# Help picking new amps



## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm sending back my Emotivas as i've had nothing but trouble with theLED indicator lights on them i've sent back 1 XPA5 allready and now i'm getting ready to send back my 2nd XPA2. I don't know why i'm having this issue but i'd say it's a quality control thing. I'm tired of lifting 80 lb amps out of my rack 3 differant times so i'm getting a refund.

I was hopeing you folks could help me choose an amp or 2 that won't brake the bank i've been looking at Outlaw audio but am unfamiliar with them just as i was with Emotiva, the only thing with them is there high shipping costs, i was also wondering if they sold through dealers or just over the net. Also i'd like to stay away from the used market unless i can get somekind of warrenty. 

Budget: about 2000

Thanks in advance, Bambino.:T


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Sorry to read of your problems with your Emotiva Amplifiers. Is the 2000 Dollar budget for 5 Channels or 7?
I am a huge fan of Parasound and you should be able to get a New Classic 5250 for around 2000 Dollars from an Authorized Dealer.

If expanding to used, Parasound's Halo A51 is an awesome Amplifier that retails for 4500 Dollars and is often available for around 2000 Dollars. In terms of Power Supply and Capacitance, few Amplifiers can come close.
It offers twice as large a Toroidal Transformer as the XPA-5 and almost 3 times the amount of Capacitance.
The Reviews for the A51 are beyond positive. I have used a HCA-2205AT (A51 is heavily based off it) for almost a Decade and it has been rock solid. I never turn off my Amplifiers as well. Same with my HCA-3500.

I would watch this Auction for an A51:http://cgi.ebay.com/Parasound-51-Am...ultDomain_0&hash=item3cb04d01a1#ht_938wt_1139
Cheers,
JJ


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I would like a 5 channel or 7 channel or 5 & 2. But for now a 5 channel would suffice as i could use the AVR to power my rears allthough they are large.

I have been looking at the Outlaw 7 channel (which sounds like it's a true monster) It comes with a sherwood/newcaslte AVR for almost 3800 including shipping (170$ shipping) the AVR is old school though as it does not have HDMI:huh:, I'm very close to pulling the trigger on it unless i get the great advice from you guys as i always do. thanks again.:T


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
It figures that Outlaw is offering the S/N AVR as the Outlaw SSP that was cancelled was based off the R-972. While the Trinnov EQ and Reon HQV Processing are quite appealing, there have been major issues with this AVR.

The issues which have plagued the R-972 seem to be the reason why Outlaw never released the SSP. For some time, Outlaw was offering the Onkyo PR-SC886 instead of the S/N. I would still highly advise that choice.
Cheers,
JJ


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

The way i figure it is that i could always sell the AVR (as it's not needed) and get a little return on the totle cost of things. Any idea what a fair price would be for such an old school AVR, on the review i read it use to retail for 2000.

I was wondering your thoughts also on the capacitance of that amp (7900 model) and about the toroidial power, Basically your general thoughts on the amp. Thanks for replying jack, much appreciated.:T


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I gotta say, the 7900 looks quite impressive. This is the type of Amplifier which is truly limited by the amount of power your HT can provide. In truth, you really do need a 15A Dedicated Line to the HT to get the most out of this Amplifier. 

Regardless, it would provide more than enough power for any Application. I really like that it is a Fully Balanced Design as well. I see that the S/N AVR is not the current R-972 and is the older R-965. I am not sure how much money you could get back, but it should yield a couple hundred Dollars.
Cheers,
JJ


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Power requirements are kind of what attract me to this amp requireing dual 15amp circuits (WOW!)
I guess my main concern is the quality of this brand as i would not like to have any issues like what i've experianced. Thanks for your help Jack.:T


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Outlaw truly makes a quality Product and has excellent Customer Service. I definitely prefer them to Emotiva personally. That being said, I would rather have an XPA-1 or XPA-2 over a Crown or Behringer.

I realize many do not share my views and certainly respect that. I just personally believe in huge Power Supplies and Capacitor Banks. The Outlaw definitely is the type of Amplifier I gravitate towards.
Cheers,
JJ


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Outlaw truly makes a quality Product and has excellent Customer Service. I definitely prefer them to Emotiva personally. That being said, I would rather have an XPA-1 or XPA-2 over a Crown or Behringer.
> 
> I realize many do not share my views and certainly respect that. I just personally believe in huge Power Supplies and Capacitor Banks. The Outlaw definitely is the type of Amplifier I gravitate towards.
> ...


I agree on the Crown and Behirnger views as those to me should serve as subwoofer amps only just my 2cents.
The Emotiva's truly did make a night and day differance in my system, there only downfall with me has been the non working status lights, also the XPA1 & 2 offer alot more power then any of there other amps but with the issues i've had has turned me off to them, they have been great customer service wise, i was acctually kind of expecting someone to try and make things right since they have been so wrong 3 outta 4 times but they just shot me an RMA and said sorry things didn't work out, so back on the hunt i am.

I value your views JJ and was hopeing for you to be the one to chime in (i hope others will as well). With that being said, i will wait for my refund to come through, continue to hunt and take advice and let you all know what i figure out. Thanks once again, Bambino.:T


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I really would give consideration to Parasound as well. Especially the Halo Line or older HCA Series as they were both Designed by John Curl. I would see if there are any Parasound Dealers in your Area and look at Audiogon to see if there are any Used Listings.

