# Denon 4311 or Onkyo tx nr 818



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

I currently own a two year old Denon it's a 7.1 receiver but because of space I can only do 5.1 and am using the second zone for patio music. Anyways I want to upgrade to the xt32 version of Audyssey and both the 4311 and 818 have it on board but I can't decide which receiver would be better of the two. The problem is would it be worth the upgrade for xt32 even if I won't be able to take advantage of the other features ?


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Which Denon do you have? Or, more to the point, what version of Audyssey does it have?


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

The 4311 has XT32 with SubEQ, I believe the 818 only has XT32 but not SubEQ. 

SubEQ only adjusts the distance and levels of 2 subs, it EQ's them as one LFE source after that though, just like the 818 would do without SubEQ. If you manually set-up the distance and levels then it will be the same. 

Isn't the 4311 about twice the price of the Onkyo 818?


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

sub_crazy said:


> The 4311 has XT32 with SubEQ, I believe the 818 only has XT32 but not SubEQ.
> 
> SubEQ only adjusts the distance and levels of 2 subs, it EQ's them as one LFE source after that though, just like the 818 would do without SubEQ. If you manually set-up the distance and levels then it will be the same.
> 
> Isn't the 4311 about twice the price of the Onkyo 818?


Yes twice the price and I won't be using two subs.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

XT32 is a better EQ than the older XT so yes, I think it would be a worthy upgrade. Since you will only be using 1 sub then the Onkyo 818 would be my choice and save that extra money to upgrade something else in your system or add room treatments.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I would also go with the 818. I would hold off for them to go on sale though. When I purchased my 809 it was selling for a fraction of MSRP just months after being released.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Actually selling for $679.99 on Amazon right now. That's a good price.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
If looking at AC4L, the differences in price are not that vast. If you are fairly certain you are not going to be running dual subwoofers during the time you have the AVR, the 818 is mighty tempting. A major pro for the Onkyo is the HQV Vida and Marvell Qdeo Video Processing tandem that is considered the finest on the market. The 818 having THX Post Processing is also nice.

The Denon does offer a Preamp Only mode where the internal amplification can be switched off when using outboard amplification. The Denon also offers Airplay for Apple devices.

I do think the Onkyo has a slightly stronger amplifier stage, but it would probably not be noticeable unless using rather difficult to drive speakers and or using a large room. SubEQ HT is amazing and should not be discounted however. It offers a very similar experience to the $800 SVS AS-EQ1 that SubEQ HT is modeled after.
Cheers,
JJ


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> If looking at AC4L, the differences in price are not that vast. If you are fairly certain you are not going to be running dual subwoofers during the time you have the AVR, the 818 is mighty tempting. A major pro for the Onkyo is the HQV Vida and Marvell Qdeo Video Processing tandem that is considered the finest on the market. The 818 having THX Post Processing is also nice.
> 
> The Denon does offer a Preamp Only mode where the internal amplification can be switched off when using outboard amplification. The Denon also offers Airplay for Apple devices.
> ...


Thanks, can you have thx mode at the same time as Audyssey? Also what about the hdmi issues with the 818 are they resolved?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

asere said:


> Thanks, can you have thx mode at the same time as Audyssey? Also what about the hdmi issues with the 818 are they resolved?


Hello,
Audyssey and THX Post Processing can be used simultaneously. As for HDMI Issues, from what I have read, the latest firmware updates have made things more stable. You might want to consider the TX-NR3009 as it offers XT32, a decent bit stronger amplifier stage that meets THX Ultra2 Plus Certification (818 THX Select2), has SubEQ HT, and more.
Cheers,
JJ


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

I was told the 4311 is made in Japan instead of China. I don't know about the 818. Japan is better for sure or am I wrong?


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

asere said:


> I was told the 4311 is made in Japan instead of China. I don't know about the 818. Japan is better for sure or am I wrong?


I would prefer all of my electronics originate in Japan.


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## WRYKER (Jan 23, 2009)

I had a Denon 3312 and just went to the 818 and I love it. No issues at all w/the firmware a few months ago. I suggest getting the 818 - you won't be disappointed.


