# Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Long story short... we are renovating the house to sell at some point in a year or two, and my wife has agreed to let me move the HT into a bigger room. Problem is, she's making decisions faster than the light from my plasma can reach my spinning head (so I have little time for research today).

I greatly appreciate any help you can offer here, or in pointing me to appropriate threads. TIA!!!


I would like to improve acoustics beyond just bare walls and floor as much as possible. Would it make sense to construct a room-within-a-room for this scenario? What are the benefits?
I plan on changing out my B&W's for the Revel Ultima Salons and a new Voice-2 center which will sit on a new stand under the wall-mounted TV. Should the centerline of the screen be at eye level?
What are the pitfalls of buying used HT seating. I need only 2 or 3.
More questions later, but I'd welcome any suggestions in advance!

*EDIT:* Just to try and collect my upgrade activities in one place, I've included links to some of my related threads:

My Butt is Sick and Tired
Where, Oh Where Does My New Center Go?
A Sound Renovation for the Green Room

And here's a teaser of things yet to come! (lifted from the REW Online Help Manual)


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Room within a room is really only for sound isolation. If you want to keep sound out or sound in that is the best option.
A compromise is needed for the centre channel. you ideally want it at the same height as the tweeters on your mains but that makes the screen to high in most cases.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Don't overlook Chane speakers. He has his pre-order special going on now for his latest iteration of the A5. And should come out with his much anticipated L7 with matching center by the end of the year. These are expected to be a very big step up. Just a thought. I do know that Sonnie just bought another pair of the A5's for his room.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> Room within a room is really only for sound isolation. If you want to keep sound out or sound in that is the best option.


Thanks for your patience! I could have looked it up myself, but am in a hurry to shorten the learning curve.



tonyvdb said:


> A compromise is needed for the centre channel. you ideally want it at the same height as the tweeters on your mains but that makes the screen to high in most cases.


So is center-line tweeter alignment the reason for risers? Or are risers used as a space to create a bass trap?


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Tonto said:


> Don't overlook Chane speakers. He has his pre-order special going on now for his latest iteration of the A5. And should come out with his much anticipated L7 with matching center by the end of the year. These are expected to be a very big step up. Just a thought. I do know that Sonnie just bought another pair of the A5's for his room.


No doubt Chane's are top notch! I plan on eventually getting some for my surrounds. I should have explained the center needs to match my _existing_ Salons. :R


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Lumen said:


> So is center-line tweeter alignment the reason for risers? Or are risers used as a space to create a bass trap?


It can serve both reasons.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

While the riser is a great bass trap, the main reason is to give the people in the row behind a better/unobstructed view of the scree,.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Thanks, Tony! Two down and ??? many more to go. I guess a room-within-a-room would bust any ill-conceived budget I came up with. Worse yet, the bigger room would now become smaller. If we were staying there long-term, sound isolation would be higher on my list because the resonating walls definitely need reinforcement.


I obviously need to keep realistic expectations about the new room, especially since we could move shortly after it's finished. So aesthetics come in a distant second to functionality. I'm pretty sure that a good viewing experience is controlled by lighting and seating distance. Good sound is controlled by speaker positioning and acoustics - first position, then acoustic treatment, then signal processing from the likes of Audyssey, etc. I at least plan to distance seating far enough from back wall to properly locate surrounds.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is: 
If my wife wants to put up this paneling, is there something I can put behind it to help acoustics?
What's involved in building a riser and is that something a novice could do?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

That paneling wont absorb or let through any sound so putting anything behind it wont make much difference. As far as what to put in the walls Roxal safe n sound is my goto product.

Are we talking a speaker riser or a riser for seating? both are easy to build just use 2x6 boards for the frame and glue and screw 3/4" plywood to the top to keep vibration away.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Both, I think. If the seats are at floor level, then ears should be about level with the (horizontal) center channel IF it just sits on top shelf of wide rack. That would put the center of the screen a little above eye level. The mains tweeters would be a little above that. Vertical distance from center channel tweeter to mains tweeter would be a foot or two! So my setup will never be ideal. I think I know what you're saying, though. From what I can remember, Sonnie's CCC has a riser for both the center channel and the seats, which effectively puts the mains below sea level so-to-speak. But not sure if the same principles apply because his Martin Logans don't have a single tweeter. :R


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Ive got my mains below the screen and that in turn raised my screen so the centre of the screen is definitely above the "ideal" height. But my tweeters are at just below ear height, I have them angled back slightly so everyone gets the right amount of highs. I just have my mains on some black square milk crates coverd in a black cloth LOL


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

I have been thinking about front of room traps for a while. Of course, your HT screen gets priority. In my room, I will move it up so that I have front room traps to above ear height. In your case, you might consider traps across the lower part of the front wall below the screen down to the floor.

Reason, absorption rather than reflection from the front wall illuminates reflections that cause Imaging to wonder with different notes and tones with some instruments. Also quickens the decay of nodes and low-mid frequency reflections, getting them to die down quickly. It will definitely improve the impression of fast bass and will improve Imaging and detail.

I am getting ready to build a set, will do a build thread, but my design prioritizes 2 channel sound while allowing for a good home theater set up also.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Wayne wrote:



> I am getting ready to build a set, will do a build thread, but my design prioritizes 2 channel sound while allowing for a good home theater set up also.


I think that is what about 99% of us are looking for!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

I'll vote for that! Especially now that I need to merge my 2ch and HT systems. Looking forward to Wayne's investigative prowess and write-up!
BTW: wifey has slowed to the speed of sound :R


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## Todd Anderson (Jul 24, 2009)

Kind of a random comment... but your chosen L/R speakers are about 4 1/2 feet tall. I'd be inclined to do everything I can to ditch the horizontal center channel and get third Ultima Salon in its place.

Just in my opinion, your Samsung PN60F8500 won't have viewing angle issues (if the TV position is slightly higher)... and the benefit of using an actual tower in place of a center channel will be pretty huge.


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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

I would agree with Todd here, and to take it a step further, ditch the TV and get front projection with an acoustically transparent screen. Then put that third Salon behind the screen. I'm sure the wife will love the idea . . .


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Eeek, again!! If only I had the funds at the moment to go projection. I'm limited to about $3k for everything. If I could find a buyer for the Salons and the B&W's, I'd try to get matched speakers for a 7.1 setup. Already have the electronics to drive them. I guess I should have let on a little earlier that the bigger room is only marginally so (13x11). 

Sometimes the truth hurts, and you're right about the height. TheSalons weren't meant to be HT speakers. I just hate losing an arm and a leg on them. I also hate the act of selling - just no good at it. 

So it seems as if this venture is done before it begins! Can you say "easily discouraged?" Methinks it best to save up for the goodies and just get some used seats for now, especially since we're in temporary quarters until we sell. 

While I see-saw on the options, guess I'll start planning the speaker layout, as limited as that may be. Somehow I need to get those surrounds a little over ear height and behind the LP. I remember seeing a recommended angle and range, but don't have it handy at the moment. I do know where a sketch pad and pencil are!


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

My traps are not moving at light speed, sorry to say. Still engulfed in the DDRC88A_BM review. The traps are next.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey Louie ol buddy. Not sure which angles you're after, but I've got these...















Maybe 25-40deg above ear height. 


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Perfect! Thanks for that my good friend Willis! I appreciate the help, though I should probably have looked it up myself. :sneeky:

So if it were your coin, would you:
(a) lean more toward getting the center channel for the uber performing Revels, or 
(b) Trade the Revels and B&Ws in for a matched system, say Golden Ear Tritons or an amazingly high bang-for-the-buck Chane A2Rx system?​


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Wayne wrote:



> The traps are next.


I think Sonnie has a different plan Wayne. From the looks of it, the traps can wait!

Luman wrote:



> if it were your coin


Since you are planning to move, I wouldn't spend any reckless money. I'd put it away & plan on investing in the next place. Just make sure it has a room that will accommodate a HT. My wife & I went through so many houses until we found one that would work...not just in the family room, but for a dedicated space as well. I was surprised at how many homes don't work at all. Open floor plans are everywhere!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey Lou. Calculating response. Having a funeral and a birthday party during the same day. Lots going on. 


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

Tonto said:


> Wayne wrote:
> Since you are planning to move, I wouldn't spend any reckless money. I'd put it away & plan on investing in the next place.


I'd agree with this. Maybe if there's something you can add that will be easy to use in the next place, you can go ahead with it now, but I'd try to save that budget for when you're ready to go in the new house. It would be frustrating to get there and have more equipment you need to sell to switch out for something else better suited to the new layout.

