# What Would You Do Different?



## Albertan

I've spent the past couple of weeks researching components for my HT room. I'm quite happy with my decision. But I've still been looking at what everyone else has (usually drooling:clap and second guessing myself. Then it came to me. Rather than trying to parse though several posts trying to confirm/tweak my setup, why not just come out and ask what others with more experience would do differently? I am in various stages of accumulating my components at the moment...everything from sitting in a box on the floor in my house to sitting on a piece of paper waiting for a price from vendors...but nothing has been opened yet. So spend someone else's money and let me know how you would tweak my setup, staying in the same price range (the prices I've listed are Cdn. retail). And if you agree with my choices, let me know as well. My ego is fragile. lol. 


Marantz AV7005 $1,899
Marantz MM7705 [email protected]$1,440
Marantz UD5005 $649
Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-ESLs $2,195/pr
Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-C2 $899
Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-FX2 [email protected]$699
Hsu Research VTF-15H $879

Total system price for the pre/pro, amps, disc player, speakers and sub is right around $12,000 to save someone who has a different system in mind from doing the math.


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## TypeA

Love your speaker choices, and envy your budget, but I would reconsider your processor, amp and media player. Sadly accessories for less wont ship their receivers to canada but I still think you can do better than full retail for a 7005. No shame in going used if it saves you a bunch of money, Ive seen them for $1000. The Onkyo 3009 has a higher Audyssey version than the 7005 so I would consider it also. I would also, assuming they ship to Canada, reconsider your amp. Just as good or better than that Marantz is an Emotiva XPA-5 for $800 (currently on sale). Thats a nice media player but I still love the Oppo 93 for $500. 

Dont get me wrong, youve made some solid choices if you must have all Marantz ( Im a big Marantz fan myself) but I think for the money you have listed you can probably do better going with an Onkyo/Emotiva/Oppo combo (and for less $$$).


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## Albertan

I didn't think it would be long before someone recommended the Oppo over the UD5005, and I saw the Onkyo/Emotiva combo mentioned in the pre/pro vs. AVR thread. I'll take a look. I was looking at the Denon 3313 before I went with the Marantz separates. Perhaps the AVR can't be beat in terms of bang for the buck. I'm hiding all this stuff in an equipment room...none of it will even be visible. I want to impress family and friends with sounds not equipment. And I want to keep as much money in my pocket as possible. Thanks for the advice.

+1 for the speakers and sub. Yay!

P.S. I'm not paying retail. I just thought it might keep things easier to compare. Cheers.


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## tonyvdb

Hi Dean, Its good to have another member from Alberta (we are taking over LOL) Ive learnt over the years ive been on here that everyone has their own opinion based on personal use and what seems to be a good deal. The challenge for us Canadians is to find a way to get the deals that they get in the US.
I also agree that the speaker choices you have made are great. Ive only heard them in a boutique audio store but liked what I heard. Im sure if you look through this thread (be prepared for a read but well worth it).
Im a huge fan of Onkyo and not because of just what I have but what the bench tests have said over and over again. They simply have far better numbers for amplification output and features for the money.


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## Albertan

Thanks Tony. I've had a quick look at Onkyo, but only in passing to be honest. Care to give me a heads up on the model that would be most comparable to what I am looking for? I've read varying reports on the Martin Logans in terms of their power requirements. I think, if I understand correctly, they don't need a lot of watts but they do need a lot of current. I read more than once the recommendation to go with dedicated amps for them because of their power needs. I know your an AVR proponent, so I look forward to your recommendation. Cheers.


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## phreak

Hi Dean, looks like you have put some thought into this and come up with a system that anyone would respect. Since you are asking, I will throw in my $0.02 worth, but don't interpret this as taking anything away from the fine choices you have made. 
(1) If you love the ML line, great. I always recommend a listen to Paradigm before committing. IMHO, best bang for the buck in speakers (and Canadian to boot). 
(2) If you would consider an AVR as opposed to seperates, I would suggest Marantz (since you seem to be a fan) 6006/6007/7007 or Onkyo (my preference) 818/3008/3009/5008/5009. This would allow you to cut down to 1 seperate amp instead of 2. Actually, you may even be able to run without an amp at all. 
(3) Marantz does make a fine amp, but as others have pointed out there is great value in Emotiva or even consider pro-audio options such as Crown.
(4) Take your amp savings and double your sub order. 
(5) Don't be shy about shopping online for the best price quotes to get product to your door, and bring those quotes to your local Visions to see if they will match. That saved me $800 on my receiver and another $600 on my projector, plus getting me a local distributor if things go wrong. 

Best of luck, keep us updated, and again, welcome to the Shack.


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## Albertan

(1) I am quite fond of the MLs. I've always wanted a set of electrostats and the EM series seems to be highly regarded are a reasonable price. The local shop sells a lot of Paradigm. They sound nice as well.
(2) I'm back looking at AVRs. I spent a little time looking at the Onkyo 5009 last night. I'm certainly not emotionally attached to Marantz.
(3) I haven't looked at the Emotivas yet, but I will. Is there a dealer in Edmonton?
(4) I talked to Dr. Hsu on his forum and he recommended a single VTF-15H, but I know they make a dual drive system utilizing two of the subs. Two of those subs would flake the drywall in that room.
(5) My daughter goes to school in Pennsylvania, so I probably have some options for buying products from the U.S. I'll be sure to get a quote from down there. Thanks.


