# Which reciever Onkyo TX-SR875 or Denon 3808ci



## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

I'm about to purchase a new receiver to go into my new dedicated HT. I'm debating whether to go with the Onkyo TX-SR875 or Denon 3808ci. They are pretty much the same price and right in my budget of $1200 and under. I'm primarily interested in sound quality for multichannel movies but CD audio, and occasionally radio is still important.

So far the pros and cons pitted against the other

Denon 3808 vs Onkyo 875 
+ Nice GUI
+ Internet Radio
+ Network Streaming
+ Nicer styling on front panel
+ Firmware updates over network
+ USB support
- Not as dynamically powerful
- Lesser DAC (PCM1791a vs PCM1796)
- AL24+ only on FL/FR

Onkyo 875 vs Denon 3808 
+ 140W all channels driven (fairly accurate according to Sound and Vision)
+ THX Ultra2 certified
+ Silicon Optix Reon-HQV upscaling
+ Nicer layout on back panel
+ Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry (I assume on all channels)
- No network support
- No USB
- Heat output

I think I'm leaning towards the Onkyo but am sure about quality issues. Onkyo was first to market with HDMI 1.3 last year, way ahead of Denon. I'm wondering if there was any "haste makes waste" going on at Onkyo and maybe Denon waited longer to test things more thoroughly. Or maybe Onkyo has done some smart engineering and project management to get things to market quicker. 

I really like the fact that the Onkyo is THX Ultra2 certified. Typically I've only seen Ultra2 certification on super high end receivers. I almost thought Lucas's THX dropped in standards when I saw the initial price back in June.

I'd like to see what they have in store for this year. Maybe they will network enable the 875 line, make a better GUI, include a fan in their cases, or other improvements. I don't know what other new technology there is to support.

Other than the network and USB connectivity the Onkyo 875 seems more on par with the Denon 4308ci and beats that in a few places too. I know the 905 is what's usually compared with the 4308 but I think would be more like a 4808 if it existed.

So I guess I have a few questions I still have unanswered.

-Does anyone know if the quality of Dolby True HD or DTS Master HD differs from either receiver?

-Does anyone know if THX labs tests for quality overall (does THX Ultra2 mean this unit is top notch all around)? Or is it just audio and video tests they do?

-I can't A/B them so has anyone, and what did you think?

- Is Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry (VLSC) the same as or same quality as AL24+ processing?

-Do the Onkyo TX-SR805 have the same sound quality as the 3808?

Any other opinions welcome of course so long as their not biased. I am a Denon fan and think they have great receivers but Onkyo has some excellent choices this year.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I believe this will come down to features. I am doubting there will be any sound quality difference with these receivers, although that might depend on you speakers. 

If I am not mistaken the Onkyo does have a better power supply, therefore the rated power may be more accurate, which may affect sound quality at higher volumes.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

I did quite a bit of searching and found the VLSC is pretty much the same as AL24 processing. They both work on the digital PCM signal to make it a smoother analog signal when converted by the DAC. The TX-SR875 does this on all channels where as the 3808ci does it only on the FR/FL. I didn't like that on the 2808ci and found that it made the center channel seem bright.

Unless something else happens to change my mind I'm 99% in favor of the 875. I'll just have to come up with an aesthetically pleasing way to stick some fans on it.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

On the 805 I placed a 120mm clear fan on the back right corner as that seems to be the warm spot and it seems to do the trick without the noise as it has a three position speed sw on the cable and I leave it at medium. 
The power supply is the big difference and adds almost 10lbs to the overall weight of it compared to the equivalent Denon. That alone is a big plus because ultimately the output level of the amp is limited to what the power supply can deliver.
Dont get me wrong The Denon is a nice receiver and you would not be unhappy with either units but the THX ultra is a big deal and you get lots of THX modes with that certification that are very useful.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I'm looking at the 805 and I am also a little concerned about heat since my cabinet only has a front opening. I suppose I could just lay a fan on top of it near the rear of the unit. As low as it will be in the cabinet, it will be hard to notice.

