# Sub + speaker help :D



## Cornelius (Nov 27, 2010)

Hey :wave:. I just decided to go ahead and start putting together a HT setup. So far, I have only ordered a receiver (Yamaha RX-A700) and now I am trying to decide on a sub and speakers. 

It's for my bedroom which is about 13x10x8. In the start of this I would rather get some nice stuff and add surround speakers later. So for now, it's gonna be receiver + 2 front speakers + sub. It'll probably be enough anyways. 

For the sub I am trying to decide between the SVS PB10 ($499) and the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus ($549). I think the SVS has a 10% off sale right now too. I have found more people that like the SVS in the searching so far, but just curious for my room and uses specifically if that might not apply. It's probably close to equal on music listening to movie watching, but I really want it to sound good for music. Is there benefits to down firing vs. front firing? The room is carpeted. 

Speakers- I have no real idea what I want. So far a stereo shop showed me some Paradigm mini monitors that sounded nice but I am very open to suggestions on that.

I appreciate any help you may have, and I am open to checking out other brands 

Thanks,
Corey.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

You can't go wrong with the SVS and Paradigms. Both awesome companies.:T


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## Cornelius (Nov 27, 2010)

Quick response time, I like it . Do you think the mini monitors are more than enough? or should I check out some of the other speakers they have?


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Its all about size with speakers, big size equals big sound.

Thats not to say small speakers cant be good, because they can, but they can only do so much. Generally, good small speakers will be very clear but they relay totally on the sub for bass. Larger speakers hold their own and will have a warmer sound. I always say that if your into music, then small compact sat style speakers are a no go personally. I understand the desire for compact speakers that dont dominate though, so if small speakers are a must, there are plenty of options out there.


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## bambino (Feb 21, 2010)

Check out the Titon Monitor They will provide much more output then the Mini's, that is if your set on bookshelf style speakers.:T


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## Dale Rasco (Apr 11, 2009)

I have an LFM 1 EX and love the performance however; I've not heard the PB10. I will say that I've been doing some business with SVS lately and they are far superior in terms of customer service and the build quality is outstanding on speakers and an absolute pleasure to do business with.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Cornelius said:


> For the sub I am trying to decide between the SVS PB10 ($499) and the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus ($549). I think the SVS has a 10% off sale right now too. I have found more people that like the SVS in the searching so far, but just curious for my room and uses specifically if that might not apply. It's probably close to equal on music listening to movie watching, but I really want it to sound good for music. Is there benefits to down firing vs. front firing? The room is carpeted.


To a [usually negligible] extent, a downfiring woofer will have more distortion because of sag factor. It will however be less prone to pet/children damage. However these are totally different drivers being used, so for all we know, the forward firing driver has more natural distortion than the downward firing driver, so sag isn't the only factor in play.

In that price range my recommendation for a single sub is an Epik Legend  Especially in a smaller room like yours, I think a sealed subwoofer with otherwise deep extension will benefit. You'll get excellent sound quality, and you certainly won't be left wanting in output. The dual 12" woofers will also dig especially deep thanks to the room size. I think a ported sub may sound more awkward without equalization(just because of room interaction and that smaller ported subs often have high tunes IMO). Honestly though, I always would recommend 2 or 4 lesser subs to one top level sub. So a pair of Emotiva Ultra Sub 10s IMO will give you awesome overall sound quality and plenty of output. They too are sealed subs, The reason for getting two is that different radiation locations means less chance of experiencing room nodes... nulls resulting from standing waves. I really recommend considering it 




> Speakers- I have no real idea what I want. So far a stereo shop showed me some Paradigm mini monitors that sounded nice but I am very open to suggestions on that.


My audition of the Paradigm Mini-Monitor was that it was pretty mediocre, with barely any sense of imaging, a rough, unnatural midrange, and a slightly forward timbre... IMO on the overpriced side...paradigm may have some nice speakers in its lineup, but that ain't one of em... I honestly thought my $250/pr EMp Tek e5bis blew them out of the water in every department except bass extension(and possibly output, which you don't often test for during auditons), although it wasn't a proper A/B comparision, I do think no speaker should ever get outclassed by one half its price. My recommendations in the same price range include looking for (I hope I don't overwhelm you, but I think everything I'm about to post is excellent value)

Towers:
EMP e5Ti (I own its big sibling, the beautiful e55ti and it sounds excellent so I have little reason to believe this isn't)
Infinity Primus 362 (it may take some modifications... I'm not sure how you feel about messing with your stuff... but done right you can get supreme excellence)