Plan big for the next space! AT screen and 3 identical L/C/Rs!


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Hey there Louie, I see you are in the midst of a conundrum. Having visited your home and senior living room as well as the equipment that's slated to be in their I have a rather slanted thought on how you should proceed in this matter. Last time we spoke it was clear that you do wish to quite possibly sell this house after fixing it up a bit and in that vein I would say spend your money on making the house salable first and use the equipment that you now have two make a modest home theater in your main room. While it is not huge it is definitely larger than one you had and I think could work much better frankly.

Building a room inside of a room or making all sorts of accoutrement to place it here and there will definitely detract from your reconditioning which may allow you to get into a better place. I agree that your mains are not necessarily meant for home theater but they would work pretty well and I would hate to see you rid yourself of those most excellent speakers that you may be able to use in your next home. There is a thing called buyers remorse coupled with the fact that buying another home may preclude you from replacing those fine speakers.
So what am I rambling on about? I think I would move everything into your living room set it up as best as possible by mixing and matching what you have and possibly getting a few additional absorption panels that would help you with any bounce if you do not have enough already. By using the salons for left and right duty and maybe putting a full-sized B&W between them, with all the processing you now possess you might be able to make this work. Further doing it this way would save you a ton of money that you could either put into fixing up what you are now trying to sell or putting in the bank and getting ready for your next abode.

By the way, I'm always here to help if you need someone to move stuff around with you.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Hey Lou. Calculating response. Having a funeral and a birthday party during the same day. Lots going on



An emotional combination. Best wishes and sincerest condolences.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> ...Last time we spoke it was clear that you do wish to quite possibly sell this house after fixing it up a bit and in that vein I would say spend your money on making the house salable first and use the equipment that you now have two make a modest home theater in your main room. While it is not huge it is definitely larger than one you had and I think could work much better frankly...
> 
> ...I think I would move everything into your living room set it up as best as possible by mixing and matching what you have and possibly getting a few additional absorption panels that would help you with any bounce if you do not have enough already. By using the salons for left and right duty and maybe putting a full-sized B&W between them, with all the processing you now possess you might be able to make this work. Further doing it this way would save you a ton of money that you could either put into fixing up what you are now trying to sell or putting in the bank and getting ready for your next abode.


As you and others who care may have guessed, this project has fizzled. I'm only allowed the most basic of HT setups to keep the big/main room of the house uncluttered for showing. I'm leaning toward keeping the current room, saving boatloads of moving and setup time. Getting rid of the Salons is a lot more painful than dumping the B&W's when considering depreciation and performance. But one or the other sets must go due to space constraints. Do you feel sorry for me yet (lol)?


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

More than you can imagine.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

AudiocRaver said:


> More than you can imagine.




This...


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Absolutely Lou !! It will be a sad day indeed.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Hi guys, and thanks for the support! :neener:
Each of you has helped me advance along my HT learning at some point. Now the time has come to exercise some of that knowledge in pursuit of even better sound. Yes, I'm one of those pseudo HT nuts who places audio on a higher pedestal than video (at least until such time as I can afford for the latter's funds to surpass the former's). You will all laugh-out-loud very long and hard to find out that I am running my Salons mismatched to a B&W center channel in that tiny Green room of mine! The Salons are quite the behemoths in that cramped space, and wouldn't fare much better in the marginally larger "Eeek" room. But whether a product of my psychoacoustic imagination or my exceptionally well-honed, speaker setup skillset (hah-hah), the Salons convincingly disappear in outright audiophile fashion when reproducing up-to-snuff program material. So why oh why does dissatisfaction prevail? One Word. *MMD*! *M*ushy *M*ovie *D*ialogue. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the source material, but I can't seem to understand dialogue as easily and recently as a few months ago. 

Dirac Live calibrations don't drift the way a capacitors can, so I need to ask myself, "What's changed?" On the other hand, maybe I've slowly acclimated to the Salons! What was initially a dance over superior sound on 2ch music and multichannel concert videos, has become a convulsion over mostly incoherent murmuring. No blown tweets or mids. No changes in speaker position. My plan of attack is to first try a source with a known-good center signal. Then try a recalibration if that fails to turn up anything.

Those who don't know me may wish I'd just go back away rather than try to decipher my ramblings. BUT MY NAME IS LOU, AND i LOVE MY SELF!! 
So I stay put. Hah! Or as the _Knights Who Say "Nee"_ would say, I now say to you: "Nee!"

Winding down and back to the point...
My system needs more tweaking. This holiday weekend I plan to revamp the room and speaker setup. The room has become too dead as I've shoehorned in more and more bass traps. Time to back off on the wall panels as well. Then there's the speaker _Combo Abomino_ - time to match the front set again, even if it means reverting back to the B&W's or shelling out some mean green for the Revel center. I've seen some used ones cross eBay recently for close to a song. Just couldn't pull the trigger so soon after Christmas and family Birthdays. 


...while this is a rough draft of unfinished work, it's quittin' time on Friday afternoon and I need to head out the door.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Lumen said:


> Hi guys, and thanks for the support! :neener:
> Each of you has helped me advance along my HT learning at some point. Now the time has come to exercise some of that knowledge in pursuit of even better sound. Yes, I'm one of those pseudo HT nuts who places audio on a higher pedestal than video (at least until such time as I can afford for the latter's funds to surpass the former's). You will all laugh-out-loud very long and hard to find out that I am running my Salons mismatched to a B&W center channel in that tiny Green room of mine! The Salons are quite the behemoths in that cramped space, and wouldn't fare much better in the marginally larger "Eeek" room. But whether a product of my psychoacoustic imagination or my exceptionally well-honed, speaker setup skillset (hah-hah), the Salons convincingly disappear in outright audiophile fashion when reproducing up-to-snuff program material. So why oh why does dissatisfaction prevail? One Word. *MMD*! *M*ushy *M*ovie *D*ialogue. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the source material, but I can't seem to understand dialogue as easily and recently as a few months ago.
> 
> Dirac Live calibrations don't drift the way a capacitors can, so I need to ask myself, "What's changed?" On the other hand, maybe I've slowly acclimated to the Salons! What was initially a dance over superior sound on 2ch music and multichannel concert videos, has become a convulsion over mostly incoherent murmuring. No blown tweets or mids. No changes in speaker position. My plan of attack is to first try a source with a known-good center signal. Then try a recalibration if that fails to turn up anything.
> ...


My room is also on the verge of to dead... I would like to make some diffusion panels like GIK has for placing over my absorption panels. I wish they would offer kits of just the wood with the pattern cutout for DIYers too.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Lumen said:


> ...Yes, I'm one of those pseudo HT nuts who places audio on a higher pedestal than video...


Huh? There is another way of looking at it?



> ...the Salons convincingly disappear in outright audiophile fashion when reproducing up-to-snuff program material...


Enough said. The Salons stay put.



> Dirac Live calibrations don't drift the way a capacitors can, so I need to ask myself, "What's changed?"


You? The atmosphere in your part of the world? Did you cross into a parallel dimension (this can be difficult to determine; PM for details - (joking, of course))?



> On the other hand, maybe I've slowly acclimated to the Salons! What was initially a dance over superior sound on 2ch music and multichannel concert videos, has become a convulsion over mostly incoherent murmuring. No blown tweets or mids. No changes in speaker position. My plan of attack is to first try a source with a known-good center signal. Then try a recalibration if that fails to turn up anything.


Good plan!



> Or as the _Knights Who Say "Nee"_ would say, I now say to you: "Nee!"


Bring us a shrubbery!



> Winding down and back to the point...
> My system needs more tweaking. This holiday weekend I plan to revamp the room and speaker setup. The room has become too dead as I've shoehorned in more and more bass traps. Time to back off on the wall panels as well. Then there's the speaker _Combo Abomino_ - time to match the front set again, even if it means reverting back to the B&W's or shelling out some mean green for the Revel center. I've seen some used ones cross eBay recently for close to a song. Just couldn't pull the trigger so soon after Christmas and family Birthdays.


Keep us posted. Life is a series of modifications to one's audio system.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lou. How your ramblings make me feel....there are others like me. First, I'm jealous of you for having the salons. Second, despite many complaints of movie dialogue intelligibility, I might be suspicious of the B&W in general. Blasphemy? Maybe but my jbl center never has me guessing, and I'm 14' away. I would definitely try to pick up the revel center. I'm a believer in timber matching and the haters might attack but I don't care. I'm pretty sure they're just cheap and lazy. Being matched probably won't become the be all end all for intelligibility in your room but having as seamless a front stage as you can, won't hurt. Try some familiar music in pro logic where the center is put to good use and see how that works. If the B&W is still not clear I might be assured it's the offender. If not, maybe it's the voices.....in my head. 


