# why not PVC ?????



## madmachinest (Aug 11, 2012)

I am planning on moving my system to a rack setup soon and I have been considering using PVC open slot wire duct to keep all the cables separate and organized.

I just read in another post Gregr stated

''Audio and Video interconnects are double and even triple and quadruple shielded but still I would not run these together in a PVC conduit but I would not use PVC anywhere near Audio/Video cables, its bad enough some manufacturers use PVC to cover wires. Polyethylene and Teflon are best choices. ''

QUESTION IS why not PVC????? This is what I plan on using https://www.electriduct.com/Electriduct-Open-Slot-Wire-Duct.html
If there is a reason I am not aware of it and I do not want to find out the hard way. Still have time to change plans


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

That's a new one on me and I have been an audio enthusiast for 50 years. I am not aware of any interaction between PVC and AV cables; in fact many quality AV cables have PVC jackets as he posted.

The only thing I am aware of is that PVC off-gasses chlorine when burned. But with so much more items in your home that also off-gas toxins when burned (furniture, carpet, etc.) the relatively small contribution of AV cables should not be significant.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

Apparently PVC can buildup static electricity, as long as the cables are shielded it shouldn't be a problem.


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## madmachinest (Aug 11, 2012)

I am aware of the potential for static electricity but it’s going into a metal rack and I plan on running a ground wire to the cabinet anyway. Amps are dead quiet now but I thought it would make sense and be easy insurance. 

I plan on running all the power lines on one side and all audio cables on the other so that should not cause any problems. 

I want to go to the rack because it will make wire management easier, allow more separation between units for cooling and I really like the look. Tired of moving the entertainment shelf every time I want to change something and the rat’s nest of wires back there is a real PITA. I like the concept of one power line and one bundle of speaker wires exiting the cabinet.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

It is the static that can be problematic, first off. All of the speaker wires and interconnects and power cables in one area is a caution to me. Each and every one generates an electro-magnetic field. Ok on its own and if cables cross at 90degrees still OK. PVC is not a stable compound it readily absorbs and discharges free electrons. Some will say "so what??" Well I have improved the quality of my Denon AVR and B&W DM303 speakers (15 years old) to a point where whoever hears my system is so preoccupied with the sound quality they inevitably drool on themselves. Even a Dr friend of mine with his big Maggies and Rotel amps who at first argued with me that the Toroid PS was all that mattered. The power that came before the transformer and/or toroid' were immaterial and the power after the fact was as good as it gets..., Well now he understands that catching a curing all of the little things before they add up to a big problem is only logical. 

PVC is a known problem actually a little more than a slight problem. There are some extruded aluminum kits available out there I just read about one the otherday here on HTS. Aluminum is a great choice. It is Non-magnetic and absorbs vibration very nicely. I bought a PC case made completely of Aluminum and the same equipment I was listening to @ maybe 25/30db is now 10 or so db almost inaudible.

Getting Vibrations out of your system is a big plus as well. Anchoring speakers, amps, etc etc..., try it you'll like it. It all adds up real quick.

Some of the big cautions for me are now keeping wires from PVC, keeping wires off the carpet or ground and running carefully into and out of amps and speakers...,

You will find more of the top names like PS Audio are shielding power cables..., you don't need to spend allot of money to buy shielded power cable from PS Audio, you get the idea.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Can you point to some research or testing that has shown PVC to be a problem with regard to static?


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

I did a quick search and found 1 decent link for AV racks. I'll look for the one I mentioned above. The link below will give an idea of what's out there. 

http://www.thesimpletvstandstore.co..._id=0&ef_id=UGYy5AAAUA0ONRLb:20121015002034:s

Also, try Mapleshade. If you want to know if Mapleshade is on the right track with their ideas, try buying one of their recomended CD's Depending on the master recordings they have to begin with or if the recording is a Mapleshade original recording you will get a CD that has incredible detail. The instruments sound so much like the real thing. Mapleshade offers lots of system tweaking ideas. One idea I like is building an AV rack from 2" or 3" maple.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Icallo, take a piece of glass, a piece of wood and a piece of PVC and rub with wool sock. Try the same with Polyethylene and PVC sorry this should have been the first. 
My last response will be..., have you read anywhere where PVC is a recomended material because of its sound quality.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Gregr,

Have you any evidence that static electricity from pvc is an issue? You can build up static on lots of things. How does that affect sound quality?

I am interested in any facts related to this issue.


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## madmachinest (Aug 11, 2012)

hanks for the reply Gregr. As I stated I am at least 2 weeks away from ordering any thing so a change now is easy.

I currently use DIY cables I make myself for the speakers. Real 12 gauge wire with 11mm outer diameter I ordered on Amazon, I currently use banana clips but just this morning started looking at speakon connectors. This is a Picture of a spare set I made the other day trying Techflec sleeving for the first time. I haven’t decided if I like it yet. 

I currently use monoprice rca cables between the receiver (Marantz SR6006) and 3 crown amps. I was also looking at RCA to I think its XLR connectors at monoprice but from what I have been reading there is some questions about how they are wired and what the better way is. I currently do not know the correct answer so I have not made a decision.

I totally agree with you it’s a combination of good gear and a bunch of small details that make the difference. That’s why I read these forums, I consider myself an informed person but the world is full of smart people and I can learn from anyone. 

I currently have all definitive Technology BP 2002tl’s in the front, one pair of SM 350 for centers and a pair of SM1000 rears all running off separate Crown XLS 1500 amps. I use a set of SM800 I switch between front wide or front height. I like both but SR6006 will only do one of them at a time. Older CC1000 in the back and a Rel subwoofer with the powered subs in the BP2002’s for the low end. In a 28 x 36 ft room it really sounds good. I have been chasing the genie of better sound for quite some time now. 

I have not tried your suggestion to spike the speakers, I installed the wood floors myself and am not willing to risk the damage and I have not yet experimented with room treatments but I also enjoy the reaction of friends and family when they come over but this system mainly is for my enjoyment. 

I plan on adding power distribution and line conditioning to the Rack as well as better cooling. Although I expect to spend between $600 to $750 on it I do not expect to hear a difference. I am doing this for reasons listed in previous posts plus I believe it will help extend the life of the equipment. 

I look foreword to any other suggestions you or anyone else offers. I am not a believer in “super cables” or “special CD lubricant” but am willing to consider and learn from anyone. Again thanks for the input I will investigate other materials for the wire ducts.


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## madmachinest (Aug 11, 2012)

Gregr again thanks for the link. I have decided to go with an industrial steel rack 42u about 7 ft tall on casters. I intend to use smoked plexy on the sides and leave the back open for air movement. I currently have Wood floors and a 32 ft wall of oak bookshelves and cabinets I hand made in the room and have decided to go with the “industrial “look for the rack. I think I have enough wood in the room. I can get a used one locally for $200.

I have been hand building my own furniture for over 35 years now and I will say anyone who has tried to use PVC pipe to distribute compressed air or dust control in a shop will tell you about the nasty shocks you can get from static electricity. So I can confirm that as a potential problem. Although there needs to be some friction to really zap you. Personal experience and expense can vouch for that. I just thought with the ducts connected to a grounded metal rack it would not be a problem. I will reconsider that decision. Thank you.

I really enjoy the forums here with all the combined experience there is a wealth of knowledge and lessons learned that everyone can take advantage of. I do not often post but I stalk often. 

I am looking for a reasonable priced rack mount power conditioner so if anyone has any suggestions I am all ears

Good night and keep the ideas coming


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## gsmollin (Apr 25, 2006)

In audio cables, there is no difference between PVC, polyethylene, or Teflon in terms of sound quality. They all sound the same. 

