# 5 Matched speakers for HT setup?



## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

Hi,
Is anyone out there running 5 matched bookshelf speakers in their HT setup?

Another question would be if anyone compared that to a traditional matched center setup?

I am toying with the idea of getting 3 Paradigm Studio 20's for fronts (adding two more later) or
just 2 + a traditional center.

I've read that the best setup would be 5 matched speakers, but usually not feasible due to speaker height causing placement issues for the center speaker. 

Thanks.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ideally yes having all 5 speakers identical is the best route however many people have great success with mixed speakers. the key is to have good tonal similarities between all the speakers. I know I will get alot of flack on saying this but I truly think that its not as big a deal as it used to be given the auto room correction that receivers have now like YAPO, Auddessy and MMAC they can correct for the differences.


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

Thanks. With all the big center speakers that some manufacturers I was wondering if I would loose anything with center channel audio. So many centers have dual drivers while the LR is just a single driver.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Some people forgo even using a centre channel speaker and just phantom the dialog to the main left and right channels. This can also be an option.


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

I actually ran a phantom center for a while and I like the souks better with a center at least with the speakers that I currently have. I felt I had better separation of the dialog/action with the center speaker.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I agree, I also like having a centre. This is a fun hobby but it can get costly and that can take the fun out of it. Just do what sounds best to you.


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## megageek (Oct 27, 2011)

Im all for the same speaker all round. I run the same speakers for every channel ( but they're all large floor standers ) and the sound is even and balanced. Without individual eq tweaks i cant see how its possible to make different sized speakers sound the same. They dont have to be big either. Small speakers can be compensated with a good sub, but the balance of sound would be the goal as a fundamental step to HT nirvana!!


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well. This weekend I'm going to audition some speakers. The Studio 20 is at the top of the list hopefully I can get a great deal. I will also listen to the GoldenEar Aon3 and Focal Chorus.


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

Update! I went to the dealer today and cam out with something completely different than what I set out to get! I purchased a pair of Revel M12 speakers. There was some back and fort about weather I could purchase a single speaker to use as a center so after much hesitation I purchased the C12 center.
What I will do is get a used M12 at some point and compare it against c12 as a center.
The dealer also thinks I should use the s12 as surrounds then go with M12's as rares.
He doesn't agree with the 5 matched speaker setup.


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## megageek (Oct 27, 2011)

If your amp is capable of putting out full range on all channels, then clearly a HT enthusiast would want to take advantage of that! I cant see how he wouldnt agree as it would be ideal for the best SQ.
Fast and furious 1 has a scene where the little black honda passes under the truck. The sound of the car passes across the front stage and is a good test to see if your center can produce the sound as well as your fronts do. Give it a go.


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

biach said:


> If your amp is capable of putting out full range on all channels, then clearly a HT enthusiast would want to take advantage of that! I cant see how he wouldnt agree as it would be ideal for the best SQ.
> Fast and furious 1 has a scene where the little black honda passes under the truck. The sound of the car passes across the front stage and is a good test to see if your center can produce the sound as well as your fronts do. Give it a go.


He thinks that the M12 bookshelf could get overwhelmed performing center duties. The C12 would be a better 
candidate for that job in his view.


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## megageek (Oct 27, 2011)

Well then ideal'y c12's all round!! Keep in mind this is an 'ideal' setup. Budget and wives usually get in the way tho!!


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

S. I've decided to go with 3 M12's across the front. I should have the additional speaker next week.
I have a question concerning the setting on the receiver for the front speakers.
Currently the auto EQ sets the M12 as "full Band" should I set it to THX (80HZ) or leave it full band?

I have also noticed that I like the sound of the setup more when the Audyssey is off so I'm wondering if with the EQ off is it looking at the screen with the cross-over settings. Can't seem to find a clear answer on that in the manual. I have an Onkyo TX-SR706.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Good choice with going all the same upfront as for the rear i really do not think it's much of an issue to switch things up (brands, models,etc).
I am with you on the Audessy thing, i don't use nor care for it i prefer to do my setup by ear.:T


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

OK. I'm running 3 M12's across the front. Nice!!!
Now for two more for the back. I recently
added a pair of Paradigm ADP to the rear and the improved
sound makes me want more. From what I'm hearing surrounds really do 
matter. I had some small cubes before the change and its a big difference.

now for this four sub thing??? Is anyone using subs on there rear channels?


