# Temporary Treatments as Trial to Permanent



## srckkmack (Feb 10, 2007)

I hear many people state how much of a difference room treatments make. But I'm skeptical on how much of an improvement will be made. Last upgrade I made was to use an external 5x200W amp instead of the internal amp on the Yamaha RX-V2400 (7x120W), and I must admit I was not wowed. Frankly, I didn't notice a difference (although I might if I now switched back).

Before I give my wife a sales pitch on room treatments , I'm wondering if there is something I can temporarily do with items around the house to give us a glimpse of what permanent room treatments may do. I have some spare rolls of insulation... can I use these as somewhat effective bass traps? Can I simply use blankets as temporary 1st reflection wall absorbers? Can I use sofa cushions or pillows as absorbers behind the speakers? Will these make noticable improvements to the sound?

The equipment is in our great room. The listening position is on the back wall. We have leather furniture, carpeted floors, a brick fireplace on the right (with glass doors), front entry on the left (with glass doors), and a cathedral ceiling with recessed lighting. About half of the back wall (on the right) is open to our kitchen dinette, while there is a door opening to the kitchen on the back left, and a hallway opening on the front left. Assuming it is possible to notice a substantial improvement with temporary means, where would I place the bass traps? How many rolls of insulation would I need to get a substantial improvement? How tightly must the rolls be wound? What other suggestions do you have? With this temporarily treated room, should I notice an improvement at low and at high listening levels? How much more improvement would there be with proper materials?

Thanks in advance.

-Steve


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Sit the bales in the front corners floor to ceiling. Move the couch out a foot and lay a bale behind the couch and relisten. If you don't hear a difference, then you may not be listening for the right things. I'm skeptical after you swapped out the Yammy receiver for a separate amp (if it was anything decent at all) and you heard nothing. Sorry to be so blunt but some people just aud - not listen. If you're one of those, then save your money.

Bryan


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## srckkmack (Feb 10, 2007)

I've got the Outlaw Audio 755 driving Paradigm 60V3s, 20V3s, and a CC470.

Being blunt is OK, but I don't know what you mean by "aud". I do want to improve the sound and can hear the difference from my older Klipsch speakers. Also have a nice auto sound system where more detail can be heard.

I'll give your suggestions a try, but don't think I have enough bales to stack to the ceiling in both corners.


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## basementjack (Sep 18, 2006)

steve, yeah theres a common belief that a stack of R11 rolls from home depot make great bass absorbers at About $40 each.

So put those in the corners like Bryan suggested and if you don't like the difference, then you can return it.

Also with acoustics, room interaction is what you're trying to fix - these interactions will be different in different places. so be sure to walk around the room before and after so you get a feel for whats happening all over, not just at the sweet spot.

There are cheap equalizers that some people use to 'correct' the sound - but they can only apply one eq curve, and therefore only really correct one location in the room.

What you are talking about doing has the ability to correct many locations throughout the room.

Lastly, fixing acoustics is very real, but not always very dramatic.
so you're going to need to listen for small differences.

for low frequency response, we know that smaller rooms tend to make some notes sound really loud and others really soft, so it would be helpful if you had a few CD's that have some low freqency, preferably one with multiple notes so that you might pick up when the notes are harder to hear, vs easier to hear.

(If you're thinking of putting on the lobby scene from the matrix, you probably will have a hard time hearing any difference)

wall reflections are a different beast - these interfere with the brains ability to sort out one sound from another, so if you cover the wall with a rug or whatever, what you listen for in this case is things like the depth of the soundstage, how tightly focused a voice sounds in the middle etc... As an example does a singer sound like they are coming from a baseball or a basketball sized area? (Again this is stuff to do with 2 channel CD listening) 

ok as for your amp comment, that can be a tricky situation. It's really hard for me to tell, and my ears get pretty tired pretty quick when comparing for a while. One thing that can really help is to have a friend come over and listen with you. - They may hear things initially that you don't - same would be true for the acoustics stuff...


