# Yet another... how much sub do I need thread.



## bbieger (Sep 15, 2009)

Ok,so I have a pair of Polk RTI 8's, axiom surrounds, and currently no subwoofer as every sub I bought at the local stores sounded horrible when I got it home. On a whim I purchased a samsung blu-ray player and I bought an Onkyo 607 as well, mostly so I could just run everything in and out on HDMI cables and tame the cable nightmare.

WOW!! the blue ray and new receiver made things really come to life. Now I NEED a subwoofer. (ok, so I'm obsessing at this point, but at least I am in the right place). So here is the deal, my listening room is 14 x 19 with 8 foot ceilings. However, this room is open to the dining room (12 x 14) on the long side. Will a SVS PC12-NSD provide decent bass in this large of a room or am I going to need something massive?

I've got mad woodworking skills and could build a nice sub but I essentially no next to nothing about all the tuning and measuring, etc. So somthing off the shelf for <$700 is really what I am after.

Thanks a bunch!!!!!


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

bbieger, I think the problem is that anything off the shelf is going to be a disappointment in general. You can find a much better quality sub in the price range you're talking about from an internet direct company. Some subwoofer makers to look at are SVS (as you've already found), Hsu Research, Elemental Designs, Epik, and Rythmik. Most of those will have a sub that is in your specific price range and will outperform what you've experienced in spades.

Regarding the PC12-NSD, I think it will be sufficient for what you need right now. It certainly ought to blow the pants off of what you've heard in your room already. I'm a believer that you can't really have too much. More subwoofer(s) will just provide extra headroom, less distortion at higher volumes, and a more pleasing sound overall.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Jon has hit the nail on the head. You will get a much better sub for the money going with the above mentioned. SVS builds a great sub as I have one and it is fantastic. Your room is on the smaller size so the PC12 would do wonders. 
DIY is also a great idea and you could very well build a sub that is even better for around $700. Mike is our resident DIY guy (others as well) and would be the guy to ask about that side .


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

What's your budget?


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

He stated less than $700 is his budget. Very doable, I might say.


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

Yes, easily doable. Indeed, if the OP is not experienced with DIY one of the Parts Express kits might be right up his alley.


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## bbieger (Sep 15, 2009)

It seems that with any decent DIY effort I'll be in the $600 range. (500 watt plate amp, decent 12 or 15" sub and materials). How would a titanic mk 15" powered with a 500 wt. Dayton amp compare to the svs 12 referanced above? Mostly movies some music, vocal wife 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GregBe (Apr 20, 2006)

As with anything else, you will get more bang for you buck DIY. Since you say you have solid woodworking skills, I would definitely go that route. Since I don't, I went with SVS, which as stated above (along with the other direct sub companies), is a way better than store bought for the money, but DIY does better than them both.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

The Titanic 15" would play louder ans lower then a PC12-NSD, as long as cabinet size isn't an issue.


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## bbieger (Sep 15, 2009)

hmmmm. Decisions decisions. Would be pretty fun to crank out a cool sub but nice veneer gets expensive very quickly. I have a line on a PC12-NSD for $470 shipped to my door. Would be cool to have a massive 15" woofer in a really tall and narrow enclosure but I'm wondering if I really NEED that much sub. Is that blasphemous on this forum? LOL I generally get yelled at if I'm shaking the walls. 

Someone remarked that I have a small room but since the two adjacent rooms are connected by a 6' tall, 12' wide pass through, Isn't my room essentially 443 sq. ft. with a volume of 3,544 cubic feet. Seems large to me?


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Yeah, that's a sweet deal on that pc12-:joke:


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## bbieger (Sep 15, 2009)

ironglen said:


> Yeah, that's a sweet deal on that pc12-:joke:


Hey now, your not supposed to be able to see my indecision. It is a sweet deal and in all honesty, it seems like a whole lot less work (and money for that matter) to just go to the bank and get a cashiers check rather then start making sawdust. 

Just wondering if given the size of my room if I am going to "feel" that SVS.


