# Thoughts on bi-wiring????



## joonbug99 (Feb 24, 2011)

I just received my KEF C series speakers. I have 2 C7's and 4 C3's. In any event. They have two sets of terminals and the Manual talks about bi-wiring or bi-amping. 

I have never heard of either of these two things. I am not interested in bi-amping but if bi-wiring will offer better results I just might do it. 

Thoughts????
Thanks


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

The perceptive differences between using a sufficiently thick wire with a sufficiently powerful amp, vs. bi-wiring and bi-amping, is perceptively subtle, if not non-existent. A google search will reveal many opinions that support this, and a bit of measured scientific experimentation as well.

In other words, your time and money will be better spent elsewhere [/opinion].


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

I agree with Marshall.  Unless you have an unusually long distance between your amp and speakers or insufficiently sized cables/speaker wire I really doubt you would see/hear any benefits to bi-wiring.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I also agree with what has been said above. I have personally tried bi amping my speakers just to prove a point and it made absolutely no difference in the sound.


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## joonbug99 (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks for the info. I will follow the advice. No bi- wiring here. 

Thanks again.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

There's only one use for Bi-Wiring, and that's to get confused audiophiles to sit down and listen to your system with their preconceived biases not affecting what they think they hear.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

I have tried bi-wireing also and could not tell a difference. I would have to agree with the rest of the opionions here that it is a waste of time.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Bi wiring is a little tweak that all by it's self, may not make an immediate "audible" difference. I am a proponent of bi wiring in some cases, and believe that the aggregate effect of all the little differences tweaks like this can make actually sum to make an audible difference in the end. Everything makes a difference and all those little 1%'s add up. Sometimes they subtract, you have to be careful, not every tweak is a positive. :doh:

No need to buy into mega buck solutions. There are snake oil vendors that will happily charge hundreds or thousands of dollars for a few dollars worth of product. For instance, my subwoofers make my universal player skip. I tried moving my gear out of the offending room mode as much as I could, to no avail. I bought Vibropods for $24, problem solved. I could have spent much more on other isolation devices for the same net effect.

Spend money where it matters most first (speakers, room, electronics), then worry about the little things. Or don't. :T


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Could you provide a link for the "vibropods" you bought? I'm only getting results for Adult Toys, and not the Home Theater kind.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Lol. I bought mine from Music Direct when I made a few music purchases.

Get the ones that will support the weight of the equipment used, for best effect.


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## smurphy522 (Sep 21, 2010)

I am not a proponent of Bi-wiring; tried it and could not tell the difference in an A/B comparison. The only way it is effective if you use these cables to do the B-wiring. Thus you will need 2 pair of those babies. Thought is that after you lay out that much dollar you will surely hear some improvement - which may be nothing less than self supported to help explain your purchase.


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## Leon_Tyler (May 2, 2011)

Bi-wiring, as many of you have stated, is probably not worth doing. All you're doing is doubling the gauge of the wire to the speakers.

Bi-amping, on the other hand, can worthwhile, or at least cause some perceptible changes in the sound because you're using two different amplifier output sections. 

If you've got some spare amps lying around, it's worth a try. My favorite is to use tubes for the mid/tweeter section and solid state for the woofers...


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

If you use the proper gauge in the first place, then bi-wiring theoretically improves nothing. If you have any course in basic circuits, all bi-wiring does is change the location of the "short circuit" from behind the speaker to behind the amp... again, only effective if the gauge of one of those wire pairs isn't sufficient enough on its own. 
Now, bi-amping is completely different, in where you are using 2 of the amplifiers in your receiver to power 2 separate frequency ranges in the speaker, theoretically makes some sense, however, arguably, treble doesn't really require that much power in the first place. I bi-amped by towers, since I had the extra cable anyway.


