# N3s build



## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm making these as per Experiments in panel vibration damping using what he calls a [UR


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

This is going to be a great thread. I've also been following your AC thread. 

More pics!


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

tesseract said:


> This is going to be a great thread. I've also been following your AC thread.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

django1 said:


> Thanks, although you must lead a sheltered life...


I do, I'm a _good_ boy. :angel: :SSH:


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## Mike_WI (Feb 26, 2009)

tesseract said:


> This is going to be a great thread. I've also been following your AC thread.
> 
> More pics!


I agree, but what exactly are you building?
Speaker, I know, but can you add some granularity to that?

Mike


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

Mike_TX said:


> I agree, but what exactly are you building?
> Speaker, I know, but can you add some granularity to that?
> 
> Mike


Sorry. GR Research N3 sealed.


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## cburbs (Mar 27, 2007)

They are these but the N3s(sealed) build instead of the floor standing version.

http://gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=151


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

This p


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## InfernoSTi (Oct 31, 2010)

Django,

Those speaker enclosures are looking really good! Nice 45's, by the way. That is always such a simple goal and difficult execution (at least for me!). 



django1 said:


> Can I blow anything up :nervous:?


No worries, you can't more than once per unit, typically.... :fryingpan:

John


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## persisting1 (Feb 8, 2009)

tesseract said:


> This is going to be a great thread. I've also been following your AC thread.
> 
> More pics!


+1 :applause:


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

InfernoSTi said:


> Django,
> 
> Those speaker enclosures are lookin


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

The crossovers are ready to be installed. The boxes have had 4 coats of clear latex finish so tomorrow , hopefully, I'll be listening to these things.


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## InfernoSTi (Oct 31, 2010)

Trust me when I tell you only YOU can see that stuff! They really look sharp. You did an excellent job with it and I hope they sound really good given the effort you have put into them. 

I'm sure the crossovers will be fine. If they don't sound right, they are an easy rework, right? No worries...

John



django1 said:


> They are tough but I always enjoy when I can do small details like that. The initial reason I went with this design was because I liked the look but also to save a little work over veneering. I'm not sure I saved that much work as this was a kind of finicky build. I ended up with the baffles having to be cut out of square by a bit. When all the holes were done I ended up with a baffle I didn't like because of a bad fit. I managed to save it by cutting it a bit and adding a ply to the end. You can see the small piece I added at the bottom of the speaker.


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## Steve_Vai_rules (Jun 22, 2010)

looks good!  :clapper:


Matt


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

One down, one to go. It plays too..


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

Well I am very happy with how these turned out. They are quite a bit of labor and a fairly challenging project. 

I can save you a little time by telling you that the thread will end the same way at AC :biglaugh:


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## InfernoSTi (Oct 31, 2010)

Those look GREAT!!! Congrats on enjoying the sound quality: when you put in that kind of effort, the payoff seems to be even more satisfying and satiating! Glad the electronics worked out first time! 

John


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks. I actually missed them when I went to work today ...


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## Steve_Vai_rules (Jun 22, 2010)

They look awesome!

I love that look of the exposed plys

good job!

Got any other projects on the horizon?


Matt


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks. Honestly they look even better in person .

I ordered a slightly damaged mfw15 driver with an amp from GR Research. I'm going to try it open baffle to begin and then probably it will end up in a sealed box.


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## skeeter99 (Jan 24, 2007)

Those look fantastic! I thought of doing BB for a set of N3's as well. Your execution is top notch!


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

Hey thanks. They sound pretty darned good to so far, though from what I understand the sound will just get better with the break in. And I haven't done the bypass caps. Yet...


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## Steve_Vai_rules (Jun 22, 2010)

django1 said:


> Thanks. Honestly they look even better in person .
> 
> I ordered a slightly damaged mfw15 driver with an amp from GR Research. I'm going to try it open baffle to begin and then probably it will end up in a sealed box.


Oh yeah, forgot about the open baffle mfw15.. whooops. my bad :dizzy:


Matt


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## InfernoSTi (Oct 31, 2010)

OB can be very nice with bass....hope you post your impressions once you get there!


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

I don't have much time on these yet but I see what everyone likes about the tweeter. Very smooth, detailed, "natural" sound. Not fatiguing at all. Brings out qualities in certain instruments that were totally lacking in my ninja'ed xls encore. Also, and something I really appreciate, they are not so "sweet spot" dependent. I tend to be seated of center and they sound very good anywhere in the room.

The middle, bottom end has yet to fill in. From cujobob's reports this should happen with break in.

I don't know if it is because they are non-ported or because my room isn't treated adequately but the annoying quality of the x-ls bass is gone. If I wasn't in the sweet spot the bass was either up or down. Now it is the same everywhere, even with the x-sub...


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## InfernoSTi (Oct 31, 2010)

Smooth highs are a real audio pleasure! I bet the bass will bloom with break in. Hook 'em up to a Hip Hop station and let them play while you are out of the house? 

