# iPad = uFail



## madpoet

Been eagerly awaiting the iPad launch notes, but after seeing it... wow what a disapointment. Only thing I like is the price point. No flash, no camera, no full OS, no OLED screen... this thing is just a 9.7" iPhone. Without the phone. Boooo.


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## droht

madpoet said:


> Been eagerly awaiting the iPad launch notes, but after seeing it... wow what a disapointment. Only thing I like is the price point. No flash, no camera, no full OS, no OLED screen... this thing is just a 9.7" iPhone. Without the phone. Boooo.


I agree MP, though you have to wonder if this is just a case of holding back features for v2. You know that a certain percentage of people will buy this thing out of the chute almost no matter what. Apple seems to play the game of screwing the early adopters better than anyone. If that is the case here they may be going too far.


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## Jason Brent

Yeah, it's missing some stuff I think it should've had. But I'm going to reserve final judgement until I get a chance to hold it.

Don't foresee me picking one of these up though....


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## Guest

This is more like a really big iPod Touch. The 3G might appeal to some, but the price goes up pretty quick to get there. Also, there is probably a pretty pricey monthly 3G plan to buy.


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## Jason Brent

bosco said:


> This is more like a really big iPod Touch. The 3G might appeal to some, but the price goes up pretty quick to get there. Also, there is probably a pretty pricey monthly 3G plan to buy.


AT&T is offering 2 plans for the ipad....$15/month for 250 mb, or unlimited for $30/month. No contracts for either plan


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## imported_m-fine

OLED screens still suck for outdoor use. Other than that I agree with the critique, and in general I can not figure out why I would want one. I have an iPhone and a laptop already and they do everything the pad can do better. I will not go to 3 devices and the ipad can't replace the phone or laptop so what is the point?


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## Eddie Horton

For anyone into serious home automation, though, this thing might be great. Better than a wall mounted touchscreen.


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## SomeCiscoGuy

For those who travel regularly and/or have a longer commute on the subway or L, this type of device has promise. I also see it finding a place in the education system - the ability to eventually carry all of your textbooks in a single .5" thick , 1.5lbs device when you're walking all over campus is a big potential benefit. 

I agree that missing the camera for video conferencing is an issue, but AT&Ts network needs updates/upgrades before that happens... iPad 4G . 

I don't see the OS as being a big detriment, especially from the development perspective - one code set with fairly minor tweaks (yes, I'm oversimplifying) to take advantage of the higher display capabilities and you're hitting all iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPad users.


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## corndog71

For the average person who doesn't give a **** about advanced computer features I think it's awesome.

I want one.

Just looking at all of the features I'm amazed at how flexible it is and yet how simple.

I've never owned a mac but have had a touch for the past couple of years. Ever since getting the touch I thought it was a terrific product. 

I knew if they could make a bigger version they would really have a serious product for the masses. The 3G aspect takes it to another level athough I'd be perfectly happy with just the wifi version.


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## Jason Brent

It does look pretty cool as a gadget. If I had $500-$600 just burning a hole in my pocket, I'd probably buy one. But I'd MUCH rather save it back for the iphone v.4


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## Matt34

I can see the medical field finding it very useful.


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## Jason Brent

I wonder if they'll use these for the next Star Trek...


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## Hawkeyejw

SomeCiscoGuy said:


> For those who travel regularly and/or have a longer commute on the subway or L, this type of device has promise. I also see it finding a place in the education system - the ability to eventually carry all of your textbooks in a single .5" thick , 1.5lbs device when you're walking all over campus is a big potential benefit.
> 
> I agree that missing the camera for video conferencing is an issue, but AT&Ts network needs updates/upgrades before that happens... iPad 4G .
> 
> I don't see the OS as being a big detriment, especially from the development perspective - one code set with fairly minor tweaks (yes, I'm oversimplifying) to take advantage of the higher display capabilities and you're hitting all iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPad users.


I'm with you on this one. If I were to start traveling a lot for work again, I would almost definitely get one of these. If it had the ability to at least multitask to the point of allowing me to surf the web while listening to music, I'd be sold. Even as is, I'm looking forward to holding it and trying it out. I really think this is about the user experience more than the specs, and that's where it seems like it will shine.


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## rygher3

hawkeyejw said:


> I'm with you on this one. If I were to start traveling a lot for work again, I would almost definitely get one of these. If it had the ability to at least multitask to the point of allowing me to surf the web while listening to music, I'd be sold. Even as is, I'm looking forward to holding it and trying it out. I really think this is about the user experience more than the specs, and that's where it seems like it will shine.


I'd venture to guess you could listen to music and surf the web at the same time due to the fact that you can at least do that much on an iPod Touch..I could be wrong though.


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## Jason Brent

I'm kind of an Apple junkie, so I've been following this most of the day. I seem to remember reading somewhere (might've been a gizmodo post-presentation video) that it can play music in the background.


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## corndog71

Yep, you can surf the net and listen to music at the same time on the touch.

I think it's safe to say it can be done on the ipad.


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## dvenardos

For me the iPad is perfect. I type all most all of my posts on my $300 gateway laptop which is pretty ****** at everything it does. The iPad would meet all my home surfing needs, I don't usually write essays for replies and I wouldn't have to have this stupid cord plugged into the laptop all the time. A big iPod touch is very appealing to me.


m-fine said:


> OLED screens still suck for outdoor use. Other than that I agree with the critique, and in general I can not figure out why I would want one. I have an iPhone and a laptop already and they do everything the pad can do better. I will not go to 3 devices and the ipad can't replace the phone or laptop so what is the point?


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## Jed M

Overall I think this is going to be a failure, but I do think it has some useful potential. As a Sonos owner, I would imagine it will make a great controller and I bet slingbox would be pretty slick on it too. Overall though, it just lacks way too many things to be taken seriously at this price like flash, usb, multitasking, etc. Just feels like a gimmick and not a game changer. Maybe v2.


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## madpoet

corndog71 said:


> Yep, you can surf the net and listen to music at the same time on the touch.
> 
> I think it's safe to say it can be done on the ipad.


No, actually it can't. All the hands on testers yesterday commented on this very fact. That's just silly. Trust me, I was really really wanting one. But Apple's refusal to pay the fees for Flash is ridiculous, and the limitations of this device make me think they are continuing their deliberate strategy of saving the goodies for gen 2. At the end of the day I don't see paying that much money for a 9.7" crippled web browser, which is about all I would want it for. Pity.

All that said once I have one in hand I might break


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## Hawkeyejw

I would venture to guess that the music + web browsing ability will be added before to long. I didn't realize that you could do both on the ipod Touch. 

That being said, the only remaining issue for me is lack of flash. It will be interesting to see how this is addressed. I *think* the idea is for companies to develop iPad-specific media that will basically make this a moot point, but not sure how practical that is. But as a media consumption device, I think it might suit my needs well. Having something this thin, fast, and convenient to carry with me to:

1) Surf the web + listen to music
2) Watch HD movies/shows
3) Buy/read books
4) Do light gaming
5) Organize/share photos

would be fantastic. I wouldn't grab a netbook/laptop and jump on the bus, or lay in bed to read a book, etc. And watching a movie on a plane on a seashell shaped device is a major PIA, especially when the person in front of you leans back. 

I understand all the complaints about features that are missing, how it won't replace your laptop, how it can't manage the iPhone, etc. but I don't think that's the purpose of this product. They created something that at $500 dollars is competitive with similarly sized e-readers but does so much more. If they create a tablet pc to replace your laptop, I don't think they'd target a 500-830 price point. It would probably slot in above the current laptop line up. 

All in all, it's fun to follow and it will certainly be interesting to see the reactions as these things hit the street and people actually have them in their hands with new purpose built applications on them.


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## madpoet

1) Not yet, hopefully soon
2) Only if you get them from the iTunes store or transcode them into a usable format. Their format choices are as limited as the iPhone.
3) Yes (although I think reading is going to be tough... I have a Kindle and EInk rocks for long term reading. LCD screens don't).
4) Yes, iPhone type games
5) Sort of...


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## Kevin_Wadsworth

I find the pricing pretty shrewd - create an pretty stripped down model so that everyone will call it a $500 device and will compare it to teh $300-500 segment of netbooks.

But in reality, you probably want the $700 model for the larger storage space, or the $830 model (plus $360/yr) for the 3G. Then, of course you won't watch to scratch your screen, so add in $50-100 for a nice cover since it's not a clamshell. And add another $100 for the USB and keyboard that you don't have. Not instead of the $500 pricepoint, you are lookign at a $900-1000 device. I'll take my 4 lb notebook instead for less money and more funcitonality.


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## woofersus

I'm a little unsure at this point. I know I don't personally have any use for one, but that's not necessarily the best litmus test. As Jobs said during his speech, it's not trying to be a computer or an overiszed iPod/iPhone. It's a third category in between. I think tablet devices like this will certainly take the lead over dedicated e-readers unless e-readers can get silly cheap pretty quick. (the base model anyway) Remember, this will be half the price in a couple years. The question is whether this third category will really end up being a big segment.

