# Taming my Room First measurment..



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

Hi Everybody,

I just found this program and decided to see what my room sounds like.. Well here is my first attempt altho I had a hard time getting it to work right I think I got it altho it seems like it is a bit low db wise..

I tried turning up the volume and down the sub but kept getting clippin even thos the tone was low?? Well I finally got a happy medium and here is the result looking for help analysing said graph..

I have also an file attatchment of the file along with the followin graph pic..


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

had to make 2nd post could find add attachment on the edit page???


----------



## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

Your soundcard cal trace looks like there was a huge bass EQ boost active (about 18dB at 80Hz). Disable any tone or EQ controls or sound effects in your soundcard and repeat the cal, the response should be almost completely flat apart from at the very highest and lowest frequencies, like the traces shown in the soundcard calibration help.


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

OK I think I had bass boost on. I turned OFF ALL effects and boosts??
Still looks about the same??


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

Double post


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

ok I* had the Gain up too loud I think, in the Receiver. I turned it all the way down and Now how does it look??


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

The_Nephilim said:


> ok I* had the Gain up too loud I think, in the Receiver. I turned it all the way down and Now how does it look??




Forgot to add the fil and new Graph showing Full range 

How does it look now. was this correct and I think it is NOT too bad for an untreated room perhaps It is Bad??


----------



## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

The soundcard cal is definitely not OK, it looks like it might be from a room measurement. Did you try ticking the box for the soundcard cal to look at it? It is the dashed trace on this plot:









Here is the measurement after clearing the soundcard cal:









You should make a proper soundcard cal.


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

OK I tried recalibrating and when I did it again itlooked better then before more flat but I was NOT able to save the file for some wierd reason??

I will try again tomorrow and hopefully get it saved.. Also when I save it do I load it up before testing the room along with the SPL Meter file ??


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

OK I think I got it now. I will run the test tomorrow. I would do it now but it might be too loud .. ignore the picture


----------



## Barleywater (Dec 11, 2011)

> ..... better then before more flat......


This isn't inspiring confidence. Calibration of soundcard is taking measurement of the soundcard as detailed in REW help: Calibrating the Souncard. When you zoom in on frequency response of soundcard measurement, it should look extremely flat, as in +/- 0.2dB.

Andrew


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

Barleywater said:


> This isn't inspiring confidence. Calibration of soundcard is taking measurement of the soundcard as detailed in REW help: Calibrating the Souncard. When you zoom in on frequency response of soundcard measurement, it should look extremely flat, as in +/- 0.2dB.
> 
> Andrew


Well I read that a few times and followed the directions and I had a Graph that looked like the one after line 3 in the help FAQ..

So I did get it corrected now and it is better then the first reading I took as I calibrated without looping the line in/out.. but now I did exactly as the FAQ Described and will be taking a room measurment shortly hopefully will post a new graph in about 15mins..


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

OK If this is Not correct I give up


----------



## Barleywater (Dec 11, 2011)

Look like reasonable soundcard calibration. Soundcard performance above 10kHz is not great. What are you using for soundcard? If you save soundcard measurement and post mdat of it, I can check to see if any input monitoring is occurring. Plot of souncard cal as pictured does not suggest input monitoring effects, but it is good to rule out.









Based on soundcard calibration and mic/meter calibration, peak at 26Hz may be accurate display result, but noise and distortion are about 1.2%, this is fairly typical:









Impulse response results plotted without normalization suggest signal level is low, so results not making use of available dynamic range of system, and are noisy:









Results are <<0.1% FS (full scale)

You are well on your way to making good measurements, practice makes for more practice.

Regards,

Andrew


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

OK Cool Progress Finally .. I am using an older Soundcard in an Acer Laptop.. it is not even an AC97 sound card.. problly some generic ..

I can try and get a better Laptop with a more recen soundcard.. I can try that and see if I get a better Soundcard measurment..

But from the Graph that was good how does the room look overall?? I am thinking of getting some Acoustic Panels and was wondering if the Graph gives any indication of where I should focus??

Bass traps or Highs?? Thnx for Helping altho I have NO idfea what those Graphs you posted tell me besides the Soundcard one but Hopefully it will become clear someday..

