# peerless nomex + vifa xt25 any ideas.



## steve1616

I have never built speakers before, and my mom wants speakers for her birthday present. I will try bookshelf speakers first, but may attempt a tower if the bookshelf goes well. The peerless nomex and vifa xt25 seem to be a decent match, but I haven't seen a lot of builds with this combination. I think the hardest part will be the crossover, but I wanted to see if it is a good idea to use the components that I have selected. 

Also, before I go crazy, are there any bookshelf speakers that I can buy as a finished product that will sound just as good or better for about the same money as what I am going to make? 

I almost forgot to add that the mid and tweeter are $50 a piece so I will have $100 in drivers per bookshelf, plus the cost of box materials and crossover.

Thanks


----------



## ISLAND1000

Post the make and model of the woofer.
The tweeter looks good. I've seen a project in Parts Express where it required some additional X-over circuitry to match with the woofer.


----------



## steve1616

The woofer model is Peerless 830875 6-1/2" Nomex Cone HDS Woofer. This seems to have the best frequency response of all the Peerless mids. Parts express does have a cheaper HDS woofer on buyout, but the nomex I listed seems better.


----------



## ISLAND1000

That combination should be excellent.


----------



## steve1616

Do you think that it will outperform anything near its price point that is already made by someone? Also, is there any program I can use that will help me with a crossover for this setup. I think I saw a program that will help me with box size. My plan was to build a 2 way bookshelf and possibly a 2.5 way tower since I will build a separate sub for my mom also.


----------



## domwilson

Have a look at the peerless build on the troelsgravesen website.


----------



## domwilson

Now that I've got five posts... http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Peerless_HDS830860.htm


----------



## steve1616

Thanks for the link. I was wanting to go with a 6.5" woofer, but that 5.25" driver in the build looks very capable. It almost looks like if I went with the 6.5" woofer that I could still use the crossover design since the 5.25" and 6.5" seem very close on sensitivity and frequency response. I would think that the 6.5" would be better for main bookshelf speaker since they should get the deep bass easier, but I am just guessing. I am a complete novice when it comes to this stuff.


----------



## ISLAND1000

steve1616 said:


> Do you think that it will outperform anything near its price point that is already made by someone?


Finding an excellent matching pair of drivers is a good start. It is only one part though. 
That project you referenced gives you an idea of how much design work and adjustment is necessary to obtain a finished and suitable project if you want it to perform as well as a factory built speaker.
Your woofer requires a 1/2 cubic foot box to start with but you have to determine what shape you want the box to be.
I'm designing a similar project using the Peerless 830874 woofer and a Seas 27TDF tweeter. My box has a trapezoid shaped speaker baffle to minimize the amount of baffle material surrounding the tweeter. It's my belief that a small baffle surrounding the tweeter creates/adds the "space" or "air" in reproducing high frequencies. It can also create a realistic "soundstage" with the appropriate X-over circuit.
There are several places where you can access X-over design circuits on the internet. Just Google X-over design programs. They will have a good place to start.


----------



## steve1616

Is it worth it to buy the LEAP program that madisound recommends? Madisound seems to have the cheapest prices on the drivers that I want.


----------



## domwilson

If you want to do towers... http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Peerless_HDS830875.htm


----------



## domwilson

And this one.. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/HDS164.htm


----------



## bambino

steve1616 said:


> Is it worth it to buy the LEAP program that madisound recommends? Madisound seems to have the cheapest prices on the drivers that I want.


If you buy the drivers from Madisound they will design a crossover for you so there wouldn't be a need to buy a program.
I do think though that if your talking about spending $200+ on drivers and parts plus you should add in materials and your time (if that counts to you) then you could find just as capable of speakers at or around the same price, maybe less.:T


----------



## steve1616

Do you have any speakers in mind that would be just as capable? Also, domwilson, thank you very much for the links. I could just change my tweeter to the scanspeek and copy the build of the towers on one of the links. I like the price better on the XT25, but all the legwork is done already. I can just copy the cabinet design and crossover design. I want the towers to match the drivers in the bookshelf speakers so I need to find a bookshelf with the nomex woofer and the scanspeak tweeter.


----------



## bambino

steve1616 said:


> Do you have any speakers in mind that would be just as capable? Also, domwilson, thank you very much for the links. I could just change my tweeter to the scanspeek and copy the build of the towers on one of the links. I like the price better on the XT25, but all the legwork is done already. I can just copy the cabinet design and crossover design. I want the towers to match the drivers in the bookshelf speakers so I need to find a bookshelf with the nomex woofer and the scanspeak tweeter.


