# WANTED: New Control Center



## Suntower (Nov 7, 2006)

Hi,

I'm a musician with a home studio. Or rather, it would be more accurate to say that I have a studio that happens to have a kitchen and a couple of beds. 


I have balanced cabling for recording audio as well as Cat-5 wires under the house which basically allow me to record in any room in the joint.

HOWEVER... as time goes by, I'm getting more nuts about listening. I'm looking for a way to -listen- to what I'm working on all over the place. In the back yard. In various rooms. From various sources.

So... I guess I'm looking for some sort of 'control center' receiver. Something CHEAP where I can route at least 8 sources to at least 5 sets of speakers (some of which are self-powered and some of which are cordless).

I'm sure the world has changed a LOT since I bought my last receiver way back in 1991 so this is probably a 'Duh' question to y'all. Although I understand RECORDING very well, I know very little about 'stereos' or 'home theatre' offerings.

I want to be able to route:
1. DVD sound (from my 5.1 Samsung home system)
2. CD player
3. Cassette deck
4. Two turntables
5. FM 'Receiver' (this is what I call 'the stereo')
6. 2 Computer servers

So that's 8 'ins' right there.

I currently have 6 sets of speakers in various spots. Two powered by 'the stereo' receiver. One set is linked to the DAW. Two are cordless and get sourced by computers for MP3 listening. One is the 5.1 home theatre.

I'd love it if I could route any signal anywhere via remote control with universal volume control. My ultimate goal would be to 'rip' all my audio into the computers and get rid of the CDs/cassettes altogether, but that ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

Any recommendations? Places to go learn more?

I know this is a vague question akin to 'teach me how to drive', but I gotta start somewhere!
THANKS!

---JC


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## Otto (May 18, 2006)

Hey there, Suntower, and welcome to the Shack!

I think I understand what you want to do.

Eight inputs isn't necessarily a lot, but it sounds like some may be redundant. With this type of system, I would probably encourage you to get a good start and then build up from there. 

Some issues:

Two turntables -- most turntables use either a "moving magnet" or "moving coil" cartridge, and the signal needs to be sent to a "phono" input. Today's receivers _may_ have one phono input, but I don't think I've ever heard of one that has _two_ phono inputs. In order to use the "normal" L/R stereo inputs, you will need to have a phono preamp. Just something to consider. OTOH, if you are looking for background music while you're gardening or tinkering with the car, perhaps vinyl isn't your best option anyway. I, too, have a turntable, and the flipping of the record is too much for me to deal with while I'm BBQing on the back patio and listening to my music out there. For that kind of continuous background music, I'd much rather set up a playlist on my PC and just let it run for hours.

Anything that's officially and appropriately called a "receiver" will have an AM/FM tuner, so I think your clear there.

Computer servers -- I use one PC connected directly to my preamp, and the server sits in the basement. How do you connect these to your systems? Digital or analog? Either way, I think you should be able to connect them to the receiver.

Remember, anything you want to connect to the receiver will have to be located within a decent range of it. Or you will have to run the appropriate wires. It's not that big of a deal, but it's something to consider. 

Do you want to be able to listen to two different things at once? That is, would you like to have a friend or family member watch a DVD on the 5.1 system, while you listen to music from the PC in the garage? If so, you should consider at least a two-zone system. Many home theater receivers do this already, but it's usually a step up from the low-end receivers. I use this feature everyday to listen to my "zone 2" in my family room and patio, while "zone 1" is in the living room. More than listening to independent sources, we mostly use the independent volume controls between rooms.

There are a variety of volume controls, but if you really want to be able to do things remotely, it might get expensive. I use a Harmony 890 remote, which is RF based, so I can use it throughout my property to access most everything I need. I also have an in-wall volume knob for the patio speakers. Again, you start to get into implementation complexities here. You mentioned that you have some wireless speakers, so you may be on to something that's more flexible that what I'm thinking. If you can control each of those speakers individually, you may not need these other volume controls. If you wish to control the volume of six pairs of speakers, all at different levels, we'll need to see how it's already set up and working.

Also, if your speakers are already set up and working with _other_ systems, you'll need to consider how to integrate the two systems together.

What is your budget? How much do you care about sound quality?

There a start! Again, welcome to the Shack!


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## Suntower (Nov 7, 2006)

Hi and thanks for the reply. I'm typing 1-handed so I gotta be terse.

