# Speaker Wires, Does it matter?



## devicente (Jun 28, 2007)

The basic understanding that I currently have is for longer runs you want to use heavier gages. Now I have come across many different types of cable, from .25 cents a foot to $50.00+ a foot. What gives, What would a person need with solid "Silver" cable. Sure I understand it has better conductivity than copper, but does it really make a difference?

Just want to open for disscussion.

Steve :dizzy:


----------



## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

*Re: Speak Wires, Does it matter?*

There's a lot of discussions about it....in my case, I use the cheap wire but the correct gauge (at least 14, even if is for short runs) :yes:

I think is better to use the savings in other components :innocent:


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: Speak Wires, Does it matter?*

You will not audibly hear a difference using any of the over priced speaker wire. Go to your local home Depot and buy a spool of 14awg speaker wire and walk away knowing your did not get scammed by Monster or any of the other high priced junk.


----------



## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

*Re: Speak Wires, Does it matter?*



devicente said:


> The basic understanding that I currently have is for longer runs you want to use heavier gages. but does it really make a difference?
> Steve :dizzy:


Your basic understanding is correct. It DOES make a difference but in my experience, the ONLY difference is volume. If you have a run of 1000 feet (extreme case) the result will be less volume with the thinner wire. I've never detected any high frequency drop off, difference in sound stage, attack, presence, low frequency punch, etc etc. etc.


----------



## bhjazz (May 13, 2009)

*Re: Speak Wires, Does it matter?*

There's too much at stake to just ignore it! I also think it will depend a lot on your equipment. Find a local audio dealer who will lend you one or two runs of speaker wire over a weekend. You'll be surprised!


----------



## ISLAND1000 (May 2, 2007)

*Re: Speak Wires, Does it matter?*



bhjazz said:


> There's too much at stake to just ignore it! I also think it will depend a lot on your equipment. Find a local audio dealer who will lend you one or two runs of speaker wire over a weekend. You'll be surprised!


Uh . . . . . nah . . . . . forget the audio dealer, don't waste your time, get over to Home Depot or even Radio Shack and buy the least expensive but heavier gauge wire and be done with it.
This issue has been beaten to death over the years and there are STILL some people who insist they can detect a subtle difference in the quality of sound. The truth is, those are the people with a waxy build-up on their tympanic membranes and they've NEVER even had a full spectrum audiology test done by a certified ENT specialist.


----------



## hddummy (Mar 9, 2007)

*Re: Speak Wires, Does it matter?*

This generally what I go by.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm


----------



## bhjazz (May 13, 2009)

*Re: Speak Wires, Does it matter?*



ISLAND1000 said:


> The truth is, those are the people with a waxy build-up on their tympanic membranes and they've NEVER even had a full spectrum audiology test done by a certified ENT specialist.


Thanks for the compliment. Much appreciated. 

Your fear that the original poster might hear a difference is typical. I see nothing wrong with this person using _their own ears_ to determine if it is possible or not. If you can't hear anything, that's fine. If he can, or I can, why not let these people be?


----------



## Mike P. (Apr 6, 2007)

*Re: Speak Wires, Does it matter?*



> I see nothing wrong with this person using their own ears to determine if it is possible or not.


Agreed. To each his own.


----------



## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

*Re: Speak Wires, Does it matter?*



bhjazz said:


> Your fear that the original poster might hear a difference is typical. I see nothing wrong with this person using _their own ears_ to determine if it is possible or not. If you can't hear anything, that's fine. If he can, or I can, why not let these people be?


I don't think is fear...He's not going to loose or gain anything if the original poster hear any difference.

We're here to help each other and share experiences, and most people agree that the difference between cheap and over-priced wires is not audible, our mission is to help others to SAVE MONEY, but like you say: he's free to do what he thinks is best for him....:T


----------



## the_rookie (Sep 30, 2008)

Wire is wire, but I think something to look for in a wire manufacture is consistancy, quality, and price.

Yes electricity doesnt know cheap from expensive wire, but if its cheaply made with inconsistent gaps or something in the strands the speaker will tell you the difference in sound. If you buy speaker wire that seems to be a little different here and there when it comes to the spool itself, the way the wire looks, the density throughout the wire, etc. maybe dont recommend it, or buy it again. For if something small as that is inconsistent, think of the strands of wire, and how there may be gaps and voids, and maybe other objects in there increasing the resistance.


