# SVS or Fathom F113?



## Guest (Jan 22, 2007)

I am trying to decide if I should sell my SVS Plus 2 sub and go with a JL Audio Fathom F113. Does anyone have an opinion whether I would get a big "boost" in performance switching?

Thanks!


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

There's a pretty good discussion going on about that in this thread, although not specific to your question, it might help you decide.

Keep in mind you are comparing a $3300 sub to a $1300 sub... not hardly a fair comparison. Personally I would totally expect the Fathom to outperform the SVS Plus/2 for that price difference. I'd be one upset dude if I bought one and it didn't.

I'd keep the SVS ...OR... save a bunch of money and buy another SVS. I cannot imagine it being worth 2-3 times the cost of the SVS.


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## kramskoi (Jul 12, 2006)

getech said:


> I am trying to decide if I should sell my SVS Plus 2 sub and go with a JL Audio Fathom F113. Does anyone have an opinion whether I would get a big "boost" in performance switching?
> 
> Thanks!


like Sonnie said...it may not be worth the price (i don't totally disagree)...IMO it offers a no nonsense uber-solution for persons who are'nt comfortable with DIY...here the road diverges...DIY'ers (like myself) could take the cost of the fathom and fashion something incredible...however there are those that think that mfg have the edge with expertise and sota modeling software, not to mention the engineering experience...the belief, among these individuals, is that DIY can't achieve comparable levels of performance...but...DIY'ers are'nt afraid to take raw materials and convert them into something "personalized" for their individual space...which no commercial sub can do with the same degree of accuracy.

That said, JL audio has hit the mark with the f113...the consensus is that SVS is not in the same league in rendering the level of detail that the Fathom does...using a sealed alignment with a 4" peak-peak excursion envelope largely negates the output advantage of the dual vented SVS subs...with the displacement of a typical 15" driver, the Fathom can belt out some serious spl and do it with detail and slam...it has the displacement and it has the power.:boxer: 

Craigsub's reviews put the f113 above even the DD-18 from Velodyne, a fact that, for some, is hard to "fathom"...i'd personally enjoy the opportunity to A-B them myself:daydream: 

I can tell you that i've seen this coming...with the advent of super drivers from TC Sounds and Adire Audio...the commercial world is only now finding out what DIYers have known for some time...the sealed alignment is'nt the ugly duckling anymore...with linear motor topologies, linkwitz transform and cheap power, the sealed sub is closing the gap on its vented bretheren...it is no wonder that SVS is raising the ante' with the introduction of their new 13" drivers...the writing is on the wall.

The question becomes what is an acceptable price to pay for the quality and detail of such a subwoofer...for some it will indeed prove to be cost prohibitive...that does'nt mean that uncompromising persons won't sell their souls to procure one...or two for that matter:T 

My advice is to demo a fathom and decide for yourself is it's worth the price...only way you'll truly know...good luck.


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## MrPorterhouse (Jul 29, 2006)

If I could afford a JL Audio sub of any type, I'd buy one. I've always loved their car audio subs and was amazed at how much output and extension I could get out of the JL 8" subs. Home theater is a different beast, but those JL Audio subs are beautiful, solid, and a showpiece of engineering. They are not value items, thats for sure. SVS is a value leader. On a pure performance level, you'd have to do A/B comparisons, but ****, I'd still take the JL audio just because it would be like having a Ferrari where you don't care if it is the fastest...its a Ferrari.


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## Exocer (Apr 19, 2006)

kramskoi said:


> like Sonnie said...it may not be worth the price (i don't totally disagree)...IMO it offers a no nonsense uber-solution for persons who are'nt comfortable with DIY...here the road diverges...DIY'ers (like myself) could take the cost of the fathom and fashion something incredible...however there are those that think that mfg have the edge with expertise and sota modeling software, not to mention the engineering experience...the belief, among these individuals, is that DIY can't achieve comparable levels of performance...but...DIY'ers are'nt afraid to take raw materials and convert them into something "personalized" for their individual space...which no commercial sub can do with the same degree of accuracy.
> 
> That said, JL audio has hit the mark with the f113...the consensus is that SVS is not in the same league in rendering the level of detail that the Fathom does...using a sealed alignment with a 4" peak-peak excursion envelope largely negates the output advantage of the dual vented SVS subs...with the displacement of a typical 15" driver, the Fathom can belt out some serious spl and do it with detail and slam...it has the displacement and it has the power.:boxer:
> 
> ...


