# speakers



## rodeothor (May 28, 2012)

I have def tech fronts and surround on a 5.0 setup that will eventually be a 7.1 setup. My def techs have a sensitivity of 91 but the center speaker I'm considering is a klipsch with a sensitivity of 95. Will the center channel over power the rest of my speakers? Def Tech BP08 fronts and monitor 450 surrounds. Klipsch G-28 center

Sent from my PC36100 using HT Shack


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

rodeothor said:


> Will the center channel over power the rest of my speakers?


No. Your AVR/SSP allows for adjustment to match the speaker levels.


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## rodeothor (May 28, 2012)

Thanks!

Sent from my PC36100 using HT Shack


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I would highly recommend using one of the Def Tech center channel speakers that match what you have for your mains as going with one that does not could cause issues with blending of the front sound stage as it pans from side to side. Although Klipsch maks a great speaker it may not be the best match to what you have.


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## J&D (Apr 11, 2008)

Totally agree on matching the fronts. It is not a matter of sensitivity or overpowering it is an issue of voicing. How the center performs and blends with your mains is critical. Surrounds are less so. If you like your Def techs and plan on keeping them get a matching center.


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## rodeothor (May 28, 2012)

Thanks! First time seeing the term "voicing."


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> I would highly recommend using one of the Def Tech center channel speakers that match what you have for your mains as going with one that does not could cause issues with blending of the front sound stage as it pans from side to side. Although Klipsch maks a great speaker it may not be the best match to what you have.


I agree that using a Def Tech would be a better match; FWIW we are all referring to "timbre matching." Matching levels should not present any problems, but (at least most people would agree that) the system will sound better with a matched center.


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## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

Try to Pick up a clr2002. It's a wonderful center and will match nice with you bp8's!!

Check out Vanns.com as they sell that model still


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## pmcneil (May 29, 2010)

I think this 'voicing' term is baloney, unless I'm mistaken and there is some scientific measurement that describes it. Accuracy is what matters, and that's a matter of the room, and where you place the center (!!), as well as the 'brand'. Place an accurate one in the center beside whatever is accurate on either side, equalize the out of them (e.g. Audyssey MultEQ XT32), and you'll be fine.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

pmcneil said:


> I think this 'voicing' term is baloney, unless I'm mistaken and there is some scientific measurement that describes it. Accuracy is what matters, and that's a matter of the room, and where you place the center (!!), as well as the 'brand'. Place an accurate one in the center beside whatever is accurate on either side, equalize the out of them (e.g. Audyssey MultEQ XT32), and you'll be fine.


The voicing term is not baloney, speakers sound different from one another. 
EQ does not make one speaker sound like another regardless of how accurate the speakers may be.


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## pmcneil (May 29, 2010)

If it can't be measured, it's baloney. And cables can't be measured, as more or less accurate, that's beyond doubt, both scientifically, and in blind tests of 'golden ears'.

Rooms dominate, equalization is the only (cheap) way out.


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## wgmontgomery (Jun 9, 2011)

chashint said:


> The voicing term is not baloney, speakers sound different from one another.
> EQ does not make one speaker sound like another regardless of how accurate the speakers may be.


I agree, but I _can_ see the logic behind the previous (unquoted) statement. One would _think_ that an "accurate" speaker would simply reproduce the sound without added "color." Sadly, even some of the best speakers available sound very different. I had B&W Nat. 802s mains, a B&W Matrix 805 for center, and Kef Ref. 104.2s as rear speakers; test tones sounded quite different through each set.

I'm using unmatched speakers for side/rear (NHT HDP-2 and Kef 2005.2), and the SSP's EQ does help.


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## pmcneil (May 29, 2010)

Yeah, and do the makers of these speaker brands 'voice' them, so that left/right sound the same as centers. Measurements invariably indicate that the answer is 'no'. If you want equivalent sound, get three identical left/right/ center channels. Equalization, the best now available, Audessay EQ32, can get close to that, I can assure you.


