# Theater and Music Performance Sub woofer



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Since I will be starting out my new surround sound system with two new subs (with a possibility of two more down the road, assume '2' for now), would twin 8" be better for me than twin 10"? Will an 8" sub blend (sound? work?) better with my Infinity primus speaker selection (P362, PC350, P162)? This system will add two more P162 speakers for 7.2 at a later date.
http://www.infinitysystems.com/home...?SerId=PRI&Language=ENG&Region=USA&Country=US


I should mention...

Though it will be used primarily for home theater I do not want theater performance to compromise musical performance, if possible.


Im building this system for a medium-sized room. 

Form factor is a biggie, so much so that it ruled out many fine subs in my price bracket. Part of this expectation is because this system will never see less than two subs operational.

Entire system will be installed for the best 'theatrical' sound effect. Sub's best placement will be verified, but most likely front wall center, rear wall center. Every effort will be made for perfect installation. 

Audio receiver is a new Marantz 7002
http://us.marantz.com/Products/2205.asp

Music tastes include rock. Guess I better include the gf, country and hip-hop

So the sub in question...

10" http://www.energy-speakers.com/na-en/products/esw-c10-overview/
8" http://www.energy-speakers.com/na-en/products/esw-c8-overview/ 


I can get a good deal on either, 8" would run me even less. So money is not an issue here at all. However, this IS the sub I will buy and I can afford either the 8" or 10". My only question is which :dontknow:


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The 10's would most defiantly be better for all around use. The 8" subs wont reach as low and wont output as much SPL.


----------



## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

I completely agree with Tony :T


Is there any way you can get  this  instead??? :huh:


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I would go with SVS Subwoofers instead of Energy. The PB-10NSD is simply in another league and costs about the same amount of money. http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm
Here is a Review for the previous version of the PB-10:http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/svs-pb10-subwoofer-10-2004.html

As to Infinity Speakers, I have great respect for them. I hope that you have had a chance to Audition them.
If there is a PSB or Paradigm Dealer in your Area, I would highly recommend giving them a listen as well.

With PSB, you can find them Online and discounted. Their Image Series was just revised and the earlier version is available with a serious discount and are still fantastic. An example being the Image T45 (749 MSRP) is now available for 479 from DMC-Electronics.com and Saturday Audio. The Matching C60 Center Channel costs 299 (449 MSRP) and for Surrounds the Image B25 is a great Speaker and is available for 319 (479 MSRP)

I would actually go with Dual Floorstanders for Front and Surround. Something like dual T45's or the larger T55 and T65 in Front with T45's for Surrounds. Coupled with dual PB10-NSD Subwoofers and you would have an amazing Speaker Setup.

Here is a Review for the T45:http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/psb_image_t45.htm
Here is a Review for the B25:http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1204psb/
Here is a Review for the Image 5.1 Package:http://hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/87/
And another Image HT Review:http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/psb_t65_c60_s50_subsonic_6i.htm

Fellow Forum Moderator Ares is using PSB Image Series and quite pleased with them. I have also helped literally dozens of Friends/Family build HT's around these Speakers. They sound so much better than what their prices reflect. At MSRP, they are a tremendous value. At up to 40% off, they are a steal.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

salvasol said:


> Is there any way you can get  this  instead??? :huh:


Cool, thanks for helping me guys. And no I cant swing that one, but I can get a Velodyne vdr10 for the same price as the energy 10". Which would you guys choose? Velodyne vdr10 or Energy ESW-C10?

Velodyne here:

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/549189032?i_c=DOD_549189032_122909


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I will go ahead and bring it up one more time, the SVS PB10 is a far superior Subwoofer than any of the Subwoofers you are considering. I truly implore you to search here and even a Google Search.

It terms of Low Frequency Extension and SPL's and Low Frequencies, the PB10 is an amazing value. In addition, Hsu Research and eD both make far better Subwoofers for the money.

I understand that you might not be familiar with these Companies as they are ID (Internet Direct). However, they have been tested by all of the major A/V Magazines and Websites and the acclaim is universal.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Jungle Jack know what he speaks of: you'd be better off with two of his (recommended) subs vs four of the ones you're considering.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Im paying $230 each shipped for a new from a factory authorized dealer, thats kinda in my budget.


----------



## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

That's a good price.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Im well aware of the leaders, especially svs, but I simply cant afford them (even one)


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I completely understand the allure of having Dual Subwoofers. You could come within 50 Dollars by going with 1 PB10. Moreover, SVS has B-Stock PB-12NSD's for 529 which is 70 Dollars off.
Also, HSU has the VTF-2 MKIII for 509 which is 50 Dollars off. This is a 12" Subwoofer as well.

I suppose it comes down to do you want 2 Subwoofers that cannot offer any meaningful output at even 30 Hz (Energy 10" only rated down to 32 Hz) or 1 true Subwoofer. That is a Subwoofer that will go down to 20 Hz and play at well over 90db's at that Frequency Range?
Here is a Review of the PB12:http://svsound.com/Reviews/2006-12_S&V_Review_SBS-01-PB12.pdf
Here is a Review of the VTF-2:http://hsuresearch.com/products/homeTheaterMagHb1ReviewMar2007.pdf

While slightly more expensive, going with a single ultra high quality Subwoofer will yield superior performance.
While you might get more loudness in the 80-40 Hz Region with Dual Energy's, when it goes lower where you are talking about room shaking bass the SVS or Hsu will give it to you in spades.

In truth, very few people have experienced true Full Range Reproduction. Before Hsu, SVS, et al, true Subwoofers were only available to DIY'ers and those with very large budgets. However, once you have experienced true 20 Hz reproduction, it is an epiphany.

Energy offers great value, but simply are not in the same league as the Subwoofers I am recommending. When an Authorized Dealer can discount a Product to that amount, it really does say something as well. And another reason why they can offer you to them Shipped for that amount is that the 10" Energy only weighs 28 Pounds. The PB10 weighs 60 Pounds.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Ya know, Jack, you are making wayyyy too much sense. Ill suck it up and spend $500 on a single, is shipping going to push me way over that? Can you send me a link to what you recommend based on my budget? I found the VFT2 MkIII but it says its only a 10". 
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2.html I did NOT find that HSU price you mentioned, though I easily found the bstock svs!

Going all the way to 20hz sounds extremely appealing to me. Form factor is a concern, whats the smallest and best deal going? The svs seems massive! Do I have to have a huge box to get that low? Ill happily sacrifice power if it means a smaller form factor.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

TypeA said:


> Ya know, Jack, you are making wayyyy too much sense. Ill suck it up and spend $500 on a single, is shipping going to push me way over that? Can you send me a link to what you recommend based on my budget? I found the VFT2 MkIII but it says its only a 10".
> http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2.html I did NOT find that HSU price you mentioned, though I easily found the bstock svs!
> 
> Going all the way to 20hz sounds extremely appealing to me. Form factor is a concern, whats the smallest and best deal going? The svs seems massive! Do I have to have a huge box to get that low? Ill happily sacrifice power if it means a smaller form factor.


Hello,
The current MKIII VTF-2 employs a 12" Woofer:http://hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk3.html Previous VTF-2's used a 10" Woofer.
The 509 Price is listed right on the Main Page of the Website. As the Page explains, the MKIII is almost identical to the earlier VTF-3 but with a slightly less powerful Amplifier. Believe me when I tell you that you will not be disappointed going with any of the Subwoofers I have listed.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> The current MKIII VTF-2 employs a 12" Woofer:http://hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk3.html Previous VTF-2's used a 10" Woofer.
> The 509 Price is listed right on the Main Page of the Website. As the Page explains, the MKIII is almost identical to the earlier VTF-3 but with a slightly less powerful Amplifier. Believe me when I tell you that you will not be disappointed going with any of the Subwoofers I have listed.
> Cheers,
> JJ


HSU it is! Cheaper and down-firing so I can at least turn it sideways if that 23" depth gets to me. Thanks for being so persistent Jack, and sorry for being such a bone-head.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
My friend. You were not being bone headed. Rather, you had a plan of action that made sense. Having Dual Subwoofers really can help with Room Acoustics and in truth should additional funds become available adding another Hsu would be astonishing.

