# Denon Release New AVR Series



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Denon has announced that they are soon to bring to market a very price conscious set of AVR's called the E-Series. The top model is the $599 MSRP AVR-E400. There is also an E300 and E200 rounding out the trio.

The 300 and 400 both also offer AirPlay Support at a very low price. Here are a few links with some more information:http://www.customretailer.net/article/denon-debuts-e-series-receivers-25058504/1
http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/denon-e-series-receivers/
http://www.electronichouse.com/article/denon_releases_affordable_e-series_receivers/
Cheers,
JJ


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## JDEaston (Dec 30, 2011)

Doesn't the E400 retail for $599?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

It does indeed. My bad. I will change that immediately.


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## JDEaston (Dec 30, 2011)

Does anyone else think the 185 watt "maximum rating" is a little ridiculous, to say the least, for a 90wpc receiver?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

JDEaston said:


> Does anyone else think.the 185 watt "maximum rating" is a little ridiculous, to say the least, for a 90wpc receiver?


It certainly seems mighty optimistic. Especially considering how much cheaper they are than the CI Series.
It does stand to reason that the Warranty will be 2 years as opposed to the 3 year warranty offered by the CI's. This seems to me more like competing with Onkyo at the lower end of the AVR market in terms of features.


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## JDEaston (Dec 30, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> It certainly seems mighty optimistic. Especially considering how much cheaper they are than the CI Series.
> It does stand to reason that the Warranty will be 2 years as opposed to the 3 year warranty offered by the CI's. This seems to me more like competing with Onkyo at the lower end of the AVR market in terms of features.


Optimistic or absurd?..

Before I go any further I would like to say I have always respected Denon as a brand. But to claim 185wpc on a 90 wpc avr is a little more than ridiculous.

They are also claiming that spring loaded binding posts that only accept bare wire are superior to 5-way binding posts, even though they cost twice as much to produce. I just don't get it.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

JDEaston said:


> Optimistic or absurd?..
> 
> Before I go any further I would like to say I have always respected Denon as a brand. But to claim 185wpc on a 90 wpc avr is a little more than ridiculous.
> 
> They are also claiming that spring loaded binding posts that only accept bare wire are superior to 5-way binding posts, even though they cost twice as much to produce. I just don't get it.


I reckon it can probably produce 185 watts into one or perhaps 2 channels. This is aimed at the entry level market. Thus the spring clips, etc. In lieu of such necessities to many of us, they provide things like AirPlay, Networked Functionality, etc...


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## JDEaston (Dec 30, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> I reckon it can probably produce 185 watts into one or perhaps 2 channels. This is aimed at the entry level market. Thus the spring clips, etc. In lieu of such necessities to many of us, they provide things like AirPlay, Networked Functionality, etc...


Probably as in what? A half a second burst of dynamic power at 4ohms? Or are you claiming an entry level avr can produce 35wpc more that the flagship 

The flagship avr, the 4520 produces 150wpc at 8ohm. It's absurd to think an entry level avr of the same brand is capable of 35wpc more than the flagship model.

It's just not true. It is a marketing tactic that consumers should be made aware of!!!


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

JDEaston said:


> Probably as in what? A half a second burst of dynamic power at 4ohms? Or are you claiming an entry level avr can produce 35wpc more that the flagship
> 
> The flagship avr, the 4520 produces 150wpc at 8ohm. It's absurd to think an entry level avr of the same brand is capable of 35wpc more than the flagship model.
> 
> It's just not true. It is a marketing tactic that consumers should be made aware of!!!


You are missing the "Maximum Rating" part of this conversation. While I have not looked at the specs as this has just been put out today, I have posted probably 1000 times lamenting just how far off AVR ratings are. However, "Maximum" and "Peak" power ratings are often derived by testing a single channel of a 5 or 7 channel AVR into usually a relatively benign 6 ohm load. In Europe and elsewhere, the power ratings are more optimistic than here as they use the 6 ohm power rating.

