# AVR pre out question



## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

Hi - i have a marantz 7002 - using the pre out for the rest of my gear and amp etc. 

question is - Can you raise the signal level that the pre outs give in this AVR - or any other AVR etc. 

or is it just fixed and thats it - what ever it gives out - - 

thanks -


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Yes, you have adjustments in the menu that will allow you to raise the output to about 1v thats usually enough to run most pro grade amps and processors without the need to use a Direct box but not always.


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

hi - thanks for that info - but i am not sure where in the menu i can do that - 

i have the Marantz 7002 AVR - of all the times i ran the setup or made speaker adjustments etc. - i never noticed anything about pre outs - adjustments etc. - 

would you know where i need to look for this ? 

thanks -


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## 86eldel68-deactivated (Nov 30, 2010)

expresso said:


> i have the Marantz 7002 AVR - of all the times i ran the setup or made speaker adjustments etc. - i never noticed anything about pre outs - adjustments etc. -
> 
> would you know where i need to look for this ?


In your owner's manual, see:
- the right-hand column on page 43; and
- item #3 in the right-hand column on page 65.

(You can also search for "7.1 ch" in the on-line PDF manual (14.3Mb).)


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

OH whow - i got it now - i actually knew that - but didnt know that was the adjustment for the pre outs - 
when i run setup - it adjusts those levels - i never touched the fronts - i usually raise the center so i can hear when i watch movies - and usually raise the gains on my amp - just seems to sound better - 
does lowering those levels or raising those level affect a low hiss i get from my speakers - tweeter when everything is on - with no music playing etc. ? i know if i lower the gains on the amp - it gets lower - 
but someone told me that if i can get a hotter signal coming out of the pre outs - then that may lower the hiss ? being that it may be over the floor noise level and drown it out - 

it makes some sense to me - but i always though the pre outs where set at a certain level - Volts etc. - 

i just did a quick check and it shows for the 7002 - input sensitivity at 168mv - 

i checked a yamaha A2012 and it shows 200mv -- 

i though or think thats the pre outs level - ? 

i may be wrong - after 3 years with this AVR - i am still learning  

does this make any sense ? what i been told - ?


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## HTip (Oct 10, 2011)

I'm a bit confused. I also have a Marantz (SR9600) so I was wondering if the solution presented by tonyvdb is for the 7.1-CH *input* and not the 7.1-CH *output*.

@expresso: Do you own an dB-meter? Then you can set all channels accordingly to 75dB(C). You will probable need a calibration disc as well.


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

let me explain myself better - i am getting confused also here now - i dont have a problem setting the levels with the Mic during setup etc. - 

i am curious about the pre outs - normally with home audio - they give out a -10db signal - compared to Pro audio at +4 db - 

i dont think rasing the speaker line level will raise that -10db signal ? 

is that correct ? 

i am using pro audio gear in my rack with the 7002 - 

i have no way of knowing how hot that signal is coming out of the marantz is - and was wondering if there is a way to raise it - i guess that would mean making it hotter than the -10 db that everyone says home audio gear sends out - 

raising the line level in the speaker setup - what exactly does the pre out do when i raise or lower the speaker levels -

what i am trying to achieve if its even possible - seems less likely now - is to lower the floor noise of my system - 

when i turn everything on - with nothing playing - i have a low hiss if i put my ear near the speaker tweeter - 

this is what i am trying to lower even more if i can with some minor adjustment -


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

HTip said:


> I'm a bit confused. I also have a Marantz (SR9600) so I was wondering if the solution presented by tonyvdb is for the 7.1-CH *input* and not the 7.1-CH *output*.


I was referring to the pre-outs not the 7.1 analog inputs.

The pre-outs can be adjusted in the user menu under speaker settings (normally this defaults at 0db and is usually around 400mv) normally called level adjustment and can be raised to +12db if necessary giving an effective boost to the output level. 
-10db is normal for consumer grade equipment, this is adjustable by the speaker level and at +12db is about 1.2v giving enough boost that its usually enough to use pro grade amps and processors. Ideally this voltage on pr grade or balanced signal is 1.5v


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

oh ok cool - i didnt know this - so this brings me to another question i have now - 

i am using a aphex exciter and EQ - pro amp - - 

starts off with the pre outs on the marantz - going to the exciter which i have it set at -10 db because i believed thats the correct way - 

then from the exciter its going into a line level shifter -- which converts a -10 bd to a +4db -- 

coming out of the line level at +4db - it goes into the EQ and out to the Amp - out to speakers - 

using all 1/4 connections - - 

now i am curious - did i really need the line level shifter in the first place ? - 

if my line level for the speakers are at +7 db for one and +7.5 db for the other - one is farther away from where i sit - the setup put it at those levels - 

at this level - what exactly would my pre out be giving me ? would it be giving me -3db signal to start off ? 

i added the line level in the mix recently once i found out that the pro gear works best with a +4 signal - 

this could explain why i havnt seen or heard a big jump in line level after i added it - because maybe the signal was already higher than -10db to start with - 

does this make any sense ? 

now if i put my speaker levels to +12 on both of them - or maybe one at +11.5 - to keep them both adjusted the same way - 

what harm would this do if any ?

would just sound louder i would think - with music i wont mind - with HT movies - i would have to lower the gains for the fronts just to have the Center keep up - to hear the talking - 


i wonder if i take the line level out of the mix and put the speaker line all the way up - 

gives me something to try now


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

It cant hurt to try removing the line level shifter (direct box) remember that every device you have between the source and the speakers will add noise.


