# How to run cables through existing conduit in ceiling?



## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

Hi, I'm new here and new to the whole HT experience too, so forgive me if this sounds a little stupid. 

I bought a house with an ancient sharp projector in the ceiling, probably 3 times the size of modern ones. It's already installed in the ceiling and its only cable (component) runs through the ceiling (in-wall) to the back of the projector screen where I have access through a crawling space masked by a wooden shelf door. I want to replace the old projector by a new one and wondering if I can do so without calling a contractor to break my ceiling apart by running the cables from the new projector (2 HDMI and 1 component) through the existing conduit. My question is, can this be accomplished and how? :help:


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

If the conduit is big enough - sure. Certainly you could probably pull 2 HDMI - that and the component might be a bit dicey. Just tie/tape a pull wire to the existing component cables and pull them from the other end. Then tie/tape the new HDMI to the pull wire and go back through.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks, so is there a specific pull wire I should use for this? Also, should I try to pull one HDMI cable at a time (in this case I would have to attach another pull wire to the HDMI head) or should I use the same wire to pull both cables at ounce?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Pull both at once definitely.

For the wire, just something thin. Telephone wire is kind of borderline but might work depending on how tight the pull is and how many curves. You could also just use fiberglass pull rods like electricians use for this exact purpose.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Can you tie on to the old ones and pull from the projector back through?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

nylon string is your best option to tie the old component cables to the new HDMI cables. You may also want to run an Ethernet (cat6) cable as well.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

willis7469 said:


> Can you tie on to the old ones and pull from the projector back through?


That was my first thought but I wonder if pulling 2 HDMI's plus maybe a component and/or Ethernet cable tied to the existing component would be too heavy to pull, no?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

CleveKing said:


> That was my first thought but I wonder if pulling 2 HDMI's plus maybe a component and/or Ethernet cable tied to the existing component would be too heavy to pull, no?


 maybe. Do you have an assistant to feed them?


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

willis7469 said:


> maybe. Do you have an assistant to feed them?


Yes, my wife can help. I'm just afraid of getting stuck. This set up was built over 10 years ago in the house, so I'm afraid that conduit is not very big.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

A piece of Cat 6 is pretty small - shouldn't be a problem. Certainly much less than component cables. They make a 'lube' to put on the cables that will make the pull smoother.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

bpape said:


> A piece of Cat 6 is pretty small - shouldn't be a problem. Certainly much less than component cables. They make a 'lube' to put on the cables that will make the pull smoother.


I'm going with a budget projector, which does not have Ethernet port (BenQ W1070), seems like a good upgrade from what I have right now and until I can afford a better machine.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks everyone, very helpful!

I'm going to pull the old cable a little bit (it has about 3 feet of excess cable in one end) to see how much resistance I get. If it is moving freely, I think I'm going to tie it directly to the HDMI cables and give it a chance. I still have to decide if I want to pull a component along with the 2 HDMIs as well. 

If pulling the old one is offering some resistance, this is what I'm thinking of using tied to it.

http://www.harborfreight.com/50-ft-nylon-fish-tape-66505.html


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

That will work perfectly. Tape the ends and the first few inches with electrical tape.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

IMO:
- Tie several (say, six) lengths of string/wire to the original cable.
- Pull the original cable out and now you've got six chances to pull your new cables into position.
- Use however many strings you need for now, leave the rest for another time (or remove them).

Regardless of how you get it done, I hope it goes smoothly.


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## Steeve-O (Dec 3, 2010)

I would also tie a string on the other end too. This way if you get stuck you can pull it back inside a little to unstuck it and start pulling it out again.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

I use a "wire fish tape", it is sturdy and can many times push through obstacles. I had to run some CAT6 from the basement up to my theater on the 2nd floor (no conduit), I couldn't have done it without one of these. Here is an example

http://www.lowes.ca/wire-fish-tape/...-steel-fish-tape_g1199010.html?ProductSlot=10


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

How easy it is to pull will depend on how many 90-degree bends there are. One shouldn’t be a problem, two will be more of a challenge, three is pretty much DOA.

I’d suggest using electrician’s jet line or a nylon weed eater line like Tony recommended. The reason is that you need to be able to tie your new pull line to the HDMI cables being pulled through the conduit. You won’t be able to do that with the nylon fish tape you’re considering. See Post #2 of my article on in-wall wiring to see how to prep the pull line and cables. The same techniques will apply for pulls through a conduit.