FIRST: I -hate- the UI on this forum. Is there a way to
a) Change the screen font?
b) Remove the smilies and make the edit window larger?

Onward:

1. Turntables: I have a separate DJ mixer for the turntables so I really don't even need an RIAA input.

2. Blue-skying I initially thought that what I really need is a 'receiver' with:
1. AM/FM Tuner
2. Input for CD player
3. Input for 5.1 sound from DVD jukebox
4. Input from cassette player
5. RIAA input from one turbtable
6. At least 4 -balanced- inputs from the various recording gizmos (these include the computers. I need BALANCED because I'm running these things over distances from 20 - 80ft from the 'receiver'.

3. Now AFA the outputs... I don't need digital outputs really
a The thing should have power for at least (2) sets of 2.1 speakers
b. 1 set of 5.1 outputs to the self-powered home theatre speakers
c. 3 sets of remote wireless speakers (RCA line level?)
d. At least 2 BALANCED 2.1 outputs I can run back to the studio rooms (I'd like even more if possible.) Again, this is for long distances.

4. One remote that could work all over the house (not just within line of sight). Ideally, I'd loveit if I could have more than 1 remote.

5. Multiple zones? I hadn't even entertained that idea. (Entertain--get it?  ) If it were possible to have multiple sources going simultaneously that would just be the COOLEST thing since bikinis and penicillin.

6. The 'sound quality' is complicated. Most of these speakers are cheap-o. But the actual signals being routed (especially the BALANCED outs back to the studio should be pristine. The monitors in my main studio are over $2k so I care about sound in those rooms. The 'TV' and patio speakers? Not so much. So I would say that the power amp section doesn't have to be good, but the pre-amp and routing circuit DOES.

So.... 

Are we getting closer?

THANKS!

---JC

PS: I'd draw a diagram, but it's too hard 1-handed. Sorry. The fact that I just spent 30 minutes pecking this out should indicate however, how important this is to me.


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## Otto (May 18, 2006)

Hi there,

I'm not sure about changing the forum format or style. I do know that it's technically possible, but we haven't had any other complaints... Perhaps I've just grown accustomed to it, but I do find it more user friendly than the other forums I frequent.

Before we go into too much detail, I can start to shoot down a few things.

No "reasonably priced" receiver is going to have more than one set of balanced inputs. More likely, they will have zero balanced inputs and zero balanced outupts. I have an Outlaw 990 that retails for $1k, and it has no balanced inputs, and a 7.1 balanced output set (in addition to the single-ended 7.1 outputs). My Cary preamp has one pair (i.e., a single left and a single right) of balanced inputs, and retails for about 3x the cost of the Outlaw. While some of the more high-end HT stuff will support balanced I/O, there usually aren't many inputs.

As to outputs: 

Most won't _power _two sets of 2.1, but they may have amplifier-level outputs for two sets of 2.0, depending on how you set it up. From there, you will also probably have a sub output that would be used for your .1. Depending how it's set up, it may be more of a 2.0 and a 2.1, as the sub out may only apply to one of the sets of outputs. Most of the two-zone stuff that I've ever seen has only a stereo pair out for the second zone (i.e., no sub specifically dedicated to the second zone).

RF-based remotes are available from Harmony and others. Unless you live in a _huge_ house, it should be able to work anywhere in the house. You could certainly buy more than one of these types of remotes, but I must admit that I'm not exactly sure how they would interact -- would they interfere with each other? Would they just work as two remotes that could be used anytime? Would they be considered two totally independent remotes? Not sure...

Two zones is easy to do, so no worries there. If you want more than two, it's definitely possible, but you will need more than one receiver (although I think I have seen receivers that support _three_ zones, I have not seen more than that; not sure which brand it was that did three, but it was a more high-end model for sure, perhaps HarmanKardon?). Multiple zones _are _cooler than penicillin, but I'm not sure if they are better than bikinis.

Sound quality is subjective, but most of these receivers are pretty dang good, especially considering the price to features and price to performance ratios. Many have excellent signal routing. Since you are supplying your own power, I think you will get good results.

So, I think we're getting closer, but you'll have to consider what to do with the lack of balanced I/O on most consumer-level receivers. Perhaps you'll have to throw a pro mixer in there somewhere. As long as you aren't running all signals at the same time, I think it could get you closer.


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## Suntower (Nov 7, 2006)

OK, so no balanced -nuthin-'.

So....

