# RVA theater construction...



## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

just wanted to say HELLO to all the members on this forum. I'm obviously new to the forum but will start posting my project in the near future. I've been reading this board for quite some time but finally have moved into my new house and have started the process of building our newest home theater. I look forward to speaking with y'all and hope I can help others along the way.


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

Welcome to the Shack!


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

Thank you. I look forward to putting this project up and getting some input. We've done a done of research but there are some items that we could really use some advice on. I'm hoping to get these construction images up soon. Again thanks!


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

That's great. These builds are fun. You'll get a lot of input from the group


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

yeah I really do enjoy "most" of the buildout process. Especially hearing some of the great ideas from forums like this. Just amazing work people have done. Plus the accomplishment at the end of the day is awesome.


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

Are you the owner of the soundproofing company? I have a subscription to "recording magazine" and love it. Reading about the "green glue" solutions was just amazing. My brother used in to help noise leakage through a small wall between his live and control room in his project studio room. He goes on and on about it to this day.


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

I think this will be post 5 and I can add all my images now to my posts and preview...I think.


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

Wow..where to start? 
Sorry if this is too long...
My wife and I moved into our new house 2 months ago and have started construction on our dream theater/basement. We've lived in Richmond, VA for over 10 years in both of our first houses that didn't include a basement. We both grew up living with basements but it took this long to reach this goal. In our last home we converted a room into a theater like many people have done and it worked really well for us. We have 6 Berkline chairs and an Epson Powerlite 8100 projector that we are bringing with us.

Our basement has a main room that is about 19' x 50' with a "morning room" kickout that is another 20'x10'. I'm going to try and post images but forgive me if they don't get attached correctly. We have decided to go with a little different setup than most in that we wanted our room to "breathe" and stay big feeling and large while using it for multiple events. Sporting events where we can use the two screens and entertainment area but then we can isolate the theater itself with some "HEAVY" drapes or blockout blinds at the bar area between the rooms. We are thinking of making it kinda like the old concert hall curtains that are weighted and ultra thick and can be tied up to look like a stage area or something. Its an idea at least.

Directly above our main room and part of our theater is our kitchen which has ceramic tile. There were no pre-construction features used to help isolate sound from the downstairs. In fact, due to money and versatility we had the basement left as an unfinished room. My first concern comes from the sound isolation. I play music and have constructed a 38x24 project recording studio in our previous home but that facility was all one floor and I didn't have to worry about "little feet" above me stopping or running on such a hard surface. We just installed over 30 - 60 watt recessed lights that might come back to haunt me due to the holes created in the ceiling drywall. I'm debating on a couple of options and would love to hear the pro's and con's:
1. On the basement ceiling insulate with Owens corning R-21 insulation, add RC-8 Resilient channel, 5/8" drywall, greenglue, and a 1/2" layer.
2. On the basement ceiling insulate with Owens corning R-21 insulation, add RC-8 Resilient channel, and 5/8" quietrock
3. Rip up the upstairs and install a floating floor to disconnect the upstairs from downstairs.

Obviously #3 is MAJOR MAJOR work and something I don't really plan on doing but I wanted to throw it out there to see what opinions people have. #2 sounds like a great and easier option but in this area the quietrock is $100 per 4x8 sheet compared to $8 for regular 5/8" drywall. Given I need nearly 40 sheets that is a HUGE difference in price and from the values I don't know if I see that big of a difference in decibel reduction.

I'll be interested to hear if either #1 or #2 work anyway since the source of noise upstairs won't be directly fixed before travelling through the floor joists. I'm hoping that the RC-8 will work to disconnect the ceiling even though it won't be placed facing the noise source. Any opinions here?

Our basement has 8'11" ceiling heights and the walls are mostly poured concrete walls. I've went in already and built 2x4 stud walls about 3 to 4" from the concrete walls and built the soffits around all the utilities.

The utilities of concern have been the two steel beams, gas line, sanitary drain line, water lines, and ductwork.

HVAC
Our HVAC system was sized to handle the entire basement so we have followed the plans for the builders finished basement and placed those in the locations we could fit trying to keep enough space open to put the recessed lights. My main concern with the HVAC is that the first floor and basement are tied to the same zone. I know from the old house the projector really puts off some heat and given all the lights and people downstairs it could get hot quickly. Granted we put just about everything on separate 3 way switches so turning things on and off in different areas is pretty flexible. Any help on possible venting the projector through the wall and into our garage would be very helpful.

Lighting / Electrical
Everything was run as 12/2 or 12/3 wire and 20 amp circuits. I'm think Im now at over 1000' linear feet of wire but I think we are just about done with the exception of a couple of outlets that I'm debating on where to place. Again we have around 34 recessed lights at 60 watts. We also are adding sconce lights on all the wall as well as 3 pendulum lights at the bar area and some rope lighting for effect in the bar and theater areas. My only concern here is all those holes in the drywall that will let sound come through from the upstairs.

Walls
I built 2x4 walls just outside all the concrete poured walls and made sure to use pressure treated material on anything that touched the concrete. Since everything is concrete walls (no really worry about noise leaving the house or outside) and I'm not so concerned about noise travelling UPSTAIRS I'm just planning on using 5/8" drywall on the walls and insulate all the walls with Owens Corning R-19. With exception of the stairs since I do realize that this area will be a direct access point to the upstairs. I'm planning on using the same typical for the ceiling. studs>insulation>RC-8>5/8" drywall>greenglue>1/2"drywall

Projector
I'm a little nervous that because there will be more light for most BIG events in the basement that the Epson Powerlite 8100 might not be the right projector for our needs. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. I could use this one for the secondary projector and get a better unit for the theater. 

Screens
I'll be honest I'm a little over my head on this topic. I am planning for a 120 inch screen in the theater room and a 96" screen in the main room on the stairs. I have about 11 to 12 ft to the first row of chairs and about 16 feet to the back row of chairs. The last screen was purchased at SamsClub for $100 and was manual. I'm planning on at least running power to make this automated if I want to, but I've seen some of the Da-lite screens at shops and they do look awesome. I just don't know whether to get "gain" or not, gray, white, black, fixed, manual, automated??? I'm hoping for some serious help here.

Theater Riser
I just built a 4x6 riser out of 2x8's @ 2' O.C. and 3/4" OSB. The rise is about 8" total in height but I might have to add another layer of 1/2" Moisture resistent OSB on the bottom touching the concrete since I blanked out and didn't built it out of pressure treated material. I added braces at 2' inside as well but wasn't sure if I should go ahead and insulate this area as well to help control the low end in the room. I don't want to have a nice bass boom box in the back of the room??

Speaker Placement
I'm planning on using a 7.1 system but was interested in hearing whether anyone uses 2 subs or not? Is there a huge benefit and if so, then where would you suggest I place them in this room? The room isn't terribly large but maybe I could redo the walls and place them in the walls??

Wiring
I'm planning on using 14 gauge wire for my speakers but not really sure if that is the best way to go. Right now I just have basic Klipsche speaker set from BestBuy with a single subwoofer. I'm also though trying to figure a way to incorporate some other ceiling speakers and pump the sound from the amps into the other rooms if there is a big event and I want both screens playing the same thing and everybody together. Especially at the bar area and where the couches are located. It would just be something fairly simple that is tied into the amp but have a wall on and off knob or something. I've love to go RF frequency on my lights and everything but am just way over my head on that. I was told to run Cat5 wire to all my light switches if I ever wanted to think about RF control? Is this correct? To the projector we were going to run 2 HDMI cables, Component, RCA, and DVI just to have the connections. We are running a 1-1/4" conduit from the equipment to the projector locations in case we want to upgrade in the future which i'm sure will happen sooner rather than later. We cut two different 1-1/2" holes to the projector locations to make this possible. Is there anything else that I can do with wiring? I've seen racks and racks of wiring and harnesses all over the place but I'm not quite sure what everyone is running in their racks.

Acoustics
Given these terrible soffits in the front of the room above where the screen is to be I'm a little nervous about the potential standing waves from this room. I'd love to hear some suggestions on the acoustics given I was planning on putting up memorabilia on the walls along with the sconce lights. I've built bass traps in the walls before as well as ceiling so I know it can be done but would be nice to hear opinions before I get too far. In my studio I was just starting out with the whole acoustics stuff. I basically learned by "blind luck" but would like to make it better this time around.

Well thats it for now. I'm hoping the pictures post and would love to hear from everyone. Thanks in advance.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

The pics you posted don't scale very well. Any chance of pasting in just a snapshot of the theater area in general so we can see better along with dimensions?