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Hmm. Thought I strayed off-topic, so your kind words and suppressed laughter are appreciated! Conditions are poor from technical standpoints such as mismatched tweeter height, forced compromises in speaker positioning, etc., etc., etc. I remember now that I edited my house curve about the time MMD reared its ugly head. Sounded good at the time with a limited range of source - not demo - material because I try to tune my curve for average recordings. I think that shows "better" is sometimes just "different" and other times actually worse.

Maybe this discussion does belong in my Green Room thread, but any time taken away from home projects does inject a sense of haste into the room/system recalibration I plan for this weekend. So haste is on topic!

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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

If you suspect the B&W center is the source of your dialogue troubles, run on into your processor and tell it you don't have a center channel. Then your Salons will phantom-image the stuff intended for the center channel. Take a listen to some of the material you've struggled with and see if things improve. This might be a way to narrow down where the problem really lies. It will only cost you half an hour of your time and would help prove or disprove the choice of center channel being the source of the trouble. Just a thought.

You might also want to use REW and measure your center channel response at your listening seat. Perhaps there's a huge floor or ceiling bounce suckout causing the problem. If that is the case, EQ wouldn't be able to completely take care of it, and neither would another speaker placed in the same location.

Edit: Just saw your new post above. Excessive output in the low frequencies can certainly mask the higher frequencies important for intelligibility. Do you have problems in quiet scenes with just dialogue, or mostly in louder, action-filled scenes?


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I would have to most humbly submit that the B&W center will never sound match the Revels as they are two different beasties. Well one set is a beast and the other maybe lives more closely to the moniker of delicate flower. Having been blown away by the Revels and having lived with B&W's I can say with some authority that you either have to pick all B&W in the front stage or all Salon. Now as suggest above, in that green room of love, I would most heartily suggest using phantom mode for the center as the somewhat monolithic Salons will take over the room and spread a sound stage like few others, excepting mine of course. (0)

When traveling through the valley of the downsized, it becomes clear that some sacrifices need to be made. I think you are correct in that there might be a tad too many silences hanging about which may cause some lack of life in your music library but then again, they also keep the outside clatter to a minimum. I am lucky in that my room is somewhat isolated from everything so once I enter the Tranquility Base, and shut the hatch door, I am blissfully unaware of the rest of the world....well until the dog barks and wants to come in and play fetch with a spare interconnect cable....or when the cat wants to be petted and will sit on my head until I give in, but those are mere technicalities of course. 

To parse this missive down to less than Dickensian size, I would say, DO NOT get rid of the Salons unless you feel you will never have a proper room again in this life or the next one just to be sure. It would be very difficult to replace them by us mere mortals which it seems you may have become. I say that in a most loving fashion of course. Apparently like many of us you have to temporarily step down from Mount Aurolympus and cleverly mix among the mortals of this time and space. Good Luck ooo Great One !!


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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

I certainly agree that the Revel center would be a better match for the Salons, and I would head that way too if I were you. But depending on the source of the problem, your intelligibility may not improve just by moving to the matching Revel center. That's all I'm sayin'


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

bkeeler10 said:


> If you suspect the B&W center is the source of your dialogue troubles, run on into your processor and tell it you don't have a center channel. Then your Salons will phantom-image the stuff intended for the center channel. Take a listen to some of the material you've struggled with and see if things improve. This might be a way to narrow down where the problem really lies. It will only cost you half an hour of your time and would help prove or disprove the choice of center channel being the source of the trouble. Just a thought.
> 
> You might also want to use REW and measure your center channel response at your listening seat. Perhaps there's a huge floor or ceiling bounce suckout causing the problem. If that is the case, EQ wouldn't be able to completely take care of it, and neither would another speaker placed in the same location.
> 
> Edit: Just saw your new post above. Excessive output in the low frequencies can certainly mask the higher frequencies important for intelligibility. Do you have problems in quiet scenes with just dialogue, or mostly in louder, action-filled scenes?



If that's just a thought, I like the way you think! And I'd like to apologize for the lack of any hard science or links. many of you talented folk out there help others transform themselves into REW-literates. I would love a walk-through of some of its advanced (to me) features. For now though I may just need to massage my house curve.



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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

bkeeler10 said:


> If you suspect the B&W center is the source of your dialogue troubles, run on into your processor and tell it you don't have a center channel. Then your Salons will phantom-image the stuff intended for the center channel. Take a listen to some of the material you've struggled with and see if things improve. This might be a way to narrow down where the problem really lies. It will only cost you half an hour of your time and would help prove or disprove the choice of center channel being the source of the trouble. Just a thought.





willis7469 said:


> Try some familiar music in pro logic where the center is put to good use and see how that works. If the B&W is still not clear I might be assured it's the offender. If not, maybe it's the voices.....in my head.



Both of your suggestions are worthy experiments! 
And speaking of voices, I was fooled into leaving the LP a few times in stereo mode to make sure certain vocals weren't coming from the center channel. IOW the Mains threw a convincing stage and imaged well, BUT only in the context of that small space. I'm amazed they image at all in there! I'll have to upload a picture later.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Lumen said:


> Hmm. Thought I strayed off-topic, so your kind words and suppressed laughter are appreciated! Conditions are poor from technical standpoints such as mismatched tweeter height, forced compromises in speaker positioning, etc., etc., etc. I remember now that I edited my house curve about the time MMD reared its ugly head. Sounded good at the time with a limited range of source - not demo - material because I try to tune my curve for average recordings. I think that shows "better" is sometimes just "different" and other times actually worse.
> 
> Maybe this discussion does belong in my Green Room thread, but any time taken away from home projects does inject a sense of haste into the room/system recalibration I plan for this weekend. So haste is on topic!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


While the others were thinking about timbre-matching (love you guys, yer the BEST!), target curve is where I ended up.

Bryan's phantom center suggestion is excellent. I run that way all the time and love it.

A target curve suggestion: Add a tiny bump, 0.5 dB to 1 dB, between 2 kHz and 3 kHz.

My target curve file includes
1000 hz, 0 db
2000, +1
3000, +1
5000, 0

A lot of speakers have a little "liveliness" lift in that region by design. If 1 dB sounds a little extreme, try 0.5 dB. Speech intelligibility will be greatly improved.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Good morning everyone.

These are some interesting thoughts to be sure. It is my strong opinion that using a center channel in larger rooms is a must and in general that center channel should be voice matched to the mains. This is as we all know oft times not easily done as most center channel speakers are smaller and less capable than the mains which is odd considering the amount of work the center channel does. As Mr. Lumens room is somewhat smaller, there is no real reason to use a center. Having heard the Salon's, I can say that they are not as lively in the presence region as the B&W's and I would imagine if it comes down to it they may be too much speaker for this room. I know that sounds silly but they are substantial and may need a bit more room to breathe. The B&W's are well sized for the green room and leave substantive space on all sides although having said that, i think Lumen is not overly pleased with their mild tubby-ness in the lower ranges. 

This is such a hard hobby made more complex by all the new digital gadgets and geegaws. I do hope our musicologist buddy does find a way to make everything work to his satisfaction.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

AudiocRaver said:


> A target curve suggestion: Add a tiny bump, 0.5 dB to 1 dB, between 2 kHz and 3 kHz.
> 
> My target curve file includes
> 1000 hz, 0 db
> ...


Huge help and appreciated! Jogged my memory of a chart I came across which defined typical sounds (wooly, bright, etc.) in terms of frequency. A google search turns up many variations just as useful. 

Just using this space as a notepad for the moment. I also remember dialing in a 2-3dB cut from around 2kHz-4kHz to tame perceived harshness. Should've consulted the chart instead of tuning by ear on limited source material. Or better yet, commit it to memory. Anyway, I can always develop different curves for different quality sources by taking advantage of my processor's ability to download different curves. But having to connect a laptop to run Dirac Live/LE is inconvenient. I'll have to dig out he user manual to see if I can download from a thumb drive instead.

Relationship between mains position and toe-in relative to center channel plants Salons' huge reflective side panels into listening path. Room correction s/w may compensate, but the goal is to make its job easier, so try some absorptive panels. They can be temporarily leaned in place against the speakers on the floor.

Remove wall panels at 2nd reflection points to help liven listening end of room. Would like to swap 16" dia traps with 20" ones, but too much work for one afternoon.

