# Testing the water; help me get a SUB!



## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

I been thinking really hard about my "next" blind purchase for a subwoofer and since I really do-not want to demo and ship back if I hate it, I am going to let you all decide for me.

I been debating which sub is "right" for me.

The 3-sub's I am thinking hard to choose from are the following:

1. HSU's VTF-2 MK 3 Subwoofer

2. eD A2 - 300 Subwoofer 

3. SvS PB10 NSD.

* I know that both the HSU's VTF-2 MK 3 Subwoofer and the eD A2 - 300 Subwoofer are 12" subs and the PB10 NSD is only a 10", but I am looking at this from price point also.

eD A2-300 = $350

HSU VTF-2 MK 3 = $499

PB10 NSD = $429

- By specs, it seems that the eD is the winner, but man it does look pretty ugly. Ok. I'll hide it in the corner.  

-No but really, which of these 3- would you go for, as for price, quality, specs and performance for the money?

Here is a setup view of my theater room. It is 8.5' ceiling and this just gives you the idea on how about I plan to setup everything.











So right now I am sinking shipping so please help me find that SUB!  

Thanks


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## mazersteven (Apr 5, 2007)

Dayton T1203 12" Titanic Mk III Subwoofer 

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-762


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## MrPorterhouse (Jul 29, 2006)

I really can't offer up much of a comparison, but I can atest to the quality and performance of the SVS. I've got the PB10-isd(older model) and it has served me extremely well in my 19x12x8 room, which is actually an open floor plan open to my entire 1st floor and to the upstairs as well. This means this sub has pulled its weight for an unbelievable amount of cubic volume and done well. The eD is a new guy and all I have to go on is what I read on internet boards, which has been positive. The same thing with Epik subs...very good internet testimonials. HSU subs have built the same solid reputation that SVS has, so you are really getting to very similar performance levels when you stay within the similar pricing.


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## mazersteven (Apr 5, 2007)

MrPorterhouse said:


> I really can't offer up much of a comparison, but I can atest to the quality and performance of the SVS. I've got the PB10-isd(older model) and it has served me extremely well in my 19x12x8 room, which is actually an open floor plan open to my entire 1st floor.


I gave a PB10-ISD to my son, and his room is larger then yours. I too will attest to it's performance. It is just amazing that this sub, at that price point, and the performance you get. :bigsmile:


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## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

Well my bonus check is in the mail. 

My decision is coming up very close.

It looks like the SvS is the winner for the 3-subs mentioned above.

So that 10" is has the much UmP? I want my friends to know when that BASS hits...... they are going to look like this :raped: .......... Will that SvS open those eyes of my guest?

Also... I been working my designs and it changed some. Which do you think is better setup (picture one or two)?


(Sub will be in either the Right rear corner or in pic two rear right) 











Or how how about this setup:


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

In setup 1, you're sitting too close to your screen. Also, you'll want your audio centered in the room, not off to the right like in 2, and don't forget room treatments.


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

I like # 1 ... :T:T:T ... but, SUB in the front right corner :bigsmile::bigsmile:


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## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

eugovector said:


> In setup 1, you're sitting too close to your screen. Also, you'll want your audio centered in the room, not off to the right like in 2, and don't forget room treatments.





salvasol said:


> I like # 1 ... :T:T:T ... but, SUB in the front right corner :bigsmile::bigsmile:


Here:











Taking both comments into thought (above) Here is what it would look like. Sub is located in the front right corner. Above will be all my components (on the wall). Now should the sub be away from the components due to vibrations / concerns?

From a 92" screen (80" view). The eye view to screen is about 9' away. I have to leave space in the rear due to the computer armoire.

Also for surrounds, I know they are not in the correct place, but I am debating also what speakers to get. I am really thinking about those VT-12 that HSU sells. I was told these would sound great in this area. If not, I can use my old stuff. Which is this:


Speakers (rear left, right)- Polk Audio R15 w/ 24" stands)

Center Channel - Onix Rocket RSC1000 MKII (which I almost sold)

So I was thinking of keep this (above) and not getting the VT-12's and just using the R15 for rear surround, center channel; well for center channel and then shop for some towers and then getting that SvS sub.

Which way you think would be better for speakers / placements.

Thanks for all of your help. This is my 2nd chance and this time I need to get it done right, but still be in a budget to where my wife will not be mad at me for spending too much (once again).


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## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

Oh............

Also keep in mind this is my back wall - behind the sofa










((Sorry for the mess. I was just vacuuming   ))


- Walls just got repainted (yesterday). You also can see my ceiling mount for my projector.


