# Need Some Advice on My Living Room



## Bones81 (Jun 24, 2012)

So I'd like to add surround sound to my living room. Unfortunately, the space is less than ideal for this as you can see from the pictures below. The TV had to go above the fireplace as I really didn't have any other place to put it. I've fixed up the shelf since I took these pictures, so I really don't feel like gutting it to put the TV there. I probably don't have another other option for the center speaker besided being on the mantle, so I'll probably wind up having to raise the TV even higher so the speaker doesn't block the view. 

     

I've done a lot of reading on the forums but wanted to get an idea of what you all would suggest. I'm looking to spend no more than $3,000 all in for a receiver and speakers/sub. It will be used mostly for movies but I do plan to listen to music on it on a regular basis. I'll probably go with a 5 speaker system as I don't know if I could make a 7 speaker system work in that space. I'll probably also look to laydown some large area rugs at some point to help with sound quality. 

For a receiver, I've read lots of good things about Onkyo, so I'll probably go with the most cost effective model to drive the speakers and sub I decide to go with. 

The speakers are where I need the most help. I'm more inclined to go with floorstanding over bookshelf sized ones but given the small amount of space I have one each side of the sectional, I'm thinking I might have to get smaller speakers on stands in order not to be obstructed by the sectional. 

For the subwoofer, given how open the space is and the fact there is no carpet, I'm concerned about the bass being too boomy. Any recomendations on a specific subwoofer and where to place it would also be welcome. 

I appreciate all advice and suggestions. Thanks!


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

Onkyo is a great brand. Many others to choose from as well. I am well pleased with my Denon gear.

If you are interested in factory refurb gear at significant discounts, Accessories4Less has several models and brands to choose from, including Onkyo. Many folks have had good luck buying from them. I have a Denon 3312 on the way from them. Here is a link:

http://www.accessories4less.com/

Put money into your speakers - that will make more difference than an extra $100 on a receiver. Speaker technology does not change much over time; electronic tech does.


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## Tonto (Jun 30, 2007)

Yes, I see your problem. That floor plan is for interacting with people, not watching TV. My wife learned right away when we were looking at houses that my 1st comment was going to be, *"there is no place for my speakers"*. And I was serious about it. 

For your situation I recommend at least floor standers for the L/R & yes, bookshelves on stands for your surrounds. You might consider not having a center/some recievers can be set to send the center info to the front L/R speakers. It's all about how the center will look on the mantel, it will have to be a small center to go there & a small speaker will not give you the preformace that the floor standers will.

Just my thoughts.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Hello,
You honestly might be better off setting up an HT in a spare Bedroom or any other Room where it could possibly be setup as that Room is going to be a challenge acoustically. Not too mention, I would imagine your Wife would not be crazy about setting up a 5.1 HT in that area.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Bones81 (Jun 24, 2012)

Unfortunately, besides the master bedroom there isn't another room I can set it up in. The good thing is that I don't have a significant other, so it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks in term of aesthetics. Any specific speaker recomendations for this type of space?


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

You have a very nice looking home.
What kind of finish do you want your speakers to have ?
Furniture grade real wood veneer, wood look vinyl, or is plain solid black paint / vinyl OK ?

Any chance the bookcase can go away and the TV be moved to that location, or get rid of some shelves and mount the TV in the bookcase ? Some doors could be added so it would look more like a cabinet when the the TV is not being used.

With your budget you can have whatever style you want, but if you have a specific look it will help get better recomendations.


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## Bones81 (Jun 24, 2012)

The bookcase is permanent and is built into the wall. I've thought about moving some shelves and mounting the tv there along with adding some doors, the only downside to that is that it reduces the visability of the tv. The one good thing about it being over the fireplace is that I can watch TV from the kitchen when I'm cooking and if I have people over to watch sports, everyone on the couch or sitting at the stools by the counter behind it can see the tv. 

As far as the finish of the speakers go, real wood or a real wood look would be optimal to match the floors and the media tower. 

Thanks for the feedback so far.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Tonto said:


> For your situation I recommend at least floor standers for the L/R & yes, bookshelves on stands for your surrounds. You might consider not having a center/some recievers can be set to send the center info to the front L/R speakers. It's all about how the center will look on the mantel, it will have to be a small center to go there & a small speaker will not give you the preformace that the floor standers will.
> 
> Just my thoughts.


