# Need Help with a 7.1 decisions Canton Vento/Onkyo 5509 setup



## Edalgin (Nov 4, 2011)

Hi,

I'm planing to set up 7.1 or maybe even a lesser 5.1 (depending from your advice) home theater with a good stereo quality option.

My dedicated room area for the setup is around _6m long and 4 meters wide_ ( while it does have couple of more meters on the right side and almost fully windowed on the left). I do understand that it is far from a perfect acoustic environment considering that even floors are tiled.

My plan is to go with Canton vento series speakers 890.2 dc (LR), 856.2 or 858.2 (center), 850 R (sub) and InCeiling880 for surround.

Onkyo 5509 reciever

For Power Amps ( this is the main part there I need the help) I'm looking at *Rotel RMB-1575 and 1572* (Class D) or *Emotiva XPA-5 and XPA-2* (Class AB)

I would appreciate any advice on power amps to match my speakers and get the full potential out of them ( specially in stereo mode). My priority is to get best possible sound quality ( with preferably black colored amp).
And have hustle free session in surround mode _(I did read on a forum that someone did have a problem with double emotiva amp setup in surround mode. One of the amp switching OFF probably due to the lack of a signal for prolonged period of time to a particular channel while watching a movie)._

I would also like a recommendation regarding any other better amp in a reasonable price range and possibility to attain it in Europe.

I should also note that my inwall pipe for cabling of surround InCeiling speakers is only 20mm wide and the Cabling distance for the far rear 2 speakers should reach around 15 meters and probably 4 meters less for mid once. So have that in mind while giving a recommendation on 5.1/7.1 setup and cabling.

Please feel free to throw some thoughts, recommendation and point out where am I going wrong with the setup.

Thanking you in advance Ed.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Edalgin said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm planing to set up 7.1 or maybe even a lesser 5.1 (depending from your advice) home theater with a good stereo quality option.
> 
> ...


Hello,
Welcome to HTS. I am quite fond of both of the Amplifier Brands that you are considering. If Stereo Listening is of a very high importance, I do think the XPA-2 would be a fantastic choice. As for other Brands, I might also consider Parasound as well.

The 5509 is an excellent SSP and I really like that choice. As for Cabling, we tend to place a fairly low priority on Cabling compared to Speakers and other AV Components. I wish Monoprice was available in Europe as they offer stellar value. If wanting to spend more on Cabling, Kimber Kable is by far my favorite Premium Cabling Company. Their WBT Connectors are absolutely the finest I have ever known and are thought by many to be the finest in the World.

Canton makes some excellent Speakers. They are not very well known here in the US, but I am quite familiar with them and have a good friend who uses them and they are very well engineered Speakers. If the budget allows it, I do think Thiel makes the finest In Wall Speakers I have ever listened to.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Edalgin (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks for the input.

Is there any difference in 5509 from 5009? Except that 5009 includes an amplifier. Because the price difference is only 70euro here. If they trully are identical regarding components used ( - amp) I might as well get the 5009 + stereo amp saving on an aditional multi-channel amp for the surround.

My other option is to go with 5509 + Onkyo PA-MC5501 and bi-amp the front tower speakers while still using 7.1 for surround. Not sure if that's possible or a good idea, but definitely will make things much easier for me, since I can get everything from the same local store.

What you think ?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Edalgin said:


> Thanks for the input.
> 
> Is there any difference in 5509 from 5009? Except that 5009 includes an amplifier. Because the price difference is only 70euro here. If they trully are identical regarding components used ( - amp) I might as well get the 5009 + stereo amp saving on an aditional multi-channel amp for the surround.
> 
> ...


The 5509 does offer Balanced or XLR Connections and offers less Power Consumption. I personally use an Onkyo TX-NR3008 strictly as an SSP and could not be more pleased. And truth be told, the 5009 has a strong enough Amplifier Stage that it might meet your needs without the added expense of an Amplifier. You could always try the 5009 and decide if it powers your Mains to your satisfaction.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Edalgin (Nov 4, 2011)

A small update... I've auditioned today B&W CM9s in stereo and after I've herd B&W 803Ds with Rotel RB-1090 amp with a stereo processor... I' have to say a HUGE difference ... I was amazed by the sound quality and depth. We tried it with Rotel RB-1575 ( the new class d amp) but it was not as clean and clear... felt like it doesn't have enough power to drive them at mid to high volumes ( some kind of low frequency distortion was herd) ... 

They also tolled me that I might not get such a stereo quality audio out of a HT processor because the one they were using was specially for stereo. I wonder how does that statement affect my choice: Onkyo 5509. I's it good enough for quality stereo? Whats the big difference anyway ?

So now it came down to this...

B&W 803D x2 - 5700euro
B&W HTM4D center - 1500 
B&W ASW-DB1 - 2600
B&W CCM-816 back x2 - 790

Rotel RB-1090 - 1200 (used his showroom test amp)
Rotel RMB-1060 - 600 ( for the center and 2x back surrounds)

Samsung UE-55D800 - 2500

It came all down to 14k EU with the discount including cabling and installation

Whats the drawbacks of a used amp? ( I still get the guarantee)

Any suggestions ?