1. Inputs
a. AM/FM Tuner
b. RIAA input from one turbtable
c. Line Input for CD player
d. Line Input from cassette player
e. Inputs for 5.1 sound from DVD jukebox

But balanced or not, I still then need more inputs for the studio stuff (pro soundcards, etc.) It would be better if they were line level (like a musical keyboard rather than a typical RCA), but I'm sure you'll tell me that isn't doable either. 

2. Outputs. I misspoke. I do NOT need 2.1. I need. 2.0 NO SUBWOOFER. Never use 'em. Sorry. So...

a The thing should have power for at least (2) sets of 2.0 speakers. They don't need to be very powerful at all.
b. 1 set of 5.1 outputs to the self-powered home theatre speakers
c. 3 sets of remote wireless speakers (RCA line level?)
d. 2 other outputs (balanced or not) I can run back to the studio rooms (I'd like even more if possible.) Again, this is for long distances.

3. 2 remotes. One for me; one for wife.

4. 2 zones

AFA the bal/unbal thing---I can purchase level converters; it's just that they're expensive.

Now what?

THANKS!

---JC

PS: The thing about the edit window is
a) The font is ---way--- too big
b) The smilies take up 1/3 the window
Between the two, they make it hard to see what I'm woking on with these novel-length messages.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> So... I guess I'm looking for some sort of 'control center' receiver. Something CHEAP where I can route at least 8 sources to at least 5 sets of speakers (some of which are self-powered and some of which are cordless).
> 
> I'm sure the world has changed a LOT since I bought my last receiver way back in 1991 so this is probably a 'Duh' question to y'all. Although I understand RECORDING very well, I know very little about 'stereos' or 'home theatre' offerings.
> 
> ...


I’m a little unclear – do you want to send a feed from your studio to your home theater receiver, which would be the “central hub” for distribution around the house? Or are you wanting something in your studio to act as the “central hub” for all this, which would also include a feed from your home theater? Item #1 seems to indicate the latter, since you said “*from* my Samsung home system.”

P.S. I put in a request for some of our "techie" members to help you with the UI problem.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Suntower (Nov 7, 2006)

-I'm- a little unclear on this! 

I'm typing 1-hand so I'm sure I'm leaving things out.

OK, I want the 'theatre receiver' to be the hub. In every day work, I listen to recordings directly through the studio monitors. BUT... I want to be able to feed that signal over to the 'theatre receiver' if I want to listen to stuff in other parts of the house.

I -also- want to be able to feed sounds from the 'theatre receiver' back to the studio. Eg. if I wanted to take some audio from a cassette or turntable and send it into the studio recorder.

But it -general- the 'theatre receiver' is the hub; it's mainly for my wife and I to be able to flip a button on her remote and switch from (for example)
a. An MP3 on a computer
b. A CD
c. Some audio from the studio
...and play it either on
a. The patio speakers
b. The living room speakers
c. The kitchen speakers

...alll with the remote of course. 

We can do -some- of this now using our cheap-o 1992 receiver BUT we have to use 4 remotes and we can only use 2 sets of speakers and we don't have nearly enough inputs.

So my dream system would be a lot like what we have now but with LOTS more inputs and LOTS more outputs and 2 zones and a single remote. Oh, and CHEAP too! 

Ideas?

---JC




Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> I’m a little unclear – do you want to send a feed from your studio to your home theater receiver, which would be the “central hub” for distribution around the house? Or are you wanting something in your studio to act as the “central hub” for all this, which would also include a feed from your home theater? Item #1 seems to indicate the latter, since you said “*from* my Samsung home system.”
> 
> P.S. I put in a request for some of our "techie" members to help you with the UI problem.
> 
> ...


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## brucek (Apr 11, 2006)

> The thing about the edit window


Fairly easy to make the edit window as big as you like with the edit window size adjustments....











With Internet Explorer you can choose any size that suits you. Big or small.









brucek


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Suntower said:


> FIRST: I -hate- the UI on this forum. Is there a way to
> a) Change the screen font?
> b) Remove the smilies and make the edit window larger?





Suntower said:


> PS: The thing about the edit window is
> a) The font is ---way--- too big
> b) The smilies take up 1/3 the window
> Between the two, they make it hard to see what I'm working on with these novel-length messages.


