# Pre-Amp suggestions?



## Jetjones

For the last several years my 2 channel system has been serving double duty as also my home theater system. I have my speakers hooked up to my receiver and used a cheap bluray player as my source for both home theater and 2 channel cd playback. Now I would like to try and split my system into two different rooms. I have already purchased some new home theater speakers and now I need to find a Pre-Amp, Amp, and cd player for my 2 channel system. 

I will probably go with proamps for my power but I have no idea what brand/model of pre-amp to find? I most certainly want to go used so that I can get more for my money. My budget for the pre-amp is $400.00 but I can probably up that budget if it will bring me a good bit of additional sq. Any suggestions? I definitely do not want to spend more than 1k for the pre-amp and would prefer to keep it around 400.00.


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## ALMFamily

Just a suggestion - you may want to post this question in this forum for a quicker response.

Good luck with your search!


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## Jetjones

ALMFamily said:


> Just a suggestion - you may want to post this question in this forum for a quicker response.
> 
> Good luck with your search!




Ok sorry, I thought that forum you suggested was for home theater equipment only.


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## ALMFamily

Oh no worries mate - just wanted to make sure you got a quicker response to your question. :T


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## JoeESP9

IMO your best option for a preamp in the $400 range is a used one from Audiogon. My recommendation if you are spending up to $1000 is either Audio Research Corporation or Conrad Johnson. Audiogon would also be where I'd look for an ARC or CJ.


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## tonyvdb

Have you considered just getting a standard receiver with pre outs and using it as a Pre-pro? These cost far less than a pre-pro and are just as good quality wise.


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## JoeESP9

The OP said he wanted a preamp and power amp for two channel stereo.

IMO there are no receivers that have a preamp section as good as a Conrad Johnson or Audio Research Corporation preamp.


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## tonyvdb

JoeESP9 said:


> The OP said he wanted a preamp and power amp for two channel stereo.
> 
> IMO there are no receivers that have a preamp section as good as a Conrad Johnson or Audio Research Corporation preamp.


5 to 10 years ago I would agree but that gap have been closed because of mass production and high sales volume. Receivers can very easily compete particularly in the OP price range


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## Jetjones

I currently have a Denon avr that I also use to power my 2 channel system. I realize that some people think there would be no increase in sound quality by going to a preamp & amp combination but I want to try and see for myself. I am also in the market for a used CD player and dac. I have been considering a Creek CD50 for cd playback and also a Music Hall 15.2 for the dac. Not sure on the preamp yet. Basically what I am trying to do is build a good 2 channel system with a cd player, preamp, amp, and dac. If I get all of this setup and it doesn't end up sounding any better than my current bluray player hooked up to my denon avr via hdmi, then I will sell the 2 channel components and stick with my bluray and denon.


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## tonyvdb

Certainly does not hurt to try out your option. Would be interested in your findings so keep us posted. Receivers these days with a Pure/Direct mode will be very comparable to what you will get from a prepro/preamp setup. I do agree that getting away from using the internal amps on most receivers in the sub $600 range will make a noticeable difference sadly receivers below the $400 price point rarely have preouts and they need it the most.


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## wgmontgomery

There are a few companies that make 2 channel preamps with a HT input; it allows you to have a pure 2-channel set-up and engage surround only when you want it. Parasound makes one that's highly rated by Stereophile, and you may be able to find an older version (used) on Audiogon. I hope this helps!

Good luck!


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## Jetjones

Right now I am considering the Parasound 2100 preamp as it seems to have some really good reviews. I am also considering the Audio Research LS8, McIntosh C28, or possibly a Music Hall or Musical Fidelity unit. I wish I knew where some decent dealers were in my area (Memphis area) so that I could demo a few of the latest preamps. I can bump my price range up to 1,500.00 if it will provide a good bit of sound quality over one of the cheaper pre's. I might also buy a DAC and a really good CDP and run those off of my Denon AVR untill I get some more cash to invest in a preamp. 


BTW- Do any of you guys live around the Memphis or north east Mississppi (Oxford area)? Or do any of you know any good dealers down in this area? If so then please let me know!


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## wgmontgomery

I don't know if this is close to Memphis, but you can try:

Premier Acoustic Lifestyles
Fairview Blvd. Suite 100
Fairview, TN 37062

615-799-8002
www.premieracousticlifestyles.com

They are listed as a Parasound dealer.


