# Anyone have experience good or bad with QSC amps?



## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Looking at either a QSC RMX 1850HD or a QSC RMX 1450 to power my one Mal-X sub in a 16cf box tuned to 15hz. 

Are these amps powerful enough and does anyone have experience with either of these amp or QSC in general. I have used crown but wanted to try something new. raying:

Is there a better option besides the China Knockoff "Behringer"? I have moral issues with the knockoff. 

Matt


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ive used both Crown and QSC and they are both workhorses, you would have no issue using either of them. I personally have a Samson amp and its worked flawlessly And I am pushing it hard as I have it bridged and its only supposed to have an 8ohm load when bridged but Ive been driving a 4ohm load for two years without a problem.
Lots of members here use Behringer amps and also like them.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I have heard good things about QSC but I don't own one. I use the Behringer EP2500 and it works great. It seems to be the choice of many for powering subs, check it out....http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-BEH-EP2500-LIST


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks!!! That was exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. I have never heard of a Samson Servo 4120 amp. Nice equipment list!!

Matt


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks tcarcio, I was thinking of the Behringer but I have moral issues with Behringer. I cannot bring myself to support a company that rips off another companies design. But that is just me. So, I was looking for an alternative to the Behringer. 

Matt


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Is a QSC PLX 1602 enough power for a mal-x. Those seem to be a little cheaper. Although I do like the class H design of the 1850HD. What does a man do. :bigsmile:

Matt


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The Samson 4120 is an older 4 channel amp (about 5 years) but has both line and XLR inputs and outputs I would look for the Samson SX series of amps if your looking to drive a subwoofer.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

All QSC in my Campus Center's Theater and Multipurpose room. Been running strong for close to 10 years now.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks guys for all the help!!!!!!!!!!! Is the PLX Series better than RMX series? 

Matt


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

mdrake said:


> Is the PLX Series better than RMX series?


You might want to post that question at the ProSoundWeb's Lab Lounge; I'm sure youll get no shortage on opinions. Just keep in mind that their requirements are more demanding than yours.

Regards,
Wayne


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks for the link!!! Did not even have to post as there were tons of threads available. Looks like the RMX is made in China for QSC and the caps they use are of lower quality. This make me think that maybe the Behringer is not a clone but the same amp as the RMX just re-badged. mmmm That is what I learned thus far... will continue researching.... :bigsmile:


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## kouack (Jan 17, 2007)

I own 3 QSC's MX3000A for sub duty, RMX1850HD front bass and a USA370 bridged center channel all work flawless and love them. I do have the same moral about Beri as well welcome on board :T


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## kouack (Jan 17, 2007)

Pictures guts of alto amphttp://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w232/gingerbiscuit69/DSC00060.jpg
and from top Tapco juice 2500, QSC RMX 2450 and Behringer EP2500 http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/PA290006.jpg



mdrake said:


> Thanks for the link!!! Did not even have to post as there were tons of threads available. Looks like the RMX is made in China for QSC and the caps they use are of lower quality. This make me think that maybe the Behringer is not a clone but the same amp as the RMX just re-badged. mmmm That is what I learned thus far... will continue researching.... :bigsmile:


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

From the pics it looks like they are all very similar!!!! The juice looks more robust than the others, "BIGGER CAPS".

Matt


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## kouack (Jan 17, 2007)

Tapco and alto look the same, but the Beri has a smaller Transformer, QSC on it own.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

How did you get these pics? This is really cool. 

Matt


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I don't know your budget but I just purchased the Mackie FR2500 here..http://cgi.ebay.com/MACKIE-FR-2500-2500w-2c-POWER-AMP-PRO-AMPLIFIER-FR2500_W0QQitemZ220380862133QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item220380862133&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50 I know it's a Bstock item but that doesn't bother me but you might have an issue with buying B. Also if you go to live.com and sign up and then search this amp it will bring you to the same page and you will get an extra 12% off. So it usually goes for $499 everywhere else and after the cash back it was $351.12 and free shipping too.:yay2:


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## kouack (Jan 17, 2007)

mdrake said:


> How did you get these pics? This is really cool.
> 
> Matt


Here a lots of guts amps enjoy the por n amps :bigsmile: http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/the-amplifier-internals-thread_topic23787.html


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

The Tapco Juice J-2500 is a great value for $400 and has more guts than either of those QSC amps. A friend bought 3 a year ago for his band and they have performed flawlessly. I hooked one up to my stacked double advents for a week and was sad to see it go even though my two Phase Linear 400s sound sweeter.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Are the Tapco Juice J-2500 and Mackie amps the same amp? The sure look to be. The look nice but the high pass breaks the deal for me. :hissyfit: Some reviews say they only go down to 25hz which is sad.

