# Need sub-woofer in the US$1000-$2000 range. Is the Genelec 7060 the best sub in the world at this price?



## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Dear Folks,

I've searched the forum for sub-recommendations and am now suffering from information overload and can't seem to make a list to even narrow down my choices and now I need your help to finalize a sub-woofer for a 5.1ch Home-theater with Active speakers.

Center & Surrounds: Genelec G Three (consumer grade version of 8030)
Left & Right: Genelec G Four (consumer grade version of 8040) 
The advantage with this setup is the G 4 paired with a good sub gets me a very good 2.1ch setup for music that performs at the G4 level and for movies the G 4 can easily match the level of the G 3 in the center/surrounds and I will essentially get a 5.1ch setup that performs at the G 3 level for movies.

My requirement is a sub that integrates well with the above setup. The sub has to perform (fidelity not SPL) better than the Genelec 7060 (at the $2100 price range) and at least as good as the Genelec 7050 ($1100 price range).


In short - my question is as follows:
Is the Genelec 7060 the best sub in the world (for fidelity and low distortion) at its $2100 price point?


The main performance criteria being very low distortion, high fidelity/accuracy/transparency, tight, clean bass. SPL is not the most important factor.

The dealer claims that the Genelec 7060 is worth every penny of its $2200 price because of the following: Genelec's proprietary Laminar Spiral Enclosure (LSE) [does anyone know how this makes the sub better than everything else], "0" db baffle resonance, driver giving all the SPL and not the cabinets rattling, construction rock solid and no coloration in the Low Frequency and also power efficient consumes only 120W for an [email protected] of 108dB and is well integrated with the Genelec speakers.


Other details - in case you have time to read further:
1. Budget: $1000 to $2000 (base USD prices before taxes, shipping etc).Since I can't buy used, I will also have to add about 70% on top of the base price for duty, shipping ,VAT etc to arrive at my final cost.

2. Size requirements/limits: I think an 8" or 10" sub should be sufficient - should have freq response down to 21 or 22 hz. with the best fidelity/accuracy/transparency, tight clean distortion free bass is my most important criterion - not loudness/SPL.

3. Room dimensions: Living/Dining hall: 25' x 18' open to a Foyer: 9' x 12' with Ceiling height 10'. Flooring is polished marble, walls are brick with cement plaster. (Refer: 4BHK layout.jpg )

4. Primary uses: Usage will be about 70% movies - 30% music.
All videos (avi, mp4, mpg, mkv, divx etc) and music (mp3) files are on hard-disk and will be played via VLC player from a home-theater PC, all the speakers will be directly connected to the 5.1ch sound card on the PC using XLR (any body know if a sound card has XLR out available?) or through RCA-XLR conversion jack or plain RCA jack.

5. Listening habits: I do not plan on playing it with blow me off my seats loudness (except may be when the wife is away) but just a set that is accurate/ transparent, without rattling and unwanted vibrations etc. I'm not looking for earth shattering bass - just accurate, clean distortion free bass - that is as good as or better than Genelec 7060.

6. Appearance requirements: It has to be sufficiently compact and good looking to complement the Genelecs G 4/ G 3 but needn't be super-compact or sleek - so as to compromise price or performance...It needs to be made in Europe or North America

7. Location and Time-frame: I'm an American expat based in Bangalore, India and that means fewer options to consider and there is no "used" market to speak of and imported things in general cost nearly double here compared to the base US prices. Can't really buy internet direct either - but I do want the best (most accurate, transparent) sub out there in my price range... therefore I may be willing to wait and buy the right thing by whatever means I can.

8. DIY is not an option for this setup. I may do it as a second or complementary sub - if needed - but the criteria will remain the same - tight bass, low distortion, no rattling, power efficient etc comparable to Genelec... I don't think I can achieve that in a million years...

9. WAF: "Any crazy thing which is...Not too big, Not too loud. Not too ugly."

10. I'm looking to find the "Best" sub there is not just "very good or excellent" in the $700 - $2000 price bracket.
I assume there are very few choices (in my budget)... that are equal or better performance/accuracy than the Genelec 7060 in the above categories: tight bass, low distortion, low waste due to heat or noise, accuracy/transparency,etc...(loudness and bomb like air/earth moving ability is not a criterion for me) - the brand has to have the same studio cred and audiophile/pro/musician cred and halo effect as the Genelecs and look tastefully (no flashy/glossy stuff) done too...

would the Genelec 7060 still be the sub to get at the $2000 price point?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Hello and welcome to the HTS!
Although the Genelec apears to be a decent sub looking at the specifications Its cutoff is 19Hz. And its max SPL is only 108db. Its a plastic enclosure so not as ridged as wood as well it only weighs 57lbs. For that kind of money you would get a much better sub like this SVS PB13Ultra.

