# Best 7.1 or 5.1 Surround Speaker Heights



## AVoldMan

I have seen conflicting or confusing suggestions regarding the height of side and rear surround speakers. DTS and Dolby people have the overhead placement (angles from front and center) identified. However, height from listening ear position has several different descriptions - from ear level to 1 meter above. My Onkyo AV Receiver says about six feet from the floor. Others say it depends on program material music vs. movie and whether the system is 5.1 vs. 7.1.

Is the there a best speaker height for the surround speakers?


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## Prof.

AVoldMan said:


> My Onkyo AV Receiver says about six feet from the floor.


That's the generally accepted position for surrounds..


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## AVoldMan

What I find confusing is the fact that if you carefully look at the pictorial diagrams from DTS and Dolby Labs they seem to indicate speakers that are at the same vertical height (about seated ear level). However, they really don't state or specify an actual speaker height. 

Then where do the AV receiver manufacturer's get their recommendation of 6 feet?


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## Prof.

Well if you think about the main type of sounds you're going to hear in the surround speakers..namely jets and helicopters flying overhead, or thunder overhead..even the ambient sounds of birds..These types of sounds dictate that the speakers need to be fairly high above your head when seated..
This why most people set their speakers at the 6' position..It sounds more realistic..

Also DTS states that the rear speakers should only be a couple of feet apart..but many people prefer them to be more like 6'-8' apart..

Nothing is set in concrete!


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## spartanstew

Additionally, our brains have a harder time locating (pinpointing) sounds from above, so it's best to have sides and rears a couple of feet above the ear position. Surround sound should be enveloping, not locate-able.


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## Prof.

Ideally we need both..
General background ambient sounds should not be locatable, but something like a door closing to the side of you, needs to be more direct sound..


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## spartanstew

Prof. said:


> Ideally we need both..
> General background ambient sounds should not be locatable, but something like a door closing to the side of you, needs to be more direct sound..


Yes, but a speaker placed anywhere from 2' - 7' high would accomplish the same thing in terms of localizing a door closing. Most sounds that would need to be "more direct" from a surround sound standpoint would not be dependent upon the height of the speaker (location on the vertical plane), but would rely on the correct horizontal plane placement.


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## Prof.

It also depends on the type of surround speaker you're using as well..
Monopoles tend to give more direct sound than bipoles or dipoles..
I have found tripoles give the best of both worlds..


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## Kingdom of Hearts

This might sound crazy but why not have 8 speakers that separates those sounds (birds, jets, etc.) from doors, people talking and the likes? I understand it becomes a really complicated business when you have that many audio channels being separated-especially when making a movie-but is this a plausible possibility?


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## AVoldMan

So it seems that from the prior comments that there are no official speaker height specifications from the surround sound developers - DTS and Dolby Labs. It really is difficult enoughsetting up a system with all the known technical details. It bothers me that they don't tell anyone what's the best setup for their own systems!


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## AVoldMan

spartanstew said:


> Yes, but a speaker placed anywhere from 2' - 7' high would accomplish the same thing in terms of localizing a door closing. *Most sounds that would need to be "more direct" from a surround sound standpoint would not be dependent upon the height of the speaker* (location on the vertical plane), but would rely on the correct horizontal plane placement.


This is my experience and present 7.1 setup. I have LCR Front speakers about ear level when seated. The LR Surrounds are about 6 feet from the floor or 1 meter above seated ear height. The Rear Surrounds are on a book shelf at about 12" above seated ear height. BTW all speakers are a monopole design.

While watching the new Sherlock Holmes DTS-MA 5.1 sound movie there is a scene were Lord Blackwood is taunting Sherlock from various places around a room. The scene appears to be on a single level (one floor) but for my 7.1 sound setup the bad guy seems to be located on a second floor balcony that is not in the film.

The surround location is basically too high from my perspective for this particular scene. That is the only concrete example that I have had with that misleading audio experience.


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## Prof.

That sort of thing does happen with some movies..
It probably depends on how well the post production is produced..

I have that movie and I remember the opening scene where there's the sound of a horse carriage that comes into the scene from behind and to the left..Initially the sound is quite high up in the room, which is not where you would expect the sound to be coming from!

I can't recall the Lord Blackwood scene off hand, as to the surround sound effect..
I might play it again tonight and check that out..


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## Prof.

