# A Warning to Those Just Starting Out



## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

I spent a wonderful evening last night with some guys from church. The company and food were great. After dinner, we adjourned to the living room to watch an episode of "The Pacific", which is extraordinary.

My enjoyment was tempered by the audio. I noticed our guest had the sound turned up pretty loud, louder than I normally set my home theater. I quickly realized it was that loud so we could understand the dialog. Even then, there were times the voices were muffled and unclear. By the end of the episode, I was worn out from the sound. 

I know he paid a lot for his speakers. I know how much their systems run. I can also name off the top of my head a half dozen speaker manufacturers who offer a much better product at less cost.

His speaker system? BOSE

We have Ascends in our home theater. I told my wife about my experience. She remarked that she can hardly watch TV at other folks houses because of the inferior audio.

I know there are some newcomers here who have been subjected to BOSE marketing and consider them a viable choice. Please, please listen to alternatives. Also, listen to BOSE in an actual home setting, not in the store where they manipulate the display to make them sound better than they actually are. 

It only took an hour and a half for me to become fatigued listening to them. I can't imagine trying to live with them. I don't normally bash equipment, but this was a truly horrid experience.


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## Chicagorep (May 2, 2010)

No highs or lows it must be Bose.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
Sometimes I feel like Bose is a Third Rail. There are literally millions of people who equate it with quality, accurate sound. Sadly, the few times Bose Speakers have been Bench Tested, the results are beyond disappointing showing that major parts of the Frequency Range are not reproduced.

However, with such a large installed base of Customers, it really is a difficult subject as these people have spent thousands of Dollars on this stuff. To really dismiss it can honestly hurt People's feelings.

I do my best to point out that there are quality alternatives that cost less and sound better. However, I really try to do this with sensitivity.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Derry (Apr 10, 2010)

agree with JJ, when folks ask what I think about Bose, I ask them if they have audition other systems since there are so many quality ones available,, some will still purchase as the demo they heard the liked and have no desire for a full blown audio system,,

years past I worked with a QC person that was in QC at Bose and personally knew Dr. Bose,, Steve indicated if something was not correct it would never ship and would not be given to anyone, it was scrapped as Dr. Bose did not want sub-par Bose gear on the street,, he also raved about the quality checks & controls they did on all the gear shipped and the lab they had for audio testing,, he never had a negative to state during his tenure working for Dr. Bose, just praise,, 

I do have a Bose wave radio in our bedroom and the sound from it can surprise ya,, of course I have a Marantz SR9600 receiver in my HT,,

Derry


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> To really dismiss it can honestly hurt People's feelings.


My friend that I visited is not the only person I know with BOSE. He and most of the others are happy with it. I'd never in a million years point out the deficiencies in their systems.

Unfortunately, when I've discreetly asked my friends about their choice, it turns out they were pretty much a blind buy. They really didn't listen to anything else and pretty much bought on name recognition.

I'm also aware that many couples (not just wives) aren't interested in having audio equipment plainly visible. The small size of the speakers is a big selling factor. They really think that BOSE has some magic technology that allows them to defy the laws of physics and get a "big" sound from those small speakers. Lord knows BOSE has spent enough money carefully spreading that perception.

If someone listens to BOSE in the home, listens to other systems, especially in the home and decides for whatever reason that BOSE is the way to go, I have no problem. It's the uninformed purchase that I want to warn against.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

I think the Bose hatred is misplaced. Very few home theater companies survive. They give Americans exactly what they want.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

I think Bose is ok for certain things and delivers those things to certain people. Before I realised there were massive online audio communities, before I knew about system eq and ways of measuring this, and before I really knew what I was doing, I had a Bose Lifestyle system. Regardless of technical know how, I knew what sound I liked and why. Within a year I really didnt like the Bose system for extended critcal listening at all. Now I know why.

I think the main issue the educated have with Bose though, is more about the price and claims than the product.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

> I think the main issue the educated have with Bose though, is more about the price and claims than the product.


You nailed the nail on the head!! I take issue with their claims more than their price. :bigsmile:
I try to be careful about BOSE bashing because some many people think they are great and I really don't want to offend anyone. 
For some people they are the perfect speaker. They make sound and the have a high WIF ( Wife Acceptance Factor).

Matt


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## goodwill559 (Apr 4, 2010)

My first surround sound system was Dolby Pro Logic back in the early 90's, and it involved Bose. Due to sound quality issues, I abandoned it and stuck with a stereo setup for many years. Sure, the Bose sounded pretty good in Best Buy, but watching an entire movie having to listen to Bose sound for 90 minutes at a time?

The Bose speakers were replaced by a pair of PSB Century 500i's, which I still have, and I kept the Onkyo receiver which I still have and use to power the L&R rears for my 7.1 setup.

I admit to telling people that Bose sucks, but I always add that it's my opinion and advise people that if they listen and compare, they may come to the same conclusion.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

I invite people over for a demo of my system. That's always enough to make them reconsider wasting their money on a Bose system. Not one single person has bought Bose after hearing my system on music and movies. I've even convinced two people to buy a Cambridge SoundWorks radio instead of a Bose Soundwave. Both of them are very happy with the sound and the much lower cost. They tell others.

SoundWorks i765 $249.99
It plays AM/FM, CD's, DVD's etc, has an iPod dock and a built in sub. 

This comes back to something we all should be doing; Exposing as many people as possible to decent sound is the only way to add converts. Most everyone has a reasonable TV with at least a DVD player. Let them hear for themselves how much they're missing with those pitiful speakers built into their TV's. It's also a great opportunity to educate them about what's better than Bose.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
To me, it is not about misplaced hatred. Rather, it is the practices of a Corporation which honestly spends more on Advertising and Litigation than they do on R&D. 

The goal of any Speaker to me is to accurately reproduce the Source and the Frequency Response therein. This is something which Bose Acoustimass Systems utterly fail at. Rather, through sonic trickery, they empathize certain frequencies which give the impression of full sound.

When Sound & Vision tested the Acoustimass System, it finally showed just how much of the Frequency Range is not represented. This is especially true of the "Bass Module" which comprises of (3) 5.5" untreated Paper Woofers in a 7th Order Bandpass Confiuration. This Module is only capable of extension down to 46 Hz. Moreover, the Module is active up to 202 Hz. Compared to conventional Subwoofers, this is stratospherically high. High enough to where you can actually playback a DVD without the Satellite Cubes and still get sound.

At the end of the day, a Purchaser is left with small Plastic Cubes with tiny, untreated Paper Cone Drivers and a Bass Module which does not come close to reaching Full Range (20 Hz). And even more unsettling, there is a fairly large gap in Frequency between where the Cubes cutoff and the Bass Module takes over.
Cheers,
JJ


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

To be fair, there are lots of speakers that are not even as good as Bose out there. Bose gets so much hate because they have done a great job of marketing a product that is technically and constucted very mediocre. The sell a story, a uniqueness, a difference. You can sell anything if you have a good story that distinguishes you from the rest, regardless of the technical merits. Consumerism is about much more than the technology. It is far more about selling an idea, no matter how little those who have a better understanding of the science feel that it is irrelevant or just plain wrong.

Whether we like it or not, the electronics industry is driven by both a desire for better products AND the desire to buy something that satisfies needs that have nothing to do with real performance, and are often manufactured by marketing. Without the latter, we would not have many of the product that we do, even the ones which are technically far better justified than Bose. They have their place in the market and make lots of people happy. If they did not they would not exist. Does that mean that those same people might not be happier with another product? Perhaps, but the question is pointless.


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

Jungle Jack said:


> At the end of the day, a Purchaser is left with small Plastic Cubes with tiny, untreated Paper Cone Drivers and a Bass Module which does not come close to reaching Full Range (20 Hz). And even more unsettling, there is a fairly large gap in Frequency between where the Cubes cutoff and the Bass Module takes over.
> Cheers,
> JJ


My post was motivated by my discomfort. I don't regard myself as an audiophile with golden ears. I had a visceral reaction to the sound and was wondering why I was uncomfortable and agitated. In addition to frequency problems, I'm betting the THD is pretty atrocious too, helping to explain my pain.