Welcome to the madness.

Bryan


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks so much. Yeah this is certainly MADNESS, but I love it. I've got a ton of questions but to start off with I'm wondering about my riser. I'm finishing it today but I was braindead when I initially started and didn't use pressure treated wood like I did with the baseplates on all my walls. I'm thinking in order to keep away from creating some bandpass box under the seats that I should fill the voids in the riser with R-30 insulation. Those will fill the 2x8's pretty well. However if I do put insulation on bare concrete floor this might be a moisture issue. 

I was debating about putting a layer of 3/4" moisture controlling OSB down on the entire basement floor so I can later add real hardwood floors. Can anyone tell me if this is a wise decision? I'd rather not put down the engineered wood floors as our experience is they are much easier to scrape and scratch than real hardwood floors. I'm planning on using carpet primarily in the Theater room but would think a nice layer of OSB on the floor would make things a little less hard and warmer on the toes/feet.

Any suggestions on the moisture controlled materials would be great. I foudn something from Advantech that has a 50yr warranty and isn't out of control expensive.

I would love to hear comments about the other questions too but hopefully this is a starting point. Thanks again in advance.


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

To help visualize the room. If you go back to the last two pictures of the "actual construction" that I initially posted. The second to last picture is looking from the halfwall towards the screen. The last picture is looking towards the backwall from the screen. Hope this helps.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

The open wall on one side of the theater is really not a good thing to do. You really want to maintain left to right symmetry in the space. If the idea is to leave it more open to the rest of the room, I would turn the room 90 degrees and have the opening (or no wall at all) behind you rather than to one side.

Bryan


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## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

RVAtheater said:


> The utilities of concern have been the two steel beams, gas line, sanitary drain line, water lines, and ductwork.


If any piping passes above or inside walls around the HT room, you should check for noise (i.e., ask wife to go around house and turn on showers and sinks and flush toilets while you listen in the basement). Pipes can be very noisy (esp. PVC) but can be treated easily before you cover everything up. Refrigerant piping for your HVAC unit can also be noisy - force the unit into cooling mode for a couple minutes (not too long, don't want to freeze the coil) and check those also.



RVAtheater said:


> HVAC
> Our HVAC system was sized to handle the entire basement so we have followed the plans for the builders finished basement and placed those in the locations we could fit trying to keep enough space open to put the recessed lights. My main concern with the HVAC is that the first floor and basement are tied to the same zone. I know from the old house the projector really puts off some heat and given all the lights and people downstairs it could get hot quickly. Granted we put just about everything on separate 3 way switches so turning things on and off in different areas is pretty flexible. Any help on possible venting the projector through the wall and into our garage would be very helpful.


I highly recommend you do not vent to the garage for a couple of reasons. One, there is probably a fire-rated separation between the garage and the rest of the house which you'll compromise by poking a hole through it (can protect with a fire damper, but that should be done by a pro = $$). Two, any openings into the garage provide a potential path for carbon monoxide and other vehicle exhaust products into the living area. You can mitigate this, too, but not worth it IMO. 

Honestly, I don't see your projector alone breaking the bank WRT HVAC performance. That said, you need to be sure you have enough capacity to handle your needs for the basement (including many people, some lights on, and AV equipment loads). Did the contractor size the system based on a "typical" basement, or your specific criteria?

Even if you have enough, my biggest concern is your zoning. Having main floor and basement on same zone is not uncommon but is not the best approach esp. if the basement is going to be used to entertain large groups of people. You can have times when the main floor is calling for minimal cooling (or worse, heating) but you are hosting a 6-hour-long Super Bowl party or a day-long movie marathon and need cooling in your HT room. If you're really concerned you should get some prices to sub-zone the system or add a supplemental ductless split system. 



RVAtheater said:


> Lighting / Electrical
> Everything was run as 12/2 or 12/3 wire and 20 amp circuits. I'm think Im now at over 1000' linear feet of wire but I think we are just about done with the exception of a couple of outlets that I'm debating on where to place. Again we have around 34 recessed lights at 60 watts. We also are adding sconce lights on all the wall as well as 3 pendulum lights at the bar area and some rope lighting for effect in the bar and theater areas. My only concern here is all those holes in the drywall that will let sound come through from the upstairs.


As a point of interest (may be important depending on what treatment solution is offered), are these downlights IC-rated (Insulation Contact rated)? 



RVAtheater said:


> Projector
> I'm a little nervous that because there will be more light for most BIG events in the basement that the Epson Powerlite 8100 might not be the right projector for our needs. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. I could use this one for the secondary projector and get a better unit for the theater.
> 
> Screens
> I'll be honest I'm a little over my head on this topic. I am planning for a 120 inch screen in the theater room and a 96" screen in the main room on the stairs. I have about 11 to 12 ft to the first row of chairs and about 16 feet to the back row of chairs. The last screen was purchased at SamsClub for $100 and was manual. I'm planning on at least running power to make this automated if I want to, but I've seen some of the Da-lite screens at shops and they do look awesome. I just don't know whether to get "gain" or not, gray, white, black, fixed, manual, automated??? I'm hoping for some serious help here.


Screen size seems OK based on the room dimensions and seating distances. The projector may work but it looks borderline if you're going to need some ambient lighting which means a grey screen is a must. That said, if you aready have one you should try it and only replace if necessary. 

One that subject, you might consider doing a DIY painted screen. It is very inexpensive (whole project for less than $100); you can make any size, shape, and color (white, grey, reflective, non-reflective), you want; and you can always change later for very little $$. If you have not already, take a look at the DIY Screens forum.



RVAtheater said:


> Speaker Placement
> I'm planning on using a 7.1 system but was interested in hearing whether anyone uses 2 subs or not? Is there a huge benefit and if so, then where would you suggest I place them in this room? The room isn't terribly large but maybe I could redo the walls and place them in the walls??


I have a relatively small room, ~15'x16'. At first I had one SVS PC12+ sub which sounded great and had plenty of output. However, I decided to buy a second PC12+ and it really makes a huge difference. Bass is much smoother and the low end extension seems to be much better. In your case, given that the HT is going to be open to the pool/bar rooms and therefore much larger volume, I would say two subs is a must and you should consider planning for four. Your placement options are a little limited given the one open side, but I think you can get decent results by putting two on the front wall and, if necessary, two on the rear wall. 



RVAtheater said:


> Wiring
> I'm planning on using 14 gauge wire for my speakers but not really sure if that is the best way to go.


#14 is probably fine given the relatively short runs you're going to have. However, if you ever decide to go with low-Ohm speakers in the future you might benefit from #12 wiring. 



RVAtheater said:


> Right now I just have basic Klipsche speaker set from BestBuy with a single subwoofer. I'm also though trying to figure a way to incorporate some other ceiling speakers and pump the sound from the amps into the other rooms if there is a big event and I want both screens playing the same thing and everybody together. Especially at the bar area and where the couches are located. It would just be something fairly simple that is tied into the amp but have a wall on and off knob or something.


Many newer recivers have multi-zone capability. You could control each zone (display and speakers) separately with two different sources or the same source. Is that an option given your budget?



RVAtheater said:


> I've love to go RF frequency on my lights and everything but am just way over my head on that. I was told to run Cat5 wire to all my light switches if I ever wanted to think about RF control? Is this correct?


If you have light switch/dimmer that has IR control, you can use Cat5 to provide an IR emitter at the light switch IR receiver to control through your IR repeater system. If you do go this route, be sure to provide a separate termination box (and conduit, if you are using it) for 120V and Cat5. Per the National Electric Code, you cannot mix power and control voltage in the same box or conduit.



RVAtheater said:


> To the projector we were going to run 2 HDMI cables, Component, RCA, and DVI just to have the connections. We are running a 1-1/4" conduit from the equipment to the projector locations in case we want to upgrade in the future which i'm sure will happen sooner rather than later. We cut two different 1-1/2" holes to the projector locations to make this possible. Is there anything else that I can do with wiring? I've seen racks and racks of wiring and harnesses all over the place but I'm not quite sure what everyone is running in their racks.


I would recommend you consider providing a means to connect your laptop to the PJ just in case you ever want to. That could be a VGA wall port with VGA cable to the PJ, or can be another connection (HDMI, component, S-video, etc.) to the PJ or through the AVR.

Sounds like a lot of fun. Let everyone know how this goes.

