# DIY - Looking to make an Epic Fullrange



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Here is my current setup:

*Sub:* Double 12" Passive Radiator crossing over at 80 Hz.
*Front low Left and low Right:* Anthony Gallo Adiva Ti'
*Receiver:*: Onkyo 607

Im after two new units which will be used as my upper left and upper right. Assume that this system will be used entirely for music. Im trying to create a fullrange speaker with mid range warmth to compensate by the lack of midrange in the Anthony Gallo's. My budget is around $120-$160 per unit, assuming no cost for materials or labour. 

I have all of the materials and tools available to make my own speakers so I have decided to go DIY to save money. I dont know what kind of speaker would suit my requirements though, so I would love someone to recommend either a kit or plans to make a speaker that will really make me go "wow", I really want this speaker to sound incredible.

Really the key questions are:

1. Which "shape" should I be looking at making. Is a trapezoid better than a box?
2. Should I be looking at a 2 way or 3 way system?
3. What kind of drivers should I be looking for?

- James


----------



## 1Michael (Nov 2, 2006)

In that price range I think your looking at a MT, 2way...
Have a look here http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39 
and here http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=211558&AID=1482282&PID=2777698


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Thank you for the reply. Ill look through these. What is MT btw?


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Can I please have your opinion on this kit:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=302-950&ctab=1#Tabs

It is $300. However, I believe when I order the parts without the speaker cabinet (which I will make myself), it should come out at about $190, which is $30 over budget, which im happy to pay if it is worth it.

If there is a better kit / DIY guide for this kit, please point me in this direction. Ive heard this driver is very good for its price range.


----------



## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Yeah the $300 figure is each, so $600 for the pair but that does include cabinets.

Here is a link to the kit not including the cabinets. It is still $200 each, $400 per the pair.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-855

There are a TON of designs out there in that price point, especially if you build the cabinets yourself and dont consider the cost of materials and finishing (signifigant in my opinion) 

I don't know anything about that kit. D'appolito is supposed to be a great designer and the Usher drivers are apparently great drivers from what I've heard. The cones on the woofers look pretty ugly if you ask me, tho honestly, when it comes to a great pair of speakers who cares what they look like.

I'll throw in my opinion (even tho you didn't ask for it and probably don't want it) But if that were my budget here are some of the designs I'd be looking at 

http://www.audioheuristics.org/projects_gallery/ER18DXT/ER18DXT.htm (should be incredible, lots of headroom for HT and great dispersion)

Or Zaph's new kit, this one comes in quite a bit lower than your budget.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8651
If you blow your buget a bit you can build the 8 woofer version
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8652

There are plenty of others, all great, but within your budget these are the first ones that really jump out at me as being great values and bringing to the table some things a lot of other designs don't. (Eg very low distortion, or very high sensitivity.)


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

> I'll throw in my opinion (even tho you didn't ask for it and probably don't want it)


Of course I want your opinion, I feel a little swamped with the amount of choice I have (and lack of knowledge) so any input I get is hugely appreciated! I think I have decided that im looking at a wall mounted MTM or MT setup. I dont have a lot of space and my budget isnt huge so I think this is the way forward.

This does raise some questions though. If anyone could give me a bit more help it would help me a lot.


Since this is for music and HT, what difference should I be looking for in a speaker. What makes a speaker more suitable to music not HT?

On your kit with madisound, it looks like a bargain. However what I dont understand with the second kit is, why are there so many of the same driver in a single unit. What benefit does adding an additional driver

I think the best way I can go forward is to find 5 kits that I like, and see which you guys would pick if it were your own money. Ill keep looking for kits, if anyone has any more suggestions please do throw them in as I am a little swamped with choice and would like hear which kits actually perform well. I like the look of the seas as they are in my price range and the instructions are very clear.

This also may sound a little vain, but has anyone seen any good performing kits with the yellow or gold driver cones? The look really cool, and it would make my kit look a little more interesting.


----------



## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Well having a bunch of the same driver achieves a couple of goals, its a 2.5 way, so you've got the tweeter handling the highs, the next two woofers handling the mids and bass and the last two woofers handling the bass. You get increased sensitivity (greater dynamics and more loudness per watt) and lower distortion, in a nice looking tall skinny tower with no big honking wife offending 12" woofersin it. Also that driver the ZA5 is a fantastic driver for a fantastic price.

