# Thinking About New Amps



## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

I'm considering replacing my Adcom 5500 and 7000 with Emotiva's XPA-2 and XPA-5 or Marantz's MM-7025 and MM-7055. Worthwhile or waste of money? My Adcoms are nearly 20 years old and the 5500's making me nervous due to it's lack of speaker protection.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

Considering the sensitivity on the KLF20's of ~100dB, and that the Adcom 5500 will deliver 200W RMS into 8Ω, I'd say you're in a good place with amps. How often do you run those amps wide open? At 200W RMS, you're at a nominal SPL of 123dB, which is 8dB past the end of the chart that OSHA publishes for noise exposure limits... 

With those sorts of specs, I'd guess you're a long ways off from the limits of either the amp or the speaker under regular circumstances. Even without some sort of protection circuitry, I think common sense and pain will keep you from hurting the KLF-20's. 

The real advantage you -might- pick up from a newer amp is if they have much faster slew rates (how fast the amplifier is capable of changing direction of voltage in the output) or if they have much larger damping factors. (the ratio of output impedance to load impedance, where a larger ratio dampens cone motion by dissipating current generated by the voice coil as a result of linear motion). Since the Adcom amps don't publish that spec, it's hard to compare on paper. 

If you could audition the amps and you find they sound better, go for it. But in terms of the safety of the speakers, I wouldn't be worried.


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

I'm thinking of just having the Adcoms serviced. I can hear a bit of grain in the 5500 and the 7000 seemed to have a weak channel in my right back surround when I last checked the levels through my prepro. Servicing them would definitely be cheaper than replacing them. Really I think I've just got the "I want something new bug" up my nose. I know a guy that would give me a very good price on the Marantz amps but I don't know if I want to lose 60 watts per channel with the 7025 vs the 5500. You're right about the KLF-20's though, at 200 watts these things will absolutely hurt you which begs the question would I be able to hear much difference at 140 watts.


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

I just discivered something about the Marantz MM-7055 that kicks it to the curb. It's power is rated at 140 watts RMS with two channels driven, not five. So much for those two.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

Well, at 140W, you'd still be getting 120+dB, you just won't have the headroom to hit 123dB. Can you hear the difference between the two? In a word, no. 

The Emotiva looks like it's still a contender... but Outlaw has a 7-channel monster that will dump 200W into 8Ω on all channels.... but it's $2K and weighs 93lbs. Servicing the Adcom might be the way to go.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

I have a Sherbourn 5/1500A that I am selling (in excellent condition 200x5), but it is gonna be expensive to ship due to the weight.


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

ellisr63 said:


> I have a Sherbourn 5/1500A that I am selling (in excellent condition 200x5), but it is gonna be expensive to ship due to the weight.


Details?


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

slovell said:


> Details?


PM'd.:T:T


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

I've even been thinking of buying a Crown XLS-1500 ($200 on Amazon shipped) to play with just for the fun of it. I've read so much about these amps it's gotten me curious about them. 300+ RMS on my KLF-20's ought to make a BIG noise in stereo. From what I've read you need 1.4 volts from the preamp to push the 1500. My Marantz sends 1.2 volts from the RCA's to the amp and 2.4 volts from the XLR's to the amp. Correct me if I'm wrong, I usually am, but using the XLR's should work quite nicely. If I don't like it I can always return it or sell it. Could be fun, could be a lot of fun. Or not. :hsd:


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

I've got 2 XLS (a 1000 and a 1500) amps in my setup, and I love them. I'd watch the price for a few weeks though... they've been swinging pretty wildly for about 2 months. One of the nice features is the switch-mode power supply... you get a 1500W (4Ω bridge) amp that only weighs ~12lbs.

I'm using the 1/4" Phono In (which should be tied to the RCA inputs) from my Outlaw 975, and it works perfectly. My RCA outputs are 2V.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Pro amps are great amps IMO.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

I have similar Klipsch speakers and they will sing with 30wpc from my tube amp and when running through my XPA5 they are well controlled and will produce any volume you are comfortable with cleanly.


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

Savjac said:


> I have similar Klipsch speakers and they will sing with 30wpc from my tube amp and when running through my XPA5 they are well controlled and will produce any volume you are comfortable with cleanly.


That's true, I have a Dynaco 70 clone tube amp that I hook up to my KLF's from time to time. It produces 35/40 watts per channel and sounds very nice with jazz and acoustic music, not so much with hard rock and home theater is out of the question with it. My system does double duty with both music and movies so I also need another amp that hits harder than the tube amp that I have.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Then I cannot recommend the Emo amps highly enough. The put punch and most excellent sound through the KLF stuff. I need to get me a set of the KLF 30's, I have wanted them for a good long time, just did not have the dough.


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

Savjac said:


> Then I cannot recommend the Emo amps highly enough. The put punch and most excellent sound through the KLF stuff. I need to get me a set of the KLF 30's, I have wanted them for a good long time, just did not have the dough.