However, it is far better to have one Subwoofer capable of Full Range Reproduction than Dual Sub's that are not capable of Full Range. What is even better is your Marantz has Audyssey's MultEQ which really works magic with Subwoofers.

You really are making the right call. Don't be afraid to try to get Hsu to offer reduced Shipping. With it already being On Sale, it might not work. But, is certainly worth a try. I love the Hsu VTF-2 MKIII as it really is a VTF-3. We are talking about a Subwoofer that is fully competitive with Subwoofers costing in the thousands. You are going to be astonished.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

That Hsu uses a 2.5A fuse along with BASH amp design, which is more efficient than a typical amp, while the Energy has a 1.6A fuse: you'll likely have much more power for both music AND transient peaks during movies.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

ironglen, I very much see the light! Good info.


I will ponder for years how and why I would consider ANYTHING other than the VTF-2 MK3 (save maybe the svs line). I cant express how significant this thread has been for me. While I have known for a long time the error of my speaker selection ways, 2010 was the year I was reborn! (acoustically speaking that is) Melodramatic? Maybe a little over the top? Well, just to put it into perspective for all those that have taken the time and had the patience to help me out in this thread, a picture of my current home theater 5.0 audio system:

Fronts:











Rears:











Thats right Im the proud owner of Bose 901s, vcs10, and 301s! So.......anyone think an Infinity Primus and HSU sub system will be an improvement over my EXISTING sound system? :rofl:

I will have to replace the end table seen in the second pic with this new hsu, but somehow NOW (and even before Ive heard the difference) even that seems like a really small price to pay for clean, faithful, and full range audio.

jack,
I greatly appreciate your patience and kind words. You have been a huge benefit in my pursuit and (repeatedly lol) took the time to explain things that made me THINK beyond my 'form factor and perceived-value' frame of mind. For that, I thank you, and thank all others that helped too. :hail:


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Type A, it is truly what I am here for. I did see that you had really nice, quality Speakers and felt compelled to to point out the differences between quasi Subwoofers and true Subwoofers.

Dr. Hsu , founder of Hsu Research, is a MIT Educated Acoustic Ninja. Hsu Research really was out in front of many other excellent ID Subwoofer Companies. I really look forward to reading your impressions once the HT is all together.

And indeed, you are making a quantum leap over your prior Speaker Array.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Ordered the Infinity Primus 5.0 package from crutchfield this morning, thought Id share my final prices...

P362 (2) 177.50 each shipped
PC350 (1) 199.99 each shipped
P162 (2) $85.00 each shipped

$724.99 for all five, Im very pleased with that price! Ill call HSU in a couple hours when they open and get my Rosenut VTF-2 MK 3. Thought I might ask if they could extend that $40 off sale on the Satin black and give it to me on the Rosenut. We'll see.

Cant wait, this system is gonna be sweet!


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Nice touch on the Rosenut Finish. I was going to point out how much more I liked it, but it costs 140 Dollars more and bit my Tongue. That finish really makes it look like a piece of Furniture. Major props. And congrats on the Infinity Speakers.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

JungleJack said:


> Hello,
> Nice touch on the Rosenut Finish. I was going to point out how much more I liked it, but it costs 140 Dollars more and bit my Tongue. That finish really makes it look like a piece of Furniture. Major props. And congrats on the Infinity Speakers.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Yes, the rosenut finish was my consolation and justification for going with a much larger sub than I had hoped ('thats one hel- of an end table you got there'  ). Discount of $32.45, total $675.55, will be here middle of next week :jump:


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Congratulations. You truly have yourself an excellent HT and a stratospheric upgrade over your former Speakers. The VTF-2 looks amazing in Wood Veneer.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

Hi TypeA. I believe I was one of the posters on another site that recommended the Infinity Primus speakers. They should sound very good. Jungle Jack's recommendation of the Hsu research sub is something I totally agree with. I think you will not only be pleasantly surprised but you will be "blown away". I'm looking forward to hearing you comments when you get everything set up in your room and working.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks guys, it nice to know I made the right choice. Starting install prep...living room system hasnt sold yet, Do'h, its still coming down this weekend and being stuffed in a closet. All new gear will be here by next wensday. 

Power. This place is so small that advanced planning must be done! I have this unoccupied outlet on the front wall. Can I bundle a heavy duty extension cord into my mesh wrap and run this to the sub for power (this cord will be about the same gauge as the sub power cord I would imagine...but will give me an extra 10')? In that wrap would also be an acoustic research mono sub interconnect 35' I believe, acoustic research speaker wire for the surround left channel, 75' hdmi and 75' component by monoprice. Is running power cords bundled with speaker wire or analog connect cables bad juju?










Also, see this sub is going right where this table is. Does the end of that wooden chest need any acoustic treatment?










Finally, pic three...should i push the couch forward as much as possible to give the most gap between the chest and couch? Or will it make a diff if that gap is almost all closed off? Would the size of that gap even affect sub performance? I have some play with this gap but not much.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> What is even better is your Marantz has Audyssey's MultEQ which really works magic with Subwoofers.


Can you elaborate? What makes you say that?

I know I will be running it again after all speakers are broke-in. HSU manual had nothing on break-in times for this sub btw, pete at hsu said a couple hours. Infinities, I assume, will take far longer than that (havent read that manual yet).HSU manual was also completely devoid of baseline setting on the sub for audyssey calibration. Pete said 1/4 on the volume. I was shocked! How could you ever get the full potential, from a sub of this magnitude, with just 1/4 volume MAX? He explained its high-gain, uh ok. Otherwise crossover to out and phase to 0 is all he mentioned. I read up on the selectable ports and plugs in this sub...Ill have to experiment with that and see what I like, pretty cool feature tho.

Break in
I plan on looping a cd to an old receiver to break-in the speakers while no one is home. To be honest, I dont want to listen to the system much until its broke in, recalibrated with audyssey, and sounding the best it can from the beginning trials. That may sound funny, but this is my first ever system built solely on sound accuracy and power...all other 'systems' (and Im using that term loosely) have been based on cosmetics or name recognition (Bose how I love thee, let me count the ways). How many days do you recommend I do break-in (at 8 hours a day) to ensure total break-in? I ask because I want this system complete, calibrated and done within the next week or two. If I have to have an old receiver hooked up to just get sound to them while im gone, thats what ill do in the interest of time. I never broke in speakers so this is a real learning experience for me.:jiggy: 



Appreciate all the help.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Audyssey MultEQ, unlike many other Room EQ Systems, works on the LFE or Subwoofer Channel all the way to 20 Hz. Pioneer's MCACC for instance stops at 60 Hz. In addition Audyssey FIR Filters really do a fantastic job of getting the best out of your Subwoofer as these Filters work in the Time and Phase Domains.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Some variables like placement are really difficult to predict: sometimes you just have to experiment.

Don't run your ac power alongside the rest as you'll be more likely to induce 60hz hum- bad stuff. The rest can likely be run alongside one another. Running an extension cord for a permanent install is not recommended, perhaps we can come up with a better solution. Is there no ac power in that area of the room, or are you simply wanting to have all components on a single circuit? If you've got ac power, try it before running an extension cord as you may not get the dreaded 60hz hum anyway.

