# Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Preparations Thread



## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

*Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Final Preparations Discussion Thread*


:fireworks2:*SURPRISE!*:fireworks1:​

Those of you who tuned into the Home Theater Shack speaker evaluation events of 2013 and 2014 will recall that the listening panel put in many hours of critically listening and honestly reporting our findings. We are getting ready to do it again, this time with high-and amplifiers.

This coming Thursday through Saturday the 12th - 14th of March, we are gathering at Sonnie Parker's Cedar Creek Cinema in rural Alabama. We have collected an impressive list of top-rated amplifiers to evaluate from designers you will recognize. 


Emotiva XPA-2
Exposure 2010S
Krell Duo 175
Mark Levinson 532H
Parasound HALO A31
Pass Labs X250.5
Sunfire TGA-7401
Van Alstine Fet Valve 400R
Wyred 4 Sound ST-500 MK II
Denon X5200 AVR
The loudspeakers we will be using are the sonic microscopes through which we will be inspecting the characteristics of those amplifiers. There are some exciting speakers we will be experiencing for the first time. Of course you will receive commentary from the panel on each of them. Plus there will be a complete review of each of the new-to-HTS (**) speaker models involved.


Acoustic Zen Crescendo Mk II, courtesy Robert Lee, Acoustic Zen Technologies **
Spatial Hologram M1 Turbo v2, courtesy Clayton Shaw, Spatial Audio **
Chane A5rx-c, courtesy Jon Lane, Chane Music Cinema **
Martin Logan ESL
An additional activity we have decided to squeezed into an already busy weekend will be the panel's comparison of Dirac Live vs. Audyssey XT32, as has been requested by a number of our members.

Other key equipment special for the event:

Speaker cables and interconnects by Morrow Audio, courtesy Mike Morrow
Van Alstine ABX Switch Box, recently updated version (February 2015)
miniDSP nanoAVR DL, courtesy Tony Rouget, miniDSP
OPPO BDP-105
Sounds like enough to keep us busy, no? As in the past, we will be posting comments and photos from the event as they occur, and will send goodies to Todd Anderson for Facebook updates. We just might even be able to squeeze out a brief YouTube or Instagram video or two of certain parts of the festivities.


Date: Thursday evening, March 12th through Saturday evening, March 14th.
Place: Cedar Creek Cinema, Alabama, hosted by Sonnie, Angie, and Gracie Parker.
Evaluation Panel: Joe Alexander (ALMFamily), Leonard Caillouet (lcaillo), Dennis Young (Tesseract), Sonnie Parker (Sonnie), Wayne Myers (AudiocRaver).
Stay tuned, lots of details to follow over the next week!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

This should be a lot of fun!

All except the Wyred 4 Sound amp are in the house... in the listening room.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Wish you could of fit a Classe' amp in there too. 

Glad to see you have a stout Krell in there.... my personal favorite. Can't wait for this!


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

No EMOTIVA = a real disappointment :unbelievable:


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## Dwight Angus (Dec 17, 2007)

Looking forward to the amp evaluation & Audyssey Xt32 vs DIRAC


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

We have been working on this for about six months now, looking for amps, requesting accommodation, etc. During that time I contacted Emotiva in an attempt to get an amp on industry accommodations. I actually wanted two amps, one for the event and one for my personal use. I thought we had something worked out, but my last two emails did not get a response, so I gave up. 

*None the less... I am absolutely sure we are going to get a plethora of comments pertaining to various amps members would have liked to have seen and wished could have been included. Unfortunately, we can't arrange to get them all... and we only have so much time to work with anyway. *


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

RTS100x5 said:


> No EMOTIVA = a real disappointment :unbelievable:


Emotiva is not necessarily a high end piece. Comparing the first amps on the list to the X5200 should be the same as comparing to the Emotiva

The title says "High-End" amplifiers.... even my Krell doesn't really constitute high end. It's 11yrs old and is not even in the same class as the Duo 175

Seems like aside from the Denon; the pricing starts around 2500k and moves up to around 7500 for the Krell.

(Please understand I did not say emotiva is not a good piece... but price wise high end and looking at the list they all seem to favor the 3k-5kish range?)


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Dwight Angus said:


> Looking forward to the amp evaluation & Audyssey Xt32 vs DIRAC



Me too! I'm having some issues with my x4000 so I'm wanting to move to a krell preamp/dirac to handle all of the audio


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

We probably need to re-think our title... as it really isn't just about comparing "high-end" amps. There are probably some who might not necessarily consider them all high-end. We mainly wanted to make sure we had some high-end brands in the mix. Most high-end audiophiles will highly respect several of these brands. The 532H was on Stereophile's Recommended A list in 2012 with a MSRP of $8,000.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Sonnie said:


> We probably need to re-think our title... as it really isn't just about comparing "high-end" amps. There are probably some who might not necessarily consider them all high-end. We mainly wanted to make sure we had some high-end brands in the mix. Most high-end audiophiles will highly respect several of these brands. The 532H was on Stereophile's Recommended A list in 2012 with a MSRP of $8,000.


Ya I'd agree. Maybe an under $7500 amp event like you did with the speakers.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

If you wanted to test an 11yr old Krell Showcase 7 amp let me know. Would be the only multichannel amp other than the Denon. All I'd ask for is free shipping from me and back to me


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

We have the Sunfire that is 7-channel and the A31 is 3-channel, but we will only evaluate them in 2-channel mode. I don't think we have room for any more, since we still have a couple of others that are not on the list.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Indeed, we are covering a range of amps that _includes_ some high end specimens. I still think the title serves our purposes, but will change it for the actual EVENT thread when we get it started, if y'all prefer.:hail:


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Seeing that I use pro amps for my mains and sub these amps you will be testing are high end to me.....


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

I am not thinking that we can get everything done that we would like, but we will dive in and try. Can't wait to get there. I'll be getting in Thursday night. I am looking forward to seeing the guys again and working together. What a fun group.


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## Serenity Now (Mar 28, 2014)

If possible, can you add a test with a low efficiency bookshelf pair as well as towers. I have noticed that lower efficiency speakers show differences in amps more readily than higher ones. Great idea and cant wait to read the results.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

tcarcio said:


> Seeing that I use pro amps for my mains and sub these amps you will be testing are high end to me.....


Stay tuned... :bigsmile:



Serenity Now said:


> If possible, can you add a test with a low efficiency bookshelf pair as well as towers. I have noticed that lower efficiency speakers show differences in amps more readily than higher ones. Great idea and cant wait to read the results.


The ESL's will work for that purpose. That is really more about making sure you have enough power if you plan to pushing the more difficult speakers to louder levels. I had that issue with my Ultras... the X5200 would clip at reference levels, while any of the more powerful amps I used does not.



lcaillo said:


> What a fun group.


Amen to that!


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

And Dennis Young - Tesseract - will be a member of the panel. Welcome, Dennis.

The idea for this get-together came from Leonard. A number of months ago in a PM exchange I mentioned that I missed our evaluation weekends. His response was to Sonnie, suggesting that we plan an amplifier evaluation weekend, and before we knew it we were setting the date.

