# Which receiver?



## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

I've been into audio for 15 years now, built DIY speakers, amp, preamp, sub and crossover and have a great 2 channel system. But now I'm renovating a home theater and looking to get an AV receiver. At the same time, I have 2 friends both wanting advice on getting a receiver. I'm not new to audio, but I'm not really up with AV receivers, their features and so on. 

I like the idea of NAD for their sound quality emphasis and especially providing pre outs and amplifier inputs, but I hear they lack component video upconversion, which Denon apparently uses, which means you can switch easily from a VCR using composite video to a DVD using component. I'm looking at AU $500 - 1500 range. 

What I'm most interested in:

* sound quality - especially of the preamp section
* pre outs and ideally amplifier inputs
* ease of use for everyday operation - esp things like switching sources

It's quite likely that I'll have 2 mains and 2 surrounds with a power amp for the mains.


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2007)

You can get a Harman Kardon AVR 745 for that range, it has all the bells and whistles you are looking for, and not only upconverts to component, it upconverts incoming signals to 720p/1080i. I currently own a 635, one generation, and one model down, but am shopping for a 745 now. I looked at Onkyo, Yammie, and a few other brands, but so far it looks to me like I wil be sticking with HK.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

There are many many happy HK owners and I would recommend them highly as well. I think HK, Denon, Yamaha and Onkyo are probably the favorites/popular choices, but I'm not sure which models meet your pricing range... I'm conversion dumb... :dumbcrazy:

I currently own the 2807, but find it a little on the bright side with my Boston Acoustic speakers... could be the setup though ... I really need to look into it. I have owned the Denon 3805 and 3806 and used both as preamps with a Sunfire Cinema Grand and an Earthquake Cinenova Grande 5. Excellent results. The best pure sound I've actually heard was from a Yamaha V1700... smooth and it was quite noticeable vs the 2807 I currently own.


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

The higher end HKs are notorious for having bugs, and my 635 was no exception. I also didn't personally care for the remote or the display on the unit, but everyone has different preferences. 

Your best bet is to play around with a few different units, as each brand has their own idiosyncracies, and all the features in the world won't make up for the frustration you'll have during the years you keep that unit when that certain button is always in the wrong place, you can never tell what master volume you are at, or you have to go through an obstacle course of menus just to set your speaker levels (etc).


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## cynical2 (Jul 18, 2007)

I have a Denon 3802 in my family room and just got an Onkyo 605 for my HT. I like them both...the Denon has a confusing remote and therefore a low WAF in my case. The Harmony remote takes care of most of that issue, though. The Onkyo 605 is about as good as you can do right now as far as "bang for the buck", IMHO. One step up is the 805, which is a nice upgrade for only a couple hundred more.

I don't have any personal experience with HK, but I've listened to them at my local audio shop...to me, at similar pricepoints, they sound comparable to the Denon's and Onkyo's. Keep in mind that I'd consider myself an "educated consumer" when it comes to audio equipment, not an "audiophile".



Sonnie said:


> I'm not sure which models meet your pricing range... I'm conversion dumb... :dumbcrazy:


I like this site, Sonnie. He's looking to spend US$450-$1350.


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## conchyjoe7 (Aug 28, 2007)

I would take a VERY serious look at Marantz also...
Cheers,
Konky.


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

Thanks for the responses so far. Perhaps a better question to ask is this:

What features do you look for?
Which ones do you find handy?

I'd like to know about the ones I'm going to find out about later after buying, the ones that aren't obvious. 

HK. I've always liked the idea of them and the look, but they seem low on power for the money. Last I checked, it was quite expensive to get one with pre-outs.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

You stated you have diy speakers for your two-channel setup. In the home theater setup, what speakers are you planning to go with, what type of display will you use and what will be your source components?

You also stated that you are renovating a home theater... is this a dedicated room and what is the size, whether dedicated or not?


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

The room is a dedicated room 3.9m wide x 4.85m deep x 2.8m ceiling.
Speakers diy open baffle MTM vifa drivers with stereo subs 2 x Rythmik Audio 12" DirectServo kits sealed - no center speaker. All I plan to add speaker wise are surrounds - diy - considering either an array of monopoles (2 or 3) or a single dipole (with a monopole for midbass). 

Display will be projector with an old TV (composite video connection) to use for setting up TV programming. 

