# Must make new home construction theater decision soon!



## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

I am building a new home and my contractor suggested a young man to help with surround system. He immediately recommended an NXG system based on good sound at great price though price, he is finding out, is not the ultimate driving factor. He also recommended Atlantic Technology as a 2nd option if I could spend more, and I can. After joining your site, I now know I should have been shopping for months before having to make this decision. I live in a small town and do not have many options for listening to quality speakers. I have 2 questions. How to decide quickly on a surround system in the $2-3K range AND will this surround sound 5.1 system satisfy my greater desire for listening to music or should I purchase a separate 2 speaker system for my music enjoyment. Help, and Thanks for any insight you can offer!


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

What have you had previously and which did you prefer?

I could give you many recommendations but they would only be based on my opinion and budget. You may prefer other types.


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

Thank you very much for your reply! Some background might be helpful. 

I have never owned a surround sound system. For live performance, I use a small Bose Compact L1 which makes voice, guitar and piano sound natural without false coloration so when watching a concert on TV or a movie, I have just plugged the bose stick into my flat screeen and enjoyed a better sound than the TV offered. For Music Only purposes, I own an old version of a JBL studio, always "flat". NOTE: I will listen to music MORE OFTEN than watch movies, so I have hoped that speakers chosen would double as a front duo that would satisfy my demanding taste for natural sounding music speakers. IF that is not possible, I'd rather spend less on a surround system and spend more on 2 music speakers for my "music world" OR let the music speakers be a future purchase? My answer to your question about budget will be for the surround and music speakers only, not including labor, etc. I am definitely willing to spend $2K and might be willing to go $3K, maybe more?? In addition, I will also install a "ceiling speaker" in 3 rooms and patio, but NOT looking for a whole house sound system. Your comments on a "ceiling speaker" would be appreciated, as well. In-Wall speakers are a necessity for the surround system, though the 2 front L/R speakers could be housed floor level behind cabinet doors with a grille or cloth on front. Back ones will be hidden in a large upper section dividing the living room and kitchen areas. Ceilings in the room are 18-20 feet. Based on the quote below your post, I will STOP now and be very appreciative of your response! kf


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

First off, Welcome to the Shack. 
My experience has been that in-wall speakers are a whole different animal. My guess is that speakers available in your budget would not satisfy your "demanding taste for natural sounding music speakers". I know you really want to make a decision soon but is there any way you can go audition some of the speakers you are considering?

The installer is also a key component of in-wall speakers. Make sure they know what they are doing as you cannot move the speakers to enhance the sound once they are in place. Though some speakers do have a limited ability to tilt or swivel within their mounts.

Another important factor is the "back box". Many of the less expensive in-wall speakers do not use any type of enclosure using a free air design that relies on your 2x4's and drywall. I have yet to hear a great sounding system that uses this type of speaker.

I have heard quite a few in-wall home theater systems over the years. Triad Speakers systems I have heard were all fantastic, as were the RBH Sound and James Loudspeakers systems. I have also heard a few Polk, JBL, Infinity, Atlantic Technology and Definitive Technology that were, well, better than the TV speakers. This is just my experience and I do not know if the installers of those systems were at fault or if it was the speakers.

So if at all possible get out there and listen to some systems before you pull the trigger.


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

Great response. Great advice. My learning curves continues based on your response and my continued research. Just 10 minutes ago, became aware of Triad speakers and have left message to find a listening room within 100 miles of my location. Again, thanks!


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

Mark, your response to me was tempered with much wisdom and genuine concern that I would do the "right thing". Finally, today, I got to listen to some Triad Bronze speakers. I had upgraded my budget from $3-4K up to $10K or more, as you suggested. Here is what "HIT ME' today, though, when listening to the bronze and silver speakers. They DO sound great, but without the sub, they would never meet my demands for a great MUSIC speaker. Maybe having 6 of them going at the same time ... ?? Since I have never been a movie enthusiast and likely never will be, but AM a music enthusiast and always will be, my experience today made me go back to the drawing board and wonder if I should forego a high end surround sound system and instead, spend a third of my budget on an Atlantic Tech or equivalent system and then the lion's share of my budget on 2 state of the art music speakers that would wow the music man inside me. I know you cannot truly answer this for me ... but do YOU think that 6 Triad Bronze and a 12" sub would satisfy the demand in me for a critical music system in addition to being a great surround system? 

Last question, IF I were willing to spend whatever it took to find 2 speakers that would satisfy the "flat" concert style sound that I desire ... would you name a few companies that excel in that high-end stereo market? I will likely drive to Dallas or other major market area to listen to speakers in the next week or so, but could not pass up the opportunity to from hear you again on this subject. Again, thank you very much for you kind input! Any follow-up thoughts will be great appreciated! kf


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Are you still only wanting in wall speakers?

For a budget, such as you stated, there are quite a few speakers out there that I would suggest listening to if you are not looking for in wall. If wanting only in wall then please disregard my comment.


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

Right now, this can go 2 directions: And again, thank you for the time you are giving me! Much Appreciated! 

1) Very modest in-wall small surround system (NXG/Atlantic/etc.) for that occasional movie and maybe it would enhance watching HD tv and an occasional tv concert and fill in the room for rv ... BUT, when it came to music time, I would have, in addition, 2 separate floor MUSIC speakers that would bring the music to life, as my studio JBL's have done for the past 30 years in this small modest home. In my thought process, these 2 speakers might not need the help of a sub to get the job done. These 2 speakers would NOT be in wall, but likely sitting behind the 2 bottom cabinet doors on either side of the fireplace, with grilles on front. The way the room is designed, there really is no place for super large speakers to be "out" in the open, though there is still time to design the cabinets to fit a specific speaker. We are drawing the living room cabinets on either side of the fireplace this week. 

