# Emotiva experience? XPA-5, UMC-1



## number 5

I searched the forum, and I didn't find a lot of information about Emotiva. I'd never heard of them until I noticed their ads coming up on this forum. They seem like a lot of bang for the buck, but I'm wondering if anyone has experience with them.

Unless I've overlooked something, it appears that coupling the XPA-5 amp with the UMC-1 audio/video processor would yield the basis of a fairly full-featured 5.1 HT system. Just add speakers and monitor. Or am I missing a component? 

The XPA-5 seems like a monster amp at 200W per channel at 8 ohms. And that's with all channels driven, continuous power. 1000W total continuous power according to the Emotiva web site. The THD is .1%, which is not as low as I'd like. SNR is 111db. 

The UMC-1 audio/video processor is a brand new product. Reading off the web site, there are five HDMI 1.3a inputs and one output. There are three composite, S-video, and component inputs, and one component video out. It also has one 7.1 analog (RCA) input set and one 7.1 analog output set; can someone tell me what those are for? I don't see anything labeled "pre-out". It's got four coax (RCA) and three digital (TOSLINK) inputs and one each output. It's got an AM/FM tuner. It has DVD, CD, Cable, and Aux RCA inputs too. I don't see a headphone jack. And then it has some other outputs that I don't know the purpose of. 

The UMC-1 processor has "Decoding support for Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby Digital True HD, Dolby PLIIx, DTS, DTSES, DTS HD, DTS Master Audio, DTS Neo 6, SPDIF, PCM 8 channel (note: some audio formats are only supported via HDMI)" according to the web site. Are there any significant ones missing from that lineup?

Eventually I'm sure I'll catch on to all the connection requirements and components needed for a system, but for now it is still all a bit fuzzy to me. Can someone tell me if the UMC-1 is also a pre-amp? Or would a separate pre-amp need to be positioned between it and the XPA-5 power amplifier?

Now I'm off to go look at some Yamaha, Denon, and Onkyo AVRs. Having everything in one unit is easier to understand, although I think it also obfuscates understanding how all the discrete parts of the unit relate to each other. Before I buy anything I want to understand where equipment like these Emotiva units fits in with those other A/V receivers and how they compare.

five


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## nova

There are a couple of Emotiva owners here. Unfortunately I am not one of them. I'm sure they'll be along soon with some comments.


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## eugovector

Well formatted post with easy to understand questions:

No experience, but their equipment is generally well regarded as good performers and great value.

No you're not missing anything, and .1% distortion is usually the figure used for maximum acceptable value (no perceptible distortion), so don't sweat it.

7.1 ins used for sources that externally decode audio, such as a blu-ray player with analog outs. You likely won't use them but they do insure that, regardless of what new audio formats come down the pipe, you'll always be able to take advantage of them.

7.1 outs are what you connect to your amp.

No missing audio formats.

UMC-1 is a pre-amp. Does all processing, but no amplifying.

If you do buy from Emotiva, make sure they know that you first came upon them here at the shack. It helps keep the forums running.


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## number 5

Thanks Mark and Marshall. I do hope some of the Emotiva owners will chime in. I'd like to know if anyone has heard and can compare the Emotiva XPA-5 plus UMC-1 (or the now-discontinued LMC-1) with the Rotel 1560. The Rotel lacks some features found in the Emotiva UMC-1, which lacks some features found in the Yamaha/Denon/Onkyo receivers in the $1500 to $1900 price range. The Rotel is the most expensive offering among those I've listed, and is a class D design, which has pluses and minues. I also understand from reviews that the Rotel is not the easiest unit to set up and configure. But sound quality is the most important thing, so hearing from someone who has experienced both Emotiva and Rotel would be helpful.


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## recruit

The Emotiva UMC1 is getting a lot of interest around forums lately and at $699 it seems to be a bargain, lots of features for a very good price, Rotel have always been good for solid products and excellent SQ but lacking in the bells and whistles that others throw in, the new 15 series amps are extremely good and based on ICEpower, I have had a 1575 for a few months now and am completely satisfied with its performance and quite a few manufacturers are using this power amp technology, IIRC Pioneer are now using it also in there AV amp range...


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## jackfish

There are a variety of ways to interpret power ratings.

Here are the ratings for the Emotiva XPA-5:
All Channels Driven at 1Khz, 250 watts RMS per channel into 8 Ohms (0.04% THD)
All Channels Driven at 20Hz-20kHz, 200 watts RMS per channel into 8 Ohms (0.1% THD)

You'll just have to accept that the Emotiva XPA-5 provides something under 200 watts per channel with all channels driven at 20Hz-20kHz into 8 Ohms with 0.04% THD. That "something under" is likely at least 150 watts.

The Emotiva UMC-1 and XPA-5 I listened to driving PSB Imagine T towers, center and bookshelves with a PSB SubSeries 500 subwoofer accounted themselves very well. One of the best home theaters I have listened to and watched (60" Sharp Aquos LCD and Samsung Blu-ray) to date.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Emotiva really has made a name for themselves for offering stupendous values. Especially in the realm of amplifiers.
Here are a couple of reviews of XPA Series Amplifiers: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/power-amplifiers/496.html?showall=1
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/amplifiers/emotiva-xpa-2-stereo-power-amplifier

They offer plenty of power and heavy duty transformers and capacitors to back it up. All at prices that seem too good to be true. There are many Emotiva fans all over the internet with some almost seeming fanatical about the company.