Source components Sony DVD player with component video and RCA coax audio output. VCR with composite video currently.

When I get a projector, I'll also be looking at HD TV and a PVR. For video I'm likely to just use component video.


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2007)

paulspencer said:


> Thanks for the responses so far. Perhaps a better question to ask is this:
> 
> What features do you look for?
> Which ones do you find handy?
> ...


Not really, you cannot buy them in big box stores at your price range, MSRPs are quite high and unrealistic tbh, but, power ratings are not something you can look at on paper and make an educated decision on. HK is notoriously scrupulous on there ratings. When they say 80 wpc, they mean high current, all channels driven (thats 7 btw) on all freq range. Having said that, I cannot believe I forget to mention Denon, as Sonny did, thats what I get for posting in a rush. The 745 has pre-outs (so does the 635 for that matter), it has upconvert over component (not just to component) and even if you do get a lemon (yes they occur) customer support is excellent, and they will work with you to get you satisfied for your product. BTW, I am NOT an HK rep! :hide: 

You can get one at Vanns for example (hope that doesn;t break a posting rule) for under 1k US (woohoo, can $$$ FTW!):boxer:


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

paulspencer said:


> Thanks for the responses so far. Perhaps a better question to ask is this:
> 
> What features do you look for?
> Which ones do you find handy?
> ...


Great questions! After owning HT equipment for some time now I can honestly say there are 3 things I would look for in a receiver (after good sound that is...)

1. To echo Steve, easy access to channel level adjustments - especially for the subwoofer. I find myself tweeking the sub for just about every different movie, video game, song... you name it. I'm a tweaker.

2. Video Conversion - especially if you plan to get a projector. Unless you're planning on buying an external video processor, this makes life sooo much easier. No switching inputs on receiver, then projector... teaching housemates to do the same... not to mention fewer cables to buy

3. Future Compatibility - When I bought my Denon 5700 7 years ago, I never thought I'd need the 8 channel external inputs or the 8 channel pre outs. Now here we are, 5.1 is a thing of the past, I've got DVD-A hooked up and I'm using an external amp as I got the upgrade bug. Now my receiver is a video switch and audio processor albiet a good one.

As for purchasing on power ratings..... HK's may be with all channels driven and Yamaha's one at a time for short bursts. Which is better depends on your application. Are you running 7 speakers at full volume all day and night? Probably not. While the all channels driven spec gives you a good indication of power supply and real world continuous power, real world home theater use looks nothing like this. I can think of not one movie or concert DVD that would require an amp to operate all channels at full power continuously. A more likely senario is a gunshot, or explosion or some loud transient that would require a lot of wattage from 2 or 3 channels for a short time. Would you rather have 85Watts for this or 170? Questions Questions... I think you are on the right track in looking for the right features. You'll lose yourself in specs. Go listen to each and play as much as you can. Good luck and let us know!


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## Guest (Oct 27, 2007)

The "all-channels driven" aspect doesn't work like that though, at 85 WPC "all channels driven" does not mean only 85w in stereo mode, 5.1, etc. It means 85 wpc in 7.1, 110 in 5.1, 125 in stereo etc... cheers.


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

Goon, when you say channel level adjustments, do you mean that you can quickly change them as you go without re-setting up the system from scratch? This is the kind of info I'm after, since I haven't really played with these units before. I tweak levels a lot as well, although I'm used to having to get up and adjust a volume knob. My old subs had a crossover that I built from scratch, and I did have a remote volume control that I built, but made one small mistake so it lasted a day only! Now I wish that all the money I'd spent on things like that I'd just put into a receiver - they put in so much for an amazing amount - one of the best value pieces of audio equipment you can get IMO.

What do you use your 8 ch inputs for?

As far as power goes, it's likely that I'll only need two channels to drive surround speakers. I don't plan to use a center at all - I don't need it - I've found open baffle speakers which I have create a sound stage that doesn't collapse as easily as you move to the side. Their ability to create a phantom center amazes me - and for well recorded material, they disappear. What I wonder is if this will be a problem for me. Can any receiver handle stereo fronts with no centre but with surrounds running?

Back to power, I'd rather have 120w into 2 speakers than 50w into 8 channels which I won't use. That said, I trust the SQ of brands like NAD, HK, Cambridge more than those that give inflated power ratings. 

