# Subwoofer Volume Level?



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Hello to all,
I have a legacy onkyo receiver which I don't put much stock in it's room correction process, so matched all speaker levels manually with SPL meter, my question when calibrating the sub with test tone where should I have the master volume set on the sub when I take the reading on my SPL meter? This may sound dumb but why is 75dB the standard for speaker levels? Thanks guys as always.
Jeff


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

When producers mix the audio this is the standard level that they want to reach for optimal sound on all channels to envelop the listener. 75db is not going to cause hearing loss at the listening position unless your listening at that level continuously. There will be peaks higher then 75 db but for setting up the speakers this is what you want to be able to maintain without distortion.


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> When producers mix the audio this is the standard level that they want to reach for optimal sound on all channels to envelop the listener. 75db is not going to cause hearing loss at the listening position unless your listening at that level continuously. There will be peaks higher then 75 db but for setting up the speakers this is what you want to be able to maintain without distortion.


Thanks Tony for the 75dB reference, could you please answer the other part of my question, when calibrating spl level for sub where should I have the sub's master volume setting, ie 1/4, 1/2, etc. position? Thanks my friend.
Jeff


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Hi Jeff. Generally about halfway is a good starting position and use the receivers level control to fine tune the level. Also make sure that the subs crossover setting is at its highest setting. The receivers room setup will adjust this on its own.


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> Hi Jeff. Generally about halfway is a good starting position and use the receivers level control to fine tune the level. Also make sure that the subs crossover setting is at its highest setting. The receivers room setup will adjust this on its own.


Thanks Tony, I appreciate all the help you have offered in the time I have been a member here at the shack, always good stuff from you. I have an Epik sub and the LFE input auto defeats the sub's xover so I don't have to have it at it's highest setting. The reason I asked where to start with the sub's volume setting is that I did start at halfway and fine tuned it with the receiver's level control and with the other speakers at 75dB reference my sub's level is -7dB, does this sound right to you, the mains are at +1 center +2 and surrounds +2.Thanks again my friend.
Jeff


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

No problem, thats what we are here for is to help in the areas that we have knowledge. Generally speaking the auto room setups tends to set the levels a bit low. I usually use an SPL meter to confirm that the level is in deed right but I myself like my Sub to be a little on the hot side. -7 is ok if it reads ok on the SPL meter then no worries.


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> No problem, thats what we are here for is to help in the areas that we have knowledge. Generally speaking the auto room setups tends to set the levels a bit low. I usually use an SPL meter to confirm that the level is in deed right but I myself like my Sub to be a little on the hot side. -7 is ok if it reads ok on the SPL meter then no worries.


Thanks Tony for your knowledge, the auto room setup was vastly different from the levels that I set manually with a SPL meter, I too like to run my sub a little hot around 80dB. You have to consider that my legacy On kyo does not have the more advanced Audussey room correction process, it is quite antiquated by todays standard, I'm ready to make the move and get the Onkyo TX-NR809, my receiver is over 7 years old, but the amp section is beefy and draws more current (8.1 amps) than most newer Onkyo receivers but as far as video and audio processing it is way behind the current crop of AVR receivers. I may go with the 709 because I have external amps and primarily I'd be using the 709 as a pre/pro and it offers all the video and audio processing I'll ever need. Thanks again Tony.
Jeff


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I agree with your assessment of the Onkyo 709 Its is the best bang for buck and just using it as a pre pro. Not many if any receivers give you as much as the 709 for that price.
Enjoy your setup, isn't home theatre fun


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> I agree with your assessment of the Onkyo 709 Its is the best bang for buck and just using it as a pre pro. Not many if any receivers give you as much as the 709 for that price.
> Enjoy your setup, isn't home theatre fun


You got it brother.....enjoy


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

The only problem with using an SPL meter to set sub levels is, what if you've got a suckout at the test tone frequency.

I would make sure my frequency response was reliable enough to do level matching.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

GranteedEV said:


> The only problem with using an SPL meter to set sub levels is, what if you've got a suckout at the test tone frequency.
> 
> I would make sure my frequency response was reliable enough to do level matching.


You should be using pink noise, not a test tone then thats not an issue.


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> You should be using pink noise, not a test tone then thats not an issue.


