# What is your favorite "punchy" speaker?



## yosturm (Apr 10, 2011)

Hello All,

I have been scouring the internet looking for information on what pair of speakers to buy. I am looking for a nice pair of bookshelves. I will be using it as a 2.1 system and listen to a lot of rock and the wife likes top 40, which has a lot of hip hop and R&B. I just accidentally purchased a Sunfire Jr. sub from ebay, so I have the bass covered, however I still want the speakers to have a pretty decent bass/midbass so that there is not a large gap.

I understand that auditioning speakers will allow for the best selection but where I live it is a long drive to the big city to listen to speakers, and even then they will most likely not have all of the brands that I am looking at.

My question is, which brands, and or specific speakers are known for being "punchy" or good with rock music? I have read many reviews of outstanding speakers which in the conclusion the author writes that it was a great HT speaker but not for music, or that it is great with jazz but not rock.

Brands that I am currently looking into:
Paradigm
B&W
Mirage

I am looking at the $600 or less if new. I am not afraid to purchase an older version speaker from ebay if it is highly recommended and the crossover does not have electrolytic capacitors.

Thanks folks,


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## Mark Techer (Jan 17, 2008)

yosturm said:


> My question is, which brands, and or specific speakers are known for being "punchy" or good with rock music?


Pretty much any speakers with a QTC higher then 0.707 will provide a "punchy" response. Many book shelf manufactures have used this concept to make their speakers sound more "full bodied". What the higher QTC does is add a small peak to the mid bass. 


> I am not afraid to purchase an older version speaker from ebay if it is highly recommended and the crossover does not have electrolytic capacitors.


Why don't you want the capacitors? They are used to filter the HP section of the crossover for the tweeter so no low frequencies damage the fine wire used in the Tweeter's voice coil.


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## yosturm (Apr 10, 2011)

A qualified Electrical Engineer (and loudspeaker enthusiast) told me that electrolytic capacitors can degrade over time and that would change the value of the cap which would in turn affect the crossover freq. 

As for the QTC value, do manufacturers even publish that?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I would add Focal to your list as well along with PSB. If interested in PSB, check out DMC-Electronics.com.
Cheers,
JJ


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

IMO a high qtc isn't necessary to have a speaker with strong mid-bass. The most important thing, I would wager, is sufficient amplification / low thermal compression / and sufficient baffle step compensation. "Punchy" music usually has the punch mixed into the track. Your speaker just has to be able to produce sound pressure at your seating position, at the frequencies from 60hz - 200hz with high output, and they can't be shelved down from being too far from a wall (which is an unfortunate reality). 



> A qualified Electrical Engineer (and loudspeaker enthusiast) told me that electrolytic capacitors can degrade over time and that would change the value of the cap which would in turn affect the crossover freq.


I would actually agree with this. No need for high end cap brands with extremely tight tolerances but certain caps do have their advantages. Poly or even Mylar caps are preferable for this reason. 

Unfortunately, returning to your price range, how often do you see air core inductors and poly caps in entry level speakers? Not often!!!! Especially not in 2.5 or 3-ways!! 

Of course, if you know me, I always recommend active loudspeakers, where we don't have to worry about crossover components because the crossover is line level....

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.co...BiAmplified-Powered-Studio-Monitor?sku=580378






> As for the QTC value, do manufacturers even publish that?


Not likely, though you can generally get a feel for how the speaker sounds by looking at an anechoic frequency response. High Q speakers like some I have seen and heard often have a bit of a 2-3 db bump somewhere around 70hz-150hz to give the impression of "more bass".


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## yosturm (Apr 10, 2011)

GranteedEV said:


> Unfortunately, returning to your price range, how often do you see air core inductors and poly caps in entry level speakers? Not often!!!! Especially not in 2.5 or 3-ways!!


I was initially looking into some old B&W but a google search did confirm that they had electolytic capacitors, so I have stopped looking into old B&W speakers. Of course, I am sure that there is someone here who will attest that their old speakers are just fine.


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## Mark Techer (Jan 17, 2008)

yosturm said:


> A qualified Electrical Engineer (and loudspeaker enthusiast) told me that electrolytic capacitors can degrade over time and that would change the value of the cap which would in turn affect the crossover freq.
> 
> As for the QTC value, do manufacturers even publish that?


QTC is a number value that represents a certain predictable bass response where 0.707 is considered "perfect". A Subwoofer would have a QTC of say 0.5 which translates to deeper bass. Speaker manufactures would not admit that they "cheated" by reducing Vb to get the speaker to sound the way it does. 



GranteedEV said:


> IMO a high qtc isn't necessary to have a speaker with strong mid-bass. The most important thing, I would wager, is sufficient amplification / low thermal compression / and sufficient baffle step compensation.