I found my KLF-20's listed on Ebay for $300, they were in a little pawn shop in south GA below Savannah. The poor things were pretty beaten up but everything worked and the woofers were in good shape. I drove down there, brought them home and took them apart. The satin black cabinets were really scratched up, the grills were torn, the foam inside the cabinets was turning to dust. I sanded the cabinets smooth (there's oak veneer under the paint), gutted the insides, and used extra glue on all the joints and seams inside the cabinets. These have the extra bracing and the updated glue on the inside which was a nice surprise as KLF cabinets have a tendency to fall apart. I reinsulated all the interior surfaces with closed cell 1" foam cut to fit and glued in place with contact cement, but left the last foot at the bottom next to the ports bare for resonance. I repainted the cabs with three coats of primer and four coats of Rustoleum satin black which is literally an exact match to the finish that Klipsch uses. I called Bob Crites about crossovers and diaphragms. I used his titanium diaphragms for the tweeter horns but I had to get my titanium diaphragms for the mid horns from Klipsch as Bob doesn't stock them. I forget which current model use the titanium mids, but I had to tell the guy at Klipsch Service that I had blown them before he'd sell them to me. That taken care of Bob built me a set of crossovers with an added bandpass for the mids, mine are the first set he built. He really is the Klipsch Guru and a great guy, so helpful. I actually bought new in the box grills from Klipsch, they still had them in stock. These speakers sound so much better than OEM, I love them and they look better than new. I've got photos of my build somewhere if anyone wants to see them. The titanium diaphragms add sparkle to the highs and smoothness to the mids. Bob's crossovers just improve everything. If I remember correctly he added to bandpass to the mids so they would'nt overpower the tweeters, whatever they do it works. These speakers will crank up with little power but they absolutely love power, the more the better. After the rebuild and parts I've got around $1400 in them total, not bad.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Sure Sam I would love to see your built out photos. I did the same thing to mine, and the changes were dramatic. The original tweeters and crossover were brittle and could hurt a man on occasion. The new titanium tweets tame the high end and provide a very much more relaxed presentation and actually with the Crites crossove, the speakers blend much better. There was a time when the tweets just took over and would not blend nearly as well. 

That was an excellent story and I wish I could find something in a pawn shop, the 20's or 30's would be quite acceptable, and that way I would have full range all around the room. I also have the C7 center channel and it is a whopper.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hey Ron, I'm also still rattling around the amp thing. In my eBay watch list is a Yamaha p7000s. Opening bid is 200, no bids yet and getting close to the end. On paper it's a beast, and more than my JBL's will take. I'm wondering about the differences in using something like this vs the adcom 555's I've been watching, or a krell, or carver etc. I'm also wondering about pro amps vs boutique amps and all the esoteric mumbo jumbo associated with them. You know, treble from the heavens, and bass from below, etc. what is your takeaway? since you've been down both roads.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Hey Ron, I'm also still rattling around the amp thing. In my eBay watch list is a Yamaha p7000s. Opening bid is 200, no bids yet and getting close to the end. On paper it's a beast, and more than my JBL's will take. I'm wondering about the differences in using something like this vs the adcom 555's I've been watching, or a krell, or carver etc. I'm also wondering about pro amps vs boutique amps and all the esoteric mumbo jumbo associated with them. You know, treble from the heavens, and bass from below, etc. what is your takeaway? since you've been down both roads.


I just sold 4 of the Yamaha P2500s amps to a HTS member and he loves them. I had replaced them (consolidating equipment in the rack as I was out of space) with a Lexicon (Bryston), and a Sherbourne for a couple of months, and then replaced them with a Yamaha MXA-5000 amp, and I have to tell you the Yamaha sounds as good as any of the others (I have owned the Adcom 555, Classe DR10 as well as other nice amps) do even though it is the least powerful of the bunch. Of course I only need a few watts to listen at reference levels so all the previous amps were way overkill. I have to say the Yamaha Pro amps are every bit as good as any of the amps I have owned, and I would still have them if I hadn't ran out of space. One thing I can say is that when the Lexicon, and Sherbourn were idling they used double the electricity of 4 Yamaha P2500s, and 1 Yamaha P7000s amps at reference levels (in my efficient setup). Yamaha def knows how to make a good amp and be efficient at the same time. The P2500s or P3500s are both amps that will give you great sound for your money (as will the P7000s...which you said is way more power than you need).

The only area the Yamahas are not as good as some other amps is the below 20hz area as they are not designed to go that low. Now I use the P7000s amp with my Danley DTS-10 subs and they go down to around 15hz in my room as I recall, so they are fine for me. If you want a sub amp that goes down to 5hz though i would look at a different amp. One other thing I have never heard a fan turn on no matter how hard they were pushed in my setup. :T:T


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

If you want a group of people who are incredibly harsh critics of amplifier quality, talk to your local pro audio guy. (Not the dude at your church... the one who's been out of the road for a decade). They don't tolerate bad sound, and as such amps that sound bad get retired early, and never purchased again. The industry itself weeds out the bad apples. 

