# Css trio 12 loaded horn



## kadijk

Was just perusing the CSS web site and noticed a loaded horn kit involving the trio 12 sub driver. Does anyone have any insights or experience with this design? It looks very impressive on paper as far as FR and SPL are concerned...I'm suddenly very interested. One concern is placement. The most practical place for a box that size is in a corner, but I'm worried about the purported corner problems. Or does a loaded horn design behave differently than a normal vented design?


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## kadijk

To add to my question...could one place this sub in an adjacent room (ie storage room) and have the "horn" flush mounted in the wall? Would that non baffle step arrangement be detrimental to the bass freq?


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## Mike P.

The designer of the horn can answer your questions. Send him a PM.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/private.php?do=newpm&u=39403


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## Oscillate

kadijk... there is also a thread on another forum where I recently posted a question
to Mark that was quickly answered.

This CSS Trio12 horn seems like really good design! At first the sheer size of the
cabinet seemed too large ...but after adding together the combined volume of the
multiple vented subwoofers cabinets required to achieve the same results it seemed
quite reasonable. Plus the costs of multiple drivers and the higher powered amps they
require versus a single CSS Trio12 and a decent 250W amplifier ...well, this seems like
a winner! I sincerely feel that after a few of us build and post reviews on this horn, that
interst in building it will increase dramatically.


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## ironglen

Oscillate said:


> kadijk... there is also a thread on another forum where I recently posted a question
> to Mark that was quickly answered.
> 
> This CSS Trio12 horn seems like really good design! At first the sheer size of the
> cabinet seemed too large ...but after adding together the combined volume of the
> multiple vented subwoofers cabinets required to achieve the same results it seemed
> quite reasonable. Plus the costs of multiple drivers and the higher powered amps they
> require versus a single CSS Trio12 and a decent 250W amplifier ...well, this seems like
> a winner! I sincerely feel that after a few of us build and post reviews on this horn, that
> interst in building it will increase dramatically.


I have one of the Anarchy TH with a 115w amp with very little gain and it sounds very good in my garage crossed over at 85hz to a couple bookshelves. I had to turn the gain down to blend nicely, and l like my bass! It looks to be a very good design for those handy with wood and needing good low end output for low total cost. If you can 'hide' it, it becomes even easier and cost effective, not needing finishing.


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## mwmkravchenko

Man.

Enough to make a guy blush.

Kadijk you are going to have some fun*.

*This really is one of the most butt kicking subs I have ever played with. The only thing that came close was a five fifteen inch monkey coffin I built years ago tuned to nine hertz. But the trio 12 horn sounds cleaner.

The only caveat I repeat over and over.

This sub produces prodigious amounts of very clean bass. If you like the boom boom boom you may find this a bit different. It produces clean bass that will blow you away if it is there in the recording. Not that many recordings have a great deal of real low bass. It is more often that loud midbass is confused with loud low bass. Once you have heard the real thing you never want to go back!

Mark


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## kadijk

I think I'm "in" if the bass is deep, relatively powerful, and distortion free. If this type of design gets me that relatively economically, then it meets my home theater philosophy..."really good for as little dollars as possible"

So to get the questions on the table...
1. is this sub appropriate for corner placement, or is it subject to the same corner loading problems that we try to avoid with most other subs? Or does the loaded horn design behave differently in a corner than others? Or does it need the corner in some way? The cabinet is big and corner placement is most practical as far as room space use issues go.

2. could one place this in an adjacent room and have the horn opening flush to the wall facing into my theater and simply have it appear as a cloth grill on the wall?Or does the lack of baffle step create problems with the sound or frequency response or SPL? Is no baffle step a negative factor?

3. this one is tricky...the design and performance of the sub you built and sell plans for is carefully planned out. Could the same results be achieved with a footprint of 20x24 rather than 16x32? In my case 20x24 works better aesthetically, and so its where I would lean. I am not asking you to conflict yourself and the relationship you have with CSS...rather is there a way to design a cabinet that could achieve what yours does, or is there a direct link between the size you chose and the results you have? This question assumes that corner placement is okay, because 20x24 is what fits my corner. 16x32 might actually work lying on its side under my screen and holding my center channel(assuming I can find good feet for my center so it doesn't rattle to death)

Thanks so much for your help in this


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## mwmkravchenko

Answers...

1. Yes corner loading will increase the output and not the boom. With a horn or any speaker for that matter more reflective surfaces add to the sound that you get to hear. As in the greater amount of areas that can bounce the sound back to you the more sound you get to hear.

The difference between this subwoofer and most others is that the response is quite even with a corner placement. Many subwoofers get designed in such a manner that they grossly exagerate the bass when placed in a corner.

2. Absolutely. The only thing that must be in the listening room is the mouth exit and you.
Baffle step on such an enclosure is not a factor. 

3. Dream on my friend. The sizing is such that you get the maximum use of your materials. A cabinet maker I am I am. I hates waste!

a re-design is not a trivial task. You could do it and I'll tell you how.

Each point in the design has a surface area. If you calculate it out you can resize the design by manipulating the height/width ratios while still respecting the length and fold. But be warned it is not as easy as it looks. Nor is it impossible. This fold took me seven attempts before I maximized the horn and minimized the wasted space.

If you buy Bob's kit you get a full 3D sketchup rendering done by Dan Finley (NeoDan). All the sizing is available within that model.

Mark


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## kadijk

Thanks Mark. This is very interesting, and little spoken of it seems. Or at least I haven't noticed much discussion on this topic. 

The horn path is long and so is there a need for some sort of delay or timing set up? Or is it a non factor? I do use odyssey and I think it has some delay compensation as part of its eq process, or is it more complicated than that?


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## Cyberfloatie

I've been drooling over these plans for a few months now and am wish I was in a position to build them myself. The way I see it, the worst case is that I hate it and have a Trio12 left over to put into something else. From everything I've seen on the Internets about this kit, that's not a likely scenario.

For now, I must live vicariously through you. Go for it and keep us posted here on how its going and how it turns out!


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## mwmkravchenko

Hello Guys.

Here are some more things to compare.









So here is a simulated group delay for the same driver in two enclosures. One vented and one horn loaded.

Initial impressions will be that the group delay is much worse. Upon a bit of thinking it will be a little different. The difference is about 40 thousands of a second worst case. Second thing the delay on the horn is more even over frequency. Not just a peak that could potentially become annoying.

Third thing is that this level of group delay in reality is next to inaudible in normal conditions. Under very controlled conditions it could be discerned, but not guaranteed to bother you.

In short if you can hear the difference your pretty special.

Will delay on your receiver help? Nope. Play with it but I'd be willing to bet that you will never hear a difference one way or the other.

Horn path is only 23 feet LOL! Sound travels at 340 meters/second. So about 8 meters in length 0.023 seconds of travel worst case scenario. Group delay through the vented box where the port is doing most of the work is actually very close.

The difference is striking when you consider what is actually going on inside the horn.

Matching output to output a Trio12 horn loaded will be eight times more efficient than the vented version. That means one eighth the excursion so a start and a stop is actually quicker in the horn than in the vented cabinet. It also means that there is considerably less distortion on the horns output compared to the vented boxes output. Usually 4 times less. Sometimes even greater reduction in distortion. It really depends on the bass content of what you are listening to. Some of the spookiest stuff is comes from the few pipeorgan recordings that actually plumb the true low end. With this horn you can follow notes being played as low as the instrument will play in real life. I have never been able to do that with normal subwoofers. One twelve will not do that under any circumstance I have ever heard. You need to move four liters of air to hear 16 hertz in a normal size living room. 

Mark


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## kadijk

It gets more awesome the more I learn. And...I'm a half deaf carpenter so I don't think I'll hear the delay, if you can even call it that. I'll be ordering the CSS kit soon, and because corner placement is good I'll be able to build it according to those plans. Construction will probably not start until the new year. One concern I have, if it's even a concern is that this deep clean punchy bass will not suit the movie LFE that is 90% of what I'll be using the sub for. And I only think that because of the lack of, in my opinion, discussion on these horns in the DIY forum. It's way more common to build a ported sono sub. And I'm not sure why that is.


