# Differences in AVRs weight/sound wise? - looking for a new one



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

Hi,

After lurking for a while, i see you are all pretty knowledgeable from what i've read.

I'm looking for a new AVR to replace my onkyo 507. Maybe not right at the moment, but soon in the future. I was wondering if you could give me some insight.

I have demo'd a few AVRs, mainly the more popular models and have come across some comments by some AVR guys stating that:

1) Weight plays a big part of what you pay for due to raw power - no weak amp sections.

2) onkyos have generally better bass than a denon or pioneer, but the latter 2 are cleaner.

Which lead me to demo a couple models, the pioneer 1120K (110W/channel) and the denon 890 (105W/channel).

While they did sound very clean and good, I came away thinking that the power section were indeed 'lacking' as the volume was alamost all the way up before they came to a respectable level, in a HT demo room. The denon and pioneer were around the +1.5db level before I was pretty satisfied - problem being the volume only went to +12.

The 507 I have is comparable in volume @ 75W/channel around the 35db mark, which tops out @ 80 on the volume knob. The differences were that the newer pioneer and older denon DID sound cleaner/livelier, while the onkyo beat them both in the bass/volume dept, but the sound wasn't as clean or detailed sounding. I don't know if it was the room, me, or what.

Can anyone attest to what I was told with numbers/data, and is there REALLY a difference in what I was told?

Maybe i'm just going :coocoo:


----------



## XEagleDriver (Apr 15, 2010)

jacare said:


> Hi,
> 
> After lurking for a while, i see you are all pretty knowledgeable from what i've read.
> 
> ...



Jacare,

Welcome from out of the lurking shadows :T

*Concerning comment #1*, I agree to a certain extent that "significant" differences in weight "generally" indicates a more powerful amp section, since the amp section of an AVR is heavy compared to ICs, and knobs and such. However, just a couple lbs (or kgs) difference is not significant and can be easily attributed to different case designs, etc.

*Concerning comment #2*, I disagree since it is way too generalized. Each of these companies have a wide line of products/price points and all are trying to achieve the same goal of accurate playback--this comment sounds like bunk to me. 

*The AVR demo part is difficult (especially comparing to your home AVR).* The sound is most affected by speakers and room's acoustics. The only valid comparison you can take away from the demo is . . . in that demo room, with those demo speakers and the audio programs/settings as the store set them (or didn't), one AVR sounded better than the other. BUt it si a stretch to generalize to how those two AVRs would sound in your room with your speakers. 
- Did the demo use the same speakers you own? Are the demo speakers easier or harder to drive than yours?
- How large was their demo room compared to your room at home? A larger demo room could easily account for the volume differential. 
- Did the demo use a sub (same as yours?) what was the sub set at, etc. ???

*IMHO selecting an AVR is more about *having the necessary functionality (codecs, connections, etc.), your prefered Auto-EQ (Audessey, MCACC, YPAO), a tolerable user interface (have not found an excellent one yet), and adequate power for your current speakers, or better yet - pre-amp outputs to add an external amp if/when needed. 

I also look at forums/reviews, etc. for reliability problems or software bugs "in a specific model", and I do not read this as an across-the-board indictment of a manufacturer. All the big companies have each produced a lemon or two over the years!

Personally, I would not buy an AVR without current codes (DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD), pre-amp outs, and Audessey MultiEQ--but that is my short list, YMMV.

Cheers,
XEagleDriver


----------



## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

First I agree with Xeagle. I currently own the Onkyo 807 135watts and the Onkyo 608 and have demo'd the Pioneer 1120 as well . yes as a general the heavier the better. that being said my 807 @ 135watts per channel will run you out of the room it will play so loud very clean and clear, as will the 608 @ 100 watts per channel in another room. I'm not sure why they didnt seem very loud for you , there are many factors to consider. Source material, speakers being driven , cable , connections , rx set up , ohm settings , etc. I will go on to say my Onkyo 807 driving 7.2 will hurt your ears at -12 . and i would be afraid to turn it up much higher than +5


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
It would appear that a stronger Amplifier Section is in order given your Listening Preferences. I will say unless the AVR's Auditioned used the same Speakers as you use, it is not an accurate comparison. What Speakers are you using? Also, if using a Subwoofer, the Crossover Point can make a large difference.

