# What do you think of these speakers?



## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

I have upgraded to a Onkyo 807 , and now want to see about my speakers. Room is 15 widex18 long , it will be used for 99% movies , and 1% music. If what i suggest is a waste of money tell me that. I really want to go with small speakers in this room. I have seen a sale on the POLK RM75 set for $ 239.00 shipped and the KLIPSCH HD300 for $ 269.00 shipped and two Onkyo sets the SKS-HT870 for $279.00 and the HT540 for $159.00. If non of these are decent i will wait to next summer and try to save more money . Thoughts ???


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

mandtra said:


> Onkyo sets the SKS-HT870 and the HT540


This will be my options (if you want to buy now :innocent, they have a better frequency response than the other two. 

The Polk's remind me of my first system (I got the Infinity TSS750, that I used for a couple of months, then upgraded for better speakers); the reason I upgraded was the frequency response.... as you can see the speakers are good from around 120-130Hz, so you need to set your crossover high; sometimes is easy to localize the sub (unless you don't care about this)... is suggested that the crossover need to be set at 80Hz, that will not be a problem with any of the Onkyo systems, the frequency response start at 50-55Hz... way below the crossover point :T

Good luck...


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

maybe i should ask a different way. What is the best sounding 5.1 speakers for 500.00 or less?


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

mandtra said:


> maybe i should ask a different way. What is the best sounding 5.1 speakers for 500.00 or less?


That's hard to say.... there's a lot of variables involved: personal taste, room size, placement, AVR used to power them, calibration, wall treatments, etc, etc...

The best way to decide is to try them in your room (probably will be hard); then you can decide which one you like better :T


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

i had rather use something small, but would i be better off buying separates? instead of a set? 
I currently have 2 Epicure 120's : http://www.humanspeakers.com/e/epi-120-3.htm listed here ,
2 Advent bookshelf speakers for rears, and Advent audio focus center listed here: http://www.amazon.com/Advent-Bookshelf-Stereo-Center-Speaker/dp/B001ER8TII . The last thing i want to do is buy something that is no better than what i have now


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

mandtra said:


> maybe i should ask a different way. What is the best sounding 5.1 speakers for 500.00 or less?


Have you tried going out and actually listening to some speakers? That's how people usually buy speakers. Asking someone else how a speaker sounds is like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer and asking a stranger how it feels.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I would think you would be better off just saving a few more bucks and getting something decent then just getting something to fill the space. You could get something like this.http://reviews.cnet.com/surround-sp...tics-cs2310c-cherry/4505-7868_7-33497144.html This is just my opinion ofcourse but speakers are the most important part of your system and I know budgets are tight now but if you could just wait and save a bit more then I think you will be happier in the long run. I agree with auditioning speakers if you can.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

mandtra said:


> maybe i should ask a different way. What is the best sounding 5.1 speakers for 500.00 or less? Room is 15 widex18 long.


I looked hard at Mirage nanosat, 5.0 for $315...leaves you $185 for a sub. From what Ive read, these lack great imaging but sound awesome for the money. Never listened to them, but then I never listened to my current set up and Im pretty pleased thus far.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
500 Dollars for 5 Speakers and a Subwoofer definitely presents a challenge. In truth, you might want to explore the used route for Speakers. Paradigm, Klipsch, PSB, for instance are all very well made Speakers and are built to last.

Since HT is your main deal, Klipsch well might be the best choice. Given how efficient they are, they really will play much louder than most other Speakers at the same level.

For a Subwoofer, I would look at the Dayton Sub 120. It is available for 150 Dollars from Amazon and for the money is fantastic.
Cheers,
JJ


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

This Klipch set up is in your budget...http://dw.com.com/redir?ontid=7868&...heater-500/4505-7868_7-33549715.html?tag=also


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

The $500 is for the five speakers only , i already have a good sub


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I meant to point out Klipsch's Packages, but got a Phone Call and got off track. What I do not like about them is that they do not have Binding Posts instead opting for Spring Clip Terminals.
Cheers,
JJ


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

mandtra said:


> The $500 is for the five speakers only , i already have a good sub


Oh, then youre looking for 5.0 speakers, not 5.1. Then I recommend 4 Infinity 162's ($85 each) $340, plus a Infinity PC250 $150. All shipped, new, and factory authorized.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

I would also recommend seeing what is available used in your area and go listen to them. New in the area of $500 I can only think of Definitive Technology CinemaPro 600 however it is more like $700.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

IMHO i think i would dig a little deeper in the pockets for better quality speakers, i know it's not feasable for everyone to do this, otherwise i'd try to find somthing in the used market but i still think you'l get out of your price range.:dontknow:


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

ok,I will save more money. How much do you suggest? what would be the speaker setup you would recommend ?


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

There isn't really any place to go and listen to speakers. Frys , bestbuy , are jokes around here. Besides i probably wouldn't know the difference anyway. I'm sure most anything would be better than what i currently have. Please remember though , this setup will be 99% Bluray movie watching & 1% music. I want something good for home theater use . it can be just ok for music if it's really good for movies

*** how do you feel about ** Klipsch Synergy SF1 used for $ 150.00 , or 4 Infinity P162's $200.00 ,


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

mandtra said:


> maybe i should ask a different way. What is the best sounding 5.1 speakers for 500.00 or less?


I think the Klipsch HD300 are a top contenter in the sub $500 range.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/tests-reviews/speakers/2009/09/klipsch-hd-theater-300
http://hi-techreview.info/2010/09/06/klipsch-hd-300-theater-system/


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

mandtra said:


> The $500 is for the five speakers only , i already have a good sub


The new Klipsch Quintet IV for $550 are smokin' good, and will easily fill your 15x18 room to theater volumes as well. These are the 5.0 speakers I have my eye on to compliment my Klipsch sub, when I upgrade my receiver to the Denon avr-1911 5.1 receiver. The IV's are an upgrade to the highly regarded Quartet III. They have improved spacial imaging because of the new horn design and smoother sound because of a new x-over. Klipsch excel in dialogue clarity, dynamics for effects, and presence for ambient sounds. Plus they play music quite well as an added bonus for you.