2) The 2nd scenario is to find and get comfortable with a surround sound system of high enough quality that it will first satisfy the need for superb music reproduction (I would likely get comfy with music coming from all sides and not my normal 2 speaker front) and then, of course, this system would double as wonderful for TV and that occasional new or old movie. But, I am no longer willing to sacrifice my music for an occasional movie. Note: I thought that the Triad Golds were $1K each, but now they are closer to $2K each, so by the time I bought 6 of these (one of my installers says 7 speakers is the minimum for true surround system - you can comment on that, though, I think I agree?) that is $12K and we are near my budget and have not bought amps, wiring or speakers for patio and 3 other rooms in the house. The golds would take me to $20K+ and I don't think I need to go there for a speaker system. So, now you see my thought process. Would 7 Golds and a nice Sub satisfy my music experience ... I would think so? But, will 6 of the Bronze 5" with sub do it? Not sure after sitting in his "small" room listening yesterday while considering my very large room. 

Again, thanks for wading through all my words to hear my heart! Note: I am a 5 hour drive from Dallas on any day. Next Thursday, I will be in Denver with about 3 hours to spare if you knew of a great listening room. I will be in NY on Monday and Tuesday, though I would have to stay an extra day if I were to listen there and lose my only day in the office next week?? Dallas or Denver would work best if you know of a spot in either place?


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

My biggest concern would be placement choices. You mentioned having these speakers behind a grille in a cabinet or something like that. What height does the cabinet go up to?

I am curious if the speakers will be abled to be toed in or not? If they will rest at ear height or not also?

For store bought speakers it is just a matter of what do you want to spend and do you have time for a sit down with them for at least an hour. I would suggest looking at JTR's speakers such as the 8HT (triple 8) or if you have the room the triple 12's.








Or have a look at Mark Seaton's Catalyst speaker









BUT what is the ideal size you would like to stay with in for external dimensions for your L/R speaker?

I can list you a huge list of speakers that I like but it comes down to what fits your criteria. Clearly budget is the easy part here but we just need to work out the other requirements to narrow the list down. I think just using a very high quality L/R speaker would be the way to go for your requirements. Just add in small surrounds and be done. So when you watch a movie you have the surround sound but the money mainly goes to the L/R speaker. Only other concern would be the center channel. Listening to DVD's you might notice a tonal or timbre change in sound going from a pan from left-center -right. So if this bothers you then you may want to buy 3 of the same high quality speakers for the front stage.

I myself cant have two different types of speakers up front. I need 3 of the exact same speakers but the surrounds are not as much of a concern to me.

SO tell us more and I will narrow down some of my suggestions. I only gave you a few suggestions but can think of about 20-30 off the top of my head.


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

Thank you so much for your latest thoughts. It's Mark, isn't it? 

My builder says the current configuration of the 2 cabinets are 36" high on outside but only about 30-32" on the inside. They are NOT built yet, only in drawing stage, but he is a stickler for proper proportions between fireplace center section and the 2 side sections with cabinet in bottom and book cases above the cabinets, so he is certainly NOT going to draw a cabinet 5 feet high with bookcases starting from there. So, do we have some wiggle room, yes ... but not lots, is my educated guess. 

When I first looked at the speaker pictures, my thought was "No tweeters"? How can a high-end speaker have NO tweeter?? BUT, I AM enjoying the prospect of finding a speaker built by a gifted, artistic craftsman that is not from a department store, cookie cutter mentality! 

I listened to NXG speakers today. NO WAY! I definitely want to head the direction of 2 very nice up front speakers, maybe 3 if the 3rd one can go sideways and there is enough room above the TV unit And then add 2 in the rear for occasional use. So, while you are offering suggestions, I now believe the 2 back ones do not have to be top of the line, but they cannot be NXG, so suggestions there would be helpful. This installer likes Atlantic and I will listen to that system tomorrow. 

I want to place a ceiling speaker(s) in the dining room, bathroom, outdoor patio and possibly the kitchen area possibly that extends from the living room. Suggestions for in-ceiling speakers would be helpful. I do NOT want NXG's $100 models! 

Can I assume that we have now eliminated the need for a big SUB, and just let the 2 high-end front speakers handle the bass? One last question ... should I ever consider doing a "re-cone" or other treatment to my 2 old JBL studio monitors or just let them fade into the distance. They are not what they once were (25 years). They are fading quickly and fairly harsh at volumes other than very low! Thanks again VERY much for your help.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

A subwoofer is still needed. Music may only play down to a certain frequency but movies do not. Having capable mains is a start but you will still need a sub to take the load off of your mains. While some L/R speakers can play down to 20hz it is amazing what adding in a subwoofer does. Sounds so much more lively and aids in punch and clarity. That being said you want to make sure the sub is integrated well so it feels like the sub is not there but the L/R just go lower.

Secondly if you are will to do a recone why not consider DIY speakers? And which model JBL's do you have?

Most of the time we should aim for having the speaker aimed at our ears, so roughly 25-32" for height. But if they are set lower or higher we only need to tilt the speaker down or up. So if you only have 32" to play with then a speaker around 30" tall max would be my suggestion. How wide are the speaker locations?

For now the JTR Triple 8 would be one suggestion along with Mark's Catalyst 8c. DO you ever travel to Atlanta?

Atlanta has another speaker designer named Tom Danley. Danley Sound labs. Those speakers to me are the best of the best, but are not cheap and not small. Mark Seaton and Tom used to work together and are definitely world class designers. Both make amazing products. Marks 8c is fully powered and could be connected directly to a Oppo 103 for pure music delight. Then add in a powered subwoofer and your 2 channel setup is done. I am a big fan of purity and media player to speaker is about as pure of a signal as your going to get.

I will have a look at some more surrounds. BUT for the money that you have suggested as a budget $100 per speaker will not cut it. 

My name is David by the way.


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

Thank you, David! I know Mark has been visiting with me, also. Actually, I'm pretty blown away by the time and energy you all are gifting to me and I will pass it on in areas where I am as strong as you are in this area. Very insightful questions, some I can answer, some not until I get with builder over the week-end and look at his cabinet drawings. I will answer your questions in the order you posed them and look forward to your response. BTW, every time you guys mention something I have never heard before, I stop and google it. i.e., Tom Danley, what a story. The Seaton speakers - wow and the JRT 8ht would likely fit in my cabinet. The Danley's all look too large. 

Sounds like I must first choose speakers before picking a sub to make sure they "fit"! That is my top priority, in addition to building our first home, building a business, 3 new grandchildren, and that is why DIY does not sound appealing right now. MY JBL's are Model 4312A. 