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## mwmkravchenko

I demonstrated this sub at the first DIY Ottawa show. I put iion some music for test purposes. But there's a gentleman who was there by the name of Adam. (Binary) He threw on some music (I mean rapp) that he thought would be a good test. I'll see if he will make a comment.

I technical terms it is this simple. The sub reproduces what ever you send it's way very loud with very low levels of distortion. There really is no such thing as a rock speaker or a home theater speaker. There are accurate speakers and not no accurate speakers.

Mark


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## ironglen

kadijk said:


> One concern I have, if it's even a concern is that this deep clean punchy bass will not suit the movie LFE that is 90% of what I'll be using the sub for. And I only think that because of the lack of, in my opinion, discussion on these horns in the DIY forum. It's way more common to build a ported sono sub. And I'm not sure why that is.


You'll be fine. My little 6.5" driver horn fills my garage with sound nicely, and it wasn't optimized for output like Mark's Trio horn. Just be sure to use a high pass filter so you can drive it to potential. The LLT sonosubs are very light in weight, for a large 15" or 18" driver cab, and the footprint is very small for the displacement and low end achieved.

The horn concept is just now getting attention here mostly because designs are limited by the available ones by Mark and Mike (and BFM, that I know of). The cabinet design is critical, unlike typical ported designs which are quite forgiving. The other potential limiter is cabinet shape is limited to the original dimensions (without elaborate redesign), and I think many members have specific needs in that regard.


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## Binary

My ears were ringing, Someone called me out...

The trio12 Front loaded horn was, to put this simply, a showstopper. Litterally. I put on a single track, and it took less than 30 seconds to clear the old fuddy duddys from the room. They actually came back a within the next few minutes to ask me to turn it down or stop. We only had 65 watts...
Side note: I think if you think its too loud, You're too old.
The sub wanted more, but the building was complaining. (wooden floors were oscillating just a tiny bit and the windows were creaking slightly. lol) We did have a bigger amp, but concluded that with 65w, we were more than happy. (my bets are on the fact that the older guys couldn't handle it being any louder. lol)

For comparisons sake, I have a rather large subwoofer at home. A ~14 Cubic foot internal cabinet tuned for ~15-16hz with an SDX 15 in it. The Trio12 was getting similar output to my SDX15, but with less than 1/10th the power. I run a QSC RMX2450 In bridged mono on the 4 ohm load of the sdx 15, 2400W and i have clipped the amp while listening to the subwoofer.
Something has to be said about the CSS Drivers, The Build quality on them is AMAZING.

I am trading *up* from my SDX 15 in LLT, to two horn loaded dual 8" enclosures using some Trio8 Drivers.
I expect to gain 6db at 25hz as compared to my SDX 15. There really is something to horn loading.
If this doesn't say it all, then i don't know what does.

The only downside to a horn is that they don't overexaggerate their presence unless called upon by the music/movies, Unless you want to purposely run them hot, they blend into the background quite seamlessly. Most people would consider this a plus, but some people are bass-heads like myself.


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## mose

Hi all,

I've been lurking on this site for years. Watching and waiting for a HT/music sub build that perfectly matched my goals. When I saw the TRIO12 Horn, it looked perfect. After a brief discussion with Bob at CSS, I ordered the kit, built it, and recently got it installed. I've now put a few hours on it and it's exceeding my expectations.

I'm not an audiophile, don't have any microphone/tuning equipment, and don't have anything else to compare this sub with. (My existing sub was a 10" NHT.) That's why a pre-designed 'kit' was so appealing to me. I bought a 300W O-audio Bash to drive it. Any boy does it!

As I mentioned, I don't have much to compare this with. But everyone who hears it gets a big grin on their face and says something like, "I've never heard anything like that." As others have mentioned, it's not like a car with a pair of 12's and 1000 watts that booms. It shakes and moves you. Very low, very clear.

The 'kit' is very nicely put together; it has excellent detail and great pictures and lot's of tips and suggestions. I'll try to get some pictures up soon.

...mose


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## kadijk

Hi Mose, thanks for your comments. I would love to see some pictures. Maybe you could start a thread documenting your build and installation...I can't wait to start my build of this unit! My wife even gave me the "I think you should do it" comment the other day, so it's just a matter of timing and time. It's great that the sub is performing like or better than you expected too. You'd hate to do all that work and end up with questionable results.


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## Mike P.

> You'd hate to do all that work and end up with questionable results.


And that is something you don't have to worry about as this sub was designed by Mark, the man knows his stuff! :T


​


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## kadijk

Yes. I'm very impressed. What shocked me is the 7/16 osb construction. And yet it works! I can't do it...I'll have to use 1/2 mdf. I work with osb all day and I can't build a speaker out of it.


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## mose

I was a little hesitant about the OSB as well. The plan is designed around 1/2". I looked into different materials and settled on 5/8" OSB (actually 15mm). With the excessive bracing in the plan, I think this is overkill and the 1/2" OSB would have been fine. I think it's a great compromise if you are hesitant. 

But I didn't care about weight (or so I thought). I also didn't care how it looked since I put it in the attic. And since it was in the attic, OSB seemed like a better choice since it uses exterior glue. MDF would be too succeptible to moisture in the Pacific Northwest. Saved me painting it. And OSB was about half the cost. 

It was also kinda nice to work with the OSB since MDF creates such terrible dust.

...mose


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## mose

OK.

I got some pictures in a separate thread:

Build Thread

...mose


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## mwmkravchenko

Mose had a ten inch NHT sub before.

I'm guessing that there is just a bit of difference in available output.

I have built speakers professionally since 1989. This is by far the baddest sub I have ever built. It even bests a five fifteen LLT I built in the mid 90's. 

One thing that is cool is that the cabinet itself does not really vibrate that much. I'm hoping that you have the same experience Mose. It would certainly be a pain if your ceiling was constantly rattling.

Mark


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## mose

I was initially worried about how to mount it without causing the ceiling to rattle. I considered hanging it from the top chords of the trusses and building a port gasket out of innner-tube. But after I tested it for a while on the wood floor of the living room, I realized that it hardly moved. 

In the attic, I just ran a 3/4" wide strip of foam weatherstripping around the mouth I framed in the ceiling as well as along the truss spans that it crosses. I ran it for a few days before I got around to screwing down a few 'L' brackets to keep it in place. It hadn't moved at all.

...mose


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## kadijk

That's interesting. Part of my initial idea was to "hide" a sub like this by making it function as a bluray shelf as well. I'm starting to consider that again based on what you've said about the cabinet not vibrating. I would simply attach a shelving unit (self made) to the side and paint it all the same color so it looks like one unit. Maybe small lips on the shelves so nothing falls off in the heat of the battle, so to speak.


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## Binary

If anyone has seen the pictures from the DIY GTG in ottawa last january, then you'd see that i'm the guy who decided that the subwoofer looked like a great place to take a nap. In fact, you can barely feel any vibration when laying on top of it while its in use, A properly braced box shouldnt vibrate heavily. ever.


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## Cyberfloatie

Binary said:


> If anyone has seen the pictures from the DIY GTG in ottawa last january, then you'd see that i'm the guy who decided that the subwoofer looked like a great place to take a nap. In fact, you can barely feel any vibration when laying on top of it while its in use, A properly braced box shouldnt vibrate heavily. ever.


I think this may be the photo to which you are referring:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ns/48520-css-trio12-bass-horn.html#post451733


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## Binary

Oh no! You found me! Lol. Yep that's the one.


