# 12,000 ft./3 room. Multi-sub help needed please.



## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

My living space is quite large with a volume of about 12,000 ft./3.

I have multiple elec. outlets but it may be difficult to run 12ga. twisted pair wire, let alone shielded cable, hence the look at wireless.

What’s your take on various wireless subs and the best way to approach this problem regarding sizes and speaker design?

The original thought was a ML Dynamo 1500 (sealed) but was told it would struggle in the sized room.

I’ve got more questions on this topic but your input will help for now.

Thanks in advance.

FYI. Tiles floors, concrete walls and limited resources here in Thailand.


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## kingnoob (Mar 12, 2013)

I suggest two or three of these http://stereointegrity.com/product/ht18-18-subwoofer/, if you want movie theater levels of bass. or better:T 
If you have a huge budget go with these one or twohttp://stereointegrity.com/product/hst18-18-subwoofer/

I am running a single SI HT 15" of these sealed:T 
Insane output,. but I might port mine when I move out of parents house.

DIY Subs , eat ones built by most company's for breakfast. Even SVS, and HSU can be beaten by some drivers. This one wipes the floor with them http://stereointegrity.com/product/hs24-24-subwoofer/. A single 24" is wayyyyy beyond my budget. If only I was rich I would put IMAX to shame , with what I would build.


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

kingnoob said:


> I suggest two or three of these http://stereointegrity.com/product/ht18-18-subwoofer/, if you want movie theater levels of bass. or better:T
> If you have a huge budget go with these one or twohttp://stereointegrity.com/product/hst18-18-subwoofer/
> 
> I am running a single SI HT 15" of these sealed:T
> ...


Thanks kingnoob, but any type of material for a DIY would be hard to come by here and the shipping costs to Thailand would probably exceed the cost of the product. :crying:

OMB a 24" sub?. I'd have fun with that if I was back in the US.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

I feel pretty confident that I'll build two 24" sealed sub setups for my room but the reality is it would be so much cheaper to stick to the 18". 

Right now I'm looking at decent amplification to drive these big beasts... they will perform all my ultra low bass of 25hz and lower. Dual HSU's to handle the 25-80.

I need lots of power and excellent built amps though preferably a/b design.


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## kingnoob (Mar 12, 2013)

Yeah go for it.
I need a decent job for a XPR-5 , SO I can try 9-11ch.


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## kingnoob (Mar 12, 2013)

Talley said:


> I feel pretty confident that I'll build two 24" sealed sub setups for my room but the reality is it would be so much cheaper to stick to the 18".
> 
> Right now I'm looking at decent amplification to drive these big beasts... they will perform all my ultra low bass of 25hz and lower. Dual HSU's to handle the 25-80.
> 
> I need lots of power and excellent built amps though preferably a/b design.


Two 24s would be epic though, if you build a larger box. Id like to see this


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

DIY is not a panacea, so be careful of falling into that trap. If done properly you can make some really unique and high-quality products, but once you get into that end of the spectrum - and not just some quick and dirty build - the cost relative to a manufactured product is not as wide as you may think. That becomes especially so if you assign a value to your own time for things such as researching components, posting on forums for advise, purchasing products, constructing your project, etc. If you have the tools, time and skills then it can be quite rewarding, but there are intangible expenses to consider when going down that route. When taken as a whole, DIY doesn't always prove to be the best option.

I reviewed the ML1500 about 2 years ago and I really liked it. Having first hand experience means I can make a pretty good assessment on what it can/can't do, and filling a space that size is definitely a can't. I'm not certain even a pair would have a chance. Realistically you would probably need at least 3, and perhaps even 4.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

kingnoob said:


> Two 24s would be epic though, if you build a larger box. Id like to see this


I'd do two seperate boxes. One 24 for each box.... flanking left and right outside of the mains and the 15" HSU subs just on the inside.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

theJman said:


> DIY is not a panacea, so be careful of falling into that trap. If done properly you can make some really unique and high-quality products, but once you get into that end of the spectrum - and not just some quick and dirty build - the cost relative to a manufactured product is not as wide as you may think. That becomes especially so if you assign a value to your own time for things such as researching components, posting on forums for advise, purchasing products, constructing your project, etc. If you have the tools, time and skills then it can be quite rewarding, but there are intangible expenses to consider when going down that route. When taken as a whole, DIY doesn't always prove to be the best option.
> 
> I reviewed the ML1500 about 2 years ago and I really liked it. Having first hand experience means I can make a pretty good assessment on what it can/can't do, and filling a space that size is definitely a can't. I'm not certain even a pair would have a chance. Realistically you would probably need at least 3, and perhaps even 4.


