# REW or Dirac Live: which tells the truth?



## FargateOne

Hello,
I am worried for my front right speaker or front right test signal. I'd like to know if it is nothing or if I have a real issue.

I performed a Dirac Live stereo calibration with NanoAVR-DL when I remarked that the curve of the right channel was very different in the low fr than the curves I was used to get with REW since many months now. 
For REW measurements, the hdmi output from the laptop is connected to video 3 input in the receiver and I think that the test signal comes from the laptop via rew software.

For Dirac, hdmi output from nano is connected to video 1 in the receiver. All others settings are the same (2 channels PCM, no sub, speakers to large, no EQ in the receiver, no xover) As you know, for Dirac, the source bluray must send a video active signal and is setted to PCM With Dirac is the test signal coming from the laptop via usb cable or is it already encoded somewere in nano, I don't know.

Of course, the mic remains at is first position for rew measurements.

Dirac gives average 9 positions but it seems irrelevant to me for my purpose.

Here is front right Dirac:








And front right from REW:









To see my problem here is the left from dirac:









And the left from REW:









In REW I see what I think that it is the roll-off limits of my left B&W (approx 45 hz) BUT I do not see it in Dirac for the right speaker.

I was afraid that I had burned a speaker. (see my journey to install Dirac !! I am still a little bit scared about that)) So I reverse left speaker to right position and right to left and remake measurements.
I got the same (more or less) curves.

Do I have reasons to be worried? Is it a problem with Dirac software? Or is it nothing to worries about.
Thank again for your help and patience.
View attachment few g ddirac.mdat


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## Phillips

First of all I would change the REW smoothing to NO SMOOTHING

Measuring can change from measurement to measurement with noise e.g. car driving past although you cant hear it.


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## FargateOne

Phillips said:


> First of all I would change the REW smoothing to NO SMOOTHING
> 
> Measuring can change from measurement to measurement with noise e.g. car driving past although you cant hear it.


Rew curves were setted to var smooth which, as you know doesn ot smooth low fr where I have my interrogation; also I joined the mdat file for Rew measurements.
I repeated the experiment 2 or 3 times with the same result in the right channel.
Also the room is asymetric but it is the same fact for rew and dirac.
So, I would like to undeerstand the difference.


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## John Stewart

I think you're right to be concerned FargateOne and I would definitely not use the target curve on your right speaker Dirac post to create a filter. It will add a lot of spl to the low end which may, to your point, already be there.
Contacting MiniDsp again might be your best bet. Dirac tests the left speaker first so if it was an issue with your settings, like a crossover being set and the sub in standby mode, it would show as a problem with the left speaker and possibly the right also. But to have the left good and the right not good seems to point to something else.


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## FargateOne

John Stewart said:


> I think you're right to be concerned FargateOne and I would definitely not use the target curve on your right speaker Dirac post to create a filter. It will add a lot of spl to the low end which may, to your point, already be there.
> Contacting MiniDsp again might be your best bet. Dirac tests the left speaker first so if it was an issue with your settings, like a crossover being set and the sub in standby mode, it would show as a problem with the left speaker and possibly the right also. But to have the left good and the right not good seems to point to something else.


Your answer confort me in the following. When I applied the filters set by Dirac to listen music, suddenly I heard on the right speaker (when tymbales were playing in the music) a low frequency noise not a sound. First I thought that it was a good result of Dirac making to hear something that was in the music but that I never heared before. Quickly I deactivated dirac filters because I suspected something wrong.
In fact, when I try Dirac for my 5.1 setting , those problems are not there because, the bass management in the receiver is set with a xover at 100hz and the left and right fronts have the same curves for the first and only sweep for the first measure with Dirac than in Rew with the xover to 100hz and no EQ.

