# ALM Family HT Room



## ALMFamily

Hello!

In order to make it easier to search for specific topics in the build thread, I am going to put a unique phrase at the top of each post so the search function can pick it up and allow someone to find all the posts about a certain part of the build. The phrase follows each entry below. Way too much detail I am sure but eh, if it helps one person, it is worth it. 

1. Projector discussion / decisions - ALMFamilyproj
2. Star Panels discussion / construction - ALMFamilyspanel
3. AVR discussion / decisions - ALMFamilyavr
4. Movie Poster display (poaching this idea from TKNice an example here) - ALMFamilyposter
5. Soundproofing discussion / decisions - ALMFamilysound
6. Room Construction - ALMFamilyconstr
7. Lighting - ALMFamilylights
8. Room automation - ALMFamilyauto
9. Room cooling - ALMFamilyHVAC
10. Acoustics discussion / decisions - ALMFamilyacoust
11. Carpet - color scheme - ALMFamilycarpet
12. Other AV equipment (amps, etc) - ALMFamilyothrav
13. Speaker / Sub discussion / decisions - ALMFamilyspeak
14. Video Calibration - ALMFamilyvcalib
15. Audio Calibration - ALMFamilyREW

After getting a bit of feedback on a budget, I have decided to start the build process. :clap:

Thanks for taking the time to read through all this. Any feedback / suggestions are much appreciated!

So, the room is in the basement with no windows. It is an odd-shaped room due to the breaker panel, sump pump, pressure tank and water main valve being located there, but it is roughly a 14'x21'x7.5' area. Here are a couple of pictures:



















After a bit of hand-wrangling, I decided to wall in the space visible on the right side of the 1st picture to allow for a flat wall for the screen to be located.

Here is a sketch of my preliminary floor plan:

View attachment HT room.pdf


After reading through the screen and projector forums, I decided to determine what screen size I wanted to go with first. In order to leave some room on either side of the screen for the front L/R speakers and to keep them a bit away from the wall (my initial thought is to go with towers), I settled on a 103" diagonal screen. I want to do 2 rows of seating, so the 1st row will be at roughly 10' and the second at 16'. The shape of the room should allow me to put a projection closet in the back with a projection distance of about 19'. Most of the advice I read in our forums pointed to trying to get a projector / screen build that would provide 16 Fl. After plugging all the numbers into Projector Pro, I settled on an Epson 8700UB with a 103" diagonal screen with 0.7 screen gain.

Now that I have bored everyone to tears with that novella :yikes: , I was hoping someone could poke holes in my "logic". :bigsmile: I have purchased nothing, and will probably wait until I read through everyone's opinions / feedback.

I am planning to soundproof as much as I can, so I have started putting green glue/ 5/8"drywal lin between the floor joists. I have also started banging up my false wall, but having 3 kids trying to sleep really limits that time.. :blink: I will be using whisper clips / channel and doing 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue in between.

I am thinking about going with 7.2 for a speaker arrangement, but I am wondering if 2 subs is too much for my space. If that does work,I am leaning toward the Onkyo TX-NR809 for a receiver unless someone points out a better choice.

That's about as far as I have made it to this point. Any thoughts / opinions / feedback is greatly appreciated! 

Thanks everyone!


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## bpape

Welcome to the craziness.

Your screen size should be determined by seating position. Ideally, first row would be somwhere around 13' 4" rather than 16'.

2 subs isn't a problem at all in that room.

The front speakers are still essentially corner loaded with a screen that side so you'll need to be double sure to address those corners and the wall beside the speakers with treatment up to the task of taking care of boundary interactions.

Bryan


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyacoust

Bryan,

The first row is actually at 10', not 16'. Do you think I would be better off doing a slightly smaller screen size - say around 92" diagonally? That was my original plan for screen size, but I got caught up by the "bigger is better" hype. :innocent: 

On the plus side, that would also allow me more space to move the front speakers further from the walls.

Thanks for the reply!

Joe


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## bpape

The difference won't be a lot in terms of speaker position. You're going to need to address those places anyway. With the back row farther back at 16', 92 is going to be a bit on the small side.

Be very careful with your seats though. 10' is in that 40-60% of length range where a lot of very low and hard to address modal problems from the room length are going to happen.

Bryan


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyacoust ALMFamilyconstr

Bryan,

I have read some other threads where having seating be at 38% of the room length is mentioned. Is this what you mean? 

If so, I looked at trying to configure that way, but the fact that I would like to do 2 rows seemed to throw a kink in that. Roman suggests that a riser needs to be at least 6' in width which pushed me to putting the front row seat back position to that 10' mark. If I was to push the front row closer to reach that 38%, I would be at about 8-8.5' which seems like it might be a bit too close.

As I said earlier, this is my 1st HT build so I have no preset ideas as to what might be the best way to go. That said, would putting the seats at 8.5' and 14.5-15' with a smaller screen size address the modal issue you mentioned? If so, what would your opinion be for a potential screen size? 

Thanks again for the replay Bryan!

Joe


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## bpape

In theory, 38% works very well. In reality, one normally ends up between 33 and 38% for best bass response. The 40-60% area puts you in a lot of strong modes. 

Being 8.5' from the front wall allows you to use a smaller screen to have the same included field of view. THX specs dictate a minimum of 36 degrees included angle for that field. A smaller screen has many benefits.

- Brighter picture with the same PJ
- More flexibility in where to mount the PJ
- Smaller pixel size overall
- More space to pull speakers away from the wall.
- Lower cost

Also, this would let you get the back row farther from the rear wall which gets them out of the boomy area close to a boundary as well as giving a more spacious surround field.

Bryan


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyacoust

Bryan,

First off, thanks very much for your time. Hopefully, I am not asking questions that are incredibly dense. 

Using the calcultion I found at THX's site, they suggest a seating distance of approximately 9 feet for a 92" screen. If I put the seating at that distance, that would put those seats at 41% of the room's length. Is there anything I can do to address the modal issues you spoke of without reducing the seating distance / screen size any further? Or, would those issues be negligible enough at 41% to maintain that seating distance / screen size? 

Joe


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## bpape

Just keep in mind that their recommendation is more than their minimum specification. Going from 41 to38% is only moving you approx 6". Viewing angles will still be fine.

Bryan


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyacoust ALMFamilyproj

Thanks very much for your help Bryan! 

I may have to rethink my projection room idea since the throw distance is @19' which may not work with a 
92" screen, but having better sound / visuals is definitely more important than where I put the projector.

It looks like the Epson 8350might work, but that is right at it's maximum throw range for that screen size......


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

After some suggestions from Bryan, I re-did the floor plan a bit to adjust screen size, seating distance, and placement of columns / speakers. Here is the new sketch:

View attachment HT room.pdf


Still researching if I can get a suitable projector to maintain the projector room - more to come......


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## kjgarrison

Start from something you have no control over, like the size of your room and the physics of sound that dictate the best place for your MLP, then calculate the range of viewing angles, screen height, and screen size. Then figure out the details for your PJ


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr ALMFamilyproj

Well, time for a quick update!

CONSTRUCTION:

I have been plugging away at the ceiling the last week to add drywall between the floor joists. Due to an install of tiles over linoleum in the kitchen a few years ago, there were a slew of screws poking through the OSB. I decided to put a layer of 3/8" rigid insulation up first to cover all those points and then green glue / drywall. I have about 1/3 of the ceiling done. 

I am waiting on the HVAC guy to get back to me about solutions for heating /cooling that room.

EQUIPMENT:

I have decided to go with the EPSON 8350 projector. The discussion can be found here : 

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...rs/51453-1st-projector-advice.html#post470065

I have a quick how-to question for anyone doing soffit that has a rope light tray. I was hoping someone could give a quick overview of how they are creating that tray.


Thanks!


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr ALMFamilysound

So, I have not been able to get too much accomplished over the last week - having 3 kids really cuts into work time! :rofl2:

I am not sure how much detail to provide, so for now I am going to err on the side of too much. :dumbcrazy:

I have continued to install drywall between the floor joists to create mass. As stated in the previous post, I had screws poking out of the OSB and it would have been a large undertaking to trim them flush with the OSB.










So, we decided to get some 3/8" rigid insulation and install that first to cover the screws. We used a staple gun to staple it to the OSB.



















I doubt it will provide much soundproofing if any, but at least it gave us a flat surface to adhere the drywall to. Then, it was installing the GG/drywall. Instead of using screws and potentially going through the floor the opposite way or running into the other screws, we used 1x2 furring strips cut into 2' lengths and screwed them to the joists to hold everything up. Once all the drywall is up,we will be using noise sealant on all the seams.



















This weekend's project will be to address the ductwork and air returns that run through the space. Due to the low ceiling, we are using the hanging method suggested by Ted to reduce the amount of drop for the clips / channel/ sheetrock which means we need to redo the depth of the air returns. We are also changing to flex ductwork as much as we can. Here are a couple pics of the areas:



















Here is a link to the post containing a picture of Ted's suggested hanging method(post #9):

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...-construction/51101-budgeting-ht-project.html

Sorry for the long post! :R


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyspanel

OK, I was thinking a bit down the road about installing the fiber optic starry sky effects.

I would love to be able to do this, but I am trying to determine if it is possible in my room. My ceilings are only 7.5', and I plan to soundproof the entire room. Unless I am missing something, I will need to either install the fiber optic cables through 2 layers of drywall and GG, or I will need to put up another layer of sheetrock or ceiling tiles which I just cannot do due to the lack of height.

Any suggestions or alternative ideas? :help:


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr ALMFamilyspanel

So, I was pretty much done with adding mass to the ceiling. Since we are getting rain / snow here today and I cannot work outside, I thought I would go downstairs this morning to look at HVAC ideas / solutions. Lo and behold - there is a puddle of water on my floor and water dripping from the joists. It looks like the people that put in our french doors did a poor job sealing it.........:crying::hissyfit::foottap:

The good news - I could only see one piece of drywall I will need to replace....... 

Oh, and I found a possible solution for my starry sky:

http://www.iskypanels.com/

Checking pricing, but has anyone looked at these before and has an opinion?


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## raZorTT

Hey Joe

Great to see you have started a build thread :T

Be glad you have discovered the leak before getting to far into construction when it could have cost a lot more to remedy!

I'm sure you probably saw in my thread how I did a light tray? I build the tray out of ash, stained it and then attached it to a piece of MDF. That MDF is also the side of my soffit. It all went up as one piece so there wouldn't be any visible screw holes

Do you know how you are going to build the soffits? If you were going to cover the bottom in something like GOM you could get away with screwing light trays prior to putting the covering up?

Cheers
Simon


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## raZorTT

Those panels look pretty impressive! 

If you are worried about losing ceiling height, have you thought about a painted star ceiling? A woman on the DTV forum in Australia did an amazing job painting over a piece of black fabric and then using LED strip around the edges to crate a brilliant star ceiling. 

Let me know if you want me to copy in a link!

Cheers
Simon


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr ALMFamilyHVAC ALMFamilyspanel

Very true Simon - I was glad it happened now. :bigsmile:

I actually have it all fixed so I am back on the HT trail! I spent some time last night replacing the one drywall piece and then started sealing. John Hile (Great guy - I highly recommend SoundProofing company) sent me a slew of information on ensuring a nice tight space.

Thanks for the info on the light tray - I actually went back and reviewed again how you did yours since I made that post to get a better idea of how to manage the tray. Again, nicely done! :T

I have looked into a painted ceiling tray - but I really like the look of a fiber optic ceiling so I am holding that as a last resort. I am thinking those panels would be perfect for my space since they can be adhered right to the drywall without having to drop them and make a support system, but I just wanted to see if anyone else had gone that route and had an opinion on how they looked. I will probably just go ahead and contact them and see if they can send me a sample so I can provide a review of them for others. However, if you do have a link, that would be great just in case that's the route I go. Thanks!! :clap:

As far as the soffits go, I am still unsure how I am going to manage them. I would really like to do recessed lighting all along the soffit. There is one side though that has water pipes and duct running along it. After taking a look through the info John sent me, it looks like it is a bad idea (from a soundproofing standpoint) to put recessed lighting in a soffit that has not be decoupled from the wall/ceiling but instead employs the decoupling on the outside of the soffit. I am going to chat with John some more to see what his opinions / ideas are. I actually looked at it this morning wondering if I should have a plumber come out and move the pipes to go through the floor joists so I could drywall the entire room and then build the soffit. :rolleyesno: I will more than likely not do GOM on the soffits - I am thinking I will just do the tray / painted drywall and then a board along the top edge of the wall stained the same as the tray which would be part of the wall assembly to hold the acoustical panels in - I think this is what you did if I recall correctly.

On the plus side, the HVAC guy suggested that doing a ductless mini split would probably be my best option. He also suggested having a infrared heater (that just plugs into the wall) to be there when the temperature drops below 15 degrees F since mini splits are non-efficient below that temp - it gets cold here in Wisconsin! At least that means no more ducts. :boxer:

Oh, and thanks for all the help with the automation - I feel a lot more comfortable with that now. :T

Joe


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## raZorTT

The end pics are here. If you go back a page or two you'll see progress photos.

Glad I could help :T

Cheers,
Simon


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## ALMFamily

Simon,

For some reason, I cannot follow back to that thread. Do you possibly have it posted elsewhere?

Thanks!

Joe


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## raZorTT

hmmm maybe you need to be logged in 

Can you see this image? http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=12316


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## ALMFamily

Nope, I cannot see that one.

I created an account but for some reason it still is erroring me off. Methinks I am unliked "down under"! :rofl:


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## Gregr

Well ALM,

So..., this is what your earlier question was all about. Well looks like fun to me. You've got some great help with Bryan offering direction and the facts.

Looks as though you've done some reading yourself. Green glue and 5/8th's rock. Pretty sophisticated stuff. 

I have to say I am glad to see Bryan step up to help you with your build. He's the man along with a hand-full of others here @ HTS who can answer the questions you didn't know you had. He even seems to understand gibberish.

I cannot speak for Bryan however he has been indispensable on other HT builds. I don't know how busy Bryan is these days but could I suggest you visit the GIK site - http://www.gikacoustics.com/. I think if you are familiar with GIK acoustic products your conversations with Bryan could be most productive. Also you need to become familiar with REW or one of the sound analyzer programs. 

This could be an opportunity for me as well. I would like to follow along as your HT develops/progresses. I remember an HT moderator asked that you post your Starry-Night creation and build process. Well I guess I'm hoping you think out-loud and in writing as your HT build progresses.

I am not asking that you track and write about every thought you have, but if you have a question or an idea I hope you present these in your posts. 

Thanks :yikes::T


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## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Well ALM,
> 
> So..., this is what your earlier question was all about. Well looks like fun to me. You've got some great help with Bryan offering direction and the facts.
> 
> Looks as though you've done some reading yourself. Green glue and 5/8th's rock. Pretty sophisticated stuff.
> 
> I have to say I am glad to see Bryan step up to help you with your build. He's the man along with a hand-full of others here @ HTS who can answer the questions you didn't know you had. He even seems to understand gibberish.
> 
> I cannot speak for Bryan however he has been indispensable on other HT builds. I don't know how busy Bryan is these days but could I suggest you visit the GIK site - http://www.gikacoustics.com/. I think if you are familiar with GIK acoustic products your conversations with Bryan could be most productive. Also you need to become familiar with REW or one of the sound analyzer programs.
> 
> This could be an opportunity for me as well. I would like to follow along as your HT develops/progresses. I remember an HT moderator asked that you post your Starry-Night creation and build process. Well I guess I'm hoping you think out-loud and in writing as your HT build progresses.
> 
> I am not asking that you track and write about every thought you have, but if you have a question or an idea I hope you present these in your posts.
> 
> Thanks :yikes::T


Greg

You are so right - so many people have been very helpful and I have not even started framing yet! :clap:

I tracked back to Soundproofing Company's website to learn about soundproofing my space which definitely helped - Ted and John have both been very patient with my newbie questions. I think I will soon be considered a Knight of Knubbery if I keep it up! :dumbcrazy:

Bryan has been incredibly helpful - speaker placements, accoustical pitfalls, etc. He even answered a dopey question about color scheme! :R I have checked out GIK's site for accoustical panel colors already and will probably be back looking at bass traps before too long.  I have not decided yet whether I will build them myself or purchase though.

Early on, I was worried about going overboard with details about my build. Thanks to your reply, I am no longer as worried about that - definitely appreciate knowing that I am not being a total dork by saying what I am doing every step of the way. :R

Construction Update coming soon!

Joe


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## ALMFamily

Since I have a hard time reading through a long post, I thought I would make an effort to create shorter posts so I plan to break up the posts to cover a few different areas I am working on now. Also, in order to make it easier to search for specific topics in the build thread, I am going to put a unique phrase at the top of each post so the search function can pick it up and allow someone to find all the posts about a certain part of the build. The phrase follows each entry below. I will be updating the 1st post to put this info right up front and update the list as I go. Again, way too much detail I am sure but eh, if it helps one person, it is worth it.  

1. Projector discussion / decisions - ALMFamilyproj
2. Star Panels discussion / construction - ALMFamilyspanel
3. AVR discussion / decisions - ALMFamilyavr
4. Movie Poster display (poaching this idea from TKNice :bigsmile: an example here) - ALMFamilyposter 
5. Soundproofing discussion / decisions - ALMFamilysound
6. Room Construction - ALMFamilyconstr
7. Lighting - ALMFamilylights
8. Room automation - ALMFamilyauto

As always, any feedback / opinions / "Joe, way too much info" ribbing is appreciated. :gulp:


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyproj

My original plan was to put the projector in the AV closet with the rest of the equipment in the back of the room and cut a "projection hole" through so that I could isolate all the equipment and the potential noise /distraction. The closet would be about 19' from the screen. My original thought for a projector was the Epson 8350.

After quite a bit of discussion and feedback from some wonderful people, I have decided to scrap putting the projector in that room and will instead mount it in the room over the 2nd row of seating (at about 15').

I have decided to get the Panasonic AE7000 - the entire projector discussion can be found here.

Joe


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

The noiseproof sealing for the drywall installed in between the ceiling joists is all done! :clap:

I currently have a water pressure tank and main water shut off valve located in one corner of the room. My original plan was to frame it in and build a removeable soundproof box to cover it. After talking with my neighbor about the room, he said "why don't you just move the tank and pipes" - I of course stood there staring at him for a second and said "I never thought of that". :dumbcrazy: He actually has a friend who is a plumber that will do the work fairly cheap. Moving that whole mess will make that corner much cleaner and allow me to place a bass trap in that corner (I originally did not think I could get one in there).

My task for tonight (hopefully!) is to address the air return duct that hangs below the joists in that same corner. 

Corner Air Return

Joe


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyauto

After looking through quite a few build threads here and elsewhere, I decided to go with a similar set-up to what Simon (raZorTT) has done - Lutron Grafik Eye QS, Global Cache 12, and run by iRule.

After many Q&A messages with Simon (thanks again! :T), I decided on the QS since it has an IR connection built in so it can be wired to the GC-12 via an IR port. The iRule app has a list of all components that it recognizes (pretty extensive) and they actually sell the GC-12 - for more details on the app, read here.

I contacted DimnDimmer.com about the QS - they quoted me 765 dollars for a standard color model (black faceplate, gray stripe, black buttons).

I was just wondering if anyone else is using a Grafik Eye and, if so, where / what price you got.

Thanks!

Joe


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyspanel

OK, so now on to star panels! :dumbcrazy: I wanted to provide my thought process and the options I looked at for those that may be exploring options for a starry sky ceiling.

So, to start from the beggining - when I started contemplating this whole project, I wanted to do fiber optic star panels - I really liked how Sandman's ceiling looked - even more when I saw Fitz's and raZorTT's.

After thinking about my ceiling height - it is 7.5' - I was worried about putting up anything that would detract from that height. So, I started googling for other options.

The first one I looked at was actually painting a starry sky on the ceiling. Now, I am definitely not the artistic type so I would have been looking at having this done. I looked at Starscapes, but was just uncomfortable with it. I then decided that this would be my last resort - I would either try to muck through it myself or ask one of my artistic friends to give it a go.

So, back to the panels drawing board. I found another place called iSKY that made fiber optic panels which actually are anchored right onto your drywall - this seemed like the perfect solution. Unfortunately,they appear to be out of business as the phone had been disconnected. :dontknow:

So, I was back to Google. I found a vendor that sells pre-made fiber optic panels here. They said they could be surface mounted. But, when I called to see if I could get a sample, they said I would need to buy a panel - that I could not return. The panels are over $100 for a 2'x2' panel (and $25 s/h) so I would need to spend $150 just to see if it would work. Plus, my area is 8'x12' which would put my cost for that ceiling close to 2 grand. 

As part of my build, I am already planning for soffits (have one side with duct work and water pipes). After looking closely at the pre-made panels, it appears they do not need to be dropped more than 1.5-2" below the finished ceiling. 

So, I have decided to build my own panels. Here are the materials and the cost:

3 - 1/2"x4'x8' sheets of MDF - $72
30' of crushed panne velvet to cover the panels - $60 -purchased from Joann fabrics - black
Spray acrylic glue and tacky glue -$12
Countersink bit -$3
Fiber optic kit purchased here (where Sandman purchased his DIY kit) - this kit worked for me since my square footage is 96 - $472

Total cost to date -$625

I will provide details and pics as I build them

Joe


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## Gregr

Joe,

Sounds like you've been able to consolidate your mechanical's, e.g. HVAC, plumbing, elec., etc along one wall which means only one soffit is required. It might have looked interesting with two or even a coffered ceiling with 3 or 4 soffitted sections of equal distance around the room with rope lighting (LED) laid in behind a nice Crown molding. Earlier you referenced a site with Starry-Nite ceiling examples and nearly all had coffered ceilings.

Siffits are pretty easy to create. I'll give you a brief description. If you need more input just ask:

Using !/2" (min. thickness) cut to the height of your drop ceiling/soffit needs. With 2" x 2" nailed to the ceiling framing (floor joists) you can attach the plywood to the 2" x 2" nailer. With a chalk line and/or just string you should be able to put everything in place well enough that it looks good to the naked eye. Where the plywood butt together (end to end) I would later finish with a paint-able latex caulk, putty knife and fingers until it is reasonably smooth. it will disappear behind the bright lighting in any case. Before attaching the crown molding I would attach at least one narrow (1 x 3 or 1 x 4) piece of pine running the full length of your soffit. The bottom of this pine strip can be/is the finished edge of the actual soffit ceiling and will attach to the plywood drop panel for a nice finished soffit corner. You can attach a second 1"x 3" pine with a molded edge (or not) creating a pleasing shadow line and attach your crown molding to that. Drop in a length of LED rope lighting of any type of lighting and lighting color etc, etc, etc. 

Don't forget to have some fun.


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## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Joe,
> 
> Sounds like you've been able to consolidate your mechanical's, e.g. HVAC, plumbing, elec., etc along one wall which means only one soffit is required. It might have looked interesting with two or even a coffered ceiling with 3 or 4 soffitted sections of equal distance around the room with rope lighting (LED) laid in behind a nice Crown molding. Earlier you referenced a site with Starry-Nite ceiling examples and nearly all had coffered ceilings.
> 
> Siffits are pretty easy to create. I'll give you a brief description. If you need more input just ask:
> 
> Using !/2" (min. thickness) cut to the height of your drop ceiling/soffit needs. With 2" x 2" nailed to the ceiling framing (floor joists) you can attach the plywood to the 2" x 2" nailer. With a chalk line and/or just string you should be able to put everything in place well enough that it looks good to the naked eye. Where the plywood butt together (end to end) I would later finish with a paint-able latex caulk, putty knife and fingers until it is reasonably smooth. it will disappear behind the bright lighting in any case. Before attaching the crown molding I would attach at least one narrow (1 x 3 or 1 x 4) piece of pine running the full length of your soffit. The bottom of this pine strip can be/is the finished edge of the actual soffit ceiling and will attach to the plywood drop panel for a nice finished soffit corner. You can attach a second 1"x 3" pine with a molded edge (or not) creating a pleasing shadow line and attach your crown molding to that. Drop in a length of LED rope lighting of any type of lighting and lighting color etc, etc, etc.
> 
> Don't forget to have some fun.


Thanks for checking out my thread Greg! 

You are right - those coffered ceiling rooms look amazing. I considered it early on, but after looking at a couple build threads here and Sandman's on the other site, I really liked the soffit / recessed lighting look they created.

Thanks a bunch for the detail - that definitely helps! :T I will post if I run into issues as I am building them.

I just wish my wife would not get that blank look on her face when I get all excited talking about the room :rant: - would definitely make it more fun!


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Well, it took me a little longer than I thought to get the air return taken care of - I figured as long as I was doing it, I might as well drywall / GG / seal between the joists inside the ducts as well.

Here is the finished product:

air return #1
Air return #2
air return #3

In order to pull air through the joists, I drilled a few 2" holes (think conduit holes) through the joist making sure to space them out and keep them away from the bottom so as to not significantly weaken the joist. I also used foam insulation and sealant to close up spaces /gaps - ironically, it pulls air a lot better now than it ever did before.

Oh, and the kicker - framing starts TOMORROW!! :clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilycarpet

In an effort to try to get my wife a little more enthused about the room, I took her to go look at carpet and let her pick out a few that she liked.

So, here are the 3 "finalists". 

The first is called Black Magic Swirl - the gray is a little darker than the picture shows 

The second is called Black Magic errrrrr Curlique or something like that -the gray is the same as #1

No idea what the third is called - Option 3

Personally, I am not loving the third one - but my wife likes it so it is on the list. :heehee:

Let me know what you think.

Joe


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## raZorTT

nice work!

I think I like the 3rd option :devil: for carpet, probably cause i think it would be the darker of the 3.

Are you going to do the framing? Or do you have someone coming in?

Cheers,
Simon


----------



## ALMFamily

raZorTT said:


> nice work!
> 
> I think I like the 3rd option :devil: for carpet, probably cause i think it would be the darker of the 3.
> 
> Are you going to do the framing? Or do you have someone coming in?
> 
> Cheers,
> Simon


I got a great price for someone to come in and do it - he is the same guy that installed our new windows last year and did a stellar job. I figured for the price he quote me (I was the opposite of sticker shocked :claphaving him do it would save me a few weeks of picking away at it. :bigsmile:

Actually, now that I looked at the pictures of the carpet closer, the pictures of the 1st 2 really lightened it - the gray is really more of a light black IRL.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyauto

Well, I bit the bullet, pulled the string, (many more expressions inserted here :R) and ordered my Lutron Grafik Eye QS 6p from Dim-n-Dimmer. I got the standard black faceplate, gray stripe and black button model. Total cost is $765. I will post pics once it arrives.

I don't know about anyone else, but even after all the research, asking questions of others, etc., I always get nervous actually paying for things while getting that "did I look at everything / could I have paid less" feeling...... :gulp:

Joe


----------



## raZorTT

ALMFamily said:


> ALMFamilyautomation
> 
> Well, I bit the bullet, pulled the string, (many more expressions inserted here :R) and ordered my Lutron Grafik Eye QS 6p from Dim-n-Dimmer. I got the standard black faceplate, gray stripe and black button model. Total cost is $765. I will post pics once it arrives.
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but even after all the research, asking questions of others, etc., I always get nervous actually paying for things while getting that "did I look at everything / could I have paid less" feeling...... :gulp:
> 
> Joe


Excellent :T I'm all for DIY, but there are definitely times where paying for someone else to do things makes sense! Especially when your time can be put to better use, like building a star ceiling for instance 

LOL I always get the exact same feeling. I find it's worse with HT stuff as well because it quit often sits around for a few month and you will inevitably see it cheaper 

Cheers,
Simon


----------



## JBrax

ALMFamily said:


> ALMFamilycarpet
> 
> In an effort to try to get my wife a little more enthused about the room, I took her to go look at carpet and let her pick out a few that she liked.
> 
> So, here are the 3 "finalists".
> 
> The first is called Black Magic Swirl - the gray is a little darker than the picture shows
> 
> The second is called Black Magic errrrrr Curlique or something like that -the gray is the same as #1
> 
> No idea what the third is called - Option 3
> 
> Personally, I am not loving the third one - but my wife likes it so it is on the list. :heehee:
> 
> Let me know what you think.
> 
> Joe


My vote is option 1. Simple and clean looking.


----------



## ALMFamily

JBrax said:


> My vote is option 1. Simple and clean looking.



Thanks J - that's where I am leaning as well..........


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Just a quick update - the pressure tank and main shut off valve has been successfully moved. While they were here, I also had them reroute some water pipes to make enclosing the ductwork and pipes easier inside the soffit on one side of the room.

Framing to be finished tomorrow with pics!


----------



## raZorTT

wow that was quick! looking forward to some pics!


----------



## ALMFamily

raZorTT said:


> wow that was quick! looking forward to some pics!


I know! I called him back to give him the go ahead and he said "can we come tomorrow?" I did one of these :rubeyes: and said you betcha!! Thank goodness for cold Wisconsin fall days - they were supposed to be doing a roof but it was going to be @20 degrees F with the wind chill. Brrrrrrrrr.......


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyspanel

The star ceiling kit came in the mail today! :clap::clap:

It is not much to look at, but here is a picture of it anyway - star ceiling kit

Time to start building some panels! :boxer:


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

The framing was finished today! :clap:

This one is looking at the entrance door - entrance

This one is looking in the entrance toward the screen wall - Screen Wall

The next two are looking at where the AV closet will be and the back corner (the stool is sitting in the closet):

AV 1
AV 2

The last two are looking at the soffit that encloses the ductwork and water pipes:

Soffit 1 
Soffit 2

That soffit will be completely enclosed. Our current plan is to extend a false soffit from that one once it is drywalled that will contain the recessed lighting on that side of the room.

Time to start running wires - anyone have any "you might want to" suggestions for wiring? 

Joe


----------



## Sonnie

Hi Joe... looks like things are coming along very well for you.

One think I might mention is the 7.x setup, speaker placement, etc. I found the 7.x setup with the surrounds being on the sides between the front and rear row of seating to not be such a good setup for rear seat listeners. When sitting on the back row, I could hear the surrounds before I heard the fronts and it was strange/weird, whatever you wanna label it. I ended up having to move my side surrounds to the back corners... which with my first room was slightly rear of the back row, since my back row was nearly against the back wall. I end up going back to 5.x instead of 7.x. I am not sure in your case if you could place them to the side and slightly rear of the back row... or how you might work that out, but I would research it. There may be some discussion on it here that I have not seen. :huh:


----------



## ALMFamily

Sonnie said:


> Hi Joe... looks like things are coming along very well for you.
> 
> One think I might mention is the 7.x setup, speaker placement, etc. I found the 7.x setup with the surrounds being on the sides between the front and rear row of seating to not be such a good setup for rear seat listeners. When sitting on the back row, I could hear the surrounds before I heard the fronts and it was strange/weird, whatever you wanna label it. I ended up having to move my side surrounds to the back corners... which with my first room was slightly rear of the back row, since my back row was nearly against the back wall. I end up going back to 5.x instead of 7.x. I am not sure in your case if you could place them to the side and slightly rear of the back row... or how you might work that out, but I would research it. There may be some discussion on it here that I have not seen. :huh:


Thanks Sonnie - I will definitely take a look to see what I can find / do......


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks Sonnie - I will definitely take a look to see what I can find / do......


Based on Sonnie's input, I decided to put in 2 locations for the side surrounds - one behind each row. I figured this would give me the flexibility later to move the side surrounds behind the 2nd row or to add a second set of speakers which would serve as rear presence speakers.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Not much on the construction front since my last post due to 2 kids' birthdays and Turkey Day. The holiday season can put such a cramp on HT projects! :crying:

I have "sketched" out on the floor the locations of seating, stage / riser, columns and the cabinets / countertop (in pencil of course!) to get a visual idea of where things will be placed. 

I placed my order with Monoprice for speaker wire and HDMI cables (and assorted wall plates, plugs,etc). I am hoping to have it in hand by the weekend so I can start wiring in speaker locations and the projector location. I have already purchased the conduit for the speaker locations (1" conduit to run to the screen area for the fronts, center, and subs - 1/2" for the other locations) as well as all the single gang boxes and extensions (doing DD).

I decided to do the speaker locations before electrical figuring that I had some leniency with speaker wire that I won't have for electrical so I could figure out what will work / won't work.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyposter

Since this is my 1st post on this subject, I will provide a little background. I spent a few months before I started my room just looking at other build threads and pictures of finished rooms to get ideas for what I wanted to do.

One of the ideas that really jumped out at me was in TKNice's build thread on another forum. Instead of purchasing posters and hanging those in his HT, he instead vertically mounted a 42" TV to display posters and other images. In the long run, I thought this would actually save money on poster purchases as well as make a really neat room effect. He saved all the posters to his media center computer and is running a slideshow from there. One of the other posters had an idea of using the USB port / slideshow function on the TV itself. This is what I decided to pursue.

So, I started out by going to this site and downloading a few of the posters I would like. I then rotated them to vertical display and saved them to an external hard drive. I found a great guy at WalMart that let me plug into a TV to see if it would work. After some trial and error and a couple more trips (the same guy was there fortunately), I got them to display as I had hoped - it works perfectly. And, the color on the posters are much more vivid than I could ever hope to have from a poster itself. The trick is to resize the poster (I just used the stretch function in Paint) to be as close to 1920x1080 as possible. 

So, since I find so little time during the week to get anything done in the HT (kids are such light sleepers! :nono, I spent most of the last couple of weeks downloading and resizing posters. For other events, I also have some sports pictures and space pictures (both courtesy of TK). I now have over 600 posters I can display.

Currently, I am in the market for a 40" or 42" LED/plasma/LCD TV (those are closest to normal poster size) that has the ability to slideshow pics. I was hoping to find a good Black Friday deal, but all the really good deals did not have a USB port that could be used (was just a service port). As soon as I get a TV to display these, I will post pictures.

My current plan is to mount the TV on the right wall as you walk in the door and cable the external hard drive back into the AV closet.


----------



## raZorTT

Hey Joe,

Coming along very nicely!

The real world is always trying to get in the way of HT progress  I think most of us here have unrealistic expectations of just how long it will take to get things done . I know I thought it would take me 6 months max to get the HT up and running. 3 years later I was finally enjoying the fruits of my labour 

Keep up the good work!

Cheers,
Simon


----------



## raZorTT

Hey Joe,

I think the vertical mounted plasma is a great idea :T

If I ever build another house, HT 2.0 will have some sort of entrance with a couple plasmas displaying posters and the like.

Cheers,
Simon


----------



## ALMFamily

raZorTT said:


> Hey Joe,
> 
> Coming along very nicely!
> 
> The real world is always trying to get in the way of HT progress  I think most of us here have unrealistic expectations of just how long it will take to get things done . I know I thought it would take me 6 months max to get the HT up and running. 3 years later I was finally enjoying the fruits of my labour
> 
> Keep up the good work!
> 
> Cheers,
> Simon


Thanks Simon!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyavr ALMFamilyothrav

Christmas came early this year! My wife thinks I am nuts, but here are some pics I took: :coocoo:

Onkyo 809 front
Onkyo 809 back
Onkyo 809 cover open
Onkyo 809 remote

Emotiva XPA-5 front
Emotiva XPA-5 back


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyproj

More Christmas!! :coocoo::coocoo:

Panny 7000 front
Panny 7000 top
Panny 7000 back


----------



## raZorTT

ALMFamily said:


> ALMFamilyproj
> 
> More Christmas!! :coocoo::coocoo:
> 
> Panny 7000 front
> Panny 7000 top
> Panny 7000 back


dangerous buying a project so soon into your build! :rofl2: Don't "test" it out cause you'll never finish! :nono:


----------



## bpape

You got that right!


----------



## ALMFamily

True - for me though, I thought having that sitting right in front of me was a great kick in the seat of the pants every day to get to work... addle:

Did I ever tell you guys I am a stay at home dad? I get a couple hours every day when my toddler is napping to work on it! :T That projector is just what I need to make sure I don't nap too!! lddude:


----------



## ALMFamily

Alright, time for a total noob question. :R

I am running cable, wire, etc. and I am not sure if I should be running speaker wire for the subs since there is only one connector. I thought I would be able to run speaker wire and then use a 4 speaker connection wall plate to connect the front,center, and the 2 subs but now I am not sure that is the right way to set those up.

Help! :sad:

Joe


----------



## bpape

For a typical powered sub, you'll need a 110v outlet and a single coax cable most likely with an RCA end for the low level sub signal. Some subs take XLR or Speakon connectors but those aren't as common.

If you want to future proof for the option of a passive sub with the amplifier in the rack, run another speaker wire. It's cheap and easier than doing it later.

Bryan


----------



## ALMFamily

bpape said:


> For a typical powered sub, you'll need a 110v outlet and a single coax cable most likely with an RCA end for the low level sub signal. Some subs take XLR or Speakon connectors but those aren't as common.
> 
> If you want to future proof for the option of a passive sub with the amplifier in the rack, run another speaker wire. It's cheap and easier than doing it later.
> 
> Bryan


Thanks Bryan - is there a good place to get RCA connectors and bulk coax cable? I looked at Monoprice, but they only seem to sell the cable in specific sizes with the connectors already fastened.

So, while I was composing this message, I continued to read and search. Are most people getting keystone jacks and building their own specialized wall plates to accomodate sub, speaker, HDMI, etc. connections?


----------



## Sonnie

You can get all of those parts, cables, connectors and such at Parts Express. :T


----------



## kadijk

Parts Express works, however some of that can be expensive to ship. I got just about all my stuff at Home Depot. Their electrical department here might as well be a wholesale shop...the have almost everything. Banana plugs are hard to find cheap...I found Nakamichi(who knew) ones on ebay for around .50 a pair("gold" plated with dual set screws to boot)


----------



## Sonnie

Yeah... tax and gas might be about the same as shipping. :huh:


----------



## NegativeEntropy

*Re: ALM Family HT Room - sub cable for in conduit*

I took the route of a monoprice pre-made RCA cable, but my equipment will all be in my utility room on a rack, so 5' of wound up cable is not an eyesore in my setup.


----------



## bpape

You can do the keystone thing if you want certainly. Wiring your own HDMI's can be very tricky to get a good connection though.

If you go to Blue Jeans Cable, just tell them what you want and they'll make it up any length. Very cost effective and well made cables. If you try to DIY the RCA cable, honestly, you'll spend more on the tools to do it than you'd save by DIY'ing unless you just want to have the tools around long term. I make up a lot of cables so for me, it's worth it.

Bryan


----------



## kadijk

True. True. But I have the " luxury" of living about 10 min drive from home depot and a couple other stores like it, and drive past it everyday on my way to work...I didn't mean to undermine your suggestion Sonnie. I forget how lucky I am here, in Lethbridge where we have everything a big city has but it's all within a 15 min drive.


----------



## bpape

Like I said, if you want to have the tools, sure, go for it. HD has the raw cable and snap seal type RCA connections which will be just fine for a subwoofer.

Bryan


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyacoust

Thanks a lot guys - appreciate the feedback. I actually live about 10 minutes from a HD as well so I will give them a go. It will probably be worthwhile to get the tools since I have a feeling I may be making a lot of cabling in my future as well. :bigsmile:

After reading through another thread, I think I will be taking your suggestion Bryan and wiring in a few locations for the subs which actually leads me to another question. You said in a different thread that recent research pointed toward having one sub in front and one in back being a better set-up than both in front.

My question is - would this be directly in front of the seating and directly behind it, or would it be feasible to have them positioned in opposite corners of the room? I realize this probably is going to be largely dependent on the acoustics of the specific room,but I am trying to map some good locations for the sub jacks and wanted to check to see if it made sense to put one in the corners.

Thanks again everyone for the feedback!

Joe


----------



## bpape

The research showed 1 dead center front wall and 1 dead center rear wall was beneficial. Or, they can be done centered on the left and right walls. The only time corners were shown to be a good idea was when you had 4 subs - 1 in each corner. Diagonal corners are going to maximally excite that long diagonal ringing.


----------



## ALMFamily

bpape said:


> The research showed 1 dead center front wall and 1 dead center rear wall was beneficial. Or, they can be done centered on the left and right walls. The only time corners were shown to be a good idea was when you had 4 subs - 1 in each corner. Diagonal corners are going to maximally excite that long diagonal ringing.


OK - thanks Bryan!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

So, a quick end of the week update! 

I spent the week drilling holes to install conduit for speaker / sub wires, a front of the room network connection, and a hard-wired IR connection from the QS to the GC-12. Still have a way to go and then it will be on to electrical.


----------



## igl007

Nice job! Having just gone through all of these steps, it's a little surreal reading your posts  Like this long obsessive dream. :spend:


----------



## ALMFamily

igl007 said:


> Nice job! Having just gone through all of these steps, it's a little surreal reading your posts  Like this long obsessive dream. :spend:


Thanks! And thanks for following my thread - been keeping up with yours too. More pics!! :rofl:


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

So, for those that have been following along, you probably know I am planning on building an AV closet to house all my equipment. To make this work, I need to find a way to cool that room without compromising the soundproofing.

The closet sits it the back of the room and shares a wall with an adjoining room. I had originally planned to put a passive air return vent and fan on this wall to push the warmer air into that area, but that compromises the soundproofing.

I searched to see if anyone had run into the same issue but did not find anything. I was wondering if anyone else has heard of / run into a similar issue and what the solution was.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Joe


----------



## ALMFamily

Well, no updates on construction but the Christmas bugaboo bit again and I am quite stoked!

Since they never really get outmoded , I took my wife out to try out some seats and she found one that she likes - the Palliser Pepper series. We were able to find them at our local American TV which is running their employee pricing promo. 

After about 1.5 hours of "talking" with the salesman, I was able to get them for $2100 for a straight set of 3 in the Romo Ember color (Leather Match 1000). The best price I had been able to find up to that point for those seats was 3k.

8-12 weeks for delivery - my wife has already said we are setting those bad boys up in the living room until the room downstairs is done! I better get cracking....... :foottap:


----------



## raZorTT

nice work! Got any pics of them?


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyothrav

Not yet - won't be delivered for a 2-3 months which works for me since I have a ways to go before I will need them. Here is a link to them though!

Peppers

Simon - are you using some version of Buttkickers for your seating? If so, what do you think of them?


----------



## raZorTT

They look brilliant!

No I haven't got any buttkickers in my seating. I would love to try them out though :R


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyothrav

I think I will wire in some RCA jacks on the riser so I can put those on my potential "upgradeitis" list once I am all said and done. They seem like a really neat effect - maybe we will get someone that has them to chime in and give us a review! :T


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Quick question - I know that you should not run electrical wires in parallel with other wires to reduce the chances of signal degradation. Does this apply to other different wires as well?

For example, could you run a cat6 wire and an RCA wire (for a sub) in the same conduit without fear of degradation?

Thanks in advance!

Joe


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Joe,

Soundproofing and wiring closet: Do you leave your furnace fan running all the time? If so, that's an easy source of vacuum - hook up a return duct to the top of the wiring closet with a vent at the bottom to allow room air in.

Regardless of the solution, you could set up a tunnel with a series of sound absorbing baffles in the exhaust path (ASCII art attempt):



Code:


______________________
                    |           |
<---air out    |     |     |      <--air in
                    |     |     |
_____________|_________

Basically a rough muffler so the sound will need to bounce off of several absorbers before entering another room. Hopefully this will attenuate things nicely.

Wiring: Low voltage wiring will generally not interfere with other low voltage wiring. Coaxial cable (i.e. RCA) is especially immune to this and twisted pair is excellent at common mode rejection too (CAT5/5e/6). 

In short, don't worry about bundling home theater low voltage wiring together. If you had some odd 48V low voltage application it might be another story, but that's not the case here.

Where low voltage and high voltage (120 VAC) need to cross, do so at right angles (90 degrees to each other). I found crossing low and high voltage unavoidable in my family room conduit runs - you just do the best you can.


----------



## ALMFamily

NegativeEntropy said:


> Joe,
> 
> Soundproofing and wiring closet: Do you leave your furnace fan running all the time? If so, that's an easy source of vacuum - hook up a return duct to the top of the wiring closet with a vent at the bottom to allow room air in.
> 
> Regardless of the solution, you could set up a tunnel with a series of sound absorbing baffles in the exhaust path (ASCII art attempt):
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> ______________________
> |           |
> <---air out    |     |     |      <--air in
> |     |     |
> _____________|_________
> 
> Basically a rough muffler so the sound will need to bounce off of several absorbers before entering another room. Hopefully this will attenuate things nicely.
> 
> Wiring: Low voltage wiring will generally not interfere with other low voltage wiring. Coaxial cable (i.e. RCA) is especially immune to this and twisted pair is excellent at common mode rejection too (CAT5/5e/6).
> 
> In short, don't worry about bundling home theater low voltage wiring together. If you had some odd 48V low voltage application it might be another story, but that's not the case here.
> 
> Where low voltage and high voltage (120 VAC) need to cross, do so at right angles (90 degrees to each other). I found crossing low and high voltage unavoidable in my family room conduit runs - you just do the best you can.


ALMFamilyconstr

Thanks for the reply Ryan!

Unfortunately, I do not have the furnace fan always running - otherwise that would be a good solution. I had considered venting into the return duct that is in the joist right next to the closet, but I am not sure what the effect would be when the fan is not on. I think I will try to apply the baffle idea - what would you suggest using for the baffle material? 

That's good news on the wiring - really cuts down on the amount of conduit I need to run! :T

Joe


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

After doing a bit of reading this morning, I am thinking that the best material to use for the sound absorbing baffles is OC 703. Would that be correct? If so, can 4" 703 be compressed to 3.5" so that it could fit in a standard wall?

Sorry, I have never seen /worked with 703 before so I am unsure of it's applications / properties.

Thanks!

Joe


----------



## kadijk

I'm not sure about the use of 703 "in" the wall behind drywall. My impression is you want something like "safe and sound" or normal insulation in the walls and use 703 or rht 40 as first reflection panels. Post the question in the home theater acoustics forum area...there are experts there who will know for sure


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Joe,

I would recommend something that absorbs a broad frequency of sounds that is backed by something impermeable to sound (like foil) or attached to a hardboard or similar. That way some of the sounds are reflected back and some are absorbed. By the time sound makes its way to the end of this "muffler" (after multiple reflections) it should be much quieter.

I was thinking of something like a 12" square duct with 3-5 of these baffles in it. Since leveraging the furnace fan is out, I'd try to find a 120VAC fan that is thermostat controlled (or triggered by a relay via the 12V out on your receiver?) to force air through the duct (probably size the duct to the fan). You could also line the duct with whatever sound absorbing material you use for the baffles.

How much heat will your equipment be putting out? It would be good to measure actual consumption at the wall, then size the fan(s) appropriately. technically one should spec out the fan (in terms of cfm at least), then size the duct accordingly for low flow velocity (to minimize the pressure drop).

To be clear, I've never built such a device, but it seems like it would work. There may be off the shelf solutions as well.

It might be most prudent to cut the ventilation hole, then verify the transmitted noise is objectionable, then, only when you know it's necessary, build/buy the muffler duct.

I'm not up on sound absorbing materials, so I'm afraid I'm no help there.

--Ryan


----------



## ALMFamily

kadijk said:


> I'm not sure about the use of 703 "in" the wall behind drywall. My impression is you want something like "safe and sound" or normal insulation in the walls and use 703 or rht 40 as first reflection panels. Post the question in the home theater acoustics forum area...there are experts there who will know for sure


ALMFamilyconstr

Thanks K - now that you mention it, I do remember reading that Roxul is generally used "in" wall applications.


----------



## ALMFamily

NegativeEntropy said:


> Joe,
> 
> I would recommend something that absorbs a broad frequency of sounds that is backed by something impermeable to sound (like foil) or attached to a hardboard or similar. That way some of the sounds are reflected back and some are absorbed. By the time sound makes its way to the end of this "muffler" (after multiple reflections) it should be much quieter.
> 
> I was thinking of something like a 12" square duct with 3-5 of these baffles in it. Since leveraging the furnace fan is out, I'd try to find a 120VAC fan that is thermostat controlled (or triggered by a relay via the 12V out on your receiver?) to force air through the duct (probably size the duct to the fan). You could also line the duct with whatever sound absorbing material you use for the baffles.
> 
> How much heat will your equipment be putting out? It would be good to measure actual consumption at the wall, then size the fan(s) appropriately. technically one should spec out the fan (in terms of cfm at least), then size the duct accordingly for low flow velocity (to minimize the pressure drop).
> 
> To be clear, I've never built such a device, but it seems like it would work. There may be off the shelf solutions as well.
> 
> It might be most prudent to cut the ventilation hole, then verify the transmitted noise is objectionable, then, only when you know it's necessary, build/buy the muffler duct.
> 
> I'm not up on sound absorbing materials, so I'm afraid I'm no help there.
> 
> --Ryan


ALMFamilyconstr

To be honest, I am not sure how much heat I will end up with - this is my 1st (and probably last -they will haul my corpse out of this house one day :rofl2. I am just trying to make sure I plan wiring for every possible outcome so I do not have to rip out DD / GG to fix something I should have thought of now. I found a site somewhere that has a calculation to determine the appropriate size fan -just have to remember where I saw it. lddude:

Good call on the fan - I am planning on going with some form of bathroom fan with a thermostat control. On the plus side,the adjoining room in completely unfinished so I can have access to do whatever is necessary to soundproof and build the muffler duct as needed.

Thanks Ryan!

Joe


----------



## Gregr

All right I just have to throw in one thought I have @4:19am I have had since the utility room was created/discussion started. the idea would be "Heat exchanger". I know the heat exchanger itself can be quiet small (relatively so) I am not sure of ducting requirements for best use. You could have a great source of heat in the winter months. Drawing fresh air in extracting heat or cold and exhausting stale air. 

As far as the 703???? If the design dimension is 4" you are defeating the design parameters by stuffing 4" of material into 3.5" space. If for example you use 4" of fiberglass insulation to fill a 3.5" space you will have defeated the design plan. Whereby you have decreased the tiny dead air space provided for in the design and by compressing the material you are actually filling the miniscule dead air spaces with solid material thereby negating the design and reducing the effectiveness of its insulating value and/or noise cancellation effects as in the 703 material?


----------



## bpape

It's really more the thickness rather than the density. Although, at thinner panel thicknesses, there is some benefit to a higher density. As you get thicker, it's less important.

Seriously, in the wall, just use fluffy wall insulation. All you're looking to do is fill and damp the cavity. OUTSIDE the wall where it's exposed to direct air waves to be absorbed, then we look at other things.

You'd have a hard time compressing 703. Even if you did, you're essentially then recoupling the 2 sides of drywall and potentially making physical transmission worse.

Bryan


----------



## ALMFamily

bpape said:


> It's really more the thickness rather than the density. Although, at thinner panel thicknesses, there is some benefit to a higher density. As you get thicker, it's less important.
> 
> Seriously, in the wall, just use fluffy wall insulation. All you're looking to do is fill and damp the cavity. OUTSIDE the wall where it's exposed to direct air waves to be absorbed, then we look at other things.
> 
> You'd have a hard time compressing 703. Even if you did, you're essentially then recoupling the 2 sides of drywall and potentially making physical transmission worse.
> 
> Bryan


ALMFamilyconstr

What I am looking for is something to use in a potential "muffler duct" as Ryan suggested above. Won't fluffy lack the rigidity need to create the baffles? I could tack it to something more rigid I suppose - I just did not know if there was something that would be more applicable.......

I do plan to use pink fluffy in all other walls - well, yellow in my area..... 

Joe


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> All right I just have to throw in one thought I have @4:19am I have had since the utility room was created/discussion started. the idea would be "Heat exchanger". I know the heat exchanger itself can be quiet small (relatively so) I am not sure of ducting requirements for best use. You could have a great source of heat in the winter months. Drawing fresh air in extracting heat or cold and exhausting stale air.
> 
> As far as the 703???? If the design dimension is 4" you are defeating the design parameters by stuffing 4" of material into 3.5" space. If for example you use 4" of fiberglass insulation to fill a 3.5" space you will have defeated the design plan. Whereby you have decreased the tiny dead air space provided for in the design and by compressing the material you are actually filling the miniscule dead air spaces with solid material thereby negating the design and reducing the effectiveness of its insulating value and/or noise cancellation effects as in the 703 material?


ALMFamilyconstr

Heat exchanger - intriguing. Thanks! I will look to see what I can find.....


----------



## bpape

My mistake - sorry - missed the context.

There is a product called 'duct board' that is specifically for use in a duct. It has a very very thin coating on the fiberglass to provide a smoother surface for better air flow and to prevent the dust in the air from hanging up on the fiberglass particles.

If you're going to do a really effective baffle, and want it to also help with lower frequencies, you'll need mass at the 'bends' that are then covered with the absorbing material.

Bryan


----------



## ALMFamily

Great - thanks Bryan!


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Just a note on the heat exchanger idea - you generally want a 10 degree difference (minimum) per heat exchanger to have effective heat transfer.

So, for example, if you set up a radiator in the wiring closet (source of heat) and plumbed it to another radiator in a room that could accept the waste heat (sink for waste heat), the wiring closet would need to get about 30 degrees warmer than the heat sink room to get effective heat transfer.

e.g. 100 degree air in heat source makes 90 degree water in the heat exchanger and the 70 degree air in the heat sink room drops the water to 80 degrees.

As with the fan, you'd need to size the radiators, pump and radiator fans appropriate to the heat load. I suggest testing your equipment on a Kill-a-watt or similar to get actual power usage under actual listening conditions. Add in the power the pump uses (get it from the specs) as that heats the water too. The fan's heat contribution can likely be neglected. Just adding up the max (e.g. nameplate power - 120V and 6A on the receiver for example) will be massive overkill.

The advantage is that the holes in the wall for the radiator hoses could be sealed to prevent noise transmission. Plus you'd likely have the only "water cooled" wiring closet in the area - talk about exclusive:bigsmile:!

This concept is used in things as small as computer cases these days, so it's not outlandish - just make sure the equipment in the wiring closet can handle ~110 degree air or so before going this route. It might be difficult to make it look...professional. Depending on the fans required, it could be loud (same with the duct idea actually - though if you can use a low dB bathroom fan, that will make a duct approach significantly easier). Fans for use with radiators are often louder as the radiators typically present a higher pressure drop than something like a duct, so the fans need a higher static pressure rating (this varies by radiator design obviously).


----------



## ALMFamily

NegativeEntropy said:


> Just a note on the heat exchanger idea - you generally want a 10 degree difference (minimum) per heat exchanger to have effective heat transfer.
> 
> So, for example, if you set up a radiator in the wiring closet (source of heat) and plumbed it to another radiator in a room that could accept the waste heat (sink for waste heat), the wiring closet would need to get about 30 degrees warmer than the heat sink room to get effective heat transfer.
> 
> e.g. 100 degree air in heat source makes 90 degree water in the heat exchanger and the 70 degree air in the heat sink room drops the water to 80 degrees.
> 
> As with the fan, you'd need to size the radiators, pump and radiator fans appropriate to the heat load. I suggest testing your equipment on a Kill-a-watt or similar to get actual power usage under actual listening conditions. Add in the power the pump uses (get it from the specs) as that heats the water too. The fan's heat contribution can likely be neglected. Just adding up the max (e.g. nameplate power - 120V and 6A on the receiver for example) will be massive overkill.
> 
> The advantage is that the holes in the wall for the radiator hoses could be sealed to prevent noise transmission. Plus you'd likely have the only "water cooled" wiring closet in the area - talk about exclusive:bigsmile:!
> 
> This concept is used in things as small as computer cases these days, so it's not outlandish - just make sure the equipment in the wiring closet can handle ~110 degree air or so before going this route. It might be difficult to make it look...professional. Depending on the fans required, it could be loud (same with the duct idea actually - though if you can use a low dB bathroom fan, that will make a duct approach significantly easier). Fans for use with radiators are often louder as the radiators typically present a higher pressure drop than something like a duct, so the fans need a higher static pressure rating (this varies by radiator design obviously).