In terms of static buildup, they can all build up a large static charge. There are subtle difference between these insulators in the amounts of static they make, and depending on what they rub against or how the static charge is induced. However, they are all a static problem. That being said, if you use shielded cable then you won't hear a difference.

In terms of fire safety, you should check with your local fire code inspector before you install anything except Teflon insulation. Most PVC should be OK to use, but it could depend upon if the wire in question has the certifications you need. Don't put polyethelene into a wall cavity. While it has low loss at microwaves and is used in some coaxial cables because it is cheap, it melts at low temperatures and burns with toxic fumes.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

If we can all keep an open mind I am sure there is evidence enough to encourage many to reconsider and use anything else but PVC, especially considering there is material available for building an AV rack that will truly benefit an AV system. 

I give you a recommended "static generator". http://www.sparkbangbuzz.com/els/stat-gen-el.htm

You do not need to rub PVC to build or discharge static when you have AC or DC current running through it. I can give many examples of manufacturer’s reasons for steering clear of PVC. The best reason is there are other materials that have a clear benefit to AV systems. Foamed Polyethylene or PE is very popular in fact cotton is popular again as well especially for crossovers and in amps. PVC is unpredictable at best but the bigger issue is that this PVC question (at least to me) added to the many other issues do add up to a big problem.

However to be honest I believe some will never hear the difference in either case. Unfortunately I know there are those who cannot hear a difference in sound quality beyond a certain point for some this is because they do not take the time to listen for others their ears are simply not made that way and still others like myself in addition to having my eyes fixed I would love it if I could get the ears done next. 



Mapleshade has some nice maple racks a little too pricey for my liking but I like the idea, this is a sound idea :heehee: :T


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

When I had my last home built the audio installer claimed that running the wires in PVC caused a ringing... Not sure how true it was but this was for going through the walls and not the short distance you have.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

There are some great Power conditioners out there PS Audio has a few pricey PS condt. $2k to4k. In any case Furman is becoming very popular. In my search 2 to 3 years ago I stumbled upon Monster Power HTS 3600 and bought it. What I thought was best about it is the 1.25" soft ferrite donut the incomming AC lines each coil thru the donut several times both Pos and Neg I remember if the ground did as well. But in addition the outgoing AC power lines each coil around the same type 1.25" soft (soft meaning low magnetism) ferrite magnets. All of the internal hand wiring is heavy solid copper wire. everything is of decent quality except for maybe the buss-bar it is adequate but I would have been more impressed with 16ga as opposed to 22ga. 

Bottom line in A/B testing I can say this does a pretty good job of staying out of the way of sound. I cannot say the sound is improved but the sound does make some changes but the change is mostly just that "its different". I have nice sound with or without and no matter how long I listen I cannot say anything is missing in either power condt or without. So I do use this as my surge protector and I have had no problems. If I do get zapped the Varister is replaceable. Simply unplug the blown varister and plug in the new and hopefully nothing else blew. Come to think of it I just might replace the varister anyway it has been 3 years or more maybe I can find a better quality varister anyway. Sometimes the little things can make a big difference.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

I got side tracked sorry I am answering your questions in pieces but..., I just finished your post listing your equipment and you definitely are listening to some nice sound now. I like your DIY attitude, its how and why I keep adding bits of knowledge to what I understand already. 

Where are you finding the Heat Shrink "y" (pants)they look like a nice quality. Radio Shack is crazy expensive. There was guy on eBay selling older Western Electric 12ga power cable for speaker cable. I always wanted to try it because all of that old copper wire is a pure billet of 101 copper it was all oxygen free copper back then the smelting process assures that. I'm using Kimber Kable now and I am really liking this but I want to try Furutech' Professor Ohno Continuous Cast ultra pure copper wire, some of these wires have less than 7 ohms of resistance per kilometer. These wires also have very low capacitance and inductance measurements..., in other words great conductivity with little to interfere with sound transfere. Furutech also cryogenicly treat all of their audio equipment. It can get pricy but if I buy parts and build cables myself I can put together some decent cables. 

Back to the reason for this post. I think you are thinking about a balanced interconnect with your use of speakon's and XLR's. There is or can be a problem with using balance interconnects and balanced speaker cables. The concern is that some new amps and preamps and DACs and all of your source equipment must all be balance connected as well. The problem comes when a source component is star grounded internally (or double insulated) and so no ground wire going back to a true ground (earth). It is not always a problem and lots of people will tell you they have two wire powered source components and balanced interconnects and unbalanced speaker wires. From what I know it is not always a problem and when it is it is not easy to pinpoint the solution. Oh by the way the problem is not getting lifted it is hum 60 cycle hum like the fluorescent lights caused hum in adjacent audio equipment. 

I've read some great material on this question I'll see if I can dig it up for you.


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## madmachinest (Aug 11, 2012)

Gregr the wire pants are not heat shrink material. They are rubber and great quality for $1 each. I order them on Amazon. “Speaker Wire Pants 12 Gauge Y Boot -10 Pack Ships from and sold by KnuKonceptz.” They come in many sizes and fit the cable I use very tight. I actually use a little wd40 on them to make installation easier.

The speaker wire I use Cables To Go 29173 Velocity 12 AWG Bulk Speaker Wire has an outer diameter of 11.4mm and fits the boot like they were designed for each other and I do not even need to use any heat shrink on them to keep them in place.

I checked out the MAPLESHADE website and I have to say I love the look of the audio racks they have. Agreed they are very pricy but easily made in my shop for a very modest investment of time and materials. Thinking hard about my “too much wood in the room “statement. I have several sections of 3” maple butcher block counter top I salvaged several years ago that are just calling to me now. 

I read thru their “HOW TO” section and aside from the infomercial for their products much of it made sense. I have in the past used weights on top of components to stop annoying rattling and the 3 point contact on their stands make perfect engineering sense as well. I do not buy into the concept of thinner solid wires giving better sonic results, it goes against every thing I have read but I have never tried it so I will not totally discount it either. Just do not think I will try that one soon. 

Sitting here listening to internet radio 1.fm chill out lounge thru Dolby PL II and I am extremely happy with what I hear. I actually took a ½ vacation day today to just sit here and enjoy the system. If I am home it’s on 12 to 14 hours a day and I do not have the vocabulary to truly describe how it sounds and how much pleasure I get from it. I have had people I work with tell me I am crazy to spend this kind of money for what they consider an “over size ipod” UNTILL I invite them over then they admit they have never heard anything like it. Often I will get a call suggesting they come over for a wine tasting and end up bringing a movie or CD’s they want to listen to. The look on peoples face when I play their favorite CD’s they think they are familiar with on my system is very gratifying. 

I have rambled on long enough and am going to log off now sit back and enjoy for now.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Madmac.... yeah, Mapleshade has come up with a few ideas that are hard to follow. The ultra-lite speaker wire is one. All I can figure is they must be powering some ultra flea-weight tube amps and small or super efficient speakers and maybe after applying all of the system tweaks they offer you might get away with it. On the other side of things the instrument end, my Strat guitar has some very lite pick-up wire leads. My pickups use wires lighter than phone wires and put out some amazing sound, but then gets amped up, I don't know with clean sound maybe you just don't need bulk copper.

I know you can have too much copper. In fact in my Kimber Kable VS8 I removed two wires of the left and the right. After reading their paperwork I experimented and won big, this time.

