# Value Electronics' 9th annual Shootout event



## Robert Zohn

Our 2013 Flat Panel HDTV Shootout evaluation event will be held in our new store at 35 Popham Rd, Scarsdale, NY as follows: 

Day one, 6:00 PM EST, Friday, May 10th and Day two, 6:00 PM EST, Saturday, May 11th 2013.

We'll have up to 70 individuals attending and participating so if you are interested please send me an email with the subject "can I have a seat at VE's 2013 Shootout." The event will also be webcast live in HD and moderated by our staff. Select questions and comments will be passed to our panel of experts for reply.

Our Shootout has proven to be a ‘must attend’ event among true HD enthusiasts and industry leaders, and this year the Shootout has continued to gain in popularity so you can expect to see many of the top industry VIPs participating. With the great advancements of LED and PDP technologies, this will be a great year for flat panel displays. 

Many big announcements and surprises are planned so if you are not attending in person be sure to mark your calendar so you can participate online with our HD webcast.

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## ALMFamily

Being the weekend after LSAF, I will likely not make it there, but count me in for the webcast!


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## Jungle Jack

Robert Zohn said:


> Our 2013 Flat Panel HDTV Shootout evaluation event will be held in our new store at 35 Popham Rd, Scarsdale, NY as follows:
> 
> Day one, 6:00 PM EST, Friday, May 10th and Day two, 6:00 PM EST, Saturday, May 11th 2013.
> 
> We'll have up to 70 individuals attending and participating so if you are interested please send me an email with the subject "can I have a seat at VE's 2013 Shootout." The event will also be webcast live in HD and moderated by our staff. Select questions and comments will be passed to our panel of experts for reply.
> 
> Our Shootout has proven to be a ‘must attend’ event among true HD enthusiasts and industry leaders, and this year the Shootout has continued to gain in popularity so you can expect to see many of the top industry VIPs participating. With the great advancements of LED and PDP technologies, this will be a great year for flat panel displays.
> 
> Many big announcements and surprises are planned so if you are not attending in person be sure to mark your calendar so you can participate online with our HD webcast.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> -Robert


Robert,
I cannot wait to read the findings of this year's Shootout. You really are doing a fantastic service for all HT enthusiasts. I highly recommend having a 2013 HDTV Southwest Florida Shootout.
Best,
J


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## mechman

Robert - I can probably moderate the chat room on Friday if need be. I can't on Saturday but maybe Joe could?

Looking forward to it!! :T :T


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## Robert Zohn

mech, nothing would make me happier than to have you moderate our live HD video chat room, but you'll have to be at the Shootout to do so.

Can you attend?

-Robert


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## mechman

Robert Zohn said:


> mech, nothing would make me happier than to have you moderate our live HD video chat room, but you'll have to be at the Shootout to do so.
> 
> Can you attend?
> 
> -Robert


No. I did this silly thing called head coaching hockey this year and it burned up too much leave. And I work on Saturdays. :sad: One of these years I should be able to get to it Robert. But I don't see it happening in the near future.


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## tele1962

Robert has Dewayne (D-Nice) confirmed he is going to be there?


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## polakis

I am very curious to see the F8500vsVT60vsZT60 results...


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## Robert Zohn

We're opening registration to forum members to attend and participate in our 9th annual Flat Panel Shootout Evaluation. The Shootout will be held at our new Scarsdale, NY store at 6pm, Friday, May 10th and 6pm, Saturday, May 11th.

Participants who are selected can attend either day, but not both days as seats are limited.

Send me an email if you are interested in attending.

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> We're opening registration to forum members to attend and participate in our 9th annual Flat Panel Shootout Evaluation. The Shootout will be held at our new Scarsdale, NY store at 6pm, Friday, May 10th and 6pm, Saturday, May 11th.
> 
> Participants who are selected can attend either day, but not both days as seats are limited.
> 
> Send me an email if you are interested in attending.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> -Robert


I would have LOVED to go but Robert, as you know, I will be getting off a cruise ship in Los Angeles on the day of the Shootout.

Very discouraging. Personally, don't tell my wife, I would rather be in Scarsdale, New York at 6pm on the 10th of May.

I will anxiously be waiting to see all the numbers.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
It might be time to go North to the big city. I recently purchased a Lexus LX470 that gets 13 to the gallon so I think driving is out of the equation, but there are tons of flights from both Sarasota, Fort Myers, and Tampa nonstop to LaGuardia.
Best,
Jack


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## Robert Zohn

Jack, ^^ that would be great! We'll gladly arrange to have you picked up and bring you back to the airport.

Congrat's on the beautiful new Lexus!

Hope to meet you are the Shootout and have you help us choose the new "King of HDTV"

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

Below text generated on Panasonic's 60" ST60 w/optional Viera Electronic Touch Pen TY-TP10U










Want to have some real serious fun and learn about every major 2013 Flat Panel HDTV? Sign up today to participate in the world's only Flat Panel Shootout evaluation event.

Enjoy

-Robert


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## NYPete

Now that's cool. The Electronic Touch Pen on the new Panasonics seem like a neat feature - you can do your own telestrating during hockey or other sports. We all know better than the announcers, right? At least we can have fun with it. 

Looking forward to the flat panel shootout this year. The VT 50 was spectacular last year, while I think Samsung took a little step back compared to the year before. It will be interesting to see how the new Panny VT60 and Samsung F8500 compare to the VT50. Reports out of CES were stellar. The shootout this year is also important I think to get an idea of the state of the art and the future for LCD development, particularly since Sharp doesn't seem to be going forward with the Elite line (no new model in 2 years?). 

Robert and his family are incredibly wonderful hosts for this event, and in addition to being such an important event (because no one else does anything like it), it is so much fun to be able to talk about the technology and current state of the display world with other enthusiasts and some of the top professionals in the business as well.


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## Robert Zohn

Hi NYPete, thanks for the very nice post and your kind words. A/V has been a lifetime passion and I enjoy sharing the knowledge with interested folks. 

I love the Shootout and each year it's fun for me to assemble the very best flat panels and butt them up agents each-other so we can carefully and accurately evaluate them. 

I have some very special plans to make this the best Shootout event we have ever accomplished. Have you signed-up to attend this year? 

-Robert


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## NYPete

Hi Robert,

I just sent you an email to sign up for the shooutout. The surprises are great - like when you unveiled your personal Pioneer Kuro hiding behind the painting to unofficially compare to the Elite and other top TVs. Very James Bond and very awesome.


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## AboutTreeFiddy

Robert,

Is the ZT60 going to be in the shootout?


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## Robert Zohn

NYPete said:


> Hi Robert,
> 
> I just sent you an email to sign up for the shooutout. The surprises are great - like when you unveiled your personal Pioneer Kuro hiding behind the painting to unofficially compare to the Elite and other top TVs. Very James Bond and very awesome.


Thanks Pete! I enjoyed your email and you are in. 

-Robert



AboutTreeFiddy said:


> Robert,
> 
> Is the ZT60 going to be in the shootout?


I can't announce the displays that are in the Shootout at this time, but I can tell you we are working closely with Panasonic in regard to the ZT60 participating at the evaluation event.

-Robert


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## surfmlb

Robert Zohn said:


> Below text generated on Panasonic's 60" ST60 w/optional Viera Electronic Touch Pen TY-TP10U
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Want to have some real serious fun and learn about every major 2013 Flat Panel HDTV? Sign up today to participate in the world's only Flat Panel Shootout evaluation event.
> 
> Enjoy
> 
> -Robert


Will that create a burned in image If left like that for a long time?


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## Robert Zohn

Yes, ^^ so don't leave any static image on the screen for long periods of time. Especially a new PDP and one that is as bright as the yellow lettering I used.

-Robert


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## AboutTreeFiddy

Robert Zohn said:


> I can't announce the displays that are in the Shootout at this time, but I can tell you we are working closely with Panasonic in regard to the ZT60 participating at the evaluation event.
> 
> -Robert


Thanks Robert. I look forward to see the participant list when it is finalized and announced.


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## mdanderson

I always look forward to these Shootouts and watching them on the web. I hope the Panasonic ST60 will be in the lineup because I am leaning towards this set as my next hdtv. I look forward to the other Panasonic plasmas you do end up having there. 

Thank you Robert for having this annual event.


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## Robert Zohn

Since I've had a lot of folks asking if the ZT60 will be included in our 2013 Flat Panel Shootout, I will confirm that it will be included.

I can't announce all of the models that will be in the Shootout, but the 65" ZT60 will be a contestant.

I'll also have the VT60 in the Shootout, and it will be butt up to the ZT60 and Samsung F8500. 

Let the games begin....

-Robert


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## NYPete

That really is a heavyweight lineup of plasmas!

All three have gotten great word of mouth and write-ups since CES. Last year's Panny VT50 was such a spectacular TV that it is hard to image these being better but early returns say that is the case. Shaping up to be an outstanding and fascinating shootout!