The PB13u can go lower than 16Hz, has a 1000watt DSP amp, weighs 150lbs and costs $1999.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

From everything I've read the Genelec subwoofers have fantastic sound quality, but they're certainly not a value-based product (where price to performance ratio is considered good). I wouldn't be concerned by their non-wood enclosure though; I very seriously doubt they engineered something that's a compromise. If anything, it would be better than MDF.




intgenx said:


> 2. Size requirements/limits: I think an 8" or 10" sub should be sufficient - should have freq response down to 21 or 22 hz. with the best fidelity/accuracy/transparency, tight clean distortion free bass is my most important criterion - not loudness/SPL.


This, unfortunately, is not terribly realistic; few 12" subwoofers can hit 20Hz with legitimate authority, let alone a 10". Forget an 8" subwoofer.

The SVS PB13 Ultra that tonyvbd suggested is certainly worth considering, but small it's not. That may complicate the WAF issue. However, that leaves you with a bit of a quandary... assuming you want to use just one subwoofer your room size dictates a ported unit, which will help ensure sufficient output to fill that large a space. If you can go duals then something like the SB13 Ultra would be better, but that won't come close to your budget.

Based upon the same criteria -- a large ported sub and a smaller sealed one -- another potential option is the Rythmik FV15HP and the F15HP. Both are renowned for their precision, and would more than likely satisfy all your needs.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

@tonvdb - thanks for the suggestion... although I never thought "heft" - not just SPL but literally in weight of unit mattered...

@theJman - I agree Genelec may be charging a premium for their patented Laminar Spiral Enclosure (they may have a limited window to cash-in before other sub-makers can copy)

SVS, Rythmik and HSU - anyone else? How about KK Dxd808? (Ken Kreisel)
any other such little known but hi-quality sub-makers?

fidelity is the only criteria for me - not oomph or heft or loudness - plus additional features like power on signal and bass management would be nice..


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## pddufrene (Mar 14, 2013)

intgenx said:


> @tonvdb - thanks for the suggestion... although I never thought "heft" - not just SPL but literally in weight of unit mattered...
> 
> @theJman - I agree Genelec may be charging a premium for their patented Laminar Spiral Enclosure (they may have a limited window to cash-in before other sub-makers can copy)
> 
> ...


I agree with tony and jman SVS has what your looking for, there subs are known for there flat fq, clean sound, customer service, and there subs are considered by many to be bulletproof. Check them out they might be what your looking for. Another sub manufacturer u could check into is PSA (power sound audio).


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Have any of you heard or heard of the 
http://www.kreiselsound.com/subDXD808.php
He is the K of the M&K Sound.
Any thoughts on this?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

intgenx said:


> Have any of you heard or heard of the
> http://www.kreiselsound.com/subDXD808.php
> He is the K of the M&K Sound.
> Any thoughts on this?


Yea, I have a few thoughts on the 808...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I think Jim said enough about the 808 so I wont say more. The thing you need to know is that a sub needs size to preform correctly particularly in a large open space such as you have. 
If you want to feel any low end (below 30Hz) your going to need to go big. A small sub simply wont move enough air to be effective. I own the SVS PB13U and can attest to its ability to not only preform excellent with music but also sound like the movie studio audio engineers wanted it to.
I know its larger than you want but it can be placed out of site or can be used as an end table.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Thanks folks - I'm wondering if someone did a shoot-out of subs with Genelec 7060 as one of the contenders and how it fared. I'm considering KK DXD808 vs Genelec 7060.
Its important that the brand have a storied past or a legend behind it. Apart from the SQ, Hi-Fi etc I'd want the bragging rights of finding that unique brand (for eg BMW) that is not exactly for the common man but for only those in the know with a truly refined taste. Genelec seems to have it and KK to an extent (assuming KKs are made in USA)

SVS, HSU etc seem too common...and if SVS has a dealership in India - its gotta be as common as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Trust me, SVS is truly one of the top players in sub design. They are not "common" they simply have a distributor in India and yes even up here in Canada that does not make them run of the mill by any means. As a matter of fact you wont find many boutique shops that even know anything about them simply because they dont sell to dealers only internet direct. That keeps the quality high and the cost down for the end user.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

intgenx said:


> Thanks folks - I'm wondering if someone did a shoot-out of subs with Genelec 7060 as one of the contenders and how it fared. I'm considering KK DXD808 vs Genelec 7060.
> Its important that the brand have a storied past or a legend behind it. Apart from the SQ, Hi-Fi etc I'd want the bragging rights of finding that unique brand (for eg BMW) that is not exactly for the common man but for only those in the know with a truly refined taste. Genelec seems to have it and KK to an extent (assuming KKs are made in USA)
> 
> SVS, HSU etc seem too common...and if SVS has a dealership in India - its gotta be as common as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic


Really…


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

intgenx said:


> Thanks folks - I'm wondering if someone did a shoot-out of subs with Genelec 7060 as one of the contenders and how it fared. I'm considering KK DXD808 vs Genelec 7060.
> 
> Its important that the brand have a storied past or a legend behind it. Apart from the SQ, Hi-Fi etc I'd want the bragging rights of finding that unique brand (for eg BMW) that is not exactly for the common man but for only those in the know with a truly refined taste. Genelec seems to have it and KK to an extent (assuming KKs are made in USA)
> 
> SVS, HSU etc seem too common...and if SVS has a dealership in India - its gotta be as common as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic


SVS makes good subwoofers, so your worries are unfounded. Having a dealer is often a prerequisite to establishing a sales channel in some countries. ID in the USA and in other places isn't the same. Don't forget Rythmik either - they're famous for their precision and transient response.

Regarding the 808... you're going to need a co-located pair in order to handle a room that size. A single won't do it. I wasn't sure if you accounted for that in your assessment.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

@JBrax - not sure what u were trying to say...

ok will give rythmik and svs a shot...any idea where they are made?
as it is the 808 seemed like overkill due to excessive untreated room reflectivity and WAF would scream too loud
and its already at the max of my budget...

I started with a budget of $2.5k for 5.1ch w/ receivers

now I'm at $6.5k for just 5.1ch and dropped amps/receivers and will instead get a good sound card for my HTPC...


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The sub and speakers should be a fair bit of your budget. As without good speakers it does not matter what equipment you have it wont produce its full potential.
That said There are far better options for speakers than what your getting for the money. But if something that is built in wall is what you need those options are limited.

What are you looking at getting for the receiver/processor?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

intgenx said:


> ok will give rythmik and svs a shot...any idea where they are made?


China, like most things it seems... :rolleyesno:


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

@tonyvdb - the Genelec 8040 costs about $2200 a pair and 8030 about the same for 3...
which other active speakers offers the same or better fidelity at a lower price and is a reputed brand and not made in china

I've already considered Focal CMS65, 50 and ADAM A7X and they were runner-ups in the shootout. Mackies, KRK, Behringer etc were shortlisted but not tried.

i'm going active speakers because - i can eliminate the box amps (and save about $600) and not have to worry about the amp units claimed vs actual ratings, quality, fidelity, distortion and noise... in any case i have to run speaker wires to the speakers so i'll run some power wires too

and i'm probably gonna eliminate the processor too and just build my own HTPC with a good sound card...(any good resources for this?)

@Jman..
are you sure...if svs and rythmik are not made in America - then they are out of the list for me...

do u know where the KK DXD 808s are made?

how about these:
http://small.linncdn.com/product-catalogue/documents/Linn_Klimax_345_Product_Information.pdf
http://www.vandersteen.com/2w_specifications.pdf
have u heard or heard of the above?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

intgenx said:


> @Jman..
> are you sure...if svs and rythmik are not made in America - then they are out of the list for me...
> 
> do u know where the KK DXD 808s are made?


China. Very few companies are domestic sourced for all of their components. PowerSound Audio is the only one I'm aware of (assuming you're OK with the amp coming from Canada).


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I would bet to say that the Genelec's are made in China or some other country. The may very well be assembled in the USA but the parts would very likely be made off shore as are most things as stated above.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

@tonyvdb - the Genelecs - its probable that most of the electronics come from Taiwan or China but as a whole on the back of the speakers it says "made in finland"

@theJman - yes some parts especially some electronics from the Far-east is fine - as long as it is mostly made in North America or Europe... 
and so PowerSound gets on the list right away.. which models should I consider? 

The ADAM Sub8 and Sub10 are now on my list. Where are Velodyne, Quad, Vandersteen, Linn subs made?

anybody else making good subs in North America or Europe?


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

intgenx said:


> as it is the 808 seemed like overkill due to excessive untreated room reflectivity and WAF would scream too loud
> and its already at the max of my budget...