Kingdom of Hearts said:


> This might sound crazy but why not have 8 speakers that separates those sounds (birds, jets, etc.) from doors, people talking and the likes? I understand it becomes a really complicated business when you have that many audio channels being separated-especially when making a movie-but is this a plausible possibility?


The surround effect can be enhanced with multiple surround speakers..but certainly not 8 in your average listening room..
Some have used 3 surrounds on each side wall with great affect, but it does require separate amps for each speaker..


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## AVoldMan

Prof. said:


> ... I remember the opening scene where there's the sound of a horse carriage that comes into the scene from behind and to the left..Initially the sound is quite high up in the room, which is not where you would expect the sound to be coming from!
> 
> I can't recall the Lord Blackwood scene off hand, as to the surround sound effect..


I checked out the opening scene. On a more critical listen, I agree it's not quite right. A floating horse and carriage. I think initially it did not stick in my mind because it is not as common a sound that we would hear today. I think I just felt the sound was being reflected off the building walls. It did not draw attention to itself.

The scene that I was referring to is at time 1:20:00 (h:m:s) on the BluRay disc. Sherlock and Watson are in the abandoned pig warehouse/lab. Sherlock just cuts the tail off the dead rat. Soon after Blackwood's voice seems to rotate around the room. Then there is a rear to left (of listener) pan movement that seems to rise to the nonexistent second floor. I think this scene bothered me because a human voice is more familiar than the horse and carriage.

What do you think?


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## Prof.

AVoldMan said:


> I checked out the opening scene. On a more critical listen, I agree it's not quite right. A floating horse and carriage. I think initially it did not stick in my mind because it is not as common a sound that we would hear today. I think I just felt the sound was being reflected off the building walls. It did not draw attention to itself.


Yes, I checked out that scene last night and what I noticed is that the camera is pointing down at the cobble stones when the first sounds of the horse carriage start to come from the left rear..That's what makes the sounds seem to high.. 



> The scene that I was referring to is at time 1:20:00 (h:m:s) on the BluRay disc. Sherlock and Watson are in the abandoned pig warehouse/lab. Sherlock just cuts the tail off the dead rat. Soon after Blackwood's voice seems to rotate around the room. Then there is a rear to left (of listener) pan movement that seems to rise to the nonexistent second floor. I think this scene bothered me because a human voice is more familiar than the horse and carriage.
> 
> What do you think?


Actually there are two different scenes where Blackwoods voice moves around the back of the room..
I found that both scenes pan his voice around the room at the same height as Holmes through the whole sequence, with my surrounds..and they are positioned 6' above floor level..

I had forgotten how deep some of those bass sounds are..and Zimmer's orchestral music just blows you out of your chair...Excellent stuff! :T


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## AVoldMan

Prof. said:


> Actually there are two different scenes where Blackwoods voice moves around the back of the room..
> I found that both scenes pan his voice around the room at the same height as Holmes through the whole sequence, with my surrounds..and they are positioned 6' above floor level..


Now you have me thinking that my surround speaker height locations or positions may be my problem. My theater room really is "not". It's the family room which is open to the kitchen on the left side of the room. I have alot of traffic flow that needs to be accomadated and 3 door ways to limit placement. However, my surrounds are are at the following heights: Left= 6.5', Left Rear= 4', Right Rear= 4' and Right= 6'. The room is not large (13.5' width) and the center listening posiiton has 7.5' to the left wall and 5.5' to the right wall. 

This means that the vertical angles to the speakers on the wall are quite aggressive at around 30 degrees up from seated ear level. The L and R side surrounds are rather fixed in position due to the room limitations. The rear surrounds could possibly be moved up or down.

Does DTS or Dolby Labs every recommend a vertical angle spec for their systems?

BTW all the speakers axes are directed at the listener (high surrounds angled down to listener).


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## Prof.

AVoldMan said:


> Now you have me thinking that my surround speaker height locations or positions may be my problem. My theater room really is "not". It's the family room which is open to the kitchen on the left side of the room. I have alot of traffic flow that needs to be accomadated and 3 door ways to limit placement. However, my surrounds are are at the following heights: Left= 6.5', Left Rear= 4', Right Rear= 4' and Right= 6'. The room is not large (13.5' width) and the center listening posiiton has 7.5' to the left wall and 5.5' to the right wall.