Two nights after my unfortunate experience my wife and I watched "Sherlock Holmes" in our home theater. I was about to say that we didn't have it cranked up nearly as much, but I'd be interested in an SPL reading. I wouldn't be surprised if peaks were fairly close, it's just the sound is so much cleaner. I didn't have to strain to hear the dialog. I wasn't wrung out at the end of an evening of watching.

Yes, there's lot's of folks who might be very happy with Bose. I'm only hoping that I can expand the horizons of a few and prevent them from a blind buy assuming Bose gets its market share from the quality of its products.

I was about to add that people do a head to head comparison, but they can't. There's a reason Bose displays are standalone. Bose dealers have to sign an agreement that they will not do head to head comparisons with other speaker systems. That alone should raise some questions.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Jungle Jack said:


> And even more unsettling, there is a fairly large gap in Frequency between where the Cubes cutoff and the Bass Module takes over.
> Cheers,
> JJ


To the trained ear, this gap is blindingly obvious. When I owned one of these system, my ear wasnt that well trained, although I knew if I enjoyed something or not. Over the course of 12 months this gap became very obvious to me, and was what got me searching online, and onto forums about 4 years ago. I think anyone who listens critically will discover this for themselves. The thing that gets me, is that for the money, you dont even get the connectivity, or spec of an entry level AVR. I could handle the sound if the spec was there, and it does make you wander what the money goes on (advertising anyone?), but this isnt the case either. Finally, their own processing seems a bit out, this may well be down to missing frequencies, but its certainly inconsistent in its reproduction.

As ever, my opinion is not that Bose are bad, just expensive.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

I think part of the problem is exacerbated by the internet. People will "research" speakers instead of getting off their lazy duff and actually listening to something. There are always questions from newbies who have "researched" this that and the other thing by looking on the internet for some unknown persons opinion. They have narrowed their options down to two or three speakers from a list of 10, none of which they have ever heard. They want advice on which of the three finalists to buy never having listened to anything.
If more people actually did some comparative listening a lot less Bose would be sold. That's why I invite prospective audio buyers over for a demo of my system. After giving them a quick course in "Audio 101" I tell them to trust their own ears. Interestingly, none that I've "tutored" have bought Bose although in most instances they had initially asked me about Bose.


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## Syd26147 (Jul 4, 2008)

> a Corporation which honestly spends more on Advertising and Litigation than they do on R&D.


 I don't know what they spend on R&D.
They are an enormous company with over $2 Billion in annual revenue.
It has been reported that they have already spent over $500 million on advertising the "Radio".
When an article detailing the theory of a type of bandpass box was published, there was a threat of litigation.
Often their products seem to reflect a goal of fashion acceptance, as noted. Small units that fit decor.
There is a rationalization for the designs that pointed the speakers away ( 801 901 ), but it was based upon Dr Bose philosophy of implementation. ( I never cared for the sound nor felt the implementation was valid ).
While it is popular to bash Bose, Hypothetically speaking I doubt many would change their business model as it has been successful for decades, where hundreds of audio/speaker companies have come and gone.

Syd


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

Syd26147 said:


> I don't know what they spend on R&D.
> 
> When an article detailing the theory of a type of bandpass box was published, there was a threat of litigation.
> Syd


When I watch the red and green sounds traversing through the radio on the commercial, I can't help but think of folded horn. Victor did a great implementation of the folded horn theory with their later Victrola Orthophonic models, that sounded really good for an acoustical player. That was 1924-1925. So much for "waveguide" technology. Besides, $600 for a clock radio? Really?


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Syd26147 said:


> I don't know what they spend on R&D.
> They are an enormous company with over $2 Billion in annual revenue.
> It has been reported that they have already spent over $500 million on advertising the "Radio".
> When an article detailing the theory of a type of bandpass box was published, there was a threat of litigation.
> ...


Hello,
While there certainly have been A/V Manufacturers of all varieties to cease operations, the number of Companies building excellent Speakers is staggering.

Just to name a few, Focal, B&W, Dynaudio, Thiel, Wilson, Martin Logan, Revel, Infinity, Klipsch have all been in operation for decades. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. These Companies are still going without Advertising in Parade Magazine.

And that really is the thing, the places where Bose advertises are rarely the same places that most A/V Companies ever do. Without doubt, it works. I do wonder just how much of it is WAF as it is awfully tempting to have Speakers that are barely visible and an easily stashed away "Bass Module".

To me, it is not about snobbery. It actually is the inverse with millions believing that what they have is beyond reproach. All the same, Bose makes it next to impossible for Publications to Bench Test their wares and are quite litigious.

Where I have issue is the pricing for what you get. Untreated Paper Drivers (Treated or Doped Paper is actually an excellent Driver material), Plastic Enclosures, etc... 

My former Acura 3.2 TL had a Bose System which I gutted replacing it with Focal Separates, JL 12W7 PowerWedge, and JL Amplification. When I looked at the OEM Speakers, I could not believe just how shoddy the Speakers were. Untreated Paper, super light weight, and given the modular setup you have to gut it unless you just want to add a Subwoofer by tapping the Rear Speaker leads.
Cheers,
JJ


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## JBL Fan (May 1, 2010)

_ Wife Acceptance Factor)._

I sold speakers for a living and yes Bose also; no speaker sales = no job and no rent money. As soon as a guy walked in with his wife and wanted small speakers (no towers or bookshelves) - what else is there? You guessed it Bose.

I think Bose is way overpriced for what you get but it does add something to the market IHO. It's never harsh or brittle or accurate but I sometimes like the sound. However, I wouldn't buy it for myself.

The Bose theory is an interesting one though. For those that don't know:

Dr. Bose did detailed measurements of live events and studied the whole idea behind - _what makes live sound - sound live to a human being._ After extensive measurments he found out that only 10% of music actually comes directly from the instruments to the listeners ear, the rest of the sound is a reflection of one kind or another. So he set about to design a speaker to replicate this observation, the famous 901. Nine speakers face the wall and one (or 10%) face the listener. 

Keep in mind, the human ear is NOT linear.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I think for the most part of people who owns BOSE are conscious of there surroundings and are happier with the smaller style speakers and to them the rather large outlay is spent wisely, but to the people who know there pitfalls we stay away from them.

I admit many years ago I bought a BOSE acoustimass system as I was quite taken in by the sound but did not have any other experience on surround speaker system until I heard a proper one installed in a customers house that I was installing cable TV, it was back in 1992 when Laser Disc was the best source and boy did this guy have an impressive set up, and remember saying I wan one of those and after many thousand of pounds later I have a system I really am impressed with, and that's both music and movies!


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## Syd26147 (Jul 4, 2008)

> Focal, B&W, Dynaudio, Thiel, Wilson, Martin Logan, Revel, Infinity, Klipsch have all been in operation for decades. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.


 Most of those names were not in existence in 1964, and when you look at the more exclusive target market and product line of those revered names, the berg' melts considerably.
My point was that Bose has managed to keep a basic design since 1968, and that speaker companies ( who produced respectable designs near the bose price/point ) that were definitely superior in performance are not in existence today.
( Occasionally I come across old equipment directories from the 70's and listed there can be found a couple of hundred companies who at that time made cabs, but no longer - couldn't find a market niche. )
I agree as mentioned: they marketed products that had placed fashion over fidelity. Their emphasis is primarily to blend in to decor for aesthetics. Small units that promised a modicum of fidelity.
When I ask what motivated a Bose purchase, often a reply is like "I just wanted something that had pretty good sound - but I'm not a Hi-Fi Nut". 
I'm speculating that this forum's audience is not what Bose is after. It is the Parade demographic not Stereophile.
From an standpoint of aesthetics, many are not with happy with monolithic speakers in their house, regardless of how good they sound. If it doesn't go with the decor, or isn't small enough to hide, it's not acceptable. I've shown pictures of very expensive speaker design to some, and often heard comments about how they resemble coffins or robots.

