# Audyssey blew a woofer on SVS Ultra



## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Pretty sure of it. Was listening at -4db levels of some pink floyd and pooof.... the right 8" woofer on the left speaker scratches on kick drum punches at anything louder than -8db now.

it was after a calibration too. Not sure whats up. Gotta touch base with SVS on monday and look into if warranty will cover it or what.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

What crossover settings were you running for your mains?


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

60hz

The crazy part is I can go to direct mode and it's louder at the same DB setting with more bass and it doesn't do it.... and under some testing it does when you crank it up more and I only did that to confirm the woofer is damaged.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

-4db is really hot, did you confirm with an SPL meter that the levels were correct? If you were going beyond reference levels cooking a voice coil is always a possibility. You do also realize that in Direct mode you are running them full range because your then bypassing all settings.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

How is Audyssey at fault?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

gdstupak said:


> How is Audyssey at fault?


I have to agree, not Audyssey's fault


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

92db average on the meter with music during the track I was playing. I normally listen 82-85db but occasionally will crank it up. 85db is typically around -12db on the volume and -5db is typically around 92db. It may not have been audyssey but I never had an issue in direct mode which actually is quieter and required more volume to achieve same levels. The weird thing was there is more bass in direct mode due to the SVS Ultras being more bass heavy and audyssey tames it down to flat after testing.

Never had in issue in direct mode... I've cranked it up to 98db before for some ear plug loud testing. If I remember right that took around +3db on the volume to achieve those levels...

I remember when it took the woofer and I was listening at 92db pink floyd the track "two suns in the sunset" and was in stereo mode w/ audyssey using the subwoofer with a crossover of 60hz.

I dunno... maybe it didn't cause it but found it weird. Again, I normally listen around 84db is my personal like and will crank it up to around 90-92 but never felt like that was pushing the system. Never heard any restraint before... it just happened after an audyssey cal. Maybe it was a fluke something not sure.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Are you heard of hearing? 95db is really loud it's not surprising that you may have damaged a speaker. Reference is 75db with peaks of 85.
Of course direct mode has more bass as it is running your mains full range and sending frequencies well below the speakers capabilities to them and again at 90-98db that's going to be hard on them.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Are you heard of hearing? 95db is really loud it's not surprising that you may have damaged a speaker. Reference is 75db with peaks of 85.
> Of course direct mode has more bass as it is running your mains full range and sending frequencies well below the speakers capabilities to them and again at 90-98db that's going to be hard on them.


when I say 92db I'm talking about peaks... I fail to see how thats just some extrodinary loud level. at 92db peaks the music average is around 85db. When I listen at 84db the average levels are in the 78-80db range w/ peaks in the 84 range.

Again this is at listening position and using C weighted so the peaks are typically the bass.

Correct me if I'm wrong but reference is 95db peaks on speakers and 115db on the sub.... peaks. Thats too loud for listening for an entire movie... thats too long. I can listen to one track at 92db and feel OK about it but I'm not listening for more than one 4-5 minute track.

I also work in the petrochemical industry and am well aware of hearing conservation, db levels, duration, etc. I've been in enviroments that required double hearing protection. I wouldn't do anything to damage my hearing nor my equipment.

Edit: Sorry the THX reference is 85db with 20db headroom.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

*Audyssey is not to blame*

Pink Floyd does have some good Dynamic range but peaks in most music is very close to the average (minus Classical music).
Direct mode is great for music because the mains run full range and Audyssey is disable... unless your receiver has direct mode and pure direct mode.

SVS ultra's can handle a lot and will have no trouble with most music. Pink Floyd does have rolling bass which will heat your voice coils like crazy. I may of missed it but how long were you listening for?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

But your still not addressing my concern that you listening at those levels in direct mode....that is not great for speakers that are not designed for it for long periods of time. Also 90db at the listening position is going to be even hotter at the speaker particularly if your room has a lot of furniture and items that absorb sound.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Talley said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but reference is 95db peaks on speakers and 115db on the sub.... peaks. Thats too loud for listening for an entire movie... thats too long. I can listen to one track at 92db and feel OK about it but I'm not listening for more than one 4-5 minute track.


Music is different than movies. Unless you are playing a SACD or DVD-audio you will have no LFE track. The bass will be the same level as the speakers. I play my Classical music from -20 to 0db but any pop music I will only run up to -15db... -10db if I use crossovers to the sub and I'm in the other room. I can't imagine my mains playing full range at -4db. :yikes:


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Also 90db at the listening position is going to be even hotter at the speaker particularly if your room has a lot of furniture and items that absorb sound.


