# Q: BIC vs KLIPSCH vs ? Subs < $500 ?



## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

*Q: BIC vs KLIPSCH vs ? Subs &lt; $500 ?*

So as the subject indicates ... I'm shopping for an economical Sub to augment my Bose 401s (which reach down to about 30Hz, but there's some wavering from 50 to 90). I'm not looking for huge, thudding, thrumming bass. I want tight, accurate, clean low freqs, ideally down to 25Hz before dropping off. It will be installed in the ground floor of a townhome sitting on a concrete slab. 

I've read several threads here and a few other forums, and found some compelling recommendations and anecdotal reports on the following, all in a similar price range on Amazon:

Klipsch Sub-12HG
BIC F12
BIC V1120

During shopping also found:

BIC RTR-EV1200

I've also noticed the Klipsch RW-12II, which is quite a bit more, but I saw some strong recommendations for an earlier RW-12 model, wondering if this is truly feet and thuds better than the others. 

I saw a lot of recommendations for SVS (PB1000 or SB1000) and another brand, but frankly, I'm interested in something I can get on AMAZON, cheap and fast. I know, that's a silly limitation. 

All feedback, suggestions, or war stories welcome. Thanks!

P.S. Polk's 505 model has a lot of fans, but not on forums. A lot of posts indicate that as good as Polk's speakers are, their subs ... aren't. "Boomy."

ADDENDUM: my listening is 70% music (some containing lots of low end, e.g. ambient space music, jazz), and 30% movies (mostly oldies, drama, scifi, and a little action). 

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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Based on the subs you mentioned I assume your budget is from $250-500. I too would suggest going with SVS ported PB1000 or SB1000 sealed for $499.99 with free shipping. You will have high quality sound without breaking the bank. I know it is not Amazon but why only from Amazon?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Cant agree more, the SVS PB100 sub will walk circles around those you listed above. Another option is the HSU VTF2 MK4


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

Didn't really want to spend as much as $500 unless it's a superb deal. Svs seems great. Only real appeal of Amazon is speedy delivery, returns, discounts. (e.g. $400 sub for $200)....


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Chromejob said:


> Didn't really want to spend as much as $500 unless it's a superb deal. Svs seems great. Only real appeal of Amazon is speedy delivery, returns, discounts. (e.g. $400 sub for $200)....
> 
> 
> // Tapatalk on iPad Mini - Misspelling courtesy of Logitech folio kybd //


 I think SVS for $499.99 is a SUPERB deal. I am sure they have fast shipping plus they offer a 45 day in home audition and they even cover the return shipping if you are not happy with the performance.


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

*Q: BIC vs KLIPSCH vs ? Subs &lt; $500 ?*

I saw that on their site. More than I want to spend (and those $1000 cylinders call to me) ... would it compare favorably with the equivalent Klipsch thats roughly $500?

Just curious, what's the appeal/benefit of the PB model (with port)and the SB model? I know, I need to read both product pages, but real world owner feedback matters to me. 

ADDENDUM: my listening is 70% music (some containing lots of low end, e.g. ambient space music, jazz), and 30% movies (mostly oldies, drama, scifi, and a little action). 

// Tapatalk on iPad Mini - Misspelling courtesy of Logitech folio kybd //


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

A ported sub will give you a deeper extension at higher levels (below 18Hz). They are typically nearly twice the size as its sealed counterpart.
The SVS sub would walk all over the Klipsch in all regards.

You honestly cant buy a sub for less that is going to be the quality your looking for. You will again be disappointed if you go with the others you mention.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I would also go with one of the SVS subs. I know that's not one of the subs you were considering but at $500 you're going to be getting a higher quality sub. Not to mention a better performing sub. I would give SVS a call and I'm sure after speaking to them you'll change your mind.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> A ported sub will give you a deeper extension at higher levels (below 18Hz). They are typically nearly twice the size as its sealed counterpart.
> The SVS sub would walk all over the Klipsch in all regards.
> 
> You honestly cant buy a sub for less that is going to be the quality your looking for. You will again be disappointed if you go with the others you mention.





JBrax said:


> I would also go with one of the SVS subs. I know that's not one of the subs you were considering but at $500 you're going to be getting a higher quality sub. Not to mention a better performing sub. I would give SVS a call and I'm sure after speaking to them you'll change your mind.