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## pmcneil (May 29, 2010)

By the way, that is what I have done, gone with nearly identical left/right and centers, all vertical. NOT centers in a horizontal array, versus l/r in vertical.


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

pmcneil said:


> By the way, that is what I have done, gone with nearly identical left/right and centers, all vertical. NOT centers in a horizontal array, versus l/r in vertical.


Why not identical vertically oriented LCR instead of nearly.....


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## jmackovic (Jan 18, 2012)

Edit: I just re-read your question and saw you were asking a rhetorical question about why not using identical speakers rather than nearly but I already put up the information so I'll leave it for anybody else who comes across it and actually wonders why you put the speakers vertical if possible. 

He uses them in the vertical position for proper dispersion. If you take a L/R speaker with the tweeter in the center and turn it on its side you drastically decrease the channels horizontal dispersion. That is why most speaker manufactures make a different center channel/or design the speaker so it can be placed horizontal if needed. A lot of in-wall speakers move the tweeters to above the plane of the woofers to allow for placement in either a vertical or horizontal configuration. As far as matching the speakers the Best possible option (according to the Industry standards) is to get three identical speakers for L/C/R and place them vertically behind an acoustically transparent screen. The reason for this is that speakers do have different tonality and manufactures do use many of the same components throughout their speaker line to keep their speakers matched. It will be much more difficult to EQ out a horn center with titanium tweeter L/R's. It would also cost him considerably more to get the quality of EQ necessary to level out the sound stage than it would be to buy the recommended speaker, which is a discontinued model selling at a great price. Btw I had the Definitive Tech L/C/R 2500 and it sounded fantastic with the 7002BP's I had at the time. If possible I would go for the 2500 as it has the powered subwoofer, allowing it to really fill out the lower male vocal range. I loved my Definitive Techs so much they were the first manufacter I signed up with when I became an installer at the beginning of the year! Let me now if there is anything I can do to help.


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

I did not ask a rhetorical question as to why someone would orient their LCR's vertically, I do understand the benefits of this orientation, I have three identical speakers vertically placed as LCR's, if you have the option of using three identical speakers instead of two and one almost identical, why not do that? That was my question. Using a MTM in a horizontal position in my opinion is a compromise unless it can be compensated for within the parameters of the network giving the option of either vert. or horiz. placement, and in my situation I have the option of doing just that. Thank you for your comment, I'm sorry if I came off as being rhetorical.
Cheers Jeff


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## MagnusAtom (Oct 23, 2012)

Hello, would like to chime in:

One of the important reasons that matching centre channel is better than a centre channel of a different brand is that the speakers will tend to have a greater disparity between each other.

This is in the linearity of speakers. Different speakers will respond differently at different dB. 
Even when putting them through Audyssey. 

LR being the same will sound the same. C with a different brand will for example have varying responses vs the LR, like less/more highs, less/more mid, less/more bass at various volume. 

Timbre matching (same tone/voicing, as previously mentioned) is also a key factor, you wouldn't put a Wilson Audio C with a Sonus Faber LR. Audyssey helps to a certain degree, but why find yourself in that situation in the first place especially when you have the choice? 

Speakers from the same series will do just fine for most people- same technology for drivers, cabinets, will help. I think Klipsch is famous for their Horn technology, and DT typically uses conventional drivers? That's a clear sign that they are going to be pretty different. 

Those are just guidelines. If you have limitations, Audyssey can help bridge the gaps for tone(as long as the speakers are capable of it).


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## EQmeat (Nov 18, 2012)

Perhaps no speakers are technically "accurate".


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## MagnusAtom (Oct 23, 2012)

You can get a flat on-axis response, but none with a consistent flat off-axis response comparing to the on-axis- tilt your head, or move about the room and you should hear differences- ears will pick up reflected responses more. Ears being by the side of our heads will not only receive sounds directly from the speakers, it will also listen to sounds reflected off the surfaces from the room. 