The 507 is an Entry Level AVR. The main area of compromise with these is the Amplifier Section. I would call your Best Buy as some are absolutely blowing out TX-NR3007's. Some have gotten them for under 700 Dollars.
Also AC4L has recently dropped their prices on 3007's as well.

The TX-NR3007 is an awesome AVR featuring a stout Amplifier Section and tons of Features. I adore mine and with the current prices, an amazing value for what was a 2100 Dollar AVR.

If needing to spend less, I would look for a used TX-SR805. It is an absolute classic and offers more power and critical Features than the current 800 Series.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

Ah yes, i didnt think too much of all the factors that would make a difference. The demo avr's were playing through some wall mounted KEF satellites and an 8" KEF sub- i'm not sure which models.

My speaker setup consists of: polk monitor 60's, monitor 30's surrounds, and a polk csi5 center and an HSU VTF2 MK3 sub.

Unfortunately yes my budget onkyo is an entry model, its all the money i had to spend at the time 

I did go back to frys this morning and check them out again, and doing a little more research, i see that the 1120 can be had for a smoking deal from amazon right now (444 with coupon, free shipping) for not much more than what I paid for my onkyo with a lot of updated features like 1080p upscaling, upgraded sound processing, but some features i'll most likely never use like serius radio and THX.

Lurking at the AVS science forums, I'm seeing everyone saying the 1120 is the best receiver you can get for the money bar none right now, but that power section has me hesitant to pull the trigger as I dont think i'll ever be getting (afford) an external amp. The denon 890 was the floor model, 399 with NO REMOTE.

I would prefer to get another onkyo just for the power section alone, but there are many who are saying passing up the pioneer would be plain stupid at that price point. Believe it or not, I dont really listen to movies/tv that loud, but IF I ever wanted to, it seems with the denon/pioneer you can't 'crank it' like you can my onkyo. And BTW, looking at the 1120 specs, it only pulls 245W from the wall? How is this possible with a 7.1 receiver supposedly doing 110W/channel??:scratch: is that why i'm not able to crank it because of overinflated specs?

I dont have much in way of budget, the cost of the pioneer would be as far as I could go, really. Wish I had more, but that wouldnt be until april/tax return time.

Thoughts?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I am quite impressed with the Pioneer. Excellent Video Processing and there are a great number of people who are stoked about it.

If not reticent of B-Stock, Accessories4less offers some fantastic deals on Marantz and Onkyo. Also, Dakmart sells Denon B-Stock. With these, you really do get a great deal more AVR for the Dollar.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

The power differences between AVR's is, generally speaking, tiny. A small AVR might be 80WPC, and a huge one 145WPC. We aren't even discussing 3db there.

For speakers "on the edge" of that power need, this might make a difference: but generally I'd recommend solving that problem by pairing a proper amplifier and using the AVR as a pre-amp. 

And while weight can sometimes give you an idea of amp power: I would point out that Peavy has a 1600W amp capable of driving down to 2ohm at 7lbs (through a combination of active cooling, being class D, a plastic enclosure, and some careful engineering). There's much more to the equation that simple weight.


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

AVRs rarely have significant differences in maximum output which requires a doubling of power to occur. 

IMO, your best bet is to go for reliability, features, and aesthetics. Onkyo, Yamaha, Pioneer, Denon and Marantz all have excellent AVRs, but before you go shelling out the cash for them. Lets talk about speakers. Unless you already have dual subs, and an amazing speakers setup I think we'd be putting money in the wrong place. 

There's nothing wrong with getting a nice AVR, but don't put all your money into one. I think most would say a 20-80 split in cost is about right for AVRs.