Matt


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## kouack (Jan 17, 2007)

mdrake said:


> Are the Tapco Juice J-2500 and Mackie amps the same amp? The sure look to be. The look nice but the high pass breaks the deal for me. :hissyfit: Some reviews say they only go down to 25hz which is sad.
> 
> Matt


Yes Tapco by Mackie, but according to manual page 9 para 9 subsonic filter can be desactived http://www.tapcoworld.com/products/juiceseries/index.html


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

mdrake said:


> Are the Tapco Juice J-2500 and Mackie amps the same amp? The sure look to be. The look nice but the high pass breaks the deal for me. :hissyfit: Some reviews say they only go down to 25hz which is sad.
> 
> Matt


The subsonic filter on the Tapco Juice J-2500 can be turned off. Page 9 of the manual.

http://www.tapcoworld.com/pdf/Juice_OM.pdf

Those reviewers are obviously confusing the rated frequency response of the Juice amps with their ability to produce low frequencies. They are power rated with both channels driven at 20Hz-20kHz. The rated frequency response is 25Hz-25kHz +0, -1 dB, which doesn't mean the amp cannot reproduce frequencies below 25Hz. It is likely to produce 10 Hz at -3 dB. Hence, there is more than enough power to drive LFE. The bass produced from my double Advents with the Tapco could shake the whole house.

From the owners manuals:


> The Mackie amplifiers can amplify signals below 20 Hz, but most speakers can’t reproduce frequencies that low.





> The Juice amplifiers can amplify signals below 20 Hz, but most speakers can’t reproduce frequencies that low.


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## aftermath (Mar 27, 2009)

Are the Tapco and Mackie amps made in China?


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

I believe both are assembled in the State of Washington of domestic and imported components. Although both say they are manufactured in China on the back.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Well, I went and picked up the Mackie at Guitar center today and I am returning it tomorrow. I lost a ton of low end resolution. The kick drum that was awesome on the Dayton was muddy on the Mackie. It is a shame because it seems like a nice amp. If I could get the resolution of the Dayton with the power of the Mackie I would be in amp heaven. :bigsmile: It seemed to have a lot of power but I could get it to clip on the Mal-x which surprises me. 

Matt


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## kouack (Jan 17, 2007)

mdrake said:


> Well, I went and picked up the Mackie at Guitar center today and I am returning it tomorrow. I lost a ton of low end resolution. The kick drum that was awesome on the Dayton was muddy on the Mackie. It is a shame because it seems like a nice amp. If I could get the resolution of the Dayton with the power of the Mackie I would be in amp heaven. :bigsmile: It seemed to have a lot of power but I could get it to clip on the Mal-x which surprises me.
> 
> Matt


Interesting what setup are you using, Eq, receiver, sub etc etc? because amp like the Dayton are usually tailored(low end boost) for sub.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Mine is on the truck for delivery today and though I am not useing it for a sub amp I would be interested on how it was set, low pass filter, bridged or not?


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Subsonic filter was off and it was in bridged mode into a 4 ohm load. Now, the only thing that changed in the room was the addition of the theater seats. Would the seats muddy up the bass or was it the amp? Now, I am wondering if it was the seats. mmm My experience is in car audio this high-end HT stuff is all new to me.  The amp is really NICE. It is heavy and looks to be built well. Not sure it puts out it's 2500 watts due to the clipping light kicking in on Mal-x. I really like the amp and I got it for 450.00 at Guitar Center. 

Receiver is an Onkyo 805 
Blu-Ray Sony PS3
Speakers are Magnepan MC1's front and MMGW's surround. 

