# Relocate surrounds (no snickering)



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

I'm not really satisfied with surround-sound effects in my system. Using either REW-generated PEQ's or Dirac Live, the sound is somewhat distracting and unbalanced. When you look at my surround speaker placement you can see why, and will probably snicker! Okay, you can have your snickering, especially at my smallish 10x13 room, as long as you help me out (please?) :heehee: 

Back in my newbie days, I thought the surrounds had to be behind the LP, so that's what I tried for. But the LP was up against the wall, so I mounted them over the LP. I didn't want accidental brain surgery  so I bought the strongest mounts I could find and anchored them into the studs. Well wouldn't ya know, the studs weren't symmetrical relative to the side walls, so even with the LP dead center, the surrounds were offset. I aimed them downward to avoid ceiling-bounce, and toward the walls to help with diffusion.

Now I know that in-ceilings would be better, but I may switch to a bigger HT room soon, so don't want a lot of work/expense. I moved the LP away from the rear wall and laser-aligned the surrounds for symmetry with respect to the rear wall. That improved things, but not enough so I added an acoustic panel between them which solved some wandering sound-effects problems. I think there's still a lot of room for improvement, but my side-wall options are limited:
entry door to left of LP forces side-wall locations to be closer to the main speakers (almost middle of room)
closet to right of LP forces unsymmetrical placement of surrounds relative to LP (not straight across from each other)

Before I go through a lot of trouble (man are those mounts fastened down!), I'd like to know what makes sense. If my surrounds are alright where they are, should I configure them as "backs" instead? Why or why not? If you think they're better off on the side walls (yellow circle in pic below), should they be:

aimed toward each other or the toward the LP?
configured as "backs" instead of "surrounds"
mounted high or low

TIA :help:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

oops, forgot the pic


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hi Lou! I'm glad you brought that up. (I didn't want to lol). IMHO 5' is minimum for rear surrounds behind the LP. In front of the door looks like it would put it in front of the LP. That would be better than how they are but not quite right. The pic is what you'd strive for. In your smaller room, I'd try them at about 5' up. The idea is a sound bubble, so try to point them at your LP. Down and forward.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Put them in the two rear corners. That would be the best location in your situation.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I thought that too. I wonder about door clearance.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ok. Bad pic but...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

turn them on their side angled toward the listening position and place it above the door swing. It would be better than how it is now.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Better?


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> turn them on their side angled toward the listening position and place it above the door swing. It would be better than how it is now.


That sounds like the best option to me too. You need them as far away from each other and you as possible in that small of a room. Hats off to you for being willing to tweak. I think you'll be really happy with the change.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> _turn them on their side angled toward the listening position and place it above the door swing. It would be better than how it is now._


+1


_willis7469_,
you should buy my JBL Studio S312 tower's and install on ceiling as Atmos surrounds. Ha Ha.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

gdstupak said:


> +1 willis7469, you should buy my JBL Studio S312 tower's and install on ceiling as Atmos surrounds. Ha Ha.


 Rofl!!! Got 4? I'll start selling it to my wife.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

_willis7469,_

I have 2 as main speakers. But should be receiving the new Chane arx5-c's in a couple weeks to replace them. Love, love, love the JBL Studio's but time for a change. Honestly, I'm not sure what I'll do with the JBL's yet.
I also love the look of your setup with the substantial exposed speakers. My wife puts up with the 'eyesore' of our exposed massive front soundstage, but for WAF I used in-ceiling speakers for surrounds. Instead of using standard speaker floor stands for the surrounds, I wanted to hang them down from the ceiling, my significant other said 'No.'

I apologize for the thread hijacking.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

gdstupak, thanks for the nice words. My wife would likely be much happier if I removed all my gear, but I live here too, and we both made our compromises. I also love my 312's. (Wanted 412's but...) good luck with the chanes. I'll be interested in your opinion since we share love of the JBL's. I'm sure you'll start a thread! Ok high jack over. Sorry Lou, back to you!!!!!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Ok high jack over. Sorry Lou, back to you!!!!!


No worries, thanks!



gdstupak said:


> _willis7469,_I wanted to hang them (_surrounds_) down from the ceiling
> I apologize for the thread hijacking.


Also worries! How were you going to hang them. In the '70s, we suspended things with decorative lamp chains and eyehook screws.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> Put them in the two rear corners. That would be the best location in your situation.





willis7469 said:


> I thought that too. I wonder about door clearance.


I like that much more than putting them in front of the LP. Willis7469, you're right. The door would hit the speaker.



tonyvdb said:


> turn them on their side angled toward the listening position and place it above the door swing. It would be better than how it is now.





natescriven said:


> That sounds like the best option to me too. You need them as far away from each other and you as possible in that small of a room. Hats off to you for being willing to tweak. I think you'll be really happy with the change.


Hindsight's 20-20, and it makes a lot more sense to me now. I can't wait for the improvement! Have to find the right mounts, though. Not sure I'll be able to salvage the existing ones. They hold the weight and have a restraining lip to avoid slide-offs while tilted, but the tilt angle won't be enough at that height to point at the LP. Soon I'll check out the stud locations for suitable anchor points. I'll also start shopping for wall mounts, but didn't see any the first time around that had extreme tilt angles.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

BlueRockinLou said:


> How were you going to hang them.


We have a higher ceiling with 2 ceiling fans that are hung down on rods. I thought, why not do that with surround speakers. Use the same hollow rods that are used for the ceiling fans and should be able to fabricate some type of speaker mount. 
I would have hung them maybe 2' down from the ceiling. It would probably look too weird if they were hung down to actual listener height, although that's really not very low since the recommended height is ~6' up from floor.

You can see how my ceiling fans are hung in my Photo Gallery.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Didn't know you had the beech ones. Always liked that finish. Nice space! Fwiw, I think hanging surrounds off the ceiling would've been sweet.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

*BlueRockinLou, concerning angling speakers & 7.1 system:*
Obviously you do what sounds best to you, but thought I would mention this in case you hadn't heard it...
For movie surround sound effects, it is suggested that the surround speakers be placed above the LP and aimed straight out, not aimed directly at the LP. This is supposed to help create a diffuse sound field.
For music surround sound, it is suggested that ALL speakers are pointed directly at the LP.

If someone has already mentioned this, I apologize...
to make a 7.1 system, you could leave your current rear speakers where they are and add side surround speakers. 


