# HD DVD and Blu-ray at the moment



## Wayde (Jun 5, 2006)

This post might be a continuation of the discussion at the HDDVD vs Blu-ray post here, but I'd like to get a little more detail and open it up to anyone's thoughts or info you might have.

bobgpsr pasted an excel post from the AVSforum on the differences between the bluray player and the HD DVD player to this point.

Popular opinion on the forum seems to be that the overall image quality of HD DVD is better with the 
first batch of movies coming out. The problems with BD are attributed to the mpeg2 codec being used with movies at this time. 

"Early word on the initial wave of Blu-ray titles is the MPEG-2 codec chosen to fit the content on 25GB single layer disks has compromised video quality"

Blu-ray backers I've found on the web say quality issues are the fault of the early releases and not the format or even the Samsung player. They're unphased despite admitting to losing the first round. They're confident that the 50Gig barrier holds BD domination. 

Dan Bradley from The Man Room says:

"For costing twice as much as the HD-A1, Samsung’s BD-P1000 isn’t anywhere near twice the machine."

The BD camp seems to be pretty confident that there is no "problem" per-se with the idea of 50 Gig disks, I've only been able to find where they're saying 50Gig disks "_won't be ready 'til the end of summer_." So for the time being we're looking at 25Gig disks with Mpeg2 and "compromised" err… ****** video quality. That implies to me that the BD format simply isn't ready.

A rundown of recent HD DVD titles available today gave most of the films encoded in VC-1 were very near 30Gigs in size, most seemed to exceed the 25Gig limit of BD, making them impossible to present on that format. That's kind of pathetic actually :huh: 

"The Last Samurai (which topped out at 27.3GB), Mel Brooks's Blazing Saddles (25.4GB), The Phantom of the Opera (24.8GB), Jarhead (24.7GB), The Bourne Identity (22.7GB), Serenity (19.6GB), The Fugitive (18.2GB), and Doom (16.5GB)."

So, at this point (contrary to the hype) BD isn't the larger format because they only have single layer 25Gig media available. But HD DVD has dual layer at 30 Gig. That is until the _end of summer_ when … if they get whatever the difficulty with double density cleared up.

*Why isn't BD using Mpeg4 or VC-1?* I heard so much about upgrading from Mpeg2 being a big step. Mpeg2 makes me think digital cable TV broadcasts. VC-1 is Microsoft's own standard of video compression so I'm pretty sure we know why HD DVD is using it. But apparently the BD standard has also licensed the use of VC-1. So, that's two next gen codecs BD could be using. Are they using Mpeg2 only because of they haven't yet cracked dual layer?

One other thing that confuses me a bit is the difference between *HD DVD's 1080i output and Blu-ray's 1080P output*. 

I understand people on the AVSforum have said they've successfully de-interlaced the 1080i output of the HD DVD disks available now and have wonderful 1080P image quality. Being that native 1080P output of the BD is suffering from poor video quality (at the hands of Mpeg2?). What's the big advantage to native 1080P HDMI ouput? 

If you have a 1080P HDTV in your livingroom it should scale any incoming video to its native resolution anyway, right? So, if you have an inbound 1080i video signal from your HD DVD player it's going to result in a pretty 1080P image on your HDTV. 

That's about it - I think I've laid all my cards on the table in trying to sort out where I think we stand with the first generation of the BD vs HD DVD format. I'd like learn more if anyone has any insight or opinions.


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: Coordinated HD-DVD purchase...*

Um. Is there a reason you want to support HD-DVD? Over Blu-Ray? Or over DVD? In general?


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## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: Coordinated HD-DVD purchase...*



Josuah said:


> Um. Is there a reason you want to support HD-DVD? Over Blu-Ray? Or over DVD? In general?


Hi Josuah:
I do support HD DVD over Blu-ray and would be glad to discuss it in its own topic if you would like. But that is not the intent of this topic. This is more just to say no matter which format you prefer you would still like to purchase all movie titles available and not be limited to studios making deals for one format or the other. By the studios picking sides and only marketing there films to selected formats is limiting there consumer base, if we can show a high demand for titles the studios may reconsider and release movies to both formats for the time being.

I'm in for six titles but have yet to make my final selection (I see so many I still want...) and like Sonny I will be ordering thru Amazon (I like there service and customer reviews etc)


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: Coordinated HD-DVD purchase...*

I see. By buying HD-DVD, you would force the Blu-Ray only studios to release their content on HD-DVD, short term. Long term, that would result in Blu-Ray going away from everyone except Sony Studios, because of the PS3. (Is there HD-DVD only content also?) Thanks for explaning further although I should have read the original post more closely.

[offtopic: Personally, I would prefer Blu-Ray to succeed if possible because I would prefer the larger capacity per layer feature to show up in computer burners. But at the same time I fall into the category of not wanting to show support because I don't like the legal lobbying and rights restrictions being pushed down through these products.]


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## Tommy (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: Coordinated HD-DVD purchase...*



Josuah said:


> I see. By buying HD-DVD, you would force the Blu-Ray only studios to release their content on HD-DVD, short term. Long term, that would result in Blu-Ray going away from everyone except Sony Studios, because of the PS3. (Is there HD-DVD only content also?) Thanks for explaning further although I should have read the original post more closely.
> 
> [offtopic: Personally, I would prefer Blu-Ray to succeed if possible because I would prefer the larger capacity per layer feature to show up in computer burners. But at the same time I fall into the category of not wanting to show support because I don't like the legal lobbying and rights restrictions being pushed down through these products.]


