# LARGE room multi-sub help please.



## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

After the setup of some new gear, it’s time to add the sub(s) and I was hoping to get some thoughts here.

Being in Thailand, selections are limited but what is available isn’t so far off US prices. 

There are no in-home auditioning, no exchanges and warrantees are limited to 1 year, so I need to be confident in my selections. 80/20 movies to music.

Existing gear consists of Focal 936 mains with their CC 700 center and 906 surrounds using a Marantz SR7009 9.2 with XT32 sub room correction.

I know I won't get the chest thumping bass I had in the dedicated room back in the US, but I'm missing a lot as the mains only drop to 39Hz. 

Here’s what I have to select from listed by Brand, Model, Size, RMS, F.Res. and Price. (Sorry the spread sheet would not attach)


JBL	LS120P 12" 400W 25/150	$1,100.00 

Klipsch	SW 112 12" 300W 24/125	$720.00 
SW 115 15" 400W 18/125	$1,000.00 

KEF	Q400b 10" 200W  28/140	$740.00 

Velodye	EQ Max 10" 195W 28/120	$650.00 
EQ Max 12" 225W 25/120	$900.00 

SVS	PB 2000 12" 500W 17/260 $900.00 
PB 13U 13.5" 1000 17/200	$2,000.00	

In most of the reviews and comments I've read, SVS seems the way to go but oddly enough they recommend if using 2 subs, both should be on the front stage, flanking the mains.

I know that I'll need multiples given the room volume of about 14,000 ft./3 but how many and what size or is the room just to big?

DIY's are out of the equation due to sourcing limitations here.

The Klipsch 15" x 400 W is bigger than the SVS 12" but it supplies 500 W. What am I looking for here? I guess it's a process of elimination.

Any input and suggestions will be greatly appreciated and thanks to everyone here for past advice and to GIK for ongoing acoustics advice.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

That room is absolutely gorgeous, but it sure doesn't look like 14,000 ft^3 to me. Are you certain about the measurement? The total volume of space will go a long way toward determining what will/won't work, so accuracy matters.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Bahtman said:


> In most of the reviews and comments I've read, SVS seems the way to go but oddly enough they recommend if using 2 subs, both should be on the front stage, flanking the mains.


The knowledgeable staff at SVS must have had good reason for that recommendation (it may have been a generic one based on the info they had at the time). But I agree it is a bit odd without having reviewed measurements or auto-EQ results. Sub-crawl anyone?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I would agree than the SVS PB13u would be the sub of choice in that list. I have one and its wonderful.


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

theJman said:


> That room is absolutely gorgeous, but it sure doesn't look like 14,000 ft^3 to me. Are you certain about the measurement? The total volume of space will go a long way toward determining what will/won't work, so accuracy matters.


My original calculations of room volume were not on hand at the time of this post, so I took an educated guess. I've since found them and the corrected number is 12,000 ft./3 but I'll re-do them just to be sure and post back

Thanks for the quick response and compliments on the room.


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> I would agree than the SVS PB13u would be the sub of choice in that list. I have one and its wonderful.


I've since been in touch with Ed at SVS on their FAQ site and he's suggested a pair of SB13's where the small cabinets are. I was going to remove them anyway so that's not an issue.

I need to check if I can get the SB's here as I was only shown the PB's.

While tossin' and turnin' last night I was also thinking along the lines of 4 x PB2000 given the same price, combined watts of 2000, frequency response comparison and near double to cone surface area.

I've pretty much decided on the SVS line, just working out the details.

Thanks for the input.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I think 4 PB2k's would be pretty awesome. I'm curious as to why Ed suggested SBultras instead of Pb's. It seems like too many cuft to effectively use sealed. He obviously knows more than I do, but I wonder what the nuts and bolts are.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> I think 4 PB2k's would be pretty awesome. I'm curious as to why Ed suggested SBultras instead of Pb's. It seems like too many cuft to effectively use sealed. He obviously knows more than I do, but I wonder what the nuts and bolts are.