As soon as you move away from a symmetrical layout ( including seating position ) there can be all sorts of problems..
Added to that you have openings to contend with..It's not surprising that you're hearing surround sounds in the wrong position..and unfortunately there's not much you can do to improve things in that situation.. 



> This means that the vertical angles to the speakers on the wall are quite aggressive at around 30 degrees up from seated ear level. The L and R side surrounds are rather fixed in position due to the room limitations. The rear surrounds could possibly be moved up or down.


Pointing the speakers down is fine..In fact my own speakers are pointing down also because of my narrow room..
You could try angling them up a bit so the sound is directed slightly above your head,(that's how I have mine) and I would also raise up the rears to be inline with the side speakers..



> Does DTS or Dolby Labs every recommend a vertical angle spec for their systems?


Not that I'm aware of..


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## gdstupak

AVoldMan said:


> Does DTS or Dolby Labs every recommend a vertical angle spec for their systems?


I always understood that the surround speakers are not to be angled up or down, just straight out.
Not that I've ever read that info, but all pics I have ever seen from Dolby and DTS show them pointing straight out at about a 6' height.


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## robbo266317

Perhaps with a large enough room you could aim them straight out. However most Home Theaters are a compromise regarding positioning and layout. So you "tweak" the design to give the speakers a better chance of providing a better on-axis response at the listening position(s).


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## AVoldMan

gdstupak said:


> I always understood that the surround speakers are not to be angled up or down, just straight out.
> Not that I've ever read that info, but all pics I have ever seen from Dolby and DTS show them pointing straight out at about a 6' height.


I have seen the same pictures/diagrams. In my Onkyo AV Receiver manual that's what they recommend. However, other pictures seem to place all speakers on an axis toward the listener and at seated ear level height.

This is just one topic that's so confusing and frustrating about the whole HT subject. I choose to aim speakers at the main listener to maximize frequency response (as previsouly mentioned) and not have a significant off-axis rolloff effect.

I wish manufacturers or standards would be specified so that intelligent compromises could be made by users based on the optimum right case. My guess is the recording program material probably has different setups for different uses - like moive sound effects or musical recordings. IDK.


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## AVoldMan

Prof. said:


> As soon as you move away from a symmetrical layout ( including seating position ) there can be all sorts of problems..


Doesn't the pure time delay (speaker distance to listener) in the AV processor take care of the non-symmetric effects? Or am I missing other effects that I don't understand?

The problem with the Sherlock Holmes scene mentioned is that it is located where the speaker is located - high. I think the sound (and maybe the speaker) should really should be located lower - near ear level.

Have not tried tilting the speaker axis up a little (more level). Should be easy to try!


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## Prof.

Generally with surround sound speaker placement. If you have a wide room..say 15' or wider, the speakers can be placed flat against the side walls..If the room is narrower than that, then the speakers need to be angled down...The narrower the room, the steeper the angle..

I have quite a narrow room and my speakers are angled down quite a bit so that the speakers are pointing just over the top of my head..

Likewise for the rears..If there is a big space behind the seated position to the back wall, then the rears can be positioned flat against the wall..
If the back wall is close to the seats, then the rears should be angled down to just above the head again..
In all probability if that's the case, then you wouldn't really need rears anyway..

When it comes to non symmetric layouts..The AVR can only compensate for room reverberations and some time delay variations..It can adjust levels for variations in speaker positioning, but it can't adjust for how you will actually perceive the sound to sound like..Your ears are a much more finely tuned instrument.!

I will add that in your environment (not being a dedicated theatre ) it is worth trying the surrounds at ear level..It may help to locate sounds more accurately..


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## AVoldMan

Prof. said:


> When it comes to non symmetric layouts..The AVR can only compensate for room reverberations and some time delay variations..It can adjust levels for variations in speaker positioning, but it can't adjust for how you will actually perceive the sound to sound like..Your ears are a much more finely tuned instrument.!
> 
> I will add that in your environment (not being a dedicated theatre ) it is worth trying the surrounds at ear level..It may help to locate sounds more accurately..


I really have no idea what algorithms or processing is going on in my Onkyo HT-RC260 AV Receiver for 5.1 or 7.1 source material or the simulated surround field with stereo music. I did not mention it before, but I do not have the Audyssey processor turned on. In fact, I have not used it's automatic microphone calibration procedure yet. Would this make a significant change in the sound I'm hearing or the sound field produced? What should I expect to be different? 

