# Time for a new Pre/Pro



## Gregavi (Sep 22, 2009)

Greetings,
Ok, I’ve narrowed it down to either the Marantz AV7005 or the Onkyo NR3008 as a pre/pro. I have a 5 ch. power amp that I’m very happy with so I could go either way as far as getting a true pre/pro or using an AVR as a pre/pro. I have a dedicated Home Theater that is setup with a 5.1 arrangement. I could fairly easily add more surround speakers in the future though.

Pros for the Onkyo are: Street price is lower (I would buy a refurb, therefore price is a bit lower); Audyssey XT32 compared to XT for the Marantz; 9 amp channels that could be used for something else, like more surround channels or zone 2 or 3 in other rooms in the house, etc.

The pros for the Marantz: It is a true pre/pro and I have always (and continue to) believe that a true pre/pro with a quality power amp, will outperform a similarly priced AVR/power amp setup. It makes sense that it would because all the cost is going into the pre/pro without the added cost of the amp section. Plus the heat factor that an AVR produces cannot be good for the electronics.

I have read a ton of great things about the 3008 though. I guess my decision sort of comes down to: Having a dedicated home theater with excellent room acoustic treatment in place, how important is the XT32 over the XT? My guess is that the room correction technology is really designed for people who are trying to improve a non-dedicated home theater room as much as possible, you know, with windows and lamps and furniture in the wrong place. Is it really going to help a room like mine that has no real obstacles? Another question is: Will the Marantz outperform the Onkyo, especially in 2 ch. music, which is about 40% of my usage?

Some other questions about SACD and DVD-A. In a review I read about the Marantz AV7005, the reviewer stated that one thing lacking was the ability for the 7005 to decode DVD-A or SACD. I thought the DVD player needed to decode those formats and it had nothing to do with the processor. Does that mean if you have a processor that decodes those formats, you don't need the player to do so? Or do you need both player and processor to have the capability? Does the 3008 have the ability, with or without the DVD player having the capability? I'm confused.
__________________


Any advice, answers or comments welcomed.

Cheers!


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Answered in response to the same query on another forum.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I would probably go with the Marantz. By not having Amplifiers inside, the Marantz will run cooler, draw less power, and it also offers XLR Connections.

It is nice to have the backup of an AVR in the event your Amplifier needs repair. And indeed XT32 is an awfully nice upgrade. Have you considered the Denon AVR-4311 which literally splits the middle by being an AVR while also offering a Preamp Only Mode where the Amplifiers are taken off line. It also offers XT32.
Cheers,
JJ


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## koyaan (Mar 2, 2010)

If your pre/pro has the ability to decode DVD-a and SACD, you still need a player that will play those formats which , in every case tat I know of, means that it will also decode them. If your decoding in the pre/pro, you will use the disc player only as a transport and convey the unprocessed signal from the player to the pre-pro via HDMI. You would wish to do this only if your Pre/pro has DACs that are better, or at least as good, as those in your disc player. 
It also keeps the signal in the digital domain further down the chain, which can't be a bad thing, and eliminates the need for 6-8 analog cabels. depending on your pre/pro, it may also eliminate one set of A/D conversions when applying bass management to the multi-channel signal. This all sounds like it should impact on sound quality, but except for the DAC quality issue, I doubt that there's any perceptible difference in the sound.


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## Gregavi (Sep 22, 2009)

Jungle Jack said:


> Have you considered the Denon AVR-4311 which literally splits the middle by being an AVR while also offering a Preamp Only Mode where the Amplifiers are taken off line. It also offers XT32


I have considered the Denon AVR-4311, but it is $500 more than the Marantz and not offered as refurb, like the Onkyo, at least no place I have seen. Also, if I were to use the amps for something, I may as well get the Onkyo and if I don't want to use them, the Marantz fits the bill except for the XT vs. XT32 issue.

What about my question about XT32 vs. XT, whether or not if it will make much difference in my home theater environment, where there are not really any obstacles to speak of and the walls are acoustic panels. And, would the Marantz outperform the Onkyo simply because it is a true pre/pro as opposed to the Onkyo, which isn't. Any opinion on either?

Thanks again JJ & KR


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

Gregavi said:


> What about my question about XT32 vs. XT, whether or not if it will make much difference in my home theater environment, where there are not really any obstacles to speak of and the walls are acoustic panels.


