# One or Two?



## chris0228 (Feb 25, 2014)

Room size is 10x18, 90% HT use, likely going with larger bookshelf speakers. Really want a quality LFE system for movies. Looking seriously at the SVS stuff. Am I better off with one ported 13" or two non ported 12s? Other options I should consider? Prewired for 7.2 but trying to find out if I should do two subs or one really nice one? Thanks.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

If this is a serious question, two subs is "ALWAYS" better than one.

That being said, you failed to state a budget.

When one asks the question, how much subwoofer equals a full load, they need to state a budget.

I will "ALWAYS" encourage one to go with a two subwoofer system. Our system comprises of two Rythmik FV15HPs, that we don't use at peak 
output.

Assuming you care about quality, can you share a budget? Can you share what your expectations are?

To be open and honest, if I were to make a recommendation, the minimal recommendation would be a pair of PSA XS30s.  You have to state how much you want and how much are you willing to spend to get where you want to go.

To understand, subwoofers are the holy grail of happiness. Unless willing to spend the price, one will be met by sadness.


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## chris0228 (Feb 25, 2014)

Sorry BeeMan, although your prob could have deducted a reasonable budget by the two items I mentioned in the OP. $1500-$2500, yes it's a serious question as with live sound, the quality of speaker and amplification is far more important than sheer number of boxes, and I do care about quality. My expectations are a very stable Low end for mostly HT use. Thanks for your input.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

I disagree with the two subs is "always better than one" the PB13u would run circles around any two 12" subs costing the same if placed correctly. If your looking for a sub that's going to dig deep there are very few subs costing below $1800 that can achieve what the SVS will do for low end output flat down to below 15hz.







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My room is 4500cu ft and my single PB13u fills it with authority


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

> ...as with live sound, the quality of speaker and amplification is far more important than sheer number of boxes,...


Wishing you the best in finding a solution to your question.


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## chris0228 (Feb 25, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> Wishing you the best in finding a solution to your question.


Thanks. What are you trying to say by quoting that sentence? I am trying to gain knowledge and bridge the gap between live audio and theater sound. Does that sentence relate consistently with HT as well?


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## Serenity Now (Mar 28, 2014)

My room was 12x17, so close. I have 2 SVS SB12-NSD subs. I have also heard a PB-12NSD on its own. They are pretty big in person.

I would go for the 2 smaller sealed subs after experiencing the larger ported. The output is not as much, but they go lower, smoother and there is never any port noise or droning. It is a visceral experience to day the least.

Very impact full and satisfying. :bigsmile:

Placing the subs on the front wall yields a pretty substantial pressure wave at the listening position. Pretty fun!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

chris0228 said:


> Room size is 10x18, 90% HT use, likely going with larger bookshelf speakers. Really want a quality LFE system for movies. Looking seriously at the SVS stuff. Am I better off with one ported 13" or two non ported 12s? Other options I should consider? Prewired for 7.2 but trying to find out if I should do two subs or one really nice one? Thanks.


Hi Chris. What is the ceiling hight, and are there any openings to other spaces? I'm admittedly quick to recommend the ultra by SVS. I am a customer, and fanboy! Lol that said, I might also consider two, PSA xv15s. 500watts rms, $799.00 each. Two subs usually will smooth the curve, but in a reasonably small space might make it harder to work out. Also, in a smaller space, sealed subs can potentially go lower, but with your focus being on HT, I would choose ported for the impact. Personally the difference in extension is made up for by impact. In a different price bracket, though, I might think twice. For example, PSA triax. 3 -15" drivers, sealed, 4000watts rms. Oh yeah, $2999.00 (still reasonable) In a 10x18, you might have to screw your furniture down!


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> I disagree with the two subs is "always better than one" the PB13u would run circles around any two 12" subs costing the same if placed correctly. If your looking for a sub that's going to dig deep there are very few subs costing below $1800 that can achieve what the SVS will do for low end output flat down to below 15hz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Often it's not just about SPL or how low the LFE is able to dig.
If you're lucky enough to have the space and the type of room that allows for 1 sub without any erroneous "hot" notes, then yes, 1x PB13u will perform as well as 4x SB13u.

But unfortunately most of us don't have such rooms, and as BeeMan suggested 2x smaller subs will often yield a better result.
2 or more subs will allow most people more flexibility in sub placement, which will make it easier to integrate in to a wider variety of rooms and systems.


Referring back to Beeman's comments, if you think 1x PB13u sounds great in your room, try adding a second PB13u. It will knock your socks off even quicker and further.


