# Crown equevelant or upgrade to the Behringer a500



## Guest

I didn't want to hijack the other thread of crown questions as it seemed that the amps in question were rated for a lot more power then I'm looking for.

What Crown amp would be closest to the Behringer A500? Also, do XLR to RCA cables work well?

I just want a good quality external amp to drive these. https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=379

With the current Crown sale going on, it seems like that would be a easy choice, but their rated amps seem much higher and my speakers are only rated for 125W RMS / 300 peak.


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## tcarcio

Those cables work fine if they are decent quality. www.monoprice.com has good cables. As far as power goes dont worry to much if the amp has more then you need. You can still use the amp but just use common sense and don't overdrive your speakers. I have surrounds rated for 100w and I have been useing amps with 300w per channel for 2 years without issue. The Crown XLS 202 should work well for you and they are selling pretty cheap now.


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## Lucky7!

Generic said:


> I didn't want to hijack the other thread of crown questions as it seemed that the amps in question were rated for a lot more power then I'm looking for.
> 
> What Crown amp would be closest to the Behringer A500?


The smallest, the XLS202, but even that exceeds the A500's specs by quite a bit.


Generic said:


> Also, do XLR to RCA cables work well?


Yes.



Generic said:


> I just want a good quality external amp to drive these. https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=379
> 
> With the current Crown sale going on, it seems like that would be a easy choice, but their rated amps seem much higher and my speakers are only rated for 125W RMS / 300 peak.


The thing that is most likely to damage speakers is you, not the amp. When speakers are starting to be overdriven, they will sound worse than in normal use. When that happens, back off a bit. Speakers do not 'blow' like a fuse with a brief overload, usually taking quite a bit of abuse before permanent damage.

I ran a set of 15W rated vintage Celestion speakers on a variety of high power pro amps in my workshop for years with no damage, because I was sensible with them. If you do the same, you'll be fine, and more power than needed is seldom a problem; underpowered distorting amps are much more likely to be.


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## JoeESP9

I bought a Crown XLS402 on a recommendation. Tomorrow I'll be ordering another. They will be bridged and connected to my TL subs. I've had the one for a month now and I highly recommend it. Buying a second is the highest recommendation I can give.

As A9X has said, you will very rarely if ever blow a speaker because of too much power. It's insufficient power that does the speaker blowing. Usually because of amplifier clipping. 

Speaker power ratings are for continuous power. In a home situation you will probably never push any speaker that hard. In general more power is always better. An amp that has plenty of power in reserve will always sound better than one that's working hard.

If you think the XLS402 is too powerful for your speakers (I don't) get the XLS202 (200WPC @ 8 Ohms). B&H Photo has them in stock for $159.95 with free shipping.

B&H Photo has the XLS402 (300WPC @ 8 Ohms) in stock for $199.95 with free shipping. 

Crown has a 3 year no questions asked warranty on the XLS series amplifiers.

Either of these amps is a better buy than the Behringer A500.

A bridged XLS402 is rated at 900W @ 8 Ohms and 1140 W @ 4 Ohms.

$400 for a pair is worth thinking about for all you power hungry folks like me.:R

I'm using male XLR to female RCA adaptors purchased when I bought the amp. they were $14.78 for two.
This raised the total cost to $214.73.


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## bambino

More power!:flex:


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## Guest

I knew power reserves were a good thing, but I didn't realize a lot more was good.

So, where you guys have the gain on the crown amps? I read mixed suggestions/setup for external amps.

Do you have the gain all the way up, half way up? I think ideal is all the way up, and control the volume with the pre-amp, but I guess they don't all sound as clean all the way up, or so I've read.


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## bambino

I'm not sure if there is a set guidline so when mine come this week i'm gonna start at half way and see what happens. I don't think it should be necessary to turn the gain pots all the way up.:dontknow:


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## Lucky7!

Generic said:


> I knew power reserves were a good thing, but I didn't realize a lot more was good.


Amps are often clipping a lot more than people realise. Though the link below id for music, HT can often have similar or greater requirements for dynamic range.
http://www.cordellaudio.com/rmaf/workshop5.shtml



Generic said:


> So, where you guys have the gain on the crown amps? I read mixed suggestions/setup for external amps.
> 
> Do you have the gain all the way up, half way up? I think ideal is all the way up, and control the volume with the pre-amp, but I guess they don't all sound as clean all the way up, or so I've read.


I don't use Crown amps, mainly Yamaha and Quest, but typically I start with the attenuator maxed and adjust if necessary.