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Get a pre-pro and pair it with an emotiva XPA-5 and XPA-2. You`ll never use a receiver for amplification again


----------



## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

GranteedEV said:


> Get a pre-pro and pair it with an emotiva XPA-5 and XPA-2. You`ll never use a receiver for amplification again


 AVR receivers can make excellent Pre's


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

JerryLove said:


> AVR receivers can make excellent Pre's


But Pres still make better pres


----------



## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

GranteedEV said:


> But Pres still make better pres


 Sometimes... but they usually cost more.


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

JerryLove said:


> Sometimes... but they usually cost more.


Back in the day but these days with the Marantz AV7005 and the Emotiva UMC-1... never a better time to get into dedicated pres


----------



## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

GranteedEV said:


> Back in the day but these days with the Marantz AV7005 and the Emotiva UMC-1... never a better time to get into dedicated pres


 I just took a look at the AV7005. Finally balanced outs on something cheaper than a high-end McIntosh. 

I can't wait until those are on the used market.


----------



## nholmes1 (Oct 7, 2010)

Well I have had a chance to listen to the AV7005 and MM7055 amp combo and its a very nice setup! Haven't got to A/B against anything but so far subjective quality on the B&W CM setup was fantastic and the menu and connection options are well done.


----------



## Jason1976 (Aug 13, 2009)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Emotiva-UPA-5-H...440?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f047d6548

Someone put up a upa 5 on ebay. There is a contest on the forum to enter to win one with a pre.


----------



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

GranteedEV said:


> Get a pre-pro and pair it with an emotiva XPA-5 and XPA-2. You`ll never use a receiver for amplification again


hmm, i would love to, but i dont listen to HT media very loud as it is - on my onkyo 507 i rarely turn it past 35. i almost bit on the pioneer. almost. i think i'll be saving up for a higher end onkyo, but i'll have to wait till tax return time to get it.


----------



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

any of the onkyo avr's have an EQ on them or some way to EQ the speakers per channel? thats one thing that almost made me bite on the pio 1120, the way you could EQ each channel independently - the downfall being you couldnt adjust it, it was done by MCACC and untouchable afterward. i ask because i seem to have a midbass issue, lack of it, and lack of clarity in the midrange with my 507.

any suggestions?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

jacare said:


> any of the onkyo avr's have an EQ on them or some way to EQ the speakers per channel? thats one thing that almost made me bite on the pio 1120, the way you could EQ each channel independently - the downfall being you couldnt adjust it, it was done by MCACC and untouchable afterward. i ask because i seem to have a midbass issue, lack of it, and lack of clarity in the midrange with my 507.
> 
> any suggestions?


The Onkyo's offer Audyssey Room EQ. 2EQ in the case of the 507. In addition, it does offer an Parametric EQ. At least, most Onkyo's I have seen offer a Parametric EQ. 

That being said, the midbass issue could be Speaker and Subwoofer integration and or Speaker Placement. It could also be an issue of AVR Power depending on if running inefficient Speakers with the 507 being an entry level AVR.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> The Onkyo's offer Audyssey Room EQ. 2EQ in the case of the 507. In addition, it does offer an Parametric EQ. At least, most Onkyo's I have seen offer a Parametric EQ.
> 
> That being said, the midbass issue could be Speaker and Subwoofer integration and or Speaker Placement. It could also be an issue of AVR Power depending on if running inefficient Speakers with the 507 being an entry level AVR.
> Cheers,
> JJ



hmm....when i demo'd the avr's, i listened to my own 507 for comparison with the same speakers they had hooked up (KEF satellites/8" sub) and there was quite a difference in the clarity, when i asked how the pio was so clear, the guy pointed out the eq per speaker. unfortunately in my living room, i can only set the speakers one way because of a angled wall that makes the room 'un-square' like. a real pain in the rear for placement, so i'm totally limited where speakers can go.

i do have an older pio elite HT avr (2003 i think) that i did hook up for comparison and it too sounded pretty clear but with no real EQ - i cant hook it to the tv because its an all component hook up, i never had the cables to hook it up so i never used it that way.

so no onkyo's have a per speaker EQ or an actual EQ on the avr besides what audyssey sets it at?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Most Onkyo's do offer a separate Parametric EQ from Audyssey. I am pretty sure the individual EQ the Salesmen was pointing out was MCACC which is similar to Audyssey. I do not think the Pioneer offers an individual Speaker EQ other than MCACC which does provide EQ on each Speaker.