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## megageek (Oct 27, 2011)

Yeh, totally agree about the surrounds! I had little book shelf surrounds and upgraded to big floor standing towers and the difference was night and day!! 
People that say you only need small surrounds should really have a listen to big ones!! 
About the sub, i dont think you need a sub for each channel, one big sub should be enough. I believe you should really go overkill on the sub. If you think your room needs a 15" monster, get 2!! Its the foundation of the sound so go nuts!


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

megageek said:


> Yeh, totally agree about the surrounds! I had little book shelf surrounds and upgraded to big floor standing towers and the difference was night and day!!
> People that say you only need small surrounds should really have a listen to big ones!!
> About the sub, i dont think you need a sub for each channel, one big sub should be enough. I believe you should really go overkill on the sub. If you think your room needs a 15" monster, get 2!! Its the foundation of the sound so go nuts!


The sub is pretty good now was just wondering about one for rear effects. 
At some point I will look for a higher quality one. I currently have a klipsch 12 inch. I might try for the Revel sub.


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## megageek (Oct 27, 2011)

You would need an amp that can spit out a dedicated sub channel for rear sub effects. Otherwise it would be the same sounds just from a different location in the room. Get 2 subs!! By all means!! I just dont think its really going to make a tangible difference to rear sq running a separate sub channel.


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

megageek said:


> You would need an amp that can spit out a dedicated sub channel for rear sub effects. Otherwise it would be the same sounds just from a different location in the room. Get 2 subs!! By all means!! I just dont think its really going to make a tangible difference to rear sq running a separate sub channel.


I'm the try it guy .

My though on how the hook up would be is to feed the surround channels through a powered sub
first (using the speaker inputs on the sub) then to the surround speakers. Then On my receiver I would set the speakers to "full band" that's what my receiver calls the setting to send full signal. If there is low frequency information there I want to hear it and I would imagine it's there on some of the Blu-ray movies.


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## megageek (Oct 27, 2011)

I think the problem there is the amps idea of 'full band' is anything above your sub crossover setting. If you have it set at 80hz, then full band is 80 and above. So if you set the sub crossover to 60hz, full band becomes 60 and above. Get it? 
You may have to set the subwoofer to 'off' and then run multiple subs as your suggesting. 
It seems like a good idea or at least a fun experiment! 
Of corse i could be entirely wrong and your amp sends full range to all channels but boosts sub frequency signals for the sub out.
Also any sub feequencies sent to the driver via the crossover in your subs amp will have been robbed from your rear speakers which (depending on speaker size) may affect rear sq again so settings on your subs crossover point will need to be balanced. 
Its probably a huge overcomplexity doing this so it may be better overall to just get a four 18" drivers mounted in your couch!!


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

megageek said:


> I think the problem there is the amps idea of 'full band' is anything above your sub crossover setting. If you have it set at 80hz, then full band is 80 and above. So if you set the sub crossover to 60hz, full band becomes 60 and above. Get it?
> You may have to set the subwoofer to 'off' and then run multiple subs as your suggesting.
> It seems like a good idea or at least a fun experiment!
> Of corse i could be entirely wrong and your amp sends full range to all channels but boosts sub frequency signals for the sub out.
> ...


I like the drivers in the couch idea.. LOL.

My amp I believe has the frequencies pretty good. It does have a 80Hz setting and a full band setting so full band really is full band. Another nice thing it does in full band mode is send bass information from the RL channels to the sub, it refers to that as "double bass" being on. 

Good point about using the sub's cross-over for filtering. I have dipoles for surrounds which I plan to change so I may get the sub first just to try. If I like what I hear I may opt for two small subs and feed them the surround channels pre-outs on my receiver and the speakers from receiver directly....hope that works ok...
My receiver has pre-outs for all channels.


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

Did a quick test with my current sub. I hooked it up to the surround pre-out just to hear. 
Questioned answered! There is definitely lots of surround information there that is missed with small
surround speakers and there is LF information there as well. 
I only tried it with Jurassic Park2 in blue-ray and I like what I hear!! I'm definitely getting a sub and 2 M12's for my surrounds. I had an extra sub and just got rid of it!! I can just kick myself. 

What I might do is move my KSW12 to the back and get something else to replace that but that's up in the air. Might just get a cheap used one for the back.


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## megageek (Oct 27, 2011)

Good stuff! Yeh, the bigger the better i say! If the frequencies are there, why not hear them??