As far as “how to do it,” on one end of the conduit tie and tape your new pull line (i.e. jet line or weed eater line) to one of your existing cables. Then from the other end of the conduit, pull all the cables out, which will leave your new pull line inside the conduit. 

Please note, don’t try to pull out just the cable you have the pull line taped to and leave the rest in place. You will need to pull all the existing cables all out. The reason is that they are not laying in the conduit in a linear fashion but are all twisted and wrapped around each other. Thus your new pull line will merely replace the cable you pulled out of that twisted bundle. When you go to pull in the new cables they will be snaking their way through all that. At the very least it will make pulling in the new cables much more difficult. At worst it’ll all jam up in a nasty ball inside the conduit, and that will be end of that; it will not pull beyond that point. For the same reason I don’t recommend pulling through a whole slew of new pull lines like eljay suggested. It won’t work, you’ll just end up with a snarled ball of pull lines somewhere inside the conduit. You might pull in two new pull lines, to have one for a back-up, but no more than that.

Once you have your new pull line in place, prep them as outlined in the link above, with the pull line tied and taped to one of the HDMI cables, and the second cable attached to the first. As mentioned above, how difficult the pull is will depend on the number of 90s. Your first clue will be how it goes pulling out the existing cables: If they come out easily, then it’ll be easy pulling in the new ones. If it’s hard getting them out, then it will be hard pulling in the new ones.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Regards, 
Wayne


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

If the three component cables are separate from the others you could pull two out to make space for the bundled pull. It should also make the actual pulling easier. 

Have you poked your head up into the crawl space and seen if the conduit runs the whole length or if it is just a port to the void space above the room? You may be dealing with two short pieces of conduit. If you can't tell then use fish tape to feed from one end. If it doesn't come out the other you'll know


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

Hi all, thanks for all the feedback, sorry I could not check the forum for a while.

OK, after another more detailed look, it looks like the only narrow spaces are the entry and exits by which the cable travels, then it just hang loose over the drywall ceiling as rab-byte pointed out. Hard to say even with a flashlight but I think it's not really running on a conduit. The old component cable that is there right now has only 1 video plug, the other cable running into the same outer jacket has a wire for the 12V screen trigger in the projector. 

I have a clear picture of the projector end of things but not in the other end located in a cramped dark room behind the screen. In that space, there must be a hundred different cables from the house speaker system, cable company, receiver, dvd, etc... Right now I can't figure out exactly where the projector cable is coming from but it looks like it was just squeezed through a box exit along with the house speaker cables. That will make the job much more difficult. I will let you know when I find out.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Take some pictures of the space you're in. Can you get some light in there? We still may have a solution for your needs. 

I for one am interested in seeing what you're seeing.

If need be there are other options:
http://www.amazon.com/single-75ohm-Extender-Sender-Receiver/dp/B00HWIWEMU


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## chrisletts (Oct 16, 2014)

And if you don't have any existing cables to use as a starting point, then a piece of metal (iron) attached to thin fishing line inserted into the open end of the conduit, then use a strong magnet as close as you can get to the conduit to pull it through (yes it does work though I've not actually done this on an embedded conduit)


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

OK, I managed to take some pictures with my phone.

Here is the where cables come from in the hidden room behind the electric projector. You see a lot of thick cables, those are from the house speaker system and one I think is from the cable company. The thin gray cables are the ones that come from the projector.










It's very tight back there but I managed to bring a small ladder inside to take the picture.

Here is the projector end:










Notice that 3 cables go into the box in the drywall ceiling, component video, 12V screen trigger and remote control sensor. Here is a close-up:










I managed to insert my phone into the drywall box and take a picture to see where the cables are going over the ceiling:










The sort of good news is that there is no tight conduit. The really bad news is that the wood board where the 3 cables are going through in the ceiling over the drywall is not in a straight line with the exit hole in the other end behind the projector, in other words, the cables make a 90 degree turn to the left right after they go through the first hole towards the screen traveling straight for about 9-10 feet and make another 90 degree turn to the left into the hole with a bunch of cables from the speaker system. 

Thoughts?


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Okay that's a hack job...

1) Get a helper

2) one of you will feed the cables while the other person pulls from the access point where the wires go into the partial board... Done pull them all the way through, just see if you can move them a few feet. 

If that works?

3) tape a cat-6 cable to each of those 4-conductor wires. You'll tape the Ethernet like is shown in the picture. Make sure it's a smooth transition from one cable to the next. You don't want the edges of the cable to catch on the holes. 










Feed the cables one at a time. 