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## Jungle Jack

Robert,
That is wonderful news to read that the ZT60 will be among the participants. You are truly doing a fantastic service to all videophiles and HT enthusiasts with your Shootout.
All the best,
Jack


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks Jack! I love doing the Shootout.

Here's a nice article that just came out in Residential Systems. Please share and like it.

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

Okay HTS members I need your advice about an important decision pertaining to our Shootout evaluation event. Here's my dilemma...

I had planned on putting in Sony's HX950, but unfortunately Sony has discontinued that model. So our choices are the 4k UHD X900A or Sony's highest end 1080p full HD W802A.

The dilemma is that the Shootout has only flagship series, but if we put the X900A it will be the only 4k UHD panel in the event and that's kind of unfair to all of the other displays.

My tentative decision is to put the highest-end W802A 1080p on the Shootout wall to compete with all of the other 1080p displays, but to also have the 4k UHD X900A on an adjacent wall just to show it off and do a brief comparison with the same Shootout wall content, but not to include it in the Shootout evaluation.

I can't post on AVS Forum or HDJ, but I will post this on Blu-ray.com and HDF as I would love to have as many a/v enthusiasts' feedback as possible.

Thanks for your help.

-Robert


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## ALMFamily

Robert Zohn said:


> Okay HTS members I need your advice about an important decision pertaining to our Shootout evaluation event. Here's my dilemma...
> 
> I had planned on putting in Sony's HX950, but unfortunately Sony has discontinued that model. So our choices are the 4k UHD X900A or Sony's highest end 1080p full HD W802A.
> 
> The dilemma is that the Shootout has only flagship series, but if we put the X900A it will be the only 4k UHD panel in the event and that's kind of unfair to all of the other displays.
> 
> My tentative decision is to put the highest-end W802A 1080p on the Shootout wall to compete with all of the other 1080p displays, but to also have the 4k UHD X900A on an adjacent wall just to show it off and do a brief comparison with the same Shootout wall content, but not to include it in the Shootout evaluation.
> 
> I can't post on AVS Forum or HDJ, but I will post this on Blu-ray.com and HDF as I would love to have as many a/v enthusiasts' feedback as possible.
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> -Robert


I think your tentative decision is a good one Robert - just make sure that everyone knows up front why the 4k unit is there and you should be golden IMO.


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## mvision7m

Robert Zohn said:


> Okay HTS members I need your advice about an important decision pertaining to our Shootout evaluation event. Here's my dilemma...
> 
> I had planned on putting in Sony's HX950, but unfortunately Sony has discontinued that model. So our choices are the 4k UHD X900A or Sony's highest end 1080p full HD W802A.
> 
> The dilemma is that the Shootout has only flagship series, but if we put the X900A it will be the only 4k UHD panel in the event and that's kind of unfair to all of the other displays.
> 
> My tentative decision is to put the highest-end W802A 1080p on the Shootout wall to compete with all of the other 1080p displays, but to also have the 4k UHD X900A on an adjacent wall just to show it off and do a brief comparison with the same Shootout wall content, but not to include it in the Shootout evaluation.
> 
> I can't post on AVS Forum or HDJ, but I will post this on Blu-ray.com and HDF as I would love to have as many a/v enthusiasts' feedback as possible.
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> -Robert


Hi Robert, 

Your tentative plan seems the most logical considering the circumstances. I do agree that putting one 4K panel in a comparison where all the others are 1080P makes things unfair to the extent of the (much) higher resolution of the X900A. While there are obviously many other factors in determining picture quality than just pixel count, it still wouldn't be fair I think. In essence, with the HX950 discontinued, doesn't the very next model down become Sony's flagship until they replace it? Just a thought. Really looking forward to seeing the comparison between the ZT60 and the Samsung F8500.


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## NYPete

Robert Zohn said:


> Okay HTS members I need your advice about an important decision pertaining to our Shootout evaluation event. Here's my dilemma...
> 
> I had planned on putting in Sony's HX950, but unfortunately Sony has discontinued that model. So our choices are the 4k UHD X900A or Sony's highest end 1080p full HD W802A.
> 
> The dilemma is that the Shootout has only flagship series, but if we put the X900A it will be the only 4k UHD panel in the event and that's kind of unfair to all of the other displays.
> 
> My tentative decision is to put the highest-end W802A 1080p on the Shootout wall to compete with all of the other 1080p displays, but to also have the 4k UHD X900A on an adjacent wall just to show it off and do a brief comparison with the same Shootout wall content, but not to include it in the Shootout evaluation.
> 
> I can't post on AVS Forum or HDJ, but I will post this on Blu-ray.com and HDF as I would love to have as many a/v enthusiasts' feedback as possible.
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> -Robert


I think your proposed solution is a good one Robert. The day will come when the best 1080p TVs will have to face off against the best 4K UHDs to see which is superior, but I don't believe that day is here yet. I think for fairness in the shootout, it should be only 1080p TVs, but it is a nice preview of the future if the X900A is available on a side wall for a comparison, but not competition.

Doesn't Sony have a W900A 1080p TV this year - is that not out yet? It is interesting that Sony is dropping full array backlit TVs from even their highest lines, and going edge-lit all the way. To my eyes, they seem to do edge-lit better than anyone else in recent years, so the W802A should be a real contender in the shootout, at least among the LCDs (yes, plasma bias there but not prejudice - based on the shootout results over the years).


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## Jungle Jack

Robert Zohn said:


> Okay HTS members I need your advice about an important decision pertaining to our Shootout evaluation event. Here's my dilemma...
> 
> I had planned on putting in Sony's HX950, but unfortunately Sony has discontinued that model. So our choices are the 4k UHD X900A or Sony's highest end 1080p full HD W802A.
> 
> The dilemma is that the Shootout has only flagship series, but if we put the X900A it will be the only 4k UHD panel in the event and that's kind of unfair to all of the other displays.
> 
> My tentative decision is to put the highest-end W802A 1080p on the Shootout wall to compete with all of the other 1080p displays, but to also have the 4k UHD X900A on an adjacent wall just to show it off and do a brief comparison with the same Shootout wall content, but not to include it in the Shootout evaluation.
> 
> I can't post on AVS Forum or HDJ, but I will post this on Blu-ray.com and HDF as I would love to have as many a/v enthusiasts' feedback as possible.
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> -Robert


Hello,
If nothing else, it would be quite illustrative to find out how UHD's handle 1080p/24. While of course the Sony will upsample to its native resolution, it will still be 1080p/24 and with 4K source material not being widely available (an issue I do not see changing anytime soon) this makes the addition of a 4K HDTV that much more worthwhile in my estimation. While no doubt if fed a UHD source, the Sony will have a major advantage, but the state of 4K does not seem that much different to me than circa 1998 1080i.
Best,
Jack


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## mechman

I'll echo what others have said, your tentative plan is sound. Put the W802A in the shootout but have the 4K X900A there as well but not part of the shootout. It would be very interesting to see how the 4K model compares to the others. :T


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## Robert Zohn

Thank you all for the posts, PMs, and emails! All of which has been very helpful in making our decisions.

Hope to meet many of you at the Flat Panel Shootout evaluation event and to those who can not attend in person, please watch our live HD webcast.

-Robert


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## lgroveman

*Re: Value Electronics 9th annual Shootout event*

Hi Robert,
I would encourage you to please INCLUDE the Sony 4K in the shootout for the following reasons:

While everybody is correct that it is not fair to compare 4K content to 1080P and lower resolutions it is fare to test this set and its upscaling capabilities. The question myself and others is asking is the 720p, 1080i,1080p upscaling to 4K worthwhile in terms of picture quality. While we all know no more real detail is there can Sonys expertise in the 4K world payoff in this regard. Also is the Triluminos display really something to rave about. You and I have spoken recently (to refresh your memory Im down on Long Island) about the Sharp Elite and Samsung F8000s. While 7K is a lot of money for a TV there are many people who have spent that much on the 70 elite for its Full Local Array Dimming and others have spent similar money on the Samsung 75ES9000 and probably will for the 75F8000. Im waiting on you and the others on this forum to make me with my final decision and in that regard it is my own selfishness for this request but at the end of the day if a 4K TV that costs as much as some of the best 1080P TVs and can produce images using CURRENT CONTENT then this is something that should be considered by all IMHO.
Thanks again for all your help Robert,
Lloyd


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## lgroveman

*Re: Value Electronics 9th annual Shootout event*

I meant to say can produce Phenomenal images using current content


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## Robert Zohn

*Re: Value Electronics 9th annual Shootout event*

lgroveman, as of this moment Sonys 4k UHD XBR-65X900A will be included. We have not made a final decision if the participants will be permitted to vote on any of the UDH models, but they will be there for reference.

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

*Re: Value Electronics 9th annual Shootout event*

I just listed the displays that will be competing in our Flat Panel Shootout. Take a look.