Unfortunately no one can make a forum that is going to be 100% satisfactory to every user, therefore we try to please the majority, which I think we do a very good job of. :nerd:

If we change the font on our end, it will be so small that most users who have the font on their end set to a normal viewing size will not be able to read it. You can adjust the screen font on your end via your browser. How that is accomplished will depend on your browser. You might check your browser help section for instructions. That would definitely solve your font issues. If you are using Firefox you can adjust it by going to Tools >> Options >> Content >> Fonts and Colors section... and change the font size to something smaller. In Firefox you can also hold down the Control key on your keyboard and use your mouse scroll to increase or decrease the your source view, which will decrease your font and allow you to see more of your posting area at the same time, that is once you make the adjustment described below.

To make the message posting area bigger, we have an adjustment option for this. You can adjust it to take up your entire screen if you so desire... similar to what you see below...










Hope this helps... :T


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

And brucek is quicker to the draw than I... :huh:


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## Suntower (Nov 7, 2006)

COOL! Now, if I could turn off the smilies I'd be in hog heaven.

THANKS!

---JC



brucek said:


> Fairly easy to make the edit window as big as you like with the edit window size adjustments....
> 
> View attachment 3845
> 
> ...


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Post in the Quick Reply box... no smilies. It doesn't appear you need the advanced posting area anyway. OR increase your message posting area so that they fall off the screen.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> OK, I want the 'theatre receiver' to be the hub. In every day work, I listen to recordings directly through the studio monitors. BUT... I want to be able to feed that signal over to the 'theatre receiver' if I want to listen to stuff in other parts of the house.
> 
> I -also- want to be able to feed sounds from the 'theatre receiver' back to the studio. Eg. if I wanted to take some audio from a cassette or turntable and send it into the studio recorder.


Okay, now we’re getting somewhere! All you need in that case is a feed from your studio to a spare input on your home theater receiver. You can use something like this min-mixer to convert the signal to unbalanced at the receiver.










From the home theater receiver to the studio, run another line. If you don’t have specific second-zone outputs, any of these outputs will get you an audio feed that will send the same signal you’re listening to on the home theater system:







​

Feed the output from the receiver to a direct box like this, to convert to balanced for the run back to the studio.










As far as playing everything on the patio, living room or kitchen speakers, that will depend on the capabilities of your receiver. It would be helpful if you could post an on-line manual for us to study and make recommendations, but typically using two extra sets of speakers will require some additional amplifiers.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Suntower (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks for all that. 

1. DI boxes I can get. The main trouble I've had is that the impedance isn't quite right for my current receiver. That's why I'd hoped to get balanced ins/outs. IOW: the 'aux' iput on my current receiver isn't properly matched to the 'line' level out of my studio mixer. Hopefully the newer ones are more flexible in this regard, even if they are unbalanced.

2. So... let's get down to specifics! 

a. How many inputs can one expect to get on a modestly priced receiver?

b. How many powered outputs? (I would assume 2). 

c. How many Non-powered outputs? (hopefully at least 4)
i. Studio mixer
ii. wireless spkrs on patio
iii wireless spkrs in garage
iv. 5.1 speakers

d. Zones?

e. 2 RF Remotes?

Brands? Costs? It's so exciting. 

THANKS!

---JC


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> IOW: the 'aux' iput on my current receiver isn't properly matched to the 'line' level out of my studio mixer.


How so – too hot, or too soft? Isn’t there a level adjustment for the studio line out?



> 2. So... let's get down to specifics!
> 
> a. How many inputs can one expect to get on a modestly priced receiver?
> 
> ...


At this point, maybe you should start researching the manufacturers' sites. Most all include on-line manuals, so you can determine their connection capabilities and features. Here are links to some popular brands:

http://www.usa.denon.com/#start
http://www.harmankardon.com/products/featured_products.aspx?Language=ENG&Region=USA&Country=US
http://us.marantz.com/default.asp
http://www.onkyousa.com/
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/
http://www.yamaha.ca/av/Manuals.jsp#operating?from=support
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/home/0,,2076_310069575,00.html

Regards,
Wayne


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## Suntower (Nov 7, 2006)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> How so – too hot, or too soft? Isn’t there a level adjustment for the studio line out?




Too soft. The out of the mixer can only do so much and without a balanced connection, I think there is a lot of signal loss.



> At this point, maybe you should start researching the manufacturers' sites. Most all include on-line manuals, so you can determine their connection capabilities and features. Here are links to some popular brands:
> 
> http://www.usa.denon.com/#start
> http://www.harmankardon.com/products/featured_products.aspx?Language=ENG&Region=USA&Country=US
> ...