The Pioneer is a much more expensive Model than the Onkyo you have. In truth, I would guess the more powerful Amplifier Section in the Pioneer is the main reason that it sounded clearer. Regardless, Room Acoustics cannot be overestimated in their importance. While Room EQ's do help, they cannot overcome everything.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Most Onkyo's do offer a separate Parametric EQ from Audyssey. I am pretty sure the individual EQ the Salesmen was pointing out was MCACC which is similar to Audyssey. I do not think the Pioneer offers an individual Speaker EQ other than MCACC which does provide EQ on each Speaker.
> 
> The Pioneer is a much more expensive Model than the Onkyo you have. In truth, I would guess the more powerful Amplifier Section in the Pioneer is the main reason that it sounded clearer. Regardless, Room Acoustics cannot be overestimated in their importance. While Room EQ's do help, they cannot overcome everything.
> Cheers,
> JJ


good point, could be why it sounded clearer....are you familiar with denons?

i guess what i'm looking for in the near future (or now depending on the price) is - - - 

1) something that you don't have to turn up most the way to get a good volume, fairly loud without needing an 

external amp

2) sounds clean that doesn't have anything 3-D ready or ipod/serius/XM radio connects or THX - I will never use any 

of these - if any of them, maybe the THX portion but i don't have an iphone, probably never will, and will never 

have satellite radio as i haven't listened to the radio in literally 12 yrs.

3) is under $500 preferred (if i was to buy right now, more expensive possibly in the future)

4) has at least 4 HDMI inputs that upscales to 1080p with HDMI passthrough not really a HAVE TO have thing, could do with or without it.

5) good for music and HT, HT being more important of the 2

6) some kind of EQ other than audyssey?MCACC - like a per speaker crossover or EQ on each speaker, preferred adjustable if possible - any of these will do fine.


anything that fits these parameters out of the denon, onkyo line?

and i also heard that in order to get 'high current' power output from the denon's you have to get at least the 891 model and above? is that true?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

jacare said:


> good point, could be why it sounded clearer....are you familiar with denons?
> 
> i guess what i'm looking for in the near future (or now depending on the price) is - - -
> 
> ...


I am quite familiar with Denon and have Owned several over the years. However, since Denon was Sold, I personally feel that the price has risen while the Amplifier Sections have been on a diet. The drop in the weight of their AVR's has been quite pronounced.

That being said, I am quite fond of Denon's Industrial Design and the fact that Denon uses Audyssey MultEQ on pretty much their entire lineup of AVR's. As far as Power Supplies go, it is true that the more expensive Models offer larger Amplifier Stages. The Efficiency of your Speakers and size of your Room will be major factors in regards to how much Power is needed. 

I prefer Audyssey to all other Room EQ's that I have heard and used. Much of this is due to it being a Full Range EQ whereas Pioneer's MCACC does not operate below Sixty Hertz. That being said, there are others who favor other EQ's. 

If not needing 3D, the choices are larger as are the savings over Retail. Especially if not adverse to B-Stock AVR's. I personally Purchased a B-Stock AVR a couple of Months ago and could not be more pleased. Check out Accessories4less for Marantz and Onkyo and Dakmart for Denon. Both are Authorized Dealers for the Brands that are carried. AC4L offers New and B-Stock. Onkyo's TX-SR707 is available for under 400 Dollars from AC4L and retails for 899 for example.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> I am quite familiar with Denon and have Owned several over the years. However, since Denon was Sold, I personally feel that the price has risen while the Amplifier Sections have been on a diet. The drop in the weight of their AVR's has been quite pronounced.
> 
> That being said, I am quite fond of Denon's Industrial Design and the fact that Denon uses Audyssey MultEQ on pretty much their entire lineup of AVR's. As far as Power Supplies go, it is true that the more expensive Models offer larger Amplifier Stages. The Efficiency of your Speakers and size of your Room will be major factors in regards to how much Power is needed.
> 
> ...



ok, thanks. So do you know off hand what denon avr would match the criteria i listed? I know some models are the exact duplicate of others minus a few features, like the 790/1910....

