# Interested in a BFD .. dual mono subs ... where do I start?



## dane (Aug 30, 2007)

I tried to read the FAQ:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfdguide/

But the bottom of page two ("Manual Measurement Method") links to itself, not the next section. I saw no "table of contents" on the first FAQ page to jump past it ...


In short, I have dual 10" sealed subs, each with 1-band single PEQ. Same manufacturer, roughly the same manufacturing dates.. But as we all know room response plays a huge role, and my room is no different. I've used RoomEQWizard in the past (LOVE IT!) on the two independently and together to try and more properly integrate them, but it's a 6 hour process... (1 hr setup, 2 hours measurements, 3 more hours trying to tweak it out and in the end realizing I should have stopped after the first 3 hours because it wasn't any better, but now I'm just absolutely exhausted.)

I just finally got a new AVR and am stepping up to bluray. I figured now might be the right time to also move up to a better method of integrating the two subwoofers and then letting Audyssey (on my AVR) go from there (post-integrated).

I'm thinking about the FBQ2496, but have a few basic questions:

- Can the FBQ2496 properly handle completely separate subwoofer settings since they're in different parts of the room?

- Can the FAQ link get fixed so I can read the whole thing before asking questions that have been asked 10,000 times? I need lots of help, but am perfectly happy at least trying to learn it for myself first! 

- Am I correct that the best way to do this is to use REW with a FBQ2496 to properly integrate the subs for the best response, and then run the AVR's Audyssey MultiEQ (not XT) software to do the rest?



thanks all!!!

..dane


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

dane said:


> I tried to read the FAQ: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfdguide/ But the bottom of page two ("Manual Measurement Method") links to itself, not the next section. I saw no "table of contents" on the first FAQ page to jump past it ...


 Strange, it worked for me. Anyway, here's page two.



> I'm thinking about the FBQ2496, but have a few basic questions:
> 
> - Can the FBQ2496 properly handle completely separate subwoofer settings since they're in different parts of the room?
> 
> - Am I correct that the best way to do this is to use REW with a FBQ2496 to properly integrate the subs for the best response...


Yes, the FBQ will accommodate two subs, as will the cheaper BFD1124P.

Most other people who have tried separately equalizing two subs have ended up with the same frustrations you have. In the end, the bass is omnidirectional anyway, so it makes sense to just equalize all the subs as a single entity.

Regards,
Wayne


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## dane (Aug 30, 2007)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Strange, it worked for me. Anyway, here's page two.


Yes, I can get to page two. I can't get PAST page two... Do you have a link to page three? 



Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Yes, the FBQ will accommodate two subs, as will the cheaper BFD1124P.
> 
> Most other people who have tried separately equalizing two subs have ended up with the same frustrations you have. In the end, the bass is omnidirectional anyway, so it makes sense to just equalize all the subs as a single entity.
> 
> ...


I understand bass being perceived as omnidirectional at these frequencies, but the issue is the room-induced phase interaction between the two subs. They are both equidistant from the central seating location (one on each side of the primary seating couch), but therefore they are not uniformly placed between the rest of the room (one wall is closer, other wall has a stairwell, windows on one side of the room and other side has an 8' wide "door" opening to the adjacent room, etc). These room interactions make for some interesting constructive and destructive interference patterns...

My assumption would be to use something like a BFD to individually apply filters so as to make them sound the best when played together-- and then let Audyssey within the AVR do the rest.

More questions:

1) Is this a correct approach?

2) I understand the 1124 has multiple presets (12 I think)... Does the 2496 have any at all? Even just 2 would be fine, although honestly I will mostly likely "set it and forget it" even if I had multiple presets available to me..


thanks!
..dane


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## dane (Aug 30, 2007)

One more question-- I see that if I buy a BFD, I also need to buy a midi communication device or something like that, yes? Looks like that's another $40-50 ... Any less expensive options or other ways to easily get the filters into the BFD?

thanks,
..dane


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> I understand bass being perceived as omnidirectional at these frequencies, but the issue is the room-induced phase interaction between the two subs.


Naturally – the phase interactions with the room are what causes the peaks and depressions in response, whether there is only one sub or more than that.




> My assumption would be to use something like a BFD to individually apply filters so as to make them sound the best when played together-- and then let Audyssey within the AVR do the rest.


Part of the frustration often found here is that after painstakingly equalizing each sub independently for optimal response, a combined reading still looks dreadful. That’s why it’s easiest to just EQ multiple subs in tandem.




> 2) I understand the 1124 has multiple presets (12 I think)... Does the 2496 have any at all? Even just 2 would be fine, although honestly I will mostly likely "set it and forget it" even if I had multiple presets available to me..