Ideally I'd like to have some flexibility in how I use the power amps. Let's say I use an array of monopole surrounds, it would be handy to use say 4 amp channels to drive them.

I should mention this is a future purchase - right now I'm getting up to speed, so that when I buy, I know more than I do now. Hopefully near future.


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

paulspencer said:


> Goon, when you say channel level adjustments, do you mean that you can quickly change them as you go without re-setting up the system from scratch?


Ya, adjustments on the fly. I have a Denon and one nice thing is it remembers channel levels for each surround mode independently. For example, if I'm listening to music and use the 'Direct' mode it'll remember that I like the sub at -5. Where as if I'm watching a movie in THX mode, it remembers that I last had it set at -7. 



paulspencer said:


> What do you use your 8 ch inputs for?


Well, nothing yet actually but with the 7.1 outputs from HDDVD and Blue Ray I'm sure they will see use soon.



paulspencer said:


> Can any receiver handle stereo fronts with no centre but with surrounds running?


That's a feature of Dolby, so any receiver with at least Dolby Pro Logic can 'phantom' the center channel.



paulspencer said:


> Back to power, I'd rather have 120w into 2 speakers than 50w into 8 channels which I won't use. That said, I trust the SQ of brands like NAD, HK, Cambridge more than those that give inflated power ratings.


Pretty much any receiver mentioned in this thread will do that with no problem at all. Denon, Yamaha, Hk, Onkyo, NAD, Marantz, Outlaw..... 



paulspencer said:


> Ideally I'd like to have some flexibility in how I use the power amps. Let's say I use an array of monopole surrounds, it would be handy to use say 4 amp channels to drive them.


I don't know who does this anymore. Back in the day when the big debate was between dipole and monopole surrounds, Denon put a feature where you could drive two sets of surrounds off of the receiver and select one or the other or both. I'm not sure if they still do this or if anybody else does. That aside, I know there are a few seperates companies like Parasound that will allow custom amp configs.


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

Goon, thanks for the helpful response. Remembering channel levels for different modes and being able to tweak easily sounds like a feature I'd definitely want.

The issue with multiple amps for a surround array may not be a problem. I'm currently favouring just a pair of surrounds, an open baffle/monopole hybrid. 6.5" midbass monopole running up to the point where dipole rolloff occurs ~250 Hz then an identical 6.5" on an open baffle aiming the null towards the listening position, also with a dome tweeter matching the mains. 

I tried an experiment last night, placing my mains in a position to mimic surround placement - up against the side wall. I then used Behringer Ultracurve to eq it flat in a position between them. I noticed they rolled off fairly steeply above 10k, which is also where B&W surrounds roll off when in dipole mode. What I found was that they sound more natural with the roll off, than with 15 db of eq to get them near flat to 20k.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

Denon's new line up is pretty nice. The 3808 is probably a little out of your price range but the 2808 is within your budget.

Onkyo has some pretty impressive models too. The 805 is THX Ultra2 certified. It's the only receiver with THX Ultra2 for under $900(US) that I know of.

One thing you will definitely want in a receiver is HDMI upcoversion. That way you can plug everything into your receiver and have one HDMI cable out to your TV and/or projector. HDMI 1.3 is a plus and will future proof your system a bit. If you're buying new I would definitely get something that has HDMI 1.3. For now you are using component connections but HDMI is needed for 1080p signals, and players will not upsample over component.

Upsampling is nice too as it will make your Standard Def stuff look a a lot better if on a HD display. If the receiver has it then you don't need to get an upsampling DVD player. SD on satellite will look much better too run through the upsampler.


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2007)

MatrixDweller said:


> Upsampling is nice too as it will make your Standard Def stuff look a a lot better if on a HD display. If the receiver has it then you don't need to get an upsampling DVD player. SD on satellite will look much better too run through the upsampler.


I totally agree, now I cannot say that an upscaled DVD can look as good as media _recorded_ on 1080p, but looking at upscaled DVDs played on a bluray and on any ol upscaling player, you will be hard pressed to tell the difference. 