----------



## reed.hannebaum (Apr 21, 2006)

I personally use 12 AWG. In the past I have bought from Parts Express; BUT, the last roll of wire I received from them was of thinner gauge even though it was marked as 12 AWG. I compared their new wire with some wire left over wire from a previous purchase and it was definitely thinner. I made a complaint about it but nothing ever happened. 

So as a word of advice, compare wire before buying a large quantity; and I don't mean the insulating jacket. Buy small quantities from various sources and look at the actual wire size. Now it may not make a great diffeence if you buy 12 AWG and the wire size is actually 14 AWG, but you should get what you pay for.


----------



## hddummy (Mar 9, 2007)

I believe that a wire is rated by the total cross sectional area of all it's strands. If one wire of the same gauge uses 10 strands and another uses 20 strands, the one with 20 strands will result in a smaller overall diameter. The smaller individual strands pack together tighter and there is less wasted space between strands. This could account for the reason two wires were rated the same but different diameter.


----------



## bhjazz (May 13, 2009)

the_rookie said:


> Yes electricity doesnt know cheap from expensive wire, but if its cheaply made with inconsistent gaps or something in the strands the speaker will tell you the difference in sound.


That's my point. If the material is cheap, it will suffer when playing music. Maybe that's just me. 
Cables in general need to balance many factors in transmitting a simple signal from one component to another. These include resistance, capacitance, inductance, RF radiation, phase distortion, hysterisis, and probably a hundred other. I've built many DIY cables, with the last set being a balanced pair. They sound good, but the somehow don't approach the commercial stuff on my system. I'm sure some will say :spend: but it works for me.


----------



## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

Well, there you go. Different opinions, no definitive information. Is there a substantial difference in price among vendors? Definitely. In performance? You will have to decide. 

So, if you have time to spare, you might do as Jazz stated, give it a try, just don't be taken advantage of by a sales gimmick because we all know they're out there, in every group of products.


----------



## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

Well, finally a good cable discussion on HTS! 

The fact is that no properly conducted blind test has revealed any significant positive result about audible difference in cables. Most if not all participants in the same tests can clearly hear a difference when they know there is one. Placebo is a powerful tool for esotheric cable companies...

I know I can hear a difference when I know cables have changed. I suspected placebo, and conducted a blind test with a few mates. No difference. This led me to do another blind test on power amplifiers. I have my Denon AVR 4308 receiver hooked up to my Dali Euphonia speakers. I used to have a NAD M25 power amp in between, but after being unable to tell if it was hooked up or not, I sold it and bought a 1080p projector and larger screen. Best investment I ever did.

Good enough is good enough...


----------



## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

I agree Maverick,
Unless your willing to do a randomised double blind test and document your results then you aren't being honest with yourself, or others. 
Bias/Placebo Effect cannot be ruled out without such testing.


----------



## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

Yep. We did a fairly extensive ABX test. One guy switched, one guy recorded, three guys listened. We had two different cables, one Tara Labs Air 1 set ($4200), and one cheap QED cable of equal length (2x3m). Cables were switched every time, even if the same cable was put back. We used banana connectors for both ends for fast switching (the TL comes with screw-on terminals so you can choose banana or spades. We used the supplied bananaplugs.).

I don't have the actual spreadsheet here, but I think the 'best' result was 67% correct, well in the 'random result' bracket.


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

*Re: Speak Wires, Does it matter?*



ISLAND1000 said:


> Uh . . . . . nah . . . . . forget the audio dealer, don't waste your time, get over to Home Depot or even Radio Shack and buy the least expensive but heavier gauge wire and be done with it.
> This issue has been beaten to death over the years and there are STILL some people who insist they can detect a subtle difference in the quality of sound. The truth is, those are the people with a waxy build-up on their tympanic membranes and they've NEVER even had a full spectrum audiology test done by a certified ENT specialist.


The matter has been beaten to death because people continue to make posts like this one. The first sentence is your opinion, and in my view, is largely correct. Next however, your comments do nothing to enhance nor inform the discussion. The fact that many people have never had an audiological eval has nothing at all to do with the matter, nor does whether they might have wax in their ears. This is at best a vieled insult of those who might have a different experience than you.

