# High End Audio Cables...



## NBPk402

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5565

What do you think after reading this?

Please post up why you feel the way you do.


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## Todd Anderson

Fairly bold piece. 

I've only invested in wires to the extent that I want a decent build quality that stays tightly connected and doesn't fall apart.


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## willis7469

Ron, you're naughty. But please post this once a day. 
"To audiophiles, the equivalent of making sausage"!!!!!!!! Wow that was hilarious! I'm going back to read the Nelson Pass article. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Also, I agree with Todd. Good quality construction, for effectiveness and longevity.


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## NBPk402

willis7469 said:


> Ron, you're naughty. But please post this once a day.
> "To audiophiles, the equivalent of making sausage"!!!!!!!! Wow that was hilarious! I'm going back to read the Nelson Pass article.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> Also, I agree with Todd. Good quality construction, for effectiveness and longevity.


>


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## NBPk402

Todd Anderson said:


> Fairly bold piece.
> 
> I've only invested in wires to the extent that I want a decent build quality that stays tightly connected and doesn't fall apart.


I agree, but I have also had wires that were so tight that they pulled off the outer shell on the AVR. The ones I had this experience with were Monster Cables. I have since eliminated all Monster Cables from my setup. 

I am a firm believer that the differences people hear are from the Ohm, impedance, and resistance of the cables interaction with the output impedance and input impedance of the equipment being tested. I discovered this years ago when i went from a tube preamp to a Classe Audio DR-6 preamp, and saw all the differences disappear (but not the sound). I looked at Classe Audio reasoning and it made perfect sense. If the output impedance is lower than the input impedance on the other end of the cable the cable makes zero audible difference. We even went, and inserted the tube preamp (Audible Illusions 3, previous versions I owned were 2b, 2c, 2d, 3), and all made big audible differences in cables. The differences were so big you could pick it out over 90% of the time, but not at all with the Classe Audio Solid State Amp.

What do you think?


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## rab-byte

I'm in this camp for sure!

Good read.


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## nova

I've never bought into the "Audiophile Wires/Cables". A good quality, well built wire/cable is fine for me.


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## tonyvdb

I've made cables when I need to and always found that the overpriced cables are just that "overpriced" I can make as good if not better cables than I can buy for a reasonable price.


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## NBPk402

tonyvdb said:


> I've made cables when I need to and always found that the overpriced cables are just that "overpriced" I can make as good if not better cables than I can buy for a reasonable price.


I agree...cables are not that hard to make, and will most likely be better quality than reasonable priced cables from your local store.


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## Tonto

I remember when I first got into HT. I went into a boutique store, bought my Yamaha RXV-795a (still using it today) & Klipsch speakers & the guy tries to sell me High End cables. Now I don't blame him...a guy's gotta eat. But, he doesn't quote me any objective or subjective data. He says cables should come to about 10% of what the equipment costs! I knew right then that the cable industry was snake oil!

If you think about it, why would some company make a great cable and a lesser cable. They would try to make the best product the can and market it. Patents are good for 10 years...then you can be copied...markets force competition, prices come down. So how do these boutique cable companies stay in business? By finding a way to re-invent the wheel and sell again!

Now I am not saying not to buy what ever it is that you want. There is always a lot of pride that we feel about our systems. Some cables look very nice and some are priced accordingly. We should always buy what we makes us happy. If it makes a difference to you, case settled.


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## NBPk402

Tonto said:


> I remember when I first got into HT. I went into a boutique store, bought my Yamaha RXV-795a (still using it today) & Klipsch speakers & the guy tries to sell me High End cables. Now I don't blame him...a guy's gotta eat. But, he doesn't quote me any objective or subjective data. He says cables should come to about 10% of what the equipment costs! I knew right then that the cable industry was snake oil!
> 
> If you think about it, why would some company make a great cable and a lesser cable. They would try to make the best product the can and market it. Patents are good for 10 years...then you can be copied...markets force competition, prices come down. So how do these boutique cable companies stay in business? By finding a way to re-invent the wheel and sell again!
> 
> Now I am not saying not to buy what ever it is that you want. There is always a lot of pride that we feel about our systems. Some cables look very nice and some are priced accordingly. We should always buy what we makes us happy. If it makes a difference to you, case settled.


I remember seeing the 10% rule years ago too. I always ignored it as I wasn't about to spend $2k for wires on my stereo setup, unless I could hear a significantly better difference than with good quality cables.


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## willis7469

Something I've always wondered, which was touched on a little in the article is, if magic cables are so great, why don't any OEM's endorse/advertise/manufacture, etc? I've asked this of many magic cable fans, and none will answer. (I already know the answer lol. Shhh)


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## rab-byte

willis7469 said:


> Something I've always wondered, which was touched on a little in the article is, if magic cables are so great, why don't any OEM's endorse/advertise/manufacture, etc? I've asked this of many magic cable fans, and none will answer. (I already know the answer lol. Shhh) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


More over if you open up any speaker you'll find plain old copper wire.


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## willis7469

rab-byte said:


> More over if you open up any speaker you'll find plain old copper wire.



Yep. That too. 


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## lovinthehd

Can't say any one of those options really is one I want to check off as a stand alone response, but even though I don't buy into such silly cables, I answered with the bank account difference as that's the one thing you can count on....the rest is usually about aesthetics and/or taking advantage of the easily fooled.


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## NBPk402

lovinthehd said:


> Can't say any one of those options really is one I want to check off as a stand alone response, but even though I don't buy into such silly cables, I answered with the bank account difference as that's the one thing you can count on....the rest is usually about aesthetics and/or taking advantage of the easily fooled.


Sorry, I thought I had made the poll to where you could write in another opinion, but I guess I didn't, and I don't see a way to do it now.


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## Audiofan1

Makes a difference in my setup but so do the " guess you call them "inexpensive cables" (only since price is the really driving factor for the debate a heart) As long as I get my desired end result then I'm as right as rain!

Signed 
An Audiophile (not a "Fool" I just pursue Hi fidelity music playback with passion)


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## Tonto

Exactly!!!:smile:


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## Savjac

Talk about negative choices :laugh2:

Frankly I can hear the difference even with sunglasses on at night...in the rain....during a snowstorm. Just 5 seconds into one of my favorite cd's of Yoko Ono and I can feel the goose flesh coming on while my bit toe shoots up in my boot. It is amazing I tell you and they are only $7500 per foot times two for the pair....with banana plugs.

Y'all are missin out ya know !!


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## Philm63

If it's well constructed, it makes no difference! I am firmly in the "Don't want no Snake Oil" camp. 

Decided to make my own speaker cables out of some Belden 14/2, some Techflex to dress 'em up, a little heat shrink and some pretty gold-plated connectors. Coiled 'em up on my desk at work when I was done making them, and someone walked in, and just the look on their face told me all I needed to know - "Those cables look very expensive!" I think my total investment for 3 speakers cables (Front LR and Center) was right around $40 not counting the heat gun and soldering iron with that fancy "knife" tip for cutting the Techflex - long-term investment, me thinks.

I seriously cannot imagine my cables would "sound" much different than ones costing hundreds of dollars a foot - as an electrical engineer, that just doesn't make sense to me.

Now, if I can just find some of those neat little glass insulators to hold these things up off the floor...


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## willis7469

Philm63 said:


> Now, if I can just find some of those neat little glass insulators to hold these things up off the floor...


Now we talkin! I'll send you some, if you build me some cables. 



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## NBPk402

Savjac said:


> Talk about negative choices :laugh2:
> 
> Frankly I can hear the difference even with sunglasses on at night...in the rain....during a snowstorm. Just 5 seconds into one of my favorite cd's of Yoko Ono and I can feel the goose flesh coming on while my bit toe shoots up in my boot. It is amazing I tell you and they are only $7500 per foot times two for the pair....with banana plugs.
> 
> Y'all are missin out ya know !!


I thought 2 were positive and 2 were negative...:grin2:


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## Savjac

Here is some custom made cable risers. They come in several colors and heights and blend well with your decor.
Order now and I can throw in an extra riser for a most reasonable cost.


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## willis7469

Looks great Jack. I love the mix n match idea!


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## Talley

> PRESENT METHODS and techniques
> for the measurement of sound permit
> the analysis of musical tone as
> acoustical phenomena. It is equally
> true that no one is certain at present
> that those aspects of the sound wave
> which are customarily measured are
> the aspects of primary importance in
> the auditory perception of musical
> tone. It is necessary that a correlation
> be made between these observations
> and the judgment of the ear. This
> can be accomplished by the cooperation
> of the scientist and the musician


Cables can and do make a difference and is without a doubt measurable. Don't believe me? Go take some rebar tie wire wrap them with electrical tape and use them as a cable vs using copper.... or use aluminum wire for speaker cable.

Yes those make a difference.

Generally you get a good well constructed cable and you start at zero and it's the designed cables that take away from sound. 

low resistance and low capacitance are you to biggest factors in cables. You measure a reduction in both of those and chances are that cable will sound better.


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## NBPk402

Talley said:


> Cables can and do make a difference and is without a doubt measurable. Don't believe me? Go take some rebar tie wire wrap them with electrical tape and use them as a cable vs using copper.... or use aluminum wire for speaker cable.
> 
> Yes those make a difference.
> 
> Generally you get a good well constructed cable and you start at zero and it's the designed cables that take away from sound.
> 
> low resistance and low capacitance are you to biggest factors in cables. You measure a reduction in both of those and chances are that cable will sound better.


I agree, and there is zero reason to pay big bucks for it...just a good well constructed cable is all that is needed. Now if you have a low output impedance from your preamp, and a high input impedance for the amp all that matters is well constructed.


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## willis7469

Talley said:


> You measure a reduction in both of those and chances are that cable will sound better.


I presume you mean they'll make your speakers sound better?(cause cables don't make sound :nerd: lol) But in what way? And how do they change the characteristics of the "junk" wire that's in your speakers?



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## NBPk402

I think that the reason wires can sound different is how the impedance, inductance, and resistance affect the connection. So if you lowered 2 of them it could sound different because the amplifier sees it as a different load... just putting it out there as I am not an expert in wires.


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## Talley

ellisr63 said:


> I think that the reason wires can sound different is how the impedance, inductance, and resistance affect the connection. So if you lowered 2 of them it could sound different because the amplifier sees it as a different load... just putting it out there as I am not an expert in wires.


95% POSITIVE this is it.

I just installed some new reality cable XLR that I got for next to nothing and so I compared them with some amazon cheapy $35 for 6 cables and here was my results:

gls audio cap: .280 nF
reality cable: .240 nF

gls audio resistance: .17 ohms
reality cable resistance: .12 ohms

So the cheapy amazon cables had higher resistance and higher capacitance and by swapping to the reality cables that measure lower values in both categories my bass is slightly tighter but the most important audible change was in the 1khz+ mostly where the cymbals sound... made a striking improvement and I take that audible difference as fact as I measured and heard the change.

Which means... a good quality cable = built good and measured better. I know it's not much but the resistance did change a bit.

I really want to try the new belden brilliance bonded single pair cable and eliminate the shield. That cable has super low capacitance and would be curious to see if there was any differences.

Sorry... But I measure before I try. I want good measuring cables.


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## Philm63

Talley said:


> ...gls audio cap: .280 nF
> reality cable: .240 nF
> 
> gls audio resistance: .17 ohms
> reality cable resistance: .12 ohms
> 
> Sorry... But I measure before I try. I want good measuring cables.


Talley - I gotta know; how do you make these measurements? I mean physically; how do you set up your test to get these readings? The capacitance measurement is pretty straight forward. I'm looking at the resistance measurements.

I test electrical products for a living, and have access to some pretty sensitive (and calibrated) equipment - looks like whatever you are using for resistance measurements is pretty sensitive, like a 4-wire meter, to get any sense of accuracy down that close to short-circuit resistance. I'd like to do these tests on my own cables - please let me know your test methods so I can give it a try for myself.


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## Savjac

Talley said:


> 95% POSITIVE this is it.
> 
> I just installed some new reality cable XLR that I got for next to nothing and so I compared them with some amazon cheapy $35 for 6 cables and here was my results:
> 
> gls audio cap: .280 nF
> reality cable: .240 nF
> 
> gls audio resistance: .17 ohms
> reality cable resistance: .12 ohms
> 
> So the cheapy amazon cables had higher resistance and higher capacitance and by swapping to the reality cables that measure lower values in both categories my bass is slightly tighter but the most important audible change was in the 1khz+ mostly where the cymbals sound... made a striking improvement and I take that audible difference as fact as I measured and heard the change.
> Which means... a good quality cable = built good and measured better. I know it's not much but the resistance did change a bit.
> 
> I really want to try the new belden brilliance bonded single pair cable and eliminate the shield. That cable has super low capacitance and would be curious to see if there was any differences.
> 
> Sorry... But I measure before I try. I want good measuring cables.


I would suggest that in the end, it has to be our ears that make the final judgement in these matters, possibly coupled with measurements. Personally I would have no clue as to what measurements mean and must rely totally on my ears. Here is the measurements that were provided with my interconnects - and as mentioned they mean nothing to me except that they sound good....again, in my system (1 meter cables)

Resistance = 0.041 Ohms/foot run
Inductance = 0.0003mH/foot run
Capacitance = 0.0095nF/foot run

I also use some Blue Jeans interconnect cables as well and here are those measurements.

Capacitance, conductor to shield: 12.2 pF/ft
Resistance, center conductor: 34 ohms/1000 feet
Resistance, shield: 1.7 ohms/1000 feet

I have my speaker cable measurements as well - ( 10 feet pair )

Resistance = 0.0016 Ohms/foot run
Inductance = 0.00026mH/foot run
Capacitance = 0.044nF/foot run

I can generalize and say that speaker cables made of zillions of strands of teeny tiny wires (Monster Cable) will, imo, tend to sound a bit brighter in my system while cables made of fewer more sturdy individual wires (Blue Jeans) tends to sound better to me. I imagine the way the wire is wound might have a different sound or measurement, I am just not willing to go into that much of a cost for my wire. I think mine were about $350 and they sound quite good to me. BTW, I only know about the measurements of my cabling because it came on the package. 

