# Tower Suggestions [Looking at CBT36's]



## Scharfschutzen (Oct 15, 2013)

So I've been looking for towers to replace my Miller & Kreisel S-1B's that I've had for a few years now.

I've been heavily debating on the CBT36 system from Parts Express, mainly due to the fact I'm usually doing stuff around my house or listening room, stereo turned up. I've obsessively looked through the manual, multiple times, and feel it wouldn't be too difficult of a task to accomplish as I have the tools. I do enjoy quality--I don't enjoy loud pro-audio setups as much, such as being at the club--Screaming, ear-piercing treble designed to reach the back of the club with ease.

I feel as if the CBT36 wont be as accurate as something with higher-quality drivers, but is it -really- worth it in the end? especially whilst not "critical-listening" very often? I am 21 (good hearing) so I don't want to miss out on the opportunity to get a nicer-sounding system over loudness, though.

Does anyone else have an alternative suggestion on towers I could pickup or build for a similar price or should I pursue the CBT36s? (I've watched the $1000 and $2500 threads too.) I've gone to many HiFi stores, listening to setups way out of my price range just for experience. Such brands include Paradigm, KEF, B&W, Martin Logan, Klipsch (Dealer, not BB), KLH, Sonus Faber, etc. but I honestly haven't been impressed by much. 

My listening room is 12x11 (carpeted) w/ 8ft ceilings, but I have the option of using my basement (11x20) which is finished in an Owens Corning system (extremely dead) but I wasn't sure if that would adversely affect the CBT36's imaging or help it? My equipment is listed in my profile.

I appreciate any advice and thank you for your time!


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

First, welcome to Home Theater Shack!



Scharfschutzen said:


> I've gone to many HiFi stores, listening to setups way out of my price range just for experience. Such brands include Paradigm, KEF, B&W, Martin Logan, Klipsch (Dealer, not BB), KLH, Sonus Faber, etc. but I honestly haven't been impressed by much.


This is not a criticism, simply an observation along the lines of how difficult it can be to communicate one's requirements about something like speakers. You say that you would like a "nicer-sounding system," then mention most of the brands that would come to the minds of most HTS audio-types as offering the "nicer-sounding systems" and say that they have not impressed you. There are two possible explanations for this:

Many audio show rooms are not set up to present a speaker's finest sound. Plus, it is only in your own room that you will know for sure that a speaker is right for you. Many of the mentioned brands have exquisite-sounding speakers when set up properly. Get a pair into your listening room before passing judgment on it. Easier said than done, I know, but necessary nonetheless.
Maybe you are looking for a sound that does not fit the standard categories/characteristics these manufacturers target. If so, you will need to find a way to communicate your desired outcome clearly before anyone will be able to assist you much.



> My listening room is 12x11 (carpeted) w/ 8ft ceilings, but I have the option of using my basement (11x20) which is finished in an Owens Corning system (extremely dead) but I wasn't sure if that would adversely affect the CBT36's imaging or help it? My equipment is listed in my profile.


There is far more to consider than just deadness/liveness. Start a discussion thread in our Home Audio Acoustics forum, the topic is way beyond the scope of this thread. My own summary would be that early reflections are the main culprit messing up imaging, specifically the readily-identifiable "spikes" that stick out on the first 20 to 30 mS of an impulse diagram (the noise-like "hash" is more tolerable). Furthermore , a really dead room will support a simple, flat soundstage with good imaging but no depth, but will NOT support a spacious, deep soundstage if that is what you want (I personally could not live without it) - some liveness is needed for that to occur.

I wish you well with your quest.


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## omholt (Jun 5, 2007)

I think the CBT36 are excellent for both critical listening and for backround listening. Don't be fooled by the cheap drivers. The CBT36 are better in every aspect then a horn speaker I have with a high quality compression driver. Obviously the drivers in CBT36 are of good quality, or the amount removes the individual weaknesses. They are very transparent and open sounding. Encredible energy that makes good recordings sound like the real deal.

If you're room is narrow, you will need a couple of absorbents for a great imaging. But then I also have to say that they sound very nice and spacious in a small room with no sidewall treatment too, because they are so constant in their response. Like AudiocRaver said, it's a matter of imaging vs spaciousness.
The floor reflections is completely avoided with with the CBTs and the ceiling reflections are low in level without any treatment.

You a need a sub or two. Crossed over at 80 Hz or higher.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

I am surprised you found nothing in your search you would consider better then the SB-1s


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## Scharfschutzen (Oct 15, 2013)

AudiocRaver said:


> First, welcome to Home Theater Shack!....
> 
> I wish you well with your quest.


I completely agree with most setups not being in ideal conditions. Unfortunately, being a 21-year-old, most people don't allow me to audition $2000 speakers in my home, even when I offer a deposit.



omholt said:


> I think the CBT36 are excellent for both critical listening and for backround listening. Don't be fooled by the cheap drivers....
> 
> You a need a sub or two. Crossed over at 80 Hz or higher.


Awesome to hear. I do have two subs.



