# Any way to generate sound to center/surrounds?



## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

Just wondering if anyone has come up with a good way to send the calibration signal to non main L/R speakers? The most obvious example I could think of is to generate Dolby Digital (with per channel enable) and output via S/PDIF. Maybe there is a device driver I could use to accomplish this?

For various reasons I don't want to simply plug in each speaker as the left (or right) channel.

Thanks!


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

I don't quite understand what you are asking, can you clarify? Do you mean going to spdif so you can do a long run of digital coax to another room?


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## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

I just want to measure and calibrate my center and surround speakers without having to plug them in as main left or right channels?


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## Eric Walter (Jan 24, 2007)

Routing the L or R input channel to any output channel for measurement purposes should really be a feature of the AV processor. My AV32R DP has settings for this in the TMREQ setup menu. Is this unique or do other processors have this feature as well nowadays?
Eric


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## Wayne A. Pflughaupt (Apr 13, 2006)

kromkamp said:


> For various reasons I don't want to simply plug in each speaker as the left (or right) channel.


Unfortunately, that's your only option. Sorry.

Regards,
Wayne


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## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

Eric Walter said:


> Routing the L or R input channel to any output channel for measurement purposes should really be a feature of the AV processor. My AV32DP has settings for this in the TMREQ setup menu. Is this unique or do other processors have this feature as well nowadays?
> Eric


AFAIK that's pretty unique. Great feature for just this reason.

I'm going to play with AC3Filter tonight to see if I can steer the sine sweep to any channel through a Dolby digital encoded bitstream.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

kromkamp said:


> I just want to measure and calibrate my center and surround speakers without having to plug them in as main left or right channels?


Most modern AVRs and prepros offer a calibration tone which it routes, individually, to each channel. OTOH, if I am using an external signal source, route it into each one of the discrete MCH analog inputs in turn or I use a test disc with per channel signals.

What equipment are you using that does not support one of these methods?


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## fusseli (May 1, 2007)

He wants to send REW sweeps via encoded 5.1. No, I do not know of any way to do this other than switching them on the back of your receiver. Banana plugs are your friends...


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## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

Kal, my receiver (Yamaha RX-A2010) does have multi-channel input, but I am using the built in parametric eq in the receiver and it doesn't seem to operate on this input 

I could use the receiver built in pink noise but I find the sine sweep to be much more accurate. I could use a calibration DVD but hopefully I can get the REW tone generator to work - much easier and more flexible.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

kromkamp said:


> Kal, my receiver (Yamaha RX-A2010) does have multi-channel input, but I am using the built in parametric eq in the receiver and it doesn't seem to operate on this input
> 
> I could use the receiver built in pink noise but I find the sine sweep to be much more accurate. I could use a calibration DVD but hopefully I can get the REW tone generator to work - much easier and more flexible.


Understood. I faced the same problem when setting up the Rotel RSP-1572 and did it your way. It was a bit easier with a prepro.


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## Docwong (Feb 10, 2010)

I was thinking of using All Channel Stereo and disconnect the speakers which are not being measured.
Will this work?


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## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

I don't want to unplug any speakers because I have found that the frequency response changes a little bit when the unused speakers are disconnected. I think this is because my speakers are difficult 4 ohm loads.

I wasn't able to get AC3Filter to work last night but I'll try again tonight. I suppose I should be able to target the center channel at least by feeding the signal to both left and right and turning on pro-logic mode.


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## mppatt01 (Jan 15, 2012)

Docwong said:


> I was thinking of using All Channel Stereo and disconnect the speakers which are not being measured.
> Will this work?


This is what I've done, but sounds like it's not the direction you want to go. 

Can you hook up the center to the left(or right) channel and test it being fed by that channel?. Documenting the parameters and the editing the center channel settings and redoing the left (or right) channel as needed? .. obviously leaving the center in it's center location.

Edit; Nevermind, reread the first post where you said you don't want to do this. I not good with reading :/


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## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

Yeah  I mean, I have already done this, but because of the channel interaction I described above, I would prefer to have all speakers connected.

Also, writing down and copying the parametric EQ settings is a big chore, particularly when I start to EQ for multiple room locations and need to go back and forth.


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## nogauss (Nov 7, 2011)

I was able to use the hdmi output on my laptop


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## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

Kal, can you recommend a test disc with separate sine sweeps per channel? (20-20kHz). And how do I use Room EQ Wizard with an external test tone?


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## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

nogauss said:


> I was able to use the hdmi output on my laptop


Can you elaborate? You can send the REW test tone encoded as 5.1 dolby digital over the HDMI audio channels on your laptop? And you were able to steer the test tone to one channel at a time (again using the laptop)?


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## nogauss (Nov 7, 2011)

Yes, I was able to send the REW test tone to one channel at a time. I selected ASIO Driver and ASIO4ALL
then selected each channel id

1 - Left
2 - Right
3 - Center
4 - Sub
5 - Surround Left
6 - Surround Right

I think there are also channels ids 7 and 8

Depending on my receiver setting for speaker size "Full" vs "Small" I was able to measure the speakers with or without the sub.


