# Placing The Center Speaker Vertically Questions



## Ares

I have read that placing the center speaker vertically will help in it's off-axis response as well as having less interaction with the floor and the ceiling. My questions are:

1) Has anyone tried this and if so did it improve the SQ of the center?

2) Would you have to angle the tweeter so that it's at ear level?

3) Is there a big difference if the center was placed on top vs below the TV vertically?

Thanks You.

Tony


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## chas

I did this once with a center speaker I was having off-axis issues with, and it did improve the performance. It was ridiculously tall above the television, and I angled it down which made it a bit unstable. I soon replaced it with a bookshelf speaker in the same speaker family. That worked quite well.

I later switched to a brand of speakers that had a center with much better off-axis performance.


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## tonyvdb

Hi Tony, My understanding of this is the the design of the centre channel is to keep it on its side. Placing it on end will in most cases give you a poor response. Its no different than taking a "normal" bookshelf speaker and turning it in its side, it usually messes with its high frequency response.


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## chas

I think results will vary greatly depending on the design of the speaker. Some centers are engineered for horizontal use...others are just a vertical speaker with stickers and logos repositioned to look correct in a horizontal postion.
Interesting article on the subject:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/center-channel-speaker


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## Ares

chas said:


> I did this once with a center speaker I was having off-axis issues with, and it did improve the performance. It was ridiculously tall above the television, and I angled it down which made it a bit unstable. I soon replaced it with a bookshelf speaker in the same speaker family. That worked quite well.
> 
> I later switched to a brand of speakers that had a center with much better off-axis performance.


Hello chas,

Unfortunately I don't have the option of picking up a bookshelf since this is the last generation Images, I could probably find it used but that hassle in itself. If I mount the C60 above the TV I would angle it down but I would have it tethered to the wall to keep it from going any where, that's the article I was reading that had me thinking about giving it try.




tonyvdb said:


> Hi Tony, My understanding of this is the the design of the centre channel is to keep it on its side. Placing it on end will in most cases give you a poor response. Its no different than taking a "normal" bookshelf speaker and turning it in its side, it usually messes with its high frequency response.


Hello Tony,

I hear what your saying but if you look at the C60 it looks like the T55 on side in the MTM configuration, from what I understood from the article that having this configuration on a center can cause reinforcement of certain frequencies and cancellation in others. So turning it vertical could help with these issues if I understood it correctly, here's a picture of the C60.


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## tonyvdb

Ares said:


> Hello Tony,
> 
> I hear what your saying but if you look at the C60 it looks like the T55 on side in the MTM configuration, from what I understood from the article that having this configuration on a center can cause reinforcement of certain frequencies and cancellation in others. So turning it vertical could help with these issues if understood it correctly


I understand where your coming from and this gets a little past my knowledge of speaker design but Im thinking it would not matter as its still a MTM design no matter how you turn it. I think the best way to test this would be to unhook all other speakers and just try the centre channel in both positions, If you have REW and a mic try doing a frequency sweep with the mic placed off centre to one side of the room and see what it hears?


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## bambino

Your center channel being that it is symmetrical wouldn't cause any issues, in my eyes, you should do a test run. I know on alot of reviews that i have read alot of the reviewers that were doing tests on speakers that didn't have a dedicated center for that speaker they would just use a third front as the center. So it would be the same as useing 3 of the same front speakers.


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## nholmes1

When a vertical center is referenced, most of the time the discussion is about using a vertically oriented/designed speaker and not a true center as we know them today. Most "center" speakers are designed the way they are simply for aesthetics and not optimal performance, as most people don't like the look of a chimney on top of the tv.

Turning a "center channel" speaker on its side is more likely to cause problems, but as always test and see which you like better...


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## Ares

tonyvdb said:


> I understand where your coming from and this gets a little past my knowledge of speaker design but Im thinking it would not matter as its still a MTM design no matter how you turn it. I think the best way to test this would be to unhook all other speakers and just try the centre channel in both positions, If you have REW and a mic try doing a frequency sweep with the mic placed off centre to one side of the room and see what it hears?


I have the gear to run REW in which I can take a sampling of the horizontal position both on and off axis then do it vertically on and off axis and see what I what I come up with. 



nholmes1 said:


> Turning a "center channel" speaker on its side is more likely to cause problems, but as always test and see which you like better... ​




Out of curiosity and to further my knowledge here what kind of problems could arise from doing this?



