you would need an LF woofer to go lower as in your opening statement ( I am planning on building a 4 ohm 3 way speaker that will be very dynamic from the highs to the lows (30-40 hz) .For an LF woofer you could look at the jbl M115-8A 100.00 $ / 100watt should give you dynamic authority in a ported enclosure tuned to 45hz.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

sparkky1 said:


> I think with an untreated room of that size and with all the resonating that will be going on you might look into waveguides such as the seos 12 paired with a DNA-360 Compression Driver, it will aid with off axis imaging tremendously.You could look at the PI midhorn flat pack kit with eminence delta 10 and with that combo you would be golden to about 250hz, if you use Wayne's horn, he would probably share his passive network with you for the mid/top at which point you would need an LF woofer to go lower as in your opening statement ( I am planning on building a 4 ohm 3 way speaker that will be very dynamic from the highs to the lows (30-40 hz) .For an LF woofer you could look at the jbl M115-8A 100.00 $ / 100watt should give you dynamic authority in a ported enclosure tuned to 45hz.




While all those are good options we are trying to stick with a width of 12". With the Wayne mid your looking at closer to 24" and the JBL 15" is also to big.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I downloaded, David Ralph's WinPCD. it is a spin of Jeff bagbys. It seems to be compliant for me. I could not get Jeff's version to work for me. 

My problem is that, I am not sure how to input driver data. (FRD)

http://www.speakerdesign.net/


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## ksrigg (Dec 21, 2013)

It may have already been mentioned here, but Madisound will design, and build, the crossovers for you for a speaker which they sell. So, you can choose the drivers (and they will help you decide) and then they will test the speaker drivers, and design the enclosure and build the crodssover. Can't get much simpler that that. I recently had them do two designs for ome. One using the 6 1/2" Silver Flute mid bass and a Seas 27tdfc tweeter in an MTM configuration, and the other using a Fountek FW168 mid bass and a Fountek NeoCD2.0 ribbon tweeter. Simply gave them the baffle dimension I wanted to use, and they did the rest. There was a discussion with Josh at Madisound, and we changed from using the 4 ohm version of the SF in series and went with the 8 ohm version in parallel. He explained that the power sharing was more efficient doing this (which I had never heard before). There are so many great drivers out there, I want to try them all, but you can look at them and model the enclosure sizes and fs of the system and go from there. I also want to try the reed cone driver made by Vifa (I think it is) which is a 7" driver and used in a design on Madisound's site. They have it available as a kit at a very affordable price. Hope this helps and good luck.


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## xrk971 (Jan 5, 2014)

Have you considered a good full range driver covering 200 Hz to 20 kHz and helped by a woofer/sub from 40 hz to 200 Hz. This FAST (Full-range Assisted Subwoofer Technology) combination can sound very good and the imaging and sound stage cannot be beat by a multi-way as there is no crossover in the critical region where voices and spatial localization occurs. The full range assures automatic spatial, time, phase coherency. For certain genre's of music (classical and rock) where dynamic range and mid bass punch is more important than imaging and sound stage, a multi-way is better.


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## sparkky1 (Feb 26, 2013)

Mike, you don't have to go passive for your build if you feel like its going to hold you back from building what you really want.You could go active whether it be behringer DCX2496 or mini dsp or amps with dsp.


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## ksrigg (Dec 21, 2013)

You mention the fact that you want to use a ribbon tweeter. Parts Express currently has a Peavery ribbon tweeter for 79 dollars. It is pretty much a Fountek Neo CD2.0 from all the specs I can find. I have bought 16 of them so far, and have plans to build a line array using them. I have not decide on the mid bass driver I wil use yet. I also plan to build a two way system with a Fountec FW168 and the ribbon in each cabinet. I'll let my sub do the sub 50 hz region. I think it will be an awesome, all metal, all Fountek system. 

You will not beat 79 dollars for a TRUE ribbon tweeter of this caliber. I know where are much better ribbons out there, and there are far worse ones as well. I think the Peavey is a steal at this price.

I'm talking myself into buying another pair as I type...