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/klipsch-quintet-overview/


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

mjcmt said:


> The new Klipsch Quintet IV for $550 are smokin' good, and will easily fill your 15x18 room to theater volumes as well. These are the 5.0 speakers I have my eye on to compliment my Klipsch sub, when I upgrade my receiver to the Denon avr-1911 5.1 receiver. The IV's are an upgrade to the highly regarded Quartet III. They have improved spacial imaging because of the new horn design and smoother sound because of a new x-over. Klipsch excel in dialogue clarity, dynamics for effects, and presence for ambient sounds. Plus they play music quite well as an added bonus for you.
> 
> http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/klipsch-quintet-overview/


Perhaps theyre a good option in his price range but would leave him with a large gap in freq response that the Infinity wont.

120Hz-23kHz
125Hz-23kHz

or

49Hz - 20kHz
80Hz - 20kHz

IMHO, in a home theater application its '80HZ or go home' kinda thing.


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

I found a set locally for $ 200 new in the box Klipsch HD300


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

are you talking about the Infinity P162's how are they? they were suggested to me and i have found a MINT set of four with stands for $200.00


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Yes, read my previous posts. I recommended four 162's and a pc250 for $490 new factory authorized. Im very pleased, though the 162s are just my surrounds and I have the 350 instead. Coming from a Bose background, a full range home theater is a refreshing change of sound for me. Im very pleased thus far. At $85 a piece the only competition with that freq response are few and far between.

If you can save on the 162's I would upgrade to the 350


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

TypeA said:


> Perhaps theyre a good option in his price range but would leave him with a large gap in freq response that the Infinity wont.
> 
> 120Hz-23kHz
> 125Hz-23kHz
> ...


Not true if his sub goes to 120hz, which all do except maybe the cheapest. I've used tiny monitors w/ my Klipsch sub w/ a x-over point of 120 hz and it is quite impressive. In fact most of the small 5.1 speaker systems monitors x-over at 150-300hz...now that is a hole. That is what I liked about the Quintet. It reaches to the top limit of most subs for a tiny speaker, and sounds good too...all for $550.:T 

Of course if you have more $$ monitors reaching lower would leave the sub to handle only the lowest frequencies, but a good monitor w/ dig down to 40hz, which would be great for music listening w/o a sub. But he is looking for a budget HT system and the Klipsch are quite nice IMHO. And they are some of the best built and best looking mini speakers.


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

TypeA said:


> Perhaps theyre a good option in his price range but would leave him with a large gap in freq response that the Infinity wont.
> 
> 120Hz-23kHz
> 125Hz-23kHz
> ...


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

In the case of the Klipsch the monitors go from 23Khz - 120hz and the your sub goes from 120hz - say 30hz, so your overall frequency response would be 23khz - 30hz with no hole in the sound. The monitors cover the mid bass, mids, and highs and the sub covers the lows.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

> I don't know how to compare freq response. The top two set of numbers are for the Klipsch and the bottom are for the Infinity ? and the lower numbers are better? how do i compare the numbers , and what do i look for?


The smaller the Hz number, the lower the speaker goes. As you can see, the Infinity eats the Klipsch for lunch. Sure, you could cross over to the sub at '120 Hz' but I have no idea why you would go that route when, for the same money, you could cross over much lower at 80Hz instead. I suppose if you need a real small speaker the Klipsch might be better.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

mjcmt said:


> Not true if his sub goes to 120hz, which all do except maybe the cheapest.


Correct, my bad. But isnt there a loss of imaging crossing over at such a high freq?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Crossing over at more than 80 hz can create localization issues. The frequencies from 80 on up may sound like they are coming from you sub's location instead of your speaker's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

is it more important to use speakers that covers the low end such as 49hz - 20 khz or the high-end 95hz -24khz would you notice a difference while watching movies with either? would there be things you wouldnt hear?


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

> is it more important to use speakers that covers the low end such as 49hz - 20 khz or the high-end 95hz -24khz would you notice a difference while watching movies with either? would there be things you wouldnt hear?


The consensus is 80Hz and lower is non directional. In other words, all your speakers (including surrounds rears ect) should be able to go as low as 80Hz as anything above that freq is directional. Yes, a speaker that goes lower than 80Hz is a waste in a home theater application, however speakers that come up short of going that low the sub will be required to send freqs higher than 80Hz which can be located with your ear, to make up for how low your speakers WONT go (such as in the case of the HD300 package). Since a sub will rarely be pointed at your ear, and anything higher than 80Hz starts to get localized with your ear (you can start to tell when the sound is coming from), its NOT suggested to ask your sub to produce anything higher than 80Hz.


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

Now i understand, the light in my head just went on. Thank you very much for explaining it to me.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

Maybe someone can chime in on this *psycho-acoustic* observation. 

In theory the 80hz cut off point makes technical sense, but in practicality will you noticed that sound shifting between the speakers? 80hz to 120 hz is only 1/2 an octave, so how noticeable is the sound shifting from the monitor to the sub in this area. (And if your sub is positioned between (or near) the L/R speaker it may be even less aparent.) Budget HTIB systems and small 5.1 speaker systems can have an actual 1 to 1-2/3 octave sonic hole between 120hz to 300-500hz, an area where there is more sonic information than 80hz-120hz range that is represented. Plus we aren't talking about missing info but perceived soundstage positioning in a small 1/2 octave bass range. I will bet that room acoustics plays a bigger part in the overall scheme. Its not going to be noticeable when you consider that the sound only augments the viewing experience of a movie. 

