# 8" to 12" not much improvement?



## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

I just replaced my HSU STF-1 with an Emotiva Ultra 12 for my small 12x11 bedroom. I was reading how its always better to have a larger sub because u can always turn the bass down. I listen to mostly music so I thought I would give the sealed sub a try. I expected a big improvement over my small HSU but the improvement in music is not that great. It sounds about the same, I need to turn it down because it sounds boomier. I know placement is key, but its in the same spot as my HSU and its sealed instead of ported. Isn't the Emo supposed to be a lot better or is it because my room is so small and placement is limited so it doesn't even matter what sub I use.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

The STF-1 is a terrific subwoofer, and delivers punchy bass to 30 Hz. I have not auditioned the Emo sub, but based on its design and your room, you are seeing room gain starting at about 45 Hz - the sealed Emo likely is giving you a lot of bass below 30 Hz in that room. 

Is your subwoofer spot by any chance in the corner?


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## fitzwaddle (Aug 25, 2010)

Plus most music doesn't feature a lot of low sub bass - you'd be more likely to notice a difference with home theater.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2011)

I have the Emo 12 and when I first got it, I put it in the corner and it didn't seem to blend well. Now it is in the middle of my mains, and now I LOVE it.

How are you controlling the bass? How is it hooked up? I have the Emo pre-amp with active low-high crossovers and I thought crossing over at 60hz would be better, but in my room, crossing over at 80hz ended up having less room gain.

I think its safe to say the sub is great, but your placement or setup might need improvement. I've heard a few DIY sealed subs, and they are all nice, but the Emo is just as good if not better. It really is a nice sub.

Boomy is the last thing that comes to mind with mine. It is extremely tight and musical.

Not sure what your setup is, but try putting the sub between your mains.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Yes, that little HSU is very punchy and great.

My Emo is in the corner where the HSU was. I don't have anywhere else to put it really so I don't know if I should eat shipping and return it or just keep it knowing that it is better if I have better placement.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

A couple of things to try ...

1. Pull it out about 6 inches from the corner.

2. Face the Emo into the corner. 

Try both, and listen to find if either gets better sound. You may be experiencing deeper bass than you are used to, but you may also be getting some boominess from excess boundary gain. My guess is 1 will help a lot.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Thanks, I will try that when I get home. I didn't know turning the sub around would make the bass sound different.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

wil11o6 said:


> Thanks, I will try that when I get home. I didn't know turning the sub around would make the bass sound different.


It's not a "would" make a difference .. but rather a "could" make a difference. A subwoofer which can hit really deep bass (in room) usually requires a lot of fuss in placement. Based on where room gain starts in your room - and it's probably higher than the 45 Hz I mentioned - don't be surprised if moving the EMO even 6 inches can have a big effect on sound quality. 

Keep experimenting, and you will find a spot that gives you a solid 20 Hz floor in that room, without boominess. :T


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

A low B on a 5 string bass is only 30hz, so you won't notice a huge difference unless you pick the right kind of music. I use the track "Milkman" by "Aphex Twin" to really push the bass response of speakers. Before you go looking for the track, understand that the lyrics may not be suitable for all sensibilities.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Thanks for the help craig and others. I moved my sub out away from the wall about 6" and it took away some of the boominess and gain so that is good, however, the performance is still not where I wish it would be. So if you say I wouldn't hear a difference because most music don't go low enough then that gets me wondering.

Stupid question incoming:
Let's say my situation is 100% music and no HT at all and my room size is 12x11. The reason I got the 12" sealed is because I "heard" it's "tighter and cleaner" than ported. Now, I know the Emo would stomp all over the HSU if it was in a medium/large room, but my room is small. So if they sound the same, I would have been better off getting a larger ported HSU that digs deeper incase I want to future proof my sub for HT use. If I only listen at low to medium levels the 8" HSU and 12" Emo would sound the same since most music doesn't really go down to 30hz?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

If you think you'll be moving to HT soon, I'd personally take the lower extension of a larger ported sub, but you still won't hear an improvement in your current situation. If you're contemplating returning the Emotiva, I'd wait to buy your new sub until you're actually ready to go HT.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Yeah, I actually moved my Emo and HSU out into my living room which is about 20x15x10 to compare the two in a bigger open space. I don't know, but for music listening, the little 8" HSU held its own. The Emo definitely was cleaner, and tighter, but for an 8" sub on the HSU, I was more impressed with the HSU than the Emo. I almost wonder if I should have gotten a VTF-1 or VTF-2 instead. Though maybe the Emo would be tighter and more accurate than the VTF-1/2 just less output and extension. But I hear ported and sealed are the same nowadays for music because they are so well designed. Oh well I should just be happy.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

wil - I have had the STF-1 in our system. It' a terrific little subwoofer. At one time, I was using it in a two channel system with a pair of Klipschorns. It actually added a nice punch in the 30-50 Hz range.