I have heard that even being a few dBs lower in bass can change how the modes develop. The irony of that is as they bloom, the bass may be less even! Only time will tell. While you are waiting, why don't you make some "Quick and Cheap" room treatments? You know the IKIA bag stuffed with three rolls of R-13 insulation placed in each corner? Very effective (but poor WAF)! 

I hope you continue to enjoy those speakers!!!


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

I actually made one, I think it was "superchunk", bass trap in one corner and two panels all out of rockwool. I have about ten rolls of fiberglass in storage, I should stack them up in my room just for fun...


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## InfernoSTi (Oct 31, 2010)

Amen, Brother! Now you are talking!!!


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

Using my avr to play club music on them with no sub. They sound really thin and bad. My avr sucks for music... I'm glad I have been listening to the N3s with a sub because without the sub I really would have regretted my decision...


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

I slapped together something quick with the mfw15 driver. Listening to the N3s with this in an open baffle "thumbsup:...


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## tthurman (Jan 7, 2010)

I just now saw this thread!

Wow man...nice work!

:clapper:


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## InfernoSTi (Oct 31, 2010)

django1 said:


> I slapped together something quick with the mfw15 driver. Listening to the N3s with this in an open baffle "thumbsup:...


Please note the lifelike detail in the OB bass sound quality...not huge, but highly musical? Am I close????


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

InfernoSTi said:


> Please note the lifelike detail in the OB bass sound quality...not huge, but highly musical? Am I close????


Real close... I'm having trouble pullin


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Try pulling the OB sub out into the room, see what happens. I have read they work better halfway out into the room. It is supposed to be ok next to a side wall, as the OB configuration creates nulls at the sides of the cabinet.


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## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

Yep, that is the problem with OB, trying to find a good spot for them.


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

It is not too easy to move around right now. The amp is just propped up against the wall and the wire is kind of short. The bass sounds pretty good though. It's the N3s sound a little thin . I'm letting them play on some trip hop station to break then in. I had them on some hip hop station but that was :nervous::****:...


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

So what happens if I put it in a sealed box? Output goes up? A lot? Musicality goes down? And what exactly does that mean? 

I get the feeling ob isn't great for movies right?


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

A single OB isn't going to do very well for movies. Sealed should give you more placement options. You can then use your room's boundaries to match the roll off of the sealed enclosure.

I can say that this woofer does VERY well in a properly designed vented box. :biglaugh:


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## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

The OB is kind of just for fun for you to play around with. The sealed will give you the best combination of sound quality and placement flexibility and looks like the best option for your room.

If the N3s don't work out for you, I will buy them from you.


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

dvenardos said:


> I will buy them from you.



In your dreams buddy :assshake:!

You really stand behind your product Don!

BTW, these are mostly great so far...


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## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

What does a guy have if he doesn't have his reputation? :sly:
I have one more door to install and then I can get back to some audio projects. "thumbsup:


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## tthurman (Jan 7, 2010)

> mostly


oke:


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

tthurman said:


> oke:


Thanks for the compliment btw.

I am burning them in with my avr which is an entry level model and really sucks for music. I normally never use it for music.

The tweeter on the N3S is... I've been trying to think of a good word to describe it... smooth and detailed of course but more than that, it's seductive, bewitching, hypnotizing. Piano, wind instruments, voices are all incredible. 

So, I am burning them in as they were a bit lacking in the middle. Every day they are noticeably better. I prefer the bass on the N3s with a subwoofer to the bass on the x-ls either with or without a subwoofer. N3s without a sub are a little light but very tight.


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

Been listening for a while tonite. They have really opened up a lot. I even thought I had the subwoofer on when it wasn't...


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

I have really been enjoying these speakers but perusing audio threads is not good for the status quo, so I did the crossover bypass cap upgrade. 

The first pic shows my crossover before the bypass cap and the second show a pic that AC member Ron graciously took and sent to me. His has the Platinum bypass caps on the high pass crossover and the Gen 2 Sonicaps installed on the low pass crossover.


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## Steve_Vai_rules (Jun 22, 2010)

cool! :rock:


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## InfernoSTi (Oct 31, 2010)

Very nice...I bet you get excellent results from a 0.022uF bypass of such quality. Can't wait to hear back after burn in....

John


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

I am having second thoughts about the caps. I started a thread to get some opinions here.


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## InfernoSTi (Oct 31, 2010)

I have not heard the Platinums, so I can't say how they compare to other caps. However, I can say that in one of my amps, I used a nice polystyrene 0.1uF cap that sounded detailed for the first 10 hours then spent the next 65-100 hours sounding bad, and then it sounded really smooth and sweet (musical and detailed). I have heard that the better the cap, the longer the burn in time. I have heard it is 400 hours for the V-caps, for example. 