About 20Hz pro amps... most pro amps won't bother to reproduce signal below 20Hz because in that arena it's a waste of power. It takes such absurd measures to reproduce signal down there in the venues where they operate that it is impractical (truck space, weight, cost, etc). So almost all of them will filter out everything below 20Hz to save power and protect drivers. But if you want pro-grade amps that WILL deliver down to 10Hz or lower, check out "studio reference amps". Alesis and ART make them, as do a few others. Not very pricey either, in comparison to the stuff the HT people are used to seeing.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

So in other words, the short version is other than the exquisite front panel and gauges, I wouldn't gain anything by buying a 5k classe, vs a more cost effective used amp. At this point it seems the Yamaha would be a great choice and any shortcomings would be from my onkyo 808 as a processor.(and my room of course) My first focus is dynamic, accurate music playback, as it is my opinion that movie accuracy and dynamics will follow suit. Btw, thanks for chiming in.


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

I ordered a Crown XLS-1500 this afternoon to try out on my KLF-20's. This ought to be interesting. I'm going to try it with the RCA's first then decide whether to buy XLR's for it. Ah, I know I'll end up with the XLR's anyway so I may as well go ahead and order them from BJC.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

willis7469 said:


> So in other words, the short version is other than the exquisite front panel and gauges, I wouldn't gain anything by buying a 5k classe, vs a more cost effective used amp. At this point it seems the Yamaha would be a great choice and any shortcomings would be from my onkyo 808 as a processor.(and my room of course) My first focus is dynamic, accurate music playback, as it is my opinion that movie accuracy and dynamics will follow suit. Btw, thanks for chiming in.


I can't say you "wouldn't gain anything"... but if you want "dynamic and accurate", pro amps are a perfectly good way to go. That's the only thing they're in business to do. With a few exceptions, you won't hardly find a pro amp that won't sound good in your living room. (I can name brands no pro-audio guy would want to be caught dead with, but the HTS rules specifically forbid trash-talking brands/products etc). If you spend a ton of money on a well-built tube amp, you're going to have a different experience than with an industrial-grade solid state amp. Better? Maybe... that depends on what you like. Can you hear differences between Class A, B, A/B, D, and T amps? Sure. Whether or not you care is a different story. But the pro-audio industry is interested in minimizing power consumption and weight without losing signal quality... so you're not going to find a rock and roll tour rolling around with racks full of tube amps. They're heavy, fragile, and not as efficient watt-for-watt as a Class D amp (but they sound nice). Class T amps are even more efficient, but the technology is young and not yet up to par for the live concert setting. That's a matter of time, I think. 

The Yamaha P-series amps are great, but for my money I can get as clean a signal with just as much power from someone else... so I generally don't spec those. 

As for fancy faceplates... some of the pro-audio amps are downright ugly. I personally HATE the silver faceplates on the XLS DriveCore series. (The DriveCore2's are back to black... those have the 02 numbers). So I popped mine off and painted them black (at the expense of the labeling) and now they're much prettier. The Emo's, Adcoms, Marantz, etc... those are good-looking machines. Is that worth nothing? I don't think so... especially if you're the sort of end-user that has WAF to consider. I don't think the Yamaha P Series amps are going to win any beauty pageants... but you'd have to try to make one sound bad. 

If I could afford a $5K power amp, I'd be perfectly happy to do a shootout between one of those and a Crown, Crest, Yamaha, QSC, Ashly, or anything else and see what's what. But I'm probably never going to have one, and I don't think I'll ever miss it... so why spend the money?


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

All of these cudos for pro amplifiers has piqued my interest a bit.
I have never heard one in my stereo/home theater system so I have no clue what I would gain or what I am missing. Interesting.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

DqMcClain said:


> If you spend a ton of money on a well-built tube amp, you're going to have a different experience than with an industrial-grade solid state amp. Better? Maybe... that depends on what you like. Can you hear differences between Class A, B, A/B, D, and T amps? Sure. Whether or not you care is a different story.


:clap: Well said! Applause for impartial reporting! 




DqMcClain said:


> But the pro-audio industry is interested in minimizing power consumption and weight without losing signal quality... so you're not going to find a rock and roll tour rolling around with racks full of tube amps.


...except for some musicians who use them for their instruments. A Les Paul or Strat wailing away through an umbilical into a saturating Marshall stack is ear candy. Effects pedals, plugins, and/or pro amps may be able to mimic that raw sound, and I imagine anyone would be hard-pressed to tell the difference. :justdontknow:
Do the rockers use pro amps more for instruments, or for microphones (vocals)?



DqMcClain said:


> If I could afford a $5K power amp, I'd be perfectly happy to do a shootout between one of those and a Crown, Crest, Yamaha, QSC, Ashly, or anything else and see what's what. But I'm probably never going to have one, and I don't think I'll ever miss it... so why spend the money?


It's not a contest between pro and home, but here's an idea of what differences can be discerned (or not) between a few high-end amps. It's a lengthy but enjoyable read. IIRC, the take-away was that differences were minimal at best and could not be tagged as absolute improvements.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

Lumen said:


> :clap: Well said! Applause for impartial reporting!


I do what I can. Thanks. 