So who needs something in this category? (or just wants one) It's technically a portable device, but it won't fit in your pocket, so it doesn't replace smartphones or pmp's. People commuting to work that can stick it in their briefcase will like it, but that's hardly a large enough demographic considering the mass-transit-challenged nature of most of the country. Kids' backpacks? Not until it replaces textbooks, because otherwise it would be smashed to oblivion in 2 days. Could it replace textbooks? Well we're back to the e-reader thing again. Current pricing isn't going to allow that to happen, and we all know that schools won't consider something like that until the devices have already caught on and proven themselves. I can see a fantastic use in hospitals to replace patient charts and allow easier notetaking as well as have the records automatically electronically recorded. That's not going to sell 10 million units per year though. Apple isn't looking at this as a specialty device. Besides, I guarantee some other company will create a specialty device with custom software for hospitals at some point. In the end, this is a CE device, and I'm not sure I see mass appeal. I'm not going to watch movies on that at home when my TV is right there. I'm not going to use it to surf the web at home when I have devices with hardware keyboards available. It's not going to replace those devices without a full OS.

Having said all that, it's got a lot of "cool" factor. I think the lack of a full OS was a good idea actually. It's not trying to be a netbook, and as such it shouldn't feel like a crippled one. It's simpler than a full OS and probably easier for the non-computer savvy. It also reinforces the CE nature of the device. I can see some usefulness in the workplace. It's a ton cheaper than tablet pc's and if you buy it as a separate device without the need for another pc, it could be a really cool tool for notetaking at meetings, (even transcribing automatically if it has a mic?) presentations, and other information sharing activities. I'm not sure I can see that happening en mass, though, and it's only a matter of time before we start seeing netbooks with swivel hinged touchscreens, which will be more attractive for business because of the availability of the keyboard and productivity apps. Besides that, the top end model is getting into the territory of current tablet pc's.

The current uses I see just don't add up to big sales numbers except for one, and that's as an e-reader. In the end, I think Apple is banking on more and more people deciding to give up hard copy and the iPad is light years ahead of other e-readers right now. It's the e-reader plus so much more, and it has apple cache', which shouldn't be underestimated. They certainly have a history of correctly predicting these sorts of trends. The real question is whether the convergence-oriented nature of the iPad gives it a leg up on the next generation of netbooks, which will surely attempt to enter that market. (chromeOS on 3g anyone?) An interesting effect might be that the pricing of the iPad may open the door to a new generation of "premium" netbooks that venture into full-sized laptop pricing territory. That could be interesting. I still think that eventually laptops will get thinner and all have tablet functionality and all these separate devices will be unnecessary. (except for smartphones, because we'll always want something for our pockets)


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## Stereodude

It seems to me that it's a vastly inferior e-book reader. Big deal, it's got a color screen. It also has drastically inferior battery life as a result.


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## TwoTwo

Glancing through it, looks like it's a glorified Ipod Touch for double the price and increase screen size. Plus you can't stick this in your pocket. Max. 64GB? Come on Apple.


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## woofersus

Stereodude said:


> It seems to me that it's a vastly inferior e-book reader. Big deal, it's got a color screen. It also has drastically inferior battery life as a result.


I suppose that's true if all you want is text on a screen, but the most people will always want the extra bells and whistles, I think. It's supposed to go 10hrs right? I think the average person will find that acceptable. Now, if it turns out that having wifi on and having the screen at full brightness and actually using it results in a 6hr battery life, then it's a different story.

I still think if it catches on this sort of thing will ultimately replace dedicated e-readers. Lots of other dedicated devices have been replaced by more complex computing devices regardless of expense and battery life restrictions. Besides that I think this does offer new opportunities as an e-reader because of its color screen and greater connectivity. It can be a dedicated online media viewer, rather than just a player, with dedicated apps like the one demonstrated by Sports Illustrated. Other full color magazines will port too, with or without multimedia extras. All the streaming media people are crazy about in other CE devices will work especially well on this as well. Dedicated e-readers were always destined to fail, just like electronic pocket organizers. It's only a matter of time before netbooks (or tablets) get small enough and cheap enough to replace them and offer way more functionality. Soon Kindle will just be an e-book app for buying and organizing, and it will be dwarfed by itunes once apple adds e-books to it if Amazon doesn't start working that angle fast.

That's not to say that I like it though. I'm not carrying around something that size outside my house (maybe for kids on vacation in the car though) and it's not replacing either of my existing computers. I put success squarely on how useful people find it compared to existing devices, and it's not competing with pocket devices. It's a tablet with better battery life, a lower price, and less functionality, or its a netbook with a more suitable OS, but without a physical keyboard. It can't effectively compete with either until it multitasks.


Edit: I found this analysis interesting.


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## droht

The iPad is cool, to be sure, but how far can that carry it if some of the shortcomings being mentioned here are not addressed?

The Entourage Edge for $500 is interesting. Not as thin as iPad, limited memory, but would interest me way more than the iPad at this point.


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## Guest

Boy, a net book does pretty much everything the iPad does AND has an OS - for less money.


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## Jason Brent

Thinking about this some more...

You know Steve touted it as the best web experience. Really? Adobe Flash is used all over the place...in fact, if you watch the keynote speech when he sits in the chair and starts browsing, one of the first sites he goes to shows the missing plugin icon.


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## woofersus

Forgot about that. Yeah, that's a big problem for any web experience. It may be exusable on a device where web surfing is an afterthought (like my droid, for example) but not here.


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## madpoet

It will be very interesting to see both the Droid tablets and the Win7 Mobile OS that is going to be on some of the new tablet launches. I'm certainly going to wait a bit to see how they all shake out.


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## dvenardos

woofersus said:


> Dedicated e-readers were always destined to fail, just like electronic pocket organizers. It's only a matter of time before netbooks (or tablets) get small enough and cheap enough to replace them and offer way more functionality. Soon Kindle will just be an e-book app for buying and organizing, and it will be dwarfed by itunes once apple adds e-books to it if Amazon doesn't start working that angle fast.


Couldn't disagree more. A dedicated e-reader will be my next electronic purchase. For those that read a lot having your entire library at had is a huge plus. I am always reading several books at the same time and the ability to have them all at hand in one device is huge. Book lovers will never read a book on a LED display, e-ink is a must. On the Kindle you can get a huge selections of the classics for practically free, not to mention the fact that book lovers are constantly running out of bookshelf space.


Jason said:


> Thinking about this some more...
> 
> You know Steve touted it as the best web experience. Really? Adobe Flash is used all over the place...in fact, if you watch the keynote speech when he sits in the chair and starts browsing, one of the first sites he goes to shows the missing plugin icon.


No flash is a deal breaker. They have to add flash support, this must come.


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## Jason Brent

The lack of Flash is the big topic on this device. If you watch the promotional video on Apple's website, it looks like it does have Flash when it is showing web pages, but in the keynote speech, it clearly is missing.

So did apple doctor the video on their site? Hmmmm......not good.

link


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## woofersus

dvenardos said:


> Couldn't disagree more. A dedicated e-reader will be my next electronic purchase. For those that read a lot having your entire library at had is a huge plus. I am always reading several books at the same time and the ability to have them all at hand in one device is huge. Book lovers will never read a book on a LED display, e-ink is a must. On the Kindle you can get a huge selections of the classics for practically free, not to mention the fact that book lovers are constantly running out of bookshelf space.


I think the time may not be yet, but history would tell us that it's inevitable for a more complex device to consolidate the functions of the lesser ones. I'm still not a fan of the iPad in it's current form at it's current price, but I think the evolution of netbooks will be such that they become tablets with or without a keyboard, and they will replace a host of CE devices once they become cheap enough. They will also make ultra-portables obsolete because we won't need to strip them down to make them portable, and we'll have our phones for pocketable computers. I can't help but believe e-books will migrate to that platform.

I could be wrong of course. It's been known to happen. :sly:


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## woofersus

Jason said:


> The lack of Flash is the big topic on this device. If you watch the promotional video on Apple's website, it looks like it does have Flash when it is showing web pages, but in the keynote speech, it clearly is missing.
> 
> So did apple doctor the video on their site? Hmmmm......not good.
> 
> link


Not that I would put that past Apple, but it's rumored that the next software release for the iphone would add flash, and if so the ipad would get it too. Maybe it was a beta release?


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## Jason Brent

woofersus said:


> Not that I would put that past Apple, but it's rumored that the next software release for the iphone would add flash, and if so the ipad would get it too. Maybe it was a beta release?


Well, actually there have been small disclaimers on previous promotional videos that state images have been altered:scratchchin:

...although I didn't see one on the ipad video that they have now.


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## keenween

peewee got one!


http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/f7a03edbd7/pee-wee-gets-an-ipad


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## Jason Brent

keenween said:


> peewee got one!
> 
> 
> http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/f7a03edbd7/pee-wee-gets-an-ipad


lol....

MadTV has their version, too.....

iPad


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## monkeypimp

woofersus said:


> Not that I would put that past Apple, but it's rumored that the next software release for the iphone would add flash, and if so the ipad would get it too. Maybe it was a beta release?


See the article here....Flash won't be on their devices for in the foreseeable future.