Different manufacturers have different approaches to achieving the 'optimal' performance. That also causes a lot of difference in sound between speaker brands. 

So there are speaker makers that build speakers that reduce interaction with the environment. But they are expensive, but very good. 

Other speakers focus on delivering great results in the anechoic chamber. Very few measure in typical room conditions. 

Hence in the subject of matching speakers, best to go with LCR same speakers, or Same-Series Center Speakers. If those cant be done, look at speakers from the same company. And then look at speakers with similar philosophies, and similar configurations. 

OT: Positioning of speakers plays an important part too. Just below or above the screen is usually great if you can angle the tweeter to the lister's ears (money seat). 
Acoustically transparent screens with tweeters lined up LCR in a row forming in the middle of the screen is the next best because you will have to deal with the high freq loss being behind the screen. 
Speakers should be designed to be meant to do those things, like tweeter should be upper most to avoid interference with mids when you are placing them below the display. Advised to have them on reverse when placing them on top. 

Then again, there is a phantom effect especially with movies. The sound from the center seems to 'move' up to the image. This is our intelligent brain at work. If this is not heard, you could be too close to the speaker, or the speaker isn't pointing towards the listener... Well, it could be many reasons, but that is not the intended effect for multi-channel.


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

The research done on this topic says that above the modal region(and transition region really), tonally what you hear is the anechoic response. The bass is mostly related to the room and interactions of modes, SBIR(boundary interference), and the position of your hearing organs. 

From an imaging perspective, things change a bit.

Until there is some defined "standard" in audio, there really can't really be an "accurate". That said, a flat frequency response means that the input and output are equal barring distortions.

Audyssey--or any of these "room EQs" really can't make your system more accurate above the modal/transition zone. It may help mismatches sound more similar--your guess is as good as mine.

I use EQ 20Hz up to 300Hz just b/c of the research. In all fairness, my Audyssey plots are not all that different from my raw response in room. A couple dB difference barring the Audyssey's top octave response. Audyssey definitely sounds muffled by comparison. Audyssey Flat actually does better in my room and with my speakers. Still, it boosts the frequency range where the speakers are already most sensitive anechoic--the opposite of what you'd want based on the research.

Dan


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## MagnusAtom (Oct 23, 2012)

A lot of the manufacturers measure speakers within 1meter of the speakers. And the typical standards is measured 20hz-20khz,+,- 3db. Which is really funny because it is proven we are able to hear 3db differences significantly. Those curves would just be guidelines-and help speakers look good. But one has got to understand the off-axis response, which is such a great mystery because they are hardly published to the consumers. This will help with selecting the 'right' speaker for the room, or select the appropriate acoustics to hear the best of the speakers.

It would sure be helpful for a body to ensure these paperwork is published one-way or the other. Perhaps CEDIA? 

Agree that Audyssey just helps tone by that much. 

Best is to build the system on the 'best' principles.


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

YES! The off axis stuff is very important as well. Not only in case you are not alone, but imaging and envelopment are related to it. It will certainly change the character of a speaker, how they react with the room, and how you set them up.

Dan


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## MagnusAtom (Oct 23, 2012)

DanTheMan said:


> YES! The off axis stuff is very important as well. Not only in case you are not alone, but imaging and envelopment are related to it. It will certainly change the character of a speaker, how they react with the room, and how you set them up.
> 
> Dan


Dan, you are The Man. ")


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Thank you Magnus. You definitely has a great grasp of this topic. Glad you are here!

Dan


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## MagnusAtom (Oct 23, 2012)

Happy to be in good company!


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

MagnusAtom said:


> ...one has got to understand the off-axis response, which is such a great mystery because they are hardly published to the consumers. This will help with selecting the 'right' speaker for the room, or select the appropriate acoustics to hear the best of the speakers.


Prodding at an older thread here, off-axis frequency response of speakers being the topic of interest...

What manufacturers DO publish off-axis response? Paradigm is one prominent manufacturer that does, Emotiva Pro does for their studio monitors. Any other that HTS-type-people are aware of? It would be interesting to start a list.


