# Room Problem- should I buy Martin Logan ESLs?



## Peter Orrick (Oct 9, 2006)

I have a room problem. Contemplating purchasing Martin Logan EM ESLs for my den. Problem is room is only 12' wide and my left speaker will have to be placed behind a sidewall sofa arm which is 23" high. Bottom 23" of speaker will be firing into side of sofa arm (see photo). This means 500hz and below woofer section (and a bit of the upper ESL section) are hidden from view at MLP. Right speaker is in the clear. Have 110" Stewart screen so cannot move speakers toward center.

Can this work? Or will I be unable to create left to right soundstage and also lose left speaker response below 500hz?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

In an ideal world yes this is not an ideal placement but stereo imaging below 500Hz is not very common because those frequencys become far less directional. The current setup in the picture is not perfect but we all make sacrifices to make rooms work. Do you have an option of testing the EM ESLs? This could be beneficial in making the decision.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

I suspect you'll end up dissatisfied. The sub driver will be firing directly into the sofa, part of the electrostatic transducer will be blocked by the arm of the couch and both speakers will be too close to a side wall. Then there's the question of what do you use for a center.

Due to how they work, electrostatic's need room to breath. Place them close to any type of boundary and you're likely to be unhappy with the outcome.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I'd lose the couch. 


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## Peter Orrick (Oct 9, 2006)

Thank you everybody above with your input-

Have to keep couch for family reasons. 

Speaker front will be 48" from rear wall so that should be ok. Right speaker is 8" from side wall with 4" thick GIK panel so one foot away. Left speaker which has heavy duty drape is about 18" from side wall. That is best I can do.

I have auditioned these speakers at local dealer and was really impressed; really want to make them work. The Canadian Waveform speakers you see in photo are conventional front firers, are 15 years old so I want a change.

I plan to go back to dealer and put a 23" box in front of left speaker and see how that sounds. 

I am planning to purchase dealer recommended center EM-C2.

Any more comments are appreciated.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

I would have to say no also. Your room is just not wide enough even with no couch as you need to place the speakers on the sides of the huge screen. Placement is key for those speakers. What is the point of getting Panel speakers if you can't place them.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

15 year old speakers are barely broken in. Mine are over 30 and still sound as good if not better than they did new.
Im really starting to agree with others. those ESLs need more room to breath in order to sound like they did in the demo. Im very surprised given the info you have given us that the dealer is even recommending them.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> Im very surprised given the info you have given us that the dealer is even recommending them.


Are you familiar with the term "commission"? :smile:


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I hate to pile on but like everyone else I don't see a fit with those speakers and your room. With your room only being 12' wide and the size of the screen there really doesn't appear to be a workable solution.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

theJman said:


> Are you familiar with the term "commission"? :smile:




And my other favorite. Up sell!!!!!!!(cheerleader voice) yay!!!
I agree with the guys. There are more reasons not to buy them than reasons you should. 


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

I had a pair of Martin Logans years ago, and my experience was they need lots of breathing room... preferably at least 3' from any wall to sound really good. This doesn't mean they won't work, but they will not be anywhere near their potential. Personally I think you would be better off with what you have or some speakers on stands to clear the couch if you can't give them the room they need.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

The only way I would consider them is after an "in-home" demonstration. If your dealer wont let you take them for a listen, then they are the wrong dealer!

And I agree that they will more than likely not preform well. There are numerous, quality bookshelf speakers that sound excellent & will get you above the couch like your speakers now.


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## Peter Orrick (Oct 9, 2006)

Ouch! To be fair to dealer I was there with a friend who was purchasing Sonus Faber speakers and parked myself in their small room with the EM ESL's. Thought they were great but did not have much conversation with dealer.

Dealer is an hour plus away so will try my experiment- listen to them with a 23" box in front of left speaker. AND if they sound ok there will bring them here on a "bring them back" basis if they don't work in my den.

Clearly I would love to get the planar sound in my room!

Thanks everybody. Will report back in a month or so when I get back to dealer.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Tonto said:


> The only way I would consider them is after an "in-home" demonstration. If your dealer wont let you take them for a listen, then they are the wrong dealer!





