# 8th ANNUAL FLAT PANEL SHOOT-OUT



## Sonnie

*8th ANNUAL FLAT PANEL SHOOT-OUT*
*AT VALUE ELECTRONICS IN SCARSDALE, NY* 

*Video Experts Along with the Attending Audience Will Evaluate the Newest Flagship HD Panels*
*To Answer The Question: **Which Manufacturer Makes the Best Flat Panel HDTV?*​
*Schedule*: 
Day One, Saturday, May 19, 2012 5:00 PM
Day Two, Sunday, May 20, 2012 1:00 PM

*Place*: 
Value Electronics 108 Garth Rd, Scarsdale, NY 10583

*Phone*: 
Direct 914-723-3344 or 800-789-5050

*To attend in person email Robert Zohn*: 
[email protected] and put in the subject line, *Flat Panel Shootout Request*

*Displays in the evaluation*: 
Plasma models, Panasonic TC-P65VT50, Samsung PN64E8000, LG 60PM9700 LCD/LED models, Panasonic TC-L55WT50, Samsung UN60ES8000, Elite PRO-60X5FD, LG 60LM9600, and possibly Toshiba's new Cinema 55L7200 and Sony's XBR-65HX929.

*Plus one or possibly even two surprise displays!*

Seating will be limited and is exclusively available by email request. This is a private event for a/v enthusiast, the press and select invited industry experts and executives. Send your email request now if you are interested in learning about video technology and seeing first hand the world's best displays on one Shootout wall with our panel of distinguished experts doing the live review evaluation! The Flat Panel Shootout will also be available Online on both days. (Saturday & Sunday). The web address and logon info will be posted as soon as they are confirmed.

The Flat Panel Shootout will present this years newest displays from the leading manufacturers. The event will be a completely unbiased assessment of all the panels represented. The displays will be connected to a dedicated 20 amp circuit and a Richard Gray power conditioner. The HDMI cables are all 16' Key Digital Black Bull so all will be on a equal playing field.

Factory reps from Panasonic, Samsung, LG and Sharp's Elite group (and if Toshiba and Sony are included their reps will present their respective products) will present their panels, and make a presentation explaining their features and latest developments. Plus we have some Industry VIPs and some of the most highly respected video development engineers will be attending and presenting on the future of flat panel display technologies.

The Online live feed will be broadcast in HD and will allow viewers to submit questions which will be moderated by our staff a/v techs and select questions will be read out loud for our panel of experts to answer in realtime.

*Check back often to this thread for updates.


*


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## phazewolf

The set I want to see go up against that group would be the LG 55EM9600. There would be a shootout.


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## Robert Zohn

Sonnie, thanks for posting this.

phazewolf, stay tuned to this thread. We aim to please. :T

-Robert


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## rab-byte

Sounds good. We got the Samsung plasmas 50 and 59 for displays sent to us. Both seem to have issues with their component inputs. Will you be checking all input methods or just hdmi?


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks for bring up the issue and yes I'll check the component video inputs. Our PN51E8000 and PN51E6500 showroom demo display component video inputs work perfectly.

-Robert


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## rab-byte

Robert Zohn said:


> Thanks for bring up the issue and yes I'll check the component video inputs. Our PN51E8000 and PN51E6500 showroom demo display component video inputs work perfectly.
> 
> -Robert


Good to hear. It just strikes me as odd that both displays would have the same issue


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## DJG

Hmmm, maybe this will inspire Sharp to have the current Elite hiccups taken care of by then .


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## Robert Zohn

News Flash.....

The very well respected David Mackenzie — Senior Editor & Reviewer for HDTVtest will be participating at our Flat Panel Shootout event. David is from the UK and is flying in just to attend the event. 

David is one of the world's top TV reviewers and has helped many of the major display brands evaluate and help resolve bugs. David joins several other industry giants who will be surprise guests at the Flat Panel Shootout event.

I am very pleased to have David at our Shootout.

Don't miss the opportunity to be a part of the world's only Shootout evaluation of the flagship displays from Panasonic. Sharp, Sony, Samsung and LG. Request your seat now by emailing me at [email protected] Please write "Shootout seat request" in the subject line.

-Robert


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## tele1962

Thanks Robert, David and the rest of us are very excited about this years event.


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## David Mackenzie

Thanks Robert, I look forward to coming! Next month can't come quickly enough!


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## ALMFamily

Sigh, I knew I should not have volunteered to coach my son's baseball team - sounds like a great event! Are you taking reservations for the 9th annual yet?


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## mechman

ALMFamily said:


> Sigh, I knew I should not have volunteered to coach my son's baseball team - sounds like a great event! Are you taking reservations for the 9th annual yet?


Some things are more important.  I would not give up coaching hockey for any of this. :T


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## lcaillo

Hockey? I think that must be something like that snow stuff that is not understood by people of South Louisiana upbringing. Now baseball is something that us LSU boys get.


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## mechman

We really need to get you up here in mid January. Got a rink right next to my house and I think I can find some skates that will fit you. :devil:


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## DJG

This thread has gone totally off-tropic :sarcastic: ...


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## mjw

The 7th Annual shootout was October last year - is this becoming a semi-annual shootout Robert?


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## rmongiovi

Does anyone else think it's too bad Runco doesn't get in on this? I've been curious how they compare for a long time and you just don't hear much concrete about them. It would be interesting to get them on the floor as a level set....


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## rab-byte

Robert,
Can you take us through your evaluation method?

Also can you ask each of the reps to clearly explain what exactly their branded features do. That is clear explanations of "live color" "black correction" etc...?


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## DJG

rab-byte said:


> Robert,
> Can you take us through your evaluation method?
> 
> Also can you ask each of the reps to clearly explain what exactly their branded features do. That is clear explanations of "live color" "black correction" etc...?


You mean translate Marketese into English ...


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## Gregr

I knew I waited to buy for some good reason. :scratch:

Does this manufacturers line-up mean Vizio is not in contention and/or not bothering to compete. I know bottom dollar Wall-mart brand but it was a Sam's Club great buy a few years back. I've been very happy..., hopefully not in my ignorance, though I understand almost anything is as good as Vizio.

I look forward to the testing. Thanks!!!


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## rab-byte

DJG said:


> You mean translate Marketese into English ...


YES!!!


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## Robert Zohn

mjw said:


> The 7th Annual shootout was October last year - is this becoming a semi-annual shootout Robert?


No, we follow the TV manufacturers' model year introduction. Last year we had delays due to the mid-year introduction of the Elite TV and we had a slight further delay due to Kevin's illness.

-Robert



rmongiovi said:


> Does anyone else think it's too bad Runco doesn't get in on this? I've been curious how they compare for a long time and you just don't hear much concrete about them. It would be interesting to get them on the floor as a level set....


I've considered this every year. Here's my reservations. First is that I believe it's a Samsung pdp with Runco chassis and electronics plus the outboard scalier. Second, the market is so very small for a $10k 63" pdp that I feel the even a/v enthusiasts interests is very limited. The Flat Panel Shootout is geared towards enthusiasts and I am attending the Runco dealer meeting next Tuesday morning to discuss this as we are considering putting the Runco 63" pdp in the Shootout.

Stay tuned for one or two surprise displays to be included in the evaluation.

-Robert



rab-byte said:


> Robert,
> Can you take us through your evaluation method?
> 
> Also can you ask each of the reps to clearly explain what exactly their branded features do. That is clear explanations of "live color" "black correction" etc...?


It's best to leave this to Kevin Miller to answer, but the very brief answer is Kevin goes through a series of generated test patterns and examples of actual video content as he explains how to interpret the patterns related to each of the four attributes that contribute to picture quality. The Shootout runs for about 5 hours of mostly video technical teaching and evaluation as we have the attending audience vote on each of the picture quality attributes to determine who make the world's best display. 

-Robert


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## rmongiovi

Robert Zohn said:


> I've considered this every year. Here's my reservations. First is that I believe it's a Samsung pdp with Runco chassis and electronics plus the outboard scalier. Second, the market is so very small for a $10k 63" pdp that I feel the even a/v enthusiasts interests is very limited. The Flat Panel Shootout is geared towards enthusiasts and I am attending the Runco dealer meeting next Tuesday morning to discuss this as we are considering putting the Runco 63" pdp in the Shootout.


Well, to me it's not really a matter of whether or not the average enthusiast could afford to be interested in a Runco. It a question of what we can learn from Runco technology. What deficiencies of the Panasonic/Samsung processing does the Runco expose? What if the vt50 actually has a better picture than the Runco? If we don't compare how can we learn?
Roy


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## dsskid

There are wall space limitations as well, which was maxed out last year.


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## Robert Zohn

rmongiovi said:


> Well, to me it's not really a matter of whether or not the average enthusiast could afford to be interested in a Runco. It a question of what we can learn from Runco technology. What deficiencies of the Panasonic/Samsung processing does the Runco expose? What if the vt50 actually has a better picture than the Runco? If we don't compare how can we learn?
> Roy


I understand and because I feel you have a good point we are carefully considering it. Here's the few things the Runco or any other panel would have to pass and that is.

1. The very excellent scalar that comes with the panel, when properly set-up, gives the Runco a very distinct advantage in the final picture and if you put a quality scalar in front of any of the other panels, the performance would also greatly improve. So in my way of thinking the Runco looses its "potentially better" pq advantage to the scalar and since a scalar is not being used on the other panels, it's simply an unfair test and way too complicated to figure out to everyone's satisfaction than it's actually worth.

2. Now that I brought out the value and how it appeals to the biggest possible "a/v enthusiast" market segment, price points north of $10k have a very limited interest when compared to displays in the $2.5k to 4.5k price range. 

Regarding learning something from other suppliers I think the best lesson we would get is that it's smart to consider adding an external video processor in front of your display. 

-Robert



dsskid said:


> There are wall space limitations as well, which was maxed out last year.


We can actually perfectly fit up to eight 65" flat panels on the Flat Panel Shootout wall and one more up to 80" on the adjacent wall with a very good viewing position to the Shootout wall. At our October 2011 Shootout you might remember I had my personal PRO-141FD behind the western wall mural and that it was in good view of the Shootout wall. This year that location will hide one of our surprise displays!

-Robert


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## rmongiovi

Robert Zohn said:


> 1. The very excellent scalar that comes with the panel, when properly set-up, gives the Runco a very distinct advantage in the final picture and if you put a quality scalar in front of any of the other panels, the performance would also greatly improve. So in my way of thinking the Runco looses its "potentially better" pq advantage to the scalar and since a scalar is not being used on the other panels, it's simply an unfair test and way too complicated to figure out to everyone's satisfaction than it's actually worth.


Wouldn't that qualification be negligible if the source is a high quality Blu-ray outputting 1080p? The recommendation for calibrated viewing is normally "dot-by-dot" mode so wouldn't that be an apples-to-apples comparison even for the Runco?


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## rab-byte

Could you please report on video lag for us gamers. It really would be great.


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## Robert Zohn

rmongiovi said:


> Wouldn't that qualification be negligible if the source is a high quality Blu-ray outputting 1080p? The recommendation for calibrated viewing is normally "dot-by-dot" mode so wouldn't that be an apples-to-apples comparison even for the Runco?


No because Runco's outboard video processor is not just a scalar it has gray scale, gamma and other picture adjustments to enhance the image quality. 

We're carefully considering it and as I said we have a meeting with Runco this coming Tuesday. 

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

This year's event has developed a ton of interest among trade and consumer publications. We sent our press releases out this morning and Big Picture Big Sound is the first to break the story with feature article on their home page today.

The excitement is building very quickly!

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

Twice Magazine is covering our Flat Panel HDTV Shootout event and wrote a nice story in today's edition. Take a look and tweet and like it so we get the most exposure possible.

The press is heating up and now *CE*PRO released their Latest News on the home page featuring our Shootout event. 

Don't miss these very excellent articles!

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## ImRizzo

Excitement is building, a lot of interest has been garnered by industry and consumers to see and learn of the various new panels and any advancements, image-wise vs Apps. 
Thank You Robert, and your staff.


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## gimp

Thanks for doing this once again Robert, it is always very informative. Why no VX300?


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks Riz and Gimp. 

I'm considering Panasonic's VX300. It may be in the Flat Panel Shootout.

As you know I *LOVE* doing this every year and I become more excited with every Shootout. Best of all is enjoying the years of work we do and being an integral part of helping the manufacturers advance the picture quality that we all enjoy so very much.

This year's displays have all improved in the form/fit/design, all image quality attributes are greatly improved as is the Smart Internet application rich interactivity. 

Today's very modern displays deliver a stunning picture and is so much fun... it's the new center of very awesome entertainment.

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

My first allocation of VT50s are in-route to us! 

Just in time to do a proper break-in and pre-Shootout evaluation. :yay2:

-Robert


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## Gregr

Robert,
Ya know my 10yr+ 32" Vizio displays 1080p all day long and except for times I have not used "Screen Saver" I have a great picture. My Dad had a Sales and Service for almost 30yrs he sold and serviced a lot of RCA TV's. I remember the Tv's used to get the degousing hoop to help break in the screen and bring out better color. No need today and especially when OLED finally hits the big screen (I don't know what the hold up is except money for old technology (they want 100 trillion in profit and have only made 10trillion), maybe you and I can talk about this sometime.). 

In any case I adjusted the color to my specific needs and the fact I am at the end of the DSL line and since I have not touched the: color, contrast, tint, sharpness. I have done nothing except when I improved the power cord to a Furutech I had to turn the Color down to three or four (don't remember)

If you know the answer already you can tell me the Vizio with 1080p capability is only a shadow of what is available from Samsung or Panasonic or Runco..., I can take it. But I'll tell you I've walked thru Sears and Wal-Mart and Sam's Club I don't see a better picture. I see where some programs help improve video playback but it still looks as good thru a Vizio. 

Will Vizio make it into the shoot out.......


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## Robert Zohn

Gregr, actually I believe Vizio makes a great TV and the value is excellent. But this Flat Panel HDTV Shootout is strictly limited to the very best flagship models from the premium manufacturers. At this moment I can't tell you the names of the premium TV manufacturers' who did not make the cut and will not even have their premium flagship display included in the Shootout.

At Sears, Walmart and Sam's Club you only see the low end entry level TVs, and some are exclusive to the retailer. Also the TVs in those stores are set to the store demo mode, which is the worst viewing mode. So I think that may be some of the reason you are not seeing as good a picture that you experience in your home with subdued ambient light and a TV that has been properly set-up. 

If you put any of these panels on our Shootout wall and it would be embarrassing for the manufacturer. 

Sorry no Vizio in this event. But it would be nice to see Vizio beat the pants off of many of the big boys entry to mid level displays.

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

Residential Systems just published an article about our May 19th - 20th 2012 Flat Panel Shootout Event.

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## rab-byte

Robert Zohn said:


> Gregr, actually I believe Vizio makes a great TV and the value is excellent. But this Flat Panel HDTV Shootout is strictly limited to the very best flagship models from the premium manufacturers. At this moment I can't tell you the names of the premium TV manufacturers' who did not make the cut and will not even have their premium flagship display included in the Shootout.
> 
> At Sears, Walmart and Sam's Club you only see the low end entry level TVs, and some are exclusive to the retailer. Also the TVs in those stores are set to the store demo mode, which is the worst viewing mode. So I think that may be some of the reason you are not seeing as good a picture that you experience in your home with subdued ambient light and a TV that has been properly set-up.
> 
> If you put any of these panels on our Shootout wall and it would be embarrassing for the manufacturer.
> 
> Sorry no Vizio in this event. But it would be nice to see Vizio beat the pants off of many of the big boys entry to mid level displays.
> 
> -Robert


That's the nicest I've ever seen that put. Cudos to you sir.


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## DJG

How about an entry-level shoot out? Just kidding!


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## mechman

Nice video Robert! :T I love it!

For those of you who haven't seen it:


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## Robert Zohn

mech, thanks for posting this. This great promotion video for our 8th Annual Flat Panel Shootout was created by our Cinematographer, Mr. Joe Soso. Joe has been our Shootout Cinematographer for the past 4 years and much of his fine work with us can be seen on our Youtube HDTV Shootout page.

Hope to meet many HTS colleagues at the Shootout event!

-Robert


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## Gregr

WOW..., I didn't know my little Vizio had so many jagged lines and problems with reflections. I guess I have overlooked many picture anomalies for the sake of story line or whatever. That was a beautiful video and I'll bet it was not meant to be seen like I just saw it. 

I have to go to YouTube to watch this, I cannot have as many problems as I just saw........


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## Robert Zohn

Today we received Panasonic's WT50 series LCD/LED TV and all I can say is this display is simply stunning. My techs wall mounted the WT50 on the Shoot-out wall. This contestant will do well in the Shootout evaluation.

From the gorgeous industrial design and world class fit, finish, and overall build quality to the incredible image quality this new 2012 TV delivers an excellent investment to ensure many years of great visual entertainment.

We just posted a nice photo album on our Facebook page.

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## Kalik

sorry if this has been covered already but is there any chance of seeing the new LG 55" OLED at the Shootout?


