# Just getting started



## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

Hi,
I just recently started looking into home theaters... I got a pioneer VSX-82TXS for a ridiculously good deal, and now i'm looking to upgrade the front speakers (floorstanding) and probably also the center. 

First I started looking at polk's, infinity's, and klipsch, primarily because that's what at best buy's. I quickly moved on and found that axiom seems to be a pretty good company. I was looking at M80's and a VP-150 center. The only problem is everyone who recommended these, did so 2-3 years ago. I was wondering if there are reasons for this, and what current recommendations are out there for places to look. Budget is about 1500. I would like to get good crisp sounds in the midrange area as that's what i've noticed is the most deficient in my old system. 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

Hi Adam, Welcome to the Shack.

I don't believe that Axiom has made any changes to those speakers over the last few years. The reviews and recommendation should still be valid. :bigsmile:

I have not heard the Axioms, but most who do really seem to like them. I do hear they are a bit on the forward/bright side, but it sounds like that is what you are looking for. I'd recommend you upgrade all three speakers to maintain your front soundstage.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

What Nova said...


plus...

I'd take a listen to some other brands. What you're going to hear at Best Buy (or any other big box store) usually is on the lower end of the audio scale. I'd go and listen to some speakers at the smaller specialty stores. They should have a much better selection especially at the price point you're looking at (this may be a good read for you too). At the very least, you can maybe refine the characteristics that you're looking for. The stuff you were listening to at BB are all probably very "bright".. you might like something more neutral after having a good listen.

Also, I don't think you should limit yourself to just floorstanders. I actually think at that price point, a bookshelf would/could be better.

In any case, happy hunting!


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks for the comments, I have no intention to listen to things from BB or CC, because i've seen their lack of organization and their lack of knowledge. 

As for particulars, i want them to be able to handle music loudly.... with good sound throughout the range. I don't have a super good sub right now, so i want floorstanders to be able to back up the bass and also add in that extra sound in the high bass/low midrange area.

As for movies, which is a larger concern, i want to be able to listen to them at a good volume, which would might be loud for some, but i want to get better dialogue, so i don't miss words and have to go back. 

So back to the axiom question... it seems though that all the talk today is about SVS equipment. Is SVS a much better buy or why did axiom as well as others kinda drop off of the recommendation list?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Well, we internet types tend to buzz, we find something we like and run with it...then, like a spaniel with an attention deficit disorder, we start chasing after the latest shiny thing.

Axiom Audio was one of the first internet direct darlings. They made a very nice name for themselves selling good speakers at prices previously unheard of. Then, the internet direct thing really took off, and like Brick and Mortar stores before them, turned into quite a crowded field. SVS and HSU took off in the subwoofer market (and subsequently introduced a speaker line), and av123, aperion, ascend and others (what's with all the "A" names?) joined the speaker (and subwoofer) fray.

For the money, I don't think you can go wrong with any of them, but everyone has their preferences. SVS is pretty universally accepted as the best performing subwoofers for the money (though, if aesthetics are second to performance, check out elemental designs), and since their speakers are supposed to be pretty good to boot, you might as well buy them all at the same place and save a little bit on the package deal.

In the end, your best bet is to read up on the guarantee and return policy (for instance, aperion will pay shipping both ways, in addition to offering full trade-in value), and from the various internet reviews, try some out.


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

Adam I own M80s and they can get a bit bright even harsh with poorly recorded music, but when you find a really well recorded piece it is pure bliss. As you say you are looking for something you can play loud, I have found the M60 to be more laid back when played loud than the M80s and as such I would suggest you look at these speakers from Axiom. You should drop by Axiom's forum and check in the Hearing Things area to see if there is anyone nearby that could give you an audition, this way you wouldn't have to wonder what they sound like. Good luck. 

FYI, Axioms share a very similar soinic signature to Paradigms, most say the Studio series if that helps.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks guys, for the advice so far...

I tried going on axiom's site and found 4 people in my area who have speakers i want to listen to, but so far no one has responded to my pm... i kinda think they aren't really around any more. Hopefully, someone will eventually respond to my message.