-Robert


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## Jungle Jack

*Re: Value Electronics 9th annual Shootout event*



lgroveman said:


> Hi Robert,
> I would encourage you to please INCLUDE the Sony 4K in the shootout for the following reasons:
> 
> While everybody is correct that it is not fair to compare 4K content to 1080P and lower resolutions it is fare to test this set and its upscaling capabilities. The question myself and others is asking is the 720p, 1080i,1080p upscaling to 4K worthwhile in terms of picture quality. While we all know no more real detail is there can Sonys expertise in the 4K world payoff in this regard. Also is the Triluminos display really something to rave about. You and I have spoken recently (to refresh your memory Im down on Long Island) about the Sharp Elite and Samsung F8000s. While 7K is a lot of money for a TV there are many people who have spent that much on the 70 elite for its Full Local Array Dimming and others have spent similar money on the Samsung 75ES9000 and probably will for the 75F8000. Im waiting on you and the others on this forum to make me with my final decision and in that regard it is my own selfishness for this request but at the end of the day if a 4K TV that costs as much as some of the best 1080P TVs and can produce images using CURRENT CONTENT then this is something that should be considered by all IMHO.
> Thanks again for all your help Robert,
> Lloyd


Lloyd,
I made the same point a few posts back and agree with you.
Best,
J


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## hawaiind

*Re: Value Electronics 9th annual Shootout event*



lgroveman said:


> Hi Robert,
> I would encourage you to please INCLUDE the Sony 4K in the shootout for the following reasons:
> 
> While everybody is correct that it is not fair to compare 4K content to 1080P and lower resolutions it is fare to test this set and its upscaling capabilities. The question myself and others is asking is the 720p, 1080i,1080p upscaling to 4K worthwhile in terms of picture quality. While we all know no more real detail is there can Sonys expertise in the 4K world payoff in this regard. Also is the Triluminos display really something to rave about. You and I have spoken recently (to refresh your memory Im down on Long Island) about the Sharp Elite and Samsung F8000s. While 7K is a lot of money for a TV there are many people who have spent that much on the 70 elite for its Full Local Array Dimming and others have spent similar money on the Samsung 75ES9000 and probably will for the 75F8000. Im waiting on you and the others on this forum to make me with my final decision and in that regard it is my own selfishness for this request but at the end of the day if a 4K TV that costs as much as some of the best 1080P TVs and can produce images using CURRENT CONTENT then this is something that should be considered by all IMHO.
> Thanks again for all your help Robert,
> Lloyd


+1

I am really having a problem deciding between the 75" F8000 or the Sony 65" 4K. Basically the same price so features are important.

If the upconvert on the Sony is great I would be willing to lose the extra 10". There will be 4K content in the next few years.

Your opinion is greatly Valued (pun intended). Will be very interested in the results.


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## Robert Zohn

We just launched our Youtube trailer for the upcoming Flat Panel Shootout.






Take a look. And if you like what you see sign up to attend and help us choose the 2013 "King of HDTV"

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## tripplej

Just curious, I don't see any Sharp products listed in the shootout. Did they not make the cut?


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## Robert Zohn

Sorry some things can't be disclosed at this time. Wait for the Flat Panel Shootout announcement.

-Robert


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## tripplej

Thanks for the update Robert. Will wait for the shootout to see who wins!


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## B- one

Maybe someone should start a countdown. But not me I don't want to take my socks off don't ask about the fingers!


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## Robert Zohn

Well with just 7 days to the Flat Panel evaluation we just received our two 65" ZT60s this afternoon. I actually met the plane from Tijuana Mexico on the JFK tarmac to load the precious cargo into our waiting company van.

Of course, I immediately started the break-in slides so we can have as many hours on these displays as possible before our panel of expert calibrators do their magic. 

http://tc-p65zt60.com/images/albums/NewAlbum_62fe7/tn_1200_389da36e866c3e4e12102417b333db87.JPG.png

http://tc-p65zt60.com/images/albums/NewAlbum_62fe7/tn_1200_389da36e866c3e4e12102417b333db87.JPG.png

http://tc-p65zt60.com/images/albums/NewAlbum_62fe7/tn_1200_de88a183cdf5823088c328953020b327.JPG.png










Let the games begin...

-Robert


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## Gotchaa

Robert Zohn said:


> Well with just 7 days to the Flat Panel evaluation we just received our two 65" ZT60s this afternoon. I actually met the plane from Tijuana Mexico on the JFK tarmac to load the precious cargo into our waiting company van.
> 
> Of course, I immediately started the break-in slides so we can have as many hours on these displays as possible before our panel of expert calibrators do their magic.
> 
> http://tc-p65zt60.com/images/albums/NewAlbum_62fe7/tn_1200_389da36e866c3e4e12102417b333db87.JPG.png
> 
> http://tc-p65zt60.com/images/albums/NewAlbum_62fe7/tn_1200_389da36e866c3e4e12102417b333db87.JPG.png
> 
> http://tc-p65zt60.com/images/albums/NewAlbum_62fe7/tn_1200_de88a183cdf5823088c328953020b327.JPG.png
> 
> Let the games begin...
> 
> -Robert


Looking forward to it, when is Kevin calibrating the panel?


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## Robert Zohn

All of the Shootout panels will be calibrated by D-Nice, David Mackenzie, Ed Johnson and Kevin Miller. It's a group effort to be sure we get the best possible calibration possible.

D-Nice is the lead calibrator on the VT60 and ZT60. We're calibrating the ZT60 last so it gets as many hours on it as possible.

-Robert


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## B- one

May be we can get some open box deals on the shootout displays.


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## Robert Zohn

Bring your Amex. 

-Robert


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## B- one

I can't use Amex my boss might not like it. I will be using visa if you accept it , please don't make me get a money order.


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## JimP

I think the reason Robert mentioned Amex is so that you get the warranty extension that comes with using it.


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## B- one

My visa offers that as well. They recently added a clause to double manufactures warranty that's what they claim at least never really looked into it to see provides the service if required but it doesn't cost any more so it can't hurt.


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## Robert Zohn

Correct gents, I always recommend Amex or Gold VISA cards as you get an additional 1 year warranty. 

With Samsung when you buy from an authorized dealer and register online at www.samsung.com you get an additional 3 months warranty so you end up with 2 years 3 months in-home warranty on all parts and labor at no charge!

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

David Mackenzie arrived and just took this picture in our store.










-Robert


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## redsandvb

NYPete said:


> Doesn't Sony have a W900A 1080p TV this year - is that not out yet?


Sorry if off topic a bit, but if anyone knows it's gotta be you guys...

Isn't this post right? Aren't there the XBR-##*X*900A 4K models and the KDL-##*W*900A coming from Sony this year?

Thanks!


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## Helvetica Bold

I've been keeping a close eye on the W900A it's due out at the end of May early June. It replaces the HX850. It's been getting awesome reviews from a few European sites that got a hold of the TV.


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## Robert Zohn

redsandvb said:


> Sorry if off topic a bit, but if anyone knows it's gotta be you guys...
> 
> Isn't this post right? Aren't there the XBR-##*X*900A 4K models and the KDL-##*W*900A coming from Sony this year?
> 
> Thanks!


Yes, we're including Sony's XBR-65X900A 4k HDTV in our 2013 Flat Panel HDTV Shootout evaluation.

You can tune into our live HD webcast at 6pm EST here.

-Robert


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## redsandvb

Helvetica Bold said:


> I've been keeping a close eye on the W900A it's due out at the end of May early June. It replaces the HX850. It's been getting awesome reviews from a few European sites that got a hold of the TV.


Thanks for the info. 



Robert Zohn said:


> Yes, we're including Sony's XBR-65X900A 4k HDTV in our 2013 Flat Panel HDTV Shootout evaluation.
> 
> You can tune into our live HD webcast at 6pm EST here.
> 
> -Robert


Thanks for answering. I read that about the XBR, that'll be interesting. Sorry, I should have been more clear, I was wondering about the W900A and if it was still coming out. The reply above answers my question...Unless you happen to know more about it? :sn:

I've been scared to death that the XBR8 I have will develop the black/vertical line problem I've seen posted all over the avsforum owner's thread.


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## Robert Zohn

Twice magazine and Dealerscope cover our Flat Panel HDTV Shootout evaluation and the editors are attending the event.

Good reading!

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

For those who are not attending our Flat Panel Shootout in person here's the link to our live HD webcast that will be moderated by our a/v staff. 

To all a/v enthusiasts across the globe, don't miss the opportunity to participate in this event. 

-Robert


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## kamenoff

Thank you Robert to you and all guys involved in organizing the shoot-out. Can't wait....


----------



## JimP

Is there a discussion thread somewhere about the shootout?


----------



## NYPete

Isn't this the discussion thread for the shootout?

Getting excited about the shootout. This seems to be a banner year for HDTVs with great reviews of the Panny and Sammy plasmas coming out very recently, including by David MacKenzie who will be at the shootout. David also reviewed the Samsung F8000 LED-LCD and it seems to be a terrific TV also. I will be watching as much as possible tonight, and attending tomorrow. 