To say it is a fun group does not begin to express what these weekends are like. If we could bottle the essence of the experience and sell it, we would all be rich. But to keep it short, i will just say another _Amen!_ Good times will be had!


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Kudos guys, that is a fine installment of amps & speakers. I agree with Leonard that you're gonna have your hands full getting all that equipment compared. Let alone "broke in." Since I have a vested interest in the A5's, will be looking forward to how they sound with better amps! Have fun guys!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Only a couple of these are new amps... and a I have had them for a while, other than the W4S. We'll keep one for fresh out of the box to see if break-in makes a difference.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks for the welcome, Wayne. 

Looking forward to seeing you, Sonnie, Angie, Joe, and meeting Leonard for the first time. Sonnie has already told me about some of the food he will be grilling up, so I'll be bringing my ears and my appetite. :meal:

Gonna be a lot of fun... and a lot of work. :nerd:


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Our plates will indeed be full. Until they are empty. Refers to the BBQ and to the audio work to be done. What a way to spend a weekend. It is going to be Legend.....


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Dary!


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

I wonder if it is too late to throw an SET into the mix?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I don't think it's ever too late for anything... if we have time. We can do what we can do and report on it. If it don't get done... it don't get done and we won't report on it. :huh:

Line it up!


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Sonnie said:


> I don't think it's ever too late for anything... if we have time. We can do what we can do and report on it. If it don't get done... it don't get done and we won't report on it. :huh:
> 
> Line it up!


In honor of the event I will crank up the pink floyd to maximum levels for the entire weekend on your Ultra system :devil:


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Sonnie said:


> I don't think it's ever too late for anything... if we have time. We can do what we can do and report on it. If it don't get done... it don't get done and we won't report on it. :huh:
> 
> Line it up!


I'll see what I can do. :T


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

This may also be something that will put some light on the subject of "do all amps sound the same"


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

tonyvdb said:


> This may also be something that will put some light on the subject of "do all amps sound the same"


A related thread which bubbles to life on a regular basis is the Can We Really Hear A Difference Between Amps? thread. Some panel members have weighed in on the "No" side of the argument before. At one of our Speaker Evaluation events, we did some amplifier comparisons, which were inconclusive. The one amplifier we could hear "stand out" had a bias/distortion problem. Other than that, we heard no difference. But it was only a brief glimpse at the question.

I believe we are all sincerely open-minded in our approach to this event. The rev 2 ABX Switch allows seamless switching between two sources, two power amps - with level matching to 0.1 dB, and three sets of speakers, and will support sighted, blind, and double-blind testing. We are finalizing our test methods, but I am sure they will include a mix of methods. More to follow on this.

We are really doing all we can to set up a system that will allow us to experience a difference if there is one. And I am confident in the ability of all panel members to be open minded listeners.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

For what it's worth... only two of us that will be in this group were part of that very casual comparison. Three on this panel were not, and at least one of those firmly believes he can hear a difference in amps. 

Regardless of the outcome of this event, it will only prove what we who participate in the event can and cannot hear during this event... not what others may be able to hear or not hear... or even what we may be able to hear or not hear under different circumstances. We realize there will always (ALWAYS) be those who stand firm on one side or the other... and we have absolutely ZERO anticipation of convincing them otherwise... nor is it our goal.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> This may also be something that will put some light on the subject of "do all amps sound the same"


Ya you have some that won't ever admit to hearing a difference. some will always argue if the same variables exist then you cannot hear a difference just like cables.

The problem is 99% of them only try two amps and call their opinion sound. Try a EMOTIVA XPA-200 then try a Marantz then try a Krell then a Classe....

...then slam an Audio Research Ref 600 monoblocks and destroy the rest.


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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

Subscribed! Excited to see that this tradition is continuing at HTS. I was worried we had seen the last of it . . . and a big welcome back to Sonnie in this event -- looking forward to your contributions again (beyond the obvious contribution of hosting the thing of course).


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

tonyvdb said:


> This may also be something that will put some light on the subject of "do all amps sound the same"


This was the first thing that came to mind. I will be looking forward to the measurements and to tell you the true I'm most excited about hearing more about the ARX.

All of those amps are out of my price range and I will be working on my room before I even would look into Amps for my 2 channel setup.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

We will be doing a mix of semi-formal blind A/B/X amp comparisons and free-form / longer sessions. By blind, I mean an amp pairing where the listener does not know what the amps are, only knows when there is a possible switching, must determine and identify a difference. Right now the plan is pre-determined pairings (random-drawn) with blind, formal comparisons on Friday and other pairings / free-form listening on Saturday.

Truly formal, statistically valid double-blind testing is time consuming and beyond the scope of our weekend.

Some prefer "long term comparison." There will be some time for this, within the bounds of practicality, where a listener can listen, switch, compare as he chooses, then can say, "OK, test me."

Details to follow.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

Sonnie said:


> For what it's worth... only two of us that will be in this group were part of that very casual comparison. Three on this panel were not, and at least one of those firmly believes he can hear a difference in amps.
> 
> Regardless of the outcome of this event, it will only prove what we who participate in the event can and cannot hear during this event... not what others may be able to hear or not hear... or even what we may be able to hear or not hear under different circumstances. We realize there will always (ALWAYS) be those who stand firm on one side or the other... and we have absolutely ZERO anticipation of convincing them otherwise... nor is it our goal.


Sounds like the right approach Sonnie, in a very controlled environment. Looking forward to seeing the results of your efforts either way.


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## creimes (Feb 18, 2015)

I will be awaiting on bended knee for the thoughts of the new A5rx-c, I currently run Stealth 6 for my LCR and am moving to the A5rx-c and A2rx-c for my mains, trying to sell the Stealth 6 speakers with no such luck though, yesterday a local fellow audio enthusiast who owns Monitor Audio Silver 8's and some Paradigm Studio 100v2 with new mids and tweets from the Signature line came over for a listen to my Stealth 6 monitors and was very impressed :neener: , I'm thinking the A5rx-c will have some big shoes to fill but I'm not too worried from reading everyone's thoughts on the original A5.

It is too bad there will be no Emotiva amp there, I will be for now powering the A5's with a Emotiva LPA-1 and maybe down the road grab some used UPA-1 monoblocks(had some but sold them a while back) many don't consider the Emotiva's high end because of their price point which is too bad because for me and my income it is my high end haha, and I have owned many of the Emotiva amps and they have all sounded superb.

Looking forward to this, many thanks

Chad


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

My uncle who is far more knowledged then I am who also own a pair of Ref 600s and a pair of Krell FPB 350m's and he says the Krells have always packed a deep tight punch in the lower bass notes.

I'd be curious as to the bass response you get from the krell vs. the other amps...

...and to validate my uncles claims. He said the Krell is perfect for rock music or anything that is amplified where the Ref 600s excel at voice/natural unamplified instruments


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Wow. Would love to be part of this! Can't wait for your findings. Awesome.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

We may end up getting an Emotiva. They contacted me today and I invited them to send an amp. 

