# Shopping for amps



## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Ok guys, I've been hit with upgraditis. This has been spurred by the recent events at Sonnies. Mains are 92db, center is 91db, surrounds are 89db. My avr, Onkyo txnr-808 is rated at 135 x 7(2ch driven). It's no mono block, but for an avr, it's pretty beast, and seems like it never runs out of gas. But, I keep reading about the benefits of a real amp, and even at moderate levels, how much presence they can add.(among other things). My budget is basically whatever I can eBay some of my old stuff for. I think I can do an adcom gfa 555 for about 400 to the door, or an EMO xpa-3 for about 600. On looks alone, the EMO wins hands down, but it's gonna be more. The adcom isn't the only option B, but it keeps comin around. I've read countless great things about both. What say you?


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

The Emo is good looking for sure so if it will be out in the open then that would be a good choice. Have you thought about a pro amp? You can get more power for the money. If the amp will be close to you then the fan noise on the pro's could be an issue.


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## tonyvdb (Sep 5, 2007)

A two channel amp would be plenty. The 808 has a beefy enough PS that it would have no issues driving the rest. The Emotiva amps are hard to beat.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

I found 3 like new Marantz ma-700 mono blocks and got them for $200ish each they have worked out fine if you find a deal I'd go with a three channel amp if your center can keep up with your mains. I'm not sure I hear a difference with the amps and had no complaints before adding them I always liked them so I added them! I wouldn't mind getting a Marantz AVR except I'm not a fan of the porthole.


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## JBrax (Oct 13, 2011)

I'm feeling ya Willis! This whole amp discussion has me wanting to add one as well. I've been down this road before and always seem to talk myself out of it. I really don't know that I'd be gaining much in return as my speakers (rf-82 II, rc-64 II) are very efficient and my AVR (Onkyo 809) is pretty beefy in the power department. When I get upgradeitis I'm all over the place with what I want to do. I've often considered speakers most notably rf-7 II's, an amp, a separate 2 channel rig, or even treating my room. The problem with treating the room is mine is a living room setup and I just don't know about altering the aesthetics of the room.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

B- one said:


> I wouldn't mind getting a Marantz AVR except I'm not a fan of the porthole.


A matter of taste of course, but I really loved the porthole look on my AVR-7005.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

tcarcio said:


> The Emo is good looking for sure so if it will be out in the open then that would be a good choice. Have you thought about a pro amp? You can get more power for the money. If the amp will be close to you then the fan noise on the pro's could be an issue.


 thanks TC. I haven't thought too much about pro amps, but will look closely. The emo's are pretty sharp.


tonyvdb said:


> A two channel amp would be plenty. The 808 has a beefy enough PS that it would have no issues driving the rest. The Emotiva amps are hard to beat.


 that was my initial idea. As a drummer (like TC!), those transients I find critical to realistic presentation. This is something I'm hoping to address. Not that I feel my system is lacking particularly, but everyone swears by external, so... Emotiva has always appealed to me. Especially for value.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

B- one said:


> I found 3 like new Marantz ma-700 mono blocks and got them for $200ish each they have worked out fine if you find a deal I'd go with a three channel amp if your center can keep up with your mains. I'm not sure I hear a difference with the amps and had no complaints before adding them I always liked them so I added them! I wouldn't mind getting a Marantz AVR except I'm not a fan of the porthole.


 I think I remember you posting them when they arrived. I like those too. My center is rated about 100 watts less than my mains, so I think(initially) ill drive it with the avr. Fwiw, I like the porthole, but find it impractical. Just to be clear, the "sound" was the same? How bout when the wick is up?


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

JBrax said:


> I'm feeling ya!
> The problem with treating the room is mine is a living room setup and I just don't know about altering the aesthetics of the room.


 It's gotta be those stupid blue lights!!! Yeah, this is a family room as well. Otherwise I might start with treatments. Tough row to hoe here.


Peter Loeser said:


> A matter of taste of course, but I really loved the porthole look on my AVR-7005.