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## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

Sounds perfect if the HDMI on my laptop supports audio - somehow I fear it does not, but I'll try it tonight.

Thanks!


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## NormanPCN (Jan 30, 2012)

I am outputting via HDMI from my nettop and I did not see any options for channel routing. Could be a driver specific feature that not all have.


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## nogauss (Nov 7, 2011)

I am using windows 7 and REW V5.01 Beta with ASIO Support.

Hope this helps.


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## Kal Rubinson (Aug 3, 2006)

kromkamp said:


> Kal, can you recommend a test disc with separate sine sweeps per channel? (20-20kHz). And how do I use Room EQ Wizard with an external test tone?


The only one I know of is http://www.gold-line.com/51atdvd.htm However, I suggested it before I realized you wanted to use REW. I cannot help you with that.


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## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

nogauss, some good news - I can get audio from hdmi on my laptop.

I downloaded ASIO4ALL and installed it, but I don't know where to select channel id? Firstly, did you see ASIO driver in the REW Preferences->soundcard->output device selector? Because I don't. I also don't see a channel of selector in the ASIO4ALL control panel.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks


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## nogauss (Nov 7, 2011)

kromkamp said:


> I downloaded ASIO4ALL and installed it, but I don't know where to select channel id? Firstly, did you see ASIO driver in the REW Preferences->soundcard->output device selector? Because I don't. I also don't see a channel of selector in the ASIO4ALL control panel.
> Thanks


Yes that is what I did. Is the receiver set to the right HDMI input? Is your laptop screen visible on the TV?
Try selecting in the preferences dialog change the Drivers to Java and then back to ASIO or connect and reconnect the HDMI cable. I do not currently see any entry in the ASIO control panel but I think I may have seen an entry in the ASIO control panel before.

FYI my receiver is a Pioneer VSX-31


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## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

Ah - just didn't have the latest version of REW. Now I can steer the audio to any channel I want. Success!

Except...

I cant get the M-Audio mic input to register in REW when I have it set to ASIO4ALL output :-( I can see the VU meter peaking in windows properties but not in REW. How can I select the inputs from a different sound device?

So close!


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## nogauss (Nov 7, 2011)

kromkamp said:


> Ah - just didn't have the latest version of REW. Now I can steer the audio to any channel I want. Success!
> 
> Except...
> 
> ...


Check the ASIO control panel to see if the M-Audio input is listed and enabled. If it is not listed try disconecting and reconecting the M-Audio.


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## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

Bingo! That was the problem. Its almost like you've done this before  Thanks for all your help, its one of those things that would have taken days to stumble through blind I think.

First calibration pass got me to here with L/C/R:










Now thats 1/3 octave smoothed of course, and only from one listening position. Now the fun begins...

Cheers


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## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

Interesting thing about that dip at 2.5khz shared by all speakers - the midrange crossover point on the speakers is at 2.2khz, so I'll bet that is speaker response. Maybe I'll do some near field testing to confirm


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## nogauss (Nov 7, 2011)

kromkamp said:


> Bingo! That was the problem. Its almost like you've done this before  Thanks for all your help, its one of those things that would have taken days to stumble through blind I think.
> 
> First calibration pass got me to here with L/C/R:
> 
> ...


The beta version or REW made it all possible. Like you I got the the Left and Right setup, but I sure didn't look forward to swapping speaker cable for the other channels.

Looks like you can shake the foundation with you rig. Do you have any measurements with the YPAO Flat vs Natural. I purchased the Pioneer before I found REW but now I think the Yamaha PEQ would be better.

Have you checked out Sean Olive's paper on the prefered response declining about 
10db from 20Hz to 20KHz
"https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B97zTRsdcJTfY2U4ODhiZmUtNDEyNC00ZDcyLWEzZTAtMGJiODQ1ZTUxMGQ4"

Cheers


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## kromkamp (Jan 12, 2012)

There's a room mode at around 22Hz in my room, that helps  but that is just my main tower speakers, no sub!

I briefly tried YPAO auto-calibrate, had one look at the filters it chose and how it looked in REW and realized its not anywhere near what doing it by hand can achieve. That's why I like the manual mode of Yamaha vs something like Audyssey where it's all or none auto mode.

Sad to say I'm a bit of a fan of the smiley face equalizer setting (a gentle boost of bass and high treble). But I'm not going to do to much with the top end until all my acoustic treatments are in. In the meantime this sounds 10X better than before.


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## dean70 (Jun 27, 2008)

what I have done is connect an RCA to the left channel and select mono mode on the receiver. This redirects the sound to the center channel only. 

BTW this is on an Integra 7.8 which has front panel L/R RCA inputs.


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## eddysoe (Mar 18, 2010)

Many surround processor has the option to change mode, for example my Yamaha AV Reciever has 7 Stereo mode which can be used to output Stereo LR signal to all speaker and measurement can be made in this mode by selecting which speaker to mute and unmute.