Room reflections are only a concern above the Schroeder Frequency (think of a pool ball bouncing around the table). Subwoofers handle the frequencies below Schroeder, and behave quite differently (think a bubble, or balloon).



intgenx said:


> and i'm probably gonna eliminate the processor too and just build my own HTPC with a good sound card...(any good resources for this?)
> 
> how about these:
> http://small.linncdn.com/product-catalogue/documents/Linn_Klimax_345_Product_Information.pdf
> ...


Here is a great resource: *Computers | HTPC | Media Servers *

I've never heard Linn subs, but I'm going to guess it will take multiples for that size of sub. Same with the Vandersteen, which I have heard, great sub but you will need at least two.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

@tesseract - You've heard Vandersteen? If so how does it compare (based on memory of course) to other subs good enough for music/musicians - like the DXD-808 and any other subs you thought were clean/true/hifi (not just loud)

most recommendations seem to be too worried about filling that entire space (living/dining/foyer)...but I'm looking to contain the sound within the home-theater area which will be 2/3 of the Living/Dining hall - about 17' x 16'... so as to keep WAF and NAF at bay.

I'm concerned even the DXD808 might be overkill - I do not know what I would do with more head room etc...duo/quad etc

I want the sound to be high-quality within the listening area but I do not need to fill the entire space up with sound.. therefore the bigger subs are going to be more a head-ache literally and figuratively for me and therefore the SPL could just add to my MPL (marriage pressure level) and could possibly even blow-up it up altogether.


therefore I'm looking for the smallest sub with the cleanest, truest sound....this is what I'm looking for recommendations on... something along the lines of B&W PV1D - but this one doesn't work for me as it doesn't have SLR inputs and looks like its made of cheap plastic...


I've been seriously thinking about a DIY - but I'd prefer to do that as a second sub - I am somewhat handy (just the basics around the house) but not a precise craftsman - but I can find some good carpenter or GRP, fiber glass workers, some electronics assistant etc (labor costs have exploded in India but are still somewhat cheap when compared to NA/EU)... 
how hard would it be to be "inspired by" Genelec's LSE design or B&W Nautilus or come up with an alternate? any thoughts?
If someone knowledgeable in audio/electronics engineering or just plain passionate about this field - and interested in making a business out of this... I'm game for a partnership... in atleast building a proto-type and see if it'll sell.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

intgenx said:


> most recommendations seem to be too worried about filling that entire space (living/dining/foyer)...but I'm looking to contain the sound within the home-theater area which will be 2/3 of the Living/Dining hall - about 17' x 16'... so as to keep WAF and NAF at bay.
> 
> I'm concerned even the DXD808 might be overkill - I do not know what I would do with more head room etc...duo/quad


I dont think you understand, Unless you are going to build walls and doors to enclose that area you want as the theater space you must consider the entire space that includes any open space adjoining that room. You wont get any meaningful lows below 30Hz unless you get something large. You will be throwing away good money at a small sub that you will drive well past its limits and still wont have decent sound.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Folks, the debate is great.. everyone seems to be recommending a higher powered sub... or daisy chaining - but very few concrete suggestions have come-up on higher-fidelity...

I am looking for performance and value...at the same time I'm not a fan boy or groupie of some brand ... I simply do not want a product made in China...to some this may have sounded prejudiced if read in snippets...

but in short... at the price band I'm willing to spend - I'd simply not want to see a "made in china" tag - which immediately implies "cost savings, mass produced and that too in a country which is a competitor for resources and power and was at one point not long ago in our history - the enemy" ... 

so... I'd really love it if people here recommend a high fidelity sub apart from KK or Genelec...

keep in mind I started at $2500 for the whole 5.1ch + receiver and was looking at B&W 600 series... but after hearing the 800Diamonds... the 600 was a non-event... the Genelec 8260 was what brought me to the brand...the Genelec 8260 performance was quite comparable to the 800Diamonds at 1/3 the price...
add in "the halo effect and reputation" and I'm now seriously considering their lower line of products...

and now am at $6500 for just the 5.1 speakers and this is before shipping, taxes and customs duties - my final cost will be around $10,000.

now taking the above into account - could you recommend speakers/subwoofers that have true fidelity... it doesn't matter if they are active or passive etc... basically if a musician were to play whatever the instrument and record it and play it back on the speaker - it should be indistinguishable...in a blind test... or by actual sensitive measurements both in frequency and time...

that is what I'm looking for...fidelity - the "brand/history" etc is an offshoot of its consistent performance and the experts and market recognizing the same over time...

my new signature will be...
"give me fidelity or give me death".