 My friend has a 7005, and loves it. I found it for him at A4L, and set it up. Looks beautiful. I also dig the porthole, for looks. I find its usefulness lacking however. Especially at a distance.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

tcarcio said:


> The Emo is good looking for sure so if it will be out in the open then that would be a good choice. Have you thought about a pro amp? You can get more power for the money. If the amp will be close to you then the fan noise on the pro's could be an issue.


My Yamaha Pro amps are dead quiet.:T


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Brandon, there are 5 listed on fleabay right now. 200 ea. just in case you need more. Just sayin


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> My friend has a 7005, and loves it. I found it for him at A4L, and set it up. Looks beautiful. I also dig the porthole, for looks. I find its usefulness lacking however. Especially at a distance.


Oh totally. It's unreadable past about 5 feet.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Peter Loeser said:


> Oh totally. It's unreadable past about 5 feet.


 lol. Beautiful, but useless.


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## tcarcio (Jun 27, 2007)

ellisr63 said:


> My Yamaha Pro amps are dead quiet.:T


Allot of the pro amps I have owned were quiet buy there are some that really make some noise especially when you push them. The QSC GX-5 I run my mains on is noisy but I have my amps in a closet in a seperate room so it is not an issue for me.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

ellisr63 said:


> My Yamaha Pro amps are dead quiet.:T


Curious - what made you choose the Yamaha amps?


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

Peter Loeser said:


> Curious - what made you choose the Yamaha amps?


 I used to have Yamaha equipment and loved them.. Later on I tried Pro amps (Crown, and QSC), but the fans were to noisy. I decided to try the Yamaha ro amps as I had heard the amps were dead quiet. I purchased 3 of them, and I have never heard a fan make any noise at all. :T:T


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Not bashing Carver amps, they can sound great. My personal experience with thermal shutdown under ....errr "fire"... has often been been experienced by others. It was quite a while ago (I believe the Sunfire amp of yore), so don't quote me on it. Just something to watch out for in case you head that direction.


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

ellisr63 said:


> I used to have Yamaha equipment and loved them.. Later on I tried Pro amps (Crown, and QSC), but the fans were to noisy. I decided to try the Yamaha ro amps as I had heard the amps were dead quiet. I purchased 3 of them, and I have never heard a fan make any noise at all. :T:T


Cool. I have always generally been a fan of Yamaha too, but don't see their pro amps mentioned much in the HT forums.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> Brandon, there are 5 listed on fleabay right now. 200 ea. just in case you need more. Just sayin


I don't want anymore they wouldn't be as nice as the ones I found! Now a new sub or two maybe happening in the future!!:devil: we never usally crank the system to much as it's just to loud our space is roughly 12 by 16 so it's pretty easy to make it uncomfortable or as I like to call it time to go home for guests who can't handle it.:gulp: So I admit I can't really notice a difference, like klipsch are hard speakers to drive.


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## TheHills44060 (May 15, 2014)

Big fan of the Adcom. Very reliable, sounds good and can really be abused without falling apart. The pro amp route may be interesting especially for the price savings but I think you'd have to experiment around with some different options to see what you like.

I wouldn't touch an Emotiva with a 10 foot pole. You'd much better off sticking with the Onkyyo at that point.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

B- one said:


> I don't want anymore they wouldn't be as nice as the ones I found! Now a new sub or two maybe happening in the future!!:devil: we never usally crank the system to much as it's just to loud our space is roughly 12 by 16 so it's pretty easy to make it uncomfortable or as I like to call it time to go home for guests who can't handle it.:gulp: So I admit I can't really notice a difference, like klipsch are hard speakers to drive.


 sounds like in your case a sub would be a better investment. I just thought it was funny, I did a search, and found a set of 5 right away.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

TheHills44060 said:


> Big fan of the Adcom. Very reliable, sounds good and can really be abused without falling apart.
> I wouldn't touch an Emotiva with a 10 foot pole. You'd much better off sticking with the Onkyyo at that point.