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

chris0228 said:


> Thanks. What are you trying to say by quoting that sentence? I am trying to gain knowledge and bridge the gap between live audio and theater sound. Does that sentence relate consistently with HT as well?


If you're thinking SVS, why don't you take advantage of the 45 day risk free trial. I would try the following combinations

1x PB13u
1x SB13u
2x PB2000
2x SB2000

For your room size, budget and requirements, I suspect you will end up with 2x SB2000

The main difference between Live audio and home audio is mostly to do with limitations and restrictions regarding room size and speaker placement both of which can have a profound effect on the performance of the system.
Additionally, IMO, SQ is more critical in home audio as the situation is more intimate. A lot like a rock concert vs a small Jazz club.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Just saw your other thread. 10' ceilings, closed theater etc. cylinder subs? Yep! All day long. Maybe a pair of PC-12 pluses. $2279.00. That would easily fill 1800cuft also. I have a pair, and they do it all. Compromises? Maybe, but they work for me. Very musical, and very authoritative on movies. 
Will


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## JimShaw (Apr 30, 2012)

My room is 12x17 and I love my hidden SVS PB13-Ultra

The pictures hanging on the wall had to be Velcrosed to stop them from moving because the deep bass of the SVS


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

First thing I would like to say is, DO NOT consider the small inexpensive sealed subs for your theater, this is a bad idea for movies. It take four SB2000's to approach the 20 Hz output of 1 PB2000.....bad move for your situation.

If you want to go with SVS, I think dual PB2000's would be similar in output to the PB13 Ultra, but have a 99% chance to have a smoother response throughout your room. One in the front corner and one in the opposite rear corner is often a good starting point for placement. If you want a bit more, you can start with dual PB12 plus, or upgrade within one year if you feel the desire to do so.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

littlejohn74 said:


> ....if you think 1x PB13u sounds great in your room, try adding a second PB13u. It will knock your socks off even quicker and further.


Bass-wise, a room doesn't come alive until the second subwoofer is added into the acoustics of the room.

In my opinion, what's to argue. If someone wants to believe a single, well dialed in subwoofer will compare to the acoustical response of two well dialed in subwoofers, I'm happy for them.

Bass-wise, if someone wants to miss out on the experience of their room coming alive; free choice. Bass-wise, if someone wants to experience their room coming alive, then they should give it a try before telling someone a single subwoofer is just as good and there's no truth to the comment, their room will come alive.

Subwoofers are not a one size fits all commodity and to say one can successfully get peak performance out of a single subwoofer system, is basically making the claim that one size will fit all acoustical conditions.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

BeeMan, it's great that you love your two subs and no one will disagree that two subs will smooth out the response but if those two subs are smaller less capable subs your NOT going to get the deep 15hz and lower feel in your chest bass that a single more capable sub will give you.. In many cases a single higher quality sub placed well WILL give much better results.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

While I agree the more well placed subs the better I also think to state that two subs is always better than one is a bit off. I have just one SVS PB12-NSD and for two listening positions it suits us just fine. I say go for quality over quantity because you can always add quantity at a later date if not happy.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> While I agree the more well placed subs the better I also think to state that two subs is always better than one is a bit off. I have just one SVS PB12-NSD and for two listening positions it suits us just fine. I say go for quality over quantity because you can always add quantity at a later date if not happy.


+1
Even if you have 8 subs in a room that only extend to 30hz, you'll gain nothing but db, and maybe a flatter curve. Sometimes more is just more...His room isn't that big, and one great sub will dig deeper, and give a better overall result, than however many less capable ones. The good thing is that his budget should allow for some real quality bass!


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

JBrax said:


> While I agree the more well placed subs the better I also think to state that two subs is always better than one is a bit off. I have just one SVS PB12-NSD and for two listening positions it suits us just fine


Have you ever compared a one subwoofer system to a two subwoofer system in the same room?

Have you downloaded and got a freeware copy of REW up and running so you can measure the acoustics of your room?

As to eight subs, absolutely you'll get deeper response with more authority as each subwoofer reinforces the other subwoofer on the low end. I will give that it would be lame buying eight weak subwoofers but it never hurts to step-up a couple two steps to the next better system and be done with all the falderal.

And to address another point, buying only one sub is way off when compared to a two subwoofer system as nobody is suggesting one should buy junk subwoofers so it makes no sense to go there. Once one experiences the openness that a two subwoofer system provides the acoustics in a room, I don't see anybody complaining how they wasted their money but I do read about single subwoofer owners saying they don't need a second subwoofer and put up quite the resistance to acquiring better bass sound quality as if doing so is going beat out the rules of physics.

