# Playing with the rat shack SPL meter



## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Today I stopped at Radio Shack and bought an analog SPL meter.
I played these test tones http://www.audiocheck.net/testtones_sinebursts20-200.php 
I put the numbers in a spreadsheet and here is what I have.
No offsets have been added to the numbers.

This is the freq response of my main speakers.
If a sub is added to the system is there any point in getting one that does not stay flat to 20Hz ?


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

That is a pretty good response curve for mains, and to answer the question, you can get 15 Hz or better, with some patience and $800.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

HaHa... $800 and patience eh ?
Do you include a big bag of patience with each sub ??

Good news though...
The wifey gave me a state of the finances update yesterday and when she was done she wanted to know how much one of the big black boxes I have been looking at for the last few months costs.

I thought I was wearing her down, but she caught me off guard and she was surprised that I could not tell her which sub I wanted.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

chashint said:


> HaHa... $800 and patience eh ?
> Do you include a big bag of patience with each sub ??
> 
> Good news though...
> ...


The patience is on you. And I was 36 when I got the nod for my first post getting married dedicated subwoofer, though I did get a pair of VMPS Super Towers at age 34....

I undertand having to get her "ok". It's called domestic bliss.

Drop lilgator, Diamond Delts, MKTheater, Spuzio, Zora, or a few other guys a note and ask them what is the best $800 you can spend.


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

A good sub will always be beneficial for music, and definitely needed for HT. The question is, how much sub do you need and can afford? For those on a budget the Emotiva Sub 12 is a bargain, on sale for $439 shipped. Check out this review http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/ultra-12. It's true it won't dive as deep as much more expensive subs, but after reading the review it seems to be a winner. If you really want to rock the place a ported sub might be what you want, and this one is $800 shipped http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=618. Remember, ultra low response is nice to have, but the law of diminishing returns kicks in quickly. Most would be very happy with a sub like the Emotiva (or two!), but there are always bigger and badder subs if you really want them. Good luck!


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Hey how did the new SS-18.2 and WAF cabinets look ?
Were you happy with them ?
I like the design of the down firing SS-18.1 cabinet and I am looking forward to seeing how that turns out.

Wifey does not care if I spend money on a subwoofer.
She is concerned about more rumble and boom being heard in the bedroom and its a valid concern.

I am the one going crazy about issues with SQ, room nulls, reliability, placement, EQ, ported/sealed.... you know all the subwoofer stuff.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I am probaly missing something, but the Emotiva Ultra-12 freq response is not very impressive looking to me. I really don't see how it would be better than what I have right now.

A lot of the ED subs have very good freq response and they are still in the contenders column.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

chashint said:


> Hey how did the new SS-18.2 and WAF cabinets look ?
> Were you happy with them ?
> I like the design of the down firing SS-18.1 cabinet and I am looking forward to seeing how that turns out.
> 
> ...


I just brought on SS-18.2 into my place tonight before going to a fund raiser for a local Catholic school. It's about 95 percent what we want. It is Satin smooth, and the finish is non glossy and tough. There are a few areas where the finish is not totally smooth.

I need to first check out the other 26 cabinets and talk to the OEM.

From 3 feet away, you won't notice a thing, but it is still not perfect.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

craigsub said:


> I just brought on SS-18.2 into my place tonight before going to a fund raiser for a local Catholic school. It's about 95 percent what we want. It is Satin smooth, and the finish is non glossy and tough. There are a few areas where the finish is not totally smooth.
> I need to first check out the other 26 cabinets and talk to the OEM.
> From 3 feet away, you won't notice a thing, but it is still not perfect.


I understand, that last 5 - 10% is the toughest to get, and once you get it you have to watch it like a hawk or the vendor will backslide into their old habits.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

chashint said:


> I understand, that last 5 - 10% is the toughest to get, and once you get it you have to watch it like a hawk or the vendor will backslide into their old habits.


The OEM is really working hard for us. The wood finish SHO-10's they sent are fantastic. 

