# First Attempt..



## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Hey guys,

Been lurking around the forums for quite awhile but as soon as I found out a computer that was given to me has line in and outs on the soundcard I made a quick trip to radio shack for all the cables.

Here is my setup:

Pioneer Elite SC-05
Dali Ikon 6
2 PSB Subsonic 6i (I have a third sub, subsonic 5i but its not hooked up yet).

I'm using a newer RS Analog meter with the soundcard output plugged into the cd input of my receiver and the output of the meter into the input of the soundcard (using right only).

The room i'm in is about 11x22 but it is completely open to the kitchen and the rest of the down stairs (all tile too).

I was happy (read: surprised) that I got REW working so quickly but I guess I expected more out of my setup. There seems to be a fall off from 40hz on down which gets much worse in the low 20's.

I'm going to keep on working on this but just wanted to post the graph up to get any thoughts.

Thanks,
Pete


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Welcome to the Forum, Pete!

Happy to see that you got REW operating so easily! However, it would be easier for us to decipher your graph if you could re-scale it to our prefered vertical axis of 45-105 dB.

Regards,
Wayne


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Not a problem:


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Wow, that's a really low signal. Did you run the "Calibrate SPL" routine?

Regards,
Wayne


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Ha, that's what I was thinking..

I downloaded the cal file from the website and then loaded that into REW, I thought that was all that was required to calibrate the RS meter.

Sorry, I also did do the "calibrate speaker" button thing too and the level I got and entered in was 65db. After I did that I then put in the correction file for the rs mic.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> I downloaded the cal file from the website and then loaded that into REW, I thought that was all that was required to calibrate the RS meter


The Calibrate SPL routine ( Settings, Mic/Meter tab) is necessary in order for REW to establish a reference for SPL. Basically, you’re “telling” the program where 75 dB “is.” From that point it can determine other values, so that the SPL readings on the graph’s axis are accurate.

Regards,
Wayne


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Yep, I did end up doing that before hand (forgot to mention it) and i got a reading of 65dB. Perhaps i'm just getting that low of response at those frequencies although I would of thought my subs could do better.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

I don't understand - you shouldn't be "getting" a reading. You're "giving" a reading. During the routine, the test signal is generated, and you turn up the receiver's volume until it registers 75 dB on your SPL metter. When you click the "Finish" icon on the pop-up window, you've established what 75 dB is.

Regards,
Wayne


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

I'm confused, I did that with the check level setting early on but for the process of doing the "calibrate spl" in the mic/meter tab the directions say on step 5:

"enter the reading from your spl and press finished when done".

It played the noise and my meter read 65db so that is what I put in the box and pressed finish.
Am I missing something?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> It played the noise and my meter read 65db so that is what I put in the box and pressed finish.
> Am I missing something?


Yes. Turn up the volume of your receiver until your meter reads 75 dB. Then put 75 in the box and press "Finish."

Regards,
Wayne


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Ok went back and made all the adjustments.

One thing I wasn't sure of is when do I upload the RS spl cal file, before or after I do the level check in the mic tab?

I did it both ways and it didn't seem to make a difference and everything was set right per the directions. 
When I ran the test below it was showing headroom of less than 1db, so i'm not sure what was going on there but i didn't get an error message.

Still way down on levels especially below 40hz, i have my crossover set to 80hz.


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Wow I suck, apparently my subs weren't on the whole time (their lights were cause I was watching tv right before taking the measurements).

My problem is the only way I can get my subs to turn on is to put the AVR in surround auto which means its doing all of its fancy corrections. 

Oh well, the graphs looks much better and I feel good about what those Dali's can do by themselves . 
I'm still dropping out around 20 and 60 for some reason.


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## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

Pete, 20Hz appears to be the bottom limit of those subs, according to this review. And being ported they will fall off rapidly. 

The null around 58Hz is probably a room effect. You might affect this by moving your listening position forward or backward. Where are you sitting? You can test this just by moving the microphone forward or backward a couple of feet, of course, and observe what changes. 

With two subs, you may be able to affect this by changing the placement of one or the other. A description of where they are placed might prompt more suggestions from folks. 

What is the height of your ceiling? 

Have fun,
Bill


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> One thing I wasn't sure of is when do I upload the RS spl cal file, before or after I do the level check in the mic tab?


Doesn't matter. 

Since it appears that your main speakers were playing along with the subs, the nulls at 60 and 100 Hz could be phase-related.

Regards,
Wayne


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Appreciate the help so far guys..

