# First Receiver



## Jesot (Jan 21, 2013)

Looking for recommendations on a first receiver. I've been looking at a few Onkyo's (515, 609, 616 - ~$200-300 or so is my range on this piece), but don't really know what the important differences are or what should be most important to my situation. I posted in the Recommendations forum, but it seems like this might be a better spot to get some input.

I'm going to want a 5.1 system in a 12x13 room and be able to have outdoor audio in the backyard.

Inputs I'd like to have include a PS3, 360 (might move one of these to another spot in the house), and HTPC. Bluetooth would be sweet. WiFi would be nice for now, but not necessary long-term as my house will be wired in the near future.

Aside from what I've read over the last week or so, I'm very green when it comes to audio equipment. As much as I've dealt with electronics and computers over the years, I just don't have any experience with audio (aside from running cables for a HTIB for my sister and installing a car stereo - had no idea what I was doing, but it works).

Basically, I know I need at least a 7.1 receiver and that I'm finally going to have a really good excuse to tear up the lat & plaster in my old house.


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

Hi,

You are on the right track with what you've been looking at. 

But before I recommend anything, it would be important to know what speakers you plan to run. Do you have speakers yet? Speaker sensitivity and impedance will play a big role in the receiver recommendation you'll get.

Also, if you don't have speakers yet, I would start by shopping for that. It's THE most important part of your setup.

cheers


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The Onkyo 609 would be my choice with that budget. Its last years model so you will get more for your money.


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

Also check out your local Best Buy for in-store clearance or even "open box" items. 

They've actually made it pretty easy to do on their website so you don't necessarily need to wander around each local store.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> The Onkyo 609 would be my choice with that budget. Its last years model so you will get more for your money.


I am in agreement with Tony - again.


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## Jesot (Jan 21, 2013)

yoda13 said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are on the right track with what you've been looking at.
> 
> ...


I know nothing about speakers, so that's kind of the tough part. I didn't know anything about receivers, but I was able to narrow down the options by deciding what features I want. With speakers, I really just want something that's going to last. If I could get a 2.1 put together that can grow into my full home audio system for ~$500, I think I'd be happy.


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

Jesot said:


> I know nothing about speakers, so that's kind of the tough part. I didn't know anything about receivers, but I was able to narrow down the options by deciding what features I want. With speakers, I really just want something that's going to last. If I could get a 2.1 put together that can grow into my full home audio system for ~$500, I think I'd be happy.


Start with the format of speaker you want - tower (aka floorstanding)? bookshelf? tiny/mini/cube (like Bose size)?

Good value floorstanders are something like the Pioneer FS52. 

The bookshelf speakers from the same series (BS22) get good ratings as well. 

For tiny things its really open, since its tough to get really full sound from them. I was originally looking at Definitive ProMonitors but they are pretty expensive.

Once you figure out the size of speaker thats acceptable you can look around for just those first. There are loads of popular floorstanders out there, not quite as many bookshelf size but still plenty to choose from.

Regardless of avr choice Id look for speakers with at least 86 or 87db sensitivity. The higher the better, but you pay for that privilege. The higher the sensitivity the easier it would be to power them with less power, and the easier it will be on the amps in the avr. Higher sensitivity also yields "louder" at lower volume levels (i.e. wont have to turn it up too high for normal listening levels).

If you are willing to start with 2.1 then Id look at the best you could afford in whatever format you want. Just keep in mind that you might want to make it 5.1 someday so try to stick with a series that has corresponding surrounds, center channel, etc.


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## yoda13 (Feb 14, 2012)

+1 on the Pioneers, probably the best $ for $ out there right now. Infinity Primus series are also quite good and are very well price.


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## Jesot (Jan 21, 2013)

So would the bookshelf pair for $130 be a great bargain, then? Floor speakers seem great, but might start pushing it on the near-future price range. Would I be able to pick up the book shelf speakers and then move them to the back down the road? Not sure how that works.

