# turntable advice



## mmar6686 (Aug 19, 2010)

Looking at buying a turntable and accessories are needed for home use only. Not into DJing and not looking for that type of turntable. I am looking for something with quality and that is affordable, seen decks that range into the thousands of dollars and that's out of my price range. Does anyone have any advice on where to start? My husband isn't thrilled with my new desire to listen to vinyl since he converted all our music onto little MP3 players. 

Thanks for any input.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Hi mmar, welcome to HTS.

I'm not a turntable guru so cant help, but just wanted to extend a warm welcome :T I'm sure help will be along very soon.

All the best.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2010)

I was in your exact same position a few years ago. I wanted a turntable worth taking home, but my budget didn't extend into the thousands of dollars.

I ended up getting a Audio Technica ATLP120. I went by tons of reviews, and at the time, it was on major sale. I later upgraded to a Shure M97xE Phono Cartridge. Properly setup, it does sound really nice with good vinyl. One warning about this thing, the internal amp doesn't sound good, you will need an external one to get any real sound out of it. Other reviews warn of this. This is a popular DJ turntable, but don't let that scare you away. One of the reasons I chose it is because I heard how clean it could play at very loud volumes. With clean records, it doesn't really sound like the vinyl I used to listen to or though vinyl was like.

Other budget turntables that are known to be good that cost $500 and under are the Music Hall's MMF-2.2 LE and the Denon's DP-300F.

I can't really say what is the best out of all of them, but I can tell you that you don't have to spend a ton to get in to nice sounding vinyl.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

What gear will you be using with your (soon to have) TT?

I suggest staying away from any TT with a built in phono stage. 

The Music Hall MMF 2.2 is a very good entry level TT. You will need a receiver or integrated amplifier with a built in phono stage (Phono preamp). If you have a receiver or integrated amplifier already that doesn't have a built in phono stage the Audio Technica (less than $50) from www.needledoctor.com is an excellent choice. The MMF 2.2 is also available from Needle Doctor.

The phono preamp whether built in or external has nothing to do with your volume level. It amplifies and equalizes the signal from the cartridge to a line level. Line level is the level a tape deck or CD player outputs.


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Of the so-called entry level audiophile turntables of the Rega P1, Pro-Ject Debut III, Denon DP-300F, and Music Hall MMF2.2, the Music Hall is probably the best of the bunch, although any of those would be likely to satisfy the entrant into vinyl listening.

LP Gear has offerings with significant upgrades of belts, stylii, etc. for the Rega, Denon and Music Hall for no cost. Needle Doctor offers the Denon DP-300F as a combo package with the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge for $420 which is a significant upgrade from the base model.


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

I know NOTHING about TurnTables -- that's a whole level of expense that I'm trying to avoid.

That being said, on another forum I peruse, there is one guy who used to be totally CD even though the rest of his system is extremely non-digital. Anyway, he converted to Vinyl after using a moving coil cartridge instead of a moving magnet. The TT he referred people to was the Music Hall 2.2. And then spend >$250 on a moving coil cartridge.

Here is some more info he threw in..

_ One wrinkle I forgot to mention is that moving coil cartridges come in three output levels. The "low output" type puts out around .5mv. These are generally more costly, and they must be used with a step-up transformer or a preamp which has a specific setting for this type. The "medium output" type puts out around 2mv, and the "high output" type puts out the standard 5mv that moving magnet types do. These last two types do not need a step-up transformer, although the "medium output" type will require the volume knob to be advanced a bit farther to get the same volume level as with other sources.

The type I have, and the one that was used for the transfer of the vinyl tracks on the Smackdown CD is of the "high output" type.

I would avoid at all costs buying a moving magnet type. I have owned moving magnet cartridges all my life but when I switched to a moving coil recently, the difference was dramatic, with an opening up of the presentation which frankly amazed me.

In any event, either a preamp with a phono input will be required or a separate phono preamp. These are not terribly expensive. Add in a good anti-static brush, and you're off to vinyl-land.....

Many current bands are issuing their latest releases on vinyl, in addition to the regular CD. Many people have been labeling this era as the "second golden age" of vinyl.


