# Dipole rear wall placement



## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

I have dipoles for surround sound speakers in my 5.1 setup.

They were placed on the side walls to the sides of my main listening couch, the null between the 2 tweeters on each speaker is just over 2 feet from the rear wall. 

When speaking to a cedia trained expert about the possibilities of setting up a 7.1 setup in my room he advised me that the dipoles were too close to the rear walls and would be better placed on the rear wall, 1/3 the width of the rear walls distance apart, this places them behind the listening postion. I moved them there.

Now I am contemplating changing to direct radiators as I have read that the majority of people say these are better for films than dipoles. When I spoke to a Cedia certified store about part exing the speakers they said dipoles are much better for films and I would be making an error changing over, they also said that they should not be on the rear wall and they should go back on the side wall :huh:

I am getting confused so I would really appreciate some guidence?

On the sidewall, is 2 feet too close like the first guy said, if so how far should they be for ultimate performance?

If they are too close is the rear wall be a great place to keep them?

Or would I be better off going for direct radiators placed on stands 110 degrees from the listening position. I have always had sub/sats previously but when I had my first full range speaker setup I went for matching Focal Profile package with dipoles so I have never tried larger speakers for rears, I have no idea if the directs will be a major improvement over the dipole versions, I want to make sure I make the right decision.

I know the dipole/direct arguement is personal prefference so the main thing I would like to know is about the dipole placement issue, any other advice is an added bonus.

Kindest Regards

Marty


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

I actually have a similar scenario in that I had passive radiators for rears and added dipoles for surrounds. I put the dipole for the actual surrounds and the radiators are the rear surrounds and have the radiators facing the direction of the nearest wall. The 7.2 sounds incredible and I couldn't be happier with the results. Click on the link in my signature and you will see the original setup on page one and the new setup on the last page. Pictures are kind of dark but you will get the idea.

Take care Marty, hope this helps and please let me know if I can help any further.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Dale Rasco said:


> I actually have a similar scenario in that I had passive radiators for rears and added dipoles for surrounds. I put the dipole for the actual surrounds and the radiators are the rear surrounds and have the radiators facing the direction of the nearest wall. The 7.2 sounds incredible and I couldn't be happier with the results. Click on the link in my signature and you will see the original setup on page one and the new setup on the last page. Pictures are kind of dark but you will get the idea.
> 
> Take care Marty, hope this helps and please let me know if I can help any further.


Nice setup :T

They look like direct radiators on the side walls??

How far are the side surrounds (dipoles) from the rear wall?

Regards
Marty


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

The center of my dipoles are about 7' from the rear walls.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Dale Rasco said:


> The center of my dipoles are about 7' from the rear walls.


Well that is my dilemma as I only have 2 feet distance so this is what I need to find out, if that is definately too close to the rear wall and if they are just as effective on rear wall. Clearly in your case 7 feet is good but how close can you get before they start to reduce in quality, is there a THX recommended distance?

Regards
Marty


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm not sure but I am sure I can find out. I know people that have them in corners and haven't noticed any issues with the sound. The dipoles really opened up my sound quite a bit and added a ton of depth.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Dale Rasco said:


> I'm not sure but I am sure I can find out. I know people that have them in corners and haven't noticed any issues with the sound. The dipoles really opened up my sound quite a bit and added a ton of depth.


Thanks I would appreciate that, I would rather keep the dipoles than fork out for a new pair of d.radiators but on the side wall 2 feet is the furthest away from the rear wall I could have them, so if they will be better kept on the rear wall like I have them now then so be it. But if both are not the ideal positions I guess I may not have much choice. I would love to have 7.1 but in order to have side surrounds in correct position the couch will need to be 10ft from a 9ft wide screen! Far too close:gulp:


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Yeah, I imagine that would leave a crick in the neck!


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Hey Marty, I have a couple of questions real quick.
What are the room dimensions?
How far is the sofa from the back wall?


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Dale Rasco said:


> Hey Marty, I have a couple of questions real quick.
> What are the room dimensions?
> How far is the sofa from the back wall?


My room is 12ft 11inch x 18ft 6inch and 8ft 5inch high

My screen is fixed on the 12ft 11inch wall.

The couch or rather my ears are 3ft from back wall, when I had dipoles on sides I had to be 2ft from rear wall so my ears were in line between the nulls of the speakers (in between the tweeters of each of the dipoles)

Just in front of me either side of the side walls are doors so that is why I cannot put speakers on side walls any further forward without being near the centre of the room.