There are times Ryan where I read your posts and am just in awe of the depth of your knowledge on various subjects....... :rubeyes: thanks for all the info!


----------



## NegativeEntropy

I like to know how things work - that has lead to my education and career as a mechanical engineer and I try to keep up on all things science. So, (as, I suspect, with most people that educate themselves continually) I have better than average knowledge in some specific areas, and I'm woefully ignorant in others . I try to only offer advice in areas I think I am adequately qualified (part of the reason for the low post count).


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Well, it has been a few days since my last update. Unfortunately, with Xmas and all, it has been slow going. :sad:

I probably should have posted this in post #1, but here goes anyway: I am by no stretch of the imagination what you would consider handy. Oh sure, I can hang a few pictures, lay tile and hardwood floors, etc - but the thought of doing most of this work myself at first was quite scary. Then, I look at other build threads and it is easy to become quite intimidated by some of the beautiful work you see people doing. So, if you are following along with this thread, know that if I can do it, anyone can do it - just be willing to do a bit of research and a little trial and error as you go along. Oh, and take advantage of this forum - so many people are more than willing to answer questions without making you feel like a complete dolt. 

I have been able to get all the conduit / locations put in place for the 7.2 sound set-up. While I was at it, I also future proofed for 11.4 and tactile transducers should I ever decide to go that route. All sub locations will be wired for passive or powered. It is probably overkill, but it is just extra wire and conduit, right? :bigsmile: 

While looking through a couple other build threads, I came across one that did backlighting for their columns instead of sconces and I really liked the look of it. Plus, no lights for me to bop my head on! :T (I am 6'4") So, I decided to wire outlets behinds all the columns as well as where the front bass traps are (currently planning super chunks) to allow for backlighting using rope lights. I have also finished running all the electrical for wall outlets, screen wash, recessed soffit lights, AV closet, riser lighting, star ceiling and light tray. 

Here are some up-to-date pics:

In these pics you can see all the conduit for the L/C/R speakers, subs, and transducers.

Right side of room by entrance
Right side of room by screen wall

Screen Wall

Back Wall

Left side wall by back wall
Left side wall by electrical/sump pump closet

Here is a shot into the really busy electrical closet:

Electrical Closet

My current plan for electrical lines that have more than one line - for example,there are 2 separate lines for backlights - is to wire them to terminal strips (which will be located in their own box) and then run just one line from there to the Grafik Eye to control the backlights as one zone (spliced in with a line from the main panel). This will be done for all multiple lines. Please holler if you see any issues with this.

So, up next is to build a custom box for all the speaker / sub lines going to the screen wall to allow me to land all the conduit in that one box and then go to their separate face plates.

Sorry for the long post - maybe I got more done than I thought! :bigsmile:

Joe


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyacoust

I have a growing concern that the sound quality in the room is going to be sub par due to the fact the seating is tucked to the side of the room away from the sump pump / electrical closet and that the left to right build of the room is dissimilar.

Here is a more current layout:

View attachment HT room.pdf


Am I worrying too much or am I going to have some major sound issues to deal with?

Thanks!

Joe


----------



## kadijk

Looking real good Joe. I remember that stage of my build...did I run enough cable?are the speaker locations going to work?what about the subs?ahhhh!! And then in the end I get towers for surrounds, and decide to biamp my mains...so on my hands and knees I was, tucking speaker wire under the baseboard and fishing it up to cover plate locations. It's pretty hard to pre plan every variable imaginable. And in the end...it's a theater. What a luxury. You'll love it(if it doesn't drive you nuts). 
As far as acoustics go, I'm not sure. Every room needs a little help. I've been using mine for 3 months now and I'm just starting to notice characteristics that are consistent. So some treatment will be in order. My initial thought is that your left side will have a delayed first reflection, and that might change how you treat the right. Others know better though.


----------



## ALMFamily

kadijk said:


> Looking real good Joe. I remember that stage of my build...did I run enough cable?are the speaker locations going to work?what about the subs?ahhhh!! And then in the end I get towers for surrounds, and decide to biamp my mains...so on my hands and knees I was, tucking speaker wire under the baseboard and fishing it up to cover plate locations. It's pretty hard to pre plan every variable imaginable. And in the end...it's a theater. What a luxury. You'll love it(if it doesn't drive you nuts).
> As far as acoustics go, I'm not sure. Every room needs a little help. I've been using mine for 3 months now and I'm just starting to notice characteristics that are consistent. So some treatment will be in order. My initial thought is that your left side will have a delayed first reflection, and that might change how you treat the right. Others know better though.


Thanks K - excellent point - I need to keep reminding myself that I will have an in-home movie theater when this is all said and done. :T

Mayhaps I should PM Bryan and see what he thinks.........


----------



## kadijk

Yup. I'd ask Bryan. Your layout drawing will be helpful for initial analysis.


----------



## Gregr

Joe,

WOW, very nicely done! For somebody with experience in flooring only..., I would think you possess the skills of a seasoned carpenter, esp after looking at this build progress. I am a 30+year veteran of building construct and finishing and this build has taught you many fundamentals skills research and communication are at the top of my short list. You've done a great job with framing (your room looks air tight).

I believe you have done a great job with future-proofing your theater. However if you have doubts ..., "run string". If you have a metal snake you can buy cheap braided or twisted string through the conduit. It is helpful to mark the ends of each string using duct tape (of course)..., string "A" marked at both ends string "B" etc. Run as many as will fit if you believe you need that many. Actually, if you ever run new wire you can pull a new string with it so all you need is one length of string in each run and you will be future proofed indefinitely. 

As with anything, hind sight offers the best view. So, with clear hind sight I can tell you this..., your electrical door is facing in exactly the wrong direction. Even if you were to use an insulated steel or solid core door with triple bottom sweepers sound will migrate through that minimal thickness door and directly out into the room. I suggest you turn the corner with the door. In this case noise that reaches the theater room proper will need to make several reflections before reaching the audience. Just as important..., the sump will be further from the door and you will now be able to build a small tight enclosure around the sump pump. 

I am suggesting you build a small insulated enclosure around the sump area. Even if you have only a few inches between the wall and the opening in the concrete floor where your sump is located the framing and insulation for the sump enclosure must be built independent of walls. The separation from any wall and/or sump mechanics can be minimal but these cannot touch. Be sure to seal the box at the floor and....., use screws to assemble the framing to allow for dis-assembly later for pump replacement. Also run a short length of old garden hose out of the enclosure in case of heavy spring run off of water..., you may need air to displace the water being pumped from around the foundation. 

Also do not be concerned with pump overheating. Don't forget to insulate the elec room wall..., I know you are but I just had to say that and this..., Experience dictates.

You are doing great. You should know now, with a little common sense and willingness to do the leg work and the grunt work you can do very nicely. You may even find a passion for this sort of thing.


I believe this will


----------



## Gregr

Joe,
I just looked at the floor plan again. Your door placement may be in the better location as far as speaker placement. For sound containment it may make little difference. But, for building an enclosure for the sump, I believe the enclosure (though 12" high is ample) will be a thorn in your side each time you need to get into your elec. room. 

I hope I have not been too..., ???

Thanks for keeping us informed


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Joe,
> 
> WOW, very nicely done! For somebody with experience in flooring only..., I would think you possess the skills of a seasoned carpenter, esp after looking at this build progress. I am a 30+year veteran of building construct and finishing and this build has taught you many fundamentals skills research and communication are at the top of my short list. You've done a great job with framing (your room looks air tight).
> 
> I believe you have done a great job with future-proofing your theater. However if you have doubts ..., "run string". If you have a metal snake you can buy cheap braided or twisted string through the conduit. It is helpful to mark the ends of each string using duct tape (of course)..., string "A" marked at both ends string "B" etc. Run as many as will fit if you believe you need that many. Actually, if you ever run new wire you can pull a new string with it so all you need is one length of string in each run and you will be future proofed indefinitely.
> 
> As with anything, hind sight offers the best view. So, with clear hind sight I can tell you this..., your electrical door is facing in exactly the wrong direction. Even if you were to use an insulated steel or solid core door with triple bottom sweepers sound will migrate through that minimal thickness door and directly out into the room. I suggest you turn the corner with the door. In this case noise that reaches the theater room proper will need to make several reflections before reaching the audience. Just as important..., the sump will be further from the door and you will now be able to build a small tight enclosure around the sump pump.
> 
> I am suggesting you build a small insulated enclosure around the sump area. Even if you have only a few inches between the wall and the opening in the concrete floor where your sump is located the framing and insulation for the sump enclosure must be built independent of walls. The separation from any wall and/or sump mechanics can be minimal but these cannot touch. Be sure to seal the box at the floor and....., use screws to assemble the framing to allow for dis-assembly later for pump replacement. Also run a short length of old garden hose out of the enclosure in case of heavy spring run off of water..., you may need air to displace the water being pumped from around the foundation.
> 
> Also do not be concerned with pump overheating. Don't forget to insulate the elec room wall..., I know you are but I just had to say that and this..., Experience dictates.
> 
> You are doing great. You should know now, with a little common sense and willingness to do the leg work and the grunt work you can do very nicely. You may even find a passion for this sort of thing.
> 
> 
> I believe this will


Thanks for following my thread Greg! I must admit - I can't take credit for most of the stud work - I got a great price for someone to do it for me. :R Plus, they did it in 1.5 days. :clap: I guess I also figured that a good room starts with square walls, and I was uncomfortable having my 1st go at wall work be in a room where the floor joists, concrete walls, and floor are not all square (I was somewhat surprised TBH). 

I love the string idea - definitely going to add that - thanks!

Thanks for the heads upon the insulation - I think I am actually going to finish the inside of that closet as well- one more layer of drywall certainly can't hurt. :bigsmile:

I will admit - it has been a lot of fun so far. I have actually already started to think about building a sub or two after the room is done. :T



Gregr said:


> Joe,
> I just looked at the floor plan again. Your door placement may be in the better location as far as speaker placement. For sound containment it may make little difference. But, for building an enclosure for the sump, I believe the enclosure (though 12" high is ample) will be a thorn in your side each time you need to get into your elec. room.
> 
> I hope I have not been too..., ???
> 
> Thanks for keeping us informed


Not at all -I can't tell you how long that corner and how I would do it bugged me. I thought about just framing the sump off as you said, but I was worried about the angles I would create. Also, the main panel is on the other wall from the sump so I would have needed to maintain easy access to it as well. My thought to try and limit that door's sound containment issues are to make it shorter ( just tall enough for me to squat into) and perhaps cover the face of it with 703 FRK / cloth. As long as I can stand inside the closet and access the main panel, I figure I should be good. I am open to any other suggestions as well.

Thanks again for following along and the suggestions! Keep em coming! :bigsmile:

Joe


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Well, it has been a while since my last post - I think Xmas was created to halt HT progress! :rofl2:

I have finished all the speaker conduit that I am going to run. I wanted to make sure I had thought everything through before I went ahead and glued it all up. Well, no more changing now! :bigsmile: I also used foam insulation to fill in around all the conduit in the conduit holes - it is not moving anywhere. Since gluing conduit and spraying foam is boring, I did not snap any pics. However, here is a pic of the DIY box that allowed me to land all the conduit for the screen wall speakers /subs in one place. My plan is to land 5 speaker lines, 2 passive sub lines and 2 powered sub lines here.

I also finished framing up the soffit in the back of the room that will enclose the air return that stretches almost the full width of the room. I just have a bit of sanding of the edge to do to make it a nice smooth corner.

Soffit view 1
Soffit view 2

As you can see in the 2nd pic, I took some 3/4 plywood I had laying around the house and sealed around the return. The thinking (and it may be overthinking) was that adding an extra layer would provide additional soundproofing as that return comes from the living room. I will be extending the false soffit off this and the side wall soffit to allow for recessed lighting.

Next up, I am going to rough up the box that will allow me to place the projector inside the soffit so I can configure where I will be running conduit for the HDMI, network, and serial cable for the projector as well as the outlets for the projector, light tray, and star ceiling.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyspeak ALMFamilyothrav

Besides doing some boring construction work, :bigsmile: I also made a couple additional equipment purchases! :clap:

After a month or so of research, I had narrowed down my list of potential subs to SVS and Velodyne. I decided to buy used for my 1st 2 subs and save most of my speaker budget for, well, the speakers. :blink: For the last few weeks, I have been poring over a few different forums to see what was being sold. After reviewing these for a while, I started to get a sense that there were quite a few Velodynes for sale. However, there were very few SVS subs for sale and when there were any, they were usually sold rather quickly. This led me to deciding on SVS as my 1st choice. I searched rather far and wide from the Wisconsin area, and I was able to find a listing for a couple PB-13 Ultras that were for sale by the original owner and are still under warranty. My brother and I decided to road trip for 16 hours (in one day :yikes, but it was well worth it. 

So, without further ado, here are my "new" subs!

Grilles on
Grilles off

I also have been looking at surge protection/ signal filtration. After much reading, it seems there are varying opinions on the worthiness of investing any money here. So, for me it came down to peace of mind. If I could get something relatively inexpensive, I would go ahead and do it. Luckily, I was able to find a Monster HP2500 surge protector on Craigslist for a LOT less than what BB gets - there is no way I would pay $500 for this. It just amazes me that Monster is able to sell anything considering how significantly overpriced they are. A couple of pics for those interested: 

Front side
Back side

This will be in the AV closet - I am looking at Furmans for the subs and projector. If anyone has any other suggestions for those, please let me know.

Oh, and here are my Xmas presents from the wife and kids!

Present 1!
Present 2!

Interesting how they picked something they get to use too........:rofl2:


----------



## Gregr

Hi Joe,

Joe I see that your framing is lacking an important component. It is important to support the sheet-rock ends. Nailing blocks support the sheet-rock where walls meet ceiling or sofit returns. 

I've been following your work and you sound very competent so I had a sense you would get to it in your own time. Now it is easier to put these nailing blocks in place before you insulate And you look ready to insulate. 

These nailing blocks go between each wall stud where the wall meets the ceiling. Also, where the ceiling meets the wall but in this situation it is possible to run a 2x4 the full length of at least one sofit that I saw in one of your photo's. Also, like speaker boxes, anywhere you plan to hang/mount lights, cabinets, sound diffusion/dampening material may benefit you to include nailing blocks to make it easier to find something substantial to fasten these to.

I hope I am not late in speaking up.

Lookin' Good :T


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Not too late at all! Thanks again for the feedback!

Since I am planning to do whisper clips / hat channel, it seems like I would not need nailing blocks as I would be fastening the clips to studs / joists and then hanging the sheet rock on the hat channel. Am I missing something here or does this sound right? :scratch:

Definitely going to employ that for lights and such - thanks!

Joe


----------



## Gregr

Well again, your way ahead of me with new tech for home theaters. Looks like you are not missing anything but I am. However, pay close attention to inside and outside corners..., these area's of walls where people may bump into for many reasons. An old carpenters' adage, "If it can be broken..., it will." Some of the new tech still needs a little common sense in order to survive the practical world.

I am learning so much. Thanks


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Since the flu decided to infest my house and leave no living soul untouched, I figured I would use the time to learn Sketch-Up and see if I couldn't put a picture to my thoughts.

This is what I came up with after a couple restarts. Unfortunately, it is way too big to upload directly. :R
A couple notes:

- the colors are not accurate for the carpeting and upper walls
- the soffits and star ceiling are not depicted

Putting all this together led me to a question - I currently have the side surrounds set inside the middle columns on the walls. Due to the layout of the room, the seats will be closer to the right surround. Once I run Audessey (I have the Onkyo 809), will it build in a delay or will I need to configure that myself?


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Saved the Sketch-up as a Jpeg - hopefully this is a bit easier to view.


----------



## sga2

Audyssey will configure delay and adjust volume trim levels accordingly for your #1 measurement (main listening position).


----------



## ALMFamily

sga2 said:


> Audyssey will configure delay and adjust volume trim levels accordingly for your #1 measurement (main listening position).


Awesome - that is what I thought from some of the posts I had read butI was not completely sure. Thanks!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

I finished constructing a rough soffit enclosure where the projector will sit inside of and hung it to get an idea of where I will run the electrical for the light tray, star ceiling, and the projector itself as well as the conduit for the HDMI cable(s), network line, and serial cable (connecting the projector to the GC-100). 

Side view
Front view

My current plan is to run the Romex through 2" conduit (just to pass through the DD/GG), fill it with foam, and then wrap the ends with a putty pad. The conduit for the cabling I just plan to put caps on.

Next up, I will be finishing up the romex lines and conduit lines for that projector area.

I also need to get an electrician and HVAC guy in here (had bad luck so far with people not returning calls, etc) to get lines set up for the ductless mini split as well as hooking lines to the panel. I have some concerns with the electrical too - see next post.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr ALMFamilyothrav

I have a couple electrical questions as to what others have done:

1. I am running 2 PB-13 Ultras which will be plugged into 2 separate outlets (but on the same romex line). Will it be necessary to run these on their own breaker? I seem to recall reading a thread where someone was having a problem with his breaker popping when the subs kicked in.

2. I plan on doing one dedicated breaker (20A) for the AV closet. Will one be sufficient? Currently, the equipment to be located there will be the AVR, BD player, cable DVR, GC-100, projector, XPA-5 amp, modem, router/network switch, and a Monster HD2500. There will also be a fan / thermostat to move air out of that room. In the future, there will more than likely be another amp(s) as I plan to do a couple DIY sub builds once the room is "done". :rofl:

3. Would it make sense to just have the sparky install a 2nd panel that would be completely dedicated to the HT room? 

These are just off the top of my head - if anyone has any other issues they ran into, please let me know! 

Joe


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Hey Joe,

I have not been keeping up (hence the general lack of comments from me), but I may be of some help with your electrical questions (I wired most of my basement and garage a few years back, so my memory of the NEC is a bit rusty - please double check with a master electrician).

Q1) Both subs on the same line OK?
A1) Based only on the specs, the amp is rated for 1000W and the owners manual requests 1100W of available power. Treating these numbers as peak* (not steady state), you have:
15A circuit can provide ~1800W
20A circuit can provide ~2400W

So, if these will be sharing a 20A circuit with no other significant loads, it should be fine. If it's 15A or there are other loads of > 200W, then separate them onto different circuits.

Q2) How much power for the wiring closet?
A2) Run 2 at 20A. If I added up all of the likely power draws, it would still likely fit in at less than 2400W (1 circuit), but if you're already paying to run 1 line, it should cost only marginally more to run 2 at 20A to the same location (basically same labor, just extra wire - make sure you are not charged "by the circuit"). This will remove any doubt. 

Q3) Just install a 2nd panel?
A3) I would not bother for the HT room unless you are planning on much more than you've listed. I am assuming you're not looking at anything like 8 monster subs or something. 
That said, if you are getting low on open spaces in your panel, I would add a sub panel next to it when you have the electrician out.
I would also consider whole house surge protection. It should be installed in the main panel, as close to the top breaker (close to the main breaker/utility lines) as possible, and takes 2 spaces (like a 240V appliance). These are generally disposable units with an LED indicator.
Unfortunately I did not think of this for myself, and I'm down to 1 open space in my main panel and it does no (significant) good to install it in a sub panel.**

Please note that some would recommend running a dedicated line for specific equipment for "clean" power (like the projector). I'm in the camp that thinks this is a waste of resources. Local surge protection + the power supply in the electronics and proper wiring should be all that you need.

You indicated you're looking at pulling Romex through conduit. I'm not sure on the code on that, so please check into it. In my experience, if conduit is used for "high voltage" (e.g. 90V+), you should be pulling individual conductors, not Romex. I'm not sure what the "DD/GG" is, but if you're penetrating a firewall (here that would mean into the garage) with conduit, be sure to use the appropriate firestop caulk.

Browsing the rest of the page (and given the same disclaimer that my basement was done*** a while back, so I'm rusty at this), I concur with Gregr - at least where the end of the ceiling drywall is at a wall that is parallel to the ceiling joist, you need a nailer or the drywall sheet will be cantilevered the length of 1 joist gap.

Overall, it looks like excellent progress!

*Steady state loads are only allowed to be 75% of the circuit's breaker value, e.g. treat a 20A circuit as if it were a 15A for a constant load
** Unless you just want to protect the circuits in the sub panel
*** yeah, it's never really done


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Joe,

I was looking back through the thread to mid-December and I have a question.

I noticed what appear to be poured foundation walls behind some of the theater room stud walls. Am I correct? If so, presumably these are exterior walls?

If that's the case, and it were my house, I'd have those insulated with spray foam insulation. I'm pretty sure you need some kind of vapor barrier and insulation up against them (or an air gap with circulation - but that ship has sailed) or you'll be courting condensation issues and ultimately mold problems.

Perhaps I've been watching too much Holmes on Homes on HGTV, but in this climate I think it's required (this winter notwithstanding!).


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Thanks for the reply Ryan - good to see you back!  Hope all is well with you.



NegativeEntropy said:


> Hey Joe,
> 
> I have not been keeping up (hence the general lack of comments from me), but I may be of some help with your electrical questions (I wired most of my basement and garage a few years back, so my memory of the NEC is a bit rusty - please double check with a master electrician).
> 
> Q1) Both subs on the same line OK?
> A1) Based only on the specs, the amp is rated for 1000W and the owners manual requests 1100W of available power. Treating these numbers as peak* (not steady state), you have:
> 15A circuit can provide ~1800W
> 20A circuit can provide ~2400W
> 
> So, if these will be sharing a 20A circuit with no other significant loads, it should be fine. If it's 15A or there are other loads of > 200W, then separate them onto different circuits.


Perfect - this is how I wired them but I was not sure if I was being overly cautious or not.



NegativeEntropy said:


> Q2) How much power for the wiring closet?
> A2) Run 2 at 20A. If I added up all of the likely power draws, it would still likely fit in at less than 2400W (1 circuit), but if you're already paying to run 1 line, it should cost only marginally more to run 2 at 20A to the same location (basically same labor, just extra wire - make sure you are not charged "by the circuit"). This will remove any doubt.


Fortunately, I am running all the wire myself and will just have a sparky wire to the panel - my neighbor has an electrician friend who is helping me out there as I hate playing with panels. :R So, 2 20A circuits it is!



NegativeEntropy said:


> Q3) Just install a 2nd panel?
> A3) I would not bother for the HT room unless you are planning on much more than you've listed. I am assuming you're not looking at anything like 8 monster subs or something.
> That said, if you are getting low on open spaces in your panel, I would add a sub panel next to it when you have the electrician out.
> I would also consider whole house surge protection. It should be installed in the main panel, as close to the top breaker (close to the main breaker/utility lines) as possible, and takes 2 spaces (like a 240V appliance). These are generally disposable units with an LED indicator.
> Unfortunately I did not think of this for myself, and I'm down to 1 open space in my main panel and it does no (significant) good to install it in a sub panel.**


Thanks for the advice on the whole house surge protection - I will see what he would get for doing that.



NegativeEntropy said:


> Please note that some would recommend running a dedicated line for specific equipment for "clean" power (like the projector). I'm in the camp that thinks this is a waste of resources. Local surge protection + the power supply in the electronics and proper wiring should be all that you need.


I am in the same camp - if I lived out in the country I might think more about it, but I do not. :T



NegativeEntropy said:


> You indicated you're looking at pulling Romex through conduit. I'm not sure on the code on that, so please check into it. In my experience, if conduit is used for "high voltage" (e.g. 90V+), you should be pulling individual conductors, not Romex. I'm not sure what the "DD/GG" is, but if you're penetrating a firewall (here that would mean into the garage) with conduit, be sure to use the appropriate firestop caulk.


I misspoke - its not Romex - it is McLite. I was thinking rather than drilling holes to put this through my 2x Drywall / Green Glue (DD / GG) layer, I would run a small piece of conduit that I could cut around cleanly and fill it. I will double check with the sparky to make sure I am not doing a no-no. It is not into a garage - I have seen a few other posts (from you IIRC!) warning against doing this.



NegativeEntropy said:


> Browsing the rest of the page (and given the same disclaimer that my basement was done*** a while back, so I'm rusty at this), I concur with Gregr - at least where the end of the ceiling drywall is at a wall that is parallel to the ceiling joist, you need a nailer or the drywall sheet will be cantilevered the length of 1 joist gap.


OK, I am a bit muddled on this one. I will be doing clips and hat channel - do you mean that I need to make sure to put channel near that point where the ceiling drywall and wall meet to ensure it's stability?



NegativeEntropy said:


> Overall, it looks like excellent progress!
> 
> *Steady state loads are only allowed to be 75% of the circuit's breaker value, e.g. treat a 20A circuit as if it were a 15A for a constant load
> ** Unless you just want to protect the circuits in the sub panel
> *** yeah, it's never really done


Thanks much!!


----------



## ALMFamily

NegativeEntropy said:


> Joe,
> 
> I was looking back through the thread to mid-December and I have a question.
> 
> I noticed what appear to be poured foundation walls behind some of the theater room stud walls. Am I correct? If so, presumably these are exterior walls?
> 
> If that's the case, and it were my house, I'd have those insulated with spray foam insulation. I'm pretty sure you need some kind of vapor barrier and insulation up against them (or an air gap with circulation - but that ship has sailed) or you'll be courting condensation issues and ultimately mold problems.
> 
> Perhaps I've been watching too much Holmes on Homes on HGTV, but in this climate I think it's required (this winter notwithstanding!).


You are correct - there are foundation exterior walls behind the stud wall. Fortunately, there is an air gap there - there is about 1-2" between the studs and the foundation walls. I had a guy I know do the walls, and he made sure I knew they needed to do that. :bigsmile: This is what you mean, yes?


----------



## Gregr

Joe,

After a little thought about sheetrocking and in consideration of the clips with hat metal rail sound isolation system you are using, the rails install perpendicular to the floor joists. It is the rail that will extend beyond the last floor joist with the end unsupported. However, following "Critical Path Procedure" typically you will hang the ceiling Sheetrock first. Next, the first sheets of wall sheetrock should be a full length factory edge butted snugly to the ceiling sheetrock thereby providing adequate support. Be careful not to press the ceiling too hard..., you should feel resistance from the metal rails but the sheetrock is heavy and the effort required can be deceiving. Keep a close eye on your work. 

When your are doing the finish work, "measure twice to cut once" and when most everything is as near level and plumb as is practical but most of all use your eyes. As you are putting the first sheets of sheetrock on the upper walls if you see a shadow develop on the last foot of ceiling "you are pressing too hard" or you may actually see a slight curve appear in the ceiling from pushing too hard. I don't know how else to say it " keep an eye on your work. At this point it can go fast..., keep your eye on straight lines, flat surfaces, proper angles, and use glue for your wood joinery. 

Bla, Bla, Bla..., Don't forget to have some "FUN"!!! :heehee: :T


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Joe,
> 
> After a little thought about sheetrocking and in consideration of the clips with hat metal rail sound isolation system you are using, the rails install perpendicular to the floor joists. It is the rail that will extend beyond the last floor joist with the end unsupported. However, following "Critical Path Procedure" typically you will hang the ceiling Sheetrock first. Next, the first sheets of wall sheetrock should be a full length factory edge butted snugly to the ceiling sheetrock thereby providing adequate support. Be careful not to press the ceiling too hard..., you should feel resistance from the metal rails but the sheetrock is heavy and the effort required can be deceiving. Keep a close eye on your work.
> 
> When your are doing the finish work, "measure twice to cut once" and when most everything is as near level and plumb as is practical but most of all use your eyes. As you are putting the first sheets of sheetrock on the upper walls if you see a shadow develop on the last foot of ceiling "you are pressing too hard" or you may actually see a slight curve appear in the ceiling from pushing too hard. I don't know how else to say it " keep an eye on your work. At this point it can go fast..., keep your eye on straight lines, flat surfaces, proper angles, and use glue for your wood joinery.
> 
> Bla, Bla, Bla..., Don't forget to have some "FUN"!!! :heehee: :T


There we go, light bulb on! onder: Thanks for this description Greg - I now understand exactly what you and Ryan were getting at! :T


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Got a chance to spend a couple hours in the room tonight. I was able to get the 2nd line run for the AV closet as well as a dedicated line for the Infrared heater. One tool I highly recommend if you are running McLite is this.

Since I also tend to worry about what the wife will do when I am not around, I also put nail plates up. :bigsmile:

No pics tonight - pretty boring stuff......


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

After reading through more build threads the last couple days, I decided to further future proof the AV closet by running a 3rd electrical line to it. When all is said and done, the XPA-5 will pretty much have one dedicated line, the rest of the equipment will be on the 2nd, and the 3rd allows for additional amp(s) when (not if :bigsmile I choose to do a DIY subwoofer project. I also wanted to run an extra line to my future workshop area, so the 3rd line will be continued to that area as I will more than likely not be in the workshop and theater at the same time. :T

The electrician and HVAC guys were here today as well. The HVAC guy actually said I might be able to go with just an air exchanger (from Panasonic - more research inc. so I have some idea what it does :dumbcrazy instead of a ductless mini split - he was going to check with his engineer partner. The electrician is all set to go - will be back in about a week and a half after the HVAC guy has some idea of what he will suggest.

Also, one important note that just dawned on me yesterday - I was not allowing for a smoke detector that was wired into the detctors in the rest of the house. If you are reading this incredibly LOOOONG build thread, don't forget to allow for one of these in your space like I almost did. :rolleyesno:


----------



## NegativeEntropy

ALMFamily said:


> You are correct - there are foundation exterior walls behind the stud wall. Fortunately, there is an air gap there - there is about 1-2" between the studs and the foundation walls. I had a guy I know do the walls, and he made sure I knew they needed to do that. :bigsmile: This is what you mean, yes?


Yes, that's precisely what I meant. With that air gap you should be golden! (I hope so anyway - that's the design my basement walls have :bigsmile



> The HVAC guy actually said I might be able to go with just an air exchanger (from Panasonic - more research inc. so I have some idea what it does ) instead of a ductless mini split...


Pardon me if I missed this, but a ductless mini-split indicates an air conditioner. Is this for the HT room or wiring closet? I was under the impression/assumption you had a forced air furnace (and with, I assume, AC integrated) that would handle HVAC duties for the HT room itself. Could you elaborate please?

An air exchanger, as I understand it, is designed to exchange indoor air with outdoor air. Here in MN energy recovery ventilators (efficient air exchangers) are code on new houses as the houses are sealed so tight, indoor air quality can become an issue. He may mean one just for the HT room or wiring closet. If that's the case, it's basically just a fan moving air through a pair of ducts - one to the room and one back (to somewhere - presumably the furnace room?). If it's for the wiring closet, make sure he is aware of the power draw you're intending. 9X% of the electricity used will be getting turned to heat. For example, 2500W (of heat input) is 8.5k BTU/hour or ~0.7 tons of refrigeration!

If for some reason he means to exchange air with the exterior of the house (and you choose this approach), I suggest an energy recovery ventilator, not just an air exchanger.


----------



## ALMFamily

NegativeEntropy said:


> Yes, that's precisely what I meant. With that air gap you should be golden! (I hope so anyway - that's the design my basement walls have :bigsmile


Whew! :whew:



NegativeEntropy said:


> Pardon me if I missed this, but a ductless mini-split indicates an air conditioner. Is this for the HT room or wiring closet? I was under the impression/assumption you had a forced air furnace (and with, I assume, AC integrated) that would handle HVAC duties for the HT room itself. Could you elaborate please?


I had originally intended to zone off the existing furnace / central air system. However, there was just no good way to get a feed and return into the room without severly compromising soundproofing integrity. This in turn led me to look into the mini split for the room (and indirectly the AV closet).



NegativeEntropy said:


> An air exchanger, as I understand it, is designed to exchange indoor air with outdoor air. Here in MN energy recovery ventilators (efficient air exchangers) are code on new houses as the houses are sealed so tight, indoor air quality can become an issue. He may mean one just for the HT room or wiring closet. If that's the case, it's basically just a fan moving air through a pair of ducts - one to the room and one back (to somewhere - presumably the furnace room?). If it's for the wiring closet, make sure he is aware of the power draw you're intending. 9X% of the electricity used will be getting turned to heat. For example, 2500W (of heat input) is 8.5k BTU/hour or ~0.7 tons of refrigeration!
> 
> If for some reason he means to exchange air with the exterior of the house (and you choose this approach), I suggest an energy recovery ventilator, not just an air exchanger.


Per our discussion today, he did suggest moving air from outside. Based on his choice of the Panasonic, I believe he is indeed suggesting an ERV - I just finished reading about the Panasonic which does seems to have our cold climate in mind as part of the design. :bigsmile: Thanks for the heads-up - I will definitely make sure this is what he intended.


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Thanks for the clarification!

It sounds like you're looking for an HVAC solution that is completely independent of your house's HVAC. If that's the case, I do not see how an air exchanger, by itself will be adequate. It will limit you to the outside air temp (more accurately, something like the outside air temp + 10 degrees F).

This will work great in the "heating season" (outside air temp + 10 deg F > desired indoor air temp) but you can see that once the outside air temp gets above about 60-65 degrees F you will not get adequate cooling.

Therefore it seems you only have 2 choices for cooling:
1) the mini split AC system
2) ERV + mini-split so you're not running AC in winter.

As you would expect, option #2 will cost a bit more up front, but be less expensive to run. Also, please note, most residential AC systems are *not* designed to run in freezing temperatures. HVAC systems that need to run in cold outside temps actually need special heaters on some of their outside components. My statement assumes that on these split mini systems the compressor and condenser are on the outside as in a conventional air condition system (theoretically the compressor could be inside and only the condenser outside, though this is very unlikely).


----------



## kadijk

I've been following your build, and have read most if not all of the posts in it, but I'm a little confused-coming from a construction based perspective. Could you explain the reason for the special, separate HVAC system? My feeling is there is more stress than necessary, and maybe more expense too.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyHVAC

I am thinking it might be best if I describe what led me to where I am now so that you guys can poke holes in my logic.

When I first started thinking about heating and cooling the room, my intention was to create a 2nd zone from the existing system. I started looking at what it would take to do this and found - as Ryan pointed out - that most likely I would need to do something with the current cooling unit as I live in Wisconsin and the unit I have is not designed to run in the winter. Also, our house was originally built to be the spec home for this neighborhood. As such, several "corners" were cut to reduce expense (100A service, very little insulation, short basement ceilings, etc). 

The HVAC trunk system was one of those poor designs. In order to do that room as a 2nd zone, I was informed that the only real way to accomplish it would be to split off a new trunk from the existing system and run it completely separate. Doable, but pretty pricey. The other downside to that is the location of the HT room - it is on the end of the house furthest from the furnace with a bottleneck created by the configuration of the foundation walls.

That bottleneck severly limited how I could get a feed and return to that area compounded by the shorter ceiling. With the price starting to rise and the complications with the feed and return, I started looking at alternatives. The ductless mini split was one that was suggested in a different build thread so I started looking at those as an alternative.

Now, as we said before, I have to deal with the temperature extremes. So, I came up with a solution of using one of the Mr Slim units which can cool and heat the room while remaining at least 92% efficient to 5 degrees (F). The efficiency drops as it gets to -13 degrees. As part of the solution, I also installed a dedicated line for a Infrared heater that would be used in extreme cold. This is what I walked into the meeting with the HVAC guy thinking would be my end solution. He then suggested that an air exchanger may potentially work.

After reading Ryan's post and doing some research on the ERV, I am thinking that my best solution is the Mr Slim / Infrared heater combo.

Sorry for the looooong post - am I missing something here guys or does this indeed sound like the best path for me?


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Joe,

I think your decision process makes sense. All houses have various quirks that factor into decisions like these.

That Mr. Slim is a crazy efficient AC unit (SEER of 26).

At 17 deg F, it looks to be about 3 times as efficient as electric heat (650 Watts in nets 6700 BTU/hr of heat vs the 2200 BTU per hour with straight conversion via resistance heating). That's pretty sweet too.

I would still run the numbers on the Mr Slim for wintertime cooling vs the ERV. The ERV should draw less than 150 watts to run its fan, perhaps as little as half that. The heat pump will be running its compressor and 2 fans which I would expect to draw considerably more power.

One potential drawback of the ERV is that in wintertime you'll loose humidity (less than a pure air exchanger, but still some). Depending on how you handle humidification in your house, this may pose a problem for your HT room specifically (given the separate system).

An advantage of the ERV (besides less cost to run) is that you turn over the air in the room too.

So, in conclusion, I see no holes in your logic. I'd weigh the benefits/drawbacks of the various configurations, some of which I've described above, and pull the trigger and not look back.:T


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyHVAC

Ryan,

Are you suggesting a possible alternative to be the Mr Slim in combination with an ERV and the Infrared heater for extreme cold?


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Joe,

As always with something of at least modest complexity, it depends :nerd: Also keep in mind, I'm not in the HVAC business! If my ramblings lddude: are just unnecessary noise, dismiss them as such.

For example, the more I think about it, an ERV is designed to lose as little heat/cold as possible while exchanging air. If we want to use outside air for a source of cooling, a plain old "air exchanger" might be a better fit (to directly contradict what I said earlier :doh. 

Moving forward:

ERV or air exchanger related questions:
1) Would a lowering of the humidity level be a problem for the room (or the rest of the house)? If so, it's out.
2) How much cooling do you expect the room to need when the outside temperature is 50 degrees or lower? (Oct-April average temp in Madison is < 50 deg F). If it's only a few hours per day average, it's likely not worth it.
3) Does the "outside fresh air" aspect of it appeal to you?

Heating:
Madison only averages ~22 days per year with a minimum temperature below 0 degrees F. I have not found the number for -15 F (which is about where the Mr. Slim cuts out), but my guess is that it would be less than 100 hours total in an average year.

Are any of the HT room walls exterior walls with air (vs. ground) on the other side? e.g. in a walkout basement?

If not, my guess is that you will not need any supplementary heat (the Mr Slim will be enough). For those hours where the Mr. Slim is offline due to extreme cold, the rest of the house will buffer the HT room enough that it will not freeze. If it does, plug in a $20 ceramic heater (or turn your equipment on and crank it up) to take the edge off.

Overall: I'd go with the Mr. Slim and only add the ERV or air exchanger if I really wanted fresh air or it would save me money in the first 2 years (i.e. payback less than 2 years). To do the math on that, you'll need to estimate the number of running hours per year the ERV/air exchanger would keep the Mr. Slim from needing to run and use the specifications to estimate the electricity savings (if any - an air exchanger would likely need a longer duty cycle than the heat pump on those days when the outside temp was modest).

If operating costs are not a significant concern for you, I'd just go with the Mr. Slim for simplicity's sake. Less to buy/install, less to maintain and less to break! ERVs also take up a bit of space.

Not to open up more questions (he says, asking another question), but how will you be getting cooling to both the HT room itself and the equipment room? Some kind of air supply/return just between those? I forget the layout details, but I assume they are separated by a door.

I also have to add, the suggestion from a few pages back to use a set of water to air radiators for cooling just the equipment room would actually work if the exterior was used as the heat sink on cold days :bigsmile:


----------



## kadijk

Sounds like it makes sense. I might be missing something obvious, and sound dense, but I'm wondering why you want the theater on a second zone. Just trying to understand your train of thought, not question it necessarily.


----------



## raZorTT

Hi Joe,

Just got back from a trip to Europe so have been a little quiet the past few weeks.
You've Been making some great progress! Keep up the good work!

Cheers,
Simon


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyHVAC



NegativeEntropy said:


> Joe,
> 
> As always with something of at least modest complexity, it depends :nerd: Also keep in mind, I'm not in the HVAC business! If my ramblings lddude: are just unnecessary noise, dismiss them as such.
> 
> For example, the more I think about it, an ERV is designed to lose as little heat/cold as possible while exchanging air. If we want to use outside air for a source of cooling, a plain old "air exchanger" might be a better fit (to directly contradict what I said earlier :doh.
> 
> Moving forward:
> 
> ERV or air exchanger related questions:
> 1) Would a lowering of the humidity level be a problem for the room (or the rest of the house)? If so, it's out.
> 2) How much cooling do you expect the room to need when the outside temperature is 50 degrees or lower? (Oct-April average temp in Madison is < 50 deg F). If it's only a few hours per day average, it's likely not worth it.
> 3) Does the "outside fresh air" aspect of it appeal to you?
> 
> Heating:
> Madison only averages ~22 days per year with a minimum temperature below 0 degrees F. I have not found the number for -15 F (which is about where the Mr. Slim cuts out), but my guess is that it would be less than 100 hours total in an average year.
> 
> Are any of the HT room walls exterior walls with air (vs. ground) on the other side? e.g. in a walkout basement?
> 
> If not, my guess is that you will not need any supplementary heat (the Mr Slim will be enough). For those hours where the Mr. Slim is offline due to extreme cold, the rest of the house will buffer the HT room enough that it will not freeze. If it does, plug in a $20 ceramic heater (or turn your equipment on and crank it up) to take the edge off.
> 
> Overall: I'd go with the Mr. Slim and only add the ERV or air exchanger if I really wanted fresh air or it would save me money in the first 2 years (i.e. payback less than 2 years). To do the math on that, you'll need to estimate the number of running hours per year the ERV/air exchanger would keep the Mr. Slim from needing to run and use the specifications to estimate the electricity savings (if any - an air exchanger would likely need a longer duty cycle than the heat pump on those days when the outside temp was modest).
> 
> If operating costs are not a significant concern for you, I'd just go with the Mr. Slim for simplicity's sake. Less to buy/install, less to maintain and less to break! ERVs also take up a bit of space.
> 
> Not to open up more questions (he says, asking another question), but how will you be getting cooling to both the HT room itself and the equipment room? Some kind of air supply/return just between those? I forget the layout details, but I assume they are separated by a door.
> 
> I also have to add, the suggestion from a few pages back to use a set of water to air radiators for cooling just the equipment room would actually work if the exterior was used as the heat sink on cold days :bigsmile:


Operating costs really are not my biggest concern. For me, my top concerns were:

1. Maintaining good soundproofing
2. quiet operation
3. Room comfort

There are no exposed walls, so that room holds temp extremely well. This is why I am thinking the ERV might actually be a good solution as I really do not need much in the way of heating / cooling - just something to take the edge off either way. Plus, it looks like the ERV is a cheaper initial cost as well. :T

My idea for cooling the closet was to trim the door up a bit higher to allow air to be drawn in from the HT room and install the fan we talked about to pull air from the closet and blow it out into the adjoining room. If I get sound leakage from that fan, I will build some sort of "dead vent" with reflective baffles which I think we talked about already.



kadijk said:


> Sounds like it makes sense. I might be missing something obvious, and sound dense, but I'm wondering why you want the theater on a second zone. Just trying to understand your train of thought, not question it necessarily.


The main reason for the second zone idea was that the basement is as much as 10 degrees cooler that the main level. If the main level is calling for cooling, the lower level more than likely needs none and it could get cold in there. Not a problem for me, but my wife does not like to be chilly. :bigsmile:

Also, the rest of the house has no need for cooling in the winter months - the HT actually might and the current air unit is not rated to run during the winter.



raZorTT said:


> Hi Joe,
> 
> Just got back from a trip to Europe so have been a little quiet the past few weeks.
> You've Been making some great progress! Keep up the good work!
> 
> Cheers,
> Simon


Thanks Simon - glad to have you back!! :T


----------



## kadijk

Understood. The summer cooling issue is logical, but I would think that simply closing vents in the theater would prevent "over cooling"? Maybe not. Here in southern Alberta, we really only have a month of weather where air conditioning would be nice- so I can't justify it and a cool basement is a nice retreat from the heat. In winter, even with all the theater equipment on and running, the theater stays cooler than the other rooms, and so a pile of blankets has taken up residence there and is used regularly. I would be very surprised if you had to actively cool your room in winter...


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyHVAC



kadijk said:


> Understood. The summer cooling issue is logical, but I would think that simply closing vents in the theater would prevent "over cooling"? Maybe not. Here in southern Alberta, we really only have a month of weather where air conditioning would be nice- so I can't justify it and a cool basement is a nice retreat from the heat. In winter, even with all the theater equipment on and running, the theater stays cooler than the other rooms, and so a pile of blankets has taken up residence there and is used regularly. I would be very surprised if you had to actively cool your room in winter...


You are correct, I could have just closed the vents to prevent that from happening. The situation I forgot to mention was if everyone was in that room and it called for cooling - to prevent air from going to the rest of the house, I would need to close all those vents. Since air takes the path of least resistance, I could not be sure the room would be sufficiently cooled otherwise. Also, tying into the existing system also opens me up to tranferring sound from the HT room to those other parts of the house tied to that trunk. In truth, this was my biggest concern of all due to the WAF factor.

TBH - I am theorizing (1st HT and I have no clue :bigsmile that with the projector as the only piece of AV equipment to be in the room it should maintain a comfortable temp without any service needed. It is once I close the door (with its soundproof track) with 5 people inside for a couple hours that I start to worry about the temp as well as the temp inside the AV closet.

Do you have service into your room at all Kadijk? If so, does the AC ever come on?


----------



## kadijk

We have no air conditioning at all in the house, so for one month a year it's warm upstairs, but never in the basement. What I actually do is turn on the furnace fan and let it simply circulate the air in the house, mixing cool basement air with warm upper air and it's usually enough. In winter, the basement is cooler, even though it's heavily insulated( I guess heat rises). So I have one heat vent in the theater, fed by the main house system, and we are comfortable in there even after a movie with 5 or 6 of us watching. The sound transfer that we experience through the duct is minimal, although I didn't ever set out to actually "sound proof" the room. Seemed unachievable. In my build you'll see 5/8 fireguard drywall, green glue, roxul safe and sound, and eventually solid core doors(haven't got to that yet). I would say the vast majority of my sound leakage is through the open doorways, and negligible through ceilings walls and the duct(not to mention that part of my main hvac trunk runs above the theater in the ceiling). All that to say, for me, separate hvac wasn't even on my radar or worth the expense. That being said, if I built another house, and planned a theater, I would "try" to avoid a main duct in that part of the ceiling-providing I don't sacrifice hvac performance and crank the cost. Remember my personal motto for HT...best possible performance for least possible cost(everything has to have some balance). Sorry for being long winded.


----------



## ALMFamily

kadijk said:


> We have no air conditioning at all in the house, so for one month a year it's warm upstairs, but never in the basement. What I actually do is turn on the furnace fan and let it simply circulate the air in the house, mixing cool basement air with warm upper air and it's usually enough. In winter, the basement is cooler, even though it's heavily insulated( I guess heat rises). So I have one heat vent in the theater, fed by the main house system, and we are comfortable in there even after a movie with 5 or 6 of us watching. The sound transfer that we experience through the duct is minimal, although I didn't ever set out to actually "sound proof" the room. Seemed unachievable. In my build you'll see 5/8 fireguard drywall, green glue, roxul safe and sound, and eventually solid core doors(haven't got to that yet). I would say the vast majority of my sound leakage is through the open doorways, and negligible through ceilings walls and the duct(not to mention that part of my main hvac trunk runs above the theater in the ceiling). All that to say, for me, separate hvac wasn't even on my radar or worth the expense. That being said, if I built another house, and planned a theater, I would "try" to avoid a main duct in that part of the ceiling-providing I don't sacrifice hvac performance and crank the cost. Remember my personal motto for HT...best possible performance for least possible cost(everything has to have some balance). Sorry for being long winded.


LOL - that is not long-winded at all! You should see some of the rambling novellas I have in this thread. :bigsmile: 

Really, my biggest concern is trying to decouple this room as much as possible from the rest of the house from a sound standpoint. I can't even swing a hammer downstairs after the kids' bedtime w/o getting admonished to "keep it down". So, I think what you are saying is pretty much where I am at as far as building a new house / planning a theater - I do not want to run any more HVAC trunks through that room than I already have to to feed the rest of the house. Given our current "state", this will probably be my one and only chance to build a HT room, and, if I don't plan for some way to heat / cool the room, I just feel that it will come back to bite me later.

If I can do a separate system for a reasonable price, I am thinking this will be my best solution. Of course, time will tell.... :gulp:


----------



## kadijk

Agreed. Each situation is unique. My youngest is 11 and sometimes it's him killing aliens keeping me up...so my sound proofing or lack of it is my own fault. At least it's fun! Keep enjoying the project-it's looking good


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## ALMFamily

Thanks a mil Kadijk - having you and Ryan to bounce this off of has been incredibly helpful.


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## NegativeEntropy

Joe,

Do you have a room in your house that's similar enough so you could simulate the expected heat load and see how it goes?

If memory serves, you have most of your HT equipment; with a Kill-a-Watt or similar, you could get actual likely power draw then set up a heater to simulate it in a similar room, let it run for 2 hours and check the temp.

An adult human at rest is equivalent to a heater of about 100 watts.

Just a thought.

Also, for venting the HT closet, remember that you'll need make up air from somewhere if you're exhausting out of the closet. The immediate source is the HT room itself, but if that's sealed up tight, you'll add a fair static pressure on the exhaust fan, reducing its flow.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyHVAC

Ryan,

That is a great idea! I will give that a go today.

As far as venting that room, I wonder if I would not just be better off cooling that room internally. The only way to allow for air flow would be to cut a vent to the adjoining room allowing me to pull air from there. That would introduce 2 spots where sound could escape.

Thinking out loud, I could cut the vent low in the AV closet, use the space between the studs as a "return", and cut the vent a bit higher on the outer wall so I do not have a direct path for sound to escape. I could even put some reflective baffling inside (small amount so as to not reduce the air flow dramatically) to further damp that run. Then, as we talked about before, I can determine after the fan is installed and the room is up and running whether or not I need to create some kind of baffle box for it. 

Thoughts?


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyHVAC

I performed the test you suggested above Ryan. The heater I had available was an infrared heater that was set to 800W and ran it for 2 hours with the door closed. The room was on the main level, so I closed all the vents in the room as well.

When I walked in after 2 hours, I did not notice a significant change in temperature in the room. A couple of notes - the room is 15X13 so I kept the closet door open as well as the bathroom door to make the square footage more equal. Also, there are 2 windows in this room and the room is completely exposed unlike the HT room which has no exposure. It is about 15 degrees F here today with the wind chill.

Unless those notes make the rooms vastly dissimilar, it would seem that very little heating / cooling for that room would be necessary. IMO, it seems like a mini split might be the best option since it would not need to operate that often which reduces the costs you spoke to above. As well, I could look at a dual zone unit, put one in the room and one in the AV closet and remove the need for a fan and vent in the closet.

Does that seem reasonable?


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Joe,

The below is a bit rambling (yes, more than normal), but coherent I think. Apologies for the style/structure in advance:

Unfortunately comparing a room with 2 exterior walls to one with none adds some significant error to the comparison. My heat transfer math skills are completely atrophied, so I cannot estimate how large of a difference it will make, but my gut tells me it's a lot.

Do you have a completely interior room you can test? Likely not (e.g. the only one I have is a small bathroom), but it's worth asking. Even if it's way smaller, it might be worth a try (scaling the heat load to the room cubic footage as you did).

Onto actual cooling options:
You could place the mini split in the room with the highest heat load. Depending on # of people (and the actual power draw of your equipment under typical viewing conditions) this could be either room. You'd then need a fan (and return) to circulate that conditioned air to the other room. 

Another option, as you just indicated, would be a 2 zone mini-split. The mechanics of that seem sub optimal to me (how do you shunt the refrigerant to just the evaporator that is calling for it? A 3 way valve?), but if a 2 zone mini split is a typical configuration, ignore my knee jerk hesitation. The drawback of a 2 zone without an air exchange between the small HT equipment room and the main HT is that the temp in the equipment room will change rapidly due to its small air volume (this criticism applies to the equipment room lacking an air exchange with the main HT room regardless of mini-split configuration). This will cycle the mini-split more often than is good for it. Refrigerant compressors "don't like" being cycled on/off (or so the rule of thumb goes - I have not seen empirical evidence of this but it makes sense).

After thinking about this some more, here's the idea I think I like the most:
1) Find a fan that's quiet and rated for continuous use to circulate air between the equipment room and the HT room. This Panasonic line might be a good choice. Pick a CFM that will change the air in the equipment room enough to keep the temp rise to less than 15 degrees F. If you give me the electrical use of your equipment in watts and the room volume, I can do the math for you. An HVAC contractor should be able to tie this into a thermostat control (temp gets too high, it turns on the fan). If the on-off of the fan is annoying, you can adjust the thermostat down before a viewing session so it's on continuously during movie time.
2) Duct this exhaust fan from the equipment room ceiling to a place on the far side of the HT room, preferably also away from seating positions (for air flow noise reasons) and away from the screen.
3) Cut a return from the HT room into the equipment room, keep it close to the floor.
4) Use the mini-split to control the temp in the HT room.

This would turn the HT room and equipment room into one air volume/thermal mass for HVAC purposes while also keeping both isolated from the rest of the house acoustically. Going from memory, the mini-split you're considering had pretty low noise ratings on the low and medium settings, so I do not see it as a major issue having that in the HT room itself (vs. putting it into the equipment room).

If you want the only mini-split to be in the equipment room, you'll have to size the circulation fan (between the equipment room and main HT) to flow as much or more air in CFM as the mini-split. If duct routing space allows, you could use a large cross section duct to keep the air velocity, and therefore the fan noise, relatively low.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyHVAC



NegativeEntropy said:


> Joe,
> 
> The below is a bit rambling (yes, more than normal), but coherent I think. Apologies for the style/structure in advance:
> 
> Unfortunately comparing a room with 2 exterior walls to one with none adds some significant error to the comparison. My heat transfer math skills are completely atrophied, so I cannot estimate how large of a difference it will make, but my gut tells me it's a lot.
> 
> Do you have a completely interior room you can test? Likely not (e.g. the only one I have is a small bathroom), but it's worth asking. Even if it's way smaller, it might be worth a try (scaling the heat load to the room cubic footage as you did).


That is what I was afraid of - I wanted to try to use the finished area in the basement, but there was no door to be able to keep the heat from coming up the stairs. I do have a small bathroom as well. I will set that up tomorrow and re-run the test to see how it comes out.



NegativeEntropy said:


> Onto actual cooling options:
> You could place the mini split in the room with the highest heat load. Depending on # of people (and the actual power draw of your equipment under typical viewing conditions) this could be either room. You'd then need a fan (and return) to circulate that conditioned air to the other room.
> 
> Another option, as you just indicated, would be a 2 zone mini-split. The mechanics of that seem sub optimal to me (how do you shunt the refrigerant to just the evaporator that is calling for it? A 3 way valve?), but if a 2 zone mini split is a typical configuration, ignore my knee jerk hesitation. The drawback of a 2 zone without an air exchange between the small HT equipment room and the main HT is that the temp in the equipment room will change rapidly due to its small air volume (this criticism applies to the equipment room lacking an air exchange with the main HT room regardless of mini-split configuration). This will cycle the mini-split more often than is good for it. Refrigerant compressors "don't like" being cycled on/off (or so the rule of thumb goes - I have not seen empirical evidence of this but it makes sense).


Good point - I did not consider how often the unit would run if it had to cool the closet.