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## Jetjones

Thanks for that info wgmontgomery. I will try and contact them today. Lets keep the opinions and advise on which preamps are good for that money ($1,000 to 1,500+). I have been recommended both Conrad Johnson & Audio Research, as well as Parasound and a few others. I definitely want to buy used so that my money stretches a bit further. ??


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## jackfish

Since you are in Memphis an Emotiva USP-1 from Franklin, TN would have minimal return shipping costs. If you don't like it you can return it within 30 days for a full purchase price refund.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/preamplifiers/689-emotiva-usp-1-stereo-preamplifier.html

http://www.tonepublications.com/review/the-emotiva-usp-1-preamplifier-and-upa-1-amplifiers/

Performs way above its price point and has HT bypass.

It is worth a listen.


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## Jetjones

jackfish said:


> Since you are in Memphis an Emotiva USP-1 from Franklin, TN would have minimal return shipping costs. If you don't like it you can return it within 30 days for a full purchase price refund.
> 
> http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/preamplifiers/689-emotiva-usp-1-stereo-preamplifier.html
> 
> http://www.tonepublications.com/review/the-emotiva-usp-1-preamplifier-and-upa-1-amplifiers/
> 
> Performs way above its price point and has HT bypass.
> 
> It is worth a listen.




I thought the USP-1 was an ht processor? I have heard that unit is not very good in terms of sound quality so I will probably not even both with it.


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## jackfish

Obviously you thought and heard wrong. The USP-1 is a two channel analog preamp. Read the reviews. Definitely not described as being not very good in terms of sound quality. You might be thinking of the Emotiva UMC-1 which is an AV preprocessor and would compromise a two channel system. You could be kicking yourself if you don't even give the USP-1 a listen. It also has an elegant HT bypass function.


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## wgmontgomery

+1 on the Emotiva. BTW-the UMC-1 has a direct mode and sounds excellent as a 2 channel preamp.


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## Jetjones

jackfish said:


> Obviously you thought and heard wrong. The USP-1 is a two channel analog preamp. Read the reviews. Definitely not described as being not very good in terms of sound quality. You might be thinking of the Emotiva UMC-1 which is an AV preprocessor and would compromise a two channel system. You could be kicking yourself if you don't even give the USP-1 a listen. It also has an elegant HT bypass function.




Ok you are correct, I was thinking of the UMC-1 not the 2 channel pre that Emo offers. I will most definitely look into that unit. I am curious as to how it compares to the Parasound 2100, which roughly in he same price range and also has an ht bypass feature. 

Just out of curiousity, how do you guys think a McIntosh C26 or C28 would sound? If I go that rought then I will most definitely have the unit serviced and upgraded with newer higher quality parts to replace all of the worn parts that would eventually need replacing. I am also thinking about an older Audio Reseach or Conrad Johnson unit. Or possibly something from Bryston or Krell. My max budget is $1600.00 so I am not sure if I could get a Bryston or Krell for that. 

Keep the advise flowing freely!


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## wgmontgomery

You couldn't go wrong with Bryston or Krell, but I think that some older CJ preamps invert polarity. I'm not 100% sure of that, but a good and trusted friend told me that his did.


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## Jetjones

wgmontgomery said:


> You couldn't go wrong with Bryston or Krell, but I think that some older CJ preamps invert polarity. I'm not 100% sure of that, but a good and trusted friend told me that his did.



What do you think about the older McIntosh preamps? I am looking into possibly an updated and upgraded C26 or C28. I am also somewhat considering going with a Benchmark Dac-1 pre. That unit is a dac and preamp all in one. Price is a little high but I could kill two birds with one stone the Dac-1 due to it being both a dac and a pre.


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## wgmontgomery

I have read nothing but *great* things about the Benchmark. As I've never owned/had close friends who own older Mac gear, I don't know a lot about it. People who own it love it, though.


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## Jetjones

wgmontgomery said:


> I have read nothing but *great* things about the Benchmark. As I've never owned/had close friends who own older Mac gear, I don't know a lot about it. People who own it love it, though.



