# Retailer Silly Sales Pitches



## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

While this thread does not fit completely in this topic area, I was hoping that others would share their stories of ridiculous claims made by sales people..

During one visit to a national retailer, the sales rep made two amazing claims within moments of each other:

1) A plasma set needs better HDMI cables than a LCD set because the Plasma set has a much higher refresh rate. Without those very expensive cables, the Blu Ray player will not be able to pass the 600 Hz on through.

2) An A/B amp is more likely to blow a speaker because at 1/3 volume, the speakers are directly connected to the wall plug.

I tried to refute 1) by explaining that the player passes on the same signal no matter what is connected and the refresh rate is generated within the TV but gave up. When he hit me with 2), I was polite enough to wait until I was outside to break into hysterical laughter.


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## cavchameleon (Jan 7, 2008)

This thread could develop into one of the funniest ones...

As far as your cable experience, I've seen that a LOT at Best Buy and other places - trying to sell you HDMI cables that cost half of what the bluray player cost.

On another note - I've seen (at high end stores) sales people trying to sell very high end power cables - yes, power cables. They claim "your bass will be deaper, your mids more detailed, and your highs crisper". Then I mention that it's plugged into a 50 cent outlet connected to 14AWG Romex which runs to your breaker box (could be 100' or so). How can the last 3'-6' high end power cable improve the power. They try to defend it on many levels be then have a hard time when you mention that the same power still has to go through the transformer and filters in the Amp/AVR and endes up the same on the output. 

I really wonder where some of them learn their 'science' when it comes to AV. There really is a lot of snake oil in the business. I always come back to the two main things that really make a difference in sound: the speakers and the room.


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## telemike (Apr 8, 2013)

If a cable is said to have bass slam, does that mean you can measure a +2 db bump at 50hz? It amuses me that expensive cables can affect frequency response, yet cannot be measured. How can a power cord affect frequency response?


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## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

telemike said:


> If a cable is said to have bass slam, does that mean you can measure a +2 db bump at 50hz? It amuses me that expensive cables can affect frequency response, yet cannot be measured. How can a power cord affect frequency response?


Precisely, as you infer, the power cord cannot make a difference. I suppose a power cord could make an amp sound much worse, if it was highly resistive. That would also make the power cord overheat and become a toaster oven. But a power cord cannot make an amp sound better.

I keep waiting for some gov agency to sue some of these well know companies who claim their cables sound better. They are selling the proverbial snake oil.

So many of these products go back to the analog days. Then it was possible to make a claim that thicker cables or gold ends might, just maybe, make a difference or be more reliable. Or those anti-vibration disks on LPs maybe reduced rumble. But when the world of digital arrived, these poor companies just had to make stuff up.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

I am one of those who is satisfied with a basic IEC cord from Radio Shack or Monoprice. 

Some say a power cord will provide cleaner power to the Amplifier which in turn provides less distortion and power related noise (humm, buzz etc.). But In no way will it provide you with clearer highs.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

It becomes difficult to carry on a conversation with a sales person when they start saying things like that. At least you can tell very quickly that you are not going to get any real help from them and can basically ignore all they say, so that's a plus.


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## steve1616 (Apr 6, 2009)

The power cables always did make me laugh. I remember telling a salesman that I would contact my power company and pay them to change all of their aluminum power cables to oxygen free copper so that I could enjoy better sound. I then said, oh crud, what am I gonna do about the temperature changes and precipitation forcasts. These things obviously affect my listening experience. I think the salesman might have gotten the idea that I thought he was an idiot.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

The thing to remember is that many of these salesmen do believe this stuff. They have been told these things and have no real understanding of the physics and electronics. Their job is to make sales, not to educate nor to evaluate critically. Propagating myths that are convenient to ones purpose is nothing new nor unique to the electronics business. Neither is passing on what is convenient to believe.


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## mlundy57 (May 21, 2013)

The power cord theme seems to be universal. I recently bought a used integrated amp for $300. After I paid for the amp I was told that now I needed a $700 power cable. I told the salesman that I didn't think a power cable could make any real difference but that I was willing to be proven wrong if he cared to demonstrate. Strangely enough, he didn't.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

I remember when I bought my first AVR, the salesman told me the rule of thumb is to spend 10% of the cost of your system on cables. And he recommended Monster Cables of course! Thank goodness for Monoprice.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

I'd say 1% might be reasonable for a normal stand alone system. If you are doing wiring for a whole house with automation, 10% is more reasonable.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Tonto said:


> I remember when I bought my first AVR, the salesman told me the rule of thumb is to spend 10% of the cost of your system on cables. And he recommended Monster Cables of course! Thank goodness for Monoprice.


