# How many are using external amp with AVR's?



## padgman1

Just curious.......wondering how many of the HTS faithful are using external amps to power their systems through an AVR? If so, are you using them to provide dynamic capability that the AVR cannot ( for you) or for some other reason ( electrostatic speakers, low impedance speakers, etc.)?

I am satisfied with the features and power of my Denon 2113ci with my Arx A5's and PSA XV15 in my 2000ft3 ( I listen at relatively low levels not approaching THX levels), but have wondered for months now if a more powerful amp would make a difference( knowing I would need to change to a AVR that has preouts as my Denon sadly does not). Most of what I have read on this forum and others would suggest otherwise, but I still have this "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" feeling........


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## rkeman

The use of separate amplifiers really depends on the loudspeakers and desired listening level. The Pi Speakers 6Pi cornerhorns and 3Pi center and surround speakers in my system go a long way on a little power and present a benign load to the amplifier. The Onkyo TX-NR3009 AVR that drives the speakers has been supplemented by a variety of high quality amplifiers at times with little or no improvement. Separate components could become more attractive if the preamplifier/processor offered performance or features unavailable in receivers.


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## gorb

I use an amp for my left and right speakers. The only reason why I'm using it is because I already had it available. I haven't done any a/b testing to see if I could hear any difference, but it pretty much sounded the same without the amp


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## tonyvdb

I run a Samson Servo 600 on my mains only. Its simply to reduce the heat load on the receiver. My Onkyo 805 is more than capable running all 7 channels on its own as it was bench tested to do 120watts all channels driven 20-20,000Hz


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## nova

I have a Denon 3805 an Acurus A250 for the mains and an Acurus 200X3 for the center and surrounds. My speakers are not the most efficient or inefficient for that matter at 4 ohm and 88dB (2.83V @ 1 Meter). I picked up the A250 to take the load off the Denon and the 200X3, well, because I could. I don't suppose I really need them but they do seem to control the bass better than the 3805.


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## Diamonddelts

At this point I would never, ever let a avr power any of my speakers. I've owned over a dozen avrs on the years. The most powerful avr I ever owned was the old flagship Onkyo TX-NR1000 which was rated at 150 watts per channel. However, when I began using 7 speakers it would clip regularly.

If someone is using smaller bookshelf or satellite designs, a typical avr should be more than adequate. However for powering large monitors or tower speakers I would only use external amps. I love all tower speaker or large monitor setups so I only use external amps from here on out. Also, the dynamics with my speakers were much, much better using an external amp rather than a avr.


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## chashint

I find it interesting how often I see speaker size instead of impedance and sensitivity related to amplification requirements on the various audio forums.
The physical size of the speaker is not a very good indicator of what the amplification requirements are going to be.


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## padgman1

Good responses so far.............thanks.

Diamonddelts, what pro speakers are you running? Are they very sensitive ( > 92 db/2.83V)?


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## tonyvdb

Diamonddelts said:


> At this point I would never, ever let a avr power any of my speakers. I've owned over a dozen avrs on the years. The most powerful avr I ever owned was the old flagship Onkyo TX-NR1000 which was rated at 150 watts per channel. However, *when I began using 7 pro speakers it would clip regularly*.


Ya, I would have to question this also. That Onkyo 1000 was a beast of a receiver. And prior to the 805 that I own it was the flagship receiver to beat as far as output. It should never have clipped or ran out of steam.


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## chashint

I use the AVR's built in amplifiers.

If I win the Marantz processor I will probably buy an Outlaw amp to go with it and either give my VSX-23 to my son or finally talk my wife into letting me put surround sound in her Princess room.


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## Architect7

Anthem MRX-500 and Rotel RB-980BX amps for my line arrays and RB-976 for my surrounds. Mostly because I have them but also to provide for peak power for big transients...I like to listen loud.


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## chashint

padgman1 said:


> Are they very sensitive ( > 92 db/2.83V)?


Sensitivity specified by voltage instead of power can be deceiving.


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## Diamonddelts

tonyvdb said:


> Ya, I would have to question this also. That Onkyo 1000 was a beast of a receiver. And prior to the 805 that I own it was the flagship receiver to beat as far as output. It should never have clipped or ran out of steam.


At the time I was using 7 Cerwin Vega CLS 215 speakers. It sounded superb. But it would clip regularly with all seven channels being driven at somewhat high volumes of around 110db on movies.


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## Diamonddelts

padgman1 said:


> Good responses so far.............thanks.
> 
> Diamonddelts, what pro speakers are you running? Are they very sensitive ( > 92 db/2.83V)?


Im using two Yorkville U215 speakers as mains and five Yorkville U15 speakers as surrounds/center. They are rated at 98db sensitivity each.


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## whitey019

Yamaha RX-A1000 with a Anthem MCA 20 for the mains.


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## tonyvdb

Diamonddelts said:


> At the time I was using 7 Cerwin Vega CLS 215 speakers. It sounded superb. But it would clip regularly with all seven channels being driven at somewhat high volumes of around 110db on movies.


If you were running them full range that's understandable. They are not small speakers.


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## moparz10

i'm running yamaha rxv-3900 with a emotiva upa2 for the mains,quite happy with it.


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## Diamonddelts

tonyvdb said:


> If you were running them full range that's understandable. They are not small speakers.




Yes sir I was running them all in full range mode without a sub at the time.


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## nova

I dunno Tony, I would think those Cerwin Vega's would hit 110 db with less than 16 watts, should have been no problem at all for that Onkyo.


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## tonyvdb

nova said:


> I dunno Tony, I would think those Cerwin Vega's would hit 110 db with less than 16 watts, should have been no problem at all for that Onkyo.


Don't forget they are 4ohm and probably dip down to 2ohm at times. All 7 channels would be really hard on a receiver.


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## lcaillo

I have the Onkyo TX-NR709 and I have used it with my 5 channel Rotel amp and am now just using the internal amps in my 5.1 system, with my Adcom amp driving my subs. Frankly, I have not been able to tell any difference. Even when I push the system very hard, I don't feel like I am missing anything with the internal amps.


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## Jon Liu

I most definitely use a powered separate (I guess I have to since mine's just a pre/pro anyway). But after years and years of using an AVR, then I transitioned using pre-outs on AVRs to an external amp, I finally decided to jump on separates entirely. I just cannot go back. Especially for my GR-Research LS-9's the more power fed to them, the more they sing.


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## padgman1

Sounds like 50-50 so far between separate amp and just AVR...interesting.

Anyone gone from separates to AVR only? Any big differences?


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## phazewolf

I see it this way. If your crossing over the speakers at 80hz and sending all the bass to a sub a separate amp most likely will not be something you would need. On a lot but not all the hard to drive phase angle's and nasty low ohm stuff is below that point. But if your driving a speaker full range a lot of avr may not like what it is seeing and could clip.

That being said I have a few amps I run sense I run my speakers full range for music as I like how they sound and my speakers would not like being driven by a avr one bit trust me I have tried in the past. It cooked all six tweeters when it clipped and that $300 that cost to fix sucked.

To me all all depends on the speakers you own. Just because it is small does not mean easy to drive and the ohm rating can let's just say can be way off from what they claim it to be.


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## JBrax

I'm running my Klipsch Reference series setup with a Onkyo tx-nr809. I've never had any problems nor detected any clipping. I have thought about adding an Emotiva amp into the equation but that would have been more for aesthetics than anything else.


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## typ44q

I am using a Emotiva XPA3 amp along with my Onkyo 805 to power my Polk LSi 9 and LSi C speakers and the internal amp for the surrounds. I know the 805 has a great amp section but the 4ohm Polks along with relatively low sensitivity almost demanded it. I ran them for a while using just the receiver power and when I finally decided to add the amp it was like getting new speakers, I was amazed at how big a difference it made.
In the theater I will have my Sherwood 972 along with a Emotiva UPA7 to power everything in there (3 Polk 265RT's, 2 FXiA6's and 2 65RT's)


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## ewardjr69

I just recently moved to separates I previously had a Onkyo 3008 with an Emotiva XPA-3. I am 7.2 GoldenEar and I had the Emotiva running LRC. I feel it's better to have the power and not need it all then to need it and not have it. Plus external AMP gives you flexibility if you upgrade later.


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## fokakis1

phazewolf said:


> I see it this way. If your crossing over the speakers at 80hz and sending all the bass to a sub a separate amp most likely will not be something you would need.


There's a lot of truth to this. Low frequencies absorb the majority of an amp's power. Unless the room is large and/or the speakers are hard to drive the above configuration should be sufficient. An external amp may not be needed, but that doesn't mean it isn't still wanted.


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## tonyvdb

There was a test done recently and posted here that a simple hard hit of a snare drum on a system set up to test how much power is required for various sounds. It drew 250watts. The speakers used were 87db efficient and the level was set to 75db. 
It goes to show that headroom is very important.


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## padgman1

tonyvdb said:


> There was a test done recently and posted here that a simple hard hit of a snare drum on a system set up to test how much power is required for various sounds. It drew 250watts. The speakers used were 87db efficient and the level was set to 75db.
> It goes to show that headroom is very important.


Tony,

Was that test done on a system with a separate amp or an AVR? Did the amp/AVR clip during this test? Would your Onkyo 805 clip with this test?

These are the sort of things amateurs like myself would like to know before shelling out $$$ for equipment we may not need..........or maybe DO need......

I do know my Denon AVR is powering my Arx A5's enough for my listening level, which is quite tame compared to most (wife is sensitive to loud sound).......will it be enough when I eventually complete the 5.1 Arx/PSA system?? Only time will tell......


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## tonyvdb

It was done with a separate amp. You need to remember that things like a snare drum are momentary loads and not maintained. Most amps have headroom well above their rated output for those quick peaks its when its maintained for more than a couple seconds that you run into problems.

I am looking for that article about the test and will link to it as soon as I find it.