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

OK. You definitely have a system capable of the kind of detail that would be improved by treating a room. As Jack said, listening is key. Once you hear what it happening, you won't like going back. There are other things that need to be done in the room but they're tough to do temporarily without spending some money - things like first reflection points, dealing with boundary interference behind the speakers, etc.

Probably the best way to go about this is to do what I suggested and then put on some favorite demo cuts and listen carefully. Also, make sure you put on some things with heavy bass - maybe some jazz acoustic bass, etc. Listen for a few days and listen specifically to the bottom end extension, tightness, slam, clarity of vocals, etc. Also, do some HT watching/listening on things where dialog can be difficult to hear. Then, after a few days, remove the treatments and repeat and see what's changed. Sometimes it's easier to do it that way rather than listening for what it's doing when you first change it.

Auding is a term for sensing sound. There are 3 levels, auding, hearing, and listening. Listening is the most critical where you're specifically paying attention to the sounds for their sake and not as part of the whole necessarily. 

Bryan


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## Bob_99 (May 8, 2006)

Honestly, until you hear the soundstage open up after you properly treat a room, you can't understand what a difference it makes. Listen to what Bryan says and you won't go wrong. If someone like me who can't understand music and sound, can hear the difference, then there is no question, you will. It is simply AMAZING!

Bob


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## srckkmack (Feb 10, 2007)

Thanks for the suggestions and I welcome more. It's been real busy, so I don't think I'll have time to try these suggestions until this weekend (maybe I can squeeze some time in before then). I'm sure I'll get some wierd looks from my better half, but she's pretty tolerant of me.

I'm looking for more clarity in movies, and more details in music. Much like a good set of headphones can give you. I'm hoping to hear a difference. I can clap my hands and it seems like the echo goes on and on. So I'm sure this happens with the sounds from the speakers too.

Ever since getting involved in these forums, it seems like I am now diseased. I used to just listen to music or a movie and enjoy it, but now I want to notice all the sound details. I bet this disease is infectious!


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

What you're describing you're after is exactly what good BROADBAND treatment in a room will give you. 

You're halfway there - having a tolerant spouse is a big benefit.

Bryan


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## srckkmack (Feb 10, 2007)

Well, I made some time last night due to cancellation of some plans. I got the expected responses like "What are you doing?" and "That's coming down tonight, right?". When I told her it was temporary, she was OK with it. She even helped find the first reflection points.

Anyway, I used all the spare insulation rolls I had, which allowed me to have a 4-foot stack in the front-right, 5-foot stack in the front-left, and one bale behind the listening couch. I also hung a blanket on the fireplace mantle at the right-side 1st reflection pt, and placed a blanket over the couch at the left-side 1st reflection pt. It got kind of late, so I didn't get any sort of critical listening done. I'll try tonight.

Does this sound like enough? Should I put the left side sound absorber (ie, blanket or equivalent) against a wall instead of the leather couch. The couch blocked the clear sight to the wall, that's why I placed the blanket there, but maybe I should use the wall. Should I do anything else temporarily to help with the improvements before critically listening?


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

I think that will give you a taste of what is possible. 

For the reflection point, if the couch is high enough that it's where the actual point is, put the blanket there - but plan to do some rearranging later.

Bryan


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## basementjack (Sep 18, 2006)

So.... How does it sound?


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## srckkmack (Feb 10, 2007)

Actually, I think it sounds better. Maybe it's because I want it to sound better, but the sound does seem cleaner. A before/after comparison and preferably if it can be done quickly would probably show it to be more than subtle. I also realize a more permanent solution should show marked improvement over these temporary measures (ie, thin blanket vs panel, 1/2 to cieling vs full, etc).