[URL="http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10443465-17.html"]http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10443465-17.html[/URL]


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## Jason Brent

Lame....



> macrumors has heard from a source that the new york times itself generated high-resolution images of several of its pages, including flash and ad content, in order to improve the look of the pages for apple's use in ipad marketing materials.


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## SoCalWJS

Why do I think Apple will sell it "as is" for the first 6-12 months, and all the bleeding edge techies will jump on it. Decent sales and $$.

A new version will then be released with many of the desired extra features on it. Apple rakes in mega $$, and the early adopters pitch a b!tch.

Sound familiar?oke:


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## dvenardos

I think, however, that reading a book is different. No one really enjoys spending hours in front of an LED display. When the time comes that you can toggle between lit and unlit that will be the demise of the ereader. The iPad is a great device for my current needs (cheap laptop, desktops, no cellphone or iphone touch) but I would NOT use it as an ereader, no way...


woofersus said:


> I think the time may not be yet, but history would tell us that it's inevitable for a more complex device to consolidate the functions of the lesser ones. I'm still not a fan of the iPad in it's current form at it's current price, but I think the evolution of netbooks will be such that they become tablets with or without a keyboard, and they will replace a host of CE devices once they become cheap enough. They will also make ultra-portables obsolete because we won't need to strip them down to make them portable, and we'll have our phones for pocketable computers. I can't help but believe e-books will migrate to that platform.
> 
> I could be wrong of course. It's been known to happen. :sly:


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## Jason Brent

dvenardos said:


> When the time comes that you can toggle between lit and unlit that will be the demise of the ereader.


Already have it. 









Pixel Qi


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## dvenardos

Sweet. :thumbsup:
Looks like 2011 will be my ereader/portable gadget purchase.


Jason said:


> Already have it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pixel Qi


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## Jed M

Jason said:


> Already have it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pixel Qi


Yeah, that right there is the future of portable devices and computers. iPad is just swimming in too crowded waters right now to stand out. There really is nothing revolutionary about their product, nor have they introduced a new type of device (even though they claim they have). If apple was the first to display a screen like Jason linked to then I would rightfully say they have revolutionized the game, but as it stands it seems like another tablet that nobody knows what to do with outside of the medical and shipping industries.


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## dvenardos

This looks pretty good:
http://www.archos.com/products/imt/archos_5it/index.html?country=us&lang=en&p=guidedtour


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## Jason Brent

dvenardos said:


> This looks pretty good:
> http://www.archos.com/products/imt/archos_5it/index.html?country=us&lang=en&p=guidedtour


That does look interesting.....though a little small maybe.

Put that Pixel Qi screen and flash support in the iPad, then we're talking.

Anybody following the Apple saga knows that there is a battle just starting to heat up between Apple and Google. IMO, Apple really put out a weak play with the deficiencies of the iPad, leaving the door wide open for Google to further encroach on apple's territory....put Android on the right hardware and it could really hurt the ipad.

As much as I like Apple (love my macbook), Google represents a serious threat to Apple and iTunes. Google is starting to get into the movie delivery business, and Google already controls searching.....it would be totally natural to take advantage of their searching monopoly to link to their movie delivery services. With iTunes, you have to open a client program to search. With Google, you just use your browser that's already open.

Apple realizes this, and they are making efforts to move to a 'cloud' experience. I think (hope) we see some neat stuff come out of their recent acquisition of Lala.


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## dvenardos

Jason said:


> Put that Pixel Qi screen and flash support in the iPad, then we're talking.


A true ereader plus iphone apps and web, that would be a no brainer for me. :yes:


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## Jason Brent

lol...

Apple changed the video on their website to correctly show the iPad can't do Flash....

from digg:

here's what some popular sites look like on 'the best way to experience the web'


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## corndog71

eh,

there's maybe 1 or 2 sites I go to that use flash. And they're non essential so I can always use my laptop for them. The vast majority of sites I surf at show up just fine on my Touch.

I often use my Touch for catching up on emails or checking my facebook as well as of course listening to music. But the screen is so small that it makes viewing a pain. I think the iPad would be perfect for me. Not to mention I might be more inclined to buy tv shows off of itunes and watch them while I ride the train to and from work. I could also see using it to read books as well.

Plus with the whole 3G internet capability, I could get the same functionality as the iphone (minus the phone and camera) but without a contract to deal with. Big plus for me there! 

Yeah, the iPad is essentially just a bigger Touch. But that is exactly why I like it.


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## Jason Brent

corndog71 said:


> Plus with the whole 3G internet capability, I could get the same functionality as the iphone (minus the phone and camera) but without a contract to deal with. Big plus for me there!


Actually, apple and at&t will be allowing voip apps, so you would have phone capability with a headset....


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## dvenardos

Looks like there is going to be a bunch of tablets and notebooks using the PixelQi this year.
http://gizmodo.com/5443895/e+ink-is-dead-pixel-qis-amazing-transflective-lcd-just-killed-it
http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/notion-ink-adam-prototype-hands-on-it-looks-nothing-like-the-re/
http://www.popsci.com/gadgets/article/2010-01/pixel-qi-lcd-screen-could-finally-kill-paper-forever


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## Stereodude

How the iPad came to be:


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## Jon Liu

Pretty much!!


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## adobo

I dunno. 

If someone asked me if I would be willing to pay $500 for an improved iPod roughly the size of a legal pad, I would say "absolutely."

If someone asked me if I would be willing to pay more for an eReader that has web browsing, email, movie watching capabilities than what a Kindle goes for, I would say, "only if it syncs with my current media library."

To me, the iPad is only disappointing if you wanted Apple to release a netbook - an appliace that is essentially a laptop but crappier. Apple has always said that they could not build an appliance for netbook type money that would deliver the user experience they like to provide. I already have two work issued mid end ultra portable laptops. They both suck. Real bad. I can't even begin to imagine how sucky a $500 netbook must be.

If you ask Apple to give you an appliance that has USB, a video camera, enough resources to run a full OS, etc. - by the time you add up all the costs, it will wind up costing more than a Macbook. Then you will have the other complaints. "It's like a Macbook except it costs more and doesn't even come with its own keyboard."


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## madpoet

HP's 311 is less than $500, has an 11" screenm runs Win7, and is very good


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## adobo

madpoet said:


> HP's 311 is less than $500, has an 11" screenm runs Win7, and is very good


Then HP has a better product for $500 than Dell or Toshiba do for $1500.


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## imported_m-fine

adobo said:


> I dunno.
> 
> If someone asked me if I would be willing to pay $500 for an improved iPod roughly the size of a legal pad, I would say "absolutely."
> 
> If someone asked me if I would be willing to pay more for an eReader that has web browsing, email, movie watching capabilities than what a Kindle goes for, I would say, "only if it syncs with my current media library."
> 
> To me, the iPad is only disappointing if you wanted Apple to release a netbook - an appliace that is essentially a laptop but crappier. Apple has always said that they could not build an appliance for netbook type money that would deliver the user experience they like to provide. I already have two work issued mid end ultra portable laptops. They both suck. Real bad. I can't even begin to imagine how sucky a $500 netbook must be.
> 
> If you ask Apple to give you an appliance that has USB, a video camera, enough resources to run a full OS, etc. - by the time you add up all the costs, it will wind up costing more than a Macbook. Then you will have the other complaints. "It's like a Macbook except it costs more and doesn't even come with its own keyboard."


If they can give you USB and an SD card reader in stupid little dock port adapters, they could have built both in, and we are talking maybe $1 more to do so. The web cam a couple bucks more. USB, SD slot, webcam on front, 5+MP camera with LED flash on back...$10 MAX!

Enabling mutitasking...free.

This gen 1 is so disappointing because they fell short over such cheap and easy things. Hopefully sales will fall off the cliff after the fanboi crowd gets theirs, and they will actually listen to their customers for a change and build a device that can do things the iphone can't. As of now, the iPhone is actually the more capable device, with screen size the only place the ipad wins.


----------



## adobo

m-fine said:


> If they can give you USB and an SD card reader in stupid little dock port adapters, they could have built both in, and we are talking maybe $1 more to do so. The web cam a couple bucks more. USB, SD slot, webcam on front, 5+MP camera with LED flash on back...$10 MAX!
> 
> Enabling mutitasking...free.
> 
> This gen 1 is so disappointing because they fell short over such cheap and easy things. Hopefully sales will fall off the cliff after the fanboi crowd gets theirs, and they will actually listen to their customers for a change and build a device that can do things the iphone can't. As of now, the iPhone is actually the more capable device, with screen size the only place the ipad wins.


Enabling multi tasking is free. Having sufficient resources (processing power, memory, swap space, whatever) such that multi tasking is actually pleasant is not free. Remember, to go from 16gig of storage to 64 gig of storage already bumps the price up by $200. Imagine if you were asking for 160gig of storage with twice the processing power. 

Personally, I would rather have less features that work well than more features that are all mediocre. For those who have feature-itis, there are always windows based solutions to choose from.