Another question is for the time being i'm planning on not getting a new subwoofer. So my question is is it worthwhile to look at the speakers for say SVS as opposed to the axioms which seem pretty good? Or say if i was looking at an Axiom system and i wanted 5 speakers, would it be good just to pick up a package that included a sub from them? Or still buy the pieces individually and then pick up a sub from SVS at a later date?


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Why go to someone else's house to listen to Axioms when you can listen to them in your own home and return them within 30 days if you don't like them?



> What if I don't like my loudspeakers?
> We are so sure that you will love your loudspeakers that we offer a 30-day trial period, so that you can evaluate our speakers in your home, with your own stereo or home theater equipment. If they do not meet your expectations in any way, we will refund the cost of the speakers to you. Special finish charges are not refundable.
> 
> If you decide you would not like to keep our speakers during that 30 days, please contact us to find out how to return your loudspeakers. Please be sure to keep all original packaging for returning your loudspeakers. If you do not have original packaging, please contact us. We will provide you with the customs documents you need to return your speakers. We have locations return shipping locations in:
> ...


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

You go to someone's house for an audition to save money, Axiom requires you pay for the shipping if returned, as stated in the last line you quoted and if you are looking at anything larger than bookshelf speakers the return shipping can get costly, even on Axiom's account.

Adam, throw up a post in the Hearing things forum as well, there are more people on the forum that might be within a reasonable driving distance that are not on the list. Ajax I think might even be able to give you an audition of another fine company - av123 Rockets. I think he has the 750's.

I have the PB13 -Ultra from SVS to go with my Axioms. There is no problem mixing and matching a sub as long as you are not looking to match a special finish for the speakers or the sub. I also had the PB12-nsd before upgrading to the PB13. The PB12 is a great sub as well, I just wanted something a little more linear in response. and not as tall/long as the EP600 from Axiom.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

Jake, I see... i also see you on the axiom boards right now too... anyways, yeah, i've really been considering now looking into the m22's. If i get the m22's i can pick up the QS8's and the VP-150 all within my budget, and then focus on upgrading the sub here soon too. 

I wonder if i should contact this guy James Savard and ask him???


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

Certainly, ask James for some possible contacts as he can make contact with owners in the area to see if they are willing to give auditions.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok... so after talking with someone who has both m22's and m60's, I can hopefully get a chance to hear these bad boys... my next question is my plan was to go with the full axiom set minus the sub... so with that being said, i've been reading some harsh reviews about the VP-150 center. This leads me to wonder if it's a good idea to buy VP-150 to have the complete sound package, or if i should research elsewhere to see if i can find a better center channel. Do you guys have any opinions?

oh i should add that the reviews i was reading were from 2005 and earlier, and they mainly focussed on a harsh high range. I'm no so worried about that because with proper calibration that can be reduced, but more importantly they suggested that the speaker was very precise but doesn't favor poorly designed rooms. At this point, i need something that can handle both. Eventually i will create that dedicated room, but for now i need it to be able to handle different seats equally well.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

I figure i should probably add i'm little worried because much of my music supply is in mp3 format, and i'm a little worried that going with these awesome speakers is going to make me hate all that music and i'm going to spend a fortune on better recorded music. I also watch a lot of movies and tv shows through my computer, and i'm a little worried that the poor capturing quality will show through. Can anyone comment on this?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

If it works with your setup, skip the center and get 3 identical speaker across the front.

As for your mp3, I find that anything in the 128 region is going to sound lacking. Around 192 it gets hard to distinuish, and at 256/320, it takes some pretty magical ears to tell the difference. As long as you've encoded at 192 or better, you'll probably not notice a huge difference. Either way, bad encodes are not a reason to get a system that doesn't sound as good.


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

Axioms were on my short list also. I became concerned when I read many reports about their bright (some say harsh) sound. I also became concerned when I read the reviews of their subwoofers, which concluded they are average (at best) performers at a premium price. Fair or not, I interpolated the subwoofer performance to their full range speakers.

I spent months reading and anguishing the decision, since I don't replace speakers often. I considered all the usual ID suspects - Hsu, SVS, Paradigm, Ascend and even considered retail based PSB, which I had heard. I even considered DIY speakers and subs, but I decided I didn't have the right tools for the job and it would have ended up being much more expensive. I think I became proficient in reading between the lines in the reviews. 