Regards,
sga2


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

sga2 said:


> If any piping passes above or inside walls around the HT room, you should check for noise (i.e., ask wife to go around house and turn on showers and sinks and flush toilets while you listen in the basement). Pipes can be very noisy (esp. PVC) but can be treated easily before you cover everything up. Refrigerant piping for your HVAC unit can also be noisy - force the unit into cooling mode for a couple minutes (not too long, don't want to freeze the coil) and check those also.


I do have some issues with the noisy pipes, yes PVC drains, and the HVAC. I've seen some folks use some sorta wrap around the pipes but haven't found it at HD or Lowes. Could you further elaborate on how to fix these issues? Do I need to get into wrapping these items with mass load vinyl or box them in with something like MDF? I'm hoping there is an easier answer but realize that with sound proofing, nothing is really easy.




sga2 said:


> I highly recommend you do not vent to the garage for a couple of reasons. One, there is probably a fire-rated separation between the garage and the rest of the house which you'll compromise by poking a hole through it (can protect with a fire damper, but that should be done by a pro = $$). Two, any openings into the garage provide a potential path for carbon monoxide and other vehicle exhaust products into the living area. You can mitigate this, too, but not worth it IMO.


Wow this is great advice. As soon as I read this I thought "oh no...the carbon monoxide fumes" and sure enough you pointed that out as well. Thanks for the heads up.



sga2 said:


> Honestly, I don't see your projector alone breaking the bank WRT HVAC performance. That said, you need to be sure you have enough capacity to handle your needs for the basement (including many people, some lights on, and AV equipment loads). Did the contractor size the system based on a "typical" basement, or your specific criteria?
> 
> Even if you have enough, my biggest concern is your zoning. Having main floor and basement on same zone is not uncommon but is not the best approach esp. if the basement is going to be used to entertain large groups of people. You can have times when the main floor is calling for minimal cooling (or worse, heating) but you are hosting a 6-hour-long Super Bowl party or a day-long movie marathon and need cooling in your HT room. If you're really concerned you should get some prices to sub-zone the system or add a supplemental ductless split system.


The basement room HVAC was design by the contractor for a "typical" basement...whatever that is? Given the track record of the contractor and the design of the house I would say it isn't set up for anything resembling an entertainment room. Your concern about the heat being needed for main floor while needing cooling is my major concern as well. I thought that by getting the projector heat out of the room i would at least stand a chance. The back wall does exit out under an area that will be utilized as a deck so maybe I can look into that direction. There are some other solutions that the HVAC guys have told me about with individual units which I think you are caling split systems. Your concerns about the usage for day-long movies marathons or games are EXACTLY the concerns I have as well. I'll check into these devices again and get an HVAC guy out to look at sub-zoning the unit. I have a feeling they can dampen the zones differently but there won't be a way to cool and heat from the same unit in different zones. 

I had a similar problem in my recording studio and it was the single worst design flaw I created. Its amazing how much heat tube amplifiers, musicians, and drummers can generate. It was a complete disaster.




sga2 said:


> As a point of interest (may be important depending on what treatment solution is offered), are these downlights IC-rated (Insulation Contact rated)?


Yes these are IC-rated and all the ceiling joists will be filled with R-30 insulation. R-19 for the walls.



sga2 said:


> Screen size seems OK based on the room dimensions and seating distances. The projector may work but it looks borderline if you're going to need some ambient lighting which means a grey screen is a must. That said, if you aready have one you should try it and only replace if necessary.


Going to projector central.com and using their distance calculator I see that “ambient” lighting term used and honestly I’m not sure I understand what it means? Does that mean the projector needs light in the room to visually meet its mark? I’m a UBER-NOVICE with the whole screen situation and would love some advice about “gain”, “grey”, “white”, “black”, “non-reflective”, etc. 



sga2 said:


> One that subject, you might consider doing a DIY painted screen. It is very inexpensive (whole project for less than $100); you can make any size, shape, and color (white, grey, reflective, non-reflective), you want; and you can always change later for very little $$. If you have not already, take a look at the DIY Screens forum.


I’m going to check in on this. The ability to change later for little $$$ is a huge plus. In all honesty the last screen we had was a 105” pull down white screen from Sams Club and to my wife and I it looked amazing. I’m sure the person with the trained eye can tell a huge difference but if we are talking $4,000 screen compared to $100 or so and the differences are say a 7 to a 10 on a scale then it’s a no brainer. I could use that money on a new projector or speakers or wetbar or whatever. I don’t mind spending good money on good items but there is always a limit to how far you can go. 



sga2 said:


> I have a relatively small room, ~15'x16'. At first I had one SVS PC12+ sub which sounded great and had plenty of output. However, I decided to buy a second PC12+ and it really makes a huge difference. Bass is much smoother and the low end extension seems to be much better. In your case, given that the HT is going to be open to the pool/bar rooms and therefore much larger volume, I would say two subs is a must and you should consider planning for four. Your placement options are a little limited given the one open side, but I think you can get decent results by putting two on the front wall and, if necessary, two on the rear wall.


I will be looking into these subs. Can you build those subs into the walls? Where did you place those subs in your room? Could you provide some pictures of them installed to get an idea of how you worked around them with your chairs and riser and such? Your absolutely right that the doors and open are killing me with space limitations but the open room really feels great and looks great but we are currently looking at rotating the room now.



sga2 said:


> #14 is probably fine given the relatively short runs you're going to have. However, if you ever decide to go with low-Ohm speakers in the future you might benefit from #12 wiring.
> [\QUOTE]
> Going to order #12 since we will potentially use lower-Ohm speakers (studio stuff) in the future.
> 
> ...


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## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

I'm going to break down my response in a few posts: 



RVAtheater said:


> I do have some issues with the noisy pipes, yes PVC drains, and the HVAC. I've seen some folks use some sorta wrap around the pipes but haven't found it at HD or Lowes. Could you further elaborate on how to fix these issues? Do I need to get into wrapping these items with mass load vinyl or box them in with something like MDF? I'm hoping there is an easier answer but realize that with sound proofing, nothing is really easy.


The keys to soundproofing are mitigating sources when possible (i.e., limiting velocity in pipes and ductwork), eliminating/minimizing all sound transmission paths, and adding mass between source and receiver to dampen the sound. This is, of course, grossly oversimplifying the practical application challenges but covers the basics. 

Piping: 

First, isolate the pipes from the structure, making sure there are no hard connections, as much as possible. Where pipes pass through walls or floors, provide a gap (~1/4-1/2" annular space) between the pipe and the building assembly and fill the gap with insulation and seal with acoustic caulk. After the isolation is finished, wrap the pipe with a mass-loaded pipe wrap, or try a DIY route which I did with great results (see How to Kill PVC Drain Pipe Noise). Pipe supports are a little trickier since you don't want to compromise the support system. Generally, want to add something resilient between the pipe and the hanger like elastomeric foam (Armaflex) - may need to replace hangers with oversized ones. Can also get spring/neoprene vibration isolation pipe supports for more dough, but I think that is overkill in this application.

One note regarding refrigerant pipes... be sure to keep the insulation on any refrigerant pipes intact. One of these pipes carries very cold (often below freezing) fluid which will cause condensation if not properly insulated. And you do not want any condensation inside your walls or above the ceiling under any circumstances. 

Ductwork: 

Here are some common noise concerns with residential HVAC duct systems: 

Noise/vibration generated by the air handling unit fan. 
Noise generated by turbulence within the duct (along duct wall and at elbows/transitions).
Noise generated at the air device (register or grille).
Noise generated by air leaks.
Sound which travels from one space to another through the duct system ("cross talk").
Ductwork that simply passes through the space above the ceiling is, in my opinion, usually of minimal concern in a home theater compared to a critical listening room or a recording studio. By the time any sounds makes it through the duct wall, duct insulation, additional acoustic insulation you're adding, and the ceiling assembly, it should be well below your noise floor and likely imperceptible. There are, of course, extreme cases such as where the air handler is only a few feet away or where the contractor has provided a particularly bad duct/fitting configuration. Often, if the offending noise is generated within the duct, you can fix by lowering the velocity (increasing duct size) or reworking duct to minimize kinks and sharp turns (esp. in flex duct). 