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## imported_m-fine

adobo said:


> Enabling multi tasking is free. Having sufficient resources (processing power, memory, swap space, whatever) such that multi tasking is actually pleasant is not free. Remember, to go from 16gig of storage to 64 gig of storage already bumps the price up by $200. Imagine if you were asking for 160gig of storage with twice the processing power.
> 
> Personally, I would rather have less features that work well than more features that are all mediocre. For those who have feature-itis, there are always windows based solutions to choose from.
> .


The processing power is definitely already there, and as long as it has the same RAM or more than the iPhone 3GS, there is enough RAM to run 2-5 apps, as long as those apps could run on a iPhone 2g and 3G as well as all but the newest touches. Sorry, but the arguments against multitasking are half truths and **. Yes multitasking can get painful on a jailbroken iphone 3G (not 3GS) but that is because it only has about 30 mb of ram after overhead. The 3GS adds another 128 so it has about 5X the free RAM of the 3G. The iPad BETTER have at least the 256 mb the 3GS comes with or it will be an even bigger joke than it already is. In short, it should be able to multitask several apps and still beat the performance of an iphone 3g running a single app, all for not a penny more in hardware costs.

By the way check out what that extra flash space costs Apple, let alone what you could buy it for retail. The $200 is a ripoff.


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## adobo

m-fine said:


> The processing power is definitely already there, and as long as it has the same RAM or more than the iPhone 3GS, there is enough RAM to run 2-5 apps, as long as those apps could run on a iPhone 2g and 3G as well as all but the newest touches. Sorry, but the arguments are ** against multitasking are half truths and **. Yes multitasking can get painful on a jailbroken iphone 3G (not 3GS) but that is because it only has about 30 mb of ram after overhead. The 3GS adds another 128 so it has about 5X the free RAM of the 3G. The iPad BETTER have at least the 256 mb the 3GS comes with or it will be an even bigger joke than it already is. In short, it should be able to multitask several apps and still beat the performance of an iphone 3g running a single app, all for not a penny more in hardware costs.


Who is interested in a device that barely beats the performance of an iphone 3g or even 3gs? I have an iPhone 3gs and though its much faster than iPhone v1, it is still significantly slower than any of my macs or pcs for even basic things like surfing the web. 

Most if not all of us have multi tasking experience based on late generation pcs and macs. Would any of us really be using iPod/iPhone performance as the measuring stick?

If they are going to enable multi tasking then I want it such that it works fast. I want it such that I can have multiple browsers open as I wait for content to download from hulu or netflix. I want it such that it can download a high def movie from iTunes store while watching another high def movie. I doubt you could do that with less than 2 gig of ram. 

Its hard to get decent performance while surfing the web on a 2 year old HP Pc (owned by a relateive)with 1 gig of ram. How would you download and watch high definition content on such a thing? How would you play around with your pictures? How would you edit image intensive documents and presentations? And on top of that, you want it to multi task? It's gonna take more than 256megs of ram, don't you think?

There are plenty of $500 devices packed with all kinds of cheap components that multi task in a mediocre if not ****** way. Do we really need another one?


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## woofersus

m-fine said:


> The processing power is definitely already there, and as long as it has the same RAM or more than the iPhone 3GS, there is enough RAM to run 2-5 apps, as long as those apps could run on a iPhone 2g and 3G as well as all but the newest touches. Sorry, but the arguments against multitasking are half truths and **. Yes multitasking can get painful on a jailbroken iphone 3G (not 3GS) but that is because it only has about 30 mb of ram after overhead. The 3GS adds another 128 so it has about 5X the free RAM of the 3G. The iPad BETTER have at least the 256 mb the 3GS comes with or it will be an even bigger joke than it already is. In short, it should be able to multitask several apps and still beat the performance of an iphone 3g running a single app, all for not a penny more in hardware costs.
> 
> By the way check out what that extra flash space costs Apple, let alone what you could buy it for retail. The $200 is a ripoff.



This is all true, although I'll give them a pass on the "ripoff" thing. They can sell it for whatever they want. I just don't think it will that well. The reality is that they didn't put much new technology into this. It's a new form facter and that's it. As I've said, the dedicated OS could be a great thing. It would differentiate, make it different than every other netbook, and potentially be an easier/better experience for those not looking to do heavy duty computing. Unfortunately, Apple didn't do any tweaking at all. They didn't put a specialized dedicated OS on it, they just ported the existing OS they use for small devices. Not multitasking is a drawback to the iphone too, but here it's just unacceptable. The A4 processor in the ipad has an ARM cortex-a9 core, so it should be pretty comparable to the processor in the Google Nexus 1, which is plenty powerful enough to multitask. My slower Droid does it just fine.

There are only two possibilities to the omission. 1, it's an intentional decision, based on the idea that customers don't need or want it that much, or 2. the ipod touch and iphone are already cash cows and they just weren't willing to put the money into rewriting the OS until they really have to. The ipad will initially be peanuts in terms of revenue compared to the two smaller devices. I'd say its the latter is more likely although the first is possible. Frankly, Apple's operating systems have never been designed with multitasking as a primary design objective.

With regards to the oversized ipod thing, I suspect that's kind of what Apple was going for, actually. It adds other functionality, but it's not trying to be a netbook. My argument is just that the time where netbooks can duplicate the form factor and convenience with greater capabilities and at a similar or lower price is coming very soon. 12-18 months I'd guess. Cheaper with similar or greater capabilities is to be expected, given that Apple products always come with a price premium, but I think people will gravitate toward the more capable devices because the ipad doesn't appeal to a large enough demographic alone. I think Apple should have focused on turning the Macbook Air into a tablet (swivel screen, physical keyboard) and worked on a dedicated touch interface to run overtop of OSX like many smartphones do and what windows media center does to turn a pc in to a CE device. Sure it would have been more expensive, but that's ok for Apple. It would have a market and a myriad of potential uses. As the ipad is, it only has a couple of viable uses. Play back or stream media, and read ebooks. (best web browsing experience without flash? yeah right)


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## adobo

woofersus said:


> I think Apple should have focused on turning the Macbook Air into a tablet (swivel screen, physical keyboard) and worked on a dedicated touch interface to run overtop of OSX like many smartphones do and what windows media center does to turn a pc in to a CE device. Sure it would have been more expensive, but that's ok for Apple.


Bingo.

But that is not a $500 product. And it would cannibalize business from their other offerings. 

You can have cheap, you can have good and you can have fast. But not all three at the same time.


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## corndog71

Multitasking is another one of those features that I don't really care about with one exception. That's being able to play music on top of doing every other app. That's all of the multitasking I need.

If I really want to multitask, then that's what my primary computer is for. Going without that capability is a compromise I can live with. 

I read a lot about all of these disappointed expectations and most of it seems to come from everyone who doesn't like Apple to begin with. 

Or it's from people who like Apple a little but still wish they were more pc-ish. Or they hate that Apple does what it wants and sets limits and people can be so spoiled about what they want and think they deserve to get.

Whatever. You either get what they have to offer or you get something else.
Live and let live.


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## Stereodude

adobo said:


> There are plenty of $500 devices packed with all kinds of cheap components that multi task in a mediocre if not ****** way. Do we really need another one?


Funny how there are also lots of $500 devices that multi task just fine. Apple just isn't capable of making one.


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## adobo

Stereodude said:


> Funny how there are also lots of $500 devices that multi task just fine. Apple just isn't capable of making one.


With a multi-touch screen and components that don't feel like parts rejects from a toy factory?


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## Jason Brent

I'm actually fine with limited multitasking on a device like this. This can be further mitigated by speeding up app launch times.

To me, this is going to be used primarily as a web browsing device, and they either need flash support, or need to get everybody off flash to html5. I'd prefer html5, cause it doesn't tax the cpu as bad.


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## dvenardos

Agreed, it really seems to be the mac versus pc crowd argument. Windows is a feature rich, gadget environment that is not user friendly, aesthetically pleasing, or stable. Yeah, yeah, here comes the XP is rock solid stable and I have been running it on xyz. But the fact is for the average person, the mac platform is easier to maintain. Apple controls the hardware and software therefore it easier to have a more stable environment. The other thing that makes windows unstable is microsoft's only unique invention, the registry. Here is a brilliant idea, lets make the stability of the OS dependent on a database for which there is not built in maintenance. Ask any DBA how long a database should run without proper maintenance on said database?

I said before, enable flash and the iPad is a perfect device for me and the kids to share. iPod games and web browsing with long batter life and nice form factor. Works for me, but I really like the Apple OS even if I am not a fan of the hardware choices.


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## imported_m-fine

This is definitely not a mac vs PC thing. There are plenty of Apple fans who were dissapointed as well. I am a big iphone fan myself, but I think this larger version for more money but with less capability is a POS. 

At least limited mutitasking is a huge need to be competitive. If I am listening to music or surfing the web or reading an ebook, I do not want to close that app to check email or text/IM. I don't want to close whatever app I am in to check my calendar. I want to be able to have Pandora run while I do just about anything else. This is becoming basic functionality on pocket/phone devices, and is absolutely manditory in a tablet type device if you want mass market acceptance.

"You can have cheap, you can have good and you can have fast. But not all three at the same time."