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## mechman

I'm pretty certain that it won't be available in time.


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## tele1962

Robert can you provide the link to the Live Shootout & will you be taking questions again?


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## Kalik

mechman said:


> I'm pretty certain that it won't be available in time.


the LG OLED will be making it's official unveiling at the Cannes Film Festival that runs from May 16 to 27 so I was hoping it might sneak into the Shootout as a 'surprise' entrant


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## DJG

I think Robert would've mentioned it.


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## Robert Zohn

Samsung is also showing its OLED in Korea a week earlier, but although I'm still working on an OLED, sadly, I must confess it's unlikely. But, don't fret, cause we'll be hosting our semi-annual Shootout with both OLED's when they launch late summer to very early fall 2012 against the three top rated displays at our May 2012's Flat Panel Shootout.

Barry, tele1962, I'll have the exact direct link next week so stand by for the url. And yes the live HD channel will be moderated by our staff.

-Robert


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## Gregr

FYI,

I hate to burst anybodies bubble, but I'll bet it has happened before in America.

I listened to an MPBN broadcast (Maine Public Broadcasting Network) of a meeting @ the "Press Club"
with the "Press Club" and various notable dignitaries from Dept of Commerce, various manufacturers of electronic equipment e.g. Tele's, Rep's from Univ Think Tanks I do not remember from where. If I could remember who all was there it would not make a difference this was 8yrs ago (approx).

During the Q/A period a Scientist, Physicist, Chemist..., Inventor of OLED, a Woman had much to say:
She stated she has been trying to get her product into the market but she cannot even enter contests because as claimed "There is no Catagory for her product" Do not ever believe business is fair (I said that). She has been stone walled for years. 

At this press club meet she made several claims about OLED Television: Extremely easy, inexpensive to produce. All of the equipment necessary is readily available no extraordinary equipment is necessary to produce OLED TV. OLED Tv is much less expensive than LCD Tv to manufacture. It uses much less electricity, produces very, very little heat can be very thin. The technology is stable and consistent reproduction is not difficult. Color reproduction is infinitely variable and extremely accurate and controllable when compared to conventional tech. There were no poisonous substances required to manufacture the size of the OLED element is small compared to conventional LCD. I forget everything she claimed for the OLED technology but I am amazed I still see no mention of this woman anywhere and in fact only now years later are we seeing large OLED Tv for $8K to $10K??? Gee, what do think might have happened. No..., it couldn't happen in America??? I suggested all of my friends wait for OLED. Man was I the fool.

I'll admit it has been a few years since her "Press Club meeting (6-8yrs) but what happened?


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## Robert Zohn

Gregr, From what I know OLED was invented in 1982 by Eastman Kodak; at this moment I can't remember the name of the researcher. In 2003 Kodak was also the first to commercially use OLED in a small camera display. Some years later Kodak sold most of the OLED intellectual properties to LG.

I worked in the photographic industry before becoming a TV Broadcast systems engineer, which of course, was before starting ValueElectronics.com some 16 + years ago. 

Anyway fast forward a few decades and we have the first CES showing of OLED from LG and Samsung. Both 55" ultra thin models and they do look great. But these were just engineering prototypes. And I'm concerned about the longevity of the Blue OLED and from what I am told OLED panel yields that pass q/c are very low.

We suggest a cautious wait and see approach to all early adapters. BTW, the final list prices will be $6k to $8k and the very first production is expected in September 2012. When the launch we're planning a mid-year Shootout with the top three panels from next weeks 8th annual Flat Panel Shootout Evaluation event.

So stand by for more information on this fast moving target of who makes the "World's Best Display"

-Robert


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## Kalik

Robert Zohn said:


> We suggest a cautious wait and see approach to all early adapters. BTW, the final list prices will be $6k to $8k and the very first production is expected in September 2012. When the launch we're planning a mid-year Shootout with the top three panels from next weeks 8th annual Flat Panel Shootout Evaluation event.
> 
> So stand by for more information on this fast moving target of who makes the "World's Best Display"


I'm hearing LG will be launching their's earlier then September with the intention of having them available for the start of the Summer Olympics in London...but as you say we have to wait and see


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## Robert Zohn

I think August will be the earliest we'll see any OLED in the USA. Hope I'm wrong.

Just noticed you are in NYC, do you plan on attending our Flat Panel HDTV Shootout Evaluation event?

-Robert


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## Kalik

Robert Zohn said:


> I think August will be the earliest we'll see any OLED in the USA. Hope I'm wrong.
> 
> Just noticed you are in NYC, do you plan on attending our Flat Panel HDTV Shootout Evaluation event?
> 
> -Robert


can't attend this year but I'll be watching the HD simulcast online...great to see it happening so early in the year...my humble early prediction: VT50 takes the crown from the Elite


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## Gregr

I don't know all of the details, but OLED was first discovered in the 50"s but its use was not developed until much later. Like any technology its use develops in time as well new tech is introduced. Toshiba has developed a wallpaper using OLED, knowing Toshiba there is a Tele in there somewhere. 

The inventor I listened to spoke about a television and I suppose it was a first use in television of OLED. I was on heavy doses of Chemo at the time but I was not hallucinating, it may have been prior to 2003 I remember sitting in the VA parking lot waiting to see the Dr., it could have been 2001-02 I did not think it was that long ago. 

Thank you Robert for your Hx, adding to my limited knowledge of OLED. I think I am going to look further into this. It all sounded like bad business and I thought others would know more of this especially since all this time has passed.


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## tele1962

Robert Zohn said:


> Samsung is also showing its OLED in Korea a week earlier, but although I'm still working on an OLED, sadly, I must confess it's unlikely. But, don't fret, cause we'll be hosting our semi-annual Shootout with both OLED's when they launch late summer to very early fall 2012 against the three top rated displays at our May 2012's Flat Panel Shootout.
> 
> Barry, tele1962, I'll have the exact direct link next week so stand by for the url. And yes the live HD channel will be moderated by our staff.
> 
> -Robert


Thanks Robert and hope you guys have a great time.:T


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## davidjschenk

Robert Zohn said:


> mech, thanks for posting this. *This great promotion video for our 8th Annual Flat Panel Shootout was created by our Cinematographer, Mr. Joe Soso.* Joe has been our Shootout Cinematographer for the past 4 years and much of his fine work with us can be seen on our Youtube HDTV Shootout page.
> 
> Hope to meet many HTS colleagues at the Shootout event!
> 
> -Robert


Well, Joe did a great job. I'm very much looking forward to next weekend, Robert.

I was surprised to see that it's so soon, as usually you have it around the end of summer or sometime in the fall. Did all the manufacturers get their products to market early this year?

Yours,

David


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## Robert Zohn

Hi David :wave:

Yes, all of the 2012 LCD/LED and PDPs are out this week so it's time to see what's different between them and which one delivers the very best picture quality.

We're all looking forward to seeing you next week!

-Robert


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## Kalik

so it's confirmed that there will be 2 Shootouts this year?...one in May and the 2nd possibly in September/October?


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## Robert Zohn

Yes, the top three displays from our May 19 - 20 2012 Flat Panel Shootout will face-off against LG's and Samsung's OLEDs and yes likely Elite's new mid-year entry. I suspect it will be September before both models are available. So yes we'll have a second-half 2012 Flat Panel Smack-down final Shootout. 

I'll assemble our panel of experts to present the 2012 final comparison evaluation of the year to demonstrate and teach all of the variances between the best 2012 LCD/LEDs and PDPs against the break-through OLED technology. 

So stay tuned for our projected September 2012 mother of all Shootouts when we fire up our 20 amp dedicated/power conditioned circuit which will power six of the world's best displays all but-to-butt on our Shootout wall. 

Who will take the second-half 2012 VE crown as the "King of HDTV?" .....

In short time we'll know the definitive answer.

-Robert


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## tele1962

Again good luck lads.:wave:


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## DJG

tele1962 said:


> Again good luck lads.:wave:


Hmm ... are you named after a guitar?


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## tele1962

DJG said:


> Hmm ... are you named after a guitar?


LOL, it's been asked before..........sorry mate nothing exciting like that.:sad:


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## Kalik

anyone know the URL link to the HD feed?


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## Robert Zohn

We purchased a full HD bandwidth premium channel from Livestream.com. It's billed by the amount of use so we'll announce the exact url to our premium channel Saturday around 4 PM.

I was just told that one of the true gods of flat panel display will attend on Sunday and make a very special presentation and be available for q/a. Sorry I can't disclose this persons identity until Sunday.

-Robert


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## DJG

Ooooh! I'm glad I'm going Sunday!


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## Robert Zohn

DJG, you are lucky indeed. And we're looking forward to meeting you!










I just uploaded a few photos of our pre-Shootout prep and mass calibration and our continuous group evaluation.

Enjoy!

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

Just one more photo from the new album I posted today.










-Robert


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## tele1962

Looks like you guys are having a great time. Loving the pics Robert, and can i say what a fantastic store you have. I hope now more than ever i can visit some time in the future.


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks ^^ mate! This is all due to your great intervention sending the great David Mackenzie to us.

Much thanks!

-Robert


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## rab-byte

I'd love to view your live feed but I may be working at the time. If not I plan to watch the video once posted. 

But please please can you make sure that you get the reps to explain their "unique features" and take us through what they do. Not so much with live color and such that only effect WB (negatively) but more their film modes, and tweaks to frame rates, ie judder reduction and the like. 

Thanks I know this like previous shoot outs will be referenced often in the year to come.


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## dsskid

Robert, do you have a feed address link that I can post on the other site?
John


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks John, that would be great! We purchased a premium HD channel, no commercials and full HD bandwidth with moderation. We also had a direct up/down super high-speed pipeline to the Internet.

The private premium channel is metered and billed by the amount of users online and the time they stay on line so I was holding off o publishing the url, but I guess it's time to let it rip, so here goes....

Our 8th annual 2012 Flat Panel HDTV Evaluation event will be webcast live in HD on our premium Livestream channel, www.livestream.com/hdtvshootout

All interested parties must view tomorrow's 5 PM EST and the Sunday, 1 PM event. I have several very big surprises each day so don't miss any of the action.

-Robert


----------



## dsskid

Robert Zohn said:


> Thanks John, that would be great! We purchased a premium HD channel, no commercials and full HD bandwidth with moderation. We also had a direct up/down super high-speed pipeline to the Internet.
> 
> The private premium channel is metered and billed by the amount of users online and the time they stay on line so I was holding off o publishing the url, but I guess it's time to let it rip, so here goes....
> 
> Our 8th annual 2012 Flat Panel HDTV Evaluation event will be webcast live in HD on our premium Livestream channel, www.livestream.com/hdtvshootout
> 
> All interested parties must view tomorrow's 5 PM EST and the Sunday, 1 PM event. I have several very big surprises each day so don't miss any of the action.
> 
> -Robert


Done.


----------



## Kalik

will the discussions/information be different on both days (Saturday and Sunday) or will they basically be the same thing?


----------



## Robert Zohn

The second day is a repeat of day one with a few exceptions. First, since the attendees and and on-line audence is differrnt so new questions, answers and discussion varies quite a bit.

Second, is that we're more practiced so in past years the second days' presentations seemed better. 

Third, is that I have a very very special VIP guest on Sunday and this top industry leader can only attend and present on day two.

Don't miss either day.

-Robert


----------



## Robert Zohn

We're ready to rock and roll. This year we went all out to make this the best Flat Panel HDTV Shootout of all time.

Here's the link to our dedicated premium HD webcast. Please don't log into the site until 5 PM EST as we are charged for the amount of usage and this premium channel is expensive.

The webcast will be moderated by our staff of a/v experts so feel free to participate in the event.

For those who are not attending in person, we'll see you all soon in cyberspace.

Enjoy!

-Robert


----------



## DJG

Robert, so which are the panels in the shootout? Or is it a secret ?


----------



## Robert Zohn

DJG, Here's the list of panels that made it into the final selection for today's Shootout evaluation event:


Panasonic TC-P65VT50
Samsung PN64E8000
LG 60PM9700
Panasonic TC-L47WT50
Samsung UN60ES8000
Elite PRO-60X5FD

See you soon!

-Robert


----------



## Kalik

Robert Zohn said:


> DJG, Here's the list of panels that made it into the final selection for today's Shootout evaluation event:
> 
> 
> Panasonic TC-P65VT50
> Samsung PN64E8000
> LG 60PM9700
> Panasonic TC-L47WT50
> Samsung UN60ES8000
> Elite PRO-60X5FD
> 
> See you soon!
> 
> -Robert


I'm disappointed the Sony HX929 did not make it this year...I remember last year there was some sort of issue with the set used at the Shootout...I was hoping to see a real test of the Sony this year


----------



## realzven

thanks robert for the link


----------



## DJG

Robert Zohn said:


> DJG, Here's the list of panels that made it into the final selection for today's Shootout evaluation event:
> 
> 
> Panasonic TC-P65VT50
> Samsung PN64E8000
> LG 60PM9700
> Panasonic TC-L47WT50
> Samsung UN60ES8000
> Elite PRO-60X5FD
> 
> See you soon!
> 
> -Robert


Thanks Robert. So the Panasonic LCD/LED is only 47"? Not even a 55"?


----------



## Robert Zohn

Correct, at this time Panasonic's flagship LCD/LED IPS display was only available in the 47" size. We could have had one flown in from the factory in Mexico, but we insist on selecting a random unit from our inventory. 

I agree that the size is small compared to the rest of the Shootout displays, but we decided to enter it into the competition as Panasonic's WT50 series is an excellent panel and well deserves to be included in the event.

-Robert


----------



## Robert Zohn

Kalik said:


> I'm disappointed the Sony HX929 did not make it this year...I remember last year there was some sort of issue with the set used at the Shootout...I was hoping to see a real test of the Sony this year


We debated with this for months and finally decided not to include Sony's HX929. Several reasons played into our final decision, mostly it is because it's a hold over from last year and this is the 2012 model year Shootout evaluation. 

Other factors that helped us make this decision is that it was a very good performer, but not an outstanding display and when you consider the very big advancements this year in plasma and LCD/LED technologies the HX929 would not fair well in this very high-end bleeding edge display shootout.

We're planning a September 2012 face off with the top three place winners of this weekend's Shootout with LG's and Samsung's OLEDs along with whatever else may come to market at that time.

-Robert


----------



## Bama29

Kalik said:


> I'm disappointed the Sony HX929 did not make it this year...I remember last year there was some sort of issue with the set used at the Shootout...I was hoping to see a real test of the Sony this year



I also am disappointed that the 65" Sony HX929 did not get a chance this year. Yes it is a 2011 model just like the Sharp Elite that will continue to be produced this year. David Katzmaier at CNET sure seems to think the HX929 is still a top pick...


----------



## Robert Zohn

Bama29 I understand your feelings on Sony's HX929, but I can tell you we tested it along with a few other high-end panels that just did not make the cut. This year's high-end flagship displays have advanced the image quality significantly and I'm sad to say the HX929 did not compare well to the newer panels. 

I would love a big name like Sony top be included in the event and I am sure once they advance the display technology to a newer generation we'll see them back in the Shootout.

The Elite is included simply because it's the reigning champ and definitely performed far better than the HX929.

-Robert


----------



## jmschnur

Robert Zohn said:


> Bama29 I understand your feelings on Sony's HX929, but I can tell you we tested it along with a few other high-end panels that just did not make the cut. This year's high-end flagship displays have advanced the image quality significantly and I'm sad to say the HX929 did not compare well to the newer panels.
> 
> I would love a big name like Sony top be included in the event and I am sure once they advance the display technology to a newer generation we'll see them back in the Shootout.
> 
> The Elite is included simply because it's the raining champ and definitely performed far better than the HX929.
> 
> -Robert


Sure hope the reign does not hurt your shoot out.

Will you list the ratings?


----------



## Robert Zohn

Sorry for the typo. I'm typing in total darkness during the Shootout event. 

Yes at the end of day two we'll put up all of the results, including the voting.

-Robert


----------



## mechman

From what I've seen, the Elite still looked the best. The VT50 does look good though.


----------



## mz_milan

After Day1 from what i seen from live streaming .. this is my opinion :

*Panasonic VT50 PDP :*
Black level is excellent
Color is very good
PQ is very good and details very high
Brightness not bad 
Black level with ambient light not deep like Elite

*Sharp Elite LED :*
Perfect black level but unfortunately with blooming around the white content (but not too much like other LED with dimming system)
Great PQ and black level with ambient light
Colors not very good
View angle not good
Very glossy

*Samsung E8000 PDP :*
Very good black level
Great Colors accuracy
Very good PQ with high details

The winner is Panasonic VT50 PDP specially with light controlled

Second is Sharp Elite LED and probably be the winner if your room have too much light

Third is Samsung E8000 PDP .. this TV surprised me this year 

I hope oneday i can attend this FLAT PANEL SHOOT-OUT  i am from Middle East  far from US 

Sorry for my bad English 

Regards


----------



## Robert Zohn

Just put up a few photos of VE Shootout evaluation event Day 1 photo album on our facebook page. Take a look.