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## tcarcio

Usually you just turn them all the way up and adjust from your reciever but I find it brings up the noise floor and so I have mine set at about 3/4. I have 3 Crowns a Behringer and a Mackie and they all work well in that setting. but as alway's YMMV.


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## JoeESP9

Input gain controls on power amplifiers are usually a set and forget thing. The Crown manual has specific instructions for setting the gain trim pots. 

The one XLS402 I currently have has the gain controls at the 3 o'clock position. I doubt if this will change when I get the other one. In other words they will both be set at the 3 o'clock position.

I should mention, I'm using an electronic crossover which has a variable level control for the low pass section. After setting the input level control on the Crown at the 3 o'clock position, the level control on the crossover was used to do the final level trimming.

bambino, and anyone else buying one of these Crown amps, I'm very interested in hearing your impressions and opinions on these amps.


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## salvasol

Generic said:


> So, where you guys have the gain on the crown amps? I read mixed suggestions/setup for external amps.
> 
> Do you have the gain all the way up, half way up?...


I have a Samson Servo 600, I got it instead of a Crown because it blends better with the rest of HT equipment and because it uses RCA cables instead of XLR to connect from AVR to pro amp (sometimes it necesary to get aditional things to connect AVR an pro-amp when using XLR or 1/4 cable).

Mine is all the way up.... When I calibrated the speakers I used the AVR to set the speaker level, sometimes is possible that even if you set the level at the minimum, you'll have to lower the pro-amp gain to 3/4 or 1/2 to calibrate the speakers....


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## JoeESP9

I mentioned the XLR to RCA adapters I had to purchase. They plug into the amp and the RCA cables plug into them. 

My system is composed of so many different brands matching the looks just wasn't important. Furthermore, my power amps and electronic crossover are placed close to my front speakers. I run a long IC from my preamp to the crossover so I can use short speaker cables. They are DH Labs Q-10 Signature if anyone's interested.

My rear speakers are bi-amplified with a Paradigm X-30 (X-30 in front also) electronic crossover, Hafler DH-200 and an Adcom GFA-545. As with my front speakers the crossover and amps are close to the speakers. I use DH Labs T-14 speaker cable for them.

The long IC's for front and rear are DH Lab's BL-1. The front is 7 Meters long, the rear is 4.


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## lsiberian

This isn't a fair contest. The Crown is 50 percent of manufacturer price and competes with the EP series. The choice is obvious go with the Crown.


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## JoeESP9

That's why I'm ordering another XLS402 tomorrow.
$214.73 complete. With two Male XLR to Female RCA adapters and free shipping.

And don't forget, a three year unconditional transferable warranty.


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## bambino

Where are you ordering from joe that you get the cables too, not fair.:hissyfit:


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## tcarcio

Anyone know of why some 402's are plain 402's and some are called 402d's. I cannot find any that are marked with the D??? Anyone know??


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## tcarcio

Also Musicians friend no longer has them but this place still does as of now...http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=...ttp://www.fullcompass.com/product/315691.html


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Generic said:


> So, where you guys have the gain on the crown amps?


I’d say start by gain-matching the Crown amp to your current receiver’s internal amp. Connect the amp between one channel of the receiver and the speaker; start with the amp’s gain control all the way down. Leave the other speaker connected directly to the receiver. 

Pan your balance control to the speaker connected directly to the receiver, play a pink noise signal, and take a reading with your SPL meter. Get the volume up to somewhere in the 75-80 dB range.

Then pan the balance control over to the channel connected to the new amp. Increase the amp’s gain until the test tone gets the same SPL reading as the other speaker. If you can’t get a gain match with the gains full open, then you have a problem...

This should give you a good starting place for the amp’s gain settings; hopefully they will be below max. 

From here you might disconnect all speakers, and run up the receiver’s volume control to something near maximum. You should be able to drive the amp’s input signal LED’s into clipping. If not, increase the gains until you get the clip lights.

Anyway – this should get you started in the right direction.







​

Regards,
Wayne


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## bambino

tcarcio said:


> Anyone know of why some 402's are plain 402's and some are called 402d's. I cannot find any that are marked with the D??? Anyone know??


I noticed that on Amazon with the 802's. The ones with the D had more power when bridged if i remember correctly.


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## JoeESP9

The one I already have is a D Model and rated to run bridged into 4 Ohms. AFAIK the non-D Models are not rated to work at 4 Ohms bridged. The one I ordered Monday is a D Model according to the bill from B&H.