Looks like we got none. It seems like the iPad was rushed to market but it has supposedly been in development for quite some time, so no "fast." Compared to the iPhone and iPad touch, or compared to a netbook, either way, what you are getting is not "good" and I am not sure it even rates as fair. External adapters for USB and SD cards in 2010? No camera capability, not even the level of a $15 camera phone? No flash support, no multitasking, limited filesystem, apps designed for another form factor, etc.? I would say the capabilities for anythig bigger than a pocket device are pretty poor, worse than tablets from 5+ years ago. So that leaves price. $499 for the stripped version, close to $1000 for one that actually has enough storage for an HD movie plus a 3G connection (plus monthly fees that push you well over a grand). Sorry, the iPad is hardly cheap, I would say it is very expensive compared to the Touch, iPhone, netbooks, or dedicated eReaders. I am not sure what it is supposed to compete with that it is "cheap" in relation to. Seriously, I think it fails on all three points, and not by a little bit.


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## corndog71

Less capable than your iphone? Oh right, you can't make phone calls on it or take pictures/video with it. It does EVERYTHING ELSE the iphone does and many things it will do better thanks to more visual real estate but wait, no, it's a POS.

Adjust your expectations. It doesn't want to compete with netbooks, laptops, or tablets. It's doing it's own thing. 

When the touch came out it did everything I wanted and more. Sure it had limiations but after living with it for a while I didn't mind the limitations. If anything it made it easier to work with. And the $200+ I paid for it eventually was justified. The 3G aspect and bigger screen of the ipad also makes that worth the added cost.

Crying about what it doesn't do is like crying about what your woman won't do.


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## madpoet

But here's the thing... what is the purpose of the iPad? Web browser? Well, sure but it's crippled in functionality and you have to pay for an extra data plan. eReader? Ok, but it's got an LCD screen so expect real eye fatigue compared to real eReaders. Entertainment device? Ok, but it won't handle very many codecs to actualy play back the media and you're going to spend a lot of time ripping your media to the right format.

Please understand I don't want a Netbook... I have one that I mod'd to have a touchscreen already  I am also not an Apple basher. I love my iPhone 3GS with a passion. But this device was hyped up by Apple as world changing, and so far it's made most of us just yawn. Maybe time (and the 2nd-3rd gen devices) will prove me wrong. But for right now, I'll take my uber-mod'd MSI Wind and be happy. Oh yeah, and it's a Hackintosh


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## woofersus

corndog71 said:


> Less capable than your iphone? Oh right, you can't make phone calls on it or take pictures/video with it. It does EVERYTHING ELSE the iphone does and many things it will do better thanks to more visual real estate but wait, no, it's a POS.
> 
> Adjust your expectations. It doesn't want to compete with netbooks, laptops, or tablets. It's doing it's own thing.
> 
> When the touch came out it did everything I wanted and more. Sure it had limiations but after living with it for a while I didn't mind the limitations. If anything it made it easier to work with. And the $200+ I paid for it eventually was justified. The 3G aspect and bigger screen of the ipad also makes that worth the added cost.
> 
> Crying about what it doesn't do is like crying about what your woman won't do.


I don't think it's so much being upset that it won't do xyz but pointing out the considerations that would go into a purchase decision and where it comes up short against other places to put money. It's only natural to compare features against the alternatives to the ipad. Don't get me wrong, here. I'm not personally offended by it or anything. I'm just over-analyzing the potential market for the device and Apple's decisions in creating something they obviously hope will find a lot of interested people. I'm a marketing guy. I can't help myself.

I'll be up-front here. I'm a PC guy. All the reasons are another topic for another thread, but I will say that I'm not closed off to Mac and even got one for my mother-in-law because I thought that's what would meet her needs best. The Mac/PC thing isn't what this is about.

Of course it will be touch to gauge the _actual_ user experience until some people have them in their hands. The app store is a huge wildcard there. To this point we're really just debating features/price of this device vs. features/price of several other things.


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## corndog71

Does the lack of flash support really make that much difference? Most of the flash I see is in the form of advertising which I could care less about.

You only have to pay extra if you want more than the wifi functionality. I have wifi at home and wouldn't need the 3G there. But if I want to take it with on a road trip the 3G option is there to serve for a trifling $15 bucks.

At home I can definitely see using the ipad as a large remote for a itunes-based music server tied into my stereo. I've been looking at doing that with a mac mini sometime in the future. Unless I buy a track off of itunes I use apple lossless for all of my ripped music. The ipad size makes a huge difference in being able to easily peruse my music collection.

I get a hell of a lot more eye-strain reading my dinky little Touch. The larger screen is just a huge welcome to my eyes. 

I get what you're saying about Apple's (and it's fanboy's) propensity to hype the latest product. And perhaps Apple overshot it's marketing load on the ipad. But I feel there is a huge potential for this device to succeed given a chance. 

For many it may not provide enough. But there's a lot of luddites out there that want something simple that works. There's a lot of people that really are intimidated by computers and the learning curve on their uses. I think for those kind of people the ipad gets them the simple functionality in a device that's portable and lightweight.

****, I'm one of them! All I use my computer for is surfing, email, and organizing music and pictures. 

Can you tell I'm pretty much sold on it?:yes:


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## Stereodude

dvenardos said:


> Windows is a feature rich, gadget environment that is not user friendly, aesthetically pleasing, or stable.


I didn't realize we had gone back to the late 90's. :shiftyeyes:


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## Stereodude

corndog71 said:


> Can you tell I'm pretty much sold on it?:yes:


Good, join your fellow lemmings and buy one. Just don't try to tell the rest of us not in the RDF how awesome it is. :cloud9:


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## corndog71

Stereodude said:


> Good, join your fellow lemmings and buy one. Just don't try to tell the rest of us not in the RDF how awesome it is. :cloud9:


Why not? Like you wouldn't do the same thing about whatever new speaker or gadget or toy you're into.

And really that's all any of this stuff is. An expensive toy.


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## Stereodude

corndog71 said:


> Why not? Like you wouldn't do the same thing about whatever new speaker or gadget or toy you're into.


Just because you like the smell of the turd Apple is selling, doesn't mean that if you post enough you'll be able to convince the rest of us it smells like roses.

I don't do the same thing. Perhaps you can find all the threads started by me on this forum proselytizing others on the wonders of whatever new gadget or toy I just bought.


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## adobo

madpoet said:


> But here's the thing... what is the purpose of the iPad? Web browser? Well, sure but it's crippled in functionality and you have to pay for an extra data plan. eReader? Ok, but it's got an LCD screen so expect real eye fatigue compared to real eReaders. Entertainment device? Ok, but it won't handle very many codecs to actualy play back the media and you're going to spend a lot of time ripping your media to the right format.
> 
> Please understand I don't want a Netbook... I have one that I mod'd to have a touchscreen already  I am also not an Apple basher. I love my iPhone 3GS with a passion. But this device was hyped up by Apple as world changing, and so far it's made most of us just yawn. Maybe time (and the 2nd-3rd gen devices) will prove me wrong. But for right now, I'll take my uber-mod'd MSI Wind and be happy. Oh yeah, and it's a Hackintosh


You are not an Apple basher but you paint a distorted picture about what you perceive are deficiencies. Specifically:
- what device can you buy today doesn't need a data plan to surf the web if you are not on wifi or plugged in directly into the network? 
-And Apple's approach to media has always centered around iTunes. Or at least that has been the case since I have been using Apple products. For any content that you want to buy or rent, they can deliver via iTunes store. No ripping required. When you say "you have to spend a lot of time ripping.." you are talking about old content that you own already. And for most of us, the DVDs that we already owned and have watched once pretty much sit around collecting dust. In my case, of the small fraction of movies that I own that I want regular access too (kids movies) have already been ripped and uploaded to iTunes. This had nothing to do with iPad and everything to do with convenience.
- Unless you have spent even a few minutes interacting with an iPad, you really can't say with any level of certainty whether or not it is a capable eReader.

Not liking Apple's solutions to these issues is fine but it would be useful if you at least were fair with you assessment and criticism.


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## adobo

Stereodude said:


> Just because you like the smell of the turd Apple is selling, doesn't mean that if you post enough you'll be able to convince the rest of us it smells like roses.
> 
> I don't do the same thing. Perhaps you can find all the threads started by me on this forum proselytizing others on the wonders of whatever new gadget or toy I just bought.


Its just a thread on forum. No need to lash out at people.


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## corndog71

That's fine. You and I are different that way. No biggie. 

I will no longer try to convince you how cool and interesting the ipad is.