Who knows? My room is fairly well treated but XT32 made a difference for me. Would if make a difference for you? Have you measured the acoustics/speakers in your setup? Do you have 2 subs? Depends.



> And, would the Marantz outperform the Onkyo simply because it is a true pre/pro as opposed to the Onkyo, which isn't. Any opinion on either?


Simply for that reason? I doubt it but the Marantz is pretty good. http://forum.stereophile.com/content/music-round-47


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## Gregavi (Sep 22, 2009)

OK, now the Denon 4311 is back in the mix. It _is _available refurb for pretty much in-between the Onkyo ($1100 refurb) and Marantz ($1500 new) at $1350 refurb. Boy, just when I thought I had narrowed it down to 2, another contender emerges. I am now leaning toward the 4311. I like the fact that the amp section can be completely turned off, focusing the entire power supply to pre-amp and processing circuitry, and presumably running much cooler in the off mode. I would likely use the "Amps Off" mode for music and the "Amps On" mode for movies if and when I add surround speakers, or if I do multi-room. Question about turning the amps on/off: I assume this can be done remotely, as opposed to some mechanical switch.

Thanks


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
To engage Preamp Only Mode, I am almost positive it is done through the Setup Menu which of course is accessible via the Remote Control. As for the XT versus XT32 debate, XT32 is certainly more powerful in terms of the Processing and Filtering.

That being said, if your Room is fairly sound Acoustically, I do not think the difference will be groundbreaking as MultEQ XT is still an excellent Room EQ.

It is hard to fault the proposition of the Onkyo in that it offers THX Ultra2 Plus Certification and Post Processing, is available cheaper, offers a stronger Amplifier Section than the 4311, and in my opinion has a better Remote Control.

The Denon of course has the Preamp Only Mode, Denon Link which offers superbly low Jitter from HDMI when connected to a Denon BDP, and also offers the ability to run 11 Channels simultaneously whereas the Onkyo can only output 9 Channels. For the Denon to do 11 Channels, an Outboard Amplifier is needed which you of course have. This allows you to run Audyssey DSX Height and Width Channels and Surround Back Channels at the same time. Granted, not many Rooms can accommodate 11 Speakers and 2 Subwoofers, but some folks are fortunate enough to be able to do so.

I still think the Marantz is tough to beat, After checking it out when my little brother replaced his Parasound Halo C1 for the AV7005, I came away quite impressed. If I owned the predecessor Marantz SSP which cost around double and offered far less Features, I would be pretty upset.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Gregavi said:


> I have considered the Denon AVR-4311, but it is $500 more than the Marantz and not offered as refurb, like the Onkyo, at least no place I have seen. Also, if I were to use the amps for something, I may as well get the Onkyo and if I don't want to use them, the Marantz fits the bill except for the XT vs. XT32 issue.
> 
> What about my question about XT32 vs. XT, whether or not if it will make much difference in my home theater environment, where there are not really any obstacles to speak of and the walls are acoustic panels. And, would the Marantz outperform the Onkyo simply because it is a true pre/pro as opposed to the Onkyo, which isn't. Any opinion on either?
> 
> Thanks again JJ & KR


I bought Onkyo 5508 prepro 3 months ago. My dedicated HT is well treated but xtx32 is a big improvement.


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## Gregavi (Sep 22, 2009)

I ended up buying the Denon 4311. I did tons of research and came to the conclusion that it was the best AVR on the market in it's price range. So far I have been very happy with this AVR. I use my Cinenova Power Amp for the front 3 and the onboard amps for the wides, surrounds and rear surrounds. Multi-channel SACDs sound amazing. Had I known how great SACDs and DVD-As sounded, I would have invested in them sooner. Only wish there were more titles to choose from. I also wish Blue Ray Audio would take off. There are only a handful of titles available at present.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Gregavi said:


> I ended up buying the Denon 4311. I did tons of research and came to the conclusion that it was the best AVR on the market in it's price range. So far I have been very happy with this AVR. I use my Cinenova Power Amp for the front 3 and the onboard amps for the wides, surrounds and rear surrounds. Multi-channel SACDs sound amazing. Had I known how great SACDs and DVD-As sounded, I would have invested in them sooner. Only wish there were more titles to choose from. I also wish Blue Ray Audio would take off. There are only a handful of titles available at present.