You MAY be able to get an HDMI through but probably only after the other two wires are pulled out. With a cat cable you can terminate it with a RJ45 and use extenders for HDMI. You'll also have cat cables for control and triggers. 


http://www.hdbaset.org/products_list





.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

It looks like it's going to be impossible to pass a HDMI head in the second hole packed with all other cables, so the cat cable would be a much better option indeed. My questions are:

I would need 3 cat cables right? I think 3 could fit, since I think they are just a bit thicker than the 3 already there that I want to remove but not sure if I can pass them though, that taped area connecting to old and new wire is thicker. Also, do I loose audio and/or video quality using a RJ45 connected to an HDMI extender?


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

No loss it's bit for bit with HDbaseT. 

Pull them one at a time. You technically only need two but s third is good for redundancy.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

I wonder if I could drill another hole in the wooden board with the 2 holes packed with cable (below). 










Would another hole there compromise the integrity of the board? I just have no idea. 

The problem is, the ideal would be drill right next to one of the existing holes to make it possible to fish the wire through the new hole to create more room but I'm not sure how far I can reach with a drill there, I will have to check later.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks for all your suggestions but I realized there is absolutely no way I can get any cable through the preexisting holes over the drywall ceiling. I noticed those wooden boards are running in a parallel fashion every 1-2 feet or so, so it is not just 2 holes I have to get cables through but probably 4-6 of them, many of which are already packed with cables. They must have installed them when building the house. I loosened up the current wires in the projector end and tried to pull them individually and they would not move a millimeter, too much resistance. Tried in the other end, same deal. 

Right now there are 3 cables there, so maybe someone can help me to figure out how I can maximize image and audio quality using the current cables. I don't want pay a contractor to come a break the ceiling to run a couple of cables, that's probably too expensive.

So, there are 2 cables with thin red, white, black and green wires (one of each) along with an uninsulated wire, which I think it's ground. The third and last cable has red and black wires.

In one of the 4-color cables, the black and red wires are connected to the 12V trigger to open the electric screen when the projector is turned on. It looks like red is the hot one and black is ground. The green and white are not connected to anything.

In the other 4-color wire cable, the black wire is connected to the video-out in the receiver via component port. All other wires in this cable are not being used.

The third and last cable (2-wire, just red and black), is connected to the remote sensor. It also looks like the red is hot and the black is used as ground.

The projector and receiver upgrades I'm buying do have component ports that I can use with the current cables but I wonder if those cables can be used in a different way to improve quality. I'm not sure the component video will deliver 1080p HD supported by the projector, probably not I guess.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Patching drywall isn't too big of an undertaking and Epsom does make a fairly good wireless projector. So you're still not hosed. 

Another option would be to run the cable exposed or through some wire mold.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

I have not been able to find out what kind of cable those already in place are. They have gray insulation and carry 5 wires, green, red, black and white, in addition to the ground (uninsulated). All 4 colored wires are soldered to individual AV jacks. Only the black jack is being used since the archaic projector I want to replace is connected to the also archaic receiver (will also get replaced) via a single composite cable. 

So, I'm thinking, why not to use the current cable AV jacks and cable to connect the new projector to the new receiver via component? The color of wires there do not match the green, yellow and blue of component but I don't think it matters as long as I make sure each component channel in the projector connects to its respective one in the receiver, right?

I have been researching and it looks like my picture quality will not be significantly compromised if I use the component compared to running an HDMI.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

You can run component with the cables you have now, but you'll run into at least one real big issue. Many new devices don't have component video out and it's very costly to down convert HDMI signals. AppleTV, Roku, newer Blu-ray players, some HD cable/sat boxes, and many AVR receivers no longer support component video signals.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

True, I'm thinking about that but the receiver I want has component out and the projector has component in. Everything else (roku, videogame, dvd, etc) can be connected to the HDMI ports in the receiver, there are 7 of them!


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

CleveKing said:


> True, I'm thinking about that but the receiver I want has component out and the projector has component in. Everything else (roku, videogame, dvd, etc) can be connected to the HDMI ports in the receiver, there are 7 of them!


But your AVR won't convert an HDMI signal to component video. Only convert component to HDMI.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

Is that right? If I connect my receiver via component to the projector, devices connected to the receiver via HDMI won't project? 

I was not aware of that, but it looks like so:










This really complicate things  I'm stuck.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Looking back over your photos; why can't you get a fish pole under the beam between it and the ceiling. Looks like at least one wire is traveling that way now.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

rab-byte said:


> Looking back over your photos; why can't you get a fish pole under the beam between it and the ceiling. Looks like at least one wire is traveling that way now.