While it is clear that there is very little, if any difference in most speaker wires audible performance, the matter is far from settled regarding what characteristics of a cable affect the sound, and how they might do so. Even the most ardent "anti" would not argue that wires do not have to be of some minimal diameter and quality of construction for significant lengths. The failure of the audio community, IMO, is that a systematic and scientific study of what parameters affect sound in what manner has never been performed. Further, how these effects interact with expectation bias and placebo effects has had little study. Human perception is complex and there are subtle aspects of both ability and psychoacoustics that have not been studied in a systematic manner. The arrogance and condescention of the anti-cable side combined with the emotionally dominated responses from the other side have often made for pointless blather instead of intelligent discussion. Posts like the one above will do nothing but propogate that, and IMO, HTS is not the place for it.

There is good reason to respect the choice of some to invest in cables that they feel improve the sound of their system. There is better reason to investigate why they feel that they experience a difference and understand where actual differences give way to psychological effect. To argue that one or the other is completely dominant or more relevant to individual experience is simply not recogizing the facts. Even if it is completely a matter of faith, both sides should be respectful and attempt to understand the other perspective. These matters have been debated for centuries at much more sophisticated levels. This "naive cables are all the same"/"I hear a big difference debate" deserves much more intelligent discussion than saying people have wax in their ears. If that is the best you can do, take it to Usenet or AVS, please. 

Nihil est in intellectu quod non fuerit in sensu...Locke


----------



## reed.hannebaum (Apr 21, 2006)

hddummy said:


> I believe that a wire is rated by the total cross sectional area of all it's strands. If one wire of the same gauge uses 10 strands and another uses 20 strands, the one with 20 strands will result in a smaller overall diameter. The smaller individual strands pack together tighter and there is less wasted space between strands. This could account for the reason two wires were rated the same but different diameter.


This is certainly true. In addition, wrapping geometry, and how tightly the strands are wrapped can make a difference. Though significant, these factors will have only a small to moderate effect on the overall wire diameter. In all cases, a stranded wire should be of greater diameter than an equivalent guage solid wire due to the inherent air gaps.

The kind of diameter difference I am talking about is illustrated in the picture below (curtsey Roger Russell):










Unscrupulous wire manufacturers can make a wire look to be of a heavy gauge when in fact it is only the insulation that is heavy, not the actual wire.


----------



## AZ Theatre (Apr 4, 2009)

well said...

Unfortunately there are manufacturers who wrap smaller diameter wire in larger casings than sell it as the larger wire.

Quiet a shock when you strip a 1/0 wire only to find it is the size of a #4 wire...


----------



## bhjazz (May 13, 2009)

*Re: Speak Wires, Does it matter?*



lcaillo said:


> Human perception is complex and there are subtle aspects of both ability and psychoacoustics that have not been studied in a systematic manner.


So much to chew on there. Nice post. I'll distill my reply to the quote above...!

We're all wired differently. We all hear differently. We've all had different emotional responses to music and movies. The ways these are perceived and processed in the brain cannot be duplicated from one person to another. Read Musicophilia by Oliver Sacks if you want a documented batch of stories about people who are truly wired for music in one way or another. I think that beyond pulse response, frequency response, and all the measurable stuff is definitely something that cannot be measured. For my own system, cables are not the end-all, but provide some mild tuning. Nothing beats synergy of well-matched components, but connecting them with *wire* that doesn't enhance them seems counterintuitive. If you want to, please do. YOUR system only has to sound good to YOU.


----------



## Raymond Leggs (Aug 23, 2008)

Only guage matters, but be careful of some unknown brand wires they turn green. 

I once bough a big spool of speaker wire from a thrift store, I cut it and hooked it up to the stereo and the next day it was green. :hissyfit:


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Raymond Leggs said:


> Only guage matters, but be careful of some unknown brand wires they turn green.
> 
> I once bough a big spool of speaker wire from a thrift store, I cut it and hooked it up to the stereo and the next day it was green. :hissyfit:



If "only guage matters" why is green a problem? Green is a nice color, and with that clear dielectric, I think it is pretty cool.