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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Those of you still waiting for hard data will be disappointed at my lack of cooperation. The best I can do at the moment is to post the chart I've been using (see below). It's an EQ guide intended for recording engineers, but which applies to sound reproduction as well. For sound in the home, PEQ can deal with fine adjustments over a broad frequency range and vice versa. We may not have precise control at the end of the room correction chain if our AVR leaves us with only a house curve to manipulate. Individual PEQ bands which are independent of the room correction presets are needed to further refine the sound. Through a combination of manual PEQ and slight change to my house curve, I was able to coax speech intelligibility from the system. Now to perfect it (what a lofty goal)! Still would like to revamp and recal a few things in the room. Next 3-day weekend?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Slacker... 


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

:neener:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Lol! Insert famous excuse "It wasn't my fault" from the Blues Brothers here.

I confess! I used PEQ as a band-aid because by the time I found out I was disappointed in the auto target curve, I'd already disconnected the laptop and tidied up Ethernet cables and such. 

And my room is a How Not To HT that belongs more in the critique thread than it does here! But it sounds decent enough until I can commandeer larger quarters MWUUAAHH-Hah-Hah!

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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Now that I've been able to watch a few movies and concert videos, I can honestly say the sound is much improved (not just different). Voices have been lifted out of the mix so to speak. The harshness/scratchiness that originally compelled me to dial-in the 3dB dip centered at 3kHz has only slightly returned - enough to make itself noticeable, but not quite enough to be objectionable. Deep-bass vibrates the slab without creating bloat in the upper bands. "Punch" is back and improved over what I can remember (though I may have missed it for so long I forgot it wasn't there!).

Some heavy hitters have checked in here, and I still mean to take their advice regarding phantom center tests. That should clear up whether the harshness is perceived, or actually originates in the mains or the center. I did wind up taking their advice regarding low frequency masking of dialogue, and dialed-down the +3db lo-shelf to +1.5dB. The original value relied on guesswork rather than good reasoning, but that's what sounded good to me in the past, so that's what I went with. Last night I remembered Wayne's excellent House Curve article, where he states that "A house curve is perceived flat response – that is, it sounds flat, not measures flat. Thus it has to be subjective." He also mentions that a good Rule of Thumb is: "The smaller the room, the steeper the curve." I also remembered his System vs Program Compensation article, and am anxious to re-tune my curve after having reviewed both.

A few passages from the latter article bear repeating:


Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> ...The notion of calling up a different house curve for everything that comes down the pike - or as I’d characterize it, deliberately _un-calibrating_ the system - is not the proper way to do things. If certain discs or TV shows have, for example, bloated midbass – fine. I assume that’s the way the director or producer wanted it to sound, right or wrong. I’m not interested in re-tuning my whole system to “unbloat” his idea of “correct.” I have the benefit of a real time analyzer connected to my system that gives a visual display of all audio-program frequency response, so when I hear something that doesn’t sound right – bloated midbass, limited low extension, screaming treble, what have you - the RTA confirms that is indeed what the program is generating. It verifies my system is calibrated correctly and is accurately reproducing what it’s being fed – a rather satisfying feeling, actually.


I simply LOVE watching the lights on my RTA dance to the incoming signal! But I've never used that function in an official capacity. What a great way to (temporarily?) quelch Audiophilia-Nervosa! Who of us hasn't sat in the sweet spot and been underwhelmed or dissatisfied with the sound? Who hasn't wondered whether a new player or processor would be the next big step toward audio nirvana? Well, having one of these puppies in the chain is key to washing away all pyschosomatic doubt! 



Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Certainly, if you find yourself making the same adjustments on a regular basis – e.g. always dialing up the treble a few notches – then tweaking the system a bit further is in order to finalize your settings. With a properly calibrated system, most program material should be “in the ball park” as far as sounding balanced. That’s the goal, since perfection is unobtainable. Indeed, this is the one downside to having quality electronics and good speakers all properly calibrated for the room: you will quickly find out just how bad a lot of programming really is, especially when it comes to bass.
> .
> <snip>
> .
> I typically just use the receiver's tone controls or my subwoofer remote control (for level adjustment) for times like this, but it would be easy enough to dial in a pre-set curve of some type for certain problematic TV channels or shows that you frequent, if your system has the capability. But even such pre-sets should be recognized for what they are - temporary settings.


You're just too practical and convincing, Wayne. :T
I was wondering how I'd download a multitude of curves to an AVR with no presets. Even so, I'll aim to zero-in on a satisfyingly homogenized system curve. By "homogenized," I mean sufficiently generalized such that most source material will sound good.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Lumen said:


> Now that I've been able to watch a few movies and concert videos, I can honestly say the sound is much improved (not just different). Voices have been lifted out of the mix so to speak. The harshness/scratchiness that originally compelled me to dial-in the 3dB dip centered at 3kHz has only slightly returned - enough to make itself noticeable, but not quite enough to be objectionable. Deep-bass vibrates the slab without creating bloat in the upper bands. "Punch" is back and improved over what I can remember (though I may have missed it for so long I forgot it wasn't there!).
> 
> Some heavy hitters have checked in here, and I still mean to take their advice regarding phantom center tests. That should clear up whether the harshness is perceived, or actually originates in the mains or the center. I did wind up taking their advice regarding low frequency masking of dialogue, and dialed-down the +3db lo-shelf to +1.5dB. The original value relied on guesswork rather than good reasoning, but that's what sounded good to me in the past, so that's what I went with. Last night I remembered Wayne's excellent House Curve article, where he states that "A house curve is perceived flat response – that is, it sounds flat, not measures flat. Thus it has to be subjective." He also mentions that a good Rule of Thumb is: "The smaller the room, the steeper the curve." I also remembered his System vs Program Compensation article, and am anxious to re-tune my curve after having reviewed both.
> 
> ...


Get a MiniDSP DDRC=99A...then you can switch between tunes remotely via your remote control. You can store hundreds of calibrations if you want, but you would have to load from your collection to 1 slot before you could select remotely.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

An easy way to check your center for clarity is to take it outside (nice to have a piece of speaker wire long enough so you don't have to pull the stereo out as well) and away from boundaries & give it a listen. I'm always floored how good speakers sound outside compared to inside. This will tell you very quickly if the room is the problem. I've come to believe that diffusion is critical to good sound.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Sorry if I sound like a killjoy, but my opinion is that it is easy to get caught up and lost in the "house curve follies" - _so many to choose from, let me try them ALL!_

It is a lot of work, and most (all?) of them will probably sound terrible to you.

My suggestion: start flat and modify from there. Keep a "flat" slot for comparison so you can A-B and compare. Be sure to listen at several different volume levels.

Another rule of thumb: The better (smoother & cleaner) the tweeters, the more highs you will enjoy, regardless of room size.

DO NOT use the target curve to try to increase bass beyond the natural rolloff at the low or high end.

But, (sigh!), if you must, you must.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

AudiocRaver said:


> Sorry if I sound like a killjoy, but my opinion is that it is easy to get caught up and lost in the "house curve follies" - _so many to choose from, let me try them ALL!_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I value your opinion, but I think I miscommunicated. Maybe shouldn't have used the term "multitudes." I just wanted the ability to compare a few tweaks to my existing curve. I agree it's a good idea to start from flat rather than the automatically generated curve that room correction thinks you should have. 





AudiocRaver said:


> DO NOT use the target curve to try to increase bass beyond the natural rolloff at the low or high end.
> 
> 
> 
> But, (sigh!), if you must, you must.


But I'd rather do it right AND understand why. Not sure if I miscommunicated again. My "shelf" rolls off at the low end with a sharp knee at around 18Hz. Is that bad? 



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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Lumen said:


> ...My "shelf" rolls off at the low end with a sharp knee at around 18Hz. Is that bad?


Not if the speakers' natural rolloff is at 18 Hz. IF the speakers roll off at 25 Hz and you are trying to get a little extra boost down to 18 Hz, you will probably get flabby low bass. I just spent a day figuring this out. The natural LF rolloff for most speakers is pretty steep and if you try to push that point down even just a few Hz, it can mean bass boost in the range of 6 dB or more to accomplish and the result gets harder to control and sounds icky (yes, that is an official audio term:blink. You can use a DL target curve to cause the rolloff to match the speakers natural rolloff and get a cleaner sound.

At the HF end it can affect imaging. Use the target curve to have the system rolloff match the natural tweeter rolloff at the LP (the tweeter that rolls off first, if they do not match closely), and make sure the system rolloffs of the two channels DO match closely, and the imaging at HF will remain stable on sibilants, no smearing.