Here's the OP's question that I responded to: "...trying to find out if I should do two subs or one really nice one?

My simple reply, buy two really nice subwoofers, get an AVR with XT32/SubEQ HT with an amplifier section that can handle a 4ohm load on all channels and be happy. If looking to SVS, buy a pair of SVS PC12-Plus. They will rock your world and you'll be a happy camper. If you want more, go with a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs and you will be able to die a happy, fulfilled gentleman.

A suggestion, have SVS send you a pair of PC12-Plus' so you can demo them and go from there. In my opinion, there's something special about the PC12-Plus design.


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

Unless you've done your homework like the sound engineers at Harman, then it's pretty difficult to refute the research they've done.
There are quite a few interesting articles at the following link
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Pages/WhitePapers.aspx

But for those that are time poor.... the conclusion is, if you're after deep, flat, clean loud bass, then the more the merrier (In theory).
In practice?
"One subwoofer at each wall midpoint is the best in terms of 
Std, Max-ave and Max-min but does not support low 
frequencies particularly well. Two subwoofers, at opposing 
wall midpoints, performs very nearly as well as four at the 
midpoints and gives a much better LF factor. One 
subwoofer in each corner also has good low frequency 
support, but does not perform quite as well as one 
subwoofer at each wall midpoint, in terms of Std, Max-ave 
and Max-min. If cost and aesthetics are considered, 
subwoofers at 2 wall midpoints is preferred. "


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

Bear123 said:


> First thing I would like to say is, DO NOT consider the small inexpensive sealed subs for your theater, this is a bad idea for movies. It take four SB2000's to approach the 20 Hz output of 1 PB2000.....bad move for your situation.


This may be true if the subs were going into a large open room or if it were an outdoor concert. But in a small to medium room, 2x SB2000s will comfortably play flat and deep at levels where the majority of people's ears will cry uncle way before subs break a sweat. 
In small to med rooms (like that of the OP), 2x SB2000s will dig deeper, flatter, cleaner and louder than one PB2000.


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> +1
> Even if you have 8 subs in a room that only extend to 30hz, you'll gain nothing but db.......


With all due respect. Whilst your comment may hold true if the 8 subs were being used in an open field. But in the context of home theatre or home audio, this comment is so NOT true.
Unless the sub you speak of has a LPF @ 30Hz (which would be highly unlikely), your comment completely disregards the effects of room gain. Particularly in smaller rooms, as with that of the OP.


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> Subwoofers are not a one size fits all commodity and to say one can successfully get peak performance out of a single subwoofer system, is basically making the claim that one size will fit all acoustical conditions.


Well, lets not disregard the possibility of a person going to great lengths to achieve a near anechoic chamber HT room. (however unlikely this may be).
In this instance, I would concede that it is possible 1 awesome sub may perform better than 2x slightly lesser subs.


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## Serenity Now (Mar 28, 2014)

littlejohn74 said:


> This may be true if the subs were going into a large open room or if it were an outdoor concert. But in a small to medium room, 2x SB2000s will comfortably play flat and deep at levels where the majority of people's ears will cry uncle way before subs break a sweat.
> In small to med rooms (like that of the OP), 2x SB2000s will dig deeper, flatter, cleaner and louder than one PB2000.


This has been my experience. I often wonder why anyone would choose to go bigger or ported after hearing 2 of these things together -- 2 of the SVS SB2000. More than enough output for a room this size and extremely clean. Cleaner than a ported to my ears by far. Don't get me wrong, an ultra would be awesome, but you'd only use 25% of its output likely before you cried uncle. :bigsmile:

Call SVS or whoever for advice. Great service.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

littlejohn74 said:


> But in the context of home theatre or home audio, this comment is so NOT true.
> Unless the sub you speak of has a LPF @ 30Hz (which would be highly unlikely), your comment completely disregards the effects of room gain. Particularly in smaller rooms, as with that of the OP.


Room gain will not boost frequency's below what the sub or subs are capable of so if you have two lesser subs that only go as deep as 20Hz adding more will not go any deeper just louder at the subs capable frequency range.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

littlejohn74 said:


> In this instance, I would concede that it is possible 1 awesome sub may perform better than 2x slightly lesser subs.


In my opinion, the only way that's going happen, the person buying the single awesome sub got awesomely lucky.