From what I remember his room is pretty live... unless he installed some panels.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ya, that's what I am saying, 98db is really loud for music. I might play one track that loud but not an entire album or for several hours. Most concerts run at 110db so your not that far off.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Blacklightning said:


> From what I remember his room is pretty live... unless he installed some panels.


Ya my room is empty for the most part except for the long couch and the four 24x48" panels one in each corner just laid against the wall forming a triangle.


Typically I listen to music in the -20 to the -12db range for long listening. For anything higher it's literally for one track.

How long was I listening to music when this happen.... about 20 minutes at around -15db and then I cranked it for the one song.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

I bought these from Sonnie and he even told me he regularly listens to the -12 to -8db on the receiver for movies which is hour+. I do nothing different then him and I got these from him.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

My guess would be that the 20 minutes at -15db got your coils warm and that one track pushed the temp too high. The good news is a quick driver swap will solve the problem.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Movies are never consistant at what levels they put out, music particularly rock and pop have very much more consistant levels. If you play an entire album at -4db it will stay at those levels the entire time.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Talley said:


> I bought these from Sonnie and he even told me he regularly listens to the -12 to -8db on the receiver for movies which is hour+. I do nothing different then him and I got these from him.


Movies are very different from Music and Music can vary.

Movies can have very high peaks but for 1-5 secs at most.
Music has a peak every sec for a split sec.

The worse is rolling bass for 30 secs or more.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I must be missing something in my own setup. I've always found direct and pure direct to be totally gutless. My mains are rated to 35hz with 12s in them. To be clear, I'm not looking for trunk rattling annoying super bass playback, but it just sounds so flat. Could this come down to preference? Sorry for the OT guys, but there's a lot of talk involving direct mode.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

We are all spoiled with the bass that our subs add, my EVs also have nice bass but no where near what adding the sub sounds like. And like you say in comparison sound thin.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> I must be missing something in my own setup. I've always found direct and pure direct to be totally gutless.


Some AVR's run the sub in direct with full range mains. Pure direct is no sub with mains running full range.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Blacklightning said:


> Some AVR's run the sub in direct with full range mains. Pure direct is no sub with mains running full range.


 Mine defeats the sub in both modes, and I've not seen one that runs the sub in direct mode, though I'll admit I haven't looked either. On my Onkyo pure direct is the same as direct, except it also shuts off the display, and video circuits. As Tony said, we do get spoiled by our subs. Not for the kick in the face necessarily, but for the smooth effortless augmentation.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Willis,

In direct mode these SVS Ultras are very bass heavy. Were are talking 8-10db+ under 80hz. Typically audyssey flattens this down.

Also dual 8" from what I was reading has the same output as a 15" driver. 

I'll contact SVS monday and probably just purchase a driver from them and swap myself. I don't want to ship the speaker out.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Talley, I'm not doubting you, but how does audyssey tame that in direct mode when direct mode defeats Audyssey? I've never even thought about REW in direct. I think I will next time.


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## natescriven (Jan 12, 2011)

Talley said:


> Also dual 8" from what I was reading has the same output as a 15" driver.


There are a lot of variables, but usually I've heard the equation as dual 8" equals one 10", maybe a 12".


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> Are you heard of hearing? 95db is really loud it's not surprising that you may have damaged a speaker. Reference is 75db with peaks of 85.
> Of course direct mode has more bass as it is running your mains full range and sending frequencies well below the speakers capabilities to them and again at 90-98db that's going to be hard on them.


I thought reference was 105 on peaks...


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Blacklightning said:


> Music is different than movies. Unless you are playing a SACD or DVD-audio you will have no LFE track. The bass will be the same level as the speakers. I play my Classical music from -20 to 0db but any pop music I will only run up to -15db... -10db if I use crossovers to the sub and I'm in the other room. I can't imagine my mains playing full range at -4db. :yikes:


We listened to The Talking Heads- Burning Down the House at 0 last night and it was so loud we didn't even listen to the whole track at that level. -20 is usually the level we listen at with -10 being a max for our 5.1 music tracks.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> Talley, I'm not doubting you, but how does audyssey tame that in direct mode when direct mode defeats Audyssey? I've never even thought about REW in direct. I think I will next time.



nonono... this happened with audyssey with the mode in music set to stereo so it uses the sub. In direct mode it's just the two speakers in full range...

and it doesn't do it in direct mode until it plays much louder which is hard for me to understand how I'm eliminating all the sub 60hz in stereo music mode using the subwoofer and it's having issues and thats because audyssey was on... and less bass.

switch to direct mode there is a alot more bass and it doesn't do it until it goes much louder now like +4db. 