Believe me, I know full well this rating is not applicable to 5 or 7 channels and perhaps if you looked at more of my posts you would actually see we are on the same page.


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

I usually go by the power supply rating on the back. If an amp is rated for 3A draw max on the back (360W total) but then claims 7x100W all channels driven, I scratch my head. I understand a momentary burst over the rating (on one or two channels), but some of the claims are ridiculous.


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## jevans64 (Dec 24, 2012)

Anthony said:


> I usually go by the power supply rating on the back. If an amp is rated for 3A draw max on the back (360W total) but then claims 7x100W all channels driven, I scratch my head. I understand a momentary burst over the rating (on one or two channels), but some of the claims are ridiculous.


Yes. I laugh when folks say their AVR can do 150W x 7 when the wattage on the back says 670 watts. My 7-channel receiver says 11 amps and my 5-channel amplifier says 3500 watts on the backplate. I think I'm good to go.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Wattage ratings on the rear of the receiver have little barring on how much power it can produce as there is much more in play like the efficiency of the power supply and the type of amps used. The Denon's listed will almost certainly use A/B switching amps (the most inefficient but cheapest to make) If your 5 channel amp says 3500watts on the backplate it would be tripping the breaker all the time as a 15amp breaker can only handle 1600 watts max.
I highly doubt that even the E400 would output 60 watts continuous all channels driven without distortion.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> Wattage ratings on the rear of the receiver have little barring on how much power it can produce as there is much more in play like the efficiency of the power supply and the type of amps used. The Denon's listed will almost certainly use A/B switching amps (the most inefficient but cheapest to make) If your 5 channel amp says 3500watts on the backplate it would be tripping the breaker all the time as a 15amp breaker can only handle 1600 watts max.
> I highly doubt that even the E400 would output 60 watts continuous all channels driven without distortion.


As always. I am in full accord with Tony. I really should make that my first "Canned Reply". For my friends who I have helped build more ambitious HT's I have always had to make a huge point about the need for ideally at least 2 dedicated 20 amp Circuits for the HT. And ideally using Copper Wire as opposed to Aluminum. Always fun to get into with Electricians and Contractors too. Though I should think both would love the added expense.


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## jevans64 (Dec 24, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> Wattage ratings on the rear of the receiver have little barring on how much power it can produce as there is much more in play like the efficiency of the power supply and the type of amps used. The Denon's listed will almost certainly use A/B switching amps (the most inefficient but cheapest to make) If your 5 channel amp says 3500watts on the backplate it would be tripping the breaker all the time as a 15amp breaker can only handle 1600 watts max.
> I highly doubt that even the E400 would output 60 watts continuous all channels driven without distortion.


Oh yes. I totally agree. Class A/B is somewhere in the 50 to 60 percent efficient. I was mainly pointing out that the backplate would closely match whatever *power supply* was inside minus a bit for overhead to power the electronics. My amp has a 3.3 kVA power supply and is output-rated at 2000 watts. Since it only has a single 20-amp cord, I doubt I'll even be able to tap its full power without modifying it to take power from two 20-amp circuits. I have dedicated FIVE 20-amp circuits for my A/V room and that leaves me one spare 20-amp for future use. I was planning on getting a D-Sonic M2-3500-7, which has two 20-amp cords, but ended up with an Emotiva XPR-5 instead.

In the case of the Denon E400, I doubt it is even good for 60 watts x 7. Most receivers with 460 watt ratings will actually deliver only around 45 watts x 7 if they are Class A/B or H. Class D will be a bit more but nowhere near the 90 WPC Denon claims.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

JDEaston said:


> Does anyone else think the 185 watt "maximum rating" is a little ridiculous, to say the least, for a 90wpc receiver?




My prediction for the future is that engineering depertments will step aside to the _styling_ (comes in many colors) and marketing departments will the major factors in the purchase of low end audio equipment in the future by Joe Consumer. 



As more people buy flat panel HD TVs, more people want to take advantage of the 5.1 signal; Just like we saw when PCs started becoming common place your average residence as the internet was starting to become popular. 

