# CS 18.T Duo Series 2



## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

I had a (very small) hand in the concept of the 18.T Duo's, and now I finally have a pair! 

I am still dialing these in, I have had about all of 30-40 minutes of time with them cranked. Right out of the box, they are killing my once well integrated MFW-15.

The rest of the time has been low volume television with the subs calling NO attention to themselves, just a well rounded listening/viewing experience.

Friends and family think I am nuts for wanting more than the MFW-15 could provide, and I wondered myself, do I really NEED anymore??? The short answer is... YES, it is already a big improvement in every way. Tonight, I will be doing the movie experience with my girlfriend and dialing it in a bit more. To think that it will get even better as it breaks in and as I play with placement and the PEQ leaves me kind of excited.

Pictures to come...


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

I set these up to front fire, waiting on metal grills which I think will look boss.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

#3 reserved for pictures and measurements.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

I invited some friends over last night that are familiar with my former setup, for an all night DVD concert experience.

A Perfect Circle: aMotion DVD
Gorillaz: Demon Days LIVE DVD
DIO: Holy Diver LIVE DVD
Tool: Undertow CD

My biggest fear was ported vs. sealed. I really don't care what anyone says about the MFW-15, that sub rocked for me, I have a lot of respect for that design. Was my open floor plan going to accommodate a sealed sub the way it took to the ported? Fortunately, I appear to have decent room gain.

No worries there. I have been playing with the levels, XO setting, bass boost on, subsonic off and the phase a bit to bring the subs in line with my modest B&W's. No PEQ as of yet, I have done my best to take it out of the picture as of now, the PEQ settings are neutral, I believe.

I was hitting 108db peaks with the MFW-15. Tonight I hit 111db peaks with the CS 18.T's. The limit here is the B&W's, I can easily override them with the Duo's. Because of my monitors mere 90db sensitivity, and aided by the room gain, I very rarely hit the half power red light indicator on the SA1000. I just didn't need the power to keep up with the monitors. At the volumes I was hitting, I really didn't feel anything was lacking, either.

My friends were impressed with the difference they heard and felt over the MFW-15 from the get go. As the night wore on, I went back and forth with the settings, one at a time, and let the sub get a good workout as well. About halfway through the night, I let the settings ride and just enjoyed the show(s). Maybe it is me, maybe it is the subs (probably both), but as the night wore on, I felt the drivers/amp were "breaking in", things were settling nicely and I felt that I didn't need to adjust settings further, for now.

Will it get better? Yes, I still need to take the simple measurements I can muster (RS SPL meter and test tones) and apply the PEQ to what I see.

Did I have fun my first night with the CS 18.T Duo? :bigsmile:


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

> I felt the drivers/amp were "breaking in"


Depending on how stiff the suspension originally is they will loosen up after using them awhile. I noticed a difference in low end out put after my IXL-18's were "extremely tested" :whistling: with test tones.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Mike P. said:


> Depending on how stiff the suspension originally is they will loosen up after using them awhile. I noticed a difference in low end out put after my IXL-18's were "extremely tested" :whistling: with test tones.


What can be fun is when the room itself "breaks in". I have buzzes that I have to chase down and try to eliminate. Sometimes the wall, cabinet or whatever it was just kind of settles down on it's own and is no longer a problem. :dumbcrazy:


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

tesseract said:


> ... I really don't care what anyone says about the MFW-15, that sub rocked for me ...
> 
> My friends were impressed with the difference they heard and felt over the MFW-15 from the get go. ...
> 
> Did I have fun my first night with the CS 18.T Duo? :bigsmile:


A buddy of mine moved from an MFW-15 to the CS 18.1T Duo not too long ago. As good as the MFW was - and it was good! - the 18.1T Duo destroyed it. Bigger, fuller, more powerful bass overall; tight and precise, but ready to POUND when called upon. :hsd:

Another friend and I were most impressed by what we heard in our buddy's set-up. Needless to say, our buddy is very happy. :T

And I'm very seriously considering the upcoming versions of the 18.1T Duo.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

eljay said:


> A buddy of mine moved from an MFW-15 to the CS 18.1T Duo not too long ago. As good as the MFW was - and it was good! - the 18.1T Duo destroyed it. Bigger, fuller, more powerful bass overall; tight and precise, but ready to POUND when called upon. :hsd:


The mere 3db SPL increase I have (before further tweaking, I just got started and expect more) doesn't begin to indicate just how much the CS 18.T's destroy the MFW-15. 