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

to be honest - its a passive device and i didnt notice any noise from that when i added it - 
i know the EQ and Amp - adds to it for sure - the exciter is actually very low noise - i recently added that to try it - i ended up keeping it - i was using it with the amp etc - but since i had the EQ in the rack doing nothing and i do like that also - i just looped it back in the chain - 

i will play around with it tomorrow - 
but if i do raise the speaker levels to +12 and +11.5 etc. - 

i remove the line level from the mix - what would be the output signal ? 

would it be +4 or close to it - or over it ?

if so i can use the +4 switch on the exciter from the pre outs - 

right now i have that set at -10db - i got the pre outs from the AVR going right to the exciter first in the chain - then looping it to the line level and EQ next - Amp last - 


what would my pre out signal be more or less if i raised it the max and removed the line level shifter ?

funny how up till about a month ago - i always ran my pro gear with my home avr etc. - never crossed my mind - because i didnt know -


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Thats a tough question to answer, You will just have to try and see what works best. Thats the fun part (or anoying part depending on how you look at it) about this hobby.


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Hey expresso,




expresso said:


> ...does lowering those levels or raising those level affect a low hiss i get from my speakers - tweeter when everything is on - with no music playing etc. ? i know if i lower the gains on the amp - it gets lower -
> but someone told me that if i can get a hotter signal coming out of the pre outs - then that may lower the hiss ?


It all depends on where the source of the noise is. If it’s the amp, the naturally lowering its gains will reduce the noise. However, if it’s the AVR, then increasing its signal levels will increase the noise.




expresso said:


> - but i always though the pre outs where set at a certain level - Volts etc. -


Nope. There is no pre-set level. It varies with the volume control. If anything is “pre-set,” it’s the maximum output level – which is seldom ever realized because the signal is often, it not typically, clipped at maximum output.




expresso said:


> i am curious about the pre outs - normally with home audio - they give out a -10db signal - compared to Pro audio at +4 db -
> 
> i have no way of knowing how hot that signal is coming out of the marantz is - and was wondering if there is a way to raise it - i guess that would mean making it hotter than the -10 db that everyone says home audio gear sends out -


 Contrary to what you have obviously heard, professional-grade processors do not need pro-level signals to operate properly. They will work fine with whatever signal level then receive. The primary difference is that pro processors are designed to accept very high signal levels without clipping, but they don’t _require_ high levels. 

The only two real things of concern when using pro gear in a residential system are: 1) making sure the processor is quiet enough for a hi-fi system (some aren’t), and 2) making sure your front-end (AVR or pre-pro) has enough output signal to drive an amplifier. There is no shortage of pro amps that only need about 1 volt RMS to drive them to clipping (including your QSC GX), and no shortage of AVRs that can deliver a signal of that magnitude.




expresso said:


> what i am trying to achieve if its even possible - seems less likely now - is to lower the floor noise of my system -
> 
> when i turn everything on - with nothing playing - i have a low hiss if i put my ear near the speaker tweeter -


I have an article on gain structure that you can find in my signature. Parts 7, 8 and 9 cover all the concerns and issues you’ve raised here. 

Regards,
Wayne


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## HTip (Oct 10, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> I was referring to the pre-outs not the 7.1 analog inputs.
> 
> The pre-outs can be adjusted in the user menu under speaker settings (normally this defaults at 0db and is usually around 400mv) normally called level adjustment and can be raised to +12db if necessary giving an effective boost to the output level.
> -10db is normal for consumer grade equipment, this is adjustable by the speaker level and at +12db is about 1.2v giving enough boost that its usually enough to use pro grade amps and processors. Ideally this voltage on pr grade or balanced signal is 1.5v


Thanks for the info. I didn't know that either. I thought that the level adjustment only effected the output to the speakers.

I have a stereo amplifier with power amp function connected to the front pre-outs and levels set at 0 dB. The others channels are trimmed down cause the receiver has more power output. If I understand correctly I could have raised the front outputs to match the levels from the receiver. That is good to know.