Hello,
Congrats. I give you props for doing due diligence if you will. The 4311 is an excellent AVR and really should be the centerpiece of your HT for many, many years to come. As you have a Cinenova for the Front Stage, you really should have fantastic SQ. I too wish you and many, many, many others would have invested in them sooner as I really miss SACD being available in all genres. Now, many of the Rock/Pop Titles that are out of print sell for a small fortune. (check out what Beck's Sea Change sells for on Amazon and Ebay) Congrats again.
Cheers,
JJ


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## HIFI (Aug 3, 2011)

Gregavi said:


> I ended up buying the Denon 4311. I did tons of research and came to the conclusion that it was the best AVR on the market in it's price range. So far I have been very happy with this AVR. I use my Cinenova Power Amp for the front 3 and the onboard amps for the wides, surrounds and rear surrounds. Multi-channel SACDs sound amazing. Had I known how great SACDs and DVD-As sounded, I would have invested in them sooner. Only wish there were more titles to choose from. I also wish Blue Ray Audio would take off. There are only a handful of titles available at present.


First off, just want say I am new to the shack and I am excited to be a part of it. I to have just purchased the 4311. I am replacing a 2808 and putting the 2808 in my bonus room. I have not hooked the 4311 up yet. I have heard good things about it and was able to get it for a good price. I have all Boston Acoustics vr 950 fronts, vrc center, atlantic tech sub with Boston surrounds also in the vr line. Hope you enjoy your new 4311.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

HIFI said:


> First off, just want say I am new to the shack and I am excited to be a part of it. I to have just purchased the 4311. I am replacing a 2808 and putting the 2808 in my bonus room. I have not hooked the 4311 up yet. I have heard good things about it and was able to get it for a good price. I have all Boston Acoustics vr 950 fronts, vrc center, atlantic tech sub with Boston surrounds also in the vr line. Hope you enjoy your new 4311.


Hello,
Welcome to HTS. Congrats as well on your new AVR. Really glad to have you with us.
Cheers,
JJ


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## HIFI (Aug 3, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Welcome to HTS. Congrats as well on your new AVR. Really glad to have you with us.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Thank you! I will be setting it up over the Christmas holiday. I know the best way to change sound is to change speakers but I am curious to see if or how different it sounds. I know the calibration is better and I have heard that the 4311 has 4 power transformers. So we will see. I bought it for the features and if the sound is about the same that will be ok with me.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

HIFI said:


> Thank you! I will be setting it up over the Christmas holiday. I know the best way to change sound is to change speakers but I am curious to see if or how different it sounds. I know the calibration is better and I have heard that the 4311 has 4 power transformers. So we will see. I bought it for the features and if the sound is about the same that will be ok with me.


Hello,
I really think you are going to be quite impressed with Audyssey MultEQ XT32/SubEQ HT. This latest iteration of MultEQ is a huge step forward and your 4311 is one of only 3 current AVR's that offer XT32. (Onkyo's 3009/5009) The upper end Integra SSP's of the last 2 Series also offer it as do the discontinued 3008 and 3009.

I was not aware that the 4311 had 4 Power Transformers. Very good thing as it offers an amazing feature set and 9 Channels of Amplification. I also like that the 4311 is the only AVR or even SSP that supports simultaneous 11.2 Output of Audyssey DSX Height and Width Channels, and FL, CC. FR. SL, SR, SBL, SBR.
Once the Denon AVR-5308CI and the SSP based off it can be sent in to Denon to be upgraded to XT32/SubEQ and HDMI 1.4, I believe it too will support 11.2 like described above. Unfortunately, it is a $1000 upgrade and this upgrade will not be applied to even future 5308's. That is an Owner will always have to send these in to get XT32/1.4. Considering the 5308 costs $5500, this kinda bothers me. However, if you have owned one for 3 years, I would be dancing a jig as it makes your very expensive AVR completely up to date.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Gregavi (Sep 22, 2009)

HIFI said:


> Thank you! I will be setting it up over the Christmas holiday.