Peter Orrick said:


> Ouch! To be fair to dealer I did not have much conversation with dealer.
> 
> will try my experiment- listen to them with a 23" box in front of left speaker. AND if they sound ok there will bring them here on a "bring them back" basis if they don't work in my den.
> 
> Clearly I would love to get the planar sound in my room!


I honestly would not even try it. Even if it sounds "OKAY" you are still missing out on all the potential. A pair of bookshelves would be way better for you. I see the 23" box test as a small problem, the real problem is that your speakers will not (can not) be 3 feet away from the side wall. But of course you can do what you want. I just hate going to someone's home and seeing there highend speaker in the corner playing away.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

I'm gonna jump on the bandwagon here and say there are probably better options. Having line-of-sight from MLP to all speakers is more important to a good sounding room than having a speaker you really liked in a demo. Also, the electrostatics share a lot of principals with open-baffle designs, and there isn't any way around having some appreciable distance to the nearest hard boundary.

If you like the planar sound, (and you're absolutely right to prefer it and seek it out) there are options that might work a lot better in the space you have. I'd see if you can track down a small-format box, bookshelf size-ish, that has a ribbon tweeter or an AMT and audition those. Even if they don't sound as good to your ears as the ML's did in the demo room, they might just blow them out of the water in your space given all of the factors you have to deal with. 

The funny part is that a forum of home theater nerds is trying to talk one of its own OUT of buying new speakers...


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## Peter Orrick (Oct 9, 2006)

After multiple responses on this site and one other- the 100% consensus is without line of sight of whole speaker from MLP, full height ML dipole electrostatics will not work in my room. Also with centered Stewart screen cannot get MLs far enough away from side walls. I am calling it a day, NOPE!.

Has anyone had experience with stand mount dipoles? Below is an attached photo of Eminent Technology's stand mounted LFT-16A, the little brother to the highly regarded full height LFT-8b.

Does anyone have experience with this speaker or any other stand mount dipole?

As you can tell, I am still on my mission to make dipoles work in my den.

As always thank you for any advice.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Peter Orrick said:


> After multiple responses on this site and one other- the 100% consensus is without line of sight of whole speaker from MLP, full height ML dipole electrostatics will not work in my room. Also with centered Stewart screen cannot get MLs far enough away from side walls. I am calling it a day, NOPE!.
> 
> Has anyone had experience with stand mount dipoles? Below is an attached photo of Eminent Technology's stand mounted LFT-16A, the little brother to the highly regarded full height LFT-8b.
> 
> ...


For Dipoles to sound their best you still need to get them out into the room, if you can't then they are the wrong speakers for your situation IMO. Those are small enough to clear the couch, but I still believe they need room...at least these would be small enough for you to try out though.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

ellisr63 said:


> For Dipoles to sound their best you still need to get them out into the room, if you can't then they are the wrong speakers for your situation IMO. Those are small enough to clear the couch, but I still believe they need room...at least these would be small enough for you to try out though.


Yup. That. 

I think you'd be better served by a boxed design. There are plenty to choose from that incorporate ribbons, ring radiators, AMTs, and other non-dome tweeters that will bring the clarity you seek from the electrostatic drivers without all the complexity of placement that dipoles are saddled with. 

I suppose it's theoretically possible to eat enough of the energy coming off the back of the dipole to trick it into thinking it is in a larger space than it really is... but I can't see that being cheap, aesthetically pleasing, or structurally feasible.


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## Peter Orrick (Oct 9, 2006)

Next week will head to dealer and have him put two ML EM ESLs on 18" or so stands (boxes?) and see how they sound. Am convinced now that left speaker cannot work behind sofa arm (all woofer frequencies below 500hz!).

Anyone here have experience with raising MLs on 18-20" risers in past? Did it work to your satisfaction? Did you have to tilt them forward to aim (slightly) down at 36" high MLP?

I realize my speakers will only be about 1 1/2 feet from side wall but right side wall has 4" GIK panel and left side window has a heavy liner drape. 4' to back wall for both.

Still on my mission to get planars into my den.


