# Running 2 jl12w3v3-2 / would 2 dayton ultimax 12" better? Opionins , suggestions ,subwoofer education welcome



## proverbs (Apr 7, 2013)

Hey , 

I am running a 12w7 with a crown xls2000 in front center of the room . 

My question is about my 2 Jl 12w3v3-2s in separate 2cuft sealed boxes ran by a crown xks1500 balanced Minidsp I have about half way up room from the 12w7 facing I at about 45 degree angle . I keep hearing that I would be better off with home audio subwoofers like Dayton or Tc . Tc look very expensive , I know , you get what you pay for sometimes . 

Question : would 2 Dayton ultimax 12" subwoofers sound better and get lower then my jl12w3v3-2s in the same sealed boxes 

Or 12" Mk titanic 2s or 4s 

Rrrr ?idk , help . Opinions , suggests , subwoofer education all welcome 

I have to say , I like the idea of rubber surrounds and the ultimax looks long lasting .


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## morca (Aug 26, 2011)

I dont think the Dayton,s will preform beter.
JL are very good subs in low extention


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Not only will the JL's have lower extension, they should provide better overall sound quality. Most Dayton components are targeted at those who want the best bang for the buck, while JL Audio caters to audiophiles instead.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Agreed. The JL drivers are going to be better in every respect. They are amazing. TC would be another good choice, but availability is a question mark. As Jim said, Dayton is good bang for the buck, but I just don't think they're as good. They are less expensive though.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

I'm gonna go against the grain here and disagree... BUT I'm going to suggest you keep the JL's anyway. 

The Dayton's are a lightly modified Eminence LAB12C. The modifications are a dual 2Ω voice coil instead of the single 4Ω, a nomex/fiberglass cone instead of paper, and the taller rubber surround that facilitates the 6mm increase of Xmax... but the moral of that story is that _the Dayton UM12-22 Ultimax is actually manufactured by Eminence._ (Eminence has a long history of fabricating speakers to whatever specs the client wants, provided the client is willing to pay and meets the minimum order requirements) Eminence also has a long history of making really nice drivers for a multitude of applications... so while many Dayton speakers are more "budget friendly', they certainly aren't low quality. 

I recall seeing some JL's up close and personal a few years back that made me think Eminence had manufactured them, but I can't find exactly what it was and I don't remember well enough. 

As for specs, the Daytons are less sensitive (-0.45dB), but have a higher Max power handling (+200W). Those two things amount to a pretty negligible difference in the end.

The Daytons have a lower Frequency Response on the bottom end, and a higher response on the top end. 
(Dayton = 20Hz-1KHz vs JL = 22Hz - 200Hz) The difference in the top end might be measurement technique, or is could be that JL has mass-loaded the cone for a lower Fs, which will affect the driver's transient response. Speaking of Fs, the Dayton is lower by a hair... 26.2Hz vs the JL at 26.72Hz. (That's the difference between a warm autumn day and a cool autumn day for a Tuba player... not a game changer). 

My previous statement is supported by looking at Qts, which is a tricky number (A number derived from the mechanical stiffness of the suspension and the electrical stiffness of the motor) ... but in a roundabout way tells you what kind of application the speaker is good for. Both of these drivers will work well in a 2Ft^3 box, but 2.0 is a little small for the JL (contrary to JL's recommendation based on specs), and a little big for the Dayton. What that means is that the Dayton will have a lower F3 in that system, but not by much... certainly not by enough to care about. 

Here's the kicker: The Dayton has the JL beat by 6mm on Xmax, which is the distance the cone can travel before something starts to deform... cone, spider, voice coil former, etc (as opposed to Xmech, which is where some part makes physical contact, like the voice coil former hitting the rear plate of the motor) Hitting your Xmax is good. Hitting your Xmech is BAD. 

What the higher Xmax means is that the Dayton will displace more air, and therefore produce greater SPL at lower frequencies... but again, not by much. The larger surround of the Dayton is where the larger Xmax is achieved, but at the expense of the surface area of the cone. The JL has a larger moving surface area (though a spec is not immediately available), so it doesn't have to move as far to displace the same volume of air... but by the time all the math pans out, my money is on the Dayton moving more air at the end of the day. Just not by a huge margin. 

So, all that is to say that I think based on specs and who is actually making the drivers, the Dayton is a superior choice, especially when you factor in the price. the Daytons are currently $179.90, vs the JL's which are ~$250. That alone makes the Daytons blow the JL's out of the water.

And in conlcusion, KEEP THE JL's. You already own them, which means you don't have to spend any money... and the money you spend isn't going to produce a significant difference in quality, low frequency extension, or SPL. But if you have the upgrade bug and you're itching for a project, then go for it.


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## theJman (Mar 3, 2012)

Are you certain the UM12 is a modified LAB12C? Other than generic binding posts and the spoke count on the basket (both of which are commodity items that can be had from many different places) the two drivers share no visible similarities. When you compare their individual spec's the differences start to become even more pronounced. For example, the UM12 lists a frequency response of 20-1kHz (which is highly unlikely to be true) while the LAB12C is rated 25-120Hz. The xmax on the former is 19mm, while on the later it's 13mm. The mms on the Dayton is a whopping 270g, but the Eminence is just 136g. That means the UM12 is pushing 100% more mass 50% further. If they do actually share the same base foundation then the modifications would have to be pretty substantial in order to support such large differences.

I know Eminence does a lot of OEM work - for some pretty big names in the industry as well - so anything is possible really, but I'm not sure these two drivers start life from the same DNA.


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## DqMcClain (Sep 16, 2015)

The motor structure is a little different, but the VC diameter is the same... that's usually a limitation set in large part by the basket... which are pretty close to identical. The 12-spoke design isn't particularly unique, but there are too many similarities in the details to ignore...

For example, the mesh venting where the spokes meet the motor housing, and the shape of those vents. Not 100% identical, but well over 90% match. The binding posts are extremely common, but look at the structure they're mounted to... a bunch of concentric circles terracing their way up to the motor housing. 

There are more modifications than I listed, yes... for example, the spider material appears to be different, and possibly even mounted in a different location. The mass of the cone is explained by the difference in material selection. The LAB12C has a kevlar/paper cone which is obviouisly much lighter... that explains the higher bottom end on the frequency response... but the lower Fs on the LAB12C I think is tied to the larger Vas. 

The Vas parameter may also be the key to the disparity between the Frequency Responses. The larger restoring force from the stiffer suspension could, theoretically, improve the upper-end response of the driver. But it could also be differences in measurement, or it could be Dayton being a bit shady about their specs. 

And while there are definitely differences in the outer motor structure, I think most of the differences in specs can be accounted for by swapping out suspension, cone, and coil. I've got some LAB12s here, but no Dayton UM12-22's... I'd really have to see them side-by-side in person to be 100% certain, but I'm still willing to put money on these two speakers being cousins if not siblings. 

Still... Proverbs, I think you're best served by NOT swapping out to the Daytons. My argument above was only in defense of the Daytons as being reasonable quality and worthy of investment. But since the initial investment is already made, there's no real reason to change.


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