# Home Theatre newbie set up



## Gnitrops (Mar 22, 2015)

Hello there!

I've recently undergone some remodelation at my living room and I think it is finally time to step up and start building a decent home theatre setup. However, I'm in need of some advice/guidance. We're not an audiophile family, but we're not comfortable just going to a random electronics store and buying something random they have sitting there. We'd like to get some fine quality with a bang for the buck, entry level-wise.

That said, we currently have a Sony KDL 46HX850 with the "stock" sound bar. We mostly watch 720/1080p movies and TV series, Netflix and so. I'm considering adquiring a Minix NEO Z64 to work as a "tv pc" and use XBMC. We stream some music from the PC, mostly pop/rock and jazz/bossa nova stuff.


I attached to this post a map of my room with dimensions in cm and a few photos. The remodelation works are not fully over yet, but I'd like to place the couch on the "left" (on the map) wall, and the TV on the "right", besides the door, on that TV stand there. I intentionally left a tube beneath the floor so I can pass cables from the right wall to the left, without having to hide them under mats and stuff The couch will be the one pictured too, and I'm guesstimating the viewing distance will be around 3 meters. TV could be bigger I know, but I'm happy to stick with this one for now.

Sound-wise, I know I'd like some 5.1 system, but I'm very new to DAC, digital signals, SPDIF, DTS, multi-channel passthrough and all those things. I'm really confused on all those, to be honest. I don't feel like investing in something just to find out I bought it all wrong. For one, looks like the Minix can't do the multi-channel passthrough, so I'm not sure how shall I arrange the connections between the TV/media player/sound-system-to-be. Can someone point me some directions on where can I go to, from here?

Cheers


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

First, welcome to the Forum!

Hate to be the bearer of bad news to a new member, but the biggest challenge I see right off the bat is going to be speaker locations. There is virtually no room on either side of the TV cabinet for front speakers. A front corner is usually best for a subwoofer, but there isn’t one available. No good locations to the sides of the sofa for hanging rear speakers, and the soffit virtually nukes any chance for the rears being in-ceiling.

Regards,
Wayne


----------



## Gnitrops (Mar 22, 2015)

Thanks for your honest answer Wayne 

Looks like I'm in some trouble then. There's high potential for silly questions ahead, so I apologize in advance.

Let's start with the back: The wall where the couch stays has a little recess, which I plan on building a shelf, about the height of the couch. Would that be a good place for the rear speakers, or closer to the floor would be a better place?

Regarding the TV cabinet, the TV doesn't take all of its space, meaning there's room for a) placing at least one speaker on the cabinet (ugly?) and/or b) de-centering the TV cabinet in the wall, opening room for one speaker on the floor, besides the cabinet. As for the subwoofer, I don't see much options on top of my head :\

Equipment-wise, I started some digging. Found some good reviews on the Dayton Sub-800; Might be an option.


----------



## zieglj01 (Jun 20, 2011)

You spoke about meters - are you from the USA?

It is possible that you can wall mount some speakers

I would aim higher than the Dayton 800 sub.

What is the max budget for speakers and sub?


----------



## Gnitrops (Mar 22, 2015)

Hi zieglj

I'm in Europe, hence the meters thing 

My budget is flexible, I can aim higher but that would mean stretching the project along time. I'd point to 800-1000 USD for now, but I might raise it a bit if worthy.


----------



## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Due to placement issues, your limited budget, and worry about wrapping your head around the technology; I'd suggest looking at a good soundbar like Sonos or for a slightly higher price the Panorama from Bowers and Wilkins.

If you were to extend your budget 2-3x a passive CLR soundbar like the definitive technology SSA-42/50 with a Denon X2100 and pro-monitor 800 and an entry level sub would be a knockout and wouldn't force the issue of speaker placement. 

Out of curiosity is this a 1 or 2 story building/is there attic space above this room?


----------



## Gnitrops (Mar 22, 2015)

Its an one-story apartment. Would the soubdbar solution replace all the speakers in a 5.1? How?


----------



## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Yes and no...
Soundbars very in quality from scarcely better than TV sound to giving mid-range surround sound systems a run for their money. 

No soundbar will give you a surround sound experience as good as having 5.1+ speakers in the proper location (something most people with surround sound don't really do right anyway). If you have a local home theater (cinema) shop I suggest going in and giving a listen to what they have. 