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## deenie1219 (Sep 6, 2016)

I bought the Martin Logan ESLs about two weeks ago. My situation too is less than ideal due to room size and design. I had to place the ESL panels just two feet out from the front walls. They really would sound better at three or four feet out from the wall. But they still sound very good indeed. Perhaps it is because they are part of a 7.1 system and so the other speakers "fill in" for them. In your case, you are more restricted than me and that left speaker position, near the corner and with those curtains is problematic. A good room correction system might be be able to mitigate or surmount the situation. The Denon receivers at the higher end might be able to do the trick. Anthem and Yamaha's Aventage higher end receivers might work too. 
You might consider the Martin Logan 60XT's or Motion 40's in place of the ESLs. Also a good subwoofer can make a big improvement in the sound from your current setup. 
Anyway, see if you can audition the ESLs in your home and then decide, if your heart really is for those speakers. Also replacing the curtains with, say, wooden Venetian blinds, would help the back reflections from the electrostatic panel not to be suffocated.


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## Peter Orrick (Oct 9, 2006)

Thanks Dean-

As I said, I will audition at dealer on 18" risers and if successful will audition here. My big fear is woofer is designed to be close to floor and raised 18" will change woofer frequency response (up to 500hz at crossover!). Plan to measure response with REW at dealer.

I do have 4' to rear wall and several GIK panels which I will place behind/to side of EM ESLs and see if that helps with side wall distance. Also may try plywood sheet behind drape in front of left wall window. And so forth.

I am covered with subs and room correction- in photo you can see a Rhythmik D15SE 15" sub in right front corner; there is another in left rear corner. Rythmik has a servo system and the planar people on their thread say planars and Rythmik work together. I have a Mcintosh MX150 processor with Lyngdorf RoomPerfect room correction.

Here's hoping!


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Peter, I’m just going to say this one more time. STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS WORK. ESL’s are great speakers and will sound great anywhere, even nearfield on a computer desk (someone in the world will like it). The Point is that any dipole speaker needs room to breathe on ALL sides in order for them to be at their best. Panels will not help that useless they can magically trap the sound and release it 30milliseconds later without changing the frequency. 

Please listen to what everyone is telling you.



> For all their magnificent looks and enthralling sound, the EM ESLs have a trifecta of idiosyncrasies that might make them unsuitable for some home theaters. For example, to sound their best, the dipolar electrostatic panels need to be a relatively large distance away from the front wall. MartinLogan recommends using 0.618 times your room’s ceiling height as the formula for finding an optimal distance from the center of the curved panel to the wall behind the speakers. In my case, with my room’s standard 8-foot-high ceiling, the distance was around 59.3 inches—or just shy of 5 feet into the room. Considering my Samsung plasma is mounted on the wall, that location creates a considerable amount of basically unusable floor space between the screen and the speakers. You can calculate the distance from the side walls by dividing the width of your room in inches by 18 and then multiplying the quotient by 5. In my room, that put the center of the panels a little over 46 inches away from the side walls. This placement turned out to be just about perfect from a sound standpoint, especially after I angled the speakers in a couple of inches and then adjusted the rake angle (the amount of front-to-back tilt) by extending the front spikes about half a turn in order to lift the placement of vocals for two-channel music listening.
> Of course, once they’re your speakers, you can place them anywhere you like. MartinLogan suggests, though, that you keep the EM ESLs a minimum of 24 inches away from both the front wall behind the speakers and the side walls.
> 
> Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/conte...esl-speaker-system-page-2#wWx67B18c3M1CXAH.99


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## Peter Orrick (Oct 9, 2006)

The race is over. 

I spent yesterday afternoon moving my sofa back, my MLP chairs to the right- all to get a sightline to the bottom of the left EM ESL. It all got rather weird and the furniture just didn't work in the room. Wife was out whole time fortunately. And as I am retired, I spend alot of time during the day on the couch reading paper, doing crosword, internet, etc. And this puts sofa arm squarely in front of left Martin Logan. So no matter what I do, this room can't work because of one sofa arm!

Everyone with a few exceptions has told me this repeatedly- must see/hear lower woofer section, side wall are too close, "planars need room to breath!" and so forth.

Disappointed dealer and probably some here as I never did the test there or in my den.

As I no longer have credibility with posters, I will only post again with actual new speakers in my den.

Chastised, but still searching!

Thank you everyone for all your valuable input.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Peter Orrick said:


> As I no longer have credibility with posters, I will only post again with actual new speakers in my den.


