# Protector mode??



## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

Hello. I have a sony strdn840. I had two jbl e90's. I still have Polk center. Two audiofile towers for surrounds. Two onkyo bookshelves for front highs. Two subs. I bought some jbl s312II towers and have replaced the e90's.

Now every time I put a movie or song on and I turn the volume up high like at 39 to 45 it goes into protector mode. why?

I checked the banana plugs on the towers which are the only ones that were replaced. They look good. Nothing else was moved. Ideas? Thx.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

The sony strdn840 is not a huge power deliverer, spec says 150 W max into 6 ohms with only one channel driven. The jbl s312II is 8 ohms, but not very efficient - 92 dB - and looks like it could gobble LOTS of power, the spec says 250 W max. You are probably just asking the Sony to do too much when you crank it up, and it is going into protection mode. That's my guess.

Edit: But the E90 was even less efficient, only 91 dB.

Maybe you are getting a little enthusiastic with the new towers and pushing them harder?

Edit: Did the S312 come from a reputable source? Do you know they were treated well and were in good working condition?


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

thx. they actually work on and off. meaning the protector mode. the other day i was jamming out with them and saturday when i was watching ultron it kept going off when i had it at volume 43 and something booming or loud happened....then it would go off. if the movie or song is not a boom then it wont cut off.


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## typ44q (Apr 7, 2008)

Are you running the towers or any of the speakers full range? Is the receiver very hot when it is going into protect mode? Is it in an area where it can get good airflow?


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

Not sure about full range. Not hot. Yes it has good air flow


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

AudiocRaver said:


> Do you know they were treated well and were in good working condition?


Hi Rudy! Can you please describe in detail? Have you checked the individual drivers of the speaker? Each driver will have either foam or rubber material surrounding each cone. These can become brittle or separated. Touch them LIGHTLY with your finger. If they disintegrate or permanently deform, replace them with easy-to-install kits from Parts Express.




Legendary70 said:


> I checked the banana plugs on the towers which are the only ones that were replaced. They look good. Nothing else was moved. Ideas? Thx.


Not moving something doesn't mean it won't come loose by itself through vibration, improper fit, etc. But your problem doesn't sound like a loose connection. 




Legendary70 said:


> Now every time I put a movie or song on and I turn the volume up high like at 39 to 45 it goes into protector mode. why?


Sorry Rudy, but more detail would help a lot. What exactly do you mean by "protector" mode. Does the whole speaker go silent, or just a portion (bass/ mid / treble)? Do you hear any noise like clicking coming from the receiver before or after the silence? Distortion?



Legendary70 said:


> Not sure about full range. Not hot. Yes it has good air flow


"Full-range" refers to the audio frequency range assigned to the loudspeaker (usually through an AVR's internal crossover network). "Full-range" is also known as "Large" and generally covers 20Hz-20kHz. Anything else is "Small" and usually covers 80Hz-20kHz. These settings are available in your receiver's Setup Menu. Member typ44q knows that running the mains LARGE requires a lot more power than SMALL. More power = less headroom. Think of headroom as the water behind a dam and power as the water flowing out. The more power needs to be delivered to the speakers, the less left "behind the dam" for sudden increases in demand (peaks). Releasing the mains from bass duties sends the signal to the sub(s) which will reproduce bass with higher sound quality. It also frees-up power in the receiver, because the sub's amp handles bass. Your mains are only rated to 35Hz. That may be low by music standards, but it's anemic for movies. _It may not help solve your problem, but I would at least set all speakers to SMALL to get better sound quality._


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

Lumen said:


> Hi Rudy! Can you please describe in detail? Have you checked the individual drivers of the speaker? Each driver will have either foam or rubber material surrounding each cone. These can become brittle or separated. Touch them LIGHTLY with your finger. If they disintegrate or permanently deform, replace them with easy-to-install kits from Parts Express.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lumen thanks for the nice reply. I have all speakers set to small. My crossover is set to (I am pretty sure) 100. I will be home at a reasonable time this evening to check all speaker connections. 

Protector mode: Example we were trying to watch age of ultron at a volume of 43. It would go into protector mode every time a really loud boom or sound went off in the movie. The AVR did not make any special sound it would just say protector mode and turn off. When I would turn in back ON the volume would be at 0. It seems that if I leave the volume anywhere below 30 it will not go into protector mode.

Yes. I bought the speakers at a pawn shop for 135. I tested the speakers at the shop on an Onkyo AVR and blasted them on some really good BASS songs. They sounded and worked just fine. I have checked the speakers and cones and the surrounding foam. everything looks in great condition. nothing is torn, old or brittle. 

what else besides checking connections this evening can I do? thx.


