# Pi 7 Cornerhorns



## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

They sound bad.
This is flat.


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## panduro (Oct 3, 2009)

not a very informative thread!

what is bad sounding on them? rest of system? placement of speakers? pictures of setup?

perhaps we can help you getting your setup much better if you answer the above questions.

i have pi1, his smallest and cheapest speaker, and that doesn't come close to sounding bad, its really a good speaker, especially when u take pricing into consideration!

i doubt that pi speakers topmodel sounds bad... 

best regards

panduro


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## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

They don't image very well and they sound very lo-fi. Coming from a ML CLS system and I would call my old system very accurate and musical (as long as I was dead center). Now everything is wrong. Boomy bass, vague distorted mid range and dead highs.
I have a Yamaha RX-A840 and YPAO makes it sound much better believe it or not! The XO were checked and the build quality of the boxes are second to none...
Playing with the Yammers PEQ now and learning REW.
Keeping my two REL SW out of the system until I make these things sound better.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Have you tried moving the speakers around to get a better soundstage?


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## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

Corner horns!


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

compaddict said:


> Corner horns!


OOPs... have you moved your listening position to where it is where the 2 channels intersect? I know I have seen in the Klipsch Forums that the Cornerhorns can be difficult to get sounding right... Depending on your room.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

I loved my ML Sequels, and I really liked the CLSs that a friend had.... Totally different sound compared to my current setup. :T


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## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

What do you guys think of the plot?


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## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

Trying to figure out how to use the Yamahas PEQ.. 
I think the REW program makes suggested EQ curves?


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Even though they are corner speakers... Have you tried moving them out a bit from the wall... Or are they already out a bit from the wall?


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## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

Have not tried that. I will.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

compaddict said:


> Have not tried that. I will.


:T My theory is that since it is firing to the back it might still like a little more room... Just like your MLs liked space away from the walls.  Hopefully you will get a positive result.

Here is a little info on Klipsch Khorns that might help you out too. :T


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## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

Pulled them away from the corners did not change much, but thank you!
1M from single speaker at midrange axis all drivers.
1M from single speaker at midrange axis BMT individual drivers.
Before and after PEQ from listening position both speakers.
My PEQ made them so bad! Yammers YPAO did so much better.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Did my link help you out at all?

Do you have any acoustic treatments in the room?


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## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

Not checked yet.
Very little treatment.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

compaddict said:


> Not checked yet.
> Very little treatment.


Bass traps (with plastic faces wrapped with material) might clean up your bass without cutting your highs... Not sure about treatments on your mids and highs though as you could lose more mids, and higns while you are trying to get rid of the reflections.


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## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

http://ge.tt/3ko77f02/v/0 
Raw data.


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## jtalden (Mar 12, 2009)

I took a quick look.

Your soundcard cal is wrong. It is badly distorting the responses. You can see it by selecting the soundcard check box on the SPL chart. You can clear the soundcard cal on the measurement panel to get rid of it on current measurements. 

Your mic cal file look okay.

I suggest you clear the SC file in "Preferences/Soundcard" and then take a measurement with a cable from output to input of the soundcard using a loopback cable. The cable measurement should be very flat 20-20k Hz. If it is, there is no real need for a soundcard cal. You can redo a new SC cal if you like.

With the SC cal removed/corrected there is still significant problems at the XO points. It appears that both XOs are about 90° out of phase so there is no support of the SPL to help fill the SPL sag in the XO regions. You could try to reverse the polarity of the MR driver. It will swap the polarity of both XOs. It may, or may not, help the 250 XO as it will still be about 90° out. I would guess it will look about the same. I think the upper XO may look a little better as it now appears to be a little more than 90° out of phase so the switch will make the SPL support in the XO area somewhat better.

To resolve the XO region problems correctly will require significant changes to the XOs. You would need to change the LP filters in each XO to a higher order in order to bring the 2 drivers phase more in line. Passive XO topology design is not a skill of mine though so help would need to come from someone else.