Anyway, I ended up with Ascends (340s front, 170s side and 200s back) for the 7 part of the 7.1 system and an SVS PB12-NSD for the sub. I've been very pleased. I had some friends who purchased a Klipsch setup from Best Buy over to watch "The Dark Knight". At the end, one commented: "OK, now I have a serious case of speaker envy!"

I did no direct comparison, so I can't say definitavely that my Ascends were the best of what I considered. I think among the companies named that any would do fine and the difference would probably be a matter of taste.

Good luck in your search.

Doug


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

Let your ears be the judge and make the decision after you hear them. If your MP3's are 128k or higher you should be good. I have listened to compressed music on my M80s which offer even more detail than the M60s and it is fine as long as the bit rate is kept to the higher ranges, but I think you will start to want to listen to better sources if you go with the M60s.

The VP150 is not as bad as a few people make them out to be, Yes it is the weakest link in Axiom's lineup, IMO, but it still out performs many other centers I have heard.


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

jakewash said:


> . If your MP3's are 128k or higher you should be good. I have listened to compressed music ....


Also, there's some AVR that has "an enhanced feature" when listening to MP3's (my Yamaha RXV 2700 has it, I have the options 2/7 channel stereo or 2/7 channel enhanced stereo) :yes:


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok so that's a relief in terms of computer-related media. Anyways, DougMac, i've been doing a lot of research on the matter, and yes the VP-150 and their sub line don't quite hold in the most serious scrutiny, but i don't know if i've ever heard a bad comment about their speakers. The only two criticisms i've ever heard are the m80's can get bright and the 4 ohms can be tough to handle. Either way i'm very impressed so far with the reviews on both the fronts and surrounds for axiom, i'm just a little worried about going with a different center or the axiom center. I have every intention to pick up a SVS sub, but i'm not sure which to get and when to get it, because if i pick up the ultra, i need a little bit more time to save the money.


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

You may find these reviews interesting, especially the first one that does a direct comparison of the Axiom VP150 and the Ascend 340SE C:

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/spea...speaker-company/vp150/PRD_125695_2743crx.aspx

If you're planning on a lot of movie watching, I think the choice of a strong center is crucial. I've read that as much as 60%-75% of movies' audio content is sent to the center speaker.


I'm a little concerned about reported problems with the VP150's off axis performance. There are those who feel the multiple woofer speakers (MTM, or D'Appolito configuration) placed horizontally, as in common center speaker designs, leads to off axis performance issues that can't be overcome (http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs). From my understanding, it's hard enough to design a good MTM speaker, throwing in yet another midrange seems to be asking to compound lobing (wave cancellation) problems. BTW, I've got Ascend 340's up front, with the center in a vertical configuration. Off axis response is not a problem.

I hooked up my Creative Zen to the HT last night to listen to "Louisiana Love Call" by Maria Muldaur. I subscribe to Rhapsody and have my downloads set to the highest quality. The sound of this well produced album was wonderful!

Doug


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

As an owner of a VP150 I can assure you the off axis response issues that are reported are usually not audible when things are set up correctly and certainly no worse than the usual MTM designs. Some of the issues that are mentioned could be related back to placement or room reflections etc. For example I have heard some Paradigm centers that get rave reviews sound dull and muted to my ears due to a rooms environment or poor placements. BTW, IMO, Paradigms are so close in timbre to Axiom you could run one of their centers with Axiom mains. You also have to consider the depth of these other centers, as many are twice as deep as the VP150, which can be an issue for some HT systems.

The biggest knock on Axioms subs is they are expensive and that they do not have the same max output as other subs, yet I have compared the EP600 to my PB13 - Ultra and the differences are minimal to my ears, the Axiom sub has more of a resonance to it, fills the room up more like at a live concert than at a bar/dance hall where you get slammed by the pro subs which sound a little drier, more like the PB13. As far as max output in room, I managed to bottom out the PB13 at what looked to be the same SPL on the Radio Shack meter as the EP600's max output but the 600 never bottomed out due to it's DSP. I could feel the PB13 more due to it's lower extension which is what I was looking for in my HT so I went with the PB13.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

all right, so here's another question, i was reading the speaker buying thread that jcd wrote, and he lists about 8 speaker companies there that one should look into. I've been doing that, but since most of them require going to specialized dealers, and i don't have the time to hunt them all down. Can someone give me a quick price range, it doesn't have to be overly accurate, but just a starting point for the following companies:

* Paradigm
* KEF
* Monitor
* Tannoy
* Dynaudio

I left paradigm up as a reference point.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Each of the companies you listed have many speaker lines which can start in the neighborhood of a couple hundred dollars a speakers and go up to a thousand or more. Google up their respective websites and you should find retail prices which will give you some idea.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

see... i tried that, but i think most of those sites don't actually list retail prices, which irritate me... and then i can't find comparison models... like in each of what lines would lie in the 500-1300 dollar/pair price range.