_*willis7469, concerning hanging speakers:*_
My space and listening area doesn't provide for the easiest speaker placement. For the side surrounds, one wall is further away than the other. For the rear surrounds, the speakers end up in the middle of the kitchen (it's all one combined great room). Also the ceiling is high and sloping. 
I was sitting on my couch thinking how could I get all the speakers in a proper uniform formation & height without cluttering the floor space with stands. I looked at the ceiling fan mounts and said, aha! But the wife said, oh no!
My ceiling speakers are in the exact proper formation, but many feet too high. Even so, they sound great. I'll give a quick example: at the very end of the latest Robin Hood movie (Russell Crowe), an unseen arrow is shot from behind right (of the LP) and flies toward center screen. My surround speakers are ~10' above our ears, but the arrow sounded like it flew right at ear level, both me & the wife jumped and looked straight over to our right afraid the arrow pierced our earlobes! Great stuff!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

gdstupak said:


> ...Obviously you do what sounds best to you...


 I'm hatching out of my audiophile heritage. Hope I'm not taking your comment to mean that I do what I want to the detriment of good sound. I definitely don't mind others' comments or advice. 

:reading: I'm experienced in 2ch systems & setup, but am still a beginner at multichannel. Before reading Wayne's comments on Sound Staging and Imaging (SS&I), I never though an HT system could deliver the goods. Yes, I paid some attention to speaker positioning, sub integration, and REW measurements; but I wasn't serious because of the dismally small (my opinion) space I have to work with. We all face obstacles and make compromises with our rooms and systems. Mine were made before I new better, and I'm trying to correct that. :reading:



gdstupak said:


> For movie surround sound effects, it is suggested that the surround speakers be placed above the LP and aimed straight out, not aimed directly at the LP. This is supposed to help create a diffuse sound field.
> For music surround sound, it is suggested that ALL speakers are pointed directly at the LP.


Yeah, I always thought HT systems were inferior to 2-channel for music listening due to their different speaker location requirements. BUT like I mentioned above, I now realize they can be stellar performers as well! It looks like my HT won't be moving anytime soon, so let the tweaking begin! 



gdstupak said:


> My space and listening area doesn't provide for the easiest speaker placement. My ceiling speakers are in the exact proper formation, but many feet too high. Even so, they sound great. My surround speakers are ~10' above our ears, but the arrow sounded like it flew right at ear level, both me & the wife jumped and looked straight over to our right afraid the arrow pierced our earlobes! Great stuff!


Great stuff, indeed. You motivate me to set my bar higher. My 5.1 system has some of that magic, but not all the times it should. Relocating my surrounds and tweaking the mains will hopefully bring that "great stuff" to my room.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lou, I'm excited for you to make progress. Your rear sound field,when coupled with the front will have you in a nice bubble of sound. IMO proper rear placement is nearly as important as the front for imaging. This is not possible for all and we do what we can. In my case, the pole that carries my right surround was built to do just that.(and switches). You're gonna love it. Anecdote: my cat (sully) loves to sit with me and "watch" stuff around the room when watching movies. It's great when your friends "duck".


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Hello again! I'm launching into *Phase Do* where I actually stop being lazy and _*do*_ something. To borrow from the movie Short Circuit: "I crack myself sideways!"

So I originally thought I'd reuse my current speaker mounts. But they won't swivel in the right direction to orient my surrounds horizontally. Too bad. These are 3-way mounts for up to 30 lbs and have adjustable-width side brackets. Anyway, on with the show... Here's an example of where one surround needs to go:









I'm asking for your help because I think I'll need a specialty pair of mounts. The ones I've seen at certain big-box stores don't cut it. Can anyone steer me toward a decent pair of wall-mounts for my rear surrounds? They must:
be horizontal mount (speaker dimension ~12.75inch)
swivel in at least 2 dimensions (preferrably 3)
hold at least 11.5 pounds
accommodate curved surfaces (a stretch, I know)

The higher the tilt, the better. They're going to mounted close to the ceiling and need to point as far downward as possible. That also means the speaker needs to be tightly anchored to the mount. Some mounts have pre-drilled holes so you can secure both together with screws. I don't have a problem with that because they'll eventually wind up in a secondary system. As far as the curved surfaces go, I know that's a stretch. I was lucky they mated well with my current mounts. I may need to rig something up for the new ones.

Specific recommendations would be great, but brands or websites are welcome, too.
Thanks! Your help is greatly appreciated!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

About a half hour investment turned up... nothing! I think I may have more luck with adapting center channel mounts.


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

BlueRockinLou said:


> About a half hour investment turned up... nothing! I think I may have more luck with adapting center channel mounts.


Why not use a couple of 'L' brackets to make a shelf? Or make a couple of custom shaped brackets that fit the curve of the speaker and give you the angle you want? Another suggestion, you don't necessarily have to point these directly at the listener's ears. They could be aimed at a point just above the head.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

natescriven said:


> Why not use a couple of 'L' brackets to make a shelf? Or make a couple of custom shaped brackets that fit the curve of the speaker and give you the angle you want? Another suggestion, you don't necessarily have to point these directly at the listener's ears. They could be aimed at a point just above the head.


Now there's an idea! ThAnk you. A few pieces of angle iron for mounting. A piece of plywood or MDF for the shelf. A piece of quarter-round for a restraining lip. Over, done-with, gone!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lou, not saying these are be all, end all, but they worked for me. Vogels vlb200. They move up/down/left/right, and support up to 45lbs. They do have a set screw kind of thing. One thing I thought of is if you angle too far down, you may run into clearance issue with the door there too. You will get reflections off the ceiling, and being that close to it, I wonder if it would take away from pointing down anyway. Got to go.... Oh yeah, app freezes when I try to load more than one pic so...


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

,


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Lou, not saying these are be all, end all, but they worked for me. Vogels vlb200. They move up/down/left/right, and support up to 45lbs. They do have a set screw kind of thing. One thing I thought of is if you angle too far down, you may run into clearance issue with the door there too. You will get reflections off the ceiling, and being that close to it, I wonder if it would take away from pointing down anyway. Got to go.... Oh yeah, app freezes when I try to load more than one pic so...


Thanks, I'll add those to my short list. They are some serious-looking surrounds; bet they sound sweet! Here's a pair I found that have up to 30 degree down-tilt! They seem perfect, except: (a) they're not available yet, and (b) my speakers don't have a universal threaded mounting hole. I suppose I could DIY, but am leery of it crashing to the floor some day, or drilling into the xover 
Hmmm. On with the search.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey Lou. What about something like this? If you don't mind screwing directly into your cabs. Supports 22lbs. Or try this link to peerless. If you google universal speaker mounts, you'll find a bunch. 

https://www.peerless-av.com/en-us/professional/products/SPK811


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I like the omni mounts too, and have recommended them before. My surrounds...yeah, I guess they're "Beast" as my kid would say. JBL s-38. Mirrored pair. Designed by the famous (?) Greg Timbers. I've seen plenty of them used as mains even. I'm sick. Goin to bed. Happy shopping.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Hey Lou. What about something like this? If you don't mind screwing directly into your cabs. Supports 22lbs. Or try this link to peerless. If you google universal speaker mounts, you'll find a bunch. https://www.peerless-av.com/en-us/professional/products/SPK811


Seems too good to be true! What a serious looking piece of hardware for only $30 plus change. What's even better is the site has downloadable CAD drawings, so I can verify dimensions before I buy. I'm on Bouncy-Bus going to work right now, but will check this out when I get home. Many thanks!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> I like the omni mounts too, and have recommended them before. My surrounds...yeah, I guess they're "Beast" as my kid would say. JBL s-38. Mirrored pair. Designed by the famous (?) Greg Timbers. I've seen plenty of them used as mains even. I'm sick. Goin to bed. Happy shopping.