Well said champ :T


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2007)

Thanks all of you for some great feedback on the Fathom F113 vs. SVS subs....

JL Audio is promoting their Fathom line by declaring that for peak performance, you have to use TWO of their subs at a minimum to get the best possible dispersion and sound quality. They have suggested that irregardless of other claims, if you have just one sub on one side of your home theater, the pressure will be originating from that one side. To balance it out, they are suggested at least two of their F113's. Quite an investment however!


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## Exocer (Apr 19, 2006)

Well, having one sub in each corner definitely does even out the bass sound if and only if your in-room frequency response is peaky, it'll also add another 3db of headroom accross the FR range. It really depends on the effect your room has on frequency response if having two subs is worth it. Buying 1 Fathom and pairing it with an SMS-1 would be a cheaper route to getting an even bass sound.


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2007)

doesn anyone know the current msrp of the f112 and f113?

I"m told that the f112 in satin finish is now 2600? and 100 more for gloss.

i think original msrp when it first came out was 2200 and 2400?


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

getech said:


> I am trying to decide if I should sell my SVS Plus 2 sub and go with a JL Audio Fathom F113. Does anyone have an opinion whether I would get a big "boost" in performance switching?
> 
> Thanks!


Here’s a review of the JL Fathom. The reviewer claims it outperforms the SVS PB12-Plus/2. That’s quite a feat, because that SVS is the most amazing, detailed sub I’ve ever heard.

Regards,
Wayne


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:


> That’s quite a feat, because that SVS is the most amazing, detailed sub I’ve ever heard.


So you've actually heard one (or two)... :whistling:

It does make me wonder why we might would spend that much more knowing that you could get as good at the PB12-Plus/2 for so much less $$$... but hey.... if I had it I might be :spend:


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2007)

Sonnie said:


> So you've actually heard one (or two)... :whistling:
> 
> It does make me wonder why we might would spend that much more knowing that you could get as good at the PB12-Plus/2 for so much less $$$... but hey.... if I had it I might be :spend:


LOL, I just got back form a demo local to me of both Fathoms F112 and F113. Those subs are UNREAL. Side by side against the Velodyne it was close. The BASS was gut wrenching, like someone was hitting me with a baseball bat in the stomach. Now i gotta stomach the submission price of one .... Come on bonus.

My friend has the SVS and it doesn't even compare to the JL's. They take the cake, but **** they better for the price.


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## Sonnie (Apr 11, 2006)

NO1B4ME said:


> My friend has the SVS and it doesn't even compare to the JL's. They take the cake, but they better for the price.


That's a pretty broad statement. I believe to quantify that you would need to have both subs side by side, then you would need to have the best that SVS makes. As far as gut wrenching, I doubt you'd notice much difference listening at the same normal levels. Plus, I'm not anyone wants anything that makes them feel like a baseball bat hitting them in the stomach. :scratch:

Come to my house with my pair of SVS PB12-Plus/2's and I'll show ya some gut wrenching and teeth shattering bass if that's what you want... it just doesn't get much better, maybe a tad cleaner, but not much meaner. :flex:


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

"my friend has the SVS ..."

indicates that you listened to the subwoofers in different environments.
not really a fair comparison.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2007)

I haven't heard any of the SVS subs, so I can't say which is better. I can tell you that the jl f113 is incredible. I bought one last tuesday, gloss finish for $2,449. :T


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

I haven't heard the SVS's too. but for HT use, I would definitely recommend the SVS simply because they're cheaper. you don't need "audiophile" grade subwoofers for BOOMS and BANGS. what you need is REW+BFD or the Velodyne SMS-1.

let's see:

700-800 bucks for the SMS-1 (or a lot cheaper for the REW and BFD combo)
1800 bucks for dual 20-39 PC plus (one placed nearfield, one placed up front ... or both nearfield)


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2008)

I think f-113s have a list price of $3,500.
I own two of them. Bought the first one and then realized that I needed a second one to eliminate the localized sound of just one sub. The second one took care of that. I LOVE these two subs.