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## JoeESP9

bambino said:


> Where are you ordering from joe that you get the cables too, not fair.:hissyfit:


I ordered from B&H Photo. I added two Male XLR to Female RCA adapters to the order this time as well as last time. Once again free shipping was included.


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## tcarcio

JoeESP9 said:


> The one I already have is a D Model and rated to run bridged into 4 Ohms. AFAIK the non-D Models are not rated to work at 4 Ohms bridged. The one I ordered Monday is a D Model according to the bill from B&H.


Does it have a D on it or is it just in the serial number?


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## tcarcio

JoeESP9 ,Why didn't you order them from the link I put up to Full Compass? You would have saved $30.:huh:


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## Guest

Anyone know how long the sale is going to last or why they are even so cheap? I was going to order one this weekend and I had car woes on the way to work today. Hopefully its nothing serious, but if anyone has information on a end date on the sale, please share it.


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## tcarcio

Well I think they will keep selling them at this price until they are out of stock. The new models of the XLS will take over and it will get harder to find these anymore. I have already seen one site say the older XLS has been discontinued.


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## bambino

On PE's website they show they are discontinued.:crying:


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## Guest

I ordered the Crown XLS402. I almost wussed out and got the 202, but I was looking at a $200 A500, so I just went for it. I was going to build a sub first, but oh well. It will get done later.

Thanks for the tips and advise guys.


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## bambino

Build quality is exellent on these amps your gonna love it.:T


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## JoeESP9

My second one came yesterday. You can't really ask for much more than order on Monday afternoon at 2:30 and get delivery on Wednesday at 4:00.

tcarcio:
It would have been $15 saved. I was concerned that there might be an out of stock issue. B&H had assured me they had them in stock. As it was it came with no power cord. I notified B&H and they're shipping one. It says XLS402D on the box. There is no D in the Serial Numbers. Mine are 8500360139 and 8500360142. I like that the numbers are quite close. 

Generic:
I think they are trying to get rid of all current stock. There is a new series replacing them. The new series is all Class D.

There is a chart printed on the box that lists power ratings at various loads. AFAIK the box chart for non-D Models doesn't give 4 Ohm bridged ratings. Both of my boxes give power ratings for 4 Ohm bridged operation for the entire XLS series.

So here's the skinny;
I already had the other one powering my TL subs. It's been doing an excellent job. The bass is seemingly effortless. Although my TL's are reasonably efficient, going from 100WPC to 300WPC is an improvement even at the same in room levels. I can imagine the Crown saying "Is that all you got? Bring it on. I can handle it.". It can and it does.

I bought the second one so I could bridge both and put one on each sub.Yesterday I didn't feel like disconnecting and rewiring everything. I pulled my tube amps from my front main (Acoustat Spectra 22's) ESL's and inserted the new Crown. I played a few things but went to bed with everything on. 

Got up this morning and played some background music to try rush break in. If you don't believe in break in, I don't care. As I'm typing this I'm watching the clip lights dance on the new one (on my ESL's). No clipping evident on the one driving my subs. I'm going to leave things this way for a few days. Eventually both will be run in bridged mode on my subs. I want to listen to my stats on some SS gear for a while. I'll have more sound impressions later.


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## tcarcio

JoeESP9 said:


> My second one came yesterday. You can't really ask for much more than order on Monday afternoon at 2:30 and get delivery on Wednesday at 4:00.
> 
> tcarcio:
> It would have been $15 saved. I was concerned that there might be an out of stock issue. B&H had assured me they had them in stock. As it was it came with no power cord. I notified B&H and they're shipping one. It says XLS402D on the box. There is no D in the Serial Numbers. Mine are 8500360139 and 8500360142. I like that the numbers are quite close.
> 
> Generic:
> I think they are trying to get rid of all current stock. There is a new series replacing them. The new series is all Class D.
> 
> There is a chart printed on the box that lists power ratings at various loads. AFAIK the box chart for non-D Models doesn't give 4 Ohm bridged ratings. Both of my boxes give power ratings for 4 Ohm bridged operation for the entire XLS series.
> 
> So here's the skinny;
> I already had the other one powering my TL subs. It's been doing an excellent job. The bass is seemingly effortless. Although my TL's are reasonably efficient, going from 100WPC to 300WPC is an improvement even at the same in room levels. I can imagine the Crown saying "Is that all you got? Bring it on. I can handle it.". It can and it does.
> 
> I bought the second one so I could bridge both and put one on each sub.Yesterday I didn't feel like disconnecting and rewiring everything. I pulled my tube amps from my front main (Acoustat Spectra 22's) ESL's and inserted the new Crown. I played a few things but went to bed with everything on.
> 
> Got up this morning and played some background music to try rush break in. If you don't believe in break in, I don't care. As I'm typing this I'm watching the clip lights dance on the new one (on my ESL's). No clipping evident on the one driving my subs. I'm going to leave things this way for a few days. Eventually both will be run in bridged mode on my subs. I want to listen to my stats on some SS gear for a while. I'll have more sound impressions later.