A few Hz difference at the low end (kHz at the high end) really tighten them up up nicely, each in its own way.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

ellisr63 said:


> My room is also on the verge of to dead... I would like to make some diffusion panels like GIK has for placing over my absorption panels. I wish they would offer kits of just the wood with the pattern cutout for DIYers too.


Last weekend was fun, as I had time to experiment with room treatment and correction. I'm unsure what or how to measure for degrees of liveness, but I feel I'm successfully headed in the right direction. It's not as hard to hear quiet speech, and it's not as muffled. Notice I didn't say "not muffled at all," because there's still room for improvement. What I thought was a deficiency in center channel quality turned out to be a combination of too much high-frequency absorption coupled with a less-than-complimentary house curve. I decided to go with more of a LE/DE scheme and tame some center-channel nasties (lower-mid boxiness and upper-midrange harshness). The 2nd reflection-point panels came down, and the diffusers in each front corner were replaced with absorbers. Extra pillows and blankets were removed. DIRAC Live's house curve for the center channel was set up flat, except for a bass "shelf" of +1dB with slight dips of -2dB centered at 500Hz and at 3kHz. Room correction effects were disabled above 10kHz in all channels.

Your idea of placing a diffuser over an absorber is an interesting one. I wonder if any of the sound would actually make it through the diffuser into the panel below. I suppose it would depend on which frequencies the diffuser deflected. Do you think the panels would need to be matched so as not to interfere with each other?



bkeeler10 said:


> I certainly agree that the Revel center would be a better match for the Salons, and I would head that way too if I were you. But depending on the source of the problem, your intelligibility may not improve just by moving to the matching Revel center. That's all I'm sayin'


Good call! After a little work I was able to transform the center's tonal character. It's now much better, not just different. That'll learn me not to make changes without looking at multiple causes. Your phantom-center suggestion is still in the running, I just need to find more time to run the tests. The motivation will come when I'm acclimated to my new-found sound!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

AudiocRaver said:


> ...IF the speakers roll off at 25 Hz and you are trying to get a little extra boost down to 18 Hz, you will probably get flabby low bass.


Can't get anything past you! That's exactly what I had, only I attributed it to the ported nature of the sub. :duh:



AudiocRaver said:


> I just spent a day figuring this out. The natural LF rolloff for most speakers is pretty steep and if you try to push that point down even just a few Hz, it can mean bass boost in the range of 6 dB or more to accomplish and the result gets harder to control and sounds icky (yes, that is an official audio term:blink. You can use a DL target curve to cause the rolloff to match the speakers natural rolloff and get a cleaner sound.


Appreciate you sharing your findings! In trying to push the response down using the house curve, I think I was confusing room gain with natural rolloff. Embarrassingly enough, I didn't think things through. My reasoning neglected to account for boosting outside of the driver's capability. Sort of like trying to boost a null. It seems to me as if both eat up headroom, but boosting natural cutoff has a much more audible effect. Incidentally, DIRAC's suggested house curve matched the low-frequency rolloff very closely. This time I left it alone. I'm not sure why the sub was easier to integrate through the xover region. Could it have to do with distortion products (harmonics)? I mean, wouldn't a boosted driver generate harmonics related to the overdriven fundamental?



AudiocRaver said:


> At the HF end it can affect imaging. Use the target curve to have the system rolloff match the natural tweeter rolloff at the LP (the tweeter that rolls off first, if they do not match closely), and make sure the system rolloffs of the two channels DO match closely, and the imaging at HF will remain stable on sibilants, no smearing.


Arrrghhh! I missed this during my re-tune. I believe my L/R mains currently do not track in the upper region. Easy enough to remedy given your tips. Thanks again! :T


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Lumen said:


> Last weekend was fun, as I had time to experiment with room treatment and correction. I'm unsure what or how to measure for degrees of liveness, but I feel I'm successfully headed in the right direction. It's not as hard to hear quiet speech, and it's not as muffled. Notice I didn't say "not muffled at all," because there's still room for improvement. What I thought was a deficiency in center channel quality turned out to be a combination of too much high-frequency absorption coupled with a less-than-complimentary house curve. I decided to go with more of a LE/DE scheme and tame some center-channel nasties (lower-mid boxiness and upper-midrange harshness). The 2nd reflection-point panels came down, and the diffusers in each front corner were replaced with absorbers. Extra pillows and blankets were removed. DIRAC Live's house curve for the center channel was set up flat, except for a bass "shelf" of +1dB with slight dips of -2dB centered at 500Hz and at 3kHz. Room correction effects were disabled above 10kHz in all channels.
> 
> Your idea of placing a diffuser over an absorber is an interesting one. I wonder if any of the sound would actually make it through the diffuser into the panel below. I suppose it would depend on which frequencies the diffuser deflected. Do you think the panels would need to be matched so as not to interfere with each other?
> 
> ...


From what i understand it is more of a decoration than a true diffuser, but by having a solid wood surface it should reduce absorption of the higher frequencies.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Lumen said:


> LE/DE scheme


You don't hear DE/LE or LE/DE terms used that much these days. I personally prefer DE/LE because it tends to keep you on guard against early reflections that are more disruptive to SS&I. The later LE reflections are usually late enough to add to spaciousness without being disruptive to SS&I.



> Your idea of placing a diffuser over an absorber is an interesting one. I wonder if any of the sound would actually make it through the diffuser into the panel below. I suppose it would depend on which frequencies the diffuser deflected. Do you think the panels would need to be matched so as not to interfere with each other?


Matching only in overall character, like ratio of open to closed space of diffuser. Think in terms of wavelength. At 1 kHz, wavelength is about 1 foot. A 1-inch diameter hole is invisible to frequencies below 10 kHz or so (a very rough approximation, but gives you a ballpark idea). But a diffusor with 50% open area is another matter, quite open at LF and not much at HF.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

AudiocRaver said:


> You don't hear DE/LE or LE/DE terms used that much these days. I personally prefer DE/LE because it tends to keep you on guard against early reflections that are more disruptive to SS&I. The later LE reflections are usually late enough to add to spaciousness without being disruptive to SS&I.


Sometimes I forget to check the date of the articles I read. Many of the concepts are as timeless as the laws of physics, but others catch me off guard. Looks like I misused the term and meant to write DE/LE because: 
The back wall (listening end) is fairly dead (two 20" traps and one panel behind LP; one panel at each 1st reflection point).
The front wall (speaker end) is supposed to be live (despite having activated the mains' rear tweeters and despite the TV's large reflective display).

It's easy to identify my acoustic treatments' contribution by listening to how my voice changes when I first walk into the LP end, and then how it keeps changing as I move through it to the speaker end. The acoustics still clearly need improvement. Removing the 2nd reflection panels did not entirely solve the issue with muffled sound at the LP. I think there's still too much hi-frequency absorption as provided by the dual-action traps; so if I remove them to liven the sound at the high end, then SQ will suffer at the low end. WIN-LOSE. Improvement may be possible but like anything else worthwhile, takes effort and time. I'm tempted to swap the dual-acting traps for more conventional bass-only types, but it's not in the budget right now. So what are we left to work with? Assuming the speakers have already been positioned as best as possible for SS&I considerations, here are the variables:
Rear tweets on/off
Bass trap #x of y in location z
Bass trap diffuser section aimed in 45deg increments

That's a lot of combinations and experimentation! Listener fatigue is bound to set in. Wouldn't you question the validity of a listening comparison separated by hours if not days? Well, that's exactly what will happen when trying to setup each and every combination listed. Time (and sanity) might be preserved by performing only the most promising trials. For instance, changes could be made in L/R pairs if the room is acoustically symmetrical - there would be no need to control left and right tweeters individually. If we recognize the orientation of diffuser sections to be the major contributor of muffled sound, then we can concentrate on which setup to perform first. Is this the order in which you'd approach a room-tune:

SS&I
Acoustic treatment for reflections
Acoustic treatment for bass
Room correction


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

More thoughts (sorry, I can't help it!):

Room correction could be trying to undo my well-intentioned acoustic tuning. Dirac Live yields room calibrations rich in SS&I, so if my speakers are correctly set up, less acoustic treatment should be needed, right? 

I believe it's time to get back to basics, take some measurements without the traps, then introduce them individually and measure again. Then guess what? Move them around and measure some more! The vibrating trap method can help a lot here.

Or... My basic complaint of muffled sound could just be high-frequency hearing loss!