I went to the Denon, HK and Marantz sites briefly. CONFUSING!

a. The literature gives me no clue as to how the 'multi-room' thing works. HK has an 'A-Buss' attachment but no piccies to show what's involved.

b. I guess I'm interested in a 'Receiver' with 2 zones. Great. They all seem to have
Tuner, CD, Phono, Aux, Video ins but not much more. That's bad. Are there any with LOTS more inputs?

c. They all seem to have 2 powered sets of outputs and then a single 'Pre' out. Fine. But then what is the 'multi-room' for? Aren't these simply more 'pre' outputs?

d. One thing my wife will care about is how easy the remote is to use. We have a cheap-o Samsung 'Home Theatre' that we ABSOLUTELY LOVE, except that the remote is -****-.

So... I was hoping to get some specific recommendations. Not that I'll run right out and act on it, but just to get me more educated.

C'mon! Vent! Spew! I want some obviously biased and partisan Talk-Radio style over the top opinions! 

Thanks for all the help so far. I think I'm getting a -little- closer!

---JC


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## Otto (May 18, 2006)

Suntower said:


> a. The literature gives me no clue as to how the 'multi-room' thing works. HK has an 'A-Buss' attachment but no piccies to show what's involved.
> 
> c. They all seem to have 2 powered sets of outputs and then a single 'Pre' out. Fine. But then what is the 'multi-room' for? Aren't these simply more 'pre' outputs?


"Most" current-day receivers offer seven powered outputs. Normally, these would be used to power your home theater speakers: two mains, one center, two surrounds and two back (though a lot of people don't use these "back" speakers).

At the same time, these receivers offer preamp outputs for the same seven outputs, in case you want to step up to an outboard amp for whatever reason.

Some receivers reassign channels 6 and 7 (the frequently-unused "back" speakers) to "Zone 2". Some receivers also allow the user to reassign channels 6 and 7 to the front L/R outputs (such that they are just a copy) so that the main speakers can be "bi-amped". You'd want to to the remap-to-zone-2 thing. There may also be a dedicated "Zone 2" preamp output, and I think it would be a stereo pair.

So, one way or another, you'll be able to get a Zone 2 going; it just depends on the particulars of the receiver that will determine how you'll have to set it up. I only have direct experience with the Outlaw 990 and the Cary Cinema 11, as far as Zone 2 setup goes. Both have very similar and simple set up for Zone 2 -- it's pretty much just selecting an input and adjusting volume. While receivers have the actual power to drive speakers, and some remapping abilities, I'd suspect that their Zone 2 set ups are also rather simple in comparison to the complement of the receiver's feature set.

I don't know about HK's "A-Buss" thing in particular.



> b. I guess I'm interested in a 'Receiver' with 2 zones. Great. They all seem to have
> Tuner, CD, Phono, Aux, Video ins but not much more. That's bad. Are there any with LOTS more inputs?


A quick look at the Denon AVR-2307CI ($799) indicates that it has 10 "Analog Audio Inputs, Incl. Tuner". It also has two digital coax inputs and four digital optical inputs. It will do 5.1 and a two channel independent zone.

The Yamaha RX-V1700 appears to list for $1299, but I'm sure you could find it for less. It says it has "zone control functions" and appears to control three zones, but I think only Zone 2 would be powered (i.e., you'd need another external amp to run Zone 3). Still, if three-zone controllability appeals to you, this might be a good one. It appears to have six analog inputs, not including the tuner -- so I guess you could count that as seven.

So there are a couple that I _think_ could work for you. Now, as to the absolute details of how the Zone 2 is implemented, and other comparisons -- it might be hard to get an average user to be able to comment because most of us don't have in-depth experience with a large cross-section of products. Yeah, I have experience with a few, and Wayne a few others, and so on, but it would be hard for me to make an accurate recommendation simply because I don't have all the data. If you're interested in an Outlaw 990 (preamp only, no amplifiers), PM me. It has two zones, phono input and a slew of "other" digital and analog inputs. I can talk about the 990 quite a bit!



> d. One thing my wife will care about is how easy the remote is to use. We have a cheap-o Samsung 'Home Theatre' that we ABSOLUTELY LOVE, except that the remote is -****-.


Well, I've had good luck with my Harmony 890. Universal is another popular remote vendor, but I don't really have any experience with them. The 890 is a nice unit that is 99% user customizable. My wife never complains about it being junky or not working. One "Activity" selection will set up everything she needs to "Watch TV" or "Watch a DVD" or "Listen to Sirius". I'm sure a Universal could do similar stuff. It's RF based, so it works everywhere. Check the 890 against the Universal RG-based remote and pick the one you like better.