-Robert


----------



## Kalik

great job by everyone at the Shootout on Day 1....but a special mention to David Mackenzie who really nailed it with his presentation...he brought up some really interesting topics that were not easily noticable...kudos to him and hope to hear more from him on Day 2 as he seemed to be drowned out in the early goings by the other calibrators/presenters

another thing which shocked me was the fact that not 1 person in the audience asked about the cyan issue during the Sharp rep's Q&A...wow, are you serious??...I know it was briefly mentioned during Kevin's presentation but did not 1 single person think about bringing up what was surely the biggest hot button topic on the Elite's...were they told not to bring it up?...I hope that somebody asks about this on Day 2 and whether or not a fix is coming for Generation 1 Elite's and the status of Generation 2 Elite's


----------



## Robert Zohn

At the end of today's Shootout event we'll put up the results of the voting and announce the new "King of HDTV"

Even more importantly and this goes for everyone reading this and fell free to post this on other forums:

*DON'T MISS TODAY'S 1:00 PM EST SHOOTOUT EVENT!* 

I've got a very big surprise.

-Robert


----------



## DJG

All I have to say is there better be some parking nearby!


----------



## Ken Ross

mz_milan said:


> After Day1 from what i seen from live streaming .. this is my opinion :
> 
> *Panasonic VT50 PDP :*
> Black level is excellent
> Color is very good
> PQ is very good and details very high
> Brightness not bad
> Black level with ambient light not deep like Elite
> 
> *Sharp Elite LED :*
> Perfect black level but unfortunately with blooming around the white content (but not too much like other LED with dimming system)
> Great PQ and black level with ambient light
> Colors not very good
> View angle not good
> Very glossy
> 
> *Samsung E8000 PDP :*
> Very good black level
> Great Colors accuracy
> Very good PQ with high details
> 
> The winner is Panasonic VT50 PDP specially with light controlled
> 
> Second is Sharp Elite LED and probably be the winner if your room have too much light
> 
> Third is Samsung E8000 PDP .. this TV surprised me this year
> 
> I hope oneday i can attend this FLAT PANEL SHOOT-OUT  i am from Middle East  far from US
> 
> Sorry for my bad English
> 
> Regards


Where we seriously part company, is your statement that the Elite color is "not very good". Could not disagree more. Because cyan is off at lower luminance levels doesn't mean that every color under the sun is too. I've never seen anyone that saw the Elite say "wow, the color is not very good". But this is what the bad press of the cyan issue does to people not familiar with the display.

Putting the Elite off to the side during the shootout (I think one poster said that) seriously degrades the image relative to the plasmas. So unless you watch from significant angles, the PQ was not indicative of what it is when sitting at or near the sweet spot. I certainly don't dismiss poor viewing angles, but I do say PQ is not indicative of potential when viewing with significant viewing angles.


----------



## Ken Ross

Kalik said:


> another thing which shocked me was the fact that not 1 person in the audience asked about the cyan issue during the Sharp rep's Q&A...wow, are you serious??...I know it was briefly mentioned during Kevin's presentation but did not 1 single person think about bringing up what was surely the biggest hot button topic on the Elite's...were they told not to bring it up?...I hope that somebody asks about this on Day 2 and whether or not a fix is coming for Generation 1 Elite's and the status of Generation 2 Elite's


Just a thought, perhaps the attendees were a mix of owners and folks who had seen the Elite and knew that the issue was both overblown and not easily seen. This could have been a crowd that understood the concept of 'keeping things in perspective'.

The difference between a 'hot button topic' and one that significantly degrades the picture, can be two different things. But to imply that people may have been told not to bring it up, sounds pretty absurd to me.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Kalik said:


> great job by everyone at the Shootout on Day 1....but a special mention to David Mackenzie who really nailed it with his presentation...he brought up some really interesting topics that were not easily noticable...kudos to him and hope to hear more from him on Day 2 as he seemed to be drowned out in the early goings by the other calibrators/presenters
> 
> another thing which shocked me was the fact that not 1 person in the audience asked about the cyan issue during the Sharp rep's Q&A...wow, are you serious??...I know it was briefly mentioned during Kevin's presentation but did not 1 single person think about bringing up what was surely the biggest hot button topic on the Elite's...were they told not to bring it up?...I hope that somebody asks about this on Day 2 and whether or not a fix is coming for Generation 1 Elite's and the status of Generation 2 Elite's


Kalik, please take the 30 minuet Metro North train form Grand Central Terminal in NYC directly to Scarsdale so you can attend in person and ask whatever questions you like. We'd love to have you here today!

-Robert



DJG said:


> All I have to say is there better be some parking nearby!


Sorry to say parking is limited. Other than meter parking directly in front of our store (the meters are not not in force on Sundays) you can legally park on anywhere you find a spot of the streets nearby. No parking enforcement is in effect on Sundays other than crosswalks and fire hydrants. 

-Robert


----------



## mechman

Need better moderation in the chat room Robert. Something to consider for the next one.


----------



## Robert Zohn

mech, I agree, today we're limited to one mod as we needed the other a/v experts who were mods yesterday in the Shootout room. 

Next time I'm recruiting professional moderators. Any chance you want the job?

-Robert


----------



## RandyWalters

mechman said:


> Need better moderation in the chat room Robert. Something to consider for the next one.


I agree, there are some serious Jerks there, especially one guy who is continually bashing Panasonic and D-Nice both days and generally causing trouble, just like he does on the forums.

Otherwise i'm just focusing on the shoot-out itself and trying to not let the chat interfere with enjoying watching the event :T


----------



## Robert Zohn

Hi Randy, Thanks for joining HTS and for your wisdom of ignoring trouble makers! Glad you are enjoying the our Shootout evaluation event.

We'd love to see you here often.

-Robert


----------



## mechman

Robert Zohn said:


> mech, I agree, today we're limited to one mod as we needed the other a/v experts who were mods yesterday in the Shootout room.
> 
> Next time I'm recruiting professional moderators. Any chance you want the job?
> 
> -Robert


I'd do it for you in a heartbeat my friend! :T Unfortunately, I'm usually working during the events. Give me a good lead time next time and I may be able to work something out. :T


----------



## Robert Zohn

We're already planning our second 2012 Shootout event. The top three panels from this Shootout will face off against LG's and Samsung's OLED. No hard date at this moment, but it's likely too be the end of September 2012.

-Robert


----------



## JimP

Robert,

How are you typing these responses at the same time we see you on the podcast?

Just asking?


----------



## tele1962

Robert Zohn said:


> mech, I agree, today we're limited to one mod as we needed the other a/v experts who were mods yesterday in the Shootout room.
> 
> Next time I'm recruiting professional moderators. Any chance you want the job?
> 
> -Robert


I can help next time Robert.:wave:


----------



## buzzard767

RandyWalters said:


> I agree, there are some serious Jerks there, especially one guy who is continually bashing Panasonic and D-Nice both days and generally causing trouble, just like he does on the forums.
> 
> Otherwise i'm just focusing on the shoot-out itself and trying to not let the chat interfere with enjoying watching the event :T


Amen. It was very annoying, especially when some were asking legitimate questions. Also, it was a little difficult keeping up with so much useless chatter.



tele1962 said:


> I can help next time Robert.:wave:


Good luck.  I'm a moderator on an Internet forum and sometimes you have to make tough choices....


----------



## tele1962

buzzard767 said:


> Amen. It was very annoying, especially when some were asking legitimate questions. Also, it was a little difficult keeping up with so much useless chatter.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck.  I'm a moderator on an Internet forum and sometimes you have to make tough choices....


Me to.:nerd:


----------



## Ken Ross

mechman said:


> Need better moderation in the chat room Robert. Something to consider for the next one.


I took a quick look at that and I'd swear there was nobody over 14 there. It was so bad I just sat there and laughed. The usual suspects were there taking every potshot they could at the Elite. I would never even attempt to join a group like that.


----------



## Ken Ross

JimP said:


> Robert,
> 
> How are you typing these responses at the same time we see you on the podcast?
> 
> Just asking?


Robert actually exists in two dimensions. The only problem is that Wendy only exists in one. So I wonder what hanky panky Robert is up to in that other dimension!


----------



## bawheid

Robert 

Thanks for hosting an informative day. I missed day 1 - work.

Larry Weber was a superb guest and very funny too. Well done to David MacKenzie today I've also joined HDTV reviews forum recently. 

Some of the chatroom banter was fun (can get a bit unruly in there so I steer clear).

First post from me just to say thanks again.


----------



## NYPete

Robert,

I was at the shoot-out Saturday night, and can't say enough thank-you's to you, your family, your staff, and all the calibrators, professionals who work so hard. It really is a true service to the video enthusiast hobby, and I can't believe all the work everyone does. 

As for the TVs, starting at last years shootout it really hit how close many of the TVs are, and how good they are. Of course, we like to take them apart bit by bit to try to figure which is best and we like to see improvement. But anyone at a shoot-out about 4 years ago, you saw massive differences, including differences in overall quality, between the TVs. The gap is closing, at least among the top 3 TVs at this years shootout. That is the biggest difference over the years and something we should all be happy about because more panels are being made that are excellent.

I agree with the plans to have a moderator on the chat room during the event - lots of useless clutter and silly accusations of bias, etc. that drowns out the legitimate discussion and questions.

Pete


----------



## Turbe

Robert, 

Any chance a Sharp 60/70LE847U can make it in the next shootout in a few months?

I personally think it should have been in and not the WT50 (less calibration controls vs Sharp).


----------



## Robert Zohn

JimP said:


> Robert,
> 
> How are you typing these responses at the same time we see you on the podcast?
> 
> Just asking?


In between my presentations I refresh this HTS thread.

-Robert



tele1962 said:


> I can help next time Robert.:wave:


Yes, yes, yes, please!

-Robert



Ken Ross said:


> Robert actually exists in two dimensions. The only problem is that Wendy only exists in one. So I wonder what hanky panky Robert is up to in that other dimension!


Funny sounding, but I actually think you may have something here.

-Robert



bawheid said:


> Robert
> 
> Thanks for hosting an informative day. I missed day 1 - work.
> 
> Larry Weber was a superb guest and very funny too. Well done to David MacKenzie today I've also joined HDTV reviews forum recently.
> 
> Some of the chatroom banter was fun (can get a bit unruly in there so I steer clear).
> 
> First post from me just to say thanks again.


Thank you! Don't be a stranger here. 

-Robert



NYPete said:


> Robert,
> 
> I was at the shoot-out Saturday night, and can't say enough thank-you's to you, your family, your staff, and all the calibrators, professionals who work so hard. It really is a true service to the video enthusiast hobby, and I can't believe all the work everyone does.
> 
> As for the TVs, starting at last years shootout it really hit how close many of the TVs are, and how good they are. Of course, we like to take them apart bit by bit to try to figure which is best and we like to see improvement. But anyone at a shoot-out about 4 years ago, you saw massive differences, including differences in overall quality, between the TVs. The gap is closing, at least among the top 3 TVs at this years shootout. That is the biggest difference over the years and something we should all be happy about because more panels are being made that are excellent.
> 
> I agree with the plans to have a moderator on the chat room during the event - lots of useless clutter and silly accusations of bias, etc. that drowns out the legitimate discussion and questions.
> 
> Pete


Thank you Pete. I agree with everything you said.

-Robert



Turbe said:


> Robert,
> 
> Any chance a Sharp 60/70LE847U can make it in the next shootout in a few months?
> 
> I personally think it should have been in and not the WT50 (less calibration controls vs Sharp).


Hi Turbe, I don't think the LE847U can beat the PRO-60X5FD.

-Robert


----------



## Turbe

Robert Zohn said:


> Hi Turbe, I don't think the LE847U can beat the PRO-60X5FD.
> 
> -Robert


The are different price categories (Elite vs 847U).. the 60LE847U is priced approx.with the WT50.. I believe it may have been a better contender than the WT50 in the shootout.

The 847's also have the ISFccc Interface with more calibration controls... I believe Kevin may be checking one of these out in the near future.

Maybe next show


----------



## vjkaty

Who won ?


----------



## dsskid

IMO , the top three were the Samsung e8000 plasma, Panasonic VT50, and the Elite. Any of the three would be a welcome addition to most homes, but the shootout scrutinizes every aspect of the displays. As close as they were, I would put the VT50 as number 1 for 2012. For many, one of the other two could be first.


----------



## Robert Zohn

The panel of experts and audience agreed....... Panasonic's TC-P65VT50 won.

For those who can get Channel 12News you can see their coverage of the Shootout all week.

-Robert


----------



## DJG

Hey, Turbe, I won't be able to help you with the 847U .

Robert, thank you and your family so much for a great event. It was lively yet cordial. And it was great to meet Kevin, D-Nice, and all the other hard-working presenters and support people, and Dr. Plasma himself!

It was great to see the varous strengths and weaknesses of the TVs, and I do hope you add the shadow detail and viewing angle as categories next time. For me shadow detail is key, and one of the main reasons together with the blacks why the Elite is still my choice after weighing in its weaker color accuracy and even the occasional pulsing thing.

In the end we find each of us is a universe of its own with different preferences, so having different excellent choices is a great thing to have. For me the VT50 and the Eliite were a cut above the rest, with the nod to the VT50 for its excellent color fidelity and to the Elite for blacks, shadow detail and brightness.

Thanks again, Robert, no need to reply - you've done more than enough already, take the rest of the week off .


----------



## Turbe

DJG said:


> Dr. Plasma himself!


would like to meet him..


----------



## buzzard767

DJG said:


> Thanks again, Robert, no need to reply - you've done more than enough already, take the rest of the week off .


He can't because I'm calling in the morning to order a 65VT50. :neener:


----------



## sheshechic

Yay!!!

*jumping up and down... throwing confetti* 

:clap:


----------



## buzzard767

And then I'll be calling you, Shawn.


----------



## DJG

Turbe said:


> would like to meet him..


Well, not only does he obviously have a prime brain, he's also quite a humorous and pleasantly live character.

And let me add that even though I own an Elite (which I love) I'm delighted the VT50 won, fair and square. Maybe Sharp will stop dragging its feet now and get on with the color fix and reclaim the crown in the Fall .


----------



## mjw

Thanks Robert for another excellent shootout event. I definitely am looking forward to the next one in September.



DJG said:


> It was great to see the varous strengths and weaknesses of the TVs, and I do hope you add the shadow detail and viewing angle as categories next time.


Similar to DJG's suggestions above I also was wondering whether it might be worth considering some tweaks to the scoring categories for next time. Awarding points for both Black Level and Contrast Ratio tends to give double points to panels with a low black level since contrast ratio is White Level/Black Level. Since white level is between 20-35 ft lamberts for every panel, differences in contrast ratio between the panels is predominantly driven by the black level (black level varies by an order of magnitude between some panels). This perhaps unfairly penalizes panels with good color accuracy but average Black level.


----------



## buzzard767

Last year all displays were outputting 35FtL weren't they? I assumed it was the same this weekend. In that case, black level wins every time ON/OFF. The winner should be ANSI contrast and I guess that was what was happening, or at least that was where the emphasis was. 

Where are the results? Was off axis viewing one of the categories? I may have missed it but didn't see the calibrators explaining the large amount of saturation and contrast lost in as little as 30 degrees off with the LCD displays. Depending on the viewing room requirements that can be a huge deal.


----------



## HiFiListener

Congratulations to Robert, Wendy, the staff at Value Electronics, the calibrators/professionals, and the manufactureres who make the Shootout possible. I was able to watch a good bit of the livestream, and can say I was thoroughly impressed with the event.

Robert, you are a credit to the Video community!


----------



## Robert Zohn

DJG said:


> Well, not only does he obviously have a prime brain, he's also quite a humorous and pleasantly live character.
> 
> And let me add that even though I own an Elite (which I love) I'm delighted the VT50 won, fair and square. Maybe Sharp will stop dragging its feet now and get on with the color fix and reclaim the crown in the Fall .


Correct, Dr. Larry Weber is a true gem. Funny, interesting incredibility intelligent and very kind. He's like a force of nature.

-Robert



mjw said:


> Thanks Robert for another excellent shootout event. I definitely am looking forward to the next one in September.
> 
> 
> Similar to DJG's suggestions above I also was wondering whether it might be worth considering some tweaks to the scoring categories for next time. Awarding points for both Black Level and Contrast Ratio tends to give double points to panels with a low black level since contrast ratio is White Level/Black Level. Since white level is between 20-35 ft lamberts for every panel, differences in contrast ratio between the panels is predominantly driven by the black level (black level varies by an order of magnitude between some panels). This perhaps unfairly penalizes panels with good color accuracy but average Black level.


Very good points. I'll discuss this with our panel of experts.

Thanks for attending the Flat Panel Shootout! I enjoyed meeting you and our conversations.

-Robert



buzzard767 said:


> Last year all displays were outputting 35FtL weren't they? I assumed it was the same this weekend. In that case, black level wins every time ON/OFF. The winner should be ANSI contrast and I guess that was what was happening, or at least that was where the emphasis was.
> 
> Where are the results? Was off axis viewing one of the categories? I may have missed it but didn't see the calibrators explaining the large amount of saturation and contrast lost in as little as 30 degrees off with the LCD displays. Depending on the viewing room requirements that can be a huge deal.


