# local help needed - tap out



## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

This odyssey of putting in a dedicated home theater has confirmed something that I suspected for years and what my wife has known even longer..... I am a dumb . A real idiot. 

I can' t take it anymore....I need to tap out..

I am ready to put the components together and press the start button but will do the one smart thing throughout this entire ordeal....Hire someone to do it for me.

Can anyone recommend someone to help me out? thanks!!!


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Can we be of help from a distance? What sort of gear do you want help with Receiver connections?


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## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> Can we be of help from a distance? What sort of gear do you want help with Receiver connections?



Many thanks, but I am hoping to have someone set it up properly. Doesn't the projector and speakers need to be calibrated??? Physically set up properly? If it is not difficult to do I can give it a whirl but for some reason thought it needed a professional touch to be done right


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

16-0 said:


> Many thanks, but I am hoping to have someone set it up properly. Doesn't the projector and speakers need to be calibrated??? Physically set up properly? If it is not difficult to do I can give it a whirl but for some reason thought it needed a professional touch to be done right


Well, "need" is a funny word. One man's "need" is another man's "don't even think about it." 
So yes, if you want an accurate display, you should calibrate it or have it calibrated. I have similar thoughts WRT the speakers/receiver/acoustics.

All of this can certainly be DIY, and we have experts who can help. If you want to do it right, you'll invest some time and a little money (perhaps as much money as having someone in to do it) but then you'll have learned a lot and might save the cost next time around (some people touch up the calibration on their displays every year or 6 mos, some people tweak their audio/acoustics every so often, or when they buy new gear...)

Of course, the choice is yours.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

What stage are you at with the hooking up? do you have things running yet or do we need to start from the beginning with hooking up the receiver to the speakers etc?
Have a look here first then if you need more info look at this post as well.
I am sure we can walk you through this one step at a time. Dont get yourself overwhelmed its not really that difficult.


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## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

I think I prefer to hire someone. Any thoughts?


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## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

tonyvdb said:


> What stage are you at with the hooking up? do you have things running yet or do we need to start from the beginning with hooking up the receiver to the speakers etc?
> Have a look here first then if you need more info look at this post as well.
> I am sure we can walk you through this one step at a time. Dont get yourself overwhelmed its not really that difficult.



Wow, this is great info. thanks. I couldn't even read it all as I am at work but will dive into it later... Where I'm at right now is the carpet, GIK panels and Carada screen go in this week. there is no in wall wiring (it will sit in the open face crown molding). Then I need to mount the Epson 1080p home cinema projector and connect the SVS 5.1 to the Onkyo 876 and hook up the samsung blue ray player and cable box and then set up a universal remote. Oh, and I think I should buy a conditioner...I remember hearing about that in the past.... Its supposed to be a really good surge protector or something... Is there anything else to be cognizant of?? :help:


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

Dont waist your money on a power conditioner. simply make sure you have two dedicated 15amp circuits for your equipment and buy a trip lite isobar for each circuit they have noise filters for each plug and have a Ultimate Lifetime Insurance on equipment plugged into them.

When your ready to install the equipment just give us a holler and someone will walk you through the steps to hook everything up properly.


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## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

many thanks Tony


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

If you are looking for an installer, best Buy is kind of a safe bet. I haven't heard too many horror stories, and they are fully licensed. Don't know what the comparative cost would be to...

...an independent home theater contractor. Your local yellow pages/google may list a few.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

If you're looking for a calibrator, THX website lets you search for THX certified people in your area. Since you'll probably want the most help with the Projector, look for their Video certification on people. 
Another place to look is ISF. They also train people in color science, and their website has a similar search function. I prefer the THX training course, as unlike ISF, THX requires people to demonstrate an ability to do the calibration. ISF focuses more on the science.
But just because these people passed the courses doesn't mean you can hire them blindly. Interview them the same as you would any contractor.

Or again, you could let us help you do it yourself.


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## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

All you guys are AWESOME. I wish you could all come over for Thanksgiving and a cold beer....

I'd have to put you to work of course.... No sense wasting all that talent.

Happy Bird Day boys and thanks again for all the help and support


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## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

So I went to THX to find a local guy. Shot him an e-mail and this is what I got: 

"Yes, we can do that…

Do you have a control system now?

We only use the MX-850 or Crestron control systems

The Control system defines the experience in many ways and is a big part of the setup.

What is your screen aspect ratio?

What is make and model of the projector and receiver?

What are you using for sources?