Lumen said:


> ...except for some musicians who use them for their instruments. A Les Paul or Strat wailing away through an umbilical into a saturating Marshall stack is ear candy. Effects pedals, plugins, and/or pro amps may be able to mimic that raw sound, and I imagine anyone would be hard-pressed to tell the difference. :justdontknow:
> Do the rockers use pro amps more for instruments, or for microphones (vocals)?


They absolutely DO use vintage/esoteric gear for the initial sound, and yes one CAN hear the difference between a saturated vac tube and a solid stage pedal mimic. But in that case, the gear is literally treated as a different department. Let's say you're on a huge rock&roll load in... like Lady Gaga (which I've done). If you're on the Audio crew, you'll spend your day running massive power and signal feeds, assembling line arrays, subwoofer arrays, getting all that gear in the air, etc. But once all that is done (or to a point where less labor is needed) either a separate crew or a breakout crew will start dealing with "backline"... which is musical instruments. That's where you see all the weird and fun stuff that actually produces the characteristic sound of the band. 

But that gear (depending on the size of the tour... Gaga was 36 trucks, AC/DC was 12) is usually in a separate truck, gets special handling, and has a dedicated technician supervising it. To give you an idea of just how differently that equipment is treated, I was on a load-in for Linkin Park and Prodigy a few years ago... after 6 hours of hanging a truly ridiculous Adamson rig, I got bumped to monitors, then backline. Once on backline, we were getting Prodigy set because they were the opening act. I've got a few cases full of Liam's keyboard/synth rig, and who's helping me set it up? Liam. The man who has to play all this stuff in 4 hours came out and built/cabled his own rig with a local tech (me) because it was _so specific_ that it was easier to help than to explain. He's a really nice guy, btw. 

BUT... after the sound they want is produced by whatever gear they need, the time comes when it must be loud enough for 20K+ people to hear it. A class-A tube amp with a maximum efficiency of 50% (50% of power is lost as heat) is absolutely unacceptable compared to a class-D amp at around 85%-90% efficiency. In your living room, it isn't a big deal... but when your rig is delivering 500kW, that efficiency rate translates to huge amounts of current. And the generators to produce it, and the feeder cable to transport it. All that adds up to money almost literally being burned. 




Lumen said:


> It's not a contest between pro and home, but here's an idea of what differences can be discerned (or not) between a few high-end amps. It's a lengthy but enjoyable read. IIRC, the take-away was that differences were minimal at best and could not be tagged as absolute improvements.


I know what I'll spend my free time today reading... Thanks!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

DqMcClain said:


> ... after the sound they want is produced by whatever gear they need, the time comes when it must be loud enough for 20K+ people to hear it. A class-A tube amp with a maximum efficiency of 50% (50% of power is lost as heat) is absolutely unacceptable compared to a class-D amp at around 85%-90% efficiency. In your living room, it isn't a big deal... but when your rig is delivering 500kW, that efficiency rate translates to huge amounts of current. And the generators to produce it, and the feeder cable to transport it. All that adds up to money almost literally being burned.


A very big thanks for the pro-amp explanation. It makes a lot more sense now. :T
Oh yeah.... I'm jealous - I still want to get THAT close to the music!


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

DqMcClain said:


> I can't say you "wouldn't gain anything"... but if you want "dynamic and accurate", pro amps are a perfectly good way to go. That's the only thing they're in business to do. With a few exceptions, you won't hardly find a pro amp that won't sound good in your living room. (I can name brands no pro-audio guy would want to be caught dead with, but the HTS rules specifically forbid trash-talking brands/products etc). If you spend a ton of money on a well-built tube amp, you're going to have a different experience than with an industrial-grade solid state amp. Better? Maybe... that depends on what you like. Can you hear differences between Class A, B, A/B, D, and T amps? Sure. Whether or not you care is a different story. But the pro-audio industry is interested in minimizing power consumption and weight without losing signal quality... so you're not going to find a rock and roll tour rolling around with racks full of tube amps. They're heavy, fragile, and not as efficient watt-for-watt as a Class D amp (but they sound nice). Class T amps are even more efficient, but the technology is young and not yet up to par for the live concert setting. That's a matter of time, I think.
> 
> The Yamaha P-series amps are great, but for my money I can get as clean a signal with just as much power from someone else... so I generally don't spec those.
> 
> ...


I really don't care what they look like, it's what they sound like that matters to me. My amps sit inside a small closet next to my rack so that takes care of the looks and possible fan noise. :bigsmile:


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

> I really don't care what they look like, it's what they sound like that matters to me. My amps sit inside a small closet next to my rack so that takes care of the looks and possible fan noise.


Good news then... you'll probably be pretty happy with that XLS 1500. Though FWIW, I haven't heard the fans in mine kick on yet. I'm not sure I could drive them hard enough to make it happen, either.


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

DqMcClain said:


> Good news then... you'll probably be pretty happy with that XLS 1500. Though FWIW, I haven't heard the fans in mine kick on yet. I'm not sure I could drive them hard enough to make it happen, either.