I wonder how exactly the VLSC is able to make a signal smoother. :scratch: It sounds a little like hocus pocus. Are you familiar with how the technology works?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> I'm looking at the 805 and I am also a little concerned about heat since my cabinet only has a front opening. I suppose I could just lay a fan on top of it near the rear of the unit. As low as it will be in the cabinet, it will be hard to notice.


How much space would you have above it if you were to place it in the cabinet? could you cut a hole in the back to allow air movement?


> I wonder how exactly the VLSC is able to make a signal smoother. :scratch: It sounds a little like hocus pocus. Are you familiar with how the technology works?


The little I have read about it its My understanding is that it imitates the warm sound you get from a tube amp and that it doesn't color the sound. Go here for a little diagram
Pure mode for two channel listening is really nice.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I might could cut a hole in the side of the cabinet and vent it to one of the enclosed cabinets. I'm going to snap a pic of it and start a new thread in a bit.

That VLSC looks interesting, but I wonder about that kind of stuff... if it really works and is noticeable. I remember back in the day enthusiast use to make a big deal out of DAC. I remember those little boxes selling for thousands of dollars. I'll probably start a thread about that too and see what kind of scoop we can generate on it.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> I'll probably start a thread about that too and see what kind of scoop we can generate on it.


Good idea as I cant find much info on it when doing a search.

The Onkyo defiantly needs space to breath and a fan is a must if you have it in an enclosed location.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

Well I’m still without a receiver. I’m going a bit crazy trying to decide which one. I had initially thought about getting the Onkyo SR875, but I think it might push me over budget. Unless I can convince the wife to take a mini vacation in the US for a weekend and pick one up (and avoid some of the duty and shipping) I’ll have to scrap that idea. The 3808 is the same.

I’ve been reading that HDMI 1.3 is not that important so long as the receiver will process LPCM over HDMI. All HD players have to decode the audio to mix in PIP and menu effects, etc so what will I really gain from having it re-encode it back to lossless rather than send it as PCM.

So I’ve considered either the Onkyo TX-SR805, the Denon 4306 or the Marantz SR8001. I can get the Denon (used) or the Marantz (refurbished) for a little over $900 shipped and the Onkyo for about $800. I can get a Warrantech warranty on the Marantz for piece of mind, but the other would not have a warranty or would be void outside of the USA.

The Marantz looks like it might be better in some aspects. It has HDMI 1.2 as opposed to 1.1. It also boasts gold connectors, THX Select, and a toroidal amp. The Onkyo is a current model and has THX Ultra2 and HDMI 1.3. The 4306 has network capabilities and USB support.

It's a very tough decision and there are so many choices I probably haven't even considered. My budget max is $1300 all said and done. Any recommendations would be welcomed.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Seriously give the Onkyo 805 a good hard look. There is very little difference between it and the 875 and it still has all the options. For music the 805 is fantastic as it has the Pure direct mode and as you said has THX ultra certification and the bigest is HDMI 1.3 you need that no questions.
Take it from a owner who has one the 805 is the one to go with. Everyone that has come over to give it a listen is very impressed. The power supply in it is huge and because of this it has no trouble driving all channels at 130watts very few if any receivers in its price range can do that. 
My only and I say only small complaint is when it switches between modes like DTS and DD for example during the previews there is a delay of about one second where there is no sound. This is a well documented issue and by no means is a problem. Just make sure that you have the room to give it breathing space as it does get warm (not hot like some say). Particularly if running 4 ohm speakers.


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## Plasmaman (Nov 13, 2007)

I own an 805 and it is an amazing receiver. Just be aware that you may experience a lip sync issue where the sound lags behind the video by about 30ms. I don't notice it when watching DVD's or playing games but I do see it sometimes when watching Expressvu. It seems to be that a slight amount of lip sync lag on the network signals is exaggerated by the 805. BTW I used to live in London by White Oaks Mall. :bigsmile:


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

I had ExpressVu for a couple years and experienced lip-sync issues even thought it was connected straight to my TV. Rogers doesn't seem to have that problem...so far.

I've pretty much decided on the Denon 4306. I found someone fairly local so I'll avoid the duty and shipping charges. I was happy with the 3805 and the 4306 is basically the same unit on steroids.


