# The dream is dead - no more towers now what



## tonydp (Sep 10, 2010)

well, i expanded my HT screen this weekend and now it looks like no more towers form me. I'm only left with 7.5" between the wall and the screen. Now looks like i'll need to add bookshelf or 2 more centers. my wallet says bookshelf.

would it be wrong to assume they can all be laid on their side? I need to rework the a/v unit as to fit the sub


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## callas01 (Oct 24, 2010)

laying a bookshelf on its side would mess up the imaging I believe. Probably not a good thing to do.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Provided you use a quality Subwoofer and Speakers capable of playing down to at least 80 hz, I think all will be well.

I would recommend an LCR Speaker. That is it is Designed for placement both horizontal and vertical. 
There are several Brands to choose from. B&W makes an excellent LCR Speaker. Same with Paradigm, but this is just scratching the surface.
Cheers,
JJ


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I've seen Bookshelfs on there sides,not sure what the effect is but i think it would not be that bad.:T


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

callas01 said:


> laying a bookshelf on its side would mess up the imaging I believe. Probably not a good thing to do.





Jungle Jack said:


> I would recommend an LCR Speaker. That is it is Designed for placement both horizontal and vertical.





bambino said:


> I've seen Bookshelfs on there sides,not sure what the effect is but i think it would not be that bad.:T


Well, we all have our personal criteria but, imho, putting a bookshelf on its side will create an irregular and asymmetric radiation pattern and there are no common speakers that perform equally well in both orientations. 

If you are constrained by your oversized, non-AT screen to put all your speakers near the floor, I would recommend using 3way speakers which have the mid and tweeter oriented vertically between a pair of woofers, such as most of the Paradigm center channel speakers. I would also advise you to tilt them up to they are aimed at the listener's ear level and consider an AVR with Audyssey (or similar) room EQ to help with the inevitable bass bump you will get with the speakers so close to the floor.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Meant to mention Room EQ in the Post. D'oh. I agree fully with Kal's recommendations. 
Cheers,
JJ


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Jungle Jack said:


> Meant to mention Room EQ in the Post. D'oh. I agree fully with Kal's recommendations.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I second that as well as the use of Paradigms.:T


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## tonydp (Sep 10, 2010)

Kal Rubinson said:


> If you are constrained by your oversized, non-AT screen


Why do I feel like you're trying to make a dig at my wonderful screen. Anyway, looks like I'm off to find some LCR that may work.


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## class a (Oct 22, 2010)

Placing bookshelves on the floor is not a bad idea. Check out mapleshade audio they actually make floor speaker stands for bookshelf speakers. They are expensive but they claim that placing bookshelves on the floor increases the bottom end and opens up the soundstage. They have some intresting ideas about attaining superior audio.:sn:


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Mapleshade audio has speaker Plinths that can cost twice what a good tower can cost, i wonder if they are worth it.:scratch:


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

tonydp said:


> Why do I feel like you're trying to make a dig at my wonderful screen.


You are very perceptive.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

class a said:


> Placing bookshelves on the floor is not a bad idea.


Better than in the closet.



> They are expensive but they claim that placing bookshelves on the floor increases the bottom end and opens up the soundstage.


It does increase the bass but at the price of emphasizing the vertical room mode. 



> They have some intresting ideas about attaining superior audio.:sn:


Interesting is generous.


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## class a (Oct 22, 2010)

Well it is a novel approach. But considering the response I guess I'll keep my Aerial 5 rear speakers on their stands. However I have picked up some Mapleshade CD's and they are quite good. Norris Turney Big Sweet and Blue vg.:sn:


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## tonydp (Sep 10, 2010)

Kal - why so angry? 

Anyways, thanks for the suggestions but I will be limited to either a set of bic 62 clr-s or whatever best buy carries. Just a matter of geography.


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## vann_d (Apr 7, 2009)

Most speakers have better horizontal dispersion patterns than vertical. This means that you will have reasonably consistent sound when moving side to side but move up and down and you'll hear greater differences.

If you place the typical speaker on its side you will now be limited to a small sweet spot centered between the two and you will likely need to angle the speakers in to achieve a decent frequency response. Moving up and down in height will not make as much difference as moving side to side.

Since most listeners are seated at a relatively similar height but are spread across the room horizontally, keeping the speaker in its vertical configuration makes the most sense.

Some speakers are designed to be on their sides and that would be an acceptable solution.

I personally would go with some constant directivity (horn loaded) speakers that can be aimed at the listening area...away from the walls and floor. I would also use wall and floor treatments. Because of the close proximity to walls and floor that you are dealing with, you are going to experience a lot of reflected sound that will muddy the presentation. Speakers with a more limited dispersion pattern (like some horn loaded designs) will actually benefit you in this situation.

The best option would be an AT (acoustically transparent) screen that you could place speakers behind in a more conventional manner.


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## vann_d (Apr 7, 2009)

JBL makes some bookshelf speakers that are designed to be laid on their side...