And yes... I did send them copies of my last two emails that went unanswered.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

creimes said:


> I will be awaiting on bended knee for the thoughts of the new A5rx-c, I currently run Stealth 6 for my LCR and am moving to the A5rx-c and A2rx-c for my mains, trying to sell the Stealth 6 speakers with no such luck though, yesterday a local fellow audio enthusiast who owns Monitor Audio Silver 8's and some Paradigm Studio 100v2 with new mids and tweets from the Signature line came over for a listen to my Stealth 6 monitors and was very impressed :neener: , I'm thinking the A5rx-c will have some big shoes to fill but I'm not too worried from reading everyone's thoughts on the original A5.
> 
> It is too bad there will be no Emotiva amp there, I will be for now powering the A5's with a Emotiva LPA-1 and maybe down the road grab some used UPA-1 monoblocks(had some but sold them a while back) many don't consider the Emotiva's high end because of their price point which is too bad because for me and my income it is my high end haha, and I have owned many of the Emotiva amps and they have all sounded superb.
> 
> ...


I might just end up taking those Arx home and dropping off my A5s to Tonto on the way home. :clap:


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## creimes (Feb 18, 2015)

Sonnie said:


> We may end up getting an Emotiva. They contacted me today and I invited them to send an amp.
> 
> And yes... I did send them copies of my last two emails that went unanswered.



Very cool, I did post a thread on the Emotiva Lounge about it, maybe they seen my thread and got in contact with you :rubeyes:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Yep... she did mention someone posting something about the amp event on the Emotiva forum. Maybe it will work out. :T


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## creimes (Feb 18, 2015)

Awesome, IMO they sell great products at even greater prices and it's nice to be able to see them put in direct comparison with the higher priced stuff(Stuff I can't afford haha).

I'm really looking forward to my Chane speakers as well, I've only had the pleasure to own Monitor Audio RX6 and RX Center and now my Stealth 6's.

Chad


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

I frankly do not care what the other amps sound like as Emotiva is the only one i would buy over my AVR.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Leonard wrote:



> I might just end up taking those Arx home and dropping off my A5s to Tonto on the way home.


Don't tease me bro!!! :rofl: Well, at least I know Sonnie got that one. :scratch: 

There is quite a bit of sentimental value in that set of speakers though. Truly special. Jon says his group buy on the A5rx-c was his best one yet. Nearly sold out the complete run. Looking forward to this round for sure.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Tonto said:


> Leonard wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was gonna jump on that group buy myself until Sonnie messed it all up for me


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

AudiocRaver said:


> And Dennis Young - Tesseract - will be a member of the panel. Welcome, Dennis.
> 
> The idea for this get-together came from Leonard. A number of months ago in a PM exchange I mentioned that I missed our evaluation weekends. His response was to Sonnie, suggesting that we plan an amplifier evaluation weekend, and before we knew it we were setting the date.
> 
> To say it is a fun group does not begin to express what these weekends are like. If we could bottle the essence of the experience and sell it, we would all be rich. But to keep it short, i will just say another _Amen!_ Good times will be had!


I'm all ears! An intriguing event, and would love to be there. This has the makings of an episode of "Live from Daryl's House!" _Any plans for some You Tube cameos?_



tonyvdb said:


> This may also be something that will put some light on the subject of "do all amps sound the same"


. . . A N D . . . 



AudiocRaver said:


> A related thread which bubbles to life on a regular basis is the Can We Really Hear A Difference Between Amps? thread. Some panel members have weighed in on the "No" side of the argument before. At one of our Speaker Evaluation events, we did some amplifier comparisons, which were inconclusive. The one amplifier we could hear "stand out" had a bias/distortion problem. Other than that, we heard no difference. But it was only a brief glimpse at the question.


These discussions inevitably turn to correlating measurements with perception. Now I'm not condoning one stance or another, but I'd like to share this article, which involves subwoofer plate amps designed by Senior Electrical Engineer at Atlantic Technology, Paul Ceurvels. The main topic focuses on Paul's development of a reliable way (their words) to predict an amplifier’s sound character based on a simple test (their words again).

I think departs from common snake-oil in connecting what we hear (or don't) with what can be measured (or not). An interesting read in any case.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Emotiva is in... I just added their XPA-2 to our list. Tracking shows it will be delivered to the house on Thursday.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> I'm all ears! An intriguing event, and would love to be there. This has the makings of an episode of "Live from Daryl's House!" _Any plans for some You Tube cameos?_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Friday's amp evaluation time will be double-blind comparisons of six amp pairings. The Listener will have time to "get acquainted" with an AB pairing, then will have four tracks to listen to with a possible "switch" point in the middle of each, and will be asked to determine each as AA, AB, BA, or BB pattern. All 5 of us will have the chance to do the same for all 6 pairings that day. Then we will compile the results.

Saturday will be more free form.

Later we will see if the results correlate with amp specs.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I really wish all of the true believers could participate in this event or one like it.
Oh wait, what am I sayin'?? 
Forget the true believers....I would like to participate in an event like this, even if it would mostly be to eat all the BBQ :wave:


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Sonnie said:


> Emotiva is in... I just added their XPA-2 to our list. Tracking shows it will be delivered to the house on Thursday.


Good to hear this. 

Remember the Krell is class A... it needs time to warm up. 

...it needs a good 20 min to warm up which is not going to work well with the testing.

Please if anything allow it to warm up at least once


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Haha don't worry Talley, no need to start priming the pump just yet, the Krell won't sound any worse than the rest of the amps/AVR will.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

Talley said:


> Good to hear this.
> 
> Remember the Krell is class A... it needs time to warm up.
> 
> ...


I am sure it is already running and will remain on for the duration.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

The Exposure amp says right in the instruction manual that it needs 30 minutes of warm up to sound it's best. I'm thinking about wrapping it in a comforter.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

We can A/B the before/after warm-up time. :huh:


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## novisnick (Oct 2, 2013)

Wish there was an Emotiva XPR-2 at least, if your not doing MONOBLOCKS 8)


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## TheHills44060 (May 15, 2014)

Talley said:


> Emotiva is not necessarily a high end piece. Comparing the first amps on the list to the X5200 should be the same as comparing to the Emotiva...


I agree with this assessment. No need to waste time and clutter the list with an amplifier like an Emotiva. The sample set is diverse enough.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

TheHills44060 said:


> I agree with this assessment. No need to waste time and clutter the list with an amplifier like an Emotiva. The sample set is diverse enough.


Well I don't want to be ignorant so it's a good thing they worked out fitting in the Emotiva in there.

I'm actually curious of the sound of the Emotiva so may order me a 3 monoblocks and run the rears on the X4000 and compare that to all 5 channels of the krell.

I think that would be a great review IMHO. 

I paid 1850 for my Krell and 3 Emotiva XPA 100 monoblocks would cost right at 1200....

however I would end up with dedicated monoblocks pushing twice the watts.

So now I am very curious of the results of this testing vs. the Krell and having the Emotiva in the mix.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Keep in mind that this is not merely a comparison of high-end amps between each other, it is also a comparison of high-end amps compared to other amps not necessarily considered high-end. We have others that will also be in the mix that have not been revealed.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Sonnie said:


> Emotiva is in... I just added their XPA-2 to our list. Tracking shows it will be delivered to the house on Thursday.