> So... I was hoping to get some specific recommendations. Not that I'll run right out and act on it, but just to get me more educated.
> 
> C'mon! Vent! Spew! I want some obviously biased and partisan Talk-Radio style over the top opinions! JC


Well, I'll never again buy anything that says "SONY" on it, so there's a strong opinion! Really, though, there's so much good stuff out there that you'll never be able to research it all. Most of the time I like to do enough research to get to the point where I think I know what I'm getting into, and then just go for it. If it doesn't work out down the line, or has quirks that I find I can't live with, I'll sell it and move on. Buy used; you'll save lots of money and I find that audio components are, for the most part, well taken care of by their owners. Look for "for sale" ads on sites like this one, and check on AudiogoN for audio-specific ads and auctions. I've generally had good luck with it, but I think that you'd be taking a greater risk on eBay.

That's it for now.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> Too soft. The out of the mixer can only do so much and without a balanced connection, I think there is a lot of signal loss.


 The little Behringer mixer I showed above should be able to boost the signal for you.



> a. The literature gives me no clue as to how the 'multi-room' thing works. HK has an 'A-Buss' attachment but no piccies to show what's involved.


I’d skip the literature and go directly to the manuals. They explain how features like the multi-zone will work, and how to use them.



> They all seem to have
> Tuner, CD, Phono, Aux, Video ins but not much more. That's bad. Are there any with LOTS more inputs?


Sure, but I believe you said you wanted “cheap.” Typically the higher-end models are the ones with lots of inputs, and those aren’t cheap.



> One thing my wife will care about is how easy the remote is to use. We have a cheap-o Samsung 'Home Theatre' that we ABSOLUTELY LOVE, except that the remote is -****-.


Once again, the most flexible (read programmable) remotes come with the more expensive receivers. The ones that come with the cheap models aren’t nearly as good. Of course, you can go the aftermarket remote route Otto mentioned, but – more money...

Then there is the multi-zone issue. From your first post:


> So... I guess I'm looking for some sort of 'control center' receiver. Something CHEAP where I can route at least 8 sources to at least 5 sets of speakers (some of which are self-powered and some of which are cordless). I currently have 6 sets of speakers in various spots. Two powered by 'the stereo' receiver. One set is linked to the DAW. Two are cordless and get sourced by computers for MP3 listening.


It’s really hard to determine exactly what your multi-zone needs are, based on that, but if it involves more unamplified speakers than you can connect to the receiver, then you’ll need additional amplification. Of course, that’s not free.

Basically, it looks to me like your functional requirements and "cheap" are in dire conflict with each other! By the way, you haven’t told us what your idea of “cheap” is, so we really don’t have much to go on. What is your budget, anyway?



> C'mon! Vent! Spew! I want some obviously biased and partisan Talk-Radio style over the top opinions!


I did a lot of research a year of so ago on mid-line receivers, trying to help some “newbie” friends make the leap from their 1970s stereo system to surround sound. Being newbies, I felt the important issues for them was something that was as user-friendly as possible. After plodding through numerous on-line manuals, I decided that the Yamaha RX-V1600 best fit the bill. It was the lowest-level model that had a good, flexible remote that ran macros and was fully programmable (of course, this isn’t an issue if you go with an after-market remote; if that’s the route you’re going you can ignore my further comments on stock remotes). 

Equally important, the manual was easy to follow and understand. This can’t be overstated, since even bottom-of-the-line 5.1 receivers these days are so complicated they require 100-page manuals. 

For solid runners up, Pioneer and Denon models in the same price range as the Yamaha looked good as well, as far as the above-stated criterion was concerned. 

A couple of concerns with Denon, though. I’d be wary of their remotes with electroluminecent displays. The screen is easy to break if you drop it, and I’ve heard complaints that such displays have a stiff appetite for batteries. And, in my experience, Denon’s customer service is abysmal. So if you buy one, be sure and get it from a reputable dealer you can depend on, since they’ll go to bat for you.

I nixed Marantz because their remotes appear to be really tedious to program, and overall not as user-friendly as some of the others, and Harmon Kardon because their manuals are perfectly dreadful.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Suntower (Nov 7, 2006)

Just wanted to say 'Thanks' for the help. I just had a new cast put on and I can type even LESS than before.  I'll have more questions as soon as the percocets wear off. Weeee!