No matter though I am not ready to go down that path. I have too many ideas to follow that take me in a different direction. I wanted to first buy some brass rod and have some cones spikes made that still contain as much brass as possible but provide a carpet point. I can buy the floor protector discs cheap enough. Discs facilitate mass loading better than spikes into the floor, except thru carpet where you need plain spikes.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

I made a recommendation earlier about power and I gave a very simplistic answer. Of course I feel there are better power conditioners in the marketplace. I do not know anything much about Oyaide, Acrolink, Synergistic Research, First Impression Music, Neotech except most of these manufacturers are now using the purest copper available to man and why not. Not to mention Furutech. When Furutech first hit the US market you could buy OCC Copper (Prof. Ohno Continuous Cast Copper) products very reasonably. Then with added piezoelectric' and carbon fiber prices went through the roof. 

I still like furutech with OCC copper or OFC both have nice elec properties OCC x 10. OCC copper is a single crystal 410' long if you look at magnifications you will see a very smooth consistency in OCC copper and rough texture in High Purity OFC copper. I understand I am probably looking a extremes of each example but I get the idea. 

I read somewhere where a manufacturer wrote about their Toroid' and transformer' having almost 0 ohm resistance and extremely low capacitance, inductance, noise and almost no heat build up. Remember the low hum standing near some of the big transformers for cattle fences and/or even some of the bigger power supplies for tube amps, man manufacturers still use seperate PS for tube amps and now DAC', mostly because of the noise these parts introduce. With Audio and/or electric parts fastened with screws you still need to perform regular maintenance especially tightening all screws, including speaker terminals. With this info alone you will find dozens of new ideas for improving your HT system.

Do you remember the Digital Cable I bought for $200 well I had to take it apart recently.

first I found a thick layer of Teflon below the TecFlex cover and next a velveteen material (very interesting materials mix here), next I found a foil layer but not Mylar..., this had a cloth texture to it and probably 2mm thick bright shinny alum. foil and more Teflon, between each layer was Teflon. Covering the center copper conductor was .25" clear Teflon and wrapped around that..., Furutech GC-303. This is a very interesting Digital interconnect. I just gave away many interesting new ideas..., new to most of us anyway. Because I had such an incredible experience with this single cable addition to my system these materials are now on my list of buy parts pieces and what to look for in any new accessories.

I did mention Furutech again. If you look at Furutech' power distribution boxes you will find GC-303 cloth like product wraps the inside of its box. Also if you go to Cryo-Parts.com you will find some of these materials and other similar materials are used 
throughout Lee's (RIP) Electronic pieces. A great innovator and Pioneer Lee explored Sound and Power and contributed great ideas and accessories. I like the heavy gauge alum boxes his family and friends continue to offer thru: http://www.cryo-parts.com/
Here you can find links to other products as well.

This is soon Hx


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Also add Shunyata (check the spelling?) to your vocab. these guy' have all the right parts and pieces and may have something in power conditioning.

One more thing, today I sense adding just a single length of pure copper 6n-8n esp OCC is all you need to clean up the power and the subsequent sound. This can be power feed or interconnect or speaker cable.


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## jaddie (Jan 16, 2008)

Gregr said:


> It is the static that can be problematic, first off. (snip)
> 
> PVC is a known problem actually a little more than a slight problem.


If you have any reference materials on this, it would be great to have a link or three.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

My statement is simply with all of the questions about static why not just use materials better suited to...

If you read the thread entirely you will find a link to a static generator. To that I ca n add my life' experience.

I have been around and involved in electronics throughout my life. My Dad in the early years of TV especially with the advent of color used a degaussing hoop to de-static and fully sensitize the electromagnetic TV screen to receive the color photons blasted from the Cathode ray gun (ha,ha just sounds funny) to the screen. But before he could do this he had to turn the TV sound volume to "0" otherwise this process would blow the speaker. But if you turn up the sound just a little you can create the craziest sounds (probably how Moog was founded). This super charged static hoop did not absorb static it would just move it around and so ultimately one would simply sweep the static from the screen. In service mode you could watch this occur in real time.

In those days also when programs are off the air you would hear static in the air through the TV sound system. In today's electronics this background noise is compensated for and so you will never hear it as background (idle noise). So this raises one question what happens when you get rid of the systems need to compensate? In any case in those days you could increase or decrease static noise by moving the antenna or just by moving wires or sometimes standing in the middle of the room and moving your arms.

Static has not gone anywhere it still has effects, however. Most manufacturers have moved vinyl wire insulation away from the surface of the wire because, electric travels on the surface of the wire (skin effect) and Coulombs Law states discharge is most effective on rounded surfaces but I don't know if thats pos to neg or neg to pos but if you need to know the link is below.

You have probably heard of DBS systems for speaker cables - one effect is to polarize the cable to min EMI effect, the other is to charge the dielectric so that the audio signal (themselves and electric charge moving in the wire) does not have to. That is the general thought. I try to avoid all of it by using a material that minimizes wire contact. Cotton or foamed PE.

The first link is the sound of static in the line before electronics wizardry. The second is simply an attempt to provide info to explain static potential. Again I try to avoid by simply using material that is beneficial /conducive to audio reproduction.

http://soundbible.com/1611-TV-Static.html

http://www.cs-elec.com/eng/sub/static-electromagnetic-wave.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb's_law

I hope this helps


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

You seem to be confusing magnetic effects and static electricity, gregr. You father's degussing ring produced a magnetic field to degauss the CRT. It produced nor affected static charges. There is of course a large static charge on a CRT due to the tens of kv on the anode of the CRT.

Degaussing a CRT simply removes magnetic fields on the CRT that cause the beam to deflect from the proper landing on the phosphors.

I have been servicing, installing, and calibrating systems for three decades and in my experience your concern with static electricity and PVC are not something that I have seen seriously expressed by processionals in the industry.


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## jaddie (Jan 16, 2008)

I'll add that the recording of "static" that was linked to isn't actually static at all, it's the sound of an unlocked FM demodulator generating random noise. But there was no actual static involved in the creation of the sound. FM demods are actually fairly insensitive to static interference, hence the use of FM as a high fidelity, low noise transmission medium, and the sound channel in NTSC TV. You remember the refrain, "No static at all....FM!", right?

The link to the static generator was interesting, but IMHO irrelevant unless you periodically rub fabric on your installed PVC conduit. However, the static "circuit" of wires within PVC is totally different from the circuit of a deliberate static generator anyway. The only commonality was the PVC. In fact, running basically grounded wires through your static generator would ruin its ability to generate static, and would turn it into a tiny heat generator...you'd warm your hand rubbing the fabric, that's it.

What I'm looking for is not an explanation of static itself, though in light of the discussion, it might not be bad to refresh. I'm looking for scientific evidence that we need to worry about static around audio and video wires of any kind, and a scholarly reason that PVC conduit should not be used. My few minutes of Googling turned up nothing, but nobody's perfect. I did find reference to a microphone cable with a conductive PVC layer designed to _dissipate_ static that may be picked up through handling, though. ;-)


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Regardless of what the sound actually was, that is what static sounds like. 

Icallo, are you saying the degaussing hoop is not a giant electromagnetic static charge. And in addition to sensitizing and equalizing the charge on the surface of the TV screen it does not sweep discordant static charges from the screen surface. In any case the point was the audio not the video effect. But as long as we are on the topic when an audio speaker is near a CRT screen the electromagnetic charge effects the CRT screen..., are you also saying the uninsulated speaker is not effected in the electromagnetic interaction? 