Correct, we set the luminance level of 35fl. I like your and DJG's suggestions. 

-Robert



HiFiListener said:


> Congratulations to Robert, Wendy, the staff at Value Electronics, the calibrators/professionals, and the manufactureres who make the Shootout possible. I was able to watch a good bit of the livestream, and can say I was thoroughly impressed with the event.
> 
> Robert, you are a credit to the Video community!


Thank you so very much for your and the many more very kind remarks from so many fine folks who enjoyed the Shootout event. 

I love doing this and have a lifetime dedication to continue the evaluation Shootout and pushing the manufacturers to design and build better displays.

-Robert


----------



## mjw

buzzard767 said:


> Last year all displays were outputting 35FtL weren't they?


Perhaps one of the experts can clarify since I'm not totally clear on this point. I heard it mentioned that all the displays were calibrated to output 35FtL, but then a spreadsheet was handed out that showed the plasma displays having white levels around 20. I asked a question about this and it was explained by Dr Plasma that the plasmas have a power limiting circuit that prevents the white level on the checkerboard test pattern from reaching 35FtL.


buzzard767 said:


> Where are the results? Was off axis viewing one of the categories?


Robert usually posts the results to to value electronics website a while after the end of the shootout. Off axis viewing was not a category.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Sorry for the delay in getting all of the results posted. We are doing an audit of all of the ballots. I'm sure we'll have all of the final results on every panel tomorrow.

No question, Panasonic's VT50 is the clear winner.

-Robert


----------



## DJG

It's OK to get some sleep, Robert! The results can wait at least that much!


----------



## gorb

Can't wait to see full results. Thanks for all the hard work


----------



## tele1962

Robert Zohn said:


> The panel of experts and audience agreed....... Panasonic's TC-P65VT50 won.
> 
> For those who can get Channel 12News you can see their coverage of the Shootout all week.
> 
> -Robert


Robert is there any chance of Channel12 putting their report online, You Tube maybe. So as UK and Europe can see it?


----------



## mechman

Big Picture Big sound article.


----------



## ImRizzo

Pictures from Saturday's event










Robert and Kevin Miller










David Mackenzie (UK's HDTVtest) / D-Nice / Kevin Miller


----------



## ImRizzo

More Pictures




















Thanks Robert for a very informative event once again Kudos

da Rizz, once again always a pleasure to be there.

ps for some reason additional photo will not show ? sorry


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## ImRizzo

More photo's





































Thanks Robert for a very informative event once again Kudos


----------



## mechman

Some of the shots aren't showing up Rizz. :huh: And I seen a few with you in them on VE's Facebook page. :T


----------



## ImRizzo

mechman said:


> Some of the shots aren't showing up Rizz. :huh: And I seen a few with you in them on VE's Facebook page. :T


I don't know why they aren't showing ?


----------



## mechman

ImRizzo said:


> I don't know why they aren't showing ?


Looks like a bad link:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...3qI/AAAAAAAAD6k/6-X2HS80y54/s720/IMG_2463.JPG

That's the same photo link for all of the broken images it appears.


----------



## Ken Ross

I got back from BB earlier to have my first look-see of the VT50. I have very mixed feelings, but part of that may be due to the relatively poor placement of the display at the Magnolia section.

First off I noticed a flicker that I can't recall seeing on my Kuro and certainly not on the Elite. It was enough to be a bit distracting and obviously not at all related to placement.

Although the peak whites have been improved, I don't think they're even close to the Elite. They were using Avatar as their demo and the display was initially in THX night mode and I had them change it to THX day mode.

There it had more pop, but I just didn't get the same sense of depth I get with my Elite. Here it could have been a placement issue, but I'll look elsewhere for another Magnolia in my area with better placement. When I came home I popped my Avatar disc in and the difference in depth was far from from subtle. On the other side of the VT50 was the Elite showing some nature disc. There were full-screen scenes of snow and expanses of bright clouds that were brilliant and believable. Very impressive. It's this dynamic range I don't see the VT 50 matching.

I saw a bit of motion judder on the Panny, but I saw the same thing on the Elite, so I'd say it's inherent in the disc and certainly not uncommon in movies. I just wanted to be sure there wasn't some additional motion anomaly on the VT50. Comparing the scenes I saw, I saw little difference in overall color quality, but this was far from a true A/B. Likewise it was difficult for me to assess detail relative to the Elite, both were excellent.

The styling was hit & miss for me. I like the full glass application but I thought it was really brought down by the bright silver surround. I don't know why they did that, but whatever.

As I said, first impression was nice, but not a replacement for me if I were looking for that screen size. I'll try to see it at another location.


----------



## dsskid

Ken Ross said:


> I got back from BB earlier to have my first look-see of the VT50. I have very mixed feelings, but part of that may be due to the relatively poor placement of the display at the Magnolia section.
> 
> First off I noticed a flicker that I can't recall seeing on my Kuro and certainly not on the Elite. It was enough to be a bit distracting and obviously not at all related to placement.
> 
> Although the peak whites have been improved, I don't think they're even close to the Elite. They were using Avatar as their demo and the display was initially in THX night mode and I had them change it to THX day mode.
> 
> There it had more pop, but I just didn't get the same sense of depth I get with my Elite. Here it could have been a placement issue, but I'll look elsewhere for another Magnolia in my area with better placement. When I came home I popped my Avatar disc in and the difference in depth was far from from subtle. On the other side of the VT50 was the Elite showing some nature disc. There were full-screen scenes of snow and expanses of bright clouds that were brilliant and believable. Very impressive. It's this dynamic range I don't see the VT 50 matching.
> 
> I saw a bit of motion judder on the Panny, but I saw the same thing on the Elite, so I'd say it's inherent in the disc and certainly not uncommon in movies. I just wanted to be sure there wasn't some additional motion anomaly on the VT50. Comparing the scenes I saw, I saw little difference in overall color quality, but this was far from a true A/B. Likewise it was difficult for me to assess detail relative to the Elite, both were excellent.
> 
> The styling was hit & miss for me. I like the full glass application but I thought it was really brought down by the bright silver surround. I don't know why they did that, but whatever.
> 
> As I said, first impression was nice, but not a replacement for me if I were looking for that screen size. I'll try to see it at another location.


Ken, as you already know, it's extremely difficult to achieve an apples to apples flat screen comparison at most B&M stores, since there is rarely any calibration involved other than taking the display out of the box, and setting it to the recommended(?) mode. 

This is one of the biggest benefits of Robert's annual shootout (besides Robert and his family always making you feel welcome), where each display is maximized, and true comparisons can me made, and I thank Robert immensely for going through the time and expense to do this every year (this year twice!). 

It's too bad you couldn't attend this year Ken, but maybe you can make to the second one. I'm in Wantagh, and usually drive up with Rizz, but maybe you'd like to come for the ride in the fall.


----------



## tele1962

Just been told by David that he took ill with a fever and collapsed at the airport, and was taken to hospital put on a drip but he is OK now and resuming his travels. He had been feeling ill for a few day's because of a bad reaction to an insect bite but didn't want to miss the shootout.:gulp:

I blame to much beer LOL.:innocent:


----------



## rmongiovi

It's the "Curse of the Elite". Anyone who disses the Elite will suffer....


----------



## Ken Ross

dsskid said:


> Ken, as you already know, it's extremely difficult to achieve an apples to apples flat screen comparison at most B&M stores, since there is rarely any calibration involved other than taking the display out of the box, and setting it to the recommended(?) mode.
> 
> This is one of the biggest benefits of Robert's annual shootout (besides Robert and his family always making you feel welcome), where each display is maximized, and true comparisons can me made, and I thank Robert immensely for going through the time and expense to do this every year (this year twice!).
> 
> It's too bad you couldn't attend this year Ken, but maybe you can make to the second one. I'm in Wantagh, and usually drive up with Rizz, but maybe you'd like to come for the ride in the fall.


Yes, as we all know Robert and his clan always puts on a first-class show. However what I like to do at a Magnolia is bring demo material and play with the display to my heart's content. Things like dynamic range are pretty easy to spot even with the difficulty in achieving a true A/B.

What was interesting were several posters on AVS talking about how the Elite still looked like the best display at the shootout with the best black levels, contrast ratios and dynamic range. One of the frequent posters there is an A/V manager (I believe) at a Magnolia store. He loves to play with all the new stuff. He did some pretty extensive A/ between the Elite and the VT50 and came to similar conclusions as a few other AVS posters that were at the shootout.

He said the black levels & dynamic range of the Elite was superior and it's ability to produce full-screen whites superior. That's what I observed today. The VT30 looked really dim by comparison with the VT50 and certainly the Elite. It wasn't pretty. He did say that in a fully darkened room (depending on how bright you have your display set), the differences are somewhat less. Overall he still felt the Elite was the class act.

It's great to have choices and these are two very fine displays.


----------



## DrRx

Robert Zohn said:


> Sorry for the delay in getting all of the results posted. We are doing an audit of all of the ballots. I'm sure we'll have all of the final results on every panel tomorrow.
> 
> No question, Panasonic's VT50 is the clear winner.
> 
> -Robert


Hi Robert;

Many many thanks again to you Robert, as well as to Kevin, D-Nice and David (get well!!) for all your hard work and dedication to bring such a valuable opportunity to the A/V community. I found it very informative and interesting - and glad to see that it reaffirmed my VT50 choice. Too bad you can't serve us Canadian customers as well as I believe it would be a pleasure to do business with you!

A quick question - Where and when could we get access to the detailed final results on all the panels, not just the winner? Will you be posting the final calibration results as well?? I've been searching the forums and web sites all day but I guess I've been looking in the wrong spots. Thanks!


----------



## markrogo

Ken Ross said:


> What was interesting were several posters on AVS talking about how the Elite still looked like the best display at the shootout with the best black levels, contrast ratios and dynamic range.


I should hope some people still feel that way. The 60" Elite is about $1000 more than the 65" Panasonic and the 70" is $2500 more.

If no one preferred the Elites for any reason, that would be bad.


----------



## David Mackenzie

markrogo said:


> I should hope some people still feel that way. The 60" Elite is about $1000 more than the 65" Panasonic and the 70" is $2500 more.
> 
> If no one preferred the Elites for any reason, that would be bad.


As we know though, price and performance do not completely correlate. Just look at some high end audio products - diminishing returns.

I'm not bashing the Elite, BTW - it's spectacular for an LED LCD (colour issues aside). For me, the viewing angle (as is the case with any LCD display) is an issue. But it might not be for everyone.


----------



## vic_0002

Ken Ross said:


> What was interesting were several posters on AVS talking about how the Elite still looked like the best display at the shootout with the best black levels, contrast ratios and dynamic range.


I figured the Elite's strength would continue to be black level regardless of what Panasonic did, because the individual LEDs can shut off completely, so it's pretty much impossible to beat that. Of course, this will also lead to better contrast ratio and dynamic range.

But sometimes measurements and stats don't account for viewing experiences and preferences. I've watched the Elite several times and even though it's image is bold, sharp and very impressive (it should be impressive for what it costs!), my eyes still prefer the image a plasma puts out... even if that plasma has an inferior black level and brightness. It's just a tad easier on the eyes and more enjoyable to watch on a daily basis.


----------



## Ken Ross

David Mackenzie said:


> I'm not bashing the Elite, BTW - it's spectacular for an LED LCD (colour issues aside).


Where you and I disagree David, is your qualifier. IMO the Elite is simply 'spectacular' for any display tech, not just LED LCD. This is coming from someone that would only buy plasmas (Pioneer Kuros and Fujitsus in the earlier plasma years) and would never have considered LCD or LED/LCD. 

To my eyes (and many others) the Elite trumps anything on sale today. Yes, it has color issues, but I will tell you that virtually no owner sees the color errors where they exist. Cyan at the lower luminance levels is not typically seen and some stylized movies where the issue can be seen has debatable impact IMO. 

I've always wondered how critical it is if a movie that is already tinted with 'wrong' colors is tinted slightly differently than what the 'director intended'. So instead of an overall amber tint, we have a slightly different amber hue. Does that really have any significant impact on the 'mood' the color creates? IMO, no. Unless you have the actual shade of the 'wrong' color the director intended, nobody would ever be aware. 

I say this only because this is the response I get from critics when I mention how rare the color cyan in the lower luminance levels is in typical non-stylized movies and TV shows. They then go on to say 'yes, but you can see it in some stylized movies'. OK, I get that. So what they're telling me is that the Elite will get the Director's wrong color 'wronger'. 

Before you think I'm in denial, I'll mention that I was the first to recognize the cyan error on the Elite and mentioned this on the forums. This was months after its release and after several stellar reviews had been published. 

On a personal note I find these stylized movies so overdone, that to me they've become trite and boring. But that's a subject for a different day. 

As for more important color errors, if we demonstrated that an apple's color was wrong or something whose color was easily recognized was wrong, that's a totally different story in terms of the impact of color errors. For quite awhile I had both my Pioneer Pro 151 and my Elite. I did countless A/ on a huge range of materials and found very few instances where there was any detectable color differences of any significance. What was easily recognized in many instances, was the Elite's ability to trump the Kuro's dynamic range and create a more dynamic and engaging viewing experience. 

It's too easy for some people to say 'the Elite's color is wrong'. There are an infinite number of areas where a color/colors can be wrong on a display. Many displays have color errors in far more common and easily seen areas of the color spectrum.

All things considered, to my eyes the Elite has the ability to recreate 'reality' better than any display I've ever seen. I've had a number of guests come over, watch the Elite and say 'it almost looks 3D'. IMO that's the impact of a dynamic range that no plasma can match.


----------



## JimP

Ken Ross said:


> I got back from BB earlier to have my first look-see of the VT50. I have very mixed feelings, but part of that may be due to the relatively poor placement of the display at the Magnolia section.
> 
> First off I noticed a flicker that I can't recall seeing on my Kuro and certainly not on the Elite. It was enough to be a bit distracting and obviously not at all related to placement.
> 
> Although the peak whites have been improved, I don't think they're even close to the Elite. They were using Avatar as their demo and the display was initially in THX night mode and I had them change it to THX day mode.
> 
> There it had more pop, but I just didn't get the same sense of depth I get with my Elite. Here it could have been a placement issue, but I'll look elsewhere for another Magnolia in my area with better placement. When I came home I popped my Avatar disc in and the difference in depth was far from from subtle. On the other side of the VT50 was the Elite showing some nature disc. There were full-screen scenes of snow and expanses of bright clouds that were brilliant and believable. Very impressive. It's this dynamic range I don't see the VT 50 matching.
> 
> I saw a bit of motion judder on the Panny, but I saw the same thing on the Elite, so I'd say it's inherent in the disc and certainly not uncommon in movies. I just wanted to be sure there wasn't some additional motion anomaly on the VT50. Comparing the scenes I saw, I saw little difference in overall color quality, but this was far from a true A/B. Likewise it was difficult for me to assess detail relative to the Elite, both were excellent.
> 
> The styling was hit & miss for me. I like the full glass application but I thought it was really brought down by the bright silver surround. I don't know why they did that, but whatever.
> 
> As I said, first impression was nice, but not a replacement for me if I were looking for that screen size. I'll try to see it at another location.


Are you really comparing a non calibrated display in a store environment to a calibrated display in controlled room lighting with a dedicated signal?

I have to say that most store demos are a total waste of time. Its unfortunate but its something that we all want to do. It doesn't mean that we can draw accurate conclusions from it.


----------



## dsskid

Ken Ross said:


> Where you and I disagree David, is your qualifier. IMO the Elite is simply 'spectacular' for any display tech, not just LED LCD. This is coming from someone that would only buy plasmas (Pioneer Kuros and Fujitsus in the earlier plasma years) and would never have considered LCD or LED/LCD.
> 
> To my eyes (and many others) the Elite trumps anything on sale today. Yes, it has color issues, but I will tell you that virtually no owner sees the color errors where they exist. Cyan at the lower luminance levels is not typically seen and some stylized movies where the issue can be seen has debatable impact IMO.
> 
> I've always wondered how critical it is if a movie that is already tinted with 'wrong' colors is tinted slightly differently than what the 'director intended'. So instead of an overall amber tint, we have a slightly different amber hue. Does that really have any significant impact on the 'mood' the color creates? IMO, no. Unless you have the actual shade of the 'wrong' color the director intended, nobody would ever be aware.


Ken, this is a direct conflict with the principles of video calibration. Will it matter to the non-videophile, no. But most non-videophiles are not spending that much on a display, nor should they, for a display that does not properly reproduce what was mastered. It's about accuracy, not about what may be subjectively pleasing to the eye.


Ken Ross said:


> I say this only because this is the response I get from critics when I mention how rare the color cyan in the lower luminance levels is in typical non-stylized movies and TV shows. They then go on to say 'yes, but you can see it in some stylized movies'. OK, I get that. So what they're telling me is that the Elite will get the Director's wrong color 'wronger'.