Looks like a mighty fine system you're putting together.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks for the info jack.

glen,

The problem is theres only one ac outlet that is not forward in the room, and that outlet is very busy supplying power to a projector, table lamp, cell phone charger, a remote control charger, table fan, two pedestal lights and an 8" lcd picture frame. The remaining three ac outlets are clearly visible while seated in the primary viewing area and in the interest of aesthetics Id like to avoid power cords coming from those forward outlets. I will use these other outlets if it comes to that (and it probably will), but wanted to ask what my options were for getting ac power to this sub. Im:scratch: trying to figure out how to avoid running its power cord alongside speaker wire that runs down the baseboards on both sides of the room. Thanks for the input. Any other thoughts or input on this is appreciated.


----------



## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

You might look to see if you have an outlet on the opposite side of that wall(a wall in the sub's vicinity), in which case you might be able to have a box installed on the sub side. Otherwise you're likely looking at having to run an outlet, which can be a real pain, or maybe not-depends on the existing construction. Long term extension cord use is generally not recommended.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Ok thanks for the help.


----------



## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

ironglen said:


> You might look to see if you have an outlet on the opposite side of that wall(a wall in the sub's vicinity), in which case you might be able to have a box installed on the sub side. Otherwise you're likely looking at having to run an outlet, which can be a real pain, or maybe not-depends on the existing construction...


+1 :T

I was :rubeyes: when I read what you have connected in that outlet.... I was worried that I have a lot of equipment in the same circuit, but I think you won :bigsmile:


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Yeah its a small place and getting power will be tough, guess Ill have to experiment.

On another subject, my blu ray player (Panasonic DMP-BD55) supports these:

Playable discs (with some additional restrictions): BD-Video, BD-ROM, BD-RE, BD-R, DVD-RAM, DVD-R/RW/RW DL, DVD+R/RW/RW CL, CD-Audio, CD-R/RW

Is "cd audio" different from sacd?
What is the best way to feed my new sound system high bit rate audio? 
Do I have to buy a sacd player to get high bit rate?
Are there music blu rays?

Receiver Marantz sr7002 has analog 7 channel direct and hdmi if that helps


----------



## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

SACD is super audio or something, I don't have it. They are different disks and typically require a higher end player. Anything with >128kbps is pretty good, 196 is cd quality so most people supposedly won't hear a difference better than that. I think most of the time noise you hear is from the recording itself rather than the bit rate.

Edit: refer below to the post by Outlaw for the correct info- thanks Outlaw!


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Cool, thanks for that. 901 301 vcs10 and hk avr 7000 package sold today! $500. I could have got more if I was willing to ship, but wayyyy too lazy for that. Perfect timing, four of six new speakers arrive monday  Think Ill order four additional 162's, two to complete 7.1 in the living room and two more for zone 2 in the bedroom. Zone two will be two channel for tv movies and such...Im paying $80 a piece for the 162's shipped. Does anyone have a better idea in the $160 (pair) shipped price range for my stereo pair (must be bookshelf)? I order monday.


----------



## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

ironglen said:


> SACD is super audio or something, I don't have it. They are different disks and typically require a higher end player. Anything with >128kbps is pretty good, 196 is cd quality so most people supposedly won't hear a difference better than that. I think most of the time noise you hear is from the recording itself rather than the bit rate.


196kbps is not CD quality 320kbps is still not CD quality. That's why it's called lossy compression. The quality loss in files encoded at 128kbps is easy to hear on any decent system. 

On my system everyone who has listened can easily hear the degradation inherent in 196kbps files. With 320kbps files the differences are not as easy to hear. However, the degradation is there. 

SACD is Super Audio CD. They sound better than standard Red Book CD's. 

Red Book is the book where the standard for CD's was set by Phillips and Sony.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Good info. But still, what is the best quality of music I can feed my new system (besides vinyl). Sacd only?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
An interesting corollary to SACD is that now that all of the Major Label SACD's Releases are no longer in Print, the prices for some SACD's is utterly absurd. Beck: Sea Change sells for over 150 Dollars for instance on Ebay and Amazon. And there are many others like this.

In all truth, when my Paradigm Subwoofer died last Summer and I found a Martin Logan Subwoofer for an amazing price locally, I sold off most of my collection to finance the Subwoofer as it was going to sell soon.

While I could have afforded it otherwise, I never heard a quantum leap over CD's with SACD. Even when using very good equipment. And has been pointed out, many Blind Tests showed that most could not differentiate between CD and SACD. 

Blu Ray Music Discs have for potential for better SQ as it has so much more storage than SACD. Sometimes, I lament selling off most of my SACD's, but the truth is I hardly ever even played them.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks for the clarification jack.




TypeA said:


> 901 301 vcs10 and hk avr 7000 package sold today! $500. Think Ill order four additional 162's, two to complete 7.1 in the living room and two more for zone 2 in the bedroom.


Change of plans, ordered a second rosenut HSU VTF-2 MK 3 instead. Ill order the bedroom pair and additional pair for the living room when the acoustimass system sells. Second sub will be here friday, $662.57 shipped


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

TypeA said:


> Thanks for the clarification jack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hello,
Wow. You are going to have some outstanding Bass in your HT. If you have not opened the Marantz you purchased, you might want to consider the TX-NR1007 as it has dual Subwoofer Outputs with Individual Audyssey Calibration for both.

Regardless, you really have put together an outstanding HT that will provide you with years and years of enjoyment.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Wish I could, but thats just not in the budget right now. Got an outstanding deal on the Marantz at $600 (and has dual hdmi out, which I really wanted). If I were to drop $1000 on a receiver Id want 1.4 support to ensure Im future-proof. Thanks for the input tho, youve been a great help.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The Marantz is an excellent AVR. It was only after your Posting of adding another VTF-2 did it even enter my thoughts as having individual Calibration for 2 Subwoofers is a beautiful thing. The 1007 can be found for around 700 Dollars at Accessories4less and also offers Dual HDMI Outputs.

Regardless, you got an outstanding deal on the 7002 and it will serve ably as your AVR. Having 2 VTF-2's is going to give you outstanding Bass. I cannot wait to read your findings once it is all in place.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> The Marantz is an excellent AVR. It was only after your Posting of adding another VTF-2 did it even enter my thoughts as having individual Calibration for 2 Subwoofers is a beautiful thing. The 1007 can be found for around 700 Dollars at Accessories4less and also offers Dual HDMI Outputs.
> 
> Regardless, you got an outstanding deal on the 7002 and it will serve ably as your AVR. Having 2 VTF-2's is going to give you outstanding Bass. I cannot wait to read your findings once it is all in place.
> ...



Hmmmm, for that price Im now seriously considering it. Amazon has given me a return authorization of 30 days starting today for my 7002, full $600 refund. This is alot more of a receiver for 771.51 shipped, and everyone still recommends a factory reconditioned? Is this the best price going?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The price got moved as it was briefly 699 for the 1007 there. I see now it is 749. It might be worth a Call to see if they will move off that price.

The 1007 does offer THX Ultra2 Plus Certification, Internet Radio/Firmware Updates, weighs 18 Pounds more than the 7002, Audyssey MultEQ XT as opposed to MultEQ and more.