I know I have ALL the Effects Off and any boosters are all off..I will see IF I can post the Mdat..


----------



## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

You can get a USB sound card instead of changing laptops. This one is overkill, but will work:

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Soun...=1343948251&sr=1-1&keywords=sound+blaster+usb

Or, if you have an express card slot, this one (I use it with an older Dell laptop - works fine):

http://www.amazon.com/Creative-SB09...=1343948296&sr=1-7&keywords=sound+blaster+usb


----------



## Barleywater (Dec 11, 2011)

I am afraid that the only graph in that set with good qualities is the soundcard calibration. The frequency response displayed for room measurement has dramatic overall slope, once again consistent with really low signal level. 

Post #15 info on soundcard suggests that it has combo line/mic input jack, these are typically found to be unsatisfactory.

That said, try measurement with higher volume.

Andrew


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

Well It does have a seperat line in and seperate mic input.. It just maybe junk.. I will try a USB soundcard..

I have the Soundcard maxed on volume and If I go any higher on the reciever I get cliping in the REW Program..I have the Sub Lowest setting in the reciever for gain and I may be able to turn it down some more from the sub volume lvl, as it is the Sub that causes the clipping..

EDIT: I will double check the settings on the card..





hjones4841 said:


> You can get a USB sound card instead of changing laptops. This one is overkill, but will work:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Soun...=1343948251&sr=1-1&keywords=sound+blaster+usb
> 
> ...




With those USB SC do they have a Correct Line in or just amic in?? will either of these cards be Fine or just ok??


----------



## Barleywater (Dec 11, 2011)

Is sound in room reasonably loud? No need for it to be painful. 

Open Sound and Audio Device Properties, on Volume tab click Advanced to get speaker volume panel, click on Options,Properties, and click Adjust Properties for Recording. Make sure that under "Show the following volume controls" that Line In, Recording, and Microphone are checked. Click OK to bring up Recording Control panel. Adjust levels here to eliminate signal peaking in REW.

Andrew


----------



## Barleywater (Dec 11, 2011)

Oh, yes everything below 200Hz is roughly 20dB higher. What does measurement look like with sub muted/off?

Andrew


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

Barleywater said:


> Is sound in room reasonably loud? No need for it to be painful.
> 
> Open Sound and Audio Device Properties, on Volume tab click Advanced to get speaker volume panel, click on Options,Properties, and click Adjust Properties for Recording. Make sure that under "Show the following volume controls" that Line In, Recording, and Microphone are checked. Click OK to bring up Recording Control panel. Adjust levels here to eliminate signal peaking in REW.
> 
> Andrew



Well the Sound is NOT real loud only the sub seems loud I have it almost off volume wise on the sub itself..but it is not nearly at all painfull almost not audible..


----------



## Barleywater (Dec 11, 2011)

Measurement is barely 40db above noise floor, this is less than half of dynamic range for CD music. Barely audible isn't loud enough.

Normalized impulse response dB, normalized to full scale. Levels before peak show room noise:









Which makes for not very useable waterfall results:









24kHz shows effects of calibration compensation. Since system really isn't producing much signal up here it is clearly visible as artifact. Based on calibration data, same manner of compensation is also being applied at 20Hz, were combined with some real signal results in slow decay that is also artifact.

Eventually, practice will make perfect.

Regards,

Andrew


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

OK I had a thought I can do a seperate Sub Reading and then a Seperate Mains speaker reading.. IF I set the HZ to 16 - 80hz then for the speaker turn off the sub and set the hz to 80 to 22k..

Would that work or be difficult to process in a graph having two differnt ones??

I say this because the Sub is just overwelming the readings as you had noted and I have it nearly turned down All the way..

So if I do a seperate reading I can adjust the Db seperately.. I also would like to know what db would be good for a graph reading around I figure around 75db??


----------



## Barleywater (Dec 11, 2011)

Yes, some separate readings for main and sub would be good. Left and right speaker separately, and then together is very telling.

Could you describe your setup? Is this primarily a theater system or stereo music with sub?