I can't wait to see what the final mystery TV is - could Robert have gotten one of the OLED panels from LG or Samsung? They have been promising them since last year, and I understand they finally starting selling a few in Korea - maybe Robert is the first in the US to get one????? Or could it be a new announcement of the next Elite model by Sharp? Are they out of that business or are they coming out with a new model two years after they had such fanfare for their first model Elites? Oh wait, I bet it is one of the W900 series LED-LCD from Sony - their top of the line 1080p TV - would be a great comparison to the X900A Ultra HD. Oh, the anticipation. Only a few more hours.


----------



## JimP

NYPete said:


> Isn't this the discussion thread for the shootout?


That's what I would have thought but with so few postings, I thought that maybe everyone was on a different thread.


----------



## tripplej

I am interested in seeing how one of these do..

Sony XBR-65X900A

Panasonic TC-P65ZT60
Panasonic TC-P65VT60

Samsung PN64F8500
Samsung UN60F8000

Can't wait to see how they perform head to head.


----------



## polakis

Great shootout Robert! I watched it all from Greece! ZT,VT,F8500 are very close!!!


----------



## JimP

polakis

Christos Anesti!


----------



## B- one

I wonder if Robert will post the panasonic discount mentioned last night. Otherwise the phones are going to be busy for sure.


----------



## JimShaw

B- one said:


> I wonder if Robert will post the panasonic discount mentioned last night. Otherwise the phones are going to be busy for sure.


Robert said that one had to call to get that info.


----------



## B- one

JimShaw said:


> Robert said that one had to call to get that info.


I know but we can keep secrets right? How was the cruise by the way?


----------



## JimShaw

B- one said:


> I know but we can keep secrets right? How was the cruise by the way?


B- one

It was great, thanks.

Went through the Panama Canal, touched Aruba, Columbia, Costa Rica and Guatemala. Guatemala was very hot and very, very humid. While my wife was shopping, I found a small bar in the shopping area that was air conditioned, with lounge chairs. A perfect spot to sit and have a cold beer while the women shopped. A husband's dream spot in such a climate.

Got home just in time to watch the Shootout. Not as good as being there but a lot better then missing all together.

Yes, we can keep a secret. If you call Robert and find out what the secret gift is, post it. We won't tell any one else.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Hi all, thanks for the very kind remarks! 

Tonight is a must see event. The special guests are very very special and I don't want anyone to miss this evenings event. If you go to the link now you can see last night's event, tonight's Shootout evaluation starts at 6PM EST. Here's the live HD webcast url.

Enjoy!

-Robert


----------



## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> Hi all, thanks for the very kind remarks!
> 
> Tonight is a must see event. The special guests are very very special and I don't want anyone to miss this evenings event. If you go to the link now you can see last night's event, tonight's Shootout evaluation starts at 6PM EST. Here's the live HD webcast url.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> -Robert


Already sitting at my computer waiting


----------



## kamenoff

Guys, any news about this year winner? It seems that last year's event better organised as concern the final results...


----------



## JimShaw

kamenoff said:


> Guys, any news about this year winner? It seems that last year's event better organised as concern the final results...


Everyone was up extremely late last night. Let them sleep in. It's Sunday. Maybe they went to church.


----------



## polakis

Robert it was a great shootout! Thank you very match for the presentation! I watched both 2 days from Athens Greece! Its was 01.00-05.00 past midnight!!! I must say that from the internet i was most impressed with the samsung 64F8500...


----------



## DavidHir

Hi Robert,

Really enjoyed the event watching it online.

Question: the Samsung rep briefly mentioned the evolution kit would allow year-to-year picture quality improvements for the F8500. I am still trying to understand this - I assume anything software based could be enhanced, but the kit is also somewhat hardware based I was told. On any rate, what has Samsung said about this as on the surface it almost sounds as if one can upgrade each year without having to purchase a new set and considering the F8500 was just built from ground up, that core would be around for a while I would think. Thanks.

Second question: D-Nice mentioned still seeing floating blacks on the F8500 along with some banding seen on faces - is Samsung going to address both of these with firmware updates?

Thanks!


----------



## Robert Zohn

Hi David, thanks for joining HTS! Glad to see you here. 

Samusng's evolution kit has the latest software and operating system as well as the new 1023 quad core processor. So you get all of the menu, smart apps and features of the 2013 flagship series, plus the increased web browsing speed enhancements as well as the new 2013 upgraded video processing. 

The new video processor will slightly improve the picture quality, but the since the 2012 panel is not changed you will still have much of the screen uniformity issues and may not have the jet black cropping bars that the "F" series enjoys.

Interestingly, you can skip one or more years and chose to upgrade to the latest evolution kit in future years if you don't care much for the next generation's enhancements and fixes, but do want the 2014 or later upgrades.

Very cool idea from Samsung.

Hope you become an active member here as I always enjoy reading your posts.

-Robert


----------



## Robert Zohn

kamenoff said:


> Guys, any news about this year winner? It seems that last year's event better organised as concern the final results...


Sorry for the delay in getting the final results tabulated and posted. We've had extremely long and hard days for the past few weeks. The last two nights we left the store after 2:00 AM and of course we get started every day at 8:00 AM or earlier. No breaks, just non stop hard work.

We took most of today off to catch up on sorely needed sleep and just relaxing in our back yard discussing the Shootout event. But we are in the store now verifying the ballots against the attendees list and tabulating the results. 

I expect we'll be ready to announce the results later this evening and I'll post it here and on my Panasonic, Samsung PDP, Samsung LED and our main website.

-Robert



JimShaw said:


> Everyone was up extremely late last night. Let them sleep in. It's Sunday. Maybe they went to church.


Thanks Jim, mostly slept in a littler longer than usual, relaxed in our beautiful home and back yard and reflected and gave thanks for our lucky lives, health and family. All in all a great day filled with love and celebration for my amazing wife, Wendy with our kids.

-Robert



polakis said:


> Robert it was a great shootout! Thank you very match for the presentation! I watched both 2 days from Athens Greece! Its was 01.00-05.00 past midnight!!! I must say that from the internet i was most impressed with the samsung 64F8500...


Thanks polakis! We had a blast putting this event together and hosting it. It's a labor of love for us.

-Robert


----------



## Dub King

Hi Robert,

I had a great time at the shootout and I can't wait to see the results! Nice to meet you and I look forward to the next time.

Best regards,

Mark


----------



## DavidHir

Robert Zohn said:


> Hi David, thanks for joining HTS! Glad to see you here.
> 
> Samusng's evolution kit has the latest software and operating system as well as the new 1023 quad core processor. So you get all of the menu, smart apps and features of the 2013 flagship series, plus the increased web browsing speed enhancements as well as the new 2013 upgraded video processing.
> 
> The new video processor will slightly improve the picture quality, but the since the 2012 panel is not changed you will still have much of the screen uniformity issues and may not have the jet black cropping bars that the "F" series enjoys.
> 
> Interestingly, you can skip one or more years and chose to upgrade to the latest evolution kit in future years if you don't care much for the next generation's enhancements and fixes, but do want the 2014 or later upgrades.
> 
> Very cool idea from Samsung.
> 
> Hope you become an active member here as I always enjoy reading your posts.
> 
> -Robert


Hi Robert,

Thanks a lot. Maybe next year I can make it to the event. I had a TON of fun watching and listening to yourself and the panel over the two nights. The passion and excitement with everyone just comes through. Awesome stuff.

So, just a follow-up question to the Samsung evolution kit.

Assuming the 2014 panel for the F8500 is pretty much the same (and I would assume it will be since they just built this thing from ground up) one could get the new picture quality enhancements (in addition to the features) next for their F8500? I am just making sure I understand how the upgrade works as this sort of allows one to upgrade without buying an entire new display.

Very cool stuff.

I am still deciding between the F8500 and VT60, but will give you a call once make up my mind.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Dub King said:


> Hi Robert,
> 
> I had a great time at the shootout and I can't wait to see the results! Nice to meet you and I look forward to the next time.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Mark


Thanks Mark, I enjoyed meeting you and appreciate all of your contributions at the event. 

-Robert



DavidHir said:


> Hi Robert,
> 
> Thanks a lot. Maybe next year I can make it to the event. I had a TON of fun watching and listening to yourself and the panel over the two nights. The passion and excitement with everyone just comes through. Awesome stuff.
> 
> So, just a follow-up question to the Samsung evolution kit.
> 
> Assuming the 2014 panel for the F8500 is pretty much the same (and I would assume it will be since they just built this thing from ground up) one could get the new picture quality enhancements (in addition to the features) next for their F8500? I am just making sure I understand how the upgrade works as this sort of allows one to upgrade without buying an entire new display.
> 
> Very cool stuff.
> 
> I am still deciding between the F8500 and VT60, but will give you a call once make up my mind.


Yes, to everything you said especially about your attending next year. 