They are absolutely correct. If I ever buy a sub it will definitely be SVS.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Chromejob said:


> I saw that on their site. More than I want to spend (and those $1000 cylinders call to me) ... //


 The cylinders call to me as well. I have 2. Powerful and articulate. These guys definitely have you pointed in the right direction. 500 bucks is considerable, and I think you'd do well to forget Amazon(which I love btw), and look at it with a long term investment ideal. Your goal seems to be accuracy and articulation. The amazon subs "might" compete in output, but will be sloppy in comparison. This is where many would recommend sealed. They're usually thought of as tighter sounding(another debate), but in lower frequencies they take much more power and excursion to equal the output of a ported sub. Fwiw, I think the 505 gets beat up on forums for its lack of extension more than anything. My very good friend has one, and while an SVS cylinder it's not! It does have some appeal. Do yourself a favor and call SVS.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

*Re: Q: BIC vs KLIPSCH vs ? Subs &lt; $500 ?*



Chromejob said:


> I saw a lot of recommendations for SVS (Lava?) and another brand, but frankly, I'm interested in something I can get on AMAZON, cheap and fast. I know, that's a silly limitation.


SVS and Lava are not affiliated. AAMOF, Lava has been out of business for about 2 years now.

Generally speaking, _cheap+fast=disappointing_. Most people keep their sub for years, so the decision should probably be about something that represents a long term solution. That's just my 02 though.


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## chris0228 (Feb 25, 2014)

If I could offer some prior experience here: my brother had his eyes on a new BIC sub about 6 months ago as it had decent reviews at a great price point. Despite my opinion voiced that you get what you pay for, he ordered the BIC. Came in, hooked up, and was very unimpressive. Looked pretty good, performed ok for music, but was terrible for movies. He realized he needed a little more to get what he desired. I told him about SVS, he decided on the PB2000, returned the BIC and ordered the SVS. HUGE and I mean HUGE improvement over the older 12" paradigm and it killed the BIC tenfold. 

IMHO, for movies, a good sub is absolutely crucial if not the most important speaker. If it's a budget limitation, seriously the best thing you can do is wait, save a little more, and buy a better sub. I haven't talked to a single person who admits to buying too much sub. All these forums are filled with posts on folks disappointed with their cost effective subs. Don't be one of the later.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Good post Chris. Points well said. 
Jman, that's what I was trying to say.


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## nwf477 (Feb 8, 2015)

Here is my input, there are lots of choices some good others not so. I would suggest you go to this site:


http://www.data-bass.com/home There are numerous subs that have all been tested the same way the charts will show how low max spl and everything in between. It's also nice it even has the prices for the different brands which will help you narrow down your search. When I first got into HT my first sub was a JBL ES250PBK (140.00 on Amazon ) it was great but after awhile I realized something was missing so started reading and asking questions maybe too many. I am not implying you have to spend lots of money but at least try and figure out the best way to spend and get the most for your dollar.


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## jreb14 (Feb 18, 2015)

I would recommend the Dayton Sub-1200 or Sub -1500 under $200 subs with lots to offer. They will sound as good as any of the subs. Plus you can return them if do not like them.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Not a chance either of the Dayton Subs would come close to the quality of the SVS or even the HSU, totally different leage.


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

Chromejob said:


> Didn't really want to spend as much as $500 unless it's a superb deal. Svs seems great. Only real appeal of Amazon is speedy delivery, returns, discounts. (e.g. $400 sub for $200)....
> 
> my listening is 70% music (some containing lots of low end, e.g. ambient space music, jazz), and 30% movies (mostly oldies, drama, scifi, and a little action).


If you do not want the lowest notes and you can live with around 27 to 30 hz for music,
Then my preference would be the JBL Studio 550P subwoofer

On sale
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0TTJASSJWCVWN2ER6KAE


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## jamesfrazier (Jul 24, 2011)

jreb14 said:


> I would recommend the Dayton Sub-1200 or Sub -1500 under $200 subs with lots to offer. They will sound as good as any of the subs. Plus you can return them if do not like them.


No sir. I would stay as far away from these subs unless your budget is around 100 dollars. Do some thinking here, amp, sub, cabinet, shipping, and profit all have to come with these subs. Imagine the price of components going into these budget subs? Do your self a favor and save an extra month and spend at least 500. Or wait the same amount of time and find a used sub. It takes patience but it's worth it. I pulled the whole budget sub idea and bought a new one a year later. My life is so much happier now  bass is heaven.