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

not sure if this is correct. I think it drives two channels?

Assignable 7-Channel Amplifier: The Sony STR-DN840 AV receiver is equipped with a 7-channel amplifier rated at 95 watts (into 6-ohms, at 20-20khz, with 0.09% THD, driving 2 channels). The AV receiver's Surround Back/Front Height amplifier channels can be configured to accommodate your type of home theater setup.

at crutchfield


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Thanks for doing all the homework! We can rule out connections and bad speakers. Like Wayne did above, I'm afraid I can only suggest your receiver is underpowered for your speakers/room and listening habits. It may sound like a lot, but 95W/ch with only 2 channels driven means the amp will put out less when 5 or 7 are going full-tilt. Not even close to your speaker's max handling of 250W. I think you could benefit from an external amp. Would you be willing to try that, and how much would you want to spend?


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Does it happen when you listen to 2 channel or in stereo only? If not then I agree that you are asking too much of your receiver when using it for movies.


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

I would consider an amp. My wife would not allow me to spend a lot of money on it.....BUT what do you recommend at a reasonable price?


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

this was given to me on a chat with Sony support. Not sure if my jbl's are in compliance?

I would like to inform you that, if there is any external speaker connected and it's impedance is below 75 ohms then due to low impedance the receiver may enter to the "protect" mode.

Manual:
Reduce the volume level. If the impedance of any of the speakers is below the rated impedance range indicated on the rear of the home audio device next to the speaker connections, the home audio device may enter the PROTECT mode. Raising the volume with a low impedance speaker will trigger the protection circuit.


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

I am going to go home today and pull the AVR out and disconnect all plugs and reconnect. If that does not work.....

The Sony manual says to do this:
Because each of these steps represents a possible solution to this issue, check the A/V receiver status after completing each step.

If there has been an electrical surge or power outage, then the internal surge protection inside the home audio device may have been triggered to protect the device from the surge. This is normal. To reset the internal surge protection circuit unplug the AC power cord from the wall for at least 30 minutes.
Ensure the top of the home audio device has proper ventilation to keep it from overheating. Running the home audio device in a poorly ventilated cabinet can trigger the protection circuit.
Reduce the volume level. If the impedance of any of the speakers is below the rated impedance range indicated on the rear of the home audio device next to the speaker connections, the home audio device may enter the PROTECT mode. Raising the volume with a low impedance speaker will trigger the protection circuit.
NOTES:

Replace low impedance (outside of specifications) speakers with the correct impedance to prevent this from occurring.
If you continue to use the low impedance (outside of specifications) speakers and you ran the Auto Calibration, check your SPEAKER SETUP and individual speaker LEVEL to reduce any speaker LEVEL with a positive gain to 0.0dB or less.
To isolate the problem, do the following:
Turn off the home audio device, and remove all speaker wires from the back. Then turn the device back on and check if the issue is resolved. If it is still having the same issue, turn off the device again leave it off for at least 30 minutes before turning it on again.
Inspect the speaker cords. If a cord is frayed or in contact with another terminal, an error will occur. Fix the connection to prevent a short circuit.
Make sure the speaker impedance is within the recommended range. If the impedance is not correct, the speakers will not work properly and may be damaged. If the speakers are within the recommended impedance range, check the connections. If the speakers being used are within the suitable impedance range and they are still not working, there may be a malfunction or some other flaw within the speakers. Test by using a different set of speakers if available.

If ALL fails: 
Would my Yamaha Aventage RX-A1040 do the job? Thx.


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

tcarcio said:


> Does it happen when you listen to 2 channel or in stereo only? If not then I agree that you are asking too much of your receiver when using it for movies.


Surround mode. I don't think it has done it on 2 channel.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hi 70! I also have a pair of S312's. I've driven them with a variety of receivers, even a 65wpc onkyo and I've never gotten into a protection mode. Even at really loud levels. I would say the Sony is dubiously rated, and its power supply just doesn't have enough to deliver, and maintain the power necessary. (As Lou mentioned in his brilliant analogy as headroom). I found the 92db rating to be fairly high in sensitivity. (Wayne must be comparing to some klipsch speakers :neener: )All good advice above. I would dump the Sony, and never look back.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Agree, that is a reasonably sensitive spec, I guess what I meant was it could still take some real power to drive to loud volume, enough that, as you indicate, the way an AVR is specified and powered could make the difference between enough and no-go.