The only exception would be if Samsung changed the panel you would not appreciate any of the advantages of the next gen panel. However, I do not expect any change in Samsung's PDP for 2014 and quite a few years forward as the new 2013 panel has been expertly developed and completely redesigned from the ground up for the future.

-Robert


----------



## NYPete

The event was fantastic as always. Thanks again to Robert, Wendy, their family and everyone else who worked very hard for a very long time to put this together. No one else is doing this, and it really is a service to all us videophile geeks as well as professionals in the industry. Thanks again Robert.

Everyone is excited to see the results, but I think Robert and family deserve a day off after the whole thing. And it was Mother's Day after all. 

I was there on Saturday night, and as Bill Schindler mentioned, I think we broke a record for how long the event lasted. I have to say that the length was because of all the fantastic demos/tests, explanations, and discussions - it was a chock full event. In fact I would say this was the most organized and orderly shootout yet - Robert et al are really getting the running of this event down to a science. 

By the way, having Dr. Weber there is a real treat, not only because of his position as an originator of plasma, but because he really contributes a lot of information, a lifetime of experience, and an interesting viewpoint to the event.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Thank you NY Pete! All very appreciated. 

I just posted some personal photos on one of my websites.

We'll crown the new "King of HDTV" tomorrow.

Thanks to all who helped make this our best evaluation event ever and that includes all of the attendees! 

Enjoy the photos. I have hundreds more and we'll select a few more tomorrow.

-Robert


----------



## endlessender

Hi Robert,

I first wanted to thank you for hosting this event and for all you contribute to the community.

I posted in another thread regarding F8500 but thought I'd ask here as well...

...if the issue of the F8500's full screen, 3D brightness fluctuations came up at the shootout. I'm curious in the Samsung reps spoke about it or are aware.

I'm obviously (and hopefully understandably) very keen to pass on or receive any information about this problem. I might even have some troubleshooting information Samsung might find useful.

I'd be extremely grateful for any insight you might be able to offer.

Sincerely.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Thanks for the kind words. No this did not come up at the Flat Panel Shootout event. However, I did report this to the right folks at Samsung and assuming it can be repeated by Samsung engineers I would expect a firmware fix in the next few weeks. 

If you give me the 3D BD title and scene and I pass that along.

-Robert


----------



## bawheid

Hi Robert

A big thanks to you and your team for hosting a fine event again.

I lost the stream on day 2 (actually living in Scotland meant that 2 late nights were too much for me - fell asleep at pc :doh.

Video of day 2 is not up yet so I am looking forward to results of shootout.


All the best

Scott


----------



## Ken Ross

A great event as always Robert. Thanks much! What would we do without you and Wendy?


----------



## DavidHir

Robert,

Just one last question: do you know if Samsung is going to issue an update for the floating blacks that was reported. There was also a slight grayscale issue too...just wondering if that will also be addressed. Thanks!


----------



## endlessender

Robert Zohn said:


> Thanks for the kind words. No this did not come up at the Flat Panel Shootout event. However, I did report this to the right folks at Samsung and assuming it can be repeated by Samsung engineers I would expect a firmware fix in the next few weeks.
> 
> If you give me the 3D BD title and scene and I pass that along.
> 
> -Robert


Hi Robert,

I cant tell you how much appreciate your willingness to hep out here. Let me provide some detailed information on reproducing the problem. I have also included a BD title below with detailed descriptions of exactly where one can see this behavior. Just a couple general notes first:


 The "pops" I'm describing are (in almost all cases) a one step brightness _increase_ that seems to change hue somewhat as well.
In general the problem shows on scenes that tend to be somewhat monotone and/or indoors.
In the vast majority of cases, it happens directly after a cut where the scene changes. 
Cinema Smooth must not be enabled, otherwise the problem does not present itself. The problem is best scene with Motion Judder Canceller set to "Standard" (Off and Smooth will also work but sometimes the pops manifest at slightly different times or intensity)
 Dynamic Contrast on High seems to keep a percentage of the pops from happening, but some are still apparent even with this setting engaged. It does change the behavior though. For instance, Chapter 1 in the BD title below is fixed with Dynamic Contrast on High but not Chapter 5.
 Decreasing contrast settings to something like 70 or so seems to reduce or eliminate the pops.

Here are details as to where one can easily view these brightness pops.

BD Title: Prometheus 3D
Chapter 1:
@2:47 Mist from waterfall toggles bright/dark
@3:16 = full screen brightness change when figure's face shows on screen (this is arguably the prime example)
@3:22 = full screen brightness change apparent if you look at the water in background
Chapter 2
@6:06 = full screen brightness pop right when text "Isle of Skye" shows on screen
Chapter 5
@15:14 = full screen brightness pop
@15.43 = full screen brightness pop
@15:46 = full screen brightness pop
@16:06 = full screen brightness pop
@17:03 = full screen brightness pop (very slight)

The problem also manifests rather regularly in Tangled 3D, Brave 3D, and (i'm told) Alice in Wonderland 3D

I hope this information is of use to somebody. As you can see, it's quite prevalent, especially in some titles.

If there is anything more I can offer please don't hesitate to contact me via PM or otherwise. I'm more than happy to offer whatever information I can for Samsung to be able to identify and hopefully eradicate this issue.

My sincere thanks again.


----------



## B- one

Soon I can order my new display just waiting for the final results still looking like f8500 for me.


----------



## polakis

Samsung 64F8500 won the shootout!!!! Its the king of 2013 HDTVS!!!!

64F8500 rules!!!!!


----------



## Robert Zohn

Here's the results of the attendees and panel of experts votes. Just in case anyone misses my comments here they are:

Here are the 2013 Flat Panel Shootout Evaluation final results based on the votes of the attendees and our panel of experts. This year it's been a difficult task to declare a winner. Here's why:

The results came out so close that it is difficult to award one winner. The ZT60 won the popular vote in important categories, black and overall pq, but the F8500 had the highest scores overall and also won in important categories, like contrast ratio and day modes. In the past nine years it has always been very clear who won our Flat Panel Shootout event.

The attendees liked the higher light output of the F8500, so when tabulating the ballots, the F8500 is the winner. They saw the F8500 as even sharper, which I would assume is also because of the brighter image in low and high ambient light conditions. Many participants told me the F8500 whites looked cleaner, brighter and in their opinion, whiter.

So the public has spoken and we therefore crown Samsung’s F8500 series PDP the new "King of HDTV" for 2013.

We also recognize and congratulate all of the development engineers at Samsung for making the most significant advancement in PDP technology this year.

Please also take note that the panel of experts selected the VT60/ZT60 as their personal choice. But even their choice was only a slight preference. As DeWayne put it to me.... “To me and just for example, if the VT60 is a 10 the F8500 is a 9 as I don’t care about panel brightness above 30fL” 

However, we strongly recommend all consumers to use the same logic that the three expert panelists explained during our closing Q&A: end users should make their buying decision based on viewing habits. The three top contenders are all so very close this year that I don't see a clear winner and these three panels deserve our top recommendation equally.

In fact, all of the 2013 displays in our event this year are exceptional and have made significant advancements in picture quality, build quality and design. So my sincerest congratulations to Sony, Panasonic and Samsung for stepping up the game on PDP and LED display technology advancements.

-Robert


----------



## B- one

All right were going plasma I can only hope not to advertise for lifetime or Netflix will have to get the wife on board to watch out for that stuff.


----------



## kamenoff

Robert, once again, thank you making this event possible. Just a short note that there is a mistake in the Expert pannel votes of VT60 and ZT60....
Cheers.


----------



## mvision7m

Wow! Great stuff. As a (very happy) VT30 owner (pro calibrated by Kevin Miller), I was really hoping the ZT/VT series sets would be the ones to finally out perform the KUROs of yore. Well, 2009 any way. 

The Samsung plasma sets that I have seen do always seem to look just a little bit sharper than the Panasonics including mine but, to my eye, the VT series always had a more compelling image in spite of that fact. Although my living room gets a lot of ambient light during the day and considering my VT30 doesn't get nearly as bright as a VT50/VT60/ZT60 and certainly the F8500, I've never had much of a problem viewing in those bright conditions. At night however, the living room gets pitch black which clearly benefits the VT's dimmer image. I'm looking forward to reading more in depth reviews of the F8500 and the VT/ZT. 

Thanks to Mr. Zohn and everyone involved for providing such a great service and congrats to Panasonic for producing very serious performers/contenders and to Samsung for producing reigning 2013 HDTV King, the F8500. 

I think I'd still have a VT/ZT over the Samsung as the extra light output the F8500 is capable of isn't really a priority for me personally.


----------



## Mixman

Thanks Robert for hosting a great event, it was definitely worth my trip from Central NJ. Also, a big thanks to Wendy and the rest of your family for the great hospitality every time I go. Big thanks go out to the calibrators: Kevin, DNice and David for the hard work put into getting these sets ready and say high to Lisandro for me too.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Thanks everyone! We love sponsoring the annual event.

