# Getting better 2 channel performance in HT system



## Mercatus (Jul 15, 2009)

Hopefully someone here can help me figure out the best we to improve the 2 channel performance of my home theater system. I'm thinking of getting new 2 channel components - a preamplifier and amps, but I'm just getting into this so if anyone can recommend products that meet the following requirements that would be great!

Requirements:
-Analog Bass Management
-HT Bypass (preferably when completely off)
-Less than $500 for each component, used or new, obviously the cheaper the better, but the system needs to provide a noticeable improvement over my Denon 3808 to justify the money.

Use:
-To provide better analog 2 channel playback than a Denon 3808 from an Oppo BDP-83 SE
-Speakers are EMP EF30T (same as RBH TK-5CT), great speakers - detailed, neutral & laid back. There's better speakers out there, but not for the $338 I paid for this pair.
-Sub is an Epik Sentinel

Options so far:
-Emotiva USP-1 with UPA-2 (cheapest option)
-Parasound 2100 with 2125 (more expensive, but can probably find it used. not sure if it would be an improvement over the emotiva gear, if anyone can comment that would be great)
-???


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I have been using Parasound gear for over a decade and will say that it truly is in another league than Emotiva. As it should be considering how much more expensive most Parasound gear is than Emotiva.

Emotiva offers amazing value and quality components. However, with the Halo Gear and the HCA Series designed by John Curl, it really comes close to Ultra High End components.

Emotiva is really intelligent in that, for instance, their XPA Series all share the same 1.2 kVA Toroidal Transformer across the line. With the XPA-1, it is used as a Monoblock, the XPA-2 a 2 channel amplifier, the XPA-5 a 5 Channel amplifier. By using the same transformer, they can purchase in huge numbers and pass those savings down the line.

With Halo and the upper level HCA Series, the transformers are around twice the size as Emotiva's.
The 5 Channel A51 uses a 2.2 kVA Toroidal Transformer and 164,000 uf of filter capacitance for instance.
Again, the lines really are not comparable when looking at prices. Parasound really is much more expensive than Emotiva.

That being said, you can find Parasound used sometimes for excellent prices. I love my HCA-3500 and this amp is usually available for around 1,200 Dollars used. This amp is actually the basis for the flagship JC-1 Monoblocks.

I would also recommend either a Halo or HCA Series Amplifier over the 2125 which is part of the New Classic line and is not designed by John Curl.
Cheers,
JJ


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Mercatus said:


> Hopefully someone here can help me figure out the best we to improve the 2 channel performance of my home theater system. I'm thinking of getting new 2 channel components - a preamplifier and amps, but I'm just getting into this so if anyone can recommend products that meet the following requirements that would be great!
> 
> Requirements:
> -Analog Bass Management
> ...


There are three ways to improve measurable performance.

1. Upgrade your speakers
2. Upgrade your room
3. Add an EQ system

Adding an Amp isn't proven to improve performance in an audio system unless it's used in conjunction with an eq system. If you are looking to upgrade your amp section I almost always suggest you go Pro. Going pro gives you a lot of upgrade paths and lots more power than consumer level amps. However they aren't as convenient as a consumer amp with 12v triggers. 

Of course the best thing we could do is probably have you add room treatments, but I realize you seem to want an external amp. If you do want a consumer level amp then Emotiva is the hands down choice IMO. If you want a pro amp look at Yamaha, Behringer, or QSCs. 

I realize there are somethings that can't be measured like the primal feeling of adding an external amp. Just realize there are many ways to upgrade a system. Some are much more beneficial to the sound. Some are more beneficial to the ego. :R


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## Mercatus (Jul 15, 2009)

thanks for the input JJ, but it looks like all the parasound equipment you mentioned is quite a bit pricier than what i'm looking for. any idea how good their budget equipment is? like the 2100 pre and the 2125 amp i mentioned. I've read good reviews of them but am having a hard time comparing them to the emotiva line. a hometheaterhifi review of the parasound equipment puts it slightly higher than the emotiva rsp-1, but that emotiva pre is no longer available and i don't know how it compares to their current usp-1


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## Mercatus (Jul 15, 2009)

lsiberian said:


> There are three ways to improve measurable performance.
> 
> 1. Upgrade your speakers
> 2. Upgrade your room
> ...



i definitely see your point and agree with you. i purchase room treatments as the budget and girlfriend allow. new speakers will come in a couple years. and i'm pretty happy with the equalization that the audyssey system provides for multichannel sound. but what i'm really looking for is just providing dedicated 2 channel equipment to provide quality, unaltered analog stereo sound that the denon just can't provide (especially if it redigitizes the analog outs on my oppo SE, which would totally defeat the purpose of getting that SE)


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
What is your max budget? Also, there are some really nice 5 Channel Passive Preamplifiers that would get the most out of you BDP-83 SE. In addition to Parasound, McCormack Audio makes an excellent unit.
In addition, there is a Sony ES 5 Channel Preamp that's model name eludes me.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Mercatus (Jul 15, 2009)

max budget is only $1000 for both a preamp and amps. that's why i'm only really looking at 2 channel components. i'd love to get a parasound p7 or that sony p9000es (i think that's the one you're referring to), but it's just not in the cards


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
How about something like this:http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1266382567&/Parasound-Halo-P3-Preamplifier

And:http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1267303898&/Aragon-4004-Mk-II-

The Aragon 4004 was designed by Dan D'Agostino. He is the Founder and Majority Owner of Krell.
The Mark II is an excellent amplifier that can drive about any speaker out there.
Here is an overview of Aragon:http://reviews.ebay.com/Classic-Ara...000001149810?ssPageName=BUYGD:CAT:-1:SEARCH:2
They are made in America and really are fantastic amplifiers.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

I highly, highly recommend room treatment for a couple hundred dollars. That would improve not only the 2 channel, but the home theater sound in your room. Since you said buying different speakers is not going to happen for a couple years, the most drastic change you will have will be with room acoustic treatments.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Also try using analog outputs from your DVD/CD and ataching them to a dedicated input as it may sometimes sound better than using optical or HDMI.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Better speakers and acoustic treatments. Until you do these, you should use the HDMI connections from Oppo to Denon.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Kal Rubinson said:


> Better speakers and acoustic treatments. Until you do these, you should use the HDMI connections from Oppo to Denon.


Kal, You dont think that the DACs in the Oppo are better then the Denons?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
If the OP loves his Speakers, I think he should stick with them. If they were Bose, I would completely understand. And Epik makes great Subwoofers so the Sentinel is definitely a building block.

Acoustic Treatments cannot be underestimated. No doubt of that. Given he has the SE, would it really be better to use HDMI over the multichannel input on the Denon?

I suppose another question is if the rest of the system needs upgrades, would it be advantageous to return or sell the SE since it is 900 Dollars and get a standard BDP-83 for 500 Dollars? If returnable, 400 Dollars would definitely help offset the upgrades. Especially if using HDMI and not even benefiting from the upgrades of the SE Model.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

tonyvdb said:


> Kal, You dont think that the DACs in the Oppo are better then the Denons?


Sure but I don't think you will get that much out of them. Just saying that I think the $1K can be used more effectively.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> If the OP loves his Speakers, I think he should stick with them. If they were Bose, I would completely understand. And Epik makes great Subwoofers so the Sentinel is definitely a building block.
> 
> Acoustic Treatments cannot be underestimated. No doubt of that. Given he has the SE, would it really be better to use HDMI over the multichannel input on the Denon?
> ...


I do not know the Denon, so I cannot know anything specific. So, I would tell the OP to try the analog and the HDMI routes and see what he thinks. What I do think is that it is too easy to buy electronics and hardware even though potential improvements there are small compared to what the same $$ buys with speakers and acoustics.


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## Mercatus (Jul 15, 2009)

JJ, thanks for the great audiogon suggestions, now let's see if i can get them to reduce their prices!

as for the room treatments, i understand the importance of these (and have been using them), but some of us still move around a lot and there's only so much we can do for temporary treatments (absorption panels on stands and bass traps minimally nailed into corners, etc). i'm young, don't have the best paying job (structural engineers don't make that much at my age), move around a lot and am getting married - so it's a pretty big balancing act to upgrade a home theater system, and right now, new two channel components are what i'm looking at (plus i can always push them into a secondary two channel listening room when i move into a big enough space, and the of course that room will require it's on room treatments, subwoofer, new speakers, etc. etc.)

my main interest in the separate two channel analog path is full utilization of the analog signal from the oppo SE. plus i've always heard that using dedicated two channel components is way better than using a home theater receiver for stereo. is this not true?

thanks for everyone's comments!