I really like the XPA Series. I am a fan of Class A/AB power amplifiers with large transformers and a goodly amount of capacitance. Emotiva also offers amplifiers that are not A/AB with much of their lineup being Class H. Class H is similar to Class G and is cooler running and more efficient than Class A or A/AB.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Jon Liu

As JJ said, Emotiva's products are stupendous values. They really compete, performance-wise, with higher priced models without being high priced themselves. I really enjoyed my Emotiva MPS-2 when I had it and now my brother is enjoying it. The reason I eventually moved away from them is to get more power. I wanted lots more power for my front speakers and the Emo was limited in overall power.


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## number 5

Since I've been auditioning various amps and speakers lately, I've learned to appreciate the value of auditioning. Being unlearned and largely ignorant of audio specifications, I find myself unable to relate what I read on paper to what I hear when I listen to the equipment. I have found that I can't judge whether or not I'll like the sound based on the specs. 

I continue to be interested in the Emotiva products, especially at the price, but I'm ruling them out for now since I can't audition them. Right now I have no HT or stereo system at all since my amp died, so getting some quality sight and sound back into my home is my number one priority. I am approaching it cautiously, so as to avoid ending up with something I'm not totally pleased with. 

I'm leaning toward Rotel RSX-1550 and B&W 804S fronts with HTM3S or 4S center. I have auditioned several combinations of A/V receiver amp and speakers, and these, at least within my budget, seem best to my ears so far. I'm going to audition again this evening, in fact. 

Emotiva does have a great 30 day return policy. I may try them at some point. I'll compare them with whatever I decide to buy first, and the loser will go up on Audiogon.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I greatly respect the desire to audition a piece of equipment prior to making a purchase. Have you listened to the Rotel with the 804's? Why I am asking is that in my experience, B&W 800 Series sound their best with at least 200 WPC. Given that Rotel and B&W are almost always sold at the same stores, I would guess that you have.

That would be an excellent system. If possible, try to audition an Onkyo TX-SR876 if there is a dealer in your area. The 876 weighs 15 more pounds than the 1550 with almost all of that weight being in the amplifier section. Furthermore, the 876 features Reon video processing which is excellent.
Cheers,
JJ


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## dyohn

I'm currently using two of their amplifiers and think they are some of the best bang for the buck pieces I've ever used. The sound quality for HT is on par with anything else I've ever heard and better than some - far superior to anything I've ever heard from a receiver. Overall I say give them a try.


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## number 5

Hi JJ. Yes, I've listened to older 10xx series amps and the 1550 with the 804S speakers. They all seemed like they had plenty of power to drive the speakers, but being a novice with high quality gear, I could be missing something. I'm going to another store to listen to the class D Rotel amp (1560) this evening. 

I'm also a little concerned about whether the Rotel amps have the power to drive the 804S, but mainly just based on comments like yours. The salesman at the audio store where I auditioned the 804S opined that the Rotel could drive them, but he said the Denon 3310ci I was also looking at might be hard pressed, even if bi-amping the main speakers. 

The Denon 3310ci is rated at 120 WPC, but they don't describe on their web site how they test. The conservative assumption is that it is based on a 1kHz test for one channel at a time, which tends to overstate the real world power. 

According to Rotel, the 1550 has 75 watts x 5/ch (20-20kHz, <0.05% THD, 8 ohms), and is a class A/B design. The 1560 has 100 watts x 7/ch (20-20kHz, <0.03% THD, 8 ohms). 

It's hard to directly compare the Onkyo amp that you mentioned, the TX-SR876, because they don't list the specs in the same way. They are listed for 2 channels at a time, like this: 

Front L/R - 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
Center - 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
Surround - 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
Surround Back - 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)

The difficulty in comparing specs from one vendor to the next is one reason why I'm auditioning. One problem with that approach though, is that if I go to another dealer to listen to amps that the B&W dealer doesn't carry, I probably won't be able to compare the sound on the same 804S speakers. It's a bit frustrating, an apples and oranges scenario.


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## number 5

dyohn said:


> I'm currently using two of their amplifiers and think they are some of the best bang for the buck pieces I've ever used. The sound quality for HT is on par with anything else I've ever heard and better than some - far superior to anything I've ever heard from a receiver. Overall I say give them a try.


What speakers are you using? Which Emotiva amps?


