# Subs only no EQ but different placements



## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi there,

I have had my subs built for a while now and keep playing with their placement (what little I have) and want to start again but need your advice on what is the best of the two to start off with.

The first on is facing the speakers with no Audyssey or BFD

The second is facing the wall about 400mm away with no Audyssey or BFD.

The third is both together.

I am thinking the second is the best as I don't have that dip between 55 and 95hz so I would only have to apply a few cuts but it would be good to get your much more professional opinions please before I carry on further. Also there looks like a lot more info in the second one.

cheers

Graham


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi there,

I have applied some BFD filters so no boosting at all. 

The first is sub only with BFD facing the wall.

Second is sub and speakers with BFD facing the wall.

When I did it previoulsy with the subs facing the speakers I run Audyssey before I applied the filters and it introduced a big dip at 33hz but there wasn't really a dip there before.

cheers

Graham


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Guys,

A little bit of tweaking and this is the best I can get without Audyssey.

First is without smoothing and the second is with smoothing.

cheers

Graham


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Not sure why you're worried about not boosting with the EQ, but all your equalized graphs look great. :T

Regards,
Wayne


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Thanks Wayne,

When I ran Audyssey I had the big dip at 33hz which I had to boost 8db to get back flat.

I will see how it sounds with them facing towards the wall for a bit. I will re run Audyssey again but what is the best way to do it Audyssey first or last.

cheers

Graham


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## Nuance (Nov 2, 2008)

gperkins_1973 said:


> Thanks Wayne,
> 
> When I ran Audyssey I had the big dip at 33hz which I had to boost 8db to get back flat.
> 
> ...


You'll get mixed answers concerning that question. My preference is to use it only if you need it after applying PEQ using the BFD. Of course, I am a firm believer in not using any EQ above the Schroeder Frequency, so Audyssey is a no no for me. I never liked what it did above that point anyway (sound wise). YMMV.

You response looks very good, just like Wayne said. Enjoy!


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

One of the main reasons for trying them facing the wall is that there seemed to be a nice gain in the upper sub bass frequenies and I thought that would help with music. Obviously I would have to make some cuts but there should be a bit more than with facing the speakers.

The only downfall is that I cannot see the drivers going in and out so if I get a track with high excursion I will have to watch out.

I think the 33hz dip is coming from the right sub even though when they are together there is a very slight dip there and when Audyssey is ran it seems to make it much worse in that area.

cheers

Graham


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Am I the only one that's more concerned about the peak around 160Hz?


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

That's something I saw last night. That is more visible when they are facing the wall. I can eq it out when they are facing the speakers easy so its smooth when I do the subs and speakers together but I cannot get rid of it when they are facing the wall. I may have to go back to how they were before but if anyone has some advice I would really appreciate it.

cheers

Graham


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

What's your crossover? It look like that's around 153Hz... unless you've eq'd out phase issues, I would've expected that to come from the mains, so the sub orientation would have little or no effect...


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Or sub equalization...

Regards,
Wayne


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi guys,

I am crossing over at 80hz. I will run some more tests tonight when I get home to see if I can EQ it out.

cheers
graham


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

It almost looks as if your mains are hot relative to your subs. Did you do a lot of EQ cutting since you last level matched? You may want to recalibrate the overall levels. Your last graph looks good. In the future just leave the smoothing off for <200hz measurements. I'm not surprised that your upper response cleaned up after pointing the subs into the wall. You have big subs and when the driver is 3 or 4 feet away from the wall it can put a big null in that range. I did something similar, but I left one sub pointed out to monitor the driver as you put it even though it slightly worsened the response.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Ricci,

I think I am going crazy. I have moved them back to facing the speakers and run a house curve of 30hz +6 and 80hz 0 and got the curve looking ok but when I added the speakers straight afterwards the sub defo looked too low compared to the speakers so I re did the levels of 75db for sub and speakers and it still looks wrong to me. I have turned Audyssey off.

The now seems to be a big dip between 80 and 95hz.