So what am I noodling on about....LISTEN, that is the whole point of having an audio system.


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## 3dbinCanada

ellisr63 said:


> http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5565
> 
> What do you think after reading this?


Finally, I see some sanity, a light at the end of a tunnel that is called audio snake oil and myths. Cables and interconnects have been the biggest lie. Cable and interconnect manufacturers prey on the gullible audio hobbiest and I think that's disgusting and is borderline fraud. I would also like to add that human hearing is influenced my a myriad of other stimuli including mood and sight to name a few. Subjective realities are just that and in no way proves cables make an audible difference. The only way to test this is through blind listening tests which will eliminate subjective bias.


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## FargateOne

ellisr63 said:


> I agree, but I have also had wires that were so tight that they pulled off the outer shell on the AVR. The ones I had this experience with were Monster Cables. I have since eliminated all Monster Cables from my setup.
> (...)


Exactly the same experience: Monster cable no more. It took 2 weeks to get my new receiver back to repair the same problem !!


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## JBrax

I almost hate to admit it but I have spent way more on cables than I should have. When I purchased my XPA-3 I shelled out some coin on some Audioquest cables. Do I think they improved the sound? Nope. Do I think they look cool? Yep.


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## Talley

Savjac said:


> I would suggest that in the end, it has to be our ears that make the final judgement in these matters, possibly coupled with measurements. Personally I would have no clue as to what measurements mean and must rely totally on my ears. Here is the measurements that were provided with my interconnects - and as mentioned they mean nothing to me except that they sound good....again, in my system (1 meter cables)
> 
> Resistance = 0.041 Ohms/foot run
> Inductance = 0.0003mH/foot run
> Capacitance = 0.0095nF/foot run
> 
> I also use some Blue Jeans interconnect cables as well and here are those measurements.
> 
> Capacitance, conductor to shield: 12.2 pF/ft
> Resistance, center conductor: 34 ohms/1000 feet
> Resistance, shield: 1.7 ohms/1000 feet
> 
> I have my speaker cable measurements as well - ( 10 feet pair )
> 
> Resistance = 0.0016 Ohms/foot run
> Inductance = 0.00026mH/foot run
> Capacitance = 0.044nF/foot run
> 
> I can generalize and say that speaker cables made of zillions of strands of teeny tiny wires (Monster Cable) will, imo, tend to sound a bit brighter in my system while cables made of fewer more sturdy individual wires (Blue Jeans) tends to sound better to me. I imagine the way the wire is wound might have a different sound or measurement, I am just not willing to go into that much of a cost for my wire. I think mine were about $350 and they sound quite good to me. BTW, I only know about the measurements of my cabling because it came on the package.
> 
> So what am I noodling on about....LISTEN, that is the whole point of having an audio system.


Those specs mean nothing for just the bare cable... you need to include the connectors and the whole cable after assembly.


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## Talley

Philm63 said:


> Talley - I gotta know; how do you make these measurements? I mean physically; how do you set up your test to get these readings? The capacitance measurement is pretty straight forward. I'm looking at the resistance measurements.
> 
> I test electrical products for a living, and have access to some pretty sensitive (and calibrated) equipment - looks like whatever you are using for resistance measurements is pretty sensitive, like a 4-wire meter, to get any sense of accuracy down that close to short-circuit resistance. I'd like to do these tests on my own cables - please let me know your test methods so I can give it a try for myself.


Fluke 289 meter with certification of calibration within the past two months.

For resistance measure using ohms and pick same pin on both ends and measure the same wire within the cable at each end. For capacitance measure on one end and pick two different pins (1-2, 2-3 or 1-3) you'll find they all read the same.

smaller cables have less capacitance than bigger cables unless the bigger cables are wound tightly but the smaller cables have higher resistance. The bigger question is what is more important? I was lucky I got both reduced and the sound has improved.


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## robbo266317

Talley said:


> smaller cables have less capacitance than bigger cables unless the bigger cables are wound tightly but the smaller cables have higher resistance. The bigger question is what is more important? I was lucky I got both reduced and the sound has improved.


The capacitance should have no effect as its value is too small to influence the audio signal and with current solid state amplifiers it is well below the tolerable range.
The resistance can affect the Q of the system (ie damping) if it is significant, but again the values you quote are fairly small.

Have you measured the dc resistance of the inductors in your crossover? You may be surprised.


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## willis7469

This is on blue jeans cables site:
Speaker cable is a bit different from a lot of the interconnect cables we handle, in several respects. Because speakers are driven at low impedance (typically 4 or 8 ohms) and high current, speaker cables are, for all practical purposes, immune from interference from EMI or RFI, so shielding isn't required. The low impedance of the circuit, meanwhile, makes capacitance, which can be an issue in high-impedance line or microphone-level connections practically irrelevant. The biggest issue in speaker cables, from the point of view of sound quality, is simply conductivity; the lower the resistance of the cable, the lower the contribution of the speaker cable's resistance to the damping factor, and the flatter the frequency response will be. While one can spend thousands of dollars on exotic speaker cable, in the end analysis, it's the sheer conductivity of the cable, and (barring a really odd design, which may introduce various undesirable effects) little else that matters. The answer to keeping conductivity high is simple: the larger the wire, the lower the resistance, and the higher the conductivity. We offer a few alternatives in large-gauge speaker cable, either raw or terminated, as follows:


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## Lumen

Talley said:


> Those specs mean nothing for just the bare cable... you need to include the connectors and the whole cable after assembly.


Did you mean to say that the wire specs aren't the end-all, be-all of the final assembly? Otherwise, I'd have to disagree; the bare cable specs can swing from hi-R/hi-C to the low end of the spectrum. While you can find connectors with higher conductivity than others, their specs shouldn't swamp the wire in a quality cable. I doubt any DIY's would intentionally assemble a corroded, electrically unsound connector on an otherwise decent cable.



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## 3dbinCanada

willis7469 said:


> This is on blue jeans cables site:
> Speaker cable is a bit different from a lot of the interconnect cables we handle, in several respects. Because speakers are driven at low impedance (typically 4 or 8 ohms) and high current, speaker cables are, for all practical purposes, immune from interference from EMI or RFI, so shielding isn't required. The low impedance of the circuit, meanwhile, makes capacitance, which can be an issue in high-impedance line or microphone-level connections practically irrelevant. The biggest issue in speaker cables, from the point of view of sound quality, is simply conductivity; the lower the resistance of the cable, the lower the contribution of the speaker cable's resistance to the damping factor, and the flatter the frequency response will be. While one can spend thousands of dollars on exotic speaker cable, in the end analysis, it's the sheer conductivity of the cable, and (barring a really odd design, which may introduce various undesirable effects) little else that matters. The answer to keeping conductivity high is simple: the larger the wire, the lower the resistance, and the higher the conductivity. We offer a few alternatives in large-gauge speaker cable, either raw or terminated, as follows:
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree with this. They should mention though that cable resistance comes into play as cable lengths increase. If cable lengths are short, less than 5 feet say, then there will be no signal degradation using 18 gauge or 12 gauge wire.


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## tonyvdb

3dbinCanada said:


> I agree with this. They should mention though that cable resistance comes into play as cable lengths increase. If cable lengths are short, less than 5 feet say, then there will be no signal degradation using 18 gauge or 12 gauge wire.


This is possibly the clearest statement yet, Anything under 12ft would never show any sort of delay or resistance that would be measurable and certainly not audible. The connectors would be the least of my concerns if they are attached correctly to the cable.

There is so much snake oil oozing from this thread lately I could sell it and make some good money.


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## chashint

If you consider the amplifier output impedance/resistance is milliohms and a speaker's input impedance /resistance is 2 ohms ( worst case) it is easy to see the speaker dominates the circuit. Changing 0.05 ohms between two speaker wires is irrelevant.
A difference of 1nf (much less 0.01nf) compared to the capacitance in even the cheapest speaker crossover network is also irrelevant.
It never does any good to try to explain orders of magnitude in electrical circuits but the facts are still the facts.


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## NBPk402

Now i will throw this out there... I am assuming that the differences can be seen on eq, and if this is so... What happens when you run YPAO, Audyssey, or Dirac? Do you rerun your software every time you change your wires?


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## willis7469

Agree with all the above. As stated in Rons article, the parameters of cable are known, and engineered down to molecular levels. This is in stark contrast to human beings which are terribly inconsistent, in every way. Every part of our bodies is effected by other parts. Have too much coffee, and you'll not likely have the patience or be in the mood to notice the subtleties of a great recording. Or the opposite, if you're a little too relaxed, you might be open to every single note. Expectation bias can't be overstated enough, and if we need to eliminate a variable it has to be the human. 


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## willis7469

ellisr63 said:


> Now i will throw this out there... I am assuming that the differences can be seen on eq, and if this is so... What happens when you run YPAO, Audyssey, or Dirac? Do you rerun your software every time you change your wires?



No. Because audyssey might EQ out any difference!


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## tonyvdb

Honestly, If these "changes" are noticeable then they would show up in REW. Prove it by posing a before and after graph and then maybe I will believe it otherwise its just in your head. 
And keep in mind that moving the mic even an inch will make a difference in REW so keep everything the same except changing the interconnects.


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## FargateOne

tonyvdb said:


> Honestly, If these "changes" are noticeable then they would show up in REW. Prove it by posing a before and after graph and then maybe I will believe it otherwise its just in your head.
> And keep in mind that moving the mic even an inch will make a difference in REW so keep everything the same except changing the interconnects.


see my post 158 here:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ssories-tweaks/142610-i-cable-atheist-16.html
I do not pretend that it proves anything but I tried . Like I said, many more professionnal people than me can explain the results otherwise than cable .


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## robbo266317

FargateOne said:


> see my post 158 here:
> http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ssories-tweaks/142610-i-cable-atheist-16.html
> I do not pretend that it proves anything but I tried . Like I said, many more professionnal people than me can explain the results otherwise than cable .


Did you change back to the original and remeasure for a third time to prove that you had a repeatable effect? (If it is repeatable then It should have been the same as measurement one. If not then you need to investigate why)


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## Talley

has anyone doe the math on resistance vs. the frequency of the signal being sent? Most of what I heard was in the higher end frequencies in the cymbals range. Resistance does change with frequency and many might forget the conventional math for resistance is based on 60hz. do it again factoring skin affect at say 4-6khz and this small change could very well be a substantial change

Remember your dealing with output signals from the xlr to the amp so a minor change gets amplified 22x+ after the amp as well.


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## FargateOne

robbo266317 said:


> Did you change back to the original and remeasure for a third time to prove that you had a repeatable effect? (If it is repeatable then It should have been the same as measurement one. If not then you need to investigate why)


no I did not but I will do a 3 way measurements in the following weeks and give my results


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## witchdoctor

This article is nothing but red meat for the crowd that can't detect a difference between cables. I think it is nothing more than flame bait. I was actually surprised you didn't have any really positive answers in your "poll" either. Not worth a response IMO.

If you are truly interested in the subject you should also post an article with an opposing point of view.


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## 3dbinCanada

Talley said:


> has anyone doe the math on resistance vs. the frequency of the signal being sent? Most of what I heard was in the higher end frequencies in the cymbals range. Resistance does change with frequency and many might forget the conventional math for resistance is based on 60hz. do it again factoring skin affect at say 4-6khz and this small change could very well be a substantial change
> 
> Remember your dealing with output signals from the xlr to the amp so a minor change gets amplified 22x+ after the amp as well.


Resistance independent of frequency, is a constant and a component of impedance. Reactance is frequency dependent, its magnitude changing with frequency, and the other component of impedance. Please keep in mind people that the distributed values of capacitance, inductance and resistance is a factor of 1000 to 10000 times lower than what the amplifier sees from the speaker. It has very little effect in signal conduction, especially at the very VERY low audio frequencies (20Khz is considered bass) compared to how high the frequencies can go before cable's distributed resistance, reactance and capacitance take affect.


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## NBPk402

witchdoctor said:


> This article is nothing but red meat for the crowd that can't detect a difference between cables. I think it is nothing more than flame bait. I was actually surprised you didn't have any really positive answers in your "poll" either. Not worth a response IMO.
> 
> If you are truly interested in the subject you should also post an article with an opposing point of view.


This isn't a positive?
The difference is measurable if heard
It makes a difference, but is not measurable

Also, I selected to allow write ins but it didn't take, and now it can't be changed as far as I know.


----------



## chashint

3dbinCanada said:


> Resistance independent of frequency, is a constant and a component of impedance. Reactance is frequency dependent, its magnitude changing with frequency, and the other component of impedance. Please keep in mind people that the distributed values of capacitance, inductance and resistance is a factor of 1000 to 10000 times lower than what the amplifier sees from the speaker. It has very little effect in signal conduction, especially at the very VERY low audio frequencies (20Khz is considered bass) compared to how high the frequencies can go before cable's distributed resistance, reactance and capacitance take affect.


+1


----------



## NBPk402

I was able to add one more poll... if you want another one let me know what you want. I no longer can offer the write in option as it isn't available anymore. I believe 1 more than i have up now is the max.


----------



## Savjac

Talley said:


> Those specs mean nothing for just the bare cable... you need to include the connectors and the whole cable after assembly.


What I meant to show is that the specs mean nothing to me, I don't know the specs from beans. I tend to believe that any well branded cable these days will have been properly manufactured. Without giving the cables, be they interconnects or speaker cables, imo the only test is listening. If lamp cord sounds great in a given system then nothing more needs to be done but plug it in and smile. I do disagree with the thought that 18 gauge cable is adequate in a substantive rig as I think it is not made to carry the electrical properties involved in our hobby. Multiple 18 gauge cable wound about each other might just work fine. 

What I think happens is that the cable companies use marketing hype and far out terminology to make the uninitiated think they might be getting something special, which may or may not be true. Its easy for me to say any very expensive cables are not worth the money because in my world, I dont have the money. I have not heard the multi thousand dollar stuff out there on the market so I cannot have an opinion. Oops, did I say I have not heard it.....yes I did. Never the less, if we read every banner on cable web sites, including Blue Jeans, and I do like me some Blue Jeans, we would get the impression that they are all the best. This is especially true when the universal words are used....Valhalla, Grand Reference, Absolute Dream etc are used in the naming process. 