I've taken a picture from our dinette looking into the room. The prime listening position is on the couch just barely visible on the left (with the remote on the armrest). Notice the 4-ft stack in the right corner and (you can barely see it) the 5 -ft stack in the left corner. The blanket is hanging from the mantle on the right, and another blanket is just visible on the left couch. As you can see, I have nothing behind the speakers on the front wall; I don't know if putting some absorption there would make a noticable improvement. I'm trying to figure out what I might have around to place behind the front speakers as temporary absorbers. I have some egg-carton-like foam, would that work?

I'll do more listening tonight. After adding treatments I didn't run the automatic parameter setting (YPAO) on my receiver. Do you think it is necessary? Any other suggestions?

I think I'll have to work fast, as the treatments are wearing out their welcome. Perhaps its the 5-ft stack wrapped in red plastic, or maybe the blanket over the mantle being held by some oak firewood, or...






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## srckkmack (Feb 10, 2007)

Well, the blankets came down last weekend. And the corner insulation stacks, including the insulation behind the listening couch, were removed two nights ago. I've noticed the quality of the sound seems to have decreased :sad:. The bass is a little more muffled and the highs are not as distinct. It's interesting that it seems more noticable when the treatment is removed than when it is added. I'm convinced treatment with proper materials and in proper locations will improve the listening experience, probably and hopefully much more dramatically than with these temporary measures. Now I just have to be creative in treating the room while keeping it aesthetically pleasing; a task that may not be easy. No problem if this were downstairs in the rec-room, but more difficult being in our great room.


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## bpape (Sep 14, 2006)

Yup. Many times it's easier to hear when it gets worse than when it gets better - especially since you kind of did the minimalist thing just to get an idea. As you do more (within reason) you'll get even more improvement in the same areas and better imaging also.

Good luck with the convincing. :boxer: 

Bryan


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## JimP (May 18, 2006)

Any updates??


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## srckkmack (Feb 10, 2007)

No, the sound just continues to sound muddy. Now I almost wish I hadn't tried the temporary treatments because I did notice a difference and now I want it back and then some. I'm not real handy with woodworking and such, so I'm going to start researching pre-made sound treatments. Then I'll put a proposal together to get approval.


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## Bob_99 (May 8, 2006)

Good Luck!

Bob


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## John N (Jan 2, 2007)

srckkmack said:


> Then I'll put a proposal together to get approval.


What I'm thinking of doing is buying or making panels and then matching the wall color to the panel to help blend them into the decor. Seams a lot easier than trying to find a panel color to match the paint.
I have to repaint my rec room anyway.

Where did you buy your Paradigms? (I have studio 40vr.2 that I bought in Racine)


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## srckkmack (Feb 10, 2007)

Matching panel colors is a good idea. Sometimes contrasting colors is also good from an artsy point of view. Also, if you can't match colors exactly, contrasting colors will look better than closely matching colors, in my opinion.

I think I can place broadband absorbers behind the speakers, but the first reflection points are more challenging. I've got a brick fireplace on the right and a front foyer doorway (with glass doors) on the left. So I've got to be creative there; probably somthing portable. I should be OK with corner bass traps, but there is some artwork hanging in one corner that may have to move. This is our front room, not a dedicated theater and not a rec-room, so aesthetics are important.

The Paradigms are from Al's Stereo in Racine. Probably where you bought yours. Audio Emporium in Brown Deer also carries them. I went there and they carry and were pushing B&W's, but I decided to purchase from Al's.


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## Bob_99 (May 8, 2006)

> I've got a brick fireplace on the right and a front foyer doorway (with glass doors) on the left.


 Those could be a good spot for panels on a stand, if you have a convenient place to put them when they're not in use.

Bob


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## John N (Jan 2, 2007)

I just ordered some GIK 244 to try and cut some of the echo from my rec room (I'll need more later) with a tile floor. 

I used to have my system in the loft but it did not go well with my 18 month old son.

I've bought a lot of stuff at Al's over the years (my dad had them do a stereo in his brand new 1984 GTI)

The guy I dealt with the most was Mike but he does not work there anymore. I liked that they were not pushy.


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