Is the equipment installed and working properly now? If so and you require only a basic calibration we may be a able to be done in 1 day

If we are installing the equipment, setting it up and calibrating it I will take a few days"

At $85 an hour I figure this guy would cost me $1500-$1800. If it will take a THX certifieed professional 3 days to do this how could I expect to do it myself? OR...is this guy sensing a sucker?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

The control system is adding the majority of the cost (if included, otherwise add $1k+). Trade that for a harmony remote, and you should find the quote more palatable.

Simply hanging a projector (assuming electric is already done), running cable, calibrating display and speakers, should take no more than 8 hours (I've had it done in a 70', 100 seat theater in 6hr).

As for $85/hour, that's about right, plus the cost of any supplies they use, cables, etc.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

Sorry if I missed something but does your system need to be installed as in running wires thru walls and installing speakers in walls or do you have the room that you just want to set things up so they look nice and work properly. I could think of better things to do with 1800 bucks. I set up my room a little at a time and did the best I could and it came out fine. After it was setup I hired a guy to come and calibrate it all and I paid $150 for a couple of hours of his time. Good luck with what you decide and like others here have stated....You can do it...........:wave:


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## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

eugovector said:


> The control system is adding the majority of the cost (if included, otherwise add $1k+). Trade that for a harmony remote, and you should find the quote more palatable.
> 
> 
> Why would a remote cost $1000+? That seems wicked expensive


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

16-0 said:


> Why would a remote cost $1000+? That seems wicked expensive


its what I call a high end remote but in my opinion Harmony will do just as well and wont break the bank.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

MX-850 = [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Remote-Control-MX-850-Aeros/dp/B0007N5XPW[/ame]

Crestron is the fancy touch screen you see in the magazines and costs much more.

Harmony remote will get you the functionality of the mx-850 for about half price if you shop around and can program it yourself.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Well, I've been to some training classes that pros attend, and frankly I'm apalled at how much they charge to program remotes. 
Generally, the Harmony remotes work great, and are very easy for an owner to program. 
for strictly a video calibration, I would expect someone to be able to give you a flat rate based on what they're going to do, not an hourly rate. A good one will walk you through what can/should be done, and will gladly have you sit next to him as he's explaining everything he's going and why.

It's possible the one guy you contacted happens to be a custom installer who's used to doing high-end and/or whole house systems. There's no way a video cal by an experienced pro should take all day, let alone multiple days. Yes, if you do it yourself, it will take longer as you'll be posting questions which might not get answered for an hour or two, but yes, it IS something you can do yourself, with our help. 

If you prefer to hire a pro, I suggest giving/getting more details from this person, as well as calling a few others. As I said in a previous post, treat this as you would hiring any contractor, never get just one quote.

That being said, it's not uncommon for a COMPLETE calibration, including video, audio, bias lighting, remote programming, etc, to take 2 days and $2k. But the preliminary sections such as hookup are almost certainly within your abilities, again with our help


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

glaufman said:


> Well, I've been to some training classes that pros attend, and frankly I'm appalled at how much they charge to program remotes.


There was an anecdote retold on TWIT a few weeks back that went something like this...

A man saw Salvador Dali, approached him, and asked him if he would create a quick sketch. Dali took a napkin, sketched out a quick, yet artful rendition, and handed it to the man.

"That will be $1 million," Dali said.

"What!?", the man exclaimed. "It only took you 30 seconds to draw that!"

Dali responded, "Yes, 30 seconds to create the sketch, but a lifetime to learn how to draw like that."

---------------

I'm not saying that the complexity of programing a remote warrants the charge, I'm saying that the programmer has knowledge that the client does not, can put that knowledge into practice, and has every right to charge for the practice of that knowledge whatever the market will support. There is no moral imperative to charge less.

If you want to save a little money, see if Monet will work for less, or if you are willing, save a lot by learning to paint yourself.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

eugovector said:


> There was an anecdote retold on TWIT a few weeks back that went something like this...
> 
> A man saw Salvador Dali, approached him, and asked him if he would create a quick sketch. Dali took a napkin, sketched out a quick, yet artful rendition, and handed it to the man.
> 
> ...


I certainly agree with your point, I prefer an old comic strip where someone got a tv repairman in who fixed the set by smacking it, the conversatoin went "I guess you won't be charging much for just thumping it with a screwdriver," "No just 2 quid... and another fifty for knowing where to thump it!"