Sorry to hear your not feeling well, Willis. I hope it's not what's going around over here. I caught three different bugs, saw as many doctors, and almost had to be put to sleep! Take lots of vitamin C, and hope you get well soon.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Hey Lou. What about something like this? If you don't mind screwing directly into your cabs. Supports 22lbs. Or try this link to peerless. If you google universal speaker mounts, you'll find a bunch.
> 
> https://www.peerless-av.com/en-us/professional/products/SPK811


Oh man, what a disappointment. I just looked at the back of my surrounds. They have a small bass port and a HUGE terminal "box". Or is it the speakers' are just itty-bitty? Why anyone would ever want to bi-wire or bi-amp these tiny little speakers, I'll never know. 
:sneeky: 

Anyway, there's no universal mount and no real estate on the back of these for the ones I've seen so far. Back to the drawing board!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Well if ya can't find mounts, it might be time for new speakers! Lol mwahaaha. Sorry Lou, not trying to enable you. Oh wait, maybe I am. Lol
That's tough. I'm kinda wondering if above the door might be at too much of an angle. Kinda hard to judge from here. I'm gonna look at ur pics some more.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Well I always wondered how to spell that! Do you know what my wife said when I asked her about using part of our tax refund for new surrounds? Neither do I, 'cuz i dont think it would be pretty. Yeah, assuming they'd fit up there, the angle would be extreme. Given an average ear height of 37in, ceiling height of 8ft, and distance between center of head and wall (symmetrically located in room), basic trig yields an approximate down-bubble of 37deg. Yikes! Sent from my iPad using HTShack

Edit: BTW, glad to see you're feeling better. At least it appears that way. I wouldn't wish weeks-long cold or flu on anyone.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Hey Lou. What about something like this? If you don't mind screwing directly into your cabs. Supports 22lbs. Or try this link to peerless. If you google universal speaker mounts, you'll find a bunch.
> 
> https://www.peerless-av.com/en-us/professional/products/SPK811


Okay, I reached my WAF's limit. On to PLAN-B !!  I think the mounts shown above would do the trick if I fastened them to one side of each speaker. Need to take a closer look at the mechanical drawing to pencil-in an install.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Nah, that would be ugly. Besides, the mount wasn't designed for that type of shearing force. Probably wouldn't make THAT much of a difference since they're rated for almost twice the weight of the speakers. I think I'm back to the inclined-shelf with a lip idea. May not get the rake angle needed to aim at or right above ear height, but at least it'll be better than what I have now!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey Lou. Back to the land of the living.(mostly) thanks for your wishes. I just saw you ask about new surrounds. I wouldn't normally suggest di/bipoles. But what if you mounted a pair of them at say 5'(your room seems narrow-ish) on the back wall, maybe a foot or so in from the sides. Maybe the SVS ultra surrounds. they can run in "duet" mode for 7.1 with 5 surround speakers. (Slight rambling) maybe they can be mounted on the back wall, and wired so the side surround channels would fire off the side wall(like atmos anabled modules) and the rear channels would fire at the LP. Probably crazy talk but....
http://www.svsound.com/speakers/ultra-series/ultra-surround
Just saw the price. Sorry....


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Hey Lou. Back to the land of the living.(mostly) thanks for your wishes. I just saw you ask about new surrounds. I wouldn't normally suggest di/bipoles. But what if you mounted a pair of them at say 5'(your room seems narrow-ish) on the back wall, maybe a foot or so in from the sides. Maybe the SVS ultra surrounds. they can run in "duet" mode for 7.1 with 5 surround speakers. (Slight rambling) maybe they can be mounted on the back wall, and wired so the side surround channels would fire off the side wall(like atmos anabled modules) and the rear channels would fire at the LP. Probably crazy talk but.... http://www.svsound.com/speakers/ultra-series/ultra-surround Just saw the price. Sorry....


No apology needed! You've been a great help so far, offering good advice and spending a lot of time in the process. I truly appreciate it! I think if I made the stretch, the SVS ultras would be a good investment, as I could still use them if I ever got a bigger room. Just add another pair and, viola, instant 7.1 or 9.1.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Love to help. Glad you find something in my musings. I'm gonna keep after this room of yours. Lol! 
I do not like SR, and SL speakers on the back wall, but sometimes that's how they have to be done. Due to all the considerations of your room, as someone earlier mentioned, in walls might be an option. I still think the ultras would be worth the long term option. I would maybe holler at svs and see what they say. Maybe I'm all wet? Isn't this forum great?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

I think that In-wall and in-ceiling speakers are both hard to swallow because it's hard to predict how they'll sound in the mounting location. Some have drivers that can be aimed a little, but I think there are still other issues that I don't understand, right? if I were to spend anything on surrounds for my current room, it would be for a specialty speaker like you suggested. In-wall seems like just another compromise. Maybe if I whittle enough off that Honey-Do list my wife will let me switch to a bigger room. HAH! After reading the "Surround Scenes" thread, I've really got the fever to improve the system NOW. I'm going to try to find time this weekend to remount them on the sides. I know it's a compromise compared to the corners, but the door's in the way. It'll still be in the way for side-mounting, but at least I won't be listening so far off-axis. The arrangement won't be perfectly symmetrical but, hey, isn't that what room correction is for? Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Still trying to make the time to relocate surrounds... Honey-Do list weekend before last, then went to a wedding the following (last) weekend. This coming weekend is my son's Prom pictures and daughters college graduation. Will probably want to recover next weekend. Don't know why I fell like I have to have nothing else scheduled... I may never get it done.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