Do these Accessories4less and Dakmart dealers have sales like amazon does?

I was looking at the denon 1910 for 399 on amazon, and i read on the AVS forums that if i contact Electronics Expo directly they will have discounted price quotes over the phone, for less than other places...


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

jacare said:


> ok, thanks. So do you know off hand what denon avr would match the criteria i listed? I know some models are the exact duplicate of others minus a few features, like the 790/1910....
> 
> Do these Accessories4less and Dakmart dealers have sales like amazon does?
> 
> I was looking at the denon 1910 for 399 on amazon, and i read on the AVS forums that if i contact Electronics Expo directly they will have discounted price quotes over the phone, for less than other places...


Both have Sales from time to time. The 1910 might be perfect. What Speakers are going to be used?
The 707 does have Preamp Outputs which the 1910 lacks. With Denon, the 3310 on up offer Preamp Outputs. I find it important to have the flexibility of being able to add an Amplifier. Especially considering some Speakers do need the added power and low Ohm stability of an Amplifier.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Both have Sales from time to time. The 1910 might be perfect. What Speakers are going to be used?
> The 707 does have Preamp Outputs which the 1910 lacks. With Denon, the 3310 on up offer Preamp Outputs. I find it important to have the flexibility of being able to add an Amplifier. Especially considering some Speakers do need the added power and low Ohm stability of an Amplifier.
> Cheers,
> JJ


i'm using all polk setup

monitor 70's
CSi5 center
RM-7 surrounds
HSU sub


when you say MCACC wont operate below 60 hz what does that mean? i dont really listen to anything loud, i dont believe i'd be needing an external amp - it would be nice to have the inputs but i just dont see myself needing them.

so the 1910 might be the one....i just checked that Dakmark place, they dont seem to have the 790/1910 there....i see the refurbished 1610 at a pretty good price instead....do you know of any other online places to check?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

jacare said:


> i'm using all polk setup
> 
> monitor 70's
> CSi5 center
> ...


That is MCACC does not apply EQ below 60 hz whereas MultEQ works on the Subwoofer all the way to 20 hz.
Given your Speakers and excellent Subwoofer, the 1910 would be just fine.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> That is MCACC does not apply EQ below 60 hz whereas MultEQ works on the Subwoofer all the way to 20 hz.
> Given your Speakers and excellent Subwoofer, the 1910 would be just fine.
> Cheers,
> JJ


hmm...so does the 1910 or comparative onkyo model EQ each speaker with its audyssey calibration? i think thats where some of the clarity difference came from when i demo'd the pioneer 1120 model (along with the amp section) vs my 507

so if i can get that along with a beefier amp section on an onkyo, i'd be set i think....


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

jacare said:


> hmm...so does the 1910 or comparative onkyo model EQ each speaker with its audyssey calibration? i think thats where some of the clarity difference came from when i demo'd the pioneer 1120 model (along with the amp section) vs my 507
> 
> so if i can get that along with a beefier amp section on an onkyo, i'd be set i think....


I do believe that Audyssey's more powerful MultEQ, MultEQ XT, MultEQ XT32, and Pro do provide a far more nuanced experience over the 2EQ that you are currently using.