Thank, I will contact Minidsp...

it is very very very difficult...I am near to give up Nano and Dirac


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## John Stewart

FargateOne said:


> In fact, when I try Dirac for my 5.1 setting , those problems are not there because, the bass management in the receiver is set with a xover at 100hz and the left and right fronts have the same curves for the first and only sweep for the first measure with Dirac than in Rew with the xover to 100hz and no EQ.
> 
> Thank, I will contact Minidsp...
> 
> it is very very very difficult...I am near to give up Nano and Dirac


Your receiver will send the extra low frequency info from Dirac to your subwoofer if you set the crossover AFTER taking Dirac measurements with the speakers set to full range. MiniDSPs recommendation is to have the speaker levels, distances and crossovers set with no additional avr processing before running running the sweeps. When you do this Dirac will look at each sub+speaker combination as a single full range speaker and generate the filter accordingly.

Don't give up yet. Its been a hassle I know, but wait until you've heard it working before you decide. 

Best of luck.


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## AudiocRaver

Referring to your first post, I agree that the difference you see for the right speaker measurements does not make sense. The REW and Dirac measurements should be a lot closer than that.

I recognize that you have had a frustrating path getting Dirac to work and that this thread represents a simplification to get Dirac working.

Just to be clear - all four measurements were taken without moving the mic and without changing system settings, right? Can you take the 4 measurements using the same HDMI input and no change of settings?


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## FargateOne

AudiocRaver said:


> Referring to your first post, I agree that the difference you see for the right speaker measurements does not make sense. The REW and Dirac measurements should be a lot closer than that.
> 
> I recognize that you have had a frustrating path getting Dirac to work and that this thread represents a simplification to get Dirac working.
> 
> Just to be clear - all four measurements were taken without moving the mic and without changing system settings, right? Can you take the 4 measurements using the same HDMI input and no change of settings?


Yes indeed the mic was at the same place for all measurements. I deliberatly play only one sweep with Dirac, save the project, and do the same with Rew all the reasons why left channel curves are similar but not the right one.

About HDMI input, there was a difference. Sweeps for Dirac arrives via VIDEO 1 input in Rotel but sweep from Rew went through VIDEO 3 input.

To John Stewart,
maybe I express myself poorly. What I wanted to point in my previous post is that I followed the NanoAvr owner manual instructions with the standard path : source to nano to receiver. Here EQ off but bass management active i.e. delay, SPL and xover at 100hz then speakers. Dirac measures speakers without filters but bass managed. So, for Rew check, I respect the same path for the sweep. To achieve that for Rew, I had to change some settings in the receiver to by sure that it did not add filters to the fronts channels but to keep the bass management. Doing so, in 5.1 setup, Rew reads the signal beginning in the sub and continuing in the speker as for Dirac. And, as expected the 2 curves look familiar.


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## AudiocRaver

FargateOne said:


> Yes indeed the mic was at the same place for all measurements. I deliberatly play only one sweep with Dirac, save the project, and do the same with Rew all the reasons why left channel curves are similar but not the right one.
> 
> About HDMI input, there was a difference. Sweeps for Dirac arrives via VIDEO 1 input in Rotel but sweep from Rew went through VIDEO 3 input.
> 
> To John Stewart,
> maybe I express myself poorly. What I wanted to point in my previous post is that I followed the NanoAvr owner manual instructions with the standard path : source to nano to receiver. Here EQ off but bass management active i.e. delay, SPL and xover at 100hz then speakers. Dirac measures speakers without filters but bass managed. So, for Rew check, I respect the same path for the sweep. To achieve that for Rew, I had to change some settings in the receiver to by sure that it did not add filters to the fronts channels but to keep the bass management. Doing so, in 5.1 setup, Rew reads the signal beginning in the sub and continuing in the speker as for Dirac. And, as expected the 2 curves look familiar.


Simplify more. No sub. No crossover. No bass management. Set speakers to large. Get Dirac working with the SIMPLEST 2.0 STEREO SYSTEM POSSIBLE.