You'll notice, regarding SVS products, my recommendation was to purchase a pair of SVS PC12-Plus subwoofers. If one is place nearfield and the other on the opposite side of the room, it has been shown that for tactile sensation, the pair of PC12-plus' will out perform the Ultra.

The point, I'm not posting about weak, underperforming subwoofers but instead, I'm commenting on and recommending, in their class, top of the food chain subwoofers with the limitation being the available budget.

In my opinion, it all depends on the number of Benjamins one is willing to throw at this problem and how serious they are in getting killer home theater based bass.

Last night's movie, "Elysium." Lots of tactile rumble and roll. My point, I want "Everybody" to experience what we have as I can't see encouraging anything less.


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> In my opinion, the only way that's going happen, the person buying the single awesome sub got awesomely lucky.
> 
> You'll notice, regarding SVS products, my recommendation was to purchase a pair of SVS PC12-Plus subwoofers. If one is place nearfield and the other on the opposite side of the room, it has been shown that for tactile sensation, the pair of PC12-plus' will out perform the Ultra.
> 
> ...


Hahaha... yes... I was agreeing with you. I was merely trying to state there are no absolutes. There are audio extremists out there who would go to the Nth degree with room treatments. Admittedly, they are few and far between.
Getting back on track, I think the OP was considering 1x PB12-Plus vs 2x SB2000 (I recall a budget of about $1500ish) So I don't think 2x PC12-Plus is an option.


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

tonyvdb said:


> Room gain will not boost frequency's below what the sub or subs are capable of so if you have two lesser subs that only go as deep as 20Hz adding more will not go any deeper just louder at the subs capable frequency range.


If by "only go as deep as 20Hz" meaning this is the 0db point ie no response, then I agree (but that would be like a LPF effect). But in the context of this thread. The OP was talking about 1x ported vs 2x sealed. (SVS). So this is not the case.
Also ported subs don't tend to gain as much extension from room gain as they are usually tuned with a fairly steep 24db slope.
Sealed subs tend to have a naturally less aggressive roll off slope of around 12db, which will allow an extension in frequency response in smaller rooms (as with the OP's room).
A sub that has a claimed 19Hz-200Hz 2-meter ground plane response (quasi-anechoic) may end up extending down into the low teens in a small room. Then adding a second sub will generally help in reducing room modes and thus make integration a little easier.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

littlejohn74 said:


> There are audio extremists out there who would go to the Nth degree with room treatments. Admittedly, they are few and far between.


And for good reason. In my opinion, based on extensive online searching, unless a dedicated home theater, there's nothing inexpensive or good looking about a living room full of "bass" treatments.



> Getting back on track, I think the OP was considering 1x PB12-Plus vs 2x SB2000 (I recall a budget of about $1500ish) So I don't think 2x PC12-Plus is an option.


As we both know, with subwoofers, budgets are more of a hopeful starting point than a realistic landing point.  We started our sojourn with a $600.00 USD to $900.00 USD budget and expected to buy "one" subwoofer. I ended up spending $2,600.00 and purchased two subwoofers and an a XT32 equipped AVR with SubEQ HT.

The point, in the case of the OP, how much of a grin factor does he want in his room? Dose he just want a little taste of what he can have, but can't have because he stuck by his budget or does he want the "Full Monte" and is willing to spend to get there. In the case of subwoofers, money can buy happiness. WAF aside, the more one spends on their subwoofer system, the bigger the grin.

Openly and with pride I comment, "I'm not the voice of reason." and "I'm a subwoofer enabler." In doing this, folks will understand that I'm going openly encourage more than less. The OP asked about two subs or one, and I'm all for two subs and for his room, my recommendation is that of another, A pair of SVS PC12-Plus'. If their budget won't allow for two PC12-Plus', then, my recommendation would be to buy one now, save the left over cash, add to it and as soon as possible, buy the second PC12-Plus.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

littlejohn74 said:


> With all due respect. Whilst your comment may hold true if the 8 subs were being used in an open field. But in the context of home theatre or home audio, this comment is so NOT true.
> Unless the sub you speak of has a LPF @ 30Hz (which would be highly unlikely), your comment completely disregards the effects of room gain. Particularly in smaller rooms, as with that of the OP.





tonyvdb said:


> Room gain will not boost frequency's below what the sub or subs are capable of so if you have two lesser subs that only go as deep as 20Hz adding more will not go any deeper just louder at the subs capable frequency range.