A passive soundbar is a compromise. It is powered by an AVR (audio/video receiver) and replaces the front 3 speakers. They don't take up as much space as 3 separate speakers but don't sound as good dollar for dollar/pound for pound as conventional speakers for the same price. That's not to say they can't sound good, just to say you pay a premium for a good one and because it's a bit of a niche component.


----------



## Gnitrops (Mar 22, 2015)

I will check if some hifi stores have passiive soundbars up for testing. Im more keen on the proper-placed 5.1 though...


----------



## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Please post a picture of the space that is to the right of the door?


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Hello, and welcome!

What's on the other side of the couch? From the floor plan, it looks like a long wall. Why not swap walls? Put the seating next to the door, and the TV with gear and speakers on the long wall.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Kinda tough. For surrounds, I'd wall mount on the bump outs on either end of the couch. Farther out the better, 2 meters high. There are lots of wall brackets to all 90deg angle to the side and down toward the couch. Since your display is narrower than the stand, maybe look for something with a thinner profile, and wall mount them too. Maybe at the height right below the switches by the door. Center could go on the cabinet. You could even mount the display on the wall, and put all 3 front speakers on the cabinet, essentially 3 bookshelf speakers. Can't see the right side of the couch, but near field placement of a sub could work there. Pics of that side would help. .02.


----------



## Gnitrops (Mar 22, 2015)

Thanks for the input guys! Here are some more pics to answer your doubts.
Note that the couch is not in the correct position right now; It will be placed ~center of the wall, in front of cabinet. I can't change sides between cabinet and couch because the couch is bigger than the wall between door and pillar. To the right of the door we can still place a speaker, if that makes sense. (Its the "dining room" area) I can provide some more pics and blueprints if needed.

Of course, the stairs and the various random stuff around the area are to be ignored


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Kinda tough. For surrounds, I'd wall mount on the bump outs on either end of the couch. Farther out the better, 2 meters high. There are lots of wall brackets to all 90deg angle to the side and down toward the couch. Since your display is narrower than the stand, maybe look for something with a thinner profile, and wall mount them too. Maybe at the height right below the switches by the door. Center could go on the cabinet. You could even mount the display on the wall, and put all 3 front speakers on the cabinet, essentially 3 bookshelf speakers. Can't see the right side of the couch, but near field placement of a sub could work there. Pics of that side would help. .02.


^^^^ Both elegant and functional! Other than a soundbar, I'm going to stick my neck out and say this is the best solution.



Gnitrops said:


> Thanks for the input guys! Here are some more pics to answer your doubts.
> Note that the couch is not in the correct position right now; It will be placed ~center of the wall, in front of cabinet. I can't change sides between cabinet and couch because the couch is bigger than the wall between door and pillar. To the right of the door we can still place a speaker, if that makes sense. (Its the "dining room" area) I can provide some more pics and blueprints if needed.
> 
> Of course, the stairs and the various random stuff around the area are to be ignored


You're off to a good start by centering the couch on the TV/cabinet. The main front speakers need to be centered, too. Anything else and the sound suffers. Even if you could get the speakers symmetrical by placing the right one behind the door, they'd be too far from the screen. They need to be closer together to keep the front "stage" focused on/near the screen.


----------



## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

The way the pillars are situated certainly is not doing you any favors.
I was thinking flip the room too, but that wouldn't work at all.
Sorry, but I am stumped.
I don't have any recommendations to add to those already made.
A good soundbar may be the best option.


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

chashint said:


> I was thinking flip the room too, but that wouldn't work at all.


Charlie, buddy, ya beat me to it. Play into the long dimension? Think all the furniture rearrangement would go over well with the rest of the family?

Is there a "rest of the family," Gnitrops? Will the couch fit along the windows looking out on the trees, with the cabinet at the opposite end of the room. Are the stairs over there?


----------



## Gnitrops (Mar 22, 2015)

There's a rest of the family, yes. I like willis7469 idea, but need to check it with my wife: not sure she will be too keen on having speakers mounted on walls, but I have hope and hmm.. a strong case 
I'd like to keep the TV screen on the cabinet, mostly for aesthetical reasons.

The room rotation doesn't appeal much to me because that would make the TV straight in line with the house's main entrance, and the room walls are in transparent glass. I don't like to have the TV/back of the couch as the main thing I see when I get home.

I was hoping I could place the front speakers a bit further from the TV (one in the left pillar, the other to the right of the door), but from your feedback I'm now assuming that it's not a good idea, sound-wise?