Initially this thread was talking about a $500 5.0 speaker system. Budget, speaker size, and placement factor in to the total picture.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

JBL L820 
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MQP3KO...e=asn&creative=395105&creativeASIN=B000MQP3KO

These are out of your price range but just something to think about (they can be had for much cheaper).
Recently a friend was asking advice on which 5.1 speaker set to buy. Like you, he didn't have much money and was checking out cheap all-in-one solutions. 
I suggested he would be much happier with quality over quantity. Buy 2 very good speakers now, later add a center channel and sub, then later add the rear speakers as money permits. Listening to 2 of these JBL's would sound so much better than a cheap 5.1 set-up. These play low enough that you can get by without a sub for awhile and the imaging is so wide that you can get by without a center channel for awhile.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

mjcmt said:


> Maybe someone can chime in on this *psycho-acoustic* observation.
> In theory the 80hz cut off point makes technical sense, but in practicality will you noticed that sound shifting between the speakers? so how noticeable is the sound shifting from the monitor to the sub in this area.


The quick answer is: it's very noticeable.
This observation is coming from someone who has listened to full range tower speakers his whole life, 41years. My father always had huge honkin' speakers, then out on my own have always used full range tower speakers for home theater since 1995 (I did have the Bose accoustimass system while living in an apartment at one time).
I have always run my main speakers down to about 40 or 50hz and then the sub would go down from there. For several years I kept reading about this magical 80hz crossover point. I finally tried it earlier this year and didn't like it at all. The 50-80hz area did hit alot harder coming from my subs but the quality of the sound wasn't nearly as good as when coming from my main speakers. And to finally answer your question, yes 60-80hz does have directionality and I couldn't stand 'hearing' sound come out of my subs that were off to the side.
I tried listening with that set-up for a week but couldn't take it any longer and reverted back to my old ways.
This is an observation made with my set-up, others may vary. 

Read more: Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com - Reply to Topic


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

gdstupak said:


> The 50-80hz area did hit alot harder coming from my subs but the quality of the sound wasn't nearly as good as when coming from my main speakers.


Your comment makes a case for the importance of a high quality sub, and one that balances well with your mains, a very hard feat to accomplish. I myself have always used full range (or mostly full range) speakers for music. In watching movies with a sub/sat system I was pleased w/ the movie experience with sats that x-over to subs at 120hz, but I would not recommend it for music appreciation where the sonic sound stage replaces the picture of a movie.


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

so are you saying you did away with your sub entirely? or you lowered the crossover ?


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

mjcmt said:


> Your comment makes a case for the importance of a high quality sub, and one that balances well with your mains, a very hard feat to accomplish. I myself have always used full range (or mostly full range) speakers for music. In watching movies with a sub/sat system I was pleased w/ the movie experience with sats that x-over to subs at 120hz, but I would not recommend it for music appreciation where the sonic sound stage replaces the picture of a movie.


If i understand you. Your saying your satisfied with the sound and effects when using satellite mains and rears that go down to 120hz and let the sub handle everything from there?


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

mandtra said:


> so are you saying you did away with your sub entirely? or you lowered the crossover ?


I use my subs.
My full range main speakers play all the way down to 40hz.
Then I lower my sub crossover so my subs play from 40hz down to below 20hz.

Here is a very good website to get an idea of what frequency (hertz or hz) matches what pitch of sound with examples of instruments:
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

mandtra said:


> If i understand you. Your saying your satisfied with the sound and effects when using satellite mains and rears that go down to 120hz and let the sub handle everything from there?


Sounds very good for movies to me, and I don't seem to notice any directionality from the sub from 80hz-120hz. I think the reason is three-fold 1.) room acoustic diffuse bass, 2.) I'm engrossed in the visuals of the movie, and 3.) the systems I've heard had the sub in the vicinity of the L or R speaker. (In an audiophile HT w/ more money to spend you can up the ante on system design.) 

My only thoughts are to make sure the sat spkrs reach down to about 120hz (give or take 5hz) and the sub reaches up to 120hz so there is no gapping sonic hole like some budget spkr systems offer. (My research shows that sat speakers with 3-1/2" mid/bass drivers reach to 120 hz.) And pick a system w/ a decent sub that is pretty tight and not just boomy for clean bass and distinct sfx.

There are many options out there, but in a budget system I'm partial to the Klipsch Quintet IV 5.0 sat speakers ($550) and Klipsch RPW10 10" sub ($390) for $940 total retail. Or w/ the SW350 sub for $40 less.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

mjcmt said:


> Sounds very good for movies too me, and I don't seem to notice any directionality from the sub from 80hz-120hz. I think the reason is that 2.) I'm engrossed in the visuals of the movie,


With the crossover set to 80hz, I had the exact opposite experience. I could 'hear' the sound coming out of the subs which totally distracted me while I was trying to watch movies. One example is watching/listening to my OAR concert Bluray. It's very distracting hearing the electric bass guitar and kick drums coming out of the subs beside you instead of from the front of the room. While watching Star Wars I can hear the lower depths of Darth Vader's voice coming from the subs.



mjcmt said:


> and 3.) the systems I've heard had the sub in the vicinity of the L or R speaker.


This does help greatly but not possible with my lay-out for the near future. And there is still the problem of getting quality sound from the sub as compared to a good main speaker.


mjcmt: earlier you mentioned the need for a quality sub to sound correct but you're suggesting a $390 sub. IMO under $500 is not a quality sub, it won't sound bad, bad it won't sound good.


mandtra: I hope you read and are at least contemplating what I suggested several posts earlier (post #34) about buying higher priced quality speakers and doing it in stages so it's affordable. I promise you will enjoy 2 very good speakers more than 5 budget speakers.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

gdstupak said:


> I use my subs.
> My full range main speakers play all the way down to 40hz.
> Then I lower my sub crossover so my subs play from 40hz down to below 20hz.