Matt


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Did you try not bridging it to see if there is a difference. I read in the Mackie forum that there might of been some issues with the bridge mode and I don't know if it was fixed or if it was even a big problem. I will hook mine up later and check it out. I will let you know how it goes.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Well I hooked the Mackie up to my subs. I have two diy 12'' subs so I ran it in stereo mode. I really didn't hear much of a difference but it definitly is easier to clip than the Behringer. I didn't get everything set the way it should be as far as eq and all but for what it's worth it seemed to work fine. I am useing the Mackie for my mains so I will let you know how that works out.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

What it really boils down to is how big the caps are, the more energy reserves that the amp can store the more oomph the amp will have when driving heavy loads like subs.
We have an old H&H V-800 amp at our church from the late 80's that still works and we upgraded the caps to larger ones when it went in for service and it now has way more headroom than it did before.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks for hooking it to your subs tcarcio!!!!! Interesting the Mackie is easier to clip. 
Exactly tonyvdb! The reason I thought the Mackie would be better than the Beri is in the pictures the caps on the Mackie looked bigger. Strange that the Mackie is easier to clip. Maybe I will take the Mackie back and try the Beri. Even though I have moral issues, I might have no choice. 

Matt


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

The man upstairs was watching over me tonight!!!!!!!! I picked up a Crown XLS 802D for 448.00 at Guitar Center. It will be interesting to see how much of a difference there is between the Mackie and Crown.

Matt


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## kouack (Jan 17, 2007)

mdrake said:


> Thanks for hooking it to your subs tcarcio!!!!! Interesting the Mackie is easier to clip.
> Exactly tonyvdb! The reason I thought the Mackie would be better than the Beri is in the pictures the caps on the Mackie looked bigger. Strange that the Mackie is easier to clip. Maybe I will take the Mackie back and try the Beri. Even though I have moral issues, I might have no choice.
> 
> Matt


Have you check the main power to make sure you have 120 volts or close to? main power should be somewhere 110-122 volts, the circuit itself, are you using a single breaker for all your stuff? i remember all my amps were all plugs to the same circuit and i could push my QSC MX3000A into clipping easily with my my 2 SDX15 since i installed a dedicated 20A circuit for my friend :bigsmile: i haven't seen an other clip light unless i push it harder then usual but i will start to be worry for my house :hsd:


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I didn't even think about the power. It might be easier to clikp the Mackie due to the increase in draw. I am pretty much maxed out so the extra power the Mackie was calling for might be the reason it was easier to clip.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Well, it is funny how things work. I started this thread by asking about QSC amps... then bought a Mackie it sounded AWFUL and then purchased a Crown. Man, am I happy with the Crown. The wife sat down with me last night and wanted to hear the new amp. So, I fired it up for her. I was surprised by her response. She said "Awe now that is more like it!". Now we have our awesome sound back.  What a women! 

I have to say that you must be right on the power issue as the amp does seem to loose steam before it should. I will have to wire a direct line to a 20amp breaker. 

Thanks for all the great advice and feedback. I learned a lot and found out that the Mackie amp sounded awful to my ears and the Crown amp sounds incredible. My sound buddy of 19 years and I had it running the highs and it sounded better than some very nice home amps that we have heard through the years. He used to repair home amps and receivers and there were some very nice "expensive" amps that came through the shop.

Matt


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Are you bridging the Crown XLS 802 and running it into a 4 Ohm load? If so you will eventually experience overheating if you run this amp hard. It is not rated for 4 Ohm loads in bridged mode. The three year, no fault warranty does not cover damage due to running this amp into a 4 Ohm load in bridged mode. So, its really not a no fault warranty.

The only Crown amp I would recommend would be in the XTi series. The Parametric Equalization alone is worth the extra money.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Nice, wow, did not even look at that. I just assumed it would do a 4 ohm load but it seemed to handle it just fine. How would they know I was using it in 4 ohms if I blow something? This finding an amplifier for the Mal-x is more difficult than I thought it would be. :hissyfit:

Guess I can see what kind of deal Guitar Center will give me on a QSC RMX 2450 or 1850HD but I keep reading they are bottom end shy. ahhhh

Matt


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## kouack (Jan 17, 2007)

I would not sweat too much about not be rated for bridged 4 ohms, this question have been asked couple time over Crown forum and the answer from the staff was they cannot published it because the amp would not meet the CE rating but would be ok to do it anyway, worse come to worse the amp would go into thermal protection way before the amp destroys itself. If you really want to push your sub with such a limited budget i would look for a QSC MX3000A used, those are awesome amp and meet their spec:T according to Bink's test a guy over PSW forum if i remember correctlyhttp://www.binkster.net/AmpShootout_20-20k_results.xls, or a Crown CE4000 you should be able to score one for about 500-600 US $ on flea bay.