+1

The PB's seem far more likely to be a better option than the SB's, so I'm also curious as to what lead him to make that assessment.


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

theJman said:


> +1
> 
> The PB's seem far more likely to be a better option than the SB's, so I'm also curious as to what lead him to make that assessment.


Not sure why he offered up the sealed vs. ported.:dontknow:
I've posted that question to him and will tell you his reasoning.

Fortunately the distributor in BKK carries both sealed and ported. :clap:

Thanks to all for the support.


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

theJman said:


> +1
> 
> The PB's seem far more likely to be a better option than the SB's, so I'm also curious as to what lead him to make that assessment.


This is the response I got from SVS regarding the use of the SB13 U's vs. PB13's ..........


_Ed Mullen 

Hi Mike -

"A living/family room generally requires a delicate balance of sound quality, performance, visual impact, consumed floor space, and décor integration.

IMO dual SB13-Ultra is the best option for this application and best balances all of the above criteria. Given the distance to the listening position, a pair of them will perform extremely well on all source material without consuming excessive amounts of floor space or presenting visual impact and décor integration issues.

Placement between the mains will avoid the door opening along the left wall, will look visually tidy and symmetrical, and should perform just fine from a modal/standing wave density standpoint.

Naturally other options will also work, and the choice to go with quad ported PB-2000 or dual ported PB13-Ultra depends on the source material and playback level - and your tolerance for visual impact/décor integration and floor space consumption. 

If you want to play action and sci-fi movies at/near reference level and you want tons of output and extreme slam/impact/pressure in the 18-36 Hz octave, then the ported solution might be a better choice. 

Generally that isn't the case in an upscale living/family room multi-media system application. Usually it's a mix of HDTV, Blu-ray, music and gaming - and the playback level at moderately loud to loud levels and a pair of SB13-Ultra will certainly easily support same along with outstanding sound quality."

Ed M - SVS_ 



Visual impact is a given, and considering the room design and the immense size of the ported 13's I would have to agree. At 28" deep and located right up against the wall behind them, they would extend well into the existing space.

I don't need _"tons of output and extreme slam/impact/pressure in the 18-36 Hz octave range"_ just some low end and it would seem he factored this in as well.

I posed the same question to him, including the pics. in my opening post here, and it would seem that he took his evaluation and recommendation quite seriously, addressing standing waves, integration, and usage rather than just pulling something out of his hat.

Four PB12's might be a bit hard for me to integrate considering locations and wiring issues, so I'll stick with his professional opinion and recommendation and move forward on the 2-SB13's.

I hope this may help others in understanding of his "nuts and bolts" assessment and the reasoning behind his selection.

Thanks for all the help this forum and all responders have given to date in my system selection. :clap::clap:

After the sub setup it's on to the next and last phase...acoustics. :dontknow:

Mike


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

You never posted back about the room dimensions. Did you ever get a chance to check and see if the space really is 12000 ft^3? If so, I still don't see a choice other than the PB's to be honest. Ed has probably forgotten more about subwoofers than I'll ever know, so I'm certainly not doubting the man, but I just don't see a pair of SB13U's having much chance in a room that size. I had one for a while myself, so I know first hand that it's an amazing sub for the size, but you're essentially trying to pressurize a cavern. It will take a _tremendous_ amount of output to accomplish what you need to, so unless you happen to be sitting right on top of the subs you may find out they're going to struggle. That being said...

If your choice is listening to my advice or Ed's I'd go for the latter. He does this for a living so I'm sure he has come across similar circumstances in the past. Whatever you decide, be sure to come back and post your thought about whichever sub you went with.