What amplification are you using for your speakers? Your center and sats go that low too? 40Hz sounds pretty demanding.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

gdstupak said:


> mjcmt: earlier you mentioned the need for a quality sub to sound correct but you're suggesting a $390 sub. IMO under $500 is not a quality sub, it won't sound bad, bad it won't sound good.


I'm sorry about the confusion as there are a number of conversations going on in this thread.
I was talking about your higher end system w/ full range speakers, not for a $500 5.0 spkr system that the original poster is looking for. He has a sub and a small speaker budget so I have been trying to advise him for a movie only system. I included a sub option in keeping w/ his small budget. I'm trying to be encouraging to mandtra w/ his $500 budget, and not disparaging. I'm trying to find reasonable compromises that will not adversely affect his goal. The 80-120hz speaker shift is minor in the scheme. If you have enjoyed movies on a 2-channel, crt system (like me) for so long, a budget 5.1 HT system is a good way to enter into and really enjoy home theater. I have my money tied up into an audiophile music system.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

mjcmt said:


> I was talking about your higher end system w/ full range speakers, not for a $500 5.0 spkr system that the original poster is looking for. He has a sub and a small speaker budget so I have been trying to advise him for a movie only system. I included a sub option in keeping w/ his small budget.


You are correct if he can't wait and wants the full system now. I apologize if I sounded combative earlier, I wasn't trying to be, just getting my experience out there.
But do you agree that he would probably be happier buying much better speakers (maybe 2 for around $500 now, and then when money permits buying more good surround sound speakers).

mandtra: I guess I should ask directly. Would you want good sound quality if you could get it? Or do you really not care and just want something that doesn't suck?
Be honest, we won't judge negatively if you just want something that puts out basic sound. You do care enough that you got a good AVR, not some entry level budget AVR. Why get a good AVR and then use it with budget speakers?


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

I have decided not to buy a packaged set of satellites. However I have been looking into used speakers.

Please give thoughts on the following: would this be a higher quality setup?

MAINS: Klipsch kg 3.5 for $100.00 , Klipsch F2's for $300.00 , Klipsch RVX 42 for 300.00 , Polk Monitor60 for $ 240.00

Center: Klipsch Synergy C-2 for $75.00

REARS: Infinity P162's for $ 100 , Polk RM75 for $ 80.00 , Klipsch B-2 for 100.00 ( i need something small here)

SUB: Klipsch sub -10 for $ 100.00 **** all prices are for pairs*****


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

mandtra said:


> I have decided not to buy a packaged set of satellites. However I have been looking into used speakers.
> 
> Please give thoughts on the following: would this be a higher quality setup?
> 
> ...


Just to verify, you found a PAIR of 162's for $100?

BTW, do not mix and match manufactures for this set up. Maintain tonal balance by going with ALL one manufacture for 5.0 (and its preferred you also stay within the same class from that manufacture).


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

TypeA said:


> What amplification are you using for your speakers? Your center and sats go that low too? 40Hz sounds pretty demanding.


My front 3 speakers are pushed by an ATI AT1506 amp (6 amps bridged into 3 channels, 450 watts/ch).
-The main L/R speakers (JBL S312 II's) are eq'ed down to 45ish-hz.
-The center (JBL Studio center) has crossover at 120hz. It plays confidently down to 60hz but below 120hz it sounds kinda boxy because it sits atop the tv and my eq doesn't adjust below 150hz for it.
-The surrounds (JBL 6" in ceiling speakers, powered by the Onkyo AVR) sound best with crossover at 100hz, again they will play much lower but sound a bit boxy.
-Subwoofers: 1 HSU VTF-2. And 1 DIY 15"er that is tuned for accurate reproduction, not boom-boom. They are eq'ed from 45ish-hz and lower.


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

TypeA said:


> Just to verify, you found a PAIR of 162's for $100?


yes , actually he has 2 pairs for $100.00 each pair purchased in march of 2010


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

A quick but very important suggestion.
Many manufacturers have a line of speakers that are matched for each other. They use a certain model for the L/R speakers and then a different special model for the center speaker. No matter how well matched, 90% of the time the center will sound different from the L/R speakers.

Try to find a set of speakers where all 3 are exactly the same model.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

mandtra said:


> yes , actually he has 2 pairs for $100.00 each pair purchased in march of 2010


That's a good price. New, you're looking at $170/pair. I'd buy both pairs, and use 3 identical speakers across the front. Then again, I'm not a huge Klipsch fan.


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

it would be ok to use a p162 bookshelf for the center channel?


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

gdstupak said:


> My front 3 speakers are pushed by an ATI AT1506 amp (6 amps bridged into 3 channels, can't remember exactly but it's somewhere around 300amps/ch).
> The main L/R speakers (JBL S312 II's) are eq'ed down to 45ish-hz.
> The center (JBL Studio center) has crossover at 120hz. It plays confidently down to 60hz but below 120hz it sounds kinda boxy because it sits atop the tv and my eq doesn't adjust below 150hz for it.
> The surrounds (JBL 6" in ceiling speakers, powered by the Onkyo AVR) sound best with crossover at 100hz, again they will play much lower but sound a bit boxy.
> Subwoofers: 1 HSU VTF-2. And 1 DIY 15"er that is tuned for accurate reproduction, not boom-boom. They are eq'ed from 45ish-hz and lower.



A $1000+ dedicated 6 channel power amplifier and unusually high cross over for all but the mains, that explains it. I envy that kind of power sir.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Not only would it be ok, it would be preferable. 3 identical speakers is almost always the best way to go because you limit different frequency reproduction across your front stage.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

mandtra said:


> it would be ok to use a p162 bookshelf for the center channel?


