# SVS Ultra crossover upgrading DIY



## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

My uncle wants me to upgrade the crossover within the SVS Ultra. anybody have any experience of modifying crossovers? I had taken a photo of the crossover board when I swapped my warrantied woofer out and he claims the caps are about 20 cents and the inductors are iron core and I could really benefit from installing air core inductors and audiophile grade caps and said I will see a 200-300% improvement with the sound of the speakers from doing this.

...at the cost of voiding warranty obviously.

Anyone here have experience with this and/or want to comment?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

If "upgrading" your crossovers would really make any difference dont you think SVS would have done so already in the initial design? Were not talking about a fly by night company trying to cut corners, SVS would not skimp on that area.
I disagree with your uncle.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> If "upgrading" your crossovers would really make any difference dont you think SVS would have done so already in the initial design? Were not talking about a fly by night company trying to cut corners, SVS would not skimp on that area.
> I disagree with your uncle.


Well that was my thoughts too... were not talking some 200 dollar speakers. There is a reason they are 2k. obviously there is a markup, overheads, shipping costs etc. In the end they probably are built from about 600 bucks worth of parts but then again so is a 500 dollar pair of speakers too... same overheads, profits etc.

I'm not saying they cut corners at all, maybe he is. However he did build his own crossover network for his Apogee Duetta II signature speakers and spent 3k on the pair doing so. However only he can tell you the gains it made since I was not there to witness it.

He said for about $300 he could upgrade my crossovers in my front 3.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

A 200-300% improvement? Really? Your uncles implication suggests SVS designed a mediocre speaker to save a few bucks on the crossover of their premier speaker line. I really doubt that myself.

I'm with Tony - this is just a very bad idea, one that should be dismissed before it goes too much further and a costly mistake is made.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Don't be scared.

I didn't say I was going to just inquired for peoples thoughts. How about some kinda positive thought.

I've inquired into SVS about their design and their thoughts of the solid core inductors vs. air core etc. Just curious to see what they say


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

What leads you to believe I'm afraid of something? I'm not scared by what you're considering, but honestly there's nothing positive to say about the idea. It's a bad one, plain and simple. If you're merely looking for someone to endorse this mistake by saying "sure, go ahead!" then I'm not that person. I suspect you won't find anyone else who will encourage you to proceed. You're free to do whatever you'd like, of course, but it's not realistic to assume many (any?) others will concur with what you're contemplating.


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## morca (Aug 26, 2011)

I would test is.
They save much money on the new amp,and its amp if you look at the old amp.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

morca said:


> I would test is.
> They save much money on the new amp,and its amp if you look at the old amp.


???


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Yea, I had the same reaction. Being from the Netherlands means English is not his primary language though, so I think his intent was lost when translated. Best I can tell is he's suggesting that somehow a picture of the old amp is going to benefit the OP when he modifies the new one, so why not try it. Regardless of the language used, it still comes off sounding like a bad idea.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Well it's not trolling. After looking it over they do in fact have ONE air inductor and it's for the tweeter only. They use an air inductor and a hingtat mkt 9.1uf cap w/ a Q4 Audyn cap in parallel w/ that hingtat for the tweeter. Parts express sells this cap it's this one: http://www.parts-express.com/audyn-...lypropylene-foil-crossover-capacitor--027-114

there is another tiny cap which is made by BP which is this one: http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-150uF-Non-Polarized-Capacitor/dp/B0002KR4D4

and then two big ones one a 150uf and another a 170uf and my uncle says those are very big for a crossover but they are also made by hingtat. My findings of hingtat is this site: http://www.hingtat.cn/en/index.html

which looks like they make electronics which could be the manufacture of their crossover. I also know by warranty of my blown 8" woofer they charge me $60 for a woofer.

The cement resisters are all 20w which is a good thing they are robust and most are 20w 5RJ which are a $2 part and there are 7 of them and then you have the iron core inductors which are 5 of them total.