The height and width of cabinet will be worked out over the week-end. Obviously, this is not the order you build a great system. The dimensions for the 3 unit living room wall system was in place before I got serious. Out of order, I know, but it is what is! With your and Mark's help, I will make the best and the best will be great! 

I listened to the $100 NXG's today, thinking I might get by with a couple in the back, but no way. So, in review, here are my decisions, as I see it, and in approximate order. I have a competent installer who does lights and sound for concerts and installs surround systems. But, you guys are light years beyond his ability to offer the advice that you are offering and I will continue to say how grateful I am for your input. I have asked Seaton and JTR for listening rooms within 300 miles of me. Have not heard back from them yet. 

1. Determine cabinet dimensions
2. 2 Front L/R speakers 
3. 1 Center Channel Speaker
4. Sub to match
5. 2 back surround speakers
6. Power to drive system
7. Ceiling speakers for 3 rooms


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Just thought I would add a video for you. I have seen this guys videos countless times. I really like the old big cabinet JBL speakers. There is better technology today but these old speakers hold a sentimental value to me. So you may want to just recone your JBL and keep them some where.


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

chrapladm, 

I think 2 great guys have responded to me, though not sure other than David and Mark. Thanks for your help! 

I relate to the sentimentality about my JBL's. I'm with you ... I would never get rid of my JBL's. And I will likely re-cone in the future but I am not counting on them for my new living room configuration. I'll ask later about re-coning. 

Met with builder and it is not possible to get EXACT and FIRM dimensions on the inside of my cabinets. A very educated guess is minimum of 28" high inside and maybe as much as 32"ish by lowering the bottom closer to floor, etc. ... might get 34" ... but that would have to be the top. So, when considering your important point of toe-in from floor position, my "guess" is no speaker over 30" inch high, to be fairly safe. Your recommendation of JRT's Triple8's more than meets these requirements, though I know you wanted me to listen to more than the JRT only. Mark Seaton's Catalyst were 40ish high and double the price. IF the JRT's were found to be "my style", I can buy 2 3X8ht's, 1 of the 3x8lp, 2 slanted 8ht's and a sub-woofer for a full surround sound and within my new budget. NOTE: The 2 slanted 8ht's leave 1/4" on top and bottom of the only holes available for the back speakers. I don't want to sound too mystical here,  but with your recommendation of the JRT's and all the reviews and threads I have read ... just can't believe I would not enjoy the sound. FYI, I offered to Jeff to buy 2 and pay shipping to and back if I did not like them. He has no-one in my area for listening, so I thought I would make the offer. 

SO, I am now ready for any other suggestions for listening to suggested speakers. I will be in Denver Thursday afternoon if you know of a listening room. I am wide open for ideas. I pre-wire the house tomorrow for sound, internet, and tv. We are running wire to all the places that I know will have a speaker and hoping for the best. I could not put off the builder any longer. He has been patient with me and meeting you has been the answer to my dilemma ... and I will try to repay you guys in some tangible ways for your kindness and expertise. 

FYI ... I love local stories of success ... my financial planning practice is a local success story, but when I called the JRT 800 number and Jeff answered on a Friday evening, I must admit that I now WANT his speakers to be my answer. I LOVE local folks who dream big, keep it simple and find a way to "do" their dream, not just talk about it! Jeff seemed like a superb human specimen!  Thanks for your suggestions. 

NOTE: I would not trust my installer to make these kinds of speaker decisions for me, but I do trust him to get it wired right and the holes cut, etc. He is running speaker wire and lots of Cat5 for internet and phones tomorow ... is there a specific minimum size speaker wire that he should be running for quality speakers?? One installer said he runs Cat 6 instead of 5, but did not say why? Any thoughts on that? Again, THANKS! Ken


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

_*CAT-8C

Internally tri-amplified (500W-350W-150W) loudspeaker
8" coaxial midrange w/Neodymium magnet 1" HF driver
dual, custom 8" sealed woofers
Intended operating range: 65-20,000 Hz
28" H x 11" W x 11.625" D
65 lbs
Neodymium Magnetic grill retention (no grill pegs!)
$2,495 each + shipping 
*_
So these will fit also. Marks 8C is more expensive but this is a fully active powered loud speaker. SO with the additional high quality plate amp that is why the 8C is so much more than the JTR's. BOTH are great designs with countless happy customers. Also there are some Danley Synergy horn speakers that will fit in your 28" height. It is just a matter of how wide do you have to work with. BUT in saying this Danley speakers are very expensive. They are not powered and close to the same price as the 8C. BUT from everyone who has taken the plunge they all say this is the last speaker they will ever buy.

So with either of the three I think you will be pleasantly surprised and happy. Just remember by going with the JTR's make sure you get a powerful amp to drive those speakers. Having small amounts of power aya sound nice but the speaker will really come alive with having LOTS of power.(Around 1000watts to each Triple 8) And Marks have about the same amount of power.

Having enough power helps with dynamics and everything else. And the best thing about all these manufacturers I have suggested is that you can speak with all of them. Instead of like the big brands whom you would never be able to speak to the designers.


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

Thank you for such a quick response! I have never worked with "powered" speakers. Does that mean you would only be buying a "mixer" and not a power amp?? I will research some on my trip. It sounded like you are suggesting that I would need an amp with 5000 watts if I use 5 JTR speakers? The Onkyo amp that my guy was suggesting was not near that much power! Ken


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Your Onkyo would probably have plenty of power. I am only suggesting to get the most from your speakers you will need a lot more wattage than 100-150watts. Usually having double the rated RMS rating is what you would want ideally. BUT you dont NEED to have this. Just something you can use down the road to get everything out of your speakers. If buying an Onkyo just try and get one with preouts for all the channels.

Do you have a Blu Ray player yet?

If you dont I would highly recommend using a Oppo 103 BR player. This BR player can be connected to a hard drive and you can play all your music files from the player. Or you can use the BR player as a preamp and connect your powered speakers directly to the player. Or if using the JTR speakers you can connect the BR player to your power amps and then to your JTR speakers.

So many options to utilize. When going with just a AVR such as the Onkyo you will only have to have one unit and a BR player for electronics. When using just a BR player you would have to have separate amps for the speakers. Which means more components.