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

I'm not sure that I can add anything that will help the OT, but I find the "bookshelf on its side" discussion interesting. When bookshelf speakers came out, they were intended to fit on... guess what... a bookshelf! In order to do this, they had to be oriented horizontally.

I still have a pair of Infinity Qe's I bought back in the '80's. They have EMIT tweeters, which are have a different dispersion pattern on the vertical and horizontal axis. The Qe's were designed so you could rotate the tweeter 90 degrees based on how the speaker was oriented.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

I'd maybe look into a pair of Definitive Technology Mythos or BP speakers. They are all less than 7.5" wide and would likely fit in the corners between the screen and the wall. You'ld get great boundary reinforcement anyways.


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## Tdub (Nov 15, 2010)

Sharp room.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

tonydp said:


> Kal - why so angry?


Angry? I was trying for snide. :heehee:



> Anyways, thanks for the suggestions but I will be limited to either a set of bic 62 clr-s or whatever best buy carries. Just a matter of geography.


GAK! Typical unspecified MTM.

If you cannot spring for a decent 3-way, I'd sooner suggest the Pioneer SP-C21 simply because I trust the designer's competence.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

jackfish said:


> I'd maybe look into a pair of Definitive Technology Mythos or BP speakers. They are all less than 7.5" wide and would likely fit in the corners between the screen and the wall. You'ld get great boundary reinforcement anyways.


That is a double-edged sword.


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## tonydp (Sep 10, 2010)

hey, i said i'll have to rework the a/v unit. So If i stand them upright which would be best then?

pioneer Pioneer SP-BS41-LR  or BIC America DV62si


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

tonydp said:


> hey, i said i'll have to rework the a/v unit. So If i stand them upright which would be best then?
> 
> pioneer Pioneer SP-BS41-LR  or BIC America DV62si


??? I have never heard any BIC speakers but I was impressed with the Pioneer. However, it was in a really good room with high-end electronics and on stands that probably cost twice as much as the speakers.


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## tonydp (Sep 10, 2010)

Tdub said:


> Sharp room.


Thanks, i just need to get the audio stuff out of the way so i can finish it up.


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

Just curious, what speakers do you have now?


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## tonydp (Sep 10, 2010)

I have an older kenwood HTIB that i'm replacing piece by piece as needed. For my HT set up to I had to get a new reciever so i went with the pioneer vsx 520. Needed the HDMI and this was the best alternative for me. Then replaced the center with a Bic DV 62clr-s, and bought the F-12 sub. The left over kenwoods gotta go. They are so bright. never noticed until i started listening to concerts. I have no problem getting 3 new speakers up front but can't spend the cash like before.


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## callas01 (Oct 24, 2010)

could you afford some smaller mini type towers? the Dynaudio X32s would be rather thin and provied excellent sound quality. They have a good level of output and are rather easy to drive, a typical AVR like a Denon or Marantz or Onkyo should do just fine with them, but an amp would be desired down the road, IMO. I am using a Sony for the moment with my X16s and its been fine. However the X32s run $2800/pr.


Totem makes the Arro speaker that is small and thin, but it has good bass and pretty decent highs. I am sure 3 of them would be awesome across your front soundstage. I think they are $1200 per pair.

You could also get some 14-19" speaker stands and put bookshelf speakers on them, that should keep them below the screen. 

Also, Elemental Designs will build custom speakers to meet your needs. As Kal said, you could get them to build you a custom 3-way bookshelf Im sure. Don't know what it would cost.


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## taoggniklat (Mar 30, 2010)

Personally I would shrink my screen size a few inches in order to have some quality speakers instead. But that is just me.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

taoggniklat said:


> Personally I would shrink my screen size a few inches in order to have some quality speakers instead. But that is just me.


That has been implicit in my comments from the get-go.


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## tonydp (Sep 10, 2010)

Guys thanks for all the help. I decided to go with the pioneers sp-fs51 up front with the c21 center and the sp-41 in the back. That's what I was willing to spend. I'm sure they'll sound much better than what I have. I guess as long as I don't know what I'm missing it shouldn't be a problem.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Congratulations! Let's us know how it turns out.


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## callas01 (Oct 24, 2010)

tonydp said:


> Guys thanks for all the help. I decided to go with the pioneers sp-fs51 up front with the c21 center and the sp-41 in the back. That's what I was willing to spend. I'm sure they'll sound much better than what I have. *I guess as long as I don't know what I'm missing it shouldn't be a problem*.


A blessing and a curse!

Ingorance is NOT always bliss!

Enjoy your new setup.


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## harleyhualer-sc02 (May 25, 2008)

If you want some really small, great looking, and great sounding towers. The AV123 ELT525T's can't be beat for the price. They can be found used on the net from about $200-$300. They are only 6.2" wide and have real wood cherry or rosewood veneer. To bad AV123 went under and you can't buy them new anymore.


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