Would having the subwoofer on the floor, right of the door, work fine? or perhaps left of the cabinet, aligned with the pillar?

I guess the good option will really be the wall mounts. Regarding the hardware, what speakers/avr/sub should I be looking at?


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Gnitrops said:


> There's a rest of the family, yes. I like willis7469 idea, but need to check it with my wife: not sure she will be too keen on having speakers mounted on walls, but I have hope and hmm.. a strong case  I'd like to keep the TV screen on the cabinet, mostly for aesthetical reasons.


Many experienced members have checked-in here, and the consensus is to wall-mount your front speakers if you insist on having the TV on the cabinet. You'll have a hard time finding wall-mounts narrow enough to fit and still be able to handle a reasonable amount of bass. You can't expect the sub to reach that high in frequency. Maybe one of the more experienced members can help you choose the actual hardware if you'd still like to try this out.



Gnitrops said:


> I was hoping I could place the front speakers a bit further from the TV (one in the left pillar, the other to the right of the door), but from your feedback I'm now assuming that it's not a good idea, sound-wise?


Putting speakers large, unsymmetrical distances from the screen and viewing position simply will not work for quality home theater, because the system will be unbalanced. You could expect the sound to "pull" to one side of the room or the other, and that will distract you from what's happening on-screen. The AVR in the system is designed to "steer" the sounds around the room from speaker to speaker in a certain way. But it can't do its job if the speaker positions don't follow standards. Everything in home theater follows a standard so you can enjoy movies the way they were intended.

I know the feeling of wanting to have a full-blown home theater system all at once. But you may need to wait for your next apartment/house. The soundbar option seems to be your best bet for now. Even if you do move unexpectedly, a high-end sound bar & sub system can go with you and fit almost anywhere. You could even use it as a second system in the bedroom when you upgrade!


----------



## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Definitive Technology SSA-50 http://www.definitivetech.com/products/mythos-ssa-50 

Definitive Technology Mythos Gem http://www.definitivetech.com/products/mythos-gem 

Definitive Technology SuperCube6000 http://www.definitivetech.com/products/supercube-6000 

Denon X2100 http://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/avreceiversht/avr2100w 

That's what I'm thinking makes since here.


----------



## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

Looks like a perfect job for the small NHT superzero's. Get 5 of those and use some wall mount brackets and put two on the back wall (not inside the indention where the couch is and aim them 90 degrees toward the couch and angled down a hair 

then put the center left and right all int he same line just below or above the TV... preferably below.

The sub... place whereever is convenient... your just looking for some low end fill.

You don't have a perfect space but you can make do with what you got. NHT superzero they are small and sound great, they will play loud but they won't rumble your room unfortunately but work well in small spaces.


----------



## Gnitrops (Mar 22, 2015)

I will check the SuperZeros, you made me curious. Wouldnt be more efective to place the rear speakers behind the couch instead of 90 degree beside it?


----------



## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

This is a common misnomer. In a 5.1 setup the surround speakers are 90-110° off center. Your primary seating position is the axis and the display/center speaker is 0°


----------



## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

We'll typically keep all drivers at ear hight with surrounds slightly elevated. This is ideal but esthetics play heavily into most homes' speaker placement.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

This is what rab-byte was saying. Since your couch is against the back wall, 90 deg is all you've got. I like to set them at 5-6' off the ground or 35(ish) degrees above the ear at seated height.


----------



## Janson777 (Apr 30, 2012)

Hi All,

I'm a long time reader and this is my first post ever. 

I agree with the set-up drawing from Willis7469. And it can give you nice results.
I have a friend who was in a similar situation like you and he has now a nice system that he is very happy with.

It is based on the Focal Dome speakers. (Have a look on the Focal website and search for "Dome" in home theater.) These are beautiful, flexible and very sturdy as they are made from alluminium. Focal makes really high-end stuff and it shows in their other line-ups.

My friend positioned the front speakers above his TV and the surrounds are above his head (his sofa is against the wall) and he has a good "being there" feeling. You could position them under your TV. Focal also offer stands to put the Dome speakers on, and that could suit you well if you want to position them next to your sofa and do not want to drill holes in your wall.

If you use the round sub woofer and use a color to match, will the rest of your family also be happy.

And as a surround amplifier, you have much choice. My friend uses an entry level Onkyo, but it sounds nice.


I also have another friend (I know....) who uses thet Focal Dome speakers as surround speakers with his Focal Berilium speakers, and even though the speakers are in a whole different league, it works very well as well.