The records I used were reissues from Classic Records, on 200 gram low noise vinyl. By all means, buy this type of pressing because it is in a totally different league than your run of the mill vinyl from years ago. Also, as I mentioned earlier, in the mastering and cutting of these master lacquers, the engineers do not apply low frequency filtering, compression or any other type of alteration beyond perhaps some touch-up EQ. In the past, LPs were very compromised because the engineers cut the masters with the lowest common denominator of equipment in mind - they wanted to be assured that the records would play on every piece of equipment out there, no matter how . In these pressings, the engineers assume that the equipment that will play it will be top notch, so no compromises are made. I am sure the original 1959 pressings would be far inferior.

Also, the stampers used to make the 200 gram "premium" LPs are only used to make perhaps 500-1000 copies, after which they are used to make the lower priced "mass produced" copies. These lower priced copies will have more ticks and pops than the premium versions, although the surface noise is still lower than LPs of yesteryear, when costs were cut at every step.

I've never noticed a noise buildup or other deterioration on my LPs, but then I have my turntable covered when playing, and keep the records clean. I brush them before play and use an anti-static gun. All my LPs which were bought in years past are far noisier than these new LPs, but they were that way from day one.

I buy all my records at AcousticSounds.com._


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

The best entry level TT in my experience is the Technics SL1200; great sounding, solid, well made and extremely reliable with decades in production. I would strongly suggest new over used unless you can find one that has not been DJ'd. I'd contact KAB and see what they recommend for a cart. For a phono stage, I'd suggest the Cambridge Audio 540 or 640 if your AVR or amplifier doesn't already have on built in.

Though this TT is now considered a 'DJ' item it was introduced well before DJing became popular and was used as a lower cost option in radio stations for disc replay over the SP10 (I own 2 of these). I have owned lots and lots of TT's over the decades (I was a very late adopter to CD) and the SL1200 would be what I'd start with again if coming back from scratch to LPs.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

Sorry, I can't agree with the choice of Technics. Having heard both the Music Hall and Technics IMO the Music hall simply sounds better.

I know there are plenty of Technics SL1200 lovers who are probably burning up their keyboards as I type this. However, most have never bothered comparing an SL1200 with a comparably priced belt drive. I did while helping a friend choose a TT. The Music Hall MMF 2.2 easily sounded better. My friend thought so also. He was impressed enough to decide to go the extra mile and get a Music Hall MMF 5.1 instead.


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

JoeESP9 said:


> I know there are plenty of Technics SL1200 lovers who are probably burning up their keyboards as I type this. However, most have never bothered comparing an SL1200 with a comparably priced belt drive.


How about much more expensive BDs? Compared side by side with a Townshend Rock and a Gyrodeck, it was far from embarrassed.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

I never said an SL1200 was substandard or a slouch. I said the MMF 2.2 sounded better. My friend thought so also.


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

Were both using the same cart?


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

The Technics had a Shure V-15IV I lent him. The Music Hall MMF 2.2 had the factory supplied one. IMO the Shure was the better cartridge. The 5.1 he ended up buying came with a Goldring GL2200. My buddy didn't like that either. He still has my V-15IV it's mounted on his MMF 5.1. 

The Shure has a Jico SAS stylus. If anything the Jico equipped Shure helped the SL1200. The MMF 2.1 simply sounded better. The MMF 5.1 with the Jico equipped Shure compares quite favorably with my VPI.

My VPI started life as a HW-19Jr. It has has been upgraded to beyond HW-19 status. Including new platter, bearing and SDS. I kept the Sorbothane pucks because to me they sound better than the spring suspension. A Rega RB-300 with Incognito wiring, VTA adjuster, Techno Weight and stub with a Sumiko Blackbird are mounted on it. 

My VPI is sitting on a TNT-Audio Sandblaster isolation platform which sits on a TNT-Audio Dual Flexy rack which is spiked to my floor.


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## Lucky7! (Jan 7, 2008)

Cheers for that. I used the same cart (Garrott P77) as I have 2 of them when comparing them at home.