This is good advice. The cost for me to build two 24" subs w/ amps etc and the time involved.... or... just buy two PSA T-18s for 6k and it ships and done. About equal if you look at the time involved.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yeah Jim is right again. Also, the op said materials are difficult to come by. I mentioned before the value of someone else doing the R&D for a cohesive build. Just because you buy expensive parts doesn't mean you'll have a successful product. I've seen plenty of DIY subs that don't do what they're intended too. DIY doesn't always equal commercial sub destruction. Not to mention fit and finish can leave a lot to be desired, and that space deserves much nicer than roll on Berliner. That space will be almost impossible to pressurize with any sane amount of gear. I think the best he'll get is a good response curve, and that might be fine, as long as expectations are tempered accordingly.


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## kingnoob (Mar 12, 2013)

Talley said:


> This is good advice. The cost for me to build two 24" subs w/ amps etc and the time involved.... or... just buy two PSA T-18s for 6k and it ships and done. About equal if you look at the time involved.


WOW triple 18s , isnt the sub box a little small. Very easy to store, WOw Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 121.7dB ...Maybe go for these.:T
Maybe Ill try to DIY something like there XV30Fse , model.

Gotta be at-least triple as loud as , as a normal sealed 18.


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

Talley said:


> I'd do two seperate boxes. One 24 for each box.... flanking left and right outside of the mains and the 15" HSU subs just on the inside.


HSU's are not available here. :crying:


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## kingnoob (Mar 12, 2013)

Bahtman said:


> HSU's are not available here. :crying:


Get 4 http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15.html ,Only double the price of a DIY sub worth it, no work needed. My sub is more powerfull, yes but was harder to build ! advantage gos to commercial subs less work~! same performance usualy.


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

theJman said:


> DIY is not a panacea, so be careful of falling into that trap. If done properly you can make some really unique and high-quality products, but once you get into that end of the spectrum - and not just some quick and dirty build - the cost relative to a manufactured product is not as wide as you may think. That becomes especially so if you assign a value to your own time for things such as researching components, posting on forums for advise, purchasing products, constructing your project, etc. If you have the tools, time and skills then it can be quite rewarding, but there are intangible expenses to consider when going down that route. When taken as a whole, DIY doesn't always prove to be the best option.
> 
> I reviewed the ML1500 about 2 years ago and I really liked it. Having first hand experience means I can make a pretty good assessment on what it can/can't do, and filling a space that size is definitely a can't. I'm not certain even a pair would have a chance. Realistically you would probably need at least 3, and perhaps even 4.



You input and thoughts here are spot on.

My time is my own as I'm retired here and I've got plenty of it with no commitments anywhere. I've got the knowledge from past woodworking projects but quality materials are hard to come by in my neck of the woods. 
Hell, I had to fly to BKK just to audition speakers.

Researching components and shipping them to Thailand with the cost of their duty would certainly negate and savings over ready-made.

The only reason I mentioned the ML 1500 was a dealer in BKK had taken one in on trade and offered me a fair price. I know now it's sealed and will have trouble in this space.

Way back when, I brought 4- 6 way Pioneer CS-88a's (fronts and rears) back from Nam. Hooked um up to a then new Yamaha RX-V1,(no EQ back then) had a pair of Bose something's as surrounds (mounted as what's now called front highs) 2 mis-matched subs (front and rear) a Klipsch center and I was in heaven.
I didn't know squat about EQ, SPL's, summations and cancellations in bass, timbre matching, tonal characteristics and acoustical implications. But for me, it worked. "Easy peasy" :whistling:

The more I read and the more Gene and Carlos vids I watch, the more in depth and complex it gets and the more my synapses firing are being diminished. :unbelievable:

I wasn't an audiophile then or now and never expect to be one, but bless those that are and their passion for the perfect setup.

The plan now is to just pick up the 7.2 Denon, a pair or good mains with matched center (guess I did learn something) a pair of decent surrounds, a pair of ported subs and start from there. I’ll certainly gain more pleasure setting up and tweaking what I’ve got in hand, than spending immeasurable hours online trying to find my “perfect setup”

I guess I’m just old school and it’s time for me to get back to MY class.

Thanks again for all the "relevant" responses to my query.

Mike


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

kingnoob said:


> Get 4 http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15.html ,Only double the price of a DIY sub worth it, no work needed. My sub is more powerfull, yes but was harder to build ! advantage gos to commercial subs less work~! same performance usualy.


From HSU's website:

ULS-15 in Satin Black is not orderable.
ULS-15 Real Wood Veneer, Rosenut is not orderable.

Other products: Ships only to the US.

Thanks anyway


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

You know, with building supplies being limited. You would not need much actual wood if you built tube subs. Sonotube (or which ever company you have locally) should be readily availabe. And tubes are sonically much easier to design/build. All you are basically doing is building the base plate & end cap. Worth a look IMHO!


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Bahtman said:


> The plan now is to just pick up the 7.2 Denon, a pair or good mains with matched center (guess I did learn something) a pair of decent surrounds, a pair of ported subs and start from there. I’ll certainly gain more pleasure setting up and tweaking what I’ve got in hand, than spending immeasurable hours online trying to find my “perfect setup”
> 
> I guess I’m just old school and it’s time for me to get back to MY class.


Your approach is more salient than you might realize.