And that gets me on to subwoofers.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Jesot said:


> So would the bookshelf pair for $130 be a great bargain, then? Floor speakers seem great, but might start pushing it on the near-future price range. Would I be able to pick up the book shelf speakers and then move them to the back down the road? Not sure how that works.
> 
> And that gets me on to subwoofers.


Going gently used is probably your bang for the buck, last years high end at bargain prices. 

Honestly, those Andrew Jones designed Pioneer speakers are okay. _They are the best in their price class; but not the best in the world._ 

Personally, I would seek out a used set of Paradigm Mini-Monitors, the Matching CC-370 center (must be the same version as left+right), and ADP-370 surrounds. Make certain you get Paradigm Monitor version 3 or 4 and avoid getting the Mini-Monitor version 5+, all speakers must be of the same version or it wont sound even. With those Paradigm speakers, a subwoofer isn't really necessary which should really help stretch the budget a great deal; especially considering you wont need more than 80-90 watts per channel to drive them. 




Jesot said:


> Looking for recommendations on a first receiver. I've been looking at a few Onkyo's (515, 609, 616 - ~$200-300 or so is my range on this piece), but don't really know what the important differences are or what should be most important to my situation. I posted in the Recommendations forum, but it seems like this might be a better spot to get some input.
> 
> *I'm going to want a 5.1 system in a 12x13 room and be able to have outdoor audio in the backyard.*
> 
> ...



If you are going to run outdoor speakers, you don't want to use the 6&7th channels to do so. What you want or need is a 5.1 receiver with "zone 2" capabilities or better yet, wireless speakers; like my old Advent (aka Optimus & Recoton) 900Mhz wireless. As far as "being green" :island: is concerned, you have to spend green to be to be green. Pioneer's Elite SC- (model line)* is about as energy efficient as they get but they don't come cheap. With a budget of less than $700, being green will have to go by the wayside. 

As far as the budget reciever choice goes; the Onkyo 609 or if you can find it cheap, the 616 are going to be your best bargains. Alternatives I would consider to the Onkyo might include the Harman-Kardon AVR 700 or the AVR-1700, which features DLNA for media streaming. And don't spend too much money on cabling, Belden speaker wire and Steren Python interconnects are about as good as the vast majority of monster cables for a fraction of the cost. 




*Not to be confused with Pioneer Elite VSX- (model number), which are typically full analog A or AB amp lifers which do run warm.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

I have auditioned the Paradigm Mini Monitors, and can attest that they are fine speakers. They are flat down to 75 Hz. As 8086 says, you almost don't need a sub with them.

Here's my two cents worth: for me, the 75 Hz cutoff is right in the range where, for music, if you run them without a sub you think they are fine, but if you try them with a sub, you won't want to go back. And here is an outlandish notion, especially at HTS where serious theater people are big on powerful subs -- the amount of sub you would need to add to a pair of Paradigm Minis to fill out down to 30 Hz is not that big, a modest sub would do it. The problem then is your upgrade path is not great for home theater, down the road you would want to trade up for a bigger sub, but there is always Craigslist or eBay.

I almost snagged a nice pair of used Minis at about half of retail on eBay a few months back, but someone did a "Buy Now" before I could get to them. There are good deals on used speakers out there if you keep your eyes open. Both my son and son-in-law are running used speakers, Polk and Klipsch, both off Craigslist, great deals, well-cared-for speakers that sound super.:bigsmile:


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## chrisexv6 (Jan 21, 2013)

AudiocRaver said:


> I have auditioned the Paradigm Mini Monitors, and can attest that they are fine speakers. They are flat down to 75 Hz. As 8086 says, you almost don't need a sub with them.
> 
> Here's my two cents worth: for me, the 75 Hz cutoff is right in the range where, for music, if you run them without a sub you think they are fine, but if you try them with a sub, you won't want to go back. And here is an outlandish notion, especially at HTS where serious theater people are big on powerful subs -- the amount of sub you would need to add to a pair of Paradigm Minis to fill out down to 30 Hz is not that big, a modest sub would do it. The problem then is your upgrade path is not great for home theater, down the road you would want to trade up for a bigger sub, but there is always Craigslist or eBay.
> 
> I almost snagged a nice pair of used Minis at about half of retail on eBay a few months back, but someone did a "Buy Now" before I could get to them. There are good deals on used speakers out there if you keep your eyes open. Both my son and son-in-law are running used speakers, Polk and Klipsch, both off Craigslist, great deals, well-cared-for speakers that sound super.:bigsmile:


Mind if i ask which version? I think they are up to 7 but what would be the oldest version you would suggest if buying used?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Im not really sure why a statement that a speaker that is flat to 75Hz would not need a sub? most music goes down to 35Hz and thats a big gap between 75 and 30 of missing frequencies. Movies is even a bigger gap given you have information down to below 15Hz.
A speaker thats only rated down to even 60Hz really needs a sub to help or you will be over driving it into distortion trying to get it to reproduce those lower frequencies..


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

chrisexv6 said:


> Mind if i ask which version? I think they are up to 7 but what would be the oldest version you would suggest if buying used?


Version 3, but preferrably version 4. Both have the improved tweeter and awesome mid-bass woofer. V4's tweeter is better than v3. I had a Paradigm PDR-12 Subwoofer, sold it, and don't miss it.


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## Jesot (Jan 21, 2013)

8086 said:


> Version 3, but preferrably version 4. Both have the improved tweeter and awesome mid-bass woofer. V4's tweeter is better than v3. I had a Paradigm PDR-12 Subwoofer, sold it, and don't miss it.


Is this a good deal?


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Jesot said:


> Is this a good deal?


No, not at all. *Those aren't even from their Monitor Line*. Those are early 1990s speakers, that I do remember from back in the day and have sold for under $30 all week long on ebay. 


Paradigm sold tens of thousands of Mini-Monitors, so It shouldn't take too long. Version 4 is the one to get, but they also have a lot more people looking for them; so the price is much greater (sometimes 2x) than version 3. Alternatively, you could bid on the Monitor 5 (v.4) instead of the Mini-Monitor and it will broaden your chances of getting the version you want. 

If you don't see Version 3 now, just keep waiting for a pair to list. If you don't already have an account, create one. Then add this search to your favorite searches.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

chrisexv6 said:


> Mind if i ask which version? I think they are up to 7 but what would be the oldest version you would suggest if buying used?


The new ones that I listened to were series 7. The used ones I was looking at were series 3, a bit oldish, but according to the seller had only been used for a few weeks and then sat in a closet for years, practically new in terms of actual use. I was not aware of the specific improvements, or at which generations they were made, as stated by other posters, that is definitely good info to consider.



tonyvdb said:


> Im not really sure why a statement that a speaker that is flat to 75Hz would not need a sub? most music goes down to 35Hz and thats a big gap between 75 and 30 of missing frequencies. Movies is even a bigger gap given you have information down to below 15Hz.
> A speaker thats only rated down to even 60Hz really needs a sub to help or you will be over driving it into distortion trying to get it to reproduce those lower frequencies..


Good points. Bass guitar/double bass goes down to 41 Hz, piano down to 28 Hz, pipe organ even lower, a good kick drum thump can have information in the 40 Hz to 60 Hz range, there is good music down there.

I was not trying to state a rule, just saying that from experience, having spent some time working with smaller speakers, that a cut off at around 70 to 80 Hz seems to be the borderline where you can get away without a sub _if you have to,_ and not miss it _terribly_ (with music, not home theater). The brain does a remarkable job of hearing the overtones of a note with a weak fundamental and providing the illusion that the fundamental is there, too, so a lot of those lower notes seem to sound deep even though the fundamental frequency itself is weak. Not saying this is ideal, just that on a budget it is not that bad. Given the option to add a sub to that speaker, I would definitely do so, you can certainly tell the difference.