This coming weekend is my drop-dead date for changing surround locations. With the family out of town, I'm a temporary bachelor and think I can swing the mods and remaining honey-do list in one fell swoop! :flex:
My head is swimming with possibilities and questions, but I _think_ it's time to stop _overthinking_ and get on with it. What could happen, right? My plan is to:
Detach the existing wall mounts without destroying them (boy are they fastened down good)
Reroute speaker cables
Reattach the mounts on the side walls in front of the LP
Aim them in one of three different ways (at the LP, in front of LP, and at opposite wall)
Run DIRAC LIVE and REW for each of the three aiming configurations
Objective/Subjective comparisons
Rinse & Repeat!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and I plan to follow them instead of my hurried "rip out and re-install" plan. Wall-mounts are much cheaper than good new speakers, so my financial hands are tied. Finding the right mount depends on speaker location, and I think your consensus is (in order of preference):
Top rear corner (might interfere with door)
On side over door jamb (need specialty mount)
Ahead of and aimed near LP (forced lack of symmetry)
Glenn mentioned earlier the goal was to place them as far away as possible, and I agree. In the meantime, just for the sake of experimenting I came up with temporary locations that are both at ear-level and are symmetrical about the LP axis:

PROPOSED LEFT SIDE SURROUND LOCATION 








PROPOSED RIGHT SIDE SURROUND LOCATION 








PERSPECTIVE-1 (Surround relative to front stage)








PERSPECTIVE-2 (Surround relative to front stage)








The surrounds would sit on top of the egg crates on each side of the LP. From center-of-head to speaker cabinet midpoint is 4 to 5 feet. *Would it be better to move them closer to the mains? Is that only done when you have backs?*

No doubt they'd need to play quite low to avoid overpowering the stage, but *DSP should correct for close proximity, correct?* On my system, program variation could be trimmed out using the processor's remote. Of course, I might want to use some kind of feet to keep them off the crates.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Lou, not saying these are be all, end all, but they worked for me. Vogels vlb200. They move up/down/left/right, and support up to 45lbs. They do have a set screw kind of thing. One thing I thought of is if you angle too far down, you may run into clearance issue with the door there too. You will get reflections off the ceiling, and being that close to it, I wonder if it would take away from pointing down anyway. Got to go.... Oh yeah, app freezes when I try to load more than one pic so.


After some research, I'd prefer these but their sadly discontinued. Amazon customer feedback for similar replacements are not positive. But...



willis7469 said:


> Hey Lou. What about something like this? If you don't mind screwing directly into your cabs. Supports 22lbs. Or try this link to peerless. If you google universal speaker mounts, you'll find a bunch.


I like that one. It offers a lot of promise for ceiling or wall-mount. Drilling into the cabinet is a compromise that _must_ be done for my tiny room. I have them on order for delivery tomorrow!

*BTW... Very nice install! And nice speakers. Especially like the connector plate, too. Did I mention the speakers?* :T


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey ol buddy! Thanks for the compliments. It's nice to hear those things. My wife holds back,lol! I've been agonizing over your pictures. They never seem to convey the real scope of a space. It looks like the CD rack is in the way of the door as much as a speaker would be. For me, I might do nothing more than move them as far wide as I could, and aim them at the LP. Surrounds should not fire from the back wall(7.1 notwithstanding), but all things considered, if you can get them far enough apart, it will work well. Either on the back wall or the door wall/corner I guess. . I hate to be the breadcrumbs in the butter, but I'm against putting them in front of the LP. Maybe an experiment of sorts. Find something tall, and stable to support the speakers, and get them as close as you can to the corners. Or temp shelves. Listen and go from there.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Sharp eye there! Yes, CD rack is in the way; have to squeeze past it. I've see-sawed wildly these past few posts and about my intentions because wasn't sure about mounts. Had given up but the perfectionist in me wouldn't have it. The near-field, side-firing scenario was a cop-out. I was secretly hoping it would work, but knew better deep down inside. So in a frenzy, I did more research and couldn't find better mounts than you recommended. KUDOS! 

I'm confident they'll work above the door angled down a little to the rear of the LP. Will have to wait and see if the mounts themselves will be fastened to the wall or to the ceiling. It's not clear whether they come with mounting hardware, so a trip or two to the hardware store is probably on the agenda.

Thanks so much for the reply, and have a good weekend. I'll let ya know how it turns out! :sweat:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Sounds great Lou! I'm excited to hear your impressions. You're gonna love it.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

If you don't want to use speaker stands (floor stands), I would mount the speakers 90 degrees off to your sides.
The left surround would mount as close the door frame as possible.
The right surround would mount in the area where the closet door is. You could slide the closet door forward and construct a solid filler piece to fill the gap in the closet opening, mount the speaker to that filler piece.

I would mount the speakers so they are about 1' above ear level and pointing straight into the room.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Good News: The mounts are here!
Better News: The speaker has enough room to mate up on the back instead of the side like I thought!

*Old Mount (View-A)*








*Old Mount (View-B)*








*New Mount*








*Back of Surround Speaker*








*Avaliable mounting location!!*








*Forced removal of old mount*








*Just a work zone right now*


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

That's great Lou! Looking forward to more pics and impressions later. Good work.


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

> Forced removal of old mount


Sometimes a bit of *gentle persuasion* is required. addle:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

robbo266317 said:


> Sometimes a bit of *gentle persuasion* is required. addle:


Wait'll you see my first sub build :scared: :rofl2:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

robbo266317 said:


> Sometimes a bit of gentle persuasion is required. addle:


 Yes indeed! And I personally consider the Hammer a precision instrument.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

I'm impressed with these mounts! The tilt mechanism has gear-type teeth for a good repeatable grip. The finish is attractive, and the safety cable is a nice touch. I finished mounting speakers & re-routing speaker cable. No mishaps! But it did take two tries to get the door clearance right. A few pieces of drywall and a gallon or two of paint should put everything back just like it was! :unbelievable:

The surrounds wound up high and a little behind the LP (sorry, Glenn, I'm no handyman and can't tackle the closet door mods you suggested). Both L & R surrounds are pretty close to the ceiling, so I think I'll need acoustic treatment. No doubt GIK can help with that. The right surround can be aimed directly at, over, fore or aft of the LP! The left surround is somewhat limited because of the door, but it can still be aimed over the LP. 

So I put the room back together, but too tired to run REW and/or Dirac tonight. Tomorrow's another day! How profound is that?! BluLou signing off for now.

*Right Surround*









*Wall Mounted Assembly!*









*Door Clearance of Left Surround While Pointed at LP*


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

We will wait with baited breath to hear the results of your labours. 
Enjoy your


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

No listening sessions for me yet, no sir. I want to slightly rearrange the front stage to be more in-line with HT specs than with convenience. The mains are positioned away from the walls and each other, but they're also positioned to allow easy access behind the equipment shelves. The trap locations help, but are also a bit of a joke--they need to be in the corners to be most effective as the only pair in the room. But I digress from this thread.