If I disable audyssey it doesn't do it as bad either... just when audyssey is enabled.

I mean before it never did it but since that one blurp and I quickly turned it down now it'll do it anytime it's up loud... but let me repeat this:

music stereo mode w/ audyssey it does it at -8db now (with less bass overall than direct)
direct mode it does it at -2db (with more bass than music stereo w/ audyssey)


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Nope Audyssey is not at fault here. Too Loud Too Long or, something went into clipping and heated the voice coil which is now the scratching you hear. 
Two 8" woofer usually works as one 10" woofer but that is not a golden rule obviously, some speaker designers ask their woofers to move a bit more air so they can stand alone as a full range speaker. Direct will remove the crossover from the system and full range will generally go to the mains. One must be careful when it comes to some things, especially dynamics like Pink Floyd as they can do a whoopin on the entire system as you just found out. 
95db is somewhat arbitrary if your room is pretty larger, as it takes a boat load of power to make a pair of speakers go there.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I think you just lost a woofer. It happens. I wouldn't blame Audyssey because it probably would have happened with Audyssey off, you just will never know. I have blown a woofer or two in my life and always when pushing my system pretty hard. :bigsmile:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

ellisr63 said:


> I thought reference was 105 on peaks...


For multi channel yes but for music it is less as there is no dedicated LFE and music does not normally have the dynamic headroom that movies do ( thee are exceptions) but it's not the norm


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

So, talley do I understand you as saying your system has more bass output when in direct mode sans sub vs stereo with the HSU? I'm only trying to see if I am following you correctly.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> So, talley do I understand you as saying your system has more bass output when in direct mode sans sub vs stereo with the HSU? I'm only trying to see if I am following you correctly.


well... yes and no. Obviously with the sub I can crank it up and the HSU can definitely deliver but I have it integrated where it just fills the low end and is not the main attraction.

Here is what I'm talking about. NO SUB... Red is svs ultra in my room (null at 60hz was fixed by location afterwards) and you can see the sub 150hz is hot by up to 8db over the midrange. It's boomy and muddy's up the midrange to my taste. The yellow is audyssey. It tames the Ultras and brings them down to flat.... Boring flat... 

this is true with the sub turned on... it removes too much bass. You cannot just select +3db more on teh sub as it creates a platue like ridge and doesn't do a curve well.

This is the fault I see with Audyssey and is why I want to move to Dirac Live.... so I can select the curve that I want without having to trick settings.

SO... for me... less bass w/ audyssey


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Wow,that is quite a rise to about 45hz. I think that range would contribute to the muddiness as well. Too bad about your driver btw. I'm lucky in that my system curves pretty nicely with a +trim on the sub channel. Probably helped by having 3subs.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> Wow,that is quite a rise to about 45hz. I think that range would contribute to the muddiness as well. Too bad about your driver btw. I'm lucky in that my system curves pretty nicely with a +trim on the sub channel. Probably helped by having 3subs.


remember the graph above is no sub w/ direct mode vs. stereo and audyssey. Audyssey does tame it down but it's done too much and there is no way to adjust it without a sub other than adjusting the bass +/- from the tone portion in the audyssey menu but I don't touch that.

for me adjusting the sub into the + category creates a graph like this.... 

not really a curve just a jump up in the low end and I'd rather see a nice curve. I'm thinking Dirac is the better way to go.


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## primetimeguy (Jun 3, 2006)

That major upper bass dip around 150hz is helping you, possibly a phase or distance issue with the sub? 

Have you tried Dynamic EQ to give you that more gradual rise in the bass starting in the 200hz range?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yeah talley I see what you mean. I can trim on the fly with about 4button pushes. (I only ever do on music) If I don't trim back it defaults to where it is set in the menu with a power cycle. As mentioned dynamicEQ might work, but for me it makes my surrounds too hot. (And the bass a little too).