Here is a pic:










They are used to wood finishes ... and do a lot of furniture. I plan on looking at the other 26 cabinets this week. I will also get pics done tomorrow so our customers can see where we are with this one cabinet.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Oh yeah, now that looks first class.


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

chashint said:


> I am probaly missing something, but the Emotiva Ultra-12 freq response is not very impressive looking to me. I really don't see how it would be better than what I have right now.
> 
> A lot of the ED subs have very good freq response and they are still in the contenders column.


You're looking at the response of a sealed sub, which rely on room gain and eq to dig deep. Even much larger 18" sealed subs drop off quickly, the response graph for one such sub shown here has a -3db point around 30hz!


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

Of course, if you want the lowest and loudest, this sub says it can hit 127db at 20hz, tough to top that! 
http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator/


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## Rijax (Jul 20, 2006)

Floridapoolboy said:


> Of course, if you want the lowest and loudest, this sub says it can hit 127db at 20hz, tough to top that!
> http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator/


 With amplifier, MSRP $2999. :yikes: Manufactured Direct (whatever that means) $2399.


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

Actually it's $1199 if you have your own amp. If you want their amp, it's $2399, but their amp is a true 4000 watt pro amp, which is, as you know, hard to find!


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm still waiting for the day when all these new sub companies actually submit their subs for a real, third party shootout. I guess I'll stick with my twin Outlaws until I can see all these performance claims verified!


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Floridapoolboy said:


> I'm still waiting for the day when all these new sub companies actually submit their subs for a real, third party shootout. I guess I'll stick with my twin Outlaws until I can see all these performance claims verified!


Steve - Since you have asked for this to be done, who should conduct these tests? Please detail not only who this third party should be, but what are their qualifications for doing the test?


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

craigsub said:


> Steve - Since you have asked for this to be done, who should conduct these tests? Please detail not only who this third party should be, but what are their qualifications for doing the test?


Howdy Craig, nice to see you here! Since I don't get a chance to do these sort of tests myself, I would recommend Audioholics. They are a well respected on line audio site, and are now actively involved in doing sub shootouts. Since different sources may have different criteria, letting Audioholics do them all would give us a chance to view "apples to apples" results. Check out their latest reviews of the Rythmik and SVS subs, seems like they do a good job!


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/pb12-plus

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/rythmik-fv15hp

Here, check these out.


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/ultra-12

One more review, nice. Looks like they're the most active sub reviewers at the moment. I'd like to see all the new popular subs reviewed here, it would help level the playing field for us consumers.


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Alright Steve, next month when I do my review of the Axiom EP800, I'll do a head-to-head with my Outlaw LFM-1 EX. Just for you man! :T


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## Rijax (Jul 20, 2006)

Dale, I'll be eager to hear what you have to say about the EP800. :yes:


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

Dale Rasco said:


> Alright Steve, next month when I do my review of the Axiom EP800, I'll do a head-to-head with my Outlaw LFM-1 EX. Just for you man! :T


Excellent! I didn't know they still made that sub, it was quite the big deal back in the day. I'm sure it will outperform the EX, but I wonder how it will stack up against all the new sub entries. Hefty price tag, hope it can still deliver the goods!


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## Rijax (Jul 20, 2006)

If your comment is referring to the Axiom sub, though I could be mistaken, I think you may be thinking of the ported, single driver EP600, which has been around for a few years. 










The EP800 is a relatively new, sealed, dual driver sub.


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

Correct! The EP800 came out in 09' sometime.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Floridapoolboy said:


> http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/pb12-plus
> 
> http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/rythmik-fv15hp
> 
> Here, check these out.


What SPL do the various traces represent ?


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

chashint said:


> What SPL do the various traces represent ?


You should read the noted article on CEA testing, I'm sure it will be more informative than I can be! The short version is that, as a useful metric, the box listing the CEA maximum peak spl at the 6 frequencies noted is a good starting point towards meaningful comparisons between various subwoofers. Without a standardized benchmark comparisons between subs can often be reduced to manufacturers claims and owner hyperbole. At least Audioholics is trying to get a baseline going, everyone with a sub to sell should be anxious to see how their product compares.


