# So its the age old ? "run the speaker smalll"?



## Homethrstud (May 28, 2011)

I've read everywhere to run your speaker as small. A little info on my equipment. I have two teenage boys so I have to save and build my equipment a little at a time. I have Paradigm Monitor 11's and a CC-390 up front and 4 ADP-390's for surrounds. My subwoofer is a DSP-3400. My receiver is an OLD Yamaha 5790 that doesn't have HDMI inputs nor can it do HD sound.

I have played with the setting over and over again and when the fronts are set to small they are just that small. They do not sound good at all with zero bass. People's voices sound thin with the center on small. My crossover is set to 80 and I still feel that the system is held back by my sub $500 receiver. I also think my DSP would perform better if I was running HDMI with HD sound. It digs deep but it lacks the punch I know it can produce.

My next step is to purchase a receiver, but finding the one I want is a daunting task. I definitely want one with pre-outs so I can run a amplifier. 

So I guess the question is small or large? I run the fronts large and the surrounds small with the bass set to subwoofer and the crossover at 80. It just doesn't sound good set to small. It sounds held back more than it already does with my non-HD, non-HDMI receiver.


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## megageek (Oct 27, 2011)

IMHO i believe all speakers in a surround system should be the same, whether they be small or large. Its the only real way to assure a balanced sound all around the room. So no matter where the sound goes it sounds the same. More often than not, people use big main speakers and small surrounds and centers which is like listening to stereo music with one big speaker and one small one, its just not balanced. I use an onkyo amp with no hdmi's also but all my speakers are floorstanding big boys ( two 12" woofers in each speaker!! ). The sound is intense and a helicopter flying round the room sounds the same wherever it goes! Also i built my own sub with two 12" drivers and a 600w amp to keep up with all the big speakers. This setup


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Homethrstud said:


> I've read everywhere to run your speaker as small. A little info on my equipment. I have two teenage boys so I have to save and build my equipment a little at a time. I have Paradigm Monitor 11's and a CC-390 up front and 4 ADP-390's for surrounds. My subwoofer is a DSP-3400. My receiver is an OLD Yamaha 5790 that doesn't have HDMI inputs nor can it do HD sound.
> 
> I have played with the setting over and over again and when the fronts are set to small they are just that small. They do not sound good at all with zero bass. People's voices sound thin with the center on small. My crossover is set to 80 and I still feel that the system is held back by my sub $500 receiver. I also think my DSP would perform better if I was running HDMI with HD sound. It digs deep but it lacks the punch I know it can produce.
> 
> ...


Hello,
The best value AVR I can think of that meets your criteria is the Onkyo TX-NR709 which is currently available at Accessories4less for $479. I really think the addition of Audyssey MultEQ XT will help bring out the best of your excellent Speaker Array.

With Paradigm's Resale Value being what it is (amazing), you might want to consider trying to sell the DSP-3400 and getting a HSU Research VTF-2 MKIII. The HSU is simply an amazing value and will offer a good bit more Bass and will go lower and play louder than your current Subwoofer.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Homethrstud (May 28, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> The best value AVR I can think of that meets your criteria is the Onkyo TX-NR709 which is currently available at Accessories4less for $479. I really think the addition of Audyssey MultEQ XT will help bring out the best of your excellent Speaker Array.
> 
> With Paradigm's Resale Value being what it is (amazing), you might want to consider trying to sell the DSP-3400 and getting a HSU Research VTF-2 MKIII. The HSU is simply an amazing value and will offer a good bit more Bass and will go lower and play louder than your current Subwoofer.
> ...


I just bought the sub brand new for $640 and it's discontinued. My budget will be around 1 to 2k for a new receiver. I'm planing on adding a HSU VTF-15 to go along with my DSP. I was looking at getting an ONkyo 3008 or
3009. Like I said though its a little at a time. I still have to pay off the sub and 2 of the surrounds. 

The sound stage is the same all around because all the speakers are all matching, and you can't get much bigger than my CC-390.

My real question was about running ten small or large.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
If you are not pleased with the SQ when XO'ed to 80hz, it seems running at least the Mains Full Range is worth trying. It is strange that Vocals sound so weak when set at 80hz as Dialogue is at a much higher frequency. 80hz is getting into midbass.