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

primetimeguy said:


> That major upper bass dip around 150hz is helping you, possibly a phase or distance issue with the sub?
> 
> Have you tried Dynamic EQ to give you that more gradual rise in the bass starting in the 200hz range?


ya it was... it's my left channel, I don't get it anywhere else with the other channels and I can move the left channel all around in a 3'x3' square and it's always there.

Could be the reason why it blew the speaker maybe audyssey is boosting too much in that region.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Most curious, I understand your issue but have not experienced it myself. Audyssey has been very straight forward in what it does once set. There must be something in the processor that is raising the bottom end like that, some hidden setting. Hmmmm


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I presume this is a SVS Ultra tower that has the failed driver ?
The spec sheet claims +/-3dB 28Hz-38kHz.
Since there is no frequency response curve of the speaker it's possible (maybe likely) 28Hz could be -6dB depending on where the reference line is drawn.
It doesn't really matter, even if 28Hz is only -3dB the speaker will be rolling off hard below that and the frequency response graphs posted (sans subwoofer) show that is not the case.
A tremendous amount of EQ has been applied to get that kind of measured response.
If the speaker was subjected to high levels it was simply asked to o something it is incapable of doing.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

chashint said:


> I presume this is a SVS Ultra tower that has the failed driver ?
> The spec sheet claims +/-3dB 28Hz-38kHz.
> Since there is no frequency response curve of the speaker it's possible (maybe likely) 28Hz could be -6dB depending on where the reference line is drawn.
> It doesn't really matter, even if 28Hz is only -3dB the speaker will be rolling off hard below that and the frequency response graphs posted (sans subwoofer) show that is not the case.
> ...



Never had an issue in direct mode... this happened with audyssy enabled using a subwoofer at 60hz crossover. The graph I posted was just showing the direct mode FR vs. audyssey corrected (without sub) response. As you can see anything sub 35hz is really equal. Maybe audyssey is boosting sub 30hz but without a doubt it was removing bass in the 50hz range.

Now... with a crossover at 60hz why did this happen? Still too loud etc stuff I keep hearing. I really don't feel it was crazy loud at all. I was hitting 92db peaks on the kick drum but the rest of the music would hover around the 86/87db range.

Everyone keeps throwing out all this stuff and the one guy tcarcio said it best... I just lost a woofer "it happens". 

I think one solution for me is to move to dual subs and have them placed near the speakers and have the crossover set to around 80-100hz. Would provide more headroom and ensure this wouldn't happen again.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Talley said:


> Pretty sure of it. Was listening at -4db levels of some pink floyd and pooof.... the right 8" woofer on the left speaker scratches on kick drum punches at anything louder than -8db now.
> 
> it was after a calibration too. Not sure whats up. Gotta touch base with SVS on monday and look into if warranty will cover it or what.





Talley said:


> 60hz
> 
> The crazy part is I can go to direct mode and it's louder at the same DB setting with more bass and it doesn't do it.... and under some testing it does when you crank it up more and I only did that to confirm the woofer is damaged.





Talley said:


> NO SUB... Red is svs ultra in my room (null at 60hz was fixed by location afterwards) and you can see the sub 150hz is hot by up to 8db over the midrange. It's boomy and muddy's up the midrange to my taste. The yellow is audyssey. It tames the Ultras and brings them down to flat.... Boring flat...
> 
> SO... for me... less bass w/ audyssey


OKay, I misread your previous post. You were NOT running in direct mode and you did in fact have Audyssey running. 

From the graph that you posted it looks like it was the higher bass frequencies (200-300hz) that got boosted by Audyssey and like the Universe if suffered a slow heat death.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Understood. Need to figure out how to resolve this issue otherwise.

So is it normal for the speaker to play fine until a certain loudness now? Plays fine quieter than -8db.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Blacklightning said:


> OKay, I misread your previous post. You were NOT running in direct mode and you did in fact have Audyssey running.
> 
> From the graph that you posted it looks like it was the higher bass frequencies (200-300hz) that got boosted by Audyssey and like the Universe if suffered a slow heat death.


Oh this just clicked. The Ultras dual 8" woofers crossover to the midranges at 160hz. So in theory the woofers was only seeing 60hz to 160hz. 

The speakers still play and they play at normal levels just fine. It's just the kick drum (~60hz) that it will do the scratch on and it's only one woofer out of the pair on the one speaker IF I play it louder than -8db now. Which I haven't since it happened.