The "89/11" premise that Bose based his 901 design was one that didn't fit my needs. His assessment was ( I believe ) based upon the sonics of a 10th row seat at a performance center like the MET.
With 89% of sound being reflected; that places a greater importance on what is behind and to the sides of this design in a room.
To my ears they are loud but offer no imaging.
Since very few recordings are made bi-aurally at the 10 row of an opera house, the premise didn't make sense for my needs. Many recordings are artificial constructs created in a studio using a diversity of equipment, acoustically much different than 10th row.
Syd


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## JBL Fan (May 1, 2010)

> Many recordings are artificial constructs created in a studio using a diversity of equipment, acoustically much different than 10th row


All good points.

Mixed recordings are the interpretation of the man mixing the music - the mixers musical ear. Is this accuracy of the raw recording or a commercially promising product?


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## Syd26147 (Jul 4, 2008)

> Is this accuracy of the raw recording or a commercially promising product?


Owners of old Beatles album from the early 60's know the severe panning that was used to prove the stereo was working, not for performance reality.
Casualties of the Quad wars of the 70's suffered through extreme panning again to prove it works, not for accuracy.
Today I have heard recording engineers admit to mixing to sound as good as possible on average CD players.
Since audio reproduction has evolved from one sound source to numerous to get closer to 3d accuracy.
A better way to distribute sound sources would be to mix and listen in this.
http://www.aip.org/pt/nov99/locsound.html

Instead of putting a bunch of small drivers in a small box; they need to distribute them.

Syd


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
We live in the Age of the iPod where for so many, listening to Music has become a truly solitary one. Sadly, we also live in an age where Establishments that sell only quality A/V gear are becoming scarce. There is some hope with the resurgence of Turntables and Vinyl sales skyrocketing however.

Against this backdrop, I truly fear that millions have never experienced anything approximating faithful reproduction of the Source. All I can say is for the dozens of friends and family that I have helped to put together HT's that cost approximately the same as a Bose System that not a one has gone back to Cube Speakers. 

A quality Monitor sized Speaker does not dominate a Room and with the plethora of ID Subwoofers that sound fantastic and are priced unbelievably low, putting together a quality HT that is faithful to the Source is not insurmountable. It is really that so many have never experienced accurate, full range Home Audio and Home Theater. I believe that once exposed to quality Audio, people never go back. It is just having the exposure.
Cheers,
JJ


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

Syd26147 said:


> Owners of old Beatles album from the early 60's know the severe panning that was used to prove the stereo was working, not for performance reality.


I feel compelled to make a correction. Early Beatles records were recorded on two track for production convenience and not for stereo. George Martin was always aiming for mono. When he sent copies of two track tapes to the US, he had no idea they would be released with one track in the left channel and the other in the right and have it be described as stereo.

I grew up listening to the Capital releases and still own all my original Beatles albums going back to "Meet the Beatles". While their echo drenched sound is what I'm used to, I'm glad to have remastered copies in the form they were intended to be heard. I still miss the false start of "I'm Looking Through You" on "Rubber Soul", however.


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## Syd26147 (Jul 4, 2008)

> and still own all my original Beatles albums going back to "Meet the Beatles".


 As do I. ( including a Butcher Yesterday and Today )
I appreciate the clarification.
I won't lay blame on G.M for any post production jazz up to produce the Stereo version, only that someone did it.

It is interesting how a portion of the back covers of the Capitol releases of that time tout the superiority of the new Stereo medium.
I do notice that during the period of time that stereo was being released the panning was much more severe. 
I remember a lot of console stereo came with a dramatic stereo demo album.

Syd


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## JBL Fan (May 1, 2010)

> We live in the Age of the iPod where for so many, listening to Music has become a truly solitary one. Sadly, we also live in an age where Establishments that sell only quality A/V gear are becoming scarce



Bingo Jungle Jack.

I lament the same thing - it's largely WAF driven. I can't tell you how many times I'd sell a customer a nice setup only to return the whole thing the next day - wifey said no, get little speakers. Look at what's happening to SACD - sample rate is king but nobody cares - it's convenience that matters. 128 is fine as long as it's easy to use.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

I started a thread (I don't get it) here about the whole WAF thing. It doesn't say much for a "man" when his significant other dictates his every purchase.


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

JBL Fan said:


> Look at what's happening to SACD -


I thought it would be fun to get a copy of Holst "The Planets" on SACD. I went out to Amazon to order one. The only new ones I could find were crazy expensive.

As far as stereo returns go: PW! I did get some flak when I brought some DCM Timeframes home. My wife called them "Hershey Bars" and accused me of going out with the intent of finding the ugliest speakers available. To add insult to injury, the cats were excited about the new scratching posts I'd bought them. The speakers did stay until I passed them along to my son.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

JoeESP9 said:


> I started a thread (I don't get it) here about the whole WAF thing. It doesn't say much for a "man" when his significant other dictates his every purchase.


But it also does not say much for the "man" if he is not considerate of what his wife wants as well. If you did not want that then why did you get married.


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

Wow JoeESP9, 
that's an impressive line up of gear you have.

I don't get into putting down brands myself, however I do suggest people look at various systems and decide what is best for themselves.
Working in IT I constantly get people asking what brand computer they should buy, I never recommend a specific brand, instead I find out what they expect from it and guide their decision from there. e.g. monitor and Hard Disc size etc...

On the other hand, my wife and her sister play harp, piano, violin and flute, but are quite happy listening to music and TV through a system I wouldn't use for surround speakers, go figure?


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

robbo266317 said:


> Wow JoeESP9,
> that's an impressive line up of gear you have.
> 
> I don't get into putting down brands myself, however I do suggest people look at various systems and decide what is best for themselves.
> ...


Thanks for the compliment. I've been at it since 1968. 

I'm not trying to put Bose down. There are options other than any Bose product that sound better and cost less. I do my best to make people aware of that. 

I'm a retired IT professional. I used to sit people down and ask them what they wanted to do with a computer. I'd go through all options. I eventually realized most people don't want to get that involved in deciding what to purchase. Now, I just tell them to buy a Dell. That's my choice because of the availability of drivers and their generally good support. Those that have special or specific requirements still get the old in depth questioning. I build all my own PC's usually starting with large full size towers. I still use SCSI interfaces and drives. Being able to interface up to 15 devices is necessary for me. For a laptop the only choice for me is a Thinkpad.

tonyvdb:
Although I'm currently single I have been married. I am well aware that marriage is a compromise. I'm protesting situations where the man does most if not all of the compromising. When buying speakers and other gear I took my first wife with me. I was lucky. She was interested in good sound and was used to large speakers. When we met I had a pair of Magneplanar MG-2's. Not long after we got married I traded the in on a pair of MG-3's.
She got quite upset when I bought a new motorcycle. In retrospect I think it was because she had to ride on the back. Oh well, live and learn.


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## JBL Fan (May 1, 2010)

> Although I'm currently single I have been married. I am well aware that marriage is a compromise. I'm protesting situations where the man does most if not all of the compromising.



As I've said, I've done this for a living here in the DC area. I've been in houses that look like "cribs" on MTV. I've also been in houses with lavish marble appointments and grand foyers and way down in the basement - the ol' man wants a man cave. In on every decision, the wife vetos what he wants and manages his budget. Lemme tell you, these women don't know what a dish towel looks like. There are teams of worker bees, cleaning and polishing, gardners and maids... - yet the ol man can't have a Pioneer Elite and some B&W towers - too expensive and ugly in her opinion.

First hand experience.


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## robbo266317 (Sep 22, 2008)

I totally agree the waf factor can be limiting. If I had shown pics of my sub before I made it then who knows if it would have gotten built.
However, after I made it there was no problem as I had put so much effort into it and also my ugly old TL's I already had before we got married so they came as part of the package. :innocent:


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

For an easy life most people keep in check with there wives which I don't think is right, now I changed from a full M&K front end and my partner loved them btw looks wise, then I went and changed to more polite looking speakers (my choice as music has taken over ) and she does not like them :dumbcrazy:

well I do not care as they sound amazing :T


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

I think that most woman do not find a large wooden box in the middle of their living room as acceptable. 
The small size and great marketing have made BOSE, well BOSE. :bigsmile: 

I personally value my wife's opinion very highly and as such, she is very gracious in allowing me to play with my toys. 

Matt


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

tonyvdb said:


> But it also does not say much for the "man" if he is not considerate of what his wife wants as well. If you did not want that then why did you get married.