SO its up to you. If you want to minimize as much as possible then the AVR and BR player are all you need. If you like to have the most out of everything then the separates would be the better option although take up more room. But it would be bet to tell your builder of this so he knows what you are trying to shelve.

Having a nice glass door to cover all the electronics would be nice. Or even a simple door with a grille across the frame. BUT you need to make sure there is plenty of ventilation if doing this. 

Lots of things to consider and usually best to work with the builder. IN saying that just do a little homework and then you will know what questions to ask.

Cat5 is an older cabling that it used for networking through out homes. Cat5e is better and has faster speeds and the newer Cat6 is even better. SO since this is a new install I would suggest using Cat 6. You would not notice the difference between the Cat5 vs Cat6 but always best to go with the better technology to prevent from having to upgrade down the road. If he only does Cat5 then dont sweat it. Maybe ask for Cat5e or Cat6 but not a specific need or anything.

Most of the time 16 gauge would be enough for speaker wiring in the walls. BUT I prefer to have 12-14 gauge myself. If having a short run then 16 is plenty but if needing to carry a lot of power and long way, 50ft, then I would go up one size at least. SO many questions that I am sure the installer could answer also. BEST to let him know what your thinking and see what kind of answers he says.


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## BD55 (Oct 18, 2011)

As maybe an addendum to what chrapladm said, make sure to use real AWG rated wiring. Not only would wiring that only said "XX Gauge" on it as the gauge probably not really be equivalent to AWG, but it likely also would be of inferior quality.


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

Last barrage of questions ... probably!  

I said I would do some research while travelling, and then I thought where else will I research this next level with someone I trust more than you??? Duh! 

Until I get the exact Width dimensions of my cabinets, I cannot be completely sure there will be room for both a speaker AND a Sub. Is it always preferential to mount a speaker like the JTR triple8 or the Seaton AC-8 on the floor toed-up to listening level OR would 8-9’ high above the fireplace and tv unit, mounted on their SIDE, toed-down to listening level be equally acceptable? If both spots were equally available, which is preferred?? Note: I know that about 25” high is true preference, but that is NOT available. This band above the TV is where I will mount the center speaker. IF the floor cabinet becomes unworkable, is the high mount (on its side) acceptable?? 

Concerning the speakers themselves, since the Seaton comes with amps, I suppose that would save money by not having to buy an amp as compared to buying the JTR without amps. I cannot find a current Seaton website with pictures and dimensions, but in a thread, I saw that the Sparks are Seaton’s back speaker offerings and at 17”, I know they will not fit in my 12” spot. Would 3 of the Seaton AC-8’s in the front work well with 2 of Jeff’s Slanted 8’s in the back? NOTE: Is the reason you suggested that each channel in the amp have its own line out so that you could use the power in the amp to power, for example, the JTR’s and NOT the Seaton’s? OR, would it just be wiser to stick with ONE company. IF ONE, that would lean to JTR because of size of back speakers. But, I think I hear “between the lines” that you might personally prefer the newer Seaton speaker above the JTR for MUSIC if money is not the sole issue?? Yes, I also hear you say clearly that ANY of them will delight my ears compared to what I have been listening to!  

Maybe my final question concerning speakers and configuration: If choosing the JTR’s 5 speaker system, which sub do you recommend so I can finalize those measurements in my cabinet? 
If choosing a combo of Seatons l/r/c and JTR slanted 8’s in back, which sub would you recommend? 
If I could choose a 5 Seaton system, which sub would you prefer? 
I thank you for the recommendation of the Blue Ray player. Sounds smart and I WILL do it without any further research. My wife will hardly believe that I will just accept your wisdom and buy something without lots of research. But I do appreciate all that has come from you! Thanks!


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

It is hard to suggest which speaker unless I am listening to them in your room. I like the fact that BOTH JTR and Mark are available to chat with on forums. This makes chatting with them easy and getting questions answered. I like the Seatons better only because there is a powered version. BUT I would like to have either of them. When using the JTR's you only need to have about solid 200watts and you will be happy. I am a DIY guy who tries to get every ounce of performance out of my speakers even though I use about 10% most of the time.

You can mix and match all you want. I think going with which size works best would be the best option. So still with whom ever one you want and you cant go wrong. If money was no object I would say get the SH50's from Danley. Danley's SH speaker lineup is my favorite. After that comes the Seaton/JTR's. Now id I add in DIY then everything changes. BUT I will not confuse you. 

I cant get on the JTR website as of now but I think he makes a HT sub called the Captivator. So which ever company you chose to go with they all make an awesome product and I would suggest just using all the speakers from the same company. 

You can place a speaker anywhere you want. It does not have to be on a stand. There are many other variables involved with placement but there are a LOT of work arounds also. SO usually its a journey finding a speaker you want AND can afford. After that it then is a matter of setting up your speakers and then fine tuning everything with some sort of room eq software such as REW. Then add in some room treatments to make the room more "dead," and your set.

This is your money so which ever you prefer to spend just go from there. I am also very interested in what this builder is going to build to hold these speakers and/or subs.

If going with the JTR's you can also just get an external 3 channel amp from Emotiva to power the front channels. Will be considerable cheaper than going with the powered versions from Mark. Marks plate amps that he uses are very nice and powerful and that is why they are so expensive. BUT for about 700-1000, depending on what is out now, you could easily power all 3 channels.

Lastly is there any idea of the room sizes yet or dimensions of cabinet?

If you are able to use a sub in the corner and have plenty of room then one sub might be best for you. The sub will be corner loaded and have a lot more gain to it. Saying that you could go with a smaller sub. IF you are restricted to center of wall placement then hopefully you will have enough room to support a larger sub. Such as 20"wide x 20" tall. It would be best to have a pair of subs and even a pair of simple sealed 12's in the L/R corners of the room would work.

BUT so many variables and unknowns that it is still hard to suggest what will work best. I can only suggest amazing quality speakers that would work given what I think you have to work with. Last question for now, has the builder built an AV cabinet before?


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

On either side of the fireplace are 2 cabinets ... one on left is for speaker, the other left is for AV equipment, on the right are the sub and the right speaker. All of the cabinet doors will be covered with some kind of screen so as not to impede sound. Is this what you meant by " has my builder ever built an AV cabinet?