I might peak the interest in someone else though. And if it makes them happy, then I'm happy.:biglaugh:

I just want to share the love and give a little counter balance to all of the hate.:toast:


----------



## adobo

m-fine said:


> "You can have cheap, you can have good and you can have fast. But not all three at the same time."
> 
> Looks like we got none. It seems like the iPad was rushed to market but it has supposedly been in development for quite some time, so no "fast." Compared to the iPhone and iPad touch, or compared to a netbook, either way, what you are getting is not "good" and I am not sure it even rates as fair. External adapters for USB and SD cards in 2010? No camera capability, not even the level of a $15 camera phone? No flash support, no multitasking, limited filesystem, apps designed for another form factor, etc.? I would say the capabilities for anythig bigger than a pocket device are pretty poor, worse than tablets from 5+ years ago. So that leaves price. $499 for the stripped version, close to $1000 for one that actually has enough storage for an HD movie plus a 3G connection (plus monthly fees that push you well over a grand). Sorry, the iPad is hardly cheap, I would say it is very expensive compared to the Touch, iPhone, netbooks, or dedicated eReaders. I am not sure what it is supposed to compete with that it is "cheap" in relation to. Seriously, I think it fails on all three points, and not by a little bit.


A camera equal to one that you get from a cheap cell phone? Really? Wouldn't you pay extra to not have the camera if what they would be using is some cheap POS? And equating an iPod to an iPad. Isn't that absurd in the same way that equating a 20" t.v. to a 60" t.v. is absurd? 

Regarding the rest of the functionality you are talking about... Apple don't make cheap stuff. That's just the way it is. They offer a device that does all that other stuff you are talking about sans 3G. It's called a Macbook. And it costs one grand. 

They could have delivered all the capabilities of a Macbook in a tablet format with a touchscreen but then all the internet bickering would have been around how expensive the device is.


----------



## dvenardos

After three times of my Vista laptop failing to load SP2 I have given up on trying to install it and all of the multi-weekly updates which have just slowed it down. It used to run acceptably but now it pisses me off everytime I use it because it is so god **** slow. I can't load XP on it because the drivers aren't available (couple of threads on the internet about the attempt) and I sure as hell aren't going to go buy a new OS because the one that it shipped with is so ****** and I really don't feel like going through all the troubleshooting for what is basically used only for web surfing. Ubuntu is going back on this laptop as soon as I get some free time. I put Vista back on the machine because of some issues that I had with Ubuntu and I thought I would give Vista a try, but the issues weren't nearly as bad as Vista and it was an order of magnitude faster. Doesn't feel much different to me than 1990, other than linux continues to improve and Microsoft just gets worse. XP isn't great as an OS, but it isn't terrible either.


Stereodude said:


> I didn't realize we had gone back to the late 90's. :shiftyeyes:


----------



## dvenardos

I agree with all of those points, it definitely isn't a world changer. I was expecting a $1,200 device from Apple and haven't been happy with any of my $500 options, so I was pleasantly surprised and was like, "Hey, I might even buy that".


madpoet said:


> But here's the thing... what is the purpose of the iPad? Web browser? Well, sure but it's crippled in functionality and you have to pay for an extra data plan. eReader? Ok, but it's got an LCD screen so expect real eye fatigue compared to real eReaders. Entertainment device? Ok, but it won't handle very many codecs to actualy play back the media and you're going to spend a lot of time ripping your media to the right format.
> 
> Please understand I don't want a Netbook... I have one that I mod'd to have a touchscreen already  I am also not an Apple basher. I love my iPhone 3GS with a passion. But this device was hyped up by Apple as world changing, and so far it's made most of us just yawn. Maybe time (and the 2nd-3rd gen devices) will prove me wrong. But for right now, I'll take my uber-mod'd MSI Wind and be happy. Oh yeah, and it's a Hackintosh


----------



## dvenardos

Did I miss the thread title here? :scratchchin:


Stereodude said:


> I don't do the same thing. Perhaps you can find all the threads started by me on this forum proselytizing others on the wonders of whatever new gadget or toy I just bought.


----------



## madpoet

adobo said:


> You are not an Apple basher but you paint a distorted picture about what you perceive are deficiencies. Specifically:
> - what device can you buy today doesn't need a data plan to surf the web if you are not on wifi or plugged in directly into the network?
> 
> - Unless you have spent even a few minutes interacting with an iPad, you really can't say with any level of certainty whether or not it is a capable eReader.
> 
> Not liking Apple's solutions to these issues is fine but it would be useful if you at least were fair with you assessment and criticism.


I'll answer those 2 since they are the easiest  On the first point, I have an iPhone with a data plan that I can tether to any Windows or Mac PC. So now I'm paying for a data plan for the iPhone (which you HAVE to pay for if you have an iPhone) and a data plan for the iPad, since I won't be able to tether my iPhone to it without some serious hacking. That's why I was saying yet another data plan.

On the eReader front, I spend a LOT of time reading on eReaders and I've owned and reviewed tons. I can tell you unequivocally that the E-Ink readers are infinitely easier on the eyes than an LCD screen. It's just a simple fact. If you are a light reader I am sure the LCD won't bother you as much, but if you are a moderate to heavy reader it is easy to notice the difference in eye strain.

I don't quite understand how I'm not being "fair" to Apple on these points.


----------



## adobo

madpoet said:


> I'll answer those 2 since they are the easiest  On the first point, I have an iPhone with a data plan that I can tether to any Windows or Mac PC. So now I'm paying for a data plan for the iPhone (which you HAVE to pay for if you have an iPhone) and a data plan for the iPad, since I won't be able to tether my iPhone to it without some serious hacking. That's why I was saying yet another data plan.
> 
> On the eReader front, I spend a LOT of time reading on eReaders and I've owned and reviewed tons. I can tell you unequivocally that the E-Ink readers are infinitely easier on the eyes than an LCD screen. It's just a simple fact. If you are a light reader I am sure the LCD won't bother you as much, but if you are a moderate to heavy reader it is easy to notice the difference in eye strain.
> 
> I don't quite understand how I'm not being "fair" to Apple on these points.


Your laptops don't get 3g access for free today. You are stealing access by jailbreaking your iPhone to enable tethering. Nothing on AT&T's data plans indicate that part of the service they provide for your iPhone includes access for other devices. 

Therefore, one of your primary complaints is that you cannot continue to cheat AT&T for free access from an iPad and you say that this is a problem with an iPad. Maybe my definition of fair is screwed up.

On your second point, you have spent considerable time on an iPad as an eReader or have access to case studies that indicate that an iPad is not suitable anything more than light reading, correct?


----------



## madpoet

Dude... get your Apple Fanboi tinfoil hat and go hang with all your compatriots at the alter of the all-powerful Steve  Since I work for a major corporation and have coporate level iPhone plans guess what.. no hacking involved. And since I've worked for 20 years on computers and had various eReaders for probably the last 5 years, I think I know pretty well the difference between an LCD screen and an E-Ink screen. If you think Apple has invented some magic pixie dust LCD screen that won't have all the same long-term reading issues as EVERY OTHER LCD screen, then there's really no point in us talking anymore. Seriously, am I hurting your Apple stock or something? Because you sure seem combative about this...


----------



## rseynaev

Hitler apparently is not happy with the iPad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQnT0zp8Ya4


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## dvenardos

Dude, no way can you read a book on a backlit LCD. If they had a version with the Pixel Qi screen for the same cost I would be all over it, but no way am I going to cozy up with a LCD to read a book. Jobs has incorrectly stated that eReaders are a non-starter, so until he changes his mind the iPad isn't going to be designed as a dedicated eReader.


adobo said:


> On your second point, you have spent considerable time on an iPad as an eReader or have access to case studies that indicate that an iPad is not suitable anything more than light reading, correct?


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## imported_m-fine

How important is flash? I looked at the websites my kids use (way too much). They are 7 and 4 and both spend time on educational sites, and some toy/game sites. Guess what, 100% of what they do on the web requires flash. Yes, 100%, and unlike Hulu or a select few major sites, html5 is not going to happen in the near future. So if I want a tablet I can hand to the kids in the car or while waiting for something, the iPad is a nonstarter.


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## imported_m-fine

corndog71 said:


> Less capable than your iphone? Oh right, you can't make phone calls on it or take pictures/video with it. It does EVERYTHING ELSE the iphone does and many things it will do better thanks to more visual real estate but wait, no, it's a POS.


EVERYHING ELSE? Well no 3G or GPS at $499. Unless it is jailbroken, no backgrounding Pandora, no real filesystem, no ssh, no FTP, no saving files from Safari links. Etc. BEST OF ALL? The iPhone fits in my pocket and is ALWAYS with me when I need or want it. A stripped iPhone that does not fit in my pocket is definitely a POS in my book. Nearly worthless. 



> Adjust your expectations. It doesn't want to compete with netbooks, laptops, or tablets. It's doing it's own thing.


Even mighty Apple has to build products people want. I don't need to adjust my expectations, Apple needs to deliver something I want to buy, or convince me why I should want their product that is different from my expectations. So far they have failed. They have introduced a device that does a bunch of things not as well as other products. Excuse me for not getting excited.


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## corndog71

Wow. Ok, you got me there. I can see how it doesn't fit your needs/expectations.

To each their own.:salute:


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## adobo

madpoet said:


> And since I've worked for 20 years on computers and had various eReaders for probably the last 5 years, I think I know pretty well the difference between an LCD screen and an E-Ink screen. If you think Apple has invented some magic pixie dust LCD screen that won't have all the same long-term reading issues as EVERY OTHER LCD screen, then there's really no point in us talking anymore.