Thanks again :T


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

yeah i guess - funny thing is its been so long i been using the Amp etc. - last week i went back to using the Marantz alone - nothing in the mix at all - and i didnt like it - i went right back to adding everything in the mix again - with the marantz alone - it was a bit quieter overall - the exciter adds very little to it - 
doing a little research on each piece - i realized actually the EQ has the lowest S/N at 97 - compared to the rest of my gear - and its actually not that bad either - compared to other EQ's i heard before - the amp is at 100 - marantz is at 105 - so bottom line is everything i am doing is not going to change the bottom line - 

i got the line level shifter because i came across the exciter which had the switch for both levels -10 and +4 -- so i started to question that - and then read that home audio works on -10 and pro works best at +4 - so from there - i got the line level shifter thinking i would at least level it all out -- 

funny thing is - everything worked fine before i added the line level also - so that leaves me the question that maybe being that i already had fronts at +7 in the marantz speaker level - which i didnt know was actually the pre outs level -- 

that might have been the reason there wasnt much a different in line level after i added it - i might have already been at +4 or close to it - or maybe even over it - 

tomorrow i will remove the line level from the mix all together - and put the switch to +4 on the exciter - just to see what that does - if anything - put the speaker levels to there max at +12 and +11 for the other - one is closer to me -- and see how that sounds - at those settings - the marantz would max out at 0db -- on the front panel - 

i never went that far before because it was really loud anyway - so thats not a issue - 

from what i am understanding now - putting the speaker level on the marantz to +12 would give me more volts which would most likely be enough to not use the line level anyway - 

at the start when i just had the marantz and added the amp - no exciter - no eq - it worked fine also - 

i just needed some more high end out of my speakers - they are bottom heavy - to balance it out - 

so i went with the EQ which i love also - DBX 1215 -- but it did add to the floor noise a bit - 

now i added the exciter and used that alone with no EQ - and i like that also - easier to tune with the knobs - 

i let you know how it works out with out the line level - 

thanks for all the input - i learned alot - - much more to learn -


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

i think i read that and got me thinking also - its good to read a few times to fully understand it - 
% 
and really my only concern was to lower the floor noise - even though a friend of mines dosnt hear it at all - hes a little deaf i think -  but its not bad at all - i mean you do have to get your ear close to the speaker to hear it - 

the amp fan was the loudest part - which i changed from the start - and yes - if i raise the gains - it does get higher - keeping the gains at half way works best for floor noise - but i like the sound with a little more gain from the amp - around the two o clock mark - 3 o clock at most - 

i may be trying to solve something that really cant be solved unless like you said - change out the gear one at a time and replace it - which is not going to happen  i am 90% happy overall - nothing can be 100% - 

just good to know these facts - 

The only two real things of concern when using pro gear in a residential system are: 1) making sure the processor is quiet enough for a hi-fi system (some aren’t), and 2) making sure your front-end (AVR or pre-pro) has enough output signal to drive an amplifier. There is no shortage of pro amps that only need about 1 volt RMS to drive them to clipping (including your QSC GX), and no shortage of AVRs that can deliver a signal of that magnitude.


I have an article on gain structure that you can find in my signature. Parts 7, 8 and 9 cover all the concerns and issues you’ve raised here. 

Regards,
Wayne
[/FONT][/QUOTE]


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

expresso said:


> tomorrow i will remove the line level from the mix all together - and put the switch to +4 on the exciter - just to see what that does - if anything -


The level switch merely shifts the exciter’s operating range between consumer (-10) and pro (+4). The latter allows it to accept high-level signals, but probably isn’t as quiet (background noise) as the -10 position.

I just noticed you’re using Klipsch speakers, which are very efficient – meaning, it doesn’t take much power to drive them compared to other speakers. IOW, you can drive them to a given SPL with say, 50 watts where it would take say, 300 watts or more to drive other speakers to the same SPL.

The problem with highly-efficient speakers is that they magnify system noise. So, anything you can do to reduce the potential for noise will be beneficial: Keep the Exciter in the -10 position and lower the amplifier gains. I've seen people with high-efficiency speakers who had to resort to lower-powered amplifiers in order to improve their background noise issues. 

Regards,
Wayne


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

i see - - i will remove the line level and see how it works out - from the way things are shaping up - 

dosnt seem i will be able to lower it - with the gains - it does get lower - and also bypass the EQ helps also - but then i dont like the sound as much  

and yes - the klipsch can be run with low power amps - but i feel the 82 really wake up with amp power much better - 

i have another set of Klipsch in the fronts also - those are KG 3 - smaller and those work great with the Marantz power alone - or with the sub - they are more open and brighter - 

the problem with the 82s are - they need more room to breath - about two feet away from the wall - which i cant give them - so they are bottom heavy because of that - and they even toned down the highs with this model - now they changed the newer ones and give off a bit more highs - 

i dont like the 82s with out the amp - the smaller ones are ok with the AVR - not the 82's - i can really make full use of those with the GX5 amp -


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> The level switch merely shifts the exciter’s operating range between consumer (-10) and pro (+4). The latter allows it to accept high-level signals, but probably isn’t as quiet (background noise) as the -10 position.
> 
> I just noticed you’re using Klipsch speakers, which are very efficient – meaning, it doesn’t take much power to drive them compared to other speakers. IOW, you can drive them to a given SPL with say, 50 watts where it would take say, 300 watts or more to drive other speakers to the same SPL.
> 
> ...


question about the gains - what excatly is there purpose ? i see amps with a 32db gain - etc. in the specs - but no knobs or anything on the outside of the amp - so all you do is plug it in and play - 
in that situation how do you ajust the gains - or does the amp just run at the full 32 db gain ?

if i run my gx5 at half gain - does that limit the power the amp will put out ? i like how it opens it up more when i turn the gains up a bit more - 

just curious as to what am i really doing when i raise or lower the gains on the gx5 amp - i know its not a volume control but it does affect the sound levels also -


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

expresso said:


> question about the gains - what excatly is there purpose ? i see amps with a 32db gain - etc. in the specs - but no knobs or anything on the outside of the amp - so all you do is plug it in and play -
> in that situation how do you ajust the gains - or does the amp just run at the full 32 db gain ?