All in all I'd say the crossover complete assembly on a cost standpoint of manufacturing is probably less than $30 maybe even less than 20 or even 15 at their cost. I think for SVS parts/woofers/mdf/etc is probably around 200 bucks total for the speaker and of course you have marketing/overheads/shipping/warranties etc that drive the price up and don't forget profits. ALL companies will have these markups so I'm not disputing this to be bad at all. 

Am I saying this is bad?... no... am I a troll... NO. So do not accuse me of one. I am just learning and investigating. I really love the sound of my Ultras. Can installing $400 worth of crossover parts improve performance??? well... thats what I wanna find out.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Talley, I'm just curious what improvements you'll be looking for.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> Talley, I'm just curious what improvements you'll be looking for.


I have no idea. It's very intriguing though. I know I spout "my uncle" alot but he always says improve every single aspect that you can possibly improve. Don't just install better speaker cables... cryo them, change the terminals out to better ones, put better receptacles, better isolation, better speaker placement, better acoustics in the room...

he says you must improve everything and leave nothing untouched. Obviously my ears cannot improve lol but you get the point. Why spend 50k on a system and install it in a bare walled room is his point. Do everything. The purpose of your room is not comfort or to look cool... it's to be functional put stuff where it needs to be and work around it. if it means having a giant bass trap in the middle of the screen well then... hmm... ok maybe thats a bit far but hopefully you get the point.

So... why have a weak link?

His words to me was... spend $600 and lets get the crossovers improved and you'll turn your ultra system into a speaker setup that would compete against a 20,000 speaker system (maybe a bit exaggeration).

I came here seeking advice as I always try to do sanity checks and immediately got scolded and was told SVS would never do cheap... and now we know they have. I always try to remain open (which is why I seek other advice other then my uncle) and I also try to remain economical as much as I can too.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Maybe this is another reason the B&W 802 series costs alot. Look at 2:10 at their crossover design... all audiophile grade components


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## JimShaw (Apr 30, 2012)

Talley

I am not an expert in anything electrical. I have not a clue was to what you will be doing if you do it but I am interested to see what happens if you do an upgrade.

I own a SVS PB13-Ultra


JimShaw


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I can certainly get behind the concept of improve everything. I would certainly never put a pro-charger on my small block without studding my main caps, or splaying them. 
I kinda expected your answer to be something like, it will improve cohesion between drivers, or allow more power handling or something similar. At first glance it just seems like without a specific target, 600 bucks might be better spent on a 2nd sub that you have some expectations for. I'm not saying the "upgrade" won't provide great results because I just don't know. It seems SVS would have calculated every component to the Nth degree for the intended purpose and cabinet, and overall design. Somewhere in my mind it seems similar to putting 1"fuel line on your car just because it's bigger, but won't do a thing. I can't wait to have a dedicated room someday. Then I can make my wife wonder why the I put baskets on the ceiling.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> I can certainly get behind the concept of improve everything. I would certainly never put a pro-charger on my small block without studding my main caps, or splaying them.
> I kinda expected your answer to be something like, it will improve cohesion between drivers, or allow more power handling or something similar. At first glance it just seems like without a specific target, 600 bucks might be better spent on a 2nd sub that you have some expectations for. I'm not saying the "upgrade" won't provide great results because I just don't know. It seems SVS would have calculated every component to the Nth degree for the intended purpose and cabinet, and overall design. Somewhere in my mind it seems similar to putting 1"fuel line on your car just because it's bigger, but won't do a thing. I can't wait to have a dedicated room someday. Then I can make my wife wonder why the I put baskets on the ceiling.



Well... in that case. This could be described as going from 87 octane to 100 octane. 

I'm in the working to do everything. Money spent toward 2nd sub... it's coming too. I'm convincing myself now to move to the XMC-1 and XPR-5 for my pre/pro and amp. For whatever reason I just want to try them. All of my speaker cable and all of the power feeders to my outlet box will be removed and get cryo'd but I will do the cry once I get my isolation transformer as I want to cryo it too.

I'm also fixing to start treating my room acoustically and suspect that will be a 6 month process to work out the kinks and get it close.

