# Denon 3806 and Audyssey EQ Measurements



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I decided to check out exactly what Audyssey was doing with my response so I took some measurements with and without. It appears to make some needed ajustments, however, it's hard for me to notice a difference. Some may ask how can you help but not notice a difference? I am not a critical listener and I have terrible hearing as it is, especially in the upper range. I can notice a huge peak in certain frequencies, especially down low, but when it comes to full range, I'd be terrible for tuning a system by ear.

Anyway... Audyssey only appears to be able to adjust frequencies centered at full octaves between 63hz and 16khz (it only shows adjustments for these frequencies on my Parameter Check), thus I smoothed the response results to 1/1.

Main Listening Position Only
Red=EQ Off
Green=Audyssey Enabled










Apparently either the bandwidth of the correction that Audyssey applies is rather wide or it has some sort of control over it. The reason I suggest this is because notice how it effects my response from 15hz to 63hz. My response at 15hz has been reduce by 4.1db. Notice also the adjustment from 16khz to 20khz.

I measured this 3 times and came up with nearly identical responses each time.


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Could it have just changed the sub/LFE output level for the low freqs eq and not needed any parametric filters below 63Hz? I always run my yammie's YPAO whenever I tweak my BFD filters and I expect it to change the sub output level a bit.

Bob


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I don't think it changes the levels. The auto setup will change the levels but not the Audyssey EQ. I initially went through the auto setup but prior to taking any measurements I changed the settings it made. It does not get my levels right between the sub and mains, it sets my mains and center to large, and crossovers to 40hz. Once I set it up like it should be, I then take the measurement with the Audyssey off and on. But turning the Audyssey off and on does not effet the other setting... only the eq. The Denon might be dfferent in this aspect vs. the Yammy.


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Yes, Yamaha's YPAO also gets the speaker size wrong (sets too many to large). But you can tell the auto setup to not set the size and then it leaves them alone (I set to small) and also does not mess with the crossover freq (I use 60 Hz as that blends my E-80s with the PCU better). Then it does everything else, the distance, eq, and level set. And checks the speaker phasing. It would seem to me that it would be a normal thing to take the sub level into consideration when doing eq :scratch:.

Bob


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I would think it would only effect the level of the frequencie needing adjustment instead of he entire level. Auto setup should be the part that takes care of level matching. 

Notice on the chart it does the same thing above 16khz as it does below 63hz... there is no level adjustment for 16khz and above.

One thing I do want to do is go back now and remeasure my sub response. I think I'd rather input the eq settings manually vs. allowing Audyssey to cut my sub response after setting it up with the BFD just like I want it.


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## Sthrndream (Apr 21, 2006)

Wow, it really helped a LOT in the critical 100hz-5000hz bandwidth. Hard to say for sure what the minor quirks were above and below that though. If you have time to try a couple of other seating positions it might shed some light on things.

Audyssey is really one of the more advanced "auto" EQ systems...I've talked with those guys a couple times and they do know their stuff.. 

Tom V.
SVS


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## phaseshift (May 29, 2007)

I agree with Tom. 

The only thing I would question is why it is digging into your highs so much. Except for the bump at maybe 15K, it appears to be taking a pretty good chunk out of your upper end in this position. I have to wonder if this is mic position as much as anything; only more tests would tell. Can you take a curve of the signal (electrical only) and post that as a “with” and “without”? That would give you a very good look at the amplitude portion of the adjustment. 

Interestingly, I was looking at the 3806 as a replacement for our current AV revciever in the listening room.


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## RNRGAGNE (Dec 25, 2006)

Unfortunately the 3806 came out the year before Audyssey introduced the new method for high subwoofer resolution. The XT in the 07 & 08 models has that implementation.

There's another very relevant factor that affects the Audyssey in differing receivers, and that is how much DSP memory allocation it allows the Audyssey to use. You could have the identical version of Audyssey in two receivers but one might have higher filter resolution available because of it.


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## RNRGAGNE (Dec 25, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> I don't think it changes the levels. The auto setup will change the levels but not the Audyssey EQ. I initially went through the auto setup but prior to taking any measurements I changed the settings it made. It does not get my levels right between the sub and mains, it sets my mains and center to large, and crossovers to 40hz. Once I set it up like it should be, I then take the measurement with the Audyssey off and on. But turning the Audyssey off and on does not effet the other setting... only the eq. The Denon might be dfferent in this aspect vs. the Yammy.


YPAO doesn't work in the time domain like Audyssey does. And Audyssey does indeed set levels. What you have to realize it that when the Audyssey sets the sub level it is doing so by summing the bass from all speakers so if you change the x-over it sets you'll have to crank up the sub a bit to compensate.

Audyssey sets the speakers as large by what the receiver manufacturer specifies as the LF response cut off. I believe Denon is 40hz so if a speaker is capable of "in-room" FR below 40hz it will be set as large. 

The best way to judge Audyssey is to make sure it get all distances right except the sub which it might alter based on phase and timing in relation to the rest of the speakers. If it gets the distances wrong run it again until it does. Also if the level are way out of whack you probably should run it again. 

There's a whole bunch of reasons why you can get results that are off, but to summarize, this is a very sensitive and high resolution application.

If it gets the above correct, you really should take what it does for a ride and listen to it for a bit before changing any of its' settings.


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## RNRGAGNE (Dec 25, 2006)

Wow, I didn't realize Sonnie's original post dated back to May. I'm obviously a bit late with that advice!! :heehee:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

lol... check out my latest Audyssey results... much better on the low end.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> lol... check out my latest Audyssey results... much better on the low end.


Did you do anything differently with the latest results?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

It's a different receiver with a more improved Audyssey.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> It's a different receiver with a more improved Audyssey.