Also just out of curiousity, what does a KEF muon cost, those things were riduclous?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Find the model that you're looking at and google it, as well as searching on Audiogon and Ebay. Then, not only will you find reviews with the retail price noted, you'll get a sense o real market value.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

all right, so an update... i found a local paradigm dealer, and after hearing that paradigm has a similar sound to axiom, which was the foremost rival at this point, i went in to have a listen. I listened to the studio 60's, which had a price tag at 1500. Knowing that everyone says that axiom can get a bit bright, i asked for something a little warmer. The guy pointed me to a revel around the same price. I had a listen. The same song, led zeppelin, battle of evermore, sounded amazingly different, and considerably better. Although i will say a little bit of the crispness was missing. Sounds were kind of muted, but still the whole range of sound was there. I've now established that looking for something a little more neutral might be a good thing. So now i'm back to the drawing board. I've been starting to look at various companies and consider different lines, but there's quite a few selections, and i don't really know where to start. 

One thing i am mildly hesitant about is when i looked at audioreviews.com and i search for an axiom product, i find dozens of reviews. When i search for the something like the Monitor RS8, i find two consumer reviews, and yet when i search for axiom m80, i find 35. Why are there so few reviews for this product?


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

geniusadam said:


> One thing i am mildly hesitant about is when i looked at audioreviews.com and i search for an axiom product, i find dozens of reviews. When i search for the something like the Monitor RS8, i find two consumer reviews, and yet when i search for axiom m80, i find 35. Why are there so few reviews for this product?


Most likely because someone who buys from an internet direct dealer will most likely post on the internet about his great buy. The guy who buys a nice speaker from a boutique or mom&pop shop may not even know what the internet is :bigsmile:. Complete over exaggeration, but I'm sure ya catch my drift.

And on a side note,... I have owned some Monitor Audio speakers and have nothing but rave reviews about them. Don't let the lack of a review influence a Monitor Audio purchase. Besides,... have a look at this thread or, this thread.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

good point. hmm... that still doesn't help me narrow down the field at all.

Ideas people. 

Now from what i can gather after researching and listening and everything... i plan to fill a midsized room, suppose 15x15. Mainly i want to watch movies, but i also want to be able to listen to music. I want voices in movies to sound great. In music i would i like it to deliver across the range of sound. Also i don't care one bit about looks; it's solely about the sound for me. 

Also, i can apparently go and demo quite a few products because there seems to be a lot of audio stores within about 20 minutes of where i live. I know for sure i can hear both kef and monitor.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

i guess i have another stupid question here... so if you found a speaker, which when compared side by side with another speaker, and you felt that it lacked low end sound, couldn't you just change the equalizer to put more emphasis on the low ends?


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

geniusadam said:


> ... so if you found a speaker, which when compared side by side with another speaker, and you felt that it lacked low end sound, couldn't you just change the equalizer to put more emphasis on the low ends?


It will depend on your taste and if you're using a sub or not.

If you use a sub anything below 80Hz can be send to the sub, so the speakers will play only above 80Hz ...most people get speakers that go down to 65Hz because they know that the sub will take care of the rest ...but you need a good sub, one that can play to at least 20Hz :yes:


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

true, i was referring to the more like 100 -1000 Hz range though. When i was listening to the A/B test with paradigms against revels, i found paradigms delivered much crisper sounds in the say 2 to 20 kHz range, but then below 1 kHz, the Revels really display a much stronger sound. While i wouldn't say the Paradigms sounded harsh, i would say the Revels sounded fuller. So i was thinking if you just took the paradigms and kicked up the lower midrange and upper bass areas if you could then get the paradigms to sound fuller and still keep the details in the highs.