Have you moved around your Subwoofer to optimize location. Also, do you have an SPL Meter for Calibrating your Speaker Levels? The 3008 or 3009 would make for a fantastic upgrade over your current setup. I cannot be happier with the 3008 and I cannot believe just how much of an Upgrade Audyssey XT32/SubEQ HT truly are. Even over MultEQ XT.
Cheers,
JJ


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## PT800 (Feb 19, 2008)

Homethrstud said:


> I just bought the sub brand new for $640 and it's discontinued. My budget will be around 1 to 2k for a new receiver. I'm planing on adding a HSU VTF-15 to go along with my DSP. I was looking at getting an ONkyo 3008 or
> 3009. Like I said though its a little at a time. I still have to pay off the sub and 2 of the surrounds.
> 
> The sound stage is the same all around because all the speakers are all matching, and you can't get much bigger than my CC-390.
> ...


Cutting off the 11s to 80 htz will lose some of the mid-bass. But it also sounds like you don't have your sub in the ultimate location, so you are not getting proper integration between the M11s and the sub. 
It might also be that your room is too big for a single bass source, thus with the M11s and sub producing bass below 80 htz you're getting more bass energy.

If you have a spl meter, place the sub at the main seat location. Then run pink noise through the sub, while doing the "crawl test" and find the location where the meter reads the highest. That is where you want to place your sub. 
Then listen to the system, with the M11s set to "large" and then "small" to tell if there is an improvement when set to small.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Homethrstud said:


> They do not sound good at all with zero bass. People's voices sound thin with the center on small. My crossover is set to 80hz


Voices and an 80hz crossover just doesn't make sense to me. The lowest of bass voices are considered to be about E2, which has a fundamental frequency of 82.5hz. Small or large, there really should be minimal contribution in this range from a sub with a crossover point at 80hz, which means it is 6db down at 80hz as well as the speaker (although in most cases the speaker is only 2 to 3db down)

Realistically, I think there's something else wrong, and it sounds like it's just the nature of your center. If voices sound thin i'd try moving the center closer to boundaries.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Are the main speakers in phase with the sub?


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## Homethrstud (May 28, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> If you are not pleased with the SQ when XO'ed to 80hz, it seems running at least the Mains Full Range is worth trying. It is strange that Vocals sound so weak when set at 80hz as Dialogue is at a much higher frequency. 80hz is getting into midbass.
> 
> Have you moved around your Subwoofer to optimize location. Also, do you have an SPL Meter for Calibrating your Speaker Levels? The 3008 or 3009 would make for a fantastic upgrade over your current setup. I cannot be happier with the 3008 and I cannot believe just how much of an Upgrade Audyssey XT32/SubEQ HT truly are. Even over MultEQ XT.
> ...


I don't have an SPL meter but I need one that's for sure. Where is a good place to pick one up, radio shack?


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Homethrstud said:


> I don't have an SPL meter but I need one that's for sure. Where is a good place to pick one up, radio shack?


Order a Galaxy SPL meter online.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

You can get the Galaxy CM140 here


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## Homethrstud (May 28, 2011)

PT800 said:


> Cutting off the 11s to 80 htz will lose some of the mid-bass. But it also sounds like you don't have your sub in the ultimate location, so you are not getting proper integration between the M11s and the sub.
> It might also be that your room is too big for a single bass source, thus with the M11s and sub producing bass below 80 htz you're getting more bass energy.
> 
> If you have a spl meter, place the sub at the main seat location. Then run pink noise through the sub, while doing the "crawl test" and find the location where the meter reads the highest. That is where you want to place your sub.
> Then listen to the system, with the M11s set to "large" and then "small" to tell if there is an improvement when set to small.


I don't have a meter yet and I have not found the ideal spot for the sub. My living room is extremely large with 14 foot cathedral ceilings. My kitchen an dinning room is connected to the living room with a open floor plan.


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## Homethrstud (May 28, 2011)

Here is a picture of my setup before I picked up the sub.










This was right after I hooked the speakers up so the wire are not neat and the sub is not in the picture.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Make sure that the front and center channels are both set to the same size setting.


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## Homethrstud (May 28, 2011)

lcaillo said:


> Make sure that the front and center channels are both set to the same size setting.


I have them both set to large.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
If I was to do it over again, I would order a Galaxy. However, I picked up a Radio Shack one over a decade ago.
Cheers,
JJ


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Homethrstud said:


> I have them both set to large.


When you were trying "small" did you have BOTH set to small?