There's no credibility issue, just some concern you were proceeding headlong down a trail that was a dead end. Thankfully you realized it before an expensive mistake was made. Either way, don't feel like you have to retreat into the dark. It's not like that at HTS - we don't play those games here. Feel free to post to your hearts content.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

+Jman. 
Everyone here is typically positive in the advice given, with the advisee's best interest in mind. I think that was the case here. The concern was that you would have spent considerable money on a set of speakers and seen only a fraction of the potential. Using planars just for the sake of using planars just seems counterintuitive with the limitations you have. For example, it's possible with room treatments and ribbon tweeters you may find much better results. In "your" room. In my case, I know that even if I found some super mega awesome sounding bookshelf speakers, they won't work in my cavernous room. All dynamics would be lost. Therefore I won't even look there(prefer towers anyway) Point is, your credibility is not in question, and like Jim said, post away!!! Most of us have had a few spirited debates here, but very rarely have I seen a hostile environment. It's hard to tell sometimes if people want advice or verification. I'd be more worried with radio silence in the thread. Looking forward to what you do. 
Happy posting. 


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Peter, this might be an option for you. This company does have dipole options but the dipoles may not work for you. The BMR model is (I think) right for you. Ribbon tweeter, great extension, and it can be made in a sealed box so it can be placed close to the side wall and stands will make them clear the couch. Or you can even talk to the owner and he could maybe make a model of the slims that might work for you. PLUS the company (SALK) that makes the cabinets for philharmonicaudio make some of the best Cabinets for Rythmik Subs in the WORLD!!! Both Speakers and Sub can be made of the same material for a perfect Match.

http://philharmonicaudio.com/

















Here are the slims.
















And the Rythmik SUB!!!


> We have built many custom subwoofers over the years for all kinds of applications. But since Rythmik introduced their Direct Servo Technology, we've pretty much limited subwoofer production to Rythmik-based designs. They are simply too good.
> 
> It takes a lot of air movement to generate deep bass. And there is just as much energy coming off the rear of the subwoofer cone as there is initiated by the front of the cone. The result is a tremendous amount of energy being directed back into the subwoofer cabinet. This energy can easily create cabinet resonances and can cloud the clarity of the bass response.
> 
> ...


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

Those are 1) absurdly beautiful and 2) exactly what I had in mind (minus a make/model) for OP's situation.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

Also, +1 to Jman. Don't ever be afraid to bounce an idea of the people here. With rare exceptions, everyone is here because they read the forum rules and agree with the philosophy behind them. While we were concerned that you might be making a tactically unwise decision, rather than flame you for it we are much more likely to ask how you tackled issues that arose if you had decided to go all the way down that road... and offer advice when you ran into various walls (in your case almost literally). 

This is most of why I like HTS.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Peter Orrick said:


> As I no longer have credibility with posters, I will only post again with actual new speakers in my den.


Hi Peter,
Not quite sure how you came to such a conclusion. Many folks gave their opinions and well meaning/sincere advice, but in the end, the only one that matters should be yours.
I, for one, based on my knowledge of physics and hearing perception, think the MLs might have worked just fine, especially elevated a bit. Ideally you would listen to the speakers themselves in your room, in lieu of internet opinion polling, but alas, this is not always possible.
Best of luck with your travails ;-).

cheers


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## Peter Orrick (Oct 9, 2006)

I just returned to this thread today and appreciate hearing it's ok to post even if you aren't about to purchase a speaker. I have a financial problem which will take a couple of months but am still thinking.

I still want to get a planar working here, I know, I know.

As I learned from all of you, the two problems with ML EM ESLs in my room are, first, front wall with 110" screen is only 11' 9" wide so not possible to move speakers inboard therefore max distance from side of speaker to side walls would be only 1 1/2 feet. Maybe with use of GIK panel or other acoustic treatments could make this work if not optimally? Distance behind speakers would be 4' so that is ok.

Second issue was sofa arm blocking woofer of left speaker. The ML 8" woofer handles all frequencies below 500hz. As midrange begins at 250hz (midrange is 250hz-7500hz where most of vocal and instrumental fundamentals reside) lower midrange of left speaker will be attenuated and the two speakers can probably never gel.