eugovector gave you terrific advice - if you are thinking you will have a larger theater room later, and prefer the STF-1 now, keep it and wait until you are ready for a full time larger home theater subwoofer.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Hmm....yeah I don't know what to do at this point. I am sure the Emo is a better sub, I just can't achieve its full potential in my small room. Return shipping is going to cost me roughly $80 according to their website. That's a big chunk of change. The HSU has pretty good resell value so I can probably sell that and take a $100 loss. So it comes down to: I keep HSU, but lose $80 or I keep Emo and lose $100.

Using the Emo on movies is a clear winner, the bass doesn't rattle my entire room and lose bass accuracy during action sequences like my HSU. It keeps it low and clean, however, it is not as punchy as the HSU.

I don't know!


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

wil11o6 said:


> Hmm....yeah I don't know what to do at this point. I am sure the Emo is a better sub, I just can't achieve its full potential in my small room. Return shipping is going to cost me roughly $80 according to their website. That's a big chunk of change. The HSU has pretty good resell value so I can probably sell that and take a $100 loss. So it comes down to: I keep HSU, but lose $80 or I keep Emo and lose $100.
> 
> Using the Emo on movies is a clear winner, the bass doesn't rattle my entire room and lose bass accuracy during action sequences like my HSU. It keeps it low and clean, however, it is not as punchy as the HSU.
> 
> I don't know!


This can drive a person crazy, deciding what to do. Part of what you may be experiencing is you are used to the Hsu's sonic signature. Ported subs, especially those with a tuning point in the 30 Hz range, tend to have a lively, punchy sound. By not having much output below 30 Hz, they seem "faster" than a subwoofer which extends to 20 Hz and below. 

You may well find over time that the EMO sub starts sounding better to you. Your description of the sound quality of both subs seems to point towards the EMO being a more accurate subwoofer, but one which your ears may need time for getting accustomed to this sound.

Just food for thought.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Thanks Craig, you are exactly right. I upgraded from a HTiB Yamaha sub to the HSU STF-1 and that was a revelation in what I thought a sub should sound like. I have never owned a real sub so the only experience I have comparing the Emo to is my HSU. My ears are not trained to tell which sub has better sound quality and design; I can only tell by which one is SLIGHTLY better.

During the first couple hours of listening to my Emo, I thought it was a bit flat and when I turned it up, it got boomy. I was missing that HSU frequency bump in the 30-40hz. After more time listening to the Emo, it started to sound better than before, however, I still miss that little 30hz punch. Is this because my ears are "untrained" to appreciate the goodness that is the Emo sub? Do high end subwoofers have some sort of tuning point or just the STF-1 because it is only an 8". Also, if I were to climb up the HSU chain, say a VTF-1 or VTF-2, would it still have that 30hz or so punch? I always thought that "punch" was more prominent on a sealed design than ported from what I read, or is that only exclusive to the STF-1 design (and others)?

Sorry for these dumb quesitons, I am just curious to what a real good sub would sound like


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

wil11o6 said:


> Thanks Craig, you are exactly right. I upgraded from a HTiB Yamaha sub to the HSU STF-1 and that was a revelation in what I thought a sub should sound like. I have never owned a real sub so the only experience I have comparing the Emo to is my HSU. My ears are not trained to tell which sub has better sound quality and design; I can only tell by which one is SLIGHTLY better.
> 
> During the first couple hours of listening to my Emo, I thought it was a bit flat and when I turned it up, it got boomy. I was missing that HSU frequency bump in the 30-40hz. After more time listening to the Emo, it started to sound better than before, however, I still miss that little 30hz punch. Is this because my ears are "untrained" to appreciate the goodness that is the Emo sub? Do high end subwoofers have some sort of tuning point or just the STF-1 because it is only an 8". Also, if I were to climb up the HSU chain, say a VTF-1 or VTF-2, would it still have that 30hz or so punch? I always thought that "punch" was more prominent on a sealed design than ported from what I read, or is that only exclusive to the STF-1 design (and others)?
> 
> Sorry for these dumb quesitons, I am just curious to what a real good sub would sound like


The larger Hsu subs (in addition to the STF-1, I have owned the VTF-3 Mark II, the VTF 2 Mark III, the VTF-3 Mark 3 and the VTF-3 HO) have a much lower tuning frequency. They are more neutral than the STF-1, and will all give bass to 20 Hz or below. 

