# [Setup Help] New SVS PC-13U



## Flipmode (Jun 26, 2012)

*Background
I listen to a wide variety of music from Dance, Pop to Rock and Punk rock, no country, when it comes to bass I love
the sheer power and pounding. I was heavy into car audio in the past and with a family that had to go. With building 
a new house I have been working on my system as listed below. The PC-13U has replaced my Paradigm PS-12 which has been
a decent sub but it is about 15 years old and ready to retire. I do watch movies and appreicate hard pounding actions scenes.
I have read allot about the SVS subs and all reports claim this sub pounds hard hence why I purchased this sub. Unfortunatley
*I have not had the success of setting this up properly to feel the pound everyone raves about.*



*Equipment

Front Channel: Niles 760DS
Center Channel: Niles 760DSCI
Rear Channel: Niles 760 DSFX
Sub: SVS PC-13 Ultra
AVR: Denon 3808 CI
Blu-Ray: LG B200
Apple TV 2
HTPC



I read the Full SVS Manual and followed the quick guide settings
Basically keeping everything at default Volume Gain -20
I have ran the Auto Setup on my AVR-3808
It set the front, center and rear speakers to small with crossover at 250 by the system auto calibration
Sub was set to +1 by the system auto calibration

One thing I am not 100% sure on is I have 1 output for sub on my AVR and I used a Y-Adapter on the input of
my old sub to split the signal to use both L and R inputs. The SVS manual say to use only 1 so I used 1. I did
notice when I use the Y adapter is seems I gain extra db.

In the end I don't feel the pound that I was expecting so I am positive I need more work in setting this bad boy up.

I am hoping someone has a similar Amp, there are so many settings on the Amp I may have missed something.

Tonight I will try a differnt location for my PC-13 Ultra, currently it sits in the corner of the room.

Hopefully I provided enough info, if not let me know.

Thanks


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## steve1616 (Apr 6, 2009)

Location is very important, but my PB13-Ultra would be noticable almost anywhere. Make sure that you don't have both the AVR and the SUB's amp trying to cross over your sub. I play my sub a few decibels hot for movies. 

Go back and double check all the amps settings and the receiver's settings. I remember being slightly dissapointed with my sub at first. I moved it a foot, and changed the orientation and my sub was suddenly unbelievable.


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## Ed Mullen (Jul 28, 2006)

Flipmode said:


> Basically keeping everything at default Volume Gain -20. I have ran the Auto Setup on my AVR-3808. It set the front, center and rear speakers to small with crossover at 250 by the system auto calibration. Sub was set to +1 by the system auto calibration.


Turn the subwoofer trim level down to -12 (the lowest setting before the subwoofer shuts off). Then set the gain to 0 dB. The 0 dB setting will allow the amp to make the most peak dynamic power. 

The subwoofer will be running about 7 dB hotter in overall calibration level by this change (i.e., you came down 13 and went up 20). If at that point you need to reduce the sub level, do it at the subwoofer first, but only reduce it enough to achieve your desired level of bass and slam/impact/pressure. Running the sub a few dB hotter than the Audyssey level is common with customers, so maybe you'll only need to come down to -3 on the sub gain (which would be 4 dB hot).


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## Flipmode (Jun 26, 2012)

Ed Mullen said:


> Turn the subwoofer trim level down to -12 (the lowest setting before the subwoofer shuts off). Then set the gain to 0 dB. The 0 dB setting will allow the amp to make the most peak dynamic power.
> 
> The subwoofer will be running about 7 dB hotter in overall calibration level by this change (i.e., you came down 13 and went up 20). If at that point you need to reduce the sub level, do it at the subwoofer first, but only reduce it enough to achieve your desired level of bass and slam/impact/pressure. Running the sub a few dB hotter than the Audyssey level is common with customers, so maybe you'll only need to come down to -3 on the sub gain (which would be 4 dB hot).



Thanks for the reply!

Since my last post I read some of your replies stating to set the gain to 0 db and ran Audyssey and the sub trim level came out -12 db

I turned the gain down -7 db and ran Audyssey again and the sub trim level was still recording -12 db

This was all done with the Sub moved to from the corner of the room to the center of the room along side the wall. The bass never really filled the room properly, seemed that certain areas were really lacking bass. It still didn't seem to be perfomring like everyone states. I moved it back to the corner which helped fill the room better but I have yet to run Audyssey again to see the result but I am afraid it will want me to turn the gain down even more to be on the edge of the sub trim level of -12 db becuase of gaining extra db being in the corner. The above tests did make some improvements.

I ran through a variety of differnt music to get the feel, I'm still not feeling the love I thought I would. 
I'm thinking I might be expecting too much from a single sub. I know quite a few years back I heard a mirage sub on a HT system watching Batman and I couldn't believe at such a low volume and little bass would hit that hard, I am sure this sub should do that since technolgy has evolved.