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## tonyvdb

Found it Here


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## Wardsweb

I run an Onkyo TX-NR929 for all the surrounds. I use line level out for the mains to an Electrovoice DX-38 active crossover that feeds a pair of Ampzilla 2000 monoblocks for the main's bass bins and a Jamo amp for the main's horns. The bass bins can use the extra power pushing dual 12's in each cabinet.


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## primetimeguy

tonyvdb said:


> Found it Here


Interesting and put me in the shocked category. But also skeptical. 200 times more power from a snared drum thwack? No mention of the amp they used for this. Assuming it had that power available, and did they hear it clip?


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## tonyvdb

Don't think it matters what amp was used, it does say that there are sounds in the mids and upper frequencies that will also task an amp not just low frequencies.


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## nova

I don't think I'd worry too much about those ARX's. They are pretty efficient and should easily hit 92 db at 15 feet using only about 20 watts, that leaves you quite a bit of headroom. So, sounds like you are probably listening at less than 85 db, if so you're only looking at about 5 watts, so even the most dynamic music or soundtrack should be no problem for your system, unless I did my math wrong?


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## primetimeguy

tonyvdb said:


> Don't think it matters what amp was used, it does say that there are sounds in the mids and upper frequencies that will also task an amp not just low frequencies.


Right, was more curious about what its rated power was compared to the 250W measurement and how it sounded during those passages. Not discounting the data but want more context around it. If this was the only instance of such a thing maybe it was a problem with the recording. With this specific music, did they try it at louder levels? I guess it is what it is, just one data point. But I have never seem anyone determine that much power needed with moderately high sensitivity and moderate volume so looking for more info and details to make sure there were not other factors causing it.


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## tonyvdb

Just remeber that an amp rated for even 80watts can momentarily put out much more. Have you ever listened to a snare drum up close? Trust me there is a lot of energy in that "thwack"


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## primetimeguy

tonyvdb said:


> Just remeber that an amp rated for even 80watts can momentarily put out much more. Have you ever listened to a snare drum up close? Trust me there is a lot of energy in that "thwack"


Yes, but they don't seem to imply that it is nothing to worry about it because it is just an instantaneous peak.


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## tonyvdb

What I suggest you do is see if you can borrow an amp and try it out and see if you hear a difference. I personally don't think you will given how efficient your speakers are but that said my speakers are 96 db efficient (EV sentry 500 studio monitors) and the meters on my Samson amp that's 300wats per channel often hit 0db when I'm listening to music loud at around 90db ( I run my mains full range)


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## primetimeguy

tonyvdb said:


> What I suggest you do is see if you can borrow an amp and try it out and see if you hear a difference. I personally don't think you will given how efficient your speakers are but that said my speakers are 96 db efficient (EV sentry 500 studio monitors) and the meters on my Samson amp that's 300wats per channel often hit 0db when I'm listening to music loud at around 90db ( I run my mains full range)


Twice over the last few years I've tried external amps...never made a difference that I could tell, so I returned them. That's not really the issue. Just looking for more details on that link as I remain skeptical as to what is really means if anything.


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## 3dbinCanada

I drive my PSB Image suite of speakers using a Yamaha RX-V1800 AVR. When watching movies, I offload all bass to the sub. When listening to 2 channel music, I run my mains full range. If you take a look at my HT space, you will notice that its not a very big space to fill. I can easily hit 90 dbs + without hearing strain be it in HT or 2 channel mode. Because I'm able to hit that loudness level without strain, I'm of the opinion that using external amps will not help my situation improve upon the sound. That's my situation. I do believe external amps are beneficial if the speakers present a difficult load to drive electrically and one wants to listen to music at high SPLs in a large room.


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## padgman1

Tony, thanks for the link to that article - very interesting.

Some good conversation and good points made here - thanks, everyone.

I agree, Nova, I think I probably don't need any more power for now......and probably won't until I get the Arx A2 center channel and A1bs as surrounds implemented into the system........when I find time....


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## GusGus748s

I've got 2 Outlaw M2200 monoblock amps driving my front left / right. I've got 3 Outlaw M200 monoblock amps driving my center and surround left / right speakers. :hsd:


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## lcaillo

lcaillo said:


> I have the Onkyo TX-NR709 and I have used it with my 5 channel B&K amp and am now just using the internal amps in my 5.1 system, with my Adcom amp driving my subs. Frankly, I have not been able to tell any difference. Even when I push the system very hard, I don't feel like I am missing anything with the internal amps.


I said B&K but meant Rotel. My 5 channel amp is the Rotel RB-985. I also have a stereo B&K and I have repeatedly compared them to the AVR, and even to my old Yamaha RX-900 receiver and can't tell a difference in stereo or 5.1 listening. I do tend to run out of power when I use one of these for the subwoofers. I typically use the Adcom GFA-5400 for the subs with no problem.


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## phazewolf

With my Polk SDA SRS 2.3 running them full range and using a avr not what I own now I could clip the amp without a issue. I was playing the 1812 overture with a average level at 90db from 12 feet away. When a cannon would go off my amp would clip hard and the sound was nasty. 

Give it a try with no subs and run your speakers full range fun times for sure.


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## padgman1

Bear with me, this is going to be a long post........

So I looked up every respondent to this thread and found the power their amps produced ( 20Hz-20kHz, 2 channels, 8 ohms, unless otherwise specified).....

rkeman Onkyo Tx-NR3009 140W x 9

gorb Yamaha Rx-V667 90W x 7 with Denon POA-2400A (mains) 200W x 2

tonyvdb Onkyo 805 130W x 7 with Samson Servo 600 ( mains) 300w X 2 at 4 ohms, 600W mono
at 8 ohms

nova Denon 3805 120W x 7 with Acurus A250 (mains) 250w x 2, Acurus 200W x 3 for center,
surrounds

diamonddelts ??

chashint Pioneer VSX23-TXH 110W x 7

architect7 Anthem MRX-500 100w x 2, 75W x 5 with Rotel RB-980BX (mains) 120W x 2, 
Rotel RB-976 (surrounds) 60W x 4

whitey019 Yamaha RX-A1000 105W x 7 with Anthem MCA20( mains) 225W x 2

moparz10 Yamaha RXV-3900 140W x 7 with Emotiva UPA2 ( mains) 125W x 2

lcaillo Onkyo TX-NR709 110W x 7 with Rotel RB-985 (mains) 100W x 5

jon liu DSonic M2500-7 525W x 3, 250W x 4

jbrax Onkyo TX-NR709 110W x 7

tvp449 Onkyo 805 130W x 7 with Emotiva XPA3( L/C/R) 200W x 3

ewardjr69 Onkyo 3008 140W x 9 with Emotiva XPA3 ( L/C/R) 200W x 3

wardsweb Ampzilla 2000 200W each with Onkyo TX-NR929 ( surrounds) 160W x 9 (6 ohms)
Jamo amp (??which one)

3dbincanada Yamaha RX-V1800 130W x 7

gusgus748s Pioneer SC-1522-K ( unknown power,< 130W x 9) with Outlaw M2200 (L/R) 200W each and 
Outlaw M200 ( center/surrounds) 200W each

Results..........

Only 2 people ( out of 17) using separates - Jon liu and diamonddelts

12 people using additional amp(s) with their AVR

Most people using Class A/B amps for additional power - Tonyvdb and jon liu using Class D amps 

Most respondents using amps for additional power that are at best double the power of their AVR; some are using amps that are just above the stated power of their AVR for 2 channels. Tonvdb and jon liu using "monster" amps compared to rest.


I conclude that many people are using additional amps with an AVR to achieve a purpose that they believe their AVR cannot accomplish alone - whether that be for ( perceived) sound quality, better dynamic capability, "destressing" the AVR so that it can power multiple additional speakers, or other use. It seems most are using amps that will "get the job done" that are similar in power to their AVR's 2-channel power specs - ones that probably would not increase SPL's over the AVR if only 2 channels were utilized, but might definitely increase SPL's in a multispeaker system where the AVR's power specs would decline, sometimes precipitously, trying to power them all.

Comments??


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## phazewolf

Last I knew my parasound HCA-3500 was not a avr  It puts out around 500 watts into 4 ohms

And the rest of my speakers are driven by my sunfire amp which outputs 200 watts into 8 ohms and 400 into 4 ohms.


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## Architect7

My Rotel 980 amps are one each bridged to my mains so almost 5x AVR power (360w). Same with the 976's, 2x AVR power for surrounds (150w) and 4x AVR power for my center (biamped, 150x2).


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## phazewolf

I have no choice but to use a separate amp sense I run a pre pro which has no amps on it's own. 

When I was using a avr and with the setup I was using as far as speakers I could clip the amp without a issue and it was not very loud.

Some speakers just don't play well with avr's that's all. With the amp I own now I can cause the speakers to bottom out so I need to be very careful but the amp is not cooking my tweeters now so happy times there.


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## typ44q

My lcr speakers are 4 ohms which the Onkyo 805 is technically not even supposed to drive (although it does just fine) and the XPA3 is rated at 330 watts per channel with a 4 Ohm load (with headroom to spare) which you did not factor into your chart.
The other big thing is that most avr's can not deliver the power that they claim especially when all the channels are driven. This is an area where most external amps excel.
I can tell you that with my setup there was a rather noticeable difference after adding the external amp.


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## phazewolf

My speakers send a signal to a pair of drivers in the opposite cabinet out of phase your ears only hear the speaker they should be hearing. This can make them hard to drive however I also changed out some inductors which dropped there rating even more then before.

I had a friend that tried to drive a pair of Kappa 9's with a avr after I told him it would end very badly. It killed a few drivers magic smoke is not good to see.


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## Architect7

phazewolf said:


> My speakers send a signal to a pair of drivers in the opposite cabinet out of phase your ears only hear the speaker they should be hearing. This can make them hard to drive however I also changed out some inductors which dropped there rating even more then before.