1st graph is sub only with house curve and 2nd is sub and speakers.


Any thoughts.

cheers

Graham


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

I have just altered the subs distance from 2.4m to 1.5m and it looks better but there is that big peak in what looks like about 160hz.

cheers

Graham


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## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

To evaluate what is happening at the high end, you may want to run the sweep up to 500Hz or 1000Hz. My mains start showing significant room effects beginning at 100Hz, including large peaks, that are not present higher up. This is the region where you begin seeing the effects of surface reflections, including the ceiling. 

Bill


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

I agree with Bill, extend your graphs out to 3 kHz or so. That might not be a hump at 160, it may just show the overall level of your mains.

Regards,
Wayne


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

I think it must be something to do with the Audyssey off as this pic is me quickly re EQing with Audyssey on and I don't get the same problem.

What do you guys think?

cheers

Graham


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

This is with audyssey off. The EQ for the sub will be wrong but you can see the speaker response.

The second one is both together, Audysse on and off.

cheers
graham


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

This is the next band of frequencies along with both together.

cheers

Graham


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

gperkins_1973 said:


> I may have to go back to how they were before but if anyone has some advice I would really appreciate it.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Graham


Your graphs look pretty good. My advice is to put the graph away for a bit and listen. If your happy then there is little else to it. You seem to be falling into the trap many of us do at first, in that the endless eq bug grips and you endlessly try improve on what you have.

Eventually you have to try realise that its pretty good, and you have arrived 

All in all I think all your responses are far from bad. Your mains do look a little hot, but I think yo should listen to your ears on that one, as the overall response is fairly flat, and would be envied by some.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Dan,

I know what you mean. I think I will re run Audyssey again at the weekend to see if that dip is there the second time around and then re EQ if need be. Is it better to turn down the gain on the EP4000 when it does the calibration or shall I leave it on max as it is now.

cheers

Graham


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Please yourself on that one really, unless you get faults from audyssey at lower volumes. As long as the end result is achieved, where the gain is set isnt critical.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Judging from this graph, your EQ doesn't look bad. It just looks like the sub is set way low compared to the mains. That explains that 160 Hz hump (which the extended-range graph shows is actually non-existent) and the 80 Hz dip.










Regards,
Wayne


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Wayne,

I re did the levels with the sub and speakers afterwards so thats really wierd. When I run Audyssey can I run just one initial measurement in the calibration to see what it would be or do I have to do all 6 measurements. I thought of trying Audyssey with the subs facing the speakers again, then at an angle facing the listening position and then facing the wall to see what Audyssey makes of their positions. I didn't want to have to do 3 lots of 6 measurements as it will takes ages. 

Is it possible that Audyssey is seeing the 33hz dip in the right sub when it does its calibration or will it only see both together as a combine response thus still having after the calibration run.

I just saw the pic you uploaded back. I see what you mean.

cheers
graham


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> When I run Audyssey can I run just one initial measurement in the calibration to see what it would be or do I have to do all 6 measurements.


Never used Audssey, so I can't advise you on that. I'm just guessing that when you play some music or a movie you're going to find the bass lacking. I would just raise the sub level manually until it sounds right.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Nuance (Nov 2, 2008)

As usual, Wayne is right. Even if you weren't running a house curve, your subwoofer levels compared to your mains would still be too soft. I am not a fan of using an SPL meter to check my subwoofer levels against my main speakers levels; I instead use REW. And according to REW your speaker output is louder than the subs. Try raising the subwoofer output level until the graph shows a smoother transition at 80Hz (get the 80Hz decibel level up to around 85dB). Also, please measure to 5KHz this time, so we can see what levels your speakers are averaging. Apply smoothing so the upper frequencies are easier to read.

P.S. Try doing this with Audyssey off and in the same subwoofer configuration you had when you posted the most recent measurement.