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Just a general question as to if he had experience in building one before or not. My dad has built many cabinets for friends and others and when I started telling him about what I wanted in one it was all new to him. The cabinet itself was easy for him and the additional accessories that I wanted were easy to add on. BUT if your builder has done this before then he should be able to ask you all the questions he needs to know and there for complete a cabinet of your liking.

Do you have any sort of sketch of the cabinet yet?

There are so many ways to build this cabinet that I would only being guessing in trying to figure out what works best for your room and wants.









Or modular like this








Or something all enclosed like this

















If I was the builder I would show you a bunch of different designs and then see what you like from there. Anything can be changed when custom building. BUT seeing a finished product would be best to get an idea of the outcome for a client.


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## english210 (Sep 5, 2013)

kenfletcher said:


> Right now, this can go 2 directions: And again, thank you for the time you are giving me! Much Appreciated!
> 
> 1) Very modest in-wall small surround system (NXG/Atlantic/etc.) for that occasional movie and maybe it would enhance watching HD tv and an occasional tv concert and fill in the room for rv ... BUT, when it came to music time, I would have, in addition, 2 separate floor MUSIC speakers that would bring the music to life, as my studio JBL's have done for the past 30 years in this small modest home. In my thought process, these 2 speakers might not need the help of a sub to get the job done. These 2 speakers would NOT be in wall, but likely sitting behind the 2 bottom cabinet doors on either side of the fireplace, with grilles on front. The way the room is designed, there really is no place for super large speakers to be "out" in the open, though there is still time to design the cabinets to fit a specific speaker. We are drawing the living room cabinets on either side of the fireplace this week.
> 
> ...


Going back to the original thoughts, you say your main concern is music, with movies/theater of secondary importance. Speakers are almost as personal as underwear, and the only way to know what's 'right' for you, is you listening to your music in your home environment. Very hard to do, I know. 

Whatever makes you happy for the music is likely to be more than ok for movies, so you can pursue the search without worrying too much about movie-sound. The sub, center channel and surround speakers are 'relatively' easy to integrate with your main speakers. 

I would do all I can to get the tweeters as close to your seated ear height as possible. Mounting high on the front wall and tilting down should be your last option. Toe in refers to the angle of the speakers relative to the flat plane of the front of the speakers/cabinet they'll be mounted in, not the tilt angle you get by leaning the speakers back. Any speaker you put into a cabinet is going to result in some level of compromise to the sound quality, and lets face it, any of us are dealing with compromise of some sort in the systems we build, whether it's location of the speakers, size of the room, or size of bank account, so accept that there will be compromise. Ideally, you will find speakers that work in the size limitations you have, and that should be possible, but at the same time, those size limits will preclude many very good options - compromise again - is it worth the effort to get the cabinet plans changed to allow for a particular speaker you find that you just have to have ??

It may be too late, but Listen Up in the Denver area is a store that can expose you to MANY options for speakers and installation options. There are likely many others, but you mentioned Denver, and I've seen them online, so I threw it out there.

I second the advice on the Oppo BDP103. Very versatile, great performance. 

As far as powered speakers/passive speakers with separate amplifiers, receiver, that's a personal choice. A receiver will have a power amp in it, and often more than enough of one to do well. It is also 'one box' for simplicity of installation, but depending on speakers, room size, and your volume preferences, separate amplification can make a very big difference. It did for me, but my speakers are old and inefficient.

I know, I'm posing more questions than answers, but it you have, or can make, the time to determine the answers that fit you, you will be FAR happier with the results than you can anticipate as of now.


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## jbrown15 (Dec 7, 2011)

If you're considering going with the Triple 8's from JTR but you want to listen to a lot of music I would suggest taking a look at the new Noesis line of speakers from JTR. The 228HT's would be better to go with over the Triple 8's, while I haven't personally heard the Triple 8's I did consider buying them at one point.

But shortly after that Jeff released the new 228HT's and I went with those. They are a horn/compression driver style speaker and are a little more refined over the Triple 8's for music. Both speakers cost the same though. I absolutely love my 228HT's, and before I bought them I did audition quite a few other fairly high end HT speakers.

I have a friend that was able to hook me up on some Paradigm Studio 100's and matching CC-690 centre channel speaker to demo for a week down in my theatre room. I was all set to buy them right up until I was finished demoing them, if the end I just didn't like them. As the volume went up, I liked them less and less. 

I've also had the chance to hear Klipsch RF-7's with RC-64 center channel and a full Klipsch Ultra 2 THX setup that a friend had in his theatre room. I can honestly say that I'd gladly take my JTR 228HT's over any of those setups.

If you can make them fit in your setup I would strongly suggest giving them a good look. They might be a little over your budget but IMO they are totally worth it. Also Jeff from JTR has some nice veneer finishes available if you weren't crazy about the standard black finish.


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

Those last 2 messages were very helpful. I am just now seeing them as my life got busy in multiple ways. Yesterday, I visited again with Jeff and will continue that conversation today so both replies were very timely for today, even though you wrote them a month ago! Thanks! 

I did not "see" the Noesis speakers you mentioned because there is no picture at the site, but based on your strong opinion, I will ask him about those today. The 14" depth "could be" a limiting factor. After several meetings with the builder and the cabinet maker, we are "close" to believing that Jeff's 3X8-lp might work in the bottom cabinets ... it appears there could be enough space on each side to accommodate those per Jeff's instructions on how to install. So again, very interested to know the dimensions on the new models you mentioned. 

I do "hear" you strongly say to let the installation near the top of ceiling be my LAST choice for the L/R speakers. In trying to keep the TV above the fireplace as LOW as possible to alleviate neck pain from looking up at the ceiling, it appears the trade-off is that the center speaker will have to be installed above the TV which puts it in that 8-9" area near the top of wall but below the start of ceiling. There is a cavity on either side of the TV center speaker ... above the L/R bookcases where the 3X8's could have gone with plenty of room to tilt them down and in toward the listener and have all 3 speakers "in-line" as L/C/R ... but I think I hear that FOR MUSIC, I will still be better satisfied with speakers on the floor tilted up and in to the listener. As you said, compromise is necessary when NOT having a dedicated theatre and a dedicated theatre we do NOT AND will NOT have! 