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## phreak

Albertan said:


> My daughter goes to school in Pennsylvania, so I probably have some options for buying products from the U.S. I'll be sure to get a quote from down there. Thanks.


There is your connection for www.Accessories4Less.com


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## TypeA

If you have access to a4l I would take advantage of their savings, it can be big money back in your pocket and yet you still get a return policy and some warranty as they are factory authorized. 

As for item 3, no. Emotiva is an internet direct company and are not sold in stores. Thats part of why their products represent such a large value, they have no retail middlemen who want their cut. They do have a return policy if, for whatever reason, youre not happy. 

As for item 4, Im surprised Dr Hsu did not at least mention the huge benefits of dual subs. Just speaking from my own experience, and having heard the difference between a pair of Hsu VTF-2 MK3s and a single VTF-2 MK3 in my own home, I can tell you that if given a budget of, say, $1200 I would much rather own a pair of $600 subs than a single $1200 sub (assuming the $600 subs are of good pedigree). Remember, dual subs are about _accuracy and control_ and are _not_ about louder and having the ability to shake paint off the walls (both solutions will do that).


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## Albertan

If I went dual subs, would I be better to get say a 10" sub with the VTF-15H, and cross them over differently. Or would the VTF-15H Dual Drive package be a better way to go? Thanks.


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## koyaan

I'd put an "ly" on the end of different.
My life's mission is the salvation of the adverb.


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## Albertan

koyaan said:


> My life's mission is the salvation of the adverb.


Knock yourself out. :T


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## ALMFamily

I do not have a definitive answer so hopefully someone else will provide their thoughts as well, but all the threads I have seen discussing two subs suggests doing two similar subs. 

Now, if someone has an extra sub, the advice has been "go for it and see how it sounds", but if the subs have not been purchased yet, it has always been suggested to match them.


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## tonyvdb

Sorry Dean , Ive been in the hospital with my 5 year old daughter so haven't been on much. As mentioned seeing as you have a relative in the US Accessories4less is a great place to shop. I highly recommend this Onkyo 809 or even better this Onkyo 3009 The big advantage of the 3009 is it has Audyssey MultEQ® XT32 and 9.2 channels


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## 95FLHTC

tonyvdb said:


> Sorry Dean , Ive been in the hospital with my 5 year old daughter so haven't been on much. As mentioned seeing as you have a relative in the US Accessories4less is a great place to shop. I highly recommend this Onkyo 809 or even better this Onkyo 3009 The big advantage of the 3009 is it has Audyssey MultEQ® XT32 and 9.2 channels


Not to sound like a donkey, but I understand the 809 is manufacture discontinued and has recall issues. Why would I buy one unless its for a really good price ?
I ordered an 809 in April at an Oakville location, was told it was discontinued 2 month later and would be replaced by an an 819. One month later I was still waiting for the 819. I finally cancelled after waiting 3 month.

I'm mad with Onkyo for the way they handled my order. Till they get their stuff together I am reluctant to recommend any Onkyo and thats all I have say.


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## tonyvdb

Accsseories4less has them in stock and the units are not on the recall list as they have checked their stock. The 819 is a step back over what the 809 offers. i also would not fault Onkyo for your troubles as it seems the dealer you are using is the problem.


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## ALMFamily

tonyvdb said:


> Accsseories4less has them in stock and the units are not on the recall list as they have checked their stock. The 819 is a step back over what the 809 offers. i also would not fault Onkyo for your troubles as it seems the dealer you are using is the problem.


+1 - I have an 809 and have been very pleased with it. From the feedback I have seen, anyone that purchased one from A4L either had a good unit or was taken care of right away and, as Tony stated, A4L also reviewed their remaining stock to ensure the units were not on the recall list.


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## Albertan

tonyvdb said:


> Sorry Dean , Ive been in the hospital with my 5 year old daughter so haven't been on much. As mentioned seeing as you have a relative in the US Accessories4less is a great place to shop. I highly recommend this Onkyo 809 or even better this Onkyo 3009 The big advantage of the 3009 is it has Audyssey MultEQ® XT32 and 9.2 channels


No problem Tony. I hope your daughter is doing OK. 

I went to Visions after work today. They have a 3009 demo running their flat screen wall and I think they said they have another one new in the box. They also told me Prince George has two 5009s, and they could have one here by the weekend. Not that I'm really in any rush. Prices seemed OK but I'll do a little more research tonight. I also want to make sure my electrostats are powered OK. They aren't the fanciest ones, but they're all power-hungry beasts apparently.

So anyways, the system du jour is now an Onkyo 5009 with a Oppo BDP-93. And I'll have to do a little more research into getting two VTF-15Hs. All the Martin Logan stuff is now ordered. :TT


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## Albertan

I should also ask the best place to order the Oppo from, should I settle on that unit. Thanks.


