# Another Face Off Thread



## russ.will (May 10, 2006)

Over on a forum in the Uk is a Fin (moderator edit: Ilkka) who has both an understanding of how a sub works and how to measure one. He has posted a couple of sub test threads from tests he ran during the 4 or so hours of daylight that Finland gets each year. He doesn't make too many subjective comments as they are, well - subjective. But it does provide a good comparison of a range of subs available in the USA and Europe.

You'll get a look at the BK Electronics subs, whose value for money is undoubted. They OEM manufacture subs for the likes of REL, MJ Acoustics and Ruark. For comparrison, the XLS-200 is a direct competitor for the REL Q-200 but retails for £289 against the £599 of the REL. The Monolith which you'll hear mentioned from time to time is also here. Over here it is very slightly more expensive than the SVS PB10-ISD but boasts more flexibility and a wider range of room friendly finishes. They are directly comparable. BK sell online only.

The BK XLS-200DF, BK Monolith FF, SVS PB-12 Ultra (20, 16 & 12Hz tunes) and SVS 20-39PC+ (20, 16 & 12Hz tunes) are here.

Part 2 contains the SVS PB10-ISD (ported and sealed) and the Axiom EP-600 here.

Part 3 is due soon, but they're still waiting for sunrise.

Russell


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## Fincave (Apr 20, 2006)

It is summer here now in Finland and so the sun basically does not set at all Am currently checking the Finnish forum daily/hourly to see if part three has come out, no luck yet. Once the Finnish version comes out it should be about a week or so until the English version appears.


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## russ.will (May 10, 2006)

Fincave said:


> It is summer here now in Finland and so the sun basically does not set at all Am currently checking the Finnish forum daily/hourly to see if part three has come out, no luck yet. Once the Finnish version comes out it should be about a week or so until the English version appears.


I was taking the micheal, obviously. My grandparents live in the north of scotland. On their rare warm midsummers nights, there is something special about sitting out at midnight, whiskey in hand looking out to see with light still in the sky.

Keep us posted on the Part III reviews.

Russell


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## Fincave (Apr 20, 2006)

No results yet posted on the Finnish forum! Apparently it is taking a bit longer than was initially thought.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

We (including me) got off topic and this is a forum rule no-no. I don't think there is really a problem with the discussion but it just doesn't belong in this thread or this particular forum.

Maybe a mod can move the particular posts in question to the Off Topic forum and Steve, you can edit your original post to explain what you were addressing.


Edit: moderators note - off topic posts moved to thread "Sub reviewing/reviewer discussion" in the "Shackster Chat Box" forum in the "Off Topic" area.


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## Ilkka (Jun 8, 2006)

Hi guys!

I got both Fincave's and Sonnie's messages, but I thought to post here instead. I've been extremely buzy lately. I started working (summer job) two weeks ago, and 8 hour shifts are pretty tedious for a student like me... :blush: And when I get home I have to start compiling the latest subwoofer measurement session results. So I really don't have a lot of time to read the forums. Sorry if I have missed someone's PM.

But the results are definitely coming, hopefully next sunday (11th) is The Day.  Unfortunately I won't (can't) post the results here. I will open a dedicated (English) subwoofer test sub-forum at http://www.dvdplaza.fi/forums/index.php (similar to Av Talk), where the results will be posted. Maybe you haven't heard this, but I tested 23 different subwoofers (both commercial and DIY) (plus a couple more for different tunings etc.), so posting all that data similarly like I did before (single forum thread) won't work. I need a dedicated sub-forum where I can post each sub in its own thread. Hopefully you will understand. I will definitely post a link as soon as the results are up. Should be fun once again.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Hey Ilkka... welcome to the Shack!

We can fix you up a dedicated sub-forum with no problem... it will take about 30 seconds. You can mod it and it would be easy to cut and paste the test info.


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## Ilkka (Jun 8, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> Hey Ilkka... welcome to the Shack!
> 
> We can fix you up a dedicated sub-forum with no problem... it will take about 30 seconds. You can mod it and it would be easy to cut and paste the test info.


