# Book shelve speakers and center channel



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Hello, currently I have a 5.1 set up with all in ceiling speakers. I was looking at maybe replacing the LCR with the speakers below. I will need to keep the in ceiling for surounds because of space. Will this be a great improvement with my system. I have a Kreisel sub too.
http://hsuresearch.com/products/hc-1.html

Sorry I have been trying to copy the link for the book shelve speakers but it is not letting me. Once you open the link please click on speakers to get you to see the book shelve one.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

asere said:


> Hello, currently I have a 5.1 set up with all in ceiling speakers. I was looking at maybe replacing the LCR with the speakers below. I will need to keep the in ceiling for surounds because of space. Will this be a great improvement with my system.


Based on the average ceiling speakers, yes.


asere said:


> I have a Kreisel sub too.


Interesting. Ceiling speakers and a Kreisel sub. If you've paid up for that sub, why aren't you considering better mains? I haven't heard the HC-1, they might be fantastic, and Doc Hsu makes really good stuff, but it's hard to do fantastic at $250/pop. You'll have to listen...you'll have 30 days...


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

gazoink said:


> Based on the average ceiling speakers, yes.
> Interesting. Ceiling speakers and a Kreisel sub. If you've paid up for that sub, why aren't you considering better mains? I haven't heard the HC-1, they might be fantastic, and Doc Hsu makes really good stuff, but it's hard to do fantastic at $250/pop. You'll have to listen...you'll have 30 days...


At the time when I got in ceiling speakers I had no knowledge about what the mains should be. I later won kreisel here and made my day plus it really helped the in ceilings.
I'm on a budget and I once owned a Hsu sub that sounded fantastic and though of Hsu for the mains.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

asere said:


> At the time when I got in ceiling speakers I had no knowledge about what the mains should be. I later won kreisel here and made my day plus it really helped the in ceilings.
> I'm on a budget and I once owned a Hsu sub that sounded fantastic and though of Hsu for the mains.


Belated congratulations. That's what I call a WIN!


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

gazoink said:


> Belated congratulations. That's what I call a WIN!


Thank you!


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

How about a good sound bar for the mains is that recommended?


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

asere said:


> How about a good sound bar for the mains is that recommended?


Soundbars generally take the place of all three mains, and "Good" when it comes to soundbars starts at about $800. Actually that's kind of fair, look at the Yamaha product in that range, I don't have specifics. The only two I've ever heard that I'd consider "good" were up in the $1800 range, and by Definitive Technology and Golden Ear. Otherwise, the $400 soundbars are all pretty much not so good.

Your perfect match to the L/R is an identical C. Otherwise the C doesn't integrate well and just ends up being an isolated and different channel rather than part of the LCR triad.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

gazoink said:


> Soundbars generally take the place of all three mains, and "Good" when it comes to soundbars starts at about $800. Actually that's kind of fair, look at the Yamaha product in that range, I don't have specifics. The only two I've ever heard that I'd consider "good" were up in the $1800 range, and by Definitive Technology and Golden Ear. Otherwise, the $400 soundbars are all pretty much not so good.
> 
> Your perfect match to the L/R is an identical C. Otherwise the C doesn't integrate well and just ends up being an isolated and different channel rather than part of the LCR triad.


Thank you! If I decide to do away with the in ceiling mains I will most likely get the Hsu center and bookshelf ones for L,R.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

If you're running a 7.1 AVR for your 5.1 system then use your in-ceiling mains as front high. 

As for the sound bar option look into a passive clr soundbar the definitive ssa-42 or ssa-50 would be great. They also have an xtr-ssa-3 and xtr-ssa-5 but they lack some of the polished clean sound that the mythos speakers are known for.

Congrats on the sub!


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

rab-byte said:


> If you're running a 7.1 AVR for your 5.1 system then use your in-ceiling mains as front high.
> 
> As for the sound bar option look into a passive clr soundbar the definitive ssa-42 or ssa-50 would be great. They also have an xtr-ssa-3 and xtr-ssa-5 but they lack some of the polished clean sound that the mythos speakers are known for.
> 
> Congrats on the sub!


Yes my avr is 7.1 but the problem is if I use my in ceiling mains for front height with mains that are not in ceiling my system would be an 8.1 counting my surrounds. 
Thanks for the sound bar suggestions.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

asere said:


> Yes my avr is 7.1 but the problem is if I use my in ceiling mains for front height with mains that are not in ceiling my system would be an 8.1 counting my surrounds. Thanks for the soundbar suggestions.


Don't use the in-ceiling center


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

rab-byte said:


> Don't use the in-ceiling center


That's a thought. I wonder how it would sound with in ceiling as height and the in ceiling surrounds since the mains won't be in ceiling.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

It'll sound fine. 
Surround speakers should be above your ears and the fronts should, ideally, be at ear hight. 

You can check out Dolby and DTS specs for speaker placement for more info on that but as a generalization you're good.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

rab-byte said:


> It'll sound fine.
> Surround speakers should be above your ears and the fronts should, ideally, be at ear hight.
> 
> You can check out Dolby and DTS specs for speaker placement for more info on that but as a generalization you're good.