I have read that Golden Ear does this with their sound bars. Does it work well with your speakers? I've thought of trying this myself.


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## phazewolf

With some songs it is great others not so much it depends. The new speakers I am getting will be here Sunday night I can't wait.

I am upgrading to a pair of Legacy audio Focus SE will see how it goes.


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## Architect7

Awesome, I love Legacy! Best of luck


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## Chucka

I am curious if thoses using an external amplifier made their choice before or after they purchased their AVR?


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## GusGus748s

Chucka said:


> I am curious if thoses using an external amplifier made their choice before or after they purchased their AVR?


I upgraded my AVR with the intentions to get external amps.:T


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## typ44q

Chucka said:


> I am curious if thoses using an external amplifier made their choice before or after they purchased their AVR?


My decision was after. I purchased my speakers when I had this old Yamaha avr which was way under powered and was pre hdmi I upgraded to the onkyo 805 mainly for hdmi switching and for the HD audio codecs but it also had a very good amp section which really helped with the sound quality but it still was lacking. When I purchased the external amp I immediately regretted not getting it sooner.


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## whitey019

padgman1, you nailed it for the most part. I added the Anthem to free up the AVR channels (3ch, 5.1) so that they could more closely reach their full potential. This was primarily for music, multi-ch music, but it also helps for heavy movie soundtracks.


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## padgman1

Phazewolf, my "table" of respondents did not include you........sorry.........but I did not see you post your components in any of your posts in this thread.

Architect, I did not take into account those who might bridge their amps to provide additional power. This would help to boost power needs as necessary.

******, thanks for the comment.


Chucka, I think that is a great question that would be a good poll question for this or other forums........

For those who have "easy driving" speakers ( 6-8 ohm with minimal impedance no less than 4-5 ohms) and use external amps, do the amps provide "something" besides SPL's that the AVR's amps cannot?


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## lcaillo

I am not actually using my amp but am using the AVR. Never could tell a difference.

Good work, thanks for compiling the info.


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## Jon Liu

Great compilation! My speakers are fairly easy to drive, but they do love power and shine with more of it. I actually ran them with an Emotiva amp @ 200wpc for a short little while, but decided to try them with a good deal more amplification.

The nice thing (and to some of us, the fault) of this hobby is differences are subjective. Different rooms, different equipment, and then finally different hearing acuity all play a major factor in it all. Some just don't hear the difference, which in the long run saves them quite a bit of money to achieve the same level of satisfaction!


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## phazewolf

Let me toss this into the pot for everyone to think about. If you have a avr with a auto correct system as many of us do think for a second how it works. They will not boost too much but they will boost some. 

So say there is a small dip at 70hz and it applied a 3db boost now your using a lot more power at that frequently. The power on tap can run dry really fast when you start to fix things.

In my eyes the purpose of home theater system is to recreate the movie in you own room. That is normally not going to be playing peaks at 70db nice and quiet it tends to be loud and that takes power.

Now I am not saying that you need 5kw per channel but for my purpose a avr could never cut it.


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## typ44q

The other big issue is that most AVR's can not deliver the power that they claim especially when all the channels are driven. So when you say this external amp "only" has 50 or 100 watts more per channel the reality of it is that the external amp has the potential of delivering much more power than most AVRs.
I know where are exceptions on both sides but in general an external amp is more capable of keeping up with high demand, very dynamic audio.


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## NBPk402

I am going to be using separate power amps... not for more power but in order to bi-amp 5 channels.


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## 3dbinCanada

phazewolf said:


> Let me toss this into the pot for everyone to think about. If you have a avr with a auto correct system as many of us do think for a second how it works. They will not boost too much but they will boost some.
> 
> So say there is a small dip at 70hz and it applied a 3db boost now your using a lot more power at that frequently. The power on tap can run dry really fast when you start to fix things.
> 
> In my eyes the purpose of home theater system is to recreate the movie in you own room. That is normally not going to be playing peaks at 70db nice and quiet it tends to be loud and that takes power.
> 
> Now I am not saying that you need 5kw per channel but for my purpose a avr could never cut it.


You are forgetting that bass gets off loaded to the subwoofer in most applications so the AVR is not amplifying 70Hz. Its simply passing a 3db increased preamp signal to the subwoofer.


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## 3dbinCanada

typ44q said:


> The other big issue is that most AVR's can not deliver the power that they claim especially when all the channels are driven. So when you say this external amp "only" has 50 or 100 watts more per channel the reality of it is that the external amp has the potential of delivering much more power than most AVRs.
> I know where are exceptions on both sides but in general an external amp is more capable of keeping up with high demand, very dynamic audio.


There are very few examples if any that blurays spread the entire frequency spectrum of the mains to all of the other channels. The all channels driven test is not a realistic indicator of an AVR's power capabilities.


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## Putz

Salk HT3s are low efficiency and love watts. I use a Classe CA200 for them and have a Yamaha RX1800 for the rest. My Sub was retired when I got the Salks as they go really low.


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## rencan

I use my AVR/SC-57 for the two back surrounds only. Use an XPA-5 for the rest of my speakers.
All Polk Audio LSi's. They are 4 ohm speakers. They are the reason i installed a separate amp and yes there was a difference for me.


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## annamiata

I am using five Kenwood KMX-1000 THX amps in bridge mode to drive five Boston Acoustics 555x THX . I also use two Kenwood KM-Z1 THXultra amps to drive seven full range Boston Acoustics T1030 and T930. Cross frequencies at 80Hz.


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## |Tch0rT|

I use a Marantz MM9000 amp with my MartinLogan ESL's. I previously used my receiver. I did notice a difference but only on a few things. Mostly increased dynamics. I went separates for more headroom and that ESL's are generally a little harder on amps than conventional speaker types.


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## littlejohn74

IMO, there really is no replacement for displacement.
Sure, most AVRs will do an OK job of driving 5 or more channels, but what external power amps give you is headroom. The reality is, speakers are more likely to be damaged by clipping than being over driven and if you use a pro audio amp like the Crown XLS 1500, which is not very expensive then you have more headroom than you know what to do with.

At low listening levels, I guess it matters little. But for the times when you really want to crank up the volume, there is no way an AVR will compete with a separate power amp.


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## Brad S

I am late to the thread by I run (2) Emotiva XPA-5's for my L-C-R, sides, sides and rears and a Crest CA-6 for my main sub


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## 3dbinCanada

littlejohn74 said:


> At low listening levels, I guess it matters little. But for the times when you really want to crank up the volume, there is no way an AVR will compete with a separate power amp.


It depends on the room size and the load. In my situation given the speakers and the room size, my AVR does a great job driving my speakers well into the 90db without strain so I don't need a separate power amp.


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## BeeMan458

padgman1 said:


> I am satisfied with the features and power of my Denon 2113ci with my Arx A5's and PSA XV15 in my 2000ft3 ( I listen at relatively low levels not approaching THX levels), but have wondered for months now if a more powerful amp would make a difference( knowing I would need to change to a AVR that has preouts as my Denon sadly does not). Most of what I have read on this forum and others would suggest otherwise, but I still have this "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" feeling........


Come on over. The grass "IS" greener on the other side of the fence. We recently upgraded from a Marantz SR5007 to a Denon AVR4520CI. At louder volumes, the SR5007 could not keep up and I could hear the amplifiers in the 5007 falling behind the output of inexpensive subwoofer.

Here's a review of the 4520CI and note the comments at the end of the review, regarding "NOT" needing outboard amplifiers. We also upgraded the blu-ray player and the subwoofers.

From what I've gleaned online, the 4520 is 125w capable, 8ohm, all channels driven and is 4ohm capable and easily able to drive those hard to drive speakers during difficult passages.

We running Klipsch Epic CF-3s for mains that were manufactured back in the days of Paul Klipsch being at the helm, so the sensitivity rating of 100dB/1w/1m are true anechoic readings and aren't inflated sensitivity numbers as Klipsch is accused of posting these days. The CC is a Klipsch RC-64 II @ 99dB/2.83v/1m.

For us, the benefit of the 4520, we don't have need for the additional expense of an outboard Amp nor do we need to use additional space needed for a couple of outboard amplifiers not to mention not needing all those extra connector cables and with the sensitivity of the Klipsch speakers, dialed in using XT32/SubEQ HT, we have no trouble driving the system at continuous reference level output without worry of the top of the AVR getting more than hand warm and there's no speaker fade as the amplifier runs out of amperage to keep the speaker level at full on reference level: win, win, win, win, win.

FWIW, we listen at -17.5dBfs, MVC, EQ'd flat. The added house curve is +10dB/ea for the two subs and +6dB for the CC using the level sliders found in the AVR's main speaker menu. Very nice.


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## nova

I agree with some of the others. My Denon 3805, IIRC, bench tested about 114 wpc and I believe the Acurus A250 was just about 400 wpc. That's a considerable difference.


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## B- one

I think the A-250 is 250 watts at 8 ohms and 350 at 4 Ohms. I've been looking at a lot of amps for sale lately. Not that I couldn't be wrong. I have a B&K amp that's 125 watts, that I haven't used. Looking for a 3 channel 200 watt amp to change stuff up in the future.


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## rselby

I only use my AVR ( onkyo tx nr 818) as a pre /pro...have 3 onkyo M 504 running surrounds , center and rear, ADCOM GFA 5500 for my mains...I feel you can never have too much power!


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## sawzalot

I paired up my Pioneer SC-37 with An EMO XPA-3 .
I have not noticed any differences at all as the Pioneer is more than ample however the Pioneer runs a lot cooler and surely will never work too hard while paired to the EMO, I like the set up.


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## littlejohn74

3dbinCanada said:


> It depends on the room size and the load. In my situation given the speakers and the room size, my AVR does a great job driving my speakers well into the 90db without strain so I don't need a separate power amp.