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## Jungle Jack

number 5 said:


> Hi JJ. Yes, I've listened to older 10xx series amps and the 1550 with the 804S speakers. They all seemed like they had plenty of power to drive the speakers, but being a novice with high quality gear, I could be missing something. I'm going to another store to listen to the class D Rotel amp (1560) this evening.
> 
> I'm also a little concerned about whether the Rotel amps have the power to drive the 804S, but mainly just based on comments like yours. The salesman at the audio store where I auditioned the 804S opined that the Rotel could drive them, but he said the Denon 3310ci I was also looking at might be hard pressed, even if bi-amping the main speakers.
> 
> The Denon 3310ci is rated at 120 WPC, but they don't describe on their web site how they test. The conservative assumption is that it is based on a 1kHz test for one channel at a time, which tends to overstate the real world power.
> 
> According to Rotel, the 1550 has 75 watts x 5/ch (20-20kHz, <0.05% THD, 8 ohms), and is a class A/B design. The 1560 has 100 watts x 7/ch (20-20kHz, <0.03% THD, 8 ohms).
> 
> It's hard to directly compare the Onkyo amp that you mentioned, the TX-SR876, because they don't list the specs in the same way. They are listed for 2 channels at a time, like this:
> 
> Front L/R - 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
> Center - 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
> Surround - 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
> Surround Back - 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
> 
> The difficulty in comparing specs from one vendor to the next is one reason why I'm auditioning. One problem with that approach though, is that if I go to another dealer to listen to amps that the B&W dealer doesn't carry, I probably won't be able to compare the sound on the same 804S speakers. It's a bit frustrating, an apples and oranges scenario.


Number 5,
Actually looking at the specific specs of your speakers, 90db efficient, 8 ohm nominal load, you really might be alright with the Rotel driving them. Your room size and listening habits will have a huge say in how happy you will be with the Rotel driving the 804S. Looking at this review :http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_3/b&w-804s-htm3s-speakers-8-2005-part-1.html
it does show the 804 does dip down to 4 ohms, but not through the entire frequency range.

Here are the measurements for the TX-SR875 which has the identical amplifier section:http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/receivers/2463/test-bench-onkyo-tx-sr875-av-receiver.html
Given how inexpensive the XPA-2 is, I would still advocate picking up one of them to drive your 804's.
The XPA-2 puts out a solid 400 watts into 4 ohms and will better harness your speaker.

If not the Emotiva as an add on, the Onkyo has far greater drive capability. While looking at the RSX-1550 at Rotel's website, I noticed it was rated at 75 WPC ACD. And in reading the reviews provided by Rotel on its website for the 1550, one review described the difficulties when driving Von Schweikert speakers when under review. Here is the link for the review: http://www.rotel.com/content/reviews/15 series/rsx1550-equip_rotel_cm.pdf

If it was not for the fact that you are using B&W's 800 Series, I would not even think twice about using the Rotel. Having much experience listening to them, I just honestly believe truly shine when given lots of current.
Cheers,
JJ


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## jackfish

You *can* audition Emotiva stuff, with your speakers, in your room. All it will cost you is the return shipping if you make a return.

From the Emotiva website: "Emotiva offers a 30 day, no questions asked and hassle-free, return policy. Simply call 1-877-EMO-TECH for an RMA number. Once we have received your unit(s), checking to make sure they are intact, we will issue a refund for the full purchase amount. It’s that simple!"


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## number 5

So if I "auditioned" the Emotiva amps, what would likely make a better setup for providing plenty of power to the speakers? The XPA-2 at 250 watts per channel (2 channels) plus the XPA-3 at 200 watts per channel (3 channels), or the XPA-5 at 200 watts per channel (5 channels). I'm going for a 5.1 setup, not 7.1. Of course, in this case I'd probably team up the amp choices with the UMC-1 pre/pro. 

By the way, isn't the .1% THD on these amps fairly marginal when you compare it with .05% or .08% that is common on many other mid-range choices (Rotel, Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha)?


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## eugovector

Well, at the risk of stating the obvious, the 2/3 combo would give you more rated power. If you're asking if that extra 50watts is warranted, if you have the money and space in your rack, sure, why not. However, IMHO, unless you have a very large room or inefficient speakers, the 5 would probably suit you just fine.

If you're on a budget, but still think you want the most power, start with the 3 and get an AVR with 7.1 outs. Run the front 3 off your amp and the surrounds off the AVR. Like what you hear? Buy the 2nd amp when you have the scratch.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I would go with the XPA-2 and XPA-3 combo over the XPA-5. Here's why, believe it or not the XPA-2 shares the same toroidal transformer (1.2 kVA) as the XPA-5 and only 6000u less capacitance than the XPA-5. That is the XPA-2 has virtually the same power supply as the XPA-5.

While the XPA-3 is not nearly as impressive as the XPA-2, when the two are combined you would have a 2 kVA toroidal transformer (almost twice as large a transformer as the XPA-5) and more capacitance with the XPA-2/XPA-3 over the XPA-5. And, if two channel stereo performance is important to you, you will have an awesome two channel amplifier and a very capable three channel amplifier for the Center and Surround Channels.

While the more expensive solution, the XPA-2/XPA-3 combo would offer much more power and far, far greater power reserves. And if you are still planning on going with B&W 804S's, it really is a no brainer as those are awesome speakers and well deserving of the much higher current reserves of the XPA-2.
Cheers,
JJ


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## number 5

JJ, it makes sense. I thank you and everyone else who is helping to contribute to my education in this thread. I very well may go with Emotiva as a result.

Can someone explain what the significance of higher capacitance is? 

five


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## eugovector

As I understand it, stored power for highly dynamic sound. Your levels may bounce along just fine, but when there's a big dB increase, you need the stored power.

Re-reading that, it was a pretty horrible explanation, but I can think of a good analogy right now. How about this...the capacitors are the town water tower. If everyone flushes the toilet at once, you'll need more water than just the water pump can provide.