The option is to implement active XO management using a DCX2496 or similar or in JRiver or similar. You would also need 6 P-amp channels. With those tools you would be able to adjust the XO types and delays needed to bring the XO range under control. The ability to adjust the driver delays will allow the all the driver wave fronts to be aligned in time as well as having close phase tracking. It also allows adjustment of the levels of the drivers and provides flexible EQ capability. A DCX can be noisy with horn drivers and large amps however so if you go that way it is best to plan the amp purchases well. 

It is not practical with a passive XO to correcting the timing of the drivers to properly align sound output. A well designed passive would probably get you much better results however. It may be pretty close sonically to an active setup.


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## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

I saw the bad SC cal file yesterday and fixed it, made new measurements and tried to fix with PEQ.
I made it so much worse! Went back to the multi point YPAO, picked a curve (it makes different curves per speaker) and copied it to match both speakers. That makes it listenable at least.
I think you are right about the XO. Leaning toward the MiniDSP stuff for the massive amount of support.
Thanks for the eval!


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## jtalden (Mar 12, 2009)

Wise choice. Going active this way will allow you to optimize the XOs and maximize the performance.

I haven't used the MiniDSP unit, but it may actually be better suited than the DCX for this particular job. It is likely to have a lower noise level. I still would be careful on amp selection. Large amps may tend to have a higher noise floor and with highly sensitive horns that may result is some noise getting through. You sure won't use much power with horns.

You may want confirm is the MiniDSP has and on/off thumps. Those may be an issue if they do.

Good Luck!


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## rkeman (Jan 24, 2014)

This is a 1m response and distortion spectral for the 6Pi taken with the Dayton Omnimic. Notice how smooth the response is above 80 Hz and the low distortion. The range below 80Hz reflects the room effects and can be ignored. This is how your 7Pi should look from about 100Hz up. There is something wrong with the cabinet build, crossover, drivers, placement and/or measurement technique.


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## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

Very interesting.
The cabinet build is perfect as well as the bracing. 
They flat out sound bad and they have some weird phase thing going on as well.
So I think that you are seeing correct measurement besides the SC cal error.
I had an extra set of used 2226h I bought for mockup and they sounded better than the new ones. Not quite as tight but the same family of sound.
I thought I may have over tightened the mid drivers, so I bought a set of new to compare..
Same as the new VS old with the 2226h. They sounded the same but the new sounded slightly tighter.
That leaves the XO or the DE-250 in my mind.
I guess I should really sit down with the XO and take a much closer look.
I am so happy I used Neutriks...


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## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

Turn on/off thump would be a deal breaker for me.


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## jtalden (Mar 12, 2009)

Just to be clear, I don't know which units, if any, have problems. I just vaguely remember someone posting that they had a problem. It may have been unique to that setup?


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## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

http://ge.tt/3ko77f02/v/1?c
Whole set of new files with corrected SC file.
Both speakers tested 1M and flat as well as some B&W DM 330 cheapies for reference.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

compaddict said:


> Turn on/off thump would be a deal breaker for me.


Why not leave them on all the time... Can't be more than a couple of watts.


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## jtalden (Mar 12, 2009)

Both speakers measure similarly.

This time there is some SPL support in the XO ranges. Is this the same polarity of the MR drivers or did you reverse them as I suggested? It should have measured the same unless there was a change. The XOs (particularly the 250 XO) are still a little rough for SPL support, but it is significantly better.

The HF and LF droop is much more that we would have expected. The BW speaker looks much better for HF extension, but also has a lot of LF droop.

I also agree that there is a problem. If you wired the XO that is the first suspect. They are both the same so it would be a consistent mistake. I don't know what it might be that would cause such serious droops at both ends.

Anyway, I agree with the comment that these should measure much better. It's time for some careful troubleshooting.

Your sure the receiver is set to flat (no EQ or XOs active)?


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## compaddict (Sep 15, 2014)

Yea, leaving a MiniDSP on would be a non-issue. I feel better!
I have not made any polarity changes. I think I'm looking for bigger strokes!
The XO were made by the designer and they had two problems and they were both fixed.
My next step is to dbl check them and make sure they are perfect 100%.


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