Bottom Line choices so far are: 3 Triple 8 LP's for front, UNSURE of which sub to choose, and 2 of the slanted single 8's for the back of the room. I have actually ordered 2 of the 8's to review in my home, but it is NOT too late to change the order. Still weeks away from delivery! 

Any further instructions or recommendations will be met with many thank you's as I proceed to make a final decision within 2-3 days! The cabinet maker is getting antsy and ready to build! And the builder does not want me to slow him up any longer than necessary! ANY MORE WORDS OF WISDOM FROM ANYONE? I AM ALL EARS!


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

To those of you who have been so kind to offer suggestions. I have ordered some JTR triple 8's and the captivator 2400. I'll add the slanted 8's early next year when the home is finished. 

NOW, on to an amp question. Jeff (JTR) suggested the ParaSound AR-51, but my installer says that is only for speakers and will not drive the TV, movies or the other in-ceiling speakers in various locations in the home? When you sink your money for a great AMP like the AR51, what do you then recommend for the AV inputs and the 2nd channel for in-ceiling rooms? 

What are your top 3 recommendations for an amp that will power Jeff's speakers very well and still do everything else it needs to do? 

Thanks! Ken


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Where will these amps be located at?

For simplicity the Emotiva poweramps are powerful enough to drive whatever you need. Then you can just add as many amps as you need for each channel. 

_*Amp wont power the TV?*_:huh: Not sure what he was saying.

If you wont be connecting the amps in the same room then pro audio power amps would be the best option. Best value for wattage.

SO what do you need still? What is your budget on the electronics? Do you have a preamplifier? Do you have an Oppo 103 yet? :bigsmile:


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

Dear chrapladm, 

I see you are an "early riser", too! Thank you for your response. Let me clarify the comments made by my friend. 

Ken to Friend: Have you ever heard of Parasound Amplifiers? 
Friend to Ken: The Parasound amps are very good quality, but they aren't made for surround sound with multiple inputs. 
Ken to Friend: Check the A51 as recommended by Jeff
Friend to Ken: I did, it's 5 channels but no AV inputs or Hdmi outs. The receiver is just to power the speakers. All of the receivers are to power the speakers only, you would still need another receiver for the zone 2 out and the AV ins and outs. 
Ken to Friend: What amp would you choose for equal power? 
Friend to Ken: Onkyo tx-nr5010

Let it be understood that my friend has NO knowledge about the JTR speakers except that he has read the specs. 

I have ceiling speakers in 2 other locations (outdoor patio and dining room) but each location has its own volume controls and could easily be powered by one source. 

I will end up with 3 Triple 8's in the upper front of room - Front L/C/R, one captivator 2400, lower front, and 2 single 8's in the upper back of room. PLEASE NOTE that I am primarily a music enthusiast and an occasional movie watcher. And my goal has always been to fold my sound ideas into "HER" living room in such a way that I can have great sound without HER living room looking like a theater. SO, for now, I have 3 openings about 8' high ... Left above bookcase, center above the TV, Right above the other bookcase, the Sub in a bottom right cabinet, and the components and amps in the left bottom cabinet. All up and down cabs will be covered in cloth for air and sound purposes. IF IF IF I simply cannot live with the sound coming from above (they will be lifted off cabinet bottom and tilted down and in to the listening area), then I still will have room for them in the lower cabinets (probably) - left and right. The Center speaker MUST be above the TV - no other choice. 

I have not purchased the OPPO BDP103 or 105 yet, but willing to do so immediately, especially if it part of a solution as I consider separate amps or combined receiver and amps. 

Your follow-up thoughts and further questions will be greatly appreciated. 
NOTE: There could still be the possibility of having the amps in a separate closet, though my guess is there is room in lower left cabinet ... obviously, as soon as I know which amps, I can measure and make that decision. Either location will have decent air flow, though not perfect! Again, thanks!


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

That Onkyo is a very nice Audio/Visual receiver.(AVR) If you went with something like this you would not NEED an external amp for the JTR's. Another AVR to look at would be the Denon AVR4520. There are many other AVR's in this same price point that you could look at also. 

BUT for me if I was using a JTR setup or larger I would use external amps for powering the speakers. At least for the front section and subs. Surround duties you can just use the AVR internal amps. Now again this is what I would use and want. I would not NEED this. I believe your subs have their own internal amps so that leaves us with just powering the front channels. I would look for something with 500watts for each channel. So the A51 would power the JTR's quite well. 

I don't know the prices on the Parasound equipment. BUT I am going to guess you could probably buy 3 pro audio power amps for less money. 

I come from a DIY background so seeing high prices I tend shy away from and find cheaper alternatives. That being said Parasound makes some nice equipment but I have never had the opportunity to try.


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

I've been quiet, haven't I? But it has not been quiet here as I have been listening to a couple of JTR's 3x8LP plus the captivator sub ... and it has been so enjoyable! I've listened to more music in the past 30 days than in the past couple of years. It's been such a joy to hear some of the nuances of music that you do not normally hear in a speaker system. With that said, I still wish I could have heard demos of multiple speakers but it is just not practical her in my small town ... SO, with your recommendation and with Jeff's speakers meeting all of my size requirement, and with the joy of hearing music through his speakers, I have decided to go with JTR for the entire system. He is even taking the "slant" out of his "slanted 8" so it will fire straight out of the only spot available for the back speakers while his 12 1/4" speakers fit perfectly in my 12 1/2 inch available slots. Add to that my several conversations with Jeff and as the great Christmas song says, "All is Well"!! I am ordering the additional 3 speakers this week so they will be here in time to install in new home after the painting ends. 

Also, this week, I need to settle on some amps. I would appreciate hearing more from anyone about amp selections, but for now, I will go with earlier advice about powering the front 3 speakers and then allow the receiver to power the back 2. I will look for Emotiva at 300-500 watts each, but again, welcome other options. 