In the end... I'll do as much as I can for the room I have. The speakers I like and just want to improve where they can be improved.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Talley, my speakers cost $7000 new back in 1985 this is what the crossovers look like inside.









Not pretty by any means however they sound fantastic! Dont go by what you see. Go by what you hear.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

^^^ +1
My Revels were over $20k in 2001. I replaced a failed crossover in '06 and it forever changed my view of expensive speaker cable. Even with all the research, science, and technology that went into the design, they used what looks like plain 12AWG stranded copper.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

BlueRockinLou said:


> ^^^ +1
> My Revels were over $20k in 2001. I replaced a failed crossover in '06 and it forever changed my view of expensive speaker cable. Even with all the research, science, and technology that went into the design, they used what looks like plain 12AWG stranded copper.



This is the case for any internal wiring. Your less suspectable to cross talk when you are mainly dealing with 2 or 3 way circuits (crossovers). SVS did a good job by placing the tweeter circuit on one corner and on the diagonal the woofer circuit the midways got the other diagonal corners. However outside the speaker your dealing with all sorts of issues when ran near other lines. But I agree... keep the cable simple for best sound. 

Although I would of preferred twisted strands to eliminate inductance this may be something I do as I'll be replacing the internal wiring inside the Ultras.

OH... and the best wire is a bare uninsulated copper wire. The minute you start adding insulation you add dielectric which pushes capacitance into the cable which leads to inductance BUT you have to have insulation to prevent shorting so it's a catch 22. Definately stay way from large bundled power cords/speaker cables. After I cryo my speaker cables I'll remove the outer jacket and just run twisted wires as that will be all thats needed.... another reason why I ran ENT in the walls was to help strip away the outer PVC jacket which is poor dielectric. Any polyolefin insulated wire is better than PVC material.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Talley said:


> This is the case for any internal wiring. Your less suspectable to cross talk when you are mainly dealing with 2 or 3 way circuits (crossovers).


I suppose all but the most esoteric speaker designs might use "plain" internal wiring. I can't be certain, because I've only seen one. But I have heard of both speakers and electronics (mostly amps), which are internally wired with signature cables like Van den Hul, Siltech, and others. None that I know of claimed to improve crosstalk, so I suppose your generalization can be extrapolated into the realm of fact. Exactly what type of crosstalk are we talking about? Between inductors themselves, between inductors and wiring, or between signals flowing within the wiring?



Talley said:


> OH... and the best wire is a bare uninsulated copper wire. The minute you start adding insulation you add dielectric which pushes capacitance into the cable which leads to inductance.


One of the most parroted objections for poor dielectric material is that it initially stores signal energy only to release it at a later time, causing smearing of fine detail. Assuming such an effect were audible, both the upstream equipment and the playback environment would need to be highly resolving. So even if you make the changes, how do you propose to discern any possible differences given that your room is not yet treated? And how would you figure out if your changes were "better" than a stock sub?



Talley said:


> Definately stay way from large bundled power cords/speaker cables.


Why do you (or your uncle) promote that belief? Power cords have different requirements than speaker cable. Shielding alone can add bulk to a power cable. 



Talley said:


> Any polyolefin insulated wire is better than PVC material.


Different, maybe. Better? How?


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Several posts have been removed and this thread will be watched carefully. Everyone should read the furum rules very carefully. We are not here to accuse manufacturers of lying in their literature and are not here to simply criticize others. One can state facts without condescending and without bashing.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

With respect to the topic of the thread, I would expect modest, if any audible improvements.

Manufacturers nearly always look to ways to cut corners. Producing a high value product requires that the corners that make the least difference be cut as much as possible. The difference in cost of crossover parts compared to the difference in sound is one place where many manufacturers choose to cut costs. Generally, IME, it is a reasonable trade-off. I might be concerned in a speaker much more expensive, but in this price range, driver selection and matching are far more significant.