I'm busy tonight but tomorrow night or this weekend I will pay around more, hopefully I can get it dialed in.


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## Ed Mullen (Jul 28, 2006)

Flipmode said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> Since my last post I read some of your replies stating to set the gain to 0 db and ran Audyssey and the sub trim level came out -12 db
> 
> ...


You are on the right track - the idea is to dial in as much gain at the amp as possible while still achieving a true level match (i.e., the sub channel level will come off the -12 floor at some point as you keep lowering the gain at the sub and re-running Audyssey). 

Once you find that optimal combination of sub gain and AVR sub trim level, if you want to run the sub hotter (which is perfectly fine), add gain at the subwoofer first instead of bumping up the sub channel level in the AVR. This method will maximize the peak power output of the amp and allow the sub to perform its best at high playback levels. 

Also be sure to check that all the dynamic range compression circuits are disabled in the AVR. And double check your sub menu to make sure the low pass, PEQ, and room gain controls are all bypassed/disabled. The 20 Hz mode on the sub with all ports open will be the most muscular and powerful on most source material - so start there first.


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## Flipmode (Jun 26, 2012)

Ok Sub gain set at -10, Audyssey calculated sub trim level -7.5 db

Sub trim level from -7.5 db to -12 db = -2.5 db round off to -3 db
Sub Gain to run 4 db hot
Add 7 db to Sub gain

So Sub gain from -10 db add 7 db

Final outcome -3 db on Sub Gain with -12 Sub Level Trim on Amp

Sounding better at low to mid range volume, high volume I am not sure what terminology to use but it sounds like it starts dropping off and starts fluttering or losing control.

I might be at the point where I may need some measuring equipment to tune this thing further. Room Compensation? PEQ?


On a side note what should my Amp crossover settings be? I have read that with speakers on small front, centre and rear should be set to 80 Hz (Audyssey set them between 200 Hz to 250 Hz), 
sub set to LFE and the Amp shows the Sub crossover at 80 Hz. Is this correct or should I make some adjustments to these settings?


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## Sycraft (May 21, 2009)

Flipmode said:


> On a side note what should my Amp crossover settings be? I have read that with speakers on small front, centre and rear should be set to 80 Hz (Audyssey set them between 200 Hz to 250 Hz),
> sub set to LFE and the Amp shows the Sub crossover at 80 Hz. Is this correct or should I make some adjustments to these settings?


That sounds like your problem right there. What kind of speakers do you have? I am presuming they are very small, cube type, speakers. In that case, they do indeed need to be crossed up in the 200Hz+ range.

The 80Hz recommendation comes for people with large speakers, not small ones. For example I've got big tower speakers. My receiver doesn't want to cross them by default, it says they can have a full range signal. However that really isn't the best way to do things, I get better sound by setting them to small and crossing them over to the sub.

So what people are recommending is "If your speakers are set to cross lower than 80Hz, cross them at 80Hz anyhow."

Now if you have small speakers, you need to cross them higher. They can't handle the bass and you have to send it to the sub. If your speakers drop off at around 200Hz and your sub doesn't pick up until 80Hz you've got over an octave uncovered, so no wonder bass is anemic.

If you have larger speakers that should handle lower bass then you should look and see what the problem is.

At any rate try the higher crossover, see if that clears stuff up.


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## Flipmode (Jun 26, 2012)

Sycraft said:


> What kind of speakers do you have?


Thanks for the response, I have already lowered the crossover on the main speakers to 90 Hz for now.

*Fronts Left and Right Niles Audio, Look at the 760DS Model*
7" Woofer in which they say its good down to 48 Hz

*Center Left and Right Niles Audio,760DSC Model*
7" Woofer in which they say its good down to 48 Hz

*Rear Left and Right Niles Audio, Look at the 760DSFX Model*
7" Woofer in which they say its good down to 52 Hz

I am getting the the REW up and running on my Laptop so I can get some real time graphs.


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## leenorm1 (May 7, 2012)

Hi I have noticed in your post that the amp is set to LFE from what I can remember the denon amps allow you to set it to lfe+main I would recommend doing this and setting all crossovers to 80 hz and speakers to small set the sub trim on the amp to 0 and dial in the sub to your preferred taste.


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## Biovision (Nov 10, 2011)

Setting up the Denon is EXTREMELY important to produce the bass you want.

Play around with the different options.

Also realize that some options won't even be displayed if you have another option turned off (ie Audyssey turned off)


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## Flipmode (Jun 26, 2012)

Thanks for the replies!

What would be the main difference going from LFE to
LFE+main? Wouldn't LFE be suffice?

I do have Auddessy turn on and ran the setup. 

I have been reading up more on subwoofer position
In the room and I think possibly the design and power
Of this sub it might not be in the ideal position as my 
Last sub, as I move around the room I notice differences
In the sound which I ran REW and 6 different locations
And I am surprised how different it can be. 