Role of sub in theater is primarily dramatic effects. In music it primarily reinforces bottom octave, and by reducing demands on mains, improves mains distortion performance. With floor standing speakers, or larger bookshelf/stand speakers a properly integrated sub doesn't stick out, and often is only noticed when it is suddenly muted. This is especially true with acoustic music. The amount of real low bass in modern recordings is all over the place. Lots of small producers in home brew studios without proper referencing, mostly just mixing to taste based on whatever they ended up with for a monitoring system/mix studio results in large variations of bass content.

Andrew


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

OK Cool I'll give that a go!..

Well at first it was built as a HT use but I mostly been using it for Music. I listen mostly to DVD-Audio/SACD Multi-Channel Music disks..

My Sub is a HSU VTF-1 Sub so it is a Dual use sub for HT and music. I just have to flip the switch to change but I mosltly keep it on the lowest setting and that seems to work fine..

I have the following Components:

1. Marantz 4001 Reciever.
2. Samsung Blu ray (7.1 analog inputs used)
3. Denon 1930ci (5.1 analog inputs used)
4. Sony 5.0 Speaker setup
a. Mains SS-MF600H
b. Rears SSB1000
5. HSU-VTF-1 Subwoofer..
6. Soon to get some Acoustic panels for the room..


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

The_Nephilim said:


> OK Cool I'll give that a go!..
> 
> Well at first it was built as a HT use but I mostly been using it for Music. I listen mostly to DVD-Audio/SACD Multi-Channel Music disks..
> 
> ...


OK New Measurment. it seems to go lower after so high. Could this be a room problem or Receiver/Speaker problem??


----------



## Barleywater (Dec 11, 2011)

What is this measurement of? One front, both front, all?

What is Mic/Meter position?

I google MF600H and find pics of speaker and specification. If music listening, money better spent on main speakers, than on treatment.

Would you post full range measurement (10-20kHz, mdat) of one MF600 placed in center of room with mic/meter placed at 3-4ft from speaker at height of tweeter?

Andrew


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

That measurment was of Both Fronts and the Sub from the listening position about 12 feet back....maybe I should consider posting in the speaker sections for some Main Speaker and center channel replacements..

OR what would be a Decent 3.0 L/F/C Speaker replacement with a noticable improvement..for about 600 dollars for all 3 speakers.

OK I am posting in the speaker section for a Better 3.0 Speaker setup... Thank you for the help and I'll be back after I get the speakers no Idea when that will be but hopefully soon..


----------



## Barleywater (Dec 11, 2011)

Let's not jump to conclusion.


If you are trying to learn how to set up sub with main speakers to produce balanced low end using measurements, then you need to do separate measurements to know how the pieces work.

This remains true, regardless of what speakers you use.

Regards,

Andrew


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

Barleywater said:


> Let's not jump to conclusion.
> 
> 
> If you are trying to learn how to set up sub with main speakers to produce balanced low end using measurements, then you need to do separate measurements to know how the pieces work.
> ...


Well I am not jumping to conclusion well maybe jumping ship to a new speaker set hehe!! but really can not afford it. just the thought of getting a new set was cool..

I will do Some sperate measurments. what would you like me to do I will do it..I just need to know what to do..

I guess a left/right measurment seperate and a seperate sub reading?? so what range would I do the Speakers..from 80 to 20k?? Sub from 16hz to 80hz??

I will say I like my sub a little hotter then the mains.. I like the bass.. and besides it only needs to sound good to my ears correct?? I am basically the only one who listens to music there..

So let me ask this, is that last graph I posted a better reading and can we learn Anything from it??


----------



## Barleywater (Dec 11, 2011)

When listening to music, do you run as 2.1 system, as Front Left, Front Right, and sub? If so are you using surround receiver as crossover between sub and mains? Or do you just adjust crossover point on sub, and set level on sub, and possibly phase on sub?

It would be beneficial to see full range measurements from 10-20kHz for speakers, and sub. measurements of speakers run separately, and together would be good. Tendency is to get comb filtering when speaker are measured together, thus it is good to see separate measurements.

It is also good to see measurement of at least one speaker moved to central area of room, or at least 4ft from any walls, and measuring with microphone about 18inches from speaker, at height of tweeter, perhaps a little bit lower. With this sort of close measurement it is often possible to see speaker resonances caused by internal reflections. Bass reflex cabinets of this sort are notoriously under damped, leading to "box" sound. Often porting does more harm than good in speaker when using with sub.