Before monoprice and occasionally to this day, I rely on Steren Python cables. I've owned quite a few RGBHV cables over the years including monster, which was better than stock but no where near as good as the lower priced thicker Steren RGBHV cable. The high resolution image stability and picture quality went from lightly blurred to laser printer sharp. The same is true for their component cables and regular stereo RCA cables; solid build quality at prices lower than Radio Shack's cheapest.


Edit: I forgot to mention the Steren RGBHV cables were much cheaper than the Monster cable they replaced


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## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

A lot of the suspect sales pitches come from the days of analog. But they seemed to get desperate when digital hit. Anyone remember the yellow highlighter to be used on CD's? Or the stabilizer rings to glue on the CD? I once saw a CD player made out of granite that was supposed to be more stable and sound better.

Every once in a while, I see the silliest things that might actually sound different (better is subjective). Like the CD player with a tube stage. Since tubes can induce even order harmonic distortion, it could sound different I suppose. But it sure seemed silly for a digital component like a CD player to have that warm tube glow. And if the buyer is that fanatical about tubes, they are likely going to pair it with a tube amp / preamp anyway.

I am amazed at the cable companies never got sued. I guess the government considered them small potatoes, while purchasers would never admit that they have been had.

A $700 power cord indeed! LOL!


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

TheHammer said:


> A lot of the suspect sales pitches come from the days of analog. But they seemed to get desperate when digital hit. Anyone remember the yellow highlighter to be used on CD's? Or the stabilizer rings to glue on the CD? * I once saw a CD player made out of granite* that was supposed to be more stable and sound better.
> 
> Every once in a while, I see the silliest things that might actually sound different (better is subjective). Like the CD player with a tube stage. Since tubes can induce even order harmonic distortion, it could sound different I suppose. But it sure seemed silly for a digital component like a CD player to have that warm tube glow. And if the buyer is that fanatical about tubes, they are likely going to pair it with a tube amp / preamp anyway.
> 
> ...


Waaa?

Do you have a model number and URL for such a crazy CD player? I can imagine a heavy CD player made of thick copper plates and a dense steel base having a very small improvement on sound but granite probably wouldn't offer the same level of performance against electromagnetic interference. On some levels the added mass would help protect against some bumps and heavy bass; but other than that granite would be more of an aesthetic enhancement.


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## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

I cannot imagine any mass added to a CD player improving the sound. Mass could help prevent skipping, but I would refrain from placing the CD player on a subwoofer. 

I saw this CD player at a "high end" retailer located on Concord Pike in Wilmington, Delaware, a few years after CD were introduced. The store is still there. I suspect the CD player is long gone.

Interesting, I did find this though. It cracks me up.

http://www.graniteaudio.com/cd/

Also:

Granite or Slate as a material under some kit is beneficial to sound quality. Interestingly Micromega was one of the first companies to recommend using it under there top-loading CD players such as the CDF1 DUO and the TRIO. If I remember right (?) I think the Trio used granite in one part and energy sinking spikes to remove any excess vibration. The ART 1 CD player uses granite in its base and an American company called Barclay made CD players with Granite and Corian as a main part of the case work.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-4590.html

Color me dubious. And I am being nice. 

Cheers.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

TheHammer said:


> I cannot imagine any mass added to a CD player improving the sound. Mass could help prevent skipping, but I would refrain from placing the CD player on a subwoofer.
> 
> I saw this CD player at a "high end" retailer located on Concord Pike in Wilmington, Delaware, a few years after CD were introduced. The store is still there. I suspect the CD player is long gone.
> 
> ...


High mass in the form of copper plates and steel chassis can help keep electrical noises to a minimum and as you said, keep the skipping to a minimum.


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

TheHammer said:


> Precisely, as you infer, the power cord cannot make a difference. I suppose a power cord could make an amp sound much worse, if it was highly resistive. That would also make the power cord overheat and become a toaster oven. But a power cord cannot make an amp sound better.


