# I would like your oppinion on these items.



## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

Even after reading tonyvdb's thread "Before buying any HTIB or Bose cube type systems read this" I would still like to ask for an opinion of this system.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Onkyo-AVX-280-5.1-Channel-Home-Theater-Receiver-Speaker-Package/14335656

vs 

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Onkyo-HT-S3300-5.1-Channel-Home-Theater-Receiver-Speaker-Package/14335653

Honestly I don't see any differences between the two AVR's in the previous two links 

vs combining this AVR and speaker package

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Onkyo-HT-RC230-5.1-Channel-Home-Theater-Surround-Receiver/14335655
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Onkyo-SKS-HT540-7.1-Channel-Home-Theater-Speaker-System/14335645


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

Your best bet is to get a receiver and speakers on your budget level. But if you insist on HTIB systems Onkyo is the best of the bunch.


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

> Your best bet is to get a receiver and speakers on your budget level. But if you insist on HTIB systems Onkyo is the best of the bunch.


I keep educating myself on this site. :T. I want to get at least a system with wood speaker cabinets and nice punchy bass.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

DaddyDan2Five said:


> I keep educating myself on this site. :T. I want to get at least a system with wood speaker cabinets and nice punchy bass.


nearly all speaker cabinets are veneered MDF. 

I'd start off with a used receiver and a pair of Behringer 2030p's and Dayton Sub 120 if you are on a budget. You will get far better sound from that than the Onkyo systems. You can always add the cheap speakers from parts express for surround duty since it's not critical.


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

> My behringer based $500 system is
> 
> Total Price 521.18(Standalone blu-ray player, Full home theater including a decent sub, good speakers and an HDMI repeating receiver)
> 
> ...


I'm looking into these recommendations that you made. I'm assuming the DN-3XA's are for front surrounds? If so could a second pair be used for rear surrounds?


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

DaddyDan2Five said:


> I'm looking into these recommendations that you made. I'm assuming the DN-3XA's are for front surrounds? If so could a second pair be used for rear surrounds?


There are side surrounds and rear surrounds. Front surrounds are a new presence height channel, but there are no mixes for them so I see not justification for adding them. 

Only use 7.1 if you have the proper setup for it. Ideally you'd have 3 feet or more from the back wall for rear surrounds.


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

> There are side surrounds and rear surrounds. Front surrounds are a new presence height channel, but there are no mixes for them so I see not justification for adding them.
> 
> Only use 7.1 if you have the proper setup for it. Ideally you'd have 3 feet or more from the back wall for rear surrounds.


Well that goes to show you what I know. In my current set up I have the FR and FL speakers firing directly at my seating area. Not that I think it makes much of a difference as it's just a very cheap HTIB that I've had for about 5 years.

I guess the better way the phrase my question would be: Can the DN-3XA'a be used RR and RL in a 5.1 setup?

Also can you explain what makes a good center channel, side surround, rear surround, sub with maybe some links to examples?


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

Onkyo TX-SR607 90 watts channel 7.2 Home Theater Receiver
http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...atts-channel-7.2-Home-Theater-Receiver/1.html

Center Channel
Behringer B2030P
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/321847-REG/Behringer_B2030P_B2030P_2_Way_Passive.html

Side and Rear surrounds
http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...Way-Bass-Reflex-Bookshelf-Speaker-Pair/1.html

Subwoofer
Dayton SUB-120 HT Series 12" 150 Watt Powered Subwoofer
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-635&AID=1457483&PID=2777698

Blu-Ray
Philips BDP5012/F7
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Philips-BDP5012-F7-Blu-Ray-Player/15055792

AVR 249.99
Speakers 343.94
Blu-Ray 98.00
_______________
$691.93

Now that does not include speaker wire or stands but bought a piece at a time I think this will give me what I'm looking for.


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## Jungle Jack (Jul 28, 2009)

That is an excellent Package for the Budget and will outpreform a Package Setup with ease.
Cheers,
JJ


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

DaddyDan2Five said:


> Onkyo TX-SR607 90 watts channel 7.2 Home Theater Receiver
> http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...atts-channel-7.2-Home-Theater-Receiver/1.html
> 
> Center Channel
> ...


I'm not seeing any front speakers. Are you getting the B2030p for fronts as well?