I dunno about that. In a room, a sub can still have some really wild swings in response. Until you know you don't have any major dips or peaks near the crossover region that will hurt integration, I don't know how to decide.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

yes but the sub needs to be moved boosting the level is not the fix for that problem. We are talking integrating the sub with the mains for overall balance. Pink noise is the proper way to achieve this.


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

GranteedEV said:


> The only problem with using an SPL meter to set sub levels is, what if you've got a suckout at the test tone frequency.
> 
> I would make sure my frequency response was reliable enough to do level matching.


Grant, what do you suggest I do, how do I know if I have a suckout at the TT freq.? Are you suggesting that I rely on auto setup, my receiver is seven years old. I'm really curious what aternatives I have besides using the SPL meter?
Thanks Jeff


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> yes but the sub needs to be moved boosting the level is not the fix for that problem. We are talking integrating the sub with the mains for overall balance. Pink noise is the proper way to achieve this.



I think we agree. I was pointing out that using an SPL meter will not be enough to get the mains and sub integrated. You really need good in room bass response/placement of both the mains and subwoofer if you want them to blend effectively. If the mains have are flat the crossover frequency, and the sub has a 10db room peak, then the crossover may be audible, even if the SPL meter tells you the levels are "matched".

My approach would be to use a measurement microphone to find placement that does the least violence in the crossover region to either the .speaker's bass a half octave above the crossover and the sub's bass a half octave below the crossover.

Then measure the response again until the response of the mains crossed to the sub sums to reasonably flat in the region from 60hz to 120hz. Don't just assume the speakers sum acoustically because they're set to 75db or what-have you based on the test tones or pink noise.

you want the crossover region to be what's level matched.

needspeed52: as for a dated auto setup vs spl meter, I can't say. Neither will give the correct time/phase information to your receiver for setting distances. Again, experiment with different distances and levels in the setup menu until you get good measured acoustic response in the crossover region. Even if that means a sub that's only 2m away has to be listed as 5m away - because there are other delays in the signal and room effects which affect the theoretical "distance".

It may be time to shell out a decent $350 for a decent new receiver like this one but even then you want the ability to see for yourself what's going on.

Neither simple pink noise nor autometic setup alone can integrate your system optimally. The auto setup helps a lot though. Ultimately I feel the most invaluable thing in intergration is a measurement microphone and the ability to measure in high resolution from 20hz to 200hz.


----------



## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

To level match the speakers you need to keep the SPL meter stationary, even a few inches makes a measurable difference.
A tripod works best but a broom handle and tape work just fine too.
Position yourself so you can read the meter (do not be between any speaker and the meter) and use the AVR test noise and channel trims to set the levels.
This should result in perfectly matched SPL for all speaker channels at the meter position.
With the sub volume off, set the sub trim in the AVR to the same level as the front main speakers.
Send the test noise to the sub, adjust the volume control on the subwoofer until you are at the desired level on the SPL meter.
This should result in perfectly matched SPL (or xxdB hot) for the sub at the meter position.


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

GranteedEV said:


> I think we agree. I was pointing out that using an SPL meter will not be enough to get the mains and sub integrated. You really need good in room bass response/placement of both the mains and subwoofer if you want them to blend effectively. If the mains have are flat the crossover frequency, and the sub has a 10db room peak, then the crossover may be audible, even if the SPL meter tells you the levels are "matched".
> 
> My approach would be to use a measurement microphone to find placement that does the least violence in the crossover region to either the .speaker's bass a half octave above the crossover and the sub's bass a half octave below the crossover.
> 
> ...



Grant, what are we talking $ for a measurement mic and what do you use to measure the mic's information, I have a Stereophile Test CD with pink noise which I don't know what can be achieved with this. A new receiver is in the making here real soon. Please excuse my ignorance of subject matter, I would like to explore as many options as possible but, quite frankly I don't know how to achieve the results you mentioned with the mic and taking measurements. Thanks my friend.
Jeff


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

needspeed52 said:


> Grant, what are we talking $ for a measurement mic and what do you use to measure the mic's information, I have a Stereophile Test CD with pink noise which I don't know what can be achieved with this. A new receiver is in the making here real soon. Please excuse my ignorance of subject matter, I would like to explore as many options as possible but, quite frankly I don't know how to achieve the results you mentioned with the mic and taking measurements. Thanks my friend.
> Jeff


Grant, could you explain good measurement results in the crossover region, thanks again.
Jeff


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

needspeed52 said:


> Grant, what are we talking $ for a measurement mic and what do you use to measure the mic's information,


Room EQ Wizard, available right here at HTS.