I have to question the assumptions that are going into this project. Lots of it sounds like hype from manufacturers rather than proven electrical properties.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

lcaillo said:


> With respect to the topic of the thread, I would expect modest, if any audible improvements.
> 
> Manufacturers nearly always look to ways to cut corners. Producing a high value product requires that the corners that make the least difference be cut as much as possible. The difference in cost of crossover parts compared to the difference in sound is one place where many manufacturers choose to cut costs. Generally, IME, it is a reasonable trade-off. I might be concerned in a speaker much more expensive, but in this price range, driver selection and matching are far more significant.
> 
> I have to question the assumptions that are going into this project. Lots of it sounds like hype from manufacturers rather than proven electrical properties.



Well so the other thing my uncle did say was the capacitors were large and that the resisters were heavy duty rated with the specs they offered.

He was actually quite stunned at the robust parts and mentinoed that by going to audiophile grade parts would cost an arm and a leg to do to get the same ratings.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Just adding my 2cents worth.


Having done audio and digital engineering and design work professionally, it can be very difficult to identify parts by sight. It is true that specialty parts, ie expensive caps for audio upgrade for instance, are usually better identified, but not always. Overseas sources are notoriously hard to ID, even caps made by bigger-name sources (Sprague, Vishay) are not always easy to ID.
Components with excellent specs and tight tolerances are not necessarily expensive. They are usually not the cheapest, but may run $5 each instead of $1 each (just an example), and properly specified, perhaps even hand-picked, can yield excellent performance. The way SVS's speakers sound and compare in their market segments (I have heard the Ultras and Primes), I would assess that they do not skimp on crossover parts. Specialty components might provide a tiny improvement, perhaps an audible change, but I doubt it would be big.
Their crossover design for the Ultra is actually quite complex, with two tweeter to mid crossover frequencies. It is well thought out, anything but cheap or simplistic (not saying you called it that).
They are yours to play with.
It does not sound like you are slamming SVS, but you are implying they left a lot of room for improvement, which I doubt.
My opinion: I am far more interested in your opinion than your uncle's, all due respect. He is welcome to get is own ID and talk to us directly.:bigsmile:


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

AudiocRaver said:


> Just adding my 2cents worth.
> 
> 
> Having done audio and digital engineering and design work professionally, it can be very difficult to identify parts by sight. It is true that specialty parts, ie expensive caps for audio upgrade for instance, are usually better identified, but not always. Overseas sources are notoriously hard to ID, even caps made by bigger-name sources (Sprague, Vishay) are not always easy to ID.
> ...


I wish my uncle would but he has zero interest. Outside his busy work schedule he spends all his time with his hi-fi and/or his race cars to even bother with the online forums.

He will agree with you. The crossover design is very complex and he has never seen anything as complex as the Ultra towers crossover design before. He also says very big capacitors and resistors too. Maybe the design while not using "eye candy" parts is very robustly designed and built and we all know that design cost more than parts.

just remember.... engineers never ever make mistakes.... they make revisions


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

And to clarify.

I love my SVS Ultras! They are very good and best I have ever owned to date.

..still doesn't mean I want to tweak/learn every aspect there is of audio equipment.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

So how do you plan to measure and match the components you replace with identical values in "higher quality" parts? What type of equipment do you have and what are characteristics are you going to measure? Or do you plan to just assume the marked values are correct, tolerances are of minimal significance, and that the only values that matter are the labelled values?

Having undertaken this kind of project before, and having worked with parts for decades, I have to say that the likilihood of learning much without some test equipment is not very high.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

lcaillo said:


> So how do you plan to measure and match the components you replace with identical values in "higher quality" parts? What type of equipment do you have and what are characteristics are you going to measure? Or do you plan to just assume the marked values are correct, tolerances are of minimal significance, and that the only values that matter are the labelled values?
> 
> Having undertaken this kind of project before, and having worked with parts for decades, I have to say that the likilihood of learning much without some test equipment is not very high.



My uncle wanted schematics first. He would also be the one spec'ing the parts since he is more knowledgeable than I am to the specific parts on what to use.... But I've also decided not to based on SVS discussion. We can however keep the discussion going.