Another mid bass driver to consider is the SEAS Prestige L18RNX/P (H1224) 7" Aluminum Cone Woofer. It costs a little over a hundred bucks but is one of a driver. I am using a pair of them in an MTM with a 27TFFC Seas tweeter and think it is one of the better speakers I have built. I have a crossover design if you are going passive. I am also going to build an MTM using the Silver Flute W17RC38-08 6-1/2" Wool Cone and the Seas 27TDFC tweeter. For under thirty dollars, I think this driver will be hard to beat. You can spend more, but where is your cost vs return on investment point? That is something I wrestle with constantly.

Let us know what you decide...


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## ksrigg (Dec 21, 2013)

I failed to mention one designer for whom I have the ultimate respect and his designs are free. Do a search for Zaph and you should find his site. He has some excellent designs available complete with cabinet plans, crossover plans, and just about everything you need to complete a build. You can not reach him by email however, and I totally understand that. He would probably do nothing but attempt to answer his mail. He has a relationship with Madisound, and has several of his designs there and they can be bought with all drivers and crossovers already assembled. In some cases, I think even the cabinets are available. One thing for sure, you will not go wrong buying one of his systems, or doing any one of his projects. Just make sure you build what you want. Don't expect a system using 3 inch drivers to be full range and hit 130db...

I think I have built three or four of his designs and they are all fabulous. IF you are going budget, his aluminum MTM design using MCM drivers are pretty unreal. I have had several people ask where the sub is, and I'm not using one in my garage. They sound WAY bigger than they are.. and this is one of his least expensive projects.


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## sparkky1 (Feb 26, 2013)

Give it a read and it might give you a better insight.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...designing-crossovers-without-measurement.html


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

sparkky1 said:


> Mike, you don't have to go passive for your build if you feel like its going to hold you back from building what you really want.You could go active whether it be behringer DCX2496 or mini dsp or amps with dsp.


I don't think I am so concerned with the crossover. It is the fact that of all this talk about baffle step diffraction, off axis response, and others, that I can't even think of right now.

My understanding from one who actually has several verified builds, is that you most likely are going to have an off axis response that is not as good as on axis. The idea is to keep it at a minimum.

"That any driver spacing will cause a null in response, at some frequency at some point off axis. The idea is to keep those nulls as far of axis as possible and cross to the next higher driver as soon as that drivers characteristics allow, to minimize these off axis issues."

All to say this is why to align drivers vertically, and not horizontally. (Which brings up that I believe, that I have read elsewhere that the center channel, would be better, if it were standing up, like the mains.)

Out of all of this, I think understand that these axis issues, can happen between, any two of the same drivers, or any two different drivers.

Now what I think I understand (there has been a lot of that) is that you want to keep the distance between a tweeter and a mid range as close as possible. And if you have an MTM, basically the same so that the distance, between the mids is as close as possible.

If this is correct and, I in fact do understand, then what more can be done about off axis response, in regard to driver layout, on the baffle, and crossover design?

If I am on point so far, then do we have the same issues, with all drivers? I.E. The woofer.

In regards to baffle diffraction. I could be wrong on this, but does this have to do with whether or not a driver is flush mount or recessed, in the baffle, and or the edges of the baffle should be rounded over?


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## sparkky1 (Feb 26, 2013)

Here's a good read for you to get started.
http://www.birotechnology.com/articles/VSTWLA.html


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

sparkky1 said:


> Here's a good read for you to get started.
> http://www.birotechnology.com/articles/VSTWLA.html


Definitely informational! The question is, how is the off axis response corrected? Is it to be corrected after a complete build, and testing to determine, what the issues are?

Would this keep you bound up, thinking, oh my gosh, what am I thinking wanting to do my own design?

For myself, there is a lot of info, out there, and with some of it, you have to be an engineer to understand wht is being said.

If anyone can help me, understand how and what info to put into the PCD program, I would appreciate.


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## sparkky1 (Feb 26, 2013)

Have a look at this.
audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/loudspeaker-measurement-standard/on-axis-frequency-response


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