Exactly. That's what I'm trying to do but no wires running there from the projector to fish. I did manage go insert a pole there today but it took me a lot of time and patience because the space between beans is crowded with light fixtures, HVAC pipes, water pipes as far as my limited view can tell. I could see the tip of the pole from the space where I want to bring the HDMI to, but the room to fish anything I can manage to attach to the tip of the pole is like half-inch high and 10 feet long. To make matters worse, the pole was the only thing I managed to get there but won't bend to my direction if I fish it with the hook of a fish tape. I'm not giving up up yet. I will get this done :reading:


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Use a pole not tape for this one.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

I did get this thing done! I used a pole from my kids toy tent a weed eater wire and a fish tape. I taped the wire to the tip pf the pole and inserted into the drywall port between parallel beans traveling over the drywall. In the other end, with a lot of patience, I fished the wire with a fish tape, the depth between the drywall and wood giving me a view of the wire was so little but I managed with the help with a nice small but powerful flashlight. 

Now all I have to do is tape a HDMI cable tho the wire and pull, it's going to offer some resistance because it turns over wood corners but I think it's going to be OK.

I made marks in the wire to figure out how long of a cable I need and iI concluded I need at least 25 feet, with 30 giving plenty of surplus in both ends. I heard HDMI cables loose AV quality the longer they are, is this true? I can't find a good quality 30 feet, just 25 and 35, so I'm thinking of getting the 25 if this quality problem with very long cables is really true.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Good quality 35' you'll be fine. 
Don't spend too much.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Agreed. Check out Oppo. In addition to their players, they also offer nice HDMI cables in longer lengths at very reasonable prices.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Leave the other wires in place. They can be repurposed as control wires.

When you tape the HDMI there are a few things you'll want to be sure you do. 

Leave the plastic cap on the HDMI head
Wrap your electric tap around the whole head and a good bit of your pull wire. 
Make sure the tape tapers to the pull string, you don't want any edges that the HDMI can catch on. 
Don't force it guide it and have a helper feeding. 
Unravel and straighten the HDMI as best you can before you feed the wire.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks for the tips!

After some research I decided to go with this 35 ft:

http://www.amazon.com/BlueRigger-Hi...23751099&sr=8-1&keywords=high+quality+hdmi+35

Yes, I'm definitively keeping the existing cables in there for other possible applications, one will be used as 12V trigger for the screen.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Okay next steps are running the wire and equipment review.

If you haven't selected an AVR or other equipment yet and want some input start a new thread about the project and we'll all be happy to add our 2¢

If you do; post a link to it in this thread so we can all jump over and help. 

Welcome to the Shack!


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks! I kinda got everything selected already as far as equipment, planning to build it one step at the time, nothing fancy, so not sure if worth opening a new thread for it.

The idea is to use the current HT set up but just upgrade it. The current equipment is more than 10 years old. The screen is electric and built in a wooden center over a vent-free fireplace, looks really nice, but it's 4:3 and too small, the diagonal picture projected at AR of 16:9 is something like 70 inches or maybe not event that. Replacing that screen requires tearing down the wood center and I'm trying to keep this project as cheap as possible and avoid hiring a contractor. 

Well, even if I decided to hire a contractor to put a 16:9 screen in the same place, it would not fit. My cheap solution is to install a 100'' 16:9 electric screen in the ceiling before the current one, where there is just enough room for it. It has to be something that is acoustically transparent because the 2 built-in speakers in the sides of the old screen will be behind the newly installed ceiling screen, so I found this:

http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens...8-1-spell&keywords=eleite+accoutically+screen

I'm going with the BenQ W1070 projector, heard wonderful things about it, and yes, I already measured the projecting distance from where I plan to install the projector in the ceiling, seems perfect, right above the couch.

The house has a speaker system with 9 channels, but the current ancient B&K receiver has only 5 channels, so, they used another amplifier connected to it to deliver sound to those remaining channels plus yet another amplifier for the subwoofer. I can replace the whole thing just with 1 nice AVR, and the one I'm looking at is the 9.2 channel Yamaha RX-A2030, priced under 1K seems like a steal to me. There is a newer version of it, the RX-A2040BL, which includes Wi-Fi and 4k video pass-through / 4k video upscaling, but I don't think those extra features worth the additional 600 bucks. I can connect the A2030 to the internet via Ethernet cable and have same network benefits of the more expensive unit.