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## kadijk

Just having fun with my new found skill: picture insertion and url linking. I have started a build thread now that I'm almost finished ( who's got time while there's work to do?). It is http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...truction/52133-rabbit-hole-build-journal.html and includes a plan of the room and location of the planned Trio12 horn loaded subwoofer. Mark advised earlier that loaded horns like corners, in fact use corners to their advantage. That's handy since a cabinet like that really only fits in corners in most theaters. I would naturally want to face the horn opening towards the seats as if coming from the front. Does that make sense, or should I think about facing it sideways? Remember that my sealed 10" subs will move to the front eventually and face the seats as well. I want to avoid creating a suck out problem, and I already have some wierd nulls and peaks because of the room dimensions( I think). When I first set up the equipment in the room I had the 2 10" subs on the side wall mid points facing towards each other, and there was basically no bass in the room ( and lots on the other side of the basement 30 feet away!) 

Thanks for your interest and comments...

Quick side question...how do I make my url link into a word like " here " or " there"?:help:


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## mwmkravchenko

Before you get all set on where your subs go you are going to have to move them around to find their happy places. The horn will behave a bit better as it tends to load a room in a much different manner. It's hard to explain just that it seems to fill up a room in a way that is really hard to duplicate with little boxes.

As for your needing the ten inch subs and the TRIO12 horn you will find out. I'm thinking that your puny little tens will run for cover when you fire up the big boy!

Loading the room from the location you posted in your other thread can give you a number of possibilities. Mouth close to concrete floor is probably the best. But don't be scared to turn the mouth towards the corner and pull it away from the wall in inch increments and listen like that. You can tailor the sound to a degree by the location of the mouth of the horn to the closest boundaries.

Mark


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## kadijk

That's very interesting...I didn't think that one could face the horn into the corner. Tuning and placing this sounds like an excuse to spend time fooling around in my theater. Shucks.


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## mwmkravchenko

Who needs excuses, your experimenting!


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## Oscillate

Mark ...which (rack mount) power amplifier would you suggest for the Trio12 horn?

"The Fs is at 18 hz and the F3 is 16 hz." & "Hornresp gives peaking at 200 watts and 125 db..."

Obviously nothing with a built-in low frequency boost / LT circut. Also wondering at
what Hz most power amplifiers set their high-pass filter? Would something like these
two be apprpriate?

Behringer NU1000
Crown XLS 1000


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## mwmkravchenko

This is a bit on the picky side but I'll say it anyway.

Neither of these has any great sound quality.

But for low end use they will be able to pour in the power.

Most amps have an F3 or the point where they drop to half power (-3db) lower than you will find on almost any recording. So that is generally not an issue.

Anything with a low end boost can possibly cause you problems. I say possibly because it depends on the boost level. A horn does not like being driven lower than it is designed for. But this horn is very happy very low. So with some care you could get away with some low end EQ if you ever felt the need. Beats me when you could use it. 

Mark

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

View attachment 33889
I have been asked a few times what this sub will do with one hundred watts.

Here is a nice graph for you guys to look at. The bottom line is one watt the top one is one hundred watts. It is calculated with the mouth close to a corner. In hornresp I consider the 1Pi setting to be closest to a real life corner in most homes. Unless you are in a basement where you can strap on an extra 3 db on the figures.









The graph below is the same driver in a conventional sealed box tuned to 16 hz fed one hundred watts.

View attachment 33889


Just a little bit of difference. By the way every ten db difference means it sounds twice as loud as the level ten db below.

Mark


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## mwmkravchenko

The other question I get most is what about the roller coaster response on the low end?

I hate to be the guy to tell you but the nice graphs that your favorite software shows you on the screen is not what you listen to in your room. The horns are actually flatter in room than almost all conventional sub boxes. The ripple shown is real and there in use. But it is actually not very large peak to peak. Plus or minus 2 db most of the time. In terms of actual audibility it is not a true issue.

Mark


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## top_down

Hi Mark,

You've answered some of my questions here already (thank you) so I'm going to revise my list of questions a bit!

*1.* Is Audyssey MultiEQXT sufficient to take care of any eq that is required or is something like a miniDSP or Behringer PEQ going to be required?

I'm sure a lot of guys like me have 300w or 500w plate amps that can be repurposed for this (a pro amp seems like total overkill now!), so I'm going to dig a little deeper on the boost question: 

*2.* Is a HPF a requirement to protect the driver? What frequency is best? 

*3.* Is the Sallen Key filter available on most plate amps adequate if the boost is limited with a resistor change? If so, which would be better: 1db of boost or is a little more helpful? At 1dB I think 13.9hz or 18.7hz are the choices. At 2db of boost we have 16.2hz. I'm looking at an Oaudio chart but the PE/CSS charts should be similar if not identical.

I can model all these filter choices in WinISD and know what to expect on a ported sub but on a horn I wouldn't know where to start. If a HPF is a requirement for this horn then most plate amps are going to provide that with at least 1db of boost thrown in even after a resistor change. It would sure be nice to see what 1 or 2db of boost per the plate amp resistor charts would do to the horn's response. (hint, hint - please publish a response curve with a BASH amp with 1db of boost (or whatever works best))

*4.* I'm thinking of building this thing as sort of a long and low media console (16.5" high) and set my TV, receiver and DVD player on top of it. I've got 102.5" between the mains so it does fit. But setting stuff on top... would it just shake the ____ out of all the electronics? You guys were laying on it, what did it feel like when it was running 115dB?

*5.* Should I point the horn out towards the room or to the left towards the left wall like your prototype? 

*6.* Can I put a grille over the outlet? Could I do perforated metal to match a Martin Logan ESL panel or just grille cloth?


Thanks!!!


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## mwmkravchenko

Questions and answers:

1. First listen to this monster and tell me if you need EQ. It was designed to work in tandem with the mythical every room gain. It is true that there is structurally reinforced reflections that tend to show up as greater loudness in a given room. It is also true that each room shape and size has a slightly different effect. So what I did was take a mean or average of what could be expected in most rooms. If you factor in room gain of about 3 db at 60 hertz and 6 db at 30 hz 8 to 9 at 15 hertz you end up with a pretty flat response. Engineered to perform.

So that being said. Do you need fancy shmanchy EQ's?

Maybe. But keep this in mind. Every db in peaking requires quite a bit in terms of greater excursion. In fact on the TRIO12 a 3db gain will require 4mm of greater displacement. You quickly run out of linear throw on the driver.

2. High Pass Filter. To cut the low end or not?

Well what are you listening to that has any real content down lower than 14hz? 

Seriously?

Well yes it is possible to bottom out the driver how you could accomplish that is a bit on the crazy side of things. The rear chamber acts as a sort of spring that keeps things behaving down that low. 

So if you want to do this you cut create a high pass filter and cut out everything below the horns passband. About 14 to 15 hertz is safe.

WinISD will not model what happens inside a horn. In fact when it comes to accurately modeling driver excursion I do not use WinISD. It has some interesting gremlins that make it rather untrustworthy at times. I use Hornresp. Very accurate. But it will not model a EQ peak directly. That you have to do the hard way.

BASH = TRASH nuff said. I don't like them. 

Their power ratings are way over blown. But they can be economical. For this box I would recommend the 500 if you were buying from scratch. It will give you more headroom. But keep in mind that a good solid one hundred watt amp will knock your socks off.

3. Sallen Key? Is that like a car key?



OK I'll behave. Yes a mild boost at 13.9 or 18.7 will do two things. Remember that you will get a bit of greater output but you will also get a greater rate of roll off in the response below that knee or center point of the boost point. So it will act as a bit of a high pass filter or low end cut off.

4. Unlike a conventional sub this puppy does rock and roll. It behaves itself. If you build it out of OSB and brace it as is instructed you have an extremely stiff box. Again I state unequivocally that 7/16" OSB is plenty strong to build this out of. Of you don't like the finish skin it with something you like. The material qualities of OSB make almost ideal for building loudspeakers. It has two outside layers that are very dense with a softer core. Thus it is naturally internally dampened. Perfect for subs where you want something not to vibrate. 

I used to build everything with 1 1/8th " MDF. Remember I'm a cabinet maker by training. Then try moving such beasts when a single sheet weighs in a 189 lbs. Just try pushing it across a table saw! It occurred to me that light and stiff will work just as well as big and heavy. In fact there is less energy storage potential in a lighter structure than in a heavy one. 