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## bigjsd (Dec 21, 2012)

I am currently debating between the Denon 3313 and the Onkyo 818. I have always loved the sound of Denon as well as their reliability which is why I naturally am gravitating towards them once again. However the feature set of the Onkyo at the current price point is too hard to ignore and I am completely torn between the two. I have never owned an Onkyo nor heard one outside of a store setting. I am only running a 5.1 setup and honestly will probably never fully utilize all the bells and whistles of either one of these but I like to have it if needed. I know the only way to determine which one sounds best to me is to audition both in home. My question about the Onkyo is reliability. My current Denon is 8 years old and works flawlessly however I am way overdue for an upgrade due to so many advances in video technology since my last purchase. After doing some research online it seems as if Onkyo has some reliability issues. Does anyone know if this is the norm or it happens to be model specific?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The Onkyo 709 had some units manufactured in a two month period that had a bad board and was repaired under a recall, The 5008 had a faulty ribbon cable on some units as well but over all given they outsell other manufacturers almost two to one your going to see some faulty units. I am still using my Onkyo 805 thats now 5 years old and it was said to burst into flames LOL but not one person has ever proven that. I have never had one issue. There seems to be a small handful of Onkyo haters that for what ever reason bash them profusely. I along with many others here at the HTS think they offer the very best bang for buck of any manufacturer particularly in the power output. 
For the record I was a Yamaha fanboy for many years till I bought my first Onkyo and it changed my mind.


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## JQueen (Jan 11, 2012)

I love my 805 no issues with it


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## bigjsd (Dec 21, 2012)

I am aware of the "haters" that each brand seems to have for no apparent reason at all. It's almost as if they think by bashing another product it somehow makes theirs better. It's good to hear that Onkyo's problems seem to be tied to particular units rather than an overall quality issue. I guess now it just comes down to how it sounds to me. It's funny you mentioned Yamaha because when I bought my first A/V receiver a decade ago I auditioned a Yamaha and a Denon and the Denon for me had a far more natural sound which I fell in love with. As I stated earlier I LOVE the Denon sound and probably wouldn't even have considered the Onkyo if I could get the same features at the same price point. Although MSRP is comparable the actual street price that Onkyo is available at makes it a GREAT value. Well I will defintely come back and post my decision on which one I decide to keep when I pull the trigger. The thing that is bad is that by the end of January when I am ready to buy I will be so tempted to wait for the next years editions to see what's new. :bigsmile:


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I was also a fan of Yamaha before purchasing my Onkyo 809. I've been 100% satisfied with my Onkyo and would not hesitate to purchase the 818 today if I could somehow justify the purchase with my wife. Having said that I think Denon makes excellent AVR's and it would be my second choice.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

asere said:


> I was told the 4311 is made in Japan instead of China. I don't know about the 818. Japan is better for sure or am I wrong?





JBrax said:


> I would prefer all of my electronics originate in Japan.


Hello,
I too have always valued equipment made in Japan. In the pre Bain days, a larger number of Denons were made there as opposed to China. All Onkyo and Integra's have been made in Malaysia since the x05/.8 Series.
Cheers,
JJ


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

I owned 04 Yamaha, a 2001 Pioneer and the sound was excellent but I upgraded to a Denon to get hdmi. Denon sounds awesome but never tried Onkyo.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I too have always valued equipment made in Japan. In the pre Bain days, a larger number of Denons were made there as opposed to China. All Onkyo and Integra's have been made in Malaysia since the x05/.8 Series.
> Cheers,
> JJ


So bad quality since it's Malaysa?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

asere said:


> So bad quality since it's Malaysa?


Not at all. An earlier post was discussing where the Onkyo TX-NR709 was made and I was just providing insight. I have purchased both a TX-NR3007 and 3008 that were made in Malaysia. While I might have preferred that the Onkyo's were still made in Japan, I still love my 3008 and did not get a 4311 instead.


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

Features aside Im also reading that the 818 does not support gapless/FLAC file playback even though its DLNA certified.... so if your planning on streaming from a MAC this may be something to consider...and you all ready know it doesnt support air play ....