Andrew


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

I listen to MultiChannel music SACD/DVD-A Disks..so it is in 5.1..

Not really sure if I have the Sub Setup correctly but I have it being Crossed over in the receiver at 80hz..Not sure what the phase should be set at but it is at 0..I set the level on the Sub..

I will get some measurments ltr today it is 3am right now.. Hopefully some usefull info will result..


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

OK I will try and do this correctly I will post the pictures of the graphs in the following order:

Right // Left // Subwoofer


hopefully we can gain some knowledge from these Measurments.. 

Thank you for Helping me as well..


----------



## Barleywater (Dec 11, 2011)

Microphone location for above measurements?

What where AVR crossover settings for main speakers?

Signal is further out of noise, but distortion is rather high across entire range, I would like to assume its the mic/meter. For mains, your range only goes down to 60Hz, really need down to 20, and believe it or not all the way down to 10Hz yields clues. Likewise sub measurement goes only up to 120Hz. Much to be learned if taken to 300Hz or higher, yes it may seam strange that I request this, but with crossover at 80Hz, lots of energy still gets past all the way up to 300Hz and well beyond. 

Distortion measurements for sub cut of at 60Hz with range you used. Distortion at roughly 1.0% from 50Hz-60Hz, and on way down to 40Hz climbs to 7% and rapidly gets to 25% below that. You may really like bass, but the bass you are hearing is mostly distortion. More the norm for most unfortunately.

How do natural voices sound?

What is your impression of the sound? Where does it meet your needs, and what do feel is lacking?

I see lots of early reflections, many are likely sound bouncing around inside speakers that escapes back through drivers. Shifting speaker well away from wall and measuring it with the microphone at 3ft will help determine weather this is the case. Also happens when speakers are to close to side walls and bookshelves.

Andrew


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

Microphone is at listening postion about 11' from the speakers mains.. the sub is about 3' from the mic.. I have 80hz on the mains.

Well I just thought that 60hz was a good spot to start from but will try the mains down to 10hzto about 600hz sound ok??

Hmm Well I might have to much volume on the input jack, tomorrow I will try turning it down.. that could be the cause of the distortion but it does NOT sound distorted??

my impression and I am going to go to HiFi House tomorrow to get a GOOD listen to some other speakers just to compare from what I hear at my HT to there setup and see if I can tell the difference.. I may goto Overture since I will be in the same general area tomorrow..

but basically it sounds pretty good I just wish I had a better sub.. With that said One Music piece in paticular is Saint Saens' Organ symphany #3.. the Telarc Disk made in 1993 wich is a pure digital recording.. but the last minute of the piece the sub just chokes and I wish my sub could handle it better..Same for the Saturn 5 Launch cd I have..

Natural voices sound fine like a movie or News Broadcasts..My impression is the sound sounds ok but was just looking to fine tune what I have.. perhaps DR up some of what is lacking in the sony speakers without having to buy a new 5.0 setup..I feel the Sub is the lacking part in my setup..I do listen to alot of Organ music and lows and required especially in Organ Symphany #3..I hope you are familiar with that piece.. I have several copies and like the Telarc one the best so far..

If you are familiar with this piece do you have the Telarc version?? IF so how well does your sub handle the last minute??I would imaging it breezes throught it where mine is struggling

Well it could be the reflections from inside the speaker as they are Hollow.. Would it be beneficial to put some Fiberglass or something in there just to tame the refelctions a bit?? or perhaps some rock wool??

I will measure it from the center of the room and see if it is the reflections from the speaker which I think it is..

I have the speaker about 2' from the front wall and 27" from the side walls on both speakers..


----------



## JohnM (Apr 11, 2006)

The grapsh would be more useful if the SPL axis was reduced to 60dB, quite misleading with a 240dB span. See Please Read: Posting a graph.


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

JohnM said:


> The grapsh would be more useful if the SPL axis was reduced to 60dB, quite misleading with a 240dB span. See Please Read: Posting a graph.



Hmm I thought I had that right guess I did NOT fully understand how to do what the FAQ Stated but I understand now I think How does this Graph look:


----------



## Barleywater (Dec 11, 2011)

Aha, no wonder! Of course sub always looks jacked up in graphs. Microphone 3' from sub and 11' from mains doesn't work well for measurement purposes. Can you place sub next to a speaker for a measurement, or move microphone to 11' from sub for sub measurement?