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## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

gperkins_1973 said:


> ... When I run Audyssey can I run just one initial measurement in the calibration to see what it would be or do I have to do all 6 measurements. I thought of trying Audyssey with the subs facing the speakers again, then at an angle facing the listening position and then facing the wall to see what Audyssey makes of their positions. I didn't want to have to do 3 lots of 6 measurements as it will takes ages.
> 
> Is it possible that Audyssey is seeing the 33hz dip in the right sub when it does its calibration or will it only see both together as a combine response thus still having after the calibration run.
> ...


Audyssey will certainly give different results if you use all 6 measurement points, or at least more than one. With only one, it has a hard time determining what is a common characteristic across the entire bubble from what is specific to the first measurement position. 

One idea for speeding up the process, if you are trying several ideas, would be to disconnect the center and surround speakers, so you are running Audyssey setup on only the front L/R and sub. You can then run the full process after you have determined which configuration gives the best sub results. 

The common advice today for multiple subs is to let Audyssey see them both together (after their gains have been set to give equal SPL values) and generate the one equalization for the two combined. 

Bill


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Here I go again... am I the only one that sees the SPL of the mains increasing with increasing frequency?


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## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

No, your not the only one, Greg. But I thought Graham explained that in his remark: 



gperkins_1973 said:


> ... I re did the levels with the sub and speakers afterwards ...


So I assumed Graham's SPL meter indicated the speakers were level, whereas the REW measurement looks surprising. Graham, is this a correct assumption? I've actually believe my most accurate SPL measurements for my sub happen when I calibrate REW against the SPL meter using the main speaker levels, a region where the SPL meter is probably most accurate, then let REW measure the SPL of the sub's tones. 

Bill


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## Nuance (Nov 2, 2008)

glaufman said:


> Here I go again... am I the only one that sees the SPL of the mains increasing with increasing frequency?


Ah, no - read the previous posts. 


laser188139 said:


> No, your not the only one, Greg. But I thought Graham explained that in his remark:
> So I assumed Graham's SPL meter indicated the speakers were level, whereas the REW measurement looks surprising. Graham, is this a correct assumption? I've actually believe my most accurate SPL measurements for my sub happen when I calibrate REW against the SPL meter using the main speaker levels, a region where the SPL meter is probably most accurate, then let REW measure the SPL of the sub's tones.
> 
> Bill


Bingo. As I mentioned above, don't use the SPL meter to get the sub's levels to match the mains; use REW. He hasn't posted an updated graph, so lets wait till then.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

I went back and re-read as suggested, but it seems we're talking about different things... I'm not talking about the mains being a higher level than the subs... I'm talking about just the mains showing a rise by themselves... at 200Hz (where the sub should no longer be realistically in play) the average SPL looks to be about 84dB, rising to aobut 92dB at 3kHz.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

glaufman said:


> Here I go again... am I the only one that sees the SPL of the mains increasing with increasing frequency?


Personally, I don't get overly concerned by stuff like that if all I have is a limited-range graph.

Regards,
Wayne


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Guys,

I am going to re run Audyssey again tonight in the three different positions and measure 3 graphs to see how different they are. 

1 - Facing speakers
2 - Facing wall
3 - Angle facing listening position

After reading various bits today it would look like I have a bad null at 35hz but I will see what Audyssey does tonight. This is made worse by Audyssey as it is not showing hardly at all on the sub only with no Audyssey measurement so I am hoping that Audyssey threw up a blip when it did its calibration.

Attached is my room layout so you can see how everything is laid out. The grey boxes are my sub which are about 15 feet apart. The black square on the sofa is the listening position. The pic is not to scale and there is more room around the subs than what looks in the pics.

cheers

Graham


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Personally, I don't get overly concerned by stuff like that if all I have is a limited-range graph.


Fair enough.

Gperkins: I don't think I've seen a 35Hz dip in your response since post #1, at least not one big enough to be of concern... that being said, your 16.5ft dimension corresponds to 35Hz rather closely...


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Here's my original sub only with and without audyssey. The Audyssey being the second one.