Are you actually trying to understand or you believe you know and just laying in wait to pick at details? I stand by my statements. How is an electric charge flowing past and in contact with (when wire insulation is vinyl) a varying charge not a potential problem?

I am not getting into quantum mechanics and Plunks constant nor Coulombs Law. Maybe I can be clearer than my first comments but to me the point is why bother..., if there is a question, and there certainly is, simply use something that is known to benefit sound in its place. Your points are not.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

I am saying that you are confusing two very different physical properties, static charge and electromagnetism. A degaussing coil produces no static charge. I am not picking at details, but trying to bring clarity where you are creating confusion with respect to important concepts. Unshielded speaker wires are rarely affected by static charges. While static charges can be problematic, it is almost never so under the conditions you are applying.

You have been asked to substantiate a concern that has rarely, if ever, been noted as an issue. You have not provided any credible support for your notions of static charges on PVC being a problem and you have confused basic physical properties. Enough.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

I have not confused anything it is the effect of static thru on electromagnetics I am talking about


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## jaddie (Jan 16, 2008)

lcaillo said:


> I am saying that you are confusing two very different physical properties, static charge and electromagnetism. A degaussing coil produces no static charge.


+1 - correct!


lcaillo said:


> I am not picking at details, but trying to bring clarity where you are creating confusion with respect to important concepts. Unshielded speaker wires are rarely affected by static charges. While static charges can be problematic, it is almost never so under the conditions you are applying.


+1 again.


lcaillo said:


> You have been asked to substantiate a concern that has rarely, if ever, been noted as an issue. You have not provided any credible support for your notions of static charges on PVC being a problem and you have confused basic physical properties. Enough.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Gregr said:


> I have not confused anything it is the effect of static thru on electromagnetics I am talking about


Please explain exactly what you are talking about. A static field has no electromagnetic effect on nearby signal carrying conductors. A discharge from a static charge can induce a transient. Describe the precise conditions where you are concerned that audible effects might occur. 

You have indeed confused and confounded electrostatic and electromagnetic effects in your statements and it is not clear at all how your suggestions fit with basic principles of physics and electronics. You have started with an assumption that PVC is bad for sound quality and somehow ended up talking about "effect of static thru on electromagnetics" and even with years of study in the field, I cannot follow any logical connection nor the relationships to physical laws as we know them.


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## jaddie (Jan 16, 2008)

Gregr said:


> I have not confused anything it is the effect of static thru on electromagnetics I am talking about


Please understand, many of us here are on a quest for truth, and along the way we all realize there will be some that disagree. This isn't meant to discredit you, but when you state fact, it should be very easy to substantiate with outside sources. If that's not possible, then you may be completely correct in stating your opinion, but forgive us if we can't accept it as fact. 

lcaillo as posted statements that are verifiable by many authoritative sources, and those of us with a working knowledge of the principles agree with those statements. 

Rather than challenge your understanding of science, we just would like to see something...anything...that proves your point, other than a stronger reiteration. I can't speak for others, but I'm fully ready to accept a concept that's new to me, or even conflicts with my understanding, but not solely because it's posted by someone (anyone). New or unfamiliar concepts require the backup of published research before they can be universally accepted. That research shouldn't be hard to find, but I haven't found it so far. 

I extend this polite invitation to you to direct us to the evidence, research, or proof. Otherwise, please try to understand, the idea that static caused by PVC pipe affects the wires and signals running through it is a bit difficult to swallow, mainly because it conflicts with our general understanding of the principles. 

One last note, the "sound of static" is never a continuous sound, as static discharge is always transient in nature. Brief clicks, momentary pops, or loud crackles caused by a lightning strike would all be the real sound of static. A static charge is a more or less steady state condition of a difference in potential between to objects. No current is actually flowing until discharge, which is brief, violent, and noisy, but then passes. Inter-station noise, the noise you see or hear between TV or radio stations, is not primarily caused by static discharge in an FM system like FM radio or non-digital TV. The broad spectrum noise heard when a receiver is not tuned to a station is often called "static", but the term is technically used improperly. There is a varying noise floor in AM radio that does relate to atmospheric static discharge, but it is not generally a steady-state sound, but is made up of transient pulses caused by distant lighting strikes.

These may not help much, but at least they relate:

http://www.radiolabs.com/Articles/amnoise.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_FM_radio_more_resistant_than_AM_radio_to_noise_and_static


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

Well put jaddie.
When this thread first posted I searched for any tests/white papers that had studied this effect and I found none. The closest I came was one relating to vinyl record inserts which can create static when the record is inserted and removed.
The only other issue was a woodworking forum that used PVC pipes for the return lines for their vacuum cleaners. As you can expect wood particles travelling rapidly within a PVC pipe can generate very high static fields. The solution to that problem is easy. Simply run an earth wire along the pvc to dissipate the static.
I also have used a magnetic degaussing wand to remove the temporary magnetisation of CRT screens and can validate that no static charge is involved.

Cheers,
Bill.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Well, I have given examples of static potentials and influences on electric charges and electromagnetic fields. I may have changed the use of the conventional use of the term static but ultimately they are the same thing = an electric potential. 

I don't really care what the mechanical design of a degaussing strap is I am simply showing examples of static as it is manipulated by an electromagnetic field. All of my examples are of static and electromagnetic fields and the effect on one from/through the other and a Potential Effect on sound. I do not need numbers I see a clear potential to disrupt an audio signal. Why would anybody use what is a a potential problem

PVC is cheap, I get that but there are better insulators. Are you saying that dielectrics era not effected by a charge and have no effect on electric fields and electric current and that there is no relationship here at all?


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Are you saying that wire insulation does not develop an electric charge when in use? In turn are you saying there is no effect on electric current nor electromagnetic fields?


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

When charges move there is a magnetic field. With static charge there is none. A PVC enclosure on a conductor such as a speaker wire would have no meaningful dielectric effect on signals in that wire, nor would there be any magnetic effects of static built up on that PVC until the static charges move.

Terminology is important in understanding science and technology. We have been trying to understand your point, but your statements have been inconsistent with the science in some cases. If your meaning is different than your words we are giving you the opportunity to clarify, but we cannot allow incorrect statements to confuse our users.

There is no static electricity associated with a degaussing coil. There are magnetic effects that can cause noise. Noise can be due to discharges of static electricity but it would be transient in nature. I think much of the confusion comes from mixing up the terms static and noise and confusing magnetic fields with static charges.

No one is asking you for numbers, just clarity in what you are suggesting might be meaningful effects on sound and the specific context and conditions of your suggested effects. All ideas are welcome here and we can always learn new things, but those ideas must be articulated and justified in a manner that makes sense and follows convention if they are to be understood and accepted. So far, we have not been able to understand how what you are suggesting applies or is consistent with our understanding of the science and practical experience.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Gregr said:


> Are you saying that wire insulation does not develop an electric charge when in use? In turn are you saying there is no effect on electric current nor electromagnetic fields?


There are dielectric effects in wire insulation. PVC actually has a higher dielectric constant than many materials (such as polystyrene and polyethylene), worse than others (such as mylar or neoprene). Overall it is considered quite appropriate as an insulator for many applications and as an enclosure for signal carrying cable in general. It is not a high temperature insulator but its overall insulating and dielectric properties are more similar than different with respect to the above mentioned materials, making it quite useful for running wires as conduit. It does not, however, conduct, so has no grounding nor shielding advantages.


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## jaddie (Jan 16, 2008)

Gregr said:


> Well, I have given examples of static potentials and influences on electric charges and electromagnetic fields.