Tony basically summed up what I was trying to say. I am well aware of room gain, and you can expect 6db of output gain, per boundary(modes at the LP not withstanding). In the case of how this relates to extension, it may be possible for a sealed sub,(with a less steep rolloff) to extend deeper, but would be at a substantially less db level. (in the price range mentioned) As far as 30hz LPF, I chose an arbitrary number just to illustrate my point, as in, the farther you go down in freq., the easier it is to split hairs about effective treatment. BTW, you would be surprised to know how many subs have LPF's in the 20s. The point is like tony said, the frequencies have to be there to be reinforced, and as the sub rolls off, the output will follow accordingly. Does that make more sense? The only reason I even started in with "8 subs", was "Bear" I think, said (paraphrase) "don't buy cheap subs". BTW, did this thread go off the tracks or what?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

littlejohn74 said:


> If by "only go as deep as 20Hz" meaning this is the 0db point ie no response, then I agree (but that would be like a LPF effect). But in the context of this thread. The OP was talking about 1x ported vs 2x sealed. (SVS). So this is not the case.
> Also ported subs don't tend to gain as much extension from room gain as they are usually tuned with a fairly steep 24db slope.
> Sealed subs tend to have a naturally less aggressive roll off slope of around 12db, which will allow an extension in frequency response in smaller rooms (as with the OP's room).
> A sub that has a claimed 19Hz-200Hz 2-meter ground plane response (quasi-anechoic) may end up extending down into the low teens in a small room. Then adding a second sub will generally help in reducing room modes and thus make integration a little easier.


"A sub that has a claimed 19Hz-200Hz 2-meter ground plane response (quasi-anechoic) may end up extending down into the low teens in a small room". This is true, but at what useful output level? It takes a lot more power, and excursion to justice in the mid- to low teens than the 19hz its rated at. Id say that it's rated that high(compared to say12hz) because of the limitation in power, and probably more so, excursion capability. Luckily he has a small room, and he'll likely have a good result no matter what he puts in.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

I spend a great deal of time and money (over a thousand USD and a more than a year) chasing the fleas on this dog and empirically found out, this is not true. I was able to takes subwoofers, spec'd for 28Hz and with a set of three, w/replacement drivers and radiators w/fiber fill stuffing, push the subs down to an empirically measured 18Hz. I could have gone lower but Anti-Mode 8033S II limited the depth of extension and I didn't know it was doing this. When I figured it out, I took the Anti-Mode 8033S II out of the sonic stream, added a XT32 equipped AVR w/SubEQ HT and all the restrictions and problems were immediately eliminated.

Agreeing with willis7469, the one flaw in my effort, no matter how much I jumped up and down, I could not change the output of the amplifiers and they became the downfall as the sub's output was limited by the amplifiers the subwoofers came with. My solution, hit the hip, max out the credit card and get two top dog subwoofers and now we're paying the credit card off, one month at a time.

Why did I do all the above? To learn what's what with the truth of the matter. Now? Now we watch/listen in living room home theater nirvana. What a way to suffer the indignities of life.

...


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## chris0228 (Feb 25, 2014)

Thanks guys. Lots of very great information all around. As to the grin factor, I'd certainly like to have this. While I have a few more months to decide, I certainly like the idea of having 2 PB-12 Plus subs sitting the the room. The idea posed to buy one at first with the plan of adding a second later is likely the route I will take. For a minute I thought about two SB-12nsd subs as the price is great....but I don't think those will yield the WOW factor I am after. Thanks again.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

I think your smart not to jump on a "good deal", in the interest of saving. While they are a bargain, nothing stings worse than buyers remorse! Especially if you've killed your budget. HT is for most of us a long term investment program. It does suck, but slow and steady wins the race. ...who am I kidding? that still sux. 
Good luck! We'll still be here "debating" what you should do.
will


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## Mike0206 (Jul 14, 2013)

Have you thought of DIY? You could build two nasty subs for the price of one commercial ID sub. I know the idea of no warranty(DIY) or hardly any warranty really, as opposed to a 5 year warranty(SVS,PSA) as well as the learning curve in matching amp to driver properly can be a little daunting but you do get more bang for your buck. Having said that I'd be proud to own any SVS or PSA sub let alone two. I was contemplating that myself but I decided on DIY. The pull to DIY was just too strong after my small dual 10" build. Happy hunting!