Well as long as you got what you want then $15 bucks is nothing. I have the 402 and have been useing it for about a year now and I have had 0 issues. Congrats on your deal.:clap:


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## bambino

Hello,
I also got 2 so that i could bridge them, i got the 802's. Who says 1600 watts is too much for one sub?:heehee: Can't wait to see what they'll do.:dumbcrazy:


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## Coytee

Generic said:


> I knew power reserves were a good thing, but I didn't realize a lot more was good.
> 
> So, where you guys have the gain on the crown amps? I read mixed suggestions/setup for external amps.
> 
> Do you have the gain all the way up, half way up? I think ideal is all the way up, and control the volume with the pre-amp, but I guess they don't all sound as clean all the way up, or so I've read.


I've not finished the thread to see if others have answered this but this is what I've done.

I've got a pair of Crown K2's, biamping (vertically) a large pair of 2-way horns. When I first got the K2's, I had their gains maxed and discovered I was using very little of my volume knob. (speakers are something like 108 db/1-watt)

I also realized I was not driving the input section of my active crossover (Electrovoice Dx38) very hard and had some audible hiss.

I started at the speaker and worked backward. I had the K2's (only) turned on. I turned the gains from 100% down to where I could not hear any hiss from the speaker when sitting on the floor, probably 5' away from them. I then turned the Dx on and then the preamp. I adjusted those the same way. Now, at this setting, I can put my preamp on full volume and with nothing playing, have no discernable hiss anywhere. 

If I want to work outside and step up the volume some, I can simply turn the gains up.

Over the couple years of doing this, I've now gravitated towards putting my Crowns at about 12:00 (even lower than mentioned above) for daily listening. This allows me to drive the input section of my Dx to full input and as I understand it, maximize the signal/noise ratio in it.


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## Guest

Woot, Crown XLS 402D amp is in. Plugged her up. She sounds nice. Plays with lots of authority and low distortion. Seems to have a bit more treble and bass. Sounds good for sure.


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## JoeESP9

I've been running the two XLS402's I recently bought. My original intention was to bridge them and use them strictly for my subs operating from 85Hz down. When I got the second one I decided to do some maintenance on my tube mono blocks. So I pulled them and ordered new output tubes for them. In the meantime I'm using the second Crown to drive my ESL's.

After giving it a few days to break in I've been exercising it hard for the last couple of days. It seems to be a bit more forward in the mid-range than my tubes. The highs are not as sweet sounding but not harsh in any way. If I didn't have tubes to go back to I could easily live with this driving my "stats". 

Earlier this evening I was listening to The Firebird, Telarc CD-80039 The drum thwacks were causing the clip lights to blink. I pulled out my Rat Shack SPL meter and took some measurements. With the meter set on the 100dB scale and set to slow the needle was bouncing off the stop just past the +6dB point.This was measured at about 1 meter.

I heard no signs of distress or distortion. I hadn't realized how loud it was until I saw the clip lights blinking. 

For $200 bucks each these amps have to go on the best buy list.


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## bambino

I agree, you simply cannot beat that deal with a stick. I'm still tossed on wheather or not to get a couple more just to have around in case.:whistling:


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## JoeESP9

This is an attempt to write a review of the Crown XLS402.

First some background. My system (2 channel) is bi-amplified. I have been using a heavily modified pair of Dynaco MK-III's. to drive my ESL's (only the transformers are left from the MK-III's). My electronic crossover is set at 80Hz. My TL subs (PVC sewer pipe) were, I thought working and sounding just fine (more on this later). A heavily modified Hafler DH-200 was powering them. 

I had never considered a “Pro” amp. Then I read a post that Buddha on the Stereophile forum had written. He was/is using a XLS802 to drive a pair of the bigger Apogees. He said he was very impressed with the sound. Apogee ribbons present some of the most difficult loads any amp will ever see. Using Krell's with them at the shows made a name for both companies. The Krells they were using were original Krell Class A amps.