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

theJman said:


> You never posted back about the room dimensions. Did you ever get a chance to check and see if the space really is 12000 ft^3? If so, I still don't see a choice other than the PB's to be honest. Ed has probably forgotten more about subwoofers than I'll ever know, so I'm certainly not doubting the man, but I just don't see a pair of SB13U's having much chance in a room that size. I had one for a while myself, so I know first hand that it's an amazing sub for the size, but you're essentially trying to pressurize a cavern. It will take a _tremendous_ amount of output to accomplish what you need to, so unless you happen to be sitting right on top of the subs you may find out they're going to struggle. That being said...
> 
> If your choice is listening to my advice or Ed's I'd go for the latter. He does this for a living so I'm sure he has come across similar circumstances in the past. Whatever you decide, be sure to come back and post your thought about whichever sub you went with.


I re-measured the room again yesterday and it's closer to 10,300 with furnishings. Not an easy task given the height and angles and my somewhat limited geometry skills.

The distance from the MLP to the mains form the suggested equilateral triangle at about 10' which happens to coincide with Focal's recommendation....
"_Appropriate from a listening distance of 10-12ft (3m - 3.5m) and for rooms measuring from 270ft2 (25m2)"_ ........albeit the room area. 
Even their larger Aria 948's couldn't fill that requirement. And quite honestly any mains that would be suitable for 10,000 ft./3 would be beyond my reach.

The MLP also happens to be the recommended seating distance from a 65" UHD TV, so the existing setup seems to have worked out quite well, so far.

Ed's suggested sub placement would locate them about 8' from the MLP, and I'm not sure if you'd consider that "sitting on top of them" or not.

I've not made a purchase yet but I remember while in BKK 2 months age listening to a Martin Logan Dynamo1500 for almost the same price. I've not done a comparison search yet but it's a 15" sealed putting out 650W with a Freq. Res. of 20-200, lower than the SVS specs. Any thought's there?

I know trying to pressurize this sized room would not be easy and in-expensive, and had I thought ahead, I would have dropped the ceiling considerably, but it is what it is.

I appreciate your concerns and advice and any additional comments and, thanks again for your input.:T


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

theJman said:


> You never posted back about the room dimensions. Did you ever get a chance to check and see if the space really is 12000 ft^3? If so, I still don't see a choice other than the PB's to be honest. Ed has probably forgotten more about subwoofers than I'll ever know, so I'm certainly not doubting the man, but I just don't see a pair of SB13U's having much chance in a room that size. I had one for a while myself, so I know first hand that it's an amazing sub for the size, but you're essentially trying to pressurize a cavern. It will take a _tremendous_ amount of output to accomplish what you need to, so unless you happen to be sitting right on top of the subs you may find out they're going to struggle. That being said...
> 
> If your choice is listening to my advice or Ed's I'd go for the latter. He does this for a living so I'm sure he has come across similar circumstances in the past. Whatever you decide, be sure to come back and post your thought about whichever sub you went with.


Hey again.

Just finished doing a bit of research from your profile and it would seem your quite the go to guy when it comes to subs. Seems that you've taken more than your share apart. :clap:

While your pondering my last post about the ML's could you please throw the Paradgym Ultra Cube 12 v.2 into the mix. It seems that I can get them here as well, along the same price line as the ML and SVS.

Only if you have the time.

Thanks


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

the Paradgym Ultra Cube is a step back from the SVS, they just dont output nearly as well as SVS.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Bahtman said:


> Just finished doing a bit of research from your profile and it would seem your quite the go to guy when it comes to subs. Seems that you've taken more than your share apart. :clap:
> 
> While your pondering my last post about the ML's could you please throw the Paradgym Ultra Cube 12 v.2 into the mix. It seems that I can get them here as well, along the same price line as the ML and SVS.


Yea, I've had my hands on a subwoofer or two in my time.  AAMOF, if you want to know what I think of the Dynamo 1500 click on this link.