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

geniusadam said:


> So i was thinking if you just took the paradigms and kicked up the lower midrange and upper bass areas if you could then get the paradigms to sound fuller and still keep the details in the highs.


Yeah, I'm sure you can ...there's some AVR's that already have PEQ so you don't need to buy an external EQ :yes:.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

you sound hesitant about doing this? is this not a good idea?


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

geniusadam said:


> you sound hesitant about doing this? is this not a good idea?


Not at all, when you run the auto-calibration feature in your AVR (if it has one) that's what it does (adjust the bass and treble to get the flattest response). you can also adjust it manually to your taste :yes:

That's the fun part of this hobby ...tweeking, tweeking and more tweeking :bigsmile:


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

well after exploring the forums more, i've discovered there's a much better place for this thread... too bad i didn't read all the forums first.

Anyways, from what i read, and i spend a lot of time doing that now, it seems everyone is going with the svs, mostly the SBS package. Is that really that good? I mean if stacked that up against say Axiom m60's or like MA RS6's would they even compare? What about the MTS line in SVS? Has there been much discussion on that?


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

ok, i have another stupid question... what is 2 1/2 way crossover design. I've figured out what a 2 way or a 3 way is and a 4 way (on a few overly priced models), but what does 2 1/2 mean?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

geniusadam said:


> ok, i have another stupid question... what is 2 1/2 way crossover design. I've figured out what a 2 way or a 3 way is and a 4 way (on a few overly priced models), but what does 2 1/2 mean?


Someone correct me if I'm wrong or just too general...

It means that though a speaker may have 1 tweeter and two woofers, each woofer is crossed over at a different point. This is often used in center channel speakers to reduce lobbing effects (see the bottom graph here for an example: http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=gem_mod.html ). For instance:

A standard MTM (Mid Tweeter Mid) speaker may have a two-way crossover at about 3KHz, with the tweeter crossed over above that point, and both mid/bass drivers crossed over below. A 2 1/2 way design means that while one of the mid/bass drivers still receives the full mid-bass range of frequencies, the other mid-bass driver might be crossed over at 400Hz and lower. As a result, in the two-and-a-half way configuration, the tweeter does most of the work above 3KHz, one mid/bass driver handles most of the work from 3Khz down to 400Hz, and from 400Hz on down, both mid-bass drivers are working.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

geniusadam said:


> Anyways, from what i read, and i spend a lot of time doing that now, it seems everyone is going with the svs, mostly the SBS package. Is that really that good? I mean if stacked that up against say Axiom m60's or like MA RS6's would they even compare? What about the MTS line in SVS? Has there been much discussion on that?


I think that there is a lot of buzz around SVS having great subwoofers for your money. They also have decent speakers, and by factoring in a package discount on a 5.1 system, it makes a lot of sense to go SVS all around. I'm not saying that SVS doesn't make good speakers (I can't, I haven't heard them), I'm just saying that brand loyalty and economics also factor in.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

It seems to me from my readings that monitor audio as in the rs8 or the much more expensive gs60 are more suited for music rather than movies. Can anyone confirm this?


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

> Although i will say a little bit of the crispness was missing. Sounds were kind of muted, but still the whole range of sound was there. I've now established that looking for something a little more neutral might be a good thing





> Now from what i can gather after researching and listening and everything... i plan to fill a midsized room, suppose 15x15. Mainly i want to watch movies, but i also want to be able to listen to music. I want voices in movies to sound great. In music i would i like it to deliver across the range of sound. Also i don't care one bit about looks; it's solely about the sound for me.


Adam, you are all over the place, IMO. Voices to be clear comes from a good detailed speaker, like Paradigms/Axiom, try listening to some movies through a set of Paradigms and then through the Revels, you will notice the voices will most likely still be muted as you stated, good, but muted. I notice things like this whenever I listen to systems at friends places or stores etc. Many just have a slightly subdued sound to me and I prefer the detail. 

You sound as though you want all the detail, but not at the price of a possible bright sound, tough if not impossible to do. 

You mentioned turning up the bass controls to warm up the sound on the Paradigms, yes you can do that, it is why they offer such things and running a sub really warms up the sound as well. My M22s and the Pb13 sound nearly as good as the M80s + sub, there is only a subtle difference.