In some situations the gain is adjustable using a PC connection or there are small adjustable controls on the rear or front that you use a flat head screwdriver to turn.



> if i run my gx5 at half gain - does that limit the power the amp will put out ? i like how it opens it up more when i turn the gains up a bit more -


no, You need to look at the LED signal indicators on the front that tells you if your at the amps maximum level or not. Generally keeping them below the peak LED is where you get the most output without distortion or noise.
But remeber if you feed it a noisy signal all you will do is amplify the noise as well. "garbage in, garbage out"


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

i dont think my gear is all that bad - its decent - i wont say its Hi Fi - but not low end either - 
i never seen my amp hit the Red clip light - now matter how loud i played - the most i kept the gains at was at 3 o clock - and still never a red light - would this mean that i am not really using all the power ? which is ok with me - i mean its loud - cant keep it there for long - 

i did a check on the specs of the marantz and gx5 - 

marantz shows - 168mv - input sen. 

GX5 show - 1.2 Vrms - 

those specs - what does that mean - more or less - 


A friend of mines is waiting to get the Emotiva Xpa 2 amp - which looks great - not sure what is in there - and why does it need so much stuff in there to get 500 watts at 4 ohms - when the GX5 and other pro amps have barely nothing in them and give off tons of power - 

i am sure it must be for a good reason - i never got the emotiva amp because its just too big and heavy - 

but that amp shows a 32 db gain - when you read the specs - but nothing on the amp lets you adjust anything - he is building a system around Emotiva - speakers - amp -pre amp and cd player - its not done yet - but would be interesting to hear that when its done - it has no controls what so ever to adjust gains - or tone controls etc. - everything is just plug it in and play it - how ever it sounds thats it 

only the speakers he got from them - 8.3 model has a few toggle switches in the rear to add or minus 2 db for each high mid and low - but thats it - 

so that emotiva amp - how does the gain work ? does it just raise with the volume as you go lounder - the gain gets higher ? 

the speakers are 4 ohms - and less sensitive than the klipsch at i think 89db - he also owns the 82s - which run on a marantz and gx5 amp also - he followed me with that system with the dbx EQ also - 


i am curious to hear that system and floor noise - i feel it will be much quieter - was just curious about the gains on that amp - compared to pro amps that have adjustment gains - 

i dont know what the difference is between the mv - and Vrms -


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Dont read so much into the numbers, it really does not matter as long as the sound you hear is clean and not distorted then thats all you need. I does not matter to the amp if your only using 35% of its maximum the sound should not change.
Too much power is always better than not enough.


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

your got that right - too much with the numbers - and you get more confused - it sounds great to me - could it be better - sure it can - but i have to work with in my budget - does very well for my needs - 

i just removed the line level i had in the mix - i put the exciter at -10 and listen quickly to floor noise and sound - etc. - 

then i put it to +4 and did the same - no difference in floor noise - sound just as good - i do notice the lights on my EQ - power levels -10db come on much sooner - Vol on marantz was at -40db and the light came on - so its a hotter signal thats for sure - 

before that -10db EQ light didnt come on till about -20db or -15db etc. depends on the CD - song also - 

so its louder sooner now - i have the speaker levels at +12 in the AVR - 

i left it that way - will give a good listen tomorrow when i lay back on the recliner and play some music 

so bottom line for me - the line level didnt do much if anything - i guess because i already had a hotter signal coming out of the pre outs - must have been more than -10 - 

it didnt add to any floor noise either - so didnt hurt but didnt do it for me - as for my friend - it did raise it for him - i would have to guess - his pre outs were not giving out a hotter signal and therefore it made the difference for him - he has a marantz also but not a AVR - Intergrated Marantz - no speaker level controls to raise or lower the line - 

i do notice a bit less floor noise when i use the Oppo for music - rather than the marantz cd player - which i was surprised - i figure the marantz was better being i have the BD 80 Oppo -


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

expresso said:


> question about the gains - what excatly is there purpose ? i see amps with a 32db gain - etc. in the specs - but no knobs or anything on the outside of the amp - so all you do is plug it in and play -


When you see a number like “32 dB gain” I think means something about the amount of signal gain at the outputs vs. what comes to the inputs. That has nothing to do with the amp’s gain _controls_, if that’s what you’re asking.




> i see amps with a 32db gain - etc. in the specs - but no knobs or anything on the outside of the amp - so all you do is plug it in and play - in that situation how do you ajust the gains - or does the amp just run at the full 32 db gain ?


Amps with no gain controls are typically consumer amps. It’s not unusual for them to not have gain controls because there is a relative uniformity in signal levels in consumer equipment, from the playback media on down the line.