As to Refurbished Units, all I can say is I went ahead and put my Money where my Mouth is and picked up a 3007 around 2 Weeks ago. You do lose 1 Year of Warranty with B-Stock Units, but usually find it at an unbeatable price. I would also look at Newegg to see if they have any 1007's New and Open Box. Newegg only sells A-Stock.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

I really need to suck it up and spend the extra for this receiver. One thing I SORELY miss now with the new Marantz is dynamic volume! That feature simply doesnt exist in any of the $600-700 dual hdmi outs receivers nowadays. Onkyo has dynamic volume, plus lots more as you mentioned. Only thing I was not fond of in my research was that Onkyos' are notorious for running hot  Plus to get these specs Ill also, as you mentioned, have to forego a three year warranty 'brand new' status. Ah well, the HK7000 was a factory refurb, so its kinda fitting its replacement will most likely be also lol.

Marantz goes back tomor and Ill be breaking in $2100 worth of speakers with a $150 on-hand Sony receiver this weekend. :yay2:

Center and surrounds installed today, hard part is done :clap: Still waiting on a tower and both subs, tues wens friday deliveries.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Hate to say this, but only the 3007 and 5007 have Dolby Volume. The 1007 does have Audyssey Dynamic Volume, Dynamic EQ, THX Loudness, etc.
Also, my 3007 runs noticeably cooler than my TX-SR875 it replaced. Do note that I am using outboard Amplification for all Channels.

Regardless, I do think it will be a better all around AVR. I hope Dolby Volume does not dissuade you from getting the 1007. It really should not as the above Technologies are quite similar and you will have Dual Subwoofer Calibration. That was the Feature that most made me think of the 1007.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks for the heads up. Audyssey volume is fine, anything that keeps me from lunging for the remote during commercials or especially dynamic movies works for me. Ill have to wait for my refund on the Marantz before I can get the 1007, hopefully that $700-800 price is plenty available in a week or two. Thanks again for mentioning it, audyssey features alone make the extra couple hundred a worth-wild upgrade over the marantz.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

1st shoe, I mean HSU, on...next one arrives friday


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

The first Hsu drops... You are going to have an exponentially better HT than you had prior. I really think your Friends and Family are going to be blown away. You have now built the Antibose HT.

Also, I really think you will enjoy the 1007. I love the Internet Radio Feature. And that is mere icing on the proverbial cake as having Independent Calibration of your Subwoofers really is going to be awesome.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Ordered a reconditioned Onkyo 3007 this morning...$1,016.49 shipped! Will be here tomorrow


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Welcome to the 3007 Armada. I really like mine and I hope yours brings you as much enjoyment. You are never going to leave your House once your HT is setup.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

JungleJack said:


> Hello,
> Welcome to the 3007 Armada. I really like mine and I hope yours brings you as much enjoyment. You are never going to leave your House once your HT is setup.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Lol I agree, auditions forever, begin! And thanks for nudging me towards a reconditioned from ac4l over the open box from newegg I was considering. Guy I spoke with at ac4l was awesome, fast talker but simply awesome and a pleasure to deal with. Knew his stuff about the newegg open box and said 949 was the best possible price they could do for this receiver (cant say as I blame them, thats a good deal). He was sympathetic I was paying tax ($66.50) on this internet purchase and he did hook me up with free shipping (saved me $23.41). Total bottom line price for this Infinity HSU and Onkyo 5.2 build was $3,000. More than I had wanted to spend, by a big margin. I figure Ive lived with a Bose 901 301 VCS10 5.0 system for my 'surround sound' for 12 long years and Ive already paid my dues in the sub-standard audio department, doing it right the second time around was easier with that kind of background :blink:


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

TypeA said:


> Lol I agree, auditions forever, begin! And thanks for nudging me towards a reconditioned from ac4l over the open box from newegg I was considering. Guy I spoke with at ac4l was awesome, fast talker but simply awesome and a pleasure to deal with. Knew his stuff about the newegg open box and said 949 was the best possible price they could do for this receiver (cant say as I blame them, thats a good deal). He was sympathetic I was paying tax ($66.50) on this internet purchase and he did hook me up with free shipping (saved me $23.41). Total bottom line price for this Infinity HSU and Onkyo 5.2 build was $3,000. More than I had wanted to spend, by a big margin. I figure Ive lived with a Bose 901 301 VCS10 5.0 system for my 'surround sound' for 12 long years and Ive already paid my dues in the sub-standard audio department, doing it right the second time around was easier with that kind of background :blink:


Hello,
You must be a fellow Floridian if you have to pay Tax. I bet you spoke to Mark. He really is a great guy and is quite knowledgeable. 

This HT you built is amazing. I still cannot believe you ordered a 2nd VTF-2. That is simply sick. Again, I cannot wait to read your findings once it is all setup. I would highly recommend grabbing a Radio Shack SPL Meter if you do not have one. 

When I ran Audyssey, the Channels were below 75 db's and I needed to adjust it. It might have been due to the type of Speakers I use. Electrostats measure strangely sometimes. Also, I prefer to set the Subwoofer to 80 db's which is a fairly common thing.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Got the initial settings from my 8 point audyssey calibration, here they are:

Front L&R 40hz crossover, 11' distance, level -6.5 db

Center 150hz crossover, 10.5' distance, level -7.5 db

Surrounds 50hz crossover, 6' distance, level -8.0 db

Sub #1 8' distance, level -4.5 db

Sub #2 8' distance, level -5.0 db

Need some help getting the right settings tho. I know all 5 channels need their crossover changed to 80HZ, no problem. I do have a Radio Shack (Realistic) 33-2050 sound level meter, what do I set it to and what levels on the window am I looking for? Im assuming the receiver volume should be set at "relative 0 db" when I begin with my slm, is that right? Im going for all channels at 80db right? Sorry so rookie, just want to get this right.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I would calibrate all Speakers to 75 Db's and the Subs to 80 db's. Definitely crossover all Speakers to 80 Hz. Set the LPF of LFE to 120 Hz as well.

I am really happy for you that your 3007 arrived so quickly. Gotta be a Floridian to have gotten it that soon.

My Cable and Internet are down and I am having to use my Blackberry to Post so I will write more later.
Cheers,
JJ
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

TypeA said:


> Got the initial settings from my 8 point audyssey calibration...


Use a tape an measure the distance, correct if wrong. And yes, crossover 80Hz...



> I do have a Radio Shack (Realistic) 33-2050 sound level meter, what do I set it to and what levels on the window am I looking for?


Use C weighting, slow response...



> Im assuming the receiver volume should be set at "relative 0 db" when I begin with my slm, is that right?


You can try 0.00db, if is to loud just lower the volume until you read 75db in the SPL (in my case I had to use -7.5db to read 75db :whistling:, I'm using an external amp...)



> Im going for all channels at 80db right? Sorry so rookie, just want to get this right.


Nope, 75db on L,R,C,SL, SR, SBL and SBR.... Sub 80db.

Don't be sorry, when I started this hobby I asked the same :bigsmile:


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
So how do dual VTF-2's sound? I imagine you are grinning ear to ear. It is quite an HT you have put together
JJ
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Thank you both, youre awesome. So far so good Jack. Barely got receiver unpacked, speakers hooked up, latest firmware version verified and 8 position audyssey completed (twice)...all before I had to head to work. Not a bad bit of work accomplished in just an hour or two but it only allowed me to listen to some Pandora before I was out the door. Initial impressions, great dynamic range and yes the subs sound great! Initial problem; I figured in a room 10'x20' I wouldnt be using the volume at 3/4 of the way up! Like I said, this is listening just based on audyssey settings and crossover re-adjusted to 80hz, Im sure those speaker levels are too low and this system will get much louder when adjusted right and I get a chance to listen to a better source (like a blu ray). I was very pleased I got the receiver the next day too, remote looked brand new and I love the way the buttons have dual intensity illumination for positive visual feedback, never seen that before in a remote.

