# Too AMP or not tis the question



## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I am contemplating. Should I buy an integrated amp? If so What things should I pay attention to?
I have an Onkyo 606 surround rec., What I believe to be entry level Def tech towers BP-6. I eventually plan on upgrading to a better speaker hopefully with built in sub.

I have been looking on AA's website. I don't think I want to spend more than $500. If I was going to spend more it would have to be around $1800 and I would buy the speakers. ( I am not ready to do that)

There might still be to many variables, but we will see where this goes.


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## sholling (Oct 6, 2010)

You could go with an Onkyo TX-NR709 and use it as a pre/pro if you decide to add an amp later. Your old 606 will make you a fine bedroom receiver so it won't go to waste. I'm mostly using my 809 as a pre/pro.

http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR709-7-2-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B004V8KWQO


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
I agree about the 709. In addition to offering more power, Networked Capabilities, THX Post Processing, and the essential Preamp Outputs for adding an Amplifier, it also offers Audyssey's far more powerful MultEQ XT as opposed to the 2EQ in the 606.
J


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## ansat (Apr 22, 2011)

Save your cash. Money spent on a amp or even upgrading a reciever will be very little difference for the money. Def techs don't need a lot of power to shine (very efficient speakers). The bp6s are good speakers and the only thing I have bad to say about then is the sharp rolloff at 60hz. But Monet spent in a quality sub would do those speakers something great. I have both the bp6 and the 7006bp. Deftechs integrated subs are overrrate and will always leave something to be esired. Plus integrated subs. Just wretch havoc on calibration.


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## dsully444 (Apr 10, 2008)

I have an older model 805 that i use as a pre-pro being powered by an emotiva XPA-5. I just had a dedicated 15 amp set up for the amp. It drives CHTs Sho-10s for the front and I think is sounds fantastic. my original set up had older tower speakers and there was a marked improvement in sound level with the Amp -vs- just the 805. However, the towers were not very efficient. now that everything is all built in, it is hard for me to compare the SHO-10s being run by the 805 by itself vs the 805+AMP. SHO-10s are pretty efficient so you may not see a difference, with the towers there was a difference.

I agree with ANSAT, to get the most improvement get a powerful big sub. You will probably see the msot improvement there.


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## koyaan (Mar 2, 2010)

Audiodreamer said:


> I am contemplating. Should I buy an integrated amp? If so What things should I pay attention to?
> I have an Onkyo 606 surround rec., What I believe to be entry level Def tech towers BP-6. I eventually plan on upgrading to a better speaker hopefully with built in sub.
> 
> I have been looking on AA's website. I don't think I want to spend more than $500. If I was going to spend more it would have to be around $1800 and I would buy the speakers. ( I am not ready to do that)
> ...


Are you intrested in 2-channel music only ? If that's the case an integrated amp is probably what you want. AVRs simply give you a lot of goodies that you don't need.However, a $500 integrated amp probably won't sound a lot better than your reciever. If you're intrested in theater-type applications, then you certainly do not want an integrates amp ( an integrated amp is like a 2-channel analog-only receiver with no radio tuner). If your talking about adding a power amp to use with the Onkyo , I doubt that it will help much given your speakers.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

dsully444 said:


> I have an older model 805 that i use as a pre-pro being powered by an emotiva XPA-5. I just had a dedicated 15 amp set up for the amp. It drives CHTs Sho-10s for the front and I think is sounds fantastic. my original set up had older tower speakers and there was a marked improvement in sound level with the Amp -vs- just the 805. However, the towers were not very efficient. now that everything is all built in, it is hard for me to compare the SHO-10s being run by the 805 by itself vs the 805+AMP. SHO-10s are pretty efficient so you may not see a difference, with the towers there was a difference.
> 
> I agree with ANSAT, to get the most improvement get a powerful big sub. You will probably see the msot improvement there.


Hello,
The 805 is an amazingly powerful AVR for its price and honestly compares to many flagship AVR's. Much of the difference you might notice when using your HT is the 32db of Gain the Emotiva's use. (AKA Gain Structure) This makes it much louder at below Reference Levels than almost all comparable Amplifiers and AVR's.