Ductwork which serves the space presents several additional challenges since much of the noise I described above now has a direct path into the room through the air device. In general, I offer the following advice:

Provide at least 10ft (more if possible) of flexible duct between main trunk line and air device (register or grille). Limit velocity in this duct section to 350-450 feet per minute.
Keep flex duct as straight and as taut as possible. Compressing or creating turns with flex duct significantly increases the surface roughness and airflow generated noise. 
Where elbows are required, provide long gentle turns and avoid any kinks or sharp bends (using a saddle like this one to keep maintain elbow shape is a good idea). 
#3 above is critical at the elbow just above your air device. You really want to get this one right since any noise created there will have little opportunity to be absorbed before it enters the room.
Oversize your registers and grilles. Want to keep velocity LOW.
Maximize the distance the air has to travel from the air handling unit to your room. Generally, about 15-20ft of fiberglass duct and/or flexible duct will sufficiently attenuate fan noise for a home theater. More is better.
Also, if you hear any audible leaks, be sure to patch them properly. These are not only a source of noise but also energy loss.

If you have any specific concerns, please post info so we can offer help.


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## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

RVAtheater said:


> The basement room HVAC was design by the contractor for a "typical" basement...whatever that is? Given the track record of the contractor and the design of the house I would say it isn't set up for anything resembling an entertainment room. Your concern about the heat being needed for main floor while needing cooling is my major concern as well. I thought that by getting the projector heat out of the room i would at least stand a chance. The back wall does exit out under an area that will be utilized as a deck so maybe I can look into that direction. There are some other solutions that the HVAC guys have told me about with individual units which I think you are caling split systems. Your concerns about the usage for day-long movies marathons or games are EXACTLY the concerns I have as well. I'll check into these devices again and get an HVAC guy out to look at sub-zoning the unit. I have a feeling they can dampen the zones differently but there won't be a way to cool and heat from the same unit in different zones.
> 
> I had a similar problem in my recording studio and it was the single worst design flaw I created. Its amazing how much heat tube amplifiers, musicians, and drummers can generate. It was a complete disaster.


I highly doubt the system was designed to accommodate a home theater/bar for 20-30 guests as this would be highly unusual practice - and arguably poor design - for a standard residence. Residential HVAC design is pretty forgiving since there is usually minimal internal heat (occupants, lighting and equipment), there is a high degree of diversity in the loads, and because occupants are more tolerant of moderate temperature variations between spaces (up to 5F may be OK) at home compared to the office, partly because of relaxed dress code at home but also because we have more control over the thermostat (direct and placebo effects at work). Since a residence usually spends only a few hours per year anywhere close to a peak load condition, a designer can usually get away with taking liberties with their assumptions and "undersizing" (this really is a bad term) the system slightly. And, to be completely honest, there is a good reason for this practice since the system will provide better control and operate more efficiently if it is sized for a "normal" condition rather than a worst case condition. And in areas where humidity control is a concern (here in the Deep South) it is critical not to oversize. 

But, from a pragmatic standpoint, it certainly helps the contractor’s bottom line to keep systems as small as possilbe so I guarantee they did not size the system to handle a party of 30 plus a couple thousand watts of lighting and AV equipment load in the basement unless that was a specific criteria for this project. You should think about adding supplemental cooling or zoning the system, but will need some input from a contractor for pricing and to see what limitations your existing system might have. 

Here is a brief description of each option. Please ask if any questions:

Supplemental System:
This involves adding an independent split system (called "split" since there are two pieces of equipment, one inside and one outside, for the system) in the basement to help the existing system take care of the peak load conditions. Can be ducted or ductless. If your system has no hope of handling the basement without taxing the rest of the house (e.g., for someone whose main floor unit was not sized to handle any basement load), this is a must. The biggest benefits are that you can ensure this space always has sufficient capacity and can control this separately without affecting the rest of the house. Major drawbacks are the cost, space needed for the equipment, and potentially lower operational efficiency.

Sub Zoning:
This involves adding motorized dampers (each controlled by its own thermostat) to control airflow to different thermal zones (can be entire floor or individual spaces), a bypass damper to maintain minimum airflow through the unit during low loads, and a central controller to tell everything what to do. The central controller should poll each zone thermostat to determine whether the system should be in heating or cooling mode and whether each damper should be open or closed based on space condition and system mode. It should also have a changeover function to keep individual zones from getting too far from setpoint. This is a good approach if your system can handle the total peak load but just needs help diverting more capacity downstairs where needed. Benefits include improved system efficiency, potential for better control in more spaces, and minimal space needs. Drawbacks include cost (can be very costly depending on existing configuration), need to provide access to several zone dampers (may not be in good locations), and potentially some compromise in control in extreme conditions.

If you were starting from scratch, I’d recommend providing completely separate systems for the basement and the main floor. However, since you already have an existing system which is sized to handle at least some basement load, my guess is you can get good results by sub-zoning your existing system as long as you can divert enough air to the basement to handle the peak without taxing the upstairs. But you’ll need someone (HVAC contractor) to do a load calc to see if this is possible and what additional modifications might be required. Just be as specific as possible about your goals and be sure to ask plenty of questions. You can post any info you get back here for feedback.

Regards,
sga2


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

What about noises/sound that travels through the HVAC duct from other rooms. Or the noises from the basement that will then be transmitted throughout the house. Right now there is no insulation or drywall so all the noises whether from bedrooms upstairs or from the basement to those bedrooms just get transferred throughout. I can hear my wife and son playing in his bedroom 2 stories up from the ductwork in the basement. This is the RIGID duct and not the flexible duct that we installed. Can I wrap the RIDID duct in an insulation or should I use the mass load vinyl or similar? Maybe just installing the resilient channel, and double layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue will be enough to not make this an issue? Any thoughts on this?


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

I was told by the HVAC crew who did the system about a Mitsubishi Mini-Split Ductless heatpump for my recording studio section of the basement. They are rather expensive approx. $3000 for the unit but the fact of being ductless is worth its weight in gold right now. I'm not concerned at all during the summer months when the air conditioning is on its the winter months that have me perplexed. In summer the air conditioning and the basement temperature will work together to fight the heat as well as the heat from equipment and people. In the winter the heat from the HVAC will be working to 'overheat' the basement area that will have all the equipment and people inside. I think I can even get a Mini-split to just be an AC unit and is ductless. Not sure if this will be placed in the theater room or in the main room near the bar area where there isn't 9' concrete walls to deal with. Plus the outside unit can be placed pretty close to the other units as well. 

I'll check in with the HVAC guys and find out more about the subzoning capabilities of this unit. I still may need something like that as well just to have the automated dampers during the winter to close those off for the basement. I'll keep you posted about the results.

Thanks again for the responses. The information has been AMAZING!


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## Slyder01 (Jan 11, 2011)

from my experience on flex ducts, they restrict air, especially on longer runs


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

yeah we were told to keep those flex ducts as flat as possible without many(if any) pockets for air to get trapped. We have really good flow coming from the end of those flex ducts and it was about half or more LESS money than the RIGID. I would have preferred the rigid duct but when we saw the cost. WOW. Plus our max run is about 18' maybe with a collar. The rest are basically less than 15'. I think we have a combination of 6" and 8" with the 8" lines going into the theater and main room and the smaller room gets fed via the 6" duct. 

I'm just a little concerned about what sg2 was talking about with "cross talk" on those rigid lines. I think it might go away at least from the basement to the rest of the house once we are all closed in, however the other way around won't be much different.

Can you place the carpet padding around the RIDGID HVAC duct like the water pipe?? I didn't know if there was a code issue there or not.


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

BTW, does anyone have any drawings or specs for building the speakers into the walls?? Has anyone built their front/side/or back theater speakers into the walls to save space and make it look more finished? At this point I only have 2x4 walls in the front of my room so it would have to be something that I would build out with a fake column or something to get the depth to fit a speaker in. I think sandman had something similar with his curved columns. Any thoughts?


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## Slyder01 (Jan 11, 2011)

they do make a sound proof insulation. http://www.google.com/search?q=soun...0QzAMwAg&biw=1659&bih=865&fp=7b989c6c17f79c85... Not sure if you can wrap carpet underlayment arounf air ducts. I believe the sound is going to travel thru the duct via an opening, like where it exhausts out or a return vent.

BTW, there is a soundproof drywall on the market called suppressed. It works really well... http://www.supressproducts.com/products/


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## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

RVAtheater said:


> yeah we were told to keep those flex ducts as flat as possible without many(if any) pockets for air to get trapped. We have really good flow coming from the end of those flex ducts and it was about half or more LESS money than the RIGID. I would have preferred the rigid duct but when we saw the cost. WOW. Plus our max run is about 18' maybe with a collar. The rest are basically less than 15'. I think we have a combination of 6" and 8" with the 8" lines going into the theater and main room and the smaller room gets fed via the 6" duct.
> 
> I'm just a little concerned about what sg2 was talking about with "cross talk" on those rigid lines. I think it might go away at least from the basement to the rest of the house once we are all closed in, however the other way around won't be much different.
> 
> Can you place the carpet padding around the RIDGID HVAC duct like the water pipe?? I didn't know if there was a code issue there or not.