-Robert


----------



## Motoman

Hi Robert,

Sounds like the shootout was a big success. Congrats 

I'm not sure where all this leaves me. As I've told you in the past I have trouble watching a plasma set. My last Panasonic plasma (4 years ago) I had caused some sort of issues with my eyes. It made my eyes feel dry and scratchy and sensitive to lights and TV watching. Was worse the more TV I tried watching. Finally after numerous Doctor and Eye Doctor visits on a hunch I got rid of the plasma and bought a Samsung UN55B8500 and all my problems went away. I really like the UN55B8500 but would like to move up to a larger set. I almost bought a 60" Elite last year and decided to hold off to see what the new models had to offer. It is looking now like I should have bought the Elite when I had a chance. I'm not sure about a F8000 set after reading some of the forums and user impressions.

Any suggestions?

Jim


----------



## Radtech51

I missed the dang HD shootout, didn't know it was this weekend. Anyone have a link to the video recording of the event? thx.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Jim, I would recommend the F8000, it's the best LED TV available. This week's Shootout incentive offer expires Friday and we're shipping all sizes immediately.

Take a look at CNET and Twice's articles on our 2013 Flat Panel Shootout event.

-Robert


----------



## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Congrats to Samsung for winning the audience vote and be crowned the overall winner at the 2013 Shootout. I am truly happy to see a PDP win again.

I could not agree more about taking the time to compare the Panasonic, Sharp, Sony, et al offerings. Especially with the ZT/VT60 Series considering just how close the results were and with the Calibrators choosing the Panasonic's as the winner.

Robert, I am so happy to see so much industry coverage devoted to the event. 
Best,
Jack


----------



## B- one

Pulled the trigger on a f8500 64 inch with there calibration setup today Robert made the transaction quick and painless he told me there is new firmware update soon and would ship the panel out after that to get the best cal results they can.


----------



## JimShaw

B- one said:


> Pulled the trigger on a f8500 64 inch with there calibration setup today Robert made the transaction quick and painless he told me there is new firmware update soon and would ship the panel out after that to get the best cal results they can.



Ditto with me.

Now that I no longer need to read, view and search out TV's, I won't have anything to do. Life might get a little boring until I discover the next thing to research.


----------



## B- one

JimShaw said:


> Ditto with me.
> 
> Now that I no longer need to read, view and search out TV's, I won't have anything to do. Life might get a little boring until I discover the next thing to research.


How about the first movie to watch on it!


----------



## Robert Zohn

B- one said:


> Pulled the trigger on a f8500 64 inch with there calibration setup today Robert made the transaction quick and painless he told me there is new firmware update soon and would ship the panel out after that to get the best cal results they can.


Hey B- one, I did not know that was you. Thank you so very much for supporting my company with your business. You will enjoy the VIP treatment you so well deserve.

Best regards,

-Robert


----------



## B- one

Robert Zohn said:


> Hey B- one, I did not know that was you. Thank you so very much for supporting my company with your business. You will enjoy the VIP treatment you so well deserve.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Robert


Guilty as charged and glad to give back to someone who gives so much to others price isn't everything service is thank you and your team sir.


----------



## B- one

Ps that tablet will be a great up grade over an iPhone all the pictures on this site will be nice to see without having to zoom in all the time. We only have one laptop and its the wife's if I leave her stuff alone she lets me make the "informed" decisions on our gear. Maybe I can talk her into new dual subs!! Okay I know better than that one can dream right. A great new display trumps a laptop any day!!


----------



## Radtech51

Robert Zohn said:


> Jim, I would recommend the F8000, it's the best LED TV available. This week's Shootout incentive offer expires Friday and we're shipping all sizes immediately.
> 
> Take a look at CNET and Twice's articles on our 2013 Flat Panel Shootout event.
> 
> -Robert


Hi Robert, can you PM me or list the price difference between the F8000, ST60 & VT60? 

PS: Do you have a link to the HD Shootout video recording? thx. :sn:


----------



## DavidHir

B- one said:


> Pulled the trigger on a f8500 64 inch with there calibration setup today Robert made the transaction quick and painless he told me there is new firmware update soon and would ship the panel out after that to get the best cal results they can.


Any description on what that firmware update will contain? Thanks.


----------



## endlessender

DavidHir said:


> Any description on what that firmware update will contain? Thanks.


I'm curious as well.


----------



## B- one

DavidHir said:


> Any description on what that firmware update will contain? Thanks.


Didn't ask Robert just knows its coming and seeing I'm having them do there qc break in calibration deal he mentioned the update he expected in the next couple of weeks and he wanted to have it on the set before calibration to give the best picture it can.


----------



## DavidHir

B- one said:


> Didn't ask Robert just knows its coming and seeing I'm having them do there qc break in calibration deal he mentioned the update he expected in the next couple of weeks and he wanted to have it on the set before calibration to give the best picture it can.


Thanks, B-one. Perhaps Robert could chime in on what the next update entails.


----------



## JimShaw

DavidHir said:


> Thanks, B-one. Perhaps Robert could chime in on what the next update entails.


Without really knowing for sure, there is a possibility that it has something to do with light pops in 3D.


----------



## DavidHir

There have been some reports of floating blacks too I would like to see addressed.


----------



## JimShaw

DavidHir said:


> There have been some reports of floating blacks too I would like to see addressed.


I could be wrong but weren't the floating black problem fixed with the last up date???????


----------



## DavidHir

JimShaw said:


> I could be wrong but weren't the floating black problem fixed with the last up date???????


To my understanding, that fixed (to a large degree) the brightness pops people were seeing. A separate issue.


----------



## JimShaw

DavidHir said:


> To my understanding, that fixed (to a large degree) the brightness pops people were seeing. A separate issue.


Possible so.


----------



## NYPete

Wanted to post some thoughts on the shootout - sorry it has taken me a while but it has been a busy week. I preface my comments by saying they are only my opinions and observations - I don't believe they are scientific fact and neither should you.

I was at Saturday night's shootout and I think I am fairly unbiased in my views - I try to be fair to all the TVs and give them all a fair shake. I have a Pioneer Kuro KRP-600M but don't feel my very existence depends on that TV remaining the reference forever. I will be very happy the day there is a TV that is much better than the Kuro that makes me feel I need to upgrade my main TV. Based on what I saw at the shootout, that day may be coming soon - perhaps as soon as next year. In the last few years, I have recommended and helped friends and relatives buy Panasonic plasmas, Samsung plasmas, LG LCDs, and Samsung LCDs - whatever fits the situation and budget of the person I am trying to help.

First off, I want to thank Robert, his family and the guys who did the calibrations and work to set up the shootout. Great job as always. 

Second, congratulations to Samsung and the F8500 plasma on winning the shootout. Samsung clearly put a lot of resources into developing this plasma and it is a fantastic TV. As someone said at the shootout, the light output of this TV is a revolution in plasma development. I couldn't agree more. The increased light output was evident compared to the also excellent Panasonic VT60 and ZT60. Samsung deserves acknowledgement and praise for their work this year. That said, I believe all three plasmas are truly terrific TVs - there is a much bigger gulf from any of the LCDs to the plasmas than between the plasmas. I truly can't imagine anyone not being happy with the F8500, ZT60, or VT60. How close these TVs are was really brought home to me after the official shootout when plasmas were compared to the Kuro 50" using the Kuro experience disk. Yes, the Kuro could achieve slightly better black, but all four of these TVs were so incredibly close on this black level torture test material in a dark environment that without the others next to it, I don't think you could be disappointed in the black level. It was also clear to me that the F8500, VT60 and ZT60 are clearly better than the Kuro in a moderately lit room - the filters on the newer TVs have advanced in the last 5 years. This moderately to brightly lit room difference is larger than the difference between these TVs in a black cave in my opinion.

As for the LCDs, in almost everything, the plasmas were better. Even for those that like lots of light output, the F8500 now does that, so I don't see much reason to buy one of these LCDs unless you just don't like plasma. The differences between the 3 LCDs and 3 plasmas could not have been more evident than it was on the scene from The Dark Knight Rises - very dark scene with lots of blacks in a dark room. Batman and Cat woman's costumes were shiny, black and full of detail on the plasmas. Even straight on with the LCDs, they couldn't match the depth of the plasmas. I feel this is due not just to very black blacks, but sufficient shadow detail - all three plasmas were in another category compared to the LCDs.