The most important channel, all dialog comes through it. No, I dont recommend it.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

gdstupak said:


> -The center (JBL Studio center) has crossover at 120hz. It plays confidently down to 60hz but below 120hz it sounds kinda boxy because it sits atop the tv and my eq doesn't adjust below 150hz for it.


I used to use this for my center channel w. a similar set (large CRT Rearpro). I found that tilting the speaker down towards my ears helped a lot. Rubber Door wedges, foam, and old socks work great.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

eugovector said:


> Not only would it be ok, it would be preferable. 3 identical speakers is almost always the best way to go because you limit different frequency reproduction across your front stage.


Unless you have a center that is tonally balanced to the fronts. In this case, either the 250 or 350 would offer the same freq AND give a better performance than a 162.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

TypeA said:


> A $1000+ dedicated 6 channel power amplifier and unusually high cross over for all but the mains, that explains it. I envy that kind of power sir.


Like mandtra I could not afford a good system all at once, this took awhile to put together. Next steps are a matching center (or close to matching center speaker, possibly an S310 II) and better JBL surround speakers.
Be patient mandtra.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

eugovector said:


> I used to use this for my center channel w. a similar set (large CRT Rearpro). I found that tilting the speaker down towards my ears helped a lot. Rubber Door wedges, foam, and old socks work great.


Thanks.
Boy, there's alot going on in here today.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

TypeA said:


> Unless you have a center that is tonally balanced to the fronts. In this case, either the 250 or 350 would offer the same freq AND give a better performance than a 162.


Don't get me wrong, I use a matching "center" because it's impractical for me to run 3 tower style speakers across the front (JBL S310-ii with S-38ii). That being say, in my experience "tonally balanced" means "close, but not quite". If you want better performance, get 3 better performing speakers. If I could run 3 identical speakers, I would (anyone have a pair of S38ii they want to let go on the cheap?).


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

So ,are the Infinity p162's / primus series a good way to go for the whole setup? or should i still try to go better? I have researched them and the reviews are very good and they sound very good to me.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

TypeA said:


> The most important channel, all dialog comes through it. No, I dont recommend it.


The P162 has a 6-inch driver rated down to 49hz at +/- 3db. It would be a fine center speaker, you just need to keep it upright as opposed to laying on it's side to maintain the high-frequency dispersion qualities.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

mandtra said:


> So ,are the Infinity p162's / primus series a good way to go for the whole setup? or should i still try to go better? I have researched them and the reviews are very good and they sound very good to me.


The Primus series is one of the best-rated budget systems out there. For the money, you will be hard pressed to do better. For more money, that's another story.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

eugovector said:


> The P162 has a 6-inch driver rated down to 49hz at +/- 3db. It would be a fine center speaker, you just need to keep it upright as opposed to laying on it's side to maintain the high-frequency dispersion qualities.


He has a sub. The 250 is a three way with twin 5 1/4 that goes to 80hz, it will beat a two way like the 162 that will be crossed over at 80hz or higher anyway. I suppose he could cross over lower, would you take that over a three way center channel if it was in your budget?


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

eugovector said:


> The P162 has a 6-inch driver rated down to 49hz at +/- 3db. It would be a fine center speaker, you just need to keep it upright as opposed to laying on it's side to maintain the high-frequency dispersion qualities.


I agree.
And if you bought 2pr of these, you could use 2 speakers side by side as the center which would give you a wider center sound dispersion.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

A 3-way design is not inherently better than a 2-way design, but 3 identical speakers across the front is inherently better than mismatched speakers even if they are from the same manufacturer/series. If you're not happy with the quality of the P162 (which I think you will be), you can look at better speakers, but if you can do 3-identical across the front, you should.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

TypeA said:


> He has a sub. The 250 is a three way with twin 5 1/4 that goes to 80hz, it will beat a two way like the 162 that will be crossed over at 80hz or higher anyway. I suppose he could cross over lower, would you take that over a three way center channel if it was in your budget?


And I betcha $100 this center speaker does not sound the same as the main speakers, even though they're matched.
I would rather have identical speakers, identical sound.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

Mandtra,

Go for it! Klipsch kg 3.5 for $100.00 (L&R), Klipsch Synergy C-2 for $75.00, Klipsch B-2 for 100.00 (rears), Klipsch sub -10 for $100.00 would be quite impressive, and all for $375. Plenty of room to upgrade if you want. What is you AVR? Klipsch sound good w/ Denon. Stay away from Yamaha is what I read.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Look at what the pro mixers do:
http://www.radio.uqam.ca/ambisonic/images/hexa_studio.jpg
http://ct.kaist.ac.kr/en/html/images/equ_pic04.gif
http://www.music4studios.com/images/studios/studio2-2.jpg
http://www.bismeauxstudio.com/images/b_room_1.gif
http://www.richardcleaver.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/mixing_room.jpg

Once again, this is coming from someone with a mismatched front/center.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

gdstupak said:


> And I betcha $100 this center speaker does not sound the same as the main speakers, even though they're matched.
> I would rather have identical speakers, identical sound.


News to me. I assumed a wider sound stage and horizontal orientation of a center channel would beat any sound differences between a 250 and 162. Towers, obviously, are a different story.


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

eugovector said:


> Look at what the pro mixers do:
> http://www.radio.uqam.ca/ambisonic/images/hexa_studio.jpg
> http://ct.kaist.ac.kr/en/html/images/equ_pic04.gif
> http://www.music4studios.com/images/studios/studio2-2.jpg
> ...


Very interesting sir. Thanks, I learned something new  I wrongly assumed the performance of a design-dedicated center, especially with more drivers, would off-set the performance of all the same bookshelf speakers.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

Eugovector,

You forgot this one! 
http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?terid=4679&infid=4621
LOL


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

God that makes me wish I could fit another $177.00 Infinity 362 tower for my center channel. I can afford it, just cant fit it. :crying:


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

How to determine if you should go with a better speaker: If you can afford it, yes.
How to determine if something is better than another: retail price (yes, there is more to it than price, but this is a good basic to go by).