From the link you sent of the review (seen it before) there doesn't seem to be as bad of a drop as i have. I am starting to play with placement and fine tuning the volumes. 
The ceiling is 9'4"

Here is the picture of the room:


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## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

As Wayne wrote, you should certainly measure to see whether the 58Hz null is related to phase between the sub and main. 

From the picture, it appears your set is hung on the long wall? If so, you may want to play with moving either sub left or right, to see how this affects the behavior. And in addition to front/back movement, you can see if left/right displacement of the microphone tells you something. 

Bill


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Alright I think I took care of my 58hz null by adding in my third sub (subsonic 5i) on the other side of the left main speaker. Now I have a null around 97hz, that I wonder has something to do with my cross over so i'm going to work on that.


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Been messing around with REW a bit more.

Here are graphs of:

1. Fronts + Sub

2. Sub only

3. Left Main only

4. Right Main only

5. Left+Right


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Looks like you're running your mains full range? Why?

Regards,
Wayne


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

That is with a 50Hz crossover, I've been experimenting with different ones, seems to work the best so far. That peak just below 200 is what I'd like to get rid of, I'm going to mess with speaker placement and see how it effects it. One thing i've noticed is I've done scans with different Pioneer EQs and some of the different ones don't seem to make much of a difference.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

For the dip just below 200, try moving the mic position a little.


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Moved the mic around a little the drop was still there. I started moving my mains around and adjusting the eq on the pioneer and its been helping out. I really can't wait until my emc 8000 comes in and i'll start doing full scans. I have a little sibilance that i'm trying to get rid of.

Thanks,
Pete


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Alright guys before I go on just want to thank you all for helping me, this is a really cool/dangerous (spend a lot of time on it) tool and you guys have really helped me out.

So I finally got my ECM8000/Xenx 802 setup, with the mic pointed about 10° from vertical using the vertical calibration data provided by cross labs.

So this is what I have for mains+subs 80hz cross-over

Some things i'd like to work on:

1. Small rise ~40hz
2. Good size dip at 160hz
3. Why the roll off above 12khz?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

vettett15 said:


> So I finally got my ECM8000/Xenx 802 setup, with the mic pointed about 10° from vertical using the vertical calibration data provided by cross labs.


Does that mean your mic has a custom calibration?

The overall rise in response above 2 kHz is the source of your “sibilance” problem.



> 3. Why the roll off above 12khz?


 Just for grins, try using the 0 degree calibration file with the mic aimed at the speakers.

Regards,
Wayne


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Yep custom cal, basic +

I believe you are right about the sibilance so I took care of that (see green line in graph below).

I did a horizontal measurement using the 0° cal file, graph below in purple.

Still showing the sharp drop starting around 12khz, which I thought is kinda odd but maybe it has to do with how I am measuring my room.

My ribbon tweeters on the dali don't cross until around 13khz..


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Are you sure those tweeters are putting signal out? What are your sweep parameters (start, stop, length, etc...)?


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

I guess I don't know for sure, I do have my speakers bi-amped but I think I got it correct...

I guess I can check by outputting a high frequency noise and see what I hear?

start freq: 15hz
end freq: 20,000 hz
level: -12
length: 512k
sweeps: 1
Total time: 10.9s


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

I suppose you could. It might be interesting to see if your ears agree with your mic at that frequency. It IS possible you have just one sample that rolls off that badly, but frankly, the rolloff we see in the graphs seems to sort of coincide with the xover to the tweeters...


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Yeah I used REW to put out a sine wave up high and walked around the room with my rs meter, the sound is definitely there right around the speaker, there just seems to be some spots in the room where its dead.

After messing with some positioning and eq (on the avr) I sat down and listened to some music, sounded really good but I noticed that when I sit in the couch I tend to recline some lowering my ear position. When seated I put the mic next to me and it was a good bit higher than my ears so I ended up moving the mic down. This has changed the where the nulls/peaks are a good amount and now I am battling a rise in the 500hz area. The eq is already attenuating the signal here by a lot but I believe there is something in the room causing the rise (6-8db). Are there any tricks to using REW to find out what object in the room is causing this, I have moved the speakers a good amount and it changes the peak some but it is still there.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Well, the first trick is to post the plot to see what people think... ;-)
I would think in this case the next step would be to scan the left and right speakers individually to see if it's a phase cancellation between them or due to only one or the other or affecting them equally...