Perfect, I'm glad they did not send a XPR-2. I have a feeling Emotiva is going to see a small sales increase after this. I think it's pretty crazy how quickly they sent a unit after it came on the radar.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Sonnie said:


> Keep in mind that this is not merely a comparison of high-end amps between each other, it is also a comparison of high-end amps compared to other amps not necessarily considered high-end. We have others that will also be in the mix that have not been revealed.


 Too bad you can't do this over a week. I'm really looking forward to this shakedown. Just wondering, especially since you guys have done this kind of thing, is this something where you need to consider things like being over stimulated, (so many amps, so little time. Lol) or how lack of sleep might play into your perception of the criteria? Subjectively I mean.


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Too bad you can't do this over a week. I'm really looking forward to this shakedown. Just wondering, especially since you guys have done this kind of thing, is this something where you need to consider things like being over stimulated, (so many amps, so little time. Lol) or how lack of sleep might play into your perception of the criteria? Subjectively I mean.


No doubt the things you suggest can all be factors. We take frequent breaks, really try to protect their hearing. I have a pair of extreme attenuating ear protectors that I will wear when I am not actively listening. We are able to put in a pretty heavy day Friday, then Saturday take longer breaks and don't push so hard. And plenty of sleep is definitely important.

Of course we are there to have fun too. But a big part of the fun is doing a good job for the readers and those following along, so we will play responsibly and stay fresh.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Blacklightning said:


> Perfect, I'm glad they did not send a XPR-2. I have a feeling Emotiva is going to see a small sales increase after this. I think it's pretty crazy how quickly they sent a unit after it came on the radar.


 I agree. I think it says a lot too. Headline: "The little amp that could ". Hard to predict how this will go down, but I smell an upset in here somewhere. Who knows, maybe by the 250 dollar Sony Charlie mentioned. Hmmmm....


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Thanks Wayne, I figured seasoned guys(smart fellers), such as yourselves would have thought of things like that. Sounds like blast, even if it was only htib's. ...I think I smell brisket....
Have a great time.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

I've heard an oversimplification from more than one source that goes something like this: Power amplifier output is just AC power modulated by the input signal. Given that a particular power supply section is competently designed to sufficiently condition the incoming AC, doesn't it make sense to run the amp straight from the wall? The reasoning commonly cites unrestricted current flow that outboard power conditioning devices would otherwise impede.

Is that pseudo-science/snake-oil? Does the setup include power conditioning, or will the amps be run straight from the wall? Thoughts on whether the same conditioner can cause some amps to sound better than others based solely on athe amps' superior/inferior supply sections?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

No conditioners... straight to a dedicated circuit.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Sonnie said:


> No conditioners... straight to a dedicated circuit.




Too bad it's not 4awg fed like my Krell is. Krells love big cable


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Hmmm... perhaps Krell should include those with their amps if it improves it that much. :scratch:


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Sonnie said:


> Hmmm... perhaps Krell should include those with their amps if it improves it that much. :scratch:


I'm talking about the house wiring. The cord that comes with the krells is usually 14awg on the smaller amps and 12awg on the larger amps.

I've got three custom cords that my uncle made for me one for my Krell, denon and my sub... all three are 10awg with the Furutech iec connectors on each end and he had them cryo'd for me. 

He claims I'll hear a difference... I'm anxious to find out.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

What are the differences you are to notice?


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> What are the differences you are to notice?


Not sure yet. I plan on listening to select pieces for a while and then swap the cords out. and then see if there is a difference....

however he did mentioned there would be some more burn in time but the cryo' accelerates that. He said to give it two weeks of listening and then swap back to the stock cables and then note any differences.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I'd be curious to see a thread when you do this. Trying not to derail this one. I somehow feel like a kid with a stick standing under a bee hive....


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> I'd be curious to see a thread when you do this. Trying not to derail this one. I somehow feel like a kid with a stick standing under a bee hive....


haha ya I agree.

Back on topic.

I'm uber excited over this amp listening. Very curious to the results. Obviously I'm krell biased but really want to see the results of the other amps.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Me too. ...wish they'd get on with it already. Lol


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

All of my house wiring is 12/2 (other than appliances, etc that require larger wiring). I don't know anyone in these parts that uses 14/2 any more. I have two dedicated 20 amp circuits run to the front of my room.


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Talley said:


> Not sure yet. I plan on listening to select pieces for a while and then swap the cords out. and then see if there is a difference....
> 
> however he did mentioned there would be some more burn in time but the cryo' accelerates that. He said to give it two weeks of listening and then swap back to the stock cables and then note any differences.


You might want to limit your selections to only two or three different songs. Even then, ask yourself which sonic aspects are most important--dynamics, transient attack, soundstage, etc. Once you've decided, find a roughly 30 second long passage in each selection which showcases them. That will help keep auditory memory from creeping in to influence your conclusions. And you're probably already aware it can be hard to avoid the power of suggestion, so I'm sure you're anxious to get started! Here' to hook-up happiness!


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> I'd be curious to see a thread when you do this. Trying not to derail this one. I somehow feel like a kid with a stick standing under a bee hive....


Sorry 'bout that. Yup, me too (about derailing). Here's an idea, though I'm not familiar with the legalities or logistics: How about some YouTube cameos of the shoot-out and/or BBQ?


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

BlueRockinLou said:


> You might want to limit your selections to only two or three different songs. Even then, ask yourself which sonic aspects are most important--dynamics, transient attack, soundstage, etc. Once you've decided, find a roughly 30 second long passage in each selection which showcases them. That will help keep auditory memory from creeping in to influence your conclusions. And you're probably already aware it can be hard to avoid the power of suggestion, so I'm sure you're anxious to get started! Here' to hook-up happiness!


Good point.

1. Stanley Clarke - Buenos Aires - Live at the Greek
2. King James - Cherokee - The King James Version
3. Pink Floyd - Two Suns in the Sunset - The Final Cut

These are my three reference songs  The horn on the pink floyd song... HUGE upgrade on the SVS Ultra speakers vs. NHTs


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I do not expect any amplifier to be distinguishable from another in the blind testing assuming they are level matched.
Still hoping to see a low/mid grade AVR as one of the mystery amps.
Might as well hook it up with the oldest cheapest RCA cords available and use bailing wire to the speakers just to make it even more interesting.


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## creimes (Feb 18, 2015)

I think the thing I'm most excited to hear about is the performance of the Chane speakers haha


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Sorry 'bout that. Yup, me too (about derailing). Here's an idea, though I'm not familiar with the legalities or logistics: How about some YouTube cameos of the shoot-out and/or BBQ?


 that's a great idea Lou! Sonnie can wear a gopro. It'll be the MLP cam.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

chashint said:


> I do not expect any amplifier to be distinguishable from another in the blind testing assuming they are level matched. Still hoping to see a low/mid grade AVR as one of the mystery amps. Might as well hook it up with the oldest cheapest RCA cords available and use bailing wire to the speakers just to make it even more interesting.


 Awesome! Just like the "hanger" wire test. This would be a fun twist.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

chashint said:


> I do not expect any amplifier to be distinguishable from another in the blind testing assuming they are level matched.
> Still hoping to see a low/mid grade AVR as one of the mystery amps.
> Might as well hook it up with the oldest cheapest RCA cords available and use bailing wire to the speakers just to make it even more interesting.