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## jreb14 (Feb 18, 2015)

I agree SVS makes awesome subs. I was just trying to offer and alternative to Klipsch or BIC. I am currently in market for a SUB for my PC and Bedroom myself. I recommend people go out and listen to some high end subs at 60-80dbs before purchasing. Movie and Music Bass are made for different subs and one size does not fit all. It is hard to explain but tight 20hz low deep bass is much different then 35hz lower end subs. Twenty years ago and I would have the sub cranked now it is 40-50% of gain. Standing waves are the enemy of solid bass. Quite frankly low bass is felt and not heard like upper bass. I sometimes miss that cheap sub woofer thump. 
I have multiple subs JBL 8", Klipsch KSW12, Carver True Sub Woofer, PSA XV-15 and ButtKicker LFE Kit. High end subs are sleeping giants. It can be tricky to taming a hard hitting sub. My PSA is capable of 110-15 spl. Yet it is hardly noticeable there at 55-75db's. My JBL 8in on my SB400 sound-bar lets me get away with more thump because it is not so hard hitting and will not shake the whole house. 
I do not think all people want or can afford the high end subs because they do not bang the same way that lower end subs do. I am adding a 80 to 150hz mid-bass sub to my home theater. Because I want some of the boom with out the house shaking. I have seen many post of people thinking there sub is not working. I feel this is misunderstood and over simplified part of home theater or music. Audyssey multeq is not the answer for me I do not like its settings. I do not feel miked AVR's are very reliable. This makes a DSP and EQ the missing and important add-on to the system.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

jreb14 said:


> I agree SVS makes awesome subs. I was just trying to offer and alternative to Klipsch or BIC. I am currently in market for a SUB for my PC and Bedroom myself. I recommend people go out and listen to some high end subs at 60-80dbs before purchasing. Movie and Music Bass are made for different subs and one size does not fit all. It is hard to explain but tight 20hz low deep bass is much different then 35hz lower end subs. Twenty years ago and I would have the sub cranked now it is 40-50% of gain. Standing waves are the enemy of solid bass. Quite frankly low bass is felt and not heard like upper bass. I sometimes miss that cheap sub woofer thump. I have multiple subs JBL 8", Klipsch KSW12, Carver True Sub Woofer, PSA XV-15 and ButtKicker LFE Kit. High end subs are sleeping giants. It can be tricky to taming a hard hitting sub. My PSA is capable of 110-15 spl. Yet it is hardly noticeable there at 55-75db's. My JBL 8in on my SB400 sound-bar lets me get away with more thump because it is not so hard hitting and will not shake the whole house. I do not think all people want or can afford the high end subs because they do not bang the same way that lower end subs do. I am adding a 80 to 150hz mid-bass sub to my home theater. Because I want some of the boom with out the house shaking. I have seen many post of people thinking there sub is not working. I feel this is misunderstood and over simplified part of home theater or music. Audyssey multeq is not the answer for me I do not like its settings. I do not feel miked AVR's are very reliable. This makes a DSP and EQ the missing and important add-on to the system.


 ?????


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

jreb14 said:


> Movie and Music Bass are made for different subs and one size does not fit all. It is hard to explain but tight 20hz low deep bass is much different then 35hz lower end subs.


Totally not true. A well made sub will handle music just as well as movies.


> I sometimes miss that cheap sub woofer thump.
> I have multiple subs JBL 8", Klipsch KSW12, Carver True Sub Woofer, PSA XV-15 and ButtKicker LFE Kit. High end subs are sleeping giants. It can be tricky to taming a hard hitting sub. My PSA is capable of 110-15 spl. Yet it is hardly noticeable there at 55-75db's. My JBL 8in on my SB400 sound-bar lets me get away with more thump because it is not so hard hitting and will not shake the whole house.
> I do not think all people want or can afford the high end subs because they do not bang the same way that lower end subs do. I am adding a 80 to 150hz mid-bass sub to my home theater.


 No wonder you have so many issues. your trying to blend way to many different subs into your system.


> I feel this is misunderstood and over simplified part of home theater or music. Audyssey multeq is not the answer for me I do not like its settings. I do not feel miked AVR's are very reliable. This makes a DSP and EQ the missing and important add-on to the system.


Again it seems your are the one who is misinformed. Thats fine if you think this way however it is not fact at all. Room correction is one of the best features to come out in modern AVRs and is widely regarded as the best way to set up a system.