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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I would tend to think your first two presumptions to be correct. One must always begin with a zero sum game in that the room should be an empty vessel into which sound should be introduced in its raw format first. Change can them be made to the room a tiny bit at a time to obtain the results you are looking for. We who are not professionals tend to add things to a room without having full knowledge of whether those things are good or bad. You have a good bit of sound attenuation in your room that apparently might be causing your time of discontent. Us regular guys then might expect a bit of coding to do or undue something that might be beyond its control. I think, and it is just that, Jack-think, that when you empty the room of equipment, maybe empty the room of traps and what have you and treat the room like a newborn, en empty vessel that needs to be eased into conformity. 

Just random thoughts to be taken or not taken irrespective of your hearing acuity 0


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lumen said:


> More thoughts (sorry, I can't help it!):
> 
> Room correction could be trying to undo my well-intentioned acoustic tuning. Dirac Live yields room calibrations rich in SS&I, so if my speakers are correctly set up, less acoustic treatment should be needed, right?
> 
> ...




Hmm. I wonder too. My thinking is if you've selected and placed your acoustic bolsters, Dirac should have less to do. Kinda like tuning your subs with minidsp before you run audyssey therefore lightening its processing workload. And yes, I also believe if you've placed your speakers correctly (?), Dirac will have less to do there as well. Am I all wet? What I mean to say is taking care of the physical aspects first, like placement and treatment, should be done before relying on electronics. Like subs. Placement first, treatment second, and EQ last. Whatchathinkaboutdat?


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

willis7469 said:


> Hmm. I wonder too. My thinking is if you've selected and placed your acoustic bolsters, Dirac should have less to do. Kinda like tuning your subs with minidsp before you run audyssey therefore lightening its processing workload. And yes, I also believe if you've placed your speakers correctly (?), Dirac will have less to do there as well. Am I all wet? What I mean to say is taking care of the physical aspects first, like placement and treatment, should be done before relying on electronics. Like subs. Placement first, treatment second, and EQ last. Whatchathinkaboutdat?


All wet, too funny my friend.

I do not wish to answer for Lumen so for my own knowledge, how does one know ahead of time how much treatment is needed and where should the treatment be placed ? I believe, me, Jack, that to fill a room with absorbers/ diffuses etc, without actually having a good baseline on sound may not get the best results. Its possible that only one acoustic thingie is needed or maybe lots more. Having heard the Salons in the past I can say that they are very smooth and engaging with a stunning bottom end, lovely speakers. Now lets put those speakers in a room with 10,000 pounds of absorbent foam, no amount of dirac or audyssey can overcome the deleterious effects of the overwhelming about of foam in the room. Does that make sense ?? Now place the speakers in an empty room, run the correction software and then add treatments based on results and then the software. I dunno, maybe I am full of beans here.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Hmm. I wonder too. My thinking is if you've selected and placed your acoustic bolsters, Dirac should have less to do. Kinda like tuning your subs with minidsp before you run audyssey therefore *lightening its processing workload*. And yes, I also believe if you've placed your speakers correctly (?), Dirac will have less to do there as well. Am I all wet?


My emphasis in *bold*. I also think heavier processing is unfavorable to SQ, if for no other reason than phase shift and time-domain anomalies caused by the extra filters employed by the room correction software. I've read that phase shift is not the smoking gun as was once thought, but I dunno. :huh:



Savjac said:


> I do not wish to answer for Lumen so for my own knowledge, how does one know ahead of time how much treatment is needed and where should the treatment be placed ?


Thanks for not putting words in my mouth, Jack, my foot's already in there :R
That's a very, very good question! Easily answered? Not so much (see below). ASC Tube Traps have a well-documented set-up procedure that you can take to varying degrees of complexity and expense. Take the article with a grain of salt, as it's something of a sales gimmick, IMO - it becomes ridiculous for most of us to expect to fill a listening room with traps, even without WAF! For other types of traps/treatments, I think most people just follow general rules of thumb like floor-to-ceiling or in-the-corners. Besides, once you've taken care of 1st and 2nd reflections on the sidewalls and ceiling, there's not much room left. ASC suggests adding treatment at the critical locations first, then adding as budget and taste allow. They say that bass will become tighter, but also thinner, as traps are added. They go on to say back-off when you think SQ starts to suffer. Incidentally, they offer limited, free acoustic consultation as part of your purchase! 



Savjac said:


> I believe, me, Jack, that to fill a room with absorbers/ diffuses etc, without actually having a good baseline on sound may not get the best results. Its possible that only one acoustic thingie is needed or maybe lots more. Having heard the Salons in the past I can say that they are very smooth and engaging with a stunning bottom end, lovely speakers. Now lets put those speakers in a room with 10,000 pounds of absorbent foam, no amount of dirac or audyssey can overcome the deleterious effects of the overwhelming about of foam in the room. Does that make sense ?? Now place the speakers in an empty room, run the correction software and then add treatments based on results and then the software. I dunno, maybe I am full of beans here.


This issue of whether to establish a baseline with or without traps has been the source of much of my anguish lately. Both of you got my brain cell thinking. I first thought emptying the room to measure bass response would be a good place to start until I realized that adding the required furnishings would change the response. Since in my case the room dictates the furnishings' locations, they should be present for the baseline measurement, agreed? In general though, furnishings would be moved around to see what works best (example: played into short dimension instead of long one). 

After that basic step - which includes speaker positioning for best SS&I - acoustic treatments can be introduced. So which ones and where? I would start with _broadband_ panels at the 1st reflection points on the sidewalls, but am not sure measurements help at this stage. Maybe impulse response and group delay graphs? I'm not familiar enough with REW and the underlying theory to comment. Larger rooms may benefit from 2nd reflection-point treatment; mine is rather small and extra treatment for these 2nd points rob the room of a lively nature. It helps to remember some bare wall-space is needed for beneficial reflections or the room becomes too dead and lifeless in the high frequencies. Once comfortable with SS&I or SQ, I'd tackle the bass, introducing traps one at a time or in pairs per ASC recommendations. After each introduction, measure again or move and measure again. Stop when bass response looks good or sounds right, whichever floats your boat.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Savjac said:


> All wet, too funny my friend.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not wish to answer for Lumen so for my own knowledge, how does one know ahead of time how much treatment is needed and where should the treatment be placed ? I believe, me, Jack, that to fill a room with absorbers/ diffuses etc, without actually having a good baseline on sound may not get the best results. Its possible that only one acoustic thingie is needed or maybe lots more. Having heard the Salons in the past I can say that they are very smooth and engaging with a stunning bottom end, lovely speakers. Now lets put those speakers in a room with 10,000 pounds of absorbent foam, no amount of dirac or audyssey can overcome the deleterious effects of the overwhelming about of foam in the room. Does that make sense ?? Now place the speakers in an empty room, run the correction software and then add treatments based on results and then the software. I dunno, maybe I am full of beans here.




Well Jack, I do not believe you're full of beans. Unless you really are! Lol
I do agree that to arbitrarily start throwing acoustic treatments in a room Willy nilly, is bad form. I also do believe guys like bpape at gik, can get you off to a real good start and pointed in the right direction. Like anything, some trial and error is probably in order. It would probably be easy to overstuff a small space like Lou's, and have it too dead. A fine line... My prescription would be to call GIK(or your favorite acou-treatment place) and get a consult. Start small, run Dirac, add as necessary, run Dirac. Rinse repeat until it's dialed. Probably a lot easier with professional help. That's where I punch out!!! Lol


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Louie, I think your Brain cell is screwed on tight.(glued maybe?) lol 
Your thoughts seem to be my own, except I wouldn't bother to empty the room to measure since that's not how it will be used. I think you've got a good grasp on not making the room too dead also. My hunch is that space might be a less is more situation, but I've not heard rose amazing speakers in there. And thanks btw, I've been window shopping at revel. Before you came along I was pretty much shopping at GE, RBH, and KEF. Thanks. :neener:


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Lumen said:


> Sometimes I forget to check the date of the articles I read. Many of the concepts are as timeless as the laws of physics, but others catch me off guard. Looks like I misused the term and meant to write DE/LE because:
> 
> The back wall (listening end) is fairly dead (two 20" traps and one panel behind LP; one panel at each 1st reflection point).
> The front wall (speaker end) is supposed to be live (despite having activated the mains' rear tweeters and despite the TV's large reflective display).


Hmmm, not exactly what I said.

Wlth LE/DE, the front of the room is live, and my contention is that the liveness is all early reflections (seems kinda obvious) and that it is not possible to have that without softening the image clarity. Some people like that earlier liveness and put up with the softer imaging to get it - I'd rather have my mind messed with by a dense soundstage and pinpoint imaging. The DE rear of the room simply adds no later reflections, one would hope.