How far should the L,R be from the center channel? I'm thinking of placing the mains above the fireplace mantel below the tv. The L,R would be roughly two feet from the center channel.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Video here:
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer...urce=multi&utm_content=ce-ht-sym-speakersetup 

PDF here
http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/.../Dolby-Home-Theatre-Speaker-Guide-7.1-6-8.pdf 

25-35° off center for you fronts is ideal, this gets back to why a passive sound bar might make since.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Thank you for the link. I don't know what would be better in my case whether to go with Hsu center,L,R or Definitive sound bar. The sound bar according to specs it can replicate even the surrounds but I already have those.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

It "can" but dedicated surrounds are still usually better.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

rab-byte said:


> It "can" but dedicated surrounds are still usually better.


Yeah I know. I just wonder how it would sound replicating the surrounds and also using my dedicated surrounds at the same time. That is why I am leaning more towards the Hsu plus the Hsu speakers are vented.


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

Understand, the soundbar concept came from the need for compromise between appearance and a sound improvement. The compromise favors appearance, always. The synthetic surround of a soundbar does work to varying degrees. The Yamaha idea is one of the more dramatic, but the overall experience is fairly hyped sounding. I'll add my vote for real surround speakers wherever possible.

25-35 degrees for the L/R is good, but I use the screen as a guide. If the screen is 45 degrees, that will dictate the L/R position at or just outside of screen edge, unless it's an AT screen, which they almost never are. Turns out, wider L/R is more pleasing than narrower in 5.1 and up because of the presence of the center. In 2 channel, spacing is far more critical, as it's a trade between stage width and the size of the sweet spot with the two going in opposite directions.

Center should be dead center, above or below the screen is much less important. The screen above the fireplace is already too high, so either would work. Center below picture sometimes is more easily blocked by objects and people.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

That's why I like passive soundbars, they allow for easier placement and still let you utilize dedicated surrounds and external amplification. Scenarios like what the OP has are ideal for aesthetics and function since it looks like a soundbar, sounds like a mythos speaker, and images like separate CLR speakers. He will also only have to fish to one location; over the fireplace. Since the TV is already mounted in this location there should already be a path to route wires.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

When you run the Audyssey room EQ with a sound bar will it see it as one speaker or 3?


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

3


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

On Cnet I read an article for a review on the Definitive 50 sound bar and it mentions that Def recommends not using the avr's auto calibration but it did not say why. I wonder what that is all about.


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

My guess would be that it will read the surround speakers as out if phase, but that's a guess.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

rab-byte said:


> My guess would be that it will read the surround speakers as out if phase, but that's a guess.


 I read the manual online and it mentions not to do the auto set up on the avr because the ss produces surround sound from a single speaker and the auto set up will sound worse.
Won't work for me gotta have Audyssey ;-)


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## gazoink (Apr 17, 2013)

asere said:


> I read the manual online and it mentions not to do the auto set up on the avr because the ss produces surround sound from a single speaker and the auto set up will sound worse.
> Won't work for me gotta have Audyssey ;-)


You can have your Audyssey and your Definitive SSA50 too. 

When you set it up, disconnect (or don't connect) the surround connections, just use the LCR channels and go run Audyssey. It will detect three speakers only, and calibrate them. When you're all finished with Audyssey, connect the surround channels. They won't be Audyssey calibrated, so you may have to adjust levels a bit either by ear or with an SPL meter. And, without Audyssey, the surrounds may not match the LCR as well, but it'll be good enough for soundbar use. 

Of course, you don't have to ever connect to the SSA50 surround inputs at all, just use real surround speakers and calibrate Audyssey normally, and all will be glorious...kinda.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

gazoink said:


> You can have your Audyssey and your Definitive SSA50 too.
> 
> When you set it up, disconnect (or don't connect) the surround connections, just use the LCR channels and go run Audyssey. It will detect three speakers only, and calibrate them. When you're all finished with Audyssey, connect the surround channels. They won't be Audyssey calibrated, so you may have to adjust levels a bit either by ear or with an SPL meter. And, without Audyssey, the surrounds may not match the LCR as well, but it'll be good enough for soundbar use.
> 
> Of course, you don't have to ever connect to the SSA50 surround inputs at all, just use real surround speakers and calibrate Audyssey normally, and all will be glorious...kinda.


Do I still do the Audyssey 8 position calibration with the sound bar, have Audyssey finish and calculate and then connect the surrounds?


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## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Yes


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Sounds like a plan. I just need to see where the ss50 is on sale. It goes for 800+.
thanks for help.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I vote for the Hsu center and bookshelf speakers or three of the Hsu bookshelfs.
They should play great with the sub.

Yes congratulations on the win, that is a very nice piece of gear.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

chashint said:


> I vote for the Hsu center and bookshelf speakers or three of the Hsu bookshelfs.
> They should play great with the sub.
> 
> Yes congratulations on the win, that is a very nice piece of gear.