I think is one of the fundamental truths, and material you're listening to should also be included.
Apart from the fact that everyone has a different set of ears, everyone has different equipment and their use case also varies.

I find that for movies absolute clarity and musical nuances isn't as important as when listening to music in 2 channel. With movies, I am after the "punch in the guts" type of sound
Whereas when I listen to SACDs etc, I find that every little detail or musical nuance contributes to the overall pleasure.
This is where I find the difference between separates and integrateds is more noticeable, even at lower listening volumes.


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## nova

B- one said:


> I think the A-250 is 250 watts at 8 ohms and 350 at 4 Ohms. I've been looking at a lot of amps for sale lately. Not that I couldn't be wrong. I have a B&K amp that's 125 watts, that I haven't used. Looking for a 3 channel 200 watt amp to change stuff up in the future.


Those are the official specs, I believe the bench test was a bit higher. I highly recommend a used Acurus 200X3 if you're looking for a 200+ wpc 3 ch amp. May also consider an Emotiva XPA-3 if you want new.


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## B- one

nova said:


> Those are the official specs, I believe the bench test was a bit higher. I highly recommend a used Acurus 200X3 if you're looking for a 200+ wpc 3 ch amp. May also consider an Emotiva XPA-3 if you want new.


I have seen a couple of the Acurus amps for sale that's what I am leaning towards.


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## 3dbinCanada

littlejohn74 said:


> I think is one of the fundamental truths, and material you're listening to should also be included.
> Apart from the fact that everyone has a different set of ears, everyone has different equipment and their use case also varies.
> 
> I find that for movies absolute clarity and musical nuances isn't as important as when listening to music in 2 channel. With movies, I am after the "punch in the guts" type of sound
> Whereas when I listen to SACDs etc, I find that every little detail or musical nuance contributes to the overall pleasure.
> This is where I find the difference between separates and integrateds is more noticeable, even at lower listening volumes.


I think that extra punch during low levels is more of a placebo affect. During low level, there is no way that one is drawing on the power reserves of either an external amp or an AVR. Its when one places high volume demands and thereby increasing power demands is where the power comes in. I know in my situation that I will not benefit from a power amp. My AVR provides all the punch I need and my speakers are very revealing and I hear all the nuances in my music.


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## padgman1

^^^^^^ I agree with you, 3dbincanada, and I also listen at low to moderate levels. At these levels, with amps that can handle the impedance of the speakers used, there probably is no difference in sound between said amps, regardless of power produced...........

Which begs another question or two.........for those of you using external amps, at what typical volumes are you listening?? And at what listening position distance??


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## Putz

I sit about 10 feet away from my speakers. I like to listen loud because I can and because it sounds good to me. Took a few years and more than a few dollars to get to that point. The separates and the tubed Preamp definitely made a difference. Since I listen to mostly vinyl and have large inefficient speakers, that also played into my choices.


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## annamiata

Maybe you have not encountered and or listen to a "overkill/ powered" home theater system. There are so much sounds and effects from now a day movies that a typical receiver with push and pull type of amplification can play without producing distortions. Yes most of the time, I can not tell the difference from using external amps. However, there were times of "Wow" factors when I heard a pin drop without pink noise and my sofa shaked like the room going to an earth quake without the woofers rattling and booming. Same reason of a V8, V10, V12 engines, you don't need all the reserved HP going 70-mph. But when you need it...its there.


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## BeeMan458

Just in case this point was missed, stating the obvious, vinyl, tubes and inefficient speakers are a different world than Home Theater.

(love the V-10.........can't afford a V-12)

...


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## tonyvdb

padgman1 said:


> Which begs another question or two.........for those of you using external amps, at what typical volumes are you listening?? And at what listening position distance??


I listen to movies at just below reference. Music it all depends on my mood and if Im actually listening or if its just in the background but if Im sitting and listening to music I normally have it between 75 and 90db at my listening position thats at 12ft from the speakers.
My EV sentrys are 95db efficient but still like the extra power.


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## BeeMan458

padgman1 said:


> Which begs another question or two.........for those of you using external amps, at what typical volumes are you listening?? And at what listening position distance??


Since this question was asked after my post, I'm quoting this part forward:

"FWIW, we listen at -17.5dBfs, MVC, EQ'd flat. The added house curve is +10dB/ea for the two subs and +6dB for the CC using the level sliders found in the AVR's main speaker menu. Very nice."

The MLP is 10' from the front subwoofer. The driver of the nearfield placed subwoofer is 3' from my back. And the LCR are 10' from the MLP.

I need to address this point in your above question; with the AVR we have (Denon AVR4520CI), it's amplifier section is so robust, outboard amplifiers are not necessary to achieve and maintain continuous reference level play.


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## phazewolf

How many of you have hooked a o-scope to your amp and watch to see of it really is clipping or not? I know several people that when they we're playing music for me I could hear clipping and they did not know what it was until I pointed it out.

There are lots of speakers that are easy to drive and there plenty that would burn up a avr without a second thought. 

Just because a amp and make X amount of watts don't really mean much. What I like to know is how many ohms can it handle and for how long can it do such. A avr is not going to handle a speaker that drops down to .8ohms and there are several out there that can do such. Even 1 or 2 ohms can bring some good so called high power amps to there knees without much effort. 

If you want to know how easy a speaker is look at the phase Angle and how many ohms it drops too over it curve. 

Companies can call a speaker 8 ohms or 4 ohms all they want but most times if a curve is posted you will see it go all over the place and trust me it is well below said number.


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## BeeMan458

Being dumb as a bag of hammers has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Just saying, in my opinion, it would be safe to say impedance curves and phase angles are a bit outside the paygrade of a layperson.


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## phazewolf

Things like phase angels maybe hard to understand but if you want to know how something is going to handle a AC load it is something you need to understand. 

A bench test of a amp is all but useless as it tests into a dummy load and does not represent what a speaker with several drivers over a vast range of frequencies can present to a amp.

Sure a bench test can show you what a amp can do all channels driven into a resistor but what happens when some caps are added to the mix?

All I am trying to say is this is not something you can look at a paper and say yep 250 watts and can handle 8 ohms my speakers will work with this amp all the way to reference levels in my home theater.


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## nova

My speakers are not as efficient and easy to drive as some, I also run them full range because to me they sound better that way. My speakers have 12" woofers that many others don't have and I would think that most people could hear the same differences that I hear when using the Acurus. I also agree with the low volume comments, I can't tell a difference, they sound great when powered by either the Denon or the Acurus.


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## BeeMan458

phazewolf said:


> Sure a bench test can show you what a amp can do all channels driven into a resistor but what happens when some caps are added to the mix?
> 
> All I am trying to say is this is not something you can look at a paper and say yep 250 watts and can handle 8 ohms my speakers will work with this amp all the way to reference levels in my home theater.


That's why I ask and that's why I purchased the AVR we have. My final decision was based on Sonnie's final comments in his review of the AVR we purchased.

Summing It Up

In conclusion, I am thoroughly impressed with this unit. It has about all the features you could ask for in a receiver/processor and ample power to accommodate most any speaker system. *I initially intended on reviewing it and then selling it, but instead I have already sold my Onkyo 5508, XPA-3 amp and XPA-1 monoblocks.* I keep thinking to myself that the 4520 seems to be a little on the pricey side, but if you consider what any other processor with the same features would cost you and then add the expense of amplification, the 4520 price actually sounds like a bargain. I think the most surprising part of my experience with the 4520 has been its ability to drive my MartinLogan speakers effortlessly. I had almost given up on ever trying receiver power because I have always read and heard that the Prodigy’s pretty much needed at least 300 watts of good clean power to perform their best. I will have to disagree with the naysayers, as I find it hard to get any better than what it is right now with the 4520 the only power amp source in my system. Excellent job Denon!

:T

What to do if one can't find impedance curves on the speakers they have and nobody has done a decent bench test of the Amp/AVR one is interested in?

Ignorance is bliss but too much of a good thing can make one sick. So much for my philosophical brilliance.

...


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## lcaillo

phazewolf said:


> How many of you have hooked a o-scope to your amp and watch to see of it really is clipping or not? I know several people that when they we're playing music for me I could hear clipping and they did not know what it was until I pointed it out.


Actually, I have done it many times in to many different loads. My experience is that there are people who listen at moderate levels that will never drive an AVR to clipping even into a low impedance load. There are also people who will drive large power amps to clipping quite regularly. It really depends on the application and the listening habits of the user.



phazewolf said:


> There are lots of speakers that are easy to drive and there plenty that would burn up a avr without a second thought.


Virtually all AVRs have thermal protection and perhaps overcurrent protection that causes them to shut down long before damage. Repeatedly running them near those limits can do damage long term due to heat.



phazewolf said:


> Just because a amp and make X amount of watts don't really mean much. What I like to know is how many ohms can it handle and for how long can it do such. A avr is not going to handle a speaker that drops down to .8ohms and there are several out there that can do such. Even 1 or 2 ohms can bring some good so called high power amps to there knees without much effort.


Actually, power does mean a lot. It is the product of current and voltage. It does not tell the whole story, true enough, but most people can tell when an amp is being stressed. If they can't, then it likely does not matter if it never shuts down. How do you find out "how many ohms" it can handle and for how long?



phazewolf said:


> If you want to know how easy a speaker is look at the phase Angle and how many ohms it drops too over it curve.


Unfortunately most manufacturers do not provide that data. Where do you suggest most consumers get that info and how should they make use of it. 



phazewolf said:


> Companies can call a speaker 8 ohms or 4 ohms all they want but most times if a curve is posted you will see it go all over the place and trust me it is well below said number.


The published impedance is some kind of ballpark and you are correct that impedance varies greatly. It can often dip very low at certain frequencies. That does not mean that the impedance is always that low, just at some frequencies. At other frequencies it might go to several times the stated impedance.

