# Ok drywall ceiling it is!



## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

In the off topic of the carpet thread that went into a tangen, I did some thinking and planning and realized that a drop ceiling would be more expensive than drywall one. So have to do some leveling of the exisiting joist which should be easy and only counted 3 hand holes that will have to go in for shut off valves. Now time to insulate!:T


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

You can build a hatch for the ceiling access. PM me if you want a diagram.


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

Ted White said:


> You can build a hatch for the ceiling access. PM me if you want a diagram.


Thanks, right now in the middle of insulating and it is warm out so just sweating my but off.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

the colors said:


> .... and only counted 3 hand holes that will have to go in for shut off valves. Now time to insulate!:T


You also must have access to all electrical junction boxes (they can not be covered by drywall).


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> You also must have access to all electrical junction boxes (they can not be covered by drywall).


I did count them and it is only 3 the other stuff I can move into the utility room.
When you guys say building walls decoupled from the foundation with those isolation brackets I built my walls a full 12" from the foundation. Now I finished insulating the ceiling WOW big diff without the drywall installed yet. I guess my next challeng is my HT spot does not have a door for its own room. It is sort of another living room in the basement that I am turning into a HT. I noticed that the sound goes right up the stairs like a funnel. Should I get a type of door that is sound proof?


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

You can try an exterior door with weatherstrip. Or two of them such that when closed, they create an airlock.

Decouple the drywall from the joists if possible


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

Ted White said:


> You can try an exterior door with weatherstrip. Or two of them such that when closed, they create an airlock.
> 
> Decouple the drywall from the joists if possible


To late to decouple the walls from the joist's. Does it make that much of a difference if just left the way it is? I will be using the hat channel for the ceiling drywall and that will be connected to the joist also or?


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

I was referring to the ceiling drywall on the joists. Clip + channel would do it.

Walls are fine as-is


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

Ted White said:


> I was referring to the ceiling drywall on the joists. Clip + channel would do it.
> 
> Walls are fine as-is


Sorry I am used to carpentry but not this kind so it's a bit new for me.
What is the web site that sells those clips?:huh:


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

Many places sell many clips. To directly answer your question, we do, though I don't want to come across as a commercial.


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

Ted White said:


> Many places sell many clips. To directly answer your question, we do, though I don't want to come across as a commercial.


Sound away, I would rather buy from you guys since I did join your site.
What I do need is how they are installed in relation to the hat channel and joist's.
Also what is the price and in your opinion are they worth it in sound traveling both ways through the ceiling/floor.:whistling:


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

To be clear, our company is not affiliated with the forum. See the link in my signature. Give us a call if you'd like.


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

Well after doing some homework at that site I feel better about what I am doing. Luckily above the HT area I purchased a higher end carpet and padding and since insulating there is a difference.
Another question how do you join the edges of the drywall to the walls.The hat channel does not go all the way to the corners. Is that ok and I like those Whisper clips, thinking about it.


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

The ceiling clips don't all the way to the wall, but the ceiling drywall does. Right to the studs. THen the wall drywall buts right up to that ceiling drywall. No gap


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

Ok got it!,Now I just need to figure how many clips needed. According to the specs I can space them every 24" down the hat channel and how about side to side spacing?


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

There's a clip calculator there, but essentially you can take the total sq. ft and divide by 5.

Rows of hat channel are spaced every 24" along ceiling. So you look up and see a row every 2 feet.

Lets take a look at just one row of channel. You'd see that there was a clip every 48" along the length of that one row of hat channel.

So not a lot of contact points, and large increase in the flex of that ceiling. Decoupling brings a whole other level of isolation. Nothing more than R19 is needed, from a practical standpoint. Insulation offers a better payback in terms of performance when installed in a decoupled system.

Same for the mass of the drywall. Double 5/8" rock is more effective if mounted on a spring (clips + channel).