Did you ever go to listen to the M60's and M22's?


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

geniusadam said:


> It seems to me from my readings that monitor audio as in the rs8 or the much more expensive gs60 are more suited for music rather than movies. Can anyone confirm this?


I feel statements about one speaker better for HT than music or vice versa comes from the idea of brighter speakers doing HT better, as they offer better detail at lower volumes, so the softest of sounds is easier to hear and the more laid back speakers can be cranked up which many people want to do for music, as you said the Revels sounded better, but muted with the Led Zepplin you played. To me if it sounded muted then it isn't better, but that is me. The flip side would be some people want their HT at full reference volume, 85 db and at these levels a brighter speaker might be too bright, so it all still comes down to personal preferances.

There is a fine line between a bright speaker and a laidback speaker and it is very hard to achieve this balance on a typical budget.

Most of the speakers I have heard that hit these 2 points are in the $3000 and up range, Focal 918, 928s for example. I am willing to listen a lower volumes with more detail and have a great HT experience for much less than that with my Axioms.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Some random answers:

SVS
I have heard the SBS and think they sound really good for the money. Frankly, I think they're pretty hard to beat from what I've heard and with my tastes. I haven't heard them myself, but a lot of people REALLY like the MBS/MTS series as well. If you can afford to jump up, I would. Plus they look a lot better IMO.

2.5 designs
I built a pair of speakers that are a 2.5 design. In this case, the second woofer starts to kick in (I believe) where the speaker starts to loose some bass output due to the sound going from 2pi to 4pi (iow, a different way of handling the baffle step loss)

Movies vs. Music
I don't distinguish between the two as a general rule. Any speaker that's good for music would be good for movies. It might not be so much going the other way.. and here is my reasoning: Movies, I don't care as much for true fidelity to the original source. I also might be more inclined to get a system (note, i did not say speaker) that can handle the really low stuff more than if I was just interested in music.

Monitor Audio
I know this relates to the above issue, but just wanted to throw in that I've heard Monitor makes a really good speaker. And again, if it's good for music (and Monitor is supposed to be) it's good for movies.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

It does seem that monitor does make very good speakers, but they're at the very high end of my price range, so i don't know quite how i feel about that. Here's an update, after much consideration and research, i've come up with a list of possible candidates. For simplicity's sake i'll only list the fronts.

Axioms: m60's, m80's, possibly m22's
Monitor: RS8's
Paradigm: Studio 100, Monitor 11's
Polk: RTi A9, RTi A7, TSi 500

There's quite a price range there from about 500 to about 2000. I'm planning on trying to do some A/B comparisons of some of these, so hopefully i can start to eliminate ones that i know i don't want. My next plan is to try and hear the monitor 11's. I should have done this when i was at the paradigm dealer before but oh well. I think my idea is to try and compare the monitor series with studio series, and see if the extra money for the studio is really worth it. If the monitors perform well, maybe i can narrow my the upper end of my price range.

If you guys have any opinions on my selections, please let me know.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

ok... so today i went back to the paradigm dealer and compared the studio 60's against the monitor 11's and frankly, i thought the monitors outperformed the studios. They were certainly more efficient, but also i think came through with the whole sound. With that being said, I don't think the studio 100's make sense.

Futher, i've narrowed my list to...

axiom... m60, m80
paradigm monitor 11s
monitor RS8

Four speakers to choose from... also my price range is narrower too... 900 to 1500.


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

What doesn't make sense about the Studio 100's? They sound different than the 60's, similar to the Monitor 11's, only more detail and better low end, IMO, at least the couple of 100s I have heard and going by my memory of the 2. 

The monitor 11s I A/B'd with the M80's was a very close sound. The M80s allowed that extra bit of detail and low end to come through that the Monitor 11's couldn't duplicate. I would say the M60s sound a little more laid back than the Monitor 11's, again just going with my memory of how the 2 speakers sound. I did notice the M60's becoming more clear and open up when driven a little louder, say around 85 db, this is where they started to sound more like the M80s, IMO, details became clearer, etc. The M80s just have more detail and bass at lower volumes all the time.

