# The Tiger 3-way design and build thread



## lsiberian

I know many of you folks aren't familiar with many of my plans. Currently I'm boiling up some good ones.

The next pair of speakers I plan to build will be a 3-way omnipolar design. 

I've already decided on the Anarchy for the bottom driver. 

The tweeter will be using an unfaced HiFi RTI tweeter. This tweeter has incredible off-axis response.

The next choice involves the midrange.
I will probably go with the Dayton RS52AN-8. 

Now the next question is what do a I do with my spare vifa drivers. :dontknow:


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## dyohn

Ooo, you said three of my favorite words: spare, Vifa and drivers.  Whatcha got whatcha got whatcha got?? :R


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## lsiberian

dyohn said:


> Ooo, you said three of my favorite words: spare, Vifa and drivers.  Whatcha got whatcha got whatcha got?? :R


4 Vifa TC14WG49-08 drivers. 

They are good to cross with th

Vifa D25AG77-06 tweeter.

good crossed at 3khz and extension to 100hz. Beyond that I suggest a sub.


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## F1 fan

lsiberian said:


> 4 Vifa TC14WG49-08 drivers.


These are decent little mid bass units.I recently used them (along with the BC25TG15 tweets) in a pair of mini TL's,basically a clone of PMC DB1's little ATL enclosure.


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## Nismoron

Madisound's Recession Buster Mk2's built into TL's... interesting idea.


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## F1 fan

Nismoron said:


> Madisound's Recession Buster Mk2's ...


Yes sir you are correct it's the RB2.I couldn't pass it up for $60.The woofer just happens to have near identical T/S parameters to the Vifa unit used by PMC in their DB1.I already had the enclosures built several years ago but abandoned the project, so the RB seemed a perfect excuse and fit to finally finish them.


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## Nismoron

:cunning: :sneeky: :T


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## lsiberian

Ok I got the deal lined up for the Anarcy drivers. 

I got the Dayton RS dome for the midrange. Now it's on to Crossover design and planning. I'm probably going to try a passive one for fun and just to have the option.


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## dyohn

lsiberian said:


> Ok I got the deal lined up for the Anarcy drivers.
> 
> Now it's time to get a pair of midrangers.


Here's the mid I used in my last couple of projects. Ver highly recommended for both music and voice: CSS WR125


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## lsiberian

dyohn said:


> Here's the mid I used in my last couple of projects. Ver highly recommended for both music and voice: CSS WR125


You have any measurements by chance. I need to know if this can be crossed at 5khz. :T


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## dyohn

I cross mine at 7K on the top end. They are ± 3 dB from 100 Hz to 10 kHz wide-band drivers. The FR125 version is an almost true-full-range driver.


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## dyohn

By the way, I located the manufacturer's spec sheet for the FR/WR125 driver. Link Here.


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## JCD

lsiberian said:


> Ok I got the deal lined up for the Anarcy drivers.
> 
> I got the Dayton RS dome for the midrange. Now it's on to Crossover design and planning. I'm probably going to try a passive one for fun and just to have the option.


I hope so.. I did my first one recently and had fun with the whole process. I'm sure I short-cutted (is that a real word) a lot of issues, but the FR plot is flat where I crossed the mids and tweet. I'm hoping to pick up on some more issues that I may have by-passed.


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## lsiberian

I picked up 7 of these yesterday.:R

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=297-401


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## StereoClarity

How did we go from "extreme off axis response" to "Planar tweeters" ?


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## lsiberian

StereoClarity said:


> How did we go from "extreme off axis response" to "Planar tweeters" ?


I missed this post when unfaced the RTI tweeter provides excellent off-axis response.


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## lsiberian

The build has begun this will be the interior structure of the speakers. They will be inside a constraint layer composed of roofing felt. Then an exterior plywood structure will be built around the interior structure. The bracing will be significant and their will be an 3" port. 









WinISD model









Box notes was used to compute the interior the bracing is more 









Cuts were made with a circular saw connected to a shop vac to capture the nasty dust. 









Nicely stacked and cut. 









