# Amplifier or Receiver upgrade



## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

I normally do not listen at reference level more like low or moderate but I was wondering if having an amp like Emotiva 5 channel UPA 500 would be a good investment or not or should I just upgrade the receiver to maybe the Onkyo 135 watts TX NR 818 model and do without the amp?

I have a Denon 75 watt receiver
Profficient in ceiling speakers 5.1 
HSU VTF3 MK4 Sub


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## Wardsweb (Apr 2, 2010)

Personally I think if you do not have main speakers that can reproduce a reference or audiophile grade signal, then there isn't much need to have an amplifier that can. Now having said that, a bigger amp will play louder but that isn't the real benefit. More power gives you more head room available for transients ( high amplitude, short-duration) sounds like explosions and crashes. 

The next step from just a receiver would be to add an amplifer just for your mains and let the receiver power everything else.


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

IMO, unless you're currently noticing distortion and/or you want to be able to safely drive your speakers harder/louder, there's no reason to replace your current AVR.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

What model of Profficient in ceiling speakers do you have? According to their website they have several ranging form poor quality to fairly good. Your Denon will likely only output 55watts per channel if its rated to do 75watts so even their lower end speakers could benefit from more power all channels driven.


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

The difference between 75w and 125w is <3db. I think you are focused in the wrong place.

What problem are you trying to solve? What makes you believe that the amplifier is involved in this problem?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

JerryLove said:


> The difference between 75w and 125w is <3db.


True but there is more to it than that you also have to consider the efficiency and the ohms rating of the speakers. If the receiver is rated to do 75watts its likely outputting much less all channels driven.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> What model of Profficient in ceiling speakers do you have? According to their website they have several ranging form poor quality to fairly good. Your Denon will likely only output 55watts per channel if its rated to do 75watts so even their lower end speakers could benefit from more power all channels driven.


Here are the speaker specs for C605 for Left, Right and Surrounds

Description 6½" Two-Way 
Ceiling Speakers 
Unit of Measure Pair 
Woofers 6½" Polypropylene 
Tweeters Fixed ¾" Soft Dome 
Power Handling 75 Watts 
Frequency Response 45Hz-20kHz 
Sensitivity 90dB 1W/
Impedance 8 Ω 
Dimensions Diameter 9¼" x Depth 35⁄8" 
Cut Out Dimesions Diameter 8¼" 
Warranty 10-Year Limited


Here are the specs for Center C660 
6 1/2 inch 
125 WATTS
Frequency Response 35 hz-22khz
Sensitivity 92db
Impedance 8 ohms


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

JerryLove said:


> The difference between 75w and 125w is <3db. I think you are focused in the wrong place.
> 
> What problem are you trying to solve? What makes you believe that the amplifier is involved in this problem?


I don't really need to play louder I was wondering if an amp would give cleaner sound.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yes, it could very well improve the sound given you may have distortion in your current system due to some lack of power however getting a UAP5 is overkill although very nice  Does your Denon have multi channel pre outs? If not then you would not be able to use an external amp and a replacement receiver like the Onkyo 818 would be very beneficial given it has many other very nice features including XT32.


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## koyaan (Mar 2, 2010)

As your speakers max out at 75 watts, I don't think adding a more powerful amp , or reciever,will make a big difference unless your getting distortion now.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

koyaan said:


> As your speakers max out at 75 watts, I don't think adding a more powerful amp , or reciever,will make a big difference unless your getting distortion now.


So if I udgrade to an avr that does say 135 watts (on paper) and my speakers only do 75 watts if I crank/not crank the volume will the speakers blow?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Not very likely, You are more likely to cause damage to speakers by sending a distorted signal to them than if its slightly over powered. That said yes too much power can blow them but its far less a possibility. 
As I said before your receiver is not going to be able to output even close to 75watts if thats what it is rated to do in its specifications.


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## JerryLove (Dec 5, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> True but there is more to it than that you also have to consider the efficiency and the ohms rating of the speakers. If the receiver is rated to do 75watts its likely outputting much less all channels driven.


 That doesn't actually matter. If all else is equal, he's still less than +3db.

And it may be less than that. Denon is at least as good a name as Onkyo; perhaps better (as Onkyo is Integra's budget brand). So it's possible that the limits on the power-supply's ability to handle all channels, or scale with ohm lode will be made worse, not better, by a move to the Onkyo.



asere said:


> I don't really need to play louder I was wondering if an amp would give cleaner sound.


 Properly built amps come in two varieties: Sufficient and insufficient. 

My reccomendation? Emotiva has a return policy. Order it and see if you like it. If not, send it back. (you did verify that you have preamp outs on your Denon, yes?)


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

JerryLove said:


> That doesn't actually matter. If all else is equal, he's still less than +3db.
> 
> And it may be less than that. Denon is at least as good a name as Onkyo; perhaps better (as Onkyo is Integra's budget brand). So it's possible that the limits on the power-supply's ability to handle all channels, or scale with ohm lode will be made worse, not better, by a move to the Onkyo.
> 
> ...


No pre outs on my Denon. That's why I'm thinking of getting a receiver like Onkyo tx nr818 and skip the amp.


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## Wardsweb (Apr 2, 2010)

asere said:


> No pre outs on my Denon. That's why I'm thinking of getting a receiver like Onkyo tx nr818 and skip the amp.


Just to give you an option. If you like your Denon and it works for you except for some higher power for your mains. You can get around no pre outs (line level) with some speaker wire, two RCA jacks and four resistors. You make a divider network. The speaker wires that now goes to your main speakers, goes to the input of this network. The RCA outs go to your new amp and your new amp now drives your main speakers.

You get to choose; a new receiver or your receiver with an additional amp.

Here is a picture to show what I'm talking about. I made this a few years ago.


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

How old is your current receiver and does it have any room correction? The biggest benefit I could see for you would be getting a receiver with better room correction processing, the NR818 you suggest has the good stuff (XT32).

I really do not see more amplifier power helping you out. Denons make good power, enough for much more demanding speakers than puny in-walls. Especially if you don't crank it up much.


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## asere (Dec 7, 2011)

fusseli said:


> How old is your current receiver and does it have any room correction? The biggest benefit I could see for you would be getting a receiver with better room correction processing, the NR818 you suggest has the good stuff (XT32).
> 
> I really do not see more amplifier power helping you out. Denons make good power, enough for much more demanding speakers than puny in-walls. Especially if you don't crank it up much.


My receiver is a 2010 with only multeq.


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## Owen Bartley (Oct 18, 2006)

With a receiver only 2 years old, what about looking into the speakers as the source of any problems? I'm not familiar with the ones you own, but maybe an upgraded front stage would make a big difference. Even if you could get the front stage out of the ceiling and into the wall, or replace with boxed speakers that you can locate optimally for imaging, clarity, room response, etc., you'd probably be a step ahead.


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