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## hgoed (Mar 22, 2010)

Back in the day, I looked into bi-wiring, because if you do the math and focus only on the wire from the plug of the amp to the speaker, you can show a numerical difference in the end signal, mostly due to gauge, but also because of what you can do with the wires (more braiding, more solid wire that still bends, whatever...). Unfortunately, I spent more time crunching numbers than looking at the system as a whole. If you're going for best, you'd want to bi/multi-amp. 

If you want to bi-wire, and see any difference, you have to have some pretty inert wires (I have no interest in going into the wire debate, I've dedicated my enthusiasm elsewhere) or you're just doubling your risk of picking something up from a power line etc... 

Also, you have to be willing to accept the cosmetic effects of twice as many wires, which would beg the question of if you could tolerate expensive wires all over the place, why can't you tolerate an active crossover? 

Remember, once you open the amp and see where the wires lead, there will be a common, very narrow copper trace to whatever circuit is driving the speakers.


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

hgoed said:


> Remember, once you open the amp and see where the wires lead, there will be a common, very narrow copper trace to whatever circuit is driving the speakers.


Likewise inside the speaker/coil, etc... :clap:


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

smurphy522 said:


> I am not a proponent of Bi-wiring; tried it and could not tell the difference in an A/B comparison. The only way it is effective if you use these cables to do the B-wiring. Thus you will need 2 pair of those babies. Thought is that after you lay out that much dollar you will surely hear some improvement - which may be nothing less than self supported to help explain your purchase.


Try these and get back to me. :sn:


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

tesseract said:


> Try these and get back to me. :sn:


Hmmm.... Too many Buzz words and no scientific merit in their webpage so you will fogive me if I dont fork out mega bucks for little or no gain. :devil:


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## Theresa (Aug 23, 2010)

If you look at it electrically there is no advantage and its just a waste of cables. Active speakers are a different matter.


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

//end


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

robbo266317 said:


> Hmmm.... Too many Buzz words and no scientific merit in their webpage so you will fogive me if I dont fork out mega bucks for little or no gain. :devil:


I'll take any gain I can get, however small. :T 

The elimination of back EMF from the woofer to the tweeter has merit, and there is no reason it has to cost mega bucks. Any cable bi wired should do, and makes the cost of experimenting a moot point.

I just threw MIT out there to show smurphy522 another extreme. I actually have even more expensive MIT's than the ones I linked to (although I paid far less than the listed prices), so you can spend more if you like. Mine prevent all back EMF from returning to the amplifier, not just the tweeter/highs.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

joonbug99 said:


> I just received my KEF C series speakers. I have 2 C7's and 4 C3's. In any event. They have two sets of terminals and the Manual talks about bi-wiring or bi-amping.
> 
> I have never heard of either of these two things. I am not interested in bi-amping but if bi-wiring will offer better results I just might do it.
> 
> ...


You can ask around and get different opinions on the matter of bi wiring. You can also try it yourself at home and form your own opinion. In my personal experience, some speakers benefit, some do not. I have had instances where I thought bi wiring was harmful and I chose to run singles.

I've never understood the view from cable detractors that bi wiring is expensive. It certainly doesn't need to be. I mean, if you are using inexpensive cable in the first place... 

Here are some of the reasons why bi wiring may benefit you. http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Answr7.htm


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

guys... the "bi-wire" or the coupling plates create a short... the short is always between the amp and the speaker. ?????????????????


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## Superior Audio (Feb 27, 2008)

joonbug99 said:


> I just received my KEF C series speakers. I have 2 C7's and 4 C3's. In any event. They have two sets of terminals and the Manual talks about bi-wiring or bi-amping.
> 
> I have never heard of either of these two things. I am not interested in bi-amping but if bi-wiring will offer better results I just might do it.
> 
> ...


Bi-wiring=no improvement over placebo effect. 

Bi-amp=improvment beyond placebo effect.


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## hgoed (Mar 22, 2010)

Sorry to interject again, but I don't think some understand what bi-wiring is. 