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## dyohn

number 5 said:


> What speakers are you using? Which Emotiva amps?


My speakers are my own design. I own the UPA-7 for HT and a UPA-2 for a second zone. The UPA-7 replaced a set of amps that cost more than 10X and the difference in sound quality was non-existent.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
I like to think of capacitors as batteries. They store energy and when there is a peak on a piece of music or often in a movie, they act as a reservoir for power. They also smooth ripple on supply voltage.

Having a high level of capacitance allows for huge peaks of stable power when the moment demands it.
Cheers,
JJ


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## number 5

Here is a presentation-format PDF from HiFi Critic discussing class D amps. They conclude that class D amplifiers are not HiFi. 

Are Class "D" Amplifiers High Fidelity?

Very interesting. It is pretty thorough, even though it is neither written as a "white paper" or as a article. But there is plenty of detail in the presentation. After reading it, I have strong misgivings about class D amps.


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## recruit

number 5 said:


> Here is a presentation-format PDF from HiFi Critic discussing class D amps. They conclude that class D amplifiers are not HiFi.
> 
> Are Class "D" Amplifiers High Fidelity?
> 
> Very interesting. It is pretty thorough, even though it is neither written as a "white paper" or as a article. But there is plenty of detail in the presentation. After reading it, I have strong misgivings about class D amps.


Hi number 5, 

I think to dismiss/confirm any misgivings you really need to hear a class D amp in action, I was not expecting to be overly impressed with the new Rotel 1575 but it is very good indeed, at present I have an Arcam AVR600 on home demo and am using as a processor with the 1575 powering my M&K's and the sound is exquisite to say the least...

I think there is good and bad designs in all types of amplification, and there is a lot of myths related to the class D debate and whether it can really be as good for hifi as say class A amps, my real passion was at first HiFi and have had some very good systems over the years, and it is all very subjective and more down to different peoples preferences rather than a particular class of amp being better or worse for HiFi, ie some people prefer a warmer sound ala valves whereas I prefer a crisp dynamic presentation which is what the rotel delivers in spades...

Its all good in the end but the best advice is to listen first before coming to any conclusions


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## dyohn

The article makes the mistake of broad claims based on limited sample size. It is certainly true that some Class D amplifiers are better executed than others (as can be said about ALL amplifiers) and that some will exhibit switching noise. But to state that one test sample indicates all Class D is bad is spurious at best. Also, noise out of the audible band is, well, inaudible. 

There are some very fine implementations of Class D and its variations out there, and the bad sounding examples from the past are becoming few and far between. I own an Alpine car amplifier based on the B&O IcePower module, and a home amplifier based on the Hypex Class D modules, and both sound very outstanding indeed.

And BTW, since this is a thread about Emotiva amplifiers, it is worth noting that none of their current offerings are Class D - indeed, they have never to my knowledge produced a class D amplifier. All their currently available amps are class A/B.


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
Recruit, glad that you are pleased with the performance of the Rotel. I have heard great things about the Arcam as well and am intrigued. However, I believe that the Arcam has a Class G amplifier section and is not digital or Class D and incorporates a large toroidal power transformer. Class G amplifiers do however consume less power and are more efficient than class A/AB amplifiers.

I am seriously considering the AVR600 in addition to Sherwood Newcastle's R-972 as my next AVR. Or perhaps the AV888 though the more I read about the performance of the Arcam's amplifier section, the more I am contemplating the 600 as opposed to the 888.

Sherwood Newcastle's R-972 is using Trinnov room EQ and the reports have been overwhelmingly positive. Prior to its inclusion in the Sherwood unit, Trinnov was only offered in 13,000 Dollar processors and were employed by several Movie Studio's for their reference systems.
Cheers,
JJ


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## recruit

Hi JJ,

Yes, you are right, the Arcam does indeed have a class G amplification, tomorrow I am going to run my M&K's by the AVR600 alone without the Rotel which should be interesting, also hopefully will have an AV888 to try out also and will use with the Rotel 1575 so should be a fun week for me :whistling:

I am going to try and write up my thoughts on both the Arcam units and post it here, but from just 2 days of listening to the 600 it has to be one of finest sounds I have heard to date, I dont know how they have done it but it gives a truly exquisite sound, with thunderous bass when required...obviously this is using the Rotel as the poweramp as I have not heard it by its internals amps yet but by all reports it is very special indeed and runs in class A mode up to 20watts.

Anyway I wont take this off topic any further and post in a seperate thread once I have finished listening to both of them.