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## Plasmaman (Nov 13, 2007)

MatrixDweller said:


> I had ExpressVu for a couple years and experienced lip-sync issues even thought it was connected straight to my TV. Rogers doesn't seem to have that problem...so far.
> 
> I've pretty much decided on the Denon 4306. I found someone fairly local so I'll avoid the duty and shipping charges. I was happy with the 3805 and the 4306 is basically the same unit on steroids.


Let us know how the 4306 works out for you. The 4306 is HDMI 1.1 not 1.3 maybe that's not important to you.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Plasmaman said:


> Let us know how the 4306 works out for you. The 4306 is HDMI 1.1 not 1.3 maybe that's not important to you.


Not to mention no THX modes and lower quality BurrBrown DAC's
Are you sure you wont regret this move, down the road not being HDMI 1.3 compliant is also a big concern. I think Denon is a great company but comparing the Denon 4306 to the Onkyo is like comparing an apple to a water melon.


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

The 4306 is updateable off the Denon website and I know of a number of people that have problems driving 4 ohm loads with Onkyo and I have never heard of an issue driving any load with a Denon. 

So far as lower qualit DAC's, question is are the newer DACs causing the reported issues with the Onkyo which might be why Denon opted out? And is there an audible difference?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

jakewash said:


> I know of a number of people that have problems driving 4 ohm loads with Onkyo


What receivers do they use. The 805, 875 and 905 are THX Ultra2 certified and must be able to drive 3.2ohms at full load. My main speakers are 4ohms and the my 805 has no issues.



> As far as lower quality DAC's, question is are the newer DACs causing the reported issues with the Onkyo which might be why Denon opted out?


Nope, The Onlyo's have fully adjustable independent settings for lip sync on all inputs so its never been an issue for me.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

Plasmaman said:


> Let us know how the 4306 works out for you. The 4306 is HDMI 1.1 not 1.3 maybe that's not important to you.


I picked up a gently used 4306 last weekend and am enjoying it immensely. I do miss some of the neat extra features the 2808 had like input removing and the better Audyssey setup and mic. I'm not regretting the sound difference though.

HDMI 1.3 really isn't going to come into play for another couple years I think. All current and probably future players will convert the lossless codecs and spit them out as LPCM which will pass over HDMI 1.1. I'm not sure what difference does it make if the player or receiver does the conversion. Deep color is not supported by Bluray currently and would probably need a new profile to do so. HDMI 1.3 is not really that important right now (to me at least).

We'll see how long I hang onto the 4306 for. For now I'm happy but tomorrow I might find a deal I can't pass up. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has this obsession.


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## Guest (Feb 29, 2008)

Having had my Onkyo 875 for about six weeks and having read about all the problems this receiver is alleged to have with heat, I can tell you that I've had absolutely no problems with heat nor has it seemed hotter than my previous Yamaha DSP-A1. My receiver sits on the top of my open rack. The sound and video scaling are outstanding. The sound delays noted are primarly with my DirectV DVR and have to do with the HDMI handshake when the DVR is set to Dolby Digital. I, too, checked out the Denon offerings and did not find them upto to the Onkyo's specs. I recommend the Onkyo as the better receiver and value.


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

Did some more digging to find out about the audio issue I mentioned and it is a handshake issue with one of the sattelite networks in the states, as Douglas was so king to mention, not a big deal but would be annoying to me.

I have seen on other forums' members mention shut down with 4 ohm loads with any of the ones you mentioned Tony. I am sure it must be an isolated issue otherwise Onkyo would not be able to attain the THX certification. 

On a side note I have run my 3808 with 1.5 ohm loads(3 center channels, one of which a 6 ohm speaker) and never have had it shut down or any problems, so the Denon is a viable option as well. I would bring attention to the network port, especially if you want to do any audio streaming, as it is built in and it will do firmware updates through the port as well. You can also listen to internet radio through it too.

Just something else to think about.