There is also the point of this is your hobby, and if your wife married you knowing your hobby, but having no interest, then why does she get a say. There is more than enough our women dont let us have a say on, whether your man enough to admit that or not :bigsmile:


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## Guest (May 24, 2010)

When it comes to Bose, they are the only brand (that cost a lot) that doesn't advertise normal specs like ohms, sensitivity, and frequency range. Even the flag ship 901s leaves this information out. I've seen cheap HTIB systems with little detail about the product, but when you get in to higher priced equipment, its usually included.

I know a lot of consumer just want more sound then a TV can produce and the lifestyle systems fit the bill just fine for a lot of folks. I think if buyers could get a clear window as to what the unknown markup is, they might not like them so much.

When close friends and family are interested in Bose, I try and steer them away, but Bose have been and will always be successful. I wish they would use higher quality components for charging as much as they do and in general, I frown on them. They sure have marketing down really good. I wish I knew as much about marketing as Bose has forgotten.

For one person that doesn't like Bose, Bose probably has 10,000 buyers and owners who do like them. So I guess Dr. Bose was on to something with the way people hear.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

I'm not sure they are marketing gods. They simply advertise everywhere as far as I can see. Given the amount of active advertising they probably cant afford to use better quality components, and I personally have no problem with a company using cheap components if the end results is right, I mean, just look at M&K subwoofers, the MX series and the 5100 use $80 dollar paper drivers that sound awesome.

I dont bash Bose, and if your not into critical listening I think they actually sound pretty decent. I think of them as an ambient sound system, and IMO, they do that pretty well. They are also simple systems, and for technophobic types, they offer simplicity with (apparently) decent sound and style few would call.


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## Guest (May 24, 2010)

They might not be marketing gods, but their marketing does work. I don't know how many times I've heard "Bose is the best" from random people. Its one thing to be successful, but if people think that they are actually buying the best or really high end, then thats where things get sour for me. Are they buying something that they are happy with, sure. Once upon a time, I thought they were really good too, but that was back when I had a boom box, and then heard Bose, so they were better then what I had. If you listen to their commercials, to me it sounds like the script passed through the legal department. The Bose 3.2.1 system IS better then TV speakers alone. I'm sure that statement is factual in every way possible, but they compare themselves to TV speakers, not other systems.

The good side is, they can sell gobs of systems to lots of people and they can have some sort of surround sound system compared to just TV speakers and most personal reviews are good so the owners like what they bought and that really is the most important part. The downside is, I think some buyers think they just bought the best and if marketing relays that, then they are a dishonest company in my book. Sure, everyone sugar coats a product to sell and advertising talks up all products, but I don't know anyone who buys a Ford, LG, insert brand or product, and them thinking that they really just bought super high end.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Generic said:


> They might not be marketing gods, but their marketing does work. I don't know how many times I've heard "Bose is the best" from random people. Its one thing to be successful, but if people think that they are actually buying the best or really high end, then thats where things get sour for me. Are they buying something that they are happy with, sure. Once upon a time, I thought they were really good too, but that was back when I had a boom box, and then heard Bose, so they were better then what I had. If you listen to their commercials, to me it sounds like the script passed through the legal department. The Bose 3.2.1 system IS better then TV speakers alone. I'm sure that statement is factual in every way possible, but they compare themselves to TV speakers, not other systems.
> 
> The good side is, they can sell gobs of systems to lots of people and they can have some sort of surround sound system compared to just TV speakers and most personal reviews are good so the owners like what they bought and that really is the most important part. The downside is, I think some buyers think they just bought the best and if marketing relays that, then they are a dishonest company in my book. Sure, everyone sugar coats a product to sell and advertising talks up all products, but I don't know anyone who buys a Ford, LG, insert brand or product, and them thinking that they really just bought super high end.


Hello,
That really has been my main point and issue is that millions believe Bose to be World Class. It is not about snobbery, rather Consumers being convinced that spending thousands on Bose means you have something special. And I do believe so much of this is Marketing.

If it makes People happy, I guess it is ok. It is just realizing the Acoustimass System literally has a giant hole in its Frequency Response, it is hard to advocate the purchase of that System.
Cheers,
JJ


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## ironglen (Mar 4, 2009)

:dumbcrazy: I just LOVE when I talk about sound systems(mine) and someone asks if I use Bose speakers! addle:

I like to reply when they make a statement regarding the superiority of Bose speakers by asking them when the last time they've been in a concert hall, stadium, or better yet, a local movie theater and witnessed the use of...you guessed it, Bose speakers :unbelievable: Then ask them *why when it comes to professional sound installations Bose is nowhere to be found* onder: :rofl:


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

When I say I dont believe Bose to be marketing gods, and people obviously see that it does work, my real point is that I think any company could do the Bose thing if they invested as heavily in their products advertising. The problem would then be, we would either get an inferior product for the money, or pricing would soar.

I think Bose have their place, and probably sound great considering the components used, but as ever I think it simply comes to price, or more accurately, worth. Worth is totally dependant on the individual, and for some Bose is worth it, and for some they arent, I say take your pick and that is that :T

I'm not sure there is much more to say about this subject now?


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

Sorry Moonfly I can't agree with you. I think, as "knowledgeable" AVphiles we have a responsibility to our friends and neighbors to steer them away from overpriced under performing gear made by anyone. This is particularly important when we are asked for advice about an audio or AV system. It just happens that Bose comes up frequently because of their saturation advertising. Usually a sound comparison makes them realize how truly awful most Bose products actually sound. When they find out the "better sounding" gear I recommend costs less than the Bose product they originally asked about they eagerly buy something that sounds good. The also have a tendency to tell everyone who will listen how good their system sounds for less money than Bose.

A perfect example of this is the Bose Wave Radio. Cambridge Soundworks makes a comparable table radio CD/DVD player with HDMI connectivity for less than half the price. It also has an iPod dock. I've heard both and I think the Cambridge Soundworks unit sounds better. 

You get better sound for less money. Do the math!


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Of course we can share our knowledge, but at the end of the day, if Bose products were half the price they wouldnt get bashed at all, well a quarter price then 

If someone else believes the Bose is worth the asking price, then who am I to tell them what to think. I can offer my opinion, and show them alternatives, even demoing my kit to them, but if they are happy, then so be it. I sold my £2300 lifestyle system for £300 to a family member who cant believe I sold it. They have heard my system, but it doesnt interest them, and they have said they wouldnt even consider a straight swap. Sometimes there is no accounting for taste and on occasion we have to accept that.

If you can save someone, and get them a better product for less, then thats great, but its not always the case, and I'm sure the fact Bose continue to go from strength to strength goes some way to proving that point regardless of whether we agree or not.

P.S, You may have noticed I have experience of Bose products, and I can assure you that is no reason to consider my view a defence of them or their products, Ive actually sold those 203 speakers on now as well as it happens, which reminds me, I must update my sig..


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
It is strange how this Thread has turned into an inquiry and focal point discussion of Bose. I am certainly guilty myself for Posting my feelings about the Company. Again, if it makes People happy, I suppose whatever floats their Boat won't sink mine.

It is frustrating when you encounter folks who feel superior due to having their Products. Bang & Olefsen aficionados often have this trait as well. With both, my main issue is with price/performance. I truly do not feel the juice to be worth the squeeze. Moreover, what does it say when Moonfly only received 300 Pounds for his 2,300 Pound Acoustimass System. Though I am sure there was a steep Family discount.

It is amazing when talking about an AV Company, but discussing Bose can really be a Third Rail situation.
You have Friends and Family who have spent considerable sums of Money on something which some of us believe to not be anything remotely special. However, it really can hurt People's feelings and or cause disagreements to pontificate on how you personally feel about it. I really keep my feelings to myself unless asked my personal opinion. And even then, I really try to be diplomatic. Nobody wants to feel like they have been duped.
Cheers,
JJ


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## JBL Fan (May 1, 2010)

> Nobody wants to feel like they have been duped


Agreed and well put....

I've seen plenty of high priced audiophile-foolery and it's not just confined to one company. Some things being sold as "high end" are just expensive. I know one company that sold very "high end" CD players for 4K - they had off-the-shelf Pioneer Elite guts to them and an in-house power supply. It was a 4K CD player you could buy at $150.00 from Pioneer. 