I realize I am in the minority here in that measurements don't really matter unless there is a gross problem inherent in the cable that I can hear. If I cannot hear the problem than...well there is no problem. I do think that most of the advertisements are indeed hype and are used to sell more cable. I do believe that using a good quality solidly built cable with properly secured terminations would be good in almost any system. I do believe that if one wants to experiment, they can find that some cables are gooder than others in any given system. For me, the zillion tiny strand cables such as the original monster tend to allow my system to sound a bit bright while Blue Jeans tend to impart a more natural sound to me. Your mileage may vary.

Sorry for being annoying but this is my strong belief. Jack has left the building :wave:


----------



## Savjac

ellisr63 said:


> I was able to add one more poll... if you want another one let me know what you want. I no longer can offer the write in option as it isn't available anymore. I believe 1 more than i have up now is the max.


I am such a fussy bunny, but, I believe that if the last option lost the word "Easily" I could go for that one. The differences can be heard, but it seems obvious by our posts that differences are not easily heard if heard at all. :innocent:


----------



## witchdoctor

ellisr63 said:


> This isn't a positive?
> The difference is measurable if heard
> It makes a difference, but is not measurable
> 
> Also, I selected to allow write ins but it didn't take, and now it can't be changed as far as I know.


No that is not a positive. Here is an example

Yes, the difference is clearly audible and an improvement.
Yes, the difference is measurable and audible.
Yes, high end cables blow away the stock cables that come with most equipment.

So are you going to post an opposing point of view as well? You want to give all sides to the argument right?

https://passlabs.com/articles/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html


----------



## NBPk402

Savjac said:


> I am such a fussy bunny, but, I believe that if the last option lost the word "Easily" I could go for that one. The differences can be heard, but it seems obvious by our posts that differences are not easily heard if heard at all. :innocent:


Easily has been removed.


----------



## NBPk402

witchdoctor said:


> No that is not a positive. Here is an example
> 
> Yes, the difference is clearly audible and an improvement.
> Yes, the difference is measurable and audible.
> Yes, high end cables blow away the stock cables that come with most equipment.
> 
> So are you going to post an opposing point of view as well? You want to give all sides to the argument right?
> 
> https://passlabs.com/articles/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil
> 
> http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html


I added #1, and #3 of your suggestions... I am not adding #2 as it is virtually identical to what I already had posted "The difference is measurable if heard"

Just to be clear... Just because something is clearly audible doesn't mean it is an improvement. So I also added The difference is clearly audible, but not an improvement.


----------



## FargateOne

Savjac said:


> What I meant to show is that the specs mean nothing to me, I don't know the specs from beans. I tend to believe that any well branded cable these days will have been properly manufactured. Without giving the cables, be they interconnects or speaker cables, imo the only test is listening. If lamp cord sounds great in a given system then nothing more needs to be done but plug it in and smile. I do disagree with the thought that 18 gauge cable is adequate in a substantive rig as I think it is not made to carry the electrical properties involved in our hobby. Multiple 18 gauge cable wound about each other might just work fine.
> 
> What I think happens is that the cable companies use marketing hype and far out terminology to make the uninitiated think they might be getting something special, which may or may not be true. Its easy for me to say any very expensive cables are not worth the money because in my world, I dont have the money. I have not heard the multi thousand dollar stuff out there on the market so I cannot have an opinion. Oops, did I say I have not heard it.....yes I did. Never the less, if we read every banner on cable web sites, including Blue Jeans, and I do like me some Blue Jeans, we would get the impression that they are all the best. This is especially true when the universal words are used....Valhalla, Grand Reference, Absolute Dream etc are used in the naming process.
> 
> I realize I am in the minority here in that measurements don't really matter unless there is a gross problem inherent in the cable that I can hear. If I cannot hear the problem than...well there is no problem. I do think that most of the advertisements are indeed hype and are used to sell more cable. I do believe that using a good quality solidly built cable with properly secured terminations would be good in almost any system. I do believe that if one wants to experiment, they can find that some cables are gooder than others in any given system. For me, the zillion tiny strand cables such as the original monster tend to allow my system to sound a bit bright while Blue Jeans tend to impart a more natural sound to me. Your mileage may vary.
> 
> Sorry for being annoying but this is my strong belief. Jack has left the building :wave:


Agree +


----------



## witchdoctor

ellisr63 said:


> I added #1, and #2 of your suggestions... I am not adding #2 as it is virtually identical to what I already had posted "The difference is measurable if heard"
> 
> Just to be clear... Just because something is clearly audible doesn't mean it is an improvement. So I also added The difference is clearly audible, but not an improvement.


Much better! If I were to choose just one cable that I could replace in an entire system it would be the coax Spdif digital cable running from the source to the DAC/preamp. I know the thought is 0 and 1 can't tell the difference but a great digital cable can reduce jitter in a way that just takes that hard digital glare out of digital and make it seem MUCH more analog.


----------



## 3dbinCanada

[img][/img]


Savjac said:


> What I meant to show is that the specs mean nothing to me, I don't know the specs from beans. I tend to believe that any well branded cable these days will have been properly manufactured. Without giving the cables, be they interconnects or speaker cables, imo the only test is listening. If lamp cord sounds great in a given system then nothing more needs to be done but plug it in and smile. I do disagree with the thought that 18 gauge cable is adequate in a substantive rig as I think it is not made to carry the electrical properties involved in our hobby. Multiple 18 gauge cable wound about each other might just work fine.


If cable runs are short enough you would not be able to detect the difference between 18 gauge or lower (cables becoming thicker) gauge cables. Ever look inside a speaker and the wiring between crossovers and drivers? Just offering food for thought.


----------



## witchdoctor

> _If cable runs are short enough you would not be able to detect the difference between 18 gauge or lower (cables becoming thicker) gauge cables. Ever look inside a speaker and the wiring between crossovers and drivers? Just offering food for thought._




That is the same conclusion Nelson Pass came to in the white paper I posted, the shorter the speaker cable the less difference the speaker cable makes, but it still makes a difference.


----------



## 3dbinCanada

witchdoctor said:


> [/
> That is the same conclusion Nelson Pass came to in the white paper I posted, the shorter the speaker cable the less difference the speaker cable makes, but it still makes a difference.


Does his white paper outline controlled listening tests and methodology or is this merely a subjective conclusion reached through his hearing only? The only white papers I trust comes from Dr Floyd Toole.


----------



## witchdoctor

3dbinCanada said:


> Does his white paper outline controlled listening tests and methodology or is this merely a subjective conclusion reached through his hearing only? The only white papers I trust comes from Dr Floyd Toole.


I think you should read it and decide for yourself, if you disagree then state your opinion so we can examine it!
BTW It is in post #58.


----------



## willis7469

Here's a nice article by a design engineer at McIntosh. 
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3dbinCanada

​


witchdoctor said:


> I think you should read it and decide for yourself, if you disagree then state your opinion so we can examine it!
> BTW It is in post #58.


I glanced through the article quickly and the analysis he used is basic transmission line theory. It doesn't apply in the audio spectrum as the wave lengths are much too long to be affected by the transmission line model (figure 1.). I also saw no definitive listening tests in the article nor does he indicate that the differences if any were audible. Nothing in his conclusion states an audible difference.


----------



## Philm63

Gordon Gow did a listening test within the article posted by willis7469. Good reading, me thinks.


----------



## witchdoctor

3dbinCanada said:


> ​
> I glanced through the article quickly and the analysis he used is basic transmission line theory. It doesn't apply in the audio spectrum as the wave lengths are much too long to experience affected by the transmission line model (figure 1.). I also saw no definitive listening tests in the article nor does he indicate that the differences if any were audible. Nothing in his conclusion states an audible difference.


I don't think you were able to understand the article, better give it a thorough read.


----------



## Savjac

Maybe if we agree that the speakers, like everything else in the audio chain should be taken as it was received without worrying about what is inside. It is what it is and we need to provide it the best possible signal, in terms of both our hearing acumen as well as our audio tastes. I believe that using a proper wire would be quite important here as for the most part the audio signal does not normally jump from the amplifier to the speaker on its own, it needs direction and control.

I think that using an 18 gauge speaker wire would be a bit like using a 3mm rubber hose to provide fuel to a top fuel drag motor. It most probably wont work.


----------



## willis7469

Philm63 said:


> Gordon Gow did a listening test within the article posted by willis7469. Good reading, me thinks.



I liked this read also. I thought it was poignant because it was scientific, and anecdotal, and written by what I would call a credible author. Who doesn't love McIntosh? I also read the Nelson Pass article. Great amp designer. My take away from him was similar, but he said in a more ambiguous way, that you can measure a difference (an anomaly perhaps as roger Russell states), but that doesn't mean the difference will result for the better. I didn't find the article about power cables useful since it never translated any of the authors scientific claims into why I should expect to hear what I should be hearing. For example, putting wider tires on your car will provide more traction "due to the wider contact patch" etc. I felt like he was only dispelling myths by simply saying they weren't true and that his science works. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3dbinCanada

witchdoctor said:


> No that is not a positive. Here is an example
> 
> Yes, the difference is clearly audible and an improvement.
> Yes, the difference is measurable and audible.
> Yes, high end cables blow away the stock cables that come with most equipment.
> 
> So are you going to post an opposing point of view as well? You want to give all sides to the argument right?
> 
> https://passlabs.com/articles/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil
> 
> http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html


I read the last link provided and I would not use the last link provided as any irrefutable proof as there are more wholes in his argument then there are electrons flowing in a conductor. This is nothing more than an advertising sales glossy at best.


----------



## willis7469

Jack, I liked that you included a reference to top fuel. I've been smelling nitro since I was about 6. Maybe we need a thread about that!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## willis7469

3dbinCanada said:


> I read the last link provided and I would not use the last link provided as any irrefutable proof as there are more wholes in his argument then there are electrons flowing in a conductor. This is nothing more than an advertising sales glossy at best.



I felt the same. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3dbinCanada

witchdoctor said:


> No that is not a positive. Here is an example
> 
> Yes, the difference is clearly audible and an improvement.
> Yes, the difference is measurable and audible.
> Yes, high end cables blow away the stock cables that come with most equipment.
> 
> So are you going to post an opposing point of view as well? You want to give all sides to the argument right?
> 
> https://passlabs.com/articles/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil
> 
> http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html


I read the last link provided and I would not use the last link provided as any irrefutable proof as there are more wholes in his argument then there are electrons flowing in a conductor. This is nothing more than an advertising sales glossy at best.


Please delete any repeating posts of this. I had a browser hick up. My bad.


----------



## 3dbinCanada

Savjac said:


> I think that using an 18 gauge speaker wire would be a bit like using a 3mm rubber hose to provide fuel to a top fuel drag motor. It most probably wont work.


It will work if the run is short enough. I didn't say it was attractive nor am I proponent of using 18 gauge wire. The only exception I can think of is if the system is high powered enough that it will exceed the current carrying capacity of the wire. I use 14 and 16 gauge depending on the run length.


----------



## 3dbinCanada

willis7469 said:


> I liked this read also. I thought it was poignant because it was scientific, and anecdotal, and written by what I would call a credible author. Who doesn't love McIntosh? I also read the Nelson Pass article. Great amp designer. My take away from him was similar, but he said in a more ambiguous way, that you can measure a difference (an anomaly perhaps as roger Russell states), but that doesn't mean the difference will result for the better. I didn't find the article about power cables useful since it never translated any of the authors scientific claims into why I should expect to hear what I should be hearing. For example, putting wider tires on your car will provide more traction "due to the wider contact patch" etc. I felt like he was only dispelling myths by simply saying they weren't true and that his science works.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The transmission line model used by Nelson Pass I have studied at university. I remember hearing in a lecture that the wave lengths of a signal had to be very small for the distributed impedance of the cable to have an adverse affect. Audio signal wave lengths are very long compared to the 100 KHz and up. Don't forget that the relative short cable run lengths for a typical stereo /home theatre setup compared that to hydro distribution also mitigates any affects of the cable.


----------



## witchdoctor

Nothing about any of this is irrefutable. The articles provide simply another perspective for your consideration. At the end of the day my findings in my own system support the views of both authors, YMMV.

_ "If, like many audiophiles, you have spent a small (or large) fortune on your hi-fi system, *money spent for high quality cables and connectors is a reasonable investment.*"- Nelson Pass_


----------



## chashint

witchdoctor said:


> I don't think you were able to understand the article, better give it a thorough read.


REALLY ?
Please describe in detail exactly what part was not understood.


----------



## 3dbinCanada

willis7469 said:


> Here's a nice article by a design engineer at McIntosh.
> http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm happy to see that the article points out that the transmission line model cannot be applied in the audio frequency range, something I have repeated many times in this thread.


----------



## Philm63

3dbinCanada said:


> I'm happy to see that the article points out that the transmission line model cannot be applied in the audio frequency range, something I have repeated many times in this thread.


Agreed - that article points out a lot of interesting things I didn't know were there in the evolution of what we now call "Speaker Cables". Being fairly new to all this, I thought Monster was the only way to go.


----------



## 3dbinCanada

Philm63 said:


> Agreed - that article points out a lot of interesting things I didn't know were there in the evolution of what we now call "Speaker Cables". Being fairly new to all this, I thought Monster was the only way to go.


Lamp chord is the way to go provided the gauge is thick enough for the run if aesthetics don't come into play.:smile:


----------



## willis7469

witchdoctor said:


> Nothing about any of this is irrefutable. The articles provide simply another perspective for your consideration. At the end of the day my findings in my own system support the views of both authors, YMMV.
> 
> _ "If, like many audiophiles, you have spent a small (or large) fortune on your hi-fi system, *money spent for high quality cables and connectors is a reasonable investment.*"- Nelson Pass_



Irrefutable? Of course. It's your anecdote(your system results) you also can't refute that I can fly!

I believe mr pass means good construction at a sensible cost. I never understood him to say spend exorbitant amounts on Magic cables. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Philm63

3dbinCanada said:


> Lamp chord is the way to go provided the gauge is thick enough for the run if aesthetics don't come into play.:smile:


With a little Techflex and some nice connectors, maybe some of those nifty glass insulators for stand-offs...


