# TV for the family room



## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

Well our 26" Westinhouse just isn't cutting it anymore. The new family room is much larger than our old townhouse (viewing distance was 7' and is now 15'). We can't even read the menus or guide!

See picture for the "future" great room. Right now there is a wall between the table and the wood floored area. Couches are facing the fireplace and along the right wall (as you come in the paneled door there).

We are thinking of putting it either over the fireplace (15' viewing distance) or in the left corner there (19' viewing distance). Light is pretty well controlled and only morning sun (from the left) is a problem. No lights straight on.

We were looking at LCD or LED/LCD, but I've heard good things about Plasma now (no burn in problems, not as fragile, etc). With 3D coming out, we might look for a deal as people move inventory.

Any thoughts on brands or technologies?

Thanks,
Anthony


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

There are many options and in the end it depends on what you like. Plasma displays tend to cost less for the size but weigh a fair bit more than LCD. Many people like plasma because the blacks are better but that is only really noticeable if your room can be made very dark otherwise you wont see much if any difference. Burn in on Plasma is still an issue but not as much as it used to be. LCD uses quite a bit less power and generates less heat. Colors are very good with LCD/LED but some find it almost too good Plasma tends to look more natural. 

As far as manufacturers Personally I would go with Panasonic Sony or Toshiba as LG and Samsung seem to have allot more issues. even if you look at our own Displays Help & support section you will see many more issues with the later two mentioned.


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

I have been impressed with the Panasonic Viera plasma sets. We use Netflix and the family uses Skype, both of which are available on the TV. After several years of LCD sets (projector too), I miss my black levels 

Also, as the picture shows, once the wall is out we will want a TV we can see from the kitchen for family gatherings and such.

Any thoughts on the Panasonic Plasma black-level issue? I googled it and some think it's no big deal. Others think it makes Panny a huge rip-off.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Anthony said:


> Any thoughts on the Panasonic Plasma black-level issue? I googled it and some thing it's no big deal. Others think it makes Panny a huge rip-off.


I'm really not sure about it, I do not know if they really care if their sets do go out of spec with regards to black level and it does make me wonder if their new displays have the same issue. Thats one maybe Leonard would be able to answer better.


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

We're seriously thinking about the Viero 50". We just tried a furniture arrangement and I think we can keep the primary distance to about 10' and the edge seats at 15', so it fits the space (and the budget).

We're thinking the front corner, rather than over the fireplace (for wire, aesthetics reasons, etc). I'm thinking articulating mount to push flush to the wall, but leave at 45° most of the time.

We have a baby on the way, and the remote cam integration to the TV sold it to the wife (that and Netflix/Skype). I may have played the baby-cam up a bit


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## spartanstew (May 7, 2009)

Keep in mind that at 10' on a 50" display, you're not getting any benefit of 1080p and at 15' you're not even getting any benefit of HD. 

So, if you can find a cheap 720p display, that's probably your best option.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

spartanstew said:


> Keep in mind that at 10' on a 50" display, you're not getting any benefit of 1080p and at 15' you're not even getting any benefit of HD.
> 
> So, if you can find a cheap 720p display, that's probably your best option.


:scratch: Not completely true, 1080p gives you higher refresh rates meaning far less motion studder. If you have a PC near by it also gives you a super nice monitor to use if playing on line games or just serffing the web.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Something else to think about is over the fireplace, even at 15' distance is going to be a little uncomfortable after sitting through a 90min movie.
As for the black level problem, it disgusts me to no end how Panny's been handling it, but I think the sets still have a great picture. On another note, the more recent Sony LCDs have equalled or bettered some plasma's black levels... While it's true that some TVs are capable of showing a larger than standard color gamut, if they have proper calibration controls it should be possible to dial these back to the more realistic looking proper gamut.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> :scratch: Not completely true, 1080p gives you higher refresh rates meaning far less motion studder. If you have a PC near by it also gives you a super nice monitor to use if playing on line games or just serffing the web.


I've also always been of the opinion that at smaller sizes and longer distances the differences between 1080p and 720p aren't visible. I thought the higher refresh rates were generated in the displays themselves and had nothing to do with the display's native resolution... or are you saying that 720p displays aren't available with 72/96/120/240Hz? Of course, those refresh rates apply to LCD only, right?

A lot of people don't like the look of films on displays that make use of the higher refresh rates via frame interpolation.


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## spartanstew (May 7, 2009)

tonyvdb said:


> :scratch: Not completely true, 1080p gives you higher refresh rates meaning far less motion studder. If you have a PC near by it also gives you a super nice monitor to use if playing on line games or just serffing the web.


a 720p display will be equally effective as a monitor from 10' - 15' away.

Yes, newer 1080p displays can give higher refresh rates (i.e. 120hz), but the largest motion gain is when seated within desired parameters. 10' - 15' is not within the desired parameters of a 50" set (not according to Carlton Bale, not according to THX, not according to the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers). Would someone see the benefit of 120hz on a 50" display from 12'? Maybe. But doubtful. Not to mention the argument of whether or not you should even use 120hz. The eye is only capable of certain, measurable things.


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## spartanstew (May 7, 2009)

glaufman said:


> or are you saying that 720p displays aren't available with 72/96/120/240Hz? Of course, those refresh rates apply to LCD only, right?