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

> I'm not seeing any front speakers. Are you getting the B2030p for fronts as well?


I'm not quite sure about a few things. In a 5.1 setup are there side or front surrounds? 

lsiberian said 


> There are side surrounds and rear surrounds. Front surrounds are a new presence height channel, but there are no mixes for them so I see not justification for adding them.


I thought that two speakers went on the left and right and two in the rear with a center channel for dialog and the sub for LFE. So do fronts add anything to a setup this cheap? Also I chose a 7.2 receiver so I could add a second sub in the future. Can I add a second powered sub to a 5.1 receiver? 

Quoting myself from a few comments up


> Well that goes to show you what I know. In my current set up I have the FR and FL speakers firing directly at my seating area. Not that I think it makes much of a difference as it's just a very cheap HTIB that I've had for about 5 years.
> 
> I guess the better way the phrase my question would be: Can the DN-3XA'a be used RR and RL in a 5.1 setup?
> 
> Also can you explain what makes a good center channel, side surround, rear surround, sub with maybe some links to examples?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Okay, typical 5.1 setup is Left, Center, and Right which are all placed as close to ear level as possible in the front of the room, and Surround/Side Left and Right which are usually 2-3 feet above earlevel to the sides of the listener. And then you have a subwoofer as well.

You can expand that to a 5.2 system by adding a 2nd subwoofer. A 7.2 system would mean adding either back speakers behind the listener, or front "presence" speakers at the front of the room several feet above the Left and Right speakers. 9.2 would be adding both.

I've included a picture from dolby. The surrounds are a little low in this picture.


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## lsiberian (Mar 24, 2009)

DaddyDan2Five said:


> I'm not quite sure about a few things. In a 5.1 setup are there side or front surrounds?
> 
> lsiberian said
> 
> ...


The left right channels aren't surrounds they are considered fronts. The front sound stage consists of the Left-Center-Right channels and is the most critical component in any audio setup for home theater. 

The surrounds are the side and rear speakers and can really be fulfilled by any speaker out there. They aren't critical because they don't play human voices very much. Are ears are the strictest on the human voice so getting that right is critical for good sound. 

The receiver is what makes the speakers work, but any receiver from a reliable brand like Onkyo will do the job well so don't worry about going to crazy on this part. 

The subwoofer is the last component added for home theater in most cases, but it isn't the cheapest either. A good sub takes any system to the next level. The Dayton Sub-120 is a reliable entry level model. You can put multiple subs on any receiver. Be sure to use the midwall placement method for dual subs and the corner or midwall for quad subs. Sean Olive(Harman expert) modeled all the possible setups and found these to be the most optimal placements. 

but if you are on a budget sticking to one sub may be better for you. Audio isn't the most important thing in life. Even a pair of behringers and the Onkyo 607/8 would be a great start. 

If you want to build up over time. Then start with the Onkyo and a pair of Infinity Primus 362s.


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

Are any of you familiar with the Fluance brand?


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## DougMac (Jan 24, 2008)

DaddyDan2Five said:


> Are any of you familiar with the Fluance brand?


They seem to be OK for what they are and for what they cost. General opinion is the Onkyo HTIB is better.

It wouldn't be fair to expect a set of speakers that cost $200 to perform like a set of speakers from Ascend or SVS or Polk or Infinity or PSB that cost $1,000+. They don't come anywhere close. Get the Onkyo HTIB if you can't afford more. If you can, a set of speakers from any of the above manufactuers will sound spectacular in comparison.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

DaddyDan2Five said:


> Are any of you familiar with the Fluance brand?


They were one of the early internet direct companies offering too-good-to-be-true pricing. For the money, at the time, they were decent. Frankly I think there was a lot of awe that they made sound at all considering the price. As I remember, the main critiques were think cabinets, cheap drivers, and rough fit and finish. Think bottom of the line polks that you'll see at fry's from time to time.

As mentioned, HTIB speakers will likely sound on par with these. Save your money for a future upgrade to speakers previously mentioned. Frankly, the Behringers aren't much more and are in a much different class.