What the RS meter doesn't tell us us is how much lower am I going now? It subjectively feels like a whole 'nother octave, and I was hitting 17hz with the MFW-15! :gulp:


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## engtaz (Jul 9, 2010)

Great review. Thanks


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

The MFW-15 is very articulate, and I have no qualms saying months of work integrating the MFW-15 gave it slight advantages at the beginning. The 18.T's midbass was a little congested at first, but the ultra lows are very defined without that tendency. I think it would be fair to say that the congestion is a product of room placement. The 18.T's are doing a better job overall, I just need to give them due diligence. 

The 18.T seems, for lack of a better term, more subtle... it seems cleaner. But then it comes along out of nowhere and WHAM! Tight and clean with no overhang. I can't wait to play with the PEQ, just need some simple measurements to point me in the right direction. 

It has been a long time, but I remember the bass my sealed Acoustic Research TSW610's gave me way back when. I think that I am once again getting used to the difference between ported and sealed, the sealed being more "subtle" as I said before. My B&W mains sound more clear, this is a very good sign.


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## engtaz (Jul 9, 2010)

As the break in they with clean up even more. Congrats again.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks, Engtaz. Now I just need to get off my duff, measure my room and reduce the size of my pics so I can post them. :doh:


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## engtaz (Jul 9, 2010)

I will swear by a SMS-1. I am still asking my self why I waited so long to get it. It took care of my rooms issues that I thought I was stuck with forever. Get a SMS-1 or equivalent and you will be blow away with the sound of a room correctly setup for your subs.
Have fun and enjoy.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

engtaz said:


> I will swear by a SMS-1. I am still asking my self why I waited so long to get it. It took care of my rooms issues that I thought I was stuck with forever. Get a SMS-1 or equivalent and you will be blow away with the sound of a room correctly setup for your subs.
> Have fun and enjoy.


Engtaz, I just logged on here to complain about how tedious taking test tone/SPL meter readings are, and I found your post. You are correct, I need a BMS to help with this.

I am used to crunching numbers and data points, but this is just too much. I am going to have to try downloading some test tones, I am using the Onix R-DES test tones disc and I would like to see if another series of tones reads out the same way.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

The most difficult part about this is making the adjustments to the XO and level, then having to run tones again. I don't run them all again, just the ones I am trying to affect. 

This weekend I should do a bass crawl around my room to speed this up. I am stuck with this method as a BMS isn't in the budget for a while.


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## engtaz (Jul 9, 2010)

Yes, I too know about budgets and how they make you wait for toys. Good luck and remember to enjoy the journey.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Post #2 pictures added. :sn:


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## Korotkoff (Mar 6, 2011)

tesseract said:


> I had a (very small) hand in the concept of the 18.


What kind of speaker?


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## engtaz (Jul 9, 2010)

Love the setup. Great pic Post #2. What a beast of a sub.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

engtaz said:


> Love the setup. Great pic Post #2. What a beast of a sub.


Thanks, Engtaz. Took me a few years to get this far, now for a bass management system. :T

I need to move my mains and/or the subs. I do have the B&W's sitting too close to the subs, this causes diffraction off the top. The purpose of the little pink guy on the left is to absorb some of that. That and the fact he has been a fixture in all of my main systems for the last 12 years or so. I can come home from a crazy day and tell him about it... and he understands. :coocoo:


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Dennis - It's great to see your CS-18.T package has made your system better. You have worked towards this for a long time, and you deserve the best bass we can give you !! :T


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Korotkoff said:


> What kind of speaker?