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## John Stewart

FargateOne said:


> To John Stewart, maybe I express myself poorly. What I wanted to point in my previous post is that I followed the NanoAvr owner manual instructions with the standard path : source to nano to receiver. Here EQ off but bass management active i.e. delay, SPL and xover at 100hz then speakers. Dirac measures speakers without filters but bass managed. So, for Rew check, I respect the same path for the sweep. To achieve that for Rew, I had to change some settings in the receiver to by sure that it did not add filters to the fronts channels but to keep the bass management. Doing so, in 5.1 setup, Rew reads the signal beginning in the sub and continuing in the speker as for Dirac. And, as expected the 2 curves look familiar.


Please forgive my misunderstanding. I'm still not 100% sure that I do. Do you mean that you created a new Dirac 5.1 project with the xover at 100hz , and the sub on. Then made 1 sweep, and the Dirac measurement matched REW for the right speaker?


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## FargateOne

John Stewart said:


> Please forgive my misunderstanding. I'm still not 100% sure that I do. Do you mean that you created a new Dirac 5.1 project with the xover at 100hz , and the sub on. Then made 1 sweep, and the Dirac measurement matched REW for the right speaker?


Well, maybe it is me also.
I made 2 projects in Dirac following religiously the owner manual about the setting in my receiver.

The first project was for movies and my 5.1 channels. So , bass management must be active in the receiver and all internal eq filters to off in the receiver. 5 speakers set to small, sub on, xover 100hz. All curves by Dirac looked similar (familiar) with what I was used to see with rew when I was using the same bass management setting for my purpose with rew. So nothin g wrong with the front right channel.

Second project with Dirac to be able to have a second set of filters only for listenning music with front left and front right ONLY equed by Dirac. So, in the receiver I setted the speakers accordingly: FR left to Large, FR Right to large, center deactivated (none in the receiver), surrounds deactivated (none into the receiver) and SUB to None also in the receiver so xover deactivated. Followinf owner Rotel manual in this configuration ALL bass frequencies are send to the left and right speakers (even LFE if it is the case) I sett Dirac for stereo system so no subwoofer )subwoofer NOT tick in Dirac. So Dirac does not eq the lfe channel which is what I wanted.
I put the mic and run 9 rounds of measurements with Dirac. There was the right bad channel measures. I tried the filters and very soon the right speakers made noise sometime whe I lstenned music.
I stopped . I put the mic at MLP and take one Dirac sweep, saved the project and again I got the right channel faulty result (no sub, no xover etc.) . Whit the mic exactly at the same place, I connected the hdmi cable from laptop to video 3 of the receiver. I made one round of measures with REW and got the curves joined to my previous post.
Is it clearer ?


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## AudiocRaver

It is a mystery. I'm afraid I am out of ideas. I hate to have someone abandon Dirac Live disappointed, but I have no more ideas for you.

From your measurements, it looks like the right speaker is getting affected by the 100 Hertz crossover while you are taking the Dirac measurement, and is not affected by the crossover when you take the REW measurement. Why that would be I could not say.


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## FargateOne

AudiocRaver said:


> It is a mystery. I'm afraid I am out of ideas. I hate to have someone abandon Dirac Live disappointed, but I have no more ideas for you.
> 
> From your measurements, it looks like the right speaker is getting affected by the 100 Hertz crossover while you are taking the Dirac measurement, and is not affected by the crossover when you take the REW measurement. Why that would be I could not say.


Thank for your honesty.
I have open a ticket with MiniDsp and waiting for them.
We will see.


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## FargateOne

Dear Wayne,
I think that the following might of interest for every body.
The idea was gracefully suggested by a member of an other forum wherre I have posted the same.
Here's the suggestion:
1. Turn the subwoofer OFF to make sure that it's not somehow being used.
2. Connect your laptop for REEW measurement to the second input of the nanoAVR (not to a separate input of the receiver).
3. Check your signal-to-noise - on the Output and Levels screen, where is the meter sitting if you turn the output level all the way down?
4. If it's still doing the weird thing, swap the left and right channels at the speaker leads. Is the strange reading still on the right channel in DLCT, or did it follow the speaker? 