Parts express has the Peerless HDS 831735 on sale for $30 FYI. As far as capable speakers at lets just say the $300 it will cost you to build you could look at the clearance section of Audio Advisor or one of the other many online sale sites out there AC4less comes to mind.:T


----------



## domwilson

bambino said:


> Parts express has the Peerless HDS 831735 on sale for $30 FYI. As far as capable speakers at lets just say the $300 it will cost you to build you could look at the clearance section of Audio Advisor or one of the other many online sale sites out there AC4less comes to mind.:T


What's AC4less?


----------



## bambino

domwilson said:


> What's AC4less?


Sorry, it's short for Accessories4less .com. It's also another great place to shop for audio gear online.:T


----------



## steve1616

I will check out those sites. I did see the sale that is on the HDS 831735, but I was concerned about the low sensitivity, and I couldn't find but one build that included them. Isn't it hard to try to mate a low sensitivity mid with a higher sensitivity tweeter? The nomex gets very good reviews and I figured that I would spend the extra $14 to get something I would feel comfortable with. The XT25 seems like a great tweeter at a great price. Is the scanspeak 2608 a better tweeter than the XT25?


----------



## bambino

If i'm not mistaken using the proper resistor in the crossover path would take care of any sensitivity issues.


----------



## domwilson

steve1616 said:


> I will check out those sites. I did see the sale that is on the HDS 831735, but I was concerned about the low sensitivity, and I couldn't find but one build that included them. Isn't it hard to try to mate a low sensitivity mid with a higher sensitivity tweeter? The nomex gets very good reviews and I figured that I would spend the extra $14 to get something I would feel comfortable with. The XT25 seems like a great tweeter at a great price. Is the scanspeak 2608 a better tweeter than the XT25?


From what I've been reading, the XT25 is a great tweeter.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/


----------



## steve1616

I think the resistor lowers the sensitivity of the highest sensitivity driver which would effectively lower the sensitivity of the entire speaker, and require more power. Is this correct?


----------



## steve1616

I am thinking that I should build something with the XT25 just because of the value if I do build something. The scanspeak 2608 is almost twice the price. I do like the build that included the SS 2608. Maybe madisound could make me a crossover for the same build except using the XT25 tweeter instead. I don't mind putting the crossover together as long as I can get a schematic.


----------



## domwilson

You could use the crossover on that page as a starting point and tweak it as needed.


----------



## steve1616

Would that crossover even be close since the sensitivities are quite a bit different on the XT25 tweeter?


----------



## domwilson

I was looking at the crossover here http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/HDS164.htm


----------



## steve1616

Oh, I see. I just noticed that the guy thought you could exchange the old woofers for the new style just like a want. I am assuming I can use the build (box) dimensions from this link http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Peerless_HDS830875.htm 

It would be very costly but I wonder how a 2.5 way design with 4 of the nomex woofers would work. That would almost function as a true full range speaker. Maybe at that point it would just be better to go with a 3 way design. I really am starting to think that the nomex woofer + XT25 is just a pretty solid combo that I could use for either a bookshelf or a tower. I am half tempted to downsize the woofer to 5-1/4" so I could just copy this link http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Peerless_HDS830860.htm. Do the guys in these builds just use a program to come up with a baseline for crossovers?


----------



## domwilson

I think they may use it as a starting point. But many do the tweaking by trial and error. Do a search on the internet. You'll find many good free softwares. WinISD and boxplot are a couple. 
WinISD is here... http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd


----------



## domwilson

http://www.audiogrid.com/audio/

http://www.speakerworkshop.com/


----------



## steve1616

thank you very much for the links. I will give these a try.


----------



## ISLAND1000

All the component parts of a X-over can be used in several configurations. Resistors are not only for matching sensitivity but also in zobel networks, notch filters, contour network, baffle step compensation, etc. It can get really complicated trying to make those last small but important adjustments to the entire speaker system.


----------



## steve1616

I am really hoping I can find a profession bookshelf build with the exact woofer and tweeter that I want to use. I would really love to stay with a 6.5" woofer, otherwise I would just copy the build that had a 5.25" woofer and XT25 tweeter. I do think that if I can learn more about crossovers that I can do this project. If I can build race engines, learn heavy industrial electrician work, diagnose complicated vehicle problems, etc, then I should be able to figure out how to do a crossover. The only problem is I just don't have that urge to learn everything like I did when I was younger. I am going to give this a try. I am having trouble with the free programs just because they have all lengths and volumes measured in metric system, and since America is weird, I am used to the standard system. I have to convert every measurement just so I can visualize it.


----------



## 1Michael

You have not told us how much cash you will spend.
How big of a box can she handle.
What amplifier will be used, with specifications.
What are the goals of this project. Etc etc etc. 