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## mazersteven (Apr 5, 2007)

Picture_Shooter said:


> Sub is located in the front right corner. Above will be all my components (on the wall). Now should the sub be away from the components due to vibrations / concerns?


You should place the sub in the "sweet spot". Walk around the room finding the location that the sub sounds best. Then place the sub in that location if you can. 

It is hard to isolate vibrations no matter where your sub is located.


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## salvasol (Oct 31, 2006)

mazersteven said:


> ...You should place the sub in the "sweet spot". Walk around the room finding the location that the sub sounds best. Then place the sub in that location if you can.
> 
> It is hard to isolate vibrations no matter where your sub is located.


I agree with this ... I suggested the corner because it will sound louder (look at this link http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/s...lines/?searchterm=subwoofer placement article) ... :reading:

After looking at your picture I noticed that you don't have a back wall ... :scratchhead: ... I think it will be a good idea to open a thread on the accoustic section :yes::yes: ... hopefully the experts can give you ideas on how to get the best accoustical treatment for your room ... most HT need some treatment to get the best sound :yes::yes::yes:


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## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

All-

1st let me just say thank you for all the kind suggestions on which sub is the right choice.

As I communicated w/ both HSU and SvS which they both (sales reps) were very professional and comment on there subs it was both great choices either way.

----- BUT -----

Talking with the wife, she just said to make sure I will to be happy, very happy, with my new sub purchase / selection. 
I feel that a SUB will be one of my most expensive investments minus the front projector and plays a very important role in HT setups. So I decided to UP my costs to a better powerful sub.

After reading and researching some more, I am willing to spend about $600.00 on a sub. Maybe it's not much, but too me it’s a lot! 

Let me tell you what I'm looking for. 

I want BASS- I’m not a bass head, but I want my HT room wooden floor on the 2nd story shake. I want it to rattle stuff on the walls. Kind of like all the vibrations I get from my old Nissan Pathfinder .

So I ran across these two companies of "The New Boys in Town" subs.

EPIK and eD.

I notice majority of subs are ported but growing up from high school and car audio I always felt that SEALED subs pounded harder (Pounded a good word?) then the ported setups I heard in vehicles. The only key thing I knew about sealed –vs- ported was you needed more powerful amp to push a sealed box sub then you would as for a ported setup. Now as for homes it seems ported is the way alot of subs are made. 

~Now Epik (sealed) makes a 15" driver  called "Valor" that I am digging, not just because it's a 15" driver, but it's sealed. Would I be happy w/ a sealed sub or would maybe a eD A3-300 (ported) be a better choice in my setup? Thanks for your input



I know by car audio that eD makes some sweet subs. I used to own two 10" (5 years ago) that I made a custom box for that eD sent to me by E-mail. Sounded great, but I just grew out of car audio. It seems that kids love breaking into cars and I just didn't want to be a target so I got out of that scene!!


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Why are you not considering SVS or HSU anymore? The SVS PB12NSD should fit the bill nicely.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

I'll throw in my pennies worth of opinion. I have owned the Velodyne HGS-15 sealed sub, which will most likely blow away the EPIK Valor. It in no way compares to just one of the SVS ported subs I have. I believe there is no doubt that ported will give you more extension and get you closer to what you are looking for than a sealed sub will. Are you going to get :raped: with a $600 sub? I suppose that will depend on what it takes to :raped: you.

To me this is really a no-brainer (no offense intended to anyone)... the SVS PB12-NSD is probably going to get you about as close to :raped: as you will get with $600.










And if you place it in the corner you will probably see 15Hz when it's all said and done. 



> Note: In-room extension, with corner placement, will typically yield 3-5Hz greater linear extension than indicated. Results will vary based on room size, seat distance from your SVS, and subwoofer location.


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## funky_waves (Jul 3, 2007)

We have a demo 38" FW12.1 on sale right now, and you can either buy your own amplifier or for $599 I will include a Reckhorn A-400


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## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

eugovector said:


> Why are you not considering SVS or HSU anymore? The SVS PB12NSD should fit the bill nicely.