Sorry, "cross talk" is what we call the unwanted transfer of sound through the duct system from one room to another. It can happen when you have two areas connected by short duct runs (esp. unlined rigid duct). In extreme cases, you can have two offices (or bedrooms) next to each other and one person can very clearly hear his/her neighbor's conversation. In commercial design, we mitigate this by specifying that the take-off's be at least 8-10ft apart and use a MINIMUM 6ft of flex duct to the diffuser connection to attenuate the sound (the flex also helps attenuates other sounds in the duct like airflow and fan noise) and using acoustically-lined tranfer boots on return grilles. This is generally not a concern in newer residential builds where the distribution is mostly all flex duct and there is usually enough separation between take-off's to avoid any problems. However, it is a good idea to be sure any of the upstairs rooms served by this system have plenty of separation in the duct system from the basement. 

Regarding flex duct... if properly installed, flex duct is very useful and you should have no problems given the limited lengths typical for residential construction. It is true that a 6" diameter flex will have higher resistance than 6" diameter hard duct, but you can always upsize to 7" or 8" which you are probably going to do anyway for the HT room to keep your air velocities low. At that point the airflow resistance becomes a minimal concern. However, the key is that it needs to be "properly" installed - that's where many contractors usually miss the mark.

Regards,
sga2


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## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

RVAtheater said:


> Going to projector central.com and using their distance calculator I see that “ambient” lighting term used and honestly I’m not sure I understand what it means? Does that mean the projector needs light in the room to visually meet its mark? I’m a UBER-NOVICE with the whole screen situation and would love some advice about “gain”, “grey”, “white”, “black”, “non-reflective”, etc.


The ambient lighting is any lighting that hits the screen from sources other than direct projector light (e.g., light through windows, fixtures in the room, and secondary light reflected off the screen then off light colored room surfaces and back onto the screen). This is the _maximum_ ambient lighting incident upon the screen which is recommended to maintain acceptable image quality (contrast ratios, black levels) - less is better.

There is wealth of information - and very knowledgeable help - on these subjects in the Projection Screens forums, both the manufactured and DIY sections. 

Regards,
sga2


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## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

RVAtheater said:


> I will be looking into these subs. Can you build those subs into the walls? Where did you place those subs in your room? Could you provide some pictures of them installed to get an idea of how you worked around them with your chairs and riser and such? Your absolutely right that the doors and open are killing me with space limitations but the open room really feels great and looks great but we are currently looking at rotating the room now.


The SVS subs I have are vertical cylinders (see PC12+ info from SVS website). These are currently in each of my room's front corners. I still have some finish work (baseboards, carpet) which I put off until after the holidays so I've not had time to tweak the locations yet. They may end up closer on either side of the center channel (between the front mains) when all is said and done. 

I would not recommend putting these inside a wall cavity as the design is not optimized for that installation (you'll still get plenty of boom, but will not get the best these subs have to offer). You might get acceptable results from one of their front-firing, front-ported box subs if installed in a wall, but I'd ask SVS support (VERY helpful) and post some questions on the subwoofer forum for advice. 



RVAtheater said:


> I wasn’t aware of this, again I’m a novice on the HT electronic stuff and know a little more on recording gear. I’ll check these out as this sounds perfect for my situation. Have any recommendations for receivers? We tested a Denon and a Yamaha unit in our previous room and ended up with the Yamaha as it seemed a better fit based off those same parameters…price, performance, connections, and power. It’s a little frustrating the store we have here in Richmond that reasonably sells these higher-end units is Best-Buy (magnolia store). They seem to have quite a bit of units to test but the sales-staff is lacking in knowledge. The HT stores are extremely high priced and while the staff people know everything you need to know about HT gear, they rarely have any of it in the their stores. I’ve heard the “we can order that for you” line everytime I go in. I understand the situation but its still quite frustrating when you want to put your hands and ears on the item and give it a test run.


I got the Onkyo TX-NR3007 for about $1k at accessories4less.com (instead of ~$2k from BB). This is yet another gem of a website that I discovered through this forum. I am very happy with it. My only beef is that the relays are very noisy which would be a real bummer if I had the equipment in the room (I have in a separate closet so not an issue). It is still available and you can save a ton of money on this series which includes 1007 and 5007 models. I am not completely positive which of their other models outside the x007 line have multi-zone support, but you can check out a4l or the Onkyo website for more info. Note, however, that the new x008 models offer HDMI 1.4 support and a newer version of Audyssey. But I am just happy with my 3007.



RVAtheater said:


> I bought 1000’ of Cat6 wire to run in the basement. Do you just run the wire from the equipment hub to the light switch? I’m not quite sure how this is to be connected? Is it actually connected inside the switch and electric box? Or is there a separate electric outlet box that needs to be added beside the switch? I’m a little confused on this one. We don’t even have the IR controlled switch/dimmer but look to potentially add that in the future. Changing the switch/dimmer is pretty easy compared to trying to run wire in the walls once everything is done. I’m trying to get all that accomplished for now and future items while I have the chance.


You can use Cat6 for much more than network systems. Among other uses, you can carry line level audio, 12V trigger, and IR repeater signals. For an IR capable light dimmer, you would need to run the Cat6 from your IR repeater system power/control block (probably in the AV equipment rack) to a junction box next to the light switch. From there, you would terminate the Cat6 with a 1/8” mini jack (or whatever is compatible with your IR emitter), connect the IR emitter to this termination, and put the emitter “bulb” on the IR receiver on the front of the light switch. I am not aware of any direct IR signal connection for any residential-grade light dimmers. There may be a more elegant solution and I hope someone will chime in here if so…



RVAtheater said:


> Awesome, this is actually something we are already doing. That’s a first! LOL. We are running 2- HDMI cables to the back row seats for Laptop connectivity. In addition to my HDMI cable to the project I’m going to add component, S-video, RCA, and VGA connections as well. I figure I already have the holes and the projector has those connections anyway. I am wondering if there is ever a need to run 2 – HDMI connections to the projector. The Epson Powerlite Cinema 6100 has 2 – HDMI input connections but I’m not sure what that would ever be used for since everything would plug into the HDMI connections at the receiver. Is this needed?


The two reasons I can see to run two HDMI’s to the projector are redundancy and in case you ever need to connect something direct to the PJ instead of through the AVR. I ran two myself in case I accidentally put a drywall screw into one of them. I used protection plates everywhere, but still… 



RVAtheater said:


> Thanks so much for the help and information. Sorry this message is so long!


No sweat. I owe this forum big time for all the advice and information it has given me. Good luck with everything.

Regards,
sga2


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

edited below...sorry I forgot to quote the original post.


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

Slyder01 said:


> they do make a sound proof insulation. http://www.google.com/search?q=soun...0QzAMwAg&biw=1659&bih=865&fp=7b989c6c17f79c85... Not sure if you can wrap carpet underlayment arounf air ducts. I believe the sound is going to travel thru the duct via an opening, like where it exhausts out or a return vent.
> 
> BTW, there is a soundproof drywall on the market called suppressed. It works really well... http://www.supressproducts.com/products/


Yeah the auralex stuff is pretty good material but VERY expensive. When I outfitted my studio the U-boats, resilient channel, Sheetblok, and acoustic panels cost me a fortune. I later found that there are MANY other companies that have similar materials. I had to do quite a bit of research but if you can get samples of the stuff you can make a determination about the quality. Some are just plain CHEAP while others aren't bad. 

There is a construction company here that sells and acoustic sheetrock. I think others have spoke about it on the construction forums and have said its great too. However, when I priced it they were at $100 for a 4x8 sheet!! That is outrageous. Especially when 5/8" drywall is about $8.50 a 4x8 sheet. You can get great STC values from a wall with a typical section including resilient channel, 5/8" drywall, green glue, adn 5/8" drywall. Its a little more work but the cost wouldn't be close. The resilient channel is about $175 for a box of 24 at 8' length, the green glue is more pricey but nothing like $100 for drywall. 

Someday I'm going to find a location that has two rooms built, one with the acoustic drywall and another with regular drywall to hear/see the differences. I would love to check that out.

Thanks again for the post and information!


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

Many of the specialty items mentioned are great. Others are very overpriced, while some are completely unnecessary. 

The specialty drywall types mentioned are a good example. We want the mass and we want damping, absolutely.. These specialty drywalls are simply standard drywall or cement board with a damping compound. You can buy drywall and you can buy damping compound. If you assemble the boards yourself you'll have much more mass when done, better damping and much, much lower cost.