NegativeEntropy said:


> After thinking about this some more, here's the idea I think I like the most:
> 1) Find a fan that's quiet and rated for continuous use to circulate air between the equipment room and the HT room. This Panasonic line might be a good choice. Pick a CFM that will change the air in the equipment room enough to keep the temp rise to less than 15 degrees F. If you give me the electrical use of your equipment in watts and the room volume, I can do the math for you. An HVAC contractor should be able to tie this into a thermostat control (temp gets too high, it turns on the fan). If the on-off of the fan is annoying, you can adjust the thermostat down before a viewing session so it's on continuously during movie time.
> 2) Duct this exhaust fan from the equipment room ceiling to a place on the far side of the HT room, preferably also away from seating positions (for air flow noise reasons) and away from the screen.
> 3) Cut a return from the HT room into the equipment room, keep it close to the floor.
> 4) Use the mini-split to control the temp in the HT room.
> 
> This would turn the HT room and equipment room into one air volume/thermal mass for HVAC purposes while also keeping both isolated from the rest of the house acoustically. Going from memory, the mini-split you're considering had pretty low noise ratings on the low and medium settings, so I do not see it as a major issue having that in the HT room itself (vs. putting it into the equipment room).
> 
> If you want the only mini-split to be in the equipment room, you'll have to size the circulation fan (between the equipment room and main HT) to flow as much or more air in CFM as the mini-split. If duct routing space allows, you could use a large cross section duct to keep the air velocity, and therefore the fan noise, relatively low.


Great idea! All I need to do is employ the same enclosed soffit / false soffit set-up I am doing along the other 2 non-screen walls so I can enclose the duct run behind the DD / GG. Thanks Ryan! :clap::clap:


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyHVAC



ALMFamily said:


> That is what I was afraid of - I wanted to try to use the finished area in the basement, but there was no door to be able to keep the heat from coming up the stairs. I do have a small bathroom as well. I will set that up tomorrow and re-run the test to see how it comes out.


OK, I re-ran the test this morning using the small bathroom. t is roughly 1/6th the size of the HT room, so I ran the heater for 20 mins at 800W. Happy to say, there was not a significant temperature change. Given the results of this, I am thinking the mini split would be a good investment that would cool both the HT and equipment room employing your solution above Ryan and would not need to run that often to keep both rooms at a comfortable temp.

Thoughts?


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## NegativeEntropy

Bounce the idea off your HVAC guy and, assuming he has no significant reservations, I say go for it.


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## ALMFamily

Thanks again for all the help! :TT


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## NegativeEntropy

Glad to! I was unable to build a dedicated room, so part of this is me planning (which is one of my favorite things) vicariously through you so to speak.

I hope it all works out as you hope.


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyHVAC

OK, so I went downstairs tonight to "plan" out how to implement that very fine idea. Unfortunately, I have hit a snag.

The equipment room in essence has 2 runs of joists in it that I can potentially install the fan. However, as you can see in this picture, one of those is filled with a flexible duct line that feeds the living room on the main level.

The second is currently empty; however, as you can see in this picture, that is where all the conduit for the speaker lines will feed into the rear of the equipment closet thus filling the 2nd joist opening.

I then looked for a wall mounted fan that could be installed in the opening in the closet leading to the rear soffit as you can see here. However, the wall mounted units I looked at only have 8" duct openings, and the unit itself is larger (@11-12" wide) while that opening is only 6". I could make it 7.5" by cutting out the 2X2 support, but that will still not be large enough.

As a point of reference, here is a link to the sketch-up I did of the room.

Here is the idea I have to solve this issue - mount the mini split inside unit over the candy counter facing the opposite wall. Cut the vent into the equipment closet as described previously. In this header area over the equipment door opening, install this type of fan - more than likely 2-3 to pull air from the closet and push it back into the HT room in the entryway which is on the opposite side from the screen and behind where anyone will be sitting. Fill the rest of the opening not filled by the fans with reflective 703. Cover the header opening with a black cloth material that will allow the air to pass through.

The only concerns I can think of are potential fan noise (29db does not seem like a huge issue) and if this is a good area to push that air to.

I am open to other suggestions of course.... :bigsmile:


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## Prof.

Hey Joe...It looks like you have a bit of a dilemma on your hands!
There's a couple of things I would change...providing that it will be suitable for your construction..

Firstly the mini split..
I take it that the candy counter is that bluish colour to the left of the rear seats in your sketchup..and that you're planning to mount the unit on the wall behind it..
That would not be the best position IMO..inasmuch that the air would be blowing on the back of the necks of people sitting in the front seats..which is not very comfortable..

I would suggest moving it to the wall behind the popcorn machine (if that's what it is in the sketch)..That way the air is directed more to the faces of people..both in the front row and rear row..and depending of course on what's behind that wall..

The cooling of your equipment cabinet...

If those fans that you're thinking of putting in the header are producing 29dB..That's not exactly quiet..considering you're looking at putting in 2 or 3 of them..29dB. is about what a projector fan puts out and you can hear that quite clearly in quiet passages in movies..
Also you would be blowing heat into the room..which is not bad in the winter time..but not a good idea.

I realise you have limitation for a conventional ceiling mounted exhaust fan, but there might be an alternative way of doing it..
If I was in that situation I would put in an Inline Extractor fan..The beauty of these units is that the motor goes into the roof cavity, far away as possible to reduce noise coming into the room and you run a duct to where you want to place the opening..
Generally the registers for these types of units is only about 6 or 7 inches in diam..which should fit into the space you're looking at..

I hope that is of some help..


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyHVAC



Prof. said:


> Hey Joe...It looks like you have a bit of a dilemma on your hands!
> There's a couple of things I would change...providing that it will be suitable for your construction..
> 
> Firstly the mini split..
> I take it that the candy counter is that bluish colour to the left of the rear seats in your sketchup..and that you're planning to mount the unit on the wall behind it..
> That would not be the best position IMO..inasmuch that the air would be blowing on the back of the necks of people sitting in the front seats..which is not very comfortable..
> 
> I would suggest moving it to the wall behind the popcorn machine (if that's what it is in the sketch)..That way the air is directed more to the faces of people..both in the front row and rear row..and depending of course on what's behind that wall..


You are right - that is probably a better location air flow wise. I am going to need to have a drain line to somewhere, and the only options open to me at the moment are into the sump pump in that front closet (it's an older version that does not have a closed cover) and the washing machine drain line which is the room you enter the HT from. The HVAC guy is supposed to let me know if the sump pump is a no-no. I was planning on it being a no-no, so I was trying to keep the unit as close to the back of the room as possible. The good news - the only non-concrete wall is the one with the entry - the rest are foundation walls.

On the plus side, the Mr Slim I have been looking at has a feature that "spreads" the air throughout the room as well as the ability to direct the air up/down so if I have to put it above the candy counter, at least I can control where it blows to some degree.



Prof. said:


> The cooling of your equipment cabinet...
> 
> If those fans that you're thinking of putting in the header are producing 29dB..That's not exactly quiet..considering you're looking at putting in 2 or 3 of them..29dB. is about what a projector fan puts out and you can hear that quite clearly in quiet passages in movies..
> Also you would be blowing heat into the room..which is not bad in the winter time..but not a good idea.
> 
> I realise you have limitation for a conventional ceiling mounted exhaust fan, but there might be an alternative way of doing it..
> If I was in that situation I would put in an Inline Extractor fan..The beauty of these units is that the motor goes into the roof cavity, far away as possible to reduce noise coming into the room and you run a duct to where you want to place the opening..
> Generally the registers for these types of units is only about 6 or 7 inches in diam..which should fit into the space you're looking at..
> 
> I hope that is of some help..


Hmmm.... I did not realize they would be that loud. It is looking more like I am going to have to vent the equipment room out into the adjoining laundry room. I can still cut a vent in the HT / equipment room wall to allow the fan to draw cooler air from the HT room, but the question with that is how much static pressure I will create in the HT room by doing that. Hopefully, Ryan sees this and can answer that - he knows so much that makes me go :scratch:.

I am sure if the static pressure is not an issue, I can rig something up to deal with cutting a hole in my soundproofing. 

Thanks for the feedback Prof!


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Joe,

First, my apologies for not keeping up this week.

Second, posted dB ratings for most things are, unfortunately, almost meaningless. Similar to how most things in audio are measured, without specifying all of the test conditions, they are not comparable. It would be nice if there was an ASTM or ISO standard everyone could and did follow for testing. Anyway...

Given your concern about noise leakage (that drove you to the mini-split), I encourage you to try to find a solution like the in-line duct fan Prof suggested of the fan you linked to. Given the difficulty in finding useful noise data, you have to either test it yourself (with what is hopefully a good return policy) or find reliable reviews of recommendations. Unfortunately I can offer neither as I have not researched or used products of this type.

The small fans you linked to would likely work just fine as long as you sealed all of the space around them (made a bulkhead for them). The price makes me cringe (a quiet, 120mm computer fan is $8-16 or so), but as long as you are good with it, that's what matters. The only downside of just using a local fan (without a duct) is that you'd be exhausting the hot air from the equipment room to just outside of it. If the return was local to the exhaust (bottom of the door?), you might get compromised ventilation as it would tend to just cycle the same air in and out. This would be remedied if the mini-split was blowing air to the door area and mixing it up or by locating the return away from the door.

I'll state the "I am not in the HVAC" business disclaimer again, but I agree with your concern of just having an exhaust form the equipment room into the adjoining space. Without a return, and assuming the HT room construction seals it relatively well from the rest of the house, you'll get little flow.

For example, at my workplace we have a paint booth with an exhaust fan that sends something like 8500 cfm of air out of the roof. This creates low air pressure in the entire 30,000+square foot building such that opening exterior doors can be modestly difficult because we do not have a specific source of return or make up air to offset the large exhaust source. The paint booth exhaust fan is a "high static" fan and exploits all of the leaks in the building to get the air it needs, but any fan you are likely to use may not succeed as well.

If you end up needing to go this route, get a fan with a "squirrel cage" style vs the "axial" style. High static pressure fans are also louder than low static pressure fans, so that's more motivation to find a solution :bigsmile:

I would fully expect you can use the sump pump as a condensate discharge. Homes without floor drains at their furnace/AC use a small condensate pump to pump to a remote drain. I do not see this as any different. The only downside I see is that you need to make sure the sump pump discharge does not freeze in winter. In my house, that would be a likely deal killer for using the sump pump.

I hope this helps. I'm off to enjoy my just arrived Ascend Sierra Towers, but I'll check back in the morning or yet late tonight.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyHVAC



NegativeEntropy said:


> Joe,
> 
> First, my apologies for not keeping up this week.


No worries Ryan - please don't feel obligated to check in often. I do appreciate your input whenever you are able!



NegativeEntropy said:


> Second, posted dB ratings for most things are, unfortunately, almost meaningless. Similar to how most things in audio are measured, without specifying all of the test conditions, they are not comparable. It would be nice if there was an ASTM or ISO standard everyone could and did follow for testing. Anyway...
> 
> Given your concern about noise leakage (that drove you to the mini-split), I encourage you to try to find a solution like the in-line duct fan Prof suggested of the fan you linked to. Given the difficulty in finding useful noise data, you have to either test it yourself (with what is hopefully a good return policy) or find reliable reviews of recommendations. Unfortunately I can offer neither as I have not researched or used products of this type.
> 
> The small fans you linked to would likely work just fine as long as you sealed all of the space around them (made a bulkhead for them). The price makes me cringe (a quiet, 120mm computer fan is $8-16 or so), but as long as you are good with it, that's what matters. The only downside of just using a local fan (without a duct) is that you'd be exhausting the hot air from the equipment room to just outside of it. If the return was local to the exhaust (bottom of the door?), you might get compromised ventilation as it would tend to just cycle the same air in and out. This would be remedied if the mini-split was blowing air to the door area and mixing it up or by locating the return away from the door.


If I have to go this route, I will more than likely run the duct further away from the door to the HT. I already have my next project in mind (after the HT) and that is to finish the laundry room and workshop to make them separate rooms. I plan on drop ceiling so I should be able to vent anywhere in that area I want. This way, I can put the in line fan out in the laundry room above the drop ceiling and not have to worry about an access panel. Also, I would not have to be concerned with any noise from the fan.



NegativeEntropy said:


> I'll state the "I am not in the HVAC" business disclaimer again, but I agree with your concern of just having an exhaust form the equipment room into the adjoining space. Without a return, and assuming the HT room construction seals it relatively well from the rest of the house, you'll get little flow.
> 
> For example, at my workplace we have a paint booth with an exhaust fan that sends something like 8500 cfm of air out of the roof. This creates low air pressure in the entire 30,000+square foot building such that opening exterior doors can be modestly difficult because we do not have a specific source of return or make up air to offset the large exhaust source. The paint booth exhaust fan is a "high static" fan and exploits all of the leaks in the building to get the air it needs, but any fan you are likely to use may not succeed as well.
> 
> If you end up needing to go this route, get a fan with a "squirrel cage" style vs the "axial" style. High static pressure fans are also louder than low static pressure fans, so that's more motivation to find a solution :bigsmile:


Most of the research I have done points to engaging your AV cooling devices once temp hits 86 degrees. The basement probably runs a normal temp of 68(ish) degrees. With that large of a difference, how long / often would the air need to be expelled anyway? Do you have some way to use wattage from the devices in that closet to determine how fast the room would reach that temp? It just seems like the fan would not be running all that often, so the static pressure build-up in the room wouldn't be horrible. Of course, I am no HVAC guy either, so what do I know? :dumbcrazy:



NegativeEntropy said:


> I would fully expect you can use the sump pump as a condensate discharge. Homes without floor drains at their furnace/AC use a small condensate pump to pump to a remote drain. I do not see this as any different. The only downside I see is that you need to make sure the sump pump discharge does not freeze in winter. In my house, that would be a likely deal killer for using the sump pump.


No worries there - I checked it when I first thought of the idea.



NegativeEntropy said:


> I hope this helps. I'm off to enjoy my just arrived Ascend Sierra Towers, but I'll check back in the morning or yet late tonight.


Your feedback always helps! :T And, I expect a full disclosure on your impressions of the Ascends - they are on my audition list! Matter of fact, I see that you are in Eastern Minnesota. If you keep those, I may have to just "pop" in to get a "review" in person! :rofl2:

Oh, I spent my day cleaning my current "man-cave" in the basement. After I got it done, I stripped a couple pictures off the wall, set up my projector, grabbed a DVD player, and threw in a DVD. No calibration, no sound, just wanted to fire it up to see how it looked. The wife and kids loved it - and I must say, it gave me another prod in the backside to get the room going - it looked very good! And, that was with just a plan old video only cable!


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## raZorTT

ALMFamily said:


> After I got it done, I stripped a couple pictures off the wall, set up my projector, grabbed a DVD player, and threw in a DVD


DANGER!  DANGER!  DANGER!


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## NegativeEntropy

ALMFamily said:


> ALMFamilyHVAC
> 
> If I have to go this route, I will more than likely run the duct further away from the door to the HT. I already have my next project in mind (after the HT) and that is to finish the laundry room and workshop to make them separate rooms. I plan on drop ceiling so I should be able to vent anywhere in that area I want. This way, I can put the in line fan out in the laundry room above the drop ceiling and not have to worry about an access panel. Also, I would not have to be concerned with any noise from the fan.
> 
> 
> Most of the research I have done points to engaging your AV cooling devices once temp hits 86 degrees. The basement probably runs a normal temp of 68(ish) degrees. With that large of a difference, how long / often would the air need to be expelled anyway? Do you have some way to use wattage from the devices in that closet to determine how fast the room would reach that temp? It just seems like the fan would not be running all that often, so the static pressure build-up in the room wouldn't be horrible. Of course, I am no HVAC guy either, so what do I know? :dumbcrazy:


If you can route the equipment room exhaust to the far side of the adjoining room, then can you add a return from the same room right in the wall (perhaps with some of the baffling previously described)?

It will not create so much suction you'll have trouble opening the doors (like at my workplace), but without a return the actual airflow delivered will be greatly reduced. Think of it as trying to push water through a garden hose. With an air return, the effective length of the hose is small, say 10 feet. Without a return, the effort to push the water increases, as though the hose were much longer, say 30 feet. Given that the fans can only do so much work the flow will be less.

If you can use something like one of those Panasonic exhaust fans I linked to it would likely still be fine. Those small axial HT fans though would likely flow in the range of 20-30 cfm rather than the rated 50.

The time to heat the air all depends on the rate heat is added. The problem you'll have is that the room is small. A small volume of air can be heated very quickly (think of your oven).

And yes, if you provide me the cubic footage of the equipment room and an "average wattage" number for electricity that will be consumed by devices in the room, I can run the numbers. 

Or, use the calculator here as follows:

Take the volume of your equipment room in cubic meters, multiply by 1.2 to get the mass of the air in kg (change the units in the calculator to match).

Use 18 degrees F for the temperature change (86-68). Again, make sure the units are set to Deg F or Rankine (same thing).

Leave the "Quantity of heat needed" blank, but make sure the units are in "J" or joules.

The specific heat capacity of air is 1.0, change the units to KJ/Kg.C(K)

Click calculate.This will generate the quantity of heat needed in Joules. A Watt is a Joule per second, so divide the Joules number by the Watts your equipment consumes in the room to get the seconds required to heat the air in the room.

For example, a 4 cubic meter room has 4.8 kg of air in it. The calculator shows 48000 J to heat the room by 18 degrees F. At 400 watts that's only 2 minutes.

Now, this calculation makes a pile of assumptions we know to be false, but it should be good to a first approximation.

It also gives you what you need to calculate a reasonable minimum airflow for the room. The above example of 4 cubic meters equals 141 cubic feet. If it takes 2 minutes to heat the air, changing out the air in the same 2 minutes should provide adequate cooling. So that would mean only 70 cfm (minimum) of air exchange is needed.

Make sure the wattage number you use is realistic - preferably from actual measurements. If you cannot take actual measurements, point me back to the equipment in the room (I know you listed it somewhere) and I can try to estimate. I can take actual measurements from my receiver too which, I believe, is the same as yours.



ALMFamily said:


> Your feedback always helps! :T And, I expect a full disclosure on your impressions of the Ascends - they are on my audition list! Matter of fact, I see that you are in Eastern Minnesota. If you keep those, I may have to just "pop" in to get a "review" in person! :rofl2:


We already know they are keepers - even in my subpar room (with its questionable acoustics), both my wife and I are very satisfied by our listening so far. You are welcome whenever the scheduling works, but it's about a 3 hour drive. I should have the center channel in another 2-3 weeks.



ALMFamily said:


> Oh, I spent my day cleaning my current "man-cave" in the basement. After I got it done, I stripped a couple pictures off the wall, set up my projector, grabbed a DVD player, and threw in a DVD. No calibration, no sound, just wanted to fire it up to see how it looked. The wife and kids loved it - and I must say, it gave me another prod in the backside to get the room going - it looked very good! And, that was with just a plan old video only cable!


I'm glad your initial impressions were positive! I'm using my AE4000 onto just Kilz primer and I think it's excellent. I'll second the warning not to hook up audio to get it functional until your room is done. My room is "done enough" and that's where it has stayed!


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Some data for power use in your equipment room.

I measured the power consumption of the Onkyo TX-NR709 receiver at the wall. It seemed to exhibit interesting behavior at low volumes, at least when initially turned on, drawing only 50 watts up to a volume setting of 50. After cranking it up, the new idle draw became about 86 watts. I did not test this extensively to try to understand it further. It may be that once higher power is needed, it adds more idle draw to keep the extra on tap. I reported the higher numbers below.

Playing rock music (loud section, Zeppelin, Houses of the Holy) and some industrial (Ministry, Jesus Built My Hot Rod - after the intro it's all loud), here are the volume settings and power draw range, driving only the 2 Sierra Towers running full range. Format is Volume/Watts (min-max)
50/87
60/92-97
70/108-123
80/138-194
89/299-404 :hsd:

The knob goes up to something like 98. I think my ears would bleed, at least with this source material!

I should note that I would not listen for extended sessions at louder than a setting of 60. I wore ear plugs for this experiment session. It was obnoxiously loud at and above 70.

Playing a portion of the battle with the cave troll in the LOTR - Fellowship, Mines of Moria, I measured the following (this includes a bookshelf, Ascend CBM-170 SE as a center - sensitivity of 89 dB Anechoic, no surrounds)
70/95-129
80/128-219

Watching an entire movie at 70 would be too much with these speakers, in my room. So, for me, an average power draw of 100W would be conservative for the receiver.

The Kill-A-Watt screen updates about 2 times a second, so do not use these numbers for momentary peaks of power draw.


----------



## ALMFamily

Sorry, the wife and I left to Chicago yesterday morning so I did not get a chance to respond until now.



raZorTT said:


> DANGER!  DANGER!  DANGER!


I know right!!! I did it mainly to make sure it was working fine as it will sit for a few months before I get to use it. :bigsmile: 




NegativeEntropy said:


> If you can route the equipment room exhaust to the far side of the adjoining room, then can you add a return from the same room right in the wall (perhaps with some of the baffling previously described)?
> 
> It will not create so much suction you'll have trouble opening the doors (like at my workplace), but without a return the actual airflow delivered will be greatly reduced. Think of it as trying to push water through a garden hose. With an air return, the effective length of the hose is small, say 10 feet. Without a return, the effort to push the water increases, as though the hose were much longer, say 30 feet. Given that the fans can only do so much work the flow will be less.
> 
> If you can use something like one of those Panasonic exhaust fans I linked to it would likely still be fine. Those small axial HT fans though would likely flow in the range of 20-30 cfm rather than the rated 50.
> 
> The time to heat the air all depends on the rate heat is added. The problem you'll have is that the room is small. A small volume of air can be heated very quickly (think of your oven).
> 
> And yes, if you provide me the cubic footage of the equipment room and an "average wattage" number for electricity that will be consumed by devices in the room, I can run the numbers.
> 
> Or, use the calculator here as follows:
> 
> Take the volume of your equipment room in cubic meters, multiply by 1.2 to get the mass of the air in kg (change the units in the calculator to match).
> 
> Use 18 degrees F for the temperature change (86-68). Again, make sure the units are set to Deg F or Rankine (same thing).
> 
> Leave the "Quantity of heat needed" blank, but make sure the units are in "J" or joules.
> 
> The specific heat capacity of air is 1.0, change the units to KJ/Kg.C(K)
> 
> Click calculate.This will generate the quantity of heat needed in Joules. A Watt is a Joule per second, so divide the Joules number by the Watts your equipment consumes in the room to get the seconds required to heat the air in the room.
> 
> For example, a 4 cubic meter room has 4.8 kg of air in it. The calculator shows 48000 J to heat the room by 18 degrees F. At 400 watts that's only 2 minutes.
> 
> Now, this calculation makes a pile of assumptions we know to be false, but it should be good to a first approximation.
> 
> It also gives you what you need to calculate a reasonable minimum airflow for the room. The above example of 4 cubic meters equals 141 cubic feet. If it takes 2 minutes to heat the air, changing out the air in the same 2 minutes should provide adequate cooling. So that would mean only 70 cfm (minimum) of air exchange is needed.
> 
> Make sure the wattage number you use is realistic - preferably from actual measurements. If you cannot take actual measurements, point me back to the equipment in the room (I know you listed it somewhere) and I can try to estimate. I can take actual measurements from my receiver too which, I believe, is the same as yours.


Sigh - such a simple solution - I don't know why I never considered it. Yes, I can definitely add a return right at the bottom of the wall. I can put an in line fan in the "draw" portion to remove the fan noise to the adjoining room as well and bury it behind the drop ceiling. If I get any noise leakage from the return, I can do the baffle as we talked about.

Thanks for the calculator - I will use that to determine that in line fan size.



NegativeEntropy said:


> We already know they are keepers - even in my subpar room (with its questionable acoustics), both my wife and I are very satisfied by our listening so far. You are welcome whenever the scheduling works, but it's about a 3 hour drive. I should have the center channel in another 2-3 weeks.
> 
> I'm glad your initial impressions were positive! I'm using my AE4000 onto just Kilz primer and I think it's excellent. I'll second the warning not to hook up audio to get it functional until your room is done. My room is "done enough" and that's where it has stayed!


If you do not mind it, I would love to drive over and hear them - plus, it sure would be nice to put a face to the name. :bigsmile: I don't mind the drive - my brother and I drove straight to KC and back in one day to pick up my subs. 



NegativeEntropy said:


> Some data for power use in your equipment room.
> 
> I measured the power consumption of the Onkyo TX-NR709 receiver at the wall. It seemed to exhibit interesting behavior at low volumes, at least when initially turned on, drawing only 50 watts up to a volume setting of 50. After cranking it up, the new idle draw became about 86 watts. I did not test this extensively to try to understand it further. It may be that once higher power is needed, it adds more idle draw to keep the extra on tap. I reported the higher numbers below.
> 
> Playing rock music (loud section, Zeppelin, Houses of the Holy) and some industrial (Ministry, Jesus Built My Hot Rod - after the intro it's all loud), here are the volume settings and power draw range, driving only the 2 Sierra Towers running full range. Format is Volume/Watts (min-max)
> 50/87
> 60/92-97
> 70/108-123
> 80/138-194
> 89/299-404 :hsd:
> 
> The knob goes up to something like 98. I think my ears would bleed, at least with this source material!
> 
> I should note that I would not listen for extended sessions at louder than a setting of 60. I wore ear plugs for this experiment session. It was obnoxiously loud at and above 70.
> 
> Playing a portion of the battle with the cave troll in the LOTR - Fellowship, Mines of Moria, I measured the following (this includes a bookshelf, Ascend CBM-170 SE as a center - sensitivity of 89 dB Anechoic, no surrounds)
> 70/95-129
> 80/128-219
> 
> Watching an entire movie at 70 would be too much with these speakers, in my room. So, for me, an average power draw of 100W would be conservative for the receiver.
> 
> The Kill-A-Watt screen updates about 2 times a second, so do not use these numbers for momentary peaks of power draw.


Wow Ryan - thanks a lot for taking the time to run all those numbers - I had forgotten about the cave troll scene - I may update my audition list to include that sequence once I start auditioning speakers.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyHVAC

I finally heard back from the HVAC guy. After discussing my space with his engineer, they decided that doing a mini split for my space would be "overkill". 

Their proposal has them using this Panasonic ERV model. Their plan is to tie the feed line into the existing duct work and pull air from there. If the current HVAC system is not running, it will pull air through the existing vents from other areas of the house to feed the HT room. The exhaust line would be fed to the adjoining area and dumped into the "unfinished" basement. The unit itself would be mounted in the soffit at the rear of the room and the feed and exhaust lines would be run through that soffit.

This solution to say the least is making me a little nervous.

From reading the overview, it appears this unit runs continuously to make sure the air is always "fresh". The unit is rated to run at .8 sones if set at 40 CFM - roughly that works out to 32DB (is that accurate?) which seems like it will be much too loud. So, I would want to run it at the lower setting of 20 CFM for less than .3 sones. Is a fan running at 20 CFM going to be able to manage to keep the temp moderated well? If it runs continuously, won't it pull air regardless of temp from the rest of the house? I am not worried about heating the space at all - I have a dedicated outlet and an infrared heater I can fire up to supplement the heat. It is the cooling side I am most concerned with. I think I understand how this will work, but I am wondering if this is correct - setting the unit up so that is pulls air from the rest of the house will in essence keep the HT room at the same temp as the rest of the house. Does that sound accurate? If I vent both the HT and the equipment closet into the adjoining space, am I going to dramatically affect the temp in that space? That space is over 1000 square feet.

Are there any other factors I have missed that I need to worry about? :help:


----------



## raZorTT

Hey Joe, 

The link didn't work for me


----------



## ALMFamily

Sorry, edited the link - should be good to go now.

Thanks!


----------



## NegativeEntropy

ALMFamily said:


> ALMFamilyHVAC
> 
> I finally heard back from the HVAC guy. After discussing my space with his engineer, they decided that doing a mini split for my space would be "overkill".
> 
> Their proposal has them using this Panasonic ERV model. Their plan is to tie the feed line into the existing duct work and pull air from there. If the current HVAC system is not running, it will pull air through the existing vents from other areas of the house to feed the HT room. The exhaust line would be fed to the adjoining area and dumped into the "unfinished" basement. The unit itself would be mounted in the soffit at the rear of the room and the feed and exhaust lines would be run through that soffit.
> 
> This solution to say the least is making me a little nervous.
> 
> From reading the overview, it appears this unit runs continuously to make sure the air is always "fresh". The unit is rated to run at .8 sones if set at 40 CFM - roughly that works out to 32DB (is that accurate?) which seems like it will be much too loud. So, I would want to run it at the lower setting of 20 CFM for less than .3 sones. Is a fan running at 20 CFM going to be able to manage to keep the temp moderated well? If it runs continuously, won't it pull air regardless of temp from the rest of the house? I am not worried about heating the space at all - I have a dedicated outlet and an infrared heater I can fire up to supplement the heat. It is the cooling side I am most concerned with. I think I understand how this will work, but I am wondering if this is correct - setting the unit up so that is pulls air from the rest of the house will in essence keep the HT room at the same temp as the rest of the house. Does that sound accurate? If I vent both the HT and the equipment closet into the adjoining space, am I going to dramatically affect the temp in that space? That space is over 1000 square feet.
> 
> Are there any other factors I have missed that I need to worry about? :help:


Joe,

First, apologies for the length of this post. As you know, I prefer to be thorough and over-communicate to help avoid miscommunication when possible.

I think you are right to be concerned with the proposed ERV.

First, this is a scope change. One of the conditions you shared is to not have the HT room tied into the main HVAC for noise transfer reasons. By putting an ERV into the HT room and supplying it from the main HVAC supply trunk, you're coupling them. Granted, it will not be as "bad" as a direct coupling, but still, it's a change.

This particular scope change is fine as long as you, the customer, are OK with it.

However, I think the HVAC "engineer" overlooked something rather important. As you pointed out, when the main HVAC is not running, this will be pulling standard house air. In the climate we share, there are some significant months of the year (parts of both spring and fall) where the main HVAC barely runs. This means this ERV will be trying to condition your HT with household ambient temperature air only in these months. If the cooling load from your HT is at all significant, this would require massive airflow.

This proffered "solution" prompted me to do more homework. The formulas in the below link are a different way of looking at the problem from how I suggested the other day, and they're easier to use.

See here http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/cooling-heating-equations-d_747.html and in particular, the equations which are represented in this chart for "sensible load required air flow". This chart shows the airflow in CFM needed to maintain a particular temperature difference (or use air of a given temperature difference to maintain a steady temp). 

For example, if your basement air is 68 degrees F year round and you want to keep the HT at 75 degrees F by using that air (7 degrees cooler than the HT room set point), we can calculate the needed cfm. First, we need the heat load. Your projector puts out about 250 watts. Each (adult) person is about 100 watts more. This ignores anything else that uses electricity in the room. With 4 people then that would be 650 watts. This translates to 2216 BTU/hr.

Using the equation then: q [cfm] = 2216/(1.08 * 7) = 293 cfm. This is a little more than 40.

We can use the same equation to calculate the temperature rise with 40 cfm of airflow: 2216/(40*1.08) =51 degrees F. So, your HT room would reach equilibrium at 68+51 = 119 degrees F over a long viewing/listening session. This last example is obviously not very realistic, but it highlights just how insufficient 40 cfm of ambient air is to cool a 650 W load. Another way to look at it is that you would need to cool the room with air that is 51 degrees colder than the room temperature you wanted to maintain (75-51 = 24 deg F air).*

So, even when the AC is running, it would be inadequate as typical AC discharge air temp is ~50 degrees F. If the AC was running 100% of the time, delivering 40 cfm of 50 degree F air to your HT, you could hold a 75 degree HT room temp with a total heat load of 1080 BTU/hr or about 317 W. So, that would be enough for the projector and 1 person. Maybe.

If you want to use regular household air to cool (or heat) the HT you're going to need lots of air. An ERV then is not the best way to deliver this. Panasonic fans are nice and quiet. You could use 2, 130 cfm fans to pump air from a large, 68 degree F air space to your HT and keep ~1965 BUT/hr or ~575 watts at 75 degrees F. You'd want to have your main HVAC fan running to keep changing the air in the supply room (that 1000 sq ft space you referred to).

I could go further, but you get the idea.

Post here or use the formula*** to decide if ambient air cooling is an option. This will depend completely on the available air temp (the 68 degrees I have been using) and what temp you want to maintain in your HT. You could place one or more "exhaust" fans in you air supply room, sending the 68 degree air to your HT, then you'd need returns in equal or large cross sectional area going back to that room. Since most of the noise is in the fan units themselves, this might actually work, but you'd need to tolerate a higher temp in the HT room than what was available in the supply air room. Unless you want a "warm" HT room, my guess is that this is a no go.

If this approach will not work or is not desirable, then I think the mini-split is a good solution, though, as you know, it's not cheap up front. 

*it's actually worse than this because the ERV does not transfer all of the heat, but at 40 cfm it's so far from being sufficient that it does not matter.

** you can use the same formula I linked in this thread to calculate the cfm needed for the equipment room once you have an average power draw and pick a temperature you can live with in that room. e.g. 400W and 90 degrees F -> 58 cfm if cooling from a 68 degree source.

*** I whipped up an Excel spreadsheet to make testing various scenarios easier. It is attached.


----------



## ALMFamily

NegativeEntropy said:


> Joe,
> 
> First, apologies for the length of this post. As you know, I prefer to be thorough and over-communicate to help avoid miscommunication when possible.


Never a problem my friend......



NegativeEntropy said:


> I think you are right to be concerned with the proposed ERV.
> 
> First, this is a scope change. One of the conditions you shared is to not have the HT room tied into the main HVAC for noise transfer reasons. By putting an ERV into the HT room and supplying it from the main HVAC supply trunk, you're coupling them. Granted, it will not be as "bad" as a direct coupling, but still, it's a change.
> 
> This particular scope change is fine as long as you, the customer, are OK with it.


This, by far, was my biggest cause of concern. The opening needed for this size unit is almost 15"x20" - that is an enormous hole IMO which was the last thing I said to him before I hung up. I explained my soundproofing concerns as best I could up front, but I suppose that is not their area of expertise and perhaps he did not completely understand.



NegativeEntropy said:


> However, I think the HVAC "engineer" overlooked something rather important. As you pointed out, when the main HVAC is not running, this will be pulling standard house air. In the climate we share, there are some significant months of the year (parts of both spring and fall) where the main HVAC barely runs. This means this ERV will be trying to condition your HT with household ambient temperature air only in these months. If the cooling load from your HT is at all significant, this would require massive airflow.


I also read that this could in fact engage the furnace blower - not a very economical solution.



NegativeEntropy said:


> This proffered "solution" prompted me to do more homework. The formulas in the below link are a different way of looking at the problem from how I suggested the other day, and they're easier to use.


I cannot even begin to express how much I appreciate all your time and effort on my behalf. Thank you very much.



NegativeEntropy said:


> See here http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/cooling-heating-equations-d_747.html and in particular, the equations which are represented in this chart for "sensible load required air flow". This chart shows the airflow in CFM needed to maintain a particular temperature difference (or use air of a given temperature difference to maintain a steady temp).
> 
> For example, if your basement air is 68 degrees F year round and you want to keep the HT at 75 degrees F by using that air (7 degrees cooler than the HT room set point), we can calculate the needed cfm. First, we need the heat load. Your projector puts out about 250 watts. Each (adult) person is about 100 watts more. This ignores anything else that uses electricity in the room. With 4 people then that would be 650 watts. This translates to 2216 BTU/hr.
> 
> Using the equation then: q [cfm] = 2216/(1.08 * 7) = 293 cfm. This is a little more than 40.
> 
> We can use the same equation to calculate the temperature rise with 40 cfm of airflow: 2216/(40*1.08) =51 degrees F. So, your HT room would reach equilibrium at 68+51 = 119 degrees F over a long viewing/listening session. This last example is obviously not very realistic, but it highlights just how insufficient 40 cfm of ambient air is to cool a 650 W load. Another way to look at it is that you would need to cool the room with air that is 51 degrees colder than the room temperature you wanted to maintain (75-51 = 24 deg F air).*
> 
> So, even when the AC is running, it would be inadequate as typical AC discharge air temp is ~50 degrees F. If the AC was running 100% of the time, delivering 40 cfm of 50 degree F air to your HT, you could hold a 75 degree HT room temp with a total heat load of 1080 BTU/hr or about 317 W. So, that would be enough for the projector and 1 person. Maybe.
> 
> If you want to use regular household air to cool (or heat) the HT you're going to need lots of air. An ERV then is not the best way to deliver this. Panasonic fans are nice and quiet. You could use 2, 130 cfm fans to pump air from a large, 68 degree F air space to your HT and keep ~1965 BUT/hr or ~575 watts at 75 degrees F. You'd want to have your main HVAC fan running to keep changing the air in the supply room (that 1000 sq ft space you referred to).
> 
> I could go further, but you get the idea.
> 
> Post here or use the formula*** to decide if ambient air cooling is an option. This will depend completely on the available air temp (the 68 degrees I have been using) and what temp you want to maintain in your HT. You could place one or more "exhaust" fans in you air supply room, sending the 68 degree air to your HT, then you'd need returns in equal or large cross sectional area going back to that room. Since most of the noise is in the fan units themselves, this might actually work, but you'd need to tolerate a higher temp in the HT room than what was available in the supply air room. Unless you want a "warm" HT room, my guess is that this is a no go.
> 
> If this approach will not work or is not desirable, then I think the mini-split is a good solution, though, as you know, it's not cheap up front.
> 
> *it's actually worse than this because the ERV does not transfer all of the heat, but at 40 cfm it's so far from being sufficient that it does not matter.
> 
> ** you can use the same formula I linked in this thread to calculate the cfm needed for the equipment room once you have an average power draw and pick a temperature you can live with in that room. e.g. 400W and 90 degrees F -> 58 cfm if cooling from a 68 degree source.
> 
> *** I whipped up an Excel spreadsheet to make testing various scenarios easier. It is attached.


Again, Ryan, thanks for everything. Since I started down this path, I assumed at some point I would be doing the mini split and so came to "terms" with the initial cost. I will be letting the contractor know that I do indeed wish to go with the mini split system. I wonder though if he will be OK with me purchasing it myself as I can probably find a dealer online that will give me a better price on a more efficient unit than he will give me. :bigsmile:


----------



## Andre

Hello Joe,

Do you have a final room diagram with where you want your seating and measurements? Distance to screen from seating area, distance from side and rear walls...etc

I take it you have already gone and listened to "some" speakers, have you found any brands that too your ears sound, great or terrible?

for HT I am a beleiver that the Centre is the heart of the entire array. If you can't listen to a set in your house, bring some music with lots of vocals that you know well and listen to just the center in the store. How clean and easy is it to listen too.

The Axiom VP180 is a very large centre that I would recommend. 30day in home trial, mail order company


----------



## ALMFamily

Andre said:


> Hello Joe,
> 
> Do you have a final room diagram with where you want your seating and measurements? Distance to screen from seating area, distance from side and rear walls...etc


First off, thanks for checking in on my build! As of yet - no, I have not created a final layout. The layout I linked on page 1 is still the goal though. :bigsmile: 



Andre said:


> I take it you have already gone and listened to "some" speakers, have you found any brands that too your ears sound, great or terrible?
> 
> for HT I am a beleiver that the Centre is the heart of the entire array. If you can't listen to a set in your house, bring some music with lots of vocals that you know well and listen to just the center in the store. How clean and easy is it to listen too.


I have not actually started listening to speakers yet - I am in the process of creating a research / audition list and started a "journey" thread to document the process and get feedback from the many great people here. I really should update my sig to add a link to that thread.......



Andre said:


> The Axiom VP180 is a very large centre that I would recommend. 30day in home trial, mail order company


Thanks for the suggestion! That is a speaker company I did not have on my radar. Looking at the VP180, it looks like they took the M80 tower speaker and turned it on the side with just a little change in the woofer configuration - very neat.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyHVAC

I finally made a decision on heating/cooling the room. The HVAC guy gave me 2 quotes for mini splits - one for a 14 SEER unit and one for a 23 SEER unit. Given that the difference in cost was negligible, the decision was easy. The unit is from Fujitsu - the 9RLFW. I will plan on writing up a full review on it after installation just in case anyone else needs alternative cooling solutions.

As far as the equipment closet goes, I am no longer going to put a solid wood door on it. I will be going with glass doors that open in the middle. To vent that room, I will be installing a fan and running duct to the other side of the utility room outside the HT using flex duct as well as snaking it to try to control sound leakage. I believe there will be enough of a gap around the glass doors to allow the fan to work optimally. If I find it is not, I will be cutting in a return vent at the bottom of the closet. Once that is in, I can determine if I need to address any sound leakage with a dead/vent / baffle box.

Many thanks to Ryan for his help through this process!! :clap:

Construction update coming tomorrow!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr 

Now that I know where the HVAC will run and be installed, I can finally move forward. Due to the soundproofing planned (whisperclips and hat channel supporting OSB / GG / Drywall), there will be a 3" gap from stud to finished wall. 

To make sure all the outlets were flush, I installed single gang boxes (for speaker conduit and electrical) and had the front edge aligned with the studs. I then installed 2 1.5" handy extension boxes to get the 3" needed to get a flush fit.

Installed boxes

The electrician will be here early next week to do the panel work and wire up the Grafik Eye QS.

I also finished running the conduit for the connections to the location for the tv to display movie posters. I just need to finish running the conduit from the equipment closet to the projector location for HDMI, network, and a serial connection and then my conduit days are over! 

Once the electrician is done, it will be time to start stuffing insulation in walls and ceiling........


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Conduit being complete will be a nice milestone!

I could not see the inside of those extension boxes - I assume they are completely open at the back (other than to fasten to the box behind them)? I ask because if the wire passes through a knockout, please be sure to use the appropriate bushing.

Nice HVAC unit! It should work beautifully.


----------



## ALMFamily

NegativeEntropy said:


> Conduit being complete will be a nice milestone!
> 
> I could not see the inside of those extension boxes - I assume they are completely open at the back (other than to fasten to the box behind them)? I ask because if the wire passes through a knockout, please be sure to use the appropriate bushing.
> 
> Nice HVAC unit! It should work beautifully.


Oh yes - completely open in the back. I actually had to "order" them as they do not normally keep them in stock at Menards.


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> To make sure all the outlets were flush, I installed single gang boxes (for speaker conduit and electrical) and had the front edge aligned with the studs. I then installed 2 1.5" handy extension boxes to get the 3" needed to get a flush fit.


Joe,
Could you not have just added a piece of timber to bring the box flush with the front instead of "piggy backing" them!?


----------



## ALMFamily

I could have put something on the front of the studs to do that, but I was concerned about it closing the damping gap created by the whisper clips / hat channel or getting in the way of the hat channel itself.

As I am finding out today, I have A LOT to learn. I can't get any sound out of my subwoofers atm.......


----------



## NegativeEntropy

The easiest way for a quick test that I know, is to hook up a sub to the sub pre-out of your Onkyo (to the line level in on your sub via an RCA cable, plug in the power cable and turn the sub on), hook your Onkyo up to a display device (e.g. TV) only to make this easier - you can do it without too, go into the Onkyo setup via the remote, "speaker settings", "speaker configuration", set sub to "YES", return up one level via remote "return" button, go to "level calibration" and arrow down to the sub setting - you should hear pink noise and have the ability to adjust the output up/down.


----------



## ALMFamily

I stayed up pretty late last night (well, for me anyway) tinkering and trying things out. Tony was a big help as I kept PMing him asking questions about making cables. 

I ended up hooking the sub directly to the BD player to make sure the sub was good - and it was. So, I finally came to the realization that I made bad cables. So, at the end of the night, I got the speakers and sub squared away, the projector calibrated with the Disney WoW disc, and a plan for making cables to get the other sub going. All in all, a productive night.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyacoust

Too much reading can be a bad thing.... I have come across several threads now (mostly from people using REW) where L / R symmetry is the first point mentioned to address reflections / mode issues.

As you can see from the Sketch-up I created (link on top of page 13), my space is not symmetrical. The seating is located closer to the right wall than the left due to the need to frame in the sump pump / electrical panel. Also, there will be a hallway of sorts in the back to allow for entry which makes the back wall asymmetrical as well.

I am wondering if it is going to be possible to address any acoustic issues without first creating some kind of L / R symmetry in the room? I am by no means an acoustical perfectionist, but I also don't want to create an accoustical he double hockey sticks either. 

Any thoughts / opinions appreciated!

Joe


----------



## bpape

Lack of symmetry simply causes the speakers to react differently due to distance from boundaries. The reflections on one side will be longer and slightly less intense than the other side. Also, the phase interactions will be different from side to side. This can be addressed somewhat through the use of treatments.

Bryan


----------



## ALMFamily

Thank you Bryan - I was hoping you saw my post. :bigsmile:

Just to satiate my curiousity :R :

- As far as the reflections and the difference in intensity, would you address this by using different thicknesses of accoustical treatments at the reflection point? 

- As far as the phase interaction side to side, is this something that a program like Audessey, MCACC, etc addresses by building in a delay to a certain speaker? For example, it is likely that my right surround speaker will be slightly closer to the main listening position than the left surround. Would the program apply a small delay to the right surround to compensate for the distance (and this is where the speaker distance calculated is used)?

Lastly, I am still working on the document you sent as there are a few points that have yet to be determined (speakers and final measurements to name a couple). As soon as I have those figured out, I will be giving you a ring. :bigsmile:


----------



## bpape

You'd use the same thickness/density on both sides. You'd just need to identify what frequencies you're having issues with off the side walls and use appropriate thickness panels to address them.

Audyssey, etc isn't going to fix this. What you're getting is the same frequency (with the same wavelength) taking 2 different paths to get to you - so each is at a different phase in the waveform when it arrives at your ear.

Bryan


----------



## ALMFamily

bpape said:


> You'd use the same thickness/density on both sides. You'd just need to identify what frequencies you're having issues with off the side walls and use appropriate thickness panels to address them.


Thanks Bryan - that makes sense to me now. 



bpape said:


> Audyssey, etc isn't going to fix this. What you're getting is the same frequency (with the same wavelength) taking 2 different paths to get to you - so each is at a different phase in the waveform when it arrives at your ear.
> 
> Bryan


Given that difference in distance and the fact that the side surrounds are between the 1st and 2nd row of seats, would I be better served to go with a bi-pole design for side surrounds rather than direct?


----------



## Andre

You know I never thought of a full dedicated theater until I saw this picture on a website

http://www.cinemadesigngroup.com/wp-content/gallery/custom-theaters/Wheat- R1- back.jpg

I don't know what it costs to have accoustic pannels look like deep space but my want facture has shot WAY up


----------



## bpape

Personally, I prefer dipole's as side surrounds anyway.

For the boundary interactions, I was more worried about the front LCR as the surrounds will be different distances from you but not from the walls so they'll interact with the boundary in the same fashion.

Bryan


----------



## ALMFamily

Andre said:


> You know I never thought of a full dedicated theater until I saw this picture on a website
> 
> http://www.cinemadesigngroup.com/wp-content/gallery/custom-theaters/Wheat- R1- back.jpg
> 
> I don't know what it costs to have accoustic pannels look like deep space but my want facture has shot WAY up


Wow! Those look amazing. Of course, Bill Gates I am not (and I have to believe those are VERY expensive). 



bpape said:


> Personally, I prefer dipole's as side surrounds anyway.
> 
> For the boundary interactions, I was more worried about the front LCR as the surrounds will be different distances from you but not from the walls so they'll interact with the boundary in the same fashion.
> 
> Bryan


onder: Now I get it - thanks Bryan!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyothrav

So, in the reading too much is a bad thing category , I have been keeping up to date with the Oppo 93 thread and someone pointed out that the audio store here in town actually sells the Oppos - right there!

So, I trucked on down there and, of course, walked out with a new Oppo 93. :spend:

It it boxed really well - and it was not even shipped.

Packaging

It is foamed all around the inside - very nice!

Inner packaging

All of the cords / etc. were boxed together - it even came with an HDMI cable!

Box of goodies

Then, to top it all off, it even has it's very own carrying bag! :bigsmile:

Shoulder Bag!

The main attraction:

Oppo 93

Off to go set the new toy up - construction update coming later tonight!


----------



## Prof.

Very nice pickup Joe..:T

I wish I could walk out of a shop with one under my arm..but it's a little bit out of my budget at the moment, considering they cost about $900.00 here!! :gah:


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Very nice pickup Joe..:T
> 
> I wish I could walk out of a shop with one under my arm..but it's a little bit out of my budget at the moment, considering they cost about $900.00 here!! :gah:


:yikes:

My goodness, that is what the 95 costs here. That's quite a difference........


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Milestone reached! All the conduit is done - I hope I have allowed for any future changes because my framework is starting to look like swiss cheese! :rofl2:

Also, all the electrical is done and wired to the panel except the smoke alarm which will be wired into the rest of the house's system. The line is in place - I am planning on putting it in the false soffit. The QS is all set to go and actually worked like a charm! Here is a pic of it installed:

Lutron QS

I tried to capture a couple pics using a lamp light to show the dimming - not sure if you can really tell from the pics but here they are:

100%
50%
10%

I will be starting to put insulation in tomorrow with whisperclips and hat channel to follow.

On a side note, we sat down and watched "How to Train your Dragon" tonight via my thrown-together set-up on the basement wall (has sand grit texture and is painted white). My wife actually turned to me and said "You can really see a lot of detail you could not before". I am not sure if it is the projector, the Oppo, or both but boy was I happy to hear her say that.

I also was quite pleased with the 1st real test for the EmpTek towers - dialogue was very crisp and clear and they performed well through the mids. The kids were also quite funny with the sub - they kept on oohing and aahing. I can't wait to see what both together will do...... :devil:


----------



## Prof.

It all sounds good Joe..
What type of lighting will you be using with the Lutron? You may have mentioned it before, but I recall what it was if you did..


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilylights



Prof. said:


> It all sounds good Joe..
> What type of lighting will you be using with the Lutron? You may have mentioned it before, but I recall what it was if you did..


I have 6 zones Prof:

1. Recessed accent LED lights in the soffits - 3" or 4"
2. Riser lights (thinking LED strips or rope lighting atm)
3. Screen wash lights - also LED like the accent lights
4. Column / screen backwash lighting (LED strips)
5. Light tray (rope lights)
6. Star Ceiling

I will more than likely need to do as you had to to boost the wattage on the riser lights at the very least unless I run them all round the riser. If memory serves, they use something like 3W for every foot.....


----------



## Prof.

Will the recessed be mains LED lights or 12v.?
The LED strips are usually low voltage, so you shouldn't have any dimming problems with them..


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilylights



Prof. said:


> Will the recessed be mains LED lights or 12v.?
> The LED strips are usually low voltage, so you shouldn't have any dimming problems with them..


These are the lights I was considering using for the recessed lights / screen wash lights.


----------



## Prof.

Joe,

The 3000K LED that comes with that housing is a very warm white LED and at 350 lumen is not going to be all that bright..Is this the sort of colour and light output you're looking at for over the screen?


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilylights

To be honest Prof, I really have not spent much time looking at lights yet. I just happened to be in my local HD and saw those lights there and thought LED lights would not throw as much heat and would need to be replaced less often. That was about as far as I got.

Probably a good question for me to ask at this point is if people tend to use lower wattage lighting for screen wash than they do for recessed soffit lighting? If so, those probably fit the bill for screen wash lights.


----------



## Prof.

I'm using 9 Watt Cool White LED's all round and with 2 of them shining on the screen, It lights up the screen with a brilliant whiteness..
Others may prefer to have warmer lighting, but most I've seen seem to be the brighter lighting..


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilylights

I am not putting in any larger cans - the lighting in the soffits will be the main lighting for the room. I am planning on 2-3 for lighting the screen. After that, I will have 2 in the front (in the corners), 4-5 along the side walls, and 4 across the back.

I think what I may do is use 3" LEDs for lighting the screen and 4" for the rest. Or, instead of lighting the screen using cans, perhaps I should consider backlighting it with LED strips instead? Or do both - thoughts?


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

It took a couple of longer days, but I have all of the walls stuffed with R13 now.

In this picture you can see:
1. 2 speaker connection points for side surround and rear side surrounds (future-proof) - these are the top set
2. Column backlight outlets - these are the middle set of 2
3. Lower Outlets - the one on the right is a dedicated line for an IR heater

Left Side back portion

In this picture you can see the last outlet for the column backlight on the left side:

Left Side front / Sump area / left side of screen wall

On the screen wall, you can see:

1. The two lower outlets are for the PB-13's.
2. The two upper outlets are for backlighting the screen and/or bass traps
3. The big box will be a landing point for 2 RCA plugs, an HDMI (future-proof), a network connection (future-proof), and 7 speaker jacks (L/C/R, 2 satellites (future-proof), and 2 passive subs (future-proof)).
4. Not seen - a higher outlet for curtain motor / masking motor (future-proof)

Screen Wall

This picture shows:

1. The right side surround spot - the upper box
2. Column backlight outlets - the two at the middle height
3. Lines out for the riser lights and outlets
4. Speaker run for tactile transducers (future-proof)

Right side front portion

This picture shows the right back portion - toward the backside you can see an outlet for column backlighting, an outlet and PVC entry for the Movie Poster display, and a speaker connection point for a passive sub/RCA port (future-proof).

Right side back portion

On the back wall, you can see the last outlet for column backlighting, an outlet for a powered sub (future-proof), and a speaker connection point for a passive sub/RCA port (future-proof). Up high, you can see the conduit run for HDMI / Network / Serial connection for the projector and lines for the outlets for the projector, light tray, and star ceiling. If you have made it this far, first, I commend you! :bigsmile: Second, I had that one run where it made sense to put the insulation in the opposite way due to the electrical box for the AV closet. Will that be a problem accoustically speaking? I can try to fanagle it in there the other way if so. The electrical box you can see the back of is for the AV closet and has 3 dedicated circuits.

Back Wall

The AV closet and entryway- nothing major to report here. :bigsmile:

AV Closet
Entryway

Next, I am on to the ceiling. Due to the lack of height, I need to put recessed 2x4's in to suspend the whisperclips from for the soundproofing. I will try to document that process as I go along as it is not as mindless as stuffing insulation. :bigsmile:


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> I am not putting in any larger cans - the lighting in the soffits will be the main lighting for the room. I am planning on 2-3 for lighting the screen. After that, I will have 2 in the front (in the corners), 4-5 along the side walls, and 4 across the back.


Is having cans over your LED lights a requirement of the local authorities.? 
GU10 LED bulbs are generally sealed at the back..so no light leak (unlike halogens) and the wattage is so low that there is virtually no heat!..You don't need to cover them..
The number of downlights above your screen is usually determined by the width of the screen and the light spread angle of the LED's..
I'm trying 2 over mine initially, but if it doesn't cover well enough I can always add a middle one later..



> I think what I may do is use 3" LEDs for lighting the screen and 4" for the rest. Or, instead of lighting the screen using cans, perhaps I should consider backlighting it with LED strips instead? Or do both - thoughts?


By back lighting the screen, I presume you mean lighting the perimeter with LED strips to give that halo effect..
That can look nice, but it's a matter of personal choice..Personally I've never considered it..


----------



## Prof.

That's some very nice progress Joe..:T There is always one aspect or more that's very time consuming and boring when building a theatre from scratch..:waiting: You just have to tell yourself sometimes that the end result will be worth all the effort!..
I need to take my own advice at the moment with the filling and sanding job ahead!! :rofl2:



> Second, I had that one run where it made sense to put the insulation in the opposite way due to the electrical box for the AV closet. Will that be a problem accoustically speaking? I can try to fanagle it in there the other way if so.