The examples given are tangential at best. We are discussing the possibility of static buildup on a piece of installed PVC pipe, and the effect of that static charge on the signals the wires carry. No example has been giving that is the equivalent of those conditions or that electrical circuit.



Gregr said:


> I may have changed the use of the conventional use of the term static but ultimately they are the same thing = an electric potential.


Potential means there is there could be current flow if there was a circuit. Potential in and of itself causes no problem any more than the ancient belief that electricity would leak out of an unused outlet.


Gregr said:


> I don't really care what the mechanical design of a degaussing strap is I am simply showing examples of static as it is manipulated by an electromagnetic field. All of my examples are of static and electromagnetic fields and the effect on one from/through the other and a Potential Effect on sound. I do not need numbers I see a clear potential to disrupt an audio signal. Why would anybody use what is a a potential problem


Well, you may not need numbers, but if it's real, they should be there. You may see a potential problem, but if it's a real problem, it should be verifiable. 


Gregr said:


> PVC is cheap, I get that but there are better insulators.


Please cite an example of a better insulator in the form of a conduit for carrying AV cables.


Gregr said:


> Are you saying that dielectrics era not effected by a charge and have no effect on electric fields and electric current and that there is no relationship here at all?


Nope. All I'm saying is the above. All I'm asking for is for proof, documentation, actual testing of any kind, some kind of statement other than yours, that static buildup on installed PVC conduit with AV cables in it is possible, and that its transfer of energy to the signal carrying wires within is possible and detrimental to the signals. Thats all.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Hello Again,


The previous examples of static and electricity and magnetism and electromagnetism I found in approximately 10 min but I had hoped these would give a sense that there is a relationship between them and one has influence on the other. So I spent a little more time this time but I hope you find evidence enough to reconsider your use of PVC (an extreme and poisonous pollutant) for anything better and anything is better it looks like.

The info below if not otherwise indicated is taken from Wikipedia' under PVC.



PVC's relatively low cost, biological and chemical resistance and workability have resulted in it being used for a wide variety of applications. It is used for sewerage pipes and other pipe applications where cost or vulnerability to corrosion limit the use of metal. With the addition of impact modifiers and stabilizers, it has become a popular material for window and door frames. By adding plasticizers, it can become flexible enough to be used in (Low Voltage) cabling applications as a wire insulator. It has been used in many other applications.
The above material is taken from a Wiki article on PVC – I would add plasticizers are also present in soft PVC wire insulation. Because PVC is probably the least expensive wire insulator and less expensive than other materials it replaces in other industries as well it is very popular. In addition it must be said changes need to be made in materials choices industry wide especially considering there is a sea of plastic debris, twice the size of Texas, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean that was the Sargasso Sea

PVC is a polymer with good electrical properties, but because of its larger polar, the electrically insulating property is worse than polyethylene and polypropylene and Teflon. As the dielectric constant, dielectric loss tangent value and volume resistivity are relatively high, the corona resistance is not very good, it is generally suitable for medium or low voltage and low frequency insulation materials.

*Plasticizers*
It has been claimed that some plasticizers leach out of PVC products. However, it has been difficult to prove that plasticizers readily migrate and leach into the environment from flexible vinyl articles because they are physically and tightly bound into the plastic as a result of the heating process used to make PVC particles. Vinyl products are pervasive including toys,[26] car interiors, shower curtains, and flooring initially release chemical gases into the air. Some studies indicate that this outgassing of additives may contribute to health complications, and have resulted in a call for banning the use of DEHP on shower curtains, among other uses.[27] The Japanese car companies Toyota, Nissan, and Honda have eliminated PVC in their car interiors starting in 2007. In 2004 a joint Swedish-Danish research team found a statistical association between allergies in children and indoor air levels of DEHP and BBzP (butyl benzyl phthalate), which is used in vinyl flooring.


Below are measurements of resistivity of various materials, 


[20]
Glass
10×10 to the 10th power/10×10 to the 14th power

PVC
10x10 to the 11th


[7][8]
Hard rubber
1×10 to the 13

[7]
Sulfur
1×10 to the 15

[7]
Air
1.3×1016 to 3.3×1016
3×10−15 to 8×10−15

[21]
Paraffin
1×10 to the 17 - 10to the18


Fused quartz
7.5×10 to the 17
1.3×10 to the18
?
[7]
PET
10×10to the 20th power - up to 10 to the 21st power
The difference in resistivity between PVC and PET is 100,000,000,000
(one hundred trillion)
Teflon
10×10 to the 22nd power - up to 10×10 to the 24th power
The difference in resistivity between PVC and Teflon is 100,000,000,000,000
(One hundred quadrillion) 


Below are resistive values for soft PVC measurements (PVC with plasticizers). Note: surface measurements are much less resistive compared with core measurements.



Core Resistivity [Ω m][13][14]
10x10 to the 12th power up to the 14th power

Surface resistivity [Ω][13][14]
10x10 to the 11th power

REF:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride#Electrical_Properties



An interesting point is the resistivity at the (Inside or Outside) surface of PVC is 10 to the 3, 10 to the 4, that is 3 to 4 levels of magnitude less than PVC internally. I would like to make an association with the probable instability at the surface contributing to static propagation and discharge. That is, with the flow of current through PVC the surface accumulates free electrons more than other dielectric insulators with more frequent releases of charges. If PVC insulating value dropped an additional 3 levels of magnitude further we would be calling it a semiconductor. 

*the difference in resistance from the surface measurements to the PVC core measurements, also its low coronal resistance (arcing) and the fact PVC is recommended for low voltage and low frequency currents specifically to me says PVC is not a good choice except for use in a flashlight.

One additional thought. There is an incredible amount of energy contained within each atom. Einstein for a time was not able to predict the size and scope of an atomic detonation. 

Can you imagine the implications of an energy level equal to 10 to the 93rd power per gram per centimeter cubed (gm/cm3) this is the level of energy contained in each atom, that's why the atomic bomb is so devastating. When we talk about the effect of current on developing neg static charge/discharge EM fields fluctuations and energies of atomic structure fluctuations if only gyrations in all of the above when considering for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction 

REF: http://www.optique-ingenieur.org/en/courses/OPI_ang_M05_C02/co/Contenu_02.html


Along with the evidence above I believe this comment on the conduction band of good insulators is far enough apart that there is little conduction activity. But if we look at conduction, semi-conduction and insulator as if contained within a continuum of band gap distance measurement. We would observe the conduction band gap for PVC is nearly that of semi-conductor. I believe this is sufficient evidence of electron absorption at the surface of PVC and given that we already know all dielectrics absorb electrons I think it is safe to say PVC absorbs even more. I do not feel I need to restate my position on the use of PVC anywhere near Audio electronics.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Sorry about the mess. I'll attach my word doc here somewhere. With the graphics this is much easier to follow.
It all looked good until I posted.


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## jaddie (Jan 16, 2008)

Thanks for the flood of information on insulators. Interesting, if a big un-digestable. Given that the average person here is probably not a physics or chemistry major, there's a high probability that readers will either a) not be able to assimilate much if any of this, or b) readers just won't be readers in this case.

While interesting, your conclusion that because PVC as an insulator absorbs electrons, and that property makes it a poor insulator ignores something rather key: the degree of absorption, and more importantly, your admittedly unstated conclusion of that property's effect on audio signals contained within a PVC conduit. 