A wire goes to a speaker terminal, which is just a piece of metal from the outside of a box to the inside. This then goes to a crossover. If the speaker is designed to filter the signal from mono-wire or bi-wire, the crossover will take one or both inputs to the capacitor or resistor or whatever, using the same thread of copper. 

Nothing changes other than the piece of metal that is attached from the amp to the speaker terminal(s). Two wires will be marginally (think graphing calculator kind of marginal) better based on impedence and the opportunity for twisting to cancel interference. You may have some other considerations if there is a particularly long run, but then you might want to re-arrange how your equipment is interconnected.

In reality, those who market this strategy are only looking for a way to differentiate themselves from someone with the same drivers, same crossover, same speaker dimensions, and only one terminal. 

I'm not one to recommend premium wires, but honestly, some premium cables have more science behind them.


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

tesseract said:


> I'll take any gain I can get, however small. :T
> 
> The elimination of back EMF from the woofer to the tweeter has merit.


I totally agree that any discernable improvement at a realistic cost should be sought. :T No arguments there!

I am interested in the how back EMF from the bass driver can be seen at the tweeter in either a standard single wired speaker OR a bi-wired system. Unless the crossover is poorly designed the signals should be isolated in either case. :scratch:


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## LCSeminole (Mar 28, 2010)

"Superposition Principle" anyone? Connecting a second pair of speaker wires to a speaker where both pairs of speaker wires are connected to the same amplifier changes nothing as opposed to just the one speaker connection with the jumper in place. Isn't this electrically equivalent? As a professor of physics in my college days once said to me in one of my senior level Physics classes, "Laws of Physics are just that, Laws, not hypothesis." Mathematically there is no getting around this, so I'm in the camp of "Bi-wiring is a marketing ploy". 

However, if you choose to bi-wire, and you think you hear a difference, then more power to you. This audio/video hobby of ours is all about enjoyment, so go for it and find out for yourself, or in this case your ears. My bachelors in Applied Mathematics and minor in Applied Physics tells me otherwise, for that matter so does my ears.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

hgoed said:


> In reality, those who market this strategy are only looking for a way to differentiate themselves from someone with the same drivers, same crossover, same speaker dimensions, and only one terminal.


Many highly regarded companies employ bi wire terminals. It is not a rare occurance.

I don't see Vandersteen as a company that needs to support bi wiring as a means to differentiate themselves from the rest of the market. Almost every aspect of their design does that on it's own.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

robbo266317 said:


> I totally agree that any discernable improvement at a realistic cost should be sought. :T No arguments there!
> 
> I am interested in the how back EMF from the bass driver can be seen at the tweeter in either a standard single wired speaker OR a bi-wired system. Unless the crossover is poorly designed the signals should be isolated in either case. :scratch:


Not exactly at the tweeter itself, but the signal to the tweeter. From the link I posted:

"_The benefits of bi-wiring are most obvious in the midrange and treble. The low-current signal to the midrange and tweeter drivers does not have to travel on the same wire as the high-current woofer signal. The field fluctuations and signal regeneration of the high-current low-frequencies are prevented from distorting or masking the low-current high-frequencies. The back EMF (Electro-Mechanical Force) from the large woofer cannot affect the small-signal upper frequencies since they do not share the same wires_."


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

There is room enough in this hobby for both views. I don't expect this thread to change anyone's mind that has already decided for himself. It isn't a night and day difference, it is subtle and not always an improvement. I do wish for those that are curious to try it at home and form their own opinions. :T 

Put in the change and live with it for awhile. Take it out and see what you think. This works for any change you might make to your system, not just cabling configurations.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Has anyone ever measured a difference? If, indeed, there is an effect, it should be relatively easy to identify a difference in the high frequency signals at the woofer terminals and the tweeter terminals. I differencial probe and a scope would make easy work of such a test.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

For those of us that haven't the means to measure, another method to try would be:

Wire both speakers to one channel. Ensure that the image is centered and sharp.