In addition, I need to choose 4 "in-ceiling" speakers (2 for dining room and 2 for outdoor/covered patio). Since you introduced me to Jeff and JTR, I would now appreciate a suggestion about a ceiling speaker. I think they cut a hole for a 5-6" speaker, but could probably accommodate an 8" hole if that is the final decision. Once again, I do not have an unlimited budget, but am not willing to accept the original suggestion for a $100 speaker. I would be willing to spend $250 each, maybe even a few $ more IF needed to have a very nice, full sound during dinner or sitting out on the patio. Any suggestions? 

Also, because you took a genuine interest in my success, we have found a way to install the R/L 3X8's at ear level and still be nicely hidden for wife's aesthetic goals ... and we have dedicated a full bottom cabinet with cloth cover to house the massive Captivator. Again, All is Well! Thanks for helping me get to these new decision points. 

Concerning the Emotiva Amps or equivalent, do you have a favorite site to purchase these amps?


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Emotiva is purchased directly from them. For the money the cheapest per watt option is to buy a pro audio power amp. BUT for no noise Emotiva is a GREAT option.

Amps can get VERY expensive or you can use cheap pro audio amps to power everything. Pro audio tend to have fans that are not quiet. They can be easily modified so they are quiet though. SO options are endless. One of my favourite amps I have heard was way out of my price range and that was the Pass Labs X350.5 amp. MONSTER amp in size and power. But the big pro audio amp worked just as well and I have been happy.

I have wanted to get the Emotiva amps but never have yet. That being said I have heard from many happy customers that they perform fantastic. I would just get the biggest amount of power you can afford. Headroom is key. Most of the time you will only need 50watts but dynamics will eat up a lot of wattage. SO having lots of headroom will keep everything happy. At least in my opinion.

I have always liked the JBL coaxial ceiling speakers but I think they are much more expensive. Also I have only heard the bigger sized ones. I will have to do a search again and see what I can find on the ceiling speakers.

And where are those pictures of your custom cabinet?!!


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## jbrown15 (Dec 7, 2011)

kenfletcher said:


> I have decided to go with JTR for the entire system. He is even taking the "slant" out of his "slanted 8" so it will fire straight out of the only spot available for the back speakers while his 12 1/4" speakers fit perfectly in my 12 1/2 inch available slots


Wouldn't that just be the standard S8?...lol

As far as amps go the new second generation Emotiva XPA amps are great bang for the buck, and you should also take a look at Outlaw Audio's amps. They have some nice amps too, it's not going to take a lot of power to push your JTR speakers to reference levels.


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## jbrown15 (Dec 7, 2011)

As far as in ceiling speakers go, you should take a look at the Klipsch Ultra 2's or Reference series. 

The AVS store sells them, and last I heard they will usually sell them for really good prices.
http://shop.avscience.com/In-ceiling_c_70.html


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## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

In Ceiling
Boston HSi 470
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_065HSI470/Boston-Acoustics-HSi-470.html


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

Thanks to all of you who are sending suggestions for ceiling speakers. I will likely read specs on each one, then close my eyes and point to the winner!! I can tell that each one is a fine suggestion. Just as Jeff and JTR was a fine suggestion. 

Answer to the question about pictures of bookcase. It has not been built yet ... at least not with wood and nails ... only in our minds at this point. We have been waiting on our "Reversica unit" from Reversica.com for the TV mounts above the fireplace. The cabinet maker and contractor wanted to wait until we physically owned the Reversica so we could build everything in the bookcase section as one section! It is supposed to ship this week! 

I see the Emotiva amps that I might order, but I never did find the official site for ProAudio amps. Do you have a link to your suggested place to buy them. 

Again, thanks for the various links for the ceiling speakers. 

One last clarification would be nice. One of you suggested the Oppo BDP-105 or maybe the 103. I see where they are a $1000+ whereas a Sony Blu Ray is far, far less?? What exactly is the draw to this Oppo unit in addition to playing music or DVD's. I've already spent so much, it is no problem to spend another $1K on a unit if I know why I am spending more. 

Merry Christmas everyone and thanks for GIVING to me this Christmas season!! Blessings to you and your family and if you are alone this Christmas, do remember that you are NOT!! God is with you ... and so ... All is well!


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## jbrown15 (Dec 7, 2011)

kenfletcher said:


> Thanks to all of you who are sending suggestions for ceiling speakers. I will likely read specs on each one, then close my eyes and point to the winner!! I can tell that each one is a fine suggestion. Just as Jeff and JTR was a fine suggestion.
> 
> Answer to the question about pictures of bookcase. It has not been built yet ... at least not with wood and nails ... only in our minds at this point. We have been waiting on our "Reversica unit" from Reversica.com for the TV mounts above the fireplace. The cabinet maker and contractor wanted to wait until we physically owned the Reversica so we could build everything in the bookcase section as one section! It is supposed to ship this week!
> 
> ...


I would personally suggest the Oppo BDP-103D if you're going with a projector. The Oppo players are probably the best on the market and have excellent picture quality. My understanding is that the 105 is better if you listen to a lot of music and will be using it for playing music then spend the extra on the 105.


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## chrapladm (Jun 17, 2009)

Also Pro Audio amps is not a brand. Just a category of amps. These amps, such as Crown QSC Crest, are all used in professional audio setups. Setups such as commercial cinemas or concerts or dance clubs. 

I cant think of a better DVD player than the Oppo. I am sure there is one out there but it would cost about 2000 or possibly more.


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## ewardjr69 (Feb 25, 2013)

One other suggestion for in ceiling would be GoldenEar. They have 4 in ceiling offerings. I have 4 of the invisa 650 for my sides and surrounds. I'm also with the other members Emotiva and Oppo are great brands I own both.

Sent from my iPad using HTShack


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## kenfletcher (Sep 4, 2013)

Some follow up to your inspiring comments about Oppo, ceiling speakers and amps. 

1. I simply do not have the ability to read all the specs and really sense the differences between the Klipsch's, the Golden Ear models, the Boston, etc. ceiling speakers. I am willing to spend $250-$300 each, but I really might have to somehow draw straws since I have no way of hearing them. My only follow up question would be the same one I asked Jeff ... I like natural sounding reproduction ... not a lot of added bass, etc. I almost always run flat if flat sounds natural and it does with Jeff's speakers ... so of the 6-8 ceiling speakers mentioned, is one a model of natural sounding reproduction. The biggest difference I saw among them was the "tweeter" vs the "compression driver" for highs. Still got lots of questions on ceiling speakers. They will never be used at high volume ... but for dining and sitting on patio only! 