While the references given are most likely accurate, and the discussion of these properties is interesting, there is no coupling of those properties with effects in a specific application. It's about like stating that every wire carrying an AC current creates a huge alternating magnetic field around it, and therefore should be miles away from another conductor. The first half of that statement is correct, of course. But, audio cables are never single wires, they are always paired, and often twisted. The fields around both conductors creates a situation of mutual cancellation, and very little magnetic field exists around the paired cable. So the conclusion, the need for miles of separation, would be based on incorrect application of the theory to a specific condition.

It's like saying that ultraviolet rays from the sun destroy skin cells (true), so never expose your skin to sun (not true, moderate sun exposure provides many essential vitamines). Moderation, and application. 

In this case, our specific condition is a stationary PVC conduit carrying audio and video cables. 

All I'm asking for is for proof, documentation, actual testing of any kind, some kind of statement other than yours, that static buildup on installed PVC conduit with AV cables in it is possible, and that its transfer of energy to the signal carrying wires within is possible and detrimental to the signals. Thats all. The information you've provided has not been applied to that situation, it's just raw information. 

Your statement, "I do not feel I need to restate my position on the use of PVC anywhere near Audio electronics", is actually the problem here. Nobody, not even you, have clearly stated the comparative _results_ of using PVC near audio electronics. 

We anxiously await that information.


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## jaddie (Jan 16, 2008)

While we're at it, how about this (again): Please cite an example of a better insulator in the form of a conduit for carrying AV cables.

Keeping the discussion positive, if there's a problem with PVC conduit, and there's no viable alternative, why discuss it?


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

I have uploaded a word document in several different files they are numbered and one is missing it has a chart that is too big to transpose. It is not worth the effort, the info is not critically important to the document
I believe #2 or #3 will have a short list of insulators in order of resistive measurement. It looks like Teflon top's the list then PET. Looking at the list PVC is on par with glass as far as numbers indicating resistivity. 

PVC is a polymer with fair electrical properties, but because of its larger polar, the electrically insulating property is worse than polyethylene or polypropylene and Teflon.
As the dielectric constant, dielectric loss tangent value and volume resistivity are moderately high, the corona resistance is not very good; it is generally suitable for medium or low voltage and low frequency insulation materials. The above information is taken from the article on PVC in Wikipedia. Teflon is 10 to 12 orders of magnitude higher in resisting electron penetration. .


If anybody would rather I email the Word document please send a request. I do believe the document will hold together through an email.


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## jaddie (Jan 16, 2008)

Lots of data, no application to the discussion. 

The original question remains unanswered.

Posting more data without applying it to the question under discussion doesn't prove or disprove anything. it (apparently) serves no purpose to keep restating the question, so I won't. But in view of the lack of a definitive answer, we are forced to draw our own conclusions.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Jaddie et. al., what is the question? Are asking if one has an effect on the other or are you asking if static has an effect at all. I'm hearing there is not enough effect to matter. Is that what you are asking/saying?

I believe all of the numbers on band resistivity show there is an electron interaction and as current flows there is now an action with electromagnetic's with EMField involved.

Please, restate your question?


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Once again, you are confusing electrostatic and electromagnetic properties. A static charge produces an electrostatic field. A flow of current produces an electromagnetic field. The two are very different. Continuing to say that they are the same and continuing to use the terms inconsistently and interchangeably does not make them the same. They are related in that a moving charge will have both an electrostatic field and a magnetic field, but they are orthogonal. A static charge has NO magnetic field.

We started the thread talking about why PVC might be bad to use as conduit for running AV cabling. You have not yet made a clear argument in support of that idea. You have produced an enormous amount of text and links that have not clarified that position beyond your personal belief at all.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

madmachinest said:


> I am planning on moving my system to a rack setup soon and I have been considering using PVC open slot wire duct to keep all the cables separate and organized.
> 
> I just read in another post Gregr stated
> 
> ...



My quote is simply "I wouldn't do it" - Run wires close together and parallel inside a PVC chase. My reason is PVC is not as stable as any other dielectric. Now with the evidence I've presented, I can say that Teflon is one trillion times more likely to resist electron charges and remain neutral to electric current in effect isolate one wire from another 12 orders of magnitude better than PVC except for electromagnetic effects. 

What is an electromagnetic field. 
Before I discover the secret of anti-gravity propulsion I think I'll just restate "I would not do it."

I'll add, I would not use PVC anywhere near a sound system, especially since almost any dielectric is better.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Once again, it is not serving as a dielectric in any meaningful way and there is nothing wrong with using PVC to route and organize wires. 

You might not use it, gregr, but you would be in the minority by quite a margin.


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## jaddie (Jan 16, 2008)

The OP's original question was, and I quote, "...why not PVC?????"

To which I'll add: What specific negative effect does the use of a PVC conduit have on the audio and video signals carried within it? 

Your answer seems to be "I wouldn't do it". I'm only speaking for myself, but sorry, that's not good enough.

If you don't like PVC, and you DO like Teflon, then find us a practical source for Teflon conduit, and more importantly, a real reason to go to that trouble and expense (assuming there even is any such thing as Teflon conduit), other than "I wouldn't do it". 

Then, while we're about it, might as well list sources for non-PVC (teflon?) insulated HDMI, Coax and audio cables, and again, how that insulation improves signal transmission. I'm not asking for reams of unapplied theory here, I'm asking for a couple of lines of actual application test data. You know, simple stuff like "It increases the bandwidth from 100MHz to 300MHz", or "Crosstalk to an adjacent cable 1 inch away is reduced by 3dB at 100MHz". You know, stuff we can actually USE to make an educated decision. And the examples I just gave are hypothetical, please don't anyone think I'm stating test data as example!

Please. No more unapplied raw theory. We all understand Teflon is a superior insulator to PVC, but exactly what difference does that make with common audio and video signals running through a pipe made of it? And please, no more pseudo-science or unsubstantiated opinions. Facts, tests and data, if available. We need practical application data so that when the poor DIY guy goes to install pipe in his walls permanently he doesn't wake up in a sweat at night worrying that he's ruining his signals with PVC pipe. 

Otherwise, it's just crying wolf, and an expensive cry at that. 

I didn't think we really needed to restate the question, as it's already been restated several times, but since that was asked for, now we have it. Yet again.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

A couple of questions, so I can understand where I begin. 
Do you..., we that aside. Who is the "WE" you refer to? I wish that everybody following this thread would chime in with questions of their own so that I know I am not speaking to one Jaddie who is mad. Jaddie I get the feeling you have all of your cables running through a single PVC conduit and you are mocking me hoping I'll give up. 

If somebody would like to help me with this please chime in. I have some college physics but I liked Anatomy and Physiology better cause I couldn't make a mistake with that. With Physics I'm a B student. I don't do well with the "is the box empty quandary". I need a picture so I can add to the picture or take information away. But the picture I create with info was something I could follow.

Electronics has been that type of information, always to many ideas ended with or started with, "to the best of our understanding". In any case there were always questions that had no answers in electronics, you just memorized the info.

Well one lingering question that comes to mind. What are the measurements that prove we are listening to a Stradivarius or a Harmony Violin. With all of the testing we do can we actually say what instruments are playing in a waterfall plot. Do we know if something is missing or even out of tune. No we just take the measurements the manufacturer gives us and we do our tests to compare to see if we get the same. We can see on a waterfall graph if we have a resonant problem but we listen because the resonant frequency might be intended and part of the music.

I really don't know of any measurement that tells us if music sounds good or even is accurately reproduced. So as when a current passes along the speaker cable and is robbed of charges or charges are added to the signal it is really difficult to know how much error is created. Only listening will tell us how much music is lost or corrupt or missing to our ears. 

Are you with me on this?