Welcome to HTS, Korotkoff! :wave:

The speaker I am referring to is the Chase Home Theater CS 18.T Duo, the dual subwoofer system that is the focus of this thread. I added pictures to the second post, in case anybody missed those. :sn:


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

craigsub said:


> Dennis - It's great to see your CS-18.T package has made your system better. You have worked towards this for a long time, and you deserve the best bass we can give you !! :T


Craig, my friend, thank you. Part of the fun is watching movies and seeing the reactions of family and friends. They get the same silly speed grin that I do! :bigsmile: 

Last night, a friend told me that the theaters have NOTHING on my bass.


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## gorb (Sep 5, 2010)

Fantastic looking setup - the little pink guy is cute. Do you plan on upgrading your speakers to ones that can keep up with the subs?

I'd love to have a pair (or even just one) of those but it's not feasible for me right now...plus I think they'd destroy my house


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

gorb said:


> Fantastic looking setup - the little pink guy is cute. Do you plan on upgrading your speakers to ones that can keep up with the subs?
> 
> I'd love to have a pair (or even just one) of those but it's not feasible for me right now...plus I think they'd destroy my house


Thanks, Gorb. I do plan on upgrading my speakers someday, maybe this fall. The B&W 602S3's are ok for now, movies are great, music could be better.

Looking at B&W 805S, CHT PRO-10, AudioKinesis Rhythm Prism or GR Research N3's.

I know, the B&W's and the GR's still won't keep up, but I think I can make that compromise. I am a 2 channel guy. :coocoo:


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

At the listening position with music (Korn), 12 ft. away, all speakers are on the same plane.

B&W's are 90db/2.83V, 1 meter and are the limiting factor here. Feeding them 100 watts @ 4 ohms. This should give me 110db @ 1 meter from them.

I am barely lighting up the subwoofer Dayton amp half power light here. Still, I am running my subs a little hot in comparison to the mains. :yikes:

I also need to find another spot for my CDP, it is skipping despite the Vibrapods underneath. This wasn't a problem before the dual 18's!


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## engtaz (Jul 9, 2010)

That sure wakes up the neighbors.


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## gorb (Sep 5, 2010)

tesseract said:


> I also need to find another spot for my CDP, it is skipping despite the Vibrapods underneath. This wasn't a problem before the dual 18's!


Change your source to a computer (rip to flac, of course )with SSDs instead of regular drives, no vibration worries


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

gorb said:


> Change your source to a computer (rip to flac, of course )with SSDs instead of regular drives, no vibration worries


All I have right now is a desktop in an adjoining room. Besides, I wouldn't be able to play my DVD-A or SACD's, my player is a Marantz universal and facilitates that. Someday, I want to get a system specific laptop or HTPC and some massive HD's for storage. I'll still keep the Marantz around, it sounds really nice.

I just need to shuffle the gear around in my stand and see if another shelf isolates the player better.


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## BlueSpark1 (Feb 22, 2010)

tesseract said:


> I invited some friends over last night that are familiar with my former setup, for an all night DVD concert experience.
> 
> A Perfect Circle: aMotion DVD
> Gorillaz: Demon Days LIVE DVD
> ...


I am looking forward to the same kind of fun...I have four MFW-15's that I am sell off to move up to the Duo's...I am glad to read your positive feedback on the CS 18.T's...best of luck...


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

BlueSpark1 said:


> I am looking forward to the same kind of fun...I have four MFW-15's that I am sell off to move up to the Duo's...I am glad to read your positive feedback on the CS 18.T's...best of luck...


Thanks BlueSpark. The 18.1's dig lower and sound better than the MFW-15's, you are in for a treat.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Now that the subs are pretty well broken in, I have been playing around placement. I moved the subs to the outsides of my mains which places them in the corners.

Saturday, did some final shuffling around of the mains and the subs, little increments here and there. I reset my level, the XO, dialed in a bit of cut on the PEQ and decided to use the bass boost EQ, remeasured. It was late in the evening, so we watched a movie at lower volume and then went to bed. It sounded really good, noticeably improved over the previous configuration.

