# Pono



## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

About time there was a little push back about the decline in sound quality. Curious to see if there is a big change in our expectations or if low quality and convenience win out yet again or if high resolution and speakers and other equipment that can reproduce what the artists intended for us to hear will prevail.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/allsongs/2...npr&utm_campaign=nprnews&utm_content=03122014


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## Mike0206 (Jul 14, 2013)

nova said:


> About time there was a little push back about the decline in sound quality. Curious to see if there is a big change in our expectations or if low quality and convenience win out yet again or if high resolution and speakers and other equipment that can reproduce what the artists intended for us to hear will prevail. http://www.npr.org/blogs/allsongs/2014/03/12/289435279/hear-neil-young-explain-his-pono-music-player-at-sxsw?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=npr&utm_campaign=nprnews&utm_content=03122014


Interesting read. Thanks for the link!


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## blitzer (Mar 5, 2010)

A good in depth read about the quality you would really get from this is Here. It looks like we would be getting basically what is to be had on HDTracks which, in reality is slave to what the studio master recordings are. Turns out if you download most of the 192/24 files from HDTracks, you will find that it is actually a 44/16 track transformed into 192/24. So, most of the time, you are getting the same recordings, just in a different format with the same audio information on them.

The good thing about Pono is that it is raising awareness that there are people that want to go above 44/16 and do appreciate sound quality and DO listen to their songs on Hi-Fi systems *****AND***** it is not just people into Jazz and Classical. 

Things are changing slowly and the "loudness war" is still raging and still destroying dynamics on 90% of recorded material. In my opinion, the loudness war needs to be won first. You can easily tell the difference between a compressed song and uncompressed. It is much harder to tell the difference between 44/16 and 96/24 or 192/24.


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## blitzer (Mar 5, 2010)

Also - hopefully this gets the electronics manufacturers to spend more money on their output components of phones/tablets. Currently, they are terrible. Looks like it will be much better on the Pono.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

This is really interesting! Not only as a musician, but as an enthusiast. I remember my dad showing me vinyl, and reel to reel as a young kid. I really am disheartened by modern recording practices. Put on a Beatles record, and you can hear Abby road studio. All you can hear nowadays, is pro tools clinical perfection, with zero dynamic range. You guys might also like the story about Dave grohl. (Nirvana/foo fighters). He rescued the sound board out of the "sound city" studio in LA, and I believe used it in his home studio to record their latest album. He's been quite vocal about modern recording also. "Wiki" has a discography for the sound board. You won't believe all the albums made with it. They also made a documentary which I've only seen part of. I think it's just called sound city. Really awesome. Nice to know some people care.


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## Almadacr (May 5, 2011)

Well to simplify , this is the new ipod without the proprietary software from Apple . 

The good 128GB total , plays several codecs , great for musicians and audiophiles with 2 two output jacks ( The analogue one being the most interesting ) .

The bad $399 ouch , only 64GB of internal storage ad another 64GB via Micro SD card , no info regarding headphones and design ( not very attractive for me ) .

This started as a Kickstart project that raise the money in almost 48 hours ($800 000) and i see that artists like Neil Young adapted to the new internet age and created a way to sell there discography . If one day the player hits a street price of $250 they have a buyer in my case .


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## buildsafire (Nov 10, 2013)

The Pono looks reads like it will be a good portable digital player. I am tired of using my ipod touch... which apple no longer supports (generation 3), and is not very reliable anymore. I have been thinking about getting an iPad or a new iPod touch... but I think I will wait and see what comes of the Pono system. Thanks for the great links!


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## nitrox1 (May 26, 2007)

I pledged on Kick Starter to get one signed by the artist. We all strive for great sound, this player combines that with master recordings played back the way they were intended. Never liked CD's harshness, love my vinyls but not the pops and crackles. Can't wait for it to arrive!


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## nova (Apr 30, 2006)

Personally I don't really care about the player as I'm not into the whole portable audio thing. What does interest me is the renewed interest in raising the audio bar. "It's all about the music". Hopefully this will open the eyes of recording labels, there are people who are interested in quality reproduction of music.


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## nitrox1 (May 26, 2007)

Exactly Mark! I never owned a portable in my life, but this is about getting back to the music and not the tin can type these days. I will be hooking this into my HT setup to supplement the music I already own. I find myself watching DVDs just for the sound quality instead of the two to three hundred CDs I have, or listening to my collection of 33 and a 3rds. I may even download some of my CDs to play on the Pono, just to see if they improve. But maybe that's hoping too much. Time will tell.