 I've seen lots of good press for the adcom, and bench performance looked great. I've also seen others say run from emotiva. Wondering your thoughts on that.


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## NBPk402 (Feb 21, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> I've seen lots of good press for the adcom, and bench performance looked great. I've also seen others say run from emotiva. Wondering your thoughts on that.


I used to have Adcom years ago and i thought it was very well built for the money and would recommend it to anyone looking for a good inexpensive amp. :T


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## Peter Loeser (Aug 11, 2012)

willis7469 said:


> I've seen lots of good press for the adcom, and bench performance looked great. I've also seen others say run from emotiva. Wondering your thoughts on that.


While I realize there are lots of Emotiva fanboys out there I have yet to see more than a few isolated negative reviews regarding their amps. I know they've had some issues with their processors. I owned a USP-1 for a while and didn't fall in love with it, but their amps seem like the real deal based on almost everything I've read.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

I'll sell you my Krell......


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Thanks Ron, it's still on my list. I've checked out your Yamaha's too. 
Peter, I have seen far more people in EMO 's corner, than not, but there's some who are adamant. I wonder why. To be clear, the last thing I want is a flame war, but I'd be interested in learning why the distain.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Talley said:


> I'll sell you my Krell......


 Thanx Talley. In an earlier point of my life,I'd have done it just to try it out. Things have turned a little. Here nor there. I would be curious to experiment. My onkyo is rated at 135 per ch(2ch driven) your krell is 125. My mains are 92db. I know amps never bench out at spec, but one of the reasons I chose the 808 was because of its bench performance. Only guessing the krell benched closer to its mark. Just sayin, it'd be a fun experiment.


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> Thanx Talley. In an earlier point of my life,I'd have done it just to try it out. Things have turned a little. Here nor there. I would be curious to experiment. My onkyo is rated at 135 per ch(2ch driven) your krell is 125. My mains are 92db. I know amps never bench out at spec, but one of the reasons I chose the 808 was because of its bench performance. Only guessing the krell benched closer to its mark. Just sayin, it'd be a fun experiment.


I love testing. According to the sound and vision test from 2002 the krell pushed two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 140.4 watts and 1% distortion at 161.3 watt and With six channels driven into 8-ohm loads, the amp reaches 0.1% distortion at 105.7 watts and 1% distortion at 136.9 watts.

I'd say with my 5 channels I'm still hoving around the 125 watts but I bet you anything there is distortion that I'm just too dumb to hear which is why I want to try 400w/channel and listen to an intense movie again and see whats up.


http://www.soundandvision.com/content/krell-showcase-prepro-and-7-amplifier-ht-labs-measures


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

Talley said:


> I'd say with my 5 channels I'm still hoving around the 125 watts but I bet you anything there is distortion that I'm just too dumb to hear which is why I want to try 400w/channel and listen to an intense movie again and see whats up.


You're not dumb, just subconsciously disappointed and/or have upgrade-itis. Discussions about enough amp power and wants vs. needs raise interesting questions and ideas about measured and perceived performance. Those discussions lead into territories of:
Amp differences only show up when driven into distortion
Some people like to listen at or near distortion thresholds
Level-matched blind listening tests don't take long-term effects into account

I would like to add that level-matching has its merits during testing, because humans perceive louder as better. But for casual enjoyment, I imagine many enthusiasts overdrive their amps. Room modes or poor amp/speaker performance can muddy midrange and bass and create frequency suckouts that cause listeners to crank it up in an attempt to hear more detail. But I digress.

*Getting back to amp comparisons,* I was curious to see if a friend's Krell would give me more bass. Krells are known for that, and his amp had it in spades (in his room and system). So I swapped out my McCormack DNA-1 Deluxe amp (pre-monoblock conversion) for his Krell KSA-200S. That DNA-1 was rated at 150W into 8ohms, 300W into 4ohms, and 530W into 2ohms. The Krell was rated at 200W into 8, 400W into 4, and 800W into 2. Both amps were rated at 50A peak output current. (full measurements here and here). From a Stereophile review: "These measurements indicate that the DNA-1 has an excellent ability to deliver current to low-impedance loads. While not in Krell territory in this regard, the Deluxe's ability to increase its output power as the impedance drops is unusually good for an amplifier in this price range. (A Krell will run all day long driving both channels at full power into half an ohm.)"