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## lienly (Sep 4, 2006)

no wonder 905 drive my Westlake well......
so next amp, still have to get THX. maybe that moment has THX3.......:yay:



tonyvdb said:


> What receivers do they use. The 805, 875 and 905 are THX Ultra2 certified and must be able to drive 3.2ohms at full load. My main speakers are 4ohms and the my 805 has no issues.


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## kjgarrison (Nov 17, 2007)

The more I read, the more perplexed I get. This thread has been more informative than any I've found to date.

Still ....

Considering the variability possible with *settings*, and considering *my audiogram*, I don't think how any of these sound will make a bit of a difference.

So to me it is all about features and support of customers by Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, etc.

The features that I find myself thinking about most are:

video processing ... does the HQV matter vs Faroujda (sp?)
ethernet connectivity ... I don't even know if I need this, but it sounds like something good (and expensive)
complexity of setup and ease of use ... of course this could just be just another viewpoint for capability and flexibility

USB port ... other than firmware upgrades, not sure if it matters to me

Audessey capability ... they all have it, so not a differentiating factor

COMPANY SUPPORT. A BIGGIE for me. I live out in the country 75 miles from the nearest repair center, and any unit that I have to take to them for something as simple as firmware upgrade is automatically out of the picture. I had thought Onkyo fit this description, but it appears that owners are getting the new fw and upgrading themselves. But since it doesn't APPEAR to be Onkyo's policy, I worry that future upgrades might not be available. Also, how willing is each company to acknowledge problems and fix them?

BUGS: A/V sync, audio delay, catching on fire, too hot, HDMI handshake problems, to name a few that I've seen in the forums. Most of these are associated with the Onkyos, but I know other AVRs have issues as well.

I probably forgot to list something. That's how perplexed I am!

These type things are less subjective than things like "listen for yourself". I don't have ANY AVR, so I'm sure all of these would be spectacular from the A/V standpoint. It's the "rest of the story" that I am concerned with.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

kjgarrison said:


> video processing ... does the HQV matter vs Faroujda (sp?)


Yes it makes a difference, HQV is better particularly if you are upscailing 480 or 720 video sources for straight through 1080 video it really doesn't matter.


> ethernet connectivity ... I don't even know if I need this, but it sounds like something good (and expensive) & USB port ... other than firmware upgrades, not sure if it matters to me


It depends if you have a desire to listen to mp3's from your pc or stream other media. I have no need for it myself.


> complexity of setup and ease of use ... of course this could just be just another viewpoint for capability and flexibility


any of the receivers in this price range have complex setups but this is necessary if you want the flexibility.



> COMPANY SUPPORT


I am fairly sure that any of the big 3 (Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha) will be easy to get support and firmware updates.


> BUGS: A/V sync, audio delay, catching on fire, too hot, HDMI handshake problems, to name a few that I've seen in the forums. Most of these are associated with the Onkyos, but I know other AVRs have issues as well.


 Seriously regarding Onkyo I know of several owners on here and none of us have had any of the issues mentioned. The audio delay you mention is an issue with some sat. receivers connected to the Onkyos and there is an adjustment to fix this in the menu.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2008)

I went with the safer bet, 3808. To many issues with the 805.


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## Plasmaman (Nov 13, 2007)

shokhead said:


> I went with the safer bet, 3808. To many issues with the 805.


A very wise decision. I went through two Onkyo 805's :surrender: after having multiple issues with both :thumbsdown:. I exchanged it for the Denon 3808 :T. I couldn't be happier.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2008)

I know a lot of 805 owners have no problems but i also know to many do and i just haven't read that many problems with the Denon.


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

From what I have read recently the latest firmware update for the Onkyo was supposed to fix the audio issue but many are reporting it didn't help.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2008)

And how does the Onkyo get the FW updates vs how the 3808 does?


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## kjgarrison (Nov 17, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> Yes it makes a difference, HQV is better particularly if you are upscailing 480 or 720 video sources for straight through 1080 video it really doesn't matter.
> 
> It depends if you have a desire to listen to mp3's from your pc or stream other media. I have no need for it myself.
> 
> ...


Thanks!


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## kjgarrison (Nov 17, 2007)

shokhead said:


> And how does the Onkyo get the FW updates vs how the 3808 does?