It seems like Denon and Onkyo are on a race to the bottom. I think the overall AVR business is going the same direction as the PC biz. In the 1990s We went from overly engineered IBMs (think metal framed Clicky Keyboards and Butterfly Laptops) to low end flimsy, cheap as possible, desktops made from thin plastic. Who will be the new apple of the AVR audio world? I think it will be Yamaha who's always had a thing for quality and doing stuff their own independent way .


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

8086 said:


> It seems like Denon and Onkyo are on a race to the bottom.


Not sure I agree, Particularly Onkyo has been on the top of the pile for years. They still offer much more than the competitors and reliability is about the same as every other brand out there other than they sell far more so you will tend to see more bad units.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

8086 said:


> My prediction for the future is that engineering depertments will step aside to the styling (comes in many colors) and marketing departments will the major factors in the purchase of low end audio equipment in the future by Joe Consumer.
> 
> As more people buy flat panel HD TVs, more people want to take advantage of the 5.1 signal; Just like we saw when PCs started becoming common place your average residence as the internet was starting to become popular.
> 
> It seems like Denon and Onkyo are on a race to the bottom. I think the overall AVR business is going the same direction as the PC biz. In the 1990s We went from overly engineered IBMs (think metal framed Clicky Keyboards and Butterfly Laptops) to low end flimsy, cheap as possible, desktops made from thin plastic. Who will be the new apple of the AVR audio world? I think it will be Yamaha who's always had a thing for quality and doing stuff their own independent way .


Interesting to say the least.


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## JDEaston (Dec 30, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Not sure I agree, Particularly Onkyo has been on the top of the pile for years. They still offer much more than the competitors and reliability is about the same as every other brand out there other than they sell far more so you will tend to see more bad units.


I disagree about them having the same reliability as other brands. It's not often that manufacturers issue recalls or extend warranties, but when they do it is because an above average percentage of manufactured units are affected. While I applaud Onkyo for acknowledging the problems they have had, it still screams reliability problems. That said, Onkyo is still a great value as far as features and amplification. But just like everything else in life, you get what you pay for as far as build quality is concerned.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

JDEaston said:


> I disagree about them having the same reliability as other brands. It's not often that manufacturers issue recalls or extend warranties, but when they do it is because an above average percentage of manufactured units are affected. While I applaud Onkyo for acknowledging the problems they have had, it still screams reliability problems. That said, Onkyo is still a great value as far as features and amplification. But just like everything else in life, you get what you pay for as far as build quality is concerned.


I have two Onkyo Integras and have noticed quite a few glitches in their operation. I am not the only one and feel that their reliability is being sacrificed for the sake of badge engineering (labels on the front). They are a great value, but something has to give. 

http://www.customerservicescoreboard.com/Onkyo


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I dont put much if any faith in those review places, you know as well as I do that happy customers rarely leave comments in places like that.
Look at Yamaha
Pioneer
Sony
See what I mean


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> I dont put much if any faith in those review places, you know as well as I do that *happy customers rarely leave comments* in places like that.
> Look at Yamaha
> Pioneer
> Sony
> See what I mean



You are correct.


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## JDEaston (Dec 30, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> I dont put much if any faith in those review places, you know as well as I do that happy customers rarely leave comments in places like that.
> Look at Yamaha
> Pioneer
> Sony
> See what I mean


I don't put faith in reviews from the average consumer either. One thing that stands out however are the number of recalls. Manufacturers do not recall something unless they absolutely have to.


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

8086 said:


> My prediction for the future is that engineering depertments will step aside to the styling (comes in many colors) and marketing departments will the major factors in the purchase of low end audio equipment in the future by Joe Consumer.
> 
> As more people buy flat panel HD TVs, more people want to take advantage of the 5.1 signal; Just like we saw when PCs started becoming common place your average residence as the internet was starting to become popular.
> 
> It seems like Denon and Onkyo are on a race to the bottom. I think the overall AVR business is going the same direction as the PC biz. In the 1990s We went from overly engineered IBMs (think metal framed Clicky Keyboards and Butterfly Laptops) to low end flimsy, cheap as possible, desktops made from thin plastic. Who will be the new apple of the AVR audio world? I think it will be Yamaha who's always had a thing for quality and doing stuff their own independent way .