Some speaker systems I've seen were an embarrassment - yet "high end".

Caveat Emptor


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

The important point to remember is that IME people who are given an opportunity to do a fair comparison usually go for the better sounding less expensive gear. Advertising is what Bose does best. A large part of their advertising is slightly misleading at the least. At the worst it's completely deceptive and untruthful.

For instance: The latest add I saw for one of their mediocre "HT" systems has a studio engineer talking about the importance of good sound for an HT. Everybody can agree with that. What many don't notice is the lack of any Bose gear in the studio and the conspicuous lack of the engineer using the word "Bose". They immediately switch to some unknown "Bose owner" who proceeds to talk about how good his Bose system sounds. Am I imagining things? Has anyone else noticed how deceptive and untruthful their commercials are?


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## Guest (May 26, 2010)

Moonfly said:


> Of course we can share our knowledge, but at the end of the day, if Bose products were half the price they wouldnt get bashed at all, well a quarter price then


EXACTLY!!! If Bose were a few hundred dollars, even some hard core audio guys wouldn't mind them in the office, bedroom or as a backup system. They aren't a few hundred and better speakers cost a lot less. Audio geeks know this and unless they can get them for next to nothing, they pass. Some pass regardless. I took a pair of 101s apart once and I don't want to own any. The hard plastic housing was just fine and I think molded plastics could do wonders for affordable speakers that sounded good, but I didn't like anything else I saw in the 101s. The main complaint would be a lack of a driver surrounds. It looked like it just had a flexible crimp in the paper cone, and not a glued on surround. Xmas was VERY limited.

The best thing audio guys can do is try and steer friends and family away, but as already mentioned, it can be difficult for people who already have them. Its best just to be quiet. No one wants to be told or even hinted that their system is sub par when they could have gotten a Onkyo THX in a box and a Oppo player for less and had a vastly improved system in every way. The trade off being bulky, but even Dayton Audio has similar sized speakers for a few hundred (sub included). Klipsch has smaller speakers that are way cheaper. Why would people pay 2,3,4 times as much, unless for some reason, they thought Bose was better then the rest.

I'm glad I broke free from the advertising giants before I ever spent a large sum of money on marketing and markups. If I had spent $3000+ on a Bose system, and then learned the truth, I would feel taken advantage of. 3K is not chump change. Maybe for some it is, but I could come close to building a whole theater for that (if I went used on the projector).


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

JBL Fan said:


> Agreed and well put....
> 
> I've seen plenty of high priced audiophile-foolery and it's not just confined to one company. Some things being sold as "high end" are just expensive. I know one company that sold very "high end" CD players for 4K - they had off-the-shelf Pioneer Elite guts to them and an in-house power supply. It was a 4K CD player you could buy at $150.00 from Pioneer.
> 
> ...


Hello,
Indeed. Pioneer has been the OEM for tons of High End Universal DVD Players. And moreover, there are tons of High End gear that is grossly overpriced and not well engineered.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

I dont so much have an issue with Bose's marketing or advertising as I do with marketing in general. Most companies use terms like 99% of people prefer when they only asked 300 people who have probably been asked when actually buying the product etc. This thing happens everywhere and I personally dont feel singling out Bose as the only company doing this is completely fair. I also dont have an issue with them leaving out specs and am more than happy to let my ears be the judge as they say. 

Sure I will try educate people, and I know the 'truth' about Bose, but they are what they are, and at the end of the day, what they are is a business, and a successful one. I think in a way, a Bose system is perfect for those just starting out if we ignore the price. They relatively simple, and should the new owner be a critical listener, a good device for educating about sound. Again, it really comes down to price and worth, if money was no object then they arent a bad system for certain things. I could have got double what I did for my old system had I put it on e-bay, which is still a fair loss, but I consistently find myself writing of losses for this hobby, and some Bose owners are happy with their systems, keep them, and never loose anything. Sometimes, ignorance truly is bliss 

Its best not to bash Bose, just remain objective and educate people that there are alternatives when its right to do so.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

JoeESP9 said:


> Has anyone else noticed how deceptive and untruthful their commercials are?


Technically they are neither. If you read between the lines then you could consider them so, but then thats the game really. All advertisers do this kind of thing and its not a new trick, take budget car adverts for example, claiming its the drive of you life etc. Its just one of those things we have to generally live with in the modern world.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

There are many products that those who are experienced in a field would consider to be poor in quality because they do not meet the standards that are generally accepted as indicators of basic performance. This does not mean that those products don't have a place in the market. Many, many people are and have been very happy with their bose products over many years, in spite of experiencing other products that many of us would clearly agree are better values. This happens all the time in many markets. The fact is that the AV markets are just that, where things get bought and sold. If they are successful over a long period of time, they have a niche and fufill what many people feel are their needs and desires.

I am no fan of Bose, but like many other brands that I don't particularly like, you have to recognize that there are valid reasons that they exist, whether they seem valid to us or not. I would like to see more evaluation of their products in these discussions, but it seems that so few of our users have them that it is unlikely.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Ive considered running REW on the Acoustimass system a few times, I'm sure the results would be very interesting :bigsmile:


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## Guest (May 27, 2010)

lcaillo said:


> There are many products that those who are experienced in a field would consider to be poor in quality because they do not meet the standards that are generally accepted as indicators of basic performance. This does not mean that those products don't have a place in the market. Many, many people are and have been very happy with their bose products over many years, in spite of experiencing other products that many of us would clearly agree are better values. This happens all the time in many markets. The fact is that the AV markets are just that, where things get bought and sold. If they are successful over a long period of time, they have a niche and fufill what many people feel are their needs and desires.
> 
> I am no fan of Bose, but like many other brands that I don't particularly like, you have to recognize that there are valid reasons that they exist, whether they seem valid to us or not. I would like to see more evaluation of their products in these discussions, but it seems that so few of our users have them that it is unlikely.


I agree that their are many brands and products that wouldn't be good enough for hard core audio guys, but are good enough for others and have a place in the market. Bose is different from all the other products in the micro speaker market. The price. I don't know what the markup is, but it seems to be much higher and mainly on the lifestyle systems and 3.2.1 reflecting system. Their headphones seem to be much on par with others and while they cost a little more (I would consider normal name recognition markup) for the most part, they seem to deliver a usable headphone product. I've heard them before and I didn't do any critical listening, they seem full range and pretty clear. I actually liked some of the floor standing speakers they sold awhile back and I wish they didn't shift all their marketing and products to the micro stuff. I was in the market for those floor standing speakers, but my first set of speakers ended up being Polk Audio's. Then, Bose has the 901s. I actually have one good thing to say about the 901s. I've heard them in more then one church and the reflecting does allow everyone to hear and they work for small PA when direct speakers with low off axis performance wouldn't work well. I wouldn't want them in my house, but they do seem to really work well for PA when lots of SPLs isn't needed. Overall, the 901s are still pretty pricey, but at least with those, they are the only ones like them, so one offs can cost more. If Bose didn't jump to just the micro market and they had stuck to more full range stuff and didn't push marketing so much with large markups, I think they would be better perceived, but they actually pay for infomercials. I saw one last night, or this morning when I turned on the TV. They spend a LOT of money on that. My personal opinion is, they were a better company that went rouge. At one time, they actually made a few speakers that could jam.


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## mdrake (Jan 31, 2008)

Moonfly said:


> Ive considered running REW on the Acoustimass system a few times, I'm sure the results would be very interesting :bigsmile:


Oh, please do!!!!!!!!! I would love to see that!
I am sure the results would have me :rofl:

Matt


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

You gotta be careful when talking about Bose. People get easily offended by putting them down. I find it best to ignore the topic if possible. If you friend is buying an Audio system and wants a Bose system your best bet is to try suggesting a KEF egg system. Beyond that you can do nothing. If people don't ask for my advice they won't normally get it. I'm sure all of us have ignorant investments to the people in those hobbies. This is our hobby so enjoy it for yourself and help others when you can. But let them make their own choices or you'll find them not wanting to talk to you. FWIW Bose systems sound fine for the average Joe. I used to think they were great systems only 2 years ago. So take it easy guys. 