Just my 2 cents...
Have fun!


----------



## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

I hope by "front speakers above the TV" you mean the Center channel speaker. I would not put Left and Right front speakers close to the center, above the TV, unless the TV is 70" or more wide. (And even then....) 

I suggest moving a sofa that's right against the back wall out a wee bit. Maybe put a narrow "sofa table" (sometimes called "console table") behind it for drinks, remotes, popcorn, whatever. This helps put the Surround Left and Surround Right speakers slightly behind the listener as recommended. (And then opens up the opportunity to maybe have a Surround Back, for a 6.1 vice 5.1 system.)  

My 2¢ as well.... :nerd:


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

And, depending how far off the back wall you get, it helps knock down boomy bloated bass modes too!
I only have a penny...:-(


----------



## TomFord (Jul 15, 2014)

For $800-$1000 here are my recommendations 
Front L & R. Pioneer Andrew Jones line. $220 for the pair, sound like $600-800 per pair
Surrounds: Pioneer Andrew Jones line again, model SP-BS22-LR are $100-120 per pair. Easily the best budget speaker made in the last decade if not ever. Amazon has a sale from time to time where you can get them for $60 a pair, towers for $100/pair, but this is a rare sale they do.
On the Andrew Jones line I don't recommend the center channel or the sub. Your center plays all the dialog and in many eyes the most important speaker of a surround sound system. I recommend a Polk Audio center to fulfill these needs. Prices ranging from $150-250 is the area I'd focus on. Ask around on the Polk, as there are many different models To find the best for your needs.
Subwoofer: NXG BAS 500, $249
Great quality. Operates from 18 Hz with authority 

You'd be at $580. A center would put you at or above 800. What's your movie/music %. You could pay more for a better front stage from a wide range e.g. KEF, Polk.
Sa me for Sub, SVS SB 2000, which is more powerful @400-500 I believe, and also sealed which is better for people who listen to music more. Provides more accurate bass. Movie lovers prefer ported as its better in action scenes with a thunderous boomer bass

To mount your surrounds, I highly recommend these (link below) from Amazon. I now own 4 pairs. In mounting them in a new location recently, I believe you may be able to use an extender arm where the speaker will come out an additional 12-16 inches over the 8 inches they do standard. Would call the company to inquire. These are excellent. I've mounted them upside down, sideways, and it's always been a secure mount that rotates 180°, as well as tilts 0-15°. These would solve the issues you appear to have near the couch. 

http://www.amazon.com/VideoSecu-Cla...428009830&sr=8-1&keywords=speaker+wall+mounts

To give you a better sense of the Pioneers I mentioned. Those 2 models are the only speakers the DIY guys admit they can't make for what they cost. They say they can make any other speaker on the market cheaper than what they're sold at, with the exception of the Tower and Bookshelf which really says a lot in my opinion. After opening them up I understand.

They are one of the few products you have to get in your house to truly understand the insane value they are. I learned that the speakers on display at Best Buy (other retailers as well) are hooked up in a way where the lowest costing (in this case the Pioneer SP-BS22-LR) were the most quiet. As you click the next model up in price to hear, they play louder. They have them rigged up where they aren't receiving the same signal. Doing deceiving advertising like ALL AVR companies do with exception being Emotiva. For a power amplifier I wouldn't recommend another brand above the quality you get for the price of Emotiva, yet I would go with a different company on a AVR. I tried quite a few brands and the Onkyo was the best in my opinion. The fact that AVR are what the company prime focus is on, and not thousands of other items like Sony, Yamaha, Pioneer, etc seems to make the difference. 
Yamaha Advantage (sp?) series is what I'd recommend after Onkyo 

Lastly, if you do start looking for an AVR, this is a very important. Whatever the "watts per channel" is incorrect. e.g. they say 100 watts per channel. No, in reality that's 100 watts with 1 channel driven. After a min 30 minutes warm up period. 100 watts rating into 5 channels is 60-65 watach channel. Stereophile.com Soundandvision.com, and Audioholics.com provide some great test bench #'s


----------



## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Someone is feeding you a line.
The Pioneer speakers are quieter because they are less sensitive than most of the other speakers BB sells.
Lots of folk rave about the Pioneers, to my ear they sound like what they are....an entry level speaker.
Not knocking them for that, they compete in their price bracket but if there is a Fry's in your area the Infinity Primus speakers are on sale for less pretty regularly and to my ear they are better.
Making them 'Andrew Jones' signature speakers was an absolute stroke of marketing genius by Pioneer.