For all measurements the following are the same:
mic position
one sweep with Dirac
one sweep with REW
Receiver settings: front speakers to LARGE-Center to none-Surrounds to none- Subwoofer to NONE and just in case XOVER to OFF
levels left and right to 0db
Laptop to NanoAVR-DL via hdmi 2 input and from nano to receiver connected to Video 1 in the receiver (Rotel RSX-1562)

Now the procedure: One round with standard connections and one round with the front left output cables connected to the RIGHT speaker and the front right output cables to the LEFT speaker.

Now the results.
1- Standard connection

Left speaker Dirac









Right speker Dirac









There's the problem

2- Reversed connection (left channel speaker to right speaker and vis-versa
LEFT speaker dirac connected to the cables from the right output of the receiver)









Here again ...

Right speaker Dirac connected to the cables from the right outputs of the receiver









...but not here.

Now REW via Nano
1- LEFT speaker standard connection and REVERSED









2- RIGHT speaker standard connection and REVERSED









So , no problem with rew measures via nanoavr, no?

What is the conclusion and what to do?


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## John Stewart

If I read correctly the problem is with Dirac right channel with Stereo project and no problem with AVR, wires or speakers. 
Also no problem with Dirac front right channel with 5.1 project. 

So the question might be what is different between Stereo and 5.1 projects?

Were the Dirac input and output levels the same for each project and do you recall what they were?

You set nano to 5.1 for 5.1 project, yes? Did you set nano to Stereo or Auto for Stereo project?

I think any suggestion is a guess at this point, but very happy to try to understand and help while you wait for MiniDsp.


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## FargateOne

John Stewart said:


> If I read correctly the problem is with Dirac right channel with Stereo project and no problem with AVR, wires or speakers.
> Also no problem with Dirac front right channel with 5.1 project.


With 5.1 project Dirac does *not* show the mistake because each sweep sees the sub and the speaker as 1 speaker because bass management in the receiver has xover at 100 and speakers are set to small. Then the Dirac curve is very like Rew curves in the same situation



> So the question might be what is different between Stereo and 5.1 projects?


Indeed.



> Were the Dirac input and output levels the same for each project and do you recall what they were?


Approximatly the same : input more or less +5-6 db and output more or less -19 db



> You set nano to 5.1 for 5.1 project, yes? Did you set nano to Stereo or Auto for Stereo project?


That was Minidsp solution for one of many problems I got. I setted nano to stereo for stereo project and if I recall correctly maybe once it was set to auto.



> I think any suggestion is a guess at this point, but very happy to try to understand and help while you wait for MiniDsp.


Thanks. My patience with Dirac is very very limited now.


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## AudiocRaver

Just for the sake of clarity:

Once you get a 5.1 system working properly, assuming you do, you can use it for stereo and it will work fine. My request to get a 2.0 system working was simply to simplify and reduce variables for the sake of getting SOMETHING working properly, then work back up to a 5.1 setup.


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## John Stewart

FargateOne said:


> With 5.1 project Dirac does *not* show the mistake because each sweep sees the sub and the speaker as 1 speaker because bass management in the receiver has xover at 100 and speakers are set to small. Then the Dirac curve is very like Rew curves in the same situation


If this is correct, and assuming the same Dirac settings in both the set up program and on the device itself so as to eliminate them as a variables, then a 5.1 project with the front speakers set to large will show the same problem with the front right speaker and a Stereo project with the xover set to 100 will not have the problem.




FargateOne said:


> Approximatly the same : input more or less +5-6 db and output more or less -19 db


I'll see if I can reproduce your result over the weekend, but do not expect that I will be able to. You never know.



FargateOne said:


> My patience with Dirac is very very limited now.


I can only imagine. Hopefully MiniDSP will respond to you soon.


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## John Stewart

Hi FargateOne,
Tried to reproduce your results and could not. In each case left & right front had low frequency extension to 23Hz at 0db on Dirac's scale. No need to confirm with REW. 