I'm ok with that, except that the individuals I'm talking about were openly admitting they themselves thought they were gouging and taking advantage of their customers... 

i find attitudes like that disgusting. But that's another thread.


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## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

The guy didn't mention anything about the $85 per hour including the remote or the cabling. All I am saying is that it is a LOT of money per hour for a 3 day job. If it set up was .5 to 1 day I can understand but $600 per day seems excessive. 
Also, if it takes a certified pro that long to do it right then how could I ever even conceive of doing it myself? The next question that pops into my empty head is - How much better will the experience be if I paid the guy? Would a novice like me even notice?


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

glaufman said:


> Well, I've been to some training classes that pros attend, and frankly I'm apalled at how much they charge to program remotes.
> Generally, the Harmony remotes work great, and are very easy for an owner to program.
> for strictly a video calibration, I would expect someone to be able to give you a flat rate based on what they're going to do, not an hourly rate. A good one will walk you through what can/should be done, and will gladly have you sit next to him as he's explaining everything he's going and why.
> 
> ...



I have to take issue with some of this. Flat rates are problematic for some services, but work for others. I have been doing service, design, installation, programming, and calibration since before Home Theater was even a term that was used, and the issue of charges is complex. There are pros and cons to flat rates, but I find that they don't work for calibration. There are too many different conditions and different capabilities for the many brands and models to make it practical to charge a flat rate. Most pros do, but I do not. My rates end up being about the same or less for most calibrations, but when I run into a client with a particularly complex system, or who wants more hand-holding through the process, it works better for me and the client to charge hourly. 

Some calibrations can take multiple days. It depends on what is being done. For someone who just does the routine stuff, it may not, but when providing a more complete service, as I do, it may involve decisions and modifications that go far beyond the norm. Some sets just don't cooperate, and some clients want every last bit of performance that they can get. While it is true that most calibrations can be rather routine, some can be very complex, involving multiple sources or processors.

As for charges for programming, unless you are in the business, you really have a hard time understanding all of the costs that go into providing a service like these. Training, travel, equipment, and all of the overhead make charges seem high, but few are getting rich with these services. I would be loathe to judge what one charges. If it is not worth the price to you or anyone else, then that is the market. Obviously, one charges what the market will bear, and what it takes to stay in business.

There are certainly those who take pride in getting every dollar out of a client that they can and rip people off who don't know any better, and those who provide less than professional service. I see that all the time. Many, however, are just trying to make a living, and what may seem pricey to the DIYer has a very different context for someone trying to run a business.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Without taking us too much further down the rabbit hole, I know a few installers, and none of them drive luxury cars. Can't say the same at the bank down the street, who offers me free checking.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Again, not to delve on this, but Leonard, I did qualify that with video calibration only, and rates based on what has to be done. Multiple inputs shold get more money, multiple sources as well, etc. Statement of Work is just as important in this as in any contracting. I agree that the individual Max contacted may be thinking about one type of job, while I may be thinking another.

Back to Max.
I'm not clear on exactly what the contractor was quoting you for. Perhaps he isn't either. Perhaps even, you may not be quite clear on what needs to be done. So perhaps it would pay to start at the beginning, with a list of your equipment, and what state of assembly (or not) it's in now.


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## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

glaufman said:


> Again, not to delve on this, but Leonard, I did qualify that with video calibration only, and rates based on what has to be done. Multiple inputs shold get more money, multiple sources as well, etc. Statement of Work is just as important in this as in any contracting. I agree that the individual Max contacted may be thinking about one type of job, while I may be thinking another.
> 
> Back to Max.
> I'm not clear on exactly what the contractor was quoting you for. Perhaps he isn't either. Perhaps even, you may not be quite clear on what needs to be done. So perhaps it would pay to start at the beginning, with a list of your equipment, and what state of assembly (or not) it's in now.


Gents,
I appreciate the lively debate. And I agree with a free market capitalistic system where prices are set by the market. I made two mistakes as I sent the original e-mail from the contractor which was brought up more than once by you guys....I never told him what I had, what I wanted or what I needed. I live in a pricey town (but on the poor side of it). He said he did some really nice set ups here and my thought is that he was referring to a complete install. Also, I should have factored in that my knowledge of this industry is virtually zero. 
The bottom line is...that I am a simple and frugal guy. I spent $1k on the SVS surround system, $1500 on the 1080p projector, $1k on the receiver etc. Not a lot of dough. There is no in wall speaker or wiring. I just need to mount the speakers and run wire in the open faced crown molding. I am confident that I can actually run all the wire and set it all up. I thought I just needed someone to come in for a few hours and calibrate the projector and audio system..... And now the remote (unless I get a harmony which is what I am likely to do). I didn't realize remotes were so difficult, timely and expensive (as someone said). So in fairness to the guy who emailed me, he did not quote me anything. He just gave me an hourly rate and said it take a few days. But he had no knowledge of what I have or where I was in the project
Given what I need (or think what I need) which is just the calibration is it ok to think that it'll only take a few hours to a full day at max?
Happy Bird day to you all.