The UltraCube is an interesting design. Probably 2 years ago I contacted Paradigm about getting a review unit, and the UltraCube 12 was among the ones I suggested as potential options. They sent a Monitor SUB 12 instead, citing the 'mature' status of the UltraCube. In other words, it's an old design. Be that as it may...

The UltraCube will pale in comparison to the SB13U, so that's really not a viable alternative given your situation. The Dynamo 1500 could very well be a good option though. Another thing to note is Paradigm is very generous with their lower extension numbers. For example, they claim the Monitor SUB 12 is rated down to 16Hz, but I never got anywhere near that level of output.


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> the Paradgym Ultra Cube is a step back from the SVS, they just dont output nearly as well as SVS.


Thanks for that info.


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

theJman said:


> Yea, I've had my hands on a subwoofer or two in my time.  AAMOF, if you want to know what I think of the Dynamo 1500 click on this link.
> 
> The UltraCube is an interesting design. Probably 2 years ago I contacted Paradigm about getting a review unit, and the UltraCube 12 was among the ones I suggested as potential options. They sent a Monitor SUB 12 instead, citing the 'mature' status of the UltraCube. In other words, it's an old design. Be that as it may...
> 
> The UltraCube will pale in comparison to the SB13U, so that's really not a viable alternative given your situation. The Dynamo 1500 could very well be a good option though. Another thing to note is Paradigm is very generous with their lower extension numbers. For example, they claim the Monitor SUB 12 is rated down to 16Hz, but I never got anywhere near that level of output.



After reading your comments and others reviews of the Paradym's unit, my list has shortened to the ML1500 and SVS 13U but I'm still awaiting answers posed to Ed. 

The fact that the ML setup was pretty straight forward is refreshing using PBK, if available here. Hopefully so, as without one, it may pose a set up problem for me. Just how critical is the PBK?

Ed has also offered setup assistance on his SVS's.

The music you used for your Monitor SUB 12 brings back a lot of memories. CCR, GFR, Zep et al. I'm sure we grew up in the same generation as we both appreciate the same tunes. Where are they now?:dontknow:

I never knew you did so many sub reviews and I'm glad we connected. Your providing a good source of information here and I'm sure everyone appreciates it as much as I do. Keep up the good work.:clap:

Given your knowledge of both the ML and SVS's I'm looking at, "which would you prefer?". I know it's an overused question and certainly subjective, but your opinion means a great deal to me.

Thanks in advance.

Mike


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Bahtman said:


> The fact that the ML setup was pretty straight forward is refreshing using PBK, if available here. Hopefully so, as without one, it may pose a set up problem for me. Just how critical is the PBK?


That depends, do you have some type of room EQ in your processor now? Audyssey, YPAO, MCACC, something along those lines? The PBK integrates brilliantly with the Dynamo 1500, but if you already have something that can tame the lower frequencies then it may not be necessary.




Bahtman said:


> The music you used for your Monitor SUB 12 brings back a lot of memories. CCR, GFR, Zep et al. I'm sure we grew up in the same generation as we both appreciate the same tunes. Where are they now?:dontknow:


I was fortunate enough to grow up in the time where some of the most renowned and influential bands were in their heyday. I consider myself very lucky in that regard.




Bahtman said:


> I never knew you did so many sub reviews and I'm glad we connected. Your providing a good source of information here and I'm sure everyone appreciates it as much as I do. Keep up the good work.:clap:


I'm glad you enjoy my work. It's always very gratifying to know I was able to help someone.




Bahtman said:


> Given your knowledge of both the ML and SVS's I'm looking at, "which would you prefer?". I know it's an overused question and certainly subjective, but your opinion means a great deal to me.


This is one question I don't answer I'm afraid. The reason is my personal preference could factor into your decision, and if it turns out we have different priorities you may not judge the outcome the same way I would. Everyone is different, and their circumstance unique, so what might be 1, 2 and 3 wants/needs for me may be the exact opposite for you. I can certainly offer advise, suggestions and even play devils advocate, but I've found it's best not to make definitive statements for someone else's situation.