I have a new love at same price point as ML- Eminent Technology LFT- 8b. Its 8" woofer handles frequencies from 180hz and down. According to a review its midrange panel (above sofa arm) rolls off slowly at 180hz so I should hear all the midrange and below.

Might work?


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

On paper, the LFT-8b could work. 

As for making the the ESL's work, I think it is possible too... but it will cost more money to get the room right (adding treatments and such), and even then they might not get to their full potential. But getting away from an open-back design and getting them running really well will likely outperform the ESL's performing at 70-80% of their best and for less money overall. 

Don't abandon planar drivers. Just try to find them in a box, like linked above.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

I forgot all about this, but it might work for you... ML used to make a pair of ESLs that were for surrounds (they were full sized panels, but no woofers), and mounted on the walls, and you angled them outward. If these are still available this might allow you to get them up to clear the furniture. I have never heard them, and I don't how they would sound compared to the ones you are looking at, but it is possible they might do the job for you.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Peter Orrick said:


> As I learned from all of you, the two problems with ML EM ESLs in my room are, first, front wall with 110" screen is only 11' 9" wide so not possible to move speakers inboard therefore max distance from side of speaker to side walls would be only 1 1/2 feet.


You didn't learn that from me .
With a conventional dome/cone type speaker and subsequent polar radiation, that close to sidewall is detrimental. An acoustically large dipole panel like the ML, has strong nulls to the side, so while not ideal, 1.5' should be just fine.



Peter Orrick said:


> Second issue was sofa arm blocking woofer of left speaker. The ML 8" woofer handles all frequencies below 500hz. As midrange begins at 250hz (midrange is 250hz-7500hz where most of vocal and instrumental fundamentals reside) lower midrange of left speaker will be attenuated and the two speakers can probably never gel.


Again, while not ideal, physics is on your side. An 8" driver is omnidirectional at 500hz...and below. They don't beam like flashlights. A 500 Hz wavelength is around 27" long. By 250 Hz it 54". Suddenly the sofa side doesn't look so large. The waves simply wrap around it. It might not be a bad idea to use a stand to raise the speaker a bit, but you may be overestimating the effect.
Quite frankly I see no reason the MLs can't work with a little tweaking, aka a 8-12" stand. Maybe an excuse to buy an inexpensive mini-sub and improve your bass smoothness room wide as well.

cheers


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## Peter Orrick (Oct 9, 2006)

Thsi may take several months but I am inclined to purchase the Eminent Technology 8b's due to 180hz crossover from woofer to midrange panel. Would have preferred the shorter/less wide ML's but the 500hz crossover makes me doubt a good midrange from the left behind the sofa arm speaker.

Will come back to this thread after I have made purchase with results and photos.

Thank you everybody for your comments!


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

AJ is correct, dipoles have strong nulls at their sides. Combined with 4" absorption panels, the speakers will "see" the side wall at a distance greater than the physical 1.5 ft.

Eminent Technology seems to be making a splash in the panel world, although I seriously doubt the lower crossover point will buy you as much clarity as you think you might be missing due to the couch arm. I do know the the ML EM-ESL is a fantastic music/HT speaker as I have heard them and seen multiple measurements in a separate music and home theater rooms. 

Good luck with your journey, Peter, and please let us know how it ends.

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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Eminent Tech has been around for quite a while (1982). They are actually based right here in T-Town. One of the Dr.'s here bought an older pair off the internet for next to nothing. He met Bruce Thigpen (he's the guy behind ET) at a party one night & they got to talking about the speakers. His wound up needing a complete refit. Bruce told him to bring them over & he did it for free! This particular Dr. is really into audio...he says they are the best speakers he has ever heard. I need to mosey on over there one day & have a looksee! He is very frugal with advertising $'s. Maybe he has a pair we could review!


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## Peter Orrick (Oct 9, 2006)

As I said, I am a few months away budget wise from Eminent Technology purchase but based on what I have learned and the crossover point of the woofer (180hz vs Martin Logan 500hz) behind the sofa arm, am convinced this can work. I also found another company as well- the Sanders model 11- their smaller model has woofer crossover at 170hz, BUT with required woofer amplifier, priced somewhere around $13k so that's out.

Hope this doesn't take until Christmas.

As always thank you for your input. I will report back.

Peter


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