Roc Rinaldi
6,400 watt; 7.1 surround with 7 floor standing Klipsch speakers and 2 f-113 subs; McIntosh power and processing


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## warpdrive (May 6, 2007)

If I could afford the JL Audio, I would buy one in a heartbeat. It's a high end sub in every way, and I doubt that I would need any more performance than that. And I just like the size better, it's suits my sensibilities that audio equipment shouldn't dominate the room. No ugly speckled black refrigerator sized Epik or eD subs for me.

With all due respect to Craigsub, you really should listen for yourself to decide. One man's 80 point sub may be another man's 60 point sub.


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## bricor (Apr 27, 2006)

I have a F113 and it is an amazing piece of engineering. But that price.... :unbelievable:
I want 2 subs and can't stomach the cost of a 2nd F113 so I have a pair of Epik Towers on order now. I think that is about as big as I can stomach.


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## mazersteven (Apr 5, 2007)

getech said:


> Thanks all of you for some great feedback on the Fathom F113 vs. SVS subs....
> 
> JL Audio is promoting their Fathom line by declaring that for peak performance, you have to use TWO of their subs at a minimum to get the best possible dispersion and sound quality. They have suggested that irregardless of other claims, if you have just one sub on one side of your home theater, the pressure will be originating from that one side. To balance it out, they are suggested at least two of their F113's. Quite an investment however!


Have you thought about up-grading to the SVS PB13-Ultra? I hear the PB13-Ultra puts up some excellent performance numbers vs. the Fathom F113. I'm not saying it out performs it. But saying that the law of diminishing returns isn't as great as with the PB12-Plus/2. It's also half the cost of the Fathom. :bigsmile:

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

mazersteven said:


> Have you thought about up-grading to the SVS PB13-Ultra? I hear the PB13-Ultra puts up some excellent performance numbers vs. the Fathom F113. I'm not saying it out performs it. But saying that the law of diminishing returns isn't as great as with the PB12-Plus/2. It's also half the cost of the Fathom. :bigsmile:
> 
> http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm


actually he has (check the date of the OP)

he has been converted from someone trying to sell F113's to someone who's singing praises for the PB13Ultra! :hide:


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## mazersteven (Apr 5, 2007)

mike c said:


> actually he has (check the date of the OP)
> 
> he has been converted from someone trying to sell F113's to someone who's singing praises for the PB13Ultra! :hide:


Maybe I missed it. But I only read 1 reference to the Ultra in this thread.


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## mike c (Apr 25, 2006)

mazersteven said:


> Maybe I missed it. But I only read 1 reference to the Ultra in this thread.


sorry, he's a poster at AVS. 

during the time of the OP, he has been making threads like this to bait people to say that the F113 was the greatest (or to create discussion on the F113) e.g. F113 vs. earthquake subs on AVS

his first few posts were mostly singing praises of F113 when later it was discovered he was selling F113's. later on, he switched his song and started praising the ultras ... he must have been kicked off the JL team (if he even was on it)


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## weeZ (Sep 10, 2006)

Back in December I took my PBs to a friend's dedicated room who had dual F113 for an afternoon of comparisons. We started off with the PBs, (let me say they sound totally different in a controlled environment) using the usual material, Pulse, WotW, Transformers and T3. In the 20Hz tune, to me the calibration seemed too hot for the 13s or maybe in was the enclosed room? The JL's had a more detailed sound, and the PBs had more impact you could feel across the room.