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Yep the graph might help, wasn't at the right computer at the time:

Tonight i'm going to try moving the speakers around more and doing individual scans.


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Here is a graph:

Red = Left Main + Subs
Purple = Right Main + Subs
Green = Both Mains + Subs


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Did some more speaker placement and EQ adjustments, pretty happy with this. The only thing is the image seemed to have moved to the right of center, I'll have to play with the distance setting perhaps?


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Hmmm... well, for starters at least, are you purposely running your sub hot?


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

For starters? No like?

The subs aren't really being run hot (they are turned way down but there are 3 of them) what has happened is i have been eq'ing my mains down so the subs look hotter. I haven't turned them down yet.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

It's not that I don't like, I'm just curious... I was buying time to think about that 500Hz area 
I don't understand, you're applying EQ to bring down the mains, but then intend to turn the subs down to match? Surely that's not what you mean...


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Well what really happened was I didn't like what I was seeing so I switched the pionner to a different eq preset. This preset had the mains trimmed down a good bit so that's why the subs look even hotter now. The eq preset had more differences than the previous preset than just the trim level. I can bump the trim on the mains back up or bring the subs down. 



glaufman said:


> It's not that I don't like, I'm just curious... I was buying time to think about that 500Hz area
> I don't understand, you're applying EQ to bring down the mains, but then intend to turn the subs down to match? Surely that's not what you mean...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Ah, then maybe you don't want to worry about the 500HJz+ area until you see a scan with EQ turned off.


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

I can do that I think but what will that tell me? Just if something in my eq is causing the peak? I started with some eq off but there may have been some standing wave feature still on. Even then the 500 peak was still there. I think its pretty flat I'd just like to get rid of some peaks and close the gap between the sun and mains. I can mess with the crossover some more too. Its at 80 now I'm gonna try 50 again. The mains still had some usefull output there



glaufman said:


> Ah, then maybe you don't want to worry about the 500HJz+ area until you see a scan with EQ turned off.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Pretty much. When lowering the crossover, don't forget to listen for differences. Mains can have useful output down there and look ok on an FR, but can start distorting and not sound very good. This will of course depend on exactly what your mains are. I also try to keep xovers at least 1/2 octave above the natural rolloff of the speaker.


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

Alright, after many headaches and a lot of help from you guys I believe I have gotten pretty close (to what i'm not sure...).

This is what I have now:

Subs crossed at 100hz
BFD 2 filters

65hz, 12 b/w, -2 gain (I know probably useless).
82hz, 14 b/w, -9 gain

This is the outcome with a hard knee curve +8db (100hz vs 20hz).

Next, I'm going to try for the home curve that spridle is using here: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/12661-target-curve-new-discovery.html

What do you guys think?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Looks good. I assume you have a good equalizer for your main channels?

Regards,
Wayne


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

I believe its good, pioneer elite sc-05 using both 9 band eq and parametric eq on the mains.

So here is what I have

No BFD

BFD for hard knee 8 db house curve

BFD for spridle house curve.

Now all that's left is to listen to some music (I believe this is the whole point...)


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Looks good. Maybe the Pioneer parametric can do something for your 350 Hz, 700 Hz and 11 kHz issues?

Regards,
Wayne


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

I wish, the parametric eq only goes up to 250hz (they call it standing wave).

The 9 band eq misses those frequences (it does 250, 500, 8k), though there may be a some room there to clean it up a little.

I assume placement will be the biggest help and i've moved the towers all over the place and kinda like where they are now. 

Maybe i'll get real crazy and get a full band eq.. Talk me out of Wayne please...


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

vettett15 said:


> Maybe i'll get real crazy and get a full band eq.. Talk me out of Wayne please...


Ha, you're talking to the wrong guy. Have you seen my equipment list? 

Regards,
Wayne


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

I'll try to. That looks great, leave it be. You need your money.

Did it work?

One real question, what do you make of the sound?

Dan


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## vettett15 (Jul 1, 2009)

ha thanks guys.

I haven't had a chance to really listen to any music, i've been too busy making it "perfect".....

Any suggestions on music to listen for that would really show the differences in sub curves?


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## astrolopitec (Dec 24, 2009)

The best music for critical analysis of any system is the one that you have listened to hundreds of times. In other words your own favorite music.

In the mobile field, "I Love You" from bassotronic has become a bit of a reference track to compare boom boxes. My 10" KRK studio sub can barely reveal the base material on that track while on my 15" JBL isobaric sub the entire house shakes. It's a very easy piece to find on the net.


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