----------



## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

rab-byte said:


> This is a common misnomer. In a 5.1 setup the surround speakers are 90-110° off center. Your primary seating position is the axis and the display/center speaker is 0°





rab-byte said:


> We'll typically keep all drivers at ear height with surrounds slightly elevated. This is ideal but esthetics play heavily into most homes' speaker placement.





willis7469 said:


> This is what rab-byte was saying. Since your couch is against the back wall, 90 deg is all you've got. I like to set them at 5-6' off the ground or 35(ish) degrees above the ear at seated height.


More diagrams. I stole a couple from my Yamaha' manual. Basic 5.1 setup again.










And 6.1 or 7.1 (6.1 just uses a single surround back speaker).











// Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


----------



## TomFord (Jul 15, 2014)

chashint said:


> Someone is feeding you a line.
> The Pioneer speakers are quieter because they are less sensitive than most of the other speakers BB sells.
> Lots of folk rave about the Pioneers, to my ear they sound like what they are....an entry level speaker.
> Not knocking them for that, they compete in their price bracket but if there is a Fry's in your area the Infinity Primus speakers are on sale for less pretty regularly and to my ear they are better.
> Making them 'Andrew Jones' signature speakers was an absolute stroke of marketing genius by Pioneer.


Not stroking a line. They are entry level, if his budget is 800-1000 entry level is what he's going to get for the most part. For the budget I'd put the emphasis on the best quality speakers he can get for the front stage FL, C, FR. 
Doesn't matter if they call them the Andrew Jones line as far as I'm concerned. When I got them I'd never heard the name before and outside the Pioneer speakers don't know/care who the guy is. 
Bottom line for $120 they're an excellent deal with good quality. 
And for someone getting they're first system or wanting a pair of bookshelves on a lower budget I believe they're the best for most.

Now Pioneer customer service is one of the worst nightmares you will ever endure, but I digress


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

chashint said:


> ...Lots of folk rave about the Pioneers, to my ear they sound like what they are....an entry level speaker. Not knocking them for that, they compete in their price bracket but if there is a Fry's in your area the Infinity Primus speakers are on sale for less pretty regularly and to my ear they are better. Making them 'Andrew Jones' signature speakers was an absolute stroke of marketing genius by Pioneer.


Thanks for that! Competition in that price bracket is intense, so auditioning is even more important than usual. It's nice to own special-moniker anything. Positive formal reviews reinforce pride-of-ownership, which can subliminally make a product sound even better. Listen, listen, and listen more before you choose! Fair comparison can be rough at a dealership though. Beware of unscrupulous sales pitches. Can't remember which thread on our site, but it mentioned how one dealer set up speakers to play increasingly louder. Our hearing favors louder sound, even subtle changes. So the dealer was able to stack the deck toward their targeted "special."


----------



## TomFord (Jul 15, 2014)

Beware of unscrupulous sales pitches. Can't remember which thread on our site, but it mentioned how one dealer set up speakers to play increasingly louder. Our hearing favors louder sound, even subtle changes. So the dealer was able to stack the deck toward their targeted "special."[/QUOTE]


Good point. Best approach in my opinion is to try a few different models in your house. Most salesmen will try and pressure you to decide the day you walk in. Feeding bull like this deal is only available today. Call their bluff. Ask for a demo, which most will allow, and try more than one brand/pair for comparison. 

Unless you're looking at more expensive gear Best Buy is good for trying out various models. Klipsch are the best they offer before you have to deal with the commission based salesmen of the store in the Magnolia room. Klipsch are very good speakers. The new improved horn they introduced on the R-15 is impressive. Simple change to the standard horn. I've been surprised at how much small changes like that can increase or decrease the performance in home audio. 



After building a cabinet to get some woodworking experience I built the same enclosure for my NXG BAS 500. Using 3/4 inch HDF, making the baffle thicker, and adding internal bracing the subwoofer sounds significantly better. The baffle for a sub is not easy for a rookie woodworker like myself. Mainly due to lack of tools. As with any work I've done in the garage, having the right tools makes all the difference. 
Learned there are many shops that will let you rent time at a low cost (under 20$ for a few hours) or build it for you. They quoted me 15$ for the baffle. Outside of that it's a very simple build. If you don't have a 500$ + sub, this is something I highly recommend. Wood cost me $30 and had enough extra to do 2 cabinets. About $20 on glue, and paint. It sounds 50-60% better than the original


----------



## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

Tom raises a couple good points, though I may disagree with some of the characterizations he's made. 