I would also go this route. Even if you decided to move the TV higher and place a center speaker on the mantel, you would potentially run into some neck strain / discomfort with having to focus higher. Also, if you decide to get a larger TV, you would then have a limitation of the size of your center.

I would go with a 4.2 set-up here - I believe I have seen it termed as a "phantom center" where the L/R perform the duties of your CC. I would do the L/R to either side of the fireplace and the surrounds on stands. I would suggest two subs as it is a fairly open area (and I love my bass ) going with cylinders to limit the floor space requirement. As far as sub location, I would plan on doing the "sub crawl" to determine best locations.

Given the layout and contour of the space, you will most likely run into some acoustics issues and may have to "live with" a few oddities, but you may be able to treat for some of those......


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## Bones81 (Jun 24, 2012)

Is the "phantom center" feature common on most receivers? For example, if I went with an Onkyo 
TX-NR515, would I be able to do it? I haven't seen is specifially mentioned in the specs of the receivers I've looked at so far. 

I haven't thought about 2 subs but it makes sense given the size and openness of the space. I thought about placing one on the bottom shelf of the bookcase if it will fit, having two, I'm not quite sure where I would place the other one, maybe under the overhanging counter behind the couch. Do you have examples of cylinder subs that you think might work?


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Bones81 said:


> Is the "phantom center" feature common on most receivers? For example, if I went with an Onkyo
> TX-NR515, would I be able to do it? I haven't seen is specifially mentioned in the specs of the receivers I've looked at so far.
> 
> I haven't thought about 2 subs but it makes sense given the size and openness of the space. I thought about placing one on the bottom shelf of the bookcase if it will fit, having two, I'm not quite sure where I would place the other one, maybe under the overhanging counter behind the couch. Do you have examples of cylinder subs that you think might work?


My apologies - the "phantom center" is not a receiver specific option - it is when someone chooses to not use a CC and allow the L/R to take care of CC duties. 

As far as cylinder subs, you can check out SVS for examples - look for the PC subs (C for cylinder / B for box) to get a feel for the size. I can say that I am positive it will not fit anywhere on the bookshelf. However, you more than likely could get one next to it. If you want, give the folks at SVS a call - they have excellent customer support / service.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Bones81 said:


> Is the "phantom center" feature common on most receivers? For example, if I went with an Onkyo
> TX-NR515, would I be able to do it? I haven't seen is specifially mentioned in the specs of the receivers I've looked at so far.
> 
> I haven't thought about 2 subs but it makes sense given the size and openness of the space. I thought about placing one on the bottom shelf of the bookcase if it will fit, having two, I'm not quite sure where I would place the other one, maybe under the overhanging counter behind the couch. Do you have examples of cylinder subs that you think might work?


Hello,
Going with dual subwoofers is a great idea. However, placing one on the bottom shelf of a Bookcase is not. As for an AVR, I would look at least Onkyo's 600 Series. Either last years TX-SR609 or the new TX-NR616. There is a massive increase in power between them as the 600 Series is THX Select2 Plus Certified and to meet the criteria uses the same Amplifier Topology as the 700, 800, 1000, 3000, and 5000 Series. The difference between the 509 and 609 was 3.9 versus 6.3 Amps. With the 515 and 616 the difference is 5.0 versus the same 6.3 so the difference is not quite as big, but given the size of the Room, I would get the most powerful AVR possible.
Cheers,
JJ


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## Bones81 (Jun 24, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback so far. After spending a lot of time looking at various products, I've realized that I'm probably going to exceed my initial budget but that's ok since I'm not in a rush and can spread the purchases out over time. 

On the receivers, I'm actually looking at the Onkyo TX-NR717 and the TX-NR709. The 709 is $100 less and actually saw a review where someone thought it was better than the newer 717 although he didn't specifiy why. Either way, both should be more than sufficent for what I need. The 809 is also a little tempting at that price range as well. 

Of course, I've spent the most time looking at speakers. Some that fit my price range on the floorstanderes are the KEF Q900, Paradigm Monitor 11, EMP E55Ti, and the Aperion Audio Versus Grand Tower. I just need to read reviews now and try to find stores locally that carry them so I can try to hear as many as I can. 

If I go with a cylinder sub, it looks like it will be the PC12-NSD. It's pretty pricey so I'll go with one initially and look to add a second sometime later. 