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

Rijax said:


> If your comment is referring to the Axiom sub, though I could be mistaken, I think you may be thinking of the ported, single driver EP600, which has been around for a few years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are correct, I was thinking of the older ported model. I have since read a few reviews of the EP800, it seems to offer impressive performance, albeit at an equally impressive price. This is where I would like to see some shootout testing, at that price it's right up there with the powered Captivator. "Two will enter, one will leave..." Bring on the shootout!


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Floridapoolboy said:


> You should read the noted article on CEA testing, I'm sure it will be more informative than I can be! The short version is that, as a useful metric, the box listing the CEA maximum peak spl at the 6 frequencies noted is a good starting point towards meaningful comparisons between various subwoofers. Without a standardized benchmark comparisons between subs can often be reduced to manufacturers claims and owner hyperbole. At least Audioholics is trying to get a baseline going, everyone with a sub to sell should be anxious to see how their product compares.


Steve, it is important that people understand what this CEA standard is, and how it was derived, especially if you are going to use it as a benchmark for performance.

As you have brought CEA into this discussion, you must feel comfortable in explaining to people what the measuring methodology is. So ... some questions for you:

1. What are the frequencies tested?
2. What is the length of time for each frequency tested? Specifically, how long does the subwoofer have reproduce each frequency?
3. What are the harmonic distortion levels permitted by this test?
4. How can anyone take the measurements in this test and apply it to real world listening situations?
5. Since this test stops at 20 Hz, and if this test is a standard, why would any subwoofer manufacturer bother to build a subwoofer capable of high levels of bass below 20 Hz?


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

craigsub said:


> Steve, it is important that people understand what this CEA standard is, and how it was derived, especially if you are going to use it as a benchmark for performance.
> 
> As you have brought CEA into this discussion, you must feel comfortable in explaining to people what the measuring methodology is. So ... some questions for you:
> 
> ...


Please Craig, go ahead and answer, as you have much more experience than me in these areas! I'm just a consumer, after all, and I'm just looking for a way to end the confusion and be able to look at a set of figures and make a meaningful comparison. If I need to brush up on why they do what they do I can certainly learn all I need to know on the internet, right? For now I just would like to see anyone who purports to be a manufacturer stand behind a standardized set of measurements, and have their products tested, so we can compare without bias. Not too much to ask, is it?


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

Here, I came up with this http://www.audioholics.com/educatio...10-subwoofer-shootout/2010-subwoofer-shootout 

Please don't quiz me again, I hated pop quizzes as a school boy and my attitude towards them certainly hasn't changed now!


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Floridapoolboy said:


> Please Craig, go ahead and answer, as you have much more experience than me in these areas! I'm just a consumer, after all, and I'm just looking for a way to end the confusion and be able to look at a set of figures and make a meaningful comparison. If I need to brush up on why they do what they do I can certainly learn all I need to know on the internet, right? For now I just would like to see anyone who purports to be a manufacturer stand behind a standardized set of measurements, and have their products tested, so we can compare without bias. Not too much to ask, is it?


Steve, you brought this test into the discussion without understanding the methodology used. I am not trying to pick on you, but anyone who suggests that people look into a test as meaningful should understand the test as it is done.

Let's compare, for example, one easy to understand aspect of the AH test to the test Ilkka did here a few years ago.

And let's just use one frequency - 50 Hz - and compare the TC-Sounds LMS-5400 Ilkka tested using CEA standards to the Rythmik FV15-HP ported sub as tested in AH.

With 3600 watts available, Ilkka measured 125.6 dB @ 50 Hz from the LMS-5400 (adjusted from 2 to 1 meter), which is in line with the 3 dB peak output over the 3600 watts available, meaning a 7200 watt peak. This was in accordance with CEA standards, and the LMS-5400 would be moving. This all matches up nicely with what WIN-ISD models the unit. 

AH measured the FV15-HP at 125.9 dB @ 50 Hz with a 600 watt amp. 