In my opinion too many people spend inordinate amounts of time, effort and money searching for the perfect setup. Trouble is, in their quest for the elusive unicorn they neglect one key piece of information; they're supposed to be enjoying this stuff at some point. Read, research, tweak, test, evaluate. Start from the top all over again. Too many don't throw the 'enjoy' step in there someplace.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Wow mike. You really put a smile on my face reading about your early mismatched setup. One of my early ones had cerwin vega D-9's(horns and 15's) for mains. A pair of GE or Realistic bookshelves for surrounds, and a weird pod shaped Pioneer car speaker for a center. Can you say mismatched¡¡¡ this was installed in a room with bare wood floors and a bay window roughly 16' long. I would probably barf today, but I loved it then. Ignorance can be bliss. Whew....


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

Tonto said:


> You know, with building supplies being limited. You would not need much actual wood if you built tube subs. Sonotube (or which ever company you have locally) should be readily availabe. And tubes are sonically much easier to design/build. All you are basically doing is building the base plate & end cap. Worth a look IMHO!


If you're talking about sonotubes used in construction (concrete filled) yea, I've seen them here, along with plywood and MDF. I've also bee to m/c rallies where the local Thai's show off their car systems that rock. I stuck my head in one guy's window and my whole head vibrated and what little hair I have left went ballistic. OMB(uddh) what a sound.

I just looked on YouTube at some ******** (no offence intended) making a 4 x 15" woofer box from 2 layers of MDf that barely fit in the back of their van. Rocked the whole thing, but not so sure about the quality befitting an in-home environment.

So your saying use the sonotube for the cylindrical enclosure and not your typical box type structure?

I've seen some pretty good sized woofers around town (surely for the car guy's DIY) but sourcing the other components, really might take some more research. And what about phase control and gsin and whatever goes into a good sub? Is it that easy? :dontknow:

Thanks Tonto for opening up another can of worms. Not sure if I should thank or curse you.onder:

Off to the drawing board. Ya got any more info for me to digest?


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Wow mike. You really put a smile on my face reading about your early mismatched setup. One of my early ones had cerwin vega D-9's(horns and 15's) for mains. A pair of GE or Realistic bookshelves for surrounds, and a weird pod shaped Pioneer car speaker for a center. Can you say mismatched¡¡¡ this was installed in a room with bare wood floors and a bay window roughly 16' long. I would probably barf today, but I loved it then. Ignorance can be bliss. Whew....


Ya know, I don't think I'd barf if I had that system today and not a head full of so much technical info I never relayed on in the past.
But there have been some interesting reads and I've learned a few small tidbits that may come in handy but for the most part I'm bedazzled with the majority of it.

Your dating your self with Radio Shack Realistic speakers and , a car speaker for the center?:rofl:
Maybe I would barf right along side ya. 

Glad to put smile on your face in all this and thanks for sharing your input.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yeah, those were interesting times. Lol
I'm gonna pile on tontos comments about sonosubs. I have an SVS cylinder, and a sono I built myself. Sonosub design software is free, as is winisd. Calculating is quick and easy. The place I got my tube from cut it to length. You may even find someone to cut the baffles. Then you just need ports, driver,amp and fiberglass. Parts express.com for ports and trim. That's an SVS SB2000 in between them.


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Yeah, those were interesting times. Lol
> I'm gonna pile on tontos comments about sonosubs. I have an SVS cylinder, and a sono I built myself. Sonosub design software is free, as is winisd. Calculating is quick and easy. The place I got my tube from cut it to length. You may even find someone to cut the baffles. Then you just need ports, driver,amp and fiberglass. Parts express.com for ports and trim. That's an SVS SB2000 in between them.


Feel free to plié away.

The SVS site lists a place in BKK as a source, just sent them an email.
Wooden baffles I can cut myself. Fiberglass for reinforcement?
I'd need sizing for amp, driver and whatever else is needed.
Parts express ....I'll have a look there as well.

Found winisid as well.


Thanks


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

:T:
Fiberglass batting for damping. PE sells polyfill. I found fiberglass to work better. Ymmv.


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## bcarver0267 (Nov 27, 2015)

My theater room is a little larger than yours. I am using the 2 Dayton 18" sealed sub kits from PE with inuke 3000 to run each sub. More than happy with the results of 2 diy subs. Only have about $650 in each sub setup. 

I went from 4 velodyne cht10s to 1 diy 18" Dayton (then added a second) and was amazed at the improvement. I think 2 kits from PE would surprise you.

1 long weekend of construction and a little tweaking and you are in business.


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## Bahtman (Feb 22, 2014)

Thanks for the input.....

In the end I went with 2 SVS 13.5 Dynamo's, front stage mounted as recommended by Ed.
DIY kits would have been nice but I'm in Thailand and added costs from material sourcing and shipping dictated off the shelf.
Both the Martin Logan 15's and the SVS's actually cost less here than in the states and , in the end, the SVS's are actually quite extraordinary.


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