----------



## witchdoctor

Philm63 said:


> Agreed - that article points out a lot of interesting things I didn't know were there in the evolution of what we now call "Speaker Cables". Being fairly new to all this, I thought Monster was the only way to go.


Here is a wonderful comparison of various interconnects for you to begin your beyond monster journey, while no testing is perfect the summary is a great place to begin the auditioning process:

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/audio-cable-shootout-part-1-12-2000.html

You can borrow pretty much any of these to audition here:

https://www.thecableco.com/content.aspx?iid=5777


----------



## witchdoctor

willis7469 said:


> Irrefutable? Of course. It's your anecdote(your system results) you also can't refute that I can fly!
> 
> I believe mr pass means good construction at a sensible cost. I never understood him to say spend exorbitant amounts on Magic cables.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What you believe he means is not what he wrote.


----------



## 3dbinCanada

witchdoctor said:


> Here is a wonderful comparison of various interconnects for you to begin your beyond monster journey, while no testing is perfect the summary is a great place to begin the auditioning process:
> 
> http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/audio-cable-shootout-part-1-12-2000.html
> 
> You can borrow pretty much any of these to audition here:
> 
> https://www.thecableco.com/content.aspx?iid=5777


Cable resonate frequency is a snake oil parameter and should not even enter a discussion. I really get miffed when I see things such as this being used in engineering discussions. Don't believe a word of this as that publication is merely trying to retain advertisement dollars.


----------



## witchdoctor

3dbinCanada said:


> Cable resonate frequency is a snake oil parameter and should not even enter a discussion. I really get miffed when I see things such as this being used in engineering discussions. Don't believe a word of this as this publication is merely trying to retain advertisement dollars.


I can see you are miffed, good luck with your audio journey. I encourage you to keep an open mind and an open ear and post about things you have actually auditioned yourself, like the authors did in those articles.


----------



## willis7469

witchdoctor said:


> What you believe he means is not what he wrote.



This statement might be mutually true. I use his statement to say be sensible and, you've used it to find comfort in your purchases. Great!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## witchdoctor

willis7469 said:


> This statement might be mutually true. I use his statement to say be sensible and, you've used it to find comfort in your purchases. Great!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I use a 30 day audition period on all purchases so I don't get burned. No statement can replace an in home audition. Check out the cable face off I posted and start the auditioning process with the winners. Those guys were very thorough in their testing and posted measurements and they did a blind listening test but YMMV. Most vendors provide a 30 day audition, have fun! Here is their summary:

Summary

The Maple Audio Works Ambiance is the shootout winner for sound and value.

Purist Audio Design Proteus is absolutely neutral and is a space age product.

Model #470 from Granite Audio is the best silver cable.

Cable 4You Whitesnake One is the winner of category ”B”.

JPS Labs Ultraconductor is the winner of category “C”.

The Straight Wire Maestro II has the best connectors.


----------



## 3dbinCanada

witchdoctor said:


> I can see you are miffed, good luck with your audio journey. I encourage you to keep an open mind and an open ear and post about things you have actually auditioned yourself, like the authors did in those articles.


Authors selling snake oil have no credibility despite the number of cables and power cables they've auditioned. The credibility gets diminished even further if controlled blind listening tests were not employed. I suggest that you read some of Floyd Toole's work to undo the damage done by the same authors that sell snake oil as a miracle cure-all for anything audio related.


----------



## witchdoctor

3dbinCanada said:


> Authors selling snake oil have no credibility despite the number of cables and power cables they've auditioned. The credibility gets diminished even further if controlled blind listening tests were not employed. I suggest that you read some of Floyd Toole's work to undo the damage done by the same authors that sell snake oil as a miracle cure-all for anything audio related.


Like I said, you are obviously miffed about all of this, good luck with everything.:smile:


----------



## 3dbinCanada

​


witchdoctor said:


> Like I said, you are obviously miffed about all of this, good luck with everything.:smile:


Not miffed with you just so you know. Good luck to you as well.


----------



## lovinthehd

The witchdoctor usually forgets to state the "borrowing" policy's cost at his website (cableco) so I'll throw it out there for anyone considering "borrowing" cables from them:

"A deposit equal to 5% of the selling price of the borrowed cables will be charged to the consumer´s credit card when the arrangements for the cable loan are made. This deposit is not refundable, but will be applied in full against purchases (cable or non-cable products) from The Cable Company, Usedcable.com, or our Ultra Systems affiliate"

You're also on the hook for the return postage/shipping. 

Such a deal! So if you want to "borrow" a pair of the Acrolink Mexcel 7N-DA6300 II it will only cost you $342.50 plus return shipping. LOL.


----------



## NBPk402

Savjac said:


> Maybe if we agree that the speakers, like everything else in the audio chain should be taken as it was received without worrying about what is inside. It is what it is and we need to provide it the best possible signal, in terms of both our hearing acumen as well as our audio tastes. I believe that using a proper wire would be quite important here as for the most part the audio signal does not normally jump from the amplifier to the speaker on its own, it needs direction and control.
> 
> I think that using an 18 gauge speaker wire would be a bit like using a 3mm rubber hose to provide fuel to a top fuel drag motor. It most probably wont work.





3dbinCanada said:


> It will work if the run is short enough. I didn't say it was attractive nor am I proponent of using 18 gauge wire. The only exception I can think of is if the system is high powered enough that it will exceed the current carrying capacity of the wire. I use 14 and 16 gauge depending on the run length.


Reminds me of back in the 70s when they were using double 00 Battery cable for short runs...remember that? I am happy with my Monoprice 12 gauge.


----------



## witchdoctor

lovinthehd said:


> The witchdoctor usually forgets to state the "borrowing" policy's cost at his website (cableco) so I'll throw it out there for anyone considering "borrowing" cables from them:
> 
> "A deposit equal to 5% of the selling price of the borrowed cables will be charged to the consumer´s credit card when the arrangements for the cable loan are made. This deposit is not refundable, but will be applied in full against purchases (cable or non-cable products) from The Cable Company, Usedcable.com, or our Ultra Systems affiliate"
> 
> You're also on the hook for the return postage/shipping.
> 
> Such a deal! So if you want to "borrow" a pair of the Acrolink Mexcel 7N-DA6300 II it will only cost you $342.50 plus return shipping. LOL.


That is the Cable Company policy, the benefit is you don't need to layout the full purchase price of the cable. Many of the vendors will ship to you at the full purchase price and refund it after 30 days if you are not happy. If $342 is too much money for you try auditioning these:

https://www.thecableco.com/Product/Action-2-0

They are $118 and the 5% deposit to borrow them should be well within your budget. There are many, many cables within that price range to choose from, have fun.

Audioadvisor.com and Amazon also have good return policies.


----------



## lovinthehd

witchdoctor said:


> That is the Cable Company policy, the benefit is you don't need to layout the full purchase price of the cable. Many of the vendors will ship to you at the full purchase price and refund it after 30 days if you are not happy. If $342 is too much money for you try auditioning these:
> 
> https://www.thecableco.com/Product/Action-2-0
> 
> They are $118 and the 5% deposit to borrow them should be well within your budget. There are many, many cables within that price range to choose from, have fun.
> 
> Audioadvisor.com and Amazon also have good return policies.



But why on earth would I want to do that? I simply make my own and sprinkle fairy dust on them when I'm finished.


----------



## chashint

Pseudo science is pretty much impossible to argue against.
The believers have an inexhaustible supply of manufacturer's "white papers" and "scientific studies" to draw upon that take bits and pieces of theory out of context and presents them in a consumer friendly manner as 'fact' to support whatever argument is at hand.

At audio frequencies the wavelength of 20Hz-20KHz (in wire) is simply to long for any of the parasitic electrical parameters to have an effect. 
I know its not what the believers want to hear but that's the way it is. 
For anyone to use transmission line theory to validate one speaker wire being superior to another is misleading at best and fraudulent at worst.

Also riddle me this.....one of the biggest rallying cries for the external amplifier crowd is, the speaker is hard to drive at certain frequencies because of impedance dips so you need an amp to properly drive the speaker.....why would anyone ever want to change something that would lower the overall impedance between the amplifier and the speaker?

In a home audio environment if you use plain vanilla AWG 12 copper speaker wire you are using well designed high quality wire and electrically there is nothing left to be gained in this area.

I am not immune to overkill hence my use of AWG 12 (currently $.33/ft) vs a smaller gauge of speaker wire, but I try to keep it somewhat in the real world. 

If you like fancy speaker wires by all means buy them, there is nothing wrong with bling if that is what you like.

I just hate to see new people get sucked into some of these fringe areas and spend any unnecessary money on wiring when it can be better used on speakers.


----------



## witchdoctor

_


chashint said:



Pseudo science is pretty much impossible to argue against.

Click to expand...

_
Who wants to argue? I advocate an in home audition. No amount of reading articles can replace that. If you have auditioned a component please share so we can all benefit.:smile:

Your conclusions about what is to be gained are based on comparing your 12 gauge cable to many different brands in a wide variety of systems right? Please be specific. What cable did you audition, did you measure it, did you conduct listening tests, what was the associated equipment etc.
If you need an example please refer to the article I posted that actually compared various types of cables.


----------



## witchdoctor

lovinthehd said:


> But why on earth would I want to do that? I simply make my own and sprinkle fairy dust on them when I'm finished.


You are happy, and as in all fairy tales your fairy dust seems to be all you needed.


----------



## tonyvdb

I love spending other people's money, go buy all the exspencive cables you want and believe all the snake oil you want to. Just don't try to make me think it's a worthwhile investment cause it's not. White paper articles are only good to start a fire in my fire pit.


----------



## witchdoctor

tonyvdb said:


> I love spending other people's money, go buy all the exspencive cables you want and believe all the snake oil you want to. Just don't try to make me think it's a worthwhile investment cause it's not. White paper articles are only good to start a fire in my fire pit.


Fire pit? Are you a little miffed about all of this too?


----------



## JBrax

Fire pit? Did somebody say fire pit? Now you're talking my language.  On a serious note there ain't NO WAY I'd spend $342 or $118 to borrow a cable.


----------



## chashint

witchdoctor said:


> Who wants to argue? I advocate an in home audition. No amount of reading articles can replace that. If you have auditioned a component please share so we can all benefit.:smile: Your conclusions about what is to be gained are based on comparing your 12 gauge cable to many different brands in a wide variety of systems right? Please be specific. What cable did you audition, did you measure it, did you conduct listening tests, what was the associated equipment etc. If you need an example please refer to the article I posted that actually compared various types of cables.


You want to argue since you reply to every post with the same/similar circular response. It is much like carrying on a discussion with a child who simply answers every response with why. 
It can go on forever. Specific information has been provided in this thread to refute the marketing brochures you have linked to, but as always the response is the same. 
Demands for documented testing. 
Lists of specific equipment. 
Demand to do a "free" audition and see for yourself. 
It almost seems like you are a retailer playing around on here to me. 
I have been involved with HiFi since 1977, I cannot remember all of the different equipment I have spent time with. 
The things that make a real difference is the speakers, the speaker placement, and the room. 
Once the speakers and room are properly setup pretty much all preamps/processors/amps/AVRs become virtually unidentifiable from each other if room correction and other processing is turned off (in the old days it was easy, just set tone control to 0). 
That is my experience. 
I don't think I have ever said you don't (think) you hear a difference when you swap cables, but if you (or anyone else) do hear a difference in speaker wires or power cords or interconnect cables it is not because of the electrical reasons stated in the many marketing links you have posted. 
The science used there is taken out of context, the stated result on the sound is misrepresented. 
I am willing to bet that you could listen (blind folded) to your favorite speaker wires for an hour and then if you let me (anyone else) replace them with plain jane $.33/ft speaker wires you would instantly hear a big negative difference in the sound.....but there would be a surprise....even though (the helper) rattled around they never actually touched your favorite speaker wires so the new sound is still the same as it has always been.....just a thought to consider.


----------



## witchdoctor

_I don't think I have ever said you don't (think) you hear a difference when you swap cables, but if you (or anyone else) do hear a difference in speaker wires or power cords or interconnect cables it is not because of the electrical reasons stated in the many marketing links you have posted._


Well i guess you seem happy with whatever setup you have. I still just see a lot of general info in your post along with a little being miffed. I posted white papers, tests, and anything else to help you on your audio journey. If you have arrived at a destination that makes you happy we are all happy for you, congrats!:smile:

For those of you wishing to squeeze the performance your components are truly capable of nothing will replace an in home audition of a truly high end cable. At the end of the day you have to "listen".


----------



## witchdoctor

JBrax said:


> Fire pit? Did somebody say fire pit? Now you're talking my language.  On a serious note there ain't NO WAY I'd spend $342 or $118 to borrow a cable.


You would need to spend 5% of $118 plus shipping to borrow that cable. I encourage you to only try components you can return after an in home audition. If you don't like that vendor try another one.


----------



## lovinthehd

witchdoctor said:


> _I don't think I have ever said you don't (think) you hear a difference when you swap cables, but if you (or anyone else) do hear a difference in speaker wires or power cords or interconnect cables it is not because of the electrical reasons stated in the many marketing links you have posted._
> 
> 
> Well i guess you seem happy with whatever setup you have. I still just see a lot of general info in your post along with a little being miffed. I posted white papers, tests, and anything else to help you on your audio journey. If you have arrived at a destination that makes you happy we are all happy for you, congrats!:smile:
> 
> For those of you wishing to squeeze the performance your components are truly capable of nothing will replace an in home audition of a truly high end cable. At the end of the day you have to "listen".


Just don't forget to remind us each time that this service you offer isn't free, its a rental, not a borrowing (unless of course someone is fool enough to buy something). A little honesty for you would go a long way. Whatever happened to your DIY cable project? You should have had time to finish that by now, and should be far more enlightening than your continued promotion of cableco using the phrase "borrowing"....


----------



## JBrax

witchdoctor said:


> You would need to spend 5% of $118 plus shipping to borrow that cable. I encourage you to only try components you can return after an in home audition. If you don't like that vendor try another one.


 Just out of curiosity would Audioquest cables be considered "truly high end cables?"