That assumes that those connections would sound different than the "better" cables. We will do our best NOT to confound variables in our evaluations.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Chane availability?
The last word on the Chane speakers was that they are not available, new ones still stuck in shipping port and no working demo's to send?


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Well I haven't looked up any of those amps yet....it would be a very nice alternative if you could include a tube amp. Sorry if one of those is.

On a side note. I'm not much of an electrician, but I do have 3 APC S15's. They supply power when needed (if the circuit becomes stretched). I can't imagine it would, but if you ever want to use them in an event I'm happy to bring them up.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

lcaillo said:


> That assumes that those connections would sound different than the "better" cables. We will do our best NOT to confound variables in our evaluations.


Or the assumption is those connections sound the same as the "better" cables.
But agreed it is probably best not to confound the variables.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

gdstupak said:


> Chane availability?
> The last word on the Chane speakers was that they are not available, new ones still stuck in shipping port and no working demo's to send?


We were hoping to get the painted prototypes he had in his shop, but he still needed the crossover to make them up and he was hoping to have them today and have them ship today so we would get them by Friday, but I did not hear from Jon, so I assume he did not get the crossovers and the A5's will miss the event. 

The Crescendos are going to miss the event too. He was supposed to ship those on Monday. We were told today that he should have them ready to ship by tomorrow. Uhhhh... I can see those coming overnight at 250 pounds... a couple thousand shipping. So we'll have the ESLs and the Spatials, which are no doubt very nice speakers. I tell ya... it is difficult for us to plan stuff these days without having backups for backups for backups. We know we can't control port strikes... but we also can't always depend on what some manufacturers tell us either. We have had several manufacturers tell us we could count on them to only be let down.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Sonnie said:


> We were hoping to get the painted prototypes he had in his shop, but he still needed the crossover to make them up and he was hoping to have them today and have them ship today so we would get them by Friday, but I did not hear from Jon, so I assume he did not get the crossovers and the A5's will miss the event.
> 
> The Crescendos are going to miss the event too. He was supposed to ship those on Monday. We were told today that he should have them ready to ship by tomorrow. Uhhhh... I can see those coming overnight at 250 pounds... a couple thousand shipping. So we'll have the ESLs and the Spatials, which are no doubt very nice speakers. I tell ya... it is difficult for us to plan stuff these days without having backups for backups for backups. We know we can't control port strikes... but we also can't always depend on what some manufacturers tell us either. We have had several manufacturers tell us we could count on them to only be let down.


I should of let you hold onto the SVS speakers for a bit more then huh


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Jon posted in his forum that it did not look like he would be able to get his A5's to the eval in time.

I hope Wayne can do an eval when they are available.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

It's on...


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

We'll have some rib tips, smoked sausage, Cajun sausage, jalapeno sausage, and bratwurst cookin' up a bit later. I have some pork and fat in the crock pot been simmering all morning. I'll use that broth to make up a big ole pot of rice. I highly suspect there's gonna be some good eatin' round here later this evenin'. Of course I am the official taste tester... iffen you see the end of one of them pieces slightly disturbed. :bigsmile:


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Don't need no food.... get that *KRELL* hooked up!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

The Krell has been hooked up for quite some time now. That's the least of our enjoyment on grillin' day. :T


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## bkeeler10 (Mar 26, 2008)

Posting pictures sounded like a good idea, until I had to see that last one. Now I'm just jealous. Yum!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> The Krell has been hooked up for quite some time now. That's the least of our enjoyment on grillin' day. :T


You could just use the Krell as your grill, Im sure its hot enough to do some cooking :bigsmile:


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> You could just use the Krell as your grill, Im sure its hot enough to do some cooking :bigsmile:


I know mine would. The heatsinks get to around 165f and the top of the case is around 130f when running

between the krell and the projector my room gets warm rather quickly. I'm bringing in a dedicated filter return to my HT room to help suck the heat out which will be up above one of the french doors in the ceiling so it gets the "heat" up there.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

I shared the information of this evaluation with my uncle and this was his comment:

_"I would take the Pass over all these not even hearing some of these. The Pass has the solid state punch with the tube hint and sounds great."_

Thats a man w/ a 300k+ system and 40yrs of hi-fi and the Irony is he has Krell 350mc monoblocks and audio research Ref 600s and Apogee Duetta II Signatures.

I'd still take my krell ... all matter of opinion


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Talley said:


> I shared the information of this evaluation with my uncle and this was his comment:
> 
> _"I would take the Pass over all these *not even hearing some of these*. The Pass has the solid state punch with the tube hint and sounds great."_
> 
> Thats a man w/ a *300k+ system and 40yrs of hi-fi* and the Irony is he has Krell 350mc monoblocks and audio research Ref 600s and Apogee Duetta II Signatures.


Sounds like a real old school audiophile... I wonder what our grand-kids will say about us?

_"My grandpa would pick AMP A only after reading a bunch of reviews, seeing measurements and A/B testing.

He has a under $5000 system, he has spent lots of time treating the room and positioning the speakers. Here, look at all of the graphs proving his system is flat and tuned. His system does not look expensive but it sounds good._


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Or how about: _"You can lead an audiophile to REW, but you can't make hime think."_

Wait a minute... I'm an audiophile :gulp:


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Or how about: _"You can lead an audiophile to REW, but you can't make hime think."_
> 
> Wait a minute... I'm an audiophile :gulp:



haha. Ya he knows I'm using REW but he swears up and down that it's only an instrument and my ears are the true verdict...

...but my ears cannot detect a -2db peak at 150hz and his way was playing sine tones and an SPL meter. uh... I prefer a quick sweep and be done with it and have all sorts of I cannot explain pop up.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Maybe being an audiophile should be a religion as you need to have faith and believe...

Okay, I'm going to stop for today, I'm getting goosebumps.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Blacklightning said:


> Maybe being an audiophile should be a religion as you need to have faith and believe...
> 
> Okay, I'm going to stop for today, I'm getting goosebumps.


Normally I would agree.

But there has been soo many people demo his system and all end up saying that it's one of the best they've heard.

He has done alot of work to it. wish I had some photos to share but overall it's just an average audiophile gear junky room.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Sonnie said:


> It's on...


 Wow Sonnie that's some fine dining! Is it too late to book a ticket and lend a very amateur ear to the testing table?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Sonnie said:


> It's on...


 Priorities!


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Talley said:


> But there has been soo many people demo his system and all end up saying that it's one of the best they've heard.


If I sunk $300k+ into my audio system I would be extremely disappointed if all I got when someone heard it was it's "one of " the best I have ever heard.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Hey Sonnie, post more pics of the important stuff ...... BBQ.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

chashint said:


> If I sunk $300k+ into my audio system I would be extremely disappointed if all I got when someone heard it was it's "one of " the best I have ever heard.


best really. the president of the chicago symphony uses his system as a reference and also the owner of reality cables uses his system as a reference as well. few other scenarios like that but ya it's up there.

I'll get there since he's pointed me on the right track. Mapleshades/morrow have the right formula... "apparently"

Very surpised to see morrow cables in this mix.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Talley said:


> Normally I would agree.
> 
> But there has been soo many people demo his system and all end up saying that it's one of the best they've heard.
> 
> He has done alot of work to it. wish I had some photos to share but overall it's just an average audiophile gear junky room.