"Two wrongs don't make a right." Like it or not, These stylized movies are becoming the trend.


Ken Ross said:


> Before you think I'm in denial, I'll mention that I was the first to recognize the cyan error on the Elite and mentioned this on the forums. This was months after its release and after several stellar reviews had been published.


 You were also one of the first few to get one. But to be honest, it was only a matter of time before it was recognized. I know it was readily apparent on MI:4 Ghost Protocol, and a few other new releases the other night.


Ken Ross said:


> On a personal note I find these stylized movies so overdone, that to me they've become trite and boring. But that's a subject for a different day.
> 
> As for more important color errors, if we demonstrated that an apple's color was wrong or something whose color was easily recognized was wrong, that's a totally different story in terms of the impact of color errors. For quite awhile I had both my Pioneer Pro 151 and my Elite. I did countless A/ on a huge range of materials and found very few instances where there was any detectable color differences of any significance. What was easily recognized in many instances, was the Elite's ability to trump the Kuro's dynamic range and create a more dynamic and engaging viewing experience.
> 
> It's too easy for some people to say 'the Elite's color is wrong'. There are an infinite number of areas where a color/colors can be wrong on a display. Many displays have color errors in far more common and easily seen areas of the color spectrum.


 This is correct, and I think the shootout did an excellent job in demonstrating this with the Calman 5.0 beta reports, where it measure color fidelity at 5 stimuli levels (20%, 40%, 60%, 80%, & 100%). Hopefully the manufacturers will take notice and tighten things up a bit.



Ken Ross said:


> All things considered, to my eyes the Elite has the ability to recreate 'reality' better than any display I've ever seen. I've had a number of guests come over, watch the Elite and say 'it almost looks 3D'. IMO that's the impact of a dynamic range that no plasma can match.


Again, very subjective because it is your eyes and your reality.

This is a shootout, and those in attendance are very critical to find the true "King" of displays for the given year. The top three were all excellent, and there is bound to be varying opinion based on which picture aspects are most important to the individual viewer. Some are willing to sacrifice .001 in black level to gain better color fidelity and off-axis viewing. To some, black level is everything, and color fidelity be forgotten. Honestly. most would be satisfied to have any of the top three in their homes.

It is what it is.


----------



## Ken Ross

JimP said:


> Are you really comparing a non calibrated display in a store environment to a calibrated display in controlled room lighting with a dedicated signal?
> 
> I have to say that most store demos are a total waste of time. Its unfortunate but its something that we all want to do. It doesn't mean that we can draw accurate conclusions from it.


No, actually both were 'calibrated' by BB. So yes, even though I'm not an advocate of BB calibrations, they were pretty much on equal footings.


----------



## Ken Ross

dsskid said:


> Again, very subjective because it is your eyes and your reality.
> 
> This is a shootout, and those in attendance are very critical to find the true "King" of displays for the given year. The top three were all excellent, and there is bound to be varying opinion based on which picture aspects are most important to the individual viewer. Some are willing to sacrifice .001 in black level to gain better color fidelity and off-axis viewing. To some, black level is everything, and color fidelity be forgotten. Honestly. most would be satisfied to have any of the top three in their homes.
> 
> It is what it is.


To be perfectly honest, and I said this over at AVS, I put the least amount of stock on how a display rates by the voting at the shootout. Even in last year's ratings where the Elite won, I simply didn't put much stock in that either. I do put stock in some of the very respected reviewers that do these reviews professionally. The shootouts are great and I thoroughly enjoy them, but to be fair, over 90% of the time is spent on test patterns and ultimately the attendees are influenced in their voting by these test patterns. I think they're informative, interesting and necessary, but in the end I watch TV and not test patterns. It's a fact that there are often departures between what the test patterns show and what our eyes see or what our ears hear. That's simply a fact believe it or not. It's true in video, it's true in audio.

Essentially what I am saying is that no display can reproduce all colors precisely. Some are better in some areas and some are better in other areas. IMO, and you can differ and obviously do, the color errors on the Elite are in an area that to ME is not as significant or as important as they would be in other areas of the color spectrum and at other luminance levels.

What I object to is the dismissive tone that many use on Elite owners 'well a videophile wouldn't accept that' or the 'Elites's colors are whacked'. Please. I and many other owners ARE videophiles and we DO appreciate accuracy. However the error that the Elite is exhibiting does not show up in the vast amount of programming that most of us watch, including movies.

If all I watched were these stylized movies shot in varying shades of amber, and getting that exact shade of amber was critical to me for the enjoyment of the movie, yes, perhaps I wouldn't purchase an Elite. But I don't get overly excited about a slightly different shade of amber on movies that are not part of my 'must see' list. Sorry, Clash of the Titans and its ilk don't rank high on my list. I grow weary of this stylized approach which to me is an excuse, in so many instances, for good movie making. But I digress.

In the end, if I was after what to ME was the best recreation of reality, the best image depth, the best black levels and the best dynamic range and, hold on now, for excellent color for the material I watch, yes, I'd do it all over again in a heartbeat...and I probably will, this time in a 70" version and maybe an 80" if we see that.


----------



## highendallday

Hey ken I feel the same way about the elite as you do.

I have the 60 Elite in my living room and got a great deal on the 65VT50 so I put it up in my loft. But between the two sets, I would say the elite hands down. I just cant get over how rich the black level is on the set. The VT50 looks amazing, but the elite in my eyes is a whole other world of tv. 

But it looks like I got the best of both worlds so Im good... But from an owner of both, the elite wins all day...


----------



## dsskid

Both professionally calibrated? At the shootout, although the Elite had a lower Mll...the VT50 appeared to have more depth.


----------



## highendallday

I had both displays calibrated at the same time, i had the elite recalibrated just for the purpose of comparison...

I put on dark knight and the elite feels like i can walk right into the scene, the vt50 although beautiful seems more static like a flat image... lots of detail just not the pow, that the elite has...

i still cant get over the blacks though its night and day...

bring on oled...:clap::clap:


----------



## dsskid

highendallday said:


> I had both displays calibrated at the same time, i had the elite recalibrated just for the purpose of comparison...
> 
> I put on dark knight and the elite feels like i can walk right into the scene, the vt50 although beautiful seems more static like a flat image... lots of detail just not the pow, that the elite has...
> 
> i still cant get over the blacks though its night and day...
> 
> bring on oled...:clap::clap:


hmmmm....because my impression at the shootout was just the opposite. I was sitting dead on from the both the VT50 and Sharp Elite, so it wasn't an off axis issue. 

There was a point during the Panasonic presentation, where there were a bunch of graphics on the screen, and one was an outline of a car in the lower left corner of the screens, with a white X in the middle of the car. and the x was less distinct in the Sharp. 

The Sharp did have very deep blacks and bright whites, but seemed to be lacking somewhat in the in-between, a little of a washed out look, and I wasn't the only one to notice.

I even asked D-Nice about the Sharp's gamma setting, because the picture looked flatter than the VT50's picture, and he stated the gamma was fine.

Again, I'm not trying to disrespect or offend the Sharp owners, I still think it's a hellofa display, and I'm in no way a brand hater or a fanboy. I own 2 Sharp LCDs, a Kuro Elite. a Panny plasma and a Samsung plasma. 

I'm simply stating my personal observations.


----------



## Ken Ross

highendallday said:


> Hey ken I feel the same way about the elite as you do.
> 
> I have the 60 Elite in my living room and got a great deal on the 65VT50 so I put it up in my loft. But between the two sets, I would say the elite hands down. I just cant get over how rich the black level is on the set. The VT50 looks amazing, but the elite in my eyes is a whole other world of tv.
> 
> But it looks like I got the best of both worlds so Im good... But from an owner of both, the elite wins all day...


And it's users like you that I put the most validity in! Just as I had the Pro 151 and was able to make endless A/B comparisons, you have that unique ability to do that with the 50 and the Elite. Thanks for the feedback and congrats on both displays!

It's important for some to understand that not everyone has an axe to grind. Some people are actually able to maintain a fair degree of objectivity.


----------



## Ken Ross

dsskid said:


> Both professionally calibrated? At the shootout, although the Elite had a lower Mll...the VT50 appeared to have more depth.


I just couldn't disagree more. With a much greater dynamic range, the Elite will have the greater depth. Just as a camera that has greater dynamic range can capture more highlights without blowing out details as well as detail in low lit areas, I feel the Elite does the same relative to plasma.

I see no reason why midrange detail would get lost.


----------



## Ken Ross

highendallday said:


> I had both displays calibrated at the same time, i had the elite recalibrated just for the purpose of comparison...
> 
> I put on dark knight and the elite feels like i can walk right into the scene, the vt50 although beautiful seems more static like a flat image... lots of detail just not the pow, that the elite has...
> 
> i still cant get over the blacks though its night and day...
> 
> bring on oled...:clap::clap:


Precisely! That's exactly what I was trying to explain. You did it better.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Here's two nice articles on the HDTV Shootout event.

Electronic House

Big Picture Big Sound

Enjoy!

-Robert


----------



## dsskid

Ken Ross said:


> I just couldn't disagree more. With a much greater dynamic range, the Elite will have the greater depth. Just as a camera that has greater dynamic range can capture more highlights without blowing out details as well as detail in low lit areas, I feel the Elite does the same relative to plasma.
> 
> I see no reason why midrange detail would get lost.


I don't feel the ned to try and change your mind, or to have you agree with me, I am simply posting my observations, and the observations of some others.

I am glad that you are enjoying your display, as no shootout should impact that.


----------



## Robert Zohn

CNET Senior Editor David Katzmaier just published a nice article on our HDTV Shootout.

-Robert


----------



## Ken Ross

dsskid said:


> I don't feel the ned to try and change your mind, or to have you agree with me, I am simply posting my observations, and the observations of some others.
> 
> I am glad that you are enjoying your display, as no shootout should impact that.


We can certainly agree on that!


----------



## natsume

Robert Zohn said:


> CNET Senior Editor David Katzmaier just published a nice article on our HDTV Shootout.
> 
> -Robert


Thanks Robert, 

I hope that you do invite David Katzmaier to the next shootout, he's a really nice guy, whereas, I don't know if Cnet will allow him to participate to the Shootout or not


----------



## Robert Zohn

Just spoke with David a moment ago and I we discussed his attendance at our next Shootout event. Hopefully he can attend.

-Robert


----------



## highendallday

Ok question about the scores on cnets posting, why are the elites scores on contrast and black level lower than last time, but now the color accuracy jumped up. 

Just wondering...


----------



## buzzard767

Ken Ross said:


> I just couldn't disagree more. With a much greater dynamic range, the Elite will have the greater depth. Just as a camera that has greater dynamic range can capture more highlights without blowing out details as well as detail in low lit areas, I feel the Elite does the same relative to plasma.
> 
> I see no reason why midrange detail would get lost.


The Elite's motion resolution is not as good as that of the VT50 and therein lies the answer.


----------



## natsume

Robert Zohn said:


> Just spoke with David a moment ago and I we discussed his attendance at our next Shootout event. Hopefully he can attend.
> 
> -Robert


Great, Thanks Robert.


----------



## DJG

dsskid said:


> hmmmm....because my impression at the shootout was just the opposite. I was sitting dead on from the both the VT50 and Sharp Elite, so it wasn't an off axis issue.
> 
> There was a point during the Panasonic presentation, where there were a bunch of graphics on the screen, and one was an outline of a car in the lower left corner of the screens, with a white X in the middle of the car. and the x was less distinct in the Sharp.
> 
> The Sharp did have very deep blacks and bright whites, but seemed to be lacking somewhat in the in-between, a little of a washed out look, and I wasn't the only one to notice.
> 
> I even asked D-Nice about the Sharp's gamma setting, because the picture looked flatter than the VT50's picture, and he stated the gamma was fine.
> 
> Again, I'm not trying to disrespect or offend the Sharp owners, I still think it's a hellofa display, and I'm in no way a brand hater or a fanboy. I own 2 Sharp LCDs, a Kuro Elite. a Panny plasma and a Samsung plasma.
> 
> I'm simply stating my personal observations.


Hey, dsskid, you must have been sitting right by me! I was a bit more towards the middle, between right and center maybe 20 degrees off the Elite and still had a good view of it. The Samsung rep didn't really appreciate my lack of appreciation of their cloud storage .

OOPS! Never mind - I just realized you were there Saturday, me on Sunday .

And I have to say I thought something was a bit off with the Elite, too bright I thought, where the highlights seemed washed out at times. It could have been a gamma thing, as I've seen that when I have experimented with my Elite's calibration (I use CalMAN DIY). I did mention it briefly but didn't pursue it. But it had the best visible blacks and better shadow detail than the VT50 IMHO. Again, there are some great options available to suite your specific preferences, and that's a great thing.

Last night I did a 2.4 Gamma calibration they were recommending for dim rooms but did not like it as much - went back to 2.2 (actually more like 2.25) .


----------



## dsskid

DJG said:


> Hey, dsskid, you must have been sitting right by me! I was a bit more towards the middle, between right and center maybe 20 degrees off the Elite and still had a good view of it. The Samsung rep didn't really appreciate my lack of appreciation of their cloud storage .
> 
> *And I have to say I thought something was a bit off with the Elite, too bright I thought, where the highlights seemed washed out at times. It could have been a gamma thing*, as I've seen that when I have experimented with my Elite's calibration (I use CalMAN DIY). I did mention it briefly but didn't pursue it. But it had the best visible blacks and better shadow detail than the VT50 IMHO. Again, there are some great options available to suite your specific preferences, and that's a great thing.
> 
> Last night I did a 2.4 Gamma calibration they were recommending for dim rooms but did not like it as much - went back to 2.2 (actually more like 2.25) .


I know I wasn't crazy. I'm glad you noticed the same thing I did. It does have excellent blacks. It just didn't have the depth, at least Saturday night.


----------



## Ken Ross

buzzard767 said:


> The Elite's motion resolution is not as good as that of the VT50 and therein lies the answer.


That may be the case, but for the material I've seen, the Elite still presents a significantly greater degree of depth to the image. Motion resolution (or lack thereof) does not explain the perception of image depth all by itself. Besides, the OP was talking about a static image.


----------



## Ken Ross

DJG said:


> Hey, dsskid, you must have been sitting right by me! I was a bit more towards the middle, between right and center maybe 20 degrees off the Elite and still had a good view of it. The Samsung rep didn't really appreciate my lack of appreciation of their cloud storage .
> 
> OOPS! Never mind - I just realized you were there Saturday, me on Sunday .
> 
> And I have to say I thought something was a bit off with the Elite, too bright I thought, where the highlights seemed washed out at times. It could have been a gamma thing, as I've seen that when I have experimented with my Elite's calibration (I use CalMAN DIY). I did mention it briefly but didn't pursue it. But it had the best visible blacks and better shadow detail than the VT50 IMHO. Again, there are some great options available to suite your specific preferences, and that's a great thing.


I wasn't there, but you certainly could be 100% correct. Remember how the Sony 929 had the wrong settings last year? I saw that right away and mentioned it to Kevin who then corrected it. The black levels were initially poor and I knew the Sony was capable of so much more. This is why you have to use the shootout as one data point. Mistakes are made all the time and it wouldn't be the first time a display was set up improperly. These guys have so many displays to calibrate and I'm sure they suffer from 'calibration fatigue' after awhile. It's the 'battle field' for calibrators!


----------



## DJG

buzzard767 said:


> The Elite's motion resolution is not as good as that of the VT50 and therein lies the answer.


The Elite's basic motion handling could be better, but a couple of their enhanced settings help (not the aggressive ones for sure), but it's mostly the 1080i conversion that can really be improved.


----------



## DJG

dsskid said:


> I know I wasn't crazy. I'm glad you noticed the same thing I did. It does have excellent blacks. It just didn't have the depth, at least Saturday night.


When it's spot on it's like 3D, but it was missing the bright level resolution I'm looking at right now .


----------



## Ken Ross

DJG said:


> When it's spot on it's like 3D, but it was missing the bright level resolution I'm looking at right now .


What's a shame is that some people, with little experience with a given display, can walk away from a shootout (or retailer) where a display is not adjusted properly and get a totally erroneous impression of its capabilities.

Again, this is just one data point. Hopefully people do further research and look at displays they're interested in, in other environments. When I find a display I'm really interested in, I'll go to multiple locations to watch it in different environments. This minimizes the chances of forming an opinion based on a defective display, a mis-adjusted display, a display in a lousy environment etc. We just need to be careful before coming to conclusions.


----------



## highendallday

Ok im gonna let this out right now,

Judging by the numbers from the 2011 shootout and the 2012 spring shootout, if Sharp could fix the technicality in the cyan color at a lower lumance level, it would be on par in the color category if not better than the vt50 just from it having the higher contrast and black level. So lets put it this way, let the elite have the same rating as the vt50 for color and take the elites best scores from both shootouts, and here we go... 