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## LPS (Aug 14, 2009)

I would also look for a used (second hand) audiophile "entry level" turntable, in good condition. With a little luck, you might find something such as a Rega Planar P2 or P3, or a Systemdek IIX (fitted with a Profile tonearm). By the way, the P2 and the P3 are still in production, but even an old one, from 1985 (say) might be interesting. A 25 years old belt-driven "manual" turntable like those ($C400-600 originally), in good condition, and correctly ajusted should sound better than a SL1200... A belt-driven turntable will sound better that a direct drive turntable of similar price...about 95% of the time!


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

For some reason SL1200 owners are a very vocal group. They defend and support the SL1200 as the best thing since "sliced bread". I suspect most have never heard a well set up higher end belt drive.

All other things being equal (they're not) the plastic look and construction is enough to turn me off.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

These are the entry turntables that will give you amazing performance for the money. Technics SL1200, Rega, Project, and Music Hall. Don't shy away from the SL1200. It was built as an audiophile TT and embraced by the DJ community because of its rugged DD design. Remember you can always buy used and save a bundle of $. If you are buying used, consider vintage Thorens, Garrards, Lenco, and Technics amongst others. Remember to budget for a nice cartridge too, or if used a new stylus. If buying new, the entry TT's from the manufacturers listed usually include a nice cartridge too.


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## LPS (Aug 14, 2009)

I think I should add some more precisions in this "TT" subject...It might be useful to some other HT enthusiasts...English is not my first language, but I'll try to write something useful to clarify that "complex" subject...Hope it help!

Turntables (TT) were "mainstream" until around 1988, then the CD becames more popular as the "main audio source" in a sound system (This was mostly before the HTs...and about 10 years before the DVD!). A good TT was often superior to the CD player of the time. Many people today, either never had a TT in their system (and it is confusing for them to choose a TT if they want one today...), or long ago removed the TT from their audio system. 

There is a fundamental reason why the audio quality of a belt drive (BD) TT is superior most of the time to direct drive (DD) at any given price range. To be able to recover minuscule groove information from a record, it must be isolated from the motor and the exterior vibrations. Otherwise the signal is simply lost, masked by the vibrations. In a properly designed BD TT this is done with the belt and the suspension (or the belt and motor mounting in design without suspended chassis). The tone arm and the platter are often mounted on a rigid suspended chassis and the motor is mounted on the base. In good quality BD TT, using a suspended chassis or not, the pivot becomes the main source of vibration, not the motor, not the exterior world. In a DD TT the motor is attached directly to the platter, directly under the record ( ! )

Classical TT weigted rumble or lumped wow&flutter specs are usually limited. It's not possible to choose a design over an other, based only on those specs. It's the old 'specs well - sound terrible' syndrome? Well sometimes, unfortunalety, it is... 

There is theoretical advantages to the DD system, certainly, and very good DD TT has been built...at very or extremely high prices! At medium prices, a musical TT can only be driven by a belt ! It's simple mechanical engineering. In the eighties, DD TT becames more popular than BD, mostly for marketing reasons...but today, most remaining TT still in production are BD. For the same good reasons that why almost all high quality "audiophile" TT were, and are still belt drive designs today. 

Well cared good quality DD TT and BD TT are equally reliables and long lived, but you might have to replace the belt of a BD TT once in a while... 

The Technics SJ-1200 is a good TT, but there is much better options if the audio quality is your first priority.
However, a quick start capacity, "back cueing" capacity, "rigid" suspension, etc, are required by DJs, so this is the reason why they will choose a well built DD TT such as the popular Technics, not a BD design. Sound quality becomes, by necessity then, a "second" priority. Well, sound quality is usually still considered important, sure, but once the DD design has been chosen. It's not that the SJ-1200 is "not good". It's a well built unit. It's just that other TT simply sound better in the same price range (but, also, you have to know that they exist ! )...You can of course choose a DD if "maximum" sound quality is not your only priority. 

I have had experience over the years with a Garrard, a Lenco (BD), a Technics(TT), a Systemdek(BD), and a Linn(BD)... in this order (I still own - or have access to - the 3 last ones)... The audio quality goes in the same order, and the price goes also in the same other, but the Technics and the Systemdek were in the same $ range, and the Systemdek was audibly superior to the Technics... 