----------



## willis7469

JBrax said:


> Just out of curiosity would Audioquest cables be considered "truly high end cables?"



I've seen reports of AQ cable tests being rigged. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lovinthehd

JBrax said:


> Just out of curiosity would Audioquest cables be considered "truly high end cables?"



No. Just truly expensive cables.  Cable charlatans mostly.


----------



## willis7469

lovinthehd said:


> No. Just truly expensive cables.  Cable charlatans mostly.



Try this on for size. 
http://www.audioholics.com/editorials/mark-waldrep-audioquest-open-letter-editorial


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Philm63

witchdoctor said:


> _For those of you wishing to squeeze the performance your components are truly capable of nothing will replace an in home audition of a truly high end cable. At the end of the day you have to "listen"._


_

I think it would be really neat if someone here could reproduce the equipment used by Gordon Gow to readily switch between speaker cables for a true A/B comparison. Double blind, impartial subjects, etc. Then we could take those cables you want us to try and put them beside another basic speaker cable and let some folks from the outside world come and have a listen. include some "Audiophiles" and a few folks that just like to listen to music. Bring Gramma; I want a true slice of the average folks out there to listen and see what they think._


----------



## willis7469

Philm63 said:


> I think it would be really neat if someone here could reproduce the equipment used by Gordon Gow to readily switch between speaker cables for a true A/B comparison. Double blind, impartial subjects, etc. Then we could take those cables you want us to try and put them beside another basic speaker cable and let some folks from the outside world come and have a listen. include some "Audiophiles" and a few folks that just like to listen to music. Bring Gramma; I want a true slice of the average folks out there to listen and see what they think.



Yes. This!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JBrax

So if I had something like this I wouldn't see any improvement?


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## willis7469

Yes. Mountains of improvement. Sorry...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JBrax

willis7469 said:


> Yes. Mountains of improvement. Sorry... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Hahaha, but they look really cool and therefore my ears heard improvement. On a serious note (again) there was no improvement whatsoever. I was able to score these cables at a very good price due to someone else's unfortunate situation.


----------



## willis7469

JBrax said:


> Hahaha, but they look really cool and therefore my ears heard improvement. On a serious note (again) there was no improvement whatsoever. I was able to score these cables at a very good price due to someone else's unfortunate situation.



I think at the very least Jeff, they will last a long time as I'm sure they're built well. Probably look cool too!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## witchdoctor

JBrax said:


> Just out of curiosity would Audioquest cables be considered "truly high end cables?"


There are tons of reviews on Amazon from people who actually purchased an Audioquest product, you should start there.


----------



## witchdoctor

Philm63 said:


> I think it would be really neat if someone here could reproduce the equipment used by Gordon Gow to readily switch between speaker cables for a true A/B comparison. Double blind, impartial subjects, etc. Then we could take those cables you want us to try and put them beside another basic speaker cable and let some folks from the outside world come and have a listen. include some "Audiophiles" and a few folks that just like to listen to music. Bring Gramma; I want a true slice of the average folks out there to listen and see what they think.


I think it is overkill but if you insist:

http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=271&Itemid=238


----------



## lovinthehd

witchdoctor said:


> There are tons of reviews on Amazon from people who actually purchased an Audioquest product, you should start there.


There is also a ton of absolutely hilarious comments in those reviews, too. Highly entertaining stuff like here, don't miss the user Q&A part, too.


----------



## witchdoctor

JBrax said:


> So if I had something like this I wouldn't see any improvement?
> 
> View attachment 116754


Please try it and post your experience:smile:

I hope you get a return policy just in case.


----------



## JBrax

willis7469 said:


> I think at the very least Jeff, they will last a long time as I'm sure they're built well. Probably look cool too! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Oh they do look good! Let's just say it was more of a humanitarian purchase to help a proud person in need.


----------



## JBrax

witchdoctor said:


> There are tons of reviews on Amazon from people who actually purchased an Audioquest product, you should start there.


 No need but thanks. I knew exactly what I was "purchasing".


----------



## JBrax

lovinthehd said:


> There is also a ton of absolutely hilarious comments in those reviews, too. Highly entertaining stuff like here, don't miss the user Q&A part, too.


 Gotta love the comedic value on overpriced stuff on Amazon. I've spent some time reading them.


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## JBrax

Read through some of these reviews. Sorry for taking this way off topic.
LG Electronics 98UB9800 98-inch 4K Ultra HD 3D Smart LED TV (2015 Model) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KPZALXQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_aMX9wb84F5A76


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## Philm63

JBrax said:


> Gotta love the comedic value on overpriced stuff on Amazon. I've spent some time reading them.


Those reviews are telling, no? Good stuff!


----------



## JBrax

My all time favorite. 
Waterfall Audio "Niagara" Diamond Glass Floor Standing Loudspeakers - Pair (Old Version) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002BSH27I/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awd_2PX9wbHJ9QT19


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## ajinfla

witchdoctor said:


> Please try it and post your experience:smile:


Everyones subjective experience might be different. No right, no wrong, no absolutes. Whatever one prefers.
If you are claiming that the cable physically changes the soundfield, the hearing/sound>ears/brain part, that is an objective claim. As such, it would require reliable, objective evidence.
That means a blind, controlled listening evaluation, where cost, looks, materials, reviews, etc, etc play zero role. Just the objective part of the claim, sound>ears.
If such evidence exists for non-pathological cables, i.e, no inductance high enough to create FR change, no capacitance high enough to induce oscillation, no resistance high enough to change levels, within human hearing thresholds, then now is the time to present it.
Otherwise, it's just your subjective experience...and there is nothing to argue about there.:smile:

cheers


----------



## willis7469

witchdoctor said:


> Please try it and post your experience:smile:
> 
> I hope you get a return policy just in case.



He did. Said no improvement. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## witchdoctor

ajinfla said:


> Everyones subjective experience might be different. No right, no wrong, no absolutes. Whatever one prefers.
> If you are claiming that the cable physically changes the soundfield, the hearing/sound>ears/brain part, that is an objective claim. As such, it would require reliable, objective evidence.
> That means a blind, controlled listening evaluation, where cost, looks, materials, reviews, etc, etc play zero role. Just the objective part of the claim, sound>ears.
> If such evidence exists for non-pathological cables, i.e, no inductance high enough to create FR change, no capacitance high enough to induce oscillation, no resistance high enough to change levels, within human hearing thresholds, then now is the time to present it.
> Otherwise, it's just your subjective experience...and there is nothing to argue about there.:smile:
> 
> cheers


I actually posted I am not here to argue but to advocate an in home audition of any component. As for evidence I think you will find that the cable comparison I posted earlier includes measurements and double blind testing.

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/audio-cable-shootout-part-1-12-2000.html


----------



## ajinfla

lovinthehd said:


> You should have had time to finish that by now, and should be far more enlightening than your continued shilling....


That's a strong accusation, witchdoctor states he has no financial involvement with cables. Please be cordial unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise, thanks.


----------



## ajinfla

witchdoctor said:


> I actually posted I am not here to argue but to advocate an in home audition of any component. As for evidence I think you will find that the cable comparison I posted earlier includes measurements and double blind testing.
> 
> http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/audio-cable-shootout-part-1-12-2000.html





> In the second phase, we used a *single blind* controlled listening situation. The recordings were chosen carefully, but in a quarter of hour we could only test three different cables. Then, we would rest and drink coffee. One person served as the cable manipulator and also recorded the results. We used two recordings for each test of three cables in the quarter hour period. The sense organs would strain. More coffee. More and more trips to the can because of all that coffee. One of the reviewers might be cold, another not in a good mood. This was not easy. However, we tried to test all the cables with different music and when everyone was as relaxed as possible. With about 25 different pairs of cables, we calculated finishing in the year 2023. Fortunately, we got done sooner, but now we all hate coffee.


First, the test was claimed to be single blind, not double. Second, it is a completely ad hoc "test", completely free of actual reliable blind test methods, controls, statistical analysis, etc, etc.
Here would be a quick guide for a non-pathological listening test. https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec//R-REC-.1116-1-199710-S!!PDF-E.pdf
The "test" you posted is completely invalid to the question of audibility. Sorry.

cheers


----------



## lovinthehd

ajinfla said:


> That's a strong accusation, witchdoctor states he has no financial involvement with cables. Please be cordial unless there is evidence to suggest otherwise, thanks.


Sorry, will withdraw the statement in a sec. I must have erroneously come to that conclusion after reading quite a few of his posts here and elsewhere where he asks people to "borrow" cables from cableco as he is doing here. He posts about little else, probably my imagination at work.


----------



## witchdoctor

ajinfla said:


> First, the test was claimed to be single blind, not double. Second, it is a completely ad hoc "test", completely free of actual reliable blind test methods, controls, statistical analysis, etc, etc.
> Here would be a quick guide for a non-pathological listening test. https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec//R-REC-.1116-1-199710-S!!PDF-E.pdf
> The "test" you posted is completely invalid to the question of audibility. Sorry.
> 
> cheers


I disagree, it is a completely valid way to begin the process of trying new cables. The authors did an excellent job and you can see their conclusions. As for the validity of testing like I said, these articles are merely a starting point, ultimately you simply need to compare for yourself.
Here is at least 100 more cable comparisons, none of them ever conclude that all cables sound the same. I am not saying you should agree and go buy what the other guy likes but to not try it and decide for yourself?
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=disconnect&x=/html&q=cable+shootout


----------



## ajinfla

witchdoctor said:


> I disagree


There is nothing to disagree with. The test is neither double blind or valid. It is complete worthless for answering whether objective evidence exists for sound>ear for cables.
I provided a link for valid test methods, did you read them?

Out of curiosity, why do you need "objective" evidence for your purely subjective, casual uncontrolled listening experience?
Are you a bit unsure about something that is supposedly purely subjective?


----------



## JBrax

witchdoctor said:


> I disagree, it is a completely valid way to begin the process of trying new cables. The authors did an excellent job and you can see their conclusions. As for the validity of testing like I said, these articles are merely a starting point, ultimately you simply need to compare for yourself. Here is at least 100 more cable comparisons, none of them ever conclude that all cables sound the same. I am not saying you should agree and go buy what the other guy likes but to not try it and decide for yourself? https://duckduckgo.com/?t=disconnect&x=/html&q=cable+shootout


 I tried it and decided for myself. The cables made no audible difference whatsoever.


----------



## lovinthehd

ajinfla said:


> First, the test was claimed to be single blind, not double. Second, it is a completely ad hoc "test", completely free of actual reliable blind test methods, controls, statistical analysis, etc, etc.
> Here would be a quick guide for a non-pathological listening test. https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec//R-REC-.1116-1-199710-S!!PDF-E.pdf
> The "test" you posted is completely invalid to the question of audibility. Sorry.
> 
> cheers


Your link gets to the ITU site and then indicates:

You have requested a page or file which does not exist.


----------



## witchdoctor

ajinfla said:


> There is nothing to disagree with. The test is neither double blind or valid. It is complete worthless for answering whether objective evidence exists for sound>ear for cables.
> I provided a link for valid test methods, did you read them?
> 
> Out of curiosity, why do you need "objective" evidence for your purely subjective, casual uncontrolled listening experience?
> Are you a bit unsure about something that is supposedly purely subjective?


The link didn't work. As for the testing methods employed there are at least 100 others in the link I posted. But testing is only designed to give you an idea of what to audition yourself. Everything I have posted has a context of comparing something based on experience. I have only seen one post here from someone that actually tried a cable.
i am curious, what cables have you tried yourself in your system under whatever test conditions you deem valid?


----------



## witchdoctor

JBrax said:


> I tried it and decided for myself. The cables made no audible difference whatsoever.


Based on your system try a nice power cord upgrade on that fine SVS subwoofer. It won't be a subtle improvement, more like a shotgun blast of POWER:smile:

Here is a link to get you started but just google Power Cord shootout or Power cord review for tons more:

http://www.audiodrom.cz/recenze/kabely/262.html


----------



## JBrax

witchdoctor said:


> Based on your system try a nice power cord upgrade on that fine SVS subwoofer. It won't be a subtle improvement, more like a shotgun blast of POWER:smile: Here is a link to get you started but just google Power Cord shootout or Power cord review for tons more: http://www.head-fi.org/t/219202/its-done-power-cord-shoot-out-22-power-cords-reviewed


 SUBWOOFERS! Now I gotta say I wasn't expecting that reply. Power cord? Really? So the fine folks at SVS have included a suboptimal power cord? I have many questions now.


----------



## lovinthehd

JBrax said:


> SUBWOOFERS! Now I gotta say I wasn't expecting that reply. Power cord? Really? So the fine folks at SVS have included a suboptimal power cord? I have many questions now.


Wait until he advises you to replace your electrical outlet wall plate with the special mapleweed version!


----------



## JBrax

lovinthehd said:


> Wait until he advises you to replace your electrical outlet wall plate with the special mapleweed version!


 I'll have to draw the line there.


----------



## Philm63

When I got my new sub it just wouldn't perform like I thought so I put this high-end power cord on it and this thing really came to life!









But of course when I went to attach this fine power cord I noticed I hadn't even attached the one that came with it... oops. Go ahead; ask me how much I paid for it...


----------



## ajinfla

Google itu .1116

Second link pdf file.

ITU-R .1116-1


----------



## ajinfla

Something wacky going on with links here...

Doh!! The forum software is removing the key letters Bee and Ess from everything

ITU-R BeeEss.1116-1


----------



## witchdoctor

JBrax said:


> SUBWOOFERS! Now I gotta say I wasn't expecting that reply. Power cord? Really? So the fine folks at SVS have included a suboptimal power cord? I have many questions now.


Do you have any reviewers that you like? There are a LOT of guys that write reviews and see if you can find one that you like that has also reviewed power cords. 
Then try auditioning a few and compare. Please post whatever you try so we can all benefit. 
As for the fine folks at SVS they don't manufacture power cables so why beat them up about it?
Try their interconnect and post if you prefer:
http://www.svsound.com/products/soundpath-rca-audio-cable

review
http://www.hometheaterequipment.com...terconnect-cables-review-sean-killebrew-4275/

Here is post from a guy using SVS and upgraded to a better power cord:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-power-cord-for-subwoofer

You already know what I am going to say next, TRY IT and then post an opinion. Your ears will answer the rest of your questions.