What I tell my friends that don't know anything about audio/video: you get what you pay for. This isn't like other stuff you buy, there can be a plain white t-shirt selling for $3, slap a Nike logo on that same shirt and it sells for $20. 
This is not how electronics work (except for a few cases such as Bose, there, you are paying for the Bose name, stay away). If speaker "A" has a retail of $100, and speaker "B" has a retail of $175, 99% of the time the higher priced speaker "B" is higher quality. But just because speaker "B" is higher quality doesn't mean that you will like the sound of it better than the cheaper speaker. This is why you need to demo electronics personally. But if you can't listen to them, then I would go with the higher priced item.

The Infinity P 162's retailed for a little under $300, for a step up in performance you would probably need to look at speakers that retail over $350. If you can find used speakers that retailed for $350-$400 that you can afford, then go for the upgrade.

Just my $.02.


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

my AV is a Onkyo 807


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

HTR's subjective reviews have their place, but I put more credence in something with objective results. Though there aren't the same speaker, they'll give you an idea of how the Primus series has performed over time and across the line: 
http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcomponents/404infinity/
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/605infinity/

In HTR's defense, measurements are hard to do without a proper lab, and the manufacturers specs should be trusted for reputable brands.

I would caution using retail price as a differentiator. By that logic, a $200k speaker pair should rub your feet and make you breakfast. Also, as numerous speaker shootouts show, there is great quality variance even among speakers @ the same relative pricepoint: http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/budget-bookshelf-shootout-2009

The JBL studio series, for instance, was performing far above it's retail class when they were introduced. I trust my ears, specs, review, and price, in that order.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

mandtra said:


> my AV is a Onkyo 807


Yes, you have a great AVR.
So you should have a great speaker. JBL L820, buy 2 now ($500) and the rest later.


eugovector: I like HTR because they say good things about JBL. And I tried to make a point that retail price is a good factor for quality if you can't do much other research, but you are right that's not all you should go by, it's a good starting point.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

TypeA said:


> What amplification are you using for your speakers?


Just looked up my ATI's power when bridged: 450 mutha luvin watts/ch. And that's true quality watts, not Pioneer fake watts.

http://www.wwsp.com/ati/hometheatermagazine.htm


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

gdstupak said:


> Just looked up my ATI's power when bridged: 450 mutha luvin watts/ch. And that's true quality watts, not Pioneer fake watts.
> 
> http://www.wwsp.com/ati/hometheatermagazine.htm


Way ahead of ya, page six:


TypeA said:


> A $1000+ dedicated 6 channel power amplifier


Was all I needed to see. Im sure its impressive


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

gdstupak said:


> eugovector: I like HTR because they say good things about JBL.


Well, as one JBL-advocate to another, I like my mom because she says good things about me, but I wouldn't trust her to be a good critic of my faults 

Also, FYI for the thread, JBL and Infinity are led by the same parent company.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

My ATI amp, you know how I knew it was better than the rest: the retail price was expensive.....bada boom!!....just kidding!!!


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

eugovector said:


> Also, FYI for the thread, JBL and Infinity are led by the same parent company.


I forgot about that.
Ok, so if he doesn't get the JBL L820's (which are more expensive so they have to be better), then I whole-heartedly approve of the Infinity's (even though I've never heard them, but they are part of JBL so they're good).


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

My $0.03 cents....

If you can have three similar speakers in the front.... go ahead (to bad I can't, see Why...) 
*Spoiler* 








If you're okay buying piece by piece, you'll get a better system.

I started with Infinity (TSS 750), I replaced them with Polk M10 because I wanted to be able to crossover @ 80Hz instead of 120Hz, then I got a good deal on my JBL stadium so I replaced the Polk's and bought JBL S36II and JBL S CenterII to try to tonal match all speakers (all are 3 ways)... I'm happy with the results.

About crossover... You can do what I did, I used REW (you can download free here at the forum), then compare the response and decide which one sounds better.

My fronts can play down to 35Hz, but sound better if crossed over @ 80Hz instead of 40Hz, I'm powering them with a pro-amp (Samson Servo 600)... 

P.S: JBL S38II... silver or gold???


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

The ii revision has silver drivers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

salvasol said:


> My $0.03 cents....
> 
> If you can have three similar speakers in the front.... go ahead (to bad I can't, see Why...)
> *Spoiler*
> ...


so the JBL S38II Speakers are really good? I just found a pair brand new for $ 175.00

I'm really surprised how much i have found locally for sale, only problem is that i have found so much, I cant decide what to buy


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

If you can stomach the size (these aren't "bookshelf" speakers) they are fantastic and you won't find a better performer new for $175 or even twice that price. The trick will be finding a matching center. Ideally, a 3rd 38ii would be the choice, but they are hard to come by. You can find S-Center II online pretty much any day of the week, but they weren't the best match for me when I had that setup.

If the size works, I'd buy them in a heartbeat, find the cheapest S-Center II to get you buy, and then keep your eyes open for a pair of S38II in black, keep one, and send me the other


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

eugovector said:


> If you can stomach the size (these aren't "bookshelf" speakers) they are fantastic and you won't find a better performer new for $175 or even twice that price. The trick will be finding a matching center. Ideally, a 3rd 38ii would be the choice, but they are hard to come by. You can find S-Center II online pretty much any day of the week, but they weren't the best match for me when I had that setup.
> 
> If the size works, I'd buy them in a heartbeat, find the cheapest S-Center II to get you buy, and then keep your eyes open for a pair of S38II in black, keep one, and send me the other


I wouldn't want to use them for the rears there too large, but you think they would sound good for the mains?? Will they sound small?
Let me ask it this way. Would i be better off with a lesser quality tower for mains , or will these blow away the lesser towers?