For around 500 Dollars, you could get a TX-NR807 :http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...135-watts-Channel-7.2-Network-Receiver/1.html 
Retails for 1100 Dollars, offers Internet Radio, MultEQ, THX Post Processing and more. Would be a nice upgrade over your current AVR. 
JJ


----------



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> I do believe that Audyssey's more powerful MultEQ, MultEQ XT, MultEQ XT32, and Pro do provide a far more nuanced experience over the 2EQ that you are currently using.
> 
> For around 500 Dollars, you could get a TX-NR807 :http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...135-watts-Channel-7.2-Network-Receiver/1.html
> Retails for 1100 Dollars, offers Internet Radio, MultEQ, THX Post Processing and more. Would be a nice upgrade over your current AVR.
> JJ


awesome, thanks

but i dont need the ethernet connect or internet radio, and most likely thx post processing.....any 'lesser' onkyo models that have the beefy amp with the multiEQ without all the bells and whistles? i dont even think i will use 7.1, i only have 5 speakers and no more space.

man, i didnt realize trying to find that 'perfect for your budget' avr was such a time consuming process - i've been looking for the last 2 weeks...what about the upscaling on the onkyos? I read that they have Faroujda DCDi Cinema chips while the denons/pioneers use anchorbay and marvell which are getting great reviews. Is there that much of a difference?

and thanks, you have been very helpful!


----------



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

well after looking at the official audyssey page, if i want multEQ (actually i NEED it) i'm limited to certain higher end onkyo models.

TX-NR708
TX-SR707
HT-RC180
TX-NR807
TX-NR808
TX-NR1008

now to look at the denons.....

too many to list. 21 models


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

jacare said:


> awesome, thanks
> 
> but i dont need the ethernet connect or internet radio, and most likely thx post processing.....any 'lesser' onkyo models that have the beefy amp with the multiEQ without all the bells and whistles? i dont even think i will use 7.1, i only have 5 speakers and no more space.
> 
> ...


While there might be Features you do not think are needed, often they turn out to be quite useful. 
THX Post Processing is a feature I use quite often. It could be a Feature that you might like as well.

Internet Radio also means that Firmware Updates are possible via Ethernet. This is a great Feature to have.
If not of interest, Onkyo's TX-SR806 is available from AC4L for around 400 Dollars. 

In regards to Video Processing Solutions, much of this is predicated on how much non HD Video you watch as the major differences are in how well they Upscale non HD Video. The Marvel is excellent. As is Anchor Bay.
However, the Reon Solution used in Onkyo's Flagship Models is unbelievable. While Faroudja might not be as accomplished, it still is quite good.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> While there might be Features you do not think are needed, often they turn out to be quite useful.
> THX Post Processing is a feature I use quite often. It could be a Feature that you might like as well.
> 
> Internet Radio also means that Firmware Updates are possible via Ethernet. This is a great Feature to have.
> ...



I checked it out, but it doesnt have MultEQ - but this one does, its a marantz. I hear they are VERY good.

http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...lby-TrueHD-PLIIz/dts-HD-MA-AV-Receiver/1.html

I'm worried about the 1080p upscaling on this unit though (if it has it), i need to look into it a little more....


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

The TX-SR806 has MultEQ.


----------



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> The TX-SR806 has MultEQ.


ah yes, you are right, i was looking at the 807 for some reason.

taking a look....


----------



## jacare (Oct 28, 2010)

a couple of challengers appear:

onkyo HT RC-180 along with the denon 2130ci.....leaning on the denon, has anyone had experience with these 2 particular models?

the things that are swaying me is the sound quality and the superior video processing/upscaling. I say sound quality because I havent heard an onkyo that has multEQ yet, but have heard the denon and am quite impressed - but again still worried on the amp section. Looking at the back of the denon, it pulls 6amps = 720W when you turn it up - does that mean its power section is legit?


----------



## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I have owned Denon AVR's in the past but not the 2 you mention and IMO I prefer the Onkyo sound as the Denons can sound a little too warm for my liking where as the Onkyo AVR's are brighter sounding but with more detail, I just think also that you get more bang for your bucks with Onkyo which is an excellent brand.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

The Denon would serve you well. I wish that particular Model offered Preamp Outputs which is something the European an ROW offers. 

I know you have stated that having the Facilities to add an Amplifier is off little interest, but I have known people where after procuring new Speakers had lamented not having the option of adding an Amplifier.
Cheers,
JJ


----------