Otherwise I really want to save my impressions when I know everything is correctly adjusted, cause I know a 'lack of volume' WONT be a short-coming when the system is calibrated correctly.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
At least with my Audyssey Speaker Level Settings, I had to raise them greatly to read 75 db's.
It was so low that my SPL Meter could not even read it when set on 80 Hz Knob Setting.

I thought it might be a result of using Electrostatic Speakers which measure oddly.
Also, the Speakers and Subwoofer will sound better as they are broken in.

If it still seems you need to raise the levels that high, try Dolby Volume.
Cheers,
JJ
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Readjusted speaker levels turned out to be about +1 and +4 for subs...thats some margin of error :scratch:

Now volumes are around 60% (well below reference) so Im now officially happy with the power this receiver offers. And speaking of power, started watching the Disney movie Bolt last night. Volume was mellow as it was late at night and I do have a three bedroom attached to the far end of my one bedroom...Anyway, as Disney's intro castle begins to fill the screen at the very beginning of the disk, the first rockets begin to explode on-screen. It was at this point that I about choked on the swig of yuengling I had just taken...remarkably tight base that makes a serious impact. Im still very much in just the initial testing, but the bass response is no joke in this system, my poor neighbors.:hide:


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Got this quiet little fan that will allow me to stack my components on top of the 3007 (see signature), but the 3007 doesnt have a switched power outlet. What is the best way to make sure this fan always comes on when the receiver is powered up? Id prefer the fan activate only when a certain temp threshold is achieved, but if it comes on and goes off as the receiver powers on and off thats fine too. I dont really want to do the 'macro' thing to power on the fan with the remote when the receiver comes on, Id much prefer the fan come on based on power applied to the receiver or, better yet, when operating temperatures of the receiver call for it. Its a standard fan you plug into the wall.


----------



## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

TypeA said:


> What is the best way to make sure this fan always comes on when the receiver is powered up? Id prefer the fan activate only when a certain temp threshold is achieved, but if it comes on and goes off as the receiver powers on and off thats fine too...


What about  this  ???

There's others similar... just do a search on smart power strips :T


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

salvasol said:


> What about  this  ???
> 
> There's others similar... just do a search on smart power strips :T


Never heard of smart strips, but this would do the trick. Thanks salvasol, I knew there had to be an easy solution short of splicing a voltage drop or temperature actuated relay switch.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Fan-less, fully ventilated and installed stand-alone this receiver was uncomfortably hot to palm on the top back of the unit. No problem, manual says this is normal and thats inherent to this type gear anyway. However with this little fan engaged and all my gear stacked directly on top of the receiver (htpc, dish 211, blu ray, sling pro) the receiver top back temperature rises barely above room temperature. Onkyo owners manual says nothing about operating temperatures, Ive read around the internet that it can be just as detrimental to run an amp too cold as it would be too hot. Anyone have descending opinions? Clearly its now running cooler than normal, despite having gear stacked on top of it.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Gear stack


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I know you have a Fan specifically for your Application, but I am not sure about the Onkyo being on the bottom.
These AVR's run fairly warm and really were not Designed to have Components directly stacked on top of it.

However, if this is the only way to make it work and the Fan is really powerful, I suppose it might be ok. If it shuts down once, I would rethink the arrangement.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks Jack. Thats just it, this receiver is _barely_ getting above room temperature with this fan, that wasnt the temp it was running without the fan and in a stand-alone install, as mentioned in the post just above the pic post seen above. If anything, I was concerned the receiver was now running too cool! 

Everything else is running cool while all operating at the same time also.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Spoke to Onkyo about this 'cooler than normal' receiver operation and some issues with over-all jitter with left side distortion when going from one active video source to another. Plus asked about pandora not connecting the first time (but always connecting on the second attempt). He didnt offer much in the way with my minor issues, but said its no problem to run cooler than normal. Might post these issues in the dedicated thread for these receivers, see if any one else has these issues. 

Still working on a personal review of the system, will post after Ive got this 8.5" lcd installed for a composite monitor in the primary viewing area. Im thinking it will sit on top of the left sub and thus will be easily read from the primary viewing position in the room. This receiver is in a separate room and both hdmi outputs are full, this little monitor will be great for viewing music info without the projector on. Sadly, I couldnt find an svideo input panel (or a fixed 4x3 format) with this kind of form factor:










$80 Artec T28A 8.5" ATSC Portable Handheld TV - 480 x 234, 300:1 Native


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I am sorry to read that you are experiencing "left side jitter" when switching Video Sources. That is an issue that I have not come across spanning several Owner Threads and Groups. If you could elaborate on what you are experiencing, perhaps a solution can be found. Truly sorry regardless.

My 3007 runs noticeably cooler than did my TX-SR875. On most parts of the Chassis, it is cool to the touch. Granted, I am not using the Amplifiers in the unit, but the same can be said of my 875.

Your Post got me to check out Pandora as I have not used Internet Radio in the past few weeks. In truth, it did take a bit to connect to Pandora, but works well. I truly love this Service and it is my favorite of the Offerings.

I still do not like the idea of having the 3007 on the bottom of a fairly large set of Components. Even if cool to the touch, I just do not know how much ventilation the fan can provide directly to the Unit and to the areas that most need ventilation. The 3007 truly was not designed to be rack mounted or stacked.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Im not thrilled stacking gear either. I did get a "smart" power strip that ensures the fan always comes on with the receiver (even using only zone 2 or 3). Regardless of who uses the receiver both the fan and receiver power on at the same time, its all automatic. So Im not sure the risk is as bad as it seems. However, I will continue to monitor temps and fan operation closely. Ive not had any shut downs yet and it continues to run cooler than it did without a fan and nothing stacked. 

As for the jitter, I greatly appreciate the help offer. I think I need to do a little more experimenting first before I ask questions. For all I know its settings and not a fault of the receiver itself. I wouldnt be surprised if its 'operator error' also :T


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Is there any possible way to have the 3007 placed elsewhere? For instance, I dragged an old TV Stand and placed it in the corner of my Room to allow my AVR to be unobstructed.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Maybe when I move home to the Pacific Northwest sometime the first half of next year. My home will be bigger then, for now space is at a premium.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Ok, because of another thread Ive now broke out the tape measure...I CAN fit another 362 tower for my center channel! It would mean the projector screen viewing area would start about 6" from the ceiling. I would have to keep the surrounds and rears 162's, would you go three 362 towers in the front?

Please see my photo gallery link in my signature for current pics

BTW, my receiver has cross over settings for each channel.


----------



## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

TypeA said:


> ...I CAN fit another 362 tower for my center channel! ... would you go three 362 towers in the front?


If you can have the same speaker in the front, I'll say do it.

Probably you'll have to look daily on ebay, amazon, craiglist, etc... I did the same when I was looking for some JBL S36II (they're not producing them anymore), but finally I found them :sweat:


----------



## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Got the idea for 3 matching front speakers from another thread, eh? Wonder what that thread was?...ha,ha.
Just chiming in to give you my first sub speaker experience.
In 1998 I was using 3 matching tower speakers (DCM KX-12's) for my fronts. They put out a great amount of bass but I never had used a seperate sub before and wanted to try it. I bought a cheap $300 10" Infinity (or Klipsh, I can't remember for sure) sub. Hooked it up and holy crud did I love it, bass out the ying-yang, I thought that sucker was hitting super low.
2 years later I finally started to get more involved in tuning my system and got spl meter and test cd's. I found out my main speakers were going down below 40hz. Then I tested that almighty sub and found it was not going any lower than 35hz. So it wasn't sounding good to me because it was going low, it just sounded good because it was emphasizing the 40-80hz louder. 
Because of that I started reviewing subs and went with the HSU VTF and found what a real subwoofer should sound/feel like.
I'm glad you didn't go with any of those cheaper subs.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks to you both for the input. I will say this was a daunting upgrade; complete 5.2 plus a new receive, new cable dvr, new blu ray player, upgrade of ir blaster system, new cooling fan...Sale of old 5.0 and receiver in zone 1, sale of old 5.1 and receiver in zone 2, sale of ps3, sale of marantz rc 9500 touch screen remote. Not complete either, still have four more 162's and a small lcd monitor to get ordered and installed in zone 1, plus a pair of 162's for zone 2. The twin vtf2's have been awesome, and definitely worth the coin spent. The receiver is a good performer, highly intuitive, tho I must admit I had read the manual a couple times before the receiver's arrival 



Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I am sorry to read that you are experiencing "left side jitter" when switching Video Sources. That is an issue that I have not come across spanning several Owner Threads and Groups. If you could elaborate on what you are experiencing, perhaps a solution can be found. Truly sorry regardless.