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## phillihp23 (Mar 14, 2012)

I myself am about to pull the trigger on a new receiver purchase. I was a strong Sony purchaser back in the day until they started losing Quality Control. Now I wouldn't buy sony if you payed me. I ended up buying a Denon and loved it. Recently gifted it to my brother in law (upgrade for him) a Denon AVR 3806. It was state of the art at the time (HDMI). I purchased a Denon AVR 2112 which i have been using in my HT for about 4 months. Now I am going to move that to the living room to replace the 3806 i gifted. I am gonna pick up the Denon AVR 3313 for the HT. I'm getting a good deal. A friend works at an electronics store and with his discount I can get it for $800 new.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

bigjsd said:


> I am currently debating between the Denon 3313 and the Onkyo 818. I have always loved the sound of Denon as well as their reliability which is why I naturally am gravitating towards them once again. However the feature set of the Onkyo at the current price point is too hard to ignore and I am completely torn between the two. I have never owned an Onkyo nor heard one outside of a store setting. I am only running a 5.1 setup and honestly will probably never fully utilize all the bells and whistles of either one of these but I like to have it if needed. I know the only way to determine which one sounds best to me is to audition both in home. My question about the Onkyo is reliability. My current Denon is 8 years old and works flawlessly however I am way overdue for an upgrade due to so many advances in video technology since my last purchase. After doing some research online it seems as if Onkyo has some reliability issues. Does anyone know if this is the norm or it happens to be model specific?


I would go for the 818 instead of the 3313 for the money the 818 gets you xt32. The 3313 only has xt.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
As for Airplay, a $99 Apple TV allows you to pretty easily get around the Onkyo's lack of it. I purchased one in September and must say that it is mighty handy little device.
Cheers,
JJ


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Ok I'm going to pull the trigger! The 4311 or 818 but again just for a 5.1 set up. Which one???????


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I would go with the 818 though the Denon is no slouch.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

I don't have experience with the 818 but did have a 4311 as well as a Onkyo 5508 and 3008. If the 818 is anything like the other 2 Onkyo's I have owned then I would go with it over the 4311 even if they were the same price.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

I should add that some people prefer Denon's over Onkyo though. I don't have an allegiance to either brand but when I had both in my home for demo it was an easy decision to go with the Onkyo. It could be that my system leans more towards what the Onkyo does best, I have a friend that preferred the Denon over a Onkyo 886.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
If planning on using external amplification, the Denon's Preamp Only Mode turns off the internal amplification and is quite handy. In addition, I do like that Denon offers Audyssey's Flat Curve that can only be engaged by the Onkyo when it is set to THX with RE-EQ off. In addition, the Denon offers Airplay.

The Onkyo offers a slightly better Video Processor that happens to be the finest Video Processing tandem on the market with HQV Vida and Marvell Qdeo. I also do think the Onkyo offers a more powerful amplifier stage.
Cheers,
JJ


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> If planning on using external amplification, the Denon's Preamp Only Mode turns off the internal amplification and is quite handy. In addition, I do like that Denon offers Audyssey's Flat Curve that can only be engaged by the Onkyo when it is set to THX with RE-EQ off. In addition, the Denon offers Airplay.
> 
> The Onkyo offers a slightly better Video Processor that happens to be the finest Video Processing tandem on the market with HQV Vida and Marvell Qdeo. I also do think the Onkyo offers a more powerful amplifier stage.
> ...


I heard the pre amp mode on or off makes no difference in sound. Its this true?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

asere said:


> I heard the pre amp mode on or off makes no difference in sound. Its this true?


If nothing else, it should most certainly reduce power consumption. While I do think the differences between it being engaged or not are going to be all but impossible to discern, less heat generated can only help in regards to long term stability;


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> If nothing else, it should most certainly reduce power consumption. While I do think the differences between it being engaged or not are going to be all but impossible to discern, less heat generated can only help in regards to long term stability;


Its the thx on the Onkyo that makes me lean more towards them. Also why does the 4311 have 2 remotes?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Dedicated RC for the Zones I believe,


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

By a receiver having better amplification does that mean its more audible at same volume level compared side by side with an inferior amp?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

No, not audible but it will have less or no distortion compared to a lesser amp. Distortion is going to give you poor sound quality and will damage speakers more than too much power will.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> No, not audible but it will have less or no distortion compared to a lesser amp. Distortion is going to give you poor sound quality and will damage speakers more than too much power will.


How can I find out how much distortion my current amp has?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

That gets complicated but what speakers do you have?


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> That gets complicated but what speakers do you have?


The brand if Proficient made by Speakercraft. In ceiling.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

do you have model numbers or at least the specifications from them?