So, any suggestions? Feel free to chime in!


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

U. R. C. 
Control4
Or a Harmony Ultimate at the very least. 

Beyond that, sounds very and well planned out. 


Very thin strips of Velcro are also very good to use for wire maintenance. It holds like zip ties but you don't have to cut it to add/move/replace a wire or two.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

So, those concepts are strange to me but I think you are talking about home automation. 

Well, the house is already all wired in the old fashion way with control pads with buttons in each level and those round volume knobs in each room that raises the volume incrementally. I was thinking of just using them for now wired to my new system. I thought of replacing those pads in the walls with something nicer, digital pads but not sure I can handle the wiring.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Control4 is automation
URC is a really good universal remote
Harmony is s basic universal remote

Your house distribution is a whole other thing. 
Sonos is quick and scalable but costly. Niles/Russound are flexible with a slightly lower cost especially when doing several rooms. Avoid the abus options they are a pain to retrofit later.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

I hired professional would go a long way with the end results.


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## Serenity Now (Mar 28, 2014)

Yep, hire it out. 48 post into how to fish wire.... long finished if hired out. A pro would go with an cat 6 HDMI balun and be done in 45 mins. Easy fix.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Serenity Now said:


> Yep, hire it out. 48 post into how to fish wire.... long finished if hired out.


I flat out tell customers that I will try my best to prevent holes in walls when running cabling of any sort but I will not hesitate to make holes. In the end labor is the highest cost. I've become one great drywall patcher. 

I've also torn out baseboards to make all my holes down low and also taken crown out to run my cabling also.

many options...


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

After I got the weed wire inside there to use as a guide, I thought I would pull the HDMI like a breeze, did not happen. Turns out wire not traveling in a conduit makes it very difficult to travel pass the obstacles created by lumber across the path. No matter how smooth I taped the HDMI to the wire, it would get stuck. My helper in the other end pushing the cable did not have much control of the direction except for the first couple of inches into the ceiling. 

Not a problem. I figured, if I got the guide wire inside there using a flexible pole from my kids toy tent, that pole could still be the key. It was. Using electric tape, I created a loop in the tip of the pole to drive the previously taped wire-HDMI head into a distance pasted major obstacles and where I could see it in the other end. Then it was just a matter of pulling the wire-HDMI complex, which slid beautifully through the loop in the tip of the pole. I got the HDMI in one end and my helper was able to pull the pole back effortless in the other end. Lots of work and thinking, first to get the wire, then the HDMI cable but it was totally worth it, no holes and no need to call a professional. 

A while ago before I started to think hard about this project, I did call the guy who installed the wiring when the house was being built more than 10 years ago. He is in a completely different business now but remembered how the work was done and he told me straight out that I would need hire someone to do drywall work in order to get that cable in there :nono: :nono::nono:


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

rab-byte said:


> Control4 is automation
> URC is a really good universal remote
> Harmony is s basic universal remote
> 
> ...


Thanks. The AVR once connected to the WiFi has a nice app that will give me control to a lot of different outputs, so that will offer some automation. I do have a Sonos system as well, which I brought from my old house. I'm going to connect it to the AVR and place the speakers in rooms with no built-in ceiling speakers. In fact, I'm planning to use my Sonos connect as a switch to provide internet to the AVR.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Get a switch, a real switch, and avoid using hubs. They don't cost too much even if you got full backplane (get full backplane). Each device you're connecting to the network deserves its own hard wired connection if possible. 

Your AVR app will work the AVR but not the cable box or bluray. That's why I recommend some kind of control. Also I've gotten the impression that your equipment isn't line of sight, so using something with RF control would be prudent.


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## CleveKing (Jan 27, 2015)

I hear you, but that's probably going to be the next project. In the next couple of weeks my goal is to install the new screen, projector and AVR. Since I already have a Sonos connect down there next to where the AVR will be placed, I figured I just use it as a switch for now. I have used it before with other devices as a hub and it worked fine. If I run into some sort of compatibility problem, then the AVR has it's own switch I can buy. 

Right now any universal remote would work because the house is wired with a distribution device for central remote control, i.e. it has a central sensor hidden in one of the speakers that distributes a wired signal to all devices. Each device has a small round transmitter that you stick in front of their remote sensor. Seems a little rustic and outdated but works great and is very reliable. Actually, the AVR remote can be used as universal remote in this case. 

Another problem of automation is that my blu-ray player is my PS4 and I think the only device that can remotely control it right now is its own game controller, but I'm not completely sure.


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