Clamps









Glue









Emerson tools straight edge 

Gluing is being done on the structure now.


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## lsiberian

Clamp setup for back gluing









Back Glued









Lots of red oak braces.


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## lsiberian

Rear braces glued. You can see there are 5 braces with around 3 inches between them. 









First side braces glued. The second will be cut once the vertical braces are glued.









A view from the side.









The snag was my glue started running really low. I'll need to get some more glue to continue with the vertical braces and the others.


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## lsiberian

Another phase of bracing done. If I had a miter saw it would be much easier, but I've made due with the circular saw. 


















Next is sealing seams and adding some extra bracing with the scrap wood.


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## lsiberian

The interior front baffles are done. 
















next up is the constraint layer damping application.


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## vann_d

I'm curious to see how you will implement this peel & seal treatment.

I'm glad you are doing extensive bracing because it looks like you are using particle board instead of MDF.


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## lsiberian

vann_d said:


> I'm curious to see how you will implement this peel & seal treatment.
> 
> I'm glad you are doing extensive bracing because it looks like you are using particle board instead of MDF.


Be curious no more. 

































constraint layer damping applied to everything but the front baffle. 

I bought the particle board a long time ago and had to use it for something. I'm not building shelves out of it. Since it's only the internal box I figured it would work fine. Especially with the oak bracing and rockwool treatment. I don't plan to buy anymore particle board and would use 3/4" ply for the internal now. 

I prefer ply to mdf or particleboard. It's just a lot tougher and lighter.


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## vann_d

lsiberian said:


> I prefer ply to mdf or particleboard. It's just a lot tougher and lighter.


Yeah, I hear you there. I liked working with it a lot better than mdf on my sub project.

What adhesive (if any) are you going to use between the peel & seal and the outer layer? Ideally you'd like a good bond like you have with the inner layer. Any way you look at it, though, you're gonna have one stiff cabinet!


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## lsiberian

vann_d said:


> Yeah, I hear you there. I liked working with it a lot better than mdf on my sub project.
> 
> What adhesive (if any) are you going to use between the peel & seal and the outer layer? Ideally you'd like a good bond like you have with the inner layer. Any way you look at it, though, you're gonna have one stiff cabinet!


PL Polyurethane construction adhesive after roughing the aluminum with 100 grit and cleaning with acetone. That's what the crazy man that told me about peal-n-seal does. I've heard his speakers are the best on the planet according to anyone who's heard them. 

I may add another layer of peel-n-seal just for good measure. The pain will be the exterior adhering anyway. 

I'll be using quarter round to help the baffle step. I could have used curved plywood, but I don't want to buy the oak for the constraint layers. If you ever try this use hot wet scissors otherwise the asphalt will start sticking. I'll also be building the amps for this later on. I got my eyes on the LM3886.


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## bambino

I just need some straitening out. Is the peel and stick on the outside of the box? then you are going to put another layer of wood over that for cosmetics? What purpose does that have if thats how you are doing it? Just never seen a box built that way if thats the case and totally curious.


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## lsiberian

bambino said:


> I just need some straitening out. Is the peel and stick on the outside of the box? then you are going to put another layer of wood over that for cosmetics? What purpose does that have if thats how you are doing it? Just never seen a box built that way if thats the case and totally curious.


The purpose is to dampen the vibrations of the box driver coupling. Where the purpose of the rockwool will be to kill internal vibrations. The constraint system doesn't really work if you don't adhere both sides too it. 

Construction adhesive will bond the ply to the peel-n-seal. 

See http://www.earsc.com/pdfs/engineering/CLD.pdf

www.earsc.com has the best articles on CLD as it's called.


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## bambino

Thanks for the lesson and the links to. 
 Bambino.


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## lsiberian

Parts have been ordered and the project will be entering it's next phases soon. You should see construction completion and single unit testing in the coming weeks. 

Ordered are a Sure Electronics 4 x 100w amp, Sure electronics 24v 350w power supply and a miniDSP to act as the active crossover. Of course the necessary binding posts for the active, amp box and the speaker box have been ordered. The eventual plan will compare passive crossovers between the tweeter and midrange vs full active ones.