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

intgenx said:


> @tesseract - You've heard Vandersteen? If so how does it compare (based on memory of course) to other subs good enough for music/musicians - like the DXD-808 and any other subs you thought were clean/true/hifi (not just loud)


I heard the 2Wq a long time ago. I do recall that it seemed what most people might mistake as "underwhemling". It is not a bombast machine, accuracy is it's goal. Really, I think two of these will do just what you want. Start with one if you like, then add another if you feel the need.

Also, I would highly recommend the Power Sound Audio XV30f. It has pedigree, is built in America/Canada and will deliver a very high quality foundation for your main speakers. Sure it is big and will fill the bill for home theater needs, but it also does small scale articulation... it is a musical sub. There are smaller PSA subs to consider if the XV30f is too big. 



> most recommendations seem to be too worried about filling that entire space (living/dining/foyer)...but I'm looking to contain the sound within the home-theater area which will be 2/3 of the Living/Dining hall - about 17' x 16'... so as to keep WAF and NAF at bay.
> 
> I want the sound to be high-quality within the listening area but I do not need to fill the entire space up with sound.. therefore the bigger subs are going to be more a head-ache literally and figuratively for me and therefore the SPL could just add to my MPL (marriage pressure level) and could possibly even blow-up it up altogether.


Tony is right, there is NO WAY you can contain bass frequencies to one area. Read the link about Schroeder in my previous post. A sub must pressurize all the air in an area, no matter how big, to be effective.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

intgenx said:


> @theJman - yes some parts especially some electronics from the Far-east is fine - as long as it is mostly made in North America or Europe... and so PowerSound gets on the list right away.. which models should I consider?


I would first look at the XS30. With it's dual opposed drivers there's an inherent enclosure cancellation effect, which often makes the sound even better. My next choice would be the XS15.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

after going through some reviews...
i'm thinking of the following requirements to obtain the best fidelity and vibration free bass:

1. Made in USA/Canada/EU/DU - this is a must have (btw: DU is for the good stuff from Down Under)
2. Sealed (went throught sealed vs ported debate and it seems Sealed is better for fidelity...except for the Genelec's LSE)
3. 8" or 10" - dual opposed drives - for vibration/rattle free bass
4. Needs to have XLR, RCA inputs
5. Low pass filter and other controls
6. LFE+Sum-out for daisy chaining
7. Auto-power on signal (nice to have feature), with volume remote etc

The ADAM Sub8 and Sub10 are not duals but they are within my price range and satisfy most other criteria.

It seems the Velodynes, Paradigms, Power Sound Audio, Seaton, Rhythmik and JL Audio are made in NA - am I right?

any other brands?

and heaven forbid - should nothing exist - I may need the help of the esteemed members of the forum to help me on a DIY.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

intgenx said:


> after going through some reviews...
> i'm thinking of the following requirements to obtain the best fidelity and vibration free bass:
> 
> 1. Sealed
> ...


The one criteria the ADAM's won't fulfill is fit for purpose; they're simply too small to effectively handle the area you want to put them in. At a minimum you should be looking at subs with 12" drivers, but 15" would be actually be better for that volume of space.




intgenx said:


> Where are the Velodynes, Paradigms and JL audio made?


I'll give you 3 guesses, and the first 2 don't count... :whistling:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

intgenx said:


> 2. Sealed (went throught sealed vs ported debate and it seems Sealed is better for fidelity


Ported is far better for a large space and a good quality ported sub will sound just as good "fidelity" wise as a sealed.


> 3. 8" or 10" - dual opposed drives - *for vibration/rattle free bass*


If the sub is built well vibration is a non issue even with one driver.


> 4. Needs to have XLR, RCA inputs


Almost all mid to higher end subs have these.


> 5. Low pass filter and other controls


Standard feature


> 7. Auto-power on signal (nice to have feature), with volume remote etc


all mid to higher end subs have these as well (remote control volume control is very rare) this is usually done via a receiver.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

@theJman - i know you are right - but with ADAM 8" or 10" - I could buy 2 of them... based on what I've been reading the ADAM Owner's manual says "Instead of having one huge subwoofer it often is advisable to incorporate a few smaller ones in the setup to avoid standing waves at very low frequencies."

So to keep cost within reason and judging the WAF after putting in the entire setup - I may decide to add a second sub - in which case if I go 12" now - the WAF may kill it and I will never have a chance to feel what a dual sub setup would feel like... therefore I think I'll stick to 8" or 10" max and focus on fidelity and push-pull models...