The KSA-200 doubled up in power as the load was halved. So the KSA-200 was capable of producing 1600 Watts continuous into a 2 Ohm load. Many of Apogee's speakers were 2 Ohm loads. The Scintilla could be strapped for 1 or 2 Ohms and is said to sound better at 1 Ohm. 

So, I figured that any amp that could do a good job driving Apooge's was worth looking into. Me being a cheapskate I went for the XLS402. It's second from the bottom and the specs say it does 300WPC/8 Ohms, 450WPC/4 Ohms. The $199 price tag with free shipping wouldn't hurt my retired wallet too much. 

I ordered one from B&H Photo on a Monday afternoon UPS delivered it on Wednesday.
So, I pull the Hafler connect up the Crown and give it a quick listen. It sounded okay but a little bass shy. No problem, Buddha did say they needed to be broken in. My main system is on when I'm home and awake. I left the Crown powered up for a week doing duty whenever the system was in use. The Bass smoothed out and now seems to sound richer than the Hafler. The two main differences are what sounds like another half octave of Bass and a feeling of effortless unlimited power. 450 Watts into a 12” TL can go loud quickly and easily. At this point I'd used the Crown to drive only my subs. That's when I decided to get another and bridge them for some real reserves for bass power.

Placed an order with B&H on a Monday. The amp arrived on Wednesday. (Ya gotta' love fast service). My tube mono's were due for some maintenance. So they go to the test bench and Crown number two gets attached to my “stats”. My initial response was okay but a bit underwhelming. Fast forward a week or so. The new one has been cooking and is ready for a real listen. I put on James Hunter, People Gonna Talk. This sounds like a minimal recording done with all of them in the studio at the same time. The first song comes on and Holy laser diodes, he's right over there. Next up is Jacintha here's To Ben. This had Jacintha standing front and center two feet in front of my speakers. The forty feet of room behind my speakers was still there. Yeah I was pulling out all the demo quality recordings. Including a promotional JBL produced double LP that has marvelous sound. Everything I played sounded really good with a nice slightly forward sound and very extended highs. 

My impressions are that I'm hearing a slightly more forward mid-range and greater extension in the highs. The sound seems to come from a point slightly in front of my speakers. My tubes sound was mostly at the speaker plane and behind. The Crown seems to have as much depth but starts further in front of my speakers. I really like what I'm hearing. I still miss that glorious mid-range sweetness only tubes give. That's one of two caveats. It's one I can live with. I think.

My other caveat:
Well the fans can be noisy. I put 100 Ohm ¼ Watt resistors in the fan leads and they're quiet enough now.
caveat no more.
Buy one of these amps before Crown realizes what they've got. They could spend a few dollars for nice casework, make the fans auto variable speed and charge 3K to 4K for one of these. I am very impressed. Next I'm gonna' try one of those Class D amps Feanor (AR poster) just built. I like what he said about the mid-range. 

Still tryin' for that tube sweetness with SS.

The Crown's are keepers for sure. Currently the two are driving my front speakers and subs. I'm in no rush to re-tube and tune up my mono blocks. I can near buy the parts for one of those Class D amps for what new tubes will cost. I'm looking forward to bridging them for my subs and trying one of those 250WPC class D amps on my panels.

Mods:
If you feel the need I know you may move this post.
__________________


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## lsiberian

If you hear a forward midrange it's normally due to the lack of level matching between amps. Amps with more headroom really offer the best dynamic range and for that you definitely want to pull out orchestral high quality CDs. The kind of recordings that take full advantage of CD sound quality capability and dynamic headroom. If you ever want pro audio amps without the fan noise go for the Yamaha 2500P


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## JoeESP9

I was listening at the same levels. It was measured. I'm well aware that small level differences cause differences in the sound stage. The differences I'm hearing and mentioned are not caused by small level differences. The mid range doesn't really sound "forward". The entire sound field begins three feet closer to me than before. 

For instance: Here's To Ben, Jacintha
With tubes driving my stats she seems to be at the plane of my speakers. With the Crown driving them she seems to be standing 3 feet in front of them. This is not level dependent. It is evident at any volume.

The fan noise is now inaudible at my listening position. If I put my ears within two feet I can hear them. Not everyone may be bothered by the noise. The 100hm 1/4 Watt resistors I added were sufficient. I doubt if I could get that Yamaha for $199.


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