Then bi wire one speaker using identical wire.

Any difference will present itself as a change or shift in the image.

Credit goes to jneutron for this method.


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

just draw a circuit diagram. They are identical.


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## Superior Audio (Feb 27, 2008)

tesseract said:


> *Many highly regarded companies employ bi wire terminals*. It is not a rare occurance.


Correction...Many highly regarded companies employ bi AMP terminals. Not one company employs "bi wire terminals" tho they do suggest the use of bi AMP terminals can also be used to bi wire.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Superior Audio said:


> Correction...Many highly regarded companies employ bi AMP terminals. Not one company employs "bi wire terminals" tho they do suggest the use of bi AMP terminals can also be used to bi wire.


I stand corrected, proper term is "bi amp terminal". They can be used as such, but that may cause problems with mismatched volume levels between the highs and lows.

Many speaker manufacturers call them bi wire terminals, as that is the most common usage when all posts are employed.


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

tesseract said:


> For those of us that haven't the means to measure, another method to try would be:
> 
> Wire both speakers to one channel. Ensure that the image is centered and sharp.
> 
> ...


I like it! a testable and repeatable experiment... 
Firstly get someone to bi-wire one speaker only and mark your results without knowing which has been changed then get them to randomly swap which speaker is Bi-Wired, left, right, both or none and mark your results. (Of course in a double blind method so that there is no bias :devil


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Haha! I was waiting for someone to throw in DBT. You go first! :innocent:

More from the illustrious internet discussion cable guru, jneutron: "_If a difference is detected, biwire the second. The observed difference may actually go away. Such is localization and humans_" 

So true.


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

@ robbo : I like your sig ! :rofl:


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

"The benefits of bi-wiring are most obvious in the midrange and treble. The low-current signal to the midrange and tweeter drivers does not have to travel on the same wire as the high-current woofer signal. The field fluctuations and signal regeneration of the high-current low-frequencies are prevented from distorting or masking the low-current high-frequencies. The back EMF (Electro-Mechanical Force) from the large woofer cannot affect the small-signal upper frequencies since they do not share the same wires."

Ok, someone help me out here. How is the aforementioned accomplished by bi-wiring? How are the low current signals and the high current signals split just by bi-wiring?


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## caper26 (Sep 10, 2010)

nova said:


> How are the low current signals and the high current signals split just by bi-wiring?


They are not. They (signals) still travel on the same wire "up to a certain point" and then split... either in the wire itself (bi-wire, single amp), or at the binding straps (single wire, single amp): electronically equivalent. That statement is rubbish IMO, which may or may not mean anything to anyone, but I do have an engineering degree in computers, which is very similar to an electrical engineering degree as we took a lot of the same classes.
.
If one could prove that this "back EMF" or whatever,

actually exists, and, 
dissipates over a very short distance (before the wire "Y" junction)
then I might actually listen to the theory, but I still wouldn't waste the $$ on more wires since regardless if it were true, it likely makes inaudible changes... I say likely, since I didn't run any tests myself, because I have better things to spend my time on, like fishing!


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## b bos37 (May 30, 2011)

Bi wiring is only beneficial if your amp or receiver has separate amp section,if you are planing to bi wiring from a single speaker post it dose not make any difference.


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## joonbug99 (Feb 24, 2011)

I love the disscusion!!!!!!! thanks for all the input I have decided not to bi- wire My main reason is laziness!!!!! I didnt want to run 9 more lines for the speakers Also, I have owned a few sets of speakers in my life time and non have had the dual post set up and they sounded great hooked up the old fashioned way ( one speaker one wire ) i wont know what i'm missing and i'm ok with that 

Again thanks for the input and please continue the discussion


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

b bos37 said:


> Bi wiring is only beneficial if your amp or receiver has separate amp section,if you are planing to bi wiring from a single speaker post it dose not make any difference.