Most of your ideas are on the right track, but the average, or even knowledgeable consumer generally does not have access to these parameters and would not know how to interpret them without comparisons to other models and to actual listening performance. The last of these we do have. If it plays loud enough and sounds good to the user it does not matter what the phase angle or impedance is. The fact is that most people have no problem driving their speakers with AVRs. Some even with rather exotic speakers.


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## 3dbinCanada

annamiata said:


> Same reason of a V8, V10, V12 engines, you don't need all the reserved HP going 70-mph. But when you need it...its there.


Actually listening to low levels using even a power amp is akin to driving a 4 cylinder. Low level listening makes no demand on an AVR. Listening at low levels barely draws a watt out of the amp so an AVR is well capable of delivering that and sound just as good as your boutique brands delivering 300W .


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## phazewolf

Getting good data on a speaker can be hard depending on several things. Most of the speakers I have owned I simply did a search for reviews and found it there. Even alot of older speakers I have seen info for it just depends on who if anyone did the review on them.

Any yes I do understand volt*amps=watts been a wile sense I work on electronic's for a living but I used to know quite a bit went to school for repairing this stuff.


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## littlejohn74

3dbinCanada said:


> I think that extra punch during low levels is more of a placebo affect. During low level, there is no way that one is drawing on the power reserves of either an external amp or an AVR. Its when one places high volume demands and thereby increasing power demands is where the power comes in. I know in my situation that I will not benefit from a power amp. My AVR provides all the punch I need and my speakers are very revealing and I hear all the nuances in my music.


Perhaps, but thus far on a double blind test with my wife being the subject, she as been able to pick when the crown xls is running 100% of the time.

Like I said previously, there are so many variables as to whether or not an external power amp is beneficial.
eg, My brother in law is happy using a Sonus wireless setup for his HT and he thinks it's the bees knees. Clearly in this case an external power amp is meaningless no matter how you look at it.


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## phazewolf

Just because your pulling a watt does not mean it stays anywhere near that level depending on the frequency of what is playing and recording levels. Use a o-scope and measure it yourself levels will be all over. With classical with huge dynamic range you will see it. 

You maybe going along at a watt and then a cannon fires off. Nope no where near a watt at that point not even close.


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## littlejohn74

3dbinCanada said:


> Actually listening to low levels using even a power amp is akin to driving a 4 cylinder. Low level listening makes no demand on an AVR. Listening at low levels barely draws a watt out of the amp so an AVR is well capable of delivering that and sound just as good as your boutique brands delivering 300W .


But similarly, just as you don't always drive at the same speed, music doesn't place a constant demand on the amp.
There will be times you need to overtake, and it would be safer to do so if you had the power of a V8 behind you. The manoeuvre could be completed is less than a second if you had enough power in reserve. Or you could wait, plan your overtaking point because you don't have the grunt to do it on a whim. 
Note that it's not just headroom we're after, but the ability to deliver the power instantly when needed.
ie. no point have an engine that can produce 500kw but only at 18k+rpm when you're commuting on the road.


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## 3dbinCanada

phazewolf said:


> Just because your pulling a watt does not mean it stays anywhere near that level depending on the frequency of what is playing and recording levels. Use a o-scope and measure it yourself levels will be all over. With classical with huge dynamic range you will see it.
> 
> You maybe going along at a watt and then a cannon fires off. Nope no where near a watt at that point not even close.


An oscillsope is good for measuring peak to peak but it will not be able to tell you the phase angle at that instant in time, something that is needed to calculate power delivery. Ok.. on a peak we hit 30 watts and I'm being generous. Still well within the performance envelope of AVRs.


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## 3dbinCanada

littlejohn74 said:


> But similarly, just as you don't always drive at the same speed, music doesn't place a constant demand on the amp.
> There will be times you need to overtake, and it would be safer to do so if you had the power of a V8 behind you. The manoeuvre could be completed is less than a second if you had enough power in reserve. Or you could wait, plan your overtaking point because you don't have the grunt to do it on a whim.
> Note that it's not just headroom we're after, but the ability to deliver the power instantly when needed.
> ie. no point have an engine that can produce 500kw but only at 18k+rpm when you're in the road.


If you look at the slew rate of mid level to high end AVRs, you will notice that they are equipped to handle the transients. 

I'm not trying to dispell the use of power amps. They have a role to play in environments where loud levels are desired with inefficient speakers in large rooms. That's easy to accept. What I'm arguing is the fact that power amps bring to no benefits to the table in a small room with even moderately efficient speakers listening at comfortable loudness levels....85db and lower.


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## littlejohn74

3dbinCanada said:


> What I'm arguing is the fact that power amps bring to no benefits to the table in a small room with even moderately efficient speakers listening at comfortable loudness levels....85db and lower.


I guess, this is the point I disagree with. My equipment is in a relatively small room (~3.5m x ~4.5m), my speakers are Kef XQ30s and I've had B&W CM2s. I rarely use my system at levels greater than 8xdb, unless I'm messing around.
It is clearly easy to hear the difference when using an external amp (Crown XLS2000) vs an AVR (Pioneer AX10i, SC-LX73, Yamaha RX-V3073).
If it were just my ears telling others there is a difference and what nuances to listen for, then I'd be inclined to agree with you.
BUT, when others (particularly my wife) are able to easily pick the difference then I would have to say there is something in it.

The only way I can describe it is, with the AVRs although the sound was clean and there was excellent LR stereo image. When I run preouts to the Crown, the clarity? detail in the sound steps up a notch, the stereo image has "depth" and "height". There is an effortlessness, even at modest listening levels.
"it sounds 3D" as my wife put it.


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## 3dbinCanada

littlejohn74 said:


> I guess, this is the point I disagree with. My equipment is in a relatively small room (~3.5m x ~4.5m), my speakers are Kef XQ30s and I've had B&W CM2s. I rarely use my system at levels greater than 8xdb, unless I'm messing around.
> It is clearly easy to hear the difference when using an external amp (Crown XLS2000) vs an AVR (Pioneer AX10i, SC-LX73, Yamaha RX-V3073).
> If it were just my ears telling others there is a difference and what nuances to listen for, then I'd be inclined to agree with you.
> BUT, when others (particularly my wife) are able to easily pick the difference then I would have to say there is something in it.
> 
> The only way I can describe it is, with the AVRs although the sound was clean and there was excellent LR stereo image. When I run preouts to the Crown, the clarity? detail in the sound steps up a notch, the stereo image has "depth" and "height". There is an effortlessness, even at modest listening levels.
> "it sounds 3D" as my wife put it.


I cannot put too much creedance into the listening tests until I know how they were conducted. Sight bias plays a significant roll in influencing what people hear. It could also be that your AVRS which are quite old are not operating up to spec as well.


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## lcaillo

Could be the wife trying to be supportive and hearing what she thinks is expected. Could be that there are differences. I have thought I heard differences before and really believed they were there. Whether they are or not may or may not matter to the listener, however. It is just someone sharing an experience either way.

I would not say that I would not put credence in such tests as they have great credence for the individual that heard what they heard. I would say that these are not evidence of an actual difference in sound. Another's experience might be either useful or meaningless to others depending on what those others are looking for.

When we report on the speaker listening tests, much of it is our experience and we try to communicate it in a way that is meaningful to others, thus useful. But in the end, what we hear is only our own experience and someone else may, under the very same conditions, have a completely different take on the sound. The sharing of experiences can be very meaningful and interesting, whether that experience can be verified in objective testing or not.


----------



## 3dbinCanada

lcaillo said:


> Could be the wife trying to be supportive and hearing what she thinks is expected. Could be that there are differences. I have thought I heard differences before and really believed they were there. Whether they are or not may or may not matter to the listener, however. It is just someone sharing an experience either way.
> 
> I would not say that I would not put credence in such tests as they have great credence for the individual that heard what they heard. I would say that these are not evidence of an actual difference in sound. Another's experience might be either useful or meaningless to others depending on what those others are looking for.
> 
> When we report on the speaker listening tests, much of it is our experience and we try to communicate it in a way that is meaningful to others, thus useful. But in the end, what we hear is only our own experience and someone else may, under the very same conditions, have a completely different take on the sound. The sharing of experiences can be very meaningful and interesting, whether that experience can be verified in objective testing or not.


Thanks for this. I was not trying to dismiss what he heard to be true although it did come across like that. My apologies Littlejohn. 

Because of my engineering background, the procedure used to obtain the results are as important if not more than the end results. Thats what I was driving at.


----------



## lcaillo

And I share the same tendency to look for explanations and use testing methodology that can produce objective data. But the majority of users of AV equipment will never be interested in that data. What they want is meaningful information. And we have yet to effectively connect the data that we can collect about audio performance to the expericence of many listeners. Even if we could "prove" why people experience what they do, that proof would be meaningless to most people. They are asking different questions. They want enough shared knowledge to feel comfortable with their purchase and experience the music or movies in a way that is satisfying. We geeks and engineers want to understand why and how.

It is a challenge to balance the science and the subjective experience. I get great satisfaction from listening to music. If I analyze it too much I get to the point where it is a science experiment rather than a meaningful experience of the music. Either is fine, but just experiencing the music, suspending disbelief and letting myself feel like there are performers with real instruments there, is also very important. I find myself switching from forward to reverse in thinking a lot because we want to give correct and not misleading information to people, but many readers also want the sharing of experience, even it there is not objective data to back it up.


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## littlejohn74

3dbinCanada said:


> I cannot put too much creedance into the listening tests until I know how they were conducted. Sight bias plays a significant roll in influencing what people hear. It could also be that your AVRS which are quite old are not operating up to spec as well.


The spread of AVRs span over a decade, I wouldn't have thought the RX-V3075 would be considered passed it's used by date by anyone's standards. The AX10i perhaps, but the 3075??:scratch:

Had the Crowns rrp for $1000+, then I can understand there be some sort of psychoacoustic bias towards wanting them to sound better, but truth be told I wasn't expecting anything from them, especially seeing that they're the entry level Crowns.