Tell Ed I said "hi". :T


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

theJman said:


> That depends, do you have some type of room EQ in your processor now? Audyssey, YPAO, MCACC, something along those lines? The PBK integrates brilliantly with the Dynamo 1500, but if you already have something that can tame the lower frequencies then it may not be necessary. :T


The Marantz SR7009 carries Audyssey XT32



theJman said:


> This is one question I don't answer I'm afraid. The reason is my personal preference could factor into your decision, and if it turns out we have different priorities you may not judge the outcome the same way I would. Everyone is different, and their circumstance unique, so what might be 1, 2 and 3 wants/needs for me may be the exact opposite for you. I can certainly offer advise, suggestions and even play devils advocate, but I've found it's best not to make definitive statements for someone else's situation.
> Tell Ed I said "hi". :T


Fair enough and I'll pass on the :wave: to Ed. I get a bit a-nal (_of, relating to, characterized by, or being personality traits (as parsimony and meticulousness. Not relating to, or involving the anus_) when it comes to these matters, and he's been hangin' in there providing answers and support as you have.

Thanks to the both of ya:clap:


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

XT32 has hundreds of adjustment points for the subwoofer alone, so to be honest I'm not certain you would derive any additional benefits form the PBK.


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

Some final thoughts here and some answers to a PM.

There are no in-home auditions here, no exchanges and no “send it back if you don’t like it”. Hence, my trying to acquire all the information needed on forums to make a decision. Warranties here range from 3 months to 1 year on everything, even if the sticker says 5. 

I had a chance to audition the 2 subs on my short list, the Martin Logan Dynamo 1500 and the SVS SB13U, after flying to Bangkok, as there is nothing local here. Living here has its downsides, believe me.

The ML has a 1 year here and satin black (which I prefer) is priced at $1415 vs. $1600.00 . I’d be pretty much on my own, with little or no tech support other than online with ML, maybe.

The SVS distributor here initially offer a 2 year, but after intervention by SVS itself, changed it to a 5 yr. parts. MSRP US is also $1600.00 and I was initially quoted $1657.00.
The dealer here only has piano black, which I can live with. No kids to deal with and the grill not a deal breaker. It is what it is.
He sweetened the deal by adding the SVS connects, and SVS isolation pads at a better price than I can get online. With the add-ons there’s a difference of about $285.00 each.

With the 5 year warranty, add-ons and great SVS customer support, the $285.00 difference is something I can live with.

Ordering up the pair of SVS’s tomorrow.

I’d like to thank all of those who helped me throughout his process, from speaker and AVR recommendations to the subs. :TT

And I apologize for what seems to be an inappropriate PM. :scratch:
Think robots.

Mike


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

Thanks again.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

You did the wise thing by going to hear them both in person. That was an excellent suggestion someone gave you! 

Either subwoofer would have worked well for you so there really wasn't a bad choice to be made, only one that suited you better. Be sure to come back and let everyone know what you think of your new toy after you have it all dialed in. Congrats!


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

Just back in town and wanted to report back on the SVS 13's Ultras.
The pair located inboard of the Focal mains as recommended by Ed are better than expected.
After a few tweaks and re-running Audyssey they were finally dialed in.
Although the mains are well removed from the 65" Sony, the whole system came to life with the pair of Ultra's. 
Even with the subs located about 8' from the MLP, the seamless and well blended sound stage with no localization made this journey worth it.

The Marantz SR 7009 is everything I'd hoped for and although it isn't being used to it's full capacity only driving 5.2, the future for upgrading is open

I broke out the dvd collection and am re-experiencing them thru an awesome system vs. the TV speakers. 
Life's good.

Thanks for all those that provided guidance and assistance.

Mike


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Bahtman said:


> Life's good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 indeed. Lfe's good! Glad to hear it worked out so good. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Glad it worked out so well for you. That system looks great too!


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