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## GregBe (Apr 20, 2006)

That is a pretty big room.  The PC12 would do well, but it really depends on placement and how loud you intend to listen. It won't get you to reference level, but most of us don't listen close to that loud anyway. If you can place it close to your seating in a corner, depending on room response, might be your best bet for maximum output at the seats.


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

bbieger said:


> Hey now, your not supposed to be able to see my indecision. It is a sweet deal and in all honesty, it seems like a whole lot less work (and money for that matter) to just go to the bank and get a cashiers check rather then start making sawdust.
> 
> Just wondering if given the size of my room if I am going to "feel" that SVS.


I got you. I certainly don't want to talk you out of my sale, I do advise you to think it over and shoot you questions to members for feedback. At times I have had mixed emotions about going BIG- it is a topic of conversation, produces the deepest lows...on the other hand, I've now spent more time and money, and I think my electric bill is feeling that pro-amp...I might shoulda, coulda bought another svs sub for my difficult space. Surely there will be someone with a similar environ as yours that will chime in, someone more knowledgeable, or maybe ask the svs rep?


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## dgilme (Apr 1, 2009)

What about two of the shiva-x that are on clearance right now and an ep2500 that comes in at around 500. Leaving room for a good eq/high pass filter and cabinet materials. 

Or one of the shiva-x + pr kits Kevin has posted right now, those are pretty sweet deals. http://www.diycable.com/main/produc...s_id=691&Cid=9b108f2631272b1c937908b82158cd8c


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## bbieger (Sep 15, 2009)

Well I spoke with SVS today and gave them the lowdown on my room dimensions and what not. They advised me that the NSD would do "fine" but if I wanted to listen at higher volumes than I would be better off with the plus. Given the cost of the plus however, seems like the best move would be to get the NSD and see how it plays. I could always get another NSD unit and be out the same amount of cash as buying a single plus. From what I have read on the forum, two smaller subs are typically better than one large one. No?


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

In a matter of sheer output, yes. But that's a generalization. NSD drivers versus the Plus drivers versus even the Ultra drivers are different sounds all together. While output might be higher with two NSD, but the sound quality of the Plus is likely better, so it's a trade-off.

And also, getting a single NSD right now is a pretty good way to go and I think you might find that will be sufficient enough for your needs.


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## sub_junkie (Apr 14, 2009)

If your willing to spend around $80-$100 over your listed budget, you could go with a Maelstrom-X and a EP2500. 
The Mal-X was $430 shipped to me, and you can get an EP2500 at Guitar Center for $350. But, there are Ebay listings for the EP2500 that are at $320 shipped or close to that. 

The Mal-X is found Here

But, that's if you haven't already bought anything, or if you want to go with the DIY route. You could also go with the Mach 5 Audio IXL 18 ($265) found here and a EP1500 ($239 buy it now on Ebay) for a total around $504 excluding building costs which would be around $50 or so.

I went with the Mal-X and am very happy with it, and I only have 150w going through and it can handle 1800w easily. Got an EP2500 on the way...


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## bbieger (Sep 15, 2009)

SO I purchased IronGlen's SVS PC12 NSD and plugged it in last night. What was even more frightening to me than the sheer size of the unit (is that a kegerator? my wife says when I hauled the box in) was the sounds this thing could put out. I played dirt 2 on my 360 and when I first crashed into a concrete wall I scared the hell out of myself because as the controller shook, so did my chest from the booms coming out of the sub. 

Hopping around like some kind of drug addict that just found a bale of coke washed up on a remote beach, I threw T2in the blue ray and skipped forward to the nuclear attack flashback scene. DUDE!! To my wifes credit, she paused from watching true blood on her laptop in bed to come downstairs to calmly tell me that the bedroom windows were rattling. Then it was on to black hawk down's "Irene" scene..impressive but not fear inducing. Finally, (after all it was 12:30) I watched the "broken arrow" sequence on we were soldiers. This track is one of the best surround sound scenes I know of. Planes whizzing left to right, m16's and hand guns going off and my favorite..coffee table shaking napalm explosions :yikes::clap:

What is so cool about we were soldiers is that there are many "quiet" scenes int he middle of the fighting (like slow motion stuff) and often these scenes end with a big explosion or something that really does scare the out of you even if you know it is coming.