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## dcard (May 3, 2012)

First post....wow...great software!

Playing with my UMC-1 pre/pro, REW 5.01Beta9, MobilePre, Behr ecm8000 cross-spectrum

....and ASIO4All software.

Don't want to play the rca plug game, and want to check the native PCM>DAC path in pre/pro.

Can't seem to get the HDMI multichannel output AND the MobilePre Mic input going at same time.

In Windows-ControlPanel- Sounds, I have set HDMI as the default audio output, and on the mic tab, the MobilePre as default.

In REW, I have set "Java" and default for input and output.

I then can send audio from REW over HDMI to left and right speakers, and the Mic works.

If I enable ASIO instead of Java, choose ASIO4All and setup ASIO4All with the HDMI Output AND the MobilePre Inputs (advanced setup)..... I can get to all 8 channels over HDMI, but no love on the Mic input from the MobilePre.

In REW, all I have for input selection is "Not Connected, input1&2"

It looks like in earler post someone had this working....what could I be missing?

thx in advance.

p.s. seriously bumming out that I cannot hear above 13,500Hz (kids and dog can, for sure).....thx REW for making me pause on that purchase of new speakers!!!


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## EarlK (Jan 1, 2010)

> If I enable ASIO instead of Java, choose ASIO4All and setup ASIO4All with the HDMI Output AND the MobilePre Inputs (advanced setup)..... I can get to all 8 channels over HDMI, but no love on the Mic input from the MobilePre.


> Just for the sake of confirmation ( & affirmation ) ; ASIO4ALL *can* successfully combine SEPARATE WDM Drivers and therefore address/route audio to/from different audio devices ( all from within a single composite ASIO driver ) enabling one to use one soundcard for input while using another soundcard for output ( just as you are trying to implement ) . 

> IME though, sometimes the combined ASIO driver implementation is really flakey. 

> IOW, this "composite" ASIO driver is sometimes difficult to get working properly from within REW. 
> This is seemingly because the "Preferences" window lacks an *"Apply Changes" button*( for changing the choices of signal routing & driver types ) . 


> Getting ones preferred "I/O" selections to "take & hold", seemingly requires a "secret handshake" approach to opening & closing relevant windows within REW ( quitting & rebooting the program can help ) .

> Two windows "to open & close & open again" ( in an effort to "force an accept" onto REW of new parameter changes ,) are the "Levels" & "Signal Generator" windows ( for whatever reason ).

> Wish I had a "magic" sequence to offer / but the magic sequence always seems to change for me .

:sn:


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## dcard (May 3, 2012)

Great feedback.....although I have shutdown REW, re-opened, re-booted numerous times, along with switching back and forth from JAVA<>ASIO, what is important is that "IT IS POSSIBLE," and I will obsessively pursue this.

How about a third party application (like JRiver that gives lots of control over audio stream things like WASAPI and ASIO)? Perhaps I can force a system accept of the mixed soundcard config before loading REW. Will give it a try later in the day and report back.

thx again for encouragement.

Dave


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## dcard (May 3, 2012)

Update: Got it working.

Noticed that when in ASIO4All setup, the UMC-1 HDMI audio out was selected, and there was also a green right arrow next to the selected icon.

However, although the MobilePre mic input was selected, there was NO green right arrow next it.

Started off by clearing the UMC-1 HDMI audio output, and trying to just get that right arrow to appear on the MobilePre mic input. That worked. I was now able to get the Mic to work in REW on ASIO. Then I added the UMC-1 HDMI input in the ASIO4All setup, and was able to get everything working.

Had to play around and restart REW (along with ASIO<>JAVA back and forth) to get the output to work (with Sig Generator).


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## dcard (May 3, 2012)

More updates:

1) Have tried this with several PC's now. Had to disable onboard Realtek Audio Device on one of the PC's as ASIO4All kept automatically reverting to it. Had to go into Device Manager and completely disable it (and reboot) as just disabling it in the Control Panel- "Sound" didn't kill it.

2) Don't forget that even if you get HDMI audio output from your PC, the HDMI audio must support 8-channel MultiPCM in order to drive each and every channel independently. Older cards and onboard HDMI audio may only support 2-channel PCM (left and right channels), and Dolby/DTS lossly compressed 5.1 (which does nothing with REW).

These onboard HDMI solutions will not work (2-channel only):

AMD 760G/780G/785G/790GX/880G/890GX (iGPU)


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## THX-UltraII (Nov 19, 2008)

Docwong said:


> I was thinking of using All Channel Stereo and disconnect the speakers which are not being measured.
> Will this work?





mppatt01 said:


> This is what I've done, but sounds like it's not the direction you want to go


Why not use this method? Will this work 100% ok?


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## mabu (Mar 7, 2013)

As already said, the AV32R is able to route some L/R to any of L/R/C/SL/SR. But if it could not I would think about using the 5.1 bypass (if installed), which in the AV32R case is not AD-converted and not TMREQ normalized. Most other Receivers should have some 5.1 or 7.1 bypass today.


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