The 2496 does not have any presets, just the one. It really doesn’t offer anything for subwoofer equalization over the 1124 to justify the added expense.




> Any less expensive options or other ways to easily get the filters into the BFD?


Yes – forget the MIDI interface and just enter the filters manually. REW shows in its EQ panel the exact parameters to enter for each filter.

Regards,
Wayne


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## dane (Aug 30, 2007)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Part of the frustration often found here is that after painstakingly equalizing each sub independently for optimal response, a combined reading still looks dreadful. That’s why it’s easiest to just EQ multiple subs in tandem.


Maybe I'm not properly understanding what you mean by EQing multiple subs "in tandem." I take that to mean you have one filter network running through the BFD and Y-split into both subs. I am wondering, however, if you mean something different.

I know quite well that making the two subs look good alone will NOT make them look good together-- I was suggesting to use the BFD as a 2-ch EQ system, one set of EQ applied to each sub so that TOGETHER they look good. That may be to cut one sub and boost another at the same frequency, or cutting both, for instance. If this is what you mean by in tandem, then I completely agree. 



Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> The 2496 does not have any presets, just the one. It really doesn’t offer anything for subwoofer equalization over the 1124 to justify the added expense.


I see. So its fancier processing power/etc would be better suited for more full-range applications then, where a higher noise floor would be more noticeable by the ear?



Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Yes – forget the MIDI interface and just enter the filters manually. REW shows in its EQ panel the exact parameters to enter for each filter.


Great to know-- thank you. 

Out of curiosity, can REqW load the settings automatically if you DO have one of those usb-midi adapters? If I go with the 1124, then I may be able to get one of those adapters if it is significantly more efficient, especially when trying multiple settings and tweaks in the dual-sub arena.

thanks for helping me out here.. I'm sure some of these questions have been hashed over thousands of times already...

..dane


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> Maybe I'm not properly understanding what you mean by EQing multiple subs "in tandem." I take that to mean you have one filter network running through the BFD and Y-split into both subs. I am wondering, however, if you mean something different.


Yup, that’s it. EQ them as a single sub with a single set of filters. Works great, I’m told, and much, much easier than trying to EQ them separately.




> I see. So its fancier processing power/etc would be better suited for more full-range applications then, where a higher noise floor would be more noticeable by the ear?


I don’t know if it has better processing power or a better noise floor.




> Out of curiosity, can REqW load the settings automatically if you DO have one of those usb-midi adapters?


Yes.

Regards,
Wayne


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## dane (Aug 30, 2007)

Thanks again for the quick replies.. There are a few 1124's floating around craigslist and elsewhere.. I'll try to pick one up...

cheers!
..dane


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## dane (Aug 30, 2007)

Picked up an 1124p (firmware v1.0) for $60 shipped.. Seems to be about the going rate these days...

Regarding the MIDI interface-- seeing as I'm a tweaker-- I'm interested in purchasing a USB/MIDI interface. I have read references to the m-audio uni midi usb adapter, but a quick search also shows this little guy:

CablesToBuy™ 6 FT (1.8 m) USB MIDI Cable Converter (Amazon)

Price: under $10 shipped

Has anyone tried this little guy? Price is quite attractive, but I don't want to waste $10 if others have already tried-and-failed with it...

thanks,
..dane


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

I can’t say that I’ve ever heard of anyone complaining about any MIDI /USB interface. Typically the issue has been with the BFD’s firmware.

Regards,
Wayne


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## dane (Aug 30, 2007)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> I can’t say that I’ve ever heard of anyone complaining about any MIDI /USB interface. Typically the issue has been with the BFD’s firmware.
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


Thanks.. I've read all over M-Audio's site that none of their devices are supported by Windows XP Media Center Edition.. Unfortunately that's what our laptop uses.. (the only PC in the house fast enough to run REW.)

Interestingly, I use an MAudio MobilePre with the laptop just fine with REW.. So I'm wondering if I'm just one of the few lucky ones with Windows MCE that seems to work?

I'd just hate to spend a lot of money on a non-working solution...

I have also found a few Guitar Hero USB Midi cables on eBay for less than $10 shipped.. 

Does REW read-back MIDI information from the BFD (to verify the information "took"), or does it only write to the BFD?

thanks!!
..dane

ps.- the BFD arrived.. firmware v1.0. Should work no problem then. It'd be nice to know what they've changed in subsequent firmware releases though...


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## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

dane said:


> Does REW read-back MIDI information from the BFD (to verify the information "took"), or does it only write to the BFD?


It only writes, the BFD does not have Midi commands to read back the settings.


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