5. Every room can be different. Some will load better close to the ceiling some from corners. Some from the middle of the longest wall. Short answer play around. If you have a predetermined position it might be best to point the mouth towards the wall and listen. Move it away a bit and listen some more. The distance between the mouth of the horn and the closest boundary does change the tonality of the response. You can tune this box to a degree. 

6. Yup. Your choice both are good ideas.

Mark


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## kadijk

Thanks Mark. Great info. I can't wait to start the build. I'm planning on driving the sub with either my Yamaha ax330, rated at 65w/ch, or my Kenwood kr-v7030 rated at 100w/ch. Both work good as sub amps in my mind because they have a line direct option with no post processing, so I run the sub feed out of my receiver into the cd line in on these amps and then just turn up the bass gain and turn down the treble gain for a cheap, reasonably powerful sub amp. I hope one or the other will be appropriate for the trio horn. What do you think?


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## mwmkravchenko

Leave your tone controls on the middle position. A sub feed off of a receiver is already limited on the top end and most bass controls boost at about 100 Hz. To high up to be helpful on a sub.


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## kadijk

Finally...saw dust is flying in the Kadijk shop!! At least into the dust collector, hopefully. Yes, the taxes got done, books caught up to date, some things done around the house and top it all of, I cleaned the garage to prep for this project. I wish I had a "before" picture...









I have around 500 sqft of shop area, and before cleaning up, I had around 40 useable. 4 truck loads to the dump and some serious organizing, and things are a little more acceptable. Still need insulation and drywall, but I can't wait any longer to get this show on the road. 

As you can see, I got the main sides cut and laid out ( thanks to mose for the layout plans). I have decided to use 1/2" mdf instead of the suggested osb, and 3/4" for the driver mounting board. I will be using biscuits for all joinery onto the "bottom", and in the corners. I think that I will be doing a combination of carpenters glue and PL Premium, depending on the situations as they arise. 









One little hic-up today. Yesterday I cut and machined the motorboard( driver mount) and was completely unhappy with the way it turned out. With the hole cut the right size for the driver, there is not enough edge thickness for the threaded inserts to grab. So today I made a new one, and took a few extra steps in the process. First I did a 3/16" rabbit for the driver to sit in rather than having it simply flush on the board. Then I routed the hole 1/8" smaller than the actual driver flange. After laying out the mounting holes, I reset the circle jig and cut the original size hole( in this case 11"), leaving the area close to each screw untouched so that there is enough edge thickness for the inserts. And then for good measure, I rounded off all the edges to improve air flow coming directly off the driver. Test fit everything, and then used Elmer's Ultimate polyurethane glue(similar to Gorilla Glue) to lock in the threaded inserts. 








New and improved motorboard with inserts glued in





















first attempt at the motorboard. You can see the threads of the inserts coming through the edges. I couldn't leave it like that and sleep well...

Time to let the dust settle, and get some rest.


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## mwmkravchenko

Nice. 

Going to be a nice box.

I included the plan views that Mose produced. Maybe you got the previous version.

Boy were you working late!

I used to do that until I biscuit jointed some finger tips on my left hand. No more late nights for me. And thankfully my fingers are fine to. I hope you can get your box from your shop to your listening room without having to punch a hole in the wall!


----------



## mose

Nice detail on the motorboard. It's a shame nobody will ever see it!

I also used glue on the biscuits and PL everywhere else. Worked well. The biscuits were great for mock-up and trial fit. Also made alignment during assembly really easy. However for the final lid, I only had biscuits on three sides and none in the middle or I feared I wouldn't be able to get the lid on.

Mark, I didn't send him the plan layout, so he must have got it from your packet.

...mose


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## kadijk

Thanks guys. I got your layout, Mose, and some other pictures, from Bob. I'm cross referencing Marks drawings, the layout, and my lines on the actual piece to make sure things are correct. I've already caught a couple little things that I did wrong as I drew it out. But all in all things match up really well. 

Thinking ahead a little now...any opinion on whether the mouth should end up near the floor or ceiling? I'm willing to play with directional orientation, but flipping end for end does not sound like fun to me.


----------



## kadijk

Quick question for you Mark. I'm putting cleats along all the joints in the box, but I'm considering leaving them 3/4 x 3/4 instead of ripping them 45 degrees. Will this affect the path volume or is it not a factor?


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## mwmkravchenko

You can leave them square if you want to. But cutting them at an angle gets you many more pieces. If you are nervous about the cut there is a way to cut them by yourself. You run the cut through your stock about half the length of your board. Shut the saw off with the board in place. Pull it out with the saw off and push it through the running saw from the other end. Saves your fingers from getting to close to the blade.


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## kadijk

One would think that a weekend would afford good opportunities to work on a project like this...mine did not. However I did get some time in last week, and although it doesn't look like I got very much done, I do have most of the pieces sized with the biscuits cut in, and test fit for positioning so that there are no surprises when the glue starts to flow. I have started with cutting and testing the bracing, and as I go I will attach the cleats to the pieces that need them so that there is less to deal with once the assembly starts. Hopefully lots of pre planning and fitting will pay off near the end. 

I have a few pictures, test fitting the outside edges, cutting biscuits for the baffles, and a ready to install motorboard with bracing in place. I deviated a little from the plan in that I kept the outside a complete rectangle for now, aside from the horn mouth, and will cut those pieces near the driver enclosure out later, once the motorboard is in and I know things are square....thinking like a framer in that I love the natural ability of a corner to hold things square and strong while the interior is being assembled.


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## mwmkravchenko

So?

Impatiently waiting for the boom!


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## kadijk

Oh me too...it seems that Murphy's been around my place. Start a project after so long a wait, and the universe gets jealous. Work gets busier, grass and weeds grow faster, daughters 16th birthdays roll around, etc etc etc. things will start rolling again this weekend. Thanks for asking. I'm trying not to be so perfectionist that I stall myself...just steady progress towards the impending earthquake.


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## GranteedEV

This is gonna be awesome. BTW where in alberta are you situated?


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## mwmkravchenko

Kadijk at least you are putting the right stuff in the right order.

And man are you going to have a heavy cabinet!


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## kadijk

I got to work in the garage this weekend, after all the hustle of life settled down a bit. It's not going to look like much in the pictures, and if you're not familiar with the internal workings of this cabinet not much will look like it makes sense. However 9 hours of meticulous measuring and shaping resulted in all my internal bracing being cut, sized, and prep'd for install when required. I cut air travel holes and rounded off all appropriate edges and test fit each piece so that when the glue flows there will be no surprises. It might not look like 9 hours of work, so I can be accused of either working slow ( which is probably most accurate) or of being overly picky ( maybe equally evil ). I look at it this way...no one is paying me to do this, so I can be as sloppy or careful as I want and time only becomes my enemy when I set a deadline for completion, which I won't. I am getting a strong desire to hear this beast in action, so things will not drag on too long. I did actually start assembly too, and glued the braces on the outside panel for the first horn segment so that it's ready to go when the panels start going into place. I'll glue as many cleats on as I can next ( seems easier laying flat than standing in place) and then start putting major pieces together.

By the way, I am in Lethbridge(I'll have to update my profile). I am also still thinking about mouth up at the ceiling or down at the floor...any opinions?








All the bracing cut and laying basically where it will go















Is the project possible with 4 sheets of material? If you're very careful with use...this is all that's left















The first of the assembly. Braces for the first horn segment. Here we go!


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## mwmkravchenko

I'd have to say that the internal bracing is the hardest part.

So if you have completed that you are doing well.

And it looks really good.

Exit will not really matter that much. The upper frequencies where this horn will work have a longer wavelength than your rooms floor to ceiling dimension. So you are in a case of choose your poison.


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## kadijk

4 days since my last post? Ouch, time flies when you're having fun. I got a bit busy with work and stuff, but did manage a couple of evenings to attach all the cleats and brace supports to the panels, baffles and braces. I liked the idea of doing it while the pieces are uninstalled so I could glue and nail them lying down on the work bench as opposed to standing up in the box, not to mention the small areas to work with glue and a nailer. 