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## jreb14 (Feb 18, 2015)

Good clean articulate sound is a challenge and do not listen to anyone who tells you it is easy. I do not have bass issues or audio issues. My system is smooth at 55db's. I get full articulation in the room at really quiet levels with a PSA sub. If I want to blow away the neighbors the system has the headroom to go 110db's. My collection of subs is over 20 years.

Audyssey MultEQ is not perfect (owned and tested yamaha, marantz, onkyo, and pioneer) and it is my opinion that it may work for the non tinker it still can not replace the ear and proper speaker placement. I have professional mics and recording equipment. 


I design, install, and setup professional sound for 4-6 annual events of  fireworks for 500-1000people outdoors. Talk about a challenge. I am trying to help many people get the most out of their systems, and sharing some experiences in regard to bass because it is different for music vs movie. Bass is even different for jazz, country, or rock. One setting does not work for everything. I am just music and movie lover. 

Here are some links to youtube videos to illustrate the topic
speaker placement video






room acoustics


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

zieglj01 said:


> If you do not want the lowest notes and you can live with around 27 to 30 hz for music,
> Then my preference would be the JBL Studio 550P subwoofer
> 
> On sale
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0TTJASSJWCVWN2ER6KAE


Nice markdown. Considering it over the BIC models, but worth so many applauding the SVS line, I may have to call svs and see if they'll swing me a deal....

Thanks everyone for your valuable input and reference info.


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## jamesfrazier (Jul 24, 2011)

Chromejob said:


> Nice markdown. Considering it over the BIC models, but worth so many applauding the SVS line, I may have to call svs and see if they'll swing me a deal.... Thanks everyone for your valuable input and reference info. // Tapatalk on iPad Mini - Misspelling courtesy of Logitech folio kybd //


I personally owned a bic f-12. Great for the money, but still a pretty bad sub compared to anything relatively higher up the chain (cheaper hsu/svs etc). I am a college student so I understand the budget aspect, but those few extra Benjamin's will add a huge amount of satisfaction to system. Be patient, talk to svs, and see what they can do for you. If they are not the way to go, they will you in the right direction. 

Good luck my friend, but be warned this hobby isn't easy and doesn't get any easier!


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

I can tell you when I first started with this hobby I did not know much. I was missing out on what a sub could do. I found this site and received excellent advise from knowledgeable people. At the time I had an old RCA sub that could not play below 35hz. I had looked into BIC and other budget subs and almost bought one of them until I realized and understood that if I was to make an investment it better be a good one since the sub was something I was going to keep for a long time. I took everyones advise here and bought the HSU VTF3 MK4 and once I had the system going I could not believe what I was missing. Later I was fortunate enough to win the Kreisel DXD 12012 sub here at the Shack. I love them both but sold the Hsu since it was not compatible with the Kreisel. My point listen to the advise here from the experts. A high end sub goes a long way and if you happen to go with SVS you will have a high end toy for many years of enjoyment.


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

Chromejob said:


> Nice markdown. Considering it over the BIC models, but worth so many applauding the SVS line, I may have to call svs and see if they'll swing me a deal....
> 
> Thanks everyone for your valuable input and reference info.


For $500 I would go with SVS or HSU

However for a limited tight budget, then the JBL 550P


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

@chromejob, In the end its your choice. Its clear that your stuck on lower quality subs if your budget is below the $400 mark. But trust us, if you dont spend the money you wont find one you will be happy with.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> @chromejob, In the end its your choice. Its clear that your stuck on lower quality subs if your budget is below the $400 mark. But trust us, if you dont spend the money you wont find one you will be happy with.


I agree completely!


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

tonyvdb said:


> Cant agree more, the SVS PB100 sub will walk circles around those you listed above. Another option is the HSU VTF2 MK4


Thanks for yours and others passionate advice. I've been seriously considering the SVS PB-1000 (not shipping for a couple of weeks) and the Hsu VTF-1 MK2. The Hsu VTF-2 MK4 looks great (goes lower), but at nearly $600 shipped (with a current price break), it might be more than I need. The VTF-1 looks like a superb bargain with the option of sealed, single port, or dual port, and all the configuration options of the VTF-2.

For anyone with experience with the Hsu subs, can you tell me if selecting more refined, quieter bass will get the response lower? I'm eying the VTF-2 due to its rated spec ability to go as low as 18 hz (wow), but I can't tell if that's with wide, "phat" bass, or tightly defined bass....