I have also heard lots of great reviews on the Benchmark. If I do end up going with the Benchmark or a newer Bryston or ARC preamp, I probably wont be able to purchase it until August, which is when I get my next bonus check from my work. I could possibly purchase the McIntosh, Emo, or Parasound right now. Not sure what I want to do!


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## tesseract

wgmontgomery said:


> You couldn't go wrong with Bryston or Krell, but I think that some older CJ preamps invert polarity. I'm not 100% sure of that, but a good and trusted friend told me that his did.


Some models do indeed invert. This is not a problem, though. Simply reverse the loudspeaker cable polarity.

I wouldn't discount conrad-johnson for this, they make nice sounding gear.


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## wgmontgomery

"I wouldn't discount conrad-johnson for this, they make nice sounding gear"

I agree, but I thought it was worth noting. On the same note, if you get the "matching" CJ amp, I believe that the amp inverts the polarity again. You end-up with the correct polarity.


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## Jetjones

Which C-J models are worth looking into? Are there any that you do not recommend?


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## wgmontgomery

Wow...which old CJ models to recommend? There are a lot of factors involved before I can answer that (associated equipment, tube or solid state, your personal taste, too many to list). Please allow me to do some research first. Perhaps there's a CJ owners thread that would be helpful? I didn't see one here. In the mean time, maybe this will help:

http://www.audioclassics.com/brand.php3?brand=conrad+johnson


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## Jetjones

wgmontgomery said:


> Wow...which old CJ models to recommend? There are a lot of factors involved before I can answer that (associated equipment, tube or solid state, your personal taste, too many to list). Please allow me to do some research first. Perhaps there's a CJ owners thread that would be helpful? I didn't see one here. In the mean time, maybe this will help:
> 
> http://www.audioclassics.com/brand.php3?brand=conrad+johnson



Associated equipment is: Emotiva amp 200watts per channel, Sony bluray player that I use for cd playback ( I am looking to upgrade to a dedicated cd player) and a pair of Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 bookshelves. As far as personal taste, I like to listen to most classic rock and roll, outlaw country, and some mo-town oldies. I haven't been able to demo any other equipment, as I live in rural Mississippi, so I can not say whether or not I prefer tubes or solid state. I have only listened to tube equipment once (McIntosh tube preamp and McIntosh tube amp) and I absolutely loved the way it sounded. I am looking to purchase a preamp, cd player, and a dac. I will purchase the preamp more than likely first, then add a cd player and a dac. I have heard great things about the C-J pre's so I am pretty sure that I would be happy with one.


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## wgmontgomery

"I have heard great things about the C-J pre's so I am pretty sure that I would be happy with one."

I have no doubt that you will be happy with any tube CJ preamp. A lot of people pair a tube preamp with a good solid state amp; the idea (as I understand it) is to get the "warmth" or "liquid" tube sound from the preamp and the tight bass control/power of solid state. In fact, there are many guitar amps that do that very thing (tube preamp section/solid state amp). A CJ tube preamp and your Emotiva amp could make a very good pair. I am actually considering doing the same thing:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/two-channel-audio/55095-tube-not-tube.html


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## seldenr

Guys: I am new to this site, but a long time audiophile, and heavy into music and equipment. I have owned so many pieces at this point I can hardly remember. I started selling audio equipment in college, then was a practicing musician for years, and a audio engineer. Great fun, but only meant to say I have listened a lot and tried a lot of equipment. After having owned some dozen pre-amps (and a few AV receivers) I have some rather strong opinions on preamps. I tend to believe that outside of speakers they are the heart of a system, and can make or break.

If you have not tried a CJ preamp, you simply must do so. I started with the PV5, which although old, is well within your budget and will give you an idea of true tubes. The Cary preamps are also interesting, and a matter of taste, but after also having owned a few of them I tend to favor CJ.

If you can find one, somewhere in the $800 range should get you a used CJ PV14-L. I sold one to purchase an ARC Ref 3, and at some 8 times the price I almost wished I would have kept the 14-L. I recently sold the ARC for another CJ CT-5, and although it is an improvement on both those mentioned, for the money the 14-L still amazes me. FWIW, Joe Fratus (of Art Audio fame) thinks it is one of the greats.

I have spent some time with Mac, and the Benchmark DAC 1 (I have a nice ADC1), but they are simply different. I am not good at describing the difference, only that the CJ sounds a bit more like what I hear when I am playing. The dynamics and timbres are real. The "presence" is realistic. No sense of over-analytical or strident. 