You can look for side by side rooms and have a listen, however you're also factoring in untold variables. I might instead suggest you simply look at the readily available independent lab data. Carefully controlled lab environments have already isolated and reduced variables, and have detailed measured results by frequency. 

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/library/green_glue_testing/


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## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

RVAtheater said:


> What about noises/sound that travels through the HVAC duct from other rooms. Or the noises from the basement that will then be transmitted throughout the house. Right now there is no insulation or drywall so all the noises whether from bedrooms upstairs or from the basement to those bedrooms just get transferred throughout. I can hear my wife and son playing in his bedroom 2 stories up from the ductwork in the basement. This is the RIGID duct and not the flexible duct that we installed. Can I wrap the RIDID duct in an insulation or should I use the mass load vinyl or similar? Maybe just installing the resilient channel, and double layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue will be enough to not make this an issue? Any thoughts on this?





RVAtheater said:


> I'm just a little concerned about what sg2 was talking about with "cross talk" on those rigid lines. I think it might go away at least from the basement to the rest of the house once we are all closed in, however the other way around won't be much different.
> 
> Can you place the carpet padding around the RIDGID HVAC duct like the water pipe?? I didn't know if there was a code issue there or not.


I think that if you are treating all room wall/ceiling surfaces with resilient channels and 2x drywall with green glue, you probably don’t need to worry about much sound entering or leaving the duct in the basement via the duct walls. This also assumes any bare metal duct is wrapped in duct insulation (a must for several reasons) and the rest of the ceiling cavities are filled with acoustic insulation. 

That said, dealing with sound entering/leaving air devices (registers and grilles) to and from the basement will require adding acoustically absorbent media inside the duct surface along the sound path - options include acoustical duct liner (impractical to add to existing duct), replacing sections of metal duct with duct board, adding duct silencers at the point of entry/exit from basement (effective, but costly and requires expertise to select/apply properly), or taking advantage of sound attenuating properties of flex duct. As with everything, each of these have compromises in cost and performance and the best solution for a critical application will use some of these in combination. In your case, given the room treatments you are already planning, I think you can get good results by using flex duct (min. 8-10ft from connection to main duct) for _all_ air devices within the basement.

To your last question… Adding carpet padding or other treatments to the OUTSIDE of a duct generally presents no code issues. However, anything that is exposed directly to the airstream (including inside ducts and transfer openings like a “dead vent”) must be “plenum rated”, meaning it is tested and listed for low combustibility and smoke generation. 

Regards,
sga2


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

Well had a semi productive weekend. This would have been so much easier before the little guy was born. He loves his hammer and he thinks he’s helping daddy so even though its MUCH slower, its still incredible.

I got my Cat6 wires run from the equipment tower to the stairs (location of all network/tv/internet). I ran 4 dedicated wires for now plus the coax. Also ran Cat6 lines from the second TV location to the stairs as well. I’ve been trying to do more research about running the Cat6 to the dimmer locations in the room but haven’t found a great deal of information on that subject. I didn’t see any RF dimmer switch that had connectivity to it. Most are all wireless, or so they seem. I’m obviously not looking at the right thing. I was looking at the Z-waves units but I don’t see how they are connected. The subject is a bit difficult to find images or installation instructions so I’m hopeful those on here who have done this and run the fibercables to their dimmers can show some pictures?? Talk about the installation process and connectivity??

I also fixed my riser by adding strips of pressure treated 1x4 to the bottom so I not only get the pressure treated wood on the floor but I also get the airflow so help keep things dry under there once the insulation is added.

I’ve almost completed all the wiring for lights, outlets, and the bar area. It’s incredible the amount of wiring needed to complete this project. I think I’m up to 1000’ of 12/2 wire and another 250’ of 12/3 wire. I’m quite confident I’m over killing the outlets and lights but there will be outlets available to plug something in and we’ve tried to think most of that through. Especially with the dimmers and controls on the lighting to help with overheating.

We temporary set up the projector and put a couple of white sheets up to see how the distance and heights were going to work in the room. Given the numbers from the XLS sheet they were pretty good. 

Here are a couple of pictures from this weekend with the screen. 

I also set up a makeshift 5.1 sound system just to get a feel for what it was going to be like. I also wanted to test my ceiling speakers and see how they would work. The distance from the first row of chairs to the screen comes in at about 11’ and the back row is up against the back ledge and at 16’. The projector is about 14.5’ from the wall and that gave us a nice 135” screen size. The Epson 6100 Cinema made it very nice to move the screen up and down, left and right so I think I can push the limits of the top of the screen and the soffit. 

However I do have some issues with the riser height. I’m a little nervous about it. My wall height is 8’11” and the projector is about 11” off the ceiling. Giving me about 8’ of space. Take away the 8” I have now for the riser and we are talking 7’ 4” of height. The Berkline chairs in sitting position and on the riser still won’t allow you to look over the persons head in front and see the very bottom of the screen. I am debating going ahead and building a 2x4 riser on top of the 2x8 riser to get the height I need. I’m going to also install a step getting in to the room to help with getting up on this 12” riser.

I guess I just don’t like the thought of someone being able to reach the projector, but I don’t see another way around it. Unless maybe I buy a better projector that would let me reach a 135” screen size at a shorter distance from the wall??

Also if anyone has an image of what it would look like to connect Cat6 or Cat5 cable to an RF dimmer switch it would be greatly appreciated. A picture is worth a thousand words and seeing how I’m simply braindead on this subject maybe that would help me out.


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## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

RVAtheater said:


> Also if anyone has an image of what it would look like to connect Cat6 or Cat5 cable to an RF dimmer switch it would be greatly appreciated. A picture is worth a thousand words and seeing how I’m simply braindead on this subject maybe that would help me out.


I don't have an image of a finished installation, but the idea that I am familiar with involves using an IR dimmer that has an IR eye built-in (e.g., this product from Leviton). You would run the Cat6 from the IR repeater power block to a junction box next to the box holding the dimmer, splice the Cat6 to an IR emitter, run the emitter through a hole in the faceplate of the Cat6 box and affix the emitter to the IR eye on the dimmer.

Hope this helps until someone posts a picture.

Regards,
sga2


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

sga2 said:


> I don't have an image of a finished installation, but the idea that I am familiar with involves using an IR dimmer that has an IR eye built-in (e.g., this product from Leviton). You would run the Cat6 from the IR repeater power block to a junction box next to the box holding the dimmer, splice the Cat6 to an IR emitter, run the emitter through a hole in the faceplate of the Cat6 box and affix the emitter to the IR eye on the dimmer.
> 
> Hope this helps until someone posts a picture.
> 
> ...


That makes a lot of sense. So what is the deal with z-waves products like their dimmer and control panels? If those units were used would it be needed to run the cat6 wire? I guess after reading all the documentation for z- waves I don't see the need anymore. I'm sure there are many more uses that I don't even know about at this point. Thank u again for all the help.

I have a 1000' of wire so I might go ahead and run just in case.

Any thoughts on the river height and the.ability for people to touch the projector since it will now be low enough to reach?


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## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

RVAtheater said:


> That makes a lot of sense. So what is the deal with z-waves products like their dimmer and control panels? If those units were used would it be needed to run the cat6 wire? I guess after reading all the documentation for z- waves I don't see the need anymore. I'm sure there are many more uses that I don't even know about at this point. Thank u again for all the help.
> 
> I have a 1000' of wire so I might go ahead and run just in case.
> 
> Any thoughts on the river height and the.ability for people to touch the projector since it will now be low enough to reach?


I'm not very familiar with Z-Wave, but I think their systems are all RF-based.

So, if you raise the riser to 12" total you'll have 7'0" from riser to projector? I don't think it is a major problem. Keep in mind that the standard residential door height is 6'8". It's not so low that people are going to be bumping into it accidentally. If you're worried about friends messing with it... well, that depends on what kind of friends you have. :foottap:

Regards,
sga2


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

Well i'm raising the height of the riser to 13" for just the back chairs. Since the riser is 6' long I'm going to have a step down on the riser itself before stepping down onto the floor. This will give me the extra height and keep my distance from the projector as much as I can get. 

I went ahead and ran the Cat6 to the dimmer locations and also to my locations under the stairs and near the wetbar. We've decided to add another TV location at the bar area. 

Im using the idea for the outdoor string light bulb set from BigMouth DC on the other forum so I'm running a dedicated 20 amp circuit for those 1250watt light string and also the rope light. 