Thanks Sonnie!

I thank you for the suggestion of giving me my own forum section, but I don't think it will happen. I REALLY want to have the results only on one forum (and I've already chosen the DVDPlaza.fi). But you can post a sticky with direct links to there etc. Hopefully you all will understand.


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## russ.will (May 10, 2006)

Ilkka said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> I got both Fincave's and Sonnie's messages, but I thought to post here instead. I've been extremely buzy lately. I started working (summer job) two weeks ago, and 8 hour shifts are pretty tedious for a student like me... :blush: And when I get home I have to start compiling the latest subwoofer measurement session results. So I really don't have a lot of time to read the forums. Sorry if I have missed someone's PM.
> 
> But the results are definitely coming, hopefully next sunday (11th) is The Day.  Unfortunately I won't (can't) post the results here. I will open a dedicated (English) subwoofer test sub-forum at http://www.dvdplaza.fi/forums/index.php (similar to Av Talk), where the results will be posted. Maybe you haven't heard this, but I tested 23 different subwoofers (both commercial and DIY) (plus a couple more for different tunings etc.), so posting all that data similarly like I did before (single forum thread) won't work. I need a dedicated sub-forum where I can post each sub in its own thread. Hopefully you will understand. I will definitely post a link as soon as the results are up. Should be fun once again.


Ilkka,

Many thanks for making an appearance here. Your data, or at least that I understood before my head exploded, was instrumental in the purchase of my last sub. I look forward to the results of the next group test (European) stroke face off (N. American). PM me here or at AV Forums in the UK as soon as an English version is available and I'll post a link to it if it helps you. Either way, you'll find this community far more appreciative and tollerant than some others you may have experienced of late.

Kind Regards

Russell


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

So good to see your post here Ilkka!

I am looking forward to seeing the new test results. Sorry to not have you post them here but understand that your dvdplaza.fi forum may like all the traffic that your very thorough test results will draw :T.

Much appreciated!
Bob


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

Good to see you around again Ilkka, and I'm very excited to hear about your testing results. Could you give us some preliminary information about the DIY subs before publishing the results, like driver, alignment, size, and amp, or would you prefer to keep that all under wraps until you post the full results?


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## Ilkka (Jun 8, 2006)

SteveCallas said:


> Good to see you around again Ilkka, and I'm very excited to hear about your testing results. Could you give us some preliminary information about the DIY subs before publishing the results, like driver, alignment, size, and amp, or would you prefer to keep that all under wraps until you post the full results?


I prefer the second choice. 

But I can say that unfortunately I didn't manage to measure any "big boys". One guy with 15" Tumult and another with 15" SS RL-p "chickened" only a few days before the D-day... Maybe next time. I would definitely want to measure a BIG vented DIY sub, similar to yours or Steve nn's and also smaller dual (or more) 15" sealed sub (similar to Mark Seaton's sub). I have a very strong feeling they would make most (if not all) commercial subs look VERY bad...


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

Agreed. Just the aspect of using a discrete, beefy pro amp alone probably makes a pretty big difference, let alone the (better) driver and enclosure properties.


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

Any updates? :dontknow:


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## russ.will (May 10, 2006)

I've been checking the Finish site and as far as I can tell with my non existant Finish language, nothing yet. I can only assume that he's rechecking his data because an SVS didn't top the test. Only joking, but I am keeping an eye on it. I'm sure Fincave will let us know as soon as its up.

Russell


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## Fincave (Apr 20, 2006)

Unfortunately there is not really anything to report. The results are not yet up, am checking everyday. There does seem to be quite a few people anxiously awaiting the results, am sure that they will be well worth the wait!


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## jmprader (Apr 19, 2006)

russ.will said:


> I've been checking the Finish site and as far as I can tell with my non existant Finish language, nothing yet. I can only assume that he's rechecking his data because an SVS didn't top the test. Only joking, but I am keeping an eye on it. I'm sure Fincave will let us know as soon as its up.
> 
> Russell



...certain (non-SVS) reviewers are said to cure that sort of issue with listening tests


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## Sthrndream (Apr 21, 2006)

If you are implying that Ilkka has ANY connection to SVS in ANY way jmprader...I'm sorry but you are mistaken. Of course that never stops the snide comments from coming from certain folks who are more concerned about planting the seeds for yet ANOTHER conspiracy theory rather then letting the actual performance of the product speak for itself. We all know SVS will never "score" very well in certain individual's listening tests. That is the nice thing about microphones...they don't lie...