The sherwoods have always had a good following and the EQ system sounds intriguing 

cheers

John




Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> Recruit, glad that you are pleased with the performance of the Rotel. I have heard great things about the Arcam as well and am intrigued. However, I believe that the Arcam has a Class G amplifier section and is not digital or Class D and incorporates a large toroidal power transformer. Class G amplifiers do however consume less power and are more efficient than class A/AB amplifiers.
> 
> I am seriously considering the AVR600 in addition to Sherwood Newcastle's R-972 as my next AVR. Or perhaps the AV888 though the more I read about the performance of the Arcam's amplifier section, the more I am contemplating the 600 as opposed to the 888.
> 
> Sherwood Newcastle's R-972 is using Trinnov room EQ and the reports have been overwhelmingly positive. Prior to its inclusion in the Sherwood unit, Trinnov was only offered in 13,000 Dollar processors and were employed by several Movie Studio's for their reference systems.
> Cheers,
> JJ


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## number 5

dyohn said:


> The article makes the mistake of broad claims based on limited sample size. It is certainly true that some Class D amplifiers are better executed than others (as can be said about ALL amplifiers) and that some will exhibit switching noise. But to state that one test sample indicates all Class D is bad is spurious at best. Also, noise out of the audible band is, well, inaudible.
> 
> There are some very fine implementations of Class D and its variations out there, and the bad sounding examples from the past are becoming few and far between. I own an Alpine car amplifier based on the B&O IcePower module, and a home amplifier based on the Hypex Class D modules, and both sound very outstanding indeed.
> 
> And BTW, since this is a thread about Emotiva amplifiers, it is worth noting that none of their current offerings are Class D - indeed, they have never to my knowledge produced a class D amplifier. All their currently available amps are class A/B.


True, the Emotiva is class AB. I was also looking at Wyred 4 Sound's ST-1000 which is class D, built around the Bang & Olufsen ICEpower technology. So my comment about class D amps was misplaced in this thread.


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## Teyry

I have an Emotiva XPA-5 along with (2) XPA monoblocks. I've had them about a month now. The XPA-5 sounds excellent and performs flawlessly. Over the past 20 years I have ownes amps by Sony ES, Acurus, the Classe CA-200 & CAV-75, Pass Labs X-150 and the Anthem MCA-20 & MCA-50. The Emotiva's sound as good or better than any of my previous amps and more bang for the buck then all of them.
The only flaw I have found is a slight pinging sound that occassionally occurs on "one" of my XPA-1 monoblocks when warming up and cooling down. Emotiva stated that this is the normal expansion/contraction of the heat sinks. You can only hear it on very quiet passages for about the first 30 minutes it is turned on and after you have turned it off. It might occur once every 5 minutes or so. If music is playing you usually cannot hear it.


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## ironglen

Perhaps someone will correct me if I'm wrong-if you do not use blu-ray, then perhaps you could use an older processor to handle any audio processing from regular dvd's without compromise; however, if using (or potentially upgrading) to blu-ray, you must use a newer 1.3 hdmi-capable processor in order to utilize the newer format audio on blu-ray. You cannot use the 7.1 preouts from a higher-end blu-ray player sent to an older processor's inputs and obtain the newer format audio quality, correct?

Anyone (else) have any reservations about buying the UMC-1 as a first run vs another company's 'proven' processor?


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## Jungle Jack

ironglen said:


> Perhaps someone will correct me if I'm wrong-if you do not use blu-ray, then perhaps you could use an older processor to handle any audio processing from regular dvd's without compromise; however, if using (or potentially upgrading) to blu-ray, you must use a newer 1.3 hdmi-capable processor in order to utilize the newer format audio on blu-ray. You cannot use the 7.1 preouts from a higher-end blu-ray player sent to an older processor's inputs and obtain the newer format audio quality, correct?
> 
> Anyone (else) have any reservations about buying the UMC-1 as a first run vs another company's 'proven' processor?


Hello,
Actually, you can use an older processor provided it has multichannel inputs to receive the newest codecs (True-HD, DTS-MA) The player decodes and sends the signal via 6 channels of interconnects. You will have to rely on the player to do bass management, speaker distance and level matching. In addition, compared to a 1.3 processor, you also lose room EQ (Audyssey, MCACC) With the exception of the 5K Pioneer VSX-49TX/59 and a handful of other pre HDMI processors, using the multichannel inputs bypasses everything. Whereas the Pioneer actually could do bass management. That was a mixed bag in that the pristine signal was then converted to PCM.

And with an older HDMI processor, you can still get the codecs as well. You just cannot bitstream them and have your processor or receiver decode them. Thus, your AVR/SSP will not light up True-HD or DTS-MA. The player will output PCM to an HDMI 1.1 or 1.2 AVR as multichannel PCM. In theory the SQ should be the same. An example being even with a current 1.3 processor, the original PS3 could not bitstream True HD and DTS-MA. However, it could decode it internally and send it as PCM. Moreover, the first Blu Ray Players could not bitstream True-HD or DTS-MA. However, with an earlier HDMI processor, you do have access to the processors/AVR's bass management, speaker distance settings, room EQ.
Cheers,
JJ


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## ironglen

Thanks for the reply-sorry I'm a bit fuzzy on this stuff. What I gather is if using an older processor, say an outlaw 970/990, both of which have no hdmi but rather 7.1 inputs (rca), the processor will pretty much pass the signal through to the amp, thus losing control of many functions. Therefore, if using a player with True-HD or DTS-MA, you really NEED a current 1.3 processor to obtain the sound, otherwise, as far as sound is concerned, you may as well use standard dvd along with a DTS or dolby digital capable processor. Of course, this is from a purely audio standpoint. Am I correct on all this?


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## eugovector

Nope, if using 7.1 inputs, you'll just have to set the speaker size/crossover in your player, not the receiver. You'll also likely not be able to take advantage of any EQ built into the pre.