> if i run my gx5 at half gain - does that limit the power the amp will put out ? i like how it opens it up more when i turn the gains up a bit more -
> 
> just curious as to what am i really doing when i raise or lower the gains on the gx5 amp - i know its not a volume control but it does affect the sound levels also -


Part 6 of my gain structure article explains about amps and gain controls. Sounds like it would do you good to take a look at it. 




expresso said:


> i never seen my amp hit the Red clip light - now matter how loud i played - the most i kept the gains at was at 3 o clock - and still never a red light -


And you never will with those speakers. You could drive them to ear-bleeding levels with a 100-watt amp with power to spare.




> i did a check on the specs of the marantz and gx5 -
> 
> marantz shows - 168mv - input sen.
> 
> ...


 Both are INPUT sensitivities. Since you don’t feed the input of one component to the input of another, they don’t have a relation to each other.




> A friend of mines is waiting to get the Emotiva Xpa 2 amp - which looks great - not sure what is in there - and why does it need so much stuff in there to get 500 watts at 4 ohms - when the GX5 and other pro amps have barely nothing in them and give off tons of power -


Many pro amps these days utilize switchmode power supplies that allows them to be lighter because they don’t need massive power supplies. However, many audiophile manufacturers are not convinced that the technology is clean enough for hi-fi.




> so that emotiva amp - how does the gain work ? does it just raise with the volume as you go lounder - the gain gets higher ?


As above – it’s a consumer amp and therefore gain controls aren’t really needed. This is explained in Part 2 of my gain structure article. Maybe you should just bite the bullet and wade through the whole thing. 

Regards,
Wayne


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

i cant seem to find it - i read it first time i found it - but dont know how to find it again -


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> I have an article on gain structure that you can find in my signature.


Regards,
Wayne


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

Thanks - i found it last night - i have to be honest - i get some of it - i dont get it all -- but its ok - 
i got enough of it not to worry about this anymore and just get back to enjoying it  

in the future i was thinking of adding more amps - for the rears and center - just curious how good are the Carvin amps ? for some reason i never ran across them when i was searching for an amp - and now i just did and like what i see and read about them - i really liked the 4 channel model - even though i would really use only 3 of those channel - that would work for the rear surrounds and center - would only need 2 rack spaces - not too bad - and leave the GX 5 for the fronts as is - 

are they quality amps ? at least compared to QSC ? i like the lightweight - really not into 80 pound amps - 

thanks -


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

The current Carvin amps have the switchmode power supplies I mentioned. I’m happy with the one I have for my subs, but I’ve never tried it on the main channels.

Regards,
Wayne


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

i will keep carvin in mind for any future amps - strange how i never found them in searches before -- 

i listened last night and something was off - i decided to put everything back the way i had it - line level also - and lowered the speaker levels back to where they were - i raised my gains on the amp - like how it sounds - yeah a little more floor noise but once the music is on - sounds very nice - so i have to live with it - i tried to do a few things but really made things worse - - i lived with it for past 3 years - i am sure i can keep going with it this way  

one thing i did find that wasnt to my liking was i recently added new cables from the pre outs - RCA to 1/4 inch going to the exciter - and while i was back there - i felt there were not really snug in there - i didnt feel a good snap when pushed all the way - when i touched them - it could easily come loose 

so i changed them out back to RCA to XLR - i think that might have been a factor as to why it didnt sound right - it was too late then - to give it a listen again - too late at night - i live in an apt. - cant really play loud for long or late at night - 

i like how the Carvin amps look - specs seem very good - 

do you know from your experience how reliable they are - ? they offer 10 day return - seems not enough time - 30 days is the norm. 

thanks -


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## rob92266 (Dec 16, 2011)

i am running a marantz sr7000 reciever and was wondering if this is the correct way to hook this up:

marantz front, center and sub pre outs going to a 6 channel behringer mx 882, then the outs of the behringer mx 882 to the behringer amps, the epq 2000 amp is running my peavy 15" sub and center channel speaker and the behringer epq 1200 is running the fronts which are dual 15" jbl's with jbl horns, is this correct, i am wondering becouse my amps are maxed out and my marantz has a volume range from -80 to 15 and when im playing tv the volume is usually at -20 to -24, shouldnt it be much louder, i am also using all rca to xlr cables, so far the only thing that i am missing is an amp for my surrounds or is it possible for me to go from the outs to the 1/4" inputs of one amp even though im allready using the xlr inputs of the amp.

both of the behringer amps have xlr, 1/4" and rca inputs

any help would be appreciated


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

it sounds right - but i am not sure what exactly that mx882 is suppose to do - i also have a silimar setup - 
i have a marantz avr with the pre outs going to a Aphex exciter - then out of the exciter to a line level shifter - from there it goes to a Dbx Eq - and out of the EQ to the QSC amp - - which go to my fronts only - i left the center and surrounds to work off the AVR - and it works great - maybe its a setting on the 882 that is off ? or you can give a call to the company or the place you purchased the 882 - i am sure they can help you out - i had a few questions with my exciter and i called the company - were very nice and explained everything i needed to know -