I'm hoping my speaker wire will get here today. From the boards we ordered a couple hundred feet of 14 guage for the mains and surrounds and 100' of 12 guage for subs. The runs don't really call for it but I'd like to have a little thicker guage for the subs in hopes it will give me some extra bass umph.

I'm looking at placing my in ceiling speakers but I'm not sure where to place these guys in the main room, wetbar area, or extra space extended from the main room. I only have 4 of these but they are pretty nice for as cheap as they were. My wife found them through this website and I was pleasantly pleased at how nice they are. 

Still have to cut the concrete to put the power to the bar area and build the overhead soffit in the wetbar but I'm still debating on the ceiling construction.

Since I have so many recessed lights and I'm already planning on installing insulation in the joists and 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with Greenglue, is it worth money and efforts to install the Resilient channels? I do have a hard surface above the basement (kitchen tile) but with so many holes from the 6" recessed lights I just don't know if its worth the money. Also the drywall folks don't seem to know what to do with it and I'm not confident that they will hit the channels but will opt for the joists where they can. This would ruin the concept anyway. I sure don't want to put the ceiling up and then have remorse that I didn't do it but I also don't want to install all this and then realize, hey I just cut 30 - 6" holes in the ceiling and ruined the STC value anyway. Any thoughts anyone?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

With all the holes, you're at a borderline point for even doing the extra drywall unless you box them all in. You're kind of defeating the purpose of sealing up the room when you end up cutting a bunch of holes. Every 4 holes you cut assuming 6" cans is equal to 1 square foot of 'hole' for sound to pass right through.

Bryan


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

I agree. With all of those untreated holes, I'd likely call it a day after a single sheet of 5/8". Maybe two.


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

In order to seal those cans would I have to build a frame around them? Do you have a spec or design drawing somewhere that shows this construction process? I'm mostly concerned with trying to dampen the noise from the footsteps in the kitchen downstairs. However, the builder wouldn't let us add any treatments to anything in the house so we are stuck with that for a while. We upgraded to a nicer tile or I would have had it ripped out by now. There are about 18 cans under the kitchen (tile) area that I would like to try and seal with whatever method you say if possible. Maybe there is a link that you might have that would help? I'll start the google search now...

Thanks for the help guys!


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Foot fall is difficult on tile without having an isolation method underneath it. Boxing the cans will help a bit though. 

The easiest way is to just build an MDF box around each can with some space for heat and keep that also decoupled and tied to iso clips and seal it to the drywall that's isolated via caulk.

Bryan


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## Ted White (May 4, 2009)

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/manual/sim_backer_box_installation_guide/


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

thanks guys. This is going to be tough to fit if at all. I have all new construction lights already wired and some of which have other utilities close by. Going to check this evening and see what kinda situation this is going to be. It doesn't look good though. It certainly isn't the end of the world but it puts a real downer on the foot traffic noise from upstairs. It will obviously be better than having nothing at all but not anywhere near what I would prefer. 

Thanks again for the info and great links!


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm looking at installing the 14 guage wire for my speakers and just wanted to see if what I was thinking will be the best "available" areas to place my speakers.

At this point I just have a 7.1 Klipsche surround sound speaker set with 1 sub woofer. I'm looking at adding another floor subwoofer but that might not happen for a little while. I'm going to run the wire regardless.

I see most of you guys have much bigger and better fronts and main speakers that are all built into the walls. At this point I won't have that ability and these speakers will just be mounted on the outside of the wall. Again, I'm running the speaker wire in hopes that someday I can build out those nice columns in the walls and build out the speakers later once the appropriate funds come along. 

I've attached a picture below for reference. Sorry for the rough image!

I have the speaker locations in RED. 

From what I've read on the THX websites is that you keep the front speakers (LF & RF) at a 45 degree angle (between them) and about ear level or 2' higher than ear level and pointed down at the front row chairs. 

The center speaker will be in the wall and behind the screen which will be made of material appropriate for this installation. Its a relatively small speaker and should fit easily between 14.5" space between my stud wall. I do have the ability to extend this wall our just a little where there is a 3.5" notchout for a sanitary sewer cleanout. That will be something decided later as I just need to run the wires right now.

The back speakers (RL & RR) speakers are to be 2' above ear level but not in line with the 2nd row of chairs and pointed down again towards ear level?? 

The rear surrounds (Surrounds 1 & 2) from what I've seen are just in the middle of the back wall or separated at some distance.

Our room is FAR FROM IDEAL with the symmetry not balanced left to right like BPAPE mentioned to start these threads. However, this is what I have to work with right now. The back speaker (RR) will have to be literally "ON" the 7" column on the right of the room to make things work. We have some ideas about temporarily covering that open area and doorways but I'll have to explain those later. 

From the image do these appear a decent location for my setup?


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

Forgot to ask about my ceiling speaker locations. I only have 4 ceiling speakers that I bought from Monoprice. They are the MST-63-SK, 3-way, 6-1/2" speakers. Our main room is probably going to have a pool table in it and will be attached to the wetbar location as well as an alcove that will have a couple couches and coffee table.

I'm not quite sure where to put these speakers. I'm thinking that the wetbar area will be good for a couple of them and instead of placing any in the alcove area I'm just thinking of placing them on either side of the pool table. 

I was thinking of using them for music or accents to whatever game is on if we throw a big party. I'm planning on having the music hub under my staircase that will link back to the theater and also these speakers. I'm not 100% sure how I'm going to use them with the theater, if at all but I plan on running extra wire to both locations (under the stairs and the theater equipment room) just to make sure. 

These monoprice speakers are quite nice and sound pretty good. I think my wife paid $40 for one pair. We originally thought it was $40 a piece but were quite surprised when we got 2 pair!

Anyone have any thoughts on the location of these 4 speakers or is just more a personal preference type thing??


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Speakers should not be inwall or onwall unless they were specifically designed for that mounting. The close proximity to the wall changes how they sound (and not in a good way). 

Front speakers should be mounted to best lock to the screen. Think somewhere around middle of the screen. Obviously, without an AT screen, the center channel can't do that but get it as close as you can while staying as far away from floor/ceiling as you can.

Bryan


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

thanks Bryan. I've got about 18" from the floor to the bottom of the screen which is why I'm going with the AT screen for that center channel. Yes, I think the speakers are called Quintet from Klipsche and will have to be mounted "ON" on the wall for now. They were only a 5.1 set but we've upgraded to the 7.1 set and I'm not sure if they've changed the names on the product. My hope is that in a couple of years I can upgrade these speakers and just plan ahead with the wiring to build the next set in the wall. I'm planning on keeping as much of the re-do work to a minimum as I can. We'll see I guess. It surely isn't ideal...

So...
1. Keep with the 45 degree angle between the front speakers but keep it closer (vertically) to the midpoint of the screen??
2. For the surrounds will the 2' distance from the ceiling height work??? The ceilings are 8'11" and the chair height on the back row will be about 52" from the floor. The front row ear height will be about 42" from the floor.
3. I do have about 12 -18" of space from the back wall to the chair position because of a ledge on the back wall. Will this distance suffice for placing the 7.1 surrounds on the back wall???


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

1. Not sure what this 45 degree angle refers to. Place them as close to the outside of the screen as possible for the L and R and between screen vertical center and seated ear height.

2. Normal surround height is approx 6-6.5' from floor to center of speaker. In your room, I would tend toward the higher side.

3. If that's the space you have, it will have to work. At least they're behind you and you don't have to put them to your sides.


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

THANKS bpape!!

I got it from the THX website. Here are some images and text writeup from the site.

*7.1 Surround Sound Speaker System Set Up*
A 7.1 surround system has seven discrete audio channels, Left, Right, Center, Left Surround, Right Surround, Left and Right Back, and of course, the Subwoofer.

• Front Left & Right Speakers (L & R): Place the Front Left and Right speakers at ear height, producing a 45° angle as viewed from the main seat. This delivers a wide sound stage and precise localization of individual sounds.

Any thoughts on the placement of those ceiling speakers in my basement area and wetbar???


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

That's fine - just remember that you also have to keep the screen size in mind and how that impacts what you can and can't do.


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

Definetely will keep that in mind. Those diagrams are just outright goals and your post and information might be the end result anyway. Either way I have a good basis for running my wires and potential speaker placement.