Also, although the JBL's nominal spec is 8 ohms, it could dip below that a little at low-mid frequencies, challenging that Sony quite a bit more than the older speakers did if THEIR impedance stayed at or above 8 ohms.

Sounds like most are in agreement that the Sony just is not quite enough muscle for the new JBLs.

At least that's the best assessment we can come up with via forum prognostications.


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

sounds good. thank you all for the advice. I ended up getting home late last night.....again. I will try and disconnect everything and hook everything back up and then try again. see what happens. I will post back the results. If anything. I will also put my Yamaha aventage rxa1040 in the LR to replace the sony. Put the sony in the gameroom. worst case scenario. thx.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hi Wayne. Of course I was fun'n ya a bit. My experience with them has echoed what you said. They're easy to drive but I'm sure they dip down to at at least 6ohms in places. Short anecdote. My daily driver txnr808(135wpc, 45lb ship weight) never seems to run out of gas when pushing my 312's. My bedroom avr otoh, a pioneer 1019ahk,(125wpc) when hooked up to them makes its shortcomings known in short order. It sounds great, but weighs about 15lbs less(iirc) and you can hear it "fading" away when its leaned on.(this has happened with others too) In the 808's menu the impedance selector is for 4ohms, or 6 and up. I can't remember the pioneers options. I've spent a lot of time trying to set them up, and have found their performance very satisfying despite being a commercial speaker. My goal is external amps, and I really think they'll respond amazingly, but I'll be waiting awhile. Curiously I've never put anything I've hooked up to them into protection mode.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Of course I was fun'n ya a bit.


No prob.

Yeah, there are specs and then there are the deeper specs and the real world experiences we run into with combinations of AVRs and speakers. I still run my electrostatics with my lowly Onkyo TX-SR705, which specs at:

"100 watts minimum continuous power per channel, 8 ohm loads, 2 channels driven from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, with a maximum total harmonic distortion of 0.08%"

Sounds OK, but not overly impressive, until you look deeper, and Onkyo also says:

"Dynamic Power 240 W + 240 W (3 Ω, Front)"

Which is how I use it primarily. And it feels quite capable, even with reasonable volume, although you can tell it has its limitations (it has never gone into protection, you can just feel it is time to pull back). More recently I have been running them off the Axiom ADA-1250 digital 4-channel amp, only using 2 channels, kind of a monster, I can barely lift it (actually my back surgeon forbids those weights any more, I have to call on my son's muscle to move it around), and you can tell it has much deeper reserves, I have pushed them pretty hard and never felt the need to hold back.

I guess the lesson is that there are specs and there are deeper specs/real world experience, including realities of speaker impedance curves, and it just sounds like that little Sony is being taxed beyond its true capabilities.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Indeed. When I worked in sales, we used to say, "liars can figure, and figures can lie". Seems fairly appt here. Now I'm off to figure out why my 5000wpc htib won't pressurize my home office....


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

how about some good....reasonably priced amps for my system? thx.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Not knowing your budget,I'd suggest starting with emotiva. Bang for the buck is really high. I've been watching eBay for some, and also on eBay, I've watched some nice adcom 555's. They're a little older but measure off the charts. For about 300 bucks to the door, I say good value. Also a lot of the guys here use pro amps by Yamaha, peavey, and behringer, etc. tons of options. Pawn shops are usually full of used pro gear. Might be worth a trip.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

Some quick math that will explain why you're hitting the Protect Mode on your receiver:

The unit dB is a logarithmic scale that measures changes in levels that are too large to track linearly. What that means is where deciBels ADD, watts MULTIPLY. Here's the simplest version...

+10dB = 10X Watts (conveniently, +3dB = ~2X watts, and +6dB = ~4X watts)

If we apply that idea to the specs on your speakers, namely the Sensitivity, we get the following figures:
92dB @ 1W
102dB @ 10W
112dB @ 100W
122dB @ 1000W

Your speakers have a Max Power rating of 250W, meaning that the will produce a peak dB SPL of ~116
(92+10+10+3+~1 = ~116). But if you're watching a movie and the SPL in your vieweing area is around 103dB, a loud sound effect in the movie could theoretically generate an SPL of 123dB, which would mean your speakers need 1000W+ to reproduce that signal. 

Your receiver's specs are a little vague... the most optimistic reading of them suggests that the front channels can deliver 110W into 6 Ω (at 1kHz, 1%THD)... but in terms of dB SPL, that's ~112dB. That's respectably loud, but consider that 115dB in this case would require 200W, and 118dB would require 400W... suddenly bouncing off the protection circuitry doesn't seem that far-fetched. 