See the dip in the second where it wasn't in the first one.

cheers

Graham


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## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

That dip is not so surprising. I was expecting you were describing something like that. Audyssey is trying to reduce the peak at 50Hz, and when suppressing it naturally the frequencies around it are suppressed, too. I've seen the same general advice in the forum on using a parametric equalizer: that the most important problem is to equalize the peaks, as these interfere with the ears ability to hear the other sounds. The dips are less important. (I'm sure others can elaborate on this.) So what you see in the Audyssey curve is that the peaks are much more even across the entire curve, up to the crossover. And that's a good result. 

Bill


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Bill,

Cheers mate. From that I did at a 8db boost at 34hz to level it out. Should I bother. I did run a sinewave at 34hz before and after the boost and it did change alot so I am guessing it worked.

cheers

Graham


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## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

As you have both BFD and Audyssey, I take it you applied the boost using the BFD. That would indeed be one approach to using them together. You could take a new measurement of the entire curve to see how it works out. 

As regards the order of using BFD before or after Audyssey setup, I can see pros and cons to each approach. The obvious inconvenience with adjusting the curve with BFD after running Audyssey is you will need to turn it off again if you run the Audyssey setup again, if you expect to obtain the same results. As well, I don't know if the BFD filters will also change the timing, which Audyssey is already trying to adjust. 

I expect the more typical approach is to try to adjust all the peaks with BFD with Audyssey Off, then running Audyssey setup afterwards to fine tune its results. This would be similar to the approach recommended for people who combine the Audyssey Sub EQ product with an Audyssey enabled receiver. 

Maybe someone who has used both together can chime in with what worked best for them. 

Bill


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## Nuance (Nov 2, 2008)

Graham,

Are you using Audyssey to flatten the response above the crossover? If not, don't use Audyssey at all; just use the BFD. If you are, then perhaps running it before applying the BFD filters is a good idea. Then you can just fine tune it a little, and boost that null that Audyssey created. 

Also, as Wayne and I stated earlier, please post a more full range measurement (how about from 15Hz to 5000Hz or even 10,000Hz, and use the graph limits of 105 for the top and 45 for the bottom). Then we'll know for sure, and we can also see what Audyssey is doing above the crossover. So maybe post a before and after full range measurement (with smoothing).


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Will do. I will post some graphs as soon as I get home from work. 
Really appreciate all your help on this.

cheers

graham
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Right starting from scratch....

I took the measurements you asked me to and here they are:

1. Left of sofa
a: sub only
b: sub and speakers to 5000k

2. Centre of sofa
a: sub only 
b: sub and speakers to 5000k

3. Right of sofa
a: sub only
b: sub and speakers to 500k

The graphs are in that order. I think the centre of the sofa is giving the best sub only graph.
These are WITHOUT Audyssey. The speaker response looks pretty good I think.

Your thoughts will be appreciated.


cheers

Graham


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Guys,

I have just redone Audyssey again but measured the 1st position from the centre of the sofa and WOW what a difference. 

The first is sub only with Audyssey and NO BFD

The second is sub and speakers with Audyssey and NO BFD to 200hz

The third is sub and speakers with Audyssey and NO BFD to 5000khz

It does look like the speakers go up so I don't know whether I need to trim the speakers back a tad.


I could probably get away with not having the BFD but I think I will tweak anyway.

Be good to get your opinions on whether to bother with the BFD or not and also your thoughts on the graphs.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

These are my finished curves.

1. Sub only with Audyssey and BFD
2. Sub and speakers with Audyssey and BFD
3. sub and speakers with Audyssey and BFD with tweak
4. Sub and speakers with Audyssey and BFD to 5000khz

The main thing is I haven't used hardly any filters and I have loads of headroom so all good I think.

I am still a bit concerned that my mains seem to be raising as the frequencies go up. Is this normal?

cheers

Graham


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## laser188139 (Sep 19, 2009)

Graham, it looks like you are making progress with the sub; its curve looks very flat. 

