# 12x12 room back snd side surround placement



## proverbs (Apr 7, 2013)

I have a 121x12 room with 3 recliners going accords the back of the room . Back of the recliners are 14" from the back wall.and outside armrests 6" from side walls . 


Where should I mount the back and side bipole/dipole speakers ? 

Home theater use only


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

That close to the back wall, better to stick to a 5.1-speaker set-up rather than try to shoe-horn a 7.1 layout (not enough space behind you to give meaningful separation between the side and rear speakers). 

Instead, consider using one pair of speakers for heights.


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## proverbs (Apr 7, 2013)

Thank you for your response , I understand that the room is not the ideal size for a 7.1 setup . I had the system in a 15x17. Room running a 9.2 system with Dsx sides in stead of heights previouly . I just now want to make the best use of this system knowing that it is not ideal room sizes I am open to wall or ceiling use to make use of all 9 speakers .


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

Understood. Just pointing out that a good 5.1 set-up would be better than a poor 7.1 layout, especially when the seating is at/near the back wall. I would use the remaining speakers for wides and heights. Good luck.


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

agree with the above advice. in a room that small I'd use 5.1 ... the rear speakers will be too cramped and create some weird sounds that overlap with your side surrounds in that small of a space. more isn't always better in some situations


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## proverbs (Apr 7, 2013)

Yes my friend , you are probably right . If I was giving somebody else advice on their system . I would have said the same thing . Lol . But here I am stubborn and he'll bent on making it work . 
But thank you for your response and the Dsx wides and heights are already in the plans . 

How far apart do you suggest I put my tower speakers ? 

How forward and wide 
should I put my wides from my towers ? I have some concerns with a smaller room


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

proverbs said:


> How far apart do you suggest I put my tower speakers ?


For smoother bass that is consistent across your 3 recliners, I would put the towers 8 feet apart symmetrically in the room.


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## proverbs (Apr 7, 2013)

sdurani said:


> For smoother bass that is consistent across your 3 recliners, I would put the towers 8 feet apart symmetrically in the room.



Sounds great thank you


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

proverbs said:


> I have a 121x12 room with 3 recliners going accords the back of the room . Back of the recliners are 14" from the back wall.and outside armrests 6" from side walls .
> 
> 
> Where should I mount the back and side bipole/dipole speakers ?
> ...


Though the room is small , with quality equipment and the correct sized speakers you can still achieve really good sound movement . (special effects) you do realize there's not a lot movies encoded in 7.1 are most are animated. it's all about the depth and the delay and the movement of the sound in **movies** In a 7.1 set up the side speakers should be at ear level in height directly in line to the primary sitting area. the rears i would do at the same height and approx 3' out of each corner. I highly suggest using inwalls for the space savings and don't go too large on size as they could become overwhelming . as for the front sound stage it depends on how large your screen is . i like to place the front right and left just off the screen in a large projection set up, angled toward the primary listening area. or with a small screen such as a 50" screen approx 30" from the screen on each side


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## proverbs (Apr 7, 2013)

thank you for your input . I have a 58" samsung plasma wall mounted. I agree with your input on the towers being placed about 24 to 30" on either side of the TV toed in . 

Any suggestions for placement on the side DSX speaker placement ?
I am planning on either using a smaller tower or bookshelf speaker for Dsx wides place on the side walls about 2-3 ft away from the towers . The dipole /bipoles I am going to use for the side and rear surrounds .Since direct radiating speakers in up right position are recommended for Dsx wides or heights . 

I was planning on placing my rear and side surround dipoles about 2 -3 ft above the listeners ear height to hopefully make the sound be less direct and fill the area around and above the listener . 

I am aware of that very few movies are actual 7.1 format movie audio ( transformers 3 ) . I do Perfer to set my receiver to a 7.1 setting changing the movies audio format from 5.1 to 7.1 simulated audio format . 

Thank you for your input .