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## Homethrstud (May 28, 2011)

lcaillo said:


> When you were trying "small" did you have BOTH set to small?


Fronts and center are set to small


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

Having the same fronts and center, I can say that nothing should sound thin. If setting to small yields such bad results, your sub is inadequate for the room or need DSP assistance. A receiver like the 3008 will be great for that with SubEQ, or PBK for $100 would do a lot in this area. Adding both the 3008 and the HSU would definitely produce the results you are looking for, but :spendy:


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Usually with older AVR/SSP's, Bass Management is pretty spartan with settings being Large (Full Range) or Small (80hz). This is in contrast to modern AVR/SSP's where Bass Management can be set per Channel anywhere from Full Range, 40hz, 60hz, 80hz, on up to 150hz or so.

Even worse are those that set the Small to higher to 80hz where the Subwoofer is active in frequencies where it really is not advantageous. On the flip side, if using small Satellite Speakers that only go down to say 150hz, if the XO for Small is strictly 80hz, you are going to have a rather large hole in the Frequency Range.
Cheers,
JJ


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

I'd say run them the way they sound best. In most of my rooms in various houses I have run my mains full range, crossed at 40 Hz and crossed at 60 Hz. Like you, my speakers just don't sound their best when cross over is set at 80 Hz. There is no law requiring you to run them small and crossed at 80  Play around with different settings and leave it where it sounds best.


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

nova said:


> Play around with different settings and leave it where it sounds best.


Wise advice


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## Gregr (Nov 2, 2010)

Hmthtrstd

I like what others are say and esp because you appear to see the value already. Granteed and JJ have the digital world and old school but when Granteed suggested a problem with the Ctr. I thought..., take this old school. 

Maybe you need to start at step one. Your front speakers need placing about 7' apart to begin to get a feel for their real sound separate from Ctr, sub and surround. At about 7' apart I toe my speakers about 5 to 7 degrees in. The left front points to the left couch cushion and right points to the right couch cushion. I have a great sound stage from using this stratagy. Now with your speakers at approx 7' try sliding them together a few inches at a time or move apart inches at a time. In either case move them closer or further until you hear the best sound stage open from the focal seat. 

You might try turning off all other speakers except the fronts. When you find the best placement it will be difficulty to identify from which speaker the sound emanates from. You have great speakers and your sound stage will fill the front of the room nicely. At this point the Ctr channel will pin point dialog and other sound info very well from almost anywhere between the two fronts. Hope this helps.

Greg


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## Homethrstud (May 28, 2011)

Gregr said:


> Hmthtrstd
> 
> I like what others are say and esp because you appear to see the value already. Granteed and JJ have the digital world and old school but when Granteed suggested a problem with the Ctr. I thought..., take this old school.
> 
> ...


Thanks Greg! My speakers are about 7 feet apart and towed inward towards my main listening position. My front soundstage is great, but I really think my receiver is holding the speakers back. I can't wait till I'm able to buy one that decodes True HD DD and has HDMI inputs. I have to take one step at a time.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Good advice so far, and I will echo the suggestions to:
- check (and double check) phase of all speakers
- looks like that sub has a 0/180 phase switch which isn't as good as a continuously adjustable knob, but it will help to have in the right place. Set it where it sounds best.
- find the right location for your sub, it can make a world of difference.
- Gregr's advice to optimize your speaker setup is great too, those big speakers may just need some room.

I have Paradigm Monitor 7's as my mains, and a CC370 Centre. I run them all large because I just like the way it sounds better, and since my subwoofers are powered by a switchable wall outlet and its easy for me to flick them on or off, I don't always use them for TV or low level listening. Having the mains set to large provides enough bass, while having them set to small would mean I need to turn the subs on all the time. You have an awesome setup with those speakers, and while I haven't heard that sub, it looks nice too. 

I think in your search for a new receiver, make sure you look for one that has adjustable crossover settings for each channel, that way you can keep the surrounds at 80Hz or so, and run your mains down to 20 or 30Hz if you want. Or you can just let the automatic room correction (Audissey, etc.) set everything for you. I'm in the same boat as you, with an old receiver, and I still have good sound, so unless you need HDMI switching, you may not need to rush into something new (pay off the speakers first). My only last thought is that you want to make sure the Monitor 11's are getting enough power to run full range, and if your current receiver is a little weak, that may be a factor. Just deal with this when you do decide to upgrade.


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