# CSS SDX10 Kit help



## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

My css sdx quartet 10 kit arrived. I built an enclosure identical to the one Mike P. built. Also exactly as CSS recommended, an 18" cube. 

I added 6 weight disk per APR. 

Something is not right. The sub is stroking hard and the PR's are barely moving. I watched the matrix revolutions and the first 10 seconds of the movie I thought I blew the sub. Massive excursion and very little output. My room is only 15x15.

It sounds pretty smooth with music, especially country, which I don't care to listen to! However, i was looking for a little more punch for music.

I decided to pull all the weight disk from both PR's. At this point, the sub sounds a little better, with a more equal share of work from the sub and PR's.

Any suggestions. Just a little disappointed ATM:sad:


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## Rodny Alvarez (Apr 25, 2006)

Have you check the crossover at the amp and the receiver??

How about the phase on the amp?

where's the sub located?

:bigsmile:


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

The crossover on my pioneer 918 is set at 80. The knob on the bash amp has been set at every position possible. right now it is 150 or whatever the highest is. I originally used the lfe input on the bash amp, but now have used a splitter and using l and r channels. At first I thought that LFE input was disabling the bass boost and hpf. 

I have played with the phase and notice no difference. 

The placement is halfway down a wall and the near the left channel. The tv and mains are cadiwompised . See pic below. S=sub L,R=mains tv=TV C=couch

-------SSS-----L\
|-----------------tv
|--------C-------- R\
|----------C --------|
|--------------------|
|--------------------|
-------------------

Whats weird is, the winisd model shows a very weird graph with 0 grams added to the PR's. However as I play with it right now, It sounds pretty good with no weights and there is no way I will get close to 6 disks per PR again. It just sucked.
Oh yeah, replayed matrix rev. opening seen , the sub did not bottom out as before, but output is a major issue.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

Either something is wrong or your expectations are too high. Let's try to narrow it down. Are you sure there is no air leaks? The cabinet is well sealed and the sub and PR's were mounted with a weatherstripping foam tape?


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

I feel like the box is sealed very well. I did not use weather stripping for the woofers. I feel no airleaks, but who knows? Do you think the weatherstripping could make a difference?

I have done lots of listening this AM. Right now it sounds very good. I had made no adjustments, other than small adjustments to the volume knob on the bash amp, and all of a sudden it just started to sound good. Maybe, it just needed breaking in? With hip hop/rap music, the room filled nicely with resonating bass. Nice, "semi-tight" and controlled. I listened to metallica and the double bass was accurate and clean. Still not quite the "impact" I am looking, but does sound good. (all of this listening is done with 0 weight disks per woofer.)

I have also done more experimenting with the weight disks. I went with 3 disks per woofer, and sounded a little over damped, but I could tell there was lower tuning. however, spl suffered moderately and I lost nearly all impact.

Right now 1 weight disk per woofer is a good blend for me as far as impact and low tune goes. I just can't imagine why the recommended 6 disks per woofer is not even close to working properly.

Added-
Movie playback is good but sometimes during explosions and what not the sub looses control and bottoms. I don't think the bash amps subsonic filter is flexible enough. I think it needs to rolloff at 23-25hz


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

Let's see if the sub is working properly or if there is a problem somewhere. Download 2 test tones and play them through the sub. A 22 hz test tone should cause the PR's to work hard while the sub moves very little. A 30 hz tone should make the sub work hard and the PR's to move a little bit.

This test is with 6 washers added to each PR.


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

I ran the test tones and at 20-22 range, the sub was moving a little and the pr's were moving more. At 30 the the Sub was moving more than the PR's. I wish you had the matrix revolutions. I would like to see if your sub bottoms like mother on that track.


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

I am starting to think the amp may not have been modified for the 21.4hz highpass. How can I ensure the HP filter is correct?


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

The results of the test say the sub is performing as it should with the proper high pass filter. Below is the cone excursion graph of the sub. As you can see with 300 watts the sub never exceeds Xmax. I suspect the "bottoming out" was really the amp clipping from being over driven. As far as wanting "slam in the chest", that's asking a lot from a 10 inch sub in your room size. Removing the washers created a large peak in the response at 50 hz (117+ db) resulting in the "impact" you described. 

That being said there is one thing you should check. I suggest you take the PR's out and inspect them thoroughly. Verify the PR's haven't come unglued at the surround, inspect the back side to make sure all is in order. Let me know what the findings are. Do you have a SPL meter?


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

The PR's looked good after removal. I do not have a meter but i think my buddy does. I will see if i can borrow it.


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

I have reloaded 6 disks per woofer. It sounds good but not as punchy as the 1 disk tune. However the 1 disk tune presents a sub over-excursion condition. I have yet to bottom the woofer with 1 disk, but i feel it is inevitable

With the six disk tune, I am still have trouble with, what Mike P. thinks, ampilfier clipping. At the moment I have the Receiver set a +-0 db channel level. The bash amp is set at ~1/2 volume. With this setup, output is moderate and when watching movies during a bang or a bomb, i think clipping is occuring. Sounds like a hacksaw running across the voice coil. If I cut the bash volume down much more I will not even be able to hear the sub. At the moment my 150 watt infinty 10" ported spanks this puppy. I truly thought this beefy driver with double the power would exceed the infinity in all aspects.:huh:


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

The one disc tuning creates a 114 db peak at 40 hz which seems "punchy". The Infinity sub probably has no output below 35 hz while the CSS sub will produce 106 db down to 23 hz. It appears the sub can't produce the levels you are expecting in this size room. I'll do some modeling and see if I can find a solution.