Andre said:


> I am surprised you found nothing in your search you would consider better then the SB-1s


Right? That's why I'm seeking your guidance. I HAVE found ribbon tweeters to be the most appealing (Such as playing with some DIY setups) but never something mass-manufactured.


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## omholt (Jun 5, 2007)

A ribbon CBT would be very nice to hear. Curious if it's much better then a CBT with dome tweeters. There are indications that it's minor because the amount of drivers and EQ largerly removes the individual quality of the driver. But who knows for sure in a great room and setup.


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## Andre (Feb 15, 2010)

> Right? That's why I'm seeking your guidance. I HAVE found ribbon tweeters to be the most appealing (Such as playing with some DIY setups) but never something mass-manufactured.


The ARX 5 was HTS's winner of speakers under $1000 and uses a Planar style tweeter

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/prod...ding-loudspeaker&cPath=21_32&products_id=227&


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

omholt said:


> A ribbon CBT would be very nice to hear. Curious if it's much better then a CBT with dome tweeters. There are indications that it's minor because the amount of drivers and EQ largerly removes the individual quality of the driver. But who knows for sure in a great room and setup.


I've heard all three of their offerings, those RAAL drivers are tough to beat. Those look like Selah Audio speakers. I know Rick Craig was working closely with Don Keele on a CBT array.


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## omholt (Jun 5, 2007)

tesseract said:


> I've heard all three of their offerings, those RAAL drivers are tough to beat. Those look like Selah Audio speakers. I know Rick Craig was working closely with Don Keele on a CBT array.


Yes. The picture above is a Selah Audio ArcArray. Placing it on a big woofer, isn't a good idea though. From what I understand it was done because the custome didn't have room for separate subs. 

A taller one with Raal drivers and without the subwoofer would be an interesting speaker.


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## ajinfla (May 10, 2009)

Scharfschutzen said:


> I feel as if the CBT36 wont be as accurate as something with higher-quality drivers, but is it -really- worth it in the end? especially whilst not "critical-listening" very often? I am 21 (good hearing) so I don't want to miss out on the opportunity to get a nicer-sounding system over loudness, though.


Well, at 21 and looking to spend $1-2.5k on speakers, I would have to assume you have a drivers license and maybe even a car.
As such, you are a 4hr drive from Chicago, where Axpona takes place in April. Rick had the CBTs there last year (where I heard them). You might contact him to see if they will have them there this year.
Yes, it's ideal to audition loudspeakers in your own home. No question. But it is also ideal to have a (very?) large sample size, to see if there may be something you prefer better than what you think you might prefer.
Those two issues are usually in conflict, because it is simply not realistic to be able to home audition 100+ speakers.
Enter the "audio show". Hundreds of speakers...yes, in rooms that aren't yours. But you get to hear/see/experience them all first hand, in what is often a very challenging environment...a hotel room.
It may allow you to parse the selection down, to where you only need to home audition the finalists.
Or, maybe you will be so smitten by the CBT (or other similar speaker) upon hearing it, your journey is over.
Food for thought.

cheers

p.s. Omholt, nice setup


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## Scharfschutzen (Oct 15, 2013)

ajinfla said:


> Well, at 21 and looking to spend $1-2.5k on speakers, I would have to assume you have a drivers license and maybe even a car.
> As such, you are a 4hr drive from Chicago, where Axpona takes place in April. Rick had the CBTs there last year (where I heard them). You might contact him to see if they will have them there this year.
> Yes, it's ideal to audition loudspeakers in your own home. No question. But it is also ideal to have a (very?) large sample size, to see if there may be something you prefer better than what you think you might prefer.
> Those two issues are usually in conflict, because it is simply not realistic to be able to home audition 100+ speakers.
> ...


Of course I have a vehicle! I have a very nice sound-system in it, too! 
This would probably be my best bet.

I have taken a drive to Dayton Ohio to visit Parts Express' store but was not impressed by anything there.

I have since built 2-way towers with 2x RS225s and XT25TG30s and am quite satisfied with the results, especially for the price I paid (drivers and crossover compoents laying around, box material was free due to a favor.) I know I am still craving a larger-than-necessary system but I figured I should keep SPL in the car.

Thank you for all of your suggestions


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## Scharfschutzen (Oct 15, 2013)

Bump!

I am hoping to find a review or comparison regarding the CBT36s to other systems in the ~2k range.
Since posting, I have listened to quite a few speakers, but nothing of which I have been _super_ impressed by. I have my favorites at the bottom of the post, but maybe someone could provide some insight or provide a step in the right direction. 

I listened to speakers above my price-range to educate myself. I moved the speakers around a lot trying to get a feel for listening rooms (understanding they may not be the best for that speaker.) 

*Salk Sound*

Songtowers (Very neutral, not not the best imaging, but overall great)
Supercharged Songtowers (A little brighter, I definitely preferred these over the songtowers but 4k/pair)
Soundscape 8s (one of the best "neutral" sounding speakers with fast highs and TIGHT, fast bass but 8k/pair)

*B&W*

CM9's (Great imaging, but very bright. 3k/pair pricetag)
Everything below CM9s I was not impressed by at all, even in a heavily-treated room.