Having said that, most players actually will upscale over component if you can find the right hack! :nerd:


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

paulspencer,

Do realize that by not using a center channel for 5.1 or 7.1 DD, you are automatically initializing dynamic range compression. It is not something you can control, it is automatic and undefeatable - it's within the DD spec. Myself and others have measured a loss of dynamic range in certain movies ranging anywhere from 3db to 12db, and it is especially noticable in clarity on the top end and LFE bass impact. DTS is not subject to this "feature", but it is mandatory for DD. It is initiated whenever you do not have all five main speakers connected and on in the processor.

So even if you feel your mains are capable enough and image well enough, I'd suggest you reconsider not using a center. Your overall experience will suffer because of it - the audio sounds watered down with dynamic range compression.


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## SierraMikeBravo (Jul 1, 2007)

I'm a Denon fan boy myself. However, it's worth it to go with the 3808ci over the 2808. Here's why. The 3808ci is the least expensive receiver in Denon's line up that is capable of allowing Audyssey Pro to be installed by an Audyssey Pro installer. This is a HUGE aspect in this receiver's favor in my opinion. I really like Audyssey (like you can't tell), it worked wonders for my room. Stand alone, the Audyssey Pro system is $2500. To be fair, Onkyo and NAD also have this feature in some of of their products. IMHO, I would take Denon any day of the week and twice on Sunday when choosing between any of the mainstream receivers. Sound and build quality are excellent, and the the latest receivers are feature plentiful with video upscaling (some models), switching, HDMI 1.3a, and the latest surround decoding formats. Yes, you pay a little more, but I feel it's worth it.


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

SteveCallas said:


> Do realize that by not using a center channel for 5.1 or 7.1 DD, you are automatically initializing dynamic range compression.


That's interesting Steve, never heard of that one before. Do you have anymore info on it?


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

Yes, see here.


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## angelod307 (Oct 18, 2007)

Hello, Boy There's Lots Of Good Info In The Prior Posts. The Pioneer Vsx-1014tx,1015tx,and 1016tx(i Think The Later Models Are Correct) Are One Of The Best Bangs I've Seen For The Buck. The 1014 For Component Video, The 1015 For Hdmi (i Think) And The 1016 For Hdmi For Sure. The Rca Pre-outs On All Channels As Well As Built In Amps For All.(personaly I Use Carver Amps On All The Pre Outs With No Reciever Power Used) And Must Say I Very Pleased. The Single Best Feature May Be The Auto Mcacc Technoligy That Eq's And Level Sets. Simple With Awsome Results For Only $250.00 From Best Buy On The Close Out. There Are Many Good Products Out There And This Is One That Should Be Considered. Lots Of Technology Without The Big Price Tag. Consider This, What These Models Offer Today Cost 5 To 10 Times As Much Just A Few Years Back. These Are The Deals Before You Plunge Into Elite Stuff That Costs Much More Yet You Will Be Pressed To Hear Alot Of Difference With Moderate Equipment Of SAME Price. Happy Hunting!!!


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

Gentlemen, lots of great info in here - thanks I very much appreciate it, I'm glad I had this discussion before buying. When I get the chance I'd like to respond to some specific points, but here's my short response ...

Steve, 
I wasn't aware of the compression issue, and it has me thinking. My reasons for no centre are two:

1. My mains are open baffle with a very large sweet spot and a center is not required to prevent the sound stage collapsing. 
2. I don't have the space for an open baffle center - that space is occupied by a TV on top of an audio rack - space is already limited.

However, you do make a good point, and I'm reconsidering my options:

1. conventional center with shielded drivers - monopole
2. open baffle center with rack located elsewhere

The idea of a compromised center bothers me a great deal. I tend to think it's better to either do it right or not at all. 

What I like about open baffle subjectively is the absence of box coloration, large sound stage and sweet spot. Objectively, I like the idea of the power response. As I move around the room, the sound changes character much less than monopoles. They disappear much more. I can say this as I've had the same speakers in transmission line and eq'd flat to isolate the differences. 

Is it likely that I could get away with a monopole center? I wonder if the sound stage issues would be less, although I can't avoid the coloration. 

If I made a center open baffle, I could make a 2.5 way with TM and two woofers on each side ...

Here a rendering of the room:










Screen will be over the window, you can see the 51cm TV over the rack. One option I see looking at the image is to put two small centers - either side of the TV. Or I might need to get rid of the TV (it's just handy to have a display for programming VCR - yes I still use one of those!)