With speakers that cut off at 100 Hz, the bass is getting very weak, quite unsatisfactory. I have a pair of old Polk bookshelf speakers that is very flat to 50 Hz, I have run them with and without sub, the sub does very little. Right now they are without sub, and I never feel like I am missing anything with them.

It is all a matter of degree. As you say, given the option of good response down to 30 Hz, always take it. On a budget, listening primarily to music, you can go higher, but 70 to 80 Hz is where I would say "ya gotta have a sub!":sn:


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

AudiocRaver said:


> The new ones that I listened to were series 7. The used ones I was looking at were series 3, a bit oldish, but according to the seller had only been used for a few weeks and then sat in a closet for years, practically new in terms of actual use. I was not aware of the specific improvements, or at which generations they were made, as stated by other posters, that is definitely good info to consider.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To get a good "musical" subwoofer will cost you a minimum of a grand or two which is more than his system as a whole would be worth. Most subwoofer under a grand tend to be boomy, thuddy, muddy: atttributes which are not attractive in any subwoofer, no less one which is trying to reproduce delicate musical tones.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

8086 said:


> To get a good "musical" subwoofer will cost you a minimum of a grand or two which is more than his system as a whole would be worth. Most subwoofer under a grand tend to be boomy, thuddy, muddy: atttributes which are not attractive in any subwoofer, no less one which is trying to reproduce delicate musical tones.


A sub capable of handling both music and movies can be had for less than $1,000.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

JBrax said:


> A sub capable of handling both music and movies can be had for less than $1,000.


While the statement is somewhat subjective, a used musical sub could possibly be had for under a grand. My PW-2200 cost just shy of a grand, brand new; it is fairly musical and fantastic with movies. One of the nicest subs for music and movies that I've heard is a Paradigm Signature Servo (v2?):hsd: which cost around $5k new. I have yet to hear the new Sub15, which from what I have read, is much better than the servo it replaced.

I have also over the years seen :newspaper: countless rave reviews for HSU, but I have not heard one in person. I do know they put out a lot of volume and they are affordable, but I don't know if they are very musical.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Both HSU and SVS offer subs under $1,000 that are more than capable of handling both. There are others out there such as Outlaw and Rythmik that I know get high praise also. You can get a lot for your money by going Internet Direct. We're going a bit off topic on this thread but I wanted to point out to the OP that a good sub could be had for under $1,000.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

We have indeed gotten a little off topic, thank you very much for the reminder, and I admit to having contributed my share to that.

Perhaps it is time we get back to focusing on the First Receiver discussion. These other worthy discussions can always be continued in appropriate HTS forums/threads elsewhere. Thanks to all for your contributions.:T


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

The minimum level of acceptable musicality is subjective from listener to listener.


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## Jesot (Jan 21, 2013)

Hmmm... How can I tell what version of the speakers I'm looking at if the seller doesn't specifically say (or if the seller is saying the incorrect version)?

I'd mostly be using the speakers inside for movies and games, if that matters.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Jesot said:


> Hmmm... How can I tell what version of the speakers I'm looking at if the seller doesn't specifically say (or if the seller is saying the incorrect version)?
> 
> I'd mostly be using the speakers inside for movies and games, if that matters.


The trained eye :yikes: can tell by looking at the front of the speaker. The untrained novice can tell by looking at the label on the rear. versions 2 through present have a v.X (x = number). Version one just has the model number with no version number printed on the label.


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## Jesot (Jan 21, 2013)

8086 said:


> The trained eye :yikes: can tell by looking at the front of the speaker. The untrained novice can tell by looking at the label on the rear. versions 2 through present have a v.X (x = number). Version one just has the model number with no version number printed on the label.


That's been my problem, then! All of them that I've seen have been v1.

Thanks.


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## 8086 (Aug 4, 2009)

Jesot said:


> That's been my problem, then! All of them that I've seen have been v1.
> 
> Thanks.


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