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## buildsafire (Nov 10, 2013)

nova said:


> Personally I don't really care about the player as I'm not into the whole portable audio thing. What does interest me is the renewed interest in raising the audio bar. "It's all about the music". Hopefully this will open the eyes of recording labels, there are people who are interested in quality reproduction of music.


Couldn't have said it better myself... Although I find it ironic that the solution for poor quality digital playback and recordings of late, is a digital device itself. :coocoo:
But, that said, I look forward to trying one!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

buildsafire said:


> Couldn't have said it better myself... Although I find it ironic that the solution for poor quality digital playback and recordings of late, is a digital device itself. :coocoo: But, that said, I look forward to trying one!


That is ironic indeed. But if that's what it takes... I am also more interested in in putting one in the rack, than dragging it around. I also would like to see the powers that be, stand and deliver. I've heard plenty of artists in the studio talking about capturing the "space", and "breath", and things like that on their records. One really sad reality is that (depending on the artist) when the record company is payin the bills, the artists can be held over a barrel, and not have much to say. ...too bad


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## buildsafire (Nov 10, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> That is ironic indeed. But if that's what it takes... I am also more interested in in putting one in the rack, than dragging it around. I also would like to see the powers that be, stand and deliver. I've heard plenty of artists in the studio talking about capturing the "space", and "breath", and things like that on their records. One really sad reality is that (depending on the artist) when the record company is payin the bills, the artists can be held over a barrel, and not have much to say. ...too bad


So true... The economy, the need it yesterday mentality, artists' not having enough control, and of course the reality that many up and coming artist's are so acclimated to the digital age that they don't know different. 

That said, I have heard some well recorded independent artist's albums recently that give hope. 

I like the Pono concept a lot... I just hope that there is enough interest in new recordings being of high school (& old ones converted at high enough bit rates) to keep it mainstream enough to stay afloat.

Sent From My S4 Via HTS App


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## uni-fi (Mar 17, 2014)

The real issue here hasn't been addressed yet. We like mp3's because they are small, relatively listenable music files. I have been listening to and trading FLAC files for over ten years (before that .shn, and before that just blatant .wav files), and I can tell you it is a LARGE file. The storage available on the Pono, while larger than an iPod at 128Gb, is just not enough to satisfy people who are used to the ability to have 1000's of songs at their disposal. Not to mention at the current 192/24 it makes the files unnecessarily large. Big numbers do not translate into quality. It is an algorithm. 

What I am also surprised to see is that the audiophiles that are jumping on this bandwagon have yet to ask the simple questions. What are the A/D converters like? Is there a pure digital output? Optical? SPIDF? ANYTHING? 

As far as I am concerned, it is an iPod that plays FLAC, and if you didn't know, you can play FLAC on your iPod, Android device, PC, laptop, etc. This is not a new technology, nor is it a new format. I am happy to see bands that want to release better quality digital files of their music, and I am all for it. But do not try to pull the wool over my eyes by telling me I need a $400 piece of garbage.


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## blitzer (Mar 5, 2010)

I understand your comments uni-fi. I have a number of 5 minute high-resolution audio files that are over 1GB a piece. Yes, over 1GB! 128 GB is nothing these days. 24/192 files can easily hit 1/4 to 1/2 a GB.

I personally feel that I am hearing 95% hype and 5% solid information. Listening to the Pono in a car(a loud car at that) and saying it sounds superior is hype.

BUT - I love the attention that high resolution is getting despite all the hype and misinformation. I only hope it does not backfire if/when it fails to impress.

There are so many issues with Pono if you look at it with a discerning eye. Search on "Mark Waldrep pono" to see a number of in depth articles on all aspects of pono and the real sound quality it is likely to produce.


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## nitrox1 (May 26, 2007)

Actually I'm starting to go off the idea of buying one. I've been reading a lot more about the Pono since my pledge and am not sure my $400.00 isn't spent more wisely some where else, or saved for a later time. It may not be a idea bad to wait until the euphoria has passed, people start to use it, and actual critical assessments have taken place. 

Like when I bought the HD DVD player only to have BluRay win the war.