Oh I am, just trying to keep the options open (still)

I was considering the PB10NSD, but saw here that the points were little low, then the PB12NSD was only 3-points higher. I think a 12" is the lowest I will consider.
Dang- I just wish I can hear them before a buy. I would not mind a demo, but shipping it pretty pricey on subs if I don't want it  
Here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9164136#post9164136


Copy / paste from AVSforum:


> Epic Valor
> 
> Listening results: The Valor is a subwoofer which will be the answer to many budget audiophile's dreams. It is an exceptional musical performer from about 18 Hz and up, with a very agile presentation of bass at all times. In our smaller basement theater, using a pretty good high end set up, it amazed listeners in its presentation of the Steely Dan 2AN disc, and also with its slam for HT. It is not an SPL monster like the Castle, but in the right room, it is magic.
> 
> Measured Results: 20 Hz... 99 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 109 dB





> SVS PB-12 Ultra
> 
> Listening results: A terrific subwoofer considering its 2002 design. It remained competitive in the $1200 - $1500 arena until 2007, when it was replaced by the PB13-Ultra. The "old" Ultra was at one time a standard bearer for performance, and remains a solid mid pack subwoofer today.
> 
> Measured results: 20 Hz ... 102 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 109 dB


It seems that the PB12 ULTRA is a mighty sub... but the $$$$$$$

------------> I don't know but by specs (of course room makes all the difference) that Valor is no push over, even compared to the PB12 Ultra. 
----> but, then again, it's for HT and not music :daydream:


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## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

funky_waves said:


> We have a demo 38" FW12.1 on sale right now, and you can either buy your own amplifier or for $599 I will include a Reckhorn A-400


I never heard of this company. Honestly, this is the 1st time I ran into your site. I like the price.

Hummm


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## funky_waves (Jul 3, 2007)

We have been around for a while doing custom work localy and about a year ago opened up into the world market, and three months ago we started advertizing on the Home Theater Shack Banners. For the regular price the 12.1 is very competative, and for the sale price should be very hard to beat.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

That's an excellent price for a sonosub with that driver... definitely worth considering.

As far as that point system... 



> SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points
> SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points


1 point would indicate these subs are practically equal. So, did SVS shoot themselves in the foot by making a sub that would perform equally to one of their current models for less than half the price? It looks like they did.


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## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> That's an excellent price for a sonosub with that driver... definitely worth considering.
> 
> As far as that point system...
> 
> ...


:huh: U got me. I didn;t even see the PB12 NSD.. I must of over-looked it:wits-end:... but yea... looks like they did. :thumbsdown: But maybe it's the cabinet on the Ultra is why it cost $700 more?:huh:


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Something just doesn't seem right... look at the differences between these subs:


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> Something just doesn't seem right... look at the differences between these subs:


You mean that there's only 1 point of difference between the two according to that chart on AVS? I get the impression that those numbers were subjective, but I could be wrong. Are these objective in some way?


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Yeah... why only 1 point difference? Supposedly the tests were done blind.



> Listening procedures:
> 
> All listening us done under blind conditions. The panel of listeners include several very experienced audiophiles, some of whom also design and build high end pro audio speakers. The subwoofers were each placed in the identical room position, and eq'ed to have a farly flat (3 dB window) response curve from 18 Hz and up, when the subwoofer was able to go that "low".
> 
> Measuring procedures: All measurements are taken at 2 meters from the front baffle of a subwoofer. In the case of a ported sub, the microphone is placed so it is 2 meters from the center of the driver(s) and port. The posted measured results are max "clean" 20 Hz output and the average from 20 to 63 Hz. If it seemed like the amp was the limiting factor in output, "AL" is added to the 20 Hz SPL.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

And this is not meant to get off topic about the testing, but rather to help Mike decide on which sub will be best for him.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Sonnie said:


> And this is not meant to get off topic about the testing, but rather to help Mike decide on which sub will be best for him.


Well 20 subs, so listener fatigue and just plain sound memory would be an issue. Think of the time it would take to EQ 20 subs. Plus, assume that some subs might perform better better in the middle of the room vs. corner, etc. I think subjectively, it would be tough to assign a score. Comparing one to another 1 or 2 maybe, but to another 19?

I don't know.


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## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

eugovector said:


> Well 20 subs, so listener fatigue and just plain sound memory would be an issue. Think of the time it would take to EQ 20 subs. Plus, assume that some subs might perform better better in the middle of the room vs. corner, etc. I think subjectively, it would be tough to assign a score. Comparing one to another 1 or 2 maybe, but to another 19?
> 
> I don't know.


That's why I love spec's! Test specs, as you mentioned above, I am not stuck on that AVS review, but it seems that the AVS'ers really respect this guy and his test results... as I can say also it's all subjective and personal opinion on brands, but these were suppose to be done w/ spl meters/freq equipment.

I mean... I don't think I can listen to 20 subs and have some pound at my ears at 109db's and then dial it down to 20hz...... my ears would be like :dizzy:!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Okay... you threw me off a little then because you were comparing points, not specs. I thought the points were considering the listening that was done, which would mean you were not relying solely on actual tested specs. 