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## tonyvdb

The 5009 is an excellent choice:T If it was me I would probably get a two channel amp to run the mains and use the receiver to power the rest because as you said the ML are hungry hard to drive speakers.


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## ALMFamily

tonyvdb said:


> The 5009 is an excellent choice:T If it was me I would probably get a two channel amp to run the mains and use the receiver to power the rest because as you said the ML are hungry hard to drive speakers.


+1 - I went this route myself by getting a couple of Aragon monoblocks. And, the 5009 is a great unit - XT32 is worth it's weight in gold!


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## Albertan

I have a couple of questions comparing the 3009 to the 5009. I may as well ask them here. 

1) The main differences between the two are the toroidal power supply and the 192K/32bit DACs. Are these worth $800 (retail)?

2) Both are listed as being "continuous 6Ω rated" and "certified 4Ω performance", so I'm thinking at the worst I won't hoop the ML EM-ESLs using either of these to power them. Then again, I have read of MLs dipping to 2Ω at 20,000kHz. :rubeyes:

3) The 5009 is listed as having a powered Zone2. Does that mean the 5009 can run a BD in my HT in 9.2 and still stream music to another room in 2 channels at the same time?


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## JBrax

95FLHTC said:


> Not to sound like a donkey, but I understand the 809 is manufacture discontinued and has recall issues. Why would I buy one unless its for a really good price ?
> I ordered an 809 in April at an Oakville location, was told it was discontinued 2 month later and would be replaced by an an 819. One month later I was still waiting for the 819. I finally cancelled after waiting 3 month.
> 
> I'm mad with Onkyo for the way they handled my order. Till they get their stuff together I am reluctant to recommend any Onkyo and thats all I have say.


I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience. That sounds like a pretty frustrating experience. I'm a proud owner of the 809 and am extremely pleased with both it's performance and reliability. There are many great AVR's out there and certainly Onkyo is not the only brand to choose from but I do think they offer the most for your money.


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## Albertan

tonyvdb said:


> The 5009 is an excellent choice:T If it was me I would probably get a two channel amp to run the mains and use the receiver to power the rest because as you said the ML are hungry hard to drive speakers.


For whatever reason, I always seem to try keep stay with the same brand. Would Onkyo's M-5000R be appropriate? If not could someone recommend something better? Thanks.


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## phreak

Yes, the M-5000R would work well for your application, and it would look amazing in the rack next to a 5009. Would I buy it? Not a chance. Compare the Visions sale price of $2788 with Emotiva's XPA-2 @ $719. Now compare the spec sheets. Of course it won't be cheap to have Emotiva ship the 83 lb box. 

Want even more power? Try pro audio gear such as QSC RMX 2450. $789 in Edmonton at www.axemusic.com


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## tonyvdb

Im using a Samson Servo 600 Axe music has it here It has both balanced and unbalanced inputs so very flexible and it uses a large Toroidal power supply.


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## phreak

tonyvdb said:


> Im using a Samson Servo 600 Axe music has it here It has both balanced and unbalanced inputs so very flexible and it uses a large Toroidal power supply.


Awesome find tonyvbd, that is my new 2ch go-to.


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## ALMFamily

Albertan said:


> I have a couple of questions comparing the 3009 to the 5009. I may as well ask them here.
> 
> 1) The main differences between the two are the toroidal power supply and the 192K/32bit DACs. Are these worth $800 (retail)?


I personally would do the 3009 as I use outboard amplification for all channels - if I were planning on the AVR powering the surrounds, I would probably go with the 5009.



Albertan said:


> 2) Both are listed as being "continuous 6Ω rated" and "certified 4Ω performance", so I'm thinking at the worst I won't hoop the ML EM-ESLs using either of these to power them. Then again, I have read of MLs dipping to 2Ω at 20,000kHz. :rubeyes:


IIRC, there is so little in that range that it should not be a problem.



Albertan said:


> 3) The 5009 is listed as having a powered Zone2. Does that mean the 5009 can run a BD in my HT in 9.2 and still stream music to another room in 2 channels at the same time?


It can - as long as you provide the power. On my 809, I can do 7.2 in my HT but, in order to do Zone 2 in my workshop, I have an Emotiva UPA-2 to provide the needed power. If you were to only do 7.2 in your HT, then you would not need the additional amp.


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## Albertan

I'm liking the 5009 as, at least initially, I will use the AVR to power all the channels except left and right front. 

WRT the powered Zone2 on the 5009, I think you can run the theater in 7.2 _and_ power two channels in a second zone. The 5009 has binding posts for 11 channels. I assume you can select the output based on the zone. I could be wrong, but that was what I got from my reading last night.

Thanks for the amp recommendations. I will do some more research tonight. I think I've settled on the 5009. And I'm discussing the VTF-15H Dual Drive setup with Hsu Research now.


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## Albertan

tonyvdb said:


> Im using a Samson Servo 600 Axe music has it here It has both balanced and unbalanced inputs so very flexible and it uses a large Toroidal power supply.