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

> They were one of the early internet direct companies offering too-good-to-be-true pricing. For the money, at the time, they were decent. Frankly I think there was a lot of awe that they made sound at all considering the price. As I remember, the main critiques were think cabinets, cheap drivers, and rough fit and finish. Think bottom of the line polks that you'll see at fry's from time to time.
> 
> As mentioned, HTIB speakers will likely sound on par with these. Save your money for a future upgrade to speakers previously mentioned. Frankly, the Behringers aren't much more and are in a much different class.


Well then I think I will be going with an AVR, Blu-Ray and the Behringers to start and reuse my current HTIB fronts, sub and rears. Those things are terrible but I guess they should suffice for surround duty.


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

So how do I add a second subwoofer to a 5.1 or 7.1 receiver? I want to plan for future upgrades and knowing how that is done will help. I'm going to be shopping around and will most likely go with 7.2 receiver unless I find a deal on something else that can't be passed up.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

DaddyDan2Five said:


> Well then I think I will be going with an AVR, Blu-Ray and the Behringers to start and reuse my current HTIB fronts, sub and rears. Those things are terrible but I guess they should suffice for surround duty.


Just to be clear, you should buy 3 behringer b2030p (sold in pairs and singles) for your front Left/Right and center. Use 2 existed speakers for your side/surrounds, place to the immediate left and right of your listening position. I'd start with 5 speakers instead of 7 (with front highs or back surrounds). A properly setup 5.1 will sound better than a poorly setup 7.1 or 9.1. Frankly, a properly setup 7.1 or 9.1, in most instances, will sound only marginally better.

See the setup guide here for more info: http://www.dolby.com/consumer/setup/speaker-setup-guide/index.html


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

DaddyDan2Five said:


> So how do I add a second subwoofer to a 5.1 or 7.1 receiver? I want to plan for future upgrades and knowing how that is done will help. I'm going to be shopping around and will most likely go with 7.2 receiver unless I find a deal on something else that can't be passed up.


If you get a 7.2 receiver, you will run a separate RCA cable from each sub output (there should be 2). Just because you are getting a 7.2 receiver doesn't mean that the best setup for your room is a 7.2 setup, you may be best served with a 5.1. Having 2 subs means that you need a fairly symmetrical room with flexibility in sub placement, or 2 subs may sound worse than 1. Back surrounds, the extra 2 speakers in a 7.1 setup, is overkill in 90% of home applications, and there is very little 7.1 source material to support them.


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

I understand how you would hook up a second sub on a 5.2 or 7.2 receiver. What I'm curious about is how would you do that on a 5.1 or 7.1 receiver? 

lsiberian said:


> You can put multiple subs on any receiver.


Thanks for all the help and advice Marshall. I just subscribed to your podcast via the Zune Marketplace.

Where can I find the B3020P's sold as 1?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

DaddyDan2Five said:


> I understand how you would hook up a second sub on a 5.2 or 7.2 receiver. What I'm curious about is how whould you do that on a 5.1 or 7.1 receiver?
> 
> lsiberian said:
> 
> ...


Thanks, hopefully I'll have more episodes up to start the new year, at least that's my current goal. I just got the studio unpacked this past week, and have everything hooked up, but we're headed back to Iowa for the holidays and work is busy, so it's going to be a little while yet.

Singles here: http://www.guitarcenter.com/Behring...i1529407.gc?source=4WFRWXX&CAWELAID=589358648


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

Perhaps I could use a few of these in my couch and/or recliner to get that nice punch I desire. Not exactly butt kickers but with a lower end system they could add some dimension.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-388


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

DaddyDan2Five said:


> Perhaps I could use a few of these in my couch and/or recliner to get that nice punch I desire. Not exactly butt kickers but with a lower end system they could add some dimension.
> 
> http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-388


I've actually never experienced a commercial bass-shaker. Would love to hear from anyone who has tried one in a home theater environment.


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

Oh and thanks to lsiberian too. I really like that partsexpress site and I ordered a catalog. Marshall, I listened to the first episode of your podcast ad I have to commend you on the quality of the audio. So many other audio podcasts have horrendous audio quality. It seems that most video podcasts take the quality of their audio more seriously then the audio only ones.

The B3020P's have great reviews no matter where I read about them. However I've not noticed any HT setups that use a bookshelf as a center channel.