I am excited for the next phase. I look forward to this projects completion.


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## lsiberian

The first cabinets proved too difficult to get a proper exterior on. As such I'm abandoning them and starting with a fresh cabinet. I'll post pictures when I get started.


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## vann_d

Bummer. Does this mean you are abandoning the constrained layer?

I was thinking about it a little. Maybe if you construct the outer box first and then treat the interior panels with the VEM and constraining layer. The corners don't need to come together on the interior for the damping treatment to work. You just need to make sure the constraining layer is bonded well to the VEM and the VEM to the exterior panel. Maybe green glue as the VEM layer instead of asphalt roofing tile.

Anyhoo, just an idea...


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## lsiberian

vann_d said:


> Bummer. Does this mean you are abandoning the constrained layer?
> 
> I was thinking about it a little. Maybe if you construct the outer box first and then treat the interior panels with the VEM and constraining layer. The corners don't need to come together on the interior for the damping treatment to work. You just need to make sure the constraining layer is bonded well to the VEM and the VEM to the exterior panel. Maybe green glue as the VEM layer instead of asphalt roofing tile.
> 
> Anyhoo, just an idea...


I will probably try another approach eventually, but the lake of flatness on the peel-n-seal made gluing uneven and flush trim routing impossible. I know I could add the constraint layer and use a reinforced epoxy, but I really don't want cabinets that heavy. I will probably eventually give it another go. It really sucked for it not to work out, but that's engineering. You learn more from your failures than successes. Right now I'm creating speaker enclosure design software. Currently it only has a sealed optimal calculator and box calculator, but at some point enough features will exist to release it to the general public.


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## lsiberian

I've got a new design approach in mind and am working on a new build now. 

I'd like to build bipolar speakers(crazy). I will be using the same drivers on opposing sides in a sealed design. I may build a bass module at some point too. Since I do have 4 channels on my crossover to work with, but for now I will work on the top module. I will probably do internal cld building from the outside in. This time I'll be using 3/4" ply exterior, 1/2" ply interior. With drivers both front and back I won't be as able to brace the rear baffle. Temperatures just dropped below 100 so I should be out working soon.


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## lsiberian

The latest iteration is a bass module with 2 anarchy's firing forward and a separate upper module allowing me to change tweeters and midranges without rebuilding everything. The initial midrange/tweeter build has closed backs so it will be an open baffle sort of build. Construction begins next week when I finally have some time off.

It will use CLD applied to the inside of the exterior box. I have abandoned the quarter round approach in favor of the simplicity of flush routing. It has come to my attention roundovers needs to be very significant to have audible effects. Of course I still may roundover the edges with a bit after the fact.


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## Baleful

Interesting build, can't wait to see you get started again. BTW, what software is that? I did a quick search on "Enclosure design", but the results weren't very helpful


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## GranteedEV

lsiberian said:


> I have abandoned the quarter round approach in favor of the simplicity of flush routing. It has come to my attention roundovers needs to be very significant to have audible effects. Of course I still may roundover the edges with a bit after the fact.


It's true that ideally you want a good 1.5" to 2" roundover to really smooth out the diffraction (and a rearward "teardrop" curve). However even a 3/4" roundover can have a measurable effect in the treble:

http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=cabinets.html


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## lsiberian

Baleful said:


> Interesting build, can't wait to see you get started again. BTW, what software is that? I did a quick search on "Enclosure design", but the results weren't very helpful


Siberian's Speaker Designer. It requires .net 4.0 to use. It's my own speaker design package.


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## lsiberian

GranteedEV said:


> It's true that ideally you want a good 1.5" to 2" roundover to really smooth out the diffraction (and a rearward "teardrop" curve). However even a 3/4" roundover can have a measurable effect in the treble:
> 
> http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=cabinets.html


I could actually get 2" curved plywood if I wanted too, but the top baffle(where tweeter is.) Will be a seperate construction placed on top. It requires no back since the mid-range drivers are enclose. This will allow me to change the top without having to re-do everything.