I've been looking back and I don't see that you said what you are using for a microphone. Your curve looks weird, but I would take that as indicating that the microphone is misleading you, not that you have a problem. First, one can take as a given that Audyssey applies changes to level the peaks, with a mid range dip around 2kHz, and then a drop starting at 10kHz on up. So, the Audyssey microphone did not report to the receiver the curve you are seeing. That leaves only a few possibilities: (a) whether, for some reason, the Audyssey microphone was way out of spec, (b) whether you are measuring with a microphone in a very different position than where you placed the Audyssey microphone, or (c) whether your measurement microphone is not omnidirectional and is seeing the echoes very differently than did the Audessey mic. If the REW sweeps sound fairly even, not increasing in strength as you are seeing with your curve, I would conclude that the curve is an anomaly from your microphone. 

Now, if you bought a calibrated microphone with its own calibration file, then one would have to look for another explanation. But if you are using, say, a Radio Shack microphone with the generic calibration file, call yourself done and enjoy the results. 

Bill


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Bill,

I have tweaked the levels more by upping the sub and its alot better now. Graph attached.

I am using the microphone that came with the Onkyo 876 to do the calibration and the analogue Radio shack to do the rest. I will do some listening tests tomorrow but straight away when I re did my levels in REW after Audyssey and run new measurements I saw much more headroom than before.

I changed my crossover to 90hz from 80hz aswell. The mains still look a little higher than the sub as it goes up the frequency but how much I will hear when watching films I don't know.

The trouble with me is I am a perfectionist which is why I keep going back and tweaking but whether anymore tweaking will be audioble I don't know that either.

I really appreciated everyones help on this.

Much appreciated.

Graham


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

laser188139 said:


> Graham, it looks like you are making progress with the sub; its curve looks very flat.
> 
> I've been looking back and I don't see that you said what you are using for a microphone. Your curve looks weird, but I would take that as indicating that the microphone is misleading you, not that you have a problem. First, one can take as a given that Audyssey applies changes to level the peaks, with a mid range dip around 2kHz, and then a drop starting at 10kHz on up. So, the Audyssey microphone did not report to the receiver the curve you are seeing. That leaves only a few possibilities: (a) whether, for some reason, the Audyssey microphone was way out of spec, (b) whether you are measuring with a microphone in a very different position than where you placed the Audyssey microphone, or (c) whether your measurement microphone is not omnidirectional and is seeing the echoes very differently than did the Audessey mic. If the REW sweeps sound fairly even, not increasing in strength as you are seeing with your curve, I would conclude that the curve is an anomaly from your microphone.
> 
> ...



+1

Regards,
Wayne


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Here's one to 5000k.

cheers

Graham


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## Nuance (Nov 2, 2008)

The response from 10-200 looks great, but then when looking at the graph to 5000Hz the speaker levels jump way up to the 90's (on average), meaning your subwoofer levels are too low (or your speakers levels are too high). Which leads me to ask, why are you measuring so loud? Try measuring at 75dB instead of the high 80's, low 90's.

Oh, and +2 to what laser said. If I understand this correctly, you're using the mic that came with the receiver to run Audyssey (which is what you're suppose to do), then the radio shack meter to measure everything using REW once Audyssey is done? For what its worth, the Radio Shack meter is only good up till about 3000Hz. I assumed you had a full range mic, which is why I asked you to measure to 5000Hz. Sorry about that. Are you placing the radio shack meter at ear level at the listening position with it pointed up at the ceiling when you take these measurements?

If you are measuring everything properly, then the weirdest thing I see is the output between 80 and 200hz. You can fix the lower output of the subwoofer by either turning your speaker levels down in the receiver, or by turning up the subwoofer levels. But even after doing that I suspect the output between 80 and 200Hz will be low. I can only guess this is room related.


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

I am placing the radioshack at ear leve and pointing at the ceiling. I will try and lower my mains but I calibrated all speakers and sub with the Radioshack to get to 75db for the speakers and I need to double check the sub. I will do a couple of more tests tomorrow but ultimately I will listen to some music and watch a few films to get a feel of how it sounds.