Following up to yesterday's install, the actual tweeter locations are 5-1/2 ft line-of-sight to the LP, 6 ft 11 in off the floor (1 ft from the ceiling), but only 8" behind. Looks like rain today, so that should keep the mowing noise from interfering with REW measurements and Dirac. I'm even comfortable enough with REW that I may post some graphs! Back to the grindstone!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

As the other "bill" said, we be watin! How bout some pics from the front toward the back? Also, what's the height to the new location?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Woah, easy "Bill," if that IS your real name! I haven't had my second cup o' Joe yet .

While I'm stumblin' through relocating my mains/sub, here are some more pics of the surround install. Remember now... no snickering! The left surround (right in the pics because they're taken from the front of the room) isn't finished yet. Still need to tidy-up the wiring. 

Also, will probably mount the acoustic panel (behind the LP) horizontally to allow for greater head movement. LP is 26 in off the back wall when slouching and ears sinking into chair back. I know, I know, that position absorbs a lot of HF. What a decision to make when choosing measurement mic locations! As for the bass traps, I plan to hang them from the ceiling in the front corners--more effective & better utilization of space. Anyway, once I review Wayne's 2ch setup guide and other 5ch setup, I'll re-position the mains via listening sessions and calibration. Rule of thirds and fifths anyone? 

*Removal damage:*








*Wide View from front*








*Close ups*


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Latest developments (thread is going off-topic now, so might start new one):
My 13'2" x 8'11" room is too small to allow for Wayne's HTS Two-Channel Speaker Setup Guide for a Deep Soundstage. The Simple Method yields 4.8' from speaker plane to LP, which forces furniture out of the room. The Complex Method yields 29.6" speaker to side wall spacing, which puts them in front of the screen. 

My room is also too small for standard Dolby 5.1 setup . For a 22-30 degree angle between a main speaker and the LP, they would need to be 88-126" apart and 118-126" from the LP. That would push the tweeters about 9" from the side walls and (too close IMO) to the front wall.

So what to do? I don't plan on listening to a lot of music in my HT shoe box, so lets optimize for movies! I know it'll still be important to try and avoid placing the speakers where they'll excite room modes. And it'll be important to position them a different distance from side and front walls. I already know how to tune by ear for SS&I, but I'm confused about movie optimization. *The center channel handles most of the screen action, so is it important to keep mains close to the screen?*


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

NO, I would not consider any reason to put the Front Left and Front Right "closer to the screen." 

I'm not familiar with the guide you're using, but my seat of the pants method is to put the Left and Right wide enough so that a sound moving from left to right has a perceived distance of travel across the front wall. 

A good test might be the opening of the first Star Wars (1977) [sic]. The music comes from the left and right, then the rebel blockade runner (Tantive IV iirc) enters the soundstage from the rear and suddenly zooms into "ear view" in the front center, as the music builds in intensity on the sides. 

Put the left and right too close together, and you get what a Dolby engineer called irrc "the big muddy" (prior to SW, they had a system with L, LF, C, RF, R across the screen, it was considered a flub).


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I think chromejob has the right idea Lou. Too far from the side of the screen and audio cues/pans will teleport from off the screen to the speaker. This is very distracting. I would play with toe in. You'll want to be as wide as you can without collapsing the front stage. Play time!!!


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

I follow the 3:4 rule for proper audio imaging.
The ratio of speaker-to-speaker distance to speaker-to-LP distance is 3:4.
In my room...
Listening distance =~13'
so...
Speaker width =~9.5'

My tv screen size is 53" (diagonal) widescreen aspect ratio. My audio and visual effects flow well together.


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

Chromejob said:


> NO, I would not consider any reason to put the Front Left and Front Right "closer to the screen."
> 
> I'm not familiar with the guide you're using, but my seat of the pants method is to put the Left and Right wide enough so that a sound moving from left to right has a perceived distance of travel across the front wall.
> 
> ...



I had to go get my 2005 DVD to check ... the Special Edition Star Wars mix (2.0 and 5.1 EX) both muddy up the arrival of the Tantive IV on screen. Big ol' boom as the ship arrives on screen. Pfft.

In the LaserDisc edition (disc two of that DVD release) 2.0 mix, the Tantive IV arrives slowly in the rear surround channel(s), then blasts into Right main, and immediately transitions into Center as it flies over Tatooine. Lots of blaster fire as it speeds away from the Star Destroyer. I remember this in the theater, this slow apprehensive approach of the sound from the back (right rear?) of the theater, than a loud engine blast darting from Right front to Center as the music crescendos on the sides. Ben Burtt-gasm. ... As C3PO and R2D2 are talking and the ship is being captured, you can hear all kinds of mechanical sounds and banging in the Center as the Rebel soldiers are rushing into the corridor, and you can hear the orchestral music playing the rising Rebel theme in the side main channels. In the AC3 LaserDisc mix, this was a masterful moment, probably one of the top 10 openings in cinema. 

There are lots of other films with superb directional effects (e.g. Getaway, when a tower comes crashing down in the railway station). I almost want to get a copy of Blue Thunder just to hear the allegedly disappointing but serviceable audio track (I remember at Eileen Norris Theater at USC when we saw it before the release, the sound of helicopters and rotors around downtown was a complete surround feast).




willis7469 said:


> I think chromejob has the right idea Lou. Too far from the side of the screen and audio cues/pans will teleport from off the screen to the speaker. This is very distracting. I would play with toe in. You'll want to be as wide as you can without collapsing the front stage. Play time!!!


Said it better than I did. ThankYouSir.



gdstupak said:


> I follow the 3:4 rule for proper audio imaging.
> 
> The ratio of speaker-to-speaker distance to speaker-to-LP distance is 3:4.
> 
> ...


Hrm, I'm all whopperjawed then. My screen is only 40", speakers are 11' and 11'6" from MLP (center of the sofa, but no one sits in the center), and 13'6" apart. I often play 2.0 material using DD PL II Music to wide the center channel with some phantom reinforcement (center width reduced from default 3 to 2 though). 

It sounds A-OK to me though. (shrug)


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Thanks for all your feedback and input!! It especially helps that you're all following along. I never expected to get answers so quickly. THANKS! All your suggestions are working to some degree. I started with a combo Rule of Thirds and Fifths. That left a hole-in-the-middle effect, so I moved them closer an inch at a time, then backed off when it all congealed into a blob. They blocked the screen a bit in that location, so I wound up separating them some, but compensated with toe-in. Compared to when I started, they are now closer together, closer to the LP, but toed-in less. It's not precise or rigorous, but it'll do until I get more time next bachelor-mode weekend (Memorial Day).

Right now just want to run through Dirac as quick as possible using a previously successful technique, and then plop down to enjoy the system for a while. Be back with updates and more impressions soon!