However if you're going on or in wall you need a design that is made specifically for mounting on or in wall otherwise the midbass and low bass will sound boomy due to having the immediate wall reflection. (if you need to know more about this I can try to dig up some reading, try googling baffle step compensation and 2pi space vs 4pi space).

Let me see if I can post some designs that are known to have on wall / in wall crossovers available. And possibly something with some yellow or gold drivers.

Here is an on/in wall MTM that I believe can be had for under $400 a pair.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22626









Here is a thread for an MTM using the gold/bronze colored hivi drivers
http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=33961
You'd have to e-mail paul and see if he could whip up an on wall version of the crossover for you tho, otherwise it won't sound right.


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Thank you for the reply. The link on HTGuide is great, they are really nice. I just have a few more questions! After considering it a little more, I am starting to think a MT might be more suitable than a MTM for the fronts, and then I think I can offset this with MTM's behind since this is predominantly for music.

1. Generally speaking, how much worse is a MT over an MTM. I say this because all of my rooms are small. Two wall mounted 20" high speakers may be a little dominating for the front I think. 

2. Should I be looking for a 7" driver or a 6" driver in combination with a tweeter? (taking into account I have a sub to handle frequencies up to 80hz)

3. Is a ported / vented the best style of speaker for a small 2 way speaker such as this, or is that too general of a comment?


----------



## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Well generally the benefits of MTM vs MT are louder / more efficient, and more low end capability.

As to if sealed or vented is better if you're crossing to your subs at 80hz it probably hardly matters. Tho if a design is made to be ported it may roll off before 80hz if you seal it. You would want to model the woofer in the enclosure before you changed it to sealed just to make sure it didn't cause rolloff before 80hz. Otherwise it doesn't really matter one way or the other. If you plan on running them at any time without a sub ported will probably always be better, and most designs are ported.

As for what size woofer, bigger usually = louder and lower distortion, tho not always. In your case for mains, crossed at 80hz anything 5" and up would probably be fine. If you find a design you like wether it uses a 6" 7" or even 8" woofer, if you like it and its within your budget I'd go for that one.

You keep mentioning going on wall. Do you own this place? Could you go in wall? If so it opens up a lot of possabilites, saves a lot of space, and should sound a lot better.


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi. Thank you for clearing that up for me, I'm 20 and living between uni and home at the moment, so in wall instalations arnt an option, but I'm hoping once I get my own place I can put these drivers in an in-wall setup.

Anyway, for the moment I'll keep looking at kits and try to grab a bargain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 1Michael (Nov 2, 2006)

Here is a $300 project I did that sounds pretty good, and it uses 8" drivers for some nice punch.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-speakers/18814-budget-8-dayton-classic-mtm-rocks.html
In your case you can build it sealed since you have a sub.

One of the better deals I have seen is the Tritrix http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Tritrix
though mine will pound louder...


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

They look awesome! However, Ive decided to go for a MT system for my fronts because I dont have space to put a MTM or higher system on my wall at the front, thank you for the link though, I might try to finish mine the same as yours.


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

If you want a speaker you can mod to hifi. The Behringer 2030p's fill that bill.

If you want a great pair of speakers I suggest you do this kit 
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_40_402_408&products_id=8307

Zaph is an excellent designer and had done extensive research on the best values out there. 

For the binding posts I do suggest you get a circular one so you can use a jasper jig to cut it's mount.

For the interior line half the interior with 2" rock wool and cut some oak rib braces and place them in there to reduce panel resonance. If you want to get a hifi speaker I'd be happy to detail the additional mods needed to get there. It's a lot of work though and these speakers sound great even without them. 

For joints I suggest a 1/4" dado. If you do this you can use a veneered wood and 1/4" quarter round on the joints. Eliminating the need for expensive veneer. It also improves baffle step, box strength and resistance to air leaks. IOTW it's the way to go. 

For your blades I suggest a Forrest brand blade. For your bits I suggest Whiteside or Lee Valley. Make sure you get premium blades and bits. Bad ones can kill. 

I'm sure all the above goes without saying, but we can't ever repeat it enough IMO.

Bottom Crossovers are determined more by the room than the speaker IME. For example in my room 100hz is the spot. But in my old room it was 80hz. Just use your ears to dial it in. LFE is greatly effected by placement so it will vary by room.


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi,

Thank you for your reply. that kit looks perfect actually, right on my price range. I do have one question though, this kit looks the same, but it is a lot cheaper:

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8648

Is the extra cost justified with the kit you posted?

Also, it comes with a cross over but am I going to be able to modify that crossover to account for mounting it on a wall and not having emphasised mid and bass?