Thought I might have got a defective receiver but maybe just a bad cable instead? This issue is now happening when I change channels on my cable box, and its happened on my blu ray player using its own input as well. Here are near and far pics of the 106" screen in zone 1 showing the band on the left side. Changing channels doesnt make the problem go away, however changing to another input (say net/usb) and back to cable does clear up the issue. This band appears and the screen will occasionally twitch, the twitch is 'subtle and obvious' all at the same time. Theres also short bursts of increase in overall screen brightness , almost like a mild flashing. Ive not got this problem to happen on my 720p projector in zone 2 using a different (and much higher quality) dvi 25' cable. Ill continue experimenting but Im leaning towards a bad hdmi cable in zone 1. 1080i reon processed to 1080p using this (newly installed) cable:

http://www.amazon.com/Cmple-Ultra-S...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1284451535&sr=8-1


















If it does end up being the cable, Ill never again believe the adage, '"High quality" digital cable is just marketing talk, when it comes to digital connections it either works or it doesnt.'


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I really would be surprised if it was the AVR that was defective. So is it Video Distortion that you are experiencing or is it an Audio Distortion in respect to the left side?

If Video, what Resolution do you have the 3007 set to? I have found when using 1080p/24, the PQ is altered when watching Football and almost everything but Movies.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

Jungle Jack said:


> If Video, what Resolution do you have the 3007 set to? I have found when using 1080p/24, the PQ is altered when watching Football and almost everything but Movies...


Can you set your AVR to bypass the video processing???

That's what I do with my Yamaha, and I let the TV do the video upscaling...:huh:

But, probably is different using a projector :blink:


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
The TX-NR3007 does offer a Passthrough Option where all Sources are rendered in their Native Resolution. However, Reon is an excellent Video Processor that has been Bench Tested in many Publications posting stellar results across the board.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

No audio problems at all, ever. Receiver is set to send 1080p to the 1080p projector in zone one, 720p to 720p projector in zone 2, set to automatic. All sources set to send either 1080i or 720p, save maybe the htpc and laptop which always send 1080p or 720p. This band and flickering and brightness flashing only happens periodically and only in zone 1. I did my best to get zone 2 to do it last night, no dice, worked flawlessly. This receiver is very intuitive and smart, automatically switches resolution when I power on the projector I want to use. I really do love this receiver. I seriously think this new 25' hdmi cable i got off amazon is junk.


----------



## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

TypeA said:


> I seriously think this new 25' hdmi cable i got off amazon is junk.


Can you swap the cable and see if it solves the problem???

In case you need to get a new cable...check this  place ...


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Type A, thanks for the clearification as I was unsure whether or not is was an Audio issue. With this being clear, I really do not think it is the AVR that is causing the issue.

I definitely think switching out Cables would be a good idea. While HDMI offers a great deal, it often has issues with long distances. Often an HDMI Amplifier is needed for long runs. You might also want to reset the PJ and make sure that either the AVR or the PJ is handling Processing.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

salvasol said:


> Can you swap the cable and see if it solves the problem???
> 
> In case you need to get a new cable...check this  place ...


Yep, me and monoprice are old friends. Was trying to avoid the week it takes to get their $30 25' hdmi cable and instead paid $13 for my amazon two-day delivery cable, my bad thinking it would work fine. :whistling:

Only cable i have that long is a 25' acoustic research dvi seen  here. Mine looks like this and was bought at bb about 5 years ago (employee discount). If the one I own is the same listed there, its not rated high speed for passing 1080p. D'oh!


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Sorry to have two issues going at the same time...

Sal and GD (or anyone else who has a thought),

Replacing my 362's + 350 with all 162's is a possibility, bad idea? Ultimately it would result in a 7.2 system, 7 Infinty 162's and dual Hsu VTF2 Mark 3's driven by an onkyo tx nr 3007. It would match all three along the front and open up my cross over to 49 Hz on all channels (as opposed to 80 hz the center offers now). This system might go to 9.2 (front high) later down the road (162's also)...

I have till next friday, a week and a half, to decide. The 362's would be returned for $7 each return shipping so no big money loss there, gotta love crutchfield. Thanks to everyone for the patience, my handle isnt 'Type A' because of my blood type


----------



## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Sounds like your contemplating 2 different speaker options:
1) Do I want to go with 3 matching front speakers?
2) If I go with 3 matching front speakers do I want to use all 362 towers or all 162 bookshelf size?

You need to do a little work and listen to some A/B testing to hear what's best.
Let's tackle #2 first, do I want to use the 362's or the 162's?
Take a pair of 162's, place them next to the 362's that are already up front. Connect those 162's to the 'speaker B' outputs of the AVR. Now que up some full bodied music that should fill up a room with sound. Switch back and forth between the 362's and 162's, whichever set sounds best, use them. In my experience, usually towers will sound fuller and fill a room better. But if there's no difference between yours, choose the smaller, cheaper ones.

Now for #1, do I want to use 3 matching front speakers?
Set up whichever speakers you've decided to use as your L/R speakers. Play the AVR test tones (pink noise) and make sure the front 3 speakers' volumes are level (using the 350 center). Now switch the pink noise back and forth between the L/R speakers and the center speaker, listen carefully. Does the pink noise sound the same or different from the center? Is it enough of a difference that you would rather buy another matching speaker for the center, or does it sound close enough that the 350 will work for you?
Only you can hear it and can decide what sounds best to you.

For my system, there is a huge difference between the center speaker and the L/R speakers and I cannot wait to get me a matching tower speaker for the center.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Very good analysis of what Im considering, thanks for understanding. Ill do both items you suggested as time permits, I think it will be well worth the time and effort. Theres little doubt in my mind that those towers will be superior to the bookshelf 162s, especially for music, but Ive been wrong many times before so we'll see lol. I think ultimately Im asking myself, assuming three towers are not an option, will a gain in tonal match and a better form factor using bookshelves be a worthy trade-off giving up the towers and a dedicated center? Ill take the time to find out over the next few days, thanks again.

I also think its cool to be able to afford 11 of the same speaker; 7 in zone 1 and a pair in each of zones 2 and 3. Its a speaker Ive not read a bad review on YET.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Replacing all with 162's changes my crossover option from 80hz now (pc350 center channel crossover) to as low as 50hz on all channels using all 162s. Assuming its not a strain on the receiver, would there be any acoustic benefit to crossing over all 7 channels lower than 80hz if I had the option to do so? Reminder, system includes twin hsu vtf2 mark 3's.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Even with Speakers capable of going down to 40 Hz, most advocate using an 80 Hz Crossover. Simply, the best place for a Speaker to be placed Acoustically, is often not the best location for low Bass. Moreover, with Subwoofers as capable as yours, there truly is nothing to be gained by lowering the Crossover. I have Main Speakers with Dual 200 Watt ICEPower Amplifiers and Surround Speakers that play down to 40 Hz and still Crossover all Speakers to 80 Hz.