More than gauge does matter. Companies like MIT have made a lot of money on the fact that more matters. Whether their kind of tinkering with the parameters affecting signal transfer is worthwhile is another matter for one to consider. You won't find any of their cables in my system, but you won't see me argue that they don't affect the sound, either. The degree to which it is desirable, practical, or cost effective to consider other factors besides size is what is debatable. For me, it is not a high priority. For others it is so. I would like to see more discussion and testing regarding exactly how various parameters, including size, affect the sound. IME, it is likely that other parameters may have a greater effect on sound quality than gauge for typical lengths used for speakers. Those differences may or many not be desirable, however.



bhjazz,

I agree, to a point. There is certainly much that we don't know that we don't know. My issue with most obectivists is that they make assumptions about the completeness of our understanding. My problem with subectivists is that they make assumptions about the validity of their own perception and how it relates to reality and to the perception of others. Both sides are right in their proper context, to a degree, and when they meet and get into the pointless debates and slinging one-liners, both are wrong beyond the limited scope of their perspective. You have to frame these debates carefully or they get out of control. Context is VERY important. The thing to remember is that as long as we are careful about the context of our comments, provide a basis for statements of fact, and identify clearly and respect statements of opinion, we can have a civil discussion that informs and perhaps even advances knowledge on the matter. What we can do as moderators is steer the debate in the right direction, away from polarizing posts and insults and toward getting to better understanding.


I may be a little snake-bit by participation on other forums, so forgive me if my tolerance for "it is/it isn't" debates gets a little weak. We just do not need that here. We can do much better. We are at the same time able to have advertising from companies like Transparent and Neptune, while having extensive discussions about using Monoprice and Behrenger. We recognize that different people have different priorities and perceptions. I like it that way and that is what makes HTS a safe place to post and discuss one's ideas. The bottom line is that there are a range of equally valid and useful perspectives. Or, as it has been said better in the past..."the crux of the buiscuit is the apostrophe." 

Informed debate is great. Polarizing and insulting commentary is pointless and harmful.


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

*Re: "Tinning"-To Tin or Not to Tin...that is the question!!*

Hello. What is "Tinning" and how does it have any effect on the quality of sound from the speaker wire to the speaker and how do you do it? Is it something recommended for general use? I have Atlantic Technologies speaker (4200e) and I was questioning the manufacturer about banana plugs for their speakers and they only recommended tinning the ends going to the speakers. Being a novice at this, what would you recommend (tinning or not) and how to do this? Is this something that someone never to use a solder iron would be able to do *"CORRECTLY"*?


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

*Re: "Tinning"-To Tin or Not to Tin...that is the question!!*



perritterd said:


> Is this something that someone never to use a solder iron would be able to do *"CORRECTLY"*?


Tinning is simply soldering the ends of the speaker wire using a solder iron, some flux to clean and ensure a good coverage of the solder and a steady hand for about 20seconds with a 35watt solder iron. Apply just enough heat to the bare copper to cause the flux (solder paste) to evaporate and the solder that you feed onto the copper to melt making nice clean coverage without putting too much to make a blob.


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

*Re: "Tinning"-To Tin or Not to Tin...that is the question!!*



tonyvdb said:


> Tinning is simply soldering the ends of the speaker wire using a solder iron, some flux to clean and ensure a good coverage of the solder and a steady hand for about 20seconds with a 35watt solder iron. Apply just enough heat to the bare copper to cause the flux (solder paste) to evaporate and the solder that you feed onto the copper to melt making nice clean coverage without putting too much to make a blob.


tonyvdb, you made it sound so "simple"...I doubt that it is :innocent:, but , nevertheless, I am willing to try. How would you recommend someone like me (no experience) do this, and what do I need to make this happen? I don't need expensive equipment or anything like that...just something that gets the job done (any recommendations?).

Thanks for the help!
Bob


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

No problem Bob, all you need is the iron usually found at your local radio shack or even better a good electronics parts store for around $30 and the flux and solder is only a few bucks each. A solder iron made by Weller is my personal recommendation.
For starters just cut a small length of speaker wire and do some practice runs before tackling the one you want to do it on. And remeber not to make the wire too hot as to melt the plastic sheathing on the rest of the wire.


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> No problem Bob, all you need is the iron usually found at your local radio shack or even better a good electronics parts store for around $30 and the flux and solder is only a few bucks each. A solder iron made by Weller is my personal recommendation.
> For starters just cut a small length of speaker wire and do some practice runs before tackling the one you want to do it on. And remeber not to make the wire too hot as to melt the plastic sheathing on the rest of the wire.


tonyvdb, thank you for that explanation. How long or large of a solder point should I make? I know this must seem completely ridiculous to you, but, I am more than willing to try and make my system the best I can (for "NO MONEY") :sn:, or very little! Is tinning something that you would recommend I do or just let things be as they are and not tin?

Thanks, 
Bob.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

perritterd said:


> t How long or large of a solder point should I make?