----------



## witchdoctor

Philm63 said:


> When I got my new sub it just wouldn't perform like I thought so I put this high-end power cord on it and this thing really came to life!
> 
> View attachment 116762
> 
> 
> But of course when I went to attach this fine power cord I noticed I hadn't even attached the one that came with it... oops. Go ahead; ask me how much I paid for it...


i'll bite, how much and would you recommend it?


----------



## lovinthehd

ajinfla said:


> Something wacky going on with links here...
> 
> Doh!! The forum software is removing the key letters Bee and Ess from everything
> 
> ITU-R BeeEss.1116-1



Too much already in the thread for any more, I like it!


----------



## NBPk402

witchdoctor said:


> Do you have any reviewers that you like? There are a LOT of guys that write reviews and see if you can find one that you like that has also reviewed power cords.
> Then try auditioning a few and compare. Please post whatever you try so we can all benefit.
> As for the fine folks at SVS they don't manufacture power cables so why beat them up about it?
> Try their interconnect and post if you prefer:
> http://www.svsound.com/products/soundpath-rca-audio-cable
> 
> You already know what I am going to say next, TRY IT and then post an opinion. Your ears will answer the rest of your questions.


The thread is for discussion of audio cables...not power cables, please get back on track.


----------



## Philm63

witchdoctor said:


> i'll bite, how much and would you recommend it?


Made it myself for around $30. Yes, I would highly recommend it if your stock power cord is one of those 18/3 (or 18/2) flimsy numbers with super-cheap molded-on attachment plugs. I never actually looked, but I'm sure Tom sent a pretty decent power cord with that fine sub.

EDIT - Sorry Ron; Back to speaker cables...


----------



## witchdoctor

Philm63 said:


> When I got my new sub it just wouldn't perform like I thought so I put this high-end power cord on it and this thing really came to life!
> 
> View attachment 116762
> 
> 
> But of course when I went to attach this fine power cord I noticed I hadn't even attached the one that came with it... oops. Go ahead; ask me how much I paid for it...


BTW, I never plug directly into the wall, power surges do happen.


----------



## JBrax

I don't remember having to buy power cords when I purchased my SVS subs? Are they not included?


----------



## JBrax

Philm63 said:


> When I got my new sub it just wouldn't perform like I thought so I put this high-end power cord on it and this thing really came to life! But of course when I went to attach this fine power cord I noticed I hadn't even attached the one that came with it... oops. Go ahead; ask me how much I paid for it...


 Well played. I'd guess eleventeenthousand but well worth it based on looks alone.


----------



## witchdoctor

ellisr63 said:


> The thread is for discussion of audio cables...not power cables, please get back on track.


OK, first of all your system is amazing, the Yammie, the JBL's you could definitely benefit from a cable upgrade.

I would try those same SVS interconnects in your system as a start with the 45 day audition. Get the ones for your sub and the standard ones for your other components.

BTW, we both use the same Monster HTPS 7000 Power conditioner and I congratulate you on your good taste.
Where I see you getting a HUGE bang for the buck lift is speaker cables. I can only speak from experience and have not tried every speaker cable out there but my own JBL's sound great with these:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/mapleshade-speaker-cables

If you have questions feel free to post.


----------



## willis7469

Philm63 said:


> When I got my new sub it just wouldn't perform like I thought so I put this high-end power cord on it and this thing really came to life!
> 
> View attachment 116762
> 
> 
> But of course when I went to attach this fine power cord I noticed I hadn't even attached the one that came with it... oops. Go ahead; ask me how much I paid for it...



Love this. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NBPk402

witchdoctor said:


> OK, first of all your system is amazing, the Yammie, the JBL's you could definitely benefit from a cable upgrade.
> 
> I would try those same SVS interconnects in your system as a start with the 45 day audition. Get the ones for your sub and the standard ones for your other components.
> 
> BTW, we both use the same Monster HTPS 7000 Power conditioner and I congratulate you on your good taste.
> Where I see you getting a HUGE bang for the buck lift is speaker cables. I can only speak from experience and have not tried every speaker cable out there but my own JBL's sound great with these:
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/mapleshade-speaker-cables
> 
> If you have questions feel free to post.


Thanks for the suggestion, but I have tried different interconnects, and speaker wires in the past. I am perfectly happy with my Monoprice XLRs, and 12 gauge speaker wires.


----------



## JBrax

ellisr63 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion, but I have tried different interconnects, and speaker wires in the past. I am perfectly happy with my Monoprice XLRs, and 12 gauge speaker wires.


 Like this?


----------



## JBrax

My Monoprice 12 AWG speaker wire made a night and day difference. Really opened my speakers up!


----------



## willis7469

witchdoctor said:


> Based on your system try a nice power cord upgrade on that fine SVS subwoofer. It won't be a subtle improvement, more like a shotgun blast of POWER:smile:


 @Ed Mullen. Is there any light you might shed? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## willis7469

JBrax said:


> Well played. I'd guess eleventeenthousand but well worth it based on looks alone.



I would have said fiftyeleven! Looks nice. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## witchdoctor

ellisr63 said:


> Thanks for the suggestion, but I have tried different interconnects, and speaker wires in the past. I am perfectly happy with my Monoprice XLRs, and 12 gauge speaker wires.


You need to watch this ASAP:


----------



## JBrax

willis7469 said:


> I would have said fiftyeleven! Looks nice. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Fiftyeleven? Without the thousand not near enough as some true audiophile would certainly scoop all the good cables up.


----------



## willis7469

JBrax said:


> Fiftyeleven? Without the thousand not near enough as some true audiophile would certainly scoop all the good cables up.



Sorry, that was the cost to borrow it. :neener:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JBrax

willis7469 said:


> Sorry, that was the cost to borrow it. :neener: Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 FOLD!!!


----------



## willis7469

JBrax said:


> FOLD!!!



Lol! 
Happy Easter. See ya in here tomorrow!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JBrax

willis7469 said:


> Lol! Happy Easter. See ya in here tomorrow! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Happy Easter.


----------



## witchdoctor

ajinfla said:


> Google itu .1116
> 
> Second link pdf file.
> 
> ITU-R .1116-1


I found it, it says-
_This Recommendation is intended for use in the assessment of systems which introduce impairments so small as to be
undetectable without rigorous control of the experimental conditions and appropriate statistical analysis. *If used for
systems that introduce relatively large and easily detectable impairments, it leads to excessive expenditure of time and
effort and may also lead to less reliable results than a simpler test. *_

This method leads to an excessive expenditure of time and the results are less reliable than a simple test according to the author. Here is the simpler testing method I prefer:

1) Order a new cable.
2) Plug it in.
3) Listen to it for a period of 25 days.
4) Plug back in my old cable.
5) If I don't miss the new cable send it back for a refund.
6) If I can't live without it keep it.
7) Repeat until your face is frozen in a permanent grin.:smile:

Works for me.

If this other testing method works for you, fantastic. Please conduct some tests on some cables using the method you prefer and post about the actual cables you auditioned, it would be great. Maybe start with the cables in the article I posted and see how your method may provide different results.


----------



## Savjac

ajinfla said:


> Everyones subjective experience might be different. No right, no wrong, no absolutes. Whatever one prefers.
> If you are claiming that the cable physically changes the soundfield, the hearing/sound>ears/brain part, that is an objective claim.
> If such evidence exists for non-pathological cables, i.e, no inductance high enough to create FR change, no capacitance high enough to induce oscillation, no resistance high enough to change levels, within human hearing thresholds, then now is the time to present it.
> Otherwise, it's just your subjective experience...and there is nothing to argue about there.:smile:
> 
> cheers


AJ and I do not always agree, but on these points I applaud his entry. For me this is 100% subjective based upon what I believe I hear in repeated home listening sessions. I use not meters, I do not understand or care about the specifications and I do not know if black holes or the motions of the moon can impart differences in the cable while they are being shot into space to receive some ultimate cold treatments in a zero atmosphere environment. 

I make sure the cable looks clean, no green growth on the wire, is properly terminated, even if I terminate it when the terminator is not available, and it must be of sufficient gauge to handle most anything that moves through it. I do believe that most copper wire being made these days should be more or less oxygen free, although I cannot always be sure as some of the stuff coming out of China might be made of anything from baby shoes to zebra hair thrown into the melting vats. As such this is where for me, the listening part comes in. Nothing more, nothing less, if I like the cables then I can make them mine. I do not worry about returns if i am not happy as I do not spend a great deal of money on them so I just keep what I dont like for emergencies or if a friend needs a quick replacement for what his dog just chewed up. 

Yes, Subjective is the word, I have no actual proof that can be shown in a graph or what have you. An there you have it. Come by any time and we can have a listen.lddude:


----------



## 3dbinCanada

Savjac said:


> AJ and I do not always agree, but on these points I applaud his entry. For me this is 100% subjective based upon what I believe I hear in repeated home listening sessions. I use not meters, I do not understand or care about the specifications and I do not know if black holes or the motions of the moon can impart differences in the cable while they are being shot into space to receive some ultimate cold treatments in a zero atmosphere environment.
> 
> I make sure the cable looks clean, no green growth on the wire, is properly terminated, even if I terminate it when the terminator is not available, and it must be of sufficient gauge to handle most anything that moves through it. I do believe that most copper wire being made these days should be more or less oxygen free, although I cannot always be sure as some of the stuff coming out of China might be made of anything from baby shoes to zebra hair thrown into the melting vats. As such this is where for me, the listening part comes in. Nothing more, nothing less, if I like the cables then I can make them mine. I do not worry about returns if i am not happy as I do not spend a great deal of money on them so I just keep what I dont like for emergencies or if a friend needs a quick replacement for what his dog just chewed up.
> 
> Yes, Subjective is the word, I have no actual proof that can be shown in a graph or what have you. An there you have it. Come by any time and we can have a listen.lddude:


Subjective is still very flawed if its not a controlled listening test, ie, a blind listening test. Its been proven without a shadow of a doubt how much of our thoughts and other senses come into play when listening. Its not just our ears. Therefore, any hope of a subjective difference to be remotely plausible has to be done under strict controlled listening. I do not buy into AJ's arguement based on this. No offense intended to anyone here.  Happy Easter everyone


----------



## witchdoctor

3dbinCanada said:


> Subjective is still very flawed if its not a controlled listening test, ie, a blind listening test. Its been proven without a shadow of a doubt how much of our thoughts and other senses come into play when listening. Its not just our ears. Therefore, any hope of a subjective difference to be remotely plausible has to be done under strict controlled listening. I do not buy into AJ's arguement based on this. No offense intended to anyone here.  Happy Easter everyone


Well although subjective listening is flawed we can all become better at it according to Harman:

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/05/harmans-how-to-listen-new-listener.html

you can download the program free and give it a whirl here, it is fun:

http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/2011/01/welcome-to-how-to-listen.html

once you become a trained listener you won't be perfect but it should help. Harman uses trained listeners at their speaker testing lab. Regretfully few of us have the $$$ to shop for speakers under these conditions or any component so have to rely on what we have, imperfect as it may be. This will get you into the blind listening arena if it is still important:

http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=271&Itemid=238


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## willis7469

http://www.goldenears.philips.com/en/introduction.html
Here's another fun one. 


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## NBPk402

JBrax said:


> Like this?
> 
> View attachment 116770


I have the one like that, and I have the one in a white sheath (which I prefer).


----------



## witchdoctor

ellisr63 said:


> I have the one like that, and I have the one in a white sheath (which I prefer).


I see that wire and it pains me to see a "go big or go home" build thread apparently go home.

Go BIG, complete one of the listening training programs posted here and at least try and upgrade the cables on your mains and CC. Here is a post from a guy to give you some ideas:

http://www.audioaficionado.org/cables-galore/19125-speaker-cable-shootout-results.html

Look at his summary at least.


----------



## NBPk402

witchdoctor said:


> I see that wire and it pains me to see a "go big or go home" build thread apparently go home.
> 
> Go BIG, complete one of the listening training programs posted here and at least try and upgrade the cables on your mains and CC. Here is a post from a guy to give you some ideas:
> 
> http://www.audioaficionado.org/cables-galore/19125-speaker-cable-shootout-results.html
> 
> Look at his summary at least.


I have researched, and I used to be an Audiophile...I know what is needed for cables, and what is not in my setup. No need to continue trying to persuade me to your choices. If you desire to spend the cash to try out different wires so be it. I choose to be happy with what i have.


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## willis7469

this is my junk. 
And these
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003...nana+plugs&dpPl=1&dpID=51hnB+CMwFL&ref=plSrch
Full disclosure!


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## Savjac

Wow I love the blue color, I have never seen it before. :T

So in the spirit of showing our cable, I have happened on to these and in my system they work very well. 
Two 12' nine gauge speaker cables, two 12 gauge speaker cables and 2 sets of one meter interconnects for about $500. This is far and away the most I have ever spent on cables and I like them but will not spend this much again to try other cables. 
I also have in the collection box, 3 different Monoprice cables and interconnects, a couple of the famous Monster, a bunch of Blue Jeans and that is about it. But it gave me a nice group of affordable stuff to listen to and allowed me to pick the one that worked for me in my present system.


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## willis7469

Thanks jack. They're still very supple, after a few years. I just reseated all my connections. Still sound the same. Lol


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## witchdoctor

*Calling All SVS Users*

Here is another outstanding review on SVS Interconnects AND Speaker Cables. 

http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-a...path-rca-and-ultra-speaker-cables-review.html


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## Savjac

willis7469 said:


> Thanks jack. They're still very supple, after a few years. I just reseated all my connections. Still sound the same. Lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are they a bit like the original monster cables in that they are very flexible and easy to place ?
I still love high quality flex cables although the speaker cables I have now are anything but flexible, they do stay in place once they are fitted in the system.


----------



## Savjac

witchdoctor said:


> You need to watch this ASAP:
> 
> https://youtu.be/43mzUfZMSvY


I own the monoprice XLR to RCA cables and I am not fond of them because the xlr end is not very secure and occasionally looses contact with the amp pins and works loose. Their RCA cable ends are great, they fit very snugly and never come loose.