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## Serenity Now (Mar 28, 2014)

chris0228 said:


> Thanks guys. Lots of very great information all around. As to the grin factor, I'd certainly like to have this. While I have a few more months to decide, I certainly like the idea of having 2 PB-12 Plus subs sitting the the room. The idea posed to buy one at first with the plan of adding a second later is likely the route I will take. For a minute I thought about two SB-12nsd subs as the price is great....but I don't think those will yield the WOW factor I am after. Thanks again.



You will be more than happy with the outcome. I have no idea how anyone wouldn't in a room your size with that much power. PB12s will be ridiculous! 

My bro's single PB12-NSD rattles doors to the point of being distracting in his 25x16 room.

I know where the guys that are suggesting go bigger are coming from, but unless you are willing to start getting serious about measuring and treating- or win a contest, 2 of either of the subs you are considering will be more than enough to get you grinning.

When people are over with the sb12s I get startled looks..... :T They open cabinets in my basement. No joke.


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

littlejohn74 said:


> This may be true if the subs were going into a large open room or if it were an outdoor concert. But in a small to medium room, 2x SB2000s will comfortably play flat and deep at levels where the majority of people's ears will cry uncle way before subs break a sweat.
> In small to med rooms (like that of the OP), 2x SB2000s will dig deeper, flatter, cleaner and louder than one PB2000.


I believe 16 Hz and up is where you get the best effects for home theater. The PB2000's will have 3-4 times the output cabability down low for movies than the SB2000. The ported subs benefit from room gain down to port tune just as much, so the massive output benefit is maintained in room.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> HT is for most of us a long term investment program. It does suck, but slow and steady wins the race. ...who am I kidding? that still sux.


What are you posting about? We got where we're at.........in under thirty years.  But once you get where you want to go, you never want to leave.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> What are you posting about? We got where we're at.........in under thirty years. But once you get where you want to go, you never want to leave.


What I was saying is it's sometimes hard to wait, and jumping on a good deal can sometimes be unsatisfying. Of course you never want to go back, but I don't think he's there yet. Just trying to encourage him to keep looking forward. 
Will


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## Serenity Now (Mar 28, 2014)

I gotta say its nice to have a debate like this without anyone losing it. Yeah HTS!

I also have to say it is likely if the OP buys a single PB12-NSD, he is likely to never go the 2 sub route later. His room is only 1800cu.ft. after all. Tiny for these brutes. Let's face it, even 1 will be crazy with the door closed.

All of us that have experienced 2 subs vs 1 can say readily and assuredly, there is nothing else quite like it.

I was exactly in this dilemma a year ago, I read and started a thread just like this... 

Came full circle I guess. 

P.S. I made my decision after hearing a single PB12 to buy 2 SB12 instead. The owner of the single PB12 wants another one after hearing what 2 capable subs, well placed, can do. He will have the last laugh when he adds one. . There is no port "rumble" sound with a sealed unit. Just clean waves blasting and stopping just as fast. More dynamic sounding than a ported in my opinion. Faster decay for sure.


Fun experiment:
Take a empty water bottle and squeeze it slightly. Then put the lid on and repeat. Which one springs back to "normal" state faster and with more grunt. Now think of this many times a second. It's just a completely different sound. I'll never go back to ported. :T


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> What I was saying is it's sometimes hard to wait, and jumping on a good deal can sometimes be unsatisfying. Of course you never want to go back, but I don't think he's there yet. Just trying to encourage him to keep looking forward.
> Will


Sorry, I was teasing on your comment about system building takes time.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> Sorry, I was teasing on your comment about system building takes time.


Yeah, I was rushed and didn't let that soak in first. Good one!


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Serenity Now said:


> I gotta say its nice to have a debate like this without anyone losing it. Yeah HTS! I also have to say it is likely if the OP buys a single PB12-NSD, he is likely to never go the 2 sub route later. His room is only 1800cu.ft. after all. Tiny for these brutes. Let's face it, even 1 will be crazy with the door closed. All of us that have experienced 2 subs vs 1 can say readily and assuredly, there is nothing else quite like it. I was exactly in this dilemma a year ago, I read and started a thread just like this... Came full circle I guess.  P.S. I made my decision after hearing a single PB12 to buy 2 SB12 instead. The owner of the single PB12 wants another one after hearing what 2 capable subs, well placed, can do. He will have the last laugh when he adds one. . There is no port "rumble" sound with a sealed unit. Just clean waves blasting and stopping just as fast. More dynamic sounding than a ported in my opinion. Faster decay for sure. Fun experiment: Take a empty water bottle and squeeze it slightly. Then put the lid on and repeat. Which one springs back to "normal" state faster and with more grunt. Now think of this many times a second. It's just a completely different sound. I'll never go back to ported. :T


Lol. Agreed, it is fun to see all the perspectives at play here, and engage with others about them.