OK, now to play devil's advocate. Why not just get a pre/pro and Samson amps? A Servo 600 running the fronts, two Servo 300s running the sides and rears, and a bridged Servo 120a for the center channel is only $1,114. The more I learn the further I slip down the rabbit hole....


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## TypeA

If the price is the same between the pre/pro and an AVR I would take the AVR, if nothing else it will be easier to sell come upgrade time.


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## phreak

Albertan said:


> OK, now to play devil's advocate. Why not just get a pre/pro and Samson amps? A Servo 600 running the fronts, two Servo 300s running the sides and rears, and a bridged Servo 120a for the center channel is only $1,114. The more I learn the further I slip down the rabbit hole....


If the pre/pro was $1114 cheaper than the AVR, sure. Maybe even if it was $7-800 cheaper. The interesting problem is that due to lower production runs a pre/pro usually cost the same or more than the equivalent AVR.


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## Albertan

Points taken. Can someone explain to this newb how the M-5000R is so much better than the TX-NR5009 to drive the front channels? The AVR is rated at 145W & the amp is rated at 150W. I don't know if its a question of current or something else, but I sure would like to understand this. Thanks.


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## tonyvdb

Receivers in general have one power transformer that supplies power to all the amplifier's in the receiver. The issue is that its simply not large enough to power them all at the same time and that will equal distortion when a movie requires alot of sound be produced by all 7 or more channels at the same time. Its like trying to suck a smoothie up a small straw no matter how hard you try you cant get it to come faster than what the straw will allow.
Onkyo Receivers have always done well in this regard but still it makes sense to power the main channels separately.


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## OZZIERP

As to the VTF-15H I own one and love it as the best location do to the shape of my room and the fact its open to the den and kitchen I would have to collocate 2 subs with that being said one 15H is plenty of tight room shaking bass besides I don't play musical chairs when setting down for critical listening.
The Oppo 93 has already been mentioned and I would definitely get one of them ,my 83 is still going strong.
Another option would be a Denon 4311 a lot of bang for the buck.


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## phreak

Great points regarding powering all channels from AVR versus adding 2ch amp, I fully agree. Some manufactures take the max power per channel with 2 ch driven and multiply that times # of channels. That is how you get ads for 1000W 7.1 HTIB for $200. Some of those can only do 200W total at 10% THD. At least Onkyo doesn't make those ridiculous claims, and their all channel driven specs are better than most manufacturers. Taking a load off the receiver is never a bad idea, especially the mains. 
My beef with the M-5000R is that even though it is only a 2 ch amp, at about the same price as a 5009 AVR, it's specs are not much better than using the 5009 to power only 2 ch. Yet the 5009 is way more than just a 2 ch amp with extra lights on the front.


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## Albertan

I just got quoted $400 for shipping the VTF-15H up here. :gulp:

I'm gonna have to look into that...


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## ALMFamily

That is $400 just for shipping?


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## Albertan

$400 to ship a single sub, yup. If I settle on some other mail order stuff, I may have to arrange a trip to Montana to pick everything up. I think the flat rate in the US for the VTF-15H is $138.


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## tonyvdb

Dean, Have you looked at SVS subs? Sonic Boom Audio is the Canadian distributor.


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## ALMFamily

I have a couple PB-13 Ultras I bought used and have been extremely pleased with them - my wife keeps wondering why there is no lightening with all that thunder she keeps hearing.... :devil:


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## Albertan

No I haven't Tony. But I have heard of them. I'll try to get a look in the next day or so. I'd like to settle on components and have everything ordered by Monday night.


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## Albertan

I dropped by the other dedicated A/V store in town today. They are Pioneer and Yamaha dealers. Nothing really caught my eye until I saw a SC-09Tx sitting on a table, offered as a demo unit. I'm not sure if anyone has any feedback on it. It's a little different class of unit, retailing around $7,000 new I believe. I can tell the model is a couple of years old, but my early research seems to suggest it's a candidate. It has ten channels and was bench tested to 200W per channel with 7 channels driven. Thanks for any feedback.

BTW, the SC-68 was the current model recommended to me.


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## OZZIERP

Albertan said:


> I dropped by the other dedicated A/V store in town today. They are Pioneer and Yamaha dealers. Nothing really caught my eye until I saw a SC-09Tx sitting on a table, offered as a demo unit. I'm not sure if anyone has any feedback on it. It's a little different class of unit, retailing around $7,000 new I believe. I can tell the model is a couple of years old, but my early research seems to suggest it's a candidate. It has ten channels and was bench tested to 200W per channel with 7 channels driven. Thanks for any feedback.
> 
> BTW, the SC-68 was the current model recommended to me.


I have only been able to hear a SC57 and I was impressed with the sound using Kef speakers.


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## Albertan

Well, I just ordered the Oppo BDP-93 from Solutions AV in Toronto. Glad I learned about it here. 

Now I just have to get my head around the $2449.30 USD quote for the VTF-15H Dual Drives. Might have to sneak that one past the wife while she's sleeping. Gulp...