​


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## nholmes1

Problem may have been the wrong wording, most "center channel" speakers these days have had the lobing designed to provide a wider dispersion pattern, turning it sideways will most likely defeat the purpose of having a dedicated speaker by not providing a wider sound stage.


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## Guest

As others have suggested, you should measure both ways. Off axis performance is going to depend on how well it was designed. Are the woofers perfectly flushed, or are they towed out just a tad? Some manufactures sell the same speakers and LRC, so the center is the same and the left and right. Unless your center was designed to work only as a center, then you shouldn't have a problem turning it on its side. The only issue with that is, you need a good bracket to angle it down. Mono price has them. If it isn't angled down, then you would have the same or worse off axis performance if it was too high and not angled down at all. Center channels are such a pain. :sad:

At any rate, your center channel shouldn't be too bad unless you are sitting pretty far off axis. Unless maybe it's a poor one. Things shouldn't get nasty unless your more then 30 degress off axis from the center.


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## Wull

I too have been considering placing my center speaker vertically, for aesthetically reasons only. I have yet to try this to hear what changes it does ring to the table.

http://www.audioholics.com/educatio...hannel-speaker/position-of-the-center-channel


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## Sir Terrence

nholmes1 said:


> Problem may have been the wrong wording, most "center channel" speakers these days have had the lobing designed to provide a wider dispersion pattern, turning it sideways will most likely defeat the purpose of having a dedicated speaker by not providing a wider sound stage.


Most horizontally placed and designed center channels have a narrow horizontal pattern, and wide vertical pattern. That is the effect of a WTW horizontally oriented. The two woofers/midranges side by side create an interference problem that cannot be fixed at lower frequencies, and only helped by rolling off one of the woofers at higher frequencies. Most are not designed to function this way, both woofers operate at all frequencies to increase power handling, and lobing and cancellation happen in the horizontal plane. There is your problem, the seats to the sides will not have the same frequency response as the center seat. Also a horizontally oriented center speaker will interact with the floor and ceiling pretty heavily, which creates a very negative reflection pattern, and possibly engaging the floor to ceiling modes more efficiently. 

Take that same WTW designed center speaker turn it vertically, and the lobing and cancellation takes place in the vertical plane, not the horizontal. This will result in wider horizontal dispersion, but much narrower vertical dispersion which means less interaction with the floor and ceiling. The lobing will happen on the vertical plane, and unless you stand up(which we don't) then it is of no penalty to the overall sound of the speaker.

The C60 is a perfect example of a horizontal center speaker that will probably perform better sitting vertically. 

Also, having all of the front speakers vertically oriented ensures there are no sonic holes in the front sound stage, and allows for a wave front to be dispersed identically from each of the three speakers. A coherent wave front from all of the speakers is what provides a huge, even height, wide, and detailed front sound field. This does not happen with a horizontally oriented center combined with a vertically oriented L/R main speakers. The dispersion patterns are too different to allow it. 

All of my hometheaters have vertically oriented center speakers. I have always said, the more we adhere to dubbing stages(in the case of movie sound tracks) and multichannel mixing studios(for music) speaker orientation, the less spatial distortions we will have from our systems.


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## nholmes1

Thank you for articulating what I was trying to get out but did not have the time to get into depth.

I fully agree with using a vertically oriented center and recommend to my customers as often as possible to do the same 3 speakers across the front channels. As is always seems to be the case some compromises must be made tho, otherwise we would never even have the horizontally aligned center speakers.


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## Kal Rubinson

nholmes1 said:


> Problem may have been the wrong wording, most "center channel" speakers these days have had the lobing designed to provide a wider dispersion pattern, turning it sideways will most likely defeat the purpose of having a dedicated speaker by not providing a wider sound stage.


I would not say "most." Some may be designed that way and, certainly, most of the 3way centers should be. Most MTMs probably are not.


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## Ares

Generic said:


> As others have suggested, you should measure both ways. Off axis performance is going to depend on how well it was designed. Are the woofers perfectly flushed, or are they towed out just a tad? Some manufactures sell the same speakers and LRC, so the center is the same and the left and right. Unless your center was designed to work only as a center, then you shouldn't have a problem turning it on its side. The only issue with that is, you need a good bracket to angle it down. Mono price has them. If it isn't angled down, then you would have the same or worse off axis performance if it was too high and not angled down at all. Center channels are such a pain. :sad:
> 
> At any rate, your center channel shouldn't be too bad unless you are sitting pretty far off axis. Unless maybe it's a poor one. Things shouldn't get nasty unless your more then 30 degress off axis from the center.