BTW I have manually measured and entered the individual speaker distances from the main listening position and adjusted each speaker level with a Radio Shack Sound Level Meter to within +/-1 db.

As far as the left or the right side surround speaker height I wanted to mount them at ear level but a walkway and a couch prevented me from doing it. So I used the 6' off the floor recommendation in the AV receiver manual.


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## Prof.

AVoldMan said:


> I really have no idea what algorithms or processing is going on in my Onkyo HT-RC260 AV Receiver for 5.1 or 7.1 source material or the simulated surround field with stereo music. I did not mention it before, but I do not have the Audyssey processor turned on. In fact, I have not used it's automatic microphone calibration procedure yet. Would this make a significant change in the sound I'm hearing or the sound field produced? What should I expect to be different?


Yes..definitely run Audyssey! The processor is there to compensate for different room environments.. 



> BTW I have manually measured and entered the individual speaker distances from the main listening position and adjusted each speaker level with a Radio Shack Sound Level Meter to within +/-1 db.


Physically measuring the distance between the various speakers is not necessarily how Audyssey will set it up..
My MCACC processor sets the surround speakers closer in distance than they measure physically..

After you've run Audyssey, you should also check your speaker levels and crossover point again..

The other thing that will help correct sound imbalances is acoustic treatments..
I realize that in a living room environment there's not a lot you can do, but anything will help..


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## AVoldMan

Prof. said:


> After you've run Audyssey, you should also check your speaker levels and crossover point again..
> 
> The other thing that will help correct sound imbalances is acoustic treatments..
> I realize that in a living room environment there's not a lot you can do, but anything will help..


So the Audyssey 2EQ calibration (on my AV Onkyo RC260 Receiver) may change speaker distances (delays), individual volume levels and crossover frequency points to attain it's goal. Yes or more? Would I have to tweak anything after or measure any SPLs with a meter to check the results?

Actually for acoustics when we are really listening to music or a movie soundtrack I bring in some large movable pillows and small area rugs and try to place them at first reflection points from walls and floor. It helps to clean up the sound quite a bit.


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## gdstupak

AVoldMan said:


> So the Audyssey 2EQ calibration (on my AV Onkyo RC260 Receiver) may change speaker distances (delays), individual volume levels and crossover frequency points to attain it's goal. Yes or more? Would I have to tweak anything after or measure any SPLs with a meter to check the results?


If you let Audyssey take several measurements from different areas of the room, then the calculated speaker distances and speaker volume levels probably wouldn't be the same as what you would personally measure from your primary listening position because Audyssey will try to make it sound best for multiple listening positions.
The only things I always have to tweak are the crossover settings and the volume level of the sub (LFE) output. Audyssey/Onkyo usually makes the LFE volume way too high.


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## Prof.

AVoldMan said:


> So the Audyssey 2EQ calibration (on my AV Onkyo RC260 Receiver) may change speaker distances (delays), individual volume levels and crossover frequency points to attain it's goal. Yes or more? Would I have to tweak anything after or measure any SPLs with a meter to check the results?


It's always advisable to check everything after you've run an EQ processor..
After I've run MCACC on my AVR I check the following..

Speaker size.
Crossover point.
Speaker and sub levels.
EQ individual frequency levels..

Audyssey may be a bit different, but it's always advisable to check everything you can..These processors are not perfect!



> Actually for acoustics when we are really listening to music or a movie soundtrack I bring in some large movable pillows and small area rugs and try to place them at first reflection points from walls and floor. It helps to clean up the sound quite a bit.


:T


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## AVoldMan

Prof. said:


> Speaker size.
> Crossover point.
> Speaker and sub levels.
> EQ individual frequency levels..
> 
> Audyssey may be a bit different, but it's always advisable to check everything you can..These processors are not perfect!


I agree with the list. How do I check? Just look for something that's way out of expected? Measure with a SPL meter? Run a REW measurent and analyze the performance? I'm at a loss for what to do after I run auto calibration. That's probably why I didn't do it in the first place!


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## AVoldMan

AVoldMan said:


> ... Does DTS or Dolby Labs every recommend a vertical angle spec for their systems?


Well, I was doing a little research on the Audyssey website and they did give one recommendation for speaker height it was 45 degrees elevation above the listener's ears for their Front (L&R) High Speaker locations in a 11.1 or 9.1 system that they are describing. By ommision, it appears all the other speakers should be 0 degrees or at ear level for the listener.