This much gain is used to both ensure compatibility with AVR's with poorly designed Preamp Stages and also to give a new owner the impression of endless amounts of power. I once hooked up an XPA-2 and did a listening test between it and my Aragon 8008bb. The XPA-2 uses a 1.2 kVA Toroidal Transformer and 60,000uf of Filter Capacitance. The 8008bb is a Dual Mono Amplifier where there are dual Toroidal Transformers, Capacitor Banks, etc. The only thing shared is the Power Cable. Each Channel uses a 1.1 kVA Toroidal Transformer and 70,000uf of Filter Capacitance. So a total of 2.2 kVA Power Supply and 140,000uf of Filter Capacitance.

Where it gets tricky is that the Aragon has a very low Gain Structure and truth be told many AVR's do not have the Preamp Voltage to attain full power. As the 8008bb is an almost $3000 Amplifier, it was intended to be used primarily with dedicated Preamps as opposed to AVR's. 

Long story short, when switching from one to the other, the folks I had over could not believe how much louder the XPA-2 was from -40 to -20. Or 20 to 40 Decibels below Reference. However, as the volume approached Reference Level, they could not believe just how much louder and composed the 8008bb was.

This test was precipitated by a friends assertion that his XPA-2 was better than his Plinius SA-103 ($8000 Amplifier Made in New Zealand with a monster Power Supply) and that he had been swindled by the Dealer he purchased it from and had fallen for High End Audio hocus pocus. As he was in town visiting and I have a friend nearby with an XPA-2, I decided to have a test using a pair of Paradigm Studio 100 V.2's, and an Onkyo TX-SR875 AVR.

Please do not get me wrong, I think Emotiva provides fantastic value. It is just the Gain Structure being so high makes it difficult to compare to other Amplifiers and AVR's. Most Amplifiers a far lower Gain Structure due to concerns about the Noise Floor. All the same, I do think it can distort some people's perception of other Amplifiers and even the difference between an Emotiva and the AVR that it is being used with.

Here is the Bench Test of the TX-SR805:
"HT Labs Measures: Onkyo TX-SR805 A/V Receiver
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1 percent distortion at 162.0 watts 
1 percent distortion at 184.5 watts

All channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 
0.1 percent distortion at 120.4 watts 
1 percent distortion at 151.7 watts

Analog frequency response in Pure Audio mode: 
–0.07 dB at 10 Hz; –0.02 dB at 20 Hz 
–0.03 dB at 20 kHz; –0.24 dB at 50 kHz

Analog frequency response with signal processing: 
–0.34 dB at 10 Hz; –0.12 dB at 20 Hz 
–0.43 dB at 20 kHz; –38.47 dB at 50 kHz

This graph shows that the TX-SR805’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 181.8 watts and 1 percent distortion at 212.3 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 327.6 watts and 1 percent distortion at 369.0 watts.
Cheers,
JJ


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## ansat (Apr 22, 2011)

At the level that it appears that you are at don't chase the little stuff. There is plenty of time to throw hundreds at small changes. Biggest bang is a good Internet direct sub. Second is simple room treatments.

Ansat


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

ansat said:


> Save your cash. Money spent on a amp or even upgrading a reciever will be very little difference for the money. Def techs don't need a lot of power to shine (very efficient speakers).


The Def tech towers BP-6 are not that efficient even at 91db they are 8ohm and thus will still very easily over drive the internal amps on the 606 that only truly put out about 50wats per ch all channels driven.
The 709 however would output at least 85Watts per channel all channels driven that alone will mean less distortion and higher output. 
As jack already stated there is value in upgrading to the 709.


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## ansat (Apr 22, 2011)

Bp6 are a 6ohm load. That onkyo would be fine under that load. Putting any amps on deftechs risks noise intereference. I spent months bringing my speakers to acceptable noise levels and I am running def tech 7006's bp6's studio 350's and a mythos solo Xl. All deftech speakers state 8 ohm compadibility but actually measure in the 6s. Source is deftech customer service.


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## OZZIERP (Feb 19, 2012)

To add to what was already said to gain 3db over what you have now you will have to double the current wattage.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I may not be quite as savvy as some, but I've heard good sound and Ive heard better sound.
If I am looking for good clean detailed sound, do I chase down watts per channel or bigger speakers

If a person goes to a big box store and listens to several different Def Tech speakers or any other manufacture and can tell the difference...It makes a person want to go by bigger speakers.