EDIT

I should add that IMO the monoprice cables look great but cause my system to sound a bit bright, dunno why they just do.


----------



## 3dbinCanada

witchdoctor said:


> Well although subjective listening is flawed we can all become better at it according to Harman:
> 
> http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/05/harmans-how-to-listen-new-listener.html
> 
> you can download the program free and give it a whirl here, it is fun:
> 
> http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/2011/01/welcome-to-how-to-listen.html
> 
> once you become a trained listener you won't be perfect but it should help. Harman uses trained listeners at their speaker testing lab. Regretfully few of us have the $$$ to shop for speakers under these conditions or any component so have to rely on what we have, imperfect as it may be. This will get you into the blind listening arena if it is still important:
> 
> http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=271&Itemid=238


Trained listening does help but it doesn't overcome subjective prejudices like blind listening test do. To make an unbiased decision, one has to remove the subjective prejudices.


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## witchdoctor

3dbinCanada said:


> Trained listening does help but it doesn't overcome subjective prejudices like blind listening test do. To make an unbiased decision, one has to remove the subjective prejudices.


I agree 100%. Can you please test some cables using this method and post feedback? Those new SVS Cables seem like a good place to start. Thanks!


----------



## 3dbinCanada

witchdoctor said:


> I agree 100%. Can you please test some cables using this method and post feedback? Those new SVS Cables seem like a good place to start. Thanks!


I don't know why I would. I am happy with the sound of both my systems using 14 and 16 gauge wire made by Phillips and sold at Walmart. 

I know based on real science and not of those quack jobs :coocoo: that either used the wrong model to perform analysis, (aka Nelson Pass and I really wonder why he would purposely choose the wrong model knowing full well that he does know better, and the other authors you suggested that come up with subjective claims based on pseudo science) that cables do NOT impart a sound to the system. Everything about the conduction of electrical signals through conductors is understood down to the atomic level. Yet audiophiles claim that their ears are more sensitive (and measured testing of the sensitivity of human hearing puts its into the 0.5db range of detectable differences) and are able to detect nuances that cannot be measured. I don't know if this sheer arrogance on their part of the audiophile or complete slip on the grasp of reality.


----------



## witchdoctor

3dbinCanada said:


> I don't know why I would. I am happy with the sound of both my systems using 14 and 16 gauge wire made by Phillips and sold at Walmart.
> 
> I know based on real science and not of those quack jobs :coocoo: that either used the wrong model to perform analysis, (aka Nelson Pass and I really wonder why he would purposely choose the wrong model knowing full well that he does know better, and the other authors you suggested that come up with subjective claims based on pseudo science) that cables do NOT impart a sound to the system. Everything about the conduction of electrical signals through conductors is understood down to the atomic level. Yet audiophiles claim that their ears are more sensitive (and measured testing of the sensitivity of human hearing puts its into the 0.5db range of detectable differences) and are able to detect nuances that cannot be measured. I don't know if this sheer arrogance on their part of the audiophile or complete slip on the grasp of reality.


You seem to be happy then. The reason you would test new cables is to improve your system. What is the point of knowing how to test if you don't bother to expand your experience? Are you still miffed?You make a lot of claims about electrical signals so post something you tested already.


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## Savjac

3dbinCanada said:


> I don't know why I would. I am happy with the sound of both my systems using 14 and 16 gauge wire made by Phillips and sold at Walmart.
> 
> I don't know if this sheer arrogance on their part of the audiophile or complete slip on the grasp of reality.


I am most happy you are good to go with the sound of the wire you have chosen. May I ask what about them makes you happy and as compared to what ?

Why would anyone choose to use the word arrogance and/or slipping from reality when it comes to preferences ? I think the arrogance lies in the essence of someone trying to convince others of something other than what audiophiles deeply believe. It really hurts no one if others wish to spend their life living what they believe irrespective of your measurements. We will never be able to measure taste as each person sees it. Can anyone measure what is the proper flavor of lasagna ? Or beer or wine or Chevy vs Ford, Democrat vs Republican, and on and on. Cant be done.
So let us live in the world of the unprovable belief and be done with it, i am sure you will have much less aggravation.

I used to think i was an audiophile but really I am not. I enjoy music and movies in my room and I dial in the sound of the system to fit my personal taste....there you have it.


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## lovinthehd

Absolutely. If it makes you happy supporting the cable charlatans, despite all proof to the contrary except your poor testing methods, and you feel they deserve to be paid for such....go for it! Placebos can work quite well for some people apparently. If you've dialed in your room acoustically, have the best speakers and all the electronics you need to source the content that makes you happy, what else is there beyond cables? Lifters? Tibetan bowls? Cryogenic treatments? Green felt pens? The possibilities!


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## Savjac

lovinthehd said:


> Absolutely. If it makes you happy supporting the cable charlatans, despite all proof to the contrary except your poor testing methods, and you feel they deserve to be paid for such....go for it! Placebos can work quite well for some people apparently. If you've dialed in your room acoustically, have the best speakers and all the electronics you need to source the content that makes you happy, what else is there beyond cables? Lifters? Tibetan bowls? Cryogenic treatments? Green felt pens? The possibilities!


I am truly sorry you have posted this with words like charlatans and placebos. Because some folks do not believe does not make the others wrong. Why one group chooses one path while another group chooses a separate path only makes is human. So if you have not walked the other path your opinion is of no value beyond apparently making you happy to step on the other fine folks.


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## NBPk402

witchdoctor said:


> You seem to be happy then. The reason you would test new cables is to improve your system. What is the point of knowing how to test if you don't bother to expand your experience? Are you still miffed?You make a lot of claims about electrical signals so post something you tested already.


Why are you so intent on pushing people to try other cables? If a person bought their setup and likes it, let it be. Just because you believe a cable makes a difference doesn't mean others have to believe it, or does it mean that it does make a difference. Not to mention even wanting to play with swapping cables. Everyone has their own opinion...doesn't mean one is correct or the other is wrong. I am a firm believer that if a cable is well made, and I like it...that is all that matters to me. You appear to believe cables make a difference, and that is your opinion, and right, but that doesn't mean you should go around pushing people to try out new cables if they don't want to. If you want to test them and post the results...you should do so. Remember this is a hobby we all enjoy, and some desire to mod their equipment to their liking, and others just like the way it sounds without modding.


----------



## lovinthehd

Savjac said:


> I am truly sorry you have posted this with words like charlatans and placebos. Because some folks do not believe does not make the others wrong. Why one group chooses one path while another group chooses a separate path only makes is human. So if you have not walked the other path your opinion is of no value beyond apparently making you happy to step on the other fine folks.



Oh I tried some of the high zoot cable stuff way back....30 some odd years ago. Made no difference. YMMV. In my personal opinion Bill Low is portraying items that do not stand up to real world scrutiny and any reasonable person would see this beyond doubt. Anyone buying his $13000 hdmi cable is buying a placebo. Belief is more along the lines of the placebo bit. Audiophilia has a lot of strange beliefs and pseudo science, and cables is where most of that resides....IMO.


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## witchdoctor

_


ellisr63 said:



Why are you so intent on pushing people to try other cables?

Click to expand...

_


ellisr63 said:


> I invite people to audition cables risk free in their home and post the results here. I have posted white papers, test results, videos, reviews etc. primarily to give fellow shacksters ideas of how to begin the auditioning process for themselves. This is a cable thread after all right? As to why anyone should bother testing cables my own experience was similar to Elison Smith's in this thread below. If this experience can be replicated by you or anyone else here I would feel like I made a positive contribution to this thread:
> 
> http://www.stereophile.com/content/mapleshade-speaker-cables
> 
> I don't advocate anyone buying anything, just testing on their own under risk free conditions.


----------



## willis7469

lovinthehd said:


> Oh I tried some of the high zoot cable stuff way back....30 some odd years ago. Made no difference. YMMV. In my personal opinion Bill Low is portraying items that do not stand up to real world scrutiny and any reasonable person would see this beyond doubt. Anyone buying his $13000 hdmi cable is buying a placebo. Belief is more along the lines of the placebo bit. Audiophilia has a lot of strange beliefs and pseudo science, and cables is where most of that resides....IMO..



Wow! 13g's on an hdmi cable!!! Whoever sells that should be ashamed, embarrassed and made to stand on the side of the road wearing only an hdmi cable. What a piece of garbage. 


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## Savjac

Yeah even a guy like me tends to wonder where the law of diminishing returns tends to go back on itself. I cannot conceive of what they could do to a cable to make it worth that much but then again I cannot see why someone would pay $75000 for an suv from GM either. 
I am so complex that I dont even understand myself. :explode:


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## willis7469

Savjac said:


> Yeah even a guy like me tends to wonder where the law of diminishing returns tends to go back on itself. I cannot conceive of what they could do to a cable to make it worth that much but then again I cannot see why someone would pay $75000 for an suv from GM either.
> 
> I am so complex that I dont even understand myself. :explode:



I don't mind paying a premium for some things. HDMI works, or it doesn't. Plain and simple. 20 bucks is about the limit for hdmi cable needs. (Long runs notwithstanding). 


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## lovinthehd

willis7469 said:


> I don't mind paying a premium for some things. HDMI works, or it doesn't. Plain and simple. 20 bucks is about the limit for hdmi cable needs. (Long runs notwithstanding).


Me either. Just not wire. HDMI is one cable I'll buy rather than build, tho. Most expensive one I bought was a 25' long one so my laptop could connect to my avr comfortably from my seat when I wanted to ($12 on Amazon right now). Mediabridge brand. Airier than airy highs, solid tight massive bass, vivid colors and all that jazz. The best hdmi 1.4 can handle. Awesome stuff.


----------



## 3dbinCanada

witchdoctor said:


> You seem to be happy then. The reason you would test new cables is to improve your system. What is the point of knowing how to test if you don't bother to expand your experience? Are you still miffed?You make a lot of claims about electrical signals so post something you tested already.


You're not getting it. They don't improve sound. I'd would be far better served by either changing the speakers or alter the room's acoustics but since I'm happy, I won't.


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## witchdoctor

3dbinCanada said:


> You're not getting it. They don't improve sound. I'd would be far better served by either changing the speakers or alter the room's acoustics but since I'm happy, I won't.


It must be a lot of people not getting it:

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=disconnect&x=/html&q=cable+shootout

Nearly every cable shootout posted has clear winners and you appear to be at a point where you just can't detect improvements. No sweat, just take one of those listening training programs and then apply some of your testing skills.

Can the entire Greater South Bay Audio Society be wrong?

http://marigoaudio.com/digital-cable-shoot-out/


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## 3dbinCanada

witchdoctor said:


> It must be a lot of people not getting it:
> 
> https://duckduckgo.com/?t=disconnect&x=/html&q=cable+shootout
> 
> Nearly every cable shootout posted has clear winners and you appear to be at a point where you just can't detect improvements. No sweat, just take one of those listening training programs and then apply some of your testing skills.
> 
> Can the entire Greater South Bay Audio Society be wrong?
> 
> http://marigoaudio.com/digital-cable-shoot-out/


In one simple word YES


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## witchdoctor

3dbinCanada said:


> In one simple word YES



Well until you produce some of your own test results I hope you don't mind if I agree with the audio society. :smile:


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## tonyvdb

witchdoctor said:


> Can the entire Greater South Bay Audio Society be wrong?
> 
> http://marigoaudio.com/digital-cable-shoot-out/


There is a sucker born every minute, these companies would not be making them if people wouldent fall for this scam all the time.


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## willis7469

3dbinCanada said:


> In one simple word YES



Yep


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## witchdoctor

tonyvdb said:


> There is a sucker born every minut, these companies would not be making them if people wouldent fall for this scam all the time.


If you are saying the entire audio society is a bunch of suckers where is your data proving it? You would have to do some type of testing on the same cables they tested and prove they are wrong.
I think you telling people that this is a scam while providing 0 data proves you are a victim of the placebo effect yourself. You "believe" all cables are scandalous therefore you can't hear any improvements. 
i don't advocate cables, speakers, or anything. I only advocate testing yourself in your own home under risk free conditions. For you to disagree and never test anything is simply limiting your own enjoyment of this hobby. Now if you have actually tested a cable please post what cable, what the associated equipment was and your experience. Just ranting all of this is bad or all of that is bad isn't very helpful.

I recommend you read this as a starting point to being open minded about trying new cables. The reviewer actually started his process from pretty much the same place you are at now, skeptical if I am not mistaken. You can actually try them risk free and post about your experience:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue7/signal.htm


----------



## robbo266317

Sorry, but he lost me at:



> Unfortunately, cables are difficult to measure in any informative way, and specimens that measure identically often sound very different.


Cables are not difficult to measure, and can be measured very precisely at _any_ frequency!

This is the classic F.U.D. that salespeople sprout because the general populace has not studied Electrical Engineering. 
Furthermore, he does not give examples of which cables measure identical, yet sound different, so we cannot actually verify his claims. 

I have emailed asking for more details.


----------



## willis7469

lovinthehd said:


> Me either. Just not wire. HDMI is one cable I'll buy rather than build, tho. Most expensive one I bought was a 25' long one so my laptop could connect to my avr comfortably from my seat when I wanted to ($12 on Amazon right now). Mediabridge brand. Airier than airy highs, solid tight massive bass, vivid colors and all that jazz. The best hdmi 1.4 can handle. Awesome stuff.



I've used a few mediabridge hdmi cables. They've all worked great. Actually they made such a difference I had to recalibrate my tv! And receiver. Crazy right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## willis7469

robbo266317 said:


> Sorry, but he lost me at:
> 
> 
> 
> Cables are not difficult to measure, and can be measured very precisely at _any_ frequency!
> 
> This is the classic F.U.D. that salespeople sprout because the general populace has not studied Electrical Engineering.
> Furthermore, he does not give examples of which cables measure identical, yet sound different, so we cannot actually verify his claims.
> 
> I will see if they have a contact us section and ask this question.
> View attachment 116810



Can't wait for this Bill. 