This basically directly conflicts with what my Onkyo AV Receiver's User Guide recommends - at 6 feet from the ground for surrounds. It's pretty bad when the manufacturers can't even agree on what is optimum.


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## gdstupak

From Crutchfield:
".. Surround speakers should be placed high enough so that the drivers do not fire directly at your ears when you're sitting down — one rule of thumb is to place them at ear level while standing. (If your surround speakers fire directly at your ears, they can overpower your front speakers.)
.. If your surrounds are mounted on the side walls on adjustable brackets, experiment with aiming them. You may get good results from pointing them at the ceiling or toward the rear corners of the room."

From THX:
"Place the SL & SR speakers between 90° to 110° to each side and 2 feet or higher above the listener. The SL & SR speakers recreate the enveloping sound and intense special effects that you experience in the cinema."

From Dolby:
"....just above ear level"
also,
"Similarly, when fine-tuning the placement of the surrounds, keep the idea of the coherent system in mind.
Surround sounds should emanate from within a general area (covering the sides and rear of the room). Even if
the surround sounds can be localized, the localization should be from within this overall area and not just from
an individual speaker. The sonic image should be a single entity or environment."
Dolby admits that not all systems are the same so there is no one perfect set up. They believe in giving general statements such as "...just above ear level" and then telling you to listen and experiment with the placement. They also say to keep a clear path between your speaker and ear, I think this would rule out placing surrounds directly at ear level unless all listeners can still have a clear path to the speaker.


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## AVoldMan

gdstupak said:


> (1) From Crutchfield:
> ".. Surround speakers should be placed high enough so that the drivers do not fire directly at your ears when you're sitting down — one rule of thumb is to place them at ear level while standing. (If your surround speakers fire directly at your ears, they can overpower your front speakers.)"
> 
> (2) From Dolby:
> ... They also say to keep a clear path between your speaker and ear, I think this would rule out placing surrounds directly at ear level unless all listeners can still have a clear path to the speaker.


Interesting collection of suggestions. I'm sure there are more! 

The first note above seems to be technically incorrect. If the surrounds are over powering the fronts then the volume levels are probably incorrect or not calibrated in the first place.

The second note above has a practical suggestion for optimizing the surround experience for more than a single person sitting in the sweat spot. This is something that did not really occur to me although it does have a good logical basis and makes sense. In addition, this train of thought would really make the 110 degree horizontal position better than 90 degrees because 90 (right angle) position would be partially blocked by a person seated to either the right or left of center.


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## gdstupak

AVoldMan said:


> The first note above seems to be technically incorrect. If the surrounds are over powering the fronts then the volume levels are probably incorrect or not calibrated in the first place.


They may not mean over powering in terms of volume, but that because the sounds are more direct, they may distract you.


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## Prof.

AVoldMan said:


> I agree with the list. How do I check? Just look for something that's way out of expected? Measure with a SPL meter? Run a REW measurent and analyze the performance? I'm at a loss for what to do after I run auto calibration. That's probably why I didn't do it in the first place!


I've never used Audyssey so I'm not sure how versatile it is when it comes to making manual adjustments..

After running "Auto" calibration with MCACC, I can then select "Manual" and make adjustments to just about anything in the program..Firstly checking to see if the speaker size has been set to "Small" and that the crossover is at 80Hz..
The next thing I would check is speaker levels, using an SPL meter..
Other adjustments I don't make until after extensive listening and then I might tweak one or two individual frequencies to bring about a better balance of sound..
But as I said, I'm not sure just how much manual adjustment you can make with Audyssey..

With surround speakers there is no absolute correct location for all..DTS, THX and Dolby give you a starting point..but the right height, location and angle of the speakers can only be be determined after trying several different positions..
It can depend on size of the room, the acoustics, seating locations and general preference as to how you like to hear surround sounds..ie more direct or more enveloping..

It took me months of listening to a variety of movies and trying slight variations of positioning and angling of the speakers before I found the ideal location..
Even moving the speakers within that 90 -110 degree or further back can make a big difference..
It's all just a matter of trial and error..Part of the fun of home theatre!


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## Roger Dressler

Dolby has recommended that surrounds be 2-3 feet above seated ear level for over 20 years.


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