You go to a friends and listen to his who knows how many $1000's of dollars of equipment and say that sounds good. Not sure that you want to spend all of that money but you want your system to sound better, which way do you go??????


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## ansat (Apr 22, 2011)

First step since you have bp speakers is to maximize what you have without spending money. Placement is a huge factor. Next you want to determine what your needs. Music vs movies. Then determine what you are missing. Is it bass, is it clarity at high volumes? Good imaging? Now if you are missing clarity at high volumes then you are in need of good clean watts. Bass is easy.. add a sub (which will also take some load from the. Bp6 and in turn give you better sound that will be richer. Imaging, that's just placement. Seperate the fronts and toe them in a little. At this point if you decide you need more watts then you need to upgrade recievers.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

"Bigger speakers" is the wrong terminology, Better quality speakers would be the better term. As the quality goes up the sound quality will improve.


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## ansat (Apr 22, 2011)

The bp6 is a excellent speaker. Are there better speakers... Ya... But deftech makes good quality gear with excellent customer service. Based on what I read, I think that his current gear is being under utilized. A onkyo 60x plus bp6 can sound great. But the bp6 is very picky on placement and similar to a sub, this speaker chooses its placement. You might find out that this is not the right speaker for your room.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I guess I should clarify that this is not a dedicated listening room. I have to share. With that said I do not have treatments all over. The room is basically open living room / entry 23'6" x 17'6" cathedral.

I have separated my fronts about 10' and sweet spot is about same distance from left and right. When I switch to 2channel on 606 sound seems to be from center.

I had an energy 8" 150w sub (it was on sale and needed one) It seemed fine for a while. Then I got the BP6's and the lows were better from them.

Now I know that I would benefit from a great quality sub, but I think My focus is else where.

Mainly movies but when I want I want to sit back and enjoy some music, I want it to sound as impressive.
In my mind it is the high frequencies that seem to be less impressive.

Also I believe that my sound is not best (but better) at high volumes than at lower. Is this just my perception? I I would like great sound at both high and low volumes.


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## ansat (Apr 22, 2011)

Now that is a much tougher question. With the deftechs and onkyo I would expect to hear the exact opposite. Chasing watts won't help much in the highs. How far are the speakers from the wall, also are they toed in? Are you using audyssey or have you manually calibrated. Have you tried readjusting your reciever settings? How close to the speakers to a sidewalk?


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

They are toed in. Left side is about 17" closest point from side. Both speakers are about 21&1/2" to back wall . My right speaker is about 6'. I would suppose that you would say the room only has 3 walls. The 4th wall is also my entry hall.
I do believe that I am currently using the audessy.

Maybe things are just the way the should be but I only imagine that they should be different.???


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

Do I take away from this that an amp will do more for my lows than my highs?

If this is so then my only option must be speakers. 

Thoughts anyone?


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

No, a better amp will help prevent distortion and the distortion in the highs will be the first to be noticeable.
Lows require more power but distortion affects all frequencies.


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## ansat (Apr 22, 2011)

With your budget there isn't many options out there that will achieve what you are asking. My only recomendation would be a mid to high end piece of old tech. Maybe a referb denon 3808. No 3d but good amps and current day decoding. But hooking a amp to what you have would not yield good results.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I know that I cant utilize an amp without pre-amp. Is it my current speaker setup that a pre-amp and amp would not give me desired sound, or is it the receiver? 

If budget were not an issue, but without going crazy, does a person make changes to his speaker system, or his receiver?

If an integrated amp is not or does not produce desired results why are they in the market?

Where does a person start making changes to produce the sound quality he or she desires?


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## OZZIERP (Feb 19, 2012)

Integrated amps are for people that only listen to phono,tape and cd without any need for sound fields or video switching or FM that mainly listen to 2 channel bookshelves or headphones.
Speakers and sub will always give you the most dramatic change in sound next would be placement and room treatments of course the better the source the better the sound.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

I've pretty well ruled out room treatments. When speak of source are we talking about what is being broadcast or that which is receiving a broadcast? Or the difference in every day DAC's or higher end DAC's?

Is the bottom line if you want better sound you need better speakers?

If that doesnt work you need better equipment to drive those better speakers?