And yes their headphones are overpriced and overrated IMO. A little research there will save you a bundle too.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
As I stated in an earlier Post, discussion of Bose can honestly be a Third Rail. It is amazing that there is an A/V Company out there that can generate such a strong dichotomy, but it really can be that way.
Cheers,
JJ


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

Measure them and let the facts speak for themselves.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

lcaillo said:


> Measure them and let the facts speak for themselves.


http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html#number


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
That link is one I am always wary of posting. It honestly encapsulates what many hard core A/V people believe to be true about Bose. My biggest issue with Bose is the pricing. Followed closely by the Commercials showing a Rack of Components being bettered by a tiny Radio or Cube Speakers thanks to their sonic alchemy.

All the same, I am definitely in the there is no "replacement for displacement" camp. While certainly you can try to maximize the performance of Micro Components, it is still not the same. I will say that Anthony Gallo's Company really does some impressive Engineering with their tiny Speakers.
Cheers,
JJ


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

*Frequency Response*



lsiberian said:


> http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html#number


The measured response of Bose corresponds with my experience. My biggest problem was the lack of intelligability of the voices. They were mostly male and the fundamentals of many male voices are right in the range where there's a big gap in Bose response. My host was trying to compensate for this lack of sound at the 100-300hz gap by increasing the volume. The unpleasant sound is further exacerbated by a huge hump at 5-7 khz. This led to the quick onset of listening fatigue.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

*Re: Frequency Response*

I remember my audio dealer telling me more then 15 yrs. ago to stay away from bose as they use 50 cent drivers and sell there speakers for thosands of dollers and don't sound good at all. 

This thread has been going on for so long now i just had to finnally throw that out. Story short, I've never even taken the time to audition any bose products and never will. I remember when i was young and stayed up all night watching regular TV, I new it was bed time when the Bose acoustic wave infomercial came on. (couldn't even get two minutes into that).


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

*Re: Frequency Response*



bambino said:


> I remember my audio dealer telling me more then 15 yrs. ago to stay away from bose as they use *50 cent drivers and sell there speakers for thosands of dollers* and don't sound good at all.
> 
> This thread has been going on for so long now i just had to finnally throw that out. Story short, *I've never even taken the time to audition any bose products and never will*. I remember when i was young and stayed up all night watching regular TV, I new it was bed time when the Bose acoustic wave infomercial came on. (couldn't even get two minutes into that).


2 points I feel strongly about here. One, is that you should always listen to a system your going to have a negative opinion of. I feel strongly that we should at least listen to a system if we are going to tell everyone how bad it is. This isnt directed specifically at you, but I think its a point worth noting.

Second is that cheap components can make quality products, and in deed a lot of great sounding equipment out there costs only a fraction of the asking price. I sighted before how M&K use cheap drivers in their fantastic subwoofers, and have an asking price greater than even Bose commands. A well designed product can deliver when using comparatively cheap components, so I dont think we should judge Bose on that front at all. IMO, considering the reported cheapness of the components in the Bose systems, the sound quality is pretty good, and for me the issue once again comes down to one of price, not sound quality, or as I said previously, worth, which only the individual can justify.

Just couple thoughts intended to neither bash or defend Bose.


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## JBL Fan (May 1, 2010)

I think it's the price tag that sticks in everyone's craw - I know it's something that bothers me. That and umprovable promotional-speak.

I got a 2.1 system in white for my girlfriend (cost me almost nothing -new) and after I found out she could care less about it, I gave it her father who was up for a visit. By his reaction you would have thought I gave him a gold watch, he was elated and prattled on about he'd always wanted a Bose system. His wife said they often visit the Bose store in the mall and he would ogle at the products and was dazzled by the performance.

Advertising works.


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## Guest (May 29, 2010)

*Re: Frequency Response*



Moonfly said:


> 2 points I feel strongly about here. One, is that you should always listen to a system your going to have a negative opinion of. I feel strongly that we should at least listen to a system if we are going to tell everyone how bad it is. This isnt directed specifically at you, but I think its a point worth noting.
> 
> Second is that cheap components can make quality products, and in deed a lot of great sounding equipment out there costs only a fraction of the asking price. I sighted before how M&K use cheap drivers in their fantastic subwoofers, and have an asking price greater than even Bose commands. A well designed product can deliver when using comparatively cheap components, so I dont think we should judge Bose on that front at all. IMO, considering the reported cheapness of the components in the Bose systems, the sound quality is pretty good, and for me the issue once again comes down to one of price, not sound quality, or as I said previously, worth, which only the individual can justify.
> 
> Just couple thoughts intended to neither bash or defend Bose.


At the core of it, all speakers are actually cheap. The raw materials don't cost a whole lot. Granted some more then others, but even the best of the best probably only cost a few bucks in materials. The engineering involved and brand name is really the only thing that drives up the prices. Eminence is a good example of that. I've heard more then once that they make some of the best drivers, yet the street price is pretty affordable. SB is another example of very high quality and more affordable speaker drivers. So in the end, yes, cheap drivers can make good sound because really, the raw materials aren't all that expensive in the first place. Manufacturing prices are going to very depending on if they are made in China, or the country of origin.

Bose being good is going to be subjective. The jewel cubes do seem to have low enough distortion for some of the frequency range, but how would they measure up to a TB 3" full range driver or a Fostex? I've done critical listening with the lifestyle systems and those jewel cubes don't sound half bad, but I do have a problem with the accusimass (whatever its called) box. That does sound very distorted to me. It's also easy to overload with any volume and large bass hits. The 5.5" woofers aren't really a problem, but they probably have very limited xmas. This is something that I have noticed with Bose. I've built a sub using 4 5.25" TB subs and I can shake the walls and its port tunned to 38hz. So, I can't really say anything bad about smaller drivers, but my sub can kick the accustimass'eesseess butt any day.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

*Re: Frequency Response*



Moonfly said:


> 2 points I feel strongly about here. One, is that you should always listen to a system your going to have a negative opinion of. I feel strongly that we should at least listen to a system if we are going to tell everyone how bad it is. This isnt directed specifically at you, but I think its a point worth noting.
> 
> Second is that cheap components can make quality products, and in deed a lot of great sounding equipment out there costs only a fraction of the asking price. I sighted before how M&K use cheap drivers in their fantastic subwoofers, and have an asking price greater than even Bose commands. A well designed product can deliver when using comparatively cheap components, so I dont think we should judge Bose on that front at all. IMO, considering the reported cheapness of the components in the Bose systems, the sound quality is pretty good, and for me the issue once again comes down to one of price, not sound quality, or as I said previously, worth, which only the individual can justify.
> 
> Just couple thoughts intended to neither bash or defend Bose.


I understand what you are saying moonfly. but i was just stating what an audio dealer told me years ago and it has just stuck with me. I don't care for brand bashing myself even if that is how my post came across. It's also true that many companies use cheap drivers as they do cost pennys on the doller for some of them to produce. It's like i read somewhere that it's easier to build a good sounding set of speakers with quality drivers then it is with cheap ones but any speaker system can be made to sound good with the right crossover.

I think most of my feelings are more like the chevy vs. ford thing or jon deere vs. international. It's almost always got to do with how and what you were brought up believing. :T:sn:


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## Mike Cason (Mar 17, 2007)

Remember the 19 cent McDonald's burgers when they came out? They took the world by surprise and made their millions by using this method of mass sales. 

Bose isn't the only vendor out there doing the same thing. I used to have a pair of Bose 201s on my 30' sailboat in the salon and they were outstanding, but pricey. As the retail market grew and the cheap speaker mfgs started selling low budget speakers, Bose was on the front line with thier small HT surround plastic WAF friendly models and eventually got their pricing up. 

Polk audio used to have some fine real wood loudspeakers and followed suit along with Klipsch. Hugh? You own a Kilpsch speaker?.....Wow....

They only used to be known for their position in the high end loudspeaker market and only the upper middle class could afford them and/or have the room for a pair of them. I'm ashamed to see what they have on the shelves at Best Buy for sale with their name on them now. That name is what is helping with the sales.

That's why I DIY! I've just finished my long term build (many years) and can listen at 100 dB for hours and yearn for more. I can exceed that SPL but that's not wise. I do it on occasion like a kid at a carnival!