However, for the price of those outlaws you mentioned, you could get a standard AVR with HDMI 1.3 and pre-outs that could easily be sold or transferred to a bedroom system when you're done with it.


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## ironglen

Thanks for the enlightening info, however, I realized that I've been beating around the bush on my line of questioning, so here it is: most modestly priced processor/receivers seem to negatively influence the video (supposedly pass-though, but actually tainting the video-at least to some degree), and as a result what is the best way of splitting/passing/utilizing the signal without degradation or spending a fortune. Or is 1.3 the best of AV and should I just 'buck up' and buy it? It seems redundant to buy a receiver/processor AND blu-ray (more than one piece of equipment) to process a signal when one will do... Thanks again for all of your explanations.:bigsmile:


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## eugovector

HDMI 1.3 speaks nothing to the performance of a piece of equipment, other than what it is capable of (bitstream audio, deep color, etc). Whether a company chooses to implement these into their products is up to them (but most do).

Right now Blu-ray is the only real game in town for Dolby True-HD, so no need to even worry about it if you won't be playing blu-ray. But, yes, if your AVR decodes True-hd, you can get a blu-ray player with only HDMI out, and no 7.1 analog outs.

As for negatively processing the video, I don't think this is a common occurrence. Yes, it is preferable that, if feed a 1080p signal, the receiver will send it through un-altered. I know the current midrange Onkyos (faroudja) took some flack for altering the video signal, and there may be a few others out there that have a similar problem, but I don't know that I've ever head anyone attest that these alteration were apparent to the eye as opposed to the test equipment (which I try to keep locked away while watching movies). This alteration is not attributed to a particular version of HDMI, or even the particular video processing chip used, just one manufacturers implementation of these technologies.

In other words, at the price range you're looking at, you are more than justified in expecting an unaltered video signal, and I'm sure that if you address your specific concern to the manufacturer of the equipment you're looking to buy, and/or search for independent reviews, and they can inform you. As for the Emotiva Pre, it's not out yet, so you'd have to wait for independent testing.


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## ironglen

This is off amazon for the samsung bd-p3600:
The BD-P3600 boasts full HD 1080p playback of Blu-ray discs, and crisp upconversion of standard DVDs through the HDMI 1.3 connection. For a true, Hollywood-quality experience, the player can internally decode the latest high-resolution digital multichannel audio soundtracks, including Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and dts-HD HR / MA. The BD-P3600 can also output any of the soundtracks as a bitstream through its 7.1-Channel analog audio outputs, or as an uncompressed PCM signal, for consumers desiring the best cinematic sound with an older A/V receiver.

What connection passes pcm? If it's not optical, then I have no clue. I looked in the glossary, but it didn't specify. In the last statement, that 'best cinematic sound' is not comparable to the audio sent hdmi, but rather the best an older receiver can do?


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
The multichannel analog outputs of the Samsung send the PCM soundtrack to the AVR. The PCM is converted to analog in this case. It is still of a very high quality. With older pre 1.3 HDMI AVR's the Samsung will send an uncompressed PCM stream to the AVR. In this case, many believe the sound quality will be identical to having the AVR decoding the codec.
Cheers,
AD


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## Sycraft

Jungle Jack said:


> Hello,
> I greatly respect the desire to audition a piece of equipment prior to making a purchase. Have you listened to the Rotel with the 804's? Why I am asking is that in my experience, B&W 800 Series sound their best with at least 200 WPC. Given that Rotel and B&W are almost always sold at the same stores, I would guess that you have.


The reason they are usually sold together is B&W owns Rotel. As such they generally pair their speakers with their amps. You'll also notice the high end speakers often get paired with Classe amps, and that is again for the same reason: B&W owns Classe. So they are the amps matched to their speakers, so to speak.

That was one of the reasons I got my Rotel amp back in the day, since I had and liked B&W speakers.

Personally I'm real interested in Emotiva amps. They finally got around to posting a full set of Audio Precision test data and their amps look exceedingly solid. One of the things that impresses me is that despite being quite high power, they are better than 90dB SNR at 1 watt. This is important since you spend a awful lot of your time playing at levels around there. So it is important to have a good SNR at low levels to get good detail in your music. Also important because if it is too high, you'll get audible hiss at idle.

Rotel amps are the same way, by the way (at least the old AB amps, haven't looked at the D amps yet). Exceedingly low noise overall, translating in to low noise at low wattage.

Emotiva amps also are no when it comes to their power and current output. They have a massive power stage backing them (as their AP tests show). Means their ratings are nice and conservative and their power levels are "Power the amp can sustain all the time, and maintain low distortion." Again same deal on Rotel. A 70 watt RB-1050 doesn't mean 70 watts absolute max, it means 70 watts without any rise in distortion. In both cases the massive amount of current means they can drive complex speakers without problems usually.

At any rate, if I decide I want another amp, I'll probably give Emotiva a shot. Their designs remind me of Rotel in a number of ways, but their are a good deal cheaper.


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## recruit

Rotel are at the lower end of the scale for B&W 800 speakers, classe and the B&W 800 series sound so much better together...and yes they all come under the B&W umbrella...


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## Adamant22

Sorry to jump into the middle of a thread like this...
But my Sunfire Ultimate Receiver is dying.