Tom V.
SVS


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Tom Vodhanel said:


> ...That is the nice thing about microphones...they don't lie...


Yes, let us leave this thread for the technical results. From past history and all reports Ilkka is not doing any subjective subwoofer reviews here -- just mic measured tests. Test issues, results, and techniques are fair game. Ilkka has corrected results in the past in response to valid critiques. But we don't need any mudslinging as to alledged motives for possible mistakes. I know it is tempting to inject humour and smart aleck remarks here, but due to past history it will not be wise for any poster to do it on this subject.

Bob


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## jmprader (Apr 19, 2006)

Tom and Bob:

I have PM'd both of you. 

For the rest of you, make no mistake, there was no intent to move this discussion off the measurement side of things or impugn any person, company or product. My remark was intended as a humorous poke at some reviewers (not one who has ever posted here!) who have ignored or pooh-poohed measurement results by using subjective listening tests.

My apologies to any other posters who felt I intended anything else. It aint so.


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## Fincave (Apr 20, 2006)

According to the thread over at the Finish forum Ilkka hopes to post results tomorrow (Friday), at most 2-3 days from yesterday. Am sure there are a lot of people anxiously waiting, the Finnish thread has been viewed over 41 000 times already with quite a few new posts appearing everyday asking when the results will be up!


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## Fincave (Apr 20, 2006)

Ok, there is now some progress, the new sub forum (subwoofer testit) has been opened at the finnish forum http://www.dvdplaza.fi/forums/index.php but am not able to connect to the site at all, have tried several times over the last 8 hours or so without any success.


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## jmprader (Apr 19, 2006)

I'm sure some of you have taken a first look at Ilkka's work posted on the DVDplaza site, I certainly did.

While I certainly haven't had a lot of time to look and compare, I think this is the type of work product that is worth a tip of the hat, and more to Ilkka. 

General information is well laid out including explanations of testing procedures and caveats. This is the kind of work product that, at least at first glance by a layperson, justs tells it like it is (or, as TV puts it, "micropones don't lie"). Undoubtedly there may be some who taken exception to some aspect or another of the testing and that will show up here or on some other forum (I can't read Finnish, so I don't know if it has started already!), but for now, it's pretty much a 5 star job in my book.

:T


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Ilkka's results in English are here:

Subwoofer testit

I have not yet read everything on it. A warmer day than the last tests seems to have had a few dB diff results for max output over the previous results (as Ilkka has noted) but the freq response results with their reference matched.

Nice work Ilkka utstanding: 

Bob


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Yup... very nice... thanks Ilkka! There is a lot of info to absorb there and all very useful. I wish we could see all the replies/responses, etc., in English though.


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## GregBe (Apr 20, 2006)

Good stuff Illka.

Sonnie, is there anyway to re-title the thread to make it more specific. It would probably draw more interest. Just a thought.

Greg


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## Ilkka (Jun 8, 2006)

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofers/803-dvdplaza-subwoofer-tests-round-3-a.html

I would like to see that thread used for questions and posts regarding the tests.


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## Mark Seaton (Jun 22, 2006)

Sonnie, Since I posted this before seeing the other sticky thread, would you be able to move my posts in this thread and Ilkka's responses to the intended thread?


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Mark Seaton said:


> Sonnie, Since I posted this before seeing the other sticky thread, would you be able to move my posts in this thread and Ilkka's responses to the intended thread?


Done.

Bob


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Hey Bob... should we maybe close/lock this thread now and do like Ilkka suggest and point everyone to the sticky thread???


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

OK. This thread is closed. Use DVDPlaza Subwoofer Tests Round 3 instead. :T 

Bob


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