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## ronno1973 (Feb 26, 2015)

If you must buy a BIC or Klipsch try getting one used from craigslist or wherever you can pick up locally. Cheap subs can be had for about half of the price of amazon once they are used.

I never tried the BIC, but I can tell you the Polk 505 pretty much is , makes strange port noises. I decided to try some cheaper subs in living room and got a pair of the 505's used for 100$, replaced the driver in one with old pioneer speaker i had laying around for about 10 years and it sounds as good as the other one with OEM speaker, HA! They are ok for music at lower volumes i guess. I am going to try plugging the slot port on the back and see if they are any better.

My old SVS from 10 years ago is still strong, not as good as newer offering but still sounds very respectable. 

Invest a little more for a good quality sub and you will be happy for years and in the long run it will be cheaper than buying and then having to replace it. I have learned this lesson the hard way.

Good Luck!


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

*Q: BIC vs KLIPSCH vs ? Subs &lt; $500 ?*

I think I'm probably better off selling a few stocks to get Hsu subs and start with something good. I could get the NXG -500 for little less change, but then I'm setting myself up to sell it for something better "someday." With Hsu offering a little discount now, why not go the higher-end route now. 

I've read enough recommendations to use two subs for a balanced presentation, so I'm toying with the idea of a VTF-1 and a VTF-2 together. This morning I noticed that they have their MBM-12 (mid-bass module, 50Hz - 200Hz; down-facing woofer and front-firing port) on sale as well ... I'm curious about a VTF-1 tuned to focus < 60Hz and an MBM-12 to handle that up to 180 or so. These two are in the price range of a single VTF-3 or VTF15H Mk 2 (Mk 1 is marked down currently). My mains, Bose 401s, handle down to 100Hz comfortably, so perhaps this is overkill for a system with towers for mains (i.e. an MBM-12 is better suited for smaller, full-range bookshelf speakers).

Suggestions or opinions welcome. 

Another question ... I'm in a townhome with a cement slab, no wood floors ... would the downward firing VTF-1/2/3s work effectively, or should I be looking at a front-firing module?


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## jamesfrazier (Jul 24, 2011)

I have no knowledge on mid bass modules, but j honestly can't see a reason for them. What sub doesnt have mid bass? Wouldn't you want to add to all the lower to mid frequency's? Why just focus on 50hz and up? I just see money better spent on another sub.

Down firing is no issue for your floors. Bass is omnidirectional and will attempt to "fill" all available space regardless of driver orientation.

Anyway, hopefully someone chimes and makes me feel dumb by hitting me with some mid bass knowledge; we'll see. 

Also; check out Reaction Audio sub woofers. They are a new internet direct company. Best price to performance ratio you'll find out there. They are getting rave reviews over at AVS on their subs and speakers.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

IMHO. You should skip the mbm, and put that money into new towers. Then just get any "shoe" sub you want. Vtf 15h mk2 perhaps? Also, like jamesfrazier said, don't worry about down/front firing. It won't matter.


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

*Q: BIC vs KLIPSCH vs ? Subs &lt; $500 ?*

Thanks. 

Well, hello, rabbit hole. I started by entertaining the idea of a $300ish sub ... which of course led to the $500ish subs that are truly up to the job (a $300 sub that sounds like a $500 sub is a rarity, like the NXG BAS-500). I'm considering having two at some point because I've read a LOT of recommendations of that ... but I should probably rein myself in. I tried a Martin Logan Dynamo 500 this weekend to see how something like the NXG really would work with my mains. IF they're comparable, then something like a more powerful Hsu VTF truly is what the doctor ordered. 


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ah yes, the rabbit hole. I've been stuck in mine for awhile. Oh well,the company's good. I agree with dual subs, but it should be said that it is possible to get good response with one. It's overstated, and easy to say, "just get 2". Its all about placement. Lots of people don't have placement options so ironically a 2nd can help. Even in an unexpected placement. Like Jman said, 2subs doesn't guarantee good response. It only increases the potential. You still have to account for phase, and crossover etc. Imo, since you're not accustomed to using a sub, I think it'd be better to upgrade your mains, (forego mbm) and drop in a killer sub. If you have placement options, put it in the best spot, and then see if you feel like you need a 2nd.(or 3rd, or4th lol!)


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## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

*Re: Q: BIC vs KLIPSCH vs ? Subs &lt; $500 ?*

Good ideas, thanks. 


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