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## JBrax

Albertan said:


> Well, I just ordered the Oppo BDP-93 from Solutions AV in Toronto. Glad I learned about it here.
> 
> Now I just have to get my head around the $2449.30 USD quote for the VTF-15H Dual Drives. Might have to sneak that one past the wife while she's sleeping. Gulp...


Is there a reason you're not interested in the advice Tony (Tonyvdb) provided. A local distributor for SVS and you would save a considerable amount of money. For that amount quoted you could have their flagship subwoofer and money left over. Scour the net and you will fail to find anything but praise for SVS subwoofers.


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## Albertan

JBrax said:


> Is there a reason you're not interested in the advice Tony (Tonyvdb) provided. A local distributor for SVS and you would save a considerable amount of money. For that amount quoted you could have their flagship subwoofer and money left over. Scour the net and you will fail to find anything but praise for SVS subwoofers.


I'm interested in everyone's advice. :T I'm pulled in several directions right now choosing my AVR/pre-pro, amps, subs and disc player. I haven't had the opportunity to fully research the subs yet as I've been looking into AVRs the past couple of nights. I posted the VTF-15H quotes more as a matter of interest. 

Come to think of it, I don't see your recommendations here yet.


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## JBrax

As far as the sub goes I don't think you can go wrong with SVS. When I went on my sub hunt that's what I ended up going with and have been impressed from day one. Not to say HSU and Rythmik don't make nice subs as I'm sure they do but I wouldn't pay that ridiculous shipping fee.


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## Albertan

Thanks for the recommendation Jeff. If you and Tony are recommending them, they must be contenders. Care to suggest a particular model to save me some hunting? I think I'll go with two subs. I never did get a response to my question above regarding sub sizing. Would it be better to get two identical subs, or say a 10" and a 15" and cross them over differently? Thanks.


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## Albertan

ALMFamily said:


> I do not have a definitive answer so hopefully someone else will provide their thoughts as well, but all the threads I have seen discussing two subs suggests doing two similar subs.
> 
> Now, if someone has an extra sub, the advice has been "go for it and see how it sounds", but if the subs have not been purchased yet, it has always been suggested to match them.


Thanks Joe. Missed your post before.


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## JBrax

Albertan said:


> Thanks for the recommendation Jeff. If you and Tony are recommending them, they must be contenders. Care to suggest a particular model to save me some hunting? I think I'll go with two subs. I never did get a response to my question above regarding sub sizing. Would it be better to get two identical subs, or say a 10" and a 15" and cross them over differently? Thanks.


If it's within your budget range I would go with their flagship PB13 ultra. A pair of them would run you about $4000 here in the states. Yes I would buy 2 of the same subs when purchasing. SVS has top notch customer service also and a few other perks. They have a 1 year trade up policy which is unheard of though that would 't come into play if purchasing their flagship model.


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## tonyvdb

Yup, the SVS PB13U would be a strong contender over any sub out there. I have one myself and its in a large room and still fills it with authority. Shipping it to Alberta is about $125 from Ontario


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## Albertan

Emotiva just quoted me ½ as much to ship a XPA-5 & XPA-2 as Hsu Research quoted to ship one VTF-15H. Looks like I'm going SVS. 

My current thinking on the "rack" is a Onkyo TX-NR3009 serving as a pre/pro for an Emotiva XPA-5 & XPA-2. The Emotiva XMC-1 is interesting too as a pre/pro, but its not out yet and doesn't seem to have quite as many features as the Onkyo.


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## JBrax

Try and find someone selling their SVS sub. There's a reason people don't get rid of them.


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## Albertan

Just doing a final check between the Onkyo TX-NR3009 AVR and the Onkyo PR-SC5508 pre/pro. There is a $50 difference in price, but I've noticed what I think are some advantages with the pre/pro. If anyone could weigh in on the value of these advantages, it would be appreciated.

1) The pre/pro has balanced line-level XLR pre-outs. The Emotivas have balanced XLR inputs.

2) The pre/pro uses 192K/32 Bit DACs, compared to the AVR's 192K/24 Bit DACs.

3) The pre/pro handles 1080p upconversion with the HVQ Reon Vx, while the AVR uses the HVQ Vida.

4) The pre/pro has adjustable crossovers by channel pairs.

Thanks. Hoping to purchase the AVR or pre/pro as soon as I make a decision on these two and cross these items off my to do list.


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## tonyvdb

Personally there will be no audible difference with the DACs. 
The Emotiva amps also have unbalanced inputs and there is no difference between the two unless your running long distance interconnects of over 100ft.
The HQV Vida is a newer processor and will be slightly better processing. 
Crossovers are also the same on the 5003 so you will have the same flexibility.


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## Albertan

Thanks Tony. So other than a slightly better video processor, there's not much to choose between them. Of course the 3009 will have better resale down the road as pointed out.

I just got off the phone with Emotiva ordering the XPA-5 & XPA-2. Very courteous customer service. It's nice to see a few companies still offer that.