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## rob92266 (Dec 16, 2011)

im sure everything is hooked up fine, but it seems that since im running 3200 watts total, that everything should be alot louder and i shouldnt have to have the gains on my amp turned up all the way and my volume on my reciever is 3/4 turned up


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

something is off some where in the chain - i have my amp gains at 1 o'clock postion - thats barely past the recommended noon settings for my amp - i do have my EQ gain a little bit more - around the 2 o'clock setting - depending on material i am listening too - some dics - songs are just recorded better , louder - then some others - but on Avg. - if i get down to -20 db on my marantz - its very loud - i hardly get down that low because i live in an apt. - i am using Klipsch RF82's - and i dont sit too far from them either - 
so there is something off for sure - check your amps - are they running full range ? or is there any settings or switches in the rear that is not in order ? with my amp - all i have is either full range or crossover which sends one channel a high signal and the other a low - i am using it full range - two channel stereo - just for my fronts - and i am using RCA from the pre outs to XLR also - to the Exciter - and from there - i am using 1/4 inch TRS for the rest of the connections - even my speaker wires are 1/4 inch - TS to bananas - i find them to work great and easy to plug and unplug - 

double check the amp settings if any - 882, any connections etc. - sometimes its a simple thing overlooked -


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Old school design was that having the volume knob past 1/3 was loud and more than half way was maxed out. on todays receivers this is no longer the case. the volume is not measured in % rather in db's. at 0db this would be reference level (75-80Hz) anything above that would be considered loud most receivers only go up to +12db a comfortable level would be at about -15db.


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## rob92266 (Dec 16, 2011)

my front speakers are pa jbls with 1/4 and my sub is the same ( 1/4"), both my amps are set to full range, the other settings are bridged and mono, also my behringer mx882, is a line level changer, the only possible conclusion i can come up with is that i will need another amp for my surrounds instead of using the reciever, im maxed out +10db setting on the surrounds, so when i use my spl meter to match everything i go by the lowest setting which is the surrounds. now with that said, if i use another amp i can raise the db level for all speakers to match and also raise the level on the mx882, which i forgot to tell you is set to about -20db, i think i figured out the problem, all i need is another amp to match all outputs, i hope this all makes sense to you, looks like ill have to spend another 300 on another behringer epq1200 amp. thank for your help


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

i am confused now - from what i understand now is that your rears or surround speakers are running off the AVR power and the rest are all running of Amps - ? so naturally the speakers connected to your AVR would sound much lower than the rest unless you try to match them - being that you maxed out the AVR with the speakers connected to them - its still no match for the amps - you either add a amp to those speakers and then you can match them - or lower the gains on the other amps to match the surrounds which why would you do that - reason for the amps are to play louder  -- 

in my case - i solved that issue by just lowering the gains on the Amp when i watch movies etc. - since i have my Center and Surrounds running off the AVR also - i dont have a problem with my surrounds though - they give off more than enough - i didnt have to raise those levels in the AVR - but i had to raise the Center channel up all the way in order to hear dialogue during movies - since the amp powers the fronts - they over power the Center - so i just lower my gains alot lower during movies - and that gives me a better Center so i can actually hear what they are saying  when done with movies - i put the gains back up where i like them for when i listen to music - usually in two channel mode - i go from direct mode - and Stereo to use the Sub. - i found it to be very nice and more open sounding when i use the sub with the fronts crossed over at 80hz - when i use direct mode - sounds great also - but its more direct sounding - narrow - need to be in the sweet spot - - i go back and forth - enjoy both -


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> Old school design was that having the volume knob past 1/3 was loud and more than half way was maxed out. on todays receivers this is no longer the case. the volume is not measured in % rather in db's. at 0db this would be reference level (75-80Hz) anything above that would be considered loud most receivers only go up to +12db a comfortable level would be at about -15db.


In my case - if i put mines at -15db - would be very loud - i have gone lower during some songs etc. - but have to go back up - cant keep it there for too long - and once i hit a certain level - lets say -15db - 
anything lower just a little lower like -13db - -10db things get really loud very fast 

its a great feeling  - listening to something like - 

Queen - another one bites the dust - at -10 or lower - is an eviction notice for me -


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

expresso said:


> In my case - if i put mines at -15db - would be very loud - i have gone lower during some songs etc. - but have to go back up - cant keep it there for too long - and once i hit a certain level - lets say -15db -
> anything lower just a little lower like -13db - -10db things get really loud very fast
> 
> its a great feeling  - listening to something like -
> ...


that seems incorrect if you used the auto room eq that the receiver has? Do you have an SPL meter? you should run the level calibration for each channel and set them at 75db


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

rob92266 said:


> im sure everything is hooked up fine, but it seems that since im running 3200 watts total, that everything should be alot louder and i shouldnt have to have the gains on my amp turned up all the way and my volume on my reciever is 3/4 turned up





rob92266 said:


> …the level on the mx882, which i forgot to tell you is *set to about -20db,*


*There’s your problem.* The MX’s main input should at 0 dB for starters (until it's determined that a boost to the incoming signal is needed for some reason). That’s the “unity gain” setting, where the signal level going out is the same strength as coming in. Basically, you’ve sucked your Marantz 7000’s output down to nothing, and that’s why you’re having to turn your amp gains to the max.