You will never hear a had Hsu subwoofer - The STF-1 is a really cool little subwoofer, and is a great sub to break into high end sound for not much money. The larger Hsu subs will make an excellent home theater subwoofer in the future, should you decide to go that way. 

I wouldn't say your ears are not trained for the Emo, but rather you are just more accustomed to the Hsu.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

The sub is on carpet. Would the subdude or something like that help reduce some boominess? I still am unable to get perfect placement


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

wil11o6 said:


> The sub is on carpet. Would the subdude or something like that help reduce some boominess? I still am unable to get perfect placement


Try putting it on a couple of small stacks of books first ... try to have the books near the edge of the subs ... if you are looking down, you would see almost the entire book sticking out on each side of the sub.

Figure about 3 inches high on each side, leaving a 3 inch gap to the floor. If you notice better sound, the subdude will help even more.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Hah, never would have thought of that. Will try later. Thanks


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

I won't be able to touch it for a couple days, but I'm wondering if I could use the packing Styrofoam that it came with to rise it up.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

wil11o6 said:


> I won't be able to touch it for a couple days, but I'm wondering if I could use the packing Styrofoam that it came with to rise it up.


You really don't want to use styrofoam, think about how "squeaky" it can be. Any movement by the subwoofer could cause a problem. If you cannot get suitable books, then yes, but only as a last resort.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Yes, I tried the Styrofoam. It did not make a difference. I didst try books but I ordered the subdude cuz I read some people said it got is of some boominess, though I think I would need right placement first. We will see


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Good call - Having a subdude is always a nice idea. Maybe it will help you with the decision making process. At the end of the day, go with your "gut" on this. It's your money, your ears, and your system.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Yeah, even if it doesn't work out, I can use the subdude for future subs or my STF1. Though, do I put the spikes on the subdude because its downfiring and need spike to elevate it up


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Normally, the answer is no - but neither sub is very heavy, so the spikes are not a bad idea.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Update: I got my subdude today and I only had 45 minutes with it. The first thing I noticed is the floor vibrates about 75% less which is a good thing. The second is I had to turn the sub gain higher because it feels like a whole new sub placement. I don't know if it's the placebo or not, but it sounds a little less boomy. It is not perfect, but at least I am satisfied now. My room still rattles a bit, but I'm guessing that's from the air pressure in my tiny room. I'm a happy camper now, but it's not perfect! Maybe I'm OCD.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

wil11o6 said:


> Update: I got my subdude today and I only had 45 minutes with it. The first thing I noticed is the floor vibrates about 75% less which is a good thing. The second is I had to turn the sub gain higher because it feels like a whole new sub placement. I don't know if it's the placebo or not, but it sounds a little less boomy. It is not perfect, but at least I am satisfied now. My room still rattles a bit, but I'm guessing that's from the air pressure in my tiny room. I'm a happy camper now, but it's not perfect! Maybe I'm OCD.


That's not OCD, that's what BASS will do to ya ! :bigsmile:


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Thanks for all the help Craig and others. This is the best forum to ask for help. Much appreciated!


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## fido083 (Jan 23, 2011)

I had/have an 8" aperion s-8 and have been using it in my HT system in a 17x15 room with a 17 foot ceiling. A lot to ask from an 8" sub. It did very well at lower volumes and blended well. I decided to check out the Emo-12 and I love it. It definitely pounds the room more and required more "tweaking" (amp cross, level, sub cross, position, direction of speaker, phase, etc) in order to get it to blend well. I sounds pretty much the same but keeps up when i crank it.  I just have an onkyo 801 and the s-8 did well to a volume level of 70 (-12db rel.) the emo takes me their about the same now and keeps going and I haven't find the top yet.  

I suspect that in a small room, you may not need the overhead the emo has vs the small 8. I am no expert but I am speaking from my personal experience. I have never heard the HSU you have.

You could always use both subs . cross them at different freqs and exploit the best of both.


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## wil11o6 (Jun 24, 2010)

Yes, I understand that now, after tinkering with placement and just getting used to the sound. Going bigger causes bigger placement problems compared to my 8" where I could almost put it anywhere and get great bass. After weeks of testing the placements, I finally found the best spot, and with the subdude, I couldn't be happier now.
At low volumes, it sounds almost the same between the two. The Emo had a little more fullness to the bass as it has a flatter frequency instead of that 30hz bump the HSU had. But as I turn it up, the Emo is tons better as you can tell it sounds bigger and more accurate at high volumes. I am happy with it now. The difference between the two are there. It's just if u are willing to spend the extra money for it in a small room.


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