Whilst I'm a stickler for quantitative measurements as much as the next guy, I also keep in mind that as humans, we only know what we know.
Relatively speaking, it wasn't all that long ago that some of the greatest minds on earth were certain the world was flat and the sun orbited the earth


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## littlejohn74

3dbinCanada said:


> Thanks for this. I was not trying to dismiss what he heard to be true although it did come across like that. My apologies Littlejohn.
> 
> Because of my engineering background, the procedure used to obtain the results are as important if not more than the end results. Thats what I was driving at.


No apologies necessary as no offence was taken.... but thanks nontheless 
Discussions and opinions are what forums are for. We just have differing opinions and I don't think either of us will be changing our minds over a few posts on an internet forum 

I have found over the years, this Audio hobby we share is a lot like drinking wines. 
Many years ago, I was at a wine tasting party where the selection of wines on offer were all behind brown paper bags. Everyone was asked to taste and rate each bottle. They ranged from $5 - $1200.
At the end of the tasting session everyone was surprised to find that the most popular bottles were the $15-$20. We concluded that people only know what they know and gravitate towards familiarity. 

You sir, may be a musician and sound engineer for the better part of 40 years and have been around music and studios all your life. Hence your focus may be somewhat different to someone who has only tinkered with HiFi gear for 30 years as a hobby.

Personally I find quantitative measurements and spec sheets a nice place to start and a great place to be when I'm messing around with various settings, but subjective listening tests are what determine where my dollars go.


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## 3dbinCanada

littlejohn74 said:


> No apologies necessary as no offence was taken.... but thanks nontheless
> Discussions and opinions are what forums are for. We just have differing opinions and I don't think either of us will be changing our minds over a few posts on an internet forum


*LOL* You can say that again.



littlejohn74 said:


> I have found over the years, this Audio hobby we share is a lot like drinking wines.
> Many years ago, I was at a wine tasting party where the selection of wines on offer were all behind brown paper bags. Everyone was asked to taste and rate each bottle. They ranged from $5 - $1200.
> At the end of the tasting session everyone was surprised to find that the most popular bottles were the $15-$20. We concluded that people only know what they know and gravitate towards familiarity.
> 
> You sir, may be a musician and sound engineer for the better part of 40 years and have been around music and studios all your life. Hence your focus may be somewhat different to someone who has only tinkered with HiFi gear for 30 years as a hobby.
> 
> Personally I find quantitative measurements and spec sheets a nice place to start and a great place to be when I'm messing around with various settings, but subjective listening tests are what determine where my dollars go.


Cheers


----------



## padgman1

littlejohn74 said:


> No apologies necessary as no offence was taken.... but thanks nontheless
> Discussions and opinions are what forums are for. We just have differing opinions and I don't think either of us will be changing our minds over a few posts on an internet forum
> 
> I have found over the years, this Audio hobby we share is a lot like drinking wines.
> Many years ago, I was at a wine tasting party where the selection of wines on offer were all behind brown paper bags. Everyone was asked to taste and rate each bottle. They ranged from $5 - $1200.
> At the end of the tasting session everyone was surprised to find that the most popular bottles were the $15-$20. We concluded that people only know what they know and gravitate towards familiarity.
> 
> You sir, may be a musician and sound engineer for the better part of 40 years and have been around music and studios all your life. Hence your focus may be somewhat different to someone who has only tinkered with HiFi gear for 30 years as a hobby.
> 
> Personally I find quantitative measurements and spec sheets a nice place to start and a great place to be when I'm messing around with various settings, but subjective listening tests are what determine where my dollars go.


Littlejohn, I have "dabbled" in wines for the past 25+ years and have had some awe-inspiring wines costing hundreds of dollars.......but I can almost always find wines very similar in quality for $20-30 or less.

Moral of the story: Whatever gets the job done gets the job done, regardless of price. That's how I think when I think about using external amps........if my AVR gets the job done, why should I need to spend more?
The problem is, if one has not experienced the "other side", can one really make an informed decision? Sounds like you HAVE made that comparison and it made sense to go to an external amp. Others have seen it differently. Always, always, subjective opinion rules in these types of discussions, and I actaually am glad you have a strong opinion about this based on YOUR experiences.

Anyone have a Carver Sunfire amp lying about ( that works) for me to borrow for a few weeks ( along with an AVR with pre-outs....my Denon 2113 doesn't have them) so I can have my own subjective experience??


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## BeeMan458

3dbinCanada said:


> If you look at the slew rate of mid level to high end AVRs, you will notice that they are equipped to handle the transients.
> 
> I'm not trying to dispell the use of power amps. They have a role to play in environments where loud levels are desired with inefficient speakers in large rooms. That's easy to accept. What I'm arguing is the fact that power amps bring to no benefits to the table in a small room with even moderately efficient speakers listening at comfortable loudness levels....85db and lower.


Not picking on anybody, just saying, overall, some might be getting off in the weeds where laypeople and consumers don't go. I'm a retired general contractor/pest control operator, not an electrical/sound engineer. I know what a resistor looks like and how to load a new program into a computer. To me, knowing where the best, on the cheap pizza can be found or how to pick out a quality rib eye for grilling purposes in a bin of twenty offerings, to me, now that's a layperson's knowledge base. Knowledge about where to find a $12USD first cru Bordeaux to go with the rib eye, for me, that's getting a bit advanced. 

I agree with AVRs, transients, efficient speakers, loudness levels in the 85dB to 100dB range. I like subwoofers with huge output and banging good bass movies. Where my thinking diverges is Home Theater/Surround Sound vs Home Music/Stereo Imaging in a single seated location Vs a room where four or more people in various locations around the room might sit with a bowl of well buttered popcorn and a bottle of decent brew of choice and give them all a Home Theater treat to be remembered.

I want guests, my wife and I to have an hour and a half or two hours of escapism where the day-to-day nonsense is totally forgotten. I want sound that envelops the listener and sucks the viewer in and holds them there. I want killer, artifact free, saturated color that envelopes the optic nerves. I want clear, clean, dialogue that can be easily understood during loud, complex action scenes. I want, visceral impact bass, huge dynamic range and on screen special effects that wow and entertain without blowing one's ears out. As a host, what I can't be responsible for are directors who use man suits to imitate monsters, that look like man suits, imitating monsters. Even today, the things viewers have to ignore, in order to be able to enjoy what's been placed before our eyes.

(oh come on. you had a $190m USD budget and this is the best you could do?)

On all levels, in short, I want a system that does what it's been hired to do; flawlessly entertain. As to producers and movie content, everybody is on their own. After a rescreening of "Pacific Rim," to make up with my wife for putting her to sleep, our next movie will be........"All Is Lost." Movie on order, "Captain Phillips." For those who care, "Lone Survivor" is still in yet to be released status.

The point of my above ramblings, in my opinion, most here that are laypeople, are wanting a killer, at home big screen experience they don't have to think about or defend to their guest. How most get there, in my opinion, will depend on the number of Benjamins one has to drop on this hobby.

(now, about that 80" flat screen)

..


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## padgman1

Beeman, I hear ya............sounds like I need to come over to your place to watch some flicks and have some beverages..........

I totally agree with the "at home big screen experience" and how one gets there depends on the cash flow.
I guess my personal system won't quite get there yet, but I have an acceptable time now with movies - noise level is controlled by the wife when it gets subjectively loud. 

By the way...........if one can find a 1st cru Bordeaux for $12/ bottle, let me know...............now, I CAN find you a $12 Malbec that will go well with that ribeye.............


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## 3dbinCanada

padgman1 said:


> but I have an acceptable time now with movies - noise level is controlled by the wife when it gets subjectively loud.


Don't ya just hate it!!! Turn down the bass!! Its too loud. My heart is skipping beats.. :doh:

I love it when my heart skips beat and my basement sliders are rattling.. Like you and Beeman say, I get sucked into the moment when that happens and I remain there until the credits begin to roll by. :bigsmile:


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## BeeMan458

padgman1 said:


> By the way...........if one can find a 1st cru Bordeaux for $12/ bottle, let me know...............now, I CAN find you a $12 Malbec that will go well with that ribeye.............


Negra Modelo, Fat Tire Amber Ale, Sierra Nevada Pale Ale or Sam Adams Boston Lager are today's offerings.

A bit out of your neighborhood but Gene's Fine Foods of Saratoga has the best wine selection from the cheap stuff to the really good stuff. That's where the 1st cru Bordeaux came from. We're no longer in the neighborhood so we're now Costco dependent and more than likely, you know how that story goes. 

With the wife present, guests and I are held to -20dBfs to -17.5dBfs but with the wife gone, we can go up to +/-0dBfs.

:devil:


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## lcaillo

The beer and wine probably make the AVRE sound fine...beer ears, you know. But in actuality probably better to have the extra headroom in the amp after the first couple. :dizzy::hsd:


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## nova

Hey I can relate to beer ears, been brewing for over 20 years.


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## phazewolf

We can use a large Class A amp to cook burgers to go with the beer.


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## 3dbinCanada

phazewolf said:


> We can use a large Class A amp to cook burgers to go with the beer.


I'll take my burger with a slab o cheese


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## BeeMan458

I had to give up cheeseburgers. At full on reference, the top of our AVR never gets more than hand warm.

It's very disturbing because I feel like I'm being robbed of a legitimate phobia; worries of the AVR over heating.