Cheers,

---JC


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## Suntower (Nov 7, 2006)

Hi, I'm back... My hand has required several surgeries so it's been ROUGH typing. (Whatever happened to all that speech recognition ****?  )

Here is a link to a piccie of all the devices. http://www.suntowermusic.com/hometheatre1.jpg
1. By 'cheap' I mean between $500-1000.

2. Ideally, I'd like a Lord Of The Rings style remote that would control ALL the devices that can be controlled. And I need TWO of these. They should ideally be able to operate up to 100 ft. This is KEY. I need to be able to be, say in my studio room at one end of the house and route the CD player into the studio feed. Or, route the Studio Output to the main living room speakers. If it could control the TV and DVD as well, that would be tres cool, but by far the most important thing is routing audio signals.

I'd sacrifice features for ease of use on the remote. It doesn't matter if the thing delivers pizza and tells yer fortune---if my wife can't figure it out, we're screwed. If they have 'macros' or 'presets' something now where I can make various '1-button' tasks that would be the ultimate.

3. AFA 'Zones' I don't know enough to know what to ask about. Basically, I'd like my wife to be able to be on the patio, grab the remote, select an FM station or MP3 playing in iTunes on her computer and route the signal to the patio speakers or the garage speakers. Simultaneously, -I- would like to use my remote to do what I was saying above.
QUESTION: Does a 'zone' refer to a set of speakers? Or does it (as I hope) refer to 'multi-tasking', ie. the Receiver can route two signals independently---both source and destination.

Does this help narrow the field or am I asking for the moon?

THANKS AGAIN!

---JC


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

You won’t have any problem finding enough inputs in that price range, but be prepared that not all of them will be labeled according to your input sources. For instance, you’re not going to find a receiver with a so-called “computer server” input.  You’ll have to be content to use a VCR input, or something like that.

You’re probably going to have to push to the top end of your price range to find a receiver with a remote that will run macros (a feature you _definitely_ want). Even then, you’re going to have to buy the second remote separately – receivers don’t come with dual full-function remotes. This will probably cost you over $100, unless you are able to dig a used one up on eBay.



> Ideally, I'd like a Lord Of The Rings style remote that would control ALL the devices that can be controlled. They should ideally be able to operate up to 100 ft. This is KEY.


The learning capability won’t be a problem – just make sure it has a fully programmable learning function – i.e., where you can “teach” the remote commands button by button from your source remotes - not just a programmable code. This is important because the manual will only have codes for current- and recent-model source components. If you add a new component several years down the road, you might not have a programmable code for it. 

Plus, you’ll need the full learning function if you have any components that are not likely to have built-in codes. That remote controlling of the computer you mentioned – if your computer is remote controllable, I doubt any receiver’s remote is going to have any built-in codes for something like that.

If by “up to 100 ft.” you mean “through walls from one end of the house to the other,” we have a problem. That will require an RF remote controller, and no stock receiver that I know of has that feature – at least not in this price range. You’ll have to get some kind of outboard IR/RF converter rig. Alternately, you could wire in IR repeaters – it might be pretty easy, as many receivers in at least the upper end of you price range (which is all I looked into) have rear-panel inputs for external remote sensors. If not, you can get after market IR repeaters from companies like Xantech.



> QUESTION: Does a 'zone' refer to a set of speakers? Or does it (as I hope) refer to 'multi-tasking', ie. the Receiver can route two signals independently---both source and destination.


“Zone” typically refers to a dedicated secondary output. If the receiver is 3-zone, it will have two such outputs. Some receivers have only pre-amp outs for the secondary zones, which require separate amplifiers for those speakers, or on-board speaker terminals for them (i.e., the receiver supplies the power). Some receivers have a combination of the two.

As to whether or not the secondary zones can deliver audio from a separate source from the one being used in the main zone, that depends on the receiver’s capabilities. Check an on-line manual to make sure the receiver you’re interested in has the secondary zone capabilities you need before you plunk down your money.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Suntower (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks again. Getting closer every time.  

Questiones Du Jour... 

1. OK, if an RF remote is what is needed, then I'll get the wife to pay for 'em out of her golf money.  But just to clarify, these -are- available and -do- 'go through walls', right? The remote is really a key requirement.