Ok, sorry for the novel, but hard to tell you how much I would recommend at some point in your audio life you owe it to yourself to pick up a CJ preamp and see for yourself. The only other preamp that has tempted to move me away from my CJ is a Shindo, but rather pricey, and not enough difference to warrant it. 

Anyway, just my $0.02 worth. Let me know if I can help, and good luck!!!


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## wgmontgomery

Since you own a CJ preamp your insight/experience is quite valuable to this discussion. Jetjones seems to be leaning toward CJ, so it's great to get some first hand info from someone who has heard most/all of the preamps mentioned. Thanks for your input! 

BTW-I'd love to add a tube preamp to my system for stereo.


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## seldenr

Thanks for that Gary. Sorry I am so new to this site, but I have a long history over at Audiogon, and have certainly owned my share of gear! And glad to help any time. I have sort of made a habit of recommending systems for others (just bought a 2nd system for my brother). If you let me know a budget, your music tastes and size of room I would be glad to make some recommendations.

Jetjones, I saw you mentioned the Benchmark DAC. That is a good unit, and I had the pleasure of playing it for a few days at a friend's house. 

However, I recently purchased a Wyred 4 Sound DAC2 for another brother (it retails for $1,499). Take a look at the reviews since they are raves. It has an ESS 32 bit DAC, and is asynchronous (for USB the DAC controls the data stream not the computer, so lower jitter). I think you can use the HT Bypass input as an analogue input, so you essentially can use it as a preamp also.

In my opinion it was better than the Benchmark. Personal opinion, but I was rather surprised. Very little difference between that DAC (running files from my PC via J River Media Center) and my Ayre C5xe, which cost a little more than that!!!

So here is a suggestion: Wyred 4 Sound has a new straight DAC based on their DAC1. It retails for $399!! With the cost difference you could easily afford any number of high quality tube preamps, which in my experience will make a more profound difference in sound than using the Benchmark as your DAC.

I hope I don't sound too opinionated, but after using the Benchmark and a few solid state units, I doubt I will be able to ever not have a tube pre in my system. Yes, I have very much enjoyed the ARC, Cary, McIntosh and others, but for my ears I keep coming back to CJ. They do not give up anything in slam or dynamics (nor in bass or treble extension), yet they have a most wonderful liquid sound that puts the bite in brass yet makes it fat like the real thing. Upright bass seems to resound in the room. There is simply a fullness that I have not been able to coax out of solid state.

Ok, time for me to shut up. But I hope my little novel helps!!


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## tesseract

Thank you for your insight, seldenr, and welcome to Home Theater Shack!


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## wgmontgomery

+1 on the thanks and welcome.

Most of my experience with tube equipment comes from the pro side (playing/recording) but there isn't any doubt in _my_ mind that (in many ways) it's better. There can be a trade-off between the two, which is why I really like the idea of a tube preamp and solid state amp. I know that there are tube amps with all the...guts (bass, dynamics) of a solid state amp; they are just beyond my budget. I also know that people will point at the numbers (higher distortion, etc.), but what it comes down to is how it sounds to me. As far as specs go, I think that a major difference in the sound is due to tube equipment having even order distortion vs. solid state having odd order distortion. Distortion isn't a good thing (unless you're playing guitar in a rock band *-) ), but even order distortion is more pleasing to the ears. My understanding-and feel free to correct me- is that even order distortion is basically a harmonic of the original, so it doesn't "clash" like odd order distortion.

Again, specs are just numbers. There really needs to be a better industry standard. For example, does anyone _really_ think that a 1000 watt HTIaB is more powerful than a 25watt Levinson amp? I understand that specs are useful, but what matters is how it sounds. Just my 2¢...but I digress.

Thanks again!


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## seldenr

wmontgomery:

I agree 100%. Studies show that our ears do not mind odd order harmonics as much, and in fact may prefer some over none (which is a great debate for SET amp fans). And yes, long known that tube watts and solid state watts are not the same. When I was much younger I fell into that game of reading specs (mostly on amps) and wanting the most clean power, until I heard the original Mark Levinson 30 watt monoblocks (at some $3000 per pair back in the 80s). Can't recall who said something like "if an amp can't produce 5 good watts, why would you want 1000 more of them?"