I just hope I have enough output voltage from the Marantz prepro to drive it without having to overreach on the gains. According to the manual it gives 1.2 from the RCA's and 2.4 from the XLR's. There is a function in the menu where I can increase analog or digital output.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

slovell said:


> I just hope I have enough output voltage from the Marantz prepro to drive it without having to overreach on the gains. According to the manual it gives 1.2 from the RCA's and 2.4 from the XLR's. There is a function in the menu where I can increase analog or digital output.


If you've got that kind of output and control on the Marantz, then I wouldn't worry about the input sensitivity on the Crown. Keep us posted on your findings!


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

DqMcClain said:


> If you've got that kind of output and control on the Marantz, then I wouldn't worry about the input sensitivity on the Crown. Keep us posted on your findings!


I'll have it sometime tomorrow. The output control in the menu does work. I raised the digital output a couple of db for my satellite receiver and I could definitely hear the increase.


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

Well where do I start? I'm undecided about the Crown. First of all I do have a lack of gain from the Marantz through the RCA's, I can get enough but I have to almost max out the adjustment in the Marantz and set the Crown's gains at 75%. At my previous settings for the Adcom 5500 I get 50% to 60% volume with the Crown. Having to use so much gain to compensate for the output voltage makes the Crown sound a bit tizzy and bright with the Klipschs which are on the bright side to begin with. The Crown should be easier to drive through the 2.4 volt XLR's. The Crown does make a lot of power but to my ears it lacks a fullness to the sound and the soundstage has less depth, vocals seem to be more recessed in the mix compared to the 5500 when playing music. Maybe this is a result of the overdriven gains? I a/b'd these two while playing a Donald Fagen track that I know quite well and the differences weren't slight or subtle. The Adcom filled the room and the Crown sounded as if everything was right in front of me. Inner detail was more noticeable with the Adcom, it was there with the Crown but was more distinct with the Adcom. In my opinion, for what it's worth, the Crown is a very good amp for the price, for $200 bucks it's a steal, but for music the 5500 kicked it out of the rack. I'm still going to pick up a pair of XLR cables and try it again with those before I decide whether to keep or return it.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

slovell said:


> Well where do I start? I'm undecided about the Crown. First of all I do have a lack of gain from the Marantz through the RCA's, I can get enough but I have to almost max out the adjustment in the Marantz and set the Crown's gains at 75%. At my previous settings for the Adcom 5500 I get 50% to 60% volume with the Crown. Having to use so much gain to compensate for the output voltage makes the Crown sound a bit tizzy and bright with the Klipschs which are on the bright side to begin with. The Crown should be easier to drive through the 2.4 volt XLR's. The Crown does make a lot of power but to my ears it lacks a fullness to the sound and the soundstage has less depth, vocals seem to be more recessed in the mix compared to the 5500 when playing music. Maybe this is a result of the overdriven gains? I a/b'd these two while playing a Donald Fagen track that I know quite well and the differences weren't slight or suttle. The Adcom filled the room and the Crown sounded as if everything was right in front of me. Inner detail was more noticeable with the Adcom, it was there with the Crown but was more distinct with the Adcom. In my opinion, for what it's worth, the Crown is a very good amp for the price, for $200 bucks it's a steal, but for music the 5500 kicked it out of the rack. I'm still going to pick up a pair of XLR cables and try it again with those before I decide whether to keep or return it.


I would try another pro amp... We demoed a Crown and a QSC years ago, and the QSC trounced on the Crown with a pair of ML Sequels (I can't remember the specifics as it was around the year 2000, but my friend was a Crown fan too until we compared the 2). I used to be a fan of Crown until that happened. The Yamaha P2500s amps were awesome IMO, and you can pick up a used one for $200-$250.


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

ellisr63 said:


> I would try another pro amp... We demoed a Crown and a QSC years ago, and the QSC trounced on the Crown with a pair of ML Sequels (I can't remember the specifics as it was around the year 2000, but my friend was a Crown fan too until we compared the 2). I used to be a fan of Crown until that happened. The Yamaha P2500s amps were awesome IMO, and you can pick up a used one for $200-$250.


Hi Ron,
I think I'm going to have my Adcoms serviced and leave it at that. I may have the 5500 modded by Musical Concepts although that's a bit expensive ($699) for an older amp. The 7000 is only used for the cc and surrounds so it would just get a standard service. When I a/b'd the 5500 next to the 1500 last night it really opened my ears. The Adcom bettered the Crown in every way and it's old and tired. Like me. But then again there's that Emotiva XPA-7 channel beast lurking around. I could sell both Adcoms and my tube amp and just about have enough to buy that 99 lb. monster and be done with it. 
Regards, Sam

How did your Sherbourn sale turn out?


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

slovell said:


> Hi Ron,
> I think I'm going to have my Adcoms serviced and leave it at that. I may have the 5500 modded by Musical Concepts although that's a bit expensive ($699) for an older amp. The 7000 is only used for the cc and surrounds so it would just get a standard service. When I a/b'd the 5500 next to the 1500 last night it really opened my ears. The Adcom bettered the Crown in every way and it's old and tired. Like me. But then again there's that Emotiva XPA-7 channel beast lurking around. I could sell both Adcoms and my tube amp and just about have enough to buy that 99 lb. monster and be done with it.
> Regards, Sam
> 
> How did your Sherbourn sale turn out?