Sunday early evening, eager to hear how well it would do at higher volumes, I let it rip.

The bass is dialed in just right, to the point it makes you feel a little ill at max volume. I enjoyed 3 songs and then sat down here at the computer in another room and logged on.

The doorbell rings, it is the police. 5:30 pm. I have lived here for 3 years, cranked it up at night a few times, never had the cops here before. I guess the improvement was felt and heard elsewhere, too. 

Sheeesh.


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## engtaz (Jul 9, 2010)

Congrats on the subs breaking in. Definitely a all around better sound. Sorry about the Police but I know you enjoyed it.


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## BlueSpark1 (Feb 22, 2010)

tesseract said:


> Thanks BlueSpark. The 18.1's dig lower and sound better than the MFW-15's, you are in for a treat.


Great...I am looking forward to the "Perma-Grin"  that comes with those treats...LOL thx again...


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

What size is your room, BlueSpark1?


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## gorb (Sep 5, 2010)

tesseract said:


> The bass is dialed in just right, to the point it makes you feel a little ill at max volume. I enjoyed 3 songs and then sat down here at the computer in another room and logged on.
> 
> The doorbell rings, it is the police. 5:30 pm. I have lived here for 3 years, cranked it up at night a few times, never had the cops here before. I guess the improvement was felt and heard elsewhere, too.
> 
> Sheeesh.


lol! What did the police have to say? What can they even do, considering the time and it really couldn't be THAT loud outside of the house? At least I think it couldn't be that loud, I've never experienced a high end subwoofer system from the outside of a house


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

I called my nearest neighbor, we are friends. He said it wasn't them, I don't know who else could possibly be bothered by it. Across the street and inside their house is the only other neighbor that I have that would be bothered by it. You wouldn't think it would be that loud. :huh: Oh well.

The policewoman was nice about it and all. I asked about the noise ordinance law and the times that jamming out is allowed. She said if it is bothering someone, it isn't ok, no matter the time.

I am going to check further into it, that was news to me. I also have an SPL meter, if it happens again, I'll take a few readings with the police there to witness.


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## gorb (Sep 5, 2010)

Yeah, that's fairly ridiculous and most likely untrue...you could use that to say any kind of noise is bothering you and have the cops out there. Waste of time and resources that should be better spent elsewhere. My impression is that the neighbor who complained is a baby and the cop unfortunately doesn't know what she's talking about, so let us know what you find out. I'll look into my own noise ordinances whenever I manage to get some subs. But yes, you should measure the SPL outside your house because I am kind of interested in that


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Ok, they were here again, 8:00 pm. :hsd:

Two cops this time, one asked what I had in the house thumping away like that. I told him dual 18's. He asked "Are they Pioneers?" :rofl2: I told them that I was checking out new subs and posting online about it, they thought that was pretty cool. The Pioneer cop said I should go around to my neighbors and let them know that from time to time I'll be testing speakers and to have a little understanding if they could.

I asked what the law was, they said that any complaint is a disturbance no matter the time of day. They were cool about it and said they didn't care, but if their Captain sees they have to keep coming out, he will make them do something about it. addle: 

Guess I will be moving these back out of the corners. :innocent:

I'll be taking SPL measurements (quickly) before I do move them, and I will follow up with a phone call the City Hall to verify the city ordinances are and what the db levels have to be. Is a police officer in court with a subjective "It was pretty loud, your Honor" good enough to make a ticket stick? Probably, but I would like something more objective, like a hard number.

I want to be clear here. I am NOT advocating breaking the law.

I am only interested in the definition of my local city ordinance and relaying that information to my fellow hobbyist for their best interests as well as my own. And I am curious... :coocoo:


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## gorb (Sep 5, 2010)

Of course, I certainly don't agree with breaking the law either, but they certainly need to have some definition. "It was kinda loud" should definitely NOT fly on a ticket/in court....also, 8:00pm is still pretty early. Whoever is complaining must be really lame :/


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Derailing my own thread more than I already have.  I looked up the city ordinance for my area. The police officers were correct, it would be a simple Disturbing the Peace ticket.