I wouldn't worry about it..It shouldn't make any difference in that small area..


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilylights



Prof. said:


> Is having cans over your LED lights a requirement of the local authorities.?
> GU10 LED bulbs are generally sealed at the back..so no light leak (unlike halogens) and the wattage is so low that there is virtually no heat!..You don't need to cover them..


My apologies Prof - wrong turn of phrase there. :R You are entirely correct - there are no covers.



Prof. said:


> The number of downlights above your screen is usually determined by the width of the screen and the light spread angle of the LED's..
> I'm trying 2 over mine initially, but if it doesn't cover well enough I can always add a middle one later..


I have forgotten - what is your screen size again?



Prof. said:


> By back lighting the screen, I presume you mean lighting the perimeter with LED strips to give that halo effect..
> That can look nice, but it's a matter of personal choice..Personally I've never considered it..


That is spot on. I think I will do both and probably do as you have planned - go with 2 screen wash lights. Since I have the screen wash lights on a different zone, I can always create different scenes.



Prof. said:


> That's some very nice progress Joe..:T There is always one aspect or more that's very time consuming and boring when building a theatre from scratch..:waiting: You just have to tell yourself sometimes that the end result will be worth all the effort!..
> I need to take my own advice at the moment with the filling and sanding job ahead!! :rofl2:


Oh I feel your pain there - did you decide to go with a belt sander?



Prof. said:


> I wouldn't worry about it..It shouldn't make any difference in that small area..


Perfect - cheers!


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> ALMFamilylights
> I have forgotten - what is your screen size again?


It's 8'6" wide..



> Oh I feel your pain there - did you decide to go with a belt sander?


I think a belt sander might be a bit too severe on the MDF!..MDF has a thin skin that can be damaged very easily if you're not careful..I was thinking of using an orbital sander, but I think I'll just do it the old way now..cork block and sand-paper..
I've also had a change of plans..

I'm now going to completely finish the canopy over the screen first..Filling, sanding, painting and lighting..
I have a colour scheme in mind to try, so I'll see how that looks first (and with the ropelight on) before I proceed to the soffits..


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> It's 8'6" wide..
> 
> 
> I think a belt sander might be a bit too severe on the MDF!..MDF has a thin skin that can be damaged very easily if you're not careful..I was thinking of using an orbital sander, but I think I'll just do it the old way now..cork block and sand-paper..
> I've also had a change of plans..
> 
> I'm now going to completely finish the canopy over the screen first..Filling, sanding, painting and lighting..
> I have a colour scheme in mind to try, so I'll see how that looks first (and with the ropelight on) before I proceed to the soffits..


Ah, I did not realize the soffits were MDF - for some reason I was thinking they were plywood. You know, IMO, there is something very soothing about hand-sanding. Hard on the arms and shoulders to be sure, but for some reason it makes me feel "closer" to the project.

I am pretty certain I will be under a 100" for a screen size, so I am definitely leaning toward 2 screen wash lights......


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> Ah, I did not realize the soffits were MDF - for some reason I was thinking they were plywood. You know, IMO, there is something very soothing about hand-sanding. Hard on the arms and shoulders to be sure, but for some reason it makes me feel "closer" to the project.


So very true..:T



> I am pretty certain I will be under a 100" for a screen size, so I am definitely leaning toward 2 screen wash lights......


I think 2 will be fine..The only reason to have more is if you like the look of the light beams crossing over higher up the screen..


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Nice progress Joe!

With the walls visually closed in, it is starting to look more like a room! :T


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> I think 2 will be fine..The only reason to have more is if you like the look of the light beams crossing over higher up the screen..


2 it is! :T



NegativeEntropy said:


> Nice progress Joe!
> 
> With the walls visually closed in, it is starting to look more like a room! :T


Thanks Ryan - I was thinking the same exact thing!

I also think I am going to do Dri-Core - last thing I want to worry about is water damage. Plus, it will add more damping to the concrete floor......


----------



## raZorTT

Hey Joe,

Nice work with all the wall insulation and the QS! How long did you sit there playing with scenes and dimming the various zones? 3, 4 hours? 

Cheers,
Simon


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

OK, I may have a weak spot in my attempt at soundproofing (or as close as I can get) other than the door. It is these return air vent covers. The main issue is that it is the air return for the living room above and the cover closest to the camera covers that path.

I am not going to be able to put any R19 insulation in them or between them and the 1st layer (OSB). So, my layers are just going to be the OSB, GG, and drywall over that spot. Should I consider finding some thinner insulation and wrapping those, or should the OSB / GG / drywall be sufficient?


----------



## ALMFamily

raZorTT said:


> Hey Joe,
> 
> Nice work with all the wall insulation and the QS! How long did you sit there playing with scenes and dimming the various zones? 3, 4 hours?
> 
> Cheers,
> Simon


Thanks Simon! Unfortunately, no lights yet so I have not been able to play much at all beyond pushing the button to watch one desk light dim. :sad:


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

I decided to close up a bit of the door that leads to the sump / electrical panel to reduce one of my potential weak spots - I will just create a small access door - much like an access panel for a junction box in a ceiling. So, I framed off a 4' opening and filled the rest.

New "door"

As promised, I am going to go a bit more in depth on the ceiling and the steps taken for soundproofing.

When I first started looking at soundproofing, Ted at The SoundProofing Company gave me a suggestion to reduce the damping space for the ceiling as I expressed concerns about coming too low - I have 7.5 ft ceilings. You can read the details here - post #9 provides a drawing.

As an aside, if you are considering soundproofing, I highly recommend Ted and John at The SoundProofing Company - very knowledgeable and helpful. They also provide a number of PDFs outlining different techniques.

Tools I used:

Table Saw
2 Cordless drills - one with a drill bit and one with a screw bit
Level
The name escapes me at the moment - pic (square?)
Rubber Mallet

Materials:
3" screws
construction grade 2x4x8s

First step was to determine which joist runs needed to have the extra bracing. To allow some flexibility, I decided to put them in all joist runs @ 2.5 feet apart. I then measured out all of the cuts needed and jotted them down so I could cut them all at once.

The Stack!

Based on the drawing and associated measurements, the 2x4 piece needed to be 1 1/8" above the bottom of the joist so I used my square, set the depth, and marked off each position.

Marked and ready!

Then it was install them one by one. Some were a little snug so I used the rubber mallet to "coax" them into place. I then pre-drilled holes for the screws, started the screws, lined up the 2x4, and screwed the first one in. Once that was in, I set the level on, leveled it out and then tightened in the 2nd screw.

Once that side was up, I pre-drilled the holes on the opposite side, turned the level and tightened those 2 down once I had it level.

Finished Support

One thing to note - be sure to stagger the position so that you can screw them down or be prepared to toenail them in.

Supports up #1
Supports up #2

After that, it was time to run the R19 in the ceiling.

Insulation up #1
Insulation up #2

Next up - miscellaneous insulation stuffing in soffits and around flex duct.


----------



## Prof.

It worked out well Joe..:T
How thick is that insulation? Is there air space between the insulation and the ceiling?


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> It worked out well Joe..:T
> How thick is that insulation? Is there air space between the insulation and the ceiling?


If there is, it is minimal - most of my air dampening space will be between the OSB and insulation where the clip and hat channel are. I lost that space when I put the 3/8" insulation and drywall in between the joists to add mass to the floor above.

Is this going to cause me a transferrence issue?


----------



## Prof.

I wouldn't think so, but I'm no expert on this side of things..Others' more qualified might see it differently..


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> I wouldn't think so, but I'm no expert on this side of things..Others' more qualified might see it differently..


Yeah, I did not think so either when I did it, but I guess I will see when the walls are all up..... :bigsmile:


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Between last night and this morning, I finished off stuffing the last of the insulation.

So, since I was in the working mood , I started working on the AV closet. I figured I would start in this space and make my mistakes there since I will be able to hide them there. 

I was able to get the OSB up on 3 walls and sealed (with the Green Glue noiseproof sealant). The Whisper clips worked really well - the only thing I noticed is that I am used to a screw snugging itself up when you go into a stud - that did not happen with the hat channel. It took a bit of getting used to at first, but then I got the hang of it. I will post some pictures tomorrow. I need to do the ceiling in that room and then onto GG and drywall.

I then printed off the PDF I got from John at The Soundproofing Company for installing clips and channel on a wall and started putting a few of those in.

Next up - finish the AV closet ceiling and continue installing clips and channel in the main room.


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> So, since I was in the working mood , I started working on the AV closet.


LOL!..I know what you mean..You get one thing done and you get into the swing of things..and then you think "I'll start on this"! ..
I've got 4 separate aspects of the project going on at the moment..switching between each as I go along!


----------



## ALMFamily

LOL - understand completely! My biggest problem is my wife won't let me work past 8:30PM - so I spend the next couple hours on the computer shopping, reading the forums (which invariably leads to more shopping!). I needed to start the research for speakers because I was running out of things that I could do! :bigsmile:

How is the sanding coming along?


----------



## Prof.

Very slowly Joe..The wood filler I'm using takes 48hrs. to dry before sanding..so if I miss a spot (which I have several ) I've got to wait for that to dry again..
I thought I had filled everything, but it wasn't until I turned on the ropelight that I could still see gaps! :gah:
It's just as well I have all the time in the world to finish the job!!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

As promised, here are a couple photos from the AV closet.

Whisperclip

First row of hat channel installed

Hat channel completely installed

I started today on the walls in the main room. After doing the lowest run, I wised-up and made all my marks on a 2x4 so that I could go to each stud and mark the location for the clips on that stud - should make installing clips go much faster. While I was thinking of it, I ran my Cat6 for the desktop computer in the other room since I will be moving the modem and router into the AV closet. I also ran my speaker wire for zone 2 which will be located in my future workshop.

I also still need to finish the OSB layer on the ceiling in the AV closet.......


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Very slowly Joe..The wood filler I'm using takes 48hrs. to dry before sanding..so if I miss a spot (which I have several ) I've got to wait for that to dry again..
> I thought I had filled everything, but it wasn't until I turned on the ropelight that I could still see gaps! :gah:
> It's just as well I have all the time in the world to finish the job!!


The silver lining is it gives the arms and shoulders a bit of recuperation time! :T


----------



## HTip

You got a serious project on your hands. I've read most of your thread. Good progress so far. Well done!

I saw that you insulated the walls and ceiling. Be careful not to overdo it. The room might sound dead when you put carpets (are you?) and maybe curtains and stuff in. Has someone given you advise on acoustic treatment according to a measurement of the amount of echo in the room?

Is also saw in your Sketchup drawing (very nice by the way :T) that your screen hangs pretty high. Did I see correctly?

Keep up the good work!


----------



## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> You got a serious project on your hands. I've read most of your thread. Good progress so far. Well done!
> 
> I saw that you insulated the walls and ceiling. Be careful not to overdo it. The room might sound dead when you put carpets (are you?) and maybe curtains and stuff in. Has someone given you advise on acoustic treatment according to a measurement of the amount of echo in the room?
> 
> Is also saw in your Sketchup drawing (very nice by the way :T) that your screen hangs pretty high. Did I see correctly?
> 
> Keep up the good work!


Thanks for following along! I must admit - it has been fun learning things as I go along. 

As far as insulation goes, I made sure to not compact anything I put it - I merely laid it in there. Perhaps a good question for me to ask at this point is whether or not a soffit should be filled or if a certain amount of space should be left - probably a question I should ask Bryan at GIK.......

Hopefully, that does not deaden the room.  I will be putting carpeting in over Dri-Core. Beyond that, I plan to have some serious discussions with Bryan to help me out with treating the room accoustically. :bigsmile:

What is not shown in the sketch-up drawing are the soffits - they extend down from the ceiling 8-9 inches and the screen will start below that - I have not set a screen size yet. I am planning on shooting to a white wall for a while to get a better feel for where I will locate the screen and what size will work best for me.

Post-Edit - Actually, once the OSB / Drywall is up, I will be creating the false soffits. Those I will be lightly insulating to not over-deaden the room. I may try to use them as additional bass traps - hopefully that is something Bryan can point me in the right direction on....


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Hey Joe, nice progress!

A page back, you expressed concern about sound transference to the sheet metal duct work. If you remain concerned (and still have access to it), could you add mass to the steel? I'm not sure of your geometry constraints, but adding mass will greatly reduce the amplitude and frequency of any transferred vibration. You want it to remain decoupled from your ceiling material (i.e. leave an air gap).

I would expect low frequency vibrations to be the most problematic (if any are), so I do not think insulation will do any good.

Just some off the top of my head thoughts - no research - so take it with a grain of salt.

--Ryan


----------



## ALMFamily

NegativeEntropy said:


> Hey Joe, nice progress!
> 
> A page back, you expressed concern about sound transference to the sheet metal duct work. If you remain concerned (and still have access to it), could you add mass to the steel? I'm not sure of your geometry constraints, but adding mass will greatly reduce the amplitude and frequency of any transferred vibration. You want it to remain decoupled from your ceiling material (i.e. leave an air gap).
> 
> I would expect low frequency vibrations to be the most problematic (if any are), so I do not think insulation will do any good.
> 
> Just some off the top of my head thoughts - no research - so take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> --Ryan


Thanks Ryan!

I do actually still have access to it - and that is a really good idea! :T You are correct - LF is my biggest concern. I will have to think on the best way to incorporate that idea....... Cheers!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyacoust

Quick question - I have planned to put a stage in and fill it with sand and locate the L/C/R as well as both subs on the stage.

If I were to decide to forgo a stage and just locate the speakers on top of the concrete / dri-core / carpeting, what other considerations would I need to think about as in other things to install to keep the same / close to the same accoustical response as the sand-filled stage? 

I am thinking that if I lose the stage, I could potentially get the L/C/R towers all matching and still keep them below the bottom of the screen.........


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Joe,

First, I have no idea what a sand filled stage is (keep that in mind when reading my response). 

I just wanted to point out that you generally want the speaker tweeter height to be at "ear level". So, regardless of which route you go, keep this in mind. AFAIK, tower speakers are designed to be on the floor (that way the tweeter is at a standard ear level). Assuming your first row is not raised, you'd want the towers to be on the floor. If they're on a stage, make it of minimal height.

For the center, you may want to angle it up so the speakers are pointing at the ear level of the first row. I'd try it both flat and tilted. I'm planning some kind of shelf for my center, just below the screen.

--Ryan


----------



## Gregr

Hi joe,
I have a few thoughts and experience with spikes and 2" to 4" solid maple foundations. First off the spikes. 

You will find the better speaker companies like B&W, Focal and Dynaudio manufacture speakers with threaded inserts for spikes already installed, and each sell their respective version of appropriate spike for different sizes of speaker cabinet. This is a nice addition as spikes anchor the speaker in place and minimize vibrations that detract from speaker efficiency and sound quality. You can find a decent quality and a large variety of spikes for speakers on ebay between $24 and $40 for a set of 4 with padded discs to set under spike points to protect floors.

Second, if you go to Mapleshade dot com you will find lots of speaker tweak ideas that are becoming more popular. One idea I like in particular are maple foundations. Mapleshade sells 2" and 4" thick blocks of maple (what else) cut to a variety of sizes..., large enough to set beyond the speaker base by a few inches all around. I believe on some of the speaker companies you will audition speakers from will come with heavy bases especially on the higher priced models. Focal and B&W have put a lot of thought into their speaker cabinets and speaker stand bases/foundations. The base or foundations are a blend of three or more materials in polyester resin or two different types of wood and damping materials, etc, etc. all will accommodate spikes as well.

6mm and 8mm are popular size spike foot thread. I believe 8mm are used in the spikes for the larger cabinet sizes you will look at.

Be sure to ask for the Mapleshade catalog. 

Greg


----------



## ALMFamily

NegativeEntropy said:


> Joe,
> 
> First, I have no idea what a sand filled stage is (keep that in mind when reading my response).
> 
> I just wanted to point out that you generally want the speaker tweeter height to be at "ear level". So, regardless of which route you go, keep this in mind. AFAIK, tower speakers are designed to be on the floor (that way the tweeter is at a standard ear level). Assuming your first row is not raised, you'd want the towers to be on the floor. If they're on a stage, make it of minimal height.
> 
> For the center, you may want to angle it up so the speakers are pointing at the ear level of the first row. I'd try it both flat and tilted. I'm planning some kind of shelf for my center, just below the screen.
> 
> --Ryan


A sand-filled stage is a stage that is lined with plastic and then completely filled with sand - it is to make it extremely heavy and resistant to vibrations as most people locate their subs on the stage.

Excellent point - I had forgotten that it is important to ensure the tweeter was at ear level. I will be doing the same thing you are for the center channel dependent on the configuration (if it is a tower or not).



Gregr said:


> Hi joe,
> I have a few thoughts and experience with spikes and 2" to 4" solid maple foundations. First off the spikes.
> 
> You will find the better speaker companies like B&W, Focal and Dynaudio manufacture speakers with threaded inserts for spikes already installed, and each sell their respective version of appropriate spike for different sizes of speaker cabinet. This is a nice addition as spikes anchor the speaker in place and minimize vibrations that detract from speaker efficiency and sound quality. You can find a decent quality and a large variety of spikes for speakers on ebay between $24 and $40 for a set of 4 with padded discs to set under spike points to protect floors.
> 
> Second, if you go to Mapleshade dot com you will find lots of speaker tweak ideas that are becoming more popular. One idea I like in particular are maple foundations. Mapleshade sells 2" and 4" thick blocks of maple (what else) cut to a variety of sizes..., large enough to set beyond the speaker base by a few inches all around. I believe on some of the speaker companies you will audition speakers from will come with heavy bases especially on the higher priced models. Focal and B&W have put a lot of thought into their speaker cabinets and speaker stand bases/foundations. The base or foundations are a blend of three or more materials in polyester resin or two different types of wood and damping materials, etc, etc. all will accommodate spikes as well.
> 
> 6mm and 8mm are popular size spike foot thread. I believe 8mm are used in the spikes for the larger cabinet sizes you will look at.
> 
> Be sure to ask for the Mapleshade catalog.
> 
> Greg


Hey Gregr!

Thanks - I think between Ryan's reminder about tweeter height and your explanation on spikes and foundations - added Mapleshade to my favorites - has made me comfortable forgoing a stage and just doing carpet. Appreciate the info on spikes and speaker bases - will definitely keep that mind while I look for speakers.

Thank you both for the replies - great to see you are still following along! :bigsmile:


----------



## HTip

I agree with both Ryan and Greg on speaker placement on spikes and to align your tweeters on ear level. I use Soundcare SuperSpikes which have an excellent reach to completely level the speaker. This is important to vertically align the drivers and tweeter.

But that doesn't answer your question of what to do if you don't have the sand filled stage. It's a tough one, because of the various absorption figures of different materials. First of all sand is a great stabilizer used in speakers and speaker stands, but it creates a solid mass which is not favorable as absorber.

Materials with good absorption qualities are porous so that they are able to capture the energy produced in the room. For instance mineral wool or glass wool are great at that. I used those materials to fill up my stage. Furthermore the cover of the stage should be able to bend (like OSB), otherwise it will only reflect the sound. My front stage is constructed as to accomodate the center only and have the fronts stand on the ground. In my topic on the build you can see how I did it. Maybe that could work for you too.

Is it possible for you to place the sub somewhere else in the room? You could put an isolation platform (i.e. Auralex Gramma/SudDude) underneath which will stabilize your sub but also absorb all the energy from the cabinet.


----------



## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> I agree with both Ryan and Greg on speaker placement on spikes and to align your tweeters on ear level. I use Soundcare SuperSpikes which have an excellent reach to completely level the speaker. This is important to vertically align the drivers and tweeter.


Thanks! I checked out the Soundcare Spikes - unfortunately, the USA dealer's site is not available.... will have to check back in with them later to see if they are just having server issues.



HTip said:


> But that doesn't answer your question of what to do if you don't have the sand filled stage. It's a tough one, because of the various absorption figures of different materials. First of all sand is a great stabilizer used in speakers and speaker stands, but it creates a solid mass which is not favorable as absorber.
> 
> Materials with good absorption qualities are porous so that they are able to capture the energy produced in the room. For instance mineral wool or glass wool are great at that. I used those materials to fill up my stage. Furthermore the cover of the stage should be able to bend (like OSB), otherwise it will only reflect the sound. My front stage is constructed as to accomodate the center only and have the fronts stand on the ground. In my topic on the build you can see how I did it. Maybe that could work for you too.
> 
> Is it possible for you to place the sub somewhere else in the room? You could put an isolation platform (i.e. Auralex Gramma/SudDude) underneath which will stabilize your sub but also absorb all the energy from the cabinet.


I was not actually planning on using the front stage as an absorber - I was using the concept I saw in a couple other build threads to make it a solid mass in order to be able to locate the subs there without having a "big boombox" effect.

I have actually built in 4 different sub connection points (each point can be powered or passive) to future-proof for a 4 sub room (in essence, one in each corner) so I do have some flexibility as to where I can locate them. However, the 2 locations in the back of the room have smaller footprint limitations and my PB-13s are definitely not small. :bigsmile: Once I "complete" my room, I was going to try my hand at a DIY sonosub.

Sorry, I digress. :R So, due to the size of the 13s, I had planned to locate them along the front wall. I do like how you did your front stage - and adding the decor was a great touch! 

I have an idea / concept spinning through my head - I think I will try to use Sketch-Up to put a picture to it and see what you all think.......


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

And, I spent quite a lot of time in the HT yesterday. :yay2:

I spent a good portion of it installing WhisperClips - they are pretty easy to install once you locate where you are going to put them. Here is a pic of the screen wall with all clips installed:

Screen Wall with clips

All the clips are installed except on the ceiling.

Once I got to the area where the air return starts, I noticed that the edges were actually touching where the channel would hang. Unacceptable! Not only was the sheet metal touching, one slight push on it made a nice loud metallic thunk that you could hear quite clearly upstairs.

So, since the original HVAC person figured it was OK to use wood for the return (he enclosed 3 joist runs with only the opening steel), I decided to combine that with the idea Ryan had above. Here is the result:

Air Return 1
Air Return 2

Pretty basic - just used OSB to create the sides and bottom and made sure to recess it above the joist bottom. Once complete, I sealed the seams / gaps. Not pretty, but functional. :bigsmile:

Next up - finish the ceiling clips and finalize the dimensions of the soffits so I can place the clips for the channel that will support the soffits.


----------



## HTip

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks! I checked out the Soundcare Spikes - unfortunately, the USA dealer's site is not available.... will have to check back in with them later to see if they are just having server issues.


The one in Boston is online. Have you tried that one?



> I was not actually planning on using the front stage as an absorber - I was using the concept I saw in a couple other build threads to make it a solid mass in order to be able to locate the subs there without having a "big boombox" effect.


Than I misunderstood. Because you asked what you had to do to keep the same acoustical reponse.



> I have actually built in 4 different sub connection points (each point can be powered or passive) to future-proof for a 4 sub room (in essence, one in each corner) so I do have some flexibility as to where I can locate them. However, the 2 locations in the back of the room have smaller footprint limitations and my PB-13s are definitely not small. :bigsmile: Once I "complete" my room, I was going to try my hand at a DIY sonosub.


Good thinkin'. You never know where you might want to put your "little" subs ;D



> Sorry, I digress. :R So, due to the size of the 13s, I had planned to locate them along the front wall. I do like how you did your front stage - and adding the decor was a great touch!


Thanks. I also use the stage to hide the LS-cables.


----------



## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> The one in Boston is online. Have you tried that one?


No, I did not - I will give them a go - thanks!



HTip said:


> Than I misunderstood. Because you asked what you had to do to keep the same acoustical reponse.


Good point - I probably asked the wrong question. What I should probably have asked was what I would need to do to ensure I create the same "deadening" effect as a sand-filled stage. Apologies!



HTip said:


> Good thinkin'. You never know where you might want to put your "little" subs ;D


:bigsmile:



HTip said:


> Thanks. I also use the stage to hide the LS-cables.


A concern of mine as well - I have been working in Sketch-Up for the past couple hours trying to conceptualize what is running around my head...... :coocoo::coocoo:


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Here is what I came up with for the screen wall:

View attachment Screen Wall.skp


The color scheme is not accurate - I color coordinated as follows:

Red - corner bass traps
Grey - screen border
Pink - enclosure for subs

So, what I am thinking is that I only want the L/C/R visible so I would build a frame of 2x2s to enclose the subs and cover the entire enclosure with black GOM. Black GOM will be used for the lower side walls, etc (see HT room sketch-up at the top of page 13).

The bass traps would flush against the screen frame (or very close) and the screen frame would extend slightly past the beggining of the side wall soffits. 

The speakers would sit out in front of the sub enclosure and be equidistant from the main listening position.

Thoughts?


----------



## ALMFamily

Sorry - for those that don't have Sketch-Up installed:


----------



## Prof.

Joe..With that configuration, what would be the distance from the top of the screen to the ceiling?


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof - the soffits are roughly 13" wide but I am not sure if you mean to the screen frame or the screen itself though - I think I have seen screen frame dimensions either 2" or 3". So, I guess that means @15-16" to the screen itself.

If I go with a 92" screen, the screen width would be 36". That would put the bottom of the entire screen about 33" from the floor. The seats I have put my eye height at about 44". Using the 15% viewing angle suggestion I saw in a different thread, that would mean I would want the middle of the screen to be at about 50-51" from the floor. 

If I am spot on with all these measurements, I am real close to that viewing angle. This was the logic I tried to apply when I was laying the whole thing out.

Does this make sense or am I way off base?


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> Prof - the soffits are roughly 13" wide but I am not sure if you mean to the screen frame or the screen itself though - I think I have seen screen frame dimensions either 2" or 3". So, I guess that means @15-16" to the screen itself.


OK..That sounds fine..it's not too close to the ceiling, which was my concern..



> If I go with a 92" screen, the screen width would be 36". That would put the bottom of the entire screen about 33" from the floor. The seats I have put my eye height at about 44". Using the 15% viewing angle suggestion I saw in a different thread, that would mean I would want the middle of the screen to be at about 50-51" from the floor.


33" from the floor to the bottom of the screen is fairly high up..Mine is 20"!!.. but a slightly different set up to yours..

I know the recommended viewing height is a third up from the bottom and I used this principal for many years..but it never quite felt right! It always felt like I was a spectator, rather than a participator of the action on the screen..A bit like watching a big TV rather than a projection screen..

I had seen some of these massive screens that were almost down to the floor..both commercially (IMax in particular) and home theatre's..and that really made me feel part of the action!! :yikes: 

With the advent of my scope screen, I lowered the screen considerably and immediately got that participation feeling..

It is a personal thing I guess..I just prefer to have my eyes higher than a third of the way up..
Perhaps something to consider!


----------



## Gregr

Joe,

I believe you will find a formula for every type of human/machine interaction. the study and science of ergonomics has been in practice for many generations. The earliest ergonomic practitioners were set designers for theater isn't this ironic. In any case you will find somebody has designed and appointed a formula without background experience nor education in ergonomics, Physiatry and/or mechanics of any type. Mothers and fathers are probably the longest standing agronomists we can point to for the design and implementation of toys and tools (spoons) for infants since the beginning of time.

In any case, Joe In coming up with a working screen height I would consider three things. Your comfort when seated and when fully reclined without having to use more than one pillow and also the comfort of the people behind you and their ability to do the same. I believe if you take a few measurements in these positions you will find the bottom of the screen at eye level ( maybe a few inches lower at most) is just about right for everybody' comfort and health. And you will sit comfortably through the complete movie.

Keep in mind it is much easier to look up than look down across your nose to view a Tv. Some people are putting their Tv above the fire place mantels these days, That's a little much. Also remember how we have been looking up at movie screens in theaters since forever.

I don't think you will be comfortable with the numbers you just gave us.


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof - where do you locate your sub(s) and center channel? After reading the posts above I assumed that the center channel would need to be..... the mind is spinning as I type..... 

So, if your screen goes down to 20", do you tilt your center channel slightly upwards so that it is directly at your ear level? And, how tall is your sub?

I had hoped to hide the subs so my front screen wall does not look like one big speaker array, but I just may not be able to manage this. Those PB-13's are 22" tall so building an enslosure might dominate the screen wall anyway. I wish I had the space for a baffle wall / AT screen.......

I guess I will just have to finish roughing in the room, get the equipment and seats in there, and see how it looks and then go from there. I will just shoot to a white wall to get a feel for screen size from the first row and then determine how high the riser will need to be after I have a better idea where the screen will end up. 

It just does not mesh with my plan waaay ahead nature though. :bigsmile:

At this point, my head hurts. :bigsmile: Any suggestions are welcome at this point - I am somewhat stumped on how best to manage that front screen wall atm.


----------



## Gregr

Hey all,

I hope I didn't insult anybody with my last post. Prof you finished your last post as I wrote so I only saw your last post after I posted. And I like your idea of involvement with a little added height. I agree heartily nice observation.


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Joe,
> 
> I believe you will find a formula for every type of human/machine interaction. the study and science of ergonomics has been in practice for many generations. The earliest ergonomic practitioners were set designers for theater isn't this ironic. In any case you will find somebody has designed and appointed a formula without background experience nor education in ergonomics, Physiatry and/or mechanics of any type. Mothers and fathers are probably the longest standing agronomists we can point to for the design and implementation of toys and tools (spoons) for infants since the beginning of time.
> 
> In any case, Joe In coming up with a working screen height I would consider three things. Your comfort when seated and when fully reclined without having to use more than one pillow and also the comfort of the people behind you and their ability to do the same. I believe if you take a few measurements in these positions you will find the bottom of the screen at eye level ( maybe a few inches lower at most) is just about right for everybody' comfort and health. And you will sit comfortably through the complete movie.
> 
> Keep in mind it is much easier to look up than look down across your nose to view a Tv. Some people are putting their Tv above the fire place mantels these days, That's a little much. Also remember how we have been looking up at movie screens in theaters since forever.
> 
> I don't think you will be comfortable with the numbers you just gave us.


Sorry Greg, I missed your first post as I was composing the one above.



Gregr said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I hope I didn't insult anybody with my last post. Prof you finished your last post as I wrote so I only saw your last post after I posted. And I like your idea of involvement with a little added height. I agree heartily nice observation.


No worries by me mate. I think I will just have to plan on the no-plan approach - I also really want to capture the immersion effect. I will just have to do as I said above - finish doing what I am doing, see what it looks like with the stuff in, and go from there. Thanks for your help guys!! :T


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> Prof - where do you locate your sub(s) and center channel? After reading the posts above I assumed that the center channel would need to be..... the mind is spinning as I type.....
> 
> So, if your screen goes down to 20", do you tilt your center channel slightly upwards so that it is directly at your ear level? And, how tall is your sub?


Joe..You have to take into account that my set up is entirely different than yours is going to be..

I have a screen wall and a baffle wall..I'm using an AT scope screen with speakers (All 3 identical) mounted in the baffle wall behind the screen..
The tweeter height of all speakers is centred on the height of the screen..which works out about ear height for me..
The sub sits on a Subdude on the floor and with the screen being so close to the floor..only the driver and the ports are open to the environment..The main bulk of the sub is above the bottom of the screen..but you can't see it behind the screen..


> I had hoped to hide the subs so my front screen wall does not look like one big speaker array, but I just may not be able to manage this. Those PB-13's are 22" tall so building an enslosure might dominate the screen wall anyway. I wish I had the space for a baffle wall / AT screen.......


That would be ideal in your situation..The main bulk of the sub could be hidden behind the screen, which would enable you to lower the screen a little..



> I guess I will just have to finish roughing in the room, get the equipment and seats in there, and see how it looks and then go from there. I will just shoot to a white wall to get a feel for screen size from the first row and then determine how high the riser will need to be after I have a better idea where the screen will end up.


That is a very good idea..try a few things before deciding on screen size, screen height and seating position.. 

I


----------



## Prof.

Gregr said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I hope I didn't insult anybody with my last post. Prof you finished your last post as I wrote so I only saw your last post after I posted. And I like your idea of involvement with a little added height. I agree heartily nice observation.


:T


----------



## HTip

Good thinking Joe! If your screen is hung on the wall then it is fairly easy to change that, apart from speaker placement. If you integrate the screen into the wall (like I did) you have to be real careful where to put the screen.

I agree with Prof. that the 1/3-rule doesn't always apply. My screen is alse some 22" from the floor and I like that better than the 30" I had with my first screen. But I didn't have a choice, because of my low ceiling


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Hey Joe,

Pardon me if I missed an earlier discussion, but this paper/presentation from Harmon recommends using 2 subs at opposite midpoints of the room (i.e. center of front and back wall or center of side walls) as optimal for flattest overall room response with 2 subs (conclusions are on page 28, reams of data previous to that) for seating in the center or rear of the room.

In looking at the sketchup (linked on page 12 with my display preferences), it looks like you might have speaker locations already planned to be near there?

--Ryan


----------



## tonyvdb

Screen placement is always a hard one given you have to consider other factors like speaker placement and even how you plan to place your A/V rack.
In my case i hd no choice but to mount the screen a bit higher than I like because my A/V credenza had to be placed under the screen as well as my speakers. I chose to go with a 2,35:1 120"screen and that meant putting my mains under it as I dont have the room beside it. My screens bottom is 32" off the floor.


----------



## ALMFamily

NegativeEntropy said:


> Hey Joe,
> 
> Pardon me if I missed an earlier discussion, but this paper/presentation from Harmon recommends using 2 subs at opposite midpoints of the room (i.e. center of front and back wall or center of side walls) as optimal for flattest overall room response with 2 subs (conclusions are on page 28, reams of data previous to that) for seating in the center or rear of the room.
> 
> In looking at the sketchup (linked on page 12 with my display preferences), it looks like you might have speaker locations already planned to be near there?
> 
> --Ryan


I do Ryan. That was a paper that Bryan alluded to in a different thread I think - it was that thread that first gave me the idea to locate 4 sub connection points.

I put those 2 additional locations in the back to future proof the room for 4 subs and take advantage of either corner or side wall locations (would be hard on the one side wall considering how close the seating is to that side). 

I have a desire to do some DIY sub work once I have the room squared away, and thought those would be good locations for sonosubs. The PB-13s have such a big footprint that I do not think I can put them in the back of the room and maintain a proper walking space.

The option I do have open is to locate them in opposing corners (I think), but if I do that, it make putting bass traps in the corners a bit more difficult. 

I have a sneaking suspision that, as with the screen wall, the best laid plans will melt away once I have stuff in there. :bigsmile:


----------



## ALMFamily

tonyvdb said:


> Screen placement is always a hard one given you have to consider other factors like speaker placement and even how you plan to place your A/V rack.
> In my case i hd no choice but to mount the screen a bit higher than I like because my A/V credenza had to be placed under the screen as well as my speakers. I chose to go with a 2,35:1 120"screen and that meant putting my mains under it as I dont have the room beside it. My screens bottom is 32" off the floor.


Funny how I always seem to miss posts when I am typing up a reply...... Thanks for the reply Tony!

If I wanted to, I could probably put a larger screen across the front wall as well - I have 122" to play with. The biggest problem with that - I really like the look of a tower speaker and most I have seen are in the neighborhood of 40" tall. 

Are the tweeters on your speakers at ear height Tony?


----------



## ALMFamily

My goodness - just noticed it has been a while since my last update.

I will post an update tomorrow - it's late here. :bigsmile:


----------



## HTip

ALMFamily said:


> My goodness - just noticed it has been a while since my last update.
> 
> I will post an update tomorrow - it's late here. :bigsmile:


No worries. It's the same for me


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr ALMFamilyothrav

Well, it is a day late (wife was sick yesterday so I was on kid duty), but here goes!

The clips and hat channel are all done in the HT. I will be out tonight to pick up OSB and will more than likely be starting to hang the ceiling tomorrow (my neighbor offered to help - I think he wants tickets for free movies when all is done  ). Let's hope I installed them well! :bigsmile:

I decided to go with an in-line exhaust from (this one from Panasonic) to vent the AV closet into the laundry room. I have it all installed - I am just waiting for the mechanical thermostat (for cooling) I ordered through Amazon to finish wiring it up. I will post pictures tomorrow. While I was at it, I re-did some weird wiring in the laundry room so that I could have separate switches for the laundry room and workshop lighting. Last, I need to cut in the vent that will allow me to pull air from the laundry to cool the AV closet.

And, in good news - I sold my Bose Acoustimass 10 and Onkyo 604 using the proceeds toward the Sherwood 972 and Emp Tek CC. So, I will be setting up my living room system in the next couple weeks. For now, it will be 3.0 until I tackle a DIY sub or break down and get a Dayton. :bigsmile: I may add an outboard amplifier to power the L/R - GranteedEV made a great suggestion as he has a pair of the Emp Tek towers as well.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Apologies to all - I have not been as active the last couple of days as I have been spending most of my day in the HT.

As promised, here are a couple pics of the exhaust fan set-up:



















I tried to make sure to add a couple bends to allow for sound diffusion. Once I finish the laundry room, I will be adding a drop ceiling and the fan will be above it. I got the thermostat in today, so I will be tackling the installation of it and the return duct tomorrow.

A couple pictures of all the clips and hat channel installed:




















Once I had that done, I really was gung ho to get the first layer up. I decided to tackle the walls before the ceiling as my neighbor was not available until yesterday. Let me just say - lugging 4x8 sheets of 3/4" OSB from the garage downstairs and around a 180 degree turn solo is work for a much younger person. lddude:

However, here are a couple pics - these were taken yesterday:

Screen Wall










Screen wall and soffit










Today, I was able to get two more walls up. Hopefully, my neighbor is available tomorrow to help me with the soffit again - pretty much impossible to hold and screw an 8' sheet. :rofl2:


----------



## JBrax

Looking good Joe. I really want a dedicated theater room! Grrrr…


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks Jeff!

I had to stop last night - I could tell I was pretty spent when I was using my power planar to even out an edge and I was not paying attention to where the cord was........ let's just say I have a cord to fix. :rant:


----------



## raZorTT

Great job Joe!!! :T:T


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> I had to stop last night - I could tell I was pretty spent when I was using my power planar to even out an edge and I was not paying attention to where the cord was........ let's just say I have a cord to fix. :rant:


LOL!! I did the same thing with a circular saw once..I wondered where all the sparks were coming from!! :rofl:
Thank goodness for double insulated power tools! 

The set up is looking good Joe..I don't think you're going to hear much noise if any, with the inline unit in that position..


----------



## engtaz

Looks like it's coming along really nice. Thanks for sharing the your build with us.


----------



## ALMFamily

raZorTT said:


> Great job Joe!!! :T:T





Prof. said:


> LOL!! I did the same thing with a circular saw once..I wondered where all the sparks were coming from!! :rofl:
> Thank goodness for double insulated power tools!
> 
> The set up is looking good Joe..I don't think you're going to hear much noise if any, with the inline unit in that position..





engtaz said:


> Looks like it's coming along really nice. Thanks for sharing the your build with us.



Thanks guys! Oh, and I fixed the cord. :R


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyspeak

Need a little input - I am trying to decide the best place to locate my rear surrounds.

Here is a picture of the back wall:










The opening on the left is the entrance. The start of the wall is right about where the middle seat is in each row of 3. If I put the rears 4' apart, the right one will end up outside of where the right-most seat is located which does not seem like a good placement to me.

I am contemplating mounting them about 1' (2' at best) apart on that back wall. Will that cause issues for me? Would I need to consider something other than direct-firing rears?

I guess another alternative would be to use my rear satellite locations as locations for the rear surrounds, but those are located on each wall and it seems to be bad placement as well.

I do have potential front height spots, but I have not finalized their exact placement yet and I would prefer a more traditional rear surround location (at least initially).

Thoughts?

Edit - if it helps, I can take a more current picture as that wall is now covered with the OSB layer.


----------



## ALMFamily

Oh, and I have some extra WhisperClips if anyone is planning on sound isolation anytime soon......


----------



## tonyvdb

Thats a tough call on the rear speakers, 2' apart is not ideal but it will work. another option is going with only one rear speaker so a 6.1 system?


----------



## ALMFamily

Tony, 

Doesn't THX show them mounted side by side? I never thought I would do that, but there must be some reason they suggest it. Perhaps this is only with THX certified surrounds?

Oh, and how does one become an "elite shackster"? :devil:


----------



## tonyvdb

Side by side is an odd setup given the rears are theoretically stereo. Ive never understood the THX diagram having them together like that. 2' apart will work.

elite shackster I think is just by post count I guess. Ive been on here since 2007 hard to believe that.


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks Tony - I will have to see if I can get that 2'. Although, am I going to experience issues if the rears are not symmetrical on the main listening position? One would be behind it and the other would be more behind the right hand seat.

Which leads me to another question - how do people get 4" of fiberglass on the back wall for acoustics and mount speakers there?


----------



## tonyvdb

If the rears are not centered its not a huge deal, Audyssey can compensate for some regularities and the rears are more for the people in the back rows anyhow not so much for the front.

I think most people use panels of insulation not so much the entire wall.


----------



## ALMFamily

OK, thanks!


----------



## HTip

Looking good Joe! You made some good progress.

THX had a standard called A.S.A. which stands for Advanced Speaker Array. To you this your receiver needs to support this (THX-Ultra2 certified). In my receiver (Marantz SR9600) I can choose between TOGETHER (<12"), CLOSE (12-48") and APART (>48").


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Impressive progress Joe! I like how you handled the exhaust duct.

OSB mounting: you could rent a drywall lift for the safest 1 or 2 person approach to ceiling mounting. another option (less safe) is a DIY "T" brace made out of 2x4 or 2x6 used to brace one end while the other end is supported with one's head/shoulders, then drive a few screws. I'd recommend the drywall lift.

Regarding the rear speaker placement: see Dolby's website for a refresher of the official recommendations for 5.1 rear placement. Ideally they are 90-110 degrees (i.e. in line to 20 degrees behind) from the "main" seating position. They should also be at ear level or elevated, aiming directly at the ears of the main seat.

Remember that by definition, in a best case scenario, there is only 1 seat in the house that is equidistant from the rear surrounds or the left/right main. In setting up your receiver (running Audyssey), it will set the speaker distance from wherever you place the microphone, so in terms of when the sound arrives, it's just fine if the speakers are not physically equally distant from the main seat, the receiver will delay the signal to each speaker as needed so that it arrives as though the speakers were symmetrically placed.

Every room is a compromise. The only way to have a mostly symmetrical speaker layout is to have the seats in a relatively small central rectangle (with an equally spaced gap on all sides). Since that was not possible in your theater, it will not be "perfect".

I would try mounting them in one of two locations: 
1) the upper rear "corners" of the room (one will be on the wall nearest the entrance, the other in the opposite corner) and aim them at or just behind the main seat. That will give you the most smooth overall dispersion. This assumes direct radiators, not something like bipoles.
2) Where you show them in the jpg from your shetchup on page 12, in between the two rows of seats. This places them just behind the main seat and just in front of the 2nd row - a reasonable compromise. 

--Ryan


----------



## PTAaron

Finally finished reading through... Great thread with a ton of great information!
You've made awesome progress an I can't wait to see the finished product. 

For the rear speakers: I was also thinking that rear corners would work, or depending on the size of then - could they mount on your soffit on the rear facing toward the screen? I have mine mounted above my doors in the back of the room - the speakers I have are fairly small and most people seem to say they are the least important. 

As far as bipole/dipole/direct - what I have read suggests bipole for surrounds and direct for the rears. As a side note typing bipole on an iPhone causes the iPhone to autocorrect to "nipple" - which doesn't have quite the same meaning.


----------



## Gregr

Hi Again Joe,

Dolby also has a recommended setup for TrueHD and DTSHD. I sense these profiles are closer to what you are hoping to accomplish. 

Dolby THX HD recommends a 60 degree angle from the listener seat for speaker separation of rear surrounds.

I'll bet you will be close to a 6' to 7' separation. Now, because you are so close to old school numbers I would experiment..., briefly.

Plug the rears into the front L/R on the amp and play a little music. With the speakers separated between 60 degrees and/or 7' move the speakers further or closer a few inches at a time until the speakers disappear and/or an aural soundstage develops.

Of course this works because the front speakers are similar or identical to the fronts.

Greg


----------



## Gregr

Oh,

The rears look as though they fire directly into the room (no toe in). Again, I would experiment with toe in. I would aim the left rear to the left of center and right to the ____.

Here's the link: http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/

What did you decided on for speakers? I got the subs but have not read mention of mains and/or surrounds


----------



## Gregr

Also,

Don't forget to make your changes in the Pre/AVR THX rears to "Apart" more than 48".


----------



## ALMFamily

Sorry to not have responded sooner - been really going to it the last few days as you will see soon!



HTip said:


> Looking good Joe! You made some good progress.
> 
> THX had a standard called A.S.A. which stands for Advanced Speaker Array. To you this your receiver needs to support this (THX-Ultra2 certified). In my receiver (Marantz SR9600) I can choose between TOGETHER (<12"), CLOSE (12-48") and APART (>48").


Thanks Htip! I believe my 809 is THX certified, I will need to double check. Thanks for the info!



NegativeEntropy said:


> Impressive progress Joe! I like how you handled the exhaust duct.


:bigsmile:


NegativeEntropy said:


> OSB mounting: you could rent a drywall lift for the safest 1 or 2 person approach to ceiling mounting. another option (less safe) is a DIY "T" brace made out of 2x4 or 2x6 used to brace one end while the other end is supported with one's head/shoulders, then drive a few screws. I'd recommend the drywall lift.


Too late - it's all done! :rofl2: I did use the DIY method - worked like a charm! :T



NegativeEntropy said:


> Regarding the rear speaker placement: see Dolby's website for a refresher of the official recommendations for 5.1 rear placement. Ideally they are 90-110 degrees (i.e. in line to 20 degrees behind) from the "main" seating position. They should also be at ear level or elevated, aiming directly at the ears of the main seat.
> 
> Remember that by definition, in a best case scenario, there is only 1 seat in the house that is equidistant from the rear surrounds or the left/right main. In setting up your receiver (running Audyssey), it will set the speaker distance from wherever you place the microphone, so in terms of when the sound arrives, it's just fine if the speakers are not physically equally distant from the main seat, the receiver will delay the signal to each speaker as needed so that it arrives as though the speakers were symmetrically placed.
> 
> Every room is a compromise. The only way to have a mostly symmetrical speaker layout is to have the seats in a relatively small central rectangle (with an equally spaced gap on all sides). Since that was not possible in your theater, it will not be "perfect".
> 
> I would try mounting them in one of two locations:
> 1) the upper rear "corners" of the room (one will be on the wall nearest the entrance, the other in the opposite corner) and aim them at or just behind the main seat. That will give you the most smooth overall dispersion. This assumes direct radiators, not something like bipoles.
> 2) Where you show them in the jpg from your shetchup on page 12, in between the two rows of seats. This places them just behind the main seat and just in front of the 2nd row - a reasonable compromise.
> 
> --Ryan


Thanks Ryan for the info and suggestions - I decided to go with option 1 for the most part - I will be mounting them from the soffit and putting them at roughly the 20 degree points you mentioned.




PTAaron said:


> Finally finished reading through... Great thread with a ton of great information!
> You've made awesome progress an I can't wait to see the finished product.
> 
> For the rear speakers: I was also thinking that rear corners would work, or depending on the size of then - could they mount on your soffit on the rear facing toward the screen? I have mine mounted above my doors in the back of the room - the speakers I have are fairly small and most people seem to say they are the least important.
> 
> As far as bipole/dipole/direct - what I have read suggests bipole for surrounds and direct for the rears. As a side note typing bipole on an iPhone causes the iPhone to autocorrect to "nipple" - which doesn't have quite the same meaning.


Thanks for reading my thread Aaron! I did decide to go real close to your suggestions for mounting points - thanks! Oh, and I am off to use my iPhone real quick....... :devil:



Gregr said:


> Hi Again Joe,
> 
> Dolby also has a recommended setup for TrueHD and DTSHD. I sense these profiles are closer to what you are hoping to accomplish.
> 
> Dolby THX HD recommends a 60 degree angle from the listener seat for speaker separation of rear surrounds.
> 
> I'll bet you will be close to a 6' to 7' separation. Now, because you are so close to old school numbers I would experiment..., briefly.
> 
> Plug the rears into the front L/R on the amp and play a little music. With the speakers separated between 60 degrees and/or 7' move the speakers further or closer a few inches at a time until the speakers disappear and/or an aural soundstage develops.
> 
> Of course this works because the front speakers are similar or identical to the fronts.
> 
> Greg





Gregr said:


> Oh,
> 
> The rears look as though they fire directly into the room (no toe in). Again, I would experiment with toe in. I would aim the left rear to the left of center and right to the ____.
> 
> Here's the link: http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/
> 
> What did you decided on for speakers? I got the subs but have not read mention of mains and/or surrounds





Gregr said:


> Also,
> 
> Don't forget to make your changes in the Pre/AVR THX rears to "Apart" more than 48".


Thanks for all the info Greg! You are correct - they will be roughly 6 feet apart. Thanks for the heads up on the THX setting! I have not settled on speakers yet - I am planning several trips in the near future to listen to as many speakers as I can - you can follow along if you wish - I made a thread which is in my sig.

Construction update forthcoming!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

It was a grueling few days, but the first layer is complete! Since I know everyone loves pics..... 

Wall to left of entrance - you can see the in line exhuast fan connection at the top, the outlet for the theater marque sign, and the air return at the bottom:











Here are a few shots of the AV closet. You can see the mechanical thermostat and exhaust fan vent in pic #2. The 3rd pic shows the return - I decided to use an air diffuser as the vent cover since it has the ability to allow me to change the depth of the opening. I thought it would also not allow a direct path for sound to escape thus breaking up the high / mid frequencies - we shall see. I may still have to build a muffler....





























Here is the screen wall:










The right front wall:










The right back wall and entrance:










The entrance and back wall:










The back left wall:










The front left wall:











I also completed wiring the thermostat and in line exhaust fan - happy to report they work well. The fan really is whisper quiet - the only way I knew it was running was to put my hand in the vent to feel the air pull. I also got all the outlets and joints sealed using the noiseproof sealant.

Next up - sheet rocking to begin!


----------



## PTAaron

Looks great! You got a lot of work done!


----------



## TypeA

Thanks for taking the time, yes pics are greatly appreciated! Lookin good Joe


----------



## ALMFamily

PTAaron said:


> Looks great! You got a lot of work done!





TypeA said:


> Thanks for taking the time, yes pics are greatly appreciated! Lookin good Joe


Thanks guys! I am procrastinating starting the sheetrock today - at 70lbs a sheet, that is going to be back-breaking work solo..... :sweat:


----------



## PTAaron

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks guys! I am procrastinating starting the sheetrock today - at 70lbs a sheet, that is going to be back-breaking work solo..... :sweat:


Wow.... That is going to be one of a workout!!


----------



## kadijk

Maybe you need to rent a drywall lift...I boarded my whole basement by myself with one...they work for ceilings and upper walls


----------



## ALMFamily

I bought a drywall carrier for $6 - it made it a lot easier carrying sheets in the house. Once I get to doing the ceiling, I am definitely going for a lift.


----------



## Gregr

Yeah,

The OSB is a nice addition to the sound control formula. Now, as you put up sheetrock do you add a bead of "Green Goop" all around in attempting to establish "no or minimal" contact between the OSB and sheetrock. This seems doable but how is it done? Will you apply the green stuff then give it 30seconds to firm up a little. 

Yeah, you definately need a lift!!!!!

Hey Joe, you know, you do not need to answer my questions or comments as soon as I write them (for sure). I know eventually your gonna cover each point I am curious about anyway. I just wannna get my questions out there before I forget.

You are doing a great job. I'm glad I took a few minutes in the beginning to figure out if this project was worth my time. I had the feeling immediately that I could learn a thing or two here. I'm glad I hung around, you've done a of a job putting this all together. I'm getting a little anxious to see Brian Pape's finishing sound controls.

Sorry for the long note. 

Oh, after seeing what you've chosen for subs..., I think I just might hang on for the speaker reveal. The ultra's are impressive and SVS give them an added port adjustment plug/damp according to room size. Isn't science fun????

Sorry, Thanks


----------



## Prof.

Glad to hear the thermostat and inline exhaust work well Joe..Well done..:T


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Yeah,
> 
> The OSB is a nice addition to the sound control formula. Now, as you put up sheetrock do you add a bead of "Green Goop" all around in attempting to establish "no or minimal" contact between the OSB and sheetrock. This seems doable but how is it done? Will you apply the green stuff then give it 30seconds to firm up a little.


Greg - I am using Green Glue. My method for putting it on so far - I used it on the rock between my ceiling joists and now again today on the couple sheets I did - has been to get the sheet in place, make sure it fits exactly as I want, and then pull it back down. I lay it out on the floor and goop it up - I have been using about 1.5 tubes to a 4x8 sheet. Once you have it on, you can put it up right away - the instructions say to make sure you have it up in 15 minutes or less. 



Gregr said:


> Yeah, you definately need a lift!!!!!


Oh man - don't I know it. That stuff is HEAVY! :flex:



Gregr said:


> Hey Joe, you know, you do not need to answer my questions or comments as soon as I write them (for sure). I know eventually your gonna cover each point I am curious about anyway. I just wannna get my questions out there before I forget.


No worries Greg - for me, I so much appreciate all you guys following along and helping as I go along that it is the least I can do to respond back as quick as I can.



Gregr said:


> You are doing a great job. I'm glad I took a few minutes in the beginning to figure out if this project was worth my time. I had the feeling immediately that I could learn a thing or two here. I'm glad I hung around, you've done a of a job putting this all together. I'm getting a little anxious to see Brian Pape's finishing sound controls.
> 
> Sorry for the long note.
> 
> Oh, after seeing what you've chosen for subs..., I think I just might hang on for the speaker reveal. The ultra's are impressive and SVS give them an added port adjustment plug/damp according to room size. Isn't science fun????
> 
> Sorry, Thanks


Thanks Greg! And, it sure is. I have not played with the port plugs yet - that is for when the room is done and I can relax and just tinker. :bigsmile:



Prof. said:


> Glad to hear the thermostat and inline exhaust work well Joe..Well done..:T


Thanks Prof! I am anxiously awaiting your next update - how is it coming along?

Oh, and I took a day off (somewhat) - I only put up 2 sheets of drywall today. :bigsmile:


----------



## NegativeEntropy

Hey Joe! I sound like a broken record, but again, very nice progress. I'll echo others as well and say that I recognize how much extra work it is to document and share your progress/results as you have done and that I appreciate it. 

I certainly consider it more than a fair trade as an information exchange, especially considering the nature of a web forum ensures some of the advice will be redundant to things you already know (i.e. we posters are ignorant of much of the research you have already done).


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks Prof! I am anxiously awaiting your next update - how is it coming along?
> 
> Oh, and I took a day off (somewhat) - I only put up 2 sheets of drywall today. :bigsmile:


I just finished painting one wall yesterday..
Wow!!..what a difference!! I thought my wall were dark before, but this blue is something else!! I think it's going to make the room more of a bat cave!! :bigsmile:

I should have some more photos up tomorrow..


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

I just noticed it has been a while since my last update so here goes!

The drywall is now completely done. It took me a bit as I did most of the work myself - except for the ceiling which I had the help of a couple friends and we knocked it out in one night.

Pictures of drywall seem like they would be boring, but here you go 

Screen Wall:










Right Front










Right Back










Back Wall










Left Back










Left Front










Ceiling










AV Closet











I already got the first layer of mud and tape up - just waiting for it to completely dry so I can start sanding and apply the second layer.


----------



## PTAaron

Looking good!