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## lcaillo (May 2, 2006)

It depends on the products and the degree of detail you want done. You have to be specific and talk to the people potentially doing the work. If you get everything installed right, and there is nothing unusual, and the products are items that the calibrator is familiar with, it likely won't take that long. There are just too many variables to say. Details matter.


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## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

eugovector said:


> The control system is adding the majority of the cost (if included, otherwise add $1k+). Trade that for a harmony remote, and you should find the quote more palatable.
> 
> Which harmony do you recommend? I think I rf as the components will be in a control room.
> I can buy an RF adapter if the one you recommend doesn't have rf, right?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

You can find all the Harmony Remotes here: http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/remotes/universal_remotes/

The 1100 is RF compatible, but I'm not a fan of tablet style remotes. They seem cool at first, but having to look at your remote every time you want to execute a basic function is a pain, they are awkward to hold, and if you forget to seat it in the charger one night, it may be dead by the next. Great for impressing friends, great for being easy to use, but poor marks for actual usefulness.

You can buy RF extenders for the Harmonys.


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## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

eugovector said:


> You can find all the Harmony Remotes here: http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/remotes/universal_remotes/
> 
> The 1100 is RF compatible, but I'm not a fan of tablet style remotes. They seem cool at first, but having to look at your remote every time you want to execute a basic function is a pain, they are awkward to hold, and if you forget to seat it in the charger one night, it may be dead by the next. Great for impressing friends, great for being easy to use, but poor marks for actual usefulness.
> 
> You can buy RF extenders for the Harmonys.



I agree with what you said re: the tablet. 
Why wouldn't I go with something functional and inexpensive like this?:

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/RFS200-PowerPak-Bundle-MasterControl-PowerBlaster/dp/B000FL9E6U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1259955372&sr=1-1[/ame]


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

You certainly can, but the Harmony series is much easier to program because you do it on your computer with actual model numbers, not hunting through code sheets. They also offer more flexibility in programming macro "activities" and re-mapping keys, but you are right, they also cost more.


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

The Harmony 900 alsodoes RF, and comes with 4 IR blasters for the same price as the 1100.


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## selden (Nov 15, 2009)

Getting back to the audio and video calibration, you might want to consider getting one of the HT calibration DVDs, like the one from Avia. (They're readily available at your local video disc emporium -- I saw one in our local Barnes and Noble yesterday.) They're a lot cheaper than $85 and step you through the whole procedure. 

Granted, the result won't be "THX certified", but you'll learn how it's done and won't feel so bad when you decide you really want the display and sound configured differently.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Or start with the THX Optimizer found on a disc you probably already own, like Monsters Inc or Pirates of the Caribbean.


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## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

selden said:


> Getting back to the audio and video calibration, you might want to consider getting one of the HT calibration DVDs, like the one from Avia. (They're readily available at your local video disc emporium -- I saw one in our local Barnes and Noble yesterday.) They're a lot cheaper than $85 and step you through the whole procedure.
> 
> Granted, the result won't be "THX certified", but you'll learn how it's done and won't feel so bad when you decide you really want the display and sound configured differently.



Thanks Selden.
I found a THX certified guy who came to the house and seemed like a great guy. I am having him do the work. Many thanks


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

16-0 said:


> Thanks Selden.
> I found a THX certified guy who came to the house and seemed like a great guy. I am having him do the work. Many thanks


Glad you found someone you're confident in! Let us know how happy you are with the results!


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## 16-0 (Dec 31, 2007)

16-0 said:


> Thanks Selden.
> I found a THX certified guy who came to the house and seemed like a great guy. I am having him do the work. Many thanks



Pics forthcoming soon enough

Thanks

BTW, if anyone has ever thought of doing leopard print carpet in a HT room.....but wasn't sure... let me give you some advice.....DO IT.... It looks wicked cool


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## glaufman (Nov 25, 2007)

Now I GOTTA see the pix :rofl:


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