# Heavy sub decision...



## m-leon (Jan 4, 2010)

Hi, I am new here and would greatly appreciate your input and opinions on choosing a subwoofer for my system...

Recently I started updating/upgrading my system (got B&W 605 S2 for fronts, 602 S3 for rear and LCR6 S2 for center). Having bought also a refurbished Yamaha RX-V1800 now only the subwoofer is left to decide for and the sweet process of setup, testing and tuning will begin. Hence I am here...

The main use should be music (Jazz, Classics - mainly opera, occasional pop & rock), but it should also be capable of shaking the house :hsd: for the movies. The last one is probably not too difficult since the room is only about 2000 ft³ and the 605-s alone are already doing half of the job. 

The budget left after the recent expansion is modest, around 450 UK pounds. The goal (perhaps unachievable for the budget) I am trying to approximate is: 
get a sub that would seamlessly blend to the system and produce accurate low frequencies (for example the contrabass in jazz). For the lack of my terminological knowledge in the topic, I am forced to borrow perhaps a beaten up definition for my ideal subwoofer as:
one, the existence of which in the system should be only noticed after switching it off during the playback. The listening volumes I choose are quite modest, I enjoy a quiet but room filling levels that are only loud enough to create an appropriate soundstage. 

I would really appreciate all the input and opinions on the following choices I have for the moment, and any other suggestions if I am missing anything for the money:
1) BK Monolith
2) BK XXLS400
3) Paradigm DSP-3400 (400 pounds)
4) Paradigm ultracube (450 pounds)
5) B&W ASW 675

The sub tests on this site are a great help, and from the subs measured I have chosen the BK for my budget, but unfortunately the others in my list do not have measurements so I have no way of comparing...

Once again thanks for the warm welcome and your help in advance, 
nor


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

REL subwoofers are from the UK and are quite good performers. Not sure if there is one in your price range...


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## Jon Liu (May 21, 2007)

m-leon, I really would take a look at some of the offerings that SVSound puts out.

This one:

http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm

That will produce a great amount of bass and is within your budget. Not sure who the UK distributer is for SVS, but emailing them wouldn't hurt. They have several other subs within your budget, too.

Otherwise, another couple of great places to look are:

elementaldesigns.com
epiksubwoofers.com
hsuresearch.com

Hope this helps!


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## drdoan (Aug 30, 2006)

Welcome to the shack. Have fun. Dennis


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## m-leon (Jan 4, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestions! I do appreciate your input! 

From all I have read it seems the SVS in my price range are comparable to the Monolith, and it seems the latter shows less THD in the above 50 Hz musical range in measurements... Plus I live 50 minutes car travel away from BK, and need to look for a dealer that carried SVS... 

As for the REL, the ones that can beat the Monolith seem way to expensive for my budget, and the ones in Ilkka's measurements seem to have unconvincing THD levels. 

For the moment I should probably try to reduce the list I have... Any opinions that might help do that ? 

Thanks again for welcoming and help, 
nor:T


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## gperkins_1973 (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi there,

I have had the SVS subs and had a really good listen to a monolith in a good room and to be honest I wouldn't pay the extra £1000 for the PB13 after hearing it. The monolith is a fantastic sub and goes deep. It even handled the Pulse Scene fine. Its very musical too. If you get a monolith you will be really over joyed. I couldn't believe a £400 sub could sound as good as that.

cheers

Graham


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## dyohn (Apr 17, 2008)

Yes, if SVS is easily available in the UK you can't go wrong choosing one of their systems.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

m-leon said:


> Thanks for the suggestions! I do appreciate your input!
> 
> From all I have read it seems the SVS in my price range are comparable to the Monolith, and it seems the latter shows less THD in the above 50 Hz musical range in measurements... Plus I live 50 minutes car travel away from BK, and need to look for a dealer that carried SVS...
> 
> ...


The recent change in $/£ ratio means the BK models represent slightly more value for money than the comparatively priced SVS models. The cost of importing tips that balance, which is unfortunate in the £450 and under range. The Monolith is a very good performer and even considered by some to be close to the Ultra subs for musical ability. HT wise the SVS subs over the Monolith price range really are stella performers and amazing VFM and I cant recommend them enough against a Monolith. All the SVS subs really are very good though.