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

proverbs said:


> thank you for your input . I have a 58" samsung plasma wall mounted. I agree with your input on the towers being placed about 24 to 30" on either side of the TV toed in .
> 
> Any suggestions for placement on the side DSX speaker placement ?
> I am planning on either using a smaller tower or bookshelf speaker for Dsx wides place on the side walls about 2-3 ft away from the towers . The dipole /bipoles I am going to use for the side and rear surrounds .Since direct radiating speakers in up right position are recommended for Dsx wides or heights .
> ...


If using the front wides i would move the front towers closer to the screen than i previously mentioned and then mount the wides at ear height almost in the corners


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

mandtra said:


> you do realize the only real movies encoded in 7.1 are usually animated movies right?


Don't know what you mean by "real movies", but Super 8, Fright Night, Warrior, Real Steel, Hugo, Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol, War Horse, John Carter, Hunger Games, Prometheus, Lincoln, Life of Pi, Hobbit, Jack Reacher, Les Miserables, Good Day to Die Hard, Oz The Great & Powerful, Oblivion, Iron Man 3, Star Trek Into Darkness, The Heat, Lone Ranger, Pacific Rim, Percy Jackson, Gravity, Ender's Game, plus many more were released theatrically with a 7.1 mix, and none of them are animated.


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## proverbs (Apr 7, 2013)

mandtra said:


> If using the front wides i would move the front towers closer to the screen than i previously mentioned and then mount the wides at ear height almost in the corners


That's for the input, I will that setup a try


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## proverbs (Apr 7, 2013)

sdurani said:


> Don't know what you mean by "real movies", but Super 8, Fright Night, Warrior, Real Steel, Hugo, Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol, War Horse, John Carter, Hunger Games, Prometheus, Lincoln, Life of Pi, Hobbit, Jack Reacher, Les Miserables, Good Day to Die Hard, Oz The Great & Powerful, Oblivion, Iron Man 3, Star Trek Into Darkness, The Heat, Lone Ranger, Pacific Rim, Percy Jackson, Gravity, Ender's Game, plus many more were released theatrically with a 7.1 mix, and none of them are animated.


Wow , that is a of a list . I didn't know their were that many 7.1 moves made . 

Thanks for list


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## mandtra (Aug 30, 2010)

sdurani said:


> Don't know what you mean by "real movies", but Super 8, Fright Night, Warrior, Real Steel, Hugo, Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol, War Horse, John Carter, Hunger Games, Prometheus, Lincoln, Life of Pi, Hobbit, Jack Reacher, Les Miserables, Good Day to Die Hard, Oz The Great & Powerful, Oblivion, Iron Man 3, Star Trek Into Darkness, The Heat, Lone Ranger, Pacific Rim, Percy Jackson, Gravity, Ender's Game, plus many more were released theatrically with a 7.1 mix, and none of them are animated.



Wow i guess they have been putting out a lot more in 7.1 in the last 18months or so . I will have to spend more time reading the back of the bluray cases


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## proverbs (Apr 7, 2013)

proverbs said:


> That's for the input, I will that setup a try



I must of missed the part about mounting the Dsx wides in the corners . 

I agree with moving the two towers closer together .

But I thought that DSX wides provide a better side to side effect when they are placed close to the side walls, but also placed further up the side walls past the towers . Placing the DSX wides behind the towers off to the side in the corners would takes away from that side to side effect with sound going behind the towers rather then going up the side walls and giving your ears that wider sense of sound traveling up the side walls . Making it seem as if you are in a bigger room . 

Maybe I am wrong


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

mandtra said:


> Wow i guess they have been putting out a lot more in 7.1 in the last 18months or so.


I think one of the first 3 Blu-rays released back in 2006 had a 7.1 soundtrack. So discrete 7.1 has been with us for the last 8 years. However, back then, 5.1 movies were being re-mixed to 7.1 for home video release. 

In 2010, 'Toy Story 3' arrived in theatres with a 7.1 soundtrack. Suddenly there were lots of movies that didn't need re-mixing for home video. Last I checked, there were around 900 titles on Blu-ray with 7.1 tracks, including many of the big blockbusters that are popular on home video. Plenty to choose from.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

sdurani said:


> That close to the back wall, better to stick to a 5.1-speaker set-up rather than try to shoe-horn a 7.1 layout (not enough space behind you to give meaningful separation between the side and rear speakers). Instead, consider using one pair of speakers for heights.