...:hissyfit:


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## Bear123

Speaking of heat, I recently conducted an experiment regarding the effects of heat on audio equipment. I stacked my AVR, the cable box, and my Sony blu ray player into a built in bookshelf about as tight as they would go. Turns out, blu ray players don't like to be cooked. Nothing like upgrading out of necessity. I think its almost time to accidentally drop our 7 year old 50" 

Oh, and sorry, as per the topic of the thread, no external amps here. Still suffering along with the cheapest AVR currently on the market. Have to say though, it sounds pretty good for the amount of money invested. Before I move up to the world of external amplification however, an AVR upgrade will be in order. I would like to get one with internet connectivity, XT32, and sub EQ, especially since I am having zero luck with the miniDSP  It is surprising how much sound you can get for under $2k nowadays.


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## 3dbinCanada

BeeMan458 said:


> I had to give up cheeseburgers. At full on reference, the top of our AVR never gets more than hand warm.
> 
> It's very disturbing because I feel like I'm being robbed of a legitimate phobia; worries of the AVR over heating.
> 
> ...:hissyfit:


Be happy my friend that you are robbed of this phobia that causes ulcers, premature graying of the hair, and a nervous twitch.  My Yammy when going full out also remains nice and cool. I have other issues that give the above symptons. :rolleyesno:


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## BeeMan458

3dbinCanada said:


> I have other issues that give the above symptons. :rolleyesno:


That was my last concern. Now I got nothing to worry about. I'm depressed. 

(one has to have these phobias to encourage upgrading to newer, bigger, better, stronger, faster........)

And now, nothing to turn my head.

...:crying:

Two movies were received today from Amazon: "Enemy At The Gates" and "Robin Hood" with Russell Crowe.

The next movie to be watched, "The Hurt Locker."


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## chashint

BeeMan458 said:


> That was my last concern. Now I got nothing to worry about. I'm depressed."


LOL ... good one.


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## BeeMan458

chashint said:


> LOL ... good one.


...:bigsmile:

We watched "The Hurt Locker" last night and tonight, looking forward to "Flyboys."

The challenge of tonight's movie, not watching the movie with my face glued to the face of the sound meter.

...:nerd:

The sound quality? It's amazing...........and my lament, I have only words to convey this feeling.


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## 3dbinCanada

BeeMan458 said:


> ...:bigsmile:
> 
> We watched "The Hurt Locker" last night and tonight, looking forward to "Flyboys."
> 
> The challenge of tonight's movie, not watching the movie with my face glued to the face of the sound meter.
> 
> ...:nerd:
> 
> The sound quality? It's amazing...........and my lament, I have only words to convey this feeling.


Flyboys eh? Your SPL needle will be dancin fer sure!! Its an awesome movie with an awesome soundtrack.


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## BeeMan458

3dbinCanada said:


> Its an awesome movie with an awesome soundtrack.


Thanks! I've seen the movie before but never on a well dialed in system. Old or new, I'm like a kid trying everything,

For the old, today, I ordered up: 




A cartoon: "How To Train Your Dragon."

And for new humor:


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## chashint

Finding Nemo is a good colorful movie and all around enjoyable film.
The scene in the dentist office where the girl taps the side of the fish tank produces waves of spectacular bass that will make you proud of you sub woofer.


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## novisnick

I do believe you are mistaken on your all channels driven, it's only front L/R.
I'm pretty sure this is correct.
Nick


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## asere

chashint said:


> Finding Nemo is a good colorful movie and all around enjoyable film.
> The scene in the dentist office where the girl taps the side of the fish tank produces waves of spectacular bass that will make you proud of you sub woofer.


Yep, love that scene!


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## novisnick

We have gone off thread I think. Yes I use external amps and enjoy them very much. My speakers have come alive with them.
I say, if your in a happy place, don't let anyone tell you your not.
I have been an AVR man for years and this year,,,,,I've gone over to the dark side,,,,,,,,and I like it!

Peace,

Nick:sn:


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## BeeMan458

novisnick said:


> I do believe you are mistaken on your all channels driven, it's only front L/R.
> I'm pretty sure this is correct.Nick


To whom and which post are you directing your above comment to?

...


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## nova

We are starting to veer off topic from external amps to movies. Nothing wrong with bringing movies into the conversation but lets keep it relevant to the use of external amps.


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## BeeMan458

My apologies. Mea culpa. The point is to highlight the joy the Denon AVR4520CI has brought to our movie watching experience and now, I'm like a kid with overflowing enthusiasm for what this AVR has done for our quality of sound. So as to honor your request and not drift into movies, last night's unnamed movie was pure sonic heaven. For at least an hour after the movie finished, I was up in the clouds over the sound quality. It was stunning and the shame of it all, other than words, there's no way to convey the quality of sound we experienced last night.

I made the final AVR purchase decision based on Sonnie's review of the 4520CI. This quote struck me and needs to be repeated:



> Summing It Up
> 
> In conclusion, I am thoroughly impressed with this unit. It has about all the features you could ask for in a receiver/processor and ample power to accommodate most any speaker system. *I initially intended on reviewing it and then selling it, but instead I have already sold my Onkyo 5508, XPA-3 amp and XPA-1 monoblocks.* I keep thinking to myself that the 4520 seems to be a little on the pricey side, but if you consider what any other processor with the same features would cost you and then add the expense of amplification, the 4520 price actually sounds like a bargain. I think the most surprising part of my experience with the 4520 has been its ability to drive my MartinLogan speakers effortlessly. I had almost given up on ever trying receiver power because I have always read and heard that the Prodigy’s pretty much needed at least 300 watts of good clean power to perform their best. I will have to disagree with the naysayers, as I find it hard to get any better than what it is right now with the 4520 the only power amp source in my system. Excellent job Denon!


The selling point that got me started on the sojourn was the "NEED" for XT32/SubEQ HT but room correction software is not amplifier centric. In the meantime, after upgrading the CC to a Klipsch RC-64 II, I was not happy with the output capabilities of our Marantz SR5007 which was not able to keep up with the soundtrack as one could hear the speakers falling way behind the three subwoofers (two were stacked) which weren't that good to begin with. Along with upgrading to the 4520, we upgraded to a universal blu-ray player (Denon DBT-3313UDCI) and the subwoofers were upgraded to a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs. And yes, one can rightfully say, well that's a boatload of cash and in perspective, my opinion, it's cheap entertainment compared to the price of a Yamaha 225HP outboard motor, not including boat and trailer. Much like the need to buy a continual supply of fresh blu-ray content, all have insurance and maintenance issues,

The point, what's left out of conversations (questions) of this type, is how integral each of the components are regarding overall sound quality and how important dialing a system in, to match the acoustics of a room. It's not just about external or internal amplifiers because in my opinion, sound quality is a synergistic aggregate of the whole system and the ability of a system to produce clean sound at the sound levels one expects to be regularly listening.

With the final integration of recent upgrades, our Home Theater sojourn has finally come to an end. Now, a new life has emerged; the buying, watching and listening to movies. In the end, for our personal needs, that was the ultimate purpose of the exercise, obtaining visual and sonic quality that long after the movie has ended, leaves one in the emotional clouds, wanting more.

Hopefully the above will explain (not excuse) my off topic drift.


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## Savjac

Not sure if anyone is still taking notes but I use and AVR, Denon with a Emo XPA-5. I used to have an XPA-3 and an XPA -5 but now just use the Denon for the extra channels


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## 3dbinCanada

BeeMan458 said:


> For at least an hour after the movie finished, I was up in the clouds over the sound quality. It was stunning and the shame of it all, other than words, there's no way to convey the quality of sound we experienced last night.


You are a punny guy (knowing what you watched last night)


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## BeeMan458

3dbinCanada said:


> You are a punny guy (knowing what you watched last night)


...:bigsmile:


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## Mjet

Just upgraded to a MCA 50 was always running Av's before went through Yamaha Onkyo now on a Denon and i must say just the clarity at peak volumes and the deadness of it all you can hear a pin drop in the room like a calm before the storm then it kicks in effortlessly would never go back to just an av receiver powering everything thats just my 2 bits thanks for listening guys this is my first post


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## rencan

XPA-5 with a Pioneer SC57.


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## phillihp23

Emotiva XPA-5 V2 with a Denon Receiver.


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## xtinkshun

a few years ago I owned a pair of B&W 802D. When powered with my Onkyo 807? (cant recall) they played music which was ok. However, when I amped out and added a pair of MC501 they made a night and day difference. The soundstage was immediate, the voices were clear and clean, every instrument was precise. When I re-connected the onkyo it was very sad.. lol Perhaps due to the 802D efficiency and need for lots of power. 
You could easily "hear" and notice a difference. 
Today, I have a Denon 4311CI but I have been thinking of amping out. I have a Denon 4311CI powering my 100bd speakers now and they sound just fine, very loud. When I added my Crown XLS1500 they sounded the same, just a few DB louder according to my Radio Shack SPL meter but did noting to "change" the sound. So I'll stick with my Denon, no point it spending $399.00 on something that makes zero difference. I can buy another set of speakers.. lol


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## essneff

XPA-5 with Onkyo 929!


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## Skrill

I picked up a Sherbourn PA 7-350 for $1K when they were getting closed out by Emotiva. This is a beast of an amp (7 x 350W and weighing over 100 lbs). It runs cool and sounds great.

I then used it with a Denon AVR-2807, then an Onkyo SR-805 and now a Denon X4000 as a pre-amp. All did a better job than the last handling processing duties. Love the current setup which included Audyssey XT32.


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## lizrussspike

I have an XPA-5 with a Marantz SR7008 and love the Emotiva! Runs cool and no issues for three years with the Amp.


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## sevenz

My speakers are B&W 7 series, and my own experience was that they sounded very thin and weak when I was using just an AVR a a few years ago. At that time, i was using Yammy RXV-465 and then upgraded to Yammy RXV1900. The B&Ws sounded slightly better on the 1900 than the 465 due to the higher amplification and better build of the 1900 but still i found the sound mediocre. 

To be frank, i was so disappointed that I almost sold away my B&W 7-series, until I decided to add the rotel RMB1095, a 200Wx5 channel power amp to do the amplification. Suddenly, my B&Ws came ALIVE..... ! And there was no turning back. The sound was much fuller, rich in especially vocals, and i could hear more details on my B&Ws than never before. It was a night and day difference. 