That is not to say that larger Speakers might be advantageous for high volume listening even when being crossed over at 80 Hz. 80 Hz is still fairly low. Most Satellite Speakers can only go down to 150 Hz.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

TypeA said:


> ... would there be any acoustic benefit to crossing over all 7 channels lower than 80hz if I had the option to do so? Reminder, system includes twin hsu vtf2 mark 3's.


I agree with JJ.

Have you used REW??? You can download free here at the forum. 

Does your AVR has autocalibration???

I know AVR's are not perfect, but in my case my AVR sets the crossover at 100-120Hz during autocalibration (sometimes at 65Hz, 110Hz, etc. :huh but I always reset it to 80Hz; my point is this, my fronts are capable to play from 35Hz and center and surrounds from 65Hz; maybe the response is to strong if the croosover is set below 120Hz and that's why autocal choose it (by the way room is just 9x18x8, one window that is sealed with a sliding door and one door) :blink: 

About REW, I did some measurements setting the crossover at 65Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, etc. and difference is not big.

I was surprissed at the results when I set the sub output to sub only, front only and sub+front (my AVR has those options); the best result was sending the LFE/sub signal to just the subwoofer... in other words get REW and measure your response to decide which setup sound best to you :bigsmile:


----------



## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

As far as which crossover point to use, once again you're the only one here who can listen to your system and decide what sounds best to you.
I think I've read that you have an SPL meter, but do you have test cd's or dvd's with wide range frequency test tones to evaluate what frequency range your speakers can handle? If you don't know what I'm referring to, these are disks that play tones at specific frequencies, it will play a tone starting at the low end at say 20hz for 15 seconds, then it moves up to 30hz, then 40hz,... finally all the way up to the high notes above 10,000hz. The more frequency tones the disc plays, the more accurately you can gauge the response of your speakers. All these different tones are recorded onto the disc at the same volume level so in a perfect world you will hear them all at the same level. Warning, being a type A, if you start this process you might be not like what you hear and then start down the path of outboard equalizers, this is what happened to me. 
BEFORE TESTING: You want to know what your speakers are capable of by themselves first, so before testing make sure you turn off any digital processing, such as Audessey, dynamic eq, dolby volume, and make sure any treble/bass controls are at neutral. ALSO TURN OFF YOUR SUBWOOFERS!

Now you need to test whichever crossover point sounds best. I would start off at the low end, if your earlier tests show that your speakers can handle down to 50hz solidly, then start there. Listen to something you are very familiar with and plays a very wide frequency range. I think you have at least one of your subs off to the side, so one of the important listening tests is: Can I "hear" sounds coming from the sub (as I've mentioned before, if I set my crossover up to 80hz, I can hear/locate Darth Vader's voice coming from the sub, or I can hear/locate kick drums coming from the sub). For me, somewhere between 50-60hz and above is when I can start hearing the sound come from the sub.
Then move the crossover up to 60hz and repeat, then move it up to 70hz and repeat... Only you can decide what sounds best with your system.

If your AVR has a setting that allows the LFE channel info (the .1 channel) to be shared with the main L/R speakers, I would turn that ON. Because if the LFE channel info is only being routed to the subs, and you have the crossover set to below 100hz, then you might be missing out on some of the LFE info being put out by the disc.


----------



## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

This is just a thinking guy putting out his thoughts about full range speaker set ups vs small speaker set ups and how cleanly the bass info can be reproduced with each set up. These are 7.1 set ups.
This is the situation: Say your playing a movie and at a certain time it has all 7 channels playing some intense sounds in the 50hz range. This would be easy if all the info was exactly the same, but imagine if all 7 channels' info was unique to that channel.

1st SET: 7 BOOKSHELF SPEAKERS WITH CROSSOVER AT 80HZ OR ABOVE. 
It would send all 7 channels' info to one driver, the sub. It would be easy for the sub to play this if all the 7 channels' info was exactly the same but it's not the same. So info that was initially meant for 7 separate channels is now being reproduced by not just one speaker but 1 driver. Not only is it playing the info meant for other speakers, but it's also playing the LFE channel info.

2nd SET: 7 FULL RANGE SPEAKERS.
Each of the 7 speakers can reproduce it's own sounds, it doesn't have to send any of it to the sub which is busy reproducing the LFE effects.

The assumption on my part is that 1 single driver reproducing 8 channels' worth of info can't do it as cleanly as if the info were handled by more speakers.


----------



## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Just some more thinking and wondering about not using a full range speaker to it's fullest potential.
I understand using outboard subs has advantages because they can be moved for better acoustics and they usually have higher power ratings. 
Other than that what is the difference between using the sub which is built into my main speakers or using an outboard sub.
If my built-in main speaker subs play level and clean down to 40hz at any listening volume, why not use it? What is an outboard sub going to do that a main speaker won't?
Now if a weak amp is being used for the main speakers, then limiting the lower frequency range will reduce the stress on the AVR and the main speakers should play better.
Not trying to bash the 80hz crossover community but thought I would ask these while we had JJ's attention here.
One more thought. Why do most people differentiate between a speaker set up for watching movies and a set up for audio listening. For me, I want my sound to be clean, accurate, and frequency leveled whether I'm watching a movie or listening to Mozart, or Godsmack.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks again for all the input on this stuff, its helped a lot.

Crutchfield order placed today for a pair of new 162's and a pair of wall mounts for zone 2, $213 total shipped.










Tiger Direct order placed today for a Artec T28A for zone 1, $81.10 total shipped.










Monoprice order placed today for a 25' high speed hdmi cable for zone 1, $30.72 total shipped. Hope this solves my video problem. If monoprice didnt have the best price I would so go elsewhere. No phone technical support and no phone ordering, hardly customer centric. 










My used Marantz RC 9500 shipped today to a guy in France, sold on fleabay for $241 shipped.










Almost done, two more pair of 162s to order, one pair for zone 1 rears and one pair for zone 3 (the kitchen). Ive decided to keep the 362 350 config rather than going all 162's in the front. If I cant replace the 350 center with a tower Id rather keep what Ive got. I do plan on playing with the cross over of the towers, maybe trying 60hz just for giggles...


----------



## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Sounds like a great plan.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Wow. In anticipation of the 162s arriving next week for zone 2, I hooked up the surrounds in the living room to the zone 2 2 channel outputs. Im really impressed, the 162 is a killer little speaker for $85. Stand-alone in zone 2 and zone 3 will be outstanding performance for a speaker Im able to hang on a wall. Couldnt be more pleased with my choice going exclusively Infinity and Ill proudly own 8 of these nice little bookshelves. 

Jack, do you mess with zone 2? Does it have tone controls? Ive not found them yet


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

162 mounted on a Pinpoint AM40 in zone 2. Acoustimass speaker above is going away soon...










Artec T28A monitor atop Hsu vtf2 mark 3 sub as viewed from primary seating area


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Very slick that you have a small Panel for accessing the OSD without firing up the PJ. It looks like your setup is coming together nicely.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Type A, what are you sending the signal to the little screen with? How is it all connected, that is just what i want. Thats perfect!:T


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

The avr has svideo and composite "monitor" outputs. It sends all selected analog video inputs and on-screen internet radio info to either of those outputs when both zone 1 and 2 projectors are off. Those projectors are hooked up to zone 1 and 2 hdmi outputs. Since the avr itself is located in zone 2, a small monitor just for basic info seemed like a good alternative to the projector for zone 1 music listening. Couldnt find a portable tv with this form factor, and price, that had svideo inputs so its being fed composite using an already installed 50' component cable that was no longer in use. Vertical resolution isnt the greatest and it doesnt have a stand by mode (so it must be turned on and off by remote when in use unless you just want to leave it on 24/7). Its included antenna picked up 7 digital channels in my area, pretty impressive tuner/included antenna performance for $80. I can also split my digital cable coax and feed it comcast direct coax cable in addition to the avr passing along composite from the dvr through its av inputs. Pretty handy little panel but ultimately I just got it for music info from the avr...