Here is a 360 of my room if this helps #27:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/room-acoustics-audio-video-calibration/1084307-soundproofing-material-wife-can-live.html


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

After re-reading the whole thread again, I have to ask; Why are you doing this again? Do you not like the way your system sounds now? The only thing I really understood was that a Cedia guy said something and that got you thinking, which also happens to me a lot. Luckily I can catch myself before I get too far most of the time. In the end, it is about whether or not you like what you hear and not about whether or not it fits within someone else's specs which are completely subjective 99% of the time. Our rooms are not all that different. Mine is 18X15 with the screen on the 15' wall. If I were you, I would try this:


Get two ladders that you can rest your speakers on and place one on each wall across the room from one another at a distance that is equal to the space between the windows. I would also raise them to at least standing ear level.
Next, move your couch forward until you are about 12' from the screen. 
Calibrate the system and see how that sounds keeping in mind that you will be adding the rear surrounds later at about the same spot that the dipoles currently sit in the pictures except I would recommend moving them a bit higher on the wall. By using the PLII on the receiver the 5.1 will matrix to the 7.1. I think you will gain a lot by setting it up this way.

Remember, that the specs people rattle off sound impressive but most of the time they are a guidline to get you started, mainly because no two rooms are created equal. My dipoles actually sit a little forward from my seated position because of a window as well, but they sound infinitely better than my setup before I installed them. My only regret is that I didn't get the next series up, but I did get a tremendous deal on them to.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Dale Rasco said:


> After re-reading the whole thread again, I have to ask; Why are you doing this again? Do you not like the way your system sounds now? The only thing I really understood was that a Cedia guy said something and that got you thinking, which also happens to me a lot. Luckily I can catch myself before I get too far most of the time. In the end, it is about whether or not you like what you hear and not about whether or not it fits within someone else's specs which are completely subjective 99% of the time. Our rooms are not all that different. Mine is 18X15 with the screen on the 15' wall. If I were you, I would try this:
> 
> 
> Get two ladders that you can rest your speakers on and place one on each wall across the room from one another at a distance that is equal to the space between the windows. I would also raise them to at least standing ear level.
> ...


Sounds like upgradeitis :bigsmile: I always fall into this trap, buy something then wish I had gone the next step up! So now I try and get equipment as high as I can possibly afford.

The problem I have with them on the side and rear wall was I cannot really hear much going on behind, not very involving on most material. I did watch a music dvd and that sounded pretty impressive but on most films I cant tell if anything is going on behind unless I turn my head sideways.

I admit I never really paid too much attention to them being a problem in the past, only when the cedia guy advised them to be moved to the rear position.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I have dipoles as my rear surrounds and monopoloes for my side surrounds and they sound great. I found this article helpfull and interesting. http://www.hometheater.com/bootcamp/25/index.html


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

tcarcio said:


> I have dipoles as my rear surrounds and monopoloes for my side surrounds and they sound great. I found this article helpfull and interesting. http://www.hometheater.com/bootcamp/25/index.html


That was a great read :T

I feel a lot better about keeping the dipoles now, it would have been nice to hear their view on a 5.1 array with side dipoles on then just rear dipoles on, I will try the 2 ladder trick Chris recommended and here what they sound like in the position, this will mean that the nulls will be about 2 feet in front of me so I am not sure how good this will be?

If they sound better there I will fix them there and get rear dipoles, if not I guess I will have to live with them on the back walls or try them in the original position on the side walls 2 feet from the rear wall. It would be interesting to see an article the says for a 5.1 array dipoles are effective on rear walls or side walls near corners?

Regards
Marty


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

marty1 said:


> That was a great read :T
> 
> I feel a lot better about keeping the dipoles now, it would have been nice to hear their view on a 5.1 array with side dipoles on then just rear dipoles on, I will try the 2 ladder trick Chris recommended and here what they sound like in the position, this will mean that the nulls will be about 2 feet in front of me so I am not sure how good this will be?
> 
> ...


Actually, it's Dale not Chris. :bigsmile:

You do realize Marty, you have me re-thinking my dipoles and I feel that upgradeitis coming on.......:rolleyesno:


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Dale Rasco said:


> Actually, it's Dale not Chris. :bigsmile:
> 
> You do realize Marty, you have me re-thinking my dipoles and I feel that upgradeitis coming on.......:rolleyesno:


Sorry Dale :R

I remembered as I was about to go to sleep so I thought I'd edit that in the morning before he reads it :rolleyesno: I was talking to a Chris on another forum!

Anyway it does sound like upgradeitis for both of us!