At the moment I have my fronts and centre on -1db and my rears on 0db. My sub is on +1b and my EP4000 is on max.

cheers

Graham


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## Nuance (Nov 2, 2008)

Then everything should be a-okay. 

I'd imagine after your listening session you'll think the bass isn't prominent enough (especially for movies), but who knows. Only you can determine what you like.

Enjoy!


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi there,

I have been listening to some music and to be honest it sounds great. The bass almost sounds tighter aswell as deep. I am very impressed so far. I ran some tests the other day and it looks like my second sub has a 6db gain from 10-30hz over the one sub and level after that so movies are going to be very interesting to say the least. I projected 114db at 20hz with one sub without gain so two subs at that frequency should easily see 120db at 20hz plus gain.

Even sitting in the seat next to the sub it doesn't sound boomy like it did before. Is this something Audyssey has done with the re calibration from a different master initial position.

Believe me I am not short of bass in anyway shape or form, if anything some people who might say I have too much but that is down to taste.

I played opus dei at only -20db and I was really pleased with the sound. I wanted to be sneaky and go alot louder but A: the neighbours are in and B: the missus moaned about the plates rattling in the kitchen. Oops!

cheers guys
graham


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## Ricci (May 23, 2007)

Graham,

A few things. The rising response of your mains is strange. Most of the time what you will find in room is that the response gradually tapers off with the main speakers being strongest in the 100-500hz range and slowly tapering off from there. I don't think there is anything wrong with your speakers. It is likely the generic calibration file being used for your RS meter. There can be a lot of variation between units and perhaps your is significantly different from the curve that the cal file is for. 

You have a 52hz resonance at your couch listening position. When the levels are calibrated the highest peak in the response is what is going to drive the reading. 

I assume that your REW graphs are for 1 position only, your main one? When you are running Audyssey you are measuring at 6 different positions correct? Audyssey will EQ the average of all the positions measured, which may mean that the response at the single main position may in some cases degrade in areas instead of improving(35hz for example), because the average may require something else. Are you measuring at the same mic positions as when you run Audyssey? If you run Audyssey for 6 positions you should measure all 6 positions with REW and average them to see the full picture of what Audyssey is doing. At that point look at the averaged response and the main listening spot response and identify problems that exist in both responses. If 35hz is sucked out in both the 6 position average and at your single main position too, then try boosting it. If it's sucked out at your main position, but is peaking a little on the average you'll worsen your average in room response, to correct it at one narrow spot by boosting it. Make sense? 

Are you using smoothing on your bass only graphs <200hz?


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Ricci,

Yep I did 6 positions. 1st was in the centre rear of the sofa, 2nd was 2 feet to the left, 3rd 2 feet to the right, 4th 2 feet in front of the 2nd one and then the 6th was 2 feet in front of the 3rd one.

I will measure all six with REW tonight and see how they look and post them up for you to have a look at.

I have applied smoothing but here are the graphs without smoothing.

1. sub only no audyssey
2. sub and speakers no audyssey
3. sub only with audyssey
4. sub and speakers with audyssey

I have to say it defo sounds better now than it did before. 

cheers
graham


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Ricci said:


> When you are running Audyssey you are measuring at 6 different positions correct? Audyssey will EQ the average of all the positions measured,


Just to throw a spanner in the works, Audyssey doesnt average the responses, it takes your measurements and applies some sort of fuzzy logic witch craft they wont elaborate on, and eq's based on that :dumbcrazy:


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Don't you just love secrets! At least it works ok I guess. Sort off.

cheers
Graham


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

I always seem to get favourable results, but it seems hit and miss for some. Certain things can throw it off a bit and I always put as much effort in pre-eq'ing as possible as the more you can do for it before hand the better it works. Also, it doesnt like to much noise in the signal and some people seem to have had issues in the pat with proximity to objects which can cause ringing etc.

As ever, there are many variables and you have to just do the best you can. If all goes well you get the result, as many do :T


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