You should always listen before you buy. Sometimes a deal is too good to pass up but as a rule listen to the speakers.

Bring your own discs and pick out ahead of time what tracks you want to listen to. 

Listen to the same tracks on all the speakers you audition. 

Know your budget and existing gear you have

don't let a salesman waist your time and don't waist their time either [more on this later]

Try to go earlier in the day because their store will be less busy. (Your hearing is also at its best when you wake up)

Don't buy that day. Come back 1-2 more times and give the speakers another listen. Bring anyone else involved. Spouse, kids, whomever might have some influence/insight. 

I think 3-5 tracks is usually good to audition. One with good vocals (male & female), acoustic recordings, simple tracks, detailed complex movements, and something with a good deep low end. If whoever is helping you wants to play something give them a shot. 

Control the volume. If it's too loud/quiet ask to have it adjusted or do it yourself. 


[salesmen rant]
Pick your salesman as best you can!!! Find someone who knows what their talking about. Find someone you feel you can trust. Find someone willing to help not just someone trying to close you from the moment you walk through the door. 

I like commissioned salesmen because they have skin in the game. They tend to know more about their field than hourly staff (though this isn't always the cases). I also like to know that, if I've spent a few hours of someone's day on multiple occasions, they're getting rewarded for helping me. 

A good relationship with a salesman can be rewarding. If you've build a good working relationship they can give you the heads up when that particular piece of gear goes clearance or when they just got a return that has all the parts. Your salesman can be a knowledge base and sounding board.

Honestly don't expect many shops to bring out too many floor models for "in-home"/test drives. They'll do it; but probably only if you're looking at the big money über items (Syntheses, Wilson, CLX, etc..) or bookshelf speakers that are easy to transport (assuming you have a good relationship with the salesman). 

Don't waist the sales guys time! I've been in sales and it sucks to have someone take all day auditioning speakers in your room only to tell you they're going to buy them online or 2nd hand and that they "just wanted to hear them". Thanks jerk! In the 2 hours you've been monopolizing the listening room and my time I could have talked with 2-3 more people and maybe have been able to sell something. In the time you've been using this room the other salesmen haven't gotten to use the room with their customers. I know not everyone buys and I strongly feel you should be sure about your purchase before making it. All that said don't be a jerk and waist people's time. Let whoever is helping you know what you're looking for. Tell them upfront that you're not going to buy today. You'll see real quick if this is someone worth your time (especially if you came in early while the store is slow). 

I guess my point is that there is an etiquette to shopping and some people just don't have it. If you've ever waited tables you know exactly what I mean. 

[/rant]


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

:T *More great input!. I'd like to add my 2¢:*



rab-byte said:


> ....You should always listen before you buy....Bring your own discs and pick out ahead of time what tracks you want to listen to. Listen to the same tracks on all the speakers you audition.


Pre-purchase auditioning is more important with speakers than any other gear because it contributes the most to your system's sonic signature. It may help if you transfer your demo material to a single CD, memory stick, or smartphone. Choose well-know material for your demo tracks, and transfer them in their entirety. 

Limit auditioning--at least initially--to less than a minute for each demo track, preferably 30 seconds or so. Also try to listen to the same track on all pairs before moving on to the next track. Why? Because our auditory memory is poor; something akin to our memory of pain. After a time, we can remember general feelings, but specifics elude us. Use longer comparisons after you've eliminated the obvious underachievers. Those would be the ones that stand out or immediately impress. They're usually designed with a mid-bass hump to give the illusion of deep bass, and/or a tipped-up high end to give the illusion of detail.



rab-byte said:


> ....(Your hearing is also at its best when you wake up)


onder: Ummm, okay. I've not heard that one before. I'd agree listening skills might be enhanced by way of sheer excitement at the thought of new gear.



rab-byte said:


> ....Don't buy that day. Come back 1-2 more times and give the speakers another listen.


:yeahthat: Excellent! First impressions can be deceiving. Give your hearing and emotions a rest. 



rab-byte said:


> Control the volume. If it's too loud/quiet ask to have it adjusted or do it yourself.