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

RVAtheater said:


> Forgot to ask about my ceiling speaker locations. I only have 4 ceiling speakers that I bought from Monoprice. They are the MST-63-SK, 3-way, 6-1/2" speakers. Our main room is probably going to have a pool table in it and will be attached to the wetbar location as well as an alcove that will have a couple couches and coffee table.
> 
> I'm not quite sure where to put these speakers. I'm thinking that the wetbar area will be good for a couple of them and instead of placing any in the alcove area I'm just thinking of placing them on either side of the pool table.
> 
> ...


Just hoping to get some incite on this decision. I think the locations are pretty good but would love to hear some thoughts from those who have maybe done this before. I just don't want to to run my wire until I have some confirmation from others who have done basements or ceiling speakers in the past. Again the picture is shown up a couple of posts from here in this thread.


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## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

RVAtheater said:


> Just hoping to get some incite on this decision. I think the locations are pretty good but would love to hear some thoughts from those who have maybe done this before. I just don't want to to run my wire until I have some confirmation from others who have done basements or ceiling speakers in the past. Again the picture is shown up a couple of posts from here in this thread.


Just a thought... I notice the 4 speakers are not placed symmetrically about the secondary screen in the billiards/bar area. I know this are is not as critical as the theater, but you might consider trying to arrange the speakers about the screen to provide best stereo (or 4-channel surround) effect, if that is a consideration.

Regards,
sga2


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## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

Also, on a somewhat related subject... Do you have (or have plans for) a security or fire alarm system in the house? If so, make sure you have a smoke detector in the basement (need one in mech room and one in the open area). I would also recommend you add another alarm horn or control panel down there so you can hear the alarm if it sounds. 

You might also add a doorbell chime while you're at it so you know when the pizza guy shows up.

In my basement, you cannot hear the alarm or the doorbell at all. And I do not have nearly as much acoustical treatment as you plan to use.

Regards,
sga2


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

well I'm finally getting some more work done. Been down in the dungeon working as well as dealing with a host of house issues. I only get a few hours a weekend to work on the basement and theater. Its rough. I want to thank Ted White and the folks at Soundproofingcompany.com for all the help and advice. Those guys are amazing and the product was ontime and ready to go. THANKS GUYS!!

Items that have been re-worded and added:
1) Had to rework some electrical to add in the starry sky which required taking a couple of light cans down. Also had to rewire A LOT of my electrical boxes so they will fit when I add the double drywall and hatchannel with Whisperclips. Also, added new lights in the built in shelves under the stairs. Moved the sconce lights around a bit since the screen size won't allow sconce lights beside the screen. 
2) Ended up re-building my riser to add another level to get above the first row when completely reclined. Have connected up all my wiring (electrical and audio) to the riser. I've ran S-vid, VGA, HDMI, RCA, and Component to two different locations on the riser. Also ran that same wiring configuration to the projector as well. Since the riser was built our of 2x6 studs I added R-30 in it for insulation.
3) Added two extra walls for sound treatment under my stairwell and in the theater room. Under the stairs I added a 2x8 wall and used staggered stud construction on it. Also added some nice build in bookshelves on them too. For the screen wall I added another 2x4 wall and left an inch air gap between the first wall.
4) Added rigid fiberglass to the projector screen wall and all corners plus insulated all the walls. Haven't been able to insulate the ceiling with R-30 just yet because I haven't completed the drywall installation between the joists. Still got a long way to go with that.
5) Received my shipment of 160 - 5/8" drywall pieces. Ranging in size from 4x8, 4x10, 4x12. Going to be installing double 5/8" drywall on all walls and ceiling with Whisper clips, hatchannel and green glue on the ceilings. The walls in the theater will also have a green glue sandwich but I couldn't afford the clips and hatchannel as well as the space and re-re-work of the electrical. 
6) Received my shipment of 600 L.F. of hatchannel
7) Received my shipment of 200 Whisper clips, 5 - 5gal buckets of Green glue, and speedlock applicator
8) Started adding the drywall between the floor joists in the ceiling. Will be making a double 5/8" drywall layer between the floor joists.
9) Ran all my Cat6 cable to the locations I needed in the theater closet, under the stairs, and into the wetbar area.
10) Got my order from monoprice will all the 14 guage and 12 guage wire, connections, and faceplates for the walls. I've ran all my wiring and made the connections. The test speaker system is really nice since they are just a simple Klipsche Quintet system with subwoofer. 

Its a slow go right now but I'm still making progress. I'm hopeful that I can get the double 5/8" and green glue between the joists soon so that I can put up the R-30 and install the Whisper clips and hatchannel on the ceiling. I have some extra Auralex Sheetblock that I'm using on the screen wall to save cost but I have to get the ceiling done before I can start anything else. 

I still have to figure out what to do with the wetbar area and rent a concrete saw to add the power to the center island. I'm not really looking forward to that. There is still some framing to be done in that area but we need to know our refrig height and other dimensions.

I've decided, at least for now, not to run the awesome marquee-esque type bulbs under the cabinets and above the sink area. I would love to do it but I think its probably overkill. We are adding in some rope lights in the wetbar area and the starry sky in the theater will be great. We are also going to be adding glass blocks under the center island in the bar area. That with some backlighting will look rather nice too.

I'll have pitures up soon. Its funny most of it looks the same! re-work. O-well as long as we get it the way we want it I'll be quite content! I just might be 80 years old when I finally get to enjoy it!


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## RVAtheater (Jan 6, 2011)

Pictures PRE-CARPET INSTALLATION!!

Well it’s certainly been a while since I’ve posted on here. I'm still working on the basement and theater but boy oh boy has it taken more time that expected. I'm sure thats pretty standard in these things.

We are now at the pre-carpet installation standpoint. I still have quite a few things to do but let me tell you what, this is a HUGE point in time. The only thing that I had to contract out so far was the drywall and mudding/taping. I ended up doing everything else. The wetbar is now going to be a full kitchen as we ran a gas line to hookup a gas stove. Figured this could someday setup as a rental property if things turn south on the job front. Good Lord I hope it never comes to that! :gulp: I’m going to install a nice full height back splash above the sink area all the way to the soffit. I found a really cool red-ish color backsplash at Lowes and hope to use it. Going to have granite installed in the kitchen area and bar as well as the half wall separating the theater and the main room. I plan on using that for a nice bar landing when we have more people than the theater will hold. 

Once the carpet is installed I can finally move our 6 theater seats down and start to enjoy the room a little. Still much to do but its time to relax a little and enjoy it for a moment. 

I still have to install the 16’x8’ starry sky in the theater area which is why the ceiling paint looks strange. We bought the unit but I still have to get the plywood, furring strips, paint, and black velvet. Plus the whole installing 800 light strands…YIKES.

The basement bathroom will be installed sometime this fall and I’m hoping to start on my recording rooms during that time as well. Whew! From one cooker to another. I won’t even get into brick paver and deck construction. 

I ended up installing hat channel, whisper clips, and green glue in a double 5/8" sandwich on ALL the walls and ceiling. Cost a little more but was well worth it. I also installed a double 5/8" layer of drywall and green glue between the joists in the ceiling. The front wall of the theater and under the stairs is a staggered stud 2x10 wall with R-13 insulation and Rigid Insulation as well. The theater has all R-13 insulation coupled with Rigid insulation except for the ceiling which has the R-30 insulation.

The speakers in the ceiling of the main room are from Monoprice and I wired them with 14 gauge wire. Literally the last thing I need to do before the carpet folks show up is install the volume controls in the wall for the 3 sets of ceiling speakers. The rest of the work can happen after the carpet is installed. I can't say enough great things about monoprice and their stuff. Just amazing speakers and cable for cheap prices.

I used a flat Behr darker chocolate paint for the theater. It seems to hold up pretty well with the ambient light. I got all my trim down and the ceramic tile installed over the past couple weekends and everything looks pretty good. 

I went with the Scorpion N7.5 DIY paint for the projection screen and really like the way it turned out. I may someday install a 145” pulldown or motorized screen but for now this is just amazing. Took a little to get the aluminum base but it was well worth the time and efforts. 

Working with a home theater installer (on the side) to install a Crestron AV2, Baluns, and iPad2’s to connect up the theater components into a Middle Atlantic Slim 5 rack. I need something that can fit into a tight space (about 22 inches of free space) and this unit seems to do the trick. He was also going to work on new RF light dimmer switches to control upwards of 10 lights into different scenarios. Not sure how much we are going to be able to afford but I’m hopefully. I had planned on buying a new Denon home theater amp that has multiple zones but he is going to make a pitch for a different amp later this week. I’ll keep ya posted on which one he comes back with.

Anyway enjoy the pics. It certainly isn’t a Sandman theater but it should be pretty nice once completed.


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