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> Tony basically summed up what I was trying to say. I am well aware of room gain, and you can expect 6db of output gain, per boundary(modes at the LP not withstanding). In the case of how this relates to extension, it may be possible for a sealed sub,(with a less steep rolloff) to extend deeper, but would be at a substantially less db level. (in the price range mentioned) As far as 30hz LPF, I chose an arbitrary number just to illustrate my point, as in, the farther you go down in freq., the easier it is to split hairs about effective treatment. BTW, you would be surprised to know how many subs have LPF's in the 20s. The point is like tony said, the frequencies have to be there to be reinforced, and as the sub rolls off, the output will follow accordingly. Does that make more sense? The only reason I even started in with "8 subs", was "Bear" I think, said (paraphrase) "don't buy cheap subs". BTW, did this thread go off the tracks or what?


Yes, the frequencies have to be present for there to be any effect from from room gain. ie 10x zero is still zero  hence why I threw in the LPF caveat. Which in essence, from a roll off perspective is the behaviour one would expect from ported designs.
Yes, many subs do employ LPF to protect the amp and the driver from clipping (in my opinion, this is a "poor" mans workaround so they don't have to employ proper peak limiters), but this is yet another reason to have multiple subs vs one, as this will give more headroom.

A thread on an internet forum getting off topic? no way.. impossible.. who would have thought... hahahaha

My lame attempt to get it back on topic..
@OP. Whether on topic or off, ported or sealed, one, two or more subs. The single point that is unanimous amongst all the bass-heads is.....

DON'T BUY CHEAP SUBS!!!!

Of course, "cheap" will mean different things to different people. Personally I don't think you need to spend BIG dollars on subs. Like buying Velodyne, REL etc etc. Whilst the big names in bass will perform very well, it is clear that the point of diminishing returns kicks in much lower, and many of the ID vendors perform admirably if not better than many of the traditional bass houses. 
However, it is also possible to spend too little and end up with subs that are not able to "keep up" with the rest of your system, and therefore end up with buyers remorse.

One thing that no one has asked is what the rest of your system is like. Whether you're planning an upgrade in the near future or have you just been through an upgrade.
I feel that these are important considerations, because no matter how much you spend on your subs, if your other speakers are fairly mediocre, your system will still sound mediocre (albeit with really tight deep bass)
Your HT system is just that a "SYSTEM", a group of components working together towards a common goal. Every thing needs to be balanced to achieve the best sound and hence ultimate movie experience


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

littlejohn74 said:


> Yes, the frequencies have to be present for there to be any effect from from room gain. ie 10x zero is still zero  hence why I threw in the LPF caveat. Which in essence, from a roll off perspective is the behaviour one would expect from ported designs. Yes, many subs do employ LPF to protect the amp and the driver from clipping (in my opinion, this is a "poor" mans workaround so they don't have to employ proper peak limiters), but this is yet another reason to have multiple subs vs one, as this will give more headroom. A thread on an internet forum getting off topic? no way.. impossible.. who would have thought... hahahaha My lame attempt to get it back on topic.. @OP. Whether on topic or off, ported or sealed, one, two or more subs. The single point that is unanimous amongst all the bass-heads is..... DON'T BUY CHEAP SUBS!!!! Of course, "cheap" will mean different things to different people. Personally I don't think you need to spend BIG dollars on subs. Like buying Velodyne, REL etc etc. Whilst the big names in bass will perform very well, it is clear that the point of diminishing returns kicks in much lower, and many of the ID vendors perform admirably if not better than many of the traditional bass houses. However, it is also possible to spend too little and end up with subs that are not able to "keep up" with the rest of your system, and therefore end up with buyers remorse. One thing that no one has asked is what the rest of your system is like. Whether you're planning an upgrade in the near future or have you just been through an upgrade. I feel that these are important considerations, because no matter how much you spend on your subs, if your other speakers are fairly mediocre, your system will still sound mediocre (albeit with really tight deep bass) Your HT system is just that a "SYSTEM", a group of components working together towards a common goal. Every thing needs to be balanced to achieve the best sound and hence ultimate movie experience