I believe you, I'm not putting down your uncle.

I have heard lots of great systems from $$$ to $$$$$$. I'm just not big on "my $100,000 system is good" or" Brand X Amp is the best hands down". The fact that your system cost (whatever) or your amps have a fancy name on it does not change anything. 

I would just say that your Uncle has a very good system.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Blacklightning said:


> I believe you, I'm not putting down your uncle.
> 
> I have heard lots of great systems from $$$ to $$$$$$. I'm just not big on my $100,000 system is good or Brand X Amp is the best hands down. The fact that your system cost (whatever) or your amp have a fancy name on it does not change anything.
> 
> I would just say that your Uncle has a very good system.


I agree 100%... seriously I do. I do know he has spent more time doing power conditioning, acoustical treatments and has a $400 digital level and has uses lasers to align his speakers and makes sure the plumb/level is perfect and makes sure that both speakers are identically placed. Which probably make the biggest difference than other "gear" per se

I do think that is probably important considering he is an analog setup with no room correction setup at all. For timing ya they would have to be exact to be just right.

Call me new school but I like room correction but I'm movies and he's only 2 channel music.


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Talley said:


> I agree 100%... seriously I do. I do know he has spent more time doing power conditioning, acoustical treatments and has a $400 digital level and has uses lasers to align his speakers and makes sure the plumb/level is perfect and makes sure that both speakers are identically placed. Which probably make the biggest difference than other "gear" per se
> 
> I do think that is probably important considering he is an analog setup with no room correction setup at all. For timing ya they would have to be exact to be just right.
> 
> Call me new school but I like room correction but I'm movies and he's only 2 channel music.


Nothing wrong with the way you and your uncle are doing your systems. You will both end up with great systems. Your Uncle will just end up spending more money.

The same way his $400 level will be just as great as any calibrated level for any price.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Thought I was the only maniac who used lasers to set up. Maybe that's why it sounds like 300k. Oh wait... That's how much I've spent on BBQ!!!!
Looks great Sonnie! Got me droolin.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> Thought I was the only maniac who used lasers to set up. Maybe that's why it sounds like 300k. Oh wait... That's how much I've spent on BBQ!!!!
> Looks great Sonnie! Got me droolin.


hehe... ya the pit I wanna by is 3k. I use to bbq a ton and it's died down so I refuse to upgrade my standard smoker. Ribs are my specialty


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> Thought I was the only maniac who used lasers to set up. Maybe that's why it sounds like 300k. Oh wait... That's how much I've spent on BBQ!!!!
> Looks great Sonnie! Got me droolin.


oh ha... just saw your laser comment.

nope... I'm part of that crowd! I just need a digital level now.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Talley said:


> oh ha... just saw your laser comment. nope... I'm part of that crowd! I just need a digital level now.


 I really am an amateur at this stuff! Any members wanna come over for beer and bbq to properly set up my living room rig?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> Holy cow! I really am an amateur at this stuff! Any members wanna come over for beer and bbq to properly set up my living room rig?


 Love to! Gotta figure out how to explain the road trip to my wife. Lol


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Love to! Gotta figure out how to explain the road trip to my wife. Lol


 Probably just end up drinking beer and eating great bbq. I'm sure your system is great.


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## novisnick (Oct 2, 2013)

Talley said:


> Well I don't want to be ignorant so it's a good thing they worked out fitting in the Emotiva in there.
> 
> I'm actually curious of the sound of the Emotiva so may order me a 3 monoblocks and run the rears on the X4000 and compare that to all 5 channels of the krell.
> 
> ...


The Emotiva XPA-1L is the monoblock that you want to hear, the 100 is no slacker but if you want a high end sound then the XPA-1L is the ticket. I've enjoyed these amps and can attest to their performance.
Just my two cents. 8)


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

willis7469 said:


> Probably just end up drinking beer and eating great bbq. I'm sure your system is great.


 I can have my wife explain to yours the importance of a properly set up system and that you use lasers! It's a no brainer and we'll have an endless supply of beer and bbq! Just sayin…


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> I can have my wife explain to yours the importance of a properly set up system and that you use lasers! It's a no brainer and we'll have an endless supply of beer and bbq! Just sayin…


 Well, she's more likely to believe your wife than me! I'm just a mad scientist around here. Lol. At the very least we'd have 1)beer 2)BBQ, and I suspect good company. Oh yeah, LASERS!


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

novisnick said:


> The Emotiva XPA-1L is the monoblock that you want to hear, the 100 is no slacker but if you want a high end sound then the XPA-1L is the ticket. I've enjoyed these amps and can attest to their performance.
> Just my two cents. 8)


I'm sure they sound great! I landed too good of a deal on my Krell and was my first purchase and is what kick started doing a theater.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Updates? or did you guys eat so much ya'll passed out and are still hibernating?


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## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Talley said:


> Updates? or did you guys eat so much ya'll passed out and are still hibernating?


Don't expect much. I would be spending as much time listening and would not even think about going onto a computer.

The worse is after the event. It seems like it takes forever for everyone to post the findings. :hissyfit:


----------



## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Well... I think I can already summarize the event... Here goes:

Krell > *

The end.


----------



## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

BlueRockinLou said:


> I've heard an oversimplification from more than one source that goes something like this: Power amplifier output is just AC power modulated by the input signal. Given that a particular power supply section is competently designed to sufficiently condition the incoming AC, doesn't it make sense to run the amp straight from the wall? The reasoning commonly cites unrestricted current flow that outboard power conditioning devices would otherwise impede.
> 
> Is that pseudo-science/snake-oil? Does the setup include power conditioning, or will the amps be run straight from the wall? Thoughts on whether the same conditioner can cause some amps to sound better than others based solely on athe amps' superior/inferior supply sections?


The amp's power supply ideally isolates the amp from the power source, like a water tower isolating your kitchen tap's flow from the flow rate of the well head. As long as the water level in the tower stays high enough, you don't notice what is happening at the well. It is not a perfect analogy, because it is all happening in the milliseconds time frame, but it gives you the idea. Plus it reminds us that it is DC flow being controlled by the amp's circuit, not AC.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Guess we can quit and just eat Sonnie's grilled meats and peach cobbler.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Talley said:


> Well... I think I can already summarize the event... Here goes:
> Krell > *
> The end.


Krell
Krell
Krell
Krell

Yawn

If this group (or any one person in the group) can reliably identify amplifiers in blind testing it will be the first time that has ever been documented.
Maybe this will be the breakthrough event though and the age old assertion of audiophiles that amps sound different will finally be proven.


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

LOL, if Krell was so amazing more people would own them and there prices would be more reasonable. 
lets move on to the real discussion and enjoy all of them.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

And the winner is....


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I think the Krell is in last place for right now... sad as it may be. 

Dennis wanted me to add that's it's making a great door stop.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

chashint said:


> Krell
> Krell
> Krell
> Krell
> ...


But if not... how could we prove they didn't just sit around and stuff themselves with BBQ and cobbler all weekend?