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## uni-fi (Mar 17, 2014)

I should say this, I am all for FLAC files, or any uncompressed media format. The bottom line is FLAC is a codec, so it is actually compressed via an algorithm, and then uncompressed to be listened to (CODEC = Compress/Decompress). However, it is great for what it is. It has been around for a long time, and anyone can release their digital downloads in this format. 

There have been bands that have been doing this for years. Mostly jam bands, but those have been the early adopters of this technology. Believe me, FLAC isn't going anywhere. 

The need isn't for a FLAC player, there are plenty of devices that support it (I had an in car Pioneer Sirius tuner 7 or 8 years ago that supported their HDD and it also supported FLAC), and my friends Jeep Rubicon stereo supports FLAC as well as audio files on DVD. 

Again, the player isn't the issue, as you can listen to FLAC on pretty much any portable device. The issue is distribution. The mainstream distribution for digital media is through iTunes, and Apple has a proprietary uncompressed format (ALAC) so they are not willing to distribute FLAC. If the artists/record industry sees a way to profitably distribute their media, they will adopt it...regardless of format.


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## Inceptic (Jan 24, 2010)

I'm glad that this device is raising awareness. I haven't heard it, so I can't really judge.

It does seem though that the hype of their kickstarter is dying a bit:
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1003614822/ponomusic-where-your-soul-rediscovers-music/#chart-daily


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## A/V (Feb 5, 2014)

I am looking forward to reading more about the Pono and getting users opinions too. It is definitely going to be on my must-listen list I think though.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

People such as Neil Young, and companys such as Sony are helping the demise of higher resoution audio. They promote and produce expensive special products saying 'high resolution audio sounds great and you can now have access using these expensive special products.' Expensive special products are not needed, most MP3 players (they are actually portable audio players that can play a variety of formats) and most budget home hi-fi gear will play higher resolution audio. Saying you need special gear is just going to turn people away.

Then you've got the 'musicians' that say they want to produce great sounding recordings. Awhile ago I watched some documentary thing with Linkin Park. They mention better quality but later you see them in the studio recording the percussion track and you can see on the sound board that the recording volume meter is constantly pegged at the top of the red.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Almadacr said:


> Well to simplify , this is the new ipod without the proprietary software from Apple .
> 
> The good 128GB total , plays several codecs , great for musicians and audiophiles with 2 two output jacks ( The analogue one being the most interesting ) .
> 
> ...


It is nothing like an iPod... I had the opportunity to listen to one at 125db, and the sound was the best recorded sound I have ever heard! I have held Vinyl as the best sound for years but this is better (no pops, clicks, static, but just the music) I used to have a Mitchell Gyrodec, Sumiko arm, cartridge, ML Sequels with Classe Audio DR6 preamp, and DR10 amps (which I believe would qualify for Hi End audio).There is no way a iPod or MP3 player, or your CD player can come anywhere close to the sound of it. I cannot disclose any more about it but it is def worth the price IMO. :T
When it hits the market and you get a chance to hear it you will be shocked as to how good it sounds. I would say it is reference material for your reference 2 channel setup. BTW... There is a headphone jack... I did not listen to it with headphones though.


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## Almadacr (May 5, 2011)

ellisr63 said:


> It is nothing like an iPod... I had the opportunity to listen to one at 125db, and the sound was the best recorded sound I have ever heard! I have held Vinyl as the best sound for years but this is better (no pops, clicks, static, but just the music) I used to have a Mitchell Gyrodec, Sumiko arm, cartridge, ML Sequels with Classe Audio DR6 preamp, and DR10 amps (which I believe would qualify for Hi End audio).There is no way a iPod or MP3 player, or your CD player can come anywhere close to the sound of it. I cannot disclose any more about it but it is def worth the price IMO. :T
> When it hits the market and you get a chance to hear it you will be shocked as to how good it sounds. I would say it is reference material for your reference 2 channel setup. BTW... There is a headphone jack... I did not listen to it with headphones though.



When i said it's like a ipod it was because of 2 things - Storage capacity and playing different codecs . Only the advantage of a ipod classic it's the 160G of storage and the capability of playing WAV up to 48HZ .

But most car decks today can hold SD/Micro SD cards where i can put FLAC files at 24/96Hz and sound better than my ipod classic . Now i had some files at 24/192Hz and they weren't better than the 24/96Hz ( a lot of ppl thinks the same some say it's a sham ) . So if you want to had a 64G SD card to listen music in your car that cost's around $40 you are saving $360 and this only not going about acoustics inside a car speakers car decks subs etc . 