Andrew


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

Barleywater said:


> Aha, no wonder! Of course sub always looks jacked up in graphs. Microphone 3' from sub and 11' sub doesn't work well for measurement purposes. Can you place sub next to a speaker for a measurement, or move microphone to 11' from sub for sub measurement?
> 
> Andrew







HeHe, I gues that was My Noob Mistake I thought I was to measure all the speakers from the listening position.. it just happens that the front speakers are 11' from the listening position and the sub is about 3-4' from the listening position. I just recently placed it back by the couch in a near field position..

Well I Went to HiFi House today and was listening to some VERY Expensive speakers like Speakers from wilson Audio (by the way are they really a Good speaker I know they are expensive hehe!!)

But I think I figured out what my system is lacking High end.. It even shows in the Graphs I should of took notice of it with the Graph..

I think my Mid and Low end is fine just the highs are lacking. I mean considering those speakers I was listening to were 19K, I dont think my $200 a Pair speaker was not too far off from what those thing sounded like, Seriously.. I mean NOT as good but pretty close. I know my Sub Held it's own with their 9K sub..

That sub was 9k tbut it was comparable to my HSU-VTF1.. I watched a James Bond Blu ray scene and the bass sounded almost like mine abit mine ran a little hotter but similar.. I was happy thinking my $600 Sub near bested a 9k sub LOL!!

I did put a post in the Speaker section but am getting some bookshelf reccomendations just not sure those little speakers can compare to a floor Standing Speaker?? Maybe I am wrong in that theory??

I did ask the Salesmen about B&W and he said the Wilson Audio will blow the B&W away.. well I figured probally just salesmen talk but just maybe they guy was telling the truth.. Well anyhow at least I had the chance to hear some HIGH End Equipment and compare to my Low Budget system.. I was fairly surprised..

Now IF we go by what that graph is indicating the Highs just are NOT there, Would there anything I could do to raise the Highs like DR up my current speakers or would it be prudent to just set budget and try and get some decent speakers in my price range??

I have seen some good speakers on the net but most of them are NOT in Local stores around here?? How am I going to listen to it to determine the quality besides someone else's review or opinion that it sounds good..

*Edit: I just Purchased a Mic Stand and needed to get an adapter bracket for the SPL Meter from amazon. Hopefully I will NOW get some more Accurate readings..*


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

well New Setback but a small one My Sub Died and I think it is the Amp. gonna test that in a Few but since I have some refelctions and resonance coming from the Sony speakers would adding 
Acousta-Stuf Help any with the inside Refelctions??


http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-330

*EDIT: Turns out the Amplifier on the Sub is Kaput..*


----------



## Barleywater (Dec 11, 2011)

Organ music contains deepest and purest bass tones of the acoustic instruments. I really like it too. Very difficult to reproduce well.

Definite sub killing material. For $600 I would have some expectation of thermal protection in amplifier. Have you inspected for fuses, and verified that driver voice coil is intact?

Recent acquisition of mic stand implies previous measurements didn't use one. Where these with camera tripod, or handheld? High frequency results are nearly meaningless if microphone isn't perfectly stationary. If held in hand, body reflections also majorly color results.

While contemplating sub remedy you could do some more speaker measurements with new mic stand. Especially interested in a close up (18") with a speaker placed at least 4ft from walls, furnishings, and bodies. 

Regards,

Andrew


----------



## The_Nephilim (Mar 3, 2010)

yes they where handheld measurments..I am just waiting for my mic stand adapter to arrive..

yes it is very difficult to reproduce I found that out.. But I was not listening to any organ music when the sub malfunctioned..it was Van Halens "1984" song..It is Pretty Bass Intensive as well. It is a Synthesizer and there are some really Low notes and hit pretty hard..

I don't think the sub had any thermal protection, By the way what is that exactly.. I would think that if the amp gets too hot it would shut off to preserver itself??


EDIT: I just bought some Acousa Fill so hopefully that will take care of some of the internal refelctions?? I think I will get the mic adapter some time this comming week..

I will then take some more Measurements as you have requested..


----------