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Sonnie said:


> And the winner is....


 drooooooool..........


----------



## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> And the winner is....


Ohhhh...that looks so gooood!


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> And the winner is....


 THE RIBS!


----------



## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

The peach cobbler is the big winner - my first ever and it was amazing!


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Sonnie said:


> I think the Krell is in last place for right now... sad as it may be.
> 
> Dennis wanted me to add that's it's making a great door stop.


I wouldn't doubt it to be honest. I kinda figured that would be the general consensus considering...


----------



## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

Sonnie said:


> I think the Krell is in last place for right now... sad as it may be.
> 
> Dennis wanted me to add that's it's making a great door stop.


That can't be true it's a $7000 2 channel amp. It must be better than cheaper amps... :innocent:

End all be all it's a great amp with a great name backing it. :spend:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Kudos to the chef(s). Lots of ear/brain food, the better to review amps with!


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Sonnie said:


> And the winner is....


 Wow! That looks AMAZING!


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

ALMFamily said:


> The peach cobbler is the big winner - my first ever and it was amazing!


 You've lived a sheltered life if that's your first go of peach cobbler!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

JBrax said:


> You've lived a sheltered life if that's your first go of peach cobbler!


What do you expect from a house husband who doesn't get out of cheese country for very many hours a year?

Man... that Pass Labs.... wow... that Pass Labs amp is absolutely...

*DO NOT OPEN... DO NOT CLICK THIS BUTTON! >>>>>* 



BEAUTIFUL to look at.... it is gorgeous! I haven't listened to it yet... waiting my turn.


----------



## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I think the Denon AVR may have moved into last place along with the Krell.


----------



## Blacklightning (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm sure I missed it somewhere but what are you guys using for Preamplifier?


----------



## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Blacklightning said:


> I'm sure I missed it somewhere but what are you guys using for Preamplifier?


We are using those fantastic ribs as a preamplifer! 

Really, it's a sophisticated level matching ABX switch box from Frank Van Alstine.


----------



## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Talley said:


> I wouldn't doubt it to be honest. I kinda figured that would be the general consensus considering...


Chin up! We are not done, yet. Today is sighted, tomorrow is the blinded litmus test.


----------



## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

Sonnie said:


> I think the Denon AVR may have moved into last place along with the Krell.


I've heard Denon doesn't make very good ribs...


----------



## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

The Japanese have great beef, but the pork lacks inner detail. Sonnie fixes all of that with slow cooking and smoke though.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Peter Loeser said:


> .


I've heard Denon doesn't make very good ribs...[/QUOTE]
That is funny!


----------



## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tesseract said:


> Chin up! We are not done, yet. Today is sighted, tomorrow is the blinded litmus test.


Eh. Still doubt it. It's the same as running a 600hp mustang down the street on two rear spare tires on bad fuel.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

600 hp mustang? Now that's smells of snake oil. (No not cobra mustang snake oil).


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Sonnie said:


> I think the Denon AVR may have moved into last place along with the Krell.





Blacklightning said:


> That can't be true it's a $7000 2 channel amp. It must be better than cheaper amps... :innocent:
> 
> End all be all it's a great amp with a great name backing it. :spend:


The Krell purchase was probably an "upgrade" whose intention was to subjectively improve the system's sound in an earnest pursuit of perfection.

Perfection is, philosophically speaking, an unachievable goal but a worthy pursuit. The treadmill of upgrades afflicts many hobbyists seeking perfection. Regardless of hobby, there are always useless products to spend money on, delivering results from zero to mediocre. But once pursuit of perfection is removed, our A/V hobby is commoditized and convenience becomes the objective. Watching a movie or listening to music no longer mean watching or listening - they're simply another form of light consumption, like snacking. :whistling:
_Paraphrased from this editorial_

Sonnie told us the AVR and KRELL are at the bottom. 
See? All amps sound the same :rubeyes: 
Are we there yet? Not!
I rule :neener:


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> I've heard Denon doesn't make very good ribs...


That is funny![/QUOTE]

"That's funny; I doan care who ya are, that's funny right thar" :rofl:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The Denon at the bottom does not surprise me given its probably underpowered. The Krell on the other hand actually does surprise me (not so much that its being beat by other amps but that its been lumped into the same category as the Denon).


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Uh-oh... that amp sounded really good. Whoa!!!


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Sonnie said:


> Uh-oh... that amp sounded really good. Whoa!!!


 Must be the Emotiva. Test over let's eat!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Actually the Emotiva sounded identical to the amp it was compared to (to my less than perfect ears), after some channel level tweaking. The left and right channels were about 3dB off. But thankfully the ABX Box allows us to level match all channels as needed.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Sonnie said:


> And the winner is....


Man, that looks awesome.
Gimme any one of those sausages and a squirt of mustard and I would dribble it all over my shirt.

It's a good thing I am smoking a brisket tonight.
It's a bad thing it won't be ready till lunch tomorrow.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

ALMFamily said:


> The peach cobbler is the big winner - my first ever and it was amazing!


Oh nooooo, I thought everybody's granny made peach cobler.

Now there are two kinds of cobbler, there is the less desirable (but still plenty good) pastry cobler that has pie crust on top and bottom, then there is the most highly desirable (heavenly, eat it until you pass out) cake cobbler that has cakey gooey goodness throughout.

Which one did you get to try out ????


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Yep, I was thinking how good one of those would taste on a potato, hot dog bun. No mustart though, just the smokey port fat!!! Dad gum it, now I've gone & made myself hungry!


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

One of the main things to consider is this....

What your hearing is electricty/circuitry moving a speaker voice coil/cone to turn it into pressure waves. We all know this right?... 

The problem is you can take A amp and B amp and put them at Sonnies house and they will sound a certain way. You put them over in Canada at Tony's house and they will sound completely different when compared.

it all starts back at the utility grid feeding your power and the quality of the power being delivered to your home. There has been cases where testing the power quality of the sine wave where you could see frequency spikes on the power line coming in when the neighbor would turn a vacuum on or run a toaster. The more equipment you add to the worse it gets. Sine wave is usually extrememly stable but can be become dirtied and affected by this other equipment.

Comparing this one amp at sonnies house to another amp the effects more heard then not would be the amplifiers ability to condition the power coming in isolating it from the circuitry of the amp. I'm not very familiar with these amps and really not so much the Krells either but that is something to consider. Does this very conditioning capability make one amp better than the other... SURE does! 

However the other factor is again... every home is different and one amp might sound great at so and so house but sound terrible at another house a few states over.

One thing I never understood is how people want to just buy one or two amps and call it good type thing.

A true audiophile will buy and/or demo a dozen amps to figure out what matches will to his home/room and other components.

My uncle will flat out tell you that out of all the krells he has listened to... that his sounded completely different in a good way compared to anyone one elses he's heard. This was his explanation to me and told me that Krells should be fed with a dedicated 20amp circuit through a balanced isolation transformer and be fed with a #8awg wire at a minimum.

This was one thing he had done and his very own Kell monoblocks sounded very different when put at a friends house compared to his. This was his only explanation was the power conditioning he had done to feed the krell was the only explanation he could think of.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

and please understand I'm not an expert in the audio field nor am I an expert in power quality for electrical wiring. 

