# Seeking Advice for More ‘Woofage’



## waffles (Mar 13, 2008)

Here is what I have today:

* HT room/area: 20’ x 16’x 7.5’ (L x W x H), 2400 ft^3

I call it ‘room/area’ because while this area is acoustically treated, its left and right ‘walls’ consist of hanging panels made out of 2” OC703. This ‘room’ is located in an otherwise unfinished basement of approx. 7200 ft^3.

The acoustic treatments work well to keep the higher frequencies in check. However, when it comes to LFE acoustics it seems that I would need to consider the entire space of 7200 ft^3.



Equipment:

* Integra DTR 70.4

* LRC and surrounds: Klipsch THX Ultra2 HT Series: (3) KL-650-THX LCRs and (4) KS-525-THX surrounds

* Projector and CIH screen set up, 2 + 2 tiered seating

* Current subs: (2) SVS PC13 Ultra (BASH), placed (1) each at front and back center



Currently not in use:

* Pinnacle sub Digital Sub 600 (dual 12”, 600 watts system power) (Initially, I tried to integrate this sub with the 2 Ultras, but gave up. I seemed to be doing more harm than good. I think this was mainly due to my rather limited skills in this area.)

* Behringer DCX2496, bought for my attempt above, but with my current setup (MultEQ Pro and the Ultra’s DSP/EQ settings) I currently see no need for it.




Also available:

* Audyssey Pro Kit for MultEQ Pro XT32

* REW with micro, however I have limited system experience/knowledge



Movie/Music ratio is 95% / 5%


Budget: as little as possible, but I am perfectly OK to spend a few grand if the result at the end is fully satisfactory.


Here is what I am looking for:

More punch in the 10-20 Hz area and a more tactile experience.



What is the best way to achieve this?

I would prefer to keep my existing equipment and integrate additional subs in the setup? However, this might not be as easy for me (see above).

Is it better to sell off my subs and get bigger ones?

What subs should I be looking at?

DIY vs. manufactured subs is the next topic. I am very open to DIY, but have only limited access to tools. Flat packs may be a solution.

I am looking forward to your guidance and suggestions.

_____

Axel


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## pddufrene (Mar 14, 2013)

Wow, that's one hell of a setup u already have! Lol, is like to have half of that. Did u look into the PSA XV30's yet? Are even think about adding some tactical devices to your seating? Like the earthquake's or buttkickers? That might be another option.


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

I think I am a little confused. Is the room open to the whole 7200 ft^3? If not, it seems to me that you have sufficient sub "horsepower" for the room. However, lots of output in the 10-20 Hz range is hard to get and will require multiple subs or an infinite baffle setup. Have you looked at an IB?

If you are looking at "slam" during effects, you may wish to look at Hsu's mid bass modules:

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/mbm-12mk2.html

A pair of them located as close as possible to your listening chairs (maybe just to the side or behind) will provide some of the tactile feel that you are looking for. I have two of them in my system and setup properly they really work well for the intended purpose.

Also, I don't see a mention of bass traps. Adding a large area of trapping at one or more locations in the room will improve the transient response of the subs you already have. Check out our Home Audio Acoustics forum for ideas.

When you were trying the Pinnacles, did you drive them from the second sub output? I had trouble integrating a Velodyne FSR-18 with my Hsu ULS-15 Quads until I used the second sub output and let XT32 EQ and time align it separately. Made a world of difference.


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## waffles (Mar 13, 2008)

The HT is in the basement (7200 ft^3). The HT’s front, rear, floor and ceiling are made of concrete/wood. However, the sides of the HT area consist of hanging panels made out of 2” OC703. Think of it as ‘a room in a room’, but with the side walls made of hanging panels, rather than rigid walls.

I have bass traps in (3) of the (4) HT corners . 

I tried to manually integrate the Pinnacle with the Behringer and REW. Back then I had a Denon AVR-4308 with only (1) sub out and I used the Behringer to split and EQ the signal. Eventually I gave up – too complex for my skill level.

My Integra now has (2) independent sub outs. I use them my SVS Ultras. How could I best integrate the third sub (Pinnacle)?


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## waffles (Mar 13, 2008)

pddufrene said:


> Wow, that's one moo baby moo of a setup u already have! Lol, is like to have half of that. Did u look into the PSA XV30's yet? Are even think about adding some tactical devices to your seating? Like the earthquake's or buttkickers? That might be another option.


Thanks for your suggestions. I actually tried ButtKickers in my setup, but did not like them. I could not get them to seamlessly integrate with the 'real' bass.