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> do you have model numbers or at least the specifications from them?


The models are C605 and 660


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

well the C605's are 8Ω with a Sensitivity of 90dB 1W/1m at 75 Watts with a Frequency Response of 45Hz - 20kHz

The C660's are rated at 8Ω with a Sensitivity of 92dB and handle 125 watts with a Frequency Response of 36Hz - 22kHz
So truthfully a receiver thats rated at 110 watts per channel would have no issues with driving them. Now that said how far are they away from your listening position? Do they fire down at the floor or at you?


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> well the C605's are 8Ω with a Sensitivity of 90dB 1W/1m at 75 Watts with a Frequency Response of 45Hz - 20kHz
> 
> The C660's are rated at 8Ω with a Sensitivity of 92dB and handle 125 watts with a Frequency Response of 36Hz - 22kHz
> So truthfully a receiver thats rated at 110 watts per channel would have no issues with driving them. Now that said how far are they away from your listening position? Do they fire down at the floor or at you?


The center tweeter fires towards me but l,r fires more diagonal because the tweeter is fixed and the speaker is on the part of the ceiling that is vaulted. The l,r are the same specs as surrounds. The center is the only different one. I should have gotten the l,r same a center. That's what being a newbie does to you.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I would be more concerned with simply over driving them due to the placement not being ideal but I know that everyone makes sacrifices to make it work in the space provided. 90db sensitivity is decent and make them not hard to drive.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> I would be more concerned with simply over driving them due to the placement not being ideal but I know that everyone makes sacrifices to make it work in the space provided. 90db sensitivity is decent and make them not hard to drive.


The Onkyo 818 does 135 watts. would that be too much for my speakers?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Uou can never to much power, just dont get carried away with the volume and make sure you use a decent sub that will take some of the pressure off the main speakers.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> Uou can never to much power, just dont get carried away with the volume and make sure you use a decent sub that will take some of the pressure off the main speakers.


I have a Hsu vtf 3 mk4 because of placement Audyssey set the center at 80, and left, right at 120 crossover but I don't want to drop to 80 because there will be a gap on the filters.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The HSU with be ok with 120Hz it just may be a little more localized at those frequencies but its better to let the HSU do the most work.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> The HSU with be ok with 120Hz it just may be a little more localized at those frequencies but its better to let the HSU do the most work.


Thanks for the helpful information!


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## nolia (Sep 2, 2010)

I had a Onkyo 809 for 6 months and it was an improvement from my Yamaha 2065. I have since bought a 4311 on a knocked down price since it was too good to turn down. Muscle power I do believe the Denon is a beast, the Onkyo 809's amplification is the same as the 818. On the video side of things I know the 818 is far superior but as in raw power I am sure the Denon can bang those speakers and it wouldn't struggle in a bigger room. The best is try a demo, I don't know how it works in US.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

I currently own one sub with a 7.1 receiver. If I decide to get a second sub what would I need a Y adapter? Also Audyssey would eq one sub but how can I eq the second one?


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

Both the Denon 4311 and Onkyo 818 have 2 subwoofer outputs. If you are talking about a different receiver with only a single subwoofer out then you can connect a y-cable to connect both subs.

Audyssey will EQ all the subs that are connected even if you only have 1 sub out. When multiple subwoofers are connected to a single LFE output they all share the same signal, there not discrete like the Left, right and center channels which all receive different information. Therefore if you have 1 or 10 subwoofers connected they will all be EQ'ed as one source according to Audyssey and most other automated EQ's out there. 

Now Audyssey does have SubEQ which is on the Denon 4311 but not the Onkyo 818. This has 2 subwoofer outs that are first processed separately by Audyssey for Distance and Levels only, then both subs are EQ'ed as once source.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

sub_crazy said:


> Both the Denon 4311 and Onkyo 818 have 2 subwoofer outputs. If you are talking about a different receiver with only a single subwoofer out then you can connect a y-cable to connect both subs.
> 
> Audyssey will EQ all the subs that are connected even if you only have 1 sub out. When multiple subwoofers are connected to a single LFE output they all share the same signal, there not discrete like the Left, right and center channels which all receive different information. Therefore if you have 1 or 10 subwoofers connected they will all be EQ'ed as one source according to Audyssey and most other automated EQ's out there.
> 
> Now Audyssey does have SubEQ which is on the Denon 4311 but not the Onkyo 818. This has 2 subwoofer outs that are first processed separately by Audyssey for Distance and Levels only, then both subs are EQ'ed as once source.