@tonyvdb - I've been looking and still haven't found 1 that satisfies all of the above...

again it feels like "water, water, everywhere, nor any drop to drink"

multitude of sub-makers...but none that fits... still hunting for the sub in that Goldilocks zone...

how about this for a DIY - a ported dual driver design set in opposing spiral enclosures like a 69


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

have you all heard or heard of
Acoustic Energy Pro-sub?


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Has Anyone heard or heard of REL subs...

rel . net / products /

Pl. give your thoughts...


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Seaton Submersive
vs
and Martin Logan - Depth i - surely fits the budget, size, brand and performance wise...and i believe its made in Canada...
the only minor issue is that - it has no XLR input... (available on the Descent i - which goes into the $3200 category).
Dont you think XLR input is something a serious hi-fidelity equipment at the $2200 price point ought to have...not sure why Martin Logan cheaped out on such a small thing. Not knowing where in the room it will need to be placed and the Depth/Descent i are apparently known for requiring much more precise placement than other single/dual subs - I'd surely like to run balanced cables if need be (because the Genelec G4 and G3 speakers have both RCA and XLR).

ok so its 
Seaton SubM vs Martin Logan Depth i vs Acoustic Energy Pro-Sub vs Genelec 7060 vs 2 x ADAM Sub 10 vs 2 X Focal CMSSub vs Neumann KH810

WAF apart - not sure if it will be completely worth it to jump to the next higher price bracket:
Paradigm - Sub 1 vs Martin Logan - Descent i vs Genelec 7070 or 2 x 7060


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

There is absolutely no advantage to XLR inputs on a sub unless your planning on running a cable thats over 200ft. XLR is simply balanced and alows for longer runs other than that it audibly will make no difference.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Mark Seaton is a perfectionist, and does nothing half way, something that's evident to anyone who has met the man and heard his creations (which I've done several times). The SubM is widely acknowledged for it's extraordinary sound quality, and should easily be able to handle the space you have. It comes in a multitude of finishes as well, so decor-matching is possible.


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## gorb (Sep 5, 2010)

Out of the new options, my vote is for the seaton submersive. It's generally tops (number one or number two) in every shootout/gtg I've read about, whether the metric is sound quality, output, looks, or whatever else. They're extremely well built, have very high quality components, and the veneer options are also nice. The new master/slave package is also very enticing, but I've not read if that's an option for international customers although I don't know why it wouldn't be.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

The Seaton SubMersive is probably the top candidate here. It's the best manufactured sub I've ever experienced, in every room I've heard it in.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Folks, the Seaton SubMs are having a hard time with the WAF.
A smaller but 2 sub stereo configuration can clear the WAF than one large SubM...

I've been slowly opening up to the idea of a DIY...for which there are many enthusiasts willing to help for nothing more than the thrill of having helped a fellow DIYer.

What are the features/parameters that I should expect in my sub?

I'm thinking the following:
Must have:
1. 10" - dual opposed drives - for vibration/rattle free bass.
2. Sealed cabinet - easier to design and build - than having to optimize or tune the port etc which can be quite complex.
3. Low pass filter for drive protection
4. Needs to have XLR, RCA - gold plated inputs 
5. Max. Cabinet dimensions: 18" x 18" x 24"
6. Level control
7. Clipping and Power surge protection
8. Auto-power on signal
9. No compromise on finish and looks etc...


Nice to haves:
1. Should I consider adding dual passive radiators as well? a quad driver active/passive design?
2. Cross-over adjustment?
3. Is it advisable to use Hard-wood for cabinet instead of MDF? (other than cost - are there any other advantages to MDF - how about an all aluminum cabinet?)
4. Liquid cooled amplifier - like for a PC?
5. Parallel XLR, RCA (pass through same as input) outputs for daisy chaining
6. High pass filter out for connecting the L/R in stereo mode for 2ch music?


I will probably have to take the DIY ideas/discussions onto a different thread or should I continue to keep this thread active...


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## steve nn (Jul 23, 2006)

> I've been slowly opening up to the idea of a DIY...for which there are many enthusiasts willing to help for nothing more than the thrill of having helped a fellow DIYer.


