# How do you get the most bass without a sub?



## thirsty ear (Mar 24, 2009)

I am slowly building my first 5.1 system and I have a center channel, left speaker and right speaker. I will be adding a pair of surrounds soon. I may not add a sub for awhile because I still don’t have a TV yet (I'm using my 20” iMac for now) and a 50” plasma will be a large purchase. So without a sub I want to get as much bass out of the satellite speakers as I can. My left and right speakers are capable of dropping to 45 Hz. My center can only do down to 73 Hz

I have the following equipment so far: Onkyo 705 7.1 AVR
NHT classic three center
Two NHT classic three 

With my crossover set at full band my speakers should push out as much bass as they are rated for. However when I set my Receiver at DD pro logic II the left and right speakers seem to only put out mid to high range and at a lower SPL. When I use the Neural THX 5.1 the bass seems to increase in the left and right channels. 

Being new to multi-channel audio, I find the left and right channel to seem a little less important or maybe just not carrying as big of a load as my 2 Channel system. 

What can I do to increase bass until I get a sub? What sound formats should I use with in the Onkyo 705. 

P.S.  My room is 13” by 17” by 7.8”, so the bass when set in stereo mode will shake the walls. The NHT classic three 6.5” sealed woofer really hits the lower notes when playing music.


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## brandonnash (Sep 11, 2006)

I don't know if this will work but you could just yet setting your left and right channels to large and change your center to small. This would route the bass to the left and right channels. Might be worth a shot just to see what happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Make sure you have your receiver menu set to "No" sub or "off" for the sub otherwise it will still try to send information to the .1 channel ALso check your DVD players menu sometimes there is also settings there that need to be turned off.


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## eaglerider94 (Mar 19, 2008)

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## Candoo (Mar 19, 2009)

ONe of the biggest base boosts i can perosnally offer. is simple and FREE.. first like others have suggested calabrate your HT recieverr correctly too large and sub off. 

however placing your speaks in a corner or near a wall can greatly change base reflection into a room.

experiementing with verious locations can prove to be fun and will certianly improve the level of bass.

this maynot be the professional way. however. it has worked for me.

thank you for reading my post.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Candoo said:


> however placing your speaks in a corner or near a wall can greatly change base reflection into a room.


Placing speakers in a corner (particularly the main front speakers) is almost always a bad idea as it will cause problems with the speakers imaging and can cause cancellation issues.
If your mains dont have a frequency response below 50Hz there is no real way to give you more bass (you cant make something out of nothing). A sub is your only option.


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## thirsty ear (Mar 24, 2009)

I have my onkyo set at full range (or large speaker) for all three front speakers. 

My bookshelf speakers play down to 45 Hz and I get great bass when I listen to music in the pure audio mode.

So my question would be, does some of the bass get lost when running in one of the muti-channel modes?

One point that may help is that I am temporally running all audio out my headphone jack on my computer, which would be 2-channel analog. So this could be fine for listening to music but when a 5.1 channel movie is played it would be down mixed to 2-channel and then using DD pro-logic II, or THX 5.1 in the Onkyo the data is then produced back into 3.0 due to my present speaker set up. 

When I go back home from college I will be able to use my oppo DVD player with the coax digital output. 

Will using digital output produce better results as far as bass output?

Bottom line is that when I complete my 5.1 system I will have much more bass, but because I do not even have a large TV yet I will not buy a Sub for some time. I just want to get the kinda bass I get from the pure mode when listening to music. 

Another interesting issue I have deals with volume. When in pure audio mode I can turn up the sound to around 85 and can not turn it up any more because it gets too loud. However, when I use one of the multi audio modes I reach 85 and the output or db does not increase there after all the way up to max on the volume.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

thirsty ear said:


> I have my onkyo set at full range (or large speaker) for all three front speakers.


This may not be the best choice as your mains only play down to 45Hz (sending anything lower can cause undue stress on the drivers).



> So my question would be, does some of the bass get lost when running in one of the muti-channel modes?


In the multi channel modes do you have your Onkyo set up so it knows there is no sub? if so then no you should have about the same level of lows going to your mains.


> One point that may help is that I am temporally running all audio out my headphone jack on my computer.


This is not going to give you the best audio quality even a line out would be better. 



> Will using digital output produce better results as far as bass output?


Yes



> Another interesting issue I have deals with volume. When in pure audio mode I can turn up the sound to around 85 and can not turn it up any more because it gets too loud. However, when I use one of the multi audio modes I reach 85 and the output or db does not increase there after all the way up to max on the volume.


Have you run the Auddessy setup on the Onkyo and how many positions did you measure?