But I've tried using the power amp on more efficient smaller speakers like the Cambridge S30 which is easy to drive, and the observation was that there wasn't much of a difference with the power amp. 

Today, I'm using x4000 with Rotel RMB1095. Previously I paired the Rotel with a Marantz AV8003 too and it sounded great. 

To be frank, I wanted to compare the Denon 4520 vs Denon 4520 with a 200WPC power amp, becos i have heard from friends that with the 4520, i may not need a power amp. But i have to hear this in my own room to believe this. Anyone has experience in this, appreciate it to share =)


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## lizrussspike

sevenz said:


> My speakers are B&W 7 series, and my own experience was that they sounded very thin and weak when I was using just an AVR a a few years ago. At that time, i was using Yammy RXV-465 and then upgraded to Yammy RXV1900. The B&Ws sounded slightly better on the 1900 than the 465 due to the higher amplification and better build of the 1900 but still i found the sound mediocre.
> 
> To be frank, i was so disappointed that I almost sold away my B&W 7-series, until I decided to add the rotel RMB1095, a 200Wx5 channel power amp to do the amplification. Suddenly, my B&Ws came ALIVE..... ! And there was no turning back. The sound was much fuller, rich in especially vocals, and i could hear more details on my B&Ws than never before. It was a night and day difference.
> 
> But I've tried using the power amp on more efficient smaller speakers like the Cambridge S30 which is easy to drive, and the observation was that there wasn't much of a difference with the power amp.
> 
> Today, I'm using x4000 with Rotel RMB1095. Previously I paired the Rotel with a Marantz AV8003 too and it sounded great.
> 
> To be frank, I wanted to compare the Denon 4520 vs Denon 4520 with a 200WPC power amp, becos i have heard from friends that with the 4520, i may not need a power amp. But i have to hear this in my own room to believe this. Anyone has experience in this, appreciate it to share =)


I helped a work buddy with his Denon 4520 setting up his polk speakers. The 4520 did a great job. He then got some A9;s from Polk that required a little more power than the 4520 could provide. He had them running with the 4520, but after I talked him into an AMP(Emotiva XPA-2), he is very impressed with the difference. That being said that the 4520 does a great job with some speakers, but since he went with a 11.2 set up, that the AMP served him well for the 500W A9s from Polk.


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## Lumen

padgman1 said:


> Just curious.......wondering how many of the HTS faithful are using external amps to power their systems through an AVR? If so, are you using them to provide dynamic capability that the AVR cannot ( for you) or for some other reason ( electrostatic speakers, low impedance speakers, etc.)?
> 
> I am satisfied with the features and power of my Denon 2113ci with my Arx A5's and PSA XV15 in my 2000ft3 ( I listen at relatively low levels not approaching THX levels), but have wondered for months now if a more powerful amp would make a difference( knowing I would need to change to a AVR that has preouts as my Denon sadly does not). Most of what I have read on this forum and others would suggest otherwise, but I still have this "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" feeling........


It sounds like you're chomping-at-the-bit to make a comparison. You can do that risk-free for 30 days at no cost (except maybe shipping), at online sites like Audio Advisor. You can call them for friendly advice and have a shiny new toy delivered to your door to try in your own system. :jiggy: 

One person's low is another's high :bigsmile:. What matters most is whether or not the AVR or amp is being taxed by the speakers it's driving and the material it's playing. The obvious benefit of a higher-powered amp/AVR for a given set of speakers, is that it will play louder. But it also provides more headroom for reproducing transient material. 

Even for lower listening levels, a lower-powered amp may be driven into clipping when suddenly asked to reproduce something like the roar of a crowd, a diving jet, or an orchestral crescendo. At the same listening level, a capably-powered amp will reproduce those same passages without strain or distortion. 

Some people like to "supersize" their amps to make sure they'll always be idling along, no matter what material is thrown at them. In a perfect world, the higher the power, the greater the headroom with any speaker under any condition. But real world amps aren't perfect, and aren't always competently designed (or marketed). Beware of amps marketed with nonstandard power specs. Look for power specs that increase substantially into dropping loads.


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## padgman1

BlueRockinLou said:


> It sounds like you're chomping-at-the-bit to make a comparison. You can do that risk-free for 30 days at no cost (except maybe shipping), at online sites like Audio Advisor. You can call them for friendly advice and have a shiny new toy delivered to your door to try in your own system. :jiggy:
> 
> One person's low is another's high :bigsmile:. What matters most is whether or not the AVR or amp is being taxed by the speakers it's driving and the material it's playing. The obvious benefit of a higher-powered amp/AVR for a given set of speakers, is that it will play louder. But it also provides more headroom for reproducing transient material.
> 
> Even for lower listening levels, a lower-powered amp may be driven into clipping when suddenly asked to reproduce something like the roar of a crowd, a diving jet, or an orchestral crescendo. At the same listening level, a capably-powered amp will reproduce those same passages without strain or distortion.
> 
> Some people like to "supersize" their amps to make sure they'll always be idling along, no matter what material is thrown at them. In a perfect world, the higher the power, the greater the headroom with any speaker under any condition. But real world amps aren't perfect, and aren't always competently designed (or marketed). Beware of amps marketed with nonstandard power specs. Look for power specs that increase substantially into dropping loads.


Thanks for the kind response. Unfortunately, my Denon AVR does not have preouts, so I would have to purchase another AVR with them ( like the X4000 with added Audyssey XT32 as a bonus).

Right now, I am satisfied with what I have.........more items in the house need attention ( new floors and carpet), so I am not in the market for any upgrades yet.

Have loved to read everyone's responses and see that many love their add-on power amps but many also do just fine with their primary amp/AVR....................


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## sevenz

lizrussspike said:


> I helped a work buddy with his Denon 4520 setting up his polk speakers. The 4520 did a great job. He then got some A9;s from Polk that required a little more power than the 4520 could provide. He had them running with the 4520, but after I talked him into an AMP(Emotiva XPA-2), he is very impressed with the difference. That being said that the 4520 does a great job with some speakers, but since he went with a 11.2 set up, that the AMP served him well for the 500W A9s from Polk.



Thanks for the feed. Can u me to better understand what was the main improvement that he heard? =)


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## wilbur_the_goose

phillihp23 said:


> Emotiva XPA-5 V2 with a Denon Receiver.


Me too


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## Talley

Using a Krell showcase 7 channel amp and a Denon X4000 as a processor/preamp only. Sounds great.


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## ureka

XPA-2 Gen 2 with a Denon X4000 for the added dynamics.


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## mr_tv

Using Harmon Kardon Signature 2.1 and a Kenwood KM-X1. Preamp work done with a Onky TX NR 818. Speakers are not demanding but I just like using the external amps. I think they sound nicer but I may be fooling myself. I am looking at the Marantz 7702 maybe later this year.


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## Violator

I'm currently running an Anthem MRX 510 with 5 Kef LS50s. They're not the easiest speakers in the world to drive, and by many accounts are very keen on extra juice whenever possible.

Therefore I'm currently looking at an ATI 1805 and using the MRX as a pre.


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## Brendos

I just found a Crest Audio VS900, To power my Axiom M80 4ohm speakers.
As I was running them through My Tascam PA200. Now running the CREST through it and I noticed a big difference, the sound seems a lot fuller with the external.


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## H_Roark

I am running a Marantz SR7007 as a kinda pre-processor, it runs my rears and single rear surround, I have a Classe CAV75 bridged into 3 ch to run the mains and my huge center channel. It can be really enveloping.


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## rencan

Running an XPA-5 with Denon X7200 in a 7.2.4 Atmos set up and using an external 2 channel amp (crown) for zone 2.

Polk audio LSi-15 and FX for surrounds and Polk Audio (4) ceiling speakers for Atmos.


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## tcarcio

I am using My Onkyo 809 as my pre amp for my QSC GX-5 500w per channel pro amp to power my mains and the Onkyo powers the center and surrounds. Love it......:bigsmile:


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## JBrax

I'm also using an Onkyo tx-nr809 as a pre-amp for my Emotiva XPA-3. XPA-3 powers my front three and the Onkyo powers my surrounds. More power than I'll ever need for my Klipsch Reference setup.


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## mb350

I bought a mid level Yamaha Aventage (RX-A830) receiver two years ago and one of the requirements was it had to have pre-outs to my custom built Leach amplifiers which to my ears, and over the years, were unsurpassed by any commercial amplifier.

Then the big surprise. I could not distinguish the quality of sound when driven by the Yamaha amp and the custom built ones. I wanted to believe that the external amps were better, but my ears told me there was no difference. I believe this just showed that modern equipment, when it comes to amplification, has reached levels of perfection such that any improvements are not detectable by the listener.

For sub-woofers, due to power considerations, the custom amps drive them. For all else the built in amplification of this mid priced unit is excellent. I'm sure the same would go whether it was a Denon, or Marantz, or Onkyo. One might purchase differently based on reliability, features, quality of DACs, but amplification I think, unlike back in the 90s where there were differences, has reached its nadir.


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## moparz10

in the living room i'm running a yamaha rxv-3900 which i always thought it ran a bit to hot,even with aftermarket fans on it,so i decided to use a emotiva upa-200 to drive the front L/R noticed the heat go to warm but no difference in sound quality,at least not to me.


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## ambientcafe

Having preouts on my AVRs has always been a requirement for my main setup (currently on my 3rd Yamaha). However, my motivations are somewhat different from others on this thread. My preference for running external amps for each channel is actually secondary to my main priority of adding outboard EQ's b/w the AVR and each external amp for maximum tailoring of sound. I also use a commercial Aphex 'Aural Exciter' to improve dialog intelligibility for the center channel, as well as to add presence and density to the LFE :T


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