Yesterday I got started on assembly! :flex: It's nice to see the whole thing starting to come together. It's a bit of a patient slow process, because the glue needs to set and I don't have 100 clamps, but I've been able to come back to the project at different times of the day and add another piece and keep going bit by bit. It definitely helps to have all the parts pre made and pre fitted so that I don't have to be cutting and shaping and frantic while the assembly is drying. Maybe by the end of the weekend I'll have most of the main structure complete...








first and second panels on and clamped!















third panel on with bracing already attached.







thank goodness for a brother and dad who also own clamps...







fourth panel forming the bottom and giving the mouth it's shape







motor board installed and clamped







driver enclosure. It doesn't have alot of room back there







first interior baffle forming the pinched throat in front of the driver. 

This is definitely a challenging cabinet to build, but it seems to be coming together without a hitch so far. One thing that seems strange is the way that the PL Premium "reacts" as it dries. I'm not using it for the actual joinery, but using it more like caulking once the joints are solid. It actually bubbles, like something behind it is trying to gas off. Not sure what's causing that, and I'm not too worried because it's not causing problems. I just haven't seen glue do that before.
Can't wait to put it through the paces...:hsd:


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## Cyberfloatie

That's coming together nicely! It's going to be one heavy beast when you're done! :R


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## mwmkravchenko

Looking great x 2!

The PL is actually a bit better than most PVA glues as it does a couple of things very well. It is great against shock resistance. And as it cures it expands. That fills in any minor gaps in the joinery. A horn has to be air tight along it's path length. You are telling the pressure wave off of the woofer cone what it's doing and where it is going by means of the horn path. If there are leaks there will be serious losses in efficiency. And close to the woofer there is serious amounts of air pressure. I have yet to find an affordable sensor to measure it, but I'm working on that.

Clamps are your friend, I have 300, so most of the time I'm OK. But more times than I can count I have had all of them in use at the same time on the same job.


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## kadijk

The PL premium is amazing glue. I do love it. It just seems too thick for the actual joinery. So I guess I've reduced it to a serious caulk. 

Construction continues one piece at a time. I do have more pics but haven't had time to post them. The horn path is really taking shape now. And the box is gaining weight. All good signs.


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## mwmkravchenko

Well still looking pretty good. 

A slow but steady route still wins the race.

As for PL not being good for joinery, remember that it is thixotropic, as in when it first comes out it is relatively thick. If you use it in a proper manner on a good fitting joint you end up with. Nice thin glue line. Try it if you are in doubt.


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## kadijk

I managed to pry the computer out of the kids hands for a few moments, so here are some progress pictures. Getting bored with the same old looks? Not me! I know there is progress, and every piece is one closer to finished and thundering. After tonight's glue session, all I have left in the main structure is the bracing, which all fits super good and should go relatively quickly.








Closing up the first segment and moving towards the first turn.







It still baffles me that the throat and first segment can be SO narrow. I've been building this unbeknownst to most of my friends, but the few that have seen the box so far can't believe the narrow, "restricted" horn path for the first 9 feet or so...they don't believe it will work. And I tell them, "Kravchenko designed it, so it's GOING to work!!"







forming up the second segment and moving towards the second turn. Ready for bracing


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## Cyberfloatie

Ooooh! I'm getting shivers just looking at it! You're certainly doing a nice job of the woodwork.

I can't wait to hear your reports of how it sounds!


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## mwmkravchenko

Thunder.

Thundering. 

Boom!

Kravchenko designed it so it works! Man, nothing like a little pressure. At least there is a prototype and a bunch of other builds to look back on. Yours is going to be very well built. Have you tried fitting in the bracing around the cleats? Sometimes some things get in the way.

And those buddies will be real handy come time to move your monster. Half inch MDF is 110 lbs a sheet if I remember correctly.


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## kadijk

It's definitely exciting to see it take shape, as slow as that is. I pick it up on one end every now and again to get a feel for the weight. Conclusion...it's heavy! I'm sure I've moved heavier more awkward things though, so this won't be so bad. 

Mark, pressures good for you. Keeps you on your toes and in top form.


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## ALMFamily

Wow - I did not realize the size - very nice! And, it looks like your normal stellar workmanship K - subscribed!


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## kadijk

ALMFamily said:


> Wow - I did not realize the size - very nice! And, it looks like your normal stellar workmanship K - subscribed!


Thanks Joe. Nice to see you following along.


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## kadijk

Summer in the construction industry and free time don't tend to co-exist. Then add an acreage with grass and rain every other day...one could be a full time mower!!

Here's a little update on some progress. I've got most of the bracing in, and just need to put some braces in the big turn and in the mouth. Then I can prep the driver space and put the last big panel on to close it up.








Second segment bracing







vertical bracing for the third segment







third segment braced!







the mouth of the beast (unbraced as of yet)


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## mwmkravchenko

Oh so close to wood off!


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## kadijk

Can't believe its been over 2 weeks since I was able to work on the project! That's what life does sometimes. I know there are others here that have had to slow down production as summer activities role in. The hard part is picking up where one left off and continuing with the same gusto and determination. Now my unfortunately uninsulated garage is around 35 degrees Celsius during the late afternoon, so working in there is a test of will, not just a test of energy. And so I press on. I actually watched the Transformers 2 bluray last night, pre-horn, just to get a good feel for what I have now and to have a reference for when this beast is ready. I still think those 2 sealed peerless are surprisingly good...things were rattling in the room that never have before. I think I'll be doing some vibration suppression once the horn is in place(I think the adjustable shelves in my component rack will suddenly become non-adjustable).








bracing installed in the big turn








expanding foam (and some batts to follow) in the center divider








two coats of primer and two coats of paint in advance in the mouth








extra material cut away to prep for the driver cover and final panel instal








waiting.......

I'm hoping to get the final panel on tonight, so it can dry and then the prep starts on the driver cover-once the glue dries.


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## Cyberfloatie

So exciting! I can't wait to hear your impressions of this beast!


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## mwmkravchenko

Pretty good cabinet making for a lowly framer!

All I can say is great job.

And interesting idea about subwoofer comparison. I can tell you that there will be a difference. There will be a change in tone,as in you may miss some grunt at the beginning. That's your Peerless drivers pooping out. Drivers getting to their excursion limits tend to distort quite badly. This sounds like louder bass. Takes a bit of getting used to listening to clean loud bass. What you will get in spades will be punch, and much greater dynamics. Toss in being able to drop almost an octave deeper with the same level of efficiency, and much lower distortion. You will enjoy going through your movie and music collection trying everything you thought had low end. Some will disappoint, some will knock your socks off.

Still waiting for woof off. ( phone spell checker can't change it this time! I'm fixing and typing on my puter.)


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## kadijk

Thanks, guys. 

Well it was midnight before we were done, but the panel is on and clamped and drying!! :flex:The pictures are taken after all the glue squeeze out was cleaned up, so don't be concerned...there was glue almost everywhere! A peek inside with a trouble light revealed good glueing everywhere I could see, and if there were gaps(and I don't think there were), they did not exist any longer. 

















todays task...rest this morning, and build the driver hatch this afternoon while the glue cures.


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## kadijk

Update...no real progress. Clamps are off, glue is dry, and I'm really itching to finish! But this is the nature of summer. And I won't get anything done in the next two weeks...holidays=camping. So August it'll be. Hope your summer has been fun so far...


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## Kim Frye

Hello everyone,
I've been looking for some extra help on building this horn. I purchased the kit and did not receive manual or CD. Contacted Bob and he sent me via email the sketchup drawings but I'm having difficulty discerning the parts vs location from them. This build is a different design so was wondering if this is an improved version? (Looks great by the way). Also do not have a layout drawing for the throat dimensions. If someone has a copy I could obtain that would great. I could probably get close from the drawings but would rather have exact dimensions.
If anyone watching this thread could help I would appreciate it. :help: Thank You!