I realize buying Used can be problematic, but Parasound's really are built to last. Another choice would be Bryston. With Bryston, there is a 20 Year Fully Transferrable Warranty. Bryston is used by many of the Best Recording Studios and Touring Musicians.
Check out the Client List:http://bryston.com/user1.html
And Parasound's:http://www.parasound.com/about.php
Cheers,
JJ


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Thanks JJ, Parasound has been at the top of my list before i heard about Emotiva, I think Bryston is way outta the ballpark for me but i only gave audiogon a quick glance as the twins make it difficult to do serious shopping and comparison untill they go to bed. Audiogon shopping i will be as you never know what can pop up. :T 

Thanks, Bambino.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

So... I think i may have found an amp and was hopeing for your thoughts on it. It's the Earthquake sound Cinenova Grande 7, wondering if it is better then the Outlaw i was looking at, the power it has is phenominal at the price, just looking for some feed back. Thanks again, Bambino.:T


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Cinenova makes excellent Amplifiers. Tons of power and excellent Build Quality.
Cheers,
JJ


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Thanks JJ, I'm pulling the trigger on it. I'll be sure to let you all know what i find in this beast,(4KVA transformer) WOW!:bigsmile:


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Truly going to be an awesome upgrade. The Input Impedance is kinda low so some AVR's might have issues driving the inputs. My Aragon is similar in this respect, but has an even lower impedance (22 kOhms versus 27 kOhms).
Cheers,
JJ


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Truly going to be an awesome upgrade. The Input Impedance is kinda low so some AVR's might have issues driving the inputs. My Aragon is similar in this respect, but has an even lower impedance (22 kOhms versus 27 kOhms).
> Cheers,
> JJ


Do dedicated preamps have higher outputs to drive these large amps? I'm not sure what the Emotivas are rated at but my Denon 3808 didn't seem to have an issue with them. Whats the worst that could happen from not having a high enough preamp output? Less volume from the amp?
I guess my question should be do i have anything to worry about while using this amp with my current AVR?
Thanks once again, Bambino.:T

P.S. Should my owners manual of the AVR tell what the preouts put out and if so what do i look for?:dontknow:


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

bambino said:


> Do dedicated preamps have higher outputs to drive these large amps? I'm not sure what the Emotivas are rated at but my Denon 3808 didn't seem to have an issue with them. Whats the worst that could happen from not having a high enough preamp output? Less volume from the amp?
> I guess my question should be do i have anything to worry about while using this amp with my current AVR?
> Thanks once again, Bambino.:T
> 
> P.S. Should my owners manual of the AVR tell what the preouts put out and if so what do i look for?:dontknow:


Hello,
You should be fine with the 3808. The issue is about Voltage in the Pre Amp Stage. Worst case would be not being able to drive to full volume which in the case of the Cinenova is not really an issue.

Denon really makes a quality AVR. I especially like the 3808 and honestly think it will be fine.
Here is the Review to the Aragon 8008x3 that discusses low Input Impedance: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_2/aragon8008x3.html

In truth, I never even thought about Input Impedance until switching from a 5000 Dollar Pioneer VSX-49txi to an Onkyo TX-SR875. With the Onkyo, I noticed I had to raise the Gain far higher than I needed to with my Pioneer to achieve 75db's on my Mains when using my Aragon. My Parasounds have a 100 kOhm Input Impedance and need far less gain. Regardless, the Aragon still sounds fantastic I just did not understand why it needed so much gain.
Cheers,
JJ


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Thanks again jack i kinda figured thats what the issue would be. Also thanks for the link, (i gotta figure out how to post those).:T


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

Jungle Jack said:


> The Input Impedance is kinda low so some AVR's might have issues driving the inputs. My Aragon is similar in this respect, but has an even lower impedance (22 kOhms versus 27 kOhms).
> Cheers,
> JJ


See below...



bambino said:


> Do dedicated preamps have higher outputs to drive these large amps?


Not necessarily. The size in terms or power output has almost nothing to do with the amount of signal required to drive it to full power or it's _gain_. Some need 1V, some 2V and others more or less: it's a design decision for the amplifier designer.



Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> You should be fine with the 3808. The issue is about Voltage in the Pre Amp Stage. Worst case would be not being able to drive to full volume which in the case of the Cinenova is not really an issue.
> 
> Denon really makes a quality AVR. I especially like the 3808 and honestly think it will be fine.
> Here is the Review to the Aragon 8008x3 that discusses low Input Impedance: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6_2/aragon8008x3.html


.. and I'd say the reviewer here is wrong: 22k is not a low Zin, it's quite moderate for modern SS gear. Almost every AVR will use an opamp to drive the pre outs and it's been 2 decades since they all can drive 600Ω to a volt or two even the lowly 4580 which can drive 600Ω to ±12V.

A quick google on the Aragon showed it has a below average sensitivity of 1.7V for full power which is the issue rather than the Zin.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Perhaps the Reviewer is wrong. As I said, I never had an issue until switching to an Onkyo with my Aragon. From there, I looked for reasons why it needed so much more gain that it previously needed. All I know is the Review made sense and Secrets of Home Theater & High Fidelity is a very good Website and gave them the benefit of the doubt.

As I said, I do think Bambino will be fine with his Denon. I just noticed the input sensitivity is similar to my Aragon and thought I would bring it up.
Cheers,
JJ
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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