He does own some very elaborate testing equipment. LCR meter, impedance analyzer but owns more tube testers then I would know what to do with. Lab grade tube testers that cost $5k.

Being an electrician anything else we would need I would just rent from our company that rents and also does all of our annual certifications on our communicators and process meters.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

In my view, the only way to make a comparison to see if the components sound different is to carefully match the parameters of each and both listen and measure the frequency response of each crossover section while driving the speakers.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I believe it "may" improve performance as all manufacturers have to meet an internal price point. However, how much of a difference is a matter for speculation imo. No several hundred percent is not reasonable and may just be an off handed statement. 3% might make more sense unless your crossovers are old or breaking down. I have changed the crossovers in my older Klipsch with new Crites models and the differences were notable but the bigger difference was changing the tweeter to a newer version. I have replaced the components in a pre amp and amp with very good results. 
I would have to go with everyone here and say that the difference would probably not be worth the cost of parts and the time to do it


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Sounds like a lot of expenditure with little net gain, and a great opportunity to make the speakers worse. I wouldn't mess with the recipe.

You cannot look at passive prices and brand names and judge their audibility. This is done by measurement, then critical listening, making changes, more measuring/listening... wash, rinse, repeat. That is AFTER talented engineers design a rough outline for the crossover, via sophisticated software. This heavy lifting has already been done. It is very doubtful that you can improve on their considerable effort with just a few off the cuff passive changes. I have no doubt it can go quite wrong.

I know of at least three gentlemen that do this type of aftermarket crossover hot rod work. You will need to send them one of your Ultra's, so they can do what I described above. That is the only way I could ever recommend a project like this, and it is because they will do it correctly. And, still, your net gain would be a few percent, at best.


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## kingnoob (Mar 12, 2013)

Talley said:


> My uncle wants me to upgrade the crossover within the SVS Ultra. anybody have any experience of modifying crossovers? I had taken a photo of the crossover board when I swapped my warrantied woofer out and he claims the caps are about 20 cents and the inductors are iron core and I could really benefit from installing air core inductors and audiophile grade caps and said I will see a 200-300% improvement with the sound of the speakers from doing this.
> 
> ...at the cost of voiding warranty obviously.
> 
> Anyone here have experience with this and/or want to comment?


IF you dont like the speakers buy something else, I guess.
High ggrade speakers have good X overs such as these.:T. 
ONLY budget or, vintage speakers need XO upgrades.
I am happy with klpisch Icon for now. I got them 50% off blk friday , find something you like!
Sad Bestbuy discontinued them


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

theJman said:


> A 200-300% improvement? Really? Your uncles implication suggests SVS designed a mediocre speaker to save a few bucks on the crossover of their premier speaker line. I really doubt that myself.
> 
> I'm with Tony - this is just a very bad idea, one that should be dismissed before it goes too much further and a costly mistake is made.


That's a lot of improvement (200-300% :unbelievable: )! Coming from the Klipsch camp - we have a tendency to rework, modify, and upgrade our crossovers. I believe the team over at SVS is wonderful and knows what they are doing. However I'm also a firm believer that sacrifices are made in order to reach a certain profit point. It's like...you're not going to get a $2k SVS speaker that comes with Jupiter or Mundorf caps:spend: . 

I believe (if your uncle really knows what he's doing) could make *some* sonic improvements - but not 200-300%, and would those improvements be worth the money you spend on them. You are about to enter the dark side otherwise known as DIY - a lot of things can go wrong here, but sometimes - they can work out fine.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

prerich said:


> That's a lot of improvement (200-300% :unbelievable: )! Coming from the Klipsch camp - we have a tendency to rework, modify, and upgrade our crossovers. I believe the team over at SVS is wonderful and knows what they are doing. However I'm also a firm believer that sacrifices are made in order to reach a certain profit point. It's like...you're not going to get a $2k SVS speaker that comes with Jupiter or Mundorf caps:spend: .
> 
> I believe (if your uncle really knows what he's doing) could make *some* sonic improvements - but not 200-300%, and would those improvements be worth the money you spend on them. You are about to enter the dark side otherwise known as DIY - a lot of things can go wrong here, but sometimes - they can work out fine.