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## kadijk

Go to the post padding thread and log your 5 posts so that I can PM you.


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## Kim Frye

Thank you Kadijk I apologize for jumping in your build thread, but I thought my chances of success would be better. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Again. KF


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## kadijk

PM sent.


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## mwmkravchenko

Whatever you are stuck with you can P.M. me .


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## kadijk

Back in business! Got the bracing installed for the driver enclosure, and started construction of the driver cover panel. I need to get some more threaded inserts in order to continue on that, so I started filling holes on the exterior. Ill post some pictures tonight...


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## Cyberfloatie

kadijk said:


> Ill post some pictures tonight...


I'm waiting on pins and needles!


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## mwmkravchenko

So .....!

Wheres the Kaboom???


THere's supposed to be a Kaboom!


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## kadijk

I'm getting closer every day. In preparation for sealing the driver enclosure this question comes to mind...mostly for mark...do I put stuffing in the driver space? I know I read in the build documents to stuff to taste, but I'm thinking once that baby is closed up, I'm not going to want to open it again for a long long time. Any opinion? There sure isn't alot of room back there! Maybe some batt insulation?


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## mwmkravchenko

Leave it empty. The volume is carefully worked out. Fill in a horn will not help you out much.


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## kadijk

Well it's been a crazy weekend of controlled frenzy. I managed to get the driver enclosure complete, did some modifications for the hook up terminal, and drilled and installed the threaded inserts for the driver cover. Saturday was planned as completion day, and so 2 coats of primer, 3 coats of paint, and some soldering had to happen. I'm thankful to my loving wife, who lived basically without me for the day as I tried my best to get this thing done. I'm learning...slowly...it's the last two percent of almost any project that will tend to kill a person.So thanks again to my wife for being patient with me in these last couple days. Here is some progress to look at...







backing in the driver enclosure for weather strip and threaded inserts







nail holes and blemishes filled and ready for sanding







test fit on the driver cover







I don't think the true size of the cabinet hit me until we stood it on end. That's a 6' ladder standing there







painted, drying, waiting for morning







driver cover with the hookup ready to go

Now for some muscle, and locktite, and patience...


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## kadijk

Da Sub is in Da House!! :hsd:

Early this morning my son and I loaded the horn onto the truck and drove it to the basement door for easy access to the theater. Yup, it was heavy. But we made the 50' carry and began the final steps. Driver instal, cover instal, and some test placement. I love how it disappears into the corner and just sits there waiting to knock your socks off.







loaded and ready to go















test position one







test position two. much better this way, and I'm not sure why. Might have to do with the lack of doors and the back of the room. This faces the side.

So...we watched Inception BD, and I had to turn the amp level down a fair bit from where I had it with the two Peerless 10's. The low's were incredible, and I think things were shaking in the house that have never shook before. My wife and two children watching with us were very impressed, and so am I. I'm not sure what to say except Awesome! My concrete floor felt like it was melting, or at least moving!
Afterwords I did a little test on my own with the WOTW pod scene, and the amp driving the sub went into protection...a little scary. Then I started thinking about things. I forgot that the Trio 12 is a 4 ohm driver and the Peerless are 8ohm. So I have switched the amp setting( a switch on the back) and will have to do some more listening tomorrow. Hopefully the driver is not damaged (?) and the amp lives on (?). I guess I'll see tomorrow evening. Aside from that I am really impressed so far with the deep and full sound. I did a little mid movie switcheroo from the Peerless to the horn, and there really is no comparison. It's fuller, deeper, and even more hard hitting on the punchy side.

Thanks to Mark, and Bob, for a great product and a great design. I'm "preaching" CSS to everyone who asks for sub advice.


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## mwmkravchenko

Finally.

All that hard work and you get a payoff. The great part is that you will be getting a return on investment for many years to come. Forgot a comment on the great looks. It's a big ugly box that goes boom. And you managed to make it look good. Awesome workmanship.


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## Cyberfloatie

Absolutely fantastic! I really couldn't picture how big it was, even with the photo of it beside the ladder, until you put it in the corner. That is one mammoth beast and like Mark said, you made it look good! Great even! Painting it the same color as the walls is a stroke of genius. I probably would have done something stupid like painting it black.

Seeing it now in your space has given me a bunch of ideas for mine. I only hope my rusty woodworking skills are up to the challenge!

Well done! :T


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## mwmkravchenko

So where's the big description of the beast?


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## favelle

So in your honest opinion, for an amateur woodworker with average skills and tools, is this design attainable?


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## mwmkravchenko

Hello favelle.

There is one piece inside that requires a 45° cut. Every single piece including that one could be done with a skill saw and a straight 2x4 as a guide. You need a drill and a caulking gun, a jigsaw would be very useful. Otherwise you need vision, tenacity and muscles.

The manual provides the vision.

Tenacity and muscles......

Your on your own buddy!


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## kadijk

@favelle. I think it's totally possible to build this enclosure in the conditions you describe. Just remember scale. It's not a 2'x2'x2' cube. It's like building four of those at once, all in one piece. The woodwork isn't complicated, it's large. And the bigger you get the more careful and accurate one needs to be simply because error seems to compound faster. Care, patience, determination. Muscles. And help from some shacksters and youre shaking the earth in your neighborhood.


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## kadijk

I made a huge assumption, maybe in error. I've installed the Trio 12 driver with only the factory gasket as a sealer to the baffle. I'm not convinced that it's sealing, and now I'm wondering if I should have used a weatherstrip as well. Any advice? It's a big job to do, but certainly not impossible. My hunch about the seal is that I feel like there should be more clarity and punch, and I'm wondering if that's a seal/air pressure issue at the motorboard.


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## mwmkravchenko

You should seal the driver to the motor board for sure.


----------



## kadijk

So you're saying take the rubber gasket off that the driver came with and use a foam weather strip instead? I want to be clear before taking action. Or use them both?


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## mose

I just used the factory gasket and didn't have any problems. Might depend on how smooth/flat the surface is. 

By the way... I wouldn't say mine has a whole ton of 'kick' or 'punch'. It's more of an incredible extension of really deep bass. I think what some people associate with 'punch' is more of a mid-bass. 

...mose


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## mwmkravchenko

2 things to think about.

You want the best deal you can get.

Play with your crossover frequency to see if you need a little bit more help with the front speakers.



If I remember correctly the woofers on those towers are not very big.

Kick and punch in music comes mostly from 80 hertz up to 240 hertz.

I had a few young gents beat the living day lights out of this sub with Rap and such. They came out all ear to ear smiles. One of them had a SDX15 Monkey coffin as a comparison. The comment was that SDX15 was not even close.


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## kadijk

Okay. Now I'm impressed!! A little bit of progression from yesterday...I did some reading, some research, some "talking", and concluded, with some great advice from those who know better than me, that the Trio 12 needs weatherstrip rather than the gasket it comes with. So down came the box (yes it's heavy), off came the cover and OUT with the driver. I lined the recess I cut into the motor board with two strips of weatherstrip, and then reinstalled the driver onto the baffle. This time I know it's sealed. I got everything back together and did some testing again with the same "music" I was using earlier. 

U2 Get on Your Boots
Porter Robinson The State

I'm really happy with the result now. I was hearing a fair bit of distortion before, and a weird flapping vibration deep in the enclosure. Must have been the leaky seal. Now I have distinguishable notes waaaay down low, punch, kick, and no more ugly noise. It's clean, clear, and ominous. The room is full! of incredible bass, and the house shook with every impact.


----------



## mwmkravchenko

Finally we have KaBoooM!

I knew there was supposed to be Kaboom some where in all this!


----------



## kadijk

Oh baby. There's KaBoooom alright. Knock your socks off kaboom. I had the Porter Robinson song on and went upstairs to observe the effects. Let me tell you...there was a full jug of water on the kitchen table that was hopping with the low freq hits. The floor trusses were moving. The concrete floor downstairs was moving. And that's with zero room pressurization due to the absence of doors(yes, I still have to hang the doors). So once the room is buttoned up...just imagine. And all that with an old Kenwood AVR pushing 100w/ch that I got for $35 feeding the beast!