I have read many of the debates about bypass vs. not bypassed and I have to say that if I had the money, I would put the right sized V-cap in everything and not bypass. OK, back to reality ($400-600 EACH??? Are you kidding me? My amp cost me $300 in parts). So then what to do? I read a lot about the sonic character of the various caps and have tried several combinations in the signal path of tube amps and can say, for me (YMMV), either a combination of different caps grouped to achieve a balanced sound (such as a cap that is described as detailed and dry as the larger cap and a cap that is described as smooth and soft as the smaller cap) is effective OR all caps that have a signature that you like. I read a bunch of folks descriptions and settled on Auricaps for the signature I thought I would like and have not been disappointed. Now about those Auricaps, I did try them with a 3.3uF and a 0.022uF and the really sounded nothing like I wanted. I added the 0.33uF cap and the overall character changed (improved) noticeably. 

It might be the caps, it might be the bypassing. You might consider another cap with a softer sound (I can't recommend much as I only have limited experience). Perhaps the Obbligato Gold or the Auricaps might be a place to begin looking. There seems to be no end of opinions, as you know. Another place you might go is a slightly larger bypass cap: perhaps a 0.1uF or a 0.22uF. It might be that you are missing the "musicality" part of the upper end (i.e. between 5-9,000kHz) and getting too much of the extension and details form 10K and up. Just a thought to consider. 

Just by way of conversation, if you read Morgan Jones' book on Valve (tube) Amplifiers, on pages 228-9, he discusses bypass cap theory and gives several recommended practices, including 100:1 single bypass (with a second bypass optional but with high quality parts perhaps unnecessary), starred connection at the load point to minimize ground noise, and short leads to minimize inductance.

Good luck and I hope you find that perfect cap that balances detail with musicality: I know you will. 

John


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

John you are so far beyond my league... I just diy to save money.

I'm going to do one of two things. Remove the caps or change my DAC. Maybe both. I'll give it a little more time first...


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## InfernoSTi (Oct 31, 2010)

First off, heavens no...I'm just learning. Second, giving them some more time is a good idea. If you don't like them, trust your ears. The whole DAC issue is a good one, but it seems it is a slippery slope. If you fix your speakers to be more detailed to hear a flaw in your DAC, then when you fix your DAC, you will certainly hear a flaw in your source, right? 

One thing that I do that seems to help in tuning equipment with tweaks is finding that really excellent source material of a really favorite album or two. I find when I tweak my system to sound good for those, it will typically sound good for most everything else. I use Dire Straits "Dire Straits", AC/DC "Back in Black", Van Morrison "It's Too Late To Stop Now (Live)", Dr John "In a Sentimental Mode", and Dave's True Story "Unauthorized" as my five good source recordings. Enough variety to cover almost anything I might listen to regularly later.

Trust your hears and only do what you enjoy!!!

John


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## InfernoSTi (Oct 31, 2010)

P.S. If you are interested in finding caps that will possibly have a sonic profile you like better, this list is as good a place to start as any single list I have found. I would recommend finding a few more evaluations of any particular cap that you like the description of to see if the trajectory is true for several folks in different applications. 

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

It is fun to read, in any event! 

John


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks. That is like the War and Peace of capacitor write ups!


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

InfernoSTi said:


> P.S. If you are interested in finding caps that will possibly have a sonic profile you like better, this list is as good a place to start as any single list I have found. I would recommend finding a few more evaluations of any particular cap that you like the description of to see if the trajectory is true for several folks in different applications.
> 
> http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
> 
> ...


Oh, I forgot about this site! I should link that site to those wannabe "science" hounds over on the latest AVS capacitor thread. :stirthepot: :fryingpan: :raspberry:


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

tesseract said:


> Oh, I forgot about this site! I should link that site to those wannabe "science" hounds over on the latest AVS capacitor thread. :stirthepot: :fryingpan: :raspberry:


It is actually linked in the first post of the thread...


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

django1 said:


> It is actually linked in the first post of the thread...


Been a while since I visited the first page of that trainwreck thread. Now I know where I seen it first... I think.

I got caps on my speaker cables, what the **** do I know, anyway? :fryingpan:


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## django1 (Jan 28, 2009)

I just took the bypass caps out after about 300 hours of burn in and they are not going back in!"thumbsup:

In my set up the Platinums = more detailed but dry and clinical vs lush, seductive and smooth without. YMMV and all that...


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## dvenardos (Sep 27, 2008)

Did you leave the gen 2 in the woofer?
You have me thinking that I may just go with the gen 2 in my Minis. :scratchchin:

Although emac would not be happy with me if I did that. :SSH:

edit: Those platinums are headed my way, just couldn't resist. :yes:


django1 said:


> I just took the bypass caps out after about 300 hours of burn in and they are not going back in!"thumbsup:
> 
> In my set up the Platinums = more detailed but dry and clinical vs lush, seductive and smooth without. YMMV and all that...


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