Thanks for all the help, i really appreciate it.


----------



## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

The ZA5 uses a smaller cheaper midwoofer 5" instead of 7", metal cone instead of paper and a much cheaper tweeter. That doesn't mean its bad or sounds bad, everyone loves the ZA5, its just a bit "less" than the SR71 in every aspect. I'm sure you will be very happy with either one. Zaph already has an in wall crossover for the ZA5 listed on his web page, you could use that for your speaker if you're mounting on wall.

I don't remember if the SR71 has a crossover posted for mounting in/on wall, you would have to check. Either way swing on over to http://www.zaphaudio.com/

Here is a link to the SR71 article http://www.zaphaudio.com/SR71.html
Here is a link to the ZA5 article http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZA5/

Read them both and that may help you make your decision.


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks again, ill look into that.


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Remember you are pouring your sweat into these so don't get to cheap.:bigsmile:

But any kit will probably sound better than what you've got.


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Im going for the ZA5 i think, but im also talking to Paul from one of the links above about one of his Hivi projects.


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

So, Ive narrowed it down to three designs and I would really appreciate some final input. Ive talked to a variety of people and the three that come up the most are as follows:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-855&AID=1482282&PID=2777698
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8307
http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=MBOW1_3-WAY.html

If someone can help me choose between these I will be very happy. It is worth baring in mind that these will almost certaintly be mounted directly on, or slightly off a wall in the corner. I know it isnt ideal, but I dont have a lot of room and therefore I dont have a lot of choice. So I would like to factor this in with the choice, for a speaker that can cope better with this.


----------



## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Not sure about the usher kit from PE. Haven't read much about it.

The SR71 is a great choice. Its what I was going to build for my next speaker initially.

I've always been curious about the MBOW1, and 3 ways in general. I think that one might blow your budget a bit tho as the drivers alone will run you close to $400, plus you need crossover parts, and they'll be floor standing speakers, not bookshelf speakers I believe. But I bet they sound awesome.


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Im a bit confused with the MBOW1, as the enclosure design makes it look like a 2 way design on the website.

May I ask why you didnt build the SR71 in the end?

EDIT: Seems like the MBOW1 is a 2 way, with a revised 3 way design.
EDIT 2: Apparently the MBOW1 is only $270 per pair
EDIT 3: I think the SR71's are definitely in the lead though


----------



## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Yeah the MBOW1 is a 2 way sitting on top of a bass module. How can it only be $270 per pair? The tweeters are $200 per matched pair, the woofers are $55 each and the mids are $30 each. So 30x2=60, 55x2=110. 200+110+60=370, plus crossover parts. And there are some pretty big caps so unless you go with mylars that'll definitely make a contribution to the cost.

I went with Zaphs Waveguide TMM. Which is sort of like a big brother to the SR71. I already have some pretty nice clear bookshelves. I wanted to up the ante and make something bigger, and more dynamic, and efficient. Plus the super low distortion and overall design of the Waveguide TMM intrigued me. Its a bit out of your price range tho as you can't get the drivers and crossover parts for under about $550 after you include shipping. I know, I just ordred all the parts within the last 30 days.


----------



## 1Michael (Nov 2, 2006)

I would go with Zaph's design...


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi,,

On this page:
http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=MB20.html

He said:


> That brings down the approximate cost by $100 - $170 a pair for the MB20 vs. $270 for the MBOW1.


I didnt check the maths behind it though.

Zaph seems to have a really good reputation, so I think I will just go with him for peace of mind.


----------



## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Yeah thats $270 for the MBOW1 2 way. So add another $110 for the pair of peerless woofers + shipping, and crossover parts. But yeah Zaph designs are great. I'm betting the Waveguide TMM will be fantasitc. Unfortunately I won't have it finished in time to rave about it before you pick a design and start. Plus its a bit over your budget.

The SR71 isn't tho and its available in a nice kit from Madisound. I think the ZDT3.5 is actually closer to $400 as well due to the fact that it uses the less expensive but excellent Dayton Reference series drivers.


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Is this what you are building?

http://www.parts-express.com//projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=zdt35

I also need a set of floor standing speakers, so I might be better of buying these and building that first. It comes to $411 which is alright actually.

The midrange looks a little bit lapse on these units though, are they sufficient?


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Also Zaphs design is 4Ohm, but the rest of my speakers are 8 Ohm. This seems like it would be a problem.