The main reason the protect mode clamps down so fast is that while the amp might be able to dissipate the heat, and the power supply might be able to deliver the current, you'll be clipping the signal and sending massive amounts of distortion to the speakers. This is has very serious consequences, as clipped signals have the potential to overheat voice coils much faster than clean signals at higher power. Sony has opted to shut the outputs off when certain levels of clipping are detected rather than field all the angry phone calls about a 110W amp destroying 250W speakers. (Good move, Sony)

The good news is that you're not going to harm your speakers any time soon... the bad news is that under seemingly normal circumstances, that receiver can't drive those speakers at the desired level while watching movies. The worse news is that after looking up your receiver, it doesn't appear that you have any pre-outs other than the two for the subs. What this means is that you basically need a new receiver with a much beefier amp section, OR you need a pre-amp/processor with line level outs and an outboard amp. 

The Emotivas are pretty well-known in these forums but they can be pricey. I'm running an Outlaw 975 (extremely flexible connectivity, REALLY low price considering the feature set, but very stripped down in terms of menu options and user-editable settings), and I'm quite happy. The downside to this approach is that it requires an amplifier channel for each output channel as the pre/proc is incapable of driving speakers by itself. Obviously, this gets expensive pretty fast. 

My old Yamaha had pre-outs in addition to amplified outs, so that might be a viable solution for you as well. 

As for an amp that would drive those speakers adequately, the Crown XLS1000 is a good match at 215W @ 8 Ω.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Very nice analysis, very detailed. It is worth noting that the original speakers, the JBL e90, were less efficient, and he did not run into protection problems with them. Thus the suggestion that impedance curve might be a factor, if it dipped below 8 ohms, which is not uncommon even with a speaker rated nominally at 8 ohms. Just a thing worth mentioning. Thanks again for the nice analysis though, it is very helpful.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yeah, that was a good read. Thanks.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

Good point Wayne... and after you mentioned it, I do recall reading that earlier in the thread. Can't believe I missed that... but I have another theory:

Maybe the lower power handling capacity of the S312ii's causes them to distort at lower power levels than the e90's (440W vs the s312ii's 250W) and it's the distortion that triggers the protection mode. It wouldn't be that difficult for the amp to detect some level of distortion in the signal and call that the trigger for a shut-down... 

I thought about a resonance (air column, port, or driver) causing the impedance to get weird at some frequency, but those usually drive impedance up which would NOT cause the amp to try and deliver more power... though I suppose that resonance could cause the aforementioned distortion and trigger the shutdown that way. 

I could be wrong. I'm just some guy.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

You are being very thorough. I like that.

You could be right. I don't normally think of the max power specs on speakers being points where anything particular happens, just power levels to watch out for, lest damage possibly occur. In this case, though, the spec difference is very large, 440:250, or 1.76:1, and I agree that it is conceivable that the Sony could be receiving some back-emf from driver non-linearity, pushing it into protection mode. If that was the case, naturally the distortion would not be heard, as all sound would come to a screeching halt in a fraction of a second. Interesting theory.

And, as you say, all the more reason to consider a beefier amp.

I wonder if the OP has considered an outboard power amp? Even just for the mains, let the Sony handle all the surround power, which should be easy duty for it.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

I think an outboard amp was the conclusion OP reached... but that model doesn't have pre-outs that I saw, so he may be up a creek without a new AVR or pre/proc.


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

Thank you all for the advice. Mclain great explanation. I am going to hit the pawn shops.

BUT good news is:

Everything is fine now. I disconnected everything and started from scratch. I put on new plugs on all 7 speakers. Wiped all dust off. Reconnected everything and crossed my fingers. I blasted songs like the hills, love me, bounce it, etc. And of course some of my rock songs like from can to cant, staind, metallica, etc. Bass was awesome and no protector mode. So I moved on to movies. Still crossing my fingers. I started with Jurassic Park (the trex part), Battle LA, Star Wars, etc. Happy to say it jammed and no protector mode. Before playing the songs and movies I went through the settings to make sure all was well. I noticed the front speakers were on large. I can swear I had them on small before the move. Either way I fixed it and everything is working great. I guess it was a messed up speaker cable or plug. So does this mean my poor Sony AVR is better than we thought? I will never buy sony again thats for sure. I will stick to yamaha and onkyo. Thank you all!!