I was unpleasantly surprised at the quality of the Sony. I was looking forward to seeing the 4K display that goes for $7000 in 65" size, especially since Sony has designed some very good LCDs in recent years. What a disappointment. This TV simply could not produce a good black level - much worse than other recent Sony TVs. You think for $7000 they could build a full array local dimming TV even with 4K resolution, but I guess not. Motion was not good on this TV either, and even though you expect poor off-access viewing from an LCD panel, especially a non-IPS panel, this TV had the worst off-angle performance of any medium to high end TV I have seen in several years. Literally moving a foot or two to the side would significantly degrade the picture. On the bright side, at the end we put on some 4K material from the special Sony server and on some of the bright images, particularly still images, the resolution was amazing looking. Very impressive clarity and detail. Problem was you could only notice a significant difference from 1080p if you were about 5 feet from the display. By the time you were 8 feet back, you lost this benefit on the 65" display - on an 84" you would be able to be further back and still see the advantage. The other problem was that on dark scenes such as from The Amazing Spider Man, the poor black level hurt the picture more than the extra resolution helped it. My takeaway from this TV is that the regular indicators of making a great TV - black level, contrast ratio, color accuracy, motion resolution, processing, etc. are more important to get right than having 4K (no reason you can't have both but we don't have that yet - maybe Oled will do that). Other takeaway is that other than the resolution, this is a very ordinary panel - not high end by LCD standards at all. If you want a Sony, find an HX950.

The Panasonic WT60 was not good by high end TV standards, particularly in black level, but the off-angle performance of the IPS panel should not be dismissed. If you are getting an LCD, and you sit dead center, get a Samsung or other VA panel for the better blacks. If you have several people watching it, you really need to consider an IPS panel as any advantage of the VA panels disappears quickly at even small off-angle viewing and the IPS starts to look much better.

Sorry for the long post - I get paid by the word usually. Just kidding. Sort of.


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## endlessender

JimShaw said:


> Possible so.


I believe Samsung is on the 3D brightness pop issue now.


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## JimShaw

endlessender said:


> I believe Samsung is on the 3D brightness pop issue now.


That is what I had in my mind. But my mind has not been that good lately.


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## mvision7m

NYPete said:


> Wanted to post some thoughts on the shootout - sorry it has taken me a while but it has been a busy week. I preface my comments by saying they are only my opinions and observations - I don't believe they are scientific fact and neither should you.
> 
> I was at Saturday night's shootout and I think I am fairly unbiased in my views - I try to be fair to all the TVs and give them all a fair shake. I have a Pioneer Kuro KRP-600M but don't feel my very existence depends on that TV remaining the reference forever. I will be very happy the day there is a TV that is much better than the Kuro that makes me feel I need to upgrade my main TV. Based on what I saw at the shootout, that day may be coming soon - perhaps as soon as next year. In the last few years, I have recommended and helped friends and relatives buy Panasonic plasmas, Samsung plasmas, LG LCDs, and Samsung LCDs - whatever fits the situation and budget of the person I am trying to help.
> 
> First off, I want to thank Robert, his family and the guys who did the calibrations and work to set up the shootout. Great job as always.
> 
> Second, congratulations to Samsung and the F8500 plasma on winning the shootout. Samsung clearly put a lot of resources into developing this plasma and it is a fantastic TV. As someone said at the shootout, the light output of this TV is a revolution in plasma development. I couldn't agree more. The increased light output was evident compared to the also excellent Panasonic VT60 and ZT60. Samsung deserves acknowledgement and praise for their work this year. That said, I believe all three plasmas are truly terrific TVs - there is a much bigger gulf from any of the LCDs to the plasmas than between the plasmas. I truly can't imagine anyone not being happy with the F8500, ZT60, or VT60. How close these TVs are was really brought home to me after the official shootout when plasmas were compared to the Kuro 50" using the Kuro experience disk. Yes, the Kuro could achieve slightly better black, but all four of these TVs were so incredibly close on this black level torture test material in a dark environment that without the others next to it, I don't think you could be disappointed in the black level. It was also clear to me that the F8500, VT60 and ZT60 are clearly better than the Kuro in a moderately lit room - the filters on the newer TVs have advanced in the last 5 years. This moderately to brightly lit room difference is larger than the difference between these TVs in a black cave in my opinion.
> 
> As for the LCDs, in almost everything, the plasmas were better. Even for those that like lots of light output, the F8500 now does that, so I don't see much reason to buy one of these LCDs unless you just don't like plasma. The differences between the 3 LCDs and 3 plasmas could not have been more evident than it was on the scene from The Dark Knight Rises - very dark scene with lots of blacks in a dark room. Batman and Cat woman's costumes were shiny, black and full of detail on the plasmas. Even straight on with the LCDs, they couldn't match the depth of the plasmas. I feel this is due not just to very black blacks, but sufficient shadow detail - all three plasmas were in another category compared to the LCDs.
> 
> I was unpleasantly surprised at the quality of the Sony. I was looking forward to seeing the 4K display that goes for $7000 in 65" size, especially since Sony has designed some very good LCDs in recent years. What a disappointment. This TV simply could not produce a good black level - much worse than other recent Sony TVs. You think for $7000 they could build a full array local dimming TV even with 4K resolution, but I guess not. Motion was not good on this TV either, and even though you expect poor off-access viewing from an LCD panel, especially a non-IPS panel, this TV had the worst off-angle performance of any medium to high end TV I have seen in several years. Literally moving a foot or two to the side would significantly degrade the picture. On the bright side, at the end we put on some 4K material from the special Sony server and on some of the bright images, particularly still images, the resolution was amazing looking. Very impressive clarity and detail. Problem was you could only notice a significant difference from 1080p if you were about 5 feet from the display. By the time you were 8 feet back, you lost this benefit on the 65" display - on an 84" you would be able to be further back and still see the advantage. The other problem was that on dark scenes such as from The Amazing Spider Man, the poor black level hurt the picture more than the extra resolution helped it. My takeaway from this TV is that the regular indicators of making a great TV - black level, contrast ratio, color accuracy, motion resolution, processing, etc. are more important to get right than having 4K (no reason you can't have both but we don't have that yet - maybe Oled will do that). Other takeaway is that other than the resolution, this is a very ordinary panel - not high end by LCD standards at all. If you want a Sony, find an HX950.
> 
> The Panasonic WT60 was not good by high end TV standards, particularly in black level, but the off-angle performance of the IPS panel should not be dismissed. If you are getting an LCD, and you sit dead center, get a Samsung or other VA panel for the better blacks. If you have several people watching it, you really need to consider an IPS panel as any advantage of the VA panels disappears quickly at even small off-angle viewing and the IPS starts to look much better.
> 
> Sorry for the long post - I get paid by the word usually. Just kidding. Sort of.


Good, informative post. Thank you.


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## NYPete

mvision7m said:


> Good, informative post. Thank you.


You're welcome. I was trying to be thorough but not rambly.


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## kamenoff

NY Pete, two questions:

1 Was the 3D performance assessed during the Shootout? If it was, which of the TVs had the best 3D performance.
2 For you, which was your favourite TV?

For me Plasmas always had better PQ than the LCDs, but I could never understand why they don't make bigger sizes? I think that if costumer is ready to pay for a product, it should be provided. It is obvious that the Companies are loosing money on LCDs, why don't they consider bigger size plasmas?


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## Robert Zohn

Home Theater Magazine features a very nice article on our Flat Panel Shootout evaluation event. 

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## NYPete

kamenoff said:


> NY Pete, two questions:
> 
> 1 Was the 3D performance assessed during the Shootout? If it was, which of the TVs had the best 3D performance.
> 2 For you, which was your favourite TV?
> 
> For me Plasmas always had better PQ than the LCDs, but I could never understand why they don't make bigger sizes? I think that if costumer is ready to pay for a product, it should be provided. It is obvious that the Companies are loosing money on LCDs, why don't they consider bigger size plasmas?


1. The night I was there 3D performance was not examined. It isn't part of the judging/official part of the shootout, but was mentioned a few times as a possibility to look at after the formal shootout. But I think people wanted to see 4K native content on the Sony more than 3D, and after that it got late and 3D never happened. The expert calibrators in response to a question of which plasma would be best for 3D, very clearly preferred the Samsung F8500 because of its light output ability and Panasonics apparently don't show 1080 lines of resolution in 3D all the time.

2. My favorite TV was the Samsung F8500. If I watched ALL the time in a black room, I might prefer the ZT60/VT60, but the differences there are very small compared to a large difference in daylight which at least some of my viewing is in, so for me the F8500 fits best. As for the VT60 versus ZT60 - they are extremely close and if I was going to buy one I would have to look into it further to make a determination if I can tell any difference watching them. I mean they are nearly identical.


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## kamenoff

Thank you NYPete!
It is interesting the difference between the Expert pannel and the popularity vote on Samsung F8500. The results for VT60/ZT60 are similar but results for Samsung were way off. I was just wondering if the expert did not put some sort of perssonal preference?


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## NYPete

Kamenoff,

That is a good observation. You are right that the audience and expert scores are nearly identical on the VT60/ZT60 and more divergent on the F8500. The experts also liked the LCDs much more than the audience in Day Mode watching in moderate light. Both groups had similar relative scores among the plasmas (Samsung significantly higher than the Panasonics), but the audience preferred the three plasmas over the LCDs by a lot even in daylight while the experts actually preferred all three LCDs over the Panasonics and the Sony and Samsung LCDs were tied with the Samsung plasma for best in day mode. 