I haven't had any chance to look at surrounds yet. I'll have to do some more reading to see what people use with the tower speakers I've mentioned above.


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## informel (Jun 21, 2011)

Bones81 said:


> Thanks for the feedback so far. After spending a lot of time looking at various products, I've realized that I'm probably going to exceed my initial budget but that's ok since I'm not in a rush and can spread the purchases out over time.
> 
> On the receivers, I'm actually looking at the Onkyo TX-NR717 and the TX-NR709. The 709 is $100 less and ...


The 709 is what I purchased in January and Audessy does a fantastic job to eq the room.
You already mention that you may have to purchase equipment over time because it will go over your initial budget (first time I hear that:rofl::rofl, the minimum you need is a receiver and the 2 front speakers, if your front speakers are good, there is chance that you will not miss your sub while listening to music, sorry but it will not happen with movies, or maybe you will have enough money fro 1 sub at the beginning.

I know we all want our toys at once:hissyfit:, but going the cheap road will not satify you and you will probably end up spending more money in the long run


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

I agree with the 4.2 option as being the best compromise for your room. Onkyo 709 or 809 are great options, Accessories4Less refurbished is a great way to go. I love my Paradigm Monitor 11 and highly recommend v.6, but I have not heard the Series 7. Also, you have been given great advice to start with 2.0 or 2.1, and you can add rears and 2nd sub later.


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## Onkyo man (Jun 24, 2012)

If I had this kind of space to work with I would go for a bose speaker system powered by an onkyo av amp (tx-nr 5008) I do have an onkyo surround amp which powers celestion speakers the onkyo amp has audessy room correction which will adjust all levels to suit where your sat via a microphone I would place the speakers roughly either side of the tv with the centre above the tv and surrounds one in the corner to the left of the sofa and the other in the corner at the bottom of the stairs then just sit roughly central on the sofa with the setup mic and just press calibrate and away you go.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

IIRC, the 717 will have an older version of Audessey than the 709 does while being priced higher - most of the discussion I have seen concerning the 717 is "what are they thinking..."

I have an 809 - the reason I chose to go with it over the 709 was the HQV Vida video processing and Newegg was running a sale on it that pushed it down real close to the 709 price tag. As has been mentioned before, definitely check out A4L - they have great pricing and customer service.

Another speaker to consider is PSB. I was able to audition 3 different PSB speakers and was pleased with all 3. So, just to put a suggested system out there:

Onkyo 709 - $419 
SVS PC-12 NSD - $749 
PSB Image T6 towers - $1299
PSB Image B6 surrounds - $549

This would put you right about on your budget while getting all your components except for a 2nd sub. Also, the 709 would provide you with preouts should you ever decide to add outboard amplification later.


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

ALMFamily said:


> IIRC, the 717 will have an older version of Audessey than the 709 does while being priced higher - most of the discussion I have seen concerning the 717 is "what are they thinking..."
> 
> I have an 809 - the reason I chose to go with it over the 709 was the HQV Vida video processing and Newegg was running a sale on it that pushed it down real close to the 709 price tag. As has been mentioned before, definitely check out A4L - they have great pricing and customer service.
> 
> ...



I agree with Joe's suggestion with the PSB speakers, look at Saturday Audio and DMC-electronics, they have new and refurbished Image series, send an email to both asking for their best price on new and refurbished models that you are interested in (T6 and B6), they are willing to deal, I've had experience with both and are Authorized Dealers.........


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## hjones4841 (Jan 21, 2009)

Onkyo man said:


> If I had this kind of space to work with I would go for a bose speaker system


Sorry, but I don't agree. Bose is not a good buy except for their noise cancelling headphones. I have bought Bose speakers before (201s and 301s on sale at Sam's Club) and listened to the 901s several times. The 301s are relegated to the garage now.

Got mislead on a Bose wave radio. Went to a demo at a local motel. Funny, when I bought mine and set it up it did not sound the same as their "demo" model. Not even close on the bass response.

Just my two pennies...