How could you possibly wait that long to set it up? I took the day off and set mine up 2 mins. after the UPS guy rolled away.:huh:


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## HIFI (Aug 3, 2011)

Gregavi said:


> How could you possibly wait that long to set it up? I took the day off and set mine up 2 mins. after the UPS guy rolled away.:huh:


 Not sure how long it will take to be honest but I do have to plug in bluray sacd direct tv all seven speakers and sub pull out the entertainment center calibrate and learn how to set up use all the features. I teach all day and take graduate classes at night. So all I spend a lot of time working and studying. Once I get my final project done then I will be able to set it up and relax and enjoy it. 

How do you like yours? Could you tell a sound difference?


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## HIFI (Aug 3, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I really think you are going to be quite impressed with Audyssey MultEQ XT32/SubEQ HT. This latest iteration of MultEQ is a huge step forward and your 4311 is one of only 3 current AVR's that offer XT32. (Onkyo's 3009/5009) The upper end Integra SSP's of the last 2 Series also offer it as do the discontinued 3008 and 3009.
> 
> I was not aware that the 4311 had 4 Power Transformers. Very good thing as it offers an amazing feature set and 9 Channels of Amplification. I also like that the 4311 is the only AVR or even SSP that supports simultaneous 11.2 Output of Audyssey DSX Height and Width Channels, and FL, CC. FR. SL, SR, SBL, SBR.
> ...


Thank you for the information. That makes me even more excited. Once I get this semester of grad school done I will get it set up. I am just too busy to take the time. As far as the transformers go I did not know that until that the sales guy I go through at the specialty store told me. I was able to buy it for $1530. I thought that was a decent price and it was hard to pass up.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
As far as Audyssey goes, all you really need is about 45 Minutes to preform XT32. While I know how difficult Graduate School can be, sometimes taking just an hour off can be a good thing and you could setup your HT.
Cheers,
JJ


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## HIFI (Aug 3, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> As far as Audyssey goes, all you really need is about 45 Minutes to preform XT32. While I know how difficult Graduate School can be, sometimes taking just an hour off can be a good thing and you could setup your HT.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Valid point. It will be set up as soon as I can get to it. When it is I will let you know how I like it. 

Do you run yours from a iPod or iPad? I have an ipad2 and I have downloaded the ap. I was wondering how well it worked.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Audyssey has to be run with the supplied Microphone and has nothing to do with the iPhone/iPad Application. All you need to do is plug in the Microphone into the Audyssey Mic Input which is behind the Hidden Door and follow the prompts which show up once the Microphone is connected.
Cheers,
JJ


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## HIFI (Aug 3, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Audyssey has to be run with the supplied Microphone and has nothing to do with the iPhone/iPad Application. All you need to do is plug in the Microphone into the Audyssey Mic Input which is behind the Hidden Door and follow the prompts which show up once the Microphone is connected.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I just meant running the receiver not Audyssey. I am familiar with how to use Audyssey from owning the 2808. But thank you for your concern. I appreciate it. Half way done with final grad project. It will not be long before it will be set up.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

HIFI said:


> I just meant running the receiver not Audyssey. I am familiar with how to use Audyssey from owning the 2808. But thank you for your concern. I appreciate it. Half way done with final grad project. It will not be long before it will be set up.


Hello,
I look quite forward to reading your impressions.
Cheers,
JJ


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## HIFI (Aug 3, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I look quite forward to reading your impressions.
> Cheers,
> JJ


In the process of hooking it up as I type. Just about to run calibration. Will let you know.


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## HIFI (Aug 3, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I look quite forward to reading your impressions.
> Cheers,
> JJ


I hooked up the 4311. Here is what I think: 
Fuller sound than the 2808
Very warm sounding with my Boston's vr950 fronts and vrc center
Bass sounded full and tight (Atlantic Tech)
Calibration gave me more sound out of my surrounds
Hooked it up with my ceiling speakers to be front height instead of 7.1 then switched to 7.1 with the DD EX. This sounded much better to me so I kept it there. 

Take care,
HIFI


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I am so glad that you are happy with it. It really is an excellent AVR and has the fullest Feature Set on the market as well.
Cheers,
JJ


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## HIFI (Aug 3, 2011)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I am so glad that you are happy with it. It really is an excellent AVR and has the fullest Feature Set on the market as well.
> Cheers,
> JJ


Thank you. Appreciate it. 
Take care


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