So with one sub out same eq and distance vs with 2 sub outs same eq but different distance?


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

asere said:


> So with one sub out same eq and distance vs with 2 sub outs same eq but different distance?


Not only different distances which is phase but also different volume levels but you can do both on your own if you know what your doing.


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## HT nut (Aug 31, 2011)

before u buy the 818 u better read about the 24 fps bug


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

HT nut said:


> before u buy the 818 u better read about the 24 fps bug


Hello,
Onkyo gas acknowledged the issue and if you have a BDP with dual HDMI Outputs this really is not an issue.
While my 3008 does not have this issue, I have always connected HDMI 1 of my BDP directly to the TV and HDMI 2 to the AVR for processing. 

In addition, you could also use the HDMI Sub Output which will bypass all video processing and simply connect HDMI 1 for OSD Setup. While I do think this is a very annoying issue, my personal viewing is probably 75% TV and 25% BDP. It is quite interesting that none of the professional reviews that I have seen have made a mention of it. Regardless, I am glad you brought this up.
Cheers,
JJ


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I expect Onkyo will have a firmware fix for this soon.


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## HT nut (Aug 31, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> I expect Onkyo will have a firmware fix for this soon.


u think they will?
i hope so


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I would think so, they have been good at resolving issues in the past.


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## randyc1 (Jul 20, 2011)

sub_crazy said:


> The 4311 has XT32 with SubEQ, I believe the 818 only has XT32 but not SubEQ.
> 
> SubEQ only adjusts the distance and levels of 2 subs, it EQ's them as one LFE source after that though, just like the 818 would do without SubEQ. If you manually set-up the distance and levels then it will be the same.
> 
> Isn't the 4311 about twice the price of the Onkyo 818?


Does SubEQ measure only PHYSICAL distance or does it also measure any electronic delay that may occur with something like a Anti mode or Mini dsp hooked to the SUB ???


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## randyc1 (Jul 20, 2011)

sub_crazy said:


> The 4311 has XT32 with SubEQ, I believe the 818 only has XT32 but not SubEQ.
> 
> SubEQ only adjusts the distance and levels of 2 subs, it EQ's them as one LFE source after that though, just like the 818 would do without SubEQ. If you manually set-up the distance and levels then it will be the same.
> 
> Isn't the 4311 about twice the price of the Onkyo 818?


...Now im confused,...Are you saying the 818 does'nt have automatic distance calculation,if it does'nt have SubEQ ???

Manually setting the Distace ONLY takes into account the Physical Distance not any Acoustical delays caused by Low Pass Filters,.. that's why Audessey Sub distance is often longer than actual Physical distance.


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## sub_crazy (Nov 17, 2007)

randyc1 said:


> ...Now im confused,...Are you saying the 818 does'nt have automatic distance calculation,if it does'nt have SubEQ ???
> 
> Manually setting the Distace ONLY takes into account the Physical Distance not any Acoustical delays caused by Low Pass Filters,.. that's why Audessey Sub distance is often longer than actual Physical distance.


The 818 does have auto distance but for only 1 sub out, not 2 sub outs like the Denon 4311 and the other higher end Onkyo's and Integra's with XT32 and SubEQ. 

SubEQ basically adds individual sub distance and levels for 2 subs, XT32 adds in the higher resolution EQ. I didn't know at first that XT32 could be had without SubEQ but that is the case with the 818, I guess so they could keep the price point lower.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
As the previous XT32 AVR/SSP's were all at least $2000 MSRP, it only stands to reason why the much lower priced 818 would not also have SubEQ HT. In addition, with the 1010, 3010, and 5010 all slotted above the 818, there is also the concerns about the 818 cannibalizing the sales of the more expensive models.

Regardless, the LFE Channel does benefit from the much higher resolution filtering over an MultEQ XT AVR. And truth be told, with so many only using a single subwoofer, the loss of SubEQ HT is not always an issue.
Cheers,
J


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

don't want to highjack the thread so is there an official 818 discusion thread? I have some questions

cheers


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