Next was a sealed vs sealed. The ultras sounded completely different, and the consensus was that everyone liked the sound better than wide open. Hard to explain, but it sounded smoother? Not sure if that's the right description but it was nice! In sealed mode the ultras sound pretty close to the F113s, but I think the the later edged ahead due to more power. Music was great! JL was the clear winner with music, but did it sound $3900(retail) better?

When I brought the ultras home I tried them sealed and in my cavernous space they sounded anemic. With all ports plugged there was just not enough pressure to fill the room, I would guess the JLs would be similar.


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## mazersteven (Apr 5, 2007)

Keith,

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts, and pictures. Excellent. :T


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## thxgoon (Feb 23, 2007)

mike c said:


> sorry, he's a poster at AVS.
> 
> during the time of the OP, he has been making threads like this to bait people to say that the F113 was the greatest (or to create discussion on the F113) e.g. F113 vs. earthquake subs on AVS
> 
> his first few posts were mostly singing praises of F113 when later it was discovered he was selling F113's. later on, he switched his song and started praising the ultras ... he must have been kicked off the JL team (if he even was on it)


:rolleyesno: it's no wonder why people don't trust salesmen...


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## rubbersoul (Nov 12, 2007)

I purchased the Fathom 113 about two months. I love it. I would have like to have bought two but obviously price is definitly a factor. I paid $3000.00. While some people would say that is a ricdiculous amount of money to spend for just a sub I can say that I made that same statement in regards to the price of B&W speakers just a year ago.
This past November my wife surprised me with a loaded question..."what would you want different in our dedicated home theater if you could change it and afford it."

That's right. My wife said that.

My response...Honey B&W 800 series speakers. That night we went to a local home theater audio video store and bought my dream speakers.

So I guess what I am trying to say is if you have the money to spend and you have an understanding wife nothing is that ridiculous. 

The Fathom 113 is located in the back of our Home Theater. That position by the way is not recommended by JL Audio. Yet it sounds great and fills my room which is 25'L 12'W with 6.5" ceilings. I used the built in calibration system and noticed a substantial impovement in the total fullness that I was looking for.
I am very happy with this sub and my only dissapointment is that I do not have the finances to purchase two of them. YET!!


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2008)

Where is the cheapest place to buy the f 113 Jl Sub? One guy here said he got it for $2,449. The cheapest I found is 2800.00 in the gloss finish.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

This is my opinion on this, I have a PB13 Ultra. I know that the PB12 is older but why replace it why not just add PB 13 Ultra to your system as many have already stated having two subs always improves the smoothness. The price difference between the SVS and the F113 is very steep and I can say for certain that its not going to be that big a difference.
As some have said in order to know for sure if the f133 is going to sound better than the Ultra it must be done side by side in the same listening environment. Will it out preform the Ultra could very well but for an extra $1800 or more I bet its not that big a difference.


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## rubbersoul (Nov 12, 2007)

Everyone has an opinion and that is what is so GREAT about forums like Home Theater Shack. Six months of ownership is coming up now since I have own the Fathom113 and I still think that it is worth every penny and I agreed that to have a fair evaluation on these subs it should be done side by side. Even then it is a matter of ones own listening preference. 
I do not want to look at any grids or look at numbers on scales that essentially mean nothing to me. I want to HEAR what those graphs represent.
When I bought my B&W 804"s I spent about twenty hours of listening to them on different venues. Twenty hours is not really a good gauge of time when making a important decesion as buying speakers that you intend to keep for years of enjoyment to come, not to mention going back and forth to the Audio store and dealing with ones own ??? about what is the right choice. I also listened to Paradigm, Klispch and Dynaudio giving them all equal time. 
Loved them all but made a decesion to kept the B&W's. Likewise with listening to subwoofers which is somewhat more challedgeing I listened to B&W's PV1, Martin Logan Depth and Rel along with the Fathom 113. My choice was of course...the Fathom. 
I might have went overboard with my spending $$$$$ but I feel that I made a good choice and I do not regret it. 
The money in the end is all relative to ones own buying power. If you can afford it then why not? Do not get me wrong I am by no means wealthly to the extent that I throw money away. I currently own Outlaws 990/7700 combo and feel it does justice to my B&W's and the 113. 
My dream Pre/Pro is MacIntosh new or used but I do not forsee this dream coming full circle.
The 990 is smooth, crisp and detailed when I am listening to music and a great for movies. The Outlaws' are coming out with a new flagship processor in the fall and I MIGHT consider upgrading depending on the features and the reviews. I am sure magazines like Home Theater and Sound and Vision will scrutinize this new model and I axiously await the reviews. 