Bookshelves:
Ascend Acoustics CMT-340 (get this and you won't be dissapointed... very musical, very clean, and with the MTM design it can play plenty loud... I recommend getting three though, two for the mains plus a matching center )
Behringer 2030p (More than just a bang-for-buck leader... it's just a flatout excellent speaker)
EMP e5Bi (I own these as my surrounds... they're wonderful)
Emotiva ERM-6.2(*I'd call yamaha and confirm the receiver's ability to handle a 4 ohm impedance)
Behringer 2031p (same as above, it's 4 ohms unlike the 2030p)
Mackie MR5(*I'd make sure the yamaha has pre-outs as this _is_ an active monitor)
Mackie MR8 (same as above)
Aperion Verus Grand Bookshelf (I don't even think it's out yet... just going on gut feeling that this will work nicely in an untreated room)
Usher S520 (If forward speakers are your thing, then this possibly is your thing. Very nice build quality and finish too... I think it would work best in a well treated room though)


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## JCD (Apr 20, 2006)

How big of a sub can you get? SVS subs are generally BIG, so you may want to check to make sure it'll fit in your bedroom. If you can swing it, I'd consider jumping up to the SVS SB12-NSD. It's on double sale right now with $100 off plus the 10% for being black friday weekend. Before the 10% off, the difference is only $50... but, again, assuming it'd fit, so worth IMO.

As for speakers, my go to speaker in the mid-fi area is the Usher S-520. At $399 delivered, it can not be beat. Again, IMO.

I've got a little deja vu -- I just gave the same advice to the last thread I posted to. I'm consistent if nothing else.


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## Cornelius (Nov 27, 2010)

Size isn't that big of a factor. I have a place where the pb10 will fit perfectly. It's more about performance. I'd really like to stay around $500-600 for the sub. Is the SB12 better than the PB10?? I've read nothing but good things about the pb10 for build quality, and sound. A couple of people were saying the outlaw was better. But like I said, I finally made a thread to make it more specific to my room. I've been told ported subs are better, wouldn't that make the pb10 better than the sb12??

and its probably music more than 50% of the time now that I think about it. Hip hop and jazz, and some other stuff called acid jazz


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Cornelius said:


> Size isn't that big of a factor. I have a place where the pb10 will fit perfectly. It's more about performance. I'd really like to stay around $500-600 for the sub. Is the SB12 better than the PB10?? I've read nothing but good things about the pb10 for build quality, and sound. A couple of people were saying the outlaw was better. But like I said, I finally made a thread to make it more specific to my room. I've been told ported subs are better, wouldn't that make the pb10 better than the sb12??


Ported and sealed, each has their advantages and disadvantages. Even in ported, there's different alignments which have their disadvantages and disadvantages. Even in sealed, there's different Q's which have their disadvantages and advantages.

End of the day, it's all specific to your application. IMO for your room size and budget, a pair of 10 or 12" sealed subs placed opposite and distant of one-another, like the Emotiva Ultra 10s, will give you great SQ and response. For another room with the same budget, a pair of ported subs may give better response. It's all about what's going on in-room at the end of the day.


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## Cornelius (Nov 27, 2010)

i really only have one place for a sub, so one bigger sub would be better than a pair of subs for right now.

How about the cylinders? PC12 NSD?


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

That's unfortunate, as you're pretty much guaranteed some standing waves causing deep bass nulls.

Anyways all the SVS subs are nice. You'll never find someone say they're not. For a single sub my recommendation in your price range however remains the Epik Legend.


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## Cornelius (Nov 27, 2010)

GranteedEV said:


> That's unfortunate, as you're pretty much guaranteed some standing waves causing deep bass nulls.
> 
> Anyways all the SVS subs are nice. You'll never find someone say they're not. For a single sub my recommendation in your price range however remains the Epik Legend.


lol. I do have a place where I can put a second sub. Is it _that_ necessary though? they would be across the room from each other. I would *rather* go for one though still, just would be easier and keep more open floor.


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

I definitely recommend it.

Google the advantages of two subs... i know audioholics has a nice article and many forums including this one have people explaining the improvement of two subs.... even two lesser subs vs one greater sub. Opposite placement will especially be ideal. The goal is to get two or more different sources of the same bass in a room. The emotivas i was recommending are rather small btw.


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## callas01 (Oct 24, 2010)

Cornelius said:


> Size isn't that big of a factor. I have a place where the pb10 will fit perfectly. It's more about performance. I'd really like to stay around $500-600 for the sub. Is the SB12 better than the PB10?? I've read nothing but good things about the pb10 for build quality, and sound. A couple of people were saying the outlaw was better. But like I said, I finally made a thread to make it more specific to my room. I've been told ported subs are better, wouldn't that make the pb10 better than the sb12??
> 
> and its probably music more than 50% of the time now that I think about it. Hip hop and jazz, and some other stuff called acid jazz


If you have a $500-600 budget on a sub then also look at Hsu Research and elemental Designs. the Hsu VTF2 MK3 or the eD A3-300 will be better then SVS PB10. Outlaw subs were also designed by Dr Hsu, FWIW. 2 STF-2 subs from Hsu would be awesome also.