VT50- 9.19, 9.24, 9.42, 8.63, 9.31 = 9.158

ELITE- 9.72, 9.61, 9.42, 8.13, 8.92 = 9.16

So from a technical standpoint if the color fix was intact the Elite would still be HDTV King... Happy Hunting Everyone...:clap:


----------



## buzzard767

Ken Ross said:


> That may be the case, but for the material I've seen, the Elite still presents a significantly greater degree of depth to the image. Motion resolution (or lack thereof) does not explain the perception of image depth all by itself. Besides, the OP was talking about a static image.


Static images? Aren't you the one who has said repeatedly that you don't watch test patterns? 

And yes, I understand the perception of image depth and how it relates to contrast. Part of the contrast influence is the "sharp" delineation between black and lighter colors. The "perception" of sharpness is diminished on those same edges during movement so one tends to neutralize the other.


----------



## Ken Ross

buzzard767 said:


> Static images? Aren't you the one who has said repeatedly that you don't watch test patterns?


I was responding to the point raised by the OP on a static image. This has nothing to do with my preferences or test patterns, but rather my response to his comments on a picture. 

With motion, without motion, to my eyes the Elite has greater depth and it's not a particularly close contest either IMO.

We see things differently and that's fine. You found a display you love and so did I. Win win guy.


----------



## highendallday

Ken Ross said:


> I was responding to the point raised by the OP on a static image. This has nothing to do with my preferences or test patterns, but rather my response to his comments on a picture.
> 
> With motion, without motion, to my eyes the Elite has greater depth and it's not a particularly close contest either IMO.
> 
> We see things differently and that's fine. You found a display you love and so did I. Win win guy.


Here Here Ken, I have both displays like I already posted, and the Elite wins to me hands down... 
Im not a fanboy of the Elite either, and just so everyone knows I have awesome eye sight 12 in the left and 15 in the right eye, so when I did my eyesight comparison after the tvs were calibrated the elite just stood out more. The vibrancy in the colors were deep and lush, blacks bled into night and movement seemed more natural overall. 
Here is the kicker, My wife loves the Elite and thinks Im an idiot to spend another 3400 on the VT50. 

Everyone has an opinion and thats my opinion... Thanks for reading...


----------



## Ken Ross

highendallday said:


> Here Here Ken, I have both displays like I already posted, and the Elite wins to me hands down...
> Im not a fanboy of the Elite either, and just so everyone knows I have awesome eye sight 12 in the left and 15 in the right eye, so when I did my eyesight comparison after the tvs were calibrated the elite just stood out more. The vibrancy in the colors were deep and lush, blacks bled into night and movement seemed more natural overall.
> Here is the kicker, My wife loves the Elite and thinks Im an idiot to spend another 3400 on the VT50.
> 
> Everyone has an opinion and thats my opinion... Thanks for reading...


Well there's your problem highendallday, your eyesight is just too good!!!! Put on a pair of fogged up lenses and they'll both look the same to you.


----------



## highendallday

haha tu shea


----------



## Gregr

I am simply going to state the obvious. Obvious to most anyway. The first thing to go in eyesight after age 30 is contrast and black level. To me i can see where some over 30's would love the Elite whereas everybody else will love the VT50. Panasonic is making a great Tv but I am sixty so I believe I will buy the Elite especially after this shootout and after listening to all of you. Ken, join the average group, anybody can be a videophile they just have to want to tell people they are. I will not placate and imaginary premise most refer to in sarcasm while others lay claim to a self proclaimed mystique to justify outrageous behavior. I guess I'm simply saying lets just all act our age. It is OK to get older except when you invest in remaining young.


----------



## highendallday

Gregr said:


> I am simply going to state the obvious. Obvious to most anyway. The first thing to go in eyesight after age 30 is contrast and black level. To me i can see where some over 30's would love the Elite whereas everybody else will love the VT50. Panasonic is making a great Tv but I am sixty so I believe I will buy the Elite especially after this shootout and after listening to all of you. Ken, join the average group, anybody can be a videophile they just have to want to tell people they are. I will not placate and imaginary premise most refer to in sarcasm while others lay claim to a self proclaimed mystique to justify outrageous behavior. I guess I'm simply saying lets just all act our age. It is OK to get older except when you invest in remaining young.


I'm 26 if that means anything lol :bigsmile:


----------



## Gregr

Yes 26 with eyesight of 12 - 15..., I am sorry but you will experience night-blindness soon if not now. This is difficulty seeing in the dusky hours and at night but you will notice difficulty focusing earlier in the evening and as time goes on. Others will notice our difficulty before we finally admit to ourselves that we are getting older. Its OK though there is always a way. I am happy to know about Pioneer and Sharp's Elite. But I still want to see a 55" OLED so I am waiting for the Fall Shoot out. You all do a great job of bringing it for all to see for themselves, all in our own way. 

I am glad to have objective testing done it has its place but like some have said the bottom line for me (every pun intended) is how "I" see the bottom line.


----------



## Whamboozled

When will the videos be uploaded to youtube?


----------



## mechman

Whamboozled said:


> When will the videos be uploaded to youtube?


I believe I saw the 28th mentioned somewhere.


----------



## RandyWalters

mechman said:


> I believe I saw the 28th mentioned somewhere.


I'll second that belief - that's the date that i remember being mentioned (i think by Kevin M).


----------



## Robert Zohn

I just put up a ton of new material, new pictures, the two segments of our Youtube video, all of the rankings from the audience and experts. Take a look!

-Robert


----------



## rab-byte

I missed the shootout. Did gaming lag get any attention?


----------



## Robert Zohn

Sorry we did not measure input lag time. I'll work on this measurement on Kevin Miller's next visit.

Just wanted to let everyone know we now have 16 video segments up on our youtube page.

Enjoy!

-Robert


----------



## mechman

Disregard this. I just realized these were ANSI contrast values. Peak luminance readings were where they should be.

It is a bit troubling though to see the discrepancy between on/off and ANSI ratios on the Elite. :scratch:


----------



## Robert Zohn

What discrepancy ^^ are you referring to?

-Robert


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## mechman

Robert Zohn said:


> What discrepancy ^^ are you referring to?
> 
> -Robert


That the Elite's on/off contrast ratio is 5 times that of the VT50. And yet the Elite's ANSI contrast ratio is roughly 60% of the VT50's. I would have thought that these would have been more linear. Just goes to show you though, you cannot rely on one set of values. 

I can tell you that the Elite looked best, contrast-wise, via the livestream. And it must have looked best in person as it had no trouble winning both the black level and contrast categories.

The rest of the categories are very difficult, if not impossible, to discern via the webcast.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Yes the Elite TV delivers the best black level and highest luminance levels without clipping or crushing. But in overall pq, motion resolution and color accuracy the VT50's advancements helped it win the Shootout evaluation event.

-Robert


----------



## esquire415

I think the shootout would have been more interesting if they were compared against the now defunct Pioneer Kuro. I think the KRP-500m was the last TV Pioneer made that has the 9G panel. It is still the reference for black levels. Neither the Sharp Elite nor the Panasonic VT50 has surpassed it I believe.


----------



## dsskid

Robert,
Any timeframe when you'll be adding the calibration charts for each shootout display on your website?
John


----------



## Robert Zohn

I'll get them posted on our home page by the end of today if not sooner. 

-Robert


----------



## dsskid

Robert Zohn said:


> I'll get them posted on our home page by the end of today if not sooner.
> 
> -Robert


No rush, I know you're busy. Just wanted to know when to look for them.


----------



## tele1962

Hey Robert and everyone, any news on the next shootout?:T


----------



## Robert Zohn

Hi tele1962. Sorry no firm date at this moment. We're waiting for LG and Samsung to announce the launch dates so we can schedule our the OLED vs. the top two panels (TC-PxxVT50 and Elite PRO-60X5FD) from our 2012 Flat Panel Shootout.

Stand by for more updates.

-Robert


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## tele1962

Anymore news yet Robert as i am sure David and the rest of us are chomping at the bit to see you guys again LOL:wave:


----------



## mechman

I haven't heard anything on the OLED front in awhile. Once there is something announced I'm certain Robert will be the first to announce it here. :T


----------



## Robert Zohn

My take is early November at best for the first two 55" OLEDs. 

We're moving our showroom and warehousing to the center of the downtown village of Scarsdale, NY. Our village store is one of the larger, flagship stores in town and we're merchandising to demonstrate futurist living styles and new entertainment applications that are attached to our smart large screen panels. We're having fun and we're anxious to demonstrate what our visions are of a connected, advanced high-end modern living environment can now offer to a large demographic of our population.

Enjoy!

-Robert


----------



## David Mackenzie

Can't wait to see the new store, Robert. I remember you mentioning a possible move.


----------



## NYPete

Robert, when the new store opens, definitely post the info. I'll have to swing by and say hi and check out the new place. Best of Luck with it. I'm sure it will be great and have some exciting setups as TVs and receivers now interact with iPads, phones, all kinds of great stuff that really wasn't present a few years ago. If done well, as I am sure you will do it, I think it will expose some people that might not up on every new CE development how cool some of the products can be today.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Thanks Pete! We're well planned to exploit all of the very recent advances in a/v and control systems. 

Looking forward to seeing you at the new store, 35 Popham Rd, Scarsdale, NY

-Robert


----------



## Turbe

What happen to La Dentelliere? 

anyways, how many square feet is the new location? Actually, how big is the current?


----------



## Robert Zohn

They moved ^^ around the corner and left me a great store to take over! 14' ceilings, full basement with inside access. 3x larger than our current store that we have enjoyed for more than 15 years. 

-Robert


----------



## Turbe

will you be able to accommodate more people at a Shootout?


----------



## Robert Zohn

Yes, and we're looking for a VIP guest from WA. Hey you could easily be that gentleman. 

We're considering moving the 2013 Shootout to a large NYC conference room so we can accommodate up to 100 people and have the event one day rather than the two days we have done for the past 8 years.

-Robert


----------



## tele1962

Robert Zohn said:


> Yes, and we're looking for a VIP guest from WA. Hey you could easily be that gentleman.
> 
> We're considering moving the 2013 Shootout to a large NYC conference room so we can accommodate up to 100 people and have the event one day rather than the two days we have done for the past 8 years.
> 
> -Robert


Sounds great Robert.................please when you get time post some pics of the new store.:T


----------



## Turbe

haha, thank you for the invite and past invites.. I'll want to visit eventually.. could make it a double at Kevin's Long Beach Poker Club now that that judge ruled Texas Hold 'Em is not gambling...

Please post some pics of the showroom once you open


----------



## Robert Zohn

Thank you Turbe! I'll post some photos once we get the store built-out and decorated. Should be by the end of September.

-Robert


----------



## tele1962

You get my PM Robert?

Reply recieved, thanks Robert.:TT


----------



## ALMFamily

Robert,

I would love to be able to attend next year's event - any idea approximately when it would be so I can start planning vacation time? 

Joe


----------



## bxbigpipi

Would love to attend next time.


----------



## Kalik

has the 2nd Shootout event, pitting the top performing panels from the 1st Shootout against OLED been officially cancelled?


----------



## Robert Zohn

Hi kalik, no, we're going ahead with the two OLEDs against the VT50 and Elite X5FD. Just waiting for Samsung and LG to launch their 55" OLEDs.

-Robert


----------



## csweep44

Robert is there any word on when the OLED's will be in stores?

Charlie


----------



## tripplej

I saw an article today in cnet, about Samsung and LG going to delay 55-inch OLED TVs until 2013 due to problems with manufacturing. Maybe Robert may have more concrete dates in 2013?


----------



## Robert Zohn

At this moment my educated guess is end of November at the earliest for one of the expected 55" OLED displays. I'll update here as I get more insider information.

-Robert


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## tripplej

Great. Thanks for the update. Hopefully you will get an OLED display this year.


----------



## David Mackenzie

That'd be amazing if you got them in November, Robert! Can't wait to get on that flight.


----------



## hristoslav2

Robert Zohn said:


> At this moment my educated guess is end of November at the earliest for one of the expected 55" OLED displays. I'll update here as I get more insider information.
> 
> -Robert


*Robert*
I have some comments on the previous shootout ...
1. Comparing TVs using different technologies -plasma & LCD / had to split them into two groups.
2. Compare LCD TVs
- Using a different type of backlight
- Using a different type of matrix

MVA matrices such as those manufactured by Sharp, Samsung, AUOptronics have contrast from 2500:1 to 5000:1
While IPS matrices produced by Panasonic, LG and Chimay Innolux have contrast from 500:1 to 850:1

Panasonic TC-P65VT50 65-inch plasma HDTV
Samsung PN64E8000 64-inch plasma HDTV
LG 60PM9700 60-inch plasma HDTV

Samsung UN60ES8000 60-inch LED-lit LCD HDTV (side lit) - LSJ600HQ01(Samsung) - *SPVA matrix type*
ELITE PRO-60X5FD 60-inch LED/LCD with local dimming LK600D3LB(Sharp) - *UV2A matrix type*
Panasonic TC-L47WT50 47-inch LED-lit LCD - VVX47F130A20(Panasonic)- *IPS-Alpha matrix type*

What you have done is amateur...I do not want to offend anyone.

Often due to running out of stocks of a particular model videopanel be placed videopanels another model with a different type of matrix.
This applies in almost all manufacturers of TVs. Thus, when making measurements, to inquire by what model is videopanel measurements of your TV.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/lcd-...-matrices-differences-what-models-placed.html

http://www.panelook.com/modelsearch.php


----------



## Robert Zohn

Hello hristoslav2, thanks for registering at HTS and for your post. I understand and appreciate your information. I was a TV Broadcast engineer and understand display technologies.

Nine years ago, when I first started our "Flat Panel HDTV Shootout" evaluation event we separated LCD from PDP, but as the LCD/LED panels improved we began evaluating them in their class and then as a group. We place the LCD based displays at eye level and the plasma's lined up butt-to-butt on the top row. We very carefully, thoroughly and scientifically test, measure and evaluate each panel individually and then in their class (LCD or PDP) and finally as a group. 

I build a video display lab in my store for the shootout, everything is done with scientific purity and is monitored by industry experts and each manufacturer inspects our complete set-up to ensure an even playing field for all displays in the evaluation event.

Interestingly, the Elite display won our 2011 Shootout, the first year an LCD/LED beat the PDPs. 

The reason I combine the technologies in the final analysis is that the buying public is interested in finding out who actually makes the best TV for any given year and we do very clearly evaluate each category separately and then as a group so we do exactly what you are suggesting.

Finally, I understand that manufacturers make hardware and firmware changes in each model year, but all we can do is take a snapshot of what is being built at the time of the event, no different than what every professional evaluator does. The only difference we add to the evaluation is the Shootout that pits every brand's flagship model all lined-up next to each other so our panel of experts and the participating public have the opportunity to compare each panel against each-other in a scientific environment with the proper test and measurement equipment and SMPTE and other specialized text patterns with instruction and education by the top level II ISF instructor, Mr. Kevin Miller along with our hand picked panel of experts.

Finally, I encourage and appreciate all criticism, advice and suggestions that's how we got the event to be as great as it is. BTW, when we completely separated the categories I got the harshest criticism for doing so. Overall I do this because I enjoy doing so and personally I like to compare the leading display technologies and can't wait for the day that I can pit the anticipated OLEDs against the best PDP and LEDs! 

Please take a look at our 2012 Shootout's 5+ hours of video we have archived on our YouTube feed and let me know if you have any further questions, comments or suggestions. Almost 1/4 million unique viewers have watched our YouTube Shootout and several thousand more have watched on-live during our live HD Broadcast. 70 lucky participants join us in the audience.

Kind regards,

-Robert


----------



## hristoslav2

Hi Robert

Still not right. It is good to separate groups LCD TVs
- with VA matrices
- with IPS matrices

Then type subgroups used backlight
- Direct local dimming /Elite PRO, Toshiba ZL2, Philips 60PFL9607/
- Horizontal (or vertical) local dimming /LG xxLM6xx (or 7xx), Panasonic TX-LxxWT50 to ET5/
- Edge led
- Direct led

- with Scanning backlight (number of sectors)

LG LM670





3 bloks scanning backlight LM6700
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NNYi3hXEbH4


You will understand what type of Motion interpolation used in a model.
http://www.tunisia-high-tech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Clear-motion-rate-samsung-2.png
Then they can qualify for this indicator....