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

Did you try putting both the SVS on one sub out and the Pinnacle on the other? That is what I am doing - one sub out feeds 4 Hsu ULS-15s on the front wall; the second feeds an older Velodyne FSR-18 and the Hsu MBMs located near the rear on one wall.


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## waffles (Mar 13, 2008)

hjones4841 said:


> Did you try putting both the SVS on one sub out and the Pinnacle on the other? That is what I am doing - one sub out feeds 4 Hsu ULS-15s on the front wall; the second feeds an older Velodyne FSR-18 and the Hsu MBMs located near the rear on one wall.


I have not tried this. I think I would have to co-locate the SVS Ultras let's say center rear and put the Pinnacle front center. There is such a big output imbalance between the (2) SVS Ultras and the single fairly weak Pinnacle. I wonder if this setup would be a non-starter from the get go. I would appreciate your thoughts on this, please.


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## pddufrene (Mar 14, 2013)

You would probably do better selling the weaker sub and getting some new ones you could place in the front. Possibly 2 PSA XV30'S would do u much justice beings you have flexibility with your price point. The run around 1,400 a piece shipped.


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## waffles (Mar 13, 2008)

waffles said:


> I have not tried this. I think I would have to co-locate the SVS Ultras let's say center rear and put the Pinnacle front center. There is such a big output imbalance between the (2) SVS Ultras and the single fairly weak Pinnacle. I wonder if this setup would be a non-starter from the get go. I would appreciate your thoughts on this, please.


So I tried this last night. It's a non-starter. The Pinnacle simply cannot keep up.

At this point I will likely go the DIY route, probably with (4) 18" woofers and flat packs to start. I may or may not keep my SVS Ultras, depending how well I can integrate them with the flat packs.

Thanks everybody for the input!


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

I have 1 PB-13U & it rocks my room. I can't imagine 2 of them leaving you wanting. I suspect you have some room issues. Can you measure with REW?

I would call Ed Mullen @ SVS, their customer support it top notch. He will be able to help you.


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## jlpowell84 (Jan 29, 2013)

So, any progress? Did you buy anything?


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## ilok (Jul 20, 2013)

Try the PSA XS30? Or their Triax?


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## steve nn (Jul 23, 2006)

Integrating subs is generally not a good idea. I’m not saying it can’t be done for I have done it in the past as a experiment with what I had on hand that were closely tuned. Differently tuned subs or designs can be a real nightmare.. cancelations. It’s hard enough as it is getting alike subs dialed in properly. Here are a couple quotes I have copied from Ed and Bill F regarding the subject that might be of interest? Anyway your issue sounds like it’s room induced and very well could benefit from another Ultra placed and dialed in correctly. A suggestion I would have is to check with Ed and make him work for his $$ in helping you get things dialed in.


> Bill Fitz,
> It makes about as much engineering sense as putting a snow tire on one wheel of your car, a rain tire on another, a summer tire on the third and a racing slick on the fourth. The intent would be to have good performance in all road conditions, the result would be bad performance in any.





> Ed Mullen.. Unless you want to run the PB13-Ultra in sealed mode, quad SB13-Ultra would be the best choice. The PB13U (in vented mode) and SB13U have dissimilar frequency and phase responses and may not integrate optimally in-room. Even with the PB13U in sealed mode, it would not have an identical phase response as the SB13U (but it would certainly be closer than vented mode). Ideally though, quad SB13U would be optimal.


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## SpkrNuts (Aug 29, 2011)

Hi,

Relatively new to this forum, but NOT new to the world of HT and subwoofer/speaker setups, design, etc.
Instead of spending several thousand dollars on more subs, i would seriously consider replacing the "hanging wall panels" with real walls. Since it sounds like you have tons of space to work with....use a dual 2X4 studded wall setup often used in studios long ago...each wall is insulated, covered on facing side, and there is an isolation layer of additional insulation between the walls. Outside wall and inside wall never contact each other. With a double layer of rock on the inside wall.....now you have a true "room" for the subs to see and work within. Even a single 2X6 or 2X8 stud wall with plenty of insulation filling the voids would be hugely preferrable to the hanging panel wall idea. Is there some valid reason that walls are not in place, i.e. restrictions from spouse, landlord, etc. or access to plumbing, electrical, etc.?? Filling a 7,200 cu.ft room with copious bass is going to be expensive, and make the remaing footage of "not used for HT" space in the basement literally unbearable to be able to walk through without getting pounded. The lowest frequencies are going to spill into the main space while the upper frequencies will be somewhat contained, which is your problem at present.....so instead of trying to fill a swimming pool container with bass, why not build a container to better suit the bass you have....which from what I read, should be copious for a 20-24 X 16 room.
Just another way to look at it.


John


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