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Chromejob said:


> Hrm, I'm all whopperjawed then. My screen is only 40", speakers are 11' and 11'6" from MLP (center of the sofa, but no one sits in the center), and 13'6" apart....It sounds A-OK to me though. (shrug)


What are you all whopperjawed about? That your system doesn't follow the measurement rule that I posted, yet yours still sounds good to you?
There are many different 'rules' for accomplishing the same things in audio, some work better or worse in certain circumstances. Experiment!


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

Yeah, I was joking. What I might not've mentioned is that the mains are Bose 401s, with direct reflecting design. "Toe in" by design, with a need to be a few feet from side walls for the side-firing woofers. 

Don't even ask how my surrounds are arranged.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Dirac wouldn't run until i connected both the XMC-1 and the laptop to my gateway via hardwired Ethernet. Must have had poor WiFi signal strength. Had no patience after that ordeal, so just put Dirac through its paces without rigorous mic positioning. So instead of equidistant 6inch delta points, measurement was randomly relative 
Having just upgraded to Dirac Full for Emotiva, I couldn't resist creating a house curve with 3dB upward tilt for mains from 250 to 70 Hz, and -1.5dB trough for center channel from 2.5kHz to 4kHz. Mains and center were rolled-off starting at 70Hz on the low end, and 15kHz on the high end. Dirac's target curve was left alone (+3dB plateau from 20-70Hz, except for a steeper roll off under 28Hz.

Didn't pick out eanything special for first listen, but was pleasantly surprised with Eagles "Hell Freezes Over." Not sure about the mix, but seemed to change perspectives from on-stage to mid audience regardless of camera angle. A little disorienting, but soon became used to it. The acoustic guitars were very mellow, and well, pleasant. I may have gone overboard with my center channel house curve. This whole show seemed to have too much surround info. Not changing anything, I next watched Sleep Hollow" and got the impression there wasn't enough surround info.

Gotta go right now, but will try to watch something from the Surround Scenes thread to get a baseline.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

Do you have a list of your movies, e.g. My Collection at Blu-ray.com? (Hint : you can scan them in by UPC with the My Movies mobile app, iOS or Android.) easy to make suggestions if we have something in common.

http://www.blu-ray.com/community/collection.php?u=103983


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

_David S.,_

Yes, I was joking about 'rules.' There are many recommendations.
Toe in. There is another one with many different 'rules.'
"Never cross streams." " Always cross streams in front of LP." "Use this formula which uses the length of the listening room to determine where the streams should cross."


_Lou, (side wall reflection problem?)_

I don't know this for sure, this is just me thinking out loud. And surely someone else would know better.
I wonder if it might be good to put sound absorption on the walls beside your chair? Because of your side walls being so close together and your surround speakers firing toward them, you might get unwanted reflections. Example... there should be a sound effect that stays on the left side, but you hear it also on the right side because of the reflection from the wall.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Chromejob said:


> Do you have a list of your movies, e.g. My Collection at Blu-ray.com? (Hint : you can scan them in by UPC with the My Movies mobile app, iOS or Android.) easy to make suggestions if we have something in common.
> 
> http://www.blu-ray.com/community/collection.php?u=103983


Conjure's up wisps of that old Army commercial: "We do more before 8am than most people do all day!" I appreciate the help in trying to give me a frame of reference for good scenes. Scanning through the Surround Scenes thread, I found a few I already own:
Saving Private Ryan
Transformers DOM
Jack Reacher
The Matrix

I also have many action-adventure, & sci-fi such as:
Battleship
War of the Worlds (Tom Cruise)
Star Trek (motion picture series)
Jurassic Park (series)
Alien (series)
Fury
Columbiana
etc.

Many more in the three tubs hidden behind my LP!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

gdstupak said:


> _Lou, (side wall reflection problem?)_
> 
> I don't know this for sure, this is just me thinking out loud. And surely someone else would know better.
> I wonder if it might be good to put sound absorption on the walls beside your chair? Because of your side walls being so close together and your surround speakers firing toward them, you might get unwanted reflections. Example... there should be a sound effect that stays on the left side, but you hear it also on the right side because of the reflection from the wall.


Very good point. I was so enveloped in ridding my room of front-end reflections, I neglected the back! The surrounds are aimed 2 feet directly over the LP. I can go lower on the right, but the left is limited by door clearance. Even with the surrounds firing into untreated surfaces, the room sounds almost overdamped. I think instead of adding more absorption, I'll take your advice and move the panels from 2nd reflection duty on the mains, to absorption duty on the surrounds. They're on the narrow side of "just wide enough" but we'll see how they measure up--need to keep enough reflective surfaces untreated for balanced SQ.

Do you recommend acoustic treatment on the ceiling above each surround?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lou, my time is short now, but I thought I'd say nice job. I'm glad the mounts worked so well, and I enjoyed your notes on them, and your process throughout. I'm gonna nod to lone survivor once again. The surround field is almost continuously busy and once the fire fight begins you'll be checking the Sheetrock and yourself for shrapnel!


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

ST VI THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY has some good surround IIRC.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Some out-loud notes on progress/status:
Have yet to watch show with known-good surround content
Treat side walls opposite each surround
Adjust soundstage by increasing distance between mains (too close to screen)
Try to aim surrounds lower (curently cross 2ft above LP)
Take advantage of Chane's sale on the M1 MTM


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hi Lou, I think you mentioned in your near field thread, when you stood up it all gelled better. I'm gonna risk being bread crumbs in the butter, but I believe the reason is because they're too high. I know you had to figure out the door thing, but as I mentioned earlier, I think you should have put them on the back wall, as far as you could next to the door. Maybe even put a door stop in the floor to stop from hitting the speaker. Your room is very narrow and it looks like you're mounted at 45 deg above ear at least. IMO 30-35 is where you want to be. Maybe treatment on the ceiling would allow sound to wash down the sides??? Just guessing. But I don't think aiming lower will tighten it up as much as you're looking for.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Try pointing your surround speakers straight down if you can. I know it's not normal, but it can't hurt to try. I always thought my surround system was compromised badly because I have my surrounds in-ceiling 8' above LP pointing straight down. But really, it sounds great. I get great separation between left and right speakers when called for. There is also great front to back sound placement.