The selection of the correct channel is critical. You'll get this locally, but here's an article that emphasizes the importance of proper channel. http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/library/articles/furring_channel_with_resilient_sound_clips/


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

Looks like I need 36 Whisper clips. I have to say spread out over 4ft seems scary but I guess the deflection is what absorbs the noise. So much to learn and when you think you have it figuer out they change the rules.lol:bigsmile:


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

If using the proper channel you're good to go. Unless you exceed two sheets of 5/8". Then you have to change the pattern, with rows every 16" instead of 24"


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

Ted White said:


> If using the proper channel you're good to go. Unless you exceed two sheets of 5/8". Then you have to change the pattern, with rows every 16" instead of 24"


I will be using 1/2 drywall and maybe Green Glue with a second sheet of 1/2. This would be Ok?


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

You really, really want the mass. Lot of work to limit the weight to double 1/2". Makes a big difference especially in the low frequencies.


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

Well I did check out the Whisper clips for the Hat channel and most likely will be buying them.onder: I did a little tinkering and designed my own set sort of. What I did was cut strips of EPDM rubber 1.5" wide by 4" long @ .25" thick and will install under the Hat channel to the floor joist's. Also I made EPDM washers to isolate the screw head from the Hat channel and a steel washer. So essentially the Hat Channel will have the ability to move ever so slightly. I know this is not a tested method but what do you think? I know it will be secure so the sky won't be falling.lol


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

The rubber isn't the significant component in the decoupled clip system. It's the ability of the Drywall Furring Channel to flex without being restrained by screws. 

The system you describe will work equally well with or without the rubber pieces you cut, I'm afraid. This tconcept has been looked at a lot over the years, but does little to nothing. This is why you don't see it done.


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

I may not described it to good but I am going to pre drill the Hat Channel to allow the flexability so as it is not being crushed to the joist's by the screw head. I most likely will buy the clips but I may do this method in the laundry room were there is hard wood floor above and it is not over the HT area. I will get some pics together my wife has them somewhere.


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

You are going to pre-drill slots on all the joist attachment points? 2 per joist? That's 304 slots to cut for a 15 x 24 room. You will also have 2x the contact points with these contact points being more conductive.


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

Ted White said:


> You are going to pre-drill slots on all the joist attachment points? 2 per joist? That's 304 slots to cut for a 15 x 24 room. You will also have 2x the contact points with these contact points being more conductive.


I see the logic now, THE CONTACT POINTS!. The clips use one and mine would be two. Yes I would be pre-drilling all the attachment points two per joist. See told ya I would be buying the clips Now need to do a better more accurate count and level out the joist's. Remember my house was built in 1913! nothing is level.:rofl2:


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

First of all, I admire your cleverness. It's logical to go down the road you have. 

The whole system is made or broken based on on that Hat Channel. It's the weakest point in the drywall suspension. The thought of modifications to it scare me is all.


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

Ted White said:


> First of all, I admire your cleverness. It's logical to go down the road you have.
> 
> The whole system is made or broken based on on that Hat Channel. It's the weakest point in the drywall suspension. The thought of modifications to it scare me is all.


Point taken, when I build somthing I tend to over engineer things..glue it and screw it mentality.:bigsmile: I just looked at those clips and they also have two contact points(Whisper Clips).Which ones do you prefer for ceilings?


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

Screwing the channel to the joists (with or without the rubber you mentioned) is creating a coupled system.

Inserting the channel into the clip array is creating a decoupled system. Much more lossy connection.

In a coupled system, much will be defined by the contact points, their quantity and role in conduction. In a decoupled system, the contacts are less of an issue, and results are determined by the degree of free-flex created by the 25 gauge channel and the essentially non-fastened attachment to the clip.

Clips are not categorized by ceiling clip vs. wall clip. The two piece clips available from many outlets have an advantage in the low frequencies. The Neoprene in the 2-piece clips act to damp the excursion of the components, as well as damp some of the vibration coming from clip components. This is why a two-piece clip tests better than a one piece clip.