2. I am willing to buy the Oppo 105 since it was mentioned by one of you as a audiophile's dream and I DO listen to lot of music. I had NO idea that one player could reproduce sound or video better than another. I have been told that any brand of blue-ray disk player is equal to the next one? NOTE: I will not be using a projector for in-home movies. Also, I normally use a 5 changer CD players for music? Are you suggesting that the oppo will eliminate the need to have a CD player or my old Sony Blue ray for movies? 

3. Is the Emotiva XPR-5 overkill with Jeff's speakers. It's 5 channels at 400w each channel and $2,000. I'm willing to spend it, but the XPA-5 at 200w each is half the price IF 200w would be sufficient. I see that Jeff's 3x8's can handle up to 1200 watts and that is what the captivator sub has built in ... so I do NOT want to spend less and later wish I had been willing to spend more money for more power?? I was guessing that 400w should be the minimum, but I AM listening and giving GREAT weight to your comments. 

4. If I buy the Emotiva with 5 channel amps, what will I need to power the 2 dining room ceiling speakers and the 2 outdoor patio ceiling speakers and have plug-ins for all the various sources of music and video OR are you trying to tell me that the OPPO 105 does all that and that I will NOT need a receiver in addition to the power amps?? And if I still need a receiver for the ceiling speakers, can I buy a low end model since the Emotiva would be supplying most of the amp power?? Somebody set me straight on the Receiver issue and offer a recommendation. I am NOT trying to save money, just do not want to buy a high end receiver with lots of power that the Emotiva already supplies. HELP! 

I am close to finishing up these purchases though it might sound like I still have lots of questions to go. To the contrary, we are close to the finish line ... THANKS to your input over these past couple of months! Again, I DO appreciate your responses! Ken


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## jbrown15 (Dec 7, 2011)

kenfletcher said:


> Some follow up to your inspiring comments about Oppo, ceiling speakers and amps.
> 
> 1. I simply do not have the ability to read all the specs and really sense the differences between the Klipsch's, the Golden Ear models, the Boston, etc. ceiling speakers. I am willing to spend $250-$300 each, but I really might have to somehow draw straws since I have no way of hearing them. My only follow up question would be the same one I asked Jeff ... I like natural sounding reproduction ... not a lot of added bass, etc. I almost always run flat if flat sounds natural and it does with Jeff's speakers ... so of the 6-8 ceiling speakers mentioned, is one a model of natural sounding reproduction. The biggest difference I saw among them was the "tweeter" vs the "compression driver" for highs. Still got lots of questions on ceiling speakers. They will never be used at high volume ... but for dining and sitting on patio only!
> 
> ...


Honestly I don't think you could ever really have overkill with JTR speakers. They can handle way more power then your ears can. I use a Sherbourn PA 7-350 amp to power my three 228HT's, there's a few used but new in the box ones floating around in some classifieds section. It's a awesome amp that is no longer offered since Emotiva actually bought Sherbourn, and it comes with a 10 year transferable warranty! It's a 7 channel 350watt per channel. If you shoot me a pm I can tell you where to look, and it's cheaper then the XPR-5. Truth be told I believe Emotiva will offer this exact amp but will call it the XPR-7. Well at least that's the rumor I heard on the Emotiva forums.


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## knecht (Dec 27, 2013)

kenfletcher said:


> Some follow up to your inspiring comments about Oppo, ceiling speakers and amps.
> 
> 1. I simply do not have the ability to read all the specs and really sense the differences between the Klipsch's, the Golden Ear models, the Boston, etc. ceiling speakers. I am willing to spend $250-$300 each, but I really might have to somehow draw straws since I have no way of hearing them. My only follow up question would be the same one I asked Jeff ... I like natural sounding reproduction ... not a lot of added bass, etc. I almost always run flat if flat sounds natural and it does with Jeff's speakers ... so of the 6-8 ceiling speakers mentioned, is one a model of natural sounding reproduction. The biggest difference I saw among them was the "tweeter" vs the "compression driver" for highs. Still got lots of questions on ceiling speakers. They will never be used at high volume ... but for dining and sitting on patio only!
> 
> ...


I feel your pain... My wife and I are beginning construction on a new home in the spring. So I recently had to make some of the same decisions.

For the amp I ended up buying the XPR-5 over the XPA-5 to have the additional power. I'm moving back to a 5.1 system. I had 7.1 in my old house and never really noticed the benefit of it. I'm more of a music guy.

If your going with in-ceiling speakers I would take a serious look at Golden Ear HTR-7000's. They got rave reviews at CEDIA this year. Most people thought they were listening to floor standing speakers. I'm going with in-walls in the new house as I had a 7.1 in-ceiling system in my old house and wanted to move to in-walls. I went with James Loudspeaker. To me, they sound fantastic. The best in-wall I've ever heard. They have some great in-ceiling speakers as well. You will need a sub. I went with their 1200PT-1 power pipe so it could be hidden. If you want more of a full range in-wall you may want to look at Def Tech. I've not heard them, but they go pretty low for an in-wall.

For my patio, master bedroom, and bath I picked up an Emotiva UPA-700 with a UMC-200 as the Pre/Pro.

Good luck with your decisions.


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## makcer9 (Feb 6, 2012)

Speaker choices is limitless. There are big manufacturers from stores like the guy recommended which he is more likely a retailer or home theater installer. Then there are audiophile retailer which sale better speakers. And more than the audiophile retailers there are the very well advanced speaker builders that are more than likely the best choice. However, they can be pricey but you will not lose. What is your budget..


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## Hookedonc4 (May 19, 2012)

knecht said:


> I feel your pain... My wife and I are beginning construction on a new home in the spring. So I recently had to make some of the same decisions.
> 
> For the amp I ended up buying the XPR-5 over the XPA-5 to have the additional power. I'm moving back to a 5.1 system. I had 7.1 in my old house and never really noticed the benefit of it. I'm more of a music guy.
> 
> ...


These are some great suggestions but we also use James and they sound great.

My neighbors use Paradigm inwalls but they are not sealed like the James Loudspeakers.


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