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## kouack (Jan 17, 2007)

mdrake said:


> Thanks for all the great advice and feedback. I learned a lot and found out that the Mackie amp sounded awful to my ears and the Crown amp sounds incredible. My sound buddy of 19 years and I had it running the highs and it sounded better than some very nice home amps that we have heard through the years. He used to repair home amps and receivers and there were some very nice "expensive" amps that came through the shop.
> 
> Matt


This is funny i was reading over the Cult of infinite bafled, and a guy is saying he did upgrade from Behring EP2500 to Mackie amp which sound way better and less harsh. So Beri must sound like beep hee hee.




mdrake said:


> Guess I can see what kind of deal Guitar Center will give me on a QSC RMX 2450 or 1850HD but I keep reading they are bottom end shy. ahhhh
> 
> Matt


Still better then many other amps out there what ever people will say, alot a pro gig are using the RMX line and beating the [email protected]#$ out of them every night, falling off truck ramp etc etc without problem and 6 years warranty. Remember you are extremely limited in budget, 500$ is not getting you the moon. If you really want an amp that can shake your house look at something used or get ready to print some cash to get an amp like QSC RMX 4050HD or 5050 in the low ish 1500$ those are really good on sub duty.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

That is why I put in the disclaimer "to my ears". :bigsmile: To someone else the Mackie might sound like an angle singing. 

Thanks guys for all the help on the amp below is a qoute form the Crown fourm staff. I really like the way the 802 sounds but the power of the used 4000 might be better. mmmmmmm what to do?

_A couple of these to remember: The “Nominal Impedance” listed on a spec sheet is not the minimum impedance for a speaker, as Impedance is a function of Frequency. I know of some speakers, Nominally rated at 8-ohms, that are actually around 6-6.5 ohms in the lower band of frequencies they cover. Put four of these speakers together and you would have a nominal 2-ohm load but at a certain frequency range they would be ~ 1.5 to 1.6 ohms. Add to this that heating of a voice coil from use, over powering and clipping can also cause a speaker’s impedance to lower and you could get even close to a 1-ohm load and 1-ohm is very close to a short. This is why most pros will not load their amps below 4-ohms.
But to make a long story short…yes the XLS Dseries amplifiers will operate fine at 2-ohms dual channel/4-ohms Bridge-Mono. There is simply not a published spec for them due to compliance issues. The 802D could possible exceed 15 amps under certain 2-ohm "Nominal" loads and due to US regulatory compliance reasons we could not officially publish a 2-ohm spec for it. To keep the entire XLs line specifications uniformed it was decided to drop the 2-ohm spec on the 202, 402 and 602 from the sheet as well._

Now this puts us full circle back to the power issue.  If this amp does indeed draw over 15amps then I will need a dedicated circuit. Guess I will be running more wire in my HT room. Do you guys think I should drop a 220 and really have some fun? JUST KIDDING.... I think a 20amp should do the trick right?

Matt


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## aftermath (Mar 27, 2009)

Wow, cool spread sheet!!!!!!


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Just realized I forgot to thank you for posting that excel sheet, my bad. THANKS!!!!!

Matt


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

On to amp number 3. I just picked up a XTI 2000 and I am comparing to the XLS 802. Actually I am waiting for the software to install.  A Crown amp shootout this should be fun. 

Matt


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I think you will find the xti more to your likeing than the 802. With more options like the built in eq it is easier to intergrate it to just about any system. I don't own one myself but I have read alot of good things on the crown forum and the people that I have talked to seem to really like them. Not that the 802 is a slouch but the xti is definitly an upgrade. I have a 402 and it sounds great and has plenty of headroom and never breaks a sweat. By the way I got the Mackie up and runnimg for my mains and I love it. It has a great crisp and detailed sound with my big old b52's and it will drive me right out of the room if I am not carefull.:bigsmile: Good luck with the shootout, can't wait to hear what you think.:yes:


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## Mvauhn (Nov 26, 2008)

How loud are the fans on the xls 802?


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

They are pretty loud and there is two of them. They run full blast all the time. I really did not notice them when watching a a movie but that might be due to the fact that they are in the equipment rack. I will get my spl meter out this evening and measure them. It would be interesting to find out if they are louder than the Beri's fans. 