----------



## Prof.

That is some nice progress there Joe..and well done on the drywalling! :T
When you see blank walls all around the room..you know that you're well and truly on the way to having a theatre!


----------



## HTip

You got some great DIY skills! Putting up dry wall is not easy, but you did it :T

Do you have a time frame for the build or do you just take one day at a time?


----------



## raZorTT

nice job Joe. Are you going to plaster yourself?


----------



## bpape

Getting closer!


----------



## ALMFamily

PTAaron said:


> Looking good!





Prof. said:


> That is some nice progress there Joe..and well done on the drywalling! :T
> When you see blank walls all around the room..you know that you're well and truly on the way to having a theatre!





HTip said:


> You got some great DIY skills! Putting up dry wall is not easy, but you did it :T
> 
> Do you have a time frame for the build or do you just take one day at a time?


Thanks guys! When I got the drywall up, stepped back, and looked, it was the first time I could get a real sense of how the room would look. It was quite an enjoyable moment. And, I do not have a time frame - I try to make sure I do at least something in the room everyday so I feel like I am moving forward. My wife keeps asking me when it will be done - I keep telling her 2 years and I get this look :unbelievable:. 



raZorTT said:


> nice job Joe. Are you going to plaster yourself?


Funny story - this is the first time I have done drywall and mudding/taping. When I finished mudding the ceiling, I had to stop for a few minutes to scrap the mud off of me - I need more practice! :bigsmile:

Of course, as I am mudding and taping, the thought hits me that none of this will be seen. I really like how you did your walls with the panels and the acoustic treatment located behind some of it. If I were to do something similar, I would be covering all the results of the mudding and taping anyway. 



bpape said:


> Getting closer!


You should get a kick out of this Bryan - after the drywall was up, I closed the door on the dryer in the other room and could hear it echoing in the HT. First thought that runs through my head - _Oh man, I sure hope Bryan can help me tame THAT!_ :rofl2:

On a serious note, I should probably start to get my gear together and learn REW so I can provide real data to our acoustical discussions........


----------



## bpape

and we need to see why you don't have the isolation you want in the HT from that dryer room.

Bryan


----------



## ALMFamily

Oh, I can answer that one easy enough - there is no door! :bigsmile:


----------



## bpape

LOL. Well that was easy enough.....

Bryan


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Finished sanding the first layer of mud / tape - my goodness, the sheer amount of dust that stuff creates is amazing. I will be busy cleaning it out of places I never knew existed for a millenia.

Note - make sure to wear a mask and glasses. I forgot to put them on and have been blowing white goo from my nose ever since....... :rolleyesno:


----------



## raZorTT

Yeah plaster dust is good stuff! It gets everywhere!! sanding the ceiling is the worst!


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> ALMFamilyconstr
> 
> Finished sanding the first layer of mud / tape - my goodness, the sheer amount of dust that stuff creates is amazing. I will be busy cleaning it out of places I never knew existed for a millenia.
> 
> Note - make sure to wear a mask and glasses. I forgot to put them on and have been blowing white goo from my nose ever since....... :rolleyesno:


Wow!! you didn't wear a mask or glasses!! I think if I was doing that sort of sanding I would just about be wearing a full bio-hazard suit!! :rofl2:


----------



## PTAaron

I did just a few patches of plaster and as shocked at the dust - I can't imagine what your room looked like after!


----------



## ALMFamily

I checked the mirror when I was done - I swear I looked just like the Stay Puff Marshmellow Man.........:bigsmile:

Finished sanding - second layer to commence tomorrow!


----------



## PTAaron

ALMFamily said:


> I checked the mirror when I was done - I swear I looked just like the Stay Puff Marshmellow Man.........:bigsmile:
> 
> Finished sanding - second layer to commence tomorrow!


Nice! :T
You didn't split your pants did you?


----------



## ALMFamily

PTAaron said:


> Nice! :T
> You didn't split your pants did you?


HAHAHHAHAH!!! Oh man - now that is funny! My wife is wondering what I am in giggle-fits about! I should have taken a picture of them though - they started out as blue jeans and ended up quite white.


----------



## Gregr

Joe you really should take some precautions with the dust. A plastic sheet duct taped to door jams to close off the future theater from the upstairs while sanding and working..., now that dust is in the equation is just not enough. At some point in the future you will find joint compound dust in the craziest places like the attic crawl space, even if you have taken every precaution.

Anyway put up several plastic sheet closures to isolate the theater. Vacuum daily even if you do not sand and make sure to get into every corner. Don't wait for the dust to start showing upstairs. Give the upstairs a good vacuuming every few days or so. But even with all of this due diligence your wife will be complaining about joint compound dust for a few months. If you wait until the end to do that really heavy cleaning the dust will have worked itself deeply into every crevice and carpeting, closet and all the other places you do not want dust. 

Anybody who has done any remodeling can attest to what I am saying. Hopefully your kids are not sensitive to the dust. However, if the dust gets too heavy it may become a health concern.

But on the plus side it is only one room. Ideally the second and third maybe a fourth coat in some places should only be a light coat. The idea is to make the sheetrock wall flat. So that with a light at the other end of the wall and 4'to6' away from the wall and with you standing a few feet from the wall you should see a flat surface. No ripples or rolls etc. just flat. I'll bet you'll have some bulges, most people do even some experienced amateurs do.

light coats and feather the joint wider to deceive the eye. The wider the joint the more gradual the rise and fade of build up of compound over the joint. 

You have truly done a of a job in your homework/research. The materials you've chosen has been an education for me. I believe you've maxed the science and today's technology in putting together a room where the components of the theater work to control sound. First to contain a considerable portion of sound hopefully enough to play movies at real world levels while others sleep (maybe not that extreme) anyway more to come yet in that area. But I believe many will agree you have done a tremendous job of keeping us informed/involved. 

I haven't finished reading the speaker thread yet. Wow another great study and fully documented. Its 2:30am and I am definately rambling on. Every time I come to HTS lately I try to answer a question for somebody but I end up wrapped up in your build and one hundred other projects and never get to new posts. This has been a great project to follow. I have learned much and enjoyed all of this incredibly, thanks. I am looking forward to you and Bryan applying some fine tuning Tx's

Yeah Man!


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Joe you really should take some precautions with the dust. A plastic sheet duct taped to door jams to close off the future theater from the upstairs while sanding and working..., now that dust is in the equation is just not enough. At some point in the future you will find joint compound dust in the craziest places like the attic crawl space, even if you have taken every precaution.
> 
> Anyway put up several plastic sheet closures to isolate the theater. Vacuum daily even if you do not sand and make sure to get into every corner. Don't wait for the dust to start showing upstairs. Give the upstairs a good vacuuming every few days or so. But even with all of this due diligence your wife will be complaining about joint compound dust for a few months. If you wait until the end to do that really heavy cleaning the dust will have worked itself deeply into every crevice and carpeting, closet and all the other places you do not want dust.
> 
> Anybody who has done any remodeling can attest to what I am saying. Hopefully your kids are not sensitive to the dust. However, if the dust gets too heavy it may become a health concern.
> 
> But on the plus side it is only one room. Ideally the second and third maybe a fourth coat in some places should only be a light coat. The idea is to make the sheetrock wall flat. So that with a light at the other end of the wall and 4'to6' away from the wall and with you standing a few feet from the wall you should see a flat surface. No ripples or rolls etc. just flat. I'll bet you'll have some bulges, most people do even some experienced amateurs do.
> 
> light coats and feather the joint wider to deceive the eye. The wider the joint the more gradual the rise and fade of build up of compound over the joint.
> 
> You have truly done a of a job in your homework/research. The materials you've chosen has been an education for me. I believe you've maxed the science and today's technology in putting together a room where the components of the theater work to control sound. First to contain a considerable portion of sound hopefully enough to play movies at real world levels while others sleep (maybe not that extreme) anyway more to come yet in that area. But I believe many will agree you have done a tremendous job of keeping us informed/involved.
> 
> I haven't finished reading the speaker thread yet. Wow another great study and fully documented. Its 2:30am and I am definately rambling on. Every time I come to HTS lately I try to answer a question for somebody but I end up wrapped up in your build and one hundred other projects and never get to new posts. This has been a great project to follow. I have learned much and enjoyed all of this incredibly, thanks. I am looking forward to you and Bryan applying some fine tuning Tx's
> 
> Yeah Man!


Spot on as usual Greg - after starting thee sanding process and seeing all the dust in the air, I stapled a plastic sheet over the door opening to contain the dust as much as possible. Even with that short period of time, I noticed a light white dusting on the washer and dryer in the next room!

Great suggestion - as soon as I finished this, back down I go to run the shop vac in the room again. Fortunately for me, my wife does very little cleaning - it's all me (that stay at home dad thing) so she sees little of the mess I make. :bigsmile:

I am glad you pointed of the idea of feathering it out wider - this is what I was thinking would be the best way for me as a beginner to make a better joint. As I said earlier, most if not all of the walls will be covered anyway, but this is good practice for when I finish the workshop and laundry room - plus, I just know if I do not do it properly, it will bug me as I sit and watch a movie. 

I am glad that you are getting something from reading through this process - that is exactly what I was hoping when I decided to try to document everything as much as I could. Plus, with all the help you all have given me to this point, I was just hoping that providing all the details could help others the way you guys have helped me. Thanks!! :T


----------



## PTAaron

Just a tip that I picked up from my wall patching experience in the past 2 weeks - be sure to double check the parts you worked on last... I thought I had done a great job on sanding down my patches - the first 3/4 of them turned out great and you can't really tell where they are... the last couple are definitely noticeable - I think I even missed one of them. When I did my "double check" I missed it too... wish I had gone back one more time to make sure. 
Luckily for me the worst spot will end up behind either a movie poster or acoustic panel.


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks for the tip Aaron!

I think what I will do is have my neighbor come over and look - he is so meticulous that if I miss something, he is sure to catch it for me.


----------



## PTAaron

Good idea - I should have done something like that - my spot isn't noticeable unless you are looking for it... and definitely not visible with the room lighted for movie viewing, but it is going to bother me since I know it is there! :foottap:


----------



## Gregr

I have another tip or two for you Joe and Aron and everyone ever reading this thread. This one only comes from many years of building construction. Actually two observations, first " A good carpenter can hide 99% his and natures mistakes." The second observation is, you are the only one who is aware of your mistake or whatever else you might want to call it. Even if you cannot make a mistake look like it belongs for most people this may catch their attention but not their awareness of it being your secret nightmare. 

For the most part you can always change what you do not like. Eventually you will figure out what to do with a problem or "Mistake" like the one you've already fixed. But you really do need to worry and wonder that's how we know you are doing a good job..., down to the last detail. Ha! Ha!! I just had to throw that last one in there. But it is kinda true don't you think. I mean if you aren't fretting about a quirk then you are either you are very talented and you have none or you just don't care. At least now we know you do care.


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## ALMFamily

Right you are. I remember when I tiled my floors. It was the first time I had ever tiled, so I had some spots that did not fit exactly as I had planned and I had to "fanagle" them a bit.

Everyone that looked at it said how good they looked and no one ever saw the flaws - until I pointed them out. :bigsmile: I just need to try to remember not to fret about the mistakes so much that it halts progress!


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## PTAaron

Very true...
My plan in my space is just to TRY not to point out the flaws 
By nature we are so much more critical of ourselves - kind of like visiting friends and hearing "sorry the place is so messy" when their house is spotless!


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## HTip

I once moved something in the room and hit the ceiling. It was mildly damaged and I restored it with glue and some paint and everytime I walked in my eye wondered off to that damaged tile. No one but me noticed it 

It only proves that we care to do the best job possible :T


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## Gregr

Yeah, Yeah and Yeah!!! Isn't there something we can do for that..., counseling or something? Ha, just kidding I'm sure most people think in this way.

I have a friend who paints, I mean he is an artist and when he makes a mistake he calls them a happy slip..., (a happy something) or a happy mistake. He says some of his mistakes have led to some of his best paintings. Here's another tip, what my friend calls a mistake is still a work of art to me. 

I don't mean to go on and on about this mistake thing but I had to say these things - these are the type of things I like to think about.

Greg


----------



## ALMFamily

Nah no worries Greg - it is good to remember that even if we make small slips here and there, the end result can still be a masterpiece - I have to look no further than some of the builds from the people following this thread - every single one is a fantastic looking space and I am sure each and everyone of the individuals has a few "slips" along the way.


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> Right you are. I remember when I tiled my floors. It was the first time I had ever tiled, so I had some spots that did not fit exactly as I had planned and I had to "fanagle" them a bit.
> 
> Everyone that looked at it said how good they looked and no one ever saw the flaws - until I pointed them out. :bigsmile:


That's my problem also..For some reason I always point out my mistakes!! I must stop doing that :rofl2:


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## Gregr

You know sometimes holding onto your piece until the end when everybody has had a chance to respond, react or just say their piece is the most difficult part of the work. But just being quiet and enjoying the Oooh's and aaah's and/or a Wow or "Thank You" can feel awkward, cause you've got a lot to say..., right. I just want to let it out. "Well, its not that great." Or something else that helps everybody through that awkward moment. But if you can wait and just listen and if you listen until everybody has had their chance to say something well then you can just thank everybody for what they've said..., that is all.

Its a suggestion but let them have their moment then take yours you deserve it. You probably all have done this in your own way..., its been too long since my last "thank you".


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

2nd layer of mud is done and I have been sanding the last couple days. Unfortunately (for my HT progress anyway), we are leaving to take the kids to Niagara Falls tomorrow and I won't be back until Saturday. You all take care and I hope you can all survive without the ol' ALMFamily updates!


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## TypeA

Have a great trip


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## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> You all take care and I hope you can all survive without the ol' ALMFamily updates!


OH no!..You realise that I will have withdrawal symptoms!! :bigsmile:


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## PTAaron

Have a great trip!


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## ALMFamily

Thanks guys!

Oh, and for you Prof - I finished sanding the 2nd layer of mud tonight. I will be doing the final layer when I get back. :bigsmile:


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## HTip

Have fun and don't fall in


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Good news! My wife decided not to shove me into the falls......

I got the finish layer done except for one spot by the door that I somehow missed mudding altogether - I got the 2nd layer on that earlier today and have the fan running down there to help it dry a bit faster.

I also got started on a primer layer for paint - I did the closet and started on the ceiling which will both be painted black. I want to try to get both of those done by this weekend as I will be tackling the false soffit and getting the wiring cabinet up in the closet. I promise to snap a couple pictures tonight when I continue painting.

Oh, and for fun, I decided to let the kids draw on the walls tonight before I prime them - should be a hoot!


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## TypeA

Welcome back


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## Prof.

Glad to see you made it back safely Joe!
Looking forward to seeing some colour in the room..


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## PTAaron

Glad you made it back ok! Looking forward to some new pictures!


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyacoust

OK, I have an acoustical in nature question. I am going to be starting on false soffits this weekend and I am thinking about using 2x2's for the framework and then covering the top (which would affix to the ceiling) and the bottom (which is the side where the lights will be mounted) with plywood. 

I thought this would provide a bit more support when I wrap it in drywall as well as making it simpler to fasten the drywall to it.

However, I am not sure how this will affect the room acoustics as I am in essence making it a double layer when the walls are already double layered. Is there a reason I should not use plywood and just go with 2x2s for the entire false soffit structure?

TIA!

Joe


----------



## Prof.

Joe..I don't see any reason why you can't just cover the framework with drywall..
If you put ply on first and then the drywall, you could get some resonance between the two panels unless you put green glue between the two..

Why not just use MDF for your coverings?..It has a very smooth surface and doesn't damage as easily as drywall..


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Joe..I don't see any reason why you can't just cover the framework with drywall..
> If you put ply on first and then the drywall, you could get some resonance between the two panels unless you put green glue between the two..
> 
> Why not just use MDF for your coverings?..It has a very smooth surface and doesn't damage as easily as drywall..


Good point on the resonances - I had not considered _between_ the two layers.

That is an excellent suggestion - I will have to look into the price difference between the two - Thanks!


----------



## HTip

Glad you returned safely! 

The following variable have an effect on acoustics. This can be postive or negative 
- Surface material. The more it can bend the greater is the effect. Even MDF bends 
- Area of the panel.
- Volume of the space behind the panel.
- Material used to fill up the space

If you want you can create a panel absorber tuned to a specific frequency with plywood, mineral wool and hollow space. I have explained the build in my thread. But it should not be done random. With REW you can determine the possible problems in the room.

Covering this with dry wall counters the effect, because it prevents bending.


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks Philip!

I wish I knew now how much low end absorbtion I would need so that I can build the soffits accordingly.  I already planned for super chunks in the front corners and smaller traps in the rear corners as well as potentially using the riser. I suppose my best bet is to maintain the flexibility and build the soffits in a way that would allow me to use them as well.

Blech - it is these kind of points in this process that make me agonize since finalizing a decision now affects everything later.........:scratch:


----------



## kadijk

Here's what I'd be tempted to do. We encounter these situations in custom home building all the time. A decision that affects many things has to be made...but a home owner is unable or unwilling to commit "yet" on a particular detail. We find a way to continue with the flexibility to decide later. All that to say...can you build the soffits later? Do you have to do them now? If there's lights in them, can you leave the wires hanging? And if you do make the soffits into absorbers, you probably won't have to deal with the mess of drywall...plywood and MDF are alot less messy to finish. That's what I would do. If you have the option to wait.


----------



## ALMFamily

kadijk said:


> Here's what I'd be tempted to do. We encounter these situations in custom home building all the time. A decision that affects many things has to be made...but a home owner is unable or unwilling to commit "yet" on a particular detail. We find a way to continue with the flexibility to decide later. All that to say...can you build the soffits later? Do you have to do them now? If there's lights in them, can you leave the wires hanging? And if you do make the soffits into absorbers, you probably won't have to deal with the mess of drywall...plywood and MDF are alot less messy to finish. That's what I would do. If you have the option to wait.


Thanks Kadijk - always good to hear I am not the only one. 

I spent the morning looking through other builds and think I have a handle on how to do them now. I will make the frame from 2x2s and then cover the vertical side with MDF. The bottom side I will only cover with MDF where I plan to put downlights. Then, I will cover the full downside with black GOM cloth. 

As for stapling the cloth, I will staple one side to the 2x2 before I put the vertical MDF on and then the other side to the furring strip that I planned to run along the top side of the walls which will then be covered by trim to hide the staples. I had already planned to do floor, chair rail, and top-of-wall furring strips so that I can mount panels to cover the side wall acoustical insulation.

Inside the soffits, I will fill it with pink fluffy and then support all that with faced OC703. 

Any holes in my thoughts that you guys can see?


----------



## kadijk

From a construction point of view your plan sounds good. I would want Brian to offer his opinion acoustically though. It might be better to do the sides like the bottom if you can and have cloth on the sides too...otherwise they become reflective and almost defeat the absorptive function. That's my untrained, not so professional opinion...


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## Prof.

I think the point of leaving the completed soffits until later is a good one..

You really need to see how dampened the room is prior to building the soffits..Certainly put up the frame work first and just the under panels where the downlights will be located, but no facings or coverings until the rest of the room is finished..

When I re did my room I already knew that the room was very well dampened, so I wanted to keep the additional dampening of the soffits to a minimum..so I just used painted MDF for the coverings and minimal pink fluffy insulation inside..

Since re-calibrating my audio after the soffits were fitted, I've only had to increase my levels by +1dB! on the fronts and surrounds..


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> I think the point of leaving the completed soffits until later is a good one..
> 
> You really need to see how dampened the room is prior to building the soffits..Certainly put up the frame work first and just the under panels where the downlights will be located, but no facings or coverings until the rest of the room is finished..
> 
> When I re did my room I already knew that the room was very well dampened, so I wanted to keep the additional dampening of the soffits to a minimum..so I just used painted MDF for the coverings and minimal pink fluffy insulation inside..
> 
> Since re-calibrating my audio after the soffits were fitted, I've only had to increase my levels by +1dB! on the fronts and surrounds..


Prof,

In order to get a good idea of how dampened the room would be, wouldn't I have to have the carpeting and chairs in at the very least? IIRC, those absorb as well, correct?


----------



## Prof.

Yes..all the furnishings in the room..


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Wow - it has been 2 whole weeks since my last update! I switched gears a bit due to the SE WI Speaker GTG - I wanted to get a bit of final research in before I went, and then I wanted to get my reviews posted so I have not been updating my thread - shame on me!  If you are not aware, my speaker thread is in my sig.......

So, as of last update, I had some mudding left and had just started doing primer. In the past 2 weeks, I got the primer layer all done, the celing painted (flat Black Leather) and the closet painted (also flat black leather). I installed all the vent covers in the closet as well as hung the cabinet that will serve as a landing point for all the low-voltage wiring as well as housing my home's modem / wireless router.

So, as I understand it, getting the primer on means I am halfway done, right?! :flex:

Well, today I started tackling the soffit. Once we got going, it went really well - here are a few pics!

Front wall painted!










Back wall painted!










Screen Wall soffit































Sump Pump Wall































I will be continuing on the soffit over the week.......


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## PTAaron

Nice progress! That flat black really makes the ceiling disappear. Keep up the good work!!


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## ALMFamily

PTAaron said:


> Nice progress! That flat black really makes the ceiling disappear. Keep up the good work!!


Thanks! I know - when I finished it the room just seemed so much bigger!


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## raZorTT

Nicely done Joe!


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## HTip

Great progress Joe. Ceiling looks real good and now I know what soffits are :innocent:


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## Prof.

Nice work Joe..It's taking shape nicely..:T
Are you putting up prefabricated sections, or are you building them as you go?


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## ALMFamily

raZorTT said:


> Nicely done Joe!


Thanks Simon! Good to hear from you - hope all is well.



HTip said:


> Great progress Joe. Ceiling looks real good and now I know what soffits are :innocent:


:rofl2: Thanks Philip - I am just hoping mine turn out as good as Profs!



Prof. said:


> Nice work Joe..It's taking shape nicely..:T
> Are you putting up prefabricated sections, or are you building them as you go?


Thanks Prof! I am building them as I go - I have been constructing them in portions so that I can carry them downstairs (saw is in the garage) and then installing that portion. I figured this might be the better way to go so that I can keep it as square as possible.

On a different note, we have a Direct Tools place nearby that sells refurbished tools. I got a 10" compound miter saw the other day for $60 - I saw that and was like :yikes::spend: Gimme! :bigsmile:


----------



## Prof.

Nice pick up on the compound mitre saw! :T

I have one myself and it was invaluable for cutting the mouldings on the soffits..To do the corner mitres on the soffit mouldings, you need to cut two different angles at the same time!
The compound mitre saw made it so easy..:T


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## mcascio

It's looking really good. Hopefully you can keep picking away at it.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

As I was not completely sure how to construct soffits initially, I thought I would try to provide a little more detail so bear with me. 

So, as Mario said, I "picked" at the soffits this past week and I was able to finish them this morning. As I stated in an earlier post on a question from Prof, I constructed them in smaller pieces to make it easier to put up myself. I did have my wife help with a few pieces, but for the most part I was able to do it solo.

I used 2 1/2" construction screws for putting the pieces together. I used 3 1/2" drywall / construction screws to go into the walls (through the 2x2, drywall, OSB, and into the res channel).

So, the first thing I did was build my projector box as I am planning on putting it inside the soffit (leaving an opening of course) to try to reduce a little of the noise. Here the the result:




















The 3 electrical lines visible are for outlets - one for the projector, one for the rope lighting for the light tray, and one for the star ceiling light kit.

Then, I went back to continuing around the room as I could now end at the projector assembly. To provide a little more detail here, I would first construct the piece that screwed to the wall. This piece would in essence set the height of the soffits. After that piece was up, I would construct the piece that screwed to the ceiling to set the width of the soffits. Here is a pic of those two pieces up:










In order to be able to connect to the existing soffit as well as allowing the next piece to be connected, each end has a 2x4 (instead of 2x2) that overlaps the end. You can see that a little better here:










Last, I constructed the bottom and screwed it to the wall piece and the ceiling piece.








































And, finally, here are a few pictures of the end result. The first picture is of the screen wall:










Here is the right side wall. Notice this is one of the two spots where I came out from the soffit that enclosed HVAC running to other portions of the house and created a "false" soffit making sure it was the same width as the "full" false soffit on the other side of the room.










Here is the back wall - you can see where the projector will go.










Here is the left side of the room:





















Next up - sanding the soffits. None of this will be visible in the slightest, but it will trouble me to have rough lumber with its inherent splintering there. Plus, if I use the soffits as bass absorbers, it will make it scads easier to get the fabric around them.


----------



## raZorTT

Great effort! Especially by yourself!


----------



## PTAaron

Nice bit of progress there! It is really starting to come together well. I like the projector tucked away in the soffit - eliminates the "head hitting potential" as well as decreasing the sound. 
Are you going to so some ventilation to the projector box?


----------



## Owen Bartley

Very nice soffit work, Joe. I was wondering the same thing about ventilation. Would you be able to get away with just a passive vent into another room, or do you think you'll need to have a fan involved?


----------



## ALMFamily

raZorTT said:


> Great effort! Especially by yourself!





PTAaron said:


> Nice bit of progress there! It is really starting to come together well. I like the projector tucked away in the soffit - eliminates the "head hitting potential" as well as decreasing the sound.
> Are you going to so some ventilation to the projector box?





Owen Bartley said:


> Very nice soffit work, Joe. I was wondering the same thing about ventilation. Would you be able to get away with just a passive vent into another room, or do you think you'll need to have a fan involved?


Thanks guys!

I am actually not building a full "hush box" assembly. It will be open in front, and I included enough depth so that there would be room for air to flow around it.

That said, I will be monitoring the temperature in that area closely - if I find it does get too warm in there, I will most likely get a small, quiet computer fan and mount it in there to get some air flow. Plus, the AE7000 vents out the front so it should push most of that warmer air into the room itself which will be cooled by a ductless mini split system.

I had originally thought about venting to another room, but squashed that idea as I felt it would provide an all-too-easy path for sound to escape after all the sound isolation effort.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyREW

On another front, I started putting together my REW gear - I ordered a Verified+ Galaxy 140 from Cross Spectrum Labs as I do not have an RS SPL meter yet and thought I could kill 2 birds with one stone and all that. 

One question I have - does anyone know if a preamp such as the ART USB Dual Pre 2 channel preamp is needed with the CM140? If I understand correctly, the CM140 has its own power source, but I would still need the ART for the external soundcard - is that right?


----------



## HTip

Looking good again Joe. When the projector emits the heat at the front you should be ok with the "hush box" even without the fan. And it will be probaly be a while before you switch projectors


----------



## Prof.

Nice work on the soffits Joe..Believe me..I know what it's like to put up soffits by yourself!! That timber gets very heavy after awhile! :rant: :bigsmile:
Will you be covering the face and the underside with fabric?


----------



## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> Looking good again Joe. When the projector emits the heat at the front you should be ok with the "hush box" even without the fan. And it will be probaly be a while before you switch projectors


Thanks Philip! You are right - I am set for a projector for a while. 



Prof. said:


> Nice work on the soffits Joe..Believe me..I know what it's like to put up soffits by yourself!! That timber gets very heavy after awhile! :rant: :bigsmile:
> Will you be covering the face and the underside with fabric?


Boy, it sure does!

I am going to take you guys' advice and wait to decide on the soffits. If I end up using them as bass absorbers, I will go with the FRK / cloth. If not, I think I will drywall them.


----------



## Gregr

Joe,
I read you had an issue with a Crown Amp and a Ground loop circuit. Can you go into a little detail here. I didn't want to ask on the thread where you mentioned the issue because it might have taken away from the thread topic, but here I feel this is a good topic to include. If you have mentioned this somewhere else and you got some great feedback and went on at length just refer me to that thread/post. I would love to read about it or hear about it.


----------



## Gregr

Oh..., are you going to be one happy camper when this is finished.

I meant to tell you what an incredible job you have done with only a little help from time to time, when you had to. I know how tedious some of this work can be on your own. In any case your progress is admirable. I like the OSB under the sheetrock it sure makes finishing easier from sofit to sound panel to to theater marque you can put these things anywhere securely. 

Looks great!


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Joe,
> I read you had an issue with a Crown Amp and a Ground loop circuit. Can you go into a little detail here. I didn't want to ask on the thread where you mentioned the issue because it might have taken away from the thread topic, but here I feel this is a good topic to include. If you have mentioned this somewhere else and you got some great feedback and went on at length just refer me to that thread/post. I would love to read about it or hear about it.





Gregr said:


> Oh..., are you going to be one happy camper when this is finished.
> 
> I meant to tell you what an incredible job you have done with only a little help from time to time, when you had to. I know how tedious some of this work can be on your own. In any case your progress is admirable. I like the OSB under the sheetrock it sure makes finishing easier from sofit to sound panel to to theater marque you can put these things anywhere securely.
> 
> Looks great!


Thanks Greg!

As far as the ground loop, I got it when I introduced the Crown amp. I had remembered reading a couple other threads suggesting that the cable box is the normal culprit, so I tested it by unplugging the cable line from the DVR. Sure enough, that was it. I asked Tony and he made a couple suggestions on how to ground it. I first tried to get a line noise reducer from RS, but that did nothing.

Next, I tried to ground it to the AVR ground screw - that did nothing either. Finally, I remembered I had a surge protector that I used for my Christmas tree lights that also had 2 cable connection points. On a hunch, I decided to try to run the cable signal through it and Voila! No more ground loop. So, in the end, I spent nothing to fix it and now I have a slightly better surge protector on my living room system. Win-win!


----------



## Gregr

Go figure. There used to be a reverse polarity switch on the backs of Amps and such, most of the time that did nothing either. Most of the time what it is is 60 cycle hum with no reason in particular for you to hear it. Could be the an old non-repid start florescent light, or just a loud FL light.

Another possibility if you want the better surge protector (SP) on your most expensive equipment is using a seperate circuit for the Amp and/or the cable-box. One reason your hearing the hum could be the better SP. You could try moving some of your breakers around. If possible put the cable box on a breaker line as distant as possible from your amp circuit or seperate the Cable-box and Amp as much as possible

Ya know 60 cycles per second actually does cause screws to loosen on AC IEC, plugs etc. Check the connections on AC wiring in your breaker box and breakers themselves "ONLY IF YOU ARE CERTIFIED". IF NOT CERTIFIED, just swap out breakers. If the real issue is fixed you might like to use the better SP in your HT.

This is a common problem and I have given it some thought. I have other ideas


----------



## mjg100

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> I am actually not building a full "hush box" assembly. It will be open in front, and I included enough depth so that there would be room for air to flow around it.
> 
> That said, I will be monitoring the temperature in that area closely - if I find it does get too warm in there, I will most likely get a small, quiet computer fan and mount it in there to get some air flow. Plus, the AE7000 vents out the front so it should push most of that warmer air into the room itself which will be cooled by a ductless mini split system.
> 
> I had originally thought about venting to another room, but squashed that idea as I felt it would provide an all-too-easy path for sound to escape after all the sound isolation effort.


With intake ports at the back and side, it will pull some of the hot air back into the box, causing temperatures to rise. I would keep a close eye on it. Personally, I would add the fan to draw fresh air into the back of the box.


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Go figure. There used to be a reverse polarity switch on the backs of Amps and such, most of the time that did nothing either. Most of the time what it is is 60 cycle hum with no reason in particular for you to hear it. Could be the an old non-repid start florescent light, or just a loud FL light.
> 
> Another possibility if you want the better surge protector (SP) on your most expensive equipment is using a seperate circuit for the Amp and/or the cable-box. One reason your hearing the hum could be the better SP. You could try moving some of your breakers around. If possible put the cable box on a breaker line as distant as possible from your amp circuit or seperate the Cable-box and Amp as much as possible
> 
> Ya know 60 cycles per second actually does cause screws to loosen on AC IEC, plugs etc. Check the connections on AC wiring in your breaker box and breakers themselves "ONLY IF YOU ARE CERTIFIED". IF NOT CERTIFIED, just swap out breakers. If the real issue is fixed you might like to use the better SP in your HT.
> 
> This is a common problem and I have given it some thought. I have other ideas


Thanks for the response Greg! On the plus side, this surge protector was just sitting in a box until December every year - I found a used Monster protector on Craigslist pretty cheap (would never pay what they get for them new ) that I will be using in the HT. So, I am planning to keep this one with my living room system - and I will just find a cheap strip to use for the tree. I think I will see if I can't plug those 2 into separate circuits to see if that reduces the noise - just as a test. 



mjg100 said:


> With intake ports at the back and side, it will pull some of the hot air back into the box, causing temperatures to rise. I would keep a close eye on it. Personally, I would add the fan to draw fresh air into the back of the box.


Good point Mike - I had not considered the fact that the intakes would be taking in slowly heated air. I think I will look into a small, quiet computer fan and use something like that to push air to the back - thanks!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyacoust ALMFamilyconstr

So, as I was finishing sanding the soffit framing this afternoon (don't tell Prof I was using my orbital sander :bigsmile, I started thinking about using them as bass absorbers.

A question occurred to me - why SHOULDN't I use them as bass absorbers? It seems like I should just go ahead and finish them as absorbers now, and then when I get the carpeting, furniture, etc in take measurements to see how much more (corners, etc) I would need. Does that make sense? 

I guess I was thinking that it would allow me to do the star ceiling, light tray, recessed lighting and trim (chair rail and upper rail) before I put in the riser, carperting and furniture that I would then have to work around. Plus, I would then use MDF instead of drywall to support the recessed lights as I believe Prof said MDF is more absorbtive than drywall.

Thoughts anyone?


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## Gregr

Thoughts, whenever possible I like to finish from the top down. Beginning with Ceilings then walls and floors always last this is a "critical path procedure". Only in extreme cases will a finished floor go down before the ceiling and/or wall finishes. Floor riser framing and subfloor can go in anytime. Furniture is probably the worst idea it will always be in the way.

Imagine furniture in a far corner..., well you need to snap lines for the framing for your coffered ceiling, so now you move the furniture to the center of the room. Now every time you rechalk your line you will have to step down walk away from the center with your chalk line. 

So now the framing for the ceiling beams are incomplete in the center as you apply box beams. You will have to move again because you will need to finish framing before you can even begin to apply box beams. and again move as you begin trim work. and again move before work on each field finishes. Furniture is the worst idea ever. 

Think fast you already know the logic do not think and confuse the issues. There is a very simple "Critical Path Procedure".


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## Gregr

MDF (medium density fiberboard) is often used in mass produced speaker cabinets because of its sound damping/absorptive qualities. This my first choice above rock, but if you use this in sofit there is still a reflective potential because of its placement in the scheme of 2nd and third reflected sound waves. A question better answered by Bryan Pape I think. 

I like the fabric idea and I would think about adding rock wool or diffusion of this type but in a cylindrical pattern. 8"-12" size.


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## Gregr

When you get all of your work done, then furniture moved it is still not too late to take additional measurements !!!


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## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> So, as I was finishing sanding the soffit framing this afternoon (don't tell Prof I was using my orbital sander :bigsmile,


Sprung!! :bigsmile:



> A question occurred to me - why SHOULDN't I use them as bass absorbers? It seems like I should just go ahead and finish them as absorbers now, and then when I get the carpeting, furniture, etc in take measurements to see how much more (corners, etc) I would need. Does that make sense?


Joe..I would suggest not making them finished bass absorbers at this time..
You really need to see how the finished room is as far as the acoustic dampening goes, to determine whether you need to make them bass absorbers or MDF covered soffits..

If they are made as bass absorbers with cloth coverings, then they will have no reflective qualities whatsoever...and maybe you won't need any, but if it turns out that the room is really dead with them made this way, then you'll need to cover them with MDF and you will have wasted all that fabric and time to put it all up..

With the framing type construction you're using, it would be a simple matter of putting in the rolls of insulation..fitting small MDF panels on the underside where you want your downlights to be positioned..and trying it like that..
The fabric covering isn't go to make much difference to the bass absorber effectiveness, so when the rest of the room is finished, you'll be able to hear how affective the bass absorber is and whether it dampens the room too much..If it is too dead, then you will be able to put on MDF or drywall coverings instead of the fabric...
Don't forget that the acoustic fibreglass not only acts as a bass absorber, but it also deadens the acoustic environment as well..Also, you do need to have some reflective qualities near the back of the room, particularly for the surround speakers..

But the final decision is yours of course and whatever you feel comfortable with doing..


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## ALMFamily

As I was sitting down to dinner, I was thinking that I did not explain myself very well.......

I was trying to decide if I should use small pieces of drywall or MDF to support the lights and you both have answered that for me - MDF it will be.

As far as the rest, I was thinking that I would do the insulation but not wrap the cloth around it as of yet. However, in order to do it that way, I would need to cut the faced OC703 to fit in there - and then be prepared to pull it back out if the room is too dead. Probably not very cost effective......

So, I think I will have to adopt both your thoughts here. I agree Greg - the top down approach is one that I want to employ. Otherwise, I will be moving the furniture in and out as well as dirtying up the carpet. But, I need to wait on the soffit / bass absorber as you said Prof......

The dilemma I am trying to figure out is how to wrap the cloth once around the soffit once the star ceiling is up without having to take the star ceiling panels down to staple it up..........


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## Prof.

Joe..you don't need to use faced OC703 in the soffits!..Just plain old pink or gold batts rolled up will do the job..
Does the framing for the star ceiling butt up against the soffits?


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## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Joe..you don't need to use faced OC703 in the soffits!..Just plain old pink or gold batts rolled up will do the job..
> Does the framing for the star ceiling butt up against the soffits?


I thought that you used faced to reflect highs - at least, that is what I thought when I read Moggie's build thread. Where is it that people are using faced OC703 - is that only on back walls?

I thought I would hang the star ceiling much the same way Simon did - I thought he used a Z channel. I will have to double check and see how he managed it.

Oh, and I gaffed. In order to get my false soffit to line up with the soffit enclosing the HVAC, I stopped the soffit framing for the false soffits 5/8" short. Evidently, they don't make a 5/8" MDF so I may be stuck using drywall for supporting my recessed lights.


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## Prof.

Yes you're right..The faced OC703 will reflect highs and of course if you are only lining the soffits, as opposed to filling them, then it will be effective for bass absorption and reflected highs...My bad! :whistling:
In which case if that's what you plan to do, then you could complete the soffits with fabric coverings straight off..
For the most part, the faced OC703 is used on back walls..


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## Gregr

I believe I see where the Prof is headed. You know where the sofit frame begins and the Star pattern ceiling begins. In either case if you stop the star a board thickness from the sofit that piece can be inserted later or filled with trim molding later. 

I remember now it is a "star patterned drop ceiling". Well after the ceiling is up and with a board thickness gap between the drop ceiling and the sofit and any other false beam or finish materials, 

If you go with fabric: begin the fabric at the star ceiling and pull it around and down the length to cover what is needed and cover the begining and end seams (ceiling and wall seams) with a molding or flat stock of your choice in size/configuration. 

If you go with MDF all that is needed is to slide into place. You could still use moldings

Do not think about this too much, do not worry yourself. If the sofit and ceiling were butted tight you could still finish in the same way. Buy the Diva Be's !!!! I believe you already posses the knowledge and experience to finish the walls sofit ceiling. When you get to that or whatever other place in time you will know what to do to make it look right. 

You could start or end the fabric tightly or cleanly enough so that if you butted the ceiling to the sofit you will not even need a trim piece to cover the transition.


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## ALMFamily

Just re-read Moggie's - he filled the soffits with pink fluffy and then to support it he did 2" faced 703 on the side soffits and 2" unfaced on the front and back soffits.

_Front wall: Corner base traps, use of area behind soffit as additional trap, then 2" OC703 over the entire wall.

The soffits are stuffed with the pink stuff with a 2" layer OC703 supporting the bottom. Working on each 2' section at a time I was able to completely fill with insulation. The side soffits are completed the same way but with FSK facing to prevent too much HF absorption._

Does this make sense?


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## Gregr

1 concern is if you have/use box beams like coffering the ceiling like the old Castle Library or Men's Clubs. In this case you should use a board thickness gap and fill with a decorative Plinth block.


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## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> I believe I see where the Prof is headed. You know where the sofit frame begins and the Star pattern ceiling begins. In either case if you stop the star a board thickness from the sofit that piece can be inserted later or filled with trim molding later.
> 
> I remember now it is a "star patterned drop ceiling". Well after the ceiling is up and with a board thickness gap between the drop ceiling and the sofit and any other false beam or finish materials,
> 
> If you go with fabric: begin the fabric at the star ceiling and pull it around and down the length to cover what is needed and cover the begining and end seams (ceiling and wall seams) with a molding or flat stock of your choice in size/configuration.
> 
> If you go with MDF all that is needed is to slide into place. You could still use moldings
> 
> Do not think about this too much, do not worry yourself. If the sofit and ceiling were butted tight you could still finish in the same way. Buy the Diva Be's !!!! I believe you already posses the knowledge and experience to finish the walls sofit ceiling. When you get to that or whatever other place in time you will know what to do to make it look right.
> 
> You could start or end the fabric tightly or cleanly enough so that if you butted the ceiling to the sofit you will not even need a trim piece to cover the transition.





Gregr said:


> 1 concern is if you have/use box beams like coffering the ceiling like the old Castle Library or Men's Clubs. In this case you should use a board thickness gap and fill with a decorative Plinth block.


I think I understand now. I found these a while ago - I thought I would use those to hang the star ceiling panels so that I had no screws / nails visible. Plus, it would make taking them down easier. That way, I can do as you guys suggest - I can wrap the soffits later since I can just remove panels in order to staple to the soffit framing, and then bury those staples up behind the star panels.

I found a 5/8" MDF - unfortuntaely, it is a 6 hour drive away and I really only need 2 sheets at most. So, I have two options as I see it:

1. Use a 1/2" MDF and find some 1/8" shims (or rip some of my own) so that I can use MDF OR
2. Use 5/8" drywall and potentially affect the soffits ability to be used for absorption

Thoughts or other ideas?


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## kadijk

Not sure how to help you Joe. First...don't fret. 

You could fill your soffits later with batt insulation, and then face them with 6 mil poly, and then the cloth. That way you get the bass absorption and limit the HF reductions. Same way you'd make a thick bass absorber panel. 

Is the 5/8 mdf just to mount the lights in the soffit? So they'll be small pieces? Like 12"x12"(or whatever the bottom dim of the soffit is)? Those small pieces won't stop the soffit from being an effective absorber...not noticeably anyways. 5/8 drywall in small chunks like that aren't rigid enough to be that reflective anyways(IMHO) if that has to be an option. 
Cheers


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## Gregr

Wow I feel I have come full circle on this one. I sense what you are trying or looking for is a ceiling that you can put on and take off quickly and easily. That is easily done with the clips you have chosen/found or are they rails cut to act as clips.

First though. I believe the answer to the sofit question is already known. The wall/ceiling transition is a common issue. I do not have the answer, but at HTS I will be surprised if somebody does not respond to a post question. I have mentioned names - maybe too often. I cannot offer anybody's help. I expected I would see Bryan' thoughts in your discussions. I hope he is OK, I have not seen any of his posts for some time..., though I haven't looked. There are other very experienced people but I like the Bryan answers questions. He gives you the big picture right up front. His answers give you choices.

Well, if you want a removable ceiling system so you can fine tune your sofit now or further down the road when/if changes are made in your audio system, try this:

First I am using a 4'x 8' sheet as an example of a panel that actually could be any size/proportion thereof.

Mount a short rail to this ceiling panel 2' from the top of the 4' edge and parallel to the 4' edge
second mount a short rail to the opposite end one half on and one half extending beyond the bottom 4' edge. 

Now you have a modular panel that can be held in place with one or two clips fastened to the ceiling that will receive the short rail mounted 2' from the top of the panel. At the same time the short rail slides into the clips here, the bottom mounted short rail extending beyond the panel at the bottom slides under the preceding panel or under the sofit frame mounted to the ceiling. 

Mount the panels unfinished. As you take them down for the first time number them in an inconspicuous place with orientation markers on the panel and ceiling. Include as much info as you can see/find or think of. 

Now finish them in another safe area, out of the way and will not get damaged or collect inordinate amounts of dust before drying. Cover with plastic until ready to begin testing or anytime.


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## Gregr

One screw on the last piece will hold it all in place


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## Gregr

Ooopps. The bottom rail that extends beyond the bottom of the panel needs to be simple flat stock. Reasonably thin but with essential rigidity, aluminum or brass or the like.

I need to stop writing/responding beyond midnight............................................................


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## ALMFamily

Thanks for the responses and thoughts guys - I think I just needed to shut the computer off and go to bed. Fretting done.... :R

I came to the same conclusion while I was sleeping Kadijk - the only real sizeable piece will be the one that supports the projector. I should still be able to have sufficient open space to allow the soffits to function properly. 

Now, since I have full control over this space, I had already planned to work with Bryan on the acoustical treatments for the walls so I am thinking I just want to use the soffits for bass absorption.

As far as the ceiling, I think what I will do (subject to change as I get that going of course) is use those Z channels. When I get to the last one, I will use Greg's suggestion of a board at the end to close the small gap and then I can wrap that in cloth as well.

Thanks guys for all your help!


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyacoust

After a bit of searching the net, I decided to finalize the soffit design. I will be using them solely as bass absorbers. So, I am going to use the idea presented by Kadijk a bit earlier and forgo the faced OC703 (to save a bit of $) to use pink fluffy and 6 mil poly then wrap in cloth - does that sound right K?

That way, I can finish the soffits now - wrapping and all - and then start on the star ceiling.

The main reason I felt I could just use them for bass absorbtion is that I will be treating the walls (with Bryan's help I hope ) to handle reflection points.

If I am way off base here, someone stop me before it is too late!


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## kadijk

Yup. Sounds right to me. Loose fill pink(or white depending on your brand) insulation, and then 6 mil poly on the facing, then covered with cloth. I take no credit for that system, though. It's knowledge gained here on HTS, thanks to guys like Bryan and others. Hope you have a productive weekend Joe. I'm cleaning and organizing my shop in preparation for front loaded horn construction...starting soon!


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## HTip

I think it's a tough call to know at this moment what type of acoustical treatment will be needed in your room. Without a measurement it's a bit like trial and error. Is it possible for you to do a REW-measurement at this stage? I don't know if Aaron lives nearby but he seems to know his way with REW


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## ALMFamily

kadijk said:


> Yup. Sounds right to me. Loose fill pink(or white depending on your brand) insulation, and then 6 mil poly on the facing, then covered with cloth. I take no credit for that system, though. It's knowledge gained here on HTS, thanks to guys like Bryan and others. Hope you have a productive weekend Joe. I'm cleaning and organizing my shop in preparation for front loaded horn construction...starting soon!


Thank K - actually, as I wa reading last night, I found several threads where Bryan chimed in about soffits - on a few different forums. He sure is busy!

And I will be following along with your build!



HTip said:


> I think it's a tough call to know at this moment what type of acoustical treatment will be needed in your room. Without a measurement it's a bit like trial and error. Is it possible for you to do a REW-measurement at this stage? I don't know if Aaron lives nearby but he seems to know his way with REW


Very true Philip - as I was reading a slew of threads last night, I just got the impression that having plenty of bass absorbtion was a good thing. Pretty much every thread I read suggested that the places to treat were tri-corners. So, with my ability to use the rear corners for traps being limited as my entry is on one side and there will be a column close to the corner on the other - to maintain symmetry - I thought this would be a good place to locate them where I would not lose floor space.

I PM'd Aaron a few times to discuss REW and I have most of my rig purchased. That said, I don't have my mains yet and the room has not been set up with connections at this point so I really don't have a good way to produce sound.

I guess in the end it came down to the thought that most people dont use their soffits for absorbtion of any kind so they treat for highs and mids elsewhere and must use all four corners for bass trapping. If I can leverage the soffits for bass trapping at least, I may be able to reduce the amount needed on walls. I also found out that since my riser will not go wall to wall and extend to the back wall, it may not be useful for absorbtion - no tri-corner theory at work again.

I of course can be talked out of this because, as I have said, I am the pinnacle of noobery. :bigsmile:


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## Prof.

Joe,

Even if you build your soffits for absorption, you will still need to include bass traps, at least in the front corners..You may even need bass traps in the rear corners as well, but that's something you can decide on later..
Also, the soffits won't stop sound bouncing off the side walls..so you will still need to use the standard size and thickness wall panels at the first and second reflection points..Definitely don't skimp on them..


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## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Joe,
> 
> Even if you build your soffits for absorption, you will still need to include bass traps, at least in the front corners..You may even need bass traps in the rear corners as well, but that's something you can decide on later..
> Also, the soffits won't stop sound bouncing off the side walls..so you will still need to use the standard size and thickness wall panels at the first and second reflection points..Definitely don't skimp on them..


Spot on as usual mate - I have planned the screen wall to include floor to soffit bass traps super chunk style. I am going to try to do rear traps - but they may be just the small corner type.

As far as highs / mids, I plan on working with Bryan to layout a plan for screen wall / side wall / rear wall treatments. Hopefully, that should cover all the bases........


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## Prof.

Sounds like you've got all your bases covered Joe! :T
Can't wait to see the end results..


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

As Mario said, I have been picking away a bit each day. I chatted a bit with Bryan, and have decided to build the soffits to absorb 20-200 by using fluffy with 703 to hold it in, then wrapped in MLV and finally covered with black GOM. I will be ordering all that hopefully soon.

I have also been continuing to put up the recessed lights. I promise to snap a couple photos tomorrow.


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## HTip

Looks like you thought of everything :T

To use REW you only need a (small) amplifier and one speaker. PA speaker does the job also and was used with my measurement in the first stage of the build.



















Maybe you can do some kind of measurement this way...


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## ALMFamily

Philip,

Was that to determine room modes? Would it makes sense that the one speaker is a subwoofer as that would be more prone to show peaks / nulls?

I can definitely understand wanting to do measurements as soon as possible. I am just wondering exactly what it would provide.

Thanks again for following along!

Joe


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## PTAaron

I'm curious as well. I would think it would provide more useable information if performed using your intended speakers in a room that already contains the equipment and furniture? I know virtually nothing about analyzing rooms though - that is the main reason I'm curious :T


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## raZorTT

ALMFamily said:


> ALMFamilyconstr
> 
> As Mario said, I have been picking away a bit each day. I chatted a bit with Bryan, and have decided to build the soffits to absorb 20-200 by using fluffy with 703 to hold it in, then wrapped in MLV and finally covered with black GOM. I will be ordering all that hopefully soon.
> 
> I have also been continuing to put up the recessed lights. I promise to snap a couple photos tomorrow.


Keep plugging away :T

look forward to the pics.

Simon


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## HTip

ALMFamily said:


> Philip,
> 
> Was that to determine room modes? Would it makes sense that the one speaker is a subwoofer as that would be more prone to show peaks / nulls?
> 
> I can definitely understand wanting to do measurements as soon as possible. I am just wondering exactly what it would provide.
> 
> Thanks again for following along!
> 
> Joe


Hey Joe,

The purpose of that initial measurement (RT60) was to determine (with simulation) what acoustic treatment/material was needed to reduce the amount of reverb along the entire audible frequency spectrum. The room modes were determined by the specialist according to the room dimensions. The PA speaker was used to produce broadband pink noise. A subwoofer wil not do, because of the limitations in frequency (<200Hz).

When you do a REW measurement you can generate a number of different graphs, RT60, waterfall, etc. which can be analyzed already in this stage. To determine what treatment is needed you need a good understanding of the different materials and their respective absorption coefficients. That is not easy for us enthusiasts.

Hope I clearified it a little bit 

Grtz, Philip


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## ALMFamily

Thanks for explaining! I saw another thread where someone provided a link to a room mode calculator so hopefully I won't need someone to manage that part. And, I never considered that you just used the speaker to create pink noise - that makes sense now.

As soon as I make a decision on speakers, my new research project is to start learning REW and figure out how to understand the results. By the time I get that under my belt, the room should be ready for me to actually start doing readings - as Prof said in an earlier post, it won't matter until the furnishings (carpet and furniture) are in there.

And, I definitely agree - I fully plan to work with Bryan to help me plan out how to treat my room - it was his suggestion to use MLV instead of poly to have the soffits absorb 20-200.


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## kadijk

Sounds like a good plan. Can you define MLV? Thanks


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## Gregr

I had a feeling you were not inventing the "HT" Joe. In fact many have gone this way before you. The path is well known and the acoustics of specifically shaped rooms are known as well. I sense the better quality speakers will follow the more predictable path.

Is it my poor writing skills that preclude my believability? I just do not proof read my emails. I write and I send..., no time to make it pretty. Is something I have written that makes my thoughts less than credible..., I know I probably wrote then instead of than in a particularly sensitive phrase.

Joe you have done an incredible amount of homework I do not see anyone slighting you on any questions you have asked. But there is only so much knowledge available to mortal men. Others have access to much broader knowledge base because of experience. However, I will bet the recommendations you got from a certain acoustic designer includes a list of materials he may or may not have in stock. In any case if you find a better price elsewhere he probably needs that info and the opportunity to price match. All's fair in HT construction. Self respect and respect for others are the rules I am aware of in the market. 

Receiving help does not bind you to years of blindly paying top dollar. If you find a better price do then a favor let them know. Any company that does not know what the competition is selling and selling for is soon out of business or is not maxing profits

Thanks for posting the info


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## ALMFamily

Sorry mate - MLV = mass loaded vinyl.

Here is a link to the stuff from The Soundproofing Company - MLV.


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## PTAaron

HTip said:


> Hey Joe,
> 
> The purpose of that initial measurement (RT60) was to determine (with simulation) what acoustic treatment/material was needed to reduce the amount of reverb along the entire audible frequency spectrum. The room modes were determined by the specialist according to the room dimensions. The PA speaker was used to produce broadband pink noise. A subwoofer wil not do, because of the limitations in frequency (<200Hz).
> 
> When you do a REW measurement you can generate a number of different graphs, RT60, waterfall, etc. which can be analyzed already in this stage. To determine what treatment is needed you need a good understanding of the different materials and their respective absorption coefficients. That is not easy for us enthusiasts.
> 
> Hope I clearified it a little bit
> 
> Grtz, Philip


Thanks for clarifying :R


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

More chipping away! The projector area in the soffit is pretty much complete except for some finish work. I put the projector up there and shut all the lights down to get a feel for how it would look - and it looked great! It also helped me locate the screen wash lights. 










All the light housings have been installed. I ended up going with 2 different kinds of lights. All the recessed lighting is 3" LED lighting and the screen wash lights are 4" low voltage wall wash lights.

Here are a couple photos of the light housing units for the recessed lights:





































Here are the screen wash light housings:



















Last, here are the LED lights - I got them all painted black.




























The wiring is now underway - hope to get them all wired up in the next couple days.


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## PTAaron

Nice work on the lights.


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## raZorTT

Looks great Joe, well done :T


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## ALMFamily

PTAaron said:


> Nice work on the lights.





raZorTT said:


> Looks great Joe, well done :T


Cheers! I did find out today that HD / Manards do not make 3 gang wall plate covers with center screws - which is of course the type of outlets I used for the AV closet. Time to google to see if I can find any!


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## HTip

Looks great Joe. Quite a lot of work to paint everything black. Brings back some memories from my lighting escapades 
I used spray paint out of a can. Did you do the same?


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## Prof.

The lights look great Joe..:T

How many screen wash lights did you finish up using?
Also, are your LED downlights mains voltage..and if so, why did you use low voltage for the screen lights?


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## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> Looks great Joe. Quite a lot of work to paint everything black. Brings back some memories from my lighting escapades
> I used spray paint out of a can. Did you do the same?