Thanks Glen!!
(dude, buy a blue ray!!)


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

If you think the PC12 NSD is big, you should see the PC-Ultra or the PB13-Ultra. Or better yet, the old-school B4+ that SVS made. Just imagine a box big enough for 4 twelve inch drivers and enclosure space to accomodate the pressure!

Oh and congrats on the purchase!


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Glad you like it! (hope it meets waf too) After you have it awhile in a corner, you'll forget about the size. Makes you wonder how you did without a good sub for so long, eh?:unbelievable:


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## bbieger (Sep 15, 2009)

I am going to try putting it behind a chair in the front corner and see how it sounds. Because it now sits directly adjacent to the listening position, you can tell where the bass is coming from in many instances. I can't quite stop thinking that a corner behind a chair will make it sound muffled.


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

I would try multiple locations, too. I always got annoyed when I could localize the bass signal. Even though the lower frequencies are much less directional, I still could tell and it always bothered me. So I always took a long time calibrating a sub, relocating calibrating, relocating, calibrating, etc. until I found the best spot. It may feel like a lengthy process, but it is well worth it in the long run.


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

It might work well, being downfiring, plus it is ported out the top:dumbcrazy: Get it set soon, and enjoy your movie-filled weekend!


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

bbieger said:


> I am going to try putting it behind a chair in the front corner and see how it sounds. Because it now sits directly adjacent to the listening position, you can tell where the bass is coming from in many instances. I can't quite stop thinking that a corner behind a chair will make it sound muffled.


DId you re-calibrate the system after you added the sub???.....I agree with Jon Liu, you need to play to find the best spot :T


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## subwoofernut (Oct 7, 2009)

Get at much sub as you can afford or fit into your room. As noted by other posters, SVS is always an excellent choice. Ditto for HSU. Look for deep extension and accuracy. So many of the boxes sold at the common electronics stores emphasize a bump around 65hz. to 80hz. and don't go much lower. Additionally, their drivers and cabinet designs show little imagination. The mid-fi market has dwindled in the last several years, and we've been largely left with miserable HTIB (Home Theater In a Box) and high-end big ticket items, without much left in the middle for everyman. Not everyone can afford Genelec or the better Velodyne or JL Audio models. Sadly, M&K no longer exists as the original firm. I will horrify the purists here by saying that a good sub should be both accurate for music and strong for Home Theater. (I'm sure a couple of over-priced spiffy interconnects frayed their ends with that thought) This forum is an excellent place to check out actual user opinions and experiences; and will prove much more informative than the big box salesman. (Who most likely is filling in for the day from the Appliance Department). I suppose that since I am new to this webpage and forum, I should make something of a "coming out" itemization of what's lurking in the space challenged living room:

Paradigm PS-1200 (2) w/Paradigm X-30 Controller
M&K MX150THX
Acoustic Research AR-S500 w/ Sunfire Amp
Yamaha YST SW-150 (2)
Velodyne CH150
Cerwin-Vega CHT-150 w/Paradigm X-30 Controller
Klipsch Synergy Sub-12 (2)
SVS SB12-Plus
M-Design Sub Tower 200 (2)

I will again horrify the purists by admitting that "Yes, Virginia", everything is hooked up and all working at the same time; on a dedicated 20-amp circuit. (More oxygen-filled, mountain grown, peasant free, hand wound, sustainably harvested plasma cables just shorted out) Amps and crossovers must be turned on in sequence to avoid nasty thumps, believe you me. Heh. But. Once I got everything in phase, home theater took on a structure threatening quality. You Betcha. Oh, and one last item. I have a really good alarm system. Heh. :bigsmile:


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