The only advantage i see on the Pono is to be a portable player that's it . There are better options if you want just to play High rez. files if you ad a HTPC with several HDD's and that's what i have a HTPC for digital files on the HT part of it and i have second set only vinyl .

So resuming , it's a way for artists to sell there music instead going after some kid that is downloading from a torrent site , and it's a good thing since it shows that are artists that adapted to the internet era , but for the player itself ... it's expensive for me .

BTW i will be very interested to ear and reed your opinions when you can , regarding the pono player .

PS : Regarding the headphones i spoke if it comes with headphones or not ??? :T


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Almadacr said:


> When i said it's like a ipod it was because of 2 things - Storage capacity and playing different codecs . Only the advantage of a ipod classic it's the 160G of storage and the capability of playing WAV up to 48HZ .
> 
> But most car decks today can hold SD/Micro SD cards where i can put FLAC files at 24/96Hz and sound better than my ipod classic . Now i had some files at 24/192Hz and they weren't better than the 24/96Hz ( a lot of ppl thinks the same some say it's a sham ) . So if you want to had a 64G SD card to listen music in your car that cost's around $40 you are saving $360 and this only not going about acoustics inside a car speakers car decks subs etc .
> 
> ...


It doesn't come with headphones but there is a headphone jack on it. When I heard the Pono... I only heard the Tracks that were the High quality ones that were on the Pono. I was not expecting the quality of sound that I heard at all. I was told that if you listen with headphones it is awesome too. If I would have had more time I would have tried the headphones out too. As it was I listened for about 2 hours to the Pono with a wide variety of tracks, and all of them sounded awesome. I did comment on the need for a Pono that had remote control and rack mountable (not portable)... We will see if one becomes available in the future. There was some talk about JRiver being able to play the tracks too... But I can't remember if they said it would be a yes or a no though. If JRiver could play the tracks then I would have no need for a stand alone player and would just buy the tracks I wanted. I would then see this as being a Mobile Fidelity type of product where the music is remixed to the best it can be and then re sold. I mainly l use my current setup for movies but this made me want to get back into listening to 2 channel music more seriously again. I think that when you get a chance to listen to one you will be very pleasantly surprised. :T :T As far as storage capacity... It uses a internal and a external sim card so you can always carry extra sim cards if you need more capacity. :T

I agree it is a little expensive for the player but... People spend as much or more on their phones too. :T Who know maybe if this takes off it will be offered in other pieces of equipment too. All I know is once it comes out and I have the extra cash for it I will be getting one. :T


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

ellisr63 said:


> I did comment on the need for a Pono that had remote control and rack mountable (not portable)... We will see if one becomes available in the future.


Welcome to the future, there is already a rack mountable (non portable) unit. In fact there are many. I have several, the main one being an Okyo TX-SR 706 AVR. 



ellisr63 said:


> There was some talk about JRiver being able to play the tracks too... But I can't remember if they said it would be a yes or a no though. If JRiver could play the tracks then I would have no need for a stand alone player and would just buy the tracks I wanted. :T


JRiver has been able to store and play these tracks/formats for several years. I use it. 

I'm not sure what you are thinking is different about PONO from any other device/equipment already out there. PONO does not use any proprietary audio formats. It's store will sell FLAC files that use the common resolutions. I've been doing the exact same thing with HDTracks, iTrax, Linn Records, and several other online stores that sell audio online.

For my home system, all my high resolution tracks are stored on my computer, played through JRiver, listened to through my Onkyo AVR. 
For portability I download the high resolution tracks onto my Zune HD portable music player (a very common 'mp3 player'). My 'mp3 player' plays the exact same audio formats and resolution as the PONO.