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## koyaan (Mar 2, 2010)

A better AVR or processor/Amp will improve the performance of a system( especially improved EQ/room correction), as will a better disc player or turntable ( especially a better cartridge). but all other things being adequate, better speakers will generally give you the biggest bang for the buck.


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## sholling (Oct 6, 2010)

I didn't see anything about you replacing the subwoofer. That would be the first thing I'd put money into. I think adding something like a Rythmik FV15 would make more difference than anything else you could do.


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## ansat (Apr 22, 2011)

You made mention earlier of unimpressive highs. It this for music or movies?


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

ansat said:


> You made mention earlier of unimpressive highs. It this for music or movies?


I would say more in the music side of things. I think there is a whole lot of other things going on during movies, also when it comes to movies, especially the action adventure type It seems to me that the LFE's stand out more than anything. So!

Lows for movies and I pretty sure I can correct that with a decent sub.

Highs for music, ? is what to do about them?
Then again it could be the whole sound stage.

Maybe I am being to critical or picky, maybe I need totally different speakers.

If it is by way of speakers???? For the money do I go with Axiom Audio M60's or M80's and have to definitely upgrade receiver to handle 4 ohm, or stay with def tech which I know the higher are getting a little too pricey.

So again if it is by way of speakers and spending money what are options?


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## ansat (Apr 22, 2011)

Got 2 things for you to test. 
1. Move those speakers closer to the back wall. My bp6s liked about 12 inches. And also don't toe in the speakers. This will massively change the sound of the speakers. The redo the audyssey setup.

2. Manually adjust your eq. Don't let audyssey dictate what sounds good.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

When manually adjusting eq is there any rule of thumb as to the db level of each frequency range?


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## sholling (Oct 6, 2010)

Audiodreamer said:


> I would say more in the music side of things. I think there is a whole lot of other things going on during movies, also when it comes to movies, especially the action adventure type It seems to me that the LFE's stand out more than anything. So!
> 
> Lows for movies and I pretty sure I can correct that with a decent sub.
> 
> ...


This just reminded me of something. Two or three years ago I was tearing my hair out trying to figure out why my BA VR3 speakers and SVS PB12 Plus/2 sub sounded muted like a blanket had been thrown over them. It's why I had Jim Salk build me a customized set of Song Towers to replace my beloved VR3s but the STs sounded almost as muted. After installing room treatments and replacing great speakers with phenomenal speakers that still sounded awful I eventually bought an XPA-2 and XPA-3. Like you the only possible remaining cause for the muted sound that made sense to me was that maybe I didn't have enough power to let the Salks work. But even with new speakers and big gnarly amps I still found my system nearly unlistenable _with Audyssey enabled_. Then I came across a story that there was to be an unofficial recall of Audyssey mics based on a report that Onkyo accidentally shipped the wrong mics (ACM1 vs ACM1 H) with some of their x06 and x07 receivers. Onkyo replaced the mic that came with my 906 and after rerunning Audyssey with the new mic it was like the blanket had been lifted and I instantly went from an Audyssey skeptic to a big fan of MultiEQ. The improvement in my system was _huge_. The missing highs were back and perfectly balanced with newly punchy mids and restored room shaking lows. Audyssey reportedly has since denied that any problem ever existed and put a stop to Onkyo replacing the mics but for $40 it may be worth buying a replacement and giving that a try. 

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/audio-processing/38412-onkyo-replace-audyssey-amc1-mics.html


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## ansat (Apr 22, 2011)

Audiodreamer said:


> When manually adjusting eq is there any rule of thumb as to the db level of each frequency range?


I will boost no further then 6db. Cutting frequencies won't cause much harm


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

When it comes to adding a power amplifier to an AVR I am one that believes the Richard Clark challenge pretty much sums up what the results will be.
http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm 
Unless you are one of the crazy few that actually 'need' more power I do not think there will be any SQ differences.
Having said that I have considered adding one of the Outlaw power amps to my system even though I don't think I need it or that it will make anything sound better.... I just want one, yeah it's crazy and I have no explaination for it, but I pull up the spec page and admire it on a fairly regular basis.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

Just to let everyone know, i did two things at once and I should have only done one at a time. I squared my fronts up with room and set onkyo on manual eq. Immediate sound improvement. I am going to toe the speakers back in and listen some more.