Besides, tubes do several other things well. One is regarding clipping. And all amps will clip on significant transients. Solid state tends to shear off the top and bottom of the waveform whereas tubes tend to reduce the extension of that form. Neither is good, but the latter seems to be less obtrusive.

Whoops, almost forgot the point. I just noticed that someone (no, not me) posted a used Conrad Johnson PV10L on Audiogon, asking $600. The "L" just means it does not include a phono preamp. Although 15 years old that is a nice preamp, and would be a wonderful way to try one out. If you decided not to keep it you would not lose much (or anything other than shipping and some fees) to sell it on. Just FYI.


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## wgmontgomery

"Studies show that our ears do not mind *odd* order harmonics as much"

Unless I'm misreading your post, I thought that it was the other way around. I thought that _even_ order distortion was "kinder" to the ears and not as noticeable as it is a harmonic of the fundamental (original) signal. If I'm wrong, please let me know. Thanks!!

BTW-I used to get caught-up in specs, too. I soon realized that it doesn't matter how something _measures_, it's how it _sounds_ that's important. Plus, there just isn't really any standardization for things like "watts" in the industry. A $150 HTiaB with 1000 watts?? Really?? :rofl: Not to mention the often asked, "How many watts are those speakers?"  Mine are 50 watts RMS times 2, but they are powered monitors.


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## seldenr

Arrgghh!! You are correct, I really need to proof these posts. It should have said "our ears do not mind EVEN order harmonics as much." Sorry for the typo, and thanks for the good eye to catch my mistake.

And are you correct. Once upon a time I sold audio equipment during college. The car audio stuff was hilarious. 500 watts for $90. Can you imagine the opamp that was in those things? 500 watts, maybe, but probably at 95% distortion.

A story: The finest amp I have ever heard or owned was an Art Audio PX25 (google for pictures, it is absolutely beautiful). A single ended triode design based on the old (but currently newly manufactured since there are no NOS tubes) PX25 tube. I had it in my home, and compared it to about 11 other amps of solid state and tube variety. Some push-pull (KT88 based mostly), some SET (300B, 211, 845 based), and several solid state designs of very high quality (Pass, Conrad Johnson, Einstein). As much as I wanted to like the Audiopax monoblocks (at 30 watts) the PX25 simply smoked them, mostly because of its startling dynamics, and extension at both ends. What, a SET amp with bass? Oh my goodness yes.

The power output? 6 watts per channel. 

And it could throw you out of the room. I had a musician friend over and put on the Gordon Goodwin Big Phat Band XXL album (the DVD-A version) and I think I parted his hair from about 15 feet. He weighs about 300 pounds and he jumped about 3 feet in the air when the kick drum came in. The kick drum would shake the whole room, floorboards and your pants legs. You could literally feel it in your stomach. 

The sax player sounded like he was standing about 10 feet from you, and when the trombone solo came in I would swear you felt like you had spit on you he was blowing so hard. WHY DID I SELL THAT AMP?!?!?!? 

Last story: One of my best friends is the head band director of a large high school here. He also has a Masters in Performance (trombone) from University of Michigan. He heard that amp in my system and drooled the whole time. The next day he called me and said "I hate you". I said "why"? He said "because yesterday, before I heard your system, my stereo sounded just fine. Now it sounds awful." 

That to me is the difference in a nutshell. That $150, 1000 watt amp will sound fine until you hear what quality can do. Then you are spoiled. So sorry for this novel again, but wanted to stress that those that have not tried one, go give a good tube preamp a try and see. Course, make sure you use a good amp (the difference even among good ones is tremendous) and speakers, and you will understand. Maybe you will prefer solid state, but you will hear why.


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## wgmontgomery

I've always used tube amps (Fender black face, Mesa Boogie, etc.) when playing/recording, and I REALLY want to add a simple tube preamp to my system. I'm using Dynaudio powered monitors in a combo stereo/HT set-up; the plan is to add a tube preamp with 2 source (digital and phono) inputs to use for music (aka 2 channel). I'd leave the processor and other stuff for HT but would have a tube preamp, too. Sadly, money is a huge issue right now as I'm about to be laid-off. Oh well, I can still dream!!

I have some recommendations from another thread, and even some of the preamps coming out of China right now look decent...for the price.