This is why I'm thinking dual subs and running the subs a little higher around 80-100 and would free up some of that load on the ultras.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I tried to follow the details before I posted anything, but I did miss this happened (was noticed) while using the system with the sub enabled.

Bottom line is you have a broken speaker and that has to be very disappointing.

I guess every speaker has the potential to fail but under the conditions you have described this is very interesting.

In room, with both speakers and a sub playing the SPL described really should not be putting any undue strain on the speakers or the sub.
Yes it was probably loud but the volume couldn't have been anywhere close to 11.

I might ask for both drivers to be replaced in that speaker under warranty since they were both subjected to the same signal.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Talley said:


> This is why I'm thinking dual subs and running the subs a little higher around 80-100 and would free up some of that load on the ultras.


Or maybe do not run your system at -4db for Music. lddude:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Talley, at any point have you ever run test tones through your speakers particularly ones from 20-80Hz


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> Talley, at any point have you ever run test tones through your speakers particularly ones from 20-80Hz


Just the REW sweep at 85db on my SPL meter... I think this was around -15db on the volume on the receiver if I remember right.

Never a pure sine wave single hz tone.... never. Not on my speakers anyway


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

You have to be carful also with sweeps in that range also. If you do too many of them your going to overheat the drivers. Not saying that that's the cause but certainly one of several possibilities. 

You said above that you have been running with audyessy but just a few pages ago you said that you have also been running direct. Two very different situations.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> You have to be carful also with sweeps in that range also. If you do too many of them your going to overheat the drivers. Not saying that that's the cause but certainly one of several possibilities.
> 
> You said above that you have been running with audyessy but just a few pages ago you said that you have also been running direct. Two very different situations.


I go back and forth depending. I like the Direct mode better on the bass but it does muddy up the midrange and audyssey improves SSI but kills the bass and I struggle trying to find a happy medium.

I don't listen to music at those levels all the time. My normal listening on average is anywhere from -25db to -15db and occasionally -8db for some tracks that are recorded softer and on movies I am normally -20 to -15 unless it's a move like fury then I'm at -8db.

I always have an SPL meter when I listen next to me and I adjust the volume so the SPL meter bounces between 78-85db for music playback. This is where I listen. 78db being the low part and 85db being the peak. Most of the time this is -20db to -12db depending on the recording. The only thing I did differently was hitting 92db peaks during that one track when it happened.

It's not the limit of the system. It's not even loud. 92 peaks and was around 84db on the low is indeed louder than normal critical listening but it's not mind blowing loud.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Talley said:


> .... It's not even loud. 92 peaks and was around 84db on the low is indeed louder than normal critical listening but it's not mind blowing loud.


I agree.
I listen at these levels (when my wife isn't home) and I am not hard of hearing. 85db from my JBL's doesn't hurt my ears, it sounds good, and I've often turned it up louder than that for a few minutes at a time (_Five Finger Death Punch, Rage Against the Machine_...). After 20 mins continuous it will start aching, so yes, I know it is too loud, and then I lower the volume.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I don't know why the speaker failed but I don't think you were listening at excessive volume.
If we can't turn it up once in a while why spend the money to have it.
Considering the published specs of the speakers, the pictures you have posted of your room, and the SPL measured my WAG on the output power is 32-64 Watts.
You have excellent electronics and speakers rated up to 300 Watts.
Nothing should have been in the danger zone.

Have you contacted SVS yet?


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

chashint said:


> I don't know why the speaker failed but I don't think you were listening at excessive volume.
> If we can't turn it up once in a while why spend the money to have it.
> Considering the published specs of the speakers, the pictures you have posted of your room, and the SPL measured my WAG on the output power is 32-64 Watts.
> You have excellent electronics and speakers rated up to 300 Watts.
> ...


I haven't yet... forgot to grab the serial # before I left for work. I'll contact them tomorrow.

I think it's just a fluke and just happened.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Covered under warranty.

So the deal is I'm having to pay for the woofer itself, they will cross ship. I get the good one, user replaceable and then send the defective one back to them and when they receive it they refund my money. FYI... the cost they are charging for the woofer is $59.99

I'm pleased. They were very polite and helpful and I even disclosed all that I mentioned here and they even said that the speaker should not have been stressed under these conditions to have failed like that.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Nice! SVS CS!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

willis7469 said:


> Nice! SVS CS!


:TT


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