----------



## Edalgin (Nov 4, 2011)

A small update... I've auditioned today B&W CM9s in stereo and after I've herd B&W 803Ds with Rotel RB-1090 amp with a stereo processor... I' have to say a HUGE difference ... I was amazed by the sound quality and depth. We tried it with Rotel RB-1575 ( the new class d amp) but it was not as clean and clear... felt like it doesn't have enough power to drive them at mid to high volumes ( some kind of low frequency distortion was herd) ... 

They also tolled me that I might not get such a stereo quality audio out of a HT processor because the one they were using was specially for stereo. I wonder how does that statement affect my choice: Onkyo 5509. I's it good enough for quality stereo? Whats the big difference anyway ?

So now it came down to this...

B&W 803D x2 - 5700euro
B&W HTM4D center - 1500 
B&W ASW-DB1 - 2600
B&W CCM-816 back x2 - 790

Rotel RB-1090 - 1200 (used his showroom test amp)
Rotel RMB-1060 - 600 ( for the center and 2x back surrounds)

Samsung UE-55D800 - 2500

It came all down to 14k EU with the discount including cabling and installation

Whats the drawbacks of a used amp? ( I still get the guarantee)

Any suggestions ?


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I really do not subscribe very much to the Surround Processor being vastly deficient in respect to Stereo Performance. Moreover, Onkyo's SSP's have been getting better and better Reviews for their 2 Channel Performance as Versions have changed. Please check out Kal Rubinson's excellent Music in the Round Review in Stereophile Magazine which is available for free on their Website.

The Onkyo offers Pure Direct where all extraneous circuitry is turned off when this Mode in engaged. This includes the Display on the Front Panel and if memory serves even HDMI Video Output. In addition, Audyssey MultEQ XT32/SubEQ HT is a revelation. Truly made a huge impact in my HT.

I really cannot fault you with your choice of Speakers upgrading to the 800 Series. These are truly some of the finest Speakers available on the market and actually represent an excellent value as they can be compared to Speakers costing multiples their MSRP. I also am a big believer in Class A/AB Amplifiers when it comes to driving Flagship Speakers. Especially high quality ones like the Rotel do quite well when the Impedance drops as it does on the 800 Series. I really think you are going to love your HT and find it hard to leave your House!
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Edalgin said:


> I'm planing to set up 7.1 or maybe even a lesser 5.1 (depending from your advice) home theater with a good stereo quality option.


Between two surround speakers and four less expensive alternatives, I would choose the 7.1 

I also don't recommend spending too much on surrounds, given how, even in multichannel music, little action they tend to see. Focus the budget on the fronts and consider surrounds tertiary.



> My dedicated room area for the setup is around _6m long and 4 meters wide_ ( while it does have couple of more meters on the right side and almost fully windowed on the left). I do understand that it is far from a perfect acoustic environment considering that even floors are tiled.


Live rooms are a bit difficult for conventional speakers especially if the floor/ceiling are overly reflective (as those tend to be the most offensive reflections. I'm still making my way through this thread so I might be "behind" on current events but I definitely recommend speakers with narrow vertical directivity in such rooms. The nice thing about a more live room is that if you can reduce amplitude of earlier reflections via the speaker's directivity, you can actually have a very engaging and spacious soundstage. An artificial effect created by your room, yes, but a positive one.



> I would also like a recommendation regarding any other better amp in a reasonable price range and possibility to attain it in Europe.


I really do like the emotiva option, but understandably it isn't black as you stated earlier. 

If I were in Europe, I would put some strong, STRONG consideration into a DIY Hypex NC400 amplifier kit. Some assembly required but otherwise pretty straightforward. I'm pretty convinced those are some of the finest amplifiers in the world.

Honestly though, for most well designed speakers I wouldn't be overly concerned with amplifiers beyond a decent one capable of 250w into 4 ohms. the room and its interaction with the speaker, is on magnitudes more important assuming the amp you're using is half decent.



> I should also note that my inwall pipe for cabling of surround InCeiling speakers is only 20mm wide and the Cabling distance for the far rear 2 speakers should reach around 15 meters and probably 4 meters less for mid once. So have that in mind while giving a recommendation on 5.1/7.1 setup and cabling.


This is a bit of an issue although arguably a negligible one. 15m is a pretty long distance and so I would lean towards a heavier guage cable than might fit. There might be some minor resistance loss at higher frequencies, but for a surround application I do not see it as an object of concern. Make sure to get inexpensive cable, whatever it is you get. For myself I prefer a rule of something like no more than $.50/ft 



> and bi-amp the front tower speakers while still using 7.1 for surround. Not sure if that's possible or a good idea, but definitely will make things much easier for me,


 Bi-Amping in its most effective form, implies that crossover circuitry is placed behind the amplification stage and thus takes away the need for passive attenuation of the signal. What you describe appears to be passive bi-amping, which is sending the same signal to different attenuators from different amps. I honestly consider it a waste of time, power, and money.