I did - it was the easiest way I thought of to get a fairly even coating with those ridges on the inside.



Prof. said:


> The lights look great Joe..:T
> 
> How many screen wash lights did you finish up using?
> Also, are your LED downlights mains voltage..and if so, why did you use low voltage for the screen lights?


I ended up going with 3 - I wanted to make sure there was plenty of light in the front. Since I cannot bury all my speakers behind the screen, I figuerd I might as well provide enough light to really accentuate the speakers - this is the main reason I have aesthetics a bit higher on my speaker want list. Two of those LED lights are positioned pretty much right over where the L / R will be.

Yes, the LED downlights are line voltage. The only reason I used low voltage for the screen lights is that I really liked the baffling on this set of lights - it allowed me to do some directional lighting while having a very low profile. I looked at doing a gimbal instead, but I just did not like how much it stood out from behind when the gimbal was moved. And, an eyeball light just stuck out way too far.

Unfortunately, no one makes that light in an LED........


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## DeuceTrinal

ALMFamily said:


> Cheers! I did find out today that HD / Manards do not make 3 gang wall plate covers with center screws - which is of course the type of outlets I used for the AV closet. Time to google to see if I can find any!


Check the metal plates, they may have them in that style. You can just spray paint it (clean it first to degrease it).


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## ALMFamily

Thanks for the suggestion! I will expand my search parameters.


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

LET THERE BE LIGHT!



















All the recessed lights and the screen wash lights are wired up. Next step - finish off the front soffit with drywall (Bryan suggested this) and then start putting up the support pieces in the soffits for the OC 703.

Which leads me to a question - what does one normally use to cut 703? It seems to me a standard utility knife would crush it a bit.


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## PTAaron

Electric bread knife?

Nice work with the lights!


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## raZorTT

Nice work Joe

I used a sharp Stanley knife to cut my 703 equivalent. Doesn't require much effort so crushing shouldn't be a problem :T


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## ALMFamily

PTAaron said:


> Electric bread knife?
> 
> Nice work with the lights!





raZorTT said:


> Nice work Joe
> 
> I used a sharp Stanley knife to cut my 703 equivalent. Doesn't require much effort so crushing shouldn't be a problem :T


Thanks guys - I will loom to see what I can find at my local Menards / HD.

Oh, and I have speakers!


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## PTAaron

Which ones?


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## ALMFamily

You mean you have not been following all 29 pages of my speaker odessey? 

I bought a set of used Salk Songtowers with the matching CC - check the most recent post in my speaker thread for pics / initial impressions,


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## tonyvdb

ALMFamily said:


> Oh, and I have speakers!


Ya, dont keep us in suspense here :bigsmile:


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## tonyvdb

Oh boy, spend several days in the hospital and look what I miss. Im need to do some catch up


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## ALMFamily

See above!


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## PTAaron

ALMFamily said:


> You mean you have not been following all 29 pages of my speaker odessey?
> 
> I bought a set of used Salk Songtowers with the matching CC - check the most recent post in my speaker thread for pics / initial impressions,


Oh very nice!
I have missed a few pages . I'll go check it out!


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## bpape

For cutting the 703, I use those very thin razor knives with the break off blades. Get an extra pack of blades as they dull pretty quickly.

Or, if you want quicker, go to K-Mart, etc. and get a cheap electric carving knife. Not as good as the razor knife if you want exact cuts but for quick bulk cutting, it works great. Plan on pitching it when done with the project.

Bryan


----------



## mcascio

PTAaron said:


> Electric bread knife?
> 
> Nice work with the lights!


+1 on the electric bread knife and the nice work on the lights. 

Depending upon how many cuts you need to make, you might make a jig to make it easier. Check my thread. I believe I posted pictures of how I did it.


----------



## ALMFamily

Found it - thanks for pointing me to that Mario. If I may ask, where are you getting your 703 from and what did you get it for?


----------



## mcascio

While I didn't buy mine here, I was told by another forum member that they have great prices. Probably 1/2 of what I paid for mine online. Not sure if they ship or just offer local pickup. They are not too far from me. If I need to buy more this is where I will go:
Insulation Plus, ask for Cory. The product is John Mansville 814, unfaced.

10795 72nd Ave suite 200
Pleasant Prairie, WI 53158
(262) 671-0400


----------



## ALMFamily

If you do not mind me asking, what was the price? I was able to find 2" 703 for 1.30 / sq ft over in Milwaukee.


----------



## mcascio

Unfortunately I don't remember what the price he told me he paid for it. You could give a shout over there though to find out.


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> ALMFamilyconstr
> 
> LET THERE BE LIGHT!


AND THERE WAS LIGHT! :bigsmile: Looking good Joe! :T

I use an Olfa cutting knife with the long extendable snap off blades to cut my sheets..Cut through the sheets like butter and left a nice clean edge..


----------



## kadijk

Agreed on the Olfa knife. They are slick, and sharp!(watch out). Nice speakers by the way. They should do the trick


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> AND THERE WAS LIGHT! :bigsmile: Looking good Joe! :T
> 
> I use an Olfa cutting knife with the long extendable snap off blades to cut my sheets..Cut through the sheets like butter and left a nice clean edge..





kadijk said:


> Agreed on the Olfa knife. They are slick, and sharp!(watch out). Nice speakers by the way. They should do the trick


Thanks guys! I started putting support pieces up today - before my son's ball game  - hoping to chip away at it this week.


----------



## mjg100

Your room is shaping up. keep plugging away.


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks - and thanks for following along!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Support pieces are all up - started cutting 703 and putting it up last night for a bit. Being a camping weekend, likely no more progress until Tuesday.

I need to get some pictures posted up as well......


----------



## HTip

I'm a little behind on my reading... :sad:

Last pictures look like the room is shaping up very nicely. I can't be much help in your current tasks otherwise saying that you're doing great :T


----------



## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> I'm a little behind on my reading... :sad:
> 
> Last pictures look like the room is shaping up very nicely. I can't be much help in your current tasks otherwise saying that you're doing great :T


So much baseball going on so I am not that caught up either - thanks Philip!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

After plucking away a bit each day, I was able to get the soffits stuffed with insulation and covered with 703.





































The MLV and GOM are ordered and should be delivered in the next few days so I can get them wrapped. In the meantime, I will be mudding and taping, priming and painting the front wall area. Based on Bryan's advice, I ended up just stuffing it with insulation and drywalling it.

I started the 1st layer this morning.


----------



## fitzwaddle

The fabric and carpet phase is always fun to watch! Staying tuned...


----------



## ALMFamily

fitzwaddle said:


> The fabric and carpet phase is always fun to watch! Staying tuned...


Glad to see you are still following along Brad - and nice job on those TLAH's!


----------



## fitzwaddle

Thanks Joe. Yup still here, I usually just get quiet during the framing, insulation, HVAC, drywall, etc. part, and then stick my nose in when its about gear and finishing materials, which to me is where the fun is!


----------



## ALMFamily

Wow - it has been 3 weeks since my last update! I have not perished - merely in crunch time for boy's baseball and the summer projects have taken over.

I think the single-most deterrent for HT progress is summer! :bigsmile:


----------



## Gregr

Hope all you kids are having a great summer. Never enough fun.
My cukes and tomatoes are growin' like weeds.


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks Greg - you are so lucky! The only thing growing here IS the weeds - been a few weeks since we had a good rain......


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

It took far longer than I had hope, but the MLV is now finished on the soffits:





































So glad I have a staple gun - made it go so much faster and easier.

I also painted the front wall and got the covers up for the screen wash lights. The pictures with the light fixtures sure makes the wall look gray - it is actually a flat black.......



















Next up - start wrapping the soffits in black GOM........


----------



## Prof.

Slowly but surely Joe!..It's looking very good..:T


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Slowly but surely Joe!..It's looking very good..:T


Thanks Prof!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

I got a rare occurence - a free day to work in the HT! And, I put it to good use.....

All the soffits are now wrapped in black GOM. It was rough sledding in some places (especially the 15'x5' piece across the back wall and I was doing it pretty much solo), but I was able to get it stapled up really tight. Of course, I wanted to see what it looks like with the lights on, so I got all the fixture openings cut out as well and put all the lights in.

I am extremely happy about how it turned out - here are a couple pictures:





































You will notice the staples in pictures 2 and 4 - the staples at the top will be covered by the star ceiling. The staples along the bottom will be covered by the light tray. The seams I plan on making a cover piece wrapped in GOM and nailing it over the top. Last, the staples at the wall will be covered by the furring strip that provides depth for the finish trim.

Next up - the star ceiling!


----------



## mcascio

Nice job. I'm sure you feel great knowing how much you accomplished. It's nice when you can get in a full days work.

Keep up the great work.


----------



## ALMFamily

mcascio said:


> Nice job. I'm sure you feel great knowing how much you accomplished. It's nice when you can get in a full days work.
> 
> Keep up the great work.


Thanks Mario - it sure did. I went to bed a happy camper.....


----------



## Prof.

Very nice job Joe..:T It's always a good feeling to know you've accomplished the work yourself..


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Very nice job Joe..:T It's always a good feeling to know you've accomplished the work yourself..


Thanks Prof! As soon as I got home today, I went down and turned my lights on and off a few times - I missed my HT project.....


----------



## Prof.

I know the feeling!  You get to the point where you just want it all done so you can enjoy the fruits of your work!..


----------



## PTAaron

Keep up the good work! I'm glad to see you making progress, I'm hoping to have some progress to post up one of these days too


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks Aaron - good to see you back!

More updates coming tomorrow!


----------



## HTip

I should go on holiday more. Everybody makes much more progress 

Looks great Joe. You should take a day or two off at work and you'll finish your HT in no time :TT


----------



## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> I should go on holiday more. Everybody makes much more progress
> 
> Looks great Joe. You should take a day or two off at work and you'll finish your HT in no time :TT


Thanks Philip!

And, I don't work - well, I do sort of. I am a stay at home dad - so I never get a day off work!


----------



## HTip

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks Philip!
> 
> And, I don't work - well, I do sort of. I am a stay at home dad - so I never get a day off work!


:clap: You certainly do. I know how much work it is :gulp:

Maybe you know this video by Lonestar, Mr. Mom. It's great :T


----------



## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> :clap: You certainly do. I know how much work it is :gulp:
> 
> Maybe you know this video by Lonestar, Mr. Mom. It's great :T
> 
> Mr Mom - YouTube


I do - it is one of my wife's favorites! :rofl2:


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyspanel

It has been a rare burst of time to work in the HT lately - must be the +100 degree temps we have had.....:unbelievable:

I got a start on the star ceiling. Handy tools to have:

Dremel with small bit - perfect for drilling all the holes quickly










Countersink bit - perfect for making holes for the tacky glue











So, first, I used a spray on glue to glue the fabric to the MDF - here is one of the panels complete:










After it dried, I flipped it over and stapled the excess material to the back. Once that was done, we decided to make our own "channels" to hang the panels. They look like this:










One side goes on the panel and the other goes to the ceiling - it ends up looking like this:










So, we pre-determined the locations for where these mount on the panels and sketch them on the panel. Then, we measured and drew out 128 6"x6" squares on the back. After those were drawn, we randomly placed 144 holes, drilled them out, and then used the countersink to create a beveled-out hole:




























Next, the channels were mounted and then all the fiber optic cables were fed through. Once they were fed through, we used tacky glue to hold the fiber optic cable in place.










Then, we mounted the channels to the ceiling and hung the panels - two are up so far:




















That leaves one full panel in the back of the room and 2 small panels to fill the remaining area - hope to have more time this week to get those done. I promise to get a couple pictures of the channels mounted......


----------



## Prof.

Joe..What fabric did you use to cover the panels? It doesn't look all that black, unless it's just the photo..
Neat idea on the hangers! :T


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Joe..What fabric did you use to cover the panels? It doesn't look all that black, unless it's just the photo..
> Neat idea on the hangers! :T


Thanks Prof!

I have noticed that every time I take a picture in that room, all colors seem to come out lighter. The material is a black velvet cloth - not the plush stuff. This cloth has a bit of elasticity to it.


----------



## mcascio

It looks like black velvet based upon the sheen it produces.

If it is, be careful and wear gloves so you don't damage the material. Sweat and velvet don't mix.


----------



## ALMFamily

mcascio said:


> It looks like black velvet based upon the sheen it produces.
> 
> If it is, be careful and wear gloves so you don't damage the material. Sweat and velvet don't mix.


Thanks Mario - I remember reading that in your thread and made sure that I took care to work with it downstairs in my nice, cool basement.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyspanel

Well, after a couple weeks of tinkering a bit each day, the star ceiling is pretty much done. I don't have any pictures at the moment - I promise to get a couple snapped in the next day or so and get them posted.

I also want to wrap some quarter round and get it up to cover the gap between the soffit and the panels - it is not big at all, but I thought it would make for a better transition from ceiling to soffit.

On a side note, I have discovered the one fail point to doing as much of this build as I can myself. My wife nows believes that I can do everything and my "honey-do" list has grown exponentially. The reason it took a couple weeks to get the ceiling done was that I spent my days repairing the deck, swapping out faucet fixtures, and the like. She even went so far as to say "can we replace the kitchen sink?"......... :doh::gulp: 

Next up - light trays.........


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> On a side note, I have discovered the one fail point to doing as much of this build as I can myself. My wife nows believes that I can do everything and my "honey-do" list has grown exponentially. The reason it took a couple weeks to get the ceiling done was that I spent my days repairing the deck, swapping out faucet fixtures, and the like. She even went so far as to say "can we replace the kitchen sink?"......... :doh::gulp:


:rofl: The price you pay for building your own theatre!! :joke:


----------



## Owen Bartley

Joe, sorry to hear your wife has found out that you're handy! lol. I'm lucky, mine is still skeptical of my abilities.

The star ceiling looks great, and I like the innovative hanging system. I can't wait to see how it all comes together in the end. Keep up the good work and don't let those side projects get in the way!


----------



## ALMFamily

Owen Bartley said:


> Joe, sorry to hear your wife has found out that you're handy! lol. I'm lucky, mine is still skeptical of my abilities.
> 
> The star ceiling looks great, and I like the innovative hanging system. I can't wait to see how it all comes together in the end. Keep up the good work and don't let those side projects get in the way!


Thanks Owen! I have gotten myself used to picking away at it a bit each day - and then every once in a while I get a full day and scurry to get a bunch done!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyspanel

Some final pictures of the star ceiling - unfortunately, I could not get any decent pictures with the lights off no matter what setting I tried on the camera.


----------



## raZorTT

Great job Joe! How many hours in total do you think you have spent working on the star ceiling

Cheers
Simon


----------



## ALMFamily

raZorTT said:


> Great job Joe! How many hours in total do you think you have spent working on the star ceiling
> 
> Cheers
> Simon


Hey Simon! Good to hear from you! 

Thanks - I would say probably no more than 25 hours total - it really went pretty smoothly once I had a system in place.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Time to catch back up with where I am - I started working on the light trays. After reading through a few other builds to get some ideas on how they were constructed, I decided to build mine just a bit differently than I had seen. I wanted to incorporate some black GOM into the tray to pull the light tray together with the soffits and side walls.

To get the width I wanted from the soffit, I ripped a 2x3 in half and screwed it to the bottom of the soffit:










I then grabbed some rope lights and a spare piece of OSB. I played with different depths to figure out how high to go and settled on about 4". I purchased some 3/8" CDX and ripped it into 4' lengths:










Next, I cut strips of GOM into 4' lengths about 3.5" wide:










Then, I stapled the GOM onto the CDX across the bottom of the front side starting about 1.5" from the top:










Then, I flipped it over, pulled it taut and stapled it to the back:










Finally, I nailed it to the ripped 2x3:










I had purchased some oak trim and stained it in advance. I cut it to length and used wire nails to put it on the ripped CDX panels aligning it with the top of the CDX:










Once I got to a corner, I made a shallow cut in the trim as wide as the end of the trim and used a chisel to knock the ends off which allowed for a fairly clean joint:










I am still working on the side rails. Once those are done, I will be doing the underside - pics to follow.......


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> ALMFamilyspanel
> 
> Some final pictures of the star ceiling - unfortunately, I could not get any decent pictures with the lights off no matter what setting I tried on the camera.


It looks like an overcast stormy night Joe!  It is very difficult to get a good picture when photographing black..The only successful way I know is to keep your internal lighting low and use a long exposure..and don't use the flash..


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> I then grabbed some rope lights and a spare piece of OSB. I played with different depths to figure out how high to go and settled on about 4". I purchased some 3/8" CDX and ripped it into 4' lengths:


Is that 4" below the top of the moulding, or 4" down from the ceiling?
The black GOM finishes it off nicely..:T


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> It looks like an overcast stormy night Joe!  It is very difficult to get a good picture when photographing black..The only successful way I know is to keep your internal lighting low and use a long exposure..and don't use the flash..


Thanks Prof - I will have to see if I can figure out how to do that. It is my wife's camera.... :R



Prof. said:


> Is that 4" below the top of the moulding, or 4" down from the ceiling?
> The black GOM finishes it off nicely..:T


Thanks! It is actually a 4" wide piece of CDX - it puts it about 6" below the ceiling.


----------



## Prof.

That's about the same distance down from the ceiling as mine..Should look good! :T


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> That's about the same distance down from the ceiling as mine..Should look good! :T


Now, I just need to figure out the camera so I can take pics!

I stained the pieces I am planning to use for the underside of the soffits today - hopefully I can get some up this weekend after camping.

I also spent a couple hours tonight on my hands and knees scraping the floor in preparation for the Dri-Core. I did not realize how much mud I had splattered on the floor!


----------



## jgourlie

ALMFamily said:


> Now, I just need to figure out the camera so I can take pics!
> 
> I stained the pieces I am planning to use for the underside of the soffits today - hopefully I can get some up this weekend after camping.
> 
> I also spent a couple hours tonight on my hands and knees scraping the floor in preparation for the Dri-Core. I did not realize how much mud I had splattered on the floor!


It's amazing how much mud get's on the floor...I had to scrape mine like 3 times...I kept finding more mud I didn't see the first time or the second time....well you get the idea


----------



## ALMFamily

jgourlie said:


> It's amazing how much mud get's on the floor...I had to scrape mine like 3 times...I kept finding more mud I didn't see the first time or the second time....well you get the idea


No kidding! I knew I was messy, but oh my goodness, not THAT messy!


----------



## PTAaron

Nice work on the ceiling!


----------



## ALMFamily

PTAaron said:


> Nice work on the ceiling!


Thanks Aaron!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

The light trays are done - I just have a little putty / filler work to do. I really like how they turned out! Here are a couple pictures:




























I wanted to break up the GOM a little bit and cover my seams, so I decided to take a piece of my trim and rip a strip off of it. It did a really nice job of breaking it up:




























I also tried to take a couple pictures with the lights off - here is what I came up with. The first two were taken from the floor:



















These last two were taken from a step-stool:








\











I picked up the Dri-Core and concrete sealer. I am going to try to get the concrete sealer on before we leave to go camping AGAIN this weekend so it can cure while we are gone.


----------



## Prof.

That looks GREAT Joe!..Very nicely done..:TT
The stars really look like they're suspended in space!


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> That looks GREAT Joe!..Very nicely done..:TT
> The stars really look like they're suspended in space!


Thanks Prof!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Wow - it has been a busy 3 weeks with absolutely no HT progress. On the plus side, I stripped my pontoon boat down and redid the carpeting, cleaned the toons, and such so it was not a complete bust.  Of course, the fishing was not all that great although I did catch my 1st Northern - only a 20" - and a real nice 17" small mouth bass.

On to the project - I sealed the cracks and filled the holes in the floor with a concrete sealer / filler.










After it dried, I started laying the Dri-Core:




















Hoping to get it finished in the next couple of days.......

Oh, and when I was on vacation, I got to see my oldest son given the hamster treatment! :rofl:


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Question for you all on riser construction - I am thinking since I am doing a Dri-Core floor, there is no need to use AC2 (green treated) lumber. Does that make sense?

Also, IIRC, the suggested building method is to put roofing felt on the floor and build the riser on top of that - I am just wondering why. Anyone?


----------



## kadijk

I wouldn't use green treated in your case. Normal spruce or fir is fine. And I can't think of any reason to paper under the riser. I do remember Brian suggesting insulating the whole thing though, to reduce any modal ringing(?). Looking good BTW. You're getting close!


----------



## ALMFamily

kadijk said:


> I wouldn't use green treated in your case. Normal spruce or fir is fine. And I can't think of any reason to paper under the riser. I do remember Brian suggesting insulating the whole thing though, to reduce any modal ringing(?). Looking good BTW. You're getting close!


Thanks - I figured there was no reason to use green treat as it is not sitting on the concrete.

I remember reading that as well - insulate it or run the risk of having a huge boom box. 

I was thinking the felt made it so that there was no vibrations between the two surfaces. I was pretty certain I saw somewhere where two layers of OSB are suggested for the top of the riser with felt between - I will have to see if I can find that thread......


----------



## Gregr

Hey Joe,

Moving right along..., I like your choice of finish on the sofit. Nice work.

You do not need pressure treated lumber if there is no direct contact with concrete. but if dri-lock is more expensive than PT 3/4x4 every 2ft on-center (pressure treated strapping) I would use PT strapping, roofing felt paper is not enough moisture barrier and neither is plastic because dew-points are often created in uninsulated areas like your deck framming over concrete and you will develop rot or dry rot over a very long period of time. if you plan on a complete remodel in 20yrs you are all set. 

Yes two layers of decking material with builders paper (rosin paper not roofing felt) in between. the builders paper allows the two layers to bypass one another (there is movement and chaffing/squeaking) without squeaking. 1/2" CDX Plywood covered with rosin paper then 3/4" OSB or (5/8" OSB paper 5/8" OSB)

Looking very nice..., you are so close now. Work carefully, don't ignore safety for working faster. Always remember safety. I hope you are not superstitious. A horse runs stronger when nearing the paddock. When we start feeling we are nearly complete we can get overanxious. enough said.

Have fun though


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Hey Joe,
> 
> Moving right along..., I like your choice of finish on the sofit. Nice work.
> 
> You do not need pressure treated lumber if there is no direct contact with concrete. but if dri-lock is more expensive than PT 3/4x4 every 2ft on-center (pressure treated strapping) I would use PT strapping, roofing felt paper is not enough moisture barrier and neither is plastic because dew-points are often created in uninsulated areas like your deck framming over concrete and you will develop rot or dry rot over a very long period of time. if you plan on a complete remodel in 20yrs you are all set.
> 
> Yes two layers of decking material with builders paper (rosin paper not roofing felt) in between. the builders paper allows the two layers to bypass one another (there is movement and chaffing/squeaking) without squeaking. 1/2" CDX Plywood covered with rosin paper then 3/4" OSB or (5/8" OSB paper 5/8" OSB)
> 
> Looking very nice..., you are so close now. Work carefully, don't ignore safety for working faster. Always remember safety. I hope you are not superstitious. A horse runs stronger when nearing the paddock. When we start feeling we are nearly complete we can get overanxious. enough said.
> 
> Have fun though


Great to hear from you Greg! Thanks for the response - no pressure treated it is. And, thanks for the suggestion on the riser - think I will go with the 2x 5/8 route.

Appreciate the kudos - and I know exactly what you mean. My biggest hurdle will be making sure I don't cut corners as I near the end in an effort to just be done.....


----------



## HTip

It's been a while for me that I was here at the Shack. Summer does that 

You've made some great progress Joe :T and you're nearing the end of your build. I build my riser out of treated wood for moisture purposes and covered that with OSB. Finished it off with a nice carpet. In my build thread you can also see that I filled up the space with glass wool so the riser doesn't act as a sound box


----------



## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> It's been a while for me that I was here at the Shack. Summer does that
> 
> You've made some great progress Joe :T and you're nearing the end of your build. I build my riser out of treated wood for moisture purposes and covered that with OSB. Finished it off with a nice carpet. In my build thread you can also see that I filled up the space with glass wool so the riser doesn't act as a sound box


Good to hear from you Philip! TBH, I went back and looked through your build again to see how you build your riser.... :T


----------



## HTip

ALMFamily said:


> Good to hear from you Philip! TBH, I went back and looked through your build again to see how you build your riser.... :T


Thanks Joe, good to be back! I hope my documenting the build can help you and others. That's what it's there for  I also used my riser for hiding the cables. I don't know if I posted that solution, but it works like a charm.


----------



## duder1982

Very nice work. I really like the star effect but I don't think I could take the time to install it. Keep up the good work.


----------



## ALMFamily

duder1982 said:


> Very nice work. I really like the star effect but I don't think I could take the time to install it. Keep up the good work.


Thanks for checking out my thread - appreciate the kind words!

TBH, it went a lot quicker and smoother than I thought it would - defintely worth it.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

The Dri-Core is completely installed - took a couple days longer than I had hoped, but levelling that stuff out can be hit or miss. 

Here is a pic into the door:










This is going into the AV closet - this part went smoother than I thought it would as I was a bit worried about how the panels would fit:










Here are a couple shots around the room:



















There are a couple spots that I can tell are a bit uneven from the hollow sound I hear when I step on that spot. I am going to see if I can put a little filler in there to fill that gap amd reduce the sound.

Next up - the riser!


----------



## Prof.

Looks like a nice job Joe! :T
Not being very familiar with your building products over there. the Dri-Core looks to be the same as what you call OSB..Is it a similar product?


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Looks like a nice job Joe! :T
> Not being very familiar with your building products over there. the Dri-Core looks to be the same as what you call OSB..Is it a similar product?


Thanks Prof!

The top part of it is very similar - it is the bottom part that makes it very different. I snapped a couple photos of it:




















The bottom is designed to allow for air to be able to flow under the floor to dry out any moisture accumulation. It is pretty much a tongue in groove assembly.


----------



## Owen Bartley

Looking good Joe. Let us know how you feel about the Dri-Core as you're working, I wanted to try it in our basement, but I think I would give up too much height with those thick panels.

Prof., yeah, it's basically OSB bonded to a dimpled plastic that raises the panels up off the ground. If you have leaks or a flood or something it should give you some protection and keep your whole floor from getting too soggy.


----------



## ALMFamily

Owen,

I thought the same thing about the height loss. But, since the panel is less than 1" thick, it really did not make as much of a differnece as I thought it would - and my ceiling height is just under 8' to start. I am 6'3", I dropped the soffits down about 12", and I still can walk upright throughout the entire room. If you have any moisture concerns at all, I think it is worth losing that 3/4" - 7/8".


----------



## Prof.

Wow! that is different than the OSB! What a great idea for preventing moisture build up..
I've never seen anything like that down here..


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Wow! that is different than the OSB! What a great idea for preventing moisture build up..
> I've never seen anything like that down here..


Agreed - IMO it was well worth the $400 I spent to do it - I feel much better about doing a better grade of carpet / pad.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Time for another one of those Joe posts!

I thought I would go into detail about riser construction - I know, boring stuff.......

So, I decided to go with a riser that was 6' deep and 10' across - I can't do a riser that extends across the room as I need a walkway.  Using 2x6s would be too short for the riser IMO, and my ceilings are too short to do 2x10s - so, 2x8s it is! Also, I wanted to add a bit more stained oak to the room, so I am going to wrap the exterior of the riser with oak and stain it the same color as the light tray.

So, here goes - I got 2 2x8x6s for the ends and 7 2x8x10s for the cross pieces. I also got an extra 2x8x10 to use for bracing. I also got 2 1x8x10 unfinished oak boards and 1 1x8x6 unfinished oak piece. First, I cut all the 2x8x10s to 116 1/4". Then, I marked each 12" on both the 2x8x6s and screwed each of the cut 10 footers centered on those marks - except for the 2 outer pieces which were screwed flush with the ends.

Prior to putting the front one on, I cut in the locations for the outlets for the riser accent lighting and the front row of seats. Then, everything was screwed together:






























I grabbed one of the 10' side pieces, and traced the outlet cut-outs on the front piece. I cut them out and then I pre-drilled the oak pieces for brad nails, put some liquid nails on, clamped and nailed on the oak pieces:




















Then, I laid down some roofer felt for separation:










Next, I laid the riser back on top of the felt, cut of the holes to allow the wiring to come into the riser, and slid it all to the wall. I put a piece of insulation in between the riser and the wall to maintain a gap. I grabbed some angle brackets and bracketed the riser to the floor and then siliconed the inside seams:










I then inserted all the gang boxes and wired up all the front side outlets:




























I grabbed some leftover putty pads and wrapped the outlets:










I grabbed some R25 insulation (8" thick) and cut it to fit:










Then, I cut the 1st layer of 5/8" OSB and cut the 3 locations for the outlets on the top of the riser for the 2nd row of seats. I had already run the wiring and laid it on top of the insulation - I then pulled it through each of the cut-outs as I put the OSB down. Oh - I also put a little silicone on top of the riser frame to help seal it a bit before I screwed all the pieces down:










Tomorrow night, I am going to try to get the oak stained and get the 2nd layer of OSB on top of the riser......


----------



## HTip

Very nice job indeed Joe. Looks like you ticked all the boxes. I guess that R25 is some sort of rock wool. Why do you think you need a second layer of OSB? I applied the same OSB and one layer was sufficient.


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## Gregr

HTip said:


> Very nice job indeed Joe. Looks like you ticked all the boxes. I guess that R25 is some sort of rock wool. Why do you think you need a second layer of OSB? I applied the same OSB and one layer was sufficient.


That's a good question. I've always used 1/2" CDX plywood covered with 3/4 particleboard for carpeting and/or 3/4 UL plywood for tile or linoleum with rosin paper between the two. I've also used 3/4" tongue and groove per Gov't spec in subsidized housing. Below is a link showing typical construction. 

http://www.plumcreek.com/Portals/0/downloads/productInfo/R340.pdf 

Questions you might ask yourself before covering the deck with carpet. When you step on the edge of the OSB between the joists do have a springy flexing of the OSB? When you walk across the carpet is it absolutely quiet? How long has the flooring been down? Do you have any nails working their way up into the carpet due to OSB flexing/working?

With a second layer of OSB you will have no future issues even after putting on a few pounds. You could get by with one layer I think..., maybe, but I wouldn't even think of it.


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## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> Very nice job indeed Joe. Looks like you ticked all the boxes. I guess that R25 is some sort of rock wool. Why do you think you need a second layer of OSB? I applied the same OSB and one layer was sufficient.





Gregr said:


> That's a good question. I've always used 1/2" CDX plywood covered with 3/4 particleboard for carpeting and/or 3/4 UL plywood for tile or linoleum with rosin paper between the two. I've also used 3/4" tongue and groove per Gov't spec in subsidized housing. Below is a link showing typical construction.
> 
> http://www.plumcreek.com/Portals/0/downloads/productInfo/R340.pdf
> 
> Questions you might ask yourself before covering the deck with carpet. When you step on the edge of the OSB between the joists do have a springy flexing of the OSB? When you walk across the carpet is it absolutely quiet? How long has the flooring been down? Do you have any nails working their way up into the carpet due to OSB flexing/working?
> 
> With a second layer of OSB you will have no future issues even after putting on a few pounds. You could get by with one layer I think..., maybe, but I wouldn't even think of it.


Greg's response makes a lot more sense than mine will. 

I wanted to add the 2nd layer for two reasons. One, I wanted to be right between 9" and 10" for a riser height. Had I used 2x10s, I would have been over 10" with just one layer of OSB. This way, with the 2 layers and then the carpet, I should be right about 9".

Also, I am planning on putting trim around the riser that is 1" thick (3/4" actually) and 2" deep (1.5"). What I am going to do is trim the 2nd layer of OSB back a bit, lay that oak trim on top of the first layer, and route a "facing" to cover the OSB seams (have not decided on that pattern yet). 

That oak piece will stick up about 1/8" above the 2nd layer. Then, when I have it carpeted, I am going to have a brass divider piece put in to hold the carpet in place right next to the trim.

As I read this, it sounds a bit confusing, but I promise to take pictures as I go along......


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## Gregr

Got it first read. That will look nice, I especially like the brass, with the carpet and stained oak..., nice touch. However two 5/8ths layers is minimal for an interior floor. 

Be sure to overlap all joints (end buts and edge buts) and use ring-shank or annular nails or spiral flooring nails.


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## Prof.

Looks like a nice sturdy construction Joe..Well done! :T


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## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Got it first read. That will look nice, I especially like the brass, with the carpet and stained oak..., nice touch. However two 5/8ths layers is minimal for an interior floor.
> 
> Be sure to overlap all joints (end buts and edge buts) and use ring-shank or annular nails or spiral flooring nails.


Thanks Greg - I will make sure I walk around it myself after it is done giving it the test you had in an earlier post (and "bendy" points) - and, I did not use nails. I used construction screws all the way around. Hopefully, those should hold up. I had planned to make sure not to line up joints - learned that lesson on the walls! 



Prof. said:


> Looks like a nice sturdy construction Joe..Well done! :T


Thanks Prof!


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## Gregr

Wow! That should work quite nicely.


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## HTip

Looks like you thought it all through. I used different timber and that way only one layer OSB was sufficient. It's that that sturdy as yours but that's to let the riser absorb some of the sound. When you make the construction too sturdy it acts like a wall and you've added a reflective surface.


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## ALMFamily

I had thought about using the riser for bass absorption, but I already built the soffits to absorb 20-200 hz. I also read a few different threads suggesting that using a riser that was not built across the entire room as a bass absorber was a bad idea.

Hopefully, with the first row of seats in front of most of the riser, I will not have to worry about a lot of reflection....


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## HTip

ALMFamily said:


> I had thought about using the riser for bass absorption, but I already built the soffits to absorb 20-200 hz. I also read a few different threads suggesting that using a riser that was not built across the entire room as a bass absorber was a bad idea.


Bass absorption is most effective in corners, but that doesn't mean that absorption in other parts of the room don't work. I have a RPG module in the middle of the back wall and it certainly gets the job done. On the other hand it's also designed that way. You will probably still get some absorption with your current construction.



> Hopefully, with the first row of seats in front of most of the riser, I will not have to worry about a lot of reflection....


Depending on the material the chairs will help you or not. Leather seats for example are reflective surfaces so are not preferred when reverb is an issue. Time will tell... 

Either way your room will still be great :T


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## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> Bass absorption is most effective in corners, but that doesn't mean that absorption in other parts of the room don't work. I have a RPG module in the middle of the back wall and it certainly gets the job done. On the other hand it's also designed that way. You will probably still get some absorption with your current construction.
> 
> 
> Depending on the material the chairs will help you or not. Leather seats for example are reflective surfaces so are not preferred when reverb is an issue. Time will tell...
> 
> *Either way your room will still be great :T*


Thanks Philip - always good to have that little pick-me-up!


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

I continued on the riser last night. Since I plan on doing trim around the outside, I marked off lines on 3 sides 2" in from the edge. The trim piece will extend 1.5" over the edge to allow me to put lighting underneath.










Next, I used the roofing felt again to put a layer between the OSB layers:










I cut the OSB to fit in the lines as well as cutting out the locations for the outlets for the motorized recliners and screwed it down:



















After I had each one on, I set the trim piece on just to make sure I was still in line with the marks I drew. I had to do a little trimming with the jigsaw to ensure I stayed straight.

Last, I got all the outlets wired up and tested each one - thankfully, they all worked. 

The current state:



















Next, I will be putting the top trim pieces on - you can see in this picture roughly where they will sit:


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Time to get an update in!

I got the trim pieces put on the riser, stained them, and got 3 coats of poly on them:




















I also received the LED strip lights and installed them under the edge:



















I am going to wait until after the carpet is installed to put the vertical trim pieces on the riser - still trying to decide if I want to use a round-over bit or something else for those pieces.

In a burst of get-it-done-ness, the entry door is hung. I then took the door down to stain it:










I am only doing 2 coats of poly on it (no foot traffic like the riser piece) and the last coat on the final side is drying as I type. I stained the frame a couple days ago and got the poly on that as well. I will be putting it back up tomorrow and installing the handle.

I also got the AV closet door and the sump closet doors framed up, stained, and poly'd those. These are both DIY doors so we had to build the frames in both:

entry and AV closet










AV Closet top










AV Closet bottom










Sump Door w/o stain and door out










Sump Door w/o stain and door in










Sump frame stained










The carpet installer was here today to take measurements - hoping to get the carpet installed in the next couple of weeks - I just want to get the furring strips put up for the trim along the floor before they come for the install - hoping to get it done this weekend.

Tonight, I started playing with the table top router (new and I have never used one before) to get a feel for use as well as helping to decide what bit to use.


----------



## Prof.

Nice work all round Joe! The stained timber looks great! :T
The strip lights have come up a treat as well..How did you get a yellow reflection from the red LED's!? :scratch:


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## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Nice work all round Joe! The stained timber looks great! :T
> The strip lights have come up a treat as well..How did you get a yellow reflection from the red LED's!? :scratch:


Thanks Prof!

I think the reflection off the Dri-Core floor made the pic appear yellow - I assure you it is red! :bigsmile:


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## duder1982

Coming along nicely, before you know it you will be getting carpet then setting down to watch a movie.


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## Gregr

... love the lit deck and the trim ideas. The colors are going to look spectacular. I just got a look at the door you finished and it is spectacular. I am not a big fan of dark stains but allowing for HT needs I guess necessity still inspires great things. That door has amazing contrast and grain structure. I've only seen a few stains that could look that way. Tell me where you found this stain please? That is not a typical color. Is it a gell and stain? Is the door darker than the sofit or is it me?

Looks great! Nice choices, nice work.


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## ALMFamily

duder1982 said:


> Coming along nicely, before you know it you will be getting carpet then setting down to watch a movie.


Thanks - so looking forward to that day!



Gregr said:


> ... love the lit deck and the trim ideas. The colors are going to look spectacular. I just got a look at the door you finished and it is spectacular. I am not a big fan of dark stains but allowing for HT needs I guess necessity still inspires great things. That door has amazing contrast and grain structure. I've only seen a few stains that could look that way. Tell me where you found this stain please? That is not a typical color. Is it a gell and stain? Is the door darker than the sofit or is it me?
> 
> Looks great! Nice choices, nice work.


Thanks Greg - I found the stain at Menards. It is a big box store here in the midwest - much like a HD. The brand name of the stain is called Miniwax Wood Finish and the color is Red Mahogany. I then used the Miniwax Fast Drying Polyurethane. Surprisingly, it is not a gell - just a stain. I started with a brush before someone told me it would turn out mjuch better using a rag - so that is what I used on this.

It did actually turn out a tad darker than the soffit - same color stain used on both. I have a feeling it is because the trim was not sanded like the door was so the door soaked it up a bit better.


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## HTip

Coming along nicely Joe! I particularly like how you managed to hide your plumbing and wiring and the equipment closet. Is the AV closet vented actively? My equipment sometimes gets pretty warm but because of the AV rack that doesn't cause any problems.


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## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> Coming along nicely Joe! I particularly like how you managed to hide your plumbing and wiring and the equipment closet. Is the AV closet vented actively? My equipment sometimes gets pretty warm but because of the AV rack that doesn't cause any problems.


Thanks Philip!

Here is what I ended up doing for the AV closet:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...n/51300-alm-family-ht-room-25.html#post506190

I have that in-line fan pulling air out and then a return vent in the bottom of that closet. It will pull air from the other part of the basement.


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## HTip

I saw the bottom vent but missed the top one  You thought it through :T


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## dguarnaccia

Love the look of your riser with the stained wood and the rope lighting. Very nicely done. Can't wait to get started on my risers this weekend.


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## ALMFamily

dguarnaccia said:


> Love the look of your riser with the stained wood and the rope lighting. Very nicely done. Can't wait to get started on my risers this weekend.


Thanks!


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## PTAaron

Wow! So much progress since I checked in in July... I don't even know where to start other than to say: "It looks awesome!" :T:T:T
The star ceiling looks like it came out great, and the riser looks like it is progressing really nicely. The stained trim around it is a really nice touch, as well as the LED lights!

I remember why I was staying away from this site now - I want to go work on mine again!! :neener: 

Great work!


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## Gregr

Well..., it took a second to load your thread so I was thinking you had carpet and seating and posters on the wall and all....
but I guess its just because the thread is getting long. But you basement is no longer just a basement it is really looking like a theater even without the carpeting. Almost time to hang the doors and bring in the carpet and the equipment.

I can't wait for you get it done..., This is my first build from the begining. I feel I picked a great build to follow. Don't mind me if I get a little anxious for you to finish your build. 

I don't believe you'll have any audio issues to deal with except a short break in of the room itself...,Ha :rofl2::T


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## ALMFamily

PTAaron said:


> Wow! So much progress since I checked in in July... I don't even know where to start other than to say: "It looks awesome!" :T:T:T
> The star ceiling looks like it came out great, and the riser looks like it is progressing really nicely. The stained trim around it is a really nice touch, as well as the LED lights!
> 
> I remember why I was staying away from this site now - I want to go work on mine again!! :neener:
> 
> Great work!


Thanks Aaron!



Gregr said:


> Well..., it took a second to load your thread so I was thinking you had carpet and seating and posters on the wall and all....
> but I guess its just because the thread is getting long. But you basement is no longer just a basement it is really looking like a theater even without the carpeting. Almost time to hang the doors and bring in the carpet and the equipment.
> 
> I can't wait for you get it done..., This is my first build from the begining. I feel I picked a great build to follow. Don't mind me if I get a little anxious for you to finish your build.
> 
> I don't believe you'll have any audio issues to deal with except a short break in of the room itself...,Ha :rofl2::T


So glad you are still following along Greg!

I got my carpet ordered so I should have it installed in a couple weeks. I really need to get another update done as I have been picking away at it a bit each day - I will try to get something up tomorrow.


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## devildog1679

Can't wait to see this in person, though it may give me ideas I can't afford


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## ALMFamily

devildog1679 said:


> Can't wait to see this in person, though it may give me ideas I can't afford


On the plus side, the Packer game was totally worth it! :bigsmile:

And, I am WAY behind on my update. I promise to get one in real soon......


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## Gregr

Joe, are you finished with your Theater Build??????? Or enough to have company for the game anyway? You must be close if not, done. 

WoW..., 25oo++ posts, I never noticed until the "Moderator" sub-title appeared. In a little over a year. That's more than a couple a day. Hooooooolllly. That has to be some kinda record. I haven't been looking but that has to be up there with Sonnie, Dale and JJ I would think. 

Anyway I can't wait to see some pics of the finished product. You've incorporated some unique and distinctive ideas you should be pleased.


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## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Joe, are you finished with your Theater Build??????? Or enough to have company for the game anyway? You must be close if not, done.
> 
> WoW..., 25oo++ posts, I never noticed until the "Moderator" sub-title appeared. In a little over a year. That's more than a couple a day. Hooooooolllly. That has to be some kinda record. I haven't been looking but that has to be up there with Sonnie, Dale and JJ I would think.
> 
> Anyway I can't wait to see some pics of the finished product. You've incorporated some unique and distinctive ideas you should be pleased.


Nope, not even close unfortunately. Alex only lives about 20 minutes from me so he was going to swing by to check out the build so far. I was on my way to the Packers / Saints game (my mother-in-law has season tickets) so we have to reschedule.

LOL - I am nowhere close to those guys - Sonnie has almost 20k!

I really am hoping to have the room useable by the end of the year - not done by any stretch of the imagination, but at least where I could take in a movie. I finally got my pics together - update coming today!


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## Gregr

Yeah Munnnn!!! Love the pictures. Did you know that for $10-15 dollars you can buy a couple of 250 or 500 watt photo bulbs (5200-5600K (kelvin) with the same size screw base as a regular lamp bulb. Be careful the lamp cord does not overheat. Just a suggestion. I've noticed your pics are dark, this will help you take great photo's. :spend: It is always something.


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## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

About time I got an update done! So, last we saw I had got the doors hung and the framing stained. I made a choice quite a while ago to get the door jambs and bottom from The Soundproofing Company to replace the jambs on the entry door. These are designed to seal the cracks to help keep the room pressurized. It took me a while - mainly because I had to cut them to fit and I was really nervous about it (I must have measured at LEAST 20 times!) - but they are now in:




















As they are silver and really stand out, I decided to paint them black to help the disappear a bit better:










I just need to finish up the side that faces into the room now - I still have to poly the door frame so I am going to do that after so I can tape it off:










I have the front corner bass traps all set to go as well. In order to fit the screen in, I decided to go with 12x12x17 instead of 17x17x24 (saw that size suggested in another thread) as that gives me a little room to be able to frame out my DIY screen. Construction was pretty straightforward and easy. Here they are set to be covered:










I then broke out the stapler and voila! They are covered:

Front Left










Front Right










Screen Wall










Now, someone may be asking "what is that white cord hanging out of there?" Well, it is the cord for the access lighting I am going to put behind the screen. Hopefully, it turns out how I want or I am going to have to dig that cord out. 

Let's see - ah yes - I also got all the furring strips up on the walls that will allow me to put 703 on the walls for reflections, etc and then cover it up with GOM. 



















I am planning on covering the bottom (bottom rail to chair rail) with black GOM. I have not set on a color for the top yet - I am leaning toward a dark gray atm - so I am going to see if I can get a few samples.

Oh, and the carpet is set to be installed tomorrow morning! That should pretty much bring me up to date - I will post pics once the carpet is finished.


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## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Yeah Munnnn!!! Love the pictures. Did you know that for $10-15 dollars you can buy a couple of 250 or 500 watt photo bulbs (5200-5600K (kelvin) with the same size screw base as a regular lamp bulb. Be careful the lamp cord does not overheat. Just a suggestion. I've noticed your pics are dark, this will help you take great photo's. :spend: It is always something.


Good point - I have a couple of work lights down there I should really turn on when taking pictures......


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## Prof.

Some nice progress there Joe!..
The timber stain colour on the door looks really nice!! :T


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## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Some nice progress there Joe!..
> The timber stain colour on the door looks really nice!! :T


Thanks Prof!


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## tonyvdb

Oh the anticipation of it being done! Its getting closer and looks fantastic Joe


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## ALMFamily

tonyvdb said:


> Oh the anticipation of it being done! Its getting closer and looks fantastic Joe


Thanks Tony!


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## JBrax

Your room is coming along nicely Joe. Good job.


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## ALMFamily

JBrax said:


> Your room is coming along nicely Joe. Good job.


Thanks Jeff! Carpet this morning - so excited!


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## ALMFamily

And, let there be carpeting!

In the entry door:










From behind the riser:










Close-up of the pattern:










Toward the screen wall:










Looking back from the screen wall:











It turned out like Tony the Tiger - GRRRRREAT! :yay2:


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## bpape

Looking good!


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## JBrax

Very nice choice with the carpet Joe. Doesn't seem as though you've got much further to go before completion.


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## Todd Anderson

Carpet looks great! Like the color/pattern. Perfect choice


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## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> And, let there be carpeting!
> 
> In the entry door:


WOW!! That carpet is a real standout!! A most unusual effect in this shot of what looks like depressions in the carpet!!


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## ALMFamily

bpape said:


> Looking good!


Thanks Bryan! Have a great time at RMAF - wish I were going but we will be at Disney!



JBrax said:


> Very nice choice with the carpet Joe. Doesn't seem as though you've got much further to go before completion.


Thanks Jeff! I set up the projector in there last night to play and get a screen size in mind - I could not get the wife and kids to come out! I am hoping for the end of the year for useability - we shall see!



27dnast said:


> Carpet looks great! Like the color/pattern. Perfect choice


Thanks mate! This was the one my wife liked the most as well - that was her one input in the room... 



Prof. said:


> WOW!! That carpet is a real standout!! A most unusual effect in this shot of what looks like depressions in the carpet!!


Thanks Prof! I am still trying to get used to that - it looks like there are 2 shades of the grey! :bigsmile:


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## Owen Bartley

Joe, the corner traps and screen wall look great, and I really like your choice of carpet. Its kind of fun and different, without being too far on the crazy side. It also looks great with the trim work you've done. Keep it up...


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## ALMFamily

Owen Bartley said:


> Joe, the corner traps and screen wall look great, and I really like your choice of carpet. Its kind of fun and different, without being too far on the crazy side. It also looks great with the trim work you've done. Keep it up...


Thanks Owen!


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## mechman

Looking good Joe!


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## ALMFamily

mechman said:


> Looking good Joe!


Thanks Mech!


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## HTip

Again some great progress. Nice corner traps, carpet in (looks nice too) and doors painted :T

I was wondering what that phone was doing there. It looks like it is there to stay. Order room service?


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## BD55

HTip said:


> I was wondering what that phone was doing there. It looks like it is there to stay. Order room service?


:laugh: I had the same thought. I thought, "wow, that's a nice little dedicated cubby for the phone!"

I really like the carpet; it's totally different than what you normally see, and personally I like that it's a little more subdued and dare I say, sophisticated? This is going to be one saweet theater, nice work!


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## Gregr

Wow, its lookin like something now. Black GOM on the walls make all of the connections . set up the furniture set up projector and screen, speakers, cook up some popcorn and you are there. anything missing? Yeaow these walls are very sophisticated treatments. 

Do you have a sense of how well contained the sound is with all of you prep work. Then what about absorption or are the walls mostly diffusion. Could you help me understand the numbers on the wall system. I get the sheetrock hanging on the rails and clips gives you an isolated room, but the double layers of sheetrock with green goop does what for what freq. and now finishing with Black GOM does what for what freq? Help??? 

Looks great and the carpet is a nice reflection of the star lit ceiling. Nice!!!


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## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> Again some great progress. Nice corner traps, carpet in (looks nice too) and doors painted :T
> 
> I was wondering what that phone was doing there. It looks like it is there to stay. Order room service?





BD55 said:


> :laugh: I had the same thought. I thought, "wow, that's a nice little dedicated cubby for the phone!"
> 
> I really like the carpet; it's totally different than what you normally see, and personally I like that it's a little more subdued and dare I say, sophisticated? This is going to be one saweet theater, nice work!


Thanks guys! Actually, the only reason the phone is there is because it has an intercom function. My wife got tired of having to come downstairs to get my attention because I could not hear her when she yelled from the top of the stairs! :bigsmile:



Gregr said:


> Wow, its lookin like something now. Black GOM on the walls make all of the connections . set up the furniture set up projector and screen, speakers, cook up some popcorn and you are there. anything missing? Yeaow these walls are very sophisticated treatments.
> 
> Do you have a sense of how well contained the sound is with all of you prep work. Then what about absorption or are the walls mostly diffusion. Could you help me understand the numbers on the wall system. I get the sheetrock hanging on the rails and clips gives you an isolated room, but the double layers of sheetrock with green goop does what for what freq. and now finishing with Black GOM does what for what freq? Help???
> 
> Looks great and the carpet is a nice reflection of the star lit ceiling. Nice!!!


Thanks Greg! The phone being in the room is probably a good indicator of the sound isolation - I cannot hear my wife when she calls down from the top of the stairs if I am in the room with an iPod playing.

Here is my thinking on the walls:

The 2x sheetrock really does not change the frequency IMO - it only helps with the sound isolation. I am going to use 2" insulation on the walls for sound absorbtion (not all over - plan on working with Bryan on this) and then cover the entire wall with GOM - black on the bottom and grey on top. I don't think the GOM serves any acoustical purpose other than allowing sound to pass through to be absorbed by the insulation behind it. 

As far as bass absorbtion, I have the from corners set up as bass traps and I also made the soffits able to absorb from 20-200 Hz.

I have not started to think about diffusion yet - but I am pretty certain that is mostly on the back walls.


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## HTip

Great story  My wife comes down to the basement when she needs me 

When you have the choice and to prevent the (stereo)sound from sounding too dry/dead, diffusion is offenly applied to the first wall reflection points from the fronts. I did that too and it makes quite the difference.

The frequencies it should cover depends on how much "absorption" you still need. That is were REW comes in


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## Gregr

Nice, nicely done. So beyond room isolation the soffit and bass traps are typical room needs. Next are then first reflections. But beyond all of that the next phase of room treatment is dependent upon room furnishings and speaker placement and type of speakers used and REW testing.

Thanks for the numbers on the soffit. Well I believe you will not have any low freq ringing in your basement and your LFE should be tight and natural. You have the problem areas under control, now its tweaking.

Regards


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

It has been a while since my last update - we took the kids to Disney and I am just now starting to get back on the HT. I am doing a DIY screen, and I started putting it together. I will post up some pictures later......


----------



## Prof.

Got any money left after Disney!!


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Got any money left after Disney!!


Not much!!


----------



## tonyvdb

I totally love the carpet choice Joe! It so has the look of a theater


----------



## ALMFamily

tonyvdb said:


> I totally love the carpet choice Joe! It so has the look of a theater


Thanks Tony - ironically enough, it was the one my wife liked the most which of course meant I had to go with it!


----------



## Todd Anderson

If you don't mind me asking... Where did you order that carpet? It definitely has that commercial theater look (I don't mean that in a bad way... It's beautiful)


----------



## ALMFamily

27dnast said:


> If you don't mind me asking... Where did you order that carpet? It definitely has that commercial theater look (I don't mean that in a bad way... It's beautiful)


I got it at my local Coyle Carpet One. Honestly, I was quite pleased to find it there.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

So, I have been picking away a bit at a time so I have not felt the need to update my thread. Now, I have a whole bunch to catch up on! :rolleyesno:

So, first off I made the decision to go with a DIY screen using C&S Ultra for a paint mix. To this end, I decided to follow pretty close to what Mech did for his DIY screen (linked in the DIY sticky). I used the suggested 1x4 poplar to build the frame. 

Then, in one of the decisions that I will look back on and go :rolleyesno:, I decided to rout in a groove before I glued the piece of Sintra to the frame and put rope lighting in that groove:





































The thought was that it would be a really neat effect having the light shining through the screen. I then glued the piece of Sintra to my frame (after cutting it - the frame size is roughly 41"x92") using Liquid Nails:



















Then, I grabbed a bunch of containers, some blocks, and put them on to help hold it together. I used clamps in strategic locations as well:










Then, I made my own hangers and screwed one set to the back of the frame and the opposing set to the wall. Here is a picture of one of the hangers:










Next, I put 2 layers of primer on (as suggested in the sticky) and that is where it is at right now:










I have everything I need to do the finish paint on the screen, so I set myself up a little "painting" station:










I practiced a bit on some scrap drywall and learned a valuable lesson - always make sure to strain any paint you are going to put in your sprayer! Since I forgot to mention it, I have never used a sprayer before so I got one from Harbor Freight. I am using my neighbor's air compressor.

So, tomorrow I plan on making the C&S Ultra up and starting to finish painting the screen.

I also started getting the front wall ready to be finished. I built frames around the outlets so that I can cut the 703 around them and then staple the GOM to the frame. Once the stapling is done, I am going to cover the seams with some strips stained the same as the rest of the room. You can see one of the blocks in this pic:










I also started pulling wires. One lesson learned here - never use conduit smaller than 1". I had a few 1/2" runs, and they were a bear to pull more than one wire through. However, the rear and side surrounds, both rear sub connection points, the buttkicker and network connection, and front RCA sub lines are run at this point:














































I was not worried about making them all black as most will be located inside columns.

Oh, and the closet is starting to look like that scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark with all the snakes!










I placed another order with Monoprice for more speaker wire and CAT6 line to finish off the front wall for wiring.

That should just about catch me up - sorry for the extremely long post!


----------



## duder1982

It's coming along cant wait to see the final product. I need to do some reading on that diy screen for a buddy of mine. I wonder what the cost/pic difference is then to one of jamestown's screens.