So give it a try with the MX882 dialed up to 0 dB. 

Actually - if you find you can successfully operate the amps with the MX set at 0 dB, then that means your Marantz is putting out enough voltage to drive the amps and you don’t even need the MX822 at all. That fact that you're currently able to drive the amps with the MX at -20 dB tells me you probably don't need it.

Regards,
Wayne


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## expresso (Oct 12, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> that seems incorrect if you used the auto room eq that the receiver has? Do you have an SPL meter? you should run the level calibration for each channel and set them at 75db


i have used the AVR eq setup - i let the AVR set the line level for all the speakers - i always do that first - 
but i am using a Amp for the fronts only - and that power over powers the Center 99% of the times when watching Blu rays - i think alot of people have that problem where you Cant hear what they are saying - during movies - i notice it happens most with HD audio from the blu rays - with the other older audio formats - i can easily use the EQ settings to adjust for that - but with HD Audio - you can use the Eq from the AVR - it wont work with HD audio from blu rays - -- i have my AVR decode the audio - now if i have my DVD player decode it first and send it to my AVR - then i am able to play around with the EQ - but i like it better having the AVR decode it - - Even if i had the DVD player decode it - i still have issues with Dialogue on most dvd movies - blu rays etc. - so in order to compensate for this - i just raise the line level for the Center from the AVR to the max which is +12 - leave the rest the way setup put them - i might have raised the surrounds maybe 1db more each side - sounded better to me - the fronts which run off the amp - i lower the gains when i watch movies only so that it dosnt over power the Center - between raising the Center line level in the AVR - and lowering the Gains on the Amp for the fronts - i am able to hear dialogue and still hear the fronts - rears - etc. - everything sounds fine to me - now i understand about setting everything to a certain level - like 75db etc. - but every setup is different - room etc. - our own personal hearing - 
i am very satisfied with my sound now - i listen to music more than movies - my first concern was getting to sound good to my ears with music - and once i did - i had to make some adjustments so it would work with movies also - 

now unless i add an amp for all my speakers - then run setup again and let the AVR set the levels - that would work out better overall - and i bet even then - i would have to make a minor adjustment for the Center in order to hear what they are saying with movies - this is a combination of the DVD recording itself -blu rays are the worst for that - and also my Center channel is a bit lower than ear level so that dosnt help - but sounds fine with everything else - just with movies - its harder to hear - 

once i added the amp to the mix for the fronts - changed everything - if i would have left it all connected to the AVR - all speakers - would be much easier to fine tune front center - 

this is a work in progress when you get involved with HT - Music etc. - some setups work great out of the box - run the AVR setup - and leave it alone - i think most need to be adjusted -


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## rob92266 (Dec 16, 2011)

since my previous post i have added another behringer epq 1200 for the surrounds, so now i have a dedicated amp for each set of speakers, i have raised the volume floor up a little but nothing dramatic, im just wondering if i have the mx882 hooked up wrong, the way i have this hooked up is as follows:

marantz sr7000 pre outs going to inputs on channels 2-6 on mx882 (not using main in or outs on mx882, if i have to use these, which channels do i put in there and what settings on the mx882 )

then from the outs on the mx882 to each channel on the amps

so is this correct

need some help here


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Judging from the connection scheme you gave us at this post, and the level adjustments for the MX822 you gave us at this post, it sounds like you have everything connected correctly. Basically, if you’re getting a signal on the MX822 level meters (indicating a legitimate incoming signal), and the amps are working, then you have everything connected correctly.

It seems your real concern isn’t so much the connection scheme as the fact that you believe your Marantz should be running at extremely low volume-control settings, and that the amps shouldn’t have to have their gain controls set so high. 

However, you have to understand that the amp’s gain controls are there to compensate for whatever signal level they are receiving. If that signal is low, then the amps by default require a higher gain setting. And low signal levels are part-and-parcel to home audio front ends, so it’s not unreasonable to expect that high amp gain settings are needed. It’s possible that the Marantz isn’t putting out a hot enough signal to drive the amps. For some reason Behringer doesn’t publish an input sensitivity spec for the EPQ amps, so it’s impossible to tell how suitable they are for use in a home system. 

However, the MX822 can compensate for the Marantz’s lower signal, if need be. That’s what those gain settings for each of its 6 channels are for. But keep in mind that there is no free lunch: Boosting the MX gain settings in order to run lower amp gain settings may not get you a lower noise floor. You’re just trading one gain boost for another.

You’ve already found my gain structure article. What you need to do is follow the simple steps outlined in Parts 7 and 9 to:
(1) make sure your Marantz is putting out enough voltage to drive the amps, and 
(2) make sure your levels for all the gear in the signal chain are set correctly.