With DE/LE, the front of the room is dead _enough_ that the sharpest imaging is supported and not disrupted. There can still be _controlled_ reflections that arrive from the direction and in time such that imaging is _enhanced_ and the soundstage is as well. The LE reflections from behind are late enough (15 to 20 ms or more) that add the spaciousness without disrupting the image clarity and sharpness. With good dissipation in the LE, the spaciousness is supported and the earlier reflections that support the SS&I are not affected.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.



> It's easy to identify my acoustic treatments' contribution by listening to how my voice changes when I first walk into the LP end, and then how it keeps changing as I move through it to the speaker end. The acoustics still clearly need improvement. Removing the 2nd reflection panels did not entirely solve the issue with muffled sound at the LP. I think there's still too much hi-frequency absorption as provided by the dual-action traps; so if I remove them to liven the sound at the high end, then SQ will suffer at the low end. WIN-LOSE. Improvement may be possible but like anything else worthwhile, takes effort and time. I'm tempted to swap the dual-acting traps for more conventional bass-only types, but it's not in the budget right now. So what are we left to work with? Assuming the speakers have already been positioned as best as possible for SS&I considerations, here are the variables:
> 
> Rear tweets on/off
> Bass trap #x of y in location z
> ...


Depends. The cool thing about SS&I listening tests is that the psychoacoustical brain has several ways to cross-reference the info, so longer-term listening tests can be more reliable. Frequency response is hard to do this with, until it gets more extreme, so is distortion, so is just about every audio quality. The auditory system is the only one in use. But with SS&I, it is easier. Three different physical systems are used in SS&I perception, the auditory, the visual (angle, distance, image diameter), and the kinesthetic (one's internal mapping system).




> Well, that's exactly what will happen when trying to setup each and every combination listed. Time (and sanity) might be preserved by performing only the most promising trials.


Hopefully.




> For instance, changes could be made in L/R pairs if the room is acoustically symmetrical - there would be no need to control left and right tweeters individually. If we recognize the orientation of diffuser sections to be the major contributor of muffled sound...


ahhh-HA! muffled sound, too!




> then we can concentrate on which setup to perform first. Is this the order in which you'd approach a room-tune:
> SS&I
> Acoustic treatment for reflections
> Acoustic treatment for bass
> Room correction


SS&I with good frequency response is the goal of the other activities. Acoustical treatment that affects bass _only_ should not affect imaging, but treatment for reflections is critical. I have never tried treating for bass only, except to deaden it in general to quicken decay time, which really tightens the bass and clears up the soundstage and sharpens imaging.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Lumen said:


> More thoughts (sorry, I can't help it!):
> 
> Room correction could be trying to undo my well-intentioned acoustic tuning. Dirac Live yields room calibrations rich in SS&I, so if my speakers are correctly set up, less acoustic treatment should be needed, right?


It can be difficult to separate out _speakers correctly set up_ and _acoustical treatment._ Early reflections - timing, direction, amount - are a big part of what makes a speaker sound set up right.



> I believe it's time to get back to basics, take some measurements without the traps, then introduce them individually and measure again. Then guess what? Move them around and measure some more! The vibrating trap method can help a lot here.
> 
> Or... My basic complaint of muffled sound could just be high-frequency hearing loss!


Probably not.


Introduce _strategically._


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Lumen said:


> More thoughts (sorry, I can't help it!):
> 
> Room correction could be trying to undo my well-intentioned acoustic tuning. Dirac Live yields room calibrations rich in SS&I, so if my speakers are correctly set up, less acoustic treatment should be needed, right?


It can be difficult to separate out _speakers correctly set up_ and _acoustical treatment._Early reflections - timing, direction, amount - are a big part of what makes a speaker sound set up right.



> I believe it's time to get back to basics, take some measurements without the traps, then introduce them individually and measure again. Then guess what? Move them around and measure some more! The vibrating trap method can help a lot here.
> 
> Or... My basic complaint of muffled sound could just be high-frequency hearing loss!


Probably not.Introduce _strategically._

_Louie, what's with all the weird codes?_


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Wayne, what took you so long?


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Wayne, what took you so long?


_Time is an illusion._:coocoo:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I suddenly here Steve miller... Time keeps on slippin...slippin...slippin.........


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

AudiocRaver said:


> _Louie, what's with all the weird codes?_


I saw them in the duplicate post, too, but they're gone now. Like my hair. :R


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

AudiocRaver said:


> Hmmm, not exactly what I said.
> 
> Wlth LE/DE, the front of the room is live, and my contention is that the liveliness is all early reflections (seems kinda obvious) and that it is not possible to have that without softening the image clarity. Some people like that earlier liveliness and put up with the softer imaging to get it - I'd rather have my mind messed with by a dense soundstage and pinpoint imaging. The DE rear of the room simply adds no later reflections, one would hope.
> 
> ...


I have been thinking on this for a bit and wonder if the description in the LE/DE note above could be a part of the nature of your Martin Logans. If I have LE/DE in my room, the early reflections would mainly come from the side walls and ceiling if not properly treated as my speakers do not fire rearward with the exception of a port on the back to release low frequency information in way of sound pressure. By placing some nice Roxul at the first reflection points on my side walls, the image specificity is brilliant. This plan also seems to work very well for my Dahlquist which have an open baffle situation but nothing truly fires back to the front wall. 
Should there be different breakdowns for different types of speakers ?


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Lumen said:


> I saw them in the duplicate post, too, but they're gone now. Like my hair. :R


We are old Lumen, we dont need no stinkin hair !!:innocent:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Too funny, Jack! This just in: I passed on another of my wife's offers to move to the slightly larger room. I'm starting to think they're moving into the realm of suggestions rather than offers! But the room swap carries with it the stipulation that the new one be painted a light color (for the home's pending sale). Egad, man.

If I stay planted in the green room, at least it's a lot darker there; so I'm hoping possession is all-tenths of the law.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

And... playing dumb can be the better part of being smart!


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

AudiocRaver said:


> And... playing dumb can be the better part of being smart!



"Playing" you say ??? Lumen knows what he is doing, no one wants to move 16 tons of speakers and stuff. I can see a day when he velcro's his bottom to his leather chair. :wink2:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Savjac said:


> Lumen knows what he is doing


Hah, got you fooled!



Savjac said:


> ...no one wants to move 16 tons of speakers and stuff.


16.05 tons including the new center channel!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

15 pounds of dust and dog fur later, the room transformation has begun. I must have been the one moving at light speed, because I missed pictures of the tear-down! Here's a peek at the progress so far. The tube traps may come out or get swapped with different diameters depending on measurements yet to come.



































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

So that is where everything came from, and here is where it went:



























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Just to try and collect my upgrade activities in one place, I've edited the first post to include links to my other related threads. Thanks for following! :bigsmile:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Roger that Lou!!! Thanks for sharing.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

AudiocRaver said:


> And... playing dumb can be the better part of being smart!


I think jtalden once said something to the effect that "Forgiveness is easier than permission." :whistling:

Well, I may have to push my luck because WAF says the albums stay. After clearing the room of extra furniture/clutter and re-arranging album crates against the back wall to make room for the new HT seats, it's become clear that properly locating the mains is going to be as serious an issue as it was before. Extending the bass traps from ceiling-to-floor will eat up valuable floor space that was previously occupied by the sub. Maybe measurements will show the traps aren't needed. Maybe not. In any case it's going to be a rough experiment, because the traps won't be easily removed when there's an equipment rack on one side and a speaker on the other. The speaker will have to be moved to excavate the bottom trap, which makes for poor repeatability. Suggestions and/or comments are welcome and very much appreciated! 