Unfortunately, I tend to agree with this in a sense. Manufacturers, while trying to keep up with today's increasingly demanding customers, have to spread their research and manufacturing $$$ in much more areas then before. Build quality and amplification seems to give way to networking, home automation, countless app support and PS3 like GUIs. All this while their operating budget is staying the same or diminishing. 

The way around that is licensing. But again, when most moneys goes this route, cuts has to be made somewhere and it tends to be at the manufacturing level, especially QC as it is not a "feature" that sells merchandise. I don't recall my sister buying her first AVR because it had a "superior quality control" sticker on it but rather because it had boatloads of online content and was an iDevice slave


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

8086 said:


> I have two Onkyo Integras and have noticed quite a few glitches in their operation. I am not the only one and feel that their reliability is being sacrificed for the sake of badge engineering (labels on the front). They are a great value, but something has to give.
> 
> http://www.customerservicescoreboard.com/Onkyo


Hello,
That site is a joke. If nothing else, there are far too few reviews for the ratings to be meaningful. To see companies like Yamaha getting bad scores like that just does not jive with all of the Yamaha Owners Threads spanning multiple models and forums.
Cheers,
JJ


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> That site is a joke. If nothing else, there are far too few reviews for the ratings to be meaningful. To see companies like Yamaha getting bad scores like that just does not jive with all of the Yamaha Owners Threads spanning multiple models and forums.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I do agree. Those sites are less than perfect. No happy customers ever take the time to leave positive reviews. But I think their top 10 list does hold some merit in the fact that it does coincide with user reviews and reports on forums and the fact that BOSE is high on that list, a company I have positively dealt with on a few occasions. The same with Logitech, every time I have called it has been a no hassle breeze to get a replacement. Microsoft has also been very good to me over the years, both technical and non-technical related.




yoda13 said:


> Unfortunately, I tend to agree with this in a sense. Manufacturers, while trying to keep up with today's increasingly demanding customers, have to spread their research and manufacturing $$$ in much more areas then before. Build quality and amplification seems to give way to networking, home automation, countless app support and PS3 like GUIs. All this while their operating budget is staying the same or diminishing.
> 
> The way around that is licensing. But again, when most moneys goes this route, cuts has to be made somewhere and it tends to be at the manufacturing level, especially QC as it is not a "feature" that sells merchandise. I don't recall my sister buying her first AVR because it had a "superior quality control" sticker on it but rather because it had boatloads of online content and was an iDevice slave


Joe Consumer goes to big box store. He first looks at the brand label, seeks a name his great grandad trusted but doesnt know its only a name owned by a holding company in Dubai. Sees price. Sees brand A has more watts than brand B with over inflated unrealisic number, then sees tons of logos and support for web enabled features and goes ooh, that's gotta be better than the more expensive unit with fewer watts and its cheaper to boot. He then says :spend:"I'll take it!":spend:.


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

8086 said:


> Joe Consumer goes to big box store. He first looks at the brand label, seeks a name his great grandad trusted but doesnt know its only a name owned by a holding company in Dubai. Sees price. Sees brand A has more watts than brand B with over inflated unrealisic number, then sees tons of logos and support for web enabled features and goes ooh, that's gotta be better than the more expensive unit with fewer watts and its cheaper to boot. He then says :spend:"I'll take it!":spend:.


Yes, and this is the intention of Denon with this lineup. They are doing what they should be doing to stay in the game, wether we like it of not. It just means that for buyers like us (most folks on this forum) we'll have to fork more $$$ then we care just to have a decent amp section and premium room correction along with a bunch of stuff we probably won't use much or won't use for very long until the next gadgetery comes along.


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