We need more blind tests like that as there are so many standard layouts that proffesionals recommend and things like perfectly flat response from subs, I really wonder if your average cinema goer could sit there and go "Oh yeah that is the best sounding bass ever" when comparing the sub in flat and non flat positions?

I still haven't found anything that suggests in a 5.1 setup you can have dipoles near the corners on the side wall or on the rear wall and if you can what would be better out of the 2?

I will still try the middle of the room like you suggested but I would like a conclusive answer on the other placement issue, I am sure where they are now behind me the soundfield feels quite small, which doesn't seem to be right?

Thanks again DALE :bigsmile:


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## hddummy (Mar 9, 2007)

removed....sorry..posted in the wrong thread


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Dale Rasco said:


> I'm not sure but I am sure I can find out. I know people that have them in corners and haven't noticed any issues with the sound. The dipoles really opened up my sound quite a bit and added a ton of depth.


Hi Dale,

I will try out your ladder trick tomorrow, I found something on ask audyssey website the suggests if you have 2 rows of seats you can place the null of the dipole between the 2 rows, this means that I should be able to position them as you suggested, they would be 2 feet in front of listening position but that would be the same as being in the 2nd row from the back. Audyssey did say that the dipole should be at ear level?

Did you find out if anyone has a definate answer about if they will work well on a side wall 2 feet from the rear wall, or even why they dont seem to sound too good to me on the rear wall 2 feet behind me and 2 feet up?

Kind Regards
Marty


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

I looked for a while, but I can't find anything on having them that close to the back wall or in the corner even. It really is strange that there is that little on dipole placement out there. Of course now I am on a mission and will keep looking because I refuse to believe that there isn't something more concrete to point to.

As far as ear level goes, I am sure Audyssey knows what they are talking about, I have read a lot of threads about surround placement being at standing ear level but never anything specific to dipoles and I assume Audyssey was talking about seated ear level. I say try it both ways and see what best floats your boat. I will be experimenting in my room this weekend with adding two more speakers for a 9.2.......This may be getting out of hand, but I am digging it! :banana:


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Dale Rasco said:


> I looked for a while, but I can't find anything on having them that close to the back wall or in the corner even. It really is strange that there is that little on dipole placement out there. Of course now I am on a mission and will keep looking because I refuse to believe that there isn't something more concrete to point to.
> 
> As far as ear level goes, I am sure Audyssey knows what they are talking about, I have read a lot of threads about surround placement being at standing ear level but never anything specific to dipoles and I assume Audyssey was talking about seated ear level. I say try it both ways and see what best floats your boat. I will be experimenting in my room this weekend with adding two more speakers for a 9.2.......This may be getting out of hand, but I am digging it! :banana:


Let me know how it goes on the mission!

Audyssey was talking about seated ear level but I here so mant different things on height placement it is hard to know what to go with, I dont always trust my own ears, I like the idea of an accoustic elite expert saying to me "There you go, you put these here and that is how it is meant to be heard!" End of :yay2:

9.2  Blinding! Given space that could be incredible, it would be nice to have a film mixed with 9 discrete channels but they still haven't properly stepped up to 7 channels.

Kind Regards
Marty


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

marty1 said:


> Let me know how it goes on the mission!
> 
> Audyssey was talking about seated ear level but I here so mant different things on height placement it is hard to know what to go with, I dont always trust my own ears, I like the idea of an accoustic elite expert saying to me "There you go, you put these here and that is how it is meant to be heard!" End of :yay2:
> 
> ...


I am really more just curious on the 9 channels and will probably end up creating a zone for stereo downstairs in our living room. 

You are so right on the 7 channels. I have heard a couple of great ones like The Expendables and Shrek Forever After, but I have heard a lot more bad ones than good. Let me know how your weekend test turns out.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Dale Rasco said:


> I am really more just curious on the 9 channels and will probably end up creating a zone for stereo downstairs in our living room.
> 
> You are so right on the 7 channels. I have heard a couple of great ones like The Expendables and Shrek Forever After, but I have heard a lot more bad ones than good. Let me know how your weekend test turns out.


Annoyingly I was talking to the store where I bought the dipoles from and he said the dipoles are too close together, they are best placed on the rear wall but you need them closer to the side walls as you need at least 1 of the tweeters facing you??

He is the manager of a proffesional cedia certified av installation shop and he didn;t even know what I meant by the 'null' 

What is going on? He always says that forums complicate things and go too much into pointless detail, set it up, if it sounds good enjoy it, that is it!


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

marty1 said:


> set it up, if it sounds good enjoy it, that is it!


Funny, that's what I was trying to say the other day.