Below are links to conduit. The first is Polypropylene the second is Teflon. Poly seems reasonable I did not check Teflon after seeing one company using Teflon in their electron gun I just give you the google search page. With Teflon I truly believe even Electromagnetics (EM) will be controlled to a high degree but not entirely. I remember learning of some materials that would stop EM, but I don't remember now what they are. Lead?


https://www.google.com/search?q=++p...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

https://www.google.com/search?q=tef...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


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## jaddie (Jan 16, 2008)

Gregr said:


> A couple of questions, so I can understand where I begin.
> Do you..., we that aside. Who is the "WE" you refer to? I wish that everybody following this thread would chime in with questions of their own so that I know I am not speaking to one Jaddie who is mad. Jaddie I get the feeling you have all of your cables running through a single PVC conduit and you are mocking me hoping I'll give up.


Not mocking you at all, nor am I mad, but for all the text posted, the original question has still not been answered, though restated numerous tomes, which is probably why I may seem frustrated. It's not about my cables, the OP was planning an installation and didn't want to make a bad decision. 

This is a public forum, there is no way to know who is reading it. Just because I might be acting as an advocate for the OP and anyone else facing the question doesn't mean I'm the only one you're talking to.


Gregr said:


> If somebody would like to help me with this please chime in. I have some college physics but I liked Anatomy and Physiology better cause I couldn't make a mistake with that. With Physics I'm a B student. I don't do well with the "is the box empty quandary". I need a picture so I can add to the picture or take information away. But the picture I create with info was something I could follow.


The "picture" basically shows PVC as neither the best or worst as an insulator. It doesn't answer the question, "Is PVC adequate?" because none of the I formation you posted refers to a practical application. The answer might be Yes for low voltage below (500 volts) applications but No for high voltage applications above 5Kv, just as an example. No doubt operating frequency also has impact on the choice of insulation, as does the cost and availability in a usable form. 

Then, also absent from your information, what specific detrimental impact does the use for PVC have on the signals carried in wires within a pipe used as a wire guide? Again, for all the verbosity, no answer is given.

Perhaps some readers were motivated to do a bit of Google searching on their own, asking these questions of the global Internet consciousness. Perhaps the found that there are several opinions ranging from yours (I wouldn't do it) to those of companies like Audioquest who states that PVC offers some positive benefit as an enhancement to audio quality. Neither is substantiated, as are none of the others, pro or con, to the use of PVC, other than those favoring it because of low cost and flexibility, or some chemical interactions in very narrow and specific applications (nothing like what we are discussing).


Gregr said:


> Electronics has been that type of information, always to many ideas ended with or started with, "to the best of our understanding". In any case there were always questions that had no answers in electronics, you just memorized the info.


I have not found this to be the case, though it does take time for a complete understanding to surface. 


Gregr said:


> Well one lingering question that comes to mind. What are the measurements that prove we are listening to a Stradivarius or a Harmony Violin. With all of the testing we do can we actually say what instruments are playing in a waterfall plot. Do we know if something is missing or even out of tune. No we just take the measurements the manufacturer gives us and we do our tests to compare to see if we get the same. We can see on a waterfall graph if we have a resonant problem but we listen because the resonant frequency might be intended and part of the music.
> 
> I really don't know of any measurement that tells us if music sounds good or even is accurately reproduced. So as when a current passes along the speaker cable and is robbed of charges or charges are added to the signal it is really difficult to know how much error is created. Only listening will tell us how much music is lost or corrupt or missing to our ears.
> 
> Are you with me on this?


Only partially. Because of the human ability to accept suggestion and influence, listening tests must be very carefully structured, or they may only reveal flaws in the test.


Gregr said:


> Below are links to conduit. The first is Polypropylene the second is Teflon. Poly seems reasonable I did not check Teflon after seeing one company using Teflon in their electron gun I just give you the google search page. With Teflon I truly believe even Electromagnetics (EM) will be controlled to a high degree but not entirely. I remember learning of some materials that would stop EM, but I don't remember now what they are. Lead?


No working links found, sorry.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

I'm sorry if you were looking for an answer you would see there are several contained in all of my posts. you are not looking at all. 

The posts I sent are google searches. I did not indicate one company because I figured that is up to you. So just gogle Polypro or Teflon conduit.

I rewrote post #37 so it reads and says something. The answers ar everywhere. 

e.g. the resistivity of Teflon is 100,000,000,000,000 (one hundred quadrillion) times better, at resisting something, than PVC. There's one answer.

To clarify another point there are no measurements from electronic testing equipment that can tell if a recording is good if the music sounds good, fair or excellent. This is another answer.

I would like to continue but this question requires a certain amount of willingness to search out an answer. The information may appear tangential but when using several angles I can plot many points on a line or pinpoint my location. Sometimes this is the only answer available. But I do not believe you will accept any answer from me.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

I am curious though what do the books tell you EM comes from. I know we can use it direct it etc but what is it? Can you help me?


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

What is EM exactly?


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

Gregr said:


> What is EM exactly?


EM is, as it says, is an electromagnetic field which is produced by current flowing through a conductor, and it contains electric and magnetic components.
This is totally different to an electrostatic field which is simply a build up of a static charge on an insulator.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

But what is EM? 

We can measure the frequency but what is it? 

Where does it come from?


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Never mind the Q's above..., Please.

EM is one of the four fundamental forces of nature it is the energy that holds everything together.


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## jaddie (Jan 16, 2008)

Gregr said:


> I'm sorry if you were looking for an answer you would see there are several contained in all of my posts. you are not looking at all.


I respectfully beg to differ. I did read all of your posts, several times, as well as the attached word files. The information is accurate, but doesn't apply to or answer the original question.


Gregr said:


> The posts I sent are google searches. I did not indicate one company because I figured that is up to you. So just gogle Polypro or Teflon conduit.
> 
> I rewrote post #37 so it reads and says something. The answers ar everywhere.
> 
> e.g. the resistivity of Teflon is 100,000,000,000,000 (one hundred quadrillion) times better, at resisting something, than PVC. There's one answer.


...and that's an excellent answer to the question "which is a better insulator, PVC or Tefon?" However, that question has never been asked in this thread. Again, right answer, wrong question.


Gregr said:


> To clarify another point there are no measurements from electronic testing equipment that can tell if a recording is good if the music sounds good, fair or excellent. This is another answer.


I respectfully disagree. There are many measurements that have a direct bearing on the quality of reproduced music. No need to cite them here, as again, you're off topic.


Gregr said:


> I would like to continue but this question requires a certain amount of willingness to search out an answer. The information may appear tangential but when using several angles I can plot many points on a line or pinpoint my location. Sometimes this is the only answer available. But I do not believe you will accept any answer from me.


I'm sorry for your beliefs. I'm quite willing to accept any answer to the original question that may substantiate your statements. You've given none so far, so I'm still open.

However...I think you've had a pretty good opportunity to explain your position. Now let me have a try at mine.

For a material's dielectric properties to have any real meaning the material must be part of at least a potential circuit. There has to be a difference in potential across the dielectric for any of those properties to matter, a voltage gradient if you wish. Once there is a potential across it, then dielectric coefficient means something, and would be a factor in how much leakage current would flow through the material. The materials ability to absorb some energy then release it later (dielectric absorption) would be a factor only if the potential were changing rapidly. If there is no potential gradient across the dielectric, then it doesn't matter if the dielectric coefficient is high or low, as there's no charge, no possible current. The material could just as well be a conductor.