PS....tonyvdb your system setups look impressive. Like to see some pictures.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

rubbersoul said:


> PS....tonyvdb your system setups look impressive. Like to see some pictures.


Thanks, I need to get some more photos up but here is my setup thread for the new SVS PB13 Ultra that I have.

And here is my Home theater setup thread, Its changed a bit but you will get the idea.


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## rubbersoul (Nov 12, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> Thanks, I need to get some more photos up but here is my setup thread for the new SVS PB13 Ultra that I have.
> 
> And here is my Home theater setup thread, Its changed a bit but you will get the idea.


Nice job!
Congrats!


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## diablo (Sep 18, 2007)

I think that both subs are great performers. I auditioned the f113 when it first came out, but the price was too much for me. The f113 advantage was its smaller size and the auto eq. In my case the size wasn't the issue so after seeing the tests of the PB113 I ordered one and a Velodyne SMS-1 for an eq. I feel I have equal or better performance, with a more comprehensive eq solution for way less cost tan the f113 alone would have cost


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## rubbersoul (Nov 12, 2007)

I think that SVS puts out some great products and I myself was thinking about there PC-Plus cyclinder. 
My first time purchasing equipment on line was with Outlaw Audio. I bought their 990/7700 combo. My rule of thumb was never to buy electronics over the internet....especially before you listen to the product.
My experience with Outlaw was and is fantastic. However my purchase of the 990/7700 was only after I had first handed listen to products from Outlaw at several home theater shows. I thought that there subs were tight clean and LOUD enough to handle my home theater. In the end I had listened to the Fathom 113 many times and deceided that it was a better match for my home theater and for my taste. 
Yes the price tag was a lot higher but I feel and know that it is a well made speaker and a great performer. There are people who spend thousands and even hundred thousands for home theater and it boils down to what you can afford and feel more comfortable with in your enviornment. I am sure you are happy with your PB 113 and I am sure that it is also a great performer but as I said previously everyone one has different tastes and appetites for home theater equipment everyone makes choices that is why they make chocolate and vanillia ice cream.

For me I made the perfect choice!


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## z_accoustics (Mar 1, 2007)

kutlow said:


> Where is the cheapest place to buy the f 113 Jl Sub? One guy here said he got it for $2,449. The cheapest I found is 2800.00 in the gloss finish.


Where are you finding it for $2,800? I would also like to know where to get a good deal on these. I doubt the $2,449 story.


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## rubbersoul (Nov 12, 2007)

z_accoustics said:


> Where are you finding it for $2,800? I would also like to know where to get a good deal on these. I doubt the $2,449 story.



Hey Z:bigsmile:
I cannot answer for the member who made the intial quote, but I have seen the Fathom 113 On AudioGon brand new under the $3000.00 price range and if I remember correctly I think I saw it as low as $2500.00
Myself, I paid $3200.00, no tax in gloss black. I was the first to purchase this sub from the home theater store that I deal with. :yay:
It was the third subwoofer that I had tried to introduce into my system. I am definitely a bass-addict and proud of it.:boxer: :hsd:

It is a lot of money for one speaker and perhaps there are other subs that are cheaper in price that would give a nice tight big bang boom effect as the Fathom 113 but it comes down to choices and what one can afford which is just as important as buying home theater equipment on a tighter budget. There are no right or wrongs as long as you are happy with your choice.