> A small update... I've auditioned today B&W CM9s in stereo and after I've herd B&W 803Ds with Rotel RB-1090 amp with a stereo processor... I' have to say a HUGE difference ... I was amazed by the sound quality and depth. We tried it with Rotel RB-1575 ( the new class d amp) but it was not as clean and clear... felt like it doesn't have enough power to drive them at mid to high volumes ( some kind of low frequency distortion was herd) ...


Many B&W speakers are known to be very taxing amplifier loads. Remember that one speaker at a given SPL might drive some amps to clip, and another speaker at those same SPLs, might have the same amplifier coasting and relaxed. The 803ds have dips to 3 ohms combined with very capacitive phase angles which is not the norm. Personally I feel Rotel gear to be a bit on the overpriced/underperforming side of things. Not that it's poor gear or anything. 



> They also tolled me that I might not get such a stereo quality audio out of a HT processor because the one they were using was specially for stereo. I wonder how does that statement affect my choice: Onkyo 5509. I's it good enough for quality stereo? Whats the big difference anyway ?


A good HT processor, like a Marantz AV7005 or Denon AVP is more than quality for stereo. I'm not familiar with onkyo gear so I couldn't comment on that specifici unit though.



> B&W 803D x2 - 5700euro
> B&W HTM4D center - 1500
> B&W ASW-DB1 - 2600
> B&W CCM-816 back x2 - 790


I hope you didn't pull the trigger just yet. That's a lot of money to spend on a whim and I'm spend some serious time considering many options and hopefully auditioning them in YOUR room. For myself I would not consider those speakers as I feel they have some serious design flaws. I recommend auditioning some KEF R900s for what it's worth.

I also feel that that particular subwoofer is NOT a good value OR a strong performer. I would steer clear. You can do MUCH better for your money. I know SVS has some european distributors for example.

Those surrounds appear to be ceiling mounted, and while I understand that everyone has their limitations, I will say that I prefer aimable bookshelf surrounds. Here is a pic of my ceiling mounted bookshelfs - this is how I feel surrounds should be aimed towards/above the listening position rather than directly down.


----------



## Theresa (Aug 23, 2010)

I just got a Onkyo 5508 to replace the UMC-1. I have three Emotiva power amps. I think the XPA-5 would be enough with your room but more is almost always better with amp power. I think you got a great processor.


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

GranteedEV said:


> Between two surround speakers and four less expensive alternatives, I would choose the 7.1
> 
> I also don't recommend spending too much on surrounds, given how, even in multichannel music, little action they tend to see. Focus the budget on the fronts and consider surrounds tertiary.
> 
> ...


Hello,
I am in total agreement about the Subwoofer. I was blinded by the 803's and did not look that closely at the Subwoofer choice. Also, I too spoke of how current hungry the 800 Series are. For the 803's, I would seriously consider the Emotiva XPA-1 Monoblocks for them if you can get past the color.

With Rotel and B&W sharing Distribution, it is literally impossible to find a Store that does not sell both. Accordingly, B&W's are almost universally demonstrated with Rotel Amplification. Unfortunately, Rotel does not seem to make a super powerful Amplifier anymore like the old RB-1090 which would work nicely with the 803's. Given the scope of this HT, perhaps looking for a used Plinius, Krell (KSA or FPB Series), aforementioned Rotel RB-1090 would be worth considering. Also, Parasound is available in Europe and the Halo A21 would do nicely and the JC-1 Monoblocks would be even better.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Edalgin (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks for your input and help.

Anyone know if emotiva amps can are compatible with onkyo 5509 ? looking into xpa-1 x2 and xpa-5... or Rotel RMB-1575 ( I herd they might have some issues regarding the gain output of the onkyo )

Regarding KEF R900 ... I'm not sure if I can get them in any local store in here. 

Once I get the amps... Ill have to make a choice between 803 diamonds or Canton Vento 890.2 maybe even something from their reference line.

Design wise B&W Diamonds are definitely in other league... not sure If I even get the chance to find KEF R900s over here I'm going to be pleased with their looks or the price provided that their not even in reference line ( will not be suprized if they are actually made in china )


----------



## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Edalgin said:


> Thanks for your input and help.
> 
> Anyone know if emotiva amps can are compatible with onkyo 5509 ? looking into xpa-1 x2 and xpa-5... or Rotel RMB-1575 ( I herd they might have some issues regarding the gain output of the onkyo )
> 
> ...


Hello,
Emotiva's really are quite easy for an SSP to drive. Truth be told, many AVR Owners use Emotivas for the Front Stage or at least the Mains. I have read countless Reviews of the Onkyo SSP's from the past 5 Years and I really have not read about many if any issues in terms of Preamp Voltage. XPA-1's and 803D's would make for an excellent match. Cantons are quite nice too. However, their presence in the States is fairly small.
Cheers,
JJ


----------



## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Yes Emotiva is compatible with Onkyo 5509. I use the XPA-5/XPA-3/UPA-1 with Onkyo 5508. Sounds great.


----------