The room is 4.9m deep x 3.9 wide (wall with window) and 2.85m high.
~15 x 12 x 8.5 ft

External walls (window) and wall on right have double layer plasterboard and acoustic batts. Lights are actually trapeze downlights, which will float below the black ceiling, and they don't require acoustic leaks as downlights do. There is a lot more that I could have done, but this is a budget HT, one day I'll build a large dedicated room with a sub bass horn and big line array open baffles, but this is probably 10 years away ... Door is to the left and surrounds probably on side walls - above door on the left and same level on the right wall - open baffle probably with the baffle perp to the wall.

I looked at Steve's blind test of receivers, and it confirmed my suspicions that even an entry level receiver is adequate as a preamp and processor. This frees me up to buy more on the basis of features. I'd like to look further into Pioneer, Denon, Onkyo, Marantz and HK. 

Once again, thanks to everyone who has posted help and suggestions. I'll be back here soon.


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## Guest (Oct 31, 2007)

I had a similar issue with the center channel myself space-wise, have you considered mounting the center-channel on top of the tv?

Edit note: I may have confused a window in your rendering for a TV... is the TV on top of the fireplace or between your mains?

If all you want is a "pre amp" why not go separates all the way now? There has to be something out there for 1500$... having said that, if you plan on getting an amp in the near to mid future, I would go with a processor that has HD audio (DD/DTS) as well, whether or not you can find that in a "low end" model or not is something I don't know one way or the other...


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

I would experiment with a cheap, small, closed box bookshelf speaker as a center to see if it ruins the open baffle presentation coming from your mains. If it doesn't, you could build a third tower using the same drivers that are in your mains, only closed off, and put the tv on a stand that is the height of the speaker. 

If it does ruin the open baffle presentation.....well, I haven't thought of a good solution for that yet :whistling: 

As for a preamp vs receiver, I think you are always better off with a receiver, as you can use it to power four surrounds and the center and then get a good amp for your mains. Receiver amp sections from brands like Yamaha, HK, and a few others are actually quite good. Check www.hometheatermag.com for some real measurements.


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

Praetorian, 

The window will have a blind/screen for the projector. The TV sits on top of the audio rack - see the black blob in between the speakers under the window. 

Putting a center on top of the TV will obstruct the bottom of the screen, unless the rack is made very low (too low). 

I can put an MTM either side of the TV and it will just fit in 6.5" drivers. It could be that putting them on the rack with TV in between could act as sufficient baffle for them to get down to 80 Hz without eq. The downside is that this may not allow them to breath as freely. They could also be closed box - drivers would have an F3 @ 80 Hz, which when set to small would give them very good dynamics and power handling. I'd make the box as big as I could, stuffed full. Or a hybrid would be an open back stuffed box, which could be a good idea if the constrained space ruins the open baffle sound. 

Or maybe I should just get rid of the TV when I get a projector - it's just a convenience to have a quick screen. 

Re: AV receiver vs preamp
The preamp costs more and requires additional power amps which I would have been happy to run with the receiver amps, as Steve suggested. I had a look at Steve's blind test of receivers, which suggests the difference is not audible. There may come a day when I'm willing to spend significantly more on something that I doubt will give an audible improvement, but not before I've built a huge architectural sub bass horn in a large no-compromise dedicated music and HT room. Ahhhh, somebody pinch me! (Actually, don't I'm enjoying the thought!) ... if a pre amp/processor has other advantages that I haven't considered, that could be a consideration later. 

Steve, I'm thinking the same on the receiver issue. As far as center goes, it's something I will have to experiment with when I get to it. You've got me thinking, I didn't expect I'd build a center or even consider it. I certainly don't need one for the reason they were originally intended (preserve correct sound stage for all listening positions).


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

Backtracking to HDMI ...

I need a run from the receiver to projector for video. I've installed a conduit through the left of the window up the wall, so from a wall plate under the window I can easily later add cables to run through the ceiling.

I'm currently favouring component video at the moment for a few reasons:

* I can custom build the cables myself to the correct length - easy and cheap
* HDMI cables - I have to buy them made up to a length that won't fit nicely, are more expensive, I'm also unsure about getting wall plates and if/how I can connect them myself as I'd need to run HDMI cable from wall plate to wall plate. 
* I've heard that most favour the picture quality of component over HDMI (though I take such statements with a pinch of salt)
* None of my components have HDMI

However, I'm all for future proofing. I could probably work out how to build my own HDMI cables, which would make things look different. I prefer neat runs of cables cut to exact length. I'd like to know more about this HDMI ...