Of course, you're onto the NAD now. Got it.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Audyssey has supposedly improved the sub bass resolution in the latter versions installed in several of the well featured receivers. I would say they have done a pretty good job implementing the higher resolution.


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## RNRGAGNE (Dec 25, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> Audyssey has supposedly improved the sub bass resolution in the latter versions installed in several of the well featured receivers. I would say they have done a pretty good job implementing the higher resolution.


Yes and also Audyssey MultEQ XT "Pro" is trickling down the food chain too, with availability down to the Denon 3808ci model.


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## John Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Hmmm... I set up the new *Denon 4308CI *today and ran Audyssey in 8 positions, as they recommend. Then the wife and I decided to sample the infamous "Jurassic Park" Jeep sequence...

Suffice to say it was horrible. Excessively bright, limited bass... Now I'm worried I should have held out for the 5308 with THX. My old AVP-A1 had it and sounded warm and fluid.

Note that I'm using the 4308 as a preamp only, so the amps are familiar and worn in. Any ideas what could have gone wrong?


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## RNRGAGNE (Dec 25, 2006)

I had the previous 4306ci in my system for a while and it was a very good sounding unit, there's no reason the 08 shouldn't be. And you should be able to get better results with the Audyssey than without. It would be worth the effort to find out why that's not the case with your rig IMO. 

You might want to start by reading my post #9 above and if you've covered those bases then I would suggest that you go over to AVS forum and check out the Audyssey thread for ideas because of the large amount of variables involved;

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795421


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I've never tried more than one listening position and I'm just never going to be convinced that you don't seriously sacrifice your main listening position by trying to equalize eight positions. I would probably not try to equalize more than one or two positions. It will most likely be different every time you run it... so you could try running it several times. I found it helpful to see my before and after with REW as well... so that I could see what it was doing.


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## John Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Couple of interesting things I found on the web, trying to work out why Audyssey was making my ears bleed...

1. Seems as if these new receivers do well with a "burn-in" period, much like new speakers. This includes the pre-amp stage, which is something I didn't know.

2. My previous preamp was obviously designed to sound very "tube-like"... versus the very accurate sound from these new electronic circus machines. Every little rustle is there in Audyssey, which I think is what I'm perceiving as overt brightness.

I recalibrated Audyssey once again at 8 positions, with some improvement, but then decided just to do a manual setup. -6db cut in treble, +6db boost to bass, and another 1/4 turn on the subwoofer volume. Blasphemy, I know, but now at least it's sounding more like what we've become accustomed to.

Weirdness... :dunno::heehee:


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## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

Audyssey is VERY sensitive to noise when doing measurements. Make absolutely sure you don't have any airconditioning or other source of low frequency noise. That makes audyssey think you have much more LF than you do and overcompensate. Also, try other positions for microphone placement. Keep at it until you get it the way you like it. Also, so make Audyssey prioritize your prime listening position, use 2 or 3 of the measurements in the main spot. Audyssey weigh the measurements by relevance, and if it gets more similar measurements will prioritize those. I usually take 3 readings in a close triangle around the sweetspot (3"-4"). that will give almost the same low frequency measurements, and will smooth out the top end measurements so it won't overcompensate up high. Also, a room with harsh reflections will need (generally) more measurements clustered to sound good. The top-end response vary wildly, and Audyssey tries to compensate for (close to) a point in space. Your ears will NEVER be in the same spot as the microphone. That's why I cluster a few measurements, to give Audyssey a little more data to work with.


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## HClarkx (Nov 10, 2007)

Yes, do keep with the Audyssey setup. It's worth having. If you have preferences that the Audyssey doesn't provide, leave Audyssey on an use tone controls to make adjustments. The Audyssey system uses finite impulse response filters and so does more than just adjust gain at different frequencies. It makes time corrections and can somewhat offset troublesome room decay characteristics. You want that working for you even if you prefer a different curve.

The Audyssey ALFC in the newer receivers increases the resolution of the sub correction and is quite noticeable.


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## RNRGAGNE (Dec 25, 2006)

atledreier said:


> Audyssey is VERY sensitive to noise when doing measurements. Make absolutely sure you don't have any airconditioning or other source of low frequency noise. That makes audyssey think you have much more LF than you do and overcompensate. Also, try other positions for microphone placement. Keep at it until you get it the way you like it. Also, so make Audyssey prioritize your prime listening position, use 2 or 3 of the measurements in the main spot. Audyssey weigh the measurements by relevance, and if it gets more similar measurements will prioritize those. I usually take 3 readings in a close triangle around the sweetspot (3"-4"). that will give almost the same low frequency measurements, and will smooth out the top end measurements so it won't overcompensate up high. Also, a room with harsh reflections will need (generally) more measurements clustered to sound good. The top-end response vary wildly, and Audyssey tries to compensate for (close to) a point in space. Your ears will NEVER be in the same spot as the microphone. That's why I cluster a few measurements, to give Audyssey a little more data to work with.


That's bang on. My findings exactly. I'm using the Audyssey "Pro" in my 9.8 and I did a 5 point cluster at my main position and three at the other five listening positions. I also make absolutely certain it's dead quiet in m HT before running measurements including turning off my Sat PVR, PJ and ionizer. Another important thing is if you're taking a measurement with the mic close to a leather or vinyl couch you should cover the back with a towel or something otherwise the Audyssey will misinterpret the amount of HF reflecting off the seat as being a room anomily.


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## yourgrandma (Oct 29, 2007)

I have the exact opposite problem as John Simpson. Mine is bumping up the midrange and cutting the high. I tried 8 locations in a small area and silenced everything. I pretty much dead ended and am waiting till I improve my treatments to run it again. I'll try tuning it back on and adjusting tone controls, because it does sound more dimentional with Audyssey on, but its just too dull and boxy.


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