I'm considering the Arcam AVR600, but I like the fact that the Emotiva (UMC-1 & XPA-5) will be about 1/3 of the price.
Also I feel like I get burned by investing in a receiver instead of separates when the technologies change.

My speakers are all B&W (804's for the front, 805's for the surround, and the HTM-1 for the center).

Is the Arcam everything they say it is? Will the UMC-1 ever be in production?

Just want to get someone's opinion.
:neener:


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
What exactly is going wrong with your Sunfire? That was a sizable investment and it well might be worthwhile to repair. Especially to recoup your investment if you want a newer processor/amplifier. Sunfire products sell quite well on Audiogon and fetch good prices.

With speakers as nice as yours, I would recommend either the Arcam or (3) XPA-2 amplifiers, the Parasound Halo A51 or a used Parasound HCA-2205.

The XPA-5 is an excellent value and good for most applications, but it has the same sized power transformer and filter capacitance as the 2 Channel XPA-2. It is the reason the XPA-2 and XPA-5 sell for the same amount. The XPA-2 is a much more powerful amplifier than the XPA-5. Again, if you did not own B&W 800 Series Speakers, I would have no hesitation recommending the XPA-5.

The Arcam has elicited the most praise of any AV Receiver I have ever come across. When reading the measurements from the Home Theater Magazine Review, it produced under 100 watts per channel (all channels driven). All the same, in that same review, the reviewer said the AVR600 produced the greatest amount of bass ever experienced in his system. In the Widescreen Review test of the AVR600 (available as PDF from Arcam), the reviewer said the AVR600 produced the best sound in his system period. Amazing considering WSR's reference system is worth around 400,000 Dollars.

There have been some glitches with the AVR600. However, with the recent firmware upgrade (1.9), all reports are that it is much more stable. All I can say is I would audition it prior to spending that much on a receiver. I am both intrigued and confounded by the AVR600. Fellow Shackster/Moderator Recruit (John) auditioned it and quite liked it. He ended up purchasing the processor version of the AVR600, the AV888 instead and is beyond pleased.

The Parasound amplifiers I recommended are very powerful and offer huge transformers and amounts of capacitance. In fact, the A51 has over twice as large a power transformer as the XPA-5 and almost 3 times the capacitance as the XPA-5. Bottom line, much more current reserves than the XPA-5.
The 2205 is an earlier model which is ridiculously close in design and specs to the A51. It would have to be purchased used, but offers 99% of the current of the A51 for 1/3 the price.

Processor wise, I would go with a refurbished Onkyo PR-SC886. Truly has all the features you need in a processor including THX Ultra2 Plus Certification and HDMI 1.3 for around a grand.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Adamant22

Thanks JJ,

For my Sunfire, it's losing the ability to process digital signals.
I have a fairly decent collection of DVD-Audio DVD's and a few months ago, it quit recognizing the digital input (no sound). I thought it might be my DVD player (Pioneer Elite) so I bought another one (Yamaha).

The Yamaha will play through the digital output, but it's not 5.1 (just normal stereo).

The 8-Channel input works for both, but it doesn't sound as good.

Now I notice it's not playing 5.1 on anything (Movie DVD's, Satellite Dish, etc...)

I am investigating getting it repaired, but I still might want to upgrade.
This receiver came out right before HDMI and I really want the latest technology on that.


This brings me back to my dilemma.
I may be able to get a good deal on an AVR600, but will I be in the same boat 3 years from now?
The amp on the Sunfire is still good. Maybe I should go with separates?

I appreciate all of your ideas and will start researching.
Thanks!


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## dyohn

FWIW, the company reps on the Emotiva forum say that their new processor the UMC-1, which has been delayed by many of the same issues facing other vendors trying to use the new Cirrus Logic processors, is in final testing and approval stages (certification approvals by Dolby and DTS) and should be on the street before the end of the year.

Sunfire has declared bankruptcy again and is in the process of being sold, from what I understand. Even though the company is having problems, you might check with your local authorized dealer and see if there is a service center in your area.


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## dyohn

The latest news from Emotiva is their new processor has finally been approved and released for manufacturing with the first production units shipping in mid-November.


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## Jon Liu

That's great to hear for Emotiva fans! It seems like a fantastic solution for those who want to get into the world of separates, but don't want to break the bank doing so!


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
While I look forward to the UMC-1, I cannot help but think the Onkyo offers much more. While some are not fans of THX, I actually really like some of their processing modes. Neural THX, THX Music and THX Ultra2 Cinema especially When coupled with the easy ability of B-Stock PR-SC886 and DTC-9.9's, it is difficult for me not to advocate the Onkyo.

Where Emotiva truly shines is amplifiers. They offer absurd sound for the pound. I am especially a big fan of their XPA-2.
Cheers,
JJ


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## daniel

"Best bang for the buck. "
That usually how owner talk about Emotiva. 
But if money is not an issue, what about quality only.
Are they just good amps with great pricing or are they really great?
( I know the middle man is out and that count for something)
How would they compare with higher priced processor or amp?

Terry, 
you said it could be compared to amp such as Classe CA-200 & CAV-75, Pass Labs X-150. Those are some serious amp. What made you "downgrade" to Emotiva? What happens?
Usually, when someone goes that high, he doesn't want to go to lesser product.

p.s. I don't have good or bad opinion aboutr emotiva. Their product are cheap $$$, their last processor ( which will be available soon) looks promessing, but will it deliver the goods? I certainly hope so.