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

Thanks mike. I cut some solid panels to close in the pr holes as well. This yielded a .58 qtc. or so sealed box. In my opinion not the best for the "punch" i am looking. This test was a failure. I did not like it. Mike I am willing to lose a little low end extension. More interested in good music playback.

The reason I wanted to try the PR's is because back in the day my dad had some polk audio monitor 10's. I corner loaded one of these suckers with the 6.5" woofers and PR facing the corner. This thing hit like all get out. I mean I had a hard time breathing. This was done on a 65 wpc onkyo stereo receiver. I really thought I could emulate the sound and perhaps surpass it. Not close!!


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

Try 2 washers per PR. The sub would exceed Xmax by a bit but shouldn't bottom out. If the amp clips, turn it down a bit. If that doesn't work for you then you need a bigger sub for the levels you're looking for.


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

Don't get me wrong, the css kit is smooth and very accurate. If I had testing equipment I bet it would be a good curve. However, for me it is more about creating the sound I want more than what the numbers say.

By the sounds of what I want, what db level are we talking and what size sub and power do i need. 

My buddy has the dayton titanic sealed 15" w/ hpsa1000. It is in a huge room, maybe 24x30x12. It hits really hard, fast and tight. I helped him set it up and to get the output to his liking, we had to corner load the sub and face the woofer towards one of the walls. This is the baddest (as in good) home sub I have ever heard. 

I am fearful of a sealed sub because of the location where the sub has to be located. For WAF, the sub must be in the location shown above, or on the other wall near the right channel.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

What size box was the Titanic in?


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

roughly a 19.125" cube. maybe 3 ft^3. It is the one that comes with the kit at parts express.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

If it hit really hard, fast and tight in a 24x30x12 room it would work in your smaller room. And you know what it sounds like.


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

Mike, thanks for hangin with me with this. 

I have left the 6 disk tuneup and tuned my receiver and amp gain, and this sucker rocks. Originally I had my receiver channel level at +5. It clipped badly which at the time I thought the sub was bottoming. It was just the +5 with high gain on the amp. Now I have the gain turned on down and the channel level jacked up. Now I don't play my mains so high to get solid bass output. i bet the receiver thd was through the roof at uber-high volume levels, not helping with amp clipping. 

Anyway, this setup provides mind boggling accurate bass. Yeah, I see the difference now between this and the infinity. Output is still a little lower than what i anticipated, but now that I have it 'tuned', the system blends beautifully and there are nasty room rattles. BTW I am running polk rti4 bookshelfs with the matching polk center. Just a 3.1 system ATM. 

In the long run, I think I will be more satisfied with this than a 15 with a 1000 watts. If there was an sdx12 kit that would be very tempting. In know there is an SD 12 kit. I wonder what thhe difference between sd and sdx series.

My friend has the RS db meter. I will get it this week, and maybe you guys can help a newbie get a rough in room response chart. I will pick up my other friends bass mechanic cd-I think it is loaded with test tones, sweeps, etc.:bigsmile:


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

Glad to hear things are working out. Any chance you can put the sub in a corner to see what the difference in output would be?


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

Mike I have a graph I would like you to look at, but my print screen button does not work. Can I send you the winisd project file and have you post it.. I have an interesting graph with a 24 hz tune vented enclosure with a little eq work.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

PM sent.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

Here's your modeling of ported and passive radiators.


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

Thanks Mike, the highpass and lowpass filters must be disabled on the PR graph. It does not look like mine.

On mine with all filters and eq enabled, the vented box has 2-4 db gain from 24-80 hz 
How does this ported alignment look to you. I would need at least 3 bands of peq for this output. Is that too much eq'ing. Also have not decided on port length or sizing. It may have to be TL'ish in design.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

I'll take a closer look at the modeling tomorrow when I get a free moment.


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

Here's a comparison of the two. The orange PR model had the high pass changed from 2nd order 21.4 hz to 3rd order 20.4 hz as that is what the amp came with. The low pass filter in both models was changed to 4th order as that is what most receivers have. Do you have a PEQ unit in mind to supply the custom HPF and EQ of the ported model?


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

No eq yet, but I am not opposed to getting a bfd if this vented alignment is worth it. I have also been reading up on folded horns. What would you recommend, eq and alignment wise?


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

The alignment works if you can get the EQ to do its thing. I'm not familiar with the BFD, hopefully someone else will jump in here.


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## focusrocker (Jan 1, 2009)

So I have still not received the spl meter from my buddy. In the meantime I have cut two pieces of mdf to cover the passive radiator mounting holes. I then installed 3 2"x10" ports on EACH side of the box. Thats right, 6 2 inch ports:R. This was the best option for me to test out a ported enclosure with this sub.

the volume after port displacement is about 2.33ft^2, tuned to around 24-25hz.

This configuration provided a better blend as well as musicality. I now have almost the "impact" I was looking. There was a compromise however. This vented alignment does not go as low as the PR design. And I kinda miss that! A matter a fact, if I were to keep this setup, I would need to change the HPF in the Bash amp. On very low material, the sub is "unloading".

I feel like the PR design played very low, very well, but I am going to say from 40-80 hz there was a lull in the system response. This observation comes from no technical measurement. Just my ears. I think there was some phasing issues going on with the PR design in my room. The subs made fast quick movement with 40-80hz material, but little sound was emitted. 


I will now build a new enclosure for final placement. Should I continue here or start a new thread of the build?


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## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

Different sub, new thread. :T


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