Here I have collected some information on European models..
http://forum.setcombg.com/телевизор...рва-страница-обсъждане-мнения.html#post509846

http://forum.setcombg.com/телевизор...ица-обсъждане-мнения-част-4-a.html#post565567

http://forum.setcombg.com/телевизор...ица-обсъждане-мнения-част-3-a.html#post438194

http://forum.setcombg.com/телевизор...ица-обсъждане-мнения-част-5-a.html#post589588

http://forum.setcombg.com/телевизор...ица-обсъждане-мнения-част-3-a.html#post434101

Sharp puts Direct LED panels with Local Dimming, only in Elite PRO-70X5FD and ELITE PRO-60X5FD for American and Japanese market, but not for European .....
Sharp LC-70LE835E / Direct LED without Local Dimming (European model)
http://www.fullhd.gr/hdtvs/lcd-tvs/13501-sharp-lc-70le835e.html 
The model had the same panel as in Elite PRO70FX, but without Local Dimming

Philips 60PFL9607 had the same panel as in Elite PRO60FX


Well your selected plasma TVs - all flagship models set contrast and anti-reflection filter.
http://forum.setcombg.com/телевизор...ица-обсъждане-мнения-част-3-a.html#post433901


You can compare the new 84 "4K TVs 
lg 84lm960v
http://www.fullhd.gr/item/14556-lg-84lm960v-hands-on.html
Sony XBR-84X900 and Toshiba 84" 4K

All these models are with panels from LG
http://www.panelook.com/modeldetail.php?id=16898


Greetings from Bulgaria

Hristoslav


----------



## ALMFamily

hristoslav2 said:


> Hi Robert
> 
> Still not right. It is good to separate groups LCD TVs
> - with VA matrices
> - with IPS matrices
> 
> Then type subgroups used backlight
> - Direct local dimming /Elite PRO, Toshiba ZL2, Philips 60PFL9607/
> - Horizontal (or vertical) local dimming /LG xxLM6xx (or 7xx), Panasonic TX-LxxWT50 to ET5/
> - Edge led
> - Direct led
> 
> - with Scanning backlight (number of sectors)
> 
> LG LM670
> LG Cinema 3D LM670S scanning backlight - YouTube
> 
> 3 bloks scanning backlight LM6700
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NNYi3hXEbH4
> 
> 
> You will understand what type of Motion interpolation used in a model.
> http://www.tunisia-high-tech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Clear-motion-rate-samsung-2.png
> Then they can qualify for this indicator....
> 
> Here I have collected some information on European models..
> http://forum.setcombg.com/телевизор...рва-страница-обсъждане-мнения.html#post509846
> 
> http://forum.setcombg.com/телевизор...ица-обсъждане-мнения-част-4-a.html#post565567
> 
> http://forum.setcombg.com/телевизор...ица-обсъждане-мнения-част-3-a.html#post438194
> 
> http://forum.setcombg.com/телевизор...ица-обсъждане-мнения-част-5-a.html#post589588
> 
> http://forum.setcombg.com/телевизор...ица-обсъждане-мнения-част-3-a.html#post434101
> 
> Sharp puts Direct LED panels with Local Dimming, only in Elite PRO-70X5FD and ELITE PRO-60X5FD for American and Japanese market, but not for European .....
> Sharp LC-70LE835E / Direct LED without Local Dimming (European model)
> http://www.fullhd.gr/hdtvs/lcd-tvs/13501-sharp-lc-70le835e.html
> The model had the same panel as in Elite PRO70FX, but without Local Dimming
> 
> Philips 60PFL9607 had the same panel as in Elite PRO60FX
> 
> 
> Well your selected plasma TVs - all flagship models set contrast and anti-reflection filter.
> http://forum.setcombg.com/телевизор...ица-обсъждане-мнения-част-3-a.html#post433901
> 
> 
> You can compare the new 84 "4K TVs
> lg 84lm960v
> http://www.fullhd.gr/item/14556-lg-84lm960v-hands-on.html
> Sony XBR-84X900 and Toshiba 84" 4K
> 
> All these models are with panels from LG
> http://www.panelook.com/modeldetail.php?id=16898
> 
> 
> Greetings from Bulgaria
> 
> Hristoslav


I think you are missing the point of the shootout - as a consumer, I want to see a comparison of all sets side by side to make as educated a choice as I can based on the thing that matters most to me - how the picture looks to me. As just your ordinary run of the mill consumer, this is what I feel the shootout provides and I appreciate the amount of time and effort Robert spends to set all this up.

If I wanted to break comparisons down to specific types, I would spend more time researching beyond what Robert provides.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Thanks Hristoslav for your follow-up and ALMFamily for your comments. 

We do identify and review the pros and cons of the types of panels. For example we pointed out the benefit of excellent off axes viewing on Panasonic's WT50 series 2nd generation of the Alpha IPS panel and it's disadvantage of lower contrast ratio and other anomalies. We also discuss the various PDP firing order schemes employed by each manufacturer and the internal engines and processing that deliver benefits and disadvantages. 

But, all these very technical issues and differences becomes less important to the value we're providing with our Shootout, which is simply to evaluate the picture quality of each display and determining who makes the best TV for each model year. We are strictly looking at all display technologies of the flagship models from each premium manufacturer. And when OLED and 4K comes to market we'll gladly put them on our famous Shootout wall to see the actual differences in each model and technology. 

Our Shootout event is very technical, but if we spent all the time necessary to review all of the content you are suggesting our audience would be limited to the "panel development engineers" and not the discerning high-end buying public. 

Hope this helps explain what our goals are in putting on our annual "Flat Panel HDTV Shootout" 

-Robert


----------



## DJG

ALMFamily said:


> I think you are missing the point of the shootout - as a consumer, I want to see a comparison of all sets side by side to make as educated a choice as I can based on the thing that matters most to me - how the picture looks to me. As just your ordinary run of the mill consumer, this is what I feel the shootout provides and I appreciate the amount of time and effort Robert spends to set all this up.
> 
> If I wanted to break comparisons down to specific types, I would spend more time researching beyond what Robert provides.


I fully agree. As an attendee of the shootout, I want to see how the TVs perform against each other. I'm not necessarily looking for "the best LCD", which I can still do. I'm looking for the best TVs ranked, which is the basis of the shootout. I believe that's Robert's objective. If you don't agree with this objective that's fine, but you should then look for a different event.

Maybe as a followup to the shootout we can analyze why this one was better than that one, but frankly we're not looking for excuses .


----------



## David Mackenzie

At the 2012 shootout, I did briefly mention the UV2A subpixel layout, but the possibility of discussing different LCD panel modes was limited. Simple reason - all of the most interesting displays there, other than the Sharp Elite, were plasmas... it's the differences with those that we talked about most.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Things are not going well for Samsung and LG in getting OLED panel yields where they need to be so it looks like production will be delayed and supply will be very constrained. 

Based on the latest information we're now planning on including OLED and all of the new 1080p and 4K displays in our early Q2 2013 "Flat Panel HDTV Shootout" evaluation event. This will be the Mother of all Flat Panel Shootouts!

I'll update the exact models that will be in the 2013 Shootout when I'm at CES in early January.

Stay tuned!

-Robert


----------



## hristoslav2

*Robert*
I ask you to do termopicture of all the models. 
As in this review
http://www.digitalversus.com/tv-television/philips-46pfl5507h-p12867/test.html
It is important to see the screen uniformity, which affects the color temperature and depth effect in 3d mode.
http://img1.lesnumeriques.com/test/68/6873/46PFL5507H_LED.jpg
If you have speed camera can shoot short 20 second clip and analyze motion interpolation...


----------



## Robert Zohn

Thanks hristoslav2, I pass your very good idea to Kevin Miller our Master Calibrator and Key Note presenter.

-Robert


----------



## tele1962

Really looking forward to the 2013 shootout, as this year is one of the most exciting in years for AV tech.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Amen to that tele1962! Much of the 2013 crop look quite good, big jump forward in display technology!

Cheers,

-Robert


----------



## AVoldMan

The Shoot-out concept and unedited video feed is always excellent for capturing the live audio comments, discussions and some of the video (picture) quality. However, as a possible method to further improve the HDTV model comparisons it would be nice to post high resolution still display photos. These would be from a single digital camera taken under the same lighting conditions and distance. This would help with a direct product comparision for online viewers (I live in FLA).

The one or two different photos (for each TV) could be a demanding test for color/contrast with an actual photograph or particular test pattern that was good at revealing differences between models or display technologies. Whatever, makes sense to show the differences on a level playing field. I realize a still photo test would not test any motion effects but it might add additional data for those parameters it could represent accurately. Something that shows what those who are lucky enough to be at your store and witness in person observe. 

Just a thought for a better "shoot-out"! This event has a *high standard* that has yet been beaten (nor equalled)! Good luck with this year's event!


----------



## Robert Zohn

Thanks, ^^ very good advice! We'll post high res still photos.

-Robert


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## AVoldMan

Robert Zohn said:


> Thanks... We'll post high res still photos.


Great! This might be an excellent use for the THX Tune-up Application software. It may be an easy way to implement the test? 

Looking forward to the addition. Hopefully, the calibration experts will have a consensus of one or two difficult still pictures.


----------



## kamenoff

Guys, any news for the annual Shootout? What TVs will be lined -up this year?


----------



## ALMFamily

Check the thread here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ue-electronics-9th-annual-shootout-event.html


----------



## rab-byte

Will the Sony 900A be included in the shoot out?


----------



## mechman

rab-byte said:


> Will the Sony 900A be included in the shoot out?


See the new thread here. It will be included but no decision has been made as to whether or not the participants will be allowed to vote on it.


----------



## JimShaw

Has there been any news when the 2014 Shoot-out might happen? Robert mentioned that it might be in June sometime.


----------



## Ken Ross

I believe it's set for some time in July. Robert will clarify.


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## vinnie97

It could be pushed back as late as August now, and most sets will be in the 79" range.


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## Ken Ross

^ Well for 4K sets, I wouldn't mind that being the focus for size.


----------



## vinnie97

Right, but based on a recent interview that aired, I get the impression there won't be many that make an appearance whatsoever in the more common 65" range. It also makes inclusion of the 55" OLED seem like an afterthought...might as well delay it until you can procure the 77"-incher.


----------



## Robert Zohn

HI Vinny, we are working closely with Toshiba to include their upcoming 65L9400U, which is a 65" direct lit full array and we're also working very closely with Vizio on their new M2 series full array locally dimmed TV. Samsung;s 64" F8500 will make a reappearance as it's the 2013 champ and a carry over into the 2014 line up.

We has always planned on including LG's OLED and I'm happy to see the upgraded 2014 series 55EC9300, with higher peak luminance, nicer pedestal stand that is removable. Also the new LG OLED series is wall mountable.

We've also tested all of the 65", 75", 78" and 85" to be sure the 84"/85" represent the smaller screen sizes. I decided to go with the largest panel sizes to exploit the true benefit of the Ultra HD and to make the attendees see the screens better from any distance. Although we have the attendees parade directly in front of all of the displays when casting votes for picture quality attributes.

BTW, are your the same Vinny that is a popular and well respected member of AVS Forum?

I appreciate and encourage all of the recommendations and criticisms. Much of the decisions we make are based on input from the public.

Just in case anyone missed my one-on-one interview with Scott Wilkinson or my CE Week speaker session here they are for everyone's convenience. Please like them on Facebook if you enjoy what you see and hear.

http://youtu.be/_2LBuO9Z994

http://youtu.be/TfhabseIxw8

Enjoy,

-Robert


----------



## vinnie97

Yea, Robert, you caught me!  Well respected by some, I suppose.  Memberships at AVS are overrated. Thanks for all the latest details. I take it the 77" OLED is out of the question due to the manufacturing schedule being pushed back to October at the earliest? I guess the Vizio P series (to say nothing of the R) is also in a similar boat.


----------



## Robert Zohn

I would say you are well respected by many.  

Yes, I can only accept production units and they must come from my personal inventory and randomly chosen. I actually go to our warehouse and go "eenie meeney miney moe you are in this year's TV Shootout" for each model that was selected to be in the competition. Typically we have 3 to 6 of each model in our first allocation. The only time we made an exception was last year for the ZT60 and Panasonic air freighted two from the very first production from the Mexico factory.

Yes, I'd love Vizio's "P" and "R" series, but they are not ready. In fact, the only reason we are considering Vizio's "M" series is due to the forums strong request. We would not normally select a mid range series from any manufacturer as the event is all about the flagship models from each manufacturer.

I'd love for you to participate in this year's TV Shootout, can you make it? This is our tenth annual TV Shootout evaluation event.

-Robert


----------



## vinnie97

Thanks for the kind words, which I would be remiss not to reciprocate, as well as the invitation. I know there's a limited amount of floorspace so I don't take the offer lightly. Yes, a lot of excitement over Vizio not to mention the fact this is, as you inferred, the 10th anniversary! I would like to attend but probably won't be able to afford the jaunt at this time. I'm enough of an AV junkie who spent too much on the LG OLED this year along with some home projects and is paying dearly for all it (and already had a mini-vacation of sorts this year ). With the excellent coverage that has been typically provided, I'm sure I'll be able to enjoy it from a distance once again. One of these years!


----------



## NYPete

It is good to hear a Vizio will be in the shootout - they are generating a huge amount of buzz this year. The R and P series would be most appropriate (maybe next year if they are well received when they finally come out at the end of the year), but the M will be interesting. Also good to see so many companies doing direct-lit full array LED, including Toshiba in its return to the shootout. Direct lit full array local dimming seemed poised to be the next development in LCDs several years ago, and then almost every company (including Samsung) seemed to abandon it in favor of edge-lighting for thinness. Good to see a useful technology being put back into place for picture quality.


----------



## davidjschenk

It is nice to see local dimming make a comeback, I agree, and the return of Toshiba is wonderful (I wonder if this means "Toshiba Bruce" will be at the shootout this year). I doubt that it really was thinness that drove LD away, though. Call me cynical, but my impression was the lawsuits were what killed it. It's ironic: Sharp won on the lawsuits, but lost on then delivering the technology to consumers. It was a shame--I really loved those new Kuros. They got everything except the colors right on the money.

Yours,

David


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## vinnie97

And the viewing angles.


----------



## davidjschenk

Yeah, those have always been a big hurdle. I thought Sharp/Pioneer's handling of them was the savviest, as few people view from off axis vertically, but many do horizontally. Still, even with that trick it's a problem.

Yours,

David


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## vinnie97

My ZT60 can't be trusted vertically due to the AR coating, but horizontally I'm golden (and that's the main off-angle directional orientation need I have).


----------



## davidjschenk

vinnie97 said:


> My ZT60 can't be trusted vertically due to the AR coating, but horizontally I'm golden (and that's the main off-angle directional orientation need I have).


Oooo...that's a whopper of a panel you got yourself right there, Vinnie. I'm jealous.

So, I've been out of the loop with AV for three years; help me out and fill me in on just how many locally dimmed sets there are this year. And do we know how many will be in the shootout? Are any of them UHD?

-David


----------



## vinnie97

It is indeed a pleasure to watch (along with the LG OLED in the adjacent room, I'm blessed!).

We're still waiting on the full lineup, but I am not sure if any of the 79"+ screens do have local dimming. I believe all of them (short of the 55" OLED) will be UHD.


----------



## Robert Zohn

We're putting Samsung's F8500 PDP back in the Shootout and it will sadly be the only plasma display competing this year. Wish we could have the pro's choice again, which was the VT/ZT60, but they are now long gone. 

LG's new flagship Ultra HDTV, the UB9800 just passed our final tests and will be included. We're getting to the finish line and by the end of this week we'll have the list of contenders and announce our 2014 TV Shootout event date.

-Robert


----------



## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> We're putting Samsung's F8500 PDP back in the Shootout and it will sadly be the only plasma display competing this year. Wish we could have the pro's choice again, which was the VT/ZT60, but they are now long gone.
> 
> LG's new flagship Ultra HDTV, the UB9800 just passed our final tests and will be included. We're getting to the finish line and by the end of this week we'll have the list of contenders and announce our 2014 TV Shootout event date.
> 
> -Robert


Robert

What are your thoughts so far regarding LG's OLED?


----------



## rab-byte

Robert if you don't mind could you post a tentative list of the TVs that will be appearing in the shoutout and what if any special scoring will be done between the one plasma, led, oled, and if 4k/UHD will be its own class?


----------



## Robert Zohn

Jim, LG's OLED is stunning. It's truly beautiful to see pure black in images where black levels are low. Contrast ratio is king when it comes to a truly stunning and dynamic and highly detailed image.

rab-bite, I'll release the final selection of display that will be in this year's TV Shootout by the end of next week. For now I do have some very cool information to share.

Just this second I was able to confirm our 2014 TV Shootout date for Saturday, August 16th beginning at 6PM and Sunday, August 17th at 3PM.

I’ve been working very hard this year to make our 10th annual TV Shootout evolve and ascend with the times. To that end I have some very exciting news to announce:

Dr. Larry Weber and Joe Kane will be joining us for the Shootout this year! They will be making special presentations that will interest our followers and the industry. 

For now here’s one more change for this year I can share. Our agenda has been upgraded; the manufacturer’s trainers who have been product feature presenters at all of our previous TV Shootout events will be replaced with each manufacturers’ senior executive and or a factory engineer.

More information to come soon!

Happy July 4th!

-Robert


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## davidjschenk

That's great news--thanks, Robert!

Yours,

David


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## NYPete

Robert, that sounds terrific. It seems the shootout will be better than ever this year with the guests as well as the huge TVs you are planning on including. Should be another great event and particularly useful this year as the industry is in a transition period and there are many different technologies and resolutions at play. 

In previous years, the race for best HDTV was usually between 2 TVs, any other winner would be shocking. Not so this year - there are so many compelling TVs, it will be fascinating to see which gets the crown and how all these technologies and sizes and resolutions compete against other. Can't wait.

Happy Independence Day!