I agree on the Paradigm Monitors... not a speaker i find that great. PSB, Monitor Audio, even B&Ws would be better. If you could up the budget, the Dynaudio DM2/6 for $900 would be sweat. There is also the DM Center that is $700. They are all small, but better then most bookshelfs I have heard in that price range.


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## Cornelius (Nov 27, 2010)

I would like to stay around $500 for the sub, and about $400 for the front left and right. For the sub, I think getting one for now and leaving the option of adding a second sub later would be the best route for me. Any of them do that better than the other?


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

JBL on wall speakers, L820: used on EBay. Under $350,great price, hard to find these under $480.
http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-L820-Speake...48?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item255f04479c

Subs:
In general, ported subs can be louder using less power, but frequency range not very flat. Sealed subs, flatter eq response, usually a more accurate sound to me.
I vote for using 2 subs to get equal amounts of bass over a bigger area. If you're always going to listen while in one place (sitting in bed), you could get away with one sub, but you would have to determine where to place that sub to get the best sound for that one listening area.

Placement of sub:
I know you say you already have a place for the sub, but if you want the best sound, you need to put it in it's proper place. One good method is to place the sub at the listening area and play demo material. Walk around the room and wherever the sub sounds best, that is where you place the sub.


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## callas01 (Oct 24, 2010)

Cornelius said:


> I would like to stay around $500 for the sub, and about $400 for the front left and right. For the sub, I think getting one for now and leaving the option of adding a second sub later would be the best route for me. Any of them do that better than the other?


If your looking at just one sub, then I too suggest the Epik Legend, for a single sub and its 2 woofer design it will be really good. Otherwise perhaps the eD A3-300. eD makes powerhouse subs. Of all the subs that Craigsub had reviewed and spent his time with, SVS, eD, and Hsu seemed to be on his list a lot. I think any of them will be great. But I do think for a single sub, that the Epik Legend or eD will maximise your dollar at $500 over the SVS PB10, and the Hsu would be about $600, so just over what you want to spend.

$400 for front L/Rs. Then look at the PSB B5s, Aperion, Axiom, Energy CB-20s, Monitor Audio BR2 or BX2.

Personally tho, I would rather flip that budget around some and get a nice $350-400 sub and then use about $600 for fronts.


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## Trick McKaha (Oct 7, 2009)

From my reading and experience, if you have two or more subs, placement is not very critical- you just strew them around. If you have only one sub, though, you are almost guaranteed that one bass note will predominate over the others, and if you turn the sub up much, that one bass frequency will overwhelm everything. So, one huge sub gets wasted because you can't turn it up as much as you could if you had two or more. People are going to four subs when they can. Add me to the list of people recommending two subs to start.


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## gdstupak (Jul 13, 2010)

Whether you use 1 or multiple subs, electronic equalization helps immensely. It can be eq software built into the sub, or it can be outboard eq's like I use.


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## Cornelius (Nov 27, 2010)

I think I'm gonna pick up the Epik Legend  

Unless anyone else wants to chime in at the last second lol


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## Cornelius (Nov 27, 2010)

Cornelius said:


> I think I'm gonna pick up the Epik Legend
> 
> Unless anyone else wants to chime in at the last second lol


ordered it.

Now for bookshelf speakers


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Cornelius said:


> ordered it.
> 
> Now for bookshelf speakers


congrats, be sure to tell us what you think of it 

now go order those Ascend CMT-340s LOL


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## Cornelius (Nov 27, 2010)

Hooked up the behringer 2030p's today, and the epik legend :hsd:


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## taoggniklat (Mar 30, 2010)

Which speakers did you end up getting?


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## Cornelius (Nov 27, 2010)

taoggniklat said:


> Which speakers did you end up getting?


2x Behringer 2030p for the front right/left.
1x Epik Legend

and I also hooked up the sub from the living room which is a dual 8" sealed MK sub 

My brain is turning to mush :dumbcrazy:


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## GranteedEV (Aug 8, 2010)

Congrats! The Epik Legend sure is a beast, isn't it?

I know you didn't spend that much time with the paradigms or the behringers but what are you initial thoughts?

Now pick up a Dayton EMM-6, Behringer B-5, or Cross-Spectrum Calibrated Behringer ECM8000 mic and do some measurements for us (...and yourself... flat bass response is going to give you a more realistic end result IMO)


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## Cornelius (Nov 27, 2010)

GranteedEV said:


> Congrats! The Epik Legend sure is a beast, isn't it?
> 
> I know you didn't spend that much time with the paradigms or the behringers but what are you initial thoughts?
> 
> Now pick up a Dayton EMM-6, Behringer B-5, or Cross-Spectrum Calibrated Behringer ECM8000 mic and do some measurements for us (...and yourself... flat bass response is going to give you a more realistic end result IMO)


I like the behringers better. The epik legend is awesome  clean and bassy. Only thing I would want more is (2x) legends or empires


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