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## megageek (Oct 27, 2011)

Im actually using towers with two 12" drivers in each, two 5" mids each and a dome tweeter each. The only thing lacking here is the tweeters, they're a bit poo but are easily replaced which is my plan. I'll get some nice silk dome ones!!


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## megageek (Oct 27, 2011)

Lets not forget here, a sub is called a sub because it reproduces frequencies bellow what the human ear can hear. So technically were not dealing with sub frequencies at all. 
Considering the driver sizes and power levels required to reproduce true sub frequencies, the 'home theater in a box' systems that the various brands sell do not have subwoofers technically. 
So the market has changed the definition of what a sub is. It is now a speaker that reproduces frequencies below the level at which the sound is directional ( around 150hz ). 
Personally id argue its a bit lower ( 80hz??) and could be different for everyone. 
Point being; if your reproducing frequencies from the rear that cannot be percieved as coming from that direction, its not a gain for surround duties. Surround speakers exist for this reason, and the frequencies they reproduce should be above the directional point. So the bigger the speaker that is not high passed in any way, the better.


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

megageek said:


> Good stuff! Yeh, the bigger the better i say! If the frequencies are there, why not hear them??


:T:T


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

greglett said:


> Did a quick test with my current sub. I hooked it up to the surround pre-out just to hear.
> Questioned answered! There is definitely lots of surround information there that is missed with small
> surround speakers and there is LF information there as well.
> I only tried it with Jurassic Park2 in blue-ray and I like what I hear!! I'm definitely getting a sub and 2 M12's for my surrounds. I had an extra sub and just got rid of it!! I can just kick myself.
> ...


I'm not sure I see the logic in dedicating a sub to the rears. If you set the sub crossover to bypass and set the AVR rear channel to 80hz, then all that bass you found on the rear channel would be redirected to the sub anyway as a function of the AVR bass management. You just need a sub (or even better: subs) capable of handling the combined bass of all 5 channels plus the LFE channel. Sounds below 80hz are non-localizable, meaning you can't tell very well which direction they come from. It may work well in your room to have one sub at the front and one in the back, but they do not need to be dedicated to front and rear effects. One signal for all bass can be split to feed both subs.


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

megageek said:


> Lets not forget here, a sub is called a sub because it reproduces frequencies bellow what the human ear can hear. So technically were not dealing with sub frequencies at all.
> Considering the driver sizes and power levels required to reproduce true sub frequencies, the 'home theater in a box' systems that the various brands sell do not have subwoofers technically.
> So the market has changed the definition of what a sub is. It is now a speaker that reproduces frequencies below the level at which the sound is directional ( around 150hz ).


Awesome point. If it can't go lower than 20hz, it's just a woofer, not a sub.


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## megageek (Oct 27, 2011)

phreak said:


> I'm not sure I see the logic in dedicating a sub to the rears. If you set the sub crossover to bypass and set the AVR rear channel to 80hz, then all that bass you found on the rear channel would be redirected to the sub anyway as a function of the AVR bass management. You just need a sub (or even better: subs) capable of handling the combined bass of all 5 channels plus the LFE channel. Sounds below 80hz are non-localizable, meaning you can't tell very well which direction they come from. It may work well in your room to have one sub at the front and one in the back, but they do not need to be dedicated to front and rear effects. One signal for all bass can be split to feed both subs.


I'd argue that sub frequencies are directional. You can feel where the rumble is coming from. The first time i played modern warfare with big surround speakers, all the bullets wizing past, footsteps sneaking up on me, planes flying over, rockets going off sounded instantly better, but when a grenade went off right behind me, i could physically feel it behind me as well as hear it! That extra level of immersion for me was priceless!! If a big sub was there, the feeling would be even greater.


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

megageek said:


> I'd argue that sub frequencies are directional. You can feel where the rumble is coming from.



You actually make the point here as to why I want the sub for the rear effects. I agree with you here.
Unless its a very low frequency you can tell the direction it's coming from. So if a low frequency is in
the rear that is below the range of the rare speakers I would like the rare sub to pick that up.


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## greglett (Dec 10, 2006)

megageek said:


> Lets not forget here, a sub is called a sub because it reproduces frequencies bellow what the human ear can hear. So technically were not dealing with sub frequencies at all.
> 
> I understand your point here but a sub doesn't only play low frequencies below what the human ear can here. They pick up where the regular woofers leave off.


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