Or you could by my Lexicon NT-512... which sounded as good as a Mark Levinson at the Dealer I purchased it from.:T


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

ellisr63 said:


> Or you could by my Lexicon NT-512... which sounded as good as a Mark Levinson at the Dealer I purchased it from.:T


I'm beginning to think you're not a good person and you're just using me. :foottap:


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

slovell said:


> I'm beginning to think you're not a good person and you're just using me. :foottap:


LOL I know my amp is out of your price range...just putting it out there.


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

slovell said:


> Hi Ron,
> I think I'm going to have my Adcoms serviced and leave it at that. I may have the 5500 modded by Musical Concepts although that's a bit expensive ($699) for an older amp. The 7000 is only used for the cc and surrounds so it would just get a standard service. When I a/b'd the 5500 next to the 1500 last night it really opened my ears. The Adcom bettered the Crown in every way and it's old and tired. Like me. But then again there's that Emotiva XPA-7 channel beast lurking around. I could sell both Adcoms and my tube amp and just about have enough to buy that 99 lb. monster and be done with it.
> Regards, Sam
> 
> How did your Sherbourn sale turn out?


I had musical concepts send me the parts to hot rod my amp and pre amp some time ago and once done they were unrecognizable. The differences were huge and I will never regret doing it. Especially the pre amp which got a new power supply. I would choose this option. :T


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

Savjac said:


> I had musical concepts send me the parts to hot rod my amp and pre amp some time ago and once done they were unrecognizable. The differences were huge and I will never regret doing it. Especially the pre amp which got a new power supply. I would choose this option. :T


It's good to hear that, I think that's what I'm going to do. After listening to the Crown I was pleasantly surprised how much life is left in the Adcom. They built some great amps for the price back in the day when my 5500 was built. Musical Concepts said their average turn around time is two to three weeks, not bad.


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

ellisr63 said:


> LOL I know my amp is out of your price range...just putting it out there.


I could probably afford it, but I wouldn't survive it. My wife would kill me then use my gear money for funeral costs. :gulp:


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

slovell said:


> Well where do I start? I'm undecided about the Crown. First of all I do have a lack of gain from the Marantz through the RCA's, I can get enough but I have to almost max out the adjustment in the Marantz and set the Crown's gains at 75%. At my previous settings for the Adcom 5500 I get 50% to 60% volume with the Crown. Having to use so much gain to compensate for the output voltage makes the Crown sound a bit tizzy and bright with the Klipschs which are on the bright side to begin with. The Crown should be easier to drive through the 2.4 volt XLR's. The Crown does make a lot of power but to my ears it lacks a fullness to the sound and the soundstage has less depth, vocals seem to be more recessed in the mix compared to the 5500 when playing music. Maybe this is a result of the overdriven gains? I a/b'd these two while playing a Donald Fagen track that I know quite well and the differences weren't slight or subtle. The Adcom filled the room and the Crown sounded as if everything was right in front of me. Inner detail was more noticeable with the Adcom, it was there with the Crown but was more distinct with the Adcom. In my opinion, for what it's worth, the Crown is a very good amp for the price, for $200 bucks it's a steal, but for music the 5500 kicked it out of the rack. I'm still going to pick up a pair of XLR cables and try it again with those before I decide whether to keep or return it.


An extremely fair-minded assessment. Definitely try the XLR interconnects... if that alters your gain structure to the point where you're not pushing the Marantz so hard, you might have a better experience. 

But you also hit the nail on the head. That Crown costs $200. And while the Adcom sounds better, how much would that amp cost if you didn't already own it? Does it sound enough better to justify the difference in cost? Some people will always say yes, and others will always say no... any reasonable person will judge based on the evidence presented. 

Also... running a pro amp's gains at 75% is pretty normal. I usually float mine between 75% and 85%, depending on stuff. Those amps are typically designed to be run with the outputs wide open, and have the final output volume controlled at the source (a mixing console). Don't be shy about turning up those knobs. There are plenty of pro amps that don't even _have_ knobs on the front because they assume you're going to adjust gain structure ahead of time. (The Crown ComTech series only has an input attenuation knob, and it's on the back side... set it and forget it)


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

DqMcClain said:


> An extremely fair-minded assessment. Definitely try the XLR interconnects... if that alters your gain structure to the point where you're not pushing the Marantz so hard, you might have a better experience.
> 
> But you also hit the nail on the head. That Crown costs $200. And while the Adcom sounds better, how much would that amp cost if you didn't already own it? Does it sound enough better to justify the difference in cost? Some people will always say yes, and others will always say no... any reasonable person will judge based on the evidence presented.
> 
> Also... running a pro amp's gains at 75% is pretty normal. I usually float mine between 75% and 85%, depending on stuff. Those amps are typically designed to be run with the outputs wide open, and have the final output volume controlled at the source (a mixing console). Don't be shy about turning up those knobs. There are plenty of pro amps that don't even _have_ knobs on the front because they assume you're going to adjust gain structure ahead of time. (The Crown ComTech series only has an input attenuation knob, and it's on the back side... set it and forget it)


I'm always hesitant to run anything electronic maxxed out, makes things smell bad, smoke, and go bye-bye.
Having said that, I'll take your advice, as I'm not familiar with pro gear, and try it.