From the PONO website:
"_ The PonoMusic.com Store uses FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Codec) audio format as its standard, for compatibility, although the PonoPlayer can play most popular high-res music formats from other sources. PonoMusic has a quality spectrum, ranging from really good to really great, depending on the quality of the available master recordings: 

CD lossless quality recordings: 1411 kbps (44.1 kHz/16 bit) FLAC files
High-resolution recordings: 2304 kbps (48 kHz/24 bit) FLAC files 
Higher-resolution recordings: 4608 kbps (96 kHz/24 bit) FLAC files
Ultra-high resolution recordings: 9216 kbps (192 kHz/24 bit) FLAC files_ "


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## Almadacr (May 5, 2011)

ellisr63 said:


> It doesn't come with headphones but there is a headphone jack on it. When I heard the Pono... I only heard the Tracks that were the High quality ones that were on the Pono. I was not expecting the quality of sound that I heard at all. I was told that if you listen with headphones it is awesome too. If I would have had more time I would have tried the headphones out too. As it was I listened for about 2 hours to the Pono with a wide variety of tracks, and all of them sounded awesome. I did comment on the need for a Pono that had remote control and rack mountable (not portable)... We will see if one becomes available in the future. There was some talk about JRiver being able to play the tracks too... But I can't remember if they said it would be a yes or a no though. If JRiver could play the tracks then I would have no need for a stand alone player and would just buy the tracks I wanted. I would then see this as being a Mobile Fidelity type of product where the music is remixed to the best it can be and then re sold. I mainly l use my current setup for movies but this made me want to get back into listening to 2 channel music more seriously again. I think that when you get a chance to listen to one you will be very pleasantly surprised. :T :T As far as storage capacity... It uses a internal and a external sim card so you can always carry extra sim cards if you need more capacity. :T
> 
> I agree it is a little expensive for the player but... People spend as much or more on their phones too. :T Who know maybe if this takes off it will be offered in other pieces of equipment too. All I know is once it comes out and I have the extra cash for it I will be getting one. :T


Cool :T BTW there is already a rackable unit  but it's gonna cost you some $$$ 

Sony


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

gdstupak said:


> Welcome to the future, there is already a rack mountable (non portable) unit. In fact there are many. I have several, the main one being an Okyo TX-SR 706 AVR.
> 
> JRiver has been able to store and play these tracks/formats for several years. I use it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info... I will say that the tracks you download from Pono are not your standard Flac recordings... Once they release the product they will disclose more about the Pono tracks. :T The recordings we heard before the Pono were Flac recordings, and they were not anywhere near as good as the Pono ones were. :T The DAC they use is one difference... Hence why they only offer the Pono with analog outputs. I think you can figure out what the other difference is without me getting into any trouble by disclosing it. :T


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Please forgive me for pressing the issue, but I just don't understand....




ellisr63 said:


> ... I will say that the tracks you download from Pono are not your standard Flac recordings...


Is the recording industry going to supply PONO with different and better recordings/masterings than the recording industry will supply to all other vendors (i.e. HDTracks, iTrax...)? And then only PONO will have these one-of-a-kind recordings to sell only on their website? And then those standard Flac files will only be able to be downloadable onto PONO devices? 
Sounds very Apple-ish.




ellisr63 said:


> Once they release the product they will disclose more about the Pono tracks. :T The recordings we heard before the Pono were Flac recordings, and they were not anywhere near as good as the Pono ones were. :T


From PONO's website, "_We want to be very clear that PonoMusic is not a new audio file format or standard_". 
A Flac is a Flac is a Flac. PONO tracks are Flac. The only way PONO's track could sound any different from an HDTrack track is if PONO takes that track and alters it, or if PONO gets a completely different recoding/mastering from the studio.




ellisr63 said:


> The DAC they use is one difference... Hence why they only offer the Pono with analog outputs.


The DAC is the one area I can agree that can make a noticeable difference in sound quality. But I see no correlation between what DAC they use and why they only offer analog outputs.




ellisr63 said:


> I think you can figure out what the other difference is without me getting into any trouble by disclosing it. :T


No, I have no idea what the other difference is, but don't worry about saying it out loud, I don't want you to get into trouble.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

gdstupak said:


> Please forgive me for pressing the issue, but I just don't understand....
> 
> 
> Is the recording industry going to supply PONO with different and better recordings/masterings than the recording industry will supply to all other vendors (i.e. HDTracks, iTrax...)? And then only PONO will have these one-of-a-kind recordings to sell only on their website? And then those standard Flac files will only be able to be downloadable onto PONO devices?
> ...


You might be on the right track :T

The reason they want to do analog only is they can control what the DAC does... Which from what I understood means they can make the track sound its best, whereas if they did digital out then it could me altered from what was intended.


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## nitrox1 (May 26, 2007)

Just received my new cans...Momentum over the ear....in anticipation of Pono in October.


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