Front Set to Large. All other speakers off in AVR. AVR set to normal listening volume setting of -18db. Dirac input approx +6 Dirac output -19db.

Tried with Nano set for 5.1, Stereo and Auto. No difference with any.

For your reference also:
Software Version: 1.1.0.5939

Hardware: 
nanoAVR-DL
Version v1.3
Firmware 1.22

I suppose you've already tried Refresh on the Nano Utility Program?

Sorry not more helpful.


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## FargateOne

John Stewart said:


> Hi FargateOne,
> Tried to reproduce your results and could not. In each case left & right front had low frequency extension to 23Hz at 0db on Dirac's scale. No need to confirm with REW.
> 
> Front Set to Large. All other speakers off in AVR. AVR set to normal listening volume setting of -18db. Dirac input approx +6 Dirac output -19db.
> 
> Tried with Nano set for 5.1, Stereo and Auto. No difference with any.
> 
> For your reference also:
> Software Version: 1.1.0.5939
> 
> Hardware:
> nanoAVR-DL
> Version v1.3
> Firmware 1.22
> 
> I suppose you've already tried Refresh on the Nano Utility Program?
> 
> Sorry not more helpful.


Thanks a lot. Yes I resetted Nano utility program and checked for las update. Waiting to hear from tech support, hopefully.


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## AudiocRaver

It is hard to believe how much trouble you have had just getting measurements that make sense. Sorry and wish we could help you better.

Are you making progress?


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## FargateOne

AudiocRaver said:


> It is hard to believe how much trouble you have had just getting measurements that make sense. Sorry and wish we could help you better.
> 
> Are you making progress?


Sir,
your message touched me. Thank you very much for asking. A thicket is open with Minidsp. They think that my results are odd. I have send them my projects files and waiting for their feedback. Someone elsewhere suspects very low frequencies unaudible.
Others think that the main suspect should be the receiver ( I was one of them at the beginning). But one way or an other, nothing explains why the sweep signal of dirac passing through the same path than rew doesn't give the same curve for the right speaker channel. 
I do not use the nano for the moment. As someone said, it is prudent not to use the results neither for stereo nor for 5.1 setting because dirac could over compensate the low fr response of the right speaker. 
Even if I have a 5.1 project who seems correct, I am not in the mood to try it.; I would not be objective in my listenning. As every one knows, our brain can trick us !! I prefer to wait and see if the problem can be solved or not.
Stay tuned...


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## FargateOne

An update.

It seems that the problem comes from the bluray ( I bought it in nov 2015 all firmwares updated). I disconnected it. Then I made Dirac meaurements with the following configuration: laptop-NanoAvrDL-receiver (no bluray no cable box). The front right channel curve was correct. I would have like to check with Rew but for an unknown reason I couldn't send Rew sweep signal in this system. It was like if windows 10 did not send any sound from the laptop to the nano. Strange, because Dirac software is installed in the same laptop and worked well.

Then I did a reset to factory default in bluray. I connected it to the nano and nano to the receiver and laptop to nano. I did a Dirac measure and the front speaker curve response looks fine. As if the problem would be solved.

I do not see the logic in all this. How is it possible that when bluray is not passing any audio signal (only image via hdmi) it can affect the bass in the right channel signal send by Dirac to the receiver via Nano. AFAIK, the signal from laptop or from nano does not go to the bluray before to return into nano and to continue to the receiver!!??:dontknow:.

In front of such mysteries, I am still debating if I continue my journey.:|

I did not take chance and I sent the bluray to repair if any is needed. It is on warranty.

Could this be an explanation knowing that my settop box was connected to cambridge (which is the same platform as Oppo BTW)?
http://aldoussystems.blogspot.ca/2010/07/why-edid-management-in-hdmi-is-so.html:dontknow:

BTW why Rew was not affected by all this ? An other mystery.


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## John Stewart

That is really strange. How did to ever think to disconnect the blue ray for a test?