Thanks so much for your input. You've proven to be a valuable contributor to this site...IMHO.


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## Jetjones

Thanks for the replies! I have thought about this long and hard, my goals and needs have changed somewhat over the past couple of months. The receiver that I was using in my theater ended up dying a couple of weeks ago. So due to the fact that I also have to replace my receiver in my ht, I have decided to go a different direction, and, I want to get some oppinions from you guys. 

I will probably end up purchasing a Denon AVR-3312 for my ht room. I will use this to power both my ht speakers and my 2 channel speakers. I will purchase a new W4S MDAC to use with my Rotel Cdp connected via analog inputs on the 3312. Does this sound like a good idea? The W4S MDAC is supposed to be very close to the Dac1 in terms of SQ, at less than $400! I do have another option that I would like to hear some opinions on which of these two would be best.

I came accross a sweet deal on an Anthem avm-20 preamp, and, I just couldnt pass it up, so I bought it. I have considered using this for the processing in my ht room as well as with my 2 channel system. The problem is that I would have to purchase an amp, and a new bluray player, because my current bdp does not have analog outs (Sony bdp-360). I figured the bluray player would cost $400 to $500 and the amp would cost around $400 to $1,000. 

I am not sure which would be the better option? My primary concern is good SQ for my ht, but, also good SQ for my 2 channel system. The downside to the Anthem is that it would cost a lot more to get up and running. Do you guys think I could achieve SQ equall to the 3312 with the Anthem and a decent bdp?


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## drchicago54

JoeESP9 said:


> IMO your best option for a preamp in the $400 range is a used one from Audiogon. My recommendation if you are spending up to $1000 is either Audio Research Corporation or Conrad Johnson. Audiogon would also be where I'd look for an ARC or CJ.


I have to agree with the audiogon route. Down through the years I have bought and sold tons of stuff on audiogon and I have never got burned. I agree with Conrad Johnson. It's price does not devalue much and it is tough to get anything for less than $1000.00 so you may want to change your price range. If you want something in your range I suggest used NAD. It is well made.


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## 8086

I would just look for a good deal on an Onkyo receiver with pre-outs. Or buy an Emotiva home theater pre-amp for $499 on sale right now.
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/umc1


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## Jetjones

Update:

I have had the Denon avr-3312 in my system for a bit now, and to be up front and honest, I am not happy with the 2 channel performance. I am now considering purchasing a two or three pro-amps from the likes of Crown and/or Behringer, as well as Peavy and QSC. Just going to do some searching as to where I can get the best deal. Hopefully adding a high current/high wattage amp will help somewhat. Next thing after that is going to be a Wyred4Sound MDAC to connect to my cdp which will then be connected to my Denon avr-3312 via the analog connects. After that is done, I will start seriously looking into a dedicated 2 channel pre-amp, or possibly a dedicated 2 channel integrated amp. 

With that being said, can you guys;

1. Suggest a brand and a model of any pro-amps I should keep an eye out for? (best bang for my buck?)
2. How do you feel about the Wyred4Sound MDAC? (It appears to be just like their DAC1, only less features)
3. Can you possibly suggest a 2 channel pre-amp that would sound better than my avr-3312, for under $800?

I am not opposed to buying used either.


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## wgmontgomery

I'd check Stereolist for used gear; we also have a classified section here. For $800 you should be able to get an excellent used preamp. I'll try to take a look and see if there are any specific models to suggest.

As mentioned in an earlier post, Emotiva has a stereo preamp that has received great reviews. It is on-sale for <$400!


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## jackfish

Jetjones said:


> 3. Can you possibly suggest a 2 channel pre-amp that would sound better than my avr-3312, for under $800?


Emotiva USP-1


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## andy_c

Jetjones said:


> 3. Can you possibly suggest a 2 channel pre-amp that would sound better than my avr-3312, for under $800?


One possibility might be the Parasound 2100, which goes for $649. It is has home theater bypass, so it can be integrated into an AV system.

I haven't heard it though, so I can't comment on the sound.

Edit: Ack! I just realized you were considering that earlier in the thread.


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## wgmontgomery

The Emotiva currently sells for $381.65!! Here's a link.

+1 on the Parasound, too!