***BTW the JBL S38II are wood grain not black ****


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

I used them for mains for years, just be aware that you'll be hard pressed to find a sturdy stand that doesn't cost a fortune. I ended up using cinderblocks (which were cheap and worked great).

Yes, a HQ "bookshelf" > LQ Towers especially if you're using a sub.


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

Ok, hoping to wrap this up this weekend. If I could get some final input. 

Option,s - Polk monitor 70's , or Polk VM20's fronts , and matching center channel with either Infinity p162,s new , or Paradigm LCR-450 (used), or , JBL 38LL for rears new 

Whay do you think? I can do for $ 570.00 

P.S. the LCR-450 are at least 10 years old, will that make a difference?


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Wait, are you going all the same manufacture or mixing and matching?


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

i'm going to match the front 3 speakers Polk I think , , but was thinking of doing something different in the rears the p162's or the LCR-450's


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Being the 'Type A' personality that I am I made a big effort to stay all the same manufacture, rears and all. You know what I recommend as all the reviews Ive read say the same thing, 'few if any match the primus line (especially the 162) in value and performance.' That says a lot, the bookshelf class is one of the most competitive of the speaker classes. But, hey, Polk might be better for you. You also have good prices on used speakers. I dont have those options, Im stuck with the best price for 'new' in my recent upgrade to the primus line.


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

I really wanted to go the primus route , but the guy selling the p162's turned out to be a flake , and wont return my calls , and i cant find the p362's any where but fleabay for $ 275 plus shipping each . I agree the reviews are better on the Infinity's, but if you cant find them. I have found the p252's but i dont think they would sound as good. I dont really know what else to do considering my budget, and I dont really care for Klipsch. The reviews i have found on the Monitor 70 II and (Monitor series in general) have been pretty good. I can get the Monitor 70 LL 's for $ 354.00 shipped for the pair , cs2 center for $ 149.00 shipped , and a pair of Monitor 30's for 89.00 shipped


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

362's are 177 each new shipped at crutchfield (using a couple of coupons). theyre expecting them back in stock soon, might want to call and see exactly when. 162s are 85 each shipped using no coupons, they have hundreds in stock


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

wow I thought since the p362's were a discontinued item they would not be back in stock. I will call them. Where can i get the coupons at though ?


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Order them 1 at a time. In your first order, use the coupon code "3A865". You pay $199 for the speaker, but get emailed a $25 gift card for future purchases. In your second order, use that gift card to knock the price down that $25. Additionally, use the coupon code "3A825" to knock off $20 (on orders over $100, which it is).

These combined knocks off $45 from your second speaker, making your total, shipped (for both in different orders, of course), $355, or about $177.50 each. Crutchfield is doing free shipping right now, so this is a great deal if you don't have access to a Fry's. 

Free shipping may or may not be available now, so you have to ask....


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

i checked with frys and they have a pair of display speakers but the cone centers are pressed in by kids

for $ 150 each plus tax


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

mandtra said:


> i checked with frys and they have a pair of display speakers but the cone centers are pressed in by kids
> 
> for $ 150 each plus tax


Maybe they will discount them even more due to the fact that they are pushed in, that can sometimes be a simple fix, my buddy's son pushed mine in years ago and i took the vacume cleaner and slowly worked it back out.:T


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I remember at University when in the First Semester, I purchased a pair of Paradigm Monitor 7's that suffered the same fate when I was living in my Fraternity House. As Stereophile was all I read back then, I immediately took off the Grills to maximize the SQ upon receiving them.

By the 2nd Band Party, one of my Speakers had its Dome Tweeter pushed in. Paradigm took mercy on me and sent me a free Tweeter gratis provided I replaced the Grills back on the Speaker. 

With Paradigm, the Rep told me they "voiced" the Speaker with the Grills on and Measured them this way as well. Thanks to that and keeping a better eye on my Room during Events led to no more further instances during the Fraternity mandated 1 Year of living in the House and throughout School.

I really think the Plastic Diffusors Speaker Makers place over many Speakers is a result of Children and the childish. You gotta love Focal's Inverted Tweeter, which not only is one of the finest available, is inverted by Design. Moreover, most really High End Speakers do not have Plastic Diffusors over the Tweeter and many Tweakers remove these Diffusors.

Hopefully, the Vacuum trick will work like a charm. Provided there is a 30 Day Return Policy and the pushed in Tweeter is displayed on the Receipt, it might be worth a try, Also, during this Return Window, you could try to sweet talk the Manufacturer into providing you with a new Tweeter gratis.
Cheers,
JJ


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I remember with my first set of Monitor 3's i blew a tweeter well beyond warranty and they replaced it for free, they seem to have very good customer relations.:T Also more recently on my Monitor 11's i noticed that there was a thin spot in one of the surrounds of the bass driver and low and behold i've got a new one no questions asked.:T


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

well i spent the day doing demos . and i'm glad i did . I found out I do not like Klipsch at all . too harsh. the polks I was looking at (Monitors) were very flat sounding.( no life at all) The Infinity primus p362's were great sounding,the kef were also very nice, don't laugh but i liked the Boston cs226 best . even a little better than the p162's . So i went for the Boston setup , cs262 mains cs26 rears and cs250 center . what do you guys think of the boston cs series?