I had the Lenco nearly 35 years ago. The motor was mounted on the suspended chassis instead of the base, so a part of the advantage of the system was lost. The tone arm was so-so. The Lenco was fairly good in itself, but I would probably not buy a used one today, because there is so much better options. I would probably avoid any TT from before 1980-85 anyway...

The Thorens of early eighties were better, but their tone arm were also so-so. I would pick up one in a garage sale, perhaps... The Rega P2 & P3 were probably the best economical TT of the time (and they were not using a suspended chassis !). They are still in production today. The Systemdek was very good too. 

However, I would definitively stay clear of any of those old "puck drive" Garrards of the sixties (and seventies ?), no matter the price or the condition... I'm not in the market of "historical" TT...No TT produced that long ago is "good" in actual standards.

As I would also avoid a lot of those very cheap TT, introduced recently, fitted with a small preamp, A/D converter and USB connector...no matter how small my budget is ! 

Conclusion: A new Project,Rega, etc...- or a used one - might not be for everybody (a manual "minimalist" BD design anyway)...perhaps...but if you need or want a TT, you can definitively find a good musical one at a medium price.


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## mjcmt (Aug 30, 2010)

DD verses belt drive TT sound is subjective and dependent on TT design and system components. Both have their strengths w/ proponents of both TT designs. On vintage TTs, arms can always be upgraded and is less of an issue than the rest of the TT construction.


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## WmAx (Jan 26, 2008)

To the poster the referred to the Technics being plastic; it's not. It is die-cast aluminum.

As for options, the Sl-1200MKII has far better potential than 'hi fi' entry level tables. However, key word is 'potential', and requires a high grade arm to be properly installed. The table/chassis/drive system are far more advanced than the entry level 'hi fi' tables of which I'm aware. Also, belt driven entry level tables do not have very good motor isolation. The motor is attached to the chassis with simple, relatively ineffective, rubber grommets/cushions and any motor vibration is fed back into the main chassis/bearing. The Tehcnics DD system has virtually no noise/vibration production due to the nature of the motor design/integration and the fact it is a DC motor. Most of the entry level 'hi end' units use AC motors that are inherently prone to more vibration inducement.

If you want a great(_as in, further improvements are essentially audibility irrelevant to realistic playback capability_) table to begin with, you need to save up and expect to spend around $1500-$2000, IF you pick very carefully, then you can avoid ever having to upgrade your table/arm again. But only a handful of products even at this price are of superb build/performance. One can easily spend more and get less, if they are not careful in picking out the product.

Chris


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

In the $1500 to $2000 range I would recommend a VPI Scout. My opinion is influenced by being a longtime VPI owner. Mine has performed flawlessly for 27+ years.


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## WmAx (Jan 26, 2008)

JoeESP9 said:


> In the $1500 to $2000 range I would recommend a VPI Scout. My opinion is influenced by being a longtime VPI owner. Mine has performed flawlessly for 27+ years.


I second that. It is one of the very few tables in the 1500-2000 range that have extreme high build quality and performance; normally you would pay much more for that grade of table/arm. When I finally came down to it, it was between the VPI Scout and Marantz TT-15S1. I ended up with the Marantz due to a slightly better tone arm, but they two are very close overall.

-Chris


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## I'm Surounded (Nov 18, 2010)

PRO-JECT DEBUT 3!!!

go buy one and dont look back.

comes with a built in pre amp so you wont need a phono jack on
your pre-amp/receiver. also comes with a a cartridge installed
and set up [ortofon om5]. 

the deck is set up right out of the box and is a PERFECT TT
for the beginning vinylist [or any one else looking to upgrade
from there ion, stanton, gemini, audio techica, etc....

the price is entry level but the sound and performance are
anything but!! i have more than a few few TT's, (a couple of 
them are hi end) and this TT still has a place in my system. 
no, its not going to compete with a 3,000 dollar vpi scoutmaster, 
but it doesnt have to nor do you need it to at this point. and it
does blow the doors off of many TT's that are twice the cost!!

GO READ THE REVIEWS before you buy as this TT has won many
BEST BUY awards from the noted stereofile mags and blogers.