Dale Rasco said:


> After re-reading the whole thread again, I have to ask; Why are you doing this again? Do you not like the way your system sounds now? The only thing I really understood was that a Cedia guy said something and that got you thinking, which also happens to me a lot. Luckily I can catch myself before I get too far most of the time. *In the end, it is about whether or not you like what you hear and not about whether or not it fits within someone else's specs which are completely subjective 99% of the time.*


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Yeah I know your both right but I would have thought that the dipole designers would have designed them and set out a standard placement regarding if you are supposed to sit in the null or have 1 of the tweeters should be firing at you?


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

It would be nice to have it writing.......


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

I dont believe it, I read that there should be a left or right sign on the speakers for them to go on the correct wall, when I looked I could not see any so I spoke to the store again and they are actually bipoles not dipoles :yikes:

When I read a review for them before I bought them it said Focal Profile SR908 dipoles review, all this time!!

What does this now change in regards to placement then? I have been looking so hard into dipoles I have never read anything about bipoles before?

Regards
Marty


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Well Marty, just to show that nobody is perfect, I to figured out after reading your last post that I also have bipoles.

http://www.definitivetech.com/products/products.aspx?productid=BP2X

I feel like a moron. I've only had them about three weeks though.


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Alright, I am determined to get to the bottom of this once and for all today.

*Bipole:*
Bipole surround speakers have two or more speakers that output sound from both sides of the cabinet. If used as side surround speakers, the sound is output both towards the front and rear of the room. If used as rear surround speakers, they output sound in both directions along the rear wall. The dual speakers used in a bipole speaker are ‘in phase’, meaning that both speakers output sound simultaneously. Bipole speakers create a diffuse surround effect so the location of the speaker cannot be pinpointed. In general, bipole speakers are a good choice for movies and music and are usually placed on the side walls.

*Dipole:*
Like a bipole speaker, a dipole speaker outputs sound from both sides of the cabinet. The difference is dipole speakers are ‘out of phase’, which means that one speaker is outputting sound while the other is not, and vice-versa. The purpose is to create a very diffused and enveloping surround sound effect. Dipole surround speakers are usually preferred by movie enthusiasts and are also placed on the side walls.

I am guessing the diffused effect from the dipole gives a more pronounced presence to the oposite speaker.


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

There sure are a lot more results out there for Bipole speakers. This is very informative.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/speakers/6...ect-radiating-monopole-surround-speakers.html


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

That is perfect :T

Thanks Dale, I have tried them in a few different positions but on the rear wall but about a foot from the corners, just like the store manager said, basically a few feet further apart from the originally position sounds great, wifes approval :bigsmile:

Now they were just above ear level but when I fix them to the wall should I place them like the thread said, 2-3ft above ear level? I would have thought ear level for diffused speakers would have been best as I thought the only reason they say above ear height is for direct speakers not to fire in your ears?

Kind Regards
Marty


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Well if they are bipole then they're not diffused so I would raise them 2'-3' above ear level. Since the bipoles are in phase, they are acting more like the direct radiators than the dipole.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

I will do that tomorrow

Thanks again for your help Dale, PM me when you have tried out your 9.2 setup, I would like to hear how good it is. 

My next assignment is room treatment, I have alot of slap echo as I am a minimalist so I will look into some accoustic panels, the Subwoofer not too bad in response but trying to find a sweet spot moving an SVS PB13U around is a killer and it is probably going to be another thing like you and the AudioT guy said, if it sounds good stick with it and stop looking at the details.

Kind Regards
Marty


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Here is more info on the subject....http://forum.blu-ray.com/speakers/6...ect-radiating-monopole-surround-speakers.html


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks that was really informative :T


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Just to update this thread I have done the ladder trick, played about with the bipoles and the listening position and I have found that the best position was to have them on the rear wall, about a foot and a half away from the side walls. This means they are roughly 8 feet apart and 2 feet above ear level (ear to tweeters).

I then found that they sounded better when I moved the couch back closer to them, my listening position was about 5 feet away from the back wall when I was considering 7.1 but I found that it made the room feel a bit smaller and didn't look quite right. I thought I would try out a sound test before I did, my test material was the THX scene at the start of indy 4 bluray, when the large flower petals rotate and you here them going round you, just towards the end of it the sound of it drifts off into the right surround speaker. I found that when I moved the couch back to my older position, 2 feet away from the back wall I could really hear which way the sound travels as it moved from the rear left to the rear right. When I listened to it 5 feet away it was faint, I could hear the sound partially move but it was a bit too diffused for me.

So I will leave the couch where it is as it looks better and clearly the surrounds sound better.