This is the measurement mic I use and this is the microphone preamp I use. You will also need a microphone cable such as this one.

As for what defines a good measurement, the main thing is that you don`t want any broad dips. You'll get a hang of it once you pick up a mic/preamp.

Adding a modern Audyssey XT32 receiver won't hurt, though.


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

GranteedEV said:


> Room EQ Wizard, available right here at HTS.
> 
> This is the measurement mic I use and this is the microphone preamp I use. You will also need a microphone cable such as this one.
> 
> ...


Grant, thanks for the info, I'm planning on getting the Onkyo TX-NR809, it does not have the XT32 but has a lot more room correction processing that I have now, I must admit I am intimidated with the Room EQ Wizard and mic and preamp routine, but it seems like a good way to achieve the best results, I have to think about this for awhile, I'm not very familiar with using these devices and installing the program on my PC which is close to my setup.
Jeff


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> yes but the sub needs to be moved boosting the level is not the fix for that problem. We are talking integrating the sub with the mains for overall balance. Pink noise is the proper way to achieve this.


Tony, what do you suggest for a Pink noise source to use for setting levels? Thanks.
Jeff


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The receiver has this noise built in does it not? Should be under "speaker settings, level settings" If not you can get Audio test CDs from most Music stores. Pink noise sounds kind of like static (she sound you hear when you tune a radio to a spot where there is no station).


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> The receiver has this noise built in does it not? Should be under "speaker settings, level settings" If not you can get Audio test CDs from most Music stores. Pink noise sounds kind of like static (she sound you hear when you tune a radio to a spot where there is no station).


Tony, yes the receiver does have this noise but I did not think it was pink noise, I thought a receiver's test tones were different than actual pink noise, I have a Stereophile test CD that does generate pink noise but I don't know how to incorporate it to level match each speaker.
Jeff


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The test tone that the receiver generates is sufficient to set levels, It should be full bandwidth pink noise as the sub would also have information sent to it that would be from 20 hz up to whatever the crossover is set at. Use your spl meter at the listening position to set the subs level so it is equal or slightly greater than the mains.


----------



## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> The test tone that the receiver generates is sufficient to set levels, It should be full bandwidth pink noise as the sub would also have information sent to it that would be from 20 hz up to whatever the crossover is set at. Use your spl meter at the listening position to set the subs level so it is equal or slightly greater than the mains.


Tony, I have done this, all speaker levels are set at 75dB with sub at about 78dB, I just don't know where to set the sub's volume before I start the pink noise, I have tried with sub volume at 12 oclock or halfway and end up with receiver level at about -6dB, I guess that's ok, it seems that mains and sub integration is pretty seamless with no LFE localization. Well I guess I'm done here, I will be starting another thread in the Loudspeaker forum and look forward to your and Grants input as well. Thanks guys.
Jeff


----------



## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

needspeed52 said:


> Tony, I have done this, all speaker levels are set at 75dB with sub at about 78dB, I just don't know where to set the sub's volume before I start the pink noise, I have tried with sub volume at 12 oclock or halfway and end up with receiver level at about -6dB, I guess that's ok, it seems that mains and sub integration is pretty seamless with no LFE localization. Well I guess I'm done here, I will be starting another thread in the Loudspeaker forum and look forward to your and Grants input as well. Thanks guys.
> Jeff


If you are using a SPL meter its really not difficult to find the right volume setting for the sub woofer.
With the main speakers set for 75dB output.
Set the sub woofer volume control to 0 (minimum).
In the AVR set the sub trim (channel level) to 0.
Send the pink noise to the sub.
Adjust the subwoofer volume control until you measure 75dB on the SPL meter.
You are done.
If you want the sub to be set XX # of dB hot set the sub trim (channel level) in the AVR up from 0 by that amount.


----------



## sga2 (Nov 14, 2009)

Alternatively, you can just set the sub volume to ~1/3 and adjust trim at AVR as required (a little more convenient since you can do that with your remote sitting next to the SPL meter). If you have to trim to one extreme or the other, adjust the sub's volume up or down as needed. Either way, same result.

Assuming, of course, that the AVR pre-out isn't clipping (too little amp gain and a poor AVR) or noise isn't being excessively amplified to the point of audibility (too much amp gain)


----------