Hello Generic,

PSB made the C60 with it's woofers straight forward, if you look a the pic it looks like it does but it more of an illusion. For lack of a better word the outer rings around the woofer that mount it to the baffle are more of an oval shape and the sides are raised slightly which gives it an appearance as if there was toe-out.

I had hoped to have measurements yesterday but I couldn't seem to find my mic, the old saying is true when you need something you can never find it, the minute you don't need it that's when it will show up.:hissyfit:


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## tonyvdb

Ares said:


> the old saying is true when you need something you can never find it, the minute you don't need it that's when it will show up.:hissyfit:


Oh is that not the most frustrating thing! Since my wife passed its been like that all the time for me as she put things away and I cant find them anywhere when I need them LOL and then they turn up when Im looking for something else.:blink:


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## Ares

Hello Tony,

How have you been? Around here I can't leave something out in the open before the wife snatches it and put's somewhere. I"ll ask hey have you seen and before I get to finish the question she responses I'm not the keeper of your things even though we both know she put it way and now can't remember where.


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## Ares

Well I found my mic..........daughter was using it as a swizzle stick for her juice. :crying: So I can't provide any measurements for comparison so was doing it by ear and found that vertical sounds better than horizontal placement but in appearance horizontal looks better than vertical.


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## bambino

Now that is a toughy going for sound or going for cosmetics, if you really really like the way it sounds vertical then maybe you could learn to live with it being vertical:huh:


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## Ares

That's easy....well at least for me the wife is another story which is funny according to her this is "my room" but that doesn't stop her from trying to impose her decor style on "my room".:foottap:


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## bambino

Ha! Story of my life or should i say wife.:heehee:


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## Wull

Ares said:


> Well I found my mic..........daughter was using it as a swizzle stick for her juice. :crying: So I can't provide any measurements for comparison so was doing it by ear and found that vertical sounds better than horizontal placement but in appearance horizontal looks better than vertical.


Can you explain how you carried out this test please?


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## Ares

Sure I can but remember this is based on my ears and not on measurements since my mic meet an untimely end. I first started with music that I'm familiar with one CD I like to use quite often is Duffy Rockferry, the first round I sat in the LP (listening position) on-axis with the center horizontal now only the center channel was on, I unplugged the rest of the speakers since my goal was to evaluate the center.

I used Duffy's Syrup and Honey for the whole evaluation since it's just her and a guitar in the first minute then a violin you can't get much more basic than that, sat back and hit play her soulful voice came through clear along with the strum of the guitar not having it play in stereo kinda threw me but I remembered this is to determine the position the center will be in at the end.

Next I moved a to next position which is about 20° off-axis from the LP hit play and there she was a again singing in that soulful voice but I must admit it wasn't as clear as the LP, her voice sounded a bit muffled and the guitar wasn't as clear as before it seemed blurred. Even with these issues it's not something that most people would notice outside of this hobby. I went a step further and went 30° off-axis and it was a little bit worse than before but again outside of this hobby most people won't notice, now no one in my HT room will be seating this far off-axis I was testing to see how far I can push it before it completely fell apart I found it at 40° off-axis and this time everyone would notice IMO.

Up next the vertical position, before I started I had to make sure the center was angled down a bit so the tweeter was a ear level as much as possible, then had to re-run Audyssey for the change in the center's position just to keep things fair. Once again called upon Duffy for her soulful voice now there was a difference the stage seemed a bit wider than before and her voice seem to have a bit more soul and power it was noticeable to me it wasn't to the wife she couldn't tell this is at the LP. 

Time to move again to the next position which is 20° off-axis this time around it was much better than the first round it was like being in the LP in the first round, at least that's how I remember it of course audio memory is like all of 20 seconds. Once again moved to the outer limits which is 30° off-axis and still better than the first but now the her voice is starting to sound muffled and the guitar is a bit muddy for lack of a better term. Okay time to move to the suburbs at 40° off-axis this time it didn't fall completely apart but it was bad and at 45° off-axis the party was over.

Well this is just been my experience with the horizontal vs vertical position of the center, it would have been nice to have some measurements to go along with my listening experiment, my three year old had other plans for that at least she offered me some juice as a consolation prize. I'll tell you this she had the best looking swizzle stick out of all here buddies, maybe Behringer can add that to the list of features of the ECM8000. Hope it helps if nothing else at least you know to make sure your mic can't get into the hands of your kids.


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## Wull

Cheers Ares. I shall have a go with your method at the weekend and report back :T


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