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## needspeed52 (Aug 2, 2008)

hjones4841 said:


> Sorry, but I don't agree. Bose is not a good buy except for their noise cancelling headphones. I have bought Bose speakers before (201s and 301s on sale at Sam's Club) and listened to the 901s several times. The 301s are relegated to the garage now.
> 
> Got mislead on a Bose wave radio. Went to a demo at a local motel. Funny, when I bought mine and set it up it did not sound the same as their "demo" model. Not even close on the bass response.
> 
> Just my two pennies...


hj, that reply is worth much more than two pennies, your garage deserves better.....HSN sells literally thousands of Bose Wave Radios......go figure....more cents than brains.......


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## Bones81 (Jun 24, 2012)

Thanks for the advice, I'll definetely look into the PSBs. One thought on a center channel, I wonder if I could put one on some sort of little shelf or ottoman in front of the fireplace and then just stash it in a closet when I'm not using it. It wouldn't be the most aesthetic thing to look at but it would work. 99% of the time it's just me in the house, so I don't have to worry about a wife or girlfriend complaining that it doesn't look nice. In your opinions, is the 4.2 with the phantom center ok, or does a center make that much difference? 

I'm getting psyched on pulling the trigger on this stuff. I need to hide my credit card so I don't go out and impluse splurge on it all at once.


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## phreak (Aug 16, 2010)

Ideally you want the center channel at the same height as your mains. Using a removable center in a non-aesthetically pleasing position can work if you set the center in exactly the same place each time, and if you use only 2ch listening modes (stereo, direct, pure) when the center is not present. Your AVR can switch between 2.2 and 5.2 on the fly, but you would need to run Audyssey each time in order to switch between 5.2 and 4.2 No harm in trying it, but the 4.2 phantom center will be just as good with less hassle.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

phreak said:


> Ideally you want the center channel at the same height as your mains. Using a removable center in a non-aesthetically pleasing position can work if you set the center in exactly the same place each time, and if you use only 2ch listening modes (stereo, direct, pure) when the center is not present. Your AVR can switch between 2.2 and 5.2 on the fly, but you would need to run Audyssey each time in order to switch between 5.2 and 4.2 No harm in trying it, but the 4.2 phantom center will be just as good with less hassle.


Completely agree - nicely stated Phreak.


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## Bones81 (Jun 24, 2012)

Well if I don't really need it, then there is no point and going through the hassle of having to set it up and configure it every time. I guess now I'll start checking out prices. I love the fact that I can get a 809 for $600 from accesories4less. I'll probably pay the extra $ for the 3 or 5 year protection plan. I appreciate all the feedback, I think I'm pretty good for now on what to buy, now I just have to read up on how to set it all up to get the most out of it as well as what treatments might work for my funky space.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Let us know what you end up going with in the end and your impressions. Also, if you need any help setting things up, be sure to ask! :bigsmile:

Check out the Acoustics forum as well - Bryan from GIK has been a great help to me so far in my build process.


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## Bones81 (Jun 24, 2012)

Long time since I posted but decided to go with the Onkyo TX-NR818, PSB Image T6 Towers, PSB B6 bookshelves, and a SVS PC-12 NSD sub (maybe 2 eventually). Planning on ordering a factory refurbished Onkyo tomorrow and will add the others piece by piece over the next few months.


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## ALMFamily (Oct 19, 2011)

Excellent choices mate - let us know your impression when you get it all set up.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

Bones81 said:


> Long time since I posted but decided to go with the Onkyo TX-NR818, PSB Image T6 Towers, PSB B6 bookshelves, and a SVS PC-12 NSD sub (maybe 2 eventually). Planning on ordering a factory refurbished Onkyo tomorrow and will add the others piece by piece over the next few months.


Hello,
Absolutely fantastic choices. I really think you are going to absolutely love the HT that you have constructed. PSB and SVS both make truly excellent speakers that provide superb value. Coupled with having Audyssey XT32 and perhaps the finest video processing chip on the market with HQV Vida, you really are going to be able to get the most out of your equipment. I really look forward to reading your thoughts about the combo once it is put together.
All the best,
J


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## aurelius (Nov 25, 2012)

Just wondering whether you couldn't have placed the lot on the wall opposite to the bookshelf while mirroring the coach? It would have been a bit more awkward to view it from the kitchen (definitely more difficult cooking having to turn your back to the knob) but a lot better for acoustics and providing a wider/more open space. Not to mention the rears would have had perfect spots.

Don't forget to show us some photos of the setup once in position.