TT's need to be set up and calibrated to sound right and it can be
a chore for the novice. most of the dirty work is set up for you
and the rest is a cinch with GREAT instructions and you will be 
spinning wax within 20 minutes or less.

this is an EXTREMELY MUSICAL TABLE and is upgradable and many
tweeks are available. i have found no need to as it is impressive right 
out of the box. sumiko did a great job matching the components for
this deck.

read the reviews and then GO GET ONE!!! ($349.00 at needle doctor)


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## jackfish (Dec 27, 2006)

Sorry, but the Pro-Ject Debut III in matte black for $369 does not have a phono preamp. The Pro-Ject Debut III USB has a MM phono stage but costs $499. The Music Hall MMF-2.2 for $449 is worth $80 more than the basic Pro-Ject Debut III in matte black and the Audio Technica AT-PEQ3 for $44 is much better than the cheap phono stage that comes with the Pro-Ject Debut III USB. So, it appears the right choice would be a Music Hall MMF-2.2 and an Audio Technica AT-PEQ3 rather than a Pro-Ject Debut III USB.


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## JoeESP9 (Jun 29, 2009)

:TI'll second that!


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## callas01 (Oct 24, 2010)

I thought I read over at vinylengine or another website that the Music Halls and Pro-jects are built in the same factory, and that the Debut III and MH 2.2 use the same plinth and tonearm, which is a Pro-ject tonearm, I believe there was some talk about the motors being the same as they both sometimes suffer from the same noise issue and they clearly have the same platter. So aside from the on/off switch being on opposite sides of the platter, and the cartridges being different, they are pretty much similar. Which after reading that, led me to buy my pro-ject cause I got a great deal on it.

So can you enlighten me as to why the MH is so much better?


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## Craig Simon (Jan 18, 2008)

Any of the tables by SOTA. Their service is top notch - Kirk and Donna are wonderful people plus they have a very liberal trade in policy. I own the SOTA Millennia.


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## GPJeff (Dec 27, 2010)

Craig Simon said:


> Any of the tables by SOTA. Their service is top notch - Kirk and Donna are wonderful people plus they have a very liberal trade in policy. I own the SOTA Millennia.


I bet they are good turntables for $9500 list. 

Back to the original post for a good affordable budget TT, I'm in the same situation. I'm looking for something not more than $600. I'm leaning towards a Pro-Ject III non usb & the Pro-ject speed box 2 or a Denon DP300F Turntable w/ Ortofon 2M Red Phono Cartridge. If I get the Pro-ject then I would probably get a $200< MC cart in the future.

Right now I have a Realistic Lab-450 (Direct Drive) from 1989 with AT92e cart, as gifts I've received Realistic Lab-56, Fisher MT-750 Linear Tracking, and Ion TT05USBXL USB turntables. 

My main purpose wanting a new turntable is to convert vinyl to digital. My collection is mainly late 80's to early 90's dance/electronic music, a few 80's punk lps, and some local cajun 50's-70's music.
Any swaying advice?

Thanks
Jeff


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

WmAx said:


> I second that. It is one of the very few tables in the 1500-2000 range that have extreme high build quality and performance; normally you would pay much more for that grade of table/arm. When I finally came down to it, it was between the VPI Scout and Marantz TT-15S1. I ended up with the Marantz due to a slightly better tone arm, but they two are very close overall.
> 
> -Chris



Chris, my friend, it so good to see you involved with the forums again, you have sorely been missed. As far as TT's my Sota Sapphire 111 purchased in 1986 with a little TLC is performing flawlessly. Thank you for the advice to keep my Jelco arm and add A Denon DL-110 cart. and Music Hall Pa1.2 preamp, it is very satisfying to my ears. Godd to hear from you.
Jeff


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

Craig Simon said:


> Any of the tables by SOTA. Their service is top notch - Kirk and Donna are wonderful people plus they have a very liberal trade in policy. I own the SOTA Millennia.


Craig, could not agree with you more, Donna has been a God send in getting my old Sota Sapphire 111 table (1986) back to oringinal operating standards, she has helped in so many regards with all aspects of my table, I order anything Sota and she sends it to me with invoice and then I pay after I receievd my order, not too many companies will do that.
Jeff


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