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## lsiberian

The home depot has the wood, but it does take some searching. 








The cut wood waiting to be glued.








Apparently glue got into the applicator and it wouldn't disconnect itself from the cap. Glue gluing its own container is the kind of product I want in my speakers. 








Corner clamps make building speakers way simpler. 








Bar clamps plus corner clamps make for a very good center box. Baffles are added after the center is setup. 








You can see this isn't my first rodeo. I have this down pretty well now. Always use a panting canvas and wax paper on top to be extra sure you don't spill any glue on the wife's rug(apartment living for you)








gluing phase 1 done. Please note the burn marks are from home depot and not the blade I use.

Next I will flush trim the overhangs and begin applying peel-n-seal.


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## bambino

Looks like some great progress so far can't wait to see more.
It's amazing what corner clamps will do for a speaker build, my brother got me some Bessey corner clamps years ago and i haven't enjoyed them more.:T


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## lsiberian

I made the initial cuts on the baffle. I still need to add the rectangular.









Initial circle cut









Backer Board









Finished Baffle









Jasper Jig









Circle Scraps


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## lsiberian

Today, I cut the interior panels and started gluing them. 

I set up the 1/2" ply on a sheet of blue Dow Styrofoam and cut walking over it using an Emerson straight edge with a circular saw for the cuts.









These are the cut interior panels. They are a little undersize since full coverage isn't required for this to work effectively. 









This is the box sides for the miniDsp and Sure Amps. (24 x 12 x 4.5)









I set up the boxes for panel gluing by raising them up with corner clamps. 









I've glued both boards by smoothing out the adhesive with a putty knife then pressing the board down and clamping it to the speaker. Time to wait for the glue to cure. 









Still plenty to do, but progress is progress.


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## lsiberian

The interior panels are done! Next up bracing and baffles.


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## Zeitgeist

bambino said:


> Looks like some great progress so far can't wait to see more.
> It's amazing what corner clamps will do for a speaker build, my brother got me some Bessey corner clamps years ago and i haven't enjoyed them more.:T


I totally second the Bessey corner clamps. I've had to fidget with them to get them to a perfect 90 degrees, but they get you most of the way there which is hard to do without a clamp.

They save tons of time!

I've invested some money in some Bessey K-body REVO clamps and they're well worth the frustration that they save. For years I've used the el-cheapo clamps, including HF clamps (those are not fun!)


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## lsiberian

I tried to route for the tweeters without the faceplate on the first baffle attempt, but they did not look good with the wiggle room between the tweeter and board so I decided to simplify construction and build the baffle for mounting with the face-plates. since the face plates are designed for not being flush mounted it made the routing simple because the wiggle room is now safely hidden behind the face plates. 

The next step will be to drill for the driver screws and binding posts. 

After this I will begin the CLD application on the baffles. We still got a long way to go, but it is definitely getting closer to completion.


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## lsiberian

I glued the connection points for the front back braces before I glued the baffle one.










The other two baffles are already glued but the center pieces do make a perfectly sized table for gluing on.
http://www.jdeministries.org/speakerprojects/13othertwodone.jpg

Now the speakers are all ready for bracing.









Observations.
PL Construction Adhesive is superior to titebond for air tight speakers because it fills the gaps that can present themselves even on fairly precise cuts. I highly recommend it to all speakers builders over traditional titebond.
The outer inner method for CLD is much easier and more forgiving. As you see I don't have full panel coverage because it's unneeded.
A miter saw is much more fun to use than a hand saw for cutting 1x2 oak.

Next up is the rib bracing matrix.


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## Mike Edwards

I totally agree with PL adhesive. the stuff is a PAIN to work with but's expansion capabilities are a must for an air tight seal. the ONLY caveat to using PL is if you get some squished out on the outside of your cabinet. it does NOT sand down easily like titebond.


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## lsiberian

Last Weekend I added all the insulation. When you are building 3 speakers it's a lot of work.









Now all the sides are glued on and braced. Next up is routing and sanding.


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