SierraMikeBravo,
Glad you brought up Audyssey Pro (didn't know what it was til I just had a look). 

I currently use Behringer Ultracurve for my mains and sub. I calibrate the response flat then add a curve to enhance bass, roll off the treble just slightly (2db). I also widen the stage a little and use a dynamic loudness contour - boosting bass at lower levels and reducing treble at high output. To many audiophiles it's a sin to even think of using something like this, but I can't imagine going back. 

To have these kinds of features built in I'd certainly like - mostly for center and surrounds. Otherwise, it means with most amps that use pre-outs then have to add on power amps because most amps don't have power amp inputs. 

Argh! This is all getting complicated!

I hear of a lot of receivers having mic and calibration features, but what I'd like to know is which ones they have. In particular, the level of eq available interests me. This is something I'd like to look into a great deal more. 

As soon as I switch from 2 channel to 5, complexity increases exponentially!


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

Teh center channel carries so much weight in movies though and you'll loose a lot of the effect by matrixing them. I'm sure the better receivers will try to make it sound like the dialog is centered by blending it equally or slightly different depending on delay from speaker distance to listening position. The lesser quality receivers will do a terrible job of it though. 

A receiver that has Audyssey MultEq XT will do a good job of setting the speaker delays and room equalizations to make it sound as good as possible. MultEQ or MultEq XT will make your room sound a little more equal at all listening positions as well. It's a lot better than parametric equalization.

The 2808ci is the lowest model Denon makes with MultEQxt. The 3808 improves upon the 2808ci by incorporating a few more nice to have features like HDCD decoding, network capability out of the box (2808 needs an add-on), USB, 2 more HDMI inputs (4 total), very nice on-screen display and 20Wpc more power. I thin kthe 3808 has better DACs too. It's msrp is $400 higher though so you'd have to weigh the value. I think the extra HDMI ports has sold me. When I upgrade my 3805 I will probably go witht eh 3808 (or 4308 if a can convince the wife).


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

I've had a look at the Denon range and the 2808ci looks VERY appealing! Quite impressed with the Audyessy system.


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## SteveCallas (Apr 29, 2006)

> I've heard that most favour the picture quality of component over HDMI (though I take such statements with a pinch of salt)


Perhaps for an analog display that would be the case. If your projector isn't CRT, I'd be sure to do a run of HDMI.


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

> I've heard that most favour the picture quality of component over HDMI (though I take such statements with a pinch of salt)


I don't think 1080p will not be available over component. See this article


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

The reason some people favor the picture quality of component over HDMI is simply that the "handshake" between the DVD player and display or receiver using HDMI is flaky at best and some people can simply not get it to work properly so they go with component. On a CRT display it will usually look better using component but not nessisaraly with LCD or DLP. And in most cases 1080p wont work over component you will only get 1080i or 720p.


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

Argh! The pricing is not fair! The denon receiver is around $1000 in the US but in Australia, we pay more like $2200! Based on current conversion rate, it should be more like $1200. 

HDMI - how exactly does one find an elegant solution to getting it from receiver to projector on the ceiling? A quick search suggests you can't make your own HDMI cable, which is what I'd need to make it to length and connect to the rear of a wall plate. Or is there a special wall plate and pre-made cable that will do it?


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## MatrixDweller (Jul 24, 2007)

Monoprice makes HDMI wall plates. I ran conduit through my ceiling to the projector and will be stretching a 25ft HDMI cable through it and connecting it to wallplates on either end. The wallplate has a female HDMI connector on the inside to connect to the cable.


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## doubeleive (Oct 31, 2007)

The Pioneer Elite Vsx-82txs Is What I Use And I Am Quite Happy With It So Far, One Nice Feature Is The Auto Setup Which You Use Once You Have All Your Speakers Connected And Placed Where You Want Them, The Unit Will Analyze Each Speaker And Adjust The Audio For Optimum Performance, It Has More Than Plenty Of Hookups For All Your Components And A Amp And Pre Amp Section, It Looks Real Nice Too, You Can Find It Within In Your Price Range Online.