As for personal preference, I think the experts as well as most of the audience are trying to be fair and neutral, however I suppose it's possible unconscious bias plays in - impossible to tell. That's why we have the measured objective numbers from the calibration reports to see how the TVs measured, and then the subjective opinions of the audience and experts. Nothing alone tells the whole story.

I think the fact that the experts liked the LCDs in day mode much more than the audience counters statements by some people that the calibrators only love plasma and are unfairly biased away from LCDs. I think they vote and give their opinions based on what they see, not an allegiance to one particular technology.


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## Robert Zohn

Our 2013 Flat Panel Shootout videos are just beginning to go up on our Youtube page.

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## Slickman

Can you please tell me how to view the videos? It says they are private, thanks.


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## Robert Zohn

Unfortunately, the videos had to come down to fix an audio issue. 

Sorry, but we'll be back up this evening and hopefully with a few more segments.

-Robert


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## Slickman

OK, thank you very much. Can't wait to check them out.


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## Robert Zohn

Funny and very well written 2013 Flat Panel Shootout article by Chris Boylan of Big Picture Big Sound. Check this one out!

Our VE Shootout Youtube videos have just started to be uploaded. Many will be uploaded throughout the night so keep checking back over the next few days to see all of the segments.

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## Radtech51

Wish I could have been their Robert! Just can't wait until your all OLED HD Shootout someday we all know it's coming to that, now that will be very interesting indeed.


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## mjw

Hi Robert,
At the shootout this year the calibrators said that the ZT60 struggled to output more than 30 ft lamberts. On
Hdguru they are reporting being able to reach 47 ftl using the High Panel setting in the Advanced Menu (30 ftl is the max at the Low Setting). If this is correct, then it sounds like the ZT60 may be able to match the F8500 in terms of light output. Would one of the calibrators be able to clarify this point?

Thanks!


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## Robert Zohn

Hi mjw, Actually I believe HD Guru used the THX Bright mode along with some other settings to drive the panel brighter. We did not use the THX Bright mode in our evaluation as we compare the displays in the best modes. The ZT60/VT60 THX Bright mode gamma is too low, hence much of the detail is lost and most of the settings are locked out or reduced to just high/low vs. the ten point settings and color management controls we have in the custom and professional ISF modes.

Our Flat Panel HDTV Shootout evaluation event sets-up all of the displays to produce the best possible picture accuracy. 

We'd like to see Panasonic upgrade the ZT60 and VT60 panel brightness in the best picture quality modes. Our Shootout helps the manufacturers identify and understand what's needed to be the best display.

-Robert


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## DavidHir

Hi Robert,

Any recent word from Samsung on addressing the floating blacks?


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## Robert Zohn

Hi David, not sure which firmware version you tested for floating blacks, but the last update all but eliminated the tinniest bit of floating black level. In fact, you cannot see any floating blacks unless you have the 2.35:1 or 4:3 cropping bars on the display. The 4:3 side bars exhibit the most black level variation.

I always suggest setting the cropping bars to gray to eliminate the threat of burning in the edge of the bars so it's truly a non issue for most folks.

FYI, one way to totally eliminate the very minimal cropping bars floating blacks is to set the "Black Optimizer" to off.

-Robert


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## DavidHir

Hey Robert,

Are you referring to update 1104.3 that came out a couple of days ago? Did they make more enhancements with 1104? I didn't try that one yet as I was on 1103. Thanks.


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## DavidHir

Also, it would still be nice if they could do one more update to completely rectify the issue.


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## Robert Zohn

We just put up a small photo album with some photos taken at our 2013 "King of HDTV" award ceremony at Samsung headquarters.

Take a look and like Value Electronics while you're visiting. 

-Robert


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## NYPete

Great pictures Robert. Samsung definitely cares about the bragging rights with the big Value Electronics and King of HDTV on the bank of monitors as you walk into their US headquarters. That's great to see. 

Selling millions of TVs (among other things) is what these companies are in business for, but it's a wonderful thing when companies take pride in their products and produce really great products that advance the science and art even if they don't sell as well to the mass market. And its great that in the videophile world you have created an award that recognizes that and rewards companies for their efforts. The Value Electronics King of HDTV has become a prestigious award and it would be great to see them incorporate it into their advertising, etc. It's a win for everyone.


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## B- one

Maybe a free trophy with purchase. I could see it on one of my speakers.


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> Maybe a free trophy with purchase. I could see it on one of my speakers.


I had to go back and take another look. You are right. It would look good.


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## Robert Zohn

Three of the nicest posts I have read in years  Thanks gents!

-Robert


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## B- one

New display should arrive Friday!!!!!


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> New display should arrive Friday!!!!!


Did you order from VE?


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## B- one

New display should arrive Friday!!!!!


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## B- one

JimShaw said:


> Did you order from VE?


Yes good luck on yours.


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> Yes good luck on yours.


Did you do the QC & Cal?


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## B- one

JimShaw said:


> Did you do the QC & Cal?


Yes when they called they said it was being calibrated and thought I would get it early next week. They called right back to let me know it should arrive on Friday only problem for me is my shelf to go over center channel isn't ready this is the stand we bought with a spare tv on it.


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> Yes when they called they said it was being calibrated and thought I would get it early next week. They called right back to let me know it should arrive on Friday only problem for me is my shelf to go over center channel isn't ready this is the stand we bought with a spare tv on it.


Mine should not be too far behind.

I am like you. When it arrives, I won't be able to use it. I will pull out the 55" that is in the cabinet and then I will have to build a sturdy wall inside the cabinet to hang the mount on. After it arrives, It will take a few days for the wall is ready for the TV


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## B- one

JimShaw said:


> Mine should not be too far behind.
> 
> I am like you. When it arrives, I won't be able to use it. I will pull out the 55" that is in the cabinet and then I will have to build a sturdy wall inside the cabinet to hang the mount on. After it arrives, It will take a few days for the wall is ready for the TV


I was going to wall mount but was worried my daughter would knock the center channel down if it was sitting on the spare speakers stands we have. Now I can put our equipment in the stand and I really like having the center channel up it smacks us right in the face now with our old set up it was only about 12 inches off the floor now it's 32 inches off the floor.


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> I was going to wall mount but was worried my daughter would knock the center channel down if it was sitting on the spare speakers stands we have. Now I can put our equipment in the stand and I really like having the center channel up it smacks us right in the face now with our old set up it was only about 12 inches off the floor now it's 32 inches off the floor.


Exciting. Let me know when it arrives


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## JimShaw

Received a note from Robert...

*Hi Jim,

Your beautiful 64" F8500 shipped today and will be delivered on Monday, June, 10th. I'll email you the YRC tracking PRO # and customer service phone # tomorrow.

Thanks for all you do for us and giving me the opportunity to earn your business!

Best,

-Robert*


Exciting!


m


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## B- one

JimShaw said:


> Received a note from Robert...
> 
> Hi Jim,
> 
> Your beautiful 64" F8500 shipped today and will be delivered on Monday, June, 10th. I'll email you the YRC tracking PRO # and customer service phone # tomorrow.
> 
> Thanks for all you do for us and giving me the opportunity to earn your business!
> 
> Best,
> 
> -Robert
> 
> Exciting!
> 
> m


Congrats now we'll see who uses there's first


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> Congrats now we'll see who uses there's first


Just received a call from the transport company asking if I will be home this Monday the 10th.

That was FAST. Robert said today, Thursday the 4th, that is was being shipped. That same day I got a call saying Monday is the delivery day.

5 days from the time it went to be shipped until delivery.

Simply amazing.

How amazing? let me give you a comparison...

On May 14th, 2013 the state of California put into the mail a check that they owed me. I received it today, Thursday, June 6th. That letter took 24 days to come from Northern California to Southern California, about 400 miles. 

When I was younger and rode a bicycle, I did ride that distance in two days. One time, I was actually on a team of four riders that was in a distance contest to see how far we could go in 24 hours. I was fast at short distances, So, I let the pace until I burnt out at 200 miles. The remaining three continued on. Dropping the third at 300 miles and the remaining two covered 400 miles in 22 hours.

Boy, the post office is slow.



m


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## B- one

My delivery was just pushed back to Monday. . Could not have set it up anyways, now we wait.


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> My delivery was just pushed back to Monday. . Could not have set it up anyways, now we wait.



I am near Temecula in So. Cal. Where are you?


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## B- one

JimShaw said:


> I am near Temecula in So. Cal. Where are you?


Michigan


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> Michigan


Since we are getting it on the same day, I thought "wouldn't that be wild if both were on the same truck"


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## B- one

JimShaw said:


> Since we are getting it on the same day, I thought "wouldn't that be wild if both were on the same truck"


They said I could pick it up this weekend, I guess they don't deliver on the weekends. Just told them to drop it off Monday, just to busy to pick it up.


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## B- one

It's here!!!!!.


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## JimShaw

B- one said:


> It's here!!!!!.


You lucky guy!

I have to wait all day maybe into the late afternoon for delivery. I sit here, dong nothing, waiting.


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## B- one

Center channel? I don't need no stinking center channel.


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