I dont think more than about one inch of wire needs to be done. Remember it still needs to fit thorough the hole of the binding post.
Tinning is one of many ways to get a good connection but I personally like locking banana plugs, Tinning is a good inexpensive way to go.


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> I dont think more than about one inch of wire needs to be done. Remember it still needs to fit thorough the hole of the binding post.
> Tinning is one of many ways to get a good connection but I personally like locking banana plugs, Tinning is a good inexpensive way to go.


tony, thank you. But, what do you mean by "locking banana plugs"? Is this different form the "Nakamichi Banana Plugs" that I just ordered and have sitting in my desk drawer? My speakers don't seem to be able to take anything but bare, or tinned, wire. How would I fit your locking banana plugs in my Atlantic Technology speaker terminals?


----------



## Carlsor (May 13, 2010)

I have DIY speaker cables which I made from CAT-6 Ethernet cable. I used to have Kimber 8TC cable which is about $15/ft and was highly regarded a few years ago. My CAT-6 speaker cables were a huge improvement over the Kimber cables. The sound is more musical, detailed, and relaxed.
Take 3 CAT-6 cables and braid them together. Strip off the ends of each twisted pair wire. Twist the 12 colored wires together for the positive and combine the 12 white wires for the negative. I have used WBT banana plugs and various other cheaper banana plugs with excellent results. The cables need to be burned in with 300+ hours of music to sound their best.


----------



## perritterd (Mar 11, 2010)

reed.hannebaum said:


> This is certainly true. In addition, wrapping geometry, and how tightly the strands are wrapped can make a difference. Though significant, these factors will have only a small to moderate effect on the overall wire diameter. In all cases, a stranded wire should be of greater diameter than an equivalent guage solid wire due to the inherent air gaps.
> 
> The kind of diameter difference I am talking about is illustrated in the picture below (curtsey Roger Russell):
> 
> ...


Reed, I've looked at the pics you fwd. and I have a quick question. I cut back the insulation like your pics showed and then twist the wire strands together. I then fold the twisted strands over about midpoint on the bare wire. I do this because I believe that by getting a larger diameter wire into my speaker terminal, It makes for a better contact point between my wire and the terminal. I do not know if this is correct reasoning or not and am just wondering if you or anyone else would have an opinion about this practice I am doing. I realize that buying larger wire may be the answer, unfortunately, I am in the "Job" hunting mode right now and not willing to put out more money for wire at this time.

Thanks for any assistance.
Bob.


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Carlsor said:


> I have DIY speaker cables which I made from CAT-6 Ethernet cable. I used to have Kimber 8TC cable which is about $15/ft and was highly regarded a few years ago. My CAT-6 speaker cables were a huge improvement over the Kimber cables. The sound is more musical, detailed, and relaxed.
> Take 3 CAT-6 cables and braid them together. Strip off the ends of each twisted pair wire. Twist the 12 colored wires together for the positive and combine the 12 white wires for the negative. I have used WBT banana plugs and various other cheaper banana plugs with excellent results. The cables need to be burned in with 300+ hours of music to sound their best.


Do you have any measurements by chance? I'd be interested in seeing the F-R curves I think measurement by F-R is probably are best bet to understanding the differences in wire. Audibility perception is best left to a separate test. Which Floyd E. Toole actually has conducted. In certain types of music it doesn't take much of a difference to be noticeable. 

I'm of the belief that we should start measuring with the mic first.


----------



## atledreier (Mar 2, 2007)

I've done measurements with pretty cheap common wire, and compared with high-end speaker wire (Tara Labs Air2). Switching the wires showed no difference, moving the microphone a few mm quelded significant change in frequency response.... I'll dig up the measurements if anyone is interested.


----------



## reed.hannebaum (Apr 21, 2006)

perritterd said:


> Reed, I've looked at the pics you fwd. and I have a quick question. I cut back the insulation like your pics showed and then twist the wire strands together. I then fold the twisted strands over about midpoint on the bare wire. I do this because I believe that by getting a larger diameter wire into my speaker terminal, It makes for a better contact point between my wire and the terminal. I do not know if this is correct reasoning or not and am just wondering if you or anyone else would have an opinion about this practice I am doing. I realize that buying larger wire may be the answer, unfortunately, I am in the "Job" hunting mode right now and not willing to put out more money for wire at this time.
> 
> Thanks for any assistance.
> Bob.