The "power cable" that came with my new PIONEER SC35 last year was so cheap looking - like $2 lamp chord quality - that I did by a premium power cable just to have a little piece of mind...:bigsmile:


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## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

8086 said:


> High mass in the form of copper plates and steel chassis can help keep electrical noises to a minimum and as you said, keep the skipping to a minimum.


I am not aware of CD skipping due to vibration being a common problem. Worse, the granite pushers were claiming cleaner sound, which demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the differences between digital and analog.

Copper plates would have a similar value in a CD player that they do in an amp. Lower level analog signals, such as those coming out of a D to A converter could be contaminated by noise. That said, these lower level analog signals are relatively high level (compared for example to phono input) and therefore less likely to be affected. Amp and CD manufacturers seem to be able to supply pretty good S/N ratios without resorting to massive, expensive and wasteful copper plates. So one has to wonder why a high end manufacturer would tout any advantage to using copper plates. I would suggest it is marketing, or a solution in search of a problem. Or worse, "there is a sucker born every minute."


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

And while were on the subject of B&M stores offering up some real HI END equipment.... don't miss BEST BUY weekly special on the 10' AUDIOQUEST USB A-to-Mini USB Cable - Black/Coffee for only $495.95 :rofl: this is the claim "Helps eliminate timing errors and soundstage smearing caused by insulation material interaction." ARE YOU KIDDING ME ???


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## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

RTS100x5 said:


> The "power cable" that came with my new PIONEER SC35 last year was so cheap looking - like $2 lamp chord quality - that I did by a premium power cable just to have a little piece of mind...:bigsmile:


There is nothing wrong with paying money to have a little piece of mind. 

One way to test if the power cord was needed would be to crank that amp up and play it until your ears bleed. Then see if the power cord gets warm to the touch. If it does, then the resistance in the cord could be reducing available power to the amp which might affect it a little. A better, but more complicated (and hazardous) way would be to measure the AC voltage at the power plug, the transformer (while at full volume) and also at the main circuit box in the house. 

There could be a significant voltage drop from the main circuit box to the plug, if the run is long. Also, I have seen people have problems in the summer when their central AC powers on and off, with computers (or appliances with CPUs in them) rebooting.

But the easiest is to check what the gauge is of the power cord and compare that to the rated power draw of the appliance.

http://phd.boschsecurity.com/wiregage_cal.cfm

http://electrical.about.com/od/wiringcircuitry/a/electwiresizes.htm

There have been times where I have had a damaged power cord and I have found the gauge and quality of those supplied with discarded desktop computers to be excellent.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

TheHammer said:


> I am not aware of CD skipping due to vibration being a common problem. Worse, the granite pushers were claiming cleaner sound, which demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of the differences between digital and analog.
> 
> Copper plates would have a similar value in a CD player that they do in an amp. Lower level analog signals, such as those coming out of a D to A converter could be contaminated by noise. That said, these lower level analog signals are relatively high level (compared for example to phono input) and therefore less likely to be affected. Amp and CD manufacturers seem to be able to supply pretty good S/N ratios without resorting to massive, expensive and wasteful copper plates. So one has to wonder why a high end manufacturer would tout any advantage to using copper plates. I would suggest it is marketing, or a solution in search of a problem. Or worse, "there is a sucker born every minute."


Back in my dormitory days my friends and I had issues when the cerwin vega's heavy bass notes would slam and the CD player would skip a track or two. I've also experienced this problem with some phonographs as well.


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## TheHammer (Dec 16, 2012)

RTS100x5 said:


> And while were on the subject of B&M stores offering up some real HI END equipment.... don't miss BEST BUY weekly special on the 10' AUDIOQUEST USB A-to-Mini USB Cable - Black/Coffee for only $495.95 :rofl: this is the claim "Helps eliminate timing errors and soundstage smearing caused by insulation material interaction." ARE YOU KIDDING ME ???


I had never heard of this until your post. I am amazed.

There should be a requirement for all manufacturers to back up their claims using an approved scientific procedure. I suspect this is all snake oil, but would like someone to do a double blind or ABX test to prove it one way or the other. Any sonic claims involving the digital domain is absolutely suspect.

I lost all respect from Crutchfield with this listing:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-FpGVEC54oiR/p_703CAUSB10/AudioQuest-Carbon-3-meters-10-feet.html


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