As an electrical contractor, I've been asked about HT systems when I pre-wire for HT and if they mention Bose, I let it rest. I know it is usually the wife behind the choice and husband becomes as docile as a tranquilized alligator. As posted earlier, don't bash them unless asked about a good system and then you have an opportunity to educate them.


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## polarbare (Feb 12, 2010)

The thought of Bose makes me ill. I try to educate my friends about what is available for the same price, and doesn't give up much in the floorspace department. Even one of my friends who is die hard anti-big speaker had to admit that she could see herself going with full range towers once she listened to my system. Then she asked what it cost...  Of course I told her that you don't have to spend that much to get good sound, but you do have to make some compromises with regards to acceptable form factor to even have a chance of getting good sound.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I think what allot of people forget is that the high cost of Bose does not mean quality. You are truly paying for the marketing and only Marketing.


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

Seeing that this thread came back to life, I'll share a situation directly related to it. 

Several of us, including my friend whose system prompted the OP, were out to dinner a few nights ago. Another member of the group turned to me and said: "My 20 year old compact system is on its last legs and I'm thinking of upgrading. What do you think of Bose?" Ouch. I didn't want to lie, yet I didn't want do disparage Bose in front of my Bose owning friend.

I asked some general questions (budget, use, size, etc.). The group sensed I was stalling and called the question. I finally answered: "For any Bose product, I think you can find an alternative that sounds better and is less expensive." 

I think my non Bose owning friend is looking for another small compact system, he doesn't want to spend more than $300. The Bose Wave came to mind as the kind of solution suited for him since he's really only looking for a system for background music. I've done some research and I believe I'll recommend a Polk system.

I try to keep things in perspective. When the group pressed me about not making a recommendation, I told them I'm unfamiliar with products at his price point, that my subwoofer costs close to three times what my friend expects to pay for everything.


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## Mike Cason (Mar 17, 2007)

Some people buy Lexus because of the luxury and ride. Some buy a Honda and love the gas mileage and ride. This holds true in audio concercing people's tastes. They will all vary and that is human nature. If we all agreed on the same car, we might be driving the same kind.

Bose has done a lot towards their marketing and it does please so many folks. I have a close friend who shelled out a couple of grand for a system and his wife loves it! That is the important thing. He pulled me outside before showing me what he bought because he knows what good audio really is; but the wife is happy. 

I personally built a massive home theater/living room setup because I want front row "at the concert listening" and can and do listen to my system at 100 dB on music concerts without fatigue for hours on end and it is like the entire band is in my living room. I don't miss a note! Not too many wifes (or apartment/condos) would allow such a system in their "botique" living room with the flowers, Home and Garden magazine, and so on.

I personally don't like the Bose and when asked for advice, I don't recommend them. As an electrical contractor I install some HT wiring so I'm asked these questions. Bose is getting a nice payback for their excellent marketing techniques. The buck stops there when referring to Bose as a quality audio system. True audiophiles know the difference.

Just my opinion.


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## Spuddy (Jan 2, 2010)

When I think of people I know getting Bose equipment, I get the same feeling I get when watching a bad stand-up comedian.. It's almost like a feeling of pain, where you just want to change the subject or train of thought because there's nothing positive to say, and you already feel bad for the poor guy so you can't say anything to make the situation more negative. Seriously, how do you say "you just wasted $1,000+, here's why", then show a system they _could_ have gone with when it's already too late to do a return and they can't afford to just dump the Bose and make a more informed decision?

I guess I'm not mad at Bose for doing what they do because they are trying to make money (I fully support Capitalism and the free market), rather it's because their marketing half-truths put me in an impossible situation whenever a friend goes that route, and it's a very frustrating, often awkward conversation when they excitedly show me the new system

I remember a couple of years ago when my friend sold me some Direct Reflector 301s, and I bought them for $50 because he needed the money and I figured they can't be _that_ bad for the amount they costed new, despite hearing bad things from a couple of random people. I unplugged my $80 Altec-Lansing 2.1 computer speakers and hooked up the $300+ Boses, and first wondered what was wrong with my computer's equalizer.. "I guess expensive speakers need different settings than cheapos," I said to myself. After 10 minutes of trying to make them not suck, I gave up, plugged the better sounding "cheapos", and sold the 301s on eBay for twice the price I paid new for the Altec Lansing kit. It was an eye-opening experience to say the least :rolleyesno: 


I'll never say this to someone who owns a Bose system because I don't want to spoil anyone's audio experiences, but Bose *sucks*. I'm unspeakably proud of my mom for going to Best Buy to get a Bose system, listening to the various setups, then leaving with some Klipsch bookshelves instead, despite fully intending to leave with little black cubes at first. Ears don't let wallets buy Bose!


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

We went to dinner at our friends the other night. After dinner our host streamed "Wild China" from Netflix. I was impressed by the series and the quality of the streamed image, but that's another matter.

When we got home, I mentioned the Bose sound system. My wife is not known to have Golden Ears or care much for subtleties in sound reproduction. I asked her if she could hear much difference between our setup and the Bose. I got an indignant "For goodness sake, I'm not deaf!" She went on to describe the sound as "painful" and summed up with "I guess we're just snobs."


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## chkngreez (May 11, 2010)

DougMac said:


> Seeing that this thread came back to life, I'll share a situation directly related to it.
> 
> Several of us, including my friend whose system prompted the OP, were out to dinner a few nights ago. Another member of the group turned to me and said: "My 20 year old compact system is on its last legs and I'm thinking of upgrading. What do you think of Bose?" Ouch. I didn't want to lie, yet I didn't want do disparage Bose in front of my Bose owning friend.
> 
> ...


Wow! $300? I didn't know Bose made anything that cheap.:rofl: In all seriousness, one of Onkyo's lower end htibs could probably be had @ around that price and be a really nice upgrade to anything Bose has to offer. IMO.


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## Spuddy (Jan 2, 2010)

chkngreez said:


> Wow! $300? I didn't know Bose made anything that cheap.:rofl: In all seriousness, one of Onkyo's lower end htibs could probably be had @ around that price and be a really nice upgrade to anything Bose has to offer. IMO.


I'm a strong believer in that anyone looking for good sound that's willing to do some research and questioning but can't spend much money should go down the "used" road. People with quality speakers tend take care of them, and generally enjoy audio enough that they could very well A) be willing to educate someone on what they're selling, and B) maybe even be into good sound enough that they would take a price cut to spread the love. I can imagine that a large amount of people on this forum, if upgrading, would happily take a price cut on their old speakers to get an honest hifi start-up some of that sound which brought them joy for however long they used them. For this reason, I say look on eBay and Craiglist, local friends, maybe some yardsales, etc., and see what intro-hifi gear is potentially for sale before finding something new.

Just to put this in perspective, I got my RF-3 towers for rear surround (which made a huge difference!) used & in flawless condition for $300 together, as opposed to something like $400-$500 for each one new, from someone who honestly enjoyed good sound and wanted to see me reach my own audio goals despite not even knowing me more than what was said over a few phone calls. I passed on the deal to my mom, who I gave 3 of my old Synergy speakers to upgrade her musical capabilities, and now everyone is happy and full of the warm fuzzies  

I know i went a bit off-topic here (ADD is a powerful thing!) but I wanted to get that out there since I missed DougMac's post from a week ago. For $300 new I could barely get cheapo Klipsch bookshelves, but used I was able to get some quality intro References to compliment the theater much more than I would have imagined possible at the price. And if it was Bose I was spending the $300 on... :doh:


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## djxs.ee (Feb 10, 2009)

(sorry if this is a repost, I didn't read all the way through this thread)

Should, then, other speaker companies get more involved with the general consumer like BOSE has done? I always, alllllwaysss see the same speakers at various electronic stores, and I feel like the cheaper and better speakers are only for "the people who know." Also (this might be a prejudice but i see it a lot) why do BOSE owners deny any other speaker to be of any good? Is there some magical sound wave that BOSE produces to mind control their customers? They wont even try comparing my system with theirs... and when they do come over it seems like they will ignore the sound because my setup doesn't wear the "BOSE" badge

in the great words of will ferrell...it's mind bottling :huh:


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## Bradek (Jul 26, 2010)

Okay so hi everyone first post from a newby.
this topic interested me as i will soon be in the market for new speakers etc for a dedicated h/t room. after reading through most posts disparaging of Bose and comments how people could have bought better for less i gotta say how? by that i mean how does someone tell the difference between bose and klipsch and kef or whatever. 
Should i be taking some equipment to a demo along with a selection of my favorite tunes and even if i do this would it still be a fair comparison as each audition would be affected by the show room conditions. I don't think i am going to have an opportunity to bring home 5 sets of speakers to trial at home while i make up my mind.
I guess what I'm saying is what are the tricks and tips the experts use to determine the quality of sound? my ears may be good or bad i have no idea and to be honest when i have heard Bose in showrooms i thought they sounded pretty good, but then i also think my 12 yr old tall Jamo's sound good and i suspect they are probably fairly average based on the price i paid. genuinely appreciate any tips here.
Thanks
p.s anyone have experience with the Anthony Gallo ball speakers? huge WAF here which will be important but suspect they might fall short in the earth moving stomach rumbling kinda sound i like to hear when watching movies. room will be approx 5m wide by 7m long so speakers might also struggle to fill the room.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

The "trick" is lots of listening. Also, if you can look at the response of various speakers you can begin to associate trends in what you are hearing and like with the objective aspects of the products. It is hard to be precise, because of room and location effects, but you can start to get an idea. Bose serves a good purpose here because they have such anomolous response in some cases. For instance, if you look at the response curves for their product, listen to them, then compare that to a product with a more nominal response, you can learn a lot.

At the very least, get some of your favorite CDs or other sources and take them around and listen to lots of speakers. When you listen, after getting an impression of a speaker, get the salesman to move it around or at least turn them to different angles so you can get an idea of how placement and orientaion affect the sound. 

You can read the opinions of others, but your need to reference your own experience to put those comments in a context that is meaningful, so again, the trick is to do as much listening as possible.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Agreed with what lcaillo has said above, Have a look here for some more info one your questions if you have not already done so.


Bradek said:


> p.s anyone have experience with the Anthony Gallo ball speakers? huge WAF here which will be important but suspect they might fall short in the earth moving stomach rumbling kinda sound i like to hear when watching movies. room will be approx 5m wide by 7m long so speakers might also struggle to fill the room.


As the link that I pointed you to above says small speakers generally means small sound. You can not expect a small speaker to move lots of air and air movement is required in order to reproduce the lower frequencies. If the driver is not larger than 5.5" (135mm) then dont expect a full frequency range response. Speakers should have a frequency range of at least 80 to 20,000Hz


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

I'm sure of one thing, is that the Bose won't do much bone rattleing to ya. :sn:


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

lcaillo said:


> Bose serves a good purpose here because they have such anomolous response in some cases. For instance, if you look at the response curves for their product, listen to them, then compare that to a product with a more nominal response, you can learn a lot.


One of the big clues is that Bose refuses to release the response curves of their speakers. From their standpoint, that's not a problem since their target market is not interested in the technical specs and their purchase of Bose products would not be driven by them. That's not a put down, just a statement of facts.

Others have measured Bose speakers using standard industry techniques and the results were frankly horrible.

Anyway Bradek, you're right, it's very difficult to sort out and test drive speakers. Show room conditions usually are not a good environment to test speakers. I do know of one dealer who built an audition room, it's the size of an average living room and furnished like one, down to window treatments. It's the best audition space I've ever seen (and heard).

When I began my search for my home theater speakers, I did just what you did. I went to various forums on the web and got a feel for what was available. I had originally thought of buying speakers sold in retail audio shops (not big box), but while I was researching the brand that interested me, I found references to a number of internet direct speaker companies. The more I read the better they sounded, especially from a budget standpoint.

I narrowed my list based on consistently good reviews of a few manufacturers. I also went to their web sites and read their specifications, including response curves, especially on axis and off axis response comparisons. If you're not familiar with response curves and specs, there's a ton of data available and in no time you'll know what to look for.

My review reading skills kept getting sharper to the point that I could read between the lines of an otherwise positive review. I eliminated one company because their speakers were consistently described as "bright".

I finally narrowed down to two choices. I stumbled across a good deal on a pair of used models of one brand that I was considering to use as my back surrounds. I bought them, thinking that the same audio philosophy would run through the family. I was very impressed with them and from that, decided to order the rest of the system from the same manufacturer, knowing that they had a generous return policy. My theory proved to be true. As impressed as I was by the back surround speakers, the L/C/R and side surrounds I chose were even more impressive. No return was needed.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

As a bit of a visual representation of what Bose delivers you for the rather large asking price, I thought a quick comparison that is easy for anyone to understand might be useful. Below are two images, the one attached at the bottom is the rear of the top of the line £3.5k+ Bose systems head unit, and it shows the connectivity that is typically available from a Bose product. The other image is the rear of the £250 ish introduction model of a typical dedicated AVR from one of the usual suspects in this field, which will give a system that easily matches the Bose in terms of sound quality, for under 1k. I think it shows very well the difference in what is on offer between Bose and the the rest of the field, as Bose put the same amount of effort into every aspect of the product, compared to the competition. The connection types of interest for comparison are only the RCA/phono connectors, HDMI's, Coaxial Digital connectors and optical connections.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Amazing what you don't get for the money:scratch:.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Just left the Bose website and i must say nothing there even appetizes me. There technology sounds really good but the price of the stuff is what hurts.:nono:

They even have suspension systems for cars, WOW!


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

For the usual Joe Blogs who has no real experience in Home Cinema and is also concerned about the WAF there will always be a market for products like Bose so I don't see there pricing ever coming down or marketing changing which is what wins there sales, it is just that the people in the know like us can educate people into choosing a system that will surpass any Bose one and leave plenty of change for media or something for the wife :bigsmile:


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

They market so well i was allmost drawn in by it:rofl:, as they speak of all ther tecnology and hoopla.


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

I have to admit though that I did have a set of AM5's MK1 or 2 about 15 or so years ago :whistling:


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## Spuddy (Jan 2, 2010)

bambino said:


> They market so well i was allmost drawn in by it:rofl:, as they speak of all ther tecnology and hoopla.


Haha don't stare directly at it for too long or the ads will get you too!


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

Whenever someone tells me they are thinking of buying a Bose product I give them a demo of my bedroom system. (No, it's not what you're thinking:rolleyesno:. Get your minds out of the gutter.:devil

Bedroom system:
Kenwood KM-106 power amp
Kenwood KC-105 pre amp
Kenwood KT-75 tuner
$80 for all three pieces

Sony DVP NS-315 CD/DVD player
$20

Advent mini's and DBX 15" passive sub
$50 for Advents $25 for DBX

That's $175 for sound that is better than any Bose system. Actually, it sounds better than a lot of systems regardless of price. All the pieces were bought from members of various forums or CL:T.

Guys, you have to head em' off at the pass. When you hear someone mentioning buying Bose or any other overpriced under performing gear, intervene. Let's face it, people mention their possible electronic purchases to you because they usually consider you the local "tech guru":nerd:. Use that presumption to steer people in the direction of better sound and video. 

We all enjoy showing off our systems:bigsmile:. Take advantage of thatonder:. Invite people over and give them a taste of the "good stuff". It has been my experience that when given an opportunity to see and hear what's possible most people choose the better and cheaper option.

Having all separates increases the overall footprint (WAF). That can be minimized with a receiver. Speakers like Advent Mini's are small enough to be unobtrusive (WAF). Of course, a sub like my DBX is relatively large. However, the Mini's alone sound better than a Bose system. Without the sub woofer this system brings smiles to females and nodding heads to the guys. Connect the sub and the responses vary from "wow" to "holy harpoon's Batman". More than once my modest bedroom system has caused people to change their minds about buying a Bose system. Use your system(s) to help educate friends and neighbors about better soundaddle:. It's the right thing to do:innocent:.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Spuddy said:


> Haha don't stare directly at it for too long or the ads will get you too!


Nope I closed the web page as i could feel the brain washing start to happen.:unbelievable:


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## recruit (May 9, 2009)

This thread has probably served its purpose so closing.


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