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## Cyberfloatie

Oh man! Makes me want to drive to Lethbridge and check it out! (I'm in Kelowna.) :hsd:


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## mwmkravchenko

And you guys dared to doubt me!


----------



## kadijk

No doubts Mark. No doubts. I tried to have low expectations all the way through, but the weatherstrip issue let me down. And that was my own fault. Now I would suggest to anyone asking, to go in with high expectations. I've never heard a sub like this one. 
I just watched the first few scenes from the Dark Knight. There's stuff in there I have not heard before, and I've watched that beginning a few times. It's absolutely awesome. Cyberfloatie...come on over! Any time. I have a feeling you'll be building soon.


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## dgolly

hi, i'm a bit of topic, but i need help. i like that horn from what i read and see on this thread, i tried to contact the CSS, but i get no response, i'm from slovenia, should that be the reason?


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## caper26

kadijk said:


> first attempt at the motorboard. You can see the threads of the inserts coming through the edges. I couldn't leave it like that and sleep well...


I find that odd. I didn't have that problem with my Trio12 at all. Kinda sucks that you had to do that extra work. How did you make the flange by the way? You said you used a 3/16 rabit. I have no router experience (yet) but just bought a new one and looking for pointers. I also have a Jasper circle jig I bought.


----------



## kadijk

dgolly said:


> hi, i'm a bit of topic, but i need help. i like that horn from what i read and see on this thread, i tried to contact the CSS, but i get no response, i'm from slovenia, should that be the reason?


If you respond on the CSS website, I'm sure that Bob will get back to you.


----------



## kadijk

caper26 said:


> I find that odd. I didn't have that problem with my Trio12 at all. Kinda sucks that you had to do that extra work. How did you make the flange by the way? You said you used a 3/16 rabit. I have no router experience (yet) but just bought a new one and looking for pointers. I also have a Jasper circle jig I bought.


I used the jasper jig as well. You have to cut the rabit first, before you cut out the hole. I used a 1/2" flat bottomed bit and set the depth at around 3/16". Then reset on the circle jig and use a 1/4" straight cutting bit to make the hole. Take your time, plan well, cut once.


----------



## caper26

right. I thought you said you used a rabbit bit though, which is why I was confused.


----------



## dgolly

Hello, Is it possible to get plans for that horn in digital form? since i'm not able to get trio 12" horn kit, i manage to get only the speaker, i have no plans, so please if anyone can help. 

Jaka.


----------



## NEO Dan

Well done!


----------



## Cyberfloatie

So tomorrow is my birthday. I'm trying not to get my hopes up but I think they are getting me this Trio12 kit from CSS!


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## mwmkravchenko

Well you got me in your corner.


----------



## kadijk

Ya. Me too. And thanks Neo Dan. Much appreciated. 

I'm still working on one finishing touch...yet to be made public.


----------



## Cyberfloatie

Kadijk, you must have got the last TRIO12. :crying:

My wife tried to order the TRIO12 kit for me today. This is the response she got back from Bob:



> Thank you for your contact. Regrettably we are out of stock on the driver and it is being discontinued. We are looking for another driver to fit the cabinet but it will be more expensive.


I'm trying not to be too disappointed and hoping that I'll still (eventually) be able to build a horn that will produce comparable (or better?) results to the TRIO12 but for now I'll just have a little pity party and be envious of those of you who are presently enjoying the glorious lows produced by your horns.


----------



## mwmkravchenko

Not so fast there wailing cyberfloatie.

There is another driver that meet and exceed the TRIO12 in this enclosure.

Send me a P.M. I gives you the insides tip.

Or if enough people want it I can post it publicly.

This box is to good to throw away. I have been looking for a replacement for a while.

And I found one!


----------



## mwmkravchenko

http://www.usspeaker.com/faital pro 12fh510-1.htm

I can bring these in. I'll find out how much.

They meet in every way the performance of the original driver.


----------



## kadijk

You beat me to it Mark. I was going to point him in your direction.


----------



## Mike P.

Since the TRIO12 is no longer going to be produced then it only makes sense a replacement is found for this horn. I fail to see how the Faital Pro 12FH510 can match the low end output of the original design when its Xmax is less than half of a TRIO12. What am I missing?


----------



## caper26

Hopefully the sdx12 comes in stock soon. Not to rub it in, but I am getting started on my trio12 tonight (trio12 apr15 kit).


----------



## Mike P.

The SDX12 is going to be A high excursion 12 but Mark needs to comment on whether it's suitable for the horn.


----------



## mwmkravchenko

> Since the TRIO12 is no longer going to be produced then it only makes sense a replacement is found for this horn. I fail to see how the Faital Pro 12FH510 can match the low end output of the original design when its Xmax is less than half of a TRIO12. What am I missing?


Great to see you Back Mike.

The TRIO12 is a dead duck. As far as I know Bob has no direct replacement in the works. There is an SDX12 but that is an entirely different animal. Not really suited to this horn. Not efficient enough and not a strong enough motor versus the cone mass.

A horn likes to see a light stiff cone, with a lot of horse power behind it. I don't mean watts. Watts can be likened to gasoline in a motor. If you are running a one liter motor and pouring on the gas you are going to hit a point where there is nothing left to give. Do the same thing with a 454 and the more gas you pour into the puppy the faster you can go. Same fuel, different reserve capacities. 

Look at the BL figures, these are the numbers that actually tell you the available force per watt of power coming into the loudspeaker motor. Think of it as cubic inches or cubic centimeters. A higher Bl means a stronger motor. The measured BL on the TRIO12 is 17. The BL on the Faital driver is also 17. There are other more expensive drivers that will even outperform this one.

As for Xmax figures. All woofers don't win the numbers game. They win in the real game. Playing music. Pro drivers are usually setup to extract the maximum efficiency out of the power coming in. The Faital driver has a 12mm thick top plate (similar to the TRIO12 thickness actually) where most of the magnetic energy is focused. It has a 19mm long coil. And a mechanical stroke of 22.5mm before it goes poof! These are Pro quality drivers. They behave themselves.


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## BP1Fanatic

kadijk said:


> test position two. much better this way, and I'm not sure why. Might have to do with the lack of doors and the back of the room. This faces the side.


Nice build! I prefer that position too for my T-TQWT.


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## Cyberfloatie

caper26 said:


> Hopefully the sdx12 comes in stock soon. Not to rub it in, but I am getting started on my trio12 tonight (trio12 apr15 kit).


Do you have a build thread going for this?


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## caper26

yep. Just got back from the shop. Build is in the CSS section of DIY subs here on HTS


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## PerthPete

Hi Guys
I hope to finally get to build one of the Trio12 Horn Loaded subs - or maybe go the whole hog and build a stereo pair. I know that the Trio12 is out of production. There are still a few for sale in various places or I plan to use the new driver that Mark has recommended.

I really want to get hold of a copy of the build manual and pictures. I gather that it was really well put together and very helpful. I have tried several times to get a response from CSS - I am sure that they could run off another copy of the information part of the kit, excluding any hardware. But I can't get an answer. I offered to pay for the information.

Mark very kindly sent me some plan layouts and the sketch pdf, but I really would like to see the build information and pictures. 

Seeing as how I can't buy it from CSS, can anyone supply me with a copy. I am happy to pay for any costs involved (although I'm sure it is all digital). As I said, I am not trying to go around CSS - I have offered to buy but they won't reply.

Any help please !


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## mwmkravchenko

Send me an email Pete, I'll fix you up with whatever you are missing.


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## kadijk

Hi Pete. You're going to love that speaker! I never get sick of that beautiful rumble. If you have any questions while you build, fire away. Start a build thread, maybe, so that we can follow along. It's always fun to watch the progress on a project, especially when we know what you're end product will be. And Mark...if there's any docs you're missing I still have them all too. They are easy to email if need be.