BK used to be OEM manufacturers for REL (and still do some work for them IIRC), so with a BK you basically get a comparable Rel sub for less money. The Rels capable of bettering a Monolith really will be out of your price range. From the list in your 1st post, considering your proximity to the BK office, only the BK are really going to give you the best from your budget.

With respect to the PBU's not being worth £1000 more than a Monolith, I would say its more of a compliment to the BK, no other sub £500 offering comes close to what it can do really or the SVS models for that matter. The SVS's are some of the best performance subs Ive heard. The UK distributor for SVS is here, you should give them a call and have a chat for anything SVS related, they are a good bunch of very helpful guys.

For the best VFM, I would look at BK and SVS. Fix your budget and find the BK and SVS models that use this max budget. Then work out which in your short list will be best for you. We can help with that.


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## m-leon (Jan 4, 2010)

Thank you very much indeed! I see it very clearly now. 

Since my budget is really limited to 450 range and my main orientation will be music, the Monolith seems to be the way to go (especially if it approaches the Ultras musically!)

Thus the new short list is (reluctantly missing out the SVS  )
1) BK Monolith
2) BK XXLS400

Now, bearing in mind the main use for music at medium and low volume levels, the last point I have left to clear my doubts about is the new (and perhaps less well known) BK XXLS400, since it has a 12" drive unit and a sealed cabinet, it is supposed to be more musical than the Monolith? 

Thanks again for all the help! 

Nor


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

There is still the SB12 from SVS at £495. It wont match the Monolith for out and out grunt, but will be comparable to the XLS 400. There arent any stocks in the UK at the minute though, apart from one ex demo gloss black one for the above special price. I can give you the details on how to obtain that at that price if your interested in adding it to your list.

The newer XLS400 uses the same driver as the monolith in a smaller sealed box. Personally I always find sealed subs sound better for music than ported ones. I find them more subtle and integration is better and smoother. There are those that disagree though, but thats my personal opinion, so much so I now run a sealed sub myself. The XLS 400 uses a bit more power than the Monolith to try account for sealed subs being less efficient than ported ones, and by all account BK pulled it off. The 400 wont go as deep as a Monolith, but should be slightly more musical - maybe. Its main selling point though is that is a fair bit smaller than the Monolith, so that may be a consideration.

As I said before, the SVS SB12 is also a sealed sub, and the SVS trend for excellent performance probably means the SB12 will probably go a bit deeper than the XLS 400, but it might be a little too clean sounding for your taste. Its only speculation though, as Ive only heard an SB12 briefly, and not heard the BK's personally. The views on the BK are based on the views of a long term Monolith owner I know very well, who also extensively tested it against the XLS400. I do know SVS well though so wouldnt discount them by any means.

I would choose between the BK XLS400, and the SVS SB12 personally with music the main concern. If the size isnt an issue and you dont go with the sealed view I do, the Monolith is a no brainer really performance wise and will still be excellent musically.


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## m-leon (Jan 4, 2010)

Hi and thank you very much again for the excellent guiding, really! 
Everything you say seems to pick all the bits and pieces of info I get from the net, packs them nicely into boxes and put them onto shelves  

First, the size of the Monolith is not an issue, but the musical advantage of the sealed version (universally agreed, even when speaking to BK guys on the phone) is a problem. 
Thus the only choice would be between the SVS SB12 and the XLS400. 

Several factors go fro the XLS400 
1) Cheaper new (even 90 pounds of the ex demo in the forum sale - thanks for the link btw!)
2) According to Ilkka's measurements, in the musical above 50HZ range, the monolith has a very similar THD to the SB12, and the XLS300 seems a bit better. Since 400 is better than the monolith and an upgrade to the 300, one can assume it might be better than the SB12 in that range. 
3) all the above and the kindness of the BK Elec, led me to asking for the XLS400 loaner to test drive! 
So probably next week i might pick up the XLS400 and have a test. If I feel the it is not powerful enough for my movies, I will then probably test the Monolith. 

Once again thanks,
all the best,
Nor


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

Sounds positive, and glad we could help :T, keep us posted on how proceedings go.