As I mentioned earlier, Robin Hood (Russell Crowe) has that scene just before the end credits roll where an arrow is shot from behind right. My surround speakers made it sound like the arrow whizzed down beside our right ears. Try to get a hold of that scene as a test.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Will have time for some serious listening this weekend. First impressions say the verdict's in. My limited options for LP not far enough off back wall and compromised surround locations are a big hurdle to overcome. I may never get the localization and dynamics you all describe. Then again, I notice a big improvement and feel more immersed in the action. If I'm still not satisfied after relocating/tweaking this weekend, should I consider better speakers? I currently use the PSB B-5.



willis7469 said:


> Hi Lou, I think you mentioned in your near field thread, when you stood up it all gelled better. I'm gonna risk being bread crumbs in the butter, but I believe the reason is because they're too high. I know you had to figure out the door thing, but as I mentioned earlier, I think you should have put them on the back wall, as far as you could next to the door. Maybe even put a door stop in the floor to stop from hitting the speaker. Your room is very narrow and it looks like you're mounted at 45 deg above ear at least. IMO 30-35 is where you want to be. Maybe treatment on the ceiling would allow sound to wash down the sides??? Just guessing. But I don't think aiming lower will tighten it up as much as you're looking for.


Yeah, yeah, I know. You and Tony and Glenn all recommended the rear wall. High up, the smoke detector is in the way. Lower and the door opens only a few inches. Lower _and_ out of the door's way puts it extremely nearfield and off-axis. Right now they're laser-aligned 2' above the LP (I calculated a downward tilt of 37 degrees from horizontal in Post #35). That puts them moderately off-axis. Some reviewers think the tweeter sounds brittle/hard on or off-axis,so maybe that's contributing to my poor results? As I said above, if there's anything I've learned its "Place speakers, tweak locations, and treat room before upgrading anything." But my options are limited--and you haven't steered me wrong yet--so I'm thinking that an upgrade may be the next step. Chane is having a wonderful sale on the M-1 right now! Then again, new speakers won't change my limited placement problem. Aaaaarrrrggghhh :wits-end:



gdstupak said:


> Try pointing your surround speakers straight down if you can. I know it's not normal, but it can't hurt to try. I always thought my surround system was compromised badly because I have my surrounds in-ceiling 8' above LP pointing straight down. But really, it sounds great. I get great separation between left and right speakers when called for. There is also great front to back sound placement.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier, Robin Hood (Russell Crowe) has that scene just before the end credits roll where an arrow is shot from behind right. My surround speakers made it sound like the arrow whizzed down beside our right ears. Try to get a hold of that scene as a test.


Straight down may work. I'm the only one who cares about the sound, so I could position them to favor the LP (as you've no doubt noticed by now, the room's set up for me alone, rather than my family). But how to judge even decent location so I don't have to move them? Not an attractive prospect having to mount them on ceiling even once, let alone move them: I'll need a LOT more Wheaties! I'd also be worried about them falling on my head sometime down the road.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

C


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey Lou. I'm on the road so I got to got to keep this short. I was just wondering if you were anybody else is considered money not rear left surround on the door. It might be crazy but if the space is yours anyways, why not give it a try? If you ever move your listening space all it would take us some wood filler and a coat of paint and nobody would ever know that it was there. The only problem that it might create is some acoustic anomalies maybe by coupling to the door. You hold the WAFin your hand! How many of us can say that? Or should I say the LAF? Lol (yep, Lou approval factor)


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Hah Hah Hah. You have your laughing!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ummmm.... What?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

It's Lou-Humour, you wouldn't understand. Hah and... Knee! (As in the Knights who say "NI" from Monty Python's Holy Grail).
Thanks for the laughs, funnyman 

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

It's only a flesh wound my dear Lou
:laugh:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Now you're making sense! That was a little before my time. Btw, I wasn't joking about the door. 
Or the LAF! (Kinda like that one)


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

gdstupak said:


> ....I have my surrounds in-ceiling 8' above LP pointing straight down.


If you're in the LP and look up, where are the surrounds (forward, back, 2 ft to left and right, etc.)?

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> ....Btw, I wasn't joking about the door. Or the LAF! (Kinda like that one)


I have no problem with the idea of mounting it to the door (can always add a door stop). I'd have to rearrange the album crates a little to restore surround symmetry. Will take a look and see how sturdy the door is. If it's like the closet doors then it's hollow, so instead of a better door, I'd rather buy surrounds that sound better off-axis. I'd also rather buy a sub with HT credentials - Dig Down Deep. Maybe I should start a DIY build. The LAF Room D-Cubed sub!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

_Lou,_

I took photos with my phone and tried to post them with my phone but got 'error' each time, maybe later.

You can look at this older photo and get an idea of placement....
 

The ceiling is angled, so I use speakers that have angle adjustable tweeters.
Mine is a 7.1 set up, but even if it were only 5.1, I would keep the side surround speaker placement the same, or they would be moved rearward ~1' so they would be ~105 degrees from LP.

side surrounds....
...front to rear placement,, exactly 90 degrees from LP, they are neither forward nor rearward of the LP.
...side to side placement,, 5' to the L&R side of the center of LP, which is 10' spacing between each other.
...tweeter angle,, the tweeters are angled so they are pointing straight down in a vertical line, they are not angled inboard toward the LP.

rear surrounds....
...front to rear placement,, ~135 degrees from LP, they are 5.5' rearward of the LP.
...side to side placement,, 2.5' to the L&R side of the center of LP, which is 5' spacing between each other.
...tweeter angle,, the tweeters are angled so they are pointed slightly behind the couch, they are not angled inboard toward the LP.


_Speaker Quality,_
My JBL in-ceiling speakers are good quality but they are still compromised because they are in-ceiling speakers. I figure your PSB speakers are much better quality in every aspect. If you are not satisfied with your surround sound, I doubt it has to do with the PSB quality.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Wow Glenn, that's more detail than I expected. Thanks! Very nice room BTW. 
Thanks also for the PSB feedback. If I feel something's wrong when I audition surround scenes this weekend, I'll temporarily hook them up as limited-range mains in stereo. That should spotlight any damage or lesser distortions.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I didn't think about hollow core doors. Mine are solid oak. Also forgot about your sub. I agree with Glenn in that your psb's are probably not worth replacing before the sub. I would allocate my budget there first.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Thanks again to all who have contributed. Your suggestions have been taken to heart and have me well on the way to a very decent sounding system/room. Already Wednesday, and I haven't posted the results of my weekend surround auditioning! I brought in a couple more bass traps to put behind the speakers: a 20" dia x 49" tall whomper opposite the sub, and a 16x49 model adjacent to it. Decided to leave the surrounds as-is because of back pains, and because any lower and the left one would interfere with opening and closing the door. I toyed with the idea of barricading myself in like that, but finally came to my senses when I realized that the extra food & water would interfere with the sound by making the room even smaller than it already is! 