I think with going to manual eq, I will prevent myself from spending any money (now)

In the future however there will be a speaker upgrade. Def Tech? not sure I know they are great speakers, that also have a very great price tag. I don't know there may be another brand as impressive or better with a better price point.


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## ansat (Apr 22, 2011)

Audiodreamer said:


> Just to let everyone know, i did two things at once and I should have only done one at a time. I squared my fronts up with room and set onkyo on manual eq. Immediate sound improvement. I am going to toe the speakers back in and listen some more.
> 
> I think with going to manual eq, I will prevent myself from spending any money (now)
> 
> In the future however there will be a speaker upgrade. Def Tech? not sure I know they are great speakers, that also have a very great price tag. I don't know there may be another brand as impressive or better with a better price point.


Money saved is always nice. I would suggest a newer rceiver before speakers. You need something more flexable. Glad we could be some assistance.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

Yes many thanks to all. I can now have a little peace about my system, as entry level as it is I can at least enjoy it more than before. And yes the sub still sucks.

As for the receiver, is the Onkyo 709 the way to go or should I hold out for something different?

Thanks again to everyone for the dialogue.


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## Audiodreamer (Jan 11, 2009)

sholling said:


> I didn't see anything about you replacing the subwoofer. That would be the first thing I'd put money into. I think adding something like a Rythmik FV15 would make more difference than anything else you could do.


Ok I knew the BP6's as entry as they were (are) better than what I had before. I could not pass them up as I got them both for the price of one.

One of the best purchases I've ever made. (one of) I kind of have a problem spending more than twice the amount for a sub. Any other recommendations?


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## ansat (Apr 22, 2011)

There is a few DIY kits that can be had for a good price that 4, 500 can get ya. But a good sub is worth every penny.


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## sholling (Oct 6, 2010)

Audiodreamer said:


> Ok I knew the BP6's as entry as they were (are) better than what I had before. I could not pass them up as I got them both for the price of one.
> 
> One of the best purchases I've ever made. (one of) I kind of have a problem spending more than twice the amount for a sub. Any other recommendations?


The size of the room dictates the size of the subwoofer. Hsu and eD make cheaper 15" subs but the Rythmik has a great reputation for both output levels and sound quality. 

Since manual EQing seems to be helping I'd try to borrow a newer Onkyo mic and see if you're one of those that got a bad mic.


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## ansat (Apr 22, 2011)

sholling said:


> The size of the room dictates the size of the subwoofer. Hsu and eD make cheaper 15" subs but the Rythmik has a great reputation for both output levels and sound quality.
> 
> Since manual EQing seems to be helping I'd try to borrow a newer Onkyo mic and see if you're one of those that got a bad mic.


I don't know if I would recommend a 15. Vaulted ceilings and a open room would help the bass and i think a 12 would make a huge difference. I would suggest grabbing a 12 form a box store with a good return policy to hear the difference. I wouldn't recommend keeping it though. I am a elemental designs fan and partial to them. But Hsu would also be in your budget. 

Other recomendations would be to look at replacing other speakers in your collection


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## sholling (Oct 6, 2010)

ansat said:


> I don't know if I would recommend a 15. Vaulted ceilings and a open room would help the bass and i think a 12 would make a huge difference. I would suggest grabbing a 12 form a box store with a good return policy to hear the difference. I wouldn't recommend keeping it though. I am a elemental designs fan and partial to them. But Hsu would also be in your budget.
> 
> Other recomendations would be to look at replacing other speakers in your collection


15" may be slight overkill but I like overkill with a subwoofer and most good quality 12" subs sold in box stores (Velodyne etc) that are capable of properly pressurizing a 5000 cubic foot room are going to cost more than a Rythmik FV15 (review). The OP's room looks to be between 4500 and 5000 cubic feet depending on average ceiling height. That's plus any open spaces that might be open into the room like hallways etc and 5000cuft is pushing the limit for most affordable 12" subs like a SVSounds PC12-NSD or PB12-NSD review if you want to play down to 20hz at reference levels. It may be enough depending on how loud the OP likes to listen, in fact probably will be enough - but as I said I like a cushion. Of course he could always add a second PB/PC12-NSD down the road if he needs one which would also even out the room response.


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