Don't forget we have a Subwoofer Tests forum as well and those show the actual graphs from the tests... there is no ranking based on listening. Of course not all the subs you are considering have been tested by Ilkka either.


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Picture_Shooter said:


> I am not stuck on that AVS review, but it seems that the AVS'ers *really respect *this guy and his test results... as I can say also it's all subjective and personal opinion on brands, but these were suppose to be done w/ spl meters/freq equipment.


It has been awhile since I have browsed the AVS subwoofer forum. Do you mean Craigsub's (Craig Chase's) testing. If so, even on AVS, opinions are divided on the rigor of his testing. A lot of knowledgeable users have abandoned the AVS subwoofer forum and gone elsewhere because of the controversies raised. :gah:


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## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

All - 

This morning I was about 2 seconds from hitting to submit button on HSU's website to purchase the VTF2-MK3 and then I did one more soul search for a sub.

I then ran across a brand called Cadence.
I went to the website, read a person review on AVS and PM'd the guy that tested it and his final honest comments. After a small chat by a couple of PMs, I was tempted. I then called Cadence toll free. They answered all my "?'s" and was very helpful.

I settled and purchased the Cadence CSX 15. I'll let you all know what I think.

Here is the site: http://www.cadencestore.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=137&idproduct=398
Thanks


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Hmm...let us know what you think. Even better if you can do a REW graph when you get it. Those prices are pretty low. $300 for a 12" w/ 350w is around Bic H-100 territory.


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## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

eugovector said:


> Hmm...let us know what you think. Even better if you can do a REW graph when you get it. Those prices are pretty low. $300 for a 12" w/ 350w is around Bic H-100 territory.



No kidding. I got my 15" for less then $400 shipped~ :yay:

I talked to Jason @ Cadence. He told me they tested other subs in the $800 range from various places like Best Buy, Circuit City and others and they said their sub tested better all around.

A guy name RON @ AVS posted a small review on the 15"

Here is the graph:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=98585&d=1199904188


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=973971

I probably will not do a REW graph. I don't go into all that detail. I just go w/ my ears and the eartquakes for the motion


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## Picture_Shooter (Dec 23, 2007)

.... New owner for less then 24 hrs. Here is my short review:

All – 

I just received my CSX-15.
It came triple boxed and Cadence made sure that no one, not even a train running over this will do any harm.

As for the sub, I love the way it looks! QC on the fit and finish looks like A+.

Cadence also included a RCA Y-splitter for the sub and four chrome spike feet with four chrome hourglasses. 
I did install the feet even though it is on carpet.
Also included in a 220v plug adapter.

As for the sub, everything was easy to setup. 

The review that Ron Temple posted; I have to agree for the most part, this sub is by far the best less then $400.00 sub I ever owned or heard. Cadence was right, noting at the retail store for the $800.00 mark will be comparable to this.

I got to listen to all types of music including Jazz, Hip-hop, country and some War of the Worlds on DVD.
This sub is really punchy! I have a dedicated HT room upstairs, that is around 1600 cubic ft and I can purposely vibrate the floor, walls and make my glass of milk shake! My son, which was down stairs in our bedroom (on the other side of our house, came up running and said our bed was vibrating when he was watching a TV show.

My home is little over 2300 sq ft. I basically rock this whole house! My old Velodyne VRP1200 was like a fart thud compared to this monster! 

This is the best $370.00I ever spent and then it’s a sub! I bet there is no sub out there @ this price range that can touch it!

A+++++ to Cadence! 

The guys at Cadence know how to design a high quality pwr'd sub at fraction of the cost of the over priced subs that are out their that offers less.

Thank you Cadence for not stealing my wallet.


1st 2 pictures was shot w/ my camera phone:


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## mazersteven (Apr 5, 2007)

Picture_Shooter said:


> That's why I love spec's! Test specs, as you mentioned above, I am not stuck on that AVS review, but it seems that the AVS'ers really respect this guy and his test results... as I can say also it's all subjective and personal opinion on brands, but these were suppose to be done w/ spl meters/freq equipment.


Craigsub has done a wonderful job measuring, reviewing, and evaluating those subwoofers. And I respect what he has done. I consider Craigsub a friend. 

But Craigsub's point system is something that he made up for his own. He does this for fun at home. Craigsub is a great source for information, but his information is not the bible of audio. 

This Craigsub rankings chart has created more fanboys of subwoofers people have never auditioned for themselves.


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