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## OZZIERP

JBrax said:


> Try and find someone selling their SVS sub. There's a reason people don't get rid of them.


Actually the same can be said for HSU and Rythmik unless the owner is simply getting the next model up.


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## phreak

Albertan said:


> Just doing a final check between the Onkyo TX-NR3009 AVR and the Onkyo PR-SC5508 pre/pro. There is a $50 difference in price, but I've noticed what I think are some advantages with the pre/pro. If anyone could weigh in on the value of these advantages, it would be appreciated.
> 
> 1) The pre/pro has balanced line-level XLR pre-outs. The Emotivas have balanced XLR inputs.
> 
> 2) The pre/pro uses 192K/32 Bit DACs, compared to the AVR's 192K/24 Bit DACs.
> 
> 3) The pre/pro handles 1080p upconversion with the HVQ Reon Vx, while the AVR uses the HVQ Vida.
> 
> 4) The pre/pro has adjustable crossovers by channel pairs.
> 
> Thanks. Hoping to purchase the AVR or pre/pro as soon as I make a decision on these two and cross these items off my to do list.


As tonyvbd pointed out 1 & 4 are nonissue, 2 & 3 are benefits so small as to be likely imperceptible. Fast forward 5-6 years when upgradeitus sets in and you want a new processor. An AVR can be swapped into a smaller system or sold to a large marketplace of potential buyers. A Pre-pro requires separate amps to go with it or you can try find a buyer from the smaller group want ing to go that route.


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## phreak

Albertan said:


> Just doing a final check between the Onkyo TX-NR3009 AVR and the Onkyo PR-SC5508 pre/pro. There is a $50 difference in price, but I've noticed what I think are some advantages with the pre/pro. If anyone could weigh in on the value of these advantages, it would be appreciated.
> 
> 1) The pre/pro has balanced line-level XLR pre-outs. The Emotivas have balanced XLR inputs.
> 
> 2) The pre/pro uses 192K/32 Bit DACs, compared to the AVR's 192K/24 Bit DACs.
> 
> 3) The pre/pro handles 1080p upconversion with the HVQ Reon Vx, while the AVR uses the HVQ Vida.
> 
> 4) The pre/pro has adjustable crossovers by channel pairs.
> 
> Thanks. Hoping to purchase the AVR or pre/pro as soon as I make a decision on these two and cross these items off my to do list.


One thing I forgot because it is just too obvious. The benefit of the AVR over Pre-pro is 140 W x 9 Amp. For basically free.


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## OZZIERP

phreak said:


> One thing I forgot because it is just too obvious. The benefit of the AVR over Pre-pro is 140 W x 9 Amp. For basically free.


Not to mention you still have a working system should the external amp fails.


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## ALMFamily

Wow - I spend a day cleaning the house and doing the boys' baseball and I miss 2 whole pages of conversation! :unbelievable:

As far as the pre/pro versus AVR, I completely agree with Phreak and Tony - the AVR has a lot more flexibility as far as use and resale and the differences are negligible.

As far as subs, I noticed the same thing that Jeff pointed out - I had a harder time finding used SVS subs as opposed to the others. That was the final kicker for me - I ended up stealing my 2 PB-13Us from Jeff's backyard and have been extremely pleased with them.

Also, SVS's customer support is top notch (not to say the others are not as I have never dealt with them) - I sent a message to Ed on a weekend and got a reply back on a Sunday night. :T


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## ALMFamily

Oh, and grats on the Oppo - it is a great unit and I know you will be quite pleased with it!


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## Albertan

Just got a 3009 from Visions tonight. They're transferring it from the Clareview store in Edmonton. Just the subs left to get now. Yay!


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## ALMFamily

Congrats Dean - may it be the brains of your HT for years to come! :bigsmile:


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## tonyvdb

Yay, Dean! thats going to be a great system by the sounds of it. The Clareview Vissions is where I got my Panasonic AE4000u. Ive never really been a fan of the store, their sales people are really pushy and in my opinion dont know much.


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## phreak

tonyvdb said:


> Yay, Dean! thats going to be a great system by the sounds of it. The Clareview Vissions is where I got my Panasonic AE4000u. Ive never really been a fan of the store, their sales people are really pushy and in my opinion dont know much.


Agreed on Visions, and not just that location. They are great if you know what you want and what it's worth before walking in. Usually pretty good about price matching any Canadian online pricing.


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## Albertan

Yeah I'm loathe to deal with them and their sales model. But they want to sell stuff worse than anyone else, so you can use it to your advantage. I went in and showed them the unit on A4L's site, my daughter on the roster of a U.S. college's site (to show them I had the means to get it from A4L), and pointed out that the unit was discontinued. They quoted me $2,299 the other day, and I pointed out Cdn MSRP is only $2,499. Then I told them I wanted to pay $2,000 tax in or I was getting it from A4L. They came back with $2,100 + GST. I said no and got half way out the store before they changed their mind and gave me the price I wanted. 

I know I could have got it cheaper in the States. But by the time I go through the time and hassle of shipping it to my daughter in PA and then up to me it just wasn't worth the couple of hundred dollars.