I have yet to hear the RS8's, so no comment.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

the studio 100's are expensive... out of my price range and if they sound anything like the 60's with more bass extension, i think i still take the monitors. Anyways, thanks for your input on the speakers. I really want to hear the RS8's. I wonder if anyone on the forums has a pair is close enough to me. I'm thinking i might commit to the axioms after all and then maybe take them in for a A/B comparison to the monitor 11's. I mean at most then it's an extra 100 dollars. I also have to call and get pricing for the paradigm centers. Here's another question for people: how about mixing the studio centers with the monitor fronts? or any of the paradigm centers (monitor or studio) with the axiom front? Next i gotta decide if i want to commit to the QS8's. I got cold feet on them.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

i just found another possible problem... the receiver i have is a pioneer elite VSX-82TXSi. It's only rated to go down to 6 ohms. I was wondering what would happen if i hooked up the m80's, which are 4 ohms to it?


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

geniusadam said:


> i just found another possible problem... the receiver i have is a pioneer elite VSX-82TXSi. It's only rated to go down to 6 ohms. I was wondering what would happen if i hooked up the m80's, which are 4 ohms to it?


I think you'll be fine (my Yamaha can handle 4 ohms, but like your it has two options on the settings 8 or 6 ohms, I was using a pair of two 8 ohms speakers wired in parallel, but the AVR was running a little hot powering all speaker on my 7.2 system) ....the best thing to do is to get a separate amp for those speakers :whistling:


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

Pretty much any receiver will run 4 ohm speakers, the question is how loud you want it to go. The louder you go the harder it is on the amp which is where the need to buy a separate amp comes in, try it with out and if you start to get shut down issues then you know you need to buy a seperate amp with more power.

Now I believe your Pioneer is THX rated and as such has to maintain a 3 ohm load to receive this rating, so you should be good with the M80s.

You mentioned you are not sure about the QS8's, Why? They get great reveiws and really spread out the sound in the rear, many that have them say they don't find the need to run 7 speakers as the QS's work great for surround duty and sound really good with music as well.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

ok good, then i don't have to deal with the immediate dilemma of looking into an external amp. Also, just wondering, but if i did want to get an external amp, what would be a good choice? i don't need/want a whole list, just a quick idea, esp. to get a price guess.

As for the QS8's, they do get great reviews, but i was just thinking about other brands, esp. if i decide to with the monitor audios, i think the GSFX are really solid speakers. I don't know, as i said, just cold feet. We'll see how i feel as i start to commit more to which of the fronts i want.


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

I have been very interested in the products from Outlaw, Emotiva, Odyssey, integra and if you can afford it, Axiom's 8 channel amp is getting good reveiws from owners and the few professional reviews of it.


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

geniusadam said:


> Also, just wondering, but if i did want to get an external amp, what would be a good choice? i don't need/want a whole list, just a quick idea, esp. to get a price guess...


Outlaw, Emotiva, Odyssey, integra are some but I little $$$$ ....that's why in most cases we go with pro-amps (Nady, Behringer, Crown, QSC, etc.) :yes:

A drawback is the look, I have a Samson Servo 600 (see spoiler) that I think it blends nice with the rest of the equipment, another amp that I think it looks nice is Behringer A500 :yes:


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

ok... great, so looking at just a few hundred dollars to power the fronts if i needed to...

Also out of curiousity, why did you make those spoilers?

So then i won't rule out the m80's at all. Then if i do need the extra amp, i can do research then to decide which one to buy. Thanks jake and david.


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

I wouldn't exactly call Emotiva a high dollar amp, and neither are the Outlaw's. The Emotiva XPA-3 a 3 channel 200W/ch 8 ohm is only $500 right now and Outlaw's M-2200 same output as the emotiva is $674 for 2 as the M-2200 is a monoblock design.

I have been looking at the pro amps too, in particular the xti - 1000, just have concerns about the cooling fans kicking in and being noisy. Any thoughts on the cooling fan issue?


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

geniusadam said:


> ok... great, so looking at just a few hundred dollars to power the fronts if i needed to...


You can look for some used amps too ...I got mine new/refurbished for $250, the A500 can be had for $199.

I made the spoilers instead of using the whole picture to make the post short ...but per your request, I have the whole picture now :whistling:


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

jakewash said:


> ... just have concerns about the cooling fans kicking in and being noisy. Any thoughts on the cooling fan issue?