_9.20.050 Disturbing the Peace.__

(d) Operating any radio, tape player, compact disc player, stereophonic sound system, or
similar device which reproduces or amplifies radio broadcasts, or musical recordings, in or upon any
street, alley, or other public place in such a manner as to be audible to other persons in such public
place more than fifty feet from the source;_

The Pioneer cop suggested I go door to door and try to find some middle ground with whomever has the issue with my noise.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Funny thing is, the next door neighbor that I sold my MFW-15 to was jamming out for over an hour TRYING to get the police to come. He has Cerwin Vega floorstanders for mains. 

I cranked it up for one song, they were there before the second song ended. :rofl2:

He called after the police were there to tell me his plan, and was completely unaware that the cops had come and gone! He told me to send them over to his place next time, LOL. I can't do that...

I think that my next step after talking to the disturbed neighbor is, someday getting a couple of Auralex SubDudes or Grammas and super chunk bass traps. I need to knock down the resonances I have, that should help a bit.


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## engtaz (Jul 9, 2010)

That just tells you how much better your news subs are or you and your cop calling neighbor are not on good terms. LOL


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## mojave (Dec 30, 2006)

Maybe the disturbance call was about your neighbor, but when the cops got there they heard your subs.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

mojave said:


> Maybe the disturbance call was about your neighbor, but when the cops got there they heard your subs.


This very well could be, and my neighbor thinks so to and insisted on apologizing to me for it. BUT, they were here two days before that and it was all me. Hard to say.

I went around the neighborhood today and talked to all my neighbors. They all have heard me jam out, but no one admitted to calling the cops. I now have a good idea who it was, though... :sarcastic:

I just need to get some Grammas and move my subs back out of the corners. And get a house with a basement. Someday.


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## ejbragg (Dec 13, 2009)

The complaining neighbor is a common subject. I had a rock band a few years back that used to practice in my large, double decker garage. I had asked the neighbors if the noise bothered them. My closest neighbors said yes, but not bad, and tbey didn't mind since we were ending the practices early, etc. ... Then one day, new neighbors moved in. At the end of the seco d band practice, in came the cops!

I visited those neighbors, who said they were eating dinner, and the plates were vibrating off the table! I didn't know if he was exaggerating, but he was obviously perturbed. He said all they could hear was bass, and it was loud.

An interesting phenomenon about bass is that it can build up in the strangest places. My close neighbors explained they were affected very little. This other guy's house was about 150 yards away, and off the corner (45 degrees) from my garage. He was being hit harder than any of my closer neighbors.

After some research, I stuffed insulation in the window of the building in that corner and blocked it off on the inside with 3/4" MDF; sealed it with caulk. Then next to it, in that offending corner, I built a large bass trap. I had lots of room, so I used the entire corner - it was 11 ft high x 5 ft wide x 8 ft long, using a 1/4 wavelength plenum model. We began practicing, with no police intrusions. A couple weeks later, I ran into the complainer and asked him how the noise level was doing. He asked, "What noise? Are you guys still practicing?!"

Man, I was proud of myself on that day! .... Then our little band broke up! !€*^%#$&!


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## engtaz (Jul 9, 2010)

Great story. Thanks


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

After trapping, I bet the bass in your room improved too, ejbragg. Your story reinforces my thoughts on trapping and isolation.

I moved my subs out of the corners a couple of hours ago, and did some much needed cable management. Set up the mains for minimum diffraction, I am really liking the way they sound. Got a nasty null at the LP at 112-120hz, though, I cannot seem to get rid of that no matter where I move the mains. The problem could be the LP, though I am stuck with that for now. Most likely, it is a floor bounce null.

Moving the subs, I lost 5 db @ 16hz and 2-3 db on everything else up to 80hz. They are going back into the corners. Sorry neighbor! :dontknow:


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