2. So the 'zones' are 'secondary outputs' and generally are simply pre-amp outs but no power, right? That's totally fine. But what is the standard terminology which will tell me that each zone can 'deliver audio from a separate source from the one being used in the main zone'. This too is a key requirement. (The terminology in stereos ....er... 'home theatre' is very confusing to me.)

3. I don't really care if the computer can be totally remote controlled. Yeah, that would be great, but it would likely entail some sort of software like Microsoft's 'Media Center' and I ain't going there. So that's not really a problem. My wife would just set the computer to 'shuffle' and want to turn the audio on/off as need be.

Based on what you say above, I think we need:
1. (2) separate RF remotes
2. A 3-zone receiver.
3. The ability to output at least two 'sources' simultaneously, ie. sent to separate zones at the same time, via remote control.

Any more specific recommendations now? (I know I'm being a nudge. Sorry!) But I'm learning a LOT.

THANKS AGAIN!

---JC


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## Otto (May 18, 2006)

Yep, RF remotes exist and go through walls. I'm using the Harmony 890, but other manufacturers probably have some other offerings. 

I think "zones" is the correct terminology. Maybe "multi room" would be someone else's interpretation. The ones I've dealt with personally were preamp outputs, but those were on pre/pros, so there's no power available. I'm sure some receivers have preamp outs for zone 2, but some also allow you to assign channels 6 and 7 (surround back) to do multi-zone duty in the event that you are using a 5.1 system and not a 7.1 system (many people "only" go 5.1, so they allow the user to remap those two unused _amplifier_ channels to zone 2). Receivers such as that may also offer preamp outs at the same time. You'd have to read the owner's manual for the particular product.

Getting closer!


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> But what is the standard terminology which will tell me that each zone can 'deliver audio from a separate source from the one being used in the main zone'.


Generally you’ll have to check the manual to be sure, that’s the best way. Often the product literature's bullet-list of features only mentions second zones, but don’t give details on how they function. You’ll be looking in the Table of Contents for a section dedicated to the multi-zone function, and terminology like “Selecting an input source for Zone 2” or “Record out source.” Make sure you study that section and understand exactly what it can and can’t do!

For a couple of examples, take a look at these two Denon manuals

http://usa.denon.com/AVR4306_DFU.pdf
http://usa.denon.com/AVR-4308CI-E-004.pdf

Regards,
Wayne


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## Suntower (Nov 7, 2006)

Thanks! I downloaded the Yamaha RX-1600 manual and it looks suspiciously close to what I need. So... more questions (of course).

1. The manual says you need separate RF 'receivers' in each room with it's own zone. Why? I don't get what these RF devices actually do. Are they to control power amps in these rooms? How?

2. We currently have two sets of cheap-o wireless speakers. Both have remote controls. Will the expensive RF remote (like the Harmony 890) work with these? Does it have a 'learn' feature that works with pretty much -any- remote controllable device or would we need to get new wireless speakers?

THANKS!

---JC


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## Otto (May 18, 2006)

Suntower said:


> 1. The manual says you need separate RF 'receivers' in each room with it's own zone. Why? I don't get what these RF devices actually do. Are they to control power amps in these rooms? How?


Not sure about that. I'd have to look at the manual, but I'm short on time today.



> 2. We currently have two sets of cheap-o wireless speakers. Both have remote controls. Will the expensive RF remote (like the Harmony 890) work with these? Does it have a 'learn' feature that works with pretty much -any- remote controllable device or would we need to get new wireless speakers?


If the speakers are remote controlled via IR, then the Harmony should be able to do it. It definitely has a "learn" function. In general, if you start to learn a "new device" that isn't immediately or obviously listed in its database, it will ask "are you trying to add an XYZ device?" after you enter three commands or so. I've had it get those right for relatively obscure devices like the Chase RLC-1 and the Sirius Sportster receiver. If it does not find it in the database at all, you can still add your own thing and "learn" all the commands manually. While I have not tried this with every device out there, I have not run into any device that was not controllable with the 890 (IR-based devices, of coruse).


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Suntower said:


> 1. The manual says you need separate RF 'receivers' in each room with it's own zone. Why? I don't get what these RF devices actually do. Are they to control power amps in these rooms? How?


What page of the manual? Sure would save us some time.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Suntower (Nov 7, 2006)

Boy, you guys really -are- into this stuff! 

Sorry, I'm typing 1-hand and I thought this was a general concept; not product specific.

See the diagram on pg 104 in 2nd room and 3rd room.

Thanks,

---JC




Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> What page of the manual? Sure would save us some time.
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne


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