That is the question I am most interested in. This is really a two part issue. First, how are fw's made available and distributed. Second, how is the fw actually installed (i.e., USB?)

My understanding is that leaked Onkyo fw's have been distributed online, not by Onkyo however. It would be reassuring to know that any fw was "official" and that future fw's would also be available, and neither condition appears to be met. Shlepping and driving this 50 pound beast to a service center and leaving it there for who knows how long is most undesirable for all of us, especially those of us that live an hour away from the nearest center.

I don't know if these service center interactions are included in the warranty, but I assume they would be. It's hard to understand why a company would be willing to increase it's cost of service and make service and support a negative selling point for their product.

My understanding is that Denon support is better with distribution of official fw upgrades (and maybe not even needed as much?)


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## Plasmaman (Nov 13, 2007)

jakewash said:


> From what I have read recently the latest firmware update for the Onkyo was supposed to fix the audio issue but many are reporting it didn't help.


Onkyo had to create a fix (which has not been officially released by Onkyo) for what was known as the "DTS bomb", certain DVD's mastered with DTS would emit a very loud sound and if playback levels were high enough, could damage speakers. Some optimistic people thought Onkyo would have included a fix for the audio delay too. From emails other people have received from Onkyo tech support, they stated the audio delay is a result of "using high quality cascaded DSP chips". Each one adds a small audio delay. Normally this is not an issue but the way Onkyo has implemented them creates a fixed delay of around 30ms. This is fixed in hardware and can't be adjusted by the user although you can trick the delay to be less by setting your speaker distance parameter to 30ft.

The firmware can be downloaded and burned to an audio CD. Using a CD player or DVD player with a digital optical connection to the receiver, you can upload the firmware to the Onkyo. Some people have reported problems doing this with certain hardware. With the Denon (asuming your ethernet connection is setup) you just go into the GUI menu and tell the receiver to check for an update.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2008)

Now i thought i had read the Onkyo didn't work with a FW burnt to a disc that you had to take the receiver in to an authorized dealer. I hope i'm wrong on what i think i read.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yes, The Onkyo will update using a standard CDr played on a CD player.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2008)

That's good.


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## Nurn (May 7, 2008)

I was torn between the two receivers when I shopped around, but got worried about alleged lip synch and heat issues with the Onkyo. I know many Onkyo users have not had any problems, but it was reported enough to cause me to worry. I ended up going with the Denon 3808, and I must say that I am impressed (and to an extent also overwhelmed) by its features and capabilities. Adding it to your home network and streaming audio files (WAV, MP3 and FLAC) from your PC is a feature I didn't really consider too important at first, but now I use it as my main source for listening to music. I have no regrets.


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## HionHiFi (Feb 18, 2007)

MatrixDweller said:


> -Does anyone know if the quality of Dolby True HD or DTS Master HD differs from either receiver?


Trust me, your not going to be able to tell with this class of receiver. 



MatrixDweller said:


> -Does anyone know if THX labs tests for quality overall (does THX Ultra2 mean this unit is top notch all around)? Or is it just audio and video tests they do?


Keep in mind, THX is mainly a quality assurance system. A receiver not labeled as THX may perform to THX specifications. Or it may not. I trust that many higher end receiver's starting with something like the Denon 2308ci would pass THX cert. without being labeled. This is pure speculation, but the idea is sound. THX is mainly a quality assurance system. 



MatrixDweller said:


> - Is Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry (VLSC) the same as or same quality as AL24+ processing?


Pretty much. Except as pointed out by others Onkyo applies it to all channels. 



MatrixDweller said:


> -Do the Onkyo TX-SR805 have the same sound quality as the 3808?


Similar. It's going to subjective thing. 

I own a 3808ci, but I have owned many Onkyo's in the past. I like Onkyo very much actually, and had a VERY difficult time deciding between the 3808ci, and the 875 from Onkyo. In the end, I decided to go with the 905 instead, because the Network audio sitaution was a factor for me. In the end, of end's I ended up with a 3808ci and haven't looked back. It has been awesome.


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