:sneeky: Where's that can-of-worms icon? Different belief systems, as well as numerous technical issues, come into play here. A whole separate thread can be spent on the topic. Maybe it's already been covered. I'd just like to point out that:
We're sensitive to even very small differences (0.5dB or less) in volume. The louder of two musical selections will usually always win.
Differences in speaker sensitivity will cause volume changes (see above) when switching between them unless the switch box is up to snuff. Be on the alert!
While every song has a "correct" volume at which it sounds best, how do you coordinate volume differences between songs when auditioning?



rab-byte said:


> ....[salesmen rant]
> I guess my point is that there is an etiquette to shopping and some people just don't have it. If you've ever waited tables you know exactly what I mean.[/rant]


*Support your local Bricks and Mortar (B&M) store!! Support your local Bricks and Mortar (B&M) store!! Support your local Bricks and Mortar (B&M) store!!*


----------



## rab-byte (Feb 1, 2011)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Ummm, okay. I've not heard that one before. I'd agree listening skills might be enhanced by way of sheer excitement at the thought of new gear. :yeahthat: Excellent!


It's true as the day goes on and you're subjected to loud noises like traffic or screaming kids your hearing isn't as good. Ever notice how the volume on your TV/stereo creeps up over the course of the day? Our hearing gets better after we ready our ears. 



> [*]We're sensitive to even very small differences (0.5dB or less) in volume. The louder of two musical selections will usually always win.


Typically 3dB is constitutes a noticeable difference in volume. Yes we will hear a .5db difference but to recognize that as a different volume it usually take a little more than that. 

If you think about light perception. We can see many shades of grey scale but an overall shift in that scale is less likely perceived. Think dynamic vs. native contrast ratios.


----------



## Gnitrops (Mar 22, 2015)

Auditioning my future system-to-be is crucial, I believe  Not an easy task where I live, since there aren't many hi-fi stores around and the ones I know, don't have much equipment avaliable for immediate auditioning. (I am living in Europe)

I'm having a tough time with the wall-mounted speakers; My wife doesn't like the idea - at all. I might get some speaker stands instead, for the rear speakers.

There is also another constraint: The TV cabinet has only room for equipment with a height of 15cm tops (that's ~5.9"). This impacts the choice of the AVR and center speaker. I had Dali Zensor 5.1 and Q Acoustics 2000i on my shortlist but had to cross them off due to that.

I guess I should worry with the speakers first, but I laid my eyes on the Marantz NR-1504 and I guess that would do fine as the AVR. Found good reviews, is cheaper and less buggy than the NR-1605 and I don't need the network extras since I will be having a Roku/Raspberry Pi/Minix box in the system. I suspect even a NR-1403 would do, they are a bit harder to find though.

For the speakers, I'm a bit worried: how "bad" are the entry level speakers for a non-audiophile-yet? For something ~600$ what can I do that's worth the price?
It even got me thinking: perhaps get a better 3.1 system now and get a pair of entry-level surrounds for the back?


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

How about the TV on the wall, and the speakers on the av stand? Or TV on the stand with a riser under it so it doesn't have to go on the wall, and speakers will still fit under/in front of it. No invasive surgery! This will likely change the personality of the speakers a little,and you may want something on the stand to help refraction. I would expect some sibilance. Personally I'd stink up the place a little more to get the surrounds where I want them, but we all pick our battles. No offense. Was your question regarding 600 dollars, referring to speakers only?


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

rab-byte said:


> It's true as the day goes on and you're subjected to loud noises like traffic or screaming kids your hearing isn't as good.... <snip>
> 
> Typically 3dB is constitutes a noticeable difference in volume. Yes we will hear a .5db difference but to recognize that as a different volume it usually take a little more than that.... <snip>


My first audiophile cartoon showed a house guest standing in front of a huge rack of stereo equipment. The guest says something to the owner, who replies, "Noise reduction? Sure, I sent the kids out to play." :rofl: 
And yeah, it takes about 1dB for use to notice a difference. Some say it takes 6dB to become twice as loud.



willis7469 said:


> How about the TV on the wall, and the speakers on the av stand? Or TV on the stand with a riser under it so it doesn't have to go on the wall, and speakers will still fit under/in front of it. No invasive surgery! This will likely change the personality of the speakers a little,and you may want something on the stand to help refraction. I would expect some sibilance. Personally I'd stink up the place a little more to get the surrounds where I want them, but we all pick our battles. No offense. Was your question regarding 600 dollars, referring to speakers only?