Such is the case with a conduit in a wall. On the outside of the conduit is wall structure, usually wood and wall board, none of which is a particularly good conductor. The entire conduit system is arguably "floating", not connected to any particular potential or ground. In the worst case, the conduit may pass by a piece of copper water pipe that is ultimately grounded, and this could provide one pole of a voltage differential at that one point.

Now lets look for the other pole. Considering first speaker wires. Most power amplifiers single pole devices, in that their hot output terminal carries an AC signal that moves above and below ground, and the cold terminal is actually ground. In some rare cases both hot and cold outputs may be active with ground-referenced AC signals on them, but out of phase with each other (bridged output mode). If the amplifier uses an output transformer, it's possible that neither hot nor cold output terminal may be ground referenced, but it doesn't really matter. In either case, the speaker wires travel in pairs, often twisted, sometimes with the conductors bonded as a "zip cord", but always with both conductors of the pair in close proximity to each other. When a current is passed through a conductor a magnetic field is created of a particular polarity. Since each wire of the pair contains an identical current, but each one traveling in the opposite direction to the other, the combined magnetic fields are exactly equal and opposite, so at all but extremely close distances, they cancel each other. The same is true of HDMI wiring (twisted pairs), Cat 5, Cat 6 and other network wiring (again, twisted pairs), and even single conductor shielded audio and video cables, though the analysis of them is slightly different, the magnetic field surrounding the wire is almost nil. 

Note that the E filed (the electric field) around wires behaves similarly, in that pair wires produce equal and opposite fields which largely cancel each other outside of the wire bundle. 

We can talk for a moment about electromagnetic radiation too. A wire with a high frequency AC voltage on it behaves as a transmitting antenna, and would tend to radiate that signal in proportion to several factors such as frequency and physical cable length (as applies to resonant tuning of an antenna), voltage, cross-sectional area of the conductor, and most importantly an opposing conductor, such as that of a dipole antenna. In a video or video coax these signals do exist and would radiate if it weren't for the intentionally grounded shield surrounding the conductor, which effectively blocks nearly all of that energy from escaping due to radiation. A twisted pair works the same way, and so do pair zip-cord wires. There is very little measurable radiated energy.

So, in the example of the OP…putting AV cables in a conduit… we have zero potential on the wires inside, and zero potential out the outside off the conduit. Under these conditions the dielectric properties of the conduit are simply not a factor. There's no voltage gradient, nothing to insulate, no potential charge or current flow. 

For the above reason most conduits in commercial installations are actually conductive, not insulating at all, being made from steel. Even though that conduit may in fact be grounded, the fields on individual conductors inside have already largely cancelled themselves by virtue of wire paring, twisting, and shielding. Nobody would argue the use of steel conduit for carrying only power wires, yet power wires are not typically twisted and have more potential for unbalanced E and H fields around them, causing leakage to the grounded conduit. It's just not that big a problem, so that configuration is typical and never avoided.

There is little point in discussing the merits of detriments of using PVC as a conduit. It doesn't matter that the dielectric properties are inferior to Teflon, or superior to steel. Those properties are not part of any electrical, magnetic, or electromagnetic "circuit" in this configuration. 

I would therefore recommend that the OP, and anyone else that's considering permanent in-wall wire guiding, use PVC with impunity. In fact, take advantage of flexible wire duct systems like Resigard that make A/V wiring easy, safe, and reliable. In fact, use PVC pipe, resigard, steel conduit, or just drill holes through the wall, it matters not even a tiny bit to the signals contained within the wires.

In case you may not have found this while Googling, there are several audio wire manufacturers that use PVC insulation...in fact, nearly every one. Audiquest states, in a downloadable white paper,"Although PVC (Polyvinyl chloride) absorbs more energy than some other materials, the sonic effects are quite benign."

http://www2.audioquest.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DoNoHarm-whitepaper-1222-11-r11.pdf

Further, on a page for their Alpha Snake product, "The general cable industry ranks insulating materials by loss, with little regard for distortion. Audio Quest ranks materials by damage to an audio signal. The PVC used in Alpha-Snake has too much loss to be used in a quality video cable, but it has a very benign distortion profile through the audio range, keeping Alpha-Snake's sound pleasant and natural." Hmmm...a cable not designed for video, but works well for audio...and uses PVC??? Yes, it's possible. 

Keep in mind, the Audioquest applications use PVC as an actual dielectric between conductors with a voltage differential between them. And, again, that's NOT what we're talking about in this thread!

Whew. I was really hoping somebody else would do this first, but at least now there's an answer to the OP's question. You may not like it, but it's a direct answer: Go ahead, use the PVC, it won't matter to the signals inside of it, and will have no impact on the resulting sound or video at all.


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Your looking for the big bang. All of your logic and conventional wisdom is great for understanding how to build electronics with confidence. 

I've had conversations with engineers a friend Timtron who has designed WTOS radio station and several others I don't have call letters for including another station I cannot remember in Maine and some of his HAM friends. Tims simple response was after ac power travels through the transformer, rectifiers etc before amplification the signal is pretty clean. Tim told me not to buy into the hype surrounding many audio products since none of them worked much better than lamp cord. 

I asked about the vibration associated with AC current how is that treated? Same answer.

Well I had to try it, all of Tim's conditions sounded to broad and I felt may overlook the more basic problems. I bought a couple of Furutech power cords. After plugging them in I heard an expansion in sound stage and some of the instruments moved out of the background. That is they were still at a lower volume but I could hear each instrument in detail even at the lower volume. There is no testing equipment for sound stage improvements and there is no test that shows sound improvements. 

The fact that a reputable company like Audioquest states PVC has "negligible effect" is exactly the effect that alone does not amount to much. However, when added to the many many other negligible effects, these add up to a big problem. These are exactly the types of effects that stifle a music system from fully reproducing a recording. 

As far as the channeling of multiple wires in a chase way. I am sure you know about cross-talk. Electromagnetism is one of the four fundamental forces of nature. It is a fundamental force because no other phenomena known to man can define it or explain it. (I don't like it when they say that). In any case Nassim Haramein is a physicist, mathematician who is becoming very popular these days. In a recent interview George Noory proclaimed Nassim the next Einstein. Nassim in this interview while explaining renormalization of atomic energy because the figures they were getting were all too high. so what they did was drop back to a number that fit and called this a renormalized number (I really do not like it when this is done). Well of course Nassim rediscovered the real number and the attempt to overlook it and it fit in nicely with his work.

In any case the 10 to the 93 power that is 10 with ninety three, 0's following it. The energy contained in each atom is equal to 10 to the 93rd gm per cm cubed. "We and the planets might all be 99.99999999% space but that space is full of energy" according to Nassim

When I heard Nassim speak about the energy of the atom (electromagnetism) I finally got an image of why electricity travels near the surface and the same would be true of any dielectric. The dielectric has no current per se but as the audio signal passes through Interconnects and speaker wires there is an equal and opposite action and reaction with the EM or EM field and as the varying cadence and frequencies of the sound signal is translated to the EM field it can and does effect adjacent cables. EM travels through almost everything. Placing all cables a min of 8" apart is recomended. If I had 5 cables to run I would run them equal distance from the others using the full wall e.g. if the wall is 8' I would start at 16" and put each wire 16" apart. To further isolate the EM signal I would use mineral wool or fiberglass insulation. If you have the picture I am sure you will see how the mineral wool will work to break down EMF.

Let me know what you think. I do have a new found respect for your opinion. Thank you for finally saying something of substance.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

The OP's original question appears to have been answered, the consensus is there is nothing wrong with using PVC. This conversation has gone as far as it needs to, this thread is now closed.


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