I think the Adcom GFA-5500 was $1100 in early/mid 90's money so it's at least double that today. That, in itself, makes the service/upgrade option very attractive and probably what I'll do. But that doesn't mean that I'm giving up on the Crown, it'll be fun getting everything I can get out of this $200 amp. Giant killer? Maybe not, but it will certainly chew up the giants knees.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

If you're talking about consumer grade equipment, yeah... cranking things all the way up is pretty much always a bad plan. 

I'm curious now how my current XLS amps stack up against the old x02-D series XLS amps. The differences you're hearing could very well be the switch-mode power supply in the newer amp vs the toroidal transformer in the older amp. Unfortunately, I sold my old XLS-202's when I got the XLS-1000's... I might have to go get another just to see.

Edit: $140 used on Amazon right now... highly temping.


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## slovell (Sep 27, 2015)

DqMcClain said:


> If you're talking about consumer grade equipment, yeah... cranking things all the way up is pretty much always a bad plan.
> 
> I'm curious now how my current XLS amps stack up against the old x02-D series XLS amps. The differences you're hearing could very well be the switch-mode power supply in the newer amp vs the toroidal transformer in the older amp. Unfortunately, I sold my old XLS-202's when I got the XLS-1000's... I might have to go get another just to see.
> 
> Edit: $140 used on Amazon right now... highly temping.


The 1500 is supposed to be quieter and I believe that. Even with the gains cranked to ludicrous speed I didn't hear any hiss and I've got horns.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

slovell said:


> Hi Ron,
> 
> How did your Sherbourn sale turn out?


I have 3 people now looking at the Sherbourn, and Lexicon. First guy is having problems with his PayPal account... Whoever comes up with the cash first is the one who will get it.:T


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

slovell, thanks for your impressions of the crown. After shopping for Adcoms, and Yamaha pro amps, I found the crowns were available for less than either of the former two. Your impressions could be an indicator of why. Ron, I missed out on a 3500, and a 2500 today by just a hair. Kinda bummed, but I'm wrestling with other things at the moment so I'll just keep watchin.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> slovell, thanks for your impressions of the crown. After shopping for Adcoms, and Yamaha pro amps, I found the crowns were available for less than either of the former two. Your impressions could be an indicator of why. Ron, I missed out on a 3500, and a 2500 today by just a hair. Kinda bummed, but I'm wrestling with other things at the moment so I'll just keep watchin.


Try Bidsniper or one of the other eBay snipers. I used to loose a lot of bids, and when I did win I believe I drove the price up by bidding too soon. With a Sniper you put in the max bid, and then in the last few seconds it puts your max bid in giving you a lot better chance of winning for less than your max bid. If you use a sniper...do NOT make a bid prior to sniping or you will let everyone know there is more interest in the product. Once i set up a sniper I select unwatch from the eBay page to make it look like there is less interest. :T


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

ellisr63 said:


> Try Bidsniper or one of the other eBay snipers. I used to loose a lot of bids, and when I did win I believe I drove the price up by bidding too soon. With a Sniper you put in the max bid, and then in the last few seconds it puts your max bid in giving you a lot better chance of winning for less than your max bid. If you use a sniper...do NOT make a bid prior to sniping or you will let everyone know there is more interest in the product. Once i set up a sniper I select unwatch from the eBay page to make it look like there is less interest. :T


HA HA!!! I love this. Never knew about it. thanks. I'll let you know if I score one. I'm really pumped even though my money would likely be better spent by treating my room. My wife has tolerated my slowly adding more speakers/subs and stuff over the years, but room treatments are a nearly impossible sale. I'm just holding out til I can do a dedicated room. I know that will be a while. Or 2...


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

willis7469 said:


> HA HA!!! I love this. Never knew about it. thanks. I'll let you know if I score one. I'm really pumped even though* my money would likely be better spent by treating my room.* My wife has tolerated my slowly adding more speakers/subs and stuff over the years, but room treatments are a nearly impossible sale. I'm just holding out til I can do a dedicated room. I know that will be a while. Or 2...


THIS! Room treatment! $100 in acoustic foam is worth $1000 in speakers (or amps or processing). Soften up those hard surfaces, tame the bass in those corners, absorb those reflections, and break up those standing waves. It's the best money you'll ever spend on your listening space.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

willis7469 said:


> slovell, thanks for your impressions of the crown. After shopping for Adcoms, and Yamaha pro amps, I found the crowns were available for less than either of the former two. Your impressions could be an indicator of why. Ron, I missed out on a 3500, and a 2500 today by just a hair. Kinda bummed, but I'm wrestling with other things at the moment so I'll just keep watchin.