Regarding REW not working through the same signal chain, was the usb disconnected from the nano at that time? Also I've noticed that sometimes after creating and installing filters for the nano a power cycle of the nano is needed for it to pass a signal. Always with the usb disconnected from the nano.


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## FargateOne

John Stewart said:


> That is really strange.


You bet! Imagine for me!



> How did to ever think to disconnect the blue ray for a test?


Technical support of MiniDsp.



> Regarding REW not working through the same signal chain, was the usb disconnected from the nano at that time?


No, I will keep that in mind.




> Also I've noticed that sometimes after creating and installing filters for the nano a power cycle of the nano is needed for it to pass a signal. Always with the usb disconnected from the nano.


OK thank for the tip. Please can you explain what you mean by " a power cycle of nano is needed" ? Do you mean disconnect and connect again the nano or to put on and off every devices of the chain (bdplayer-nano-receiver-display)?


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## FargateOne

ALLSMARTLIFE said:


> you can check your speaker line Is there a problem？


No, as I said in a previous post, I switched cable and the had followed the cable so not speaker fault


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## John Stewart

FargateOne said:


> Please can you explain what you mean by " a power cycle of nano is needed" ? Do you mean disconnect and connect again the nano or to put on and off every devices of the chain (bdplayer-nano-receiver-display)?


Just the nano only.


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## AudiocRaver

John Stewart said:


> Just the nano only.


Ditto. This was a definite problem with some systems that was fixed by a nano power reset as John suggests, although not necessarily a nano-caused problem, a nano power reset would fix it. A more recent firmware version for the nano made the whole problem go away, I THINK. I tested a beta version that seemed to work. The latest firmware from miniDSP should cover it.


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## FargateOne

AudiocRaver said:


> It is hard to believe how much trouble you have had just getting measurements that make sense. Sorry and wish we could help you better.
> 
> Are you making progress?


Can you imagine my luck: I bought a new A/V receiver and a new bd player with the intention to get someday nanoavr-dl. After all my troubles (see my previous post) it seemed that the mystery should come from the Cambridge 752BD. MiniDsp team is one of the best company that you can make business with: the are honest, dedicated, through, patient, fair,etc.
To be fair with them I decided to return the bd player to the retail store because, besides the measurements problem for the right channel signal, I suspected that the bd player was messing with the sound: unstable sound stage, unstable tones or quality or "quantity", sudden changes in treble, or in medium,"short" bass. 
But I had no means to be objective or to be sure. Are those suspected problem came from my imagination? I could count only on my ears and my brain! (... as many others here I know that our brain can trick us.)
Maybe I was fool! :sad::coocoo:
Guess what:
Cambridge just told to my retail seller that my unit has a problem that can not be fixed and they will replace it !!!
:sweat:I am not (?!) insane !:nono: Neither NanoAvr-Dl BTW ! But I have a curse with electronics!

Bravo MiniDsp:sn:
Bravo Cambridge:sn:
Bravo Rew:sn:


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## willis7469

Oh happy day!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AudiocRaver

FargateOne said:


> I am not (?!) insane !


What an ordeal! We are tickled that this horrific mystery has been resolved.

The possibility still exists that there is a LITTLE insanity involved in your choice of hobby and your decision to hang with us, but we are glad for your company and will continue to assist however we can.


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## John Stewart

FargateOne said:


> I am not (?!) insane !:nono: Neither NanoAvr-Dl BTW


Seriously, you have the patience of a saint. Someday I hope to read your thoughts on Dirac!!!


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## Andrew Slater

This may be a old thread but I suspect Dirac uses a different type of sweep than rew and adds to the power responce during certain mic positions of the calibration.

I am not saying it is fact but it is a strong hunch.

Seems when I run sweeps with Dirac some of the mic positions have more energy applied than others .

I would try doing a comparison with two mics one using rew and one w Dirac and let Dirac generate the sweeps


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## FargateOne

thanks to answer!


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