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## paulspencer (May 11, 2007)

They all seem to have autosetup now, but what they don't really describe well is how sophisticated the eq system is. I think most of them are much less sophisticated than what I use currently. Ultracurve has 31 band eq and 10 bands of parametric which I use to contour the response as well as dynamic eqs and limiters to prevent overload. I'd be happy to have something that can match it for the surrounds, but I'm wary of using a system to replace it where I can't control the target eq curve, or where it just has 8 bands of eq, or some fairly limited system. Audyessy looks good, but haven't been able to figure out if I can control the curve. 

I think it may be some time before I have a 1080p display. 

I'm currently looking up Pioneer, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo and HK. Getting their spec sheets, going through the features. 

My new wishlist:

* pre-outs for all channels, or at least the main front channels
* amplifier inputs if possible to allow bi-amping
* component video upcoversion
* easy channel level adjustments by remote including sub
* future compatibility - I'd rather not have to upgrade too soon, but not sure which specific features I'd include in this - tentatively HDMI switching but not sure how long before I'd use it and if it would be in my budget
* ability to drive 3 x 4 ohm speakers (center and surrounds) with decent power

I notice most receivers aren't happy with 4 ohm loads. I read about the Denon that they won't guarantee it can handle them, which appears to be due to current demands. I'd guess that would be fine in my case if not using all the channels. My speakers are 4 ohm and I'm likely to build future speakers the same way. 

Plenty more hunting and downloading to do ... but if anyone can point me to anything that has all this within a AU $1500 budget (pref less), please let me know!


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## angelod307 (Oct 18, 2007)

hello, you should really look at the pioneer and elite models after the vrx-1015. from what you posted, they do all of the above starting at a street price of $350 and the top dog elite with a retail price of $1600. i bet you can get the premier top model for $1200-1400. good hunting.


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

paulspencer said:


> I notice most receivers aren't happy with 4 ohm loads. I read about the Denon that they won't guarantee it can handle them, which appears to be due to current demands. I'd guess that would be fine in my case if not using all the channels. My speakers are 4 ohm and I'm likely to build future speakers the same way.


Just about any receiver would be fine with a 4 ohm load at the level you are wishing to spend. In my case, I ran a full 4 ohm setup off of a Denon for about 5 years without any trouble. While they won't 'officially' support it, they do just fine. Some receivers like Yamaha include a switch for a 4 ohm load which effectively puts a resistor in the path to raise the impedence. The main concern with these receivers is heat. A 4 ohm load generates more of it. If you're worried about amp stability, another thing to consider is THX certification. THX requires the amps to be stable to 3.2 ohms and deliver reference level output without overheating or shutting down.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2007)

I agree with paulspenser about the video scaling that Denon uses. I hooked up a Denon AVR-687 receiver this weekend. It scales up video output from my VCR to look great on my new TV. As for the output to the speakers, it sounds very hot. I am sure there is a setting I'm missing.

I am not sure how to configure the Denon AVR-687 receiver and 7-channel suround sound speakers. 

Here are the specs on the one I got. 

http://www.bigscreencenter.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=INSP7200RECOMBO

Even when the TV was off and there was nothing audible coming through the speakers, I felt as though there were a painful field attacking my ears. To us the lingo I remember from mixing on a 16 channel sound board, I felt like the gain was way too high. I would get that same feeling standing next to a musician's monitor when she had asked me to increase both her gain, her signal strength in the monitor mix, and her monitor volume vastly beyond an acceptable limit. 

Trying to set up this receiver and speakers reminded me how little I learned volunteering on the sound board at church. I would wait for people to tell me what to do. I don't know how to describe my problem in the language of the Denon manual. 

Should I keep reading the manual or pack the Denon AVR-687 back up in the box?


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

kostkorp said:


> I
> Should I keep reading the manual or pack the Denon AVR-687 back up in the box?


Your question might be suited to a new thread. If it sounds like the 'gain' is to high that would indicate clipping, a form of distortion. If this is happening check your input devices and make sure they are hooked up properly. Also, make sure that any room eq that is built in to the Denon is turned off. This can make things sound very bright and trebley. Good luck!


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2007)

That's a good idea. I will check my settings again.


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## Scuba Diver (Sep 28, 2007)

At a price as low as $440.00 I would say the Onkyo 605 is the biggest bang for the buck. But I am not anything that has not been said before.


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