There's a lot going on


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

Thank you Sir for all of your help. Do you have sombody as a contact to order these clips from?


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

It's certainly no trouble at all. These are good and common questions. 1 person asks the question that dozens of others are wondering also. It's all very good.

You can follow the link in my signature for more information.


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## bbieger (Sep 15, 2009)

Ted is that your company? You have one of the best websites out there for sound proofing products! I was going to post a link to your site before I realized it was yours. 

Unfortunately headroom in my theater is very limited so I decided not to go with a hat channel setup. But in interest of helping out Mr. the colors, I read in several places that incorrectly installing hat channel and sound clips has been the basis of many a lawsuit. i.E. people or contractors often screw it up. It seems about as straightforward as anything to me but can you shed some light on common mistakes that people make? 

Lastly, I always wondered about the connection between the ceiling and wall sheet rock. Do you leave a little gap and then fill it with flexible acoustic sealant? It seems to me that if you mudded this corner joint you would reduce the amount of movement and thus attenuation of the clipped ceiling.


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

Thanks for the kind words bb.

The most common lawsuits are with Resilient Channel, not clips. Res Channel is notorious at this point. The problem is that there is no standard for the manufacture of this product. No spec at all. So you're left to the whim of a steel bending company. Not the case with Drywall Furring Channel that the clips employ. The Drywall Furring Channel is specified by the Steel Stud Manufacturers Association.

I would recommend not leaving the gap, and keep the joints tight. Seal the second layer


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

I have to say I see some threads were the Hat Channel seems to be to thin. I get what you guys say about wanting the ceiling to be isolated from the joist but the guage steel that I see being used scares me to think that 2 layers of drywall will just stay there.:sweat: I am using a heavier guage steel it may not be what recomended as far as flex goes but it gives me piece of mind.
Before I order my clips I need to run all my wires first and really think about placement of speakers.


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

the colors said:


> I have to say I see some threads were the Hat Channel seems to be to thin.
> 
> ...but the guage steel that I see being used scares me to think that 2 layers of drywall will just stay there.:sweat: I am using a heavier guage steel it may not be what recomended as far as flex goes but it gives me piece of mind.


Fortunately, there are governing bodies that very formally test construction materials prior to making recommendations regarding best installation practices. The Steel Stud Manufacturers Association has tested and rated all things steel. Steel Studs, C-channel, etc. The 25 gauge Drywall Furring channel is rated for the load. It's what is spec'd by all clip manufacturers, here and abroad. Been used for a decade.

Going heavier on the furring channel will limit your results as you say. Not recommended at all. Not needed at all. If you feel the need to use 20 ga. channel, I'd skip the work and attach directly to the joists. Call it a day


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

When I get home from work I will see what guage the Hat Channel I have at home from a previous job I did. What I will do is measure it with a micrometer and post the thickness. Sorry for being a PITA but I just want to do it once and right.


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

Your questions and thoughts are good and reasonable. 1 person asks what 20 others are also asking themselves. It's all good.


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

I checked the thickness of the hat channel and it is 1/16" thick. Is this to thick?


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

That's some beefy steel!! That's not 25 gauge. http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/library/articles/furring_channel_with_resilient_sound_clips/


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

See told ya, when I build somthing it's allways overkill. This is a totally a new way for me in building methods so I am just hesitant in the flexibilty thats all. But one way to put it is if air plane wings were rigid in design they would break off!:gulp: So I guess the flexibilty is a good thing eh. I will be ordering them soon and I have to make a trip to get the proper hat channel. Again thanks for all your input it really helps when someone else knows what they are talking about.


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## the colors (Mar 28, 2008)

Well I am just about done painting and getting ready for the carpet. It has been a long 5 years in this whole basement project and need to post my pics of what it took to get to this point. I would call this room a Living room/ viewing room due to other rooms coming off of it. But I did set it up for MY veiwing pleasure.


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