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## Bones81 (Jun 24, 2012)

Finally getting close to making actual purchases (beyond the Panasonic DMP-BDT220 blu-ray player I've bought). Wanted to see what your thoughts where on changing up the speakers to GoldenEar Triton Twos, SuperSat 50C, and SuperSat3 surrounds. Price wise, I think they're pretty close and the advantage of the Triton Twos is that I wouldn't have to get a separate sub(s) which is a nice space saver. Also, given the small height of the SuperSat 50C, it will fit on my mantle without blocking any of the screen and I could actually have a center channel. They've received pretty good reviews, so I wanted to see what people's thoughts were on them.


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## Bones81 (Jun 24, 2012)

So I went ahead with the GoldenEar Triton 2s given their good reviews and built in subs, picked them and the SuperSat 3 surrounds up this weekend. Held off on the center channel for now, although it would fit on the mantle, it's not at ear level and I'm not sure I need it anyway. I'm ordering the Onkyo TX-NR818 tonight along with its wireless USB plugin. 

My next challenge is now the wiring. Ideally, I'd like to run everything through the walls but given the fireplace, external walls and bookcase, I'm not sure if this can be done without costing a small fortune. I've looked into other alternatives like ghost wire (16 gauge) for the surround speakers, wiremold to hide other cables, and maybe a Belkin ScreenCast AV-4 Wireless AV-to-HDTV so I don't have to have an HDMI cable running up the side of my fireplace. 

I was wondering what you guys thought on the wiring situation. Below are the Triton 2s in the living room (I have just stood them up for now, will set them up properly once I get the Onkyo.


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## aurelius (Nov 25, 2012)

Good evening,

As I face a similar problem, I contemplated running the wires under the wooden floor. Is your floor made of real wood or is it a 'laminate parquet' ? For the later you could easily undo the boards next to the wall, run there the ghost/flat wire of your choice (maybe with some 'changes' to the padding layer) then put the boards back. 
Thank you for the ghost wire tip.


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## Bones81 (Jun 24, 2012)

Been awhile since I've given an update. Here is the current setup with the GoldenEar Triton Two Towers and SuperSat 3s (4.1 since I don't have a center channel). The current issue I'm having is that the way the room is setup, I have the surrounds right up against the couch which means I only really get surround sound if I sit in the corner of the sectional, which is usually fine since I live alone. 

I'm going to have a company come out and conceal the HDMI, coax, and speaker wires in the walls. The install guy suggested getting rid of the SuperSat 3s and going with Klipsch CDT-3650s in the ceiling (going with either 2 or 4, depending on the setup I want, 4.1 or 6.1). It's tempting since the speaker stands are kind of in the way and you would get a larger surround area beyond just the center of the couch. However, I know in general ceiling/wall speakers generally aren't as good normal speakers. 

As an alternative to ceiling speakers, I could move the right surround speaker back against the wall where the flags are, but I'm not sure what I could do with the left surround. The wall next to the stairs has the doorbell and a cutout for some sort of wiring, so I guess it could be possible to mount it up there, but then you'd have the surrounds at different heights. 

Any thoughts on a solution with my current setup, or go with the ceiling speakers for the surrounds.


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## RTS100x5 (Sep 12, 2009)

I have been selling this Polk in ceiling and have been very pleased with their performance / price point..

http://www.polkaudio.com/70rt/d/1066C2883

They have the same model with an upgraded tweeter but they start getting pricey ...

Hope you dont have any HDMI issues with your Onkyo as many others have reported.... If you have any questions about that just pm me....:wave:


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## chashint (Jan 12, 2011)

Considering the room you are working with (which is beautiful) in-ceiling or in-wall speakers are probably your best option.
The staircase wall near the doorbell (?) and the area by the window where the three stack of pictures is might work for in-wall.


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## willis7469 (Jan 31, 2014)

Agreed, the room is very inviting and beautiful. I'm also not a fan of ceiling or wall speakers (but I do have some Polk rc85's in a space). They might be the only choice. You have no WAF to contend with so maybe something like this?

http://www.omnimount.com/products/speaker_mounts/stainless_steel_series/20.0_c/


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## Bones81 (Jun 24, 2012)

Thanks, I think I'm going to mount the SuperSats on the walls by flag boxes and by the doorbell and have the in-ceiling Klipschs installed for rears to upgrade to a 6.2 system.


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