So...is that a *no* on case studies and on actual hands on experience on iPad? 




madpoet said:


> Since I work for a major corporation and have coporate level iPhone plans guess what.. no hacking involved.


Well, I am on a corporate plan on my iPhone as well though I guess the folks from my company who negotiated the plans for pee ons like me weren't kind enough to arrange tethering as part of the service. 

To the best of my knowledge, tethering is not supported by AT&T with the iPhone in the U.S. See Apple's website. However, I concede that it is possible that the Apple website is out of date and that AT&T negotiates tethering with some corporate accounts in the U.S. The other possibility is that you are in another country where tethering is supported. Either way, on that I'll take your word for it.

But for those of us in the U.S. either with consumer accounts with AT&T or with corporate accounts without tethering pre-negotiated for our iPhones, we cannot get free 3G access for our laptops without trying to circumvent some counter-measures that are in place.



madpoet said:


> Seriously, am I hurting your Apple stock or something? Because you sure seem combative about this...


If only I had known to buy Apple stock when Jobs first came back to Apple. No, this is not about hurting my pocket book. I have zero stake in Apple's success with any of their products.

Its about how your complaints are stated in a distorted way. Very specifically:
- "you have to get a data plan to use it as a web browser." 
The fact is you don't need a data plan to use it as a web browser. You only need a data plan if you plan to use it when you don't have wifi access.

- "..expect real eye fatigue compared to real eReaders. " 
Is that true for all cases or just some cases? This complaint is stated in an absolute way with no qualifiers attached. Is there a perceptible difference if you only read an hour a day? And so far, you haven't offered any hands on experience or any case studies that show your absolute statement to be true all the time.

- "you're going to spend a lot of time ripping your media to the right format." 
This statement paints a picture that to utilize an iPad as an entertainment device, you will have all kinds of hurdles to negotiate. The truth is that if you are sourcing your new content (rentals and purchases) from iTunes, this is a non-issue. For iTunes users, this statement is only true some of the times and it is not even established if that "some" is really more like "hardly ever".



madpoet said:


> Dude... get your Apple Fanboi tinfoil hat and go hang with all your compatriots at the alter of the all-powerful Steve


:Shrug: 

Thank you - I guess.


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## adobo

dvenardos said:


> Dude, no way can you read a book on a backlit LCD.


There is no way I can read a book on a backlit LCD display? That is your claim? 

Please say what you mean and mean what you say.


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## adobo

m-fine said:


> EVERYHING ELSE? Well no 3G or GPS at $499. Unless it is jailbroken, no backgrounding Pandora, no real filesystem, no ssh, no FTP, no saving files from Safari links. Etc. BEST OF ALL? The iPhone fits in my pocket and is ALWAYS with me when I need or want it. A stripped iPhone that does not fit in my pocket is definitely a POS in my book. Nearly worthless.


You have apps native to iPhone and not available in iPad that do all of that? Because I was under the impression that most apps that run on iPhone from Apps store will run on iPad without any porting required.


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## dvenardos

What I mean is that a backlit display is only meant for casual reading. Have you heard of those things called books? People take them places and read in sunlight and for long hours at a time. Sometimes they get so involved in them they can't put them down until the story is finished. Maybe Seth can better explain what I mean for you.


adobo said:


> There is no way I can read a book on a backlit LCD display? That is your claim?
> 
> Please say what you mean and mean what you say.


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## adobo

dvenardos said:


> What I mean is that a backlit display is only meant for casual reading. .


It could very well turn out that an iPad sucks as an eReader. My Macbook's display has all kinds of glare. I suspect that Apple will use a similar display on the iPad that will suffer from horrendous glare. Until I see one though, I personally am not prepared to speak with authority with what it can and can't do.



dvenardos said:


> Have you heard of those things called books? People take them places and read in sunlight and for long hours at a time. Sometimes they get so involved in them they can't put them down until the story is finished. Maybe Seth can better explain what I mean for you


Oh, so your point is that iPads will be ineffective as eReaders in brightly lit environments. Is that correct? That's probably a fair point. I just couldn't deduce it based on your previous reply.


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## Cujobob

dvenardos said:


> What I mean is that a backlit display is only meant for casual reading. Have you heard of those things called books? People take them places and read in sunlight and for long hours at a time. Sometimes they get so involved in them they can't put them down until the story is finished. Maybe Seth can better explain what I mean for you.


Reading small print is bad for your eyes and the Ipad may have the zoom feature that Iphone/Ipod Touch do. So technically, this could be better for your eyes.

I think the IPad is cool...it's basically a much bigger Ipod Touch for a bit more in price. The touchscreen they use is incredible and makes web browsing a breeze. For casual users who just like to websurf, check mail, and do some other simple stuff...this is a cool device. Myself, I'd probably go for a netbook...especially when the better chipsets come out on them. Since WiFi is now available just about everywhere....I think it's a useful device for many and even more portable than a Netbook. Many businessmen still carry around newspapers and this works for them quite well as a replacement/upgrade...while also having other uses.

It's not an amazing device, but a niche product. If netbooks weren't an option, I'd be getting one.


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## imported_m-fine

adobo said:


> You have apps native to iPhone and not available in iPad that do all of that? Because I was under the impression that most apps that run on iPhone from Apps store will run on iPad without any porting required.


I have apps on my iPhone that do all that because my iPhone is jailbroken which allows me to install apps and utilities not approved for the App Store. While it is possible the iPad will be jailbroken as well, it is also very possible it wont. Either way that is functionality not offered or supported by Apple, but which I use on a rather regular basis.


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## Jason Brent

Pwnage FTW!!!


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## adobo

m-fine said:


> I have apps on my iPhone that do all that because my iPhone is jailbroken which allows me to install apps and utilities not approved for the App Store. While it is possible the iPad will be jailbroken as well, it is also very possible it wont. Either way that is functionality not offered or supported by Apple, but which I use on a rather regular basis.


I'm confused. Previously you wrote:



m-fine said:


> EVERYHING ELSE? Well no 3G or GPS at $499. Unless it is jailbroken, no backgrounding Pandora, no real filesystem, no ssh, no FTP, no saving files from Safari links. Etc. BEST OF ALL? The iPhone fits in my pocket and is ALWAYS with me when I need or want it. A stripped iPhone that does not fit in my pocket is definitely a POS in my book. Nearly worthless.


Now you are saying:



m-fine said:


> I have apps on my iPhone that do all that because my iPhone is jailbroken...



So... iPad can't support some of the apps you use without being jailbroken. But then again, iPhone can't support those same apps without being jailbroken either. How does that make the iPad a stripped down version of the iPhone? 

If you want to say that the iPad may ultimately be less capable if one is unable to jailbreak it, then I can understand that. But whether or not an iPad can be jailbroken has not yet been established. And *if* that turns out to be true, then the argument becomes - iPad is a stripped down version of an iPhone because iPad can't be bastardized like an iPhone. 

On the other hand, I suppose, I could take 6-8 iPhones and super glue them together to come up with same real estate that an iPad has. That would be a fun movie watching or book reading experience while sitting in a plane for 13 hours.


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## imported_m-fine

You may prefer the words locked down to stripped down, but to me it is the same thing. Either I have the functionality or I don't. As of today, the iPad is not jailbreakable. That might change, but it still wont fit in my pocket like an iphone, or have an easy on the eyes screen like the Kindle, or play flash and do a million things a netbook can.


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## dvenardos

Obviously you haven't bothered to actually follow this thread.


adobo said:


> Oh, so your point is that iPads will be ineffective as eReaders in brightly lit environments. Is that correct? That's probably a fair point. I just couldn't deduce it based on your previous reply.





dvenardos said:


> For me the iPad is perfect. I type all most all of my posts on my $300 gateway laptop which is pretty ****** at everything it does. The iPad would meet all my home surfing needs, I don't usually write essays for replies and I wouldn't have to have this stupid cord plugged into the laptop all the time. A big iPod touch is very appealing to me.





dvenardos said:


> Couldn't disagree more. A dedicated e-reader will be my next electronic purchase. For those that read a lot having your entire library at had is a huge plus. I am always reading several books at the same time and the ability to have them all at hand in one device is huge. Book lovers will never read a book on a LED display, e-ink is a must. On the Kindle you can get a huge selections of the classics for practically free, not to mention the fact that book lovers are constantly running out of bookshelf space.
> 
> No flash is a deal breaker. They have to add flash support, this must come.





dvenardos said:


> I think, however, that reading a book is different. No one really enjoys spending hours in front of an LED display. When the time comes that you can toggle between lit and unlit that will be the demise of the ereader. The iPad is a great device for my current needs (cheap laptop, desktops, no cellphone or iphone touch) but I would NOT use it as an ereader, no way...





dvenardos said:


> Sweet. :thumbsup:
> Looks like 2011 will be my ereader/portable gadget purchase.





dvenardos said:


> A true ereader plus iphone apps and web, that would be a no brainer for me. :yes:





dvenardos said:


> Looks like there is going to be a bunch of tablets and notebooks using the PixelQi this year.
> http://gizmodo.com/5443895/e+ink-is-dead-pixel-qis-amazing-transflective-lcd-just-killed-it
> http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/07/notion-ink-adam-prototype-hands-on-it-looks-nothing-like-the-re/
> http://www.popsci.com/gadgets/article/2010-01/pixel-qi-lcd-screen-could-finally-kill-paper-forever





dvenardos said:


> I said before, enable flash and the iPad is a perfect device for me and the kids to share. iPod games and web browsing with long batter life and nice form factor. Works for me, but I really like the Apple OS even if I am not a fan of the hardware choices.





dvenardos said:


> I agree with all of those points, it definitely isn't a world changer. I was expecting a $1,200 device from Apple and haven't been happy with any of my $500 options, so I was pleasantly surprised and was like, "Hey, I might even buy that".





dvenardos said:


> Dude, no way can you read a book on a backlit LCD. If they had a version with the Pixel Qi screen for the same cost I would be all over it, but no way am I going to cozy up with a LCD to read a book. Jobs has incorrectly stated that eReaders are a non-starter, so until he changes his mind the iPad isn't going to be designed as a dedicated eReader.





dvenardos said:


> What I mean is that a backlit display is only meant for casual reading. Have you heard of those things called books? People take them places and read in sunlight and for long hours at a time. Sometimes they get so involved in them they can't put them down until the story is finished. Maybe Seth can better explain what I mean for you.