A 38 mm X-Max, 18 inch driver being fed 3600 continuous watts loses to a 15 MM X-Max, 15 inch driver being fed a continuous 600 watts?

Both under CEA testing standards? 

Perhaps if Audioholics made available its exact test methodology to every manufacturer, it could be one standard, but it certainly will not be THE standard.

This is one of many areas in which the CEA standard is not quite the standard some believe.


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

craigsub said:


> Steve, you brought this test into the discussion without understanding the methodology used. I am not trying to pick on you, but anyone who suggests that people look into a test as meaningful should understand the test as it is done.
> 
> Let's compare, for example, one easy to understand aspect of the AH test to the test Ilkka did here a few years ago.
> 
> ...


Maybe we should stick to a single testing entity, as I suggested? Not to fault Ilkka, but a primary source of results variation is having two separate sources doing the testing, with data needing to be extrapolated, etc. Standardized testing is the only way to ensure that results are comparable. Just because someone "knows" that one sub should be better than another really doesn't cut it, do the testing on both and let the numbers speak for themselves. I don't know enough about any competing standards, but I do know that if every sub was tested according to the CEA standards we consumers would at least have a starting point from which to base our purchasing decisions.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Floridapoolboy said:


> Maybe we should stick to a single testing entity, as I suggested? Not to fault Ilkka, but a primary source of results variation is having two separate sources doing the testing, with data needing to be extrapolated, etc. Standardized testing is the only way to ensure that results are comparable. Just because someone "knows" that one sub should be better than another really doesn't cut it, do the testing on both and let the numbers speak for themselves. I don't know enough about any competing standards, but I do know that if every sub was tested according to the CEA standards we consumers would at least have a starting point from which to base our purchasing decisions.


Steve, you are not paying attention - Both the test done by Ilkka and the one done by AH were conducted using the CEA standards. By definition, this means it is one standard from one entity. 

You are also making a declarative statement without knowing what the standards even are. 

What would you think if you knew the standards were written with the input of several of the major subwoofer manufacturers? Would you then question the methodology?

You want to say you don't like pop quizzes, but you keep presenting this CEA standard as if it is in some way protecting the consumer.

Were you aware, for example, that at 50 Hz, the CEA standard calls for the signal as tested to be 0.13 seconds in duration, and that it allows 31.6 percent in 2nd harmonic distortion alone?


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

craigsub said:


> Steve, you are not paying attention - Both the test done by Ilkka and the one done by AH were conducted using the CEA standards. By definition, this means it is one standard from one entity.
> 
> You are also making a declarative statement without knowing what the standards even are.
> 
> ...



Craig, it's time for you to pay attention. I'm asking for standardized testing so all subs are on an equal playing field! I really don't care about the nitty gritty of the testing protocol, based on the fact that prior to this there really wasn't ANY protocol. Why are you so adamant about the CEA standard not being a good thing? If you would simply let your products be tested we could then directly compare them to the Rhythmik, SVS, Hsu, Emotiva, etc. that have already been tested. Surely this would be a good thing, right? If someone comes up with a better testing method then fine, let's switch! For now, why don't all manufacturers get on board and support this? It reminds me of the early days in this hobby, when amplifier manufacturers were making wild claims about their products. When the industry finally went with a standard we consumers could see at a glance if we were buying a real 100 watt receiver or some bogus inflated claim.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Floridapoolboy said:


> Craig, it's time for you to pay attention. I'm asking for standardized testing so all subs are on an equal playing field! I really don't care about the nitty gritty of the testing protocaol, based on the fact that prior to this there really wasn't ANY protocol. Why are you so adamant about the CEA standard not being a good thing? If you would simply let your products be tested we could then directly compare them to the Rhythmik, SVS, Hsu, Emotiva, etc. that have already been tested. Surely this would be a good thing, right? If someone comes up with a better testing method then fine, let's switch! For now, why don't all manufacturers get on board and support this? It reminds me of the early days in this hobby, when amplifier manufacturers were making wild claims about their products. When the industry finally went with a standard we consumers could see at a glance if we were buying a real 100 watt receiver or some bogus inflated claim.