Bob, I wish you well on your job hunting. 
Your practice of doubling over the bare wire is not a bad idea. In order to maximize the amplifier's control over the speaker voice coil, you want to minimize the impedance between the amplifier and the speaker. This effectively increases the damping ratio which is a good thing to do. Everything interconnection (amp binding post to speaker wire, speaker wire to speaker binding post, etc) between your amplifier and speaker is a point of resistance which you want to minimize. Increasing the contact surface area of the interconnection will help minimize that resistance.


----------



## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

reed.hannebaum said:


> Bob, I wish you well on your job hunting.
> Your practice of doubling over the bare wire is not a bad idea. In order to maximize the amplifier's control over the speaker voice coil, you want to minimize the impedance between the amplifier and the speaker. This effectively increases the damping ratio which is a good thing to do. Everything interconnection (amp binding post to speaker wire, speaker wire to speaker binding post, etc) between your amplifier and speaker is a point of resistance which you want to minimize. Increasing the contact surface area of the interconnection will help minimize that resistance.


I have a few questions regarding your post to facilitate more understanding. 

What is Damping Ratio?

Why is the damping ratio important? 

Can you show a graph that correlates improved response with increased damping? 

Why do you say lower impedance loads are easier to drive when the conventional view says they are harder to drive?

Would the increased cost of speaker wire be more effectively use on room treatments?


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

lsiberian said:


> I have a few questions regarding your post to facilitate more understanding.
> 
> What is Damping Ratio?
> 
> ...


I think a few things are getting mixed up here. I suspect he is thinking of Damping Factor, which is the ability of the amp to damp back EMF from the drivers. This is generally better in amps with lower output impedance. It is like braking a motor with a short.

I think he was also talking about reducing impedance in the wires, not in the load. You can affect frequency response with capacitance and inductance in the wires, and resistance causes losses overall. The Kimber wires, for instance (IIRC), have low inductance but higher capacitance than most, leading to a bit of a high frequency roll-off. A twisted pair like you would have in Cat5 ethernet cable would reduce the inductance as well. Most of this has so little effect at the distances and frequencies that we are talking about that it makes a small difference at best. 

I agree, room treatments, or even just moving the listening position or speaker location a small amount will make far more difference in most cases.


----------



## reed.hannebaum (Apr 21, 2006)

lcaillo said:


> I think a few things are getting mixed up here. I suspect he is thinking of Damping Factor, which is the ability of the amp to damp back EMF from the drivers. This is generally better in amps with lower output impedance. It is like braking a motor with a short.
> 
> I think he was also talking about reducing impedance in the wires, not in the load. You can affect frequency response with capacitance and inductance in the wires, and resistance causes losses overall. The Kimber wires, for instance (IIRC), have low inductance but higher capacitance than most, leading to a bit of a high frequency roll-off. A twisted pair like you would have in Cat5 ethernet cable would reduce the inductance as well. Most of this has so little effect at the distances and frequencies that we are talking about that it makes a small difference at best.
> 
> I agree, room treatments, or even just moving the listening position or speaker location a small amount will make far more difference in most cases.


Yes, Damping Factor is the correct term. However, the Damping Factor is a ratio of the speaker resistance to the source resistance. You are also correct in assuming I was talking about lowering the impedance in the wires and in particular the impendance in the interconnections between the amp and the speaker. I agree, that at the audio frequency range these things don't have a great impact, especially with amplifiers having bipolar outputs where the output impedance is very low as compared to Mosfet or transformer outputs.


----------



## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

Damping factor is measured with an 8Ω resistor right at the speaker terminals of the amp at a single frequency (usually 1k) so apart from it presenting a number that might hep market the amp, in real terms it's not much use. It also changes with frequency in most amps; SS is fairly even but increases at HF, and tube amps can vary quite a bit usually at each end of the spectrum. The design and implementation into circuit of the OPT will determine this.

With a SS amp with a published DF of 500, the Zout is 16mΩ. Add 3m of 14ga (6m loop distance) and you add another 49mΩ without contact resistance. Speakons are about 3mΩ so add another 12mΩ. Total = 77mΩ or DF = 104. A typical 8Ω driver has an Re of about 6Ω, so DF is realistically 78 a 6.4:1 difference from where we started. 

Add xovers, reactances in all components and non linear output Z of all amps, and DF is meaningless.

Most fig 8 twin has reasonably low L and C. Keep the R low by choosing suitable gauge and length and forget about it.


----------