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## witchdoctor

*Played Out*

Thanks everyone for your interest in my posts. I started a new thread on The Real Scam in audio which is also about cables (but cables are not the scam). I am done with this thread. if you don't believe in the in home audition philosophy I have been discussing here my new thread will probably get you miffed, better to avoid it. Thanks:smile:


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## witchdoctor

robbo266317 said:


> Sorry, but he lost me at:
> 
> 
> 
> Cables are not difficult to measure, and can be measured very precisely at _any_ frequency!
> 
> This is the classic F.U.D. that salespeople sprout because the general populace has not studied Electrical Engineering.
> Furthermore, he does not give examples of which cables measure identical, yet sound different, so we cannot actually verify his claims.
> 
> I have emailed asking for more details.
> View attachment 116810


Thanks, I will make sure to respond when you hear back and appreciate your due diligence.


----------



## 3dbinCanada

Savjac said:


> I am most happy you are good to go with the sound of the wire you have chosen. May I ask what about them makes you happy and as compared to what ?


I understand the science and the physics holding a BSc in Electrical Engineering. I know cables don't make a difference in sound unless the wire gauge is too thin for the intended run. The latter is not my arguement. 



Savjac said:


> Why would anyone choose to use the word arrogance and/or slipping from reality when it comes to preferences ? I think the arrogance lies in the essence of someone trying to convince others of something other than what audiophiles deeply believe. It really hurts no one if others wish to spend their life living what they believe irrespective of your measurements. We will never be able to measure taste as each person sees it. Can anyone measure what is the proper flavor of lasagna ? Or beer or wine or Chevy vs Ford, Democrat vs Republican, and on and on. Cant be done.
> So let us live in the world of the unprovable belief and be done with it, i am sure you will have much less aggravation.


Don't confuse subjective tastes in food with engineering principals. That analogy doesn't work. Like I said, flawed subjective tests is no way in ascertaining with any degree of certainty whether or not cables impart a sound. Just saying.


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## Savjac

Ok fine, I will concentrate on new inventions then.....

Check out what else my cable risers can do. They make my phone sound at least a 72.9% better than before.


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## willis7469

Wow! Those are much more versatile than I ever thought!!!


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## nova

Maybe I'm just a little dense but, if high end cables make a difference then it should be very easy to measure the audible changes. No? 

I mean if you add bass traps or other acoustic treatments you can measure the audible changes. Same with different speakers.


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## Savjac

willis7469 said:


> Wow! Those are much more versatile than I ever thought!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Indeed, now you see I can use my brain for much more useful things. I think I can use these as speaker stands as well. I will jump right on it.:heehee:


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## Savjac

3dbinCanada said:


> I understand the science and the physics holding a BSc in Electrical Engineering. I know cables don't make a difference in sound unless the wire gauge is too thin for the intended run. The latter is not my arguement.


This raises a good question, what is too thin for an average run, say 10 feet using a high powered amp ? This is not a trick question, I would like to hear what you offer.


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## NBPk402

nova said:


> Maybe I'm just a little dense but, if high end cables make a difference then it should be very easy to measure the audible changes. No?
> 
> I mean if you add bass traps or other acoustic treatments you can measure the audible changes. Same with different speakers.


I agree. I went to a Local High End Used Equipment store a while back...The owner had Mark Levinson equipment on display with some B&W speakers with some exotic cables. I asked him what he thought about exotic cables and he said he would never buy exotic cables. He said that all you needed was a good quality cable, and the reason he had the exotic cables is they cost him nothing.


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## 3dbinCanada

I like it. Do you think it will work on a Samsung tablet?


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## NBPk402

3dbinCanada said:


> I like it. Do you think it will work on a Samsung tablet?


I purchased one of these for our Android phones, and tablets, and it is nice to put on the countertop.
http://www.amazon.com/Anker-Multi-A...1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage


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## 3dbinCanada

Savjac said:


> This raises a good question, what is too thin for an average run, say 10 feet using a high powered amp ? This is not a trick question, I would like to hear what you offer.


I use this as my guide. If you are in doubt, always go thicker..

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge


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## Savjac

3dbinCanada said:


> I use this as my guide. If you are in doubt, always go thicker..
> 
> http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge


Got it thanks. I see Gene does not recommend 18 gauge cables but does like blue jeans 10 gauge and the 4 cable per side version.
I use the Blue Jeans 10 cable on occasion as well and as a matter of fact was my reference for years.


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## Savjac

3dbinCanada said:


> I like it. Do you think it will work on a Samsung tablet?


Absolutely, was thinking of making one for my ipad and saving some money. I think Samsung would be ok too as long as neither manufacturer sues me. :blink:


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## Philm63

Savjac said:


> Absolutely, was thinking of making one for my ipad and saving some money. I think Samsung would be ok too as long as neither manufacturer sues me.


Just don't claim any unrealistic audio performance improvements unless you're willing to show some data... (sorry, couldn't contain myself) >


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## Savjac

Philm63 said:


> Just don't claim any unrealistic audio performance improvements unless you're willing to show some data... (sorry, couldn't contain myself) >


Most excellent advice, I shall cut back on that post haste. :rofl:


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## robbo266317

Well I received a reply from the article that was posted earlier



> Hi Bill,
> 
> Thank you for your interest. I don't think Tom was referring to any specific cables from us, but rather making a general statement. He did not mention any measurement as a part of his feedback at the time......
> 
> Thanks,
> Frank


So his comments have no basis in reality as he wasn't speaking about any particular cables.


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## chashint

I like the rambling musings, but gotta ask.....
Are you doing okay Savjac, or do we need to send out a search party?


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## lovinthehd

Savjac said:


> Herein is A long and useless musing that makes no sense but affords the reader the opportunity to realize that very little in the subject makes any sense and as such a double negative obviously does make sense….Or so it seems
> 
> I have been giving this issue some serious thought over the last couple days while traveling about the Midwestern section of the United States, and I think I have come up with a reasonable analogy regarding the size and cost of audio cable. I think I will touch on interconnects and power cables rather than speaker wire cable.
> 
> I think we need to look at where most of this cabling is manufactured and the local environments wherein the people that manufacture these items reside. It is most probable we can agree that the vast majority of these products are manufactured on another continent in a country called China. Not China is a really big country with lots and lots of citizens living therein. For unknown millennia the wonderful and talented Chinese people lived a very moderate life sticking to their smallish towns and simple lifestyle. We might assume possibly incorrectly that these were the towns and peoples responsible for such wonderful cables from RadioShack, simple very inexpensive and semi-well built. As China has grown over recent years people have moved to large cities to the point of overcrowding and are now working in giant factories that use computer guided machinery to wind the individual's ran use of copper or faux copper in these wires which are then covered in some sort of fabric core PVC terminated on either end probably by hand and then sent on to the United States as a final product with the labels being individually place depending on who orders the cable okay ? Now with the cities growing in population at an alarming rate we also note that some of the roads that run to and from the factories are getting larger and larger to the point where I have recently seen 20 to 40 lanes of traffic moving through the countryside entering the city were in the traffic lanes are then reduced to four lanes. So if we were to try and find an analogy here it would be my belief that though people of China are being asked to manufacture cabling that is made up of billions and billions of stars stuff (akin to their population) placed into large cauldrons, heated, poor into large ingots smashed about and finally shaped in the form of copper rod in coil form and then run through numerous dies so that they can bring down the copper thickness to a manageable gauge. The thinner the gauge the more numerous dies it has to go through and as such this would raise the price by a a dime or to a pound which would of course translate into bigger bucks for the end user. Wire that remains a bit larger goes through fewer dies and as such makes up fewer strands per pound which translations to cheaper wire for the end-user. Now like their highways they take a bazillion of these strands of wire and with large pieces of machinery they wrap this wire in various configuration's which will then be as mentioned above wrapped in some form of big-name outerwear. This grouping of wires of them be terminated sometimes well sometimes not so well to whatever and conductor is needed. So as you see what we have is a country with billions of people making billions of strands of wire from a possibly questionable source of star stuff and then these billions of strands of wire are reduced to one and connector similar to their highways
> if you're following you may now come to up possibly correct ending here in that once the consignees wire has been made, woven, placed beneath some fancy outer wrapper and terminated in some form of plug ranging from crummy to magnificent the marketing personnel come in and might throw in a bit of height depending upon what they feel they wish to sell these products at. These are not Chinese marketing people...no way, they are for the most so-called high-end companies that will then attach a spiffy name to these cables depending upon again how much they wish to charge with the word AUDIOPHILE having the war ability to raise the price monumentally even though some of this would've actually gone to RadioShack. It would appear that the middle ground cable which is made of several good copper strands wrapped in whatever you want appears to be the best plan. We don't nee gazillions of secretly interwoven questionablely manufactured copper colored wire in 40 Lanes Hwy. size wrappers to steer us away from the real deal.
> 
> Lastly we must consider that since our theoretical wire is as Carl Sagan presented constructed of space stuff it must have been Crile treated prior to being manufactured by us mere humans. Spaces cold and as such such space stuff must be cold as well.
> 
> Or….I could be wrong.


TLNR .....how about some paragraphs?


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## Savjac

chashint said:


> I like the rambling musings, but gotta ask.....
> Are you doing okay Savjac, or do we need to send out a search party?


I guess I was trying to demonstrate, in an odd sort of way that my dickensian entry makes no more sense than a good many of the entries that preclude me and trying to understand what I wrote is just as unfulfilling. The good news is I did not waste hundreds of posts trying to make everyone believe I am nuts, As Chas points out in the very first entry after mine that I seem to be missing in action and he was willing to send out a search party. That is cool. 

So pay no attention to my post, and believe what you feel to be correct, I sure do and my beliefs cannot be found in my missive. 
Thanks for kind of reading tho, I guess it raised a brow or two. :devil:


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## Savjac

lovinthehd said:


> TLNR .....how about some paragraphs?


I write for a living so I have a good idea of where paragraphs go, but you could not know that I suppose unless you knew me.

I was just trash talking and the format of my mind spill really did not matter. You are spot on in your TLDNR though, no one should :rofl:


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## J&D

Every instance of a cable thread only brings me back to my days of scrapping many a mile of copper encased titanium/niobium superconductor wire back in my medical imaging days. Back then we were simply looking for some quick extra beer money and scrapping it was the best way to go. Man we missed out on a major opportunity to market that stuff done up as high-end interconnects to the audiophile community. Could even have extolled the ear pleasing virtues of its being completely submerged in liquid helium for no less than 5 years like aging a fine Cabernet Sauvignon. Bet we could have retired by now.


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## lovinthehd

J&D said:


> Every instance of a cable thread only brings me back to my days of scrapping many a mile of copper encased titanium/niobium superconductor wire back in my medical imaging days. Back then we were simply looking for some quick extra beer money and scrapping it was the best way to go. Man we missed out on a major opportunity to market that stuff done up as high-end interconnects to the audiophile community. Could even have extolled the ear pleasing virtues of its being completely submerged in liquid helium for no less than 5 years like aging a fine Cabernet Sauvignon. Bet we could have retired by now.


Hindsight isn't a very good investment model....unfortunately 

I wish I were callous enough to be a cable charlatan.....ah, not really.


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## chashint

Getting away with selling material a person is in position to "scrap" is probably not the best business model either.


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## 3dbinCanada

chashint said:


> Getting away with selling material a person is in position to "scrap" is probably not the best business model either.


Ordinarily I would agree but in the land of magic and pixie dust and esoteric high end cables and interconnects...they would have been a multi miliionaire..


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## J&D

chashint said:


> Getting away with selling material a person is in position to "scrap" is probably not the best business model either.


My point was that this practice has been rampant in the audio industry for decades and the fact that there are cable companies out there still getting fat on these practices proves the business model not only works but can make you rich.


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## chashint

My point was material was scrapped and sold for personal gain.


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## J&D

chashint said:


> My point was material was scrapped and sold for personal gain.


So what's the point again? Are you disappointed that we did not make audio cables out of it or that we recycled the material rather than dumping it in a landfill....


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## DqMcClain

chashint said:


> My point was material was scrapped and sold for personal gain.


There's a big difference between ripping cabling (or other material) out of an installation that is currently in use and turning into personal profit by some means and separating cabling (or other material) out of an installation that is being replaced and turning it into personal profit. On more occasions than can be counted, when a large piece of equipment (like an MRI machine) or a large system of components (like 10 or 15 racks of SCR Dimmers) is being removed and replaced with newer/better/more equipment, the associated cabling is replaced with it. 

*Cases in point:*

_Exhibit A_ My theater ripped out 864 dimmers and 96 relays, piled them on a pallet, and sent them to another show using the same make and model dimmers/relays. These were replaced with dimmers/relays from another manufacturer. The company that quoted the installation job (we're not dumb enough to do that ourselves) factored in all the #0ga copper required to move power from the main feed to each dimmer, and specified in their contract that we were responsible for the removal of _everything_ downstream of the main feed. That meant about 150lbs of #0ga copper that was already installed was removed, boxed, and tagged for disposal. Knowing that the next step in that procedure was dumping all that copper in the trash, we made it disappear to a local recycling center. Profit was made, the contract was honored to the letter, and the new system is functioning as designed. 

_Exhibit B_ There was a fire in a parking garage which resulted in minimal damage to the structure, vehicles, and humans. As part of the administrative fallout, it came down from on high that it was no longer acceptable to store equipment, supplies, consumables, or stock in the parking garage AND that all such items that were stored in the garage at the time of the fire were to be disposed of. In the case of paint (hundreds of gallons of paint), it is conceivable (though unlikely) that smoke could have tainted the paint. But there was also a good rack with several tons of steel stock, all with material certifications, that was nowhere near the fire or smoke. But, given the nature of the orders and the scrutiny under which those orders were executed, every single inch of that steel was fork-lifted into a dumpster, and hauled off to a landfill. No questions asked, no inspections for damage... nothing. Just tons and tons of perfectly good steel thrown directly in the trash. 


So... which is the greater evil? Taking the opportunity that presented itself in the form of redirecting a recyclable commodity, or throwing said recyclable commodity into a landfill? As far as I'm concerned, we're comparing two different shades of grey that are not too far from each other, and both somewhere near the middle. I personally don't have a problem with the practice of recycling for personal gain as long as it doesn't increase the cost of a project, or impede the functionality of a system. Some people take the practice too far, others prohibit it to the point of lunacy.


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