I'm leaving them as is for now. I'm working on the acoustics of my room which will yield 1,000% improvement for the $500 i'm investing.


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

lcaillo said:


> With respect to the topic of the thread, I would expect modest, if any audible improvements.
> 
> Manufacturers nearly always look to ways to cut corners. Producing a high value product requires that the corners that make the least difference be cut as much as possible. The difference in cost of crossover parts compared to the difference in sound is one place where many manufacturers choose to cut costs. Generally, IME, it is a reasonable trade-off. I might be concerned in a speaker much more expensive, but in this price range, driver selection and matching are far more significant.
> 
> I have to question the assumptions that are going into this project. Lots of it sounds like hype from manufacturers rather than proven electrical properties.


Excellent - I hadn't read all the way through the thread yet - but you've stated exactly what I believe to be true.


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

Talley said:


> I'm leaving them as is for now. I'm working on the acoustics of my room which will yield 1,000% improvement for the $500 i'm investing.


Oh yes!!!! Work on your room!!!!! I've owned speakers that sound great in one room - make some changes to the room - then they didn't sound as good. The room is the other component that you actually hear other than your speakers! 

(I'm actually glad that you didn't mess with the crossovers:sweat: - if anything - I would keep the stocks and if your uncle is up to snuff - have him build an upgraded pair from the schematics if they are available).


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

Talley said:


> Well so the other thing my uncle did say was the capacitors were large and that the resisters were heavy duty rated with the specs they offered.
> 
> He was actually quite stunned at the robust parts and mentinoed that by *going to audiophile grade parts would cost an arm and a leg* to do to get the same ratings.


Yes they would cost an arm, and a leg, and a few internal organs as well!!! :spend::spend:


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Talley said:


> I'm leaving them as is for now. I'm working on the acoustics of my room which will yield 1,000% improvement for the $500 i'm investing.


Great idea Talley and one that I need to take more seriously in my room.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Talley said:


> I'm leaving them as is for now. I'm working on the acoustics of my room which will yield 1,000% improvement for the $500 i'm investing.


Good move. I am about to invest the same amount into my room.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Good move, indeed! I invested too much in my room ( begin sounds of migrating toward DIY )

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## prerich (Mar 26, 2008)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Good move, indeed! I invested too much in my room ( begin sounds of migrating toward DIY )
> 
> Sent from my iPad using HTShack


Power, unlimited power







! 

Once more, the DIY will rule the galaxy. And, we shall have peace.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

tesseract said:


> You cannot look at passive prices and brand names and judge their audibility. This is done by measurement, then critical listening, making changes, more measuring/listening... wash, rinse, repeat. That is AFTER talented engineers design a rough outline for the crossover, via sophisticated software. This heavy lifting has already been done.


I believe you can extrapolate this design regimen to other electronics categories such as outboard DACs, phono preamps, etc. Whether aftermarket or OEM, this regimen is standard operating procedure for many high-end designers. This labor-of-love accounts for some of the higher cost of boutique gear. Some audio enthusiasts embrace the subtle results, while others dismiss them (topic for another thread). Why would you pay top dollar for a robust, well-executed design and then potentially ruin the results by second-guessing the inherent engineering?


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

BlueRockinLou said:


> I believe you can extrapolate this design regimen to other electronics categories such as outboard DACs, phono preamps, etc. Whether aftermarket or OEM, this regimen is standard operating procedure for many high-end designers. This labor-of-love accounts for some of the higher cost of boutique gear. Some audio enthusiasts embrace the subtle results, while others dismiss them (topic for another thread). Why would you pay top dollar for a robust, well-executed design and then potentially ruin the results by second-guessing the inherent engineering?


Right you are, Lou. In fact, I've read that third parties have put some of these "hot rodded" electronics on the test bench only to find the performance has been compromised.


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