Steve, what is funny is we used to have a standard which was stringent: Sine waves at a frequency using no more than 10 percent THD.

This new CEA standard is much like amplifier standards were before they were forced to give continuous output levels at a stated distortion.

If you support this CEA standard, then you support the following for subwoofer tests:

Total Harmonic distortion of over 40 percent

Test tones that range from 0.325 to .103 seconds - in simpler terms, the longest signal is less than 1/3 of a second in duration. 

As a manufacturer, I LOVE this test. As someone who thinks a consumer deserves useful information about how a subwoofer should perform, I think the old standard of posting what a subwoofer can do using sine waves at each frequency with under 10 percent THD is more useful.

As for The Audioholics test - they picked the manufacturers they wanted. It was not an open to everyone test. But you already knew this.


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## D.T.MIKE (Feb 14, 2010)

craigsub said:


> Steve, what is funny is we used to have a standard which was stringent: Sine waves at a frequency using no more than 10 percent THD.
> 
> This new CEA standard is much like amplifier standards were before they were forced to give continuous output levels at a stated distortion.
> 
> ...


Agree with you Craig, the old method of subwoofer testing is far more representative of real in home performance vs the new standard. I can see why some manufacturers like the new standard... making their products shine especially to someone that is not to familiar as to how the numbers were achieved. Sort of like higher watt rated receivers that catch the eye of the consumer.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

The Emotiva Ultra 12 was reviewed earlier in January and the standard unit of measurement was used.
Audioholics has switched to dBV instead of SPL (dB) and has normalized the graphs to 0dBV on the last two sub reviews.
The link to the CEA standards does not say anything about the dBV unit of measurement compared to straight up SPL (dB) which has been the defacto standard.
Audioholics also posted one graph with six traces and one with eight... so they are certainly not following a script when they do the testing.

I don't really care if they test the subs exactly the same or not (I am just not that nit picky) but it is annoying that they have changed the unit of measure for freq response vs. output.
I would just like to know the SPL represented in the graphs of the last two reviews Audioholics has posted.
If this is obvious and I have somehow missed it simply tell me the conversion offset and its all good.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

craigsub said:


> Steve, what is funny is we used to have a standard which was stringent: Sine waves at a frequency using no more than 10 percent THD.
> 
> This new CEA standard is much like amplifier standards were before they were forced to give continuous output levels at a stated distortion.
> 
> ...


Well they did take a lot of suggestions from members so lets not discount that. 

I think subwoofer testing would be a lot of fun if I had the setup for it, but the ground plane 2m test seems to work extremely well. There are certainly plenty of things to test, but cost limits how many comparisons a person can make.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

lsiberian said:


> Well they did take a lot of suggestions from members so lets not discount that.
> 
> I think subwoofer testing would be a lot of fun if I had the setup for it, but the ground plane 2m test seems to work extremely well. There are certainly plenty of things to test, but cost limits how many comparisons a person can make.


Yes, They did take suggestions from forum members, which is great. They were also asked to include several manufacturers in the test, and these manufacturers, one of whom was CHT, were excluded from being invited.

It's their forum, and they have every right to exclude anyone the choose. However, when the excluded company is then challenged for not being in the test, this is not exactly reasonable, is it?

For example, let's say Sonnie decided to have a subwoofer shootout. He invites Epik, SVS, Chase Home Theater and Elemental Designs to the dance. 

A forum member mentions, say, Rythmik. That member gets ignored. Another member mentions Rythmik, and it gets ignored again.

Later, Rythmik finds it was not only ignored, it was chastised for not participating in the test. 

Of course, Sonnie would never resort to this ... but you get the idea.


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## Floridapoolboy (Jan 27, 2011)

Why would Audioholics exclude CHT? Please elaborate if you would be so kind!