One question still remains from my original post and I hope
Ed can chime in. Is it benifical to use a Y adapter to the
Input on the sub? I do notice a gain in sub output but I do 
Not know if this is correct, the manul says just to plug it into
One input. 

I will post some graphs later when I get home. 

From what I have read if you have a peak you can bring it
Down with the PEQ gtanted it's not to crazy but if you have 
a drastic dip the PEQ will not be effective due to modes?


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## leenorm1 (May 7, 2012)

Lfe just plays Lfe signal or the .1 in a soundtrack or film whereas Lfe and main plays signal from all speakers and Lfe. Boosting a dip is okay it depends whether it's a phase indifference or a natural dip.


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## Ed Mullen (Jul 28, 2006)

Flipmode said:


> Thanks for the replies!
> 
> What would be the main difference going from LFE to
> LFE+main? Wouldn't LFE be suffice?
> ...


A Y splitter will add 6 dB to the subwoofer calibration level. The same effect can be created by increasing the subwoofer channel level by 6 dB. A Y splitter will not increase subwoofer power or performance of course - it simply doubles the input voltage. So you don't need one, but the subwoofer still needs to be level matched with the speakers.

The LFE setting means the subwoofer plays the LFE channel and any redirected bass from any speaker channels being bass managed (i.e., not set to full range). 

If the mains are set to full-range, then the subwoofer will not be sent any bass information from the front L/R channels, unless you select LFE+Mains. In that event, the subwoofer is sent the bass information for the front L/R channels, even though they are set to full-range. While this ensures that you won't miss anything in these channels which is below the LF limits of the speakers, it also often results in bloated/tubby bass because the mains and the subwoofer are playing the same bass down to the point where the mains roll-off.

Whether or not large towers should be set to full-range or bass managed really depends on the sophistication of the digital bass management program in the AVR. Some AVRs allow separate speaker crossover crossover frequencies for each speaker channel (even extending down to 40 Hz). In cases like this every speaker channel should be bass managed and crossed over to the subwoofer at a frequency appropriate for its bass extension and dynamic output capabilities. 

OTOH if the AVR only offers a global speaker/sub crossover frequency which affects all channels, then the crossover selected must be protective of the smallest speakers in the system (typically the surrounds). If the system has large bass-capable towers, most users consider it to be a waste of speaker capability to cross them over at 80 Hz (or w/e is appropriate for all the other speaker channels). In that case, the user can experiment by running them on full-range with LFE+Main selected vs. bass managing them along with the other speakers. Or he can simply upgrade his AVR. :spend:


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## Biovision (Nov 10, 2011)

Ed,

In my opinion that was a very clear answer to complex and often confusing subject.

Thanks for all you do.


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## Vader (Jul 8, 2006)

Quick level calibration question,

For some reason, when I ran Audyssey it set the satellite speaker levels to 70dB, as opposed to 75dB. I have the gain on my PC13Us both set to -10, and the AVR trim ended up at -9. Using an SPL meter (Galaxy CM-140), I level matched the subs (only needing a 1dB boost). My understanding is that SPL meters tend to read around 2-3dB low below about 100 Hz. So, can I conclude that, since they are level matched according to the SPL meter, the subs are actually running 2-3dB hot?


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## Ed Mullen (Jul 28, 2006)

Vader said:


> Quick level calibration question,
> 
> For some reason, when I ran Audyssey it set the satellite speaker levels to 70dB, as opposed to 75dB. I have the gain on my PC13Us both set to -10, and the AVR trim ended up at -9. Using an SPL meter (Galaxy CM-140), I level matched the subs (only needing a 1dB boost). My understanding is that SPL meters tend to read around 2-3dB low below about 100 Hz. So, can I conclude that, since they are level matched according to the SPL meter, the subs are actually running 2-3dB hot?


That is correct. The extent to which an SPL meter reads low on the rumble tone really depends on the spectral content of the tone itself. If you look at the C-weighted correction factors, they are minor/small in the upper bass regions and become progressively larger at deeper frequencies (4-7 dB @ 18-25 Hz). So it's an educated guesstimate that a C-weighted SPL meter will read 2-3 dB low on a given rumble tone. 

It's probably not too far off from reality, but again the spectral content of the actual rumble tone will determine the actual SPL error from a C-weighted perspective. And that doesn't take into account additional SPL errors of the meter itself, above/beyond the theoretical c-weighted correction factors. For example at 20 Hz, the theoretical c-weighted correction factor is -6.22 dB. Whether or not a given c-weighted SPL meter actually reads that low at 20 Hz is another story - it might read 5.5 dB low or it might read 7.5 dB low (or exhibit even greater deviation).


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## Vader (Jul 8, 2006)

Thx, Ed!


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