I read that you can mod the Behringer 2500 to make it quiet, I never heard my Samson cooling fan working, maybe because is not to loud, or it never turn on because is not working hard or maybe because the movie is loud :whistling:

When looking for a pro-amp, you also need to consider the inputs; if it doesn't have RCA's probably you'll need a CleanArtBox to match the levels between the AVR and pro-amp to get the best out of it ...that's another reason I like the Samson Servo series and Behringer A500 "looks and RCA's" :yes:


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

Just throwing it out there, but there are some folks that will say a pro amp is not going to sound as good a home amp. They'll do fine for a sub, but for a regular speaker the difference may be small, but it's there. 

One of the guys I know that says he can hear a difference (and I've never made a comparison, and I have tin ears anyway, so I can neither confirm nor deny) says the best pro-amp for home theater duty, in his opinion, is the Behringer A500. As for regular home amps, Outlaw amps get the nod for value by another guy that was an amp designer. They're basically re-badged ATI amps. He cautions that the single channel amps from Outlaw (M2200?) are Class D ("digital") amps -- he hates Class D amps.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

all right, so i found a place that i can audition the monitor audio RS8's so that's my next destination. Thursday night. Another question for you guys, i know you want to keep a consistent sound stage across the front, but what about mixing paradigm monitor 11's with the studio CC-690?


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I wouldn't mix the studio series with the monitor series. They use different drivers, so they're going to have a different tonal/timbre balance. I'd be inclined to get the CC-290 or CC-390, or even better, a Titan Monitor.


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

I myself, think the Monitor 11s are close enough to the studio line in timbre that it would work very well, only you could decide if it is close enough to not be annoying to you.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

well an update... i went today and auditioned the RS8's... as a result i "bought" them... really i have them on loan until saturday morning. I immediately took them and stacked them up against the monitor 11's. I started with music, and all around the the RS8's took the cake. A much more neutral speaker. Delivered across the board in terms of sound, very nice. Then i took them and watched lord of the rings. I established that the monitor 11's make for a better movie speaker. This sounds weird, but what i found is the detailed high ends which can be too forward and overbearing in music make movie watching all that much more interesting. The RS8's sounded unenthusiastic about playing movies, which is fair because i think they were really designed to look to music on. Also of note, the build quality on the RS8's is far superior. With that said, i got a price on the whole package for the monitor series, and i'm going to compare that price with the silver series and see how they compare... then i'll make my decision, ideally, i think i would choose the 5.0 monitor series and 2.0 silver fronts, then just switch them for music and movies. Ahhh, if i only i was rich...


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

It is amazing what money can buy isn't it. It comes to diminishing returns and what you can afford vs what you desire.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

so for those who are following this, i ultimately went with the RS8's after all. I got a price comparable to the lowest price of the monitor 11's and every thing else lined up, so it made sense. Now that i have them home, i'm very happen with my decision, because they're pretty bright here, and if i had gone with the monitor 11's they might have been just entirely too much. So i picked up the center and fronts. What i would like to know is if anyone has heard the RSFX's, or i should consider the paradigm monitor surrounds. I think the price is comparable, so i'm not too worried about that. What do you all think would sound better?

Also, a quick question... how long do speaker need to be broken in?


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

Congrats on the MA's.

I would stick with the monitor audio line, just ensure a better timbre match.


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## geniusadam (Dec 30, 2008)

Yeah, I think the timbre would definitely be a concern, but I wonder if they would as good as the paradigms. It seems enough people have chosen different speakers for the surrounds. I was wondering their opinions.


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## jakewash (Nov 29, 2007)

I now the mismatch in timbre bothers me, others not so much, in the end it still comes down to your perceptions and how picky you will be with the sound differential.


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

geniusadam said:


> Yeah, I think the timbre would definitely be a concern, but I wonder if they would as good as the paradigms. It seems enough people have chosen different speakers for the surrounds. I was wondering their opinions.


The timbre match is critical on the front speakers (L+C+R), for the surrounds you can use other brand/models, but at least get the same for all surrounds (I was using JBL in the front and Polk as surrounds, but decided to replace Polks with JBL to match the fronts).

It would be nice if you can use the same speakers all around the room ...:yes:


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