I don't think 120hz (or 240hz) is available on any 720p displays. But I could be mistaken.

And yes, it really only applies on LCD.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Remember that 720p displays also dont do proper 24fps from BluRay discs to get full 1080p 24 you need a 1080p display. Refresh rates also apply to Plasma. I just did a search and there are a few 720p displays that do have up to 600hz refresh rates but I still think that 1080p for a 50" display gives you a better picture at 10' for sure 15' maybe not so much.


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

We decided to put it next to the fireplace at a 45. Better neck angle. For most viewing we will keep it on the angle and if we need to make it look nice, we can fold it flat against the wall. 

And while pixel pitch might not matter at this distance, I have found that the 1080p seem to give the more deep 3D crisp appearance over the 720p. And besides, there's not guarantee this will always be in this location or that the couches will always be right there. Also, what really sold us on it was the built-in networking features (which pretty much mandated a newer set).

We're excited. First HT/AV purchase I've made in years (for myself anyways). Thanks for the help. I'll let everyone know how it goes.


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

Funny, though -- most calculators we looked at said 50" was recommended for our seating distance. At 7' it went down to 46", and any farther it went up to 60".

We're not looking for an end-all theater immersion for this TV. For that, I'm looking at like an 80" TV 

This will be our sports, HGTV, nature show, and general watching TV (with a few movies here and there). Eventually I'll have my projector set up somewhere for the full movie experience (just haven't found the room for it yet.


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## spartanstew (May 7, 2009)

Anthony said:


> Funny, though -- most calculators we looked at said 50" was recommended for our seating distance. At 7' it went down to 46", and any farther it went up to 60".


I'd like to see those.

These are the ones that I use:

Recommends a 75" from 10' for the full benefit of 1080p

(click on the read the article link at the top of that chart for a great description).

SMPTE recommendation for 10' is 74", THX recommendation for 10' is 90"


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## Anthony (Oct 5, 2006)

*Samsung literature:*
Which Size HDTV is Right for My Room?
HDTV Size chart
With standard-definition TVs, the rule used to be that viewers would feel comfortable watching a set from a distance of 3 to 6 times the screen size in inches. With HDTV, the resolution is so much better that you can sit closer to a larger TV without noticing the pixels. So with HDTVs, the rule tends to be you can sit anywhere from 1.5 to 3 times the screen size (in inches) for the best experience.

If you know the size of the room you have already, where you want to sit, and where your new HDTV should go once you get it, you can figure out the size HDTV you should get.

* Minimum size = Viewing distance/3
* Maximum size=Viewing distance/1.5

*Other Links:*

http://www.dtvcity.com/plasmatv/plasmascreensize.html

http://www.cnet.com/hdtv-viewing-distance/

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-i8Lm138cMdj/learn/learningcenter/home/TV_placement.html

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1000021501



Okay, so they weren't all calculators, but these were the sites we checked and that was the advice given.

The dimensions you are quoting are for full on immersion theater where the theater is the only source of light and needs to fill up a certain percentage of your field of view. This is for a daylight watching family room -- TV needs to cover less of your field of view.


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## spartanstew (May 7, 2009)

Anthony said:


> The dimensions you are quoting are for full on immersion theater where the theater is the only source of light and needs to fill up a certain percentage of your field of view. This is for a daylight watching family room -- TV needs to cover less of your field of view.


That's true, except for the Carlton Bale data which is derived from exactly what the eye can see (assuming 20/20 vision) over certain distances. From 15' on a 50" display, for example, a viewer will not be able to tell the difference between SD and HD. That's why I had recommended 720p at one point. It's not about immersion, it's about the human eye being able to detect the differences in detail. I just recently purchased a 720p display for my father who is in a similar situation. His media enclosure would only fit a 42" display or less, but yet his viewing distance is about 10'. There was no reason for him to buy a 1080p set when they would both look identical from his seating distance (all other things being equal, or course). So, he saved a bunch of money instead. 

Also, even though I have a theater room where I watch most of my movies and where I can get immersed in the movie, I still like to have the largest screen possible for my other rooms as well (living room, game room). It's not about the sources of light or the _need_ to fill up a certain percentage of field of view, it's about the _wanting_ it to.

I could be watching The Andy Griffith Show on my 65" display in the living room and not really care if I'm Immersed in the show or not, but if a commercial/trailer comes on for Iron Man II, I'm certainly glad I have the 65" to watch it on for those 2 minutes.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

There are certainly multiple considerations here. First is the size of the TV vs the viewing distance, from the perspective of included angle. From this perspective most of what I've seen from THX et al recommends screens so big that most multipurpose rooms (as opposed to dedicated theaters) can't tolerate the size due to other aesthetic considerations. But you can go very big indeed.

The second is the issue of whether it's worth going to 1080p based on your (already) chosen screen size and viewing distance. I usually err on the side of going for it, but yes, at less than 50", at more than 8-10ft, most people simply cannot see the difference.

Then there's the issue of what refresh rates and other operating modes are available in the set. It's conceivable you'd want to go for a 1080 set to get certain features that aren't available otherwise, and there's nothing wrong with that. 

Ultimately, it sounds like you've made your decision Anthony, so nothing left now but to enjoy it!


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