All the best


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## event horizon (Nov 12, 2009)

Hi, i'd seriously suggest if you can get a decent audition of the Paradigm DSP-3400 you do so. I took delivery of one yesterday & i'll be frank with you that i'm seriously impressed :T

I have built quite a lot of subs over the years, many bigger that this (though it's described as a large enclosure - in reality for the performance it's small) & this is the first commercial (reflex loaded - that i'd normally never consider) subwoofer that has done it for me! Deep, tight & very articulate bass (i'm used to sealed boxes with no overhang) & more power than you are ever likely to need. Quite astonishing really, i guess it's partly down to the DSP (digital Signal Processing).

Frequency response is flat to about 23Hz & below this it rolls off gently & i'd say it's approximately -3db in room at 19Hz. Below that it rolls off fairly rapidly, however there is no phase shift in the signal & i'd hazard a guess & say that this is again down to the DSP rather than a standard analogue high pass filter.

The thing almost seams to have some kind of built in (DSP) loudness control. Where you'd set the sub up normally at a decent volume level to possibly cover loud music or movies you'd expect some kind of weakening of the bass when listening at a much lower level. This isn't the case with this sub :yikes: The sub appears to keep a very good balance even when listening at less than 0.25 Watts to the main left & right speakers.

This is the only sub i have heard that accurately reproduces the 25Hz pulses on Orbital's album Insides (first track - The Girl With The Sun In Her Head).

It's a revelation. It'll play at stupendous volume levels, in fact i haven't found the things limit yet. If you don't listen at stupid levels it'll last you a lifetime. I was gobsmacked when i removed the grille from the enclosure - the 14" driver is of a serious quality with a 1" rubber roll surround, no cheap foam here.

I'm so happy with it i'm thinking of buying a second one :clap:

Do try to get a listen to one before making any decisions!

E2A:- i used a function generator to give me an accurate idea of the rolloff of the sub, it's strong to 19Hz in room. My room is 15' x 14' x 9' or 1890 cu ft...A similar figure to your own.


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

event horizon said:


> The thing almost seams to have some kind of built in (DSP) loudness control.


Does your amp or AVR have that built in, its a feature many have these days so it might not be the sub.


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## event horizon (Nov 12, 2009)

Moonfly said:


> Does your amp or AVR have that built in, its a feature many have these days so it might not be the sub.


No, i'm not using it connected to any form of HT system yet. Im feeding it from a pair of single ended class A crossovers that drive my left & right speakers. Obviously i'm using the LF output which is restricted to 110Hz. The sub is set to it's minimum frequency of 35Hz crossover so it integrates (as well as possible) with my front speakers. I'd be happier with 30Hz but beggars can't be choosers when lashing something together 

Odd as it may appear this sub keeps up appearances even at really low listening levels, it's still there & in harmony with the stereo speakers at lower than what i'd normally listen to. I deliberately tried this out & put music on when i wouldn't normally so kept the volume low.

You don't want too many distractions when reading a book  However it's kind of disconcerting to be all of a sudden hearing stuff you'd never expect to hear at low volume levels. I think if you look at reviews you'll find that others have mentioned the very same, this sub does the business at any volume level.

I can't explain it, hence my probable odd definition of some kind of "loudness" control built in.

I just wasn't expecting it, doesn't mean it's not welcome though as it just does bass that is on a par with the system at any volume level. Weird, but who am i to critisize when i'm enjoying it so much...

By the way.. System is as i'm listening now:-

Krell DT10 transport
Monarchy Audio DIP24/96 
Monarchy Audio 20 bit DAC
Classe Audio DR5

Forget cables as they don't make any difference :rofl2: ok 

Class A crossovers
Parasound 1206


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## Moonfly (Aug 1, 2008)

A classic case of what you like is what really matters. Its great to hear someone really enjoying their system :clap:, its what we should all aspire to :yes:


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## event horizon (Nov 12, 2009)

Moonfly said:


> A classic case of what you like is what really matters. Its great to hear someone really enjoying their system :clap:, its what we should all aspire to :yes:


Indeed  Thankyou!

You can bet your boots i'm enjoying it as i type  Bests to you for 2010.

Mark


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