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Some pro JBL do. Geddes, linkwitz... That's all I know of. 

I think there has to be more.

Dan


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

Oh, the high end of Genelec and Klein&Hummel.


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## MagnusAtom (Oct 23, 2012)

AudiocRaver said:


> Prodding at an older thread here, off-axis frequency response of speakers being the topic of interest...
> 
> What manufacturers DO publish off-axis response? Paradigm is one prominent manufacturer that does, Emotiva Pro does for their studio monitors. Any other that HTS-type-people are aware of? It would be interesting to start a list.


Visiting some factories, I've seen some off-axis graphs, together with the on-axis. Though they aren't published for public viewing. 

Harman group's speakers have those, and I understand if you ask, they may just send those to you. 

Someone should build an anechoic chamber for rent for folks to lug their speakers for measurements! ")


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## rongon (Aug 23, 2012)

The other fly in the ointment is crossover design. Different crossover designs will change dispersion, phase of various frequencies, transient response around the crossover point (the "Q" of the filter), and all manner of other complicated stuff. 

Speakers are the most imperfect of our sound reproducing gear, by far. The reason "voicing" is not "baloney" is that every engineer/designer has to come up with a set of compromises that he/she finds pleasing with the drivers he/she has to work with. Also, the end product should please lots of other listeners, so that it will sell. 

Basically, you can look at it this way -- Speakers are _awful_. Each driver has grossly non-linear frequency response when compared to digital players and decent amplifiers. The passive components used in speaker crossovers have all sorts of problems, especially the inductors ("coils"). It takes a really talented engineer to do a good job of taming ragged frequency response, unwanted resonances, etc. I have a ton of respect for speaker designers. They have to deal not just with electronics, they have to know their physics, and how that interacts with the electronics. 

So, IMO... it really is a good idea to get a center speaker that matches the "tonality" or "voicing" of your fronts, so that they all sound of a piece, rather than having your center stick out like a sore thumb. Like, pretend you have a car driving from front-left, to center, to front-right. If the timbre (or "tone") of the center is much different than that of the fronts, you will hear the tone of the motor sound change as it goes across your sound field. That will call attention to the sound of your center speaker. The illusion will be broken, you'll feel that you're listening to three speakers in front of you, instead of a car driving from left to right in front of you. That breaks the spell for me. 

--


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## vann_d (Apr 7, 2009)

AudiocRaver said:


> Prodding at an older thread here, off-axis frequency response of speakers being the topic of interest...
> 
> What manufacturers DO publish off-axis response? Paradigm is one prominent manufacturer that does, Emotiva Pro does for their studio monitors. Any other that HTS-type-people are aware of? It would be interesting to start a list.





DanTheMan said:


> Some pro JBL do. Geddes, linkwitz... That's all I know of.
> 
> I think there has to be more.
> 
> Dan


This is part of the reason I'm choosing to use JBL Control 25's as surround speakers in my (in progress) basement build. Very detailed polar response plots are included in the specification which seemed to indicate to me that they are well designed and engineered speakers, despite what many may say of the Control series. The built in speaker mounting system didn't hurt either...:T


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## DanTheMan (Oct 12, 2009)

MagnusAtom said:


> Visiting some factories, I've seen some off-axis graphs, together with the on-axis. Though they aren't published for public viewing.
> 
> Harman group's speakers have those, and I understand if you ask, they may just send those to you.
> 
> Someone should build an anechoic chamber for rent for folks to lug their speakers for measurements! ")


I've done it, but haven't used it for that purpose. Plan on it when I get an opportunity.

Dan


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

As a continuation of the discussion on speaker directivity specs, and to create a resource list of manufacturers who specify directivity or off-axis response, see the Speakers with published off-axis frequency response specs thread in the Manufactured Speakers | Subwoofers > Home Audio Speakers forum. Please add any appropriate posts there. Thanks all for your contributions.

AudiocRaver


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