----------



## mechman

Great work Robert! I can't wait! :T


----------



## Robert Zohn

Thanks Pete, David. Mech and everyone reading this forum. We're having fun with this year's TV Shootout event. 

Here's an article published by the editor of Big Picture Big Sound 

Take a quick read, I think you will like what you see. 

-Robert


----------



## Robert Zohn

Just a quick update on our 2014 TV Shootout event. I listed the models that are being included and the few that are still actively being tested in our final evaluation. 

Another interesting tidbit is we're adding a third voting category for the professional TV reviewers who are attending the TV Shootout. So we'll be releasing the results of the competition at the close of the second night in three voting categories, the general public, the professional editors and reviewers and our panel of experts. 

Also, Joe Kane and Dr. Larry Weber will be our Key Note Presenters. 

Tomorrow morning we're beginning to accept emailed requests to attend and participate in this year's TV evaluation Shootout. You can get an advance email application request on our website along with the latest updates.

Hope to see many of you at the event!

-Robert


----------



## mechman

It gets better every year Robert! :T


----------



## Robert Zohn

Residential Retailer's article on our 2014 TV Shootout came out this afternoon.

Take a look.

-Robert


----------



## AbstrateGyk

Robert, I would like to know if OLED would have the same problems as regular LCD displays which has that "soap opera" effect. Does OLED produce the same film-like picture quality as plasma displays? Does OLED pretty much did away with all the problems that LCD displays (and plasmas for that matter) have?


----------



## rab-byte

AbstrateGyk said:


> Robert, I would like to know if OLED would have the same problems as regular LCD displays which has that "soap opera" effect. Does OLED produce the same film-like picture quality as plasma displays? Does OLED pretty much did away with all the problems that LCD displays (and plasmas for that matter) have?


I'll chime in here. 

OLED pro:
Deep deep black levels, blacker than even plasma. 
Strikingly bright whites, they rival led. 

OLED con:
Yes you have longevity issues, like CRT and plasma they can retain an image and will dim over time, but let's be honest this really isn't as much of an issue as people make it out to be.

It's still an LCD screen over an oled backlight in the case of LG (not sure about samsung, but they've opted to exit the market for now).

They are still prohibitively expensive. With traditional led displays getting better every model year it will be while before they can match the price point decline we're seeing in led. 

Just my 2¢.


----------



## vinnie97

Except OLED has no backlight. However, it does use a back*plane* that has shown some uniformity issues at least in LG's gen 1 OLED TV.


----------



## Ken Ross

And OLED does suffer, to some degree, from ABL.


----------



## vinnie97

Does it bother you on the F8500? It dims very similarly on the first gen OLED apparently.


----------



## mvision7m

rab-byte said:


> I'll chime in here. OLED pro: Deep deep black levels, blacker than even plasma. Strikingly bright whites, they rival led. OLED con: Yes you have longevity issues, like CRT and plasma they can retain an image and will dim over time, but let's be honest this really isn't as much of an issue as people make it out to be. It's still an LCD screen over an oled backlight in the case of LG (not sure about samsung, but they've opted to exit the market for now). They are still prohibitively expensive. With traditional led displays getting better every model year it will be while before they can match the price point decline we're seeing in led. Just my 2¢.


First I've heard of any OLED TV having any kind of backlight as OLED technology, to my understanding and like plasma technology, is self emissive and therefore does not require a backlight. 

As mentioned however, one of two OLED technologies uses a "backpane". 

OLED EXPLAINED: source = Wikipedia 
An OLED (organic light-emitting diode) is a light-emitting diode (LED) in which the emissive electroluminescent layer is a film of organic compound which emits light in response to an electric current. This layer of organic semiconductor is situated between two electrodes; typically, at least one of these electrodes is transparent. OLEDs are used to create digital displays in devices such as television screens, computer monitors, portable systems such as mobile phones, handheld game consoles and PDAs. A major area of research is the development of white OLED devices for use in solid-state lighting applications.[1][2][3]

There are two main families of OLED: those based on small molecules and those employing polymers. Adding mobile ions to an OLED creates a light-emitting electrochemical cell (LEC) which has a slightly different mode of operation. OLED displays can use either passive-matrix (PMOLED) or active-matrix addressing schemes. Active-matrix OLEDs (AMOLED) require a thin-film transistor backplane to switch each individual pixel on or off, but allow for higher resolution and larger display sizes.

An OLED display works without a backlight; thus, it can display deep black levels and can be thinner and lighter than a liquid crystal display (LCD). In low ambient light conditions (such as a dark room), an OLED screen can achieve a higher contrast ratio than an LCD, regardless of whether the LCD uses cold cathode fluorescent lamps or an LED backlight.

Longevity, cost effectiveness, image retention and/or potential burn in as well as ABL are some of the issues I've read about in regard to OLED technology. 

I don't know for certain whether or not either or all of these issues have been improved upon or perhaps even completely resolved and therefore irrelevant. 

In any case, the shootout, as always, is looking to be a fantastic event for all involved and everyone who cares about image quality and technology. 

Thanks again to Robert and to everyone in the Value Electronics crew whom put in all the hard work of organizing, putting on and hosting the event. Great stuff. Looking forward to it.


----------



## Ken Ross

vinnie97 said:


> Does it bother you on the F8500? It dims very similarly on the first gen OLED apparently.


To some degree, Vinnie. As you know I picked the F8500 partly because of my sensitivity to the ABL issue. But if OLED is no worse than what I'm currently seeing, it should be OK. 

My concern over IR & burn-in is certainly greater than my concern for ABL behavior.


----------



## Ken Ross

mvision7m said:


> Thanks again to Robert and to everyone in the Value Electronics crew whom put in all the hard work of organizing, putting on and hosting the event. Great stuff. Looking forward to it.


I'll 2nd that!


----------



## vinnie97

Ken Ross said:


> To some degree, Vinnie. As you know I picked the F8500 part because of my sensitivity to the ABL issue. But if OLED is no worse than what I'm currently seeing, it should be OK.
> 
> My concern over IR & burn-in is certainly greater than my concern for ABL behavior.


It's a rightful concern. Sadly, my ZT seems to be at least as, if not more, susceptible to static images as the OLED (my ZT has a faint discoloration at the bottom portion of the screen, which seems to correlate with either the Netflix nav bar or subtitles since a household member suffers from hearing loss...it's extremely ridiculous because I can see this imperfection from 10 feet out with panning shots of brighter uniform footage/content appearing on-screen in that area). It's the letterbox shenanigans of the OLED that represent its biggest Achilles heel. It does cause one to pause when considering spending beaucoup money on something that can be so easily abused (I'm going to say the same for the ZT now as well, though of course it was more affordable than any OLED on the market, the recent Microcenter sale steal not withstanding). That said, I really prize the off-angle viewing, so I don't have a choice unless I fiddle with a projector. onder:


----------



## davidjschenk

Ken Ross said:


> I'll 2nd that!


"Thirded." I've come to regard Value Electronics' TV shootout as the annual event for learning about and judging the year's offerings in flat panel technology.

Yours,

David


----------



## Robert Zohn

Thanks for all of the kind words! 

mvision7m, hope you can join us this year. Sullivan county is close by.

-Robert


----------



## AbstrateGyk

I want to know that the 'Soap Opera Effect' is not a problem with OLED. This is a problem with LCD using motion smoothing/motion interpolation because LCDs have difficulty w motion resolution. This is never a problem with plasmas. I prefer plasma not only because of its higher contrast due to deeper black levels but also because of its more film like picture quality. Hopefully, OLED is the same or better.


----------



## vinnie97

The first gen motion resolution was limited to a max of 600p due to its lower refresh rate coupled with the employment of the sample-and-hold drawing technique shared by LCD, so you may be bothered by it. At the same time, the OLED pixels have a faster response time than LCD or plasma, so this may explain why several plasma fans (like myself) are easily tolerating it. For movies, I can hardly complain but haven't used it to watch much else. Gen 2 looks to have doubled the refresh rate, so hopefully that means a black-frame insertion or similar technique will be employed to maximize motion resolution. This will introduce flicker, however. Everything is a compromise....even OLED at this juncture, but it's the closest you can get to video nirvana yet. As to the "SOE," it's not visible if you disable the motion interpolation, but there will be more blur as a result.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Burning the midnight candle checking out Vizio's new M2 series display for possible inclusion in our 2014 TV Shootout event.










Late night here in Scarsdale, NY. 

-Robert


----------



## vinnie97

I take it you're going to be a Vizio dealer soon.


----------



## Robert Zohn

Hey Vinny, we are authorized Vizio dealers, but for now we have only used them locally. I have not offered Vizio outside of the Tri-State NY, NJ, CT area yet.

We're testing the new M2 series for consideration in our 2014 TV Shootout event. 

Hope you can make the trip and attend in person and if not please watch the live webcast.

Best,

-Robert


----------



## vinnie97

Thanks for the clarification. Would love to attend but will unfortunately have to live vicariously through the streaming event.


----------



## zibawal

Hello Robert,
We did miss u back from avsforum, hometheaterfirum and finally from junkies. It is so good to find u brother
I would have loved to attend but alas I am on the opposite cost;( 
I would love for you to earn my home theater equipment business. 
What is the best way to reach and request a quote.
Anxiously awaiting shoot out btw when shall LG 65 inch OLED be available?


----------



## NYPete

What dedication Robert. If I knew you were working your butt off, I would have brought over a bottle of wine. It wouldn't have helped your evaluation or made you less tired, but would have made it more enjoyable.

I also didn't know you carried Vizio. There is a lot of buzz around Vizio this year - too bad the Reference Series or P Series UHD aren't out yet, but it would definitely be interesting to see the M series in the shootout. I for one hope that it makes the grade to be included.


----------



## Ken Ross

Robert, we've been friends for a long time and I can't ever recall you looking that tired. Must have been the lighting.


----------



## JimShaw

zibawal said:


> Hello Robert,
> We did miss u back from avsforum, hometheaterfirum and finally from junkies. It is so good to find u brother
> I would have loved to attend but alas I am on the opposite cost;(
> I would love for you to earn my home theater equipment business.
> What is the best way to reach and request a quote.
> Anxiously awaiting shoot out btw when shall LG 65 inch OLED be available?



I have always found it easy to e-mail Robert

[email protected]

Or by Telephone:
Monday - Thursday 9:00 AM to 10:00 PM EST (Retail store closes at 7 PM EST Monday - Thurs)
Fridays - 9:00 AM to 6:00 PM EST
Saturday - Sunday 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM EST (Store open by appointment only on Sundays)

Tel: 800-789-5050 or 914-723-3344


----------



## Robert Zohn

vinnie97 said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Would love to attend but will unfortunately have to live vicariously through the streaming event.


Thanks Vinnie, we'll do a nice shout-out to you! So don't miss our thanks for watching on-line!

-Robert



zibawal said:


> Hello Robert,
> We did miss u back from avsforum, hometheaterfirum and finally from junkies. It is so good to find u brother
> I would have loved to attend but alas I am on the opposite cost;(
> I would love for you to earn my home theater equipment business.
> What is the best way to reach and request a quote.
> Anxiously awaiting shoot out btw when shall LG 65 inch OLED be available?


Thanks for the kind words! I miss my friends on AVS Forum and will be joining again very soon. 

-Robert



NYPete said:


> What dedication Robert. If I knew you were working your butt off, I would have brought over a bottle of wine. It wouldn't have helped your evaluation or made you less tired, but would have made it more enjoyable.
> 
> I also didn't know you carried Vizio. There is a lot of buzz around Vizio this year - too bad the Reference Series or P Series UHD aren't out yet, but it would definitely be interesting to see the M series in the shootout. I for one hope that it makes the grade to be included.


Thanks Pete! Looking forward to your participation at our 2014 TV Shootout! 

-Robert



Ken Ross said:


> Robert, we've been friends for a long time and I can't ever recall you looking that tired. Must have been the lighting.


Ken you are right we are working extremely long hours getting ready for the TV Shootout. We start early am and work till late evening most days. It's defiantly a labor of love as I truly love putting on this event and just like the many tens of thousands of my fellow a/v enthusiasts who attend in person, watch the live webcast and watch our archived Youtube I enjoy learning about the technology and determining how the best premium displays compare to each-other. 

Thanks everyone, you make me feel like all of our work and the very high costs of producing our annual event is worthwhile and appreciated! 

-Robert



JimShaw said:


> I have always found it easy to e-mail Robert
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> Or by Telephone:
> Monday - Thursday 9:00 AM to 10:00 PM EST (Retail store closes at 7 PM EST Monday - Thurs)
> Fridays - 9:00 AM to 6:00 PM EST
> Saturday - Sunday 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM EST (Store open by appointment only on Sundays)
> 
> Tel: 800-789-5050 or 914-723-3344


Thanks Jim!

-Robert


----------



## Ken Ross

Robert Zohn said:


> Thanks for the kind words! I miss my friends on AVS Forum and will be joining again very soon.
> 
> -Robert


That's GREAT news!!!


----------



## zibawal

Ken Ross said:


> That's GREAT news!!!


Most welcome! You are a gem Robert


----------



## davidjschenk

Ken Ross said:


> Robert, we've been friends for a long time and I can't ever recall you looking that tired. Must have been the lighting.


Yeah, that was my first reaction, too. For a guy who doesn't need much sleep, you look like you're really pushing yourself to the max, Robert.

So, should we infer from these most recent models that Vizio is making a concerted effort to push its way into the really high-end market now? The last time I kept track of them (which _was_ a while ago), they had solid TVs, but their real selling point was always price.

Yours,

David


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## JimShaw

There is a very nice article on AVS Forum right now

*Official Lineup for 2014 Value Electronics TV Shootout Announced*

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-fl...-value-electronics-tv-shootout-announced.html


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks everyone for the very kind words, which are all greatly appreciated! 

We have a few seats available for next Saturday and Sunday's TV Shootout and I'd love for more forum members to join us. I have a few special surprises and special announcements in store for the attendees.

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Robert

I am excited that the 16th & 17th is almost here.

I would love to be there but in one more hour we leave to catch a cruise ship for a week. I will get back in time to watch your streaming where I will sit for hours watching, eating, drinking, not taking a bath or shaving and enjoying. It will be glorious.

My question: Will you place the streaming link on this thread for viewing? 



m


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## Robert Zohn

We're using the same Livestream channel this year. It's been our exclusive TV Shootout channel for the past 5+ years.

Once I activate the channel I'll post the url.

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

Just installed our new dedicated enterprise service to deliver guaranteed 70mbps up and 150mbps down speeds to ensure reliable HD streaming of our moderated TV Shootout webcast. I need this Internet speed to deliver HD resolution without compression so our Worldwide online viewers will enjoy the best possible video.








This second Internet service is totally separate from our dedicated broadband service that our company uses for all other connections to the Internet.

-Robert


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## Robert Zohn

Things are heating up here. Today we received LG's new OLED 55EC9300 and it looks stunning! We also received Sony's 85" X950B and it's also stunning.










Tomorrow is another big day here with LG's 84" UB9800 and Wednesday or Thursday we're getting in one more surprise TV.

The TV Shootout wall is beyond words. I'm very excited to host this year's TV Shootout evaluation!

BTW, we still have a few seats available and I'd love to have more forum members join us. Send us an email if you can attend Saturday or Sunday's event.

-Robert


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## NYPete

Robert, is the curved LG 55EC9300 the successor to both the curved EA9800 and flat EA8800 OLEDs? I wish the EA8800 were in the shootout as I was quite taken by the quality of the image on this TV when I was last in your store. Maybe the EC9300 is better if it replaces them. 

Are any of the LG UHD 55EC9800 OLED, the Toshiba 65 LA9400U UHD LCD, the Vizio M652i-B2 HDTV or Sharp LC-70UQ17U HDTV going to be in the shootout? I know you were looking at these for possible inclusion if they were available and/or good enough.


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## zibawal

Any diff between 55 and 65? When is 77 expected?


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## vinnie97

Looks like December as of now: http://www.65ec9700.com/77ec9800.html

I hope price drops to $10k in short order.


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## Robert Zohn

Just posted a few pictures of setting up for our 2014 TV Shootout. Take a look here.

Enjoy,

-Robert


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## JimShaw

Robert Zohn said:


> Just posted a few pictures of setting up for our 2014 TV Shootout. Take a look here.
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> -Robert


Robert

We are on the final leg of the cruise. Leaving Baja Mexico heading to Los Angeles. Tomorrow we dock. By the time I get home, get settled in with a sub sandwich, a few diet Dr. Peppers, turn on the computer, find your link for streaming; I will be in hog heaven. Have been waiting a long time for this year's new technology to be hanging on your walls.

I feel like a young kid excited about Christmas.

Tomorrow, you have a GREAT day! I know I will.


Jim



m


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## Robert Zohn

Thanks Jim! Very fun cruise to take! We'll give you a shout-out in my opening remarks.

Nice HD Guru article on today's TV Shootout.

-Robert


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## lcaillo

This thread will be closed and all discussion for the 2014 event will be in a new thread:
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ectronics-flat-panel-shootout.html#post879897


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