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## ALMFamily

Boy, you all have got me thinking I should take a Canadian road trip with the rooms / systems you guys are putting together so I can visit you all!


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## Albertan

ALMFamily said:


> Boy, you all have got me thinking I should take a Canadian road trip with the rooms / systems you guys are putting together so I can visit you all!


Look up Grande Prairie on google Maps. That'll jerk you back to reality. lol.

Of course you're welcome to stay if you ever find your way up here.


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## ALMFamily

Albertan said:


> Look up Grande Prairie on google Maps. That'll jerk you back to reality. lol.
> 
> Of course you're welcome to stay if you ever find your way up here.


How is the fishing by you? 

Ironically, I did look it up when you originally posted about the shipping costs for the HSUs - thought I could help you out by having them shipped here and meeting you halfway. Of course, when I saw that you were 30 hours away....... :bigsmile:


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## Albertan

I have a cabin up at Slave Lake a few hours away. If you ever want to experience walleye fishing where your hook doesn't make it to the bottom for an hour vertical jigging, let me know. I'll take you out in my Warrior V-2121. 










Or alternatively, we can head out to my place on Shuswap Lake in B.C. and catch rainbows and lakers. I'm easy.


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## Albertan

I just finished ordering my SVS subs from SonicBoomAudio in Toronto after talking to Doug at SVS for 20 minutes or so. Again, outstanding customer service. I'm glad I called because they weren't the subs I would have chosen. But it's good to get the assistance of an expert. 

So that concludes my decision making/ordering for the main components. I'm gonna tally it up below. I don't think it was any cheaper in the end. But I know I'll have a better system..maybe even the best sytem for my budget. Thanks again to everyone who provided assistance and explained all the things I didn't understand and recommended components, whether I settled on them or not. I've listed where I started and where I finished below. Cheers.

*In The Beginning...*


Marantz AV7005 $1,899
Marantz MM7705 [email protected]$1,440
Marantz UD5005 $649
Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-ESLs $2,195/pr
Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-C2 $899
Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-FX2 [email protected]$699
Hsu Research VTF-15H $879
*TOTAL = $12,210*

*In The End...*


Onkyo TX-NR3009 $2,000
Emotiva XPA-5 $810
Emotiva XPA-2 $720
Oppo BDP-93 $500
Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-ESLs $2,195/pr
Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-C2 $899
Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-FX2 [email protected]$699
SVS PC12-Plus [email protected]$1250
*TOTAL = $12,430*

Wow. Almost the same price. I figured I'd put another $1,000 to $2,000 in. You guys are good. :TT


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## phreak

Awesome upgrade for $220


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## tonyvdb

Albertan said:


> I have a cabin up at Slave Lake a few hours away. If you ever want to experience walleye fishing where your hook doesn't make it to the bottom for an hour vertical jigging, let me know. I'll take you out in my Warrior V-2121.
> 
> Or alternatively, we can head out to my place on Shuswap Lake in B.C. and catch rainbows and lakers. I'm easy.


Dean, Thats a sweet boat! Ive never done any serious fishing but some day maybe I will give it a go. I have not been up to Slave lake ( I dont know why as it only 3 hrs from me) but hear its a really nice place.


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## TypeA

Albertan said:


> I just finished ordering my SVS subs from SonicBoomAudio in Toronto after talking to Doug at SVS for 20 minutes or so. Again, outstanding customer service. I'm glad I called because they weren't the subs I would have chosen. But it's good to get the assistance of an expert.
> 
> So that concludes my decision making/ordering for the main components. I'm gonna tally it up below. I don't think it was any cheaper in the end. But I know I'll have a better system..maybe even the best sytem for my budget. Thanks again to everyone who provided assistance and explained all the things I didn't understand and recommended components, whether I settled on them or not. I've listed where I started and where I finished below. Cheers.
> 
> *In The Beginning...*
> 
> 
> Marantz AV7005 $1,899
> Marantz MM7705 [email protected]$1,440
> Marantz UD5005 $649
> Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-ESLs $2,195/pr
> Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-C2 $899
> Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-FX2 [email protected]$699
> Hsu Research VTF-15H $879
> *TOTAL = $12,210*
> 
> *In The End...*
> 
> 
> Onkyo TX-NR3009 $2,000
> Emotiva XPA-5 $810
> Emotiva XPA-2 $720
> Oppo BDP-93 $500
> Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-ESLs $2,195/pr
> Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-C2 $899
> Martin Logan ElectroMotion EM-FX2 [email protected]$699
> SVS PC12-Plus [email protected]$1250
> *TOTAL = $12,430*
> 
> Wow. Almost the same price. I figured I'd put another $1,000 to $2,000 in. You guys are good. :TT


Congrats Dean, looks like a great system


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## Albertan

tonyvdb said:


> Dean, Thats a sweet boat! Ive never done any serious fishing but some day maybe I will give it a go. I have not been up to Slave lake ( I dont know why as it only 3 hrs from me) but hear its a really nice place.