So I watched a few music videos and movies but left out music-only listening because the system is nowhere near dialed-in for great SS&I. That may be a larger part of the problem, and I'll need to work on that this upcoming 3-day weekend, and upcoming pseudo-bachelor week. Yep, the missus is out of town again but this time the honey-do list is short short short! Anyway, music videos were a mixed bag (pun intended-HAH!), depending on the mix. That's fodder for another thread. Movies varied somewhat in their surround content, but we all know that movies are held to a much higher standard. Lone Survivor did not disappoint. I used to have to stand up or move forward and sit down for the stage to lock-in and surround effects to gel. Now I get a good part of that from the LP. But directional queues were still lacking, so I moved treatments. More gelling.

Oops gotsta get off the bus! More to follow!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Now off the bus and on a full-blown computer workstation, I can disperse with spending energy on correcting the iPad's oft-annoying spellchecker. In my previous post, I mentioned bringing in more bass traps, but hope I didn't cause a misunderstanding; the traps are meant to smooth bass response, not improve the surround soundfield. 

I think all of you have laid out my options (and I trust your judgement better than my own), so I'm going to follow them and try to figure out a way to mount the surround speaker to the door. I'm in no way/shape/form a handyman, so the end result will no doubt be interesting to behold. I envision a mounting method similar to through-bolts with a back-plate to spread the pressure/weight. It will look unprofessional and maybe even ugly from the entrance side, but a wall hanging or man-cave poster should make short work of that!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

gdstupak said:


> _Lou,_... I figure your PSB speakers are much better quality in every aspect. If you are not satisfied with your surround sound, I doubt it has to do with the PSB quality.





willis7469 said:


> I didn't think about hollow core doors. Mine are solid oak. Also forgot about your sub. I agree with Glenn in that your psb's are probably not worth replacing before the sub. I would allocate my budget there first.


^^^ See post above ^^^

I've got the fever for the flavor of a subterranean sub!!!


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

re: iPad keyboard ... try Swiftkey. Annoying how it delays loading, but supports full swiping, and learns your words way, way better. Syncs in the cloud for your other iDevices. 

Now back to our topic....


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Heyyyy hey hhaaaaaaayyyyy
I I eye eye Knut nun nuh nuh know what you mean.
Th th th th thanks for duh tippezz!,,!

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Bouncy bus found some potholes? Lol


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Now off the bus and on a full-blown computer workstation, I can disperse with spending energy on correcting the iPad's oft-annoying spellchecker. In my previous post, I mentioned bringing in more bass traps, but hope I didn't cause a misunderstanding; the traps are meant to smooth bass response, not improve the surround soundfield.
> 
> I think all of you have laid out my options (and I trust your judgement better than my own), so I'm going to follow them and try to figure out a way to mount the surround speaker to the door. I'm in no way/shape/form a handyman, so the end result will no doubt be interesting to behold. I envision a mounting method similar to through-bolts with a back-plate to spread the pressure/weight. It will look unprofessional and maybe even ugly from the entrance side, but a wall hanging or man-cave poster should make short work of that!


If you look at my gallery, the basement or main HT system, you will notice the exact same mounts hold up a pair of PSB Image 1Bs . These mounts are not screwed into any studs either. Just the dry wall hholding them up but I used all the holes provided.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Hmmm... maybe the door's strong enough. Then again, what could go wrong?!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I wouldn't trust sheet rock. At least not without good anchors. The door? If it's solid, just some lag screws would work great. Or your plate idea too.


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

Yeah, dry wall really doesn't support weight and vibration well. And when it fails, it's a terrible mess to repair....


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

I have used these successfully to hang my TV on a plasterboard wall (drywall) as there weren't many studs where the holes for the mount were positioned. They are rated to hold 10 kg.

They are only useful for objects that don't stick out very far so most of the force is acting straight down.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yep. Those are the best.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

I've used those anchors to screw the shelves to plaster board walls that the heavy surrounds sit on..
Haven't had a speaker come down and my walls vibrate on loud deep bass!..


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

Ah, shelves, yes. Though if the brackets are putting inward or outward force on the drywall ...  .


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

There is a lot of outward force on the shelved and the 3mm. thick cast iron brackets tend to flex a little under the weight of the surrounds, but those anchors really hang on! :yes:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

I'm grateful for all your replies and help, just taking a break from the surrounds issue while I deal with replacing my sub. Thanks!


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> I wouldn't trust sheet rock. At least not without good anchors. The door? If it's solid, just some lag screws would work great. Or your plate idea too.


It depends on the weight you are try to hang and how spread out the mounting holes are in the bracket. I agree that if the mountholes are closely distributed, then I would agree with you. 

I hung up a 32" LCD using just dry wall anchors and stayed there with no issues at all until I moved it to the corner with a boom mount. There I had to go into studs.

If you look at my HT setup, you will notice my two surround speakers held up my drywall anchors only. Its been like that for the last 5 years now and the mountsare still sitting there tight with no play between the mount and the drywall. My speakers are 10lbs and the mounts themselves are around 4 to 5 pounds.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey 3db. Iirc, your statement was that you used just drywall. Looking back, I wonder if you just assumed I knew you meant with anchors(I do that sometimes). I've used anchors like the ones Bill posted to mount lots of heavy things, and 10lb surrounds would easily go up with these. I would probably even try a small tv with them. Fwiw, my surrounds weigh around 30lbs each, and those do not qualify without studs lol.


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## 3dbinCanada (Sep 13, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Hey 3db. Iirc, your statement was that you used just drywall. Looking back, I wonder if you just assumed I knew you meant with anchors(I do that sometimes). I've used anchors like the ones Bill posted to mount lots of heavy things, and 10lb surrounds would easily go up with these. I would probably even try a small tv with them. Fwiw, my surrounds weigh around 30lbs each, and those do not qualify without studs lol.


Agreed. thats a lot of weight to hang in a narrow area.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> I'm grateful for all your replies and help, just taking a break from the surrounds issue while I deal with replacing my sub. Thanks!


 Lou Ray! At least I t's a worthy distraction! I hope ya get it figured soon. For your own sanity if nothing else. Lol


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

HAH! Done! After much slaving over detail, sweating over vented vs sealed, and squirming in delight I finally settled the "When My Sub Grows Up (Not Blows Up)" debate. As the final activities wind down (heh heh), I find myself contemplating my surrounds once again. 

My mic measurement techniques for Dirac room correction have evolved over the course of the subwoofer shootout, much to the improvement of surround effects. Along with the semi-recent relocation of said surrounds, I'm not sure I feel the need to tweak or upgrade. Now I know some of you are heartbroken at the thought of unfinished business in that regard, because Lou's threads are so intensely engaging. So I may have to venture forth into an upgrade extravaganza soon. Maybe 5.1 to 7.1? Cost-no-object surround speaker replacements? Insert dreaming icon here --> :daydream:


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

All those big subs in your home have given you a false sense of....well something or other. 

Upgrade extravaganza, yeah. :heehee:


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