I just went through your thread in it’s entirety and see you have received some very good advice, SVS ,PSA, Rythmik and Seaton suggestions. Since physics are involved (this is where I go for help) and cant be ignored, along with myths that have a way of introducing themselves over time.. I encourage you to go over to DIY and see if you might be alerted to another option in design that might be more attractive to you. I have no doubt they/DIY would be glad to have a discussion with you regarding your performance demands and how that relates to your criteria, and the possible achievement of such a option. As a side note, respectfully.. DIY has to work with the same physics as the ID company's do, although some of those experts have moved on and created their own ID company's.


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

How about Selah... I believe these are made in NC

http://www.selahaudio.com/id187.html


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

also look into a clone MFW15 with a 15 inch SI .... that would be a nice set up and give good results.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1290649/mfw-15-clone-project

My build is in their in pages 3 or 4


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## fschris (Oct 31, 2009)

gorb said:


> Out of the new options, my vote is for the seaton submersive. It's generally tops (number one or number two) in every shootout/gtg I've read about, whether the metric is sound quality, output, looks, or whatever else. They're extremely well built, have very high quality components, and the veneer options are also nice. The new master/slave package is also very enticing, but I've not read if that's an option for international customers although I don't know why it wouldn't be.


I will add to this. you would not be disappointed,.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

I think I've been misunderstood.
not sure why people here seem to be saying I haven't heeded any advice...
Granted I haven't gone for any of the Chinese made subs but I'm 100% sold on the Seaton SubMs - but after I showed the dimensions and some pics to my wife... she said "too big and there ends the matter"...
I've msgd Mark Seaton on the possibility of doing a custom 10" compact sub and I'm ready to order a pair or if the price is right even 3.

but now that I'm sold on the Seaton - how could I go for anything less or any other brand - unless Mark himself suggests something else...

so if he is unable to do a custom one for me ...

and the Martin Logan Depth i and Acoustic Energy Pro-sub are 2nd best in the price category and there seem to be no other choices - then what am I do other than DIY?


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

intgenx said:


> I've msgd Mark Seaton on the possibility of doing a custom 10" compact sub and I'm ready to order a pair or if the price is right even 3.
> 
> but now that I'm sold on the Seaton - how could I go for anything less or any other brand - unless Mark himself suggests something else...
> 
> so if he is unable to do a custom one for me ...


Mark does a lot of custom work, so that's still a possibility. His stuff is rarely small though, so a 10" might not be on his radar. A 12" perhaps, or even a smaller 15", but a 10" to him is a midrange.


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## steve nn (Jul 23, 2006)

> and the Martin Logan Depth i and Acoustic Energy Pro-sub are 2nd best in the price category and there seem to be no other choices - then what am I do other than DIY?


 You might be able to get Brian over at Rythmik to do a couple of custom's for you? I definitely know Funk would, but I’m afraid your budget might not allow once you get into the custom realm though??


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## gorb (Sep 5, 2010)

If you are looking for custom work, you should also take a look at Funk Audio (formerly known as Funky Waves). Every piece of hardware or cabinetry I've seen from that company has been stellar.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Yes... "Size does matter" and in my case its too big for the wife... 
I meant the Seaton SubM... 
and unless he does a compact for me and there may be a few others who are interested...

Apart from the ML Depth i and Acoustic Engergy Pro-sub, I'm now seriously exploring custom and DIY options for a compact 10" dual active sub with a single passive radiator and may go for 2 of these.

may be Selah, 
Rhythmik (I thought someone said these were made in China?)

Not sure what they will cost me in DIY or custom... but based on what I'm seeing on the DIY forums a dual 10" - my vague estimate is it should cost no more than $1000 each.


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## steve nn (Jul 23, 2006)

EDIT.. changed mind.


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## steve nn (Jul 23, 2006)

I know this doesn’t fit your criteria totally but it cant hurt to look. It's a PR design that is quite attractive imo. It keeps the enclosure size at a 18” cube with substantial output. I have a older SDX 15” driver that I really like so I have confidence in the 12”. The kit comes in the sealed form also. 
http://www.creativesound.ca/


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

I think with a DIY - should I consider drivers from Peerless Fabrikkerne India?
peerlessaudio. com
It will save me quite a bit on customs and shipping etc...

How good are their 10", 12" drivers in comparison to whatever else is the best in this segment?

What are the best drivers for 10" or 12" sub-woofers?


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## steve nn (Jul 23, 2006)

SVS uses a variant of the Peerless driver for their NSD options if I’m not mistaken. I can certainly vouch for the quality of the SVS if that’s your direction in a driver. I’ll go over to the site you mention and check it out.