Haha! Way to grab the wheel! I agree with diminishing returns on some big name stuff. I know they have many reasons for higher prices, and I'm not saying they don't perform, or aren't of value. (Some are, some aren't.) I'm just glad that i was made aware of ID companies. That's where my money's at. Or DIY, I have both. 
Another good point. The rest of his system! Man, is it easy to get wrapped up and out in the weeds, and forget about the topic at hand. I guess that's what happens when people really love something. 
...on the road again. (Willy Nelson voice)


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## chris0228 (Feb 25, 2014)

I am either going with the Aperion Versus or SVS Ultra system. I currently have Paradigm monitors that are about 10 years old. Denon X4000, Oppo BDP-103, and some other odds and ends. With the size of room and limitations on screen size with a 10 foot wide front wall, a nicer bookshelf system is what aesthetically fits my eye. And the bosses too for that matter.  I too am extremely happy to have found ID companies. May try the DIY thing down the road a bit.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

chris0228 said:


> I am either going with the Aperion Versus or SVS Ultra system. I currently have Paradigm monitors that are about 10 years old. Denon X4000, Oppo BDP-103, and some other odds and ends. With the size of room and limitations on screen size with a 10 foot wide front wall, a nicer bookshelf system is what aesthetically fits my eye. And the bosses too for that matter.  I too am extremely happy to have found ID companies. May try the DIY thing down the road a bit.


Sounds like a really good start. I've always wanted some paradigms. Got really close while doin a 2nd room in my house. Yes you need to keep the boss happy too! Lol
Here's a little more chum in the water... Ever looked at axiom? Hahahahah!!!!


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

littlejohn74 said:


> Your HT system is just that a "SYSTEM", a group of components working together towards a common goal.


Which is to conspiratorially take every single last spare dollar you have in your pocket so manufactures can find work arounds to take everything else they failed to get during the first ten iterations..........

...:spend:

.........and make it look like it was our idea.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> Which is to conspiratorially take every single last spare dollar you have in your pocket so manufactures can find work arounds to take everything else they failed to get during the first ten iterations.......... ...:spend: .........and make it look like it was our idea.


Yep! That's why all them smart fellers get them big bucks! ...and mine.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Yep! That's why all them smart fellers get them big bucks! ...and mine.


...:T

This time, we went the "Full Monte" and married a flagship AVR up with a pair of flagship subwoofers and for the effort, Denon threw a flagship universal blu-ray player into the deal for no charge. Paying monthly onto the CC, we should have this splurge paid for in the next ten months. When the 60" goes out, I see an 80" screen in our future.

Until marketing comes out with something better than Heaven, we're golden.

...:bigsmile:

Now? All I can do is encourage others to do the same......for I am a subwoofer enabler. 

...

(i would make a terrible addition counselor)


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Yes. Yes, you are an enabler! Btw, (off topic) I just read a very glowing review of your AVR.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Yes. Yes, you are an enabler! Btw, (off topic) I just read a very glowing review of your AVR.


Was it the review by HTS's Sonnie or another forum and if so, please PM me with a link.

As to enabling, my goal is to make people feel happy they spent all their money.

...:dumbcrazy:


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Pm sent.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> Pm sent.


Thanks!


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## littlejohn74 (Feb 11, 2014)

BeeMan458 said:


> Which is to conspiratorially take every single last spare dollar you have in your pocket so manufactures can find work arounds to take everything else they failed to get during the first ten iterations..........
> 
> ...:spend:
> 
> .........and make it look like it was our idea.


Hahahahah.. never were truer words spoken..


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

littlejohn74 said:


> Hahahahah.. never were truer words spoken..



...


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## Mike0206 (Jul 14, 2013)

I didn't even know conspiratorially was a word......lol


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

I took a chance and it made it through the spell checker.

......:bigsmile:


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## TheLaw612 (Jan 17, 2012)

Just throwing my 2 cents in here... I recently switched from a single sub setup to dual subs and was blown away. The bass really fills the room and seems to come from everywhere. Before, I could slightly locate where the bass was coming from. From now on, I will always recommend duals.


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## BeeMan458 (Nov 25, 2012)

TheLaw612 said:


> The bass really fills the room and seems to come from everywhere.


I like to characterize what you experienced as "the room coming alive."


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## Bear123 (Dec 31, 2013)

I sort of have dual subs, although I don't think my setup fully qualifies. I hope to upgrade my little Polk to improve the overall experience.


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## hyghwayman (Jan 15, 2008)

one sb13-ultra fills my open living room and the rest of the house real nice :T someday i hope to add another to bring my house alive but until then i'm a happy camper lddude:


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