Crown VS Yamaha... the XLS series amps are in a product category in which Yamaha doesn't really have an entry. Considering the following points:

From the spec sheets, the measurement techniques are pretty similar, so it's fair to compare many of the specs 1-to-1. 

The Crown XLS 1000 and 1500 models sandwich the power ratings for the Yamaha P2500S, with the XLS1000 slightly lower and the XLS1500 slightly higher.

Crown XLS has a slightly better S/N ratio, but the Yamaha has the Crown beat by a significant margin in terms of IMD and THD, and under stricter conditions. And though 0.1% - 0.3% IMD or THD is still _technically_ inaudible, that may very will translate to the listening impressions and differences therein. 

Yamaha also lists a frequency response of 20Hz-50kHz, vs Crown's 20Hz - 20kHz, though the Yamaha has a wider margin than Crown (+0dB, -1.5dB vs +0dB, 1dB, respectively). 

Yamaha also claims a power bandwidth from 10Hz up to 40kHz, while Crown does not list this spec.

The P2500S also costs twice what the XLS1500 does... the cost difference can be found in the distortion and frequency response/power bandwidth specs, and (in no small part) the Net Weight. 

the P2500S weighs in at 30.9lbs, vs the XLS1500 at 8.6lbs. That's 20lbs of copper you're paying for in the toroidal transformer that makes up the Yamaha power supply. The Crown has the switch-mode power supply. The biggest difference between the two, aside from weight, is the availability of power. The toroidal supplies just have power, vs the switch-mode supplies which have power only when you ask for it. It's like the difference between driving a Mustang GT (Or a Camaro SS or a Challenger R/T... don't want to leave anyone out) and a Mazda RX-8, a Honda S2000, or a Subaru WRX. They're all reasonably fast cars, but they arrive at "fast" in very different ways. The bigger displacement motor has the power waiting for you, and gobs of torque... but the smaller motor, running really fast and/or with monstrous amounts of compression, has to be asked. (And asking an S2000 or an RX-8 for torque is an exercise in futility)

NOTE: the motor/car analogy is imperfect, and intended only as an illustration. 

So we're comparing a muscle car (P2500S) to a compact sports car (XLS1500). The comparison isn't really fair because the design goals of each are very different, and require very different approaches. How well each one does depends strongly on what you ask it to do. 

I'd absolutely believe, based on the specs and my knowledge of the construction of these two amps, that the Yamaha is better suited to extreme hi-fi use. It's also twice the price. 

I'll add a P2500 to my list of things to buy, (after a dry-cut steel cutting saw, a Traeger bbq/smoker, a 6" planer, and epoxy-coated concrete floors) and have a death-match with an XLS. Should be fun.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Very good reply mr McClain. That all makes sense to me. I can especially relate to the musclecar analogy. Even though it's not perfect as you said. I'm still watching and waiting, and for the money, the Yamaha looks like a great investment. As for the room treatments, I need to be very creative, and I just haven't come up with the right thing yet.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Update:
Pulled the trigger on a Yamaha p2500s. Including removing the rack ears, and level matching, it was installed in about 7minutes. The kids and I have the house for the weekend so I'll get some QT then. So far so good. The best part MR McClain, was pulling this out of the garage while waiting(like a baby) for ups! 
Hi Wayne.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Willis7469. Starring in... Beyond Powerdome! Sweet. :bigsmile: 
Just promise us you won't mount the new amp as a hood ornament!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Lou, you're hilarious. I would however probably appear in any movie that someone would let me in. Lol. I'd even bring the car lol. Hood ornament? No. Amps are heavy, and not aerodynamic. Sheesh... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

Willis, as I once heard a Doctor say... "Bowties are cool." 

How does the P2500 sound???


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I love me a good bow tie!
As for the 2500, I'm reserving judgement until I can really spend some time with it. I've only gotten through some tv and very little music. So far though, I would say it's very linear and transparent. If anything, sounds are more alive and have better resolution, but as you know, these are subtle effects. I will definitely report back. Thanks for asking. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> I love me a good bow tie!
> As for the 2500, I'm reserving judgement until I can really spend some time with it. I've only gotten through some tv and very little music. So far though, I would say it's very linear and transparent. If anything, sounds are more alive and have better resolution, but as you know, these are subtle effects. I will definitely report back. Thanks for asking.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:foottap:onder::whistling: Waiting to hear the definitive answer...


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

ellisr63 said:


> :foottap:onder::whistling: Waiting to hear the definitive answer...



Lol! As much as I'd love to report something amazing, the only real test I've given it so far is watching age of ultron. Having no other comparison for the soundtrack, I will say it was completely effortless in its presentation. The whole thing was clean and dynamic, and palpable. This week won't give me much time but this weekend will. I do have some hiss at a foot or so away from the speaker. I set the gain my avr was trimmed at -.5. I did this to stay under 0. The next click back makes the trim go to +2.5 to be at 75db, iirc. I will try that to see if it goes away. So far, so good. I'm excited to really test it out this weekend. 
Thank Ron!


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