This main is shown 3.5ft off the front wall:








The same main sits 6.75ft from the back "wall" of crates:








The seats' full upright position have B=3ft 2in and full recline D=5ft 10in:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

_First, I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just venting. Please skip to the next post if you're sensitive to negativity._

Start :rant: 
...But this is my life, and last weekend slathered icing on a moldy cake. Best Buy's Geek Squad was supposed to install my TV wall mount on Saturday during a 4-hour window (I've gone DIY couple times without incident, but my current TV will be a seriously heavy piece of hardware suspended over seriously expensive gear. A mishap would be devastating!). Anyway, the plan was to have the A/V rack present and assembled in time to properly position the TV above the center channel. Also, express delivery would allow me to reassemble the system and run some preliminary tests with REW to familiarize myself with time domain measurements. So having put other plans aside AND having paid for overnight delivery of the A/V rack, I waited for Geek Squad's arrival. As the last few minutes of my 4-hour window ticked by, I finally decided to call and was told - after being redirected twice for a total 23 minute hold time - that I had to reschedule. Their reason vaguely hinted at an absentee installer. Trying not to go ballistic, I firmly but politely explained how lame that was, especially since I had called the night before to confirm. I then asked why nobody had bothered to inform the affected customers. Silence. I should have cancelled and hired someone else, but was able to squeeze a substantial discount out of them. Let's see if they show up Wednesday. I can only envision scenes out of the movie _Money Pit_: "Two weeks, two weeks!"
End :rant:

I guess I shouldn't complain because there are much worse things in life. But on my behalf, my 3-4 hour daily commute seriously undermines my free time. 
Thanks for letting me vent!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Vent away Lou! You're right. There are worse things in life, but that doesn't mean that it's ok what happened to you. I deleted my own rant that I was going to bolster yours with, but just know I agree. And wish I cousins a wake up call to the brain donors who run these things.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Wish you the best my friend. Ifin you were home today I could help you with that as I am going through your area today on the way up north. Oh well, I m still sorry for your issue.


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## Prof. (Oct 20, 2006)

Lumen said:


> I guess I shouldn't complain because there are much worse things in life. But on my behalf, my 3-4 hour daily commute seriously undermines my free time.
> Thanks for letting me vent!


If I had to commute for 3-4 hours a day, I'd be pretty depressed as well!.. I get annoyed if I'm travelling for just an hour! :hissyfit:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

The kind people here are holding back I think. I realize there are people with different skill sets. Some are handy with building projects, others not. I guess that's what keeps service-oriented companies and contractors in business. 

So I am really helping save the economy, don't you think?!

Let's see if Geek Squad shows up this time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

:clap: :nerd: Geek Squad Installation a success! :nerd: :clap:
The crew showed up at the beginning of my 4-hour window and proceeded to blitzkrieg through the installation. I'll be posting pics later today - how exciting, eh? 


:foottap: :foottap: Seats Arrive Safely... NOT! :foottap: :foottap:
Well, I'll make up for that with some pics of my pallett of HT seats that arrived this morning. Once again I was first on the list! Someone was asleep at the wheel of the forklift, though. Both seats were damaged; one was just scraped, but the other was punctured through the footrest. Not to worry, though. The carrier said he's never had to return one. You get to keep it because it's cheaper for the the manufacturer to just ship a new one!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

So Lou. Do you get a free seat?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Lumen said:


> Someone was asleep at the wheel of the forklift, though. Both seats were damaged; one was just scraped, but the other was punctured through the footrest. Not to worry, though. The carrier said he's never had to return one. You get to keep it because it's cheaper for the the manufacturer to just ship a new one!


Some Gorilla tape on the damage and your good to go. Thats a great score if they just leave them behind for you.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> Some Gorilla tape on the damage and your good to go. Thats a great score if they just leave them behind for you.




Luv me sum G'rilla tape!!!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> So Lou. Do you get a free seat?


Hope so! Have to wait and see what they say after emailing my pics tonight. I didn't want to presume they'd agree.


tonyvdb said:


> Some Gorilla tape on the damage and your good to go. Thats a great score if they just leave them behind for you.


I wonder how much I could get on the pre-owned market? Now that's counting my chickens before they hatch!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

LOL, yup that stuff is great.
I have a cousin who taped his entire leather couch that was worn out with that stuff to prolong its life. It literally held it together for years before they finally bought a new one.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Glad you could tune back in to "As Lou's World Turns!" 

*This week we find Looney Lou chomping at the bit trying to contact the HT seating company about major issues with the delivery. It's not bad enough someone drove a forklift through the footrest of one, but neither seat is powered! It has a worm-drive, motor, and USB ports - but no AC adapter, power cord, recline switches, or any place to plug in a power cord.

My agent has left for the day, and other reps say I need to contact her. SIGH.*


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

There is a word that comes to my mind when I see stupidity like this but I will not repeat it.
I am sorry Lou, this must be like a blow to the head, especially the excitement you had with everything finally falling in line for the green room. :frown:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Chomp, chomp, chomp! They open in 3 hours at 7am PST. I am preoccupied.
On the bright side: HT seats are present in the room for acoustic measurements this weekend.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

It is only on the footrest...if so you could most likely remove the foot rest and replace the leather yourself or take it to a local upholstery shop and get it repaired for a hundred or less. Never hurts to have a free chair. :T

Even if you don't need them...spare parts for free!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

, they'll probably send a white new foot rest. Bolt on and go! Or sit....and recline.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Either the trucker is mistaken or my situation is unique, because the company wants the chair back. They say the footrest can be repaired, but not swapped out. There might be hidden damage to the frame or electronics, so I opted for a replacement. They also said they'll compensate me for my troubles, but don't have any details on that yet. Can you say, "Don't hold your breath"?

Pics of the new room layout coming soon.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Wow Lou. That stinks a little. Guess the new guy shouldn't drive the forklift. I've owned and operated my own forklifts for 15 Years, and I've never speared a skid that bad. Just like your first attempt at the wall mount. People need to wake up. And get slapped up too.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

He was probably texting and driving...:scratch:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> He was probably texting and driving...:scratch:




Lol!!!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Lumen said:


> Pics of the new room layout coming soon.


oops! Pics are over here in Post #25. Too many threads!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

UPDATES:

After talking to a different HT seating rep, they are
Shipping me a new chair
Not making me return the damaged one
Sending two neck pillows as consolation for my troubles

Implemented multi-channel on laptop for REW
Discovered malfunctioning tweeter
Conducted subwoofer tests with incorrect loudness setting

So yeah that's a mixed bag, but good for the most part. The seating company finally did the right thing. And I have AudiocRaver to thank for keeping this lightning-fast thread rolling. His troubleshooting procedure saved me days of debug time getting ASIO4ALL to play nicely with Windows audio. Not sure what happened to the tweeter or exactly when. I think I got caught up in swapping cables for REW measurements JAVA-style, and forgot to first power-down the processor/amp. A replacement driver is on its way. Until then, I've been trying to find the best location for the sub. I wound up with a pile of data and a ton of frustration when I found out that LOUDNESS had been engaged the entire time. That meant the Fletcher-Munson curve was applied during frequency response measurements, but NOT during Dirac Live calibration. I don't think that setup is valid, do you?


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

No Lou, not with loudness compensation engaged, it does not seem to be a realistic expectation. It would seem that the bass would be enhanced at all levels when engaged and that would imo most certainly throw off your technical measurements. Can you bypass any and all settings when listening to home theater as would be experienced when the Dirac is engaged ??


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Throwing-off measurements seems very probable when the FR is skewed by AVR settings before even getting started. Fortunately, there are modes that bypass certain functions (and combinations of functions). The trick during REW measuring is to make sure the right mode is selected for the combination of channels under test. Swapping cables and manipulating the source signal are required for non-HDMI functionality - not much fun crawling around in cramped quarters with a flashlight sweating on yourself because you're too fat and old for this! Light speed? NOT!!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

The new tweeter is installed and operational. Hyper-awareness of pre calibration settings is engaged (LOUDNESS OFF, SPEAKERS SMALL, SUB SLOPE 12 or 24 dB/octave). Listening tests have been conducted, and LCR speakers positioned for best SS&I. Surround speakers were left in their previous compromised locations due to room constraints. Acoustic wall panels were added at 1st and 2nd reflection points per subjective testing, but can be moved/removed per your recommendations. I think that just about covers room tuning preparation, and I'm anxious to get started again!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

This last weekend was like boot camp. Although I was able to get the ASIO4ALL HDMI configuration running on the laptop, I grew a yellow streak at the last minute because it wasn't stable and I didn't want to take the chance of frying my new tweeter. So instead of having a nice signal switcher at my fingertips, I did the STOP DROP and ROLL dance to get from changing physical connections to working the laptop. 

It's all good and was well worth it! I've learned a lot so far, and look forward to learning more. My wife and I are now in good shape to enjoy movies and music together without straining to hear dialog, and without spraining our backs laying on the floor. I've overstayed my welcome on this project and need to get back to taxes, but I'll return to finish what I started.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Last weekend found me in a flurry of measurement and listening activity. Attempts to tame the ragged center channel response yielded slight improvements. Another bass trap along with a lower crossover frequency helped make the graph look nicer, but took SQ further from my goal of punchy bass with crisp dialogue. Details can be found in my Sound Renovation and Fix My Center threads.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

As you can tell from the lack of new posts, my dear wife has dropped temporarily out of warp. Time for some entertainment on the newly tuned system!


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