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Mercatus said:


> plus i've always heard that using dedicated two channel components is way better than using a home theater receiver for stereo. is this not true?


Yes, as a generalization.


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## Mercatus (Jul 15, 2009)

after all this i feel like what i should really be doing is what i usually do - purchase some components from a company that provides an easy 30 day return policy (like emotiva), test the products out to get a feel for what is possible, and then reevaluate at the end of the 30 days. this worked well for picking out my speakers and sub. it's so easy to get excited about this stuff and try to get answers from forums, but i have to take a deep breath and remember that if i really want to get the most out of this hobby what i really need is to experience as much as possible (although reading reviews and forums are also helpful), even if it wastes 50 bucks here and there for shipping costs.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
In home evaluation is hands down the best way to decide what you like. Is your OPPO returnable?
It is just at 900 Dollars, it really is an expensive Player. With that money alone, you could get a major upgrade to your speakers.
Cheers,
JJ


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## patchesj (Jun 17, 2009)

Aren't most "modern" HT pre-amps going to convert the analog inputs into digital anyway?? If not, the analog volume controls are going to introduce some noise. So you might as well keep the signal digital as far as possible, or go with a very clean/high end 2 channel pre-amp.


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## Mercatus (Jul 15, 2009)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> In home evaluation is hands down the best way to decide what you like. Is your OPPO returnable?
> It is just at 900 Dollars, it really is an expensive Player. With that money alone, you could get a major upgrade to your speakers.
> Cheers,
> JJ


it won't be returnable, i already had the oppo bdp-83 and sent it in to get upgraded. my thinking at the time was that i should start with the best possible source, and then i could upgrade components down the chain as my budget allowed. also the upgrade was only 299, and if i really feel like it was a waste of money, i'm pretty sure i can get a decent price on ebay.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Gotcha. And indeed you can get a princely sum on Ebay or Audiogon for the BDP-83 SE.
Cheers,
JJ


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## CasePro (Dec 23, 2009)

It sounds like you are asking for advice for what will make the most improvement in your sound but not liking the answers. Upgrading speakers, room treatment, and equalization are the way to go. 

Upgrading amp will only give you minimal difference in sound quality. The room that you are in has more effect on sound quality than anything else in your system. If you are dead set against trying room treatments, then look into equalization. I promise it will gain you more than anything you are going to do in the analog signal path or at the amp.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

I suggest you just use your money on something else in life. Weddings are expensive and you will want to take a great honeymoon if you can. Save your 1k for a nice honeymoon. Don't waste it on an upgrade that just doesn't make sense. 

Amp sections should make up 20 percent of the value of your system. IOTW a 1k amp is for 4k speakers not 320 dollar ones. As a guy who wasted too much on this hobby before my wedding/honeymoon. I suggest you put that extra cash into the honeymoon. Nothing like a trip to Hawaii or something like that to make for a great start.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

lsiberian said:


> I suggest you just use your money on something else in life. Weddings are expensive and you will want to take a great honeymoon if you can. Save your 1k for a nice honeymoon. Don't waste it on an upgrade that just doesn't make sense.
> 
> Amp sections should make up 20 percent of the value of your system. IOTW a 1k amp is for 4k speakers not 320 dollar ones. As a guy who wasted too much on this hobby before my wedding/honeymoon. I suggest you put that extra cash into the honeymoon. Nothing like a trip to Hawaii or something like that to make for a great start.


Right. You can always upgrade your system later. You will not likely have that opportunity again for the honeymoon.