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## Jon Liu

Daniel, I think it's true with many things, you _can_ spend more to get better quality stuff, but then again, spending more money doesn't always equate to better sound. The Emotiva's certainly are a "great bang for the buck" but it's not a be-all end-all solution for everyone.

I had a Emotiva MPS-2 before I went to my current D-Sonic amp and there certainly was a price gap between the two, but I also did find a performance gap between the two, as well. The MPS-2 was sold for $1800, whereas the M2500-7 amp is sold for $3175 (USD). I did find a noticeable improvement that covered the entire sound frequency spectrum, but I can say that the Emo amp gave a lot of the same performance for nearly half the cost. I think it's also the law of diminishing returns, too.

Maybe for Terry, going to a lesser amp yields more funding available to make sound improvements in one's system elsewhere that will yield more noticeable improvements... I'll let him chime in on that front, though.


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## daniel

Sad but true Jon, spending a lot doesn't mean that the quality will follow.

For Terry, if he decided to cut on the amp side to spend more on the source, I think that it would make sense. I for one would not spent a lot on a simaudio amp for a technic turntable. I would rather have an Oracle Delphi 4 ( which I have:bigsmile with a nad or even the cheaper, whatever it is, used emotiva amp.
( BTW:I use my delphi with simaudio amp. Some people say I'm crazy.)

I'm waiting to here to first comment from owner on the new Emotiva processor. 

There are some interesting things that can happen with the UMC-1:

A used krell s-1000: 2500$, HTS 7.1: 1500. A used Simaudio stargate: 3000. A used classe ssp-300: less that 2000...Brand new Emotiva UMC-1:700!!!!

The Emotiva is that great, and we, I, don't have to spend a lot for a great product,
or (if it's not that great but very good) it will put pressure on the used market and we, I, will be able to buy great used processor for less. Maybe I'm dreaming.

Im not the guy who's looking for the latest technology. So HDMI is not mandatory. also, in less than two years there will be no more morgage to pay for. I will have more money to buy whichever processor. Right now, it has to be less than 3000$, preferably less that 2000. However, like I said previouly, I'm :coocoo:


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## Jon Liu

I'm sadly one of those who likes the latest technology most of the time, so it can get pretty pricey for me...

If you are okay with "last years model" then you'll save A LOT of money in the long run!


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## Jungle Jack

Hello,
As long as there are still B-Stock Onkyo PR-SC885/886's available for under a grand, I find it truly impossible to advocate anything else within 400 Dollars +/-. This includes the forthcoming Emotiva.

The feature set of the Onkyo is truly all encompassing. Denon's forthcoming 2500 Dollar SSP lacks THX Processing, Reon or Realta Video Processing, and much more. The Emotiva looks promising, but still lacks THX processing, and while incorporates Room Correction, does not offer Audyssey's MultEQ XT that the Onkyo offers. In addition, only the Subwoofer Channel has a XLR connection.
I do think Emotiva offers tremendous value on the amplification side of things. The XPA-2 especially.

If I was building a system from the ground up, I would allocate maximum possible towards Speakers.
Nothing comes close to making as much of a difference. Many believe that all amplifiers sound the same when level matched, all CD players sound the same when level matched, all cables sound the same, etc... No one in their right mind however argues that all Speakers sound the same.

I personally do not subscribe to the theory that all amplifiers and source components sound the same.
I could imagine without high resolution Speakers that these differences could be difficult to distinguish.
Cheers,
JJ


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## number 5

The Nagra 4.2 is hard to beat.


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## Goldenbear

dyohn said:


> The latest news from Emotiva is their new processor has finally been approved and released for manufacturing with the first production units shipping in mid-November.


Finally!!!

I've been waiting over a year for this thing to ship!

Actually, now I'm looking at the XMC, but that may be another year... Also, the more I think about it, I'm leaning towards the Onkyo/Integra for Audyssey room correction.

It's good to have choices


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## Josuah

Just thought I'd provide my own opinions with respect to the original question. I've used and/or heard separate amps from Outlaw, Emotiva, Parasound, Wyred 4 Sound, Mark Levinson, Jolida, Spectron, Lexicon, Halcro, Odyssey, NuForce, and possibly some more.

I disagree with the statement class D is necessarily not as good as class A or class A/B. The Emotiva amps are an excellent value, but IMO they aren't the cream of the crop in terms of sound quality. The super expensive ones aren't necessarily cream of the crop either though.

FWIW, I'm currently using a Wyred 4 Sound ST-500 in my reference setup.


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## Cincyborn

eugovector said:


> As I understand it, stored power for highly dynamic sound. Your levels may bounce along just fine, but when there's a big dB increase, you need the stored power.
> 
> Re-reading that, it was a pretty horrible explanation, but I can think of a good analogy right now. How about this...the capacitors are the town water tower. If everyone flushes the toilet at once, you'll need more water than just the water pump can provide.


I understand perfectly your analogy.... however, I would not eat in this town. Sounds like an epidemic if everyone has to flush at the same time. 

Sorry couldn't resist. Actually its a great analogy.


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