Bi-wiring is bi-wiring and, generally, not useful. If you are confusing it with bi-amping, that is a separate discussion.


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

tesseract said:


> Not exactly at the tweeter itself, but the signal to the tweeter. From the link I posted:
> 
> "_The benefits of bi-wiring are most obvious in the midrange and treble. The low-current signal to the midrange and tweeter drivers does not have to travel on the same wire as the high-current woofer signal. The field fluctuations and signal regeneration of the high-current low-frequencies are prevented from distorting or masking the low-current high-frequencies. The back EMF (Electro-Mechanical Force) from the large woofer cannot affect the small-signal upper frequencies since they do not share the same wires_."


Ok, maybe I'm just a little dense but, this sounds like bi-amp not bi-wire. :rubeyes:


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Nova, it's explained in the link I posted.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

caper26 said:


> They are not. They (signals) still travel on the same wire "up to a certain point" and then split... either in the wire itself (bi-wire, single amp), or at the binding straps (single wire, single amp): electronically equivalent. That statement is rubbish IMO, which may or may not mean anything to anyone, but I do have an engineering degree in computers, which is very similar to an electrical engineering degree as we took a lot of the same classes.
> .
> If one could prove that this "back EMF" or whatever, actually exists, and,


It exists.



> dissipates over a very short distance (before the wire "Y" junction)


Can't help you on that one. :huh:



> [/LIST]then I might actually listen to the theory, but I still wouldn't waste the $$ on more wires since regardless if it were true,


Why does it have to be expensive? How much are you spending on wire? :spend: 



> it likely makes inaudible changes... I say likely, since I didn't run any tests myself,


So you haven't even tried it? :blink:



> because I have better things to spend my time on, like fishing!


I DO need to get out more.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

joonbug99 said:


> I love the disscusion!!!!!!! thanks for all the input I have decided not to bi- wire My main reason is laziness!!!!! I didnt want to run 9 more lines for the speakers Also, I have owned a few sets of speakers in my life time and non have had the dual post set up and they sounded great hooked up the old fashioned way ( one speaker one wire ) i wont know what i'm missing and i'm ok with that
> 
> Again thanks for the input and please continue the discussion


You could try just the front left and right speakers. At the least, you would be eliminating that piece of brass between the posts.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

tesseract said:


> You could try just the front left and right speakers. At the least, you would be eliminating that piece of brass between the posts.


Do you really think that several feet of wire are superior to a heavy brass link of an inch or two?


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## Superior Audio (Feb 27, 2008)

b bos37 said:


> Bi wiring is only beneficial if your amp or receiver has separate amp section,if you are planing to bi wiring from a single speaker post it dose not make any difference.


What you describe is bi amping which is different from bi wiring that only provides perceived differences.


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Kal Rubinson said:


> Do you really think that several feet of wire are superior to a heavy brass link of an inch or two?


Good point. How about a few inches of those jumpers wires they sell? That will foil those dual binding posts! :gulp:


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

tesseract said:


> Good point. How about a few inches of those jumpers wires they sell? That will foil those dual binding posts! :gulp:


Works for me.


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

caper26 said:


> @ robbo : I like your sig ! :rofl:


Oh dear. Time to change my sig.............. :scratch: Give me a minute.... lddude:


OK, Done!


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

Kal Rubinson said:


> Works for me.


Actually, the drivers see wire whether they share the wire or not.


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

tesseract said:


> Actually, the drivers see wire whether they share the wire or not.


Are you going all quantum on us? :neener:


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## tesseract (Aug 9, 2010)

robbo266317 said:


> Are you going all quantum on us? :neener:


Ha! What the wires observe becomes their reality. :nerd:


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

tesseract said:


> Ha! What the wires observe becomes their reality. :nerd:


:rofl:
Sorry, just watching a show on time travel with narration by Stephen Hawkins....
Then I checked the forum....


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