----------



## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

This is what I'm building.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/Waveguidetmm.html

Hrm, yeah I don't really do multi channel surround but having different impedence mains vs surrounds might be a problem. You'd have to ask somebody who knows.

The one you linked is the ZDT3.5 which is a great design and might actually be a bit less because it uses the Dayton Reference drivers. Not sure.


----------



## CasePro (Dec 23, 2009)

You can evaluate the Usher midrange in comparison to others on Zaph's site. What you will find is that it is phenomenal for the price, having similar capabilities and lack of distortion to Seas and Scan Speak drivers that are much more expensive. 

The Waveguide project should give you some great results. The advantage of the waveguide is that they are going to sound good outside of the sweet spot which is a big advantage for home theater.

I may have missed it. What are you doing for center channel?


----------



## Tony Nelson (Jan 6, 2010)

Those kits listed are pretty well recieved. Either would probably make you happy. You could also check out some of the kits at gr-research. Some are in your price range and could probably compare to the zaph kits at madisound.


----------



## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

CasePro said:


> You can evaluate the Usher midrange in comparison to others on Zaph's site. What you will find is that it is phenomenal for the price, having similar capabilities and lack of distortion to Seas and Scan Speak drivers that are much more expensive.
> 
> The Waveguide project should give you some great results. The advantage of the waveguide is that they are going to sound good outside of the sweet spot which is a big advantage for home theater.
> 
> I may have missed it. What are you doing for center channel?


Thanks, I'm pretty confident I'm going to love the things .

What am I going to use for my center channel or were you asking someone else? This is for a 2 channel stereo for music only. No center channel. I picked the WG based on low harmonic distortion and high dynamics, the big sweet spot is an added bonus. If I ever build anything better than these then they might find themselves hanging out near my Sony Bravia, in the mean time they're not even going to know what a TV looks like


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

After reading into the waveguides, they sound like very nice speakers. Im quite tempted to go with these myself actually. How much do you estimate it will be for 2 of those, around $450?


----------



## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Well woofers $75 so $300 for 4. Tweeters $40 so $80 so $380 plus shipping for the drivers. Then about another $100 for the crossover parts with shipping if you get em from Erseaudio.com $25 for two wave guides shipped. Tho I got 4, and I ended up screwing two up, so that worked out. Then ports, $5. Interior padding $20, binding posts $20, feet $10, lumber $60. Finish, $$$?

Total that up $560ish. Thats pretty close to bottom line tho, and includes a lot of the little incidentals that you might forget to include when initially figuring the cost of the job. $450-$500 for the primary parts, drivers+xo. Also I used the perfectionist crossover. I'm not sure how much more it is than the minimalist. I just went for it straight off the bat.

I guess later I'll whip up a BOM and post it around the web later on today or tomorrow, as it seems there might be some sort of waveguide resurgence going on this year.

John Marsh over at HTguide.com just finished a waveguide two way, which would be a bit cheaper without the second woofer, and it uses a *slightly* nicer woofer. But of course without the second 7" you loose some bass, some sensitivity and some dynamic range.


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Ok, I might be able to stretch to that. Currently, Ive got a bigger problem in that my 607 onkyo amp may not be able to handle any 4ohm speakers, and since all these kits are 4Ohm, im a bit buggered really.


----------



## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

Hrm, yeah good luck. Who knows, your current receiver may work with a 4 ohm load. But yeah if not you'd be looking at another couple of hundred, tough call.


----------



## Spadez (Oct 14, 2009)

Its got a setting for 4Ohm, its just not very good with 4Ohms apparently. 

I might be going back to one of your earlier suggestions though: http://www.audioheuristics.org/projects_gallery/ER18DXT/ER18DXT.htm 

They also won best in the show in this small speaker test, so they seem pretty good, and they have a high impedance. http://www.ncdiyaudio.claub.net/Meet-Fall09.html


----------



## evilskillit (Oct 7, 2008)

I'm sure you would be very happy with those. I have yet to hear of anyone failing to be impressed by them. I didn't realize that they were 8ohm, that helps a lot. Good luck in whatever you end up deciding to go with, build it, take some pictures and show us


----------



## 1Michael (Nov 2, 2006)

"im a bit buggered really"
How can you be a bit me?:rofl:
Your receiver would probably be fine at lower levels but if your going to rock, that could be a problem.
I still think you could be quite happy with the 8"MTM I posted before. 8 ohm, shorten the box to make it a bookshelf, make it sealed...$300 complete...:innocent:


----------