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## thirsty ear (Mar 24, 2009)

--- I would think that when set on pure audio or stereo, the mains are getting full band anyway and damage would not be an issue. Back in the day of just stereo, small bookshelf speakers played the whole frequency range from a CD. My speakers are also three way so the mid range has its own driver and the woofer gets only the lows. I would think this would make the speakers more robust for handling lower range. 

---Yes the onkyo is set to no sub.


---Ran auddessy with 3 positions tested, I think I will try all eight positions as this would give a better average. Looks like audyssey is setting the center at a low db and with a delay. This is due to the fact that I have the center channel and mains at the same distance from the wall. 

With audyssey *on* the db output is restricted but the seamless match between all the speakers is better.

With audyssey *off* the db is not restricted. 

Tony, I like you SVS sub, are you running it as a sealed or ported sub? Do you let Audyssey equalize and room correct your sub? I am looking at sealed subs and I am torn between Velodyne and SVS.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

thirsty ear said:


> Tony, I like you SVS sub, are you running it as a sealed or ported sub? Do you let Audyssey equalize and room correct your sub? I am looking at sealed subs and I am torn between Velodyne and SVS.


The SVS PB13U is just fantastic, I have it with one port sealed with a 15Hz tune. I let Audyssey do the correction for everything but have the crossover set to 60Hz as my mains and surrounds all play well lower than that. For the money the SVS kicks serious butt and in my opinion is the best bang for buck.


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## eaglerider94 (Mar 19, 2008)

> Tony, I like you SVS sub, are you running it as a sealed or ported sub? Do you let Audyssey equalize and room correct your sub? I am looking at sealed subs and I am torn between Velodyne and SVS.


Vincent,
I'm in the same situation as you are, deciding between SVS's New PB12-Plus or a Velodyne. I'm leaning towards the SVS but would like to get some feedback on the Velodyne's, specifically the DD-12. Not much feedback here as it appears many favor SVS.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

As I have never owned a Velodyne sub I cant really comment but its my understanding for the money you will spend on the Velodyne the SVS is a much better buy.

Rick, Why are you not looking at the PB13 Ultra? it has alot more to offer than the 12 Plus. and still come in alot lower price than the Velodyne


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

I am not sure that AV recievers send bass to the mains like they should!! 

I think what is played on the LFE channel is not sent to the mains - as mains are not meant to play that "low"

some disks are really bad with this 

Music DVD's play everything through the mains - I have Faithless & my mains go low like a sub - watching a movie the sub does all the work!

Good luck & best option is a sub


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

erasma said:


> I am not sure that AV recievers send bass to the mains like they should!!


If you set your receiver to no sub and "Large" for the mains or select pure direct mode it will send everything to the mains. However if your mains only go down to 50Hz thats as low as you will hear.


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

I would love to test some of that

If all amps take the LFE channel and add it to the mains - how can one tell?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

At lower volume levels this is usually not noticeable unless your speakers are floor standers and have a fairly large cabinet as to reproduce the lower frequencies you need to move some air and small drivers simply cant at low db's. 
What speakers are you using?


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

I run Cerwin Vega 15" as fronts & rears

I am not sure all amps send the LFE to the mains even if you say you have large speakers. I run a sunfire 7X400 watts rms amp and use my Yamaha rxv 1400 as a pre amp.

http://www.cerwinvega.com/CLS15.php

•Frequency Response: 26 Hz - 20 kHz
•Peak Power: 400 watts
• Sensitivity (1w/1m): 94 dB 
• 6.5" midrange with Fiber Impregnated Cone 
• 1" Soft Dome Tweeter with Ferro Fluid
• 15" Cast Frame High Excursion Woofer 
• Proprietary Mid and High Frequency Waveguide 
• Fuse Protection 
• Elegant Black-Ash Enclosure


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## random username (Feb 28, 2009)

these are sealed speakers, so I really don't think it will hurt much allowing them to see some signal that is below 45 Hz, as long as there is no boost down there. Not like a ported speaker where you unload the woofer below the tuning point.

I think placement options are worth exploring. Towards the wall, and towards the floor (take them off the stands if they are currently on stands, and angle them up slightly) will probably help overall bass output but of course there are negative aspects just like anything else...but it costs nothing to try.


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## thewire (Jun 28, 2007)

Sometimes but not always a mix will be done and the in-phase and out-of phase content is intentially placed into the mix. Which way it is done is anyones guess unless they tell us. This is usually reserved for rooms where the studio is not too dead sounding and they have plenty of power at their disposal to listen at or close to a commercial theater volume level. They might have also listened to the mix at another theater or sometimes more than one. 

With no subwoofer they should be set to large and subwoofer to no and with the tone controls or a subsonic filter to help protect the amplifiers and speakers.


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## erasma (Apr 18, 2009)

What about putting them in a big box? won't that make them sound better


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