Just let me know of you have a couple of weekends open this summer and we'll see if we can set something up. I have a comfy 600ft² guest house I don't use often enough out there.


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## tonyvdb

ALMFamily said:


> Boy, you all have got me thinking I should take a Canadian road trip with the rooms / systems you guys are putting together so I can visit you all!


Well, Edmonton is not so far and there is lots to do here if you ever get up this way you have a place to stay.

@Dean, That sounds fun. I will PM you sometime soon here and set something up. 
It looks like SVS set you up nicely with some good subs.


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## Albertan

Yeah Doug at SVS was very helpful. I wouldn't have thought to go with the cylinder subs, but he said they perform roughly the same as the ported boxes and take up less floor space.


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## tonyvdb

Yup they will do well just be prepared as they are still quite large in height and I think you will be shocked as to how they look.


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## ALMFamily

That is going to be one amazing system Dean - and the fact you spent pretty much the same as when you started is fantastic!

If you guys do set something up this summer, you will have to let me know the dates and I will try to see if I can't make a trip. Baseball ends in the 2nd week of July so my calendar should start to open up a bit again. Thanks to you both for the invite - I was just kidding about taking a Canadian swing, but after seeing that boat...... :yikes:


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## Albertan

tonyvdb said:


> Yup they will do well just be prepared as they are still quite large in height and I think you will be shocked as to how they look.


Like a garbage can no doubt. lol.

I think the footprint will come in handy for the rear one, where it can sit off the riser beside the door. If I don't like them I will upgrade them. If I had a larger room, or if I was going to have a lot of components on my front wall, I would have probably went with the PB12-PLUSes as showpiece items.


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## ALMFamily

I could be incorrect, but I thought Tony's PB-13 was a cylinder sub - is that right Tony?

Personally, I have seen several really nice looking cylinder subs - actually, my second planned DIY project is going to be one after I get my feet wet building a box first. I think you won't mind the appearance at all.


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## Albertan

I went down in the theater room and measured them out. I know exactly what I got myself into. 

We were watching a movie last night and out of the blue an acquaintance BBM'd my wife a picture of him standing in the picture of his new 137" projection screen, presumably to impress all his friends since we haven't heard from him in months. That's not how I roll. Doug said if you don't need the prestige of the big box, go with the cylinders and save some floor space since their performance is very comparable. Not that everyone running the big box is out to impress their friends...in most setups, if you have the space, they give better esthetics. May as well get the esthetics all other things being equal, just as I decided to save floor space all other things (sound) being equal.

BTW, Tony's PB13-ULTRA is a great big box suitable as the focal point of any home theater setup. :T


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## ALMFamily

Albertan said:


> I went down in the theater room and measured them out. I know exactly what I got myself into.
> 
> We were watching a movie last night and out of the blue an acquaintance BBM'd my wife a picture of him standing in the picture of his new 137" projection screen, presumably to impress all his friends since we haven't heard from him in months. That's not how I roll. Doug said if you don't need the prestige of the big box, go with the cylinders and save some floor space since their performance is very comparable. Not that everyone running the big box is out to impress their friends...in most setups, if you have the space, they give better esthetics. May as well get the esthetics all other things being equal, just as I decided to save floor space all other things (sound) being equal.
> 
> BTW, Tony's PB13-ULTRA is a great big box suitable as the focal point of any home theater setup. :T


Good to hear - really can't wait to see your system all set up in all it's glory. And, thanks, I could not remember if Tony had a cylinder or box......


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## TypeA

Albertan said:


> Doug said if you don't need the prestige of the big box, go with the cylinders and save some floor space since their performance is very comparable. Not that everyone running the big box is out to impress their friends...in most setups, if you have the space, they give better esthetics. May as well get the esthetics all other things being equal, just as I decided to save floor space all other things (sound) being equal.
> 
> BTW, Tony's PB13-ULTRA is a great big box suitable as the focal point of any home theater setup. :T


Im not sure about the whole "prestige" thing but big cylinders will _never_ be mistaken for end tables


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## ALMFamily

TypeA said:


> Im not sure about the whole "prestige" thing but big cylinders will _never_ be mistaken for end tables


Saw that pic and the first thought in my head - "Where is the coaster Ty?! " :bigsmile:


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## TypeA

The Rosenut VTF-2 MK3 can be considered 'fine furniture' (scratches easily). If you look closely youll see a table placement pad covering almost the entire top, I dont take chances with dinky coasters


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## ALMFamily

TypeA said:


> The Rosenut VTF-2 MK3 can be considered 'fine furniture' (scratches easily). If you look closely youll see a table placement pad covering almost the entire top, I dont take chances with dinky coasters


:rofl2: - I thought that was part of the finish! :R Awesome coaster then!


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## tonyvdb

ALMFamily said:


> I could be incorrect, but I thought Tony's PB-13 was a cylinder sub - is that right Tony?


Nope, Ive got the big old box and boy is it big LOL The PB13u is the box sub and the PC13u is the cylinder.


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## ALMFamily

Had I just glanced at your sig, I would have seen that..... :doh: :R


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