I assume they sound better being closer to them because bipoles are diffused for that very reason. Unless someone else has another reason why? The surround soundstage sounds better than ever now and the speakers dont sound localised but they can be nicely directional when they need to be. 

Regards
Marty


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

marty1 said:


> Just to update this thread I have done the ladder trick, played about with the bipoles and the listening position and I have found that the best position was to have them on the rear wall, about a foot and a half away from the side walls. This means they are roughly 8 feet apart and 2 feet above ear level (ear to tweeters).
> 
> I then found that they sounded better when I moved the couch back closer to them, my listening position was about 5 feet away from the back wall when I was considering 7.1 but I found that it made the room feel a bit smaller and didn't look quite right. I thought I would try out a sound test before I did, my test material was the THX scene at the start of indy 4 bluray, when the large flower petals rotate and you here them going round you, just towards the end of it the sound of it drifts off into the right surround speaker. I found that when I moved the couch back to my older position, 2 feet away from the back wall I could really hear which way the sound travels as it moved from the rear left to the rear right. When I listened to it 5 feet away it was faint, I could hear the sound partially move but it was a bit too diffused for me.
> 
> ...


Good to hear Marty, let me know if you come up with anything new! 

Take Care,
Dale


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Dale Rasco said:


> Good to hear Marty, let me know if you come up with anything new!
> 
> Take Care,
> Dale


Thanks Dale :T

I have now had too change again, talking to Bryan on the accoustics forum I have been advised that the couch needs to be a lot further from the wall, he is right as my subs response is very uneven so I am now trying to find the balance.

Annoyingly further away from the speakers, although still sounds good with major flyover effects, through most of the film I am not hearing anything, I have put the same question on the other forum but there is always sounds coming from rears so surely you are always supposed to hear them :huh:

Kind Regards
Marty


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

So one question I have is; Do you adjust the levels of your speakers manually or do you let your receivers auto calibration mechanism do it?


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

I let mcaac do the job, but then I check the levels with spl and they are at 75db all around?


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

That's strange that you would hear it better closer to the speaker if at both locations the level is set to 75db.


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Dale Rasco said:


> That's strange that you would hear it better closer to the speaker if at both locations the level is set to 75db.


I didn't sit close to them for long to really notice the ambient sounds, I didn't watch a whole film while sitting there, just clips, I moved the couch not too long after to smooth out the uneven bass response. From the 4 feet away from wall position the flyover effects sound just right but I am just wondering if I am supposed to be hearing continuos sound from these rears as this is not happening?

If I am not supposed to hear it what is the point of mixing anything there?

Kind Regards
Marty


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

It is funny you mention that very thing. There is another thread going and the whole thing is about what type of sound should be coming from the surrounds. You could probably get an idea of what you should and should not hear. There are a couple of professionals that work for studios on there discussing it as well.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/av-home-theater/36269-has-surround-sound-been-forgotten.html


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Dale Rasco said:


> It is funny you mention that very thing. There is another thread going and the whole thing is about what type of sound should be coming from the surrounds. You could probably get an idea of what you should and should not hear. There are a couple of professionals that work for studios on there discussing it as well.
> http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/av-home-theater/36269-has-surround-sound-been-forgotten.html


Great Thanks Dale :T

I shall have a browse.

Kind Regards
Marty


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## marty1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Very interesting thread :T

Ok I am now finally content with what I am hearing, the bipoles are now on the side wall position.

Although the rear wall was great when I experimented with film clips that use the surrounds to their full potential, I found when I actually sat and watched entire films I was back in the same predicament as before, where I only heard the louder sound effects but not the ambient ones.

I moved them to the side walls and found that I can finally hear the ambient effects when watching a whole film :bigsmile: The other thing I have found is that they now connect with the front soundstage better, making you feel more engrossed, on the rear wall it feels a fraction disjointed.

Annoyingly after all this they are back in the very first position I had them in before cedia guy advised me to move them :explode: However my listening position back then was further back so it put me in between the null, this as I remember didn't sound great either. This was probably because as we now know, sitting in the null is only for dipoles, bipoles need to have one tweeter firing at you the other away from you.

So 2 things I have learned from this thread:

1. You cannot find best speaker position with just certain scenes, whole films and more than one film must be used to determine this.

2. 5.1 surround speakers are definately better placed on the side walls, my guess is that when the sounds start to move out of allignment with our ear canals towards the back of our heads (anything more than 110 degrees from centre) it starts to feel more seperated and not quite right.

Hope this helps others who go through similar issues, thanks very much to you Dale and anyone else who put their penniesworth in.

:thankyou:

Kind Regards
Marty


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