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## adobo

m-fine said:


> You may prefer the words locked down to stripped down, but to me it is the same thing. Either I have the functionality or I don't. As of today, the iPad is not jailbreakable.


It's actually more than semantics. You are making apples to oranges comparisons and concluding that one device is inferior to the other based on this apples to oranges comparison.

Incidentally, as of today, very few of us have any first hand knowledge of what can and can't be done with an iPad, correct?



m-fine said:


> That might change, but it still wont fit in my pocket like an iphone, or have an easy on the eyes screen like the Kindle, or play flash and do a million things a netbook can.


Let me see if I understand you correctly. iPad is worthless because it doesn't meet all three of the following criteria:
- be as good an eReader as a Kindle
- be as flexible and powerful as a laptop
- fit in your pocket like an iPhone

Is this what you are saying?


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## adobo

dvenardos said:


> Obviously you haven't bothered to actually follow this thread.


Sorry man, but you just quoted text from 10 separate replies. I don't know how anyone is expected to follow another person's train of thought over than many replies.

And even after you strung together all your replies, I still don't understand why you would post something like:



dvenardos said:


> Dude, no way can you read a book on a backlit LCD.


But whatever. I'm over it.


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## corndog71

My laptop has a backlit LCD and I read on it all of the time. I also read on a backlit LCD monitor at work all of the time. Don't recall getting eyestrain from them.

I don't quite understand how the iPad would fail at this task.


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## Jon Liu

I agree. I'm also assuming that their will be an auto-brightness control much like there is for the iPhone/iPod Touch, which will further help with the issue of eyestrain. Still, this device is not appealing enough to me. Unless something changes between now and the official release of it, it looks like I won't be buying one.


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## dvenardos

So, my POS laptop died and if I want to hang out with you guys while I listen to music and drink beer I need to find something else without much cash.
I set up the wii to browse the internet, but the problem with that is that there are no mouse drivers and you have to use the wii remote for a mouse, which really bites the big one. :yes: I went over to BestBuy to play around with the netbooks and the iPod touch. The netbooks seem like a waste of money to me. The resolution is not that great and performance mediocre. The cheap laptops are all clunky and, well, cheap. I was surprised at the performance of the iBook; never demoed a iBook that was so snappy, but I don't have a grand to drop. I played around with the iPod touch and I was really impressed with the interface, but the screen and on-screen keypad are just too small. However, playing around with the iPod touch I can see how the iPad interface would be great for an internet appliance. I know that flash is an issue, but as someone that doesn't have a cell phone, iPod, or a laptop (anymore) this may be a very good device. You may just see me with one...


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## imported_Lefty

dvenardos said:


> Dude, no way can you read a book on a backlit LCD. .


I have both a Kindle and an iPhone with the Kindle app. I go back and forth at random, one being pretty much the same as the other to me, and I am a big reader. Just the fact that these things exist is amazing for a reader, especially with the sync feature. That's too cool. I would be unhappy if I had to go back to actual books. I probably have no use for an iPad, but since I love gadgets, I'll probably end up with one.


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## dvenardos

Lefty, how old are you? Maybe it is because I am middle aged. Working on a screen is not an eye pleasing event. I just cannot see using an iPad (or an iPhone) as an ereader.


Lefty said:


> I have both a Kindle and an iPhone with the Kindle app. I go back and forth at random, one being pretty much the same as the other to me, and I am a big reader. Just the fact that these things exist is amazing for a reader, especially with the sync feature. That's too cool. I would be unhappy if I had to go back to actual books. I probably have no use for an iPad, but since I love gadgets, I'll probably end up with one.


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## imported_Lefty

I turn 58 tomorrow. :saywhat:


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## madpoet

And they call him "Eagle Eye"


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## dvenardos

I should be more respectful. 


Lefty said:


> I turn 58 tomorrow. :saywhat:


edit: My laptop is back up and running, so the iPad won't be stealing from my audio budget. Amazing how much you get used to having a laptop around.


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## dvenardos

Joojoo?
https://thejoojoo.com
http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/01/the-joojoo-is-here-seriously/


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## MarkMarc

I admit, I like Apple products. I think the iPad is going to have a trajectory much like the iPod, (only 354k were sold the first year). Granted, the first version lacks a camera, multi-tasking, and an SD slot, but this product *(and others)* are going to change the educational publishing market big time. In 5 years textbooks will all but be a thing of the past. Professors will be able to select specific chapters/content to fit their curriculum, with real time updating. Students will be able click on a icon and watch videos demonstrating the specific topic. They'll be able to highlight their notes and have those item placed into a document automatically. 

As a teacher, this will be a paradigm shift in the way texts are employed in education. It will start at the college level, then move down into k-12. It's going to be fun to watch.


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## Mep

Not sure that will happen in 5 years. Such content needs to be created and I don't see that kind of content being out there in just 5 years. I do think that is the future however, eventually and gradually. Books are as dead as newpaper yet.


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## tako_tsubo

MarkMarc said:


> I admit, I like Apple products. I think the iPad is going to have a trajectory much like the iPod, (only 354k were sold the first year). Granted, the first version lacks a camera, multi-tasking, and an SD slot, but this product *(and others)* are going to change the educational publishing market big time. In 5 years textbooks will all but be a thing of the past. Professors will be able to select specific chapters/content to fit their curriculum, with real time updating. Students will be able click on a icon and watch videos demonstrating the specific topic. They'll be able to highlight their notes and have those item placed into a document automatically.
> 
> As a teacher, this will be a paradigm shift in the way texts are employed in education. It will start at the college level, then move down into k-12. It's going to be fun to watch.



Netbooks/ebook readers have proliferated on college campus' over the past year....according to my son who is a music, English, journalism major at Denver Uni. The ipad seems to fit the bill for him and many of his friends who just got their ipads yesterday. 

I use my Touch( or for others iphone) extensively in my emergency department rather than using the desktop...except for looking at xrays. Ipads use in medicine will be inevitable....I have not found many who have used netbooks, that plan to stick with them.


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## dvenardos

New review from informationweek:
http://www.informationweek.com/news...articleID=224201295&pgno=1&queryText=&isPrev=

As an ereader:
http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/ipad_review_new_york_times_vs.php
http://www.pcworld.com/article/193389/ipad_as_ereader_glaring_problems_promising_apps.html

Engadget:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/03/apple-ipad-review/


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## InfernoSTi

MarkMarc said:


> I admit, I like Apple products. I think the iPad is going to have a trajectory much like the iPod, (only 354k were sold the first year). Granted, the first version lacks a camera, multi-tasking, and an SD slot, but this product *(and others)* are going to change the educational publishing market big time. In 5 years textbooks will all but be a thing of the past. Professors will be able to select specific chapters/content to fit their curriculum, with real time updating. Students will be able click on a icon and watch videos demonstrating the specific topic. They'll be able to highlight their notes and have those item placed into a document automatically.
> 
> As a teacher, this will be a paradigm shift in the way texts are employed in education. It will start at the college level, then move down into k-12. It's going to be fun to watch.


2 million sold in the first 60 days it turns out. Much faster than the iPhone. In the worst economy since the great depression. I wonder if Apple knows what they are doing? Fanboys aside, they sure know how to create demand: just the right mix of product and excitement. Again and again, they create a "gotta have it" environment for their otherwise mass market products.


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## noysboy

IMHO, web browsing on an iPad is a great experience. Typing, not so much. I use my iPad all the time for reading news and forums, but dont type on it cause I hate the virtual keyboard.

Its definitely got some usability pluses.


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## Mep

Umm, yeah, a $ billion in two months. Most people would be happy with 1% of that in a whole year. It actually shot apples stock price up enough that apple's market cap is worth more than microsoft, if you can believe that.

The adroid base tablet coming out does interests me. The iPad is a little too raw right now. Can't argue with it's success though.


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