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## matt996

Given the small handful of documented builds, I feel like this horn never got the following that it truly deserved. I found the discussion around the design/measuring/listening to be fascinating. 

I was also really sad to see this driver get discontinued. I really can't justify buying a driver for a build that is (at best) a couple years down the road for me. I already have several drivers on the shelf that are waiting for their cabinets. ... But it seems like the Trio12 is about to go extinct, and I really want to hear this horn!

Perhaps just the plans and detailed build instructions could be made available for those interested enough even though the driver is NLA... I'd imagine some would be willing to purchase the plans and then go hunting for a suitable driver. Or better yet, maybe they'd do another run of Trio12s if that's even possible  . The features/price were formidable.


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## mwmkravchenko

Send me a PM.


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## kadijk

Mark is the man. He's working on it. Drivers have been selected and sourced. So, no trio 12, but still a front loaded horn that absolutely kicks. It literally shakes my house. Each floor is ~2500sqft, and the doors at the opposite end of the house crack in their openings when the low notes hit. And all this, remember, powered by an amp saved from the shelves of Sally Ann. It's outrageous!! Thanks for the comments, btw. It's been a fun journey.


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## Cyberfloatie

Mark has already sourced a replacement driver for this design and I have one sitting on the floor in my room. I will be doing my build over the Christmas break with the help of my father. I'll start a build thread in a few days and will keep you all posted here with pictures and quite likely many many questions.


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## Mike P.

Since the driver is no longer supplied by CSS please post the build threads in the Ported Subwoofers Builds forum.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/ported-subwoofer-build-projects/#axzz2DS0Wy1BC


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## mwmkravchenko

Wee iz a movin:


http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ch-pro-driver-output-14-hertz.html#post567726

Any and all questions go here. Tis only fair as this is no longer a CSS based design, nor is it supported by CSS.


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## Oklahoma Wolf

Good luck on the driver hunt, Mark - I'm sure you'll find something 

For those of you really wanting to try a CSS based horn - my SDX10 tapped horn is still an option. You can even come listen to mine if you're close enough.


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## mwmkravchenko

There are already two drivers available that meet and exceed the older drivers specifications.

Not looking.

Found! :sn:


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## Oklahoma Wolf

<tents fingers>

Eeeeeexcellent


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## Mike P.

Oklahoma Wolf said:


> Good luck on the driver hunt, Mark - I'm sure you'll find something
> 
> For those of you really wanting to try a CSS based horn - my SDX10 tapped horn is still an option. You can even come listen to mine if you're close enough.


If I'm ever going to be in the Swift Current, Maple Creek area I'll definitely take you up on that.


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## Oklahoma Wolf

Cool - just give me plenty of warning so I can clean up around here


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## paulmckim

So I have been going thru several post here and it looks like the horn sub is the way to go. I have a 3200 ft^3 AV/family room that is next to a laundry room and a garage. I was planning on putting the horn in one of these room and having the mouth in the AV room. Does this sound reasonable to you guys?


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## paulmckim

And of course I want to spend as little money as possible.


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## Mike P.

The CSS TRIO 12 driver is no longer available. For a alternate driver for the horn see here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...s/63547-ultimate-subwoofer.html#axzz2GCHMOAAV


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## caper26

and if you were going to use another room, wouldn't IB be the choice?


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## kadijk

It's holidays, so Mark might be MIA, but he did suggest to me early on in the process that having the sub in another room with the mouth facing into the theater is a workable scenario. I'm not totally sure how the sound of the horn compares to an IB, but I do know the horn is awesome, requires very little amp power, and only one relatively low priced driver. IB requires a lot of amp power, multiple drivers, and a big commitment from your house. The horn was the best combination of cheap, ultra-low, and loud. It just takes some building to achieve. 
Hope this helps.


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## mwmkravchenko

Nope, Mark is alive a kicking, digging out of a nice snow storm. This is the time you appreciate large tractors with front end loaders!

As for mounting the horn sub.

Yes you only need the exit of the horn open to the room you desire to have the sound in.

Makes for a nice discreet installation if you so desire.


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## paulmckim

Yes the OWMBO does not want a large sub but I want lots of HTML lows on movies.


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## mwmkravchenko

Help!!!!

Attack of the acronyms!

Watch out buddy, I have a horn and I know how to use it!


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## kadijk

Ya. I still can't figure that one out. Back on subject...my horn is working awesome. Thundering, and what really gets me is the low volume response. It's incredible! It blows all my friends away too. It's so fun. I had someone over the other day who hasn't experienced it yet. Or seem it. And with the lights low, and the box painted the same as the walls...lets just say he was surprised. Then I explain the driver, the cost, and the amp. No one believes me. 
I do wonder what it would be like under the influence of a "real" sub amp...maybe 300 watts of clean low end power.


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## Doc777

One ring to rule them all! OWMBO One Who Must Be Obeyed (wife), looks over shoulder before hitting enter. Coast is clear.


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## zallou3

Hey sorry for bothering you i'm trying to duplicate the trio 12 loaded design with my own 12 inch jl audio subwooer
was wondering if you can help me with the design?


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## mwmkravchenko

zallou3 said:


> Hey sorry for bothering you i'm trying to duplicate the trio 12 loaded design with my own 12 inch jl audio subwooer
> was wondering if you can help me with the design?


Well I'll tell you what I can do.

If you post the model number, I can look up the Thiele/Small parameters and see if you have a winner or not.

I can run a simulation to determine what the output of your subwoofer might be.


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## zallou3

Thank you so much for the quick reply and for helping me!
i have 2 choices: jl audio 12W3v2-D4 i have only one driver
second choice: polk audio db1240 i have 4 drivers of these and a yamaha p3500s amplifier with 900 watt bridged to power any of them.
i don t mind using several drivers and have around 300 cm height, 50 cm width, 50 cm depth to fit the sub. Lowest frequency is a priority. 
Thanks again!


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## mwmkravchenko

What is your lowest frequency you are looking to reproduce?

Second problem, and it is really big one.

The Ultimate subwoofer is 44.5 cm tall x 81 x 234 cm.

It is efficient, goes down to 14 hertz but will have zero chance of fitting into the space you are asking for.

Pus this thread is for an existing completed design. Not for a redesign. For that you would have to contact me off of this website on my own website.

Generally speaking a driver well suited for a front loaded horn is light, high BL greater than 20 and high efficiency.

The majority of car audio drivers do not fit that description. But there are exceptions.

I will do the calculations and you will be able to see what your two driver suggestions will accomplish.


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## mwmkravchenko

So this is the JL Audio driver. 
















JL in Black Dayton PA310-8 in grey. 1 watt input for each.

Most of the deep troughs clear up as you have this in a room.

The frequency response gets the marketing approved seal of plus or minus 3 db.

I'd say that this JL Audio driver is a pretty good choice.

Here is maximum output before you loose X-max:
















125 watts


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## mwmkravchenko

Polk Audio db1240:

One watt input:
















Compared to JL Audio driver:
















JL in grey Polk in black.

Maximum Output before X-max:
















This is with 50 watts input.
















Maximum Displacement. Again 50 watts input.









Polk Audio driver versus the recommended driver. One watt input for each.


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## zallou3

14 hz is pretty good for me
and i'll try finding a place for the sub,make it fit,it's pretty well worth it!
and was there supposed to be any pictures or graphs? i don t see anything..
is the jl more suitable?


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## mwmkravchenko

Fixed my missing graphs.


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## zallou3

Many thanks :smile: 
unfortunately i live in lebanon and it's almost impossible do get other kind of subs including the dayton one.
i take it the JL is a good substitute right?
i've tried reading the hornresp information you included before, still having problems explaining them and translating them into some wood dimensions 
i'd really appreciate it if you can help me out with that :smile:


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## mwmkravchenko

The JL will work.

Much deeper areas where the response is not so good. But if you have a home similar to some of my Lebanese friends, it is either cement block or stone. The response will be much better in that type of a home.

If you want the plans send me a private message.


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