HD DVD has Universal, Warner & Paramount
Blu-ray has alot more exclusive support at the moment

To answer your off topic, although Blu-ray promised a larger capacity of 50g's they did not deliver as promised and all there current disks are 25 g's which is actually less space then HD DVD.


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## toecheese (May 3, 2006)

*Re: Coordinated HD-DVD purchase...*

This does seem like a biased effort (since it was Sonnie who started it) and looks like HTS is backing HD-DVD. 

The question is: Why?

I'm on many other forums where people do a 'group buy' to get everyone a better deal than if they did it themselves. 

This is not. This is trying to send some kind of message to.. who? 

All in all it seem a bit silly, as if 100 purchases are going to make an impression on anyone.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: Coordinated HD-DVD purchase...*

:nono: You haven't read the entire thread. Your questions are already answered.


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## toecheese (May 3, 2006)

*Re: Coordinated HD-DVD purchase...*

Actually, I did read it before I posted (old-school internet use)

But to be pedantic:

HD Bias: "you can start your own BR one" (to be unbiased, they should have been combined or started at same time)

Why: Best explanation (still not the reason why)- "it's a mimic of something a couple of other forums are doing and I decided we would follow suit."

Why P2: No 'deal' for a group buy, why do it "coordinated". Is it like Hawaiian Shirt Day at work?

Sends a message: To whom? To amazon? To...?

If you want to make sure studios release a message in your format... the problem is that you bought early. Why reward the industry for being greedy- everyone knows that BR is a superior technology (capacity, blah blah blah)- but my guess is that the licensing for it was onerus. If you're trying to make sure that your particular flavor stays in the market, all you're doing is getting a half-arsed product (take a look at the reviews for HD vs BR on titles that have been released on both). They obviously optimize to one format and then 'just ship it' on the other. I believe the market and the forum both are voting that they're waiting for a winner- which is the wrong word- survivor is it.. Unlike the DVD -R, DVD +R fiasco, both standards won't survive- and if they do they'll have things like "3% of movie is cropped" issues.

I know you're excited about your new hi-def setup, so go for it... but I- and most everyone else is just sittin' on the sidelines eating popcorn, watching the 'show'.

Here's an interesting article: http://technology.guardian.co.uk/online/comment/story/0,12449,881780,00.html (why VHS is *better* than Betamax)

And this one: http://tafkac.org/products/beta_vs_vhs.html


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## Josuah (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: Coordinated HD-DVD purchase...*



toecheese said:


> everyone knows that BR is a superior technology (capacity, blah blah blah)- but my guess is that the licensing for it was onerus.


I think Blu-Ray was delayed and then rushed because of AACS. IIRC, AACS support was added later and not part of the original spec.


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Format discussions moved here from HD DVD coordinated purchase thread. This is the place to argue nicely! :boxer: :rant:  :hissyfit: 


Oh and AACS applies to both formats, always has, and still has not been formally approved, so it did not delay anything. An interim version of AACS allows Toshiba & Samsung to ship players since last March. Toshiba did in April 14, Samsung did on June 28. 

Bob


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Okay.... cool. I'll say what's on my mind "nicely".

History lesson #1: The majority is not always right and it may not always be beneficial to stick with the decision of "most" people. Noah and his family were in the minority when they got on the Ark.

Although I and several others here may be in the minority, I am definitely bias towards HD-DVD at this moment because I own a player and already quite a few DVDs. I really don't know what difference it makes what I support and/or why anyone would be disappointed or upset that I do support it. Everyone can decide for themselves what they want.

If and when Blu-ray gets a machine priced accordingly and working properly, I'll most likely buy one, or some variation of it. If a combo machine becomes available, and priced right, I could easily end up with one. I have already mentioned elsewhere that once Lite-on makes the HTPC drives available for both formats that I would be interested in building my own combo player... provided they are priced what I would consider reasonable.


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## MrPorterhouse (Jul 29, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> I have already mentioned elsewhere that once Lite-on makes the HTPC drives available for both formats that I would be interested in building my own combo player... provided they are priced what I would consider reasonable.


NVIDIA now makes a nice video card that has a HDMI-HDCP output and is windows vista compliant. It runs about $250, and the drives will be pricey for a while, not to mention that you'll need 2GB RAM and preferably 4GB RAM to run smoothly without worry. So depending on what your current PC is stocked with, it might only cost you around $2000. As the drives come down in price, the HTPC dual format player becomes more and more attractive. 

Either way, you'll be able to buy 2 stand alone players(1 HD DVD and 1 Blu-ray) for less than what a universal would cost ya to build. More and more people are adding HTPC's everyday, so OEM's are begining to respond with attractive media bundles on the cheap, though.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Yeah... my thinkin' is if a Blu-ray player (one that is tested to work properly) becomes available in the $500-600 price range, I'll probably just buy one of those. But I ain't gonna pay $1000 for one. I would probably pay $1000-1200 for a combo setup though.

I may just have to enjoy my HD-DVD for a while. :huh:


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