I am a Master Electrician/manager who works in the petrochemical industry working in both electrical and instrumentation and power quality is a big deal to these sensitive electronics and have seen first hand what weird electricity can do.

removing DC from the incoming line is very important and is completely audible when removed.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Talley said:


> removing DC from the incoming line is very important and is completely audible when removed.


And thats what the transformer does in the amp its self, nothing more needed.

I have never met any of these guys who are doing this test session in person but I trust there opinion over yours all due to the fact that they are open minded and are willing to let the real world results speak for themselves. I dislike it when someone come and says that because they are a specialist in a particular area that they know whats best all because of what they have been taught. Ive learnt running front of house sound for the past 30 years that not everything you have been taught is in reality correct. 

Clearly you love your Krell, thats great but its not going to convince me or many others that its better than any other good quality amp out there.

Can you please let it rest now and let them concentrate on having some fun.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

We have run with and without power conditioning, which did happen to clean up the hum/buzz in one particular amp, although it did not effect the sound characteristics of the amp... only the fact that it eliminated a very low level hum/buzz that could only be heard when everything was muted. Still got to check another amp to see if it will clean it up as well.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> And thats what the transformer does in the amp its self, nothing more needed.
> 
> I have never met any of these guys who are doing this test session in person but I trust there opinion over yours all due to the fact that they are open minded and are willing to let the real world results speak for themselves. I dislike it when someone come and says that because they are a specialist in a particular area that they know whats best all because of what they have been taught. Ive learnt running front of house sound for the past 30 years that not everything you have been taught is in reality correct.
> 
> ...


Clearly I'm playing around with the whole Krell > * and all my krell love. In the end, it was the first thing I bought and I definately plan on doing my own testing with other amps to compare myself.

I would be IGNORANT if I thought it was the best. I plan on trying lots of different gear.

and I never meant to come across that I was some specialist... but I do know that electricity continues to throw everything I've ever learned about it out the window and leaves me scratching my head saying "that is not suppose to happen" type stuff. I'm one of the most open minded people you can meet and sorry it comes out that way.

I assure you I am one of the most excited persons about this test and will remain active in the discussion. The only part that gets me is the results will be like some gauntlet slamming down and people will take it for the end all of choices when very little people will actually take the time to do their own testing and try multiple amps or other gear.

Personally... my Krell is 11yrs old, it works, got it for a good price and I can sell it later for 0 loss. why not try it. I'm wanting to try an Emotiva amp next and see what thats all about but side by side with my Krell first.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

tonyvdb said:


> And thats what the transformer does in the amp its self, nothing more needed.


Thats not entirely true. Most do not contain isolation transfomers nor many are balanced at that.

BUT... I just purchased a 1000w isolation transformer and should get that the end of next week and I will try it out on the krell by itself and/or the denon and let you know what I hear if anything.

Testing ... thats what it's all about


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Talley said:


> This was one thing he had done and his very own Kell monoblocks sounded very different when put at a friends house compared to his. This was his only explanation was the power conditioning he had done to feed the krell was the only explanation he could think of.


Couldn't be the different house/room/speakers/and that one thing that happens when you space out listen sessions.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

Talley said:


> Clearly I'm playing around with the whole Krell > * and all my krell love. In the end, it was the first thing I bought and I definately plan on doing my own testing with other amps to compare myself. I would be IGNORANT if I thought it was the best. I plan on trying lots of different gear. and I never meant to come across that I was some specialist... but I do know that electricity continues to throw everything I've ever learned about it out the window and leaves me scratching my head saying "that is not suppose to happen" type stuff. I'm one of the most open minded people you can meet and sorry it comes out that way. I assure you I am one of the most excited persons about this test and will remain active in the discussion. The only part that gets me is the results will be like some gauntlet slamming down and people will take it for the end all of choices when very little people will actually take the time to do their own testing and try multiple amps or other gear. Personally... my Krell is 11yrs old, it works, got it for a good price and I can sell it later for 0 loss. why not try it. I'm wanting to try an Emotiva amp next and see what thats all about but side by side with my Krell first.


 I don't think people will take any of this as a be all end all slam gauntlet style. I would guess most members of this forum use the testing as a guide to steer them in the right direction when it comes to making a purchase. I've yet to be steered wrong in any purchase made armed with info obtained on this forum.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Agreed. I have been scouring eBay in hopes of finding an amp to add to my system. I will read every word about every amp in this thing


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Talley said:


> Clearly I'm playing around with the whole Krell > * and all my krell love. In the end, it was the first thing I bought and I definately plan on doing my own testing with other amps to compare myself. I would be IGNORANT if I thought it was the best. I plan on trying lots of different gear. and I never meant to come across that I was some specialist... but I do know that electricity continues to throw everything I've ever learned about it out the window and leaves me scratching my head saying "that is not suppose to happen" type stuff. I'm one of the most open minded people you can meet and sorry it comes out that way. I assure you I am one of the most excited persons about this test and will remain active in the discussion. The only part that gets me is the results will be like some gauntlet slamming down and people will take it for the end all of choices when very little people will actually take the time to do their own testing and try multiple amps or other gear. Personally... my Krell is 11yrs old, it works, got it for a good price and I can sell it later for 0 loss. why not try it. I'm wanting to try an Emotiva amp next and see what thats all about but side by side with my Krell first.


We have no control over how people take the results of our reviews. I can't say that we don't care, but we don't do it for any other reason than that we have a great time together and share a love of music and technology. We try to provide results that are useful or interesting to others, and try to share the joy of the experience but if someone wants to take away something we don't intend, they are perfectly welcome to do so.

And don't take Sonnie's comments too seriously. He is a notorious joker. Just ask Wayne.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

And don't take me too seriously either. I'm here for enjoyment and knowledge also. This site has already cost me more money in two months then I would of ever originally thought


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

And continuing on with some mighty fine grub....


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

I can't wait to see what's for breakfast.
Oops I forgot about the snackage during the evening listening sessions.
Keep posting those pics.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Just got my brisket in the smoker, using apple wood for the flavor this time.

My compliments to the cook Sonnie, that is some fine looking vittles.


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

lcaillo said:


> And don't take Sonnie's comments too seriously. He is a notorious joker. Just ask Wayne.


Awwww, I thought Sonnie was spilling the beans early to avoid having to do his write up.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

chashint said:


> Just got my brisket in the smoker, using apple wood for the flavor this time. My compliments to the cook Sonnie, that is some fine looking vittles.


Applewood is my favorite in the smoker.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

chashint said:


> I can't wait to see what's for breakfast. Oops I forgot about the snackage during the evening listening sessions. Keep posting those pics.


Breakfast? Maybe a cup of coffee and a little granola will be all I need. Did you see that steak?


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

lcaillo said:


> Breakfast? Maybe a cup of coffee and a little granola will be all I need. Did you see that steak?


 Was that a steak? I thought it was a pork loin?


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

It was so big I thought it was a brisket!


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

chashint said:


> Hey Sonnie, post more pics of the important stuff ...... BBQ.


+1


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## AudiocRaver (Jun 6, 2012)

The Event Reporting and Discussion thread is now open, carry on the conversation there.


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