+1 I would say height channels would be better than wides in this application also. It seems that 12' isn't that wide, and all the extra coloration from 2nd, 3rd, order side reflections etc. might just cause an imaging mess. Let your mains breath alone. Create the extra dimension with height. I know brains are wired to "hear" horizontally, but are also good at recognizing oddities. Could make for a distracting presentation. That's also why I think that "making the best use of this system" would be done with 5.1(2). You will have enough trouble with room modes being in a perfectly square room. If you feel like you won't be satisfied until all channels are used, then I would definitely do in walls for the back. By the time you put spkrs on mounts, your 14" behind the couch will shrink quickly. That will also put all your surrounds on almost the same plane, and panning would likely suffer like mike, and sdurani said. I would also suggest getting all 4 surrounds higher than earlier suggested, to around 6' off the floor. 
That's just my 2 bits, thinking of how I would do my own space of that size. Good luck, have fun!


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

willis7469 said:


> You will have enough trouble with room modes being in a perfectly square room.


That's why I suggested he place his L/R speakers 2' in from the side walls. Combined with the centre speaker and sub, both at the midpoint of room width, it should reduce his room's first 5 width modes (47Hz, 94Hz, 141Hz, 188Hz, 235Hz). This will smoothen the response and improve consistency across his seating area. 

Since all three of his seats are the same distance from the back wall, whatever problems result from the length modes will be the same in all three seats. If the room correction in his AV receiver sees the same peaks in all the seats, it should make it easier to fix.


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## proverbs (Apr 7, 2013)

willis7469 said:


> +1 I would say height channels would be better than wides in this application also. It seems that 12' isn't that wide, and all the extra coloration from 2nd, 3rd, order side reflections etc. might just cause an imaging mess. Let your mains breath alone. Create the extra dimension with height. I know brains are wired to "hear" horizontally, but are also good at recognizing oddities. Could make for a distracting presentation. That's also why I think that "making the best use of this system" would be done with 5.1(2). You will have enough trouble with room modes being in a perfectly square room. If you feel like you won't be satisfied until all channels are used, then I would definitely do in walls for the back. By the time you put spkrs on mounts, your 14" behind the couch will shrink quickly. That will also put all your surrounds on almost the same plane, and panning would likely suffer like mike, and sdurani said. I would also suggest getting all 4 surrounds higher than earlier suggested, to around 6' off the floor. That's just my 2 bits, thinking of how I would do my own space of that size. Good luck, have fun!



Thank you for all the advice , I was kinda thinking the same thing with the wides . But I might give it a try with some movies like transformers 2 has a lot of side to side action . 

heights I am definitely going to do . I read putting them close to the ceiling is recommended . 
Do you think 12" is to close yo the ceiling ? 

I plan on mounting the surrounds about 6ft . About 3 ft above the listeners and at least 2ft down from the ceiling 

Thanks for the input


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

proverbs said:


> Thank you for all the advice , I was kinda thinking the same thing with the wides . But I might give it a try with some movies like transformers 2 has a lot of side to side action . heights I am definitely going to do . I read putting them close to the ceiling is recommended . Do you think 12" is to close yo the ceiling ? I plan on mounting the surrounds about 6ft . About 3 ft above the listeners and at least 2ft down from the ceiling Thanks for the input


I think it surely would be worth trying the wides, especially with something busy to highlight their interaction(good or bad). I still think height is the way to go here, but I always think experimenting is good. I'd also say 12" below ceiling would be good. The only thing I'd wonder about is coloration, but the information is mostly ambient anyway, so it might help. My Onkyo manual says at least 3.3' above the mains, and as high as possible. (Clear as mud!) So yeah, 12" down, and just a little outside the mains. I really kinda want to try this too, but my 7.2 uses the rr surrounds instead. I have about 6' behind my LP.


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## sdurani (Oct 28, 2010)

I would choose heights over wides. Your 5 speakers will provide a nice 2D ring of sound around you. A pair of wides can make that ring a little more seamless. But a pair of height speakers will turn it into a 3D bubble of sound. More immersive. 