Matt


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## Mvauhn (Nov 26, 2008)

Thanks. I'm looking for an amp for my sealed Mal-X and I'd prefer to find an alternative to the EP 2500.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Hey that sounds like me. :bigsmile: I can tell you the XLS is an AWESOME amp! I have had 4 people who I trust listen to it and everyone of them was very impressed. 

Matt


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Ok, I took an SPL measurement on the XLS fans last night using my digital RS meter on C weighting. The result was 61db at 1 foot away from the fans. The amp was mounted in the rack with the rear of the amp in the closet. I really thought it would be louder than this. 

Matt


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## Mvauhn (Nov 26, 2008)

Thank you very much. I think I'm going to go to my local Guitar Center and check it out.


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## Navydoc (Feb 8, 2009)

I think I am driving myself crazy looking for an amp to drive the sealed MAL-X (24" cube). It seems to be a maze of rabbit holes, with half the internet saying amp X is great with the other half saying amp X is to be avoided at all costs.

I am leaning towards the Crowns, but there are threads indicating the XTI-1000 do not put out a lot of power at 20 Hz, 4 ohm. I prefer the cost of the XLS series, but fan noise is a concern. Decisions, decisions, decisions!!! Look forward to hearing Matt's take on the head-to-head.


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## kouack (Jan 17, 2007)

Just google and do the fan mod on the XLS will keep the noise down, Behringer are not bad amp, for me and many other people morally do not like them.Tapco Juice 2500, Alto not sure of the model probably 2500 as well aren't bad and cheap $ , over Cult of IB some are using Makie amp (FR2500) that is the same as Tapco and alto. 

Crest audio CC serie and CS serie from Peavey are not mention too often but are really good quality amps, It all about how much are you willing to spend. An other alternative would be to get a really good used amp something like QSC MX3000A or JBL MPX1200 which is was made by QSC and happen to be a EX4000(a MX3000A with some minor extra features) on flea beay they go for 500-700$ or a Crown CE4000 for about the same price that were made for sub duty:T.

Yes Crown XTI was not that good in the race to 1 hz as per the test over AVS, probably because of it switching power supply, being a cheap entry level amp with all the bells and whistles (DSP)they have to cut somewhere i guess:whistling:, also in Sound reinforcement they just do not care about reproducing 10 hz sound and usually filter everything below the 30-40 hz ish mark. The XTI serie does sound really good in full range application.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Hey, someone else in my same boat.Trying to find an amp to power the sub. Here is my take of the three amps. Keep in mind that this hobby is very subjective. :devil: 

Well, over the weekend we ran both the XLS 802D and the XIT 2000 head to head using both blind testing and listening tests. I had two of my buddies, one who has in own dedicated theater room and the other who is an audio nut. They were both unanimous with the XLS. 

The XLS had the best bottom end hands down. The sound was tight and solid and just seemed to have complete control over the woofer. When the amp said stop the woofer just stopped. It also did what us old school car audio guys call “dropping bottom”. In other words, there seemed to be very little if any roll off at the bottom end, and when running REW it seemed to be just about flat to 15hz! 

The XIT on the other hand has the COOL DSP but the bottom end was lacking in both output and definition. My wife actually said it best when she said, "the black one just has more oomph.:bigsmile: 
I really noticed the difference on kick drums and explosions. In order for it to get low I had to add a shelf filter at 20hz “low as the DSP could go” of 12db per octave. The XTI had bass it was lacking and seem to be just one big boom rather than individual defining booms. I hooked it up to my Maggies just to get a sense of how much power and what kind of sound the XIT had. I was VERY unimpressed. The sound was thin and even the Onkyo seemed to have as much or maybe even more power than the XTI. 

Earlier in the week I had the Mackie and it was ok. It was better than the XTI, but to my ears it didn’t come close to the power or sound quality of the XLS.

So the XLS is my favorite and I will be changing the fans out soon. 

Matt


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## Navydoc (Feb 8, 2009)

Sounds like a clear winner.


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## kouack (Jan 17, 2007)

I'm Glad you find your amp Matt, the mod is easy on the XLS, i own a 402B and changed the fans but got the wrong model so still as noisy:duh: , just google it i think i saw the mod at AVS not sure. 

I find this really funny because someone was arguing with me saying All amp will sound the same, and i was telling him i could hear a small difference between my Bryston and Yamaha, the Yamaha being a tad brighter in hi freq(sorry for my lack of audiophile vocabulary).


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