----------



## BD55

Maybe I missed it, but why are you disenchanted with your choice to put the rope lighting in the frame? I thought that was a pretty cool idea.


----------



## Prof.

Very nice job on the screen making Joe! :T One thing though..


> The thought was that it would be a really neat effect having the light shining through the screen. I then glued the piece of Sintra to my frame (after cutting it - the frame size is roughly 41"x92") using Liquid Nails:


How will the ropelight shine through the screen? Isn't Sintra a solid opaque material?


----------



## ALMFamily

duder1982 said:


> It's coming along cant wait to see the final product. I need to do some reading on that diy screen for a buddy of mine. I wonder what the cost/pic difference is then to one of jamestown's screens.


Thanks - I am not sure on the cost of the Jamestown, but I have just a little under $100 in the screen so far. As far as the PQ, the biggest caveat IMO is the ability to change the paint if I do not like the C&S Ultra.



BD55 said:


> Maybe I missed it, but why are you disenchanted with your choice to put the rope lighting in the frame? I thought that was a pretty cool idea.





Prof. said:


> Very nice job on the screen making Joe! :T One thing though..
> 
> How will the ropelight shine through the screen? Isn't Sintra a solid opaque material?


Thanks!

Prof hit on it here - I do get a bit of light showing through, but it is such that I can not see it all that well and what I can see basically looks like the LED showing through. Ah well, when I decide to make a new one I will do something different.


----------



## Gregr

Joe,
What about poking pinholes or a little larger 1/16th (equal distance and using a straight edge)? It would work best if you place the hole directly over the bulb, but with rope lights it is all reasonably bright isn't it? 

Joe you are kidding us with your apology's right??? Speaking for myself "long is boring only when reading everything you have to read and agree to for a credit card" There is nothing boring about HT. A long post is like communing with the god's and you have a chance to spend more time with it. I am not saturated yet. 

I am a little anxious though. With all of the prep you've done I am very excite to read about the result and to see the result as well. You have a supremely well designed and a very accomplished looking HT. Thank God for Bryan but you've done well in your own choices and personal education.

Thanks for allowing me to observe and learn as well.


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Joe,
> What about poking pinholes or a little larger 1/16th (equal distance and using a straight edge)? It would work best if you place the hole directly over the bulb, but with rope lights it is all reasonably bright isn't it?
> 
> Joe you are kidding us with your apology's right??? Speaking for myself "long is boring only when reading everything you have to read and agree to for a credit card" There is nothing boring about HT. A long post is like communing with the god's and you have a chance to spend more time with it. I am not saturated yet.
> 
> I am a little anxious though. With all of the prep you've done I am very excite to read about the result and to see the result as well. You have a supremely well designed and a very accomplished looking HT. Thank God for Bryan but you've done well in your own choices and personal education.
> 
> Thanks for allowing me to observe and learn as well.


Thanks again for following along!

That is an interesting idea with doing pinholes - I will give that one some thought - thanks!


----------



## ALMFamily

Note to others..... never paint a screen during box elder bug season. I have already pulled 3 of them out of the paint. :rant:

3 coats down - 3 to go....


----------



## Picture_Shooter

ALMFamily said:


> Note to others..... never paint a screen during box elder bug season. I have already pulled 3 of them out of the paint. :rant:
> 
> 3 coats down - 3 to go....


Wow Joe - you done so much and everything is looking wonderful!! 
When are you going to be done? Just need to know because I may need help with mine. Wanna fly out to TX? We have some amazing weather here in the winter


----------



## Wardsweb

Joe - this is really coming out fantastic. I know you can hardly contain yourself. Patience my son, good things come to those who wait.

Mike - let me know if you're ever down San Antonio way. You'll have to stop by. I'm just off I35.


----------



## ALMFamily

Picture_Shooter said:


> Wow Joe - you done so much and everything is looking wonderful!!
> When are you going to be done? Just need to know because I may need help with mine. Wanna fly out to TX? We have some amazing weather here in the winter


Thanks Mike! I am hoping to have it at least useable by the end of the year - but I am figuring at least another 6 months before I get it close to where I want it.

Funny - I actually briefly considered coming down to Houston for the GTG at Dale's - until I found out it was a 20 hour drive! 



Wardsweb said:


> Joe - this is really coming out fantastic. I know you can hardly contain yourself. Patience my son, good things come to those who wait.
> 
> Mike - let me know if you're ever down San Antonio way. You'll have to stop by. I'm just off I35.


Thanks Luther - it really has been a lot of fun doing this - this is really my first time for doing a lot of this stuff. I had not even hung drywall before this! :rolleyesno: Fortunately, I have a step-dad who is extremely handy and has helped me past the rough patches along the way. :clap:

And, the screen is painted. It did not turn out too bad - it has a couple blemishes from where I had to pull off box elders, but overall it looks OK which I will take considering it is my first attempt with a sprayer. I will snap a couple photos tomorrow after it finishes drying.


----------



## ALMFamily

Question - is it imperative to get REW readings before putting any treatment in? After all, I have already done the corner traps as well as making the soffits low end absorbers.

I do not have the gear / speakers in the room, but I was thinking about finishing the front wall. I put some 1" OC 703 in the cavities on my DIY screen, and I was going to do 2" over the rest of the wall as it seems like this has been done in most other threads I have read. I am assuming it is to treat the reflections from the rear surrounds.

I guess I am wondering if it would be best to wait to finish the front wall after I am able to get the subs and L/R in there and take some REW results. Thoughts?


----------



## bpape

Front wall should be fine. Readings are nice before too much treatment just to tweak seat, speaker and sub position the best they can be before the treatments start masking things.

Bryan


----------



## ALMFamily

bpape said:


> Front wall should be fine. Readings are nice before too much treatment just to tweak seat, speaker and sub position the best they can be before the treatments start masking things.
> 
> Bryan


Front wall it is then - I was thinking if I got the front wall all good to go, I could move the front speakers and the subs in as they would be "out of the way" so to speak. Plus, then I can start testing with REW! Right after I finish running all the wires of course.....


----------



## Gregr

A drum-roll maestro... if you please....... :innocent:


----------



## mechman

Joe - BuggSlayer. Find it at your local hardware store and use it! I've found that I only have to apply it every other year to keep the Eurasian Lady Beetles and the Box Elders away.


----------



## Picture_Shooter

Wardsweb;560679/ said:


> Mike - let me know if you're ever down San Antonio way. You'll have to stop by. I'm just off I35.



Thank you for the kind offer for the invite. How far are you from Big Lou's Pizza in SA  ?

And like wise for ya if your ever up by Ikea in Round Rock hit me up.

I think i'll be done with my HT hookup / build by Xmas .


----------



## Picture_Shooter

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks Mike! I am hoping to have it at least useable by the end of the year - but I am figuring at least another 6 months before I get it close to where I want it.
> 
> Funny - I actually briefly considered coming down to Houston for the GTG at Dale's - until I found out it was a 20 hour drive!


Still be fun to enjoy some action in your HT room by Xmas!! :T

As for Houston; 20 hour drive is tuff, but I do it at least twice a year when I visit friends up in Colorado.


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> A drum-roll maestro... if you please....... :innocent:


Got a few pictures today before I hung it - and one after it was hung. I am going to attempt to take a few pics tomorrow with content running.



mechman said:


> Joe - BuggSlayer. Find it at your local hardware store and use it! I've found that I only have to apply it every other year to keep the Eurasian Lady Beetles and the Box Elders away.


Thanks - I will have to get some. Normally, they are not so bad but this year they were just awful.


Picture_Shooter said:


> Still be fun to enjoy some action in your HT room by Xmas!! :T
> 
> As for Houston; 20 hour drive is tuff, but I do it at least twice a year when I visit friends up in Colorado.


After hearing that Dale is going to have the LFR1100's set up for the GTG, I am thinking about it again.... :devil:


----------



## Picture_Shooter

ALMFamily said:


> After hearing that Dale is going to have the LFR1100's set up for the GTG, I am thinking about it again.... :devil:



I never heard Axiom speakers, they do like stunningly purdy though 

What other festivities are happening at the Houston GTG?


----------



## Wardsweb

Picture_Shooter said:


> Thank you for the kind offer for the invite. How far are you from Big Lou's Pizza in SA  ?
> 
> And like wise for ya if your ever up by Ikea in Round Rock hit me up.
> 
> I think i'll be done with my HT hookup / build by Xmas .


I do get up to Round Rock a few times a year for an audio group, so I'll add you to the travel options. Shall I bring pizza?



ALMFamily said:


> After hearing that Dale is going to have the LFR1100's set up for the GTG, I am thinking about it again.... :devil:


I'm going to be there. It will give me something to compare my system to.


----------



## dguarnaccia

Looking forward to seeing the finished product! I'm glad I bought mine, that looks a like a fair bit of work. You are a braver man than I


----------



## Dale Rasco

You see? This is how it always starts. I start seeing DG's Guarnaccia Mancave build and see how Joe's build is coming along and suddenly hear that voice in my head that says 'Hmm, my room is really starting to look a bit lacking in the style department'. 'Surely Tina won't mind if I just revamp the decor'. Yep, that's how I always end up sleeping on the couch. Thanks guys! 

Seriously, it's looking real good Joe!


----------



## dguarnaccia

We need a 12 step program Dale


----------



## Gregr

:rofl2:


----------



## duder1982

dguarnaccia said:


> We need a 12 step program Dale


<p> 12 steps to audio nirvana. I couldn't agree more.


----------



## Dale Rasco

12 steps would be great, but we would also have to do all of the octaves for each step... :rolleyesno:


----------



## devildog1679

I was lucky enough to see this build in person today and I have to say is WOW! It looks awesome, the star ceiling is incredible as is the carpeting. The zoned lighting was incredible and the picture quality on that screen was superb. All in all it made me want to spend more money. 

Great work Joe. Can't wait to see the final result.


----------



## ALMFamily

Dale Rasco said:


> You see? This is how it always starts. I start seeing DG's Guarnaccia Mancave build and see how Joe's build is coming along and suddenly hear that voice in my head that says 'Hmm, my room is really starting to look a bit lacking in the style department'. 'Surely Tina won't mind if I just revamp the decor'. Yep, that's how I always end up sleeping on the couch. Thanks guys!
> 
> Seriously, it's looking real good Joe!


Thanks Dale! Just remember - I took all my inspiration from reading through builds here like yours! :clap:



devildog1679 said:


> I was lucky enough to see this build in person today and I have to say is WOW! It looks awesome, the star ceiling is incredible as is the carpeting. The zoned lighting was incredible and the picture quality on that screen was superb. All in all it made me want to spend more money.
> 
> Great work Joe. Can't wait to see the final result.


Thanks Alex - it was great to meet you!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

OK, here are the pictures of the screen I promised a few days ago! The first ones here are after I have it all sprayed:



















Hung in it's final resting place:










I popped in _The Avengers_ and tried to get a couple decent pictures:





































Now, I have not done the final calibration as of yet. I did use the Disney WoW disc when I was flashing movies up on a white sand grit wall. Once the room construction is complete, I will start delving into SpectralCal and dialing in the picture - but, as I said in a different thread, I am thoroughly pleased with how the screen and PQ turned out.

I have now started the front wall completion as well as started to build a DIY AV cart for the closet......


----------



## tonyvdb

Wow Joe, its looking great!! I bet its putting a smile on your face knowing your almost done and can fully enjoy it.


----------



## ALMFamily

tonyvdb said:


> Wow Joe, its looking great!! I bet its putting a smile on your face knowing your almost done and can fully enjoy it.


Thanks Tony! When I had Jill and the kids come down to check it out, all I got was "so when are we going to get sound?" :blink:

And, it really is. I am realling thinking it should be at least useable by the end of the year. Probably not calibrated or treated at all, but at least viewable. :bigsmile:


----------



## Dale Rasco

Man, that cape on Thor does pop out at you!


----------



## tonyvdb

LOL your blessed to have a wife and kids that are allowing you to work on this as time allows. I am off today just sitting down in my theater room listening to music and thinking how I can improve the looks of my room. I have some ideas but will wait till I can afford it.


----------



## Dale Rasco

tonyvdb said:


> LOL your blessed to have a wife and kids that are allowing you to work on this as time allows. I am off today just sitting down in my theater room listening to music and thinking how I can improve the looks of my room. I have some ideas but will wait till I can afford it.


That is scary because I am doing the same exact thing Tony!


----------



## ALMFamily

Dale Rasco said:


> Man, that cape on Thor does pop out at you!


My exact words when I showed it to Jill the first time - the other one was when the army was shown in space and just the blue lights were visible - just so crisp!


----------



## tonyvdb

Dale Rasco said:


> That is scary because I am doing the same exact thing Tony!


:bigsmile: I keep telling myself its ok, when the lights are off you cant see the room and for me the image and sound quality were the most important thing. But then I turn the lights on and say to myself yup gotta do something to make it look like Joes room LOL


----------



## JBrax

That is a stunning picture you have there Joe! I can't wait to progress to a projector and screen. Doing it all yourself. You should be proud and feel a sense of accomplishment when it's finished.


----------



## Dale Rasco

I guess I need to spend the rest of my day calibrating my picture because mine is absolutely horrible looking next to Joe's pictures!


----------



## Prof.

Very nice job on the screen Joe..and the pics look really great! :T
I don't think too much more calibrating will be required!


----------



## Todd Anderson

Hey now! That screen is beautiful! Wow wow and WOW!


----------



## Gregr

... and its a picture of a picture on my picture tv screen. Unbelievably incredibly clear color looks great from here. You could use SpectraCal and calibrate from here. WOW......., Wow
Beautifully detailed picture. Thanks for the sample shots.

Oh. Nice work. Nice choices.


----------



## devildog1679

Dale Rasco said:


> Man, that cape on Thor does pop out at you!


I can attest that in person that red cape does indeed look incredible.


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks everyone! I cannot begin to tell you how much it has helped to keep me churning away having all the support from you all - thanks to you all!


----------



## mechman

:clap:


----------



## BD55

Those are awesome screenshots! Nice work! :T


----------



## 3dbinCanada

Dale Rasco said:


> That is scary because I am doing the same exact thing Tony!


I guees I'm blessed because I cannot afford to improve the room for quite a while.  However, the planned sub ugrade is moving ahead.


----------



## ALMFamily

mechman said:


> :clap:





BD55 said:


> Those are awesome screenshots! Nice work! :T


Thanks guys!! :bigsmile:


----------



## HTip

I'm starting to see a pattern here. I'm a few days offline and when I come back, boom! Joe has made some great progress. Your screen looks made by a professional and the screen shots... What can I say but WOW! :rubeyes:

Your theater's gonna be a great one :TT


----------



## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> I'm starting to see a pattern here. I'm a few days offline and when I come back, boom! Joe has made some great progress. Your screen looks made by a professional and the screen shots... What can I say but WOW! :rubeyes:
> 
> Your theater's gonna be a great one :TT


Thanks Philip!


----------



## kadijk

Nice job Joe. I used the same screen formula, only I rolled it instead of spraying. It's awesome. Your room is definitely shaping up. How do you sleep at night? Pins and needles? Soon it will be thundering bass at your place...


----------



## Picture_Shooter

Joe - Great job on the DIY screen. Picture looks great and that movie sure is an enjoyable one.

Few years back I did a DIY screen. 4x8 (i think the size was) and used Behr SilverScreen paint for an older Optoma DLP and Panasonic LCD PJs I owned and I was very happy with the end results. You can never go wrong with a DIY screen, because if you don't LIKEY, you can always repaint over it


----------



## raZorTT

Great work Joe!

You've made some stellar progress, especially the screen! :T

I love the carpet as well!

Hopefully it's not getting too cold, would hate for that to slow you down 

Cheers,
Simon


----------



## ALMFamily

kadijk said:


> Nice job Joe. I used the same screen formula, only I rolled it instead of spraying. It's awesome. Your room is definitely shaping up. How do you sleep at night? Pins and needles? Soon it will be thundering bass at your place...


Thanks K! The excitement is building in the house - they can all see now roughly what the final room is going to look like and they are all looking forward to the first movie!



Picture_Shooter said:


> Joe - Great job on the DIY screen. Picture looks great and that movie sure is an enjoyable one.
> 
> Few years back I did a DIY screen. 4x8 (i think the size was) and used Behr SilverScreen paint for an older Optoma DLP and Panasonic LCD PJs I owned and I was very happy with the end results. You can never go wrong with a DIY screen, because if you don't LIKEY, you can always repaint over it


Thanks PS - that is exactly why I decided to go DIY - if I did not like the result, I could always do something different. So much harder to return a manufactured screen.... 



raZorTT said:


> Great work Joe!
> 
> You've made some stellar progress, especially the screen! :T
> 
> I love the carpet as well!
> 
> Hopefully it's not getting too cold, would hate for that to slow you down
> 
> Cheers,
> Simon


Thanks Simon! Not too cold at all yet - we are hovering right around the 40 degrees F mark which is actually pretty warm for November. I am so glad I had the garage insulated when I added on to the house - I can actually work outside when it gets chilly.


----------



## sgoss66

Hey ALM, this project is looking just GREAT! I LOVE your stain, and the LED lights around the riser are MOST cool! Your carpet looks GREAT, your screen is looking TERRIFIC...it looks like it won't be TOO much longer, and you'll be enjoying movies!

AWESOME build!

Steve


----------



## ALMFamily

sgoss66 said:


> Hey ALM, this project is looking just GREAT! I LOVE your stain, and the LED lights around the riser are MOST cool! Your carpet looks GREAT, your screen is looking TERRIFIC...it looks like it won't be TOO much longer, and you'll be enjoying movies!
> 
> AWESOME build!
> 
> Steve


Thanks Steve! I have been lucky to this point - everything but one thing has turned out how I envisioned it. Let's hope I have good sound....


----------



## sgoss66

SUPER! What one thing didn't turn out quite as you envisioned?

Steve


----------



## ALMFamily

Backlighting the screen - I routed a groove in the frame and ran rope lighting in the groove. Of course, once I put 2 coats of rolled primer and 6 sprayed coats of C&S, there was no way you were going to see it......

Ah well, se la vi.....


----------



## sgoss66

OOPS! 

Still, that's not a huge thing, though the back-lighted screen would have been pretty cool! 

Steve


----------



## Gregr

Joe, Please tell me what brand and type/model of HDMI cable did you use. Anything special in the run e.g. is it surrounded by insulation to isolate it. Does it run with the Audio cable etc etc?

This is a beautiful picture as far as I can tell from here. I know you invested in a nice DLP and that is part of the equation but you gotta have a decent cable.

Joe I am serious you have a book here. There are many literate people who would rather read a book that learn any other way. You will have to condense though ha ha. Maybe its already been done but not as complete as you have here with glossy photo's and all. I hope you write it. You have the skill


----------



## Gregr

Hello again,

There is a way (always a way, a good carpenter makes art from a mistake). 

In response to the back-lit screen dilemma. It may not be possible to remove the old frame but what about adding to it. Add the second frame layer 1" to 2" in from the edge. Once up on the wall add a light diffusion layer to the edge. This is not the same as through the screen diffused light but edge lit is nice. Although, what about a diffused fiber optic edge surround that picks up light from behind the screen and turns the corner with the light to actually light up the HT with diffused light as planned (kinda)


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> Joe, Please tell me what brand and type/model of HDMI cable did you use. Anything special in the run e.g. is it surrounded by insulation to isolate it. Does it run with the Audio cable etc etc?
> 
> This is a beautiful picture as far as I can tell from here. I know you invested in a nice DLP and that is part of the equation but you gotta have a decent cable.
> 
> Joe I am serious you have a book here. There are many literate people who would rather read a book that learn any other way. You will have to condense though ha ha. Maybe its already been done but not as complete as you have here with glossy photo's and all. I hope you write it. You have the skill


For the projector, nothing special. I ordered all my HDMI cables from Monoprice and have been happy with their performance. I have been using them in my living room system for months. It does run in its own conduit - I will be running nothing else with it as I wanted nothing to potentially affect my picture.

Thanks - I have tried to put as much detail as I could into my posts (for my own benefit as well as the community) but, I tell you, I have had the benefit of reading some really great build threads that helped me make this one what it is. Thanks to everyone else who put the time into doing great build threads - you all helped make my HT what I hope it will be.



Gregr said:


> Hello again,
> 
> There is a way (always a way, a good carpenter makes art from a mistake).
> 
> In response to the back-lit screen dilemma. It may not be possible to remove the old frame but what about adding to it. Add the second frame layer 1" to 2" in from the edge. Once up on the wall add a light diffusion layer to the edge. This is not the same as through the screen diffused light but edge lit is nice. Although, what about a diffused fiber optic edge surround that picks up light from behind the screen and turns the corner with the light to actually light up the HT with diffused light as planned (kinda)


Great ideas! I will mark those - at some point I am going to revisit the screen and try to incorporate some backlighting - but for now, I am going to use this one. My family is on pins and needles waitimg for me to get the room useable. 

As always, thanks for following along!


----------



## Gregr

I got curious, so started to look for fiber optics :rofl: no no no not the way to go.

Clear plastic is expensive. So anyway. If you add a second frame and rope light just on each end, With clear plastic .5"x1.5" to .75"x2" painted screen white except of the light transmissive surfaces (HT facing/leading edge and inside edge) the cost is $40-45 per 8' piece (this is special order already you could cut to length) the cost is why I suggest only the ends.

Just a thought..., I didn't think light transmission had so many diverse products

Here is a link I found they have colored plastics, textured plastics etc etc etc........ 

http://www.interstateplastics.com/C...1121-6p&dim2=1&dim3=120&thickness=0.500&qty=1


----------



## ALMFamily

Gregr said:


> I got curious, so started to look for fiber optics :rofl: no no no not the way to go.
> 
> Clear plastic is expensive. So anyway. If you add a second frame and rope light just on each end, With clear plastic .5"x1.5" to .75"x2" painted screen white except of the light transmissive surfaces (HT facing/leading edge and inside edge) the cost is $40-45 per 8' piece (this is special order already you could cut to length) the cost is why I suggest only the ends.
> 
> Just a thought..., I didn't think light transmission had so many diverse products
> 
> Here is a link I found they have colored plastics, textured plastics etc etc etc........
> 
> http://www.interstateplastics.com/Clear-Acrylic-Cast-Paper-Sheet-ACRCLCP.php?sku=ACRCLCP&vid=201211121121-6p&dim2=1&dim3=120&thickness=0.500&qty=1


Thanks for the link Greg! I will check it out.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Alrighty, where did I leave off? Ah yes, I took pictures of the screen and a few Avengers shots. So, I continued to pluck away over the week, and then I got down to brass tax this weekend. Here is what I got done!

I am pretty sure I mentioned it before, but I decided to do a DIY AV rack for the closet. I decided to go with edge glued pine for the shelves, and I picked up bar stock to do the supports. As I have a cabinet in the top of the closet where all the wiring landed, I decided to go with 2 different sizes for shelves so I could take full advantage of the space. I also varied the height between shelves to account for the different gear and their need for breathing space.

To get started, I cut the edge glued pine and sanded it. After I sanded it, I put two coats of paint on - I decided on a semi gloss black leather:










Then, I washed the grease off the bar stock and put a primer coat on it. After it dried, I painted it black as well:










I then started to put a poly coat on the shelves - in the end, I ended up putting on 5 coats. I really like how the finish turned out:










My step-dad brought up his drill press and we located all the holes for the shelving and drilled them out. We then started to assemble it. We used some of the 703 to help gauge the spacing of the shelves and screwed it all together. To help support the weight, we put angle brackets on the bottom shelf and bolted the bar stock to it.



















Here are a couple pics of the end result. I will try to get a better photo up later:



















I also got the wiring for the front ran:










I then got it all terminated and got the plate put up:










After I got that done, I got the 2" OC 703 cut and put that up:



















Then, I cut the GOM and covered the front wall:










I had also ordered a patch panel from Monoprice and I got that installed in my cabinet in the AV closet as well as started to terminate some of the lines before I ran out of banana plugs:



















Lastly, I ordered some blue LED lights for the AV closet with a dimmer switch and I got those put up as well:











And, that should catch me up through yesterday. Apologies - I will try to update more often so I do not make such long posts! :bigsmile:


----------



## Owen Bartley

Nice work on the rack, Joe, I wasn't expecting it to be that tall for some reason. How's the lateral stability? I suppose it will be attached to the wall, so that won't be important in the long run, and it's going to look great installed. I also really like the patch panel idea for speaker connections, that's going to look very clean.

Notice any difference in the sound of the room after putting up the OC703?


----------



## mcascio

Coming together nicely Joe! Keep up the great work.


----------



## ALMFamily

Owen Bartley said:


> Nice work on the rack, Joe, I wasn't expecting it to be that tall for some reason. How's the lateral stability? I suppose it will be attached to the wall, so that won't be important in the long run, and it's going to look great installed. I also really like the patch panel idea for speaker connections, that's going to look very clean.
> 
> Notice any difference in the sound of the room after putting up the OC703?


Thanks Owen! I ended up needing to go that tall since I have 4 amps as well as the other assorted gear - I also made 2 extra spots for future potential additions. I was pleasantly surprised - I thought there might be a bit of wobble, but using 1/4" bar stock made it really sturdy. I don't currently plan to attach it to the wall - although that could change of course once I start loading gear on it.

The patch panel is working great - my only concern is going to be the wires running to the bottom shelf. Once I roll the rack in, I need to find a way to retract the wires or I will run the risk of running them over. I am going to rig up some kind of spring function that will retract them into the air as I push the rack in.

I dont have anything set-up in there to test the sound - I asked Bryan if he thought it would be an issue to finish the front wall before running tests and he thought it would not be a problem since I would more than likely be treating it anyway to cancel reflections. Once the front wall is done, the speakers are going in and testing will commence! :bigsmile:



mcascio said:


> Coming together nicely Joe! Keep up the great work.


Thanks Mario!


----------



## Prof.

Excellent work alround Joe!!:T
That is a BIG rack!!! I'm concerned about the stability as well..What flooring surface will it be standing on?
The blue LED's add a nice touch..:T


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Excellent work alround Joe!!:T
> That is a BIG rack!!! I'm concerned about the stability as well..What flooring surface will it be standing on?
> The blue LED's add a nice touch..:T


Ok, now you guys have got me worried! I was planning on getting a hard rubber mat (like you might see under a piece of exercise equipment) to keep the wheels from sinking into the carpet and making it impossible to move.

Do you think it lacks lateral stability like Owen said as well? I was thinking that 3 lengths of bar stock to a side would provide enough, but you guys have really got me wondering. I did bolt the bottom to a piece of angle iron for more stability. I also used 3' sections instead of 6' sections. I then cut a 8" length and overlapped the 2 3' sections and bolted those together as well (used 3 bolts there). Each shelf is screwed to the bak stock in 6 spots except for the top ones which are held by 4. Of course, the lighter gear will be up there.

I think I will slowly load up the gear on it tomorrow and see how it holds up......


----------



## Prof.

Joe..you won't have a problem providing you don't have the casters on carpet or rubber!..They will sink in with all that weight and it will be difficult to roll out the rack..
If the amps are on the bottom shelves, that should keep the whole unit stable and not tip over..

I can't recall if you had that equipment area carpeted or not, but if it is just put down a thick sheet of MDF, and you won't have any rolling problems..


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Joe..you won't have a problem providing you don't have the casters on carpet or rubber!..They will sink in with all that weight and it will be difficult to roll out the rack..
> If the amps are on the bottom shelves, that should keep the whole unit stable and not tip over..
> 
> I can't recall if you had that equipment area carpeted or not, but if it is just put down a thick sheet of MDF, and you won't have any rolling problems..


I was planning on putting all the amps and the AVR on the bottom so it will be pretty bottom heavy.

It is currently carpeted. I think I will do that - I have a piece of 3/4" MDF - I can cut an angle on it to make it easier to roll on and off. I can paint it black so it is not visible as well.......

Thanks for the suggestion Prof!


----------



## kadijk

Hey Joe. Nice job on the rack. For the base, you could try using a couple pieces of metal channel that the wheels could roll in but not roll out of. That would keep them floating above the carpet but still in control directionally. Just another idea...


----------



## ALMFamily

kadijk said:


> Hey Joe. Nice job on the rack. For the base, you could try using a couple pieces of metal channel that the wheels could roll in but not roll out of. That would keep them floating above the carpet but still in control directionally. Just another idea...


That's a good idea - but I cannot recall seeing something like that at my local HD or Menards. Do you happen to know of a link to something like that so I can get a visual?


----------



## ALMFamily

OK, I was able to find what you were talking about - they carry it at Grainger. Thanks again for the suggestion!


----------



## Owen Bartley

Joe, if you find that the rack has more lateral movement than you'd like once you get it loaded up, you can probably stabilize it with a bar (or several bars in smaller sections, as wiring clearance needs dictate) up the back. That way you would have your existing supports | | and also be running a bar perpendicular to them _ which should eliminate most of the flex.


----------



## ALMFamily

Owen Bartley said:


> Joe, if you find that the rack has more lateral movement than you'd like once you get it loaded up, you can probably stabilize it with a bar (or several bars in smaller sections, as wiring clearance needs dictate) up the back. That way you would have your existing supports | | and also be running a bar perpendicular to them _ which should eliminate most of the flex.


Thanks Owen - that is a good suggestion. I am going to try to load it up later today and see what happens......


----------



## HTip

Impressive equipment rack Joe. Is the use of wheels to be able to reach the back of the equipment? Can the wheels handle the weight?

Not to worry you further, but I would be worried with resonance which might distort the sound. My rack has filled tubes and is coupled to the riser with firm spikes. Believe it or not but the difference was audible with all equipment directly on the riser.


----------



## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> Impressive equipment rack Joe. Is the use of wheels to be able to reach the back of the equipment? Can the wheels handle the weight?
> 
> Not to worry you further, but I would be worried with resonance which might distort the sound. My rack has filled tubes and is coupled to the riser with firm spikes. Believe it or not but the difference was audible with all equipment directly on the riser.


Yes, I put the wheels on since I am putting all the equipment in the closet in the back of the room. I wanted to be able to roll it out to get at the wiring in back. The wheels I got were rated for 300 lbs each which should be more than sufficient.

Sorry, Philip, I am a little unclear on the second comment. Were you getting resonance from the equipment itself vibrating and sending distortion through the speaker wire? Or, was the rack vibrating in the room due to LFE and you were hearing the rack vibrate?

Oh, and I just noticed - this is my 3000th post!


----------



## Wardsweb

ALMFamily said:


> Oh, and I just noticed - this is my 3000th post!


Congratulations!


----------



## devildog1679

Looking good, I like the whole rack idea. I just put shelves into a closet I built. I'm not going to have near the equipment you do. Atleast not yet


----------



## raZorTT

The rack looks great Joe, love the blue lighting :T


----------



## BD55

I would add some bracing like this on both sides and the back to some extent. The most flexing you will see is when you are pushing and pulling the rack from its space.


----------



## ALMFamily

devildog1679 said:


> Looking good, I like the whole rack idea. I just put shelves into a closet I built. I'm not going to have near the equipment you do. Atleast not yet


Thanks Alex! And, something tells me when it is all over, we will have more gear than we know what to do with! :bigsmile:



raZorTT said:


> The rack looks great Joe, love the blue lighting :T


Thanks Simon!



BD55 said:


> I would add some bracing like this on both sides and the back to some extent. The most flexing you will see is when you are pushing and pulling the rack from its space.
> View attachment 38802


Exactly my thoughts mate - fortunately, I do not see having to move it often once everything is in. However, that is a good concept to keep in mind - I may try to incorporate that once I am to the point of needing a project in there.


----------



## HTip

ALMFamily said:


> Yes, I put the wheels on since I am putting all the equipment in the closet in the back of the room. I wanted to be able to roll it out to get at the wiring in back. The wheels I got were rated for 300 lbs each which should be more than sufficient.


I understand now, so no worry there.



> Sorry, Philip, I am a little unclear on the second comment. Were you getting resonance from the equipment itself vibrating and sending distortion through the speaker wire? Or, was the rack vibrating in the room due to LFE and you were hearing the rack vibrate?


Initially the equipment was on the floor of the riser which resulted in vibration from the floor due to LFE and movement on the floor (2nd row). The rack corrected this so now I can move around without causing vibrations. But moving parts cause vibrations which are transported through interlinks and speaker cables and distort the sound. But the beauty of this is that you don't know that is hurting the sound until you remove the vibration 



> Oh, and I just noticed - this is my 3000th post!


Congrats :yay:


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

As promised - smaller posts are coming! :bigsmile:

I was sick most of the week, so not a whole lot was accomplished. I did get the lower portion of the front wall done:










I then had my friend help me move the 2 subs into the room so I could test the wiring to make sure I had grounded everything properly - I just ran the level calibration for each sub. And, oooooo sweet :hsd:!

I also continued to get wiring done in the closet. The modem, router and switch are all installed in there now - I just have a few more wires to terminate:










Last, I loaded up all the gear onto the cart - going to see how it holds up overnight......


----------



## ALMFamily

On a different note, I am finding that if I want to be able to shut stuff down remotely, I am going to need some sort of 12v trigger strip - is anyone using something like this or has suggestions for a good unit?


----------



## HTip

Good to see you're well again. It's the time of the year for flu and catching a cold 

When my receiver is turned on my sub is turned on also with a 12V trigger cable. My receiver has the ability to choose which input I want to switch the sub on or off. For example for the CD-input it switches off and for the DVD-input it switches on.

The equipment that you want to control needs a RS-232 input. Your processor needs a RS-232 output. I'm not sure the Onkyo 809 has the ability to use 12V triggers. But I would be surprised if it doesn't.


----------



## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> Good to see you're well again. It's the time of the year for flu and catching a cold
> 
> When my receiver is turned on my sub is turned on also with a 12V trigger cable. My receiver has the ability to choose which input I want to switch the sub on or off. For example for the CD-input it switches off and for the DVD-input it switches on.
> 
> The equipment that you want to control needs a RS-232 input. Your processor needs a RS-232 output. I'm not sure the Onkyo 809 has the ability to use 12V triggers. But I would be surprised if it doesn't.


It does - but only for zone 2 which is incredibly odd IMO. My projector has 2 however so I was hoping to use it to trigger on the rest of the amps. But, in order to do this, I am assuming I need some kind of power strip that accepts a 12v trigger to then allow AC current to flow.


----------



## Wardsweb

ALMFamily said:


> It does - but only for zone 2 which is incredibly odd IMO. My projector has 2 however so I was hoping to use it to trigger on the rest of the amps. But, in order to do this, I am assuming I need some kind of power strip that accepts a 12v trigger to then allow AC current to flow.


What you are looking for is a 12v triggered outlet. You can Google it or check Ebay. I used some Parasound Scamp controllers for my mono blocks in the past but not since getting the Panamax power center that has built in 12v triggers for the outlets.


----------



## ALMFamily

Wardsweb said:


> What you are looking for is a 12v triggered outlet. You can Google it or check Ebay. I used some Parasound Scamp controllers for my mono blocks in the past but not since getting the Panamax power center that has built in 12v triggers for the outlets.


Thanks Luther - I will check into that. Appreciate the input!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Time for another update!

I have made the final decision to use iRule for automation. I will be starting a new thread that I will link to in my sig and provide details as I learn through the process. Stay tuned!

As far as the room, I moved the modem and the router into the closet cabinet. I also picked up a network switch - boy there are a lot of connections! I got the modem and router set up and running and will be continuing to get cable terminated and connected for the other equipment:










I then determined the final dimensions for my projected image on the screen so I could get the border done. I cut 1/2" plywood into the four strips I needed and wrapped it with the black cloth I picked up from Joanns and stapled it to the back. This is the best photo I could get of the whole screen close-up:










Here is a close-up of it installed:










That completed the screen wall, so I moved the speakers in (gotta love the box center stand! :bigsmile :



















Then, I switched gears and went back to the AV rack. After last week's discussion, I wanted to load up the gear on the rack and make sure it could handle the weight. So far, so good:










I wanted to give the front a little more decor, so I cut 20" strips of quarter round and painted and poly'd it:










I just need to get it nailed to the front now. 

I also addressed the weight of the rack on the carpet - I picked up a sheet of 2'x2' iron, cleaned it up, primered and painted it and put several coats of poly on. I tested it and the wheels roll on really easy:










To top it all off, I got all my chairs moved in:



















Next up - finish getting all the wiring set-up and get the rack into the closet.

Again - sorry for the long update! :rolleyesno:


----------



## kadijk

Wow! Looks like you're ready to roll. Good job. The blue light in the closet makes me smile. It's very cool. Make sure you use Black Friday to pick up some cheap blurays. It'll be show time at your place before you know it. Looking good Joe.


----------



## ALMFamily

kadijk said:


> Wow! Looks like you're ready to roll. Good job. The blue light in the closet makes me smile. It's very cool. Make sure you use Black Friday to pick up some cheap blurays. It'll be show time at your place before you know it. Looking good Joe.


Thanks K! I had forgotten about getting blu-rays on Black Friday - any suggestions on good sites to do that?


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## Wardsweb

Things are looking really good and you seem to be in the home stretch. Not much more and you can just sit back, relax and watch the fruits of your labor. 

I wish I had a dedicated room. :sad2:


----------



## ALMFamily

Wardsweb said:


> Things are looking really good and you seem to be in the home stretch. Not much more and you can just sit back, relax and watch the fruits of your labor.
> 
> I wish I had a dedicated room. :sad2:


Thanks Luther - I wish I had all your systems! :bigsmile:


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## devildog1679

It looks great, close to cranking those bad boys up?


----------



## kadijk

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks K! I had forgotten about getting blu-rays on Black Friday - any suggestions on good sites to do that?


Last time we were down for Black Friday, the best bd deals were at target and Walmart. Best buy had some good prices too. I try not to spend more than $10 ea on a regular day, but I know I picked up some good ones for $5 on Black Friday.


----------



## kadijk

By the way...happy thanksgiving!


----------



## ALMFamily

devildog1679 said:


> It looks great, close to cranking those bad boys up?


I hope to sometime this weekend - thanks Alex!



kadijk said:


> Last time we were down for Black Friday, the best bd deals were at target and Walmart. Best buy had some good prices too. I try not to spend more than $10 ea on a regular day, but I know I picked up some good ones for $5 on Black Friday.





kadijk said:


> By the way...happy thanksgiving!


Alrighty - I will dare the stores! And, Happy Thanksgiving to you as well!


----------



## HTip

Great progress Joe! The rack looks even more impressive with all equipment in place. What is your plan with the walls?


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## Prof.

I've been away one day and you've nearly finished your theatre!! 
It's looking all good Joe! :T Keep up the good work..


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## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> Great progress Joe! The rack looks even more impressive with all equipment in place. What is your plan with the walls?


Thanks Philip! My plan for the walls is to get my REW rig up and going and start taking measurements. I am planning on working with Bryan to help me decide where I need to treat. After I have treated the walls, I am going to cover the bottom portion with black GOM and the top portion with more than likely a dark gray.

Once that is on, I will cover those furring strips with the same type of trim I used on the front wall.



Prof. said:


> I've been away one day and you've nearly finished your theatre!!
> It's looking all good Joe! :T Keep up the good work..


Thanks Prof!


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamilyconstr

Today's project was to get the door for the AV closet underway. It is only a 24" opening, so we decided to build our own. Since we are building it, I decided I wanted to do a smoked glass door as the door does not face any of the speakers for me to worry about reflections. 

We started by cutting the sides to length and then clamped them together and sanded the ends to make sure they were completely flush. Then, we cut a 3/4"x3/4" square from one edge:



















We set the edge aside as we will use it to seal the glass in. Next, we notched each of the side pieces to allow for an overlapping joint and then cut the top, middle, and bottom supports. We lined everything up to make sure it fit, then glued, screwed and clamped it all together. You can see the groove where the glass will sit:



















I am allowing the glue to set and then I will start sanding it tomorrow.

To take care of that side-to-side wobble in the cart, I cut a length of MDF, painted it, and screwed it diagonally across the back of the cart. Wobble gone!










We then started to mock up a prototype for the columns - I have pictures of it, but I am going to keep them for a surprise for later! :devil: But, I think they are going to be very unique!

I also got the materials to make the center stand - will probably start that tomorrow as well.


----------



## Prof.

Nice job on the door Joe..:T
From the looks of the base on your compound mitre saw, you have the same one that I have!! What are the chances of that from one side of the world to the other!!!


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Nice job on the door Joe..:T
> From the looks of the base on your compound mitre saw, you have the same one that I have!! What are the chances of that from one side of the world to the other!!!


Thanks Prof! I have been very happy with mine - probably the best $90 I have ever spent!


----------



## Prof.

My laser guide quit on me a few months after I bought it, but I've managed without it and cut all my timber framing a moulding for the theatre with it..Likewise, a great buy!


----------



## Owen Bartley

Diagonal brace looks like it will keep that thing steady, and at least give you some peace of mind that your gear won't just randomly topple over one night. Nice beefy looking door too, I bet its going to come out really nicely.


----------



## ALMFamily

Owen Bartley said:


> Diagonal brace looks like it will keep that thing steady, and at least give you some peace of mind that your gear won't just randomly topple over one night. Nice beefy looking door too, I bet its going to come out really nicely.


Thanks Owen - I ordered the glass yesterday so I am hoping to have it done in the next couple weeks.

With the flu barging it's way through the house, I did not get much done this past week. About all I can report is that I got all eighteen boxes built to surround all my outlets so I can run cloth:


----------



## mcascio

The flu came through our house a month ago. It was weird too. It disappeared fot a day or two and the then started its wrsth all over again. Hopefully you only get hit once.


----------



## ALMFamily

mcascio said:


> The flu came through our house a month ago. It was weird too. It disappeared fot a day or two and the then started its wrsth all over again. Hopefully you only get hit once.


It was the second pass through for us - I was the only one who did not get it the first time. :bigsmile:


----------



## ALMFamily

I got all the equipment loaded on the cart and everything wired up - here are a couple photos:



















I also ran Audessey today - it set the crossover for the fronts at 50 and the center at 70. Now, I need to get my REW rig up and going so I can start to do some room measurements and figure out treatments......


----------



## Prof.

WOW!!! That looks fantastic Joe..Very impressive!!:TT


----------



## jgourlie

I have rack envy, don't let my wife hear me say that :T


----------



## devildog1679

That looks awesome. Close to game time I see.


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> WOW!!! That looks fantastic Joe..Very impressive!!:TT





jgourlie said:


> I have rack envy, don't let my wife hear me say that :T





devildog1679 said:


> That looks awesome. Close to game time I see.


Thanks all!


----------



## duder1982

Say that's a nice rack. I have that same cable box, I see the Aragon monoblocks, what are the 2 processor looking do hickies under the cable box.


----------



## JBrax

Tried to come up with something original for impressions but…nice rack Joe!


----------



## ALMFamily

duder1982 said:


> Say that's a nice rack. I have that same cable box, I see the Aragon monoblocks, what are the 2 processor looking do hickies under the cable box.


Thanks! :bigsmile:

Those are both Yamaha YDP2206 EQ units. I got them used this past year - at some point, I plan on using one for sub EQ and the other for L/R EQ if needed. For right now, they are just sitting there looking pretty.


----------



## HTip

With all the equipment installed your rack looks even more impressive :T

You're right in time for the winter...


----------



## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> With all the equipment installed your rack looks even more impressive :T
> 
> You're right in time for the winter...


Thanks Philip! You are right - I actually got everyone settled in last night (wife and daughter have the flu) and then went downstairs and watched the Family Guy Star Wars spoofs...


----------



## ALMFamily

Well, with the flu running through the house (again!), I have not done anything on the construction side except get those frames put up around the outlets.

So, I got my REW rig up and going and started playing with it a bit. That of course leads me to a question - does it make sense to dial in 15Hz - 200 Hz first? I am running the xover on the L/R at 40 and the center at 50 so I was including them as part of the test, but the more I think about it, does it make more sense to just do the subs first to get the response I am looking to get and then add the L/C/R later?

Any thoughts you guys have are much appreciated.


----------



## ALMFamily

I just finished up reading through Paul Spencer's Bass Integration write-up, so I think I will try to follow that as best I can.

I did take some measurements yesterday - these are with the subs both up front. The first is just subs and the second is with the L/R xover set to 40 and the center xover set to 50:



















Still have a lot to learn and understand, but at least I am able to produce measurements. :bigsmile:


----------



## Todd Anderson

jgourlie said:


> I have rack envy, don't let my wife hear me say that :T


LOL...

That is a very nice equipment rack. :bigsmile:

Nice work.:T


----------



## devildog1679

To me my setup sounds great. Hate to see what it looks like to the trained ear.


----------



## ALMFamily

27dnast said:


> LOL...
> 
> That is a very nice equipment rack. :bigsmile:
> 
> Nice work.:T


Thanks!



devildog1679 said:


> *To me my setup sounds great.* Hate to see what it looks like to the trained ear.


And, that is what is TRULY important! :bigsmile:


----------



## ALMFamily

I noticed I have not updated my thread in almost a week, but that is because I really have not done much in the way of construction.

I spent most of the last week doing room measurements with REW and moving stuff around to figure out my best response. I figured I need to get this done so I can figure out where I need to treat the walls.

So, I am wondering if 2" 703 on the side walls is too thick - should I be going with 1" instead? Also, for the rear wall, what would work better - faced 1" 703 or some kind of diffusor?

I am assuming that full range REW measurements are necessary to determine how much of the side walls are to be treated - is that correct?


----------



## Prof.

Joe..Are you plannig on complete wall treatment with 2" 703 or just panels?
I can't advise you on diffusers, but with the faced 703 you can go as much as 4" thick! That's what I'm using and my panel covers 3/4 of the back wall..


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Joe..Are you plannig on complete wall treatment with 2" 703 or just panels?
> I can't advise you on diffusers, but with the faced 703 you can go as much as 4" thick! That's what I'm using and my panel covers 3/4 of the back wall..


I am doing complete wall treatment with 2" or 1"- or as much as is needed. I am planning on putting it behind GOM and then covering those furring strips you can see in recent pictures and the resulting staples with a finished oak trim.

For the back, I have allowed for up to 2" thickness for whatever is used - faced 703 would certainly be easier.  I want to cover that with GOM as well......


----------



## Prof.

Using 2" completely covering all walls may be too much absorption..It will depend on how lively your empty room sounds now..
Without proper testing gear, done by a professional, it will be a bit of hit and miss..
My only advice would be to intially cover only about half the height of walls from the floor up..and then take your measurements..

Some instrallations I've seen only used 2" 703 up to about ear height when seated and the remainder of the wall is covered with a less dense material like Dacron..
Bryan may have some thoughts on this..


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Using 2" completely covering all walls may be too much absorption..It will depend on how lively your empty room sounds now..
> Without proper testing gear, done by a professional, it will be a bit of hit and miss..
> My only advice would be to intially cover only about half the height of walls from the floor up..and then take your measurements..
> 
> Some instrallations I've seen only used 2" 703 up to about ear height when seated and the remainder of the wall is covered with a less dense material like Dacron..
> Bryan may have some thoughts on this..


Thanks Prof - I am going to work with Bryan a bit to see what he comes up with.

Now, I have what probably is a silly question but here goes - I have the space to do a super chunk in one rear corner but not the other as that is where the "alcove" is to exit the room and the entry to the AV closet. I already have both front corners done as well as using the soffits.

Would adding one in just one corner of the rear wall be beneficial or would it do more harm than good? Based on the last set of measurements I took, the waterfall shows a bit of ringing at @30 Hz and 60 Hz. Other than those two points, it appears to decay extremely well. I have read several instances where keeping symmetry is a good idea in construction, but I was not sure if it applied here as well.

Thoughts?


----------



## bpape

I wouldn't do just one. 

Also, 30Hz is pretty tough to deal with - even with tuned absorbers, then end up being very large. 

Bryan


----------



## ALMFamily

OK, thanks Bryan. Those spots are by no means horrible - it looks to be fairly minimal TBH. I am assuming they are not something that can be corrected by EQing........


----------



## bpape

If they are peaks, you can probably EQ them down a tad if you want. Just understand that EQ isn't going to impact the time domain or any ringing. 

Bryan


----------



## ALMFamily

bpape said:


> If they are peaks, you can probably EQ them down a tad if you want. Just understand that EQ isn't going to impact the time domain or any ringing.
> 
> Bryan


Understood - thanks Bryan!


----------



## ALMFamily

With the holiday season coming, progress has slowed considerably. However, I finally got my DIY center stand done except for the spikes which are ordered.

Here are a couple photos!


----------



## JQueen

Looks great


----------



## ALMFamily

JQueen said:


> Looks great


Thanks! I wanted something simple that would tie in with the rest of the oak finish - it seems to blend in pretty well.


----------



## mcascio

Very nice Joe. Looks really sharp.


----------



## ALMFamily

mcascio said:


> Very nice Joe. Looks really sharp.


Thanks Mario! How is the room treating you?! :bigsmile:


----------



## Todd Anderson

Nice work on the CC stand! Looking good!


----------



## Prof.

Very nice work Joe!..:T


----------



## JBrax

Very nice work Joe. Looks store bought to me and I mean that in a good way.


----------



## HTip

ALMFamily said:


> With the holiday season coming, progress has slowed considerably. However, I finally got my DIY center stand done except for the spikes which are ordered.


Looks great Joe! Does the plate slightly decline? My CC stand declines 5 degrees to put the tweeter in line with the fronts.


----------



## Owen Bartley

Nice looking stand, Joe. I missed the last page about your room treatment, and it sounds like Bryan is taking care of you now. I was going to suggest staggering your 2", alternating with that and no treatment, so you don't end up with a room that's too dead in the upper frequencies.


----------



## ALMFamily

27dnast said:


> Nice work on the CC stand! Looking good!





Prof. said:


> Very nice work Joe!..:T


Thanks guys!



JBrax said:


> Very nice work Joe. Looks store bought to me and I mean that in a good way.


Thanks Jeff - I was actually pretty proud of myself - it was the first time I really got to use my router table! :bigsmile: 



HTip said:


> Looks great Joe! Does the plate slightly decline? My CC stand declines 5 degrees to put the tweeter in line with the fronts.


Thanks Philip - it does. I cut it at about a 7 degree angle for the exact same reason.



Owen Bartley said:


> Nice looking stand, Joe. I missed the last page about your room treatment, and it sounds like Bryan is taking care of you now. I was going to suggest staggering your 2", alternating with that and no treatment, so you don't end up with a room that's too dead in the upper frequencies.


Thanks Owen - and thanks for the suggestion. I am working with Bryan now to get a plan in place. I also got a bunch of samples from Guilford to finish off the top half once the treatment is in place. I think I am going to go with medium gray:









I held it up to the blue LED lights I have in the closet, and I liked how the pattern really stood out. Plus, I am thinking that I will not have an issue with light refraction as it is a somewhat darker gray. I can, of course, be talked out of this - my second choice was the graphite:









That is a fair bit darker, but I was not sure about making the room that dark......


----------



## mcascio

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks Mario! How is the room treating you?! :bigsmile:


Going good Joe. I've got some friends who have been coming over every week or so for Movie Night. So the room has actually been getting some good use. 

I just added the Dune HD Max to my system and ordered the Panasonic PT-AE8000U Projector. 
I'm extremely pleased with the Dune HD Max and am excited to get the new projector in later this week.

I'm hoping 3D has gotten better over the past couple years.


----------



## ALMFamily

mcascio said:


> Going good Joe. I've got some friends who have been coming over every week or so for Movie Night. So the room has actually been getting some good use.
> 
> I just added the Dune HD Max to my system and ordered the Panasonic PT-AE8000U Projector.
> I'm extremely pleased with the Dune HD Max and am excited to get the new projector in later this week.
> 
> I'm hoping 3D has gotten better over the past couple years.


Nice! Congrats on the projector - I would be really interested to hear your impressions - there is a new owners thread started if you are willing to post your thoughts there.


----------



## ALMFamily

Oh, and I have a question for all you guys that have your room done. If you use REW to measure responses and set a house curve, do you not then use Audyssey?

The reason I ask - I did all the work of measuring responses at certain positions to get something close to a curve that I could then EQ. Then, I ran Audyssey thinking that I needed to get the distances and whatnot set.

Of course, all this succeeded in doing was completely throwing off the curve I had previous to running Audyssey and once I measured the response again, I saw huge dips.

So, I guess my question is does going through the REW measurement process eliminate the need for Audyssey?


----------



## HTip

In short... yes  Audyssey imo is an aid to help automate the setup process. It also compensates for acoustic issues a room might have. In my experience I can achieve better results with manual setup and EQ/DSP. The latter was quite difficult before REW came along. Now you can change something and see the effect it has on the frequency characteristic.

One other thing, the house curve is not always the best option. Try and learn to listen to the sweep to discover dips and peaks. Otherwise you might kill dynamics.

P.S. Good thinking of the decline for your center speaker :T


----------



## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> In short... yes  Audyssey imo is an aid to help automate the setup process. It also compensates for acoustic issues a room might have. In my experience I can achieve better results with manual setup and EQ/DSP. The latter was quite difficult before REW came along. Now you can change something and see the effect it has on the frequency characteristic.
> 
> One other thing, the house curve is not always the best option. Try and learn to listen to the sweep to discover dips and peaks. Otherwise you might kill dynamics.
> 
> P.S. Good thinking of the decline for your center speaker :T


Thanks Philip - that is what I was thinking but was not 100% sure. Funny you mention listening to the sweeps - yesterday, I started to close my eyes and just try to listen to see if the sweep sounded good or not. It was pretty hit and miss - guess I need to train my ears.

I ordered a third sub for the room - the PSA XS30. I think I might wait for it to arrive before I really start dialing everything in. I will just continue to test and learn for now.


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Jeff - I was actually pretty proud of myself - it was the first time I really got to use my router table! :bigsmile:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Philip - it does. I cut it at about a 7 degree angle for the exact same reason.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Owen - and thanks for the suggestion. I am working with Bryan now to get a plan in place. I also got a bunch of samples from Guilford to finish off the top half once the treatment is in place. I think I am going to go with medium gray:
> 
> View attachment 39346
> 
> 
> I held it up to the blue LED lights I have in the closet, and I liked how the pattern really stood out. Plus, I am thinking that I will not have an issue with light refraction as it is a somewhat darker gray. I can, of course, be talked out of this - my second choice was the graphite:
> 
> View attachment 39347
> 
> 
> That is a fair bit darker, but I was not sure about making the room that dark......


Curious what you guys' thoughts are on the GOM colors......


----------



## Owen Bartley

I actually really like both of those samples (as much as I can tell from the tiny squares on my screen). I like that the lighter one shows a little more texture, but I like the colour of the graphite as well. I think they would look amazing in a 2 colour scheme, but that might be more trouble than its worth. If I had to choose one only, the lighter one is probably a better compromise with standard (non-HT) design, but if you can pull off the darker one, it might make a slight improvement to the environment in a dark room.

In short... I am of no help at all.

_EDIT:_ I just went back and looked, and I like the medium grey better. Great texture if it looks like the sample does. What "style" is that?



ALMFamily said:


> I ordered a third sub for the room - the PSA XS30.


That is one killer third sub. A sealed dual 15? I bet it will sound phenomenal. I'd wait for it to arrive before spending much time dialing in too.


----------



## ALMFamily

Owen Bartley said:


> I actually really like both of those samples (as much as I can tell from the tiny squares on my screen). I like that the lighter one shows a little more texture, but I like the colour of the graphite as well. I think they would look amazing in a 2 colour scheme, but that might be more trouble than its worth. If I had to choose one only, the lighter one is probably a better compromise with standard (non-HT) design, but if you can pull off the darker one, it might make a slight improvement to the environment in a dark room.
> 
> In short... I am of no help at all.
> 
> _EDIT:_ I just went back and looked, and I like the medium grey better. Great texture if it looks like the sample does. What "style" is that?