----------



## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Thanks Type A. I've been thinking about a solution for my setup as well and thought if i just get a little LCD TV then i wouldn't have to fire up the energy hog of an LCD that i currently do just to see whats on the I-Pod or what i'm streaming.
When i saw the prices of 19" ish LCD's my mind changed to "oh i guess it's ok to burn up all that energy so i can see whats playing". 
Thanks for the hit on an exellent idea!:T


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

I stand corrected, this panel does have a selectable stand-by mode from off to 8 hours. Factory default is four hours but I started with 30 minutes. However the receiver will not send the panel video when the panel goes to stand-by or is powered off (or even when the panel is powered back on). Basically at this point I have to leave the panel on at all times, otherwise I must power on a projector and either disconnect it or power the projector right back off to get the receiver to send video to this panel. Maybe its a setting in the receiver that Im missing, cause otherwise pita to have to leave the panel on all the times....

Let me know what you decide bambino, Ill be curious what you find that you like. Theres about a dozen affordable portable tvs with inputs and, literally, zero lcd picture frames with inputs (which is what I would have preferred). My receiver also has a zone 2 composite output so Ill probably be getting a second small panel down the road for another zone. At less than $100 its a nice convenience over using a full sized display or the front of the avr for non video applications.


----------



## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

TypeA said:


> Let me know what you decide bambino, Ill be curious what you find that you like. Theres about a dozen affordable portable tvs with inputs and, literally, zero lcd picture frames with inputs (which is what I would have preferred). My receiver also has a zone 2 composite output so Ill probably be getting a second small panel down the road for another zone. At less than $100 its a nice convenience over using a full sized display or the front of the avr for non video applications.


I'll let you know what i do as soon as i get the chance.:T Kinda funny as the first thing i did was check our digital picture frame for inputs.:rolleyesno:


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

arty:arty:arty:arty:arty:arty:arty:arty:arty:
Couldnt resist posting my celebration! Ordered the final pair of Infinity P162 speakers tonight, plus a pair of AM40 wall brackets. This officially (financially) completes my 2010 audio upgrade which comprised a 7.2 theater, 2.0 zone 2, 2.0 zone 3, plus a Onkyo receiver and Panasonic blu ray player. What I find most cool about going with 8 Infinity P162's is that I can go 7.2 with ALL 162's in the theater and move the pair of P362's to zone 2 or 3 in the future, now hows that for flexible? With the coupon codes and excellent starting price crutchfield offers, I just dont think I could have done any better with another speaker or seller, especially in price. Thanks to all here that helped me out with advice on this upgrade.


----------



## callas01 (Oct 24, 2010)

congrats, I know how you feel. I just bought a pair of Dynaudio Excites. 

Congrats, I see that you have dual Hsu Subs. Nice setup.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Congratulations! I am so happy for you. The Dual VTF's must sound amazing. I also hope that you are as pleased with your AVR as I am with mine.

The system you put together is comparable to ones costing multiples of what was spent. Gotta sound fantastic.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

So what does everyone think? Any input is appreciated.... Considering my existing 7.2 system crosses over at 80 hz, and twin hsu vtf2 mark 3 subs means bunches of bass, would it be a BIG noticeable step down to replace the towers with bookshelf speakers? My _original_ plan was a pair of 162's wall mounted on brackets (2.0) in zone 3 for nothing but music _but_ I have room for my 362 towers instead. Im considering moving these 362 towers out of zone 1 and replacing with a pair of 162s mounted on the wall below the front left and right highs seen here:


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

I think it would work just fine. It is something that can be tried and if not pleased, changed. That being said, I think what is being considered will be copasetic provided Music is not a major consideration in that zone.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## taoggniklat (Mar 30, 2010)

I think your system looks amazing outside of one HUGE flaw....

please for the sake of my own eyes, get rid of the pink frilly things over the windows! :yikes:
:5stars:
:hsd:


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks for the input jack. What are my options for turning the new left and right highs into a second pair of front left and right channels? A four channel amp and the pre-outs on the back of 3007, is that the way to go? Currently zone 2 is a pair of 162s for a second display, zone 3 is a pair of 362s for just music. Can you recommend an amp setup? Since the highs are already mounted, would it be a bad idea to run four 162s with a vertical spread like that, would I be better off pulling them back off the wall and installing lower and closer to the second pair? FYI, the sweet spot on the 162 is lower than normal, between the bottom of the woofer and the port, not sure if that makes a difference...


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

taoggniklat said:


> I think your system looks amazing outside of one HUGE flaw....
> 
> please for the sake of my own eyes, get rid of the pink frilly things over the windows! :yikes:
> :5stars:
> :hsd:


Lol, whatever, in due time.


----------



## taoggniklat (Mar 30, 2010)

TypeA said:


> Lol, whatever, in due time.


Just giving you a hard time...system looks good  :T


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

TypeA said:


> Thanks for the input jack.  What are my options for turning the new left and right highs into a second pair of front left and right channels? A four channel amp and the pre-outs on the back of 3007, is that the way to go? Currently zone 2 is a pair of 162s for a second display, zone 3 is a pair of 362s for just music. Can you recommend an amp setup? Since the highs are already mounted, would it be a bad idea to run four 162s with a vertical spread like that, would I be better off pulling them back off the wall and installing lower and closer to the second pair? FYI, the sweet spot on the 162 is lower than normal, between the bottom of the woofer and the port, not sure if that makes a difference...


In truth, I think the mounting of the Height Channel appears optimal. Given that it is a somewhat narrow Room, I do not know how effective the Width Channel would be. Might be worth a shot, but I like the manner in which things are configured.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Yeah going width and/or rear channels in zone 1 would mean the loss of two channel services in zone 2 and/or zone 3, so neither width nor rears are an option for me if I want zone 2 and 3 support. And youre absolutely right, installing wides in a room 10' wide would be a waste. I was asking if you would forego the height channels all togeather and go with _two pair_ of book shelves for just the front left and right channels? Basically 5.2 or 7.2 (height).


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

My mistake. Tis been a long Day... As to using dual Fronts, I can only say it is somewhat unorthodox but could be worth experimenting with. I do think the manner in which it has been Setup is textbook. That being said, sometimes thinking outside the box yields amazing results.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

Thanks jack, would I need to go with an outboard 4 channel amplifier to drive all four at the same time? If so, your recommendations on gear have been spot-on thus far, can you recommend an amp?


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

M&K used to use multiple S150 monitors on the front 3 channels as to give greater headroom for Home Theatre Set ups and was recommended, I don't see why it will not work and worth giving it a go anyway, I would keep amplification the same though as to make an even response with speakers running.


----------



## TypeA (Aug 14, 2010)

recruit said:


> M&K used to use multiple S150 monitors on the front 3 channels as to give greater headroom for Home Theatre Set ups and was recommended, I don't see why it will not work and worth giving it a go anyway, I would keep amplification the same though as to make an even response with speakers running.


Thanks. Same amplification? Can I drive two speakers on each of my left and right channels on my receiver? Each would have its own wire....


----------

