# Ascend Tower measurements



## bigbwb (Jan 7, 2009)

Hey guys,
Its been a while since I have been in here. Just got my new Ascend Towers yesterday and decided to recalibrate my Rythmik sub using my BFD. The towers are run full range with the 2100 preamp. With the Yamaha receiver I have them crossed at 60Hz. All graphs smoothed to 1/12.









Measurement with my preamp running both L&R towers and sub









Measurement with Yamaha receiver running both L&R towers with sub









Previous measurement with Ascend Sierras crossed over at 80Hz through the same preamp, only difference other than the speakers is the new acoustic 4" panels behind them. Could this be why I cannot achieve as flat a response with the new Towers?









Suggestions? I did try messing with the variable phase setting on the Sub and could not do any better.
Thanks,
Brandon


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

Not sure what you’re asking here, Brandon. Are the new measurements with or without the BFD? (Compared to the Sierras graph, looks like “without.”) Are the new graphs including any on-board EQ from the front-end electronics? 

Also not sure of the reason to give us a graph with the pre amp, and another with the Yamaha. It’s unclear how the pre-amp even fits into the signal chain. All we really need to see is a graph for whatever configuration you’re going to be using day to day. 

Regards,
Wayne


----------



## bigbwb (Jan 7, 2009)

Sorry Wayne, my fault. All measurments are with the BFD. No other EQing is happening other thean the BFD and the sub.

I posted two different graphs one with the 2100 preamp which is for 2ch music only (Has Home theater bypass) and the other is a measurement showing the sub working through the receiver for movies etc. I use both configurations depending on if Im listening to music or watching movies.

My real question was do you think the acoustic panels behind the towers are creating the differences?

Thanks,



Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> Not sure what you’re asking here, Brandon. Are the new measurements with or without the BFD? (Compared to the Sierras graph, looks like “without.”) Are the new graphs including any on-board EQ from the front-end electronics?
> 
> Also not sure of the reason to give us a graph with the pre amp, and another with the Yamaha. It’s unclear how the pre-amp even fits into the signal chain. All we really need to see is a graph for whatever configuration you’re going to be using day to day.
> 
> ...


----------



## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

> My real question was do you think the acoustic panels behind the towers are creating the differences?


No, all else being equal, any changes brought by the panels would be consistent no matter what the electronics. They certainly can’t account for the drastic changes in low freq response you’re seeing between the Yamaha and pre amp.

Regards,
Wayne


----------



## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

Hi Brandon ,

(i) The 2 pics of the new speakers ( with sub ) , IMO, show a lot of combined LF interference .
- Your older setup ( IMHO ) had much better integration between the sub and the main speakers. 

(ii) The new speakers ( with their greater LF range when compared to the older speakers ) are the immediate suspect ( IME ) . 

(iii) This implies ( of course ) that the PreAmp setup ( & the Receiver setup ) are somehow allowing too much destructive LF overlap .

(iv) It would be worth your while to identify just what range is actually being outputted ( by each individual ) speaker for both the PreAmp or Receiver setups . 
- This necessitates making sweeps of individual speakers .
- Adding another speaker to the previous ( just swept ) , & then sweeping again, will hilight the contribution ( or not ) of the latest addition .
- A methodical approach like this ( vs , just turning on everything for one large group shot ) should help you identify the source of the destructive LF . 

(v) Once you know the most likely ( electronic/acoustic ) source ( of that lumpy LF ) , it'll be easier to suggest remedies .

<> regards , EarlK


----------



## bigbwb (Jan 7, 2009)

EarlK said:


> Hi Brandon ,
> 
> (i) The 2 pics of the new speakers ( with sub ) , IMO, show a lot of combined LF interference .
> - Your older setup ( IMHO ) had much better integration between the sub and the main speakers.
> ...


Earl,
Thank you sir! Ask and you shall receive. I messed around with the phase settings on the Rythmik sub and did some more EQing on the BFD. The results were better this time around for both the Yamaha receiver and 2100 preamp. All measurements with the sub playing are with it EQ'ed.
Graph of Towers through 2100 preamp with and without the sub playing.








Same graph but measured up to 3000hz








Graph of all 2100 preamp measurements:
Colors:
Red - both towers no sub
Yellow - Left tower no sub
Brown - Left tower with sub
Green - right tower no sub
Purple - right tower with sub









Graphs of all Yamaha receiver measurements - using 60hz crossover, Towers set to small, any measurements with sub playing is EQ'ed.
Colors:
Red - Both towers and sub
Yellow - both towers no sub
Brown - left tower no sub
Green - Left tower with sub
Purple - right tower no sub
Blue - right tower with sub










I think this time around, the mains and sub are blending much better. Thoughts?

Brandon


----------



## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

Yes, I agree that your blend is a bit better now .

The above pic is the most telling for me ( & the easiest to read ) .

It shows that your sub is adding ( quite equally across its operating range ) to that speakers LF content . 

( Assuming you're going to continue running your mains that low ) ; 
- To fill in those LF suckouts ( at 37, 70 & 95hz ) you're going to need to resort to boosting those frequencies some ( also assuming, you want to keep the sub located where it is ).

regards <> EarlK


----------



## bigbwb (Jan 7, 2009)

EarlK;425495Yes said:


> Earl,
> I am happier with the blend at the XO point as well. I do want to run the mains full range for several reasons. First, they are a three way speaker with a seperate enclosure for the mid driver & tweeter leaving the 2 bass drivers solely to produce bass without any negative effects on the midrange. Second, the room response actually measured better with them full range rather than a 80hz XO - my only other option with the 2ch 2100 preamp.
> 
> Regarding the suckouts which I assume are room related. The sub had two possible locations, the one its in now had the best repsonse, its away from a corner more in the middle of the room. I was always under the impression its acceptable to lower peaks when EQing the sub but not raise suckouts? Will this tax the subs amp too much and are those suckouts at 37hz, 70hz, and 95hz noticeable enough to EQ them out? side note - I am talking about the yellow plot above since it includes the sub playing. So the suckouts are minimized slightly.
> ...


----------



## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

Brandon,

If you're conservative with the amount of boost applied / your amp will fare better .

Try boosting only 3 db per filter .

Use ( or learn to use ) REWs EQing section . 
- It'll give you a predicted trace for the EQ that you apply ( to those 3 areas ) . 
- You might want to use the Generic EQ settings for the time being to get the hang EQing ( choose a PEQ type filter ) .


<. EarlK


----------



## bigbwb (Jan 7, 2009)

Earl,
I have used the EQ section of REW quite a bit when fine tuning my sub and making the adjustments from REW on the BFD.

I tried your recommendations about boosting the 37hz and 70hz dips by 3db. The results are better and I think I will stop here for now, the results are pretty flat in my mind. One cannot obsess too much Here are the final results with the yellow being the 2100 preamp and green the yamaha.











EarlK said:


> Brandon,
> 
> If you're conservative with the amount of boost applied / your amp will fare better .
> 
> ...


----------



## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

Nice !

Yes, I figured you knew how to EQ ( based on your 2 year old curve ) / / it's just that sometimes I'm mindful of talking to a larger audience
( I played in a band , decades ago :unbelievable: ) .

<> cheers


----------