How about this for the center
http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...er-Channel-Speaker-Dark-Apple-New-Each/1.html

and I'm thinking about these KEF's for fronts because I would prefer having a grill has I have little kids.
http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...wo-Way-4-Bookshelf-Speakers-Pair-Black/1.html


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Ideally, you would have 3 identical speakers across the front. Bookshelves are rarely seen as a center for the following reasons:

1) They're not called "centers".
2) Bookshelves tend to be taller than wide, so it's difficult to fit them beneath a TV
3) Bookshelves are rarely sold in singles, and buy a pair to put one in storage seems silly.

If you do go with a "center" speaker, it should match your fronts, i.e. be the same brand and model series. The reason for this is timbre matching. Even speakers that you the exact same drivers can sound a little different when the cabinet sizes are different. If a sound pans from left to center, to right, these small differences turn the seemless pan into a timbre-shifting, jagged 3-step movement.

When you have different speakers from different manufacturers using different components, these problems multiply.

I have speakers from the JBL Studioii series in my HT. In the end, I traded the S-center for an S38 bookshelf (used as a center) because it better matched my S310 towers (I'd run 3 matching towers if I could, and will run 3 s38s if I can ever get a decent deal on another pair.). Even speakers designed to be used together sounded different enough that it was distracting for me.


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

The Onkyo TX-SR607 is 90watts per channel and the max power rating of the Onkyo DN-3XA's are 70watts. How would I keep from blowing those speakers.? I would also like to know it the DN-3XA's would work as mains? I am seriously considering getting the TX-SR607, a Dayton SUB-120 and two pairs of the DN-3XA's for mains then moving them to rears when I'm ready to buy more speakers.


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

More speaker damage comes from distortion than too much clean power. Those speaker will work fine with the AVR, and work fine as mains, as long as you like the sound. I personally haven't heard them.


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## iconrl (Jul 30, 2010)

DaddyDan2Five said:


> I understand how you would hook up a second sub on a 5.2 or 7.2 receiver. What I'm curious about is how whould you do that on a 5.1 or 7.1 receiver?


Something as simple as this will work.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10429&cs_id=1042904&p_id=7186&seq=1&format=2
It pretty much just splits the signal. I'm not sure how many times you could split it before you encounter significant signal loss.


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

> Something as simple as this will work.
> http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2
> It pretty much just splits the signal. I'm not sure how many times you could split it before you encounter significant signal loss.


I figured you could use a splitter. However would running two 150watt subs off a 90watt channel make any sense?




> More speaker damage comes from distortion than too much clean power. Those speaker will work fine with the AVR, and work fine as mains, as long as you like the sound. I personally haven't heard them.


I'm sure that they will be miles above what I'm listening to now. As I said they will be my temporary mains until I find something comparable to the B2030P's that have a grill. Also, is there any advantage in going with a THX certified AVR such as this:

http://www.accessories4less.com/mak...el-Home-Theater-Receiver-Like-Tx-sr608/1.html

vs the TX-SR607?

I do not want to upgrade my AVR for at least five years and I have zero interest in 3D.


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## iconrl (Jul 30, 2010)

DaddyDan2Five said:


> I figured you could use a splitter. However would running two 150watt subs off a 90watt channel make any sense?


The subwoofer out signal is NOT for powering the sub. It simply sends a very low power signal to the powered sub or external amp. Almost all subwoofers use an amp outside of the AVR.
You can however power two subs with one amp. Of course this depends on which amp and subs you use how well it will work.


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## DaddyDan2Five (Nov 11, 2010)

> The subwoofer out signal is NOT for powering the sub. It simply sends a very low power signal to the powered sub or external amp. Almost all subwoofers use an amp outside of the AVR.
> You can however power two subs with one amp. Of course this depends on which amp and subs you use how well it will work.


I checked out the Dayton sub 120 that I'm going to buy and it does have an amp. Of course I realize that the AVR is not powering the sub as it is a powered sub and not passive. Which leads to a new question. What exactly does the watt rating mean? Does it just apply to the other speakers rather than the sub?


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## eugovector (Sep 4, 2006)

Yes, the watt rating on an avr is Max power at a given frequency with a given number of channels driven below a given distortion threshhold.


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## iconrl (Jul 30, 2010)

Yes, it's for the mains, center, surrounds.


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