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## Jetjones

To be upfront and honest, I am not interested in the Emotiva equipment, I have my reasons that I won't get into. Putting the original topic off to the side for a few moments, how do you guys think the W4S MDAC would compare to a Cambridage Audio DAC-Magic? Have any of you guys ever modded a Dac? I have read good reviews of the Dac-Magic and there seems to be a good platform to mod and tweak it further. 

Also, what are the best bang for your buck pro-amps that would be good? I like the Behringer iNuke 1000 and the Crown XLS-202 or Crown XLS-402. The first purchase I am planning on making is adding a good amp. I figure that I can get a whole lot more for my money by going with a used pro-amp. Suggestions?


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## tonyvdb

Stay away from Behringer products. They tend to produce a noisy signal and are ok for sub duty but not full range. There is a reason you will never see professionals using them in a studio or even for concert duty. They are inexpensive for a reason.
Crown, QSC, Samson, Emotivia, Rotel (and the list goes on) all make much better amps.


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## JoeESP9

I've got two bridged Crown XLS-402's that I use for sub woofer duty. The original fans were somewhat noisy. I replaced them with quieter fans that were exact drop in replacements. Noise problem solved. I'm quite happy with their performance.


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## demorganjr

This is an old thread but I thought I'd add a pre-amp that's just a tad out of budget at 1900... the Rogue Audio Perseus . A tube pre with a nice phono stage and a HT Bypass that makes it very easy to incorporate into a HT system and still get the best of 2-channel. I have been using my 2006 version of this pre with a Benchmark DAC and am quite happy.

peace, don


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## rongon

Zombie Thread resurrection time? Oh well, here goes... 

For a stereo system, especially one that uses only digital sources (no LP's), the best preamp is no preamp at all.

Almost all stereo power amps made these days can be driven to full power with less than 1Vrms input signal. 

Digital sources like CD players, DVD players, BD players are designed to output 2Vrms of audio signal (that's 2.83V peak) from 0dBFS (that's a full blast signal) on a disc. 

That means the full output from a CD can easily drive just about any power amp well into clipping (overload). 

What you want is a selector switch and a volume control ("passive" attenuator) that doesn't muck anything up. There are three common choices. One, you can buy what's known as a "passive preamp" (a contradiction in terms), which is a selector switch and volume control in a nice box, like those from Goldpoint. Or, you can get a selector switch like the Niles Audio AXP-1 and a stepped attenuator kit like those from DACT-- a multi-position switch with a resistor network that turns down (attentuates) the signal with dead-on accurate channel-to-channel balance. Finally, you can get an inductive attenuator such as those from Intact Audio, which is sort of like a transformer with lots of taps, wired up to a multi-position switch. (These sound stunning, by the way.) 

The idea is, why have a circuit with gain, then use negative feedback to take away all the gain, when you could just use an attenuator and be done with it? 

The only places where a line level preamplifier is really needed is if you play vinyl records, in which case the preamp supplies the necessary gain (usually 40dB to 70dB) and RIAA equalization, or if you have such long interconnect cables that you need a buffer stage/cable driver between your sources and the power amp inputs. 

Anyway, that's another more "purist" alternative. 
--


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## AudiocRaver

Since you bring it up...

I've been thinking along those lines, with a twist, and got stuck on needing a 3- or 4-gang audio-taper potentiometer to handle 2.1 or 2.2 signals.

Starting with a media player with built-in (or follow-up processing stage for) VST processing for EQ plus active bass management - already know how to accomplish all that - then the previously-mentioned audio pot for passive volume control - then off to the power amp & sub(s). Thinking "sub(s)" allows for the flexibility to get a little bit crazy and have dual subs with separate processing (true stereo all the way down to below 20 Hz - not going to try to justify it here, I just _want it)._ That means 4-gangs for 2.2 signal handling.

Two-gang pots are trivial to find, 3- or 4-gang pots, not so much. I saw some multi-gang stepped pots, looked really nice, then saw the prices - $200 and up if I remember correctly. That is not unreasonable for the product, clearly good quality, hand-made, precision components. But I would be happy with "just pots," assuming good tracking.

So I got a quote from a supplier who will custom configure special pots from modular lines. For a dozen (this is from memory, don't hold me to the penny), it came to around $50 each plus a $50 setup charge. I figured maybe someday I might run into a group of folks thinking along the same lines and we'd pitch in and get some 4-gang audio pots for our "purist" 2.2 rigs for around $55 each. While at it, I would get 2 myself, maybe a 3rd one for backup.