I think my speakers' efficiency rating of only 86dB taxed both amps in the bass department, but the Krell did do a better job in tightening it up. Other than that, I had a hard time during informal tests in telling the difference between the two. In the end, I preferred the DNA-1 (maybe because of its soft-clipping behavior). "The amplifier's clipping behavior is unusual in that it soft-clips before the distortion shoots up. The sharp 'knee' in the distortion traces typical of solid-state amplifiers is absent."


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## Lumen (May 17, 2014)

willis7469 said:


> *I know amps never bench out at spec*, but one of the reasons I chose the 808 was because of its bench performance. Only guessing the krell benched closer to its mark. Just sayin, it'd be a fun experiment.


Exactly! Some are conservatively rated while others are rated with marketing hype. On the bench and in the real world are where the truth in performance lie. Consider any particular speaker's frequency-dependant impedance. Then couple that with any particular amp's ability to increase power into lower loads (ideally double power into each halving of load). Some amps will fall far short of the ideal. Good for them that they'll sound the same as any other amp when operated within their design parameters. For demanding applications though, pick something robust.

Amps I've heard and would recommend:
Adcom GFA-555 (some midrange "glare" in my system)
Aragon 4004 MkII (incredible drum solos)
Krell KSA-200S (what's not to like)


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## Talley (Dec 8, 2010)

BlueRockinLou said:


> Exactly! Some are conservatively rated while others are rated with marketing hype. On the bench and in the real world are where the truth in performance lie. Consider any particular speaker's frequency-dependant impedance. Then couple that with any particular amp's ability to increase power into lower loads (ideally double power into each halving of load). Some amps will fall far short of the ideal. Good for them that they'll sound the same as any other amp when operated within their design parameters. For demanding applications though, pick something robust.
> 
> Amps I've heard and would recommend:
> Adcom GFA-555 (some midrange "glare" in my system)
> ...


Well and this is what has my mind in a weird spot. Sound and vision tested the Krell showcase 7 and with 6 channels driven with whatever standard 1khz test they do was 108watts at .1% and 136w at 1% with 6 channels driven in 8ohms and it was essentially double with 4 ohms.

Since my mains are rated 300w I was just curious of something like an XPR-5 thats rated 400w each channel driven and see if that makes a difference.

It may be a thing where I'm driving into distortion so the larger amp be better.


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## sulliyan80 (Apr 16, 2015)

thanks for info


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## Savjac (Apr 17, 2008)

Talley said:


> Well and this is what has my mind in a weird spot. Sound and vision tested the Krell showcase 7 and with 6 channels driven with whatever standard 1khz test they do was 108watts at .1% and 136w at 1% with 6 channels driven in 8ohms and it was essentially double with 4 ohms.
> 
> Since my mains are rated 300w I was just curious of something like an XPR-5 thats rated 400w each channel driven and see if that makes a difference.
> 
> It may be a thing where I'm driving into distortion so the larger amp be better.


I am sure you are aware that speaker ratings and amp ratings are not even similar. You can run many speakers way over their quoted limits as long as the amp runs clean. However, put a smaller amp in there that runs into clipping and pop, no speaker irrespective of power rating. 
I would not worry about your amp, it is fine and at any sane listening level it should do the job. The more powerful basic amps will give a bit more headroom, for movies like Interstellar and should be able to handle musical swells better, but from a power perspective, I think youre ok. Hate to see you sell off something only to miss it in a month.


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## B- one (Jan 13, 2013)

Just buy some off Sonnie I'm sure he will offer a great muliti amp discount! The you would have one of or the coolest equipment rack in the Shack universe!:rofl:


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