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## Mercatus (Jul 15, 2009)

haha, definitely very good advice guys, but don't worry about me, i've got already got all my savings mapped out for the wedding, honeymoon (already have great plans), and eventually a future house down payment. and fortunately i've got a very cool fiance who understands my hobbies and works with me to make sure we always we have some expendable income in our budget. 

i'm actually getting this two channel gear at suggestion, as she really wants our study to eventually double as a stereo listening room, apart from our home theater system which is in the living room. she just doesn't want me to spend too much on it and i just want to make sure it's good enough make the stereo experience on the living room better than the denon while it's in there. 

i already did a comparison between the stereo analog outs and hdmi of the oppo into the denon (and compared the pure direct sound with the audyssey room corrected sound). we both agreed that the oppo sounded better going into the denon through the dedicated stereo analog outs with the receiver in pure direct mode.

as for room treatments, i said earlier that i DO have room treatments. absorption panels on stands and bass traps that are minimally mounted into the corners. that's about all i can do at for the room at my current apartment.

when i finally get a house, THEN i'll focus on full acoustic treatments and speakers. as far as i know these products need to demoed in the listening space they are going to exist in, why would I invest a lot of money (several thousands) in them now? later when i do get these better products, at least i'll have a lot of decent electronics, and if at that point i need to upgrade from an inexpensive preamp to a more high end unit, no biggie! the inexpensive gear can always be moved to other rooms, given to family members, etc.

ok then, i'm off to celebrate the new year now. i hope everyone else is having a great night with friends & family (or even if your on your own!)


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Mercatus said:


> haha, definitely very good advice guys, but don't worry about me, i've got already got all my savings mapped out for the wedding, honeymoon (already have great plans), and eventually a future house down payment. and fortunately i've got a very cool fiance who understands my hobbies and works with me to make sure we always we have some expendable income in our budget.
> 
> i'm actually getting this two channel gear at suggestion, as she really wants our study to eventually double as a stereo listening room, apart from our home theater system which is in the living room. she just doesn't want me to spend too much on it and i just want to make sure it's good enough make the stereo experience on the living room better than the denon while it's in there.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you got your head on your shoulders I'd suggest an eq setup over an amp setup. You could equalize your bass and get some really nice response that way


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## Mercatus (Jul 15, 2009)

do you have any suggestions for an eq setup?

i previously picked up one of those calibrated emm-6 microphones and was going to use it with REW to start getting an idea of the frequency response of the room in my current apartment. also planning on picking up a sub equalizer in the future, but unsure of which to get, obviously the behringer would be the cheapest option and would allow me to just play around, but eventually i'd prefer something like the audyssey system which would allow me to get a better response for multiple listening positions (along with a second sub).


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## Mercatus (Jul 15, 2009)

looks like i can get a bel canto pre6 used for 500. i've been reading reviews of it and it's pretty highly regarded (supposed to be great for 2 channel or multi, apparently even kal had one) and has an original msrp of 3800! anybody think i should jump on it? of course i'd still have to get an external analog bass manager like the outlaw icbm for stereo as the oppo only has bass management for multi channel, but that shouldn't be too expensive for a used unit.


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## dragonhd95 (Mar 6, 2010)

What about 2 UPA-1 Mono-block with USP-1. Sound will definitely better than your current Denon.


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## Mercatus (Jul 15, 2009)

dragonhd95 said:


> What about 2 UPA-1 Mono-block with USP-1. Sound will definitely better than your current Denon.


i actually just ordered two of these. they should be delivered today. at the price and the return policy, i figured why not? i can at least play around with them and maybe borrow an amp or two from someone for some comparisons.


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## Mercatus (Jul 15, 2009)

wow, did not like the upa-1 amps. returned them. visited a high end stereo store in the area (deja vu audio) and got the chance to borrow a tube amp. rocked my world.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
You are truly blessed to have a local Hifi Store. And I completely understand the allure of Tube Amplifiers. Truly something magical to them. My younger brother uses Rogue M-180 Monoblocks on his 2 channel rig with Focal Elektra BE Speakers and the results are truly stunning.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Mercatus said:


> wow, did not like the usp-1 amps. returned them. visited a high end stereo store in the area (deja vu audio) and got the chance to borrow a tube amp. rocked my world.


I wonder did said tube amp cost $708 dollars?


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## Mercatus (Jul 15, 2009)

no, 1400 retail unfortunately. but found the same one used on audiogon for 750. still definitely worth the price difference. the tubes could go loud and still be really pleasant to listen to. the upa-1 amps kind of made me cringe when i turned them up.


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