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## Infrasonic (Sep 28, 2010)

My first choice would be a Seaton product also but 2nd would be something from JTR Speakers. Their smaller Captivator S1 is very powerful for the size.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

intgenx - Have you written Vandersteen off?

Also, I think you might find interest in what GR Research has to offer. Perhaps give the owner Danny a call. He knows a little about Peerless India drivers.


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## intgenx (Aug 8, 2013)

Most everyone here and on other forums have me convinced that the sealed opposed duals/triples are the best for fidelity and performance
I don't think I could get myself to go for anything less than a sealed opposed dual... be it 8", 10" or 12"... 

For now - lets assume I drop the customs/DIY - if its just manufactured subs

The following are great but:
1. Seaton SubM (too big to pass WAF)
2. KK DXD808 (2k just for an 8" dual?)
3. Vandersteen 2Wq (takes only speaker level input)

That leaves me with very few choices:
1. Acoustic Energy Pro-sub
2. Martin Logan Depth i

Or Get a Rythmik kit for a DIY dual/quad opposed servo controlled sub (with possible dual passive drivers?) - this will be the ultimate in my opinion and this option will mean I'm going to have to invest the time and motivation to bridge all the gaps in knowledge that I'm painfully aware of ..

and all of my present knowledge (and the knowledge that I don't have enough knowledge yet) - I couldn't have obtained without posting in the many forums... as each forum has given me many little nuggets of information to slowly piece together the puzzle...so thanks everyone...especially the ones who have posted detailed enough educative replies...


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

intgenx said:


> Or Get a Rythmik kit for a DIY dual/quad opposed servo controlled sub (with possible dual passive drivers?) - this will be the ultimate in my opinion and this option will mean I'm going to have to invest the time and motivation to bridge all the gaps in knowledge that I'm painfully aware of ..


Given that, perhaps you should check out Salk Sound. They have a custom Rythmik sub which has dual PR's. With the various finish options available that might be something to consider.


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## steve nn (Jul 23, 2006)

theJman said:


> Given that, perhaps you should check out Salk Sound. They have a custom Rythmik sub which has dual PR's. With the various finish options available that might be something to consider.


That’s ironic this should come up because in investigating another sub that Brian (Rythmik) offers I took the liberty in asking Brian what his thoughts were regarding the PR design. I had no idea about your link Jim, it’s news to me. I noticed another conversation regarding the subject that I’m going to have to revisit also. Anyway I find your link most interesting and appears to be a great option for a custom build.



> Or Get a Rythmik kit for a DIY dual/quad opposed servo controlled sub (with possible dual passive drivers?) - this will be the ultimate in my opinion and this option will mean I'm going to have to invest the time and motivation to bridge all the gaps in knowledge that I'm painfully aware of ..


From a DIY aspect the Rythmik kits are very attractive imo since the dsp aspect is all figured out and employed in their amps not to mention servo and adjustability. Outboards introduce a new set of issues that need to be addressed or a plate that doesn’t have the adjustability and servo if desired.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

steve nn said:


> That’s ironic this should come up because in investigating another sub that Brian (Rythmik) offers I took the liberty in asking Brian what his thoughts were regarding the PR design. I had no idea about your link Jim, it’s news to me. I noticed another conversation regarding the subject that I’m going to have to revisit also. Anyway I find your link most interesting and appears to be a great option for a custom build.


I'm currently in discussions with Jim Salk about getting one to review. Stay tuned...


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## steve nn (Jul 23, 2006)

theJman said:


> I'm currently in discussions with Jim Salk about getting one to review. Stay tuned...


Hey that’s cool Jim, I’ll be looking forward to it. Looks like you’re going to be doing one of the big dogs then! I just got back from HD and will be moving forward myself but am going to check with Brian before I go any further so I know what all my options are. I don’t think he has a PR kit at this time though.

EDIT> To the OP.. Are you still planning or contemplating on going with three sealed 10” DIY subs then? It would be interesting to see what you’ve come up with so far?


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## orion (Sep 18, 2009)

Boy I have to agree with guys here. The Ultra seems the way to go. The other speakers would sound excellent in a smaller room but the space you have to fill would be done better by the Ultra IMHO. Now while a kk or genelec may be more rare doesn't mean it will work best in your situation.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

steve nn said:


> Hey that’s cool Jim, I’ll be looking forward to it. Looks like you’re going to be doing one of the big dogs then!


The Salk dual PR unit is now a 'go' - Jim Salk just emailed me a build sheet for a satin black unit. I've got a few other subs already sitting here for review, so it's going to be a little bit before I can get to this one, but before the end of the year you should it published.


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