***p.s. they refused to knock anything off the p162's except tax******* i said no , called crutchfield but they said end of october for the 162,s to restock****


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I've always heard that Boston makes great speakers but have never experianced them for myself. With that said, i think that if you like the way they sound then your ears are the ones that matter. I'm glad to hear that you found a speaker in your range and that make you happy which is what counts most to me.:T


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## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Congrats, glad you had the opportunity to audition and found what you like. And I totally agree with bambino, it doesnt really matter what we think, what matters is that its what YOU like


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

Thanks for all the help to everyone. I really did like the Infinity's They were a very close second to the Boston ac' and cheaper as well. but i didnt want to wait for a month for the infinitys to go back in stock


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## kee1968 (Sep 20, 2010)

mandtra said:


> well i spent the day doing demos . and i'm glad i did . I found out I do not like Klipsch at all . too harsh. the polks I was looking at (Monitors) were very flat sounding.( no life at all) The Infinity primus p362's were great sounding,the kef were also very nice, don't laugh but i liked the Boston cs226 best . even a little better than the p162's . So i went for the Boston setup , cs262 mains cs26 rears and cs250 center . what do you guys think of the boston cs series?
> 
> 
> ***p.s. they refused to knock anything off the p162's except tax******* i said no , called crutchfield but they said end of october for the 162,s to restock****


I know how budget controls our evey purchsse in todays economey but if you put it in a different perspective i.e. every time you turn on your HT or CD,SACD or even a radio and regret buying because it fit your budgit tou will not only hate yourself or cough up the cash latter. Do what is best for you but speaker choise makes the whole system work or fail. I don't know what Klipsch you listened to but I own 9 different types and wouldn't tradw for any other in that price range.My system is mixed but the KLF-30's were taged as the best Rock n Role speaker ever made. Ths KLF-20's are a step gown in price but also an excellent one. Some of the newer Reference series do not use the 2-3 horns anymore and I agree sound a little hot or brash for my taste. You don't have to buy new if you know what you want. G:To to the products web page and find their Garage sale and then to products archive to get the specs and compare. Good hunting.:T:reading:


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, here's an update. after trying the Bostons for a few weeks i have decided to return them . I'm not really happy with them , they kinda sound cheap , they distort easily at higher volumes.I think i like the Polk monitor 60 series better than the Bostons , buy I have increased my budget and purchased the INFINITY Classia series c336 towers , cc225 center and 2 sets of p162 bookshelfs.
for the price i found them new i couldn't say no $ 650 .00 plus shipping


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

mandtra said:


> Well, here's an update. after trying the Bostons for a few weeks i have decided to return them . I'm not really happy with them , they kinda sound cheap , they distort easily at higher volumes.I think i like the Polk monitor 60 series better than the Bostons , buy I have increased my budget and purchased the INFINITY Classia series c336 towers , cc225 center and 2 sets of p162 bookshelfs.
> for the price i found them new i couldn't say no $ 650 .00 plus shipping


Congratulations. I hope that they meet your criteria and provide many years of sonic bliss. Infinity makes excellent Speakers.
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

bambino said:


> I've always heard that Boston makes great speakers but have never experianced them for myself. With that said, i think that if you like the way they sound then your ears are the ones that matter. I'm glad to hear that you found a speaker in your range and that make you happy which is what counts most to me.:T


Funny how two best buy type brands (Boston and Infinity) are probably the best bang-for-buck speakers when it comes to brick and mortar.


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## kenwoodfanboy (Oct 22, 2010)

If it were me i would go look as some speakers in your price range and compare them to each other. Thant way you get an idea of how they sound. Good luck with your selection.:wave:


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Glad you found a set that your ears like thats great news, too bad for the Bostons.:T


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## kenwoodfanboy (Oct 22, 2010)

sorry for the last post i never read the all the comments. Glad your speakers are fitting the bill for you:R


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

You have all been really helpful, I guess if i could pass along one bit of wisdom to another in my shoes , it would be to listen more to what you guys suggest , and you will save a lot of time. And that just because speaker x sounds good in the store doesn't mean they will sound good in (your ) room , which is what happened in my case with the Bostons. The higher end Infinity's really are the type of sound I personally like best right now


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

mandtra said:


> Well, here's an update. after trying the Bostons for a few weeks i have decided to return them . I'm not really happy with them , they kinda sound cheap , they distort easily at higher volumes.I think i like the Polk monitor 60 series better than the Bostons , buy I have increased my budget and purchased the INFINITY Classia series c336 towers , cc225 center and 2 sets of p162 bookshelfs.


 Those MMD drivers are true diamons in the rough. My best pair of speakers uses the MMD drivers from a pair of Primus 360s. 

If you ever get into modding: Those are good speakers to rebrace and replace the crossovers on because those drivers are so good (in the case of mine, the tweeter was replaced with a ribbon, and a JL W7 was added for LF)


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm looking for another sub and wanted to get some feedback please. which of these three would do the best job ? Please note the Infinity and JBL are heavily discounted and on CLOSEOUT
Infinity PS212 @ $218.00 
JBL ES150p @ $232.00 
Velodyne VDR10 @ $ 220.00


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

JerryLove said:


> Those MMD drivers are true diamons in the rough. My best pair of speakers uses the MMD drivers from a pair of Primus 360s.
> 
> If you ever get into modding: Those are good speakers to rebrace and replace the crossovers on because those drivers are so good (in the case of mine, the tweeter was replaced with a ribbon, and a JL W7 was added for LF)


QFT

Infinity makes some of the better drivers in the world and then proceeds to waste them with lazy crossovers.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

I love my JBL tower speakers and the 12" woofers in them sound great, but have always heard that JBL Subs are not great. Never heard any myself.

Several years ago I had a 10" Infinity sub that played very loud but not low, can't remember the model.

Love my HSU sub. Low, loud, and accurate.


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## smurphy522 (Sep 21, 2010)

JoeESP9 said:


> Have you tried going out and actually listening to some speakers? That's how people usually buy speakers. Asking someone else how a speaker sounds is like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer and asking a stranger how it feels.


Or like asking what color to paint my family room with a $200 budget.


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