I see a troubling item in the EPQ’s spec sheet: The signal-to-noise specification is given as 100 dBA. As I outlined in Part 3 of the gain structure article, manufacturers often resort to an A-weighting spec if unweighted noise performance isn’t as good as it should be. The MX822’s spec is given as 95 dBu, which should be adequate (assuming it’s accurate– Behringer gives the same noise spec to the BFD, but it’s totally bogus for that one). So it’s possible that the “weak link” in your signal chain, from a noise perspective, is the amplifier. Your system will never be quieter than the weakest link in the signal chain, so it’s important to use quality gear with a low noise floor. Part 8 of the gain structure article outlines how to see if any outboard processors and amps you’re using are as quiet as your Marantz.

Again - reviewing and following the simple steps outlined in Parts 7 and 9 of the gain structure article will address your level-setting situation. If after a proper gain structure exercise you find that the Marantz still runs at higher volume settings than you think it should, then that’s just the way it is. All that really matters is that your amps never see clipping.

But I have to wonder, why are you even using the MX822 when the EPQ amps have RCA inputs? :mooooh:

Regards,
Wayne


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## rob92266 (Dec 16, 2011)

im using the mx882 becouse after reading so many posts i thought that this might solve the problem and give me more gain, i also tried hooking up my cd player directly to the mx882 and it works perfectly, the amp is only at about 1/4 gain, it just seems to me that the problem is in the reciever, what i have read about on the marantz sr7000 that the speaker levels are acctually the pre out levels and i have them adjusted all over the place to match all the speakers db level, i might just try setting the levels to +10 on all speakers and then adjusting the mx882 to match all levels, almost forgot, i am getting a very weak signal on the mx882 led's, they bairly come on unless i hook something up directly to the mx882


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

rob92266 said:


> ... the amp is only at about 1/4 gain, it just seems to me that the problem is in the receiver


That’s curious, because in this post you said you had the amp gains maxed out? If your amps are only at 1/4 gain, then you don’t need the MX822 for signal boosting. Even if the amps are set at max gain, as long as the Marantz can still drive the amps to clipping using the exercises outlined in the gain structure article, then you don’t have a problem. Everything is fine.




> im using the mx882 becouse after reading so many posts i thought that this might solve the problem and give me more gain...


If you have all six of the MX822’s gains set for zero (I think I saw that somewhere in one of these posts), then you’re passing the signal from the Marantz, at _exactly the same level is it’s coming out of the Marantz,_ straight through to amplifiers, unaltered. If you want “more gain,” you’ve got to move the MX822’s gain knobs to a positive (+) setting.




> ...almost forgot, i am getting a very weak signal on the mx882 led's, they bairly come on unless i hook something up directly to the mx882


As noted in my previous post, home theater equipment has a much lower signal level than pro gear does. Since the MX822 is a pro-audio piece, not a home-audio piece, it is designed to accept much higher signal levels than the Marantz will deliver. You will always have low meter levels on a piece of pro audio gear when it has a home audio front end delivering its input. That’s just the way it is, and it’s not a problem.

The reason you get a higher meter reading on the MX822 when you connect a CD player directly to it is because the CD player is putting out a full-level signal, with no attenuation. If you plug the CD player into the Marantz, then turn your Marantz all the way up (i.e. no attenuation), you should get the MX822 meters kicking as high as you get with the CD player plugged directly into the MX822, if not higher.

Regards,
Wayne


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## rob92266 (Dec 16, 2011)

well that makes sense with the led's, now in the situation with the mx882, shouldnt i get the same signal respnse when using the mx882 and all balanced connections? i guess im stuck with what i have, not complaining, just thought it would be much louder, i guess the only other possible solution would be to get a mixer wit at least 8 inputs and the go to the mx882 then to the amps, the only thing i would lose then would be the function of the remote control


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## rob92266 (Dec 16, 2011)

ok this is what i found out, i dont have a multimeter so i couldnt do step 7 but i tried step 9, diconnected the fronts, set avr fronts to max, lowered the amps and ran a signal through it, ended up with the front amp gaines maxed out and still didnt clip, 3 lights out of 4 which is "0" and the next light is limit, so if i am right, everything is fine, am i correct in saying this?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

rob92266 said:


> shouldnt i get the same signal respnse when using the mx882 and all balanced connections


If by “signal response” you mean “signal levels,” balanced or unbalanced has nothing to do with signal levels. IOW, if you’re asking if converting from unbalanced to unbalanced automatically boosts the signal levels, the answer is no.



rob92266 said:


> ok this is what i found out, i dont have a multimeter so i couldnt do step 7 but i tried step 9,


Are you talking about Parts 7 and 9 from the article, or Steps 7 and 9 from one of the PDF step-by-step guides I posted? If the latter, you’ll need to identify which one so we can get on the same page here.

If you tried to do the gain structure exercise from Part 9 without first doing the voltage test from Part 7, you have no way of knowing at which volume setting on your Marantz that it starts distorting. You really need to get a multimeter and make that determination. Otherwise all this is guess-work.

But – if you had the Marantz all the way up and you never got the amp to clip, then it probably doesn’t have enough output to drive the amps. The gain controls on the MX822 can help you out there – raise them until the amp clips, then back them down a bit until the amp is below clipping. This should be done with the 0dbFS pink noise test signal I provided – you are using it, right? Using any other signal, (again) this is all guess-work.

Regards,
Wayne


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