Instead of follow the usual suggestion of putting the heights above the L/R speakers, I would put the heights between the fronts and sides, mounted as high up as possible. That will give the impression of sounds coming from above, rather than merely a taller front soundstage.


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## proverbs (Apr 7, 2013)

Hello, 

Sorry for the delay , I had to finish building my wall and installing the pocket door to enclose my home theater room. Paint , ceiling fan , molding and such . Hang the speakers , run wires cables , you get the idea . 

Heights in front comers about 9" down from ceiling . pointed down about 18" above listeners heads at a 60 degree angle pointed to center . They blend nicely with center speaker being mounted above TV for sound effects and overall sound . The heights produces a low volume sound for movies back ground music and other back sound effects during a movie. It fills in the sound I never noticed missing . Star Trek music in the movie is more pronounced and shoots off the screen smoothly and effortlessly . While not taking away from the dialog or action . While also sounding Natual in all other parts of movies and sitcoms 

Center mounted just above my wall mounted 58" samsung about 21" from ceiling . Pointed down slightly about 24" over listeners heads. The dialog sounds great and sound effects blend nice with mains and heights . I was pleasantly surprised 

Mains Are spaced about 8.5 ft apart and about 12" forward from wall , 2 1/2 ft from outside walls and are powerhouses that I think make the center speaker being mounted 2ft high then them work . 

Wides are placed 3ft forward from front wall and about 4" from side wall are angled in toward the listeners . This puts them a little more then 2.5 ft 
Away from the mains in about a 45 degree forward angle . The wides bring it all it all . together . It wides the sound coverage and brings it forward creating a great front stage 
Presence as the sound curves around the room and blending with the rear side surround dipoles and the back bipoles . In robo cop last night his motorcycle raced from the back bipoles to the right surround then across the screen via the rt wide , rt main , center then moved forward and away naturally blended with front mains , center and maybe the heights . Wow their was several scenes that motorcycle sound awesome . A lot like the dark knight screens in his various vehicles darting around town . Transformers side to side action, helicopters going by , machine guns ect ect . Yes , even the fast and furious side to side , Front to back cars racing around .

The side surrounds are mounted at 68" and the surround sound effects sound just amazing . A huge difference from being on 36 speaker stands 
At head level about 3ft away . I say my brothers , get those dipole surround speakers up up the walls about 3 ft above the listeners heads . It sound do much more natural . You can tell where the speaker is as much . You just hear a natural surround sound as the side surrounds blend with yen back surround bipoles and finish that sound circle in the middle of my not so square room . I have found that the rear side surround placement is important to the front wides and heights as they create that additional surround sound coverage with realism . 

The back bipoles surrounds at 68" on the back wall spaced about even with the mains . It brings the sound to life when it's going forward and back or when a car , motorcycle , helicopter or other sound effect come from behind . I have found that being in a bipole mode is best from the rear . Especially in such a small room as mine 11.5 deep and 13.5 wide . I haven't experienced any weird sounds or unnatural sounding sound effects . They just simply complete my circle of sound in a square room . 

Peace out my ht brothers and many thanks as I enter my new minidsp frustrations


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## Mike Edwards (Mar 10, 2011)

sounds like you got it covered


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## proverbs (Apr 7, 2013)

Hello mike , 

I think it's about the best I can do with this size room . Thank God for audessey room correction to make up for my want to run so many speakers . After installing all the speakers . I did hesitantly try running 5.3 , 7.3 , 9.3 11.3 with Audessey room correction . Just to make sure I didn't end up with in funny sounds or weird sounding sound effects from running to many speakers . I Tested it with Some sitcoms and transformers revenge of the fallen . It has a ton of scenes in the first 15 minutes to test all aspects of home theater. From side to side action over head , it brings the dsx wides height and your surrounds speaker to life. 

Trying to integrate a Minidsp for the subwoofers . I got a bad cable in the mix or problem with the minidsp . I can't get sound to pass through it during running rew v5 .


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