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## kyle_k (Oct 10, 2007)

Actually, the SVS13 will probably Klippel much more linear than the JL woofer inside of xmax.

underhung woofers are inherently more linear within their xmax because of the absence of fringe field effects. The JL woofer does not have a linear BL curve.. I have measured one so don’t get on my case about that! Both woofers have good linear suspension systems. The JL will move more and have more usable throw (longer coil than the SVS gap), but within the limits, the SVS will probably win in terms of distortion... granted we can throw in all the psychological options here and say... “some” distortion is OK some sounds good and some sounds bad etc etc... Believe me, the F113 has its fair share of distortion and its mostly even ordered so its sounds “OK” but from a factual standpoint, under hung are more linear....... I’m just saying……

Having said that, there is also the whole frequency response thing. ported subwoofers have more low end SPL, this helps and hurts. Often times I will see people discount ported woofers because of that... too much low end bass for some reason makes them less desirable for "music" - could be argued.

In any case, both subs are exceptional designs… the F113 seems to also have a major advantage in amplification … certainly worth extra dollars, but is it worth double the SVS? I guess your checkbook will decide that one!


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## rubbersoul (Nov 12, 2007)

Whew....you said a mouthful. How can I argue with all of that technical mumbo jumbo. Linear curve and underhung woofers.
I am taking this all in perspective. I am a Home Theater enthusist. What sounds good and looks good on the screen is what is important to me and I know many other audio and video enthusists feel the same way.
As far as getting on your case my post prior this this one was only to make a point that everyone has choices to make in deceiding how much to spend and what they feel will sound good in there Home Theater. I am not argueing with the fact that SVS puts out a fine product. What I am convinced about is that the Fathom 113 is a GREAT subwoofer and if the price does not offend your wallet then it is a good buy for a GREAT subwoofer. 
If you cannot afford to buy a Cadillac why look and why put it down? Doing so is insulting.


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## bobgpsr (Apr 20, 2006)

Kyle was talking about the effects of a non-linear BL curve. Not "putting it down" but rather raising a concern about the distortion that results when the voice coil is driven into the non-linear part of the BL curve. Just facts. No bashing.


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## rubbersoul (Nov 12, 2007)

Thanks for clearing that point up.
I guess I took the remarks to personal.

Sorry.


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## pnutbutter81 (Jun 6, 2008)

With all of these posts in mind, I think you guys should all put a fathom 13 or 12 up to a Sunfire true subwoofer signature eq (dual "10, $1800 most places). All their true sub's are dualed by design and function. I have spoken with some highly prestigious sound engineers who have setup recording studios and rooms for celebrities, tina turner, phil collins, chirstina aguilera, without a price in mind, and have explained "it is not worth getting 5% more for paying $2000 more then a sunfire true sub signature eq". I just replaced my CHT velodyne (bought used $325 at a pawn shop) with one of those, and am broke now aswell, and have gone to heaven after correct calibration. I highly considered a fathom and brought that up with them. They have used them aswell as subs we all jus can't afford way beyond a fathom's price and still believed there wasn't anything better suited to keep your pocket happy and ego braggin then a sunfire. Just my opinion though. I have been an audio/videophile for a few years now.


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## halco (Feb 12, 2010)

jl f113


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## pnutbutter81 (Jun 6, 2008)

I would have to agree with this 2 replies above. Amongst all the subs out there and running through them, every guy I truly believe in (highly recognized audio engineers, hobbyist/calibrators) would not stop pushing me to try sunfire flagship sub. I also finally chose it even with some regret looking at the price ($1499 shipped). I'm only going to say, can't wait to do another sometime down the road to get the whole sonic bliss I already get from one. The auto calibration is impeccable and has blown any larger sub I've previously had. I do have an auralex bassdude acoustic piece under it, so I would also recommend that. I can only salivate over how it would sound if it wasn't bombarded with furniture/acoustics I have in my room and could actually be put in the correct spot aswell as with a properly treated room. There is no doubt it would hit the decibel level it claims from where i sit now. Currently it hits 110db during some bassy songs. But burping it in a proper room would blow that away.


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