Obstacle. I measured the Hsu and they will be in the way of the tv sides and stand to far out on the mantle.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

How much is your budget for LCR? If it was my setup I would look at getting some used speakers as your dollar will go much farther. Years ago I had some Celestion SL3s that were small speaker but they were one of the best speakers they ever made and sounded awesome with a sub. The Yamaha NS-10M studio speakers were awesome sounding speakers and you can still find them if you look. The Yamaha NS500 speakers were reference studio speakers and you can get them for under $400 a pair. There are a lot of older speakers that will knock your socks off, and not cost you a lot of cash. :T


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

ellisr63 said:


> How much is your budget for LCR? If it was my setup I would look at getting some used speakers as your dollar will go much farther. Years ago I had some Celestion SL3s that were small speaker but they were one of the best speakers they ever made and sounded awesome with a sub. The Yamaha NS-10M studio speakers were awesome sounding speakers and you can still find them if you look. The Yamaha NS500 speakers were reference studio speakers and you can get them for under $400 a pair. There are a lot of older speakers that will knock your socks off, and not cost you a lot of cash. :T


My budget is no more than $500. I need to make sure they blend in well with my in ceiling surrounds and small enough to fit on the mantle and out of the way from the tv.

Here is a pic of were the mains would be and the pic below is my current set up. If I get mains for the mantle I will have a 7.1 set up and I'll just disconnect the in ceiling center one.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

asere said:


> My budget is no more than $500. I need to make sure they blend in well with my in ceiling surrounds and small enough to fit on the mantle and out of the way from the tv.
> 
> Here is a pic of were the mains would be and the pic below is my current set up. If I get mains for the mantle I will have a 7.1 set up and I'll just disconnect the in ceiling center one.


How tall can they be? How deep? I will see if I can find something that will fit your requirements. :T


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

ellisr63 said:


> How tall can they be? How deep? I will see if I can find something that will fit your requirements. :T


Two feet tall maybe shorter and dept no more than 7 inches. I've looked and no luck unless you get those small HTIB ones. Thank you


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## eclipse911t (Jan 8, 2013)

Can you use in-wall speakers?


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Here are some of the piano black ones on eBay... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-of-NHT...98?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item4181800952


Here are the super zero... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pair-Of-NHT...08?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item4620c837c4 This I believe is the center channel for the Super Zero... http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOW-HEAR-TH...32?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item5d4c99ef60


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

eclipse911t said:


> Can you use in-wall speakers?


I've thought about it but I'm concerned about the fireplace and what's behind the wall. I thought of the ssa 42 sound bar but I'm weird about not using Audyssey and with the bar eq from avr is a no no. 
Still considering it though.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Thanks for the link I'll look at considering them too.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

asere said:


> Thanks for the link I'll look at considering them too.


I tried to find some in white lacquer but I could only find one pair and they were not in that good of condition... The ones I linked appear to be in great shape and would match your tv, I think. My friend has my old Celestion SL3 which are in mint condition but I don't think he will part with them, plus he has 5 or 6 of them (can't remember how many I had).


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

ellisr63 said:


> I tried to find some in white lacquer but I could only find one pair and they were not in that good of condition... The ones I linked appear to be in great shape and would match your tv, I think. My friend has my old Celestion SL3 which are in mint condition but I don't think he will part with them, plus he has 5 or 6 of them (can't remember how many I had).


Thank you I appreciate you looking for me. I will ponder on which ones would be best and maybe even do in wall if I can be sure it'll be out of the fireplace way when it's on.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

asere said:


> Two feet tall maybe shorter and dept no more than 7 inches. I've looked and no luck unless you get those small HTIB ones. Thank you


Maybe search M&K the LCR 750 are 8 3/4 deep pretty close and they may have some smaller.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

Fellow shackster theJman is selling some Nht absolute zero speakers in the classifieds front 3 for $500.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

B- one said:


> Fellow shackster theJman is selling some Nht absolute zero speakers in the classifieds front 3 for $500.


Thank you I'll look into it.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

What about some nice bookshelf speakers on the wall? I would really try to go that way before in wall. This is my left rear surround(grill removed for effect). The point is, this thing weighs about 30lbs iirc, so you can really put about anything you want up there, and there are a zillion mounts to accommodate whatever you got. Plus it leaves the mantle open. Also, side screen effects and panning would be better next to the screen than below. Another thing too would be, if the depth isn't too deep, they might blend nicer being close to the depth of the display. Now the center channel.....


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> What about some nice bookshelf speakers on the wall? I would really try to go that way before in wall. This is my left rear surround(grill removed for effect). The point is, this thing weighs about 30lbs iirc, so you can really put about anything you want up there, and there are a zillion mounts to accommodate whatever you got. Plus it leaves the mantle open. Also, side screen effects and panning would be better next to the screen than below. Another thing too would be, if the depth isn't too deep, they might blend nicer being close to the depth of the display. Now the center channel.....


Thank you but wife would not like a speaker standing out like that near any wall lol.


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