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't think Craig was saying it was malicious in nature, just that they were excluded in lieu of other manufacturers. The point of his statement was to explain that CHT, or any other manufacturer that was not included, would then have to defend a certain position when it wasn't there choice to be left out in the first place.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Dale would be correct. We were asked to participate in another test of five subwoofers, and are looking forward to the results.

Those 5 subwoofers are the Hsu VTF-15, Rythmik FV-15, Epik Empire, Elemental Designs A7S-450 and our CS-18.1

The test is a volunteer test from Madeel and Below90Hz ... two brothers who love bass, and who are conducting this test entirely on their own, including at their own expense.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

One of the guys I work with is going to give me a Yamaha sub to play with.
He does not know what model it is and even if its the top model I don't expect a lot out of it.
It is quite possible my RF-83s will have better low-end freq response than it does.
If nothing else is accomplished with it I will have something to play with and I can learn how the different LFE options in the AVR work.
I can also count the time I use the SPL meter towards its depreciation.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I piddled around and made a drawing of my room today.
I have seen other threads where a room layout was posted and some of you guys know how to predict the nulls and the best place to put a sub.
The place I will want to put a sub is on the left side of the TV, between the left speaker (black rectangle) and the chest of drawers (brown rectangle on left).
There is enough room to scrunch the TV and speakers towards the fireplace and free up 7 inces and then the chest can move left far enough for a sub to fit between it and the left speaker.
The other place would be in the bottom right corner behind the chair, but it is a distant second on preferred placement.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

Chas - My first inclination is the corner to the right of the love seat, but you are going to need to experiment with placement to find out what works the best. The room is so complicated, with all the openings into other rooms, that running a null/node calculator isn't going to work.

Is the love seat the primary place where you watch movies?


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I know the room is poor for HT use, but its all I have and since its paid for it ain't going anywhere soon LOL.

The graph I posted of my speaker response was taken in the chair located in the bottom right corner.
That chair is my recliner and I sit there most of the time, my wife sits on the left side of the love seat and that is the sweet spot for listening to music.

The wall on the right is all windows all the way across, so there won't be much reinforcement from the lower right corner, but I guess some is better than none.

I have been to two HT dealers that had the sub positioned nearfield and behind the seating (placing the sub in my lower right corner would be very similar to those two dealer setups).

I knew exactly where the sub was at in both theaters and it was somewhat distracting to hear the bass coming from behind me.
My brother was with me on that trip and he was maybe 3 or 4 ft farther away from the sub in both places and when we were talking about it later he said he could not tell where the sub was, he said it sounded like bass was coming from everywhere to him.

Now that you can see the layout I think you understand why I don't think I will get any room gain.

Here are some pics of the room, sorry about it being a little messy.


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## craigsub (Sep 9, 2006)

That's a great looking home ! And you will definitely want to experiment with placement. The area you selected as your first choice may work just fine.


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## Rijax (Jul 20, 2006)

Chas, all of who live in less than perfect situations face compromise. Experiment a little, do the best you can, and then stop worrying about it and sit back and enjoy the movies and music. :clap:


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Thanks, its just a cookie cutter tract home.
If I had known that my wife's plan was to retire as soon as we paid it off I think I would have voted to keep the money in the savings account instead of writing that big check :doh:

LOL... Experimenting with placement is going to be pretty easy, its going to go between the left speaker and the chest of drawers or in the corner behind the recliner. 
Since that chest of drawers and the entertainment center are both very heavy I will probably throw it in the corner first because that will be the easiest and if it does not drive me crazy being behind me that is probably where it will stay.

Yes, everything is a compromise and that is OK, I don't have to have perfection.
I think I have really good sound with the system like it is now, I also know there is some bass that I am not getting and I want it 

And yes, I am probably worrying about picking the right sub way too much.
Its just all the stories I read about people being unable to integrate them into their room or getting what is considered to be one of the 'super' subwoofers and immediately 'needing' to purchase a second one to even out the bass... it just makes me hesitant.

My wife was quizzing me this morning about what my next target will be once I buy the sub... little does she know I have already been scoping out wood turning lathes and a new truck :yes:


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