*Paradigm*

Studio 60s (Also great imaging, unnaturally bright. Measurements taken that day coincide with what I heard.)
Monitor 11 (Not bad, not great, very similar to Studio 60s with slightly worse imaging)

*MartinLogan*

Electrostatic ESL (These imaged and sounded great, but my head was forced into a vice. Off-axis was dull. I read the review on here regarding facing them straight and EQ'ing the highs but haven't experienced it first-hand.)
Motion 40 (Very great sound, similar to ESL whilst on-axis. Off axis was very well, but imaging was poor)

*Klipsch*

Klipschorns (These sounded amazing on-axis but wayy too much bass for normal listening, 8k pricetag)
RF 82-II (Very bright and bassy, enjoyable to listen to, probably amazing for home-theater, but not a critical-listening speaker)

*Magnepan*

MMG (These sounded decent. A little dull, but definitely had a unique sound to them
1.7 (These were really good, slightly dull with poor off-axis and could not get very loud without distorting, even on a 260wpc amp. I did like the spaciousness they had to offer, assuming I was locked at the listening position.
3.7 (These pretty much sounded the same as the 1.7s, only slightly more "defined", but could get a lot louder. Didn't investigate off-axis, was getting late, 6k pricetag)

*Vandersteen*

2Ce II (Bright and could be easily located, i.e. did not "disappear" although very enjoyable to listen to)

*Geddes*

Abbey 12C (These were AMAZING sounding with uncompressed/live music but very revealing, i.e. poor source material sounded awful. I did not experience this with any other speaker I listened to. They had an excessive amount of mid-bass: It made drums sound very real with rock, but unnaturally boomy with anything else. Listened in Geddes' listening room, according to him measuring very flat and expensive at 6k/pair)

My favorites would have to be the MartinLogans, Magnepans, and Salk Sound speakers.
MartinLogans had probably the best overall sound, although a lack of bass was undesired.
The Magnepans, also very fast and had the bass, were WIDE, did not have the best off-axis. Sometimes I don't sit in the listening position but am around the house etc.
Finally, Salk's speakers offered the most neutral sound but did not have the best imaging.

Again, hopefully someone can provide me some insight on an enjoyable speaker for my price range!


If not, I will definitely be making it to the Audiofest 2015 since I missed 2014's (which the CBT36's were at) in hope they will be there again.


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## jamesfrazier (Jul 24, 2011)

http://reaction-audio.myshopify.com/collections/speakers/products/cx-15t-pre-order


These seem to have been very pleasing for the price. Go check out reviews/discussions over at avs.


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## omholt (Jun 5, 2007)

Martin Logan and Magnepan are speakers with very low dynamic capacities. Though they have some very good attributes, they easily get borring to listen in the long run. 

CBTs and good horns (not the poor commercial ones) are in another league. Horns are more directional and have better dynamics. CBTs fill all of the room with great sound due to it's wider dispersion, which also means more lateral contribution unless you treat the sidewalls.
A good horn speaker will however cost much more then CBT36. Just a quality compression driver cost as much. Oh, the CBT36XL will be out soon by the way. It's a bigger CBT speakers with higher sensitivity. It will only be sold in a passive version from Partsexpress (the market prefers passive). I don't know the price tag.

Remember that good imaging is realated to amount of reflections. In other words, it's something you can experience with any speakers as long as you treat the early reflection points. 

Besides CBT36 I have by the way Geddes Abbey (in a home theater) and DIY Klispch horns you see below.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

omholt said:


> Martin Logan and Magnepan are speakers with very low dynamic capacities. Though they have some very good attributes, they easily get borring to listen in the long run.
> 
> CBTs and good horns (not the poor commercial ones) are in another league. Horns are more directional and have better dynamics. CBTs fill all of the room with great sound due to it's wider dispersion, which also means more lateral contribution unless you treat the sidewalls.
> A good horn speaker will however cost much more then CBT36. Just a quality compression driver cost as much. Oh, the CBT36XL will be out soon by the way. It's a bigger CBT speakers with higher sensitivity. It will only be sold in a passive version from Partsexpress (the market prefers passive). I don't know the price tag.
> ...


Excellent post, you beat me to saying 80% of the same thing. I will add a couple of points of my own:

True that panel speakers - to me, especially electrostatics - are not as dynamic as horns, their clarity, speed, and low distortion make up for a great deal. And I never bore of listening with them. Granted, I have heard of a few who have left electrostatics for horns. No doubt your own experience has led you to your stated conclusion, which I would never presume to argue with.

And I totally agree with your "controlling early reflections" statement. My only addition would be that having the front wall of the listening room (behind the speakers) completely clear - which makes for a bare-looking end of the room - is a huge first step to getting apples-to-apples comparison of soundstage and imaging comparisons of different speaker models. It becomes less an advantage with horns, more of one with dipoles.


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