Hadn't thought about it for a few months, until your post. Now I know there are 2 people thinking this way. Any others?


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## rongon

Just curious -- Why 4-gang pots? Why not let the media player act as your volume control? Maybe it can be set up with a remote? Since it sounds like your only sources will be digital, and in a computer to boot... 

Any ganged, carbon track pot is going to have measurable channel-to-channel mistracking. It's inevitable. Stepped attenuators will have practically none. 

BTW, you don't have to justify a "2.2" system to me, especially if the crossover points are much above 100Hz. I'm with you on that one. 
--


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## tesseract

I'm all for eliminating the pre amp, using a passive pre integrated which allows the source to drive the amp directly. An active pre out does power my subwoofer amplifier.

Folks that think all amps sound the same have probably not heard what elimination of the pre amp can do. :nerd:


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## AudiocRaver

rongon said:


> Just curious -- Why 4-gang pots? Why not let the media player act as your volume control? Maybe it can be set up with a remote? Since it sounds like your only sources will be digital, and in a computer to boot...


Good point. There are two systems in question. One is a foobar2000 based media server, possibly going to J River or XBMC or something like that. An Android tablet is used as a remote for that server, as you suggest, and it works very nicely. Part of it is habit, there is a Behringer MON800r sitting beside the comfy chair listening position, and I am used to having a knob to twist. In that case, it is not a necessity. The other system is a music production computer running a digital audio workstation, running through another MON800 to power amplifier and near-field monitors, and controlling the volume digitally, while not inconceivable, is definitely messier. In both cases, there is a bit of a comfort factor in having an analog knob as the last control point before the power amp just in case the digital realm goes wacky. Rare and getting rarer, but still a tiny comfort in having that knob as speaker protection.



> Any ganged, carbon track pot is going to have measurable channel-to-channel mistracking. It's inevitable. Stepped attenuators will have practically none.
> --


Indeed, a stepped attenuators clearly has the tracking accuracy advantage. And while I am not adverse to laying down an appropriate pile cash for good gear, I admit to having a minor mental block about spending 200+ for a passive volume control. One thing I have not yet done is calculated worst-case tracking error for a multi-ganged pot based on mfr specs. Or how correctable it might be with a trimming resistor or two. Or how quickly all the calculating and tweaking time makes a well made stepped attenuator look more practical after all. Thanks for the feedback, and keeping me honest.


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## AudiocRaver

tesseract said:


> I'm all for eliminating the pre amp, using a passive pre integrated which allows the source to drive the amp directly. An active pre out does power my subwoofer amplifier.
> 
> Folks that think all amps sound the same have probably not heard what elimination of the pre amp can do. :nerd:


Total agreement here. The best sounding preamp is wires, switches, and resisters.


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## demorganjr

Took the time to have a listen to my system in this configuration:

Mac Mini --> Benchmark USB DAC --> Crossover ---> Anthem Amp --> Mains
|--> Subs​
It is the best sounding of all the combinations I have tried so far... but, it would be very inconvenient to leave things in this configuration as the system must provide HT duty also.

peace, don


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## AudiocRaver

demorganjr said:


> Took the time to have a listen to my system in this configuration:
> 
> Mac Mini --> Benchmark USB DAC --> Crossover ---> Anthem Amp --> Mains
> |--> Subs​
> It is the best sounding of all the combinations I have tried so far... but, it would be very inconvenient to leave things in this configuration as the system must provide HT duty also.
> 
> peace, don


Indeed, such a minimalist setup definitely lends itself best to simple 2-channel audio "purist-mode" listening. Priorities take quite a shift when HT duty is involved.


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## msmith

I am pretty happy with my B&K PT5 preamplifier. It is very quiet and nicely built (in the USA). It has a remote control (which I find non-negotiable), plus balanced outputs and even high-pass and subwoofer outputs. The only major thing it does not include is a phono preamp, but I solved that with a nice outboard from Pro-Ject.

It might not have the caché of the more audiophile brands, but I can vouch for it as a very nice piece of gear for the budget conscious. They can be found for around $200-$300 on eBay pretty regularly.


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