Hopefully I can better explain with my own speakers. My LCRs required a box of about 30 litrs to achieve a QTC of 0.7. The F3 was over 125Hz with standard 12dB/oct slope (standard for a sealed box). Simulations looked great. When I built test boxes, the response was lacking in the lower mid bass. By reducing the box volume, I was able to add a small peak that apparently shifted F3 down to 79Hz. So the peak has effectively flattened out the response, not made it boom in my case. It also affected the roll off from 12dB increasing it to closer to 15 or 18dB/oct. I don't have the exact numbers on hand. The point is, these speakers do sound quite good on their own providing your not expecting to hear anything below 80Hz with the Sub-woofer not running. It is said that speaker building is more of an art than a science and my own project is testament to that.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
MartinLogans which use the Vojtko Crossover also do not use Electrolytic Capacitors. I believe the smaller Electromotion Series use this Crossover which is usually used in the 4000 Dollar on up Speakers.

Speaking of the Electromotions, the EM-ESL at 2000 Dollars is a major game changer. It uses the Xstat Panel that is used in the ESL and Reserve ESL Series and is available for 1995 MSRP. The initial User Reviews have been ecstatic. Here is a Link to the Speaker:http://www.martinlogan.com/electromotion/index.php
I realize it is not a Bookshelf, but it is a special Speaker at an amazing price for what you are getting.
Cheers,
JJ


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I believe that Paradigm, PSB and Focal (allthough maybe hard to find in your price range) would all be worth looking at. I for one would check out Paradigm they really do make some amazing sounds come out of those small speakers. If you are looking for certain at bookshelfs then i would check out the Titan Monitor (like $400) from them. 

Something i must point out however is that i have been a Paradigm junkie for 20 years so i am abit partial.:T


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm partial to the JBL Studio line:

either the L830
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-L830-6-Inch-Bookshelf-Loudspeaker/dp/B000FYZARY

or the L820
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-L820-Wall...1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1302766174&sr=1-1

I like these because they are bigger bookshelf size speakers. They have a lower frequency range than most others.
Each of these is shaped differently than the other so you can choose based on what physically fits best. The L830 is narrower but very deep. The L820 is very shallow but wide.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

yosturm said:


> I was initially looking into some old B&W but a google search did confirm that they had electolytic capacitors, so I have stopped looking into old B&W speakers. Of course, I am sure that there is someone here who will attest that their old speakers are just fine.


I have many family and friends that have purchased used B&W's, every single one is happy with them. All of mine have been purchased used, too. They are a good value if somebody else takes the first retail hit. :spend: They last a long time, too, and I am not exactly nice to mine. :hsd:

I had a pair of B&W DM601's from the 90's that had electrolytics. Partially because of this reason, I stepped up to the 602S3's. I am pretty sure the S2 series is also a safe buy, no electrolytics. You might want to check on this, though.

As GranteedEV pointed out, BSC will come into play if you plan on having the speakers a considerable distance from the wall. Mine are 2 ft. from the front wall, my f3 is 31.5hz without the subs.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

B&W 601S2 crossover picture. All good, no electrolytics.


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## yosturm (Apr 10, 2011)

Thanks for all of the outstanding replies.

I have seen a few deals around. A new pair of Focal 705V's for $350. A new pair of PSB Imagine B's for $650, or a used pair of Paradigm Studio 60 v2 for $600.

Jack,

Out of my price range for now, but what do you think of the Martin Logan Source, the cheapest of the electrostatic towers. I have seen it new for as low as $1300 a pair.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I think the value is very good for the Source and think they would make an exellent starter speaker if not a keeper speaker, i have been eyeballing them myself. Jack has the best knowledge of electrostats that i know of so i look forward to his reply.:T


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

yosturm said:


> Thanks for all of the outstanding replies.
> 
> I have seen a few deals around. A new pair of Focal 705V's for $350. A new pair of PSB Imagine B's for $650, or a used pair of Paradigm Studio 60 v2 for $600.
> 
> ...


Hello,
The Sources would do nicely. It truly is a very nice Speaker. The big advantage to the EM-ESL is that it uses the Xstat Panel and Airframe Aluminum Frame of the much more expensive ESL Series on up. 

I realize the EM is more than you were looking to spend, but it is such a special speaker at an amazing price for what it is. I think the EM's release has had to do with Source prices going down.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Newt Gingrich  !

Sorry, couldn't help myself :rofl: !


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Even if you don't 2 subs, at least wire for the second on so you can add it latter if you want. Not that any of us are never satisfied :whistling:.


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## morik (Mar 15, 2011)

yosturm said:


> Thanks for all of the outstanding replies.
> 
> I have seen a few deals around. A new pair of Focal 705V's for $350. A new pair of PSB Imagine B's for $650, or a used pair of Paradigm Studio 60 v2 for $600.
> 
> ...


If you are willing to go with towers, I can recommend a pair of Mirage OMD-15s, which you should be able to get for about $1000 from vanns.

I am running 2 OMD-15s as my mains in a 7.1 system. When I listen to music I do so in stereo mode, and I gotta say, these are really good speakers for the price. Fantastic sound IMO. (I cross the towers at 80 and have 2 really nice subs, but the towers also sound fantastic crossed at 60, and Audyssey suggests 40hz)


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