No suggestions are useful without these questions being answered first. It is putting the cart before the horse. Arbitrarily picking some cool looking drivers because we think they measure well is not the best way to pick a project.

I think the hardest part will be the crossover,
That would be an understatement... https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy-faqs-provendesigns

Do you have any speakers in mind that would be just as capable?
Yes Many http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=211558&AID=1482282&PID=2777698


----------



## steve1616

I want to spend around $1000 for the total set of speakers. I am not sure, but I thought it would be best to stick with some high quality bookshelf speakers, and then a subwoofer for the low bass. I was thinking that I could spend about $750 on the 5 bookshelf speakers and $250 on the subwoofer. I would build a set of towers up front if it would stay within the budget. My mom would rather have good sound quality over high spl any day, and bookshelfs seem like a good idea for that. 

I am going to check my moms amplifier today. She has a Marantz 4100 quadraradial, and I have read great things about it, but it seems like a piece of junk to me. Her Marantz buzzes, and just seems terrible, so I am planning on spending around $350 on a receiver. This puts the total home theater budget at $1350. I can go a little more if it really upped the value, but really want to stay in this range. I was probably going to build the sub myself, also. 

As far as box sizes, I think she is fairly flexible, but she doesn't want anything as wide as my front mains. My front mains are 15" wide, 15" deep, and 40" tall. I will look over the links that you supplied me. Thank you very much for the help, and please give me suggestions if any of this post helps give an idea what I am looking for. 

I almost forgot to say that I was thinking that something like this receiver would fit the bill. http://www.onecall.com/product/Onkyo/TX-SR608/Receiver/_/R-103930

I have seen this receiver go as low as $310 on certain websites. Does this seem to be a decent platform? 

Thanks


----------



## 1Michael

I Think that you could build the Modula MTM with the RS Dayton Tweeter for the mains, http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11321 and Modula MT for the surrounds and stay within budget because you are building the boxes. I have the MTM for my mains (sitting on top of dual 15" bass bins in my avatar) and I can tell you that they are very accurate and refined speakers. If the bookshelf mains would require stands, why not just extend the bookshelf speaker box to the floor to make a tower? Plus you could port them to give a little bit lower tuning. The only issue is you would need to get a 4 Ohm stable receiver.
The subwoofer is easy. Probably something small and sealed would be just fine for her.

Here are some other great designers http://speakerdesignworks.com/index_page_2.html
Zaph http://www.zaphaudio.com/
http://clearwaveloudspeaker.com/
http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39
What do you think?


----------



## steve1616

I would love to build the Modula MTM's for the mains, but they are way out of my budget. It costs $415 just for one speaker. This is just the 2 mids, 1 tweeter, and the crossover. The crossover costs almost 3 times what the drivers do. I can build the tower version for about the same price, but it is way too high. I would have over $1300 just for the front 3. 

I have actually been very unsatisfied with what some of these good designers are doing. They say that it is very important to match drivers so that crossovers can be less complex which is always better, but half of the the speaker builds start off with the line "I decided to build a speaker with these drivers because these drivers have been on my shelf for 2 years." I have noticed that Zaph audio and Curt Campbell designs seem to integrate drivers that are meant to be together. 

The biggest problem I am seeing is that I am paying a markup on every single part. You can buy these same drivers for 1/3 price if you buy 50 at a time. There are a few designs that seem to be very worthy of the cost. For some reason, the Statements from Curt Campbell designs really stands out to me as a good price for what the performance is. The Modula MTM's stand out also. These are great designs for not a huge price. It seems like subwoofers have more markup than regular speakers. I can build a sub very cheap, but speakers can get right up there to where the manufacturer can make the same speaker for the same price you can build it. Is it just me, or are subwoofers where you save some money? 

All of these designs are very cost effective compared to a high end retail store, but not such a great deal compared to some internet direct companies. I was trying to build a speaker very similar to the SVS SBS-02's. It actually costs more to make my own version. I am almost certain that there are only a handful of DIY projects that are just great performance per dollar compared to some internet direct companies. 

I think it is similar to what I use to do on cars. I have a mechanic shop and I got all the parts to build a race engine for half the price of what normal customers get. I could build an engine and sell it for less than most people could build it themselves for just because they paid a markup on every part and I got every part for half price or under.


----------



## domwilson

These have gotten pretty good reviews and they are in your price range... http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-702


----------



## 1Michael

The TriTrix can not be beat for price to performance ratio. As a matter of fact I will be building that very speaker in a sealed box within a couple weeks...

PS check out the NatP, it is the Modulas less expensive brother and I have these in my living room as well...