I do have one last question:

If I was to put the front speakers on Large. Would that just give me more bass sound? I have both my subs on 100 crossover. thx.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

Sounds like it just needed some attention. That's always the cheapest solution. Sometimes NASA Mission Control will recommend you tap the gauge with a pen before you start doing stupid stuff. 

Typically, if your Front L/R are set to Large the AVR will send the LFE channel to those channels, and disengage any HPF it might have. Conversely, if you're set to Small the AVR will separate the LFE channel and engage the HPF for the front channels. 

Generally speaking, having your front speakers and your subwoofer reproducing the same frequency range is not desirable. What tends to happen is you'll get phase cancellation at various places in the room, and at various frequencies depending on the location. (Known in the live-sound world as comb filtering). At high frequencies, these effects can be tolerable... but at low frequencies it can be anywhere from noticeable to nauseating. (LF Comb Filtering is the subject of huge amounts of debate and research). 

So, no... don't set your front speakers to Large if you're happy with the sub. It might be worth digging into the manual and seeing if you can find a cutoff frequency for the HPF when Front L/R is set to Small, and matching the crossover on your sub to that number. That might well keep your amp section happier and operating more efficiently. 

One final thought: If you DO set your fronts to Large and you find you LIKE the sound, ignore everything I said and do what you think sounds good. It's your house, and they're your ears.


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

Thx Mclain. I will leave them on small.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I would leave them on small too, but I would never cross them at 100hz. I'd at least go down to 80. The thing to do is experiment a little. I have crossed mine as low as 40, and used 50 for a long time.(the main reason I did that was when I moved my sub to the rear I had localization issues, but now I have 3 so I'm trying 80). I've stayed at 80 for awhile now. My space is huge so my low end is a little easier to tame. Ymmv, but don't be afraid to play around.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Funny. Take apart, put together again just as it was (we _think_), and it works. Something is different that matters and we may never know what. _"It's a mystery!"_ (movie??) Glad it is serving you well.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> I would leave them on small too, but I would never cross them at 100hz. I'd at least go down to 80. The thing to do is experiment a little. I have crossed mine as low as 40, and used 50 for a long time.(the main reason I did that was when I moved my sub to the rear I had localization issues, but now I have 3 so I'm trying 80). I've stayed at 80 for awhile now. My space is huge so my low end is a little easier to tame. Ymmv, but don't be afraid to play around.


Agree, at least down to 80. Although 80 is commonly declared the magic number, I have a couple of music tracks with bass lines that do some moving around even with 80 crossover. Sixty is very safe in that regard. For movies, 80 seems to works great.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

I like my subs crossed over much higher... 100Hz, 120Hz, even 140Hz when I'm feeling saucy. I can see the logic on both sides of this argument though. 

As Willis said, the thing to do is experiment. Your gear is going to behave how it behaves, and you're going to hear what you're going to hear... and ultimately they put that knob there so you could turn it.


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

Thx guys....Ill move some knobs around......

so the lower the crossover....the deeper the bass?


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

The lower the crossover, the more the bass will sound like it is coming from the right direction. Try 80. Do not go lower than 60. Do not go higher than 80. That gives you 2 choices to _experiment_ with, right? Easy!:T


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

DqMcClain said:


> I like my subs crossed over much higher... 100Hz, 120Hz, even 140Hz when I'm feeling saucy.


Easy there, big guy, we're trying to give good advice here, let's don't confuse the OP, nudge nudge, wink wink.:T


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## Legendary70 (Jun 26, 2012)

hahaha. thx raver. I will try both settings tonight.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

The lower the crossover, the lower the cutoff point is for the signal going IN to the sub... technically by lowering that point (from 80Hz to 60Hz, e.g.) you're giving the sub _less_ signal. But what that allows is for the sub to handle that signal more efficiently. More SPL for less power, in effect. The trade-off is that you're giving that signal to your Front L/R instead. Maybe they can handle it, maybe not. 

This is why when you're experimenting, you might also want to consider setting your Front L/R to Large. If your subwoofer crossover point is _too low_ and you're set to Small up front, you might miss out on some tasty mid-bass. Definitely see what the crossover point is on the Sony AVR. That will give you a good ballpark to play around in. 




AudiocRaver said:


> Easy there, big guy, we're trying to give good advice here, let's don't confuse the OP, nudge nudge, wink wink.:T


 Indeed. 

I cross mine over in that neighborhood because of placement, the variability of my pre/proc's Front X-over, and the sound I like. It takes Diff'rent Strokes to move the world.... yes it does.


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