Your answer sounds familiar to me, but I'm too lazy right now to go back through the thread (it's after midnight). *Would in-ceilings be a good choice for the surrounds in this situation?*

And I'm just curious... Would getting rid of the 1st reflection off the shelf improve speech clarity? I guess there's not much you can do about sibilance from screen reflections.


----------



## Gnitrops (Mar 22, 2015)

willis7469 said:


> How about the TV on the wall, and the speakers on the av stand? Or TV on the stand with a riser under it so it doesn't have to go on the wall, and speakers will still fit under/in front of it. No invasive surgery! This will likely change the personality of the speakers a little,and you may want something on the stand to help refraction. I would expect some sibilance. Personally I'd stink up the place a little more to get the surrounds where I want them, but we all pick our battles. No offense. Was your question regarding 600 dollars, referring to speakers only?


I'm not sure I will be OK with the visual impact of having the speakers wall mounted either, tbh. That's why I asked if getting stands and placing them there would be of noticeable difference, sound-wise. Visually, the stands would get me more continuity and I could move them if/when I change the room.

As for the TV, it currently sits on its stand that comes with it, which also gives it a little angle. I'm quite fond of it and don't want to see it go; Placing the TV higher isn't an option, so I'm stuck with the center/AV on that place. Would the sound be crippled much if the center is in the cabinet?

Meanwhile, I got the remodelation works done and the furniture is back in the room. I will post a couple of updates picks later today.


Cheers


----------



## Chromejob (Feb 19, 2015)

Quick personal thoughts from another dilettante:

Speakers on stands increase your flexibility, particularly if you are struggling with where to put the surrounds.

I have a center above my tv. It's in a cabinet shelf, but pushed forward as far as it will go, to eliminate boxiness. I've read that having the speaker above the display not underneath is preferable, and I concur. 

Spend on getting the best speakers you can afford, even if means only having 2.1 or 3.1 initially. The quality of the speakers directly effects the quality of the system, more than most other components. A boxy, or tinny, or anemic sounding 5.1/6.1 system will not please as much as a vibrant, realistic sounding 3.1 system. The center channel is more important than others, as it is doing much more than, say, the surrounds, and carries voices that should should authentic. Generally, getting a center that's equal to the front mains is recommended.

AFTERTHOUGHT What I mean by flexibility with surrounds, and I remember it's something I've done ... is having them out of the way on stands, and you can then position them where you want for a special "movie night." Wall mounts (great positioning and being out of the way) are fixed (unless you can quick disconnect them, but why would you), but on stands you can pull them out, then put them away after the screening.


----------



## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Chromejob said:


> Quick personal thoughts from another dilettante:
> 
> Speakers on stands increase your flexibility, particularly if you are struggling with where to put the surrounds.
> 
> ...


Not arguing, just trying to understand...
If you're struggling with location of the surrounds only because of WAF, then in-ceilings would appease that situation. But like you said, flexibility is better with stands. II totally agree with importance of speaker quality, and of maybe getting surrounds later. I should know. My surround set up leaves a lot to be desired. Can we do a quick fly-by? Are in-ceilings that much of a compromise? How do people that use them plan positioning? Obviously, you don't want to tear up your ceiling over and over finding good spots!


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Gnitrops, I do appreciate that hanging speakers on the wall is not for you. You're not alone. Center, above or below will matter little. I've also used both, and the biggest impact comes from the difference in tweeter height. Ideally you'll want them within 12" of each other so the horizontal field is consistent. As chromejob said, moving the CC as far forward as you can will help, but in a cab "can" become boomy and muddy. For surrounds on stands, I don't find it ideal, but it will still work fine. In ceiling I feel would be too close to the rear vertical plane , unless they could go farther out the sides. This would help localization, but then u risk off axis tonal issues. Looking forward to more pics.


----------



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Hi Lou! My feelings for in ceiling speakers are more like when you need an extra kid to play, and there's only one left to choose, or you don't play. IMO, part of why they suffer is sound mixers do so with this in mind.(see pic)
When you change the point of origin, (and therefore destination) then playback is untrue and more distracting than anything. Obviously most systems have more than a few compromises but IMO speaker placement is at least as important in surround systems as two channel. Dipole/bipole (I don't prefer either) are loved by many. In the op's area they might be best too. It's just taste but I prefer the accuracy. And for music in surround, I prefer monopoles too. Sorry for the lack of articulation. Brain is still foggy. And I can't fit that much on my phone while typing.


----------