----------



## steve1616

I really like the Triune 07, but they are of course 4 ohms speakers. The Triune has quite a bit better frequency response graph than the TriTrix. I have been looking at the NatP for a few days. I was almost thinking of building the NatP's for the front stage, and then building the TriTrix Monitor's for the surround sound. 

How much does frequency response curves matter. The only reason I ask is because I really want to build the NatP for its ability to get a little better bass response, but I keep going back to how flat the frequency response is on the SVS SBS-02's. Do you guys think the NatP would beat the SVS SBS or SCS on performance?


----------



## 1Michael

You need to compare apples to apples, MTM to MTM with similar drivers. But the NatP will kick its hiney...


----------



## steve1616

I was comparing price ranges. I can build some NatP's really close to the same price I can buy the SBS's for. One thing that is very disappointing is that most of the budget speakers like the NatP's were built with dayton drivers because dayton is good and they are cheap also, but I have noticed that dayton wants just as much for their drivers as peerless, vifa, etc. Why has dayton gone up in price so much?


----------



## domwilson

I would think because they are getting more respect in the DIY community. Plus manufacturing costs, etc. It's that ol' supply and demand...


----------



## steve1616

Do you think Dayton mids are just as good as peerless?


----------



## domwilson

Depends on the model and the price point. You can look here http://www.zaphaudio.com/ for some guidance. What might look good on paper may not suit you or your tastes. Speakers are a personal thing. What may sound good to one person may sound like mud to another. One thing I would suggest is to take your mother out to audition some speakers and get a feel of what type of sound she might like. I've heard manufactured speakers that had the same/close specs and response graphs but had different sound character. Since she is the one that will be listening to them the most, it would probably be a good idea to see what she likes best. But I think the drivers you have are a very good starting point. Tweak them the way you like. Gain some knowledge and experience. Then your next set will be even better. Speakers may be linear but human hearing isn't. Sound interpretations aren't the same either. I have speakers that I used to boost the bass and/or treble up on when I was younger. Now I'm listening to them with the same music, same equipment. But now I prefer a flat setting. Am I getting old? Probably or my tastes in sound has changed.


----------



## steve1616

That is funny what you said about how you liked your music when you were younger. I was the same exact way. When I was younger, I liked the bass and treble both turned up. Now I prefer a 1 decibal decrease in the treble from flat and a 1 decibal increase in bass. Too much treble just gives me headaches now. Also, when I was younger I could pick out differences in speakers easier. My hearing isn't near as good so it takes some time for me to really pick out subtle differences. 

From Zaph's audio, it looks like the peerless 830875 is better than the Dayton RS180. Dayton was rated high because it was decent performance for cheap price, but I can buy the Peerless for the same price now. I guess it really doesn't matter, I like this build http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Peerless_HDS830875.htm
but there are no builds to give me a matching center channel so that is out. The Natalie P's seem to be the way to go. I might start a new thread about them because I have seen pictures of the Natalie P's with a bigger tower configuration, but I cant' find if they had to change the crossover to accomadate the volume change.


----------



## ISLAND1000

What did you see on Zaph's that makes the Peerless better than the Dayton?


----------



## steve1616

I went back and looked, and I must have misread his comment. It looks to me like the peerless is on a pretty even playing field with the Peerless. In fact, from his comments, maybe the Dayton is a touch better. It is hard to tell because he might be rating the dayton driver better because of its low cost also. I think that the Dayton looks like a great driver. Also, it is very aesthetically pleasing. I wish I would have ordered the RS180 before the 28th. It was on sale at parts express for $30.


----------



## steve1616

I forgot to add that the peerless on Zaph's website is suppose to be similar to the Nomex woofer, but the Nomex woofer is suppose to have a little less distortion. All in all, it still looks like the Dayton woofer is just as good as long as it is crossed over apropriately.


----------



## ISLAND1000

I chose Peerless because of 1) frequency response, 2) Harmonic distortion, 3) CSD plot, 4) $
Although the exact Peerless I purchased from Parts Express (model 830874) was not the unit tested by Zaph, the series has much in common in terms of suspension, magnet, frame, voice coil etc. The technical data is available from the Tymphany/Peerless website.
I think in a side by side comparison the Peerless would have the advantage on distortion over Dayton.


----------



## steve1616

I have looked at various speaker builds and the peerless woofer on Zaph's website seems to be not quite as good as the 830874, or the 830875. I have looked at the Troels graveson build with the Peerless 830875, and it looks superior on the frequency response compared to almost any build I have seen. He even comments on how the 830875 impressed him very much compared to what he had come to expect from the peerless woofers.


----------



## critofur

Also check out the Elsinore speaker.


----------