It is the FR 701 - that actually is the style I chose for the black at the bottom of the wall (you can see it on the front wall covering the bass traps and lower screen wall) for the room. The Graphite is in the Anchorage style.

When I put the medium gray up next to the blue LEDs, the pattern really jumps out so I do like that one. Being a dedicated HT, my only concern with it is am I going to create light refraction issues. Of course, I will not be able to know for sure until I put it all up..... :dontknow:





Owen Bartley said:


> That is one killer third sub. A sealed dual 15? I bet it will sound phenomenal. I'd wait for it to arrive before spending much time dialing in too.


Very true - I have a feeling I will be moving them all around a fair bit to find the right mix. I did do a bit more measuring and tweaking today and found a good location for the two subs. I then hooked in my Yamaha EQ and got a feel for how it works.


----------



## ALMFamily

Just for giggles - here are those measurements:


----------



## Prof.

That is one serious Sub!!..But what surprised me was the price!!..and shipping included!! :unbelievable:
You guys in the US don't know how lucky you are..A Sub like that down here would cost at least double if not three times the price!! :crying:
Good luck to you Joe..It should sound awesome in your room!.


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> That is one serious Sub!!..But what surprised me was the price!!..and shipping included!! :unbelievable:
> You guys in the US don't know how lucky you are..A Sub like that down here would cost at least double if not three times the price!! :crying:
> Good luck to you Joe..It should sound awesome in your room!.


Thanks Prof - it really is too bad prices are that much more. But, it probably helped u to decide to build those beautiful new horns!


----------



## Prof.

Yes you're right..and it's helped me to now build a Sub horn system! 
My only problem with that at the moment is to find a spot where such a large enclosure will fit in my room!!


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Yes you're right..and it's helped me to now build a Sub horn system!
> My only problem with that at the moment is to find a spot where such a large enclosure will fit in my room!!


Oh! I did not see where you had decided on a design - looking forward to seeing how that turns out. At some point, I would like to do a sub project myself.


----------



## Prof.

I haven't actually decided on a design yet..The problem is that all Sub horns are BIG!!
I would love a Tapped Horn Sub. but they are massive!!..so I'm trying to find a smaller design that will go down to about 16Hz..


----------



## HTip

Prof. said:


> I haven't actually decided on a design yet..The problem is that all Sub horns are BIG!!
> I would love a Tapped Horn Sub. but they are massive!!..so I'm trying to find a smaller design that will go down to about 16Hz..


So this one is out of the question?












BTW: Measurements look good Joe. Can you generate a waterfall to show reverb times?


----------



## bpape

Or maybe this one -


----------



## Prof.

HTip said:


> So this one is out of the question?


:rofl: Hmm..I suppose I could build a new house around it!!


----------



## Prof.

bpape said:


> Or maybe this one -


:yikes: I think my whole room would fit in that!! :rofl2:


----------



## ALMFamily

Oh my! Those sit-ups would be nice to hear - once. I have a feeling the force created would be something like flying in a jet!

And, I will generate that waterfall sometime this weekend and get it posted up. Know that I did not spend a lot of time with this set of measurements as I figured I might as well wait for the XS30 to arrive before I really start dialing it in.

I have been reading and re-reading Wayne's house curve articles. The bent knee one looks pretty interesting - I may see about trying that one out.


----------



## mechman

HTip said:


> So this one is out of the question?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW: Measurements look good Joe. Can you generate a waterfall to show reverb times?


Who said you could use a picture of my setup?!?!?! :foottap:

:rofl:


----------



## Prof.

:rofl2: Good one mech!!


----------



## ALMFamily

In case I miss my chance - happy holidays all!

Question for you guys - when treating reflection points for towers speakers, I am assuming your treat from floor to slightly above the top of the tower speaker. Is that an accurate assessment?


----------



## ALMFamily

ALMFamily said:


> In case I miss my chance - happy holidays all!
> 
> Question for you guys - when treating reflection points for towers speakers, I am assuming your treat from floor to slightly above the top of the tower speaker. Is that an accurate assessment?


Anyone have thoughts on the above?

Also, I finished the glass door for the AV closet. It turned out pretty well. Sorry the pictures are not any better, that area is fairly narrow so I could not get a full shot. Here are a few shots:

Looking at the door from the HT:










Top of the door:










Bottom of the door:










Looking at the door from outside the HT:










I just need to do the trim work around the door now.


----------



## JQueen

That's one mean looking stack!


----------



## raZorTT

Great work on the cupboard door Joe! Is the glass tinted?


----------



## HTip

Your equipment room looks great Joe! Nice touch with the glass door :T

About the treatment of reflection points. Every speaker has a lot of first reflection points, as well to the front as the back of the speaker. The most important are the nearest side wall, the floor and ceiling. I treated the floor (with a rug) and ceiling (with acoustic tiles) to absorb the sound energy and the side walls to diffuse the sound. Diffusers are/should be placed that the center point is at tweeter height and has same distance to that floor and ceiling.

To illustrate:









I am not sure if that is the case with absorbers as well, but maybe Brian can help you with that.

@Brian: I saw that once before. I couldn't believe my eyes :yikes:
@mech: Sorry! I'll ask you next time


----------



## ALMFamily

JQueen said:


> That's one mean looking stack!





raZorTT said:


> Great work on the cupboard door Joe! Is the glass tinted?


Thanks guys!

Simon - great to see you! Yes, the glass is a smoked glass. I wanted to dim the LED lights a tad that spilled into the room.



HTip said:


> Your equipment room looks great Joe! Nice touch with the glass door :T
> 
> About the treatment of reflection points. Every speaker has a lot of first reflection points, as well to the front as the back of the speaker. The most important are the nearest side wall, the floor and ceiling. I treated the floor (with a rug) and ceiling (with acoustic tiles) to absorb the sound energy and the side walls to diffuse the sound. Diffusers are/should be placed that the center point is at tweeter height and has same distance to that floor and ceiling.
> 
> To illustrate:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure if that is the case with absorbers as well, but maybe Brian can help you with that.
> 
> @Brian: I saw that once before. I couldn't believe my eyes :yikes:
> @mech: Sorry! I'll ask you next time


Thanks Philip - I have already treated the front wall and the floor / ceiling so it is pretty much down to the side and back walls. I am not sure if I am going to be able to do diffusers on the back wall since I am planning on covering all the walls with GOM. I may just have to settle for faced OC 703.


----------



## bpape

Diffusion will work on the mids and highs but not the bass as diffusion for bass is ridiculously thick and not really feasible in a residential space. If you want to address boundary interactions (bass reinforcement and cancellations known as SBIR), then thicker absorbtion is required.

As for where you put typical reflection treatment, you just need to make sure you cover the height of the zones you're addressing. Normally with a typical 4' high panel, if you start them say 18"-24" off the floor you'll be fine.

Bryan


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> In case I miss my chance - happy holidays all!
> 
> Question for you guys - when treating reflection points for towers speakers, I am assuming your treat from floor to slightly above the top of the tower speaker. Is that an accurate assessment?


Joe..Aren't you planning to cover your side walls with OC703 behind the GOM? 
Are you looking at mounting reflection point panels as well, or am I not understanding what you're saying?


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Joe..Aren't you planning to cover your side walls with OC703 behind the GOM?
> Are you looking at mounting reflection point panels as well, or am I not understanding what you're saying?


I am - I was just not sure how much of the walls I should be covering with 703. I had a great chat with Bryan yesterday and he got me all cleared up. Thanks Prof! :T

I actually started on the walls yesterday - I will try to post up a pic later.


----------



## Prof.

looking forward to seeing them! :T


----------



## Owen Bartley

Yeah, Joe, let us in on the treatment plan and share some pics! I was in a nice demo room the other week, and the store had a sort of checkerboard pattern of about 1' square acoustic panels on the back wall. They alternated between panels and blank wall space. I'm not sure how much that particular feature contributed, but the room did sound really good.


----------



## ALMFamily

Here are a couple of quick photos of what I have got up so far:

Front right wall











Back right wall










For my space, Bryan suggested going floor to ceiling up until the middle column location and then 4' up beyond that. I ran out of 2", so I picked up more today and will be continuing the other side wall.

We are still determining how to do the back wall - I need to get some REW measurements......


----------



## raZorTT

Looking good Joe! Did you start out with any baseline measurement?

Was always something I meant to do but never got around to


----------



## ALMFamily

raZorTT said:


> Looking good Joe! Did you start out with any baseline measurement?
> 
> Was always something I meant to do but never got around to


Thanks Simon!

I have several, but now that you mention it, I do not think I have any full range measurements..... 

Ah well, se la vi.


----------



## Prof.

Coming together nicely Joe! 
Has Bryan suggested any further wall panels for the reflection points, or is the floor to ceiling insulation enough?


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Coming together nicely Joe!
> Has Bryan suggested any further wall panels for the reflection points, or is the floor to ceiling insulation enough?


At this point, just the floor to ceiling. I am certain once I have it all up, I will be doing more measurements.


----------



## Owen Bartley

That looks like a good plan. It hadn't occurred to me to do something like that before, but as soon as I saw it, I think the concept made sense. That's why you go to the real pros like Bryan when you want a really good result... you just can't beat the experience and knowledge.


----------



## jgourlie

Now that is a room that is going to sound awesome when done!!


----------



## ALMFamily

Owen Bartley said:


> That looks like a good plan. It hadn't occurred to me to do something like that before, but as soon as I saw it, I think the concept made sense. That's why you go to the real pros like Bryan when you want a really good result... you just can't beat the experience and knowledge.





jgourlie said:


> Now that is a room that is going to sound awesome when done!!


Thanks guys!

I have been picking away a bit at a time - I will try to get an update in tonight or tomorrow.


----------



## jgourlie

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> I have been picking away a bit at a time - I will try to get an update in tonight or tomorrow.


The updates are the best part....I always look forward to changes in someone's build.

Slowly and surely is not a bad way to go!!


----------



## ALMFamily

OK, I have most of the left side wall done with 2" OC 703 now:










I am going to wait to finish the rest of it as Bryan is taking a look at whether or not I need to target specific frequencies with rear wall treatment and it may change the thickness of rear wall treatment.

So, as you can see from the previous picture, I have started to cover the walls with cloth. I decided on the Anchorage Graphite for the top of the wall and the standard black for the bottom. Here are a couple pictures of what I have covered so far:



















I am going to be doing a combination of getting cloth up and starting the finish trim work until we figure out how to finish off the rear wall.


----------



## jgourlie

mmmmmm black and grey...that is after my own taste.....really nice choice!!!


----------



## ALMFamily

jgourlie said:


> mmmmmm black and grey...that is after my own taste.....really nice choice!!!


Thanks - I was going to go with the medium gray in the FR 701 style, but I just overly worried about making the walls too light so I went with the Graphite.


----------



## duder1982

Looking good, I really mean it. Its coming along nicely, for some reason I haven't gotten the last 3 or 4 pages of updates had to go back and do some reading. Can't wait to hear what you have to say about the sound.


----------



## ALMFamily

duder1982 said:


> Looking good, I really mean it. Its coming along nicely, for some reason I haven't gotten the last 3 or 4 pages of updates had to go back and do some reading. Can't wait to hear what you have to say about the sound.


Thanks!

I have done some preliminary setup and measurements with REW. I am waiting for the my new PSA XS30 to finalize positions for the 3 subs. However, looking at the latest measurements, I am really leaning toward trying the hard knee house curve.


----------



## Todd Anderson

Where are you thinking of placing the 3rd sub?


----------



## ALMFamily

27dnast said:


> Where are you thinking of placing the 3rd sub?


In the back left corner right now. I am going to experiment though to see if putting the 2 PB-13s up front and the XS30 on the side wall to see how that measures out.

I am really looking forward to putting it in. After doing the REW measurements with just the 2 subs, the response is really good in the primary position. I have not spent the time to measure all other positions yet as I figured it was a waste of time until the 3rd arrived.


----------



## Prof.

The black and grey is a nice choice Joe..That's going to look really nice when it's finished! :T


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> The black and grey is a nice choice Joe..That's going to look really nice when it's finished! :T


Thanks Prof!


----------



## Todd Anderson

That's probably good idea.... No need to waste your time now. I'll be interested to see where all 3 end up!

I wonder when the new xs30's will ship? Tom sent me an email about 8 days ago clarifying some details for replacement grills and the replacement sub they are sending... But didnt give me an exact date. He did say that, for the time being, that all new xs30's are going to be sent truck freight. I saw over on the AVS forum that they are back-ordered on their XV15 models and are really close to going back to back-order (again) for the xs30. He basically said that they underestimated demand...


----------



## Todd Anderson

Room is really looking great, by the way. Just curious, are you using flame retarded fabrics?

Great work, man, GREAT WORK!!


----------



## ALMFamily

27dnast said:


> That's probably good idea.... No need to waste your time now. I'll be interested to see where all 3 end up!
> 
> I wonder when the new xs30's will ship? Tom sent me an email about 8 days ago clarifying some details for replacement grills and the replacement sub they are sending... But didnt give me an exact date. He did say that, for the time being, that all new xs30's are going to be sent truck freight. I saw over on the AVS forum that they are back-ordered on their XV15 models and are really close to going back to back-order (again) for the xs30. He basically said that they underestimated demand...


I have not heard from Tom as of yet as to a ship date. IIRC, he did say that they thought it would be around the end of January and that if there was going to be a change, they would contact everyone.

It is really good to hear that they are doing so well with the startup!



27dnast said:


> Room is really looking great, by the way. Just curious, are you using flame retarded fabrics?
> 
> Great work, man, GREAT WORK!!


Thanks Todd! TBH, I am not sure if GOM is flame retardant or not. I will have to check that out!


----------



## MrAngles

The fabric on the walls is looking really great, I don't think I'd be able to get it nearly as clean looking as you have.

So when you have OC703 covered with fabric on the walls, how will you keep the walls clean? I imagine dust would eventually become an issue, but more of a concern is residue from little fingers. Can you vacuum OC703 safely? What about moisture, can you wipe it with a wet rag without insulation fibers trying to come through the fabric?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> The fabric on the walls is looking really great, I don't think I'd be able to get it nearly as clean looking as you have.
> 
> So when you have OC703 covered with fabric on the walls, how will you keep the walls clean? I imagine dust would eventually become an issue, but more of a concern is residue from little fingers. Can you vacuum OC703 safely? What about moisture, can you wipe it with a wet rag without insulation fibers trying to come through the fabric?


Thanks!

Fortunately, I only have 1 child of the age that putting her fingers all over everything is fun, and she cannot sit still enough that her and Mom generally do not come down. It is pretty much myself and the older two boys watching movies in there right now.

So far, I have not noticed any dust from the 703 once it is covered with the cloth. It seems to only throw dust when it is handled. Of course, I have had it up less than a week at this point so it is a small sample size. 

However, the weave seems tight enough to me that most if not all should be contained. I have vacuumed up the 703 a few times with no issues.

Not sure on the moisture, but I have run the vacuum across the cloth to remove 703 particles once it is up and I have not noticed anything poking through once I am done.


----------



## MrAngles

Cool, I figured the upholstery vacuum brush would be the way to keep it clean.

My daughter's 6 now, and loves to watch movies with me, but it's impossible to keep her from touching EVERYTHING. She's like a little spiderman, leaping from wall to wall...


----------



## Todd Anderson

Joe -- did you completely deaden your entire front wall with OC703? Even behind the screen?


----------



## ALMFamily

27dnast said:


> Joe -- did you completely deaden your entire front wall with OC703? Even behind the screen?


Yes sir I did! I put 1" on the back of the screen and then 2" where the screen is not.


----------



## Todd Anderson

Cool. I have roughly 40% of my front wall covered. I'm thinking about revisiting that and finishing the job off. 

Makes me a little nervous to deaden 90% of the front surface... but... that's the way it's supposed to be, correct?


By the way... this news on the PSA XS30:

"Second production run of XS30s should begin Friday the 11th +/- one business day.(shipments will begin same day or next business day)"


----------



## ALMFamily

27dnast said:


> Cool. I have roughly 40% of my front wall covered. I'm thinking about revisiting that and finishing the job off.
> 
> Makes me a little nervous to deaden 90% of the front surface... but... that's the way it's supposed to be, correct?
> 
> 
> By the way... this news on the PSA XS30:
> 
> "Second production run of XS30s should begin Friday the 11th +/- one business day.(shipments will begin same day or next business day)"


It is - the front wall is supposed to be dead to stop any surround reflection from my understanding.

And, I got an email from Tom today saying that they were underway! :fireworks2::fireworks1:


----------



## ALMFamily

I did some more cloth work today - got the whole right side of the room done:





































If you look closely at the 4th picture, you can see just a touch of 703. That is where the middle column will be. 

Trim work on that wall begins tomorrow......


----------



## Owen Bartley

Joe, it looks amazing! I LOVE the black and grey combo seeing it on the wall. It's modern and classy, and will probably completely disappear when the lights go out for movie time. Keep up the great work, and keep taking pictures!


----------



## ALMFamily

Owen Bartley said:


> Joe, it looks amazing! I LOVE the black and grey combo seeing it on the wall. It's modern and classy, and will probably completely disappear when the lights go out for movie time. Keep up the great work, and keep taking pictures!


Thanks Owen!


----------



## mechman

It's looking absolutely awesome Joe!! :T :T


----------



## ALMFamily

mechman said:


> It's looking absolutely awesome Joe!! :T :T


Thanks Mech! How was the Leinys plant? :devil:


----------



## Prof.

It's looking really great Joe! :T I think it will be an awesome theatre when it's all finished..
The carpet in those pics. looks a LOT lighter than the previous ones..Is that nearer to the actual colour!?


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks Prof!

Those first couple are using the night time setting for the camera. So, it is probably closer to what you were seeing before, but just a tad lighter than they appeared in those pictures. You can see just a bit of the carpeting in the fourth picture. That is probably the most accurate I have taken of the carpet so far.

Oh, and I started a bit of the trim work today. Pictures will follow probably tomorrow.


----------



## raZorTT

Nice work on covering Joe! I'm a huge fan of the black and grey colour combo!


----------



## ALMFamily

Thanks Simon - good to see you!


----------



## mechman

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks Mech! How was the Leinys plant? :devil:


I never did get there. I have to admit that I really don't care for Leinenkugel's. I'm more of a 'craft beer' type of guy.


----------



## ALMFamily

After some discussion with Bryan, I built the rear walls furring strips out a bit further so that I can do 4" of 703 across the back wall. Once it is up, I will redo some measurements to decide whether or not to do some MLV / 10 mil facing. I got it all up and set for the 703 of which I need to get one more case:










I also started on the trim on the right wall and the front left corner:





































The cloth on the left side is almost done now as well, and I am continuing to measure out trim and finish / hang it as I go.


----------



## bamabum

Very nice.


----------



## raZorTT

great job Joe, it's really coming together!


----------



## Owen Bartley

Things are really coming together, Joe. The trim looks really nice in place, and I like the method you used to deal with the fabric panels. It seems like it would be much easier than trying to build and fit multiple panels, and it gives a nice clean look.


----------



## Prof.

Looking very nice Joe..:T


----------



## ALMFamily

bamabum said:


> Very nice.





raZorTT said:


> great job Joe, it's really coming together!





Owen Bartley said:


> Things are really coming together, Joe. The trim looks really nice in place, and I like the method you used to deal with the fabric panels. It seems like it would be much easier than trying to build and fit multiple panels, and it gives a nice clean look.





Prof. said:


> Looking very nice Joe..:T


Thanks everyone!

I have kind of settled into a system where I measure, cut, sand, and stain some trim one day and allow it to dry overnight. Then, I put that up the next day and measure out the next set from there.

Slow going, but it sure makes for tighter seams.

And, my XS30 is set to be delivered this morning! :yay:


----------



## raZorTT

That's a good system. The prep and staining takes more time than anything else


----------



## ALMFamily

Apologies, everyone, I have been in a head-on sprint for the last week as I can see the end of the road (well, the construction road anyway), so I have not been on the site or doing updates. 

So, I am going to break this up a bit. To start, my XS30 was delivered! As the gentleman was wheeling it up the driveway, my heart dropped. I could see a significant tear in the box:










The other side of the box was also a bit ripped:










Amazingly, there was not even a scratch on the sub - and I made the poor guy stand there and wait while I looked it over for a solid 10 minutes. 

Unpacked:



















I hooked it up and gave it a pink noise test - everything was working as intended. Bad part is I have not had time to get REW up and running and moving subs around to finalize locations. However, I did add another sub connection location to bring the room up to 5 so I have many options open.

Hopefully, I will be able to get at that in the next few days.

On to the next update!


----------



## raZorTT

Hi Joe, 

That would have been a terrifying 10 mins  glad there was no actual damage to the sub!

look forward to the next updates

Simon


----------



## ALMFamily

I have been working with Bryan to help with the room treatment. After some discussion, we had decided to go 4" thick on the rear wall so I built the furring strips out to accomodate that.

To keep the surrounds lively, Bryan suggested covering the 703 with a dense plastic or 1/2 lb MLV. I had some MLV left over from doing the soffits, but not enough to do the entire rear wall. So, I used the remaining MLV on the wall above the chair rail and did an 8 mil black plastic on the rear wall below the chair rail.

Here is a photo of the rear wall with all the 703 up:










Then, I put the 8 mil plastic up and stapled it down:










Next, I got the MLV up:










I did it solo, and boy was it heavy! I had to used the 1/2" staples as the weight just pulled the 1/4" staples out.

Here is the rear wall with both hung:










Next, it was on to covering both in the cloth - Anchorage Graphite on top and Black FR 701 on the bottom:










Then, it was on to more trim work!


----------



## ALMFamily

raZorTT said:


> Hi Joe,
> 
> That would have been a terrifying 10 mins  glad there was no actual damage to the sub!
> 
> look forward to the next updates
> 
> Simon


Oh, I was definitely feeling a bit sick. After reading so many threads lately with people experiencing damage from delivery companies, I was fearing the worst!


----------



## ALMFamily

So, now the trim work. As I said before, I had settled into a routine where I cut, sanded and stained one day and I put it up the next.

Happy to say - today, I finished the remaining trim work!

Here is the door to the sump pump area. The door is not done yet, but the trim around it is set to go:










Here is the left wall. You can still see where the middle column will be going:










Here is the rear wall. There are a couple small pieces missing from around the outlets, but you get the picture (pun intended!)










From the rear left corner looking toward where the entrance is:










The AV closet - apologies for the two photos as there is no good angle.



















At the entrance looking in:










Alrighty, on to the columns!


----------



## NBPk402

I love your custom trim pieces around the outlets!


----------



## ALMFamily

As to the columns, I have decided to go with 2 different designs. The middle columns will be supporting the side surrounds, so I wanted something a bit sturdier.

I decided on a design where the lower portion from the floor to the chair rail is oak stained to match the rest of the trim. I am going to take a page from other designs I have seen and place a "picture" frame with cloth on the front and sides to break it up a bit. 

From the chair rail to roughly 2/3 to the top rail. I am going to do a box wrapped in the black FR 701 cloth. I am going to notch out the sides and run LED lights inside to backlight the columns. On top of that will be a shelf stained to match the trim that will be slightly wider than the column with rounded edges. The speaker will sit on the shelf.

By sheer luck, each middle column has an LED puck light over where it will be placed - this will serve to accent the speaker.

Here is a picture of one of the columns in the early stages:










I have a prototype made for what I am thinking for the design of the front and rear columns, but I want to flesh it out a bit more. In essense, they are not really columns per se. I wanted to add a little color and decor to the room, so I am going to go with something a bit unique. More to come.......

Apologies for the mass updates - I will try to be better! :bigsmile:


----------



## ALMFamily

ellisr63 said:


> I love your custom trim pieces around the outlets!


Thanks! It really helps to break up all the cloth a bit.


----------



## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I have been in a head-on sprint for the last week


You're not kidding! Amazing job, it's looking great!


----------



## dguarnaccia

Boy, your room is a really looking good! Nice work!


----------



## Todd Anderson

Wow.. things are really coming along nicely. Walls look awesome!


----------



## AudiocRaver

That is one fine looking room!


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> You're not kidding! Amazing job, it's looking great!





dguarnaccia said:


> Boy, your room is a really looking good! Nice work!





27dnast said:


> Wow.. things are really coming along nicely. Walls look awesome!





AudiocRaver said:


> That is one fine looking room!


Thanks everyone!


----------



## jgourlie

I am quite enjoying the mass updates...you get all this good stuff all at once...keep up the good work!!

I am really liking how things are coming along


----------



## ALMFamily

jgourlie said:


> I am quite enjoying the mass updates...you get all this good stuff all at once...keep up the good work!!
> 
> I am really liking how things are coming along


Thanks mate!

I was thinking last night about what I have left from a construction standpoint. I think I am down to the door to cover the sump pump area and the columns......


----------



## jgourlie

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks mate!
> 
> I was thinking last night about what I have left from a construction standpoint. I think I am down to the door to cover the sump pump area and the columns......


Don't feel bad....I just realized that I have made some changes to my room and I haven't updated anything and I made them 1 month ago....I guess it's time for a mass update for me too


----------



## Prof.

Wow! Joe..I miss one afternoons (here) posts and you've moved streets ahead in the build!!
It's all looking very nice and I think the columns will look great! :T


----------



## ALMFamily

jgourlie said:


> Don't feel bad....I just realized that I have made some changes to my room and I haven't updated anything and I made them 1 month ago....I guess it's time for a mass update for me too


Time to get on it mate!



Prof. said:


> Wow! Joe..I miss one afternoons (here) posts and you've moved streets ahead in the build!!
> It's all looking very nice and I think the columns will look great! :T


Thanks Prof! I need to make sure I get today's update done too...


----------



## duder1982

ALMFamily said:


> Thanks mate!
> 
> I was thinking last night about what I have left from a construction standpoint. I think I am down to the door to cover the sump pump area and the columns......


Well what are you waiting for, get to it.


----------



## duder1982

Oh and looking good to:T


----------



## ALMFamily

duder1982 said:


> Well what are you waiting for, get to it.


Yes sir! :bigsmile:



duder1982 said:


> Oh and looking good to:T


Thanks!


----------



## Owen Bartley

Great progress, Joe. I'm still impressed with the fabric system and the room treatments you did. the column backlighting sounds interesting, and I know you'll put together something cool looking.


----------



## ALMFamily

Owen Bartley said:


> Great progress, Joe. I'm still impressed with the fabric system and the room treatments you did. the column backlighting sounds interesting, and I know you'll put together something cool looking.


Thanks Owen! I am really quite pleased with how the room is turning out. 

I did forget one other bit I need to build. As I have no desire whatsoever to drill holes in the backs of my beautiful surrounds, I am planning on doing some DIY speaker mounts for the rear surrounds.


----------



## kadijk

It's looking really good Joe. I have been following along, albeit silently. You must be getting restless, as the finish line appears . By the way...congrats on 800 posts in this thread. It's been quite a journey. Thanks for sharing your experiences with the rest of us out here.


----------



## ALMFamily

kadijk said:


> It's looking really good Joe. I have been following along, albeit silently. You must be getting restless, as the finish line appears . By the way...congrats on 800 posts in this thread. It's been quite a journey. Thanks for sharing your experiences with the rest of us out here.


You are so right - I let my posting slide here as I was trying to sprint for the end zone. :R

And, this room would not have been what it is without all of you - and for that I thank you all.

I should find one of those online services and make this thread into a book that I can display in the HT......


----------



## ALMFamily

So, in an effort to make smaller posts :bigsmile:, here goes!

I got the door to the sump pump area constructed. I took a piece of 1"x2'x4" piece of edge glued pine and trimmed it to size. I then ripped a 3" piece of 2x4 in half to use for handles and screwed them to the pine. I then stained the handles.

I had a piece of 1" 703 set aside to help insulate the surface a bit, so I cut out the spots for the handles and then grabbed a piece of black GOM I had left over. I cut the spots out for the handles, and I covered the entire door and stapled it down.

I put it in place for now:



















My step-dad has a couple of interesting hinge type pieces he is going to bring up that we will try to use to secure the door.

I also started on doing the frames for the lower portion of the columns. I found this handy frame clamp:










It works pretty well once you get used to it. I got the frames made and stained - here is one of them:










Finally, I glued fabric onto one of the frames and mounted it on the column:










I just have the sides left to do. I also got the LED lights ordered for inside the columns and am expecting them today.


----------



## jgourlie

Now we are talking....very nice update and they are coming even faster now....good job.

I am loving how things are coming along!!


----------



## Prof.

Nice frame work Joe..:T
I've never seen a frame clamp like that before..Did you by chance take a photo of it when you were using it!?


----------



## ALMFamily

jgourlie said:


> Now we are talking....very nice update and they are coming even faster now....good job.
> 
> I am loving how things are coming along!!


Thanks!



Prof. said:


> Nice frame work Joe..:T
> I've never seen a frame clamp like that before..Did you by chance take a photo of it when you were using it!?


Doh! I did not. I have to make more for the other middle column - I promise to get a photo.


----------



## AudiocRaver

Following your progress is downright addictive. This is better than cable.


----------



## ALMFamily

AudiocRaver said:


> Following your progress is downright addictive. This is better than cable.


Thanks Wayne - glad to have you following along!


----------



## ALMFamily

For all you following along who have completed your theater projects, I have put a new section in our monthly newsletter showing someone's theater and a few pictures with it. 

If you could, would you guys mind replying to this thread with links to any pictures you would want to include so I can show off your completed rooms? 

Thanks for anyone up to doing it!


----------



## ALMFamily

As promised, here are a couple photos of that picture frame square in action Prof!


----------



## ALMFamily

Alrighty, I have one of the middle columns done. I wanted something a bit sturdier as the side surrounds are located on them, so I made them a bit wider than I originally intended.

These are somewhat original so be gentle in your criticism! 










A somewhat closer view:










I tried to take a night portrait shot so you could get a sense of what backlighting the columns looks like as the light spills across the wall:










Here is a side view showing the top:










Constructive criticism - go! :boxer:


----------



## MrAngles

That's pretty awesome, I've never seen that before.


----------



## bamabum

Very nice. Love the lighting effect


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> As promised, here are a couple photos of that picture frame square in action Prof!


What a great little device!! :T I could have done with one of those when I had to make up 16 individual frames for my acoustic panels!


----------



## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> Alrighty, I have one of the middle columns done. I wanted something a bit sturdier as the side surrounds are located on them, so I made them a bit wider than I originally intended.
> 
> These are somewhat original so be gentle in your criticism!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A somewhat closer view:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tried to take a night portrait shot so you could get a sense of what backlighting the columns looks like as the light spills across the wall:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a side view showing the top:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Constructive criticism - go! :boxer:


 Joe..
Are you leaving the top section of the column open, so you will see the surround speakers?
Also, even if your columns are solidly constructed, they will still vibrate to some degree, as the wall vibrates when all those subs kick in!..
What I have found in the past is that those vibration will actually walk your surround speakers if they are just sitting on timber..
All you need to do is to put a thin piece of non-slip matting underneath them..but you may have already thought of that..
I guess if you're using a double layer of plasterboard, it may not be a problem..

The lighting looks great! :T Much better than mine did when I tried that idea..


----------



## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Joe..
> Are you leaving the top section of the column open, so you will see the surround speakers?
> Also, even if your columns are solidly constructed, they will still vibrate to some degree, as the wall vibrates when all those subs kick in!..
> What I have found in the past is that those vibration will actually walk your surround speakers if they are just sitting on timber..
> All you need to do is to put a thin piece of non-slip matting underneath them..but you may have already thought of that..
> I guess if you're using a double layer of plasterboard, it may not be a problem..
> 
> The lighting looks great! :T Much better than mine did when I tried that idea..


I am leaving them open - I really like the finish on them so I did not want to hide them. I never thought about a non-slip mat - I will have to see if they start to move and, if so, get something under them.

And, thanks!


----------



## jgourlie

I am really liking that design....I see why you didn't want to cover the speakers because of the finish on the wood. I think they look fantastic. I think it is also a nice touch with the backlighting, looks sharp.

keep it up


----------



## engtaz

Very nice work. Looking great.


----------



## ALMFamily

jgourlie said:


> I am really liking that design....I see why you didn't want to cover the speakers because of the finish on the wood. I think they look fantastic. I think it is also a nice touch with the backlighting, looks sharp.
> 
> keep it up





engtaz said:


> Very nice work. Looking great.


Thanks guys!


----------



## MrAngles

That looks incredible, you did a great job. I really like that you have the speaker entirely open rather than boxing it in. I know a lot of people like to hide the speakers but I'm not part of that camp. It also leaves your options open for the future if you want/need to replace/upgrade them.

The backlighting is really cool. Will it be too distracting to have the blue on while a movie is playing? I think if it was I would consider adding clear lighting back there with the blue because the effect is so cool.


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> That looks incredible, you did a great job. I really like that you have the speaker entirely open rather than boxing it in. I know a lot of people like to hide the speakers but I'm not part of that camp. It also leaves your options open for the future if you want/need to replace/upgrade them.
> 
> The backlighting is really cool. Will it be too distracting to have the blue on while a movie is playing? I think if it was I would consider adding clear lighting back there with the blue because the effect is so cool.


Thanks! TBH, when I had originally planned to do columns, I was going to enclose the surrounds. Once I got them and saw the finish, there was no way I could enclose them - it really is a beautiful finish.

I do not think it will be - the good part is that I made the back lights one of the zones on my GE, so I can dim them down when a movie is playing if they are too distracting. I splurged a bit on these - they have no transformer so I can dim them down as far as I want unlike the ones on the underside of the riser.


----------



## bamabum

What's the led brand and source?


----------



## ALMFamily

bamabum said:


> What's the led brand and source?


I got them from a place called The Lighting Solution. Here is a link:

http://www.ecologicsavings.com/all-...4-ft-cool-white-waterproof-smd5050-led-strip/

I just rechecked the prices - it appears they went up quite a bit. As in $50 per quite a bit......:unbelievable:

Perhaps they will come back to a more reasonable price......


----------



## raZorTT

great work on the columns Joe! :T

Love the LED lighting effect as well. Will look sensational when you have you scenes setup and people walk in for the first time. They'll be blown away


----------



## ALMFamily

raZorTT said:


> great work on the columns Joe! :T
> 
> Love the LED lighting effect as well. Will look sensational when you have you scenes setup and people walk in for the first time. They'll be blown away


Thanks Simon!


----------



## ALMFamily

I found another annoying hum in the system last night. I finally tracked it back to the YDP2206 equalizers. Thank goodness it was fairly easy to find - only took me about 2 hours. I think in the future my best bet is to start with the equipment that is the oldest manufactured piece first.... 

I also got the other middle column finished last night:










I tried my best to get a shot that had both in them to give you a sense of how they look, but they are not great:



















I will be starting the other 4 column designs this weekend.

Today, I have been working with REW and speaker placement. I have the fronts placed - given my non-symmetrical layout, it was not shocking that one is closer to the seating position than the other. No worries by me - having one a foot farther forward is not a big deal if they sound better IMO.

I will update my REW thread with my results so far....

Tonight, I plan to get started watching the Michael Chen video calibration package so I can start dialing in the video as well.....


----------



## duder1982

Looking awesome, I can't wait until I have the funds for my theater. I like the look of wood you have put into yours. Very nice.


----------



## ALMFamily

duder1982 said:


> Looking awesome, I can't wait until I have the funds for my theater. I like the look of wood you have put into yours. Very nice.


Thanks!

Spent the last 5+ hours determining that the version of Audessey I have does not do as well as I can with REW. Will post some graphs tomorrow..


----------



## AudiocRaver

ALMFamily said:


> Today, I have been working with REW and speaker placement. I have the fronts placed - given my non-symmetrical layout, it was not shocking that one is closer to the seating position than the other. No worries by me - having one a foot farther forward is not a big deal if they sound better IMO.


That 1 foot closer could make accurate imaging a bit of a challenge when all is working together. But, of course, compromises have to be made...


----------



## ALMFamily

AudiocRaver said:


> That 1 foot closer could make accurate imaging a bit of a challenge when all is working together. But, of course, compromises have to be made...


An excellent point - and more than likely, sliding it forward a bit it not going to totally ruin my response. 

On a different point, I cannot tell you how frustrated I was after getting my response dialed in only to have Audyssey completely ruin it. Of course, it is my fault as well for not writing down all my pre-Audyssey settings.........

I updated my REW thread - I have also added it to my sig as I will be posting results there to keep them separate from the build.


----------



## HTip

Hey Joe, Your room is looking greater by the day. I had some reading to do, cause you worked so hard. It looks like you're in the final stage of the build, so the end is in sight :T

Very handy tool you got there to build the frames, which look great. You columns seem to house 3 speakers


----------



## ALMFamily

Just catching up now - thanks Philip! Someone who came over for the Super Bowl thought the same thing about the columns!


----------



## ALMFamily

It has been a while since my last post - these "columns" take a bit of time to get all together. So, here is what I have so far. I decided that I wanted to go with something a bit more unique for the columns that did not need to support speakers. So, this design came to pass. They do not extend to the floor - they only go about 3" below the chair rail. They are not quite done - read below......

This is both the middle column and the rear on the right side of the room:










These are just of the rear column:



















You can see where the figurines sit on the shelf - what you cannot see from those photos is that there is a square cutout in the middle of the shelf. I cut a piece of plexiglass and put it in that cutout to allow the backlighting of the column to come out the top as well - I am trying for a "stage" effect.

What has not been completed on it yet is the curtains. I wanted to add just a splash of color to the room, so this concept is what I came up with for the front and read "columns". I have found a couple of patterns that I like - here is a link to one:

http://www.cafepress.com/+movie_theater_shower_curtain,706538038

Here are a couple of pictures with just the backlights on - not great by any means since the only light was blue but here they are anyway:


----------



## MrAngles

That looks great! The curtain idea is really cool. What made you decide not to go all the way to the floor?


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> That looks great! The curtain idea is really cool. What made you decide not to go all the way to the floor?


Thanks!

Honestly, nothing more than a desire to do something unique. :bigsmile:


----------



## raZorTT

Nicely done Joe! :T

It's the little details that take the most time. It's well worth it in the end though! Keep up the good work!


----------



## ALMFamily

raZorTT said:


> Nicely done Joe! :T
> 
> It's the little details that take the most time. It's well worth it in the end though! Keep up the good work!


Thanks Simon!


----------



## Owen Bartley

Joe, some good progress in the last little while! First of all, the finish on those surrounds is gorgeous, and good for you for not hiding them. I really like the accent lights above them. The blue column sidelights are awesome too, really give the room something extra.


----------



## ALMFamily

Owen Bartley said:


> Joe, some good progress in the last little while! First of all, the finish on those surrounds is gorgeous, and good for you for not hiding them. I really like the accent lights above them. The blue column sidelights are awesome too, really give the room something extra.


Thanks Owen! Now I just need to get back at it and finish the other two! :bigsmile:


----------



## ALMFamily

So, I got back at it!

All the columns are now completely done - the two up front have a much smaller profile. And, all the curtains are done as well. Here are a couple photos of the rear columns:




























This is one of the fronts:










Not sure how well you can see them, but here is a sot from the rear of the theater:










I have also been working on the video calibration and hope to get that finished up this week.


----------



## MrAngles

That's exactly how I imagined it, it looks great!


----------



## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> That's exactly how I imagined it, it looks great!


Thanks!

With going pretty much black all over, I wanted to add just a touch of color to the room. So, now that I have the curtains up, I am going to make blankets for each seat to match (as close as I can anyway) the curtain color. Should help a bit to make it feel less like a bat cave.


----------



## phillihp23

Question about your wall fabric and sound insulation.
Did you attach the sound insulation onto the wall, then staple the fabric over, and border it with trim? As apposed to creating frames.
How thick is the sound isolation you used 1" - 2" ?


----------



## ALMFamily

phillihp23 said:


> Question about your wall fabric and sound insulation.
> Did you attach the sound insulation onto the wall, then staple the fabric over, and border it with trim? As apposed to creating frames.
> How thick is the sound isolation you used 1" - 2" ?


I did attach it right to the wall. Then, I stapled the cloth to the furring strips and covered that with the trim.

I used 2" everywhere except for the rear wall - I went 4" thick back there. I also only went 16" above the chair rail with the 2" - above that, there is no insulation at all in order to keep the rear surrounds lively.


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## Owen Bartley

Lol... I love the little mini stages with curtains, Joe, great way to showcase some movie related figurines, etc. And I really like the little minion, too. Those guys, along with the elves from _Rise of the Guardians_, are favorites in our house.


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## ALMFamily

Owen Bartley said:


> Lol... I love the little mini stages with curtains, Joe, great way to showcase some movie related figurines, etc. And I really like the little minion, too. Those guys, along with the elves from _Rise of the Guardians_, are favorites in our house.


Thanks Owen!

I have a feeling the "permanent" figures will more than likely be Muppets with perhaps a couple LOTR ones - I am such a big an of both.


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## MrAngles

You don't have Statler and Waldorf do you? They would be perfect up there.


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> You don't have Statler and Waldorf do you? They would be perfect up there.


I do not - I will have to keep my eyes open on ebay for them!


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## HTip

Nice touch with the mini theaters, Joe :T I haven't seen anything like it, so it's truly unique.


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## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> Nice touch with the mini theaters, Joe :T I haven't seen anything like it, so it's truly unique.


Thanks Philip - that is what I was going for!


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## Nezzer

Wow. I'm really impressed. It looks amazing.


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## ALMFamily

Nezzer said:


> Wow. I'm really impressed. It looks amazing.


Thanks!


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## Dale Rasco

Joe, the room looks amazing! Great work my friend!


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## ALMFamily

Dale Rasco said:


> Joe, the room looks amazing! Great work my friend!


Thanks Dale! So close to finishing now - then, I think I will take a couple week break before I start on the theater "foyer" area.....


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## Todd Anderson

Wow... your room has turned out superb! Beautiful work!!!:clap:

So how is that XS30 playing with your SVS subs? Curious to hear your overall impressions.


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## ALMFamily

Todd Anderson said:


> Wow... your room has turned out superb! Beautiful work!!!:clap:
> 
> So how is that XS30 playing with your SVS subs? Curious to hear your overall impressions.


Thanks Todd! I am almost done, but baseball season and outside work have taken all my time.

It has blended beautifully - I think I have a post in my measurements thread showing the last go around with REW and subsequent EQ - I have not done anything over 200 Hz yet though.

That said, I am strongly considering going a different route for subs, so I may be selling a couple soon...


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## Todd Anderson

Your measurements look amazing... you have serious power kicking all the way into the single digits. 

You can't drop a "might sell" bombshell without a good explanation! What's going on? What are you thinking?


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## ALMFamily

Todd Anderson said:


> Your measurements look amazing... you have serious power kicking all the way into the single digits.
> 
> You can't drop a "might sell" bombshell without a good explanation! What's going on? What are you thinking?


Sorry, that was not nice, was it? :bigsmile:

I found my speakers, and in the process, was "subjected" to a horn sub. I am planning on going with the JTR Noesis 212s for a front stage. JTR also makes the "Orbit Shifter" which is about the size of a small refrigerator. Just one of those has more impact that all three of my subs together - and it was clean... We listened to a few different music tracks, but the track that really showed the whole system off was Metallica's "One". Honestly, when I left, I felt like I had been pummeled. :devil:


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## Todd Anderson

Sounds awesome. Never heard of it... hope it kicks when you get it into that beautiful HT of yours! :hsd:


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## Prof.

WOW!! Joe..A JTR Orbit Shifter!! That is one serious sub!! :yikes:
I hope your room construction is solid! :hsd:


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## B- one

ALMFamily said:


> That said, I am strongly considering going a different route for subs, so I may be selling a couple soon...


But I'm buying a new display I can't afford a sub right now. One sub to overpower them all!! Orbit Shifter says it all.


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## Todd Anderson

That looks like a monster. They are running a special for $1699?

How much does it weight? I mean, if you're going to knock the earth off its path, it's gotta weigh a ton!


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## ALMFamily

Todd Anderson said:


> Sounds awesome. Never heard of it... hope it kicks when you get it into that beautiful HT of yours! :hsd:


I had not heard one until just this past Wednesday - now, I cannot forget it! 



Prof. said:


> WOW!! Joe..A JTR Orbit Shifter!! That is one serious sub!! :yikes:
> I hope your room construction is solid! :hsd:


I blame you Prof - all that talk about your horn subs and all.... :bigsmile:



B- one said:


> But I'm buying a new display I can't afford a sub right now. One sub to overpower them all!! Orbit Shifter says it all.


There was a little discussion at the Iowa GTG about Jeff maybe doing something even bigger - perhaps I will suggest he call it the Galaxy Shifter!



Todd Anderson said:


> That looks like a monster. They are running a special for $1699?
> 
> How much does it weight? I mean, if you're going to knock the earth off its path, it's gotta weigh a ton!


Yup, they are. It weighs in at 185 lbs.....:flex:


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## MrAngles

That is nuts, so you need a 4000 watt amp to power it? Where would you put it, in front of the sump pump enclosure?


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## ALMFamily

MrAngles said:


> That is nuts, so you need a 4000 watt amp to power it? Where would you put it, in front of the sump pump enclosure?


No, I was thinking right below the screen. It is 32" deep so would come out to right about where the sump pump wall is. Then, I would get a gramma dude and put the center channel on top of it. That was the initial thought anyway. I may even have room to do 2 if I put one in front of the sump closet...hmmmm.... :devil:


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## MrAngles

ALMFamily said:


> I may even have room to do 2 if I put one in front of the sump closet...hmmmm.... :devil:


For the sake of the planet, please no!


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## HTip

Wow Joe! That's one serious sub :yikes: Hope you have good house assurance 

And could you please try to let the earth stay in this orbit. I like it this way


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## ALMFamily

HTip said:


> Wow Joe! That's one serious sub :yikes: Hope you have good house assurance
> 
> And could you please try to let the earth stay in this orbit. I like it this way


I know - and it is on sale right now too! When I get back from LSAF, I think I have some classifieds to create...


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## Prof.

ALMFamily said:


> I blame you Prof - all that talk about your horn subs and all.... :bigsmile:


Sorry about that! :R 
On another note..My sub driver problem seems to have righted itself! It's probably gotten use to going past it's max. excursion limits!!


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## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Sorry about that! :R
> On another note..My sub driver problem seems to have righted itself! It's probably gotten use to going past it's max. excursion limits!!


Great news! Did you not have to order the one from PE then?


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## Prof.

Fortunately it came good before I ordered the Dayton driver from PE..
But it's still not a 100% though..Playing the opening scenes from "Prometheus" still sends it into shock!


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## kadijk

Haven't been on for a while. Wow. Changes. Horn loaded sub? Welcome to my world!! You could DIY and build the kravchenko like I did. I'm not sure it can be beat...especially for the cost. Have fun exploring this new avenue...


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## pdfamily

ALMFamily said:


> ALMFamilyconstr
> 
> I continued on the riser last night. Since I plan on doing trim around the outside, I marked off lines on 3 sides 2" in from the edge. The trim piece will extend 1.5" over the edge to allow me to put lighting underneath.
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> After I had each one on, I set the trim piece on just to make sure I was still in line with the marks I drew. I had to do a little trimming with the jigsaw to ensure I stayed straight.
> 
> Last, I got all the outlets wired up and tested each one - thankfully, they all worked.
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What is the height of the riser?

What type wood did you use for trim?

How difficult is it to lay the carpet on the riser?

Oh and thanks for directing me to your thread.


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## ALMFamily

pdfamily said:


> What is the height of the riser?
> 
> What type wood did you use for trim?
> 
> How difficult is it to lay the carpet on the riser?
> 
> Oh and thanks for directing me to your thread.


You bet!

The height ended up being just under 10" - I used 2x8s to make the structure and then did two layers of 3/4" OSB on top with a layer of roofing paper between those two layers. When I did the top layer of OSB, I cut it so that I left a gap around the perimeter to lay the trim on. I used unfinished oak that I stained myself for the trim.

As far as I could tell, not difficult for the carpeting at all. I had it installed professionally, but I watched them do it. They cut a piece to fit the top and use those clamping tracks to get it in place. Then, they just used those tacking strips along the base and went right up to the riser with the carpet.

And, I really need to update my build - I finally got my rear speakers up....


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## Prof.

Have you got that super sub yet Joe?


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## ALMFamily

Prof. said:


> Have you got that super sub yet Joe?


Not yet - I am going to be listing my PB-13s first. Need to get some pictures taken....


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## Owen Bartley

ALMFamily said:


> the track that really showed the whole system off was Metallica's "One".


Joe, Metallica really do have a few tracks with fantastic drums. I think it was Bad Seed that had a pummeling section of drums in it that I used to love. Looking forward to seeing the progress as you plan to send the Earth spinning out of control.


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## daddieo

Real nice colors choices with everything. The woodwork is installed and finished with a craftmans level of skill. Your lighting treatments are very creative and well executed as well. Most Excellent


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## ALMFamily

daddieo said:


> Real nice colors choices with everything. The woodwork is installed and finished with a craftmans level of skill. Your lighting treatments are very creative and well executed as well. Most Excellent


Thank you sir! I really need to put the finishing touches on this thread as I am starting the "foyer" area this winter.

Oh, and I hope you are signed up for the newsletter - something you need to see there!


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## ALMFamily

Well, it has taken me a long time to get around to posting these, but here are a few pictures of what I ended up doing for the rear channels.

We decided to build our own speaker mounts that would allow us to hang them without having to drill holes in the cabinets. We did it by making two separate pieces and then joining them with a twistable screw that would allow me to tilt the speakers however I wanted and then lock them into place. I also mounted them in the soffit with a twistable gear so that I could swivel them as I wanted. Of course, I stained them to match the rest of the trim.

Here are a few pictures:






















This pretty much ended the work in the theater - I just have a few small odds and ends things to clean up that are pretty much filler work. That said, I will be starting the "lobby" area in the next couple weeks, and I will likely start a new thread for that.


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## tonyvdb

Looks great Joe as usual


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## ALMFamily

tonyvdb said:


> Looks great Joe as usual


Thanks Tony! I cannot believe it took me so long to get the pictures posted - I finished them almost 3 months ago. :R


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## JQueen

That's awesome looks great


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## ALMFamily

JQueen said:


> That's awesome looks great


Thanks!

One of these days, I am going to go through and create a short version of this thread. 89 pages is a lot of reading...


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## daddieo

Quite ingenious, good old fashioned Yankee ingenuity at its best. But honesty, do you really think anyone is ever truely finished working/tinkering/tweaking on our theater's?


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## ALMFamily

daddieo said:


> Quite ingenious, good old fashioned Yankee ingenuity at its best. But honesty, do you really think anyone is ever truely finished working/tinkering/tweaking on our theater's?


Haha - good point. Likely, this has become one lifelong continuing project for me... :bigsmile:


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## mpednault

Just read thru ALMOST this entire build and it was great to see the progress from start to finish without ever seeing it before hand. And I just have ONE comment to make........

I can't believe NO ONE mentioned the Hello Kitty tape used to hold the fibers!!!!!!!


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## Prof.

That's a neat idea Joe..Very affective! :T


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## ALMFamily

mpednault said:


> Just read thru ALMOST this entire build and it was great to see the progress from start to finish without ever seeing it before hand. And I just have ONE comment to make........
> 
> I can't believe NO ONE mentioned the Hello Kitty tape used to hold the fibers!!!!!!!


I know right! I thought for certain someone would say something! :rofl2:



Prof. said:


> That's a neat idea Joe..Very affective! :T


Thanks Prof!


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## JBrax

Very nice Joe! May I ask what kind of surround speakers those are? Very creative idea indeed.


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## ALMFamily

JBrax said:


> Very nice Joe! May I ask what kind of surround speakers those are? Very creative idea indeed.


Thanks Jeff! 

They are the Salk SongSurround Is. I had them finished in fiddleback sycamore.


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## Wardsweb

I really like your solution for hanging your speakers. It speaks not only to my love of audio but my love for wood working. Well played sir.


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## ALMFamily

Wardsweb said:


> I really like your solution for hanging your speakers. It speaks not only to my love of audio by my love for wood working. Well played sir.


Thanks Luther - after seeing all your beautiful projects, that is heady praise indeed!


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## Owen Bartley

Nice work on the speaker mounts, Joe. They fit in really well with the rest of the room. I like that you have the flexibility to adjust them later too, if you find that you need to fine tune the sound.


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## HTip

ALMFamily said:


> Oh, and I hope you are signed up for the newsletter - something you need to see there!


Nice article Joe! Got to know you a little better this way :T

Your finished theater looks great! Good luck on your next project, the foyer... It's on my list as well, but yours will be finished a lot sooner


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## ALMFamily

Owen Bartley said:


> Nice work on the speaker mounts, Joe. They fit in really well with the rest of the room. I like that you have the flexibility to adjust them later too, if you find that you need to fine tune the sound.





HTip said:


> Nice article Joe! Got to know you a little better this way :T
> 
> Your finished theater looks great! Good luck on your next project, the foyer... It's on my list as well, but yours will be finished a lot sooner


Thanks a bunch guys!

Sitting in the airport waiting - looking forward to my first RMAF!


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## Owen Bartley

Hope you enjoy it Joe. Have a safe flight and take lots of notes and pictures to share with us when you get home (especially the pictutes).


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## ALMFamily

Owen Bartley said:


> Hope you enjoy it Joe. Have a safe flight and take lots of notes and pictures to share with us when you get home (especially the pictutes).


Landed and at the hotel. If you want, check out the Facebook page through the weekend to see some initial pictures and quick thoughts.


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## JQueen

ALMFamily said:


> Landed and at the hotel. If you want, check out the Facebook page through the weekend to see some initial pictures and quick thoughts.


Glad to hear you made if safe, enjoy and looking forward to the info


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## kevin360

Wow! It's no wonder this thread has over 65,000 views - it's the most awesome thread of its type I've ever viewed (and it took several visits to go through it all - in fairness to the many others who have created similarly beautiful rooms, I'm fairly new here and there are many threads that I haven't perused yet). Your patience is almost as incredible as your room - two years of work. Impatient cretin that I am, I hustled through my build in about two months (and it shows :laugh. These really elegant rooms make me jealous, as do those large, wide screens (and the close seating - my focus was on optimizing a space for planar speakers, which resulted in a non-optimized viewing setup). You did a superb job and created a spectacular space that I hope you enjoy for many years. Your thought and ingenuity are obvious in everything I see. :T


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## ALMFamily

kevin360 said:


> Wow! It's no wonder this thread has over 65,000 views - it's the most awesome thread of its type I've ever viewed (and it took several visits to go through it all - in fairness to the many others who have created similarly beautiful rooms, I'm fairly new here and there are many threads that I haven't perused yet). Your patience is almost as incredible as your room - two years of work. Impatient cretin that I am, I hustled through my build in about two months (and it shows :laugh. These really elegant rooms make me jealous, as do those large, wide screens (and the close seating - my focus was on optimizing a space for planar speakers, which resulted in a non-optimized viewing setup). You did a superb job and created a spectacular space that I hope you enjoy for many years. Your thought and ingenuity are obvious in everything I see. :T


Hey Kevin - sorry, I somehow missed an update in my own build thread! Thanks very much for the compliments - it really ended up being a labor of love near the end... 

If you enjoyed that, wait until you see.......


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## ALMFamily

The ALMFamily Theater Lobby!!!


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